23001|22995|2010-04-08 16:18:02|edward|Re: Keel cooling - water strainer needed?|Hi Paul, I have put a strainer in my skeg cooling system. I expect there to be some slag in the coolant from when the skeg was welded and I did not want it to get in the pump. It is not easy to clean the system out. There is also the possibility of bits being dropped in in later life. Regards, Ted| 23002|22995|2010-04-08 18:29:02|brentswain38|Re: Keel cooling - water strainer needed?|That is why I leave the bottom off the skeg until every thing else is done and I've had the chance to bag the shit out of it to rattle every bit of slag out. Then I also us a strainer, which will then last forever. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > > Hi Paul, > > I have put a strainer in my skeg cooling system. I expect there to be some slag in the coolant from when the skeg was welded and I did not want it to get in the pump. It is not easy to clean the system out. There is also the possibility of bits being dropped in in later life. > > Regards, > > Ted > | 23003|22995|2010-04-09 06:07:04|edward|Re: Keel cooling - water strainer needed?|Yes I did that as well. I also put a 1" socket in the skeg top inside the hull so that I could feed a hose down to the bottom flush the skeg and then siphon the water out to remove as much crud as possible. I then screw a bung into the socket Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > That is why I leave the bottom off the skeg until every thing else is done and I've had the chance to bag the shit out of it to rattle every bit of slag out. Then I also us a strainer, which will then last forever. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Paul, > > > > I have put a strainer in my skeg cooling system. I expect there to be some slag in the coolant from when the skeg was welded and I did not want it to get in the pump. It is not easy to clean the system out. There is also the possibility of bits being dropped in in later life. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > | 23004|23004|2010-04-09 18:36:40|brentswain38|My emails|To email me , please use my hotmail address brentswain38@... I'm finding Yahoo to be such a pain in the ass that it's virtually unusable for long periods of time lately. Thanks Brent| 23005|23004|2010-04-09 19:00:48|David Frantz|Re: My emails|Hi Brent; I thought my last post about Yahoo was a onetime event but just this morning I had trouble again trying to bring up Yahoos main page from a local hot spot. I had time to check a couple of other sites which worked fine. So what ever is up with Yahoo, it seems to be wide spread. Let's just hope it is temporary technical issues. I'd hate to see yahoo kick the bucket. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 9, 2010, at 6:36 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > To email me , please use my hotmail address brentswain38@... > I'm finding Yahoo to be such a pain in the ass that it's virtually > unusable for long periods of time lately. > Thanks > Brent > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23006|23004|2010-04-09 19:12:11|lachica31|Re: My emails|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > To email me , please use my hotmail address brentswain38@... > I'm finding Yahoo to be such a pain in the ass that it's virtually unusable for long periods of time lately. Brent, I strongly suggest that you get yourself a Gmail account. I have been using Gmail for both personal accounts and also business (I am a Linux sys admin) reasons since Gmails day one and have had very few problems indeed. I am by no means a Google fanatic but search and email have definitely been some of there better products. Regards, Paul Thompson| 23007|23004|2010-04-09 19:27:10|theboilerflue|Re: My emails|Recently my mail provider (graffiti dot net) got bought out by some other larger internet company, owns mail dot com, before this I had no problems for oh.... all seven years I had it, lately it's been hell they deleted all my contacts, old emails, only allow so a couple of hundred emails in my "trash" were I used to store things in case I had to look at them again, they have a real shitty front end that doesn't even allow right clicking - "open in new tab" while reading my mail, seems they only want me to use one page to view my mail. real piss off. more adds and I'm bombarded by spam every once and a while (really, it comes in burst exclusively, it's weird) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > To email me , please use my hotmail address brentswain38@ > > I'm finding Yahoo to be such a pain in the ass that it's virtually unusable for long periods of time lately. > > Brent, > > I strongly suggest that you get yourself a Gmail account. I have been using Gmail for both personal accounts and also business (I am a Linux sys admin) reasons since Gmails day one and have had very few problems indeed. > > I am by no means a Google fanatic but search and email have definitely been some of there better products. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 23008|23004|2010-04-10 14:55:33|maxcamirand|Re: My emails|Hi Paul, Brent, I strongly echo the suggestion to get a gmail account. I have also been using gmail from its start, while maintaining my hotmail account. I have stopped using the hotmail account for anything other than receiving occasional mail from an old contact. The difference between the two products is strikingly to gmail's advantage. It's also fairly easy to set up a free gmail account using a domain name that you own (brent@...). Origamiboats.com appears to be registered by a domain name squatter, unfortunately. Regards, -Maxime --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > To email me , please use my hotmail address brentswain38@ > > I'm finding Yahoo to be such a pain in the ass that it's virtually unusable for long periods of time lately. > > Brent, > > I strongly suggest that you get yourself a Gmail account. I have been using Gmail for both personal accounts and also business (I am a Linux sys admin) reasons since Gmails day one and have had very few problems indeed. > > I am by no means a Google fanatic but search and email have definitely been some of there better products. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 23009|22962|2010-04-11 14:21:21|Bob Wills|Re: Nannidiesel|I had a Nanni diesel 28hp in my canel boat in France. It was the best engine I have ever had. Parts are availabe in a lot of places as it is just a kabuta tractor engine. --- On Wed, 4/7/10, James wrote: From: James Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Nannidiesel To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010, 3:19 AM   --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "akenai" wrote: > > > Anyone familar with this company? www.nannidiesel. com > > They have a diesel hybrid with a Kobota engine. > > Aaron > Professional Boatbuilder, Dec./Jan. 2010, has an article "Niche Diesels" that mentions Nanni. (www.proboat. com) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23010|23010|2010-04-11 14:37:47|Bob Wills|steel plating|I was wondering what the pros and cons of using cold roll plate or hot roll plate? The cost of cold roll is a little more but the materal is clean and requires less or not sand blasting.   I was quoted $.38 a pound for cold roll in 4000 lbs lot. That was in San Diego Ca. Has any one purchased steel as of late? What were the prices?   Before applying foam do you sand blast and prime then foam or just foam?   Thanks for input : Bob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23011|23010|2010-04-11 15:16:20|Gary H. Lucas|Re: steel plating|Bob, Cold roll is higher tensile strength due to work hardening during rolling, however it is NOT stiffer! Stiffness is a function of the modulus of elasticity, which is virtually the same for all grades of steel. It probably will be a little tougher to pull the hull together. Cold roll has no scale on it, it is delivered pickled (acid stripped) and oiled. So left bare it will rust very quickly. You need to be sure to clean all the oil off before painting. Sanding blasting give you tooth for the paint too, so you'll still want to do that, but it will be much easier with no scale. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Wills" To: Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 2:37 PM Subject: [origamiboats] steel plating I was wondering what the pros and cons of using cold roll plate or hot roll plate? The cost of cold roll is a little more but the materal is clean and requires less or not sand blasting. I was quoted $.38 a pound for cold roll in 4000 lbs lot. That was in San Diego Ca. Has any one purchased steel as of late? What were the prices? Before applying foam do you sand blast and prime then foam or just foam? Thanks for input : Bob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23012|23010|2010-04-11 16:36:38|Carl Anderson|sv-mom.com updated|Just to let some know that sv-mom.com has been updated a little. New links to some video that Steve (Silas Crosby) uploaded to YouTube. (In case you missed them) And a list of improvements that have been completed. later, Carl sv-mom.com| 23013|23010|2010-04-11 18:53:32|brentswain38|Re: steel plating|Could be a bit oily to work with . Wheelabraded and primed is clean.Is it available in 36 ft sheets? Wheeelabraded and primed you don't have to do anything with but wash and paint. Can't see the point in cold rolled. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Bob, > Cold roll is higher tensile strength due to work hardening during rolling, > however it is NOT stiffer! Stiffness is a function of the modulus of > elasticity, which is virtually the same for all grades of steel. It > probably will be a little tougher to pull the hull together. Cold roll has > no scale on it, it is delivered pickled (acid stripped) and oiled. So left > bare it will rust very quickly. You need to be sure to clean all the oil > off before painting. Sanding blasting give you tooth for the paint too, so > you'll still want to do that, but it will be much easier with no scale. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Wills" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 2:37 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] steel plating > > > I was wondering what the pros and cons of using cold roll plate or hot roll > plate? The cost of cold roll is a little more but the materal is clean and > requires less or not sand blasting. > > I was quoted $.38 a pound for cold roll in 4000 lbs lot. That was in San > Diego Ca. Has any one purchased steel as of late? What were the prices? > > Before applying foam do you sand blast and prime then foam or just foam? > > Thanks for input : Bob > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23014|23010|2010-04-11 20:44:13|David Frantz|Re: steel plating|Another problem with cold rolled is the built in stress. Depending upon methods used to shap an form you could end up battling sheets that want to bend or fold in their own way. The pros that frequent this forum may be able to give you a definitive answer but I'd be reluctant to go that route. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 11, 2010, at 6:53 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Could be a bit oily to work with . Wheelabraded and primed is > clean.Is it available in 36 ft sheets? Wheeelabraded and primed you > don't have to do anything with but wash and paint. Can't see the > point in cold rolled. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: >> >> Bob, >> Cold roll is higher tensile strength due to work hardening during >> rolling, >> however it is NOT stiffer! Stiffness is a function of the modulus of >> elasticity, which is virtually the same for all grades of steel. It >> probably will be a little tougher to pull the hull together. Cold >> roll has >> no scale on it, it is delivered pickled (acid stripped) and oiled. >> So left >> bare it will rust very quickly. You need to be sure to clean all >> the oil >> off before painting. Sanding blasting give you tooth for the paint >> too, so >> you'll still want to do that, but it will be much easier with no >> scale. >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bob Wills" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 2:37 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] steel plating >> >> >> I was wondering what the pros and cons of using cold roll plate or >> hot roll >> plate? The cost of cold roll is a little more but the materal is >> clean and >> requires less or not sand blasting. >> >> I was quoted $.38 a pound for cold roll in 4000 lbs lot. That was >> in San >> Diego Ca. Has any one purchased steel as of late? What were the >> prices? >> >> Before applying foam do you sand blast and prime then foam or just >> foam? >> >> Thanks for input : Bob >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23015|22979|2010-04-11 23:08:49|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|You could use a fan to remove the heat via a duct to the cockpit, but the engine is consuming large volumes of air, and therefore, is an air pump itself. I provided an air intake to the engine bay via the cockpit combings. The fresh air intake drops the air in the bilge area under my transmission. The engine draws air from near the top of the engine bay, where the heat accumulates and the fresh cool air from the combings intake cools the engine bay. Seems to be effective and pretty much guarantees the engine won't ingest any water. Time will tell if this scheme is a good one. Gord ----- Original Message ----- From: martin demers  Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010 11:31 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Gord, > I am happy to see it can be done that way, because the Bowman > heat exchanger is almost $1000.00 plus the trouble of finding > parts for it later on. I have a VW 1.9l TD in my VW camper, I > installed it myself, they are easy and cheap to  rebuilt . > I think it is the cheaper way  to get more HP from a diesel > in a boat. If I use the a 1.9l less the turbo , I should get > around 60 to 65 Hp, more than enough! > Couldn't you instal a little 12 volts fan to move the air of the > engine bay? > Also, do you only need the VW water pump or do you need another > one to move the antifreeze liquid? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gschnell@... > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:03:27 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > >   > > >     >       >       >       Martin > > Gord here....I have a VW 1.6L in my BS40. I'm running dry > exhaust without the heat exchanger manifold. It runs well that > way, but you do accumulate more heat in the engine bay. I have > sleeved the entire exhaust (less the actual manifold) with a > fiberglass "sleeve" of 1.5" thickness. The insulation is covered > with a foil heat shield. This material is available thru the > construction industry and is used for heating/cooling systems in > commercial buildings. The system was installed prior to foam > insulation application and is almost entirely "buried" under the > foam. Very quiet!! > > Gord > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: mdemers2005@... > > Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010 2:44 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > There was many posting  before on dry exhaust and also Vw > > > engines in sailboats. I would like to know if there is anyone > > > using the VW engine with a dry exhaust. > > > I want to know if in this configuration  you keep the > heat > > > exchanger manifold or if you use the VW exhaust manifold as on > a > > > VW car? > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > >     >      > >     >     > > > > > > >                                                  > _________________________________________________________________ > Obtenez la version mobile de Messenger ici > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724473 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   > origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message > to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23016|22979|2010-04-12 02:02:29|ric|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|A common figure of lore was the engine needs 3 times it's consumption flowing over it to prevent long term ambient rise in engine temp. However; I have done what you describe and got away with it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > > You could use a fan to remove the heat via a duct to the cockpit, but the engine is consuming large volumes of air, and therefore, is an air pump itself. I provided an air intake to the engine bay via the cockpit combings. The fresh air intake drops the air in the bilge area under my transmission. The engine draws air from near the top of the engine bay, where the heat accumulates and the fresh cool air from the combings intake cools the engine bay. Seems to be effective and pretty much guarantees the engine won't ingest any water. > Time will tell if this scheme is a good one. > Gord | 23017|23017|2010-04-12 13:27:46|ANDREW AIREY|Steel Plate|Talking to my welding guru the other day(about replacing the wooden top on a narrowboat using either 3 or 4mm plate)and he said don't use cold rolled cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 23018|22648|2010-04-12 13:49:40|Carl Volkwein|Re: tropo|Wired up as 12 volt or hooked up end to end? carlvolkwein --- On Mon, 3/1/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: From: tropical_breeze52 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: tropo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 1:56 AM   Hi Brent You could just use a few batteriers wired up together that works I had a friend has a special car full of batteries layed out all over the floor with out seats when he needed to weld. DC welding via the batteries works well if you have enough of them I once had an old work mate I(italian ) called Gino He used to pop big rocks in a mine I worked in when I had a very rusty nut Id get Gino to pop it with some jelly(TNT) better than hoseless cutting torch Cheers Hg02 --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. > Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "ric" wrote: > > > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > > > Just my opinion > > > > > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > > becoem a better user also from more use > > > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > > all Im saying here. > > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > > incredible . > > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > > not to do it again. well hoefully > > Hg > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23019|22648|2010-04-12 14:15:40|Matt Malone|Re: tropo|When welding, with 1/8" rod, I found my welder was outputting 35 V, so I would start with 3x 12 Volt batteries in series of identical type, and charge level. If one hooks a bus battery in series with a car battery, and a little lawn tractor to get 36V, one will have 36V for only a very short time, then the bus and car battery will keep going after the lawn tractor battery goes to zero, and the lawn tractor battery can actually be charged in reverse. Similarly, after the car battery reaches zero the bus battery could charge the car battery in reverse also. So it is important to have identical batteries in series for welding. One also needs sustained amperage capacity without heating. If I did not have three 12 V bus batteries capable of 100A output continuously without significant heating, and had only little car batteries, I might have 2 or 4 banks of 3 batteries connected to a common main by a very high current diode -- to prevent one bank from feeding into the others. The banks of batteries might be different sized, so long as the 3 batteries in each bank were the same as each other. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: carlvolkwein@... Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:49:11 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: tropo Wired up as 12 volt or hooked up end to end? carlvolkwein --- On Mon, 3/1/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: From: tropical_breeze52 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: tropo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 1:56 AM Hi Brent You could just use a few batteriers wired up together that works I had a friend has a special car full of batteries layed out all over the floor with out seats when he needed to weld. DC welding via the batteries works well if you have enough of them I once had an old work mate I(italian ) called Gino He used to pop big rocks in a mine I worked in when I had a very rusty nut Id get Gino to pop it with some jelly(TNT) better than hoseless cutting torch Cheers Hg02 --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. > Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "ric" wrote: > > > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > > > Just my opinion > > > > > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > > becoem a better user also from more use > > > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > > all Im saying here. > > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > > incredible . > > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > > not to do it again. well hoefully > > Hg > > > _________________________________________________________________ Got a phone? Get Hotmail & Messenger for mobile! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724464 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23020|23020|2010-04-12 14:46:52|joeearsley|New Picture Posted|I've been away awhile but I'm back with a picture of our new boat built by Evan Shaler. SV Sherpa was launched July 6th in Sydney. I've made an album and her picture is there. Cheers, joe| 23021|22648|2010-04-12 14:54:43|Ben Okopnik|Re: tropo|On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:49:11AM -0700, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Wired up as 12 volt or hooked up end to end? As I recall, some guy on instructables.com (I _love_ that site, by the way) actually experimented with this, and recorded the details. One battery won't do it; two will sorta work, when fully charged and with very light rod; three works a treat, for long enough to do a decent-length welding project. I've also read another account elsewhere - guys running Jeeps in the desert, one of them breaks some relatively large piece, two batteries don't work to weld it, three work fine. A Swiss cruiser that I got to be friends with in the Caribbean told me about this one, and I just had to try it out (my curiosity will kill me yet...) He needed to solder a wire at some point (I don't recall why), so he opened up a D-cell battery and took the graphite "pencil" out of it, then hooked a positive jumper lead from his 12v system to the metal and used the pencil, clamped in the negative lead, as the stinger. My wife is a jeweler, and I thought she'd appreciate having a fine-tip welder on board, so I hooked this up. It works OK; too dirty for jewelry work, but just fine for small-scale welding. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23022|22979|2010-04-12 15:10:34|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Time will tell. I am monitoring the engine temp, the skeg temp (top) and the engine bay temp.. Hoping to get indications to trouble prior to damage. Gord ----- Original Message ----- From: ric  Date: Monday, April 12, 2010 18:02 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > A common figure of lore was the engine needs 3 times it's > consumption flowing over it to prevent long term ambient rise in > engine temp. > > However; I have done what you describe and got away with it. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, GORDON SCHNELL  > wrote: > > > > You could use a fan to remove the heat via a duct to the > cockpit, but the engine is consuming large volumes of air, and > therefore, is an air pump itself. I provided an air intake to > the engine bay via the cockpit combings. The fresh air intake > drops the air in the bilge area under my transmission. The > engine draws air from near the top of the engine bay, where the > heat accumulates and the fresh cool air from the combings intake > cools the engine bay. Seems to be effective and pretty much > guarantees the engine won't ingest any water. > > Time will tell if this scheme is a good one. > > Gord > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23023|22648|2010-04-12 15:41:19|Matt Malone|Re: tropo|I can confirm that that a graphite rod and 6-18 Volts is great for soldering wire connections. I used a very old model train transformer and I believe it was lead from really old-style ddrafting mechanical pencils, about 1mm in diameter, but it could have been the center electrode from a "heavy duty", non-alkaline battery (I know I took those apart as a kid too). Using graphite to solder smells bad too. The graphite gets red hot near the contact at the end and burns away reasonably slowly. I recall re-sharpening the tip to maintain it. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:53:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: tropo On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:49:11AM -0700, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Wired up as 12 volt or hooked up end to end? As I recall, some guy on instructables.com (I _love_ that site, by the way) actually experimented with this, and recorded the details. One battery won't do it; two will sorta work, when fully charged and with very light rod; three works a treat, for long enough to do a decent-length welding project. I've also read another account elsewhere - guys running Jeeps in the desert, one of them breaks some relatively large piece, two batteries don't work to weld it, three work fine. A Swiss cruiser that I got to be friends with in the Caribbean told me about this one, and I just had to try it out (my curiosity will kill me yet...) He needed to solder a wire at some point (I don't recall why), so he opened up a D-cell battery and took the graphite "pencil" out of it, then hooked a positive jumper lead from his 12v system to the metal and used the pencil, clamped in the negative lead, as the stinger. My wife is a jeweler, and I thought she'd appreciate having a fine-tip welder on board, so I hooked this up. It works OK; too dirty for jewelry work, but just fine for small-scale welding. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com _________________________________________________________________ Got a phone? Get Hotmail & Messenger for mobile! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724464 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23024|22979|2010-04-12 15:53:12|brentswain38|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|I always put a six inch vent in the foreward and of the cockpit and put a 12 v fan in that vent. Then I put a piece of plywood behind the top step, below which is the engine room. This fan is connected tot he starter switch so the fan is running as long as the engine is running. The lid over this vent hinges from the top, so propped at a 45degree angle , it directs the hot air down to the cockpit sole. Works well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > > You could use a fan to remove the heat via a duct to the cockpit, but the engine is consuming large volumes of air, and therefore, is an air pump itself. I provided an air intake to the engine bay via the cockpit combings. The fresh air intake drops the air in the bilge area under my transmission. The engine draws air from near the top of the engine bay, where the heat accumulates and the fresh cool air from the combings intake cools the engine bay. Seems to be effective and pretty much guarantees the engine won't ingest any water. > Time will tell if this scheme is a good one. > Gord > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: martin demers  > Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010 11:31 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Gord, > > I am happy to see it can be done that way, because the Bowman > > heat exchanger is almost $1000.00 plus the trouble of finding > > parts for it later on. I have a VW 1.9l TD in my VW camper, I > > installed it myself, they are easy and cheap to  rebuilt . > > I think it is the cheaper way  to get more HP from a diesel > > in a boat. If I use the a 1.9l less the turbo , I should get > > around 60 to 65 Hp, more than enough! > > Couldn't you instal a little 12 volts fan to move the air of the > > engine bay? > > Also, do you only need the VW water pump or do you need another > > one to move the antifreeze liquid? > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: gschnell@... > > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:03:27 +1200 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > >   > > > > > >     > >       > >       > >       Martin > > > > Gord here....I have a VW 1.6L in my BS40. I'm running dry > > exhaust without the heat exchanger manifold. It runs well that > > way, but you do accumulate more heat in the engine bay. I have > > sleeved the entire exhaust (less the actual manifold) with a > > fiberglass "sleeve" of 1.5" thickness. The insulation is covered > > with a foil heat shield. This material is available thru the > > construction industry and is used for heating/cooling systems in > > commercial buildings. The system was installed prior to foam > > insulation application and is almost entirely "buried" under the > > foam. Very quiet!! > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010 2:44 > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > There was many posting  before on dry exhaust and also Vw > > > > > engines in sailboats. I would like to know if there is anyone > > > > > using the VW engine with a dry exhaust. > > > > > I want to know if in this configuration  you keep the > > heat > > > > > exchanger manifold or if you use the VW exhaust manifold as on > > a > > > > > VW car? > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > >     > >      > > > >     > >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > >                                                  > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Obtenez la version mobile de Messenger ici > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724473 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   > > origamiboats@... Unsubscribe, send a blank message > > to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23025|22648|2010-04-12 15:56:25|brentswain38|Re: tropo|Love my engine driven alternator welder. Makes battery welding redundant, altho its important to know all the options. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:49:11AM -0700, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Wired up as 12 volt or hooked up end to end? > > As I recall, some guy on instructables.com (I _love_ that site, by the > way) actually experimented with this, and recorded the details. One > battery won't do it; two will sorta work, when fully charged and with > very light rod; three works a treat, for long enough to do a > decent-length welding project. I've also read another account elsewhere > - guys running Jeeps in the desert, one of them breaks some relatively > large piece, two batteries don't work to weld it, three work fine. > > A Swiss cruiser that I got to be friends with in the Caribbean told me > about this one, and I just had to try it out (my curiosity will kill me > yet...) He needed to solder a wire at some point (I don't recall why), > so he opened up a D-cell battery and took the graphite "pencil" out of > it, then hooked a positive jumper lead from his 12v system to the metal > and used the pencil, clamped in the negative lead, as the stinger. > > My wife is a jeweler, and I thought she'd appreciate having a fine-tip > welder on board, so I hooked this up. It works OK; too dirty for jewelry > work, but just fine for small-scale welding. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23026|23020|2010-04-12 16:04:55|brentswain38|Re: New Picture Posted|Looks good . Missing the stainless nose cone to protect the bow from anchor dings. What she cost you so far? How was the trip north? What is the other boat? An Alaskan built one? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > I've been away awhile but I'm back with a picture of our new boat built by Evan Shaler. SV Sherpa was launched July 6th in Sydney. I've made an album and her picture is there. > > Cheers, > joe > | 23027|22648|2010-04-12 16:20:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: tropo|On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 03:41:13PM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > I can confirm that that a graphite rod and 6-18 Volts is great for > soldering wire connections. I used a very old model train transformer > and I believe it was lead from really old-style ddrafting mechanical > pencils, about 1mm in diameter, but it could have been the center > electrode from a "heavy duty", non-alkaline battery (I know I took > those apart as a kid too). Using graphite to solder smells bad too. > The graphite gets red hot near the contact at the end and burns away > reasonably slowly. I recall re-sharpening the tip to maintain it. [laugh] Yeah, I got to learn all of that on my own hide. If you're careful and don't push, it actually stays sharp for a good while (I expected it to crumble with the slightest pressure.) Also, the bad smell goes away after the first couple of times of getting it hot. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23028|23028|2010-04-12 16:23:08|kingsknight4life|3/8 rigging wire|Is there any noticeable difference between using 5/16 or 3/8 galv. 1x7 wire? Obviously it is stronger but the weight aloft should be negligible? The reason I ask is I can get a good deal on some 3/8" wire. Rowland BTW nice looking boat Joe, I think the paint job rocks!!| 23029|23020|2010-04-12 17:41:47|Aaron Williams|Re: New Picture Posted|Brent Yes the other boat is in Kenai, Alaska. Aaron --- On Mon, 4/12/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New Picture Posted To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, April 12, 2010, 12:03 PM   Looks good . Missing the stainless nose cone to protect the bow from anchor dings. What she cost you so far? How was the trip north? What is the other boat? An Alaskan built one? --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > I've been away awhile but I'm back with a picture of our new boat built by Evan Shaler. SV Sherpa was launched July 6th in Sydney. I've made an album and her picture is there. > > Cheers, > joe > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23030|3207|2010-04-13 06:38:41|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|Re: Stability|I would have tought that after a certain time in a knock down position, water would start to enter somewhere in a sailboat (companion way, heater chemney...). 6 hours seems a very long time, Martin. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > Here is an anecdote to make you think. > > 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since then. > There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. > > He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. > > They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. > > Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. > > That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable with enough inappropriate tophamper. > > Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough passage. What a hassle. > > As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very interesting to me. > | 23031|23031|2010-04-13 07:28:49|ANDREW AIREY|VW engine and dry exhaust|Possible daft suggestion but if using an Airhead type toilet might it work to take the air intake to the engine(not the engine compartment) via the toilet and thus improving the drying action of the toilet.Possibly useful on inland waterways where sewage disposal is regulated but facilities not provided i.e allegedly much of Europe cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 23032|23031|2010-04-13 10:34:11|Mark Hamill|VW engine and dry exhaust|Routing the engine to use the air from the toilet might be a problem with ones bottom forming an airtight seal that could possibly cause ones nether regions to be sucked down the pipe and stalling the engine not to say ones sex life and the trip. ;) But I have (seriously!!) often thought that routing the engine water through tubes on the bottom and sides of the airhead might be a good idea to help with composting in the winter especially. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23033|23031|2010-04-13 10:47:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: VW engine and dry exhaust|On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 07:34:02AM -0700, Mark Hamill wrote: > Routing the engine to use the air from the toilet might be a problem > with ones bottom forming an airtight seal that could possibly cause > ones nether regions to be sucked down the pipe and stalling the engine > not to say ones sex life and the trip. ;) And mis-routing it would cause quite an "exciting" fountain. :) > But I have (seriously!!) often thought that routing the engine water > through tubes on the bottom and sides of the airhead might be a good > idea to help with composting in the winter especially. MarkH So-called 'composting' heads don't actually compost anything; as I recall, according to the Humanure Manual (great book on the subject, by the way), actual composting takes about two years. They do, however, separate the liquids and the solids, which prevents most of the smell - and a tiny fan takes care of the rest. So, adding a heater isn't going to do much - except maybe "cook" the solids and make evaporation faster... not really what you want. By the way, regarding emptying out the head: the advice I got from one of the Nature's Head people was to just scoop most of the solids out of the compartment and dump those (instead of doing a whole disassemble/empty out/wash/reinstall cycle), then add more peat. As a result, the monthly dump-out now takes me about five to ten minutes instead of more than an hour, and is a lot more pleasant overall. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23034|23031|2010-04-13 11:13:34|Matt Malone|Re: VW engine and dry exhaust|I disagree Ben. With an appropriate mix of bacteria, and an active reactor, composting can be quite rapid, 2 weeks maybe at the most from brown puree (thanks to the impeller pump) to clear water. I have seen a system in operation that takes the effluent from 2-3 people and a residential toilet and sink in a 200 liter reactor, and turns it into odourless, nearly crystal clear water. I am told with a little filtration, it is suitable for drinking, at least more so than Lake Ontario. Though I am not saying you are allowed to, I see no harm releasing the outflow water into Lake Ontario. Even at only 6 liters a flush that is 33 flushes. That is at maximum stinginess in flushing, one month from flush to output. And I know that toilet got flushed far more frequently than that. I know the system did flush through in-organics and strained those out in a sand filter. As a biological reactor, it seems that elevating the temperature to the optimum for bacterial growth would accelerate the reactor. It seems that the motion of the boat, and use of mechanisms in the reactor might lead to some stirring without energy input. Like the ball in the bottom of a spray paint can. The 2 year figure might be if it is left to sit in a bucket, anerobically. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:47:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:VW engine and dry exhaust On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 07:34:02AM -0700, Mark Hamill wrote: > Routing the engine to use the air from the toilet might be a problem > with ones bottom forming an airtight seal that could possibly cause > ones nether regions to be sucked down the pipe and stalling the engine > not to say ones sex life and the trip. ;) And mis-routing it would cause quite an "exciting" fountain. :) > But I have (seriously!!) often thought that routing the engine water > through tubes on the bottom and sides of the airhead might be a good > idea to help with composting in the winter especially. MarkH So-called 'composting' heads don't actually compost anything; as I recall, according to the Humanure Manual (great book on the subject, by the way), actual composting takes about two years. They do, however, separate the liquids and the solids, which prevents most of the smell - and a tiny fan takes care of the rest. So, adding a heater isn't going to do much - except maybe "cook" the solids and make evaporation faster... not really what you want. By the way, regarding emptying out the head: the advice I got from one of the Nature's Head people was to just scoop most of the solids out of the compartment and dump those (instead of doing a whole disassemble/empty out/wash/reinstall cycle), then add more peat. As a result, the monthly dump-out now takes me about five to ten minutes instead of more than an hour, and is a lot more pleasant overall. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com _________________________________________________________________ Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23035|23031|2010-04-13 11:35:45|Mark Hamill|Re: VW engine and dry exhaust|Matt: Check out the Humanure site--very interesting. http://jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.html The You-tube video explains the process. It takes awhile the way they do it.| 23036|3207|2010-04-13 14:12:39|brentswain38|Re: Stability|That is why I have always absolutely refused to build or design openings far off the centreline. The fact that she stayed afloat ( unlike the Concordia) for six hours, says a lot about the water tightness of the hull and the advantages of keeping openings close to the centreline. The Concordia,which never had that advantage, sunk quickly, and the Albatross sank even quicker in the same situation.Had they been designed with the same considerations as Ullr, they would have had no problems. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > I would have tought that after a certain time in a knock down position, water would start to enter somewhere in a sailboat (companion way, heater chemney...). 6 hours seems a very long time, > > Martin. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > Here is an anecdote to make you think. > > > > 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since then. > > There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. > > > > He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. > > > > They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. > > > > Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. > > > > That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable with enough inappropriate tophamper. > > > > Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough passage. What a hassle. > > > > As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very interesting to me. > > > | 23037|23028|2010-04-13 14:14:02|brentswain38|Re: 3/8 rigging wire|The weight is negligible. Go for it. Pre bending the wire where it has to come together, after rounding the thimble makes it much easier to get the sleeves on. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Is there any noticeable difference between using 5/16 or 3/8 galv. 1x7 wire? Obviously it is stronger but the weight aloft should be negligible? The reason I ask is I can get a good deal on some 3/8" wire. > Rowland > > BTW nice looking boat Joe, I think the paint job rocks!! > | 23038|23031|2010-04-13 14:22:51|brentswain38|VW engine and dry exhaust|Motorized enema anyone? Powered by how many HP? In winter, the shit doesn't compost at all, and I have to dump it weekly, as it gets hard to turn the crank. Now it's spring, and I haven't dumped it in two weeks, and it still has room for more. In summer I have gone six weeks without any problems . So heat helps a lot, altho with the engine , only while it is running. I find it easy to take the top off the composter, row it ashore and bury it in the bush where no one walks. Trees love it. In cities,people just bag it and throw it in the nearest dumpster. In open water, it only takes a minute to dump it overboard. Piss can be dumped thru a cockpit drain. Its sterile, so enviromentally harmless. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I disagree Ben. With an appropriate mix of bacteria, and an active reactor, composting can be quite rapid, 2 weeks maybe at the most from brown puree (thanks to the impeller pump) to clear water. I have seen a system in operation that takes the effluent from 2-3 people and a residential toilet and sink in a 200 liter reactor, and turns it into odourless, nearly crystal clear water. I am told with a little filtration, it is suitable for drinking, at least more so than Lake Ontario. Though I am not saying you are allowed to, I see no harm releasing the outflow water into Lake Ontario. Even at only 6 liters a flush that is 33 flushes. That is at maximum stinginess in flushing, one month from flush to output. And I know that toilet got flushed far more frequently than that. I know the system did flush through in-organics and strained those out in a sand filter. > > > > As a biological reactor, it seems that elevating the temperature to the optimum for bacterial growth would accelerate the reactor. > > > > It seems that the motion of the boat, and use of mechanisms in the reactor might lead to some stirring without energy input. Like the ball in the bottom of a spray paint can. > > > The 2 year figure might be if it is left to sit in a bucket, anerobically. > > > Matt > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ben@... > Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:47:17 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:VW engine and dry exhaust > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 07:34:02AM -0700, Mark Hamill wrote: > > Routing the engine to use the air from the toilet might be a problem > > with ones bottom forming an airtight seal that could possibly cause > > ones nether regions to be sucked down the pipe and stalling the engine > > not to say ones sex life and the trip. ;) > > And mis-routing it would cause quite an "exciting" fountain. :) > > > But I have (seriously!!) often thought that routing the engine water > > through tubes on the bottom and sides of the airhead might be a good > > idea to help with composting in the winter especially. MarkH > > So-called 'composting' heads don't actually compost anything; as I > recall, according to the Humanure Manual (great book on the subject, by > the way), actual composting takes about two years. They do, however, > separate the liquids and the solids, which prevents most of the smell - > and a tiny fan takes care of the rest. So, adding a heater isn't going > to do much - except maybe "cook" the solids and make evaporation > faster... not really what you want. > > By the way, regarding emptying out the head: the advice I got from one > of the Nature's Head people was to just scoop most of the solids out of > the compartment and dump those (instead of doing a whole > disassemble/empty out/wash/reinstall cycle), then add more peat. As a > result, the monthly dump-out now takes me about five to ten minutes > instead of more than an hour, and is a lot more pleasant overall. > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23039|23020|2010-04-13 14:27:35|brentswain38|Re: New Picture Posted|For decades,when people said they wanted wooden cabin sides I have told them "Paint it wood colour, and from ten feet away no one will know the difference." Joe's photos confirm that. A clear finish over the wood coloured paint would make it even harder for people to see any difference. Much simpler and more practical. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Brent > Yes the other boat is in Kenai, Alaska. > Aaron > > > --- On Mon, 4/12/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New Picture Posted > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, April 12, 2010, 12:03 PM > > >   > > > > Looks good . Missing the stainless nose cone to protect the bow from anchor dings. > What she cost you so far? How was the trip north? > What is the other boat? An Alaskan built one? > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > I've been away awhile but I'm back with a picture of our new boat built by Evan Shaler. SV Sherpa was launched July 6th in Sydney. I've made an album and her picture is there. > > > > Cheers, > > joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23040|23031|2010-04-13 16:30:11|Ben Okopnik|Re: VW engine and dry exhaust|On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:13:29AM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > I disagree Ben. With an appropriate mix of bacteria, and an active > reactor, composting can be quite rapid, 2 weeks maybe at the most from > brown puree (thanks to the impeller pump) to clear water. I have seen > a system in operation that takes the effluent from 2-3 people and a > residential toilet and sink in a 200 liter reactor, and turns it into > odourless, nearly crystal clear water. Matt, you're welcome to disagree - but not by shifting the goalposts; that's called "straw-manning". We weren't talking about 200-liter reactors, appropriate mixes of bacteria, impeller pumps, or sand filters: all that was in question was adding heat to a bucket of fecal solids with some peat mixed in. > As a biological reactor, it seems that elevating the temperature to > the optimum for bacterial growth would accelerate the reactor. Yes, but not by a factor of 52 to 1 (that being the ratio between 2 years and 2 weeks.) I may be a bit rusty with regard to biochemistry - it's been a mort of years - but I'm pretty certain that most bacteria can't survive a 50-1 shift in temperature, assuming they were active at the low-temp end in the first place. Just as a baseline, if the head on my boat is usually at 70 degrees F, a 50x temperature change would bring it to 3500 degrees F; just a touch warm for most aerobic bacteria - or for humans to use. On the other hand, 3500 degrees would evaporate the head, slag the boat, and turn all the people aboard into slightly-impure carbon ash, so I guess it wouldn't be an issue anymore. Problem solved, forever!... maybe not exactly in the way I'd like, but those are just small details. :) > It seems that the motion of the boat, and use of mechanisms in the > reactor might lead to some stirring without energy input. Like the > ball in the bottom of a spray paint can. I live on a boat in the water, and have for many years. I use a composting head, daily. The reason I recommended the Humanure book is because all of the author's data and conclusions support and reflect my experience perfectly; there's no guesswork involved. He knows far more about it than I ever will, and describes it very well; you really should read it if you want to learn about it. > The 2 year figure might be if it is left to sit in a bucket, > anerobically. I'm afraid that your assumption is wrong. The stated figure is for compost that has been well-aerated and turned regularly (as per the setup described in the above book.) Heat is provided by the compost itself - I've seen compost piles smoke when they had too much manure added to them - and there's more than plenty of energy available for heating in a normal compost pile. More heat would only kill the process. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23041|22648|2010-04-13 17:03:55|tropical_breeze52|Re: tropo|Thanks Ben I have had a bit of interset in oz for brents origami designs might even get ough interest to end up getting the 36 ft sheets for the hulls here who knows keep my pinkys crossed --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:49:11AM -0700, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Wired up as 12 volt or hooked up end to end? > > As I recall, some guy on instructables.com (I _love_ that site, by the > way) actually experimented with this, and recorded the details. One > battery won't do it; two will sorta work, when fully charged and with > very light rod; three works a treat, for long enough to do a > decent-length welding project. I've also read another account elsewhere > - guys running Jeeps in the desert, one of them breaks some relatively > large piece, two batteries don't work to weld it, three work fine. > > A Swiss cruiser that I got to be friends with in the Caribbean told me > about this one, and I just had to try it out (my curiosity will kill me > yet...) He needed to solder a wire at some point (I don't recall why), > so he opened up a D-cell battery and took the graphite "pencil" out of > it, then hooked a positive jumper lead from his 12v system to the metal > and used the pencil, clamped in the negative lead, as the stinger. > > My wife is a jeweler, and I thought she'd appreciate having a fine-tip > welder on board, so I hooked this up. It works OK; too dirty for jewelry > work, but just fine for small-scale welding. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23042|23031|2010-04-13 17:10:13|tropical_breeze52|VW engine and dry exhaust|cows have two stomacks also wondered about using toyota diesel motors out of hiluxs ect Im not sure but we seem to get a lot of petrol motrs here second hand from Japan I havent ceck out diesel motor prices these would convert ok even a whole damaged car at an auction might be cheap and sell of the rest not to sure what you have over there --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:13:29AM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I disagree Ben. With an appropriate mix of bacteria, and an active > > reactor, composting can be quite rapid, 2 weeks maybe at the most from > > brown puree (thanks to the impeller pump) to clear water. I have seen > > a system in operation that takes the effluent from 2-3 people and a > > residential toilet and sink in a 200 liter reactor, and turns it into > > odourless, nearly crystal clear water. > > Matt, you're welcome to disagree - but not by shifting the goalposts; > that's called "straw-manning". We weren't talking about 200-liter > reactors, appropriate mixes of bacteria, impeller pumps, or sand > filters: all that was in question was adding heat to a bucket of fecal > solids with some peat mixed in. > > > As a biological reactor, it seems that elevating the temperature to > > the optimum for bacterial growth would accelerate the reactor. > > Yes, but not by a factor of 52 to 1 (that being the ratio between 2 > years and 2 weeks.) I may be a bit rusty with regard to biochemistry - > it's been a mort of years - but I'm pretty certain that most bacteria > can't survive a 50-1 shift in temperature, assuming they were active at > the low-temp end in the first place. Just as a baseline, if the head on > my boat is usually at 70 degrees F, a 50x temperature change would bring > it to 3500 degrees F; just a touch warm for most aerobic bacteria - or > for humans to use. On the other hand, 3500 degrees would evaporate the > head, slag the boat, and turn all the people aboard into slightly-impure > carbon ash, so I guess it wouldn't be an issue anymore. Problem solved, > forever!... maybe not exactly in the way I'd like, but those are just > small details. :) > > > It seems that the motion of the boat, and use of mechanisms in the > > reactor might lead to some stirring without energy input. Like the > > ball in the bottom of a spray paint can. > > I live on a boat in the water, and have for many years. I use a > composting head, daily. The reason I recommended the Humanure book is > because all of the author's data and conclusions support and reflect my > experience perfectly; there's no guesswork involved. He knows far more > about it than I ever will, and describes it very well; you really should > read it if you want to learn about it. > > > The 2 year figure might be if it is left to sit in a bucket, > > anerobically. > > I'm afraid that your assumption is wrong. The stated figure is for > compost that has been well-aerated and turned regularly (as per the > setup described in the above book.) Heat is provided by the compost > itself - I've seen compost piles smoke when they had too much manure > added to them - and there's more than plenty of energy available for > heating in a normal compost pile. More heat would only kill the process. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23043|3207|2010-04-13 18:38:13|martin demers|Re: Stability|on my boat the companion way is on the left side, I might consider changing it to the middle with a water tight door! Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 18:09:01 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stability That is why I have always absolutely refused to build or design openings far off the centreline. The fact that she stayed afloat ( unlike the Concordia) for six hours, says a lot about the water tightness of the hull and the advantages of keeping openings close to the centreline. The Concordia,which never had that advantage, sunk quickly, and the Albatross sank even quicker in the same situation.Had they been designed with the same considerations as Ullr, they would have had no problems. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > I would have tought that after a certain time in a knock down position, water would start to enter somewhere in a sailboat (companion way, heater chemney...). 6 hours seems a very long time, > > Martin. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > Here is an anecdote to make you think. > > > > 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since then. > > There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. > > > > He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. > > > > They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. > > > > Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. > > > > That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable with enough inappropriate tophamper. > > > > Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough passage. What a hassle. > > > > As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very interesting to me. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Messenger sur votre t�l�phone = MI sur la route http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724474 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23044|23031|2010-04-13 20:23:07|maxcamirand|VW engine and dry exhaust|Hi Ben, Your comment on temperature changes is dead wrong. Going from 1 degree to 50 degrees isn't a 50-fold change in temperature. Remember that heat 'degrees' of any kind other than Kelvin have an arbitrary zero. Just a note, not a judgment on the overall value of your post. Regards, -Maxime Camirand --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:13:29AM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I disagree Ben. With an appropriate mix of bacteria, and an active > > reactor, composting can be quite rapid, 2 weeks maybe at the most from > > brown puree (thanks to the impeller pump) to clear water. I have seen > > a system in operation that takes the effluent from 2-3 people and a > > residential toilet and sink in a 200 liter reactor, and turns it into > > odourless, nearly crystal clear water. > > Matt, you're welcome to disagree - but not by shifting the goalposts; > that's called "straw-manning". We weren't talking about 200-liter > reactors, appropriate mixes of bacteria, impeller pumps, or sand > filters: all that was in question was adding heat to a bucket of fecal > solids with some peat mixed in. > > > As a biological reactor, it seems that elevating the temperature to > > the optimum for bacterial growth would accelerate the reactor. > > Yes, but not by a factor of 52 to 1 (that being the ratio between 2 > years and 2 weeks.) I may be a bit rusty with regard to biochemistry - > it's been a mort of years - but I'm pretty certain that most bacteria > can't survive a 50-1 shift in temperature, assuming they were active at > the low-temp end in the first place. Just as a baseline, if the head on > my boat is usually at 70 degrees F, a 50x temperature change would bring > it to 3500 degrees F; just a touch warm for most aerobic bacteria - or > for humans to use. On the other hand, 3500 degrees would evaporate the > head, slag the boat, and turn all the people aboard into slightly-impure > carbon ash, so I guess it wouldn't be an issue anymore. Problem solved, > forever!... maybe not exactly in the way I'd like, but those are just > small details. :) > > > It seems that the motion of the boat, and use of mechanisms in the > > reactor might lead to some stirring without energy input. Like the > > ball in the bottom of a spray paint can. > > I live on a boat in the water, and have for many years. I use a > composting head, daily. The reason I recommended the Humanure book is > because all of the author's data and conclusions support and reflect my > experience perfectly; there's no guesswork involved. He knows far more > about it than I ever will, and describes it very well; you really should > read it if you want to learn about it. > > > The 2 year figure might be if it is left to sit in a bucket, > > anerobically. > > I'm afraid that your assumption is wrong. The stated figure is for > compost that has been well-aerated and turned regularly (as per the > setup described in the above book.) Heat is provided by the compost > itself - I've seen compost piles smoke when they had too much manure > added to them - and there's more than plenty of energy available for > heating in a normal compost pile. More heat would only kill the process. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23045|23031|2010-04-13 23:38:32|Ben Okopnik|Re: VW engine and dry exhaust|On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:22:43AM -0000, maxcamirand wrote: > Hi Ben, > > Your comment on temperature changes is dead wrong. Going from 1 degree > to 50 degrees isn't a 50-fold change in temperature. Remember that > heat 'degrees' of any kind other than Kelvin have an arbitrary zero. That would be "arbitrary only according to Max", I presume. Most human beings find, e.g., the freezing point of water to be a very important point of demarcation - and couldn't give the slightest damn about what happens at zero Kelvin (I'd say that 99% of them have never heard of it, and will never have one single use for it in their entire lives.) > Just a note, not a judgment on the overall value of your post. I did say that my biochem was pretty rusty. But then, your nitpicking was gratuitously pointless, and useless in anything related to this discussion. Shall we talk about the varieties of "dead wrong"? Clue for next time: you might have said something like "reaction rates generally double for every 10°C rise in temperature, so a 50x increase in reaction rate only means a jump of between 60° and 70° C... however, this would still cook all the compost-digesting bacteria." That would let you show off how much you know *and* contribute something useful. You might find that to be a more productive approach than "Oooh, oooh, I caught you not being perfect in some trivial way! Yay, me!" That one doesn't win you too many friends. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23046|23020|2010-04-14 08:18:39|Stephen|Re: New Picture Posted|WOW Joe, that's a fine looking yacht. If you get a chance, I'd love to see more pictures of her. -Stephen --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > I've been away awhile but I'm back with a picture of our new boat built by Evan Shaler. SV Sherpa was launched July 6th in Sydney. I've made an album and her picture is there. > > Cheers, > joe > | 23047|23031|2010-04-14 10:01:25|maxcamirand|VW engine and dry exhaust|Look who's straw-manning now. Either you have no education in science or that trollish streak that rubbed me the wrong way to begin with is worse than I thought. Very reminiscent of insecure, pimpled nerds on usenet and irc. Judging by the archives on this group, I'm far from being the only person who finds you disagreeable. Goodbye. Sincerely, -Maxime Camirand --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:22:43AM -0000, maxcamirand wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > > > Your comment on temperature changes is dead wrong. Going from 1 degree > > to 50 degrees isn't a 50-fold change in temperature. Remember that > > heat 'degrees' of any kind other than Kelvin have an arbitrary zero. > > That would be "arbitrary only according to Max", I presume. Most human > beings find, e.g., the freezing point of water to be a very important > point of demarcation - and couldn't give the slightest damn about what > happens at zero Kelvin (I'd say that 99% of them have never heard of it, > and will never have one single use for it in their entire lives.) > > > Just a note, not a judgment on the overall value of your post. > > I did say that my biochem was pretty rusty. But then, your nitpicking > was gratuitously pointless, and useless in anything related to this > discussion. Shall we talk about the varieties of "dead wrong"? > > Clue for next time: you might have said something like "reaction rates > generally double for every 10�C rise in temperature, so a 50x increase > in reaction rate only means a jump of between 60� and 70� C... however, > this would still cook all the compost-digesting bacteria." That would > let you show off how much you know *and* contribute something useful. > You might find that to be a more productive approach than "Oooh, oooh, I > caught you not being perfect in some trivial way! Yay, me!" That one > doesn't win you too many friends. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23048|23031|2010-04-14 10:47:50|Ben Okopnik|Re: VW engine and dry exhaust|On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 02:00:59PM -0000, maxcamirand wrote: > Look who's straw-manning now. Have a nice life, troll. Do forget to write. *plonk* -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23049|23031|2010-04-14 12:34:39|Matt Malone|Waste Treatment|Sorry Ben, I did not think I was shifting goalposts any further than suggesting a more active form of composting as another option, and challenging that composting HAS to take 2 years. I think what I was saying is, it all depends how passive your composting is. I also sent my message to the President of the company that has the system I was talking about, and though we both know what his system can do (because I worked there as an engineer and saw it with my own eyes), he concurs that the Humanure book is also good too, and he has also suggested I read it. He is an engineer and a specialist in waste treatment and appreciates the entire spectrum of options. I was hoping he might see this perceived problem of 2 years as an opportunity to expand his business and provide better options for sailboats. I have not convinced him yet, though I have been trying for a few years now. I found Brent's statements of his experience of what he can and can't do with his composting toilet at certain times of the year very informative. As an engineer who cannot resist trying to make things work better, I might be tempted to insulate the composting tank from fall to spring, like a hot water heater blanket, to help keep it going longer. Probably nothing but active heating would keep it going in the winter, unless the tank were carefully included in the heated part of the cabin. Yes, Brent's question / comment about power requirements is a very relevent one if I am saying more active is an option. I think there is a trade-off between power, and speed of composting. Certainly the system I have experience with would be more energy-expensive than refrigeration, so would not be likely to fit a reasonable tradeoff on a sailboat. The real engine in the system however is the bacteria, and the energy in the waste. It seems to me one should be able to greatly reduce the energy consumption of the reactor to maybe 1/20th and still get the job done in far less time. The system I was working with was meant for high-rate waste streams where energy was not the largest concern so it was at the far end of the envelope of biological reactors relative to composters. I cannot tell you more about it without letting you in on the secrets of how it worked, which do not belong to me. I can assure you it did work as fast as I said, which might be 50x faster than what Ben was describing. (I would have to sit down and do detailed calculations, but, yes, 50x is a good approximation.) Note that clever things that might move with the motion of the boat to more actively process the waste, like the ball at the bottom of a spray can stirs paint, is still stealing energy from the boat. But it is not stealing electricity, it is stealing a tiny amount of kinetic energy from the boat. (Same reason raw and boiled eggs behave differently when spun.) Since the sails produce the power to move the boat through the waves, it is energy that is relatively abundant and the conversion to a use is more direct. No alternator, batteries and electric motor involved in the transmission of that energy. I think here is potential there. What I am getting at is there is a lot of room for improvement over 2 years. Say for instance that a more active, but still very low-energy consumption system, made the process 5 times faster, that means the reactor can be 5 times smaller than the composter, or be emptied somewhere between 5 times less frequent and never (if the processing rate exceeded the inflow rate), or handle 5 times as many people. I think we can all agree that even a factor of 5, when it comes to handling waste is interesting. I had hoped that knowing that 50x times faster is possible would remove a non-existent barrier and spur innovation. I was not meaning to straw-man anyone Ben. And, lastly, if an experiment takes 2 years, it would take me a working lifetime to do 15-20 sequential experiments. If the rate of innovation in improving a system is at all linked to the rate I can do experiments, I would really like to be working on an experiment that takes 2 weeks, and then scale it back to something that takes 3 months so that only my last experiment takes 3 months. I think that would be a faster way to find better solutions. But I am just an engineer and one of the reasons I joined this mailing list is because I was impressed by the fixtureless method of constructing metal sailboats that Brent has. I admit my first thoughts probably would have involved fixtures of some type and been a lot harder. I am here to see what is possible, hear about the options, and learn new things. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:29:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:VW engine and dry exhaust On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:13:29AM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > I disagree Ben. With an appropriate mix of bacteria, and an active > reactor, composting can be quite rapid, 2 weeks maybe at the most from > brown puree (thanks to the impeller pump) to clear water. I have seen > a system in operation that takes the effluent from 2-3 people and a > residential toilet and sink in a 200 liter reactor, and turns it into > odourless, nearly crystal clear water. Matt, you're welcome to disagree - but not by shifting the goalposts; that's called "straw-manning". We weren't talking about 200-liter reactors, appropriate mixes of bacteria, impeller pumps, or sand filters: all that was in question was adding heat to a bucket of fecal solids with some peat mixed in. > As a biological reactor, it seems that elevating the temperature to > the optimum for bacterial growth would accelerate the reactor. Yes, but not by a factor of 52 to 1 (that being the ratio between 2 years and 2 weeks.) I may be a bit rusty with regard to biochemistry - it's been a mort of years - but I'm pretty certain that most bacteria can't survive a 50-1 shift in temperature, assuming they were active at the low-temp end in the first place. Just as a baseline, if the head on my boat is usually at 70 degrees F, a 50x temperature change would bring it to 3500 degrees F; just a touch warm for most aerobic bacteria - or for humans to use. On the other hand, 3500 degrees would evaporate the head, slag the boat, and turn all the people aboard into slightly-impure carbon ash, so I guess it wouldn't be an issue anymore. Problem solved, forever!... maybe not exactly in the way I'd like, but those are just small details. :) > It seems that the motion of the boat, and use of mechanisms in the > reactor might lead to some stirring without energy input. Like the > ball in the bottom of a spray paint can. I live on a boat in the water, and have for many years. I use a composting head, daily. The reason I recommended the Humanure book is because all of the author's data and conclusions support and reflect my experience perfectly; there's no guesswork involved. He knows far more about it than I ever will, and describes it very well; you really should read it if you want to learn about it. > The 2 year figure might be if it is left to sit in a bucket, > anerobically. I'm afraid that your assumption is wrong. The stated figure is for compost that has been well-aerated and turned regularly (as per the setup described in the above book.) Heat is provided by the compost itself - I've seen compost piles smoke when they had too much manure added to them - and there's more than plenty of energy available for heating in a normal compost pile. More heat would only kill the process. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com _________________________________________________________________ Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23050|23031|2010-04-14 14:37:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Waste Treatment|On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:34:23PM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > Sorry Ben, I did not think I was shifting goalposts any further than > suggesting a more active form of composting as another option, and > challenging that composting HAS to take 2 years. I think what I was > saying is, it all depends how passive your composting is. I understand your point, Matt; the problem is that, on a boat, *everything* is a compromise. If we (whatever size group you take that to be) were to do a whole lot of experimentation, we might be able to come up with a system that works "better", for some value of the word, than the passive ones in use now; however, they would unavoidably require more maintenance, more construction cost, more involvement. This in itself moves toward the definition of "worse" for someone trying to construct what is essentially a self-sufficient space capsule: the perfect boat, from a cruiser's perspective, would be one that never needs any maintenance and requires no energy or material input from the outside. Adding complexity, and especially adding anything that requires external power or supplies, should always be considered in a very, very critical manner. Have you ever heard the expression "The Perfect is the enemy of The Good"? In the case of the so-called composting toilet, I think that we've reached the point of "Good": Brent's version can be made for about $5, and it does what it's supposed to do, with little to no maintenance. Other than the system described here once, where a guy with a multihull cut a hole in one of his cockpit seats (it was directly over water) and made a cover for it, I can't imagine anything simpler, more effective, or less expensive. The biggest question here is, what would be the payoff in fiddling with such a system? I can't see a "return on investment" - even if that investment is just time - that could give you any kind of significant gains here. > I also sent my message to the President of the company that has the > system I was talking about, and though we both know what his system > can do (because I worked there as an engineer and saw it with my own > eyes), he concurs that the Humanure book is also good too, and he has > also suggested I read it. It really is an excellent resource - well-written, well thought-out, and available on line, for free. http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.html > He is an engineer and a specialist in waste > treatment and appreciates the entire spectrum of options. I was > hoping he might see this perceived problem of 2 years as an > opportunity to expand his business and provide better options for > sailboats. I have not convinced him yet, though I have been trying > for a few years now. I think that, from a business perspective, he sees the same thing as I do. Would boaters *really* care whether the stuff they get rid of is composted or not? Now, if you came up with a system that vaporized the solids and the liquids instantly, required little or no power, and passed all the CG, etc. restrictions, that would be a money-maker. Composted vs. not? From the business perspective, at least, that's a total non-starter. > I found Brent's statements of his experience of what he can and can't > do with his composting toilet at certain times of the year very > informative. As an engineer who cannot resist trying to make things > work better, [laugh] I'm an engineer too. I have to say that living aboard for the past 19 years (egads, has it been that long?) has cured me, at least partially, of the "must make everything work better" syndrome; there are way too many systems aboard that must be taken care of on a regular basis, and hyperfocusing on one of them leaves the rest of them to degrade merrily. After you've had a few major failures due to that kind of thing, you learn Not To Do That. :) > The system I was working > with was meant for high-rate waste streams where energy was not the > largest concern so it was at the far end of the envelope of biological > reactors relative to composters. I cannot tell you more about it > without letting you in on the secrets of how it worked, which do not > belong to me. I can assure you it did work as fast as I said, which > might be 50x faster than what Ben was describing. (I would ha ve to > sit down and do detailed calculations, but, yes, 50x is a good > approximation.) Oh, I grant that it's possible - either in a laboratory environment or in a large-scale industrial setup which replicates that environment (I have a friend who is a process chemist, and I'm awed and amazed at the kind of stuff these guys get done on a large scale.) Aboard a sailboat, where the only stable, known quantity might be the skipper's ability for getting out of tough scrapes... eh, that's not much like a lab environment at all. We need designs that service *that* kind of market - and a bucket that separates liquids and solids, has a stainless rod in it for mixing, and a small fan to provide air movement is about as good as it gets. > Note that clever things that might move with the motion of the boat to > more actively process the waste, like the ball at the bottom of a > spray can stirs paint, is still stealing energy from the boat. But it > is not stealing electricity, it is stealing a tiny amount of kinetic > energy from the boat. (Same reason raw and boiled eggs behave > differently when spun.) Since the sails produce the power to move the > boat through the waves, it is energy that is relatively abundant and > the conversion to a use is more direct. No alternator, batteries and > electric motor involved in the transmission of that energy. I think > here is potential there. How do you maintain those clever things? Who, to put it in simple language, sticks their hands in the shit - in the middle of a storm, with everything getting splashed around and flying across the cabin - and fixes it when it's stuck? (I assure you that you *do* still need to use a head in a storm - perhaps even more often than usual. It would also be the time when complicated, poorly-tested mechanisms get stressed and break.) How do they stay lubricated? How much extra do they cost, and can you get the replacement parts?... lots of questions like that apply, and the answers for any mechanism more complicated than a simple hand-crank just aren't very good. Which brings us back to my definition of "worse". > What I am getting at is there is a lot of room for improvement over 2 > years. Say for instance that a more active, but still very low-energy > consumption system, made the process 5 times faster, that means the > reactor can be 5 times smaller than the composter, or be emptied > somewhere between 5 times less frequent and never (if the processing > rate exceeded the inflow rate), or handle 5 times as many people. I > think we can all agree that even a factor of 5, when it comes to > handling waste is interesting. Given that you still can't pump out the output, where's the gain? Basing all of this on "if only the laws were different" doesn't help anyone. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23051|23051|2010-04-14 18:36:20|brentswain38|US money orders|Please don't send me any more US postal money orders, unless they are definitely INTERNATIONAL US Postal money orders. The non international US postal money orders say directly on them that they cannot be cashed outside the US. I have managed to cash them, but its difficult. $27 doesn't justify traveling to a foreign country to get one cashed. I may have to start simply sending them back.| 23052|23031|2010-04-14 18:45:53|brentswain38|Re: Waste Treatment|As corrsion of metal doubles for every ten degree rise in temperature, it doesn't take a doubling of temperature from absolute zero for some reactions to double. My head is in the heated part of the cabin, but in winter it doesn;t stay heated fultime. Alongside a dock with electric heat, it may, but who wants to live like that? As for elctrical energy, I stil hope to experiment some day with a pendelum hooked to an alternator, for free energy at sea. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Sorry Ben, I did not think I was shifting goalposts any further than suggesting a more active form of composting as another option, and challenging that composting HAS to take 2 years. I think what I was saying is, it all depends how passive your composting is. > > > I also sent my message to the President of the company that has the system I was talking about, and though we both know what his system can do (because I worked there as an engineer and saw it with my own eyes), he concurs that the Humanure book is also good too, and he has also suggested I read it. He is an engineer and a specialist in waste treatment and appreciates the entire spectrum of options. I was hoping he might see this perceived problem of 2 years as an opportunity to expand his business and provide better options for sailboats. I have not convinced him yet, though I have been trying for a few years now. > > > > I found Brent's statements of his experience of what he can and can't do with his composting toilet at certain times of the year very informative. As an engineer who cannot resist trying to make things work better, I might be tempted to insulate the composting tank from fall to spring, like a hot water heater blanket, to help keep it going longer. Probably nothing but active heating would keep it going in the winter, unless the tank were carefully included in the heated part of the cabin. > > > > Yes, Brent's question / comment about power requirements is a very relevent one if I am saying more active is an option. I think there is a trade-off between power, and speed of composting. Certainly the system I have experience with would be more energy-expensive than refrigeration, so would not be likely to fit a reasonable tradeoff on a sailboat. The real engine in the system however is the bacteria, and the energy in the waste. It seems to me one should be able to greatly reduce the energy consumption of the reactor to maybe 1/20th and still get the job done in far less time. The system I was working with was meant for high-rate waste streams where energy was not the largest concern so it was at the far end of the envelope of biological reactors relative to composters. I cannot tell you more about it without letting you in on the secrets of how it worked, which do not belong to me. I can assure you it did work as fast as I said, which might be 50x faster than what Ben was describing. (I would have to sit down and do detailed calculations, but, yes, 50x is a good approximation.) > > > > Note that clever things that might move with the motion of the boat to more actively process the waste, like the ball at the bottom of a spray can stirs paint, is still stealing energy from the boat. But it is not stealing electricity, it is stealing a tiny amount of kinetic energy from the boat. (Same reason raw and boiled eggs behave differently when spun.) Since the sails produce the power to move the boat through the waves, it is energy that is relatively abundant and the conversion to a use is more direct. No alternator, batteries and electric motor involved in the transmission of that energy. I think here is potential there. > > > > What I am getting at is there is a lot of room for improvement over 2 years. Say for instance that a more active, but still very low-energy consumption system, made the process 5 times faster, that means the reactor can be 5 times smaller than the composter, or be emptied somewhere between 5 times less frequent and never (if the processing rate exceeded the inflow rate), or handle 5 times as many people. I think we can all agree that even a factor of 5, when it comes to handling waste is interesting. > > > > I had hoped that knowing that 50x times faster is possible would remove a non-existent barrier and spur innovation. I was not meaning to straw-man anyone Ben. > > > > And, lastly, if an experiment takes 2 years, it would take me a working lifetime to do 15-20 sequential experiments. If the rate of innovation in improving a system is at all linked to the rate I can do experiments, I would really like to be working on an experiment that takes 2 weeks, and then scale it back to something that takes 3 months so that only my last experiment takes 3 months. I think that would be a faster way to find better solutions. > > > > But I am just an engineer and one of the reasons I joined this mailing list is because I was impressed by the fixtureless method of constructing metal sailboats that Brent has. I admit my first thoughts probably would have involved fixtures of some type and been a lot harder. I am here to see what is possible, hear about the options, and learn new things. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ben@... > Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:29:49 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:VW engine and dry exhaust > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:13:29AM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I disagree Ben. With an appropriate mix of bacteria, and an active > > reactor, composting can be quite rapid, 2 weeks maybe at the most from > > brown puree (thanks to the impeller pump) to clear water. I have seen > > a system in operation that takes the effluent from 2-3 people and a > > residential toilet and sink in a 200 liter reactor, and turns it into > > odourless, nearly crystal clear water. > > Matt, you're welcome to disagree - but not by shifting the goalposts; > that's called "straw-manning". We weren't talking about 200-liter > reactors, appropriate mixes of bacteria, impeller pumps, or sand > filters: all that was in question was adding heat to a bucket of fecal > solids with some peat mixed in. > > > As a biological reactor, it seems that elevating the temperature to > > the optimum for bacterial growth would accelerate the reactor. > > Yes, but not by a factor of 52 to 1 (that being the ratio between 2 > years and 2 weeks.) I may be a bit rusty with regard to biochemistry - > it's been a mort of years - but I'm pretty certain that most bacteria > can't survive a 50-1 shift in temperature, assuming they were active at > the low-temp end in the first place. Just as a baseline, if the head on > my boat is usually at 70 degrees F, a 50x temperature change would bring > it to 3500 degrees F; just a touch warm for most aerobic bacteria - or > for humans to use. On the other hand, 3500 degrees would evaporate the > head, slag the boat, and turn all the people aboard into slightly-impure > carbon ash, so I guess it wouldn't be an issue anymore. Problem solved, > forever!... maybe not exactly in the way I'd like, but those are just > small details. :) > > > It seems that the motion of the boat, and use of mechanisms in the > > reactor might lead to some stirring without energy input. Like the > > ball in the bottom of a spray paint can. > > I live on a boat in the water, and have for many years. I use a > composting head, daily. The reason I recommended the Humanure book is > because all of the author's data and conclusions support and reflect my > experience perfectly; there's no guesswork involved. He knows far more > about it than I ever will, and describes it very well; you really should > read it if you want to learn about it. > > > The 2 year figure might be if it is left to sit in a bucket, > > anerobically. > > I'm afraid that your assumption is wrong. The stated figure is for > compost that has been well-aerated and turned regularly (as per the > setup described in the above book.) Heat is provided by the compost > itself - I've seen compost piles smoke when they had too much manure > added to them - and there's more than plenty of energy available for > heating in a normal compost pile. More heat would only kill the process. > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23053|3207|2010-04-14 19:28:41|theboilerflue|Re: Stability|I was planning on at some point finding some larger PVC pipe ends and caps, to epoxy into my vents on the boat so that I can close the boat completely in really heavy weather. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > That is why I have always absolutely refused to build or design openings far off the centreline. The fact that she stayed afloat ( unlike the Concordia) for six hours, says a lot about the water tightness of the hull and the advantages of keeping openings close to the centreline. The Concordia,which never had that advantage, sunk quickly, and the Albatross sank even quicker in the same situation.Had they been designed with the same considerations as Ullr, they would have had no problems. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > I would have tought that after a certain time in a knock down position, water would start to enter somewhere in a sailboat (companion way, heater chemney...). 6 hours seems a very long time, > > > > Martin. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > > > Here is an anecdote to make you think. > > > > > > 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since then. > > > There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. > > > > > > He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. > > > > > > They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. > > > > > > Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. > > > > > > That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable with enough inappropriate tophamper. > > > > > > Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough passage. What a hassle. > > > > > > As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very interesting to me. > > > > > > | 23054|23031|2010-04-14 19:32:57|theboilerflue|Re: Waste Treatment|Well I think probably the easy and effective way of speeding up the composting time here would be to boost it at the upstream end. They sell gel caps full of digestive enzymes don't they? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Sorry Ben, I did not think I was shifting goalposts any further than suggesting a more active form of composting as another option, and challenging that composting HAS to take 2 years. I think what I was saying is, it all depends how passive your composting is. > > > I also sent my message to the President of the company that has the system I was talking about, and though we both know what his system can do (because I worked there as an engineer and saw it with my own eyes), he concurs that the Humanure book is also good too, and he has also suggested I read it. He is an engineer and a specialist in waste treatment and appreciates the entire spectrum of options. I was hoping he might see this perceived problem of 2 years as an opportunity to expand his business and provide better options for sailboats. I have not convinced him yet, though I have been trying for a few years now. > > > > I found Brent's statements of his experience of what he can and can't do with his composting toilet at certain times of the year very informative. As an engineer who cannot resist trying to make things work better, I might be tempted to insulate the composting tank from fall to spring, like a hot water heater blanket, to help keep it going longer. Probably nothing but active heating would keep it going in the winter, unless the tank were carefully included in the heated part of the cabin. > > > > Yes, Brent's question / comment about power requirements is a very relevent one if I am saying more active is an option. I think there is a trade-off between power, and speed of composting. Certainly the system I have experience with would be more energy-expensive than refrigeration, so would not be likely to fit a reasonable tradeoff on a sailboat. The real engine in the system however is the bacteria, and the energy in the waste. It seems to me one should be able to greatly reduce the energy consumption of the reactor to maybe 1/20th and still get the job done in far less time. The system I was working with was meant for high-rate waste streams where energy was not the largest concern so it was at the far end of the envelope of biological reactors relative to composters. I cannot tell you more about it without letting you in on the secrets of how it worked, which do not belong to me. I can assure you it did work as fast as I said, which might be 50x faster than what Ben was describing. (I would have to sit down and do detailed calculations, but, yes, 50x is a good approximation.) > > > > Note that clever things that might move with the motion of the boat to more actively process the waste, like the ball at the bottom of a spray can stirs paint, is still stealing energy from the boat. But it is not stealing electricity, it is stealing a tiny amount of kinetic energy from the boat. (Same reason raw and boiled eggs behave differently when spun.) Since the sails produce the power to move the boat through the waves, it is energy that is relatively abundant and the conversion to a use is more direct. No alternator, batteries and electric motor involved in the transmission of that energy. I think here is potential there. > > > > What I am getting at is there is a lot of room for improvement over 2 years. Say for instance that a more active, but still very low-energy consumption system, made the process 5 times faster, that means the reactor can be 5 times smaller than the composter, or be emptied somewhere between 5 times less frequent and never (if the processing rate exceeded the inflow rate), or handle 5 times as many people. I think we can all agree that even a factor of 5, when it comes to handling waste is interesting. > > > > I had hoped that knowing that 50x times faster is possible would remove a non-existent barrier and spur innovation. I was not meaning to straw-man anyone Ben. > > > > And, lastly, if an experiment takes 2 years, it would take me a working lifetime to do 15-20 sequential experiments. If the rate of innovation in improving a system is at all linked to the rate I can do experiments, I would really like to be working on an experiment that takes 2 weeks, and then scale it back to something that takes 3 months so that only my last experiment takes 3 months. I think that would be a faster way to find better solutions. > > > > But I am just an engineer and one of the reasons I joined this mailing list is because I was impressed by the fixtureless method of constructing metal sailboats that Brent has. I admit my first thoughts probably would have involved fixtures of some type and been a lot harder. I am here to see what is possible, hear about the options, and learn new things. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ben@... > Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:29:49 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:VW engine and dry exhaust > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:13:29AM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I disagree Ben. With an appropriate mix of bacteria, and an active > > reactor, composting can be quite rapid, 2 weeks maybe at the most from > > brown puree (thanks to the impeller pump) to clear water. I have seen > > a system in operation that takes the effluent from 2-3 people and a > > residential toilet and sink in a 200 liter reactor, and turns it into > > odourless, nearly crystal clear water. > > Matt, you're welcome to disagree - but not by shifting the goalposts; > that's called "straw-manning". We weren't talking about 200-liter > reactors, appropriate mixes of bacteria, impeller pumps, or sand > filters: all that was in question was adding heat to a bucket of fecal > solids with some peat mixed in. > > > As a biological reactor, it seems that elevating the temperature to > > the optimum for bacterial growth would accelerate the reactor. > > Yes, but not by a factor of 52 to 1 (that being the ratio between 2 > years and 2 weeks.) I may be a bit rusty with regard to biochemistry - > it's been a mort of years - but I'm pretty certain that most bacteria > can't survive a 50-1 shift in temperature, assuming they were active at > the low-temp end in the first place. Just as a baseline, if the head on > my boat is usually at 70 degrees F, a 50x temperature change would bring > it to 3500 degrees F; just a touch warm for most aerobic bacteria - or > for humans to use. On the other hand, 3500 degrees would evaporate the > head, slag the boat, and turn all the people aboard into slightly-impure > carbon ash, so I guess it wouldn't be an issue anymore. Problem solved, > forever!... maybe not exactly in the way I'd like, but those are just > small details. :) > > > It seems that the motion of the boat, and use of mechanisms in the > > reactor might lead to some stirring without energy input. Like the > > ball in the bottom of a spray paint can. > > I live on a boat in the water, and have for many years. I use a > composting head, daily. The reason I recommended the Humanure book is > because all of the author's data and conclusions support and reflect my > experience perfectly; there's no guesswork involved. He knows far more > about it than I ever will, and describes it very well; you really should > read it if you want to learn about it. > > > The 2 year figure might be if it is left to sit in a bucket, > > anerobically. > > I'm afraid that your assumption is wrong. The stated figure is for > compost that has been well-aerated and turned regularly (as per the > setup described in the above book.) Heat is provided by the compost > itself - I've seen compost piles smoke when they had too much manure > added to them - and there's more than plenty of energy available for > heating in a normal compost pile. More heat would only kill the process. > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23055|23031|2010-04-14 22:58:32|martin demers|Re: Waste Treatment|worms would speed the process, wouldn't they? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: haidan@... Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:32:42 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Waste Treatment Well I think probably the easy and effective way of speeding up the composting time here would be to boost it at the upstream end. They sell gel caps full of digestive enzymes don't they? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Sorry Ben, I did not think I was shifting goalposts any further than suggesting a more active form of composting as another option, and challenging that composting HAS to take 2 years. I think what I was saying is, it all depends how passive your composting is. > > > I also sent my message to the President of the company that has the system I was talking about, and though we both know what his system can do (because I worked there as an engineer and saw it with my own eyes), he concurs that the Humanure book is also good too, and he has also suggested I read it. He is an engineer and a specialist in waste treatment and appreciates the entire spectrum of options. I was hoping he might see this perceived problem of 2 years as an opportunity to expand his business and provide better options for sailboats. I have not convinced him yet, though I have been trying for a few years now. > > > > I found Brent's statements of his experience of what he can and can't do with his composting toilet at certain times of the year very informative. As an engineer who cannot resist trying to make things work better, I might be tempted to insulate the composting tank from fall to spring, like a hot water heater blanket, to help keep it going longer. Probably nothing but active heating would keep it going in the winter, unless the tank were carefully included in the heated part of the cabin. > > > > Yes, Brent's question / comment about power requirements is a very relevent one if I am saying more active is an option. I think there is a trade-off between power, and speed of composting. Certainly the system I have experience with would be more energy-expensive than refrigeration, so would not be likely to fit a reasonable tradeoff on a sailboat. The real engine in the system however is the bacteria, and the energy in the waste. It seems to me one should be able to greatly reduce the energy consumption of the reactor to maybe 1/20th and still get the job done in far less time. The system I was working with was meant for high-rate waste streams where energy was not the largest concern so it was at the far end of the envelope of biological reactors relative to composters. I cannot tell you more about it without letting you in on the secrets of how it worked, which do not belong to me. I can assure you it did work as fast as I said, which might be 50x faster than what Ben was describing. (I would have to sit down and do detailed calculations, but, yes, 50x is a good approximation.) > > > > Note that clever things that might move with the motion of the boat to more actively process the waste, like the ball at the bottom of a spray can stirs paint, is still stealing energy from the boat. But it is not stealing electricity, it is stealing a tiny amount of kinetic energy from the boat. (Same reason raw and boiled eggs behave differently when spun.) Since the sails produce the power to move the boat through the waves, it is energy that is relatively abundant and the conversion to a use is more direct. No alternator, batteries and electric motor involved in the transmission of that energy. I think here is potential there. > > > > What I am getting at is there is a lot of room for improvement over 2 years. Say for instance that a more active, but still very low-energy consumption system, made the process 5 times faster, that means the reactor can be 5 times smaller than the composter, or be emptied somewhere between 5 times less frequent and never (if the processing rate exceeded the inflow rate), or handle 5 times as many people. I think we can all agree that even a factor of 5, when it comes to handling waste is interesting. > > > > I had hoped that knowing that 50x times faster is possible would remove a non-existent barrier and spur innovation. I was not meaning to straw-man anyone Ben. > > > > And, lastly, if an experiment takes 2 years, it would take me a working lifetime to do 15-20 sequential experiments. If the rate of innovation in improving a system is at all linked to the rate I can do experiments, I would really like to be working on an experiment that takes 2 weeks, and then scale it back to something that takes 3 months so that only my last experiment takes 3 months. I think that would be a faster way to find better solutions. > > > > But I am just an engineer and one of the reasons I joined this mailing list is because I was impressed by the fixtureless method of constructing metal sailboats that Brent has. I admit my first thoughts probably would have involved fixtures of some type and been a lot harder. I am here to see what is possible, hear about the options, and learn new things. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ben@... > Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:29:49 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:VW engine and dry exhaust > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:13:29AM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I disagree Ben. With an appropriate mix of bacteria, and an active > > reactor, composting can be quite rapid, 2 weeks maybe at the most from > > brown puree (thanks to the impeller pump) to clear water. I have seen > > a system in operation that takes the effluent from 2-3 people and a > > residential toilet and sink in a 200 liter reactor, and turns it into > > odourless, nearly crystal clear water. > > Matt, you're welcome to disagree - but not by shifting the goalposts; > that's called "straw-manning". We weren't talking about 200-liter > reactors, appropriate mixes of bacteria, impeller pumps, or sand > filters: all that was in question was adding heat to a bucket of fecal > solids with some peat mixed in. > > > As a biological reactor, it seems that elevating the temperature to > > the optimum for bacterial growth would accelerate the reactor. > > Yes, but not by a factor of 52 to 1 (that being the ratio between 2 > years and 2 weeks.) I may be a bit rusty with regard to biochemistry - > it's been a mort of years - but I'm pretty certain that most bacteria > can't survive a 50-1 shift in temperature, assuming they were active at > the low-temp end in the first place. Just as a baseline, if the head on > my boat is usually at 70 degrees F, a 50x temperature change would bring > it to 3500 degrees F; just a touch warm for most aerobic bacteria - or > for humans to use. On the other hand, 3500 degrees would evaporate the > head, slag the boat, and turn all the people aboard into slightly-impure > carbon ash, so I guess it wouldn't be an issue anymore. Problem solved, > forever!... maybe not exactly in the way I'd like, but those are just > small details. :) > > > It seems that the motion of the boat, and use of mechanisms in the > > reactor might lead to some stirring without energy input. Like the > > ball in the bottom of a spray paint can. > > I live on a boat in the water, and have for many years. I use a > composting head, daily. The reason I recommended the Humanure book is > because all of the author's data and conclusions support and reflect my > experience perfectly; there's no guesswork involved. He knows far more > about it than I ever will, and describes it very well; you really should > read it if you want to learn about it. > > > The 2 year figure might be if it is left to sit in a bucket, > > anerobically. > > I'm afraid that your assumption is wrong. The stated figure is for > compost that has been well-aerated and turned regularly (as per the > setup described in the above book.) Heat is provided by the compost > itself - I've seen compost piles smoke when they had too much manure > added to them - and there's more than plenty of energy available for > heating in a normal compost pile. More heat would only kill the process. > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Les vid�os qui font jaser! R�solution HD aussi offerte! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23056|23056|2010-04-14 23:02:13|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|instaboat aluminium folding dinghy|does anyone have use the instaboat aluminium folding dinghy? there is one for sale in my area at a reasonable price. certainly usefull on a sailbot, it really doesn't take place when folded flat. is there a down side? Martin.| 23057|23031|2010-04-15 00:37:25|Matt Malone|Re: Free Energy at Sea|Yes, a pendulum on a special* alternator ! The boat has the capability to move tons, and so long as it is low, and stays low, and does not translate forward an back a great distance, it would be negligible in stability calculations. Of course one must be able to lock it off for safety. There are two main principles by which it would work: Simple tilt, and variations in boat speed. In any case, say we got 1 metric ton accelerated to 1/6 meter per second brought to a stop again generating energy when it was stopped, once every 3 seconds, that is about 1 foot of run total I think. That is about 15 J per deceleration, or 5 Watts... pretty pitiful. If one could get the ton up to 1 m/s (requiring about 1.5m of run), that is 160 Watts. Not a lot. Take the example of the entire boat on a 1 meter swell / 6 seconds, and generating electricity on every rise and fall, by both lifting and then pushing down 1 metric ton against the bottom, that is 3,200 Watts, a lot more. There would be losses in any case in the conversion of the mechanical to electrical energy. I am thinking the more interesting application for a pendulum however would be low-power draws accomplished entirely mechanically, like a pendulum hooked to a bellows for forced ventilation through suitable, small-aperture, water-rejecting ventilators in rougher weather. Entirely mechanical, no energy conversion, and in smoother weather, you can have larger apertures open anyway. Matt *Special, for those others who might be prone to expound on how a regular alternator would be unsuitable. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 22:45:43 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Waste Treatment As corrsion of metal doubles for every ten degree rise in temperature, it doesn't take a doubling of temperature from absolute zero for some reactions to double. My head is in the heated part of the cabin, but in winter it doesn;t stay heated fultime. Alongside a dock with electric heat, it may, but who wants to live like that? As for elctrical energy, I stil hope to experiment some day with a pendelum hooked to an alternator, for free energy at sea. _________________________________________________________________ Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23058|23058|2010-04-15 06:25:53|ANDREW AIREY|Waste treatment|Phew!!!(So to speak)My question seems to have stirred the s**t.Composting toilets would certainly be an alternative and the information is appreciated but I thought the idea with an Airhead was that the solids are separated from the liquid and then dried for disposal.Connecting the toilet to the engine air intake(via suitable filter(s))was merely to improve the airflow,the air entering via the usual outlet pipe which works as normal when the engine isn't running and also obviates any vacuum assisted accidents. cheers Andy Airey PS Has anybody ever put kneeler boards alongside the bowl so you can at least kneel to have a pee.Being 6'7" does have some downsides Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 23059|23058|2010-04-15 07:21:30|edward|Waste treatment|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > PS Has anybody ever put kneeler boards alongside the bowl so you can at least kneel to have a pee.Being 6'7" does have some downside. I thought that is what the hand basin is for Andy. Regards, Ted| 23060|23058|2010-04-15 11:54:21|theboilerflue|Waste treatment|I just brought the toilet up as high as I possibly could. > PS Has anybody ever put kneeler boards alongside the bowl so you can at least kneel to have a pee.Being 6'7" does have some downsides > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 23061|3207|2010-04-15 14:28:32|brentswain38|Re: Stability|Thats what the innertube vents are for. They fold over when solid water hits them , like a check valve. No matter how rough it gets, you still need air, and still need to breath.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I was planning on at some point finding some larger PVC pipe ends and caps, to epoxy into my vents on the boat so that I can close the boat completely in really heavy weather. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > That is why I have always absolutely refused to build or design openings far off the centreline. The fact that she stayed afloat ( unlike the Concordia) for six hours, says a lot about the water tightness of the hull and the advantages of keeping openings close to the centreline. The Concordia,which never had that advantage, sunk quickly, and the Albatross sank even quicker in the same situation.Had they been designed with the same considerations as Ullr, they would have had no problems. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > I would have tought that after a certain time in a knock down position, water would start to enter somewhere in a sailboat (companion way, heater chemney...). 6 hours seems a very long time, > > > > > > Martin. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > > > > > Here is an anecdote to make you think. > > > > > > > > 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since then. > > > > There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. > > > > > > > > He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. > > > > > > > > They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. > > > > > > > > Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. > > > > > > > > That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable with enough inappropriate tophamper. > > > > > > > > Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough passage. What a hassle. > > > > > > > > As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very interesting to me. > > > > > > > > > > | 23062|23056|2010-04-15 14:31:31|brentswain38|Re: instaboat aluminium folding dinghy|Friends who bought the aluminium one, were not happy wih it. My neghbour , who has used the plastic version for 20 years, mostly full time , is extremely happy with it. Unfortunately they don't make the one without the transom any more, or he'd buy a new on in an instant. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > does anyone have use the instaboat aluminium folding dinghy? > there is one for sale in my area at a reasonable price. > certainly usefull on a sailbot, it really doesn't take place when folded flat. > is there a down side? > > Martin. > | 23063|23058|2010-04-15 14:39:44|brentswain38|Waste treatment|You could hook up a super fan to the starter switch , so it would boost the air flow dramaticaly when the engine was running. Much simpler .The tiny computer fan would simply blow the air thru the larger fan when the engine was not running. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Phew!!!(So to speak)My question seems to have stirred the s**t.Composting toilets would certainly be an alternative and the information is appreciated but I thought the idea with an Airhead was that the solids are separated from the liquid and then dried for disposal.Connecting the toilet to the engine air intake(via suitable filter(s))was merely to improve the airflow,the air entering via the usual outlet pipe which works as normal when the engine isn't running and also obviates any vacuum assisted accidents. > cheers > Andy Airey > PS Has anybody ever put kneeler boards alongside the bowl so you can at least kneel to have a pee.Being 6'7" does have some downsides > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 23064|23056|2010-04-15 16:15:10|Mark Hamill|Re: instaboat aluminium folding dinghy|ive got an article on how to make a folding dinghy from Wooden Boat if wanted. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23065|23031|2010-04-15 21:23:53|GP|VW engine and dry exhaust|I have an AH... that actually sounds like a good idea... the compartment would be sufficient as it really gets warm in mine and would be a way of ventilation when on diesel running... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Possible daft suggestion but if using an Airhead type toilet might it work to take the air intake to the engine(not the engine compartment) via the toilet and thus improving the drying action of the toilet.Possibly useful on inland waterways where sewage disposal is regulated but facilities not provided i.e allegedly much of Europe > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 23066|23056|2010-04-15 21:41:10|GP|Re: instaboat aluminium folding dinghy|Suggest you take a ride first... tried em and for me... would not buy one even at a steal... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > does anyone have use the instaboat aluminium folding dinghy? > there is one for sale in my area at a reasonable price. > certainly usefull on a sailbot, it really doesn't take place when folded flat. > is there a down side? > > Martin. > | 23067|23056|2010-04-15 23:30:09|maxcamirand|Re: instaboat aluminium folding dinghy|Hi Mark, I'm interested in the article. Do you have a scan you could upload? Regards, -Max --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > ive got an article on how to make a folding dinghy from Wooden Boat if wanted. MarkH > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23068|23056|2010-04-16 08:35:34|martin demers|Re: instaboat aluminium folding dinghy|maybe you are not talking of the same boat; there is "instaboat" made in Quebec and also "porta-boat" made in USA From what I have found the instaboat is made only in aluminium and available in two versions; pirogue(without transom) and a model with a widertransom. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:31:12 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: instaboat aluminium folding dinghy Friends who bought the aluminium one, were not happy wih it. My neghbour , who has used the plastic version for 20 years, mostly full time , is extremely happy with it. Unfortunately they don't make the one without the transom any more, or he'd buy a new on in an instant. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > does anyone have use the instaboat aluminium folding dinghy? > there is one for sale in my area at a reasonable price. > certainly usefull on a sailbot, it really doesn't take place when folded flat. > is there a down side? > > Martin. > _________________________________________________________________ Emmenez vos contacts faire un tour. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724472 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23069|23069|2010-04-16 09:08:29|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|tar in the keel|I am now cleaning the bottom inside my keel. It has about 4 to 6 in. of solid tar that was place there. It is not easy to remove. I have to heat with the propane torch by outside under the keel to soften it and come back inside to hit on top of the tar with a long steel bar! Does anybody saw that before , is it common practice to put tar in the keel of a steel boat? For deadsounding? or waterproofness maybe? I also have to squeeze the keel to it's original width, beacause the boat had been sitting unattended for a long period and it was raining inside and it froze enough during winter to open the keel a few inches. I will use a filetted rod to do that. Martin.| 23070|23056|2010-04-16 12:17:58|cumorglas|Re: instaboat aluminium folding dinghy|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > ive got an article on how to make a folding dinghy from Wooden Boat if wanted. MarkH > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > i remember that issue. the author copied the panels onto fairly thin ply. then glassed and epoxied them and used wetsuit neoprene and 3m 5200 to stick it together. how long ago was that? i was in coleghe at the time building wooden boats. a classmate and i read the article and thought if they can copy a plastic boat in wood, why can't we build a stitch and glue boat in steel or aluminum. steel would be cheaper. we let our professors talk us out of it. shows what good comes from listening to teachers in school.| 23071|9840|2010-04-16 13:02:27|romeawde|BS 26|Hello, I'm very interested in the BS 26, but I have a number of questions; First. I was wondering if anyone has built one, with a low budget in mind and what one would really cost, with using salvaged parts and rigging, really would like to know what the hull cost, as I think I can fiqure the interior costs and systems. Looking at Catalina 27 rigging to use. Second. I was looking at some pictures of Tom's and noted that the floor frames were sticking up above the floor and looked to be a real toe buster, I haven't been able to find pics of a finished interior to see how that has been delt with. Third. I was also looking at the tubing that runs from the large deck beam to the floors that seems to intrude into the seating areas, I am hoping a keel stepped mast can cure this, as I can only think they are there for the deck stepped mast?? Has anyone tryed something different? Thanks for any feed back on these questions in advance, I'm really not sure if building a boat in this size range is really an advantage over just buying one and fixing it up. With the current dollar and depressed boat market, there are some great deals out there for this size of boat. Thanks, Rome| 23072|23056|2010-04-16 13:04:09|Mark Hamill|Re: instaboat aluminium folding dinghy|"Build the Sandwich Tern" Neal EricksonWooden Boat March/April 1995 #123 page 70 Notes the total cost then at $650 127 3/4 long by 463/4 beam and dimensions can be changed [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23073|23069|2010-04-16 13:26:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: tar in the keel|On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 01:04:44PM -0000, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > I am now cleaning the bottom inside my keel. It has about 4 to 6 > in. of solid tar that was place there. It is not easy to remove. I > have to heat with the propane torch by outside under the keel to > soften it and come back inside to hit on top of the tar with a long > steel bar! Does anybody saw that before , is it common practice to > put tar in the keel of a steel boat? For deadsounding? or > waterproofness maybe? Waterproofing is what I figure. Ulysses came with a thick layer of tar in the main bilge, and after some consideration, I actually like it that way: I see it as extra insurance in case the hull somehow manages to rust through. Besides, it was stiff enough that I could drive screws into it; that's what holds my main bilge pump in place. My ballast, from what I can see, is lead bricks with tar poured over them. It's worth noting that when I replated the boat, the areas around the ballast and the main bilge didn't have any leaks in them. The rest of the hull below the waterline had pinholes and rusted-through areas all over it. (The previous owner's idea of rust repair was to slap a fiberglass patch over it. Oh, and - I didn't know this until I read his log - the best thing for a steel boat below the waterline is a single coat of house paint. Betcha the rest of you didn't know that either.) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23074|9840|2010-04-16 15:24:05|Carl Anderson|Re: BS 26|I know that Evan Shaler has built at least 2 of these hulls. Both were finished by Winston Bushnell. One was taken through the northwest passage by Winston. The other is owned by Winston's daughter, Kim. I don't recall the floor frames sticking out anywhere on the interior. Carl sv-mom.com romeawde wrote: > > > Hello, I'm very interested in the BS 26, but I have a number of questions; > > First. I was wondering if anyone has built one, with a low budget in > mind and what one would really cost, with using salvaged parts and > rigging, really would like to know what the hull cost, as I think I can > fiqure the interior costs and systems. Looking at Catalina 27 rigging to > use. > > Second. I was looking at some pictures of Tom's and noted that the floor > frames were sticking up above the floor and looked to be a real toe > buster, I haven't been able to find pics of a finished interior to see > how that has been delt with. > > Third. I was also looking at the tubing that runs from the large deck > beam to the floors that seems to intrude into the seating areas, I am > hoping a keel stepped mast can cure this, as I can only think they are > there for the deck stepped mast?? Has anyone tryed something different? > > Thanks for any feed back on these questions in advance, I'm really not > sure if building a boat in this size range is really an advantage over > just buying one and fixing it up. With the current dollar and depressed > boat market, there are some great deals out there for this size of boat. > > Thanks, Rome > > | 23075|23056|2010-04-16 20:55:10|James Pronk|Re: instaboat aluminium folding dinghy|Last year I built an eight foot stitch and glue plywood boat out of 2.3mm aluminum. Stitch and tig would be the right name for it. The boat works great but I think I would use MIG rather then TIG. James --- On Fri, 4/16/10, cumorglas wrote: From: cumorglas Subject: [origamiboats] Re: instaboat aluminium folding dinghy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, April 16, 2010, 12:17 PM   --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > ive got an article on how to make a folding dinghy from Wooden Boat if wanted. MarkH > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > i remember that issue. the author copied the panels onto fairly thin ply. then glassed and epoxied them and used wetsuit neoprene and 3m 5200 to stick it together. how long ago was that? i was in coleghe at the time building wooden boats. a classmate and i read the article and thought if they can copy a plastic boat in wood, why can't we build a stitch and glue boat in steel or aluminum. steel would be cheaper. we let our professors talk us out of it. shows what good comes from listening to teachers in school. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23076|9840|2010-04-16 21:11:42|Tom Mann|Re: BS 26|Hello On my 26 I added the floor frames and I didnt antisipate having to lower the sole that low but I needed just a tad more headroom. little more camber on the roof and another inch or two on the cabin sides would have been perfect . I'm 6 foot tall As far as I know Winstons boat was modified quite a bit and 28' foot long. Tom On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Carl Anderson wrote: > I know that Evan Shaler has built at least 2 of these hulls. > Both were finished by Winston Bushnell. > One was taken through the northwest passage by Winston. > The other is owned by Winston's daughter, Kim. > I don't recall the floor frames sticking out anywhere on the interior. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > romeawde wrote: > > > > > > Hello, I'm very interested in the BS 26, but I have a number of > questions; > > > > First. I was wondering if anyone has built one, with a low budget in > > mind and what one would really cost, with using salvaged parts and > > rigging, really would like to know what the hull cost, as I think I can > > fiqure the interior costs and systems. Looking at Catalina 27 rigging to > > use. > > > > Second. I was looking at some pictures of Tom's and noted that the floor > > frames were sticking up above the floor and looked to be a real toe > > buster, I haven't been able to find pics of a finished interior to see > > how that has been delt with. > > > > Third. I was also looking at the tubing that runs from the large deck > > beam to the floors that seems to intrude into the seating areas, I am > > hoping a keel stepped mast can cure this, as I can only think they are > > there for the deck stepped mast?? Has anyone tryed something different? > > > > Thanks for any feed back on these questions in advance, I'm really not > > sure if building a boat in this size range is really an advantage over > > just buying one and fixing it up. With the current dollar and depressed > > boat market, there are some great deals out there for this size of boat. > > > > Thanks, Rome > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23077|23058|2010-04-16 21:15:31|James Pronk|Re: Waste treatment|You could use a funnel and some hose. James --- On Thu, 4/15/10, edward wrote: From: edward Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Waste treatment To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 7:16 AM   --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > PS Has anybody ever put kneeler boards alongside the bowl so you can at least kneel to have a pee.Being 6'7" does have some downside. I thought that is what the hand basin is for Andy. Regards, Ted __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23078|9840|2010-04-17 07:57:17|kimdxx|Re: BS 26|Hi Rome ... I'm about to start building a Swain 26. I had a bit of trouble finding a low-cost place to build; but that has now been resolved. My steel will be delivered, and I'll be starting work on it, in about 5 weeks. I'll probably start a blog devoted to its construction, with progress photos, etc. I should have that online about the end of June, and I'll post the URL here then if you're interested. I don't know what the final cost of my 26-footer will be; but (because I'm mostly poverty-stricken :-)) I do know that it's going to be an ultra-low-budget project for me. When it's finished, I fully expect to be able to say that it cost very little for the sound little yacht that I hope to end up with. Tom has very kindly posted in this group a huge amount of extremely useful and very informative details about the building of his 26-footer. I see you've already found the photos of his boat, and if you do a search for "tazmannusa" you'll find all his posts here. He occasionally mentions what different components cost him. I vaguely remember reading in an earlier message that an ordinary compression post could be substituted for the deck beam & pipes to the chine. I think the idea is that by eliminating the compression post you get a clear run through the middle of the boat, which has its advantages. Keel-stepped masts can leak a bit where they pierce the deck. I think I would rather not have the compression post, so I'll be building the mast support as it's drawn. However, I would check with Brent before making a change like that. And yes, there are thousands of unbelievably cheap used yachts for sale in this size range. There's no doubt the second-hand market is absolutely flooded with them. However, I decided to build rather than buy because I couldn't find any other boat less than 30ft that had the 4 things that I really wanted: steel hull, twin keels, transom-hung rudder, and (most importantly) an inside steering station. As a bonus I'm building a strong, well-proven and very seaworthy design. Anyway, building it will be fun! :-) It's only a little boat, and it shouldn't take too long until it's in the water. Anyway, best wishes if you decide to build one too, Rome. Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com ______________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "romeawde" wrote: BS 26 Hello, I'm very interested in the BS 26, but I have a number of questions; First. I was wondering if anyone has built one, with a low budget in mind and what one would really cost, with using salvaged parts and rigging, really would like to know what the hull cost, as I think I can fiqure the interior costs and systems. Looking at Catalina 27 rigging to use. Second. I was looking at some pictures of Tom's and noted that the floor frames were sticking up above the floor and looked to be a real toe buster, I haven't been able to find pics of a finished interior to see how that has been delt with. Third. I was also looking at the tubing that runs from the large deck beam to the floors that seems to intrude into the seating areas, I am hoping a keel stepped mast can cure this, as I can only think they are there for the deck stepped mast?? Has anyone tryed something different? Thanks for any feed back on these questions in advance, I'm really not sure if building a boat in this size range is really an advantage over just buying one and fixing it up. With the current dollar and depressed boat market, there are some great deals out there for this size of boat. Thanks, Rome ______________________________ | 23079|23058|2010-04-17 08:04:29|scott|Waste treatment|Drying the compost out in the air head or natures head to much is not recommend. it has to hit a medium level of moisture vs dryness to function optimally. They recommend if you get it to dry to dampen it back a little bit with a spray bottle.| 23080|23058|2010-04-17 09:03:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: Waste treatment|On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 12:03:50PM -0000, scott wrote: > Drying the compost out in the air head or natures head to much is not > recommend. it has to hit a medium level of moisture vs dryness to > function optimally. They recommend if you get it to dry to dampen it > back a little bit with a spray bottle. True enough. In fact, too little moisture in the solids compartment makes turning the crank about as easy as grinding rocks. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23081|9840|2010-04-17 17:49:33|James Pronk|Re: BS 26|Kim Were are you building? Were are you located? James --- On Sat, 4/17/10, kimdxx wrote: From: kimdxx Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, April 17, 2010, 7:53 AM   Hi Rome ... I'm about to start building a Swain 26. I had a bit of trouble finding a low-cost place to build; but that has now been resolved. My steel will be delivered, and I'll be starting work on it, in about 5 weeks. I'll probably start a blog devoted to its construction, with progress photos, etc. I should have that online about the end of June, and I'll post the URL here then if you're interested. I don't know what the final cost of my 26-footer will be; but (because I'm mostly poverty-stricken :-)) I do know that it's going to be an ultra-low-budget project for me. When it's finished, I fully expect to be able to say that it cost very little for the sound little yacht that I hope to end up with. Tom has very kindly posted in this group a huge amount of extremely useful and very informative details about the building of his 26-footer. I see you've already found the photos of his boat, and if you do a search for "tazmannusa" you'll find all his posts here. He occasionally mentions what different components cost him. I vaguely remember reading in an earlier message that an ordinary compression post could be substituted for the deck beam & pipes to the chine. I think the idea is that by eliminating the compression post you get a clear run through the middle of the boat, which has its advantages. Keel-stepped masts can leak a bit where they pierce the deck. I think I would rather not have the compression post, so I'll be building the mast support as it's drawn. However, I would check with Brent before making a change like that. And yes, there are thousands of unbelievably cheap used yachts for sale in this size range. There's no doubt the second-hand market is absolutely flooded with them. However, I decided to build rather than buy because I couldn't find any other boat less than 30ft that had the 4 things that I really wanted: steel hull, twin keels, transom-hung rudder, and (most importantly) an inside steering station. As a bonus I'm building a strong, well-proven and very seaworthy design. Anyway, building it will be fun! :-) It's only a little boat, and it shouldn't take too long until it's in the water. Anyway, best wishes if you decide to build one too, Rome. Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com ____________ _________ _________ --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "romeawde" wrote: BS 26 Hello, I'm very interested in the BS 26, but I have a number of questions; First. I was wondering if anyone has built one, with a low budget in mind and what one would really cost, with using salvaged parts and rigging, really would like to know what the hull cost, as I think I can fiqure the interior costs and systems. Looking at Catalina 27 rigging to use. Second. I was looking at some pictures of Tom's and noted that the floor frames were sticking up above the floor and looked to be a real toe buster, I haven't been able to find pics of a finished interior to see how that has been delt with. Third. I was also looking at the tubing that runs from the large deck beam to the floors that seems to intrude into the seating areas, I am hoping a keel stepped mast can cure this, as I can only think they are there for the deck stepped mast?? Has anyone tryed something different? Thanks for any feed back on these questions in advance, I'm really not sure if building a boat in this size range is really an advantage over just buying one and fixing it up. With the current dollar and depressed boat market, there are some great deals out there for this size of boat. Thanks, Rome ____________ _________ _________ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23082|23082|2010-04-18 00:45:51|rd_cedar|Frameless, Folding twin keel, 10m?|http://www.steel-yacht.com/ Check it out: 'Analytic 10 Steel', uses frameless, plate first construction, but it's not origami. Moreover, it has chines. Without darts or frames how do the plates come together? Check out those folding twin keels!! The compression loads must be great, so what are those struts that they don't buckle under such compression?!? I would appreciate any comments on this certified class A cruiser. Can anyone figure out the locking mechanism on those struts? And what about those hinges? They look like aileron-wing aircraft hinges. How do they withstand the shear forces? Unfortunately, their contact link doesn't work, and their discussion forum is not up. I can't figure out how to reach 'em.| 23083|9840|2010-04-18 05:12:35|kimdxx|Re: BS 26|Hi James ... I'm in Brisbane, Australia. I'll be building my 26-footer on a small farm, just outside Brisbane, owned by a friend. It's about 20 minutes drive from where I live, so will be pretty convenient. The only downside is that there's no power to the building site, so I've bought a cheap (all-Chinese-made) 10 kVA petrol generator, which hopefully should run everything I need do the job. Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com ______________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: Kim Were are you building? Were are you located? James ______________________________ | 23084|9840|2010-04-18 20:01:39|Gary H. Lucas|Re: BS 26|I guess I am wondering why you didn't buy a welder generator? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "kimdxx" To: Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 5:12 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 > > Hi James ... > > I'm in Brisbane, Australia. > > I'll be building my 26-footer on a small farm, just > outside Brisbane, owned by a friend. It's about 20 > minutes drive from where I live, so will be pretty > convenient. The only downside is that there's no power > to the building site, so I've bought a cheap > (all-Chinese-made) 10 kVA petrol generator, which > hopefully should run everything I need do the job. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > ______________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Kim > Were are you building? Were are you located? > James > ______________________________ > > > > > | 23085|9840|2010-04-18 20:36:42|martin demers|Re: BS 26|I am using an old Lincoln Weldan 225A welder/generator , powered by a Briggs 16 hp, to fix my boat.Very usefull. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gary.lucas@... Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:01:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 I guess I am wondering why you didn't buy a welder generator? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "kimdxx" To: Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 5:12 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 > > Hi James ... > > I'm in Brisbane, Australia. > > I'll be building my 26-footer on a small farm, just > outside Brisbane, owned by a friend. It's about 20 > minutes drive from where I live, so will be pretty > convenient. The only downside is that there's no power > to the building site, so I've bought a cheap > (all-Chinese-made) 10 kVA petrol generator, which > hopefully should run everything I need do the job. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > ______________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Kim > Were are you building? Were are you located? > James > ______________________________ > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Messenger sur votre t�l�phone = MI sur la route http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724474 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23086|9840|2010-04-19 00:32:59|kimdxx|Re: BS 26|Hi Gary ... Yes, I did consider a welder-generator; but such units over here are fairly large and expensive (even for the smallest ones). I didn't go down that path mostly because of their relatively high cost. Also, I wanted an inverter-type welder, and I couldn't find any small engine-driven inverter welders. As I was going to need some sort of standalone petrol generator anyway (to run other tools and stuff), I figured I may as well use it to run the welder too. The welding machine I ended up with is one of those 3-in-1 inverter units: 160 amp DC TIG, 160 amp DC stick/MMA, and a 40 amp plasma cutter, all built into the one unit. 160 amp for the stick is a bit on the low side; but as my 26-footer is built almost entirely of only 3mm plate (and I'll consequently be using mostly 2.5mm electrodes), it should be more than enough. The 3-in-1 unit is small, easy to carry, very light, and cost next to nothing considering what's in it. Because it cost so little it's probably a Chinese export; but its build quality and appearance seem great. It's an excellent welder in practice: I think it's maybe the "smoothest", easiest stick welder I've ever used! Very nice. The plasma cutter can allegedly cut through 12mm plate, and it cleanly cut the 6mm plate that I tested it on like a hot knife through butter! I'm impressed! The plasma cutter also needs a bit of compressed air to operate (but not a lot: only 2.8 CFM @ 58 PSI). I bought a small 2HP/1500W compressor which easily supplies that. The generator has no trouble running the plasma cutter, the air compressor, and my coffee pot, all at the same time. Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com ______________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: I guess I am wondering why you didn't buy a welder generator? Gary H. Lucas ______________________________ | 23087|9840|2010-04-19 01:03:08|theboilerflue|Re: BS 26|Could you give the specifics on the 3-in-1 welder please? Always curious about those things and if they end up being worth it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kimdxx" wrote: > > > Hi Gary ... > > Yes, I did consider a welder-generator; but such units over here > are fairly large and expensive (even for the smallest ones). I > didn't go down that path mostly because of their relatively high > cost. > > Also, I wanted an inverter-type welder, and I couldn't find any > small engine-driven inverter welders. > > As I was going to need some sort of standalone petrol generator > anyway (to run other tools and stuff), I figured I may as > well use it to run the welder too. > > The welding machine I ended up with is one of those 3-in-1 > inverter units: 160 amp DC TIG, 160 amp DC stick/MMA, and a 40 > amp plasma cutter, all built into the one unit. 160 amp for the > stick is a bit on the low side; but as my 26-footer is built > almost entirely of only 3mm plate (and I'll consequently be > using mostly 2.5mm electrodes), it should be more than enough. > > The 3-in-1 unit is small, easy to carry, very light, and cost > next to nothing considering what's in it. Because it cost so > little it's probably a Chinese export; but its build quality and > appearance seem great. It's an excellent welder in practice: I > think it's maybe the "smoothest", easiest stick welder I've ever > used! Very nice. > > The plasma cutter can allegedly cut through 12mm plate, and it > cleanly cut the 6mm plate that I tested it on like a hot knife > through butter! I'm impressed! The plasma cutter also needs a bit > of compressed air to operate (but not a lot: only 2.8 CFM @ > 58 PSI). I bought a small 2HP/1500W compressor which easily > supplies that. The generator has no trouble running the plasma > cutter, the air compressor, and my coffee pot, all at the same > time. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > ______________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I guess I am wondering why you didn't buy a welder generator? > > Gary H. Lucas > ______________________________ > | 23088|9840|2010-04-19 02:28:40|kimdxx|Re: BS 26|Hi Haidan ... I bought the welder from an Australian eBay merchant. This is a link to the same seller and exactly the same welder I got: http://tinyurl.com/y5g3lqn All the specs are on the above page. It definitely works as advertised. I'm pretty pleased with it. Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com ______________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: Could you give the specifics on the 3-in-1 welder please? Always curious about those things and if they end up being worth it. ______________________________ | 23089|9840|2010-04-19 02:59:07|David Frantz|Re: BS 26|Actually your approach is a really good one if you have the money to buy an inverter based welder. The welders are very efficient and some are known for excellent arc quality. Plus if you are smart you buy a generator that can go into you boat easily. The really nice inverters are also usable on any common power source no matter where you are anchored. Thus it is always available to you for repairs but yet will not take up a lot of space aboard. The problem though is the expense when you can pick up a buzz box for $100. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 19, 2010, at 12:32 AM, kimdxx wrote: > > Hi Gary ... > > Yes, I did consider a welder-generator; but such units over here > are fairly large and expensive (even for the smallest ones). I > didn't go down that path mostly because of their relatively high > cost. > > Also, I wanted an inverter-type welder, and I couldn't find any > small engine-driven inverter welders. > > As I was going to need some sort of standalone petrol generator > anyway (to run other tools and stuff), I figured I may as > well use it to run the welder too. > > The welding machine I ended up with is one of those 3-in-1 > inverter units: 160 amp DC TIG, 160 amp DC stick/MMA, and a 40 > amp plasma cutter, all built into the one unit. 160 amp for the > stick is a bit on the low side; but as my 26-footer is built > almost entirely of only 3mm plate (and I'll consequently be > using mostly 2.5mm electrodes), it should be more than enough. > > The 3-in-1 unit is small, easy to carry, very light, and cost > next to nothing considering what's in it. Because it cost so > little it's probably a Chinese export; but its build quality and > appearance seem great. It's an excellent welder in practice: I > think it's maybe the "smoothest", easiest stick welder I've ever > used! Very nice. > > The plasma cutter can allegedly cut through 12mm plate, and it > cleanly cut the 6mm plate that I tested it on like a hot knife > through butter! I'm impressed! The plasma cutter also needs a bit > of compressed air to operate (but not a lot: only 2.8 CFM @ > 58 PSI). I bought a small 2HP/1500W compressor which easily > supplies that. The generator has no trouble running the plasma > cutter, the air compressor, and my coffee pot, all at the same > time. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > ______________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > I guess I am wondering why you didn't buy a welder generator? > > Gary H. Lucas > ______________________________ > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23090|9840|2010-04-19 06:48:07|kimdxx|Re: BS 26|I already had an old buzz-box, David. But it's ancient, cranky and cantankerous (probably a bit like me! :-)), and all the good things I was hearing about inverter welders made them pretty appealing. But it was the included plasma cutter in the unit that really clinched the deal. I added up what I estimated it was going to cost me to use oxy-acetylene or oxy-propane cutting gear (gauges, regulators, cables, torches, gas, monthly rental on the bottles, etc), and the total came to at least the same or more than what I paid for the complete welder/plasma-cutter unit! And as a bonus the plasma cutter makes cleaner cuts with less distortion. So I've been telling myself that maybe I got at least the inverter-welder component of the unit for free! :-) Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com ______________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: Actually your approach is a really good one if you have the money to buy an inverter based welder. The welders are very efficient and some are known for excellent arc quality. Plus if you are smart you buy a generator that can go into you boat easily. The really nice inverters are also usable on any common power source no matter where you are anchored. Thus it is always available to you for repairs but yet will not take up a lot of space aboard. The problem though is the expense when you can pick up a buzz box for $100. David A Frantz ______________________________ | 23091|23010|2010-04-19 15:50:39|mrjsjlj@tpg.com.au|Re: address|> Hi I am of all places in Victoria on Vancouver Island (that's a long way from home for me) and have just spotted a boat in Oak Bay that looks an awful lot like one of Brent Swains boats so while I'm here and I don't have my groups password can I trouble you for your Address so I can send you some Canadian money for your book and if anyone can suggest some other boats to look at while I'm here,please do. Regards RG| 23092|23010|2010-04-19 16:02:18|brentswain38|Re: address|Yes there are two of my 36 footers in Oak Bay, last count, There is also one called "Ocean Boy", either at the fishermans wharf in Victoria or in Esquimault, at the moment.There may be more in Genoa Bay and Maple Bay, one at the Ladysmith Maritime Society's dock, one at the Nanaimo Yacht club, several in Nanaimo at the Newcastle Marina, one behind the Muddy waters pub in Nanaimo, several in Comox,Courtenay, one under construction in Coombs, at the fibreglas boat building place,just west of the jumping goat inn, and several in Cambell River. For a copy of my book , please send $20 plus $5 for Canadian postage to 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC V0R2V0 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mrjsjlj@... wrote: > > > > Hi I am of all places in Victoria on Vancouver Island (that's a long > way from home for me) and have just spotted a boat in Oak Bay that looks > an awful lot like one of Brent Swains boats so while I'm here and I > don't have my groups password can I trouble you for your Address so I > can send you some Canadian money for your book and if anyone can > suggest some other boats to look at while I'm here,please do. > Regards RG > | 23093|23010|2010-04-19 16:02:24|brentswain38|Re: address|Airmail postage to Australia is $14 for the book. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mrjsjlj@... wrote: > > > > Hi I am of all places in Victoria on Vancouver Island (that's a long > way from home for me) and have just spotted a boat in Oak Bay that looks > an awful lot like one of Brent Swains boats so while I'm here and I > don't have my groups password can I trouble you for your Address so I > can send you some Canadian money for your book and if anyone can > suggest some other boats to look at while I'm here,please do. > Regards RG > | 23094|9840|2010-04-19 16:02:42|brentswain38|Re: BS 26|Take the materials list from the files section to a steel supplier to get a price on steel. Then there's welding rod and epoxy. Interior on a boat that size can be quite cheap if done by scrounging. She is designed to take a Soling mainsail, which are cheap and plentiful. The mast supports are designed to maximise interior space. They should run from the inside deck edge to the chines.You could put a single support under the deck stepped mast if you prefer. That is far better than stepping the mast on the keel, with all the problems that brings. There is no need for the floor frames to stick up above the floor. With a bit of resourcefulness, the 26 could easily be built for under 10K, and you'd have a far better boat than most of the fibreglass boats on the market. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "romeawde" wrote: > > Hello, I'm very interested in the BS 26, but I have a number of questions; > > First. I was wondering if anyone has built one, with a low budget in mind and what one would really cost, with using salvaged parts and rigging, really would like to know what the hull cost, as I think I can fiqure the interior costs and systems. Looking at Catalina 27 rigging to use. > > Second. I was looking at some pictures of Tom's and noted that the floor frames were sticking up above the floor and looked to be a real toe buster, I haven't been able to find pics of a finished interior to see how that has been delt with. > > Third. I was also looking at the tubing that runs from the large deck beam to the floors that seems to intrude into the seating areas, I am hoping a keel stepped mast can cure this, as I can only think they are there for the deck stepped mast?? Has anyone tryed something different? > > Thanks for any feed back on these questions in advance, I'm really not sure if building a boat in this size range is really an advantage over just buying one and fixing it up. With the current dollar and depressed boat market, there are some great deals out there for this size of boat. > > Thanks, Rome > | 23095|9840|2010-04-20 14:56:51|theboilerflue|Re: BS 26|Yeah, I built most of my interior with scrounged plywood, I think I bought a total of 7 sheets of ply, at times I needed full size sheets, couple hundred bucks for plywood and a few hundred for screws and such, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if the money (650 bucks for 4 months) I paid for dock fees while building this last winter was larger than the cost of the interior. 3/4 plywood here is about 25-30 bucks thinner stuff gets cheaper, I'm told the plywood in the states is terrible and falls apart when it gets wet, but the stuff in canada has the same glue in all plywood and holds together even after floating in the ocean for a while. In fact some of my interior had seen some sea life before I got my hands on it (thanks brent). The dump is also a good source of plywood, sometime full sheets even. I used some scrap aluminium angle for brackets to hold most of my interior together and attach the plywood to the furring strips. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Take the materials list from the files section to a steel supplier to get a price on steel. Then there's welding rod and epoxy. Interior on a boat that size can be quite cheap if done by scrounging. She is designed to take a Soling mainsail, which are cheap and plentiful. > The mast supports are designed to maximise interior space. They should run from the inside deck edge to the chines.You could put a single support under the deck stepped mast if you prefer. That is far better than stepping the mast on the keel, with all the problems that brings. > There is no need for the floor frames to stick up above the floor. > With a bit of resourcefulness, the 26 could easily be built for under 10K, and you'd have a far better boat than most of the fibreglass boats on the market. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "romeawde" wrote: > > > > Hello, I'm very interested in the BS 26, but I have a number of questions; > > > > First. I was wondering if anyone has built one, with a low budget in mind and what one would really cost, with using salvaged parts and rigging, really would like to know what the hull cost, as I think I can fiqure the interior costs and systems. Looking at Catalina 27 rigging to use. > > > > Second. I was looking at some pictures of Tom's and noted that the floor frames were sticking up above the floor and looked to be a real toe buster, I haven't been able to find pics of a finished interior to see how that has been delt with. > > > > Third. I was also looking at the tubing that runs from the large deck beam to the floors that seems to intrude into the seating areas, I am hoping a keel stepped mast can cure this, as I can only think they are there for the deck stepped mast?? Has anyone tryed something different? > > > > Thanks for any feed back on these questions in advance, I'm really not sure if building a boat in this size range is really an advantage over just buying one and fixing it up. With the current dollar and depressed boat market, there are some great deals out there for this size of boat. > > > > Thanks, Rome > > > | 23096|23096|2010-04-20 17:05:11|Ben Okopnik|The future of watermakers?|http://web.mit.edu/press/2010/desalination.html Gravity-fed, self-cleaning, *no* membrane to replace, and about 4gph for an 8"-diameter wafer at "about as much power as a conventional lightbulb". Even if we postulate a 150W bulb, that's about 13A at 12v. I'd pay that for 4 gallons of water - especially in mid-ocean. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23097|22979|2010-04-20 21:21:30|Gord Schnell|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Sorry about "no reply", Martin. I've been out of the country. The 1.9L should give you lots of power w/o the turbo. I'm expecting to have enough with my 1.6L and no turbo....if not...I'll reinstall the turbo. I could install a 12V fan and pump the air back out thru the cockpit combings, but I'll wait and see if it's necessary before going to the trouble. Gord On 7-Apr-10, at 4:28 PM, martin demers wrote: > > Gord, > I am happy to see it can be done that way, because the Bowman heat > exchanger is almost $1000.00 plus the trouble of finding parts for > it later on. I have a VW 1.9l TD in my VW camper, I installed it > myself, they are easy and cheap to rebuilt . I think it is the > cheaper way to get more HP from a diesel in a boat. If I use the a > 1.9l less the turbo , I should get around 60 to 65 Hp, more than > enough! > Couldn't you instal a little 12 volts fan to move the air of the > engine bay? > Also, do you only need the VW water pump or do you need another one > to move the antifreeze liquid? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gschnell@... > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:03:27 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > Gord here....I have a VW 1.6L in my BS40. I'm running dry exhaust > without the heat exchanger manifold. It runs well that way, but you > do accumulate more heat in the engine bay. I have sleeved the entire > exhaust (less the actual manifold) with a fiberglass "sleeve" of > 1.5" thickness. The insulation is covered with a foil heat shield. > This material is available thru the construction industry and is > used for heating/cooling systems in commercial buildings. The system > was installed prior to foam insulation application and is almost > entirely "buried" under the foam. Very quiet!! > > Gord > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: mdemers2005@... > > Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010 2:44 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> There was many posting before on dry exhaust and also Vw > >> engines in sailboats. I would like to know if there is anyone > >> using the VW engine with a dry exhaust. > >> I want to know if in this configuration you keep the heat > >> exchanger manifold or if you use the VW exhaust manifold as on a > >> VW car? > >> > >> Martin. > >> > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Obtenez la version mobile de Messenger ici > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724473 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23098|9840|2010-04-20 22:25:37|James Pronk|Re: BS 26|Haidan How many full sheets of plywood would you think it would take to put in an interior like yours? James --- On Tue, 4/20/10, theboilerflue wrote: From: theboilerflue Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 2:56 PM   Yeah, I built most of my interior with scrounged plywood, I think I bought a total of 7 sheets of ply, at times I needed full size sheets, couple hundred bucks for plywood and a few hundred for screws and such, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if the money (650 bucks for 4 months) I paid for dock fees while building this last winter was larger than the cost of the interior. 3/4 plywood here is about 25-30 bucks thinner stuff gets cheaper, I'm told the plywood in the states is terrible and falls apart when it gets wet, but the stuff in canada has the same glue in all plywood and holds together even after floating in the ocean for a while. In fact some of my interior had seen some sea life before I got my hands on it (thanks brent). The dump is also a good source of plywood, sometime full sheets even. I used some scrap aluminium angle for brackets to hold most of my interior together and attach the plywood to the furring strips. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Take the materials list from the files section to a steel supplier to get a price on steel. Then there's welding rod and epoxy. Interior on a boat that size can be quite cheap if done by scrounging. She is designed to take a Soling mainsail, which are cheap and plentiful. > The mast supports are designed to maximise interior space. They should run from the inside deck edge to the chines.You could put a single support under the deck stepped mast if you prefer. That is far better than stepping the mast on the keel, with all the problems that brings. > There is no need for the floor frames to stick up above the floor. > With a bit of resourcefulness, the 26 could easily be built for under 10K, and you'd have a far better boat than most of the fibreglass boats on the market. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "romeawde" wrote: > > > > Hello, I'm very interested in the BS 26, but I have a number of questions; > > > > First. I was wondering if anyone has built one, with a low budget in mind and what one would really cost, with using salvaged parts and rigging, really would like to know what the hull cost, as I think I can fiqure the interior costs and systems. Looking at Catalina 27 rigging to use. > > > > Second. I was looking at some pictures of Tom's and noted that the floor frames were sticking up above the floor and looked to be a real toe buster, I haven't been able to find pics of a finished interior to see how that has been delt with. > > > > Third. I was also looking at the tubing that runs from the large deck beam to the floors that seems to intrude into the seating areas, I am hoping a keel stepped mast can cure this, as I can only think they are there for the deck stepped mast?? Has anyone tryed something different? > > > > Thanks for any feed back on these questions in advance, I'm really not sure if building a boat in this size range is really an advantage over just buying one and fixing it up. With the current dollar and depressed boat market, there are some great deals out there for this size of boat. > > > > Thanks, Rome > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23099|22979|2010-04-21 05:43:42|boatwayupnorth|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Hi Gord and Martin, I remembered this discussion about VW diesels on another forum: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/diy-marinizing/volkswagen-jetta-1-6-how-many-hp-prop-calc-29793.html If you scroll down a bit they warn against removing the turbo. Thought you might be interested. Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Sorry about "no reply", Martin. I've been out of the country. The 1.9L > should give you lots of power w/o the turbo. I'm expecting to have > enough with my 1.6L and no turbo....if not...I'll reinstall the turbo. > I could install a 12V fan and pump the air back out thru the cockpit > combings, but I'll wait and see if it's necessary before going to the > trouble. > Gord > > On 7-Apr-10, at 4:28 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Gord, > > I am happy to see it can be done that way, because the Bowman heat > > exchanger is almost $1000.00 plus the trouble of finding parts for > > it later on. I have a VW 1.9l TD in my VW camper, I installed it > > myself, they are easy and cheap to rebuilt . I think it is the > > cheaper way to get more HP from a diesel in a boat. If I use the a > > 1.9l less the turbo , I should get around 60 to 65 Hp, more than > > enough! > > Couldn't you instal a little 12 volts fan to move the air of the > > engine bay? > > Also, do you only need the VW water pump or do you need another one > > to move the antifreeze liquid? > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: gschnell@... > > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:03:27 +1200 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > Gord here....I have a VW 1.6L in my BS40. I'm running dry exhaust > > without the heat exchanger manifold. It runs well that way, but you > > do accumulate more heat in the engine bay. I have sleeved the entire > > exhaust (less the actual manifold) with a fiberglass "sleeve" of > > 1.5" thickness. The insulation is covered with a foil heat shield. > > This material is available thru the construction industry and is > > used for heating/cooling systems in commercial buildings. The system > > was installed prior to foam insulation application and is almost > > entirely "buried" under the foam. Very quiet!! > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010 2:44 > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Hi, > > > >> > > > >> There was many posting before on dry exhaust and also Vw > > > >> engines in sailboats. I would like to know if there is anyone > > > >> using the VW engine with a dry exhaust. > > > >> I want to know if in this configuration you keep the heat > > > >> exchanger manifold or if you use the VW exhaust manifold as on a > > > >> VW car? > > > >> > > > >> Martin. > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Obtenez la version mobile de Messenger ici > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724473 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 23100|23096|2010-04-21 08:35:31|Gary H. Lucas|Re: The future of watermakers?|Ben, I happen to work in the waste water industry, but everything we do is based on membranes, ultrafilters, nanofilters and RO. Their are some huge strides being made in RO. They are now making membranes that use a lot less pressure for desalination, and the really big push is to develop membranes that can tolerate chlorine. Currently even a little chlorine is death for the membranes. Great progress is also being made on the pumping end too. There is an energy recovery device out now that has a rotor with 4 holes running lengthwise that uses the water like a piston to transfer the pressure from the concentrate return that is discharged to the incoming feed water. The device allows recovering about 90% of the energy required. So the power required for RO is dropping rapidly. The systems people build for their boats are hugely inefficient. But if you compare gallons of diesel to gallons of water it isn't a big problem. It's only a problem if you want say run it all on solar panels. Then, the efficiency becomes important. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: "Origami Boat list" Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: [origamiboats] The future of watermakers? > > http://web.mit.edu/press/2010/desalination.html > > Gravity-fed, self-cleaning, *no* membrane to replace, and about 4gph for > an 8"-diameter wafer at "about as much power as a conventional > lightbulb". Even if we postulate a 150W bulb, that's about 13A at 12v. > I'd pay that for 4 gallons of water - especially in mid-ocean. :) > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23101|9840|2010-04-21 15:24:32|theboilerflue|Re: BS 26|hmm... that's a hard question, let's see I used mostly 3/4" for all the main bulkhead type things in the cabinetry, the counter tops, and the pilot house floor, for the cabinets usually you can get two or sometimes three bulkhead sections out of a full sheet, which is the reason why I bought new sheets - I needed full size pieces. so for... The workbench to starboard there's five bulkheads (2) plus the top (1). The galley counter there are four (2) plus a large one on the end (1) plus the top (1). The Settee's main supports I was able to squeeze out of the remaining pieces from some of the other stuff and the top and sides probably adds up to two sheets at most (2) The enclosure for the head I pieced together from smaller chunks last summer but I think I'll redo it sometime in the future and make it jive better with the rest of the stuff now, but lets say two for the walls (2) and one for the inside floor/toilet mounting (1). The main mast supporting bulkheads are one each (2) My V-berth is real big but I was able to squeeze it out of a full sheet of 1/2" (1) and maybe another 3/4" for the supports underneath (1) There's a sorta unfinished hanging locker back of the V-berth that used maybe two sheets (2) The engine box used one sheet (1) The nav station thingy is built of maybe two sheets (2) Pilot house floor I used some of the off cuts. So that's a rough estimate for the bare shells of all the cabinets, I made all drawers mostly which takes a surprisingly large amount of plywood and I pieced them all together from scrounged stuff and I really guessing here but maybe I used 6 sheets for all my drawers (6) So a rough estimate would be about 15+ sheets of 3/4 and another 15 or so of various other thicknesses. It's hard to say, I only really kept track of the sheets I bought and not really the scrounged stuff that was in all sorts of different shapes, sizes and thicknesses. I also sorta kicked myself for not buying all my stainless screws online, there's some pretty good prices on ebay and such. I bought them all little bits at a time locally and could have saved a few hundred bucks if I had just gotten them all at once. Would recommend buying lots of a thousand, various length stainless #8 decking screws, 3/4" 1 1/2" 2" it's really quite amazing just how fast you can use up a 100 screws. Also if your going to build drawers, maybe tracking down some nice drawer runners for cheap wouldn't be a bad idea at the hardware store they try and sell them for 20-25 bucks a pair for any decent ones - I've got 15 drawers on my boat so made all the runner boards out of plywood strips, those metal runners would have made things easier, and faster, but 350 bucks is a lot to pay for just the runners, I did find some I pulled of some discarded computer desks I passed by on the sidewalk, you want the nice sealed ones, the ones that can work in any position, not the ones that jump off their track of course. The re-store had some they were selling for 15 bucks used which is still pretty steep. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Haidan > How many full sheets of plywood would you > think it would take to put in an interior like yours? > James > --- On Tue, 4/20/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > | 23102|23096|2010-04-21 18:12:13|Ben Okopnik|Re: The future of watermakers?|On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 08:35:23AM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Ben, > I happen to work in the waste water industry, but everything we do is based > on membranes, ultrafilters, nanofilters and RO. Their are some huge strides > being made in RO. Oh, I agree that RO has made amazing strides in the recent years. I'm certainly not as familiar with that industry as you are, but I do keep an ear to the ground. > They are now making membranes that use a lot less > pressure for desalination, and the really big push is to develop membranes > that can tolerate chlorine. Currently even a little chlorine is death for > the membranes. This little gadget handles chlorine without any problems (in fact, they purposely mixed sodium hypochlorite into their intake water, to get rid of the calcium ions). This page at MIT goes into even more detail, but in relatively simple language: http://www.rle.mit.edu/micronano/ICP_desalination.htm Figure 1b is a great illustration of the whole process. > Great progress is also being made on the pumping end too. There is an energy > recovery device out now that has a rotor with 4 holes running lengthwise > that uses the water like a piston to transfer the pressure from the > concentrate return that is discharged to the incoming feed water. The > device allows recovering about 90% of the energy required. So the power > required for RO is dropping rapidly. Nice! > The systems people build for their boats are hugely inefficient. But if you > compare gallons of diesel to gallons of water it isn't a big problem. It's > only a problem if you want say run it all on solar panels. Then, the > efficiency becomes important. I agree about the inefficiency; this is often what happens when you try to scale down an industrial process. This is going the other way - scaling up from a process that works in nano-quantities. Currently-available RO systems for boats have always bugged me, from an engineering as well as an esthetic perspective: the basic design they're using is clumsy and crude, and purifying water just shouldn't require *that* much complexity. I guess I'm looking for some elegance in the process, for lack of a better word... a mature technology looks very different from the experimental, crude approach; costs less, is efficient, and is easier to use. Small-scale RO still looks very "mechaniwockle" and crude; this gadget promises a much smaller package, a simpler usage process, and essentially no maintenance. I'm all for that. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23103|22979|2010-04-21 18:49:03|Gord Schnell|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Walter Thanks for the tip, Walter. I just spent a couple of hours reading about "Monica" and the problems they were having with their 1.6L VW diesel in their boat project. Excellent information!! These VW people are definitely plugged into the VW world. I was convinced I had a problem and was kicking myself, but thought I would check with my buddy Dwyane. He has a VW shop and spends his days repairing VWs and building dune buggies etc for racing. Dwayne says they have researched that issue extensively and has concluded that there is absolutely no difference between the turbo and non-turbo engines with the single exception of the oil jets spraying the piston skirts , from below, on the turbos. Apparently they exchange parts freely between turbo and non-turbo without problems. This is a big relief for me, because my core engine is a 1.6LTD, which I had machined. I then rebuilt it, minus the turbo...because I don't feel I need the extra HP and definitely don't need the extra heat. It runs really sweet, but, it has not yet been in the water, pushing a propellor. Guess I'll forge on ahead. There appears to be no problem. Hope I'm not wrong. Gord On 21-Apr-10, at 2:41 AM, boatwayupnorth wrote: > > > Hi Gord and Martin, > I remembered this discussion about VW diesels on another forum: > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/diy-marinizing/volkswagen-jetta-1-6-how-many-hp-prop-calc-29793.html > > If you scroll down a bit they warn against removing the turbo. > Thought you might be interested. > Walter > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell > wrote: > > > > Sorry about "no reply", Martin. I've been out of the country. The > 1.9L > > should give you lots of power w/o the turbo. I'm expecting to have > > enough with my 1.6L and no turbo....if not...I'll reinstall the > turbo. > > I could install a 12V fan and pump the air back out thru the cockpit > > combings, but I'll wait and see if it's necessary before going to > the > > trouble. > > Gord > > > > On 7-Apr-10, at 4:28 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > Gord, > > > I am happy to see it can be done that way, because the Bowman heat > > > exchanger is almost $1000.00 plus the trouble of finding parts for > > > it later on. I have a VW 1.9l TD in my VW camper, I installed it > > > myself, they are easy and cheap to rebuilt . I think it is the > > > cheaper way to get more HP from a diesel in a boat. If I use the a > > > 1.9l less the turbo , I should get around 60 to 65 Hp, more than > > > enough! > > > Couldn't you instal a little 12 volts fan to move the air of the > > > engine bay? > > > Also, do you only need the VW water pump or do you need another > one > > > to move the antifreeze liquid? > > > Martin. > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: gschnell@... > > > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:03:27 +1200 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > Gord here....I have a VW 1.6L in my BS40. I'm running dry exhaust > > > without the heat exchanger manifold. It runs well that way, but > you > > > do accumulate more heat in the engine bay. I have sleeved the > entire > > > exhaust (less the actual manifold) with a fiberglass "sleeve" of > > > 1.5" thickness. The insulation is covered with a foil heat shield. > > > This material is available thru the construction industry and is > > > used for heating/cooling systems in commercial buildings. The > system > > > was installed prior to foam insulation application and is almost > > > entirely "buried" under the foam. Very quiet!! > > > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010 2:44 > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Hi, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> There was many posting before on dry exhaust and also Vw > > > > > >> engines in sailboats. I would like to know if there is anyone > > > > > >> using the VW engine with a dry exhaust. > > > > > >> I want to know if in this configuration you keep the heat > > > > > >> exchanger manifold or if you use the VW exhaust manifold as on a > > > > > >> VW car? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Martin. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Obtenez la version mobile de Messenger ici > > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724473 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@... > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23104|22979|2010-04-21 20:21:46|Mark Hamill|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Dry exhaust--I saw this in a hotrod magazine http://thermotec.com/| 23105|22979|2010-04-21 22:35:09|martin demers|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|I am member of the "vanagon diesel" yahoo group because I drive a diesel vanagon and they say the same thing that there is no or almost no difference between turbo and non-turbo. Martin. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gschnell@... > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:48:54 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > Walter > Thanks for the tip, Walter. I just spent a couple of hours reading > about "Monica" and the problems they were having with their 1.6L VW > diesel in their boat project. Excellent information!! > These VW people are definitely plugged into the VW world. I was > convinced I had a problem and was kicking myself, but thought I would > check with my buddy Dwyane. He has a VW shop and spends his days > repairing VWs and building dune buggies etc for racing. Dwayne says > they have researched that issue extensively and has concluded that > there is absolutely no difference between the turbo and non-turbo > engines with the single exception of the oil jets spraying the piston > skirts , from below, on the turbos. Apparently they exchange parts > freely between turbo and non-turbo without problems. This is a big > relief for me, because my core engine is a 1.6LTD, which I had > machined. I then rebuilt it, minus the turbo...because I don't feel I > need the extra HP and definitely don't need the extra heat. It runs > really sweet, but, it has not yet been in the water, pushing a > propellor. > Guess I'll forge on ahead. There appears to be no problem. Hope I'm > not wrong. > Gord > > On 21-Apr-10, at 2:41 AM, boatwayupnorth wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Gord and Martin, > > I remembered this discussion about VW diesels on another forum: > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/diy-marinizing/volkswagen-jetta-1-6-how-many-hp-prop-calc-29793.html > > > > If you scroll down a bit they warn against removing the turbo. > > Thought you might be interested. > > Walter > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell > > wrote: > > > > > > Sorry about "no reply", Martin. I've been out of the country. The > > 1.9L > > > should give you lots of power w/o the turbo. I'm expecting to have > > > enough with my 1.6L and no turbo....if not...I'll reinstall the > > turbo. > > > I could install a 12V fan and pump the air back out thru the cockpit > > > combings, but I'll wait and see if it's necessary before going to > > the > > > trouble. > > > Gord > > > > > > On 7-Apr-10, at 4:28 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Gord, > > > > I am happy to see it can be done that way, because the Bowman heat > > > > exchanger is almost $1000.00 plus the trouble of finding parts for > > > > it later on. I have a VW 1.9l TD in my VW camper, I installed it > > > > myself, they are easy and cheap to rebuilt . I think it is the > > > > cheaper way to get more HP from a diesel in a boat. If I use the a > > > > 1.9l less the turbo , I should get around 60 to 65 Hp, more than > > > > enough! > > > > Couldn't you instal a little 12 volts fan to move the air of the > > > > engine bay? > > > > Also, do you only need the VW water pump or do you need another > > one > > > > to move the antifreeze liquid? > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: gschnell@... > > > > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:03:27 +1200 > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > Gord here....I have a VW 1.6L in my BS40. I'm running dry exhaust > > > > without the heat exchanger manifold. It runs well that way, but > > you > > > > do accumulate more heat in the engine bay. I have sleeved the > > entire > > > > exhaust (less the actual manifold) with a fiberglass "sleeve" of > > > > 1.5" thickness. The insulation is covered with a foil heat shield. > > > > This material is available thru the construction industry and is > > > > used for heating/cooling systems in commercial buildings. The > > system > > > > was installed prior to foam insulation application and is almost > > > > entirely "buried" under the foam. Very quiet!! > > > > > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010 2:44 > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Hi, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> There was many posting before on dry exhaust and also Vw > > > > > > > >> engines in sailboats. I would like to know if there is anyone > > > > > > > >> using the VW engine with a dry exhaust. > > > > > > > >> I want to know if in this configuration you keep the heat > > > > > > > >> exchanger manifold or if you use the VW exhaust manifold as on a > > > > > > > >> VW car? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Martin. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Obtenez la version mobile de Messenger ici > > > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724473 > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@... > > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > _________________________________________________________________ Messenger sur votre téléphone = MI sur la route http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724474 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23106|22979|2010-04-22 04:07:46|Denis Buggy|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|----- Original Message ----- From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 3:35 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust I am member of the "vanagon diesel" yahoo group because I drive a diesel vanagon and they say the same thing that there is no or almost no difference between turbo and non-turbo. Martin. > dear all vw people -this topic has been covered before and you may find useful data on file . this is a great engine for most uses --------however most engine makers have to make changes to their engines to make them suitable for turbo ------ normally bigger valves--- oil cooling of pistons ---alfin pistons ---injection timing retarded --lower compression !!!! usually by fitting a thicker head gasket --------injection pump computer advanced and retarded by boost pressure sensor from the turbo sensor ---also fuel delivery is metered by available boost pressure ---as if you allow fuel delivery without approx 7 psi of air pressure --you will cover the road with black smoke from un burnt diesel as it does not have the correct air/ fuel/ timing/ recipe to do the business as planned out by vw ------------talk to your local diesel man --------get the numbers of a non turbo vw injector pump and a turbo inj pump and check the fuel figures and injectors and timing and now fit the slim head gasket if required in order to get the compression to run this engine in the manner it was designed to do and if your diesel man can get the remainder of the recipe to match without buying a non turbo inj pump --- and also inform him this is now to be an industrial engine not for a vehicle then you may have an engine otherwise it is a foolish waste of time and money --------regards denis buggy To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com MARKETPLACE Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Welcome to Mom Connection! Share stories, news and more with moms like you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! Explore new interests. Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23107|22979|2010-04-22 06:02:01|boatwayupnorth|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Hi Gord, good to hear that it worked for you! To me, motors are like computers: good when they do what they are supposed to and otherwise a pest. Everything you can't hit with a hammer is scary to me. Here in Europe VW and Mercedes diesel are readily available relatively cheap, but I'm not sure if I should dare to marinize one on my own. Anywa, for me that's still some years ahead. Let us know how everything worked when you have your boat in the water! Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Walter > Thanks for the tip, Walter. I just spent a couple of hours reading > about "Monica" and the problems they were having with their 1.6L VW > diesel in their boat project. Excellent information!! > These VW people are definitely plugged into the VW world. I was > convinced I had a problem and was kicking myself, but thought I would > check with my buddy Dwyane. He has a VW shop and spends his days > repairing VWs and building dune buggies etc for racing. Dwayne says > they have researched that issue extensively and has concluded that > there is absolutely no difference between the turbo and non-turbo > engines with the single exception of the oil jets spraying the piston > skirts , from below, on the turbos. Apparently they exchange parts > freely between turbo and non-turbo without problems. This is a big > relief for me, because my core engine is a 1.6LTD, which I had > machined. I then rebuilt it, minus the turbo...because I don't feel I > need the extra HP and definitely don't need the extra heat. It runs > really sweet, but, it has not yet been in the water, pushing a > propellor. > Guess I'll forge on ahead. There appears to be no problem. Hope I'm > not wrong. > Gord > > On 21-Apr-10, at 2:41 AM, boatwayupnorth wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Gord and Martin, > > I remembered this discussion about VW diesels on another forum: > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/diy-marinizing/volkswagen-jetta-1-6-how-many-hp-prop-calc-29793.html > > > > If you scroll down a bit they warn against removing the turbo. > > Thought you might be interested. > > Walter | 23108|23108|2010-04-22 07:47:23|GP|Joshua Slocum|"Years later, an analysis by Howard I. Chapelle, curator of maritime history at the Smithsonian Institution and a noted expert on small sailing-craft, demonstrated that the Spray was stable under most circumstances but could easily capsize if heeled beyond a relatively shallow angle. He felt that Slocum was merely lucky that his unstable vessel had not killed him earlier" After re-reading Sailing Around the World, as I needed some inspiration to survive snow in Sudbury Ontario as recent as yesterday, I noted this quote in Wikepedia which seemed grossly incorrect in view of Slocums 46,000 miles and 3 years circumnavigation. Anyone familiar with this classic... any opinions on that claim?| 23109|23108|2010-04-22 08:34:52|David Frantz|Re: Joshua Slocum|Slocum's book is certainly a good read. In fact it got me interested in sailing at this late date in my life. As to heeling the boat, I would think a conservative captain, sailing alone, would be very reluctant to push a ship to hard even if it was supremely stable. At least hat is what this in experienced sailor would do. The other thing is this: The world is full of people that seem to be willing to second guess the person that does something first. Or worst to over analyze and find fault. None of us are perfect in this regard but lets face it the fine art of yacht design has advanced considerably since Slocum's time. If you can even say that design was a big issue in Slocum's rebuilding what would be come his ship. Dave On 4/22/10 7:46 AM000, GP wrote: > "Years later, an analysis by Howard I. Chapelle, curator of maritime history at the Smithsonian Institution and a noted expert on small sailing-craft, demonstrated that the Spray was stable under most circumstances but could easily capsize if heeled beyond a relatively shallow angle. He felt that Slocum was merely lucky that his unstable vessel had not killed him earlier" > > After re-reading Sailing Around the World, as I needed some inspiration to survive snow in Sudbury Ontario as recent as yesterday, I noted this quote in Wikepedia which seemed grossly incorrect in view of Slocums 46,000 miles and 3 years circumnavigation. > > Anyone familiar with this classic... any opinions on that claim? > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 23110|22979|2010-04-22 12:13:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 09:57:03AM -0000, boatwayupnorth wrote: > > Here in Europe VW and Mercedes diesel are readily available relatively > cheap, but I'm not sure if I should dare to marinize one on my own. A Swiss steel boat that I'd met up with in the Caribbean had a Mercedes engine in it; the guy who built the boat told me that he went to a junkyard, pulled the engine, installed it, and made up some controls for it (the throttle was something like a Morse cable with a BIG African dollar coin drilled and threaded onto the end.) We had discussed it in detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it just worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans-Atlantic, Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23111|23108|2010-04-22 12:32:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Joshua Slocum|On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 08:34:26AM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > As to heeling the boat, I would think a conservative captain, sailing > alone, would be very reluctant to push a ship to hard even if it was > supremely stable. At least hat is what this in experienced sailor > would do. According to the book, Slocum pushed his rig *very* hard at times - e.g., when escaping the Moroccan pirates, he pushed it so hard that the mast was about to break, and he ended up breaking his main boom and the "sheet-strop". In squalls off the Azores, his "weather lanyards" were carried away. He met with quite a bit of rough weather in his cruise, including one of the largest hurricanes he ever saw at sea to "welcome him back" to America. Now, all you good folks with sailing experience, think about the angles of heel that he would have experienced during all of that - including during a hurricane. I say that this "capsize if heeled beyond a relatively shallow angle" bit is nothing but arrant nonsense. That Chapelle would even think that is hard to believe. Many, many copies of the Spray have been built; a number have even circumnavigated. That claim cannot be made about any boat that would capsize at "a relatively shallow angle". > The other thing is this: The world is full of people that seem to be > willing to second guess the person that does something first. Yes. It's easy to argue with a dead man; he can't argue back. > Or > worst to over analyze and find fault. None of us are perfect in this > regard but lets face it the fine art of yacht design has advanced > considerably since Slocum's time. If you can even say that design was > a big issue in Slocum's rebuilding what would be come his ship. Many of the designs of that time still sail, and are still perfectly safe and seaworthy vessel. We can improve the state of the art - but that by itself does not mean that those old boats were unsafe or badly designed. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23112|22979|2010-04-22 13:16:32|theboilerflue|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a transmission that works for a boat > detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it just > worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans-Atlantic, > Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > > > -- | 23113|23108|2010-04-22 18:06:23|GP|Re: Joshua Slocum|Exactly.... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 08:34:26AM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > > > As to heeling the boat, I would think a conservative captain, sailing > > alone, would be very reluctant to push a ship to hard even if it was > > supremely stable. At least hat is what this in experienced sailor > > would do. > > According to the book, Slocum pushed his rig *very* hard at times - > e.g., when escaping the Moroccan pirates, he pushed it so hard that the > mast was about to break, and he ended up breaking his main boom and the > "sheet-strop". In squalls off the Azores, his "weather lanyards" were > carried away. He met with quite a bit of rough weather in his cruise, > including one of the largest hurricanes he ever saw at sea to "welcome > him back" to America. > > Now, all you good folks with sailing experience, think about the angles > of heel that he would have experienced during all of that - including > during a hurricane. I say that this "capsize if heeled beyond a > relatively shallow angle" bit is nothing but arrant nonsense. That > Chapelle would even think that is hard to believe. Many, many copies of > the Spray have been built; a number have even circumnavigated. That > claim cannot be made about any boat that would capsize at "a relatively > shallow angle". > > > The other thing is this: The world is full of people that seem to be > > willing to second guess the person that does something first. > > Yes. It's easy to argue with a dead man; he can't argue back. > > > Or > > worst to over analyze and find fault. None of us are perfect in this > > regard but lets face it the fine art of yacht design has advanced > > considerably since Slocum's time. If you can even say that design was > > a big issue in Slocum's rebuilding what would be come his ship. > > Many of the designs of that time still sail, and are still perfectly > safe and seaworthy vessel. We can improve the state of the art - but > that by itself does not mean that those old boats were unsafe or badly > designed. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23114|22979|2010-04-22 18:36:42|brentswain38|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by no means mandatory. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a transmission that works for a boat > > > > > detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it just > > worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans-Atlantic, > > Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > > > > > > -- > | 23115|9840|2010-04-22 18:45:05|brentswain38|Re: BS 26|To buy screws, the trick is to find the source for all the hardware stores in your area. Pro fasteners in Campbell River is the main source for northern Vancouver Island, Galvanized finishing nails are all you need for most interior work. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > hmm... that's a hard question, let's see I used mostly 3/4" for all the main bulkhead type things in the cabinetry, the counter tops, and the pilot house floor, for the cabinets usually you can get two or sometimes three bulkhead sections out of a full sheet, which is the reason why I bought new sheets - I needed full size pieces. so for... The workbench to starboard there's five bulkheads (2) plus the top (1). > The galley counter there are four (2) plus a large one on the end (1) plus the top (1). > The Settee's main supports I was able to squeeze out of the remaining pieces from some of the other stuff and the top and sides probably adds up to two sheets at most (2) > The enclosure for the head I pieced together from smaller chunks last summer but I think I'll redo it sometime in the future and make it jive better with the rest of the stuff now, but lets say two for the walls (2) and one for the inside floor/toilet mounting (1). > The main mast supporting bulkheads are one each (2) > My V-berth is real big but I was able to squeeze it out of a full sheet of 1/2" (1) and maybe another 3/4" for the supports underneath (1) > There's a sorta unfinished hanging locker back of the V-berth that used maybe two sheets (2) > The engine box used one sheet (1) > The nav station thingy is built of maybe two sheets (2) > Pilot house floor I used some of the off cuts. > So that's a rough estimate for the bare shells of all the cabinets, I made all drawers mostly which takes a surprisingly large amount of plywood and I pieced them all together from scrounged stuff and I really guessing here but maybe I used 6 sheets for all my drawers (6) > So a rough estimate would be about 15+ sheets of 3/4 and another 15 or so of various other thicknesses. It's hard to say, I only really kept track of the sheets I bought and not really the scrounged stuff that was in all sorts of different shapes, sizes and thicknesses. > > I also sorta kicked myself for not buying all my stainless screws online, there's some pretty good prices on ebay and such. I bought them all little bits at a time locally and could have saved a few hundred bucks if I had just gotten them all at once. Would recommend buying lots of a thousand, various length stainless #8 decking screws, 3/4" 1 1/2" 2" it's really quite amazing just how fast you can use up a 100 screws. Also if your going to build drawers, maybe tracking down some nice drawer runners for cheap wouldn't be a bad idea at the hardware store they try and sell them for 20-25 bucks a pair for any decent ones - I've got 15 drawers on my boat so made all the runner boards out of plywood strips, those metal runners would have made things easier, and faster, but 350 bucks is a lot to pay for just the runners, I did find some I pulled of some discarded computer desks I passed by on the sidewalk, you want the nice sealed ones, the ones that can work in any position, not the ones that jump off their track of course. The re-store had some they were selling for 15 bucks used which is still pretty steep. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Haidan > > How many full sheets of plywood would you > > think it would take to put in an interior like yours? > > James > > --- On Tue, 4/20/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > | 23116|23108|2010-04-22 18:50:05|brentswain38|Re: Joshua Slocum|With it's extreme beam, shallow keel, and short mast it would be hard to push a boat like spray beyond a certain angle, Once pushed a bit beyond 90 degrees, there is no way such a beamy shallow boat would ever right itself. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 08:34:26AM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > > > As to heeling the boat, I would think a conservative captain, sailing > > alone, would be very reluctant to push a ship to hard even if it was > > supremely stable. At least hat is what this in experienced sailor > > would do. > > According to the book, Slocum pushed his rig *very* hard at times - > e.g., when escaping the Moroccan pirates, he pushed it so hard that the > mast was about to break, and he ended up breaking his main boom and the > "sheet-strop". In squalls off the Azores, his "weather lanyards" were > carried away. He met with quite a bit of rough weather in his cruise, > including one of the largest hurricanes he ever saw at sea to "welcome > him back" to America. > > Now, all you good folks with sailing experience, think about the angles > of heel that he would have experienced during all of that - including > during a hurricane. I say that this "capsize if heeled beyond a > relatively shallow angle" bit is nothing but arrant nonsense. That > Chapelle would even think that is hard to believe. Many, many copies of > the Spray have been built; a number have even circumnavigated. That > claim cannot be made about any boat that would capsize at "a relatively > shallow angle". > > > The other thing is this: The world is full of people that seem to be > > willing to second guess the person that does something first. > > Yes. It's easy to argue with a dead man; he can't argue back. > > > Or > > worst to over analyze and find fault. None of us are perfect in this > > regard but lets face it the fine art of yacht design has advanced > > considerably since Slocum's time. If you can even say that design was > > a big issue in Slocum's rebuilding what would be come his ship. > > Many of the designs of that time still sail, and are still perfectly > safe and seaworthy vessel. We can improve the state of the art - but > that by itself does not mean that those old boats were unsafe or badly > designed. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23117|9840|2010-04-22 19:32:29|Gary H. Lucas|Re: BS 26|Do they make galvanized resin coated box nails? My dad and I used to build the bins in our electrical trucks from plywood, pine strips, and some masonite. We put everything together with resin coated box nails and white glue. My brother still has trucks on the road with bins that were built 35 years ago! These trucks bounce down the road every day. The bins have bee moved to new trucks when the truck wears out. A couple have been in accidents where the bins broke loose because the screws pulled out of the metal frame of the truck. The bins though, all survived and went into a new truck with minimal repair. Despite all the vibration the resin coated box nails do not work loose or back out! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 6:43 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 To buy screws, the trick is to find the source for all the hardware stores in your area. Pro fasteners in Campbell River is the main source for northern Vancouver Island, Galvanized finishing nails are all you need for most interior work. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > hmm... that's a hard question, let's see I used mostly 3/4" for all the > main bulkhead type things in the cabinetry, the counter tops, and the > pilot house floor, for the cabinets usually you can get two or sometimes > three bulkhead sections out of a full sheet, which is the reason why I > bought new sheets - I needed full size pieces. so for... The workbench to > starboard there's five bulkheads (2) plus the top (1). > The galley counter there are four (2) plus a large one on the end (1) plus > the top (1). > The Settee's main supports I was able to squeeze out of the remaining > pieces from some of the other stuff and the top and sides probably adds up > to two sheets at most (2) > The enclosure for the head I pieced together from smaller chunks last > summer but I think I'll redo it sometime in the future and make it jive > better with the rest of the stuff now, but lets say two for the walls (2) > and one for the inside floor/toilet mounting (1). > The main mast supporting bulkheads are one each (2) > My V-berth is real big but I was able to squeeze it out of a full sheet of > 1/2" (1) and maybe another 3/4" for the supports underneath (1) > There's a sorta unfinished hanging locker back of the V-berth that used > maybe two sheets (2) > The engine box used one sheet (1) > The nav station thingy is built of maybe two sheets (2) > Pilot house floor I used some of the off cuts. > So that's a rough estimate for the bare shells of all the cabinets, I made > all drawers mostly which takes a surprisingly large amount of plywood and > I pieced them all together from scrounged stuff and I really guessing here > but maybe I used 6 sheets for all my drawers (6) > So a rough estimate would be about 15+ sheets of 3/4 and another 15 or so > of various other thicknesses. It's hard to say, I only really kept track > of the sheets I bought and not really the scrounged stuff that was in all > sorts of different shapes, sizes and thicknesses. > > I also sorta kicked myself for not buying all my stainless screws online, > there's some pretty good prices on ebay and such. I bought them all little > bits at a time locally and could have saved a few hundred bucks if I had > just gotten them all at once. Would recommend buying lots of a thousand, > various length stainless #8 decking screws, 3/4" 1 1/2" 2" it's really > quite amazing just how fast you can use up a 100 screws. Also if your > going to build drawers, maybe tracking down some nice drawer runners for > cheap wouldn't be a bad idea at the hardware store they try and sell them > for 20-25 bucks a pair for any decent ones - I've got 15 drawers on my > boat so made all the runner boards out of plywood strips, those metal > runners would have made things easier, and faster, but 350 bucks is a lot > to pay for just the runners, I did find some I pulled of some discarded > computer desks I passed by on the sidewalk, you want the nice sealed ones, > the ones that can work in any position, not the ones that jump off their > track of course. The re-store had some they were selling for 15 bucks used > which is still pretty steep. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Haidan > > How many full sheets of plywood would you > > think it would take to put in an interior like yours? > > James > > --- On Tue, 4/20/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > | 23118|23108|2010-04-22 19:33:08|Paul Wilson|Re: Joshua Slocum|brentswain38 wrote: > > > With it's extreme beam, shallow keel, and short mast it would be hard > to push a boat like spray beyond a certain angle, Once pushed a bit > beyond 90 degrees, there is no way such a beamy shallow boat would > ever right itself. > Or perform well to windward. I know of a Roberts Spray replica that got within 100 km of NZ before strong southerly winds started blowing and pushed it off. 15 days later, it finally arrived. Paul| 23119|23108|2010-04-22 19:38:51|GP|Re: Joshua Slocum|The pilot of the Pinta musta pointed that out to JS in the early going. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With it's extreme beam, shallow keel, and short mast it would be hard to push a boat like spray beyond a certain angle, Once pushed a bit beyond 90 degrees, there is no way such a beamy shallow boat would ever right itself. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 08:34:26AM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > As to heeling the boat, I would think a conservative captain, sailing > > > alone, would be very reluctant to push a ship to hard even if it was > > > supremely stable. At least hat is what this in experienced sailor > > > would do. > > > > According to the book, Slocum pushed his rig *very* hard at times - > > e.g., when escaping the Moroccan pirates, he pushed it so hard that the > > mast was about to break, and he ended up breaking his main boom and the > > "sheet-strop". In squalls off the Azores, his "weather lanyards" were > > carried away. He met with quite a bit of rough weather in his cruise, > > including one of the largest hurricanes he ever saw at sea to "welcome > > him back" to America. > > > > Now, all you good folks with sailing experience, think about the angles > > of heel that he would have experienced during all of that - including > > during a hurricane. I say that this "capsize if heeled beyond a > > relatively shallow angle" bit is nothing but arrant nonsense. That > > Chapelle would even think that is hard to believe. Many, many copies of > > the Spray have been built; a number have even circumnavigated. That > > claim cannot be made about any boat that would capsize at "a relatively > > shallow angle". > > > > > The other thing is this: The world is full of people that seem to be > > > willing to second guess the person that does something first. > > > > Yes. It's easy to argue with a dead man; he can't argue back. > > > > > Or > > > worst to over analyze and find fault. None of us are perfect in this > > > regard but lets face it the fine art of yacht design has advanced > > > considerably since Slocum's time. If you can even say that design was > > > a big issue in Slocum's rebuilding what would be come his ship. > > > > Many of the designs of that time still sail, and are still perfectly > > safe and seaworthy vessel. We can improve the state of the art - but > > that by itself does not mean that those old boats were unsafe or badly > > designed. > > > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > | 23120|23108|2010-04-22 19:39:33|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Joshua Slocum|And square riggers went around the world many times. However we know lots of those went to the bottom, by all the wrecks that divers have found. Lots of people have survived owning a Pinto with a gas tank that explodes in a collision. A gun man shoots into a crowd and someone walks away unscathed. Luck has a lot more to do with life than it gets credit for! I have no luck. The temporary inspection sticker on my new car expired at midnight. On my way to the inspection station at 8 am the next morning I was stopped by a cop for the expired sticker! This in a state where the STATE says there are 400,000 uninsured, uninspected vehicles! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Joshua Slocum > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 08:34:26AM -0400, David Frantz wrote: >> >> As to heeling the boat, I would think a conservative captain, sailing >> alone, would be very reluctant to push a ship to hard even if it was >> supremely stable. At least hat is what this in experienced sailor >> would do. > > According to the book, Slocum pushed his rig *very* hard at times - > e.g., when escaping the Moroccan pirates, he pushed it so hard that the > mast was about to break, and he ended up breaking his main boom and the > "sheet-strop". In squalls off the Azores, his "weather lanyards" were > carried away. He met with quite a bit of rough weather in his cruise, > including one of the largest hurricanes he ever saw at sea to "welcome > him back" to America. > > Now, all you good folks with sailing experience, think about the angles > of heel that he would have experienced during all of that - including > during a hurricane. I say that this "capsize if heeled beyond a > relatively shallow angle" bit is nothing but arrant nonsense. That > Chapelle would even think that is hard to believe. Many, many copies of > the Spray have been built; a number have even circumnavigated. That > claim cannot be made about any boat that would capsize at "a relatively > shallow angle". > >> The other thing is this: The world is full of people that seem to be >> willing to second guess the person that does something first. > > Yes. It's easy to argue with a dead man; he can't argue back. > >> Or >> worst to over analyze and find fault. None of us are perfect in this >> regard but lets face it the fine art of yacht design has advanced >> considerably since Slocum's time. If you can even say that design was >> a big issue in Slocum's rebuilding what would be come his ship. > > Many of the designs of that time still sail, and are still perfectly > safe and seaworthy vessel. We can improve the state of the art - but > that by itself does not mean that those old boats were unsafe or badly > designed. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23121|22979|2010-04-22 21:09:33|martin demers|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Brent, I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for skeg cooling? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by no means mandatory. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a transmission that works for a boat > > > > > detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it just > > worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans-Atlantic, > > Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > > > > > > -- > _________________________________________________________________ Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23122|23108|2010-04-22 23:42:49|David Frantz|Re: Joshua Slocum|David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 22, 2010, at 12:31 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 08:34:26AM -0400, David Frantz wrote: >> >> As to heeling the boat, I would think a conservative captain, sailing >> alone, would be very reluctant to push a ship to hard even if it was >> supremely stable. At least hat is what this in experienced sailor >> would do. > > According to the book, Slocum pushed his rig *very* hard at times - > e.g., when escaping the Moroccan pirates, he pushed it so hard that > the > mast was about to break, and he ended up breaking his main boom and > the > "sheet-strop". Well yeah but let's face it he was trying to out run pirates here. People do extreme things when their life is endangered. He just as often let the boat more or less sail itself with the rudder tied off. > In squalls off the Azores, his "weather lanyards" were > carried away. He met with quite a bit of rough weather in his cruise, > including one of the largest hurricanes he ever saw at sea to "welcome > him back" to America. > > Now, all you good folks with sailing experience, think about the > angles > of heel that he would have experienced during all of that - including > during a hurricane. I say that this "capsize if heeled beyond a > relatively shallow angle" bit is nothing but arrant nonsense. It may very well be as I'm far from a seasoned sailor. Slocum on the other hand was very experienced. > That > Chapelle would even think that is hard to believe. Many, many copies > of > the Spray have been built; a number have even circumnavigated. That > claim cannot be made about any boat that would capsize at "a > relatively > shallow angle". > >> The other thing is this: The world is full of people that seem >> to be >> willing to second guess the person that does something first. > > Yes. It's easy to argue with a dead man; he can't argue back. > >> Or >> worst to over analyze and find fault. None of us are perfect in >> this >> regard but lets face it the fine art of yacht design has advanced >> considerably since Slocum's time. If you can even say that design >> was >> a big issue in Slocum's rebuilding what would be come his ship. > > Many of the designs of that time still sail, and are still perfectly > safe and seaworthy vessel. We can improve the state of the art - but > that by itself does not mean that those old boats were unsafe or badly > designed. > That wasn't really my point rather that Slocum experimented with Spray as he sailed around the world. It didn't appear to me to be an engineering effort but rather seat of the pants reworking of the rigging. Even when he initially rebuilt the Spray it did not appear to be any more than seat of the pants changes. Granted we are talking about a man with considerable experience at sea in a wide range of ships so this isn't a surprise. I actually think that Slocum would really fit well into a yahoo group like Origamiboats. In many ways he exibited the same attitude that many here exhibit. That is making something work and communicating with others to solve problems. Dave > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23123|23108|2010-04-23 07:28:33|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Joshua Slocum|"brentswain38" wrote: it's extreme beam, shallow keel, and short mast it would be hard to push a boat like spray beyond a certain angle, Once pushed a bit beyond 90 degrees, there is no way such a beamy shallow boat would ever right itself. Wiki was quoted:"Years later, an analysis by Howard I. Chapelle, curator of maritime history at the Smithsonian Institution and a noted expert on small sailing-craft, demonstrated that the Spray was stable under most circumstances but could easily capsize if heeled beyond a relatively shallow angle. He felt that Slocum was merely lucky that his unstable vessel had not killed him earlier"    Chapelle was an extremely knowledgeable and experienced authority, and his work is worth reading today.  Those who have noted how hard Slocum was sometimes forced to press his craft all mention that spars or rigging gave way.  This was not a steel boat with a steel mast and steel rigging, or even a fiberglass boat with an alloy mast.  The wind alone could not knock it over, because of its high initial stability; something would break first.  But if it were capsized by a wave, as in a broach, I can believe it would sink.  Perhaps this is what finally happened to the Spray and its captain; we just don't know.      Spray was not designed to be a circumnavigator, but an oystering boat.  Slocum acquired it by chance, in a tavern, as I recall, and rebuilt it, perhaps not even initially with a purpose to sail around the world.  When he designed and built from scratch the Liberdade for a long distance open ocean voyage, it was more like a sampan than an oysterer, and had a junk rig to boot. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23124|22979|2010-04-23 12:17:58|Gord Schnell|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. Gord On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > Brent, > I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > skeg cooling? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by no > means mandatory. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > wrote: > >> > >> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust >> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a >> transmission that works for a boat > >> > >> > >> > >>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it just > >>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- >>> Atlantic, > >>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23125|22979|2010-04-23 12:55:27|martin demers|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Gord, do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gschnell@... Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:17:46 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. Gord On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > Brent, > I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > skeg cooling? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by no > means mandatory. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > wrote: > >> > >> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust >> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a >> transmission that works for a boat > >> > >> > >> > >>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it just > >>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- >>> Atlantic, > >>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > _________________________________________________________________ Les vid�os qui font jaser! R�solution HD aussi offerte! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23126|9840|2010-04-23 15:34:50|Matt Malone|Resin Coated Box Nails|Are not nail-gun framing nails coated with a resin to stick in the wood ? I am not sure I have ever seen nail-gun framing nails in galvanized. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gary.lucas@... Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 19:32:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 Do they make galvanized resin coated box nails? My dad and I used to build the bins in our electrical trucks from plywood, pine strips, and some masonite. We put everything together with resin coated box nails and white glue. My brother still has trucks on the road with bins that were built 35 years ago! These trucks bounce down the road every day. The bins have bee moved to new trucks when the truck wears out. A couple have been in accidents where the bins broke loose because the screws pulled out of the metal frame of the truck. The bins though, all survived and went into a new truck with minimal repair. Despite all the vibration the resin coated box nails do not work loose or back out! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 6:43 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 To buy screws, the trick is to find the source for all the hardware stores in your area. Pro fasteners in Campbell River is the main source for northern Vancouver Island, Galvanized finishing nails are all you need for most interior work. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > hmm... that's a hard question, let's see I used mostly 3/4" for all the > main bulkhead type things in the cabinetry, the counter tops, and the > pilot house floor, for the cabinets usually you can get two or sometimes > three bulkhead sections out of a full sheet, which is the reason why I > bought new sheets - I needed full size pieces. so for... The workbench to > starboard there's five bulkheads (2) plus the top (1). > The galley counter there are four (2) plus a large one on the end (1) plus > the top (1). > The Settee's main supports I was able to squeeze out of the remaining > pieces from some of the other stuff and the top and sides probably adds up > to two sheets at most (2) > The enclosure for the head I pieced together from smaller chunks last > summer but I think I'll redo it sometime in the future and make it jive > better with the rest of the stuff now, but lets say two for the walls (2) > and one for the inside floor/toilet mounting (1). > The main mast supporting bulkheads are one each (2) > My V-berth is real big but I was able to squeeze it out of a full sheet of > 1/2" (1) and maybe another 3/4" for the supports underneath (1) > There's a sorta unfinished hanging locker back of the V-berth that used > maybe two sheets (2) > The engine box used one sheet (1) > The nav station thingy is built of maybe two sheets (2) > Pilot house floor I used some of the off cuts. > So that's a rough estimate for the bare shells of all the cabinets, I made > all drawers mostly which takes a surprisingly large amount of plywood and > I pieced them all together from scrounged stuff and I really guessing here > but maybe I used 6 sheets for all my drawers (6) > So a rough estimate would be about 15+ sheets of 3/4 and another 15 or so > of various other thicknesses. It's hard to say, I only really kept track > of the sheets I bought and not really the scrounged stuff that was in all > sorts of different shapes, sizes and thicknesses. > > I also sorta kicked myself for not buying all my stainless screws online, > there's some pretty good prices on ebay and such. I bought them all little > bits at a time locally and could have saved a few hundred bucks if I had > just gotten them all at once. Would recommend buying lots of a thousand, > various length stainless #8 decking screws, 3/4" 1 1/2" 2" it's really > quite amazing just how fast you can use up a 100 screws. Also if your > going to build drawers, maybe tracking down some nice drawer runners for > cheap wouldn't be a bad idea at the hardware store they try and sell them > for 20-25 bucks a pair for any decent ones - I've got 15 drawers on my > boat so made all the runner boards out of plywood strips, those metal > runners would have made things easier, and faster, but 350 bucks is a lot > to pay for just the runners, I did find some I pulled of some discarded > computer desks I passed by on the sidewalk, you want the nice sealed ones, > the ones that can work in any position, not the ones that jump off their > track of course. The re-store had some they were selling for 15 bucks used > which is still pretty steep. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Haidan > > How many full sheets of plywood� would you > > think it would take to put in an interior like yours? > > James > > --- On Tue, 4/20/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail & Messenger are available on your phone. Try now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724461 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23127|22979|2010-04-23 15:39:40|Gord Schnell|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Martin I'm not clear what you are asking me. Can you expand on the question a bit? Gord On 23-Apr-10, at 9:55 AM, martin demers wrote: > > Gord, > do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gschnell@... > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:17:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. > > Gord > > > > On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> Brent, > >> I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > >> keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > >> skeg cooling? > >> Martin. > >> > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> From: brentswain38@... > >> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > >> easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by no > >> means mandatory. > >> > >> > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust > >>> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a > >>> transmission that works for a boat > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it >>>> just > >> > >>>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- > >>>> Atlantic, > >> > >>>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> -- > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Les vidéos qui font jaser! Résolution HD aussi offerte! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23128|22979|2010-04-23 15:46:27|martin demers|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Gord, Inside the water exhaust there is a heat exchanger that cools the engine coolant with the sea water.If I am not using the sea water but the skeg coolant instead to cool my engine, do I keep the heat exchanger or can I remove it and let the engine coolant run freely inside the water exhaust? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gschnell@... Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:39:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust Martin I'm not clear what you are asking me. Can you expand on the question a bit? Gord On 23-Apr-10, at 9:55 AM, martin demers wrote: > > Gord, > do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gschnell@... > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:17:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. > > Gord > > > > On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> Brent, > >> I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > >> keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > >> skeg cooling? > >> Martin. > >> > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> From: brentswain38@... > >> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > >> easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by no > >> means mandatory. > >> > >> > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust > >>> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a > >>> transmission that works for a boat > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it >>>> just > >> > >>>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- > >>>> Atlantic, > >> > >>>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> -- > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone > >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Les vid�os qui font jaser! R�solution HD aussi offerte! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > _________________________________________________________________ Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23129|22979|2010-04-23 19:45:01|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Martin I think U caught on a particularly slow (mentally) day. I can't picture that exchanger system with another exchanger within it. Can U point me to a weblink that diagrams the exchanger system so I can refresh my memory? Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: martin demers Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:46:13 To: Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust Gord, Inside the water exhaust there is a heat exchanger that cools the engine coolant with the sea water.If I am not using the sea water but the skeg coolant instead to cool my engine, do I keep the heat exchanger or can I remove it and let the engine coolant run freely inside the water exhaust? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gschnell@... Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:39:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust Martin I'm not clear what you are asking me. Can you expand on the question a bit? Gord On 23-Apr-10, at 9:55 AM, martin demers wrote: > > Gord, > do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gschnell@... > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:17:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. > > Gord > > > > On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> Brent, > >> I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > >> keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > >> skeg cooling? > >> Martin. > >> > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> From: brentswain38@... > >> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > >> easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by no > >> means mandatory. > >> > >> > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust > >>> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a > >>> transmission that works for a boat > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it >>>> just > >> > >>>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- > >>>> Atlantic, > >> > >>>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> -- > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>__________________________________________________________ > >> Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________________ > Les vidéos qui font jaser! Résolution HD aussi offerte! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > _________________________________________________________________ Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 23130|22979|2010-04-23 21:51:19|Gord Schnell|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Martin If I understand, you must have a Pathfinder water-cooled exhaust manifold or equivalent. If so, use it and cool it with your skeg coolant. That way, you will eliminate a huge amount of engine bay heat from the manifold. I would run the engine coolant, from the skeg thru the engine and then the "water exhaust" exchanger. If that puts too much heat load on the skeg coolant, then consider deleting or partially bypassing the exhaust heat exchanger. That way, you will get rid of some exhaust heat. Who manufactured your water exhaust exchanger system?? Gord > > Gord, > Inside the water exhaust there is a heat exchanger that cools the > engine coolant with the sea water.If I am not using the sea water > but the skeg coolant instead to cool my engine, do I keep the heat > exchanger or can I remove it and let the engine coolant run freely > inside the water exhaust? > > > Martin. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gschnell@... > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:39:29 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > I'm not clear what you are asking me. Can you expand on the question a > > bit? > > Gord > > > > On 23-Apr-10, at 9:55 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > >> > >> Gord, > >> do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? > >> Martin. > >> > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> From: gschnell@... > >> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:17:46 -0700 > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. > >> > >> Gord > >> > >> > >> > >> On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Brent, > >> > >>> I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > >> > >>> keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > >> > >>> skeg cooling? > >> > >>> Martin. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > >>> From: brentswain38@... > >> > >>> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > >> > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > >> > >>> easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by no > >> > >>> means mandatory. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > >> > >>> wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust > >> > >>>> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a > >> > >>>> transmission that works for a boat > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it > >>>>> just > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- > >> > >>>>> Atlantic, > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> -- > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> __________________________________________________________ > >> > >>> Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > >> > >>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > >> > >>> > >> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >> > >>> > >> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > >> > >>> ! Groups Links > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> Les vidéos qui font jaser! Résolution HD aussi offerte! > >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23131|22979|2010-04-24 20:37:16|theboilerflue|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|The engine I got came with a heat exchanger, not attached to the system though, I thought about using it as a header tank but I figured the maze of copper pipes inside would just add more complexity to the coolant system, and since I was trying to simplify the system I decided not to use it, instead I used a piece of 6" SS pipe (about a foot long) as a header tank. One thing you could do with the heat exchanger of course is put in a couple of valves allowing you to bypass it if you want, that way you can use it as a hot water heater, you could even plumb in one of those heater blocks that were discussed earlier too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Gord, > Inside the water exhaust there is a heat exchanger that cools the engine coolant with the sea water.If I am not using the sea water but the skeg coolant instead to cool my engine, do I keep the heat exchanger or can I remove it and let the engine coolant run freely inside the water exhaust? > > > Martin. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gschnell@... > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:39:29 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > I'm not clear what you are asking me. Can you expand on the question a > > bit? > > Gord > > > > On 23-Apr-10, at 9:55 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > Gord, > > > do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? > > > Martin. > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: gschnell@... > > > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:17:46 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. > > > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > > > > On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Brent, > > > > > >> I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > > > > > >> keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > > > > > >> skeg cooling? > > > > > >> Martin. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >> From: brentswain38@... > > > > > >> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > > > > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > > > > > >> easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by no > > > > > >> means mandatory. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust > > > > > >>> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a > > > > > >>> transmission that works for a boat > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it > > >>>> just > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- > > > > > >>>> Atlantic, > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>> -- > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > > > >> Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > > > > > >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > > > > >> ! Groups Links > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Les vidéos qui font jaser! Résolution HD aussi offerte! > > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23132|22979|2010-04-24 20:58:02|lachica31|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Gord, > do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? > Martin. Martin, You remove the heat exchanger core. That is the bundle of tubes that are in the inside. You do not need it as you are no longer pumping salt water through it. Often the end caps are fastened to the core (often the end caps contain the inlet & outlet for the seawater), if that is so you will need to weld the ends shut. Regards, Paul Thompson| 23133|23133|2010-04-25 00:11:38|Don|Junk rig|I am two and a half years off building and love the idea of the origami method, it just makes so much sense. The video is much watched! Whilst building the dream I have become a huge fan of Annie Hill and am set on a junk rig. To be honest I also love the look of the Wylo. However my tendency toward a twin keel with all of it's benefits is strong. I see there have been some negative posts on junk rigging and would love to know if anyone has a Brent Swain which they have junk rigged or can comment on the concept?| 23134|23134|2010-04-25 06:55:56|kimdxx|Bulwark caps and pipe dimensions.|Hi all ... On the plans for my 26-footer Brent has specified that the lifelines and bulwark caps are to be "3/4" ID sch 40 pipe". I'll be using galvanized pipe, as I can't afford stainless for this. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a constant International standard for defining pipe dimensions. Down here in Aus pipe is sold with a somewhat different nomenclature, and is referred to as having a particular "nominal bore" (NB), and then varying wall thicknesses ("Extra Light", "Light", "Medium", "Heavy", and "Extra Heavy") for a given NB. From what I've been able to find out from web searches, "3/4" ID sch 40 pipe" has these dimensions: 1.05" (26.67mm) OD - 0.824" (20.93mm) ID - 0.113" (2.87mm) wall thickness. Does that sound about right? If so, then the closest equivalent here would be 20mm NB, which has 26.9mm OD. The 20mm NB "medium" wall thickness is 2.6mm, and the 20mm NB "heavy" wall thickness is 3.2mm. Should I go for the 2.6mm wall, or the 3.2mm wall? Or doesn't it make much difference? If it's strong enough I would prefer to use the 2.6mm wall as it will be lighter. Talking of the bulwark cap: does it really matter if it is ordinary black steel pipe (not galvanized)? If galvanized it will be trickier to weld, and maybe most of its galvanizing gets blown away by the final exterior sandblasting anyway? Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com ______________________________| 23135|23134|2010-04-25 09:51:01|Shane Duncan|Re: Bulwark caps and pipe dimensions.|i went for 3.2mm for the bulwark, as the chain plate will be welded on to this you want a bit of extra meat on it   2.6mm for the lifelines with galvanized pipe make sure you grind back the galve to white metal this will make for a much easier and cleaner weld took me a while to work this out but it makes a big difference to the quality of your weld    cheers shane --- On Sun, 25/4/10, kimdxx wrote: From: kimdxx Subject: [origamiboats] Bulwark caps and pipe dimensions. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, 25 April, 2010, 10:55 AM Hi all ... On the plans for my 26-footer Brent has specified that the lifelines and bulwark caps are to be "3/4" ID sch 40 pipe". I'll be using galvanized pipe, as I can't afford stainless for this. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a constant International standard for defining pipe dimensions. Down here in Aus pipe is sold with a somewhat different nomenclature, and is referred to as having a particular "nominal bore" (NB), and then varying wall thicknesses ("Extra Light", "Light", "Medium", "Heavy", and "Extra Heavy") for a given NB. From what I've been able to find out from web searches, "3/4" ID sch 40 pipe" has these dimensions: 1.05" (26.67mm) OD - 0.824" (20.93mm) ID - 0.113" (2.87mm) wall thickness. Does that sound about right? If so, then the closest equivalent here would be 20mm NB, which has 26.9mm OD. The 20mm NB "medium" wall thickness is 2.6mm, and the 20mm NB "heavy" wall thickness is 3.2mm. Should I go for the 2.6mm wall, or the 3.2mm wall? Or doesn't it make much difference? If it's strong enough I would prefer to use the 2.6mm wall as it will be lighter. Talking of the bulwark cap: does it really matter if it is ordinary black steel pipe (not galvanized)? If galvanized it will be trickier to weld, and maybe most of its galvanizing gets blown away by the final exterior sandblasting anyway? Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com ______________________________ ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23136|23134|2010-04-25 10:34:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: Bulwark caps and pipe dimensions.|On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:55:15AM -0000, kimdxx wrote: > > Hi all ... > > On the plans for my 26-footer Brent has specified that the lifelines > and bulwark caps are to be "3/4" ID sch 40 pipe". I'll be using > galvanized pipe, as I can't afford stainless for this. Oh, if we all had to go around _affording_ stuff, the boats would never get built. :) Sure, buying stainless retail is just a way to destroy your entire budget in one go - but if you're looking for a boat's worth of stainless, you should hunt up a junkyard or a recycler and see if you can get the stainless at scrap prices. > Talking of the bulwark cap: does it really matter if it is ordinary > black steel pipe (not galvanized)? If galvanized it will be trickier > to weld, and maybe most of its galvanizing gets blown away by the > final exterior sandblasting anyway? Given my experience with black pipe and galvanized used for bulwark caps, I'd never, ever do it on a boat that I was building. Anything but stainless will rust out from the inside, leaving you to redo the whole job from scratch - and it's a hell of a lot harder to do after the boat's completed than during the building process. Use stainless. Trust me, you'll thank yourself any time you drag something sharp and heavy (like a dinghy) over the bulwarks, or whenever another boat drags its anchor and scrrrrrapes all the way down your rail. I've done a really crappy job of paint maintenance on Ulysses for the past several years (lots of various reasons... but I'm finally starting to get on it.) I'd say that 90% of the rust I see right now is from my non-stainless toerail, plus ~8"-high rusty area on the starboard side of my stern, where the dinghy painter chafes off all the paint (I keep reminding myself to weld a piece of stainless angle on that corner, but still haven't gotten a round tuit.) Point is, wherever there's chafe on a regular basis, you really need stainless. There's just no good way to get around that. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23137|23134|2010-04-25 11:26:48|theboilerflue|Re: Bulwark caps and pipe dimensions.|> Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a constant International standard for defining pipe dimensions. Down here in Aus pipe is sold with a somewhat different nomenclature, and is referred to as having a particular "nominal bore" (NB), and then varying wall thicknesses ("Extra Light", "Light", "Medium", "Heavy", and "Extra Heavy") for a given NB. > > From what I've been able to find out from web searches, "3/4" ID sch 40 pipe" has these dimensions: 1.05" (26.67mm) OD - 0.824" (20.93mm) ID - 0.113" (2.87mm) wall thickness. Does that sound about right? > > If so, then the closest equivalent here would be 20mm NB, which has 26.9mm OD. The 20mm NB "medium" wall thickness is 2.6mm, and the 20mm NB "heavy" wall thickness is 3.2mm. > Wikipedia seems to think nominal pipe wall thickness for 3/4" sch 40 is 2.78 mm with a NB of 20mm whereas sch 80 wall thickness is 3.912 I remember seeing this "extra heavy" classification in the AJ Forsyth steel book it seemed just like a another set of terms for schedule pipe sizes. I beleive heavy was sch 40, extra heavy was sch 80, double extra heavy sch 120 ect..| 23138|23134|2010-04-25 11:51:56|theboilerflue|Re: Bulwark caps and pipe dimensions.|track down where, the metal supplier you got the quote from gets their steel and go to them for a quote, even if they demand a large order get a quote from them just to see what the the first metal guys are paying for it, that way you'll have an idea of a more appropriate price for stainless. Here I've found that if you can get them to sell it to you, can get new stainless pipe from the larger suppliers for just slightly over the price of mild. Even AJ forsyth, the metal suppliers on the island would give me a better price on a quote if I called under my families farm name than if I just was some guy calling cause they farm gets stuff from them all the time, they recognise quantity and larger customers and if you can find out what their wholesale cost is it'll give you something of a bargaining edge, and maybe you can talk them down from a 50% markup to a 10% or 5%. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:55:15AM -0000, kimdxx wrote: > > > > Hi all ... > > > > On the plans for my 26-footer Brent has specified that the lifelines > > and bulwark caps are to be "3/4" ID sch 40 pipe". I'll be using > > galvanized pipe, as I can't afford stainless for this. > > Oh, if we all had to go around _affording_ stuff, the boats would never > get built. :) Sure, buying stainless retail is just a way to destroy > your entire budget in one go - but if you're looking for a boat's worth > of stainless, you should hunt up a junkyard or a recycler and see if you > can get the stainless at scrap prices. > > > Talking of the bulwark cap: does it really matter if it is ordinary > > black steel pipe (not galvanized)? If galvanized it will be trickier > > to weld, and maybe most of its galvanizing gets blown away by the > > final exterior sandblasting anyway? > > Given my experience with black pipe and galvanized used for bulwark > caps, I'd never, ever do it on a boat that I was building. Anything but > stainless will rust out from the inside, leaving you to redo the whole > job from scratch - and it's a hell of a lot harder to do after the > boat's completed than during the building process. Use stainless. Trust > me, you'll thank yourself any time you drag something sharp and heavy > (like a dinghy) over the bulwarks, or whenever another boat drags its > anchor and scrrrrrapes all the way down your rail. > > I've done a really crappy job of paint maintenance on Ulysses for the > past several years (lots of various reasons... but I'm finally starting > to get on it.) I'd say that 90% of the rust I see right now is from my > non-stainless toerail, plus ~8"-high rusty area on the starboard side of > my stern, where the dinghy painter chafes off all the paint (I keep > reminding myself to weld a piece of stainless angle on that corner, but > still haven't gotten a round tuit.) > > Point is, wherever there's chafe on a regular basis, you really need > stainless. There's just no good way to get around that. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23139|23108|2010-04-25 12:41:17|mauro gonzaga|Re: Joshua Slocum|I am interested in naval architecture, ex hull and safety navy officer and Lloyd's Surveyor. I was interested to the Spray very much. I read a great book about the Spray, it is "In the wake of the Spray" written by a naval engineer: Kenneth E. Slack, an Australian who made a technical analysis of the design . Many replicas of he Sray were made, in the book are pictures of  the ULULA sailing in the Bristol channel (UK) in 1963, the SAINT KILDA SPRAY refitted and relaunched in Melbourne, and many others. PANDORA , built in Perth,  photo taken in 1911, in New York Harbour, during her ill fated round the world cruise. Pandora was the first small craft sailing around Cape Horn. Pandora had inside ballast. She sailed from Australia, where she was built and passed Cape Horn Jan 16, 1911. A week later she almost met disaster when struck by a huge wave that rolled her completely over. A Norwegian whaling vessel was met with soon after, which towed into Falkland Islands where repairs were effected. Pandora then crossed to St.Helena and then Ascension Island before starting for New York, where she arrived June 23, 1911, having taken just 13 months and 20 days for the trip of over 22,000 miles. From New York the Pandora was bound across the Atlantic to London but alas, she never reached that port. Ballast keels are a relatively modern innovation. Old time vessels, and particularly those engaged in trading (mind Slocum was a merchant navy captain), generally carried their ballast all inside, so it could be moved to regulate the trim. In those times such things as ballast ratios were unheard of. Ballast (inside) ratio of the Spray was 18.63 percent. The author calculated the stability curve giving a righting lever  of 2. 9/16 in  and and a correspondent righting moment of 7,575 ft.lb at 90 degrees heel. At 100 deg. the stability is negative: - 3. 6/16 in. lever with a correspondent righting moment  -10,100 ft.lb. Her max. stability was at 30 deg with a righting lever of 1 ft - 7.5/16 in and a righting moment of 59,158 ft.lb.  The statement of Brent is correct (couldn't be otherwise: he is our great teacher), but she was a ship of her times. It would not be easy to heel her over 90 deg. Interesting little ship indeed. Mauro Gonzaga --- On Fri, 4/23/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Joshua Slocum To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 23, 2010, 12:49 AM   With it's extreme beam, shallow keel, and short mast it would be hard to push a boat like spray beyond a certain angle, Once pushed a bit beyond 90 degrees, there is no way such a beamy shallow boat would ever right itself. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23140|23108|2010-04-25 15:54:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: Joshua Slocum|On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 09:40:49AM -0700, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Old time vessels, > and particularly those engaged in trading (mind Slocum was a merchant > navy captain), generally carried their ballast all inside, so it could > be moved to regulate the trim. In those times such things as ballast > ratios were unheard of. Interesting statement, that; I'm not sure that it's all that accurate, though. Merchant ship mates and masters were always meticulously aware of their ballast, and often carried sand or other weights when carrying light or bulky cargo so that the ship could be properly trimmed - even before she left the dock. E.g., Joseph Conrad's "Mirror of the Sea" describes his calculations in ballasting his ship (this was the chief mate's responsibility, and he had just signed on as one), as well as the results of his mistake in going by the book rather than the ship's characteristics. This was in 1881 - and this certainly was not a recently-discovered art then, as he makes obvious in the rest of the story. Merchant ships that were "ill at ease" - i.e., improperly ballasted - would do anything from being uncomfortable for all aboard to literally rolling the masts out of themselves and coming apart at sea. Slocum, with all of his merchant experience and sailing in 1895, was certainly aware of this. I feel certain that any sort of technical calculations regarding ballast that we use today were well known and understood then - if not as numbers to be put on paper, then at the very least as iron-clad practical working rules. Those people died when they made that kind of mistakes - since, unlike modern cruising boats, they had very little reserve in hull strength, flotation, etc. All of those things would have been used to their maximum, minus some reasonable safety factor, to transport as much freight as possible - since that was the entire purpose of those ships. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23141|23108|2010-04-25 16:34:46|Denis Buggy|Re: Joshua Slocum|Mauro great post-------- very interesting -------as you have mentioned ballast -could I have your view on stabilized hulls which have little or no ballast -currently the fashion in the US navy and the Australian and Spanish commercial fleet sometimes referred to as trimarans however their design is more accurately described as stabilized hulls -as per USS INDEPENDENCE . regards Denis Buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: mauro gonzaga I am interested in naval architecture, Ballast keels are a relatively modern innovation. Old time vessels, and particularly those engaged in trading (mind Slocum was a merchant navy captain), generally carried their ballast all inside, so it could be moved to regulate the trim. In those times such things as ballast ratios were unheard of. Ballast (inside) ratio of the Spray was 18.63 percent. The author calculated the stability curve giving a righting lever of 2. 9/16 in and and a correspondent righting moment of 7,575 ft.lb at 90 degrees heel. At 100 deg. the stability is negative: - 3. 6/16 in. lever with a correspondent righting moment -10,100 ft.lb. Her max. stability was at 30 deg with a righting lever of 1 ft - 7.5/16 in and a righting moment of 59,158 ft.lb. The statement of Brent is correct (couldn't be otherwise: he is our great teacher), but she was a ship of her times. It would not be easy to heel her over 90 deg. Interesting little ship indeed. Mauro Gonzaga --- On Fri, 4/23/10, brentswain38 wrote: Fom: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Joshua Slocum To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 23, 2010, 12:49 AM With it's extreme beam, shallow keel, and short mast it would be hard to push a boat like spray beyond a certain angle, Once pushed a bit beyond 90 degrees, there is no way such a beamy shallow boat would ever right itself. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23142|23108|2010-04-25 16:39:19|mauro gonzaga|Re: Joshua Slocum|Sure Ben. They knew how to move the loads and relevant effect. I mean that ballast as a concept in use today was not studied. Yachs had considerable ballast, but Spray was born as a working boat. The British yachts "plank on edge" were also called "lead mine", obvious that they knew the importance of weight paced as low as possible. The fin keel started to be used just at the end of the 1800. Spray was built maybe at the beginning of the 1800: She was rotten and layd down in a field when Slocum renewed her, planking and framing.  Mauro --- On Sun, 4/25/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: Interesting statement, that; I'm not sure that it's all that accurate, though. Merchant ship mates and masters were always meticulously aware of their ballast, and often carried sand or other weights when carrying light or bulky cargo so that the ship could be properly trimmed - even before she left the dock. E.g., Joseph Conrad's "Mirror of the Sea" describes his calculations in ballasting his ship (this was the chief mate's responsibility, and he had just signed on as one), as well as the results of his mistake in going by the book rather than the ship's characteristics. This was in 1881 - and this certainly was not a recently-discovered art then, as he makes obvious in the rest of the story. Merchant ships that were "ill at ease" - i.e., improperly ballasted - would do anything from being uncomfortable for all aboard to literally rolling the masts out of themselves and coming apart at sea. Slocum, with all of his merchant experience and sailing in 1895, was certainly aware of this. I feel certain that any sort of technical calculations regarding ballast that we use today were well known and understood then - if not as numbers to be put on paper, then at the very least as iron-clad practical working rules. Those people died when they made that kind of mistakes - since, unlike modern cruising boats, they had very little reserve in hull strength, flotation, etc. All of those things would have been used to their maximum, minus some reasonable safety factor, to transport as much freight as possible - since that was the entire purpose of those ships. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik. com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23143|23108|2010-04-25 17:56:25|mauro gonzaga|Re: Joshua Slocum|Consider two types of stability: 1.Shape. 2. Weight Yachts developed following racing rules which followed traditional standard of construction of the country. British yachts, "deep and narrow" were narrow, heavily ballasted. Based their stability on low centre of gravity. American yachts "broad and shallow" were broad, low weight and little ballast. Based their (transverse) stability on breath. Stability due to the shape basically depends on the formula Ix/Vc where "Ix" is the moment of inertia of the waterline figure referred to the longitudinal axis or axis of simmetry (for transverse stability) "Vc" is the volume of the underwater hull The moment of inertia referred to an axis is the area of the figure multiplied by the square of the distance of its centroid form the axis. In few words a waterplane far from the centre axis gives a great stability because this area is multiplied by the SQUARE of the distance from longitudinal axis.This explain why longitudinal stability (resistance to pitching) is much higher than transverse (mind that the reference axis in this case is the centre transverse.). The Vc (equal to the weight of the water displaced, per Archimedes law) stability is the divisor therefore low weight means high stability. The shape stability gives a very high initial stability which means very steep curve of stability (righting moment against angle of heel), but zero stability at approx. 90 deg. Imagine a sheet of polystirene: broad and shallow, great initial stability, zero at 90 deg. and WORST, same stability when upside down, therefore almost impossible to right up.. Multihulls have figure of floating far from the centre and light displacement which gives the best result to the formula Ix/Vc. Contrary is the behaviour of the deep and narrow boats: low initial stability, but positive stability also when capsized. Imagine a block of lead below a narrow block of light material. And, of course, nothing is absolute, consider the combination of weight and shape. it is the modern, moderate, monohull. Fair wind. Mauro    --- On Sun, 4/25/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Joshua Slocum To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 25, 2010, 9:54 PM   On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 09:40:49AM -0700, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Old time vessels, > and particularly those engaged in trading (mind Slocum was a merchant > navy captain), generally carried their ballast all inside, so it could > be moved to regulate the trim. In those times such things as ballast > ratios were unheard of. Interesting statement, that; I'm not sure that it's all that accurate, though. Merchant ship mates and masters were always meticulously aware of their ballast, and often carried sand or other weights when carrying light or bulky cargo so that the ship could be properly trimmed - even before she left the dock. E.g., Joseph Conrad's "Mirror of the Sea" describes his calculations in ballasting his ship (this was the chief mate's responsibility, and he had just signed on as one), as well as the results of his mistake in going by the book rather than the ship's characteristics. This was in 1881 - and this certainly was not a recently-discovered art then, as he makes obvious in the rest of the story. Merchant ships that were "ill at ease" - i.e., improperly ballasted - would do anything from being uncomfortable for all aboard to literally rolling the masts out of themselves and coming apart at sea. Slocum, with all of his merchant experience and sailing in 1895, was certainly aware of this. I feel certain that any sort of technical calculations regarding ballast that we use today were well known and understood then - if not as numbers to be put on paper, then at the very least as iron-clad practical working rules. Those people died when they made that kind of mistakes - since, unlike modern cruising boats, they had very little reserve in hull strength, flotation, etc. All of those things would have been used to their maximum, minus some reasonable safety factor, to transport as much freight as possible - since that was the entire purpose of those ships. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik. com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23144|23108|2010-04-25 18:05:14|Ben Okopnik|Re: Joshua Slocum|On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 01:39:12PM -0700, mauro gonzaga wrote: > Sure Ben. They knew how to move the loads and relevant effect. I mean > that ballast as a concept in use today was not studied. Yachs had > considerable ballast, but Spray was born as a working boat. This is true - but Slocum modified her a good bit, as he described in the first chapter and the appendix. He mentions carrying "concrete cement" ballast, of which he took out three tons while at Keeling so he could ship some Tridacna shells, which implies that he carried more than that (perhaps significantly more.) For a 36' boat, that's a decent bit of weight in the bilges; It would be quite difficult to roll her 90°. Of course, I agree with Brent in this - anything past that would be a disaster. But then, rolling would be a disaster for 95% of the boats out there, despite all the calculations: the boat itself may come up (minus its spars, pilothouse, etc.), but the crew will most likely be on its way to Davy Jones' locker - or at least hurt so badly that they won't be able to get back on board. I've seen a number of boats that experienced serious problems like knock-downs, broken sticks, etc., and at least half of them had one or more people hurt - usually badly - and a number had lost people overboard. I'm not saying that designing for negative inverse stability, etc. is a bad idea - even a de-masted boat is a hell of a lot better than swimming in mid-ocean - but relying on those numbers to save you would be a tremendously bad idea. > The > British yachts "plank on edge" were also called "lead mine", obvious > that they knew the importance of weight paced as low as possible. Heh. Yeah, those were also described as being "like a half-tide rock": since they didn't lift to the seas as they should, their decks got swept with monotonous regularity in bad weather. We've certainly evolved past *that* idea. :) > The > fin keel started to be used just at the end of the 1800. Spray was > built maybe at the beginning of the 1800: She was rotten and layd down > in a field when Slocum renewed her, planking and framing.  Oh, the Spray certainly didn't use any external ballast or a fin keel; again, Slocum is pretty clear on that in the appendix. But leave out the proper amount of ballast, or not be aware of its importance? He certainly knew better than that, and he almost certainly knew, by experience and practice, exactly the amount necessary. ------------------------------------------------------------------- I had three anchors, weighing forty pounds, one hundred pounds, and one hundred and eighty pounds respectively. The windlass and the forty-pound anchor, and the "fiddle-head," or carving, on the end of the cutwater, belonged to the original Spray. The ballast, concrete cement, was stanchioned down securely. There was no iron or lead or other weight on the keel. If I took measurements by rule I did not set them down, and after sailing even the longest voyage in her I could not tell offhand the length of her mast, boom, or gaff. I did not know the center of effort in her sails, except as it hit me in practice at sea, nor did I care a rope yarn about it. Mathematical calculations, however, are all right in a good boat, and the Spray could have stood them. She was easily balanced and easily kept in trim. -- from the Appendix, "Sailing Alone Around The World" ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23145|23108|2010-04-25 18:30:35|Paul Wilson|Re: Joshua Slocum|I don't know if the Spray was an early form of Skipjack but the hull design sure looks similar to my eyes. I am sure there were many different variations. Nevertheless, the purpose of the Spray (an oyster boat) and the Skipjack was the same. Priorities were shoal draft, low freeboard and initial stability to allow lifting and working of the dredges with minimal crew. It made for an extremely wide, shallow hull. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skipjack_(boat) The modern versions of the Spray like the Roberts designs are not nearly so extreme and far removed from the original design, in my opinion. They are generally deeper, with more ballast in a deeper keel and more freeboard. Having encountered a few, I do know they don't sail well. Maybe the original sailed much better. I wonder what Joshua would think of them, if he were alive today. Cheers, Paul| 23146|23108|2010-04-25 18:36:40|mauro gonzaga|Re: Joshua Slocum|I think the origin of the Spray design is in the Nederlands. Mauro --- On Mon, 4/26/10, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Joshua Slocum To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, April 26, 2010, 12:30 AM   I don't know if the Spray was an early form of Skipjack but the hull design sure looks similar to my eyes. I am sure there were many different variations. Nevertheless, the purpose of the Spray (an oyster boat) and the Skipjack was the same. Priorities were shoal draft, low freeboard and initial stability to allow lifting and working of the dredges with minimal crew. It made for an extremely wide, shallow hull. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23147|22979|2010-04-25 19:23:53|brentswain38|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|No Pull the tubes out of the heat exchanger and weld the ends shut. Then go for a water cooled exhaust manifold with the water from that running into the skeg. Heat exchangers make the skeg cooling a lot less efficient. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Brent, > I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for skeg cooling? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by no means mandatory. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a transmission that works for a boat > > > > > > > > > > > > > detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it just > > > > worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans-Atlantic, > > > > Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23148|23134|2010-04-25 19:36:43|brentswain38|Re: Bulwark caps and pipe dimensions.|I didn't use galv on the bulwarks of my last boat , a big mistake. Bulwarks are extremely prone to paint chipping. It's possible to sandblast without taking the galv off. You could put split plastic pipe over it, to protect it during sandblasting. Your metric pipe sounds good, but given the choice , I'd go for the thicker wall. The weight difference is minimal. 1/8th 6011 welds it fine. Wire feed doesn't like galv at all. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kimdxx" wrote: > > > Hi all ... > > On the plans for my 26-footer Brent has specified that the lifelines and bulwark caps are to be "3/4" ID sch 40 pipe". I'll be using galvanized pipe, as I can't afford stainless for this. > > Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a constant International standard for defining pipe dimensions. Down here in Aus pipe is sold with a somewhat different nomenclature, and is referred to as having a particular "nominal bore" (NB), and then varying wall thicknesses ("Extra Light", "Light", "Medium", "Heavy", and "Extra Heavy") for a given NB. > > From what I've been able to find out from web searches, "3/4" ID sch 40 pipe" has these dimensions: 1.05" (26.67mm) OD - 0.824" (20.93mm) ID - 0.113" (2.87mm) wall thickness. Does that sound about right? > > If so, then the closest equivalent here would be 20mm NB, which has 26.9mm OD. The 20mm NB "medium" wall thickness is 2.6mm, and the 20mm NB "heavy" wall thickness is 3.2mm. > > Should I go for the 2.6mm wall, or the 3.2mm wall? Or doesn't it make much difference? If it's strong enough I would prefer to use the 2.6mm wall as it will be lighter. > > Talking of the bulwark cap: does it really matter if it is ordinary black steel pipe (not galvanized)? If galvanized it will be trickier to weld, and maybe most of its galvanizing gets blown away by the final exterior sandblasting anyway? > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > ______________________________ > | 23149|23134|2010-04-25 19:43:44|brentswain38|Re: Bulwark caps and pipe dimensions.|I've been told that the Sugar industry and brewries put out a lot of scrap stainless in Queensland. As long as pipes are welded shut and airtight, there is no corrosion inside. I have used split plastic pipe where I drag my dinghy over my bulwarks, for decades. No problem, altho stainless there would be worthwhile , if you can't afford it everywhere. A couple of feet back from the bows, and on the stern quarters, would also help. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:55:15AM -0000, kimdxx wrote: > > > > Hi all ... > > > > On the plans for my 26-footer Brent has specified that the lifelines > > and bulwark caps are to be "3/4" ID sch 40 pipe". I'll be using > > galvanized pipe, as I can't afford stainless for this. > > Oh, if we all had to go around _affording_ stuff, the boats would never > get built. :) Sure, buying stainless retail is just a way to destroy > your entire budget in one go - but if you're looking for a boat's worth > of stainless, you should hunt up a junkyard or a recycler and see if you > can get the stainless at scrap prices. > > > Talking of the bulwark cap: does it really matter if it is ordinary > > black steel pipe (not galvanized)? If galvanized it will be trickier > > to weld, and maybe most of its galvanizing gets blown away by the > > final exterior sandblasting anyway? > > Given my experience with black pipe and galvanized used for bulwark > caps, I'd never, ever do it on a boat that I was building. Anything but > stainless will rust out from the inside, leaving you to redo the whole > job from scratch - and it's a hell of a lot harder to do after the > boat's completed than during the building process. Use stainless. Trust > me, you'll thank yourself any time you drag something sharp and heavy > (like a dinghy) over the bulwarks, or whenever another boat drags its > anchor and scrrrrrapes all the way down your rail. > > I've done a really crappy job of paint maintenance on Ulysses for the > past several years (lots of various reasons... but I'm finally starting > to get on it.) I'd say that 90% of the rust I see right now is from my > non-stainless toerail, plus ~8"-high rusty area on the starboard side of > my stern, where the dinghy painter chafes off all the paint (I keep > reminding myself to weld a piece of stainless angle on that corner, but > still haven't gotten a round tuit.) > > Point is, wherever there's chafe on a regular basis, you really need > stainless. There's just no good way to get around that. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23150|23134|2010-04-25 20:01:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: Bulwark caps and pipe dimensions.|On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 11:42:43PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > I've been told that the Sugar industry and brewries put out a lot of > scrap stainless in Queensland. > As long as pipes are welded shut and airtight, there is no corrosion inside. > I have used split plastic pipe where I drag my dinghy over my > bulwarks, for decades. No problem, altho stainless there would be > worthwhile , if you can't afford it everywhere. A couple of feet > back from the bows, and on the stern quarters, would also help. I've also heard of people filling black-iron or galv pipes with oil before welding tehm shut; I'm told it works, but don't know from personal experience. I sure do wish that my bulwark caps were stainless, though - I'm either going to have to replace the entire thing, which would be a huge pain, or, as you say, chop out chunks of it and weld in some shorter SS pieces. For anybody going the latter route, I also recommend having a piece right where you come into the cockpit. I promise you, you're going to chew it up over the years. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23151|22979|2010-04-25 21:26:18|martin demers|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Gord, Pathfinder uses Bowman water exhaust heat exchanger unit. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gschnell@... Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:51:04 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust Martin If I understand, you must have a Pathfinder water-cooled exhaust manifold or equivalent. If so, use it and cool it with your skeg coolant. That way, you will eliminate a huge amount of engine bay heat from the manifold. I would run the engine coolant, from the skeg thru the engine and then the "water exhaust" exchanger. If that puts too much heat load on the skeg coolant, then consider deleting or partially bypassing the exhaust heat exchanger. That way, you will get rid of some exhaust heat. Who manufactured your water exhaust exchanger system?? Gord > > Gord, > Inside the water exhaust there is a heat exchanger that cools the > engine coolant with the sea water.If I am not using the sea water > but the skeg coolant instead to cool my engine, do I keep the heat > exchanger or can I remove it and let the engine coolant run freely > inside the water exhaust? > > > Martin. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gschnell@... > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:39:29 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > I'm not clear what you are asking me. Can you expand on the question a > > bit? > > Gord > > > > On 23-Apr-10, at 9:55 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > >> > >> Gord, > >> do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? > >> Martin. > >> > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> From: gschnell@... > >> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:17:46 -0700 > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. > >> > >> Gord > >> > >> > >> > >> On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Brent, > >> > >>> I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > >> > >>> keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > >> > >>> skeg cooling? > >> > >>> Martin. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > >>> From: brentswain38@... > >> > >>> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > >> > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > >> > >>> easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by no > >> > >>> means mandatory. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > >> > >>> wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust > >> > >>>> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a > >> > >>>> transmission that works for a boat > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it > >>>>> just > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- > >> > >>>>> Atlantic, > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> -- > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> __________________________________________________________ > >> > >>> Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone > >> > >>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > >> > >>> > >> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >> > >>> > >> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > >> > >>> ! Groups Links > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> Les vid�os qui font jaser! R�solution HD aussi offerte! > >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > _________________________________________________________________ Messenger sur votre t�l�phone = MI sur la route http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724474 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23152|22979|2010-04-25 23:26:08|Gord Schnell|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Thanks Martin....I had forgotten who made them. Before I even started my boat, I was introduced to a fellow who owned a fiberglass boat with a VW engine installed - Pathfinder complete. Nice installation and almost silent when running. That sold me on VW. Truth be known, if I were to "stumble" on a Bowman water-cooled manifold for my VW, I'd give it some serious thought. It would get rid of most engine bay heat. Gord On 25-Apr-10, at 6:26 PM, martin demers wrote: > > Gord, > Pathfinder uses Bowman water exhaust heat exchanger unit. > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gschnell@... > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:51:04 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > If I understand, you must have a Pathfinder water-cooled exhaust > > manifold or equivalent. > > If so, use it and cool it with your skeg coolant. That way, you will > > eliminate a huge amount of engine bay heat from the manifold. I would > > run the engine coolant, from the skeg thru the engine and then the > > "water exhaust" exchanger. If that puts too much heat load on the skeg > > coolant, then consider deleting or partially bypassing the exhaust > > heat exchanger. That way, you will get rid of some exhaust heat. > > Who manufactured your water exhaust exchanger system?? > > Gord > > > >> > >> Gord, > >> Inside the water exhaust there is a heat exchanger that cools the > >> engine coolant with the sea water.If I am not using the sea water > >> but the skeg coolant instead to cool my engine, do I keep the heat > >> exchanger or can I remove it and let the engine coolant run freely > >> inside the water exhaust? > >> > >> > >> Martin. > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> From: gschnell@... > >> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:39:29 -0700 > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> I'm not clear what you are asking me. Can you expand on the >> question a > >> > >> bit? > >> > >> Gord > >> > >> > >> > >> On 23-Apr-10, at 9:55 AM, martin demers wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Gord, > >> > >>> do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? > >> > >>> Martin. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > >>> From: gschnell@... > >> > >>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:17:46 -0700 > >> > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Gord > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> Brent, > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> skeg cooling? > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> Martin. > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> From: brentswain38@... > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by >>>> no > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> means mandatory. > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> transmission that works for a boat > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it > >> > >>>>>> just > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>>> Atlantic, > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>>> -- > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> __________________________________________________________ > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> ------------------------------------ > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> ! Groups Links > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> __________________________________________________________ > >> > >>> Les vidéos qui font jaser! Résolution HD aussi offerte! > >> > >>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 > >> > >>> > >> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >> > >>> > >> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > >> > >>> ! Groups Links > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Messenger sur votre téléphone = MI sur la route > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724474 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23153|23134|2010-04-26 03:29:35|kimdxx|Re: Bulwark caps and pipe dimensions.|Hi Brent, Haidan, Ben, and Shane ... Many thanks for all your input. Very much appreciated! You've definitely convinced me that I should use stainless for the bulwarks, stanchions and lifelines! So I'll bite the bullet and replace the galvanized pipe in my steel order with #304 or #304L stainless pipe. Shane you make a very good point when you say that because the chainplates are welded to the bulwark, the extra wall thickness there wouldn't go astray. And as Brent said the weight difference would be minimal. So the thicker wall it is! :-) Thanks again! Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com PS: The last time I built a boat (almost 20 years ago (it was wood, not steel)) there seemed to be big scrap metal merchants on almost every corner. They would weigh my trailer on the way in, let me wander amongst their very well-stocked and diverse racks, pick what I wanted, weigh the trailer again on the way out, and charge very little per kilo for the difference. It seems those days are long gone. The very few big yards that are still operating are reluctant to sell to the public at all. They say all their stuff is pre-sold and goes offshore (China maybe?). There's still a few very small scrapyards around; but from what I've seen so far they only have little pieces of pretty useless junk that makes the exercise hardly worth the effort. All of which makes it a bit difficult for the backyard boatbuilder on a budget. But then again, there doesn't seem to be that many backyard boatbuilders around here any more either (compared to the numbers 20 years ago). Oh well, all that's a good thing for the pop-out fibreglass boatbuilding industry, I suppose! :-) Cheers ... Kim. _______________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kimdxx" wrote: Hi all ... On the plans for my 26-footer Brent has specified that the lifelines and bulwark caps are to be "3/4" ID sch 40 pipe". I'll be using galvanized pipe, as I can't afford stainless for this. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a constant International standard for defining pipe dimensions. Down here in Aus pipe is sold with a somewhat different nomenclature, and is referred to as having a particular "nominal bore" (NB), and then varying wall thicknesses ("Extra Light", "Light", "Medium", "Heavy", and "Extra Heavy") for a given NB. From what I've been able to find out from web searches, "3/4" ID sch 40 pipe" has these dimensions: 1.05" (26.67mm) OD - 0.824" (20.93mm) ID - 0.113" (2.87mm) wall thickness. Does that sound about right? If so, then the closest equivalent here would be 20mm NB, which has 26.9mm OD. The 20mm NB "medium" wall thickness is 2.6mm, and the 20mm NB "heavy" wall thickness is 3.2mm. Should I go for the 2.6mm wall, or the 3.2mm wall? Or doesn't it make much difference? If it's strong enough I would prefer to use the 2.6mm wall as it will be lighter. Talking of the bulwark cap: does it really matter if it is ordinary black steel pipe (not galvanized)? If galvanized it will be trickier to weld, and maybe most of its galvanizing gets blown away by the final exterior sandblasting anyway? Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com ______________________________ | 23154|23134|2010-04-26 10:40:12|Shane Duncan|Re: Bulwark caps and pipe dimensions.|Kim   If possible go for 316L  over 304 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23155|23155|2010-04-26 20:42:09|Mark Hamill|DIY Folding Dinghy plans|I have scanned the Wooden Boat plans for the folding dinghy if anybody wants it. I'm wondering if one could use aluminum or that marine plastic board for the lower joint cover and fabric reinforced vinyl instead of the neoprene it mentions. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23156|23156|2010-04-27 00:24:41|Don & Karina|Re: Galvanized Bulwark caps and oiling|I believe older tubing type aircraft used oil for anti-corrosion. What they did was put in a bunch of linseed oil in the tubes and then they actually spun the frame around (these are light planes) to distribute the oil. I'm not too sure how one would accomplish this in a boat but I'm sure some method To distribute the oil could be found. If one had to build using galvanized then it might be worth a shot. That's it for my once every 6 months comments. Don Bourgeois [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23157|23157|2010-04-27 03:18:31|Denis Buggy|Re: stabilised hulls|THANKS MAURO--- VERY CLEAR-- NO PREJUDICE EITHER WAY JUST THE FACTS --A RARE POST INDEED. REGARDS DENIS ----- Original Message ----- From: mauro gonzaga To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Joshua Slocum Consider two types of stability: 1.Shape. 2. Weight Yachts developed following racing rules which followed traditional standard of construction of the country. British yachts, "deep and narrow" were narrow, heavily ballasted. Based their stability on low centre of gravity. American yachts "broad and shallow" were broad, low weight and little ballast. Based their (transverse) stability on breath. Stability due to the shape basically depends on the formula Ix/Vc where "Ix" is the moment of inertia of the waterline figure referred to the longitudinal axis or axis of simmetry (for transverse stability) "Vc" is the volume of the underwater hull The moment of inertia referred to an axis is the area of the figure multiplied by the square of the distance of its centroid form the axis. In few words a waterplane far from the centre axis gives a great stability because this area is multiplied by the SQUARE of the distance from longitudinal axis.This explain why longitudinal stability (resistance to pitching) is much higher than transverse (mind that the reference axis in this case is the centre transverse.). The Vc (equal to the weight of the water displaced, per Archimedes law) stability is the divisor therefore low weight means high stability. The shape stability gives a very high initial stability which means very steep curve of stability (righting moment against angle of heel), but zero stability at approx. 90 deg. Imagine a sheet of polystirene: broad and shallow, great initial stability, zero at 90 deg. and WORST, same stability when upside down, therefore almost impossible to right up.. Multihulls have figure of floating far from the centre and light displacement which gives the best result to the formula Ix/Vc. Contrary is the behaviour of the deep and narrow boats: low initial stability, but positive stability also when capsized. Imagine a block of lead below a narrow block of light material. And, of course, nothing is absolute, consider the combination of weight and shape. it is the modern, moderate, monohull. Fair wind. Mauro --- On Sun, 4/25/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Joshua Slocum To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 25, 2010, 9:54 PM On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 09:40:49AM -0700, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Old time vessels, > and particularly those engaged in trading (mind Slocum was a merchant > navy captain), generally carried their ballast all inside, so it could > be moved to regulate the trim. In those times such things as ballast > ratios were unheard of. Interesting statement, that; I'm not sure that it's all that accurate, though. Merchant ship mates and masters were always meticulously aware of their ballast, and often carried sand or other weights when carrying light or bulky cargo so that the ship could be properly trimmed - even before she left the dock. E.g., Joseph Conrad's "Mirror of the Sea" describes his calculations in ballasting his ship (this was the chief mate's responsibility, and he had just signed on as one), as well as the results of his mistake in going by the book rather than the ship's characteristics. This was in 1881 - and this certainly was not a recently-discovered art then, as he makes obvious in the rest of the story. Merchant ships that were "ill at ease" - i.e., improperly ballasted - would do anything from being uncomfortable for all aboard to literally rolling the masts out of themselves and coming apart at sea. Slocum, with all of his merchant experience and sailing in 1895, was certainly aware of this. I feel certain that any sort of technical calculations regarding ballast that we use today were well known and understood then - if not as numbers to be put on paper, then at the very least as iron-clad practical working rules. Those people died when they made that kind of mistakes - since, unlike modern cruising boats, they had very little reserve in hull strength, flotation, etc. All of those things would have been used to their maximum, minus some reasonable safety factor, to transport as much freight as possible - since that was the entire purpose of those ships. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik. com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23158|23156|2010-04-27 11:10:50|Matt Malone|Oil in Tubes|Linseed oil is really cool stuff. It absorbs oxygen and turns to a progressively more gooey, then plastic-like material. If allowed to absorb all the oxygen it wants, linseed oil will of course harden like paint. Linseed oil was a large component of old-style paints. If these aircraft tubes were intentionally open somewhere, then essentially, all they are doing is painting the inside of the tubes with an oily, possibly slow-drying paint to seal the surfaces. For open tubes, there is the possibility of taking advantage of more modern surface preparations, possibly in stages. For instance there is the possibility of phosphate treating the inside of the tubes first, by putting a phosphate solution in, then draining it out and drying the moisture from the inside by forcing hot dry air through. One might repeat this with other products before finishing with linseed oil. If one cannot seal the tubes, I am guessing there might be a more modern paint-like product that might do the sealing job better in a possibly salt-water environment. Allowing the volatiles to escape, or encouraging them to do so by forcing warm air through the tubes would be important. However ! If the tubes are carefully closed and sealed however, there is another effect with linseed oil. The linseed oil being highly reactive with oxygen, would absorb all the oxygen from the air in the tubes, and tightly bind it in its organic structure. Theoretically this could prevent corrosion, if the tubes remained sealed. Somehow one would want to remove all the residual moisture first also. If there were small pin-holes, the linseed oil would be prone to seeping out (telling you where the holes are) and also gelling and plugging the holes. If I were making hand rails or a traveler arch or something that I might install as a subassembly onto the boat, I might try to seal it and use linseed oil inside it. Filling the tubes with a petroleum oil (which I believe was what someone else suggested) would seal the metal surface from the oxygen, which is good, but would not consume the oxygen in the tube like linseed oil would, which is better. Linseed oil is really cool stuff. Double-boiled linseed oil is really fast-reacting, good for starting spontaneous combustion fires, so care must be taken that it does not leak out sometime later and soak into organic fibres, like clothing, towels, cloths, newspapers and such. With favourable geometry, I have gotten double boiled linseed oil to make open flames in as little as 20 minutes. Pay attention to the warnings on the bottle. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: donrina@... Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:24:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Galvanized Bulwark caps and oiling I believe older tubing type aircraft used oil for anti-corrosion. What they did was put in a bunch of linseed oil in the tubes and then they actually spun the frame around (these are light planes) to distribute the oil. I'm not too sure how one would accomplish this in a boat but I'm sure some method To distribute the oil could be found. If one had to build using galvanized then it might be worth a shot. That's it for my once every 6 months comments. Don Bourgeois [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23159|23108|2010-04-27 12:10:11|maxcamirand|Re: Joshua Slocum|Hi GP, Slocum didn't choose the Spray as the ideal vessel for his voyage. He used the boat he had. Better designs existed at the time (and today) for the purpose. Being a master seaman, he was certainly aware of the limitations of his boat, and sailed it accordingly. Regards, -Max --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > "Years later, an analysis by Howard I. Chapelle, curator of maritime history at the Smithsonian Institution and a noted expert on small sailing-craft, demonstrated that the Spray was stable under most circumstances but could easily capsize if heeled beyond a relatively shallow angle. He felt that Slocum was merely lucky that his unstable vessel had not killed him earlier" > > After re-reading Sailing Around the World, as I needed some inspiration to survive snow in Sudbury Ontario as recent as yesterday, I noted this quote in Wikepedia which seemed grossly incorrect in view of Slocums 46,000 miles and 3 years circumnavigation. > > Anyone familiar with this classic... any opinions on that claim? > | 23160|23108|2010-04-27 13:43:43|brentswain38|Re: Joshua Slocum|Slocum admitted this, when he said there were far better boats available for the job, but he simply used the Spray because that was all he had. Spray fans ever since have clearly missed this point which he so clearly points out. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "maxcamirand" wrote: > > Hi GP, > > Slocum didn't choose the Spray as the ideal vessel for his voyage. He used the boat he had. Better designs existed at the time (and today) for the purpose. Being a master seaman, he was certainly aware of the limitations of his boat, and sailed it accordingly. > > Regards, > -Max > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > "Years later, an analysis by Howard I. Chapelle, curator of maritime history at the Smithsonian Institution and a noted expert on small sailing-craft, demonstrated that the Spray was stable under most circumstances but could easily capsize if heeled beyond a relatively shallow angle. He felt that Slocum was merely lucky that his unstable vessel had not killed him earlier" > > > > After re-reading Sailing Around the World, as I needed some inspiration to survive snow in Sudbury Ontario as recent as yesterday, I noted this quote in Wikepedia which seemed grossly incorrect in view of Slocums 46,000 miles and 3 years circumnavigation. > > > > Anyone familiar with this classic... any opinions on that claim? > > > | 23161|22979|2010-04-27 13:45:56|brentswain38|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|For most diesels, a watercooled manifold is extremely easy to build, but VW has made it difficult.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Thanks Martin....I had forgotten who made them. Before I even started > my boat, I was introduced to a fellow who owned a fiberglass boat with > a VW engine installed - Pathfinder complete. Nice installation and > almost silent when running. That sold me on VW. > Truth be known, if I were to "stumble" on a Bowman water-cooled > manifold for my VW, I'd give it some serious thought. It would get rid > of most engine bay heat. > Gord > > On 25-Apr-10, at 6:26 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Gord, > > Pathfinder uses Bowman water exhaust heat exchanger unit. > > > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: gschnell@... > > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:51:04 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > If I understand, you must have a Pathfinder water-cooled exhaust > > > > manifold or equivalent. > > > > If so, use it and cool it with your skeg coolant. That way, you will > > > > eliminate a huge amount of engine bay heat from the manifold. I would > > > > run the engine coolant, from the skeg thru the engine and then the > > > > "water exhaust" exchanger. If that puts too much heat load on the skeg > > > > coolant, then consider deleting or partially bypassing the exhaust > > > > heat exchanger. That way, you will get rid of some exhaust heat. > > > > Who manufactured your water exhaust exchanger system?? > > > > Gord > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Gord, > > > >> Inside the water exhaust there is a heat exchanger that cools the > > > >> engine coolant with the sea water.If I am not using the sea water > > > >> but the skeg coolant instead to cool my engine, do I keep the heat > > > >> exchanger or can I remove it and let the engine coolant run freely > > > >> inside the water exhaust? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Martin. > > > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> From: gschnell@... > > > >> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:39:29 -0700 > > > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Martin > > > >> > > > >> I'm not clear what you are asking me. Can you expand on the > >> question a > > > >> > > > >> bit? > > > >> > > > >> Gord > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 23-Apr-10, at 9:55 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> Gord, > > > >> > > > >>> do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? > > > >> > > > >>> Martin. > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >>> From: gschnell@... > > > >> > > > >>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:17:46 -0700 > > > >> > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> Gord > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> Brent, > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> skeg cooling? > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> Martin. > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> From: brentswain38@... > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by > >>>> no > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> means mandatory. > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> transmission that works for a boat > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it > > > >> > > > >>>>>> just > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> Atlantic, > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> -- > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> __________________________________________________________ > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> ! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> __________________________________________________________ > > > >> > > > >>> Les vidéos qui font jaser! Résolution HD aussi offerte! > > > >> > > > >>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> ------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > > >> > > > >>> ! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > >> Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > > > >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > > >> > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > > >> ! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Messenger sur votre téléphone = MI sur la route > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724474 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 23162|23156|2010-04-27 13:50:59|brentswain38|Re: Oil in Tubes|One outside oxygen has been sealed out , there is not enough oxygen in the air inside to cause even noticeable corrosion, before it drops to too low a level to cause any corrosion. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Linseed oil is really cool stuff. It absorbs oxygen and turns to a progressively more gooey, then plastic-like material. If allowed to absorb all the oxygen it wants, linseed oil will of course harden like paint. Linseed oil was a large component of old-style paints. > > > > If these aircraft tubes were intentionally open somewhere, then essentially, all they are doing is painting the inside of the tubes with an oily, possibly slow-drying paint to seal the surfaces. For open tubes, there is the possibility of taking advantage of more modern surface preparations, possibly in stages. For instance there is the possibility of phosphate treating the inside of the tubes first, by putting a phosphate solution in, then draining it out and drying the moisture from the inside by forcing hot dry air through. One might repeat this with other products before finishing with linseed oil. > > > > If one cannot seal the tubes, I am guessing there might be a more modern paint-like product that might do the sealing job better in a possibly salt-water environment. Allowing the volatiles to escape, or encouraging them to do so by forcing warm air through the tubes would be important. > > > > However ! > > > > If the tubes are carefully closed and sealed however, there is another effect with linseed oil. The linseed oil being highly reactive with oxygen, would absorb all the oxygen from the air in the tubes, and tightly bind it in its organic structure. Theoretically this could prevent corrosion, if the tubes remained sealed. Somehow one would want to remove all the residual moisture first also. If there were small pin-holes, the linseed oil would be prone to seeping out (telling you where the holes are) and also gelling and plugging the holes. > > > > If I were making hand rails or a traveler arch or something that I might install as a subassembly onto the boat, I might try to seal it and use linseed oil inside it. > > > > Filling the tubes with a petroleum oil (which I believe was what someone else suggested) would seal the metal surface from the oxygen, which is good, but would not consume the oxygen in the tube like linseed oil would, which is better. > > > > Linseed oil is really cool stuff. Double-boiled linseed oil is really fast-reacting, good for starting spontaneous combustion fires, so care must be taken that it does not leak out sometime later and soak into organic fibres, like clothing, towels, cloths, newspapers and such. With favourable geometry, I have gotten double boiled linseed oil to make open flames in as little as 20 minutes. Pay attention to the warnings on the bottle. > > > > Matt > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: donrina@... > Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:24:32 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Galvanized Bulwark caps and oiling > > > > > > I believe older tubing type aircraft used oil for anti-corrosion. What they > > did was put in a bunch of linseed oil in the tubes and then they actually > spun > > the frame around (these are light planes) to distribute the oil. > > I'm not too sure how one would accomplish this in a boat but I'm sure some > method > > To distribute the oil could be found. > > If one had to build using galvanized then it might be worth a shot. > > That's it for my once every 6 months comments. > > Don Bourgeois > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23163|21460|2010-04-27 20:53:38|wild_explorer|Re: Modeling of BS36|Displacement / Length ratio = 290 (moderate cruiser) Ballast ratio = 33% (lightly ballasted). Number < 30 is for inshore_fair_weather use only) Max Speed (for displacement hull) = 7.34 kn Reasonable power input is about 2-3Hp per ton of displacement Capsize risk = 1.57 Very good. Must be < 1.7 for ocean cruiser, not so many modern sailboats meet this criteria) Comfort factor = 37 Very good. 30-40 is recommended for cruising boats 25min, 50max) Roll period sec = 4.16 Very good. Stiff < Optimal is 4 - 8 sec < Tender) Roll Acceleration (comfort/discomfort factor for crew) = 0.046 Must be < 0.06 for cruising boat. Not so many boats meet this criteria) Angle of Vanishing Stability = 164 deg. Very good. It would be interesting to see stability curve for BS36. These are estimate numbers based on Ted Brewer and John Holtrop formulas. I used guesstimates for waterline beam, hull draft without keel, length of waterline. Some online calculators are here: http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__avs.htm| 23164|22979|2010-04-28 06:47:22|martin demers|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Brent, VW manifold is made of aluminium, what kind of connector should I use to connect it to the exhaust pipe? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:45:10 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust For most diesels, a watercooled manifold is extremely easy to build, but VW has made it difficult.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Thanks Martin....I had forgotten who made them. Before I even started > my boat, I was introduced to a fellow who owned a fiberglass boat with > a VW engine installed - Pathfinder complete. Nice installation and > almost silent when running. That sold me on VW. > Truth be known, if I were to "stumble" on a Bowman water-cooled > manifold for my VW, I'd give it some serious thought. It would get rid > of most engine bay heat. > Gord > > On 25-Apr-10, at 6:26 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Gord, > > Pathfinder uses Bowman water exhaust heat exchanger unit. > > > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: gschnell@... > > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:51:04 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > If I understand, you must have a Pathfinder water-cooled exhaust > > > > manifold or equivalent. > > > > If so, use it and cool it with your skeg coolant. That way, you will > > > > eliminate a huge amount of engine bay heat from the manifold. I would > > > > run the engine coolant, from the skeg thru the engine and then the > > > > "water exhaust" exchanger. If that puts too much heat load on the skeg > > > > coolant, then consider deleting or partially bypassing the exhaust > > > > heat exchanger. That way, you will get rid of some exhaust heat. > > > > Who manufactured your water exhaust exchanger system?? > > > > Gord > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Gord, > > > >> Inside the water exhaust there is a heat exchanger that cools the > > > >> engine coolant with the sea water.If I am not using the sea water > > > >> but the skeg coolant instead to cool my engine, do I keep the heat > > > >> exchanger or can I remove it and let the engine coolant run freely > > > >> inside the water exhaust? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Martin. > > > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> From: gschnell@... > > > >> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:39:29 -0700 > > > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Martin > > > >> > > > >> I'm not clear what you are asking me. Can you expand on the > >> question a > > > >> > > > >> bit? > > > >> > > > >> Gord > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 23-Apr-10, at 9:55 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> Gord, > > > >> > > > >>> do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? > > > >> > > > >>> Martin. > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >>> From: gschnell@... > > > >> > > > >>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:17:46 -0700 > > > >> > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> Gord > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> Brent, > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> skeg cooling? > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> Martin. > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> From: brentswain38@... > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by > >>>> no > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> means mandatory. > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> transmission that works for a boat > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it > > > >> > > > >>>>>> just > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> Atlantic, > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> -- > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> __________________________________________________________ > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> ! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> __________________________________________________________ > > > >> > > > >>> Les vid�os qui font jaser! R�solution HD aussi offerte! > > > >> > > > >>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> ------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > > >> > > > >>> ! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > >> Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone > > > >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > > >> > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > > >> ! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Messenger sur votre t�l�phone = MI sur la route > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724474 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23165|23165|2010-04-29 13:01:42|GP|Gulf Oil Catastrophe...|It has been proposed and big oil is lobbying hard to obtain drilling permits or oil exploration off the British Columbia coast. Unfortunately, it takes something like this catastrophe off Louisiana to hopefully prevent these coporations from obtaining drilling permits....at least for now. Gotta tell ya... I keep reading about massive garbage gyres in the open ocean and now this disaster. I can only imagine the shit that will hit the fan in this popular cruising area off Louisiana.... the entire Gulf of Mexico is reported threatened. Press Release ".... we are quite possibly facing the destruction of the Gulf Coast fishing and tourism industries, as well as the ruin of vast areas of irreplaceable wildlife and marine life habitat. A New Orleans-based commentator told the BBC this morning that decades of work to save the Louisiana wetlands will almost certainly be destroyed. He also said that the economic impact on the state from this thing will be like a second Katrina."| 23166|22979|2010-04-29 16:30:04|brentswain38|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|If you have to weld on any extension , you'd want to put gussets on to reduce the chance of fatigue at the joint.Metal fatigue at this point on aluminium is a big risk . You would want flex pipe. If you put silicone high temperature hose over the flex pipe it would cover any leaks from metal fatigue on the flex while the metal flex would take the direct heat. I've been meaning to experiment with this combination . How the silicone stands up depends on how effective the water cooled manifold cooling is. On my engine, the exhaust outlet on the transom was on the opposite side from the engine manifold so I had to run the exhaust across the top of the flywheel. I welded a piece of ss tab on the exhaust pipe, so I could bolt it onto one of the flywheel bolts. This eliminates the chance of metal fatigue from vibration on the manifold . I've had a piece of silicone hose clamped to the pipe for years, and it shows no sign of burning. I guess it is far enough from the head to be cool enough. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent, > VW manifold is made of aluminium, what kind of connector should I use to connect it to the exhaust pipe? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:45:10 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For most diesels, a watercooled manifold is extremely easy to build, but VW has made it difficult.. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Martin....I had forgotten who made them. Before I even started > > > my boat, I was introduced to a fellow who owned a fiberglass boat with > > > a VW engine installed - Pathfinder complete. Nice installation and > > > almost silent when running. That sold me on VW. > > > Truth be known, if I were to "stumble" on a Bowman water-cooled > > > manifold for my VW, I'd give it some serious thought. It would get rid > > > of most engine bay heat. > > > Gord > > > > > > On 25-Apr-10, at 6:26 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Gord, > > > > Pathfinder uses Bowman water exhaust heat exchanger unit. > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: gschnell@ > > > > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:51:04 -0700 > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > If I understand, you must have a Pathfinder water-cooled exhaust > > > > > > > > manifold or equivalent. > > > > > > > > If so, use it and cool it with your skeg coolant. That way, you will > > > > > > > > eliminate a huge amount of engine bay heat from the manifold. I would > > > > > > > > run the engine coolant, from the skeg thru the engine and then the > > > > > > > > "water exhaust" exchanger. If that puts too much heat load on the skeg > > > > > > > > coolant, then consider deleting or partially bypassing the exhaust > > > > > > > > heat exchanger. That way, you will get rid of some exhaust heat. > > > > > > > > Who manufactured your water exhaust exchanger system?? > > > > > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Gord, > > > > > > > >> Inside the water exhaust there is a heat exchanger that cools the > > > > > > > >> engine coolant with the sea water.If I am not using the sea water > > > > > > > >> but the skeg coolant instead to cool my engine, do I keep the heat > > > > > > > >> exchanger or can I remove it and let the engine coolant run freely > > > > > > > >> inside the water exhaust? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Martin. > > > > > > > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> From: gschnell@ > > > > > > > >> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:39:29 -0700 > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Martin > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I'm not clear what you are asking me. Can you expand on the > > > >> question a > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> bit? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Gord > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> On 23-Apr-10, at 9:55 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Gord, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Martin. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> From: gschnell@ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:17:46 -0700 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Gord > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> Brent, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> skeg cooling? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> Martin. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> From: brentswain38@ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by > > > >>>> no > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> means mandatory. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> transmission that works for a boat > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> just > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> Atlantic, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> -- > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> ! Groups Links > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Les vidéos qui font jaser! Résolution HD aussi offerte! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> ! Groups Links > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > > > > > > > >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@ > > > > > > > >> ! Groups Links > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Messenger sur votre téléphone = MI sur la route > > > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724474 > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@ > > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Accès direct à Messenger depuis votre téléphone > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23167|23165|2010-04-29 16:39:57|brentswain38|Re: Gulf Oil Catastrophe...|Thank god they got the wakeup call instead of us. The current BC government has promised to raise the tax on private boat and car sales to 18% ,as of this summer, has given fish farms the go ahead to almost eliminate wild salmon in BC, and looks like , as it doesn't have a hope in hell of getting re-elected, is giving away the farm as quick as it possibly can, so, not giving a rats ass about the future , it wouldn't surprise me if they authorised oil exploration here, on their way out the door. Once oil has been found, it becomes politically far more difficult to stop. So much for the theory that modern technology has eliminated the risks. BULLSHIT! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > It has been proposed and big oil is lobbying hard to obtain drilling permits or oil exploration off the British Columbia coast. Unfortunately, it takes something like this catastrophe off Louisiana to hopefully prevent these coporations from obtaining drilling permits....at least for now. Gotta tell ya... I keep reading about massive garbage gyres in the open ocean and now this disaster. I can only imagine the shit that will hit the fan in this popular cruising area off Louisiana.... the entire Gulf of Mexico is reported threatened. > > Press Release > ".... we are quite possibly facing the destruction of the Gulf Coast fishing and tourism industries, as well as the ruin of vast areas of irreplaceable wildlife and marine life habitat. A New Orleans-based commentator told the BBC this morning that decades of work to save the Louisiana wetlands will almost certainly be destroyed. He also said that the economic impact on the state from this thing will be like a second Katrina." > | 23168|23165|2010-04-29 17:31:37|theboilerflue|Re: Gulf Oil Catastrophe...|I was reading in the vancouver sun last week that the Haida Gwaii Native Band was putting there foot down so to speak and are threatening to start blockading oil tankers in their waters, mainly due to the new oil sands pipe line that's going in on the north BC coast, the reporting was kinda shabby and had no comments from any Haida Guaii-ers. We'll see what comes out of this, could be interesting. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Thank god they got the wakeup call instead of us. > The current BC government has promised to raise the tax on private boat and car sales to 18% ,as of this summer, has given fish farms the go ahead to almost eliminate wild salmon in BC, and looks like , as it doesn't have a hope in hell of getting re-elected, is giving away the farm as quick as it possibly can, so, not giving a rats ass about the future , it wouldn't surprise me if they authorised oil exploration here, on their way out the door. > Once oil has been found, it becomes politically far more difficult to stop. > So much for the theory that modern technology has eliminated the risks. BULLSHIT! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > It has been proposed and big oil is lobbying hard to obtain drilling permits or oil exploration off the British Columbia coast. Unfortunately, it takes something like this catastrophe off Louisiana to hopefully prevent these coporations from obtaining drilling permits....at least for now. Gotta tell ya... I keep reading about massive garbage gyres in the open ocean and now this disaster. I can only imagine the shit that will hit the fan in this popular cruising area off Louisiana.... the entire Gulf of Mexico is reported threatened. > > > > Press Release > > ".... we are quite possibly facing the destruction of the Gulf Coast fishing and tourism industries, as well as the ruin of vast areas of irreplaceable wildlife and marine life habitat. A New Orleans-based commentator told the BBC this morning that decades of work to save the Louisiana wetlands will almost certainly be destroyed. He also said that the economic impact on the state from this thing will be like a second Katrina." > > > | 23169|23169|2010-04-29 19:18:01|brentswain38|Mobilty Ashore|A friend has ordered one of the tiny gas engines that the Chinese are making, which fit on any bike, and will propel a bike up any hill in New Westminster. He is ordering his from Burnaby BC. A USanian told me they are selling like hotcakes in Seattle ,and are everywhere there now. They are small enough to make a bike with one still legally a bike, and thus need no licensing, extra charges on ferries, etc. They cost $125 , making them disposables. Looks like a solution to cruiser mobility ashore. I may soon order one. They also cut funding to the oil industry, as they run on a sniff of gas.| 23170|23169|2010-04-29 21:02:37|martin demers|Re: Mobilty Ashore|I was thinking bringing a Honda XR650L or XR650R on my boat. Talking it apart and assemble it when at destination. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 23:13:20 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Mobilty Ashore A friend has ordered one of the tiny gas engines that the Chinese are making, which fit on any bike, and will propel a bike up any hill in New Westminster. He is ordering his from Burnaby BC. A USanian told me they are selling like hotcakes in Seattle ,and are everywhere there now. They are small enough to make a bike with one still legally a bike, and thus need no licensing, extra charges on ferries, etc. They cost $125 , making them disposables. Looks like a solution to cruiser mobility ashore. I may soon order one. They also cut funding to the oil industry, as they run on a sniff of gas. _________________________________________________________________ Messenger sur votre t�l�phone = MI sur la route http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724474 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23171|23169|2010-04-29 23:48:40|Mark Hamill|Re: Mobilty Ashore|anything with a gas motor is required to ahve a registration. there is also the possibilty of using the pedals and actually cycling which was pointed out to me by a cycling shop employee. i did have to laugh at the appropriateness of it cause i am always trying to do anything but these days--but not so far in the past i used to cycle 20 km to work no problem. Dummy me. MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 4:13 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Mobilty Ashore A friend has ordered one of the tiny gas engines that the Chinese are making, which fit on any bike, and will propel a bike up any hill in New Westminster. He is ordering his from Burnaby BC. A USanian told me they are selling like hotcakes in Seattle ,and are everywhere there now. They are small enough to make a bike with one still legally a bike, and thus need no licensing, extra charges on ferries, etc. They cost $125 , making them disposables. Looks like a solution to cruiser mobility ashore. I may soon order one. They also cut funding to the oil industry, as they run on a sniff of gas. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23172|23165|2010-04-30 03:07:34|giuseppe bergmann|AW: [origamiboats] Gulf Oil Catastrophe...|Despite the fact that Katrina impressively showed the world how third world the state of Lousiana and the U.S. behave concerning the reconstruction of New Orleans and other settlements, the oil will do a lot more of damage towards tourism, fishery and self sustaining living around there. "...as well as the ruin of vast areas of irreplaceable wildlife and marine life habitat..." None of the damages Katrina brought to the Gulf coast destroyed anything "irreplaceble" at all, and not even this comparebly easy challange was mastered by statal and federal bureaucracy up to date ... M. --- GP schrieb am Do, 29.4.2010: Von: GP Betreff: [origamiboats] Gulf Oil Catastrophe... An: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Datum: Donnerstag, 29. April, 2010 18:58 Uhr   It has been proposed and big oil is lobbying hard to obtain drilling permits or oil exploration off the British Columbia coast. Unfortunately, it takes something like this catastrophe off Louisiana to hopefully prevent these coporations from obtaining drilling permits....at least for now. Gotta tell ya... I keep reading about massive garbage gyres in the open ocean and now this disaster. I can only imagine the shit that will hit the fan in this popular cruising area off Louisiana... . the entire Gulf of Mexico is reported threatened. Press Release ".... we are quite possibly facing the destruction of the Gulf Coast fishing and tourism industries, as well as the ruin of vast areas of irreplaceable wildlife and marine life habitat. A New Orleans-based commentator told the BBC this morning that decades of work to save the Louisiana wetlands will almost certainly be destroyed. He also said that the economic impact on the state from this thing will be like a second Katrina." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23173|23169|2010-04-30 07:00:44|Matt Malone|Re: Mobilty Ashore|In Ontario, bicycles with a motor (over 100 Watts I think) are licensed as mopeds. The electric bikes they sell at Canadian Tire are at the limit, whatever it is. 100 Watt is less than 1/7th of a hp. One should expect that some destinations might want to license motorized bicycles in a similar way, even if yours, or some others do not. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:48:38 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mobilty Ashore anything with a gas motor is required to ahve a registration. there is also the possibilty of using the pedals and actually cycling which was pointed out to me by a cycling shop employee. i did have to laugh at the appropriateness of it cause i am always trying to do anything but these days--but not so far in the past i used to cycle 20 km to work no problem. Dummy me. MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 4:13 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Mobilty Ashore A friend has ordered one of the tiny gas engines that the Chinese are making, which fit on any bike, and will propel a bike up any hill in New Westminster. He is ordering his from Burnaby BC. A USanian told me they are selling like hotcakes in Seattle ,and are everywhere there now. They are small enough to make a bike with one still legally a bike, and thus need no licensing, extra charges on ferries, etc. They cost $125 , making them disposables. Looks like a solution to cruiser mobility ashore. I may soon order one. They also cut funding to the oil industry, as they run on a sniff of gas. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Got a phone? Get Hotmail & Messenger for mobile! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724464 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23174|23169|2010-04-30 11:20:55|Mark Hamill|Re: Mobilty Ashore|Ok Ill be serious about this. I attended a talk by a world circumnavigating trimaran sailor and he said that having a 250 street legal dirt bike made a huge difference in the enjoyment of their trip and increased what they saw drmatically. I have investigated electric and gas motors for bikes. You can buy a complete kit or make your own. The motors operate with chain drive or wilth friction drive on the back tire. Avoid anything that mounts on the front wheel. There are also kits that you can make that fit into trailers. There are plans for an electic trailer mounted unit on the internet and he also has one version that has a small gas engine for a charger. These are two wheeled trailers and are probably not of any use on a boat. There are one wheel trailers one could build and mount a motor but in terms of stowage the bicycle mounted motor is probably the easiest to stow. Of these the friction units are probably the easiest to mount and require the fewst parts although theere is more wear on the tire. All units come in asian, american and other manufactures. I saw a recumbent here in Courtenay with a motor and it was really flying along.The motors used on some of the DIY units have been made from grass whippers and 1Plus HP 4 stoke and 2 stroke engines.. MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Malone" To: Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 4:00 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mobilty Ashore > > > In Ontario, bicycles with a motor (over 100 Watts I think) are licensed as > mopeds. The electric bikes they sell at Canadian Tire are at the limit, > whatever it is. 100 Watt is less than 1/7th of a hp. One should expect > that some destinations might want to license motorized bicycles in a > similar way, even if yours, or some others do not. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:48:38 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mobilty Ashore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anything with a gas motor is required to ahve a registration. there > is also the possibilty of using the pedals and actually cycling which was > pointed out to me by a cycling shop employee. i did have to laugh at the > appropriateness of it cause i am always trying to do anything but these > days--but not so far in the past i used to cycle 20 km to work no problem. > Dummy me. MarkH > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 4:13 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Mobilty Ashore > > > > A friend has ordered one of the tiny gas engines that the Chinese are > making, which fit on any bike, and will propel a bike up any hill in New > Westminster. He is ordering his from Burnaby BC. A USanian told me they > are selling like hotcakes in Seattle ,and are everywhere there now. They > are small enough to make a bike with one still legally a bike, and thus > need no licensing, extra charges on ferries, etc. They cost $125 , making > them disposables. > > Looks like a solution to cruiser mobility ashore. I may soon order one. > > They also cut funding to the oil industry, as they run on a sniff of gas. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Got a phone? Get Hotmail & Messenger for mobile! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724464 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23175|23175|2010-04-30 11:34:53|SHANE ROTHWELL|Mobility ashore|Mark, that may well be the way it is where you are, but in Canada we have Human Rights that date back, and are linked to Canada, directly, to the Magna Carta via the BNA Act of 1868. You are of course referring to chattal property and we have the bloody right to use any convanyance of our choice on the roads of this country. I wonder how long it will be before they come out with a law that says that upon the approach of ANY representative of government you MUST lay down and spread your legs? I wonder how many people outside of government will support that legislation. The "requirement" you mention is one dictated by a Nazi and has absolutely nothing to do with men. If however, you choose to represent yourself as a corporate entity with a social insureance number, (or in the states, social security number/card) they you have no rights whatsoever and you ARE bound by any bloody "requirement" they choose to come up with. In Canada we have the choice as to how we represent ourselves, in the states, as to hold american citizenship, you MUST accept the 'benefit' of social securty, you therefore, by definition MUST represent yourself as a corporate enttity. So Much for freedom in american. Good luck guys. The only restriction that I know of on these things to be "street legal" in Canada is that they be under 50cc. How many mopeds are there out there? Brent or anyone else, if you find any deals on them, please pass along the info. the 2 stroke ones go for about the $125 Brent mentined, the 4 stroke, best price I've fouund is about $350 plus plus plus Cheers, Shane . Re: Mobilty Ashore Posted by: "Mark Hamill" mhamill1@... sunbearone Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:48 pm (PDT) anything with a gas motor is required to ahve a registration. there is also the possibilty of using the pedals and actually cycling which was pointed out to me by a cycling shop employee. i did have to laugh at the appropriateness of it cause i am always trying to do anything but these days--but not so far in the past i used to cycle 20 km to work no problem. Dummy me. MarkH -----| 23176|23175|2010-04-30 12:03:27|Mark Hamill|Re: Mobility ashore|A quick call to the RCMP reveals (they have a handout you can pick up). There are two classes a motor assisted bike with power to 500 watts with which you can use a bike helmet and no license required and the next level is a gas engine to max 50cc and 1500 watts electric that requires registration through your insurance provider, a license, and a motocycle helmet. ICBC has the info on htem at their offices.. Regarding insurance--The courtenay fish and game associaation i think sponsored by the BC fish and wildlife association has insurance included in its membershiop for atvs, boats to 25?? feet and all outdoor activities.etc. The facts, nothing but the facts is all i have time for. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23177|23175|2010-04-30 12:13:33|Mark Hamill|Re: Mobility ashore|I meant 50cc max [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23178|23175|2010-04-30 12:31:07|theboilerflue|Re: Mobility ashore|I ran into a friend I went to high school with five or six years ago, he had brought one of those little bike gas engines back with him from a trip to china, he said that one can get slightly larger than 50cc motors and just take the tag off and the cops don't know the difference as there's hardly any difference in size between the 70cc versions or what ever. While we were in school he was experimenting with attaching a chain saw motor to a bike, it worked pretty well, he just took the cranks off and attached another chain ring to the left side and ran a chain up to the motor mounted behind the seat, cops didn't like it very much, I believe he had a run in with them and they seized it for being unsafe or something, but he could really get that thing going, like upwards to 70 km/h. That motorised recumbent bicycle was built by Ross Hunt he loves doing stuff like that he designed and had the gear box specially machined for it, he lives in Cumberland on Royston road, nice guy. From what I understand of the law regarding motorised bikes is that anything under 50cc doesn't need insurance or registration, and Shane's correct in saying that as soon as you agree to registering it under the motor vehicular act you are agreeing to abide by the rules in that act. Unfortunately here in Canada unless you actually state otherwise your silence is considered acceptance of the laws imposed, so the cops just assume you agree to follow all the rules in all these acts the governments made up. Shane your comments remind me of the world freemans society, an interesting argument which is technically correct and lawful but as has been seen so far (and as has always been) the cops will just do what ever they want, if they want to fine you or take your bike away there really is no stopping them, that's why they carry guns. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > A quick call to the RCMP reveals (they have a handout you can pick up). There are two classes a motor assisted bike with power to 500 watts with which you can use a bike helmet and no license required and the next level is a gas engine to max 50cc and 1500 watts electric that requires registration through your insurance provider, a license, and a motocycle helmet. ICBC has the info on htem at their offices.. Regarding insurance--The courtenay fish and game associaation i think sponsored by the BC fish and wildlife association has insurance included in its membershiop for atvs, boats to 25?? feet and all outdoor activities.etc. The facts, nothing but the facts is all i have time for. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23179|23175|2010-04-30 18:36:18|Paul Wilson|Mobility and Gulf Oil?|There is more than a little conflict in the last two threads... Offshore drilling is criticized for its environmental impact yet everyone seems to want a powered moped or motorbike on their yacht. If you think you can charge up your electric moped using the solar panels on your yacht, good luck. You will probably charge it up on shore. Depending on where you live, the electricity may come from the coal fired power plant, the tar sands or a nuclear power plant. Obama just gave the green light to new offshore drilling a few weeks ago. He will now probably try to revoke it. Should it be allowed in new areas? I am not sure. Aren't all areas environmentally sensitive? Most people have no idea how many offshore platforms and support vessels there are in the Gulf of Mexico. It is truly amazing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gulf_Coast_Platforms.jpg It is a case of out of site, out of mind until something like this or the Exxon Valdez happens and then everyone protests that they are there. Without them, the US would totally shut down. When oil goes back up to $140 dollars a barrel and the price at the pump doubles, the general public will want more rigs offshore to get cheap oil and criticize the government for having too many restrictions on where you can drill. They won't care about the environment unless the rig happens to be in their own backyard. Why does everything have to be powered these days? From gutless battery powered tools that go dead in a few minutes to useless electric appliances like motorized can openers, many things are totally unnecessary. We are convinced that we simply must have them by advertising agencies. I used to have a fold-up bike on the boat and gave it away. It took up room and was a pain in the ass. Every time I wanted to use it, it would need repairs due to corrosion. I found I normally could walk, hitch hike, or take public transport everywhere I needed. If you are in a country where it is too expensive for the local population to own cars, taxis are generally cheap and the buses run often. The next time I arrive in a country and feel I really need a bike, I will buy a cheap Chinese or used one for $100 and give it away to someone when I am ready to leave. If you really care about the environment, stick to pedal power or the foots-mobile. If everyone does it when we can, we will all be healthier, happier and richer. Rant over :). Cheers, Paul| 23180|23175|2010-04-30 21:01:33|James Pronk|Re: Mobility and Gulf Oil?|Very well said Paul, thank you. Every time I see one of those damn little Chines gas engines on a bike it is often ridden by some one that should be peddling the bike not just sitting there. .James --- On Fri, 4/30/10, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: [origamiboats] Mobility and Gulf Oil? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, April 30, 2010, 6:36 PM   There is more than a little conflict in the last two threads... Offshore drilling is criticized for its environmental impact yet everyone seems to want a powered moped or motorbike on their yacht. If you think you can charge up your electric moped using the solar panels on your yacht, good luck. You will probably charge it up on shore. Depending on where you live, the electricity may come from the coal fired power plant, the tar sands or a nuclear power plant. Obama just gave the green light to new offshore drilling a few weeks ago. He will now probably try to revoke it. Should it be allowed in new areas? I am not sure. Aren't all areas environmentally sensitive? Most people have no idea how many offshore platforms and support vessels there are in the Gulf of Mexico. It is truly amazing. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ File:Gulf_ Coast_Platforms. jpg It is a case of out of site, out of mind until something like this or the Exxon Valdez happens and then everyone protests that they are there. Without them, the US would totally shut down. When oil goes back up to $140 dollars a barrel and the price at the pump doubles, the general public will want more rigs offshore to get cheap oil and criticize the government for having too many restrictions on where you can drill. They won't care about the environment unless the rig happens to be in their own backyard. Why does everything have to be powered these days? From gutless battery powered tools that go dead in a few minutes to useless electric appliances like motorized can openers, many things are totally unnecessary. We are convinced that we simply must have them by advertising agencies. I used to have a fold-up bike on the boat and gave it away. It took up room and was a pain in the ass. Every time I wanted to use it, it would need repairs due to corrosion. I found I normally could walk, hitch hike, or take public transport everywhere I needed. If you are in a country where it is too expensive for the local population to own cars, taxis are generally cheap and the buses run often. The next time I arrive in a country and feel I really need a bike, I will buy a cheap Chinese or used one for $100 and give it away to someone when I am ready to leave. If you really care about the environment, stick to pedal power or the foots-mobile. If everyone does it when we can, we will all be healthier, happier and richer. Rant over :). Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23181|23175|2010-04-30 21:31:34|Ben Okopnik|Re: Mobility and Gulf Oil?|On Sat, May 01, 2010 at 10:36:09AM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > There is more than a little conflict in the last two threads... [snip] > Rant over :). I don't usually do "me too" posts, but - really good, high-quality rant, Paul. :) Well said. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23182|23182|2010-05-01 11:42:44|SHANE ROTHWELL|Mobility Ashore|Hey Mark and Haydan, Mark, No jab intented. good work calling the MP's (However, there is no "Royal' related to them, nor is there anything Canadian, expept in the corporate sence.) This can be easily confirmed by a quick look at the american Securities and Exchange Commisssion in Washington DC. The Dominion of Canada, under the auspices of Pierre Elliot Tredeau (may he rot in hell!) was incorporated in 1969 (now why would ANY soverign nation incorprate in another juourisdiction other than to perpetrate a fraud????). Business address is the Canadian Embassy in Washington DC. THAT is what you deal with when you represent yourself with ID in this country. YOUR NAME spelt in full capitals (of course represented by that 9 digit number they call a 'social insurance number' that is nothing more than a corporate registry number. This is also the same entity that ties you in with tacit acceptance that Haydan mentioned (you did not say no, so legally, you just said yes.) Anyway, so, the "RCMP" as you call them, are a police force employed by, literally, Canada Inc. Same thing with ALL branches of the military. As all the cities are incorporated, their police forces are nothing but employees of a corporation. So what could that possibly make them other than a merinary? So a thug comes along, doesn't like the look of you, DEMANDS Re: Mobility ashore Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:31 am (PDT) I ran into a friend I went to high school with five or six years ago, he had brought one of those little bike gas engines back with him from a trip to china, he said that one can get slightly larger than 50cc motors and just take the tag off and the cops don't know the difference as there's hardly any difference in size between the 70cc versions or what ever. While we were in school he was experimenting with attaching a chain saw motor to a bike, it worked pretty well, he just took the cranks off and attached another chain ring to the left side and ran a chain up to the motor mounted behind the seat, cops didn't like it very much, I believe he had a run in with them and they seized it for being unsafe or something, but he could really get that thing going, like upwards to 70 km/h. That motorised recumbent bicycle was built by Ross Hunt he loves doing stuff like that he designed and had the gear box specially machined for it, he lives in Cumberland on Royston road, nice guy. From what I understand of the law regarding motorised bikes is that anything under 50cc doesn't need insurance or registration, and Shane's correct in saying that as soon as you agree to registering it under the motor vehicular act you are agreeing to abide by the rules in that act. Unfortunately here in Canada unless you actually state otherwise your silence is considered acceptance of the laws imposed, so the cops just assume you agree to follow all the rules in all these acts the governments made up. Shane your comments remind me of the world freemans society, an interesting argument which is technically correct and lawful but as has been seen so far (and as has always been) the cops will just do what ever they want, if they want to fine you or take your bike away there really is no stopping them, that's why they carry guns. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > A quick call to the RCMP reveals (they have a handout you can pick up). There are two classes a motor assisted bike with power to 500 watts with which you can use a bike helmet and no license required and the next level is a gas engine to max 50cc and 1500 watts electric that requires registration through your insurance provider, a license, and a motocycle helmet. ICBC has the info on htem at their offices.. Regarding insurance--The courtenay fish and game associaation i think sponsored by the BC fish and wildlife association has insurance included in its membershiop for atvs, boats to 25?? feet and all outdoor activities.etc. The facts, nothing but the facts is all i have time for. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23183|23182|2010-05-01 12:06:12|SHANE ROTHWELL|Mobility Ashore|Continued....hit the wrong key DEMANDS ID, pushes, intimidates (do you thinnk that they are not trained to "control" people.....? and then "assumes" via tacit acceptance that you agree to ALL acts of the corporation. Read the Magna Carta. It has absolutely no relavance to those who live south of the 49th paralelle, but out country was founded on it, and we are being screwed out of our birthright by a bunch of thugs. The act (or should I say the fact of) incorporation is the method through which they decieve us on all fronts. BUT, they (the gov't) MUST obey the law, so what you need to do is demand, politely of course, that you work within the jourisdictin of the Dominon of Canada, not Canada Inc. If you work with Canada Inc. then THEY have EVERY RIGHT to DEMAND you lay down and spread your legs, as, what rights does a corporation have? However, if you quietly and politely demand the jourisdction of the Dominion of Canada, you have more power than ANY cop, polititian, political office, or any form of government. An education in what bloody should be the basics goes a long way. Gee I wonder why this is not common knowledge. Once shown, it is the easiest thing in the world to confirm (and christ does it open the mind!) Re the 70cc engines. look on ebay, look up BoyGoFast who sell these engines and they explain that the 70 & 80cc engines are a minsomer, they are built in 66 or 49cc. the differance is measurement. in North america we measure cylindrical volume, in differant places they include the combusion area in the cylinder head. I want one (or 2) of these things as we are 27 km out of the nearest town with decent shopping etc and it's either the one tonne dump truck - not a commumer vehicle, or the little sedan (the wife's) so this is a cheap option. and Haydan, your right, By registration under the motor vehicle act you are legally deeding (giving) your chattal property to "THE AUTHORITY" (same goes for real property.....how nice it is dealing with corporate canada eh?, bend over!) Re the MP hand outs. Corporate literature dictating exactly how they want you to perform IF REPEAT IF you choose to agree to their coroprate dogma. And one little bit more. As we have 'the corportation of the city of Wherever' who dictate what you are "allowed" and what you are not "allowed"....what is a Bylaw? Other than an 'internal corporate directive'? Anyone who is interested in more please feel free to contact me directly Private, non-commercial activity and private communication with no intent to profit. For intended recipient only. © copyright 2010 Shane Rothwell. All Rights Reserved. Cheers, Shane Re: Mobility ashore Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@...   theboilerflue Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:31 am (PDT) I ran into a friend I went to high school with five or six years ago, he had brought one of those little bike gas engines back with him from a trip to china, he said that one can get slightly larger than 50cc motors and just take the tag off and the cops don't know the difference as there's hardly any difference in size between the 70cc versions or what ever. While we were in school he was experimenting with attaching a chain saw motor to a bike, it worked pretty well, he just took the cranks off and attached another chain ring to the left side and ran a chain up to the motor mounted behind the seat, cops didn't like it very much, I believe he had a run in with them and they seized it for being unsafe or something, but he could really get that thing going, like upwards to 70 km/h. That motorised recumbent bicycle was built by Ross Hunt he loves doing stuff like that he designed and had the gear box specially machined for it, he lives in Cumberland on Royston road, nice guy. From what I understand of the law regarding motorised bikes is that anything under 50cc doesn't need insurance or registration, and Shane's correct in saying that as soon as you agree to registering it under the motor vehicular act you are agreeing to abide by the rules in that act. Unfortunately here in Canada unless you actually state otherwise your silence is considered acceptance of the laws imposed, so the cops just assume you agree to follow all the rules in all these acts the governments made up. Shane your comments remind me of the world freemans society, an interesting argument which is technically correct and lawful but as has been seen so far (and as has always been) the cops will just do what ever they want, if they want to fine you or take your bike away there really is no stopping them, that's why they carry guns. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > A quick call to the RCMP reveals (they have a handout you can pick up). There are two classes a motor assisted bike with power to 500 watts with which you can use a bike helmet and no license required and the next level is a gas engine to max 50cc and 1500 watts electric that requires registration through your insurance provider, a license, and a motocycle helmet. ICBC has the info on htem at their offices.. Regarding insurance--The courtenay fish and game associaation i think sponsored by the BC fish and wildlife association has insurance included in its membershiop for atvs, boats to 25?? feet and all outdoor activities.etc. The facts, nothing but the facts is all i have time for. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23184|23169|2010-05-01 14:31:56|brentswain38|Re: Mobilty Ashore|In BC anythign under 50CC's doesn't require registration or license. It's legally, still abike. One could use it as a bike, only bolting the motor on for longer, all day trips. That's probably what I'll do. Nice to stil have ht epedals when the engine conks out. Better than a Honda and much lighter and more compact, expecialy if you start with a folding bike. The average car in BC costs $650 a month. Maybe this wll let some get rid of their cars altogether, a big help with the building and cruising kitty, as well as a big help to the environemt. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > anything with a gas motor is required to ahve a registration. there is also the possibilty of using the pedals and actually cycling which was pointed out to me by a cycling shop employee. i did have to laugh at the appropriateness of it cause i am always trying to do anything but these days--but not so far in the past i used to cycle 20 km to work no problem. Dummy me. MarkH > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 4:13 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Mobilty Ashore > > > > A friend has ordered one of the tiny gas engines that the Chinese are making, which fit on any bike, and will propel a bike up any hill in New Westminster. He is ordering his from Burnaby BC. A USanian told me they are selling like hotcakes in Seattle ,and are everywhere there now. They are small enough to make a bike with one still legally a bike, and thus need no licensing, extra charges on ferries, etc. They cost $125 , making them disposables. > Looks like a solution to cruiser mobility ashore. I may soon order one. > They also cut funding to the oil industry, as they run on a sniff of gas. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23185|21460|2010-05-01 14:36:34|brentswain38|Re: Modeling of BS36|Did that angle of vanishing stability take into account the over 6,000 lbs of buoyancy in the trunk cabin , the over 3,000 lbs of buoyancy in the wheelhouse, and the buoyancy of a sealed mast? That could take it closer to 180 degrees. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Displacement / Length ratio = 290 (moderate cruiser) > > Ballast ratio = 33% (lightly ballasted). > Number < 30 is for inshore_fair_weather use only) > > Max Speed (for displacement hull) = 7.34 kn > Reasonable power input is about 2-3Hp per ton of displacement > > Capsize risk = 1.57 > Very good. Must be < 1.7 for ocean cruiser, not so many modern sailboats meet this criteria) > > Comfort factor = 37 > Very good. 30-40 is recommended for cruising boats 25min, 50max) > > Roll period sec = 4.16 > Very good. Stiff < Optimal is 4 - 8 sec < Tender) > > Roll Acceleration (comfort/discomfort factor for crew) = 0.046 > Must be < 0.06 for cruising boat. Not so many boats meet this criteria) > > Angle of Vanishing Stability = 164 deg. > Very good. > It would be interesting to see stability curve for BS36. > > These are estimate numbers based on Ted Brewer and John Holtrop formulas. I used guesstimates for waterline beam, hull draft without keel, length of waterline. > > Some online calculators are here: http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__avs.htm > | 23186|21460|2010-05-01 15:49:30|wild_explorer|Re: Modeling of BS36|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Did that angle of vanishing stability take into account the over 6,000 lbs of buoyancy in the trunk cabin , the over 3,000 lbs of buoyancy in the wheelhouse, and the buoyancy of a sealed mast? That could take it closer to 180 degrees. > This was just a prediction of stability. I believe, it is for average sailing yacht or may be just for the hull. To properly calculate prediction of stability , it is need to know draft of the hull without keel. I do not have such information. I had to use guesstimate - which is not good, because it can give incorrect prediction - up to 30 degrees higher than in reality. Same problem with others numbers - for proper calculation it is need to know Beam on waterline and Length on waterline (I used guesstimates too). I am still on learning curve, so I cannot comment effect of mentioned improvements on stability. But common sense tells me, it should improve self righting. So far, BS_36 looks like a good_old_days cruiser. It seems that designers lowered standards for new/modern ones. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: .....skipped.... > > Capsize risk = 1.57 > > Very good. Must be < 1.7 for ocean cruiser, not so many modern sailboats meet this criteria) > > .....skipped..... > > Roll period sec = 4.16 > > Very good. Stiff < Optimal is 4 - 8 sec < Tender) ......skipped..... > > Roll Acceleration (comfort/discomfort factor for crew) = 0.046 > > Must be < 0.06 for cruising boat. Not so many boats meet this criteria) > > > > Angle of Vanishing Stability = 164 deg. > > Very good. > > It would be interesting to see stability curve for BS36. | 23187|23169|2010-05-01 19:52:44|Keith Green|Re: Mobilty Ashore|I have one of those Chiwanese motors here. I had one on a bike a while back and they're a bit of a hoot. Kinda loud, smelly, pollute a lot, a few hot bits too close to your legs to wear shorts. You tend get the smell all in your hair and clothes as well. A normal kickstand will not hold the bike up. The frame needs to be large enough to accomodate the motor; most mountain bike frames these days have sloping top-tubes which reduce the size of the opening in the frame. You'll probably need the make some type of custom motor mount (not hard). Pedalling one of these isn't practical. There is a lot of drag from the motor drivetrain ( 2 sprockets, idler wheel, heavy chain, gearbox) so it's like riding against a breeze all the time. Lot's of vibration. After 20 minutes my feet were going numb. The left handlebar ends up having two levers on it (maybe they have a new combo brake/clutch lever these days). There is a breaking period during which you'll have higher-than normal gas and oil consumption, lower power and more noise. The motor kit adds about 25-30 lbs to the weight of the bike and most of it up high where it changes the balance quite a bit. On the good side; they're cheap, go like stink and climb steep hills like they're not there. I would look around for a folder made for marine use (titanium frame and stainless or aluminum parts). Keith brentswain38 wrote: > In BC anythign under 50CC's doesn't require registration or license. It's legally, still abike. > One could use it as a bike, only bolting the motor on for longer, all day trips. That's probably what I'll do. > Nice to stil have ht epedals when the engine conks out. > Better than a Honda and much lighter and more compact, expecialy if you start with a folding bike. > The average car in BC costs $650 a month. Maybe this wll let some get rid of their cars altogether, a big help with the building and cruising kitty, as well as a big help to the environemt. . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > >> anything with a gas motor is required to ahve a registration. there is also the possibilty of using the pedals and actually cycling which was pointed out to me by a cycling shop employee. i did have to laugh at the appropriateness of it cause i am always trying to do anything but these days--but not so far in the past i used to cycle 20 km to work no problem. Dummy me. MarkH >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: brentswain38 >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 4:13 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Mobilty Ashore >> >> >> >> A friend has ordered one of the tiny gas engines that the Chinese are making, which fit on any bike, and will propel a bike up any hill in New Westminster. He is ordering his from Burnaby BC. A USanian told me they are selling like hotcakes in Seattle ,and are everywhere there now. They are small enough to make a bike with one still legally a bike, and thus need no licensing, extra charges on ferries, etc. They cost $125 , making them disposables. >> Looks like a solution to cruiser mobility ashore. I may soon order one. >> They also cut funding to the oil industry, as they run on a sniff of gas. >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 23188|21460|2010-05-02 00:12:37|maxcamirand|Re: Modeling of BS36|wild_explorer: How can you be analyzing the stability of a hull for which you apparently don't have the plans? Regards, -Maxime Camirand --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Did that angle of vanishing stability take into account the over 6,000 lbs of buoyancy in the trunk cabin , the over 3,000 lbs of buoyancy in the wheelhouse, and the buoyancy of a sealed mast? That could take it closer to 180 degrees. > > > > This was just a prediction of stability. I believe, it is for average sailing yacht or may be just for the hull. To properly calculate prediction of stability , it is need to know draft of the hull without keel. I do not have such information. I had to use guesstimate - which is not good, because it can give incorrect prediction - up to 30 degrees higher than in reality. Same problem with others numbers - for proper calculation it is need to know Beam on waterline and Length on waterline (I used guesstimates too). > > I am still on learning curve, so I cannot comment effect of mentioned improvements on stability. But common sense tells me, it should improve self righting. > > So far, BS_36 looks like a good_old_days cruiser. It seems that designers lowered standards for new/modern ones. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > .....skipped.... > > > Capsize risk = 1.57 > > > Very good. Must be < 1.7 for ocean cruiser, not so many modern sailboats meet this criteria) > > > > .....skipped..... > > > Roll period sec = 4.16 > > > Very good. Stiff < Optimal is 4 - 8 sec < Tender) > ......skipped..... > > > Roll Acceleration (comfort/discomfort factor for crew) = 0.046 > > > Must be < 0.06 for cruising boat. Not so many boats meet this criteria) > > > > > > Angle of Vanishing Stability = 164 deg. > > > Very good. > > > It would be interesting to see stability curve for BS36. > | 23189|23182|2010-05-02 12:03:32|SHANE ROTHWELL|Mobility Ashore|Bye the way, in my last post I mentioned that if anyone wanted further info to please contact me directly. My mistake not to mention, not for me to expound further, but to put you into contact with people who know much much more that I do and who can provive a thourough education.| 23190|21460|2010-05-02 12:12:17|SHANE ROTHWELL|Modeling of BS36|Hey Max, You don't actually think that anything even closely related to anything other than bullshit is going to come out of this guy do you? What happened to "sail away in a month" He tries to come on like he knows what's happening, and I'd bet dollars to doghnuts that he considers himself an "expert" on it now..., thankfully people like Brent cut him off at the knees with simple factual statements of what is really happening. The guy is a fraud. (gawd I wish he'd sue me so I could get up in front of a croud and PROVE it.....with his own words) How do we get rid of this moron? Shane Re: Modeling of BS36 Posted by: "maxcamirand" maxcamirand@... maxcamirand Sat May 1, 2010 9:12 pm (PDT) wild_explorer: How can you be analyzing the stability of a hull for which you apparently don't have the plans? Regards, -Maxime Camirand --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Did that angle of vanishing stability take into account the over 6,000 lbs of buoyancy in the trunk cabin , the over 3,000 lbs of buoyancy in the wheelhouse, and the buoyancy of a sealed mast? That could take it closer to 180 degrees. > > > > This was just a prediction of stability. I believe, it is for average sailing yacht or may be just for the hull. To properly calculate prediction of stability , it is need to know draft of the hull without keel. I do not have such information. I had to use guesstimate - which is not good, because it can give incorrect prediction - up to 30 degrees higher than in reality. Same problem with others numbers - for proper calculation it is need to know Beam on waterline and Length on waterline (I used guesstimates too). > > I am still on learning curve, so I cannot comment effect of mentioned improvements on stability. But common sense tells me, it should improve self righting. > > So far, BS_36 looks like a good_old_days cruiser. It seems that designers lowered standards for new/modern ones. > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > .....skipped. ... > > > Capsize risk = 1.57 > > > Very good. Must be < 1.7 for ocean cruiser, not so many modern sailboats meet this criteria) > > > > .....skipped. .... > > > Roll period sec = 4.16 > > > Very good. Stiff < Optimal is 4 - 8 sec < Tender) > ......skipped. .... > > > Roll Acceleration (comfort/discomfort factor for crew) = 0.046 > > > Must be < 0.06 for cruising boat. Not so many boats meet this criteria) > > > > > > Angle of Vanishing Stability = 164 deg. > > > Very good. > > > It would be interesting to see stability curve for BS36. > | 23191|21460|2010-05-02 15:28:34|brentswain38|Re: Modeling of BS36|Most of these calculations don't take into consideration the ffect on ultimate stability of the huge buoyancy of the trunk cabin and wheelhouse, which has them grossly underating the ultimate stability angle of boats which don't have flush decks, but have the bouyancy of cabins and wheelhouses, adding to their righting moment. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Did that angle of vanishing stability take into account the over 6,000 lbs of buoyancy in the trunk cabin , the over 3,000 lbs of buoyancy in the wheelhouse, and the buoyancy of a sealed mast? That could take it closer to 180 degrees. > > > > This was just a prediction of stability. I believe, it is for average sailing yacht or may be just for the hull. To properly calculate prediction of stability , it is need to know draft of the hull without keel. I do not have such information. I had to use guesstimate - which is not good, because it can give incorrect prediction - up to 30 degrees higher than in reality. Same problem with others numbers - for proper calculation it is need to know Beam on waterline and Length on waterline (I used guesstimates too). > > I am still on learning curve, so I cannot comment effect of mentioned improvements on stability. But common sense tells me, it should improve self righting. > > So far, BS_36 looks like a good_old_days cruiser. It seems that designers lowered standards for new/modern ones. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > .....skipped.... > > > Capsize risk = 1.57 > > > Very good. Must be < 1.7 for ocean cruiser, not so many modern sailboats meet this criteria) > > > > .....skipped..... > > > Roll period sec = 4.16 > > > Very good. Stiff < Optimal is 4 - 8 sec < Tender) > ......skipped..... > > > Roll Acceleration (comfort/discomfort factor for crew) = 0.046 > > > Must be < 0.06 for cruising boat. Not so many boats meet this criteria) > > > > > > Angle of Vanishing Stability = 164 deg. > > > Very good. > > > It would be interesting to see stability curve for BS36. > | 23192|21460|2010-05-02 17:25:02|Carl Anderson|Re: Modeling of BS36|I just did a quick calculation and determined that I have a net bouyancy of 2.4 pounds per foot of mast length! Wonder what that gives to righting moment when heeled at 90+ degrees??? Carl sv-mom.com brentswain38 wrote: > > Most of these calculations don't take into consideration the ffect on > ultimate stability of the huge buoyancy of the trunk cabin and > wheelhouse, which has them grossly underating the ultimate stability > angle of boats which don't have flush decks, but have the bouyancy of > cabins and wheelhouses, adding to their righting moment. . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "wild_explorer" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > Did that angle of vanishing stability take into account the over > 6,000 lbs of buoyancy in the trunk cabin , the over 3,000 lbs of > buoyancy in the wheelhouse, and the buoyancy of a sealed mast? That > could take it closer to 180 degrees. > > > > > > > This was just a prediction of stability. I believe, it is for > average sailing yacht or may be just for the hull. To properly > calculate prediction of stability , it is need to know draft of the > hull without keel. I do not have such information. I had to use > guesstimate - which is not good, because it can give incorrect > prediction - up to 30 degrees higher than in reality. Same problem > with others numbers - for proper calculation it is need to know Beam > on waterline and Length on waterline (I used guesstimates too). > > > > I am still on learning curve, so I cannot comment effect of > mentioned improvements on stability. But common sense tells me, it > should improve self righting. > > > > So far, BS_36 looks like a good_old_days cruiser. It seems that > designers lowered standards for new/modern ones. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "wild_explorer" > wrote: > > .....skipped.... > > > > Capsize risk = 1.57 > > > > Very good. Must be < 1.7 for ocean cruiser, not so many modern > sailboats meet this criteria) > > > > > > .....skipped..... > > > > Roll period sec = 4.16 > > > > Very good. Stiff < Optimal is 4 - 8 sec < Tender) > > ......skipped..... > > > > Roll Acceleration (comfort/discomfort factor for crew) = 0.046 > > > > Must be < 0.06 for cruising boat. Not so many boats meet this > criteria) > > > > > > > > Angle of Vanishing Stability = 164 deg. > > > > Very good. > > > > It would be interesting to see stability curve for BS36. > > > > | 23193|23193|2010-05-02 21:47:54|vjmtymo|Great VW diesel engine for sale|Okay guys, stow the political rants for a second and listen up: I'm selling a VW 1.6 ME series diesel engine WITH the original Pathfinder bellhousing and deep oilpan and Bowman exchanger plus a whole bunch of stuff that goes with it. I mostly rebuilt the shortblock so the holes are honed out, new bearings, seals, rings, gaskets, water pump, and more. This is with the hydraulic lifters and the head is in great shape, one of the few with NO CRACKS between ports. The block was dipped and cleaned, is repainted with engine enamel, and honed professionally. It has ZERO hours since work done. I have the timing equipment to go with it, torque wrenches, manual, engine stand, spare starter, fuel lines, just to name a few items. It is hard to find this particular VW block now as so many people are scooping them up for veggie oil conversions, just try to find one on Ebay. Parts are abundant and affordable. For more info, e-mail me at vjmtymo@.... Serious inquiries only and no parting out. Victor| 23194|22979|2010-05-02 23:16:14|martin demers|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Brent, after a second look this weekend, the bowman heat exchanger is aluminium but the flange bolted to the exchanger is steel. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:29:47 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust If you have to weld on any extension , you'd want to put gussets on to reduce the chance of fatigue at the joint.Metal fatigue at this point on aluminium is a big risk . You would want flex pipe. If you put silicone high temperature hose over the flex pipe it would cover any leaks from metal fatigue on the flex while the metal flex would take the direct heat. I've been meaning to experiment with this combination . How the silicone stands up depends on how effective the water cooled manifold cooling is. On my engine, the exhaust outlet on the transom was on the opposite side from the engine manifold so I had to run the exhaust across the top of the flywheel. I welded a piece of ss tab on the exhaust pipe, so I could bolt it onto one of the flywheel bolts. This eliminates the chance of metal fatigue from vibration on the manifold . I've had a piece of silicone hose clamped to the pipe for years, and it shows no sign of burning. I guess it is far enough from the head to be cool enough. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent, > VW manifold is made of aluminium, what kind of connector should I use to connect it to the exhaust pipe? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:45:10 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For most diesels, a watercooled manifold is extremely easy to build, but VW has made it difficult.. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Martin....I had forgotten who made them. Before I even started > > > my boat, I was introduced to a fellow who owned a fiberglass boat with > > > a VW engine installed - Pathfinder complete. Nice installation and > > > almost silent when running. That sold me on VW. > > > Truth be known, if I were to "stumble" on a Bowman water-cooled > > > manifold for my VW, I'd give it some serious thought. It would get rid > > > of most engine bay heat. > > > Gord > > > > > > On 25-Apr-10, at 6:26 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Gord, > > > > Pathfinder uses Bowman water exhaust heat exchanger unit. > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: gschnell@ > > > > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:51:04 -0700 > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > If I understand, you must have a Pathfinder water-cooled exhaust > > > > > > > > manifold or equivalent. > > > > > > > > If so, use it and cool it with your skeg coolant. That way, you will > > > > > > > > eliminate a huge amount of engine bay heat from the manifold. I would > > > > > > > > run the engine coolant, from the skeg thru the engine and then the > > > > > > > > "water exhaust" exchanger. If that puts too much heat load on the skeg > > > > > > > > coolant, then consider deleting or partially bypassing the exhaust > > > > > > > > heat exchanger. That way, you will get rid of some exhaust heat. > > > > > > > > Who manufactured your water exhaust exchanger system?? > > > > > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Gord, > > > > > > > >> Inside the water exhaust there is a heat exchanger that cools the > > > > > > > >> engine coolant with the sea water.If I am not using the sea water > > > > > > > >> but the skeg coolant instead to cool my engine, do I keep the heat > > > > > > > >> exchanger or can I remove it and let the engine coolant run freely > > > > > > > >> inside the water exhaust? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Martin. > > > > > > > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> From: gschnell@ > > > > > > > >> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:39:29 -0700 > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Martin > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I'm not clear what you are asking me. Can you expand on the > > > >> question a > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> bit? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Gord > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> On 23-Apr-10, at 9:55 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Gord, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> do I keep the heat exchanger inside the water exhaust? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Martin. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> From: gschnell@ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:17:46 -0700 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> It will reduce the heat buildup in your engine bay. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Gord > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> On 22-Apr-10, at 6:09 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> Brent, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> I just bought a VW pathfinder engine and kit last week. Should I > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> keep the water cool exhaust with heat exchanger even if I go for > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> skeg cooling? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> Martin. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> From: brentswain38@ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:36:17 +0000 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> For a keel cooled engine, a water cooled exhaust manifold is > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> easy to weld up, and keeps the engine room heat down, but it's by > > > >>>> no > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> means mandatory. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> With the keel cooling (or air for you VW folks) and dry exhaust > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> there's really no need to marinize the engine except for fitting a > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> transmission that works for a boat > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> detail, and he had done nothing whatsoever to "marinize" it; it > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> just > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> worked. The guy had been sailing for years - Mauritius, trans- > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> Atlantic, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> Caribbean - and was headed for Australia when he took off. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>>> -- > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> ! Groups Links > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Les vid�os qui font jaser! R�solution HD aussi offerte! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> ! Groups Links > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone > > > > > > > >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@ > > > > > > > >> ! Groups Links > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Messenger sur votre t�l�phone = MI sur la route > > > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724474 > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@ > > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724471 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23195|21460|2010-05-03 14:29:51|brentswain38|Re: Modeling of BS36|Looks like 2956 foot pounds of righting moment at 90 degrees, roughly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I just did a quick calculation and determined that I have a net bouyancy > of 2.4 pounds per foot of mast length! > Wonder what that gives to righting moment when heeled at 90+ degrees??? > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Most of these calculations don't take into consideration the ffect on > > ultimate stability of the huge buoyancy of the trunk cabin and > > wheelhouse, which has them grossly underating the ultimate stability > > angle of boats which don't have flush decks, but have the bouyancy of > > cabins and wheelhouses, adding to their righting moment. . > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "wild_explorer" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Did that angle of vanishing stability take into account the over > > 6,000 lbs of buoyancy in the trunk cabin , the over 3,000 lbs of > > buoyancy in the wheelhouse, and the buoyancy of a sealed mast? That > > could take it closer to 180 degrees. > > > > > > > > > > This was just a prediction of stability. I believe, it is for > > average sailing yacht or may be just for the hull. To properly > > calculate prediction of stability , it is need to know draft of the > > hull without keel. I do not have such information. I had to use > > guesstimate - which is not good, because it can give incorrect > > prediction - up to 30 degrees higher than in reality. Same problem > > with others numbers - for proper calculation it is need to know Beam > > on waterline and Length on waterline (I used guesstimates too). > > > > > > I am still on learning curve, so I cannot comment effect of > > mentioned improvements on stability. But common sense tells me, it > > should improve self righting. > > > > > > So far, BS_36 looks like a good_old_days cruiser. It seems that > > designers lowered standards for new/modern ones. > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "wild_explorer" > > wrote: > > > .....skipped.... > > > > > Capsize risk = 1.57 > > > > > Very good. Must be < 1.7 for ocean cruiser, not so many modern > > sailboats meet this criteria) > > > > > > > > .....skipped..... > > > > > Roll period sec = 4.16 > > > > > Very good. Stiff < Optimal is 4 - 8 sec < Tender) > > > ......skipped..... > > > > > Roll Acceleration (comfort/discomfort factor for crew) = 0.046 > > > > > Must be < 0.06 for cruising boat. Not so many boats meet this > > criteria) > > > > > > > > > > Angle of Vanishing Stability = 164 deg. > > > > > Very good. > > > > > It would be interesting to see stability curve for BS36. > > > > > > > > | 23196|23182|2010-05-03 14:39:00|brentswain38|Re: Mobility Ashore|And what is the RCMP motto? Maintain the (political) right, coined at a time right and left, politicaly, meant the same as it does today. In english Canada, it is written in french only, on their cars. Do they write it in english only in Quebec? Wonder why. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hey Mark and Haydan, > > Mark, No jab intented. good work calling the MP's (However, there is no "Royal' related to them, nor is there anything Canadian, expept in the corporate sence.) > > This can be easily confirmed by a quick look at the american Securities and Exchange Commisssion in Washington DC. The Dominion of Canada, under the auspices of Pierre Elliot Tredeau (may he rot in hell!) was incorporated in 1969 (now why would ANY soverign nation incorprate in another juourisdiction other than to perpetrate a fraud????). Business address is the Canadian Embassy in Washington DC. > > THAT is what you deal with when you represent yourself with ID in this country. YOUR NAME spelt in full capitals (of course represented by that 9 digit number they call a 'social insurance number' that is nothing more than a corporate registry number. This is also the same entity that ties you in with tacit acceptance that Haydan mentioned (you did not say no, so legally, you just said yes.) > > Anyway, so, the "RCMP" as you call them, are a police force employed by, literally, Canada Inc. Same thing with ALL branches of the military. As all the cities are incorporated, their police forces are nothing but employees of a corporation. So what could that possibly make them other than a merinary? > > So a thug comes along, doesn't like the look of you, DEMANDS > > > > > > > Re: Mobility ashore > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue > Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:31 am (PDT) > > > I ran into a friend I went to high school with five or six years ago, he had brought one of those little bike gas engines back with him from a trip to china, he said that one can get slightly larger than 50cc motors and just take the tag off and the cops don't know the difference as there's hardly any difference in size between the 70cc versions or what ever. While we were in school he was experimenting with attaching a chain saw motor to a bike, it worked pretty well, he just took the cranks off and attached another chain ring to the left side and ran a chain up to the motor mounted behind the seat, cops didn't like it very much, I believe he had a run in with them and they seized it for being unsafe or something, but he could really get that thing going, like upwards to 70 km/h. > That motorised recumbent bicycle was built by Ross Hunt he loves doing stuff like that he designed and had the gear box specially machined for it, he lives in Cumberland on Royston road, nice guy. > From what I understand of the law regarding motorised bikes is that anything under 50cc doesn't need insurance or registration, and Shane's correct in saying that as soon as you agree to registering it under the motor vehicular act you are agreeing to abide by the rules in that act. Unfortunately here in Canada unless you actually state otherwise your silence is considered acceptance of the laws imposed, so the cops just assume you agree to follow all the rules in all these acts the governments made up. Shane your comments remind me of the world freemans society, an interesting argument which is technically correct and lawful but as has been seen so far (and as has always been) the cops will just do what ever they want, if they want to fine you or take your bike away there really is no stopping them, that's why they carry guns. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > > > A quick call to the RCMP reveals (they have a handout you can pick up). There are two classes a motor assisted bike with power to 500 watts with which you can use a bike helmet and no license required and the next level is a gas engine to max 50cc and 1500 watts electric that requires registration through your insurance provider, a license, and a motocycle helmet. ICBC has the info on htem at their offices.. Regarding insurance--The courtenay fish and game associaation i think sponsored by the BC fish and wildlife association has insurance included in its membershiop for atvs, boats to 25?? feet and all outdoor activities.etc. The facts, nothing but the facts is all i have time for. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 23197|23182|2010-05-03 14:42:05|brentswain38|Re: Mobility Ashore|I hear some are protesting government bureaucracy by wiping their asses on all paper they send to the government, for them to handle. I hear the movement( bad pun) is catching on. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Continued....hit the wrong key > > > DEMANDS ID, pushes, intimidates (do you thinnk that they are not trained to "control" people.....? and then "assumes" via tacit acceptance that you agree to ALL acts of the corporation. > > Read the Magna Carta. It has absolutely no relavance to those who live south of the 49th paralelle, but out country was founded on it, and we are being screwed out of our birthright by a bunch of thugs. > > The act (or should I say the fact of) incorporation is the method through which they decieve us on all fronts. BUT, they (the gov't) MUST obey the law, so what you need to do is demand, politely of course, that you work within the jourisdictin of the Dominon of Canada, not Canada Inc. If you work with Canada Inc. then THEY have EVERY RIGHT to DEMAND you lay down and spread your legs, as, what rights does a corporation have? However, if you quietly and politely demand the jourisdction of the Dominion of Canada, you have more power than ANY cop, polititian, political office, or any form of government. > > An education in what bloody should be the basics goes a long way. Gee I wonder why this is not common knowledge. Once shown, it is the easiest thing in the world to confirm (and christ does it open the mind!) > > > > Re the 70cc engines. look on ebay, look up BoyGoFast who sell these engines and they explain that the 70 & 80cc engines are a minsomer, they are built in 66 or 49cc. the differance is measurement. in North america we measure cylindrical volume, in differant places they include the combusion area in the cylinder head. > > I want one (or 2) of these things as we are 27 km out of the nearest town with decent shopping etc and it's either the one tonne dump truck - not a commumer vehicle, or the little sedan (the wife's) so this is a cheap option. > > and Haydan, your right, By registration under the motor vehicle act you are legally deeding (giving) your chattal property to "THE AUTHORITY" (same goes for real property.....how nice it is dealing with corporate canada eh?, bend over!) > > Re the MP hand outs. Corporate literature dictating exactly how they want you to perform IF REPEAT IF you choose to agree to their coroprate dogma. > > And one little bit more. As we have 'the corportation of the city of Wherever' who dictate what you are "allowed" and what you are not "allowed"....what is a Bylaw? Other than an 'internal corporate directive'? > > Anyone who is interested in more please feel free to contact me directly > > Private, non-commercial activity and private communication with no intent to profit. For intended recipient only. © copyright 2010 Shane Rothwell. All Rights Reserved. > > Cheers, > Shane > > > Re: Mobility ashore > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@...   theboilerflue > Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:31 am (PDT) > > > I ran into a friend I went to high school with five or six years ago, he had brought one of those little bike gas engines back with him from a trip to china, he said that one can get slightly larger than 50cc motors and just take the tag off and the cops don't know the difference as there's hardly any difference in size between the 70cc versions or what ever. While we were in school he was experimenting with attaching a chain saw motor to a bike, it worked pretty well, he just took the cranks off and attached another chain ring to the left side and ran a chain up to the motor mounted behind the seat, cops didn't like it very much, I believe he had a run in with them and they seized it for being unsafe or something, but he could really get that thing going, like upwards to 70 km/h. > That motorised recumbent bicycle was built by Ross Hunt he loves doing stuff like that he designed and had the gear box specially machined for it, he lives in Cumberland on Royston road, nice guy. > From what I understand of the law regarding motorised bikes is that anything under 50cc doesn't need insurance or registration, and Shane's correct in saying that as soon as you agree to registering it under the motor vehicular act you are agreeing to abide by the rules in that act. Unfortunately here in Canada unless you actually state otherwise your silence is considered acceptance of the laws imposed, so the cops just assume you agree to follow all the rules in all these acts the governments made up. Shane your comments remind me of the world freemans society, an interesting argument which is technically correct and lawful but as has been seen so far (and as has always been) the cops will just do what ever they want, if they want to fine you or take your bike away there really is no stopping them, that's why they carry guns. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > > > A quick call to the RCMP reveals (they have a handout you can pick up). There are two classes a motor assisted bike with power to 500 watts with which you can use a bike helmet and no license required and the next level is a gas engine to max 50cc and 1500 watts electric that requires registration through your insurance provider, a license, and a motocycle helmet. ICBC has the info on htem at their offices.. Regarding insurance--The courtenay fish and game associaation i think sponsored by the BC fish and wildlife association has insurance included in its membershiop for atvs, boats to 25?? feet and all outdoor activities.etc. The facts, nothing but the facts is all i have time for. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 23198|21460|2010-05-03 22:13:51|wild_explorer|Re: Modeling of BS36|Sorry Maxime, I was not reading forum lately. It is NOT necessary to have plans to do rough calculations. And I am not going to get one just to do my research what boat I need. It would be too expensive to buy all plans I consider just to get dimensions or hydrostatics report. Most newly designed boats have this information in specifications available online. To answer your question: I took dimensions which were readily available for Brent's boat. Brent's boat fits in cruiser category. So, some missing numbers could be estimated with acceptable error. I think, if my calculations are more than 10% off, Brent or members who have plans on hands will correct me. That why I provided link for online calculator in my original message. Ted Brewer and John Holtrop have developed very good system to estimate seaworthiness of the sailboat. P.S. Someone was asking Brent several days ago about draft of the BS36 without keel. Brent did not respond on that post. May be he has his own reasons not to do so. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "maxcamirand" wrote: > > wild_explorer: > > How can you be analyzing the stability of a hull for which you apparently don't have the plans? > > Regards, > -Maxime Camirand | 23199|21460|2010-05-04 11:51:12|sae140|Re: Modeling of BS36|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > It is NOT necessary to have plans to do rough calculations. And I am not going to get one just to do my research what boat I need. It would be too expensive > > How can you be analyzing the stability of a hull for which you apparently don't have the plans? > > Post #21489, Wed Nov 4, 2009 'Wild Explorer': "That why I want to make model in steel and as close as possible to original plans."| 23200|21460|2010-05-04 12:54:49|wild_explorer|Re: Modeling of BS36|Yep. I will make model from steel shim stock FIRST (from original or modified plans)as close as possible to the plan, no matter which plan I use. Brent's design approach looks most appealing to me. I might go for modified plan, simply because I do not see the way to convert pattern (not boat dimensions)from Brent's plan to 3D model at this time. It would be easier to make 3D model and go from there. More likely it will not be original Brent's plan anymore. But this way, I will have all specifications and hydrostatics for the boat. After looking at almost finished BS_40, I probably will go for 40 footer instead of 36. But it is the subject for another big post. For people who consider to build Brent's boat, it would be VERY helpful to see one of BS_36, BS_40. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > It is NOT necessary to have plans to do rough calculations. And I am not going to get one just to do my research what boat I need. It would be too expensive > > > > How can you be analyzing the stability of a hull for which you apparently don't have the plans? > > > > > > Post #21489, Wed Nov 4, 2009 > 'Wild Explorer': "That why I want to make model in steel and as close as possible to original plans." > | 23201|21186|2010-05-07 15:49:40|balljaseball|rigging wire|hello, what size galv rigging wire is used for the 31 and where do i get high tensile 1x7 galv wire and what is it normally used for as i've never seen it on the yachty scene, thanks| 23202|21186|2010-05-07 23:00:19|Carl Anderson|Re: rigging wire|its normally used as guy wire to hold up power poles. I used 3/8" on my 36 and it might be easier to find. only difficult item is the rigging vise if you want to turn your eyes. Carl sv-mom.com On 5/7/2010 12:43 PM, balljaseball wrote: > > > hello, what size galv rigging wire is used for the 31 and where do i get > high tensile 1x7 galv wire and what is it normally used for as i've > never seen it on the yachty scene, thanks > > | 23203|21186|2010-05-08 02:11:57|Aaron Williams|Re: rigging wire|Great place to shop for wire in the US. They have 1X7 galvanized in 5/16" http://www.sitepro1.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=660 --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] rigging wire To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 7:00 PM its normally used as guy wire to hold up power poles. I used 3/8" on my 36 and it might be easier to find. only difficult item is the rigging vise if you want  to turn your eyes. Carl sv-mom.com On 5/7/2010 12:43 PM, balljaseball wrote: > > > hello, what size galv rigging wire is used for the 31 and where do i get > high tensile 1x7 galv wire and what is it normally used for as i've > never seen it on the yachty scene, thanks > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23204|23182|2010-05-08 11:08:55|maxcamirand|Re: Mobility Ashore|Hi Brent, I think that's a misunderstanding. Their motto is only in French. There is no English version. The motto is "Maintiens le droit", which means maintaining the law. "Le droit", meaning the law, is totally different from "la droite", meaning "the right". I have no sympathy for abuse of police power, but I thought I should clear this up. Regards, -Max --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > And what is the RCMP motto? Maintain the (political) right, coined at a time right and left, politicaly, meant the same as it does today. In english Canada, it is written in french only, on their cars. Do they write it in english only in Quebec? Wonder why. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Hey Mark and Haydan, > > > > Mark, No jab intented. good work calling the MP's (However, there is no "Royal' related to them, nor is there anything Canadian, expept in the corporate sence.) > > > > This can be easily confirmed by a quick look at the american Securities and Exchange Commisssion in Washington DC. The Dominion of Canada, under the auspices of Pierre Elliot Tredeau (may he rot in hell!) was incorporated in 1969 (now why would ANY soverign nation incorprate in another juourisdiction other than to perpetrate a fraud????). Business address is the Canadian Embassy in Washington DC. > > > > THAT is what you deal with when you represent yourself with ID in this country. YOUR NAME spelt in full capitals (of course represented by that 9 digit number they call a 'social insurance number' that is nothing more than a corporate registry number. This is also the same entity that ties you in with tacit acceptance that Haydan mentioned (you did not say no, so legally, you just said yes.) > > > > Anyway, so, the "RCMP" as you call them, are a police force employed by, literally, Canada Inc. Same thing with ALL branches of the military. As all the cities are incorporated, their police forces are nothing but employees of a corporation. So what could that possibly make them other than a merinary? > > > > So a thug comes along, doesn't like the look of you, DEMANDS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Mobility ashore > > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@ theboilerflue > > Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:31 am (PDT) > > > > > > I ran into a friend I went to high school with five or six years ago, he had brought one of those little bike gas engines back with him from a trip to china, he said that one can get slightly larger than 50cc motors and just take the tag off and the cops don't know the difference as there's hardly any difference in size between the 70cc versions or what ever. While we were in school he was experimenting with attaching a chain saw motor to a bike, it worked pretty well, he just took the cranks off and attached another chain ring to the left side and ran a chain up to the motor mounted behind the seat, cops didn't like it very much, I believe he had a run in with them and they seized it for being unsafe or something, but he could really get that thing going, like upwards to 70 km/h. > > That motorised recumbent bicycle was built by Ross Hunt he loves doing stuff like that he designed and had the gear box specially machined for it, he lives in Cumberland on Royston road, nice guy. > > From what I understand of the law regarding motorised bikes is that anything under 50cc doesn't need insurance or registration, and Shane's correct in saying that as soon as you agree to registering it under the motor vehicular act you are agreeing to abide by the rules in that act. Unfortunately here in Canada unless you actually state otherwise your silence is considered acceptance of the laws imposed, so the cops just assume you agree to follow all the rules in all these acts the governments made up. Shane your comments remind me of the world freemans society, an interesting argument which is technically correct and lawful but as has been seen so far (and as has always been) the cops will just do what ever they want, if they want to fine you or take your bike away there really is no stopping them, that's why they carry guns. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > > > > > A quick call to the RCMP reveals (they have a handout you can pick up). There are two classes a motor assisted bike with power to 500 watts with which you can use a bike helmet and no license required and the next level is a gas engine to max 50cc and 1500 watts electric that requires registration through your insurance provider, a license, and a motocycle helmet. ICBC has the info on htem at their offices.. Regarding insurance--The courtenay fish and game associaation i think sponsored by the BC fish and wildlife association has insurance included in its membershiop for atvs, boats to 25?? feet and all outdoor activities.etc. The facts, nothing but the facts is all i have time for. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 23205|23205|2010-05-08 17:56:24|GP|Garmin GPS Map 76C|I found one of these at a pawn shop and bought it. I gather, if I want marine charts I need to download them from Garmin? Also, there was no usb cable with the unit...will any usb cable work? Thanks Gary| 23206|23205|2010-05-08 22:25:13|James Pronk|Re: Garmin GPS Map 76C|Hi Gary I have the same unit, mine came from Canadian Tire (or is it Chinadian Tire?). The usp that it came with won't hook into my computer so I need to look into it more. The charts I think are on the Garmin web page. James --- On Sat, 5/8/10, GP wrote: From: GP Subject: [origamiboats] Garmin GPS Map 76C To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 5:42 PM   I found one of these at a pawn shop and bought it. I gather, if I want marine charts I need to download them from Garmin? Also, there was no usb cable with the unit...will any usb cable work? Thanks Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23207|23205|2010-05-08 23:00:09|Aaron Williams|Re: Garmin GPS Map 76C|I had one of those when they first came out. You will need to buy the garmin map for the area you are in. last time I checked the maps were about $150.00 US. As long as the ome end fits in the unit you should be good to go. I think you can download the drivers at Garmin's site. Aaron   --- On Sat, 5/8/10, James Pronk wrote: From: James Pronk Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Garmin GPS Map 76C To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 6:25 PM   Hi Gary I have the same unit, mine came from Canadian Tire (or is it Chinadian Tire?). The usp that it came with won't hook into my computer so I need to look into it more. The charts I think are on the Garmin web page. James --- On Sat, 5/8/10, GP wrote: From: GP Subject: [origamiboats] Garmin GPS Map 76C To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Received: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 5:42 PM   I found one of these at a pawn shop and bought it. I gather, if I want marine charts I need to download them from Garmin? Also, there was no usb cable with the unit...will any usb cable work? Thanks Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23208|23208|2010-05-09 00:21:55|wild_explorer|BS40 - just right size (for ME)|After sorting all information I had so far for BS36 and BS40, I finally made a trip to BC to take a look at BS40. Some people say it is too big and some even say it is a "ship" compare to BS36 (message #1489). Yes, it is a big project, but it looks "just right" for me. The hull is foam insulated, has big tankage (fuel, water, waste tanks), about 8 big truck batteries, engine - all under the floor. Even so, it has lot of headroom. I did not bump my head anywhere inside. Inside is very roomy and probably can accommodate up to 6 people with reasonable comfort. Because of the size of the boat Pilot house and cabin allows to have low profile to reduce wind resistance and improve look. I felt very comfortable on a steel boat (probably something from my working past took over). There is enough room to move around the deck. Everything looks simple and well organized. According the owner, putting hull together was not hardest part of the project with proper equipment and good building site. Putting hull together DID REQUIRE precision in laying lines and cutting steel. Even with very good planning, detailing and finishing of the hull is the biggest job of the project. It is better to have interior plans (which fits your needs) to be in place, boat's engine, transmission, propeller, water system, electrical system, ventilation, rigging, etc. chosen and IF you have all this lined up, it will be easier to finish the project. It is a big project, and it needs very careful planing (as I expected). But it could be done in stages with detailed plans (for all systems) available BEFORE starting.| 23209|23208|2010-05-09 13:56:41|mauro gonzaga|Re: BS40 - just right size (for ME)|Are complete plans that you refer to, available from the designer? Mauro --- On Sun, 5/9/10, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] BS40 - just right size (for ME) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 6:16 AM   After sorting all information I had so far for BS36 and BS40, I finally made a trip to BC to take a look at BS40. Some people say it is too big and some even say it is a "ship" compare to BS36 (message #1489). Yes, it is a big project, but it looks "just right" for me. The hull is foam insulated, has big tankage (fuel, water, waste tanks), about 8 big truck batteries, engine - all under the floor. Even so, it has lot of headroom. I did not bump my head anywhere inside. Inside is very roomy and probably can accommodate up to 6 people with reasonable comfort. Because of the size of the boat Pilot house and cabin allows to have low profile to reduce wind resistance and improve look. I felt very comfortable on a steel boat (probably something from my working past took over). There is enough room to move around the deck. Everything looks simple and well organized. According the owner, putting hull together was not hardest part of the project with proper equipment and good building site. Putting hull together DID REQUIRE precision in laying lines and cutting steel. Even with very good planning, detailing and finishing of the hull is the biggest job of the project. It is better to have interior plans (which fits your needs) to be in place, boat's engine, transmission, propeller, water system, electrical system, ventilation, rigging, etc. chosen and IF you have all this lined up, it will be easier to finish the project. It is a big project, and it needs very careful planing (as I expected). But it could be done in stages with detailed plans (for all systems) available BEFORE starting. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23210|23208|2010-05-09 15:55:54|wild_explorer|Re: BS40 - just right size (for ME)|I do not have Brent's boats plans on hands. You better to ask Brent directly what is available. All my research on Brent's boats was done by using different sources (this group, Internet and conversations with builders/owners). I like the idea of origami boats - this is the way to go for ME. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Are complete plans that you refer to, available from the designer? > Mauro > > --- On Sun, 5/9/10, wild_explorer wrote: | 23211|21186|2010-05-10 17:20:09|brentswain38|Re: rigging wire|If you pre bend your wire where it meets after rounding the thimble, there is no need for a rigging vise. I use 5/16th for my 31, altho the 1/4 I began with was probably adequate. The difference in weight was minimal. Most industrial supplies which handle wire rope have it. Make sure you get the high tensile sch 180 , or it will have only 1/ 3rd the strength and will stretch like hell. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > its normally used as guy wire to hold up power poles. > I used 3/8" on my 36 and it might be easier to find. > only difficult item is the rigging vise if you want to turn your eyes. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > On 5/7/2010 12:43 PM, balljaseball wrote: > > > > > > hello, what size galv rigging wire is used for the 31 and where do i get > > high tensile 1x7 galv wire and what is it normally used for as i've > > never seen it on the yachty scene, thanks > > > > > | 23212|23205|2010-05-10 17:23:24|brentswain38|Re: Garmin GPS Map 76C|When you buy a Garmin , make sure you get it from a large chain store which has their own warrantee and you don't have to depend on Garmin. Don't buy form a mickey mouse outfit like Steveston Marine , who told me thay don't warantee anything they sell. Garmin's warantee aint worth much, in my experience. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I had one of those when they first came out. You will need to buy the garmin map for the area you are in. last time I checked the maps were about $150.00 US. As long as the ome end fits in the unit you should be good to go. I think you can download the drivers at Garmin's site. > Aaron   > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, James Pronk wrote: > > > From: James Pronk > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Garmin GPS Map 76C > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 6:25 PM > > >   > > > > Hi Gary > I have the same unit, mine came from Canadian Tire (or is it Chinadian Tire?). The usp that it came with won't hook into my computer so I need to look into it more. The charts I think are on the Garmin web page. > James > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, GP wrote: > > From: GP > Subject: [origamiboats] Garmin GPS Map 76C > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Received: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 5:42 PM > >   > > I found one of these at a pawn shop and bought it. I gather, if I want marine charts I need to download them from Garmin? Also, there was no usb cable with the unit...will any usb cable work? > > Thanks > Gary > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23213|23208|2010-05-10 17:31:18|brentswain38|Re: BS40 - just right size (for ME)|Yes complete plans are available from me , $350 for the 36 ,and $500 for the 40 . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Are complete plans that you refer to, available from the designer? > Mauro > > --- On Sun, 5/9/10, wild_explorer wrote: > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] BS40 - just right size (for ME) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 6:16 AM > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > After sorting all information I had so far for BS36 and BS40, I finally made a trip to BC to take a look at BS40. Some people say it is too big and some even say it is a "ship" compare to BS36 (message #1489). > > > > Yes, it is a big project, but it looks "just right" for me. The hull is foam insulated, has big tankage (fuel, water, waste tanks), about 8 big truck batteries, engine - all under the floor. Even so, it has lot of headroom. I did not bump my head anywhere inside. Inside is very roomy and probably can accommodate up to 6 people with reasonable comfort. Because of the size of the boat Pilot house and cabin allows to have low profile to reduce wind resistance and improve look. > > > > I felt very comfortable on a steel boat (probably something from my working past took over). There is enough room to move around the deck. Everything looks simple and well organized. > > > > According the owner, putting hull together was not hardest part of the project with proper equipment and good building site. Putting hull together DID REQUIRE precision in laying lines and cutting steel. Even with very good planning, detailing and finishing of the hull is the biggest job of the project. > > > > It is better to have interior plans (which fits your needs) to be in place, boat's engine, transmission, propeller, water system, electrical system, ventilation, rigging, etc. chosen and IF you have all this lined up, it will be easier to finish the project. > > > > It is a big project, and it needs very careful planing (as I expected). But it could be done in stages with detailed plans (for all systems) available BEFORE starting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23214|23182|2010-05-10 17:32:13|brentswain38|Re: Mobility Ashore|The lying thugs in jackboots don't make the distinction . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "maxcamirand" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > I think that's a misunderstanding. Their motto is only in French. There is no English version. The motto is "Maintiens le droit", which means maintaining the law. "Le droit", meaning the law, is totally different from "la droite", meaning "the right". > > I have no sympathy for abuse of police power, but I thought I should clear this up. > > Regards, > -Max > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > And what is the RCMP motto? Maintain the (political) right, coined at a time right and left, politicaly, meant the same as it does today. In english Canada, it is written in french only, on their cars. Do they write it in english only in Quebec? Wonder why. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > > > Hey Mark and Haydan, > > > > > > Mark, No jab intented. good work calling the MP's (However, there is no "Royal' related to them, nor is there anything Canadian, expept in the corporate sence.) > > > > > > This can be easily confirmed by a quick look at the american Securities and Exchange Commisssion in Washington DC. The Dominion of Canada, under the auspices of Pierre Elliot Tredeau (may he rot in hell!) was incorporated in 1969 (now why would ANY soverign nation incorprate in another juourisdiction other than to perpetrate a fraud????). Business address is the Canadian Embassy in Washington DC. > > > > > > THAT is what you deal with when you represent yourself with ID in this country. YOUR NAME spelt in full capitals (of course represented by that 9 digit number they call a 'social insurance number' that is nothing more than a corporate registry number. This is also the same entity that ties you in with tacit acceptance that Haydan mentioned (you did not say no, so legally, you just said yes.) > > > > > > Anyway, so, the "RCMP" as you call them, are a police force employed by, literally, Canada Inc. Same thing with ALL branches of the military. As all the cities are incorporated, their police forces are nothing but employees of a corporation. So what could that possibly make them other than a merinary? > > > > > > So a thug comes along, doesn't like the look of you, DEMANDS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Mobility ashore > > > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@ theboilerflue > > > Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:31 am (PDT) > > > > > > > > > I ran into a friend I went to high school with five or six years ago, he had brought one of those little bike gas engines back with him from a trip to china, he said that one can get slightly larger than 50cc motors and just take the tag off and the cops don't know the difference as there's hardly any difference in size between the 70cc versions or what ever. While we were in school he was experimenting with attaching a chain saw motor to a bike, it worked pretty well, he just took the cranks off and attached another chain ring to the left side and ran a chain up to the motor mounted behind the seat, cops didn't like it very much, I believe he had a run in with them and they seized it for being unsafe or something, but he could really get that thing going, like upwards to 70 km/h. > > > That motorised recumbent bicycle was built by Ross Hunt he loves doing stuff like that he designed and had the gear box specially machined for it, he lives in Cumberland on Royston road, nice guy. > > > From what I understand of the law regarding motorised bikes is that anything under 50cc doesn't need insurance or registration, and Shane's correct in saying that as soon as you agree to registering it under the motor vehicular act you are agreeing to abide by the rules in that act. Unfortunately here in Canada unless you actually state otherwise your silence is considered acceptance of the laws imposed, so the cops just assume you agree to follow all the rules in all these acts the governments made up. Shane your comments remind me of the world freemans society, an interesting argument which is technically correct and lawful but as has been seen so far (and as has always been) the cops will just do what ever they want, if they want to fine you or take your bike away there really is no stopping them, that's why they carry guns. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > > > > > > > A quick call to the RCMP reveals (they have a handout you can pick up). There are two classes a motor assisted bike with power to 500 watts with which you can use a bike helmet and no license required and the next level is a gas engine to max 50cc and 1500 watts electric that requires registration through your insurance provider, a license, and a motocycle helmet. ICBC has the info on htem at their offices.. Regarding insurance--The courtenay fish and game associaation i think sponsored by the BC fish and wildlife association has insurance included in its membershiop for atvs, boats to 25?? feet and all outdoor activities.etc. The facts, nothing but the facts is all i have time for. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 23215|23205|2010-05-11 22:48:43|Mark Hamill|Garmin GPS Map 76C|Join the Seaclear Yahoo group to find out what you need. Check the back messages. Seaclear is a free navigation program. The following is from another group. Here is a download link to OpenCPN. http://opencpn.org/ You can obtain charts here. http://yachtvalhalla.net/downloads/download.htm You will need all ten of these files, each of around 100mb. cm93 Navigation Charts (Version May 2009) After downloading the region of interest, unzip the folder to reveal a 'cm93' folder. Drag and drop this folder to the C: drive. Regions can be combined by placing all of the numbered sub-folders into one 'cm93' folder along with one copy of the seven small overhead files at the bottom of the folder. Gary more recent version (January 2010) you can be find here: http://cnf.by.ru/ and to navigate into slightly more on topic waters: they have charts and pilots for the China Sea too ... Nastrowje! The South China Sea can be downloaded from here as well. http://www.scsenc.org.hk/login.php The Russian site is frustrating to download from as you have to wait an hour between downloads. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23216|23216|2010-05-13 13:21:48|wild_explorer|Steel mast for 40 footer.|I know it was a lot of discussion here on the subject. I am choosing steel mast. What is recommended mast's lenght for 40 footer? This is MY calculation for 16m long, 153mm diameter, 3.175mm wall (52.5ft, 6in, 1/8in): Weight - 0.193 tonne Displacement - 0.3 tonne Reserve buoyancy - 0.107 tonne (for sealed mast) What is optimal diameter and wall for steel mast of recommended length for 40 footer? 1/8 (3.175mm) wall looks like a close match to recommended in post # 22957.| 23217|23216|2010-05-13 14:07:54|Gord Schnell|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|The mast for my 40' BS is 52' 10" based on calculations I did "a long time ago". I don't recall the weight of it and I'll need "a few strong men" to get it on a scale. I suspect it is heavier than your calculated 425 lbs.. I "over-balasted" by about 500 lbs to counter the heavier mast. Gord On 13-May-10, at 10:20 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > I know it was a lot of discussion here on the subject. I am choosing > steel mast. > > What is recommended mast's lenght for 40 footer? > > This is MY calculation for 16m long, 153mm diameter, 3.175mm wall > (52.5ft, 6in, 1/8in): > > Weight - 0.193 tonne > Displacement - 0.3 tonne > Reserve buoyancy - 0.107 tonne (for sealed mast) > > What is optimal diameter and wall for steel mast of recommended > length for 40 footer? > > 1/8 (3.175mm) wall looks like a close match to recommended in post # > 22957. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23218|23216|2010-05-13 16:43:10|Carl Anderson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|I also overballasted my boat by 500 pounds. That was more to compensate for the larger pilothouse than anything. Carl sv-mom.com Gord Schnell wrote: > The mast for my 40' BS is 52' 10" based on calculations I did "a long > time ago". I don't recall the weight of it and I'll need "a few strong > men" to get it on a scale. I suspect it is heavier than your > calculated 425 lbs.. I "over-balasted" by about 500 lbs to counter the > heavier mast. > Gord > On 13-May-10, at 10:20 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > >> I know it was a lot of discussion here on the subject. I am choosing >> steel mast. >> >> What is recommended mast's lenght for 40 footer? >> >> This is MY calculation for 16m long, 153mm diameter, 3.175mm wall >> (52.5ft, 6in, 1/8in): >> >> Weight - 0.193 tonne >> Displacement - 0.3 tonne >> Reserve buoyancy - 0.107 tonne (for sealed mast) >> >> What is optimal diameter and wall for steel mast of recommended >> length for 40 footer? >> >> 1/8 (3.175mm) wall looks like a close match to recommended in post # >> 22957. >> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 23219|23216|2010-05-13 17:11:27|Paul Wilson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|That sounds so heavy......how much do the steel masts actually weigh? My understanding was that they were heavier, but not by that much. For instance, I can easily lift my aluminum 44 foot mast for my 36 footer with two people. It is big for the 36 footer and is an 8.5 x 6 inch aluminum oval section. It weighs about 220 pounds without the fittings. A quick look at one of my design books shows large aluminum mast sections (10 inch x 6 inch x .22) at 6.3 pounds per foot so that would be about 330 pounds plus the weight of the fittings. I could be wrong, but I think this would be a good section for the 40 footer since I have seen larger yachts with smaller sections than that. There are larger sections with the same or thinner walls but they all vary between 6 to about 7 pounds a foot. If you go with double spreaders, the sections can be made smaller due to increased support. My reference for the above is "Skene's Elements of Yacht Design". It's a definite advantage to have a sealed mast but if rolled over it may not stay up so you can't count on it. It is not normally taken into consideration in doing calculations for this reason. Cheers, Paul Gord Schnell wrote: > The mast for my 40' BS is 52' 10" based on calculations I did "a long > time ago". I don't recall the weight of it and I'll need "a few strong > men" to get it on a scale. I suspect it is heavier than your > calculated 425 lbs.. I "over-balasted" by about 500 lbs to counter the > heavier mast. > Gord > On 13-May-10, at 10:20 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > > >> I know it was a lot of discussion here on the subject. I am choosing >> steel mast. >> >> What is recommended mast's lenght for 40 footer? >> >> This is MY calculation for 16m long, 153mm diameter, 3.175mm wall >> (52.5ft, 6in, 1/8in): >> >> Weight - 0.193 tonne >> Displacement - 0.3 tonne >> Reserve buoyancy - 0.107 tonne (for sealed mast) >> >> What is optimal diameter and wall for steel mast of recommended >> length for 40 footer? >> >> 1/8 (3.175mm) wall looks like a close match to recommended in post # >> 22957. >> >> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 23220|23216|2010-05-13 18:56:35|theboilerflue|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|I put 4850 pound into my keel, I had the lead and figured it couldn't hurt to over ballast the boat a bit, I believe the plans call for 4500 pounds? My mast sounds the same as paul's mast, though 47 feet, I could carry it around without the hardware on it and could just move it around by myself, needed two people at that point. Picked up a nice steel mast in coombs last week and was very surprised at how light it was, I'm guessing that it was made with 1/8" walled pipe, maybe a couple hundred pounds heavier than my aluminium one if that. That said if I were building a mast, and I had the money and space/equipment to do so I would build a nice strong aluminium mast made from pipe like MOM has, without the capabilities to build with aluminium I wouldn't hesitate to build a nice steel one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I also overballasted my boat by 500 pounds. > That was more to compensate for the larger pilothouse than anything. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > Gord Schnell wrote: > > The mast for my 40' BS is 52' 10" based on calculations I did "a long > > time ago". I don't recall the weight of it and I'll need "a few strong > > men" to get it on a scale. I suspect it is heavier than your > > calculated 425 lbs.. I "over-balasted" by about 500 lbs to counter the > > heavier mast. > > Gord > > On 13-May-10, at 10:20 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > >> I know it was a lot of discussion here on the subject. I am choosing > >> steel mast. > >> > >> What is recommended mast's lenght for 40 footer? > >> > >> This is MY calculation for 16m long, 153mm diameter, 3.175mm wall > >> (52.5ft, 6in, 1/8in): > >> > >> Weight - 0.193 tonne > >> Displacement - 0.3 tonne > >> Reserve buoyancy - 0.107 tonne (for sealed mast) > >> > >> What is optimal diameter and wall for steel mast of recommended > >> length for 40 footer? > >> > >> 1/8 (3.175mm) wall looks like a close match to recommended in post # > >> 22957. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > | 23221|23216|2010-05-13 19:11:46|kingsknight4life|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|I can get a good deal on some 5" sched 40 aluminum pipe. Is this too light for a mast on a 36 footer? I know some have gone with 6" sched 40 but I was "hoping" that they were erring on the side of caution and building extra stout masts and my lighter pipe would work?? rowland| 23222|23216|2010-05-13 20:13:40|martin demers|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|I am considering gaff rig for my boat, despiter what some have to say about it, it would allow me to use a shorter mast wich would lower the weigh height. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 09:11:18 +1200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel mast for 40 footer. That sounds so heavy......how much do the steel masts actually weigh? My understanding was that they were heavier, but not by that much. For instance, I can easily lift my aluminum 44 foot mast for my 36 footer with two people. It is big for the 36 footer and is an 8.5 x 6 inch aluminum oval section. It weighs about 220 pounds without the fittings. A quick look at one of my design books shows large aluminum mast sections (10 inch x 6 inch x .22) at 6.3 pounds per foot so that would be about 330 pounds plus the weight of the fittings. I could be wrong, but I think this would be a good section for the 40 footer since I have seen larger yachts with smaller sections than that. There are larger sections with the same or thinner walls but they all vary between 6 to about 7 pounds a foot. If you go with double spreaders, the sections can be made smaller due to increased support. My reference for the above is "Skene's Elements of Yacht Design". It's a definite advantage to have a sealed mast but if rolled over it may not stay up so you can't count on it. It is not normally taken into consideration in doing calculations for this reason. Cheers, Paul Gord Schnell wrote: > The mast for my 40' BS is 52' 10" based on calculations I did "a long > time ago". I don't recall the weight of it and I'll need "a few strong > men" to get it on a scale. I suspect it is heavier than your > calculated 425 lbs.. I "over-balasted" by about 500 lbs to counter the > heavier mast. > Gord > On 13-May-10, at 10:20 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > > >> I know it was a lot of discussion here on the subject. I am choosing >> steel mast. >> >> What is recommended mast's lenght for 40 footer? >> >> This is MY calculation for 16m long, 153mm diameter, 3.175mm wall >> (52.5ft, 6in, 1/8in): >> >> Weight - 0.193 tonne >> Displacement - 0.3 tonne >> Reserve buoyancy - 0.107 tonne (for sealed mast) >> >> What is optimal diameter and wall for steel mast of recommended >> length for 40 footer? >> >> 1/8 (3.175mm) wall looks like a close match to recommended in post # >> 22957. >> >> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23223|23216|2010-05-13 20:39:28|Paul Wilson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|It probably won't be lighter when you take in to account the weight of the gaff. Also, using a gaff makes it much harder to find used sails that will fit. Paul martin demers wrote: > I am considering gaff rig for my boat, despiter what some have to say about it, it would allow me to use a shorter mast wich would lower the weigh height. > > > | 23224|23216|2010-05-13 20:50:14|Paul Wilson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|I would think it might be a bit whippy. The mast really pumps when going into a big chop. Surprisingly, 5 inch pipe is about half the stiffness of 6 inch. If you go to the files section, I posted an article a couple of years ago from an old magazine called "Build your own mast". It has stiffness numbers for aluminum tubing and is a pretty good article on design of masts using standard tube and pipe. I have never seen another article like it. kingsknight4life wrote: > > > I can get a good deal on some 5" sched 40 aluminum pipe. Is this too > light for a mast on a 36 footer? I know some have gone with 6" sched > 40 but I was "hoping" that they were erring on the side of caution and > building extra stout masts and my lighter pipe would work?? > > rowland > > __._,_ > > | 23225|23216|2010-05-13 21:41:24|Carl Anderson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Rowland, 5" sch 40 would be ideal for a 36. The moment of inertia for the 6" sch 40 that I used was about 2:1 overkill. I would think that the moment of inertia value for 5" would be above what Yacht-Tech figured a 36 needed (about 15" to the 4th). Carl sv-mom.com kingsknight4life wrote: > > > I can get a good deal on some 5" sched 40 aluminum pipe. Is this too > light for a mast on a 36 footer? I know some have gone with 6" sched 40 > but I was "hoping" that they were erring on the side of caution and > building extra stout masts and my lighter pipe would work?? > > rowland > > | 23226|23216|2010-05-13 22:02:02|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|15" to the 4th.....please explain??? Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: Carl Anderson Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 19:41:11 To: Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. Rowland, 5" sch 40 would be ideal for a 36. The moment of inertia for the 6" sch 40 that I used was about 2:1 overkill. I would think that the moment of inertia value for 5" would be above what Yacht-Tech figured a 36 needed (about 15" to the 4th). Carl sv-mom.com kingsknight4life wrote: > > > I can get a good deal on some 5" sched 40 aluminum pipe. Is this too > light for a mast on a 36 footer? I know some have gone with 6" sched 40 > but I was "hoping" that they were erring on the side of caution and > building extra stout masts and my lighter pipe would work?? > > rowland > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links| 23227|23227|2010-05-13 22:27:46|sitefix|bella via|hi, be anybody in knowledge of how to contact "SV Bella Via"??? I be thinking of a question or two to ask. Ok, sorry about the scribble, to much imported Trappist stuff. Say's me son, "This aint that bad". He is old enough for no charges of child abuse now. Just assault. arrggghh. thanks fer any leads. Par sitefix@...| 23228|22|2010-05-13 22:54:57|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Origami_hulls_and_stability/Helm_control.pdf Uploaded by : wild_explorer Description : Good_ifromation_about_helm_control_and_position_of_the_mast You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Origami_hulls_and_stability/Helm_control.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles Regards, wild_explorer | 23229|23229|2010-05-14 00:55:59|akenai|Aluminum Boom section for sale|I have a 16' aluminum tube that I need to sell. It was an extra from Carl and Kate's Boat and it is the same type they used for the boom. $200. I had a change of plans as of yesterday. Thanks Aaron| 23230|23229|2010-05-14 01:08:11|Aaron Williams|Re: Aluminum Boom section for sale|It is 8" X 4" X 16' with .180 wall thickness. Also has track for internal slides. Located in Nanaimo. --- On Thu, 5/13/10, akenai wrote: From: akenai Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Boom section for sale To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 8:55 PM   I have a 16' aluminum tube that I need to sell. It was an extra from Carl and Kate's Boat and it is the same type they used for the boom. $200. I had a change of plans as of yesterday. Thanks Aaron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23231|23216|2010-05-14 08:55:18|Carl Anderson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|the units of measurement that the moment of inertia is expressed in gschnell@... wrote: > 15" to the 4th.....please explain??? Gord > Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. > Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Carl Anderson > Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 19:41:11 > To: > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. > > Rowland, > > 5" sch 40 would be ideal for a 36. > The moment of inertia for the 6" sch 40 that I used was about 2:1 overkill. > I would think that the moment of inertia value for 5" would be above > what Yacht-Tech figured a 36 needed (about 15" to the 4th). > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > kingsknight4life wrote: >> >> >> I can get a good deal on some 5" sched 40 aluminum pipe. Is this too >> light for a mast on a 36 footer? I know some have gone with 6" sched 40 >> but I was "hoping" that they were erring on the side of caution and >> building extra stout masts and my lighter pipe would work?? >> >> rowland >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 23232|23216|2010-05-14 09:07:25|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|These calculators could be useful: http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators.htm For tube/pipe, rectangle, hex, etc. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > the units of measurement that the moment of inertia is expressed in > > > gschnell@... wrote: > > 15" to the 4th.....please explain??? Gord | 23233|23216|2010-05-14 09:23:25|Carl Anderson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Very nice calculator. Shows that the inertia values for 6" sch 40 pipe as around 29. That is the 2:1 overkill value that I came up with as Yacht-Tech determined that a 36 needs about 15.5 fore & aft with about 14.8 side to side. (a round mast section works very well for this). Carl sv-mom.com wild_explorer wrote: > > > These calculators could be useful: > > http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators.htm > > For tube/pipe, rectangle, hex, etc. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > the units of measurement that the moment of inertia is expressed in > > > > > > gschnell@... wrote: > > > 15" to the 4th.....please explain??? Gord > > | 23234|23234|2010-05-14 11:02:58|wild_explorer|Tanks - size & weight prediction|I am trying to figure out what is average distance (range) for ocean going boat need to take in an account. Depending on this, it will require proper size for fuel and water tanks. It will affect total boat's weight as well. Any recommendations?| 23235|23216|2010-05-14 11:10:43|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|15 to the power of 4 Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: wild_explorer Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 13:02:20 To: Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. These calculators could be useful: http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators.htm For tube/pipe, rectangle, hex, etc. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > the units of measurement that the moment of inertia is expressed in > > > gschnell@... wrote: > > 15" to the 4th.....please explain??? Gord [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23236|23216|2010-05-14 11:28:11|Matt Malone|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Yes, I agree, excellent calculators... Unfortunately, their metric is in millimeters ! Careful to convert to meters before using a stiffness or strength in GPa or MPa respectively. Carl, I see that Yacht-Tech is a company that does masts and spars... Did they give any explanation as to where 15.5 and 14.8 came from? I am also unclear as to what units or parameter you are giving here... It is EI -- Young's Modulus times second moment of area ? This would be the most important quantity in both bending and buckling calculations. This takes into account both the material and the shape, so for instance one might compare aluminum and steel options. The calculators are giving only second moment of area. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: cwa@... > Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 07:22:04 -0600 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. > > Very nice calculator. > Shows that the inertia values for 6" sch 40 pipe as around 29. > That is the 2:1 overkill value that I came up with as Yacht-Tech > determined that a 36 needs about 15.5 fore & aft with about 14.8 side to > side. (a round mast section works very well for this). > > Carl > sv-mom.com _________________________________________________________________ Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23237|23216|2010-05-14 12:31:21|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Any advantages/disadvantages of rectangle tube mast vs. round tube mast? (Weight/needed_directional_strength ratio)| 23238|23216|2010-05-14 12:53:06|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Some calculators for tube weight: For steel - rectangular and round tube http://www.agileruggedterrainvehicles.com/metalweights.html Different materials - round tube (and solid shapes) http://www.jindalstainless.com/toolkit/weight-calculator.html| 23239|23216|2010-05-14 13:22:48|Matt Malone|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|If you run the computations of E*I vs weight, you will find that a round or oval tube gives slightly better mechanical properties for the same weight, or lower weight for the same properties. Also, airflow around the leading edge and onto the sail is better on a round-er cross-section. The airflow can be improved by fairing the section (adding stuff to make it round-er. It is the leeward side of the mast going upwind that will contribute to the flow remaining attached to the sail, or the flow separating. When they flow remains attached, you get better suction, and more efficient sail performance. I would suspect that your minimum pointing angle to the wind would be substantially increased with a square section mast. For down-wind sailing, I cannot see how square vs. round really matters for airflow. I think in the end, your choice will be more constrained by availability, both in what sizes and shapes are manufactured, and what you might be able to get your hands on easily at a reasonable price. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:31:07 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. Any advantages/disadvantages of rectangle tube mast vs. round tube mast? (Weight/needed_directional_strength ratio) _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23240|23216|2010-05-14 14:34:40|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Make sense... What is unclear to me, how to choose Moment of inertia for the mast? It will make the difference. This is an example for different shapes for 52' mast: Round tube: OD=6", ID=5.75", Wall = 0.125, area = 2.3, Moment if inertia (I) = 9.94, weight = 407 LBs Square tube: Exterior side=6", Interior side=5.75", Wall = 0.125, area = 2.4, (I) = 16.9, , weight = 519 LBs Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 5.75, (I_longit) = 47.6 and (I_trans) = 15.9, weight = 519 LBs But to bring round shape to the same I ~ 17 will require 0.225" wall Round tube: OD=6", ID=5.55", Wall = 0.225, area = 4.08, (I) = 17.01, weight = 722 LBs --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > If you run the computations of E*I vs weight, you will find that a round or oval tube gives slightly better mechanical properties for the same weight, or lower weight for the same properties. Also, airflow around the leading edge and onto the sail is better on a round-er cross-section. The airflow can be improved by fairing the section (adding stuff to make it round-er. It is the leeward side of the mast going upwind that will contribute to the flow remaining attached to the sail, or the flow separating. When they flow remains attached, you get better suction, and more efficient sail performance. I would suspect that your minimum pointing angle to the wind would be substantially increased with a square section mast. For down-wind sailing, I cannot see how square vs. round really matters for airflow. > > > > I think in the end, your choice will be more constrained by availability, both in what sizes and shapes are manufactured, and what you might be able to get your hands on easily at a reasonable price. > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:31:07 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. > > > > > > Any advantages/disadvantages of rectangle tube mast vs. round tube mast? (Weight/needed_directional_strength ratio) > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23241|23234|2010-05-14 14:46:58|theboilerflue|Re: Tanks - size & weight prediction|You need to figure out how much fuel you're going to be using, smaller engines like mine use hardly any fuel and 50 gallons would do me for a long time, as it is I have more tankage than that, So far living on my boat I find that I go through my 80 gallons of water in about 2 - 3 months so no worries there, don't plan on being away from land/rain for longer than 2 months. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I am trying to figure out what is average distance (range) for ocean going boat need to take in an account. Depending on this, it will require proper size for fuel and water tanks. It will affect total boat's weight as well. > > Any recommendations? > | 23242|23216|2010-05-14 15:06:44|Carl Anderson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Matt, Yacht-Tech based their calculations on the dimensions of the boat. (OAL, LWL, beam, draft, height above waterline, displacement) This was so they could give me an accurate quote for a "factory" made mast. (you need to know what mast section size to get a real quote) Carl, sv-mom.com Matt Malone wrote: > Carl, I see that Yacht-Tech is a company that does masts and spars... > Did they give any explanation as to where 15.5 and 14.8 came from? I am > also unclear as to what units or parameter you are giving here... It is > EI -- Young's Modulus times second moment of area ? This would be the > most important quantity in both bending and buckling calculations. This > takes into account both the material and the shape, so for instance one > might compare aluminum and steel options. The calculators are giving > only second moment of area. > > Matt | 23243|23234|2010-05-14 15:26:41|wild_explorer|Re: Tanks - size & weight prediction|I actually need the range in miles. If I know it, it would be easy to estimate fuel tank: (Range/speed)*Engine_consumption_per_hour (motoring only) Not so easy with water. There are some numbers what person need per day, but I believe it is "survival mode". Need to calculate cruising consumption per person (Drinking, cooking, hygiene, etc). It looks like 80 Gallons of water for 1 person (on board full time) even for 2 month might not work very well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > You need to figure out how much fuel you're going to be using, smaller engines like mine use hardly any fuel and 50 gallons would do me for a long time, as it is I have more tankage than that, So far living on my boat I find that I go through my 80 gallons of water in about 2 - 3 months so no worries there, don't plan on being away from land/rain for longer than 2 months. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > I am trying to figure out what is average distance (range) for ocean going boat need to take in an account. Depending on this, it will require proper size for fuel and water tanks. It will affect total boat's weight as well. > > > > Any recommendations? > > > | 23244|23216|2010-05-14 15:36:14|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Some information I found on "mast" subject. http://www.metalsailboats.com/STEEL-SAILBOAT-MAST-DESIGN.html| 23245|23216|2010-05-14 15:41:19|Matt Malone|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|All good questions... that I am working on also. I have never designed a mast before but am considering my options. The two formuli that seem important are bending and buckling. Wikipedia gives a good explanation of both: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bending http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckling In both of these equations, the important term for the cross-section is Youngs modulus times the second moment of area or E*I. Everyone posting so far has been giving only I values. This ignores the exact choice of material. I believe it was Carl who said Yacht-Tech suggested some I values, but without knowing what material they had in mind (the E), we do not know the EI. If they were thinking extruded aluminum, then a steel mast would be much more structurally stiff at the same I. A mast has both bending and buckling at the same time, which I have yet to see a readily available formula for. As an experiment, take a metal meter stick, stand it up and push down on it like a column with your thumb. Then do it again, but this time press laterally about halfway down with your finger on the other hand-- buckles more easily. A main sail going to weather creates a large suction that is both lateral and forward. As the boat heels, the righting moment from the heel of the boat balances the moment caused by the wind on the sail and the boat stands stably at a heel angle. With a deck-stepped mast (or a keel-stepped one where the doghouse does not press laterally on the mast), this moment is carried up into the mast by additional tension on the weather side, and less tension on the leeway side of the standing rigging. The low angle at which the standing rigging comes together at the top of the mast causes a compressive force downward on the mast which is important for buckling. The side forces from the sail, translated to the mast, all the way up the mast, cause the mast to experience bending. One must examine these forces together to see if the bending of the mast is acceptably small, and there is no danger of buckling, and there is no danger of exceeding the strength of the mast (three separate tests I can think of off the top of my head).... Add to this that spreaders assist to reduce compression, and improve lateral bending resistance, but do nothing to help forward-aft bending. I think it would be more efficient for a layman not to speak of moments of inertia or anything else, and find someone who is using a steel pipe as a mast. Find their sail areas, spreader configurations, and boat size, go sailing with them in some heavy stuff, and see what you think of their mast's performance. One layman's trick: When something is close to a buckling failure, its frequency of vibration goes to zero (try this with the metal meter-stick). Tap the mast with a rubber hammer in port and again when it is really pulling to weather. You should notice a difference in pitch because of the added compressive load. You can also do this by changing the tension in the standing rigging -- tighter standing rigging vibrates, like a guitar-string, at a higher frequency as you add tension, the mast will vibrate at a lower frequency with the added compression -- this of course is just to see the effect, one generally loosens the rig to reduce standing compression in the mast. How much is a lot? Well an octave difference between port and pulling hard is a lot. Octave = 1/2 the frequency, which is half the stiffness, and when lateral stiffness goes to zero, the column buckles, so, an octave is half way to failing, it seems, but, this is not a factor of 2 safety ! Buckling is odd. Small defects to a perfect structure can drastically change its buckling strength. All the attachments and rigging points are potentially just such problems. Also, the mast can experience a local buckling, wrinkle and fold. So, I would look for a detectable (indicating not grossly over-designed) but small change in pitch between port and pulling hard to weather. Then I would be inclined to copy their rig. EI is not the end of the story however. If we keep the EI constant, but reduce the E of the material then we end up with a mast with a higher I. A higher I, maybe from using a thicker wall in aluminum than one would in steel, really changes the failure level for a face-wrinkling failure leading to buckling. I have looked at steel pipe, and I am toying with the idea of a wood pole right now. I have not ruled out an aluminum extrusion right now, but that is like $5,000 just for the extrusion for the mast. When I was considering steel pipe, I was also considering having the entire thing galvanized. I am far from making a mast decision, atm. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 18:34:24 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. Make sense... What is unclear to me, how to choose Moment of inertia for the mast? It will make the difference. This is an example for different shapes for 52' mast: Round tube: OD=6", ID=5.75", Wall = 0.125, area = 2.3, Moment if inertia (I) = 9.94, weight = 407 LBs Square tube: Exterior side=6", Interior side=5.75", Wall = 0.125, area = 2.4, (I) = 16.9, , weight = 519 LBs Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 5.75, (I_longit) = 47.6 and (I_trans) = 15.9, weight = 519 LBs But to bring round shape to the same I ~ 17 will require 0.225" wall Round tube: OD=6", ID=5.55", Wall = 0.225, area = 4.08, (I) = 17.01, weight = 722 LBs --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > If you run the computations of E*I vs weight, you will find that a round or oval tube gives slightly better mechanical properties for the same weight, or lower weight for the same properties. Also, airflow around the leading edge and onto the sail is better on a round-er cross-section. The airflow can be improved by fairing the section (adding stuff to make it round-er. It is the leeward side of the mast going upwind that will contribute to the flow remaining attached to the sail, or the flow separating. When they flow remains attached, you get better suction, and more efficient sail performance. I would suspect that your minimum pointing angle to the wind would be substantially increased with a square section mast. For down-wind sailing, I cannot see how square vs. round really matters for airflow. > > > > I think in the end, your choice will be more constrained by availability, both in what sizes and shapes are manufactured, and what you might be able to get your hands on easily at a reasonable price. > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:31:07 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. > > > > > > Any advantages/disadvantages of rectangle tube mast vs. round tube mast? (Weight/needed_directional_strength ratio) > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23246|23234|2010-05-14 15:56:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: Tanks - size & weight prediction|On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 07:26:20PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > I actually need the range in miles. If I know it, it would be easy to > estimate fuel tank: (Range/speed)*Engine_consumption_per_hour > (motoring only) > > Not so easy with water. Not so easy with fuel, either: your consumption may vary by a factor of three depending on how rough the water is. > There are some numbers what person need per > day, but I believe it is "survival mode". Need to calculate cruising > consumption per person (Drinking, cooking, hygiene, etc). > > It looks like 80 Gallons of water for 1 person (on board full time) > even for 2 month might not work very well. A lot depends on you and the crew. I've heard of a guy who had crossed the Atlantic a number of times, usually with another crewman aboard, and carried something like 34 gallons aboard (30 in the tank, 4 in gallon jugs) - and yet, always arrived in the islands with water still in the tank. His trick was that the only way you could get water out of the tank was by pressurizing it - by blowing into an attached tube. It took about an opera's worth of huffing an puffing to fill up a kettle. :) I also spoke to a guy who had left Antigua for (if I recall correctly) Portugal - and had to turn around and come back after four days at sea. He was on a great big "floating palace" of a powerboat, with a thousand gallons or so of water aboard - but he had brought a bevy of curvy blonde bunnies as crew, and they just loooOOOooooOOOoved long hot showers... -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23247|23216|2010-05-14 16:25:17|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|May be this information will help: Source: http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/5280-cruising.html Kenyon Spars 5280 Cruising Mast Section Moments of inertia: Ixx = 31.70", Iyy = 15.10" Weight/ft.: 5.20 lbs. Alloy: 6061-T6 Standard lengths: 44', 48', 55'6" Kenyon 5280 Mast Section Common Mast usage: Alejuela 38; Cal 35*; Contessa 35; Endeavour 35*, 37; Ericson 38, 380*; Hans Christian 33; Hansa 33; Horizon 39K Main; Hunter 36*, 37**, 54*; Islander 36*; Lancer 37, Corinthian 41; Lord Nelson 35; Morgan 36 OI; Orion 35; Roberts 38; Seidelman 37; US-35; Looks pretty close to this steel by Ixx and Iyy: Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 5.75, (I_longit) = 47.6 and (I_trans) = 15.9, weight = 519 LBs P.S. Too much learning in 1 day for me ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > In both of these equations, the important term for the cross-section is Youngs modulus times the second moment of area or E*I. Everyone posting so far has been giving only I values. This ignores the exact choice of material. I believe it was Carl who said Yacht-Tech suggested some I values, but without knowing what material they had in mind (the E), we do not know the EI. If they were thinking extruded aluminum, then a steel mast would be much more structurally stiff at the same I. > > > Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 5.75, (I_longit) = 47.6 and (I_trans) = 15.9, weight = 519 LBs > | 23248|23234|2010-05-14 16:54:44|wild_explorer|Re: Tanks - size & weight prediction|Ok Ben, you made me to take calculator again: I will go conservative. Speed 5 knots (instead of 7 kn which require about 5 times more power to move the hull) Diesel engine - 40 Hp. Consumption 0.5 LB-HP-HR. Range 1000 nautical miles: 0.5 lb_hp_hr * 40 hp = 20 lb/hr (1/7.15)* 20 = 2.8 US_Gal/hr 1000 miles / 5 kn=200 hr 200 hr * 2.8 Gal = 560 US_Gal With this engine Boat needs about 560 US_Gal to motor 1000 miles. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > Not so easy with fuel, either: your consumption may vary by a factor of > three depending on how rough the water is. > | 23249|23216|2010-05-14 17:10:04|Paul Wilson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|>>>Yacht-Tech based their calculations on the dimensions of the boat. (OAL, LWL, beam, draft, height above waterline, displacement) This was so they could give me an accurate quote for a "factory" made mast. (you need to know what mast section size to get a real quote) That is a very rough calculation. There are many factors and methods plus the usual fudge factors thrown in. Brent's plans at the time had limited info so I remember trying to do the calculations myself and depending on the method, I got a big variance in the numbers. Having a deck stepped mast versus keel stepped makes a big difference in the numbers as well as whether the mast is double or single spreaders. I used the methods in "Understanding Rigs and Rigging" by Richard Henderson and got numbers varying from 7 to 14 for the transverse moment and about 28 for the longitudinal. The 7 to 14 for was whether it was double or single spreader. This allowed for a safety factor of 2 which is not unreasonable. If you were racing you could cut that number down. I recommend the book if you really want to get into it but the best gauge is walking around a marina and seeing what is on other boats and what seems to be standard practice. Don't you think a 5 inch tube on a 36 foot boat would look awfully small? I do and I still think a 5 inch aluminum tube would be a little whippy. I base this on feeling my 8 inch (fore and aft) aluminum section having a slight pump to it when using a staysail driving into steep waves offshore. With a 5 inch section, I think it would be absolutely critical to use running back stays with the staysail in the same conditions. Cheers, Paul > > | 23250|23216|2010-05-14 17:10:10|Paul Wilson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|This seems about right to me....... Paul wild_explorer wrote: > > May be this information will help: > > Source: http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/5280-cruising.html > > Kenyon Spars 5280 Cruising Mast Section > Moments of inertia: Ixx = 31.70", Iyy = 15.10" > Weight/ft.: 5.20 lbs. > Alloy: 6061-T6 > Standard lengths: 44', 48', 55'6" > Kenyon 5280 Mast Section Common Mast usage: > Alejuela 38; Cal 35*; Contessa 35; Endeavour 35*, 37; Ericson 38, > 380*; Hans Christian 33; Hansa 33; Horizon 39K Main; Hunter 36*, 37**, > 54*; Islander 36*; Lancer 37, Corinthian 41; Lord Nelson 35; Morgan 36 > OI; Orion 35; Roberts 38; Seidelman 37; US-35; > > Looks pretty close to this steel by Ixx and Iyy: > > Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 5.75, (I_longit) = 47.6 > and (I_trans) = 15.9, weight = 519 LBs > > P.S. Too much learning in 1 day for me ;) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Matt Malone > wrote: > > > > In both of these equations, the important term for the cross-section > is Youngs modulus times the second moment of area or E*I. Everyone > posting so far has been giving only I values. This ignores the exact > choice of material. I believe it was Carl who said Yacht-Tech > suggested some I values, but without knowing what material they had in > mind (the E), we do not know the EI. If they were thinking extruded > aluminum, then a steel mast would be much more structurally stiff at > the same I. > > > > > > > Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 5.75, (I_longit) = 47.6 > and (I_trans) = 15.9, weight = 519 LBs > > > > | 23251|23216|2010-05-14 18:50:21|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|It looks like 8x4 rectangular tube does not exist with 0.125" wall. Only 0.188" or 0.25". Plus info on 5" and 6" Sch 40 pipe. http://www.tacomasteel.com/page.php?id=56 5" sch 40 pipe OD=5.563 ID=5.047 wall=0.258 weight=14.62Lbs/ft 6" sch 40 pipe OD=6.625 ID=6.065 wall=0.28 weight=18.97 Rectangle tube 8" x 4" wall=0.18 weight=14.53Lbs/ft Rectangle tube 8" x 4" wall=0.25 weight=19.02 http://www.razienmetals.com/rectangular_tubing.html > > > > Source: http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/5280-cruising.html > > > > > > Looks pretty close to this steel by Ixx and Iyy: > > > > Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 5.75, (I_longit) = 47.6 > > and (I_trans) = 15.9, weight = 519 LBs > > | 23252|23216|2010-05-14 19:31:58|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Sorry to All, I miscalculated Rectangular tube with 0.125" wall (it does not exist anyway with such wall). Correction: Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 2.9, ***** I_1 = 25.2 & I_2 = 8.6 *****, weight = 519 LBs Couple more estimates (now check them please): Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.188, area = 4.37, I_1 = 36.83 & I_2 = 12.43, weight = 773 LBs 6" sch 40 pipe ( OD=6.625 ID=6.065 wall=0.28 weight=18.97Lb/ft) area = 5.58, (I) = 28.1, weight = 987 LBs All weights are for 52ft mast. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > deck stepped mast versus keel stepped makes a big difference in the > numbers as well as whether the mast is double or single spreaders. I > used the methods in "Understanding Rigs and Rigging" by Richard > Henderson and got numbers varying from 7 to 14 for the transverse moment > and about 28 for the longitudinal. The 7 to 14 for was whether it was > double or single spreader. This allowed for a safety factor of 2 which > is not unreasonable. If you were racing you could cut that number down. | 23253|23216|2010-05-14 21:47:48|Paul Wilson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Wild, Don't confuse steel pipe with steel tubing. You wouldn't use Schedule 40 in steel since it is far too thick and heavy. You would only use Schedule 40 pipe in aluminum or perhaps aluminum extruded tube. Sorry to repeat myself, but the "Build Your Own Mast" article is very good.....it also has data on comparing strengths to wooden masts For steel tube data: http://www.steeltubeinstitute.org/pdf/brochures/dimension_brochure.pdf I think you use "I" in the chart for the moments of inertia in the steel tube. 6 inch schedule 40 aluminum pipe, weighs 6.6 pounds/foot has about 28 in(4) moment of inertia "I". (Source for this is the "Build Your Own Mast" article in files section) Steel tube 6 inch, 0.125 wall, weighs 7.85 pounds/foot and has a moment of only 9.3. Steel tube 6 inch, 0.188 wall, weighs 11.68 pounds/foot and has a moment of only 13.5. Commercial mast section (Kenyon 5280) for 36 footer is about 5.2 pounds/foot with moment of 31.7 longitudinal and about 15 transverse. We also need to really look at section modulus "S" which is a function of Elasticity of the material and the moments above. See Matt's previous e-mail as well as the article. 6 inch Schedule 40 aluminum tube S is 8.44 in (3). 6 inch. 0.125 wall steel tube S is 3.09 6 inch, 0.188 wall steel tube S is 4.15 There is no data for "S" for the commercial mast section but lets assume it is about the same as the aluminum tube since it is (obviously) made of aluminum. I will leave it up to someone else to do the figuring on the rectangular steel sections and the aluminum tube extrusions. The 40 footer may be a different story, again. If we are talking round tube, it looks to me that Sch 40 aluminum pipe is much stronger and much lighter in the sizes available for the 36 footer than the steel tubes. I am not a structural engineer. Am I missing something? Time for Brent to jump in...... Paul . wild_explorer wrote: > > It looks like 8x4 rectangular tube does not exist with 0.125" wall. > Only 0.188" or 0.25". Plus info on 5" and 6" Sch 40 pipe. > > http://www.tacomasteel.com/page.php?id=56 > > 5" sch 40 pipe OD=5.563 ID=5.047 wall=0.258 weight=14.62Lbs/ft > > 6" sch 40 pipe OD=6.625 ID=6.065 wall=0.28 weight=18.97 > > Rectangle tube 8" x 4" wall=0.18 weight=14.53Lbs/ft > Rectangle tube 8" x 4" wall=0.25 weight=19.02 > > http://www.razienmetals.com/rectangular_tubing.html > > > > > > > Source: http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/5280-cruising.html > > > > > > > > > > Looks pretty close to this steel by Ixx and Iyy: > > > > > > Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 5.75, (I_longit) = 47.6 > > > and (I_trans) = 15.9, weight = 519 LBs > > > > > | 23254|23216|2010-05-14 22:51:35|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Paul, thank you for all this excellent information. Before yesterday I had no idea I need to look for all this numbers I, S, etc. Reading "Build Your Own Mast" made me think. As well I did not know there is the difference between tube and pipe. Will take a look into it. This group helps a lot. I am back to "research mode" to digest all this information. I think, main criteria for the mast should be positive bouncy (even if it will need to use bigger cross section & weight). It will not make sense to go for lighter mast with negative bouncy. Thanks to All! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Wild, > > Don't confuse steel pipe with steel tubing. You wouldn't use Schedule 40 > in steel since it is far too thick and heavy. You would only use > Schedule 40 pipe in aluminum or perhaps aluminum extruded tube. > Sorry to repeat myself, but the "Build Your Own Mast" article is very > good.....it also has data on comparing strengths to wooden masts > > For steel tube data: > http://www.steeltubeinstitute.org/pdf/brochures/dimension_brochure.pdf > | 23255|23216|2010-05-15 01:10:51|Paul Wilson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|No problem. I would forget about worrying about buoyancy. Any mast you are likely to use, if sealed, should float. If one day you are unlucky enough to roll over, the mast may not stay up anyway. Cheers, Paul wild_explorer wrote: > > Paul, thank you for all this excellent information. Before yesterday I > had no idea I need to look for all this numbers I, S, etc. Reading > "Build Your Own Mast" made me think. As well I did not know there is > the difference between tube and pipe. Will take a look into it. This > group helps a lot. I am back to "research mode" to digest all this > information. > > I think, main criteria for the mast should be positive bouncy (even if > it will need to use bigger cross section & weight). It will not make > sense to go for lighter mast with negative bouncy. > > Thanks to All! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Wild, > > > > Don't confuse steel pipe with steel tubing. You wouldn't use > Schedule 40 > > in steel since it is far too thick and heavy. You would only use > > Schedule 40 pipe in aluminum or perhaps aluminum extruded tube. > > Sorry to repeat myself, but the "Build Your Own Mast" article is very > > good.....it also has data on comparing strengths to wooden masts > > > > For steel tube data: > > http://www.steeltubeinstitute.org/pdf/brochures/dimension_brochure.pdf > > > > | 23256|23216|2010-05-15 01:32:47|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|You are soooo right, Paul. And the surface tension on a submeeged sail is BIG. Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Wilson Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 17:10:41 To: Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. No problem. I would forget about worrying about buoyancy. Any mast you are likely to use, if sealed, should float. If one day you are unlucky enough to roll over, the mast may not stay up anyway. Cheers, Paul wild_explorer wrote: > > Paul, thank you for all this excellent information. Before yesterday I > had no idea I need to look for all this numbers I, S, etc. Reading > "Build Your Own Mast" made me think. As well I did not know there is > the difference between tube and pipe. Will take a look into it. This > group helps a lot. I am back to "research mode" to digest all this > information. > > I think, main criteria for the mast should be positive bouncy (even if > it will need to use bigger cross section & weight). It will not make > sense to go for lighter mast with negative bouncy. > > Thanks to All! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Wild, > > > > Don't confuse steel pipe with steel tubing. You wouldn't use > Schedule 40 > > in steel since it is far too thick and heavy. You would only use > > Schedule 40 pipe in aluminum or perhaps aluminum extruded tube. > > Sorry to repeat myself, but the "Build Your Own Mast" article is very > > good.....it also has data on comparing strengths to wooden masts > > > > For steel tube data: > > http://www.steeltubeinstitute.org/pdf/brochures/dimension_brochure.pdf > > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links| 23257|23216|2010-05-15 02:15:37|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Brain food for tomorrow: After rereading - "Build your own mast" - post # 22957 - link in post # 23244 In "Building your own mast" the recommended conversion from wood mast to aluminum uses coefficients I(alum)= I(wood)x0.14 and S(alum)=S(wood)x 0.05. Different for another wood 0.18, 0.06 So, for wood was I=255, S=60. Result for aluminum I=35.7, S=3. Which gives me an idea, that for STEEL I and S will be even lower (stronger material). As you see, I and S numbers are lower, but it gives the same strength for the mast. Question: What coefficients need to use to convert I and S numbers from aluminum to steel? P.S. Well, If displacement of the mast is lower than its weight, it will NOT float (even sealed) - no reserve buoyancy left. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > No problem. I would forget about worrying about buoyancy. Any mast you > are likely to use, if sealed, should float. If one day you are unlucky > enough to roll over, the mast may not stay up anyway. > > Cheers, Paul | 23258|23258|2010-05-15 08:12:49|rhko47|stern tube construction|What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and partially or completely filling the space with marine grease?| 23259|23216|2010-05-15 10:20:49|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Some theoretical information which could be useful for mast calculation subject: http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Mechanics/Struts.html Has some information for wood and steel. Explains where 0.7L instead of L came from in Eulers Theory (mentioned in post # 22957). I think, we need help of structural engineer here. According information in the article (link in post # 23244) it looks like conversion coefficient for I (moment of inertia) from Aluminum to Steel is about 0.33-0.35. Please CHECK - NOT SURE ABOUT IT.| 23260|23216|2010-05-15 12:07:56|Carl Anderson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|I'm glad that the mastmaker made mine out of 6" sch 40 aluminum pipe! Carl sv-mom.com Paul Wilson wrote: > Wild, > > Don't confuse steel pipe with steel tubing. You wouldn't use Schedule 40 > in steel since it is far too thick and heavy. You would only use > Schedule 40 pipe in aluminum or perhaps aluminum extruded tube. > Sorry to repeat myself, but the "Build Your Own Mast" article is very > good.....it also has data on comparing strengths to wooden masts > > For steel tube data: > http://www.steeltubeinstitute.org/pdf/brochures/dimension_brochure.pdf > > I think you use "I" in the chart for the moments of inertia in the steel > tube. > > 6 inch schedule 40 aluminum pipe, weighs 6.6 pounds/foot has about 28 > in(4) moment of inertia "I". (Source for this is the "Build Your Own > Mast" article in files section) > Steel tube 6 inch, 0.125 wall, weighs 7.85 pounds/foot and has a moment > of only 9.3. > Steel tube 6 inch, 0.188 wall, weighs 11.68 pounds/foot and has a moment > of only 13.5. > Commercial mast section (Kenyon 5280) for 36 footer is about 5.2 > pounds/foot with moment of 31.7 longitudinal and about 15 transverse. > > We also need to really look at section modulus "S" which is a function > of Elasticity of the material and the moments above. See Matt's previous > e-mail as well as the article. > > 6 inch Schedule 40 aluminum tube S is 8.44 in (3). > 6 inch. 0.125 wall steel tube S is 3.09 > 6 inch, 0.188 wall steel tube S is 4.15 > There is no data for "S" for the commercial mast section but lets assume > it is about the same as the aluminum tube since it is (obviously) made > of aluminum. > > I will leave it up to someone else to do the figuring on the rectangular > steel sections and the aluminum tube extrusions. The 40 footer may be a > different story, again. > > If we are talking round tube, it looks to me that Sch 40 aluminum pipe > is much stronger and much lighter in the sizes available for the 36 > footer than the steel tubes. I am not a structural engineer. Am I > missing something? > > Time for Brent to jump in...... > > Paul > . > wild_explorer wrote: >> It looks like 8x4 rectangular tube does not exist with 0.125" wall. >> Only 0.188" or 0.25". Plus info on 5" and 6" Sch 40 pipe. >> >> http://www.tacomasteel.com/page.php?id=56 >> >> 5" sch 40 pipe OD=5.563 ID=5.047 wall=0.258 weight=14.62Lbs/ft >> >> 6" sch 40 pipe OD=6.625 ID=6.065 wall=0.28 weight=18.97 >> >> Rectangle tube 8" x 4" wall=0.18 weight=14.53Lbs/ft >> Rectangle tube 8" x 4" wall=0.25 weight=19.02 >> >> http://www.razienmetals.com/rectangular_tubing.html >> >>>> Source: http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/5280-cruising.html >>>> >>>> Looks pretty close to this steel by Ixx and Iyy: >>>> >>>> Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 5.75, (I_longit) = 47.6 >>>> and (I_trans) = 15.9, weight = 519 LBs >>>> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 23261|23258|2010-05-15 12:11:49|Carl Anderson|Re: stern tube construction|I would use 2" sch 80 stainless steel pipe (316 is essential for this) with the aft end machined out so a commercially available cutlass bearing will fit inside of it. Carl sv-mom.com rhko47 wrote: > > > What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel shaft > bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't galvanic > corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain steel, what > will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside (How?), what paint > should be used, and does it need to be renewed periodically? Will marine > growth inside the stern tube be a problem? Would there be any advantage > to inserting a grease fitting and partially or completely filling the > space with marine grease? > > | 23262|23216|2010-05-15 15:50:51|kingsknight4life|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I'm glad that the mastmaker made mine out of 6" sch 40 aluminum pipe! > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > Carl I think that was a wise choice. While 15"^4 is fine for transverse moments I think 30 is needed for fore and aft "strength". I know the mast that Mickey had made up was 6" too. I think I'll keep looking for a 6" tube. BTW thanks for the lead on the rigging vice. Rowland| 23263|23216|2010-05-15 16:18:10|Norm Moore|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|"Explains where 0.7L instead of L came from in Eulers Theory (mentioned in post # 22957)." In a word - no. The 0.7L mentioned in my post # 22957 comes from S. Timoshenko's Theory of Elastic Stability and the reference for it was given in Tom Colvin's Steel Boat Building Vol. 2 pg. 92. It's based on the elastic properties of steel in column. I would use it to calculate a safety factor range should the load on an available diameter steel tube exceed the standard calculation using justL. Since it's based on the material properties of steel it can be used for a deck stepped mast in pin/pin arrangement or a fixed/pin for a keel stepped mast. Metal masts bend then buckle, wooden masts bend and then break. A fixed/pin mast resists bending because it's supported part way along its length by the deck, which is why the reference you supplied shows the change to 0.7L for fixed/pin columns which doubles the strength for all materials aluminum and wood also. I for a solid round spar is based on the outside diameter to the fourth power. (I for oval shapes, like extruded aluminum masts, will have different values for longitudinal and transverse loading, and need to be obtained from the manufacturer.) The only variable in the equation for I in round spars is diameter or outside and inside diameter. I for a hollow spar is based on the difference of the outside and inside diameters, each taken to the fourth power before being subtracted from each other then multiplied by pi. The difference in I for aluminum and steel is based on the difference between thin steel tubing and thick aluminum pipe. For hollow wooden spars it will vary based on the material thickness selected. Norm Moore 559-645-5314 ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, May 15, 2010 7:15:42 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. Some theoretical information which could be useful for mast calculation subject: http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Mechanics/Struts.html Has some information for wood and steel. Explains where 0.7L instead of L came from in Eulers Theory (mentioned in post # 22957). I think, we need help of structural engineer here. According information in the article (link in post # 23244) it looks like conversion coefficient for I (moment of inertia) from Aluminum to Steel is about 0.33-0.35. Please CHECK - NOT SURE ABOUT IT. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23264|23258|2010-05-15 22:06:08|Gord Schnell|Re: stern tube construction|I made my sterntube of shed 80 "plain steel". Given that it is "intimately" bonded to the steel skeg and hull, that should be its' charge potential voltage anyway. The bearing is of bronze (and rubber) and the propshaft is SS. The prop has not yet been chosen, but I expect it will be SS. The propshaft does not physically contact any metal except at the transmission end (all steel), but the seawater contacts all of these components. Filling the sterntube with grease will exclude the seawater from the inside of the sterntube and paint coatings will, hopefully, isolated all the external steel components. That only leaves the saltwater to electrically connect the prop, propshaft and zincs. I expect the zincs will be the sacrificial material and they will "sacrifice" at a higher rate. Filling the sterntube with grease sounds like a n excellent "insurance policy". Comments please. Gord On 15-May-10, at 5:08 AM, rhko47 wrote: > What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel > shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't > galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain > steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside > (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed > periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? > Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and > partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23265|23216|2010-05-15 22:38:32|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Thanks Norm for clarifying your post and providing theoretical information on the subject. Very helpful. It looks like, coefficient for conversion I(moment of inertia) from aluminum to steel is 0.3398. But I believe it is for compression load only. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > "Explains where 0.7L instead of L came from in Eulers Theory (mentioned > in post # 22957)." > > In a word - no. > > The 0.7L mentioned > in my post # 22957 comes from S. Timoshenko's Theory of Elastic Stability and the reference for it was given in Tom Colvin's Steel Boat Building Vol. 2 pg. 92. It's based on the elastic properties of steel in column. I would use it to calculate a safety factor range should the load on an available diameter steel tube exceed the standard calculation using justL. Since it's based on the material properties of steel it can be used for a deck stepped mast in pin/pin arrangement or a fixed/pin for a keel stepped mast. Metal masts bend then buckle, wooden masts bend and then break. A fixed/pin mast resists bending because it's supported part way along its length by the deck, which is why the reference you supplied shows the change to 0.7L for fixed/pin columns which doubles the strength for all materials aluminum and wood also. > > I for a solid round spar is based on the outside diameter to the fourth power. (I for oval shapes, like extruded aluminum masts, will have different values for longitudinal and transverse loading, and need to be obtained from the manufacturer.) The only variable in the equation for I in round spars is diameter or outside and inside diameter. I for a hollow spar is based on the difference of the outside and inside diameters, each taken to the fourth power before being subtracted from each other then multiplied by pi. The difference in I for aluminum and steel is based on the difference between thin steel tubing and thick aluminum pipe. For hollow wooden spars it will vary based on the material thickness selected. > > Norm Moore > 559-645-5314 | 23266|23258|2010-05-15 23:18:30|David Frantz|Re: stern tube construction|Depends upon the grease. I would expect most greases to wash out fairly quickly. Think about the axial of a vehical that has to cross deep water. The standard suggestion is to relube immediately after. At least that is my view. It might be better to fill with epoxy if you can clean it good enough to get good bondage. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On May 15, 2010, at 10:06 PM, Gord Schnell wrote: > I made my sterntube of shed 80 "plain steel". Given that it is > "intimately" bonded to the steel skeg and hull, that should be its' > charge potential voltage anyway. The bearing is of bronze (and > rubber) and the propshaft is SS. The prop has not yet been chosen, but > I expect it will be SS. > The propshaft does not physically contact any metal except at the > transmission end (all steel), but the seawater contacts all of these > components. Filling the sterntube with grease will exclude the > seawater from the inside of the sterntube and paint coatings will, > hopefully, isolated all the external steel components. That only > leaves the saltwater to electrically connect the prop, propshaft and > zincs. I expect the zincs will be the sacrificial material and they > will "sacrifice" at a higher rate. > Filling the sterntube with grease sounds like a n excellent "insurance > policy". > Comments please. > Gord > On 15-May-10, at 5:08 AM, rhko47 wrote: > >> What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel >> shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't >> galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain >> steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside >> (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed >> periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? >> Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and >> partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? >> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23267|23258|2010-05-16 00:00:10|Paul Wilson|Re: stern tube construction|Most cutless bearings and packings I know of rely on water for lubrication and cooling. Filling with grease may screw them up. I would only put a thin swipe of lanacote or something similar on the shaft. I have seen scale on prop shafts inside a stern tube but fouling from growth is not normally a problem. For barnacles or growth to occur, they need sunlight. My prop shaft is stainless with a painted, thick-walled steel stern tube. Electrolysis or growth has never been a problem. Cheers, Paul David Frantz wrote: > > Depends upon the grease. I would expect most greases to wash out > fairly quickly. Think about the axial of a vehical that has to > cross deep water. The standard suggestion is to relube immediately > after. > > At least that is my view. It might be better to fill with epoxy if > you can clean it good enough to get good bondage. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On May 15, 2010, at 10:06 PM, Gord Schnell > wrote: > > > I made my sterntube of shed 80 "plain steel". Given that it is > > "intimately" bonded to the steel skeg and hull, that should be its' > > charge potential voltage anyway. The bearing is of bronze (and > > rubber) and the propshaft is SS. The prop has not yet been chosen, but > > I expect it will be SS. > > The propshaft does not physically contact any metal except at the > > transmission end (all steel), but the seawater contacts all of these > > components. Filling the sterntube with grease will exclude the > > seawater from the inside of the sterntube and paint coatings will, > > hopefully, isolated all the external steel components. That only > > leaves the saltwater to electrically connect the prop, propshaft and > > zincs. I expect the zincs will be the sacrificial material and they > > will "sacrifice" at a higher rate. > > Filling the sterntube with grease sounds like a n excellent "insurance > > policy". > > Comments please. > > Gord > > On 15-May-10, at 5:08 AM, rhko47 wrote: > > > >> What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel > >> shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't > >> galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain > >> steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside > >> (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed > >> periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? > >> Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and > >> partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 23268|23258|2010-05-16 08:31:31|Ben Okopnik|Re: stern tube construction|On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 04:00:04PM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > Most cutless bearings and packings I know of rely on water for > lubrication and cooling. Filling with grease may screw them up. The original setup in "Ulysses" was a stern tube that was only a little bigger in ID than the propshaft, and had three small metal pipes plumbed into it from the top, which were connected to the outlet of a screw-driven grease pump. I'd give that pump a half a turn every once so often, and a little grease would squeeze out of the forward end of the stern tube; that was it. There was no packing gland; the grease packed the space around the shaft and prevented any water coming in. The aft end was supported by a cutless bearing, which never registered a complaint that I know of. :) Later on, when I had to do a whole bunch of work in that area, I replaced the stern tube and put a PSS shaft seal on it. Haven't had to think about it since. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23269|23258|2010-05-16 09:32:45|martin demers|Re: stern tube construction|Ben, Do you still use grease with the PSS set-up? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 08:30:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stern tube construction On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 04:00:04PM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > Most cutless bearings and packings I know of rely on water for > lubrication and cooling. Filling with grease may screw them up. The original setup in "Ulysses" was a stern tube that was only a little bigger in ID than the propshaft, and had three small metal pipes plumbed into it from the top, which were connected to the outlet of a screw-driven grease pump. I'd give that pump a half a turn every once so often, and a little grease would squeeze out of the forward end of the stern tube; that was it. There was no packing gland; the grease packed the space around the shaft and prevented any water coming in. The aft end was supported by a cutless bearing, which never registered a complaint that I know of. :) Later on, when I had to do a whole bunch of work in that area, I replaced the stern tube and put a PSS shaft seal on it. Haven't had to think about it since. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com _________________________________________________________________ Gagnez 10 000 $ avec Hotmail! Participez ici. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729718 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23270|23216|2010-05-16 09:42:34|martin demers|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Paul, I will make my sails myself. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 12:39:17 +1200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel mast for 40 footer. It probably won't be lighter when you take in to account the weight of the gaff. Also, using a gaff makes it much harder to find used sails that will fit. Paul martin demers wrote: > I am considering gaff rig for my boat, despiter what some have to say about it, it would allow me to use a shorter mast wich would lower the weigh height. > > > _________________________________________________________________ 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23271|23216|2010-05-16 09:46:41|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Matt, Paul. Please check this information: I the example of production mast ( http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/5280-cruising.html ), Ixx=31.7 & Iyy=15.1 Using coefficient for conversion I(moment of inertia) from aluminum to steel = 0.3398, I got equivalent for steel Ixx=10.77 & Iyy=5.13 Closest reasonable match I could find in document provided by Paul ( http://www.steeltubeinstitute.org/pdf/brochures/dimension_brochure.pdf ) is; 6"x4"x1/8"(0.116) Tube with: Ixx=11.4 [Sx=3.81], Iyy=6.15 [Sx=3.08], it has: Weight=8.16 lb/ft, Displacement 10.66 lb/ft, Reserved buoyancy 2.5 lb/ft For 52' mast Reserved buoyancy = 130 Lb ******************************* More detailed calculations on load capacity could be done here: http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/section_square_case_10.htm http://www.tech.plymouth.ac.uk/sme/desnotes/BucklingB.htm Steel: Young's mod. E = 206 GPa, Yield Strength = 250 MPa Aluminum: Young's mod. E = 70 GPa, Yield Strength = 400 MPa ********************************** --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > All good questions... that I am working on also. I have never designed a mast before but am considering my options. The two formuli that seem important are bending and buckling. Wikipedia gives a good explanation of both: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bending > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckling > > > > In both of these equations, the important term for the cross-section is Youngs modulus times the second moment of area or E*I. Everyone posting so far has been giving only I values. This ignores the exact choice of material. I believe it was Carl who said Yacht-Tech suggested some I values, but without knowing what material they had in mind (the E), we do not know the EI. If they were thinking extruded aluminum, then a steel mast would be much more structurally stiff at the same I. > > > > A mast has both bending and buckling at the same time, which I have yet to see a readily available formula for. As an experiment, take a metal meter stick, stand it up and push down on it like a column with your thumb. Then do it again, but this time press laterally about halfway down with your finger on the other hand-- buckles more easily. A main sail going to weather creates a large suction that is both lateral and forward. As the boat heels, the righting moment from the heel of the boat balances the moment caused by the wind on the sail and the boat stands stably at a heel angle. With a deck-stepped mast (or a keel-stepped one where the doghouse does not press laterally on the mast), this moment is carried up into the mast by additional tension on the weather side, and less tension on the leeway side of the standing rigging. The low angle at which the standing rigging comes together at the top of the mast causes a compressive force downward on the mast which is important for buckling. The side forces from the sail, translated to the mast, all the way up the mast, cause the mast to experience bending. One must examine these forces together to see if the bending of the mast is acceptably small, and there is no danger of buckling, and there is no danger of exceeding the strength of the mast (three separate tests I can think of off the top of my head).... > > > > Add to this that spreaders assist to reduce compression, and improve lateral bending resistance, but do nothing to help forward-aft bending. > > > > I think it would be more efficient for a layman not to speak of moments of inertia or anything else, and find someone who is using a steel pipe as a mast. Find their sail areas, spreader configurations, and boat size, go sailing with them in some heavy stuff, and see what you think of their mast's performance. > > > > One layman's trick: When something is close to a buckling failure, its frequency of vibration goes to zero (try this with the metal meter-stick). Tap the mast with a rubber hammer in port and again when it is really pulling to weather. You should notice a difference in pitch because of the added compressive load. You can also do this by changing the tension in the standing rigging -- tighter standing rigging vibrates, like a guitar-string, at a higher frequency as you add tension, the mast will vibrate at a lower frequency with the added compression -- this of course is just to see the effect, one generally loosens the rig to reduce standing compression in the mast. > > > > How much is a lot? Well an octave difference between port and pulling hard is a lot. Octave = 1/2 the frequency, which is half the stiffness, and when lateral stiffness goes to zero, the column buckles, so, an octave is half way to failing, it seems, but, this is not a factor of 2 safety ! Buckling is odd. Small defects to a perfect structure can drastically change its buckling strength. All the attachments and rigging points are potentially just such problems. Also, the mast can experience a local buckling, wrinkle and fold. So, I would look for a detectable (indicating not grossly over-designed) but small change in pitch between port and pulling hard to weather. > > Then I would be inclined to copy their rig. > > > > EI is not the end of the story however. If we keep the EI constant, but reduce the E of the material then we end up with a mast with a higher I. A higher I, maybe from using a thicker wall in aluminum than one would in steel, really changes the failure level for a face-wrinkling failure leading to buckling. > > > > I have looked at steel pipe, and I am toying with the idea of a wood pole right now. I have not ruled out an aluminum extrusion right now, but that is like $5,000 just for the extrusion for the mast. When I was considering steel pipe, I was also considering having the entire thing galvanized. I am far from making a mast decision, atm. > > > > Matt > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 18:34:24 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. > > > > > > Make sense... What is unclear to me, how to choose Moment of inertia for the mast? It will make the difference. This is an example for different shapes for 52' mast: > > Round tube: OD=6", ID=5.75", Wall = 0.125, area = 2.3, Moment if inertia (I) = 9.94, weight = 407 LBs > > Square tube: Exterior side=6", Interior side=5.75", Wall = 0.125, area = 2.4, (I) = 16.9, , weight = 519 LBs > > Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 5.75, (I_longit) = 47.6 and (I_trans) = 15.9, weight = 519 LBs > > But to bring round shape to the same I ~ 17 will require 0.225" wall > Round tube: OD=6", ID=5.55", Wall = 0.225, area = 4.08, (I) = 17.01, weight = 722 LBs > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > If you run the computations of E*I vs weight, you will find that a round or oval tube gives slightly better mechanical properties for the same weight, or lower weight for the same properties. Also, airflow around the leading edge and onto the sail is better on a round-er cross-section. The airflow can be improved by fairing the section (adding stuff to make it round-er. It is the leeward side of the mast going upwind that will contribute to the flow remaining attached to the sail, or the flow separating. When they flow remains attached, you get better suction, and more efficient sail performance. I would suspect that your minimum pointing angle to the wind would be substantially increased with a square section mast. For down-wind sailing, I cannot see how square vs. round really matters for airflow. > > > > > > > > I think in the end, your choice will be more constrained by availability, both in what sizes and shapes are manufactured, and what you might be able to get your hands on easily at a reasonable price. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: williswildest@ > > Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:31:07 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any advantages/disadvantages of rectangle tube mast vs. round tube mast? (Weight/needed_directional_strength ratio) > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23272|23272|2010-05-16 09:57:32|SHANE ROTHWELL|Stern tube construction|Used to have a simple cheap grease gun mounted to a bulkhead in the cockpit, in a deck locker that could be reached & easily operated from the helm with an extra long hose on it. Into the stuffing box we drilled & tapped threads to take the other end of the grease hose. Pump the sucker full of grease and give it a shot every hour of operation. Never a problem. Also, marine grease or underwater grease whatever you want to call it, is expensive. Just use regular grease, it's being replaced often enuf and the steal, whatever it is, won't know the differance. Then again, by excluding oxygen from the stainless, will that not cause crevice corrosion over time??? Or do the zink's deal with that? cheers, Shane stern tube construction Posted by: "rhko47" rhko47@... rhko47 Sat May 15, 2010 5:12 am (PDT) What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and partially or completely filling the space with marine grease?| 23273|23258|2010-05-16 10:07:13|Ben Okopnik|Re: stern tube construction|On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 09:32:19AM -0400, martin demers wrote: > > Ben, > Do you still use grease with the PSS set-up? No, the PSS is an "install-and-forget" type of system. I've had it on two of my boats so far, and it's one of the very few things that I see as being perfectly designed for the job that it's supposed to do. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23274|23258|2010-05-16 12:53:54|martin demers|Re: stern tube construction|If with the PSS you came back having water in the stern tube that doesn't solved the possibility of rust in the tube. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 10:06:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stern tube construction On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 09:32:19AM -0400, martin demers wrote: > > Ben, > Do you still use grease with the PSS set-up? No, the PSS is an "install-and-forget" type of system. I've had it on two of my boats so far, and it's one of the very few things that I see as being perfectly designed for the job that it's supposed to do. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com _________________________________________________________________ 30 jours de prix : Hotmail vous simplifie la vie! Inscrivez-vous! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729719 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23275|23272|2010-05-16 13:05:07|martin demers|Re: Stern tube construction|If the shaft turn in a tube full of grease dont that add too much friction even if it is grease(because of the lenght of the tube)? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: rockrothwell@... Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 06:57:09 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Stern tube construction Used to have a simple cheap grease gun mounted to a bulkhead in the cockpit, in a deck locker that could be reached & easily operated from the helm with an extra long hose on it. Into the stuffing box we drilled & tapped threads to take the other end of the grease hose. Pump the sucker full of grease and give it a shot every hour of operation. Never a problem. Also, marine grease or underwater grease whatever you want to call it, is expensive. Just use regular grease, it's being replaced often enuf and the steal, whatever it is, won't know the differance. Then again, by excluding oxygen from the stainless, will that not cause crevice corrosion over time??? Or do the zink's deal with that? cheers, Shane stern tube construction Posted by: "rhko47" rhko47@... rhko47 Sat May 15, 2010 5:12 am (PDT) What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? _________________________________________________________________ 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23276|23272|2010-05-16 14:37:46|theboilerflue|Re: Stern tube construction|I have a Lathdrop dripless shaft seal so far have had no complaints with it. No grease just an air vent coming out of the forward end of the tube brought above the water line, I guess this is to facilitate water coming up to it to cool it. I was under the impression that steel didn't really rust much under the water line as long as it's well zinc'ed I figure the zinc on the SS shaft ought to do it even though it's got a bronze prop attached to it. I also have a switch to disconnect the negative ground from the engine/shaft when I'm not using it. So far the zinc looks pretty good, not brand new but not missing large chunks either. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > If the shaft turn in a tube full of grease dont that add too much friction even if it is grease(because of the lenght of the tube)? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: rockrothwell@... > Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 06:57:09 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Stern tube construction > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Used to have a simple cheap grease gun mounted to a bulkhead in the cockpit, in a deck locker that could be reached & easily operated from the helm with an extra long hose on it. Into the stuffing box we drilled & tapped threads to take the other end of the grease hose. Pump the sucker full of grease and give it a shot every hour of operation. Never a problem. > > > > Also, marine grease or underwater grease whatever you want to call it, is expensive. Just use regular grease, it's being replaced often enuf and the steal, whatever it is, won't know the differance. > > > > Then again, by excluding oxygen from the stainless, will that not cause crevice corrosion over time??? Or do the zink's deal with that? > > > > cheers, > > Shane > > > > stern tube construction > > Posted by: "rhko47" rhko47@... rhko47 > > Sat May 15, 2010 5:12 am (PDT) > > > > What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23277|23272|2010-05-16 18:23:06|brentswain38|Re: Stern tube construction|Those with the super soft Yanmar engine mounts had heat buildup problems, with grease in the tube, those with more solid mounts have had no problems, in decades of use. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > If the shaft turn in a tube full of grease dont that add too much friction even if it is grease(because of the lenght of the tube)? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: rockrothwell@... > Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 06:57:09 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Stern tube construction > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Used to have a simple cheap grease gun mounted to a bulkhead in the cockpit, in a deck locker that could be reached & easily operated from the helm with an extra long hose on it. Into the stuffing box we drilled & tapped threads to take the other end of the grease hose. Pump the sucker full of grease and give it a shot every hour of operation. Never a problem. > > > > Also, marine grease or underwater grease whatever you want to call it, is expensive. Just use regular grease, it's being replaced often enuf and the steal, whatever it is, won't know the differance. > > > > Then again, by excluding oxygen from the stainless, will that not cause crevice corrosion over time??? Or do the zink's deal with that? > > > > cheers, > > Shane > > > > stern tube construction > > Posted by: "rhko47" rhko47@... rhko47 > > Sat May 15, 2010 5:12 am (PDT) > > > > What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23278|23216|2010-05-16 18:27:28|brentswain38|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Used sails, in almost new condition, are available from most boaters exchanges, for a fraction the cost of materials alone. Making sails from scratch is a horrendous amount of work.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Paul, > I will make my sails myself. > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 12:39:17 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel mast for 40 footer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It probably won't be lighter when you take in to account the weight of > > the gaff. Also, using a gaff makes it much harder to find used sails > > that will fit. > > > > Paul > > > > martin demers wrote: > > > I am considering gaff rig for my boat, despiter what some have to say about it, it would allow me to use a shorter mast wich would lower the weigh height. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23279|23258|2010-05-16 18:40:40|brentswain38|Re: stern tube construction|I used to use stainless for stern tubes, until several corroded out from oxygen starvation. Now I use mild steel. Filling the stern tube with grease eliminates corrosion on the steel . If the spinning shaft throws the grease off, it won't remove it from the tube. There is no need for a grease nipple , just tap the tube for a 1/8th pipe thread and thread the end of the grease gun hose onto it. You can connect several grease hoses together, to get enough length to permanently mount the grease gun in a convenient place. All grease gun hoses have a 1/8th sch 40 thread on their ends. Just use 1/8th pipe couplers. Give her a few strokes from time to time. I have had this setup for the last 25 years, and have had no problems with it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rhko47" wrote: > > What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > | 23280|23272|2010-05-16 18:45:09|brentswain38|Re: Stern tube construction|I have never had to machine a stern tube. Bearings come in any OD you want, or a shim around it will make up any difference. My current one is in a sleeve, with a flange on the end, which lets me tap it out and replace the bearing, with the boat still in the water. Putting a size bigger pipe where it goes thru the aperture , then welding the smaller stern tube inside , eliminates the welding distortion problem around the tube, where the bearing fits in. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Those with the super soft Yanmar engine mounts had heat buildup problems, with grease in the tube, those with more solid mounts have had no problems, in decades of use. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > If the shaft turn in a tube full of grease dont that add too much friction even if it is grease(because of the lenght of the tube)? > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: rockrothwell@ > > Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 06:57:09 -0700 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Stern tube construction > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Used to have a simple cheap grease gun mounted to a bulkhead in the cockpit, in a deck locker that could be reached & easily operated from the helm with an extra long hose on it. Into the stuffing box we drilled & tapped threads to take the other end of the grease hose. Pump the sucker full of grease and give it a shot every hour of operation. Never a problem. > > > > > > > > Also, marine grease or underwater grease whatever you want to call it, is expensive. Just use regular grease, it's being replaced often enuf and the steal, whatever it is, won't know the differance. > > > > > > > > Then again, by excluding oxygen from the stainless, will that not cause crevice corrosion over time??? Or do the zink's deal with that? > > > > > > > > cheers, > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > stern tube construction > > > > Posted by: "rhko47" rhko47@ rhko47 > > > > Sat May 15, 2010 5:12 am (PDT) > > > > > > > > What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 23281|23216|2010-05-16 18:46:00|brentswain38|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Production aluminium masts are horrendously expensive, compared to aluminium pipe. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Matt, Paul. Please check this information: > > I the example of production mast ( http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/5280-cruising.html ), Ixx=31.7 & Iyy=15.1 > > Using coefficient for conversion I(moment of inertia) from aluminum to > steel = 0.3398, I got equivalent for steel Ixx=10.77 & Iyy=5.13 > > Closest reasonable match I could find in document provided by Paul ( http://www.steeltubeinstitute.org/pdf/brochures/dimension_brochure.pdf ) is; > > 6"x4"x1/8"(0.116) Tube with: > Ixx=11.4 [Sx=3.81], Iyy=6.15 [Sx=3.08], > > it has: > Weight=8.16 lb/ft, > Displacement 10.66 lb/ft, > Reserved buoyancy 2.5 lb/ft > > For 52' mast Reserved buoyancy = 130 Lb > > ******************************* > More detailed calculations on load capacity could be done here: > > http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/section_square_case_10.htm > http://www.tech.plymouth.ac.uk/sme/desnotes/BucklingB.htm > > Steel: Young's mod. E = 206 GPa, Yield Strength = 250 MPa > Aluminum: Young's mod. E = 70 GPa, Yield Strength = 400 MPa > ********************************** > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > All good questions... that I am working on also. I have never designed a mast before but am considering my options. The two formuli that seem important are bending and buckling. Wikipedia gives a good explanation of both: > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bending > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckling > > > > > > > > In both of these equations, the important term for the cross-section is Youngs modulus times the second moment of area or E*I. Everyone posting so far has been giving only I values. This ignores the exact choice of material. I believe it was Carl who said Yacht-Tech suggested some I values, but without knowing what material they had in mind (the E), we do not know the EI. If they were thinking extruded aluminum, then a steel mast would be much more structurally stiff at the same I. > > > > > > > > A mast has both bending and buckling at the same time, which I have yet to see a readily available formula for. As an experiment, take a metal meter stick, stand it up and push down on it like a column with your thumb. Then do it again, but this time press laterally about halfway down with your finger on the other hand-- buckles more easily. A main sail going to weather creates a large suction that is both lateral and forward. As the boat heels, the righting moment from the heel of the boat balances the moment caused by the wind on the sail and the boat stands stably at a heel angle. With a deck-stepped mast (or a keel-stepped one where the doghouse does not press laterally on the mast), this moment is carried up into the mast by additional tension on the weather side, and less tension on the leeway side of the standing rigging. The low angle at which the standing rigging comes together at the top of the mast causes a compressive force downward on the mast which is important for buckling. The side forces from the sail, translated to the mast, all the way up the mast, cause the mast to experience bending. One must examine these forces together to see if the bending of the mast is acceptably small, and there is no danger of buckling, and there is no danger of exceeding the strength of the mast (three separate tests I can think of off the top of my head).... > > > > > > > > Add to this that spreaders assist to reduce compression, and improve lateral bending resistance, but do nothing to help forward-aft bending. > > > > > > > > I think it would be more efficient for a layman not to speak of moments of inertia or anything else, and find someone who is using a steel pipe as a mast. Find their sail areas, spreader configurations, and boat size, go sailing with them in some heavy stuff, and see what you think of their mast's performance. > > > > > > > > One layman's trick: When something is close to a buckling failure, its frequency of vibration goes to zero (try this with the metal meter-stick). Tap the mast with a rubber hammer in port and again when it is really pulling to weather. You should notice a difference in pitch because of the added compressive load. You can also do this by changing the tension in the standing rigging -- tighter standing rigging vibrates, like a guitar-string, at a higher frequency as you add tension, the mast will vibrate at a lower frequency with the added compression -- this of course is just to see the effect, one generally loosens the rig to reduce standing compression in the mast. > > > > > > > > How much is a lot? Well an octave difference between port and pulling hard is a lot. Octave = 1/2 the frequency, which is half the stiffness, and when lateral stiffness goes to zero, the column buckles, so, an octave is half way to failing, it seems, but, this is not a factor of 2 safety ! Buckling is odd. Small defects to a perfect structure can drastically change its buckling strength. All the attachments and rigging points are potentially just such problems. Also, the mast can experience a local buckling, wrinkle and fold. So, I would look for a detectable (indicating not grossly over-designed) but small change in pitch between port and pulling hard to weather. > > > > Then I would be inclined to copy their rig. > > > > > > > > EI is not the end of the story however. If we keep the EI constant, but reduce the E of the material then we end up with a mast with a higher I. A higher I, maybe from using a thicker wall in aluminum than one would in steel, really changes the failure level for a face-wrinkling failure leading to buckling. > > > > > > > > I have looked at steel pipe, and I am toying with the idea of a wood pole right now. I have not ruled out an aluminum extrusion right now, but that is like $5,000 just for the extrusion for the mast. When I was considering steel pipe, I was also considering having the entire thing galvanized. I am far from making a mast decision, atm. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: williswildest@ > > Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 18:34:24 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Make sense... What is unclear to me, how to choose Moment of inertia for the mast? It will make the difference. This is an example for different shapes for 52' mast: > > > > Round tube: OD=6", ID=5.75", Wall = 0.125, area = 2.3, Moment if inertia (I) = 9.94, weight = 407 LBs > > > > Square tube: Exterior side=6", Interior side=5.75", Wall = 0.125, area = 2.4, (I) = 16.9, , weight = 519 LBs > > > > Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 5.75, (I_longit) = 47.6 and (I_trans) = 15.9, weight = 519 LBs > > > > But to bring round shape to the same I ~ 17 will require 0.225" wall > > Round tube: OD=6", ID=5.55", Wall = 0.225, area = 4.08, (I) = 17.01, weight = 722 LBs > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If you run the computations of E*I vs weight, you will find that a round or oval tube gives slightly better mechanical properties for the same weight, or lower weight for the same properties. Also, airflow around the leading edge and onto the sail is better on a round-er cross-section. The airflow can be improved by fairing the section (adding stuff to make it round-er. It is the leeward side of the mast going upwind that will contribute to the flow remaining attached to the sail, or the flow separating. When they flow remains attached, you get better suction, and more efficient sail performance. I would suspect that your minimum pointing angle to the wind would be substantially increased with a square section mast. For down-wind sailing, I cannot see how square vs. round really matters for airflow. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think in the end, your choice will be more constrained by availability, both in what sizes and shapes are manufactured, and what you might be able to get your hands on easily at a reasonable price. > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: williswildest@ > > > Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:31:07 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any advantages/disadvantages of rectangle tube mast vs. round tube mast? (Weight/needed_directional_strength ratio) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. > > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 23282|23216|2010-05-16 18:49:31|brentswain38|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|It doesn't cost all that much to have a pipe squashed to an oval in a brake press. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > I'm glad that the mastmaker made mine out of 6" sch 40 aluminum pipe! > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > Carl > I think that was a wise choice. While 15"^4 is fine for transverse moments I think 30 is needed for fore and aft "strength". I know the mast that Mickey had made up was 6" too. I think I'll keep looking for a 6" tube. BTW thanks for the lead on the rigging vice. > Rowland > | 23283|23258|2010-05-16 18:50:29|brentswain38|Re: stern tube construction|While I know people who have used rubber cutless bearings in grease filled stern tubes for decades with no problem, bronze oilite bearings work well for stern bearings, and will take a lot of heat. They also cost under $5. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I used to use stainless for stern tubes, until several corroded out from oxygen starvation. Now I use mild steel. Filling the stern tube with grease eliminates corrosion on the steel . If the spinning shaft throws the grease off, it won't remove it from the tube. There is no need for a grease nipple , just tap the tube for a 1/8th pipe thread and thread the end of the grease gun hose onto it. You can connect several grease hoses together, to get enough length to permanently mount the grease gun in a convenient place. All grease gun hoses have a 1/8th sch 40 thread on their ends. Just use 1/8th pipe couplers. > Give her a few strokes from time to time. > I have had this setup for the last 25 years, and have had no problems with it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rhko47" wrote: > > > > What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > > > | 23284|23234|2010-05-16 18:57:02|brentswain38|Re: Tanks - size & weight prediction|Depends how impatient you are. Jack and Monica sailed from Mexico to Australia with a 35 gallon tank. I sailed to Tahiti and back with non. I sailed home from Mexico non stop to BC with 15 gallons. When it was calm, I read. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I am trying to figure out what is average distance (range) for ocean going boat need to take in an account. Depending on this, it will require proper size for fuel and water tanks. It will affect total boat's weight as well. > > Any recommendations? > | 23285|23258|2010-05-17 01:30:59|Gord Schnell|Re: stern tube construction|Thanks for that reply, Paul. You and I have treated the construction similarily....I believe Brent and I had a conversation about the construction, when I was putting mine together....I followed his suggestions (perhaps as you did). Glad to hear it works fine without modification. I will carry on. Thanks Gord On 15-May-10, at 9:00 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > Most cutless bearings and packings I know of rely on water for > lubrication and cooling. Filling with grease may screw them up. I > would > only put a thin swipe of lanacote or something similar on the shaft. I > have seen scale on prop shafts inside a stern tube but fouling from > growth is not normally a problem. For barnacles or growth to occur, > they > need sunlight. My prop shaft is stainless with a painted, thick-walled > steel stern tube. Electrolysis or growth has never been a problem. > > Cheers, Paul > > David Frantz wrote: >> >> Depends upon the grease. I would expect most greases to wash out >> fairly quickly. Think about the axial of a vehical that has to >> cross deep water. The standard suggestion is to relube immediately >> after. >> >> At least that is my view. It might be better to fill with epoxy if >> you can clean it good enough to get good bondage. >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On May 15, 2010, at 10:06 PM, Gord Schnell > > wrote: >> >>> I made my sterntube of shed 80 "plain steel". Given that it is >>> "intimately" bonded to the steel skeg and hull, that should be its' >>> charge potential voltage anyway. The bearing is of bronze (and >>> rubber) and the propshaft is SS. The prop has not yet been chosen, >>> but >>> I expect it will be SS. >>> The propshaft does not physically contact any metal except at the >>> transmission end (all steel), but the seawater contacts all of these >>> components. Filling the sterntube with grease will exclude the >>> seawater from the inside of the sterntube and paint coatings will, >>> hopefully, isolated all the external steel components. That only >>> leaves the saltwater to electrically connect the prop, propshaft and >>> zincs. I expect the zincs will be the sacrificial material and they >>> will "sacrifice" at a higher rate. >>> Filling the sterntube with grease sounds like a n excellent >>> "insurance >>> policy". >>> Comments please. >>> Gord >>> On 15-May-10, at 5:08 AM, rhko47 wrote: >>> >>>> What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel >>>> shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't >>>> galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain >>>> steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside >>>> (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed >>>> periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a >>>> problem? >>>> Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and >>>> partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo >> >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23286|23286|2010-05-17 09:12:11|sitefix|rig rambling|ok, i am not too graceful at scribblin. so please be forgiving my errors. 1) i have easy chaired the many books on different "cruising rigs" and tried to consider the pros and cons. I be thinking usually, that i do not be wanting to wait for spouse, kids, friends, crew etc etc to go somewhere. I also be thinking that big waves, strong winds, and little me at 6' 235 plus doesn't need his butt handed to him too often. It can be scary out there. One thing i learned young and tried to teach my kids; Q-when do you reef????? A-when you first wonder about it..... ahh, it's a starting point until they get more experience. 2) experience- ok, me, i have only single handed simple marconi / burmuda rigs. Usually with a roller up front. I have crewed other split rigs a wee bit when younger, but no REAL experience with me puting them through their paces. alas, there are always advocates of something a bit different, that might be a bit better given a certain circumstance. I have gone wide circles thinking of a gaff cutter after reading some gaff books, and then naturally a junk rig after reading annie's book. Gee whiz, colvin chimes in with his experience and what fit's his designs, but i noticed last he was sailing his new ketch marconi rig that he built for his son???? I think that K marine in the puget sound also talks much about the benefits of both the junk and the gaff. 3)so, gee, maybe some sort of arrangements to throw a different mast on in a different location, and whilst at it add a bowsprit like so and so and then oh poo, that's a running back stay with a very long boom and I am gonna reef it solo on a 40' in the dark with no real concerns???? not!!! Maybe just drop the mizzen on the junk??? dont know. how does the junk do with bilge keels??? seems i heard they were somewhat challenged on the pointing issue even with a long sled type track keel. seems the gaff preferred such also??? experience needed. My budget lacks. 4)personally, i would be willing to give up some windward performance to gain a lot of over all ease in solo sailing. (maybe a junk???) anything to alleviate the stress level. there is always excitement and entertainment to be found, but de-stressing a situation at O-dark thirty makes for a nicer day after. Easier on the heart and longer life span. 5)as i follow this origami site, i need to keep reminding myself that not one of, but "the" most important goal that strikes me from Brent is, "Provide the safest vessel, most economically to those folks that otherwise would not have the chance at the opportunity". There are beautiful schooners, gaff cutters and such that are sailed everyday. but are they really what the "brent boat" is about?? Maybe an author writes that a gaff or junk sail is easier to make, easier to repair and the tackle is cheaper??? But how much easier and what is the trade off??? I have had red sails,"tanbark" and they were beautiful and made me feel good. maybe some of us need more of that. But then perhaps a different boat design all together??? i dunno. the simplicity, functionality and KISS seem to get chiseled away at times. 6) ok, back to the brent boat. with bilge keels. what really works, works well, and does not interfere with getting one out and keeping one out. I have read some replies from brent ref the junk and the gaff. kinda breaks my heart. i think the bowsprit would look good on the bb but then what's next?? where does one stop?? hah, the pleasure of building one's own vessel, making such decisions. for those in that circumstance, i congratulate you on getting that far. 7)i would be happy with the KISS approach and knowing that there is such an abundance of supplies waiting for me economically to keep me going. i hate putting other folks kids through college. tough enuff with mine. BUT- i would sure like to hear from others, that may have EXPERIENCE sailing a bilge keel vessel with a junk rig and or a gaff cutter rig or a split rig. I would really like to hear their honest findings not only on how they point to weather, but over all maintenance, handling characteristics when solo, and what they would do different if they were to do it again. How much sail time do they acquire monthly???? aahh gee, there i went again, another chapter. me thinks i will be kicked off the site if not careful. most apologetic i am. at least two positive things this spring. well one positive, one i am not sure about. 1)stainless welding no longer shivers me timbers, and 2) oops, i made the mistake of using a plasma cutter. sweet. I think it is time to stick together an anchor winch. yeehaa, fire in the hole. now, if someone would just answer the 40' mast question that I have been following. there is a mess of 6"x1/8"X40'aluminum irrigation pipe just up the road waiting for me. w3par 73's| 23287|23216|2010-05-17 10:49:28|Matt Malone|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|One does not convert I for steel and aluminium. I is determined entirely by cross-sectional shape. The difference in I between a steel and aluminium mast of the same "strength" vs. bending/buckling comes from their difference in Young's Modulus, or stiffness. Do not convert the I based on same ratio between steel, aluminium or wood. Different grades of steel and aluminium and different species of wood will have different properties. Please just look up the Young's Modulus for the exact grade / species you are considering. Young's Modulus can be calculated from a sample of wood, about a meter long, with an indicator gauge (feeler gages would work too) and some weights. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 06:13:06 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. Brain food for tomorrow: After rereading - "Build your own mast" - post # 22957 - link in post # 23244 In "Building your own mast" the recommended conversion from wood mast to aluminum uses coefficients I(alum)= I(wood)x0.14 and S(alum)=S(wood)x 0.05. Different for another wood 0.18, 0.06 So, for wood was I=255, S=60. Result for aluminum I=35.7, S=3. Which gives me an idea, that for STEEL I and S will be even lower (stronger material). As you see, I and S numbers are lower, but it gives the same strength for the mast. Question: What coefficients need to use to convert I and S numbers from aluminum to steel? P.S. Well, If displacement of the mast is lower than its weight, it will NOT float (even sealed) - no reserve buoyancy left. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > No problem. I would forget about worrying about buoyancy. Any mast you > are likely to use, if sealed, should float. If one day you are unlucky > enough to roll over, the mast may not stay up anyway. > > Cheers, Paul _________________________________________________________________ Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23288|23286|2010-05-17 11:18:20|wild_explorer|Re: rig rambling|I am more interested about "engineering" side of this question. Different rigs will put different load on the mast/masts. Keel stepped mast will stand different load than deck stepped or free standing mast. Which will require different strength for chosen type of the mast and different mast/mast location. I would like to set cabin/weelhouse arrangement to be able to accommodate different rigs. As for 6"x1/8" pipe I=9.94, S=3.31 Area=2.3 Need double check, but might (or might not) be OK for keel stepped mast for some rigs. Again DOUBLE CHECK by yourself. And as always, ASK for PROFESSIONAL advice. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > > 4)personally, i would be willing to give up some windward performance to gain a lot of over all ease in solo sailing. (maybe a junk???) anything to alleviate the stress level. there is always excitement and entertainment to be found, but de-stressing a situation at O-dark thirty makes for a nicer day after. Easier on the heart and longer life span. > > 5)as i follow this origami site, i need to keep reminding myself that not one of, but "the" most important goal that strikes me from Brent is, "Provide the safest vessel, most economically to those folks that otherwise would not have the chance at the opportunity". There are beautiful schooners, gaff cutters and such that are sailed everyday. but are they really what the "brent boat" is about?? Maybe an author writes that a gaff or junk sail is easier to make, easier to repair and the tackle is cheaper??? But how much easier and what is the trade off??? I have had red sails,"tanbark" and they were beautiful and made me feel good. maybe some of us need more of that. But then perhaps a different boat design all together??? i dunno. the simplicity, functionality and KISS seem to get chiseled away at times. > | 23289|23216|2010-05-17 11:49:57|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|I do not see why not to use simple coefficient for aluminum to steel conversion of THE SAME SHAPE to ESTIMATE what for we are looking in another material? Between shapes it could be different, but for the same shape should be the same coefficient. Detailed calculations might be done later. Steel: Young's mod. E = 206 GPa, Yield Strength = 250 MPa Aluminum: Young's mod. E = 70 GPa, Yield Strength = 400 MPa I and S - the same for the same size of shape. Looks like constant to me as generalization (not taking into account different grades of aluminum and steel) Basically, we need to start from rig load in the first place. P.S. I will check if there is big difference between ESTIMATE (using coefficient) and DETAILED calculation for the same shape (let say tube). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > One does not convert I for steel and aluminium. I is determined entirely by cross-sectional shape. The difference in I between a steel and aluminium mast of the same "strength" vs. bending/buckling comes from their difference in Young's Modulus, or stiffness. Do not convert the I based on same ratio between steel, aluminium or wood. Different grades of steel and aluminium and different species of wood will have different properties. Please just look up the Young's Modulus for the exact grade / species you are considering. > > > > Young's Modulus can be calculated from a sample of wood, about a meter long, with an indicator gauge (feeler gages would work too) and some weights. > > > > Matt | 23290|23258|2010-05-17 12:32:17|Carl Volkwein|Re: stern tube construction|--- On Sun, 5/16/10, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stern tube construction To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010, 12:00 AM Most cutless bearings and packings I know of rely on water for lubrication and cooling. Filling with grease may screw them up. I would only put a thin swipe of lanacote or something similar on the shaft. I have seen scale on prop shafts inside a stern tube but fouling from growth is not normally a problem. For barnacles or growth to occur, they need sunlight. My prop shaft is stainless with a painted, thick-walled steel stern tube. Electrolysis or growth has never been a problem. Cheers, Paul David Frantz wrote: > > Depends upon the grease. I would expect most greases to wash out > fairly quickly. Think about the axial of a vehical that has to > cross deep water. The standard suggestion is to relube immediately > after. > > At least that is my view. It might be better to fill with epoxy if > you can clean it good enough to get good bondage. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On May 15, 2010, at 10:06 PM, Gord Schnell > wrote: > > > I made my sterntube of shed 80 "plain steel". Given that it is > > "intimately" bonded to the steel skeg and hull, that should be its' > > charge potential voltage anyway. The bearing is of bronze (and > > rubber) and the propshaft is SS. The prop has not yet been chosen, but > > I expect it will be SS. > > The propshaft does not physically contact any metal except at the > > transmission end (all steel), but the seawater contacts all of these > > components. Filling the sterntube with grease will exclude the > > seawater from the inside of the sterntube and paint coatings will, > > hopefully, isolated all the external steel components. That only > > leaves the saltwater to electrically connect the prop, propshaft and > > zincs. I expect the zincs will be the sacrificial material and they > > will "sacrifice" at a higher rate. > > Filling the sterntube with grease sounds like a n excellent "insurance > > policy". > > Comments please. > > Gord > > On 15-May-10, at 5:08 AM, rhko47 wrote: > > > >> What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel > >> shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't > >> galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain > >> steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside > >> (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed > >> periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? > >> Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and > >> partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23291|23272|2010-05-17 12:43:55|Gord Schnell|Re: Stern tube construction|Probably no more "drag" than a "shaft seal". Gord On 16-May-10, at 10:04 AM, martin demers wrote: > > If the shaft turn in a tube full of grease dont that add too much > friction even if it is grease(because of the lenght of the tube)? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: rockrothwell@... > Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 06:57:09 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Stern tube construction > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Used to have a simple cheap grease gun mounted to a bulkhead in > the cockpit, in a deck locker that could be reached & easily > operated from the helm with an extra long hose on it. Into the > stuffing box we drilled & tapped threads to take the other end of > the grease hose. Pump the sucker full of grease and give it a shot > every hour of operation. Never a problem. > > > > Also, marine grease or underwater grease whatever you want to call > it, is expensive. Just use regular grease, it's being replaced often > enuf and the steal, whatever it is, won't know the differance. > > > > Then again, by excluding oxygen from the stainless, will that not > cause crevice corrosion over time??? Or do the zink's deal with that? > > > > cheers, > > Shane > > > > stern tube construction > > Posted by: "rhko47" rhko47@... rhko47 > > Sat May 15, 2010 5:12 am (PDT) > > > > What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel > shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't > galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain > steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside > (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed > periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? > Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and > partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23292|23272|2010-05-17 12:49:00|Gord Schnell|Re: Stern tube construction|The "rusting process" requires 2 components: water and oxygen. By allowing water to fill the sterntube, their is no oxygen except for the oxygen in "solution with hydrogen" (water). By preventing circulation of fresh water thru the sterntube, the "trapped" water soon becomes "oxygen poor" and no longer can contribute to the rusting process. Gord On 16-May-10, at 11:37 AM, theboilerflue wrote: > I have a Lathdrop dripless shaft seal so far have had no complaints > with it. No grease just an air vent coming out of the forward end of > the tube brought above the water line, I guess this is to facilitate > water coming up to it to cool it. > I was under the impression that steel didn't really rust much under > the water line as long as it's well zinc'ed I figure the zinc on the > SS shaft ought to do it even though it's got a bronze prop attached > to it. I also have a switch to disconnect the negative ground from > the engine/shaft when I'm not using it. So far the zinc looks pretty > good, not brand new but not missing large chunks either. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > wrote: > > > > > > If the shaft turn in a tube full of grease dont that add too much > friction even if it is grease(because of the lenght of the tube)? > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: rockrothwell@... > > Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 06:57:09 -0700 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Stern tube construction > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Used to have a simple cheap grease gun mounted to a bulkhead in > the cockpit, in a deck locker that could be reached & easily > operated from the helm with an extra long hose on it. Into the > stuffing box we drilled & tapped threads to take the other end of > the grease hose. Pump the sucker full of grease and give it a shot > every hour of operation. Never a problem. > > > > > > > > Also, marine grease or underwater grease whatever you want to call > it, is expensive. Just use regular grease, it's being replaced often > enuf and the steal, whatever it is, won't know the differance. > > > > > > > > Then again, by excluding oxygen from the stainless, will that not > cause crevice corrosion over time??? Or do the zink's deal with that? > > > > > > > > cheers, > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > stern tube construction > > > > Posted by: "rhko47" rhko47@... rhko47 > > > > Sat May 15, 2010 5:12 am (PDT) > > > > > > > > What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel > shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't > galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain > steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside > (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed > periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? > Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and > partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23293|23272|2010-05-17 13:08:00|Carl Anderson|Re: Stern tube construction|If you build a twin keel hull you will be changing the water every time you dry out the boat. If you are in an anchorage that you dry out once a day you will always have oxygenated water going inside the stern tube. In thinking this through I went with the decision to use 316 ss for my stern tube. I couldn't find a cutlass bearing that did a perfect fit from the many different sizes offered so consequently had to do some machining to make things work in my particular situation (your mileage may vary). I'd rather hear from those who HAVE BUILT a boat about what they did and what their experience has been with that. So with that, if you "haven't been there" then don't give comments from the "arm chair" as though they are FACT! Carl sv-mom.com Gord Schnell wrote: > The "rusting process" requires 2 components: water and oxygen. By > allowing water to fill the sterntube, their is no oxygen except for > the oxygen in "solution with hydrogen" (water). By preventing > circulation of fresh water thru the sterntube, the "trapped" water > soon becomes "oxygen poor" and no longer can contribute to the rusting > process. > Gord > > On 16-May-10, at 11:37 AM, theboilerflue wrote: > >> I have a Lathdrop dripless shaft seal so far have had no complaints >> with it. No grease just an air vent coming out of the forward end of >> the tube brought above the water line, I guess this is to facilitate >> water coming up to it to cool it. >> I was under the impression that steel didn't really rust much under >> the water line as long as it's well zinc'ed I figure the zinc on the >> SS shaft ought to do it even though it's got a bronze prop attached >> to it. I also have a switch to disconnect the negative ground from >> the engine/shaft when I'm not using it. So far the zinc looks pretty >> good, not brand new but not missing large chunks either. >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers >> wrote: >>> >>> If the shaft turn in a tube full of grease dont that add too much >> friction even if it is grease(because of the lenght of the tube)? >>> Martin. >>> >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: rockrothwell@... >>> Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 06:57:09 -0700 >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Stern tube construction >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Used to have a simple cheap grease gun mounted to a bulkhead in >> the cockpit, in a deck locker that could be reached & easily >> operated from the helm with an extra long hose on it. Into the >> stuffing box we drilled & tapped threads to take the other end of >> the grease hose. Pump the sucker full of grease and give it a shot >> every hour of operation. Never a problem. >>> >>> >>> Also, marine grease or underwater grease whatever you want to call >> it, is expensive. Just use regular grease, it's being replaced often >> enuf and the steal, whatever it is, won't know the differance. >>> >>> >>> Then again, by excluding oxygen from the stainless, will that not >> cause crevice corrosion over time??? Or do the zink's deal with that? >>> >>> >>> cheers, >>> >>> Shane >>> >>> >>> >>> stern tube construction >>> >>> Posted by: "rhko47" rhko47@... rhko47 >>> >>> Sat May 15, 2010 5:12 am (PDT) >>> >>> >>> >>> What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel >> shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't >> galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain >> steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside >> (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed >> periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? >> Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and >> partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! >>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 23294|23272|2010-05-17 13:19:00|wild_explorer|Re: Stern tube construction|It will depend on the viscosity of used grease,length of the shaft in tube and clearance between shaft and tube. It might have a lot of drag - much-much more than shaft seal. In big engines, some oil seal is used which made from some kind of rope (several turns) in the "bearing" bead against the shaft. It stands engine oil pressure without leaks. My coworker used sliding bearings and grease in long stern tube for the MODEL of the ship. He had to switch to ball bearings and no grease because of VERY big drag load on electrical motor. Probably thin layer of good grease which will stay on shaft at MAX RPM will be enough to protect shaft with such seal. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Probably no more "drag" than a "shaft seal". > Gord > > On 16-May-10, at 10:04 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > If the shaft turn in a tube full of grease dont that add too much > > friction even if it is grease(because of the lenght of the tube)? > > Martin. > > | 23295|23216|2010-05-17 13:21:15|Norm Moore|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Well, just look at the difference between the Young's modulus for steel and for aluminum. Aluminum is about 1/3 the strength of steel. That means you're forced to do something different with shape or thickness to make up for that inherent difference in material strength if you want a comparably strong mast in aluminum. An aluminum mast of the same size, shape and thickness as one in steel will always be 1/3 the strength. By the way, the Yield strength you list for aluminum looks to be for 2024 aircraft aluminum or 7075 neither of which are weldable alloys, if you're going to build a mast with aluminum pipe or use an extruded aluminum mast it will likely be in the weldable 6061 alloy which has a yield strength of about 276 MPa depending on temper (the T number, like T6). When 6061-T6 is welded it returns to it's annealed strength of just plain 6061-O in the area of the weld, so it will be weaker at these attachments points. For a short layman's course in metallurgy you might look for a copy of Engineer to Win by Carroll Smith in the automotive section of your local Borders book store. Get a cup of coffee and you'll find a wealth of info and common sense particularly in chapters 3 and 5. Norm Moore 559-645-5314 ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 17, 2010 8:49:22 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. I do not see why not to use simple coefficient for aluminum to steel conversion of THE SAME SHAPE to ESTIMATE what for we are looking in another material? Between shapes it could be different, but for the same shape should be the same coefficient. Detailed calculations might be done later. Steel: Young's mod. E = 206 GPa, Yield Strength = 250 MPa Aluminum: Young's mod. E = 70 GPa, Yield Strength = 400 MPa I and S - the same for the same size of shape. Looks like constant to me as generalization (not taking into account different grades of aluminum and steel) Basically, we need to start from rig load in the first place. P.S. I will check if there is big difference between ESTIMATE (using coefficient) and DETAILED calculation for the same shape (let say tube). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > One does not convert I for steel and aluminium. I is determined entirely by cross-sectional shape. The difference in I between a steel and aluminium mast of the same "strength" vs. bending/buckling comes from their difference in Young's Modulus, or stiffness. Do not convert the I based on same ratio between steel, aluminium or wood. Different grades of steel and aluminium and different species of wood will have different properties. Please just look up the Young's Modulus for the exact grade / species you are considering. > > > > Young's Modulus can be calculated from a sample of wood, about a meter long, with an indicator gauge (feeler gages would work too) and some weights. > > > > Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23296|23286|2010-05-17 16:00:34|brentswain38|Re: rig rambling|Building a junk sail is far more work and expense than going to the boaters exchange and buying a used sail, for a fraction the cost of materials, and hoisting it within the hour, then going sailing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > ok, i am not too graceful at scribblin. so please be forgiving my errors. > > 1) i have easy chaired the many books on different "cruising rigs" and tried to consider the pros and cons. I be thinking usually, that i do not be wanting to wait for spouse, kids, friends, crew etc etc to go somewhere. I also be thinking that big waves, strong winds, and little me at 6' 235 plus doesn't need his butt handed to him too often. It can be scary out there. One thing i learned young and tried to teach my kids; Q-when do you reef????? A-when you first wonder about it..... ahh, it's a starting point until they get more experience. > > 2) experience- ok, me, i have only single handed simple marconi / burmuda rigs. Usually with a roller up front. I have crewed other split rigs a wee bit when younger, but no REAL experience with me puting them through their paces. alas, there are always advocates of something a bit different, that might be a bit better given a certain circumstance. I have gone wide circles thinking of a gaff cutter after reading some gaff books, and then naturally a junk rig after reading annie's book. Gee whiz, colvin chimes in with his experience and what fit's his designs, but i noticed last he was sailing his new ketch marconi rig that he built for his son???? I think that K marine in the puget sound also talks much about the benefits of both the junk and the gaff. > > 3)so, gee, maybe some sort of arrangements to throw a different mast on in a different location, and whilst at it add a bowsprit like so and so and then oh poo, that's a running back stay with a very long boom and I am gonna reef it solo on a 40' in the dark with no real concerns???? not!!! Maybe just drop the mizzen on the junk??? dont know. how does the junk do with bilge keels??? seems i heard they were somewhat challenged on the pointing issue even with a long sled type track keel. seems the gaff preferred such also??? experience needed. My budget lacks. > > 4)personally, i would be willing to give up some windward performance to gain a lot of over all ease in solo sailing. (maybe a junk???) anything to alleviate the stress level. there is always excitement and entertainment to be found, but de-stressing a situation at O-dark thirty makes for a nicer day after. Easier on the heart and longer life span. > > 5)as i follow this origami site, i need to keep reminding myself that not one of, but "the" most important goal that strikes me from Brent is, "Provide the safest vessel, most economically to those folks that otherwise would not have the chance at the opportunity". There are beautiful schooners, gaff cutters and such that are sailed everyday. but are they really what the "brent boat" is about?? Maybe an author writes that a gaff or junk sail is easier to make, easier to repair and the tackle is cheaper??? But how much easier and what is the trade off??? I have had red sails,"tanbark" and they were beautiful and made me feel good. maybe some of us need more of that. But then perhaps a different boat design all together??? i dunno. the simplicity, functionality and KISS seem to get chiseled away at times. > > 6) ok, back to the brent boat. with bilge keels. what really works, works well, and does not interfere with getting one out and keeping one out. I have read some replies from brent ref the junk and the gaff. kinda breaks my heart. i think the bowsprit would look good on the bb but then what's next?? where does one stop?? hah, the pleasure of building one's own vessel, making such decisions. for those in that circumstance, i congratulate you on getting that far. > > 7)i would be happy with the KISS approach and knowing that there is such an abundance of supplies waiting for me economically to keep me going. i hate putting other folks kids through college. tough enuff with mine. > BUT- i would sure like to hear from others, that may have EXPERIENCE sailing a bilge keel vessel with a junk rig and or a gaff cutter rig or a split rig. I would really like to hear their honest findings not only on how they point to weather, but over all maintenance, handling characteristics when solo, and what they would do different if they were to do it again. How much sail time do they acquire monthly???? > > aahh gee, there i went again, another chapter. me thinks i will be kicked off the site if not careful. most apologetic i am. > > at least two positive things this spring. well one positive, one i am not sure about. 1)stainless welding no longer shivers me timbers, and 2) oops, i made the mistake of using a plasma cutter. sweet. > I think it is time to stick together an anchor winch. yeehaa, fire in the hole. > now, if someone would just answer the 40' mast question that I have been following. there is a mess of 6"x1/8"X40'aluminum irrigation pipe just up the road waiting for me. > w3par 73's > | 23297|23227|2010-05-17 16:03:08|brentswain38|Re: bella via|The last email I had for them was svbellavia@... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > hi, > be anybody in knowledge of how to contact "SV Bella Via"??? I be thinking of a question or two to ask. > > > Ok, sorry about the scribble, to much imported Trappist stuff. > Say's me son, "This aint that bad". > He is old enough for no charges of child abuse now. Just assault. arrggghh. > > thanks fer any leads. > > Par sitefix@... > | 23298|23216|2010-05-17 16:17:49|brentswain38|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|This is why any tangs welded on should be long on the base. If the base weld is three times as long as the narrowest point on the tang, then you only need 1/3rd the weld strength to get the same strength as it's narrowest point. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > Well, just look at the difference between the Young's modulus for steel and for aluminum. Aluminum is about 1/3 the strength of steel. That means you're forced to do something different with shape or thickness to make up for that inherent difference in material strength if you want a comparably strong mast in aluminum. An aluminum mast of the same size, shape and thickness as one in steel will always be 1/3 the strength. > > By the way, the Yield strength you list for aluminum looks to be for 2024 aircraft aluminum or 7075 neither of which are weldable alloys, if you're going to build a mast with aluminum pipe or use an extruded aluminum mast it will likely be in the weldable 6061 alloy which has a yield strength of about 276 MPa depending on temper (the T number, like T6). When 6061-T6 is welded it returns to it's annealed strength of just plain 6061-O in the area of the weld, so it will be weaker at these attachments points. > > For a short layman's course in metallurgy you might look for a copy of Engineer to Win by Carroll Smith in the automotive section of your local Borders book store. Get a cup of coffee and you'll find a wealth of info and common sense particularly in chapters 3 and 5. > > Norm Moore > 559-645-5314 > > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, May 17, 2010 8:49:22 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. > > > I do not see why not to use simple coefficient for aluminum to steel conversion of THE SAME SHAPE to ESTIMATE what for we are looking in another material? Between shapes it could be different, but for the same shape should be the same coefficient. Detailed calculations might be done later. > > Steel: Young's mod. E = 206 GPa, Yield Strength = 250 MPa > Aluminum: Young's mod. E = 70 GPa, Yield Strength = 400 MPa > > I and S - the same for the same size of shape. > > Looks like constant to me as generalization (not taking into account different grades of aluminum and steel) > > Basically, we need to start from rig load in the first place. > > P.S. I will check if there is big difference between ESTIMATE (using coefficient) and DETAILED calculation for the same shape (let say tube). > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > One does not convert I for steel and aluminium. I is determined entirely by cross-sectional shape. The difference in I between a steel and aluminium mast of the same "strength" vs. bending/buckling comes from their difference in Young's Modulus, or stiffness. Do not convert the I based on same ratio between steel, aluminium or wood. Different grades of steel and aluminium and different species of wood will have different properties. Please just look up the Young's Modulus for the exact grade / species you are considering. > > > > > > > > Young's Modulus can be calculated from a sample of wood, about a meter long, with an indicator gauge (feeler gages would work too) and some weights. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23299|23258|2010-05-17 16:41:12|theboilerflue|Re: stern tube construction|well mine cost $7.... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > While I know people who have used rubber cutless bearings in grease filled stern tubes for decades with no problem, bronze oilite bearings work well for stern bearings, and will take a lot of heat. They also cost under $5. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I used to use stainless for stern tubes, until several corroded out from oxygen starvation. Now I use mild steel. Filling the stern tube with grease eliminates corrosion on the steel . If the spinning shaft throws the grease off, it won't remove it from the tube. There is no need for a grease nipple , just tap the tube for a 1/8th pipe thread and thread the end of the grease gun hose onto it. You can connect several grease hoses together, to get enough length to permanently mount the grease gun in a convenient place. All grease gun hoses have a 1/8th sch 40 thread on their ends. Just use 1/8th pipe couplers. > > Give her a few strokes from time to time. > > I have had this setup for the last 25 years, and have had no problems with it. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rhko47" wrote: > > > > > > What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > > > > > > | 23300|23272|2010-05-17 17:19:03|brentswain38|Re: Stern tube construction|With a twin keeler in a drying anchorage, the water gets changed at every tide. With a single keeler it gets stagnant , enough to cause oxygen starvation in stainless, which is to little oxygen to corrode mild steel. Some have put the galley water intake in the front end of the stern tube to get enough oxygen in to stop the stainless form corroding. Having had great success with the grease filled tube, I don't see any point in changing it, so far. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > The "rusting process" requires 2 components: water and oxygen. By > allowing water to fill the sterntube, their is no oxygen except for > the oxygen in "solution with hydrogen" (water). By preventing > circulation of fresh water thru the sterntube, the "trapped" water > soon becomes "oxygen poor" and no longer can contribute to the rusting > process. > Gord > > On 16-May-10, at 11:37 AM, theboilerflue wrote: > > > I have a Lathdrop dripless shaft seal so far have had no complaints > > with it. No grease just an air vent coming out of the forward end of > > the tube brought above the water line, I guess this is to facilitate > > water coming up to it to cool it. > > I was under the impression that steel didn't really rust much under > > the water line as long as it's well zinc'ed I figure the zinc on the > > SS shaft ought to do it even though it's got a bronze prop attached > > to it. I also have a switch to disconnect the negative ground from > > the engine/shaft when I'm not using it. So far the zinc looks pretty > > good, not brand new but not missing large chunks either. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > If the shaft turn in a tube full of grease dont that add too much > > friction even if it is grease(because of the lenght of the tube)? > > > Martin. > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: rockrothwell@ > > > Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 06:57:09 -0700 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Stern tube construction > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Used to have a simple cheap grease gun mounted to a bulkhead in > > the cockpit, in a deck locker that could be reached & easily > > operated from the helm with an extra long hose on it. Into the > > stuffing box we drilled & tapped threads to take the other end of > > the grease hose. Pump the sucker full of grease and give it a shot > > every hour of operation. Never a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, marine grease or underwater grease whatever you want to call > > it, is expensive. Just use regular grease, it's being replaced often > > enuf and the steal, whatever it is, won't know the differance. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then again, by excluding oxygen from the stainless, will that not > > cause crevice corrosion over time??? Or do the zink's deal with that? > > > > > > > > > > > > cheers, > > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > stern tube construction > > > > > > Posted by: "rhko47" rhko47@ rhko47 > > > > > > Sat May 15, 2010 5:12 am (PDT) > > > > > > > > > > > > What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel > > shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't > > galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain > > steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside > > (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed > > periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a problem? > > Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and > > partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! > > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23301|23258|2010-05-17 17:37:59|David Frantz|Re: stern tube construction|Inflation! David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On May 17, 2010, at 4:37 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > well mine cost $7.... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> >> While I know people who have used rubber cutless bearings in grease >> filled stern tubes for decades with no problem, bronze oilite >> bearings work well for stern bearings, and will take a lot of heat. >> They also cost under $5. >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" >> wrote: >>> >>> I used to use stainless for stern tubes, until several corroded >>> out from oxygen starvation. Now I use mild steel. Filling the >>> stern tube with grease eliminates corrosion on the steel . If the >>> spinning shaft throws the grease off, it won't remove it from the >>> tube. There is no need for a grease nipple , just tap the tube >>> for a 1/8th pipe thread and thread the end of the grease gun hose >>> onto it. You can connect several grease hoses together, to get >>> enough length to permanently mount the grease gun in a convenient >>> place. All grease gun hoses have a 1/8th sch 40 thread on their >>> ends. Just use 1/8th pipe couplers. >>> Give her a few strokes from time to time. >>> I have had this setup for the last 25 years, and have had no >>> problems with it. >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rhko47" wrote: >>>> >>>> What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless >>>> steel shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, >>>> won't galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is >>>> of plain steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted >>>> inside (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be >>>> renewed periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube >>>> be a problem? Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease >>>> fitting and partially or completely filling the space with marine >>>> grease? >>>> >>> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23302|23258|2010-05-17 18:43:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: stern tube construction|On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 12:53:41PM -0400, martin demers wrote: > > If with the PSS you came back having water in the stern tube that > doesn't solved the possibility of rust in the tube. No, but that's not what you asked. If you want the answer to "what would eliminate rust in the stern tube", then the answer would be "a stainless stern tube". -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23303|23272|2010-05-17 18:50:35|Paul Wilson|Re: Stern tube construction|>>>>Having had great success with the grease filled tube, I don't see any point in changing it, so far. I think it depends on the type of cutlass bearing and packing gland/stuffing box whether this works or not. I was on a boat last year with a cutlass bearing which over heated and burned up due to too much grease blocking water from flutes (channels) in the bearing....the flutes were narrow (like slits from a hack saw blade) and got clogged by the grease. Most drip-less seals require water for cooling or lubrication and need to be "burped" to let the water in after haulout or they may overheat and be destroyed. The larger ones require water injection to ensure they get enough flow. Even on an old style packing, I like to see a slight water drip or a stainless shaft can heat up and get scored. I think with your system of bronze oilite bearing, grease is fine, as long as it isn't a super-thick, no wash-out grease like Lanacote. Paul > > | 23304|23258|2010-05-17 18:53:42|Paul Wilson|Re: stern tube construction|Clean it and paint it......I dragged a rag on a string with epoxy paint through it.....it's never been a problem. Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 12:53:41PM -0400, martin demers wrote: > > > > If with the PSS you came back having water in the stern tube that > > doesn't solved the possibility of rust in the tube. > > No, but that's not what you asked. If you want the answer to "what would > eliminate rust in the stern tube", then the answer would be "a stainless > stern tube". > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > | 23305|23216|2010-05-17 19:03:51|Paul Wilson|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|I prefer if Brent answer your questions regarding the steel masts since I have no experience with them and have probably stepped on his toes enough as it is......personally, I have never been a fan of the extra weight, but one day if I lose my mast, knowing I can use a steel mast may get me out of a jam.... Cheers, Paul wild_explorer wrote: > > Matt, Paul. Please check this information: > > I the example of production mast ( > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/5280-cruising.html ), > Ixx=31.7 & Iyy=15.1 > > Using coefficient for conversion I(moment of inertia) from aluminum to > steel = 0.3398, I got equivalent for steel Ixx=10.77 & Iyy=5.13 > > Closest reasonable match I could find in document provided by Paul ( > http://www.steeltubeinstitute.org/pdf/brochures/dimension_brochure.pdf > ) is; > > 6"x4"x1/8"(0.116) Tube with: > Ixx=11.4 [Sx=3.81], Iyy=6.15 [Sx=3.08], > > it has: > Weight=8.16 lb/ft, > Displacement 10.66 lb/ft, > Reserved buoyancy 2.5 lb/ft > > For 52' mast Reserved buoyancy = 130 Lb > > ******************************* > More detailed calculations on load capacity could be done here: > > http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/section_square_case_10.htm > http://www.tech.plymouth.ac.uk/sme/desnotes/BucklingB.htm > > Steel: Young's mod. E = 206 GPa, Yield Strength = 250 MPa > Aluminum: Young's mod. E = 70 GPa, Yield Strength = 400 MPa > ********************************** > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Matt Malone > wrote: > > > > > > > > All good questions... that I am working on also. I have never > designed a mast before but am considering my options. The two formuli > that seem important are bending and buckling. Wikipedia gives a good > explanation of both: > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bending > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckling > > > > > > > > In both of these equations, the important term for the cross-section > is Youngs modulus times the second moment of area or E*I. Everyone > posting so far has been giving only I values. This ignores the exact > choice of material. I believe it was Carl who said Yacht-Tech > suggested some I values, but without knowing what material they had in > mind (the E), we do not know the EI. If they were thinking extruded > aluminum, then a steel mast would be much more structurally stiff at > the same I. > > > > > > > > A mast has both bending and buckling at the same time, which I have > yet to see a readily available formula for. As an experiment, take a > metal meter stick, stand it up and push down on it like a column with > your thumb. Then do it again, but this time press laterally about > halfway down with your finger on the other hand-- buckles more easily. > A main sail going to weather creates a large suction that is both > lateral and forward. As the boat heels, the righting moment from the > heel of the boat balances the moment caused by the wind on the sail > and the boat stands stably at a heel angle. With a deck-stepped mast > (or a keel-stepped one where the doghouse does not press laterally on > the mast), this moment is carried up into the mast by additional > tension on the weather side, and less tension on the leeway side of > the standing rigging. The low angle at which the standing rigging > comes together at the top of the mast causes a compressive force > downward on the mast which is important for buckling. The side forces > from the sail, translated to the mast, all the way up the mast, cause > the mast to experience bending. One must examine these forces together > to see if the bending of the mast is acceptably small, and there is no > danger of buckling, and there is no danger of exceeding the strength > of the mast (three separate tests I can think of off the top of my > head).... > > > > > > > > Add to this that spreaders assist to reduce compression, and improve > lateral bending resistance, but do nothing to help forward-aft bending. > > > > > > > > I think it would be more efficient for a layman not to speak of > moments of inertia or anything else, and find someone who is using a > steel pipe as a mast. Find their sail areas, spreader configurations, > and boat size, go sailing with them in some heavy stuff, and see what > you think of their mast's performance. > > > > > > > > One layman's trick: When something is close to a buckling failure, > its frequency of vibration goes to zero (try this with the metal > meter-stick). Tap the mast with a rubber hammer in port and again when > it is really pulling to weather. You should notice a difference in > pitch because of the added compressive load. You can also do this by > changing the tension in the standing rigging -- tighter standing > rigging vibrates, like a guitar-string, at a higher frequency as you > add tension, the mast will vibrate at a lower frequency with the added > compression -- this of course is just to see the effect, one generally > loosens the rig to reduce standing compression in the mast. > > > > > > > > How much is a lot? Well an octave difference between port and > pulling hard is a lot. Octave = 1/2 the frequency, which is half the > stiffness, and when lateral stiffness goes to zero, the column > buckles, so, an octave is half way to failing, it seems, but, this is > not a factor of 2 safety ! Buckling is odd. Small defects to a perfect > structure can drastically change its buckling strength. All the > attachments and rigging points are potentially just such problems. > Also, the mast can experience a local buckling, wrinkle and fold. So, > I would look for a detectable (indicating not grossly over-designed) > but small change in pitch between port and pulling hard to weather. > > > > Then I would be inclined to copy their rig. > > > > > > > > EI is not the end of the story however. If we keep the EI constant, > but reduce the E of the material then we end up with a mast with a > higher I. A higher I, maybe from using a thicker wall in aluminum than > one would in steel, really changes the failure level for a > face-wrinkling failure leading to buckling. > > > > > > > > I have looked at steel pipe, and I am toying with the idea of a wood > pole right now. I have not ruled out an aluminum extrusion right now, > but that is like $5,000 just for the extrusion for the mast. When I > was considering steel pipe, I was also considering having the entire > thing galvanized. I am far from making a mast decision, atm. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: williswildest@... > > Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 18:34:24 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Make sense... What is unclear to me, how to choose Moment of inertia > for the mast? It will make the difference. This is an example for > different shapes for 52' mast: > > > > Round tube: OD=6", ID=5.75", Wall = 0.125, area = 2.3, Moment if > inertia (I) = 9.94, weight = 407 LBs > > > > Square tube: Exterior side=6", Interior side=5.75", Wall = 0.125, > area = 2.4, (I) = 16.9, , weight = 519 LBs > > > > Rectangular tube: 8x4", Wall = 0.125, area = 5.75, (I_longit) = 47.6 > and (I_trans) = 15.9, weight = 519 LBs > > > > But to bring round shape to the same I ~ 17 will require 0.225" wall > > Round tube: OD=6", ID=5.55", Wall = 0.225, area = 4.08, (I) = 17.01, > weight = 722 LBs > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If you run the computations of E*I vs weight, you will find that a > round or oval tube gives slightly better mechanical properties for the > same weight, or lower weight for the same properties. Also, airflow > around the leading edge and onto the sail is better on a round-er > cross-section. The airflow can be improved by fairing the section > (adding stuff to make it round-er. It is the leeward side of the mast > going upwind that will contribute to the flow remaining attached to > the sail, or the flow separating. When they flow remains attached, you > get better suction, and more efficient sail performance. I would > suspect that your minimum pointing angle to the wind would be > substantially increased with a square section mast. For down-wind > sailing, I cannot see how square vs. round really matters for airflow. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think in the end, your choice will be more constrained by > availability, both in what sizes and shapes are manufactured, and what > you might be able to get your hands on easily at a reasonable price. > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:31:07 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast for 40 footer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any advantages/disadvantages of rectangle tube mast vs. round tube > mast? (Weight/needed_directional_strength ratio) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. > > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 23306|23258|2010-05-17 19:06:47|Ben Okopnik|Re: stern tube construction|On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 10:53:35AM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > Clean it and paint it......I dragged a rag on a string with epoxy paint > through it.....it's never been a problem. That makes good sense too. I painted the inside of my cockpit scuppers (relatively long, crossed pipes) by feeding a string down and tying a rag in the middle of it. Then, I pulled the rag most of the way up the pipe, poured a couple of pints of paint into it, and slowly pulled the rag back down (that way, I wasn't wiping the paint off while trying to put it on.) Sure, I wasted a little paint when the rag came out - but I got perfect coverage inside. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23307|23216|2010-05-17 19:38:43|wild_explorer|Re: Steel mast for 40 footer.|Found: Strength of Aluminum alloys - http://www.pcmalpani.com/AluminiumPCM.pdf That is very wide range!!! 6063-T6 Tensile 35 ksi Yield 31 ksi 6061-T6-651 Tensile 45 ksi Yield 40 ksi 6061-O Tensile 18 ksi Yield 8 ksi 6061 is a heat-treatable grade widely used in light to medium strength structural applications. such as aircraft, marine, furniture, air conditioning and heat exchanger components.These alloys have good corrosion resistance and weldability and possesses good formability in the 0 to T4 tempers. 6061 loses appreciable strength when welded and it is replaced by the 5000 series alloys where afterweld strength is a prime consideration. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > By the way, the Yield strength you list for aluminum looks to be for 2024 aircraft aluminum or 7075 neither of which are weldable alloys, if you're going to build a mast with aluminum pipe or use an extruded aluminum mast it will likely be in the weldable 6061 alloy which has a yield strength of about 276 MPa depending on temper (the T number, like T6). When 6061-T6 is welded it returns to it's annealed strength of just plain 6061-O in the area of the weld, so it will be weaker at these attachments points. > | 23308|23286|2010-05-17 20:54:47|wild_explorer|Re: rig rambling|sitefix, where did you get information that irrigation pipe has 1/8" (0.125) wall? I only found 1 company making pipes with 0.125" and 0.250" wall. All others usually make them for 6" pipes with 0.051, 0.058 & 0.083", for 8" pipes with 0.051, 0.064, 0.083 & 0.094. Do you have the name of the company who makes it? Interesting idea if it has needed strength. Irrigation pipes are available in 30 and 40' length and made from alloy 3004-H26. I am looking for more information to compare it with 6" Sch40 aluminum pipe. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > now, if someone would just answer the 40' mast question that I have been following. there is a mess of 6"x1/8"X40'aluminum irrigation pipe just up the road waiting for me. > w3par 73's > | 23309|23286|2010-05-18 00:07:42|wild_explorer|Re: rig rambling|May be worth of taking a look at irrigation pipe idea (especially for folks in agricultural areas) 16m mast from 6" schedule 40 aluminum pipe 6061-T6, 6063-T6 (weight 6.497 lbs/ft): Moment of Inertia (Units4) = 28.09 Euler load (N) 31059.68 16m mast from 10"x0.094" aluminum irrigation pipe 3004-H26 (weight 3.470 lb/ft) Moment of Inertia (Units4) = 35.82 Euler load (N) 39606.01 ALL DATA NEED TO BE VERIFIED!!! But it looks like a mast from irrigation pipe is lighter (3.027 lb/ft less, almost 50%), stronger and has more buoyancy. Cons: 10" instead of 6" - more area => wind resistance. Comments???| 23310|23286|2010-05-18 01:49:18|Matt Malone|Re: rig rambling|As the thickness decreases compared to the diameter, one of the implicit assumptions of the Euler Buckling theory fails, that is that the beam buckles in a sort of sinusoidal shape from end to end, as a slender beam. To illustrate how incorrect this is, lets imagine a mast 16 inches in diameter, made of an aluminium-foil thickness aluminium. I calculate the I of that to be about 50, and its weight only 0.47 lb/ft. Sure the I is huge. But how would you mount a spreader to that? Realistically, we all know it will collapse under its own weight because it does not buckle in the same way that a 6 inch / quarter inch thick pipe does. The tinfoil silo will wrinkle on its face and fall like a crumpled sheet. There are extremes and 10 inches diameter and 0.094 inches thick is too extreme (btw, I get a second moment of area I, of 151 =(5.094^4 - 5^4) * 3.1415929 for that) Now the exact opposite of this is the wood mast. Huge I, low Young's Modulus, but practically, far more robust than a thin metal section. Take one good chop with an axe to a thin-walled aluminium mast section, and there is a good chance it will fold at the local damage. Take one good chop with an axe at a 8" wood mast. Ok, the axe is an extreme example -- think back to mounting a spreader on the aluminium foil mast. Point is, with a lower E (Young's Modulus) and higher I providing the same EI for bending and buckling, and you have a system that is more insensitive to local defects, like mountings, and dings. On a thin aluminium section, care must be taken in attaching hardware for this reason. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 04:05:33 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling May be worth of taking a look at irrigation pipe idea (especially for folks in agricultural areas) 16m mast from 6" schedule 40 aluminum pipe 6061-T6, 6063-T6 (weight 6.497 lbs/ft): Moment of Inertia (Units4) = 28.09 Euler load (N) 31059.68 16m mast from 10"x0.094" aluminum irrigation pipe 3004-H26 (weight 3.470 lb/ft) Moment of Inertia (Units4) = 35.82 Euler load (N) 39606.01 ALL DATA NEED TO BE VERIFIED!!! But it looks like a mast from irrigation pipe is lighter (3.027 lb/ft less, almost 50%), stronger and has more buoyancy. Cons: 10" instead of 6" - more area => wind resistance. Comments??? _________________________________________________________________ Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23311|23286|2010-05-18 03:12:47|wild_explorer|Re: rig rambling|Matt, You are right, 0.094"(2.388mm) does not look good for 10" mast - thank you for pointing it out. As well, as it would be hard to find irrigation pipe with wall 0.125" or 0.25". Looks like this idea goes to a trashcan. My calculation was based on rO=5", rI=4.906" second moment of inertia I =(rO^4-rI^4)* 3.14/4. I used (may be incorrectly) rO as MAX radius for 10" tube, but formula looks OK. According it, I=35.8 Interesting comment about wood mast - I would agree on that one. Thanks! It would be nice to have mast choices calculated/available_for_evaluation in different PRACTICAL materials. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > There are extremes and 10 inches diameter and 0.094 inches thick is too extreme (btw, I get a second moment of area I, of 151 =(5.094^4 - 5^4) * 3.1415929 for that) > | 23312|23286|2010-05-18 03:24:23|Paul Wilson|Re: rig rambling|Good points, Matt.....a good rule of thumb is that if you are trying to tap a bolt into something and you can't get 4 threads, it is too thin for the strength of the bolt. An example of this is the mast steps for my mast are tapped in with 10-32 bolts. With a 1/4 inch wall thickness on my mast, this is no problem. With a 0.094 inch wall thickness, this would be impossible. Paul Matt Malone wrote: > As the thickness decreases compared to the diameter, one of the implicit assumptions of the Euler Buckling theory fails, that is that the beam buckles in a sort of sinusoidal shape from end to end, as a slender beam. > > To illustrate how incorrect this is, lets imagine a mast 16 inches in diameter, made of an aluminium-foil thickness aluminium. I calculate the I of that to be about 50, and its weight only 0.47 lb/ft. Sure the I is huge. But how would you mount a spreader to that? Realistically, we all know it will collapse under its own weight because it does not buckle in the same way that a 6 inch / quarter inch thick pipe does. The tinfoil silo will wrinkle on its face and fall like a crumpled sheet. > > There are extremes and 10 inches diameter and 0.094 inches thick is too extreme (btw, I get a second moment of area I, of 151 =(5.094^4 - 5^4) * 3.1415929 for that) > > Now the exact opposite of this is the wood mast. Huge I, low Young's Modulus, but practically, far more robust than a thin metal section. Take one good chop with an axe to a thin-walled aluminium mast section, and there is a good chance it will fold at the local damage. Take one good chop with an axe at a 8" wood mast. Ok, the axe is an extreme example -- think back to mounting a spreader on the aluminium foil mast. > > Point is, with a lower E (Young's Modulus) and higher I providing the same EI for bending and buckling, and you have a system that is more insensitive to local defects, like mountings, and dings. On a thin aluminium section, care must be taken in attaching hardware for this reason. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 04:05:33 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > May be worth of taking a look at irrigation pipe idea (especially for folks in agricultural areas) > > > > 16m mast from 6" schedule 40 aluminum pipe 6061-T6, 6063-T6 (weight 6.497 lbs/ft): > > > > Moment of Inertia (Units4) = 28.09 > > Euler load (N) 31059.68 > > > > 16m mast from 10"x0.094" aluminum irrigation pipe 3004-H26 (weight 3.470 lb/ft) > > > > Moment of Inertia (Units4) = 35.82 > > Euler load (N) 39606.01 > > > > ALL DATA NEED TO BE VERIFIED!!! But it looks like a mast from irrigation pipe is lighter (3.027 lb/ft less, almost 50%), stronger and has more buoyancy. Cons: 10" instead of 6" - more area => wind resistance. > > > > Comments??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 23313|23286|2010-05-18 11:13:25|wild_explorer|Re: rig rambling|Would not be drilling in the mast makes more possible failure points? Or the welding of tempered aluminum weakens it more? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > An example of this is the mast steps for > my mast are tapped in with 10-32 bolts. With a 1/4 inch wall thickness > on my mast, this is no problem. With a 0.094 inch wall thickness, this > would be impossible. > > Paul | 23314|23286|2010-05-18 12:11:07|Matt Malone|Re: rig rambling|You are right, I forgot the factor of 4 in the formula.... the irrigation pipe is I = 35 ish, and my aluminum foil mast would have to be 25 inches in diameter for an I of 50. I even got the value of PI wrong. I should not write posts late at night... I just bought a boat with slight mast damage. I had been weighing the orgami option, but the price for this one was right. So now I am looking at mast options in a serious way. That irrigation pipe really sounded good at first. Finding a good straight tree of the right species on my bush lot also sounds pretty good. Moitessier went a long way with a utility pole as a mast and cheap utility pole rigging. One has to keep the mass aloft low to prevent instability, but at least trees taper as you go up, unlike extruded aluminum sections. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:12:38 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling Matt, You are right, 0.094"(2.388mm) does not look good for 10" mast - thank you for pointing it out. As well, as it would be hard to find irrigation pipe with wall 0.125" or 0.25". Looks like this idea goes to a trashcan. My calculation was based on rO=5", rI=4.906" second moment of inertia I =(rO^4-rI^4)* 3.14/4. I used (may be incorrectly) rO as MAX radius for 10" tube, but formula looks OK. According it, I=35.8 Interesting comment about wood mast - I would agree on that one. Thanks! It would be nice to have mast choices calculated/available_for_evaluation in different PRACTICAL materials. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > There are extremes and 10 inches diameter and 0.094 inches thick is too extreme (btw, I get a second moment of area I, of 151 =(5.094^4 - 5^4) * 3.1415929 for that) > _________________________________________________________________ Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23315|23286|2010-05-18 12:39:21|Andrew Sullivan|Re: rig rambling|About a year ago, someone on the Denver craigslist was selling aluminum traffic signal poles-the kind you see holding up street lights at city intersections. Extruded and tapered. Might be worth considering if you can find them.... --- On Tue, 5/18/10, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 10:10 AM You are right, I forgot the factor of 4 in the formula.... the irrigation pipe is I = 35 ish, and my aluminum foil mast would have to be 25 inches in diameter for an I of 50.   I even got the value of PI wrong.   I should not write posts late at night...  I just bought a boat with slight mast damage.  I had been weighing the orgami option, but the price for this one was right.  So now I am looking at mast options in a serious way.   That irrigation pipe really sounded good at first.  Finding a good straight tree of the right species on my bush lot also sounds pretty good.   Moitessier went a long way with a utility pole as a mast and cheap utility pole rigging.  One has to keep the mass aloft low to prevent instability, but at least trees taper as you go up, unlike extruded aluminum sections.    Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:12:38 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling   Matt, You are right, 0.094"(2.388mm) does not look good for 10" mast - thank you for pointing it out. As well, as it would be hard to find irrigation pipe with wall 0.125" or 0.25". Looks like this idea goes to a trashcan. My calculation was based on rO=5", rI=4.906" second moment of inertia I =(rO^4-rI^4)* 3.14/4. I used (may be incorrectly) rO as MAX radius for 10" tube, but formula looks OK. According it, I=35.8 Interesting comment about wood mast - I would agree on that one. Thanks! It would be nice to have mast choices calculated/available_for_evaluation in different PRACTICAL materials. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > There are extremes and 10 inches diameter and 0.094 inches thick is too extreme (btw, I get a second moment of area I, of 151 =(5.094^4 - 5^4) * 3.1415929 for that) >                           _________________________________________________________________ Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23316|23286|2010-05-18 14:36:32|theboilerflue|Re: rig rambling|If you csn find some irrigation pipe with s thick enough wall go for it my experience with irrigation pipe is the thin walled variety, It some times would spring leaks out in the field it was so thin, so far it's made a great chimney extension. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > May be worth of taking a look at irrigation pipe idea (especially for folks in agricultural areas) > > 16m mast from 6" schedule 40 aluminum pipe 6061-T6, 6063-T6 (weight 6.497 lbs/ft): > > Moment of Inertia (Units4) = 28.09 > Euler load (N) 31059.68 > > 16m mast from 10"x0.094" aluminum irrigation pipe 3004-H26 (weight 3.470 lb/ft) > > Moment of Inertia (Units4) = 35.82 > Euler load (N) 39606.01 > > ALL DATA NEED TO BE VERIFIED!!! But it looks like a mast from irrigation pipe is lighter (3.027 lb/ft less, almost 50%), stronger and has more buoyancy. Cons: 10" instead of 6" - more area => wind resistance. > > Comments??? > | 23317|23286|2010-05-18 14:53:44|theboilerflue|Re: rig rambling|Same theory goes for running poles, I would rather build a smaller diameter pole with a thicker wall than a larger thinner one, mainly because I imagine the pole will smash itself into my handrails every once and a while, thinker wall pipe will be less likely to dent and buckle. The extrusion I got came with a couple of good size dents, one at either end about 4 feet in, We'll see how that it holds up. I hummed and haud about either riveting a plate over top of them or welding or popping them out but I figured any thing I did to it would only weaken the mast more, any thoughts?| 23318|23272|2010-05-18 15:13:47|Gord Schnell|Re: Stern tube construction|Are you reprimanding me, Carl? Don't go there. Gord On 17-May-10, at 10:07 AM, Carl Anderson wrote: > If you build a twin keel hull you will be changing the water every > time > you dry out the boat. If you are in an anchorage that you dry out once > a day you will always have oxygenated water going inside the stern > tube. > In thinking this through I went with the decision to use 316 ss for my > stern tube. I couldn't find a cutlass bearing that did a perfect fit > from the many different sizes offered so consequently had to do some > machining to make things work in my particular situation (your mileage > may vary). > > I'd rather hear from those who HAVE BUILT a boat about what they did > and > what their experience has been with that. So with that, if you > "haven't > been there" then don't give comments from the "arm chair" as though > they > are FACT! > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > Gord Schnell wrote: > > The "rusting process" requires 2 components: water and oxygen. By > > allowing water to fill the sterntube, their is no oxygen except for > > the oxygen in "solution with hydrogen" (water). By preventing > > circulation of fresh water thru the sterntube, the "trapped" water > > soon becomes "oxygen poor" and no longer can contribute to the > rusting > > process. > > Gord > > > > On 16-May-10, at 11:37 AM, theboilerflue wrote: > > > >> I have a Lathdrop dripless shaft seal so far have had no complaints > >> with it. No grease just an air vent coming out of the forward end > of > >> the tube brought above the water line, I guess this is to > facilitate > >> water coming up to it to cool it. > >> I was under the impression that steel didn't really rust much under > >> the water line as long as it's well zinc'ed I figure the zinc on > the > >> SS shaft ought to do it even though it's got a bronze prop attached > >> to it. I also have a switch to disconnect the negative ground from > >> the engine/shaft when I'm not using it. So far the zinc looks > pretty > >> good, not brand new but not missing large chunks either. > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> If the shaft turn in a tube full of grease dont that add too much > >> friction even if it is grease(because of the lenght of the tube)? > >>> Martin. > >>> > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> From: rockrothwell@... > >>> Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 06:57:09 -0700 > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Stern tube construction > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Used to have a simple cheap grease gun mounted to a bulkhead in > >> the cockpit, in a deck locker that could be reached & easily > >> operated from the helm with an extra long hose on it. Into the > >> stuffing box we drilled & tapped threads to take the other end of > >> the grease hose. Pump the sucker full of grease and give it a shot > >> every hour of operation. Never a problem. > >>> > >>> > >>> Also, marine grease or underwater grease whatever you want to call > >> it, is expensive. Just use regular grease, it's being replaced > often > >> enuf and the steal, whatever it is, won't know the differance. > >>> > >>> > >>> Then again, by excluding oxygen from the stainless, will that not > >> cause crevice corrosion over time??? Or do the zink's deal with > that? > >>> > >>> > >>> cheers, > >>> > >>> Shane > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> stern tube construction > >>> > >>> Posted by: "rhko47" rhko47@... rhko47 > >>> > >>> Sat May 15, 2010 5:12 am (PDT) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> What should a stern tube be made of? It contains a stainless steel > >> shaft bathed in seawater. If it is of galvanized pipe, won't > >> galvanic corrosion make short work of the zinc? If it is of plain > >> steel, what will stop it from rusting? If it is painted inside > >> (How?), what paint should be used, and does it need to be renewed > >> periodically? Will marine growth inside the stern tube be a > problem? > >> Would there be any advantage to inserting a grease fitting and > >> partially or completely filling the space with marine grease? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> __________________________________________________________ > >>> 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! > >>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23319|23286|2010-05-18 17:07:25|wild_explorer|Re: rig rambling|You are absolutely right. I forgot to mention IF you can find irrigation pipe with 0.125 or 0.25" wall, go for NEW one. I read report about negative effect of corrosion by running water on structural strength of the pipe - not pretty, and does not take much time ether. Some 6", 8" (even thin wall) irrigation pipes have working pressure up to 200-300 psi. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > If you csn find some irrigation pipe with s thick enough wall go for it my experience with irrigation pipe is the thin walled variety, It some times would spring leaks out in the field it was so thin, so far it's made a great chimney extension. > | 23320|23286|2010-05-18 17:23:47|Matt Malone|Re: rig rambling|Hello Haiden, If it is only 4 feet in from the ends, and you get into the ends, you might pop out the dents (from inside, with wooden faces on tools) and then fill a slug of about a 6 inch to 1 foot-long segment of the mast, covering the dents, with some tough, high-density foam, or low density plastic resin. You want something quite resistant to compressive forces, like something you could walk on a sheet of and not leave footprints, but not too hard, and certainly not brittle. The idea is, the lateral buckling forces are tiny compared to the axial load, and just the right bulk reinforcement slug inside the mast will hold back buckling at that point. You do not want something too stiff or right near the edge you create a stress concentration. In fact, a nice miniscus effect is good from a poured material. Use a close-fitting block to act as the dam. Careful with anything that heats as it cures, you can get a runaway reaction -- pour it in a thin layer at a time. Of course if you are going to run electrical wires, put the conduit through first or prepare to drill a hole through the middle of the plug after it hardens. I fill my problems with West Epoxy, similar to the stuff we used to pot test pieces into end plates in the shells lab I worked in. My favourite is to drill two tiny holes into the area, one downhill, the other at the most up-hill spot on the void to allow air to escape. Then I make a volcano-like thing out of pasticine and put it on the lower hole, and carefully pour in epoxy in layers until it starts to come out the top hole, then I cover the top hole with packing tape. Two holes of 1/16" through a skin backed up with epoxy is pretty strong. I used this method for all my deck core repairs -- removed deteriorated end-grain balsa and replaced it with epoxy. At the cost of a few pounds, that section of mast might be stronger than anywhere else. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: haidan@... Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:51:02 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling Same theory goes for running poles, I would rather build a smaller diameter pole with a thicker wall than a larger thinner one, mainly because I imagine the pole will smash itself into my handrails every once and a while, thinker wall pipe will be less likely to dent and buckle. The extrusion I got came with a couple of good size dents, one at either end about 4 feet in, We'll see how that it holds up. I hummed and haud about either riveting a plate over top of them or welding or popping them out but I figured any thing I did to it would only weaken the mast more, any thoughts? _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23321|23272|2010-05-18 18:55:37|brentswain38|Re: Stern tube construction|Sounds like with a twin keeler in a drying berth, with a dripless gland, you would have to burp her after every low tide. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > >>>>Having had great success with the grease filled tube, I don't see > any point in changing it, so far. > > I think it depends on the type of cutlass bearing and packing > gland/stuffing box whether this works or not. > > I was on a boat last year with a cutlass bearing which over heated and > burned up due to too much grease blocking water from flutes (channels) > in the bearing....the flutes were narrow (like slits from a hack saw > blade) and got clogged by the grease. Most drip-less seals require > water for cooling or lubrication and need to be "burped" to let the > water in after haulout or they may overheat and be destroyed. The > larger ones require water injection to ensure they get enough flow. > Even on an old style packing, I like to see a slight water drip or a > stainless shaft can heat up and get scored. I think with your system of > bronze oilite bearing, grease is fine, as long as it isn't a > super-thick, no wash-out grease like Lanacote. > > Paul > > > > > > | 23322|23286|2010-05-18 19:00:11|brentswain38|Re: rig rambling|One of my 36 footers at Pier 39 in Frisco used one of those. Worked out well. You don't save any weight in the taper, as they roll the taper in, making the wall thicknes at the narrow end much thicker, the same amount of material just squashed to a narrower diameter. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > About a year ago, someone on the Denver craigslist was selling aluminum traffic signal poles-the kind you see holding up street lights at city intersections. Extruded and tapered. Might be worth considering if you can find them.... > > --- On Tue, 5/18/10, Matt Malone wrote: > > > From: Matt Malone > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 10:10 AM > > > > > You are right, I forgot the factor of 4 in the formula.... the irrigation pipe is I = 35 ish, and my aluminum foil mast would have to be 25 inches in diameter for an I of 50. I even got the value of PI wrong. I should not write posts late at night... > > > I just bought a boat with slight mast damage. I had been weighing the orgami option, but the price for this one was right. So now I am looking at mast options in a serious way. That irrigation pipe really sounded good at first. Finding a good straight tree of the right species on my bush lot also sounds pretty good. Moitessier went a long way with a utility pole as a mast and cheap utility pole rigging. One has to keep the mass aloft low to prevent instability, but at least trees taper as you go up, unlike extruded aluminum sections. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:12:38 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling > > > > > > Matt, > > You are right, 0.094"(2.388mm) does not look good for 10" mast - thank you for pointing it out. As well, as it would be hard to find irrigation pipe with wall 0.125" or 0.25". Looks like this idea goes to a trashcan. > > My calculation was based on rO=5", rI=4.906" second moment of inertia I =(rO^4-rI^4)* 3.14/4. I used (may be incorrectly) rO as MAX radius for 10" tube, but formula looks OK. According it, I=35.8 > > Interesting comment about wood mast - I would agree on that one. Thanks! > > It would be nice to have mast choices calculated/available_for_evaluation in different PRACTICAL materials. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > There are extremes and 10 inches diameter and 0.094 inches thick is too extreme (btw, I get a second moment of area I, of 151 =(5.094^4 - 5^4) * 3.1415929 for that) > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23323|23286|2010-05-18 19:00:50|brentswain38|Re: rig rambling|I use 1 1/2 inch sch 40 aluminium pipe for my running pole, no problem and dirt cheap in the scrapyard. 2 inch sch 40 would be fine for the 36. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Same theory goes for running poles, I would rather build a smaller diameter pole with a thicker wall than a larger thinner one, mainly because I imagine the pole will smash itself into my handrails every once and a while, thinker wall pipe will be less likely to dent and buckle. > The extrusion I got came with a couple of good size dents, one at either end about 4 feet in, We'll see how that it holds up. I hummed and haud about either riveting a plate over top of them or welding or popping them out but I figured any thing I did to it would only weaken the mast more, any thoughts? > | 23324|23286|2010-05-19 10:30:04|theboilerflue|Re: rig rambling|Thats not a bad idea, I guess so, that one only has to prevent it from buckling at that spot, I might do that next time I have the rig down, it would seal the mast and the foam would dampen any sound too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > Hello Haiden, > > > If it is only 4 feet in from the ends, and you get into the ends, you might pop out the dents (from inside, with wooden faces on tools) and then fill a slug of about a 6 inch to 1 foot-long segment of the mast, covering the dents, with some tough, high-density foam, or low density plastic resin. You want something quite resistant to compressive forces, like something you could walk on a sheet of and not leave footprints, but not too hard, and certainly not brittle. The idea is, the lateral buckling forces are tiny compared to the axial load, and just the right bulk reinforcement slug inside the mast will hold back buckling at that point. You do not want something too stiff or right near the edge you create a stress concentration. In fact, a nice miniscus effect is good from a poured material. Use a close-fitting block to act as the dam. Careful with anything that heats as it cures, you can get a runaway reaction -- pour it in a thin layer at a time. Of course if you are going to run electrical wires, put the conduit through first or prepare to drill a hole through the middle of the plug after it hardens. > > > > I fill my problems with West Epoxy, similar to the stuff we used to pot test pieces into end plates in the shells lab I worked in. My favourite is to drill two tiny holes into the area, one downhill, the other at the most up-hill spot on the void to allow air to escape. Then I make a volcano-like thing out of pasticine and put it on the lower hole, and carefully pour in epoxy in layers until it starts to come out the top hole, then I cover the top hole with packing tape. Two holes of 1/16" through a skin backed up with epoxy is pretty strong. I used this method for all my deck core repairs -- removed deteriorated end-grain balsa and replaced it with epoxy. > > > > At the cost of a few pounds, that section of mast might be stronger than anywhere else. > > > > Matt > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: haidan@... > Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:51:02 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling > > > > > > > Same theory goes for running poles, I would rather build a smaller diameter pole with a thicker wall than a larger thinner one, mainly because I imagine the pole will smash itself into my handrails every once and a while, thinker wall pipe will be less likely to dent and buckle. > The extrusion I got came with a couple of good size dents, one at either end about 4 feet in, We'll see how that it holds up. I hummed and haud about either riveting a plate over top of them or welding or popping them out but I figured any thing I did to it would only weaken the mast more, any thoughts? > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23325|23272|2010-05-19 10:34:47|theboilerflue|Re: Stern tube construction|That's why mine came with the air vent at the forward end, that's run up above the waterline to allow for this burping. I seem to remember from the installation guide, something saying to take care to avoid getting grease on the carbon seal. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > Sounds like with a twin keeler in a drying berth, with a dripless gland, you would have to burp her after every low tide. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > >>>>Having had great success with the grease filled tube, I don't see > > any point in changing it, so far. > > > > I think it depends on the type of cutlass bearing and packing > > gland/stuffing box whether this works or not. > > > > I was on a boat last year with a cutlass bearing which over heated and > > burned up due to too much grease blocking water from flutes (channels) > > in the bearing....the flutes were narrow (like slits from a hack saw > > blade) and got clogged by the grease. Most drip-less seals require > > water for cooling or lubrication and need to be "burped" to let the > > water in after haulout or they may overheat and be destroyed. The > > larger ones require water injection to ensure they get enough flow. > > Even on an old style packing, I like to see a slight water drip or a > > stainless shaft can heat up and get scored. I think with your system of > > bronze oilite bearing, grease is fine, as long as it isn't a > > super-thick, no wash-out grease like Lanacote. > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > | 23326|23286|2010-05-19 12:31:43|theboilerflue|Re: rig rambling|Yeah I'll probably use 2" sch 40 for mine. Made up a running pole for Paul on the Eos last week we used the ends of what we were told was an aluminium drive shaft, it had sort of half a universal joint on each end that formed nice jaws ( http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/p267_jaguar_dana_44_rear_differential_flange_yoke_1310_series.html ) for a running pole, they were aluminum I just cut them down to the size of the pipe and welded them on, he was using 4" sch 20 for his pole. The aluminium shaft that we cut the ends off of was the strongest aluminium I've ever encountered, thin walled 5 inch pipe, we had two 6" lengths of it and you could jump on it and not collapse the pipe it was amazing for a aluminium pipe with an 1/8" wall, it was more like steel, don't know what kind of aluminium it was but the ends were welded to it and the ends welded to the 6061 pipe pretty easy. Google search seems to turn up aluminium driveshafts made of 6061-T6. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I use 1 1/2 inch sch 40 aluminium pipe for my running pole, no problem and dirt cheap in the scrapyard. 2 inch sch 40 would be fine for the 36. > | 23327|23286|2010-05-19 14:33:26|Andrew Sullivan|Re: rig rambling|I always wondered how they got the taper!!!! --- On Tue, 5/18/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 4:56 PM   One of my 36 footers at Pier 39 in Frisco used one of those. Worked out well. You don't save any weight in the taper, as they roll the taper in, making the wall thicknes at the narrow end much thicker, the same amount of material just squashed to a narrower diameter. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > About a year ago, someone on the Denver craigslist was selling aluminum traffic signal poles-the kind you see holding up street lights at city intersections. Extruded and tapered. Might be worth considering if you can find them.... > > --- On Tue, 5/18/10, Matt Malone wrote: > > > From: Matt Malone > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 10:10 AM > > > > > You are right, I forgot the factor of 4 in the formula.... the irrigation pipe is I = 35 ish, and my aluminum foil mast would have to be 25 inches in diameter for an I of 50. I even got the value of PI wrong. I should not write posts late at night... > > > I just bought a boat with slight mast damage. I had been weighing the orgami option, but the price for this one was right. So now I am looking at mast options in a serious way. That irrigation pipe really sounded good at first. Finding a good straight tree of the right species on my bush lot also sounds pretty good. Moitessier went a long way with a utility pole as a mast and cheap utility pole rigging. One has to keep the mass aloft low to prevent instability, but at least trees taper as you go up, unlike extruded aluminum sections. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:12:38 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling > > > > > > Matt, > > You are right, 0.094"(2.388mm) does not look good for 10" mast - thank you for pointing it out. As well, as it would be hard to find irrigation pipe with wall 0.125" or 0.25". Looks like this idea goes to a trashcan. > > My calculation was based on rO=5", rI=4.906" second moment of inertia I =(rO^4-rI^4)* 3.14/4. I used (may be incorrectly) rO as MAX radius for 10" tube, but formula looks OK. According it, I=35.8 > > Interesting comment about wood mast - I would agree on that one. Thanks! > > It would be nice to have mast choices calculated/available_for_evaluation in different PRACTICAL materials. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > There are extremes and 10 inches diameter and 0.094 inches thick is too extreme (btw, I get a second moment of area I, of 151 =(5.094^4 - 5^4) * 3.1415929 for that) > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23328|23286|2010-05-20 00:00:21|Matt Malone|Re: Light poles for masts|I was in a scrap yard today, buying used but good condition steel. BTW, I paid $.35 / pound -- how much do your scrap yards charge ? Anyway, they had 5 hollow metal light poles, looked like 40+ feet. Of the ones that I think were steel, one was octagonal, two were round. All three were rolled / folded and welded -- you could tell on the inside. The aluminum ones, I could not tell, the ends were too far up on a pile of scrap to see if they were thicker at the small end. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mr_lugnuts_2007@... Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:33:16 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling I always wondered how they got the taper!!!! --- On Tue, 5/18/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 4:56 PM One of my 36 footers at Pier 39 in Frisco used one of those. Worked out well. You don't save any weight in the taper, as they roll the taper in, making the wall thicknes at the narrow end much thicker, the same amount of material just squashed to a narrower diameter. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > About a year ago, someone on the Denver craigslist was selling aluminum traffic signal poles-the kind you see holding up street lights at city intersections. Extruded and tapered. Might be worth considering if you can find them.... > > --- On Tue, 5/18/10, Matt Malone wrote: > > > From: Matt Malone > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 10:10 AM > > > > > You are right, I forgot the factor of 4 in the formula.... the irrigation pipe is I = 35 ish, and my aluminum foil mast would have to be 25 inches in diameter for an I of 50. I even got the value of PI wrong. I should not write posts late at night... > > > I just bought a boat with slight mast damage. I had been weighing the orgami option, but the price for this one was right. So now I am looking at mast options in a serious way. That irrigation pipe really sounded good at first. Finding a good straight tree of the right species on my bush lot also sounds pretty good. Moitessier went a long way with a utility pole as a mast and cheap utility pole rigging. One has to keep the mass aloft low to prevent instability, but at least trees taper as you go up, unlike extruded aluminum sections. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:12:38 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling > > > > > > Matt, > > You are right, 0.094"(2.388mm) does not look good for 10" mast - thank you for pointing it out. As well, as it would be hard to find irrigation pipe with wall 0.125" or 0.25". Looks like this idea goes to a trashcan. > > My calculation was based on rO=5", rI=4.906" second moment of inertia I =(rO^4-rI^4)* 3.14/4. I used (may be incorrectly) rO as MAX radius for 10" tube, but formula looks OK. According it, I=35.8 > > Interesting comment about wood mast - I would agree on that one. Thanks! > > It would be nice to have mast choices calculated/available_for_evaluation in different PRACTICAL materials. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > There are extremes and 10 inches diameter and 0.094 inches thick is too extreme (btw, I get a second moment of area I, of 151 =(5.094^4 - 5^4) * 3.1415929 for that) > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23329|1325|2010-05-20 04:00:21|westotters|Re: Tug Plans|Hi- i am new to this forum- I also want to build a tug- I have designed one and I am hoping to explore this methods enough to feel comfortable to do it--i have plans drawn up and i could send you them free of charge. I can alter some of the features for a more sea-going tug, if need be, as this one is designed for inland and the sheltered areas of the great lakes. If anyone wants to discuss tug hulls and origami- im keen on a tugboat hull done this way... if one of the moderators will allow me, they would need to have the attachments settings enabled. I could post my roughed out designs for people to view on a single chine tug? Doug| 23330|1325|2010-05-20 07:05:22|David Frantz|Re: Tug Plans|I must admit to a soft spot for tugboats though I've never been on one. One thing I would suggest though is to identify the plans as either experimental or fully developed. You don't want people to think an unproven design is a viable ship. Dave On 5/19/10 7:14 PM000, westotters wrote: > Hi- i am new to this forum- I also want to build a tug- I have designed one and I am hoping to explore this methods enough to feel comfortable to do it--i have plans drawn up and i could send you them free of charge. I can alter some of the features for a more sea-going tug, if need be, as this one is designed for inland and the sheltered areas of the great lakes. > > If anyone wants to discuss tug hulls and origami- im keen on a tugboat hull done this way... > if one of the moderators will allow me, they would need to have the attachments settings enabled. I could post my roughed out designs for people to view on a single chine tug? > > > Doug > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 23331|1325|2010-05-20 07:54:00|Doug W|Re: Tug Plans|Yes i agree -= the tug plans would be called "experimental" until prven. I guess i would have to build it and do sea trials first? Im interested in seeing how the design could be done in origami. Brent swain says it is pretty straightforward-- i must admit i hope it is but it looks more difficult than a design like a sailboat how do you get the two side to be mirror images??..what happens if you break a plate? _________________________________________________________________ Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23332|1325|2010-05-20 09:40:43|Aaron Williams|Re: Tug Plans|Doug Go into the files section and add a file called origami tugs then upload the design there. That would be better than attachments. Aaron --- On Wed, 5/19/10, westotters wrote: From: westotters Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tug Plans To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 3:14 PM   Hi- i am new to this forum- I also want to build a tug- I have designed one and I am hoping to explore this methods enough to feel comfortable to do it--i have plans drawn up and i could send you them free of charge. I can alter some of the features for a more sea-going tug, if need be, as this one is designed for inland and the sheltered areas of the great lakes. If anyone wants to discuss tug hulls and origami- im keen on a tugboat hull done this way... if one of the moderators will allow me, they would need to have the attachments settings enabled. I could post my roughed out designs for people to view on a single chine tug? Doug [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23333|22|2010-05-20 09:52:39|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /propwash # 1.jpg Uploaded by : westotters Description : rough sketch waterline profile You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/propwash%20%23%201.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles Regards, westotters | 23334|23334|2010-05-20 10:26:09|wild_explorer|40 footer modeling|Need an opinion what could be pro/cons about open type deck setup (no cockpit). Or what need to be changed (sailboat)? http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_v28_v6.JPG| 23335|23334|2010-05-20 11:14:15|Gord Schnell|Re: 40 footer modeling|In my opinion, having no cockpit is unsafe, especially in heavy weather. Gord On 20-May-10, at 7:24 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > Need an opinion what could be pro/cons about open type deck setup > (no cockpit). Or what need to be changed (sailboat)? > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_v28_v6.JPG > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23336|23286|2010-05-20 12:43:57|theboilerflue|Re: Light poles for masts|last week at ABC in campbell river they were charging 30 cents for mild and 1.80 for stainless, we did however manage to disguise a surface rusty length of stainless amongst our galv pipe - less like stealing more "price adjusting". Harpers/budget steel/steel pacific still charging the ridiculous price of 3.25 for stainless all over the island, while they continue selling the last few scraps of our resources to China for peanuts, eventually there's just going to be nothing left and everyone will have to pay full price for shiny new re-smelted Chinese metal - think of the energy just used for transportation, every chunk of metal must have traveled around the world at least once by now. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I was in a scrap yard today, buying used but good condition steel. BTW, I paid $.35 / pound -- how much do your scrap yards charge ? > > Anyway, they had 5 hollow metal light poles, looked like 40+ feet. Of the ones that I think were steel, one was octagonal, two were round. All three were rolled / folded and welded -- you could tell on the inside. The aluminum ones, I could not tell, the ends were too far up on a pile of scrap to see if they were thicker at the small end. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mr_lugnuts_2007@... > Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:33:16 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I always wondered how they got the taper!!!! > > > > --- On Tue, 5/18/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 4:56 PM > > > > > > > > One of my 36 footers at Pier 39 in Frisco used one of those. Worked out well. You don't save any weight in the taper, as they roll the taper in, making the wall thicknes at the narrow end much thicker, the same amount of material just squashed to a narrower diameter. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > > > > > About a year ago, someone on the Denver craigslist was selling aluminum traffic signal poles-the kind you see holding up street lights at city intersections. Extruded and tapered. Might be worth considering if you can find them.... > > > > > > --- On Tue, 5/18/10, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Malone > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 10:10 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are right, I forgot the factor of 4 in the formula.... the irrigation pipe is I = 35 ish, and my aluminum foil mast would have to be 25 inches in diameter for an I of 50. I even got the value of PI wrong. I should not write posts late at night... > > > > > > > > > I just bought a boat with slight mast damage. I had been weighing the orgami option, but the price for this one was right. So now I am looking at mast options in a serious way. That irrigation pipe really sounded good at first. Finding a good straight tree of the right species on my bush lot also sounds pretty good. Moitessier went a long way with a utility pole as a mast and cheap utility pole rigging. One has to keep the mass aloft low to prevent instability, but at least trees taper as you go up, unlike extruded aluminum sections. > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: williswildest@ > > > Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:12:38 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, > > > > > > You are right, 0.094"(2.388mm) does not look good for 10" mast - thank you for pointing it out. As well, as it would be hard to find irrigation pipe with wall 0.125" or 0.25". Looks like this idea goes to a trashcan. > > > > > > My calculation was based on rO=5", rI=4.906" second moment of inertia I =(rO^4-rI^4)* 3.14/4. I used (may be incorrectly) rO as MAX radius for 10" tube, but formula looks OK. According it, I=35.8 > > > > > > Interesting comment about wood mast - I would agree on that one. Thanks! > > > > > > It would be nice to have mast choices calculated/available_for_evaluation in different PRACTICAL materials. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > There are extremes and 10 inches diameter and 0.094 inches thick is too extreme (btw, I get a second moment of area I, of 151 =(5.094^4 - 5^4) * 3.1415929 for that) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. > > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23337|23334|2010-05-20 13:02:18|Norm Moore|Re: 40 footer modeling|I agree with Gord that no cockpit would be very unsafe, but... Here is a link to Sparkmen and Stephens site where they have made the draft of a book the late Rod Stephens was writing before he died freely available. I mention this because in it he advocated for replacing cockpit coamings with an open rail system so the cockpit only consisted of the foot well with people sitting on the deck or at cabin top level. He describes several advantages, 1) it dramatically decreases the volume of water the cockpit can hold so it will drain away quicker 2) It often raises the cockpit so it drains away from a point higher above the water level 3) it provides a solid rail that can be gripped in rough conditions for climbing in and out of the cockpit, and 4) it naturally drains water from the seats He offers numerous other suggestions for detail design also. Here's the link: http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ Norm Moore 559-645-5314 ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, May 20, 2010 7:24:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] 40 footer modeling Need an opinion what could be pro/cons about open type deck setup (no cockpit). Or what need to be changed (sailboat)? http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_v28_v6.JPG [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23338|23286|2010-05-20 13:31:04|Mark Hamill|Re: Light poles for masts|Matt: I think there has been a fair bit of discussion on the Yahoo Junk Rig group about light poles--might be worth checking there. MarkH| 23339|23334|2010-05-20 13:35:37|theboilerflue|Re: 40 footer modeling|I don't really see any need in having a foot well cockpit, however you haver to think about what do you really need in a cockpit? You need to make sure that there is something to hold you in the cockpit when a wave tries to wash you out, something like coamings or seats - anything to hang on to with your feet/hands/body before you get to the rails (good rails too), imagine being knocked down, the boat suddenly turning 90 degrees (or more) - what's going to stop you from falling out? Maybe your tether but is that going to stop you from being thrown 3 feet into your solid railings, ideally one would want something closer so as not to build up much inertia before smashing into it, something within arms reach. A foot well gives you something to brace your feet against when well healed over, just like a cabin does well going forward (vs. flush deck) A place to sit and see and over the cabin while steering is nice too. A place to toss things into in a hurry, like right before that accidental jybe like gps, binoculars, winch handles, charts, drinks where they aren't going to get washed out easily is also nice, my foot well is nice for that as long as whatever it is that I drop is larger than the scuppers it won't get washed out very easily, unless I'm taking large waves I guess. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Need an opinion what could be pro/cons about open type deck setup (no cockpit). Or what need to be changed (sailboat)? > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_v28_v6.JPG > | 23340|23286|2010-05-20 13:35:43|sitefix|Re: rig rambling|OK, About 3 months ago I was wondering through my local salvage yard. Looking for some stainless to practice on. I spied a stack of gray pipe in the weeds off the beaten trail. I did not approach to closely, as they where big and I was looking for some small scraps. So, as I was weighing out I inquired as to "them pipes about 6" or so by forty foot or so and the counter lady sez, oh, you must mean the 6" x 1/8" x forty irrigation pipe". So, me thinks to kick it around a bit. Now, it took a few days since someone asked me where I got my info, momma at 78 was in hospital with gall bladderectomy, but I finds me my trusty dial caliper and off I goes. After tromping through the mud and weeds, passing some 16 inch stainless pipe(great looking barbque material" I return to the weeds and alluminium pipes. Ahah----it be---- 6" ID with a 1/4" wall for a 6.5" OD diameter about 40 foot long ok maybe 38-39sh, some shrubs were in the way. So, I inquire all over again, only this time to the owner and he sez, oh yeh, that be some structure steel, probably 6061 or 6063 but he sez he has a gun to shoot it with that sometimes will tell him what it is but he didn't think it was 5000 series. So, it turns out that it is available for $13.78 per foot, in my tax free state. Me wonders if it is too heavy???? Hmmmm, is 6000 series ok for a boom??? There were also some 4 and 5 inch sections, but i didn't notice any forty footers. Sorry about any confusion. 3/8" SS rod is about 79cents per foot. More or less $2.30 lb. Him, stainless barbque????? I did take some photos if anyone be needing such a perspective. Parr --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > sitefix, where did you get information that irrigation pipe has 1/8" (0.125) wall? I only found 1 company making pipes with 0.125" and 0.250" wall. All others usually make them for 6" pipes with 0.051, 0.058 & 0.083", for 8" pipes with 0.051, 0.064, 0.083 & 0.094. > > Do you have the name of the company who makes it? Interesting idea if it has needed strength. Irrigation pipes are available in 30 and 40' length and made from alloy 3004-H26. I am looking for more information to compare it with 6" Sch40 aluminum pipe. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > > > now, if someone would just answer the 40' mast question that I have been following. there is a mess of 6"x1/8"X40'aluminum irrigation pipe just up the road waiting for me. > > w3par 73's > > > | 23341|23286|2010-05-20 17:44:20|sitefix|Re: rig rambling|Sorry, before i get mobbed. i was meaning structural aluminium. please forgive the bad grammar and spelling. where / wear/ were could someone tell me please, why does not forty have a u in it like four???? no, i personally do not worship m. webster.(who dat???) Parr ever notice how stupidity seems to have it's own gravitational forces??? . > > Ahah----it be---- 6" ID with a 1/4" wall for a 6.5" OD diameter about 40 foot long ok maybe 38-39sh, some shrubs were in the way. > > So, I inquire all over again, only this time to the owner and he sez, oh yeh, that be some structure steel, probably 6061 or 6063 but he sez he has a gun to shoot it with that sometimes will tell him what it is but he didn't think it was 5000 series. > | 23342|1325|2010-05-20 18:03:25|brentswain38|Re: Tug Plans|Designing a tug is far more forgiving than designing a sailboat. You don't have to worry about ability to carry sail etc. Just float roughly right, and you use far more power than she can handle empty, for pushing power. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Doug > Go into the files section and add a file called origami tugs then upload the design there. > That would be better than attachments. > Aaron > > --- On Wed, 5/19/10, westotters wrote: > > > From: westotters > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tug Plans > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 3:14 PM > > >   > > > > Hi- i am new to this forum- I also want to build a tug- I have designed one and I am hoping to explore this methods enough to feel comfortable to do it--i have plans drawn up and i could send you them free of charge. I can alter some of the features for a more sea-going tug, if need be, as this one is designed for inland and the sheltered areas of the great lakes. > > If anyone wants to discuss tug hulls and origami- im keen on a tugboat hull done this way... > if one of the moderators will allow me, they would need to have the attachments settings enabled. I could post my roughed out designs for people to view on a single chine tug? > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23343|23334|2010-05-20 18:10:12|brentswain38|Re: 40 footer modeling|I think sailing a boat with no cockpit in rough weather would be like trying to straddle a whale. Easy to fall off. I think it would be a big mistake to eliminate the cockpit. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I don't really see any need in having a foot well cockpit, however you haver to think about what do you really need in a cockpit? > You need to make sure that there is something to hold you in the cockpit when a wave tries to wash you out, something like coamings or seats - anything to hang on to with your feet/hands/body before you get to the rails (good rails too), imagine being knocked down, the boat suddenly turning 90 degrees (or more) - what's going to stop you from falling out? Maybe your tether but is that going to stop you from being thrown 3 feet into your solid railings, ideally one would want something closer so as not to build up much inertia before smashing into it, something within arms reach. A foot well gives you something to brace your feet against when well healed over, just like a cabin does well going forward (vs. flush deck) > A place to sit and see and over the cabin while steering is nice too. > A place to toss things into in a hurry, like right before that accidental jybe like gps, binoculars, winch handles, charts, drinks where they aren't going to get washed out easily is also nice, my foot well is nice for that as long as whatever it is that I drop is larger than the scuppers it won't get washed out very easily, unless I'm taking large waves I guess. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Need an opinion what could be pro/cons about open type deck setup (no cockpit). Or what need to be changed (sailboat)? > > > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_v28_v6.JPG > > > | 23344|23286|2010-05-20 18:10:26|brentswain38|Re: rig rambling|$2.30 a lb for new stainless, compared to $3.25 a lb for scrap at Harpers. I always suspected they were charging more than retail for scrap. Duncan Iron works used to buy at Harpers until they found they were paying more than retail. Now they don't set foot in Harpers yard any more. Does ABC have more scrap ss coming in lately, as Harpers does? They were pretty bare last time I was there. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > OK, > About 3 months ago I was wondering through my local salvage yard. Looking for some stainless to practice on. I spied a stack of gray pipe in the weeds off the beaten trail. I did not approach to closely, as they where big and I was looking for some small scraps. > > So, as I was weighing out I inquired as to "them pipes about 6" or so by forty foot or so and the counter lady sez, oh, you must mean the 6" x 1/8" x forty irrigation pipe". So, me thinks to kick it around a bit. > > Now, it took a few days since someone asked me where I got my info, momma at 78 was in hospital with gall bladderectomy, but I finds me my trusty dial caliper and off I goes. > > After tromping through the mud and weeds, passing some 16 inch stainless pipe(great looking barbque material" I return to the weeds and alluminium pipes. > > Ahah----it be---- 6" ID with a 1/4" wall for a 6.5" OD diameter about 40 foot long ok maybe 38-39sh, some shrubs were in the way. > > So, I inquire all over again, only this time to the owner and he sez, oh yeh, that be some structure steel, probably 6061 or 6063 but he sez he has a gun to shoot it with that sometimes will tell him what it is but he didn't think it was 5000 series. > > So, it turns out that it is available for $13.78 per foot, in my tax free state. > > Me wonders if it is too heavy???? Hmmmm, is 6000 series ok for a boom??? There were also some 4 and 5 inch sections, but i didn't notice any forty footers. > > Sorry about any confusion. 3/8" SS rod is about 79cents per foot. More or less $2.30 lb. Him, stainless barbque????? > > I did take some photos if anyone be needing such a perspective. > > Parr > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > sitefix, where did you get information that irrigation pipe has 1/8" (0.125) wall? I only found 1 company making pipes with 0.125" and 0.250" wall. All others usually make them for 6" pipes with 0.051, 0.058 & 0.083", for 8" pipes with 0.051, 0.064, 0.083 & 0.094. > > > > Do you have the name of the company who makes it? Interesting idea if it has needed strength. Irrigation pipes are available in 30 and 40' length and made from alloy 3004-H26. I am looking for more information to compare it with 6" Sch40 aluminum pipe. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > > > > > now, if someone would just answer the 40' mast question that I have been following. there is a mess of 6"x1/8"X40'aluminum irrigation pipe just up the road waiting for me. > > > w3par 73's > > > > > > | 23345|1325|2010-05-20 20:21:10|westotters|Re: Tug Plans|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Doug > Go into the files section and add a file called origami tugs then upload the design there. > That would be better than attachments. > Aaron > Thanks Aaron- I tried to do that today but i was unsuccessful- I have a slow computer due to the fact that i live in the country. i dont have high speed here--but tomorrow i promise ill upload the profile--Brent has seen them already- it is my first real tug design- there are a couple unfair areas since i dont have a good batten but ill post the profiles and you guys can see if it tweaks anyones interest- just to qualify - i have studied plans, naval architecture, books, ordered countless plans online and offline- add infinitum -i have worked on tugs and built five previous boats- one in steel. all from my own designs and never had any problems and all...of course for me this ups the ante a little but, as Brent mentioned tugboats are forgiving. And thank goodness too since i am not a sailboat guy i consider myself a tugboat navigator first and a designer second...and although i love sailing and had at olne time designed some tri hulls- i am a tug guy, and i learned only what i needed to design a fairly decent tug. But i took elements from all of my favorite designs and built it into one design i am happy with. the idea for me is to get on the water asap.| 23346|1325|2010-05-20 20:23:56|westotters|Re: Tug Plans|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Doug > Go into the files section and add a file called origami tugs then upload the design there. > That would be better than attachments. > Aaron > Thanks Aaron- I tried to do that today but i was unsuccessful- I have a slow computer due to the fact that i live in the country. i dont have high speed here--but tomorrow i promise ill upload the profile--Brent has seen them already- it is my first real tug design- there are a couple unfair areas since i dont have a good batten but ill post the profiles and you guys can see if it tweaks anyones interest- just to qualify - i have studied plans, naval architecture, books, ordered countless plans online and offline- add infinitum -i have worked on tugs and built five previous boats- one in steel. all from my own designs and never had any problems and all...of course for me this ups the ante a little but, as Brent mentioned tugboats are forgiving. And thank goodness too since i am not a sailboat guy i consider myself a tugboat navigator first and a designer second...and although i love sailing and had at olne time designed some tri hulls- i am a tug guy, and i learned only what i needed to design a fairly decent tug. But i took elements from all of my favorite designs and built it into one design i am happy with. the idea for me is to get on the water asap.| 23347|1325|2010-05-20 20:28:07|westotters|Re: Tug Plans|I think tug design must be one of the easier designs to do...I really like the idea of the origami method because it could mean thicker plate. How do you know when your bending the hull to shape, that its always in fair?| 23348|1325|2010-05-20 22:48:45|arctichusky44|Re: Tug Plans|Brent et al, This is exactly what you preach againgst Brent, giving opinions without experience behind the comment. I spent my life on or around tugs and believe me or any other tow-boater, the designs and accompanying attributes differ as much as sailboats. Build her too narrow and the first time the tow goes off to the side, you will be nipped by the towline and over you will go. Shallow tugs for the rivers,deep for the ocean towing, get that prop down where it can grab clean water. Stick with sailboats or seek a proper naval designer with towboat experience.Frank --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Designing a tug is far more forgiving than designing a sailboat. You don't have to worry about ability to carry sail etc. Just float roughly right, and you use far more power than she can handle empty, for pushing power. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Doug > > Go into the files section and add a file called origami tugs then upload the design there. > > That would be better than attachments. > > Aaron > > > > --- On Wed, 5/19/10, westotters wrote: > > > > > > From: westotters > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tug Plans > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 3:14 PM > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > Hi- i am new to this forum- I also want to build a tug- I have designed one and I am hoping to explore this methods enough to feel comfortable to do it--i have plans drawn up and i could send you them free of charge. I can alter some of the features for a more sea-going tug, if need be, as this one is designed for inland and the sheltered areas of the great lakes. > > > > If anyone wants to discuss tug hulls and origami- im keen on a tugboat hull done this way... > > if one of the moderators will allow me, they would need to have the attachments settings enabled. I could post my roughed out designs for people to view on a single chine tug? > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 23349|23334|2010-05-21 01:20:27|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Thanks for all replies - waiting for more comments. I have no sailboat experience (ship's experience does not count in this case). That why I ask all this "stupid" questions. I appreciate all advices from practical as well as engineering points of view. Final setup for cabin, wheelhouse, cockpit or "pseudo-cockpit" will depend on most acceptable "for ME" floor plan (including engine placement) and headroom (all the way through). This long wheelhouse was an attempt to increase living space below. It will, probably, take the same amount of steel – just different shape. So, weight should not be a problem. This what I see so far: dip and long cockpit is not really necessary (could be wrong) it should be some structure to prevent water to hit/flood main hatch and give the support to a person exiting/entering main hatch. At this time, main hatch frame is raised about 5" above the deck. Question here: It is recommended to use 4" bulwark pipe and weld deck right below it. Which leaves the pipe to hold water from draining and no room to put scuppers. Does it need to lower the deck to make the space for scuppers between deck and bulwark pipe? Deck is supposed to be higher at the centerline, so 5" raised hatch's frame should OK to prevent water in – need to verify it. Door width (my modification) looks OK to put engine in - about 24", (to narrow for me?) Door heights (my modification) – about 24" (looks too low for me?), but wheelhouse has a slope forward. Need to test it. There is need to have something to secure the person on a deck in this area during bad weather conditions and when boat heels. May be side lockers 8-12" tall? How wide? It might be used as seats too. Wheelhouse is about 3 ft. tall - too low? It might be not enough room for transom propane tank locker – there is only 3 ft from door hatch to the transom rails. Or it will require to reposition wheelhouse and reduce inside room (one of the options). Extra grab-rails need to be present on the wheelhouse Need to avoid right angles on locker bases, avoid right angles on wheelhouse's back in transverse-to-longitudinal direction. I plan to make side (hull) rails about 4ft high. How wide need to make "pseudo-cockpit"? What is the advantage of deep long cockpit beside of the option to sit there and have a good time with friends during good weather? To drop things in a hurry into it and safe feeling for person who sit there when boat rolls was mentioned already. What else?| 23350|1325|2010-05-21 01:36:51|wild_explorer|Re: Tug Plans|I do not think there is an "easy" design of anything. It depends how seriously someone takes it. I believe, the original question was if it is possible or not to convert plans the person have to origami technique. Without seeing all profiles for this tag - it is just a guess. Is it possible to compromise on something in that design? Origami has its limitations too. What is acceptable in one case, may not be acceptable in another. So, more information needed.| 23351|23334|2010-05-21 02:40:04|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Disregard my question about scuppers. My mistake in reading Brent's book. Boat has 4" bulwark (I took a look at actual boat's pictures - it clarified that subject).| 23352|23334|2010-05-21 07:24:28|scott|Re: 40 footer modeling|My downeast 38 is designed this way.. just a foot well in a large aft deck area. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > I agree with Gord that no cockpit would be very unsafe, but... Here is a link to Sparkmen and Stephens site where they have made the draft of a book the late Rod Stephens was writing before he died freely available. I mention this because in it he advocated for replacing cockpit coamings with an open rail system so the cockpit only consisted of the foot well with people sitting on the deck or at cabin top level. He describes several advantages, 1) it dramatically decreases the volume of water the cockpit can hold so it will drain away quicker 2) It often raises the cockpit so it drains away from a point higher above the water level 3) it provides a solid rail that can be gripped in rough conditions for climbing in and out of the cockpit, and 4) it naturally drains water from the seats He offers numerous other suggestions for detail design also. Here's the link: > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ > > Norm Moore > 559-645-5314 > > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, May 20, 2010 7:24:41 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] 40 footer modeling > > > Need an opinion what could be pro/cons about open type deck setup (no cockpit). Or what need to be changed (sailboat)? > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_v28_v6.JPG > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23353|23334|2010-05-21 10:14:02|maxcamirand|Re: 40 footer modeling|Many successful cruising designs don't have cockpits, like most of Colvin's boats, and Jester, for example. In Jester's case, there was no need to go on deck to work the rig. Everything could be done from the hatch. I have no experience either way, but it's obvious that aside from its advantages and flooding issues, one must consider that a cockpit robs a lot of interior room. Here I paraphrase a designer (can't remember which, maybe Colvin): The cockpit doesn't only rob its own volume from an interior, but also makes the space below and around it far less usable. In my boat, for example (a Colvin Gazelle), having a center cockpit would mean that instead of having a spacious engine room with a lot of space for accessible storage and systems, I would have to crawl to check the oil on the engine. Having an aft cockpit would eliminate the comfortable aft cabin with double bed. I'm not saying a cockpit has no place. Only that it's a trade-off. Regards, -Max --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > My downeast 38 is designed this way.. just a foot well in a large aft deck area. > scott > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > I agree with Gord that no cockpit would be very unsafe, but... Here is a link to Sparkmen and Stephens site where they have made the draft of a book the late Rod Stephens was writing before he died freely available. I mention this because in it he advocated for replacing cockpit coamings with an open rail system so the cockpit only consisted of the foot well with people sitting on the deck or at cabin top level. He describes several advantages, 1) it dramatically decreases the volume of water the cockpit can hold so it will drain away quicker 2) It often raises the cockpit so it drains away from a point higher above the water level 3) it provides a solid rail that can be gripped in rough conditions for climbing in and out of the cockpit, and 4) it naturally drains water from the seats He offers numerous other suggestions for detail design also. Here's the link: > > > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ > > > > Norm Moore > > 559-645-5314 > > > > > > | 23354|1325|2010-05-21 13:21:37|Carl Anderson|updated pictures|Our web page has been updated with more pictures. What might be of interest is some pictures of an amazing scrap yard. cheers, Carl sv-mom.com| 23355|1325|2010-05-21 14:34:30|brentswain38|Re: Tug Plans|Fair edges to as plate make a fair hull. They are only as fair as the edges , unless you don't mind welding across gaps. Plate edges should run in smooth curves --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "westotters" wrote: > > > I think tug design must be one of the easier designs to do...I really like the idea of the origami method because it could mean thicker plate. How do you know when your bending the hull to shape, that its always in fair? > | 23356|1325|2010-05-21 14:36:29|brentswain38|Re: Tug Plans|Why don't you simply post your criteria as you have just done, to some extent. Give us the rest. That's what these sites are for. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "arctichusky44" wrote: > > Brent et al, This is exactly what you preach againgst Brent, giving opinions without experience behind the comment. I spent my life on or around tugs and believe me or any other tow-boater, the designs and accompanying attributes differ as much as sailboats. Build her too narrow and the first time the tow goes off to the side, you will be nipped by the towline and over you will go. Shallow tugs for the rivers,deep for the ocean towing, get that prop down where it can grab clean water. Stick with sailboats or seek a proper naval designer with towboat experience.Frank > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Designing a tug is far more forgiving than designing a sailboat. You don't have to worry about ability to carry sail etc. Just float roughly right, and you use far more power than she can handle empty, for pushing power. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > > Doug > > > Go into the files section and add a file called origami tugs then upload the design there. > > > That would be better than attachments. > > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Wed, 5/19/10, westotters wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: westotters > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tug Plans > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 3:14 PM > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi- i am new to this forum- I also want to build a tug- I have designed one and I am hoping to explore this methods enough to feel comfortable to do it--i have plans drawn up and i could send you them free of charge. I can alter some of the features for a more sea-going tug, if need be, as this one is designed for inland and the sheltered areas of the great lakes. > > > > > > If anyone wants to discuss tug hulls and origami- im keen on a tugboat hull done this way... > > > if one of the moderators will allow me, they would need to have the attachments settings enabled. I could post my roughed out designs for people to view on a single chine tug? > > > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 23357|23286|2010-05-21 14:45:56|theboilerflue|Re: rig rambling|No nothing extraordinary to speak of, still pretty bare. One of these days though somebody will be stripping that now defunct elk falls pulp mill.... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > $2.30 a lb for new stainless, compared to $3.25 a lb for scrap at Harpers. I always suspected they were charging more than retail for scrap. Duncan Iron works used to buy at Harpers until they found they were paying more than retail. Now they don't set foot in Harpers yard any more. > Does ABC have more scrap ss coming in lately, as Harpers does? They were pretty bare last time I was there. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > > > OK, > > About 3 months ago I was wondering through my local salvage yard. Looking for some stainless to practice on. I spied a stack of gray pipe in the weeds off the beaten trail. I did not approach to closely, as they where big and I was looking for some small scraps. > > > > So, as I was weighing out I inquired as to "them pipes about 6" or so by forty foot or so and the counter lady sez, oh, you must mean the 6" x 1/8" x forty irrigation pipe". So, me thinks to kick it around a bit. > > > > Now, it took a few days since someone asked me where I got my info, momma at 78 was in hospital with gall bladderectomy, but I finds me my trusty dial caliper and off I goes. > > > > After tromping through the mud and weeds, passing some 16 inch stainless pipe(great looking barbque material" I return to the weeds and alluminium pipes. > > > > Ahah----it be---- 6" ID with a 1/4" wall for a 6.5" OD diameter about 40 foot long ok maybe 38-39sh, some shrubs were in the way. > > > > So, I inquire all over again, only this time to the owner and he sez, oh yeh, that be some structure steel, probably 6061 or 6063 but he sez he has a gun to shoot it with that sometimes will tell him what it is but he didn't think it was 5000 series. > > > > So, it turns out that it is available for $13.78 per foot, in my tax free state. > > > > Me wonders if it is too heavy???? Hmmmm, is 6000 series ok for a boom??? There were also some 4 and 5 inch sections, but i didn't notice any forty footers. > > > > Sorry about any confusion. 3/8" SS rod is about 79cents per foot. More or less $2.30 lb. Him, stainless barbque????? > > > > I did take some photos if anyone be needing such a perspective. > > > > Parr > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > sitefix, where did you get information that irrigation pipe has 1/8" (0.125) wall? I only found 1 company making pipes with 0.125" and 0.250" wall. All others usually make them for 6" pipes with 0.051, 0.058 & 0.083", for 8" pipes with 0.051, 0.064, 0.083 & 0.094. > > > > > > Do you have the name of the company who makes it? Interesting idea if it has needed strength. Irrigation pipes are available in 30 and 40' length and made from alloy 3004-H26. I am looking for more information to compare it with 6" Sch40 aluminum pipe. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > > > > > > > now, if someone would just answer the 40' mast question that I have been following. there is a mess of 6"x1/8"X40'aluminum irrigation pipe just up the road waiting for me. > > > > w3par 73's > > > > > > > > > > | 23358|23286|2010-05-21 15:18:46|theboilerflue|Re: rig rambling|Sounds like you found a bunch of sch 40 6" aluminium pipe in full (or near) lengths, Karl built his mast out of something like that from ABC in Campbell River. Might be a little heavy for a boom, mines about half that weight, but great for a mast. I would say it's a pretty good chance that the pipe is 6061 but if he has a gun that'll tell him what it is - get him to use it. But sounds like he's selling it for top dollar, 6" sch 40 weighs about 6.5 pounds per foot so he's selling it for more than 2 dollars a pound, not as much as new but I like it better when they sell scrap aluminium for 1.00 - 1.50 a pound better, especially when you're buying such a large amount of it, gives you some bargaining room. I got my boom for a buck a pound cost 42 dollars for 20'- that's 2.10 a foot for 1/8 wall 5" pipe. > > Ahah----it be---- 6" ID with a 1/4" wall for a 6.5" OD diameter about 40 foot long ok maybe 38-39sh, some shrubs were in the way. > > So, I inquire all over again, only this time to the owner and he sez, oh yeh, that be some structure steel, probably 6061 or 6063 but he sez he has a gun to shoot it with that sometimes will tell him what it is but he didn't think it was 5000 series. > > So, it turns out that it is available for $13.78 per foot, in my tax free state. > > Me wonders if it is too heavy???? Hmmmm, is 6000 series ok for a boom??? There were also some 4 and 5 inch sections, but i didn't notice any forty footers. > > Sorry about any confusion. 3/8" SS rod is about 79cents per foot. More or less $2.30 lb. Him, stainless barbque????? > > I did take some photos if anyone be needing such a perspective. > > Parr > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > sitefix, where did you get information that irrigation pipe has 1/8" (0.125) wall? I only found 1 company making pipes with 0.125" and 0.250" wall. All others usually make them for 6" pipes with 0.051, 0.058 & 0.083", for 8" pipes with 0.051, 0.064, 0.083 & 0.094. > > > > Do you have the name of the company who makes it? Interesting idea if it has needed strength. Irrigation pipes are available in 30 and 40' length and made from alloy 3004-H26. I am looking for more information to compare it with 6" Sch40 aluminum pipe. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > > > > > now, if someone would just answer the 40' mast question that I have been following. there is a mess of 6"x1/8"X40'aluminum irrigation pipe just up the road waiting for me. > > > w3par 73's > > > > > > | 23359|23334|2010-05-21 16:14:42|theboilerflue|Re: 40 footer modeling|> This what I see so far: > deep and long cockpit is not really necessary (could be wrong) > it should be some structure to prevent water to hit/flood main hatch and give the support to a person exiting/entering main hatch. At this time, main hatch frame is raised about 5" above the deck. I would put a foot well in unless you have something else that performs the same function as a foot well does. One option would be something like what Steve has on Silas Crosby sort of center cockpit over top of the engine so the foot well doesn't interfere with the living space at all and provides plenty of room in the stern. Not exactly what you have pictured there. > Question here: It is recommended to use 4" bulwark pipe and weld deck right below it. Which leaves the pipe to hold water from draining and no room to put scuppers. Does it need to lower the deck to make the space for scuppers between deck and bulwark pipe? > It would seem a little harder to cut and fit the deck to a pipe than the hull plate underneath the pipe plus would use an extra 80 feet worth of stainless welding rod instead of cheap 7018 to attach it to your stainless bulwark. Plus having that over lapping pipe helps to keep things from sliding over the side into the water, I don't think a nice smooth round edge would do that very well when you're heeled over. > Door width (my modification) looks OK to put engine in - about 24", (to narrow for me?) > Door heights (my modification) – about 24" (looks too low for me?), but wheelhouse has a slope forward. Need to test it. One consideration other than the engine fitting through is fitting plywood through I can't fit more than 42" through my hatch diagonally if you have the room and on a 40 footer you should it wouldn't be too hard to push it just a little bigger to allow for a 4x8 sheet of plywood to pass through the hatch way. > There is need to have something to secure the person on a deck in this area during bad weather conditions and when boat heels. May be side lockers 8-12" tall? How wide? It might be used as seats too. Wheelhouse is about 3 ft. tall - too low? I think if you had some sturdy side lockers that you could sit on as well as prop your feet against when heeled over that would work, but so the width would be narrow enough to stand on the lower side while sitting on the upwind sides locker, which isn't very wide. Without having something to push against with your feet it would be like Brent says "straddling a whale" anytime you have to fight the tiller. Also you need to be able to get at everything with a grinder, so no tight spaces. > It might be not enough room for transom propane tank locker – there is only 3 ft from door hatch to the transom rails. Or it will require to reposition wheelhouse and reduce inside room (one of the options). You can also hang your propane bottles off the rails. > Extra grab-rails need to be present on the wheelhouse Having the life lines on one side and grabrails on the cabin side all the way along make it very nice to go forward. > > What is the advantage of deep long cockpit beside of the option to sit there and have a good time with friends during good weather? To drop things in a hurry into it and safe feeling for person who sit there when boat rolls was mentioned already. What else? It also allows one to have the tiller lower which frees up space in the cockpit area above it a bit. Some people have built a seat off the stern rail above the tiller. > | 23360|1325|2010-05-21 17:08:27|theboilerflue|Re: updated pictures|Man what a scrap yard, now somebody just needs to talk the yard into renting them space to build a boat in, though it is Utah and a little far from water. And those must be what the inside of those not all stainless, all stainless Anderson winches looks like. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Our web page has been updated with more pictures. > What might be of interest is some pictures of an amazing scrap yard. > > cheers, > Carl > sv-mom.com > | 23361|23286|2010-05-21 18:19:27|brentswain38|Re: rig rambling|If you go for aluminium, your rig wil be lighter, as will be your pocket book. If you go steel, your rig will be heavier as will your pocketbook. Steel welds are 100% the strength of the surounding metal. Aluminium welds are 60% or less, and very easy to screw up, without your being aware of the screwup.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Sounds like you found a bunch of sch 40 6" aluminium pipe in full (or near) lengths, Karl built his mast out of something like that from ABC in Campbell River. Might be a little heavy for a boom, mines about half that weight, but great for a mast. > I would say it's a pretty good chance that the pipe is 6061 but if he has a gun that'll tell him what it is - get him to use it. But sounds like he's selling it for top dollar, 6" sch 40 weighs about 6.5 pounds per foot so he's selling it for more than 2 dollars a pound, not as much as new but I like it better when they sell scrap aluminium for 1.00 - 1.50 a pound better, especially when you're buying such a large amount of it, gives you some bargaining room. I got my boom for a buck a pound cost 42 dollars for 20'- that's 2.10 a foot for 1/8 wall 5" pipe. > > > > > > > > Ahah----it be---- 6" ID with a 1/4" wall for a 6.5" OD diameter about 40 foot long ok maybe 38-39sh, some shrubs were in the way. > > > > So, I inquire all over again, only this time to the owner and he sez, oh yeh, that be some structure steel, probably 6061 or 6063 but he sez he has a gun to shoot it with that sometimes will tell him what it is but he didn't think it was 5000 series. > > > > So, it turns out that it is available for $13.78 per foot, in my tax free state. > > > > Me wonders if it is too heavy???? Hmmmm, is 6000 series ok for a boom??? There were also some 4 and 5 inch sections, but i didn't notice any forty footers. > > > > Sorry about any confusion. 3/8" SS rod is about 79cents per foot. More or less $2.30 lb. Him, stainless barbque????? > > > > I did take some photos if anyone be needing such a perspective. > > > > Parr > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > sitefix, where did you get information that irrigation pipe has 1/8" (0.125) wall? I only found 1 company making pipes with 0.125" and 0.250" wall. All others usually make them for 6" pipes with 0.051, 0.058 & 0.083", for 8" pipes with 0.051, 0.064, 0.083 & 0.094. > > > > > > Do you have the name of the company who makes it? Interesting idea if it has needed strength. Irrigation pipes are available in 30 and 40' length and made from alloy 3004-H26. I am looking for more information to compare it with 6" Sch40 aluminum pipe. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > > > > > > > now, if someone would just answer the 40' mast question that I have been following. there is a mess of 6"x1/8"X40'aluminum irrigation pipe just up the road waiting for me. > > > > w3par 73's > > > > > > > > > > | 23362|22|2010-05-21 18:49:04|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /the propwash #1.bmp Uploaded by : westotters Description : HI everyone- this is the design i worked on for origami design- it is influenced by Russel brothers designs.but with a shallow draft for inland and sheltered waters of the great alkes- but it can handle a good chop if need be for short voyages You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/the%20propwash%20%231.bmp To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles Regards, westotters | 23363|23334|2010-05-21 22:47:40|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Thanks, theboilerflue, for all practical tips and ideas. I put deck lockers on 3D model to make some foot-support on a deck. Stern lockers are 10" wide, 7.5" tall, 27" long, distance between – 32" It will need to add some kind of rails on the top and the sides of these lockers (to put cautions on) and for foot support when boat heels. Some foldable benches could be placed on stern life-rails (similar as on the picture - should be pipe instead of cable) with foldable legs. Picture is here: http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/Deck_setup_1.JPG?gsc=33oywiMAAAA0NBvy4VDI1cqDsRNPF0O_4TUabn9L46zqn-A6I_17Na0IoyLhPG2x5smOr2otMGI I had to raise wheelhouse a little bit to make door 0.8x0.8m, (31.5x31.5" -> 2.6x2.6 ft).Diagonal of the frame is 0.89m (35", 2.92 ft) To feet 4x8 plywood, door frame need to be > 1.22m diagonal, => 1.2x1.2m (47.25x47.25in) I was considering center cockpit – will see if I can make decent floor plan after putting engine in 3D model. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > One consideration other than the engine fitting through is fitting plywood through I can't fit more than 42" through my hatch diagonally if you have the room and on a 40 footer you should it wouldn't be too hard to push it just a little bigger to allow for a 4x8 sheet of plywood to pass through the hatch way. > > > Also you need to be able to get at everything with a grinder, so no tight spaces. > > > You can also hang your propane bottles off the rails. > > It also allows one to have the tiller lower which frees up space in the cockpit area above it a bit. Some people have built a seat off the stern rail above the tiller. > > > | 23364|23334|2010-05-22 09:57:25|martin demers|Re: 40 footer modeling|Wild, why dont you go sailing before to get experience and find out what you prefer on a sailboat instead of making plans and speculations. By a cheap sailboat and play with it for a while, then you will know what to instal on the one you want to build. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 02:45:31 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 40 footer modeling Thanks, theboilerflue, for all practical tips and ideas. I put deck lockers on 3D model to make some foot-support on a deck. Stern lockers are 10" wide, 7.5" tall, 27" long, distance between � 32" It will need to add some kind of rails on the top and the sides of these lockers (to put cautions on) and for foot support when boat heels. Some foldable benches could be placed on stern life-rails (similar as on the picture - should be pipe instead of cable) with foldable legs. Picture is here: http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/Deck_setup_1.JPG?gsc=33oywiMAAAA0NBvy4VDI1cqDsRNPF0O_4TUabn9L46zqn-A6I_17Na0IoyLhPG2x5smOr2otMGI I had to raise wheelhouse a little bit to make door 0.8x0.8m, (31.5x31.5" -> 2.6x2.6 ft).Diagonal of the frame is 0.89m (35", 2.92 ft) To feet 4x8 plywood, door frame need to be > 1.22m diagonal, => 1.2x1.2m (47.25x47.25in) I was considering center cockpit � will see if I can make decent floor plan after putting engine in 3D model. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > One consideration other than the engine fitting through is fitting plywood through I can't fit more than 42" through my hatch diagonally if you have the room and on a 40 footer you should it wouldn't be too hard to push it just a little bigger to allow for a 4x8 sheet of plywood to pass through the hatch way. > > > Also you need to be able to get at everything with a grinder, so no tight spaces. > > > You can also hang your propane bottles off the rails. > > It also allows one to have the tiller lower which frees up space in the cockpit area above it a bit. Some people have built a seat off the stern rail above the tiller. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Gagnez 10 000 $ avec Hotmail! Participez ici. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729718 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23365|1325|2010-05-22 10:39:59|Carl Anderson|Re: updated pictures|Given time you could get all the stainless needed for building a boat out of this yard. The picture of the pile shown is just the "incoming" stuff. When this pile starts getting big they push a lot of it under the shed that is in the background and continue cutting it up. The yard packages the stainless in 1 cubic yard boxes after it is graded (304 & 316 are separated for instance). That is why they cut everything up as it has to be shorter than 36" to fit inside these boxes. Then off to China to be made into cast mooring cleats (and other shiny shit) for the plastic boats!! (how else are the globalists gonna make their profit from international wage arbitration???) Carl sv-mom.com theboilerflue wrote: > > > Man what a scrap yard, now somebody just needs to talk the yard into > renting them space to build a boat in, though it is Utah and a little > far from water. And those must be what the inside of those not all > stainless, all stainless Anderson winches looks like. > | 23366|23334|2010-05-22 10:43:20|Carl Anderson|Re: 40 footer modeling|WOW what a GREAT idea!!! I mean it really is! It's what we did. Helped us a lot. Carl sv-mom.com martin demers wrote: > > > Wild, why dont you go sailing before to get experience and find out what you prefer on a sailboat instead of making plans and speculations. > By a cheap sailboat and play with it for a while, then you will know what to instal on the one you want to build. > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 02:45:31 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 40 footer modeling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, theboilerflue, for all practical tips and ideas. > > > > I put deck lockers on 3D model to make some foot-support on a deck. > > Stern lockers are 10" wide, 7.5" tall, 27" long, distance between – 32" > > > > It will need to add some kind of rails on the top and the sides of these lockers (to put cautions on) and for foot support when boat heels. Some foldable benches could be placed on stern life-rails (similar as on the picture - should be pipe instead of cable) with foldable legs. > > > > Picture is here: > > > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/Deck_setup_1.JPG?gsc=33oywiMAAAA0NBvy4VDI1cqDsRNPF0O_4TUabn9L46zqn-A6I_17Na0IoyLhPG2x5smOr2otMGI > > > > I had to raise wheelhouse a little bit to make door 0.8x0.8m, (31.5x31.5" -> 2.6x2.6 ft).Diagonal of the frame is 0.89m (35", 2.92 ft) > > > > To feet 4x8 plywood, door frame need to be > 1.22m diagonal, => 1.2x1.2m (47.25x47.25in) > > > > I was considering center cockpit – will see if I can make decent floor plan after putting engine in 3D model. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > >> One consideration other than the engine fitting through is fitting plywood through I can't fit more than 42" through my hatch diagonally if you have the room and on a 40 footer you should it wouldn't be too hard to push it just a little bigger to allow for a 4x8 sheet of plywood to pass through the hatch way. > > > >> Also you need to be able to get at everything with a grinder, so no tight spaces. > > > >> You can also hang your propane bottles off the rails. > > >> It also allows one to have the tiller lower which frees up space in the cockpit area above it a bit. Some people have built a seat off the stern rail above the tiller. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Gagnez 10 000 $ avec Hotmail! Participez ici. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729718 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 23367|23334|2010-05-22 12:35:48|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|May be not such great idea... I do not see any point "to buy cheap boat to play with it" if I already know I do not like it. That ,probably, why people are building Brent's boats and customize them. I take pictures of sailboats in our marina when I like it. The interesting things about it - it is very hard to find it again. It is just not there (probably sailing). But all these "cheap" production boats are sitting in the marina all the time. Sail clubs have only limited number of "production" boats you can try. I like tall sailing ships but never saw one around here. I saw one steel boat in 2 years in our marina in guest dock. Only harbor master knew who made it. I like sailboats with two masts, but Brent already pointed out advantages of his setup from practical point of view. I like enough space to walk around the deck (Brent's boats have it). However, I still have my own preferences. Will I have everything I like on my boat? May be not. So... Compromises again... And it is better to get advice from people who already have more sailing experience than me, instead of "testing" my ideas at sea. And I appreciate all comments and advices. Even trying some ideas on 3D model is very helpful. Some times it just does not seems it will work. Much easier than to do it on real boat. Thanks again to ALL. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > WOW what a GREAT idea!!! > I mean it really is! > It's what we did. > Helped us a lot. > > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > > martin demers wrote: > > > > > > Wild, why dont you go sailing before to get experience and find out what you prefer on a sailboat instead of making plans and speculations. > > By a cheap sailboat and play with it for a while, then you will know what to instal on the one you want to build. > > Martin. | 23368|23334|2010-05-22 14:18:25|theboilerflue|Re: 40 footer modeling|or even for cheaper: charter... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > May be not such great idea... I do not see any point "to buy cheap boat to play with it" if I already know I do not like it. That ,probably, why people are building Brent's boats and customize them. I take pictures of sailboats in our marina when I like it. The interesting things about it - it is very hard to find it again. It is just not there (probably sailing). But all these "cheap" production boats are sitting in the marina all the time. Sail clubs have only limited number of "production" boats you can try. > > I like tall sailing ships but never saw one around here. I saw one steel boat in 2 years in our marina in guest dock. Only harbor master knew who made it. I like sailboats with two masts, but Brent already pointed out advantages of his setup from practical point of view. I like enough space to walk around the deck (Brent's boats have it). However, I still have my own preferences. Will I have everything I like on my boat? May be not. > > So... Compromises again... And it is better to get advice from people who already have more sailing experience than me, instead of "testing" my ideas at sea. > > And I appreciate all comments and advices. Even trying some ideas on 3D model is very helpful. Some times it just does not seems it will work. Much easier than to do it on real boat. > > Thanks again to ALL. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > WOW what a GREAT idea!!! > > I mean it really is! > > It's what we did. > > Helped us a lot. > > > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > Wild, why dont you go sailing before to get experience and find out what you prefer on a sailboat instead of making plans and speculations. > > > By a cheap sailboat and play with it for a while, then you will know what to instal on the one you want to build. > > > Martin. > | 23369|23334|2010-05-22 14:19:44|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Silas Crosby is really good looking customization of Brent's boat. http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oBv4S69oJyFnPlXAZv0q7C5_1_M9Yo0RI-WaInnhWF2kIREmkdROe7vmDgOffrqsFfrACoRgsLzA4gQnMBkkBEepwMrM2OAiTbuK/Silas%20Crosby%20of%20Comox Thanks for the idea. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > I would put a foot well in unless you have something else that performs the same function as a foot well does. One option would be something like what Steve has on Silas Crosby sort of center cockpit over top of the engine so the foot well doesn't interfere with the living space at all and provides plenty of room in the stern. > Not exactly what you have pictured there. | 23370|23334|2010-05-22 14:53:03|theboilerflue|Re: 40 footer modeling|You know the other problem your going to run into with this tiny little cockpit is opening the door without smashing someone standing in (or on) the cockpit, if you're hatch is going to be 24+ inches and your "cockpit" looks to be about 36". Now I know you said you haven't had much sailboat experience, but going with drop boards here would be a big mistake, they are the worst thing ever designed for boats. The other consideration about cockpits is climbing out of them to go forward, with a foot well you have several different levels, like steps and so when standing in the well you can have sides that come 2 feet up around you but still only have to step up and over 1 foot at a time to climb out, with your last drawing all you have is one level to hold you in the cockpit so making it taller would make it safer you also need to be able to crawl over it to get forward, which would put a limit to it's height around to around 1 foot which doesn't really do much to hold you in. The other consideration is where to put your sheet winches where there is space to swing the handle and hopefully not have to step over it to climb forward, you're also going have tail the line (takes both hands at times even with self-tailers) and not fall out of the cockpit on the winch that is on the downhill side of where you've propped yourself against The foot well also allows you to have something large sitting in front of the hatchway, within reach of inside (like groceries, jerry cans ect.) while still being able to open and close the door, trust me it's handy. In your well-less cockpit everything (tiller included), or everybody will have to be free of the swing of the hatch which is pretty far out of reach from inside. With a large pilot house like that you would have plenty of room to make both quarters accessible from the inside. On my boat I decided to make the galley counter larger in exchange making the port quarter accessible by crawling around through the starboard quarter, which is a bit of a pain in the ass but sat least I haver plenty of counter space, MOM has it setup so both quarters are accessible by putting the galley in the trunk cabin. Since you're tall you're probably going to want to galley in the pilot house as well for ample headroom plus you can cook while keeping watch, and you should with the larger boat and larger pilot house be able to make this accessibility thing happen. So why the larg hate on for cockpit wells? All they do pretty much is take storage space from inside and bring it outside allowing you to store things like propane, jerry cans, feet, rope, wet gear, all the stuff you don't want inside. The one thing that your stock plastic boat has over a Brent boat is deck storage, there is virtually none on most Brent boats, for good reasons (rust) which is why most people build a propane box in the cockpit, put up coamings, and build an anchor well. One could even attach some more aluminium boxes to ones granny bars at the mast. But by cutting out the foot well you're cutting down on a valuable commodity on these boats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Thanks, theboilerflue, for all practical tips and ideas. > > I put deck lockers on 3D model to make some foot-support on a deck. > Stern lockers are 10" wide, 7.5" tall, 27" long, distance between – 32" > > It will need to add some kind of rails on the top and the sides of these lockers (to put cautions on) and for foot support when boat heels. Some foldable benches could be placed on stern life-rails (similar as on the picture - should be pipe instead of cable) with foldable legs. > > Picture is here: > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/Deck_setup_1.JPG?gsc=33oywiMAAAA0NBvy4VDI1cqDsRNPF0O_4TUabn9L46zqn-A6I_17Na0IoyLhPG2x5smOr2otMGI > > > I had to raise wheelhouse a little bit to make door 0.8x0.8m, (31.5x31.5" -> 2.6x2.6 ft).Diagonal of the frame is 0.89m (35", 2.92 ft) > > To feet 4x8 plywood, door frame need to be > 1.22m diagonal, => 1.2x1.2m (47.25x47.25in) > > I was considering center cockpit – will see if I can make decent floor plan after putting engine in 3D model. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > One consideration other than the engine fitting through is fitting plywood through I can't fit more than 42" through my hatch diagonally if you have the room and on a 40 footer you should it wouldn't be too hard to push it just a little bigger to allow for a 4x8 sheet of plywood to pass through the hatch way. > > > > > > Also you need to be able to get at everything with a grinder, so no tight spaces. > > > > > > You can also hang your propane bottles off the rails. > > > > It also allows one to have the tiller lower which frees up space in the cockpit area above it a bit. Some people have built a seat off the stern rail above the tiller. > > > > > > | 23371|23286|2010-05-22 23:08:26|arctichusky44|Re: rig rambling|I am not sure why anyone would go with a material for the mast because it is cheap. If you look at the cost of the alloy pipe(under a grand for 55 feet of 6 inch sched 40, then the cost of the steel, add the thirty years of steel maintenance, plus the aggravation of thinking about all that weight aloft for the next thirty years or so, plus the hernias everytime you have to pack the steel mast! Based on thirty year ownership the alloy works out to around three dollars a month over maybe two bucks for the steel. Hmmm. Recycle ten pop cans a month and you have it justified. Frank --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > If you go for aluminium, your rig wil be lighter, as will be your pocket book. If you go steel, your rig will be heavier as will your pocketbook. > Steel welds are 100% the strength of the surounding metal. Aluminium welds are 60% or less, and very easy to screw up, without your being aware of the screwup.. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Sounds like you found a bunch of sch 40 6" aluminium pipe in full (or near) lengths, Karl built his mast out of something like that from ABC in Campbell River. Might be a little heavy for a boom, mines about half that weight, but great for a mast. > > I would say it's a pretty good chance that the pipe is 6061 but if he has a gun that'll tell him what it is - get him to use it. But sounds like he's selling it for top dollar, 6" sch 40 weighs about 6.5 pounds per foot so he's selling it for more than 2 dollars a pound, not as much as new but I like it better when they sell scrap aluminium for 1.00 - 1.50 a pound better, especially when you're buying such a large amount of it, gives you some bargaining room. I got my boom for a buck a pound cost 42 dollars for 20'- that's 2.10 a foot for 1/8 wall 5" pipe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahah----it be---- 6" ID with a 1/4" wall for a 6.5" OD diameter about 40 foot long ok maybe 38-39sh, some shrubs were in the way. > > > > > > So, I inquire all over again, only this time to the owner and he sez, oh yeh, that be some structure steel, probably 6061 or 6063 but he sez he has a gun to shoot it with that sometimes will tell him what it is but he didn't think it was 5000 series. > > > > > > So, it turns out that it is available for $13.78 per foot, in my tax free state. > > > > > > Me wonders if it is too heavy???? Hmmmm, is 6000 series ok for a boom??? There were also some 4 and 5 inch sections, but i didn't notice any forty footers. > > > > > > Sorry about any confusion. 3/8" SS rod is about 79cents per foot. More or less $2.30 lb. Him, stainless barbque????? > > > > > > I did take some photos if anyone be needing such a perspective. > > > > > > Parr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > > > sitefix, where did you get information that irrigation pipe has 1/8" (0.125) wall? I only found 1 company making pipes with 0.125" and 0.250" wall. All others usually make them for 6" pipes with 0.051, 0.058 & 0.083", for 8" pipes with 0.051, 0.064, 0.083 & 0.094. > > > > > > > > Do you have the name of the company who makes it? Interesting idea if it has needed strength. Irrigation pipes are available in 30 and 40' length and made from alloy 3004-H26. I am looking for more information to compare it with 6" Sch40 aluminum pipe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > now, if someone would just answer the 40' mast question that I have been following. there is a mess of 6"x1/8"X40'aluminum irrigation pipe just up the road waiting for me. > > > > > w3par 73's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 23372|23286|2010-05-23 01:01:48|wild_explorer|Re: rig rambling|It is the same kind of question like "Why would you build your own mast at all, instead of using production mast?" It is nice to have options. Why spend 2-3 times more money for "30 years maintenance free" if you can buy something now 10 years maintenance free, 3 times cheaper and have new one in 10 years (without metal fatigue)? It is just need to have a set of properly calculated masts on file from different materials for the boat. Availability is another factor. In some areas it is easier to get wooden mast. It was used as mast material for centuries. Steel is easy to find, weld and repair in most places. Someone could possibly even find titanium pipe at bargain price to make a mast. 30 years of maintenance free looks like another dream as well as probability of 30 years ownership. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "arctichusky44" wrote: > > I am not sure why anyone would go with a material for the mast because it is cheap. If you look at the cost of the alloy pipe(under a grand for 55 feet of 6 inch sched 40, then the cost of the steel, add the thirty years of steel maintenance, plus the aggravation of thinking about all that weight aloft for the next thirty years or so, plus the hernias everytime you have to pack the steel mast! Based on thirty year ownership the alloy works out to around three dollars a month over maybe two bucks for the steel. Hmmm. Recycle ten pop cans a month and you have it justified. > Frank | 23373|23334|2010-05-23 01:35:42|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Swinging door clearance is a big problem. It probably will be the same problem for center cockpit. From this point of view, it is need to make main hatch as narrow as possible and make 2-parts-double-action hatch (with 2-nd opening part of it on top of wheelhouse). I need to think it over again. Brent possibly has better usable solution. Point taken for all others practical tips. Thanks! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > You know the other problem your going to run into with this tiny little cockpit is opening the door without smashing someone standing in (or on) the cockpit, if you're hatch is going to be 24+ inches and your "cockpit" looks to be about 36". | 23374|23286|2010-05-23 09:49:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: rig rambling|On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 03:07:45AM -0000, arctichusky44 wrote: > I am not sure why anyone would go with a material for the mast because > it is cheap. If you look at the cost of the alloy pipe(under a grand > for 55 feet of 6 inch sched 40, then the cost of the steel, add the > thirty years of steel maintenance, plus the aggravation of thinking > about all that weight aloft for the next thirty years or so, plus the > hernias everytime you have to pack the steel mast! Frank, you've forgotten to list the wearying sense of increasing the carbon footprint, the perdurable shame of knowing that you've negatively influenced the slave wages of the workers in Kazakhstan and Bhopal, the nightmarish perception of having contributed to the atmosphere-destroying factory smoke, and the ugly knowledge that you've contributed, however slightly, to universal suffering and delayed the moment of world-wide enlightenment. (None of the above have anything to do with choosing steel mast over an alloy one, but I just thought I'd add to the list you were compiling. I mean, as long as we're going for emotional appeal, here...) > Based on thirty > year ownership the alloy works out to around three dollars a month > over maybe two bucks for the steel. Hmmm. Recycle ten pop cans a month > and you have it justified. Yes, but should those be steel or aluminum cans? Choose wrong, and you're back to the same problem again - dying from the shame of social disapproval. It would sure keep me awake at night... Both steel and alloy masts have their place; both are in relatively common use as spars (commercial use tends to favor steel, recreational use is slanted more toward aluminum.) Both work just fine - so the choice really comes down to things like availability, location, cost, and personal preference. Religious pulpit-pounding doesn't help anyone. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23375|23286|2010-05-24 16:47:46|brentswain38|Re: rig rambling|Frank That kind of thinking is what ends up taking people a decade or more to get free. I've seen it happen time and time again over the last 40 years .Rigs are easy to change when a better one comes along. Use what you have , get your ass out sailng, then ,after getting off the treadmill and being finally able to see priorities clearly, decide what your future priorities are. Meanwhile you are cruising. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > It is the same kind of question like "Why would you build your own mast at all, instead of using production mast?" > > It is nice to have options. Why spend 2-3 times more money for "30 years maintenance free" if you can buy something now 10 years maintenance free, 3 times cheaper and have new one in 10 years (without metal fatigue)? > > It is just need to have a set of properly calculated masts on file from different materials for the boat. Availability is another factor. In some areas it is easier to get wooden mast. It was used as mast material for centuries. Steel is easy to find, weld and repair in most places. Someone could possibly even find titanium pipe at bargain price to make a mast. > > 30 years of maintenance free looks like another dream as well as probability of 30 years ownership. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "arctichusky44" wrote: > > > > I am not sure why anyone would go with a material for the mast because it is cheap. If you look at the cost of the alloy pipe(under a grand for 55 feet of 6 inch sched 40, then the cost of the steel, add the thirty years of steel maintenance, plus the aggravation of thinking about all that weight aloft for the next thirty years or so, plus the hernias everytime you have to pack the steel mast! Based on thirty year ownership the alloy works out to around three dollars a month over maybe two bucks for the steel. Hmmm. Recycle ten pop cans a month and you have it justified. > > Frank > | 23376|23334|2010-05-24 17:06:24|brentswain38|Re: 40 footer modeling|I knew a guy who flew tot he Caribean and bought a cheapy, then left it with a broker and flew home at the end of winter. I hear there is a whole fleet of these plastic cheapies that change hands every winter. Two weeks and you are ahead of what you would have spent on hotels and you have your own boat in the Caribean. Disposables. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > May be not such great idea... I do not see any point "to buy cheap boat to play with it" if I already know I do not like it. That ,probably, why people are building Brent's boats and customize them. I take pictures of sailboats in our marina when I like it. The interesting things about it - it is very hard to find it again. It is just not there (probably sailing). But all these "cheap" production boats are sitting in the marina all the time. Sail clubs have only limited number of "production" boats you can try. > > I like tall sailing ships but never saw one around here. I saw one steel boat in 2 years in our marina in guest dock. Only harbor master knew who made it. I like sailboats with two masts, but Brent already pointed out advantages of his setup from practical point of view. I like enough space to walk around the deck (Brent's boats have it). However, I still have my own preferences. Will I have everything I like on my boat? May be not. > > So... Compromises again... And it is better to get advice from people who already have more sailing experience than me, instead of "testing" my ideas at sea. > > And I appreciate all comments and advices. Even trying some ideas on 3D model is very helpful. Some times it just does not seems it will work. Much easier than to do it on real boat. > > Thanks again to ALL. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > WOW what a GREAT idea!!! > > I mean it really is! > > It's what we did. > > Helped us a lot. > > > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > Wild, why dont you go sailing before to get experience and find out what you prefer on a sailboat instead of making plans and speculations. > > > By a cheap sailboat and play with it for a while, then you will know what to instal on the one you want to build. > > > Martin. > | 23377|23377|2010-05-24 17:32:21|brentswain38|Organic recovery magnet|A friend said he knew someone who dropped something stainless overboard, As it was non magnetic stainless , his magnet wouldn't pick it up. He could see it , but didn't want to get wet. So he tied a starfish on a line and lowered it onto the item. He then gave the star fish time to glom onto it, then lifted the starfish and his treasure back up. Ida gave the starfish an opened clam as a reward. Cruisers are an ingenious lot,| 23378|23286|2010-05-24 20:26:00|martin demers|Re: rig rambling|I paid $140.00 for three 20ft lenght of 6in x 1/8 steel pipe(tube) to make my mast, I'll start with that and if later on I can put my hand on a good used aluminium one for cheap I'll buy it. I think it is the way to go. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 20:47:03 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rig rambling Frank That kind of thinking is what ends up taking people a decade or more to get free. I've seen it happen time and time again over the last 40 years .Rigs are easy to change when a better one comes along. Use what you have , get your ass out sailng, then ,after getting off the treadmill and being finally able to see priorities clearly, decide what your future priorities are. Meanwhile you are cruising. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > It is the same kind of question like "Why would you build your own mast at all, instead of using production mast?" > > It is nice to have options. Why spend 2-3 times more money for "30 years maintenance free" if you can buy something now 10 years maintenance free, 3 times cheaper and have new one in 10 years (without metal fatigue)? > > It is just need to have a set of properly calculated masts on file from different materials for the boat. Availability is another factor. In some areas it is easier to get wooden mast. It was used as mast material for centuries. Steel is easy to find, weld and repair in most places. Someone could possibly even find titanium pipe at bargain price to make a mast. > > 30 years of maintenance free looks like another dream as well as probability of 30 years ownership. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "arctichusky44" wrote: > > > > I am not sure why anyone would go with a material for the mast because it is cheap. If you look at the cost of the alloy pipe(under a grand for 55 feet of 6 inch sched 40, then the cost of the steel, add the thirty years of steel maintenance, plus the aggravation of thinking about all that weight aloft for the next thirty years or so, plus the hernias everytime you have to pack the steel mast! Based on thirty year ownership the alloy works out to around three dollars a month over maybe two bucks for the steel. Hmmm. Recycle ten pop cans a month and you have it justified. > > Frank > _________________________________________________________________ 10 000 $ de magasinage avec Hotmail. Inscrivez-vous! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729721 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23379|23379|2010-05-24 20:47:36|GP|Snake..eel maybe?|Saw the weidest critter swimming about the Comox docks yesterday. About 18 inches long... small rounded head like an eel..moved slowly.. snake like... celia type sides...full length ceilia... and excreting a sediment type of material as it swam... Did not seem to be capable of moving fast. Any marine biologists out there? thanks.. Gary| 23380|23334|2010-05-25 11:43:03|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Another attempt to make compromise on deck setup. Pseudo cockpit. Floor of "cockpit" flash to a deck. http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_deck_v31_v38.JPG Same problem as before with door size (only about 0.6x06m, 23.6x23.6")| 23381|23334|2010-05-25 13:07:20|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Looks like my post did not went through (after couple of hours re-posting it). This is another attempt for cockpit compromise (headroom and having pseudo cockpit). Cockpit floor is flash to deck. http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_deck_v31_v38.JPG Problem - door is too small (0.6mx0.6m or 23.6x23.6") Comments?| 23382|23334|2010-05-25 14:35:52|edward|Re: 40 footer modeling|Hi Willis, As well as the door one has to consider the arc of the tiller and where the helmsman and his elbows will be when pulling it hard over. Also is there enough room to handle and haul on mooring ropes and drogue ropes? Where will the life buoys and other gear go? Will the seats be comfortable. Do you like to tuck your legs under when you sit down? Is there enough room to haul a casualty in over the gunwhales? Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Looks like my post did not went through (after couple of hours re-posting it). > > This is another attempt for cockpit compromise (headroom and having pseudo cockpit). Cockpit floor is flash to deck. > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_deck_v31_v38.JPG > > Problem - door is too small (0.6mx0.6m or 23.6x23.6") > > Comments? > | 23383|23334|2010-05-25 16:56:56|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Thanks Ted, you made me think about ergonomics as well. Let's see. To sit and walk comfortably (for me) cockpit should be: floor 24" wide seat 18" high seat depth 16" arm rest ~ 8" from seat Note: It is bad for the knees to tuck your legs under. They should be stretched forward a little with no pressure on the knees.. So, cockpit should be 18(seat)+8(arm rest)=26" tall to keep my arm clear from it. Now I have cockpit 21.4" high at the end and seat about 12" high. Need to rearrange it somehow with acceptable compromise. I had to increase seat depth to 23.5-24" because of door (or it will not open 180 deg). So, I have 24-16=8" extra for a back-rest. This 8" space could be used to put some extra life safety gears (like life ring) and act like a back rest. If I go for 18" high seat (now 12") I need to make wheelhouse 6" taller to keep the same size of door as now (which is small – 23.6"). Wheelhouse is already 40" tall (on that picture). Probably, another 6" will not make big difference. 2 small boxes (far back on a deck) are 10x26" - should be enough for ropes. I can make 2 watertight storage areas under cockpit seats 24x81" - should be enough for everything else. I am trying to make deck arrangement more for northern type of weather conditions than for tropics. From this point, it is better to stay in wheelhouse instead of on the deck. 81" long cockpit benches is the compromise for tropic conditions – you can make a sunbed there if weather is good. Cockpit walls could have some posts for the tent set up. I will, probably, use a tiller for emergency only (in bad weather conditions). I think, rudder should be operated from wheelhouse or somewhere inside cockpit in my case. It is more complex, but more comfortable during bad weather. But you are right, it is need to plan to use tiller and arrange deck accordingly. There is about 24" deck walk way around cabin, wheelhouse and cockpit. About 30" on the back of cockpit. Not much room to haul a casualty in. With tall solid life rails and rudder on the back, it would be even harder. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > Hi Willis, > > As well as the door one has to consider the arc of the tiller and where the helmsman and his elbows will be when pulling it hard over. > > Also is there enough room to handle and haul on mooring ropes and drogue ropes? Where will the life buoys and other gear go? Will the seats be comfortable. Do you like to tuck your legs under when you sit down? Is there enough room to haul a casualty in over the gunwhales? > > Regards, > Ted | 23384|23334|2010-05-25 16:57:37|David Frantz|Re: 40 footer modeling|Yahoo Groups have been screwed up the last couple of days. Even more mainstream groups have taken forever to update. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On May 24, 2010, at 9:09 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > Looks like my post did not went through (after couple of hours re- > posting it). > > This is another attempt for cockpit compromise (headroom and having > pseudo cockpit). Cockpit floor is flash to deck. > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_deck_v31_v38.JPG > > Problem - door is too small (0.6mx0.6m or 23.6x23.6") > > Comments? > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23385|23334|2010-05-25 19:10:26|brentswain38|Re: 40 footer modeling|Altho my cockpit is 6 1/2 feet long, the aft part is occupied by the cockpit locker. Never the less, I have no problem with the door, nor handling the sheets. The tiller is 3 ft long, so comes to the front of the lcoocr and I've had no problems handling it. If I were building again, the cockpit would be almost identical. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > Hi Willis, > > As well as the door one has to consider the arc of the tiller and where the helmsman and his elbows will be when pulling it hard over. > > Also is there enough room to handle and haul on mooring ropes and drogue ropes? Where will the life buoys and other gear go? Will the seats be comfortable. Do you like to tuck your legs under when you sit down? Is there enough room to haul a casualty in over the gunwhales? > > Regards, > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Looks like my post did not went through (after couple of hours re-posting it). > > > > This is another attempt for cockpit compromise (headroom and having pseudo cockpit). Cockpit floor is flash to deck. > > > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_deck_v31_v38.JPG > > > > Problem - door is too small (0.6mx0.6m or 23.6x23.6") > > > > Comments? > > > | 23386|23386|2010-05-25 20:06:01|wild_explorer|Plywood interior health risk?|I heard about this problem with new (just manufactured) plywood risk long time ago. It takes up to 10-15 years for plywood to become neutral (most formaldehyde evaporated). Actually, in this case, using plywood washed out by ocean is might be better (old plywood). It was lot of noise about it after "Katrina" http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14011193/ http://rv.org/p17779.pdf Is it really cheaper to use plywood than wood (let say pine) for interior?| 23387|23379|2010-05-25 20:57:24|steve|Re: Snake..eel maybe?|Gary , could it have been a Polychaete ? They are normally sedentary in the mud , like you are right now in Comox Harbour , although I don't know about the sedentary part. http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gulfspecimen.org/images/an-450-2.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.gulfspecimen.org/PhylumAnnelida.html&h=229&w=284&sz=32&tbnid=y0hqQ0i8AHXowM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpolychaetes&hl=en&usg=__uHSTOzpJQehRiUA4CA6KcfOhlSU=&ei=zAD8S7ncE5W4NdT1hIgC&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image&ved=0CDEQ9QEwBg The beast may be almost as long as that URL I just copied and pasted. Are you doing engine work out there in the harbour or what? Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Saw the weidest critter swimming about the Comox docks yesterday. About 18 inches long... small rounded head like an eel..moved slowly.. snake like... celia type sides...full length ceilia... and excreting a sediment type of material as it swam... Did not seem to be capable of moving fast. Any marine biologists out there? > > thanks.. > Gary > | 23388|23334|2010-05-25 21:32:57|Ben Okopnik|Re: 40 footer modeling|On Tue, 25 May 2010 1:09:00 (EST), "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Looks like my post did not went through (after couple of hours > re-posting it). When in doubt, you can always check the backup system: http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?start=last Your post did, in fact, go through; it just hadn't propagated to where you are yet. Yahoo's CDN (content delivery network) sucks, that's all. I forgot to mention this feature, by the way: the above URL (i.e., when 'start' is set to 'last') will always show you the last 50 posts retrieved from this group. The system only pulls them down once a day, but if you don't see your posts for a while, that can be enough to provide a decent cross-check. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23389|23286|2010-05-25 21:33:10|brentswain38|Re: rig rambling|Steel maintenance is not that much that far above the decks unless you underpaint it. Ihave had spray galv out of a can look perfect at the n masthead after 15 years. Not salty up there no corosion. The first few feet will be most of your maintenance, where it is easy to get at. Another main attraction of steel is the ability to weld it with a buzzbox, outside. Those who have switched from steel to aluminium say the difference was minimal. They had 6 5/8th 10 gauge pipe, They said if it had been 6 inch oD with 11 gauge wall the difference would be unoticable. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "arctichusky44" wrote: > > I am not sure why anyone would go with a material for the mast because it is cheap. If you look at the cost of the alloy pipe(under a grand for 55 feet of 6 inch sched 40, then the cost of the steel, add the thirty years of steel maintenance, plus the aggravation of thinking about all that weight aloft for the next thirty years or so, plus the hernias everytime you have to pack the steel mast! Based on thirty year ownership the alloy works out to around three dollars a month over maybe two bucks for the steel. Hmmm. Recycle ten pop cans a month and you have it justified. > Frank > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > If you go for aluminium, your rig wil be lighter, as will be your pocket book. If you go steel, your rig will be heavier as will your pocketbook. > > Steel welds are 100% the strength of the surounding metal. Aluminium welds are 60% or less, and very easy to screw up, without your being aware of the screwup.. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > Sounds like you found a bunch of sch 40 6" aluminium pipe in full (or near) lengths, Karl built his mast out of something like that from ABC in Campbell River. Might be a little heavy for a boom, mines about half that weight, but great for a mast. > > > I would say it's a pretty good chance that the pipe is 6061 but if he has a gun that'll tell him what it is - get him to use it. But sounds like he's selling it for top dollar, 6" sch 40 weighs about 6.5 pounds per foot so he's selling it for more than 2 dollars a pound, not as much as new but I like it better when they sell scrap aluminium for 1.00 - 1.50 a pound better, especially when you're buying such a large amount of it, gives you some bargaining room. I got my boom for a buck a pound cost 42 dollars for 20'- that's 2.10 a foot for 1/8 wall 5" pipe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahah----it be---- 6" ID with a 1/4" wall for a 6.5" OD diameter about 40 foot long ok maybe 38-39sh, some shrubs were in the way. > > > > > > > > So, I inquire all over again, only this time to the owner and he sez, oh yeh, that be some structure steel, probably 6061 or 6063 but he sez he has a gun to shoot it with that sometimes will tell him what it is but he didn't think it was 5000 series. > > > > > > > > So, it turns out that it is available for $13.78 per foot, in my tax free state. > > > > > > > > Me wonders if it is too heavy???? Hmmmm, is 6000 series ok for a boom??? There were also some 4 and 5 inch sections, but i didn't notice any forty footers. > > > > > > > > Sorry about any confusion. 3/8" SS rod is about 79cents per foot. More or less $2.30 lb. Him, stainless barbque????? > > > > > > > > I did take some photos if anyone be needing such a perspective. > > > > > > > > Parr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > sitefix, where did you get information that irrigation pipe has 1/8" (0.125) wall? I only found 1 company making pipes with 0.125" and 0.250" wall. All others usually make them for 6" pipes with 0.051, 0.058 & 0.083", for 8" pipes with 0.051, 0.064, 0.083 & 0.094. > > > > > > > > > > Do you have the name of the company who makes it? Interesting idea if it has needed strength. Irrigation pipes are available in 30 and 40' length and made from alloy 3004-H26. I am looking for more information to compare it with 6" Sch40 aluminum pipe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > now, if someone would just answer the 40' mast question that I have been following. there is a mess of 6"x1/8"X40'aluminum irrigation pipe just up the road waiting for me. > > > > > > w3par 73's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 23390|23379|2010-05-25 21:37:31|theboilerflue|Re: Snake..eel maybe?|Liz McCleod --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Saw the weidest critter swimming about the Comox docks yesterday. About 18 inches long... small rounded head like an eel..moved slowly.. snake like... celia type sides...full length ceilia... and excreting a sediment type of material as it swam... Did not seem to be capable of moving fast. Any marine biologists out there? > > thanks.. > Gary > | 23391|23379|2010-05-25 22:09:22|Ben Okopnik|Re: Snake..eel maybe?|On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 05:02:09PM -0000, steve wrote: > Gary , could it have been a Polychaete ? They are normally sedentary in the mud , like you are right now in Comox Harbour , although I don't know about the sedentary part. > > http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gulfspecimen.org/images/an-450-2.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.gulfspecimen.org/PhylumAnnelida.html&h=229&w=284&sz=32&tbnid=y0hqQ0i8AHXowM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpolychaetes&hl=en&usg=__uHSTOzpJQehRiUA4CA6KcfOhlSU=&ei=zAD8S7ncE5W4NdT1hIgC&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image&ved=0CDEQ9QEwBg > > The beast may be almost as long as that URL I just copied and pasted. [laugh] http://www.google.com/images?q=Polychaete That looks like a plain old bloodworm. Although I got to see one, in a bait shop in California, that was about 18" long (an average one is more like 5-6"); that SOB had "fangs" that were ~1/2" long. If I was prone to that kind of thing, I'd have had nightmares about it. As it was, I didn't get too close - the shop owner was holding the damn thing in his hand. Give me a nice, clean, friendly rattlesnake any day. That was one *huge* motherin' worm. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23392|23379|2010-05-25 22:19:59|GP|Re: Snake..eel maybe?|Hi Steve... that is exactly it... typically a bottom dweller apparently but this guy was doing the rounds up top. Yes I am sitting in the mud out front because of engine probs... starter probs...just got a celanoid sent in ... Courtenay Rad found one on east coast and am putting back together now. Ask me how much I enjoyed the 70 kn gusts the other night... all night. Hopefully on the inside mud soon... China cloud and Karl are in there...pull in behind I guess. No sign of Brent yet. ...Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > Gary , could it have been a Polychaete ? They are normally sedentary in the mud , like you are right now in Comox Harbour , although I don't know about the sedentary part. > > http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gulfspecimen.org/images/an-450-2.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.gulfspecimen.org/PhylumAnnelida.html&h=229&w=284&sz=32&tbnid=y0hqQ0i8AHXowM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpolychaetes&hl=en&usg=__uHSTOzpJQehRiUA4CA6KcfOhlSU=&ei=zAD8S7ncE5W4NdT1hIgC&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image&ved=0CDEQ9QEwBg > > The beast may be almost as long as that URL I just copied and pasted. > > Are you doing engine work out there in the harbour or what? > > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > Saw the weidest critter swimming about the Comox docks yesterday. About 18 inches long... small rounded head like an eel..moved slowly.. snake like... celia type sides...full length ceilia... and excreting a sediment type of material as it swam... Did not seem to be capable of moving fast. Any marine biologists out there? > > > > thanks.. > > Gary > > > | 23393|23334|2010-05-25 23:25:41|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Yeah... It just took about 24 hours for my (double) message typed yesterday, to show up today. And about 8 hours for another one today. Something was really wrong with Yahoo. Hopefully fixed by now... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Yahoo Groups have been screwed up the last couple of days. Even more > mainstream groups have taken forever to update. > > David A Frantz | 23394|23334|2010-05-25 23:46:54|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|With foot well 18" deep(seat height for me) below the deck it will give additional 18" for the door with the same wheelhouse. And it allow to keep wheelhouse lower. As it turned out that raising wheelhouse 6 more inches(in my case) makes boat look ugly. I just do not like foot well below the deck, but it might be only the option for roomy arrangement on the deck and keeping good look for the boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Altho my cockpit is 6 1/2 feet long, the aft part is occupied by the cockpit locker. Never the less, I have no problem with the door, nor handling the sheets. The tiller is 3 ft long, so comes to the front of the lcoocr and I've had no problems handling it. > If I were building again, the cockpit would be almost identical. > | 23395|23395|2010-05-26 16:03:01|wild_explorer|Double action main hatch|Does anybody know how to make double action hatch like this? http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/Main_hatch.JPG Which will open simultaneously. It will need some kind of special reliable link to synchronize it.| 23396|23334|2010-05-26 16:04:13|theboilerflue|Re: 40 footer modeling|Yeah, that last model looks much more comfortable and functional though I don't know if you even need the dark green blocks right at the stern? they might just trip you more than anything. The coamings look like they'll give you nice protection from the wind, if you slope their outside edge in a little they'll present less of a flat edge to the wind when sailing, but looks good. are you going to make them out of steel, integral to the boat or make separate aluminium, personally I'd make them all aluminium bolted onto stainless tabs welded to the deck and cabin, they'll be lighter and you won't have to worry about maintaining the paint on all those corners, edges and you can have some nice cockpit lockers without the rust bucket problem. I was working on a friends boat a few weeks ago he has a 40' double ender with a flush cockpit, he wants to redesign his hatch, at the moment he has a slider and drop boards, real wide hatchway and no room for a (single) hinged door. It got me thinking, has you seen the hatch that Carl and Kate have on there boat MOM? it's a regular hinged door like mine but there's another hatch that is hinged on the top and it overlaps the first door, so it's kinda like a slider but hinged instead. It works and can seal well but the problem with it is that when sailing in nice weather with the hatch open, there it is right smack in you view. I was thinking what you could do would be to weld down a track like two pieces of stainless channel and for the hinge on the top hatch you could put some rollers that would slide along the channel tracks. This way the top hatch still overlaps the side one and you can still get a nice seal with foam and really dog it down tight. So to open it you'd lift it up a little than slide it back out of the way. You could even get a pretty nice seal with a saloon style hatch on the bottom this way, as long as you have a good overlap on the two saloon doors as well. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Looks like my post did not went through (after couple of hours re-posting it). > > This is another attempt for cockpit compromise (headroom and having pseudo cockpit). Cockpit floor is flash to deck. > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_deck_v31_v38.JPG > > Problem - door is too small (0.6mx0.6m or 23.6x23.6") > > Comments? > | 23397|23395|2010-05-26 16:12:27|theboilerflue|Re: Double action main hatch|yeah just like that except the hinges on the top hatch would be able to slide forward to put the hatch out of the way of your vision. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Does anybody know how to make double action hatch like this? > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/Main_hatch.JPG > > Which will open simultaneously. It will need some kind of special reliable link to synchronize it. > | 23398|23334|2010-05-26 17:19:47|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Good points. Thanks! I was thinking about simplicity and usability too. Looks like flat bench-type pseudo-cockpit 12" high from floor might work. Cockpit floor flash to a deck. Like this: http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_v31_v50.JPG Easier to make. I can use some foldable seats which could be raised and secured to a wheelhouse when wind and spray protection is needed. I had to gave up 18" comfortable height for the benches because it will be hard to step over it if needed, and will reduce a room for the door (I want to be able to open it 180 deg). The benches would be from steel, integrated to a hull to maintain inside headroom. No storage in the benches in this case. Benches could be made removable (from aluminum or stainless as you suggested)if someone does not heed so much headroom inside. Main hatch still a problem. Top hatch's part almost the same size as door part. I saw M.O.M. door solution - very good. But Carl has regular cockpit and taller door. I do not know if I can adopt that idea in my case. Need to do more modeling. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Yeah, that last model looks much more comfortable and functional though I don't know if you even need the dark green blocks right at the stern? they might just trip you more than anything. The coamings look like they'll give you nice protection from the wind, if you slope their outside edge in a little they'll present less of a flat edge to the wind when sailing, but looks good. are you going to make them out of steel, integral to the boat or make separate aluminium, personally I'd make them all aluminium bolted onto stainless tabs welded to the deck and cabin, they'll be lighter and you won't have to worry about maintaining the paint on all those corners, edges and you can have some nice cockpit lockers without the rust bucket problem. | 23399|23334|2010-05-26 18:32:40|brentswain38|Re: 40 footer modeling|Mine is 11 inches deep. No complaints. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Good points. Thanks! I was thinking about simplicity and usability too. Looks like flat bench-type pseudo-cockpit 12" high from floor might work. Cockpit floor flash to a deck. > > Like this: > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_v31_v50.JPG > > Easier to make. I can use some foldable seats which could be raised and secured to a wheelhouse when wind and spray protection is needed. > > I had to gave up 18" comfortable height for the benches because it will be hard to step over it if needed, and will reduce a room for the door (I want to be able to open it 180 deg). The benches would be from steel, integrated to a hull to maintain inside headroom. No storage in the benches in this case. Benches could be made removable (from aluminum or stainless as you suggested)if someone does not heed so much headroom inside. > > Main hatch still a problem. Top hatch's part almost the same size as door part. I saw M.O.M. door solution - very good. But Carl has regular cockpit and taller door. I do not know if I can adopt that idea in my case. Need to do more modeling. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Yeah, that last model looks much more comfortable and functional though I don't know if you even need the dark green blocks right at the stern? they might just trip you more than anything. The coamings look like they'll give you nice protection from the wind, if you slope their outside edge in a little they'll present less of a flat edge to the wind when sailing, but looks good. are you going to make them out of steel, integral to the boat or make separate aluminium, personally I'd make them all aluminium bolted onto stainless tabs welded to the deck and cabin, they'll be lighter and you won't have to worry about maintaining the paint on all those corners, edges and you can have some nice cockpit lockers without the rust bucket problem. > | 23400|23334|2010-05-26 19:36:33|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Brent, are you talking about your cockpit floor? As I understand, you have "classic" cockpit, where the cockpit floor (foot well) is BELOW the deck. Did I get it right? I know, your setup work just fine. This POSSIBLE solution is for ME (to keep inside headroom in stern area). It could be too much headroom for someone else. I am trying to make "pseudo" cockpit with its floor at the same level as the deck. So, in your setup you have 11 more inches for the door. Right? Another picture with raised seats. I could not make storage from it - not enough space. http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_1__v31_v54.JPG SPECIAL thanks to "theboilerflue" for the idea. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Mine is 11 inches deep. No complaints. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Good points. Thanks! I was thinking about simplicity and usability too. Looks like flat bench-type pseudo-cockpit 12" high from floor might work. Cockpit floor flash to a deck. | 23401|23401|2010-05-26 22:32:23|lachica31|Gasket material for diesel tank inspection ports.|Quick question. What material are you guys using to seal your diesel tank inspection ports. I have heard that neoprene and buna-n are no good when using bio-diesel. Any of you guys have experience with this? Thanks, Paul Thompson.| 23402|23401|2010-05-27 05:15:48|edward|Re: Gasket material for diesel tank inspection ports.|Hi Paul, According to the information given in the pdf addressed below, pure biodiesel use is somewhat akin to poking a snake with a stick. It will attack almost anything. http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/Materials_Compatibility.pdf Regards, Ted| 23403|23334|2010-05-27 05:33:29|edward|Re: 40 footer modeling|Hi Willis, Some people like to sit on the coaming when using the tiller, especially when sailing with the boat on its ear. One tends to forget when designing that the boat will be operated at all kinds of different angles and also that one will be on it for a long time often in the same position for hours. A bit of variety in seating positions is worthwhile. I myself would like a LAZY BOY recliner upholstered in black leather with a fridge in the arm rest for cans of beer like I have just seen advertised on the TV, but it is probably not feasable and I will have to compromise. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Another picture with raised seats. I could not make storage from it - not enough space. > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_1__v31_v54.JPG > > | 23404|23334|2010-05-27 06:53:42|James Pronk|Re: 40 footer modeling|I have been using a bean-bag chair in my boat and it works great. The beans are double bagged in plastic and the cloth bag has held up well. James --- On Thu, 5/27/10, edward wrote: From: edward Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 40 footer modeling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, May 27, 2010, 5:32 AM   Hi Willis, Some people like to sit on the coaming when using the tiller, especially when sailing with the boat on its ear. One tends to forget when designing that the boat will be operated at all kinds of different angles and also that one will be on it for a long time often in the same position for hours. A bit of variety in seating positions is worthwhile. I myself would like a LAZY BOY recliner upholstered in black leather with a fridge in the arm rest for cans of beer like I have just seen advertised on the TV, but it is probably not feasable and I will have to compromise. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Another picture with raised seats. I could not make storage from it - not enough space. > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_1__v31_v54.JPG > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23405|23334|2010-05-27 08:34:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: 40 footer modeling|On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:34:12PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Brent, are you talking about your cockpit floor? As I understand, you > have "classic" cockpit, where the cockpit floor (foot well) is BELOW > the deck. Did I get it right? I've seen a "walkthrough" like what you're talking about; it was on a boat called the Viking Elizabeth. As I recall, she's got a flush deck from the stern to the pilothouse, with a couple of benches running fore and aft. Then, as you got to the pilothouse, you had to step over ~8" coaming - that door could (obviously) be left open even in very rough weather - and the companionway was at the forward end of that pilothouse, with a very comfortable seat in front of the steering station, which was on the starboard side of the pilothouse. There were some wonderful bits of design on that boat: e.g., the deck sole was perf SS, with a couple of inches of clearance above the actual deck - i.e., there could never be any standing water on it, totally non-slip. The guy who owns her built and ran the whole Viking fleet (commercial fishing boats), then retired and had the VE - a 60+' sailboat - built for him in Florida, designed so he could easily sail it by himself. He did most of the design, so a lot of the stuff on there is a sum of his 50+ years of experience fishing the Atlantic canyons (heh. He's got a depth sounder that came from a Navy warship: a hydraulically-driven retractable column that extends *4 feet* out of the hull, and can give you the precise contour and composition of the bottom at 600 fathoms. He's also got a mid-ship hold that could take something like 15 tons of fish and ice.) He told me "when we launched her in Miami, the designer asked me: 'have you done any sailing?' I said, 'No, but I'm sure I can't sail her backwards!', took off, and sailed her up to New York." Hell of a seaman, that guy. If he called me up and said "I'll trade you the VE for every single thing you own in this world", I'd take him up on it in a second flat. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23406|23334|2010-05-27 08:42:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: 40 footer modeling|On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 09:32:57AM -0000, edward wrote: > Hi Willis, > > Some people like to sit on the coaming when using the tiller, > especially when sailing with the boat on its ear. One tends to forget > when designing that the boat will be operated at all kinds of > different angles and also that one will be on it for a long time often > in the same position for hours. A bit of variety in seating positions > is worthwhile. I myself would like a LAZY BOY recliner upholstered in > black leather with a fridge in the arm rest for cans of beer like I > have just seen advertised on the TV, but it is probably not feasable > and I will have to compromise. Heh. One of the features of the Viking Elizabeth that made me bite my nails was a *big*, comfortable captain's chair at the steering station. That thing would be great in any kind of weather. Probably cost a couple of grand... -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23407|23401|2010-05-27 10:31:17|Carl Anderson|Re: Gasket material for diesel tank inspection ports.|I used silicone RTV rubber (comes in a tube) to seal the inspection ports on all three of our tanks (1 fuel & 2 water). Carl sv-mom.com lachica31 wrote: > > > Quick question. What material are you guys using to seal your diesel > tank inspection ports. I have heard that neoprene and buna-n are no good > when using bio-diesel. Any of you guys have experience with this? > > Thanks, > > Paul Thompson. > > | 23408|23401|2010-05-27 12:40:23|wild_explorer|Re: Gasket material for diesel tank inspection ports.|Message #22223 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/22223 and all related discussions around (+/-) that post. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > Quick question. What material are you guys using to seal your diesel tank inspection ports. I have heard that neoprene and buna-n are no good when using bio-diesel. Any of you guys have experience with this? > > Thanks, > > Paul Thompson. > | 23409|23334|2010-05-27 13:00:36|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Ted, I will probably go for a "bean-bag" chair (as was suggested) at this time... If I do not like it, I could always eat it ;)) If seriously, it is need to put some SS tabs on the top of the "bench" or may be just put some SS grab-rails around. This way, someone could attach any type of equipment (foldable reclining chairs, boxes, etc. to it) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > Hi Willis, > > Some people like to sit on the coaming when using the tiller, especially when sailing with the boat on its ear. One tends to forget when designing that the boat will be operated at all kinds of different angles and also that one will be on it for a long time often in the same position for hours. A bit of variety in seating positions is worthwhile. I myself would like a LAZY BOY recliner upholstered in black leather with a fridge in the arm rest for cans of beer like I have just seen advertised on the TV, but it is probably not feasable and I will have to compromise. > > Regards, > Ted | 23410|23334|2010-05-27 13:13:32|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|James, it is really good solution. I was not making fun of it. Sorry, if it might sound so in my previous post. I like practical solutions, and yours is one of them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I have been using a bean-bag chair in my boat and it works great. The beans are double bagged in plastic and the cloth bag has held up well. > James > --- On Thu, 5/27/10, edward wrote: | 23411|23334|2010-05-27 13:19:39|theboilerflue|Re: 40 footer modeling|No, no use Bean Bag Chairs, 70s revival. A bit of variety in seating positions is worthwhile. I myself would like a LAZY BOY recliner upholstered in black leather with a fridge in the arm rest for cans of beer like I have just seen advertised on the TV, but it is probably not feasable and I will have to compromise. > > Regards, > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > Another picture with raised seats. I could not make storage from it - not enough space. > > > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_1__v31_v54.JPG > > > > > | 23412|23334|2010-05-27 13:48:10|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Actually, there are some Inflatable Bean Bag Chairs - which could be used as backup flotation device in case of emergency. Probably, good one would not be cheap. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > No, no use Bean Bag Chairs, 70s revival. > | 23413|23401|2010-05-27 16:07:19|edward|Re: Gasket material for diesel tank inspection ports.|Hi Willis, I'd forgotten your post on this subject. Sometimes, our forum is a bit like being in an old folks home where the same conversations are repeated over and over again. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Message #22223 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/22223 and all related discussions around (+/-) that post. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > Quick question. What material are you guys using to seal your diesel tank inspection ports. I have heard that neoprene and buna-n are no good when using bio-diesel. Any of you guys have experience with this? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Paul Thompson. > > > | 23414|23401|2010-05-27 17:29:03|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gasket material for diesel tank inspection ports.|On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 08:02:30PM -0000, edward wrote: > Hi Willis, > > I'd forgotten your post on this subject. Sometimes, our forum is a > bit like being in an old folks home where the same conversations are > repeated over and over again. That's one of the reasons I built a search engine. :) http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?search=search&body=%2Bbiodiesel+%2Bneoprene -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23415|23401|2010-05-27 17:58:40|wild_explorer|Re: Gasket material for diesel tank inspection ports.|Ted, I forgot about it too, as well as I missed your post today on this subject. I had to dig up Ben's database to find it ;) It is nice to know that someone else remember this information. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > Hi Willis, > > I'd forgotten your post on this subject. Sometimes, our forum is a bit like being in an old folks home where the same conversations are repeated over and over again. > > Regards, > > Ted | 23416|23416|2010-05-27 18:12:27|wild_explorer|May be it is the time to make Origamiboats FAQ?|I am catching myself that I find some useful information, keep it somewhere on my computer and have a hard time to find it later. Other people have questions about Origamiboats which were already discussed here. Ben's database helps a lot. Some questions are repeated pretty often. Would not be it nice to have FAQ on such subjects? I can make special page in Google Origamiboats group. And that link could be put on front page of this group. More information - less questions. Veterans of this group, what are the most commonly asked questions?| 23417|23416|2010-05-27 18:41:51|Mark Hamill|Re: May be it is the time to make Origamiboats FAQ?|FAQ's Why does this always happen to me?? How come my dog doesn't bark when you come around?? Why am I so poor?? What do you mean you aren't a women?? Bear with me I'll come up with some more;) Oh you mean about boats FAQ's. Which begs the question--"Why am I such a dumbass??" ----- Original Message ----- From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 3:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] May be it is the time to make Origamiboats FAQ? I am catching myself that I find some useful information, keep it somewhere on my computer and have a hard time to find it later. Other people have questions about Origamiboats which were already discussed here. Ben's database helps a lot. Some questions are repeated pretty often. Would not be it nice to have FAQ on such subjects? I can make special page in Google Origamiboats group. And that link could be put on front page of this group. More information - less questions. Veterans of this group, what are the most commonly asked questions? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23418|23416|2010-05-27 18:49:17|wild_explorer|Re: May be it is the time to make Origamiboats FAQ?|Sorry, Mark... I was unable to extract any helpful information from your post...| 23419|23416|2010-05-27 20:01:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: May be it is the time to make Origamiboats FAQ?|On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 03:41:50PM -0700, Mark Hamill wrote: > FAQ's > Why does this always happen to me?? Because you're *lucky*. I mean, you're still alive, right? > How come my dog doesn't bark when you come around?? He remembers my friendly smile - or possibly my Taser gun. [shrug] Your guess is as good as mine. > Why am I so poor?? You keep raising on a busted flush and leading from a suit that's already been spaded. Plus, a rut ain't nothin' but a grave with both ends knocked out, and "J.O.B." spells "Just Over Broke". Build a boat and go sailing instead. > What do you mean you aren't a women?? Hint: in modern dating, exchanging notarized DNA scans has replaced "Buy ya a drink?" as an opening gambit to flirtation. Also, a visual inspection can often reveal a knee-length beard or a thick mat of chest hair; those are often considered clues. > Bear with me I'll come up with some more;) Oh you mean about boats > FAQ's. Which begs the question--"Why am I such a dumbass??" [checking the dumbass scale] BZZZT!!! Sorry, you don't qualify as a dumbass: you actually own a brain and a sense of humor. Move along, there are lots and *lots* of other, more qualified applicants waiting... :))) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23420|23420|2010-05-28 11:30:35|sitefix|faqs and datta base|all i kan say ben is, wow gajeezzel. i was unaware of yer search engine until this am. been a ruff week, i am dragging, to "find" the data base was a bit inspirational. a faq section might be cool if cleaned up. too many reply post with way too much crappolla still clinging to it. one could go as far as a basic faq section, what and why, and then on to divisional level faqs, ie 1)lay out 2)cutting and burning 3)first welds etc etc umpteenth anyways, some folks thrive with hands on learn by doing, others excel with some text reference to get started. one big happy family. shrimp, steak and 30yr anniversary sierra nevada. "weekend plans" ok, me thinks ive sed too much agin. best say 73 par| 23421|23334|2010-05-30 16:43:14|brentswain38|Re: 40 footer modeling|My cockpit floor is 11 inches below the seats. It would make more room for the door , if I was happy to have the door open only 90 degrees. I did it that way on my last boat.On my current boat, I went for a door at seat level, which opens almost 180 degrees, a slight improvement, with more room in the cockpit when open I give the owner both options, as there are arguments for either. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, are you talking about your cockpit floor? As I understand, you have "classic" cockpit, where the cockpit floor (foot well) is BELOW the deck. Did I get it right? > > I know, your setup work just fine. This POSSIBLE solution is for ME (to keep inside headroom in stern area). It could be too much headroom for someone else. > > I am trying to make "pseudo" cockpit with its floor at the same level as the deck. So, in your setup you have 11 more inches for the door. Right? > > Another picture with raised seats. I could not make storage from it - not enough space. > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/My_40_model_1__v31_v54.JPG > > SPECIAL thanks to "theboilerflue" for the idea. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Mine is 11 inches deep. No complaints. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > Good points. Thanks! I was thinking about simplicity and usability too. Looks like flat bench-type pseudo-cockpit 12" high from floor might work. Cockpit floor flash to a deck. > | 23422|23334|2010-05-30 16:46:19|brentswain38|Re: 40 footer modeling|I prefer a comfortable steering seat in the wheelhouse, in too hot or too cold weather, which is most of the time, here in BC. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Actually, there are some Inflatable Bean Bag Chairs - which could be used as backup flotation device in case of emergency. Probably, good one would not be cheap. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > No, no use Bean Bag Chairs, 70s revival. > > > | 23423|10998|2010-05-31 15:53:57|GP|Sea Clear 11|Before I get into SC 11.... I understand for Canadian waters the rastor charts are for purchase unlike US which has free downloads? .... thanks... I am running Vista... Gary| 23424|10998|2010-05-31 19:05:01|Paul Wilson|Nice free charting/weather programs|I stumbled upon a really nice chartplotting program that is free. I have only just started playing with it but it looks pretty good. What I like about it is that it reads both raster and vector charts like Cmap and will also display weather (GRIB) files with ship traffic (AIS) decoding. http://sourceforge.net/projects/opencpn/ For GRIB files using an internet connection. A really nice program I have found is available at www.grib.us. Also free. Free is good! Cheers, Paul > > | 23425|23334|2010-05-31 22:05:23|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|This picture shows what could be the problem areas in origami hull's shell (no reinforcement). http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/Hull_stress_v31_v77_v1.JPG Please note: This is NOT Brent's hull. Brent's hull has more bending force (which is good for self support) and more uniformly distributed through the hull. This hull's example just shows more clearly where reinforcement more likely will be needed (lower and upper mid-area)| 23426|23426|2010-06-01 07:33:35|kimdxx|Nibbling steel plate.|Hello all ... I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms the hull of my Swain 26 footer. It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any other messages in the archives where anyone has talked about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good thing to do, despite its ease of use. But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to comment on this. Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com| 23427|23426|2010-06-01 09:45:51|Dave Ladd|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|Would a "small, hand-held" nibbler like this last through a project like this? Seems unlikely to me. If the punching from the top is bad how about punching from the bottom? On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 7:33 AM, kimdxx wrote: > > Hello all ... > > I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric > steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to > cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms > the hull of my Swain 26 footer. > > It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it > went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot > knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, > is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, > when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very > precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed > ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more > accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this > nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. > > But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really > recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel > in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend > in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page > 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a > nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather > than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any > other messages in the archives where anyone has talked > about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. > > So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good > thing to do, despite its ease of use. > > But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) > doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? > Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? > I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to > comment on this. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23428|10998|2010-06-01 12:05:46|theboilerflue|Re: Sea Clear 11|I've never found free canadian charts, the government certainly doesn't provide them for free. Sometimes you can get people to just burn you a set of charts with seaclear all you need is the BSB or KAP files or whatever you want to use. OpenCPN is another free charting program I like it better than seaclear --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Before I get into SC 11.... I understand for Canadian waters the rastor charts are for purchase unlike US which has free downloads? > > .... thanks... > > I am running Vista... > > Gary > | 23429|10998|2010-06-01 12:44:15|Carl Anderson|Re: Sea Clear 11|If you think that the cost of the CHS raster charts are high look at what the vector charts cost!!! I'm using Coastal Explorer and it does come with all the NOAA charts (both raster & vector) available for free as well as free updates for the charts. I had to buy the CHS charts (in raster form as the vector are about 3 times as much money). Carl sv-mom.com theboilerflue wrote: > > > > I've never found free canadian charts, the government certainly doesn't > provide them for free. Sometimes you can get people to just burn you a > set of charts with seaclear all you need is the BSB or KAP files or > whatever you want to use. > OpenCPN is another free charting program I like it better than seaclear > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "GP" wrote: > > > > Before I get into SC 11.... I understand for Canadian waters the > rastor charts are for purchase unlike US which has free downloads? > > > > .... thanks... > > > > I am running Vista... > > > > Gary > > > > | 23430|23334|2010-06-01 13:06:52|edward|Re: 40 footer modeling|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I have been using a bean-bag chair in my boat and it works great. The beans are double bagged in plastic and the cloth bag has held up well. > James That's a neat idea James. My wife has a bean bag chair. They would be usefull for wedging one into corners when the going gets rough. A similar idea to the polystyrene beads that are used to pack fragile items. Regards, Ted| 23431|23426|2010-06-01 14:08:20|brentswain38|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|They may work on small plate, if the peening matches the weld shrinkage in the end. Altho the only way to find out is to try it, and if the peening doesn't match the shrinkage, you have a mess on your hands, with no obvious solution. I wouldn't try it on a hull. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Dave Ladd wrote: > > Would a "small, hand-held" nibbler like this last through a project like > this? Seems unlikely to me. > > If the punching from the top is bad how about punching from the bottom? > > > On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 7:33 AM, kimdxx wrote: > > > > > Hello all ... > > > > I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric > > steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to > > cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms > > the hull of my Swain 26 footer. > > > > It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it > > went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot > > knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, > > is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, > > when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very > > precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed > > ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more > > accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this > > nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. > > > > But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really > > recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel > > in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend > > in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page > > 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a > > nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather > > than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any > > other messages in the archives where anyone has talked > > about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. > > > > So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good > > thing to do, despite its ease of use. > > > > But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) > > doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? > > Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? > > I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to > > comment on this. > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23432|23334|2010-06-01 14:09:57|brentswain38|Re: 40 footer modeling|Yes , flat spots are to be avoided in origami boat designs, as it is the shape which gives the hull plate it's stiffness. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > This picture shows what could be the problem areas in origami hull's shell (no reinforcement). > > http://origamiboats.googlegroups.com/web/Hull_stress_v31_v77_v1.JPG > > Please note: This is NOT Brent's hull. Brent's hull has more bending force (which is good for self support) and more uniformly distributed through the hull. > > This hull's example just shows more clearly where reinforcement more likely will be needed (lower and upper mid-area) > | 23433|23334|2010-06-01 17:39:18|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|I have some questions about tanks. I can make full length tank (separated to small ones), but it does not look like a good idea. If tank's plate is welded directly to the hull skin it will make "weak point edge" (where hull is more likely to be penetrated by something) and will lose advantage of origami hull (spring effect). Weld it to longitudinal stiffeners (placed at needed distance for tank)? What to use? Angle? If to use longitudinals... Is it need to weld the bottom of it all the way (sealed) and top with the recommended space between welds? If welded to longitudinals, there is an alignment problem between plate and twisted shape of longitudinal. How to avoid it or use it? What is practical thickness of tank plate? Weight does not make any difference - it close to the bottom of the hull. It will not affect balance and stability (if placed correctly), just amount of ballast.| 23434|23334|2010-06-01 18:29:16|Paul Wilson|Re: 40 footer modeling|Why don't you just buy Brent's plans and go from there? Paul wild_explorer wrote: > > I have some questions about tanks. I can make full length tank > (separated to small ones), but it does not look like a good idea. If > tank's plate is welded directly to the hull skin it will make "weak > point edge" (where hull is more likely to be penetrated by something) > and will lose advantage of origami hull (spring effect). > > Weld it to longitudinal stiffeners (placed at needed distance for > tank)? What to use? Angle? If to use longitudinals... Is it need to > weld the bottom of it all the way (sealed) and top with the > recommended space between welds? > > If welded to longitudinals, there is an alignment problem between > plate and twisted shape of longitudinal. How to avoid it or use it? > > What is practical thickness of tank plate? Weight does not make any > difference - it close to the bottom of the hull. It will not affect > balance and stability (if placed correctly), just amount of ballast. > > | 23435|23334|2010-06-01 19:20:28|brentswain38|Re: 40 footer modeling|That far in from the centreline, there is little chance of anything hitting it, and it adds structurally to the hull keel attachment. Putting it on stringers leaves a low point alongside the tank for water to sit in, and not drain aft, as it should. Best just run it all the way to the hull. With a good pass of 1/8th 7024 on top in an open V, thus full penetration, there is no need to weld the underside. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I have some questions about tanks. I can make full length tank (separated to small ones), but it does not look like a good idea. If tank's plate is welded directly to the hull skin it will make "weak point edge" (where hull is more likely to be penetrated by something) and will lose advantage of origami hull (spring effect). > > Weld it to longitudinal stiffeners (placed at needed distance for tank)? What to use? Angle? If to use longitudinals... Is it need to weld the bottom of it all the way (sealed) and top with the recommended space between welds? > > If welded to longitudinals, there is an alignment problem between plate and twisted shape of longitudinal. How to avoid it or use it? > > What is practical thickness of tank plate? Weight does not make any difference - it close to the bottom of the hull. It will not affect balance and stability (if placed correctly), just amount of ballast. > | 23436|23426|2010-06-01 20:20:16|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|I've used a nibbler in the past on sheet steel. Unlike a shear it does NOT distort a flat plate, the plate stays flat after being cut out. A torch on the other hand will warp the hell out of flat plate. Plate shears also warp a plate. So I don't get why a nibbler would be a problem. It doesn't hammer the metal, it shears it, in tiny little pieces. I suspect nibblers don't get used as much because they are quite expensive, several thousand for the one I used. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "kimdxx" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 7:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Nibbling steel plate. > > Hello all ... > > I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric > steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to > cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms > the hull of my Swain 26 footer. > > It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it > went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot > knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, > is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, > when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very > precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed > ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more > accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this > nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. > > But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really > recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel > in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend > in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page > 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a > nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather > than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any > other messages in the archives where anyone has talked > about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. > > So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good > thing to do, despite its ease of use. > > But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) > doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? > Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? > I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to > comment on this. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > > > > > > | 23437|23334|2010-06-02 09:05:17|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|I am already passed "looking to the plans" stage and now I am "building" my boat in 3D. Mine questions are "technological". Same things are in metal parts manufacturing. There are drawings for parts, but it could be done different ways depending on technologist, available tools and equipment. Drawings will remain the same, but "HOW to make it" approach might change over time. Final result will be the same - part according drawing. Difference - time and cost to make it. In 3D, I am running into the questions I will face during real construction process. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Why don't you just buy Brent's plans and go from there? > > Paul | 23438|23426|2010-06-02 11:51:25|Andrew Sullivan|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|This has been my experience as well. Nice clean cut with no visible distortion. Perhaps people who have had bad experiences with them had dull or worn dies in their nibbler. Do a test cut on scrap and examine it. If there is distortion and it makes financial sense, replace the dies. Most nibblers are designed to swap out fresh dies pretty easily.   --- On Tue, 6/1/10, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Nibbling steel plate. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 6:19 PM   I've used a nibbler in the past on sheet steel. Unlike a shear it does NOT distort a flat plate, the plate stays flat after being cut out. A torch on the other hand will warp the hell out of flat plate. Plate shears also warp a plate. So I don't get why a nibbler would be a problem. It doesn't hammer the metal, it shears it, in tiny little pieces. I suspect nibblers don't get used as much because they are quite expensive, several thousand for the one I used. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "kimdxx" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 7:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Nibbling steel plate. > > Hello all ... > > I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric > steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to > cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms > the hull of my Swain 26 footer. > > It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it > went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot > knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, > is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, > when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very > precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed > ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more > accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this > nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. > > But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really > recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel > in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend > in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page > 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a > nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather > than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any > other messages in the archives where anyone has talked > about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. > > So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good > thing to do, despite its ease of use. > > But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) > doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? > Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? > I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to > comment on this. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23439|23426|2010-06-02 14:16:46|David Frantz|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|My experience with nibblers is thin at best but I'm not to certain that cutting large sheets of steel is economical with the devices. I would suspect that you would need more than one set of dies or a way to resharpen the old. The lack of distortion though would make the nibbler very useful in a number of areas. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 2, 2010, at 11:51 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > This has been my experience as well. Nice clean cut with no visible > distortion. Perhaps people who have had bad experiences with them > had dull or worn dies in their nibbler. Do a test cut on scrap and > examine it. If there is distortion and it makes financial sense, > replace the dies. Most nibblers are designed to swap out fresh dies > pretty easily. > > --- On Tue, 6/1/10, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > From: Gary H. Lucas > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Nibbling steel plate. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 6:19 PM > > > > > > > I've used a nibbler in the past on sheet steel. Unlike a shear it > does NOT > distort a flat plate, the plate stays flat after being cut out. A > torch on > the other hand will warp the hell out of flat plate. Plate shears > also warp > a plate. So I don't get why a nibbler would be a problem. It doesn't > hammer > the metal, it shears it, in tiny little pieces. I suspect nibblers > don't > get used as much because they are quite expensive, several thousand > for the > one I used. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kimdxx" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 7:33 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Nibbling steel plate. > >> >> Hello all ... >> >> I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric >> steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to >> cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms >> the hull of my Swain 26 footer. >> >> It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it >> went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot >> knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, >> is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, >> when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very >> precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed >> ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more >> accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this >> nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. >> >> But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really >> recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel >> in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend >> in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page >> 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a >> nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather >> than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any >> other messages in the archives where anyone has talked >> about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. >> >> So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good >> thing to do, despite its ease of use. >> >> But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) >> doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? >> Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? >> I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to >> comment on this. >> >> Cheers ... >> >> Kim. >> 123kim at mailbolt dot com >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23440|23334|2010-06-02 14:57:14|Paul Wilson|Re: 40 footer modeling|If you are serious about building a boat, it seems to me that you would wish to have the plans of similar boats where this has already been done. This is especially true since the construction method is unconventional. Without them, you are starting from scratch and spinning your wheels. You are thinking using the computer and "building in 3d" on a computer screen is a substitute for the plans and will save you money and time. Nothing is further from the truth. The computer is a great tool. So is a hammer but I couldn't build a house using only a hammer. Use all the tools you can and buy the plans. Do you own Brent's book? If you don't, I would buy that too. Together, they will answer most of your questions and save you a great deal of time and effort. Paul wild_explorer wrote: > > I am already passed "looking to the plans" stage and now I am > "building" my boat in 3D. Mine questions are "technological". Same > things are in metal parts manufacturing. There are drawings for parts, > but it could be done different ways depending on technologist, > available tools and equipment. Drawings will remain the same, but "HOW > to make it" approach might change over time. Final result will be the > same - part according drawing. Difference - time and cost to make it. > > In 3D, I am running into the questions I will face during real > construction process. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Why don't you just buy Brent's plans and go from there? > > > > Paul > > | 23441|23426|2010-06-02 16:00:07|brentswain38|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|A friend bought an unfinished hull ,which had it's plate cut with a nibbler. When the plate was wrapped around a curve, the outsides were expanded compared to the inside, and the plate bent in a concave way, the opposite of what he wanted. A torch would have given him a slight compound curve helping in plating the round bilged hull. As it was it took considerable work to shrink the edges into the compound shapes he wanted. It probably wouldn't be a problem on relatively flat surfaces, like decks. Shrinkage of edges is an advantage on origami hulls, as it gives one a slightly compound curve on hull plates. It's a pain in the ass on cabin sides . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I've used a nibbler in the past on sheet steel. Unlike a shear it does NOT > distort a flat plate, the plate stays flat after being cut out. A torch on > the other hand will warp the hell out of flat plate. Plate shears also warp > a plate. So I don't get why a nibbler would be a problem. It doesn't hammer > the metal, it shears it, in tiny little pieces. I suspect nibblers don't > get used as much because they are quite expensive, several thousand for the > one I used. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kimdxx" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 7:33 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Nibbling steel plate. > > > > > > Hello all ... > > > > I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric > > steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to > > cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms > > the hull of my Swain 26 footer. > > > > It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it > > went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot > > knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, > > is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, > > when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very > > precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed > > ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more > > accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this > > nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. > > > > But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really > > recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel > > in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend > > in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page > > 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a > > nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather > > than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any > > other messages in the archives where anyone has talked > > about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. > > > > So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good > > thing to do, despite its ease of use. > > > > But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) > > doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? > > Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? > > I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to > > comment on this. > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 23442|23426|2010-06-02 21:04:06|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|Brent, Are you certain it was cut with a nibbler? I ask because I also had a handheld shear that would cut 1/8" steel, and they were available in even heavier capacity. It had a reciprocating blade very similar to the nibbler, but didn't remove a slug. It did exactly what you describe, and it was hard to pull the plates edges together for welding. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 3:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Nibbling steel plate. >A friend bought an unfinished hull ,which had it's plate cut with a >nibbler. When the plate was wrapped around a curve, the outsides were >expanded compared to the inside, and the plate bent in a concave way, the >opposite of what he wanted. A torch would have given him a slight compound >curve helping in plating the round bilged hull. As it was it took >considerable work to shrink the edges into the compound shapes he wanted. >It probably wouldn't be a problem on relatively flat surfaces, like decks. > Shrinkage of edges is an advantage on origami hulls, as it gives one a > slightly compound curve on hull plates. It's a pain in the ass on cabin > sides . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: >> >> I've used a nibbler in the past on sheet steel. Unlike a shear it does >> NOT >> distort a flat plate, the plate stays flat after being cut out. A torch >> on >> the other hand will warp the hell out of flat plate. Plate shears also >> warp >> a plate. So I don't get why a nibbler would be a problem. It doesn't >> hammer >> the metal, it shears it, in tiny little pieces. I suspect nibblers don't >> get used as much because they are quite expensive, several thousand for >> the >> one I used. >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "kimdxx" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 7:33 AM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Nibbling steel plate. >> >> >> > >> > Hello all ... >> > >> > I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric >> > steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to >> > cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms >> > the hull of my Swain 26 footer. >> > >> > It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it >> > went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot >> > knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, >> > is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, >> > when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very >> > precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed >> > ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more >> > accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this >> > nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. >> > >> > But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really >> > recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel >> > in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend >> > in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page >> > 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a >> > nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather >> > than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any >> > other messages in the archives where anyone has talked >> > about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. >> > >> > So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good >> > thing to do, despite its ease of use. >> > >> > But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) >> > doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? >> > Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? >> > I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to >> > comment on this. >> > >> > Cheers ... >> > >> > Kim. >> > 123kim at mailbolt dot com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > | 23443|23334|2010-06-02 22:30:27|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Paul, you are right. Brent's book is excellent start to learn about "origami" boat building. LOT of interesting and helpful information. If plans fits the person, buy Brent's plans and build a boat. Much simpler with better result. I will not recommend my approach to anybody. It is time consuming, require to spend time on self education, thinking and learning how to work with 3D software and many other things. I am NOT interested in "replicating". However, I can use some good ideas in my boat. I am making boat which will fit ME. If I do something wrong, I can blame only myself. Probably my engineering side is taking over. I prefer to know WHY i need to do it THIS way and I want to have FULL control over my project. I cannot start real project at this time, so I am not wasting my time playing with a computer. I am learning. And I appreciate all help from Brent and Yahoo Origamiboats members. Thanks to all! P.S. And you are correct, you will not be able to build a house only with a hammer. But you can do it just with a good axe - no hammer required. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > If you are serious about building a boat, it seems to me that you would > wish to have the plans of similar boats where this has already been > done. This is especially true since the construction method is > unconventional. Without them, you are starting from scratch and spinning > your wheels. You are thinking using the computer and "building in 3d" on > a computer screen is a substitute for the plans and will save you money > and time. Nothing is further from the truth. The computer is a great > tool. So is a hammer but I couldn't build a house using only a hammer. > Use all the tools you can and buy the plans. Do you own Brent's book? If > you don't, I would buy that too. Together, they will answer most of your > questions and save you a great deal of time and effort. > > Paul | 23444|23444|2010-06-02 23:23:10|steve|Silas Crosby website|We are planning a big trip on the Silas Crosby. Here is a link to our new website. http://silascrosby.com/sail/ It is in development, but it is kind of fun. There goes my resolution to be the first person to do something without blogging about it. Ah well, we wouldn't have been the first non-bloggers anyways. People have been not blogging for a long time. I think the Hiscocks would have been bloggers. The Smeetons on Tzu Hang ? Maybe not. Hal Roth , for sure. Slocum ,no. Chichester , yes. Alain Gerbault - yes. David Lewis - he'd have been a bigtime blogger and not just about voyaging. How about Moitessier? He would have had a couple of bloggers dedicated to posting for him. How about Capt.Silas Crosby ? He would have had a company-provided satphone. Suggestions for content , or questions ,for our site are welcome. Steve| 23445|23445|2010-06-03 12:07:20|martin|Water Makers|Hi All: I was watching a documentary the other day on rowing across oceans and was interested in what type of water maker they use on those row boats. They only have small batteries and solar panels for their energy source. Does anyone know the specifics of their systems? Martin..| 23446|23334|2010-06-03 14:20:37|brentswain38|Re: 40 footer modeling|Sounds like you are thoroughly enjoying your project already, which is what "Pleasure " boats are all about, regardless of how you gain the pleasure. Life is short. Have the desert first. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Paul, you are right. Brent's book is excellent start to learn about "origami" boat building. LOT of interesting and helpful information. If plans fits the person, buy Brent's plans and build a boat. Much simpler with better result. > > I will not recommend my approach to anybody. It is time consuming, require to spend time on self education, thinking and learning how to work with 3D software and many other things. I am NOT interested in "replicating". However, I can use some good ideas in my boat. I am making boat which will fit ME. If I do something wrong, I can blame only myself. Probably my engineering side is taking over. I prefer to know WHY i need to do it THIS way and I want to have FULL control over my project. > > I cannot start real project at this time, so I am not wasting my time playing with a computer. I am learning. And I appreciate all help from Brent and Yahoo Origamiboats members. Thanks to all! > > P.S. And you are correct, you will not be able to build a house only with a hammer. But you can do it just with a good axe - no hammer required. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > If you are serious about building a boat, it seems to me that you would > > wish to have the plans of similar boats where this has already been > > done. This is especially true since the construction method is > > unconventional. Without them, you are starting from scratch and spinning > > your wheels. You are thinking using the computer and "building in 3d" on > > a computer screen is a substitute for the plans and will save you money > > and time. Nothing is further from the truth. The computer is a great > > tool. So is a hammer but I couldn't build a house using only a hammer. > > Use all the tools you can and buy the plans. Do you own Brent's book? If > > you don't, I would buy that too. Together, they will answer most of your > > questions and save you a great deal of time and effort. > > > > Paul > | 23447|23426|2010-06-03 14:24:29|brentswain38|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|Yes , it definitely was a nibbler. Plasma has made them redundant. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > Are you certain it was cut with a nibbler? I ask because I also had a > handheld shear that would cut 1/8" steel, and they were available in even > heavier capacity. It had a reciprocating blade very similar to the nibbler, > but didn't remove a slug. It did exactly what you describe, and it was hard > to pull the plates edges together for welding. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 3:59 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Nibbling steel plate. > > > >A friend bought an unfinished hull ,which had it's plate cut with a > >nibbler. When the plate was wrapped around a curve, the outsides were > >expanded compared to the inside, and the plate bent in a concave way, the > >opposite of what he wanted. A torch would have given him a slight compound > >curve helping in plating the round bilged hull. As it was it took > >considerable work to shrink the edges into the compound shapes he wanted. > >It probably wouldn't be a problem on relatively flat surfaces, like decks. > > Shrinkage of edges is an advantage on origami hulls, as it gives one a > > slightly compound curve on hull plates. It's a pain in the ass on cabin > > sides . > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > >> > >> I've used a nibbler in the past on sheet steel. Unlike a shear it does > >> NOT > >> distort a flat plate, the plate stays flat after being cut out. A torch > >> on > >> the other hand will warp the hell out of flat plate. Plate shears also > >> warp > >> a plate. So I don't get why a nibbler would be a problem. It doesn't > >> hammer > >> the metal, it shears it, in tiny little pieces. I suspect nibblers don't > >> get used as much because they are quite expensive, several thousand for > >> the > >> one I used. > >> > >> Gary H. Lucas > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "kimdxx" > >> To: > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 7:33 AM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Nibbling steel plate. > >> > >> > >> > > >> > Hello all ... > >> > > >> > I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric > >> > steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to > >> > cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms > >> > the hull of my Swain 26 footer. > >> > > >> > It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it > >> > went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot > >> > knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, > >> > is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, > >> > when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very > >> > precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed > >> > ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more > >> > accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this > >> > nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. > >> > > >> > But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really > >> > recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel > >> > in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend > >> > in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page > >> > 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a > >> > nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather > >> > than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any > >> > other messages in the archives where anyone has talked > >> > about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. > >> > > >> > So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good > >> > thing to do, despite its ease of use. > >> > > >> > But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) > >> > doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? > >> > Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? > >> > I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to > >> > comment on this. > >> > > >> > Cheers ... > >> > > >> > Kim. > >> > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > | 23448|23426|2010-06-03 20:03:07|cumorglas|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|that is what i was thinking. don't you guys live somewhere where you can rent a plasma cutter for a long weekend? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes , it definitely was a nibbler. Plasma has made them redundant. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Brent, > > Are you certain it was cut with a nibbler? I ask because I also had a > > handheld shear that would cut 1/8" steel, and they were available in even > > heavier capacity. It had a reciprocating blade very similar to the nibbler, > > but didn't remove a slug. It did exactly what you describe, and it was hard > > to pull the plates edges together for welding. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 3:59 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Nibbling steel plate. > > > > > > >A friend bought an unfinished hull ,which had it's plate cut with a > > >nibbler. When the plate was wrapped around a curve, the outsides were > > >expanded compared to the inside, and the plate bent in a concave way, the > > >opposite of what he wanted. A torch would have given him a slight compound > > >curve helping in plating the round bilged hull. As it was it took > > >considerable work to shrink the edges into the compound shapes he wanted. > > >It probably wouldn't be a problem on relatively flat surfaces, like decks. > > > Shrinkage of edges is an advantage on origami hulls, as it gives one a > > > slightly compound curve on hull plates. It's a pain in the ass on cabin > > > sides . > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> I've used a nibbler in the past on sheet steel. Unlike a shear it does > > >> NOT > > >> distort a flat plate, the plate stays flat after being cut out. A torch > > >> on > > >> the other hand will warp the hell out of flat plate. Plate shears also > > >> warp > > >> a plate. So I don't get why a nibbler would be a problem. It doesn't > > >> hammer > > >> the metal, it shears it, in tiny little pieces. I suspect nibblers don't > > >> get used as much because they are quite expensive, several thousand for > > >> the > > >> one I used. > > >> > > >> Gary H. Lucas > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "kimdxx" > > >> To: > > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 7:33 AM > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Nibbling steel plate. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > Hello all ... > > >> > > > >> > I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric > > >> > steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to > > >> > cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms > > >> > the hull of my Swain 26 footer. > > >> > > > >> > It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it > > >> > went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot > > >> > knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, > > >> > is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, > > >> > when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very > > >> > precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed > > >> > ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more > > >> > accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this > > >> > nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. > > >> > > > >> > But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really > > >> > recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel > > >> > in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend > > >> > in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page > > >> > 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a > > >> > nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather > > >> > than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any > > >> > other messages in the archives where anyone has talked > > >> > about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. > > >> > > > >> > So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good > > >> > thing to do, despite its ease of use. > > >> > > > >> > But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) > > >> > doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? > > >> > Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? > > >> > I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to > > >> > comment on this. > > >> > > > >> > Cheers ... > > >> > > > >> > Kim. > > >> > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > | 23449|23445|2010-06-03 20:26:15|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Water Makers|Martin, Water makers that use energy recovery, where the brine concentrate pressure is used to boost the feed pressure, can be quite efficient. I've seen advertisements for units that consume 1 amp hour per gallon (12 watt-hours) @ 12vdc. There are a lot mechanisms for energy recovery. Big systems use turbines in the brine concentrate to turn a feed booster pump. There is one with a rotating ceramic cylinder with 4 tubes down the middle, that almost appears to defy the laws of physics. The small ones use valves to take the concentrate brine flow into a piston to drive a smaller piston that pressurizes the incoming feed water. The difference in the area of the pistons is roughly equal to the energy used to drive permeate through the membranes. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "martin" To: Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 12:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Water Makers > Hi All: I was watching a documentary the other day on rowing across > oceans and was interested in what type of water maker they use on those > row boats. They only have small batteries and solar panels for their > energy source. Does anyone know the specifics of their systems? > Martin.. > > | 23450|23334|2010-06-03 21:07:00|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Brent, I would not call it "pleasure". Probably "preparation" would be better term. Working in 3D, is just best available option for me for now (not my first choice). With my "on the move" lifestyle, at this moment, I can carry my laptop (my boat model) with me. Would be very hard to do it with real project. And I am getting pretty good at it. I sent you couple of revisions of your boat's hull and if you find a time to give me several basic measurements from real boat (not from the plans), I give you 3D model for your hull with a linesplan (and pattern too, which you can compare with yours). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Sounds like you are thoroughly enjoying your project already, which is what "Pleasure " boats are all about, regardless of how you gain the pleasure. > Life is short. Have the desert first. > | 23451|23334|2010-06-04 14:18:11|brentswain38|Re: 40 footer modeling|That flat area you were worried about, on the midship centreline, could be greatly strengthened by making it into a big water tank. Baffles would add to the stiffness. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, I would not call it "pleasure". Probably "preparation" would be better term. > > Working in 3D, is just best available option for me for now (not my first choice). With my "on the move" lifestyle, at this moment, I can carry my laptop (my boat model) with me. Would be very hard to do it with real project. > > And I am getting pretty good at it. I sent you couple of revisions of your boat's hull and if you find a time to give me several basic measurements from real boat (not from the plans), I give you 3D model for your hull with a linesplan (and pattern too, which you can compare with yours). > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Sounds like you are thoroughly enjoying your project already, which is what "Pleasure " boats are all about, regardless of how you gain the pleasure. > > Life is short. Have the desert first. > > > | 23452|23452|2010-06-05 21:10:58|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|spruce boom|Brent, I just cut a black spruce in the woods near my house to make a boom. How long do you think I should wait before it is dry enough so I can use it? Martin.| 23453|23452|2010-06-05 23:14:43|Mark Hamill|spruce boom|I have cut black spruce and lodgepole pine and then used a draw knife immediately to take the bark off--waiting makes it more difficult. Get the shape and then coated with boiled linseed oil but I think the linseed oil was kind of a pain because it didn't dry for awhile. Sealed the ends. Anyway this was over 25 years ago. If you were going to need it immediately then just use it and then finish after the season?? You may end up with some checks anyway you do it. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23454|23426|2010-06-06 07:13:41|kimdxx|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|Brent, Gary, Andrew, and David ... Many thanks for your comments about the steel nibbler. Very interesting. I've decided to stick with the plasma cutter for cutting out the hull plates and the origami pattern. There seems to be very little distortion with the plasma cutter (compared to an oxy cutter). The trouble is I find it a bit tricky to cut freehand to a line with the plasma cutter (compared to an oxy cutter). That's why the nibbler initially appealed to me. I guess the solution is more practice with the plasma cutter. The nibbler may come in handy for smaller odds & ends later in the construction. Thanks again! Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com ______________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kimdxx" wrote: Hello all ... I've got free access to a small electric steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms the hull of my Swain 26 footer. It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any other messages in the archives where anyone has talked about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good thing to do, despite its ease of use. But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to comment on this. Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com ______________________________________________________ | 23455|23452|2010-06-06 07:40:43|martin demers|Re: spruce boom|Mark, That was my question,; if I can use it immediately and finish it later. If I do that would it be weaker? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:14:47 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] spruce boom I have cut black spruce and lodgepole pine and then used a draw knife immediately to take the bark off--waiting makes it more difficult. Get the shape and then coated with boiled linseed oil but I think the linseed oil was kind of a pain because it didn't dry for awhile. Sealed the ends. Anyway this was over 25 years ago. If you were going to need it immediately then just use it and then finish after the season?? You may end up with some checks anyway you do it. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ D�couvrez comment �changer avec vos vrais amis. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734398 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23456|23426|2010-06-06 09:03:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|On Sun, Jun 06, 2010 at 11:10:58AM -0000, kimdxx wrote: > > There seems to be very little distortion with the plasma > cutter (compared to an oxy cutter). The trouble is I find > it a bit tricky to cut freehand to a line with the plasma > cutter (compared to an oxy cutter). If you're going to use T-track on your mast (that's the stuff screwed to the back of the mast that takes the sail slides), take some and clamp it to the sheet you're working on, then clamp the plasma cutter to a slide (or better yet, a mainsheet car) that rides on it. Bingo - you've got perfect, dead-straight cuts every time. :) If you're not using T-track, just clamp a 2x4 to the sheet, maybe with a piece of flatbar facing the cut clamped to that, and use it as a guide. I had lots of fun using a plasma cutter when I was taking a welding class, but if I had to free-cut an entire boat's worth's of steel using it, I'd definitely be using something like the above options. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23457|23426|2010-06-06 13:12:24|theboilerflue|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|cutting free hand with a plasma is a lot easier than an oxy kit just make sure you're well braced, I always found it easier to cut moving sideways rather than to or away from you, using a nice heavy piece of nice heavy flatbar for a guide on straight cuts is a good idea, for fancy cuts if you take the drag cup off it let's you see the cut better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 06, 2010 at 11:10:58AM -0000, kimdxx wrote: > > > > There seems to be very little distortion with the plasma > > cutter (compared to an oxy cutter). The trouble is I find > > it a bit tricky to cut freehand to a line with the plasma > > cutter (compared to an oxy cutter). > > If you're going to use T-track on your mast (that's the stuff screwed to > the back of the mast that takes the sail slides), take some and clamp it > to the sheet you're working on, then clamp the plasma cutter to a slide > (or better yet, a mainsheet car) that rides on it. Bingo - you've got > perfect, dead-straight cuts every time. :) > > If you're not using T-track, just clamp a 2x4 to the sheet, maybe with a > piece of flatbar facing the cut clamped to that, and use it as a guide. > I had lots of fun using a plasma cutter when I was taking a welding > class, but if I had to free-cut an entire boat's worth's of steel using > it, I'd definitely be using something like the above options. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23458|23452|2010-06-06 13:52:58|Mark Hamill|Re: spruce boom|Martin: The navy used to use a lot trees without seasoning them. I would use it. I think that once you peel it and start to set it up you will find that the exterior starts to dry pretty quickly. My booms are laminated fir--as Brent has pointed out--wood can be high maintenance and mine are. Well the outboard ends need to be revarnished annually due to block damage which could be easily prevented with some thinking (but thought hurts--ha ha) I have often thought of using aluminum if I was going to a hot place (other than the really hot one I have been told I am destined for) but on the other hand I like to look at the wood. However, on the topic of wood I found the following thouhgts. "I could be wrong, but it seems likely to me that most solid masts are not fully seasoned when they are stepped, so I would not get too worried about picking mast stock way early just so you can season it a lot." "Native spruce works alright. If you get checks (and you will) beeswax melted into them with a heat gun works and will hold paint or stain. Beeswax is available from beekeepers here in Maine (if the bees rejuvenate!)" "I would go for spruce rather than pine. Spruce tend to have smaller branches (smaller knots) than pine. Black spruce growing in a swamp would have very small branches (and be harder to get to, except in winter). A tree in your yard would probably have large branches (large knots) which isn't too good for strength" Go with the wood--you can always do something later if you wish--but what you are doing has been done by thousands before you -- so it has a noble history which you can reflect on reclining in the cockpit of an evening. MarkH I have cut black spruce and lodgepole pine and then used a draw knife immediately to take the bark off--waiting makes it more difficult. Get the shape and then coated with boiled linseed oil but I think the linseed oil was kind of a pain because it didn't dry for awhile. Sealed the ends. Anyway this was over 25 years ago. If you were going to need it immediately then just use it and then finish after the season?? You may end up with some checks anyway you do it. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Découvrez comment échanger avec vos vrais amis. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734398 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links| 23459|23452|2010-06-06 14:20:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: spruce boom|On Sun, Jun 06, 2010 at 10:52:46AM -0700, Mark Hamill wrote: > > "I could be wrong, but it seems likely to me that most solid masts are not > fully seasoned when they are stepped, so I would not get too worried about > picking mast stock way early just so you can season it a lot." > "Native spruce works alright. If you get checks (and you will) beeswax > melted into them with a heat gun works and will hold paint or stain. Beeswax > is available from beekeepers here in Maine (if the bees rejuvenate!)" > "I would go for spruce rather than pine. Spruce tend to have smaller > branches (smaller knots) than pine. Black spruce growing in a swamp would > have very small branches (and be harder to get to, except in winter). A tree > in your yard would probably have large branches (large knots) which isn't > too good for strength" > Go with the wood--you can always do something later if you wish--but what > you are doing has been done by thousands before you -- so it has a noble > history which you can reflect on reclining in the cockpit of an evening. This reminds me of a _wonderful_ passage from Farley Mowat's "The Boat Who Wouldn't Float": Spit-and-polish yachtsmen may shudder at the thought of anyone cutting down a tree one day and stepping it as a mast two days later with the sap still flowing out of it. Let them shudder. Those spars are still in the vessel as I write and they will last her lifetime, for Newfoundland black spruce, grown on the edge of the ocean, is one of the toughest woods in all the world. However, it does have one peculiarity. The grain does not run straight up and down as it does in trees that grow in more favoured locations. In order to withstand the might of the everlasting gales, shore-grown black spruce grows twisted like a corkscrew or a barber's pole. This gives it great strength but, as the dead tree dries, it tends to unwind. What this meant to us was that both our masts gradually untwisted, turning the crosstrees or spreaders in a circular movement. The cure was simple enough. Every month or two we simply eased off the stays, lifted up the masts, and restepped them after giving each a quarter turn. No problem. Now *that's* bullet-proof design for you. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23460|23334|2010-06-07 02:54:42|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Full length tank will give me about 300 US Gallons of total capacity. Minus engine bilge and mid-bilge should leave me about 200-250 US Gallons of tankage. Not bad. Just need to think where to put separators for fuel tank. Probably, will be better to split it (make fore and aft tank on both sides of water tank). And make small waste tank. Or maybe make "raised" fuel tank between twin keels (on top of water tank/or between) for better structural tween keel support. It is more complicated, but may be worth of it.... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > That flat area you were worried about, on the midship centreline, could be greatly strengthened by making it into a big water tank. Baffles would add to the stiffness. > | 23461|23461|2010-06-07 04:39:59|kimdxx|Stitch-welding.|Greetings all ... The steel for my 26-footer arrives in 5 days! Soon I'll be able to start! I had expected to get the steel earlier; but I've spent a lot of time searching for a steel supplier who would sell me plates long enough for the hull. And in that respect I've completely failed. Despite calling pretty well every steel merchant within 200 miles of here, I just cannot get 3mm plate longer than 6 meters. Maybe if my order was worth tens of thousands of dollars they might have come to the party; but otherwise definitely not. So my hull will have a vertical seam amidships above the chine. But that's OK. Anyway, my question is about stitch welding ... From what I've read in this group, and the construction photo's I've seen of Brent's designs, it seems that it's possible to just stitch-weld absolutely *everything* together during construction, and *not* do any final full-seam welding until the very end. Is that right? The chines, the centerline, all the deck, the cabin, the cockpit, etc, etc, are all just held in place during most of the steel construction phase with only stitch-welds? I know that some areas are only ever stitch-welded, and are never fully welded (eg: the inside hull-deck join, stringers to the hull, etc). But except for those areas, is it true that it's not necessary to do any final welding (ie: joining the gaps between the stitches) until just before sandblasting? If this is so, then I can see a number of advantages: I assume welding distortion would be greatly reduced, and an amateur welder (that's me!) could hire a pro for a short while at the end to do all the final welding (if they didn't feel confident enough with their welding skills to do that themselves). I think I've read elsewhere that a long butt weld could be weaker than the same length that's been fully welded with numerous stitch-welds, so maybe there are strength advantages too. Finally: If stitch-welding everything is OK, and leaving final welding until the end is OK, what would be (average) suitable stitch-welding specs? A 1" weld then a 6" gap? Or a 2" weld then a 4" gap? Or a 1" weld then a 8" gap? If it makes a difference to the weld/space dimensions: most of the material for my boat is 3mm plate (slightly less than 1/8"). I guess my questions above must sound extremely basic for many of you; but this is my first steel boat, and any advice would be greatly appreciated! :-) Cheers ... Kim. 123kim at mailbolt dot com _______________________________________________| 23462|23461|2010-06-07 12:40:53|theboilerflue|Re: Stitch-welding.|> read in this group, and the construction photo's I've seen of Brent's designs, it seems that it's possible to just stitch-weld absolutely *everything* together during construction, and *not* do any final full-seam welding until the very end. > doing the welding along the inside of the center seam and chines completely wouldn't very hard it's pretty much all on the flat and welding it would insure that it doesn't come apart or move when you lift it to put the keels in, when I got my boat those were welded on the inside and I had to do the outside. The outside of that center seam is by the way the worst weld to do on the whole boat, all upside down with no room to hide from sparks. The stringers and deck frames are just stich welded but the rest of the deck is welded on the top side mostly. I don't imagine there'd be that much distortion if it's all tack welded just don't run very long welds just use 1/3 of a rod then move somewhere else 1/3 rod. Distortion is just caused by the shrinking/expansion from the heat, then being welded while it's still out of alignment. Say when you weld those big plates together to make the full sheets, if you were to start on one end and just weld fully all the way from one end to the other the seam would start to split apart and by the time you make it to the other end there'd be a half inch gap but if you tack weld it all together so the plates join up were they should be joined and spread the heat out when you weld it up fully you should have no problems, it's really not that hard just make short welds and move around a lot. I would weld the plates together fully on both sides before you pull the boat together. If I were doing it I'd use about a 1/3 of a rod which would be about 2-3 inches then move an arms length or so until the next one. That is pretty thin plate, what size rod are you going to use? But other than those main welds I think hiring a good fast welder to do it all would save you a lot of time, depends how much you value your time, you will be missing out on all the valuable welding experience (but there is still plenty after the hull is finished)| 23463|23452|2010-06-07 19:12:24|brentswain38|Re: spruce boom|I used green fir for my last boat. It dried in place, no problem. Spruce doesn't warp, unlike some other woods. Go ahead and use it green. origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > Brent, > > I just cut a black spruce in the woods near my house to make a boom. How long do you think I should wait before it is dry enough so I can use it? > > Martin. > p micu unlike yellow cedar and somneothjers. Go ahead and use it green.| 23464|23464|2010-06-07 22:54:49|jpronk1|If I knew then what I know now!|I have put my BS 36 project on hold for now. I have a lot done already. I have most of the deck hardware made. I have the bulwark pipe, life lines and all the stainless for hand rails. I also have about 2500lb of lead. What I also have is a 1973 Catalina 27. The more I work on that boat the more I hate production fiberglass boats. I striped all the deck hardware off and have drilled out all the old bolt holes. With a 3/4" flat bottom drill I've drilled through the deck and the plywood core, stopping before I drill through the bottom layer of fiberglass. I am filling the holes with thickened epoxy and I will drill out new holes through the solid epoxy after I paint the deck. The big problem is that the head liner is only one thin layer of glass mat and the core is not to solid around the bolt holes. Once I cut through the top layer of glass there is not to much stopping the drill from entering the cabin. The list of work this boat needs just keeps on changing. I want to sell it but I feel bad selling a peace of junk and trying to get good money for it. So I will finish the work that I started and do the work that needs to be done. I need to re-glass all of the interior to the hull, most of it was done with just one layer of thin glass tape. Soon I will be building a real boat from steel! James| 23465|23452|2010-06-08 06:44:55|martin demers|Re: spruce boom|Brent, I find it has a lot of flex, I presume it will loose some as it dries. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 23:10:23 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: spruce boom I used green fir for my last boat. It dried in place, no problem. Spruce doesn't warp, unlike some other woods. Go ahead and use it green. origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > Brent, > > I just cut a black spruce in the woods near my house to make a boom. How long do you think I should wait before it is dry enough so I can use it? > > Martin. > p micu unlike yellow cedar and somneothjers. Go ahead and use it green. _________________________________________________________________ Occupez vos temps morts avec les jeux Messenger! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734395 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23466|23464|2010-06-08 07:09:29|Matt Malone|Re: If I knew then what I know now!|Solution to when you break through into the cabin: Packing tape. Just put packing tape on the inside pour your epoxy, peel off the packing tape when the epoxy is hard, and you will end up with a smooth interior surface. I also used packing tape on the outside so the epoxy formed a flat, but inclined surface that matched the deck where I was. When I was doing this I also cut out a bit more of the core around the hole, so the epoxy I added formed a bigger puck and stuck to the underside of the deck in the area around the hole. It seemed stronger to me. To get the epoxy into the space between the packing tape, drilled a small hole in the deck uphill of the repair, and used plasticine to form a funnel at that hole. I poured my epoxy in the funnel, and it fills the void. To get the air bubbles out, I poked tiny holes with a sewing needle at the bubbles. Careful to put only a little epoxy in at a time so that the heat of the epoxy setting does not damage the epoxy or packing tape. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 02:53:55 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] If I knew then what I know now! I have put my BS 36 project on hold for now. I have a lot done already. I have most of the deck hardware made. I have the bulwark pipe, life lines and all the stainless for hand rails. I also have about 2500lb of lead. What I also have is a 1973 Catalina 27. The more I work on that boat the more I hate production fiberglass boats. I striped all the deck hardware off and have drilled out all the old bolt holes. With a 3/4" flat bottom drill I've drilled through the deck and the plywood core, stopping before I drill through the bottom layer of fiberglass. I am filling the holes with thickened epoxy and I will drill out new holes through the solid epoxy after I paint the deck. The big problem is that the head liner is only one thin layer of glass mat and the core is not to solid around the bolt holes. Once I cut through the top layer of glass there is not to much stopping the drill from entering the cabin. The list of work this boat needs just keeps on changing. I want to sell it but I feel bad selling a peace of junk and trying to get good money for it. So I will finish the work that I started and do the work that needs to be done. I need to re-glass all of the interior to the hull, most of it was done with just one layer of thin glass tape. Soon I will be building a real boat from steel! James _________________________________________________________________ Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23467|23464|2010-06-08 07:30:35|James Pronk|Re: If I knew then what I know now!|Thanks Matt, I did almost the same thing.  It will be great when I can weld my deck hardware on to the boat. I hate working with this frozen snot! James --- On Tue, 6/8/10, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] If I knew then what I know now! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 7:09 AM Solution to when you break through into the cabin:  Packing tape.  Just put packing tape on the inside pour your epoxy, peel off the packing tape when the epoxy is hard, and you will end up with a smooth interior surface.   I also used packing tape on the outside so the epoxy formed a flat, but inclined surface that matched the deck where I was.   When I was doing this I also cut out a bit more of the core around the hole, so the epoxy I added formed a bigger puck and stuck to the underside of the deck in the area around the hole.   It seemed stronger to me.  To get the epoxy into the space between the packing tape, drilled a small hole in the deck uphill of the repair, and used plasticine to form a funnel at that hole.  I poured my epoxy in the funnel, and it fills the void.   To get the air bubbles out, I poked tiny holes with a sewing needle at the bubbles.   Careful to put only a little epoxy in at a time so that the heat of the epoxy setting does not damage the epoxy or packing tape.    Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 02:53:55 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] If I knew then what I know now!                         I have put my BS 36 project on hold for now. I have a lot done already. I have most of the deck hardware made. I have the bulwark pipe, life lines and all the stainless for hand rails. I also have about 2500lb of lead. What I also have is a 1973 Catalina 27. The more I work on that boat the more I hate production fiberglass boats. I striped all the deck hardware off and have drilled out all the old bolt holes. With a 3/4" flat bottom drill I've drilled through the deck and the plywood core, stopping before I drill through the bottom layer of fiberglass. I am filling the holes with thickened epoxy and I will drill out new holes through the solid epoxy after I paint the deck. The big problem is that the head liner is only one thin layer of glass mat and the core is not to solid around the bolt holes. Once I cut through the top layer of glass there is not to much stopping the drill from entering the cabin. The list of work this boat needs just keeps on changing. I want to sell it but I feel bad selling a peace of junk and trying to get good money for it. So I will finish the work that I started and do the work that needs to be done. I need to re-glass all of the interior to the hull, most of it was done with just one layer of thin glass tape. Soon I will be building a real boat from steel! James                                                _________________________________________________________________ Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23468|23445|2010-06-08 08:27:08|martin demers|Re: Water Makers|there is a portable hand operated water maker sold by katadyn that is used by kayakers and also into lifeboats.It is quite easy to use but takes long before you have 1 liter of water. martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mforster@... Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 16:06:35 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Water Makers Hi All: I was watching a documentary the other day on rowing across oceans and was interested in what type of water maker they use on those row boats. They only have small batteries and solar panels for their energy source. Does anyone know the specifics of their systems? Martin.. _________________________________________________________________ D�couvrez comment �changer avec vos vrais amis. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734398 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23469|23445|2010-06-08 08:54:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: Water Makers|On Tue, Jun 08, 2010 at 08:26:59AM -0400, martin demers wrote: > > there is a portable hand operated water maker sold by katadyn that is > used by kayakers and also into lifeboats.It is quite easy to use but > takes long before you have 1 liter of water. Yeah, a number of companies make those. I've often wondered what would happen if you hooked up a small motor and an eccentric cam to one of those to do the pumping for you. Seems like just a small amount of energy would produce a good bit of water, done that way. (Mate that up with a small solar panel, and you can make a fortune selling it as a necessary addition to "abandon ship" bags. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23470|23470|2010-06-08 10:59:42|SHANE ROTHWELL|If I knew then...|James, At least it's just a little boat. too bad you can't just burn it. taking it to the dump would be just good money after bad, then again.......... The silver lining may be that once you have dealt with it you can move on to the steel. BIG honking backing plates behind all the fasteners for your deack hardware will go a long way... Ahhh, just burn it and be done with it Good luck If I knew then what I know now! Posted by: "jpronk1" jpronk1@... jpronk1 Mon Jun 7, 2010 7:54 pm (PDT) I have put my BS 36 project on hold for now. I have a lot done already. I have most of the deck hardware made. I have the bulwark pipe, life lines and all the stainless for hand rails. I also have about 2500lb of lead. What I also have is a 1973 Catalina 27. The more I work on that boat the more I hate production fiberglass boats. I striped all the deck hardware off and have drilled out all the old bolt holes. With a 3/4" flat bottom drill I've drilled through the deck and the plywood core, stopping before I drill through the bottom layer of fiberglass. I am filling the holes with thickened epoxy and I will drill out new holes through the solid epoxy after I paint the deck. The big problem is that the head liner is only one thin layer of glass mat and the core is not to solid around the bolt holes. Once I cut through the top layer of glass there is not to much stopping the drill from entering the cabin. The list of work this boat needs just keeps on changing. I want to sell it but I feel bad selling a peace of junk and trying to get good money for it. So I will finish the work that I started and do the work that needs to be done. I need to re-glass all of the interior to the hull, most of it was done with just one layer of thin glass tape. Soon I will be building a real boat from steel! James| 23471|23426|2010-06-09 08:18:42|mauro gonzaga|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|I can't understand what nibbling means. Does ti means cutting with a blade or a tool? However srinkage of the edges happens on oxigen torh cutting as well. To have the plate flat again you have to resolve the shrinkage of the edges bu hammering them on a solid surface. Hammering result in elongating the edges and bringing the entire plate to is original shape: perfectly flat. Mauro --- On Fri, 6/4/10, cumorglas wrote: From: cumorglas Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Nibbling steel plate. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 2:02 AM   that is what i was thinking. don't you guys live somewhere where you can rent a plasma cutter for a long weekend? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes , it definitely was a nibbler. Plasma has made them redundant. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Brent, > > Are you certain it was cut with a nibbler? I ask because I also had a > > handheld shear that would cut 1/8" steel, and they were available in even > > heavier capacity. It had a reciprocating blade very similar to the nibbler, > > but didn't remove a slug. It did exactly what you describe, and it was hard > > to pull the plates edges together for welding. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 3:59 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Nibbling steel plate. > > > > > > >A friend bought an unfinished hull ,which had it's plate cut with a > > >nibbler. When the plate was wrapped around a curve, the outsides were > > >expanded compared to the inside, and the plate bent in a concave way, the > > >opposite of what he wanted. A torch would have given him a slight compound > > >curve helping in plating the round bilged hull. As it was it took > > >considerable work to shrink the edges into the compound shapes he wanted. > > >It probably wouldn't be a problem on relatively flat surfaces, like decks. > > > Shrinkage of edges is an advantage on origami hulls, as it gives one a > > > slightly compound curve on hull plates. It's a pain in the ass on cabin > > > sides . > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> I've used a nibbler in the past on sheet steel. Unlike a shear it does > > >> NOT > > >> distort a flat plate, the plate stays flat after being cut out. A torch > > >> on > > >> the other hand will warp the hell out of flat plate. Plate shears also > > >> warp > > >> a plate. So I don't get why a nibbler would be a problem. It doesn't > > >> hammer > > >> the metal, it shears it, in tiny little pieces. I suspect nibblers don't > > >> get used as much because they are quite expensive, several thousand for > > >> the > > >> one I used. > > >> > > >> Gary H. Lucas > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "kimdxx" > > >> To: > > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 7:33 AM > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Nibbling steel plate. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > Hello all ... > > >> > > > >> > I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric > > >> > steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to > > >> > cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms > > >> > the hull of my Swain 26 footer. > > >> > > > >> > It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it > > >> > went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot > > >> > knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, > > >> > is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, > > >> > when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very > > >> > precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed > > >> > ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more > > >> > accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this > > >> > nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. > > >> > > > >> > But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really > > >> > recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel > > >> > in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend > > >> > in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page > > >> > 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a > > >> > nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather > > >> > than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any > > >> > other messages in the archives where anyone has talked > > >> > about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. > > >> > > > >> > So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good > > >> > thing to do, despite its ease of use. > > >> > > > >> > But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) > > >> > doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? > > >> > Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? > > >> > I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to > > >> > comment on this. > > >> > > > >> > Cheers ... > > >> > > > >> > Kim. > > >> > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23472|23472|2010-06-09 09:16:39|Michael J|47' Ripples|Hey everyone, I've been lurking here for quite a while and like this group. Perhaps someone here can answer this question: Who designed the 47' Ripples? She does look sweet! Thanks, Michael| 23473|23426|2010-06-09 12:33:10|David Frantz|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|Hi Mauro A nibbler is a hand held power tool used in sheet metal work. In effect it is a powered punch and die system that takes small bites (Thus the term nibbler) out of the sheet metal. Generally these are very expensive low volume tools. Also don't confuse them with powered shears which are an entirely different animal. Generally powered shears handle lighter metals where as nibblers can handle a wider array of thicknesses. For very thin sheet stock you can buy hand operated nibblers. The tool, like many others, has it's uses but I don't see it as practicle for the bulk of a boat builders needs. However when you need one there often aren't any good alternatives. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 9, 2010, at 8:18 AM, mauro gonzaga wrote: > I can't understand what nibbling means. Does ti means cutting with a > blade or a tool? However srinkage of the edges happens on oxigen > torh cutting as well. To have the plate flat again you have to > resolve the shrinkage of the edges bu hammering them on a solid > surface. Hammering result in elongating the edges and bringing the > entire plate to is original shape: perfectly flat. > Mauro > > --- On Fri, 6/4/10, cumorglas wrote: > > From: cumorglas > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Nibbling steel plate. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 2:02 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that is what i was thinking. don't you guys live somewhere > where you can rent a plasma cutter for a long weekend? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > >> > >> Yes , it definitely was a nibbler. Plasma has made them redundant. > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Brent, > >>> Are you certain it was cut with a nibbler? I ask because I also >>> had a > >>> handheld shear that would cut 1/8" steel, and they were available >>> in even > >>> heavier capacity. It had a reciprocating blade very similar to >>> the nibbler, > >>> but didn't remove a slug. It did exactly what you describe, and >>> it was hard > >>> to pull the plates edges together for welding. > >>> > >>> Gary H. Lucas > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "brentswain38" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 3:59 PM > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Nibbling steel plate. > >>> > >>> > >>>> A friend bought an unfinished hull ,which had it's plate cut with a > >>>> nibbler. When the plate was wrapped around a curve, the outsides >>>> were > >>>> expanded compared to the inside, and the plate bent in a concave >>>> way, the > >>>> opposite of what he wanted. A torch would have given him a >>>> slight compound > >>>> curve helping in plating the round bilged hull. As it was it took > >>>> considerable work to shrink the edges into the compound shapes he >>>> wanted. > >>>> It probably wouldn't be a problem on relatively flat surfaces, >>>> like decks. > >>>> Shrinkage of edges is an advantage on origami hulls, as it gives >>>> one a > >>>> slightly compound curve on hull plates. It's a pain in the ass on >>>> cabin > >>>> sides . > >>>> > >>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I've used a nibbler in the past on sheet steel. Unlike a shear >>>>> it does > >>>>> NOT > >>>>> distort a flat plate, the plate stays flat after being cut out. >>>>> A torch > >>>>> on > >>>>> the other hand will warp the hell out of flat plate. Plate >>>>> shears also > >>>>> warp > >>>>> a plate. So I don't get why a nibbler would be a problem. It >>>>> doesn't > >>>>> hammer > >>>>> the metal, it shears it, in tiny little pieces. I suspect >>>>> nibblers don't > >>>>> get used as much because they are quite expensive, several >>>>> thousand for > >>>>> the > >>>>> one I used. > >>>>> > >>>>> Gary H. Lucas > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "kimdxx" > >>>>> To: > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 7:33 AM > >>>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Nibbling steel plate. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hello all ... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric > >>>>>> steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to > >>>>>> cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms > >>>>>> the hull of my Swain 26 footer. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it > >>>>>> went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot > >>>>>> knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, > >>>>>> is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, > >>>>>> when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very > >>>>>> precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed > >>>>>> ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more > >>>>>> accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this > >>>>>> nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really > >>>>>> recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel > >>>>>> in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend > >>>>>> in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page > >>>>>> 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a > >>>>>> nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather > >>>>>> than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any > >>>>>> other messages in the archives where anyone has talked > >>>>>> about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good > >>>>>> thing to do, despite its ease of use. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) > >>>>>> doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? > >>>>>> Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? > >>>>>> I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to > >>>>>> comment on this. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Cheers ... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Kim. > >>>>>> 123kim at mailbolt dot com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23474|23426|2010-06-09 12:36:32|Carl Volkwein|Re: Nibbling steel plate.|A nibbler is a tool that punches real smalll holes that join up to make a solid cut I don't think the shrinkage would be too great.I think they come in electric or pnumatic carlvolkwein. --- On Wed, 6/9/10, mauro gonzaga wrote: From: mauro gonzaga Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Nibbling steel plate. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 8:18 AM   I can't understand what nibbling means. Does ti means cutting with a blade or a tool? However srinkage of the edges happens on oxigen torh cutting as well. To have the plate flat again you have to resolve the shrinkage of the edges bu hammering them on a solid surface. Hammering result in elongating the edges and bringing the entire plate to is original shape: perfectly flat. Mauro --- On Fri, 6/4/10, cumorglas wrote: From: cumorglas Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Nibbling steel plate. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 2:02 AM   that is what i was thinking. don't you guys live somewhere where you can rent a plasma cutter for a long weekend? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes , it definitely was a nibbler. Plasma has made them redundant. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Brent, > > Are you certain it was cut with a nibbler? I ask because I also had a > > handheld shear that would cut 1/8" steel, and they were available in even > > heavier capacity. It had a reciprocating blade very similar to the nibbler, > > but didn't remove a slug. It did exactly what you describe, and it was hard > > to pull the plates edges together for welding. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 3:59 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Nibbling steel plate. > > > > > > >A friend bought an unfinished hull ,which had it's plate cut with a > > >nibbler. When the plate was wrapped around a curve, the outsides were > > >expanded compared to the inside, and the plate bent in a concave way, the > > >opposite of what he wanted. A torch would have given him a slight compound > > >curve helping in plating the round bilged hull. As it was it took > > >considerable work to shrink the edges into the compound shapes he wanted. > > >It probably wouldn't be a problem on relatively flat surfaces, like decks. > > > Shrinkage of edges is an advantage on origami hulls, as it gives one a > > > slightly compound curve on hull plates. It's a pain in the ass on cabin > > > sides . > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> I've used a nibbler in the past on sheet steel. Unlike a shear it does > > >> NOT > > >> distort a flat plate, the plate stays flat after being cut out. A torch > > >> on > > >> the other hand will warp the hell out of flat plate. Plate shears also > > >> warp > > >> a plate. So I don't get why a nibbler would be a problem. It doesn't > > >> hammer > > >> the metal, it shears it, in tiny little pieces. I suspect nibblers don't > > >> get used as much because they are quite expensive, several thousand for > > >> the > > >> one I used. > > >> > > >> Gary H. Lucas > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "kimdxx" > > >> To: > > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 7:33 AM > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Nibbling steel plate. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > Hello all ... > > >> > > > >> > I've got free access to a small, hand-held electric > > >> > steel-plate nibbler, which I was thinking of using to > > >> > cut out the origami pattern in the 3mm plate that forms > > >> > the hull of my Swain 26 footer. > > >> > > > >> > It's supposed to be able to cut up to 4mm plate, and it > > >> > went through the 3mm plate that I tested it on like a hot > > >> > knife through butter! It seems to make a very clean cut, > > >> > is fast, and does pretty tight curves. Most importantly, > > >> > when cutting with this nibbler it's dead easy to very > > >> > precisely follow a line drawn on the steel. So it seemed > > >> > ideal for the job. It would be much easier, and much more > > >> > accurate, to cut out the pattern in the plate using this > > >> > nibbler compared to plasma or oxy cutting methods. > > >> > > > >> > But then I noticed that in his book, Brent doesn't really > > >> > recommend them, as apparently they can "peen" the steel > > >> > in the area of the cut, which could make the plate bend > > >> > in the opposite direction that you want it to go (page > > >> > 4). And again, in message #8255 Brent suggests that a > > >> > nibbler might make the plate take a concave shape (rather > > >> > than the convex shape that's required). I can't find any > > >> > other messages in the archives where anyone has talked > > >> > about using a nibbler to cut out the hull plate patterns. > > >> > > > >> > So now I'm not sure if using a nibbler would be a good > > >> > thing to do, despite its ease of use. > > >> > > > >> > But perhaps using a nibbler on such very thin plate (3mm) > > >> > doesn't cause any problems? Or maybe it makes them worse? > > >> > Or maybe the "peening" gets worse as the blade gets blunt? > > >> > I don't know. I would be grateful if anyone would care to > > >> > comment on this. > > >> > > > >> > Cheers ... > > >> > > > >> > Kim. > > >> > 123kim at mailbolt dot com > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23475|23475|2010-06-09 13:32:09|wild_explorer|Tween keel - iron vs. lead ballast|After doing some calculations, I do not see a big reason of using lead in twin keel version. Let say it is need to have 1.5 tonne weight for each ballasted keel (3 tonne total) for the hull. It gives me some information for calculation: Density of lead = 11.34 t/cub.m Density of iron = 7.8 t/cub.m Volume needed for lead in one keel = 1.5/11.34 = 0.132 cub.m Volume needed for iron in one keel = 1.5/7.8 = 0.193 cub.m Let say 0.14 cub.m for lead and 0.2 cub.m for iron. 0.14/0.2=0.7 (70%) - difference 30% It might make difference for single keel, but not for tween keels. Let say, I use 0.2 cub.m. keels. Tween keels are placed vertically above horizontal end of the hull. The difference in vertical center of gravity for Lead ballasted keel v.s. Iron ballasted keel will be about 6 inches difference (below the hull) - not big deal. IF I go for Iron BULB (or round bar) the difference will be even smaller. Question: Why not to make keel narrower (fore to aft) and attach round iron bar (0.2 cub.m) to it instead of using lead? It easier and cheaper to find iron round bar than lead. Some cups could be attached to the bar to improve fluid flow dynamics. Am I missing something here?| 23476|23472|2010-06-09 15:27:17|brentswain38|Re: 47' Ripples|Where is she? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael J" wrote: > > Hey everyone, > > I've been lurking here for quite a while and like this group. Perhaps someone here can answer this question: Who designed the 47' Ripples? She does look sweet! > > Thanks, > > Michael > | 23477|23475|2010-06-09 15:28:42|brentswain38|Re: Tween keel - iron vs. lead ballast|Depends how much air space you have around the iron. Filling that with lead helps a lot. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > After doing some calculations, I do not see a big reason of using lead in twin keel version. > > Let say it is need to have 1.5 tonne weight for each ballasted keel (3 tonne total) for the hull. > > It gives me some information for calculation: > Density of lead = 11.34 t/cub.m > Density of iron = 7.8 t/cub.m > > Volume needed for lead in one keel = 1.5/11.34 = 0.132 cub.m > Volume needed for iron in one keel = 1.5/7.8 = 0.193 cub.m > > Let say 0.14 cub.m for lead and 0.2 cub.m for iron. > > 0.14/0.2=0.7 (70%) - difference 30% > > It might make difference for single keel, but not for tween keels. Let say, I use 0.2 cub.m. keels. Tween keels are placed vertically above horizontal end of the hull. The difference in vertical center of gravity for Lead ballasted keel v.s. Iron ballasted keel will be about 6 inches difference (below the hull) - not big deal. > > IF I go for Iron BULB (or round bar) the difference will be even smaller. > > Question: Why not to make keel narrower (fore to aft) and attach round iron bar (0.2 cub.m) to it instead of using lead? It easier and cheaper to find iron round bar than lead. Some cups could be attached to the bar to improve fluid flow dynamics. > > Am I missing something here? > | 23478|23461|2010-06-09 16:27:09|billxx.smith|Re: Stitch-welding.|Many thanks for the tips, Haidan. Yes, 3mm is pretty thin plate. But he 26-footer is a small boat, and I guess anything thicker would be too heavy. Should be more than strong enough, 'tho. I'll be using 2.5mm rods. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > read in this group, and the construction photo's I've seen > of Brent's designs, it seems that it's possible to just > stitch-weld absolutely *everything* together during construction, > and *not* do any final full-seam welding until the very end. doing the welding along the inside of the center seam and chines completely wouldn't very hard it's pretty much all on the flat and welding it would insure that it doesn't come apart or move when you lift it to put the keels in, when I got my boat those were welded on the inside and I had to do the outside. The outside of that center seam is by the way the worst weld to do on the whole boat, all upside down with no room to hide from sparks. The stringers and deck frames are just stich welded but the rest of the deck is welded on the top side mostly. I don't imagine there'd be that much distortion if it's all tack welded just don't run very long welds just use 1/3 of a rod then move somewhere else 1/3 rod. Distortion is just caused by the shrinking/expansion from the heat, then being welded while it's still out of alignment. Say when you weld those big plates together to make the full sheets, if you were to start on one end and just weld fully all the way from one end to the other the seam would start to split apart and by the time you make it to the other end there'd be a half inch gap but if you tack weld it all together so the plates join up were they should be joined and spread the heat out when you weld it up fully you should have no problems, it's really not that hard just make short welds and move around a lot. I would weld the plates together fully on both sides before you pull the boat together. If I were doing it I'd use about a 1/3 of a rod which would be about 2-3 inches then move an arms length or so until the next one. That is pretty thin plate, what size rod are you going to use? But other than those main welds I think hiring a good fast welder to do it all would save you a lot of time, depends how much you value your time, you will be missing out on all the valuable welding experience (but there is still plenty after the hull is finished) _______________________________________________ | 23479|23475|2010-06-09 17:45:36|wild_explorer|Re: Tween keel - iron vs. lead ballast|Brent, what I meant, is not to use iron instead of lead in existing keel, but to change keel's design a little. How about using strong thick central keel's plate with round bar (bulb) welded to the end, and have 2 transverse plates which connect keels inside the hull (with offset in vertical direction)? It will be self supporting structure which able to carry itself (about 3 tonnes) and hull weight (about 5-6 tonnes). Thin plates could be used to make desired shape of the keel (not as structural element). Voids could be filled with water. It does not help to have the lead above the horizontal end of the hull anyway... Will it work? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Depends how much air space you have around the iron. Filling that with lead helps a lot. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > After doing some calculations, I do not see a big reason of using lead in twin keel version. > > > > Let say it is need to have 1.5 tonne weight for each ballasted keel (3 tonne total) for the hull. > > > > It gives me some information for calculation: > > Density of lead = 11.34 t/cub.m > > Density of iron = 7.8 t/cub.m > > > > Volume needed for lead in one keel = 1.5/11.34 = 0.132 cub.m > > Volume needed for iron in one keel = 1.5/7.8 = 0.193 cub.m > > > > Let say 0.14 cub.m for lead and 0.2 cub.m for iron. > > > > 0.14/0.2=0.7 (70%) - difference 30% > > > > It might make difference for single keel, but not for tween keels. Let say, I use 0.2 cub.m. keels. Tween keels are placed vertically above horizontal end of the hull. The difference in vertical center of gravity for Lead ballasted keel v.s. Iron ballasted keel will be about 6 inches difference (below the hull) - not big deal. > > > > IF I go for Iron BULB (or round bar) the difference will be even smaller. > > > > Question: Why not to make keel narrower (fore to aft) and attach round iron bar (0.2 cub.m) to it instead of using lead? It easier and cheaper to find iron round bar than lead. Some cups could be attached to the bar to improve fluid flow dynamics. > > > > Am I missing something here? > > > | 23480|23445|2010-06-09 18:14:39|ANDREW AIREY|Water Makers|Hook it up to a bicycle crank and get some exersize as well - see Phil Bolgers 'Colonel Hasler design cheers Andy Airey| 23481|23472|2010-06-09 18:43:33|Michael J|Re: 47' Ripples|She is in the photos section. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Where is she? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael J" wrote: > > > > Hey everyone, > > > > I've been lurking here for quite a while and like this group. Perhaps someone here can answer this question: Who designed the 47' Ripples? She does look sweet! > > > > Thanks, > > > > Michael > > > | 23482|23482|2010-06-09 19:01:24|tropical_breeze52|just looked at Naniimo 47 with the keel drives what are they powered|Just checking the photos and found some one has added a bilge keel drive I wonder what powering it and how they set up the drive system| 23483|23482|2010-06-09 20:20:37|kingsknight4life|Re: just looked at Naniimo 47 with the keel drives what are they pow|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Just checking the photos and found some one has added a bilge keel drive I wonder what powering it and how they set up the drive system > i've seen that boat before it is hydraulic drives in each keel? I'm not sure how it works but they are hydrauic drives. Rowland| 23484|23484|2010-06-10 08:10:19|edward|Trim tab and vane|Hi Brent, The rudder axis and the trim rab axis are not the same and the vane shaft axis, which I haven't built yet maybe not quite the same axis as the trim tab either. Is there anything to watch for when I build and the vane and shaft assembly? Regards, Ted| 23485|23461|2010-06-10 10:18:00|Dave Ladd|Re: Stitch-welding.|So, I'm thinking of doing the 26 footer, also. Question: Can the 3mm steel be welded with a 120V MIG? I don't mind buying a 120V buzz box, instead, if I have to. But going to 220V is a big step for me as I currently don't have it. And: is the 26' a twin keel? Are there study plans or anything I can look at to get more details before buying plans? Does Brent sell the plans? Thanks in advance! On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 4:21 PM, billxx.smith wrote: > > Many thanks for the tips, Haidan. > > Yes, 3mm is pretty thin plate. But he 26-footer is a small boat, and I > guess anything thicker would be too heavy. Should be more than strong > enough, 'tho. I'll be using 2.5mm rods. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > read in this group, and the construction photo's I've seen > > of Brent's designs, it seems that it's possible to just > > stitch-weld absolutely *everything* together during construction, > > and *not* do any final full-seam welding until the very end. > > doing the welding along the inside of the center seam and chines completely > wouldn't very hard it's pretty much all on the flat and welding it would > insure that it doesn't come apart or move when you lift it to put the keels > in, when I got my boat those were welded on the inside and I had to do the > outside. The outside of that center seam is by the way the worst weld to do > on the whole boat, all upside down with no room to hide from sparks. The > stringers and deck frames are just stich welded but the rest of the deck is > welded on the top side mostly. I don't imagine there'd be that much > distortion if it's all tack welded just don't run very long welds just use > 1/3 of a rod then move somewhere else 1/3 rod. Distortion is just caused by > the shrinking/expansion from the heat, then being welded while it's still > out of alignment. Say when you weld those big plates together to make the > full sheets, if you were to start on one end and just weld fully all the way > from one end to the other the seam would start to split apart and by the > time you make it to the other end there'd be a half inch gap but if you tack > weld it all together so the plates join up were they should be joined and > spread the heat out when you weld it up fully you should have no problems, > it's really not that hard just make short welds and move around a lot. > I would weld the plates together fully on both sides before you pull the > boat together. > If I were doing it I'd use about a 1/3 of a rod which would be about 2-3 > inches then move an arms length or so until the next one. That is pretty > thin plate, what size rod are you going to use? > But other than those main welds I think hiring a good fast welder to do it > all would save you a lot of time, depends how much you value your time, you > will be missing out on all the valuable welding experience (but there is > still plenty after the hull is finished) > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23486|23484|2010-06-10 11:54:44|theboilerflue|Re: Trim tab and vane|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > The rudder axis and the trim tab axis are not the same and the vane shaft axis, which I haven't built yet maybe not quite the same axis as the trim tab either. Is there anything to watch for when I build and the vane and shaft assembly? > > Regards, > > Ted > FRICTION Try and reduce any friction you can, especially the trim tab and the the 1/2" pipe that the vane rides on. Worthwhile making some nice UHMW or that chopping board pads for both of these pipes to rest on, One inside the bottom gudgeon on the rudder and the other on as a pad for the vane axis pipe to rest on. The friction between the vane this pipe isn't too important since you lock the two together once it's set but the other too need to swing as freely as possible for the system to work well. And build a big vane, I think people always start with a vane that is too small to work in light winds effectively. I left the mounts on my vane long so that I could pull it in and out till I got it setup just right. You need to play with the proportions between the length of the linkages on the tab and on the vane, adjusting the amount of mechanical advantage they have over each other. I'm still fiddling with mine to get it setup just right. So far it'll steer a course but drifts a little from side to side.| 23487|23461|2010-06-10 12:09:00|Andrew Sullivan|Re: Stitch-welding.|My little 120v MIG Century will weld 3mm (I use flux core) but I'm not sure about the cheap Chinese machines. Consider your duty cycle-most machines will weld 3mm but will cut out on a long weld. I bought Brent's 26 plans and there were drawings for both twin and single keel. His contact info is in the files.Andy --- On Thu, 6/10/10, Dave Ladd wrote: From: Dave Ladd Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stitch-welding. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 8:17 AM   So, I'm thinking of doing the 26 footer, also. Question: Can the 3mm steel be welded with a 120V MIG? I don't mind buying a 120V buzz box, instead, if I have to. But going to 220V is a big step for me as I currently don't have it. And: is the 26' a twin keel? Are there study plans or anything I can look at to get more details before buying plans? Does Brent sell the plans? Thanks in advance! On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 4:21 PM, billxx.smith wrote: > > Many thanks for the tips, Haidan. > > Yes, 3mm is pretty thin plate. But he 26-footer is a small boat, and I > guess anything thicker would be too heavy. Should be more than strong > enough, 'tho. I'll be using 2.5mm rods. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > read in this group, and the construction photo's I've seen > > of Brent's designs, it seems that it's possible to just > > stitch-weld absolutely *everything* together during construction, > > and *not* do any final full-seam welding until the very end. > > doing the welding along the inside of the center seam and chines completely > wouldn't very hard it's pretty much all on the flat and welding it would > insure that it doesn't come apart or move when you lift it to put the keels > in, when I got my boat those were welded on the inside and I had to do the > outside. The outside of that center seam is by the way the worst weld to do > on the whole boat, all upside down with no room to hide from sparks. The > stringers and deck frames are just stich welded but the rest of the deck is > welded on the top side mostly. I don't imagine there'd be that much > distortion if it's all tack welded just don't run very long welds just use > 1/3 of a rod then move somewhere else 1/3 rod. Distortion is just caused by > the shrinking/expansion from the heat, then being welded while it's still > out of alignment. Say when you weld those big plates together to make the > full sheets, if you were to start on one end and just weld fully all the way > from one end to the other the seam would start to split apart and by the > time you make it to the other end there'd be a half inch gap but if you tack > weld it all together so the plates join up were they should be joined and > spread the heat out when you weld it up fully you should have no problems, > it's really not that hard just make short welds and move around a lot. > I would weld the plates together fully on both sides before you pull the > boat together. > If I were doing it I'd use about a 1/3 of a rod which would be about 2-3 > inches then move an arms length or so until the next one. That is pretty > thin plate, what size rod are you going to use? > But other than those main welds I think hiring a good fast welder to do it > all would save you a lot of time, depends how much you value your time, you > will be missing out on all the valuable welding experience (but there is > still plenty after the hull is finished) > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23488|23461|2010-06-10 12:14:47|David Frantz|Re: Stitch-welding.|In short i'd have to say no on the 120 volt "MIG". Especially if you really mean MIG as in gas shielded wire, which wouldn't be suitable for an Outdoor project of this scope. Now if by MIG you really mean Flux Core welding I'd still have to say you are cutting it to close by using a 120 volt welder. There are other issues too that make having only a wire welder available a very questionable choice. Having only 120 volts available will be an issue even welding thin plate with an inverter type welder. Your duty cycles will be low and the maximum arc current you can draw will be low to. You may say that it doesn't matter because the plate is thin and that you have lots of free time but I would argue that having to wait on a welder that is to small will not make you happy. All this being said I have to ask are you sure you don't have at least 220 VAC available even if it requires the addition of an outlet and breaker? Even if you went Flux Core I still think you would be better off with a 220 volt welder. If not 220 VAC from the mains then I'd consider getting a gas or diesel welder/generator or simply a generator and a welder. I just have this horrible vision in my mind that that 120 VAC source of yours is a 15 amp outlet at the end of a very long run of wire. A good generator should be able to supply you with the power required to run a wider array of welders and processes. Also if you consider the newer inverter based welders your generator can be smaller than it might have been in the past. Part of my problems with 120VAC MIGs/Flux Core welders are as follows. First simply finding a good quality unit is difficult. Just because they are available on the market doesn't imply they are worth a damn. The few that are worth a damn are very expensive and should have you considering a 220 volt model because of that. The second issue revolves around opitimizism on the manufactures part when it comes to rated capacity. With a 120 volt wire welder you would be running flat out capacity wise on 3mm plate. So your duty cycles will be crap. Beyound that I generally do a divide by two when looking at material thickness capacity of a wire welder. That may be me of course running a welder a bit hotter than others might. The third thing to consider is getting the gun into places to weld something up that would be easy with a stick. To put it simply a stick welder is very versatile. The fourth issue is the required metal prep needed for good MIG or Flux core welds. This is an issue unto itself but actual MIG welding requires very clean metal for good results. Even Flux Core benefits from clean metal. By clean I mean ground down to a brite finish with no pickeling or other surface contamination. The problem is getting the material to this state can be problem matic on a big project. I put this issue into it's own paragraph because I think it is important to understand, using a wire welder alters the process some and might actually slow you down. Don't misunderstand me here though as at the moment the only welder I personally have is a 220 VAC MIG/ Flux Core welder. Surprisingly I bought that due to the limited ability of my electrical service to support a larger conventional welder. I've used that Welder in both modes and frankly I like the MIG results much better. Flux Core on the other hand would have me wondering if the boat would end up a leaking sieve. In any event I can only say DON'T DO IT. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 10, 2010, at 10:17 AM, Dave Ladd wrote: > So, I'm thinking of doing the 26 footer, also. > > Question: Can the 3mm steel be welded with a 120V MIG? I don't mind > buying a > 120V buzz box, instead, if I have to. But going to 220V is a big > step for me > as I currently don't have it. > > And: is the 26' a twin keel? Are there study plans or anything I can > look at > to get more details before buying plans? Does Brent sell the plans? > > Thanks in advance! > > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 4:21 PM, billxx.smith > wrote: > >> >> Many thanks for the tips, Haidan. >> >> Yes, 3mm is pretty thin plate. But he 26-footer is a small boat, >> and I >> guess anything thicker would be too heavy. Should be more than strong >> enough, 'tho. I'll be using 2.5mm rods. >> >> Cheers ... >> >> Kim. >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" >> wrote: >> >>> read in this group, and the construction photo's I've seen >>> of Brent's designs, it seems that it's possible to just >>> stitch-weld absolutely *everything* together during construction, >>> and *not* do any final full-seam welding until the very end. >> >> doing the welding along the inside of the center seam and chines >> completely >> wouldn't very hard it's pretty much all on the flat and welding it >> would >> insure that it doesn't come apart or move when you lift it to put >> the keels >> in, when I got my boat those were welded on the inside and I had to >> do the >> outside. The outside of that center seam is by the way the worst >> weld to do >> on the whole boat, all upside down with no room to hide from >> sparks. The >> stringers and deck frames are just stich welded but the rest of the >> deck is >> welded on the top side mostly. I don't imagine there'd be that much >> distortion if it's all tack welded just don't run very long welds >> just use >> 1/3 of a rod then move somewhere else 1/3 rod. Distortion is just >> caused by >> the shrinking/expansion from the heat, then being welded while it's >> still >> out of alignment. Say when you weld those big plates together to >> make the >> full sheets, if you were to start on one end and just weld fully >> all the way >> from one end to the other the seam would start to split apart and >> by the >> time you make it to the other end there'd be a half inch gap but if >> you tack >> weld it all together so the plates join up were they should be >> joined and >> spread the heat out when you weld it up fully you should have no >> problems, >> it's really not that hard just make short welds and move around a >> lot. >> I would weld the plates together fully on both sides before you >> pull the >> boat together. >> If I were doing it I'd use about a 1/3 of a rod which would be >> about 2-3 >> inches then move an arms length or so until the next one. That is >> pretty >> thin plate, what size rod are you going to use? >> But other than those main welds I think hiring a good fast welder >> to do it >> all would save you a lot of time, depends how much you value your >> time, you >> will be missing out on all the valuable welding experience (but >> there is >> still plenty after the hull is finished) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23489|23461|2010-06-10 12:27:58|theboilerflue|Re: Stitch-welding.|The lighter duty MIG welder parts wear out too, which is anoying as they're way over priced for what they are and having to go to the store to buy them cn slow you down needlessly. There are lots of used DC buzzboxes on craigslist often enough for under 300 bucks. Recently I made up a splitter pigtail for a 220v welder so I could plug it into two 120v 30a plugs at the government dock in Campbell River. Machine ran with no problems at all, just make sure they're on different circuit breakers. And speaking of welders on craigslist anyone know what this is? http://victoria.en.craigslist.ca/tls/1773576134.html --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > In short i'd have to say no on the 120 volt "MIG". Especially if you > really mean MIG as in gas shielded wire, which wouldn't be suitable > for an Outdoor project of this scope. > > Now if by MIG you really mean Flux Core welding I'd still have to say > you are cutting it to close by using a 120 volt welder. There are > other issues too that make having only a wire welder available a very > questionable choice. > > Having only 120 volts available will be an issue even welding thin > plate with an inverter type welder. Your duty cycles will be low and > the maximum arc current you can draw will be low to. You may say > that it doesn't matter because the plate is thin and that you have > lots of free time but I would argue that having to wait on a welder > that is to small will not make you happy. All this being said I have > to ask are you sure you don't have at least 220 VAC available even if > it requires the addition of an outlet and breaker? Even if you went > Flux Core I still think you would be better off with a 220 volt welder. > > If not 220 VAC from the mains then I'd consider getting a gas or > diesel welder/generator or simply a generator and a welder. I just > have this horrible vision in my mind that that 120 VAC source of yours > is a 15 amp outlet at the end of a very long run of wire. A good > generator should be able to supply you with the power required to run > a wider array of welders and processes. Also if you consider the > newer inverter based welders your generator can be smaller than it > might have been in the past. > > Part of my problems with 120VAC MIGs/Flux Core welders are as > follows. First simply finding a good quality unit is difficult. > Just because they are available on the market doesn't imply they are > worth a damn. The few that are worth a damn are very expensive and > should have you considering a 220 volt model because of that. The > second issue revolves around opitimizism on the manufactures part when > it comes to rated capacity. With a 120 volt wire welder you would be > running flat out capacity wise on 3mm plate. So your duty cycles will > be crap. Beyound that I generally do a divide by two when looking at > material thickness capacity of a wire welder. That may be me of > course running a welder a bit hotter than others might. The third > thing to consider is getting the gun into places to weld something up > that would be easy with a stick. To put it simply a stick welder is > very versatile. > > The fourth issue is the required metal prep needed for good MIG or > Flux core welds. This is an issue unto itself but actual MIG > welding requires very clean metal for good results. Even Flux Core > benefits from clean metal. By clean I mean ground down to a brite > finish with no pickeling or other surface contamination. The problem > is getting the material to this state can be problem matic on a big > project. I put this issue into it's own paragraph because I think it > is important to understand, using a wire welder alters the process > some and might actually slow you down. > > Don't misunderstand me here though as at the moment the only welder I > personally have is a 220 VAC MIG/ Flux Core welder. Surprisingly I > bought that due to the limited ability of my electrical service to > support a larger conventional welder. I've used that Welder in both > modes and frankly I like the MIG results much better. Flux Core on > the other hand would have me wondering if the boat would end up a > leaking sieve. > > In any event I can only say DON'T DO IT. > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jun 10, 2010, at 10:17 AM, Dave Ladd wrote: > > > So, I'm thinking of doing the 26 footer, also. > > > > Question: Can the 3mm steel be welded with a 120V MIG? I don't mind > > buying a > > 120V buzz box, instead, if I have to. But going to 220V is a big > > step for me > > as I currently don't have it. > > > > And: is the 26' a twin keel? Are there study plans or anything I can > > look at > > to get more details before buying plans? Does Brent sell the plans? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 4:21 PM, billxx.smith > > wrote: > > > >> > >> Many thanks for the tips, Haidan. > >> > >> Yes, 3mm is pretty thin plate. But he 26-footer is a small boat, > >> and I > >> guess anything thicker would be too heavy. Should be more than strong > >> enough, 'tho. I'll be using 2.5mm rods. > >> > >> Cheers ... > >> > >> Kim. > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > >> wrote: > >> > >>> read in this group, and the construction photo's I've seen > >>> of Brent's designs, it seems that it's possible to just > >>> stitch-weld absolutely *everything* together during construction, > >>> and *not* do any final full-seam welding until the very end. > >> > >> doing the welding along the inside of the center seam and chines > >> completely > >> wouldn't very hard it's pretty much all on the flat and welding it > >> would > >> insure that it doesn't come apart or move when you lift it to put > >> the keels > >> in, when I got my boat those were welded on the inside and I had to > >> do the > >> outside. The outside of that center seam is by the way the worst > >> weld to do > >> on the whole boat, all upside down with no room to hide from > >> sparks. The > >> stringers and deck frames are just stich welded but the rest of the > >> deck is > >> welded on the top side mostly. I don't imagine there'd be that much > >> distortion if it's all tack welded just don't run very long welds > >> just use > >> 1/3 of a rod then move somewhere else 1/3 rod. Distortion is just > >> caused by > >> the shrinking/expansion from the heat, then being welded while it's > >> still > >> out of alignment. Say when you weld those big plates together to > >> make the > >> full sheets, if you were to start on one end and just weld fully > >> all the way > >> from one end to the other the seam would start to split apart and > >> by the > >> time you make it to the other end there'd be a half inch gap but if > >> you tack > >> weld it all together so the plates join up were they should be > >> joined and > >> spread the heat out when you weld it up fully you should have no > >> problems, > >> it's really not that hard just make short welds and move around a > >> lot. > >> I would weld the plates together fully on both sides before you > >> pull the > >> boat together. > >> If I were doing it I'd use about a 1/3 of a rod which would be > >> about 2-3 > >> inches then move an arms length or so until the next one. That is > >> pretty > >> thin plate, what size rod are you going to use? > >> But other than those main welds I think hiring a good fast welder > >> to do it > >> all would save you a lot of time, depends how much you value your > >> time, you > >> will be missing out on all the valuable welding experience (but > >> there is > >> still plenty after the hull is finished) > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 23490|23461|2010-06-10 13:30:14|Mark Hamill|Re: Stitch-welding.|Check this out. ARC Welders Recalled by Wel-Dex 27 Oct 1976 ... Persons in possession of the product, or who have destroyed it for safety reasons, may contact Wel-Dex Welder Mfg. Co., P.O. Box 10839, ... www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml76/76074.html - Cached - Similar ----- Original Message ----- From: theboilerflue To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stitch-welding. The lighter duty MIG welder parts wear out too, which is anoying as they're way over priced for what they are and having to go to the store to buy them cn slow you down needlessly. There are lots of used DC buzzboxes on craigslist often enough for under 300 bucks. Recently I made up a splitter pigtail for a 220v welder so I could plug it into two 120v 30a plugs at the government dock in Campbell River. Machine ran with no problems at all, just make sure they're on different circuit breakers. And speaking of welders on craigslist anyone know what this is? http://victoria.en.craigslist.ca/tls/1773576134.html --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > In short i'd have to say no on the 120 volt "MIG". Especially if you > really mean MIG as in gas shielded wire, which wouldn't be suitable > for an Outdoor project of this scope. > > Now if by MIG you really mean Flux Core welding I'd still have to say > you are cutting it to close by using a 120 volt welder. There are > other issues too that make having only a wire welder available a very > questionable choice. > > Having only 120 volts available will be an issue even welding thin > plate with an inverter type welder. Your duty cycles will be low and > the maximum arc current you can draw will be low to. You may say > that it doesn't matter because the plate is thin and that you have > lots of free time but I would argue that having to wait on a welder > that is to small will not make you happy. All this being said I have > to ask are you sure you don't have at least 220 VAC available even if > it requires the addition of an outlet and breaker? Even if you went > Flux Core I still think you would be better off with a 220 volt welder. > > If not 220 VAC from the mains then I'd consider getting a gas or > diesel welder/generator or simply a generator and a welder. I just > have this horrible vision in my mind that that 120 VAC source of yours > is a 15 amp outlet at the end of a very long run of wire. A good > generator should be able to supply you with the power required to run > a wider array of welders and processes. Also if you consider the > newer inverter based welders your generator can be smaller than it > might have been in the past. > > Part of my problems with 120VAC MIGs/Flux Core welders are as > follows. First simply finding a good quality unit is difficult. > Just because they are available on the market doesn't imply they are > worth a damn. The few that are worth a damn are very expensive and > should have you considering a 220 volt model because of that. The > second issue revolves around opitimizism on the manufactures part when > it comes to rated capacity. With a 120 volt wire welder you would be > running flat out capacity wise on 3mm plate. So your duty cycles will > be crap. Beyound that I generally do a divide by two when looking at > material thickness capacity of a wire welder. That may be me of > course running a welder a bit hotter than others might. The third > thing to consider is getting the gun into places to weld something up > that would be easy with a stick. To put it simply a stick welder is > very versatile. > > The fourth issue is the required metal prep needed for good MIG or > Flux core welds. This is an issue unto itself but actual MIG > welding requires very clean metal for good results. Even Flux Core > benefits from clean metal. By clean I mean ground down to a brite > finish with no pickeling or other surface contamination. The problem > is getting the material to this state can be problem matic on a big > project. I put this issue into it's own paragraph because I think it > is important to understand, using a wire welder alters the process > some and might actually slow you down. > > Don't misunderstand me here though as at the moment the only welder I > personally have is a 220 VAC MIG/ Flux Core welder. Surprisingly I > bought that due to the limited ability of my electrical service to > support a larger conventional welder. I've used that Welder in both > modes and frankly I like the MIG results much better. Flux Core on > the other hand would have me wondering if the boat would end up a > leaking sieve. > > In any event I can only say DON'T DO IT. > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jun 10, 2010, at 10:17 AM, Dave Ladd wrote: > > > So, I'm thinking of doing the 26 footer, also. > > > > Question: Can the 3mm steel be welded with a 120V MIG? I don't mind > > buying a > > 120V buzz box, instead, if I have to. But going to 220V is a big > > step for me > > as I currently don't have it. > > > > And: is the 26' a twin keel? Are there study plans or anything I can > > look at > > to get more details before buying plans? Does Brent sell the plans? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 4:21 PM, billxx.smith > > wrote: > > > >> > >> Many thanks for the tips, Haidan. > >> > >> Yes, 3mm is pretty thin plate. But he 26-footer is a small boat, > >> and I > >> guess anything thicker would be too heavy. Should be more than strong > >> enough, 'tho. I'll be using 2.5mm rods. > >> > >> Cheers ... > >> > >> Kim. > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > >> wrote: > >> > >>> read in this group, and the construction photo's I've seen > >>> of Brent's designs, it seems that it's possible to just > >>> stitch-weld absolutely *everything* together during construction, > >>> and *not* do any final full-seam welding until the very end. > >> > >> doing the welding along the inside of the center seam and chines > >> completely > >> wouldn't very hard it's pretty much all on the flat and welding it > >> would > >> insure that it doesn't come apart or move when you lift it to put > >> the keels > >> in, when I got my boat those were welded on the inside and I had to > >> do the > >> outside. The outside of that center seam is by the way the worst > >> weld to do > >> on the whole boat, all upside down with no room to hide from > >> sparks. The > >> stringers and deck frames are just stich welded but the rest of the > >> deck is > >> welded on the top side mostly. I don't imagine there'd be that much > >> distortion if it's all tack welded just don't run very long welds > >> just use > >> 1/3 of a rod then move somewhere else 1/3 rod. Distortion is just > >> caused by > >> the shrinking/expansion from the heat, then being welded while it's > >> still > >> out of alignment. Say when you weld those big plates together to > >> make the > >> full sheets, if you were to start on one end and just weld fully > >> all the way > >> from one end to the other the seam would start to split apart and > >> by the > >> time you make it to the other end there'd be a half inch gap but if > >> you tack > >> weld it all together so the plates join up were they should be > >> joined and > >> spread the heat out when you weld it up fully you should have no > >> problems, > >> it's really not that hard just make short welds and move around a > >> lot. > >> I would weld the plates together fully on both sides before you > >> pull the > >> boat together. > >> If I were doing it I'd use about a 1/3 of a rod which would be > >> about 2-3 > >> inches then move an arms length or so until the next one. That is > >> pretty > >> thin plate, what size rod are you going to use? > >> But other than those main welds I think hiring a good fast welder > >> to do it > >> all would save you a lot of time, depends how much you value your > >> time, you > >> will be missing out on all the valuable welding experience (but > >> there is > >> still plenty after the hull is finished) > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23491|23491|2010-06-10 16:12:53|ANDREW AIREY|Nibbling steel plate|If you're talking 3mm plate wouldn't a jigsaw with a metal cutting blade do the job cheers Andy Airey| 23492|23461|2010-06-10 17:01:24|kimdxx|Re: Stitch-welding.|Hi Dave ... My plans for the 26 footer have details for both twin-keels and single-keel versions. There are no study-plans as such available that I'm aware of; but I think there is a sail-plan drawing in the files section of this group. There is the equivalent of a study-plan in Brent's book. Yes, Brent sells the plans (and his book). His contact details are also somewhere in the files section. To weld up my 26 footer I bought a 240 volt 160 amp inverter stick welder. For me, it seems easier/cleaner to stick-weld with a DC inverter-type. My building site doesn't have mains power so I've also got a 240 volt generator. I decided not to go down the MIG path because my boat is out in the open (in the wind), and I figured that an amateur welder like myself would make fewer welding mistakes, and produce sounder welds, with a stick rather than a MIG. Plus, I'm more familiar with stick welding. I think the 26 footer will be a good little boat! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Dave Ladd wrote: > > So, I'm thinking of doing the 26 footer, also. > > Question: Can the 3mm steel be welded with a 120V MIG? I don't mind buying a > 120V buzz box, instead, if I have to. But going to 220V is a big step for me > as I currently don't have it. > > And: is the 26' a twin keel? Are there study plans or anything I can look at > to get more details before buying plans? Does Brent sell the plans? > > Thanks in advance! | 23493|23493|2010-06-10 17:30:57|Mark Hamill|Beaching Legs|Beaching legs have been mentioned in the past and I just found these plans for them if anyone is interested. http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail3.php#legs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23494|23494|2010-06-10 18:09:07|theboilerflue|Alternator Welder|Hi Brent, Was going to pick an alternator up from the scrapies, any particular type, model ect. about 120 amps? What was that one that we picked up last year, it from a dodge truck?| 23495|23493|2010-06-10 18:15:24|Paul Wilson|Re: Beaching Legs|Here is another good article on beaching legs..... http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance-articles/20077-giving-your-boat-some-legs.html Cheers, Paul Mark Hamill wrote: > > > Beaching legs have been mentioned in the past and I just found these > plans for them if anyone is interested. > http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail3.php#legs > > [ > > > | 23496|23494|2010-06-10 19:22:25|brentswain38|Re: Alternator Welder|We picked up a square large body dodge alternator. It works well for me, altho, if you can find one with 120 amps or more , go for it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Hi Brent, Was going to pick an alternator up from the scrapies, any particular type, model ect. about 120 amps? > What was that one that we picked up last year, it from a dodge truck? > | 23497|23484|2010-06-10 19:23:47|brentswain38|Re: Trim tab and vane|I find that putting the vane shaft axis 1 1/2 inches ahead of the trim tab axis works well for me. The trim tab axis is about 8 inches behind the rudder axis. The bolt concting the vane to the trimtab loop is about an inch behind the rudder axis. This is what gives you negative feedback, and eliminates oversteering. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > The rudder axis and the trim rab axis are not the same and the vane shaft axis, which I haven't built yet maybe not quite the same axis as the trim tab either. Is there anything to watch for when I build and the vane and shaft assembly? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 23498|23484|2010-06-10 19:28:47|brentswain38|Re: Trim tab and vane|Windvane bearings should have about 1/16th inch of clearance, minimum. You only need top and bottom bushings on the trimtab, the centre one should have at least 1/8th inch clearance, all around. It's only there to stop the trimtab shaft from being bent.Bearings should rattle slightly, if you want good light air performance.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > The rudder axis and the trim tab axis are not the same and the vane shaft axis, which I haven't built yet maybe not quite the same axis as the trim tab either. Is there anything to watch for when I build and the vane and shaft assembly? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > FRICTION > Try and reduce any friction you can, especially the trim tab and the the 1/2" pipe that the vane rides on. Worthwhile making some nice UHMW or that chopping board pads for both of these pipes to rest on, One inside the bottom gudgeon on the rudder and the other on as a pad for the vane axis pipe to rest on. The friction between the vane this pipe isn't too important since you lock the two together once it's set but the other too need to swing as freely as possible for the system to work well. And build a big vane, I think people always start with a vane that is too small to work in light winds effectively. > > I left the mounts on my vane long so that I could pull it in and out till I got it setup just right. You need to play with the proportions between the length of the linkages on the tab and on the vane, adjusting the amount of mechanical advantage they have over each other. I'm still fiddling with mine to get it setup just right. So far it'll steer a course but drifts a little from side to side. > | 23499|23461|2010-06-10 19:29:06|brentswain38|Re: Stitch-welding.|Mig is as slow as a government bureaucrat, and that's slow. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > In short i'd have to say no on the 120 volt "MIG". Especially if you > really mean MIG as in gas shielded wire, which wouldn't be suitable > for an Outdoor project of this scope. > > Now if by MIG you really mean Flux Core welding I'd still have to say > you are cutting it to close by using a 120 volt welder. There are > other issues too that make having only a wire welder available a very > questionable choice. > > Having only 120 volts available will be an issue even welding thin > plate with an inverter type welder. Your duty cycles will be low and > the maximum arc current you can draw will be low to. You may say > that it doesn't matter because the plate is thin and that you have > lots of free time but I would argue that having to wait on a welder > that is to small will not make you happy. All this being said I have > to ask are you sure you don't have at least 220 VAC available even if > it requires the addition of an outlet and breaker? Even if you went > Flux Core I still think you would be better off with a 220 volt welder. > > If not 220 VAC from the mains then I'd consider getting a gas or > diesel welder/generator or simply a generator and a welder. I just > have this horrible vision in my mind that that 120 VAC source of yours > is a 15 amp outlet at the end of a very long run of wire. A good > generator should be able to supply you with the power required to run > a wider array of welders and processes. Also if you consider the > newer inverter based welders your generator can be smaller than it > might have been in the past. > > Part of my problems with 120VAC MIGs/Flux Core welders are as > follows. First simply finding a good quality unit is difficult. > Just because they are available on the market doesn't imply they are > worth a damn. The few that are worth a damn are very expensive and > should have you considering a 220 volt model because of that. The > second issue revolves around opitimizism on the manufactures part when > it comes to rated capacity. With a 120 volt wire welder you would be > running flat out capacity wise on 3mm plate. So your duty cycles will > be crap. Beyound that I generally do a divide by two when looking at > material thickness capacity of a wire welder. That may be me of > course running a welder a bit hotter than others might. The third > thing to consider is getting the gun into places to weld something up > that would be easy with a stick. To put it simply a stick welder is > very versatile. > > The fourth issue is the required metal prep needed for good MIG or > Flux core welds. This is an issue unto itself but actual MIG > welding requires very clean metal for good results. Even Flux Core > benefits from clean metal. By clean I mean ground down to a brite > finish with no pickeling or other surface contamination. The problem > is getting the material to this state can be problem matic on a big > project. I put this issue into it's own paragraph because I think it > is important to understand, using a wire welder alters the process > some and might actually slow you down. > > Don't misunderstand me here though as at the moment the only welder I > personally have is a 220 VAC MIG/ Flux Core welder. Surprisingly I > bought that due to the limited ability of my electrical service to > support a larger conventional welder. I've used that Welder in both > modes and frankly I like the MIG results much better. Flux Core on > the other hand would have me wondering if the boat would end up a > leaking sieve. > > In any event I can only say DON'T DO IT. > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jun 10, 2010, at 10:17 AM, Dave Ladd wrote: > > > So, I'm thinking of doing the 26 footer, also. > > > > Question: Can the 3mm steel be welded with a 120V MIG? I don't mind > > buying a > > 120V buzz box, instead, if I have to. But going to 220V is a big > > step for me > > as I currently don't have it. > > > > And: is the 26' a twin keel? Are there study plans or anything I can > > look at > > to get more details before buying plans? Does Brent sell the plans? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 4:21 PM, billxx.smith > > wrote: > > > >> > >> Many thanks for the tips, Haidan. > >> > >> Yes, 3mm is pretty thin plate. But he 26-footer is a small boat, > >> and I > >> guess anything thicker would be too heavy. Should be more than strong > >> enough, 'tho. I'll be using 2.5mm rods. > >> > >> Cheers ... > >> > >> Kim. > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > >> wrote: > >> > >>> read in this group, and the construction photo's I've seen > >>> of Brent's designs, it seems that it's possible to just > >>> stitch-weld absolutely *everything* together during construction, > >>> and *not* do any final full-seam welding until the very end. > >> > >> doing the welding along the inside of the center seam and chines > >> completely > >> wouldn't very hard it's pretty much all on the flat and welding it > >> would > >> insure that it doesn't come apart or move when you lift it to put > >> the keels > >> in, when I got my boat those were welded on the inside and I had to > >> do the > >> outside. The outside of that center seam is by the way the worst > >> weld to do > >> on the whole boat, all upside down with no room to hide from > >> sparks. The > >> stringers and deck frames are just stich welded but the rest of the > >> deck is > >> welded on the top side mostly. I don't imagine there'd be that much > >> distortion if it's all tack welded just don't run very long welds > >> just use > >> 1/3 of a rod then move somewhere else 1/3 rod. Distortion is just > >> caused by > >> the shrinking/expansion from the heat, then being welded while it's > >> still > >> out of alignment. Say when you weld those big plates together to > >> make the > >> full sheets, if you were to start on one end and just weld fully > >> all the way > >> from one end to the other the seam would start to split apart and > >> by the > >> time you make it to the other end there'd be a half inch gap but if > >> you tack > >> weld it all together so the plates join up were they should be > >> joined and > >> spread the heat out when you weld it up fully you should have no > >> problems, > >> it's really not that hard just make short welds and move around a > >> lot. > >> I would weld the plates together fully on both sides before you > >> pull the > >> boat together. > >> If I were doing it I'd use about a 1/3 of a rod which would be > >> about 2-3 > >> inches then move an arms length or so until the next one. That is > >> pretty > >> thin plate, what size rod are you going to use? > >> But other than those main welds I think hiring a good fast welder > >> to do it > >> all would save you a lot of time, depends how much you value your > >> time, you > >> will be missing out on all the valuable welding experience (but > >> there is > >> still plenty after the hull is finished) > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 23500|23484|2010-06-11 15:35:23|edward|Re: Trim tab and vane|Thanks Brent & Boilerflue, I meant to post also that the rudder snd trim tab and possibly the vane are not on parallel axes. Does it matter or is there something that needs to be watched because of that? Regards, Ted| 23501|23501|2010-06-11 22:42:48|Ian Campbell|Re: Trim tab and vane available....|I have in Royston BC a stainless steel aux. rudder with integrated trim tab with the feedback gear all made of professionbally fusion welded stainless steel It's surplus as I purchased a WindPilot from Germany. $400. would work for me. 250 3388892 ---- Original Message ----- From: theboilerflue To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 8:53 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trim tab and vane --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > The rudder axis and the trim tab axis are not the same and the vane shaft axis, which I haven't built yet maybe not quite the same axis as the trim tab either. Is there anything to watch for when I build and the vane and shaft assembly? > > Regards, > > Ted > FRICTION Try and reduce any friction you can, especially the trim tab and the the 1/2" pipe that the vane rides on. Worthwhile making some nice UHMW or that chopping board pads for both of these pipes to rest on, One inside the bottom gudgeon on the rudder and the other on as a pad for the vane axis pipe to rest on. The friction between the vane this pipe isn't too important since you lock the two together once it's set but the other too need to swing as freely as possible for the system to work well. And build a big vane, I think people always start with a vane that is too small to work in light winds effectively. I left the mounts on my vane long so that I could pull it in and out till I got it setup just right. You need to play with the proportions between the length of the linkages on the tab and on the vane, adjusting the amount of mechanical advantage they have over each other. I'm still fiddling with mine to get it setup just right. So far it'll steer a course but drifts a little from side to side. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23502|23484|2010-06-12 20:16:52|brentswain38|Re: Trim tab and vane|No problem .Neither is mine. Just enough slack in it to stop anything from binding in hard over position is all you need. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > Thanks Brent & Boilerflue, > > I meant to post also that the rudder snd trim tab and possibly the vane are not on parallel axes. Does it matter or is there something that needs to be watched because of that? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 23503|23484|2010-06-13 04:46:04|edward|Re: Trim tab and vane|Thanks Brent. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > No problem .Neither is mine. Just enough slack in it to stop anything from binding in hard over position is all you need. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent & Boilerflue, > > > > I meant to post also that the rudder snd trim tab and possibly the vane are not on parallel axes. Does it matter or is there something that needs to be watched because of that? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > | 23504|23504|2010-06-15 22:11:52|mochilero2|31 footer steel costs|I got some quotes recently for the steel included in Brent's list for the basic shell for a 31 footer. The best quote was from a Texas firm which quoted me US$10,800, all shot-blasted and pre-primed, including two 8 x 32 foot plates. $10.8K seems a little high to me. I was wondering how this compares to steel prices for a 31 footer in other locations in the US and Canada?| 23505|23504|2010-06-16 11:11:58|Mark|Re: 31 footer steel costs|Order stock size plates ie 8x40 or 8x20. I'd bet your paying for 2 40 foot sheets and them to cut it. That's what the local yard here does, if not stock size you pay extra and they resale what you already paid for. I'd not blast or prime, your going to do it before you paint the boat anyway. The areas you cut and weld just prime with a brush till your ready to blast and paint, mill scale will give some protection.    If in north texas try Amsco Steel.  People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. George Orwell --- On Tue, 6/15/10, mochilero2 wrote: From: mochilero2 Subject: [origamiboats] 31 footer steel costs To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 15, 2010, 9:10 PM   I got some quotes recently for the steel included in Brent's list for the basic shell for a 31 footer. The best quote was from a Texas firm which quoted me US$10,800, all shot-blasted and pre-primed, including two 8 x 32 foot plates. $10.8K seems a little high to me. I was wondering how this compares to steel prices for a 31 footer in other locations in the US and Canada? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23506|23504|2010-06-16 13:38:31|theboilerflue|Re: 31 footer steel costs|I believe that when Alex got the steel for my 36' boat it came to just under 10k wheel abraded and shop primed. But that was also five years ago. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mochilero2" wrote: > > I got some quotes recently for the steel included in Brent's list for the basic shell for a 31 footer. The best quote was from a Texas firm which quoted me US$10,800, all shot-blasted and pre-primed, including two 8 x 32 foot plates. > > $10.8K seems a little high to me. I was wondering how this compares to steel prices for a 31 footer in other locations in the US and Canada? > | 23507|23504|2010-06-16 18:37:55|brentswain38|Re: 31 footer steel costs|A guy in Alberta just told me he got a quote for all the steel for a 40 footer for $7500. I don't know if it was wheelabraded and primed, but not getting your plate wheelabraded and primed would be a big mistake. Mine was, and I've never had to sandblast in the 26 years since the steel arrived. Sandblasting is one dirty job you want to avoid at all costs. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Mark wrote: > > Order stock size plates ie 8x40 or 8x20. I'd bet your paying for 2 40 foot sheets and them to cut it. That's what the local yard here does, if not stock size you pay extra and they resale what you already paid for. I'd not blast or prime, your going to do it before you paint the boat anyway. The areas you cut and weld just prime with a brush till your ready to blast and paint, mill scale will give some protection. >  > If in north texas try Amsco Steel. > > > People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. > George Orwell > > --- On Tue, 6/15/10, mochilero2 wrote: > > > From: mochilero2 > Subject: [origamiboats] 31 footer steel costs > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, June 15, 2010, 9:10 PM > > >  > > > > I got some quotes recently for the steel included in Brent's list for the basic shell for a 31 footer. The best quote was from a Texas firm which quoted me US$10,800, all shot-blasted and pre-primed, including two 8 x 32 foot plates. > > $10.8K seems a little high to me. I was wondering how this compares to steel prices for a 31 footer in other locations in the US and Canada? > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23508|23504|2010-06-17 05:18:17|chrstjrn|Re: 31 footer steel costs|A friend of mine is in the steel-reselling business (by the shipload). There was a lull in steel prices over the last 4-5 years. They are now at a high point again. Good for him/bad for us.| 23509|23509|2010-06-17 08:01:04|edward|Self steeering indexing disc notches|Hi Brent and all, Do you have any advice, neat ideas etc on making the indexing disc on the self steeering and cutting the disc notches. What would be the minimum size you would recommend? Regards, Ted| 23510|23509|2010-06-17 18:10:10|brentswain38|Re: Self steeering indexing disc notches|I use a 1/8th inch cutting disk with 1/8th inch of metal between them. 6 inch or larger diameter gives you all the choices you'll need. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > Hi Brent and all, > > Do you have any advice, neat ideas etc on making the indexing disc on the self steeering and cutting the disc notches. What would be the minimum size you would recommend? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 23511|23504|2010-06-17 18:11:45|brentswain38|Re: 31 footer steel costs|That explains why , after years of nothing , stainless has begun to reappear in scrapyards again. There may be an even bigger slump on the way. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "chrstjrn" <66kame1@...> wrote: > > A friend of mine is in the steel-reselling business (by the shipload). There was a lull in steel prices over the last 4-5 years. They are now at a high point again. Good for him/bad for us. > | 23512|23504|2010-06-18 14:11:40|mochilero2|Re: 31 footer steel costs|Thanks all for the replies. I'm also interested in getting quotes from firms in the traditional origami boat building area of southern BC, to compare the economics of building in Canada vs US. Are there steel suppliers in this area you would recommend contacting? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > That explains why , after years of nothing , stainless has begun to reappear in scrapyards again. > There may be an even bigger slump on the way. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "chrstjrn" <66kame1@> wrote: > > > > A friend of mine is in the steel-reselling business (by the shipload). There was a lull in steel prices over the last 4-5 years. They are now at a high point again. Good for him/bad for us. > > > | 23513|23504|2010-06-18 14:26:08|brentswain38|Re: 31 footer steel costs|AJ Forsyth in Vancouver and Russel metals are the main suppliers here. Wilkinson steel may still be around. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mochilero2" wrote: > > Thanks all for the replies. I'm also interested in getting quotes from firms in the traditional origami boat building area of southern BC, to compare the economics of building in Canada vs US. Are there steel suppliers in this area you would recommend contacting? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > That explains why , after years of nothing , stainless has begun to reappear in scrapyards again. > > There may be an even bigger slump on the way. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "chrstjrn" <66kame1@> wrote: > > > > > > A friend of mine is in the steel-reselling business (by the shipload). There was a lull in steel prices over the last 4-5 years. They are now at a high point again. Good for him/bad for us. > > > > > > | 23514|23509|2010-06-18 14:47:33|theboilerflue|Re: Self steeering indexing disc notches|I found putting two zip disks in the grinder together made just the right thickness of notch for the stopper I was using. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward" wrote: > > Hi Brent and all, > > Do you have any advice, neat ideas etc on making the indexing disc on the self steeering and cutting the disc notches. What would be the minimum size you would recommend? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 23515|23334|2010-06-18 15:52:24|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|I was looking at different types of keels and was wondering what is the difference (applying to origamiboats). Does it really make the difference? Most tween keel boats have low aspect ratio (<1) keels. So, I ran NASA foil simulator for 3 keel profiles with aspect ratio=1 (airfoil, ellipse and plate - all with Th/crd=12%). Fresh water at 5mph. Results: All profiles stall at about 10deg, losing the lift (reversing it) at about 15 deg. The best lift - ellipse shape, smaller drag - plate. Plate has 10% less lift, but 5% less drag. Question: Is it worth of troubles to play with keel shapes instead of using just plate for tween keel boat???| 23516|23334|2010-06-18 16:06:28|j fisher|Re: 40 footer modeling|I would think the Re number is high enough that a full foil would offer significantly better performance than a flat plate keel. From my analysis the flat plates really are only good at small Re, ie less than 80,000. I would think that a swain would be in the 500,000 to 1,000,000 range. John On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 1:47 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > I was looking at different types of keels and was wondering what is the > difference (applying to origamiboats). Does it really make the difference? > Most tween keel boats have low aspect ratio (<1) keels. > > So, I ran NASA foil simulator for 3 keel profiles with aspect ratio=1 > (airfoil, ellipse and plate - all with Th/crd=12%). Fresh water at 5mph. > > Results: All profiles stall at about 10deg, losing the lift (reversing it) > at about 15 deg. The best lift - ellipse shape, smaller drag - plate. > > Plate has 10% less lift, but 5% less drag. > > Question: Is it worth of troubles to play with keel shapes instead of using > just plate for tween keel boat??? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23517|23509|2010-06-18 18:02:31|Paul Wilson|Re: Self steeering indexing disc notches|If you use two stops, slightly offset from one another, you can double the resolution by using either one or the other. It works great for me. Paul theboilerflue wrote: > > I found putting two zip disks in the grinder together made just the > right thickness of notch for the stopper I was using. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "edward" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent and all, > > > > Do you have any advice, neat ideas etc on making the indexing disc > on the self steeering and cutting the disc notches. What would be the > minimum size you would recommend? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > | 23518|23334|2010-06-18 18:32:16|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|That what I was expecting too. Surprisingly, there is no big difference in the lift at speed range 5-15 mph. Even using Re ~ 3-10M... Same difference about 10%. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, j fisher wrote: > > I would think the Re number is high enough that a full foil would offer > significantly better performance than a flat plate keel. From my analysis > the flat plates really are only good at small Re, ie less than 80,000. I > would think that a swain would be in the 500,000 to 1,000,000 range. > > John | 23519|23504|2010-06-18 19:21:52|Carl Anderson|Re: 31 footer steel costs|About your only option is AJ Foresythe. Be sure to get it wheel abraded & primed so you don't have to sandblast the interior!!! Carl sv-mom.com Anchored in Mark Bay, BC On 6/18/2010 11:08 AM, mochilero2 wrote: > > > Thanks all for the replies. I'm also interested in getting quotes from > firms in the traditional origami boat building area of southern BC, to > compare the economics of building in Canada vs US. Are there steel > suppliers in this area you would recommend contacting? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > That explains why , after years of nothing , stainless has begun to > reappear in scrapyards again. > > There may be an even bigger slump on the way. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "chrstjrn" <66kame1@> wrote: > > > > > > A friend of mine is in the steel-reselling business (by the > shipload). There was a lull in steel prices over the last 4-5 years. > They are now at a high point again. Good for him/bad for us. > > > > > > > | 23520|23520|2010-06-19 06:27:33|kimdxx|The transverse midship seam, and longitudinal stringers.|Greetings everyone ... Years ago (way back in 2002) Brent said in message #967 (in response to someone whose transverse seam overlapped as he pulled one side of his hull together): "I prefer to have the transverse seam overlap, pull it together until the overlap is parallel, then tack the centreline end of the overlap. Then I cut off the overlap, grind a bevel on one side, match both sides up tack them together, then cut the overlap tack and match it up. Before fully welding the transverse seam, it's a good idea to tack large straight edges of scrap plate across the seam every foot or so ,to keep it straight while doing the full weld as well as welding on the short pieces of angle to make the stringers continuous. After the seam has been fully welded, these pieces can be broken off and the welds under them finished." Unfortunately I can't picture this scene. Brent says "pull it together until the overlap is parallel"; but parallel to what? I think Brent is also emphasizing this again in drawing 7 on page 15 of his book. But I don't understand what the transverse seam is supposed to be parallel to. My mind is no doubt just suffering from a blind spot here, and I'm sure I'm missing something that's blindingly obvious; but I would be grateful if anyone could expand on this "parallel" thing, as it seems to be important. Also, in the above message Brent refers to "welding on the short pieces of angle to make the stringers continuous". I've seen construction photo's of Brents boats where the (below chine) longitudinal stringers appear to have been welded on while the hull plate for a side is still flat on the ground; but cut short around the area of the origami cutout for the transverse seam in the plate. (I imagine there would be a lot of hoping that those stringer ends would line up after the seams were pulled together!) I've also seen photo's of boats that did not appear to have any below-chine stringers in place when the transverse midship seam was welded up, so I assume they were welded in later. What's the preferred method? Why not weld on the below-chine stringers after the transverse seam had been joined and before the 2 halves of the hull are pulled together, as would not that then avoid the need to weld on the short pieces of angle to make the stringers continuous (and it would still be mostly downhand welding)? Cheers ... Kim. ____________________________________| 23521|23520|2010-06-19 14:43:27|brentswain38|Re: The transverse midship seam, and longitudinal stringers.|Parallel to the line on your pattern layout. I prefer to leave the plate a little long, but parallel to that line, then cut it off after tacking the centreline part. We have done stringers both ways. You can put them in after pulling the halves together, its a bit of a struggle to keep the angle upright . Vise grips clamped on the upper leg of the angle make it easier to keep it upright when getting started. You definitely don't want to lay the angle flat on the plate, as that leaves a space below it where you can't reach with a paintbrush, and it also drastically reduces the strength given by the angle. Putting them on before pulling the half together is definitely easier. If you start them the same distance from the chine on both sides, they will match up after the hull side is pulled together, then you span the seam with a short piece. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kimdxx" wrote: > > > Greetings everyone ... > > Years ago (way back in 2002) Brent said in message #967 (in response to someone whose transverse seam overlapped as he pulled one side of his hull together): > > "I prefer to have the transverse seam overlap, pull it together until the overlap is parallel, then tack the centreline end of the overlap. Then I cut off the overlap, grind a bevel on one side, match both sides up tack them together, then cut the overlap tack and match it up. Before fully welding the transverse seam, it's a good idea to tack large straight edges of scrap plate across the seam every foot or so ,to keep it straight while doing the full weld as well as welding on the short pieces of angle to make the stringers continuous. After the seam has been fully welded, these pieces can be broken off and the welds under them finished." > > Unfortunately I can't picture this scene. Brent says "pull it together until the overlap is parallel"; but parallel to what? > > I think Brent is also emphasizing this again in drawing 7 on page 15 of his book. But I don't understand what the transverse seam is supposed to be parallel to. My mind is no doubt just suffering from a blind spot here, and I'm sure I'm missing something that's blindingly obvious; but I would be grateful if anyone could expand on this "parallel" thing, as it seems to be important. > > Also, in the above message Brent refers to "welding on the short pieces of angle to make the stringers continuous". I've seen construction photo's of Brents boats where the (below chine) longitudinal stringers appear to have been welded on while the hull plate for a side is still flat on the ground; but cut short around the area of the origami cutout for the transverse seam in the plate. (I imagine there would be a lot of hoping that those stringer ends would line up after the seams were pulled together!) I've also seen photo's of boats that did not appear to have any below-chine stringers in place when the transverse midship seam was welded up, so I assume they were welded in later. What's the preferred method? Why not weld on the below-chine stringers after the transverse seam had been joined and before the 2 halves of the hull are pulled together, as would not that then avoid the need to weld on the short pieces of angle to make the stringers continuous (and it would still be mostly downhand welding)? > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > ____________________________________ > | 23522|23334|2010-06-19 14:53:07|brentswain38|Re: 40 footer modeling|Tank test can be misleading ,as they assume a boat is traveling in a straight line. At the ten degrees of leeway, common going to windward in a rough sea, and the amount of slewing around in a big quartering sea, a boat in a rough sea travels in anything but a straight line. Flat keels will stall repeatedly, causing a huge increase in drag, in any rough sea. Another misconception from tank tests and calculations is that in a tank, a hull is being propelled by a single point . Being propelled by sails is a whole different situation. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was looking at different types of keels and was wondering what is the difference (applying to origamiboats). Does it really make the difference? Most tween keel boats have low aspect ratio (<1) keels. > > So, I ran NASA foil simulator for 3 keel profiles with aspect ratio=1 (airfoil, ellipse and plate - all with Th/crd=12%). Fresh water at 5mph. > > Results: All profiles stall at about 10deg, losing the lift (reversing it) at about 15 deg. The best lift - ellipse shape, smaller drag - plate. > > Plate has 10% less lift, but 5% less drag. > > Question: Is it worth of troubles to play with keel shapes instead of using just plate for tween keel boat??? > | 23523|23504|2010-06-19 16:11:52|theboilerflue|Re: 31 footer steel costs|Looks like you two made it out, congrats, watch out for those rocks near you, that harbor's littered with them ;-) > Anchored in Mark Bay, BC > > | 23524|23524|2010-06-19 16:32:04|mickeyolaf|Andes|I added four more pictures. Completion is in sight.| 23525|23525|2010-06-19 19:20:56|martin|Rudder Buoyancy?|Hi All; A friend and I were looking at Prairie Maids rudder and he asked how much will it weigh when the boat is sitting in the water. Since it has a displacement it must be less than if it is just hanging there now in mid air. I know some of you love to work with formulas and crunch numbers just for the challenge of it. Any one ever worked out an aproximate amount of lift for the rudder on a 36ft.?? Martin..| 23526|23520|2010-06-19 22:52:04|Dave|Re: The transverse midship seam, and longitudinal stringers.|Is there any reason not to use flat bar (on edge) stringers? They would be a lot easier to blast and paint. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: You definitely don't want to lay the angle flat on the plate, as that leaves a space below it where you can't reach with a paintbrush, and it also drastically reduces the strength given by the angle. > > | 23527|23334|2010-06-20 03:17:52|wild_explorer|Re: 40 footer modeling|Brent, I will take your word - experience is much better reference than any simulator. May be 10% in this case make all the difference. What I have noticed simulating different keels, that long keel with short span will create not so sharp rising lift, but will operate up to wider angles. About 2-3 deg more. Just an observation. Tween keels' Max span is limited by hull's draft anyway. Min - by keeping the keel under water when heeling (Max is better). Another observation: Using different keel profile, it is possible to double volume of the keel without big effect on keels lift and drag. It could be useful if need to lower center of gravity of the keels (and hull). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Tank test can be misleading ,as they assume a boat is traveling in a straight line. At the ten degrees of leeway, common going to windward in a rough sea, and the amount of slewing around in a big quartering sea, a boat in a rough sea travels in anything but a straight line. Flat keels will stall repeatedly, causing a huge increase in drag, in any rough sea. Another misconception from tank tests and calculations is that in a tank, a hull is being propelled by a single point . Being propelled by sails is a whole different situation. > | 23528|23525|2010-06-20 03:33:01|wild_explorer|Re: Rudder Buoyancy?|Depending on rudder profile form, it could be about 0.016-0.02 cub.m., area about 2-2.5 sq.m (for weight calculation). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > Hi All; A friend and I were looking at Prairie Maids rudder and he asked how much will it weigh when the boat is sitting in the water. Since it has a displacement it must be less than if it is just hanging there now in mid air. I know some of you love to work with formulas and crunch numbers just for the challenge of it. Any one ever worked out an aproximate amount of lift for the rudder on a 36ft.?? > Martin.. > | 23529|23520|2010-06-20 16:05:14|kimdxx|Re: The transverse midship seam, and longitudinal stringers.|Thanks Brent. Cheers ... Kim. _____________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Parallel to the line on your pattern layout. I prefer to leave the plate a little long, but parallel to that line, then cut it off after tacking the centreline part. > We have done stringers both ways. You can put them in after pulling the halves together, its a bit of a struggle to keep the angle upright . Vise grips clamped on the upper leg of the angle make it easier to keep it upright when getting started. You definitely don't want to lay the angle flat on the plate, as that leaves a space below it where you can't reach with a paintbrush, and it also drastically reduces the strength given by the angle. > Putting them on before pulling the half together is definitely easier. If you start them the same distance from the chine on both sides, they will match up after the hull side is pulled together, then you span the seam with a short piece. | 23530|23530|2010-06-21 12:40:37|kurlidog|Dickinson Pacific Diesel Cookstove 12v/two coil|If anyone is interested I have this cookstove/heater for sale, brand new, still in wrappings. It comes with fuel pump, stovepipe, barometric damper, fuel shut off valve. I paid $2700, looking for reasonable offers. Chris| 23531|23520|2010-06-21 13:56:03|brentswain38|Re: The transverse midship seam, and longitudinal stringers.|I used to use flatbar longitudinals . They were easier to paint, and adequate, but the hulls were nowhere near a stiff as with angles. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" wrote: > > > > > Is there any reason not to use flat bar (on edge) stringers? They would be a lot easier to blast and paint. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > You definitely don't want to lay the angle flat on the plate, as that leaves a space below it where you can't reach with a paintbrush, and it also drastically reduces the strength given by the angle. > > > > > | 23532|23532|2010-06-21 16:18:33|Jonathan Stevens|Book on boat electrics|Is there a favourite book on boat wiring, design and installation, please? Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23533|23520|2010-06-21 20:22:02|Gary H. Lucas|Re: The transverse midship seam, and longitudinal stringers.|You are building a beam. The web of a beam serves to space the tension and compression members apart. On a relative scale the web adds very little stiffness to a beam. So the flange provide by the extra leg on the angle results in a MUCH stiffer hull. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 1:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The transverse midship seam, and longitudinal stringers. > > I used to use flatbar longitudinals . They were easier to paint, and > adequate, but the hulls were nowhere near a stiff as with angles. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Is there any reason not to use flat bar (on edge) stringers? They would >> be a lot easier to blast and paint. >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" >> wrote: >> You definitely don't want to lay the angle flat on the plate, as that >> leaves a space below it where you can't reach with a paintbrush, and it >> also drastically reduces the strength given by the angle. >> > >> > >> > > > | 23534|23532|2010-06-21 20:31:57|Mark Hamill|Book on boat electrics|My favorite is "How I won a million dollars and had an electrician go to my boat" but failing that if you live in canada there is a boating standards manual that is available for free and they have some good references for wire size. Phone the Fed Gov toll free number. Probably every other maritime world govt has one too. "Living on 12 Volts with Ample Power" My copy is 1988 so may be newer. For radio grounding I have a document from ICOM that I can send you--or anyone else. You could probably email them about a metal boat if there isn't anything in the PDF. I don't have any info on lightening protection and would like to if anybody has handy. I have heard that the mast aerials have been approved as a lightening top point.in Canada but how that works I don't know. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23535|23532|2010-06-21 20:47:46|cumorglas|Re: Book on boat electrics|there is always the ultimate do as i say not as i do. Nigel Calder's "Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual" ISBN-13: 978-0070096189 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Is there a favourite book on boat wiring, design and installation, please? > > Jonathan. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23536|23532|2010-06-22 11:05:55|Norm Moore|Re: Book on boat electrics|It isn't found in a book, but the most useful information I've ever found on boat electrical systems is found here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/ Do a search of everything in the Engineering & Systems section under Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar and select all the posts by "Rick". Rick is Rick Young, a cruiser and electrical engineer who designed the Link 10/1000/2000 battery monitor. IMO he is the best source of information on this subject. As the saying goes he's forgotten more about batteries and charging systems than Nigel Calder ever knew. You'll discover that battery banks can be charged much faster at higher amperage than Calder recommendation; that a high output alternator, (a 200A alternator with a 400A battery bank isn't excessive), on your diesel engine can be very effective and take much less running time to bring your batteries to "absorption" or "float" charge level; that you should take your batteries to 100% periodically (at least monthly) to extend their life (using either shorepower battery charging or solar). If you're using a diesel engine then you don't need a "brushless" type alternator, instead use a high output truck alternator and control output with the field current to the brushes. Remove the automotive regulator from the alternator and toss it, (trucks and battery banks have totally different charging regimes); remove the diodes from the alternator and put them outside the engine compartment, somewhere cool, and give them a heat sink and a muffin fan. Use a 3 stage charger that allows you to set the charging voltage and amperage during absorption, float, and time-to-float (Rick describes how to do this), and has provision for a battery temperature sensor. Get one of the Link monitors. Before everyone screams conflict of interest - Rick was a staff engineer so he doesn't get royalties for his design and is no longer with the company. The design is really clever, like a gas gauge for your battery, all with minimal draw, staged colored (green, yellow, red) LEDs. There is also a digital output display that you can activate when you want more info. Norm Moore 559-645-5314 ________________________________ From: cumorglas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, June 21, 2010 5:47:34 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Book on boat electrics there is always the ultimate do as i say not as i do. Nigel Calder's "Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual" ISBN-13: 978-0070096189 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Is there a favourite book on boat wiring, design and installation, please? > > Jonathan. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23537|1036|2010-06-22 12:46:52|Mark Hamill|Desalinator|There is a desalinator on the Plastiki http://www.theplastiki.com/ that looks really interesting. Click on the window Explore the Plastiki and that image with hotspots will appear. Click on the one forward that says Desalinator--does anyone know who makes this?? MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23538|23538|2010-06-22 20:55:37|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|skeg position|Hi Brent, I just made a skeg similar to the one you show in your book, made of 3/16 in. plate. My concern is where to install it so I dont unbalance my boat. It is quite heavy, My boat is a 37 ft steel classic with a long stern overhang probably similar to that first boat you mentioned you had, "pipedream" and that you didn't like the way it handled. That is why I am installing a skeg so I can reposition the rudder more aft, to improve handling, instead of having it too much forward against the keel. The problem with those boat is that they dont have a very long waterline. I was thinking of welding the skeg so that it's rear would end with the rear limit of the boat's waterline and the rudder would exceed the waterline. Does it sounds like a good idea to you? Thanks, Martin.| 23539|23532|2010-06-23 02:18:32|Donal|Re: Book on boat electrics|-- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > Is there a favourite book on boat wiring, design and installation, please? Jonathan, Having completely rewired our boat, I feel there isn't a really good manual. Calder's is more a maintenance book, Ample power buries you in detail, but isn't much good on practicalities. The Boatowner's Illustrated Electrical Handbook by Charlie Wing has some value, but even it looks like what it was: special edition for West Marine. Lots of pretty drawings. 12 volt Bible good for overview of basic concepts. What I had trouble with is conceptualizing a system. Lots on wire sizing, say, but little on how to develop your system needs, find room (or even figure out what room you need for panels, raceways, bundles of wire, terminal blocks, etc.), and plans for expansion. That was the most frustrating part. I did a distributed system, but thinking it through both electrically and physically was a challenge and a lot of work. The actual mechanical work of attaching leads is easy (though usually painful from awkward body positions). Used PVC raceways and wish I had gone up in size. One interesting modern trouble: ABYC standards are no wire less than 16 gauge, but many marine electrical parts (such as LED lights) have wire on them that are often 22 gauge or smaller. I felt like I needed to do what I did in order to have a sense of what was really needed, then rip it out and do it for real. And I had my ham license at 13... donal| 23540|23538|2010-06-23 17:47:51|brentswain38|Re: skeg position|Yes the aft end of the waterline is a good position. Plumb the skeg for keel cooling while you are at it. It won't change the balance much. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > I just made a skeg similar to the one you show in your book, made of 3/16 in. plate. My concern is where to install it so I dont unbalance my boat. It is quite heavy, My boat is a 37 ft steel classic with a long stern overhang probably similar to that first boat you mentioned you had, "pipedream" and that you didn't like the way it handled. That is why I am installing a skeg so I can reposition the rudder more aft, to improve handling, instead of having it too much forward against the keel. The problem with those boat is that they dont have a very long waterline. I was thinking of welding the skeg so that it's rear would end with the rear limit of the boat's waterline and the rudder would exceed the waterline. Does it sounds like a good idea to you? > > Thanks, Martin. > | 23541|23532|2010-06-23 17:52:31|brentswain38|Re: Book on boat electrics|The 12 volt doctors handbook is another good one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Donal" wrote: > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Is there a favourite book on boat wiring, design and installation, please? > > Jonathan, > > Having completely rewired our boat, I feel there isn't a really good manual. Calder's is more a maintenance book, Ample power buries you in detail, but isn't much good on practicalities. The Boatowner's Illustrated Electrical Handbook by Charlie Wing has some value, but even it looks like what it was: special edition for West Marine. Lots of pretty drawings. 12 volt Bible good for overview of basic concepts. > > What I had trouble with is conceptualizing a system. Lots on wire sizing, say, but little on how to develop your system needs, find room (or even figure out what room you need for panels, raceways, bundles of wire, terminal blocks, etc.), and plans for expansion. That was the most frustrating part. I did a distributed system, but thinking it through both electrically and physically was a challenge and a lot of work. The actual mechanical work of attaching leads is easy (though usually painful from awkward body positions). Used PVC raceways and wish I had gone up in size. > > One interesting modern trouble: ABYC standards are no wire less than 16 gauge, but many marine electrical parts (such as LED lights) have wire on them that are often 22 gauge or smaller. > > I felt like I needed to do what I did in order to have a sense of what was really needed, then rip it out and do it for real. And I had my ham license at 13... > > donal > | 23542|23520|2010-06-23 17:52:46|brentswain38|Re: The transverse midship seam, and longitudinal stringers.|This is also the case with the transverse members supporting the twin keels , carrying their weight and loads from the chine to the tank edge.Using angle sinstead of flat bars gives one HUGE increase in strength. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > You are building a beam. The web of a beam serves to space the tension and > compression members apart. On a relative scale the web adds very little > stiffness to a beam. So the flange provide by the extra leg on the angle > results in a MUCH stiffer hull. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 1:52 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The transverse midship seam, and longitudinal > stringers. > > > > > > I used to use flatbar longitudinals . They were easier to paint, and > > adequate, but the hulls were nowhere near a stiff as with angles. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Is there any reason not to use flat bar (on edge) stringers? They would > >> be a lot easier to blast and paint. > >> > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > >> wrote: > >> You definitely don't want to lay the angle flat on the plate, as that > >> leaves a space below it where you can't reach with a paintbrush, and it > >> also drastically reduces the strength given by the angle. > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > | 23543|23532|2010-06-23 18:26:09|Mark Hamill|Re: Book on boat electrics|This site may be helpful in wiring. http://www.islandnet.com/robb/marine.html MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23544|23538|2010-06-23 20:28:07|martin demers|Re: skeg position|thanks Brent! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:45:22 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: skeg position Yes the aft end of the waterline is a good position. Plumb the skeg for keel cooling while you are at it. It won't change the balance much. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > I just made a skeg similar to the one you show in your book, made of 3/16 in. plate. My concern is where to install it so I dont unbalance my boat. It is quite heavy, My boat is a 37 ft steel classic with a long stern overhang probably similar to that first boat you mentioned you had, "pipedream" and that you didn't like the way it handled. That is why I am installing a skeg so I can reposition the rudder more aft, to improve handling, instead of having it too much forward against the keel. The problem with those boat is that they dont have a very long waterline. I was thinking of welding the skeg so that it's rear would end with the rear limit of the boat's waterline and the rudder would exceed the waterline. Does it sounds like a good idea to you? > > Thanks, Martin. > _________________________________________________________________ D�couvrez comment �changer avec vos vrais amis. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734398 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23545|23545|2010-06-24 18:13:19|wild_explorer|Twin keels vs. single keel|I made a page and put some information about it. Corrections, comments, suggestions??? http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/twin-keels| 23546|23546|2010-06-26 15:38:43|Jonathan Stevens|Boat electrics|As usual, the Origami Team has been of great help. Thank you. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23547|23547|2010-06-27 04:26:16|mickeyolaf|Dockwalking in Oslo|Spent the day checking out the boats here. It's either carvel hulled pilothouse ketch rigs or fast glass. No steel in sight unless 100' plus. Prices for marine gear are near double what we pay in the Pacific Northwest. Tax is 20%. The old wooden Northsea style yachts are absolutely beautiful sights as are the new blonds I see everywhere. It's good to be home among my tribe. If I was younger man I would stay here.| 23548|23547|2010-06-27 06:37:35|David Frantz|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|It is good to travel but gets harder with the years. Are you expecting to be there long? Any boat related follow ups would be welcomed. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 27, 2010, at 4:24 AM, mickeyolaf wrote: > Spent the day checking out the boats here. It's either carvel hulled pilothouse ketch rigs or fast glass. No steel in sight unless 100' plus. > Prices for marine gear are near double what we pay in the Pacific Northwest. Tax is 20%. > The old wooden Northsea style yachts are absolutely beautiful sights as are the new blonds I see everywhere. It's good to be home among my tribe. > If I was younger man I would stay here. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23549|23547|2010-06-27 07:27:48|Walter Schönfelder|Dockwalking in Oslo|Yes, steelboats are hard to find in Norway among (few) traditional carvel and klinker wooden boats and (lots of) plastic. And yes, most things cost twice as much as most other places. But no, tax is not 20 % here. It's 25 %. On the other hand, schools, medical care, higher education and other social goods are free for the public. We neither have to send our kids through a metal detector when they enter their school, nor is a local drug dealer waiting for them on their way home. Everything comes at a price. Walter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23550|23547|2010-06-27 17:50:02|mickeyolaf|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|I'll be here a few weeks. Oslo to Gothenburg, then on to Copenhagen, north again to Bergen, Trondheim, Snasa, back to Gothenburg and home. I'm an habitual dock walker. My wife shops. Had drinks this afternoon on a 4 masted Bark in Gothenburg harbour. Converted to a hotel/bar, still afloat and really well maintained. Must have been something to sail these ships in their day. When u look up the masts they just keep going. I'd be winded a third of the way up the ratlines. What I am really looking forward to is Nyhavn. Row upon row of old sailing pilothouse double enders rafted up in front of the old town. The same goes for Bergen. There's just hordes of tall slim blond women here. It must have been hard for my ancesters to leave these creatures behind when they were off in their longships raiding. I haven't made it to the Viking museum yet but I understand my countrymen returned from raiding the British Isles with a redhead under one arm and a case of Guinness under the other. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > It is good to travel but gets harder with the years. Are you expecting to be there long? Any boat related follow ups would be welcomed. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jun 27, 2010, at 4:24 AM, mickey olaf wrote: > > > Spent the day checking out the boats here. It's either carvel hulled pilothouse ketch rigs or fast glass. No steel in sight unless 100' plus. > > Prices for marine gear are near double what we pay in the Pacific Northwest. Tax is 20%. > > The old wooden Northsea style yachts are absolutely beautiful sights as are the new blonds I see everywhere. It's good to be home among my tribe. > > If I was younger man I would stay here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 23551|23547|2010-06-27 20:06:43|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|They're BLONDES, you need to get away from them at times to keep your sanity! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Dockwalking in Oslo > I'll be here a few weeks. Oslo to Gothenburg, then on to Copenhagen, north > again to Bergen, Trondheim, Snasa, back to Gothenburg and home. > > I'm an habitual dock walker. My wife shops. > > Had drinks this afternoon on a 4 masted Bark in Gothenburg harbour. > Converted to a hotel/bar, still afloat and really well maintained. Must > have been something to sail these ships in their day. When u look up the > masts they just keep going. I'd be winded a third of the way up the > ratlines. > > What I am really looking forward to is Nyhavn. Row upon row of old sailing > pilothouse double enders rafted up in front of the old town. The same goes > for Bergen. > > There's just hordes of tall slim blond women here. It must have been hard > for my ancesters to leave these creatures behind when they were off in > their longships raiding. > > I haven't made it to the Viking museum yet but I understand my countrymen > returned from raiding the British Isles with a redhead under one arm and a > case of Guinness under the other. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz > wrote: >> >> It is good to travel but gets harder with the years. Are you expecting >> to be there long? Any boat related follow ups would be welcomed. >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Jun 27, 2010, at 4:24 AM, mickey olaf wrote: >> >> > Spent the day checking out the boats here. It's either carvel hulled >> > pilothouse ketch rigs or fast glass. No steel in sight unless 100' >> > plus. >> > Prices for marine gear are near double what we pay in the Pacific >> > Northwest. Tax is 20%. >> > The old wooden Northsea style yachts are absolutely beautiful sights as >> > are the new blonds I see everywhere. It's good to be home among my >> > tribe. >> > If I was younger man I would stay here. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! >> > Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > | 23552|23547|2010-06-28 10:50:23|SHANE ROTHWELL|Dockwalking in Oslo|It's the classic definition of a civilized country. The rest of the world would do well to take heed. The only down side to that is the dilution of the blood lines of those lovely blondes! 1b. Dockwalking in Oslo Posted by: "Walter Schönfelder" w.schonfelder@... boatwayupnorth Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:27 am (PDT) Yes, steelboats are hard to find in Norway among (few) traditional carvel and klinker wooden boats and (lots of) plastic. And yes, most things cost twice as much as most other places. But no, tax is not 20 % here. It's 25 %. On the other hand, schools, medical care, higher education and other social goods are free for the public. We neither have to send our kids through a metal detector when they enter their school, nor is a local drug dealer waiting for them on their way home. Everything comes at a price. Walter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23553|23547|2010-06-28 11:57:27|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|As a old Brit the only redhead I can remember was the king Ethelred If he was carried off by a raiding party I can understand why he had the nickname Ethelred the unready If Guinness was taken back how can you Norse men claim to brew the strongest beer. I to enjoy dock walking and it is interesting to see how different approaches are taken in dealing with a common problems. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23554|23547|2010-06-28 16:28:17|theboilerflue|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|> > There's just hordes of tall slim blond women here. It must have been hard for my ancesters to leave these creatures behind when they were off in their longships raiding. sounds like where I belong....| 23555|23547|2010-06-29 15:44:00|mickeyolaf|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|I'm living this week on a Copenhagen canal. Liva-a-boards both sides. Quite a community. Danes picnic sitting with their feet hanging over the canal wall. All u need is a BBQ, 12 Carlsbergs, and your best girlfriend. Only one owner built steel boat with a great cabin aft. Lots of all wood boats but most are glass. Andersen winches on every boat. Self-tending foresails on tracks very common. One guy has his mast unstepped. He has it on the sidewalk on sawhorses where he is happily painting away while people just walk around him and the 50' stick. I stopped at a couple of marinas in Sweden on the way to Denmark. Clean, well maintained and ungated they are full of just f/glass. It's interesting that Nordic people don't have to gate their marina docks. I didn't have to prepay for my car's gas at the station. Most people here don't lock their bicycles. In Vancouver if it isn't locked or gated or alarmed it's stolen. I wonder what it is that makes Scandinavians so honest. Respect for others, genetics,.......? ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > There's just hordes of tall slim blond women here. It must have been hard for my ancesters to leave these creatures behind when they were off in their longships raiding. > > > > sounds like where I belong.... > | 23556|23547|2010-06-29 16:20:29|Paul Wilson|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|>>>>In Vancouver if it isn't locked or gated or alarmed it's stolen. I wonder what it is that makes Scandinavians so honest. Respect for others, genetics,.......? I lived in Vancouver for 10 years and had my car broken into several times. When I lived there, the problem was the hard drugs and the homeless people attracted by the warmer (for Canada) climate. A -35 Celsius winter like you get in the prairies tends to keep the streets clean. I haven't been in Canada for 5 years but I am coming back this summer. It will be interesting to see the changes. Enjoy your travels, Paul > > | 23557|23547|2010-06-30 01:04:09|Wally Paine|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|I visited Calgary in 1982. The light railway / bus system in the city was run entirely on an honor basis. One was simply expected to put the right fare in a box. I remember thinking that if they tried to run the London underground that way they'd be bust in about a week. Wally Paine --- On Tue, 29/6/10, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Dockwalking in Oslo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 29 June, 2010, 21:20   >>>>In Vancouver if it isn't locked or gated or alarmed it's stolen. I wonder what it is that makes Scandinavians so honest. Respect for others, genetics,.......? I lived in Vancouver for 10 years and had my car broken into several times. When I lived there, the problem was the hard drugs and the homeless people attracted by the warmer (for Canada) climate. A -35 Celsius winter like you get in the prairies tends to keep the streets clean. I haven't been in Canada for 5 years but I am coming back this summer. It will be interesting to see the changes. Enjoy your travels, Paul > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23558|23547|2010-06-30 15:57:31|brentswain38|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|After tomorrow tax on private boat and car sales in BC will be 18% --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Walter Schönfelder wrote: > > Yes, steelboats are hard to find in Norway among (few) traditional carvel > and klinker wooden boats and (lots of) plastic. And yes, most things cost > twice as much as most other places. But no, tax is not 20 % here. It's 25 %. > > On the other hand, schools, medical care, higher education and other social > goods are free for the public. We neither have to send our kids through a > metal detector when they enter their school, nor is a local drug dealer > waiting for them on their way home. > Everything comes at a price. > > Walter > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23559|23547|2010-06-30 16:04:54|brentswain38|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|It was Vikings taking gene sources from all the countries they invaded which created those beautiful blonds. The most beautiful, smartest and healthiest are the products of the widest gene pool and the most racial mixing. Pure bred means a small gene pool, and thus closer to inbreeding. Racial supremecists have it dead wrong. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > It's the classic definition of a civilized country. > > The rest of the world would do well to take heed. The only down side to that is the dilution of the blood lines of those lovely blondes! > > > > > 1b. Dockwalking in Oslo > Posted by: "Walter Schönfelder" w.schonfelder@... boatwayupnorth > Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:27 am (PDT) > > > Yes, steelboats are hard to find in Norway among (few) traditional carvel > and klinker wooden boats and (lots of) plastic. And yes, most things cost > twice as much as most other places. But no, tax is not 20 % here. It's 25 %. > > On the other hand, schools, medical care, higher education and other social > goods are free for the public. We neither have to send our kids through a > metal detector when they enter their school, nor is a local drug dealer > waiting for them on their way home. > Everything comes at a price. > > Walter > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23560|23547|2010-07-01 07:15:17|mickeyolaf|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|In my next life I will do my best to mix with as many redheads and blonds as possible. It will be a lot of work but if it is enhance the gene pool I'll man up and make the sacrifice. I went canal walking this am and took pictures of the only Danish steel boat moored here. Will post them with the Andes pictures. Interesting cabin design. He bought the boat half complete from a home builder who gave up. He doesn't like the deck but left the great cabin intact due to the huge inside room it creates. He told me people say it looks like a military "stealth" ship. He lives aboard with his son. Wants to put in a bow thruster but the tax on it in Denmark is $1500.00. Ouch. Tax wise in Canada we don't really have it that bad. Plus we have a healthy under the table economy which saves a few $'s. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It was Vikings taking gene sources from all the countries they invaded which created those beautiful blonds. The most beautiful, smartest and healthiest are the products of the widest gene pool and the most racial mixing. > Pure bred means a small gene pool, and thus closer to inbreeding. Racial supremecists have it dead wrong. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > It's the classic definition of a civilized country. > > > > The rest of the world would do well to take heed. The only down side to that is the dilution of the blood lines of those lovely blondes! > > > > > > > > > > 1b. Dockwalking in Oslo > > Posted by: "Walter Schönfelder" w.schonfelder@ boatwayupnorth > > Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:27 am (PDT) > > > > > > Yes, steelboats are hard to find in Norway among (few) traditional carvel > > and klinker wooden boats and (lots of) plastic. And yes, most things cost > > twice as much as most other places. But no, tax is not 20 % here. It's 25 %. > > > > On the other hand, schools, medical care, higher education and other social > > goods are free for the public. We neither have to send our kids through a > > metal detector when they enter their school, nor is a local drug dealer > > waiting for them on their way home. > > Everything comes at a price. > > > > Walter > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 23561|23547|2010-07-01 10:32:29|SHANE ROTHWELL|Dockwalking in Oslo|If you are talking about buying new from a dealer, give it a miss. If buying or sellikng privately, give it as a gift. Give the HST a complete miss, pay cash & if the vendor won't accept that, go elsewhere I wonder how long it's going to be before bullshit like this is going to push someone too far? If taxes were spent on people as they are in Scandahoovia, we'd have something to be proud of, but what they are creating here is subserviance. Somethings gotta give. Makes a Brentboat that much more attractive so that a man can give the whole damned mess a miss. Re: Dockwalking in Oslo Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:57 pm (PDT) After tomorrow tax on private boat and car sales in BC will be 18%| 23562|23547|2010-07-01 10:51:17|SHANE ROTHWELL|Dockwalking in Oslo|Brent, Quite right. I stand corrected. No racial slurr, nor offence, intended. It was meant as a joke. My wife is Asian. Shane Re: Dockwalking in Oslo Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:04 pm (PDT) It was Vikings taking gene sources from all the countries they invaded which created those beautiful blonds. The most beautiful, smartest and healthiest are the products of the widest gene pool and the most racial mixing. Pure bred means a small gene pool, and thus closer to inbreeding. Racial supremecists have it dead wrong. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > It's the classic definition of a civilized country. > > The rest of the world would do well to take heed. The only down side to that is the dilution of the blood lines of those lovely blondes! > | 23563|23547|2010-07-01 12:05:50|Ben Okopnik|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|On Thu, Jul 01, 2010 at 11:15:12AM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > In my next life I will do my best to mix with as many redheads and blonds as possible. > > It will be a lot of work but if it is enhance the gene pool I'll man up and make the sacrifice. I want you to know that we're all proud of you, and stand in awe of your unflagging dedication to duty and your heroism. Here and there, among the list members, I see a manly tear, quickly wiped, and jaws firmly set in a silent rededication to the "do or die" spirit of your mission... even if you should perish in the performance of your duties, we, your compatriots, shall follow your shining example, and take the banner from your failing hands. Be strong!... for we are with you. (And if she's got a sister, make sure to get her phone number, 'K? :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23564|23547|2010-07-01 13:13:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 07:39:11PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > > I wonder what it is that makes Scandinavians so honest. Respect for > others, genetics,.......? Speaking as a history buff, that's a mark of a strong warrior culture (plus some wealth, of course; take a warrior culture, add poverty/scarcity, and you get Afghanistan.) Ever notice how hunters and martial artists are very polite to each other? A couple of hundred generations of that breeds a very pragmatic attitude toward the concept of property. Bring that forward into the modern times, and that translates to lots of toleration and mutual respect. Very civilized folks, those Scandos. Just don't piss'em off. :) My kind of people. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23565|23547|2010-07-01 14:20:34|brentswain38|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|A couple of hundred years of bringing additions to your gene pool from the countries you conquer is a much larger factor. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 07:39:11PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > I wonder what it is that makes Scandinavians so honest. Respect for > > others, genetics,.......? > > Speaking as a history buff, that's a mark of a strong warrior culture > (plus some wealth, of course; take a warrior culture, add > poverty/scarcity, and you get Afghanistan.) Ever notice how hunters and > martial artists are very polite to each other? A couple of hundred > generations of that breeds a very pragmatic attitude toward the concept > of property. Bring that forward into the modern times, and that > translates to lots of toleration and mutual respect. > > Very civilized folks, those Scandos. Just don't piss'em off. :) My kind > of people. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23566|23547|2010-07-01 14:21:19|brentswain38|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|When they first brought in the GST, a spike in government revenues was reported, followed by a drop. They said Consumer spending was down. I said "Visible spending was down." That was the breaking point for many, and in ever increasing numbers. It wont be a sudden revolution, the underground economy will simply expand gradually, until there is less and less to support the bureaucrats. In Egypt and the Phillipines it takes 57 years to get legal building permit. Result , everything is built without . When you can't survive in the above ground economy , everyone simply moves underground, and there are fewer and fewer people to support the above ground economy. Bureaucrats are to dense to realize that the key to being a successful parasite is to not kill your host. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > If you are talking about buying new from a dealer, give it a miss. > > If buying or sellikng privately, give it as a gift. Give the HST a complete miss, pay cash & if the vendor won't accept that, go elsewhere > > I wonder how long it's going to be before bullshit like this is going to push someone too far? If taxes were spent on people as they are in Scandahoovia, we'd have something to be proud of, but what they are creating here is subserviance. Somethings gotta give. > > Makes a Brentboat that much more attractive so that a man can give the whole damned mess a miss. > > > > > > > Re: Dockwalking in Oslo > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 > Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:57 pm (PDT) > > > After tomorrow tax on private boat and car sales in BC will be 18% > | 23567|23547|2010-07-01 17:09:24|Gord Schnell|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|Brent You should forward this to our "Esteemed" premier....it's possible he might "see the light" (although I doubt it) Gord On 1-Jul-10, at 11:15 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > When they first brought in the GST, a spike in government revenues > was reported, followed by a drop. They said Consumer spending was > down. I said "Visible spending was down." That was the breaking > point for many, and in ever increasing numbers. It wont be a sudden > revolution, the underground economy will simply expand gradually, > until there is less and less to support the bureaucrats. In Egypt > and the Phillipines it takes 57 years to get legal building permit. > Result , everything is built without . When you can't survive in the > above ground economy , everyone simply moves underground, and there > are fewer and fewer people to support the above ground economy. > Bureaucrats are to dense to realize that the key to being a > successful parasite is to not kill your host. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > If you are talking about buying new from a dealer, give it a miss. > > > > If buying or sellikng privately, give it as a gift. Give the HST a > complete miss, pay cash & if the vendor won't accept that, go > elsewhere > > > > I wonder how long it's going to be before bullshit like this is > going to push someone too far? If taxes were spent on people as they > are in Scandahoovia, we'd have something to be proud of, but what > they are creating here is subserviance. Somethings gotta give. > > > > Makes a Brentboat that much more attractive so that a man can give > the whole damned mess a miss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Dockwalking in Oslo > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 > > Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:57 pm (PDT) > > > > > > After tomorrow tax on private boat and car sales in BC will be 18% > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23568|23547|2010-07-02 12:01:22|SHANE ROTHWELL|Dockwalking in Oslo|Brent et al, The terminology "under the table".....good bit of propoganda. The question is WHO'S TABLE??? If you are represnting your self as your "straw man" (leagal name is an 'artificial person', then if you pay cash, you are operating in the "underground" economy as "you" (the straw man) have no rights whatsoever and they WILL nail you if they find out But if you are representing yourself as a man, a human being (legal name is a "natural person"), then, exercising your -literally - gawd given right to do as you bloody like. This, the basis of British law going directly back to the Magna Carta of 1215. So, are you a corporation (a "social insurance number is a corporate registry number - ask anyone at CRA) or are you a man? Under the table? Fuck em, pay cash! Shane Re: Dockwalking in Oslo Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:21 am (PDT) When they first brought in the GST, a spike in government revenues was reported, followed by a drop. They said Consumer spending was down. I said "Visible spending was down." That was the breaking point for many, and in ever increasing numbers. It wont be a sudden revolution, the underground economy will simply expand gradually, until there is less and less to support the bureaucrats. In Egypt and the Phillipines it takes 57 years to get legal building permit. Result , everything is built without . When you can't survive in the above ground economy , everyone simply moves underground, and there are fewer and fewer people to support the above ground economy. Bureaucrats are to dense to realize that the key to being a successful parasite is to not kill your host. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > If you are talking about buying new from a dealer, give it a miss. > > If buying or sellikng privately, give it as a gift. Give the HST a complete miss, pay cash & if the vendor won't accept that, go elsewhere > > I wonder how long it's going to be before bullshit like this is going to push someone too far? If taxes were spent on people as they are in Scandahoovia, we'd have something to be proud of, but what they are creating here is subserviance. Somethings gotta give. > > Makes a Brentboat that much more attractive so that a man can give the whole damned mess a miss. > | 23569|23547|2010-07-02 13:39:53|brentswain38|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|In Italy, a huge portion of the economy is paying with cash in brown paper bags. How much, they have no way of knowing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Brent et al, > > The terminology "under the table".....good bit of propoganda. The question is WHO'S TABLE??? > > If you are represnting your self as your "straw man" (leagal name is an 'artificial person', then if you pay cash, you are operating in the "underground" economy as "you" (the straw man) have no rights whatsoever and they WILL nail you if they find out > > But if you are representing yourself as a man, a human being (legal name is a "natural person"), then, exercising your -literally - gawd given right to do as you bloody like. This, the basis of British law going directly back to the Magna Carta of 1215. > > So, are you a corporation (a "social insurance number is a corporate registry number - ask anyone at CRA) or are you a man? > > Under the table? Fuck em, pay cash! > > Shane > > > > Re: Dockwalking in Oslo > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 > Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:21 am (PDT) > > > When they first brought in the GST, a spike in government revenues was reported, followed by a drop. They said Consumer spending was down. I said "Visible spending was down." That was the breaking point for many, and in ever increasing numbers. It wont be a sudden revolution, the underground economy will simply expand gradually, until there is less and less to support the bureaucrats. In Egypt and the Phillipines it takes 57 years to get legal building permit. Result , everything is built without . When you can't survive in the above ground economy , everyone simply moves underground, and there are fewer and fewer people to support the above ground economy. > Bureaucrats are to dense to realize that the key to being a successful parasite is to not kill your host. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > If you are talking about buying new from a dealer, give it a miss. > > > > If buying or sellikng privately, give it as a gift. Give the HST a complete miss, pay cash & if the vendor won't accept that, go elsewhere > > > > I wonder how long it's going to be before bullshit like this is going to push someone too far? If taxes were spent on people as they are in Scandahoovia, we'd have something to be proud of, but what they are creating here is subserviance. Somethings gotta give. > > > > Makes a Brentboat that much more attractive so that a man can give the whole damned mess a miss. > > > | 23570|23547|2010-07-02 13:44:06|brentswain38|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|Gord, as an old cowboy , you will appreciate the article a friend sent me. It seems that our esteemed premier was told there are 200,000 cattle guards in BC . He promptly ordered the minister of agriculture to fire half of them. The letter was leaked, and the opposition is having a field day with it. A cattle guard is a steel grate, used to replace the gates that were once used to keep cattle in. They won't walk across it. Duuhhh! And they give him citizenship, just because he was born here. That is the kind of guy who is running our province. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Brent > You should forward this to our "Esteemed" premier....it's possible he > might "see the light" (although I doubt it) > Gord > > On 1-Jul-10, at 11:15 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > When they first brought in the GST, a spike in government revenues > > was reported, followed by a drop. They said Consumer spending was > > down. I said "Visible spending was down." That was the breaking > > point for many, and in ever increasing numbers. It wont be a sudden > > revolution, the underground economy will simply expand gradually, > > until there is less and less to support the bureaucrats. In Egypt > > and the Phillipines it takes 57 years to get legal building permit. > > Result , everything is built without . When you can't survive in the > > above ground economy , everyone simply moves underground, and there > > are fewer and fewer people to support the above ground economy. > > Bureaucrats are to dense to realize that the key to being a > > successful parasite is to not kill your host. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > > wrote: > > > > > > If you are talking about buying new from a dealer, give it a miss. > > > > > > If buying or sellikng privately, give it as a gift. Give the HST a > > complete miss, pay cash & if the vendor won't accept that, go > > elsewhere > > > > > > I wonder how long it's going to be before bullshit like this is > > going to push someone too far? If taxes were spent on people as they > > are in Scandahoovia, we'd have something to be proud of, but what > > they are creating here is subserviance. Somethings gotta give. > > > > > > Makes a Brentboat that much more attractive so that a man can give > > the whole damned mess a miss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Dockwalking in Oslo > > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@ brentswain38 > > > Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:57 pm (PDT) > > > > > > > > > After tomorrow tax on private boat and car sales in BC will be 18% > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23571|23547|2010-07-02 14:50:57|Gord Schnell|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|Brent Yes, I know about cattle guards......ranchers hate them because frightened (stampeding) cattle see the opening in the fence and charge on thru, breaking legs as their feet fall thru. Clearly our esteemed premier is NOT "country folk".......or not too bright .... or both. I'm really "pissed" that the group opposing the HST has collected more than the required signatures to have this thing killed and are now being denied. What kind of province has BC degenerated to? We've even lost our stated rights, which are far too few. Gord On 2-Jul-10, at 10:43 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > > Gord, as an old cowboy , you will appreciate the article a friend > sent me. > It seems that our esteemed premier was told there are 200,000 cattle > guards in BC . He promptly ordered the minister of agriculture to > fire half of them. The letter was leaked, and the opposition is > having a field day with it. > A cattle guard is a steel grate, used to replace the gates that were > once used to keep cattle in. They won't walk across it. > Duuhhh! And they give him citizenship, just because he was born > here. That is the kind of guy who is running our province. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell > wrote: > > > > Brent > > You should forward this to our "Esteemed" premier....it's possible > he > > might "see the light" (although I doubt it) > > Gord > > > > On 1-Jul-10, at 11:15 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > When they first brought in the GST, a spike in government revenues > > > was reported, followed by a drop. They said Consumer spending was > > > down. I said "Visible spending was down." That was the breaking > > > point for many, and in ever increasing numbers. It wont be a > sudden > > > revolution, the underground economy will simply expand gradually, > > > until there is less and less to support the bureaucrats. In Egypt > > > and the Phillipines it takes 57 years to get legal building > permit. > > > Result , everything is built without . When you can't survive in > the > > > above ground economy , everyone simply moves underground, and > there > > > are fewer and fewer people to support the above ground economy. > > > Bureaucrats are to dense to realize that the key to being a > > > successful parasite is to not kill your host. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > If you are talking about buying new from a dealer, give it a > miss. > > > > > > > > If buying or sellikng privately, give it as a gift. Give the > HST a > > > complete miss, pay cash & if the vendor won't accept that, go > > > elsewhere > > > > > > > > I wonder how long it's going to be before bullshit like this is > > > going to push someone too far? If taxes were spent on people as > they > > > are in Scandahoovia, we'd have something to be proud of, but what > > > they are creating here is subserviance. Somethings gotta give. > > > > > > > > Makes a Brentboat that much more attractive so that a man can > give > > > the whole damned mess a miss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Dockwalking in Oslo > > > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@ brentswain38 > > > > Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:57 pm (PDT) > > > > > > > > > > > > After tomorrow tax on private boat and car sales in BC will be > 18% > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23572|23547|2010-07-02 17:21:27|Paul Wilson|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|I could go on and on but it's easy to sum it up this way..... The whole system is a house of cards and the government needs more building materials. Paul brentswain38 wrote: > > In Italy, a huge portion of the economy is paying with cash in brown > paper bags. How much, they have no way of knowing. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Brent et al, > > > > The terminology "under the table".....good bit of propoganda. The > question is WHO'S TABLE??? > > > > If you are represnting your self as your "straw man" (leagal name is > an 'artificial person', then if you pay cash, you are operating in the > "underground" economy as "you" (the straw man) have no rights > whatsoever and they WILL nail you if they find out > > > > But if you are representing yourself as a man, a human being (legal > name is a "natural person"), then, exercising your -literally - gawd > given right to do as you bloody like. This, the basis of British law > going directly back to the Magna Carta of 1215. > > > > So, are you a corporation (a "social insurance number is a corporate > registry number - ask anyone at CRA) or are you a man? > > > > Under the table? Fuck em, pay cash! > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > Re: Dockwalking in Oslo > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 > > Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:21 am (PDT) > > > > > > When they first brought in the GST, a spike in government revenues > was reported, followed by a drop. They said Consumer spending was > down. I said "Visible spending was down." That was the breaking point > for many, and in ever increasing numbers. It wont be a sudden > revolution, the underground economy will simply expand gradually, > until there is less and less to support the bureaucrats. In Egypt and > the Phillipines it takes 57 years to get legal building permit. Result > , everything is built without . When you can't survive in the above > ground economy , everyone simply moves underground, and there are > fewer and fewer people to support the above ground economy. > > Bureaucrats are to dense to realize that the key to being a > successful parasite is to not kill your host. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, SHANE ROTHWELL ...> wrote: > > > > > > If you are talking about buying new from a dealer, give it a miss. > > > > > > If buying or sellikng privately, give it as a gift. Give the HST a > complete miss, pay cash & if the vendor won't accept that, go elsewhere > > > > > > I wonder how long it's going to be before bullshit like this is > going to push someone too far? If taxes were spent on people as they > are in Scandahoovia, we'd have something to be proud of, but what they > are creating here is subserviance. Somethings gotta give. > > > > > > Makes a Brentboat that much more attractive so that a man can give > the whole damned mess a miss. > > > > > > > | 23573|17463|2010-07-03 14:17:47|SHANE ROTHWELL|Lister 6/1 ok fopr a BS36|Hey, your mention of an 80 hp diesel set up with a plumbers block on the prop shaft to take all end load & engine mounted level. Exactly the same system I had on my boat. Used a drive shaft out of a 5 tonne truck, just chopped it down to size. BUT! if you are "hard mounting" as I was told it was called, be sure to soft mount your engine or the vibro's will cause hell. Shane 2a. Lister 6/1 ok fopr a BS36 Posted by: "peter_d_wiley" peter_d_wiley@... peter_d_wiley Thu May 29, 2008 7:09 pm (PDT) --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: If you're going to try to couple the greatest > part of your engine output into something, you might want to start > thinking about gear drive, or direct drive plus a clutch. Belt drive is > wonderful wherever you *want* some slip - e.g., you don't want your > engine stalling just because your alternator froze up - but it's not all > that good at actually transmitting power, as Shane notes. True if you restrict your thinking to V belts. Not true if you expand your thinking to serpentine belts or far more pertinently toothed belts. These are widely used in industry to transmit power. However your point about thinking it through is spot on. > > Whenever I design anything outside the range of the usual and the > average, I try to remember that off-the-shelf parts have certain > assumptions built into them (e.g., "nobody is going to use our long > screwdrivers to pry things out - so we don't have to make the shaft very > strong") - and I buy or design accordingly. Heh. I saw a boat fitted with an 80HP diesel and 2:1 g/box feeding its power through a CV joint setup to a fully floating prop shaft once. The shaft had roller & thrust bearings in housings so no thrust was going to the shaft & g/box. Engine was mounted flat. The owner pointed it out to me and when I queried him as to its robustness, he said that 300HP race boats used similar setups for their drive, so it was plenty strong enough. Then I pointed out the torque and rpm. It was destined for a very short life IMO as CV joints aren't designed to take that level of torque (it was off a car). If he'd used a short tractor PTO shaft it would have been fine. Anything that an take the abuse of driving a big slasher cutting rough grass, bushes and small trees isn't going to worry about the torque needed to drive a prop. | 23574|23547|2010-07-03 14:33:30|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Dockwalking in Oslo|Gord, Our "esteemed Premier" is NOT breaking the law! As Canada was incorporated in 1969 under the auspices of that son of a bitch peirre elliot tredeau (incorportated in Washington DC, check out the american securities and exchange listings. the business address for Canada Inc is a post office box in the Canadian Emabssy in washigton dc. what a bloody fraud) And as all provinces are incorporated as well (and cities, municipalities etc), then our "esteemed premier", being nothing more than the CEO of BC INC. (not B.C. or British Columbia) can legally do any damned thing he likes. And as long as we continue to represent our selves a YOUR NAME IN FULL CAPITAL LETTERS along with "your" corporate registry number, that 9 digit number many people use to represent themselves, then bend over, they are going to do exactly what they like. At your expence,for now and forever more. I believe the technical term is "up yours" Man have we been suckered! . Re: Dockwalking in Oslo Posted by: "Gord Schnell" gschnell@... withamazinggrace Fri Jul 2, 2010 11:50 am (PDT) Brent Yes, I know about cattle guards...... ranchers hate them because frightened (stampeding) cattle see the opening in the fence and charge on thru, breaking legs as their feet fall thru. Clearly our esteemed premier is NOT "country folk"....... or not too bright .... or both. I'm really "pissed" that the group opposing the HST has collected more than the required signatures to have this thing killed and are now being denied. What kind of province has BC degenerated to? We've even lost our stated rights, which are far too few. Gord On 2-Jul-10, at 10:43 AM, brentswain38 wrote: | 23575|23575|2010-07-03 15:56:28|brentswain38|Back to boats|Summer has arrived in BC at last, sun beating down and I'm off to the lake. Not as many boats as usual up here on Cortes this summer.| 23576|17463|2010-07-04 16:44:15|cumorglas|Lister 6/1 ok fopr a BS36|you should have no problem running a 4kw gen head of a lister 6/1 i know people who run 6500 watt heads with them as a permanent thing. my concern is with the choice of a lister at all. they are a fantastic choice for stationary engines that need to run day in and day out in crappy environments and run on sketchy fuel, or even run wvo with out modification. they run at 600 rpm and make a pleasant noise. after a couple hundred thousand hours they can be rebuilt with new sleeves, rings and bearings for about a hundred bucks. but they are freakin' huge. weigh 800 or more lbs. and are not engines that you would start for an hour a day. starting involve popping open the decompressor, spinning the very heavy flywheel up to speed, throwing the decompressor back closed and hoping she catches. i love the one in the workshop, can't imagine it on a 36 foot boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Shane, > > you sed > > "The engine will be for generating power. I expect to > run it for about > an hour a day to charge batteries, heat water and for > heavy AC loads. > This will be 99% of its use. I figure 6hp should get > me about 4kw and > any bigger would be wasted." > > Ok, but I figurre your quite optomistic on what you > will be able to net, or run in terms of an alternator > or generator. Did a very similar setup myself on my > boat some years back with an 8 HP yanmar that was > rebuilt > > I had a 3 kw generator, an 80 amp alternator an an > office pump (office = "oh fuck i'm scared" & that > sucker would move water big time!) with the whole mess > belted so I could switch between functins. > > anyway, 746 watts per hp which you probably know, but > you have got to figure in the various inneficiencies > of the system. your 6 hp lister/whatever is not going > to be run full blast all the time & will you get a > full 6 hp out of it?, maybe figure 75-80% is pretty > good sos your not beating hell out of it? > > then there is the belt system which is going to cost > you around 25% . chain drive is very effient, I'm told > high 90's but don't know for sure. > > nother trick is to mount it on big oversized rubber > mounts & over insulate for retention of sanity > > Cheers, > Shane > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > | 23577|23577|2010-07-04 22:08:47|kimdxx|6013 -v- the others.|Greetings everyone ... Over the years there has been some excellent and extremely informative discussions in this group about the relative merits of different types of (stick) welding rods for mild steel. I know Brent prefers 7024 (for flat horizontal downhand work) and 6011 (for everything else). Although these types seem to be readily available in North America, they are rare and very expensive here in Australia, and I understand that is also the case in the UK and much of Europe. By far the the most common and cheapest rods available in Australia are 6013. They are a third to half the price of 7024 rods (at least in the 2.5mm diameter that I need)! 6011 are even rarer, and some major manufacturers here (eg: BOC) don't even make them. However, from what I've been able to glean from earlier messages, 6013 rods are generally not recommended by many posters, because they are a "shallow penetration" type, the welds created by 6013 electrodes are perhaps sometimes prone to cracking under stress (such as when pulling the hull seams together and joining the two halves of the hull), and the weld joints require more preparation (at least compared to 6011, which apparently will weld through almost anything). I get the feeling that 6013 rods are somehow "not as good" as other alternatives. But because of their low price, ready availability, ease of use, and the all-position nature of 6013 rods, I would naturally like to use them for *all* the welding in my boat. But I hesitate to do so because of the above alleged reasons. So my questions are: my Swain 26 is going to be built almost entirely of 3mm plate (that's a bit less than 1/8"). Because my steel is so thin, do I really have to worry about the "shallow penetration" of 6013 rods? Indeed, because it's such thin plate, would not a "shallow penetration" rod be better (to help prevent burn-through, etc)? And if I wanted deeper penetration, could I not achieve that by cranking up the amps a bit or slowing down the rate of travel? Are the other downsides to 6013 rods (particularly the alleged susceptibility to cracking under stress) likely to be an issue with 3mm plate? Would greatly appreciate anyone's comments on this. Cheers ... Kim. ____________________________________| 23578|23577|2010-07-04 23:46:10|Ben Okopnik|Re: 6013 -v- the others.|On Mon, Jul 05, 2010 at 02:08:39AM -0000, kimdxx wrote: > > I know Brent prefers 7024 (for flat horizontal downhand work) and 6011 > (for everything else). Although these types seem to be readily > available in North America, they are rare and very expensive here in > Australia, and I understand that is also the case in the UK and much > of Europe. > > By far the the most common and cheapest rods available in Australia > are 6013. They are a third to half the price of 7024 rods (at least in > the 2.5mm diameter that I need)! 6011 are even rarer, and some major > manufacturers here (eg: BOC) don't even make them. Given how much rod you'll need for the job and the price disparity, you might want to consider what the price from the US (or wherever) plus shipping would be. I don't know that it'll be less; I'm just saying that it might be worth your while to find out. I recently bought some Chinese SS rod from Harbor Freight (http://harborfreight.com), just to try it out, and it was 1) perfectly fine and 2) very inexpensive. Maybe they'd be willing to ship direct to AU... -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23579|23577|2010-07-05 17:47:00|Tom Mann|Re: 6013 -v- the others.|Hello Kim 6013 is a fine rod, lot cleaner than 6011. Has the apearance of 7018 when done. Little more detail to joint prep, clean no rust, mill scale or slag but then it should be that way even if using 6011, anyone tell you different there is just to lazy to do a proper job. 6013 has a heavy slag so it takes a little more to get use to. I would say try it and see how you like it . Tom On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 7:08 PM, kimdxx wrote: > > Greetings everyone ... > > Over the years there has been some excellent and extremely informative > discussions in this group about the relative merits of different types of > (stick) welding rods for mild steel. > > I know Brent prefers 7024 (for flat horizontal downhand work) and 6011 (for > everything else). Although these types seem to be readily available in North > America, they are rare and very expensive here in Australia, and I > understand that is also the case in the UK and much of Europe. > > By far the the most common and cheapest rods available in Australia are > 6013. They are a third to half the price of 7024 rods (at least in the 2.5mm > diameter that I need)! 6011 are even rarer, and some major manufacturers > here (eg: BOC) don't even make them. > > However, from what I've been able to glean from earlier messages, 6013 rods > are generally not recommended by many posters, because they are a "shallow > penetration" type, the welds created by 6013 electrodes are perhaps > sometimes prone to cracking under stress (such as when pulling the hull > seams together and joining the two halves of the hull), and the weld joints > require more preparation (at least compared to 6011, which apparently will > weld through almost anything). > > I get the feeling that 6013 rods are somehow "not as good" as other > alternatives. > > But because of their low price, ready availability, ease of use, and the > all-position nature of 6013 rods, I would naturally like to use them for > *all* the welding in my boat. But I hesitate to do so because of the above > alleged reasons. > > So my questions are: my Swain 26 is going to be built almost entirely of > 3mm plate (that's a bit less than 1/8"). Because my steel is so thin, do I > really have to worry about the "shallow penetration" of 6013 rods? Indeed, > because it's such thin plate, would not a "shallow penetration" rod be > better (to help prevent burn-through, etc)? And if I wanted deeper > penetration, could I not achieve that by cranking up the amps a bit or > slowing down the rate of travel? Are the other downsides to 6013 rods > (particularly the alleged susceptibility to cracking under stress) likely to > be an issue with 3mm plate? > > Would greatly appreciate anyone's comments on this. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > ____________________________________ > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23580|23577|2010-07-05 19:33:49|brentswain38|Re: 6013 -v- the others.|It's like a mini 7024, lower amperage, which will weld uphand and overhead. Won't blow out slag like 6011. You end up with a smooth weld. 60 is the tensile strength 13 is the freezing rate, which is slower freezing ( runnier ) than 6011, which is why you get a much smoother weld. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Hello Kim > 6013 is a fine rod, lot cleaner than 6011. Has the apearance of 7018 when > done. Little more detail to joint prep, clean no rust, mill scale or slag > but then it should be that way even if using 6011, anyone tell you different > there is just to lazy to do a proper job. 6013 has a heavy slag so it takes > a little more to get use to. I would say try it and see how you like it . > Tom > > On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 7:08 PM, kimdxx wrote: > > > > > Greetings everyone ... > > > > Over the years there has been some excellent and extremely informative > > discussions in this group about the relative merits of different types of > > (stick) welding rods for mild steel. > > > > I know Brent prefers 7024 (for flat horizontal downhand work) and 6011 (for > > everything else). Although these types seem to be readily available in North > > America, they are rare and very expensive here in Australia, and I > > understand that is also the case in the UK and much of Europe. > > > > By far the the most common and cheapest rods available in Australia are > > 6013. They are a third to half the price of 7024 rods (at least in the 2.5mm > > diameter that I need)! 6011 are even rarer, and some major manufacturers > > here (eg: BOC) don't even make them. > > > > However, from what I've been able to glean from earlier messages, 6013 rods > > are generally not recommended by many posters, because they are a "shallow > > penetration" type, the welds created by 6013 electrodes are perhaps > > sometimes prone to cracking under stress (such as when pulling the hull > > seams together and joining the two halves of the hull), and the weld joints > > require more preparation (at least compared to 6011, which apparently will > > weld through almost anything). > > > > I get the feeling that 6013 rods are somehow "not as good" as other > > alternatives. > > > > But because of their low price, ready availability, ease of use, and the > > all-position nature of 6013 rods, I would naturally like to use them for > > *all* the welding in my boat. But I hesitate to do so because of the above > > alleged reasons. > > > > So my questions are: my Swain 26 is going to be built almost entirely of > > 3mm plate (that's a bit less than 1/8"). Because my steel is so thin, do I > > really have to worry about the "shallow penetration" of 6013 rods? Indeed, > > because it's such thin plate, would not a "shallow penetration" rod be > > better (to help prevent burn-through, etc)? And if I wanted deeper > > penetration, could I not achieve that by cranking up the amps a bit or > > slowing down the rate of travel? Are the other downsides to 6013 rods > > (particularly the alleged susceptibility to cracking under stress) likely to > > be an issue with 3mm plate? > > > > Would greatly appreciate anyone's comments on this. > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > ____________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23581|17463|2010-07-05 19:35:41|brentswain38|Lister 6/1 ok fopr a BS36|Far too heavy for a 36 and too slow . For that kind of RPM you need a huge prop which would leave little left in theskeg. Such a prop would also kill sailing performance. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cumorglas" wrote: > > you should have no problem running a 4kw gen head of a lister 6/1 i know people who run 6500 watt heads with them as a permanent thing. > > my concern is with the choice of a lister at all. they are a fantastic choice for stationary engines that need to run day in and day out in crappy environments and run on sketchy fuel, or even run wvo with out modification. they run at 600 rpm and make a pleasant noise. after a couple hundred thousand hours they can be rebuilt with new sleeves, rings and bearings for about a hundred bucks. > > but they are freakin' huge. weigh 800 or more lbs. and are not engines that you would start for an hour a day. starting involve popping open the decompressor, spinning the very heavy flywheel up to speed, throwing the decompressor back closed and hoping she catches. > > i love the one in the workshop, can't imagine it on a 36 foot boat. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Shane, > > > > you sed > > > > "The engine will be for generating power. I expect to > > run it for about > > an hour a day to charge batteries, heat water and for > > heavy AC loads. > > This will be 99% of its use. I figure 6hp should get > > me about 4kw and > > any bigger would be wasted." > > > > Ok, but I figurre your quite optomistic on what you > > will be able to net, or run in terms of an alternator > > or generator. Did a very similar setup myself on my > > boat some years back with an 8 HP yanmar that was > > rebuilt > > > > I had a 3 kw generator, an 80 amp alternator an an > > office pump (office = "oh fuck i'm scared" & that > > sucker would move water big time!) with the whole mess > > belted so I could switch between functins. > > > > anyway, 746 watts per hp which you probably know, but > > you have got to figure in the various inneficiencies > > of the system. your 6 hp lister/whatever is not going > > to be run full blast all the time & will you get a > > full 6 hp out of it?, maybe figure 75-80% is pretty > > good sos your not beating hell out of it? > > > > then there is the belt system which is going to cost > > you around 25% . chain drive is very effient, I'm told > > high 90's but don't know for sure. > > > > nother trick is to mount it on big oversized rubber > > mounts & over insulate for retention of sanity > > > > Cheers, > > Shane > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > | 23582|23577|2010-07-06 04:55:06|kimdxx|Re: 6013 -v- the others.|Brent, Tom and Ben ... Many thanks for all your input. I think I'll give the 6013's a try. I like welding with them, and from a cost/availability aspect they are a logical choice down here. I'll do some destructive-testing on some samples first; but I suspect they'll probably pass. Tom: How's your 26-footer going? Have you launched it yet? Thanks again! Cheers ... Kim. ____________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kimdxx" wrote: Greetings everyone ... Over the years there has been some excellent and extremely informative discussions in this group about the relative merits of different types of (stick) welding rods for mild steel. I know Brent prefers 7024 (for flat horizontal downhand work) and 6011 (for everything else). Although these types seem to be readily available in North America, they are rare and very expensive here in Australia, and I understand that is also the case in the UK and much of Europe. By far the the most common and cheapest rods available in Australia are 6013. They are a third to half the price of 7024 rods (at least in the 2.5mm diameter that I need)! 6011 are even rarer, and some major manufacturers here (eg: BOC) don't even make them. However, from what I've been able to glean from earlier messages, 6013 rods are generally not recommended by many posters, because they are a "shallow penetration" type, the welds created by 6013 electrodes are perhaps sometimes prone to cracking under stress (such as when pulling the hull seams together and joining the two halves of the hull), and the weld joints require more preparation (at least compared to 6011, which apparently will weld through almost anything). I get the feeling that 6013 rods are somehow "not as good" as other alternatives. But because of their low price, ready availability, ease of use, and the all-position nature of 6013 rods, I would naturally like to use them for *all* the welding in my boat. But I hesitate to do so because of the above alleged reasons. So my questions are: my Swain 26 is going to be built almost entirely of 3mm plate (that's a bit less than 1/8"). Because my steel is so thin, do I really have to worry about the "shallow penetration" of 6013 rods? Indeed, because it's such thin plate, would not a "shallow penetration" rod be better (to help prevent burn-through, etc)? And if I wanted deeper penetration, could I not achieve that by cranking up the amps a bit or slowing down the rate of travel? Are the other downsides to 6013 rods (particularly the alleged susceptibility to cracking under stress) likely to be an issue with 3mm plate? Would greatly appreciate anyone's comments on this. Cheers ... Kim. ____________________________________ | 23583|23577|2010-07-07 20:08:12|Gary H. Lucas|Re: 6013 -v- the others.|Kim, I used to do a lot of work in the commercial greenhouse industry. The Dutch guys that came over here to weld up heating system piping use only 6013. The pipe is typically Sch 10 light wall 2". I've done quite a lot of repair welding with the 6013 on that kind of pipe, and it is preferred because it doesn't burn holes as easily when the fit up is poor. Position has a lot to do with penetration. For structural welding (boat) you should avoid welding downhill. Downhill welding causes the puddle simply run over the surface of the joint. Welding uphill the arc will dig into the joint and open up a crater that fills with molten metal and fuses well to the base. Uphill welding is slower, but much stronger. The current setting also has a big effect. Running with too little current may keep you from burning holes, but it also produces a weaker weld. You need to learn to control the heat by rod motion and briefly stopping and starting. It's tougher than just holding a steady arc, but produces stronger welds. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "kimdxx" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 6013 -v- the others. > > Brent, Tom and Ben ... > > Many thanks for all your input. I think I'll give the 6013's a try. I like > welding with them, and from a cost/availability aspect they are a logical > choice down here. I'll do some destructive-testing on some samples first; > but I suspect they'll probably pass. > > Tom: How's your 26-footer going? Have you launched it yet? > > Thanks again! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > ____________________________________ > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kimdxx" wrote: > > Greetings everyone ... > > Over the years there has been some excellent and extremely informative > discussions in this group about the relative merits of different types of > (stick) welding rods for mild steel. > > I know Brent prefers 7024 (for flat horizontal downhand work) and 6011 > (for everything else). Although these types seem to be readily available > in North America, they are rare and very expensive here in Australia, and > I understand that is also the case in the UK and much of Europe. > > By far the the most common and cheapest rods available in Australia are > 6013. They are a third to half the price of 7024 rods (at least in the > 2.5mm diameter that I need)! 6011 are even rarer, and some major > manufacturers here (eg: BOC) don't even make them. > > However, from what I've been able to glean from earlier messages, 6013 > rods are generally not recommended by many posters, because they are a > "shallow penetration" type, the welds created by 6013 electrodes are > perhaps sometimes prone to cracking under stress (such as when pulling the > hull seams together and joining the two halves of the hull), and the weld > joints require more preparation (at least compared to 6011, which > apparently will weld through almost anything). > > I get the feeling that 6013 rods are somehow "not as good" as other > alternatives. > > But because of their low price, ready availability, ease of use, and the > all-position nature of 6013 rods, I would naturally like to use them for > *all* the welding in my boat. But I hesitate to do so because of the above > alleged reasons. > > So my questions are: my Swain 26 is going to be built almost entirely of > 3mm plate (that's a bit less than 1/8"). Because my steel is so thin, do I > really have to worry about the "shallow penetration" of 6013 rods? Indeed, > because it's such thin plate, would not a "shallow penetration" rod be > better (to help prevent burn-through, etc)? And if I wanted deeper > penetration, could I not achieve that by cranking up the amps a bit or > slowing down the rate of travel? Are the other downsides to 6013 rods > (particularly the alleged susceptibility to cracking under stress) likely > to be an issue with 3mm plate? > > Would greatly appreciate anyone's comments on this. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > ____________________________________ > > > > | 23584|23577|2010-07-09 17:24:44|brentswain38|Re: 6013 -v- the others.|The nice thing about 6013, as with 7024, is it's such a smooth weld that if there are any holes , you can clearly see them ,not always the case with the rougher 6011. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Kim, > I used to do a lot of work in the commercial greenhouse industry. The Dutch > guys that came over here to weld up heating system piping use only 6013. The > pipe is typically Sch 10 light wall 2". I've done quite a lot of repair > welding with the 6013 on that kind of pipe, and it is preferred because it > doesn't burn holes as easily when the fit up is poor. > > Position has a lot to do with penetration. For structural welding (boat) > you should avoid welding downhill. Downhill welding causes the puddle > simply run over the surface of the joint. Welding uphill the arc will dig > into the joint and open up a crater that fills with molten metal and fuses > well to the base. Uphill welding is slower, but much stronger. The current > setting also has a big effect. Running with too little current may keep you > from burning holes, but it also produces a weaker weld. You need to learn > to control the heat by rod motion and briefly stopping and starting. It's > tougher than just holding a steady arc, but produces stronger welds. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kimdxx" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:54 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 6013 -v- the others. > > > > > > Brent, Tom and Ben ... > > > > Many thanks for all your input. I think I'll give the 6013's a try. I like > > welding with them, and from a cost/availability aspect they are a logical > > choice down here. I'll do some destructive-testing on some samples first; > > but I suspect they'll probably pass. > > > > Tom: How's your 26-footer going? Have you launched it yet? > > > > Thanks again! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > ____________________________________ > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kimdxx" wrote: > > > > Greetings everyone ... > > > > Over the years there has been some excellent and extremely informative > > discussions in this group about the relative merits of different types of > > (stick) welding rods for mild steel. > > > > I know Brent prefers 7024 (for flat horizontal downhand work) and 6011 > > (for everything else). Although these types seem to be readily available > > in North America, they are rare and very expensive here in Australia, and > > I understand that is also the case in the UK and much of Europe. > > > > By far the the most common and cheapest rods available in Australia are > > 6013. They are a third to half the price of 7024 rods (at least in the > > 2.5mm diameter that I need)! 6011 are even rarer, and some major > > manufacturers here (eg: BOC) don't even make them. > > > > However, from what I've been able to glean from earlier messages, 6013 > > rods are generally not recommended by many posters, because they are a > > "shallow penetration" type, the welds created by 6013 electrodes are > > perhaps sometimes prone to cracking under stress (such as when pulling the > > hull seams together and joining the two halves of the hull), and the weld > > joints require more preparation (at least compared to 6011, which > > apparently will weld through almost anything). > > > > I get the feeling that 6013 rods are somehow "not as good" as other > > alternatives. > > > > But because of their low price, ready availability, ease of use, and the > > all-position nature of 6013 rods, I would naturally like to use them for > > *all* the welding in my boat. But I hesitate to do so because of the above > > alleged reasons. > > > > So my questions are: my Swain 26 is going to be built almost entirely of > > 3mm plate (that's a bit less than 1/8"). Because my steel is so thin, do I > > really have to worry about the "shallow penetration" of 6013 rods? Indeed, > > because it's such thin plate, would not a "shallow penetration" rod be > > better (to help prevent burn-through, etc)? And if I wanted deeper > > penetration, could I not achieve that by cranking up the amps a bit or > > slowing down the rate of travel? Are the other downsides to 6013 rods > > (particularly the alleged susceptibility to cracking under stress) likely > > to be an issue with 3mm plate? > > > > Would greatly appreciate anyone's comments on this. > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > ____________________________________ > > > > > > > > > | 23585|23585|2010-07-10 13:14:54|theboilerflue|weldernator|Well I got my welder-alternator working, used a DENSO 121000-4040 12v 120amp alternator, 12v 60watt headlamp bulb to charge the field coil, and a 120v 100watt halogen bulb shorting the stinger to ground to absorb the spikes. The alternator or bolted to the floor next to the engine and I tension the belt with a turn buckle. It worked right off the bat, but is a little cold needs maybe another 5 amps or so judging from the look of the weld plus it's a little hard to start. So I'm figuring I'm going to need to speed up the alternator a bit. PTO has a 4" pulley and the alternator has a 3" I think I'll try a smaller alternator sheave first to see if that helps, if I could go form 3" to 1.5" that should be the equivalent of going to a 8" on the engine, and will be much easier than trying to find a larger one to attach to the engine. I just don't know if I'll be able to find a 1.5" pulley, if that is a common enough size? Engine is running at about 2800 rpm. I don't have the updated version of your book Brent, was wondering if either of those bulbs are too small or too big?| 23586|23585|2010-07-10 14:37:30|theboilerflue|Re: weldernator|I wonder to what the max current one can draw through the field coil with the 60watt bulb i'm only drawing 3-4 amps doubling that should theoretically double the welding current as well shouldn't it, but I also don't want to melt anything. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Well I got my welder-alternator working, used a DENSO 121000-4040 12v 120amp alternator, 12v 60watt headlamp bulb to charge the field coil, and a 120v 100watt halogen bulb shorting the stinger to ground to absorb the spikes. The alternator or bolted to the floor next to the engine and I tension the belt with a turn buckle. It worked right off the bat, but is a little cold needs maybe another 5 amps or so judging from the look of the weld plus it's a little hard to start. So I'm figuring I'm going to need to speed up the alternator a bit. PTO has a 4" pulley and the alternator has a 3" I think I'll try a smaller alternator sheave first to see if that helps, if I could go form 3" to 1.5" that should be the equivalent of going to a 8" on the engine, and will be much easier than trying to find a larger one to attach to the engine. I just don't know if I'll be able to find a 1.5" pulley, if that is a common enough size? Engine is running at about 2800 rpm. I don't have the updated version of your book Brent, was wondering if either of those bulbs are too small or too big? > | 23587|23587|2010-07-10 15:08:40|GP|Solenoid|Prince Rupert.... Up north having solenoid probsÂ…so I took out the solenoid and have a piece of wire tied on to an "arm" which I pull and engages the starter. (After starting, I have another wire aft that I pull which keeps the appendage from pinging on the flywheel. I manually "touch" the short thick wire from the starter to the heavy duty battery wire. Works fine everytime but it is just awkward. So, I now have bought a new solenoid. I want to bypass my "key" and old starter button as it is all old wiring harness until I get back down south and re-do the whole frigging thing. I just bought an ignition button with 2 terminalsÂ…guessing one is positive and one negative. To wire this to the solenoid which as 2 terminals side by side and one on top (with small screw). How would I wire this up to this starter button. I know the thick short wire on the starter is attached to the left post of the solenoid as you face the solenoid and that the positive battery wire and wire to the alternator attaches to the right post (facing solenoid). Would the correct connection be to attach the positive red wire from the push button starter to the this same terminal and the negative from the starter button to the top terminal of the solenoid (one with the screw on it). ThanksÂ… Gary| 23588|23587|2010-07-10 15:46:47|theboilerflue|Re: Solenoid|Get your multimeter out, set it to the conductivity setting, the one that makes a noise when you touch the prongs together, if the switch is an illuminated type it'll have three legs positive, ground and load, the ground is just for the light in the switch and the switch will work even if you don't hook that one up. The positive and load will be the ones that will make a sound when you press the button and no sound when you don't. You should have a lead running from the positive on the battery to the positive on the switch and a lead running from the load leg on the switch to the terminal on the solenoid. My solenoid is grounded to the engine so there's only one wire on it, you may have a floating ground and need to run a wire from the other terminal to ground. Then there should be a large terminal and a large cable running from the positive on the battery to the starter (and again if floating ground another one to the negative on the battery) That should be all you need for it to work. If you run a lead from the ground leg on the switch to the negative on the battery it'll light up when on. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Prince Rupert.... > > Up north having solenoid probsÂ…so I took out the solenoid and have a piece of wire tied on to an "arm" which I pull and engages the starter. (After starting, I have another wire aft that I pull which keeps the appendage from pinging on the flywheel. I manually "touch" the short thick wire from the starter to the heavy duty battery wire. Works fine everytime but it is just awkward. So, I now have bought a new solenoid. I want to bypass my "key" and old starter button as it is all old wiring harness until I get back down south and re-do the whole frigging thing. > > I just bought an ignition button with 2 terminalsÂ…guessing one is positive and one negative. > > To wire this to the solenoid which as 2 terminals side by side and one on top (with small screw). How would I wire this up to this starter button. I know the thick short wire on the starter is attached to the left post of the solenoid as you face the solenoid and that the positive battery wire and wire to the alternator attaches to the right post (facing solenoid). Would the correct connection be to attach the positive red wire from the push button starter to the this same terminal and the negative from the starter button to the top terminal of the solenoid (one with the screw on it). > > ThanksÂ… > Gary > | 23589|23587|2010-07-10 16:01:53|theboilerflue|Re: Solenoid|Sorry I should have read that better, didn't understand what you were asking at first. Take a wire from the positive on the battery and touch it to each of the terminals on the solenoid until it works, if you need a ground wire then do the same (try each combination) but with a wire to the negative on the battery as well. The switch should be wired to the the solenoid terminal that set it off when you put power to it. Also the coil in the solenoid should set off your multimeter when you touch it to both sides of the coil ie. ground and one of the terminals although it'll show some resistance rather than a dead short, my multimeter will just beep once then show the resistance in this case, rather than a long beeeeeeeeeeep. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Prince Rupert.... > > Up north having solenoid probsÂ…so I took out the solenoid and have a piece of wire tied on to an "arm" which I pull and engages the starter. (After starting, I have another wire aft that I pull which keeps the appendage from pinging on the flywheel. I manually "touch" the short thick wire from the starter to the heavy duty battery wire. Works fine everytime but it is just awkward. So, I now have bought a new solenoid. I want to bypass my "key" and old starter button as it is all old wiring harness until I get back down south and re-do the whole frigging thing. > > I just bought an ignition button with 2 terminalsÂ…guessing one is positive and one negative. > > To wire this to the solenoid which as 2 terminals side by side and one on top (with small screw). How would I wire this up to this starter button. I know the thick short wire on the starter is attached to the left post of the solenoid as you face the solenoid and that the positive battery wire and wire to the alternator attaches to the right post (facing solenoid). Would the correct connection be to attach the positive red wire from the push button starter to the this same terminal and the negative from the starter button to the top terminal of the solenoid (one with the screw on it). > > ThanksÂ… > Gary > | 23590|23590|2010-07-10 16:22:46|akenai|BS 36 Twin Keel|Brent I want to confirm that my twin Keels will be sticking out 34 inches for and aft with 2 inches inside. Aaron| 23591|23585|2010-07-10 17:11:38|Paul Wilson|Re: weldernator|You need at least 1000 rpm to get full output out of an alternator. You should be getting plenty of rpm based on your pulley sizes if you are running at 2800 rpm. I would try a little more field current. My 100 Amp alternator will take 10 amps through the field and I can put it direct to 12 volts without a problem. This is just my alternator, yours may be different, so be careful. I would try another bulb in parallel with the 60 watt headlamp bulb. You can step up it up a bit using 12 volt 10 watt bulbs and see how it goes. Cheers, Paul theboilerflue wrote: > > I wonder to what the max current one can draw through the field coil > with the 60watt bulb i'm only drawing 3-4 amps doubling that should > theoretically double the welding current as well shouldn't it, but I > also don't want to melt anything. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "theboilerflue" > wrote: > > > > Well I got my welder-alternator working, used a DENSO 121000-4040 > 12v 120amp alternator, 12v 60watt headlamp bulb to charge the field > coil, and a 120v 100watt halogen bulb shorting the stinger to ground > to absorb the spikes. The alternator or bolted to the floor next to > the engine and I tension the belt with a turn buckle. It worked right > off the bat, but is a little cold needs maybe another 5 amps or so > judging from the look of the weld plus it's a little hard to start. So > I'm figuring I'm going to need to speed up the alternator a bit. PTO > has a 4" pulley and the alternator has a 3" I think I'll try a smaller > alternator sheave first to see if that helps, if I could go form 3" to > 1.5" that should be the equivalent of going to a 8" on the engine, and > will be much easier than trying to find a larger one to attach to the > engine. I just don't know if I'll be able to find a 1.5" pulley, if > that is a common enough size? Engine is running at about 2800 rpm. I > don't have the updated version of your book Brent, was wondering if > either of those bulbs are too small or too big? > > > > | 23592|23585|2010-07-11 16:26:40|Matt Malone|Re: weldernator|You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the batteries absorb the spikes. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 09:11:29 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > You need at least 1000 rpm to get full output out of an alternator. You > should be getting plenty of rpm based on your pulley sizes if you are > running at 2800 rpm. > > I would try a little more field current. My 100 Amp alternator will take > 10 amps through the field and I can put it direct to 12 volts without a > problem. This is just my alternator, yours may be different, so be > careful. I would try another bulb in parallel with the 60 watt headlamp > bulb. You can step up it up a bit using 12 volt 10 watt bulbs and see > how it goes. > > Cheers, Paul > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > I wonder to what the max current one can draw through the field coil > > with the 60watt bulb i'm only drawing 3-4 amps doubling that should > > theoretically double the welding current as well shouldn't it, but I > > also don't want to melt anything. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "theboilerflue" > > wrote: > > > > > > Well I got my welder-alternator working, used a DENSO 121000-4040 > > 12v 120amp alternator, 12v 60watt headlamp bulb to charge the field > > coil, and a 120v 100watt halogen bulb shorting the stinger to ground > > to absorb the spikes. The alternator or bolted to the floor next to > > the engine and I tension the belt with a turn buckle. It worked right > > off the bat, but is a little cold needs maybe another 5 amps or so > > judging from the look of the weld plus it's a little hard to start. So > > I'm figuring I'm going to need to speed up the alternator a bit. PTO > > has a 4" pulley and the alternator has a 3" I think I'll try a smaller > > alternator sheave first to see if that helps, if I could go form 3" to > > 1.5" that should be the equivalent of going to a 8" on the engine, and > > will be much easier than trying to find a larger one to attach to the > > engine. I just don't know if I'll be able to find a 1.5" pulley, if > > that is a common enough size? Engine is running at about 2800 rpm. I > > don't have the updated version of your book Brent, was wondering if > > either of those bulbs are too small or too big? > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23593|23585|2010-07-11 18:08:37|Paul Wilson|Re: weldernator|Matt, it is a future project for me and I haven't actually done it with my alternator but I do understand how it all works. You don't need to do as you say to get high voltage. In the alternator welder, the output is disconnected from the batteries and the regulator bypassed so the voltage climbs high with the input amps to the field current from the 12 volt bulb. The 120 volt bulb on the output limits the voltage to a point where the spikes and high voltage shouldn't damage the alternator. This is not a thing to do unless you are willing to risk damaging your alternator which is another good argument for junk-yard alternators. There is a lot written on the internet on alternator welders on the off road/ 4wd sites but many of their designs get quite complex and are over-kill in my opinion. Brent's design is quite simple. Nevertheless, I would recommend finding models of alternators used before from the net that are known to take the abuse. Cheers, Paul Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a > steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle > without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single > alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will > not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its > frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will > give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators > in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the > batteries absorb the spikes. > > Matt > > > | 23594|23585|2010-07-11 20:36:42|Matt Malone|Re: weldernator|OK, if you are messing with the internals first, sure an alternator can put out 90 Volts maybe, but you are not getting 120 Amps at that voltage. Torque times RPM (radians per second actually) is power, and Volts times Amps is power. The electrical power out output by the alternator has to be less than the mechanical power into the alternator. The difference is the heat generated within the alternator. So if your modified alternator puts out 35 Volts and 120 Amps, then it has to be putting about 3 times as much torque-load on the engine and is dissipating at least 3 times as much heat inside the alternator. More likely, it is putting out about 40 Amps, or it is producing enough back-torque on the motor to slow it down, dropping the voltage for that reason. I would sooner run 3 alternators, within specifications, with batteries, and have something that is more reliable, at least until the salt corrosion attacks the alternators. There is another side-benefit of a battery system. For your one-alternator, no battery system, its 100% duty cycle capacity is equal to the output of the alternator. With batteries however, the 20% duty cycle for instance is 5 times the capacity of your alternators. So, for instance, 3 small, cheap 40 Amp alternators give you a 120 Amp welder with 33% duty cycle. If you want to do something structural with 4mm rods, that need 175 Amps, you can -- the batteries supply the high current for short bursts, the alternators catch up when you stop to change rods, chip slag, etc. Still it would be cool to see what messing with the internals of a single alternator can do, and the lifetime of the system you get. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:08:16 +1200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator Matt, it is a future project for me and I haven't actually done it with my alternator but I do understand how it all works. You don't need to do as you say to get high voltage. In the alternator welder, the output is disconnected from the batteries and the regulator bypassed so the voltage climbs high with the input amps to the field current from the 12 volt bulb. The 120 volt bulb on the output limits the voltage to a point where the spikes and high voltage shouldn't damage the alternator. This is not a thing to do unless you are willing to risk damaging your alternator which is another good argument for junk-yard alternators. There is a lot written on the internet on alternator welders on the off road/ 4wd sites but many of their designs get quite complex and are over-kill in my opinion. Brent's design is quite simple. Nevertheless, I would recommend finding models of alternators used before from the net that are known to take the abuse. Cheers, Paul Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a > steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle > without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single > alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will > not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its > frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will > give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators > in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the > batteries absorb the spikes. > > Matt > > > _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23595|23585|2010-07-11 21:04:56|Paul Wilson|Re: weldernator|Right, the high voltage is open circuit and drops as soon as you strike an arc so it is pretty crude. There are lots of people using single alternators but it is all smaller rod stuff so high amps, high duty cycle would be too much to ask for as you say. For a simple, emergency welding system, it is hard to beat, and relatively easy to rig up. Paul Matt Malone wrote: > OK, if you are messing with the internals first, sure an alternator can put out 90 Volts maybe, but you are not getting 120 Amps at that voltage. Torque times RPM (radians per second actually) is power, and Volts times Amps is power. The electrical power out output by the alternator has to be less than the mechanical power into the alternator. The difference is the heat generated within the alternator. So if your modified alternator puts out 35 Volts and 120 Amps, then it has to be putting about 3 times as much torque-load on the engine and is dissipating at least 3 times as much heat inside the alternator. More likely, it is putting out about 40 Amps, or it is producing enough back-torque on the motor to slow it down, dropping the voltage for that reason. > > I would sooner run 3 alternators, within specifications, with batteries, and have something that is more reliable, at least until the salt corrosion attacks the alternators. There is another side-benefit of a battery system. For your one-alternator, no battery system, its 100% duty cycle capacity is equal to the output of the alternator. With batteries however, the 20% duty cycle for instance is 5 times the capacity of your alternators. So, for instance, 3 small, cheap 40 Amp alternators give you a 120 Amp welder with 33% duty cycle. If you want to do something structural with 4mm rods, that need 175 Amps, you can -- the batteries supply the high current for short bursts, the alternators catch up when you stop to change rods, chip slag, etc. > > Still it would be cool to see what messing with the internals of a single alternator can do, and the lifetime of the system you get. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:08:16 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, it is a future project for me and I haven't actually done it with > > my alternator but I do understand how it all works. You don't need to > > do as you say to get high voltage. In the alternator welder, the > > output is disconnected from the batteries and the regulator bypassed so > > the voltage climbs high with the input amps to the field current from > > the 12 volt bulb. The 120 volt bulb on the output limits the voltage to > > a point where the spikes and high voltage shouldn't damage the > > alternator. This is not a thing to do unless you are willing to risk > > damaging your alternator which is another good argument for junk-yard > > alternators. There is a lot written on the internet on alternator > > welders on the off road/ 4wd sites but many of their designs get quite > > complex and are over-kill in my opinion. Brent's design is quite > > simple. Nevertheless, I would recommend finding models of alternators > > used before from the net that are known to take the abuse. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > Matt Malone wrote: > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a >> > > >> steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle >> > > >> without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single >> > > >> alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will >> > > >> not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its >> > > >> frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will >> > > >> give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators >> > > >> in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the >> > > >> batteries absorb the spikes. >> > > > > >> Matt >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 23596|23585|2010-07-11 21:32:43|David Frantz|Re: weldernator|Most alternator do about 10 to 1, output voltage to field voltage. Thus it is fairly simple to up the output voltage of an alternator. However for safeties sake you will want to make sure your open circuit voltage does not rise to high. In any event, as has already been mentioned, there are plenty of Internet sights covering the use of an alternator for a welder. Some of these guys are very creative to say the least. I only suggest verifying safety on your own. That is mainly an issue of open circuit voltage. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 11, 2010, at 6:08 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > Matt, it is a future project for me and I haven't actually done it with > my alternator but I do understand how it all works. You don't need to > do as you say to get high voltage. In the alternator welder, the > output is disconnected from the batteries and the regulator bypassed so > the voltage climbs high with the input amps to the field current from > the 12 volt bulb. The 120 volt bulb on the output limits the voltage to > a point where the spikes and high voltage shouldn't damage the > alternator. This is not a thing to do unless you are willing to risk > damaging your alternator which is another good argument for junk-yard > alternators. There is a lot written on the internet on alternator > welders on the off road/ 4wd sites but many of their designs get quite > complex and are over-kill in my opinion. Brent's design is quite > simple. Nevertheless, I would recommend finding models of alternators > used before from the net that are known to take the abuse. > > Cheers, Paul > > Matt Malone wrote: >> >> >> >> >> You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a >> steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle >> without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single >> alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will >> not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its >> frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will >> give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators >> in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the >> batteries absorb the spikes. >> >> Matt >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23597|23585|2010-07-11 21:45:57|David Frantz|Re: weldernator|The trick is to find an alternator that has an external regulator. These are admittedly harder to find these days and often result in a large alternator. An external regulator certainly simplifies becoming creative with a welder design. Your info with respect to power in and out is nice but remember that the windings have to be able to handle rated amps at 12VDC. So a 60 amp alternator will put out 60 amps at a higher voltage reliably. Power will vary with the square of the voltage but remember heating will be coming from the voltage drop in the windings. In the end I think you are better off with the largest alternator you can find. Something with nice heavy windings. Either way paying attention to cooling is important. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 11, 2010, at 8:32 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > OK, if you are messing with the internals first, sure an alternator can put out 90 Volts maybe, but you are not getting 120 Amps at that voltage. Torque times RPM (radians per second actually) is power, and Volts times Amps is power. The electrical power out output by the alternator has to be less than the mechanical power into the alternator. The difference is the heat generated within the alternator. So if your modified alternator puts out 35 Volts and 120 Amps, then it has to be putting about 3 times as much torque-load on the engine and is dissipating at least 3 times as much heat inside the alternator. More likely, it is putting out about 40 Amps, or it is producing enough back-torque on the motor to slow it down, dropping the voltage for that reason. > > I would sooner run 3 alternators, within specifications, with batteries, and have something that is more reliable, at least until the salt corrosion attacks the alternators. There is another side-benefit of a battery system. For your one-alternator, no battery system, its 100% duty cycle capacity is equal to the output of the alternator. With batteries however, the 20% duty cycle for instance is 5 times the capacity of your alternators. So, for instance, 3 small, cheap 40 Amp alternators give you a 120 Amp welder with 33% duty cycle. If you want to do something structural with 4mm rods, that need 175 Amps, you can -- the batteries supply the high current for short bursts, the alternators catch up when you stop to change rods, chip slag, etc. > > Still it would be cool to see what messing with the internals of a single alternator can do, and the lifetime of the system you get. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:08:16 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, it is a future project for me and I haven't actually done it with > > my alternator but I do understand how it all works. You don't need to > > do as you say to get high voltage. In the alternator welder, the > > output is disconnected from the batteries and the regulator bypassed so > > the voltage climbs high with the input amps to the field current from > > the 12 volt bulb. The 120 volt bulb on the output limits the voltage to > > a point where the spikes and high voltage shouldn't damage the > > alternator. This is not a thing to do unless you are willing to risk > > damaging your alternator which is another good argument for junk-yard > > alternators. There is a lot written on the internet on alternator > > welders on the off road/ 4wd sites but many of their designs get quite > > complex and are over-kill in my opinion. Brent's design is quite > > simple. Nevertheless, I would recommend finding models of alternators > > used before from the net that are known to take the abuse. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > Matt Malone wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a > >> steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle > >> without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single > >> alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will > >> not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its > >> frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will > >> give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators > >> in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the > >> batteries absorb the spikes. > >> > >> Matt > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23598|23585|2010-07-11 22:11:52|Aaron Williams|Re: weldernator|Would you be able to use something like these wind generator type? http://www.missouriwindandsolar.com/PMA_S_and_Parts.html --- On Sun, 7/11/10, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Sunday, July 11, 2010, 5:45 PM   The trick is to find an alternator that has an external regulator. These are admittedly harder to find these days and often result in a large alternator. An external regulator certainly simplifies becoming creative with a welder design. Your info with respect to power in and out is nice but remember that the windings have to be able to handle rated amps at 12VDC. So a 60 amp alternator will put out 60 amps at a higher voltage reliably. Power will vary with the square of the voltage but remember heating will be coming from the voltage drop in the windings. In the end I think you are better off with the largest alternator you can find. Something with nice heavy windings. Either way paying attention to cooling is important. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 11, 2010, at 8:32 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > OK, if you are messing with the internals first, sure an alternator can put out 90 Volts maybe, but you are not getting 120 Amps at that voltage. Torque times RPM (radians per second actually) is power, and Volts times Amps is power. The electrical power out output by the alternator has to be less than the mechanical power into the alternator. The difference is the heat generated within the alternator. So if your modified alternator puts out 35 Volts and 120 Amps, then it has to be putting about 3 times as much torque-load on the engine and is dissipating at least 3 times as much heat inside the alternator. More likely, it is putting out about 40 Amps, or it is producing enough back-torque on the motor to slow it down, dropping the voltage for that reason. > > I would sooner run 3 alternators, within specifications, with batteries, and have something that is more reliable, at least until the salt corrosion attacks the alternators. There is another side-benefit of a battery system. For your one-alternator, no battery system, its 100% duty cycle capacity is equal to the output of the alternator. With batteries however, the 20% duty cycle for instance is 5 times the capacity of your alternators. So, for instance, 3 small, cheap 40 Amp alternators give you a 120 Amp welder with 33% duty cycle. If you want to do something structural with 4mm rods, that need 175 Amps, you can -- the batteries supply the high current for short bursts, the alternators catch up when you stop to change rods, chip slag, etc. > > Still it would be cool to see what messing with the internals of a single alternator can do, and the lifetime of the system you get. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:08:16 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, it is a future project for me and I haven't actually done it with > > my alternator but I do understand how it all works. You don't need to > > do as you say to get high voltage. In the alternator welder, the > > output is disconnected from the batteries and the regulator bypassed so > > the voltage climbs high with the input amps to the field current from > > the 12 volt bulb. The 120 volt bulb on the output limits the voltage to > > a point where the spikes and high voltage shouldn't damage the > > alternator. This is not a thing to do unless you are willing to risk > > damaging your alternator which is another good argument for junk-yard > > alternators. There is a lot written on the internet on alternator > > welders on the off road/ 4wd sites but many of their designs get quite > > complex and are over-kill in my opinion. Brent's design is quite > > simple. Nevertheless, I would recommend finding models of alternators > > used before from the net that are known to take the abuse. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > Matt Malone wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a > >> steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle > >> without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single > >> alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will > >> not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its > >> frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will > >> give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators > >> in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the > >> batteries absorb the spikes. > >> > >> Matt > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23599|23585|2010-07-12 05:09:25|Denis Buggy|Re: weldernator|OF ALL BOATS AN ORGAMI DEPENDS ON THE WELDING OF THE EGG TO KEEP IT STRONG . WELDING WITH YOUR SISTERS HAIRDRYER OR YOUR SPITTING AND FARTING GRANNY'S KNITTING NEEDLES IS NOT THE WAY TO GO . DENIS BUGGY ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 9:25 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the batteries absorb the spikes. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 09:11:29 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > You need at least 1000 rpm to get full output out of an alternator. You > should be getting plenty of rpm based on your pulley sizes if you are > running at 2800 rpm. > > I would try a little more field current. My 100 Amp alternator will take > 10 amps through the field and I can put it direct to 12 volts without a > problem. This is just my alternator, yours may be different, so be > careful. I would try another bulb in parallel with the 60 watt headlamp > bulb. You can step up it up a bit using 12 volt 10 watt bulbs and see > how it goes. > > Cheers, Paul > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > I wonder to what the max current one can draw through the field coil > > with the 60watt bulb i'm only drawing 3-4 amps doubling that should > > theoretically double the welding current as well shouldn't it, but I > > also don't want to melt anything. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "theboilerflue" > > wrote: > > > > > > Well I got my welder-alternator working, used a DENSO 121000-4040 > > 12v 120amp alternator, 12v 60watt headlamp bulb to charge the field > > coil, and a 120v 100watt halogen bulb shorting the stinger to ground > > to absorb the spikes. The alternator or bolted to the floor next to > > the engine and I tension the belt with a turn buckle. It worked right > > off the bat, but is a little cold needs maybe another 5 amps or so > > judging from the look of the weld plus it's a little hard to start. So > > I'm figuring I'm going to need to speed up the alternator a bit. PTO > > has a 4" pulley and the alternator has a 3" I think I'll try a smaller > > alternator sheave first to see if that helps, if I could go form 3" to > > 1.5" that should be the equivalent of going to a 8" on the engine, and > > will be much easier than trying to find a larger one to attach to the > > engine. I just don't know if I'll be able to find a 1.5" pulley, if > > that is a common enough size? Engine is running at about 2800 rpm. I > > don't have the updated version of your book Brent, was wondering if > > either of those bulbs are too small or too big? > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > __________________________________________________________ MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23600|23585|2010-07-12 09:42:56|Matt Malone|Re: weldernator|Absolutely right Denis. A welding alternator setup is great for off-road vehicles to do emergency repairs. I hope no one is putting one of these together to make the hull. However, at sea, having an extra alternator (or 3) on your engine sounds well worth the extra weight. If the alternator from your engine is of a suitable type, the spare might be your weldernator -- keep the regulator and diodes from the original unit to replace them to turn it back into an alternator. I might be tempted to carry 3 -- the alternator on the engine, the weldernator, and a spare sealed in plastic to serve as either. However, for my off-grid property, I am considering building a 3-alternator unit. Welding is just such a handy ability, and with 3 un-modified alternators, it is also a terrific emergency charger for house batteries (when the solar and wind turbine fall behind). This forum is great. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: buggy@... Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:09:07 +0100 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator OF ALL BOATS AN ORGAMI DEPENDS ON THE WELDING OF THE EGG TO KEEP IT STRONG . WELDING WITH YOUR SISTERS HAIRDRYER OR YOUR SPITTING AND FARTING GRANNY'S KNITTING NEEDLES IS NOT THE WAY TO GO . DENIS BUGGY ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 9:25 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the batteries absorb the spikes. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 09:11:29 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > You need at least 1000 rpm to get full output out of an alternator. You > should be getting plenty of rpm based on your pulley sizes if you are > running at 2800 rpm. > > I would try a little more field current. My 100 Amp alternator will take > 10 amps through the field and I can put it direct to 12 volts without a > problem. This is just my alternator, yours may be different, so be > careful. I would try another bulb in parallel with the 60 watt headlamp > bulb. You can step up it up a bit using 12 volt 10 watt bulbs and see > how it goes. > > Cheers, Paul > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > I wonder to what the max current one can draw through the field coil > > with the 60watt bulb i'm only drawing 3-4 amps doubling that should > > theoretically double the welding current as well shouldn't it, but I > > also don't want to melt anything. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "theboilerflue" > > wrote: > > > > > > Well I got my welder-alternator working, used a DENSO 121000-4040 > > 12v 120amp alternator, 12v 60watt headlamp bulb to charge the field > > coil, and a 120v 100watt halogen bulb shorting the stinger to ground > > to absorb the spikes. The alternator or bolted to the floor next to > > the engine and I tension the belt with a turn buckle. It worked right > > off the bat, but is a little cold needs maybe another 5 amps or so > > judging from the look of the weld plus it's a little hard to start. So > > I'm figuring I'm going to need to speed up the alternator a bit. PTO > > has a 4" pulley and the alternator has a 3" I think I'll try a smaller > > alternator sheave first to see if that helps, if I could go form 3" to > > 1.5" that should be the equivalent of going to a 8" on the engine, and > > will be much easier than trying to find a larger one to attach to the > > engine. I just don't know if I'll be able to find a 1.5" pulley, if > > that is a common enough size? Engine is running at about 2800 rpm. I > > don't have the updated version of your book Brent, was wondering if > > either of those bulbs are too small or too big? > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > __________________________________________________________ MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23601|23585|2010-07-12 12:14:51|theboilerflue|Re: weldernator|thanks for the ratio I was curious about that and was thinking of taking one apart to count the windings. And so that means I need maybe a level of about 8-10 amps to weld with 3/32" rod (DC right?). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Most alternator do about 10 to 1, output voltage to field voltage. Thus it is fairly simple to up the output voltage of an alternator. However for safeties sake you will want to make sure your open circuit voltage does not rise to high. > > In any event, as has already been mentioned, there are plenty of Internet sights covering the use of an alternator for a welder. Some of these guys are very creative to say the least. I only suggest verifying safety on your own. That is mainly an issue of open circuit voltage. > > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jul 11, 2010, at 6:08 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > Matt, it is a future project for me and I haven't actually done it with > > my alternator but I do understand how it all works. You don't need to > > do as you say to get high voltage. In the alternator welder, the > > output is disconnected from the batteries and the regulator bypassed so > > the voltage climbs high with the input amps to the field current from > > the 12 volt bulb. The 120 volt bulb on the output limits the voltage to > > a point where the spikes and high voltage shouldn't damage the > > alternator. This is not a thing to do unless you are willing to risk > > damaging your alternator which is another good argument for junk-yard > > alternators. There is a lot written on the internet on alternator > > welders on the off road/ 4wd sites but many of their designs get quite > > complex and are over-kill in my opinion. Brent's design is quite > > simple. Nevertheless, I would recommend finding models of alternators > > used before from the net that are known to take the abuse. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > Matt Malone wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a > >> steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle > >> without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single > >> alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will > >> not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its > >> frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will > >> give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators > >> in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the > >> batteries absorb the spikes. > >> > >> Matt > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 23602|23585|2010-07-12 12:22:18|theboilerflue|Re: weldernator|Well with this alternator I didn't have to do any modifications on it and if I had to use it to charge my batteries I could rig up a simple rheostat regulator (which is what most internet sources recommend instead of a headlamp bulb) Even on most alternators the regulator is just soldered to the brush holder and would be pretty easy to bypass/re-attach. But as far as building a boat with it, I think it's a great idea, just start with the engine bolt it direct to some angle and you could just extend the sterntube and weld it to these engine mounts, then you could build the skeg right to it then you can get rid of the five gallon buckets that has been holding your coolant till this point, the rest'd be easy just might require a crane a few times and you'd just pull the boat up around the engine..... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > Absolutely right Denis. A welding alternator setup is great for off-road vehicles to do emergency repairs. I hope no one is putting one of these together to make the hull. However, at sea, having an extra alternator (or 3) on your engine sounds well worth the extra weight. If the alternator from your engine is of a suitable type, the spare might be your weldernator -- keep the regulator and diodes from the original unit to replace them to turn it back into an alternator. I might be tempted to carry 3 -- the alternator on the engine, the weldernator, and a spare sealed in plastic to serve as either. > > > > However, for my off-grid property, I am considering building a 3-alternator unit. Welding is just such a handy ability, and with 3 un-modified alternators, it is also a terrific emergency charger for house batteries (when the solar and wind turbine fall behind). > > > > This forum is great. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: buggy@... > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:09:07 +0100 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > > > > > OF ALL BOATS AN ORGAMI DEPENDS ON THE WELDING OF THE EGG TO KEEP IT STRONG . > WELDING WITH YOUR SISTERS HAIRDRYER OR YOUR SPITTING AND FARTING GRANNY'S KNITTING NEEDLES IS NOT THE WAY TO GO . DENIS BUGGY > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Matt Malone > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 9:25 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the batteries absorb the spikes. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: opusnz@... > > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 09:11:29 +1200 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > > > You need at least 1000 rpm to get full output out of an alternator. You > > should be getting plenty of rpm based on your pulley sizes if you are > > running at 2800 rpm. > > > > I would try a little more field current. My 100 Amp alternator will take > > 10 amps through the field and I can put it direct to 12 volts without a > > problem. This is just my alternator, yours may be different, so be > > careful. I would try another bulb in parallel with the 60 watt headlamp > > bulb. You can step up it up a bit using 12 volt 10 watt bulbs and see > > how it goes. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > I wonder to what the max current one can draw through the field coil > > > with the 60watt bulb i'm only drawing 3-4 amps doubling that should > > > theoretically double the welding current as well shouldn't it, but I > > > also don't want to melt anything. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "theboilerflue" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Well I got my welder-alternator working, used a DENSO 121000-4040 > > > 12v 120amp alternator, 12v 60watt headlamp bulb to charge the field > > > coil, and a 120v 100watt halogen bulb shorting the stinger to ground > > > to absorb the spikes. The alternator or bolted to the floor next to > > > the engine and I tension the belt with a turn buckle. It worked right > > > off the bat, but is a little cold needs maybe another 5 amps or so > > > judging from the look of the weld plus it's a little hard to start. So > > > I'm figuring I'm going to need to speed up the alternator a bit. PTO > > > has a 4" pulley and the alternator has a 3" I think I'll try a smaller > > > alternator sheave first to see if that helps, if I could go form 3" to > > > 1.5" that should be the equivalent of going to a 8" on the engine, and > > > will be much easier than trying to find a larger one to attach to the > > > engine. I just don't know if I'll be able to find a 1.5" pulley, if > > > that is a common enough size? Engine is running at about 2800 rpm. I > > > don't have the updated version of your book Brent, was wondering if > > > either of those bulbs are too small or too big? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23603|23585|2010-07-12 18:08:34|brentswain38|Re: weldernator|I find the field windings get weak after a couple of years . Feeding them more juice will simply make them burn out more quickly. Go for more RPMs . Mine didn't work well on the six inch engine pulley, too cold , until I switched it to a 9 inch one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I wonder to what the max current one can draw through the field coil with the 60watt bulb i'm only drawing 3-4 amps doubling that should theoretically double the welding current as well shouldn't it, but I also don't want to melt anything. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Well I got my welder-alternator working, used a DENSO 121000-4040 12v 120amp alternator, 12v 60watt headlamp bulb to charge the field coil, and a 120v 100watt halogen bulb shorting the stinger to ground to absorb the spikes. The alternator or bolted to the floor next to the engine and I tension the belt with a turn buckle. It worked right off the bat, but is a little cold needs maybe another 5 amps or so judging from the look of the weld plus it's a little hard to start. So I'm figuring I'm going to need to speed up the alternator a bit. PTO has a 4" pulley and the alternator has a 3" I think I'll try a smaller alternator sheave first to see if that helps, if I could go form 3" to 1.5" that should be the equivalent of going to a 8" on the engine, and will be much easier than trying to find a larger one to attach to the engine. I just don't know if I'll be able to find a 1.5" pulley, if that is a common enough size? Engine is running at about 2800 rpm. I don't have the updated version of your book Brent, was wondering if either of those bulbs are too small or too big? > > > | 23604|23585|2010-07-12 18:09:12|brentswain38|Re: weldernator|Bulbs are about right , but my engine is about the same RPM as yours and I had to go for a 9 inch pulley on the engine to get her hot enough. The first alternator welder I had was a commercially built one with a 3800 RPM Robin gas engine and a 9 inch pulley on that, so it was super fast. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Well I got my welder-alternator working, used a DENSO 121000-4040 12v 120amp alternator, 12v 60watt headlamp bulb to charge the field coil, and a 120v 100watt halogen bulb shorting the stinger to ground to absorb the spikes. The alternator or bolted to the floor next to the engine and I tension the belt with a turn buckle. It worked right off the bat, but is a little cold needs maybe another 5 amps or so judging from the look of the weld plus it's a little hard to start. So I'm figuring I'm going to need to speed up the alternator a bit. PTO has a 4" pulley and the alternator has a 3" I think I'll try a smaller alternator sheave first to see if that helps, if I could go form 3" to 1.5" that should be the equivalent of going to a 8" on the engine, and will be much easier than trying to find a larger one to attach to the engine. I just don't know if I'll be able to find a 1.5" pulley, if that is a common enough size? Engine is running at about 2800 rpm. I don't have the updated version of your book Brent, was wondering if either of those bulbs are too small or too big? > | 23605|23590|2010-07-12 18:19:59|brentswain38|Re: BS 36 Twin Keel|Yes, you have it right, but an extra inch inside will give you more to attach your webs to. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai" wrote: > > Brent > > I want to confirm that my twin Keels will be sticking out 34 inches for and aft with 2 inches inside. > Aaron > | 23606|23585|2010-07-12 18:24:28|brentswain38|Re: weldernator|My big square dodge alternator , 100 amps, from the auto wreckers, puts out enough to power my 125 volt angle grinder, slightly slower than a wall plug, but the difference is barely noticeable. It's the smoothest DC welder I've ever used. Burns 1/8th 6011 no problem when it is new, now its a little cool after several years,but still does 3/32 fine. . I carry a spare if I need to do any 6011 welding. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Right, the high voltage is open circuit and drops as soon as you strike > an arc so it is pretty crude. There are lots of people using single > alternators but it is all smaller rod stuff so high amps, high duty > cycle would be too much to ask for as you say. For a simple, > emergency welding system, it is hard to beat, and relatively easy to rig > up. > > Paul > > Matt Malone wrote: > > OK, if you are messing with the internals first, sure an alternator can put out 90 Volts maybe, but you are not getting 120 Amps at that voltage. Torque times RPM (radians per second actually) is power, and Volts times Amps is power. The electrical power out output by the alternator has to be less than the mechanical power into the alternator. The difference is the heat generated within the alternator. So if your modified alternator puts out 35 Volts and 120 Amps, then it has to be putting about 3 times as much torque-load on the engine and is dissipating at least 3 times as much heat inside the alternator. More likely, it is putting out about 40 Amps, or it is producing enough back-torque on the motor to slow it down, dropping the voltage for that reason. > > > > I would sooner run 3 alternators, within specifications, with batteries, and have something that is more reliable, at least until the salt corrosion attacks the alternators. There is another side-benefit of a battery system. For your one-alternator, no battery system, its 100% duty cycle capacity is equal to the output of the alternator. With batteries however, the 20% duty cycle for instance is 5 times the capacity of your alternators. So, for instance, 3 small, cheap 40 Amp alternators give you a 120 Amp welder with 33% duty cycle. If you want to do something structural with 4mm rods, that need 175 Amps, you can -- the batteries supply the high current for short bursts, the alternators catch up when you stop to change rods, chip slag, etc. > > > > Still it would be cool to see what messing with the internals of a single alternator can do, and the lifetime of the system you get. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: opusnz@... > > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:08:16 +1200 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, it is a future project for me and I haven't actually done it with > > > > my alternator but I do understand how it all works. You don't need to > > > > do as you say to get high voltage. In the alternator welder, the > > > > output is disconnected from the batteries and the regulator bypassed so > > > > the voltage climbs high with the input amps to the field current from > > > > the 12 volt bulb. The 120 volt bulb on the output limits the voltage to > > > > a point where the spikes and high voltage shouldn't damage the > > > > alternator. This is not a thing to do unless you are willing to risk > > > > damaging your alternator which is another good argument for junk-yard > > > > alternators. There is a lot written on the internet on alternator > > > > welders on the off road/ 4wd sites but many of their designs get quite > > > > complex and are over-kill in my opinion. Brent's design is quite > > > > simple. Nevertheless, I would recommend finding models of alternators > > > > used before from the net that are known to take the abuse. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a > >> > > > > > >> steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle > >> > > > > > >> without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single > >> > > > > > >> alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will > >> > > > > > >> not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its > >> > > > > > >> frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will > >> > > > > > >> give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators > >> > > > > > >> in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the > >> > > > > > >> batteries absorb the spikes. > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Matt > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 23607|23585|2010-07-12 18:32:53|brentswain38|Re: weldernator|Most use a plug in buzzbox for the hull welds . The alternator welder is for detailing and after thoughts, often done while cruising. A Miller roughneck industrial welder is simply a big alternator, as are most engine driven welders. Plug in power is a fraction the cost of any engine driven welder.I once tacked together a 40 ft hull, flush decks and keel for an electrician. He then read the meter and told me in that 21 days we had used $15 worth of power. Then he hired some pulp mill welders who insisted on engine driven welders. Each one of them consumed $15 a day worth of gas, back in 1980. Engine driven welders are far more expensive , both to buy and to run. Use a plug in whenever you can, for shell building. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > OF ALL BOATS AN ORGAMI DEPENDS ON THE WELDING OF THE EGG TO KEEP IT STRONG . > WELDING WITH YOUR SISTERS HAIRDRYER OR YOUR SPITTING AND FARTING GRANNY'S KNITTING NEEDLES IS NOT THE WAY TO GO . DENIS BUGGY > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Matt Malone > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 9:25 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > > > > > You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the batteries absorb the spikes. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: opusnz@... > > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 09:11:29 +1200 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > > > You need at least 1000 rpm to get full output out of an alternator. You > > should be getting plenty of rpm based on your pulley sizes if you are > > running at 2800 rpm. > > > > I would try a little more field current. My 100 Amp alternator will take > > 10 amps through the field and I can put it direct to 12 volts without a > > problem. This is just my alternator, yours may be different, so be > > careful. I would try another bulb in parallel with the 60 watt headlamp > > bulb. You can step up it up a bit using 12 volt 10 watt bulbs and see > > how it goes. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > I wonder to what the max current one can draw through the field coil > > > with the 60watt bulb i'm only drawing 3-4 amps doubling that should > > > theoretically double the welding current as well shouldn't it, but I > > > also don't want to melt anything. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "theboilerflue" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Well I got my welder-alternator working, used a DENSO 121000-4040 > > > 12v 120amp alternator, 12v 60watt headlamp bulb to charge the field > > > coil, and a 120v 100watt halogen bulb shorting the stinger to ground > > > to absorb the spikes. The alternator or bolted to the floor next to > > > the engine and I tension the belt with a turn buckle. It worked right > > > off the bat, but is a little cold needs maybe another 5 amps or so > > > judging from the look of the weld plus it's a little hard to start. So > > > I'm figuring I'm going to need to speed up the alternator a bit. PTO > > > has a 4" pulley and the alternator has a 3" I think I'll try a smaller > > > alternator sheave first to see if that helps, if I could go form 3" to > > > 1.5" that should be the equivalent of going to a 8" on the engine, and > > > will be much easier than trying to find a larger one to attach to the > > > engine. I just don't know if I'll be able to find a 1.5" pulley, if > > > that is a common enough size? Engine is running at about 2800 rpm. I > > > don't have the updated version of your book Brent, was wondering if > > > either of those bulbs are too small or too big? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23608|23585|2010-07-12 18:40:48|brentswain38|Re: weldernator|A wooden boat builder wouldn't go to sea without his woodworking tools so why should a steel boat builder go to sea without a welder, when it's so simple and cheap? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > Absolutely right Denis. A welding alternator setup is great for off-road vehicles to do emergency repairs. I hope no one is putting one of these together to make the hull. However, at sea, having an extra alternator (or 3) on your engine sounds well worth the extra weight. If the alternator from your engine is of a suitable type, the spare might be your weldernator -- keep the regulator and diodes from the original unit to replace them to turn it back into an alternator. I might be tempted to carry 3 -- the alternator on the engine, the weldernator, and a spare sealed in plastic to serve as either. > > > > However, for my off-grid property, I am considering building a 3-alternator unit. Welding is just such a handy ability, and with 3 un-modified alternators, it is also a terrific emergency charger for house batteries (when the solar and wind turbine fall behind). > > > > This forum is great. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: buggy@... > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:09:07 +0100 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > > > > > OF ALL BOATS AN ORGAMI DEPENDS ON THE WELDING OF THE EGG TO KEEP IT STRONG . > WELDING WITH YOUR SISTERS HAIRDRYER OR YOUR SPITTING AND FARTING GRANNY'S KNITTING NEEDLES IS NOT THE WAY TO GO . DENIS BUGGY > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Matt Malone > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 9:25 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the batteries absorb the spikes. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: opusnz@... > > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 09:11:29 +1200 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator > > > > You need at least 1000 rpm to get full output out of an alternator. You > > should be getting plenty of rpm based on your pulley sizes if you are > > running at 2800 rpm. > > > > I would try a little more field current. My 100 Amp alternator will take > > 10 amps through the field and I can put it direct to 12 volts without a > > problem. This is just my alternator, yours may be different, so be > > careful. I would try another bulb in parallel with the 60 watt headlamp > > bulb. You can step up it up a bit using 12 volt 10 watt bulbs and see > > how it goes. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > I wonder to what the max current one can draw through the field coil > > > with the 60watt bulb i'm only drawing 3-4 amps doubling that should > > > theoretically double the welding current as well shouldn't it, but I > > > also don't want to melt anything. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "theboilerflue" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Well I got my welder-alternator working, used a DENSO 121000-4040 > > > 12v 120amp alternator, 12v 60watt headlamp bulb to charge the field > > > coil, and a 120v 100watt halogen bulb shorting the stinger to ground > > > to absorb the spikes. The alternator or bolted to the floor next to > > > the engine and I tension the belt with a turn buckle. It worked right > > > off the bat, but is a little cold needs maybe another 5 amps or so > > > judging from the look of the weld plus it's a little hard to start. So > > > I'm figuring I'm going to need to speed up the alternator a bit. PTO > > > has a 4" pulley and the alternator has a 3" I think I'll try a smaller > > > alternator sheave first to see if that helps, if I could go form 3" to > > > 1.5" that should be the equivalent of going to a 8" on the engine, and > > > will be much easier than trying to find a larger one to attach to the > > > engine. I just don't know if I'll be able to find a 1.5" pulley, if > > > that is a common enough size? Engine is running at about 2800 rpm. I > > > don't have the updated version of your book Brent, was wondering if > > > either of those bulbs are too small or too big? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23609|23585|2010-07-13 00:15:49|David Frantz|Re: weldernator|In this sense an alternator welder is very much in an off road vehicle when mounted in a ship. Very very far off road. As you pointed out such welders can run fine, they are just expensive to run. Being mostly DIY there is a wide range of quality, but that is always the case with DIY. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 12, 2010, at 6:32 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > A wooden boat builder wouldn't go to sea without his woodworking tools so why should a steel boat builder go to sea without a welder, when it's so simple and cheap? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Absolutely right Denis. A welding alternator setup is great for off-road vehicles to do emergency repairs. I hope no one is putting one of these together to make the hull. However, at sea, having an extra alternator (or 3) on your engine sounds well worth the extra weight. If the alternator from your engine is of a suitable type, the spare might be your weldernator -- keep the regulator and diodes from the original unit to replace them to turn it back into an alternator. I might be tempted to carry 3 -- the alternator on the engine, the weldernator, and a spare sealed in plastic to serve as either. >> >> >> >> However, for my off-grid property, I am considering building a 3-alternator unit. Welding is just such a handy ability, and with 3 un-modified alternators, it is also a terrific emergency charger for house batteries (when the solar and wind turbine fall behind). >> >> >> >> This forum is great. >> >> >> >> Matt >> >> >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: buggy@... >> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:09:07 +0100 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator >> >> >> >> >> >> OF ALL BOATS AN ORGAMI DEPENDS ON THE WELDING OF THE EGG TO KEEP IT STRONG . >> WELDING WITH YOUR SISTERS HAIRDRYER OR YOUR SPITTING AND FARTING GRANNY'S KNITTING NEEDLES IS NOT THE WAY TO GO . DENIS BUGGY >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Matt Malone >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 9:25 PM >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator >> >> You need 35 Volts to weld well. It takes 14 volts or so to make a steady arc. Less than that and it is like trying to balance a bicycle without moving forward very fast -- very hard to do. A single alternator is just enough, but at 14-15 Volts open circuit, it will not produce maximum current. A second alternator in series -- with its frame insulated from the frame of the first one, (no batteries) will give 28-30V and you will see a marked improvement. Three alternators in series, with 3 batteries, is best. You get 39+Volts, and the batteries absorb the spikes. >> >> Matt >> >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: opusnz@... >>> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 09:11:29 +1200 >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: weldernator >>> >>> You need at least 1000 rpm to get full output out of an alternator. You >>> should be getting plenty of rpm based on your pulley sizes if you are >>> running at 2800 rpm. >>> >>> I would try a little more field current. My 100 Amp alternator will take >>> 10 amps through the field and I can put it direct to 12 volts without a >>> problem. This is just my alternator, yours may be different, so be >>> careful. I would try another bulb in parallel with the 60 watt headlamp >>> bulb. You can step up it up a bit using 12 volt 10 watt bulbs and see >>> how it goes. >>> >>> Cheers, Paul >>> >>> >>> theboilerflue wrote: >>>> >>>> I wonder to what the max current one can draw through the field coil >>>> with the 60watt bulb i'm only drawing 3-4 amps doubling that should >>>> theoretically double the welding current as well shouldn't it, but I >>>> also don't want to melt anything. >>>> >>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> , "theboilerflue" >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well I got my welder-alternator working, used a DENSO 121000-4040 >>>> 12v 120amp alternator, 12v 60watt headlamp bulb to charge the field >>>> coil, and a 120v 100watt halogen bulb shorting the stinger to ground >>>> to absorb the spikes. The alternator or bolted to the floor next to >>>> the engine and I tension the belt with a turn buckle. It worked right >>>> off the bat, but is a little cold needs maybe another 5 amps or so >>>> judging from the look of the weld plus it's a little hard to start. So >>>> I'm figuring I'm going to need to speed up the alternator a bit. PTO >>>> has a 4" pulley and the alternator has a 3" I think I'll try a smaller >>>> alternator sheave first to see if that helps, if I could go form 3" to >>>> 1.5" that should be the equivalent of going to a 8" on the engine, and >>>> will be much easier than trying to find a larger one to attach to the >>>> engine. I just don't know if I'll be able to find a 1.5" pulley, if >>>> that is a common enough size? Engine is running at about 2800 rpm. I >>>> don't have the updated version of your book Brent, was wondering if >>>> either of those bulbs are too small or too big? >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384 >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384 >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23610|23610|2010-07-13 09:20:48|BrdbMc@aol.com|(no subject)|http://zp21scdo2ok.cilyamwi.com| 23611|23611|2010-07-13 16:47:14|q243w5|parts for dickinson pacific diesel stove|hello, I'm in the process of converting my dickinson to wood burning and consequentially I have the diesel components available for sale. -6" burner pot -carburetor -fan motor -speed control these parts are new as the I purchased the stove from someone who had never fired it up. to purchase these parts, they would cost around $550 CAD.....I'm open to reasonable offers. email me for photos and info. robin hume p.s. I'm not always near an internet connection but I will respond to all inquiries within a few days.| 23612|23612|2010-07-15 00:15:39|Daniel|Origami boat|I forget to mention to the respected members of this group, that I am a naval architect and use to be shipbuilder, now just in my old age a boat builder. Cheers Daniel| 23614|23614|2010-07-15 00:17:16|Daniel|A very nice welcome|I received a very nice welcoming message, thank you. As a naval architect, I have to be cautius about this sentence: "Welcome to the group! This fast-growing group is devoted to sharing information about the art of frameless steel boatbuilding" It is not an art, and yes sharing information will be necessary. These boat will be put in a very hostiles condition, good and prooven design of all the element are necessary. But I am interrested to see the extent of the frameless possibility. Cheers Daniel| 23615|23613|2010-07-15 00:35:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hull construction|On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:06:23PM -0000, Daniel wrote: > I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not > suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering > design. [laugh] Welcome to the group, Daniel. You'll fit right in. Perhaps you should consider the fact that Brent's boats have been sailed across oceans in every kind of weather, have been run up on reefs with minimal to no damage, and have generally stood the test of time and salt water. I realize that you have beliefs that you treasure - > The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit > safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. - but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic statements. > It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23616|23613|2010-07-15 06:46:20|Daniel Skira|Re: Hull construction|Hi Ben, Thank you for your post.   I quote you: " but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic statements. I agree with you, and I do what you say for a leaving, it's call naval architecture. Nothing dogmatic, just plain and simple calculation and good design, controled design. And yes I examine the evidence, only the real evidence.   I quote you: "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas.   Of course its not perfect, but very close too. You should know that if you are a naval architect.  I just know what is working for a long period of time, and mostly I know that I decide the shape, I don't let a piece of steel decided for me. I never saw a line drawing with all the necessary calculation and the proof that the piece of steel on the floor is the same as the line drawing. I saw only one construction  drawing, and honnestly I will never built a boat with this kind of engineering. And how you know yourself that it is the best way to design and built a boat? Do you have some concrete evidence, or it is just what say Brent? You are right to question me, but also question everybody. It is good to be suspicious, and on that I agree to look at thousand of yacht going around the world. You should do the same, it is interresting. A  good debate is always proof of the good health of a group! Cheers Daniel   --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 12:35 AM On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:06:23PM -0000, Daniel wrote: > I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not > suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering > design. [laugh] Welcome to the group, Daniel. You'll fit right in. Perhaps you should consider the fact that Brent's boats have been sailed across oceans in every kind of weather, have been run up on reefs with minimal to no damage, and have generally stood the test of time and salt water. I realize that you have beliefs that you treasure - > The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit > safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. - but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic statements. > It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. --                        OKOPNIK CONSULTING         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming                443-250-7895    http://okopnik.com ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23617|23613|2010-07-15 07:45:54|CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: Hull construction|It´s great to have a NA on the group. Where / what style of NA are you, and where did you graduate from ? As You said so yourself, I hope you can share with us. I agree with Ben O´s posts, btw. The Brent designs are very sturdy, stronger than necessary, and do not need the other option of building, which, as you said are stringers, gussets etc. I build cnc machines, and have an understanding of steel bending loads, moments and ways to stiffen and/or preload structures. IMO, Brent boats are a good (well proven, btw) way of buildng a strong safe structure. The longitudinal strength does not necessarily need to come from stringers, just as a roof on a house does not necessarily need to be supported by horizontals beams under it. I built an amusement park (last year) by making the roof carry the load (no beams underneath). Technically, it´s a torsion box, with the load-bearing element being the flat plywood sheets on top. (A grid of 2x4, with two layers of plywood on top, independently cross screwed every 130 mm with 100 mm 6,5 mm screws). To break, the plywood layers (2 of 13 mm each) would have to rip against about 200 screws/sheet, x 2 layers). It carries upto 500 kg, 5 m in the air, and is approved by an a degreed engineer/architect, and also the UK health and sefaty amusement parks people who inspected it. It´s a boat, just flat. Grin. (I built it with the 3x/10x safety factors required for supporting people in lifting/underneath/height requirements. No calculations were necessary, when adequate safety margin was present). Cheers, hannu| 23618|23613|2010-07-15 07:54:18|David Frantz|Re: Hull construction|Your rejection of this method of ship assembly reminds me of the attitude expressed by many when the auto industry started to move to unit body construction. Many negative and baseless things where said about the lack of a frame that simply didn't hold up when the designs where put to the test. I personally experienced the benefit in a Jeep Cherokee, the engine and transmission may have been junk but the frame was nice and stiff. As to Origami boats I can't say what engineering went into the hulls as I have not discussed it with anybody nor do I have access to the prints. I do however have enough practical experience with metal construction to realize the technique has merit. A fully modeled design might be very interesting to see but I seriously doubt you have enough computer time to model every dynamic the ocean can throw at a ship. However if you are qualified to do naval engineer and can model the structurals then please do! Show us where the faults are. Frankly if you have the technical skills and software it is now possible to do such engineering on a PC, something not practical twenty years ago. You seem to be of the mold that if something was done a certain way twenty or fifty years ago it must be the only way to do something today. That frankly is BS. Much of the design of steel boats have carried over from wood boats of the past. Not because that was the best way to use the materials but simply because it required minimal effort. All I'm saying is that you obviously came to this forum with a closed mind. So instead of looking for an argument that no one here wants take your skills and analyze the designs structural soundness. In other words add to the forum instead of creating trouble. After all you say you are qualified to do so. As a side note please explain all the well engineered ships that have sunk this year or last year. Many events send ships to see Davey Jones. We live in a in perfect world that is never free of risk. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Daniel Skira wrote: > Hi Ben, > Thank you for your post. > > I quote you: > " but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > statements. > > I agree with you, and I do what you say for a leaving, it's call naval architecture. > Nothing dogmatic, just plain and simple calculation and good design, controled design. > And yes I examine the evidence, only the real evidence. > > I quote you: > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > > Of course its not perfect, but very close too. You should know that if you are a naval architect. I just know what is working for a long period of time, and mostly I know that I decide the shape, I don't let a piece of steel decided for me. > I never saw a line drawing with all the necessary calculation and the proof that the piece of steel on the floor is the same as the line drawing. > I saw only one construction drawing, and honnestly I will never built a boat with this kind of engineering. > And how you know yourself that it is the best way to design and built a boat? > Do you have some concrete evidence, or it is just what say Brent? > You are right to question me, but also question everybody. > It is good to be suspicious, and on that I agree to look at thousand of yacht going around the world. > You should do the same, it is interresting. > A good debate is always proof of the good health of a group! > Cheers > Daniel > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > From: Ben Okopnik > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 12:35 AM > > > On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:06:23PM -0000, Daniel wrote: >> I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not >> suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering >> design. > > [laugh] Welcome to the group, Daniel. You'll fit right in. > > Perhaps you should consider the fact that Brent's boats have been sailed > across oceans in every kind of weather, have been run up on reefs with > minimal to no damage, and have generally stood the test of time and salt > water. I realize that you have beliefs that you treasure - > >> The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit >> safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > - but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > statements. > >> It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23619|23613|2010-07-15 09:12:20|Daniel Skira|Re: Hull construction|Hi Hannu, 1968 Bruxelle. The type who design ship, vessel and boat, made of steel, wood, concrete and  fiberglass, depending the customer and the use of the vessel. The type who design fishing vessel, utility boat, cargo ship, yacht, and racing boat, motor and sail. What ever float the fancy of my customers. Had a shipyard in Spain for more than twenty years, and an design office in New-York I am member of the SNAME, and the RINA Now I am by mysel in Maine, living a quiet life with my dear wife, and I have two grown kids living in Spain. I am  building a boat for my own pleasure and still designing for few customers. I still sailing the wounderfull water of the North Atlantic What ever you built a house or the roof, it as absolutly no relation with a boat. A house do not move. A house do not have a metacentric to be respected, a house do not have a weight distribution to trim ratio to be respected, a house do not have a floodable length curve, nor a transverse satbility curve, nor a weight to support relation calculation, nor a acceleration period, nor a roll period, and the list is so long, so I just stop here. And as far as I know an amusement park is not a boat eather, but can be more fun, I admit. Congratulation for you very thourough calculation for your project. But thank you for sharing your experience. I apreciate. Juts one question, I quote you:   "No calculations were necessary, when adequate safety margin was present"   How you know that without caculations? quite bizarre no? How you know what is a safety margin? You born with?   I quote you:   "IMO, Brent boats are a good (well proven, btw) way of buildng a strong safe structure."   How you know that? I never been able to have any proof, not any drawing of them. I saw just one section which was a bad engeneering by all account. Cheers Daniel signs wrote: From: CNC 6-axis Designs Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 7:44 AM It´s great to have a NA on the group. Where / what style of NA are you, and where did you graduate from ? As You said so yourself, I hope you can share with us. I agree with Ben O´s posts, btw. The Brent designs are very sturdy, stronger than necessary, and do not need the other option of building, which, as you said are stringers, gussets etc. I build cnc machines, and have an understanding of steel bending loads, moments and ways to stiffen and/or preload structures. IMO, Brent boats are a good (well proven, btw) way of buildng a strong safe structure. The longitudinal strength does not necessarily need to come from stringers, just as a roof on a house does not necessarily need to be supported by horizontals beams under it. I built an amusement park (last year) by making the roof carry the load (no beams underneath). Technically, it´s a torsion box, with the load-bearing element being the flat plywood sheets on top. (A grid of 2x4, with two layers of plywood on top, independently cross screwed every 130 mm with 100 mm 6,5 mm screws). To break, the plywood layers (2 of 13 mm each) would have to rip against about 200 screws/sheet, x 2 layers). It carries upto 500 kg, 5 m in the air, and is approved by an a degreed engineer/architect, and also the UK health and sefaty amusement parks people who inspected it. It´s a boat, just flat. Grin. (I built it with the 3x/10x safety factors required for supporting people in lifting/underneath/height requirements. No calculations were necessary, when adequate safety margin was present). Cheers, hannu ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23620|23613|2010-07-15 09:23:14|Daniel Skira|Re: Hull construction|Hi David, Sorry but your post is quite of topic, typical cult response. Be more accurate, boat oriented and on topic before rambling. I let you be the owner of this post. And if you intent to built a Brent boat, have the plans examined. If debate is trouble, you should revise your presence on a group or forum. Cheers Daniel --- On Thu, 7/15/10, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 7:53 AM Your rejection of this method of ship assembly reminds me of the attitude expressed by many when the auto industry started to move to unit body construction.  Many negative and baseless things where said about the lack of a frame that simply didn't hold up when the designs where put to the test.  I personally experienced the benefit in a Jeep Cherokee, the engine and transmission may have been junk but the frame was nice and stiff.    As to Origami boats I can't say what engineering went into the hulls as I have not discussed it with anybody nor do I have access to the prints.   I do however have enough practical experience with metal construction to realize the technique has merit.   A fully modeled design might be very interesting to see but I seriously doubt you have enough computer time to model every dynamic the ocean can throw at a ship.    However if you are qualified to do naval engineer and can model the structurals then please do! Show us where the faults are.    Frankly if you have the technical skills and software it is now possible to do such engineering on a PC, something not practical twenty years ago.  You seem to be of the mold that if something was done a certain way twenty or fifty years ago it must be the only way to do something today.    That frankly is BS.   Much of the design of steel boats have carried over from wood boats of the past.    Not because that was the best way to use the materials but simply because it required minimal effort.   All I'm saying is that you obviously came to this forum with a closed mind.    So instead of looking for an argument that no one here wants take your skills and analyze the designs structural soundness.   In other words add to the forum instead of creating trouble.    After all you say you are qualified to do so.    As a side note please explain all the well engineered ships that have sunk this year or last year.    Many events send ships to see Davey Jones.   We live in a in perfect world that is never free of risk.  David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Daniel Skira wrote: > Hi Ben, > Thank you for your post. >  > I quote you: > " but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > statements. > > I agree with you, and I do what you say for a leaving, it's call naval architecture. > Nothing dogmatic, just plain and simple calculation and good design, controled design. > And yes I examine the evidence, only the real evidence. >  > I quote you: > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. >  > Of course its not perfect, but very close too. You should know that if you are a naval architect.  I just know what is working for a long period of time, and mostly I know that I decide the shape, I don't let a piece of steel decided for me. > I never saw a line drawing with all the necessary calculation and the proof that the piece of steel on the floor is the same as the line drawing. > I saw only one construction  drawing, and honnestly I will never built a boat with this kind of engineering. > And how you know yourself that it is the best way to design and built a boat? > Do you have some concrete evidence, or it is just what say Brent? > You are right to question me, but also question everybody. > It is good to be suspicious, and on that I agree to look at thousand of yacht going around the world. > You should do the same, it is interresting. > A  good debate is always proof of the good health of a group! > Cheers > Daniel >  > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > From: Ben Okopnik > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 12:35 AM > > > On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:06:23PM -0000, Daniel wrote: >> I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not >> suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering >> design. > > [laugh] Welcome to the group, Daniel. You'll fit right in. > > Perhaps you should consider the fact that Brent's boats have been sailed > across oceans in every kind of weather, have been run up on reefs with > minimal to no damage, and have generally stood the test of time and salt > water. I realize that you have beliefs that you treasure - > >> The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit >> safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > - but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > statements. > >> It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > > > -- >                        OKOPNIK CONSULTING >         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming >                443-250-7895    http://okopnik.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23621|23621|2010-07-15 10:12:45|SHANE ROTHWELL|Origami Boats|Hi Daniel, I would love to see the results of taking anything you may have built, or designed and putting it on a beach with an 8' surf and leaving it there for a day as the tide comes in & out a coupla times. All the details I do not have, but Brent, and the owner of the boat that got caught there will fill in the details - I think it was in the Baha area of Mexico. How about ramming a steel barge at 8 knott's - and didn't the guy also have an 8 knott tide up the arse as well for a combined total of a 16 knott impact.....? Ever wonder at the success - and comparative safety - of the volkswagen beatle? ever scuba dive, taking a raw egg with you to feed the little fishes? I hope you have a strong constitution mate, as what you are about to learn about will open your eyes, and hopefully cause you to have an honest look at a lot of the bullshit and dogma you were taugh as a younger man, probably took to heart and practiced your whole working life...... You may be facing one of the more painful educations experiened to date amongst this group, as you see sir, the emporer, in fact, does not have any clothes. At the same time, you may have something of value to offer. I hope so. Trial by fire? Perhaps. At least it won't be boring. Oh ya, welcome to the group! Shane 1. Origami boat Posted by: "Daniel" dskira@... dskira Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:15 pm (PDT) I forget to mention to the respected members of this group, that I am a naval architect and use to be shipbuilder, now just in my old age a boat builder. Cheers Daniel| 23622|23613|2010-07-15 10:25:51|Tom Mann|Re: Hull construction|Hello Daniel Welcome to the forum My recomendation here is take a look at the photo album. You can see pic's of them being built from the ground up. There are some finished ones there too with bulkheads and partial bulkheads. To make a fair assumption on the overall strength of the boat in question this needs to be looked at also. From what I have seen most folks that build these have there own idea's of what they want and when finished there is a lot more to it than a open shell with no extra support ? I'm just a welder myself. Your welcome to take a look at my photo album tom's BS 26. Lot of construction photo's there. I'm open for a debate of whats wrong with it, I'm thick skinned so have at it . Tom PS FYI there is a lines drawing on the 26 On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Daniel wrote: > I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not > suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering design. > The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit safely > the load from the ballast to the shroud. > It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > Cheers > Daniel > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23623|23613|2010-07-15 11:02:37|Norm Moore|Re: Hull construction|Some (many?) here may take exception but IMO it is important to think of "origami" as a frameless construction method that dramatically reduces the labor of assembling a hull. The finished hull has to be strong regardless of what method is used to construct it, but why cut and fit an elaborate series of transverse frames and laboriously fit individual plates and fair the longitudinal framing to the hull, if you can just cut 3 hull plates to "form" the finished shape you want. In conventional assembly the transverse frames establish the "shape" of the hull and the hull plates are then cut to "fit" it. In origami construction the shape of the hull is determined by the pattern of the hull plates and the longitudinal framing is attached initially and is "along for the ride" as the hull is formed requiring no fairing. Except where the chines meet the unchined hull sections (fore and aft), the hull plate is "formed" below it's elastic limit, held in tension at the welded seams. (For me it required a different perspective of viewing the hull "normal" to the plate rather than perpendicular to centerline like in a lines drawing.) The faster, easier method of assembly yields an equally strong hull. Frameless assembly doesn't really mean a frameless hull. These boats are actually "reinforced monocoque" structures, with longitudinal and local framing used to spread out point loads. The strength issue has been discussed extensively here and in particularly in some articles dealing with this subject in the Fall 1996 issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly, which I have placed in the files section for you to read. In particular, Gary Noble Curtis (a bridge engineer) discusses designing an origami boat (Noble 451) to meet the old ABS rules for offshore racing yachts. His design scantlings have some specific differences with Brent's design, (heavier longitudinal framing, heavier local transverse reinforcement of the keel to hull joint, and two wooden transverse bulkheads placed along the hull's length instead of those multiple steel frames). Brent can give you some actual real world examples of his boats hitting solid objects at 8 knots, being washed onto beaches and pounded by the surf etc. all with little or no damage to anything besides paint. These boats are in fact quite tough. It helps to think of them as pre-stressed tensile structures; when they hit an object the hull plate is free to flex inward "relieving" their normal tension, after which they can bounce back just like a spring. Extensive steel transverse framing prevents this from happening, so the hull gets "sheared" between the imoveable object and the frame. Which would you rather have, a dent from exceeding the elastic limit of the hull steel or a hole where the hull was sheared through at the frame? I know which real world stress I'd rather deal with. Norm Moore 559-645-5314 ________________________________ From: Daniel To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, July 14, 2010 4:06:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Hull construction I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering design. The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. Cheers Daniel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23624|23613|2010-07-15 11:24:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hull construction|On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 03:46:17AM -0700, Daniel Skira wrote: > Hi Ben, > Thank you for your post. >   > I quote you: > " but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > statements. > > I agree with you, and I do what you say for a leaving, it's call naval architecture. > Nothing dogmatic, just plain and simple calculation and good design, controled design. Unfortunately, the fact that you say so doesn't make it so. "Dogmatic" refers to the mindset of the person doing the design, not naval architecture itself - so describing naval architecture as "proof" that it's not dogmatic is meaningless in that context. The mindset you've shown, however, *is* dogmatic: you've made strong statements, without any proof, about Brent's designs being essentially worthless. > And yes I examine the evidence, only the real evidence. Really? The word "evidence" means "that which is seen" - not imagined or calculated or read about. Given that: what evidence have you examined? Have you actually built a compound curved shape and tested it? Have you looked at the fact that many of Brent's boats are crossing oceans, safely? Have you met any of the builders and examined their boats? Please don't tell me that you've examined the evidence when you clearly haven't. This may sound a little harsh, but what you've been doing is reviewing your prejudices - the things that you "know" from years of repeating them. Your methods may work - but that does not mean that they're the only methods that work. Please don't confuse the fact that you know *a* way to do something with knowing *all* ways to do it. > I saw only one construction >  drawing, and honnestly I will never built a boat with this kind of > engineering. And from that one drawing, you've decided that this design is worthless? Daniel, I'm not an NA - but I can certainly tell you that I would _never_ hire an NA that showed this kind of closed-mindedness. A lot of new things have come into the profession since the 1950s, but your beliefs appear to ignore all of them. Good luck with that attitude; I doubt that you'll find much support for it here. > A  good debate is always proof of the good health of a group! That depends on the debate. We used to have a fellow here who insisted that building a boat at all was stupid - we should all buy houses, then do some magic tricks with a bank, and then we'd have enough money to buy a boat and sail forever. That "debate" contributed nothing, and the guy isn't here any more. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23625|23625|2010-07-15 12:04:31|Donal|Design and rig ideas-old and new|Here are a couple of slide shows from Setsail of old and new, a feast of ideas: http://setsail.com/moonbeam-lv-slide-show/ http://setsail.com/open-60-details-slide-show/ My joy is seeing where the practical is also made beautiful. donal| 23626|23613|2010-07-15 13:10:41|martin demers|Re: Hull construction|a real artist doesn't need calculation.. he is born with it..! Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: dskira@... Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:12:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction Hi Hannu, 1968 Bruxelle. The type who design ship, vessel and boat, made of steel, wood, concrete and fiberglass, depending the customer and the use of the vessel. The type who design fishing vessel, utility boat, cargo ship, yacht, and racing boat, motor and sail. What ever float the fancy of my customers. Had a shipyard in Spain for more than twenty years, and an design office in New-York I am member of the SNAME, and the RINA Now I am by mysel in Maine, living a quiet life with my dear wife, and I have two grown kids living in Spain. I am building a boat for my own pleasure and still designing for few customers. I still sailing the wounderfull water of the North Atlantic What ever you built a house or the roof, it as absolutly no relation with a boat. A house do not move. A house do not have a metacentric to be respected, a house do not have a weight distribution to trim ratio to be respected, a house do not have a floodable length curve, nor a transverse satbility curve, nor a weight to support relation calculation, nor a acceleration period, nor a roll period, and the list is so long, so I just stop here. And as far as I know an amusement park is not a boat eather, but can be more fun, I admit. Congratulation for you very thourough calculation for your project. But thank you for sharing your experience. I apreciate. Juts one question, I quote you: "No calculations were necessary, when adequate safety margin was present" How you know that without caculations? quite bizarre no? How you know what is a safety margin? You born with? I quote you: "IMO, Brent boats are a good (well proven, btw) way of buildng a strong safe structure." How you know that? I never been able to have any proof, not any drawing of them. I saw just one section which was a bad engeneering by all account. Cheers Daniel signs wrote: From: CNC 6-axis Designs Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 7:44 AM It�s great to have a NA on the group. Where / what style of NA are you, and where did you graduate from ? As You said so yourself, I hope you can share with us. I agree with Ben O�s posts, btw. The Brent designs are very sturdy, stronger than necessary, and do not need the other option of building, which, as you said are stringers, gussets etc. I build cnc machines, and have an understanding of steel bending loads, moments and ways to stiffen and/or preload structures. IMO, Brent boats are a good (well proven, btw) way of buildng a strong safe structure. The longitudinal strength does not necessarily need to come from stringers, just as a roof on a house does not necessarily need to be supported by horizontals beams under it. I built an amusement park (last year) by making the roof carry the load (no beams underneath). Technically, it�s a torsion box, with the load-bearing element being the flat plywood sheets on top. (A grid of 2x4, with two layers of plywood on top, independently cross screwed every 130 mm with 100 mm 6,5 mm screws). To break, the plywood layers (2 of 13 mm each) would have to rip against about 200 screws/sheet, x 2 layers). It carries upto 500 kg, 5 m in the air, and is approved by an a degreed engineer/architect, and also the UK health and sefaty amusement parks people who inspected it. It�s a boat, just flat. Grin. (I built it with the 3x/10x safety factors required for supporting people in lifting/underneath/height requirements. No calculations were necessary, when adequate safety margin was present). Cheers, hannu ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Jeux Messenger : mettez vos amis au d�fi! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734397 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23627|23613|2010-07-15 13:59:06|Mark Hamill|Re: Hull construction|Daniel I think is trying to pull the collective chain. But he's also like sombody on a runway at an airport telling you that the planes flying cannot possibly be flying because "I know that they cannot". The instant I read his first post I knew what was to follow. You just have to ignore the guy. MarkH| 23628|23613|2010-07-15 14:28:20|theboilerflue|Re: Hull construction|> That depends on the debate. We used to have a fellow here who insisted > that building a boat at all was stupid - we should all buy houses, then > do some magic tricks with a bank, and then we'd have enough money to buy > a boat and sail forever. That "debate" contributed nothing, and the guy > isn't here any more. > Did he end up getting a boat or was this before the bottom fell out of the real estate market, (there's a place where more transverse framing would have been handy)| 23629|23613|2010-07-15 14:40:31|theboilerflue|Re: Hull construction|>   > Of course its not perfect, but very close too. You should know that if you are a naval architect.  You know scientists have been claiming things like that for a very long time, it's never really been true, there have and probably always will be new developments that will always be restructuring scientific theories. I don't see how someone could make a statement about the golden age of designing boats when we still aren't really sure what makes wind over the sails propeller the boat forward, although we once thought we did I believe they de-bunked that theory just after you finished school and the scientific community hasn't settled on anything concrete in the last forty so years. Certainly nowhere near perfection anyway.| 23630|23613|2010-07-15 14:49:10|CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: Hull construction|On 15.7.2010 19:10, martin demers wrote: > a real artist doesn't need calculation.. > > he is born with it..! > > > > Martin > > > How you know that without caculations? quite bizarre no? > How you know what is a safety margin? You born with? > > Daniel - Not at all. Good engineering practice is to start with minimum possible strength of material when the real material is "unknown" ie uncertified. Applies to load carrying beams, non-certified wood products etc. Ie there is a given strength for wood, say fir plywood. If the plywood has, say, a strength of between 1. - 3.0 depending on quality, and it is not a "qualified" beam, use 1.0 Apply a correction factor, like 0.9. Using the value of 0.9 means that every plywood will be at least 0.9 x (units). There are std formulas that do the same, common in house load carrying beams, mechnanical engineeering, and fasteners. In many cases, it is much easier and cheaper to just make it "strong enough" rather than try to make it right by theoretical means. Vertical wood beams of 160x160 mm cross-section are typically used to carry loads of several tons (construction, houses). When the needed total strength is 5 tons (with a 10x safety factor, used in lifts, where there is "mortal danger" or more than 3 m unsupported fall in this case), 4 posts will actually have a real failure rate around 20 tons (or quiet a bit higher, as the side structure was also load bearing). The beams (4 of) were about 120€ each. Using a smaller beam was silly ... as proving that a given beam is strong enough, or calculating the load (cannot be done without testing equipment or a load-certified, usually composite glued construction) wood would have been several thousands of €. So, by spending maybe 100€ extra on strong-enough, I got an "A" from the certifying society and did not need to use load-rated beams at about 500 € each. The guy who came to check the paperwork and construction was actually impressed. And he used to be a mining engineer, and in mines they have an excellent and time-proven appreciation for the load-bearing capacities of wood posts. I could have used solidworks and flamingo FEM model (I have access to these), but, and here is the but, it would not have proven that the structure was actually safe ! Only that if the given materials were perfect, and the application was as stated then the results were as given. In mechnical engineering we use time-tested formulas and application examples, which are standard formulas often simplified for real world use. These come from the Machinery´s Handbook. Architecture is similar (and so is electrical engineeering). There exist the formulas, not normally used, and std specs, usually used for everything. Thus we know, for example, that to use 2.5 sq mm wiring will allow us to use std appliances with it, upto 3 kW. And then use 16 amp GFIs for these wires. No caculation is necessary, and every inspector will pass it (some details apply, like nr of outlets etc). In naval engineeering, a lot of the tables and rules are exactly the same. There is the formula (for whichever classification society we use at the time), and then there s a short-cut such as use n mm spacing and x mm height for the longitudinals, when the vessel is less than 16 m in length. But You know all that, right ? What the point about the Brent boats is, that there are lots of ways to get strength. And the old-style longs/stringers/gussets, which is usually quite unnecessarily heavy in small craft, is by no means the only way. But You know all that as well, right ? Cheers, Hannu| 23631|23613|2010-07-15 14:56:18|theboilerflue|Re: Hull construction|What is it about the origami process that you find isn't strong enough? do you think these boats will tear them selves apart or collapse on themselves I'd love to see some calculations (along with bit of an explanation of them, I'm no NA) I fail to see the weak points between the keels, the mast and the chain plates, it's a couple big triangles supported by 3x3x1/4 angle, 1/2 plate and 3" schedule 40 pipe. One should be able to pick the boat up from any of the chain plates on these boats, if I had to I would hesitate to do so. I suspect you don't actually know what you're talking about, I don't mean as a engineer, but that you need to have a good look at a frameless origami boat, it's plans, ect... So what do you need to look at?| 23632|23613|2010-07-15 15:17:58|theboilerflue|Re: Hull construction|>be able to pick the boat up from any of the chain plates on these >boats, if I had to I would hesitate to do so. I meant I would not hesitate to do so| 23633|23613|2010-07-15 15:23:28|steve|Re: Hull construction for trollers|Haidan , I recently learned a bit about the concept of on-line Trolls. I had heard the term before but hadn't realised that 'trolling' is kind of a discipline in its own right. I met someone who did an anthropological study of 'trolls' for a university course. I am not sure of the origin of the word 'troll' in this use , ie is it like trolling for a reaction (like fishing) or is it like the troll under the bridge that causes grief to innocent travellers. Seems like a combination. I'm sure you are well aware of this. There are probably some people who are unconsciously trolling , too. Kind of a personality thing. Lots to know about personality disorders. I have been waiting for welds to pop and hull seams to split on my boat for 16 yrs now , offshore and onshore (that's onshore :granite at 5 -6 knots. Another summer trip 'ricocheting around' the BC coast). You might have experienced the smash of seas against the flat areas below the chines , sounds like logs hitting the boat. Three weeks of work to go for me. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > What is it about the origami process that you find isn't strong enough? do you think these boats will tear them selves apart or collapse on themselves I'd love to see some calculations (along with bit of an explanation of them, I'm no NA) I fail to see the weak points between the keels, the mast and the chain plates, it's a couple big triangles supported by 3x3x1/4 angle, 1/2 plate and 3" schedule 40 pipe. One should be able to pick the boat up from any of the chain plates on these boats, if I had to I would hesitate to do so. > I suspect you don't actually know what you're talking about, I don't mean as a engineer, but that you need to have a good look at a frameless origami boat, it's plans, ect... > So what do you need to look at? > | 23634|23613|2010-07-15 16:02:59|lachica31|Re: Hull construction|Hi Guys, I suggest that you just ignore this chap. He is either just proof that apparently some dinosaur fossils can regain life of some form or he is just a Troll. Most likely just a Troll. While making claims to be an NA, he does not give his name, degree or what companies he has owned or was employed by net alone some examples of what he designed that are out there sailing. It is a basic tenant of the scientific would that you backup your statements with reference and establish your creditability. This guy has done none of these things. And if he has done big ships, it does not count because small boats are a very different kettle of fish. It is also note worthy that to every email that he has responded to, he has actually never replied to the points made. Just responded by repeating another version of that waffle that he originally posted. I severed an apprenticeship as a yacht designer and have worked as a professional yacht builder. I never met a designer that exhibited the closed mind that these post exhibit. So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption. We all have far to much boat building to do. The clock is ticking (your life) and the water is as welcoming as ever. Don't wast time on crap of this nature. Regards, Paul Thompson --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" wrote: > > I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering design. > The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > Cheers > Daniel > | 23635|23613|2010-07-15 16:22:28|Paul Wilson|Re: Hull construction|>>>>>I suggest that you just ignore this chap. But he looked at one drawing of a Brent boat and from that, determined that the engineering and technique was no good.....doesn't that make him an expert? It's like saying the movie "2001: A Space Odyssey" is all about monkeys throwing bones. Paul| 23636|23613|2010-07-15 16:48:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hull construction|On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 10:58:16AM -0700, Mark Hamill wrote: > Daniel I think is trying to pull the collective chain. But he's also like > sombody on a runway at an airport telling you that the planes flying cannot > possibly be flying because "I know that they cannot". The instant I read his > first post I knew what was to follow. You just have to ignore the guy. MarkH Heh. On USENET, people used to just follow up with "DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS" to that kind of posts. I was still giving Daniel the benefit of the doubt, but it's about over. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23637|23613|2010-07-15 16:57:21|lachica31|Re: Hull construction|Nah,just proof the theirs nothing wrong with his ego, is able to generate plenty of hot air (could be useful in Canada but I believe that it is the wrong time of the year...... here in NZ thought....). Either the above or just maybe proof that extra sensory perception does exist. I have my doubts. Paul Thompson --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > >>>>>I suggest that you just ignore this chap. > > But he looked at one drawing of a Brent boat and from that, determined > that the engineering and technique was no good.....doesn't that make him > an expert? It's like saying the movie "2001: A Space Odyssey" is all > about monkeys throwing bones. > > Paul > | 23638|23613|2010-07-15 17:20:01|brentswain38|Re: Hull construction for trollers|The 'Experts "have been predicting origami boats would simply fall apart the first time they hit anything, from the day I built the first one. A lot of hard rocks ,coral reefs, lee shores in big surf, steel hulls etc etc have been hit at hull speed and beyond since then. Hasn't happened in the last 30 years , but the sky just might fall yet, so better get your "Sky falling insurance" just in case. Meanwhile how many "approved" hulls have had structural failures since then? According to the math, by the top mathematicians of her time, the Titanic was "unsinkable." The fact that she sank was just an anecdote (fact). Math over rules such anecdotes ( facts ) every time. She couldn't possibly have sunk, according to the math. So the sinking of the Titanic "Never happened " according to the math. You can put a hydraulic jack under the tank top-hull joint and lift the hull from that one point, without deforming it in any noticeable way, even with 50 of your friends aboard ( for those who have 50 friends) Its stronger than the centreline. Kinda dumb to suggest that which as proven itself far more than the majority of boats out there "Won't work" --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > > Haidan , > > I recently learned a bit about the concept of on-line Trolls. I had heard the term before but hadn't realised that 'trolling' is kind of a discipline in its own right. I met someone who did an anthropological study of 'trolls' for a university course. I am not sure of the origin of the word 'troll' in this use , ie is it like trolling for a reaction (like fishing) or is it like the troll under the bridge that causes grief to innocent travellers. Seems like a combination. > I'm sure you are well aware of this. > > There are probably some people who are unconsciously trolling , too. Kind of a personality thing. Lots to know about personality disorders. > > I have been waiting for welds to pop and hull seams to split on my boat for 16 yrs now , offshore and onshore (that's onshore :granite at 5 -6 knots. Another summer trip 'ricocheting around' the BC coast). > > You might have experienced the smash of seas against the flat areas below the chines , sounds like logs hitting the boat. > > Three weeks of work to go for me. > > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > What is it about the origami process that you find isn't strong enough? do you think these boats will tear them selves apart or collapse on themselves I'd love to see some calculations (along with bit of an explanation of them, I'm no NA) I fail to see the weak points between the keels, the mast and the chain plates, it's a couple big triangles supported by 3x3x1/4 angle, 1/2 plate and 3" schedule 40 pipe. One should be able to pick the boat up from any of the chain plates on these boats, if I had to I would hesitate to do so. > > I suspect you don't actually know what you're talking about, I don't mean as a engineer, but that you need to have a good look at a frameless origami boat, it's plans, ect... > > So what do you need to look at? > > > | 23639|23613|2010-07-15 17:25:33|brentswain38|Re: Hull construction|Your cult is the cult of "Nothing has been improved in the last 100 years" as your design shows. That kind of thinking would have stopped the advancement of anything in the stone age, if we had listened to it. No progress has ever been made by ultra conservative thinkers. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > Hi David, > Sorry but your post is quite of topic, typical cult response. > Be more accurate, boat oriented and on topic before rambling. > I let you be the owner of this post. > And if you intent to built a Brent boat, have the plans examined. > If debate is trouble, you should revise your presence on a group or forum. > Cheers > Daniel > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 7:53 AM > > > Your rejection of this method of ship assembly reminds me of the attitude expressed by many when the auto industry started to move to unit body construction.  Many negative and baseless things where said about the lack of a frame that simply didn't hold up when the designs where put to the test.  I personally experienced the benefit in a Jeep Cherokee, the engine and transmission may have been junk but the frame was nice and stiff.    > > As to Origami boats I can't say what engineering went into the hulls as I have not discussed it with anybody nor do I have access to the prints.   I do however have enough practical experience with metal construction to realize the technique has merit.   A fully modeled design might be very interesting to see but I seriously doubt you have enough computer time to model every dynamic the ocean can throw at a ship.    However if you are qualified to do naval engineer and can model the structurals then please do! Show us where the faults are.    Frankly if you have the technical skills and software it is now possible to do such engineering on a PC, something not practical twenty years ago.  > > You seem to be of the mold that if something was done a certain way twenty or fifty years ago it must be the only way to do something today.    That frankly is BS.   Much of the design of steel boats have carried over from wood boats of the past.    Not because that was the best way to use the materials but simply because it required minimal effort.   All I'm saying is that you obviously came to this forum with a closed mind.    > > So instead of looking for an argument that no one here wants take your skills and analyze the designs structural soundness.   In other words add to the forum instead of creating trouble.    After all you say you are qualified to do so.    > > As a side note please explain all the well engineered ships that have sunk this year or last year.    Many events send ships to see Davey Jones.   We live in a in perfect world that is never free of risk.  > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jul 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Daniel Skira wrote: > > > Hi Ben, > > Thank you for your post. > >  > > I quote you: > > " but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > > statements. > > > > I agree with you, and I do what you say for a leaving, it's call naval architecture. > > Nothing dogmatic, just plain and simple calculation and good design, controled design. > > And yes I examine the evidence, only the real evidence. > >  > > I quote you: > > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > >  > > Of course its not perfect, but very close too. You should know that if you are a naval architect.  I just know what is working for a long period of time, and mostly I know that I decide the shape, I don't let a piece of steel decided for me. > > I never saw a line drawing with all the necessary calculation and the proof that the piece of steel on the floor is the same as the line drawing. > > I saw only one construction  drawing, and honnestly I will never built a boat with this kind of engineering. > > And how you know yourself that it is the best way to design and built a boat? > > Do you have some concrete evidence, or it is just what say Brent? > > You are right to question me, but also question everybody. > > It is good to be suspicious, and on that I agree to look at thousand of yacht going around the world. > > You should do the same, it is interresting. > > A  good debate is always proof of the good health of a group! > > Cheers > > Daniel > >  > > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 12:35 AM > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:06:23PM -0000, Daniel wrote: > >> I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not > >> suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering > >> design. > > > > [laugh] Welcome to the group, Daniel. You'll fit right in. > > > > Perhaps you should consider the fact that Brent's boats have been sailed > > across oceans in every kind of weather, have been run up on reefs with > > minimal to no damage, and have generally stood the test of time and salt > > water. I realize that you have beliefs that you treasure - > > > >> The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit > >> safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > > > - but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > > statements. > > > >> It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > > > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > > > > > > -- > >                        OKOPNIK CONSULTING > >         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > >                443-250-7895    http://okopnik.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23640|23613|2010-07-15 17:25:48|Matt Malone|Re: Hull construction|Daniel, As an engineer, I can appreciate your desire for calculations. As an engineer however, I know that calculations, with complex geometries, and loadings, either become astronomically complex, or become approximate and only go so far. Unless you are willing to do a dynamic finite element / finite difference analysis of the boat and the water outside it, interacting, which for a small boat in even moderate seas could be very dynamic, at some point you make some large estimations or approximations that history has shown are safe and good. The material steel is so strong compared to the materials fibreglass and wood and so much heavier, that it leads to thin shells in boats. Buckling, becomes the major issue, both local inter-rib/stringer buckling, and overall buckling of the design. These are some of the most difficult phenomena to predict, and nearly impossible to estimate for a general 3-d curved shape without some major computation. It would be my guess at least some of your long career, you were designing boats when there was, by modern standards, insufficient computational power available to you to do that. So you made decisions based on experience, rules of thumb, and such empirical and frankly mythical constructions as a metacentric, or floodable length curve that, when "respected", seemed to keep boats from sinking. Sorry, when there are computers, I no longer respect such empirical and approximate methods, particularly not to attack another design. One fact remains with steel: Designs that are thick enough so they are stiff enough to avoid bucking have tremendous membrane strengths. Combined with a "boat" shape, it is pretty hard to get it wrong, if it is stiff enough not to buckle. (I would guess that fin and skeg rudders, and twin keels --"projections" that tend to concentrate loads -- are areas where it is easier to mess it up.) Also, for small boats, the minimum thickness of steel sheet that an amateur can weld well, tends to be pretty thick for the length of the boat. This is the reason that thicker aluminum sheet is better for smaller boats. In the end, no business that produces things for others to use can afford to calculate everything, or anticipate everything, so they buy insurance. I hope Brent has some insurance as a designer. I have observed that Brent Swain Orgami boats have been made and sailed successfully for some time. Though this does not invalidate your years of doing it differently, nothing you say has invalidated the fact that the method appears to work. I am waiting for that fully 3D, dynamic finite element structural analysis, in concert with a free surface hydrodynamics program, for arbitrary hull shapes, in a single package. And yes, I would like it all to run on my next generation Ipad during a coffee break. Until it does, and is sufficiently validated, everyone is using experience to build boats to some extent, not just calculations. I submit, if your career as a naval architect was long, at one time you used a lot of experience, and only a few calculations to design a boat. You may have deluded yourself into believing that you really did have a full computational handle on boat design back then. I hope by now after seeing what real computational tools are beginning to do, you can see that your previous "calculations" are like the pretty geometric constructions and figures drawn by designers of cathedrals hundreds of years ago -- in complete ignorance of the most basic structural concepts such as Young's Modulus. I hope, having seen what computer simulation can do, and what it still cannot do (in less than a computational-lifetime), we should all realize just how little we formerly formally knew about building boats, yet we did build boats, and still build boats, based on experience. I think it has been established that Brent Swain and his designs now have some experience. Perhaps you would like to build a BS orgami boat and put some strain gauges on the inside, sail it for a while and find and then explain, specifically what the problem is. A carefully designed experiment would provide evidence of some hidden problem that experience has yet to reveal. If you think you can find the specific problems without experiments, would you please at least be perfectly clear in your analysis and identification of the problems so others benefit. As for the plans, drawings etc. I believe Brent *SELLS* those, just like you did as a naval architect, so I would not expect to see the full set of drawings on-line. Unless you are trying to goad someone into giving them to you for free... Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: dskira@... Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:12:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction Hi Hannu, 1968 Bruxelle. The type who design ship, vessel and boat, made of steel, wood, concrete and fiberglass, depending the customer and the use of the vessel. The type who design fishing vessel, utility boat, cargo ship, yacht, and racing boat, motor and sail. What ever float the fancy of my customers. Had a shipyard in Spain for more than twenty years, and an design office in New-York I am member of the SNAME, and the RINA Now I am by mysel in Maine, living a quiet life with my dear wife, and I have two grown kids living in Spain. I am building a boat for my own pleasure and still designing for few customers. I still sailing the wounderfull water of the North Atlantic What ever you built a house or the roof, it as absolutly no relation with a boat. A house do not move. A house do not have a metacentric to be respected, a house do not have a weight distribution to trim ratio to be respected, a house do not have a floodable length curve, nor a transverse satbility curve, nor a weight to support relation calculation, nor a acceleration period, nor a roll period, and the list is so long, so I just stop here. And as far as I know an amusement park is not a boat eather, but can be more fun, I admit. Congratulation for you very thourough calculation for your project. But thank you for sharing your experience. I apreciate. Juts one question, I quote you: "No calculations were necessary, when adequate safety margin was present" How you know that without caculations? quite bizarre no? How you know what is a safety margin? You born with? I quote you: "IMO, Brent boats are a good (well proven, btw) way of buildng a strong safe structure." How you know that? I never been able to have any proof, not any drawing of them. I saw just one section which was a bad engeneering by all account. Cheers Daniel signs wrote: From: CNC 6-axis Designs Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 7:44 AM It�s great to have a NA on the group. Where / what style of NA are you, and where did you graduate from ? As You said so yourself, I hope you can share with us. I agree with Ben O�s posts, btw. The Brent designs are very sturdy, stronger than necessary, and do not need the other option of building, which, as you said are stringers, gussets etc. I build cnc machines, and have an understanding of steel bending loads, moments and ways to stiffen and/or preload structures. IMO, Brent boats are a good (well proven, btw) way of buildng a strong safe structure. The longitudinal strength does not necessarily need to come from stringers, just as a roof on a house does not necessarily need to be supported by horizontals beams under it. I built an amusement park (last year) by making the roof carry the load (no beams underneath). Technically, it�s a torsion box, with the load-bearing element being the flat plywood sheets on top. (A grid of 2x4, with two layers of plywood on top, independently cross screwed every 130 mm with 100 mm 6,5 mm screws). To break, the plywood layers (2 of 13 mm each) would have to rip against about 200 screws/sheet, x 2 layers). It carries upto 500 kg, 5 m in the air, and is approved by an a degreed engineer/architect, and also the UK health and sefaty amusement parks people who inspected it. It�s a boat, just flat. Grin. (I built it with the 3x/10x safety factors required for supporting people in lifting/underneath/height requirements. No calculations were necessary, when adequate safety margin was present). Cheers, hannu ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23641|23613|2010-07-15 17:33:26|brentswain38|Re: Hull construction for trollers|On another site, Daniel declared that all who aspire to get off the treadmill and go cruising are "Parasites and sponges". It reminds me of the time in the 80's, during the cold war, when I hitched a ride with a guy who's truck was hand painted army green, with red stars painted all over it . He told me "The individual must serve the system " was a direct quote from the communist manifesto. So now we know where Daniel is coming from. His stated goal was to keep people on the treadmill "Serving the system" with as much disinformation as he can sell the gullible. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > > Haidan , > > I recently learned a bit about the concept of on-line Trolls. I had heard the term before but hadn't realised that 'trolling' is kind of a discipline in its own right. I met someone who did an anthropological study of 'trolls' for a university course. I am not sure of the origin of the word 'troll' in this use , ie is it like trolling for a reaction (like fishing) or is it like the troll under the bridge that causes grief to innocent travellers. Seems like a combination. > I'm sure you are well aware of this. > > There are probably some people who are unconsciously trolling , too. Kind of a personality thing. Lots to know about personality disorders. > > I have been waiting for welds to pop and hull seams to split on my boat for 16 yrs now , offshore and onshore (that's onshore :granite at 5 -6 knots. Another summer trip 'ricocheting around' the BC coast). > > You might have experienced the smash of seas against the flat areas below the chines , sounds like logs hitting the boat. > > Three weeks of work to go for me. > > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > What is it about the origami process that you find isn't strong enough? do you think these boats will tear them selves apart or collapse on themselves I'd love to see some calculations (along with bit of an explanation of them, I'm no NA) I fail to see the weak points between the keels, the mast and the chain plates, it's a couple big triangles supported by 3x3x1/4 angle, 1/2 plate and 3" schedule 40 pipe. One should be able to pick the boat up from any of the chain plates on these boats, if I had to I would hesitate to do so. > > I suspect you don't actually know what you're talking about, I don't mean as a engineer, but that you need to have a good look at a frameless origami boat, it's plans, ect... > > So what do you need to look at? > > > | 23642|23613|2010-07-15 17:39:00|brentswain38|Re: Hull construction|He got laughed of another site he tried the same stuff with. Consider him entertainment, only. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > I suggest that you just ignore this chap. He is either just proof that apparently some dinosaur fossils can regain life of some form or he is just a Troll. Most likely just a Troll. > > While making claims to be an NA, he does not give his name, degree or what companies he has owned or was employed by net alone some examples of what he designed that are out there sailing. It is a basic tenant of the scientific would that you backup your statements with reference and establish your creditability. This guy has done none of these things. And if he has done big ships, it does not count because small boats are a very different kettle of fish. > > It is also note worthy that to every email that he has responded to, he has actually never replied to the points made. Just responded by repeating another version of that waffle that he originally posted. > > I severed an apprenticeship as a yacht designer and have worked as a professional yacht builder. I never met a designer that exhibited the closed mind that these post exhibit. > > So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption. > > We all have far to much boat building to do. The clock is ticking (your life) and the water is as welcoming as ever. Don't wast time on crap of this nature. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" wrote: > > > > I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering design. > > The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > Cheers > > Daniel > > > | 23643|23613|2010-07-15 17:48:29|brentswain38|Re: Hull construction|16 days pounding in 8 to 12 ft surf on a Baja lee shore is a pretty good structural analysis, as is pounding in big surf across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef, T boning a steel barge at 8 knots, a single season passage thru the NW passage, pounding to for six days on a rocky lee shore in the med, and 30 years of offshore cruising in all conditions, without a single structural failure at sea, are far better and more relevant series of structural analysis than any mathematical calculations.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Daniel, > > > > As an engineer, I can appreciate your desire for calculations. As an engineer however, I know that calculations, with complex geometries, and loadings, either become astronomically complex, or become approximate and only go so far. Unless you are willing to do a dynamic finite element / finite difference analysis of the boat and the water outside it, interacting, which for a small boat in even moderate seas could be very dynamic, at some point you make some large estimations or approximations that history has shown are safe and good. > > > > The material steel is so strong compared to the materials fibreglass and wood and so much heavier, that it leads to thin shells in boats. Buckling, becomes the major issue, both local inter-rib/stringer buckling, and overall buckling of the design. These are some of the most difficult phenomena to predict, and nearly impossible to estimate for a general 3-d curved shape without some major computation. It would be my guess at least some of your long career, you were designing boats when there was, by modern standards, insufficient computational power available to you to do that. > > > So you made decisions based on experience, rules of thumb, and such empirical and frankly mythical constructions as a metacentric, or floodable length curve that, when "respected", seemed to keep boats from sinking. Sorry, when there are computers, I no longer respect such empirical and approximate methods, particularly not to attack another design. > > > > One fact remains with steel: Designs that are thick enough so they are stiff enough to avoid bucking have tremendous membrane strengths. Combined with a "boat" shape, it is pretty hard to get it wrong, if it is stiff enough not to buckle. (I would guess that fin and skeg rudders, and twin keels --"projections" that tend to concentrate loads -- are areas where it is easier to mess it up.) Also, for small boats, the minimum thickness of steel sheet that an amateur can weld well, tends to be pretty thick for the length of the boat. This is the reason that thicker aluminum sheet is better for smaller boats. In the end, no business that produces things for others to use can afford to calculate everything, or anticipate everything, so they buy insurance. I hope Brent has some insurance as a designer. > > > > I have observed that Brent Swain Orgami boats have been made and sailed successfully for some time. Though this does not invalidate your years of doing it differently, nothing you say has invalidated the fact that the method appears to work. I am waiting for that fully 3D, dynamic finite element structural analysis, in concert with a free surface hydrodynamics program, for arbitrary hull shapes, in a single package. And yes, I would like it all to run on my next generation Ipad during a coffee break. Until it does, and is sufficiently validated, everyone is using experience to build boats to some extent, not just calculations. > > > > I submit, if your career as a naval architect was long, at one time you used a lot of experience, and only a few calculations to design a boat. You may have deluded yourself into believing that you really did have a full computational handle on boat design back then. I hope by now after seeing what real computational tools are beginning to do, you can see that your previous "calculations" are like the pretty geometric constructions and figures drawn by designers of cathedrals hundreds of years ago -- in complete ignorance of the most basic structural concepts such as Young's Modulus. I hope, having seen what computer simulation can do, and what it still cannot do (in less than a computational-lifetime), we should all realize just how little we formerly formally knew about building boats, yet we did build boats, and still build boats, based on experience. > > > > I think it has been established that Brent Swain and his designs now have some experience. Perhaps you would like to build a BS orgami boat and put some strain gauges on the inside, sail it for a while and find and then explain, specifically what the problem is. A carefully designed experiment would provide evidence of some hidden problem that experience has yet to reveal. If you think you can find the specific problems without experiments, would you please at least be perfectly clear in your analysis and identification of the problems so others benefit. > > > > As for the plans, drawings etc. I believe Brent *SELLS* those, just like you did as a naval architect, so I would not expect to see the full set of drawings on-line. Unless you are trying to goad someone into giving them to you for free... > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: dskira@... > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:12:17 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > > > > > > Hi Hannu, > 1968 Bruxelle. > The type who design ship, vessel and boat, made of steel, wood, concrete and fiberglass, depending the customer and the use of the vessel. > The type who design fishing vessel, utility boat, cargo ship, yacht, and racing boat, motor and sail. What ever float the fancy of my customers. > Had a shipyard in Spain for more than twenty years, and an design office in New-York > I am member of the SNAME, and the RINA > Now I am by mysel in Maine, living a quiet life with my dear wife, and I have two grown kids living in Spain. I am building a boat for my own pleasure and still designing for few customers. > I still sailing the wounderfull water of the North Atlantic > What ever you built a house or the roof, it as absolutly no relation with a boat. > A house do not move. A house do not have a metacentric to be respected, a house do not have a weight distribution to trim ratio to be respected, a house do not have a floodable length curve, nor a transverse satbility curve, nor a weight to support relation calculation, nor a acceleration period, nor a roll period, and the list is so long, so I just stop here. > And as far as I know an amusement park is not a boat eather, but can be more fun, I admit. > Congratulation for you very thourough calculation for your project. > But thank you for sharing your experience. I apreciate. > Juts one question, I quote you: > > "No calculations were necessary, when adequate safety margin was present" > > How you know that without caculations? quite bizarre no? > How you know what is a safety margin? You born with? > > I quote you: > > "IMO, Brent boats are a good (well proven, btw) way of buildng a strong > safe structure." > > How you know that? I never been able to have any proof, not any drawing of them. > I saw just one section which was a bad engeneering by all account. > > Cheers > Daniel > > signs wrote: > > From: CNC 6-axis Designs > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 7:44 AM > > It´s great to have a NA on the group. > Where / what style of NA are you, and where did you graduate from ? > As You said so yourself, I hope you can share with us. > > I agree with Ben O´s posts, btw. > The Brent designs are very sturdy, stronger than necessary, and do not > need the other option of building, which, as you said are stringers, > gussets etc. > > I build cnc machines, and have an understanding of steel bending loads, > moments and ways to stiffen and/or preload structures. > > IMO, Brent boats are a good (well proven, btw) way of buildng a strong > safe structure. > > The longitudinal strength does not necessarily need to come from > stringers, just as a roof on a house does not necessarily need to be > supported by horizontals beams under it. > I built an amusement park (last year) by making the roof carry the load > (no beams underneath). > Technically, it´s a torsion box, with the load-bearing element being the > flat plywood sheets on top. > (A grid of 2x4, with two layers of plywood on top, independently cross > screwed every 130 mm with 100 mm 6,5 mm screws). > To break, the plywood layers (2 of 13 mm each) would have to rip against > about 200 screws/sheet, x 2 layers). > It carries upto 500 kg, 5 m in the air, and is approved by an a degreed > engineer/architect, and also the UK health and sefaty amusement parks > people who inspected it. > > It´s a boat, just flat. Grin. > (I built it with the 3x/10x safety factors required for supporting > people in lifting/underneath/height requirements. > No calculations were necessary, when adequate safety margin was present). > > Cheers, > hannu > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23644|23613|2010-07-15 18:16:38|Matt Malone|Re: Hull construction|Brent, now you make me wonder about your seamanship.... ;) For those who are interested, Google dskira... I found this site: http://www.skirayachtdesign.com/ Some are pretty to my eye, some are down right ugly to my eye. There is some suggestions of more detailed drawings. Other than the one I see under construction in his back yard on the skira and other sites, I do not see any photographs of built boats. It is easy to say something is well designed if it was never built. There are two designs with a link to a ship builder's site, only one of the two sites appears to advertize the design as one they might make... I would be curious to see photographs of built boats -- there must be some somewhere -- photographs that is. Honestly, I find the brilliance of the BS designs to be in the ease of construction. The hull is, a lot more than you would expect for the effort, but not exactly pretty to my eye. Gosh, the overhead in these Skira designs, a designer, a boatyard, all that framing. These Skira designs must be expensive boats. Out of my budget range unfortunately. I think Brent has found a much larger group of consumers. Weld in a little more steel if it seems too flexible. Easily done. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:47:49 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction 16 days pounding in 8 to 12 ft surf on a Baja lee shore is a pretty good structural analysis, as is pounding in big surf across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef, T boning a steel barge at 8 knots, a single season passage thru the NW passage, pounding to for six days on a rocky lee shore in the med, and 30 years of offshore cruising in all conditions, without a single structural failure at sea, are far better and more relevant series of structural analysis than any mathematical calculations.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Daniel, > > > > As an engineer, I can appreciate your desire for calculations. As an engineer however, I know that calculations, with complex geometries, and loadings, either become astronomically complex, or become approximate and only go so far. Unless you are willing to do a dynamic finite element / finite difference analysis of the boat and the water outside it, interacting, which for a small boat in even moderate seas could be very dynamic, at some point you make some large estimations or approximations that history has shown are safe and good. > > > > The material steel is so strong compared to the materials fibreglass and wood and so much heavier, that it leads to thin shells in boats. Buckling, becomes the major issue, both local inter-rib/stringer buckling, and overall buckling of the design. These are some of the most difficult phenomena to predict, and nearly impossible to estimate for a general 3-d curved shape without some major computation. It would be my guess at least some of your long career, you were designing boats when there was, by modern standards, insufficient computational power available to you to do that. > > > So you made decisions based on experience, rules of thumb, and such empirical and frankly mythical constructions as a metacentric, or floodable length curve that, when "respected", seemed to keep boats from sinking. Sorry, when there are computers, I no longer respect such empirical and approximate methods, particularly not to attack another design. > > > > One fact remains with steel: Designs that are thick enough so they are stiff enough to avoid bucking have tremendous membrane strengths. Combined with a "boat" shape, it is pretty hard to get it wrong, if it is stiff enough not to buckle. (I would guess that fin and skeg rudders, and twin keels --"projections" that tend to concentrate loads -- are areas where it is easier to mess it up.) Also, for small boats, the minimum thickness of steel sheet that an amateur can weld well, tends to be pretty thick for the length of the boat. This is the reason that thicker aluminum sheet is better for smaller boats. In the end, no business that produces things for others to use can afford to calculate everything, or anticipate everything, so they buy insurance. I hope Brent has some insurance as a designer. > > > > I have observed that Brent Swain Orgami boats have been made and sailed successfully for some time. Though this does not invalidate your years of doing it differently, nothing you say has invalidated the fact that the method appears to work. I am waiting for that fully 3D, dynamic finite element structural analysis, in concert with a free surface hydrodynamics program, for arbitrary hull shapes, in a single package. And yes, I would like it all to run on my next generation Ipad during a coffee break. Until it does, and is sufficiently validated, everyone is using experience to build boats to some extent, not just calculations. > > > > I submit, if your career as a naval architect was long, at one time you used a lot of experience, and only a few calculations to design a boat. You may have deluded yourself into believing that you really did have a full computational handle on boat design back then. I hope by now after seeing what real computational tools are beginning to do, you can see that your previous "calculations" are like the pretty geometric constructions and figures drawn by designers of cathedrals hundreds of years ago -- in complete ignorance of the most basic structural concepts such as Young's Modulus. I hope, having seen what computer simulation can do, and what it still cannot do (in less than a computational-lifetime), we should all realize just how little we formerly formally knew about building boats, yet we did build boats, and still build boats, based on experience. > > > > I think it has been established that Brent Swain and his designs now have some experience. Perhaps you would like to build a BS orgami boat and put some strain gauges on the inside, sail it for a while and find and then explain, specifically what the problem is. A carefully designed experiment would provide evidence of some hidden problem that experience has yet to reveal. If you think you can find the specific problems without experiments, would you please at least be perfectly clear in your analysis and identification of the problems so others benefit. > > > > As for the plans, drawings etc. I believe Brent *SELLS* those, just like you did as a naval architect, so I would not expect to see the full set of drawings on-line. Unless you are trying to goad someone into giving them to you for free... > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: dskira@... > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:12:17 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > > > > > > Hi Hannu, > 1968 Bruxelle. > The type who design ship, vessel and boat, made of steel, wood, concrete and fiberglass, depending the customer and the use of the vessel. > The type who design fishing vessel, utility boat, cargo ship, yacht, and racing boat, motor and sail. What ever float the fancy of my customers. > Had a shipyard in Spain for more than twenty years, and an design office in New-York > I am member of the SNAME, and the RINA > Now I am by mysel in Maine, living a quiet life with my dear wife, and I have two grown kids living in Spain. I am building a boat for my own pleasure and still designing for few customers. > I still sailing the wounderfull water of the North Atlantic > What ever you built a house or the roof, it as absolutly no relation with a boat. > A house do not move. A house do not have a metacentric to be respected, a house do not have a weight distribution to trim ratio to be respected, a house do not have a floodable length curve, nor a transverse satbility curve, nor a weight to support relation calculation, nor a acceleration period, nor a roll period, and the list is so long, so I just stop here. > And as far as I know an amusement park is not a boat eather, but can be more fun, I admit. > Congratulation for you very thourough calculation for your project. > But thank you for sharing your experience. I apreciate. > Juts one question, I quote you: > > "No calculations were necessary, when adequate safety margin was present" > > How you know that without caculations? quite bizarre no? > How you know what is a safety margin? You born with? > > I quote you: > > "IMO, Brent boats are a good (well proven, btw) way of buildng a strong > safe structure." > > How you know that? I never been able to have any proof, not any drawing of them. > I saw just one section which was a bad engeneering by all account. > > Cheers > Daniel > > signs wrote: > > From: CNC 6-axis Designs > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 7:44 AM > > It�s great to have a NA on the group. > Where / what style of NA are you, and where did you graduate from ? > As You said so yourself, I hope you can share with us. > > I agree with Ben O�s posts, btw. > The Brent designs are very sturdy, stronger than necessary, and do not > need the other option of building, which, as you said are stringers, > gussets etc. > > I build cnc machines, and have an understanding of steel bending loads, > moments and ways to stiffen and/or preload structures. > > IMO, Brent boats are a good (well proven, btw) way of buildng a strong > safe structure. > > The longitudinal strength does not necessarily need to come from > stringers, just as a roof on a house does not necessarily need to be > supported by horizontals beams under it. > I built an amusement park (last year) by making the roof carry the load > (no beams underneath). > Technically, it�s a torsion box, with the load-bearing element being the > flat plywood sheets on top. > (A grid of 2x4, with two layers of plywood on top, independently cross > screwed every 130 mm with 100 mm 6,5 mm screws). > To break, the plywood layers (2 of 13 mm each) would have to rip against > about 200 screws/sheet, x 2 layers). > It carries upto 500 kg, 5 m in the air, and is approved by an a degreed > engineer/architect, and also the UK health and sefaty amusement parks > people who inspected it. > > It�s a boat, just flat. Grin. > (I built it with the 3x/10x safety factors required for supporting > people in lifting/underneath/height requirements. > No calculations were necessary, when adequate safety margin was present). > > Cheers, > hannu > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23645|23613|2010-07-15 18:18:45|sitefix|Re: Hull construction|Oh come along now. I am certain that our new "friend" Daniel is subconsciously desirous of such a wonderful design method that saves so much time and resources. He must feel so frustrated for so much time dealing with antiques? He just needs a wee bit of coaxing along and he will end up a fine new origami devotee. btw- 96 degrees and 98% humidity here. too hot to weld. ("If you can't see your breath, it's too d@mn hot")yep, that be one of mine. Pere --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > He got laughed of another site he tried the same stuff with. Consider him entertainment, only. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > I suggest that you just ignore this chap. He is either just proof that apparently some dinosaur fossils can regain life of some form or he is just a Troll. Most likely just a Troll. > > > > While making claims to be an NA, he does not give his name, degree or what companies he has owned or was employed by net alone some examples of what he designed that are out there sailing. It is a basic tenant of the scientific would that you backup your statements with reference and establish your creditability. This guy has done none of these things. And if he has done big ships, it does not count because small boats are a very different kettle of fish. > > > > It is also note worthy that to every email that he has responded to, he has actually never replied to the points made. Just responded by repeating another version of that waffle that he originally posted. > > > > I severed an apprenticeship as a yacht designer and have worked as a professional yacht builder. I never met a designer that exhibited the closed mind that these post exhibit. > > > > So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption. > > > > We all have far to much boat building to do. The clock is ticking (your life) and the water is as welcoming as ever. Don't wast time on crap of this nature. > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" wrote: > > > > > > I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering design. > > > The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > > It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > > Cheers > > > Daniel > > > > > > | 23646|23613|2010-07-15 18:24:56|Daniel Skira|Re: Hull construction|We?   I submit, if your career as a naval architect was long, at one time you used a lot of experience, and only a few calculations to design a boat.   You may have deluded yourself into believing that you really did have a full computational handle on boat design back then.  I hope by now after seeing what real computational tools are beginning to do, you can see that your previous "calculations" are like the pretty geometric constructions and figures drawn by designers of cathedrals hundreds of years ago -- in complete ignorance of the most basic structural concepts such as Young's Modulus.  I hope, having seen what computer simulation can do, and what it still cannot do (in less than a computational-lifetime), we should all realize just how little we formerly formally knew about building boats, yet we did build boats, and still build boats, based on experience.    Sorry, talk for yourself. You obviusly do not know nothing about naval architecture. Don't comment if you don't know. Ot vread my previus post, it will expalin some of the calculations needed. Don't say WE, say I, it will be more accurate. Cheers Daniel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23647|23613|2010-07-15 18:29:17|Daniel Skira|Re: Hull construction for trollers|I must say you are bizarre. I never sday it didn't work, I said I necver had a PROOF it work. As for a proff I had: An amusement park, A house, A guy who try to Young's me An guy who compere itself to John Jones. A guy who said, if Brent say it irts true That my friend are no proof And please read before answering. And i recommend, if you buy a plan from Brent have them carefully checked by a naval architect. Cheers Daniel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23648|23613|2010-07-15 18:34:10|Daniel Skira|Re: Hull construction|Oh yes, I saw a section construction drawing. An egineering nightmare. If you buy a plan from Brent, have them checked by a naval architect. It will save you time, money and also having a better boat. I don't know what I am talking about you said. Do you know me? No, so be a little less arroguant, will be nice. I am talking BOAT, not people. What the beef with all of you, you act like you are all guilty of something. Cool of, its BOAT. Daniel --- On Thu, 7/15/10, theboilerflue wrote: From: theboilerflue Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 2:52 PM What is it about the origami process that you find isn't strong enough? do you think these boats will tear them selves apart or collapse on themselves I'd love to see some calculations (along with bit of an explanation of them, I'm no NA) I fail to see the weak points between the keels, the mast and the chain plates, it's a couple big triangles supported by 3x3x1/4 angle, 1/2 plate and 3" schedule 40 pipe. One should be able to pick the boat up from any of the chain plates on these boats, if I had to I would hesitate to do so. I suspect you don't actually know what you're talking about, I don't mean as a engineer, but that you need to have a good look at a frameless origami boat, it's plans, ect... So what do you need to look at? ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23651|23613|2010-07-15 18:38:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hull construction for trollers|On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 03:28:59PM -0700, Daniel Skira wrote: > I must say you are bizarre. > I never sday it didn't work, I said I necver had a PROOF it work. > As for a proff I had: > An amusement park, > A house, > A guy who try to Young's me > An guy who compere itself to John Jones. > A guy who said, if Brent say it irts true > That my friend are no proof > And please read before answering. > And i recommend, if you buy a plan from Brent have them carefully checked by a naval architect. Y'know, I'd have sworn that Naval Architects are supposed to be educated people - for example, able to write a detailed, clear, understandable explanation of their design and so on. Daniel, by contrast, appears not to speak English, does not know how to spell, and has failed to demonstrate an understanding of even the basics of engineering - all while claiming to be an NA. Troll? Troll. *PLONK* (the sound of his address hitting my killfile) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23652|23613|2010-07-15 18:44:55|Daniel Skira|Re: Hull construction|I don't know why you need to undermine the debate by saying that. I quote you:   That depends on the debate. We used to have a fellow here who insisted that building a boat at all was stupid - we should all buy houses, then do some magic tricks with a bank, and then we'd have enough money to buy a boat and sail forever. That "debate" contributed nothing, and the guy isn't here any more. It is of topic, and I don't see the relevance. Did you take a ferry sometime? In the US I mean?   Hope you can come back to an healthy debate. Please don't think for one moment I am against every thing, I am not, I repeat NOT against all of you, I want some proof. It is to much to ask? Don't tell me yes. By the way I NEVER said my boat are the best and should be revered, but all of you did that. Think about. cheers Daniel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23653|23613|2010-07-15 18:51:02|Daniel Skira|Re: Hull construction|Yes good point, Some of the formulaa are the same, but the connction are completly different, and here lie the difference..  As long as the connections are specificaly design for ship, yes you can use some of the same tables. As long the total integrity of stress distribution (not necessary on a land construction) is respecteed, no problem. cheers Daniel   --- On Thu, 7/15/10, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: From: CNC 6-axis Designs Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 2:48 PM On 15.7.2010 19:10, martin demers wrote: > a real artist doesn't need calculation.. > > he is born with it..! > > > > Martin > > > How you know that without caculations? quite bizarre no? > How you know what is a safety margin? You born with? > >    Daniel - Not at all. Good engineering practice is to start with minimum possible strength of material when the real material is "unknown" ie uncertified. Applies to load carrying beams, non-certified wood products etc. Ie there is a given strength for wood, say fir plywood. If the plywood has, say, a strength of between 1. - 3.0 depending on quality, and it is not a "qualified" beam, use 1.0 Apply a correction factor, like 0.9. Using the value of 0.9 means that every plywood will be at least 0.9 x (units). There are std formulas that do the same, common in house load carrying beams, mechnanical engineeering, and fasteners. In many cases, it is much easier and cheaper to just make it "strong enough" rather than try to make it right by theoretical means. Vertical wood beams of 160x160 mm cross-section are typically used to carry loads of several tons (construction, houses). When the needed total strength is 5 tons (with a 10x safety factor, used in lifts, where there is "mortal danger" or more than 3 m unsupported fall in this case), 4 posts will actually have a real failure rate around 20 tons (or quiet a bit higher, as the side structure was also load bearing). The beams (4 of) were about 120€ each. Using a smaller beam was silly ... as proving that a given beam is strong enough, or calculating the load (cannot be done without testing equipment or a load-certified, usually composite glued construction) wood would have been several thousands of €. So, by spending maybe 100€ extra on strong-enough, I got an "A" from the certifying society and did not need to use load-rated beams at about 500 € each. The guy who came to check the paperwork and construction was actually impressed. And he used to be a mining engineer, and in mines they have an excellent and time-proven appreciation for the load-bearing capacities of wood posts. I could have used solidworks and flamingo FEM model (I have access to these), but, and here is the but, it would not have proven that the structure was actually safe ! Only that if the given materials were perfect, and the application was as stated then the results were as given. In mechnical engineering we use time-tested formulas and application examples, which are standard formulas often simplified for real world use. These come from the Machinery´s Handbook. Architecture is similar (and so is electrical engineeering). There exist the formulas, not normally used, and std specs, usually used for everything. Thus we know, for example, that to use 2.5 sq mm wiring will allow us to use std appliances with it, upto 3 kW. And then use 16 amp GFIs for these wires. No caculation is necessary, and every inspector will pass it (some details apply, like nr of outlets etc). In naval engineeering, a lot of the tables and rules are exactly the same. There is the formula (for whichever classification society we use at the time), and then there s a short-cut such as use n mm spacing and x mm height for the longitudinals, when the vessel is less than 16 m in length. But You know all that, right ? What the point about the Brent boats is, that there are lots of ways to get strength. And the old-style longs/stringers/gussets, which is usually quite unnecessarily heavy in small craft, is by no means the only way. But You know all that as well, right ? Cheers, Hannu ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23654|23613|2010-07-15 18:56:30|Daniel Skira|Re: Hull construction|What are you talking about? You are quite of course. Please seat, relax, have a good time, and think before writing. You even don't know what is an inovative thinker since waht you defend the origami was used on the first iron boat in the 18 century. Whaooooo you are so advanced The British used it for small motor launch in 1918. Whaooooooooooo you are so advanced You are bull shit, you know that? You even don't know the genesis of waht you are defending with ignorance and arroguance. Cheers Daniel --- On Thu, 7/15/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 5:25 PM Your cult is the cult of "Nothing has been improved in the last 100 years" as your design shows. That kind of thinking would have stopped the advancement of anything in the stone age, if we had listened  to it. No progress has ever been made by ultra conservative thinkers. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > Hi David, > Sorry but your post is quite of topic, typical cult response. > Be more accurate, boat oriented and on topic before rambling. > I let you be the owner of this post. > And if you intent to built a Brent boat, have the plans examined. > If debate is trouble, you should revise your presence on a group or forum. > Cheers > Daniel > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 7:53 AM > > > Your rejection of this method of ship assembly reminds me of the attitude expressed by many when the auto industry started to move to unit body construction.  Many negative and baseless things where said about the lack of a frame that simply didn't hold up when the designs where put to the test.  I personally experienced the benefit in a Jeep Cherokee, the engine and transmission may have been junk but the frame was nice and stiff.    > > As to Origami boats I can't say what engineering went into the hulls as I have not discussed it with anybody nor do I have access to the prints.   I do however have enough practical experience with metal construction to realize the technique has merit.   A fully modeled design might be very interesting to see but I seriously doubt you have enough computer time to model every dynamic the ocean can throw at a ship.    However if you are qualified to do naval engineer and can model the structurals then please do! Show us where the faults are.    Frankly if you have the technical skills and software it is now possible to do such engineering on a PC, something not practical twenty years ago.  > > You seem to be of the mold that if something was done a certain way twenty or fifty years ago it must be the only way to do something today.    That frankly is BS.   Much of the design of steel boats have carried over from wood boats of the past.    Not because that was the best way to use the materials but simply because it required minimal effort.   All I'm saying is that you obviously came to this forum with a closed mind.    > > So instead of looking for an argument that no one here wants take your skills and analyze the designs structural soundness.   In other words add to the forum instead of creating trouble.    After all you say you are qualified to do so.    > > As a side note please explain all the well engineered ships that have sunk this year or last year.    Many events send ships to see Davey Jones.   We live in a in perfect world that is never free of risk.  > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jul 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Daniel Skira wrote: > > > Hi Ben, > > Thank you for your post. > >  > > I quote you: > > " but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > > statements. > > > > I agree with you, and I do what you say for a leaving, it's call naval architecture. > > Nothing dogmatic, just plain and simple calculation and good design, controled design. > > And yes I examine the evidence, only the real evidence. > >  > > I quote you: > > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > >  > > Of course its not perfect, but very close too. You should know that if you are a naval architect.  I just know what is working for a long period of time, and mostly I know that I decide the shape, I don't let a piece of steel decided for me. > > I never saw a line drawing with all the necessary calculation and the proof that the piece of steel on the floor is the same as the line drawing. > > I saw only one construction  drawing, and honnestly I will never built a boat with this kind of engineering. > > And how you know yourself that it is the best way to design and built a boat? > > Do you have some concrete evidence, or it is just what say Brent? > > You are right to question me, but also question everybody. > > It is good to be suspicious, and on that I agree to look at thousand of yacht going around the world. > > You should do the same, it is interresting. > > A  good debate is always proof of the good health of a group! > > Cheers > > Daniel > >  > > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 12:35 AM > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:06:23PM -0000, Daniel wrote: > >> I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not > >> suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering > >> design. > > > > [laugh] Welcome to the group, Daniel. You'll fit right in. > > > > Perhaps you should consider the fact that Brent's boats have been sailed > > across oceans in every kind of weather, have been run up on reefs with > > minimal to no damage, and have generally stood the test of time and salt > > water. I realize that you have beliefs that you treasure - > > > >> The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit > >> safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > > > - but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > > statements. > > > >> It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > > > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > > > > > > -- > >                        OKOPNIK CONSULTING > >         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > >                443-250-7895    http://okopnik.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > >        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23655|23655|2010-07-15 18:59:36|martin|How long does it take to Accept the Concept of these boats?|Hi All: Once again our site is having to deal with people not able to grasp that this is not a novel or new thing anymore! How many decades have people been sailing the oceans of the world and living aboard their origami boats? I could understand a debate of the building technique if it was just being introduced. What's next, maybe a good topic would be if an airplane could fly!!! On another much more important note. What size of pipe/rod are people using to connect the self steer to it's terminal in the pilot house. I have a couple of choices in what's left of all my metal. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 23656|23613|2010-07-15 19:02:46|Daniel Skira|Re: Hull construction|Paul, cool of, and learn to be polite.   You attack ME, and you don't know me. Talk about boat, not me. It is asking to much? Give me proof, no bullshit. If you know how to read I gave to one of the member my "resume" I didn't know you had a superiority syndrome. I quote you: "So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption." Would you like me to say: Heil Hitler? Grown up, Cheers Daniel     --- On Thu, 7/15/10, lachica31 wrote: From: lachica31 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 4:02 PM Hi Guys, I suggest that you just ignore this chap. He is either just proof that apparently some dinosaur fossils can regain life of some form or he is just a Troll. Most likely just a Troll. While making claims to be an NA, he does not give his name, degree or what companies he has owned or was employed by net alone some examples of what he designed that are out there sailing. It is a basic tenant of the scientific would that you backup your statements with reference and establish your creditability. This guy has done none of these things. And if he has done big ships, it does not count because small boats are a very different kettle of fish. It is also note worthy that to every email that he has responded to, he has actually never replied to the points made. Just responded by repeating another version of that waffle that he originally posted. I severed an apprenticeship as a yacht designer and have worked as a professional yacht builder. I never met a designer that exhibited the closed mind that these post exhibit. So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption. We all have far to much boat building to do. The clock is ticking (your life) and the water is as welcoming as ever. Don't wast time on crap of this nature. Regards, Paul Thompson --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" wrote: > > I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering design. > The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > Cheers > Daniel > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23657|23657|2010-07-15 19:19:27|Ben Okopnik|Group moderation|Just for general information, Daniel is on moderated status for the next 24 hours. His posts weren't contributing anything useful or positive that I could see, while his ranting was starting to spiral out of control. Even a private warning that I sent to him didn't seem to do any good. Daniel: continued ranting will get you ejected from the group, in very short order. This kind of behavior is not welcome here. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23658|23658|2010-07-15 20:08:56|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|(no subject)|> That depends on the debate. We used to have a fellow here who insisted > that building a boat at all was stupid - we should all buy houses, then > do some magic tricks with a bank, and then we'd have enough money to buy > a boat and sail forever. That "debate" contributed nothing, and the guy > isn't here any more. > "Did he end up getting a boat or was this before the bottom fell out of the real estate market, (there's a place where more transverse framing would have been handy)" As I recall, he was trying to persuade someone not to build a boat but to buy his, because it was so great and he needed to sell it (since no one was buying his designs, apparently).| 23659|23613|2010-07-15 20:12:54|martin demers|Re: Hull construction|the proof is obvious; origami boats are sailing around the word for maybe more than 30 years...! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: dskira@... Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:02:42 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction Paul, cool of, and learn to be polite. You attack ME, and you don't know me. Talk about boat, not me. It is asking to much? Give me proof, no bullshit. If you know how to read I gave to one of the member my "resume" I didn't know you had a superiority syndrome. I quote you: "So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption." Would you like me to say: Heil Hitler? Grown up, Cheers Daniel --- On Thu, 7/15/10, lachica31 wrote: From: lachica31 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 4:02 PM Hi Guys, I suggest that you just ignore this chap. He is either just proof that apparently some dinosaur fossils can regain life of some form or he is just a Troll. Most likely just a Troll. While making claims to be an NA, he does not give his name, degree or what companies he has owned or was employed by net alone some examples of what he designed that are out there sailing. It is a basic tenant of the scientific would that you backup your statements with reference and establish your creditability. This guy has done none of these things. And if he has done big ships, it does not count because small boats are a very different kettle of fish. It is also note worthy that to every email that he has responded to, he has actually never replied to the points made. Just responded by repeating another version of that waffle that he originally posted. I severed an apprenticeship as a yacht designer and have worked as a professional yacht builder. I never met a designer that exhibited the closed mind that these post exhibit. So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption. We all have far to much boat building to do. The clock is ticking (your life) and the water is as welcoming as ever. Don't wast time on crap of this nature. Regards, Paul Thompson --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" wrote: > > I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering design. > The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > Cheers > Daniel > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Occupez vos temps morts avec les jeux Messenger! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734395 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23660|23613|2010-07-15 20:46:03|lachica31|Re: Hull construction|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > Paul, cool of, and learn to be polite. >   > You attack ME, and you don't know me. I don't know you and am not sure that I want to judging from your posts. But if you are an NA (and by implication an engineer) you should know the standards of proof required. To join a forum, devoted to a particular subject and immediately attack it, well I'm surprised that you are still a live. This forums response has been unbelievably mild considering your statements. > Talk about boat, not me. It is asking to much? You have not produced any boat evidence to talk about. Only vague waffling of a general nature. > Give me proof, no bullshit. That's want I'm asking from you. I have not attacked anything apart from your so far unsubstantiated posts. > If you know how to read I gave to one of the member my "resume" Could you learn to write English? What you call a resume is rather like your proofs, neither here nor there. > I didn't know you had a superiority syndrome. I don't but I cannot stand Trolls. > I quote you: > "So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption." I stand by that. > Would you like me to say: Heil Hitler? Why not? If it will make you feel better. > Grown up, Might apply to you? Bottom line, don't post unsubstantiated posts and if you want a good reception when you join any forum, don't attack the purpose and the reason for it's existence. You said that you are retired? So presumably you are around 60 - 65 in age (at least?) Have you learnt nothing about human relations in all those years? > Cheers > Daniel Regards, Paul > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, lachica31 wrote: > > From: lachica31 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 4:02 PM > > Hi Guys, > > I suggest that you just ignore this chap. He is either just proof that apparently some dinosaur fossils can regain life of some form or he is just a Troll. Most likely just a Troll. > > While making claims to be an NA, he does not give his name, degree or what companies he has owned or was employed by net alone some examples of what he designed that are out there sailing. It is a basic tenant of the scientific would that you backup your statements with reference and establish your creditability. This guy has done none of these things. And if he has done big ships, it does not count because small boats are a very different kettle of fish. > > It is also note worthy that to every email that he has responded to, he has actually never replied to the points made. Just responded by repeating another version of that waffle that he originally posted. > > I severed an apprenticeship as a yacht designer and have worked as a professional yacht builder. I never met a designer that exhibited the closed mind that these post exhibit. > > So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption. > > We all have far to much boat building to do. The clock is ticking (your life) and the water is as welcoming as ever. Don't wast time on crap of this nature. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" wrote: > > > > I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering design. > > The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > Cheers > > Daniel | 23661|23657|2010-07-15 23:03:47|funkybackhand|Re: Group moderation|Thank you. Just to let you know, he has been extremely rude on the cruising forum, which resulted in an informative thread on there being shut down. It appears his goal in life is following B around trying to slander him any which way he can and as much as possible. Someone should lock him up or take out a restraining order before he does something insane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > Just for general information, Daniel is on moderated status for the next > 24 hours. His posts weren't contributing anything useful or positive > that I could see, while his ranting was starting to spiral out of > control. Even a private warning that I sent to him didn't seem to do any > good. > > Daniel: continued ranting will get you ejected from the group, in very > short order. This kind of behavior is not welcome here. > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23662|23657|2010-07-15 23:26:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: Group moderation|On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 02:50:43AM -0000, funkybackhand wrote: > Thank you. > > Just to let you know, he has been extremely rude on the cruising > forum, which resulted in an informative thread on there being shut > down. It appears his goal in life is following B around trying to > slander him any which way he can and as much as possible. Someone > should lock him up or take out a restraining order before he does > something insane. It's been pretty amusing, actually. Ever since I shut him down, he has been ranting and raving - at Brent, at me, at other people who have responded to him... I'm surprised that my inbox can contain that much venom. :) Oh, and the threats and the posturing have been just... precious. A friend of mine used to have a chipmunk that would get so pissed off and so wound up that he would eventually choke up on his outrage and fall over. I had forgotten all about that little thing, but Daniel's tooth-grinding, pop-eyed, flying-spit diatribes brought it all back, vividly. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23663|23657|2010-07-16 00:36:14|David Frantz|Re: Group moderation|Thank you Ben!! I'm by no means a NA and not even an Engineer but was immediately troubled by the attitude displayed. The lack of anything constructive with respect to Brents boats is sad. Generally the more educated eyes looking at an engineering endeavor the better in my mind. At least that is how it works in industry especially if you want to innovate. The lack of solid technical evaluations in the negative seems to confirm that there are good points to Origami hulls. Plus one has to acknowledge that nothing is perfect in this world anyway. On top of all of this I have to wonder what this guy thinks of Fiberglass hulls which in a way are structurally similar to Origami. The primary difference is in the way a Fiberglass hull is laid up, in a female mold, instead of formed by folding and bending. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 15, 2010, at 7:19 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > Just for general information, Daniel is on moderated status for the next > 24 hours. His posts weren't contributing anything useful or positive > that I could see, while his ranting was starting to spiral out of > control. Even a private warning that I sent to him didn't seem to do any > good. > > Daniel: continued ranting will get you ejected from the group, in very > short order. This kind of behavior is not welcome here. > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23664|23613|2010-07-16 01:03:28|Matt Malone|Re: Hull construction|Daniel, I know that, structural-flow interactions without a free surface (submarines and airplanes) are still very challenging problems which are the subject of PhD research. I know that free surface (with an water-air boundary that can form waves, if that is what the physics determines will happen) fluid dynamics for a fixed, rigid hull of simple shape in a tight range of quazi-stable operation, such as the development of bow and body waves, is to some extent a solved problem. Varying that to include any one of: -- hull flexibility, -- hull free to yaw, pitch, roll and plunge beyond small angles (so as to include broaching, diving) -- large displacements approaching knock-downs, roll overs are not completely solved problems by any means, and, as far as I know, in modern naval design, are still solved as separate problems, admittedly with advanced computer programs, but that each assume the other variables are fixed -- designs are than manually iterated to get the foggiest idea of what might really happen in particular cases in real life. Sure the water tank / towing tank / wave tank, of course gives good numbers but at great cost in time, for a few chosen models, and within the limits of what the apparatus can reproduce. Finally, the multidisciplinary optimization of all of this so that structure and hull form can converge to optimal designs for anything other than quazi-stable drag calculations (the largest factor in determining fuel consumption, admittedly important for cargo shipping) is far from solved. That is why people produce designs that look as different as what I see on your website, yet somehow call them all "good" designs. And I doubt you have a clue what I am talking about. Few dinosaurs would. Lets see some photographs of floating boats of your designs. Then the ooga-booga pseudo-math that was barely acceptable state of the art only when engineers used slide rules and Curta calculators, that sadly still seems to permeate naval design in some offices, might appear to be of some value in the computer age. I am happy to say, aerospace engineering began to do away with all of that by non-dimensionalization, and matrix equations of linearized stability derivatives more than 70 years ago. Admittedly, it was easier without a free surface, however, with transonics and supersonics for 63 years I have no doubt the rocket scientists have been solving the tough problems, while naval architects continue to use metacenters (zero-dimensional metrics) valid only for quazi-steady analysis and one and two-dimensional metrics for inherently 3 dimensional things. Without REAL calculations, your criticism of Brent's designs don't impress me much. And without evidence of real floating boats, not at all. Matt PS. and as for something like an orgami method being used ages ago -- not surprised at all. If you want to be useful, educate us all on the ancient history of why the method was not expanded on back then. Was it perhaps, the glass transition temperature problem and induced stresses in fabrication? Or a problem with rivoting, when welding was rare and expensive? I think the pattern of cuts and application to sailboats simply and inexpensively made is what is unique in Brent Swain's work. Now that there are backyard welders, the importance of what Brent has done for steel cruisers has come within an order of magnitude of what the invention of fibreglass molding of boats did for the accessibility of recreational boats in the 1960's. I am sure for you though, this was the beginning of the end for naval architecture, when boats could be stamped out of a mold, dozens per mold. I repeat, show us some pictures of your designs floating so we can compare apples to apples. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: dskira@... Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:24:38 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction We? I submit, if your career as a naval architect was long, at one time you used a lot of experience, and only a few calculations to design a boat. You may have deluded yourself into believing that you really did have a full computational handle on boat design back then. I hope by now after seeing what real computational tools are beginning to do, you can see that your previous "calculations" are like the pretty geometric constructions and figures drawn by designers of cathedrals hundreds of years ago -- in complete ignorance of the most basic structural concepts such as Young's Modulus. I hope, having seen what computer simulation can do, and what it still cannot do (in less than a computational-lifetime), we should all realize just how little we formerly formally knew about building boats, yet we did build boats, and still build boats, based on experience. Sorry, talk for yourself. You obviusly do not know nothing about naval architecture. Don't comment if you don't know. Ot vread my previus post, it will expalin some of the calculations needed. Don't say WE, say I, it will be more accurate. Cheers Daniel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23665|23613|2010-07-16 02:40:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Hull construction|From looking at the designs, it is obvious the designer has never done a long passage to windward. The "44 Bluewater Cruiser" would be a painfully slow and break the spirit of the the crew, in my opinion. I don't know anyone seriously sailing offshore in boats like this anymore. Why not have a tough boat that can actually sail? I don't get it. Paul Matt Malone wrote: > Brent, now you make me wonder about your seamanship.... ;) > > For those who are interested, Google dskira... I found this site: > > > > http://www.skirayachtdesign.com/ > > > > Some are pretty to my eye, some are down right ugly to my eye. There is some suggestions of more detailed drawings. Other than the one I see under construction in his back yard on the skira and other sites, I do not see any photographs of built boats. It is easy to say something is well designed if it was never built. There are two designs with a link to a ship builder's site, only one of the two sites appears to advertize the design as one they might make... I would be curious to see photographs of built boats -- there must be some somewhere -- photographs that is. > > > > Honestly, I find the brilliance of the BS designs to be in the ease of construction. The hull is, a lot more than you would expect for the effort, but not exactly pretty to my eye. Gosh, the overhead in these Skira designs, a designer, a boatyard, all that framing. These Skira designs must be expensive boats. Out of my budget range unfortunately. I think Brent has found a much larger group of consumers. Weld in a little more steel if it seems too flexible. Easily done. > > > > Matt > > > > | 23666|23613|2010-07-16 07:31:01|Matt Malone|Re: Hull construction|a 3 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:40:29 +1200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction From looking at the designs, it is obvious the designer has never done a long passage to windward. The "44 Bluewater Cruiser" would be a painfully slow and break the spirit of the the crew, in my opinion. I don't know anyone seriously sailing offshore in boats like this anymore. Why not have a tough boat that can actually sail? I don't get it. Paul Matt Malone wrote: > Brent, now you make me wonder about your seamanship.... ;) > > For those who are interested, Google dskira... I found this site: > > > > http://www.skirayachtdesign.com/ > > > > Some are pretty to my eye, some are down right ugly to my eye. There is some suggestions of more detailed drawings. Other than the one I see under construction in his back yard on the skira and other sites, I do not see any photographs of built boats. It is easy to say something is well designed if it was never built. There are two designs with a link to a ship builder's site, only one of the two sites appears to advertize the design as one they might make... I would be curious to see photographs of built boats -- there must be some somewhere -- photographs that is. > > > > Honestly, I find the brilliance of the BS designs to be in the ease of construction. The hull is, a lot more than you would expect for the effort, but not exactly pretty to my eye. Gosh, the overhead in these Skira designs, a designer, a boatyard, all that framing. These Skira designs must be expensive boats. Out of my budget range unfortunately. I think Brent has found a much larger group of consumers. Weld in a little more steel if it seems too flexible. Easily done. > > > > Matt > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23667|23613|2010-07-16 10:18:02|cumorglas|Re: Hull construction|David thank you for your well reasoned and polite answer to the troll. twenty years ago when i was going to college for boat de4sign and building a classmate of mine after completing a handful of both framed and stitch and glue plywood boats believed we could do the same with steel and have it be both lighter and stronger the same way that stitch and glue was. we let our professors talk us out of it. when i first stumbled across the origami website a few yeas ago i immediately called up one of those professors and yelled at him for a good twenty minutes. the reference the the cherokee design is apt. i have wheeled a couple of them for the last twenty years. the monocoque structure of the cherokee was revolutionary and now two and a half decades later proven. but it was the desire for finite element analysis testing that got amc in bed with the frenchmen that supplied you with the bad transmission. renault and peugot had the computers to do the FEA and in the 80's that stuff didn't come cheap. i am kind of partial to my ridiculous french fuel injection, but i am way happier with the AW transmissons. i.'ve never owned one with the peugot ba-10 but i have given guys that do more than a few rides home. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Your rejection of this method of ship assembly reminds me of the attitude expressed by many when the auto industry started to move to unit body construction. Many negative and baseless things where said about the lack of a frame that simply didn't hold up when the designs where put to the test. I personally experienced the benefit in a Jeep Cherokee, the engine and transmission may have been junk but the frame was nice and stiff. > > As to Origami boats I can't say what engineering went into the hulls as I have not discussed it with anybody nor do I have access to the prints. I do however have enough practical experience with metal construction to realize the technique has merit. A fully modeled design might be very interesting to see but I seriously doubt you have enough computer time to model every dynamic the ocean can throw at a ship. However if you are qualified to do naval engineer and can model the structurals then please do! Show us where the faults are. Frankly if you have the technical skills and software it is now possible to do such engineering on a PC, something not practical twenty years ago. > > You seem to be of the mold that if something was done a certain way twenty or fifty years ago it must be the only way to do something today. That frankly is BS. Much of the design of steel boats have carried over from wood boats of the past. Not because that was the best way to use the materials but simply because it required minimal effort. All I'm saying is that you obviously came to this forum with a closed mind. > > So instead of looking for an argument that no one here wants take your skills and analyze the designs structural soundness. In other words add to the forum instead of creating trouble. After all you say you are qualified to do so. > > As a side note please explain all the well engineered ships that have sunk this year or last year. Many events send ships to see Davey Jones. We live in a in perfect world that is never free of risk. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > | 23669|23669|2010-07-16 11:37:52|SHANE ROTHWELL|Hull Construction|Re: Daniel...... Lads, Does anyone else smelll BBQ? My old man use to say "bullshit baffles brains". In this case, very thankfully, not every time! I'm hoping that this guy is actually not a troll and might actually have something of value to offer. Either way, we will see in pretty short order. If he's of any use, I hope he's got a thick skin. If a troll, good on you lot for sorting out the garbage in such short order. Cheers, Shane| 23670|23613|2010-07-16 12:22:22|Mark Hamill|Re: Hull construction|In case anybody has forgotten--highlight the sender you want to block--go to Message and hit Block Sender--Voila--no more moron.| 23671|23613|2010-07-16 12:23:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hull construction|On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 12:59:39AM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > Lets see some photographs of floating boats of your designs. Then > the ooga-booga pseudo-math that was barely acceptable state of the art > only when engineers used slide rules and Curta calculators, that sadly > still seems to permeate naval design in some offices, might appear to > be of some value in the computer age. I am happy to say, aerospace > engineering began to do away with all of that by > non-dimensionalization, and matrix equations of linearized stability > derivatives more than 70 years ago. Admittedly, it was easier > without a free surface, however, with transonics and supersonics for > 63 years I have no doubt the rocket scientists have been solving the > tough problems, while naval architects continue to use metacenters > (zero-dimensional metrics) valid only for quazi-steady analysis and > one and two-dimensional metrics for inherently 3 dimensional things. > Without REAL calculations, your criticism of Brent's designs don't > impress me much. And without evidence of real floating boats, not at > all. [applause] Very, very well said, Matt. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23672|23613|2010-07-16 12:25:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hull construction|On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 06:47:03AM -0700, Daniel Skira wrote: > Poor man. > Did you see the plans, all the plans. > No of course. you just make an ininformed jugdgement call. [sigh] Well, OK. Since you insist on being banned permanently, you're gone. Bye-bye. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23673|23613|2010-07-16 12:58:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hull construction|On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 09:22:16AM -0700, Mark Hamill wrote: > In case anybody has forgotten--highlight the sender you want to block--go to > Message and hit Block Sender--Voila--no more moron. Shouldn't be an issue anymore; he's been banned permanently. It's possible (but not likely) that he'll get another Yahoo ID (which isn't all that easy, and gets much more difficult with repetition); if he does, I'll ban that one too. For it is the chief characteristic of the religion of science that it works, and that such curses as that of [its priests] are really deadly. -- Isaac Asimov, "Foundation" :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23674|23613|2010-07-16 13:01:26|Gord Schnell|Re: Hull construction|My God, this guy (Daniel Skira) is so out of date he probably still looks up to the Ark as a "leading edge" construct. I'm not sure if he can be helped, or whether anyone on this site is even interested in "giving it a go". I, for one, am not. Gord On 16-Jul-10, at 6:47 AM, Daniel Skira wrote: > Poor man. > Did you see the plans, all the plans. > No of course. you just make an ininformed jugdgement call. > Daniel > > --- On Fri, 7/16/10, Paul Wilson wrote: > > From: Paul Wilson > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, July 16, 2010, 2:40 AM > > From looking at the designs, it is obvious the designer has never done > a long passage to windward. The "44 Bluewater Cruiser" would be a > painfully slow and break the spirit of the the crew, in my > opinion. I > don't know anyone seriously sailing offshore in boats like this > anymore. Why not have a tough boat that can actually sail? I don't > get it. > > Paul > > Matt Malone wrote: > > Brent, now you make me wonder about your seamanship.... ;) > > > > For those who are interested, Google dskira... I found this site: > > > > > > > > http://www.skirayachtdesign.com/ > > > > > > > > Some are pretty to my eye, some are down right ugly to my eye. > There is some suggestions of more detailed drawings. Other than the > one I see under construction in his back yard on the skira and other > sites, I do not see any photographs of built boats. It is easy to > say something is well designed if it was never built. There are two > designs with a link to a ship builder's site, only one of the two > sites appears to advertize the design as one they might make... I > would be curious to see photographs of built boats -- there must be > some somewhere -- photographs that is. > > > > > > > > Honestly, I find the brilliance of the BS designs to be in the > ease of construction. The hull is, a lot more than you would > expect for the effort, but not exactly pretty to my eye. Gosh, the > overhead in these Skira designs, a designer, a boatyard, all that > framing. These Skira designs must be expensive boats. Out of my > budget range unfortunately. I think Brent has found a much larger > group of consumers. Weld in a little more steel if it seems too > flexible. Easily done. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23675|23613|2010-07-16 13:04:06|sitefix|Re: Hull construction|Aachk ladds, me thinks poor danny may be tipping a few too many with perhaps too much time on his hands, hence the scribblings, rantings an such. never was i fond of unpleasant imbibers. i have carried a few mates back to the boat, but never the trouble makers. alas, another one ruined by too much institution, education and frustration? hmmm, me wonders what the weather be like in Bar es Salaam or Beira or maybe Durban about now. MM is a beer that goes down exceedingly easy when one in in Mozambique enjoying the crustaceans. salutes, pere --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 06:47:03AM -0700, Daniel Skira wrote: > > Poor man. > > Did you see the plans, all the plans. > > No of course. you just make an ininformed jugdgement call. > > [sigh] Well, OK. Since you insist on being banned permanently, you're > gone. Bye-bye. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23676|23613|2010-07-16 13:28:31|CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: Hull construction|> hmmm, me wonders what the weather be like in Bar es Salaam > Warm ! Went to scholl there ... > > or Beira > Warm ! Visited when I was in school in Lusaka. > > or maybe Durban > Warm ! But never been. > about now. MM is a beer that goes down exceedingly easy when one in in > Mozambique enjoying the crustaceans. > YES ! And a great place. And the best rustaceans I ever remmeber eating in my life. > > > salutes, > > pere > And it´s about 40 C here in Barcelona, Spain. BTW, somewhat related to metal boats ... My cnc mill is finally operative. Shop built by me from scratch to make boat parts. 2000 kg, 600 parts, 16k hours. Now I need to finish the slatted table. I have 5 pieces of 30x80 mm tool steel as the slats, 1600 mm wide (the table is 2.4 m but I am only using the first 90 cm so far). And next week should get linear slides from korea to put the table on. Then I can mill hatches in one setup to gas-tight specs. I am using a Bp M-head as the spindle, with a Hitach 2.2 kW VFD. The motor and mill head are about 50 years old, and run almost noiselessly. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23679|23613|2010-07-16 13:49:44|Daniel Skira|Re: Hull construction|I never ever said I was retired. Non sense. Older than you think and still building and designing. Daniel --- On Thu, 7/15/10, lachica31 wrote: From: lachica31 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 8:44 PM --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > Paul, cool of, and learn to be polite. >   > You attack ME, and you don't know me. I don't know you and am not sure that I want to judging from your posts. But if you are an NA (and by implication an engineer) you should know the standards of proof required. To join a forum, devoted to a particular subject and immediately attack it, well I'm surprised that you are still a live. This forums response has been unbelievably mild considering your statements. > Talk about boat, not me. It is asking to much? You have not produced any boat evidence to talk about. Only vague waffling of a general nature. > Give me proof, no bullshit. That's want I'm asking from you. I have not attacked anything apart from your so far unsubstantiated posts. > If you know how to read I gave to one of the member my "resume" Could you learn to write English? What you call a resume is rather like your proofs, neither here nor there. > I didn't know you had a superiority syndrome. I don't but I cannot stand Trolls. > I quote you: > "So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption." I stand by that. > Would you like me to say: Heil Hitler? Why not? If it will make you feel better. > Grown up, Might apply to you? Bottom line, don't post unsubstantiated posts and if you want a good reception when you join any forum, don't attack the purpose and the reason for it's existence. You said that you are retired? So presumably you are around 60 - 65 in age (at least?) Have you learnt nothing about human relations in all those years? > Cheers > Daniel Regards, Paul > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, lachica31 wrote: > > From: lachica31 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 4:02 PM > > Hi Guys, > > I suggest that you just ignore this chap. He is either just proof that apparently some dinosaur fossils can regain life of some form or he is just a Troll. Most likely just a Troll. > > While making claims to be an NA, he does not give his name, degree or what companies he has owned or was employed by net alone some examples of what he designed that are out there sailing. It is a basic tenant of the scientific would that you backup your statements with reference and establish your creditability. This guy has done none of these things. And if he has done big ships, it does not count because small boats are a very different kettle of fish. > > It is also note worthy that to every email that he has responded to, he has actually never replied to the points made. Just responded by repeating another version of that waffle that he originally posted. > > I severed an apprenticeship as a yacht designer and have worked as a professional yacht builder. I never met a designer that exhibited the closed mind that these post exhibit. > > So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption. > > We all have far to much boat building to do. The clock is ticking (your life) and the water is as welcoming as ever. Don't wast time on crap of this nature. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" wrote: > > > > I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering design. > > The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > Cheers > > Daniel ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23680|23613|2010-07-16 14:06:43|brentswain38|Re: Hull construction|Naval architects have a huge financial interest in charging a lot of money for keeping things expensive and complicated. They have an abysmal record when it comes to drastically raising the amount of time and money it takes to get a boat together. You, Danny, are a part of that tradition (n for fun and profit). Very few of the designs out there are as well proven as mine. You say all who have endured the many torture tests are liars. That makes you the more likely liar. Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to get a hull and deck together , something I do in less than 100 hours. Yes it takes little time to weld a few frames together. Then there's the time to set them up perfectly on a jig, then bending the logitudinals around them, then fitting the plates to an already existing shape, then many times the amount of welding( and potential for distortion) , etc etc. Thus, instead of 100 hours you have 1,000 hours , before you start the detailing,and full welding. I don't know anyone building a framed hull from scratch in their backyard with minimal tools who has managed to get a hull together in two days. On another site Dany said that shape has no effect on strength. I suggested that a round mast section is much stronger than a flat piece of plate the same thickness, length and width as the circumfrence of the mast . The reponse? PROVE IT! Duuhhh!! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > Oh yes, I saw a section construction drawing. > An egineering nightmare. > If you buy a plan from Brent, have them checked by a naval architect. > It will save you time, money and also having a better boat. > I don't know what I am talking about you said. Do you know me? No, so be a little less arroguant, will be nice. > I am talking BOAT, not people. > What the beef with all of you, you act like you are all guilty of something. > Cool of, its BOAT. > Daniel > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > From: theboilerflue > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 2:52 PM > > > > What is it about the origami process that you find isn't strong enough? do you think these boats will tear them selves apart or collapse on themselves I'd love to see some calculations (along with bit of an explanation of them, I'm no NA) I fail to see the weak points between the keels, the mast and the chain plates, it's a couple big triangles supported by 3x3x1/4 angle, 1/2 plate and 3" schedule 40 pipe. One should be able to pick the boat up from any of the chain plates on these boats, if I had to I would hesitate to do so. > I suspect you don't actually know what you're talking about, I don't mean as a engineer, but that you need to have a good look at a frameless origami boat, it's plans, ect... > So what do you need to look at? > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23681|23655|2010-07-16 14:14:08|brentswain38|Re: How long does it take to Accept the Concept of these boats?|As Ongolo said "When a new idea comes along, It goes thru three stages. First it is ridiculed, then it is vehemently denied, then it is generally accepted." We are at stage three and have been for decades. Danny is stil at astage one, creeping slowly into stage two. I used half inch rod for my inside steering, but it has a bit of twist to it. Lately I have ben using 1/2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe. NO twist in that. Use the half inch ss sch 40 pipe. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > Hi All: Once again our site is having to deal with people not able to grasp that this is not a novel or new thing anymore! How many decades have people been sailing the oceans of the world and living aboard their origami boats? I could understand a debate of the building technique if it was just being introduced. What's next, maybe a good topic would be if an airplane could fly!!! On another much more important note. What size of pipe/rod are people using to connect the self steer to it's terminal in the pilot house. I have a couple of choices in what's left of all my metal. > Martin (Prairie Maid) > | 23682|23613|2010-07-16 14:20:33|brentswain38|Re: Hull construction|If I wanted to kick you out I would have --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > You are not far from the truth. It is what I was asking from the beginning. > You seams to be the only one who understand. > But I would like to point out something: could you show me the interior of several origami hull built, because my enquirie show that a lot of builder added some part to strengtht the hull. > Now we are talking about 36' sailing boat. Period. we are not talking something else. Right? > Asd for the weight estimate, it show that a frames hull and an origami hull are in the same weight braket. To put frames it take 7 days, not a real time wasted. > But the unknown is the REAL construction by owners. what they did exactly, and what is the real proof that you can control the shape from a lines plan, and you end up with the shape YOU want, not the one the steel want. > So I don't see why everybody treat me like shit because I ask NORMAL question. > Do they have something to hide.? > Even the moderator find my question to pertinantes, so he want to kick me out. > Talk about a control freak. > I ALWAYS talked about boat, only boat. > Daniel > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, sitefix wrote: > > > From: sitefix > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 6:18 PM > > > Oh come along now. > > I am certain that our new "friend" Daniel is subconsciously desirous of such a wonderful design method that saves so much time and resources. He must feel so frustrated for so much time dealing with antiques? He just needs a wee bit of coaxing along and he will end up a fine new origami devotee. > btw- 96 degrees and 98% humidity here. too hot to weld. > ("If you can't see your breath, it's too d@mn hot")yep, that be one of mine. > > Pere > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > He got laughed of another site he tried the same stuff with. Consider him entertainment, only. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I suggest that you just ignore this chap. He is either just proof that apparently some dinosaur fossils can regain life of some form or he is just a Troll. Most likely just a Troll. > > > > > > While making claims to be an NA, he does not give his name, degree or what companies he has owned or was employed by net alone some examples of what he designed that are out there sailing. It is a basic tenant of the scientific would that you backup your statements with reference and establish your creditability. This guy has done none of these things. And if he has done big ships, it does not count because small boats are a very different kettle of fish. > > > > > > It is also note worthy that to every email that he has responded to, he has actually never replied to the points made. Just responded by repeating another version of that waffle that he originally posted. > > > > > > I severed an apprenticeship as a yacht designer and have worked as a professional yacht builder. I never met a designer that exhibited the closed mind that these post exhibit. > > > > > > So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption. > > > > > > We all have far to much boat building to do. The clock is ticking (your life) and the water is as welcoming as ever. Don't wast time on crap of this nature. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" wrote: > > > > > > > > I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering design. > > > > The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > > > It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > > > Cheers > > > > Daniel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23683|23613|2010-07-16 14:21:10|brentswain38|Re: Hull construction|Origami has been the standard method of sheet metal working since the ancient Egyptians , in fact it has been around for as long as sheet material has been around. I have often told people that if they went inland far enough and asked a sheet metal worker to build a hull shape without telling him it is a boat he would automatically use origami methods. Tell him it is a boat he would reasd the books and d it theh hrd way ( wooden boat way) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > What are you talking about? > You are quite of course. > Please seat, relax, have a good time, and think before writing. > You even don't know what is an inovative thinker since waht you defend the origami was used on the first iron boat in the 18 century. Whaooooo you are so advanced > The British used it for small motor launch in 1918. Whaooooooooooo you are so advanced > You are bull shit, you know that? You even don't know the genesis of waht you are defending with ignorance and arroguance. > Cheers > Daniel > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 5:25 PM > > > Your cult is the cult of "Nothing has been improved in the last 100 years" as your design shows. That kind of thinking would have stopped the advancement of anything in the stone age, if we had listened to it. > No progress has ever been made by ultra conservative thinkers. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > > > Hi David, > > Sorry but your post is quite of topic, typical cult response. > > Be more accurate, boat oriented and on topic before rambling. > > I let you be the owner of this post. > > And if you intent to built a Brent boat, have the plans examined. > > If debate is trouble, you should revise your presence on a group or forum. > > Cheers > > Daniel > > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 7:53 AM > > > > > > Your rejection of this method of ship assembly reminds me of the attitude expressed by many when the auto industry started to move to unit body construction. Many negative and baseless things where said about the lack of a frame that simply didn't hold up when the designs where put to the test. I personally experienced the benefit in a Jeep Cherokee, the engine and transmission may have been junk but the frame was nice and stiff. > > > > As to Origami boats I can't say what engineering went into the hulls as I have not discussed it with anybody nor do I have access to the prints. I do however have enough practical experience with metal construction to realize the technique has merit. A fully modeled design might be very interesting to see but I seriously doubt you have enough computer time to model every dynamic the ocean can throw at a ship. However if you are qualified to do naval engineer and can model the structurals then please do! Show us where the faults are. Frankly if you have the technical skills and software it is now possible to do such engineering on a PC, something not practical twenty years ago. > > > > You seem to be of the mold that if something was done a certain way twenty or fifty years ago it must be the only way to do something today. That frankly is BS. Much of the design of steel boats have carried over from wood boats of the past. Not because that was the best way to use the materials but simply because it required minimal effort. All I'm saying is that you obviously came to this forum with a closed mind. > > > > So instead of looking for an argument that no one here wants take your skills and analyze the designs structural soundness. In other words add to the forum instead of creating trouble. After all you say you are qualified to do so. > > > > As a side note please explain all the well engineered ships that have sunk this year or last year. Many events send ships to see Davey Jones. We live in a in perfect world that is never free of risk. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Jul 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Daniel Skira wrote: > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > Thank you for your post. > > > > > > I quote you: > > > " but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > > > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > > > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > > > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > > > statements. > > > > > > I agree with you, and I do what you say for a leaving, it's call naval architecture. > > > Nothing dogmatic, just plain and simple calculation and good design, controled design. > > > And yes I examine the evidence, only the real evidence. > > > > > > I quote you: > > > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > > > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > > > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > > > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > > > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > > > > > > Of course its not perfect, but very close too. You should know that if you are a naval architect. I just know what is working for a long period of time, and mostly I know that I decide the shape, I don't let a piece of steel decided for me. > > > I never saw a line drawing with all the necessary calculation and the proof that the piece of steel on the floor is the same as the line drawing. > > > I saw only one construction drawing, and honnestly I will never built a boat with this kind of engineering. > > > And how you know yourself that it is the best way to design and built a boat? > > > Do you have some concrete evidence, or it is just what say Brent? > > > You are right to question me, but also question everybody. > > > It is good to be suspicious, and on that I agree to look at thousand of yacht going around the world. > > > You should do the same, it is interresting. > > > A good debate is always proof of the good health of a group! > > > Cheers > > > Daniel > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:06:23PM -0000, Daniel wrote: > > >> I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not > > >> suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering > > >> design. > > > > > > [laugh] Welcome to the group, Daniel. You'll fit right in. > > > > > > Perhaps you should consider the fact that Brent's boats have been sailed > > > across oceans in every kind of weather, have been run up on reefs with > > > minimal to no damage, and have generally stood the test of time and salt > > > water. I realize that you have beliefs that you treasure - > > > > > >> The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit > > >> safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > > > > > - but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > > > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > > > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > > > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > > > statements. > > > > > >> It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > > > > > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > > > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > > > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > > > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > > > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23684|23613|2010-07-16 15:01:10|h|Re: Hull construction|"I forget to mention to the respected members of this group, that I am a naval architect and use to be shipbuilder, now just in my old age a boat builder. Cheers Daniel" A comment like this would lead most people to believe that you're no longer a naval architect and thus retired from the profession...... I think you need to brush up on your english a bit, sometimes it can be a little confusing via a web forum. Interesting patent you have by the way, it seems near every time I look at patents I'm dumbfounded at what they will allow people to own, especially when it comes to ideas - it's something as heart warming as patenting living organisms. How did you talk them into letting you patent the use of a template? I remember back in that drafting class I took in grade 9 when we had to use a french curve to transfer lines and keep them all the same... and someone taught me this great trick with hotglue and strips of doorskin... do I owe you royalties now? But Brent, I think you'll love this, really you've both been saying the same thing all this time: "For more than 100 years, extending down to the present time, the method just described is the way that original hulls have been created (standard framing). For all that time, much of the cost of producing hulls has come from this frame by frame by frame approach. Although a hull, once designed and constructed, can form the mold for repetitive and relatively inexpensive copying, originality of design is a good that has always driven the market for new boats, especially where sailing craft and other sporting boats are concerned. It is, however, a good that is difficult to acquire because of the high cost of producing unique boats. Therefore, what is needed is a method to produce original hulls in a manner requiring less time than the method now in use. What is further needed is a method that is more efficient both at the design stage and at the construction stage of original hulls. What is yet further needed is such a method that can be implemented in the boat-building craft as it is presently constituted." this is from your patent, available for the world to see here: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6564737.PN.&OS=PN/6564737&RS=PN/6564737 right at the end of the description of "prior ART" - yes art even though you insisted..... "It is not an art, and yes sharing information ......." --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > I never ever said I was retired. > Non sense. > Older than you think and still building and designing. > Daniel > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, lachica31 wrote: > > > From: lachica31 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 8:44 PM > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > > > Paul, cool of, and learn to be polite. > >   > > You attack ME, and you don't know me. > I don't know you and am not sure that I want to judging from your posts. But if you are an NA (and by implication an engineer) you should know the standards of proof required. To join a forum, devoted to a particular subject and immediately attack it, well I'm surprised that you are still a live. This forums response has been unbelievably mild considering your statements. > > Talk about boat, not me. It is asking to much? > You have not produced any boat evidence to talk about. Only vague waffling of a general nature. > > Give me proof, no bullshit. > That's want I'm asking from you. I have not attacked anything apart from your so far unsubstantiated posts. > > If you know how to read I gave to one of the member my "resume" > Could you learn to write English? What you call a resume is rather like your proofs, neither here nor there. > > I didn't know you had a superiority syndrome. > I don't but I cannot stand Trolls. > > I quote you: > > "So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption." > I stand by that. > > Would you like me to say: Heil Hitler? > Why not? If it will make you feel better. > > Grown up, > Might apply to you? Bottom line, don't post unsubstantiated posts and if you want a good reception when you join any forum, don't attack the purpose and the reason for it's existence. You said that you are retired? So presumably you are around 60 - 65 in age (at least?) Have you learnt nothing about human relations in all those years? > > Cheers > > Daniel > > Regards, > > Paul > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, lachica31 wrote: > > > > From: lachica31 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 4:02 PM > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > I suggest that you just ignore this chap. He is either just proof that apparently some dinosaur fossils can regain life of some form or he is just a Troll. Most likely just a Troll. > > > > While making claims to be an NA, he does not give his name, degree or what companies he has owned or was employed by net alone some examples of what he designed that are out there sailing. It is a basic tenant of the scientific would that you backup your statements with reference and establish your creditability. This guy has done none of these things. And if he has done big ships, it does not count because small boats are a very different kettle of fish. > > > > It is also note worthy that to every email that he has responded to, he has actually never replied to the points made. Just responded by repeating another version of that waffle that he originally posted. > > > > I severed an apprenticeship as a yacht designer and have worked as a professional yacht builder. I never met a designer that exhibited the closed mind that these post exhibit. > > > > So guys, please don't give this twit any satisfaction if you can help it. He is quite obviously not out to learn new things but just to cause disruption. > > > > We all have far to much boat building to do. The clock is ticking (your life) and the water is as welcoming as ever. Don't wast time on crap of this nature. > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" wrote: > > > > > > I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering design. > > > The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > > It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > > Cheers > > > Daniel > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23685|23613|2010-07-16 15:01:51|Matt Malone|Re: Hull construction|>From: brentswain38@... >Origami has been the standard method of sheet metal working since the ancient Egyptians , >in fact it has been around for as long as sheet material has been around. >I have often told people that if they went inland far enough and asked a sheet metal worker >to build a hull shape without telling him it is a boat he would automatically use origami >methods. Tell him it is a boat he would reasd the books and d it theh hrd way ( wooden boat way) How true. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > What are you talking about? > You are quite of course. > Please seat, relax, have a good time, and think before writing. > You even don't know what is an inovative thinker since waht you defend the origami was used on the first iron boat in the 18 century. Whaooooo you are so advanced > The British used it for small motor launch in 1918. Whaooooooooooo you are so advanced > You are bull shit, you know that? You even don't know the genesis of waht you are defending with ignorance and arroguance. > Cheers > Daniel > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 5:25 PM > > > Your cult is the cult of "Nothing has been improved in the last 100 years" as your design shows. That kind of thinking would have stopped the advancement of anything in the stone age, if we had listened to it. > No progress has ever been made by ultra conservative thinkers. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > > > Hi David, > > Sorry but your post is quite of topic, typical cult response. > > Be more accurate, boat oriented and on topic before rambling. > > I let you be the owner of this post. > > And if you intent to built a Brent boat, have the plans examined. > > If debate is trouble, you should revise your presence on a group or forum. > > Cheers > > Daniel > > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 7:53 AM > > > > > > Your rejection of this method of ship assembly reminds me of the attitude expressed by many when the auto industry started to move to unit body construction. Many negative and baseless things where said about the lack of a frame that simply didn't hold up when the designs where put to the test. I personally experienced the benefit in a Jeep Cherokee, the engine and transmission may have been junk but the frame was nice and stiff. > > > > As to Origami boats I can't say what engineering went into the hulls as I have not discussed it with anybody nor do I have access to the prints. I do however have enough practical experience with metal construction to realize the technique has merit. A fully modeled design might be very interesting to see but I seriously doubt you have enough computer time to model every dynamic the ocean can throw at a ship. However if you are qualified to do naval engineer and can model the structurals then please do! Show us where the faults are. Frankly if you have the technical skills and software it is now possible to do such engineering on a PC, something not practical twenty years ago. > > > > You seem to be of the mold that if something was done a certain way twenty or fifty years ago it must be the only way to do something today. That frankly is BS. Much of the design of steel boats have carried over from wood boats of the past. Not because that was the best way to use the materials but simply because it required minimal effort. All I'm saying is that you obviously came to this forum with a closed mind. > > > > So instead of looking for an argument that no one here wants take your skills and analyze the designs structural soundness. In other words add to the forum instead of creating trouble. After all you say you are qualified to do so. > > > > As a side note please explain all the well engineered ships that have sunk this year or last year. Many events send ships to see Davey Jones. We live in a in perfect world that is never free of risk. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Jul 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Daniel Skira wrote: > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > Thank you for your post. > > > > > > I quote you: > > > " but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > > > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > > > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > > > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > > > statements. > > > > > > I agree with you, and I do what you say for a leaving, it's call naval architecture. > > > Nothing dogmatic, just plain and simple calculation and good design, controled design. > > > And yes I examine the evidence, only the real evidence. > > > > > > I quote you: > > > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > > > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > > > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > > > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > > > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > > > > > > Of course its not perfect, but very close too. You should know that if you are a naval architect. I just know what is working for a long period of time, and mostly I know that I decide the shape, I don't let a piece of steel decided for me. > > > I never saw a line drawing with all the necessary calculation and the proof that the piece of steel on the floor is the same as the line drawing. > > > I saw only one construction drawing, and honnestly I will never built a boat with this kind of engineering. > > > And how you know yourself that it is the best way to design and built a boat? > > > Do you have some concrete evidence, or it is just what say Brent? > > > You are right to question me, but also question everybody. > > > It is good to be suspicious, and on that I agree to look at thousand of yacht going around the world. > > > You should do the same, it is interresting. > > > A good debate is always proof of the good health of a group! > > > Cheers > > > Daniel > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:06:23PM -0000, Daniel wrote: > > >> I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not > > >> suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering > > >> design. > > > > > > [laugh] Welcome to the group, Daniel. You'll fit right in. > > > > > > Perhaps you should consider the fact that Brent's boats have been sailed > > > across oceans in every kind of weather, have been run up on reefs with > > > minimal to no damage, and have generally stood the test of time and salt > > > water. I realize that you have beliefs that you treasure - > > > > > >> The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit > > >> safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > > > > > - but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > > > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > > > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > > > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > > > statements. > > > > > >> It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > > > > > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > > > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > > > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > > > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > > > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23686|23613|2010-07-16 15:05:30|brentswain38|Re: Hull construction|For the one of his designs he posted, I was generous calling it 1930's technology. Late 1800s would possibly be more accurate. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > My God, this guy (Daniel Skira) is so out of date he probably still > looks up to the Ark as a "leading edge" construct. I'm not sure if he > can be helped, or whether anyone on this site is even interested in > "giving it a go". I, for one, am not. > Gord > > On 16-Jul-10, at 6:47 AM, Daniel Skira wrote: > > > Poor man. > > Did you see the plans, all the plans. > > No of course. you just make an ininformed jugdgement call. > > Daniel > > > > --- On Fri, 7/16/10, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > From: Paul Wilson > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Friday, July 16, 2010, 2:40 AM > > > > From looking at the designs, it is obvious the designer has never done > > a long passage to windward. The "44 Bluewater Cruiser" would be a > > painfully slow and break the spirit of the the crew, in my > > opinion. I > > don't know anyone seriously sailing offshore in boats like this > > anymore. Why not have a tough boat that can actually sail? I don't > > get it. > > > > Paul > > > > Matt Malone wrote: > > > Brent, now you make me wonder about your seamanship.... ;) > > > > > > For those who are interested, Google dskira... I found this site: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.skirayachtdesign.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Some are pretty to my eye, some are down right ugly to my eye. > > There is some suggestions of more detailed drawings. Other than the > > one I see under construction in his back yard on the skira and other > > sites, I do not see any photographs of built boats. It is easy to > > say something is well designed if it was never built. There are two > > designs with a link to a ship builder's site, only one of the two > > sites appears to advertize the design as one they might make... I > > would be curious to see photographs of built boats -- there must be > > some somewhere -- photographs that is. > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, I find the brilliance of the BS designs to be in the > > ease of construction. The hull is, a lot more than you would > > expect for the effort, but not exactly pretty to my eye. Gosh, the > > overhead in these Skira designs, a designer, a boatyard, all that > > framing. These Skira designs must be expensive boats. Out of my > > budget range unfortunately. I think Brent has found a much larger > > group of consumers. Weld in a little more steel if it seems too > > flexible. Easily done. > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23687|23613|2010-07-16 15:07:05|brentswain38|Re: Hull construction|Sorry for the typos. Library computer time was running out. Too bad we don't have "edit"on this site. One couldn't ask for a better way to promote origami boat building methods, than to have a guy like Danny represent the opposition and the skeptics. He is a prime example of where they are coming from. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Origami has been the standard method of sheet metal working since the ancient Egyptians , in fact it has been around for as long as sheet material has been around. > I have often told people that if they went inland far enough and asked a sheet metal worker to build a hull shape without telling him it is a boat he would automatically use origami methods. Tell him it is a boat he would reasd the books and d it theh hrd way ( wooden boat way) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > > > What are you talking about? > > You are quite of course. > > Please seat, relax, have a good time, and think before writing. > > You even don't know what is an inovative thinker since waht you defend the origami was used on the first iron boat in the 18 century. Whaooooo you are so advanced > > The British used it for small motor launch in 1918. Whaooooooooooo you are so advanced > > You are bull shit, you know that? You even don't know the genesis of waht you are defending with ignorance and arroguance. > > Cheers > > Daniel > > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 5:25 PM > > > > > > Your cult is the cult of "Nothing has been improved in the last 100 years" as your design shows. That kind of thinking would have stopped the advancement of anything in the stone age, if we had listened to it. > > No progress has ever been made by ultra conservative thinkers. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > > > > > Hi David, > > > Sorry but your post is quite of topic, typical cult response. > > > Be more accurate, boat oriented and on topic before rambling. > > > I let you be the owner of this post. > > > And if you intent to built a Brent boat, have the plans examined. > > > If debate is trouble, you should revise your presence on a group or forum. > > > Cheers > > > Daniel > > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 7:53 AM > > > > > > > > > Your rejection of this method of ship assembly reminds me of the attitude expressed by many when the auto industry started to move to unit body construction. Many negative and baseless things where said about the lack of a frame that simply didn't hold up when the designs where put to the test. I personally experienced the benefit in a Jeep Cherokee, the engine and transmission may have been junk but the frame was nice and stiff. > > > > > > As to Origami boats I can't say what engineering went into the hulls as I have not discussed it with anybody nor do I have access to the prints. I do however have enough practical experience with metal construction to realize the technique has merit. A fully modeled design might be very interesting to see but I seriously doubt you have enough computer time to model every dynamic the ocean can throw at a ship. However if you are qualified to do naval engineer and can model the structurals then please do! Show us where the faults are. Frankly if you have the technical skills and software it is now possible to do such engineering on a PC, something not practical twenty years ago. > > > > > > You seem to be of the mold that if something was done a certain way twenty or fifty years ago it must be the only way to do something today. That frankly is BS. Much of the design of steel boats have carried over from wood boats of the past. Not because that was the best way to use the materials but simply because it required minimal effort. All I'm saying is that you obviously came to this forum with a closed mind. > > > > > > So instead of looking for an argument that no one here wants take your skills and analyze the designs structural soundness. In other words add to the forum instead of creating trouble. After all you say you are qualified to do so. > > > > > > As a side note please explain all the well engineered ships that have sunk this year or last year. Many events send ships to see Davey Jones. We live in a in perfect world that is never free of risk. > > > > > > David A Frantz > > > > > > websterindustro@ > > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > > > On Jul 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Daniel Skira wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > Thank you for your post. > > > > > > > > I quote you: > > > > " but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > > > > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > > > > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > > > > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > > > > statements. > > > > > > > > I agree with you, and I do what you say for a leaving, it's call naval architecture. > > > > Nothing dogmatic, just plain and simple calculation and good design, controled design. > > > > And yes I examine the evidence, only the real evidence. > > > > > > > > I quote you: > > > > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > > > > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > > > > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > > > > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > > > > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > > > > > > > > Of course its not perfect, but very close too. You should know that if you are a naval architect. I just know what is working for a long period of time, and mostly I know that I decide the shape, I don't let a piece of steel decided for me. > > > > I never saw a line drawing with all the necessary calculation and the proof that the piece of steel on the floor is the same as the line drawing. > > > > I saw only one construction drawing, and honnestly I will never built a boat with this kind of engineering. > > > > And how you know yourself that it is the best way to design and built a boat? > > > > Do you have some concrete evidence, or it is just what say Brent? > > > > You are right to question me, but also question everybody. > > > > It is good to be suspicious, and on that I agree to look at thousand of yacht going around the world. > > > > You should do the same, it is interresting. > > > > A good debate is always proof of the good health of a group! > > > > Cheers > > > > Daniel > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull construction > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:06:23PM -0000, Daniel wrote: > > > >> I think the type of hull, called origami, as presented by Brent is not > > > >> suitable for long ocean crossing due to some lake of engineering > > > >> design. > > > > > > > > [laugh] Welcome to the group, Daniel. You'll fit right in. > > > > > > > > Perhaps you should consider the fact that Brent's boats have been sailed > > > > across oceans in every kind of weather, have been run up on reefs with > > > > minimal to no damage, and have generally stood the test of time and salt > > > > water. I realize that you have beliefs that you treasure - > > > > > > > >> The hull must be renforced with frames, floors, gusset, to transmit > > > >> safely the load from the ballast to the shroud. > > > > > > > > - but an approach that's based on science (as opposed to prejudice) > > > > holds _facts_ as the primary source of information and discards > > > > beliefs when they're proven false. In this case, I'd suggest examining > > > > the evidence and considering it before making this kind of dogmatic > > > > statements. > > > > > > > >> It seams the presnet design fail short of good and proven arrengement. > > > > > > > > "Good and proven" does not necessarily mean "perfect" - and naval > > > > architecture is not yet a perfect science by far. What you know is _a_ > > > > way to build boats that can survive in the ocean; you can't claim to > > > > know "the one true way". Again, I suggest examining the real-world > > > > evidence rather than holding onto outdated ideas. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 23688|23613|2010-07-16 15:42:54|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hull construction|On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 07:27:07PM +0200, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > > BTW, somewhat related to metal boats ... > My cnc mill is finally operative. > Shop built by me from scratch to make boat parts. > 2000 kg, 600 parts, 16k hours. > > Now I need to finish the slatted table. > I have 5 pieces of 30x80 mm tool steel as the slats, 1600 mm wide (the > table is 2.4 m but I am only using the first 90 cm so far). > > And next week should get linear slides from korea to put the table on. > Then I can mill hatches in one setup to gas-tight specs. Wow. I'm not often envious of someone else's skills, but this definitely does the job. :) > I am using a Bp M-head as the spindle, with a Hitach 2.2 kW VFD. > The motor and mill head are about 50 years old, and run almost noiselessly. Makes you wonder: why can't they produce equipment of that quality anymore? When I was at Hughes Aircraft in California, we had a machine shop that we could use with a bunch of equipment from the 1950s and 1960s. Man, that stuff was smmmmoooth. I used to _love_ working on that mill (never got nearly as good with the lathe, but enjoyed that too.) Haven't seen anything like it since - nothing but cheap shoddy Chinese-made crap that rattles and breaks. Makes me wish I had a 100'-long boat and a couple of million bucks so I could carry a shop like that. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23689|23689|2010-07-16 15:57:50|BrdbMc@aol.com|(no subject)|www.bsb5.menhealthcom.com| 23690|23689|2010-07-16 16:15:16|Ben Okopnik|Re: |On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 03:56:20PM -0400, BrdbMc@... wrote: > www.bsb5.menhealthcom.com I've let "Mikeafloat" know that his system is sending spam, and that he should check for viruses. Sucks when that happens with a real, contributing list member... -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23691|23613|2010-07-16 16:53:21|sitefix|simple challenge to danny|danny my neighbor across the street was a retired DuPont engineer. had an ancient mill, 2 laths, drill press and a couple grinders and boxes of tool dies/knifes whatever they are called for the mill and the lath. an old wirery fellow, nice chap, made miniature (4')replica working steam engines for his hobby. he liked the extra work. he was a true artist and very gifted. i dunno how he got the lathe in and out of his basement.(he died, kids sold most everything) anyways, some folks like tradition and old time stuff. i am bout 50ish or so, i like folk fiddle. i make a little noise with it sometime because i like to. my wife plays classical cello, high brow school background, teaches strings all over the peninsula. she struggles improvising because of the way she learned in college. but hey, here's the deal danny. i be thinking that maybe you are off on the wrong track and you have jumped into issues that are common from folks with your background. take a step back, as you said in your post, it's a boat. address this group is a manner of true interest to learn, and not just criticize or voice your opinion and I think you could get a lot of information that may change your mind in many areas. I challenge you to: 1) list out three (3) things that you consider deficiencies in the general origami design. 2) do not state why you think they are deficient. 3) relax, have a cool one, and see some of the constructive post that you will find in response. Manny folks on this site have some really varied backgrounds and experiences. My neighbor and friend who owns a commercial architectural business that specializes in schools and governmental buildings has shown me that there are certain frames of mind that can not think outside the box, mostly because it usually cost them money and reputations for not following traditional and accepted methods. Basically the fear factor! After years of a solid friendship, and many margaritas and reverse ratios bloody marys, he has learned to appreciate and solicit my opinion when he is smoke jumping problems. I have had to do some emergency / unorthodox construction that was "accepted" because of the situation. He likes to "run the numbers" and check what I did afterwords and would give approvals and chuckle, saying that "he wished he could get away with that". I am challenging you to observe, not critically yet, but curiously, this method, and do a bit more research in a non challenging way until you have some "facts". you seem to not take brents word but call his reference to the structural soundness of the hulls as stories. You will not get anywhere like that. I do not think anyone here is going to try to mislead you, and i do not think you will find a cult here unless you call a bunch of K-I-S-S die-hards a cult. give it a try. don't challenge until you have a report and made some friends. "if ya act like an @ss, ya might get treated like one) restate your concern, limit to 3 particular problems that you see and not the method in general. My machinist / engineer friend would not have been happy folding sheet metal, he liked making all the gears and pulley's. maybe this method is not for you, not your pleasure, but don't try to bring it down without proven reason and then not except any rebuttal. Maybe there are some folks here that can help you get past the fear factor. eeek, i am procrastinating getting under a house to change a main, then hanging a new ceiling fan in a different house where the lady is gone and there is no a/c. sorry so wordy, i also got 3 acres to cut. ask me if i wanna spend 2 years or 8 months building a new boat by myself. ps- ya mite wanna consider yer spell checker a wee bit. frere pere| 23692|23613|2010-07-16 17:49:42|Denis Buggy|Re: simple challenge to danny|--DANEY wELCUME TU DE GROUP AND TANKS FOR RESCUSCUING US FROM DE SOLOR POWERED TIOLET AND CKIN RANCH DISKUSSION. DE LAST POST WAS FRUM FRERE PERE WHICH WAS GRATE ADVISE EXCEPT FUR DE LAST LINE --IGNORE DAT BIT WHATEVER YU DU COS ITLLL ROB YU OF YOUR SOUL AND ART AND YUR ABILITY TU KUMNIKATE EVERYTING WE KNEED TU NO .. I HAV A FEW SCREWS LOOSE MYSELF AND IM JUST SETLING IN TU DIS GRUPE COZ DERE ARE SUM HANDPIKED PRIZEWINNERS HERE TU. ALREDY TANKS AGAIN DENIS BUGGY ps- ya mite wanna consider yer spell checker a wee bit. frere pere [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23694|23613|2010-07-16 19:35:50|Paul Wilson|Re: Hull construction|Denial, According to you, "This blue-water double ended schooner has been designed for a family of four who plan to sail the oceans." It is not a schooner by the way. A schooner has the forward mast shorter than the aft mast. I am surprised an experienced naval architect and boat builder could get this wrong. Anyway, is this the boat you want to be in with a lee shore and 40 or 50 knots of wind? If you think this is safe for a family of 4 to sail offshore, you need some more sea time. Yacht designers should be made to sail their own designs before making such unrealistic claims. Have you ever actually sailed offshore? Cheers, Paul P.S. This has been fun. Ben, could you give him some more rope? Daniel Skira wrote: > > Poor man. > Did you see the plans, all the plans. > No of course. you just make an ininformed jugdgement call. > Daniel > > --- On Fri, 7/16/10, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > From: Paul Wilson > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull construction > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, July 16, 2010, 2:40 AM > > >From looking at the designs, it is obvious the designer has never done > a long passage to windward. The "44 Bluewater Cruiser" would be a > painfully slow and break the spirit of the the crew, in my opinion. I > don't know anyone seriously sailing offshore in boats like this > anymore. Why not have a tough boat that can actually sail? I don't > get it. > > Paul > > Matt Malone wrote: > > Brent, now you make me wonder about your seamanship.... ;) > > > > For those who are interested, Google dskira... I found this site: > > > > > > > > http://www.skirayachtdesign.com/ > > > > > > > > Some are pretty to my eye, some are down right ugly to my eye. There > is some suggestions of more detailed drawings. Other than the one I > see under construction in his back yard on the skira and other sites, > I do not see any photographs of built boats. It is easy to say > something is well designed if it was never built. There are two > designs with a link to a ship builder's site, only one of the two > sites appears to advertize the design as one they might make... I > would be curious to see photographs of built boats -- there must be > some somewhere -- photographs that is. > > > > > > > > Honestly, I find the brilliance of the BS designs to be in the ease > of construction. The hull is, a lot more than you would expect for the > effort, but not exactly pretty to my eye. Gosh, the overhead in these > Skira designs, a designer, a boatyard, all that framing. These Skira > designs must be expensive boats. Out of my budget range unfortunately. > I think Brent has found a much larger group of consumers. Weld in a > little more steel if it seems too flexible. Easily done. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.839 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3008 - Release Date: 07/16/10 06:35:00 > > | 23695|23613|2010-07-16 22:27:24|sitefix|Re: simple challenge to danny|Hmm, Well, this is off topic, but here it is. There are: Sailors- Seafarers-Cruisers- Liveaboards – wannabees- Naval Arckeetects and "insert here". Yeh ok, some may be flying two maybe three or more colors. Maybe at times, some pass through a little of each. To put it bluntly, it doesn't matter what one calls oneself. It is how others see him. The state, rather goodly or badly may title someone, but we have all seen how that can prove ignorant/problematic. An important query was- how much sea time did danny have. what is his real experience on a great circle route. How many months or years in a row living in a hull and going somewhere. This is an important question that I am not trying to be negative or mean with, just curious as to actual sea time, line handling, anchor setting, passage making, "insert here" other than behind a desk on a land based office rehashing "proven designs and methods". Maybe he has lots and speaks from personal experience. I am thinking that one should be careful with criticism of those that "do" when one just talks. There are some people that you just enjoy their company. They can brake yer favorite "insert here" and somehow you just shake yer head and can't believe it, smile at them and get over it quickly. You look forward to enjoying a chess game, a bottle of fermented grape juice, or "insert here" and ya just know that they are the salt of the earth and you wanna do what ever you can for them because there are too few of them about and it just makes ya happy to do so. Ya might recognize them anchored in a cove and look to see if there is room to join them for a while. These folks are not out to rob, take, deceive, corrupt etc etc "insert here". I can't really put a name on them, but you know what I mean. Then, there are the "others" at the other end of the spectrum. The black clouds. Them that when you see them anchored in the only safe holding area, you keep slopping along even in a blow to find anywhere else because you just don't want their negative vibes robbing you of what precious few happy ones that you may have gained over the last few weeks. Nor them taking advantage of what ever else they can take advantage of you with. Kinda reminds me of the old one: "like dude, you be harshin my mellow". Anyways, I think the strong individual opinions encountered here are most likely from the fierce independent nature of this group. And there lies an answer and key as to why so much fuss is made when such intruding attitudes crank off a few rounds. Trolls???? Who would wanna troll a origami forum?? Ah, maybe my naivety, but I don't think so. Danny is either foolishly trying to drum up business for himself or wisely trying to prove to himself that origami may actually be a viable option that he never considered in all his years of designing. Basically, the independent types here have found something that works towards their self sufficiency with this method. They have found kindred spirits in others who value economical decisions and sacrifices to get things done. I be thinking that not just danny, but many like him truly desire such, but just have such a difficult time with such a drastic difference to their comfort zone and life's education. Fear factor. Some never get over fear of the dark. They miss out on the beauty and joy of the stars and constellations, moon rise at 1 am, phosphorous wake so bright you can read by it. Pity the likes. But if everyone was all for it, then there would be less private places to enjoy the solitude or intimacy of the "finds" that we may enjoy or take for granted. I used to think that you did not really know someone until you sweat and bled with them. I now am certain that true companions are few, and must have at least shared in some of the experiences that have molded oneself and and have proven to observe similar values that make up our personalities. These brent boats seem to be the best thing going to enable the "average joe or jane" to actually bring them into a circle of experiences that most only dream of. Times are tough, and not a lot of light at the end of the tunnel. I dare anyone to even suggest another design/ build method that proves as safe and reliable and economical as what has been put forth on this site. There are certainly "better" boats out there. But there are always better cars, homes, airplanes, wives, naval arckeetechs, "insert here". But I don't think you will find a better boat for the purpose that the brent boat was designed for. No I am not speaking as a Naval Arkeetect. But I do have a wee bit of experience in different vessels, hulls, homes, planes, trucks etc etc. (same wife after 26 years). I have searched a great deal and am glad I came upon the origami design and site with the help here available. I be thinking that some folks wont be happy without a Shannon or Pac Sea or the likes thereof. Simply put that this origami design is not for everyone. Some need lots of teak to play with and to give them an excuse not to go anywhere because it needs work or isn't dry. Hah, more room for me on the sea. Thanks Danny, you have helped me consider and confirm a few things about what and why and how. I look forward to "meeting" a few that I have observed here. Characters all, possibly some friends to be found. So many "things" robbing us of our potential and desires. Anti social behavior always is a motivator for me to realize my priorities and alignments. It is so nice to be able to select thems that ye be around. 3 acres cut, but didn't get under the house or the fan up. Con mucho gusto a todos y gracias para esta bueno tiempo de charlar. Hasta de luegos amigos. Nos alons appronder le bon vie. Merci bucu et al. cheers Pere --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > --DANEY wELCUME TU DE GROUP AND TANKS FOR RESCUSCUING US FROM DE SOLOR POWERED TIOLET AND CKIN RANCH DISKUSSION. > DE LAST POST WAS FRUM FRERE PERE WHICH WAS GRATE ADVISE EXCEPT FUR DE LAST LINE --IGNORE DAT BIT WHATEVER YU DU COS ITLLL ROB YU OF YOUR SOUL AND ART AND YUR ABILITY TU KUMNIKATE EVERYTING WE KNEED TU NO .. > I HAV A FEW SCREWS LOOSE MYSELF AND IM JUST SETLING IN TU DIS GRUPE COZ DERE ARE SUM HANDPIKED PRIZEWINNERS HERE TU. ALREDY TANKS AGAIN DENIS BUGGY > > > > > ps- ya mite wanna consider yer spell checker a wee bit. > > frere pere > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23696|23696|2010-07-16 23:50:02|jpronk1|What The!!!|Wow I've been off line for a couple of days and missed the start of Danny boys re-education of the group. I think I need to go out and look for some trees to cut down to build a high-tech Danny boy boat. James P.S. I'm looking for some roofing tar, hemp rope and cotton for my Danny boy boat.| 23697|23613|2010-07-17 01:02:47|Paul Wilson|Re: simple challenge to danny|Awesome posting. Thanks Pere. sitefix wrote: > > > Hmm, > > Well, this is off topic, but here it is. > There are: > Sailors- Seafarers-Cruisers- Liveaboards – wannabees- Naval > Arckeetects and "insert here". > > Yeh ok, some may be flying two maybe three or more colors. Maybe at > times, some pass through a little of each. > > To put it bluntly, it doesn't matter what one calls oneself. It is how > others see him. The state, rather goodly or badly may title someone, > but we have all seen how that can prove ignorant/problematic. An > important query was- how much sea time did danny have. what is his > real experience on a great circle route. How many months or years in a > row living in a hull and going somewhere. This is an important > question that I am not trying to be negative or mean with, just > curious as to actual sea time, line handling, anchor setting, passage > making, "insert here" other than behind a desk on a land based office > rehashing "proven designs and methods". Maybe he has lots and speaks > from personal experience. I am thinking that one should be careful > with criticism of those that "do" when one just talks. > > There are some people that you just enjoy their company. They can > brake yer favorite "insert here" and somehow you just shake yer head > and can't believe it, smile at them and get over it quickly. You look > forward to enjoying a chess game, a bottle of fermented grape juice, > or "insert here" and ya just know that they are the salt of the earth > and you wanna do what ever you can for them because there are too few > of them about and it just makes ya happy to do so. Ya might recognize > them anchored in a cove and look to see if there is room to join them > for a while. These folks are not out to rob, take, deceive, corrupt > etc etc "insert here". I can't really put a name on them, but you know > what I mean. > > Then, there are the "others" at the other end of the spectrum. The > black clouds. Them that when you see them anchored in the only safe > holding area, you keep slopping along even in a blow to find anywhere > else because you just don't want their negative vibes robbing you of > what precious few happy ones that you may have gained over the last > few weeks. Nor them taking advantage of what ever else they can take > advantage of you with. > > Kinda reminds me of the old one: "like dude, you be harshin my mellow". > > Anyways, I think the strong individual opinions encountered here are > most likely from the fierce independent nature of this group. And > there lies an answer and key as to why so much fuss is made when such > intruding attitudes crank off a few rounds. > Trolls???? Who would wanna troll a origami forum?? Ah, maybe my > naivety, but I don't think so. Danny is either foolishly trying to > drum up business for himself or wisely trying to prove to himself that > origami may actually be a viable option that he never considered in > all his years of designing. > > Basically, the independent types here have found something that works > towards their self sufficiency with this method. They have found > kindred spirits in others who value economical decisions and > sacrifices to get things done. I be thinking that not just danny, but > many like him truly desire such, but just have such a difficult time > with such a drastic difference to their comfort zone and life's > education. Fear factor. Some never get over fear of the dark. They > miss out on the beauty and joy of the stars and constellations, moon > rise at 1 am, phosphorous wake so bright you can read by it. > > Pity the likes. But if everyone was all for it, then there would be > less private places to enjoy the solitude or intimacy of the "finds" > that we may enjoy or take for granted. I used to think that you did > not really know someone until you sweat and bled with them. I now am > certain that true companions are few, and must have at least shared in > some of the experiences that have molded oneself and and have proven > to observe similar values that make up our personalities. > > These brent boats seem to be the best thing going to enable the > "average joe or jane" to actually bring them into a circle of > experiences that most only dream of. Times are tough, and not a lot of > light at the end of the tunnel. I dare anyone to even suggest another > design/ build method that proves as safe and reliable and economical > as what has been put forth on this site. There are certainly "better" > boats out there. But there are always better cars, homes, airplanes, > wives, naval arckeetechs, "insert here". But I don't think you will > find a better boat for the purpose that the brent boat was designed > for. No I am not speaking as a Naval Arkeetect. But I do have a wee > bit of experience in different vessels, hulls, homes, planes, trucks > etc etc. (same wife after 26 years). I have searched a great deal and > am glad I came upon the origami design and site with the help here > available. > > I be thinking that some folks wont be happy without a Shannon or Pac > Sea or the likes thereof. Simply put that this origami design is not > for everyone. Some need lots of teak to play with and to give them an > excuse not to go anywhere because it needs work or isn't dry. Hah, > more room for me on the sea. > > Thanks Danny, you have helped me consider and confirm a few things > about what and why and how. > > I look forward to "meeting" a few that I have observed here. > Characters all, possibly some friends to be found. So many "things" > robbing us of our potential and desires. Anti social behavior always > is a motivator for me to realize my priorities and alignments. It is > so nice to be able to select thems that ye be around. > > 3 acres cut, but didn't get under the house or the fan up. > > Con mucho gusto a todos y gracias para esta bueno tiempo de charlar. > Hasta de luegos amigos. Nos alons appronder le bon vie. Merci bucu et al. > > cheers > > Pere > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > > > --DANEY wELCUME TU DE GROUP AND TANKS FOR RESCUSCUING US FROM DE > SOLOR POWERED TIOLET AND CKIN RANCH DISKUSSION. > > DE LAST POST WAS FRUM FRERE PERE WHICH WAS GRATE ADVISE EXCEPT FUR > DE LAST LINE --IGNORE DAT BIT WHATEVER YU DU COS ITLLL ROB YU OF YOUR > SOUL AND ART AND YUR ABILITY TU KUMNIKATE EVERYTING WE KNEED TU NO .. > > I HAV A FEW SCREWS LOOSE MYSELF AND IM JUST SETLING IN TU DIS GRUPE > COZ DERE ARE SUM HANDPIKED PRIZEWINNERS HERE TU. ALREDY TANKS AGAIN > DENIS BUGGY > > > > > > > > > > ps- ya mite wanna consider yer spell checker a wee bit. > > > > frere pere > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.839 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3009 - Release Date: 07/16/10 18:35:00 > > | 23698|23613|2010-07-17 08:42:47|sitefix|Re: simple challenge to danny|eeeh gads mon, did i really scribble all that????? sorry for the ramblins and such. just goes to show you what one will do to avoid working. hah! i do apologize for not proofing and putting into a better thought progression and such. this morning i sorta reviewed and grimaced at what i said, and after a cup of coffee i will finish with somewhat of a different take. OK- so, i am thinking that maybe there is a third scenario. ***Trolls???? Who would wanna troll a origami forum?? Ah, maybe my naivety, but I don't think so. Danny is either foolishly trying to drum up business for himself or wisely trying to prove to himself that origami may actually be a viable option that he never considered in all his years of designing.*** 3rd- Someone is bored, not much business because the economy is down and their ego is a bit deflated and they need a pick me up and are trying to do so by walking on other peoples methods and techniques. So, maybe when the math is done, ben and steve are right. danny is basically trolling sites. not so much as to stir the site up and frustrate the folks there, but to feed his lack of "insert here" because of his lonely predicament. i guess danny is off, banned, what have you. cant really blame the moderator after reviewing such antics. when you see someone overboard and toss them a ring, you cant help it if they flip you off. so maybe you tack back again and ask them if they want help and invite them aboard. You still can't make them get out of the water. oops, there i go again, sorry. danny, my last toss to you here: what kind of person are you, and what do you really want to do, your end motive?? 1-build a boat and go sailing???? This site will help you out, or look forward to decent input from you on your origami project. 2- find more info about the origami design, again, a motley crew to work WITH here if you just maintain a smidgen of respect for other opinions. 3-Hang out semi retired and seek enjoyment via emotional stimulation at others expense. not just trolling, but hijacking time from decent folks who wouldn't do a search and destroy on you or others for lack of better things to do. (curmudgeon)? Do you honestly believe that you see a safety issue that you wish to illuminate and save lives with?? Or do you just like to criticize others who do the best they can with what they have available and the means at hand? them that wont be told they cant do it because they don't have 200K+ to buy a proper boat. i personally think a sprit, about 5 foot or so would be a nice modification. maybe i could influence brent to assist in such with the proper motivating factors in life. but then we are getting away from the basic plan of the vessel, get it together and use it in the most easy economical manner philosophy where the trade offs have ALREADY BEEN CONSIDERED and weighed out. again, as mentioned, there is beauty in the design with the adaptabilities and easy manner in which modifications can be made. beef it up all you want if you really think it's a concern. but saying it's gonna fail without such reinforcements when proven otherwise is not really sound without substantial back up. trying to enforce your views, no matter how educated reminds me of "insert here" and leaves me with not so pleasant feelings. especially if the issue has been brought up before and noted by the original designer as an addendum. Get the book, the dvd, the nice pics available, do some further research and you will find that most of your concerns will be alleviated. oh, by the way, if you really want a catamaran, then you are looking at the wrong site. this technique and philosophy ain't for everyone. do you go to cat sites and tell them whats wrong with the "insert here" in such a manner to alienate evryone? do you try to enforce your religious or political views as superior. gee I could really take off on that. aah, nufs enuff. (next paragraph deleted, arent we all lucky) pere think i will go ruin some aluminum.| 23699|23613|2010-07-17 17:09:00|brentswain38|Re: simple challenge to danny|Between the either - or sides of the brain, some have a rheostat, which can adjust to varying shades of gray, some have a toggle switch, which can only define things as "either- or, like-don't like, good-bad, black-white." The rheostat lets one keep in touch, and understand the varying shades of gray that more closely reflect reality. The toggle switch is a lifetime handicap. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > > Hmm, > > Well, this is off topic, but here it is. > There are: > Sailors- Seafarers-Cruisers- Liveaboards – wannabees- Naval Arckeetects and "insert here". > > Yeh ok, some may be flying two maybe three or more colors. Maybe at times, some pass through a little of each. > > To put it bluntly, it doesn't matter what one calls oneself. It is how others see him. The state, rather goodly or badly may title someone, but we have all seen how that can prove ignorant/problematic. An important query was- how much sea time did danny have. what is his real experience on a great circle route. How many months or years in a row living in a hull and going somewhere. This is an important question that I am not trying to be negative or mean with, just curious as to actual sea time, line handling, anchor setting, passage making, "insert here" other than behind a desk on a land based office rehashing "proven designs and methods". Maybe he has lots and speaks from personal experience. I am thinking that one should be careful with criticism of those that "do" when one just talks. > > > There are some people that you just enjoy their company. They can brake yer favorite "insert here" and somehow you just shake yer head and can't believe it, smile at them and get over it quickly. You look forward to enjoying a chess game, a bottle of fermented grape juice, or "insert here" and ya just know that they are the salt of the earth and you wanna do what ever you can for them because there are too few of them about and it just makes ya happy to do so. Ya might recognize them anchored in a cove and look to see if there is room to join them for a while. These folks are not out to rob, take, deceive, corrupt etc etc "insert here". I can't really put a name on them, but you know what I mean. > > Then, there are the "others" at the other end of the spectrum. The black clouds. Them that when you see them anchored in the only safe holding area, you keep slopping along even in a blow to find anywhere else because you just don't want their negative vibes robbing you of what precious few happy ones that you may have gained over the last few weeks. Nor them taking advantage of what ever else they can take advantage of you with. > > Kinda reminds me of the old one: "like dude, you be harshin my mellow". > > Anyways, I think the strong individual opinions encountered here are most likely from the fierce independent nature of this group. And there lies an answer and key as to why so much fuss is made when such intruding attitudes crank off a few rounds. > Trolls???? Who would wanna troll a origami forum?? Ah, maybe my naivety, but I don't think so. Danny is either foolishly trying to drum up business for himself or wisely trying to prove to himself that origami may actually be a viable option that he never considered in all his years of designing. > > Basically, the independent types here have found something that works towards their self sufficiency with this method. They have found kindred spirits in others who value economical decisions and sacrifices to get things done. I be thinking that not just danny, but many like him truly desire such, but just have such a difficult time with such a drastic difference to their comfort zone and life's education. Fear factor. Some never get over fear of the dark. They miss out on the beauty and joy of the stars and constellations, moon rise at 1 am, phosphorous wake so bright you can read by it. > > Pity the likes. But if everyone was all for it, then there would be less private places to enjoy the solitude or intimacy of the "finds" that we may enjoy or take for granted. I used to think that you did not really know someone until you sweat and bled with them. I now am certain that true companions are few, and must have at least shared in some of the experiences that have molded oneself and and have proven to observe similar values that make up our personalities. > > These brent boats seem to be the best thing going to enable the "average joe or jane" to actually bring them into a circle of experiences that most only dream of. Times are tough, and not a lot of light at the end of the tunnel. I dare anyone to even suggest another design/ build method that proves as safe and reliable and economical as what has been put forth on this site. There are certainly "better" boats out there. But there are always better cars, homes, airplanes, wives, naval arckeetechs, "insert here". But I don't think you will find a better boat for the purpose that the brent boat was designed for. No I am not speaking as a Naval Arkeetect. But I do have a wee bit of experience in different vessels, hulls, homes, planes, trucks etc etc. (same wife after 26 years). I have searched a great deal and am glad I came upon the origami design and site with the help here available. > > I be thinking that some folks wont be happy without a Shannon or Pac Sea or the likes thereof. Simply put that this origami design is not for everyone. Some need lots of teak to play with and to give them an excuse not to go anywhere because it needs work or isn't dry. Hah, more room for me on the sea. > > Thanks Danny, you have helped me consider and confirm a few things about what and why and how. > > I look forward to "meeting" a few that I have observed here. Characters all, possibly some friends to be found. So many "things" robbing us of our potential and desires. Anti social behavior always is a motivator for me to realize my priorities and alignments. It is so nice to be able to select thems that ye be around. > > 3 acres cut, but didn't get under the house or the fan up. > > Con mucho gusto a todos y gracias para esta bueno tiempo de charlar. Hasta de luegos amigos. Nos alons appronder le bon vie. Merci bucu et al. > > cheers > > > Pere > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > > > --DANEY wELCUME TU DE GROUP AND TANKS FOR RESCUSCUING US FROM DE SOLOR POWERED TIOLET AND CKIN RANCH DISKUSSION. > > DE LAST POST WAS FRUM FRERE PERE WHICH WAS GRATE ADVISE EXCEPT FUR DE LAST LINE --IGNORE DAT BIT WHATEVER YU DU COS ITLLL ROB YU OF YOUR SOUL AND ART AND YUR ABILITY TU KUMNIKATE EVERYTING WE KNEED TU NO .. > > I HAV A FEW SCREWS LOOSE MYSELF AND IM JUST SETLING IN TU DIS GRUPE COZ DERE ARE SUM HANDPIKED PRIZEWINNERS HERE TU. ALREDY TANKS AGAIN DENIS BUGGY > > > > > > > > > > ps- ya mite wanna consider yer spell checker a wee bit. > > > > frere pere > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 23700|23613|2010-07-17 17:38:50|Ben Okopnik|Re: simple challenge to danny|On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 09:03:08PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Between the either - or sides of the brain, some have a rheostat, > which can adjust to varying shades of gray, some have a toggle switch, > which can only define things as "either- or, like-don't like, > good-bad, black-white." The rheostat lets one keep in touch, and > understand the varying shades of gray that more closely reflect > reality. The toggle switch is a lifetime handicap. Man, isn't *that* the truth. For some reason, I've had a number of these pop into my life in the last couple of days, and I'm getting really, really sick of it. Why is it *so* hard for people to understand that most things (certainly nearly all social questions) are somewhere near the center of the scale - a balance of sorts - rather than out at one of the ends? Just this morning, I ran into a fanatic who wouldn't shut up about his particular brand of religion. Unfortunately, the guy happened to be a sailor who had invited me over to his boat because he ostensibly wanted to learn about sailing the Caribbean. As soon as he figured out that I wasn't into his thing (it was the first thing he brought up as soon as we stepped aboard), he kept trying to drag the conversation back to his topic - and ONLY his topic - despite my telling him that I wasn't interested in arguing about it. In his opinion, since I didn't agree with him 100%, I was The Enemy, and *must* be proven to be wrong (wrong = defeated.) I was glad I brought my own dinghy. A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill Y'know... I was brought up to be polite to strangers - at least initially - and that included being willing to hear them out, and trying to understand their point of view before judging them. I've just revised my definition of politeness; it no longer includes taking the time to hear out crazy people, ones who are clearly rolling on square wheels from the get-go. "Let's drop this topic now - I don't want to engage in it", immediately followed by getting the f!@# out of the area if they disregard my saying that, is much more polite... certainly to myself. I've used up all the minutes I'm ever going to politely listening to the toggle-brained idiots. Maybe that was the lesson I was supposed to learn from all this, eh? If you don't learn your lesson the first time, the universe will kindly teach it to you again. Harder. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23701|23701|2010-07-17 23:54:27|Randy|Fisherman's Splice|Can anyone explain to me or have photo's of what the fishman's splice is. Thanks!| 23702|23701|2010-07-18 11:42:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: Fisherman's Splice|On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 03:51:54AM -0000, Randy wrote: > Can anyone explain to me or have photo's of what the fishman's splice is. Thanks! A Fisherman's Splice is also known as an Anchor Bend. Here's a demo of tying it, from one of my favorite knot sites: http://www.animatedknots.com/anchor/index.php Note the "Comparison" comment below the knot: It is very similar to the Round Turn and Two Half Hitches, so similar that it is doubtful if there is much benefit in using one knot over the other. If either knot were being used to secure an anchor line to an anchor, most people would add an extra one or two half hitches. Many would also seize the bitter end to the standing end for additional security. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23703|23701|2010-07-18 14:38:58|Randy|Re: Fisherman's Splice|Thanks Ben! Nice site. Brent and some others have mentioned a Fishermans splice for standing rigging. Are you familiar with that? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 03:51:54AM -0000, Randy wrote: > > Can anyone explain to me or have photo's of what the fishman's splice is. Thanks! > > A Fisherman's Splice is also known as an Anchor Bend. Here's a demo of > tying it, from one of my favorite knot sites: > > http://www.animatedknots.com/anchor/index.php > > Note the "Comparison" comment below the knot: > > It is very similar to the Round Turn and Two Half Hitches, so similar > that it is doubtful if there is much benefit in using one knot over the > other. If either knot were being used to secure an anchor line to an > anchor, most people would add an extra one or two half hitches. Many > would also seize the bitter end to the standing end for additional > security. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23704|23701|2010-07-18 22:51:56|brentswain38|Re: Fisherman's Splice|For the anchor rode, I simply pass the rope thru the first chain link and tie an overhand knot in it. I keep an eye on it for chafe and at the first sign of cafe I pull a bit more thru and tie another knot in it. For rigging , most local fishermen have wrapped the wire around a thimble then took one strand out and wrapped it around the ends, then took another out and did the same, etc etc until all the strands are used up. The springyness of high tensile rigging makes this difficult, and have heard of them comming unwound under load. Low tensile wire is far to soft for a sailing rig. Fishboats don't have anywhere near the loads on them. I prefer to take 1x7 high tensile wire, slide a couple of aluminium nicopress sleeves on, then separate out three stands and lay them back up in the opposite direction from the remaining four strands, around the other four strands, then put the thimble in and force one nicopress sleeve down to hold the thimble in , squish it down, and use the second one on the end of the splice. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Randy" wrote: > > Thanks Ben! Nice site. Brent and some others have mentioned a Fishermans splice for standing rigging. Are you familiar with that? > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 03:51:54AM -0000, Randy wrote: > > > Can anyone explain to me or have photo's of what the fishman's splice is. Thanks! > > > > A Fisherman's Splice is also known as an Anchor Bend. Here's a demo of > > tying it, from one of my favorite knot sites: > > > > http://www.animatedknots.com/anchor/index.php > > > > Note the "Comparison" comment below the knot: > > > > It is very similar to the Round Turn and Two Half Hitches, so similar > > that it is doubtful if there is much benefit in using one knot over the > > other. If either knot were being used to secure an anchor line to an > > anchor, most people would add an extra one or two half hitches. Many > > would also seize the bitter end to the standing end for additional > > security. > > > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > | 23705|23701|2010-07-19 12:14:55|Randy|Re: Fisherman's Splice|Thanks Brent! That helps out tremendously --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > For the anchor rode, I simply pass the rope thru the first chain link and tie an overhand knot in it. I keep an eye on it for chafe and at the first sign of cafe I pull a bit more thru and tie another knot in it. > For rigging , most local fishermen have wrapped the wire around a thimble then took one strand out and wrapped it around the ends, then took another out and did the same, etc etc until all the strands are used up. The springyness of high tensile rigging makes this difficult, and have heard of them comming unwound under load. Low tensile wire is far to soft for a sailing rig. Fishboats don't have anywhere near the loads on them. > I prefer to take 1x7 high tensile wire, slide a couple of aluminium nicopress sleeves on, then separate out three stands and lay them back up in the opposite direction from the remaining four strands, around the other four strands, then put the thimble in and force one nicopress sleeve down to hold the thimble in , squish it down, and use the second one on the end of the splice. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Randy" wrote: > > > > Thanks Ben! Nice site. Brent and some others have mentioned a Fishermans splice for standing rigging. Are you familiar with that? > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 03:51:54AM -0000, Randy wrote: > > > > Can anyone explain to me or have photo's of what the fishman's splice is. Thanks! > > > > > > A Fisherman's Splice is also known as an Anchor Bend. Here's a demo of > > > tying it, from one of my favorite knot sites: > > > > > > http://www.animatedknots.com/anchor/index.php > > > > > > Note the "Comparison" comment below the knot: > > > > > > It is very similar to the Round Turn and Two Half Hitches, so similar > > > that it is doubtful if there is much benefit in using one knot over the > > > other. If either knot were being used to secure an anchor line to an > > > anchor, most people would add an extra one or two half hitches. Many > > > would also seize the bitter end to the standing end for additional > > > security. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > | 23706|23701|2010-07-19 12:15:25|Randy|Re: Fisherman's Splice|Thanks Brent! That helps out tremendously --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > For the anchor rode, I simply pass the rope thru the first chain link and tie an overhand knot in it. I keep an eye on it for chafe and at the first sign of cafe I pull a bit more thru and tie another knot in it. > For rigging , most local fishermen have wrapped the wire around a thimble then took one strand out and wrapped it around the ends, then took another out and did the same, etc etc until all the strands are used up. The springyness of high tensile rigging makes this difficult, and have heard of them comming unwound under load. Low tensile wire is far to soft for a sailing rig. Fishboats don't have anywhere near the loads on them. > I prefer to take 1x7 high tensile wire, slide a couple of aluminium nicopress sleeves on, then separate out three stands and lay them back up in the opposite direction from the remaining four strands, around the other four strands, then put the thimble in and force one nicopress sleeve down to hold the thimble in , squish it down, and use the second one on the end of the splice. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Randy" wrote: > > > > Thanks Ben! Nice site. Brent and some others have mentioned a Fishermans splice for standing rigging. Are you familiar with that? > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 03:51:54AM -0000, Randy wrote: > > > > Can anyone explain to me or have photo's of what the fishman's splice is. Thanks! > > > > > > A Fisherman's Splice is also known as an Anchor Bend. Here's a demo of > > > tying it, from one of my favorite knot sites: > > > > > > http://www.animatedknots.com/anchor/index.php > > > > > > Note the "Comparison" comment below the knot: > > > > > > It is very similar to the Round Turn and Two Half Hitches, so similar > > > that it is doubtful if there is much benefit in using one knot over the > > > other. If either knot were being used to secure an anchor line to an > > > anchor, most people would add an extra one or two half hitches. Many > > > would also seize the bitter end to the standing end for additional > > > security. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > | 23707|23613|2010-07-19 16:44:50|wild_explorer|Re: Hull construction|Hm-m-m... I missed it all... Very strange post for NA... Not this one below, but first several ones. I had questions about Brent's boats too, when I joined this forum and I knew nothing about boat building/design at all back then. Still have some questions. It was OK for me as a beginner to ask all kind of "stupid" questions. But for NA say something without clarification what is the reason for such question/statement....??? I would agree, there is not enough information about Brent's boats "out of the box" just looking online. It DOES require some effort to get information about it. At least need to have Brent's book, Alex's DVD, Carl's picture CDs and read this forum (most helpful source). Many things are "not documented" and information are transferred from "builder to builder" on personal level as "building tips". You can get full picture, if you are interested enough in this design (maybe it is good). Brent's design has a lot of potential for DIY boat builder (which was outlined in previous posts). When I could not find answers, I had to do my own research, learn something and come up with some calculations and numbers. And THEN ask the questions with numbers on hands. My numbers can be wrong sometimes, but it is something as the start for discussion. As it was pointed out before by several members of this site (who has engineering degree or experience with metal work), IF you are real NA, you can provide related engineering calculations. What could be easier? I am not buying that Naval Architecture is much different than any structural engineering - it just have some specifics which could be learned in short period of time and applied to boats. Brent has his own experience. Most people could learn Naval Architecture discipline if they want to. There is nothing special about it. I worked with several people who could produce brilliant solutions without any degree. It just worked. On another hand, engineers with degree were unable to solve those problems. P.S. The formulas, charts, programs, etc... are written/made by some extraordinary people, to make it easier for us to apply their knowledge in real life without asking them all the time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Skira wrote: > > You are not far from the truth. It is what I was asking from the beginning. > You seams to be the only one who understand. > But I would like to point out something: could you show me the interior of several origami hull built, because my enquirie show that a lot of builder added some part to strengtht the hull. > Now we are talking about 36' sailing boat. Period. we are not talking something else. Right? > Asd for the weight estimate, it show that a frames hull and an origami hull are in the same weight braket. To put frames it take 7 days, not a real time wasted. > But the unknown is the REAL construction by owners. what they did exactly, and what is the real proof that you can control the shape from a lines plan, and you end up with the shape YOU want, not the one the steel want. > So I don't see why everybody treat me like shit because I ask NORMAL question. > Do they have something to hide.? > Even the moderator find my question to pertinantes, so he want to kick me out. > Talk about a control freak. > I ALWAYS talked about boat, only boat. > Daniel | 23708|23701|2010-07-19 21:34:04|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Fisherman's Splice|Brent, I was taught that the name of what you did is a Flemish Eye. I used to do this all the time on wire rope, it's how wire rope slings are made. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fisherman's Splice > For the anchor rode, I simply pass the rope thru the first chain link and > tie an overhand knot in it. I keep an eye on it for chafe and at the first > sign of cafe I pull a bit more thru and tie another knot in it. > For rigging , most local fishermen have wrapped the wire around a thimble > then took one strand out and wrapped it around the ends, then took another > out and did the same, etc etc until all the strands are used up. The > springyness of high tensile rigging makes this difficult, and have heard > of them comming unwound under load. Low tensile wire is far to soft for a > sailing rig. Fishboats don't have anywhere near the loads on them. > I prefer to take 1x7 high tensile wire, slide a couple of aluminium > nicopress sleeves on, then separate out three stands and lay them back up > in the opposite direction from the remaining four strands, around the > other four strands, then put the thimble in and force one nicopress sleeve > down to hold the thimble in , squish it down, and use the second one on > the end of the splice. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Randy" wrote: >> >> Thanks Ben! Nice site. Brent and some others have mentioned a Fishermans >> splice for standing rigging. Are you familiar with that? >> >> >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: >> > >> > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 03:51:54AM -0000, Randy wrote: >> > > Can anyone explain to me or have photo's of what the fishman's splice >> > > is. Thanks! >> > >> > A Fisherman's Splice is also known as an Anchor Bend. Here's a demo of >> > tying it, from one of my favorite knot sites: >> > >> > http://www.animatedknots.com/anchor/index.php >> > >> > Note the "Comparison" comment below the knot: >> > >> > It is very similar to the Round Turn and Two Half Hitches, so similar >> > that it is doubtful if there is much benefit in using one knot over >> > the >> > other. If either knot were being used to secure an anchor line to an >> > anchor, most people would add an extra one or two half hitches. Many >> > would also seize the bitter end to the standing end for additional >> > security. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > OKOPNIK CONSULTING >> > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business >> > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming >> > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com >> > >> > > > | 23709|23701|2010-07-19 23:16:34|brentswain38|Re: Fisherman's Splice|Flemish eye, molly hogan, farm splice , etc etc.,it has a lot of different names. The beauty of it is it is quick, simple, and doesn't fatigue the wire at all. It is the only way to make aluminium and copper sleeves 100% reliable. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > I was taught that the name of what you did is a Flemish Eye. I used to do > this all the time on wire rope, it's how wire rope slings are made. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:47 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fisherman's Splice > > > > For the anchor rode, I simply pass the rope thru the first chain link and > > tie an overhand knot in it. I keep an eye on it for chafe and at the first > > sign of cafe I pull a bit more thru and tie another knot in it. > > For rigging , most local fishermen have wrapped the wire around a thimble > > then took one strand out and wrapped it around the ends, then took another > > out and did the same, etc etc until all the strands are used up. The > > springyness of high tensile rigging makes this difficult, and have heard > > of them comming unwound under load. Low tensile wire is far to soft for a > > sailing rig. Fishboats don't have anywhere near the loads on them. > > I prefer to take 1x7 high tensile wire, slide a couple of aluminium > > nicopress sleeves on, then separate out three stands and lay them back up > > in the opposite direction from the remaining four strands, around the > > other four strands, then put the thimble in and force one nicopress sleeve > > down to hold the thimble in , squish it down, and use the second one on > > the end of the splice. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Randy" wrote: > >> > >> Thanks Ben! Nice site. Brent and some others have mentioned a Fishermans > >> splice for standing rigging. Are you familiar with that? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > >> > > >> > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 03:51:54AM -0000, Randy wrote: > >> > > Can anyone explain to me or have photo's of what the fishman's splice > >> > > is. Thanks! > >> > > >> > A Fisherman's Splice is also known as an Anchor Bend. Here's a demo of > >> > tying it, from one of my favorite knot sites: > >> > > >> > http://www.animatedknots.com/anchor/index.php > >> > > >> > Note the "Comparison" comment below the knot: > >> > > >> > It is very similar to the Round Turn and Two Half Hitches, so similar > >> > that it is doubtful if there is much benefit in using one knot over > >> > the > >> > other. If either knot were being used to secure an anchor line to an > >> > anchor, most people would add an extra one or two half hitches. Many > >> > would also seize the bitter end to the standing end for additional > >> > security. > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > >> > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > >> > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > >> > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > >> > > >> > > > > > > > | 23710|23710|2010-07-20 19:13:20|coreyzzzz2000|Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|Hi all, I have been reading these digests for years now trying to learn about origami boats and sailing in general. I own a 19' twin keeler that was built in the 80's of plywood and fiberglass. We trailer her to our destinations and sail on primarily land locked lakes. It would be nice to have a boat that allowed the head room to stand up inside and the security of a steel hull to withstand the vagaries of nature and fate. Someday I would like to be able to sail this boat to the South Pacific, New Zealand, or wherever we might fancy. I am sure that you have touched on this before, but my memory isn't that woohoo. Would like to know your opinions on the feasability of building Brent with a retractable mast (if it is even doable). (Maybe use the retractable while on landlocked lakes and at a later date swap it for a permanently mounted mast after the boat is launched on the coast.) I see in Brent's book that the beam is approximately 10'on a 31' and 8'2" on the 26'. There are many boaters locally that trailer boats wider than 10' on a regular basis. I witnessed a personal pick up truck hauling one near 12' yesterday (Wide Load permits and banners in place.) Assuming a truck that had GCVW great enough to cover the safe transport, is trailering a Brent Boat feasible at all? (I have a dually diesel rated to 24K lbs.) Is the 26' going to allow a 6 foot tall person room to move about comfortably? I am really wanting to build a 31', but all opinions are welcome. My original plan has been to hire a lowboy to haul it out to the coast when the time came, but it would be nice to use it until that day comes. Thanks in advance.| 23711|23710|2010-07-21 07:25:48|kimdxx|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|Hi Corey ... I've just started to build one of Brent's twin-keel 26-footers. Its dimensions are such that, here in Australia, it can be trailed anywhere without the need for any special permits or anything - just put it on a trailer and go! Its twin-keel configuration means that an ordinary flatbed trailer could be used, rather than a more expensive "special" boat trailer. It weighs only about 3 ton, so a really heavy towing vehicle shouldn't be required either. However, I don't intend to trailer mine. It will always be in the water; but it's nice to know that I could do so easily if I wanted to. One of Brent's 26-footers sailed from Canada to Australia, and another, I think, did a significant North-West passage voyage. I wouldn't imagine the boat would have any problems sailing around the South Pacific. I'm 6ft tall, and I expect to (just) have standing headroom inside (even if it means the top of the water tank is the cabin sole). In an earlier message to this group Brent once said "the BS 26 has full headroom and is liveable. It has the interior room of an Alberg 30". If that's the case it's going to be more than big enough for me. Not sure what you mean by a "retractable" mast; but I'll be setting up the rig on my boat so that it's mast is very easy to raise and lower (at least partially - so that I can get under low bridges, etc). The plans for the 26-footer show a solid spruce mast that's only 3" x 4.5" x 33ft high - I think the equivalent in aluminum would be light enough to make this manageable. What I can say for sure is that Brent's design has been dead easy to build for me so far. Although I've just started, I've made more progress in the few weekends I've been working on it than what I ever did with the other boats I've built. Anyway, hope this helps. Best of luck with whatever design you eventually choose! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "coreyzzzz2000" wrote: > > Hi all, I have been reading these digests for years now trying to learn about origami boats and sailing in general. I own a 19' twin keeler that was built in the 80's of plywood and fiberglass. We trailer her to our destinations and sail on primarily land locked lakes. It would be nice to have a boat that allowed the head room to stand up inside and the security of a steel hull to withstand the vagaries of nature and fate. Someday I would like to be able to sail this boat to the South Pacific, New Zealand, or wherever we might fancy. > > I am sure that you have touched on this before, but my memory isn't that woohoo. Would like to know your opinions on the feasability of building Brent with a retractable mast (if it is even doable). (Maybe use the retractable while on landlocked lakes and at a later date swap it for a permanently mounted mast after the boat is launched on the coast.) > > I see in Brent's book that the beam is approximately 10'on a 31' and 8'2" on the 26'. There are many boaters locally that trailer boats wider than 10' on a regular basis. I witnessed a personal pick up truck hauling one near 12' yesterday (Wide Load permits and banners in place.) > > Assuming a truck that had GCVW great enough to cover the safe transport, is trailering a Brent Boat feasible at all? (I have a dually diesel rated to 24K lbs.) > > Is the 26' going to allow a 6 foot tall person room to move about comfortably? > > I am really wanting to build a 31', but all opinions are welcome. My original plan has been to hire a lowboy to haul it out to the coast when the time came, but it would be nice to use it until that day comes. > > Thanks in advance. > | 23712|23710|2010-07-21 08:00:56|James Pronk|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|Hello Kim Good to hear it is going well. Are you taking photos? I know we would all love to see them. James --- On Wed, 7/21/10, kimdxx wrote: From: kimdxx Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 7:25 AM   Hi Corey ... I've just started to build one of Brent's twin-keel 26-footers. Its dimensions are such that, here in Australia, it can be trailed anywhere without the need for any special permits or anything - just put it on a trailer and go! Its twin-keel configuration means that an ordinary flatbed trailer could be used, rather than a more expensive "special" boat trailer. It weighs only about 3 ton, so a really heavy towing vehicle shouldn't be required either. However, I don't intend to trailer mine. It will always be in the water; but it's nice to know that I could do so easily if I wanted to. One of Brent's 26-footers sailed from Canada to Australia, and another, I think, did a significant North-West passage voyage. I wouldn't imagine the boat would have any problems sailing around the South Pacific. I'm 6ft tall, and I expect to (just) have standing headroom inside (even if it means the top of the water tank is the cabin sole). In an earlier message to this group Brent once said "the BS 26 has full headroom and is liveable. It has the interior room of an Alberg 30". If that's the case it's going to be more than big enough for me. Not sure what you mean by a "retractable" mast; but I'll be setting up the rig on my boat so that it's mast is very easy to raise and lower (at least partially - so that I can get under low bridges, etc). The plans for the 26-footer show a solid spruce mast that's only 3" x 4.5" x 33ft high - I think the equivalent in aluminum would be light enough to make this manageable. What I can say for sure is that Brent's design has been dead easy to build for me so far. Although I've just started, I've made more progress in the few weekends I've been working on it than what I ever did with the other boats I've built. Anyway, hope this helps. Best of luck with whatever design you eventually choose! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "coreyzzzz2000" wrote: > > Hi all, I have been reading these digests for years now trying to learn about origami boats and sailing in general. I own a 19' twin keeler that was built in the 80's of plywood and fiberglass. We trailer her to our destinations and sail on primarily land locked lakes. It would be nice to have a boat that allowed the head room to stand up inside and the security of a steel hull to withstand the vagaries of nature and fate. Someday I would like to be able to sail this boat to the South Pacific, New Zealand, or wherever we might fancy. > > I am sure that you have touched on this before, but my memory isn't that woohoo. Would like to know your opinions on the feasability of building Brent with a retractable mast (if it is even doable). (Maybe use the retractable while on landlocked lakes and at a later date swap it for a permanently mounted mast after the boat is launched on the coast.) > > I see in Brent's book that the beam is approximately 10'on a 31' and 8'2" on the 26'. There are many boaters locally that trailer boats wider than 10' on a regular basis. I witnessed a personal pick up truck hauling one near 12' yesterday (Wide Load permits and banners in place.) > > Assuming a truck that had GCVW great enough to cover the safe transport, is trailering a Brent Boat feasible at all? (I have a dually diesel rated to 24K lbs.) > > Is the 26' going to allow a 6 foot tall person room to move about comfortably? > > I am really wanting to build a 31', but all opinions are welcome. My original plan has been to hire a lowboy to haul it out to the coast when the time came, but it would be nice to use it until that day comes. > > Thanks in advance. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23713|23710|2010-07-21 09:35:24|rhko47|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|Good questions. Let me share my thoughts/experience, though I have not launched yet. I chose the BS26 as the right size for someone who is a novice sailor as well as builder, and intended to put it on a trailer from the start. The trailer I acquired (originally built as a car hauler) is a flat frame on tandem 6000 lb torsion axles, so that the frame is lower than the tops of the tires. It is 26 ft overall and unusual for its length; I have not seen any others this long or longer except goosenecks. When I got the boat plans, I started drawing some cross sections to plan the interior. The available headroom was as I recall 6'2" without any roofbeams or headliner or any flooring atop the center tank top. I am 6'2". Furthermore, there was scant to just not enough room to sit down in the cabin beneath the side decks. Some modification was in order. In a message several years ago, Brent suggested that the BS26 could be scaled up as far as 29 ft. I chose to go to 28ft. This produced (on paper) beam of 8'6", draft of 3'6" (twin keels), and displacement of 8800 lbs (4 tons). Headroom will be 6'5" from the tank top (24" wide) to the pilot house roof, less some sort of sole material and roofbeams/insulation/headliner. Seating in the cabin will be adquate, and headroom in the cabin, while still too little for me will be adequate for shorter people. Why not just build the BS31? As you noted, this would require permitting for trailering, because of the width. And having 3/16" hull plate and 1/4" keel and skeg plates, it would be more problematic for a solo builder to handle the steel, and more boat to handle for a novice, especially in a singlehanded situation. If you have no reservations about towing this width and weight and are an experienced and confident sailor, these considerations may not apply. Now, just what do you mean by trailering? Transportation to the launch site is one set of considerations, including GCVW, width, combined length, permits, etc. But once at the water, I would not expect to be able to launch the vessel from a ramp, like a 15' runabout; the water would have to be over 5' deep to float the boat off the trailer, the tow vehicle would have to let the trailer out into the water to this depth with a cable and winch, depending only on gravity and the slope and smoothness of the ramp (difficult to asses at this depth). If the trailer stopped rolling back before the boat floated free, there would be no choice but to pull it back out without launching. So I am resigned to having the vessel launched by a crane/travellift. The mast may or may not bee a problem, depending on configuration. A cabintop-stepped stayed alloy mast is probably short and light enough to handle with some sort of gin pole arrangement, but a tabernacle would leave it hanging far over the stern while trailering. Better to have the mast extending at least to the front of the trailer; a tabernacle would still be useful to lower the mast for bridges, and could be part of the mast-raising mechanism. I considered a keel-stepped tabernacle for an unstayed solid timber mast, but the whole thing would have been too complicated, heavy and cumbersome. Since I will have to hire the crane anyway, I may as well have him step the mast, too. Hope this helps. I am curious about your tow vehicle and its rating. Is this GCVW, tow eight or what? Isuzu NPR-type truck? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "coreyzzzz2000" wrote: > > Hi all, I have been reading these digests for years now trying to learn about origami boats and sailing in general. I own a 19' twin keeler that was built in the 80's of plywood and fiberglass. We trailer her to our destinations and sail on primarily land locked lakes. It would be nice to have a boat that allowed the head room to stand up inside and the security of a steel hull to withstand the vagaries of nature and fate. Someday I would like to be able to sail this boat to the South Pacific, New Zealand, or wherever we might fancy. > > I am sure that you have touched on this before, but my memory isn't that woohoo. Would like to know your opinions on the feasability of building Brent with a retractable mast (if it is even doable). (Maybe use the retractable while on landlocked lakes and at a later date swap it for a permanently mounted mast after the boat is launched on the coast.) > > I see in Brent's book that the beam is approximately 10'on a 31' and 8'2" on the 26'. There are many boaters locally that trailer boats wider than 10' on a regular basis. I witnessed a personal pick up truck hauling one near 12' yesterday (Wide Load permits and banners in place.) > > Assuming a truck that had GCVW great enough to cover the safe transport, is trailering a Brent Boat feasible at all? (I have a dually diesel rated to 24K lbs.) > > Is the 26' going to allow a 6 foot tall person room to move about comfortably? > > I am really wanting to build a 31', but all opinions are welcome. My original plan has been to hire a lowboy to haul it out to the coast when the time came, but it would be nice to use it until that day comes. > > Thanks in advance. > | 23714|23710|2010-07-21 11:06:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 01:33:36PM -0000, rhko47 wrote: > > The mast may or may not bee a problem, depending on configuration. A > cabintop-stepped stayed alloy mast is probably short and light enough > to handle with some sort of gin pole arrangement, but a tabernacle > would leave it hanging far over the stern while trailering. Just a note here: no matter what you use, there's nothing to stop you from centering the mast on the boat after you've lowered it. My boat has tabernacles plus a feature that I find really useful: my main chainplates are a triangular framework (essentially two pieces of flatbar per side) that bring the shroud attachment points level with the mast pivot point. It lets me lower the mast on my 34' boat with almost no help or power equipment: I rig a gin pole (whisker pole attached to its ring and stabilized side to side by tying lines to those long chainplates) and take a halyard through it and forward to my windlass, take loose the forward lower shrouds and the wiring at the base of the mast, and then slowly slip the halyard using the windlass as a brake. Raising it is just a matter of cranking it up with the windlass. It's nice to have somebody to help lower it the last 30 degrees or so, or to help with raising it that far on the return, but it doesn't take a crane or a bunch of people struggling. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23715|23701|2010-07-21 12:38:19|h|Re: Fisherman's Splice|I've seen it done where the half the strands are brought one way around the eye and the other half is brought the other way around then the wire is twisted around itself one at a time, like brent explained. Don't know if this is a better way to do it or not. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Flemish eye, molly hogan, farm splice , etc etc.,it has a lot of different names. The beauty of it is it is quick, simple, and doesn't fatigue the wire at all. It is the only way to make aluminium and copper sleeves 100% reliable. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Brent, > > I was taught that the name of what you did is a Flemish Eye. I used to do > > this all the time on wire rope, it's how wire rope slings are made. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:47 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fisherman's Splice > > > > > > > For the anchor rode, I simply pass the rope thru the first chain link and > > > tie an overhand knot in it. I keep an eye on it for chafe and at the first > > > sign of cafe I pull a bit more thru and tie another knot in it. > > > For rigging , most local fishermen have wrapped the wire around a thimble > > > then took one strand out and wrapped it around the ends, then took another > > > out and did the same, etc etc until all the strands are used up. The > > > springyness of high tensile rigging makes this difficult, and have heard > > > of them comming unwound under load. Low tensile wire is far to soft for a > > > sailing rig. Fishboats don't have anywhere near the loads on them. > > > I prefer to take 1x7 high tensile wire, slide a couple of aluminium > > > nicopress sleeves on, then separate out three stands and lay them back up > > > in the opposite direction from the remaining four strands, around the > > > other four strands, then put the thimble in and force one nicopress sleeve > > > down to hold the thimble in , squish it down, and use the second one on > > > the end of the splice. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Randy" wrote: > > >> > > >> Thanks Ben! Nice site. Brent and some others have mentioned a Fishermans > > >> splice for standing rigging. Are you familiar with that? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > >> > > > >> > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 03:51:54AM -0000, Randy wrote: > > >> > > Can anyone explain to me or have photo's of what the fishman's splice > > >> > > is. Thanks! > > >> > > > >> > A Fisherman's Splice is also known as an Anchor Bend. Here's a demo of > > >> > tying it, from one of my favorite knot sites: > > >> > > > >> > http://www.animatedknots.com/anchor/index.php > > >> > > > >> > Note the "Comparison" comment below the knot: > > >> > > > >> > It is very similar to the Round Turn and Two Half Hitches, so similar > > >> > that it is doubtful if there is much benefit in using one knot over > > >> > the > > >> > other. If either knot were being used to secure an anchor line to an > > >> > anchor, most people would add an extra one or two half hitches. Many > > >> > would also seize the bitter end to the standing end for additional > > >> > security. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > >> > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > >> > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > >> > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > | 23716|23710|2010-07-21 12:57:15|Matt Malone|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|Ben, please remind us, what size of boat you have, what the mast is made of, how long it is and how heavy ? I rigged up something similar on a 23' boat, 25' deck-stepped mast, weighing about 100 pounds. The first 30 degrees is a challenge for one person. Do you have a photograph you can post ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:55:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat? On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 01:33:36PM -0000, rhko47 wrote: > > The mast may or may not bee a problem, depending on configuration. A > cabintop-stepped stayed alloy mast is probably short and light enough > to handle with some sort of gin pole arrangement, but a tabernacle > would leave it hanging far over the stern while trailering. Just a note here: no matter what you use, there's nothing to stop you from centering the mast on the boat after you've lowered it. My boat has tabernacles plus a feature that I find really useful: my main chainplates are a triangular framework (essentially two pieces of flatbar per side) that bring the shroud attachment points level with the mast pivot point. It lets me lower the mast on my 34' boat with almost no help or power equipment: I rig a gin pole (whisker pole attached to its ring and stabilized side to side by tying lines to those long chainplates) and take a halyard through it and forward to my windlass, take loose the forward lower shrouds and the wiring at the base of the mast, and then slowly slip the halyard using the windlass as a brake. Raising it is just a matter of cranking it up with the windlass. It's nice to have somebody to help lower it the last 30 degrees or so, or to help with raising it that far on the return, but it doesn't take a crane or a bunch of people struggling. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com _________________________________________________________________ Look 'em in the eye: FREE Messenger video chat http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734386 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23717|23710|2010-07-21 13:00:46|h|Re: Possible to build a Swain boat trailer?|I was wondering whether it'd be possible for me to do that with my 47' mast, use the bow roller as a turning point for the halyard and if I figured out a way to let the anchor winch out one tooth at a time raise and lower it with that. There's a re-enforced stanchion that's in line with the pivot point of the mast on my boat. At some point, maybe if I want to re-paint or something I was thinking of building a trailer for a 36' twin keeler, should be too hard I could use an old car chassis, My Dad's farm is only a couple of miles from a boat launch so it'd be pretty easy, and I figured I could always sell it or rent it out to to some other brent boater on Vancouver Island, just to pay for the trailer. As it is, a crane and flatbed, which is the only way to move one around up here, costs about 500 bucks or so. I should have built one for when I first put the boat in the water, or when I moved the hull from Alex's place - would of saved money already. With our tides around here most boat launches have enough room to launch at high tide but I think you'd have to winch the trailer in and out of the water, either that or take over the boat launch for the whole day and park/take away the trailer at low tide, could be done here in the winter without any problems. It lets me lower the mast on my 34' boat with almost > no help or power equipment: I rig a gin pole (whisker pole attached to > its ring and stabilized side to side by tying lines to those long > chainplates) and take a halyard through it and forward to my windlass, > take loose the forward lower shrouds and the wiring at the base of the > mast, and then slowly slip the halyard using the windlass as a brake. > Raising it is just a matter of cranking it up with the windlass. > > It's nice to have somebody to help lower it the last 30 degrees or so, > or to help with raising it that far on the return, but it doesn't take a > crane or a bunch of people struggling. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23718|23710|2010-07-21 14:45:51|Ben Okopnik|Re: Possible to build a Swain boat trailer?|On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 04:57:48PM -0000, h wrote: > I was wondering whether it'd be possible for me to do that with my 47' > mast, use the bow roller as a turning point for the halyard and if I > figured out a way to let the anchor winch out one tooth at a time > raise and lower it with that. There's a re-enforced stanchion that's > in line with the pivot point of the mast on my boat. You wouldn't need to let the anchor winch out - just wrap the halyard around the drum and slip it gently and as smoothly as you can (you really don't want to bounce that mast while you've got it inclined like that!) > At some point, maybe if I want to re-paint or something I was thinking > of building a trailer for a 36' twin keeler, should be too hard I > could use an old car chassis, My Dad's farm is only a couple of miles > from a boat launch so it'd be pretty easy, and I figured I could > always sell it or rent it out to to some other brent boater on > Vancouver Island, just to pay for the trailer. As it is, a crane and > flatbed, which is the only way to move one around up here, costs about > 500 bucks or so. [blink] Damn. I'm surprised that no one's done it already. Given that there are at least a couple "Brentboaters" up there, and the moving cost that you cite, this makes a huge amount of sense. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23719|23710|2010-07-21 15:39:02|Ben Okopnik|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|Hi, Matt - On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 12:56:52PM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > Ben, please remind us, what size of boat you have, what the mast is > made of, how long it is and how heavy ? "Ulysses" is 34' LOA, with a 45' oval-section aluminum mast. I don't have any numbers for the weight on hand - I'd have to calculate them, and I'm feeling just a bit lazy right now :) - but I didn't have any problem shifting it around the boat as necessary, e.g. lining it up with the tabernacle so I could get the pin back in. At an extremely rough guess, I'd have to say that makes it well below 500 lbs. and probably not any less than 200. > I rigged up something > similar on a 23' boat, 25' deck-stepped mast, weighing about 100 > pounds. The first 30 degrees is a challenge for one person. Do you > have a photograph you can post ? Of the process? No, I'm afraid not. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com | 23720|23710|2010-07-21 17:20:07|Mark Hamill|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|Regarding a one boat suits all----I think you might be asking too much out of one boat. If you want a trailerable boat you might consider something easily trailerable and with a centerboard or bilge keels for drying out in quiet places and going through thin water. There are a huge # of inexpensive trailerable boats available with trailers. The easier they are to set up the more you will use them. One could then build a bluewater boat while still having something to vacation in. I converted a 25 foot freighter canoe to sail and motor for vacations and it worked great. But that was a bit primitive to say the least. For $1500 plus you might find something that you can sailaway in the 22 to 25" range. (By the way, If you want a GREAT freshwater sail trip go to Great Slave Lake by way of Fort Resolution or Yellowknife--the east end is 250 miles away great island chains and the big peninsula is being considered as a National Park plus the fishing is amazing!!!!!) MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23721|23710|2010-07-21 18:09:48|brentswain38|Re: Possible to build a Swain boat trailer?|There is a trailer out back of Steve Rankin's place which was built to fit a 36 single keeler. You could possibly modify it to fit a twin keeler,. Trailerability was what I had in mind when I kept the beam of the 26 to 8 ft, the limit at the time. The 26 is designed to take a soling main sail, which are a dime a dozen. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "h" wrote: > > I was wondering whether it'd be possible for me to do that with my 47' mast, use the bow roller as a turning point for the halyard and if I figured out a way to let the anchor winch out one tooth at a time raise and lower it with that. There's a re-enforced stanchion that's in line with the pivot point of the mast on my boat. > > At some point, maybe if I want to re-paint or something I was thinking of building a trailer for a 36' twin keeler, should be too hard I could use an old car chassis, My Dad's farm is only a couple of miles from a boat launch so it'd be pretty easy, and I figured I could always sell it or rent it out to to some other brent boater on Vancouver Island, just to pay for the trailer. As it is, a crane and flatbed, which is the only way to move one around up here, costs about 500 bucks or so. > I should have built one for when I first put the boat in the water, or when I moved the hull from Alex's place - would of saved money already. With our tides around here most boat launches have enough room to launch at high tide but I think you'd have to winch the trailer in and out of the water, either that or take over the boat launch for the whole day and park/take away the trailer at low tide, could be done here in the winter without any problems. > > > > > It lets me lower the mast on my 34' boat with almost > > no help or power equipment: I rig a gin pole (whisker pole attached to > > its ring and stabilized side to side by tying lines to those long > > chainplates) and take a halyard through it and forward to my windlass, > > take loose the forward lower shrouds and the wiring at the base of the > > mast, and then slowly slip the halyard using the windlass as a brake. > > Raising it is just a matter of cranking it up with the windlass. > > > > It's nice to have somebody to help lower it the last 30 degrees or so, > > or to help with raising it that far on the return, but it doesn't take a > > crane or a bunch of people struggling. > > > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > | 23722|23710|2010-07-21 18:10:55|brentswain38|Re: Possible to build a Swain boat trailer?|On the first 31 I built, the owner parked it on a beach with a high hill above it. He took a rope from the top of the mast , stood on the hill and raised his mast, walked down and did up the rigging, then went back up the hill to take his rope off. No problem. You have some stanchions which are in line with the mast pin, to attach your lower shrouds to, to stop the mast from swinging sideways when you raise or lower it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 04:57:48PM -0000, h wrote: > > I was wondering whether it'd be possible for me to do that with my 47' > > mast, use the bow roller as a turning point for the halyard and if I > > figured out a way to let the anchor winch out one tooth at a time > > raise and lower it with that. There's a re-enforced stanchion that's > > in line with the pivot point of the mast on my boat. > > You wouldn't need to let the anchor winch out - just wrap the halyard > around the drum and slip it gently and as smoothly as you can (you > really don't want to bounce that mast while you've got it inclined like > that!) > > > At some point, maybe if I want to re-paint or something I was thinking > > of building a trailer for a 36' twin keeler, should be too hard I > > could use an old car chassis, My Dad's farm is only a couple of miles > > from a boat launch so it'd be pretty easy, and I figured I could > > always sell it or rent it out to to some other brent boater on > > Vancouver Island, just to pay for the trailer. As it is, a crane and > > flatbed, which is the only way to move one around up here, costs about > > 500 bucks or so. > > [blink] Damn. I'm surprised that no one's done it already. Given that > there are at least a couple "Brentboaters" up there, and the moving cost > that you cite, this makes a huge amount of sense. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23723|23723|2010-07-21 19:20:04|martin|Trailer for a Swain 36|Hi All; Ken Smith from out here in Alberta built his own trailer and used it for hauling his 36BS bilge keeler out to the coast and launched it from the trailer into the Fraser. Hey Brent would one inch SSpipe be too much to make the connection from my pilot house out the stern or do you recomend I find a length of the half inch? I have a bunch of 3/8 pipe but I'm thinking its way too light for the job. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 23724|23710|2010-07-21 22:52:37|James Pronk|Re: Possible to build a Swain boat trailer?|We had a round bail wagon on the farm that I had built out of an old bus frame. It would be about the right size. I had a friend who had an old hay wagon frame for his dragon and it worked well for the 5 mile drive to the lake. I built the trailer for my Catalina 27 and I have been launching the boat off the trailer for the last three seasons. We put a tractor on the trailer and I have a 6 foot extension on the trailer. We back the tractor into the water up to the back axle. I built the trailer with house trailer axles and it has worked great for me. James  --- On Wed, 7/21/10, h wrote: From: h Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Possible to build a Swain boat trailer? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 12:57 PM   I was wondering whether it'd be possible for me to do that with my 47' mast, use the bow roller as a turning point for the halyard and if I figured out a way to let the anchor winch out one tooth at a time raise and lower it with that. There's a re-enforced stanchion that's in line with the pivot point of the mast on my boat. At some point, maybe if I want to re-paint or something I was thinking of building a trailer for a 36' twin keeler, should be too hard I could use an old car chassis, My Dad's farm is only a couple of miles from a boat launch so it'd be pretty easy, and I figured I could always sell it or rent it out to to some other brent boater on Vancouver Island, just to pay for the trailer. As it is, a crane and flatbed, which is the only way to move one around up here, costs about 500 bucks or so. I should have built one for when I first put the boat in the water, or when I moved the hull from Alex's place - would of saved money already. With our tides around here most boat launches have enough room to launch at high tide but I think you'd have to winch the trailer in and out of the water, either that or take over the boat launch for the whole day and park/take away the trailer at low tide, could be done here in the winter without any problems. It lets me lower the mast on my 34' boat with almost > no help or power equipment: I rig a gin pole (whisker pole attached to > its ring and stabilized side to side by tying lines to those long > chainplates) and take a halyard through it and forward to my windlass, > take loose the forward lower shrouds and the wiring at the base of the > mast, and then slowly slip the halyard using the windlass as a brake. > Raising it is just a matter of cranking it up with the windlass. > > It's nice to have somebody to help lower it the last 30 degrees or so, > or to help with raising it that far on the return, but it doesn't take a > crane or a bunch of people struggling. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23725|23710|2010-07-22 00:06:31|coreyzzzz2000|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|Thanks Kim! I would love to see some pics of your build also! The fact that the 26' has the interior room of a 30' is one feature that really attracted me to the design. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kimdxx" wrote: > > > Hi Corey ... > > I've just started to build one of Brent's twin-keel 26-footers. Its dimensions are such that, here in Australia, it can be trailed anywhere without the need for any special permits or anything - just put it on a trailer and go! Its twin-keel configuration means that an ordinary flatbed trailer could be used, rather than a more expensive "special" boat trailer. It weighs only about 3 ton, so a really heavy towing vehicle shouldn't be required either. > > However, I don't intend to trailer mine. It will always be in the water; but it's nice to know that I could do so easily if I wanted to. > > One of Brent's 26-footers sailed from Canada to Australia, and another, I think, did a significant North-West passage voyage. I wouldn't imagine the boat would have any problems sailing around the South Pacific. > > I'm 6ft tall, and I expect to (just) have standing headroom inside (even if it means the top of the water tank is the cabin sole). In an earlier message to this group Brent once said "the BS 26 has full headroom and is liveable. It has the interior room of an Alberg 30". If that's the case it's going to be more than big enough for me. > > Not sure what you mean by a "retractable" mast; but I'll be setting up the rig on my boat so that it's mast is very easy to raise and lower (at least partially - so that I can get under low bridges, etc). The plans for the 26-footer show a solid spruce mast that's only 3" x 4.5" x 33ft high - I think the equivalent in aluminum would be light enough to make this manageable. > > What I can say for sure is that Brent's design has been dead easy to build for me so far. Although I've just started, I've made more progress in the few weekends I've been working on it than what I ever did with the other boats I've built. > > Anyway, hope this helps. Best of luck with whatever design you eventually choose! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > | 23726|23710|2010-07-22 00:25:57|coreyzzzz2000|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rhko47" wrote: > > Good questions. Let me share my thoughts/experience, though I have not launched yet. I chose the BS26 as the right size for someone who is a novice sailor as well as builder, and intended to put it on a trailer from the start. The trailer I acquired (originally built as a car hauler) is a flat frame on tandem 6000 lb torsion axles, so that the frame is lower than the tops of the tires. It is 26 ft overall and unusual for its length; I have not seen any others this long or longer except goosenecks. My 19' has a flat bed four wheeled trailer similar to what you describe. The tongue extends 10' to help with launching. > When I got the boat plans, I started drawing some cross sections to plan the interior. The available headroom was as I recall 6'2" without any roofbeams or headliner or any flooring atop the center tank top. I am 6'2". Furthermore, there was scant to just not enough room to sit down in the cabin beneath the side decks. Some modification was in order. > > In a message several years ago, Brent suggested that the BS26 could be scaled up as far as 29 ft. I chose to go to 28ft. This produced (on paper) beam of 8'6", draft of 3'6" (twin keels), and displacement of 8800 lbs (4 tons). Headroom will be 6'5" from the tank top (24" wide) to the pilot house roof, less some sort of sole material and roofbeams/insulation/headliner. Seating in the cabin will be adquate, and headroom in the cabin, while still too little for me will be adequate for shorter people. This sounds like a great compromise to get the 'just' right size. > Why not just build the BS31? As you noted, this would require permitting for trailering, because of the width. And having 3/16" hull plate and 1/4" keel and skeg plates, it would be more problematic for a solo builder to handle the steel, and more boat to handle for a novice, especially in a singlehanded situation. If you have no reservations about towing this width and weight and are an experienced and confident sailor, these considerations may not apply. My experience is not great. Like I state in the original post I am still learning. My twin keeler is the first full size sailboat I have ever owned. > Now, just what do you mean by trailering? Transportation to the launch site is one set of considerations, including GCVW, width, combined length, permits, etc. But once at the water, I would not expect to be able to launch the vessel from a ramp, like a 15' runabout; the water would have to be over 5' deep to float the boat off the trailer, the tow vehicle would have to let the trailer out into the water to this depth with a cable and winch, depending only on gravity and the slope and smoothness of the ramp (difficult to asses at this depth). If the trailer stopped rolling back before the boat floated free, there would be no choice but to pull it back out without launching. So I am resigned to having the vessel launched by a crane/travellift. I can see the launch ramps being an issue in a few of the lakes we go to. I have seen some very large single keeled boats launched from the ramp we visit. The trailer would need to be designed to accommodate for the shallower launches, but I see your point. > The mast may or may not bee a problem, depending on configuration. A cabintop-stepped stayed alloy mast is probably short and light enough to handle with some sort of gin pole arrangement, but a tabernacle would leave it hanging far over the stern while trailering. Better to have the mast extending at least to the front of the trailer; a tabernacle would still be useful to lower the mast for bridges, and could be part of the mast-raising mechanism. I considered a keel-stepped tabernacle for an unstayed solid timber mast, but the whole thing would have been too complicated, heavy and cumbersome. Since I will have to hire the crane anyway, I may as well have him step the mast, too. My current boat has a simple knock down mast that hangs out over stern far more than I am really comfortable with, but its good to hear that it may be possible. > Hope this helps. Very much. Thank you. > I am curious about your tow vehicle and its rating. Is this GCVW, tow eight or what? Isuzu NPR-type truck? >Duramax 3500HD with 6.6L Diesel The manual says GCWR is 23,500lbs. My OP says 24K-sorry) It is possible to buy a permit here for $100 per year that allows you to exceed this under certain rules such as weather, towing during the day, etc... I'm not sure how much, but I would rather stay within the design rating of the truck. > > | 23727|23710|2010-07-22 00:28:31|coreyzzzz2000|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|> Raising it is just a matter of cranking it up with the windlass. > > It's nice to have somebody to help lower it the last 30 degrees or so, > or to help with raising it that far on the return, but it doesn't take a > crane or a bunch of people struggling. > Sounds similar to my current boat. I can do it solo, but it is so much easier with some help. Good to know its feasible on a larger scale. Thanks Ben.| 23728|23710|2010-07-22 00:36:25|coreyzzzz2000|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Regarding a one boat suits all----I think you might be asking too much out of one boat. If you want a trailerable boat you might consider something easily trailerable and with a centerboard or bilge keels for drying out in quiet places and going through thin water. There are a huge # of inexpensive trailerable boats available with trailers. The easier they are to set up the more you will use them. One could then build a bluewater boat while still having something to vacation in. I converted a 25 foot freighter canoe to sail and motor for vacations and it worked great. But that was a bit primitive to say the least. For $1500 plus you might find something that you can sailaway in the 22 to 25" range. (By the way, If you want a GREAT freshwater sail trip go to Great Slave Lake by way of Fort Resolution or Yellowknife--the east end is 250 miles away great island chains and the big peninsula is being considered as a National Park plus the fishing is amazing!!!!!) > MarkH > You are likely right about asking too much from one boat. It never hurts to ask, right? Great Slave Lake sounds amazing. I know a few guys that work in Yellowknife and live in Edmonton area that I keep promising to ride up and visit!| 23729|23710|2010-07-22 00:41:08|coreyzzzz2000|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|Thanks again everyone for your input! I really do appreciate it. I wish that I could cut the lines now and go like Brent did, but it's just not in the cards at the moment. However the day is nearing and I want to be prepared when the opportunity allows.| 23730|23710|2010-07-22 02:18:01|kimdxx|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|Ben, your mast-lowering system is pretty well what I thought I would put on my boat! Great to hear that it works well! I always thought that if the cap-shroud attachment points, and the pin in the mast-step hinge, were all in the same horizontal line, then lowering the mast would be a one-man job, as the mast couldn't sway from side to side as it was being lowered. On a somewhat-related side-note: The first boat I built was a 31ft ferrocement centerboard sloop designed by the Australian NA Len Hedges. The design was originally drawn for a guy around here who wanted to moor it in a creek at the end of his backyard. The problem was that his mooring spot was on the wrong side of a long, low bridge. (The bridge was the Hornibrook Highway link to Redcliffe, for those who know the area. When it was built I think it was one of the longest bridges in the World.) Anyway, in order to get under the bridge this guy had to (partially) raise and lower his mast (sometimes in very choppy water) every time he wanted to go sailing. Len's solution was to specify a bipole mast (each end on a hinged mast step at the deck edge), and that was the rig drawing I had. Apparently it worked OK. My boat had a conventional sloop rig; but the bipole mast concept was an interesting idea. Your system would achieve the same result, and would be a lot simpler and lighter. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 01:33:36PM -0000, rhko47 wrote: > > > > The mast may or may not bee a problem, depending on configuration. A > > cabintop-stepped stayed alloy mast is probably short and light enough > > to handle with some sort of gin pole arrangement, but a tabernacle > > would leave it hanging far over the stern while trailering. > > Just a note here: no matter what you use, there's nothing to stop you > from centering the mast on the boat after you've lowered it. My boat has > tabernacles plus a feature that I find really useful: my main > chainplates are a triangular framework (essentially two pieces of > flatbar per side) that bring the shroud attachment points level with the > mast pivot point. It lets me lower the mast on my 34' boat with almost > no help or power equipment: I rig a gin pole (whisker pole attached to > its ring and stabilized side to side by tying lines to those long > chainplates) and take a halyard through it and forward to my windlass, > take loose the forward lower shrouds and the wiring at the base of the > mast, and then slowly slip the halyard using the windlass as a brake. > Raising it is just a matter of cranking it up with the windlass. > > It's nice to have somebody to help lower it the last 30 degrees or so, > or to help with raising it that far on the return, but it doesn't take a > crane or a bunch of people struggling. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23731|23710|2010-07-22 03:20:09|kimdxx|Re: Possible to build a trailerable Swain boat?|Hi James and Corey ... Yes, I've been taking plenty of photo's of the construction! :-) I was going to put up a small blog for the boat (mostly for far-flung family members who keep asking about it), and I'll put all the building photo's on that. I'll post the link here when I get it going. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hello Kim > Good to hear it is going well. > Are you taking photos? > I know we would all love to see them. > James --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "coreyzzzz2000" wrote: > > Thanks Kim! I would love to see some pics of your build also! > > The fact that the 26' has the interior room of a 30' is one feature that really attracted me to the design. | 23732|23723|2010-07-23 18:35:36|brentswain38|Re: Trailer for a Swain 36|You could use one inch pipe. No harm in it. You could also size it down for the part that goes thru the stuffing box in the transom. That would make the stuffing box less bulky. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > Hi All; Ken Smith from out here in Alberta built his own trailer and used it for hauling his 36BS bilge keeler out to the coast and launched it from the trailer into the Fraser. > Hey Brent would one inch SSpipe be too much to make the connection from my pilot house out the stern or do you recomend I find a length of the half inch? I have a bunch of 3/8 pipe but I'm thinking its way too light for the job. > Martin (Prairie Maid) > | 23733|23733|2010-07-25 13:43:58|Ben Okopnik|De-rusting tool|Hey, all: I bought a paint-and-rust scraping tool a couple of weeks ago from Ace Hardware, and I've been working with it over the last couple of days, about 2 hours solid today. Gotta admit: I'm impressed - and that usually takes a lot. In fact, I'm going to buy a spare next time I get a chance. It's called a Spyder Scraper, and it's just a wide chisel blade made out of flexible but very tough steel; costs about $15 (plus/minus a dollar for the larger/smaller versions.) You load it into your reciprocating saw (Sawzall, sabre saw) and go to it. Unlike a grinder, it doesn't throw and embed tiny rust chips everywhere (that's the reason I hate using grinders for stuff like this.) The effect is like a cross between a wide-area needle-gun and a paint scraper: it lifts off all but the hardest rust scale and the best-adhered paint. Although you can get both of those off too, if you want; it just takes a little more time and a rather precise work angle. I found it easier to just let it do what it does best and then whack the couple of left-spots with a chipping hammer (I had about two minutes of chipping left after almost two hours of power-scraping.) This thing was like a needle-gun on steroids. Oh, and - after accidentally whacking it into steel at too steep of an angle a number of times, getting it caught in corners, pushing it too hard, and every other kind of abuse you can imagine, the thing still looks nearly new (the corners are showing a small amount of rounding, but the blade edge is absolutely sharp and smooth.) That's damn good steel. Because of the big chunks that it picked up, cleanup took almost no time at all - just sweeping and then flushing everything with clean water. I'm looking forward to _not_ seeing tiny rust blooms on the good paint in the next couple of days... -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23734|23733|2010-07-25 17:41:05|Matt Malone|Re: De-rusting tool|I wonder how it would do on paint on fibreglass. I am definitely going to buy one. Anything that will save time scraping paint off old fibreglass. Everyone here has had an old fibreglass boat they needed to clean up and sell, to finance the new, steel dream. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:29:49 -0400 Subject: [origamiboats] De-rusting tool Hey, all: I bought a paint-and-rust scraping tool a couple of weeks ago from Ace Hardware, and I've been working with it over the last couple of days, about 2 hours solid today. Gotta admit: I'm impressed - and that usually takes a lot. In fact, I'm going to buy a spare next time I get a chance. It's called a Spyder Scraper, and it's just a wide chisel blade made out of flexible but very tough steel; costs about $15 (plus/minus a dollar for the larger/smaller versions.) You load it into your reciprocating saw (Sawzall, sabre saw) and go to it. Unlike a grinder, it doesn't throw and embed tiny rust chips everywhere (that's the reason I hate using grinders for stuff like this.) The effect is like a cross between a wide-area needle-gun and a paint scraper: it lifts off all but the hardest rust scale and the best-adhered paint. Although you can get both of those off too, if you want; it just takes a little more time and a rather precise work angle. I found it easier to just let it do what it does best and then whack the couple of left-spots with a chipping hammer (I had about two minutes of chipping left after almost two hours of power-scraping.) This thing was like a needle-gun on steroids. Oh, and - after accidentally whacking it into steel at too steep of an angle a number of times, getting it caught in corners, pushing it too hard, and every other kind of abuse you can imagine, the thing still looks nearly new (the corners are showing a small amount of rounding, but the blade edge is absolutely sharp and smooth.) That's damn good steel. Because of the big chunks that it picked up, cleanup took almost no time at all - just sweeping and then flushing everything with clean water. I'm looking forward to _not_ seeing tiny rust blooms on the good paint in the next couple of days... -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com _________________________________________________________________ Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23735|23733|2010-07-25 22:21:37|James Pronk|Re: De-rusting tool|Hello Matt I am in the same boat as you. I am almost finished installing the deck hardware on the newly painted deck of my 27' glass boat. We will sail it the rest of this year and put it up for sale next year (I will be sailing the shit out of it next year as well). What are you working on? James Pronk --- On Sun, 7/25/10, Matt Malone wrote:   From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] De-rusting tool To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, July 25, 2010, 5:40 PM I wonder how it would do on paint on fibreglass.   I am definitely going to buy one.  Anything that will save time scraping paint off old fibreglass.  Everyone here has had an old fibreglass boat they needed to clean up and sell, to finance the new, steel dream.    Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:29:49 -0400 Subject: [origamiboats] De-rusting tool                         Hey, all: I bought a paint-and-rust scraping tool a couple of weeks ago from Ace Hardware, and I've been working with it over the last couple of days, about 2 hours solid today. Gotta admit: I'm impressed - and that usually takes a lot. In fact, I'm going to buy a spare next time I get a chance. It's called a Spyder Scraper, and it's just a wide chisel blade made out of flexible but very tough steel; costs about $15 (plus/minus a dollar for the larger/smaller versions.) You load it into your reciprocating saw (Sawzall, sabre saw) and go to it. Unlike a grinder, it doesn't throw and embed tiny rust chips everywhere (that's the reason I hate using grinders for stuff like this.) The effect is like a cross between a wide-area needle-gun and a paint scraper: it lifts off all but the hardest rust scale and the best-adhered paint. Although you can get both of those off too, if you want; it just takes a little more time and a rather precise work angle. I found it easier to just let it do what it does best and then whack the couple of left-spots with a chipping hammer (I had about two minutes of chipping left after almost two hours of power-scraping.) This thing was like a needle-gun on steroids. Oh, and - after accidentally whacking it into steel at too steep of an angle a number of times, getting it caught in corners, pushing it too hard, and every other kind of abuse you can imagine, the thing still looks nearly new (the corners are showing a small amount of rounding, but the blade edge is absolutely sharp and smooth.) That's damn good steel. Because of the big chunks that it picked up, cleanup took almost no time at all - just sweeping and then flushing everything with clean water. I'm looking forward to _not_ seeing tiny rust blooms on the good paint in the next couple of days... --                        OKOPNIK CONSULTING         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming                443-250-7895    http://okopnik.com                                                _________________________________________________________________ Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23736|23733|2010-07-25 22:32:55|James Pronk|Re: De-rusting tool|That spyder scaper looks sweet! I love having one tool that can do a number of jobs well. I have a Fren scraper/sander/saw andI love it. Now Ben you could hook a sanding block on to your reciprocating saw and you will be all set. James From: James Pronk Subject: RE: [origamiboats] De-rusting tool To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, July 25, 2010, 10:14 PM   Hello Matt I am in the same boat as you. I am almost finished installing the deck hardware on the newly painted deck of my 27' glass boat. We will sail it the rest of this year and put it up for sale next year (I will be sailing the shit out of it next year as well). What are you working on? James Pronk --- On Sun, 7/25/10, Matt Malone wrote:   From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] De-rusting tool To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, July 25, 2010, 5:40 PM I wonder how it would do on paint on fibreglass.   I am definitely going to buy one.  Anything that will save time scraping paint off old fibreglass.  Everyone here has had an old fibreglass boat they needed to clean up and sell, to finance the new, steel dream.    Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:29:49 -0400 Subject: [origamiboats] De-rusting tool                         Hey, all: I bought a paint-and-rust scraping tool a couple of weeks ago from Ace Hardware, and I've been working with it over the last couple of days, about 2 hours solid today. Gotta admit: I'm impressed - and that usually takes a lot. In fact, I'm going to buy a spare next time I get a chance. It's called a Spyder Scraper, and it's just a wide chisel blade made out of flexible but very tough steel; costs about $15 (plus/minus a dollar for the larger/smaller versions.) You load it into your reciprocating saw (Sawzall, sabre saw) and go to it. Unlike a grinder, it doesn't throw and embed tiny rust chips everywhere (that's the reason I hate using grinders for stuff like this.) The effect is like a cross between a wide-area needle-gun and a paint scraper: it lifts off all but the hardest rust scale and the best-adhered paint. Although you can get both of those off too, if you want; it just takes a little more time and a rather precise work angle. I found it easier to just let it do what it does best and then whack the couple of left-spots with a chipping hammer (I had about two minutes of chipping left after almost two hours of power-scraping.) This thing was like a needle-gun on steroids. Oh, and - after accidentally whacking it into steel at too steep of an angle a number of times, getting it caught in corners, pushing it too hard, and every other kind of abuse you can imagine, the thing still looks nearly new (the corners are showing a small amount of rounding, but the blade edge is absolutely sharp and smooth.) That's damn good steel. Because of the big chunks that it picked up, cleanup took almost no time at all - just sweeping and then flushing everything with clean water. I'm looking forward to _not_ seeing tiny rust blooms on the good paint in the next couple of days... --                        OKOPNIK CONSULTING         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming                443-250-7895    http://okopnik.com                                                __________________________________________________________ Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23737|23733|2010-07-26 00:33:03|Matt Malone|Re: De-rusting tool|James, I have an Evans 16 daysailer, a Grampian 23' pocket cruiser, and a Rhodes 41. All three need some work. I would like to get between 39 and 41 feet cleaned up, barrier-coated etc, some windows, seals, etc... usual stuff. Maybe some plumbing and electrical. I find the scraping old bottom paint to be the most wearing. There will be patches and sections that come off far too easily, that convinces me it has to go, and then large sections where it is stuck like titanium, that come off a miniscule chip per near-chiselling stroke of the elbow-grease-powered scraper. There are too many square feet to go a tiny fraction of a square inch per stroke. If the reciprocating saw scraper takes off the same amount, but at 10 strokes a minute, then suddenly, it is not so discouraging. Also, I find the part that needs the most laborious scraping are always when I am laying on my back, working over my head, and the crap is falling in my face. Sure the reciprocating saw get heavier faster, but even at 1 minute per burst, I am thinking a lot more will get done. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:14:31 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] De-rusting tool Hello Matt I am in the same boat as you. I am almost finished installing the deck hardware on the newly painted deck of my 27' glass boat. We will sail it the rest of this year and put it up for sale next year (I will be sailing the shit out of it next year as well). What are you working on? James Pronk _________________________________________________________________ Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23738|23733|2010-07-26 18:35:48|brentswain38|Re: De-rusting tool|My jig saw cost me $5 in a yard sale so it doesn't owe me anyhting I'm thinking of trying a torch for removing old epoxy and bottom paint from my steel hull. The steel is good so it may save sandblasting. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > James, > > I have an Evans 16 daysailer, a Grampian 23' pocket cruiser, and a Rhodes 41. All three need some work. I would like to get between 39 and 41 feet cleaned up, barrier-coated etc, some windows, seals, etc... usual stuff. Maybe some plumbing and electrical. I find the scraping old bottom paint to be the most wearing. There will be patches and sections that come off far too easily, that convinces me it has to go, and then large sections where it is stuck like titanium, that come off a miniscule chip per near-chiselling stroke of the elbow-grease-powered scraper. There are too many square feet to go a tiny fraction of a square inch per stroke. If the reciprocating saw scraper takes off the same amount, but at 10 strokes a minute, then suddenly, it is not so discouraging. Also, I find the part that needs the most laborious scraping are always when I am laying on my back, working over my head, and the crap is falling in my face. Sure the reciprocating saw get heavier faster, but even at 1 minute per burst, I am thinking a lot more will get done. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jpronk1@... > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:14:31 -0700 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] De-rusting tool > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Matt > > I am in the same boat as you. I am almost finished installing the deck hardware on the newly painted deck of my 27' glass boat. We will sail it the rest of this year and put it up for sale next year (I will be sailing the shit out of it next year as well). What are you working on? > > James Pronk > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23739|23739|2010-07-30 13:29:14|brentswain38|Portholes|I've just been replacing my plexi ports. There is a bit of corrosion under them . I see some people going for recessed ports. It would not cost a lot to do the recessed parts under them in stainless. One coud use 1/8th ss plate, and have a 90 bent in it , sometimes far easier than finding ss angle. Then it woud be corrosion free, for ever.| 23740|23740|2010-07-30 22:52:17|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|sailboat color|Hi Brent, is darker color hull(like navy blue)makes a steel boat much warmer inside even if it is well insulated? I wanted to paint my boat white to keep it cooler, than last week I spoke with a marina owner, in my area, who told me that if the boat is well insulated it shouldn't be warmer with a dark color, I am a bit skeptical, that is why I am asking... Thanks, Martin.| 23741|23740|2010-07-30 23:53:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: sailboat color|On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 02:49:54AM -0000, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > is darker color hull(like navy blue)makes a steel boat much warmer > inside even if it is well insulated? I wanted to paint my boat white > to keep it cooler, than last week I spoke with a marina owner, in my > area, who told me that if the boat is well insulated it shouldn't be > warmer with a dark color, I am a bit skeptical, that is why I am > asking... Lesson from living aboard in the Caribbean: painting your boat anything but white is an expensive way to make yourself miserable. I've been on boats that were later repainted a different color - both from white to dark and from dark to white - and it really makes a huge difference. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23742|23740|2010-07-31 00:43:50|David Frantz|Re: sailboat color|If you are to be around tropical temperatures white or highly reflective surfaces are the only way to go. Remember insulation only slows thermal transfer, a black surface only means a higher temperature differential to start with. Thus more heat to the interior. For northwrn climates there might be some advantage. Honestly though they don't reccomend such dark colors for homes so it is likely not an advantage on a boat either. Plus I'm concerned about visibility, i would think that a dark boat would be a huge disadvantage on the water at night. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 30, 2010, at 10:49 PM, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > Hi Brent, > > is darker color hull(like navy blue)makes a steel boat much warmer inside even if it is well insulated? > I wanted to paint my boat white to keep it cooler, than last week I spoke with a marina owner, in my area, who told me that if the boat is well insulated it shouldn't be warmer with a dark color, I am a bit skeptical, that is why I am asking... > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23743|23740|2010-07-31 01:31:11|CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: sailboat color|I am with Ben on this. Guys, both heat (from the sun) and PV solar cells (from the sun) work for the same reason. Incoming solar enrgy in the form of radiation. The sun delivers about 1 kW / square meter near the equator. For a 10m boat, 2.5 m wide, thats about 25 kW of energy input. Most of it is reflected, but the difference between shiny, white or absobent, black is over 200%. (A plastic framed camera in a car will melt, if it is on the dash in africa. The black plastic just absorbs heat, and in a closed stopped car there is no convection for cooler air). If you are in the north, a dark hull will make it colder ! In the north, you need to heat your boat, not cool it, and the darker it is the easier and faster it loses heat. For really comfortable boating in the north (scandinavia) and an extended season, dual-paned windows and extra insulation are very desirable. They are too unusual and expesive for production builders, though. In Finland, on the water, it is always cold (even in summer, apart from this one (worlds warmest in history, had 37C in Finland)). According to Steve Dashew (whose numbers I for one trust) simple shades in windows and awnings represent over 30% total energy savings in cooling. www.setsail.com in the FPB articales. On dive boats, in the caribbean, any dark surface gets hot, in my experience. So, if you paint your hull dark, you will need better insulation, more heating and more cooling. I would suggest light tints only. > On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 02:49:54AM -0000, mdemers2005@... > wrote: > > > > is darker color hull(like navy blue)makes a steel boat much warmer > > inside even if it is well insulated? I wanted to paint my boat white > > to keep it cooler, than last week I spoke with a marina owner, in my > > area, who told me that if the boat is well insulated it shouldn't be > > warmer with a dark color, I am a bit skeptical, that is why I am > > asking... > > Lesson from living aboard in the Caribbean: painting your boat anything > but white is an expensive way to make yourself miserable. I've been on > boats that were later repainted a different color - both from white to > dark and from dark to white - and it really makes a huge difference. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23744|23739|2010-07-31 05:01:33|Aaron Williams|Re: Portholes|I almost did just that and went with 3/16" carbon. SS will draw and warp so one would have to spend far more time carefully welding. Aaron  --- On Fri, 7/30/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Portholes To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 9:24 AM   I've just been replacing my plexi ports. There is a bit of corrosion under them . I see some people going for recessed ports. It would not cost a lot to do the recessed parts under them in stainless. One coud use 1/8th ss plate, and have a 90 bent in it , sometimes far easier than finding ss angle. Then it woud be corrosion free, for ever. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23745|23740|2010-07-31 09:34:27|Matt Malone|Re: sailboat color|I agree, paint it white to decrease the absorption of the many kW of power that are beating down on your boat in the tropics. I am a big fan of white. Having as much white as possible inside also cuts the cost, or increases the effectiveness of illumination. Hot climates vs. cold climates... before one worries about paint, consider that cooling requires electricity, and heating requires firewood. Electricity is in short supply on a boat and hard to store in quantities important to air conditioning. Firewood is typically cheap and easy to store. If your boat is going to the tropics and cold areas, paint for the tropics. Paint it white. There are some small and hidden effects that should be considered. Painting your boat white may reflect 90%+ of the solar power, however, (using 25kW as a starting point) even the 2.5kW that might be absorbed, when it is already 80 F outside, is still a lot: - flat white is more reflective that gloss white, which is far more reflective than polished metal, tinfoil etc. When you can, like on louvers behind glass, use flat white. Never use tinfoil. - white with a little grime on it loses a lot of its reflectiveness to infrared and can easily double the heat absorbed -- 5kW instead of 2.5kW for instance. This will double the amount of electricity your air conditioning will use, or with no air conditioning, will double the difference between the cabin and air temperature. Keep it clean. - "whiteness" in reflectivity is something that varies with the colour of the light. It is possible that something is white in the visible spectrum, but much "darker" to infrared. Before painting or re-painting the deck, it would be very useful to paint a few scraps of steel with the options you are considering, leave them out in the sun on a piece of insulation where there is no wind, and then go feel which one is cooler. This experiment will take all the possible radiative effects into account and find the best of your options for the tropics. All other paint effects, important to keeping a boat warm in cold weather are far smaller than the effects like: - Convection in air -- in a cold place, that cold wind will suck more heat out of the steel hull of the boat than any colour of paint can hold onto. - Convection and conduction in water -- having 1/5-1/3 of the hull area awash with cold water will be a far bigger effect than the thermal properties of any paint on the top sides and deck. So for exclusively cold-climate cruising, don't worry about paint colour holding onto heat for you, it is not important. In fact, if you cruise cold climates exclusively, painting a dark colour to intentionally absorb a little heat of the sun in the day will be the most effective use of paint colour. Even if your decks never get warmer than the cabin, to actually start warming your cabin (solar gain), then at least when the warmed decks lose heat, less of that loss will have come from the heat produced from your firewood (lets call it solar cushioning). Also, even if you expect it to get up to say 25 C max in the days (Newfoundland / Cape Breton), where you might be concerned about a cabin of a dark-painted boat being hot in the day, I would still paint it a dark colour. One can always open hatches, or rely on the night to cool the boat. I would prefer it this way because in the daytime, the boat turns into a natural dryer. I find a dry boat to be a more comfortable boat whatever the temperature, especially at night. Capturing a little heat in the day is a larger effect than the losses due to paint colour at night because total heat emitted in radiation is a function of (absolute) temperature to the 4th power, and your boat is quite cool as compared to the sun and close (in terms of absolute temperature) to the temperature of the surroundings even when the surroundings seem cold to us. Painting black will capture far more heat from the sun than it will radiatively lose at night in an environment that is only 20-30C cooler than your boat. Painting to use some heat from the day will make more of an impact on the total costs of firewood. Also, there are some colours that make a boat quite pretty in pictures with icebergs in the background. The other small effect is that materials and coatings do not have the same "whiteness" in reflectivity as emissivity -- that is their whiteness in reflection does not tell you the entire story as far as their also refusing to give up heat. In general painting it white will decrease energy absorbed in sun and energy lost in cold. An example of how this is not the entire story comes from the white paint on the space shuttle. The paint used on the space shuttles is highly reflective in absorption in the hot infrared light frequencies that dominate sunlight, but also has a high emissivity (is quite black in the sense of giving away heat) in the moderate temperature infrared. This means, it absorbs little hot light, and readily re-radiates cooler light, making the shuttle even cooler than if it were just simply white over the entire spectrum and equal in absorption and emmisivity. This is fine in the tropics and the previous experiment takes this small effect into account. It is only worth knowing this effect exists when the air and water are constantly 26 C and the other ways to passively get rid of heat are not thousands or millions of times more effective. Like I said, the previous experiment with scraps of metal takes this into account automatically. However, because of this effect, using the best paint from the previous experiment would result in a boat that is cooler in cold climates, even if it is only a miniscule amount. If you are really interested in this effect, there is a different experiment you can use. Paint aluminum water bottles with the paint options, fill them with hot water and leave them outside on a still night, not touching anything. Just for fun, paint one black. Check in a little while to see which one feels warmer, better holds its heat. I doubt you will feel any difference, even with the black one, regardless of how great the paint is. The air is sucking out far more heat than the radiant losses. Throw them into cold water for a few minutes and you will see even less difference between them. The effect of radiant emissivity is really only important in space, and in the vacuum in the double-wall of a thermos. So in conclusion, paint it white if the boat is ever going anywhere even temperate that will get warm in the summer. Take the time to test the white paint options if the boat will spend any time in the tropics as that small % of absorption can easily double or half, doubling or halving the cooling requirements or cabin temperature increase and your comfort. Keep it clean for the same reason. If the boat is only going to very cold climates, and air conditioning is never a concern, paint it any colour you like, darker being a little easier on the firewood budget because of solar gain/cushioning. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gcode.fi@... Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 07:30:03 +0200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] sailboat color I am with Ben on this. Guys, both heat (from the sun) and PV solar cells (from the sun) work for the same reason. Incoming solar enrgy in the form of radiation. The sun delivers about 1 kW / square meter near the equator. For a 10m boat, 2.5 m wide, thats about 25 kW of energy input. Most of it is reflected, but the difference between shiny, white or absobent, black is over 200%. (A plastic framed camera in a car will melt, if it is on the dash in africa. The black plastic just absorbs heat, and in a closed stopped car there is no convection for cooler air). If you are in the north, a dark hull will make it colder ! In the north, you need to heat your boat, not cool it, and the darker it is the easier and faster it loses heat. For really comfortable boating in the north (scandinavia) and an extended season, dual-paned windows and extra insulation are very desirable. They are too unusual and expesive for production builders, though. In Finland, on the water, it is always cold (even in summer, apart from this one (worlds warmest in history, had 37C in Finland)). According to Steve Dashew (whose numbers I for one trust) simple shades in windows and awnings represent over 30% total energy savings in cooling. www.setsail.com in the FPB articales. On dive boats, in the caribbean, any dark surface gets hot, in my experience. So, if you paint your hull dark, you will need better insulation, more heating and more cooling. I would suggest light tints only. > On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 02:49:54AM -0000, mdemers2005@... > wrote: > > > > is darker color hull(like navy blue)makes a steel boat much warmer > > inside even if it is well insulated? I wanted to paint my boat white > > to keep it cooler, than last week I spoke with a marina owner, in my > > area, who told me that if the boat is well insulated it shouldn't be > > warmer with a dark color, I am a bit skeptical, that is why I am > > asking... > > Lesson from living aboard in the Caribbean: painting your boat anything > but white is an expensive way to make yourself miserable. I've been on > boats that were later repainted a different color - both from white to > dark and from dark to white - and it really makes a huge difference. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23746|23740|2010-07-31 12:47:26|Mark Hamill|Re: sailboat color|One small observation about color--I painted my cabin tops white and the reflected light was really intense to the point that i had to wear sunglasses constantly--i ended up painting the area infront of the cockpit where i did most of my standing a tan color which helped considerably. Further to Matts point that area was quite a bit warmer to the touch than the pure white next to it. I dont have a Bimini or a dodger which would eliminate or reduce the problem i experienced. Mind you I did develope a wicked "argh matey" sort of squint.--- MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Malone" To: Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 6:32 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] sailboat color > > > I agree, paint it white to decrease the absorption of the many kW of power > that are beating down on your boat in the tropics. I am a big fan of > white. Having as much white as possible inside also cuts the cost, or > increases the effectiveness of illumination. > > Hot climates vs. cold climates... before one worries about paint, consider > that cooling requires electricity, and heating requires firewood. > Electricity is in short supply on a boat and hard to store in quantities > important to air conditioning. Firewood is typically cheap and easy to > store. If your boat is going to the tropics and cold areas, paint for > the tropics. Paint it white. > > There are some small and hidden effects that should be considered. > Painting your boat white may reflect 90%+ of the solar power, however, > (using 25kW as a starting point) even the 2.5kW that might be absorbed, > when it is already 80 F outside, is still a lot: > > - flat white is more reflective that gloss white, which is far more > reflective than polished metal, tinfoil etc. When you can, like on > louvers behind glass, use flat white. Never use tinfoil. > > - white with a little grime on it loses a lot of its reflectiveness to > infrared and can easily double the heat absorbed -- 5kW instead of 2.5kW > for instance. This will double the amount of electricity your air > conditioning will use, or with no air conditioning, will double the > difference between the cabin and air temperature. Keep it clean. > > - "whiteness" in reflectivity is something that varies with the colour of > the light. It is possible that something is white in the visible > spectrum, but much "darker" to infrared. Before painting or re-painting > the deck, it would be very useful to paint a few scraps of steel with the > options you are considering, leave them out in the sun on a piece of > insulation where there is no wind, and then go feel which one is cooler. > This experiment will take all the possible radiative effects into account > and find the best of your options for the tropics. > > All other paint effects, important to keeping a boat warm in cold weather > are far smaller than the effects like: > > - Convection in air -- in a cold place, that cold wind will suck more heat > out of the steel hull of the boat than any colour of paint can hold onto. > - Convection and conduction in water -- having 1/5-1/3 of the hull area > awash with cold water will be a far bigger effect than the thermal > properties of any paint on the top sides and deck. > > So for exclusively cold-climate cruising, don't worry about paint colour > holding onto heat for you, it is not important. > > In fact, if you cruise cold climates exclusively, painting a dark colour > to intentionally absorb a little heat of the sun in the day will be the > most effective use of paint colour. Even if your decks never get warmer > than the cabin, to actually start warming your cabin (solar gain), then at > least when the warmed decks lose heat, less of that loss will have come > from the heat produced from your firewood (lets call it solar cushioning). > > Also, even if you expect it to get up to say 25 C max in the days > (Newfoundland / Cape Breton), where you might be concerned about a cabin > of a dark-painted boat being hot in the day, I would still paint it a dark > colour. One can always open hatches, or rely on the night to cool the > boat. I would prefer it this way because in the daytime, the boat turns > into a natural dryer. I find a dry boat to be a more comfortable boat > whatever the temperature, especially at night. > > Capturing a little heat in the day is a larger effect than the losses due > to paint colour at night because total heat emitted in radiation is a > function of (absolute) temperature to the 4th power, and your boat is > quite > cool as compared to the sun and close (in terms of absolute temperature) > to the temperature of the surroundings even when the surroundings seem > cold to us. Painting black will capture far more heat > from the sun than it will radiatively lose at night in an environment that > is only > 20-30C cooler than your boat. Painting to use some heat from the day will > make more of an impact on the total costs of firewood. Also, there are > some colours that make a boat quite pretty in pictures with icebergs in > the background. > > The other small effect is that materials and coatings do not have the same > "whiteness" in reflectivity as emissivity -- that is their whiteness in > reflection does not tell you the entire story as far as their also > refusing to give up heat. In general painting it white will decrease > energy absorbed in sun and energy lost in cold. An example of how this > is not the entire story comes from the white paint on the space shuttle. > The paint used on the space shuttles is highly reflective in absorption in > the hot infrared light frequencies that dominate sunlight, but also has a > high emissivity (is quite black in the sense of giving away heat) in the > moderate temperature infrared. This means, it absorbs little hot light, > and readily re-radiates cooler light, making the shuttle even cooler than > if it were just simply white over the entire spectrum and equal in > absorption and emmisivity. This is fine in the tropics and the previous > experiment takes this small effect into account. > It is only worth knowing this effect exists when the air and water are > constantly 26 C and the other ways to passively get rid of heat are not > thousands or millions of times more effective. Like I said, the previous > experiment with scraps of metal takes this into account automatically. > > However, because of this effect, using the best paint from the previous > experiment would result in a boat that is cooler in cold climates, even if > it is only a miniscule amount. If you are really interested in this > effect, there is a different experiment you can use. Paint aluminum > water bottles with the paint options, fill them with hot water and leave > them outside on a still night, not touching anything. Just for fun, paint > one black. Check in a little while to see which one feels warmer, better > holds its heat. I doubt you will feel any difference, even with the black > one, regardless of how great the paint is. The air is sucking out far > more heat than the radiant losses. Throw them into cold water for a few > minutes and you will see even less difference between them. The effect of > radiant emissivity is really only important in space, and in the vacuum in > the double-wall of a thermos. > > So in conclusion, paint it white if the boat is ever going anywhere even > temperate that will get warm in the summer. Take the time to test the > white paint options if the boat will spend any time in the tropics as that > small % of absorption can easily double or half, doubling or halving the > cooling requirements or cabin temperature increase and your comfort. Keep > it clean for the same reason. If the boat is only going to very cold > climates, and air conditioning is never a concern, paint it any colour you > like, darker being a little easier on the firewood budget because of > solar gain/cushioning. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gcode.fi@... > Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 07:30:03 +0200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] sailboat color > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am with Ben on this. > > Guys, both heat (from the sun) and PV solar cells (from the sun) work > > for the same reason. > > Incoming solar enrgy in the form of radiation. > > > > The sun delivers about 1 kW / square meter near the equator. > > For a 10m boat, 2.5 m wide, thats about 25 kW of energy input. > > > > Most of it is reflected, but the difference between shiny, white or > > absobent, black is over 200%. > > (A plastic framed camera in a car will melt, if it is on the dash in > > africa. The black plastic just absorbs heat, and in a closed stopped car > > there is no convection for cooler air). > > > > If you are in the north, a dark hull will make it colder ! > > In the north, you need to heat your boat, not cool it, and the darker it > > is the easier and faster it loses heat. > > For really comfortable boating in the north (scandinavia) and an > > extended season, dual-paned windows and extra insulation are very > desirable. > > They are too unusual and expesive for production builders, though. > > In Finland, on the water, it is always cold (even in summer, apart from > > this one (worlds warmest in history, had 37C in Finland)). > > > > According to Steve Dashew (whose numbers I for one trust) simple shades > > in windows and awnings represent over 30% total energy savings in cooling. > > www.setsail.com in the FPB articales. > > > > On dive boats, in the caribbean, any dark surface gets hot, in my > > experience. > > > > So, if you paint your hull dark, you will need better insulation, more > > heating and more cooling. > > I would suggest light tints only. > > > >> On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 02:49:54AM -0000, mdemers2005@... > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > is darker color hull(like navy blue)makes a steel boat much warmer > >> > inside even if it is well insulated? I wanted to paint my boat white > >> > to keep it cooler, than last week I spoke with a marina owner, in my > >> > area, who told me that if the boat is well insulated it shouldn't be > >> > warmer with a dark color, I am a bit skeptical, that is why I am > >> > asking... > >> > >> Lesson from living aboard in the Caribbean: painting your boat anything > >> but white is an expensive way to make yourself miserable. I've been on > >> boats that were later repainted a different color - both from white to > >> dark and from dark to white - and it really makes a huge difference. > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 23747|23740|2010-07-31 12:51:16|Mark Hamill|Re: sailboat color|The other thing about dark colors is that they show "imperfections" a lot more. Hence the expression "Dark cars look better in the shade" MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23748|23740|2010-07-31 13:31:03|h|Re: sailboat color|I had wondered about this for a while, lucklily the paint I used only came in white, gray and blue so that was easy. Obviously by the depth that you've all gone into, this is a hard to solve problem on boat in the tropics, up here I have no complaints, though if I'm dried out in the hot sun it gets a little gross inside but in the water it stays a few degrees above water temp which happens to be nice and cool, the water in the tropics, maybe not so cool. I've heard that unpainted stainless is another unpleasantly hot thing to have on a boat in the tropics? Don't know why I went to all the trouble of masking (and unmasking, still not done entirely) all the stainless trim on the boat should have just sandblasted and painted it along with the rest of the hull if I'm going to have to paint it once I go somewhere warm. I find most of the heat that does come into the boat is from the large pilot house windows, and most of the heat loss in the winter too, I might this winter put up a second set of thin plastic on those windows, being the highest point most of the heat in the boat hangs out there in the pilot house, which is a convenient place to vent it in the summer but not so in the winter| 23749|23740|2010-07-31 16:04:38|maxcamirand|Re: sailboat color|From the bridge of a ship, white is /less/ visible than dark colors, in most conditions, and especially in conditions of poor detection by radar. It blends in with the whitecaps. This has been my experience as a merchant marine officer. Regards, -Max --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > If you are to be around tropical temperatures white or highly reflective surfaces are the only way to go. Remember insulation only slows thermal transfer, a black surface only means a higher temperature differential to start with. Thus more heat to the interior. > > For northwrn climates there might be some advantage. Honestly though they don't reccomend such dark colors for homes so it is likely not an advantage on a boat either. Plus I'm concerned about visibility, i would think that a dark boat would be a huge disadvantage on the water at night. > > David A Frantz | 23750|23750|2010-07-31 16:21:19|martin|Sail boat colour|There was an interesting doc. on a large tanker ship and it's choice of a brilliant white paint. They claimed it reduced the evaporation of their petroleum cargo by a large percentage. They also had to issue dark sunglasses to the crew due to the intense reflection. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 23751|23750|2010-07-31 17:31:00|brentswain38|Re: Sail boat colour|When I first painted my boat it was dark green. In minus 12 C , in bright sun the hull was warm to the touch. The lockers all stayed bone dry in winter. In 89 I painted her white. The lockers started to get a little musty in winter. . When I painted the hull dark green again, the lockers dried out,the mustiness went away, and on a sunny ,day it made a huge difference in winter. I find dark green is preferable as far south as Baja in winter, any further south and I paint her white again, returning to dark green when I plan to spend a winter in northern latitudes. I found crossing the equator with even light beige decks wa sfar hotter than with whiter decks. The last time I was in Tonga I painted the decks white and it was like adding air conditioning crossing back across the equator. Sunglasses are easier to deal with than heat. You should be wearing them in tropical sun anyway. Beige is cool enough in BC summers, but I am considering going for gray for the cabin tops in October, to help melt ice of in winter and keep things a little warmer in the cold, clear arctic outflows. I rarely walk on the cabin top , so the heat there won't be as bad as gray decks in summer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > There was an interesting doc. on a large tanker ship and it's choice of a brilliant white paint. They claimed it reduced the evaporation of their petroleum cargo by a large percentage. They also had to issue dark sunglasses to the crew due to the intense reflection. > Martin (Prairie Maid) > | 23752|23752|2010-07-31 17:35:15|brentswain38|floating mast and snorkle|Wrap enough closed cell foam around your snorkle to float it and the mask ,and duct tape it on. Then it will never sink again.| 23753|23750|2010-07-31 19:21:13|mickeyolaf|Re: Sail boat colour|I sprayed my decks with silver grey zolatone which has a lot of white flecks in it but still looks grey to the eye. As I age my eyes dislike glare even more. The silver grey colour is light but not reflective like white. Plus I plan to break up the larger areas of paint on the cabin house with grey coloured treadmaster and on the pilothouse roof with solar panels. A compromise that I hope works and won't be too hot on the decks. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > There was an interesting doc. on a large tanker ship and it's choice of a brilliant white paint. They claimed it reduced the evaporation of their petroleum cargo by a large percentage. They also had to issue dark sunglasses to the crew due to the intense reflection. > Martin (Prairie Maid) > | 23754|23754|2010-07-31 19:56:56|mickeyolaf|Danish Steel|I've added 3 pictures of an interesting steel boat I saw on a Danish canal. Great cabin aft. Homebuilt, finished by the second owner/builder. Pictures are with the pictures of Andes.| 23755|23755|2010-07-31 20:23:22|wild_explorer|Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|My attempt to make origamiboat's hull model http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/model-v77-from-3d-to-pattern-to-hull-model| 23756|23754|2010-08-01 14:05:33|h|Re: Danish Steel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I've added 3 pictures of an interesting steel boat I saw on a Danish canal. Great cabin aft. > > Homebuilt, finished by the second owner/builder. > > Pictures are with the pictures of Andes. > Wow is that a flat slope coming down from the raised aft deck, stairs would always be fun but a slide weeee! What is that called when the deck is up like that poop deck or bridge deck or something.| 23757|23755|2010-08-01 14:07:37|Gord Schnell|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|Jim et all You might want to try Brass Shim Stock instead of cardboard. It exhibits all the characteristics of steel sheets. You can cut it with scissors, weld it with solder and a small soldering iron. Used 6" wide material, place carbon paper on top and then the paper plans. Just trace the plate outlines and "cutout" details on the shim stock, cut out the hull (plates) halves, deck and cabin and solder the edges together, like you will weld them together for your boat. The shim stock assumes the curve that the steel will take. The model is very accurate, very strong and floats in a bathtub (for ballast / balance testing). When you are done testing, it makes a really nice mantlepiece model of your boat. Shim Stock: http://www.newmantools.com/precisionbrand/shimbras.htm This stuff is available at most professional (trades) supply companies. Acklands is an example. Gord On 31-Jul-10, at 5:22 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > My attempt to make origamiboat's hull model > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/model-v77-from-3d-to-pattern-to-hull-model > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23758|23758|2010-08-01 15:26:31|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|sail boat color|It seems my question got a lot of answers... thanks for all the replies... I think I'll stick to my first choice; white for the hull...and maybe egg-shell(lightly off-white) for the deck... Martin.| 23759|23755|2010-08-01 16:47:32|brentswain38|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|With steel ,scoring the hull plate half way thru , for about six inches beyond the end of the chine, with a 1/8th inch grinding disc, eliminates the knuckle, and eases the round into the chine. This is fully welded before going any further. The transom V is cranked down with a hydraulic jack, as shown in the book, and video. Fibreglass sheet, which consists of one layer of mat wetted out on a piece of arborite , makes a good modeling material. That lets you fibreglass the seams ,which makes a model you can bounce off the walls. Industrial plastics sells this fibreglass sheet by the foot. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > My attempt to make origamiboat's hull model > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/model-v77-from-3d-to-pattern-to-hull-model > | 23760|23755|2010-08-02 12:56:04|wild_explorer|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|Gord, you made very nice model. You need to publish the picture of it. Yep, shim stock (brass or steel) is very good for final model. I like cardboard I have, simply because it disposable and easy to work on it with razor blade or modeling knife. Best of all, it is almost free - cost me dozen of donuts for bunch of big sheets. Printing on a large thick media cost almost the same price as CNC laser cutting in my area. I will use shim stock for the final model. My model needs more works and, at this time, disposable material is OK. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Jim et all > You might want to try Brass Shim Stock instead of cardboard. It > exhibits all the characteristics of steel sheets. You can cut it with > scissors, weld it with solder and a small soldering iron. Used 6" wide > material, place carbon paper on top and then the paper plans. Just | 23761|23755|2010-08-02 13:27:39|wild_explorer|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|Brent, "scoring" is very clever field solution of yours. It serves double purpose - technological and cosmetical. The end of the chin's seam needs to be a long line with several millimeters wide at the beginning and zero at the end. It is possible to do it with CNC cutting, but with "handheld tools" (torch, plasma cutter) will be almost impossible to make. "Scoring" does it, and make it invisible from outside. That why (I think) I have longer chin line than in 3D - the pattern ask for longer line to be more "foldable". It might be just clearly visible on my model. I need to take deeper look into it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With steel ,scoring the hull plate half way thru , for about six inches beyond the end of the chine, with a 1/8th inch grinding disc, eliminates the knuckle, and eases the round into the chine. This is fully welded before going any further. The transom V is cranked down with a hydraulic jack, as shown in the book, and video. | 23762|23755|2010-08-02 14:22:02|brentswain38|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|Scoring the chine with a 1/8th disc lets you shorten the chine. Another way of eliminating the hump, is by making sure that the angle of the cut at the end of the chine is as fine as possible. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, "scoring" is very clever field solution of yours. It serves double purpose - technological and cosmetical. The end of the chin's seam needs to be a long line with several millimeters wide at the beginning and zero at the end. It is possible to do it with CNC cutting, but with "handheld tools" (torch, plasma cutter) will be almost impossible to make. "Scoring" does it, and make it invisible from outside. > > That why (I think) I have longer chin line than in 3D - the pattern ask for longer line to be more "foldable". It might be just clearly visible on my model. I need to take deeper look into it. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > With steel ,scoring the hull plate half way thru , for about six inches beyond the end of the chine, with a 1/8th inch grinding disc, eliminates the knuckle, and eases the round into the chine. This is fully welded before going any further. The transom V is cranked down with a hydraulic jack, as shown in the book, and video. > | 23763|23750|2010-08-02 23:46:36|Matt Malone|Re: Reducing glare: Re: Sail boat colour|Yes, white decks cause a lot of glare. I have stuck with sunglasses but I too have developed a good squint. I have these mesh bags, black mesh, made to hold dirty laundry. I stretched one between the handrails on the coach roof just in front of the cockpit like a trampoline. You can step on it, it gives and you are standing on the deck. It is OK for footing. When you are not stepping on it, it is raised up off the deck. The mesh absorbs some light, loses the heat to the air going by. This heat seems to stay out of the cabin. Glare from the deck has to come back up through the mesh. The lower I sit in the cockpit, the more oblique the angle on the mesh and the less glare is possible. If I had a dodger, I would use it to cut glare. I imagine in really rough weather (like I have never been in in a small boat) this stuff might rip and come off when a wave washes the decks, but likely the dodger is gone too at this point. I got these mesh bags at Walmart I think. I have seen solar energy designs that use mesh to absorb sunlight and transfer it efficiently to an airflow, in that case to use the heat. Also, some women have described that a loose black dress is actually cooler with a little breeze because it keeps the heat from penetrating and heating the wearer. In this case, the fabric is rejecting the heat to the air. It is where I got the idea. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 21:29:19 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sail boat colour When I first painted my boat it was dark green. In minus 12 C , in bright sun the hull was warm to the touch. The lockers all stayed bone dry in winter. In 89 I painted her white. The lockers started to get a little musty in winter. . When I painted the hull dark green again, the lockers dried out,the mustiness went away, and on a sunny ,day it made a huge difference in winter. I find dark green is preferable as far south as Baja in winter, any further south and I paint her white again, returning to dark green when I plan to spend a winter in northern latitudes. I found crossing the equator with even light beige decks wa sfar hotter than with whiter decks. The last time I was in Tonga I painted the decks white and it was like adding air conditioning crossing back across the equator. Sunglasses are easier to deal with than heat. You should be wearing them in tropical sun anyway. Beige is cool enough in BC summers, but I am considering going for gray for the cabin tops in October, to help melt ice of in winter and keep things a little warmer in the cold, clear arctic outflows. I rarely walk on the cabin top , so the heat there won't be as bad as gray decks in summer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > There was an interesting doc. on a large tanker ship and it's choice of a brilliant white paint. They claimed it reduced the evaporation of their petroleum cargo by a large percentage. They also had to issue dark sunglasses to the crew due to the intense reflection. > Martin (Prairie Maid) > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23764|23764|2010-08-03 16:07:26|ANDREW AIREY|Reducing Glare|I think my eyesight got noticeably worse after a summers marquee erecting in 2002.Same reason,reflected sunlight off large white surfaces. Incidentally the way they manned the marquee crews seemed pretty close to the way they manned the old sailing ships but without the sea shanties cheers Andy Airey| 23765|23750|2010-08-03 19:02:04|funkybackhand|Re: Sail boat colour|I think on a small boat RED would be best...so larger vessels can see it.| 23766|23750|2010-08-03 19:06:24|maxcamirand|Reducing glare: Re: Sail boat colour|Hi Matt, That's an excellent idea. I'll keep an eye out for a stretchy black fabric that I could use to do the same thing. It would be especially useful for the areas of the boat where I can't put up an awning underway. I find glare to be extremely annoying, but I don't want to heat up the boat by painting the deck even a light beige. Your point about the lesser penetration of light into black fabric is also a good one. I took that into consideration when choosing black fabric for my new sails. Reports mostly indicate that darker fabrics, despite absorbing more heat energy, last longer in the sun. The reason is that destructive rays strike the pigment and turn into heat without penetrating far into the material. Regards, -Max --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Yes, white decks cause a lot of glare. I have stuck with sunglasses but I too have developed a good squint. I have these mesh bags, black mesh, made to hold dirty laundry. I stretched one between the handrails on the coach roof just in front of the cockpit like a trampoline. You can step on it, it gives and you are standing on the deck. It is OK for footing. When you are not stepping on it, it is raised up off the deck. The mesh absorbs some light, loses the heat to the air going by. This heat seems to stay out of the cabin. Glare from the deck has to come back up through the mesh. The lower I sit in the cockpit, the more oblique the angle on the mesh and the less glare is possible. If I had a dodger, I would use it to cut glare. I imagine in really rough weather (like I have never been in in a small boat) this stuff might rip and come off when a wave washes the decks, but likely the dodger is gone too at this point. I got these mesh bags at Walmart I think. > > I have seen solar energy designs that use mesh to absorb sunlight and transfer it efficiently to an airflow, in that case to use the heat. Also, some women have described that a loose black dress is actually cooler with a little breeze because it keeps the heat from penetrating and heating the wearer. In this case, the fabric is rejecting the heat to the air. It is where I got the idea. > > Matt | 23767|23750|2010-08-03 20:02:51|Matt Malone|Re: Reducing glare: Re: Sail boat colour|An old scientist at the university I worked at would mix a little lamp black into any epoxy he used in experiments for the same reason. He said the lamp black would absorb the UV and protect (most) of the epoxy from degradation. It certainly did keep it from taking on progressively less attractive yellow colours with time. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: maxcamirand@... Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:05:43 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Reducing glare: Re: Sail boat colour Hi Matt, That's an excellent idea. I'll keep an eye out for a stretchy black fabric that I could use to do the same thing. It would be especially useful for the areas of the boat where I can't put up an awning underway. I find glare to be extremely annoying, but I don't want to heat up the boat by painting the deck even a light beige. Your point about the lesser penetration of light into black fabric is also a good one. I took that into consideration when choosing black fabric for my new sails. Reports mostly indicate that darker fabrics, despite absorbing more heat energy, last longer in the sun. The reason is that destructive rays strike the pigment and turn into heat without penetrating far into the material. Regards, -Max --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Yes, white decks cause a lot of glare. I have stuck with sunglasses but I too have developed a good squint. I have these mesh bags, black mesh, made to hold dirty laundry. I stretched one between the handrails on the coach roof just in front of the cockpit like a trampoline. You can step on it, it gives and you are standing on the deck. It is OK for footing. When you are not stepping on it, it is raised up off the deck. The mesh absorbs some light, loses the heat to the air going by. This heat seems to stay out of the cabin. Glare from the deck has to come back up through the mesh. The lower I sit in the cockpit, the more oblique the angle on the mesh and the less glare is possible. If I had a dodger, I would use it to cut glare. I imagine in really rough weather (like I have never been in in a small boat) this stuff might rip and come off when a wave washes the decks, but likely the dodger is gone too at this point. I got these mesh bags at Walmart I think. > > I have seen solar energy designs that use mesh to absorb sunlight and transfer it efficiently to an airflow, in that case to use the heat. Also, some women have described that a loose black dress is actually cooler with a little breeze because it keeps the heat from penetrating and heating the wearer. In this case, the fabric is rejecting the heat to the air. It is where I got the idea. > > Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23768|23750|2010-08-04 13:36:57|Mark Hamill|Re: Reducing glare: Re: Sail boat colour|Max: Further to Matts idea of the black material I wonder if a tent and awning manufacturer or trampoline maker might be a place to ask--they often have some interesting fabrics and woven goods. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23769|23750|2010-08-04 17:37:53|brentswain38|Re: Sail boat colour|One of my 31's went thru the Carribean painted red. The problem was, it made it easy for the US coastguard to see it. They were harassed daily by the US coastguard. They were actually dense enough to believe a smuggler would paint his boat bright red. Duhhh!!! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "funkybackhand" wrote: > > I think on a small boat RED would be best...so larger vessels can see it. > | 23770|23750|2010-08-04 17:45:16|brentswain38|Reducing glare: Re: Sail boat colour|I have black poly water pipe on my rigging, which has been out in the sun since 1976, but is as good as the day I put it on. If it had been anything but black , it would have broken up in three years. I carried water in Baja bags across the Pacific. The water in blue bags got swampy, from the UV penetration, but the water in black stayed as fresh as the day I put it in. More people are going for back sail covers and awnings , to keep the UV from breaking them down. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > An old scientist at the university I worked at would mix a little lamp black into any epoxy he used in experiments for the same reason. He said the lamp black would absorb the UV and protect (most) of the epoxy from degradation. It certainly did keep it from taking on progressively less attractive yellow colours with time. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: maxcamirand@... > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:05:43 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Reducing glare: Re: Sail boat colour > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Matt, > > > > That's an excellent idea. I'll keep an eye out for a stretchy black fabric that I could use to do the same thing. It would be especially useful for the areas of the boat where I can't put up an awning underway. I find glare to be extremely annoying, but I don't want to heat up the boat by painting the deck even a light beige. > > > > Your point about the lesser penetration of light into black fabric is also a good one. I took that into consideration when choosing black fabric for my new sails. Reports mostly indicate that darker fabrics, despite absorbing more heat energy, last longer in the sun. The reason is that destructive rays strike the pigment and turn into heat without penetrating far into the material. > > > > Regards, > > -Max > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, white decks cause a lot of glare. I have stuck with sunglasses but I too have developed a good squint. I have these mesh bags, black mesh, made to hold dirty laundry. I stretched one between the handrails on the coach roof just in front of the cockpit like a trampoline. You can step on it, it gives and you are standing on the deck. It is OK for footing. When you are not stepping on it, it is raised up off the deck. The mesh absorbs some light, loses the heat to the air going by. This heat seems to stay out of the cabin. Glare from the deck has to come back up through the mesh. The lower I sit in the cockpit, the more oblique the angle on the mesh and the less glare is possible. If I had a dodger, I would use it to cut glare. I imagine in really rough weather (like I have never been in in a small boat) this stuff might rip and come off when a wave washes the decks, but likely the dodger is gone too at this point. I got these mesh bags at Walmart I think. > > > > > > I have seen solar energy designs that use mesh to absorb sunlight and transfer it efficiently to an airflow, in that case to use the heat. Also, some women have described that a loose black dress is actually cooler with a little breeze because it keeps the heat from penetrating and heating the wearer. In this case, the fabric is rejecting the heat to the air. It is where I got the idea. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23771|23750|2010-08-04 18:42:04|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Sail boat colour|I used to work in the greenhouse industry. Red plastics of all kinds lose their color the fastest. We sold parts that were color coded and always dissuaded customers from picking red, because in a couple of months they were white. ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 5:37 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sail boat colour > One of my 31's went thru the Carribean painted red. The problem was, it > made it easy for the US coastguard to see it. They were harassed daily by > the US coastguard. They were actually dense enough to believe a smuggler > would paint his boat bright red. > Duhhh!!! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "funkybackhand" > wrote: >> >> I think on a small boat RED would be best...so larger vessels can see it. >> > > > | 23772|23755|2010-08-04 19:11:13|wild_explorer|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|Correction: My 3D model was set up as hybrid of hard and soft chin hull. And I got the pattern exactly how I set it up. I had to convert 3D model to "origami" style. In the process, I lost about 0.5 tonne of displacement and had to adjust lines plan. Now I have similar dimensions, speed characteristics and hydrostatics as for previous model (except displacement). New pattern looks similar to Brent's pattern. I need to make new model from this pattern. It was noted before, that "origami" boat will have similar appearance and lines plan. Below is the picture of unusual hull form (for origami) I was able to make "origami" pattern for. Wide "aircraft carrier" type over-hanged deck in front part of the hull. http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/Unusual_origami_hullform.JPG| 23773|23755|2010-08-04 21:57:25|h|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|Your right about the bow thing, looks more like a power boat design, why all the flotation up forward like that? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Correction: > My 3D model was set up as hybrid of hard and soft chin hull. And I got the pattern exactly how I set it up. I had to convert 3D model to "origami" style. In the process, I lost about 0.5 tonne of displacement and had to adjust lines plan. > > Now I have similar dimensions, speed characteristics and hydrostatics as for previous model (except displacement). New pattern looks similar to Brent's pattern. I need to make new model from this pattern. > > It was noted before, that "origami" boat will have similar appearance and lines plan. > > Below is the picture of unusual hull form (for origami) I was able to make "origami" pattern for. Wide "aircraft carrier" type over-hanged deck in front part of the hull. > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/Unusual_origami_hullform.JPG > | 23774|23755|2010-08-04 22:27:05|Matt Malone|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|I am real bad at yahoo groups when it comes to photos. Is there a side view of that design ? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: haidan@... Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 01:57:22 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model) Your right about the bow thing, looks more like a power boat design, why all the flotation up forward like that? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Correction: > My 3D model was set up as hybrid of hard and soft chin hull. And I got the pattern exactly how I set it up. I had to convert 3D model to "origami" style. In the process, I lost about 0.5 tonne of displacement and had to adjust lines plan. > > Now I have similar dimensions, speed characteristics and hydrostatics as for previous model (except displacement). New pattern looks similar to Brent's pattern. I need to make new model from this pattern. > > It was noted before, that "origami" boat will have similar appearance and lines plan. > > Below is the picture of unusual hull form (for origami) I was able to make "origami" pattern for. Wide "aircraft carrier" type over-hanged deck in front part of the hull. > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/Unusual_origami_hullform.JPG > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23775|23755|2010-08-04 23:25:19|wild_explorer|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|I accidentally bumped into such form when I was converting "normal" hull to "origami". Hydros is not what sailboat needs, but close to normal (flotation near longitudinal center). Profile view is also "normal" for a sailboat hull. It is just the deck/forward_part which is widens from the mid-area forward (transverse) and has "flower" shape from waterline. That why I said it looks like "aircraft carrier". I do not see any use for it as sailboat hull - just strange shape which could be done as "origami". --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "h" wrote: > > Your right about the bow thing, looks more like a power boat design, why all the flotation up forward like that? | 23776|23750|2010-08-05 14:21:54|maxcamirand|Reducing glare: Re: Sail boat colour|I will look for a suitable fabric in the fabric wholesale district of Mexico City, where I spend a lot of my time. That's where I found my sail fabric, as well. I expect it will be cheap, so I will likely buy enough to replace the covers a few times over, and possibly to make some more covers when other cruisers see my boat and take to the idea. Fabric prices are so high in Canada that it's usually cheaper to buy finished products than the fabric to make your own projects. If I were limited to buying in Canada, I would definitely go see a manufacturer, as you suggested. Regards, -Max --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Max: Further to Matts idea of the black material I wonder if a tent and awning manufacturer or trampoline maker might be a place to ask--they often have some interesting fabrics and woven goods. > MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23777|23755|2010-08-06 17:52:37|brentswain38|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|She looks good up to the waterline and aft, but get rid of that excessive flare in the foredeck, The concave shape between the waterline and the foredeck edge just wouldn't happen, Pull the foredeck in closer to the profile of the waterline. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Correction: > My 3D model was set up as hybrid of hard and soft chin hull. And I got the pattern exactly how I set it up. I had to convert 3D model to "origami" style. In the process, I lost about 0.5 tonne of displacement and had to adjust lines plan. > > Now I have similar dimensions, speed characteristics and hydrostatics as for previous model (except displacement). New pattern looks similar to Brent's pattern. I need to make new model from this pattern. > > It was noted before, that "origami" boat will have similar appearance and lines plan. > > Below is the picture of unusual hull form (for origami) I was able to make "origami" pattern for. Wide "aircraft carrier" type over-hanged deck in front part of the hull. > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/Unusual_origami_hullform.JPG > | 23778|23755|2010-08-06 22:41:07|wild_explorer|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|Just checked it again - it is possible to make pattern for such shape. I would not waste my time on that though. It has very short seam line and will require very precise cutting. You will hardly recognize boat in such pattern. It is just unpractical. What I noticed so far, longer seams in the pattern give more precise hull shape. Shorter ones needs more precise cutting and affect final hull's shape more. I already have hard time to make "perfect pattern" and to keep hydros I want for 3D hull I like. Even slight changes to lines plan affect whole "origami pattern" (changes pattern shape slightly). This convince me that if you want to build 2 boats AND: - have the same precise pattern cutout - follow the same procedure to put hull together - do final hull adjustments according lines plan recommendations You will have EXACTLY the same hulls' shapes. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > She looks good up to the waterline and aft, but get rid of that excessive flare in the foredeck, The concave shape between the waterline and the foredeck edge just wouldn't happen, Pull the foredeck in closer to the profile of the waterline. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/Unusual_origami_hullform.JPG > > > | 23779|23755|2010-08-08 14:19:03|h|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|I imagine the tolerances expand along with the size of the build as well, so the exactness required for a 36 foot boat will be many times larger, like probably more within a couple of inches. I realized this too when I made a paper model, but that's what hot glue is for isn't it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Just checked it again - it is possible to make pattern for such shape. I would not waste my time on that though. It has very short seam line and will require very precise cutting. You will hardly recognize boat in such pattern. It is just unpractical. > > What I noticed so far, longer seams in the pattern give more precise hull shape. Shorter ones needs more precise cutting and affect final hull's shape more. I already have hard time to make "perfect pattern" and to keep hydros I want for 3D hull I like. Even slight changes to lines plan affect whole "origami pattern" (changes pattern shape slightly). > > This convince me that if you want to build 2 boats AND: > > - have the same precise pattern cutout > - follow the same procedure to put hull together > - do final hull adjustments according lines plan recommendations > > You will have EXACTLY the same hulls' shapes. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > She looks good up to the waterline and aft, but get rid of that excessive flare in the foredeck, The concave shape between the waterline and the foredeck edge just wouldn't happen, Pull the foredeck in closer to the profile of the waterline. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/Unusual_origami_hullform.JPG > > > > > > | 23780|23780|2010-08-08 15:50:55|akenai|Bilge tank|What is the best way to measure the cut line for the bilge tank top. Aaron| 23781|23780|2010-08-08 20:52:35|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Bilge tank|You know I have one of those little self leveling lasers that project a horizontal or vertical plane of light. I recently use it on a repair of my fiberglass boat. I needed to glass in supports for the floor boards, and wanted the floor straight. I set the laser on the deck of the boat when it was pretty dark out, and leveled it side to side and fore and aft by adjust the stands. Then I moved it down below and projected a horizontal plane. I measured down from the laser plane to the hull and got the height of each point where I needed a support. I then glassed them in, checking against the laser plane for straight and level. In your case if you set it up to project the plane at exactly the tank top level you'll have an accurate line around the hull to measure across. If you turn on the vertical plane and align it with the centerline of the hull you can also check that the hull is exactly symmetrical, and compensate if it isn't. If you make a pencil mark on the hull you can turn the laser around to reach everything and just line it up with the pencil mark for height. Setting the laser up all the way at the stern, or bow and projecting the entire length of the boat is great for fitting out bulkheads and cabinet work. It gives you a perfect horizontal plane, and a perfect vertical plane to measure from. Using a board with a level you can measure points on the hull with accuracy. My Dewalt cost $100. My wife's Black & Decker cost about $30, we don't share well! Both work well, mine is brighter and goes farther, with a little more accuracy. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "akenai" To: Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 3:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Bilge tank > > What is the best way to measure the cut line for the bilge tank top. > > Aaron > > | 23782|23755|2010-08-08 23:55:16|wild_explorer|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|You are right. Cutting precision for a model need to be higher - proportional to a scale of the model. But only if you want to make precise model... It will be too hard to do for a small model made with modeling knife or scissors. May be it is not so critical for the steel hull. 40 ft 3D hull with "origami style" pattern (full size) had error about 10mm over 2.5m in one place. I can see small imperfection on cardboard model (about 1.5 ft) in that area under some light's angle. It is harder to make perfect "origami" pattern - it gives larger errors. Brent's pattern is VERY practical from technological point of view. It has 2 straight lines from which all other measurements are done. I was able to make only one side close to a straight line for my 3D model. I might abandon it in a trade-off for a little bit different hull line. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "h" wrote: > > > I imagine the tolerances expand along with the size of the build as well, so the exactness required for a 36 foot boat will be many times larger, like probably more within a couple of inches. I realized this too when I made a paper model, but that's what hot glue is for isn't it. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Just checked it again - it is possible to make pattern for such shape. I would not waste my time on that though. It has very short seam line and will require very precise cutting. You will hardly recognize boat in such pattern. It is just unpractical. > > > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/Unusual_origami_hullform.JPG > > > > | 23783|23780|2010-08-09 05:50:52|kimdxx|Re: Bilge tank|Hi Aaron ... Use a "tick-stick"! With a tick-stick, it's possible to very easily and very quickly make an extremely accurate pattern to cut even the most intricate and complicated shapes. It's an invaluable idea when fitting out a boat, and one I've used countless times. When making a pattern for your bilge tank top, your "tick board" would be horizontal. Google "tick stick" for the details. It's sometimes called the "joggle stick" method. For example: http://www.diy-wood-boat.com/Bulkhead.html Hope this helps! Cheers ... Kim. ________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai" wrote: > > What is the best way to measure the cut line for the bilge tank top. > > Aaron ________________________________ | 23784|23780|2010-08-09 10:04:59|Aaron Williams|Re: Bilge tank|Kim Simple enough, I watched the bilge tank part in the video and got the measurements for each end and it looks like the contour was from mid point edge to each end so with the tick stick and a long batten I should be able to adjust the hight of the tank top as needed.    Thanks Aaron --- On Mon, 8/9/10, kimdxx wrote: From: kimdxx Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bilge tank To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, August 9, 2010, 1:50 AM   Hi Aaron ... Use a "tick-stick"! With a tick-stick, it's possible to very easily and very quickly make an extremely accurate pattern to cut even the most intricate and complicated shapes. It's an invaluable idea when fitting out a boat, and one I've used countless times. When making a pattern for your bilge tank top, your "tick board" would be horizontal. Google "tick stick" for the details. It's sometimes called the "joggle stick" method. For example: http://www.diy-wood-boat.com/Bulkhead.html Hope this helps! Cheers ... Kim. ________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai" wrote: > > What is the best way to measure the cut line for the bilge tank top. > > Aaron ________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23787|23755|2010-08-11 23:09:58|brentswain38|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|For a 40 footer, you are talking about roughly 1500 lbs per inch immersion , in a boat on which it's anyone's guess how much junk any owner is going to put aboard. So precision accuracy would be deluding ones self on this issue. Getting a fair line is far more important than a few millimeters here or there. A straight sheer edge on the plate can me modified by pushing out the beam, or bringing it in a bit here and there, to get a good looking sheer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > You are right. Cutting precision for a model need to be higher - proportional to a scale of the model. But only if you want to make precise model... It will be too hard to do for a small model made with modeling knife or scissors. > > May be it is not so critical for the steel hull. 40 ft 3D hull with "origami style" pattern (full size) had error about 10mm over 2.5m in one place. I can see small imperfection on cardboard model (about 1.5 ft) in that area under some light's angle. It is harder to make perfect "origami" pattern - it gives larger errors. > > Brent's pattern is VERY practical from technological point of view. It has 2 straight lines from which all other measurements are done. I was able to make only one side close to a straight line for my 3D model. I might abandon it in a trade-off for a little bit different hull line. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "h" wrote: > > > > > > I imagine the tolerances expand along with the size of the build as well, so the exactness required for a 36 foot boat will be many times larger, like probably more within a couple of inches. I realized this too when I made a paper model, but that's what hot glue is for isn't it. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > Just checked it again - it is possible to make pattern for such shape. I would not waste my time on that though. It has very short seam line and will require very precise cutting. You will hardly recognize boat in such pattern. It is just unpractical. > > > > > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/Unusual_origami_hullform.JPG > > > > > > | 23788|23755|2010-08-12 20:15:56|wild_explorer|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|Brent, in my case it is hard to get straight line for the pattern. I need to keep LWL/BWL/Draugh/Freeboard ratio for my 3D model to get headroom and speed characteristics I want, avoid local hull stress and have reasonable pattern. Speed prediction for this model is about 14 knots in designed draft's range (instead of about 10 kn for pure displacement hull). I would like to keep this extra 4 knots of possible speed. And "developability" of the pattern is limited by 3D setup of the hull too. So, I am limited to play with what I have "on hands". I was unable to fit the pattern for my 3D 40 footer model to 40ft plate without scaling it down to about 38ft or changing the look of the bow. I do not really want to scale it down and lower displacement - it will affect stability (lower displ/ballast ratio) and loading capacity. I will send you lines-plan of my project for inspection. I suspect, I got my 3D model just slightly different to what you have (more headroom and beam). It is just very hard to make something else, following the rules needed to make "origami" pattern. It is possible to get some shape variations using "hybrid" or "pseudo origami" pattern. Overloading a boat by owner, is slightly different problem. It is just need to give owner guideline which NEVER should be exceeded. For my 3D model, I estimate load capacity: empty ~ 8t, cruising ~11t, max ~14t. So, owner has only about 3t limit for "junk". Better to stay in given draft range. To avoid it, total weight for everything (boat + furniture, hardware, crew, fuel, water, etc) should be less than 11t. It is possible to load more, but it will affect hull performance - power needed to push hull jumps from 40kW to 80kW, speed drops 3 knots at the same time. Painted "loading waterline" on the hull will help to avoid such overloading. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > For a 40 footer, you are talking about roughly 1500 lbs per inch immersion , in a boat on which it's anyone's guess how much junk any owner is going to put aboard. So precision accuracy would be deluding ones self on this issue. Getting a fair line is far more important than a few millimeters here or there. > A straight sheer edge on the plate can me modified by pushing out the beam, or bringing it in a bit here and there, to get a good looking sheer. > | 23790|23755|2010-08-14 20:52:35|brentswain38|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|Camber in an aft raked transom gives me 40 ft out of a 40 ft plate. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, in my case it is hard to get straight line for the pattern. I need to keep LWL/BWL/Draugh/Freeboard ratio for my 3D model to get headroom and speed characteristics I want, avoid local hull stress and have reasonable pattern. Speed prediction for this model is about 14 knots in designed draft's range (instead of about 10 kn for pure displacement hull). I would like to keep this extra 4 knots of possible speed. And "developability" of the pattern is limited by 3D setup of the hull too. So, I am limited to play with what I have "on hands". > > I was unable to fit the pattern for my 3D 40 footer model to 40ft plate without scaling it down to about 38ft or changing the look of the bow. I do not really want to scale it down and lower displacement - it will affect stability (lower displ/ballast ratio) and loading capacity. I will send you lines-plan of my project for inspection. I suspect, I got my 3D model just slightly different to what you have (more headroom and beam). It is just very hard to make something else, following the rules needed to make "origami" pattern. It is possible to get some shape variations using "hybrid" or "pseudo origami" pattern. > > Overloading a boat by owner, is slightly different problem. It is just need to give owner guideline which NEVER should be exceeded. For my 3D model, I estimate load capacity: empty ~ 8t, cruising ~11t, max ~14t. So, owner has only about 3t limit for "junk". Better to stay in given draft range. To avoid it, total weight for everything (boat + furniture, hardware, crew, fuel, water, etc) should be less than 11t. It is possible to load more, but it will affect hull performance - power needed to push hull jumps from 40kW to 80kW, speed drops 3 knots at the same time. Painted "loading waterline" on the hull will help to avoid such overloading. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > For a 40 footer, you are talking about roughly 1500 lbs per inch immersion , in a boat on which it's anyone's guess how much junk any owner is going to put aboard. So precision accuracy would be deluding ones self on this issue. Getting a fair line is far more important than a few millimeters here or there. > > A straight sheer edge on the plate can me modified by pushing out the beam, or bringing it in a bit here and there, to get a good looking sheer. > > > | 23791|23755|2010-08-15 14:49:17|wild_explorer|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|Your transom might help to maintain designed speed when boat trims aft (negative trim)compare to straight transom. Same situation with "long" bow vs short for positive trim. I scaled down model v9 (one of lines-plan I send to you). It does not work well. I am losing speed characteristics and had to adjust lines plan. Ended up with model similar to v11 with less beam. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Camber in an aft raked transom gives me 40 ft out of a 40 ft plate. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > I was unable to fit the pattern for my 3D 40 footer model to 40ft plate without scaling it down to about 38ft or changing the look of the bow. I do not really want to scale it down and lower displacement - it will affect stability (lower displ/ballast ratio) and loading capacity. I will send you lines-plan of my project for inspection. I suspect, I got my 3D model just slightly different to what you have (more headroom and beam). It is just very hard to make something else, following the rules needed to make "origami" pattern. It is possible to get some shape variations using "hybrid" or "pseudo origami" pattern. > > | 23792|23755|2010-08-16 16:49:07|brentswain38|Re: Origamiboat modeling (3D, pattern, model)|The sharp bottom corners of a reverse transom can be a real maintenace headache when it comes to trying to keep paint on them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Your transom might help to maintain designed speed when boat trims aft (negative trim)compare to straight transom. Same situation with "long" bow vs short for positive trim. I scaled down model v9 (one of lines-plan I send to you). It does not work well. I am losing speed characteristics and had to adjust lines plan. Ended up with model similar to v11 with less beam. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Camber in an aft raked transom gives me 40 ft out of a 40 ft plate. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > I was unable to fit the pattern for my 3D 40 footer model to 40ft plate without scaling it down to about 38ft or changing the look of the bow. I do not really want to scale it down and lower displacement - it will affect stability (lower displ/ballast ratio) and loading capacity. I will send you lines-plan of my project for inspection. I suspect, I got my 3D model just slightly different to what you have (more headroom and beam). It is just very hard to make something else, following the rules needed to make "origami" pattern. It is possible to get some shape variations using "hybrid" or "pseudo origami" pattern. > > > > | 23793|23793|2010-08-17 14:01:56|conceptconversion|Internet reception|Have any of you experienced problems receiving your internet while down below in your steel boats? If so how did you get around it? My boat doesn't have a pilot house and I am finding that even with my cel phone I have to move to the hatch for better reception. Any comments appreciated. Jim Douglas North Vancouver| 23794|23793|2010-08-17 14:37:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Internet reception|On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 05:57:12PM -0000, conceptconversion wrote: > Have any of you experienced problems receiving your internet while > down below in your steel boats? If so how did you get around it? I'm in my main salon right now, using a Verizon broadband connection; it works pretty well, and there doesn't seem to be any difference between using it inside vs. outside. > My boat doesn't have a pilot house and I am finding that even with my > cel phone I have to move to the hatch for better reception. It is true that borderline-poor reception will be made worse by being surrounded by grounded steel; however, I don't see that as a significant factor - and I've been living on a steel boat for the past 12 years or so. In general, whenever you have to cover your other ear and yell "HELLO? HELLO???" into the phone, it's going to suck wherever you are. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23795|23793|2010-08-17 15:13:44|Matt Malone|Re: Internet reception|With everything there is an upside and a downside. The steel hull acts as a Faraday cage -- keeping out electro-magnetic radio waves. Radio waves can leak in and out through the ports and the hatch of course. WiFi, GPS, cell phones, VHF radios (handhelds) etc will not work well at all inside the hull without an external antenna. The plus side of this is, disconnect the external wiring for radios and solar panels (and put the loose cable end in an 3-4 oz tomato paste can spot-welded to the hull) and the electronics in your boat are thousands of times safer from lightning than in a wood or fibreglass boat. That protects against direct strikes, the current from the lightning should run down the outside of the boat to the water. There is another effect called inductive coupling, where a nearby lightning strike induces a local pulse in the magnetic field, which should not be confused with the radio waves also produced by a lightning bolt. This pulse in the magnetic field will induce voltage and current spikes in long, exposed wires in the vicinity (dozens of feet) of where the lightning is conducted. It was this and not a direct lightning strike that was the cause of death of the old green-screen serial terminals and modems that were connected to computers by long wires. Coax and twisted pair wiring is less susceptible, but the equipment at the ends can still be damaged by nearby lightning even without a direct strike. The Faraday and magnetic cage of the boat's steel hull bends the magnetic field to the hull, greatly reducing the field fluctuations inside. Also, wireless instrumentation systems within the hull will tend to work better and people outside will not experience interference with theirs if they are rafted up beside you and they have a similar wireless system. So, an external antenna is the answer. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: conceptconversion@... Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:57:12 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Internet reception Have any of you experienced problems receiving your internet while down below in your steel boats? If so how did you get around it? My boat doesn't have a pilot house and I am finding that even with my cel phone I have to move to the hatch for better reception. Any comments appreciated. Jim Douglas North Vancouver [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23796|23793|2010-08-17 16:46:16|Ben Okopnik|Re: Internet reception|On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 02:58:27PM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > With everything there is an upside and a downside. The steel hull > acts as a Faraday cage -- keeping out electro-magnetic radio waves. Well, let's qualify that a bit. A lot of people have heard of Faraday cages, and tend to bring them up in situations like these as a possible solution (e.g., I've seen people wrap their refrigerator compressors in copper netting to stop them from interfering with their SSB. Didn't do anything useful, of course.) I've actually participated in building one - when I was working with millimeter-wave systems at Hughes Aircraft, we were dealing with RF signals small enough that we needed to block out external radio noise. The fact is that unless it's nearly perfect - that is, a complete enclosure with essentially no conduction gaps, and no more than minor impedance variations from any one point of enclosure to another to prevent ground loops - it will have either no, or only a minor effect. In the end, it cost us pretty close to $300k to enclose a 6'x10' section of the assembly lab, and took about three months (the uprights and the drywall took less than a day; the rest of the time went for the endless testing, scanning, redesign, and retesting.) In short, it's not something that can just be wrapped around like duct tape and that would be it - it just doesn't work like that. I don't have a VSWR meter or a tuned RF source at hand, but I'd be willing to bet that there isn't any more than 3dB of loss between the signal on the deck of my boat when compared to the inside when it's all buttoned up. > Radio waves can leak in and out through the ports and the hatch of > course. WiFi, GPS, cell phones, VHF radios (handhelds) etc will not > work well at all inside the hull without an external antenna. Again, I use my phone and my Verizon broadband every day, usually in the main salon. I also occasionally step out into the cockpit or on deck while using the phone, and there's no perceptible difference. More tellingly, when I was anchored in Oriental, NC last winter, where the phone reception is just awful, the signal was *barely* enough to work from the boat - and it made no difference whether I was below or not. Trust me, I tried the cell phone dance ("can you hear me now? How about now?") all around the boat, on deck and below, and it made no difference at all. > The > plus side of this is, disconnect the external wiring for radios and > solar panels (and put the loose cable end in an 3-4 oz tomato paste > can spot-welded to the hull) and the electronics in your boat are > thousands of times safer from lightning than in a wood or fibreglass > boat. That protects against direct strikes, the current from the > lightning should run down the outside of the boat to the water. > > There is another effect called inductive coupling, where a nearby > lightning strike induces a local pulse in the magnetic field, which > should not be confused with the radio waves also produced by a > lightning bolt. This pulse in the magnetic field will induce voltage > and current spikes in long, exposed wires in the vicinity (dozens of > feet) of where the lightning is conducted. It was this and not a > direct lightning strike that was the cause of death of the old > green-screen serial terminals and modems that were connected to > computers by long wires. Coax and twisted pair wiring is less > susceptible, but the equipment at the ends can still be damaged by > nearby lightning even without a direct strike. The Faraday and > magnetic cage of the boat's steel hull bends the magnetic field to the > hull, greatly reducing the field fluctuations inside. From an inductive coupling perspective, the important factors are the length of the two inductors involved, the number of turns in each coil, and the distance between them (see Maxwell's equation.) Given that the phone antenna is, at maximum, a few inches long and straight and that the distance between it and the hull is relatively very large, I very much doubt that it's a factor. I think that the greatest influence here is simply the line of sight obstruction. Sure, steel is a bit more dense than, say, fiberglass, but it won't make _that_ much of a difference. Standing behind a wall or inside a boat would have about the same effect. > So, an external antenna is the answer. If there's no difference between going outside and staying inside, an external antenna won't make any difference either. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23797|23793|2010-08-17 17:19:35|Matt Malone|Re: Internet reception|I wish I could get Verizon then, because my cell does not work at all in my basement, nor in my steel shipping container (even with one door open) and I get 5 bars outside. Ben is right, a good Faraday cage is hard to do. But my shipping container cost $2,900, delivered, and it is 8'x40' and nothing works in it, WiFi, cell, nothing. A good-enough Faraday cage to sufficiently scramble signals with reduced amplitude and multiple internal reflections is not that hard. If your stuff works, then great, if it does not, or does not work well, or does not work reliably, or only works when your boat pivots on its mooring to point in a particular direction (so the signals enter cleanly through the big salon window), I am not surprised. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:46:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Internet reception On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 02:58:27PM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > With everything there is an upside and a downside. The steel hull > acts as a Faraday cage -- keeping out electro-magnetic radio waves. Well, let's qualify that a bit. A lot of people have heard of Faraday cages, and tend to bring them up in situations like these as a possible solution (e.g., I've seen people wrap their refrigerator compressors in copper netting to stop them from interfering with their SSB. Didn't do anything useful, of course.) I've actually participated in building one - when I was working with millimeter-wave systems at Hughes Aircraft, we were dealing with RF signals small enough that we needed to block out external radio noise. The fact is that unless it's nearly perfect - that is, a complete enclosure with essentially no conduction gaps, and no more than minor impedance variations from any one point of enclosure to another to prevent ground loops - it will have either no, or only a minor effect. In the end, it cost us pretty close to $300k to enclose a 6'x10' section of the assembly lab, and took about three months (the uprights and the drywall took less than a day; the rest of the time went for the endless testing, scanning, redesign, and retesting.) In short, it's not something that can just be wrapped around like duct tape and that would be it - it just doesn't work like that. I don't have a VSWR meter or a tuned RF source at hand, but I'd be willing to bet that there isn't any more than 3dB of loss between the signal on the deck of my boat when compared to the inside when it's all buttoned up. > Radio waves can leak in and out through the ports and the hatch of > course. WiFi, GPS, cell phones, VHF radios (handhelds) etc will not > work well at all inside the hull without an external antenna. Again, I use my phone and my Verizon broadband every day, usually in the main salon. I also occasionally step out into the cockpit or on deck while using the phone, and there's no perceptible difference. More tellingly, when I was anchored in Oriental, NC last winter, where the phone reception is just awful, the signal was *barely* enough to work from the boat - and it made no difference whether I was below or not. Trust me, I tried the cell phone dance ("can you hear me now? How about now?") all around the boat, on deck and below, and it made no difference at all. > The > plus side of this is, disconnect the external wiring for radios and > solar panels (and put the loose cable end in an 3-4 oz tomato paste > can spot-welded to the hull) and the electronics in your boat are > thousands of times safer from lightning than in a wood or fibreglass > boat. That protects against direct strikes, the current from the > lightning should run down the outside of the boat to the water. > > There is another effect called inductive coupling, where a nearby > lightning strike induces a local pulse in the magnetic field, which > should not be confused with the radio waves also produced by a > lightning bolt. This pulse in the magnetic field will induce voltage > and current spikes in long, exposed wires in the vicinity (dozens of > feet) of where the lightning is conducted. It was this and not a > direct lightning strike that was the cause of death of the old > green-screen serial terminals and modems that were connected to > computers by long wires. Coax and twisted pair wiring is less > susceptible, but the equipment at the ends can still be damaged by > nearby lightning even without a direct strike. The Faraday and > magnetic cage of the boat's steel hull bends the magnetic field to the > hull, greatly reducing the field fluctuations inside. From an inductive coupling perspective, the important factors are the length of the two inductors involved, the number of turns in each coil, and the distance between them (see Maxwell's equation.) Given that the phone antenna is, at maximum, a few inches long and straight and that the distance between it and the hull is relatively very large, I very much doubt that it's a factor. I think that the greatest influence here is simply the line of sight obstruction. Sure, steel is a bit more dense than, say, fiberglass, but it won't make _that_ much of a difference. Standing behind a wall or inside a boat would have about the same effect. > So, an external antenna is the answer. If there's no difference between going outside and staying inside, an external antenna won't make any difference either. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23798|23793|2010-08-17 17:33:34|David Frantz|Re: Internet reception|There are many factors involved so no one off the cuff answer will detail your problem. Things to consider: 1. Distance from the cell tower. This is huge and if you are on the fringe you will have problems even in a plasyic boat. 2. The frequency the cell tower is operating on has a big impact on penetration of the signal. 3. Cell phone quality. There is no way to get around the fact that some cell phones have better RF subsystems than others. 4. Coatal geography can create dead zones where the connection to a tower is hard to establish. As to external cell antennas I've never looked for such. I have on occasion looked for external WiFi antennas. Here I'd suggest looking on the net for suppliers and more so in the various boating forums. I do remember seeing very positive comments about a certain external WiFi antenna used in marinas. Just don't ask where as i don't remember. It is important to understand that your issues are unique to whever you are anchored so asking about local solutions can be helpful. That is if you can fikter out the snake oil suggestions. Lastly you can always make up your own WiFi antenna. There are seceral sites on the internet to DIY antennas. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 17, 2010, at 1:57 PM, conceptconversion wrote: > Have any of you experienced problems receiving your internet while down below in your steel boats? If so how did you get around it? > > My boat doesn't have a pilot house and I am finding that even with my cel phone I have to move to the hatch for better reception. > > Any comments appreciated. > > Jim Douglas > North Vancouver > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23799|23793|2010-08-17 21:40:24|David Frantz|Re: Internet reception|Ben is right if you are trying to build a validated Faraday Cage. Out in the wild though it can be very surprising what happens to an RF signal. As many have experienced simply turning a corner can kill a connection or driving through an underpass. A steel boat can effectively seal out RF communication just like a shipping container. The thing is it takes very little in the way of openings to leak signal. The problem with these sorts of issues is the large number of variables that make it difficult to say for certain what is killing the connection. Could be a fringe area for that provider, could be the boat attenuating the signal to much, or any number of factors. For example it appears that AT&T was forced to change to a much lower cell frequency in some of its markets. This due to quality of service issues. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 17, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > I wish I could get Verizon then, because my cell does not work at all in my basement, nor in my steel shipping container (even with one door open) and I get 5 bars outside. > > Ben is right, a good Faraday cage is hard to do. But my shipping container cost $2,900, delivered, and it is 8'x40' and nothing works in it, WiFi, cell, nothing. A good-enough Faraday cage to sufficiently scramble signals with reduced amplitude and multiple internal reflections is not that hard. If your stuff works, then great, if it does not, or does not work well, or does not work reliably, or only works when your boat pivots on its mooring to point in a particular direction (so the signals enter cleanly through the big salon window), I am not surprised. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ben@... > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:46:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Internet reception > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 02:58:27PM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > >> > >> With everything there is an upside and a downside. The steel hull > >> acts as a Faraday cage -- keeping out electro-magnetic radio waves. > > > > Well, let's qualify that a bit. A lot of people have heard of Faraday > > cages, and tend to bring them up in situations like these as a possible > > solution (e.g., I've seen people wrap their refrigerator compressors in > > copper netting to stop them from interfering with their SSB. Didn't do > > anything useful, of course.) I've actually participated in building one > > - when I was working with millimeter-wave systems at Hughes Aircraft, we > > were dealing with RF signals small enough that we needed to block out > > external radio noise. The fact is that unless it's nearly perfect - > > that is, a complete enclosure with essentially no conduction gaps, and > > no more than minor impedance variations from any one point of enclosure > > to another to prevent ground loops - it will have either no, or only a > > minor effect. In the end, it cost us pretty close to $300k to enclose a > > 6'x10' section of the assembly lab, and took about three months (the > > uprights and the drywall took less than a day; the rest of the time went > > for the endless testing, scanning, redesign, and retesting.) > > > > In short, it's not something that can just be wrapped around like duct > > tape and that would be it - it just doesn't work like that. I don't have > > a VSWR meter or a tuned RF source at hand, but I'd be willing to bet > > that there isn't any more than 3dB of loss between the signal on the > > deck of my boat when compared to the inside when it's all buttoned up. > > > >> Radio waves can leak in and out through the ports and the hatch of > >> course. WiFi, GPS, cell phones, VHF radios (handhelds) etc will not > >> work well at all inside the hull without an external antenna. > > > > Again, I use my phone and my Verizon broadband every day, usually in the > > main salon. I also occasionally step out into the cockpit or on deck > > while using the phone, and there's no perceptible difference. > > > > More tellingly, when I was anchored in Oriental, NC last winter, where > > the phone reception is just awful, the signal was *barely* enough to > > work from the boat - and it made no difference whether I was below or > > not. Trust me, I tried the cell phone dance ("can you hear me now? How > > about now?") all around the boat, on deck and below, and it made no > > difference at all. > > > >> The > >> plus side of this is, disconnect the external wiring for radios and > >> solar panels (and put the loose cable end in an 3-4 oz tomato paste > >> can spot-welded to the hull) and the electronics in your boat are > >> thousands of times safer from lightning than in a wood or fibreglass > >> boat. That protects against direct strikes, the current from the > >> lightning should run down the outside of the boat to the water. > >> > >> There is another effect called inductive coupling, where a nearby > >> lightning strike induces a local pulse in the magnetic field, which > >> should not be confused with the radio waves also produced by a > >> lightning bolt. This pulse in the magnetic field will induce voltage > >> and current spikes in long, exposed wires in the vicinity (dozens of > >> feet) of where the lightning is conducted. It was this and not a > >> direct lightning strike that was the cause of death of the old > >> green-screen serial terminals and modems that were connected to > >> computers by long wires. Coax and twisted pair wiring is less > >> susceptible, but the equipment at the ends can still be damaged by > >> nearby lightning even without a direct strike. The Faraday and > >> magnetic cage of the boat's steel hull bends the magnetic field to the > >> hull, greatly reducing the field fluctuations inside. > > > > From an inductive coupling perspective, the important factors are the > > length of the two inductors involved, the number of turns in each coil, > > and the distance between them (see Maxwell's equation.) Given that the > > phone antenna is, at maximum, a few inches long and straight and that > > the distance between it and the hull is relatively very large, I very > > much doubt that it's a factor. > > > > I think that the greatest influence here is simply the line of sight > > obstruction. Sure, steel is a bit more dense than, say, fiberglass, but > > it won't make _that_ much of a difference. Standing behind a wall or > > inside a boat would have about the same effect. > > > >> So, an external antenna is the answer. > > > > If there's no difference between going outside and staying inside, an > > external antenna won't make any difference either. > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23800|23793|2010-08-18 00:13:37|wild_explorer|Re: Internet reception|Best way is to have cell phone / wi-fi adapter with connector for external antenna. You can make rotating directional wave-guide type antenna for both from round profile metal pipe (may need different antennas for wi-fi and cell phone depending on the frequency used for cell phone). Lot of information on this subject in wardriving groups. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "conceptconversion" wrote: > > Have any of you experienced problems receiving your internet while down below in your steel boats? If so how did you get around it? > | 23801|23793|2010-08-18 09:55:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Internet reception|On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 03:58:13AM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Best way is to have cell phone / wi-fi adapter with connector for > external antenna. You can make rotating directional wave-guide type > antenna for both from round profile metal pipe (may need different > antennas for wi-fi and cell phone depending on the frequency used for > cell phone). Lot of information on this subject in wardriving groups. I don't think that any of those folks are doing it on a boat that's pivoting at anchor. Directional antennas are useless for this application. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23802|23802|2010-08-18 10:12:06|SHANE ROTHWELL|Dove II for sale|Hey Guys, Dove II is for sale. Built by Winston Bushnell wasn't she? Anyhoo, in the bible yesterday "36' steel sloop, Dove II, blue water cruiser, Brent Swain hull, steel railings, close to new sails, great boat. $40,000 OBO 250-752-5120.... in Qualicum Breaks my heart. Almost worth chucking the lot and..... Maybe a good roaring fight with the wife will do it..... Cheers, Shane| 23803|23793|2010-08-18 10:34:28|jason ball|Re: Internet reception|well, boats at anchor dont spin round constantly all night and day, and this type of antenna certainlywas alright when used on boats for radio direction finding for many years. its true an omni directional antenna might well be more useful, but yagi type directional antennas are more powerful and certainly not useless, they may have possibilities. low power for instance --- On Wed, 18/8/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Internet reception To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 18 August, 2010, 14:52   On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 03:58:13AM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Best way is to have cell phone / wi-fi adapter with connector for > external antenna. You can make rotating directional wave-guide type > antenna for both from round profile metal pipe (may need different > antennas for wi-fi and cell phone depending on the frequency used for > cell phone). Lot of information on this subject in wardriving groups. I don't think that any of those folks are doing it on a boat that's pivoting at anchor. Directional antennas are useless for this application. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23804|23804|2010-08-18 11:46:09|hannes_vavra|canoe - ask fpr help|somewhere in origami-yahoogroups I found scribbles of an origami canoe does somebody know the link regards from austria hanne| 23805|23793|2010-08-18 11:54:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Internet reception|On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 02:15:47PM +0000, jason ball wrote: > well, boats at anchor dont spin round constantly all night and day, You clearly don't live on a boat. I do. Your ideas are theoretical; mine are based on almost 20 years of experience of living aboard. Depending on where they are, boats at anchor may _constantly_ sheer and slue around due to current; mooring at the 79th Street Boat Basin in New York, for example, would teach you that in a heartbeat. Even in places where such strong currents don't exist, the tidal changes would have you hopping on deck to readjust that directional antenna a number of times each day. For some silly reason, people don't seem eager to do that. I wonder why? -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23806|23793|2010-08-18 13:38:19|wild_explorer|Re: Internet reception|Ben, original post did not specify "on the constant move" condition of the boat. If boat at the dock, directional antennas with reasonable (not best) directivity will work fine. At anchor, antennas with less directivity (or 360 deg) can be used. Anyway, outside antennas will solve reception problems inside steel hull. I had no wifi reception at all on a boat at the dock from marina tower with 1w adapter and slotted waveguide antenna. I was at location with lowest signal (even behind directivity diagram). Bi-quad antenna and 0.5w external wifi adapter with antenna connector solve my problem and gave me good signal in 300m range I was need.| 23807|23793|2010-08-18 13:55:17|h|Re: Internet reception|Well I've found some phones just seem to fail in either the transmit or the receive function, often one side of a conversation will be fine but the other won't be going through. My phone is kinda weird, it'll show me full signal while anywhere in the boat, and I can answer it and use it for a while inside the boat but unless I move outside within a few minutes it'll disconnect, due to no signal, which will slowly creep down as the phone heats up, if I hangout in the pilot house it'll last an extra ten minutes or so but if I'm planning on having a longish conversation I had better take a walk outside cause the phone won't cut out then. I can only imagine that the phone as it heats up loses potency in either the transmit or receive connection and because I'm surrounded by a (only 1/8") steel wall and some foam the signal is weak enough that it loses connection. Or the phone somehow knows it's having trouble getting through and turns up the broadcasting all the way up, which eventually kills it, cause it seems to get hotter when I use it inside the boat than outside, but maybe it's just the cool air outside. Either way probably still no good for brain cells.| 23808|23793|2010-08-18 14:06:32|jason ball|Re: Internet reception|actually ben i do live aboard and have also travelled extensively, i have also lived on anchor and on moorings a lot during that time, yes i beleive that they have very limited use onboard byt they are not "useless". --- On Wed, 18/8/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Internet reception To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 18 August, 2010, 16:54   On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 02:15:47PM +0000, jason ball wrote: > well, boats at anchor dont spin round constantly all night and day, You clearly don't live on a boat. I do. Your ideas are theoretical; mine are based on almost 20 years of experience of living aboard. Depending on where they are, boats at anchor may _constantly_ sheer and slue around due to current; mooring at the 79th Street Boat Basin in New York, for example, would teach you that in a heartbeat. Even in places where such strong currents don't exist, the tidal changes would have you hopping on deck to readjust that directional antenna a number of times each day. For some silly reason, people don't seem eager to do that. I wonder why? -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23809|23793|2010-08-18 14:29:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: Internet reception|On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 05:37:59PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Ben, original post did not specify "on the constant move" condition of > the boat. It didn't specify "tied to a dock and not moving", either. Nor "hauled out in a yard and not moving at all", or "anchored in Patagonia, 2000 miles away from the nearest cell tower". My assumption here was that we're talking about the average cruising boat, which don't spend a whole lot of time tied to docks. Frankly, I'm getting pretty tired of this; it's become a dick-length war for some people (not you specifically), and now I'm just seeing a "I'll make up some outlandish situation that'll let *me* be right" attitude. I've offered my experience, and at least one person wants to argue with it. [shrug] I'll respond this one last time, and let those who want to argue do it with themselves. > If boat at the dock, directional antennas with reasonable > (not best) directivity will work fine. At anchor, antennas with less > directivity (or 360 deg) can be used. Anyway, outside antennas will > solve reception problems inside steel hull. My point is that there are very few problems with reception inside the average steel hull. It is true that my GPS won't receive anything when I have it down below - but that's true on fiberglass boats as well, and I don't have any perceptible difference in phone or WiFi service inside vs. out. I've just brought down my 1W omnidirectional WiFi antenna (need to mount it on the main mast, haven't gotten around to it yet) and taken two snapshots, one with it sitting right beside me and one with it out on deck. Please note that some of the AP's signals are actually higher inside than out, for whatever reason - but in general, the values are only a few dBm apart. In addition, the order of the strongest APs also differs radically. http://okopnik.com/images/Bullet2_inside.png http://okopnik.com/images/Bullet2_outside.png -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23810|23793|2010-08-18 16:47:41|jason ball|Re: Internet reception|well thanks for that one, bit rude tho! --- On Wed, 18/8/10, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Internet reception To: "Origami Boat list" Date: Wednesday, 18 August, 2010, 19:29   On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 05:37:59PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Ben, original post did not specify "on the constant move" condition of > the boat. It didn't specify "tied to a dock and not moving", either. Nor "hauled out in a yard and not moving at all", or "anchored in Patagonia, 2000 miles away from the nearest cell tower". My assumption here was that we're talking about the average cruising boat, which don't spend a whole lot of time tied to docks. Frankly, I'm getting pretty tired of this; it's become a dick-length war for some people (not you specifically), and now I'm just seeing a "I'll make up some outlandish situation that'll let *me* be right" attitude. I've offered my experience, and at least one person wants to argue with it. [shrug] I'll respond this one last time, and let those who want to argue do it with themselves. > If boat at the dock, directional antennas with reasonable > (not best) directivity will work fine. At anchor, antennas with less > directivity (or 360 deg) can be used. Anyway, outside antennas will > solve reception problems inside steel hull. My point is that there are very few problems with reception inside the average steel hull. It is true that my GPS won't receive anything when I have it down below - but that's true on fiberglass boats as well, and I don't have any perceptible difference in phone or WiFi service inside vs. out. I've just brought down my 1W omnidirectional WiFi antenna (need to mount it on the main mast, haven't gotten around to it yet) and taken two snapshots, one with it sitting right beside me and one with it out on deck. Please note that some of the AP's signals are actually higher inside than out, for whatever reason - but in general, the values are only a few dBm apart. In addition, the order of the strongest APs also differs radically. http://okopnik.com/images/Bullet2_inside.png http://okopnik.com/images/Bullet2_outside.png -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23811|23793|2010-08-18 17:13:43|wild_explorer|Re: Internet reception|Yep, your approach to count for "worst case scenario" is more usable. It is better and more practical to have an antenna/device which works in MOST conditions rather than have several "which are better in some conditions". I was surprised that people report no big difference in signal strength inside metal hull. Why do you think is that (your short theory)? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > My assumption here was that > we're talking about the average cruising boat, which don't spend a whole > lot of time tied to docks. | 23812|23804|2010-08-18 17:15:04|Mark Hamill|Re: canoe - ask fpr help|I found a DIY aluminum canoe site online--the plans are $5.99 USD- www.ejunkie.com/shop/product/42060.php ----- Original Message ----- From: hannes_vavra To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:42 AM Subject: [origamiboats] canoe - ask fpr help somewhere in origami-yahoogroups I found scribbles of an origami canoe does somebody know the link regards from austria hanne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23813|23793|2010-08-20 15:44:38|wild_explorer|Re: Internet reception|I was thinking about explanation why there is no big difference in signal strength inside and outside the hull of metal boat. I do not want to start "radio-telecommunication" type of talk in this forum, that why I give my simplified version. So, people who know radio-telecommunication, be easy on me. If you see something incorrect, please correct me. But I do not want to be involved in "professional" discussion. Cell phones and wi-fi work in micro-wave band. This means, that metal cylinder with proper diameter will be the guide for such waves. Waves will reflect from walls of the guide and propagate to the opening. Coaxial cable will have more signal loss than wave guide. Example is Micro-wave oven (same frequency as Wi-Fi). It has high power transmitter inside (500-1000 w) and when door closed, there is very little emission from it (waves stay inside), but when door is open, all power will go trough that opening outside. That is one of the reasons why MW oven has safety switch on the door, which kills transmitter when door is open. Ok, back to the subject. 1.Most marinas have "high power" wi-fi adapter (about 1-5w). Some of them have directive antennas. Standard computer's wi-fi adapter usually has power about 0.125w and less. You may see very good signal on your computer (because of strong signal from marina) but your adapter's transmitter will not have enough power to deliver the signal and establish connection. This is most common problem. What counts here – how much power is delivered to marina receiver by your adapter. You can solve the problem by using more powerful adapter or antenna with more gain. 2.The hull is not really grounded through the water in this case, unless you have proper lighting grounding and radio-waves grounding. Paint is insulator and most of the hull may not be the ground for micro-waves. 3.Effect of the metal hull. The metal hull with openings (window, hatches) acts as wave guide. Waves enters openings in the hull, got reflected and stay inside. If the openings are facing marina directive antenna, it is possible to get strong signal even below the level of openings (because waves are reflected inside the metal hull). Same with the transmittion from your adapter - metal hull acts like directive antenna (with signal radiation through hull's openings) This is just my opinion on the "metal hull effect" for Wi-Fi and cell phone's signals.| 23814|23793|2010-08-20 17:41:00|Matt Malone|Re: Internet reception: More Complex than the Tides|Wild_Explorer -- absolutely. I wish radio waves were visible sometimes so that it were possible to see all the weird interactions, and see if things are changed a little bit how the whole pattern changes drastically. I would like to turn this back to something nautical and also informative in that it will give some insight into just how complex something can get with a little geometry. Tides are simple right, moon pulls the water on the moon side of the earth a lot, pulls the Earth a little, leaving the water on the opposite side of the Earth behind -- consequence, high tide on the near and far side. We all learned this in school, and we probably explained it to other people in the same way. We can all picture that oscillation, the simple progression of this pair of bumps around the world. Now we have all read tide tables at one time or another and if we have sat and thought about it, we have probably scratched our heads wondering why is it so complicated. Actually, it is far more complicated than most any of us imagined, and it required a different point of view to see the whole story. Here is a beautiful graphic that originates from the Topex/Poseidon satelite, a brilliant piece of science. (For further reading, please see also Kelvin Waves and Rossby Waves if you want a real brain bender. These waves that can take years to cross an ocean.) The graphic shows just how complex the swirls and oscillations of the tides are, because of the shape of the land. If anyone can provide a link to a much higher resolution image, I would be very interested. http://www.seafriends.org.nz/niue/topextide.jpg The first thing I see is, there is a lot of blue and green, very small tides ranging from zero to just over a foot in height, and only small pockets where the tides are more than 1 meter. There is no doubt, without land, if the Earth was one big sea, even if just in a wide belt around the equator, the tides would be a lot greater. Returning for a second to the radio waves getting into a metal hull, bigger tides would be the equivalent to higher amplitude waves, and probably better reception. Generally speaking, the land is getting in the way of the tides, like the hull of a boat does, but there are some very complex patterns possible, and like Wild Explorer said, even amplification is possible. We could talk about this all day, and all be right, because it is just sooooo complicated. I hope everyone enjoyed the graphic. Matt --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:44:31 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Internet reception I was thinking about explanation why there is no big difference in signal strength inside and outside the hull of metal boat. I do not want to start "radio-telecommunication" type of talk in this forum, that why I give my simplified version. So, people who know radio-telecommunication, be easy on me. If you see something incorrect, please correct me. But I do not want to be involved in "professional" discussion. Cell phones and wi-fi work in micro-wave band. This means, that metal cylinder with proper diameter will be the guide for such waves. Waves will reflect from walls of the guide and propagate to the opening. Coaxial cable will have more signal loss than wave guide. Example is Micro-wave oven (same frequency as Wi-Fi). It has high power transmitter inside (500-1000 w) and when door closed, there is very little emission from it (waves stay inside), but when door is open, all power will go trough that opening outside. That is one of the reasons why MW oven has safety switch on the door, which kills transmitter when door is open. Ok, back to the subject. 1.Most marinas have "high power" wi-fi adapter (about 1-5w). Some of them have directive antennas. Standard computer's wi-fi adapter usually has power about 0.125w and less. You may see very good signal on your computer (because of strong signal from marina) but your adapter's transmitter will not have enough power to deliver the signal and establish connection. This is most common problem. What counts here � how much power is delivered to marina receiver by your adapter. You can solve the problem by using more powerful adapter or antenna with more gain. 2.The hull is not really grounded through the water in this case, unless you have proper lighting grounding and radio-waves grounding. Paint is insulator and most of the hull may not be the ground for micro-waves. 3.Effect of the metal hull. The metal hull with openings (window, hatches) acts as wave guide. Waves enters openings in the hull, got reflected and stay inside. If the openings are facing marina directive antenna, it is possible to get strong signal even below the level of openings (because waves are reflected inside the metal hull). Same with the transmittion from your adapter - metal hull acts like directive antenna (with signal radiation through hull's openings) This is just my opinion on the "metal hull effect" for Wi-Fi and cell phone's signals. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23815|23793|2010-08-20 17:54:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: Internet reception: More Complex than the Tides|On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 05:40:54PM -0400, Matt Malone wrote: > > Here is a beautiful graphic that originates from the Topex/Poseidon > satelite, a brilliant piece of science. (For further reading, please > see also Kelvin Waves and Rossby Waves if you want a real brain > bender. These waves that can take years to cross an ocean.) The > graphic shows just how complex the swirls and oscillations of the > tides are, because of the shape of the land. If anyone can provide a > link to a much higher resolution image, I would be very interested. Here's a high-res (2099x1353) graphic of TOPEX data patched for greater accuracy by Oregon State University: http://www.esr.org/polar_tide_models/Model_TPXO62_load_plot_large.png More info on the above analysis, mathematical model, and scripts used to generate it: http://www.esr.org/polar_tide_models/Model_TPXO62_load.html Pretty cool stuff. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23816|23816|2010-08-21 12:39:04|LastParadise|Adapting designs to origami|Just looking into this origami and steel boat thing. Have 20 years of wood/epoxy building and fiberglass repair. I'm interested in building a Jay Benford Mercedes 35 double ender. Similar to a Westsail 32 just longer and quite a bit faster at least the C-Flex version I've seen. Anyway, he offers plans for a 2 chine steel design and was wondering how practical it was to build her with some type of origami or if anyone new of a similar design for origami. Cheers, Jeff| 23817|23816|2010-08-21 15:26:22|Aaron Williams|Re: Adapting designs to origami|Jeff do you have a internet link to the design? ________________________________ From: LastParadise To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 20, 2010 3:54:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Adapting designs to origami   Just looking into this origami and steel boat thing. Have 20 years of wood/epoxy building and fiberglass repair. I'm interested in building a Jay Benford Mercedes 35 double ender. Similar to a Westsail 32 just longer and quite a bit faster at least the C-Flex version I've seen. Anyway, he offers plans for a 2 chine steel design and was wondering how practical it was to build her with some type of origami or if anyone new of a similar design for origami. Cheers, Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23818|23816|2010-08-21 16:40:57|brentswain38|Re: Adapting designs to origami|It would be no problem. The easiest way is to find a finished hull and take full sized patterns off her. That could be easily done with door skins and a glue gun. A few big magnets to hold them in place would help a lot ,as would a lot of extra hands. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "LastParadise" wrote: > > Just looking into this origami and steel boat thing. Have 20 years of wood/epoxy building and fiberglass repair. > > I'm interested in building a Jay Benford Mercedes 35 double ender. Similar to a Westsail 32 just longer and quite a bit faster at least the C-Flex version I've seen. > > Anyway, he offers plans for a 2 chine steel design and was wondering how practical it was to build her with some type of origami or if anyone new of a similar design for origami. > > Cheers, > Jeff > | 23819|23793|2010-08-21 17:23:04|Gord Schnell|Re: Internet reception: More Complex than the Tides|Excellent graphical representation of wave/tide action. Thanks Gord On 20-Aug-10, at 2:40 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > Wild_Explorer -- absolutely. I wish radio waves were visible > sometimes so that it were possible to see all the weird > interactions, and see if things are changed a little bit how the > whole pattern changes drastically. > > I would like to turn this back to something nautical and also > informative in that it will give some insight into just how complex > something can get with a little geometry. Tides are simple right, > moon pulls the water on the moon side of the earth a lot, pulls the > Earth a little, leaving the water on the opposite side of the Earth > behind -- consequence, high tide on the near and far side. We all > learned this in school, and we probably explained it to other people > in the same way. We can all picture that oscillation, the simple > progression of this pair of bumps around the world. > > Now we have all read tide tables at one time or another and if we > have sat and thought about it, we have probably scratched our heads > wondering why is it so complicated. Actually, it is far more > complicated than most any of us imagined, and it required a > different point of view to see the whole story. Here is a beautiful > graphic that originates from the Topex/Poseidon satelite, a > brilliant piece of science. (For further reading, please see also > Kelvin Waves and Rossby Waves if you want a real brain bender. > These waves that can take years to cross an ocean.) The graphic > shows just how complex the swirls and oscillations of the tides are, > because of the shape of the land. If anyone can provide a link to > a much higher resolution image, I would be very interested. > > http://www.seafriends.org.nz/niue/topextide.jpg > > The first thing I see is, there is a lot of blue and green, very > small tides ranging from zero to just over a foot in height, and > only small pockets where the tides are more than 1 meter. There is > no doubt, without land, if the Earth was one big sea, even if just > in a wide belt around the equator, the tides would be a lot > greater. Returning for a second to the radio waves getting into a > metal hull, bigger tides would be the equivalent to higher amplitude > waves, and probably better reception. Generally speaking, the land > is getting in the way of the tides, like the hull of a boat does, > but there are some very complex patterns possible, and like Wild > Explorer said, even amplification is possible. > > We could talk about this all day, and all be right, because it is > just sooooo complicated. > > I hope everyone enjoyed the graphic. > > Matt > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:44:31 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Internet reception > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I > was thinking about explanation why there is no big difference in > signal > strength inside and outside the hull of metal boat. I do not want to > start "radio-telecommunication" type of talk in this forum, that why I > give my simplified version. So, people who know > radio-telecommunication, be easy on me. If you see something > incorrect, > please correct me. But I do not want to be involved in "professional" > discussion. > > > > Cell phones and wi-fi work in micro-wave band. This means, that metal > cylinder with proper diameter will be the guide for such waves. Waves > will reflect from walls of the guide and propagate to the opening. > Coaxial cable will have more signal loss than wave guide. > > > > Example is Micro-wave oven (same frequency as Wi-Fi). It has high > power > transmitter inside (500-1000 w) and when door closed, there is very > little emission from it (waves stay inside), but when door is open, > all > power will go trough that opening outside. That is one of the reasons > why MW oven has safety switch on the door, which kills transmitter > when > door is open. > > > > Ok, back to the subject. > > > > 1.Most marinas have "high power" wi-fi adapter (about 1-5w). Some of > them have directive antennas. Standard computer's wi-fi adapter > usually > has power about 0.125w and less. You may see very good signal on your > computer (because of strong signal from marina) but your adapter's > transmitter will not have enough power to deliver the signal and > establish connection. This is most common problem. What counts here – > how much power is delivered to marina receiver by your adapter. You > can > solve the problem by using more powerful adapter or antenna with more > gain. > > 2.The hull is not really grounded through the water in this case, > unless you have proper lighting grounding and radio-waves grounding. > Paint is insulator and most of the hull may not be the ground for > micro-waves. > > 3.Effect of the metal hull. The metal hull with openings (window, > hatches) acts as wave guide. Waves enters openings in the hull, got > reflected and stay inside. If the openings are facing marina directive > antenna, it is possible to get strong signal even below the level of > openings (because waves are reflected inside the metal hull). Same > with > the transmittion from your adapter - metal hull acts like directive > antenna (with signal radiation through hull's openings) > > > > This is just my opinion on the "metal hull effect" for Wi-Fi and > cell phone's signals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 23820|23793|2010-08-21 18:28:15|h|Re: Internet reception|Hmmm I wonder what frequency mu hull is tuned to. Interesting tide photo I never knew that about Panama, looks as though the pacific side has a tide like it does up here but only on the pacific side. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was thinking about explanation why there is no big difference in signal strength inside and outside the hull of metal boat. I do not want to start "radio-telecommunication" type of talk in this forum, that why I give my simplified version. So, people who know radio-telecommunication, be easy on me. If you see something incorrect, please correct me. But I do not want to be involved in "professional" discussion. > > Cell phones and wi-fi work in micro-wave band. This means, that metal cylinder with proper diameter will be the guide for such waves. Waves will reflect from walls of the guide and propagate to the opening. Coaxial cable will have more signal loss than wave guide. > > Example is Micro-wave oven (same frequency as Wi-Fi). It has high power transmitter inside (500-1000 w) and when door closed, there is very little emission from it (waves stay inside), but when door is open, all power will go trough that opening outside. That is one of the reasons why MW oven has safety switch on the door, which kills transmitter when door is open. > > Ok, back to the subject. > > 1.Most marinas have "high power" wi-fi adapter (about 1-5w). Some of them have directive antennas. Standard computer's wi-fi adapter usually has power about 0.125w and less. You may see very good signal on your computer (because of strong signal from marina) but your adapter's transmitter will not have enough power to deliver the signal and establish connection. This is most common problem. What counts here – how much power is delivered to marina receiver by your adapter. You can solve the problem by using more powerful adapter or antenna with more gain. > 2.The hull is not really grounded through the water in this case, unless you have proper lighting grounding and radio-waves grounding. Paint is insulator and most of the hull may not be the ground for micro-waves. > 3.Effect of the metal hull. The metal hull with openings (window, hatches) acts as wave guide. Waves enters openings in the hull, got reflected and stay inside. If the openings are facing marina directive antenna, it is possible to get strong signal even below the level of openings (because waves are reflected inside the metal hull). Same with the transmittion from your adapter - metal hull acts like directive antenna (with signal radiation through hull's openings) > > This is just my opinion on the "metal hull effect" for Wi-Fi and cell phone's signals. > | 23821|23793|2010-08-21 18:42:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: Internet reception|On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 10:22:50PM -0000, h wrote: > Hmmm I wonder what frequency mu hull is tuned to. Any complex structure has multiple harmonics, and usually isn't resonant at any particular one. More to the point, at the frequencies where cell phones and GPS units operate, the wavelengths are around 6-14", and so wouldn't have much connection to hull shape. In theory, you might have an accidental tuned cavity somewhere on board (read up on the "stovepipe effect" for some amusing possibilities), but it's unlikely and rather unpredictable, frequency-wise, by its nature. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23822|23793|2010-08-21 19:06:37|ron cook|Re: Internet reception|Hi ALL I don't post but read everything. I have tried to leave the group because I am going into the hospital for seneral months. I'll rejoin When I am home. I keep getting an erro measage help please Thank you.....Ron Cook [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23823|23793|2010-08-21 19:14:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: Internet reception|On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 07:05:57PM -0400, ron cook wrote: > Hi ALL I don't post but read everything. I have tried to leave the > group because I am going into the hospital for seneral months. I'll > rejoin When I am home. > > I keep getting an erro measage help please Ron, I've set your account to "No email". If you have any problems restoring it when you return, please let me know and I'll flip it on again. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23824|23793|2010-08-21 22:29:29|Matt Malone|Re: Internet reception: More Complex than the Tides|Here is a better graphic for Moon(M2) and Sun(K1) tides... I am still trying to find the diagram that had the arrows drawn on it, to show the direction of "wobble" of the tides. If you take a coffee cup and move it just right in a circle, the surface of the coffee slopes and that flat surface goes in a circle around the cup, like a precessing top. At every one of the spider-web like intersections, the surface of the ocean does not change level, but wobbles around this point -- some wobble clockwise, some counterclockwise. The other graphic I cannot find now shows the direction that they progress. Note how different the Sun and Moon tide maps are. Very cool. http://www.aviso.oceanobs.com/fileadmin/images/news/image_du_mois/2000/200010_m2_amp_pha_fes99.gif http://www.aviso.oceanobs.com/fileadmin/images/news/image_du_mois/2000/200010_k1_amp_pha_fes99.gif The parent page, http://www.aviso.oceanobs.com/en/news/idm/2000/oct-2000-sun-and-moon-shape-tides-on-earth/index.html explains how the average tide is a sum of these tide components and more. Apparently, the sun and moon stimulate other oscillations in the ocean in different patterns also, and it is the sum of these patterns that gives the actual tide. Matt --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gschnell@... Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:22:59 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Internet reception: More Complex than the Tides Excellent graphical representation of wave/tide action. Thanks Gord On 20-Aug-10, at 2:40 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > Wild_Explorer -- absolutely. I wish radio waves were visible > sometimes so that it were possible to see all the weird > interactions, and see if things are changed a little bit how the > whole pattern changes drastically. > > I would like to turn this back to something nautical and also > informative in that it will give some insight into just how complex > something can get with a little geometry. Tides are simple right, > moon pulls the water on the moon side of the earth a lot, pulls the > Earth a little, leaving the water on the opposite side of the Earth > behind -- consequence, high tide on the near and far side. We all > learned this in school, and we probably explained it to other people > in the same way. We can all picture that oscillation, the simple > progression of this pair of bumps around the world. > > Now we have all read tide tables at one time or another and if we > have sat and thought about it, we have probably scratched our heads > wondering why is it so complicated. Actually, it is far more > complicated than most any of us imagined, and it required a > different point of view to see the whole story. Here is a beautiful > graphic that originates from the Topex/Poseidon satelite, a > brilliant piece of science. (For further reading, please see also > Kelvin Waves and Rossby Waves if you want a real brain bender. > These waves that can take years to cross an ocean.) The graphic > shows just how complex the swirls and oscillations of the tides are, > because of the shape of the land. If anyone can provide a link to > a much higher resolution image, I would be very interested. > > http://www.seafriends.org.nz/niue/topextide.jpg > > The first thing I see is, there is a lot of blue and green, very > small tides ranging from zero to just over a foot in height, and > only small pockets where the tides are more than 1 meter. There is > no doubt, without land, if the Earth was one big sea, even if just > in a wide belt around the equator, the tides would be a lot > greater. Returning for a second to the radio waves getting into a > metal hull, bigger tides would be the equivalent to higher amplitude > waves, and probably better reception. Generally speaking, the land > is getting in the way of the tides, like the hull of a boat does, > but there are some very complex patterns possible, and like Wild > Explorer said, even amplification is possible. > > We could talk about this all day, and all be right, because it is > just sooooo complicated. > > I hope everyone enjoyed the graphic. > > Matt > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:44:31 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Internet reception > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I > was thinking about explanation why there is no big difference in > signal > strength inside and outside the hull of metal boat. I do not want to > start "radio-telecommunication" type of talk in this forum, that why I > give my simplified version. So, people who know > radio-telecommunication, be easy on me. If you see something > incorrect, > please correct me. But I do not want to be involved in "professional" > discussion. > > > > Cell phones and wi-fi work in micro-wave band. This means, that metal > cylinder with proper diameter will be the guide for such waves. Waves > will reflect from walls of the guide and propagate to the opening. > Coaxial cable will have more signal loss than wave guide. > > > > Example is Micro-wave oven (same frequency as Wi-Fi). It has high > power > transmitter inside (500-1000 w) and when door closed, there is very > little emission from it (waves stay inside), but when door is open, > all > power will go trough that opening outside. That is one of the reasons > why MW oven has safety switch on the door, which kills transmitter > when > door is open. > > > > Ok, back to the subject. > > > > 1.Most marinas have "high power" wi-fi adapter (about 1-5w). Some of > them have directive antennas. Standard computer's wi-fi adapter > usually > has power about 0.125w and less. You may see very good signal on your > computer (because of strong signal from marina) but your adapter's > transmitter will not have enough power to deliver the signal and > establish connection. This is most common problem. What counts here � > how much power is delivered to marina receiver by your adapter. You > can > solve the problem by using more powerful adapter or antenna with more > gain. > > 2.The hull is not really grounded through the water in this case, > unless you have proper lighting grounding and radio-waves grounding. > Paint is insulator and most of the hull may not be the ground for > micro-waves. > > 3.Effect of the metal hull. The metal hull with openings (window, > hatches) acts as wave guide. Waves enters openings in the hull, got > reflected and stay inside. If the openings are facing marina directive > antenna, it is possible to get strong signal even below the level of > openings (because waves are reflected inside the metal hull). Same > with > the transmittion from your adapter - metal hull acts like directive > antenna (with signal radiation through hull's openings) > > > > This is just my opinion on the "metal hull effect" for Wi-Fi and > cell phone's signals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23825|23804|2010-08-23 07:22:41|hannes_vavra|Re: canoe - ask fpr help|some tiem ago I found this scribble (http://www.dschin.at/wandern/wasser/img/origami-canoe.jpg), but now I'm looking for the designer of this canoe. (dschin.at is my site) the cut is ok --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > I found a DIY aluminum canoe site online--the plans are $5.99 USD- www.ejunkie.com/shop/product/42060.php > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: hannes_vavra > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:42 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] canoe - ask fpr help > > > > somewhere in origami-yahoogroups I found scribbles of an origami canoe > > does somebody know the link > > regards from austria > > hanne > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23826|23816|2010-08-23 21:54:14|LastParadise|Re: Adapting designs to origami|If you take this line to Bedford's site: http://www.benford.us/index.html?lists.html Then go down to the 35' Mercedes you can open a PDF with some more details. Anyhow, have come across a Tanton Design named Whitehead (horrible name) that is similar that is suitable for origami. Thanks for the imput. Jeff --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Jeff > do you have a internet link to the design? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: LastParadise > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, August 20, 2010 3:54:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Adapting designs to origami > >   > Just looking into this origami and steel boat thing. Have 20 years of wood/epoxy > building and fiberglass repair. > > I'm interested in building a Jay Benford Mercedes 35 double ender. Similar to a > Westsail 32 just longer and quite a bit faster at least the C-Flex version I've > seen. > > Anyway, he offers plans for a 2 chine steel design and was wondering how > practical it was to build her with some type of origami or if anyone new of a > similar design for origami. > > Cheers, > Jeff > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23827|23804|2010-08-26 08:04:06|cumorglas|Re: canoe - ask fpr help|when we build these out of wood we call this process "stitch and glue". there are a LOT of stitch and glue canoes and kayaks. the process works better for kayaks than canoes. while i don't recognize your sketch exactly almost all of the designs look more or less like that. it's the nature of the process. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hannes_vavra" wrote: > > some tiem ago I found this scribble (http://www.dschin.at/wandern/wasser/img/origami-canoe.jpg), but now I'm looking for the designer of this canoe. (dschin.at is my site) > > the cut is ok > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > > > I found a DIY aluminum canoe site online--the plans are $5.99 USD- www.ejunkie.com/shop/product/42060.php > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: hannes_vavra > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:42 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] canoe - ask fpr help > > > > > > > > somewhere in origami-yahoogroups I found scribbles of an origami canoe > > > > does somebody know the link > > > > regards from austria > > > > hanne > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 23828|23804|2010-08-26 08:26:50|hannes_vavra|Re: canoe - ask fpr help|in the meantime a found the polish page (http://www.sail-ho.pl/article.php?sid=1591 - scroll down to point 3.) thise canoe will be build in a "tortured ply"-way. faster than any stich&glue-canoe. take also a look to www.dschin.at/canoe/88-Nw-06-Kanou_indianskie.pdf -very insteresting polish scan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cumorglas" wrote: > > when we build these out of wood we call this process "stitch and glue". there are a LOT of stitch and glue canoes and kayaks. the process works better for kayaks than canoes. while i don't recognize your sketch exactly almost all of the designs look more or less like that. it's the nature of the process. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hannes_vavra" wrote: > > > > some tiem ago I found this scribble (http://www.dschin.at/wandern/wasser/img/origami-canoe.jpg), but now I'm looking for the designer of this canoe. (dschin.at is my site) > > > > the cut is ok > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > > > > > I found a DIY aluminum canoe site online--the plans are $5.99 USD- www.ejunkie.com/shop/product/42060.php > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: hannes_vavra > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:42 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] canoe - ask fpr help > > > > > > > > > > > > somewhere in origami-yahoogroups I found scribbles of an origami canoe > > > > > > does somebody know the link > > > > > > regards from austria > > > > > > hanne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 23829|23804|2010-08-26 08:41:32|Ben Okopnik|Re: canoe - ask fpr help|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cumorglas" wrote: > > when we build these out of wood we call this process "stitch and > glue". there are a LOT of stitch and glue canoes and kayaks. the > process works better for kayaks than canoes. I watched a fellow cruiser build a kayak on the beach in Boqueron, Puerto Rico, in just a couple of hours of work (his inflatable had been progressively falling apart, and he'd had enough of patching the damn thing.) All it took was some plywood, copper wire, fiberglass tape, and epoxy. As soon as the epoxy finished kicking off, he threw it in the water and took off like an arrow. I've often wished I was small enough so that one of those would be useful for me. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23830|23804|2010-08-26 12:03:21|Mark Hamill|Re: canoe - ask fpr help|This site is very interesting for rigid and folding DIY kayaks-- http://yostwerks.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23831|23831|2010-08-26 23:29:35|brentswain38|Keel cooling oil|A friend just told me he put some water soluble oil in his keel cooler, antifreeze mix, the kind machinists use, with good results. If the top of your keep cooler dries out, the oil coats it until the water gets sloshed back up there again, preventing corrosion above the coolant line. It also keep oxygen out of the coolant Sounds like a good idea.| 23832|23831|2010-08-26 23:31:54|HAYDN GROSVENOR|Re: Keel cooling oil|I wonder if a little exhaust fumes would keep the rust down ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 27 August, 2010 1:29:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Keel cooling oil   A friend just told me he put some water soluble oil in his keel cooler, antifreeze mix, the kind machinists use, with good results. If the top of your keep cooler dries out, the oil coats it until the water gets sloshed back up there again, preventing corrosion above the coolant line. It also keep oxygen out of the coolant Sounds like a good idea. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23833|23831|2010-08-27 00:11:43|John Fuller|Re: Keel cooling oil|Not if my exhaust is any indication _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of HAYDN GROSVENOR Sent: August 26, 2010 8:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Keel cooling oil I wonder if a little exhaust fumes would keep the rust down ________________________________ From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 27 August, 2010 1:29:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Keel cooling oil A friend just told me he put some water soluble oil in his keel cooler, antifreeze mix, the kind machinists use, with good results. If the top of your keep cooler dries out, the oil coats it until the water gets sloshed back up there again, preventing corrosion above the coolant line. It also keep oxygen out of the coolant Sounds like a good idea. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23834|23834|2010-08-27 10:18:46|Carl Andersen|BS 31 What will it cost to build|Hi I am new here. I have now seen Alex Christie Origami boatbuilding DVD 3 times, and that has convinced me that it's the right construction method for me to build my own boat. BS 31 will match to me, because it can be handled by one man, but the price to build has also great importance, when I do not have lot of money. Is there somebody who can give a realistic price, what it will cost to build BS 31 if I make all the work myself. Right for the moment my daughter and I sails with this ship http://www.sluppenruth.dk/forside.php It owns by the Danish national museum. We are 12 volunteer that maintain it free of charge, in return we can come out to sail with it. But it's heavy work, so we'd like to have our own boat, where there haven't to be used so a lot of muscles :) Carl Andersen| 23835|23834|2010-08-27 10:40:35|Ben Okopnik|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 02:05:33PM -0000, Carl Andersen wrote: > > BS 31 will match to me, because it can be handled by one man, but the > price to build has also great importance, when I do not have lot of > money. > > Is there somebody who can give a realistic price, what it will cost to > build BS 31 if I make all the work myself. Carl, you can always search the Origami archive at http://okopnik.com/origami - this kind of discussion has come up a number of times before. For example: http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?subject=build+cost&search=search -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23836|23834|2010-08-27 11:21:38|Carl Andersen|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 02:05:33PM -0000, Carl Andersen wrote: > > > > BS 31 will match to me, because it can be handled by one man, but the > > price to build has also great importance, when I do not have lot of > > money. > > > > Is there somebody who can give a realistic price, what it will cost to > > build BS 31 if I make all the work myself. > > Carl, you can always search the Origami archive at > http://okopnik.com/origami - this kind of discussion has come up a > number of times before. For example: > > http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?subject=build+cost&search=search This is true enough Ben, but the only thing I could find, were this. http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?msg=3054&start=23900 "I built Eclectus, a BS31 in 1983, and launched in 1985. First offshore trip was 1986. To put the boat in the water in basic sailing trim was about $16-$17000 " I hoped that there was somebody here there were building BS 31 now, so that they could say something about the prices in 2010. Carl Andersen| 23837|23834|2010-08-27 17:16:21|jason ball|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|i've just bought eclectus (falmouth uk) for £2000 sterling. cockpit needs replacing, needs new mainsail and welding round windows (ports) and bit on the decks. thats what i found so far. the sabb 8hp variable pitch two bladed prop also needs work, but i'm not grumblin, in fact i'm over the moon, hey hey! can anyone convince me about this anchoring with wire rope, as i've only ever done it with chain or chain and rope. i like the concept (light on fordeck and loads of it, so u can anchor deep)  but not sure about weight and the catenary.is there many people that have used this to good effect, thanks. jason ball --- On Fri, 27/8/10, Carl Andersen wrote: From: Carl Andersen Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 27 August, 2010, 16:21   --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 02:05:33PM -0000, Carl Andersen wrote: > > > > BS 31 will match to me, because it can be handled by one man, but the > > price to build has also great importance, when I do not have lot of > > money. > > > > Is there somebody who can give a realistic price, what it will cost to > > build BS 31 if I make all the work myself. > > Carl, you can always search the Origami archive at > http://okopnik.com/origami - this kind of discussion has come up a > number of times before. For example: > > http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?subject=build+cost&search=search This is true enough Ben, but the only thing I could find, were this. http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?msg=3054&start=23900 "I built Eclectus, a BS31 in 1983, and launched in 1985. First offshore trip was 1986. To put the boat in the water in basic sailing trim was about $16-$17000 " I hoped that there was somebody here there were building BS 31 now, so that they could say something about the prices in 2010. Carl Andersen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23838|23834|2010-08-27 17:30:25|Matt Malone|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|The Sluppen Ruth looks nice, but doesn't sluppen mean 'sloop'. It is a beautiful gaff-rigged... flying topsail... cutter? Is that what it is called when there is only one mast and that many sails ? If it had two masts, it will clearly be a schooner. Nice boat. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: carl@... Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:05:33 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] BS 31 What will it cost to build Hi I am new here. I have now seen Alex Christie Origami boatbuilding DVD 3 times, and that has convinced me that it's the right construction method for me to build my own boat. BS 31 will match to me, because it can be handled by one man, but the price to build has also great importance, when I do not have lot of money. Is there somebody who can give a realistic price, what it will cost to build BS 31 if I make all the work myself. Right for the moment my daughter and I sails with this ship http://www.sluppenruth.dk/forside.php It owns by the Danish national museum. We are 12 volunteer that maintain it free of charge, in return we can come out to sail with it. But it's heavy work, so we'd like to have our own boat, where there haven't to be used so a lot of muscles :) Carl Andersen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23839|23834|2010-08-27 17:50:51|brentswain38|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|Jason I have used stainless wire rope in tee tropics, but it gets meat hooks in it after a winter. Paul uses galvanized wire rope , with no meathooks. It rusts more, but it is very cheap to replace. The same is true of wire halyards. I found it necessary to weld flat bar vertically from the bottom of the trailing edge of the keels to the hull, to stop the anchor rode from fouling the keels. Since then I've changed the shape of the trailing edges of the keels to vertical , so it's not a problem in newer boats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jason ball wrote: > > i've just bought eclectus (falmouth uk) for £2000 sterling. cockpit needs replacing, needs new mainsail and welding round windows (ports) and bit on the decks. thats what i found so far. the sabb 8hp variable pitch two bladed prop also needs work, but i'm not grumblin, in fact i'm over the moon, hey hey! can anyone convince me about this anchoring with wire rope, as i've only ever done it with chain or chain and rope. i like the concept (light on fordeck and loads of it, so u can anchor deep)  but not sure about weight and the catenary.is there many people that have used this to good effect, thanks. jason ball > > --- On Fri, 27/8/10, Carl Andersen wrote: > > > From: Carl Andersen > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, 27 August, 2010, 16:21 > > >   > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 02:05:33PM -0000, Carl Andersen wrote: > > > > > > BS 31 will match to me, because it can be handled by one man, but the > > > price to build has also great importance, when I do not have lot of > > > money. > > > > > > Is there somebody who can give a realistic price, what it will cost to > > > build BS 31 if I make all the work myself. > > > > Carl, you can always search the Origami archive at > > http://okopnik.com/origami - this kind of discussion has come up a > > number of times before. For example: > > > > http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?subject=build+cost&search=search > > This is true enough Ben, but the only thing I could find, were this. > http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?msg=3054&start=23900 > "I built Eclectus, a BS31 in 1983, and launched in 1985. First offshore trip > was 1986. To put the boat in the water in basic sailing trim was about > $16-$17000 " > > I hoped that there was somebody here there were building BS 31 now, so that they could say something about the prices in 2010. > > Carl Andersen > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23840|23834|2010-08-27 17:53:50|brentswain38|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|Take the materials list for the 31 to a steel supplier for a quote. 4mm is good for the hull and 3mm for the decks. Seek out surplus epoxy sources, and wheel balancing shops for lead wheel weights. Used sails and sailing gear are everywhere, for a fraction the cost of new. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jason ball wrote: > > i've just bought eclectus (falmouth uk) for £2000 sterling. cockpit needs replacing, needs new mainsail and welding round windows (ports) and bit on the decks. thats what i found so far. the sabb 8hp variable pitch two bladed prop also needs work, but i'm not grumblin, in fact i'm over the moon, hey hey! can anyone convince me about this anchoring with wire rope, as i've only ever done it with chain or chain and rope. i like the concept (light on fordeck and loads of it, so u can anchor deep)  but not sure about weight and the catenary.is there many people that have used this to good effect, thanks. jason ball > > --- On Fri, 27/8/10, Carl Andersen wrote: > > > From: Carl Andersen > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, 27 August, 2010, 16:21 > > >   > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 02:05:33PM -0000, Carl Andersen wrote: > > > > > > BS 31 will match to me, because it can be handled by one man, but the > > > price to build has also great importance, when I do not have lot of > > > money. > > > > > > Is there somebody who can give a realistic price, what it will cost to > > > build BS 31 if I make all the work myself. > > > > Carl, you can always search the Origami archive at > > http://okopnik.com/origami - this kind of discussion has come up a > > number of times before. For example: > > > > http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?subject=build+cost&search=search > > This is true enough Ben, but the only thing I could find, were this. > http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?msg=3054&start=23900 > "I built Eclectus, a BS31 in 1983, and launched in 1985. First offshore trip > was 1986. To put the boat in the water in basic sailing trim was about > $16-$17000 " > > I hoped that there was somebody here there were building BS 31 now, so that they could say something about the prices in 2010. > > Carl Andersen > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23841|23834|2010-08-27 17:55:30|Carl Andersen|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|Den 27-08-2010 23:29, Matt Malone skrev: > > The Sluppen Ruth looks nice, but doesn't sluppen mean 'sloop'. It is a beautiful gaff-rigged... flying topsail... cutter? Is that what it is called when there is only one mast and that many sails ? If it had two masts, it will clearly be a schooner. Nice boat. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: carl@... > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:05:33 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] BS 31 What will it cost to build > > > > > > Yes it means 'sloop'. Carl Andersen| 23842|23834|2010-08-27 18:04:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 09:16:11PM +0000, jason ball wrote: > i've just bought eclectus (falmouth uk) for £2000 sterling. cockpit > needs replacing, needs new mainsail and welding round windows (ports) > and bit on the decks. thats what i found so far. the sabb 8hp variable > pitch two bladed prop also needs work, but i'm not grumblin, in fact > i'm over the moon, hey hey! can anyone convince me about this > anchoring with wire rope, as i've only ever done it with chain or > chain and rope. i like the concept (light on fordeck and loads of it, > so u can anchor deep)  but not sure about weight and the catenary.is > there many people that have used this to good effect, thanks. I sailed through New York Harbor a few weeks back. Half the huge barges there are anchored with chain, where the links are the size of my head, and the other half with wire rope that's so small you can't see it from half a mile away. These guys sit there through all kinds of storms, and must know something. In addition, the guys with the big chain had *huge* mechanisms on the foredeck for handling it, and the ones with cable just had a spool and a brake. For anyone in doubt, it might be worth talking to the big-ship guys about it - they're generally a pretty good bunch, especially if you buy'em a beer. They usually have a pretty rough sense of humor about the little plastic boats that get in their way, but they have at least a little respect for steel boats. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23843|23834|2010-08-27 18:06:57|Carl Andersen|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|Den 27-08-2010 23:53, brentswain38 skrev: > > Take the materials list for the 31 to a steel supplier for a quote. > 4mm is good for the hull and 3mm for the decks. > Seek out surplus epoxy sources, and wheel balancing shops for lead > wheel weights. > Used sails and sailing gear are everywhere, for a fraction the cost of > new. > > - > > > . > > Thank Brent, I will examine the price on steel, and will soon order drawings to BS 31 Carl Andersen Denmark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23844|23834|2010-08-28 19:08:53|brentswain38|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|I cast a lead kellet in a litre can, which weighs about 30 lbs, With a large 10mm ss rod loop cast in the top. I can loop my anchor rode thru this for catenary. Unlike chain , I get to lift the kellet off the bottom and on deck, and take it off, before handling the weight of the anchor . In strong wind, I have put several kellets on, and can lift them one at a time to take them off, eliminating the need to lift the weight of your entire catenary at once. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 09:16:11PM +0000, jason ball wrote: > > i've just bought eclectus (falmouth uk) for £2000 sterling. cockpit > > needs replacing, needs new mainsail and welding round windows (ports) > > and bit on the decks. thats what i found so far. the sabb 8hp variable > > pitch two bladed prop also needs work, but i'm not grumblin, in fact > > i'm over the moon, hey hey! can anyone convince me about this > > anchoring with wire rope, as i've only ever done it with chain or > > chain and rope. i like the concept (light on fordeck and loads of it, > > so u can anchor deep)  but not sure about weight and the catenary.is > > there many people that have used this to good effect, thanks. > > I sailed through New York Harbor a few weeks back. Half the huge barges > there are anchored with chain, where the links are the size of my head, > and the other half with wire rope that's so small you can't see it from > half a mile away. These guys sit there through all kinds of storms, and > must know something. > > In addition, the guys with the big chain had *huge* mechanisms on the > foredeck for handling it, and the ones with cable just had a spool and a > brake. For anyone in doubt, it might be worth talking to the big-ship > guys about it - they're generally a pretty good bunch, especially if you > buy'em a beer. They usually have a pretty rough sense of humor about the > little plastic boats that get in their way, but they have at least a > little respect for steel boats. > > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23845|23845|2010-08-29 04:05:25|kingsknight4life|URGENT! I NEED YOUR HELP|Hi everyone, Bev and I are losing our storage spot in Comox and have to move our hull ASAP. Does anyone have a place or a lead on a cheap place where we can have it moved to in the Comox area? We would also consider moving it down to the Nanaimo area too. As a last resort we might even move it to Edmonton so I can slowly work on it in what little free time I have. working on a boat in BC while living in Alberta is getting us now where. Thanks, Rowland and Bev| 23846|23804|2010-08-29 09:25:40|Ralph|Re: canoe - ask fpr help|Maybe you are looking for this: http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/diva.htm I bought the plans but never did anything with them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hannes_vavra" wrote: > > somewhere in origami-yahoogroups I found scribbles of an origami canoe > > does somebody know the link > > > regards from austria > > > hanne > | 23847|23847|2010-08-29 09:54:12|Leticia|keel kooler alloy tug 22'|hello my name is calos /sydney /australia new in the forum building alloy tug boat, i need advice on the constrution of the keel kooler if posible drawing or sketch for a 30 AP diesel engine. the idea is to make along the keel,i will like to see the metodo to build them,my idea is to maiking 6'x4"flat bar that will give a5.5ft2^ kooler capasity, any advice will be grate cheers carlos| 23848|23834|2010-08-29 10:22:34|jason ball|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|thanks, so the kellets are put on at intervals of how many metres usually? and what ways are best to attach them? wow you would think that it would be the galv wire rope that gets meat hooks, why do you reckon that is? twist maybe. does it twist up alot? what size wire is usual?  do you normally go  for more scope than with  chain? i suppose you could shackle several lengths of wire rope together.what do you use for the terminals?thanks, i like the idea. --- On Sun, 29/8/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 29 August, 2010, 0:08   I cast a lead kellet in a litre can, which weighs about 30 lbs, With a large 10mm ss rod loop cast in the top. I can loop my anchor rode thru this for catenary. Unlike chain , I get to lift the kellet off the bottom and on deck, and take it off, before handling the weight of the anchor . In strong wind, I have put several kellets on, and can lift them one at a time to take them off, eliminating the need to lift the weight of your entire catenary at once. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 09:16:11PM +0000, jason ball wrote: > > i've just bought eclectus (falmouth uk) for £2000 sterling. cockpit > > needs replacing, needs new mainsail and welding round windows (ports) > > and bit on the decks. thats what i found so far. the sabb 8hp variable > > pitch two bladed prop also needs work, but i'm not grumblin, in fact > > i'm over the moon, hey hey! can anyone convince me about this > > anchoring with wire rope, as i've only ever done it with chain or > > chain and rope. i like the concept (light on fordeck and loads of it, > > so u can anchor deep)  but not sure about weight and the catenary.is > > there many people that have used this to good effect, thanks. > > I sailed through New York Harbor a few weeks back. Half the huge barges > there are anchored with chain, where the links are the size of my head, > and the other half with wire rope that's so small you can't see it from > half a mile away. These guys sit there through all kinds of storms, and > must know something. > > In addition, the guys with the big chain had *huge* mechanisms on the > foredeck for handling it, and the ones with cable just had a spool and a > brake. For anyone in doubt, it might be worth talking to the big-ship > guys about it - they're generally a pretty good bunch, especially if you > buy'em a beer. They usually have a pretty rough sense of humor about the > little plastic boats that get in their way, but they have at least a > little respect for steel boats. > > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23849|23845|2010-08-29 14:28:48|h|Re: URGENT! I NEED YOUR HELP|Larison trucking has done the low bed towing for me 250-338-3339 or 250-338-8802 Dan larison and mike at shamrock crane 250-338-8247. I would go down the street across the dove creek bridge to the dairy farm thats right on the other side there and see if you can pay the them to pull the boat out from under the power lines with a tractor, they should have one big enough to move it, I towed mine with a tractor fully loaded on pipe rollers (some of which, it crushed, but that was on cement), rather than the tow truck as you have all you lead in already, mine was light at the time(s) they pulled it. I believe their names are Brian and Barbara Milley, Lloydshaven Farms. Otherwise Courtenay towing was the company that moved the boat before. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Bev and I are losing our storage spot in > Comox and have to move our hull ASAP. > Does anyone have a place or a lead on a > cheap place where we can have it moved to > in the Comox area? > > We would also consider moving it down to the Nanaimo area too. > As a last resort we might even move it to Edmonton so I can > slowly work on it in what little free time I have. working on a boat > in BC while living in Alberta is getting us now where. > > Thanks, > Rowland and Bev > | 23850|23850|2010-08-29 16:38:44|Carl Anderson|updated web page|We have updated our web site and have added some video of our trip around Vancouver Island. More story and pictures/video will be added later. Just to let others know. Carl & Kate sv-mom.com| 23851|23851|2010-08-29 17:28:04|h|real origami boat|http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/08/27/foldable.origami.superyacht/#fbid=btMu4_P9x7P&wom=false Here you go brent real origami boats, I guess those folks on the boat design forums were right all along...| 23852|23851|2010-08-29 18:01:07|Ben Okopnik|Re: real origami boat|On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 09:28:02PM -0000, h wrote: > http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/08/27/foldable.origami.superyacht/#fbid=btMu4_P9x7P&wom=false > > Here you go brent real origami boats, I guess those folks on the boat > design forums were right all along... You mean those guys were predicting the future when they said "origami boats are ugly"? Wow, I'm impressed. Are you sure it's not made by the Teledildonics Corporation? :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23853|23851|2010-08-30 20:29:00|h|Re: real origami boat|yeah I had trouble figuring out which end was the front --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 09:28:02PM -0000, h wrote: > > http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/08/27/foldable.origami.superyacht/#fbid=btMu4_P9x7P&wom=false > > > > Here you go brent real origami boats, I guess those folks on the boat > > design forums were right all along... > > You mean those guys were predicting the future when they said "origami > boats are ugly"? Wow, I'm impressed. > > Are you sure it's not made by the Teledildonics Corporation? :) > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23854|23834|2010-08-30 21:14:59|brentswain38|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|If the distance from the first kellet to the anchor is slightly greater than the depth of the water, you get to raise them one at a time, far easier than with chain, which you have to lift simultaneously with the anchor. If the distance between the first kellet and the second one is slightly greater than the depth of the water, you get to raise them individually , as well. I use 50 ft lengths of wire, so there is a thimble to shackle a kellet on every 50 feet. In northern waters , you only need 15 feet of wire or chain, so I just loop the half inch nylon rope thru the eye of the kellet and back over the kellet. I only use kellets in strong winds or tight anchorages. Stainless wire gets meathooks , galvanized doesn't . I put apiece of rope as a snubber on the end of wire in the tropics, so twisting was never a problem. With kellets I use about the same scope as with chain, altho in tight anchorages you can use less with a kellet. For the 31, I use 1/4 inch or about 6mm 7x19 wire. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jason ball wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > thanks, so the kellets are put on at intervals of how many metres usually? and what ways are best to attach them? wow you would think that it would be the galv wire rope that gets meat hooks, why do you reckon that is? twist maybe. does it twist up alot? what size wire is usual?  do you normally go  for more scope than with  chain? i suppose you could shackle several lengths of wire rope together.what do you use for the terminals?thanks, i like the idea. > > --- On Sun, 29/8/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, 29 August, 2010, 0:08 > > >   > > > > I cast a lead kellet in a litre can, which weighs about 30 lbs, With a large 10mm ss rod loop cast in the top. I can loop my anchor rode thru this for catenary. Unlike chain , I get to lift the kellet off the bottom and on deck, and take it off, before handling the weight of the anchor . In strong wind, I have put several kellets on, and can lift them one at a time to take them off, eliminating the need to lift the weight of your entire catenary at once. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 09:16:11PM +0000, jason ball wrote: > > > i've just bought eclectus (falmouth uk) for £2000 sterling. cockpit > > > needs replacing, needs new mainsail and welding round windows (ports) > > > and bit on the decks. thats what i found so far. the sabb 8hp variable > > > pitch two bladed prop also needs work, but i'm not grumblin, in fact > > > i'm over the moon, hey hey! can anyone convince me about this > > > anchoring with wire rope, as i've only ever done it with chain or > > > chain and rope. i like the concept (light on fordeck and loads of it, > > > so u can anchor deep)  but not sure about weight and the catenary.is > > > there many people that have used this to good effect, thanks. > > > > I sailed through New York Harbor a few weeks back. Half the huge barges > > there are anchored with chain, where the links are the size of my head, > > and the other half with wire rope that's so small you can't see it from > > half a mile away. These guys sit there through all kinds of storms, and > > must know something. > > > > In addition, the guys with the big chain had *huge* mechanisms on the > > foredeck for handling it, and the ones with cable just had a spool and a > > brake. For anyone in doubt, it might be worth talking to the big-ship > > guys about it - they're generally a pretty good bunch, especially if you > > buy'em a beer. They usually have a pretty rough sense of humor about the > > little plastic boats that get in their way, but they have at least a > > little respect for steel boats. > > > > > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23855|23834|2010-08-31 16:44:42|jason ball|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|thats great, thanks for that!..i'll give it a go... jason ball --- On Tue, 31/8/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 2:14   If the distance from the first kellet to the anchor is slightly greater than the depth of the water, you get to raise them one at a time, far easier than with chain, which you have to lift simultaneously with the anchor. If the distance between the first kellet and the second one is slightly greater than the depth of the water, you get to raise them individually , as well. I use 50 ft lengths of wire, so there is a thimble to shackle a kellet on every 50 feet. In northern waters , you only need 15 feet of wire or chain, so I just loop the half inch nylon rope thru the eye of the kellet and back over the kellet. I only use kellets in strong winds or tight anchorages. Stainless wire gets meathooks , galvanized doesn't . I put apiece of rope as a snubber on the end of wire in the tropics, so twisting was never a problem. With kellets I use about the same scope as with chain, altho in tight anchorages you can use less with a kellet. For the 31, I use 1/4 inch or about 6mm 7x19 wire. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jason ball wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > thanks, so the kellets are put on at intervals of how many metres usually? and what ways are best to attach them? wow you would think that it would be the galv wire rope that gets meat hooks, why do you reckon that is? twist maybe. does it twist up alot? what size wire is usual?  do you normally go  for more scope than with  chain? i suppose you could shackle several lengths of wire rope together.what do you use for the terminals?thanks, i like the idea. > > --- On Sun, 29/8/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, 29 August, 2010, 0:08 > > >   > > > > I cast a lead kellet in a litre can, which weighs about 30 lbs, With a large 10mm ss rod loop cast in the top. I can loop my anchor rode thru this for catenary. Unlike chain , I get to lift the kellet off the bottom and on deck, and take it off, before handling the weight of the anchor . In strong wind, I have put several kellets on, and can lift them one at a time to take them off, eliminating the need to lift the weight of your entire catenary at once. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 09:16:11PM +0000, jason ball wrote: > > > i've just bought eclectus (falmouth uk) for £2000 sterling. cockpit > > > needs replacing, needs new mainsail and welding round windows (ports) > > > and bit on the decks. thats what i found so far. the sabb 8hp variable > > > pitch two bladed prop also needs work, but i'm not grumblin, in fact > > > i'm over the moon, hey hey! can anyone convince me about this > > > anchoring with wire rope, as i've only ever done it with chain or > > > chain and rope. i like the concept (light on fordeck and loads of it, > > > so u can anchor deep)  but not sure about weight and the catenary.is > > > there many people that have used this to good effect, thanks. > > > > I sailed through New York Harbor a few weeks back. Half the huge barges > > there are anchored with chain, where the links are the size of my head, > > and the other half with wire rope that's so small you can't see it from > > half a mile away. These guys sit there through all kinds of storms, and > > must know something. > > > > In addition, the guys with the big chain had *huge* mechanisms on the > > foredeck for handling it, and the ones with cable just had a spool and a > > brake. For anyone in doubt, it might be worth talking to the big-ship > > guys about it - they're generally a pretty good bunch, especially if you > > buy'em a beer. They usually have a pretty rough sense of humor about the > > little plastic boats that get in their way, but they have at least a > > little respect for steel boats. > > > > > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23856|23856|2010-08-31 17:25:23|deniswig|montreal boat steel work unusual method|hello all I did not have enough brains to upload photos myself and i asked Ben to do the job - thanks Ben . THIS BOAT IS ON A HILL ROAD BETWEEN MONTREAL AND ARAZENS SW of Carcassonne SE France . It appears to be formed from 5mm thick steel from a continious roll which i previously thought to be impossible to do however seeing is believing . it is approx 40 ft long topsides and i have no idea as to the design --however it looks excellent for a home build - maybe somebody knows something -- I merely send these photos in order that those like me who thought this was impossible from lengths of steel can think again . I would like to hear from somebody who has actually built a boat what do you think of this and how did they do it ??. regards Denis Buggy| 23857|23856|2010-08-31 17:39:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: montreal boat steel work unusual method|On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 09:25:20PM -0000, deniswig wrote: > hello all > I did not have enough brains to upload photos myself and i asked > Ben to do the job - thanks Ben . > THIS BOAT IS ON A HILL ROAD BETWEEN MONTREAL AND ARAZENS SW of > Carcassonne SE France . > It appears to be formed from 5mm thick steel from a continious roll > which i previously thought to be impossible to do however seeing is > believing . > it is approx 40 ft long topsides and i have no idea as to the design > --however it looks excellent for a home build - maybe somebody knows > something -- I merely send these photos in order that those like me > who thought this was impossible from lengths of steel can think again > . > I would like to hear from somebody who has actually built a boat > what do you think of this and how did they do it ??. > regards Denis Buggy It's been uploaded to the Origami photos albums. TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/29vqt6f Full URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1373569247/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23858|23834|2010-08-31 17:52:40|brentswain38|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|A kellet can be used to unfoul an anchor rode from a keel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jason ball wrote: > > thats great, thanks for that!..i'll give it a go... jason ball > > --- On Tue, 31/8/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 2:14 > > >   > > > > If the distance from the first kellet to the anchor is slightly greater than the depth of the water, you get to raise them one at a time, far easier than with chain, which you have to lift simultaneously with the anchor. If the distance between the first kellet and the second one is slightly greater than the depth of the water, you get to raise them individually , as well. > I use 50 ft lengths of wire, so there is a thimble to shackle a kellet on every 50 feet. In northern waters , you only need 15 feet of wire or chain, so I just loop the half inch nylon rope thru the eye of the kellet and back over the kellet. > I only use kellets in strong winds or tight anchorages. > Stainless wire gets meathooks , galvanized doesn't . I put apiece of rope as a snubber on the end of wire in the tropics, so twisting was never a problem. > With kellets I use about the same scope as with chain, altho in tight anchorages you can use less with a kellet. > For the 31, I use 1/4 inch or about 6mm 7x19 wire. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jason ball wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks, so the kellets are put on at intervals of how many metres usually? and what ways are best to attach them? wow you would think that it would be the galv wire rope that gets meat hooks, why do you reckon that is? twist maybe. does it twist up alot? what size wire is usual?  do you normally go  for more scope than with  chain? i suppose you could shackle several lengths of wire rope together.what do you use for the terminals?thanks, i like the idea. > > > > --- On Sun, 29/8/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sunday, 29 August, 2010, 0:08 > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > I cast a lead kellet in a litre can, which weighs about 30 lbs, With a large 10mm ss rod loop cast in the top. I can loop my anchor rode thru this for catenary. Unlike chain , I get to lift the kellet off the bottom and on deck, and take it off, before handling the weight of the anchor . In strong wind, I have put several kellets on, and can lift them one at a time to take them off, eliminating the need to lift the weight of your entire catenary at once. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 09:16:11PM +0000, jason ball wrote: > > > > i've just bought eclectus (falmouth uk) for £2000 sterling. cockpit > > > > needs replacing, needs new mainsail and welding round windows (ports) > > > > and bit on the decks. thats what i found so far. the sabb 8hp variable > > > > pitch two bladed prop also needs work, but i'm not grumblin, in fact > > > > i'm over the moon, hey hey! can anyone convince me about this > > > > anchoring with wire rope, as i've only ever done it with chain or > > > > chain and rope. i like the concept (light on fordeck and loads of it, > > > > so u can anchor deep)  but not sure about weight and the catenary.is > > > > there many people that have used this to good effect, thanks. > > > > > > I sailed through New York Harbor a few weeks back. Half the huge barges > > > there are anchored with chain, where the links are the size of my head, > > > and the other half with wire rope that's so small you can't see it from > > > half a mile away. These guys sit there through all kinds of storms, and > > > must know something. > > > > > > In addition, the guys with the big chain had *huge* mechanisms on the > > > foredeck for handling it, and the ones with cable just had a spool and a > > > brake. For anyone in doubt, it might be worth talking to the big-ship > > > guys about it - they're generally a pretty good bunch, especially if you > > > buy'em a beer. They usually have a pretty rough sense of humor about the > > > little plastic boats that get in their way, but they have at least a > > > little respect for steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23859|23856|2010-08-31 18:02:11|Paul Wilson|Re: montreal boat steel work unusual method|It looks to me like the same method of construction as the original Joshua with the overlapping plates. They were built by Meta in France and was a patented process. That is an amazing amount of compound curve. http://www.anchoryachts.com/strongyachts_strongall.php http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Joshua_(yacht) Cheers, Paul On 9/1/2010 9:39 AM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 09:25:20PM -0000, deniswig wrote: > > hello all > > I did not have enough brains to upload photos myself and i asked > > Ben to do the job - thanks Ben . > > THIS BOAT IS ON A HILL ROAD BETWEEN MONTREAL AND ARAZENS SW of > > Carcassonne SE France . > > It appears to be formed from 5mm thick steel from a continious roll > > which i previously thought to be impossible to do however seeing is > > believing . > > it is approx 40 ft long topsides and i have no idea as to the design > > --however it looks excellent for a home build - maybe somebody knows > > something -- I merely send these photos in order that those like me > > who thought this was impossible from lengths of steel can think again > > . > > I would like to hear from somebody who has actually built a boat > > what do you think of this and how did they do it ??. > > regards Denis Buggy > > It's been uploaded to the Origami photos albums. > > TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/29vqt6f > Full URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1373569247/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3104 - Release Date: 08/31/10 18:34:00 > | 23860|23834|2010-08-31 18:05:33|jason ball|Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build|ha! yeah right will remember that one. --- On Tue, 31/8/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 22:52   A kellet can be used to unfoul an anchor rode from a keel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jason ball wrote: > > thats great, thanks for that!..i'll give it a go... jason ball > > --- On Tue, 31/8/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 2:14 > > >   > > > > If the distance from the first kellet to the anchor is slightly greater than the depth of the water, you get to raise them one at a time, far easier than with chain, which you have to lift simultaneously with the anchor. If the distance between the first kellet and the second one is slightly greater than the depth of the water, you get to raise them individually , as well. > I use 50 ft lengths of wire, so there is a thimble to shackle a kellet on every 50 feet. In northern waters , you only need 15 feet of wire or chain, so I just loop the half inch nylon rope thru the eye of the kellet and back over the kellet. > I only use kellets in strong winds or tight anchorages. > Stainless wire gets meathooks , galvanized doesn't . I put apiece of rope as a snubber on the end of wire in the tropics, so twisting was never a problem. > With kellets I use about the same scope as with chain, altho in tight anchorages you can use less with a kellet. > For the 31, I use 1/4 inch or about 6mm 7x19 wire. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jason ball wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks, so the kellets are put on at intervals of how many metres usually? and what ways are best to attach them? wow you would think that it would be the galv wire rope that gets meat hooks, why do you reckon that is? twist maybe. does it twist up alot? what size wire is usual?  do you normally go  for more scope than with  chain? i suppose you could shackle several lengths of wire rope together.what do you use for the terminals?thanks, i like the idea. > > > > --- On Sun, 29/8/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 What will it cost to build > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sunday, 29 August, 2010, 0:08 > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > I cast a lead kellet in a litre can, which weighs about 30 lbs, With a large 10mm ss rod loop cast in the top. I can loop my anchor rode thru this for catenary. Unlike chain , I get to lift the kellet off the bottom and on deck, and take it off, before handling the weight of the anchor . In strong wind, I have put several kellets on, and can lift them one at a time to take them off, eliminating the need to lift the weight of your entire catenary at once. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 09:16:11PM +0000, jason ball wrote: > > > > i've just bought eclectus (falmouth uk) for £2000 sterling. cockpit > > > > needs replacing, needs new mainsail and welding round windows (ports) > > > > and bit on the decks. thats what i found so far. the sabb 8hp variable > > > > pitch two bladed prop also needs work, but i'm not grumblin, in fact > > > > i'm over the moon, hey hey! can anyone convince me about this > > > > anchoring with wire rope, as i've only ever done it with chain or > > > > chain and rope. i like the concept (light on fordeck and loads of it, > > > > so u can anchor deep)  but not sure about weight and the catenary.is > > > > there many people that have used this to good effect, thanks. > > > > > > I sailed through New York Harbor a few weeks back. Half the huge barges > > > there are anchored with chain, where the links are the size of my head, > > > and the other half with wire rope that's so small you can't see it from > > > half a mile away. These guys sit there through all kinds of storms, and > > > must know something. > > > > > > In addition, the guys with the big chain had *huge* mechanisms on the > > > foredeck for handling it, and the ones with cable just had a spool and a > > > brake. For anyone in doubt, it might be worth talking to the big-ship > > > guys about it - they're generally a pretty good bunch, especially if you > > > buy'em a beer. They usually have a pretty rough sense of humor about the > > > little plastic boats that get in their way, but they have at least a > > > little respect for steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23861|23861|2010-08-31 19:05:28|mickeyolaf|Zinc Question|Will zinc plate bolted to an aluminum hull lift epoxy hull paint under the zinc as the zinc wastes? The connection of the zinc to the hull is two SS bolts and electricians contact paste. Thanks.| 23862|23862|2010-08-31 20:52:17|Leticia|my progect 22' alloy tug|i need some keel kooler sketch & advice to build them outside of the hull for a 25hp diesel engine, the void will be 80mmx4mt,y workout a 1.5ft2^per 10hp that will give a 5'ft2^cappacity hop that is ok, no to sure on how many fitings i need ,inlet/oulet plus my be some extra conection. thanks carlos| 23863|23861|2010-08-31 21:00:02|Matt Malone|Re: Zinc Question|Really good question. But all aluminium alloys contain zinc right? Even marine alloys. Ordinarily, alloys behave as a pure mixture, but in cracks and interfaces strange electrochemical things can happen. Are there special "zincs" (that may not actually be zinc) specifically for aluminium alloys ? Aren't these usually welded on? I think we all have some aluminium on-board so more information would be appreciated. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mickeyolaf@... Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:05:18 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Zinc Question Will zinc plate bolted to an aluminum hull lift epoxy hull paint under the zinc as the zinc wastes? The connection of the zinc to the hull is two SS bolts and electricians contact paste. Thanks. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23864|23862|2010-09-01 12:24:24|h|Re: my progect 22' alloy tug|On the Brent swain 36 the skeg takes about 50-60 liters of coolant, I only have a 20hp but there are several 50hps in the same boats and apparently they work even in the tropics. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Leticia" wrote: > > i need some keel kooler sketch & advice to build > them outside of the hull for a 25hp diesel engine, > the void will be 80mmx4mt,y workout a 1.5ft2^per 10hp > that will give a 5'ft2^cappacity hop that is ok, > no to sure on how many fitings i need ,inlet/oulet plus > my be some extra conection. > > thanks carlos > | 23865|23862|2010-09-01 16:34:57|Paul Wilson|Re: my progect 22' alloy tug|You might find the following useful. It has some formulas you can use to calculate areas. http://www.betamarine.co.uk/newsite/downloads/datasheets/inland/Keel.pdf Cheers, Paul On 9/2/2010 4:24 AM, h wrote: > > On the Brent swain 36 the skeg takes about 50-60 liters of coolant, I > only have a 20hp but there are several 50hps in the same boats and > apparently they work even in the tropics. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Leticia" > wrote: > > > > i need some keel kooler sketch & advice to build > > them outside of the hull for a 25hp diesel engine, > > the void will be 80mmx4mt,y workout a 1.5ft2^per 10hp > > that will give a 5'ft2^cappacity hop that is ok, > > no to sure on how many fitings i need ,inlet/oulet plus > > my be some extra conection. > > > > thanks carlos > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3105 - Release Date: 09/01/10 06:34:00 > | 23866|23862|2010-09-01 17:57:02|brentswain38|Re: my progect 22' alloy tug|I wouldn't advise building them outside the hull, when it's far more streamlined and easier to clean if they are welded to the inside of the hull plating. With steel, I find about 1.5 sq feet per ten HP is adequate for surface area. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Leticia" wrote: > > i need some keel kooler sketch & advice to build > them outside of the hull for a 25hp diesel engine, > the void will be 80mmx4mt,y workout a 1.5ft2^per 10hp > that will give a 5'ft2^cappacity hop that is ok, > no to sure on how many fitings i need ,inlet/oulet plus > my be some extra conection. > > thanks carlos > | 23867|23867|2010-09-01 23:01:17|kimdxx|Some photos of my Swain 26 under construction ...|Greetings all ... Construction of my Swain 26 is going very well. I can only work on it on weekends (if it's not raining), so it's going to be a while before it's finished; but good progress is being made so far! :-) I've put up a bit of a blog (with lots of photos) that I'm going to devote to the construction of my Swain 26. As the months roll on I'll update it every couple of weeks with the latest construction photos, etc. Here's the link: http://kimdowl.blogspot.com/ Actually, I would be extremely grateful if some of you guys who have built these boats (particularly Brent) WOULD check it out from time to time, and tell me if you see anything that I'm doing wrong! This is the first steel boat I've built, and I would most appreciate your comments if you notice any obvious blunders I'm making! Otherwise, the photos and commentary might be of some help to any other new builders. Cheers ... Kim. _________________________________| 23868|23867|2010-09-02 08:15:57|raykimbro|Re: Some photos of my Swain 26 under construction ...|Good progress - and a nice writeup to boot - thanks for taking the time to share your project with us! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kimdxx" wrote: > > > Greetings all ... > > Construction of my Swain 26 is going very well. I can only work on it on weekends (if it's not raining), so it's going to be a while before it's finished; but good progress is being made so far! :-) > > I've put up a bit of a blog (with lots of photos) that I'm going to devote to the construction of my Swain 26. As the months roll on I'll update it every couple of weeks with the latest construction photos, etc. > > Here's the link: > > http://kimdowl.blogspot.com/ > > Actually, I would be extremely grateful if some of you guys who have built these boats (particularly Brent) WOULD check it out from time to time, and tell me if you see anything that I'm doing wrong! This is the first steel boat I've built, and I would most appreciate your comments if you notice any obvious blunders I'm making! > > Otherwise, the photos and commentary might be of some help to any other new builders. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > _________________________________ > | 23869|23867|2010-09-02 08:56:35|James Pronk|Re: Some photos of my Swain 26 under construction ...|Great work Kim!!! Very nice blog as well. Makes me want to go out and buy some big steel plates! Thank you, James --- On Wed, 9/1/10, kimdxx wrote: From: kimdxx Subject: [origamiboats] Some photos of my Swain 26 under construction ... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 11:01 PM   Greetings all ... Construction of my Swain 26 is going very well. I can only work on it on weekends (if it's not raining), so it's going to be a while before it's finished; but good progress is being made so far! :-) I've put up a bit of a blog (with lots of photos) that I'm going to devote to the construction of my Swain 26. As the months roll on I'll update it every couple of weeks with the latest construction photos, etc. Here's the link: http://kimdowl.blogspot.com/ Actually, I would be extremely grateful if some of you guys who have built these boats (particularly Brent) WOULD check it out from time to time, and tell me if you see anything that I'm doing wrong! This is the first steel boat I've built, and I would most appreciate your comments if you notice any obvious blunders I'm making! Otherwise, the photos and commentary might be of some help to any other new builders. Cheers ... Kim. _________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23870|23867|2010-09-02 11:02:20|Doug Jackson|Re: Some photos of my Swain 26 under construction ...|Kim Thanks for posting your blog. It's very helpful for us and others following behind you to see. Doug ArgonautJr.com ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 7:56:25 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Some photos of my Swain 26 under construction ... Great work Kim!!! Very nice blog as well. Makes me want to go out and buy some big steel plates! Thank you, James --- On Wed, 9/1/10, kimdxx wrote: From: kimdxx Subject: [origamiboats] Some photos of my Swain 26 under construction ... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 11:01 PM Greetings all ... Construction of my Swain 26 is going very well. I can only work on it on weekends (if it's not raining), so it's going to be a while before it's finished; but good progress is being made so far! :-) I've put up a bit of a blog (with lots of photos) that I'm going to devote to the construction of my Swain 26. As the months roll on I'll update it every couple of weeks with the latest construction photos, etc. Here's the link: http://kimdowl.blogspot.com/ Actually, I would be extremely grateful if some of you guys who have built these boats (particularly Brent) WOULD check it out from time to time, and tell me if you see anything that I'm doing wrong! This is the first steel boat I've built, and I would most appreciate your comments if you notice any obvious blunders I'm making! Otherwise, the photos and commentary might be of some help to any other new builders. Cheers ... Kim. _________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23871|23861|2010-09-03 05:02:32|mauro gonzaga|Re: Zinc Question|I assume you mean "sacrificial anodes" made of zinc: I do not see the reason they could "lift" the paint underneath. However on aluminum is better to use magnesium anodes, more efficient. mauro --- On Wed, 9/1/10, mickeyolaf wrote: From: mickeyolaf Subject: [origamiboats] Zinc Question To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 1:05 AM   Will zinc plate bolted to an aluminum hull lift epoxy hull paint under the zinc as the zinc wastes? The connection of the zinc to the hull is two SS bolts and electricians contact paste. Thanks. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23872|23856|2010-09-03 05:36:26|mauro gonzaga|Re: montreal boat steel work unusual method|Go to: http://www.radford-yacht.com/index.html It explains with pictures how the continuous roll is achieved and how to build a home made rolling equipment. In my opinion a good skill is required. I made my round bilge steel boat with much more difficulties using a press. What is unusual, from the pics you show it is the lenth of the steel plates: difficult to transpost and to handle. it might be achieved by buying standard 30 ft (6 mt) plates, cut to the required width and weld two lengths together before forming, properly grinding and "peening" (hammering) to control distortion. I understand that increasing thickness the framing may be reduced as well (like origami) thus reducing distortion (hungry horse effect). Longitudinal seams apparenly are not welded: when welding longitudinally the plates a certain distortion cannot be avoided, but may be reduced using a cold weld. I mean welding short portions e.g. one inch at a time, changing position and avoiding overheating of the plate. Mauro --- On Wed, 9/1/10, Paul Wilson wrote: > From: Paul Wilson > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] montreal boat steel work unusual method > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 12:02 AM >   It looks to me like the same > method of construction as the original > Joshua with the overlapping plates. They were built by Meta > in France > and was a patented process. That is an amazing amount of > compound curve. > > http://www.anchoryachts.com/strongyachts_strongall.php > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Joshua_(yacht) > > Cheers, Paul > > On 9/1/2010 9:39 AM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 09:25:20PM -0000, deniswig > wrote: > > > hello all > > > I did not have enough brains to upload photos > myself and i asked > > > Ben to do the job - thanks Ben . > > > THIS BOAT IS ON A HILL ROAD BETWEEN MONTREAL AND > ARAZENS SW of > > > Carcassonne SE France . > > > It appears to be formed from 5mm thick steel from > a continious roll > > > which i previously thought to be impossible to do > however seeing is > > > believing . > > > it is approx 40 ft long topsides and i have no > idea as to the design > > > --however it looks excellent for a home build - > maybe somebody knows > > > something -- I merely send these photos in order > that those like me > > > who thought this was impossible from lengths of > steel can think again > > > . > > > I would like to hear from somebody who has > actually built a boat > > > what do you think of this and how did they do it > ??. > > > regards Denis Buggy > > > > It's been uploaded to the Origami photos albums. > > > > TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/29vqt6f > > Full URL: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1373569247/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc > > > > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom > programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3104 - > Release Date: 08/31/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > >     origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > | 23873|23856|2010-09-03 13:15:21|Matt Malone|Re: montreal boat steel work unusual method|I have looked at the Radford site. Impressive. Far more impressive than that blow-hard designer who was in here a while ago, talking trash about the Swain designs, but with no pictures of floating boats on his website. Lots of floating boats on this website. This one has pictures of one of his designs that survived the Sydney-Hobart race, and won their division. If I were going to pay a ton for a boat, and go for a more classical design method, this guy I might look at some more. The Swain designs are still a lot closer to my budget. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: maurogonzaga1940@... Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 02:36:24 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] montreal boat steel work unusual method Go to: http://www.radford-yacht.com/index.html It explains with pictures how the continuous roll is achieved and how to build a home made rolling equipment. In my opinion a good skill is required. I made my round bilge steel boat with much more difficulties using a press. What is unusual, from the pics you show it is the lenth of the steel plates: difficult to transpost and to handle. it might be achieved by buying standard 30 ft (6 mt) plates, cut to the required width and weld two lengths together before forming, properly grinding and "peening" (hammering) to control distortion. I understand that increasing thickness the framing may be reduced as well (like origami) thus reducing distortion (hungry horse effect). Longitudinal seams apparenly are not welded: when welding longitudinally the plates a certain distortion cannot be avoided, but may be reduced using a cold weld. I mean welding short portions e.g. one inch at a time, changing position and avoiding overheating of the plate. Mauro --- On Wed, 9/1/10, Paul Wilson wrote: > From: Paul Wilson > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] montreal boat steel work unusual method > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 12:02 AM > It looks to me like the same > method of construction as the original > Joshua with the overlapping plates. They were built by Meta > in France > and was a patented process. That is an amazing amount of > compound curve. > > http://www.anchoryachts.com/strongyachts_strongall.php > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Joshua_(yacht) > > Cheers, Paul > > On 9/1/2010 9:39 AM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 09:25:20PM -0000, deniswig > wrote: > > > hello all > > > I did not have enough brains to upload photos > myself and i asked > > > Ben to do the job - thanks Ben . > > > THIS BOAT IS ON A HILL ROAD BETWEEN MONTREAL AND > ARAZENS SW of > > > Carcassonne SE France . > > > It appears to be formed from 5mm thick steel from > a continious roll > > > which i previously thought to be impossible to do > however seeing is > > > believing . > > > it is approx 40 ft long topsides and i have no > idea as to the design > > > --however it looks excellent for a home build - > maybe somebody knows > > > something -- I merely send these photos in order > that those like me > > > who thought this was impossible from lengths of > steel can think again > > > . > > > I would like to hear from somebody who has > actually built a boat > > > what do you think of this and how did they do it > ??. > > > regards Denis Buggy > > > > It's been uploaded to the Origami photos albums. > > > > TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/29vqt6f > > Full URL: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1373569247/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc > > > > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom > programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3104 - > Release Date: 08/31/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23874|23856|2010-09-03 16:16:06|Denis Buggy|Re: montreal boat steel work unusual method|---Thanks Mauro . I do some sheet metal work myself and I have used an "" ENGLISH WHEEL "" to do some bodywork and all old coachwork was done by an English wheel -- to make what you call the fender in the US--CANADA area however I could never learn to be consistent and could never make two similar compound curves --they were always miles apart . you need to be able to see in three dimensions to do what is required . I also fit STRETCH PANELS to coaches and buses this is the panel 40 ft long and 4 ft high which is the one piece panel under the windows on a coach which has to be stretched and heated and then we glue it using a silicone from the US called SIKAFLEX to the bus frame -- the sikaflex cures by moisture in 24 hours and we then remove the stretcher which has the panel under about 5 tons of tension and paint . with our equipment and experience this is still a difficult job to do. to handle a 5 mm loose sheet and put a compound curve on it and transport it and fit it is beyond us as you will not get it right first time and several attempts would have to be made to get the fit shown . the welding was lightly done on the inside with no distortion and the bow was faired and ground smooth by somebody who had done this before . before they started they knew they could do it using lengths of steel . they did not make it up as they went along . it just shows i have a bit to learn yet . regards Denis Buggy I From: mauro gonzaga To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] montreal boat steel work unusual method Go to: http://www.radford-yacht.com/index.html It explains with pictures how the continuous roll is achieved and how to build a home made rolling equipment. In my opinion a good skill is required. I made my round bilge steel boat with much more difficulties using a press. What is unusual, from the pics you show it is the lenth of the steel plates: difficult to transpost and to handle. it might be achieved by buying standard 30 ft (6 mt) plates, cut to the required width and weld two lengths together before forming, properly grinding and "peening" (hammering) to control distortion. I understand that increasing thickness the framing may be reduced as well (like origami) thus reducing distortion (hungry horse effect). Longitudinal seams apparenly are not welded: when welding longitudinally the plates a certain distortion cannot be avoided, but may be reduced using a cold weld. I mean welding short portions e.g. one inch at a time, changing position and avoiding overheating of the plate. Mauro --- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23875|23856|2010-09-03 18:04:03|brentswain38|Re: montreal boat steel work unusual method|In Auckland I watched a shipyard foreman build himself a round bilged steel hull. He got a lot of the round by cutting the pieces out with a torch, then heating the centre to allow it to bulge out. He also used a wheel for the harder parts. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Go to: http://www.radford-yacht.com/index.html > It explains with pictures how the continuous roll is achieved and how to build a home made rolling equipment. In my opinion a good skill is required. I made my round bilge steel boat with much more difficulties using a press. What is unusual, from the pics you show it is the lenth of the steel plates: difficult to transpost and to handle. it might be achieved by buying standard 30 ft (6 mt) plates, cut to the required width and weld two lengths together before forming, properly grinding and "peening" (hammering) to control distortion. I understand that increasing thickness the framing may be reduced as well (like origami) thus reducing distortion (hungry horse effect). Longitudinal seams apparenly are not welded: when welding longitudinally the plates a certain distortion cannot be avoided, but may be reduced using a cold weld. I mean welding short portions e.g. one inch at a time, changing position and avoiding overheating of the plate. > Mauro > > --- On Wed, 9/1/10, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > From: Paul Wilson > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] montreal boat steel work unusual method > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 12:02 AM > >   It looks to me like the same > > method of construction as the original > > Joshua with the overlapping plates. They were built by Meta > > in France > > and was a patented process. That is an amazing amount of > > compound curve. > > > > http://www.anchoryachts.com/strongyachts_strongall.php > > > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Joshua_(yacht) > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > On 9/1/2010 9:39 AM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 09:25:20PM -0000, deniswig > > wrote: > > > > hello all > > > > I did not have enough brains to upload photos > > myself and i asked > > > > Ben to do the job - thanks Ben . > > > > THIS BOAT IS ON A HILL ROAD BETWEEN MONTREAL AND > > ARAZENS SW of > > > > Carcassonne SE France . > > > > It appears to be formed from 5mm thick steel from > > a continious roll > > > > which i previously thought to be impossible to do > > however seeing is > > > > believing . > > > > it is approx 40 ft long topsides and i have no > > idea as to the design > > > > --however it looks excellent for a home build - > > maybe somebody knows > > > > something -- I merely send these photos in order > > that those like me > > > > who thought this was impossible from lengths of > > steel can think again > > > > . > > > > I would like to hear from somebody who has > > actually built a boat > > > > what do you think of this and how did they do it > > ??. > > > > regards Denis Buggy > > > > > > It's been uploaded to the Origami photos albums. > > > > > > TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/29vqt6f > > > Full URL: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1373569247/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom > > programming > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3104 - > > Release Date: 08/31/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! > > Groups Links > > > > > >     origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > | 23876|23861|2010-09-03 18:06:35|brentswain38|Re: Zinc Question|As with steel, the only way to guarantee contact is to weld the aluminium straps on, or at least get a tack on one corner. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > I assume you mean "sacrificial anodes" made of zinc: I do not see the reason they could "lift" the paint underneath. However on aluminum is better to use magnesium anodes, more efficient. > mauro > > --- On Wed, 9/1/10, mickeyolaf wrote: > > From: mickeyolaf > Subject: [origamiboats] Zinc Question > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 1:05 AM > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Will zinc plate bolted to an aluminum hull lift epoxy hull paint under the zinc as the zinc wastes? > > > > The connection of the zinc to the hull is two SS bolts and electricians contact paste. > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23877|23847|2010-09-03 18:08:17|brentswain38|Re: keel kooler alloy tug 22'|Having a good vertical rise in your keel cooler lets the warm water rise to the top, and lets you draw the coolest water from the bottom( Like a skeg) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Leticia" wrote: > > hello my name is calos /sydney /australia > new in the forum building alloy tug boat, > i need advice on the constrution of the keel kooler > if posible drawing or sketch for a 30 AP diesel engine. > the idea is to make along the keel,i will like to see > the metodo to build them,my idea is to maiking > 6'x4"flat bar that will give a5.5ft2^ kooler capasity, > any advice will be grate > cheers carlos > | 23878|23851|2010-09-03 18:13:16|brentswain38|Re: real origami boat|I sure didn't get much backup in that debate. Thought if I helped people, out they would do the same for me. Silly me! They scattered like pigeons in a park. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 09:28:02PM -0000, h wrote: > > http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/08/27/foldable.origami.superyacht/#fbid=btMu4_P9x7P&wom=false > > > > Here you go brent real origami boats, I guess those folks on the boat > > design forums were right all along... > > You mean those guys were predicting the future when they said "origami > boats are ugly"? Wow, I'm impressed. > > Are you sure it's not made by the Teledildonics Corporation? :) > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23879|23851|2010-09-03 19:36:20|leticia bairo|Re: real origami boat|--- On Sat, 4/9/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: real origami boat To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, 4 September, 2010, 8:13 AM   I sure didn't get much backup in that debate. Thought if I helped people, out they would do the same for me. Silly me! They scattered like pigeons in a park. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 09:28:02PM -0000, h wrote: > > http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/08/27/foldable.origami.superyacht/#fbid=btMu4_P9x7P&wom=false > > > > Here you go brent real origami boats, I guess those folks on the boat > > design forums were right all along... > > You mean those guys were predicting the future when they said "origami > boats are ugly"? Wow, I'm impressed. > > Are you sure it's not made by the Teledildonics Corporation? :) > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23880|23851|2010-09-03 19:49:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: real origami boat|> --- On Sat, 4/9/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > I sure didn't get much backup in that debate. Thought if I helped > people, out they would do the same for me. Silly me! They scattered > like pigeons in a park. What debate was that? I hadn't realized there had been one. The "ugly origami boat" that Haidan and I were talking about is certainly not one of yours, though - unless you're a secret crazy Italian designer. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23881|23881|2010-09-03 19:55:32|leticia bairo|Re: keel kooler  alloy tug 22'|[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23882|23856|2010-09-04 07:24:46|mauro gonzaga|Re: montreal boat steel work unusual method|It is very, very difficult to control shaping by heating. When you heat the plate the steel expands and bulges, but the cold part aroung the heated holds on a certain amount. When you cool down the steel shrinks and the bulge disappear and all the steel around comes in tension. it is a good method to straighten (flat) a plate which has bulges. If you hammer the hot bulge the steel gets out easy but when it cools down it shinks again and you do not know which will the shape after cooling. In few words, shaping thin plate using heat could be done by very skilled people. Heats (heating red and cooling with water) are commonly used in steel working to strighten the plate or straighten and bend profiles. Mauro --- On Sat, 9/4/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: montreal boat steel work unusual method To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 4, 2010, 12:03 AM   In Auckland I watched a shipyard foreman build himself a round bilged steel hull. He got a lot of the round by cutting the pieces out with a torch, then heating the centre to allow it to bulge out. He also used a wheel for the harder parts. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Go to: http://www.radford-yacht.com/index.html > It explains with pictures how the continuous roll is achieved and how to build a home made rolling equipment. In my opinion a good skill is required. I made my round bilge steel boat with much more difficulties using a press. What is unusual, from the pics you show it is the lenth of the steel plates: difficult to transpost and to handle. it might be achieved by buying standard 30 ft (6 mt) plates, cut to the required width and weld two lengths together before forming, properly grinding and "peening" (hammering) to control distortion. I understand that increasing thickness the framing may be reduced as well (like origami) thus reducing distortion (hungry horse effect). Longitudinal seams apparenly are not welded: when welding longitudinally the plates a certain distortion cannot be avoided, but may be reduced using a cold weld. I mean welding short portions e.g. one inch at a time, changing position and avoiding overheating of the plate. > Mauro > > --- On Wed, 9/1/10, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > From: Paul Wilson > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] montreal boat steel work unusual method > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 12:02 AM > >   It looks to me like the same > > method of construction as the original > > Joshua with the overlapping plates. They were built by Meta > > in France > > and was a patented process. That is an amazing amount of > > compound curve. > > > > http://www.anchoryachts.com/strongyachts_strongall.php > > > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Joshua_(yacht) > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > On 9/1/2010 9:39 AM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 09:25:20PM -0000, deniswig > > wrote: > > > > hello all > > > > I did not have enough brains to upload photos > > myself and i asked > > > > Ben to do the job - thanks Ben . > > > > THIS BOAT IS ON A HILL ROAD BETWEEN MONTREAL AND > > ARAZENS SW of > > > > Carcassonne SE France . > > > > It appears to be formed from 5mm thick steel from > > a continious roll > > > > which i previously thought to be impossible to do > > however seeing is > > > > believing . > > > > it is approx 40 ft long topsides and i have no > > idea as to the design > > > > --however it looks excellent for a home build - > > maybe somebody knows > > > > something -- I merely send these photos in order > > that those like me > > > > who thought this was impossible from lengths of > > steel can think again > > > > . > > > > I would like to hear from somebody who has > > actually built a boat > > > > what do you think of this and how did they do it > > ??. > > > > regards Denis Buggy > > > > > > It's been uploaded to the Origami photos albums. > > > > > > TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/29vqt6f > > > Full URL: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1373569247/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom > > programming > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3104 - > > Release Date: 08/31/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! > > Groups Links > > > > > >     origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23884|23851|2010-09-05 17:46:54|brentswain38|Re: real origami boat|Sorry Ben. I thought you were referring to another debate. Apologies. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > --- On Sat, 4/9/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > I sure didn't get much backup in that debate. Thought if I helped > > people, out they would do the same for me. Silly me! They scattered > > like pigeons in a park. > > What debate was that? I hadn't realized there had been one. > > The "ugly origami boat" that Haidan and I were talking about is > certainly not one of yours, though - unless you're a secret crazy > Italian designer. :) > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23885|23851|2010-09-05 18:23:26|Ben Okopnik|Re: real origami boat|On Sun, Sep 05, 2010 at 09:46:51PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Sorry Ben. I thought you were referring to another debate. > Apologies. No worries, Brent. That's why I asked. If you need my help, all you've got to do is say so; you've helped me out, and I owe you one. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23886|23851|2010-09-06 12:26:02|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: real origami boat|Brent,   Ben & I might have had our differences, but in this he is absolutely correct. On both counts.   You have been extremely generous with your time, experince, efforts .   No doubt we are not the only ones who appreciate what you do, not by a long shot.   He's also right......all's you have to do is ask mate. We all owe you one.   Cheers, Shane       　 No worries, Brent. That's why I asked. If you need my help, all you've got to do is say so; you've helped me out, and I owe you one. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING 　 　Posted by: "brentswain38" Sun Sep 5, 2010 2:46 pm (PDT) origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > --- On Sat, 4/9/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > I sure didn't get much backup in that debate. Thought if I helped > > people, out they would do the same for me. Silly me! They scattered > > like pigeons in a park. > > What debate was that? I hadn't realized there had been one. > > The "ugly origami boat" that Haidan and I were talking about is > certainly not one of yours, though - unless you're a secret crazy > Italian designer. :) > > Sorry Ben. I thought you were referring to another debate. Apologies. Brent --- In brentswain38@... HYPERLINK "http://profiles.yahoo.com/brentswain38"brentswain38 Re: real origami boat| 23887|23887|2010-09-07 09:58:02|recovery711|boatbuilding is art|This driftboat is another example for using the origami-method - in fact this is a more artistic approach than any other construction method and results in a very nice sheerline. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23888|23887|2010-09-07 11:43:37|Matt Malone|Re: boatbuilding is art|I might be mistaken, but that looks like frameless wood construction, in panels. Humm. What is orgami. Orgami in paper is defined as folds only, no cuts or glue. So Brent's orgami depends on cutting darts, like women's dresses, and sowing them / welding them together to make curves. Tailored boats does not sound nearly as cool as orgami boats, but this drift boat is not even cutting darts it does not look like orgami to me. My 0.02. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: recovery711@... Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 08:37:52 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] boatbuilding is art This driftboat is another example for using the origami-method - in fact this is a more artistic approach than any other construction method and results in a very nice sheerline. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23889|23887|2010-09-07 12:22:26|Aaron Williams|Re: boatbuilding is art|I thought it looked like a regular stich and glue plywood drift boat. It is a nice looking boat though. Aaron ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 7:42:14 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] boatbuilding is art   I might be mistaken, but that looks like frameless wood construction, in panels. Humm. What is orgami. Orgami in paper is defined as folds only, no cuts or glue. So Brent's orgami depends on cutting darts, like women's dresses, and sowing them / welding them together to make curves. Tailored boats does not sound nearly as cool as orgami boats, but this drift boat is not even cutting darts it does not look like orgami to me. My 0.02. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: recovery711@... Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 08:37:52 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] boatbuilding is art This driftboat is another example for using the origami-method - in fact this is a more artistic approach than any other construction method and results in a very nice sheerline. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23890|23887|2010-09-07 15:16:45|brentswain38|Re: boatbuilding is art|Stitch and glue was the original origami boat. We just expanded it to include conic ends. Looks good. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I might be mistaken, but that looks like frameless wood construction, in panels. Humm. What is orgami. Orgami in paper is defined as folds only, no cuts or glue. So Brent's orgami depends on cutting darts, like women's dresses, and sowing them / welding them together to make curves. Tailored boats does not sound nearly as cool as orgami boats, but this drift boat is not even cutting darts it does not look like orgami to me. My 0.02. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: recovery711@... > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 08:37:52 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] boatbuilding is art > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This driftboat is another > > example for using the origami-method - in fact this is a more artistic > > approach than any other construction method and results in a very nice > > sheerline. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23891|23891|2010-09-07 15:21:57|brentswain38|Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|A friend was just told that the wheel balancing shops are switching to steel. Too bad, as wheel weights have been a good source of lead. I can understand why they prefer steel. If you need lead , best track them down before the switch is complete, altho we may already be too late.| 23892|23891|2010-09-07 15:44:13|Paul Wilson|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|Sounds dangerous to me.....if you hit a lead weight laying on the road with a car tire it just bends and crushes. A steel weight is a projectile, a puncture hazard and will need to be larger as well. Are they worried about lead poisoning if you touch your tire? Who thinks of these things? Paul On 9/8/2010 7:21 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > > A friend was just told that the wheel balancing shops are switching to > steel. Too bad, as wheel weights have been a good source of lead. I > can understand why they prefer steel. If you need lead , best track > them down before the switch is complete, altho we may already be too late. > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3118 - Release Date: 09/07/10 06:34:00 > | 23893|23891|2010-09-07 16:14:15|Doug Jackson|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|From the reading I've done, a couple of things are driving this. The environmental concern is that weights dropped on the road surface are ground into small pieces and enter the water shed were like small fishing weights are ingested by wading birds and enter the food chain. The other issue is the lead supply. There are few if any mines that produce lead as their primary ore so production of lead is tied to other metals which causes supply fluctuations that are not a response to the demand for lead at a time when more new cars, primarily in India and China are entering the market with lead batteries that are new production and not recycled materials. So the increase in lead prices is also driving tire marts to switch to steel. Most mom and pop tire stores currently reuse wheel weights in opposition to US law. This unfortunately causes more lost weights because the steel clip is not designed to be reused and so the weight is lost onto the road surface at a much higher rate than new weights. With the move to steel weights the cost drop makes it uneconomical for stores to sort and reuse weights and so losses and related damage should drop. Everybody goes home happy, except the folks building sailboats. But we already have our 30,000 pounds. :) Doug ArgonautJr.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 2:44:16 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights. Sounds dangerous to me.....if you hit a lead weight laying on the road with a car tire it just bends and crushes. A steel weight is a projectile, a puncture hazard and will need to be larger as well. Are they worried about lead poisoning if you touch your tire? Who thinks of these things? Paul On 9/8/2010 7:21 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > > A friend was just told that the wheel balancing shops are switching to > steel. Too bad, as wheel weights have been a good source of lead. I > can understand why they prefer steel. If you need lead , best track > them down before the switch is complete, altho we may already be too late. > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3118 - Release Date: 09/07/10 >06:34:00 > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 23894|23891|2010-09-07 16:36:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|On Wed, Sep 08, 2010 at 07:44:16AM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > Sounds dangerous to me.....if you hit a lead weight laying on the road > with a car tire it just bends and crushes. A steel weight is a > projectile, a puncture hazard and will need to be larger as well. It's called an "external cost" in the world of security design. Means they won't be the ones having those problems, and there's not enough of a link for you to sue them. On the other hand, "lead poisoning" is in all the newspapers, doctors' offices, etc. - so they'll be less exposed to lawsuits by making the change. > Are > they worried about lead poisoning if you touch your tire? No, they're worried about being sued and losing because "everybody knows" that lead kills you at a hundred paces just from you looking at it. Smart move on their part, given that even the ambulance-chasing lawyers these days are getting pretty panicked about the state of the economy. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23895|23891|2010-09-07 17:12:15|David Frantz|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|Lead kills at a hundred yards if your aim is good! Sorry had to point that out. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Sep 7, 2010, at 4:34 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Wed, Sep 08, 2010 at 07:44:16AM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: >> Sounds dangerous to me.....if you hit a lead weight laying on the road >> with a car tire it just bends and crushes. A steel weight is a >> projectile, a puncture hazard and will need to be larger as well. > > It's called an "external cost" in the world of security design. Means > they won't be the ones having those problems, and there's not enough of > a link for you to sue them. On the other hand, "lead poisoning" is in > all the newspapers, doctors' offices, etc. - so they'll be less exposed > to lawsuits by making the change. > >> Are >> they worried about lead poisoning if you touch your tire? > > No, they're worried about being sued and losing because "everybody > knows" that lead kills you at a hundred paces just from you looking at > it. Smart move on their part, given that even the ambulance-chasing > lawyers these days are getting pretty panicked about the state of the > economy. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23896|23891|2010-09-07 17:26:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|On Tue, Sep 07, 2010 at 05:05:52PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > Lead kills at a hundred yards if your aim is good! > > Sorry had to point that out. As they say, guns don't kill people... it's that .308-caliber 168-grain semi-jacketed boat-tail bullet at 2700fps that does the job. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23897|23891|2010-09-07 23:01:03|Darren Bos|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|In a similar example, I recently learned that many electronic components now have legs made of steel rather than copper. Not so good in a marine environment, but apparently it saves money. Darren At 12:21 PM 07/09/2010, you wrote: > > >A friend was just told that the wheel balancing >shops are switching to steel. Too bad, as wheel >weights have been a good source of lead. I can >understand why they prefer steel. If you need >lead , best track them down before the switch is >complete, altho we may already be too late. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23898|23891|2010-09-07 23:13:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|On Tue, Sep 07, 2010 at 08:00:49PM -0700, Darren Bos wrote: > In a similar example, I recently learned that > many electronic components now have legs made of > steel rather than copper. Not so good in a > marine environment, but apparently it saves money. I seriously doubt that story. Rosin-core solder, which is what's used for electronic components, won't stick to steel. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23899|23887|2010-09-08 06:51:22|recovery711|Re: boatbuilding is art|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I thought it looked like a regular stich and glue plywood drift boat. It is a > nice looking boat though. > > Aaron > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 7:42:14 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] boatbuilding is art > >  > > > I might be mistaken, but that looks like frameless wood construction, in panels. > Humm. What is orgami. Orgami in paper is defined as folds only, no cuts or glue. > So Brent's orgami depends on cutting darts, like women's dresses, and sowing > them / welding them together to make curves. Tailored boats does not sound > nearly as cool as orgami boats, but this drift boat is not even cutting darts it > does not look like orgami to me. My 0.02. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: recovery711@... > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 08:37:52 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] boatbuilding is art > > This driftboat is another > > example for using the origami-method - in fact this is a more artistic > > approach than any other construction method and results in a very nice > > sheerline. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Well, it might be true that the hull of this boat is not 100% origami method - but neither it is stitch+glue because all important junctions rely on wooden stringers - which were installed after defining the shape - are screwed and glued. Your steel boats look beautiful, and I wonder if these hulls could be built from plywood, in a similar manner, using cold molding after developing the shape. Unfortunately I am not familiar with steel, welding and insulating this material, but I think there is a lot to learn from your projects. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23900|23887|2010-09-08 13:11:48|Aaron Williams|Re: boatbuilding is art|Brents book has a dingy design in it. ________________________________ From: recovery711 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 2:51:20 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: boatbuilding is art   --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I thought it looked like a regular stich and glue plywood drift boat. It is a > nice looking boat though. > > Aaron > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Matt Malone m_j_malone@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 7:42:14 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] boatbuilding is art > >  > > > I might be mistaken, but that looks like frameless wood construction, in panels. > Humm. What is orgami. Orgami in paper is defined as folds only, no cuts or glue. > So Brent's orgami depends on cutting darts, like women's dresses, and sowing > them / welding them together to make curves. Tailored boats does not sound > nearly as cool as orgami boats, but this drift boat is not even cutting darts it > does not look like orgami to me. My 0.02. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: recovery711@... > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 08:37:52 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] boatbuilding is art > > This driftboat is another > > example for using the origami-method - in fact this is a more artistic > > approach than any other construction method and results in a very nice > > sheerline. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Well, it might be true that the hull of this boat is not 100% origami method - but neither it is stitch+glue because all important junctions rely on wooden stringers - which were installed after defining the shape - are screwed and glued. Your steel boats look beautiful, and I wonder if these hulls could be built from plywood, in a similar manner, using cold molding after developing the shape. Unfortunately I am not familiar with steel, welding and insulating this material, but I think there is a lot to learn from your projects. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] B [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23901|19500|2010-09-08 18:32:45|brentswain38|Alternator welder|I just found another use for the alternator welder. When you use it as a power supply for your 120 volt tools, it makes all your tools, including the angle grinder, variable speed. When you want to sharpen a drill or chisle, etc, without burning it, with the grinder, you slow the rpm down to an idle, and it runs the grinder as slow as you want to.| 23902|19500|2010-09-08 21:26:21|Matt Malone|Re: Alternator welder|Brent, when one puts load on an electrical motor running at reduced voltage, it can draw a lot more current, and may overheat. Sharpening a drill or chisel, I doubt there is a problem. Dimming incandescent lights, or throttling electric heaters (everything from toasters, to soldering irons) will always work by reducing the alternator speed. However, I would not try to drive wood screws at low speed with a single-speed drill working at reduced voltage. Either it will not work at all -- the drill will just stop turning -- or the drill motor may overheat. Also, anything with a switching power supply, like computers, laptop power bricks and some rechargeable tool power units could be damaged if they happen to be plugged at the same time that one reduces speed to something else. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 22:32:40 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Alternator welder I just found another use for the alternator welder. When you use it as a power supply for your 120 volt tools, it makes all your tools, including the angle grinder, variable speed. When you want to sharpen a drill or chisle, etc, without burning it, with the grinder, you slow the rpm down to an idle, and it runs the grinder as slow as you want to. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23903|23891|2010-09-09 00:49:13|Darren Bos|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|Yes, but but rosin-core solder will stick to plated (tin or something more exotic) steel/iron. My googling turned up relatively little information, although I found one IC leg manufacturer that offered the following "iron, carbon steel, stainless steel, brass, copper, alloy steel, aluminum, cold rolled steel with various plating Standard/ specification" My original source on the info was an article in Practical Boat Owner about making an LED deck light, they warned of the iron and recommended bedding the components in resin. Frankly, I'd be shocked if the IC industry didn't try and substitute cheaper materials. It is the perfect example of an industry with large volumes, where saving a fraction of a cent per item helps keep the shareholders happy. Darren At 08:04 PM 07/09/2010, you wrote: > > >On Tue, Sep 07, 2010 at 08:00:49PM -0700, Darren Bos wrote: > > In a similar example, I recently learned that > > many electronic components now have legs made of > > steel rather than copper. Not so good in a > > marine environment, but apparently it saves money. > >I seriously doubt that story. Rosin-core solder, which is what's used >for electronic components, won't stick to steel. > >-- >OKOPNIK CONSULTING >Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business >Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming >443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23904|23891|2010-09-09 01:31:10|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|On Wed, Sep 08, 2010 at 09:49:01PM -0700, Darren Bos wrote: > Yes, but but rosin-core solder will stick to > plated (tin or something more exotic) > steel/iron. Even if you could get the plating to not peel off under the constant thermal stresses, those components would be useless for anything but DC circuits; see the definition of "skin effect" for the reason. In addition, steel is resistive; as a result, there would be parasitic resistance at every single component. Worse yet, you wouldn't be able to calculate it. I'm sorry, but this is sounding like an apocryphal tale made up of bad and missing information. > My googling turned up relatively > little information, although I found one IC leg > manufacturer that offered the following "iron, > carbon steel, stainless steel, brass, copper, > alloy steel, aluminum, cold rolled steel with > various plating Standard/ specification" Some specialty socketed ICs - i.e., ones that don't require soldering, and are mechanically clamped in position (e.g., CPUs) can use other materials, of course. Not soldered components, though - which is 99.9% of the electronics world. > Frankly, I'd be > shocked if the IC industry didn't try and > substitute cheaper materials. It is the perfect > example of an industry with large volumes, where > saving a fraction of a cent per item helps keep the shareholders happy. Sure, economies of scale matter a lot. The thing about electronic components, though, is that they've pretty well reached near-perfection: the typical 1/8W resistor is made exactly the same way today as it was 20 years ago (35 years ago, the case was slightly different.) Ditto for ceramic, tantalum, or electrolytic capacitors. Ditto inductors. The biggest problem here is that messing about with basic component design and finding out that it fails a year later because of X (some unpredictable factor) would *really* suck due to those exact same factors of scale: if you've sold 5 million large-screen TVs, and they *all* start failing because you tried to save a tenth of a cent on your resistors, you're completely screwed. This would be kinda like saying "sure, the FDA hasn't approved this new food I've just invented, but try it - it's really tasty!" You're not likely to get too many takers. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23905|23891|2010-09-09 08:30:50|scott|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|We probably won't see radical advances in the electrical and electronic industries till someone comes up with a true, cost effective, room temperature or high temperature super conductor material. As Ben says it is a pretty well developed industry that seems to only be making incremental advances in recent history. Though I do think that in electronics there is some potential for some cool stuff due to the continually shrinking size of circuits. We are close a manufacturing capability with the circuits getting down to where you start to see weird effects to to how small they are.. I expect we will start seeing new technology that takes advantage of some of these quantum effects for new coolness. scott > > Sure, economies of scale matter a lot. The thing about electronic > components, though, is that they've pretty well reached near-perfection: > the typical 1/8W resistor is made exactly the same way today as it was > 20 years ago (35 years ago, the case was slightly different.) Ditto for > ceramic, tantalum, or electrolytic capacitors. Ditto inductors. The > biggest problem here is that messing about with basic component design > and finding out that it fails a year later because of X (some > unpredictable factor) would *really* suck due to those exact same > factors of scale: if you've sold 5 million large-screen TVs, and they > *all* start failing because you tried to save a tenth of a cent on your > resistors, you're completely screwed. > > This would be kinda like saying "sure, the FDA hasn't approved this new > food I've just invented, but try it - it's really tasty!" You're not > likely to get too many takers. :) > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23906|23891|2010-09-09 08:56:26|David Frantz|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|Resistors are made the same way as every but I'd argue that capacitor technology has changed significantly and is changing rapidly. Obviously the basic idea is the same but how that charge is stored and gets in and out of the cap is very different these days. Nano yechnology, new materials and processes have resulted in much higher storage densities. Resistors on the otherhand are the same old things. What I find truely fascinating is what is happening in the optics world. There is a paper flosting around right now where somebody studied the formation of waves in a fiber opitic and implied that the findings apply to rogue waves at sea. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Sep 9, 2010, at 8:30 AM, scott wrote: > We probably won't see radical advances in the electrical and electronic industries till someone comes up with a true, cost effective, room temperature or high temperature super conductor material. As Ben says it is a pretty well developed industry that seems to only be making incremental advances in recent history. Though I do think that in electronics there is some potential for some cool stuff due to the continually shrinking size of circuits. We are close a manufacturing capability with the circuits getting down to where you start to see weird effects to to how small they are.. I expect we will start seeing new technology that takes advantage of some of these quantum effects for new coolness. > scott > > >> >> Sure, economies of scale matter a lot. The thing about electronic >> components, though, is that they've pretty well reached near-perfection: >> the typical 1/8W resistor is made exactly the same way today as it was >> 20 years ago (35 years ago, the case was slightly different.) Ditto for >> ceramic, tantalum, or electrolytic capacitors. Ditto inductors. The >> biggest problem here is that messing about with basic component design >> and finding out that it fails a year later because of X (some >> unpredictable factor) would *really* suck due to those exact same >> factors of scale: if you've sold 5 million large-screen TVs, and they >> *all* start failing because you tried to save a tenth of a cent on your >> resistors, you're completely screwed. >> >> This would be kinda like saying "sure, the FDA hasn't approved this new >> food I've just invented, but try it - it's really tasty!" You're not >> likely to get too many takers. :) >> >> >> -- >> OKOPNIK CONSULTING >> Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business >> Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming >> 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23907|23891|2010-09-09 09:42:14|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 08:55:25AM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > Resistors are made the same way as every but I'd argue that capacitor > technology has changed significantly and is changing rapidly. > Obviously the basic idea is the same but how that charge is stored and > gets in and out of the cap is very different these days. Nano > yechnology, new materials and processes have resulted in much higher > storage densities. You've confused two unrelated terms, I'm afraid. Just because the same word is being used doesn't mean that we're talking about the same thing. You can't go to a store and buy a nanotech capacitor (and if you could, it would be useless for the purpose of constructing an electronic circuit); the only capacitors you can buy are the ones I've been talking about. What you're talking about is large-scale energy storage, not circuit components. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23908|23908|2010-09-09 13:56:52|h|engine in nanaimo|http://nanaimo.en.craigslist.ca/boa/1942926655.html 32hp kabota 1850 seems worth a look if any of you are looking for an engine| 23909|23908|2010-09-09 15:33:59|brentswain38|Re: engine in nanaimo|Kubotas are excellent engines. You would want to make sure that tranny is at least a 100, preferably a 150 hurth. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "h" wrote: > > http://nanaimo.en.craigslist.ca/boa/1942926655.html > > 32hp kabota 1850 seems worth a look if any of you are looking for an engine > | 23910|23910|2010-09-09 17:22:14|ckhaun@juno.com|(no subject)|Ben, Remember that some of these companies will see the 5 million failed devices as potential new customers. As long as the components last just long enough that there are no warranty claims it is to the shareholders benefit. Sad as this may seem. I've been hearing stories recently about problems with capacitors in many new electronic products. Some think that the problem is purposely manufactured. I don't know what to believe. ??????????? ____________________________________________________________ Mortgage Rates Hit 3.25% If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4c894ffb6bc68b2c191st06vuc| 23911|23910|2010-09-09 17:58:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: |On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 09:21:22PM +0000, ckhaun@... wrote: > Ben, > > Remember that some of these companies will see the 5 million failed > devices as potential new customers. As long as the components last > just long enough that there are no warranty claims it is to the > shareholders benefit. Sad as this may seem. The problem with component failure is that it would be _un_planned - i.e., either random or cumulative, meaning that the companies would be paying for a lot of the failures. The current "bathtub curve" kills off modern electronics 5-10 years down the road, anyway, and that's more-or- less controllable - hence, the 3-year warranties. (I've helped a friend replace a tube in his 1925 (!) radio receiver once; it's been in the family since it was new, and in his 40+ years of owning it, it had never failed before. No, electronics are not inherently unreliable.) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23912|23891|2010-09-10 03:58:28|Darren Bos|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|Your arguments make a lot of sense Ben. I wish things were manufactured with that kind of thinking in mind. Unfortunately the world is replete with examples to the contrary. In this case I hope you are right, but where I can I'll be keeping an eye on my circuit boards. Like your FDA food example, who'd of thought they would be stupid enough to add melamine to baby formula........ Darren At 10:30 PM 08/09/2010, you wrote: > > >On Wed, Sep 08, 2010 at 09:49:01PM -0700, Darren Bos wrote: > > Yes, but but rosin-core solder will stick to > > plated (tin or something more exotic) > > steel/iron. > >Even if you could get the plating to not peel off under the constant >thermal stresses, those components would be useless for anything but DC >circuits; see the definition of "skin effect" for the reason. In >addition, steel is resistive; as a result, there would be parasitic >resistance at every single component. Worse yet, you wouldn't be able to >calculate it. I'm sorry, but this is sounding like an apocryphal tale >made up of bad and missing information. > > > My googling turned up relatively > > little information, although I found one IC leg > > manufacturer that offered the following "iron, > > carbon steel, stainless steel, brass, copper, > > alloy steel, aluminum, cold rolled steel with > > various plating Standard/ specification" > >Some specialty socketed ICs - i.e., ones that don't require soldering, >and are mechanically clamped in position (e.g., CPUs) can use other >materials, of course. Not soldered components, though - which is 99.9% >of the electronics world. > > > Frankly, I'd be > > shocked if the IC industry didn't try and > > substitute cheaper materials. It is the perfect > > example of an industry with large volumes, where > > saving a fraction of a cent per item helps keep the shareholders happy. > >Sure, economies of scale matter a lot. The thing about electronic >components, though, is that they've pretty well reached near-perfection: >the typical 1/8W resistor is made exactly the same way today as it was >20 years ago (35 years ago, the case was slightly different.) Ditto for >ceramic, tantalum, or electrolytic capacitors. Ditto inductors. The >biggest problem here is that messing about with basic component design >and finding out that it fails a year later because of X (some >unpredictable factor) would *really* suck due to those exact same >factors of scale: if you've sold 5 million large-screen TVs, and they >*all* start failing because you tried to save a tenth of a cent on your >resistors, you're completely screwed. > >This would be kinda like saying "sure, the FDA hasn't approved this new >food I've just invented, but try it - it's really tasty!" You're not >likely to get too many takers. :) > >-- >OKOPNIK CONSULTING >Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business >Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming >443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23913|23908|2010-09-10 11:54:49|h|Re: engine in nanaimo|I also ran into an old 55hp ford engine at Abernathy & Gaudin in brentwood bay they were trying to get rid of for a case of beer, apparently in ran when they took it out, had a nice big transmission on it, didn't have a vehicle to grab it with. So if any one wants a potentially working 55hp engine and transmission for free it's there in brentwood bay. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Kubotas are excellent engines. You would want to make sure that tranny is at least a 100, preferably a 150 hurth. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "h" wrote: > > > > http://nanaimo.en.craigslist.ca/boa/1942926655.html > > > > 32hp kabota 1850 seems worth a look if any of you are looking for an engine > > > | 23914|23914|2010-09-10 13:31:51|coreyzzzz2000|Seaworthiness an d righting ability|So I am reading John Vigor's "The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat" and he advocates that the number one indicator of seaworthiness is the ability of the boat to right itself from 180 degrees (upside down)after being hit by a rogue wave. In a chapter titled "Test Your Boat" the author gives a self test of sorts to determine how well prepared your boat is to tackle an ocean crossing. Interestingly a steel hull gets the highest marks. Using my limited knowledge from Brent's book and Alex's excellent video I modeled a Brent boat as I envision building and it scored an excellent 80 or so... anything under 100 is considered excellent. (12 points of that 80 is due to my lack of experience and skills.) One bit that the author does not cover is twin keels, which is my preference in a cruiser. (My current wood boat is a twin keeler.) The book is an excellent read if only to get you thinking about worst case scenarios and how your boat and its components would handle them. A couple of questions I struggled with: Number of built in bulkheads - The more the better according to Vigor. How does this differ between steel boats and wood/glass boats? Is the cockpit self draining? (Not sure how Brent's plans handle this- or is it something I need to put in if I want it?) Is there a bridge deck to stop water flowing into the cabin below in case the cockpit fills with water? (My current boat has a bridge deck that doubles as a flotation chamber; likely because the boat is too small to accommodate cockpit drains. My biggest question is will a steel, twin keeled, origami design right itself from a 180 degree knockdown?| 23915|23914|2010-09-10 13:54:05|Carl Anderson|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|An answer to some of your questions would be that with a small (40 foot or less) steel boat, bulkheads may not add much to the overall hull stiffness so are not a big concern. That would be different if you put in a true watertight bulkhead somewhere but Brent's design doesn't call for any. The cockpit is self draining through 2 scuppers in the transom (make them large and the cockpit will drain very fast). There is no bridge deck, per se, but the design has the companionway opening above the cockpit seat so if the cockpit fills it should all go out the scuppers. As for the last question, I do not really know of anyone that has been knocked down to 180 (completely inverted) in a Brent boat. Hope that this helps some. Carl sv-mom.com ps, we really love our 36' Brent boat!! On 9/10/2010 11:31 AM, coreyzzzz2000 wrote: > > > So I am reading John Vigor's "The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat" and he > advocates that the number one indicator of seaworthiness is the ability > of the boat to right itself from 180 degrees (upside down)after being > hit by a rogue wave. > > In a chapter titled "Test Your Boat" the author gives a self test of > sorts to determine how well prepared your boat is to tackle an ocean > crossing. Interestingly a steel hull gets the highest marks. Using my > limited knowledge from Brent's book and Alex's excellent video I modeled > a Brent boat as I envision building and it scored an excellent 80 or > so... anything under 100 is considered excellent. (12 points of that 80 > is due to my lack of experience and skills.) > > One bit that the author does not cover is twin keels, which is my > preference in a cruiser. (My current wood boat is a twin keeler.) The > book is an excellent read if only to get you thinking about worst case > scenarios and how your boat and its components would handle them. > > A couple of questions I struggled with: > > Number of built in bulkheads - The more the better according to Vigor. > How does this differ between steel boats and wood/glass boats? > > Is the cockpit self draining? (Not sure how Brent's plans handle this- > or is it something I need to put in if I want it?) > > Is there a bridge deck to stop water flowing into the cabin below in > case the cockpit fills with water? (My current boat has a bridge deck > that doubles as a flotation chamber; likely because the boat is too > small to accommodate cockpit drains. > > My biggest question is will a steel, twin keeled, origami design right > itself from a 180 degree knockdown? > > | 23916|23914|2010-09-10 14:15:06|CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|Maybe someone knows, but I cannot see why it would not. As long as your ballast does not come loose, I think it would right itself just fine. Probably, most sailboats would right themselves, certainly a vast nr of factory built plastic boats have done so innumerable times. The brent boat is far stiffer and stronget than any factory plastic boat on the market. However, if you ever do get 180 down, you will have a huge number of problems. Stuff will come loose, all over the place, and you are likely to have all sorts of unpleasant liguids mixed with your food, clothes, some interior bits etc. Think of some glass, broken, with maybe a loose gas can or two, probably mixed with your trash bags contents, clothes, and everything in your lockers... Besides, for you to get knocked down in a brent boat, you probably need to be beam on to the sea, or lose the mast. I have sailed in some heavy weather (upto F9 gusting 10) and I cannot think of anything I would rather be in than a brent boat in a hurricane (except an FPB). Preferable really far from shore. I would not have any concerns about the boat. Brent (and Steve Dashew) are some of the few designers I know of who also walk the walk, and both have, in my opinion, contributed enormously to the art in general. Both also are helpful to all people (not just clients) and enjoy an excellent well deserved rep. Their boats do represent the 2 extreme ends of the financial spectrum. > > > > Is there a bridge deck to stop water flowing into the cabin below in > > case the cockpit fills with water? (My current boat has a bridge deck > > that doubles as a flotation chamber; likely because the boat is too > > small to accommodate cockpit drains. > > > > My biggest question is will a steel, twin keeled, origami design right > > itself from a 180 degree knockdown? > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23917|23910|2010-09-10 16:42:43|brentswain38|Re: |Electronics have a problem called"Infant deatht syndrome" If a component lasts more that a certain number of hours, as they have no moving parts, theoretically it can last forever. For that reason, it's a good idea to get at least 100 hours on any electronics quickly, by leaving it running 24-7, before scaling back it's use, while it is under warantee. When Hinckley built the Bermuda 40's they would buy all the electronics, and leave them running the whole time they were building the boat. If a component burnt out, they would simply replace that component. By the time the boat was finished, they would have enough hours on all the electronics to have exposed any flaws. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 09:21:22PM +0000, ckhaun@... wrote: > > Ben, > > > > Remember that some of these companies will see the 5 million failed > > devices as potential new customers. As long as the components last > > just long enough that there are no warranty claims it is to the > > shareholders benefit. Sad as this may seem. > > The problem with component failure is that it would be _un_planned - > i.e., either random or cumulative, meaning that the companies would be > paying for a lot of the failures. The current "bathtub curve" kills off > modern electronics 5-10 years down the road, anyway, and that's more-or- > less controllable - hence, the 3-year warranties. > > (I've helped a friend replace a tube in his 1925 (!) radio receiver > once; it's been in the family since it was new, and in his 40+ years of > owning it, it had never failed before. No, electronics are not > inherently unreliable.) > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23918|23914|2010-09-10 17:03:25|brentswain38|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|One can, at a glance roughly assess the ultimate stability of a boat. If you take a beach ball with a 2% ballast ratio, it will be 100% self righting at 180 degrees. A raft won't be with a 70% ballast ratio. So, if you look at the midship section of a boat, the more it resembles a ball( moderate beam, trunk cabin, wheelhouse , high cabin top camber) the less you have to worry about ultimate stability. The more it resembles a raft ( wide beam , flush decks with little camber) the less likely it is to be self righting at 180 degrees. The buoyancy in my wheelhouse, in the inverted position, is the equivalent of adding 3,000 lbs to the keel, in it's effect on ultimate stability. Angus Primrose, crossing the Atlantic in one of his 32 ft designs, with 12 foot beam, was rolled over, and stayed that way for a long time. After the crossing, he made some calculations, and concluded that even a slight reduction in beam makes a huge improvement in ultimate stability. It was never an issue, until beam became excessive. I was unable to get the model of my 31 to stay inverted. With a 36 footer built of 3/16th plate, the odds of ever punching a hole in her are so remote as to make watertight bulkheads irrelevant. Several have hit sharp rocks and some the corner of a sunken steel barge,at hull speed, without even denting the plate. If you try to twist your model without the decks on , but with bulkheads in , you will find the bulkheads make no difference to the stiffness. Put the decks on, and the difference is huge. It is the decks which resist twisting and give her her stiffness, not the bulkheads. With 6 inch by 2 inch cockpit drains cut in the transom, you couldn't ask for better cockpit drainage. The cockpit well is not over sized, by any stretch of the imagination. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > > Maybe someone knows, but I cannot see why it would not. > As long as your ballast does not come loose, I think it would right > itself just fine. > > Probably, most sailboats would right themselves, certainly a vast nr of > factory built plastic boats have done so innumerable times. > The brent boat is far stiffer and stronget than any factory plastic boat > on the market. > > However, if you ever do get 180 down, you will have a huge number of > problems. > Stuff will come loose, all over the place, and you are likely to have > all sorts of unpleasant liguids mixed with your food, clothes, some > interior bits etc. > Think of some glass, broken, with maybe a loose gas can or two, probably > mixed with your trash bags contents, clothes, and everything in your > lockers... > > Besides, for you to get knocked down in a brent boat, you probably need > to be beam on to the sea, or lose the mast. > I have sailed in some heavy weather (upto F9 gusting 10) and I cannot > think of anything I would rather be in than a brent boat in a hurricane > (except an FPB). > Preferable really far from shore. > > I would not have any concerns about the boat. > Brent (and Steve Dashew) are some of the few designers I know of who > also walk the walk, and both have, in my opinion, contributed enormously > to the art in general. > Both also are helpful to all people (not just clients) and enjoy an > excellent well deserved rep. Their boats do represent the 2 extreme ends > of the financial spectrum. > > > > > > > > Is there a bridge deck to stop water flowing into the cabin below in > > > case the cockpit fills with water? (My current boat has a bridge deck > > > that doubles as a flotation chamber; likely because the boat is too > > > small to accommodate cockpit drains. > > > > > > My biggest question is will a steel, twin keeled, origami design right > > > itself from a 180 degree knockdown? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23919|23910|2010-09-10 17:22:46|Ben Okopnik|Re: |On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 08:42:00PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > Electronics have a problem called"Infant deatht syndrome" If a > component lasts more that a certain number of hours, as they have no > moving parts, theoretically it can last forever. For that reason, > it's a good idea to get at least 100 hours on any electronics > quickly, by leaving it running 24-7, before scaling back it's use, > while it is under warantee. Yep - that's exactly what we call "the bathtub curve". The failure rate looks like the cross-section of a bathtub: very high for the first 50-100 hours, then drops to almost nothing and stays there for years, then rises again as the components come to the end of their lifetimes. Since there are lots of components, their failure rates are additive - so the total chance of failure comes up very sharply. > When Hinckley built the Bermuda 40's they would buy all the > electronics, and leave them running the whole time they were building > the boat. If a component burnt out, they would simply replace that > component. By the time the boat was finished, they would have enough > hours on all the electronics to have exposed any flaws. Makes good sense. Back in the days when I was doing hard drive repairs (this was when a 10 megabyte drive cost real money), we would always run the hell out of a drive for 3 days before returning it to the customer - I wrote a program that would make it seek all the way across the drive platter and back, constantly. Our return rate was somewhere near zero. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23920|23910|2010-09-11 04:13:07|CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|Me too (with the zero failure rate). After the first 24 hours the problems are gone. Back in the day, I sold about 13.000 PC´s one by one, and repaired about 3000. I used to be the tech manager for OCTEK computer (btmikro.fi) in Helsinki, and trained all the bits assemblers. We used to do about 200 PC´s / month, going on upto 400 IIRC. Went to about 18 M$ turnover, when I left, about 1993 or so. BTW- I changed to a new PC last week, and of course the hard drive controller (on the disk itself) blew when I moved it to the new PC. With a flame no less. 150 GB and 8 years of work gone ?! I had two identical SATA drives. Copied (over the 100mbit lan !) the 100+ GB (3 days) on the good disk, swapped the controller from the good HDD to the bad one, and of course it worked ! My mailbox file is about 13 GB. Yippii... These days the HDD controllers dont have ribbon cables any more. They have plate connectors in the bottom, and are only held in place and in contact by 6 little screws that keep the board in place. It´s not really boat related, except that this type of self reliance is needed when doing troubleshooting yourself, often far from any (qualified) help. In the PC filed, only people who have worked these types of gigs, like IP network owners, know what is "good" and what is "bad". Not necessarily why, but when you have say 14.000 critical users online at any given moment, and a new M$ patch gives you 300 calls to helpdesk in 3 minutes, you know the problem is in the patch. The problem in small numbers, like you can see in an office/corporate situation, is that you dont develop the overall view of a wide field of installed stuff to help you see errors. You need to see the effect over a sufficiently large number of samples, like 2000 motherboars over 6 months. These days, most IT problems are not in the hw, as the pipelines have gotten very good at baking out the errors early on. Apart from Dell. Dell had about 100% error rate on hard drives for PC´s a few years back, when in use 24x7. I think about 200 out of 240 came back fro repair in less than 2 years. One of the things I saw as an ip network owner operator was the poor quality of expensive networking exquipment. A 12.000$ Cisco 29xx catalyst switch was often worse than a dumb 100 Mbit 50$ switch. True story. Two little 100 Mbit switches were the most reliable ever, as the expensive ones would sometimes get saturated and collapse (with a large nr of packets). Some error in some packets would sometimes cause them to fail. A reset would fix it, but you dont reset running network switches for (highly) paying corporate customers unless you really must. Still have the little switch, under my desk now. > > > When Hinckley built the Bermuda 40's they would buy all the > > electronics, and leave them running the whole time they were building > > the boat. If a component burnt out, they would simply replace that > > component. By the time the boat was finished, they would have enough > > hours on all the electronics to have exposed any flaws. > > Makes good sense. Back in the days when I was doing hard drive repairs > (this was when a 10 megabyte drive cost real money), we would always run > the hell out of a drive for 3 days before returning it to the customer - > I wrote a program that would make it seek all the way across the drive > platter and back, constantly. Our return rate was somewhere near zero. > > -- > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23921|23910|2010-09-11 13:45:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:12:37AM +0200, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > > I changed to a new PC last week, and of course the hard drive > controller (on the disk itself) blew when I moved it to the new PC. > With a flame no less. > 150 GB and 8 years of work gone ?! No backups??? Bad geek - no cookie for you. :) (Which reminds me - it's been too long since my last backup... ;-) > In the PC filed, only people who have worked these types of gigs, like > IP network owners, know what is "good" and what is "bad". > Not necessarily why, but when you have say 14.000 critical users online > at any given moment, and a new M$ patch gives you 300 calls to helpdesk > in 3 minutes, you know the problem is in the patch. Yep; I've stopped recommending or installing anything but D-Link routers for that exact reason. A friends of mine runs a small ISP, and his experience is that Netgear, etc. = customer callbacks. Cheap-ass D-Link = no callbacks. He gives them away free to any customers that complain about router problems, and never hears from them again. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23922|23910|2010-09-11 15:18:06|CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|Q of the day ? How do you backup a 12 GB mail file ? You want me to be without mail ? (Actually, all my mail is stored on the server (POP3, keep mail on server, grin ;). And did you note that the file transfer takes 4 days ? THE A: is that you cannot easily backup mails. Two hard drives in the same PC is the easiest, but even then it takes a while. About 20 minutes. At the time, hot-swap drives were just too expensive. They still are, but a lot cheaper. And now ! I have the old ones on the old HDD and my new ones. Yep .. no cookie, I know. Grin. OTOH, my cnc mill detailing (disassemble, paint, blacken, lacuer, clean, assemble is coming along nicely amd running again. VBG. I need to do protection for the linear guides, against hot metal chips, and then I can show pics. It will start to do hatches amd portlights and bits Real Soon Know. Ultra-cheap 3-5axis milling (materials and insert cost only ie free work) will be available for the first few interested. Initially I am limited to about 70x40 cm in size. When I upgrade the linear guides, upto 240 x 160 cm size will be available (machine work envelope). (Linear guides, new, from thk, are 14kEUR, and THAT is why I am using smaller ones at first.) > > No backups??? > > Bad geek - no cookie for you. :) > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23923|23923|2010-09-11 17:12:40|jpronk1|Permanent Magnet Alternator|Brent was talking about these soom time ago and I was wondering if this is the type? Thank you, James http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERMANENT-MAGNET-ALTERNATOR-15531-64017-6C040-59250-/120619019005?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item1c15742afd| 23924|23910|2010-09-11 17:37:37|David Frantz|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|Not that I'm good at backups but a couple of suggestions. Use a mail client that saves mail locally yet allows on to keep mail on the server. Since the mail client adds to the already stored mail you don't have to download to get a backup. Do check that the client doesn't trim the local mail box. In any event implement you backup plan from time to time. Hopefully that plan is not based on writable CD/DVDs. If it is test the disks often on different drives. On another note, interesting to hear about you mill. Is it being built for wood or metal? You might of heard of the place but cnczone.com has a huge following of people into homebuilt machines. In many ways the same sorts of minds as in this group. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Sep 12, 2010, at 3:17 PM, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > Q of the day ? > How do you backup a 12 GB mail file ? > > You want me to be without mail ? > (Actually, all my mail is stored on the server (POP3, keep mail on > server, grin ;). > And did you note that the file transfer takes 4 days ? > > THE A: is that you cannot easily backup mails. > Two hard drives in the same PC is the easiest, but even then it takes a > while. About 20 minutes. > > At the time, hot-swap drives were just too expensive. > They still are, but a lot cheaper. > > And now ! I have the old ones on the old HDD and my new ones. > Yep .. no cookie, I know. > > Grin. > OTOH, my cnc mill detailing (disassemble, paint, blacken, lacuer, clean, > assemble is coming along nicely amd running again. VBG. > I need to do protection for the linear guides, against hot metal chips, > and then I can show pics. > > It will start to do hatches amd portlights and bits Real Soon Know. > Ultra-cheap 3-5axis milling (materials and insert cost only ie free > work) will be available for the first few interested. > > Initially I am limited to about 70x40 cm in size. When I upgrade the > linear guides, upto 240 x 160 cm size will be available (machine work > envelope). > (Linear guides, new, from thk, are 14kEUR, and THAT is why I am using > smaller ones at first.) > >> >> No backups??? >> >> Bad geek - no cookie for you. :) >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23925|23910|2010-09-11 18:20:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 09:17:28PM +0200, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > Q of the day ? > How do you backup a 12 GB mail file ? Simple: rsync Mail backup_server:backup/`date +%FT%T`/ :) My mail directory isn't quite as big as yours - about 2GB - but even sitting out here at anchor and using a randomly-snagged WiFi connection, I'm getting about 2MB/s transfer speeds. That means about about 1000 seconds (less than 17 minutes) for 2GB, and less than 2 hours for 12GB. > You want me to be without mail ? > (Actually, all my mail is stored on the server (POP3, keep mail on > server, grin ;). So backing it up is even easier, then. :) > And did you note that the file transfer takes 4 days ? Can't imagine why. If I could do it over WiFi in under 2 hours, doing it over a wired link should be much, much faster. Do note, by the way, that with 'rsync', you only have to do that big upload once: it only transmits incremental file changes, so if you've added a couple of meg to your file since the last backup, that's all you'll send. Big win. > Grin. > OTOH, my cnc mill detailing (disassemble, paint, blacken, lacuer, clean, > assemble is coming along nicely amd running again. VBG. > I need to do protection for the linear guides, against hot metal chips, > and then I can show pics. That's awesome. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing it. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23926|23910|2010-09-11 18:23:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:36:52PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > Not that I'm good at backups but a couple of suggestions. > > Use a mail client that saves mail locally yet allows on to keep mail > on the server. Since the mail client adds to the already stored mail > you don't have to download to get a backup. > > Do check that the client doesn't trim the local mail box. In any > event implement you backup plan from time to time. David, I now officially declare you to be good at backups. :) That's a very reasonable backup policy, especially if you own or control the mail server. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23927|19500|2010-09-11 21:40:40|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Alternator welder|Matt, That would be true for an induction motor, but drills are not induction motors, they are series connected motors with commutators. On variable speed drills they ARE reducing the voltage to the motor! So what Brent is doing is not a problem. In fact, I've done a ton of grinding down inside of my fiberglass boat where I wanted a lot less dust. So I used a dimmer switch with my grinder to slow it way down. One part of the grinder did fail, the switch! That's because I would place the wheel against the surface before turning it on, and stall the motor for a second so it didn't zoom up to speed and produce a big cloud of dust. Hard on the switch, but the commutator and brushes are perfectly fine after many hours of this. Gary H. Lucas -------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Malone" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 9:26 PM To: Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Alternator welder > > > Brent, when one puts load on an electrical motor running at reduced > voltage, it can draw a lot more current, and may overheat. Sharpening a > drill or chisel, I doubt there is a problem. Dimming incandescent lights, > or throttling electric heaters (everything > from toasters, to soldering irons) will always work by reducing the > alternator speed. However, I would not try to drive wood screws at low > speed with a single-speed drill working at reduced voltage. Either it > will not work at all -- the drill will just stop turning -- or the drill > motor may overheat. Also, anything with a switching power supply, like > computers, laptop power bricks and some rechargeable tool power units > could be damaged if they happen to be plugged at the same time that one > reduces speed to something else. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 22:32:40 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Alternator welder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just found another use for the alternator welder. When you use it > as a power supply for your 120 volt tools, it makes all your tools, > including the angle grinder, variable speed. When you want to sharpen a > drill or chisle, etc, without burning it, with the grinder, you slow the > rpm down to an idle, and it runs the grinder as slow as you want to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 23928|23910|2010-09-11 23:29:31|David Frantz|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|Thanks I suspect it is OK even if you don't own the server as you always have the mail file locally backing up is a simple manner of copying the file else where. As a side note I've never been really happy with writable CD's or DVD's, it is all the failures to read on different machines. To that end USB sticks and SD cards have gotten to the point that they are cheap enough to backip small but important files thrpugh rotation of the storage devices. Sadly they are very slow but I haven't had issues with readability and more importantly reusability. The ability to reuse making them a bit cheaper. For the original poster this might be a bit expensive for his large mail file. Im not even sure the file structures on these devices handle files of 12GB. Plus you can't do a proper system backup to these devices. Anyways enough of this stuff, this boating forum keeps my mind off of things loosely work related. I still haven't figured out how to put myself in a boat but every year about this time the cold weather starts to remind just how nasty it will be here in a couple of months. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Sep 11, 2010, at 6:23 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:36:52PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: >> Not that I'm good at backups but a couple of suggestions. >> >> Use a mail client that saves mail locally yet allows on to keep mail >> on the server. Since the mail client adds to the already stored mail >> you don't have to download to get a backup. >> >> Do check that the client doesn't trim the local mail box. In any >> event implement you backup plan from time to time. > > David, I now officially declare you to be good at backups. :) That's a > very reasonable backup policy, especially if you own or control the mail > server. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23929|23910|2010-09-11 23:47:57|CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|I know about cnczone. And yes, my mill is for steel and stainless. About 2000 kg, 600 or so fabricated pieces in steel. I use an old Bridgeport Mill M-head as the spindle (cutting part) head, and a VFD to drive it for 3-phase, variable speed, reverse, soft start, and safety. On industrial linear rails (a 200 kg milling table can be moved with 2 fingers, takes about 10 kg push to start it and runs along with 1 finger, maybe 2 kg force). Does about 0.01 mm resolution and 0.02 mm local accuracy. What NASA used to build the space shuttle with (Bridgeport Boss1 primitive cnc machines, on steppers, circa 1970-1980). I am using little steppers to drive it, as they are ideal for this type of thing. But I have put hi-res servos on my 12x lathe (will be a 7 axis machining center when I can use the mill. Need to make a secondary spindle). If I actually get a lot of use, I will go for heavier frame, longer rails in V2 of mill. I agree on the IT side mentioned... thats why I went to boats. I wont get a lot of competition doing multi-axis milling in large-format. A Deckel Maho or cincinnati or Yasda 5-axis starts at 500k-1.5k$, and running one is 200$+/hour. +Parts, consumables, and programmer. Of course they run a 20kW spindle, and mine is 2 kW. ;) Lots! of people will take their parts for 30EUR an hour though. Especially as the machines will come with me on the boat and can make a driveshaft, alternator mount etc. on-site. And very few traditional machinists will figure out how to integrate rhino (or any of the good 3d packages like Solidworks, ProE, MasterCamx, etc.) to a db or excel, to make parts libraries and automatic drawings for the couple of hundred parts needed for say a 5-axis mill to machine logs into houses. And the big machines are definitely not portable. > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 09:17:28PM +0200, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > > Q of the day ? > > How do you backup a 12 GB mail file ? > > Simple: > > rsync Mail backup_server:backup/`date +%FT%T`/ > Not quite -( The mail file must be copied entire .... when not in use. The backup is a copy of the local mailbox file, and not the one on the server(s), none of which I own or manage. Some are in finland (work), rest is google. I went to gmail corporate for me, from godaddy, and works very well. A gmail with your own domain and 8Gb is 10$/year. ;) Cannot lock a remote servers file when in use.... especially when you dont own the mail server. > > :) > > My mail directory isn't quite as big as yours - about 2GB - but even > sitting out here at anchor and using a randomly-snagged WiFi connection, > I'm getting about 2MB/s transfer speeds. That means about about 1000 > seconds (less than 17 minutes) for 2GB, and less than 2 hours for 12GB. > Not quite. Its bytes not bits per second. Mine was on a 100 MB lan, but still. > > > > You want me to be without mail ? > > (Actually, all my mail is stored on the server (POP3, keep mail on > > server, grin ;). > > So backing it up is even easier, then. :) > > > And did you note that the file transfer takes 4 days ? > Almost 400 GBytes for a full backup ;] The mail file alone is 12 GB, the rest is the 300+ GB. My tactic was to move the HDD, when the controller burnt I chickened on trying with the second one. A good 3D design in Rhino is about 15-30 MB in size (and still runs well, I remember when DesignCad 3D struggled with a 1 MB file- Must have been 1986 or so). > > > Can't imagine why. If I could do it over WiFi in under 2 hours, doing it > over a wired link should be much, much faster. > > Do note, by the way, that with 'rsync', you only have to do that big > upload once: it only transmits incremental file changes, so if you've > added a couple of meg to your file since the last backup, that's all > you'll send. Big win. > Yep ! Ben O. Gotta run MS stuff for the design sw, although I might try in under wine. There is nothing like the Solidworks, MasterCam, Rhino for linux (yet). And if there was 1 only, and no trial for private users, cannot afford it (30k). Rhino is the only good cheap real 3D CAD/CAM one 1 know of, so far. And machine controllers, Mach3, run in ring0 (under windows, direct hw control) and time the hw to microseconds, cannot run in a wine box. EMC is too hard to configure for non-std graphical interfaces, although in some ways superior. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23930|23910|2010-09-12 09:14:26|scott|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|I like linksys wireless routers once I install ddwrt on them :) They seem to run pretty trouble free after that. :) I love being able to pay 50 to 150 bucks for a router and getting the features of a 600 dollar router. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:12:37AM +0200, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > > > > I changed to a new PC last week, and of course the hard drive > > controller (on the disk itself) blew when I moved it to the new PC. > > With a flame no less. > > 150 GB and 8 years of work gone ?! > > No backups??? > > Bad geek - no cookie for you. :) > > (Which reminds me - it's been too long since my last backup... ;-) > > > In the PC filed, only people who have worked these types of gigs, like > > IP network owners, know what is "good" and what is "bad". > > Not necessarily why, but when you have say 14.000 critical users online > > at any given moment, and a new M$ patch gives you 300 calls to helpdesk > > in 3 minutes, you know the problem is in the patch. > > Yep; I've stopped recommending or installing anything but D-Link routers > for that exact reason. A friends of mine runs a small ISP, and his > experience is that Netgear, etc. = customer callbacks. Cheap-ass D-Link > = no callbacks. He gives them away free to any customers that complain > about router problems, and never hears from them again. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 23931|23910|2010-09-12 09:26:28|scott|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|Its called a raid1 array at a minimum or a 1 terrabyte external hard drive with any one of a number of cheap backup software solutions.. Some HP pavilion desktop computers even come with Intel Sata controllers that will do raid 1 or raid 5 built in on the motherboards. My current desktop is like that. I just added a second drive the same size as the original 750 gig drive and told it to create a raid one (mirrored drive) and it mirrored the existing drive on the fly. I did not have to reformat create the mirror and reinstall. It was painless and simple. If you have to add an inexpensive raid sata controller to your computer try and read the reviews and support forums before hand to make sure you get one that can do this. It is a major pain if creating the raid array destroys the contents of the hard drives to do so. You then have to re-install. I just installed a new product to me that I recently ran across for a client due to a compatibility issue with what I normally use. It is called backup4all professional. it cost about 30 or 40 dollars.. so far seems to be doing a great job backing up to dvd every day. It will back up over network, to hard drive or to ftp also... so in answer to your question you can easily back up a 12 gig mail file. If you go the raid route you won't even notice it happening. If you back up to an external usb, firewire or esata hard drive it will take about 10 to 20 minutes every evening while you are asleep. Personally I do both + some .. I try to have my critical data in 4 different places at once if I can.... scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > > Q of the day ? > How do you backup a 12 GB mail file ? | 23932|23910|2010-09-12 09:30:45|scott|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|lol... three different people gave very good suggestions for backup strategies and every one of the suggestions from the three were different. after reading Bens, and Davids suggestions it really highlighted my bias to hardware solutions. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Thanks > > I suspect it is OK even if you don't own the server as you always have the mail file locally backing up is a simple manner of copying the file else where. > > As a side note I've never been really happy with writable CD's or DVD's, it is all the failures to read on different machines. To that end USB sticks and SD cards have gotten to the point that they are cheap enough to backip small but important files thrpugh rotation of the storage devices. Sadly they are very slow but I haven't had issues with readability and more importantly reusability. The ability to reuse making them a bit cheaper. > > For the original poster this might be a bit expensive for his large mail file. Im not even sure the file structures on these devices handle files of 12GB. Plus you can't do a proper system backup to these devices. > > Anyways enough of this stuff, this boating forum keeps my mind off of things loosely work related. I still haven't figured out how to put myself in a boat but every year about this time the cold weather starts to remind just how nasty it will be here in a couple of months. > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 6:23 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:36:52PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > >> Not that I'm good at backups but a couple of suggestions. > >> > >> Use a mail client that saves mail locally yet allows on to keep mail > >> on the server. Since the mail client adds to the already stored mail > >> you don't have to download to get a backup. > >> > >> Do check that the client doesn't trim the local mail box. In any > >> event implement you backup plan from time to time. > > > > David, I now officially declare you to be good at backups. :) That's a > > very reasonable backup policy, especially if you own or control the mail > > server. > > > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 23933|23910|2010-09-12 13:50:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 01:30:34PM -0000, scott wrote: > lol... three different people gave very good suggestions for backup > strategies and every one of the suggestions from the three were > different. > after reading Bens, and Davids suggestions it really highlighted my > bias to hardware solutions. To bring it back to boat topics - one of the projects I have on the boards right now is to install 3 x 1 TB external drives within easy reach of my preferred workspace on the boat; one drive will have all my movies, one will have all my music, and one will be used for my data backup. At ~$80 each, that'll give me a great multimedia center plus a backup system. As my backup strategy - since we're talking :) - each one of these drives will mirror the contents of one of the other drives. In other words, partition 2 on drive 1 will have a copy of partition 1 from drive 3; partition 2 on drive 2 will have a copy of partition 1 from drive 1; and partition 2 on drive 3 will have a copy of partition 1 from drive 2. That way, if a drive fails. it's no big deal - toss in a replacement drive and just copy everything over (Western Digital Caviar drives do sequential transfers at over 100 megabytes per second; that's less than 3 hours for a full terabyte.) That means I "only" get 500GB storage space on each drive, but 1.5TB will be more than plenty: I have about 120GB of music and less than 100 DVDs, each of which will take about 3GB when encoded to the hard drive. Also, I've just welded up an overhead mount for my LCD monitor, which normally hangs over the table in front of my workspace - but can be easily removed and slipped into the set of brackets next to the nav station. /Voila/ - instant entertainment center right across from the settee. In warm weather, I can copy a movie to the laptop hard drive and bring the whole thing out to the cockpit. Nice little quality-of-life hack. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23934|19500|2010-09-12 13:58:01|Matt Malone|Re: Alternator welder|Dimmer switches generally pulse-width modulate using thyristors. They do not reduce the voltage waveform, only time-average of the voltage delivered. One can be certain of this by Ohm's Law, the Power Law, and putting one hand on the light bulb and the other on the dimmer switch. If the dimmer switch were delivering full-wave power, and reducing the voltage to the light, it would be taking the voltage, and by the Power Law, would get hot, comparable to the bulb, at some dimmer sections. I am uncertain how ALL variable speed drills work. I image ones that use universal (AC) motors use some sort of field control. Those that use DC motors likely reduce the voltage using a simple variable buck circuit or again, pulse-width modulation. However, a high power dimmer switch seems to be solution for most tools. One must be careful, again, some circuits are incompatible with dimmer switches. Even most simple compact florescent bulbs are not dimmable. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gary.lucas@... Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 21:40:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Alternator welder Matt, That would be true for an induction motor, but drills are not induction motors, they are series connected motors with commutators. On variable speed drills they ARE reducing the voltage to the motor! So what Brent is doing is not a problem. In fact, I've done a ton of grinding down inside of my fiberglass boat where I wanted a lot less dust. So I used a dimmer switch with my grinder to slow it way down. One part of the grinder did fail, the switch! That's because I would place the wheel against the surface before turning it on, and stall the motor for a second so it didn't zoom up to speed and produce a big cloud of dust. Hard on the switch, but the commutator and brushes are perfectly fine after many hours of this. Gary H. Lucas -------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Malone" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 9:26 PM To: Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Alternator welder > > > Brent, when one puts load on an electrical motor running at reduced > voltage, it can draw a lot more current, and may overheat. Sharpening a > drill or chisel, I doubt there is a problem. Dimming incandescent lights, > or throttling electric heaters (everything > from toasters, to soldering irons) will always work by reducing the > alternator speed. However, I would not try to drive wood screws at low > speed with a single-speed drill working at reduced voltage. Either it > will not work at all -- the drill will just stop turning -- or the drill > motor may overheat. Also, anything with a switching power supply, like > computers, laptop power bricks and some rechargeable tool power units > could be damaged if they happen to be plugged at the same time that one > reduces speed to something else. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 22:32:40 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Alternator welder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just found another use for the alternator welder. When you use it > as a power supply for your 120 volt tools, it makes all your tools, > including the angle grinder, variable speed. When you want to sharpen a > drill or chisle, etc, without burning it, with the grinder, you slow the > rpm down to an idle, and it runs the grinder as slow as you want to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23935|23910|2010-09-12 16:49:55|David Frantz|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|Unfortunately we could answer the question for weeks on end and not repeat the same idea. Back ups are important but it does look like the number of ways to protect yourself are almost unlimited. For any one user it is hard to say what technique is best. As to your bias to hardware solutions there is nothing wrong with that at all. In fact I've been flirting with setting up a mini RAIDed server at my house. The problem there is the expense, after all if I really want to go sailing I need to be a bit stingy. A server would allow me to automate though. By the way even at work I still back up stuff critical to me on USB sticks. It is amazing the number of times the network has gone down or a server share come up missing. Then there is the IT department doing whatever with out saying anything to anybody. The important thing is to keep those critical to you files in enough different locations that you can find them whenever you need them. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Sep 12, 2010, at 9:30 AM, scott wrote: > lol... three different people gave very good suggestions for backup strategies and every one of the suggestions from the three were different. > after reading Bens, and Davids suggestions it really highlighted my bias to hardware solutions. > Scott > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: >> >> Thanks >> >> I suspect it is OK even if you don't own the server as you always have the mail file locally backing up is a simple manner of copying the file else where. >> >> As a side note I've never been really happy with writable CD's or DVD's, it is all the failures to read on different machines. To that end USB sticks and SD cards have gotten to the point that they are cheap enough to backip small but important files thrpugh rotation of the storage devices. Sadly they are very slow but I haven't had issues with readability and more importantly reusability. The ability to reuse making them a bit cheaper. >> >> For the original poster this might be a bit expensive for his large mail file. Im not even sure the file structures on these devices handle files of 12GB. Plus you can't do a proper system backup to these devices. >> >> Anyways enough of this stuff, this boating forum keeps my mind off of things loosely work related. I still haven't figured out how to put myself in a boat but every year about this time the cold weather starts to remind just how nasty it will be here in a couple of months. >> >> >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 6:23 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 05:36:52PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: >>>> Not that I'm good at backups but a couple of suggestions. >>>> >>>> Use a mail client that saves mail locally yet allows on to keep mail >>>> on the server. Since the mail client adds to the already stored mail >>>> you don't have to download to get a backup. >>>> >>>> Do check that the client doesn't trim the local mail box. In any >>>> event implement you backup plan from time to time. >>> >>> David, I now officially declare you to be good at backups. :) That's a >>> very reasonable backup policy, especially if you own or control the mail >>> server. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> OKOPNIK CONSULTING >>> Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business >>> Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming >>> 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23936|23936|2010-09-12 19:00:08|akenai|Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines|Several people were talking about purchasing one the plasma cutting/ welding machines awhile back and I was wondering if they did and how ell the machines were holding up performance and if any warranty repairs were required? Aaron| 23937|23936|2010-09-13 07:56:57|kimdxx|Re: Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines|Hi Aaron ... I've got a plasma-cutter/welding machine combo. Actually, it's a 3-in-1 unit: a 40-amp plasma cutter, 160-amp stick welder, and a 160-amp TIG welder. I haven't used its TIG functionality; but it's the best stick welder I've ever owned! And the plasma-cutting component is awesome - I've cut 8mm plate with it OK, and it's supposed to be able to cut up to 12mm! It very cleanly cuts the 3mm plate that I'm building my boat from like a hot knife through butter! I bought it about 8 months ago on eBay for AU$500 from an Australian eBay merchant. Here is a link to exactly the same welder I got: http://tinyurl.com/3ayd3d3 All the specs are on the above page. It's a DC inverter type, and so far it has been really great. I don't try to look after it or be careful with it, and nothing's broken on it yet. It definitely works as advertised, and I'm extremely pleased with it. I haven't had to make any warranty claims on it so far; but if I had to do so the place I bought it from also has a "bricks & mortar" shop, so I might be OK. I think it's Chinese-made, so identical machines (but branded differently) are probably available everywhere. Hope this helps! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction blog: http://kimdowl.blogspot.com/ _____________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai" wrote: > Several people were talking about purchasing one the plasma cutting/ welding machines awhile back and I was wondering if they did and how ell the machines were holding up performance and if any warranty repairs > were required? > > Aaron _____________________________________________________________ | 23938|23936|2010-09-13 08:17:35|CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines|I have a similar sized chinese 160 amp inverter stick welder bought about 1 year ago, after the old one died probably due to using with generator in making the amusement park ride. Bought from a little spanish chinese-stuff importer. I am likewise extremely pleased with mine, and it is much better than the previous, little inverter welder. I am also a better welder these days, probably due to the couple hundred hours practice ;) I hope to get a gig to go make a 7m long 5-axis cnc log production line, and that might fund my boatshop ;) ... finally. Cheers, Hannu > > Hi Aaron ... > > I've got a plasma-cutter/welding machine combo. Actually, it's a > 3-in-1 unit: a 40-amp plasma cutter, 160-amp stick welder, and a > 160-amp TIG welder. > > I haven't used its TIG functionality; but it's the best stick welder > I've ever owned! And the plasma-cutting component is awesome - I've > cut 8mm plate with it OK, and it's supposed to be able to cut up to > 12mm! It very cleanly cuts the 3mm plate that I'm building my boat > from like a hot knife through butter! > > I bought it about 8 months ago on eBay for AU$500 from an Australian > eBay merchant. Here is a link to exactly the same welder I got: > > http://tinyurl.com/3ayd3d3 > > All the specs are on the above page. It's a DC inverter type, and so > far it has been really great. I don't try to look after it or be > careful with it, and nothing's broken on it yet. It definitely works > as advertised, and I'm extremely pleased with it. I haven't had to > make any warranty claims on it so far; but if I had to do so the place > I bought it from also has a "bricks & mortar" shop, so I might be OK. > > I think it's Chinese-made, so identical machines (but branded > differently) are probably available everywhere. > > Hope this helps! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23939|23910|2010-09-13 08:34:52|scott|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Unfortunately we could answer the question for weeks on end and not repeat the same idea. Back ups are important but it does look like the number of ways to protect yourself are almost unlimited. For any one user it is hard to say what technique is best. > > As to your bias to hardware solutions there is nothing wrong with that at all. In fact I've been flirting with setting up a mini RAIDed server at my house. The problem there is the expense, after all if I really want to go sailing I need to be a bit stingy. A server would allow me to automate though. > > By the way even at work I still back up stuff critical to me on USB sticks. It is amazing the number of times the network has gone down or a server share come up missing. Then there is the IT department doing whatever with out saying anything to anybody. > > The important thing is to keep those critical to you files in enough different locations that you can find them whenever you need them. > > > > David A Frantz I ran a dedicated raid server for a long time at my office as a network storage device to keep all the important stuff on.. I finally realized that it was just costing to much in power, heat load on the ac system and just general complexity in general to justify a separate computer. I just use my desktop for that now with a raid controller on the motherboard. The plus side to having the raid on the motherboard is that I get my redundancy for my desktop OS also. scott| 23940|23936|2010-09-13 09:47:47|Aaron Williams|Re: Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines|Thanks for the reply I have a coworker that is interested in one and asked me what I thought about them and the only thing I know is you guys were using them. Aaron ________________________________ From: kimdxx To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, September 13, 2010 3:56:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines   Hi Aaron ... I've got a plasma-cutter/welding machine combo. Actually, it's a 3-in-1 unit: a 40-amp plasma cutter, 160-amp stick welder, and a 160-amp TIG welder. I haven't used its TIG functionality; but it's the best stick welder I've ever owned! And the plasma-cutting component is awesome - I've cut 8mm plate with it OK, and it's supposed to be able to cut up to 12mm! It very cleanly cuts the 3mm plate that I'm building my boat from like a hot knife through butter! I bought it about 8 months ago on eBay for AU$500 from an Australian eBay merchant. Here is a link to exactly the same welder I got: http://tinyurl.com/3ayd3d3 All the specs are on the above page. It's a DC inverter type, and so far it has been really great. I don't try to look after it or be careful with it, and nothing's broken on it yet. It definitely works as advertised, and I'm extremely pleased with it. I haven't had to make any warranty claims on it so far; but if I had to do so the place I bought it from also has a "bricks & mortar" shop, so I might be OK. I think it's Chinese-made, so identical machines (but branded differently) are probably available everywhere. Hope this helps! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction blog: http://kimdowl.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai" wrote: > Several people were talking about purchasing one the plasma cutting/ welding >machines awhile back and I was wondering if they did and how ell the machines >were holding up performance and if any warranty repairs > were required? > > Aaron __________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23941|23941|2010-09-13 17:23:40|GP|Some missing Plankton|http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f80/mass-plankton-die-off-44384.html An article about a rapid plankton die off(40% minimum)recently sparked the above debate at the Cruisers Forum. Plankton supplies the planet with a significant level of oxygen and food for sea life... both of which are of interest to us as sailors. We have had a rather long run of tech stuff on the site lately...so ... any opinions about this reported massive die off of plankton? Fair winds Gary| 23942|23941|2010-09-13 18:42:30|GP|Re: Some missing Plankton|Reading through the posts at CF.... this one post fit with my take on things... (From Cruisers Forum... as posted by someone) " I've enjoyed reading this thread. I spent the early part of my life working as a marine biologist and ecologist (scientific, not crackpot). I decided that there was in fact no hope of stopping the coming ecological catastrophe caused by human beings, so I got out of that field and decided to make some money to do what I enjoyed. As a few people have pointed out the earth is essentially a closed system and the resources available to us are finite. We (people in general) are consuming these resources at an ever increasing rate as the population grows and people try to increase their standard of living. Consuming those resources is the only thing that enables the planet to support nearly 7 billion people. The waste products produced are poisoning our environment and will continue to do so. For those with any training at all in microbiology you would recognize the growth curve of a colony of bacteria on a Petri dish. The colony grows on an exponential curve slowly at first then the growth curve goes vertical. This goes on until one of two things happens, the colony runs out of resources (food) or the colony's waste products poison the individuals and the population suddenly crashes to a very low level. The human population curve entered this vertical growth phase about 100 years ago. Human ingenuity has the ability to delay the crash, but it cannot prevent the crash. The human population crash will of course take a lot of species with it. For those who might not think that these curves apply to higher animals I would point to an incident in the early 80s in Florida. There was a section of the everglades cut off by man made structures that prevented the local deer population from migrating, thus creating a closed system that was resource limited. Since there were essentially no deer predators in this area the population began to explode. Professional wildlife biologists decided to save most of the population the deer herd needed to be culled from 4500 individuals to about 2500. The Florida fish and game commission decided to allow hunters into the area to kill about 2000 of the deer. This had to be done before the middle of July of that year or the resources would be consumed beyond the ability of the area to support even the 2500 number. In early June a bunch of self appointed animal lovers and ecological do gooders with no knowledge, led by author Cleveland Amory managed to get a court injunction against the hunt, while they tried to capture and relocate the deer. They managed to capture 4 deer by the beginning of August all of which died from the shock of the capture process. By then of course the window for saving the majority of the population had passed and over four thousand deer died a slow and painful death from starvation. By then of course the do gooders were no where to be seen and the news media decided not to cover the consequences of their actions. So which one will get us, lack of resources or pollution? I haven't got a clue; there are simply too many factors to consider. In the grand scheme of things global warming is just an inconvenience to people living along the coasts. Is there a man made component, probably? Are the oceans being destroyed by human activity? No, but they are being changed. The oceans will survive human beings and they will be different after we're gone. Coral scientists claim that global warming and ocean acidification will wipe out coral reefs and make corals extinct. Nonsense, corals have survived far worse than what humans are throwing at them and are still here. CO2 levels have been historically much higher (and the oceans much more acidic) than current predicted by GW scientists and we still have corals. What most scientists are unwilling to say publically is that there is only one way to prevent an eventual ecological catastrophe. About 6 billion people have to get off the earth now. The problem is a lack of volunteers, and since we have a moral issue with culling people, there is no viable solution. Of course all of this presupposes that an asteroid or super volcano doesn't get us first. So how am I going to handle this? I'm going sailing and I'm going to enjoy what we have while we have it. ": --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f80/mass-plankton-die-off-44384.html > > An article about a rapid plankton die off(40% minimum)recently sparked the above debate at the Cruisers Forum. Plankton supplies the planet with a significant level of oxygen and food for sea life... both of which are of interest to us as sailors. > > We have had a rather long run of tech stuff on the site lately...so ... any opinions about this reported massive die off of plankton? > > Fair winds > Gary > | 23943|23923|2010-09-13 19:27:59|brentswain38|Re: Permanent Magnet Alternator|Yes, absolutely. Expensive, but far less than a wind generator, which is probably the same thing. I hope to find one in an autowrecker. A friend got his up to 3 volts AC by turning it by hand. Thanks for posting the photo. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > Brent was talking about these soom time ago and I was wondering if this is the type? > Thank you, > James > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERMANENT-MAGNET-ALTERNATOR-15531-64017-6C040-59250-/120619019005?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item1c15742afd > | 23944|23914|2010-09-13 19:33:09|brentswain38|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|That is why I made my bunk tops a single, one piece lid, as with my floor panels. This enables me to tie them down in a gale, so the boat can be inverted, without them, or anything under them, going anywhere. It's not hard to do, with a bit of planning. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > > Maybe someone knows, but I cannot see why it would not. > As long as your ballast does not come loose, I think it would right > itself just fine. > > Probably, most sailboats would right themselves, certainly a vast nr of > factory built plastic boats have done so innumerable times. > The brent boat is far stiffer and stronget than any factory plastic boat > on the market. > > However, if you ever do get 180 down, you will have a huge number of > problems. > Stuff will come loose, all over the place, and you are likely to have > all sorts of unpleasant liguids mixed with your food, clothes, some > interior bits etc. > Think of some glass, broken, with maybe a loose gas can or two, probably > mixed with your trash bags contents, clothes, and everything in your > lockers... > > Besides, for you to get knocked down in a brent boat, you probably need > to be beam on to the sea, or lose the mast. > I have sailed in some heavy weather (upto F9 gusting 10) and I cannot > think of anything I would rather be in than a brent boat in a hurricane > (except an FPB). > Preferable really far from shore. > > I would not have any concerns about the boat. > Brent (and Steve Dashew) are some of the few designers I know of who > also walk the walk, and both have, in my opinion, contributed enormously > to the art in general. > Both also are helpful to all people (not just clients) and enjoy an > excellent well deserved rep. Their boats do represent the 2 extreme ends > of the financial spectrum. > > > > > > > > Is there a bridge deck to stop water flowing into the cabin below in > > > case the cockpit fills with water? (My current boat has a bridge deck > > > that doubles as a flotation chamber; likely because the boat is too > > > small to accommodate cockpit drains. > > > > > > My biggest question is will a steel, twin keeled, origami design right > > > itself from a 180 degree knockdown? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23945|23941|2010-09-13 21:15:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: Some missing Plankton|On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 10:42:24PM -0000, GP wrote: > > The human population curve entered this vertical growth phase about > 100 years ago. Human ingenuity has the ability to delay the crash, > but it cannot prevent the crash. The human population crash will of > course take a lot of species with it. (Yawn) TEOTWAWKI, film at 11. Again. > What most scientists are unwilling to say publically is that there is > only one way to prevent an eventual ecological catastrophe. About 6 > billion people have to get off the earth now. The problem is a lack of > volunteers, and since we have a moral issue with culling people, there > is no viable solution. Of course all of this presupposes that an > asteroid or super volcano doesn't get us first. Oh, dear. Is the universe out to get us *again*? Darn it, I've only got three chapters to go in this book I'm reading! The problem of over-population _has_ gone beyond our ability to handle it in socially-acceptable ways simply because there *are* no socially-acceptable ways to handle it. How does he propose to stop people from having children? Until we, the entire human race, evolve to the point where our intelligence over-rules our deepest primal drives (if we ever do; I have my doubts, including doubts that it would be a good thing), it's a completely pointless worry. Nothing but intellectual wanking and hand-wringing. As always, since we can't handle it, the good Reverend Malthus will do it for us. Guaranteed. It's a simple formula: increases in food production are linear; population growth is - as everyone hopefully knows - non. At some point, that curve _will_ intersect that line - at which point, or a bit before, people will a) starve, b) kill each other for food, c) succumb to diseases brought on by the malnutrition and the effects of the wars. We don't have to like it. But we'd be stupid not to acknowledge it. > So how am I going to handle this? I'm going sailing and I'm going to > enjoy what we have while we have it. Exactly. Except I'm doing it _without_ going into a tizzy about "but how will the world survive?" Simple: we'll kill a bunch of ourselves off, and the survivors will be smarter, better equipped to keep going, and fitter than the previous generations. Same as it ever was. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23946|23941|2010-09-13 21:30:21|Ben Okopnik|Re: Some missing Plankton|On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 09:23:33PM -0000, GP wrote: > http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f80/mass-plankton-die-off-44384.html > > An article about a rapid plankton die off(40% minimum)recently sparked > the above debate at the Cruisers Forum. Plankton supplies the planet > with a significant level of oxygen and food for sea life... both of > which are of interest to us as sailors. > > We have had a rather long run of tech stuff on the site lately...so > ... any opinions about this reported massive die off of plankton? If it were true, it would be a bad thing. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. :) A quick search of some reputable scientific resources hasn't turned up a whole lot in a way of supporting data (amusingly enough, the first hit in Google is the CF thread.) The numbers sound pretty whacky, though: a 40-73% decline since 1950? Given that plankton comes and goes in "explosive blooms", measuring it a day earlier or a day later would give you wildly skewed results. I'd suspend judgement until some harder data came in. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23947|23914|2010-09-13 23:28:48|Matt Malone|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|> I have sailed in some heavy weather (upto F9 gusting 10) and I cannot > think of anything I would rather be in than a brent boat in a hurricane > (except an FPB). What does FPB stand for ? Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23948|23914|2010-09-14 03:26:13|CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: FPB|Fast Power Boat http://dashewoffshore.com/fpb64_intro.asp Best cruiser in the world, only production manufactured one, imo. Only if you have 4 mill to spare. What I would get if money was absolutely immaterial (unfortunately, it´s not). The nearest second, for the same size, is a Nordhavn 64, about half the cost but fiberglass. Vastly weaker (but not weak by any means), hull too fat, too light for the displacement so must use stablisers, crap fridges (subzero), full of expensive crap ("systems" and "bling"), yet strongest by far of the production builders. Only if you have 2 mil to spare. What I would get if I had a wife who goes for bling (thankfully she does not) and had to convince her, and had the money, and had no time or interest myself in the build process. Cheers, Hannu IMO, apart from the top- range- of- market crap, Steve Dashew puts the best systems choices into his designs. He makes the right choices for his market, imho, as he has to sell expensive boats to make it work. > > I have sailed in some heavy weather (upto F9 gusting 10) and I cannot > > think of anything I would rather be in than a brent boat in a hurricane > > (except an FPB). > > What does FPB stand for ? > > Matt > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23949|23914|2010-09-14 05:15:30|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: FPB|Got a vast disadvantage built in, this "cruizer" of Dashwews anyway: It does not sail. A boat which just has a jury rig as a sort of "Get Home System" didn't meet the Idea of "cruising" at all, not to mention the principle of getting anywhere in this 21st century before any first thought of getting back no matter where this ever might have been ... Am 15.09.2010 um 09:25 schrieb CNC 6-axis Designs: > > .. best cruiser in the world, only production manufactured one, imo. > Only if you have 4 mill to spare. What I would get if money was > absolutely immaterial (unfortunately, it´s not). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23950|23941|2010-09-14 07:49:03|scott|Re: Some missing Plankton|We (people in general) are consuming these resources at an ever increasing rate as the population grows and people try to increase their standard of living. Consuming those resources is the only thing that enables the planet to support nearly 7 billion people. The waste products produced are poisoning our environment and will continue to do so. For those with any training at all in microbiology you would recognize the growth curve of a colony of bacteria on a Petri dish. The colony grows on an exponential curve slowly at first then the growth curve goes vertical. This goes on until one of two things happens, the colony runs out of resources (food) or the colony's waste products poison the individuals and the population suddenly crashes to a very low level. The human population curve entered this vertical growth phase about 100 years ago. Human ingenuity has the ability to delay the crash, but it cannot prevent the crash. The human population crash will of course take a lot of species with it. > > > > Fair winds > > Gary > > > If you have looked at human population curves in most country's on earth lately they have started to go neutral to negative. Russia is going to depopulate in a generation or two if they don't start having babies soon. All of Europe other than the muslim population centers within it is negative population growth. China is negative populations growth (government mandated in this case). The US is at 2.1 (so just barely above maintainence growth) all our growth above this is immigration. I think that population might not be the bugaboo that we though it was going to be. I'm not sure of the mechanism but we seem to be self regulating the population in many country's now. Anyways there is always plenty of people dying world wide as some asshole tries to ethnically cleanse his population or convert someone to his religion at the point of the sword. Just saying.| 23951|23891|2010-09-14 11:25:44|Gord Schnell|Re: Wheel weights switch to steel for wheel balancing weights.|As was previously pointed out, solder doesn't bond to much by copper, however, many (most) ICs are now "socketed". The chip plugs into the socket rather than being soldered into place. Gord On 8-Sep-10, at 9:49 PM, Darren Bos wrote: > Yes, but but rosin-core solder will stick to > plated (tin or something more exotic) > steel/iron. My googling turned up relatively > little information, although I found one IC leg > manufacturer that offered the following "iron, > carbon steel, stainless steel, brass, copper, > alloy steel, aluminum, cold rolled steel with > various plating Standard/ specification" > > My original source on the info was an article in > Practical Boat Owner about making an LED deck > light, they warned of the iron and recommended > bedding the components in resin. Frankly, I'd be > shocked if the IC industry didn't try and > substitute cheaper materials. It is the perfect > example of an industry with large volumes, where > saving a fraction of a cent per item helps keep the shareholders > happy. > > Darren > > At 08:04 PM 07/09/2010, you wrote: > > > > > >On Tue, Sep 07, 2010 at 08:00:49PM -0700, Darren Bos wrote: > > > In a similar example, I recently learned that > > > many electronic components now have legs made of > > > steel rather than copper. Not so good in a > > > marine environment, but apparently it saves money. > > > >I seriously doubt that story. Rosin-core solder, which is what's used > >for electronic components, won't stick to steel. > > > >-- > >OKOPNIK CONSULTING > >Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > >Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > >443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23952|23914|2010-09-14 11:29:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: FPB|On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:25:40AM +0200, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > Fast Power Boat > http://dashewoffshore.com/fpb64_intro.asp > > Best cruiser in the world, only production manufactured one, imo. > Only if you have 4 mill to spare. What I would get if money was > absolutely immaterial (unfortunately, it´s not). Eh, Brent could probably build it for a couple of hundred bucks. As long as you have a good metal scrapyard nearby. :) > IMO, apart from the top- range- of- market crap, Steve Dashew puts the > best systems choices into his designs. > He makes the right choices for his market, imho, as he has to sell > expensive boats to make it work. I have to agree. I've been aboard a Sundeer (many years ago, now), and I was impressed as hell. Nothing to do with the price - I've been aboard power boats that cost $5M+, and it was all cheap but shiny plastic crap - but Dashew's single-minded pursuit of what is absolutely best regardless of price definitely shows results. The most interesting part is that many of the best features aren't at all expensive: just really good, seaman-like thinking. Very clean, very strong design. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23953|23941|2010-09-14 15:01:01|brentswain38|Re: Some missing Plankton|The bottom line is a taboo subject for politicoes. Too many people , and immigration, which , when they immigrate from a third world country to a first world country, their environmental footprint goes up 13 times. In Pakistan, where thay have 5 to 10 kids each, the ability of the land to absorb and hold water has been eliminated . Thus the floods are of their own making. As Yogi Berra said "They buttered their bread, let them lie in it." Mother earth is about to hit the reset button. What doctors need to invent is a retroactive vasectomy, or a 15 years after pill. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > We (people in general) are consuming these resources at an ever increasing rate as the population grows and people try to increase their standard of living. Consuming those resources is the only thing that enables the planet to support nearly 7 billion people. The waste products produced are poisoning our environment and will continue to do so. For those with any training at all in microbiology you would recognize the growth curve of a colony of bacteria on a Petri dish. The colony grows on an exponential curve slowly at first then the growth curve goes vertical. This goes on until one of two things happens, the colony runs out of resources (food) or the colony's waste products poison the individuals and the population suddenly crashes to a very low level. The human population curve entered this vertical growth phase about 100 years ago. Human ingenuity has the ability to delay the crash, but it cannot prevent the crash. The human population crash will of course take a lot of species with it. > > > > > > Fair winds > > > Gary > > > > > > > If you have looked at human population curves in most country's on earth lately they have started to go neutral to negative. Russia is going to depopulate in a generation or two if they don't start having babies soon. All of Europe other than the muslim population centers within it is negative population growth. China is negative populations growth (government mandated in this case). The US is at 2.1 (so just barely above maintainence growth) all our growth above this is immigration. I think that population might not be the bugaboo that we though it was going to be. I'm not sure of the mechanism but we seem to be self regulating the population in many country's now. Anyways there is always plenty of people dying world wide as some asshole tries to ethnically cleanse his population or convert someone to his religion at the point of the sword. > > Just saying. > | 23954|23941|2010-09-14 16:03:38|Paul Wilson|Re: Some missing Plankton|There are right wing Christians advocating having more babies to counter-act the Muslim hoards.....with this kind of thinking, no wonder there are problems. The third world is greatly affected by the policies of the first world.. I quite often think they would be better off if we left them alone. I lived in Philippines for 2 1/2 years. The effects of almost 90 million people on such a small country are unbelievable. The nuns and priests would step over naked children sleeping on the street, to get into the convenience store to lecture vendors trying to sell condoms. Sorry to say but the church's policy on birth control has slowly destroyed that country. Paul On 9/15/2010 7:00 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > > The bottom line is a taboo subject for politicoes. Too many people , > and immigration, which , when they immigrate from a third world > country to a first world country, their environmental footprint goes > up 13 times. > In Pakistan, where thay have 5 to 10 kids each, the ability of the > land to absorb and hold water has been eliminated . Thus the floods > are of their own making. > As Yogi Berra said "They buttered their bread, let them lie in it." > Mother earth is about to hit the reset button. > What doctors need to invent is a retroactive vasectomy, or a 15 years > after pill. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "scott" wrote: > > > > We (people in general) are consuming these resources at an ever > increasing rate as the population grows and people try to increase > their standard of living. Consuming those resources is the only thing > that enables the planet to support nearly 7 billion people. The waste > products produced are poisoning our environment and will continue to > do so. For those with any training at all in microbiology you would > recognize the growth curve of a colony of bacteria on a Petri dish. > The colony grows on an exponential curve slowly at first then the > growth curve goes vertical. This goes on until one of two things > happens, the colony runs out of resources (food) or the colony's waste > products poison the individuals and the population suddenly crashes to > a very low level. The human population curve entered this vertical > growth phase about 100 years ago. Human ingenuity has the ability to > delay the crash, but it cannot prevent the crash. The human population > crash will of course take a lot of species with it. > > > > > > > > Fair winds > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > If you have looked at human population curves in most country's on > earth lately they have started to go neutral to negative. Russia is > going to depopulate in a generation or two if they don't start having > babies soon. All of Europe other than the muslim population centers > within it is negative population growth. China is negative populations > growth (government mandated in this case). The US is at 2.1 (so just > barely above maintainence growth) all our growth above this is > immigration. I think that population might not be the bugaboo that we > though it was going to be. I'm not sure of the mechanism but we seem > to be self regulating the population in many country's now. Anyways > there is always plenty of people dying world wide as some asshole > tries to ethnically cleanse his population or convert someone to his > religion at the point of the sword. > > > > Just saying. > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3133 - Release Date: 09/14/10 06:35:00 > | 23955|23910|2010-09-15 12:51:30|h|Re: OT: troubleshoting electronics, HDD and IP|I've been playing with Varicad on ubuntu, there's a free 30 day trial from the website and key gens for it online, seems like a nice fully functional mechanical cad program, don't know if you can use it for your purposes for the cnc, but it's worth a look. > > > Ben O. > Gotta run MS stuff for the design sw, although I might try in under wine. > There is nothing like the Solidworks, MasterCam, Rhino for linux (yet). > And if there was 1 only, and no trial for private users, cannot afford > it (30k). > Rhino is the only good cheap real 3D CAD/CAM one 1 know of, so far. > > And machine controllers, Mach3, run in ring0 (under windows, direct hw > control) and time the hw to microseconds, cannot run in a wine box. > EMC is too hard to configure for non-std graphical interfaces, although > in some ways superior. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23956|23910|2010-09-15 13:08:27|CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: (ot) Boat Parts tools - cnc|The only Q is does it makes good IGES models ? Iges is a documented, interoperable 3D ! (which is vastly important) file format. Just opened my big mill model file, made in Rhino (.3DM model) in Mastercam X4, and it came up perfectly. Need to learn Mastercam 5 axis, will take maybe a month or so. Seems very easy so far. (Month or so, because I have maybe 5k hours in 3D stuff, going back about 25 years). Commercial IGEs files (timing belt pulleys) also opened perfectly in MasterCan. And jut cleaned the solid 70x70x700 mm billets of tool steel, that I need to drill for 10 mm (maybe ream them, too, for perfect alignment, fit and finish) to hold the milling machine bridge in place. Current L-shaped brackets (70x70x7 bt 700 mm long) flex when drilling (drilling puts about 200 kg of load on table). The new solid ones will not flex a lot. 4 of, about 45 kg in mass each. I call them the "King Bolts". Grin. Big and Solid. I am about to start making boat parts Real Soon Now. > I've been playing with Varicad on ubuntu, there's a free 30 day trial > from the website and key gens for it online, seems like a nice fully > functional mechanical cad program, don't know if you can use it for > your purposes for the cnc, but it's worth a look. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23957|23936|2010-09-15 13:14:01|h|Re: Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines|Since were on the topic of welders, could anyone explain to me the concept behind 110v - 220v power, a while back I was helping a friend at the campbell river docks were for some reason they don't run 220v power to the power boxes and I made up a split pigtail plug that went into two 110v 30amp sockets, the welder (AC stick) I was using has a plug on in that looks like a regular (north american) 110v plug but is larger, so three prongs one round one at the bottom and two flat vertical ones one of which is slightly larger. I just wired both neutral wires (white) together and both hots (black) together to the corresponding color of wire connected to the welders plug. Don't really understand why this worked or how this is 220v as it's just two 110v in parallel but I didn't end up blowing the breaker and it would weld just fine. Most 220v sockets have four holes, I'm assuming a ground (green), a return (white) and two live wires (black and red) but are these just two 110v? and how does this add up to 220v and would one be able to get away with this with one of those 3-in-1 inverter welders? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Thanks for the reply I have a coworker that is interested in one and asked me > what I thought about them and the only thing I know is you guys were using them. > > Aaron > > > > > ________________________________ > From: kimdxx > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, September 13, 2010 3:56:54 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines > >   > > Hi Aaron ... > > I've got a plasma-cutter/welding machine combo. Actually, it's a 3-in-1 unit: a > 40-amp plasma cutter, 160-amp stick welder, and a 160-amp TIG welder. > > I haven't used its TIG functionality; but it's the best stick welder I've ever > owned! And the plasma-cutting component is awesome - I've cut 8mm plate with it > OK, and it's supposed to be able to cut up to 12mm! It very cleanly cuts the 3mm > plate that I'm building my boat from like a hot knife through butter! > > I bought it about 8 months ago on eBay for AU$500 from an Australian eBay > merchant. Here is a link to exactly the same welder I got: > > http://tinyurl.com/3ayd3d3 > > All the specs are on the above page. It's a DC inverter type, and so far it has > been really great. I don't try to look after it or be careful with it, and > nothing's broken on it yet. It definitely works as advertised, and I'm extremely > pleased with it. I haven't had to make any warranty claims on it so far; but if > I had to do so the place I bought it from also has a "bricks & mortar" shop, so > I might be OK. > > I think it's Chinese-made, so identical machines (but branded differently) are > probably available everywhere. > > Hope this helps! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction blog: http://kimdowl.blogspot.com/ > __________________________________________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai" wrote: > > > Several people were talking about purchasing one the plasma cutting/ welding > >machines awhile back and I was wondering if they did and how ell the machines > >were holding up performance and if any warranty repairs > > were required? > > > > Aaron > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23958|23941|2010-09-15 13:51:25|h|Re: Some missing Plankton|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The bottom line is a taboo subject for politicoes. Too many people , and immigration, which , when they immigrate from a third world country to a first world country, their environmental footprint goes up 13 times. > In Pakistan, where thay have 5 to 10 kids each, the ability of the land to absorb and hold water has been eliminated . Thus the floods are of their own making. > As Yogi Berra said "They buttered their bread, let them lie in it." > Mother earth is about to hit the reset button. > What doctors need to invent is a retroactive vasectomy, or a 15 years after pill. > They have those it's called rat poison Brent. I for one identify with that ex-microbiologist, I'm content sitting on my boat watching the world collapse. I remember when I was in mexico buying a pack of 3 condoms for 60 pesos which is about 2 bucks each, so if you're mexican and want to have sex and not have babies it's gonna cost you most of your daily income, here they give them away for free, there's also a large evangelical influence in most latin american countries. Maybe all those Ultra Right Wings Christian groups instead of encouraging idiots (who will believe that crock) at home to have more children they should be put their energy into massive contraceptive campaigns in Muslim countries, if they really wanted a challenge that would be it. Of course many of them would have to accept the idea that the writings in their bible slanted against contraception were products of a much different time and population levels, trouble is if you are going to accept that change to scripture then why stop there, there are all sorts of things that don't really apply to our lives today in the bibles and the Koran. At the end of Jarrod Diamond's book Collapse there are a couple of nearly identical world maps one showing environmentally rocked areas of the world and the other showing conflict hotspots, and since population generally has to do with just how screwed up nature and the resources are in an area... well.| 23959|23923|2010-09-15 13:55:28|h|Re: Permanent Magnet Alternator|Brent, I had a look at that homebrew windpower book, quite a brilliant design for a wind gen, I would think it would need to be sized down a bit for a boat though. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes, absolutely. Expensive, but far less than a wind generator, which is probably the same thing. I hope to find one in an autowrecker. A friend got his up to 3 volts AC by turning it by hand. Thanks for posting the photo. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > Brent was talking about these soom time ago and I was wondering if this is the type? > > Thank you, > > James > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERMANENT-MAGNET-ALTERNATOR-15531-64017-6C040-59250-/120619019005?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item1c15742afd > > > | 23960|23910|2010-09-15 14:05:46|h|Re: (ot) Boat Parts tools - cnc|VariCAD is a 3D/2D CAD system for mechanical engineering. In addition to standard tools for 3D modeling and 2D drafting, the CAD system provides support for parameters and geometric constraints, tools for shells, pipelines, sheet metal unbending and crash tests, assembly support, libraries of standard mechanical parts (ANSI, DIN) and symbols, mechanical part calculations and tools for working with bills of materials (BOM) and title blocks. VariCAD supports STEP, STL, IGES, DWG and DXF file formats. well the website claims it does, don't really know enough about the topic to say if its a good IGES model or not --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > > The only Q is does it makes good IGES models ? > Iges is a documented, interoperable 3D ! (which is vastly important) > file format. > > Just opened my big mill model file, made in Rhino (.3DM model) in > Mastercam X4, and it came up perfectly. > Need to learn Mastercam 5 axis, will take maybe a month or so. > Seems very easy so far. (Month or so, because I have maybe 5k hours in > 3D stuff, going back about 25 years). > Commercial IGEs files (timing belt pulleys) also opened perfectly in > MasterCan. > > And jut cleaned the solid 70x70x700 mm billets of tool steel, that I > need to drill for 10 mm (maybe ream them, too, for perfect alignment, > fit and finish) to hold the milling machine bridge in place. > Current L-shaped brackets (70x70x7 bt 700 mm long) flex when drilling > (drilling puts about 200 kg of load on table). > The new solid ones will not flex a lot. 4 of, about 45 kg in mass each. > I call them the "King Bolts". > Grin. > Big and Solid. > > I am about to start making boat parts Real Soon Now. > > > I've been playing with Varicad on ubuntu, there's a free 30 day trial > > from the website and key gens for it online, seems like a nice fully > > functional mechanical cad program, don't know if you can use it for > > your purposes for the cnc, but it's worth a look. > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23961|23936|2010-09-15 14:31:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines|On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 05:13:49PM -0000, h wrote: > > Since were on the topic of welders, could anyone explain to me the > concept behind 110v - 220v power, a while back I was helping a friend > at the campbell river docks were for some reason they don't run 220v > power to the power boxes and I made up a split pigtail plug that went > into two 110v 30amp sockets, the welder (AC stick) I was using has a > plug on in that looks like a regular (north american) 110v plug but is > larger, so three prongs one round one at the bottom and two flat > vertical ones one of which is slightly larger. I just wired both > neutral wires (white) together and both hots (black) together to the > corresponding color of wire connected to the welders plug. Don't > really understand why this worked or how this is 220v as it's just two > 110v in parallel but I didn't end up blowing the breaker and it would > weld just fine. Most 220v sockets have four holes, I'm assuming a > ground (green), a return (white) and two live wires (black and red) > but are these just two 110v? and how does this add up to 220v and > would one be able to get away with this with one of those 3-in-1 > inverter welders? It doesn't actually add up to 220v - but you still did the right thing. I haven't looked at any of these welders, but from the technical standpoint, there are a couple of ways to do it: 1) Use a Variac transformer with automatic switching gear to adjust to a range of input voltages, or 2) Use an autotransformer with a tap for each voltage. The reason I say you did the right thing is that, no matter what you use, output power is equal to the input power. Since the output power is constant, cutting the input voltage in half requires doubling the input amperage - and your single 110 circuit probably wouldn't be enough to power the welder. Mind you, the marina people would lose their marbles if they knew that you'd cross-connected two circuits... but what they don't know won't hurt'em, right? :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 23962|23936|2010-09-15 14:43:57|CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines|To us in the rest of the world, the us 220v is a weird duck (imho). What they do, is run 2 110v ac cycles in opposite phase. When you use the acual current from what the us calls the hot phases, the voltage difference betwen the 2 is 220v. Obviously, works fine. However, for your solution ... I think this only works because your 2 plugs were taken from different phases. And this is, I understand, commonly done to spread the load on the pedestals in marinas. Now, what happens when this is not done, as may be the case depending on the marina, I don´t know. Either they are parallel, which I think !? wont matter but wont work, or you short the two together ? It could be you ended up with 110v, but the welder runs on 110 as well. ? (Inverters often run on anything, more/less). My inverter (for milling machine) is one that will take in anything, anywhere in teh world, from 110 to 250, any 50,60 hz whatever, and come up with 3-phase at desired cycles (speed). I got one so no matter where I go I can run my machine from whatever is available. My tactic will be to buy a local plug, wire it in, and off we go. (Need to change to Hz on the inverter panel setup to avoid extra heat.) I have no idea if you can connect two ac lines parallel and get twice the amperage (probably, I guess). Would work fine in DC, but ac is different (depends on frequency). Anyone know ? As long as your measured voltage is 220, it will work just fine for the 3-1 inverter welders, after all this is how houses in the us get 220v for the stove, ac, etc. The rest of the world has nothing like that. We have ac, single phase, utp to 4 kW or so (25 amp fuse, maybe 30 sometimes for 6 kW), and 3-phase for whatever you can pay for. And pricing varies hugely, in europe. Some places the power co. will bring in whatever you want, free. Some places (spain) you pay for the street dig-up, upto 60kEUR, for upgrades. Sometimes you cant get it (at any price). Some places (finland) you pay for the poles and installation, and they (power co.) string any wire you want. 10 km is about 20kEUR. Many boating conversation for powerboats come up with these pigtails/adaptor things. Unknown in most of the rest of the world. A big plug for single phase, and a bigger one for 3-phase, and thats it. > Since were on the topic of welders, could anyone explain to me the > concept behind 110v - 220v power, a while back I was helping a friend > at the campbell river docks were for some reason they don't run 220v > power to the power boxes and I made up a split pigtail plug that went > into two 110v 30amp sockets, the welder (AC stick) I was using has a > plug on in that looks like a regular (north american) 110v plug but is > larger, so three prongs one round one at the bottom and two flat > vertical ones one of which is slightly larger. I just wired both > neutral wires (white) together and both hots (black) together to the > corresponding color of wire connected to the welders plug. Don't > really understand why this worked or how this is 220v as it's just two > 110v in parallel but I didn't end up blowing the breaker and it would > weld just fine. Most 220v sockets have four holes, I'm assuming a > ground (green), a return (white) and two live wires (black and red) > but are these just two 110v? and how does this add up to 220v and > would one be able to get away with this with one of those 3-in-1 > inverter welders? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23963|23963|2010-09-15 14:48:22|CNC 6-axis Designs|Brent Boats|I was asked (BBB group) about Bruce Roberts designs, esp. spray. I was not enthusiastic. BR is a good salesman, not designer. Some designs, esp. powerboats, may be ok, for the condo crowd. His support has a good rep, though. I recommendeed BS as a vastly superior design afa hull construction goes, just no comparison. Besides, Brent has made his extensive know-how and experience available to many, in many fora, for many years, and deserves all the credit (and sales) he can get. (We don´t always agree. But he is very good at his trade, and some things are a matter of taste.) No axe to grind, just an opinion. Cheers, Hannu| 23964|23936|2010-09-15 15:40:44|Matt Malone|Re: making Pigtails to run welders|There is a 220V/50Amp plug definition for welders that looks like giant 120V plug. My welder and my welder extention cord has them. I would check to make sure your welder does not actually draw more than 30 Amps (mine uses the entire 50 Amps) or that pigtail will could cause an immediate problem. If you are drawing less than 30 Amps, that pigtail works reasonably well if what is at the dock is actually 110V derived from one phase of 220V. What is done in a lot of commercial locations though is, they actually have 208V three phase, where the voltage from each phase to neutral is 120V. So there are three circuits, not two. There are ways to check using a meter and an extension cord, and taking careful notes to see if the power to the dock is 2 or 3 phase. The absence of 220 Volt plugs might be a good clue that the dock is using 3-phase 208V and not 220V power. If you connect between phases of a 3-phase system by accident, you get only 208 V. If you hook a welder to that 1) you will notice for the same setting, the stick is a little cold 2) you may be badly misbalancing the 3-phase power system and it can damage other equipment. I would be careful making pigtails like the one described to use at other people's facilities. I used to do that all the time in my own lab since I owned all of the nearby equipment, and knew the power system. If in doubt, I like Brent's weldernator. Worst case, you fry an old alternator. With the weldernator, there would be no chance of, for instance, damaging the inverter on the million-dollar yacht next door, and all of their electronics. Worse yet, hearing a cracking sound after you finish a bead, and poking your head out out of the hatch to see that million dollar yacht on fire. After you swim to shore, the fire is put out, and the fire investigator finds your pigtail on the remains of the dock, well, that is about it for the investigation. Matt ------------------------------------------------------- To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: haidan@... Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:13:49 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines Since were on the topic of welders, could anyone explain to me the concept behind 110v - 220v power, a while back I was helping a friend at the campbell river docks were for some reason they don't run 220v power to the power boxes and I made up a split pigtail plug that went into two 110v 30amp sockets, the welder (AC stick) I was using has a plug on in that looks like a regular (north american) 110v plug but is larger, so three prongs one round one at the bottom and two flat vertical ones one of which is slightly larger. I just wired both neutral wires (white) together and both hots (black) together to the corresponding color of wire connected to the welders plug. Don't really understand why this worked or how this is 220v as it's just two 110v in parallel but I didn't end up blowing the breaker and it would weld just fine. Most 220v sockets have four holes, I'm assuming a ground (green), a return (white) and two live wires (black and red) but are these just two 110v? and how does this add up to 220v and would one be able to get away with this with one of those 3-in-1 inverter welders? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 23965|23923|2010-09-15 15:41:44|brentswain38|Re: Permanent Magnet Alternator|I was initially enthusiastic about the homebrew wind generator and actualy began making parts. When I first saw the permanent magnet alternator, I though it made the home brew irrelevant for boats. If you find a permanent magnet alternator in an autowreckers for cheap it makes building your own redundant. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "h" wrote: > > Brent, I had a look at that homebrew windpower book, quite a brilliant design for a wind gen, I would think it would need to be sized down a bit for a boat though. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Yes, absolutely. Expensive, but far less than a wind generator, which is probably the same thing. I hope to find one in an autowrecker. A friend got his up to 3 volts AC by turning it by hand. Thanks for posting the photo. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > > > Brent was talking about these soom time ago and I was wondering if this is the type? > > > Thank you, > > > James > > > > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERMANENT-MAGNET-ALTERNATOR-15531-64017-6C040-59250-/120619019005?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item1c15742afd > > > > > > | 23966|23936|2010-09-15 15:46:21|brentswain38|Re: Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines|Luckily, I was at the Comox dock in 1976, when they began talking about wiring it. I suggested they take the 220 from the top of the pole to the dock which, fortunately, they did. Now anyone can plug in a buzzbox there. Now all we need to do is get rid of the fat, power tripping wharfinger there ( Atilla the Hen) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "h" wrote: > > Since were on the topic of welders, could anyone explain to me the concept behind 110v - 220v power, a while back I was helping a friend at the campbell river docks were for some reason they don't run 220v power to the power boxes and I made up a split pigtail plug that went into two 110v 30amp sockets, the welder (AC stick) I was using has a plug on in that looks like a regular (north american) 110v plug but is larger, so three prongs one round one at the bottom and two flat vertical ones one of which is slightly larger. I just wired both neutral wires (white) together and both hots (black) together to the corresponding color of wire connected to the welders plug. Don't really understand why this worked or how this is 220v as it's just two 110v in parallel but I didn't end up blowing the breaker and it would weld just fine. Most 220v sockets have four holes, I'm assuming a ground (green), a return (white) and two live wires (black and red) but are these just two 110v? and how does this add up to 220v and would one be able to get away with this with one of those 3-in-1 inverter welders? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Thanks for the reply I have a coworker that is interested in one and asked me > > what I thought about them and the only thing I know is you guys were using them. > > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: kimdxx > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, September 13, 2010 3:56:54 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines > > > >   > > > > Hi Aaron ... > > > > I've got a plasma-cutter/welding machine combo. Actually, it's a 3-in-1 unit: a > > 40-amp plasma cutter, 160-amp stick welder, and a 160-amp TIG welder. > > > > I haven't used its TIG functionality; but it's the best stick welder I've ever > > owned! And the plasma-cutting component is awesome - I've cut 8mm plate with it > > OK, and it's supposed to be able to cut up to 12mm! It very cleanly cuts the 3mm > > plate that I'm building my boat from like a hot knife through butter! > > > > I bought it about 8 months ago on eBay for AU$500 from an Australian eBay > > merchant. Here is a link to exactly the same welder I got: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/3ayd3d3 > > > > All the specs are on the above page. It's a DC inverter type, and so far it has > > been really great. I don't try to look after it or be careful with it, and > > nothing's broken on it yet. It definitely works as advertised, and I'm extremely > > pleased with it. I haven't had to make any warranty claims on it so far; but if > > I had to do so the place I bought it from also has a "bricks & mortar" shop, so > > I might be OK. > > > > I think it's Chinese-made, so identical machines (but branded differently) are > > probably available everywhere. > > > > Hope this helps! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction blog: http://kimdowl.blogspot.com/ > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai" wrote: > > > > > Several people were talking about purchasing one the plasma cutting/ welding > > >machines awhile back and I was wondering if they did and how ell the machines > > >were holding up performance and if any warranty repairs > > > were required? > > > > > > Aaron > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 23967|23923|2010-09-15 16:05:43|Paul Wilson|Re: Permanent Magnet Alternator|I am very skeptical that an alternator designed for high rpm automotive use will have an output suitable for wind generation at the required low rpms. Normally, any attempt to use automotive alternators for wind generation has disappointing output unless you rewind the alternator. The surplus permanent magnet motors traditionally converted to wind generators were high voltage and are quite hard to find now due to demand. The one I had was 72 volt output at about 1000 rpm. At low rpms it worked well. Hopefully I am proven wrong. Nevertheless, it's interesting to see of these new PM alternators. Does anyone know how they limit and control their output with no field winding? If you put one on your engine, do you need a special regulator? Cheers, Paul On 9/16/2010 7:41 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > > I was initially enthusiastic about the homebrew wind generator and > actualy began making parts. When I first saw the permanent magnet > alternator, I though it made the home brew irrelevant for boats. If > you find a permanent magnet alternator in an autowreckers for cheap it > makes building your own redundant. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "h" wrote: > > > > Brent, I had a look at that homebrew windpower book, quite a > brilliant design for a wind gen, I would think it would need to be > sized down a bit for a boat though. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > Yes, absolutely. Expensive, but far less than a wind generator, > which is probably the same thing. I hope to find one in an > autowrecker. A friend got his up to 3 volts AC by turning it by hand. > Thanks for posting the photo. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent was talking about these soom time ago and I was wondering > if this is the type? > > > > Thank you, > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERMANENT-MAGNET-ALTERNATOR-15531-64017-6C040-59250-/120619019005?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item1c15742afd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3135 - Release Date: 09/15/10 06:34:00 > | 23968|23914|2010-09-15 21:27:15|coreyzzzz2000|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|Thanks everyone for sharing your wisdom and experience. After reading Vigor's book, everything will definitely be tied down! It's nice that conventional measures give Brent's design such good marks. Any idea how a twin-keel would fare compared to a full keel in rough water? How does a steel 36' do in light airs? (Or is it just time to start the motor?) I received the book "Arctic Odyssey" in the mail yesterday afternoon. Opened it up and ended up reading it in one sitting!! Impressive that Bushnell has built so many origami boats and continues to do so. A little googling led me to the MOM site and his relationship to that project. The pics of both MOM and his boat are beautiful testaments to what can be done! To be honest I am struggling with the cost to build vs. buying a good used boat. Maybe I will end up doing both, eventually.| 23969|23914|2010-09-15 22:17:11|mickeyolaf|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|1. If u are rich and money is no object buy a boat. 2. If u are rich and money is no object build a boat > "To be honest I am struggling with the cost to build vs. buying a good used boat. Maybe I will end up doing both, eventually." > | 23970|23923|2010-09-16 15:28:08|brentswain38|Re: Permanent Magnet Alternator|If a friend can get 3 volts out by turning the pulley by hand , I doubt a blade will have any problem getting 14 volts out of it. There is a plastic regulator pack, which one should pick up when you buy one at the auto wreckers. Otherwise, it's a matter of keeping an eye on it while using it and tying it off when the voltage reaches a certain level, like the KISS wind generator . Perhaps one can hook a zener diode to an alarm, to let you know when you reach that voltage> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I am very skeptical that an alternator designed for high rpm > automotive use will have an output suitable for wind generation at the > required low rpms. Normally, any attempt to use automotive alternators > for wind generation has disappointing output unless you rewind the > alternator. The surplus permanent magnet motors traditionally converted > to wind generators were high voltage and are quite hard to find now due > to demand. The one I had was 72 volt output at about 1000 rpm. At low > rpms it worked well. Hopefully I am proven wrong. > > Nevertheless, it's interesting to see of these new PM alternators. Does > anyone know how they limit and control their output with no field > winding? If you put one on your engine, do you need a special regulator? > > Cheers, Paul > > On 9/16/2010 7:41 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > I was initially enthusiastic about the homebrew wind generator and > > actualy began making parts. When I first saw the permanent magnet > > alternator, I though it made the home brew irrelevant for boats. If > > you find a permanent magnet alternator in an autowreckers for cheap it > > makes building your own redundant. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "h" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, I had a look at that homebrew windpower book, quite a > > brilliant design for a wind gen, I would think it would need to be > > sized down a bit for a boat though. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Yes, absolutely. Expensive, but far less than a wind generator, > > which is probably the same thing. I hope to find one in an > > autowrecker. A friend got his up to 3 volts AC by turning it by hand. > > Thanks for posting the photo. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Brent was talking about these soom time ago and I was wondering > > if this is the type? > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERMANENT-MAGNET-ALTERNATOR-15531-64017-6C040-59250-/120619019005?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item1c15742afd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3135 - Release Date: 09/15/10 06:34:00 > > > | 23971|23963|2010-09-16 15:31:05|brentswain38|Re: Brent Boats|Thanks for the kind words. I have long felt that if we contribute regularly to the Karma Bank, we will always find enough for our needs( but not enough for everyone's greeds.) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > > I was asked (BBB group) about Bruce Roberts designs, esp. spray. > I was not enthusiastic. > BR is a good salesman, not designer. > Some designs, esp. powerboats, may be ok, for the condo crowd. > His support has a good rep, though. > > I recommendeed BS as a vastly superior design afa hull construction > goes, just no comparison. > > Besides, Brent has made his extensive know-how and experience available > to many, in many fora, for many years, and deserves all the credit (and > sales) he can get. > (We don´t always agree. But he is very good at his trade, and some > things are a matter of taste.) > > No axe to grind, just an opinion. > Cheers, > Hannu > | 23972|23923|2010-09-16 15:40:11|Paul Wilson|Re: Permanent Magnet Alternator|3 volts peak to peak, 3volt rms or 3 volts DC? With what load? I could probably get 3 volts out of a standard alternator turning it by hand if I had field voltage to it. Keep in mind a standard alternator will climb to well over 100 volts without a load. On 9/17/2010 7:27 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > > If a friend can get 3 volts out by turning the pulley by hand , I > doubt a blade will have any problem getting 14 volts out of it. > There is a plastic regulator pack, which one should pick up when you > buy one at the auto wreckers. > Otherwise, it's a matter of keeping an eye on it while using it and > tying it off when the voltage reaches a certain level, like the KISS > wind generator . Perhaps one can hook a zener diode to an alarm, to > let you know when you reach that voltage> > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I am very skeptical that an alternator designed for high rpm > > automotive use will have an output suitable for wind generation at the > > required low rpms. Normally, any attempt to use automotive alternators > > for wind generation has disappointing output unless you rewind the > > alternator. The surplus permanent magnet motors traditionally converted > > to wind generators were high voltage and are quite hard to find now due > > to demand. The one I had was 72 volt output at about 1000 rpm. At low > > rpms it worked well. Hopefully I am proven wrong. > > > > Nevertheless, it's interesting to see of these new PM alternators. Does > > anyone know how they limit and control their output with no field > > winding? If you put one on your engine, do you need a special regulator? > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > On 9/16/2010 7:41 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > I was initially enthusiastic about the homebrew wind generator and > > > actualy began making parts. When I first saw the permanent magnet > > > alternator, I though it made the home brew irrelevant for boats. If > > > you find a permanent magnet alternator in an autowreckers for > cheap it > > > makes building your own redundant. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "h" wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, I had a look at that homebrew windpower book, quite a > > > brilliant design for a wind gen, I would think it would need to be > > > sized down a bit for a boat though. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Yes, absolutely. Expensive, but far less than a wind generator, > > > which is probably the same thing. I hope to find one in an > > > autowrecker. A friend got his up to 3 volts AC by turning it by hand. > > > Thanks for posting the photo. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent was talking about these soom time ago and I was wondering > > > if this is the type? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERMANENT-MAGNET-ALTERNATOR-15531-64017-6C040-59250-/120619019005?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item1c15742afd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3135 - Release Date: > 09/15/10 06:34:00 > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3137 - Release Date: 09/16/10 06:34:00 > | 23973|23914|2010-09-16 15:43:26|brentswain38|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|I could never have afforded the boat I have, whether I bought it, or hired others to build it. So I did the work myself, and was sailing for $6,000, in my 31. Anyone can get a boat for drastically less than buying one, as long as you avoid paying others to work on it and do most of the work yourself. The cost is porportionate to how much you do yourself and how much you pay others to do. It's also porportionate to how much new stuff you use, and how much you scrounge. Most builders have checked out the used boat market, and having concluded that only works if you are simply able to accept any boat. If you want a good boat, then often the only way to get what you want is to build it yourself. There is a lot of crap for sale on the used boat market , but it is mostly crap. A friend told people they could get out cruising for cheap, "IF" they used used sails, galv rigging , scrounged materials, etc etc. Then people would go out , hire people to do everything , line the boat inside and out with teak, buy new aluminium masts and rigs with new stainless rigging, buy new sails , etc etc, then bitch about the fact that it was not cheap. If all else fails, follow the directions. Skip the directions and any problems you have are of your own making. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > 1. If u are rich and money is no object buy a boat. > > 2. If u are rich and money is no object build a boat > > > > > > "To be honest I am struggling with the cost to build vs. buying a good used boat. Maybe I will end up doing both, eventually." > > > | 23974|23936|2010-09-16 16:18:45|h|Re: making Pigtails to run welders|well, the finger wasn't anything giant and all 3 of the power booths were all connected to the same wires so I don't think I'd cross any of them wrongly, especially since I was operating a pretty closed system, I mean I only dropped the stinger in the water a few times ;} But I see your point. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > There is a 220V/50Amp plug definition for welders that looks like giant 120V plug. My welder and my welder extention cord has them. I would check to make sure your welder does not actually draw more than 30 Amps (mine uses the entire 50 Amps) or that pigtail will could cause an immediate problem. > > If you are drawing less than 30 Amps, that pigtail works reasonably well if what is at the dock is actually 110V derived from one phase of 220V. > > What is done in a lot of commercial locations though is, they actually have 208V three phase, where the voltage from each phase to neutral is 120V. So there are three circuits, not two. There are ways to check using a meter and an extension cord, and taking careful notes to see if the power to the dock is 2 or 3 phase. > > The absence of 220 Volt plugs might be a good clue that the dock is using 3-phase 208V and not 220V power. > > > > If you connect between phases of a 3-phase system by accident, you get only 208 V. If you hook a welder to that 1) you will notice for the same setting, the stick is a little cold 2) you may be badly misbalancing the 3-phase power system and it can damage other equipment. > > I would be careful making pigtails like the one described to use at other people's facilities. I used to do that all the time in my own lab since I owned all of the nearby equipment, and knew the power system. If in doubt, I like Brent's weldernator. Worst case, you fry an old alternator. With the weldernator, there would be no chance of, for instance, damaging the inverter on the million-dollar yacht next door, and all of their electronics. Worse yet, hearing a cracking sound after you finish a bead, and poking your head out out of the hatch to see that million dollar yacht on fire. After you swim to shore, the fire is put out, and the fire investigator finds your pigtail on the remains of the dock, well, that is about it for the investigation. > > Matt > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: haidan@... > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:13:49 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Multi use welding - Plasma cutting Machines > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since > were on the topic of welders, could anyone explain to me the concept > behind 110v - 220v power, a while back I was helping a friend at the > campbell river docks were for some reason they don't run 220v power to > the power boxes and I made up a split pigtail plug that went into two > 110v 30amp sockets, the welder (AC stick) I was using has a plug on in > that looks like a regular (north american) 110v plug but is larger, so > three prongs one round one at the bottom and two flat vertical ones one > of which is slightly larger. I just wired both neutral wires (white) > together and both hots (black) together to the corresponding color of > wire connected to the welders plug. Don't really understand why this > worked or how this is 220v as it's just two 110v in parallel but I > didn't end up blowing the breaker and it would weld just fine. Most > 220v sockets have four holes, I'm assuming a ground (green), a return > (white) and two live wires (black and red) but are these just two 110v? > and how does this add up to 220v and would one be able to get away with > this with one of those 3-in-1 inverter welders? > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 23975|23923|2010-09-16 16:20:33|Paul Wilson|Re: Permanent Magnet Alternator|Sorry, meant to say without a load and unregulated..... On 9/17/2010 7:40 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > 3 volts peak to peak, 3volt rms or 3 volts DC? With what load? I could > probably get 3 volts out of a standard alternator turning it by hand if > I had field voltage to it. Keep in mind a standard alternator will climb > to well over 100 volts without a load. > > On 9/17/2010 7:27 AM, brentswain38 wrote: >> If a friend can get 3 volts out by turning the pulley by hand , I >> doubt a blade will have any problem getting 14 volts out of it. >> There is a plastic regulator pack, which one should pick up when you >> buy one at the auto wreckers. >> Otherwise, it's a matter of keeping an eye on it while using it and >> tying it off when the voltage reaches a certain level, like the KISS >> wind generator . Perhaps one can hook a zener diode to an alarm, to >> let you know when you reach that voltage> > | 23976|23914|2010-09-16 16:33:45|h|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|I can get my boat to go a knot or so in some wind like 4-6 and maybe a 2 knots at times, it's sort of temperamental around here at that strength which is the most annoying part --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "coreyzzzz2000" wrote: > > Thanks everyone for sharing your wisdom and experience. After reading Vigor's book, everything will definitely be tied down! > > It's nice that conventional measures give Brent's design such good marks. > > Any idea how a twin-keel would fare compared to a full keel in rough water? > > > How does a steel 36' do in light airs? (Or is it just time to start the motor?) > > I received the book "Arctic Odyssey" in the mail yesterday afternoon. Opened it up and ended up reading it in one sitting!! Impressive that Bushnell has built so many origami boats and continues to do so. A little googling led me to the MOM site and his relationship to that project. The pics of both MOM and his boat are beautiful testaments to what can be done! > > To be honest I am struggling with the cost to build vs. buying a good used boat. Maybe I will end up doing both, eventually. > | 23977|23977|2010-09-16 18:06:44|ANDREW AIREY|Multi use welding|In the UK we have a 3 phase supply at 440volts - typical industrial supply currents being 60 or 100amps.This is split for domestic purposes into 3 supplies(to 3 different properties)at 30amps max.The problem if you wanted to run a machine (lathe,sawbench or whatever)off the domestic supply was that motors over 3/4hp were like hens teeth - nonexistent.Also the Electricity Board were a bit iffy about some installations - they didn't like wired in welders because they claimed that they mase the meters run backwards.At least you can now get converters which generate an artificial 3 phase and so use industrial motors cheers Andy Airey| 23978|23914|2010-09-16 23:57:35|James Pronk|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|I bought a nice boat very cheep, I reattached the keel fixed all the blisters and put on an epoxy bearer coat then painted it. I removed all the hardware and repaired the deck then painted the deck. I replaced most of the standing and running rigging. I have rebuilt the galley. I am now redoing all the tabs that hold the bulk heads to the hull. My boat looks great but in the end I still have a piece of crap fiberglass boat! James P.S. It looks like it will be the spring when I start to build if all goes to plan. --- On Wed, 9/15/10, mickeyolaf wrote: From: mickeyolaf Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 10:16 PM   1. If u are rich and money is no object buy a boat. 2. If u are rich and money is no object build a boat > "To be honest I am struggling with the cost to build vs. buying a good used boat. Maybe I will end up doing both, eventually." > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23979|23914|2010-09-17 08:59:04|scott|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|We have done the used boat route because we got a DE38 for just over 8 grand in usable but worn condition. At least it was usable till we started refurbishing it. :) We will end up with about 20 grand in it totally after fixing her up doing all the work ourselves. That includes the 400+ watts of solar panels and charge controller, repainting decks and new nonskid. Going through and putting a new bigger battery bank and cables in on a bus bar system. Totally redoing all hoses, filter housings and filters and fuel lines on the engine. Ripping out the head and holding tank and all hoses and putting a composting head in.. (best thing we ever did. The composting head rocks) Installing port light shields and lots of fans and solar fans for ventilation. Refurbishing of the faucets and some of the water plumbing. Probably a water maker.. Also some changes in the running rigging. The key to doing all this has been looking for the deals, used equipment given to us, doing the work ourselves and only buying new what we absolutely can't get used or on sale. I still wish I could have built a brent boat but for right now I simply don't have that kind of energy or time and I want to go sailing now not in a couple or more years from now. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I bought a nice boat very cheep, I reattached the keel fixed all the blisters and put on an epoxy bearer coat then painted it. I removed all the hardware and repaired the deck then painted the deck. I replaced most of the standing and running rigging. I have rebuilt the galley. I am now redoing all the tabs that hold the bulk heads to the hull. > My boat looks great but in the end I still have a piece of crap fiberglass boat! > James > P.S. It looks like it will be the spring when I start to build if all goes to plan. > > | 23980|23914|2010-09-17 15:43:36|brentswain38|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|The keel is the centre around which a boat rolls. Twin keels contradict each other as to which will be the centre and thus drastically reduce rythmic rolling. Cruise ships use them as roll dampers. Stability is the same as for a single keeler with the same draft. Twin keels have more tripping action when hit by a beam sea, which is offset by the tripping action being much higher up. Twin keelers lose the tankage one gets in the back of a single keel, but there is plenty of room below the wheelhouse floor, for tankage. A twin keeler , being so easy to clean , will spend more of her cruising time sailing with a clean hull ,in areas of large tides. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "h" wrote: > > I can get my boat to go a knot or so in some wind like 4-6 and maybe a 2 knots at times, it's sort of temperamental around here at that strength which is the most annoying part > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "coreyzzzz2000" wrote: > > > > Thanks everyone for sharing your wisdom and experience. After reading Vigor's book, everything will definitely be tied down! > > > > It's nice that conventional measures give Brent's design such good marks. > > > > Any idea how a twin-keel would fare compared to a full keel in rough water? > > > > > > How does a steel 36' do in light airs? (Or is it just time to start the motor?) > > > > I received the book "Arctic Odyssey" in the mail yesterday afternoon. Opened it up and ended up reading it in one sitting!! Impressive that Bushnell has built so many origami boats and continues to do so. A little googling led me to the MOM site and his relationship to that project. The pics of both MOM and his boat are beautiful testaments to what can be done! > > > > To be honest I am struggling with the cost to build vs. buying a good used boat. Maybe I will end up doing both, eventually. > > > | 23981|23914|2010-09-17 19:09:31|David Frantz|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|Nice report! If you are sailing for 30 grand that seems like a very good deal to me. Not that I've spent much time buying boats, but obviously the marjet is depressed right now. Post some pics if you get a chance. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Sep 17, 2010, at 8:53 AM, scott wrote: > We have done the used boat route because we got a DE38 for just over 8 grand in usable but worn condition. At least it was usable till we started refurbishing it. :) We will end up with about 20 grand in it totally after fixing her up doing all the work ourselves. That includes the 400+ watts of solar panels and charge controller, repainting decks and new nonskid. Going through and putting a new bigger battery bank and cables in on a bus bar system. Totally redoing all hoses, filter housings and filters and fuel lines on the engine. Ripping out the head and holding tank and all hoses and putting a composting head in.. (best thing we ever did. The composting head rocks) Installing port light shields and lots of fans and solar fans for ventilation. Refurbishing of the faucets and some of the water plumbing. Probably a water maker.. Also some changes in the running rigging. > > The key to doing all this has been looking for the deals, used equipment given to us, doing the work ourselves and only buying new what we absolutely can't get used or on sale. > > > I still wish I could have built a brent boat but for right now I simply don't have that kind of energy or time and I want to go sailing now not in a couple or more years from now. > > scott > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: >> >> I bought a nice boat very cheep, I reattached the keel fixed all the blisters and put on an epoxy bearer coat then painted it. I removed all the hardware and repaired the deck then painted the deck. I replaced most of the standing and running rigging. I have rebuilt the galley. I am now redoing all the tabs that hold the bulk heads to the hull. >> My boat looks great but in the end I still have a piece of crap fiberglass boat! >> James >> P.S. It looks like it will be the spring when I start to build if all goes to plan. >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23982|23914|2010-09-18 08:02:29|scott|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|lol..no the 20 grand included the purchase price.. Actually right now we have everything I listed already in hand even if not all of it is installed and have spent maybe 12 grand total including buying the boat. I am estimating 20 grand total just because there are still some projects we want to do such as maybe replacing the standing rigging with dynema dux, a wind vane and small autopilot that uses the windvane, watermaker, etc.. scott you can see some of the write ups of our projects on the boat on my website http://www.scottcarle.com/wordpress or on the http://www.downeasteryachts.com website... for some reason the website isn't viewable in Internet explorer so you will need to use firefox or some other browser. I am working on fixing that. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Nice report! > > If you are sailing for 30 grand that seems like a very good deal to me. Not that I've spent much time buying boats, but obviously the marjet is depressed right now. > > Post some pics if you get a chance. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Sep 17, 2010, at 8:53 AM, scott wrote: > > > We have done the used boat route because we got a DE38 for just over 8 grand in usable but worn condition. At least it was usable till we started refurbishing it. :) We will end up with about 20 grand in it totally after fixing her up doing all the work ourselves. That includes the 400+ watts of solar panels and charge controller, repainting decks and new nonskid. Going through and putting a new bigger battery bank and cables in on a bus bar system. Totally redoing all hoses, filter housings and filters and fuel lines on the engine. Ripping out the head and holding tank and all hoses and putting a composting head in.. (best thing we ever did. The composting head rocks) Installing port light shields and lots of fans and solar fans for ventilation. Refurbishing of the faucets and some of the water plumbing. Probably a water maker.. Also some changes in the running rigging. > > > > The key to doing all this has been looking for the deals, used equipment given to us, doing the work ourselves and only buying new what we absolutely can't get used or on sale. > > > > > > I still wish I could have built a brent boat but for right now I simply don't have that kind of energy or time and I want to go sailing now not in a couple or more years from now. > > > > scott > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > >> > >> I bought a nice boat very cheep, I reattached the keel fixed all the blisters and put on an epoxy bearer coat then painted it. I removed all the hardware and repaired the deck then painted the deck. I replaced most of the standing and running rigging. I have rebuilt the galley. I am now redoing all the tabs that hold the bulk heads to the hull. > >> My boat looks great but in the end I still have a piece of crap fiberglass boat! > >> James > >> P.S. It looks like it will be the spring when I start to build if all goes to plan. > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 23983|23914|2010-09-18 19:06:47|coreyzzzz2000|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The keel is the centre around which a boat rolls. Twin keels contradict each other as to which will be the centre and thus drastically reduce rythmic rolling. Cruise ships use them as roll dampers. > Stability is the same as for a single keeler with the same draft. Twin keels have more tripping action when hit by a beam sea, which is offset by the tripping action being much higher up. Twin keelers lose the tankage one gets in the back of a single keel, but there is plenty of room below the wheelhouse floor, for tankage. My current boat is a 19' Caprice twin keel. Your comments about reduced rolling and tripping action are spot on. Both the wife and I enjoy the boats natural motion, although it took a few trips to get used to it's initial tenderness. A few years ago we were motoring up a narrow canyon with bare poles on Lake Powell when one of those 4-engined cigarette boats blasted by us at 50 knots or so, followed soon by a large planing tour boat (60 footer). We took the brunt of both beam on and rolled a little more than 90 (The mast tip missed touching the water by inches) degrees before popping back up with our gear strewn from hell to breakfast! Once righted the boat rode it out quite well for her size, which gave us a big boost in our confidence in her. We love the little trailer boat being a twin keeler because it allows us to launch in shallower water than most and to pull right up on the beach to camp at night. We've only run aground once, but we were easily able to back out with the motor in reverse, while a power boat nearby had to call for a tow. (The jerk watched us motor right into the bar he was stuck on, never once trying to let us know that we were heading for trouble, then laughed when we hit, else we would have offered assistance.)| 23984|23914|2010-09-18 19:32:54|coreyzzzz2000|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > lol..no the 20 grand included the purchase price.. Actually right now we have everything I listed already in hand even if not all of it is installed and have spent maybe 12 grand total including buying the boat. I am estimating 20 grand total just because there are still some projects we want to do such as maybe replacing the standing rigging with dynema dux, a wind vane and small autopilot that uses the windvane, watermaker, etc.. > scott > Nice. Your weblog looks fine in my browser.:) This is where the choice gets hard for me. I have a large area to work, welding equipment, the extravagance of a plasma cutter, grinders, power, and experience with steel. My weak points are sailing experience, sandblasting, foaming, and transporting the finished product (depending on size and weight). By the time I buy an old boat and put the time and money into upgrading/restoring the rigging, sails, systems, etc... would I be better off just building in steel and knowing that the components I've welded on are not going to part ways 900 miles into the journey? (I realize things break on steel boats, but the overall integrity is unquestionably there) Especially when the money used for outfitting will be similar in both cases. Of course a real bargain may be out there, but with my lack of experience it would be a gamble I'm not sure is worth betting my family's life on.| 23985|23914|2010-09-18 21:21:10|brentswain38|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|My book tells you how to build a 540 GPD watermaker for under$1,000 and a windvane for transom hung rudders. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > lol..no the 20 grand included the purchase price.. Actually right now we have everything I listed already in hand even if not all of it is installed and have spent maybe 12 grand total including buying the boat. I am estimating 20 grand total just because there are still some projects we want to do such as maybe replacing the standing rigging with dynema dux, a wind vane and small autopilot that uses the windvane, watermaker, etc.. > scott > > you can see some of the write ups of our projects on the boat on my website http://www.scottcarle.com/wordpress or on the http://www.downeasteryachts.com website... for some reason the website isn't viewable in Internet explorer so you will need to use firefox or some other browser. I am working on fixing that. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > > > Nice report! > > > > If you are sailing for 30 grand that seems like a very good deal to me. Not that I've spent much time buying boats, but obviously the marjet is depressed right now. > > > > Post some pics if you get a chance. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Sep 17, 2010, at 8:53 AM, scott wrote: > > > > > We have done the used boat route because we got a DE38 for just over 8 grand in usable but worn condition. At least it was usable till we started refurbishing it. :) We will end up with about 20 grand in it totally after fixing her up doing all the work ourselves. That includes the 400+ watts of solar panels and charge controller, repainting decks and new nonskid. Going through and putting a new bigger battery bank and cables in on a bus bar system. Totally redoing all hoses, filter housings and filters and fuel lines on the engine. Ripping out the head and holding tank and all hoses and putting a composting head in.. (best thing we ever did. The composting head rocks) Installing port light shields and lots of fans and solar fans for ventilation. Refurbishing of the faucets and some of the water plumbing. Probably a water maker.. Also some changes in the running rigging. > > > > > > The key to doing all this has been looking for the deals, used equipment given to us, doing the work ourselves and only buying new what we absolutely can't get used or on sale. > > > > > > > > > I still wish I could have built a brent boat but for right now I simply don't have that kind of energy or time and I want to go sailing now not in a couple or more years from now. > > > > > > scott > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > >> > > >> I bought a nice boat very cheep, I reattached the keel fixed all the blisters and put on an epoxy bearer coat then painted it. I removed all the hardware and repaired the deck then painted the deck. I replaced most of the standing and running rigging. I have rebuilt the galley. I am now redoing all the tabs that hold the bulk heads to the hull. > > >> My boat looks great but in the end I still have a piece of crap fiberglass boat! > > >> James > > >> P.S. It looks like it will be the spring when I start to build if all goes to plan. > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 23986|23914|2010-09-19 17:54:06|h|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|I had a bit of a surprise in a tide rip just south of pender, no wind, motoring and the rip spun me 45 degrees and knocked me down to the point where the cap rail was in the water then... nothing just righted and motored on (and my motor DID NOT die as it usually does in times of need ) the westsail 34 behind me had no problems is this what you mean by tripping? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "coreyzzzz2000" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > The keel is the centre around which a boat rolls. Twin keels contradict each other as to which will be the centre and thus drastically reduce rythmic rolling. Cruise ships use them as roll dampers. > > Stability is the same as for a single keeler with the same draft. Twin keels have more tripping action when hit by a beam sea, which is offset by the tripping action being much higher up. Twin keelers lose the tankage one gets in the back of a single keel, but there is plenty of room below the wheelhouse floor, for tankage. > > > My current boat is a 19' Caprice twin keel. Your comments about reduced rolling and tripping action are spot on. > > Both the wife and I enjoy the boats natural motion, although it took a few trips to get used to it's initial tenderness. > > A few years ago we were motoring up a narrow canyon with bare poles on Lake Powell when one of those 4-engined cigarette boats blasted by us at 50 knots or so, followed soon by a large planing tour boat (60 footer). We took the brunt of both beam on and rolled a little more than 90 (The mast tip missed touching the water by inches) degrees before popping back up with our gear strewn from hell to breakfast! Once righted the boat rode it out quite well for her size, which gave us a big boost in our confidence in her. We love the little trailer boat being a twin keeler because it allows us to launch in shallower water than most and to pull right up on the beach to camp at night. We've only run aground once, but we were easily able to back out with the motor in reverse, while a power boat nearby had to call for a tow. (The jerk watched us motor right into the bar he was stuck on, never once trying to let us know that we were heading for trouble, then laughed when we hit, else we would have offered assistance.) > | 23987|23987|2010-09-20 17:02:50|john|snatch blocks|I have found some nice photos of brent blocks. Can anyone direct me to photos of brent snatch blocks, thanks, john| 23988|23988|2010-09-20 19:45:29|jhess314|aluminum trimaran?|I've been searching through this forum looking for information about whether it is practical to build the hull of a cruising 35'-40' trimaran out of aluminum using the origami technique? So far I've only found a few references to aluminum trimarans, and none actually designed or built. I suppose that not finding anything definitive is an answer in itself, but I thought I'd ask anyway. I'm more interested in a tri that could carry the load the a cruiser would require, rather than being light and fast. Thanks, John| 23989|23914|2010-09-20 21:20:21|coreyzzzz2000|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "h" wrote: > > I had a bit of a surprise in a tide rip just south of pender, no wind, motoring and the rip spun me 45 degrees and knocked me down to the point where the cap rail was in the water then... nothing just righted and motored on (and my motor DID NOT die as it usually does in times of need ) the westsail 34 behind me had no problems is this what you mean by tripping? > Yeah.. I take 'tripping' to mean propensity towards a roll when hit beam on with a wave. I believe our little episode was caused by the waves hitting both keels 'just' right, and like yours we popped up in the confused waves after that and motored on like nothing happened. Interesting.| 23990|23988|2010-09-20 21:40:09|David Frantz|Re: aluminum trimaran?|Building a trimaran out of Aluminum would be just another engineering effort. Not finding any references to design using Origami techniques means nothing. Believe it or not a lot of people still want nothing to do with the web. So I wouldn't give up on looking. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Sep 20, 2010, at 7:45 PM, jhess314 wrote: > I've been searching through this forum looking for information about whether it is practical to build the hull of a cruising 35'-40' trimaran out of aluminum using the origami technique? So far I've only found a few references to aluminum trimarans, and none actually designed or built. I suppose that not finding anything definitive is an answer in itself, but I thought I'd ask anyway. I'm more interested in a tri that could carry the load the a cruiser would require, rather than being light and fast. > Thanks, > John > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 23991|23988|2010-09-20 23:09:04|Paul Wilson|Re: aluminum trimaran?|I don't see why it is not possible but with thin plate, welding is tricky and distortion is probably the reason few if any are built. Plywood or composite is probably easier. Using thicker plate, anything is possible. Although larger than what you want, there are catamarans I have seen that appear to be "origami-like" in aluminum with round bilges and few frames. I saw one in the Caribbean and I was impressed. Google Easton catamarans. The Alia catamarans are small welded aluminum cats designed for fishing in Samoa. The hulls are made from long sheets with a curve bent longitudinally to form a round bilge. They are another(smaller) example of an aluminum multihull that is built from large sheets. http://www.sprep.org/att/IRC/eCOPIES/Countries/Samoa/63.pdf Note, if you are trying to search anything "aluminum", it is also worth trying the English spelling "aluminium" as well. You always seem to get different matches. Cheers, Paul On 9/21/2010 11:45 AM, jhess314 wrote: > > I've been searching through this forum looking for information about > whether it is practical to build the hull of a cruising 35'-40' > trimaran out of aluminum using the origami technique? So far I've only > found a few references to aluminum trimarans, and none actually > designed or built. I suppose that not finding anything definitive is > an answer in itself, but I thought I'd ask anyway. I'm more interested > in a tri that could carry the load the a cruiser would require, rather > than being light and fast. > Thanks, > John > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3147 - Release Date: 09/20/10 18:35:00 > | 23992|23914|2010-09-21 01:24:28|mickeyolaf|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|All I was saying is u have to have lots of uncommitted cash to build a boat. There are people here who have frugally finished their SW 36's who have said their boats cost $80,000.00. That's $3333 a month over two years. $1666/m over four. $1666 a month of after tax $'s is a lot of money. Anybody who after paying their bills still has $1666 a month left over is rich as far as I am concerned. You can make it $833 a month for 8 years but still a big commitment of monthly income. I don't have $833 left over every month. If I did my wife would eventually find out and I would have $8.33 left over. So to build a boat u have to be wealthy, have a lot cash in the bank or a great income that's not already spent. In my case I worked overtime but now my back is sore. I think lack of $ is the main reason so many home built boat projects wallow in dust and why so many talk about building and never do. I know now that my boat will take 10 years. Why? Because it seems it's predetermined for me that as soon as I have non-committed $'s available for the boat that the transmission in my truck will go or I will need a new furnace. Brent, I'm not bitching. Just facing the facts of the costs of building. We all envy your frugality. But I want teak bulkheads, an aluminum mast, a water filter and a furnace. Men all have trouble taking direction. That why none of us read them until we can't get something to work. If I worked in a BBQ manufacturing plant I would always put a couple of extra screws and bolts in the box on purpose. Just for those guys who don't read the directions. They'd be scratching their heads bald trying to figure out what those extras fastenings were for. We all take different routes to get to the same end. If we didn't we'd still be hunting with spears. I will finish in spite of my stainless steel rigging. P.S. I bought a new stainless Norsesman 5/16 terminal on Saturday for $10. Now that is scrounging as far as I am concerned. I may sleep with it tonight or wear it around my neck to keep committed. "If u are rich and money is no object build a boat". --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I could never have afforded the boat I have, whether I bought it, or hired others to build it. So I did the work myself, and was sailing for $6,000, in my 31. > Anyone can get a boat for drastically less than buying one, as long as you avoid paying others to work on it and do most of the work yourself. > The cost is porportionate to how much you do yourself and how much you pay others to do. > It's also porportionate to how much new stuff you use, and how much you scrounge. > Most builders have checked out the used boat market, and having concluded that only works if you are simply able to accept any boat. If you want a good boat, then often the only way to get what you want is to build it yourself. There is a lot of crap for sale on the used boat market , but it is mostly crap. > A friend told people they could get out cruising for cheap, "IF" they used used sails, galv rigging , scrounged materials, etc etc. Then people would go out , hire people to do everything , line the boat inside and out with teak, buy new aluminium masts and rigs with new stainless rigging, buy new sails , etc etc, then bitch about the fact that it was not cheap. > If all else fails, follow the directions. Skip the directions and any problems you have are of your own making. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > 1. If u are rich and money is no object buy a boat. > > > > 2. If u are rich and money is no object build a boat > > > > > > > > > > > "To be honest I am struggling with the cost to build vs. buying a good used boat. Maybe I will end up doing both, eventually." > > > > > > | 23993|23914|2010-09-21 02:03:54|brentswain38|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|I had $4,000 when I started my 31 , and $40 when I launched a month later. I did a couple more hulls for cash , and when I got back I spent a total of $6,000 by the time I moved aboard and got her sailing.If I had waited until I had enough to finish her, or waited until she was absolutely finished, I would never have gone sailing. Ditto my first and second boat. Haidan's boat was anything but finished , but he has a lot of fun sailing her, which is what it is all about. You can build those poured sockets in my book for under a buck, in stainless if you want. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > All I was saying is u have to have lots of uncommitted cash to build a boat. > There are people here who have frugally finished their SW 36's who have said their boats cost $80,000.00. > That's $3333 a month over two years. $1666/m over four. $1666 a month of after tax $'s is a lot of money. > Anybody who after paying their bills still has $1666 a month left over is rich as far as I am concerned. > You can make it $833 a month for 8 years but still a big commitment of monthly income. I don't have $833 left over every month. If I did my wife would eventually find out and I would have $8.33 left over. > > So to build a boat u have to be wealthy, have a lot cash in the bank or a great income that's not already spent. In my case I worked overtime but now my back is sore. > > I think lack of $ is the main reason so many home built boat projects wallow in dust and why so many talk about building and never do. > > I know now that my boat will take 10 years. Why? Because it seems it's predetermined for me that as soon as I have non-committed $'s available for the boat that the transmission in my truck will go or I will need a new furnace. > > Brent, I'm not bitching. Just facing the facts of the costs of building. We all envy your frugality. But I want teak bulkheads, an aluminum mast, a water filter and a furnace. > > Men all have trouble taking direction. That why none of us read them until we can't get something to work. If I worked in a BBQ manufacturing plant I would always put a couple of extra screws and bolts in the box on purpose. Just for those guys who don't read the directions. They'd be scratching their heads bald trying to figure out what those extras fastenings were for. > > We all take different routes to get to the same end. If we didn't we'd still be hunting with spears. I will finish in spite of my stainless steel rigging. > > > > P.S. I bought a new stainless Norsesman 5/16 terminal on Saturday for $10. Now that is scrounging as far as I am concerned. I may sleep with it tonight or wear it around my neck to keep committed. > > > > "If u are rich and money is no object build a boat". > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I could never have afforded the boat I have, whether I bought it, or hired others to build it. So I did the work myself, and was sailing for $6,000, in my 31. > > Anyone can get a boat for drastically less than buying one, as long as you avoid paying others to work on it and do most of the work yourself. > > The cost is porportionate to how much you do yourself and how much you pay others to do. > > It's also porportionate to how much new stuff you use, and how much you scrounge. > > Most builders have checked out the used boat market, and having concluded that only works if you are simply able to accept any boat. If you want a good boat, then often the only way to get what you want is to build it yourself. There is a lot of crap for sale on the used boat market , but it is mostly crap. > > A friend told people they could get out cruising for cheap, "IF" they used used sails, galv rigging , scrounged materials, etc etc. Then people would go out , hire people to do everything , line the boat inside and out with teak, buy new aluminium masts and rigs with new stainless rigging, buy new sails , etc etc, then bitch about the fact that it was not cheap. > > If all else fails, follow the directions. Skip the directions and any problems you have are of your own making. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > > > 1. If u are rich and money is no object buy a boat. > > > > > > 2. If u are rich and money is no object build a boat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "To be honest I am struggling with the cost to build vs. buying a good used boat. Maybe I will end up doing both, eventually." > > > > > > > > > > | 23994|23988|2010-09-21 02:11:46|brentswain38|Re: aluminum trimaran?|I can't see any problem with that. You can take the plate shape patterns off any existing trimaran you take a liking to, as long as it is in the same weigh category . Tabarly did nothing but use his aluminium trimaran, breaking records the whole time.I'm surprised his success didn't lead to far more aluminiun tris. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Building a trimaran out of Aluminum would be just another engineering effort. Not finding any references to design using Origami techniques means nothing. Believe it or not a lot of people still want nothing to do with the web. So I wouldn't give up on looking. > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Sep 20, 2010, at 7:45 PM, jhess314 wrote: > > > I've been searching through this forum looking for information about whether it is practical to build the hull of a cruising 35'-40' trimaran out of aluminum using the origami technique? So far I've only found a few references to aluminum trimarans, and none actually designed or built. I suppose that not finding anything definitive is an answer in itself, but I thought I'd ask anyway. I'm more interested in a tri that could carry the load the a cruiser would require, rather than being light and fast. > > Thanks, > > John > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 23995|23988|2010-09-21 08:27:17|Denis Buggy|Re: aluminum trimaran?|dear John I have spent hundreds of hours on the web researching trimaran and multihull craft and hull forms for everything from seaplanes to large multihull ferries , I have a lot to learn yet and I have not found any small versions of the aluminium ferries and military craft currently being produced . there are many very valuable studies carried out by universities all around the planet and you can download them free in strange places and they are offered for sale as study documents at crazy money on public sites . these studies all have a central theme and it is that all around the world naval colleges and architects all agree that a stabilized slim long and shallow central hull produces the most efficient means known yet of moving a boat through the water ------some people call these craft TRIMARANS . the most developed version of this hull to date is USS INDEPENDENCE cost a mere 500 million. if you think any of this research on large hull forms would be helpful--I will send you some links and info I have saved . e mail your preferred E address to denis@... regards Denis Buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: jhess314 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 12:45 AM Subject: [origamiboats] aluminum trimaran? I've been searching through this forum looking for information about whether it is practical to build the hull of a cruising 35'-40' trimaran out of aluminum using the origami technique? So far I've only found a few references to aluminum trimarans, and none actually designed or built. I suppose that not finding anything definitive is an answer in itself, but I thought I'd ask anyway. I'm more interested in a tri that could carry the load the a cruiser would require, rather than being light and fast. Thanks, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23996|23914|2010-09-21 10:30:16|scott|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|I have your book.. I am planning on building my own watermaker unless someone gives me one for free :) lol. however the downeaster 38 has a high transom with the rudder just under it. It is hung on the back of the keel with a support under it. However I have seen a couple of designs you can build yourself that use an inclined trim tab style. To be honest I haven't quite wrapped my head around a true understanding of windvanes that would allow me to picture in my head how it all works with the linkages and such... I suppose when I turn to actually doing that project I will have to knuckle down and figure it out. Especially if I want to build one. here are side and rear views of my boat showing the transom profile and how the rudder is set. http://www.scottcarle.com/wordpress/?page_id=626 I have been looking at variations of some of these designs for the windvane. http://www.mindspring.com/~waltmur/Self-Steering/ http://www.sailsarana.com/selfsteering%20gear/sarana%20trim%20tab.pdf another cool self steering howto... I figure between your book and some of these references on the web I should be able to figure it out. :) hopefully scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > My book tells you how to build a 540 GPD watermaker for under$1,000 and a windvane for transom hung rudders. > | 23997|23914|2010-09-21 10:44:07|scott|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|has anyone here seen any of the boats that are going to the new synthetic rigging using dyneema dux? here is a writeup of a westsail 32 they did this with.. I like the concept a lot.. It takes rigging back to a simpler era that anyone can do it, no special tools, but with the strength and light weight of tomorrow. I have heard several very positive comments from people that have done it but as always since it isn't in common usage it doesn't have along track record. http://www.colligomarine.com/docs/newsletters/Nov%202009.pdf scott > You can build those poured sockets in my book for under a buck, in stainless if you want. | 23998|23914|2010-09-21 11:39:16|Carl Anderson|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|I explored this concept for using on MOM but scrapped the idea after doing some more research. The deadeyes cost quit a bit if you purchase them and you need 2 of them for each shroud/stay. And the rigging will need to be tightened often as the dyneema fiber does slowly stretch (creep?). Then there is the UV issue which is an uncertain part of the equation as this is still a NEW product that doesn't have a 15-20 year usage history. But this fiber is stronger than steel and lighter as well. In the end we went with the tried & true 1X7 galvanized "hydro wire" that is common on boats of Brent's design. Carl sv-mom.com On 9/21/2010 7:39 AM, scott wrote: > > has anyone here seen any of the boats that are going to the new > synthetic rigging using dyneema dux? > > here is a writeup of a westsail 32 they did this with.. I like the > concept a lot.. It takes rigging back to a simpler era that anyone can > do it, no special tools, but with the strength and light weight of > tomorrow. I have heard several very positive comments from people that > have done it but as always since it isn't in common usage it doesn't > have along track record. > > http://www.colligomarine.com/docs/newsletters/Nov%202009.pdf > > scott > > > You can build those poured sockets in my book for under a buck, in > stainless if you want. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23999|23988|2010-09-21 12:02:35|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminum trimaran?|On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 01:27:21PM +0100, Denis Buggy wrote: > > these studies all have a central theme and it is that all around the > world naval colleges and architects all agree that a stabilized slim > long and shallow central hull produces the most efficient means known > yet of moving a boat through the water ------some people call these > craft TRIMARANS . > the most developed version of this hull to date is USS INDEPENDENCE > cost a mere 500 million. Or you could have something almost exactly like it for about $25k. http://www.esquire.com/the-side/blog/tincan :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 24000|23914|2010-09-21 12:14:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: Seaworthiness an d righting ability|On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 02:30:02PM -0000, scott wrote: > > To be honest I haven't quite wrapped > my head around a true understanding of windvanes that would allow me > to picture in my head how it all works with the linkages and such... I > suppose when I turn to actually doing that project I will have to > knuckle down and figure it out. Especially if I want to build one. The principle is easy: stick your hand in moving water, edge-on to the flow, then turn it perpendicular to the flow. If the water is flowing reasonably fast, your hand will be forced toward one side. That's a trimtab. In effect, you're exchanging a couple of ounces of rotational force for X pounds of lateral force on the thing the tab is attached to; it's a mechanical amplifier driven by water flow. When it's pivoted from its forward edge, the force will be opposite of the direction in which the tab turns. > I figure between your book and some of these references on the web I > should be able to figure it out. :) hopefully I've tried designing one of my own in the past. It's not _that_ horribly complicated, but there are definitely quirks which you'll only learn about by going through many rounds of design and testing. Frankly, I'd rather go with a well-tested one these days. My next one is going to be a Brentvane. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com|