27001|26981|2011-11-16 22:54:39|Norm Moore|Re: Containers at sea|PD is property damage in insurance speak. Sent from my iPod On Nov 16, 2011, at 4:01 PM, Roy wrote: > Again ... I'm learning ... > > It's interesting to see the "shipping containers" being a hazard, in real life ... I can imagine them being a hazard if they ever get to float around in waters, but I'd never would imagine for that to happen, except in very rare instances. Is this that common? > > "PL and PD" ... I guess the first one is Personal Liability, and what's next one? > > I do agree that a steel hull is better than insurance, especially in middle of ocean! > > --- On Wed, 11/16/11, Norm Moore wrote: > > From: Norm Moore > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 10:54 AM > > > > You'll probably get a better, more detailed answer from one of the cruising > > forums, but briefly what I found is that insurance for blue water cruising is > > extremely expensive - prohibitively so. Many cruisers just get PL and PD while > > in ports and inland waters where shipping containers aren't typical hazards. > > Those that are well heeled get more insurance. All the insurance in the world > > won't help you if your boat breaks apart when you hit a container and sinks out > > from under you which is one reason a steel hull is better than insurance. > > Norm Moore > > ________________________________ > > From: chris123 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wed, November 16, 2011 7:29:36 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > Interesting point. What are the issues if any with steel boats and > > insurance in general.? FGRP boats in general are quite reasonable pending > > the policy options. New to the list so just wondering. > > Kind regards > > /ch > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:35 AM, GP wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Just perusing CruisersForum this morning. There were 2 posts about > > > sailboats hitting containers recently and sinking. > > > > > > Wonder if insurance companies will make some concession to steel boat > > > construction? > > > > > > ... > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27002|26981|2011-11-16 22:57:55|Roy|Re: Containers at sea|OK ... appreciate that ! --- On Wed, 11/16/11, Norm Moore wrote: From: Norm Moore Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 10:54 PM   PD is property damage in insurance speak. Sent from my iPod On Nov 16, 2011, at 4:01 PM, Roy wrote: > Again ... I'm learning ... > > It's interesting to see the "shipping containers" being a hazard, in real life ... I can imagine them being a hazard if they ever get to float around in waters, but I'd never would imagine for that to happen, except in very rare instances. Is this that common? > > "PL and PD" ... I guess the first one is Personal Liability, and what's next one? > > I do agree that a steel hull is better than insurance, especially in middle of ocean! > > --- On Wed, 11/16/11, Norm Moore wrote: > > From: Norm Moore > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 10:54 AM > > > > You'll probably get a better, more detailed answer from one of the cruising > > forums, but briefly what I found is that insurance for blue water cruising is > > extremely expensive - prohibitively so. Many cruisers just get PL and PD while > > in ports and inland waters where shipping containers aren't typical hazards. > > Those that are well heeled get more insurance. All the insurance in the world > > won't help you if your boat breaks apart when you hit a container and sinks out > > from under you which is one reason a steel hull is better than insurance. > > Norm Moore > > ________________________________ > > From: chris123 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wed, November 16, 2011 7:29:36 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > Interesting point. What are the issues if any with steel boats and > > insurance in general.? FGRP boats in general are quite reasonable pending > > the policy options. New to the list so just wondering. > > Kind regards > > /ch > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:35 AM, GP wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Just perusing CruisersForum this morning. There were 2 posts about > > > sailboats hitting containers recently and sinking. > > > > > > Wonder if insurance companies will make some concession to steel boat > > > construction? > > > > > > ... > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27003|26907|2011-11-17 10:36:05|scott|Re: Electric Propulsion|lol... nope not ground shifting.. just picked on piece of it I could comment on with references. :) I just ignored the rest. Lol... I've actually found the whole thing beyond amusing reading the back and forth. Scott > anything like a single admission of anyone having been wrong. The ground > has now been shifted to hydrogen-based explosions, which have no > connection to the original scenario (i.e., salt water flooding the > batteries or batteries being dropped) and which A) require a prolonged > period of charging *and* B) a source of ignition. > > Not saying that you're doing that, by the way, but - neat bit of > ground-shifting, huh? > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > | 27004|26981|2011-11-19 12:17:09|David L. Jones|Re: Containers at sea|I was given an interesting lesson in the value of 'insurance' when I first started working in boat building about 30 years ago. I was living on the North coast of Spain in the Basque region, a region with a very long tradition of sailing, sailors and boat building. I was trying to break into the fishing boat industry and was using the claim that I 'guaranteed' my work. Finally, one fishing boat captian said to me: "Tell me, if I'm out in the middle of the ocean in a storm and what you are making for me breaks, what are you going to do? Come out and fix it? Right! Look, I just need to know that no matter what, it isn't going to break. Period. No 'guarantee' is worth a damn out there. If my boat goes down and I die, your "guarantee" isn't worth anything." Same thing applies to insurance.... Give me a steel hull ship any day... dj On Wed, 16 Nov 2011, Norm Moore wrote: > You'll probably get a better, more detailed answer from one of the cruising > forums, but briefly what I found is that insurance for blue water cruising is > extremely expensive - prohibitively so. Many cruisers just get PL and PD while > in ports and inland waters where shipping containers aren't typical hazards. > Those that are well heeled get more insurance. All the insurance in the world > won't help you if your boat breaks apart when you hit a container and sinks out > from under you which is one reason a steel hull is better than insurance. > > Norm Moore | 27005|27005|2011-11-19 14:26:50|blueridgebuilder|view BS36 in Seattle area?|Does anyone have a BS36 on the hard somewhere between Tacoma and Bellingham that I could see? tks, John| 27006|27006|2011-11-19 19:39:21|GP|Yanmar 3 HM for sale|I am selling my 2006 rebuilt Yanmar 3 HM (used seasonally)I am wintering over in Comox and you can see it running in my 36'. I have never had a problem with the engine and it runs fine. Skeg cooling and raw water exhaust cooling, the latter which should be changed to dry exhaust as Brent recommends. I have had pump probs with raw water which resolved this year when I put in a larger capacity pump. Reason for sale is a new engine is going in. I will check out prices for used engines and will email anyone interested. If you have info on prices you could pm me if you like. Gary| 27007|27007|2011-11-20 14:17:58|jpronk1|Best Engine for BS 36|I have a 1.5l VW diesel engine that I had plans to use in my boat when I get it built. I am just wondering what would be the best engine to use. I have had a number of people offer me good money for this engine and I would be willing to let it go if I found something better. My cousin works on refrigeration units on big trucks and can get me a small diesel. What should I be looking for? Thank you, James| 27008|27008|2011-11-20 14:28:41|badpirate36|Tachometer instalation|I have a 1983, 59 hp Mazda truck diesel(b2200) in my Skeg cooled BS/36. Unfortuately, according to my shop manuel this model was never equipped with a tach. Could anyone tell me how to retrofit a tach on a diesel engine not previously equipped? Thanx Tom| 27009|27007|2011-11-20 15:16:07|David L. Jones|Re: Best Engine for BS 36|James, I'm not sure what the 1.51 VW diesel engine is. If I had a 1.6L VW diesel, I think I'd be tickled pink. Would be a nice sized engine at (IIRC) about 74 hp.... No electronics at all, fully mechanical system... The 1.9L would be good also, although more electronics, more efficient than the 1.6L and about 90 hp.... Actually consumes less than the 1.6L but you need the computer.. I think I'd prefer the 1.6L on a sailboat. Just because of the simplicity of the whole system... dj On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, jpronk1 wrote: > I have a 1.5l VW diesel engine that I had plans to use in my boat when I get it built. > I am just wondering what would be the best engine to use. I have had a number of people offer me good money for this engine and I would be willing to let it go if I found something better. > My cousin works on refrigeration units on big trucks and can get me a small diesel. What should I be looking for? > Thank you, > James > > | 27010|27008|2011-11-20 15:25:04|martin demers|Re: Tachometer instalation|on older Vw diesel, the tachometer was hooked on a wire coming from the alternator, maybe this can help. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: badpirate@... Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 19:28:40 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Tachometer instalation I have a 1983, 59 hp Mazda truck diesel(b2200) in my Skeg cooled BS/36. Unfortuately, according to my shop manuel this model was never equipped with a tach. Could anyone tell me how to retrofit a tach on a diesel engine not previously equipped? Thanx Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27011|27007|2011-11-20 15:30:15|martin demers|Re: Best Engine for BS 36|I had a mechanical fuel pump modified to install on my 1998 VW TDI engine in my Vanagon, no electronics. It then becomes a TDI-M. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: dljones@... Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:16:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Best Engine for BS 36 James, I'm not sure what the 1.51 VW diesel engine is. If I had a 1.6L VW diesel, I think I'd be tickled pink. Would be a nice sized engine at (IIRC) about 74 hp.... No electronics at all, fully mechanical system... The 1.9L would be good also, although more electronics, more efficient than the 1.6L and about 90 hp.... Actually consumes less than the 1.6L but you need the computer.. I think I'd prefer the 1.6L on a sailboat. Just because of the simplicity of the whole system... dj On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, jpronk1 wrote: > I have a 1.5l VW diesel engine that I had plans to use in my boat when I get it built. > I am just wondering what would be the best engine to use. I have had a number of people offer me good money for this engine and I would be willing to let it go if I found something better. > My cousin works on refrigeration units on big trucks and can get me a small diesel. What should I be looking for? > Thank you, > James > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27012|27007|2011-11-20 15:43:22|David L. Jones|Re: Best Engine for BS 36|Martin, do you know if you can do that on the next generation TDI's? the '98 is part of the A3 platform, '99 went to the A4 platform. I think those may be a bit more complicated to flip to completely mechanical, but I don't know that... It's good to know the A3's can be switched... That's an awesome engine... dj On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, martin demers wrote: > > I had a mechanical fuel pump modified to install on my 1998 VW TDI > engine in my Vanagon, no electronics. It then becomes a TDI-M. > > Martin. | 27013|27007|2011-11-20 15:51:39|martin demers|Re: Best Engine for BS 36|David, I 'll have to ask the guy who modified my pump. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: dljones@... Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:43:27 -0500 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Best Engine for BS 36 Martin, do you know if you can do that on the next generation TDI's? the '98 is part of the A3 platform, '99 went to the A4 platform. I think those may be a bit more complicated to flip to completely mechanical, but I don't know that... It's good to know the A3's can be switched... That's an awesome engine... dj On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, martin demers wrote: > > I had a mechanical fuel pump modified to install on my 1998 VW TDI > engine in my Vanagon, no electronics. It then becomes a TDI-M. > > Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27014|27007|2011-11-20 15:55:29|David L. Jones|Re: Best Engine for BS 36|Martin, I would be very interested in learning the answer... It it were possible, that would really open up the used engine market for available TDIs in my book... dj On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, martin demers wrote: > > David, > > I 'll have to ask the guy who modified my pump. > > Martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: dljones@... > Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:43:27 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Best Engine for BS 36 > > > > > > > Martin, > > do you know if you can do that on the next generation TDI's? the '98 is > part of the A3 platform, '99 went to the A4 platform. I think those may be > a bit more complicated to flip to completely mechanical, but I don't know > that... It's good to know the A3's can be switched... That's an awesome > engine... > > dj > > On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, martin demers wrote: > >> >> I had a mechanical fuel pump modified to install on my 1998 VW TDI >> engine in my Vanagon, no electronics. It then becomes a TDI-M. >> >> Martin. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 27015|26860|2011-11-20 16:14:01|martin demers|Re: ETCH PRIMER|Brent, When you weld those galvanized plate, does the galvanize layer comes off near the weld? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 22:33:22 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ETCH PRIMER I used all hot dipped galvanized plate for my decks ,cabin, wheelhouse and cockpit. I washed it, first with TSP, then vinegar, then water, and the epoxy stuck to it for the last 27 years , like shit to a blanket. It's probably cheaper than any etch pirimer, and quicker too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > Sorry, I forgot to mention that I was painting hot dip galvanized steel > James > > --- On Sat, 11/12/11, brentswain38 wrote: > > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ETCH PRIMER > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Saturday, November 12, 2011, 5:27 PM > > > > � > > > > When I put etch primer on clean steel, the steel turned to bright red rust in a couple of hours. By overnite, it was covered in thick rust. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > I have used etching primers and the big thing is to read and��� follow the instructions. The primer I use needs at least 24 hours to off-gas. The primer is dry to touch in one hour. but the acid needs at least 24 hours to leave the primer for top coating. > > James > > > > --- On Sat, 10/29/11, Denis Buggy wrote: > > > > > > From: Denis Buggy > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ETCH PRIMER > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Saturday, October 29, 2011, 5:16 PM > > > > > > > > ��� > > > > > > > > > > - > > DEAR ALL I AM POSTING IN CAPS TO DIFFER FROM THE POST BELOW AND TO HELP ANY PERSON LIKE MYSELF WHO LIKES LARGE FONTS--- AS AT MY AGE IT MAKES LIFE EASIER -- I KNOW IT DRIVES SOME OF YOU NUTS AS YOU SAY I AM SHOUTING -- ONLY YOU HEAR THE NOISE . > > THIS IS THE LAST TIME I WILL POST ON PAINT AS ALL PREVIOUS ADVICE HAS NO VALUE DESPITE USING ETCH PRIMER FOR 35 YEARS AND THEN WASHING THE PAINTWORK WITH A 3000 PSI POWERWASHER DURING THAT TIME -- MY ADVICE IS WORTHLESS . > > HERE WE GO FOR THE FINAL TIME --- LOOK UP PROFESSIONAL ADVICE FOR FREE ON AKZO NOBEL.COM -- THE MAKERS OF THE FINEST MARINE PAINTS IN THE WORLD INCLUDING THE FAMOUS AWLGRIP PAINT -- THE WORLDWIDE FAVOURITE FOR SUPERYACHTS . > > ETCH PRIMER APPLIED AS PER INSTRUCTIONS WORKS -- IF YOU DO SOMETHING TECHNIAL WITH DIFFERENT CHEMICALS AT THE SAME TIME ON UN PREPARED SURFACES WHILE RELYING ON FOLKLORE DO NOT BE SURPRISED IF THINGS DO NOT GO AS EXPECTED . > > HAPPY HALLOWEEN TO ALL FROM IRELAND > > DENIS BUGGY > > > > Bruce Cope said that etch primer was softer than the epoxy put over it, so it made chipping the epoxy easier, and more likely. The same etch primer, recomended by some paint companies for steel, is a total disaster on steel. > > A sand blasted surface needs no etching if you cover it quickly enough. > > > > . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27016|26860|2011-11-20 16:34:30|David L. Jones|Re: ETCH PRIMER|Martin, It has to. No choice. Here's a .pdf on welding galvanized steel, I just found it on the web. I did a very quick read over a small amount of it and what I read looks pretty decent. http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/articles/WeldingGalvanized.pdf dj On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > When you weld those galvanized plate, does the galvanize layer comes off near the weld? > > Martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 22:33:22 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ETCH PRIMER > > > > > > > I used all hot dipped galvanized plate for my decks ,cabin, wheelhouse and cockpit. I washed it, first with TSP, then vinegar, then water, and the epoxy stuck to it for the last 27 years , like shit to a blanket. It's probably cheaper than any etch pirimer, and quicker too. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: >> >> >> Sorry, I forgot to mention that I was painting hot dip galvanized steel >> James >> >> --- On Sat, 11/12/11, brentswain38 wrote: >> >> >> From: brentswain38 >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ETCH PRIMER >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Received: Saturday, November 12, 2011, 5:27 PM >> >> >> >> � >> >> >> >> When I put etch primer on clean steel, the steel turned to bright red rust in a couple of hours. By overnite, it was covered in thick rust. >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: >>> >>> I have used etching primers and the big thing is to read and��� follow the instructions. The primer I use needs at least 24 hours to off-gas. The primer is dry to touch in one hour. but the acid needs at least 24 hours to leave the primer for top coating. >>> James >>> >>> --- On Sat, 10/29/11, Denis Buggy wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: Denis Buggy >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ETCH PRIMER >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> Received: Saturday, October 29, 2011, 5:16 PM >>> >>> >>> >>> ��� >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - >>> DEAR ALL I AM POSTING IN CAPS TO DIFFER FROM THE POST BELOW AND TO HELP ANY PERSON LIKE MYSELF WHO LIKES LARGE FONTS--- AS AT MY AGE IT MAKES LIFE EASIER -- I KNOW IT DRIVES SOME OF YOU NUTS AS YOU SAY I AM SHOUTING -- ONLY YOU HEAR THE NOISE . >>> THIS IS THE LAST TIME I WILL POST ON PAINT AS ALL PREVIOUS ADVICE HAS NO VALUE DESPITE USING ETCH PRIMER FOR 35 YEARS AND THEN WASHING THE PAINTWORK WITH A 3000 PSI POWERWASHER DURING THAT TIME -- MY ADVICE IS WORTHLESS . >>> HERE WE GO FOR THE FINAL TIME --- LOOK UP PROFESSIONAL ADVICE FOR FREE ON AKZO NOBEL.COM -- THE MAKERS OF THE FINEST MARINE PAINTS IN THE WORLD INCLUDING THE FAMOUS AWLGRIP PAINT -- THE WORLDWIDE FAVOURITE FOR SUPERYACHTS . >>> ETCH PRIMER APPLIED AS PER INSTRUCTIONS WORKS -- IF YOU DO SOMETHING TECHNIAL WITH DIFFERENT CHEMICALS AT THE SAME TIME ON UN PREPARED SURFACES WHILE RELYING ON FOLKLORE DO NOT BE SURPRISED IF THINGS DO NOT GO AS EXPECTED . >>> HAPPY HALLOWEEN TO ALL FROM IRELAND >>> DENIS BUGGY >>> >>> Bruce Cope said that etch primer was softer than the epoxy put over it, so it made chipping the epoxy easier, and more likely. The same etch primer, recomended by some paint companies for steel, is a total disaster on steel. >>> A sand blasted surface needs no etching if you cover it quickly enough. >>> >>> . >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27017|27007|2011-11-20 18:50:56|James Pronk|Re: Best Engine for BS 36|Sorry my mistake, it is a 1.6 L from a 1985 Jetta with 130 000 km on it. --- On Sun, 11/20/11, David L. Jones wrote: From: David L. Jones Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Best Engine for BS 36 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 3:16 PM   James, I'm not sure what the 1.51 VW diesel engine is. If I had a 1.6L VW diesel, I think I'd be tickled pink. Would be a nice sized engine at (IIRC) about 74 hp.... No electronics at all, fully mechanical system... The 1.9L would be good also, although more electronics, more efficient than the 1.6L and about 90 hp.... Actually consumes less than the 1.6L but you need the computer.. I think I'd prefer the 1.6L on a sailboat. Just because of the simplicity of the whole system... dj On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, jpronk1 wrote: > I have a 1.5l VW diesel engine that I had plans to use in my boat when I get it built. > I am just wondering what would be the best engine to use. I have had a number of people offer me good money for this engine and I would be willing to let it go if I found something better. > My cousin works on refrigeration units on big trucks and can get me a small diesel. What should I be looking for? > Thank you, > James > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27018|26981|2011-11-20 19:13:08|brentswain38|Re: Containers at sea|My 36 is plated with 3/16th plate, which has the same tensile strength as 7 1/2 inch douglas fir. A 308 will shoot thru 23 inches of douglas fir, but barely make it thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate, as a comparison of the impact strength of the two materials. Steel has 40 times the strength to weight of wood. A mild steel weld has 100% the stength of the surrounding material , a copper fastening in wood has a tiny fraction the strength of the surrounding matertial. Mild steel will stretch 40% before fracturing , wood, a tiny fraction that before fracturing. Wood is the flimsiest and most trouble prone material ever used to build a boat out of. It's the last thing I would ever want to collide with anything at sea in, or even go to sea in, for that matter.. I have regularly, deliberately T boned log booms at hull speed, with zero risk of damage. Wood boaters are afraid to sail a night in BC waters for fear of hitting a single log, and quickly sinking. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > > I agree about the "plastic" boats ... but wood? > pound for pound, it is a lot stronger than steel ... if built right, wood should do very well > > --- On Wed, 11/16/11, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 3:15 PM > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > I heard recently on CBC Radio that the first debris from the japan earthquake, including steel fishboats is about to start hitting the BC coast. Differences in wndage is spreading the debris out over thousands of miles, and will continue to do so until it covers the entire North Pacific. Expect the number of plastic boats sinking from colisions with such debris to incrase drastically over the next few years. That should increase demand for, and appreciation of steel boats. > > Got a plastic or wood boat? Sell it and go metal! Beat the rush. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai@" wrote: > > > > > > Did you forget about japans earthquake > > > > > > Sent from my ACS Android > > > > > > -----Original message----- > > > From: Matt Malone > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 15:58:42 GMT+00:00 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the number of sailboats that hit a container at sea will always be > > > low in comparison to the number of insured sailboats, so, the marginal > > > difference in a steel boat, spread over the probabilities, would result in a > > > tiny change in the cost of insurance vs. sinking and replacing an orgami. > > > I think what is probably of more concern to insurance companies with a > > > blue-water-capable boat is a collision where the sailboat puts a hole in > > > something fragile and really expensive and the expensive thing requires a > > > huge effort to save it from sinking, and huge effort to replace its > > > custom-carpentered wood interior, top of the line systems... And that is > > > before considering injuries and casualities. After all, any boat that can > > > hit a log at hull speed and have no problem at all is likely to make a real > > > impression on a big fibreglass coastal cruiser, and the target fibreglass > > > boat will absorb all the impact damage. > > > > > > I remember reading an article where someone had built a beautiful steel > > > boat, and painted it with so much epoxy paint they said they had a > > > steel-cored epoxy boat. They also mentioned their fear of sinking another > > > boat as one of their major concerns when purchasing insurance. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: chris.herrnberger@ > > > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:29:36 -0500 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting point. What are the issues if any with steel boats and > > > > > > insurance in general.? FGRP boats in general are quite reasonable pending > > > > > > the policy options. New to the list so just wondering. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:35 AM, GP wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just perusing CruisersForum this morning. There were 2 posts about > > > > > > > sailboats hitting containers recently and sinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wonder if insurance companies will make some concession to steel boat > > > > > > > construction? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27019|26999|2011-11-20 19:15:09|brentswain38|Re: Origami builds|Yes ,no problem. Just take the shapes off the hull lines or a model and build her using origami methods. It will work with any hard chined design. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Greets: > > Was wondering since this is the origami boat list...say you had a plan > for steel boat. Is it possible to convert that plan into and origami > style build hull. Sure would love to hear more stuff about boat > building. > > -- > /ch > | 27020|26860|2011-11-20 19:20:27|brentswain38|Re: ETCH PRIMER|Yes , but less than 1/16th of an inch away from the weld. Wire feed and low hydrogen rods hate galv, 6011 and 7024 dont mind it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent, > > When you weld those galvanized plate, does the galvanize layer comes off near the weld? > > Martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 22:33:22 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ETCH PRIMER > > > > > > > I used all hot dipped galvanized plate for my decks ,cabin, wheelhouse and cockpit. I washed it, first with TSP, then vinegar, then water, and the epoxy stuck to it for the last 27 years , like shit to a blanket. It's probably cheaper than any etch pirimer, and quicker too. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > Sorry, I forgot to mention that I was painting hot dip galvanized steel > > James > > > > --- On Sat, 11/12/11, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ETCH PRIMER > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Saturday, November 12, 2011, 5:27 PM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > When I put etch primer on clean steel, the steel turned to bright red rust in a couple of hours. By overnite, it was covered in thick rust. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > I have used etching primers and the big thing is to read and follow the instructions. The primer I use needs at least 24 hours to off-gas. The primer is dry to touch in one hour. but the acid needs at least 24 hours to leave the primer for top coating. > > > James > > > > > > --- On Sat, 10/29/11, Denis Buggy wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Denis Buggy > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ETCH PRIMER > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Received: Saturday, October 29, 2011, 5:16 PM > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > DEAR ALL I AM POSTING IN CAPS TO DIFFER FROM THE POST BELOW AND TO HELP ANY PERSON LIKE MYSELF WHO LIKES LARGE FONTS--- AS AT MY AGE IT MAKES LIFE EASIER -- I KNOW IT DRIVES SOME OF YOU NUTS AS YOU SAY I AM SHOUTING -- ONLY YOU HEAR THE NOISE . > > > THIS IS THE LAST TIME I WILL POST ON PAINT AS ALL PREVIOUS ADVICE HAS NO VALUE DESPITE USING ETCH PRIMER FOR 35 YEARS AND THEN WASHING THE PAINTWORK WITH A 3000 PSI POWERWASHER DURING THAT TIME -- MY ADVICE IS WORTHLESS . > > > HERE WE GO FOR THE FINAL TIME --- LOOK UP PROFESSIONAL ADVICE FOR FREE ON AKZO NOBEL.COM -- THE MAKERS OF THE FINEST MARINE PAINTS IN THE WORLD INCLUDING THE FAMOUS AWLGRIP PAINT -- THE WORLDWIDE FAVOURITE FOR SUPERYACHTS . > > > ETCH PRIMER APPLIED AS PER INSTRUCTIONS WORKS -- IF YOU DO SOMETHING TECHNIAL WITH DIFFERENT CHEMICALS AT THE SAME TIME ON UN PREPARED SURFACES WHILE RELYING ON FOLKLORE DO NOT BE SURPRISED IF THINGS DO NOT GO AS EXPECTED . > > > HAPPY HALLOWEEN TO ALL FROM IRELAND > > > DENIS BUGGY > > > > > > Bruce Cope said that etch primer was softer than the epoxy put over it, so it made chipping the epoxy easier, and more likely. The same etch primer, recomended by some paint companies for steel, is a total disaster on steel. > > > A sand blasted surface needs no etching if you cover it quickly enough. > > > > > > . > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27021|27005|2011-11-20 19:22:29|brentswain38|Re: view BS36 in Seattle area?|Don't know about on the hard, but John Hackett built himself a 36 in the Seattle are, and Dale Deforest has one in NE Olympia. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueridgebuilder" wrote: > > Does anyone have a BS36 on the hard somewhere between Tacoma and Bellingham that I could see? > > tks, John > | 27022|27007|2011-11-20 19:22:40|David L. Jones|Re: Best Engine for BS 36|James, No worries, I also mis-quoted what the 1.6L has for horsepower, it's not 74 hp, it's either 59 hp for the non-turbo model and 68 hp for the turbo model. Both are nice engines and pretty much exactly what I'd like to put in my sail boat... Both are fully mechanical. 130,000 km is not much if it was maintained well for those miles. I have a friend of mine running one that has over 250,000 miles on it and the motor runs and sounds excellent. It has been well maintained for all those miles... You will have to modify it to run it in a boat. But if you are up to the task, I don't think you'll find a more efficient diesel. If you can sell it for the same price as what you have to pay for a diesel all set-up to drop in your boat, then that could be a good option... dj On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, James Pronk wrote: > Sorry my mistake, it is a 1.6 L from a 1985 Jetta with 130 000 km on it. | 27023|26981|2011-11-20 22:12:14|Matt Malone|Re: Containers at sea|The previous poster is confusing stiffness with strength. Pound for pound, good wood is about the same stiffness (rigidity) as steel, but is not as strong per weight, and not as tough per weight. What Brent is talking about, impact, is a combination of toughness and strength. In the end, remember, one splits and cuts wood reasonably easy with an axe. This is a good chart: http://www-materials.eng.cam.ac.uk/mpsite/interactive_charts/strength-toughness/NS6Chart.html Matt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 00:13:05 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea My 36 is plated with 3/16th plate, which has the same tensile strength as 7 1/2 inch douglas fir. A 308 will shoot thru 23 inches of douglas fir, but barely make it thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate, as a comparison of the impact strength of the two materials. Steel has 40 times the strength to weight of wood. A mild steel weld has 100% the stength of the surrounding material , a copper fastening in wood has a tiny fraction the strength of the surrounding matertial. Mild steel will stretch 40% before fracturing , wood, a tiny fraction that before fracturing. Wood is the flimsiest and most trouble prone material ever used to build a boat out of. It's the last thing I would ever want to collide with anything at sea in, or even go to sea in, for that matter.. I have regularly, deliberately T boned log booms at hull speed, with zero risk of damage. Wood boaters are afraid to sail a night in BC waters for fear of hitting a single log, and quickly sinking. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > > I agree about the "plastic" boats ... but wood? > pound for pound, it is a lot stronger than steel ... if built right, wood should do very well > > --- On Wed, 11/16/11, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 3:15 PM > > > > > > > > > � > > > > > > > > > > I heard recently on CBC Radio that the first debris from the japan earthquake, including steel fishboats is about to start hitting the BC coast. Differences in wndage is spreading the debris out over thousands of miles, and will continue to do so until it covers the entire North Pacific. Expect the number of plastic boats sinking from colisions with such debris to incrase drastically over the next few years. That should increase demand for, and appreciation of steel boats. > > Got a plastic or wood boat? Sell it and go metal! Beat the rush. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai@" wrote: > > > > > > Did you forget about japans earthquake > > > > > > Sent from my ACS Android > > > > > > -----Original message----- > > > From: Matt Malone > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 15:58:42 GMT+00:00 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the number of sailboats that hit a container at sea will always be > > > low in comparison to the number of insured sailboats, so, the marginal > > > difference in a steel boat, spread over the probabilities, would result in a > > > tiny change in the cost of insurance vs. sinking and replacing an orgami. > > > I think what is probably of more concern to insurance companies with a > > > blue-water-capable boat is a collision where the sailboat puts a hole in > > > something fragile and really expensive and the expensive thing requires a > > > huge effort to save it from sinking, and huge effort to replace its > > > custom-carpentered wood interior, top of the line systems... And that is > > > before considering injuries and casualities. After all, any boat that can > > > hit a log at hull speed and have no problem at all is likely to make a real > > > impression on a big fibreglass coastal cruiser, and the target fibreglass > > > boat will absorb all the impact damage. > > > > > > I remember reading an article where someone had built a beautiful steel > > > boat, and painted it with so much epoxy paint they said they had a > > > steel-cored epoxy boat. They also mentioned their fear of sinking another > > > boat as one of their major concerns when purchasing insurance. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: chris.herrnberger@ > > > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:29:36 -0500 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting point. What are the issues if any with steel boats and > > > > > > insurance in general.? FGRP boats in general are quite reasonable pending > > > > > > the policy options. New to the list so just wondering. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:35 AM, GP wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just perusing CruisersForum this morning. There were 2 posts about > > > > > > > sailboats hitting containers recently and sinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wonder if insurance companies will make some concession to steel boat > > > > > > > construction? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27024|26907|2011-11-20 22:36:29|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Lead-Acid battery explosion|I followed the exploding batteries thread with interest. A couple of comments. I owned a old Ford van that constantly overcharged the battery, despite a new battery, new alternator and two new regulators. I sold it and told the guy I had to put water in the battery every day because it constantly boiled off. I ran in to him a couple of months later and asked about the van. He told me he took a two hour trip with three other guys in the van. About 15 minutes from their destination the battery exploded, on the NJ turnpike, filling the van with a cloud of noxious fumes. They nearly crashed getting over to the side of the road! When I was a kid I used to build carbon arc furnaces using the carbon rods from the big cells found in 6 volt lantern batteries. I used salt water in a gallon jar with two metal plates as a resistor to limit the 120 vac current. I blew a bunch of fuses in the house until I figured out the resistance dropped as the water heated up. So then I would heat up the water and add salt until I could get the arc started and add more until I had about 14 amps of load. It never seemed to generate any chlorine gas that we could smell. If you invert a plastic box over each battery to create a bell jar it won't actually matter if the battery gets submerged. The bubble of air will keep the water from the terminals and the electrolyte. I read someplace about how divers use a long coiled piece of tubing connected to each cell to equalize the pressure without letting in water so that batteries can operate at nearly any depth. Gary H. Lucas| 27025|26981|2011-11-20 22:39:40|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Containers at sea|Roy, I read in a trade magazine that only about 1/10 of 1 percent of shipping containers are lost at sea each year. Of course there are over 1 billion in use, so that amounts to 1 million lost overboard each year! Gary H. Lucas From: Roy Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea Again ... I'm learning ... It's interesting to see the "shipping containers" being a hazard, in real life ... I can imagine them being a hazard if they ever get to float around in waters, but I'd never would imagine for that to happen, except in very rare instances. Is this that common? "PL and PD" ... I guess the first one is Personal Liability, and what's next one? I do agree that a steel hull is better than insurance, especially in middle of ocean! --- On Wed, 11/16/11, Norm Moore wrote: From: Norm Moore Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 10:54 AM You'll probably get a better, more detailed answer from one of the cruising forums, but briefly what I found is that insurance for blue water cruising is extremely expensive - prohibitively so. Many cruisers just get PL and PD while in ports and inland waters where shipping containers aren't typical hazards. Those that are well heeled get more insurance. All the insurance in the world won't help you if your boat breaks apart when you hit a container and sinks out from under you which is one reason a steel hull is better than insurance. Norm Moore ________________________________ From: chris123 To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, November 16, 2011 7:29:36 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea Interesting point. What are the issues if any with steel boats and insurance in general.? FGRP boats in general are quite reasonable pending the policy options. New to the list so just wondering. Kind regards /ch On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:35 AM, GP wrote: > ** > > > Just perusing CruisersForum this morning. There were 2 posts about > sailboats hitting containers recently and sinking. > > Wonder if insurance companies will make some concession to steel boat > construction? > > ... > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27026|26907|2011-11-20 22:42:27|Brian Stannard|Re: Lead-Acid battery explosion|Gary You had the rods in salt water only? The chlorine would come from salt water in battery acid. As far as the bell jar it doesn't allow for ventilation of the batteries when charging I don't think. On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 7:37 PM, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > I followed the exploding batteries thread with interest. A couple of > comments. > > I owned a old Ford van that constantly overcharged the battery, despite a > new battery, new alternator and two new regulators. I sold it and told the > guy I had to put water in the battery every day because it constantly > boiled > off. I ran in to him a couple of months later and asked about the van. He > told me he took a two hour trip with three other guys in the van. About 15 > minutes from their destination the battery exploded, on the NJ turnpike, > filling the van with a cloud of noxious fumes. They nearly crashed getting > over to the side of the road! > > When I was a kid I used to build carbon arc furnaces using the carbon rods > from the big cells found in 6 volt lantern batteries. I used salt water in > a gallon jar with two metal plates as a resistor to limit the 120 vac > current. I blew a bunch of fuses in the house until I figured out the > resistance dropped as the water heated up. So then I would heat up the > water and add salt until I could get the arc started and add more until I > had about 14 amps of load. It never seemed to generate any chlorine gas > that we could smell. > > If you invert a plastic box over each battery to create a bell jar it won't > actually matter if the battery gets submerged. The bubble of air will keep > the water from the terminals and the electrolyte. I read someplace about > how divers use a long coiled piece of tubing connected to each cell to > equalize the pressure without letting in water so that batteries can > operate > at nearly any depth. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27027|26981|2011-11-21 00:55:32|Roy|Re: Containers at sea|Yeah, apparently so ... then all the more the reason for me to use a sub ... am from a sea faring family, and been thinking to go overseas ... would like to sail, but those 100' rogue waves makes me think twice ... and so do the storms ... and to miss all the views and life underwater is something I am not willing to bear ... Been working on designs for a live aboard, capable at least to go 300' under ... seems it is the safest route, and probably the most pleasurable ... --- On Sun, 11/20/11, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 10:40 PM   Roy, I read in a trade magazine that only about 1/10 of 1 percent of shipping containers are lost at sea each year. Of course there are over 1 billion in use, so that amounts to 1 million lost overboard each year! Gary H. Lucas From: Roy Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea Again ... I'm learning ... It's interesting to see the "shipping containers" being a hazard, in real life ... I can imagine them being a hazard if they ever get to float around in waters, but I'd never would imagine for that to happen, except in very rare instances. Is this that common? "PL and PD" ... I guess the first one is Personal Liability, and what's next one? I do agree that a steel hull is better than insurance, especially in middle of ocean! --- On Wed, 11/16/11, Norm Moore wrote: From: Norm Moore Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 10:54 AM You'll probably get a better, more detailed answer from one of the cruising forums, but briefly what I found is that insurance for blue water cruising is extremely expensive - prohibitively so. Many cruisers just get PL and PD while in ports and inland waters where shipping containers aren't typical hazards. Those that are well heeled get more insurance. All the insurance in the world won't help you if your boat breaks apart when you hit a container and sinks out from under you which is one reason a steel hull is better than insurance. Norm Moore ________________________________ From: chris123 To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, November 16, 2011 7:29:36 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea Interesting point. What are the issues if any with steel boats and insurance in general.? FGRP boats in general are quite reasonable pending the policy options. New to the list so just wondering. Kind regards /ch On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:35 AM, GP wrote: > ** > > > Just perusing CruisersForum this morning. There were 2 posts about > sailboats hitting containers recently and sinking. > > Wonder if insurance companies will make some concession to steel boat > construction? > > ... > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27028|26981|2011-11-21 00:58:06|Roy|Re: Containers at sea|interesting ... what would some examples of "composites" be? --- On Sun, 11/20/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 10:12 PM The previous poster is confusing stiffness with strength.   Pound for pound, good wood is about the same stiffness (rigidity) as steel, but is not as strong per weight, and not as tough per weight.   What Brent is talking about, impact, is a combination of toughness and strength.  In the end, remember, one splits and cuts wood reasonably easy with an axe.  This is a good chart: http://www-materials.eng.cam.ac.uk/mpsite/interactive_charts/strength-toughness/NS6Chart.html Matt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 00:13:05 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea                         My 36 is plated with 3/16th plate, which has the same tensile strength as 7 1/2 inch douglas fir. A 308 will shoot thru 23 inches of douglas fir, but  barely make it thru 3/8th  inch mild  steel plate, as a comparison of the impact strength of the two materials. Steel has 40 times the strength to weight of wood. A mild steel weld has 100% the stength of the surrounding material , a copper fastening in wood has a tiny fraction the strength of the  surrounding matertial. Mild steel will stretch 40% before fracturing , wood, a tiny fraction that before fracturing. Wood  is the flimsiest and most trouble prone material ever used to  build  a boat out of. It's the last thing I would ever want to collide with anything at  sea in, or even go to sea in, for that matter.. I have regularly, deliberately  T boned log booms at hull speed, with zero risk of damage. Wood boaters are afraid to sail a night in BC waters for fear of hitting  a single log, and quickly sinking. .      --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > > I agree about the "plastic" boats ... but wood? > pound for pound, it is a lot stronger than steel ... if built right, wood should do very well > > --- On Wed, 11/16/11, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 3:15 PM > > > > > > > > >  > > > >    > > >      >        >        >       I heard recently on CBC Radio that the first debris from the japan earthquake,  including steel fishboats is about to start hitting the BC coast.  Differences in wndage is spreading the debris out over thousands of miles, and will continue to do so until it covers the entire North Pacific. Expect the number of plastic boats sinking from colisions with such debris to incrase drastically over the next few years. That should increase demand for, and appreciation of steel boats. > >  Got a plastic or wood boat? Sell it and go metal! Beat the rush.  > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai@" wrote: > > > > > > Did you forget about japans earthquake > > > > > > Sent from my ACS Android > > > > > > -----Original message----- > > > From: Matt Malone > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 15:58:42 GMT+00:00 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the number of sailboats that hit a container at sea will always be  > > > low in comparison to the number of insured sailboats, so, the marginal  > > > difference in a steel boat, spread over the probabilities, would result in a  > > > tiny change in the cost of insurance vs. sinking and replacing an orgami.    > > > I think what is probably of more concern to insurance companies with a  > > > blue-water-capable boat is a collision where the sailboat puts a hole in  > > > something fragile and really expensive and the expensive thing requires a  > > > huge effort to save it from sinking, and huge effort to replace its  > > > custom-carpentered wood interior, top of the line systems... And that is  > > > before considering injuries and casualities.   After all, any boat that can  > > > hit a log at hull speed and have no problem at all is likely to make a real  > > > impression on a big fibreglass coastal cruiser, and the target fibreglass  > > > boat will absorb all the impact damage. > > > > > > I remember reading an article where someone had built a beautiful steel  > > > boat, and painted it with so much epoxy paint they said they had a  > > > steel-cored epoxy boat.  They also mentioned their fear of sinking another  > > > boat as one of their major concerns when purchasing insurance.    > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: chris.herrnberger@ > > > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:29:36 -0500 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > >    > > > > > > > > >      > > >        > > >        > > >       Interesting point. What are the issues if any with steel boats and > > > > > > insurance in general.? FGRP boats in general are quite reasonable pending > > > > > > the policy options. New to the list so just wondering. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:35 AM, GP wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just perusing CruisersForum this morning. There were 2 posts about > > > > > > > sailboats hitting containers recently and sinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wonder if insurance companies will make some concession to steel boat > > > > > > > construction? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >      > > >      > > > > > >      > > >      > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >                              > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > >      >      > >      >      > > > > > > >    > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27029|27008|2011-11-21 08:59:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: Tachometer instalation|On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 07:28:40PM -0000, badpirate36 wrote: > I have a 1983, 59 hp Mazda truck diesel(b2200) in my Skeg cooled > BS/36. Unfortuately, according to my shop manuel this model was never > equipped with a tach. Could anyone tell me how to retrofit a tach on a > diesel engine not previously equipped? The standard method for the RPM readout these days simply uses the tach output from the alternator to drive a meter. If you want the _actual_ RPM, that's more expensive as well as more difficult to hook up. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27030|27007|2011-11-21 09:32:07|Dave Ladd|Re: Best Engine for BS 36|My boat (a ferro!) has what is called a Pathfinder. It's an older 1.5 or 1.6 automotive diesel converted to marine. The bits and pieces were produced by a Canadian company. There is not much info on the net and Pathfinder wants you to pay for any info from what I can figure out. The biggest bit is a Bowman heat exchanger -- possibly available from England. Let me know if you would like additional info I have the printed manual and parts views. I've also see that VW made marine engines recently. Again, check the 'net. It seems they've merged or something with Cummins. On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 7:22 PM, David L. Jones wrote: > James, > > No worries, I also mis-quoted what the 1.6L has for horsepower, it's not > 74 hp, it's either 59 hp for the non-turbo model and 68 hp for the turbo > model. Both are nice engines and pretty much exactly what I'd like to put > in my sail boat... Both are fully mechanical. 130,000 km is not much if it > was maintained well for those miles. I have a friend of mine running one > that has over 250,000 miles on it and the motor runs and sounds excellent. > It has been well maintained for all those miles... > > You will have to modify it to run it in a boat. But if you are up to the > task, I don't think you'll find a more efficient diesel. If you can sell > it for the same price as what you have to pay for a diesel all set-up to > drop in your boat, then that could be a good option... > > dj > > > On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, James Pronk wrote: > > > Sorry my mistake, it is a 1.6 L from a 1985 Jetta with 130 000 km on it. > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27031|26981|2011-11-21 09:51:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: Containers at sea|On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 09:54:30PM -0800, Roy wrote: > Yeah, apparently so ... then all the more the reason for me to use a sub ... > > am from a sea faring family, and been thinking to go overseas ... > would like to sail, but those 100' rogue waves makes me think twice > ... and so do the storms ... Do note, by the way, that the US Navy considers a sub safe, in a hurricane situation, _only_ when it reaches an area where there's 600 fathoms under it (100 fathoms is considered to be an area of minimal safety.) I was doing a bit of reading just before Hurricane Irene, and ran across a fascinating Navy document on the Web - don't have the link handy right now - that documents the procedure for sub commanders at the big sub yard in Connecticut. You might want to search for it - it's got some excellent reasoning and experience behind the procedures, which it explains in detail. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27032|26907|2011-11-21 10:31:05|Matt Malone|Re: Lead-Acid battery explosion|> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gary.lucas@... > Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:37:16 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lead-Acid battery explosion > > I followed the exploding batteries thread with interest. A couple of > comments. > > I owned a old Ford van that constantly overcharged the battery, despite a > new battery, new alternator and two new regulators. I sold it and told the > guy I had to put water in the battery every day because it constantly boiled > off. I ran in to him a couple of months later and asked about the van. He > told me he took a two hour trip with three other guys in the van. About 15 > minutes from their destination the battery exploded, on the NJ turnpike, > filling the van with a cloud of noxious fumes. They nearly crashed getting > over to the side of the road! > Might have been an intermittent connection / intermittent short (assuming negative ground -- not really old Fords) in the battery voltage sense wire going back to the regulator/alternator. > When I was a kid I used to build carbon arc furnaces using the carbon rods > from the big cells found in 6 volt lantern batteries. I used salt water in > a gallon jar with two metal plates as a resistor to limit the 120 vac > current. I blew a bunch of fuses in the house until I figured out the > resistance dropped as the water heated up. So then I would heat up the > water and add salt until I could get the arc started and add more until I > had about 14 amps of load. It never seemed to generate any chlorine gas > that we could smell. > Any idea how much salt you put in the water to get its effective resistance down to under 10 Ohms ? > If you invert a plastic box over each battery to create a bell jar it won't > actually matter if the battery gets submerged. The bubble of air will keep > the water from the terminals and the electrolyte. I read someplace about > how divers use a long coiled piece of tubing connected to each cell to > equalize the pressure without letting in water so that batteries can operate > at nearly any depth. > One should remember, the bell jar will try to float with the same force as if it were full of air (no battery) so, bolt it down well / attach it to the strap under the battery. As the boat heels, some air will spill out from under the bell jar on one side, the water level will rise. If one thinks +/- 45 degrees either way is an expected heel then the bell jar has to be as tall as it is wide. Brian is right, venting the hydrogen is more challenging with a bell jar. There is little one can do to prevent the entire bell jar from being full of hydrogen most of the time. Any vent pipe/hole/nipple above the bottom rim of the bell jar is also a vent for the air in the bell jar to allow it to fill with sea water. I am picturing a sealable thin metal battery box around the plastic battery box(es) . I have still not decided if that would satisfy my safety concerns because in my boat, a large bank of batteries would have to be located under the floor in my main cabin. I have to improve the mounting of the house batteries as it is. Perhaps when I am satisfied with that, then I will give more consideration to electric propulsion. Matt > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27033|26981|2011-11-21 11:03:03|Matt Malone|Re: Containers at sea|Roy, if you mouse-over the word "composites" it shows to ovals inside the larger composite region, for CFRP - Carbon fibre reinforced plastic and GFRP - glass fibre reinforced plastic. Mouse-over back and forth between the metals "AND" "ALLOYS" -- AND gives you high alloys, ALLOYS gives you low alloys. Comparing mild steel to CFRP and GFRP is interesting, however, the graph is logarithmic, so a small difference is important. I wish they had an oval for Kevlar. I believe this graph is leaving out three things: The strength is in the fibre direction for composites, so, a 50/50 laminate that gives more balanced properties in two planar directions (application for a boat) is automatically about half as strong so shift the composite ovals down a little less than a half a decade. Also, the fibre to plastic fraction is probably representative of best practices in layups -- expect your vacuum-bagged production graphite mast to be at this level -- expect your old fibreglass hand-layup mat-glass boat to be 60% of this level, so again, move the ovals for hull composites down a bit. One important thing that they are leaving out that benefits composites, is reduced weight. Pound for pound, the glass fibre oval would go up by about a factor of two as compared to steel, graphite by a factor of 3. The graph is also leaving out the effects of forming a metal boat. A composite hull is formed with near zero residual stress in its finished shape, whereas, a metal boat that is not poured in one piece is likely to have stress concentrations from forming. With mild steel there is plasticity to help with that, but this is something else not factored into the graphs. I would be interested to see where Corten steel lands on the graph. I have encountered some low alloy, high strength sheet steels before that I have found to be startlingly tough in applications. As I am drilling them or cutting them, or trying to use a center punch on them, I am going, wow, this is tough stuff. Again, the graph is logarithmic so the oval for "Low Alloy Steels" offers massive improvements in either strength or toughness over mild steel or even a little of both, depending on where in that oval the steel alloy falls. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: DeafMessianic@... Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:57:50 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea interesting ... what would some examples of "composites" be? --- On Sun, 11/20/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 10:12 PM The previous poster is confusing stiffness with strength. Pound for pound, good wood is about the same stiffness (rigidity) as steel, but is not as strong per weight, and not as tough per weight. What Brent is talking about, impact, is a combination of toughness and strength. In the end, remember, one splits and cuts wood reasonably easy with an axe. This is a good chart: http://www-materials.eng.cam.ac.uk/mpsite/interactive_charts/strength-toughness/NS6Chart.html Matt ---------------------------------------------------------- To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 00:13:05 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea My 36 is plated with 3/16th plate, which has the same tensile strength as 7 1/2 inch douglas fir. A 308 will shoot thru 23 inches of douglas fir, but barely make it thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate, as a comparison of the impact strength of the two materials. Steel has 40 times the strength to weight of wood. A mild steel weld has 100% the stength of the surrounding material , a copper fastening in wood has a tiny fraction the strength of the surrounding matertial. Mild steel will stretch 40% before fracturing , wood, a tiny fraction that before fracturing. Wood is the flimsiest and most trouble prone material ever used to build a boat out of. It's the last thing I would ever want to collide with anything at sea in, or even go to sea in, for that matter.. I have regularly, deliberately T boned log booms at hull speed, with zero risk of damage. Wood boaters are afraid to sail a night in BC waters for fear of hitting a single log, and quickly sinking. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > > I agree about the "plastic" boats ... but wood? > pound for pound, it is a lot stronger than steel ... if built right, wood should do very well > > --- On Wed, 11/16/11, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 3:15 PM > > > > > > > > > � > > > > > > > > > > I heard recently on CBC Radio that the first debris from the japan earthquake, including steel fishboats is about to start hitting the BC coast. Differences in wndage is spreading the debris out over thousands of miles, and will continue to do so until it covers the entire North Pacific. Expect the number of plastic boats sinking from colisions with such debris to incrase drastically over the next few years. That should increase demand for, and appreciation of steel boats. > > Got a plastic or wood boat? Sell it and go metal! Beat the rush. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai@" wrote: > > > > > > Did you forget about japans earthquake > > > > > > Sent from my ACS Android > > > > > > -----Original message----- > > > From: Matt Malone > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 15:58:42 GMT+00:00 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the number of sailboats that hit a container at sea will always be > > > low in comparison to the number of insured sailboats, so, the marginal > > > difference in a steel boat, spread over the probabilities, would result in a > > > tiny change in the cost of insurance vs. sinking and replacing an orgami. > > > I think what is probably of more concern to insurance companies with a > > > blue-water-capable boat is a collision where the sailboat puts a hole in > > > something fragile and really expensive and the expensive thing requires a > > > huge effort to save it from sinking, and huge effort to replace its > > > custom-carpentered wood interior, top of the line systems... And that is > > > before considering injuries and casualities. After all, any boat that can > > > hit a log at hull speed and have no problem at all is likely to make a real > > > impression on a big fibreglass coastal cruiser, and the target fibreglass > > > boat will absorb all the impact damage. > > > > > > I remember reading an article where someone had built a beautiful steel > > > boat, and painted it with so much epoxy paint they said they had a > > > steel-cored epoxy boat. They also mentioned their fear of sinking another > > > boat as one of their major concerns when purchasing insurance. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: chris.herrnberger@ > > > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:29:36 -0500 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting point. What are the issues if any with steel boats and > > > > > > insurance in general.? FGRP boats in general are quite reasonable pending > > > > > > the policy options. New to the list so just wondering. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:35 AM, GP wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just perusing CruisersForum this morning. There were 2 posts about > > > > > > > sailboats hitting containers recently and sinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wonder if insurance companies will make some concession to steel boat > > > > > > > construction? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27034|27007|2011-11-21 11:20:46|Gord Schnell|Re: Best Engine for BS 36|I have a 1.8L diesel n my BS40. It was a turbo, but I have removed the turbo unit to make it naturally aspirated. Gord On 2011-11-20, at 12:16 PM, David L. Jones wrote: > James, > > I'm not sure what the 1.51 VW diesel engine is. If I had a 1.6L VW diesel, > I think I'd be tickled pink. Would be a nice sized engine at (IIRC) about > 74 hp.... No electronics at all, fully mechanical system... > > The 1.9L would be good also, although more electronics, more efficient > than the 1.6L and about 90 hp.... Actually consumes less than the 1.6L but > you need the computer.. > > I think I'd prefer the 1.6L on a sailboat. Just because of the simplicity > of the whole system... > > dj > > On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, jpronk1 wrote: > > > I have a 1.5l VW diesel engine that I had plans to use in my boat when I get it built. > > I am just wondering what would be the best engine to use. I have had a number of people offer me good money for this engine and I would be willing to let it go if I found something better. > > My cousin works on refrigeration units on big trucks and can get me a small diesel. What should I be looking for? > > Thank you, > > James > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27035|26981|2011-11-21 11:27:51|Matt Malone|Re: Containers at sea|The requirement for greater depth than one would likely expect is likely for reasons of temporary unusual currents in shallower water. There is a substantial bubble of storm surge water under a hurricane. As it passes, some unusual temporary currents might be generated around land features, and in shallow waters as the ocean water attempts to flow to make that bubble. There are some places with shallow water that have really unusual currents just from the variation in the tides -- and that cycle repeats month after month, year after year. Imagine how unpredictable the currents would be from a particular hurricane path. It might be the waves that make the first breech in hurricane-cuts in bank islands, but I suspect it is the a-typical movement of storm-surge water that washes these new cuts into deep channels. Mixed with a coincident equipment failure on the submarine, the unpredictable currents and the added challenges of rescue with a hurricane overhead, compounded on the already challenging rescue from a submarine in calm weather, likely dictates the extra caution. "Lets make sure the submarines are really safe, so we do not have to risk anyone to go help them in a hurry." -- is likely the thinking. Matt -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:50:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 09:54:30PM -0800, Roy wrote: > Yeah, apparently so ... then all the more the reason for me to use a sub ... > > am from a sea faring family, and been thinking to go overseas ... > would like to sail, but those 100' rogue waves makes me think twice > ... and so do the storms ... Do note, by the way, that the US Navy considers a sub safe, in a hurricane situation, _only_ when it reaches an area where there's 600 fathoms under it (100 fathoms is considered to be an area of minimal safety.) I was doing a bit of reading just before Hurricane Irene, and ran across a fascinating Navy document on the Web - don't have the link handy right now - that documents the procedure for sub commanders at the big sub yard in Connecticut. You might want to search for it - it's got some excellent reasoning and experience behind the procedures, which it explains in detail. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27036|26981|2011-11-21 11:40:29|Roy|Re: Containers at sea|Thanks for this information ... will try to hunt it down hurricanes are not what I worry about ... they are too few and avoidable with reasonable care tsumanis are also something we do need to watch out for, especially on the shelf areas before it drops down into the deep ... they do sweep along the bottoms it is the common storms, including the bad ones that do hit now and then all over, that I was thinking about a friend who served on the USS Enterprise told me of how he did go thru a hurricane once, and barely felt anything ... nice, but I can't afford one! an interesting note ... I read some place that they tested  a boat of the dimensions conforming to that of the biblical ark, to see how it would handle horrible storms, and found that it was relatively stable and did well ... maybe keep the dimensions somewhat close to those, proportionally ... but ... there is other boats (and those containers) that I need to think and worry about at least, I figure ... down under, I don't have to worry too much about the slamming down the boat after going over the crests, the blunt force of waves crashing into the sides, jarring and cracking things, and water coming in from everywhere ... the sub is all buttoned up and just moved around a bit ... somewhat cushioned without those stressful jolts that does a lot of damage (and not too much garbage to crash into) I did think of being able to go down to 700', but have decided that the costs would be too prohibitive for me there's some navy submariners here ... what were their experiences with storms and in what boats? or is that a "top secret"? --- On Mon, 11/21/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, November 21, 2011, 9:50 AM   On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 09:54:30PM -0800, Roy wrote: > Yeah, apparently so ... then all the more the reason for me to use a sub ... > > am from a sea faring family, and been thinking to go overseas ... > would like to sail, but those 100' rogue waves makes me think twice > ... and so do the storms ... Do note, by the way, that the US Navy considers a sub safe, in a hurricane situation, _only_ when it reaches an area where there's 600 fathoms under it (100 fathoms is considered to be an area of minimal safety.) I was doing a bit of reading just before Hurricane Irene, and ran across a fascinating Navy document on the Web - don't have the link handy right now - that documents the procedure for sub commanders at the big sub yard in Connecticut. You might want to search for it - it's got some excellent reasoning and experience behind the procedures, which it explains in detail. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27037|27008|2011-11-21 12:01:06|Denis Buggy|Re: Tachometer instalation|TOM you can try and fit a tacho from a truck 12/24 volt ? or car --this involves a clock and a wire to the sensor on your propshaft -- this is / can be the hard part as many sensors are probe screwed into the end of the gearbox and a magnetised piece of metal rotates under the sensor and passes close --within 1 mm each revolution and the sensor is called a hall effect sensor and it senses a increased magnetic field and communicates this via a earth wire to the tacho head /clock and your needle reacts accordingly . you can look up electronic components and search hall effect sensors and build your own if you have a little imagination and time -- they are not expensive -- also your gearbox may have a blank plug for this use check with your manufacture as it may also have the magnetised part already fitted if so you are laughing . if you have to do a custom job be careful you do not create an imbalance -- you can drill the front crankshaft pulley and fit a magnetic plug by epoxy gluing it into the hole and replacing the same weight you drilled out and then mounting the hall effect sensor with a simple bracket -- the suppliers or the internet will tell you the distance to use . regards Denis Buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: badpirate36 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Tachometer instalation I have a 1983, 59 hp Mazda truck diesel(b2200) in my Skeg cooled BS/36. Unfortuately, according to my shop manuel this model was never equipped with a tach. Could anyone tell me how to retrofit a tach on a diesel engine not previously equipped? Thanx Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27038|27008|2011-11-21 12:05:59|Matt Malone|Re: Tachometer instalation|There are some really inexpensive tachometer solutions for bicycles too. The numbers might be off by a factor of 2 or 5, and it may say "kilometers per hour", but it will be repeatable, reliable, and easy to install. It will also work really well at low speeds. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: denis@... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 17:01:08 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Tachometer instalation TOM you can try and fit a tacho from a truck 12/24 volt ? or car --this involves a clock and a wire to the sensor on your propshaft -- this is / can be the hard part as many sensors are probe screwed into the end of the gearbox and a magnetised piece of metal rotates under the sensor and passes close --within 1 mm each revolution and the sensor is called a hall effect sensor and it senses a increased magnetic field and communicates this via a earth wire to the tacho head /clock and your needle reacts accordingly . you can look up electronic components and search hall effect sensors and build your own if you have a little imagination and time -- they are not expensive -- also your gearbox may have a blank plug for this use check with your manufacture as it may also have the magnetised part already fitted if so you are laughing . if you have to do a custom job be careful you do not create an imbalance -- you can drill the front crankshaft pulley and fit a magnetic plug by epoxy gluing it into the hole and replacing the same weight you drilled out and then mounting the hall effect sensor with a simple bracket -- the suppliers or the internet will tell you the distance to use . regards Denis Buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: badpirate36 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Tachometer instalation I have a 1983, 59 hp Mazda truck diesel(b2200) in my Skeg cooled BS/36. Unfortuately, according to my shop manuel this model was never equipped with a tach. Could anyone tell me how to retrofit a tach on a diesel engine not previously equipped? Thanx Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27039|26981|2011-11-21 12:09:57|Roy|Re: Containers at sea|so ... out there in deep blue areas, hurricanes/storms are less of a problem than close in around landmasses ... is that a good rule of thumb? how much less? no need for precision at this point ... just some thoughts for me to flow with I am sure the waters such as down there below South America are something I would want to avoid, as I have read of how rough it is, even down below ... but ... the costs of using such as the Panama canal for a sub of under 100'? anyone knows? I am mainly interested in two areas of travel ... one from Gulf and Great Lakes/St. Lawrence River to Europe and the Mediterranean Sea ... and other from Northwest, to such as Asia, Indonesia, and Mid East ... How's this idea ... buy cheap steel from China, assembling it in such as Philippines/Asia where things are a lot cheaper, and use it from there? Have lots of friends/contacts there and probably can set something up along those lines ... Am in western Pa, with good access to rivers and the Great Lakes ... may be moving to Minnesota soon, with same sort of access ... this is what I am dealing with --- On Mon, 11/21/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers at sea To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, November 21, 2011, 11:27 AM The requirement for greater depth than one would likely expect is likely for reasons of temporary unusual currents in shallower water.  There is a substantial bubble of storm surge water under a hurricane.  As it passes, some unusual temporary currents might be generated around land features, and in shallow waters as the ocean water attempts to flow to make that bubble.    There are some places with shallow water that have really unusual currents just from the variation in the tides -- and that cycle repeats month after month, year after year.  Imagine how unpredictable the currents would be from a particular hurricane path.  It might be the waves that make the first breech in hurricane-cuts in bank islands, but I suspect it is the a-typical movement of storm-surge water that washes these new cuts into deep channels.    Mixed with a coincident equipment failure on the submarine, the unpredictable currents and the added challenges of rescue with a hurricane overhead, compounded on the already challenging rescue from a submarine in calm weather, likely dictates the extra caution.    "Lets make sure the submarines are really safe, so we do not have to risk anyone to go help them in a hurry." -- is likely the thinking.    Matt    -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:50:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea                         On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 09:54:30PM -0800, Roy wrote: > Yeah, apparently so ... then all the more the reason for me to use a sub ... > > am from a sea faring family, and been thinking to go overseas ... > would like to sail, but those 100' rogue waves makes me think twice > ... and so do the storms ... Do note, by the way, that the US Navy considers a sub safe, in a hurricane situation, _only_ when it reaches an area where there's 600 fathoms under it (100 fathoms is considered to be an area of minimal safety.) I was doing a bit of reading just before Hurricane Irene, and ran across a fascinating Navy document on the Web - don't have the link handy right now - that documents the procedure for sub commanders at the big sub yard in Connecticut. You might want to search for it - it's got some excellent reasoning and experience behind the procedures, which it explains in detail. Ben --                        OKOPNIK CONSULTING         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming   443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27040|26981|2011-11-21 12:17:47|Ben Okopnik|Re: Containers at sea|On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 08:40:24AM -0800, Roy wrote: > > an interesting note ... I read some place that they tested  a boat of > the dimensions conforming to that of the biblical ark, to see how it would handle > horrible storms, and found that it was relatively stable and did well > ... maybe keep the dimensions somewhat close to those, proportionally > ... but ... there is other boats (and those containers) that I need to > think and worry about I've heard the complete opposite, and reviewing the figures supports this second version: the Ark was supposed to be 450'L x 75'W x 45'H - i.e., about a 6:1 length-to-beam ratio, which is much too narrow for good roll stability, and (ships in those days typically sailing with nothing but cargo for ballast) _way_ too tall for an unpowered barge. It would roll right over in harbor chop, much less bad weather in the ocean. Much like Brent's post here about the Indians in Canada laughing their heads off about the "rained for 40 days and 40 nights and drowned the world" story due to their _actual_ experience of it raining for 6 months out of the year, this one doesn't stand up to inspection too well. :) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27041|26981|2011-11-21 13:54:26|David Frantz|Re: Containers at sea|Even the Navy has crashed into things underwater, even mountains. I don't see where a sub is all that much safer. Sent from my iPad On Nov 21, 2011, at 12:54 AM, Roy wrote: > Yeah, apparently so ... then all the more the reason for me to use a sub ... > > am from a sea faring family, and been thinking to go overseas ... would like to sail, but those 100' rogue waves makes me think twice ... and so do the storms ... > and to miss all the views and life underwater is something I am not willing to bear ... > Been working on designs for a live aboard, capable at least to go 300' under ... > > seems it is the safest route, and probably the most pleasurable ... > > > --- On Sun, 11/20/11, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > From: Gary H. Lucas > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 10:40 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Roy, > > I read in a trade magazine that only about 1/10 of 1 percent of shipping containers are lost at sea each year. Of course there are over 1 billion in use, so that amounts to 1 million lost overboard each year! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > From: Roy > > Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:01 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > Again ... I'm learning ... > > > > It's interesting to see the "shipping containers" being a hazard, in real life ... I can imagine them being a hazard if they ever get to float around in waters, but I'd never would imagine for that to happen, except in very rare instances. Is this that common? > > > > "PL and PD" ... I guess the first one is Personal Liability, and what's next one? > > > > I do agree that a steel hull is better than insurance, especially in middle of ocean! > > > > --- On Wed, 11/16/11, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > From: Norm Moore > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 10:54 AM > > > > You'll probably get a better, more detailed answer from one of the cruising > > > > forums, but briefly what I found is that insurance for blue water cruising is > > > > extremely expensive - prohibitively so. Many cruisers just get PL and PD while > > > > in ports and inland waters where shipping containers aren't typical hazards. > > > > Those that are well heeled get more insurance. All the insurance in the world > > > > won't help you if your boat breaks apart when you hit a container and sinks out > > > > from under you which is one reason a steel hull is better than insurance. > > > > Norm Moore > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: chris123 > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Wed, November 16, 2011 7:29:36 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > Interesting point. What are the issues if any with steel boats and > > > > insurance in general.? FGRP boats in general are quite reasonable pending > > > > the policy options. New to the list so just wondering. > > > > Kind regards > > > > /ch > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:35 AM, GP wrote: > > > >> ** > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Just perusing CruisersForum this morning. There were 2 posts about > > > >> sailboats hitting containers recently and sinking. > > > >> > > > >> Wonder if insurance companies will make some concession to steel boat > > > >> construction? > > > >> > > > >> ... > > > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27042|26981|2011-11-21 14:03:59|Matt Malone|Submarines (was Containers at Sea)|>To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >From: DeafMessianic@... >Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:09:52 -0800 >Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > >so ... out there in deep blue areas, hurricanes/storms are less of a problem than close in around landmasses ... >is that a good rule of thumb? how much less? no need for precision at this point ... just some thoughts for me >to flow with There are so many unquantifiables, it is impossible to say. I am not certain a small sub is all that safe. As far as I know, regular marine radio does not work when submerged. I doubt many people are looking down for your running lights. There might be places in the world where after they call you on their radio, and you do not answer, they assume you are up to no good (drugs) and start blasting you. There are all sorts of people who use the ocean, and some assume they own all the water under their keel, and for a good distance behind them. I would not for instance want to get caught in a trawler net. To them, you might seem by the pull on the net to be nothing more than a stupid whale -- no guarantee they willhaul you in fast. Even when they do, will your sub be right side up? Will it have lost all its air from its bouyancy tanks when it it was inverted ? Will the fisherman take great care in cutting their nets to get you free ? In the current economic climate, unless you can make it perfectly clear to them there are live humans inthat tin can (hard to do when you are hauled in inverted), they might just take expeditious means to remove their problem. There are already plenty of stories of small boats clipped or run down by ships that did not notice or "did not notice" a clearly lit ship on the surface. A sub by definition cannot have much of a profile above the water -- that volume of displaced water that profile has below the water has to be volume in one's flotation tanks to get it above the water. One can have more elevated components than just the anti-wave tube that goes down to the hatch, however, from a distance, anything a small sub can support above the water is going to look really small as compared to the rigging of a sailboat. If you are in a sub and some big freighter rides over you and chews you up, they most certainly did not notice you before it happened, and would be economically motivated and might be inclined to keep on going if they saw some fresh flotsam in their wake. Military submarines are much bigger, carry lots of communications equipment, have an entire organization to plan their routes, clearances, etc, and in the end,are armed, and part of the largest naval gang on the planet. They get more respect from big ships. I think you are also forgetting the mass of a sub. The mass of a sailboat is the same as a piece of water in the same shape as that part of the sailboat that is below the water line. My boat is 10 tons, and I cannot imagine living inside inthat part that is below the water line. A submarine is entirely below the water line. To have a sub the size of my boat, it would have to weigh maybe 60 tons. That is a lot of steel or ballast to get that to go under the water. I have toyed with the idea of a submarine, or submersible boat, but it always comes back to that -- the mass is huge for a small free volume. Lets dream ridiculously big for a second. Say I got ahold of some heavy steel industrial tankage, lets say 20 feet in diameter and 100 feet long, for the cost of hauling it away then what could I build.... If I were laid it on its side and filled about 9 feet deep with solid concrete, then it would be near neutral-bouyant. But that would cost about $60,000 just in concrete... and I would have a 900 ton vessel ! On the plus side,one could mount the engines to drive it right on the concrete surface.... Then there would be space for a 1,200 square foot apartment inside -- that draws 20 feet of water -- with no windows, yet. If one is going to build a 900 ton vessel, then how about a 200-250 foot surface yacht.... There would be room for a wedding, or a tennis court, or a swimming pool. And it probably will not draw 20 feet of water. With a boat that big, you would be your own island. You could probably buy a scrap freighter atless than scrap metal prices and start from there. Going a bit smaller, but looking for a 6 foot headroom on the center line, that isabout an 11-12 foot diameter tube, again assuming concrete. Looking for a 20 foot long living space, 30 foot with tankage etc, then you are looking at 100 tons. Going with lead ballast, and 6' headroom, that is still 45 tons with a smaller beam.. very cosy at about 8 feet in diameter on a 20 foot living space... Recreational cruising submarine -- not worth it. Build a small ROV instead if you want to explore under water and cruise widely. Matt >I am sure the waters such as down there below South America are something >I would want to avoid, as I have read of how rough it is, even down below ... >but ... the costs of using such as the Panama canal for a sub of under 100'? >anyone knows? > >I am mainly interested in two areas of travel ... one from Gulf and Great >Lakes/St. Lawrence River to Europe and the Mediterranean Sea ... and >other from Northwest, to such as Asia, Indonesia, and Mid East ... > >How's this idea ... buy cheap steel from China, assembling it in such as >Philippines/Asia where things are a lot cheaper, and use it from there? >Have lots of friends/contacts there and probably can set something up >along those lines ... > >Am in western Pa, with good access to rivers and the Great Lakes ... may be moving to Minnesota soon, with same sort of access ... this is what I am >dealing with [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27043|26981|2011-11-21 15:02:40|Roy|Re: Containers at sea|Matt, didn't notice this "mouse over" effect ... thanks those composites are out for me ... too expensive ... and I just don't like dealing with chemicals! steel is OK ... concrete is OK ... I deal with those all the time and do have connections to get either for free or really cheap ... done lots of auto/truck wrecking and repairs and recycling ... been into lots of stuff, and I do scourge and improvise a lot ... family is active on rivers and trucking ... good sources and ideas for needed stuff ... have means and connections to accomplish what I am trying to do ... I am very unorthodox ... I am like that man who built that sub in an attempt to raise that ship (no offense to that guy meant ... forgot his name) ...  no frills needed ... am a hillbilly, and used to living simple in these hills ... my family have been in these hills for so long (since 1720) that I've really simplified to the basics ... in case you wonder ... other than that ancestor who settled down here back then and his descendants (including me) ... lots of the rest of my family are on seas ... (they are Dutch and have been sailing for a long time) ... have loved the seas ever since I was little ... maybe its that adventurer spirit in me, I dunno ... (I do love to fly, too ... and no family to explain for that one) I love these hills deeply, and will miss them, but I got places I want to see, people to meet, and some needed things to get done ... time had come for me ... why not just go and do something about it? --- On Mon, 11/21/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, November 21, 2011, 11:02 AM Roy, if you mouse-over the word "composites" it shows to ovals inside the larger composite region, for CFRP - Carbon fibre reinforced plastic and GFRP - glass fibre reinforced plastic.   Mouse-over back and forth between the metals "AND" "ALLOYS" -- AND gives you high alloys, ALLOYS gives you low alloys.  Comparing mild steel to CFRP and GFRP is interesting, however, the graph is logarithmic, so a small difference is important.  I wish they had an oval for Kevlar.  I believe this graph is leaving out three things: The strength is in the fibre direction for composites, so, a 50/50 laminate that gives more balanced properties in two planar directions (application for a boat) is automatically about half as strong so shift the composite ovals down a little less than a half a decade.   Also, the fibre to plastic fraction is probably representative of best practices in layups -- expect your vacuum-bagged production graphite mast to be at this level -- expect your old fibreglass hand-layup mat-glass boat to be 60% of this level, so again, move the ovals for hull composites down a bit.   One important thing that they are leaving out that benefits composites, is reduced weight.  Pound for pound, the glass fibre oval would go up by about a factor of two as compared to steel, graphite by a factor of 3.    The graph is also leaving out the effects of forming a metal boat.   A composite hull is formed with near zero residual stress in its finished shape, whereas, a metal boat that is not poured in one piece is likely to have stress concentrations from forming.   With mild steel there is plasticity to help with that, but this is something else not factored into the graphs.    I would be interested to see where Corten steel lands on the graph.  I have encountered some low alloy, high strength sheet steels before that I have found to be startlingly tough in applications.   As I am drilling them or cutting them, or trying to use a center punch on them, I am going, wow, this is tough stuff.   Again, the graph is logarithmic so the oval for "Low Alloy Steels" offers massive improvements in either strength or toughness over mild steel or even a little of both, depending on where in that oval the steel alloy falls.    Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: DeafMessianic@... Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:57:50 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea                         interesting ... what would some examples of "composites" be? --- On Sun, 11/20/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 10:12 PM The previous poster is confusing stiffness with strength.   Pound for pound, good wood is about the same stiffness (rigidity) as steel, but is not as strong per weight, and not as tough per weight.   What Brent is talking about, impact, is a combination of toughness and strength.  In the end, remember, one splits and cuts wood reasonably easy with an axe.  This is a good chart: http://www-materials.eng.cam.ac.uk/mpsite/interactive_charts/strength-toughness/NS6Chart.html Matt ---------------------------------------------------------- To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 00:13:05 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea                         My 36 is plated with 3/16th plate, which has the same tensile strength as 7 1/2 inch douglas fir. A 308 will shoot thru 23 inches of douglas fir, but  barely make it thru 3/8th  inch mild  steel plate, as a comparison of the impact strength of the two materials. Steel has 40 times the strength to weight of wood. A mild steel weld has 100% the stength of the surrounding material , a copper fastening in wood has a tiny fraction the strength of the  surrounding matertial. Mild steel will stretch 40% before fracturing , wood, a tiny fraction that before fracturing. Wood  is the flimsiest and most trouble prone material ever used to  build  a boat out of. It's the last thing I would ever want to collide with anything at  sea in, or even go to sea in, for that matter.. I have regularly, deliberately  T boned log booms at hull speed, with zero risk of damage. Wood boaters are afraid to sail a night in BC waters for fear of hitting  a single log, and quickly sinking. .      --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > > I agree about the "plastic" boats ... but wood? > pound for pound, it is a lot stronger than steel ... if built right, wood should do very well > > --- On Wed, 11/16/11, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 3:15 PM > > > > > > > > >  > > > >    > > >      >        >        >       I heard recently on CBC Radio that the first debris from the japan earthquake,  including steel fishboats is about to start hitting the BC coast.  Differences in wndage is spreading the debris out over thousands of miles, and will continue to do so until it covers the entire North Pacific. Expect the number of plastic boats sinking from colisions with such debris to incrase drastically over the next few years. That should increase demand for, and appreciation of steel boats. > >  Got a plastic or wood boat? Sell it and go metal! Beat the rush.  > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai@" wrote: > > > > > > Did you forget about japans earthquake > > > > > > Sent from my ACS Android > > > > > > -----Original message----- > > > From: Matt Malone > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 15:58:42 GMT+00:00 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the number of sailboats that hit a container at sea will always be  > > > low in comparison to the number of insured sailboats, so, the marginal  > > > difference in a steel boat, spread over the probabilities, would result in a  > > > tiny change in the cost of insurance vs. sinking and replacing an orgami.    > > > I think what is probably of more concern to insurance companies with a  > > > blue-water-capable boat is a collision where the sailboat puts a hole in  > > > something fragile and really expensive and the expensive thing requires a  > > > huge effort to save it from sinking, and huge effort to replace its  > > > custom-carpentered wood interior, top of the line systems... And that is  > > > before considering injuries and casualities.   After all, any boat that can  > > > hit a log at hull speed and have no problem at all is likely to make a real  > > > impression on a big fibreglass coastal cruiser, and the target fibreglass  > > > boat will absorb all the impact damage. > > > > > > I remember reading an article where someone had built a beautiful steel  > > > boat, and painted it with so much epoxy paint they said they had a  > > > steel-cored epoxy boat.  They also mentioned their fear of sinking another  > > > boat as one of their major concerns when purchasing insurance.    > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: chris.herrnberger@ > > > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:29:36 -0500 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > >    > > > > > > > > >      > > >        > > >        > > >       Interesting point. What are the issues if any with steel boats and > > > > > > insurance in general.? FGRP boats in general are quite reasonable pending > > > > > > the policy options. New to the list so just wondering. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:35 AM, GP wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just perusing CruisersForum this morning. There were 2 posts about > > > > > > > sailboats hitting containers recently and sinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wonder if insurance companies will make some concession to steel boat > > > > > > > construction? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >      > > >      > > > > > >      > > >      > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >                              > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > >      >      > >      >      > > > > > > >    > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >                                                 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27044|27007|2011-11-21 15:25:16|martin demers|Re: Best Engine for BS 36|Pathfinder are here in Montreal, I send an e-mail about some modification on their engine (air filter)and I received an answer.(about 1 year ago) but some people said they had some problems doing business with them. the parts they are using are all from England or europe and are available but it can be expensive when bought separetely. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: daveddaved@... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:31:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Best Engine for BS 36 My boat (a ferro!) has what is called a Pathfinder. It's an older 1.5 or 1.6 automotive diesel converted to marine. The bits and pieces were produced by a Canadian company. There is not much info on the net and Pathfinder wants you to pay for any info from what I can figure out. The biggest bit is a Bowman heat exchanger -- possibly available from England. Let me know if you would like additional info I have the printed manual and parts views. I've also see that VW made marine engines recently. Again, check the 'net. It seems they've merged or something with Cummins. On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 7:22 PM, David L. Jones wrote: > James, > > No worries, I also mis-quoted what the 1.6L has for horsepower, it's not > 74 hp, it's either 59 hp for the non-turbo model and 68 hp for the turbo > model. Both are nice engines and pretty much exactly what I'd like to put > in my sail boat... Both are fully mechanical. 130,000 km is not much if it > was maintained well for those miles. I have a friend of mine running one > that has over 250,000 miles on it and the motor runs and sounds excellent. > It has been well maintained for all those miles... > > You will have to modify it to run it in a boat. But if you are up to the > task, I don't think you'll find a more efficient diesel. If you can sell > it for the same price as what you have to pay for a diesel all set-up to > drop in your boat, then that could be a good option... > > dj > > > On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, James Pronk wrote: > > > Sorry my mistake, it is a 1.6 L from a 1985 Jetta with 130 000 km on it. > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27045|26981|2011-11-21 19:46:19|jhess314|Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|CLASS LENGTH(m) BEAM(m) RATIO Coastal 205 29 7:1 Aframax 245 34 7:1 Suezmax 285 45 6:1 VLCC 330 55 6:1 ULCC 415 63 7:1 http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch5en/appl5en/tankers.html --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 08:40:24AM -0800, Roy wrote: > > > > an interesting note ... I read some place that they tested  a boat of > > the dimensions conforming to that of the biblical ark, to see how it would handle > > horrible storms, and found that it was relatively stable and did well > > ... maybe keep the dimensions somewhat close to those, proportionally > > ... but ... there is other boats (and those containers) that I need to > > think and worry about > > I've heard the complete opposite, and reviewing the figures supports > this second version: the Ark was supposed to be 450'L x 75'W x 45'H - > i.e., about a 6:1 length-to-beam ratio, which is much too narrow for > good roll stability, and (ships in those days typically sailing with > nothing but cargo for ballast) _way_ too tall for an unpowered barge. It > would roll right over in harbor chop, much less bad weather in the > ocean. > > Much like Brent's post here about the Indians in Canada laughing their > heads off about the "rained for 40 days and 40 nights and drowned the > world" story due to their _actual_ experience of it raining for 6 months > out of the year, this one doesn't stand up to inspection too well. :) > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > | 27046|26981|2011-11-21 20:02:01|jhess314|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|See also http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/container-types.htm for large container ship sizes. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > CLASS LENGTH(m) BEAM(m) RATIO > Coastal 205 29 7:1 > Aframax 245 34 7:1 > Suezmax 285 45 6:1 > VLCC 330 55 6:1 > ULCC 415 63 7:1 > > http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch5en/appl5en/tankers.html > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 08:40:24AM -0800, Roy wrote: > > > > > > an interesting note ... I read some place that they tested  a boat of > > > the dimensions conforming to that of the biblical ark, to see how it would handle > > > horrible storms, and found that it was relatively stable and did well > > > ... maybe keep the dimensions somewhat close to those, proportionally > > > ... but ... there is other boats (and those containers) that I need to > > > think and worry about > > > > I've heard the complete opposite, and reviewing the figures supports > > this second version: the Ark was supposed to be 450'L x 75'W x 45'H - > > i.e., about a 6:1 length-to-beam ratio, which is much too narrow for > > good roll stability, and (ships in those days typically sailing with > > nothing but cargo for ballast) _way_ too tall for an unpowered barge. It > > would roll right over in harbor chop, much less bad weather in the > > ocean. > > > > Much like Brent's post here about the Indians in Canada laughing their > > heads off about the "rained for 40 days and 40 nights and drowned the > > world" story due to their _actual_ experience of it raining for 6 months > > out of the year, this one doesn't stand up to inspection too well. :) > > > > > > Ben > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > > | 27047|27008|2011-11-21 22:00:40|badpirate36|Re: Tachometer instalation|Thanx for the replies. The alternator method sounds great. I even found a referance in my engine manuel; alternator 1500rpm - engine 850rpm, alt 3000rpm - eng 1350rpm. Thanx again Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > I have a 1983, 59 hp Mazda truck diesel(b2200) in my Skeg cooled BS/36. Unfortuately, according to my shop manuel this model was never equipped with a tach. Could anyone tell me how to retrofit a tach on a diesel engine not previously equipped? > > Thanx > Tom > | 27048|26981|2011-11-21 22:10:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 12:46:17AM -0000, jhess314 wrote: > CLASS LENGTH(m) BEAM(m) RATIO > Coastal 205 29 7:1 > Aframax 245 34 7:1 > Suezmax 285 45 6:1 > VLCC 330 55 6:1 > ULCC 415 63 7:1 > > http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch5en/appl5en/tankers.html Did I not say - and is it not patently obvious - that we're speaking of an unpowered barge?... oh yes, I did mention it explicitly: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > the Ark was supposed to be 450'L x 75'W x 45'H - > > i.e., about a 6:1 length-to-beam ratio, which is much too narrow for > > good roll stability, and (ships in those days typically sailing with > > nothing but cargo for ballast) _way_ too tall for an unpowered barge. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ One without any high-density ballast, either - no large-scale lead or even iron production, you see. Add in an absence of directional control (since, you know, *unpowered* barge?), and you have a longish, skinny box with a _very_ small amount of roll resistance - one that _will_ get rolled in anything resembling normal ocean weather. Oh, and did I mention the constantly-shifting cargo? Lots of *good*, properly-designed ships went down for that one reason alone. (Don't even need to get into stowing the tens of thousand pairs of animals as well as their feed and their water - all the different kinds of feed, too, including fresh meat for the predators (???) - or the job of distributing those necessities, _daily,_ by one family - in a 450' hull. Heck, just think of the dung clean-up detail...) Thought experiment: take a 3'-long piece of 2"x4" board and float it in a body of water with some small waves on it. Would you put $100 on it _not_ rolling over within 10 minutes? (Hint: I'll take the other side of that bet, anytime.) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27049|26981|2011-11-22 08:22:42|jhess314|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|$100? Hmmm... I've got 36 cents in my pocket. (lol) I'll bet your 2"x4"x3' board won't roll in the water unless you've got breaking waves. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 12:46:17AM -0000, jhess314 wrote: > > CLASS LENGTH(m) BEAM(m) RATIO > > Coastal 205 29 7:1 > > Aframax 245 34 7:1 > > Suezmax 285 45 6:1 > > VLCC 330 55 6:1 > > ULCC 415 63 7:1 > > > > http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch5en/appl5en/tankers.html > > > Did I not say - and is it not patently obvious - that we're speaking of > an unpowered barge?... oh yes, I did mention it explicitly: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > the Ark was supposed to be 450'L x 75'W x 45'H - > > > i.e., about a 6:1 length-to-beam ratio, which is much too narrow for > > > good roll stability, and (ships in those days typically sailing with > > > nothing but cargo for ballast) _way_ too tall for an unpowered barge. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > One without any high-density ballast, either - no large-scale lead or > even iron production, you see. Add in an absence of directional control > (since, you know, *unpowered* barge?), and you have a longish, skinny > box with a _very_ small amount of roll resistance - one that _will_ get > rolled in anything resembling normal ocean weather. Oh, and did I > mention the constantly-shifting cargo? Lots of *good*, properly-designed > ships went down for that one reason alone. > > (Don't even need to get into stowing the tens of thousand pairs of > animals as well as their feed and their water - all the different kinds > of feed, too, including fresh meat for the predators (???) - or the job > of distributing those necessities, _daily,_ by one family - in a 450' > hull. Heck, just think of the dung clean-up detail...) > > Thought experiment: take a 3'-long piece of 2"x4" board and float it in > a body of water with some small waves on it. Would you put $100 on it > _not_ rolling over within 10 minutes? > > (Hint: I'll take the other side of that bet, anytime.) > > > Ben | 27050|26999|2011-11-22 08:45:16|chris123|Re: Origami builds|tks / ch On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 7:15 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > Yes ,no problem. Just take the shapes off the hull lines or a model and > build her using origami methods. It will work with any hard chined design. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > wrote: > > > > Greets: > > > > Was wondering since this is the origami boat list...say you had a plan > > for steel boat. Is it possible to convert that plan into and origami > > style build hull. Sure would love to hear more stuff about boat > > building. > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27051|26981|2011-11-22 08:46:02|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 01:22:41PM -0000, jhess314 wrote: > $100? Hmmm... I've got 36 cents in my pocket. (lol) I'll bet your > 2"x4"x3' board won't roll in the water unless you've got breaking > waves. Why not give it a shot, John? It would be a useful thing for you to learn about boats. Otherwise, the first time you get into serious weather might be the last time. Even with a properly-designed boat, you need to understand what a boat requires in order to survive. Without that understanding, you're not fit to be out on the sea. Here's a start on understanding what'll happen: that 2x4, if initially placed perpendicular to the waves, is in an unstable position in terms of rotation in the horizontal plane. As a result, the first couple of waves will turn it until it is parallel to the waves. Once that happens, its aspect ratio of 2 to 1 presents very little resistance to the rolling moment presented by the waves. Even the small but sharp chop produced by, say, reflection off a nearby rock or on top of a shoal would be enough to send it rolling. A powered vessel - whether sail- or engine-driven - can prevent that initial rotation, and thus usually avoid being rolled. Unpowered vessel, not a chance. Otherwise, people would be transporting stuff from the US to Europe by just stuffing it into floating boxes and launching it into the Gulf Stream - no fuel costs! :) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27052|26981|2011-11-22 09:37:09|jhess314|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|Ben, I just went to my garage and cut off a short piece of 2x4. I placed it on its 2" edge in a pan of water. Then I tipped it towards its 4" side until it started to want to roll flat. I'm guessing that it is stable on its 4" side to about 70 or 80 degrees from horizontal. I will be happy to take the opposite side of your $100 bet, subject to no breaking waves. I accept PayPal. (lol) (some fun photos) http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ital_Florida_Collision.jpg http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ship_Overkeel.jpg http://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20080316-ChinaShipping2-772168%20eric%20stone%20blog.jpg http://www.strangebusiness.com/images/content/14825.JPG http://exportlogisticsguide.com/images/capsize.jpg https://hrlibrary.wikispaces.com/file/view/container_ship.jpg/50590213/container_ship.jpg http://www.web-l.com/things-you-wont-see-on-cnn/fallen-containers-on-container-ship.jpg John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 01:22:41PM -0000, jhess314 wrote: > > $100? Hmmm... I've got 36 cents in my pocket. (lol) I'll bet your > > 2"x4"x3' board won't roll in the water unless you've got breaking > > waves. > > Why not give it a shot, John? It would be a useful thing for you to > learn about boats. Otherwise, the first time you get into serious > weather might be the last time. Even with a properly-designed boat, you > need to understand what a boat requires in order to survive. Without > that understanding, you're not fit to be out on the sea. > > Here's a start on understanding what'll happen: that 2x4, if initially > placed perpendicular to the waves, is in an unstable position in terms > of rotation in the horizontal plane. As a result, the first couple of > waves will turn it until it is parallel to the waves. Once that happens, > its aspect ratio of 2 to 1 presents very little resistance to the > rolling moment presented by the waves. Even the small but sharp chop > produced by, say, reflection off a nearby rock or on top of a shoal > would be enough to send it rolling. > > A powered vessel - whether sail- or engine-driven - can prevent that > initial rotation, and thus usually avoid being rolled. Unpowered vessel, > not a chance. Otherwise, people would be transporting stuff from the US > to Europe by just stuffing it into floating boxes and launching it into > the Gulf Stream - no fuel costs! :) > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > | 27053|26981|2011-11-22 11:10:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 02:36:51PM -0000, jhess314 wrote: > Ben, > I just went to my garage and cut off a short piece of 2x4. I placed > it on its 2" edge in a pan of water. Then I tipped it towards its 4" > side until it started to want to roll flat. I'm guessing that it is > stable on its 4" side to about 70 or 80 degrees from horizontal. That's not valid experiment design - it doesn't demonstrate what it was supposed to (which is the _real_ definition of "failed experiment". :) It doesn't simulate the front edge of a short, steep wave - i.e., chop. It also doesn't create the pendulum dynamics of repeated waves, and it elides the compound effect of the back of the preceding wave as well as the front of the following one affecting the board at the same time. You're talking about essentially static forces, and the whole problem is that they're dynamic. > I will be happy to take the opposite side of your $100 bet, subject to > no breaking waves. I accept PayPal. (lol) So... you're saying that you _will_ pay up if I post a video with a short 2x4 rolling over in seas with no breaking waves, right? Please pick some trustworthy person here on the list to hold a hundred apiece in escrow, and I'll happily take the time to make that video. :) > (some fun photos) > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ital_Florida_Collision.jpg > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ship_Overkeel.jpg > http://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20080316-ChinaShipping2-772168%20eric%20stone%20blog.jpg > http://www.strangebusiness.com/images/content/14825.JPG > http://exportlogisticsguide.com/images/capsize.jpg > https://hrlibrary.wikispaces.com/file/view/container_ship.jpg/50590213/container_ship.jpg > http://www.web-l.com/things-you-wont-see-on-cnn/fallen-containers-on-container-ship.jpg *OUCH!* :) Let's note that all of these _were_ designed for at least reasonable survivability in weather that's "controlled" by routing via professional meteorologists, satellite views, etc. - and they were all powered vessels as well. Reinforces my point pretty well, I think. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27054|26981|2011-11-22 12:30:07|Matt Malone|Containers on ships|I have to believe on some of those higher stacked ships, the containers are empty, returning to China. There is such an over-supply of containers in my area that one can buy them reasonably cheaply. They make a good workshop / storage shed / tool lockup for a rural property -- with some extra guarding welded on near the locks. Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Wrote: http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ital_Florida_Collision.jpg http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ship_Overkeel.jpg http://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20080316-ChinaShipping2-772168%20eric%20stone%20blog.jpg http://www.strangebusiness.com/images/content/14825.JPG http://exportlogisticsguide.com/images/capsize.jpg https://hrlibrary.wikispaces.com/file/view/container_ship.jpg/50590213/container_ship.jpg http://www.web-l.com/things-you-wont-see-on-cnn/fallen-containers-on-container-ship.jpg John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27055|26981|2011-11-22 12:41:31|jhess314|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|Ben, I agree that its not a completely valid experiment, only a simple, easy to perform, physical experiment -- but, I dare say, more informative than the "thought experiment" you proposed. The real data that informs my position are the thousands of 6:1 tankers and freighters, some with apparently top-heavy loads, plying the world's oceans. The largest freighters are taking the rough-water routes around Cape Horn and Cape of Good Hope, because they don't fit through the Panama and Suez canals -- and some may even be too deep for the Malacca Straits as well! Surely some of them, at some point, lose power in a storm. Did they roll over when broadside to the waves? I don't think so, unless hit by enormous breaking waves. Waves seldom get all that steep except, as you mentioned, when shoaling or intersecting. A 2x4 lying flat on the water appears to me to be much more stable than those container ships. I understand that at least some of the super-waves that occasionally occur in mid-ocean actually may happen above a seamount -- in other words, shoaling water for a huge wave. When my wife and I bet each other we typically limit the bet to 1 penny. I was really going out on a limb to offer 36 cents -- the total value of what was in my pocket at the time! We've found that one penny provides a sufficient ego-boost to the winner, and doesn't materially add to the loser's pain of defeat. For what its worth, we've been happily married for a number of decades :) I've now proposed a thought experiment (observing real-life ships) and conducted a physical experiment (2x4 in pan of water), both of which give credence to my opinion. I look forward to seeing the video of your physical experiment. Best Regards, John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 02:36:51PM -0000, jhess314 wrote: > > Ben, > > I just went to my garage and cut off a short piece of 2x4. I placed > > it on its 2" edge in a pan of water. Then I tipped it towards its 4" > > side until it started to want to roll flat. I'm guessing that it is > > stable on its 4" side to about 70 or 80 degrees from horizontal. > > That's not valid experiment design - it doesn't demonstrate what it was > supposed to (which is the _real_ definition of "failed experiment". :) > It doesn't simulate the front edge of a short, steep wave - i.e., chop. > It also doesn't create the pendulum dynamics of repeated waves, and it > elides the compound effect of the back of the preceding wave as well as > the front of the following one affecting the board at the same time. > You're talking about essentially static forces, and the whole problem is > that they're dynamic. > > > I will be happy to take the opposite side of your $100 bet, subject to > > no breaking waves. I accept PayPal. (lol) > > So... you're saying that you _will_ pay up if I post a video with a > short 2x4 rolling over in seas with no breaking waves, right? Please > pick some trustworthy person here on the list to hold a hundred apiece > in escrow, and I'll happily take the time to make that video. :) > > > (some fun photos) > > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ital_Florida_Collision.jpg > > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ship_Overkeel.jpg > > http://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20080316-ChinaShipping2-772168%20eric%20stone%20blog.jpg > > http://www.strangebusiness.com/images/content/14825.JPG > > http://exportlogisticsguide.com/images/capsize.jpg > > https://hrlibrary.wikispaces.com/file/view/container_ship.jpg/50590213/container_ship.jpg > > http://www.web-l.com/things-you-wont-see-on-cnn/fallen-containers-on-container-ship.jpg > > *OUCH!* :) > > Let's note that all of these _were_ designed for at least reasonable > survivability in weather that's "controlled" by routing via professional > meteorologists, satellite views, etc. - and they were all powered > vessels as well. Reinforces my point pretty well, I think. > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > | 27056|27056|2011-11-22 12:43:20|Tantonyachts@aol.com|hey!|This is for you:) http://www.healthbrains.com/tablets.html| 27057|26981|2011-11-22 13:38:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 05:41:29PM -0000, jhess314 wrote: > > The real data > that informs my position are the thousands of 6:1 tankers and > freighters, some with apparently top-heavy loads, plying the world's > oceans. Again, we're talking about two completely different things: an unpowered barge vs. a ship with a very high power factor. You've also skipped the bit about ballast, which is a critically-precise requirement in commercial vessels; e.g., Panamax vessels typically draw about 40', which is a pretty serious amount of ballast. > The largest freighters are taking the rough-water routes > around Cape Horn and Cape of Good Hope, because they don't fit through > the Panama and Suez canals -- and some may even be too deep for the > Malacca Straits as well! Surely some of them, at some point, lose > power in a storm. Why would you assume this? Basic logic says that a) their power systems are designed to be exceptionally reliable, b) have on-board engineers to maintain them, c) most likely have some kind of backup systems (i.e., a "harbor engine" in addition to the "sea engine"), and d) are (due to the weather routing) unlikely to end up in storm conditions anyway. For all of these factors to cross would be extraordinary (which is the bet that all these companies take in the first place, since those ships aren't designed for maximum seaworthiness but for the greatest cargo-carrying capacity.) The only account in which I've read of a ship like that in serious weather was in "The Perfect Storm": as I recall, there was a Japanese freighter with an American reporter on board that jammed its rudder. When that happened, it was deemed unsafe for the crew and they were taken off - the ship was abandoned. Why would they do that if being unsteerable didn't instantly make into a totally unseaworthy tub? > Did they roll over when broadside to the waves? I > don't think so, unless hit by enormous breaking waves. Waves seldom > get all that steep except, as you mentioned, when shoaling or > intersecting. A 2x4 lying flat on the water appears to me to be much > more stable than those container ships. Much more stable without ballast? Not possible, I'm afraid. > When my wife and I bet each other we typically limit the bet to 1 > penny. I was really going out on a limb to offer 36 cents -- the > total value of what was in my pocket at the time! We've found that > one penny provides a sufficient ego-boost to the winner, and doesn't > materially add to the loser's pain of defeat. For what its worth, > we've been happily married for a number of decades :) Well... OK, you've convinced me - I like your reasoning. But I'll expect that penny promptly, darn it! :))) (Peripheral note for everyone: if you've got to send or receive money within the US (soon to add Canada as well), Dwolla.com charges $0.25 for a transaction of any size. No credit or debit cards involved; it's just cash over the Internet. They've managed to impress me with their business plan, model, and growth rate.) > I've now proposed a thought experiment (observing real-life ships) and > conducted a physical experiment (2x4 in pan of water), both of which > give credence to my opinion. I look forward to seeing the video of > your physical experiment. Neither one of the above is valid, as I believe I've explained - but I'll give it a shot. It's a cold, gray, nasty day out today and I have a bunch of work to do on board, so I'll be on the lookout for suitable conditions in the next few days and see if I can post something. You guys are going to make me into a YouTube fanatic yet. :) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27058|27056|2011-11-22 13:58:05|Ben Okopnik|Re: hey!|On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 12:10:42PM -0500, Tantonyachts@... wrote: > This is for you:) http://www.healthbrains.com/tablets.html Dear Yves-Marie - Someone seems to have cracked into your AOL account (header analysis shows that the above spam email originated at AOL.) I suggest that you change your password as soon as possible. Best regards, Ben Okopnik, co-Moderator, Origami Boats group --| 27059|27056|2011-11-22 14:00:24|Ben Okopnik|Re: hey!|On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 01:57:40PM -0500, Benjamin Okopnik wrote: > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 12:10:42PM -0500, Tantonyachts@... wrote: > > Dear Yves-Marie - Argh, that was meant to be private. Sorry about the extra noise, folks - just trying to keep this forum clean and tidy for everyone. :) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27060|26981|2011-11-22 15:16:36|wild_explorer|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|Breaking Waves A boat beam on to a breaking wave is in greatest danger of capsize. A breaking wave need only be the same height as the beam of the boat to roll it over. More intros about stability: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Origami_hulls_and_stability/1st_Read_Me/ P.S. Usually, beamier boat has better initial stability, narrow boat has better ultimate stability. Some formulas: http://www.sailingusa.info/formula.htm| 27061|26981|2011-11-22 16:08:09|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 08:16:33PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Breaking Waves > > A boat beam on to a breaking wave is in > greatest danger of capsize. > > A breaking wave need only be the same > height as the beam of the boat to roll it > over. The worst seas I've ever experienced in all my time at sea - ones that came within a couple of seconds of turning me turtle - weren't even in a storm; I encountered them on leaving the Ft. Pierce, FL ocean inlet on the outgoing tide, in beautiful sunny weather. The long-shore current on the outside collided with the water zooming out of the river, and my 34' OSTAR boat, "Recessional", nose-dove into a trough and barely came back up. The confused water was only about 400 yards wide, but I'd swear it took me an hour and several gallons of sweat to cross. Couldn't have been more than 500 yards offshore, either, and without previous experience, it was rather hard to tell that it was that rough until you entered it. I doubt that the wave height was more than 6' or so. The waves were, as best as I recall, about 25-30' apart, and very "blocky", so that the bow would literally tip and then fall over the edge - and then get stopped dead by burying itself in the backside of the preceding wave, which would then throw the boat on its starboard beam (the wind was coming over the port side, so the sail was over to starboard.) It just happened to be perfectly-shaped for killing boats that size. Brrr. Very, very rough experience, that one. Later on, when I ran into short breaking seas (plus a very rocky lee shore, etc.) off the NE corner of the Dominican Republic, it was almost fun; actually, once I got everything stabilized, it _was_ fun, since "Recessional" just surfed the faces and carried nicely through the troughs. A couple of hours of that, and I doubled Balandra Head and was running down to Samana with most of a gale behind me; arrived there with a grin from one ear to the other. Even my girlfriend started enjoying it about half-way through, once she saw how "Recessional" just danced through that stuff. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27062|26676|2011-11-22 17:51:44|martin demers|Re: keel fuel tank coating and rust cleaning|Hi Brent, Do you think painting the half up of the keel fuel thank is good enough? ( I am suggesting that the botom half will remain wet from the fuel) martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:58:49 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: keel fuel tank coating and rust cleaning I once had a bare steel diesel tank. It corroded on the top which was not covered by diesel. One can't rely on the tank being full all the time. Some condensation can do the same to the bottom. Since then I have always coated my tanks with epoxy tar, no problems. I put a long, tubular screen on the pickup, so if any epoxy comes loose, it will stay in the tank, and not get into any hoses. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > hello Brent, > > > I am now straightening the sides of my full keel(probably had some ice who froze inside before I bought the boat) and will sandblast the inside wich I will use as a fuel tank. > I presume it has to be very clean if fuel is to be stored in there? > and does it has to be coated or left on bare metal? > > Martin. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27063|26676|2011-11-22 19:01:00|James Pronk|Re: keel fuel tank coating and rust cleaning|If you get any water in your fuel it will be at the bottom of your tank. James --- On Tue, 11/22/11, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: keel fuel tank coating and rust cleaning To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, November 22, 2011, 5:51 PM Hi Brent, Do you think painting the half up of the keel fuel thank is good enough? ( I am suggesting that the botom half will remain wet from the fuel) martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:58:49 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: keel fuel tank coating and rust cleaning   I once had a bare steel diesel tank. It corroded on the top which was not covered by diesel. One can't rely on the tank being full all the time. Some condensation can do the same to the bottom. Since then I have always coated my tanks with epoxy tar, no problems. I put a long, tubular screen on the pickup, so if any epoxy comes loose, it will stay in the tank, and not get into any hoses. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > hello Brent, > > > I am now straightening the sides of my full keel(probably had some ice who froze inside before I bought the boat) and will sandblast the inside wich I will use as a fuel tank. > I presume it has to be very clean if fuel is to be stored in there? > and does it has to be coated or left on bare metal? > > Martin. >                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27064|26981|2011-11-22 20:43:46|Brian Stannard|Re: Containers on ships|That's probably worse - the empty ones will stay afloat longer if they fall over. On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Matt Malone wrote: > ** > > > > > I have to believe on some of those higher stacked ships, the containers > are empty, returning to China. There is such an over-supply of containers > in my area that one can buy them reasonably cheaply. They make a good > workshop / storage shed / tool lockup for a rural property -- with some > extra guarding welded on near the locks. > > Matt > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > John Wrote: > > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ital_Florida_Collision.jpg > > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ship_Overkeel.jpg > > > http://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20080316-ChinaShipping2-772168%20eric%20stone%20blog.jpg > > http://www.strangebusiness.com/images/content/14825.JPG > > http://exportlogisticsguide.com/images/capsize.jpg > > > https://hrlibrary.wikispaces.com/file/view/container_ship.jpg/50590213/container_ship.jpg > > > http://www.web-l.com/things-you-wont-see-on-cnn/fallen-containers-on-container-ship.jpg > > John > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27065|26981|2011-11-22 21:41:25|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Containers on ships|I'd bet the full ones will stay afloat longer. Container doors are not completely watertight so they will leak continuously until the container sinks. An awful lot of what is shipped in containers is less dense than water, and protected by the container, a full one will likely stay afloat for quite a long time. Gary H. Lucas -----Original Message----- From: Brian Stannard Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 8:43 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers on ships That's probably worse - the empty ones will stay afloat longer if they fall over. On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Matt Malone wrote: > ** > > > > > I have to believe on some of those higher stacked ships, the containers > are empty, returning to China. There is such an over-supply of containers > in my area that one can buy them reasonably cheaply. They make a good > workshop / storage shed / tool lockup for a rural property -- with some > extra guarding welded on near the locks. > > Matt > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > John Wrote: > > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ital_Florida_Collision.jpg > > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ship_Overkeel.jpg > > > http://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20080316-ChinaShipping2-772168%20eric%20stone%20blog.jpg > > http://www.strangebusiness.com/images/content/14825.JPG > > http://exportlogisticsguide.com/images/capsize.jpg > > > https://hrlibrary.wikispaces.com/file/view/container_ship.jpg/50590213/container_ship.jpg > > > http://www.web-l.com/things-you-wont-see-on-cnn/fallen-containers-on-container-ship.jpg > > John > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ | 27066|26981|2011-11-22 22:35:14|David L. Jones|Re: Containers on ships|This is the second time I've heard this comment about containers being returned empty... They essentially do not ship containers back empty. It costs less to build a new container in Asia than it does to ship an empty container back from the USA. Of course, I'm not talking about the Refers, just the standard containers... Those high stacked containers are not likely empty. If you look at a container carefully, you will see in all eight corners a square block of metal with holes in it, top and sides for the top 4 and bottom and sides for the bottom four. There are special connectors that lock these all together. Those containers are like huge legos that all lock together. When they are put on the ship, they end up being almost a solid structure. Notice, several of those cargo ships hit ground, are in bad shape and the containers haven't moved... dj On Tue, 22 Nov 2011, Matt Malone wrote: > > > I have to believe on some of those higher stacked ships, the containers > are empty, returning to China. There is such an over-supply of containers > in my area that one can buy them reasonably cheaply. They make a good > workshop / storage shed / tool lockup for a rural property -- with some > extra guarding welded on near the locks. > > Matt > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > John Wrote: > > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ital_Florida_Collision.jpg > > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ship_Overkeel.jpg > > http://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20080316-ChinaShipping2-772168%20eric%20stone%20blog.jpg > > http://www.strangebusiness.com/images/content/14825.JPG > > http://exportlogisticsguide.com/images/capsize.jpg > > https://hrlibrary.wikispaces.com/file/view/container_ship.jpg/50590213/container_ship.jpg > > http://www.web-l.com/things-you-wont-see-on-cnn/fallen-containers-on-container-ship.jpg > > > > John > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 27067|26981|2011-11-22 22:41:56|"hanermo" - CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|Freighters and esp. tankers use huge amounts of water ballast to load them, so they dont roll over. > Ben, > I agree that its not a completely valid experiment, only a simple, > easy to perform, physical experiment -- but, I dare say, more > informative than the "thought experiment" you proposed. The real data > that informs my position are the thousands of 6:1 tankers and > freighters, some with apparently top-heavy loads, plying the world's > oceans. The largest freighters are taking the rough-water routes > around Cape Horn and Cape of Good Hope, because they don't fit through > the Panama and Suez canals -- and some may even be too deep for the > Malacca Straits as well! Surely some of them, at some point, lose > power in a storm. Did they roll over when broadside to the waves? I > don't think so, unless hit by enormous breaking waves. Waves seldom > get all that steep except, as you mentioned, when shoaling or > intersecting. A 2x4 lying flat on the water appears to me to be much > more stable than those container ships. > > I understand that at least some of the super-waves that occasionally > occur in mid-ocean actually may happen above a seamount -- in other > words, shoaling water for a huge wave. > > When my wife and I bet each other we typically limit the bet to 1 > penny. I was really going out on a limb to offer 36 cents -- the total > value of what was in my pocket at the time! We've found that one penny > provides a sufficient ego-boost to the winner, and doesn't materially > add to the loser's pain of defeat. For what its worth, we've been > happily married for a number of decades :) > > I've now proposed a thought experiment (observing real-life ships) and > conducted a physical experiment (2x4 in pan of water), both of which > give credence to my opinion. I look forward to seeing the video of > your physical experiment. > > Best Regards, > John > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27068|26981|2011-11-23 01:25:02|Roy|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|I would imagine that ark would not be any good with containers stacked on its top ... it is so obvious! those container ships I have seen are crazy! high up on very narrow beams ... no way ... in fact I was shocked when I saw them the first time Those supertankers makes a lot more sense if you are looking for stability, and they ride very wide and low. dimensions seem to be similar to those tankers, excepting that it is a little taller the one I saw in that video, barely had anything over the waterline ... water just wash over it ... and with its length, it will just "swing" out of the way ... sort of deflecting the push of big swells and get out of way ... nothing like an average surface boat would, in the similar waves as this one ... I have been told that those navy subs are terrible uptop in rough waters ... I don't know much about them, except that they are big, for sure ... it seems that most of them are a lot taller than they are wide and very roundish in its shape at bottom ... seems that it is made to roll a lot! the one I am working on is about 30'(?) wide by 40'(?) long, and about 16' high the way it is now ... most of it is 10' high, excepting for a 6' by 40' hump in middle, on top and lengthwise ... it is just a very rough draft right now and I have not tested anything out yet ... don't know if this will be stable or rolls or whatever ... I will find out later on down the road --- On Mon, 11/21/11, jhess314 wrote: From: jhess314 Subject: [origamiboats] Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, November 21, 2011, 7:46 PM   CLASS LENGTH(m) BEAM(m) RATIO Coastal 205 29 7:1 Aframax 245 34 7:1 Suezmax 285 45 6:1 VLCC 330 55 6:1 ULCC 415 63 7:1 http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch5en/appl5en/tankers.html --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 08:40:24AM -0800, Roy wrote: > > > > an interesting note ... I read some place that they tested  a boat of > > the dimensions conforming to that of the biblical ark, to see how it would handle > > horrible storms, and found that it was relatively stable and did well > > ... maybe keep the dimensions somewhat close to those, proportionally > > ... but ... there is other boats (and those containers) that I need to > > think and worry about > > I've heard the complete opposite, and reviewing the figures supports > this second version: the Ark was supposed to be 450'L x 75'W x 45'H - > i.e., about a 6:1 length-to-beam ratio, which is much too narrow for > good roll stability, and (ships in those days typically sailing with > nothing but cargo for ballast) _way_ too tall for an unpowered barge. It > would roll right over in harbor chop, much less bad weather in the > ocean. > > Much like Brent's post here about the Indians in Canada laughing their > heads off about the "rained for 40 days and 40 nights and drowned the > world" story due to their _actual_ experience of it raining for 6 months > out of the year, this one doesn't stand up to inspection too well. :) > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27069|26981|2011-11-23 01:33:44|Roy|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|haha about sending it over on Gulf Stream ... I have thought about that myself .... too slow ... but true about no fuel needed ... what you said about rolling does make sense ... in that video, it didn't happen ... but I do see how that can happen will see if I can find it, to look at it again --- On Tue, 11/22/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 22, 2011, 8:45 AM   On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 01:22:41PM -0000, jhess314 wrote: > $100? Hmmm... I've got 36 cents in my pocket. (lol) I'll bet your > 2"x4"x3' board won't roll in the water unless you've got breaking > waves. Why not give it a shot, John? It would be a useful thing for you to learn about boats. Otherwise, the first time you get into serious weather might be the last time. Even with a properly-designed boat, you need to understand what a boat requires in order to survive. Without that understanding, you're not fit to be out on the sea. Here's a start on understanding what'll happen: that 2x4, if initially placed perpendicular to the waves, is in an unstable position in terms of rotation in the horizontal plane. As a result, the first couple of waves will turn it until it is parallel to the waves. Once that happens, its aspect ratio of 2 to 1 presents very little resistance to the rolling moment presented by the waves. Even the small but sharp chop produced by, say, reflection off a nearby rock or on top of a shoal would be enough to send it rolling. A powered vessel - whether sail- or engine-driven - can prevent that initial rotation, and thus usually avoid being rolled. Unpowered vessel, not a chance. Otherwise, people would be transporting stuff from the US to Europe by just stuffing it into floating boxes and launching it into the Gulf Stream - no fuel costs! :) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27070|26981|2011-11-23 01:44:51|Roy|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|"Usually, beamier boat has better initial stability, narrow boat has better ultimate stability." interesting ... then it explains what I saw, and explains what Ben is talking about with that 2 by 4 --- On Tue, 11/22/11, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 22, 2011, 3:16 PM   Breaking Waves A boat beam on to a breaking wave is in greatest danger of capsize. A breaking wave need only be the same height as the beam of the boat to roll it over. More intros about stability: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Origami_hulls_and_stability/1st_Read_Me/ P.S. Usually, beamier boat has better initial stability, narrow boat has better ultimate stability. Some formulas: http://www.sailingusa.info/formula.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27071|26981|2011-11-23 08:20:55|Matt Malone|Re: Containers on ships|Probably true, a container full of machine tools is not nearly as common as a container full of plastic crap in plastic bags filled with air, in cardboard boxes. And even if there were a container of machine tools, it would sink fast, and not be a problem, leaving all the floating ones. Matt --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gary.lucas@... > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:42:12 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers on ships > > I'd bet the full ones will stay afloat longer. Container doors are not > completely watertight so they will leak continuously until the container > sinks. An awful lot of what is shipped in containers is less dense than > water, and protected by the container, a full one will likely stay afloat > for quite a long time. > > Gary H. Lucas > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Stannard > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 8:43 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers on ships > > That's probably worse - the empty ones will stay afloat longer if they fall > over. > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > I have to believe on some of those higher stacked ships, the containers > > are empty, returning to China. There is such an over-supply of containers > > in my area that one can buy them reasonably cheaply. They make a good > > workshop / storage shed / tool lockup for a rural property -- with some > > extra guarding welded on near the locks. > > > > Matt > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > John Wrote: > > > > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ital_Florida_Collision.jpg > > > > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ship_Overkeel.jpg > > > > > > http://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20080316-ChinaShipping2-772168%20eric%20stone%20blog.jpg > > > > http://www.strangebusiness.com/images/content/14825.JPG > > > > http://exportlogisticsguide.com/images/capsize.jpg > > > > > > https://hrlibrary.wikispaces.com/file/view/container_ship.jpg/50590213/container_ship.jpg > > > > > > http://www.web-l.com/things-you-wont-see-on-cnn/fallen-containers-on-container-ship.jpg > > > > John > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > -- > Cheers > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27072|26981|2011-11-23 08:27:13|Matt Malone|Re: Containers on ships|I was not thinking so much of the containers being tippy, but, that the mass of them so high made the ship tippy. About the locking features, yes, very useful. I own a shipping container, coincidentally for a rural property and used the locking blocks to move it around. Shipping containers have to be going somewhere. People buy and keep only so many of them. One can stack only so many of them in yards all around cities. I have yet to see one in any condition in a scrap yard. Perhaps they go to Mexico by rail if not back to Asia. It would be interesting to know where they all go. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: dljones@... Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 22:35:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers on ships This is the second time I've heard this comment about containers being returned empty... They essentially do not ship containers back empty. It costs less to build a new container in Asia than it does to ship an empty container back from the USA. Of course, I'm not talking about the Refers, just the standard containers... Those high stacked containers are not likely empty. If you look at a container carefully, you will see in all eight corners a square block of metal with holes in it, top and sides for the top 4 and bottom and sides for the bottom four. There are special connectors that lock these all together. Those containers are like huge legos that all lock together. When they are put on the ship, they end up being almost a solid structure. Notice, several of those cargo ships hit ground, are in bad shape and the containers haven't moved... dj On Tue, 22 Nov 2011, Matt Malone wrote: > > > I have to believe on some of those higher stacked ships, the containers > are empty, returning to China. There is such an over-supply of containers > in my area that one can buy them reasonably cheaply. They make a good > workshop / storage shed / tool lockup for a rural property -- with some > extra guarding welded on near the locks. > > Matt > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > John Wrote: > > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ital_Florida_Collision.jpg > > http://www.ships-info.info/pictures/Ship_Overkeel.jpg > > http://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20080316-ChinaShipping2-772168%20eric%20stone%20blog.jpg > > http://www.strangebusiness.com/images/content/14825.JPG > > http://exportlogisticsguide.com/images/capsize.jpg > > https://hrlibrary.wikispaces.com/file/view/container_ship.jpg/50590213/container_ship.jpg > > http://www.web-l.com/things-you-wont-see-on-cnn/fallen-containers-on-container-ship.jpg > > > > John > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27073|26981|2011-11-23 23:52:57|David L. Jones|Re: Containers on ships|These ships are highly designed, each is loaded with sofisticated computer software that takes into consideration what each container weights, where it's going and when it will be loaded and unloaded. They are actually a huge problem here in the US. Go to the Port of New Jersy. There is an enormous "graveyard" of them. If you were to drive up the New Jersey Turnpike you can see them stacked up many high from the highway. There are thousands of them... dj On Wed, 23 Nov 2011, Matt Malone wrote: > > > I was not thinking so much of the containers being tippy, but, that the mass of > them so high made the ship tippy. About the locking features, yes, very useful. > I own a shipping container, coincidentally for a rural property and used the > locking blocks to move it around. > > Shipping containers have to be going somewhere. People buy and keep only so > many of them. One can stack only so many of them in yards all around cities. > I have yet to see one in any condition in a scrap yard. > > Perhaps they go to Mexico by rail if not back to Asia. It would be interesting > to know where they all go. > > Matt > | 27074|26981|2011-11-24 00:12:18|David L. Jones|Re: Containers on ships|Check out these coordinates in google maps. this is just one container graveyard. 40.726560, -74.126118 what you are seeing in this yard are all used empty containers, I don't remember how high they are stacked. Looking at the satellite image above, I think I'm seeing 7 high... dj| 27075|26981|2011-11-24 05:50:48|Wally Paine|Re: Containers on ships|Near St. |Petersburg, Russia we drove past thousands of them laid out in straight lines, most with a TV aerial, a vegetable patch and often washing on a line.  When I suggested to our guide that people must be living there she denied it vehemently and refused to discus the matter further.  ________________________________ From: David L. Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2011, 5:12 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers on ships   Check out these coordinates in google maps. this is just one container graveyard. 40.726560, -74.126118 what you are seeing in this yard are all used empty containers, I don't remember how high they are stacked. Looking at the satellite image above, I think I'm seeing 7 high... dj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27076|26981|2011-11-24 08:49:12|David L. Jones|Re: Containers on ships|They are used in several areas around the world for housing. There are a number of programs that base their construction on shipping containers. There are some really beautiful constructions made from them. One of my favorites was a container that was brought to some remote area of Canada on a lake as a summer cottage. The container was altered so one whole side opened up and you had lovely views of the lake from a whole side being open for viewing. When you closed it up for when not being there, that side just closed up and it was a very well sealed contained "house". Beautifully done! There are also programs that are taking these to developing regions of the world to make into housing. Pretty good way to use them, I think anyway... dj On Thu, 24 Nov 2011, Wally Paine wrote: > Near St. |Petersburg, Russia we drove past thousands of them laid out in > straight lines, most with a TV��aerial, a��vegetable��patch and often > washing on a line. ��When I suggested to our guide that people must be > living there she denied it��vehemently and refused to discus the matter > further.�� > > > > ________________________________ > From: David L. Jones > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2011, 5:12 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers on ships > > > �� > Check out these coordinates in google maps. this is just one container > graveyard. > > 40.726560, -74.126118 > > what you are seeing in this yard are all used empty containers, I don't > remember how high they are stacked. Looking at the satellite image above, > I think I'm seeing 7 high... > > dj > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27077|26981|2011-11-24 09:04:39|Roy|Re: Containers on ships|yes ... there are sites that has pictures of many of those containers as houses and even apartments ... many of them are awesome! here's some http://www.thedailygreen.com/green-homes/latest/shipping-container-homes-460309 http://www.mnn.com/your-home/remodeling-design/photos/8-eye-catching-shipping-container-homes/a-new-kind-of-living# http://weburbanist.com/2008/05/26/cargo-container-homes-and-offices/ in fact, my son and I are talking about doing that ourselves, to have them as cabins on our land up there in Northern Pa. --- On Thu, 11/24/11, David L. Jones wrote: From: David L. Jones Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers on ships To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Thursday, November 24, 2011, 8:49 AM They are used in several areas around the world for housing. There are a number of programs that base their construction on shipping containers. There are some really beautiful constructions made from them. One of my favorites was a container that was brought to some remote area of Canada on a lake as a summer cottage. The container was altered so one whole side opened up and you had lovely views of the lake from a whole side being open for viewing. When you closed it up for when not being there, that side just closed up and it was a very well sealed contained "house". Beautifully done! There are also programs that are taking these to developing regions of the world to make into housing. Pretty good way to use them, I think anyway... dj On Thu, 24 Nov 2011, Wally Paine wrote: > Near St. |Petersburg, Russia we drove past thousands of them laid out in > straight lines, most with a TV aerial, a vegetable patch and often > washing on a line.  When I suggested to our guide that people must be > living there she denied it vehemently and refused to discus the matter > further.  > > > > ________________________________ > From: David L. Jones > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2011, 5:12 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers on ships > > >   > Check out these coordinates in google maps. this is just one container > graveyard. > > 40.726560, -74.126118 > > what you are seeing in this yard are all used empty containers, I don't > remember how high they are stacked. Looking at the satellite image above, > I think I'm seeing 7 high... > > dj > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27078|26981|2011-11-24 09:23:49|David L. Jones|Re: Containers on ships|Roy, Great use for them! You can buy them for darned cheap and they are great "building" blocks LOL... My wife and I have also thought of using some for a similar reason. Very easy to throw together. If you are handy, you can do a lot of the work yourself and build a building for really cheap... And a really nice building! I threw together a design a while back taking four of them and making a rectangular shaped house with interior open patio. didn't get the chance to actually build it though, you know, life takes turns that you can't always predict... Thanks for the links. dj On Thu, 24 Nov 2011, Roy wrote: > yes ... there are sites that has pictures of many of those containers as > houses and even apartments ... many of them are awesome! here's some > > http://www.thedailygreen.com/green-homes/latest/shipping-container-homes-460309 > http://www.mnn.com/your-home/remodeling-design/photos/8-eye-catching-shipping-container-homes/a-new-kind-of-living# > http://weburbanist.com/2008/05/26/cargo-container-homes-and-offices/ > > in fact, my son and I are talking about doing that ourselves, to have > them as cabins on our land up there in Northern Pa. > | 27079|26981|2011-11-24 14:04:42|Roy|Re: Containers on ships|yeah about the turns in life ... a sad fact of life, but then they are challenges, too ... guess we have to roll with punches and move on ... --- On Thu, 11/24/11, David L. Jones wrote: From: David L. Jones Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers on ships To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, November 24, 2011, 9:24 AM   Roy, Great use for them! You can buy them for darned cheap and they are great "building" blocks LOL... My wife and I have also thought of using some for a similar reason. Very easy to throw together. If you are handy, you can do a lot of the work yourself and build a building for really cheap... And a really nice building! I threw together a design a while back taking four of them and making a rectangular shaped house with interior open patio. didn't get the chance to actually build it though, you know, life takes turns that you can't always predict... Thanks for the links. dj On Thu, 24 Nov 2011, Roy wrote: > yes ... there are sites that has pictures of many of those containers as > houses and even apartments ... many of them are awesome! here's some > > http://www.thedailygreen.com/green-homes/latest/shipping-container-homes-460309 > http://www.mnn.com/your-home/remodeling-design/photos/8-eye-catching-shipping-container-homes/a-new-kind-of-living# > http://weburbanist.com/2008/05/26/cargo-container-homes-and-offices/ > > in fact, my son and I are talking about doing that ourselves, to have > them as cabins on our land up there in Northern Pa. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27080|26981|2011-11-24 20:03:43|Norm Parmley|Re: Containers on ships|Some pictures of how not to load a container ship and one of what you can make out of the containers.     ________________________________ From: David L. Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 12:12 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers on ships   Check out these coordinates in google maps. this is just one container graveyard. 40.726560, -74.126118 what you are seeing in this yard are all used empty containers, I don't remember how high they are stacked. Looking at the satellite image above, I think I'm seeing 7 high... dj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27081|26676|2011-11-24 20:05:20|brentswain38|Re: keel fuel tank coating and rust cleaning|I'd epoxy tar the works. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Hi Brent, > > Do you think painting the half up of the keel fuel thank is good enough? > ( I am suggesting that the botom half will remain wet from the fuel) > > martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:58:49 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: keel fuel tank coating and rust cleaning > > > > > > > I once had a bare steel diesel tank. It corroded on the top which was not covered by diesel. One can't rely on the tank being full all the time. Some condensation can do the same to the bottom. Since then I have always coated my tanks with epoxy tar, no problems. > I put a long, tubular screen on the pickup, so if any epoxy comes loose, it will stay in the tank, and not get into any hoses. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > hello Brent, > > > > > > I am now straightening the sides of my full keel(probably had some ice who froze inside before I bought the boat) and will sandblast the inside wich I will use as a fuel tank. > > I presume it has to be very clean if fuel is to be stored in there? > > and does it has to be coated or left on bare metal? > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27082|26981|2011-11-24 20:12:41|brentswain38|Re: Containers on ships|Shipping empty containers back to China is an extremely small cost saving over just leaving them where they are. Maybe some countries could use them as aid for earthquake and natural disasters. Just pay the Chinese comapnies what they would have saved by shipping them home, then send them to where they are needed for homes etc. Had they been using them as buildings in Haiti, the hospitals and many of the govt buildings wouldn't have fallen down. Looking at the pictures of the Rena on the reef off Tauranga, it looks like had they used diagonal cables from corner to corner, on the stacks of containers, they would have lost a lot fewer of them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David L. Jones" wrote: > > Roy, > > Great use for them! You can buy them for darned cheap and they are great > "building" blocks LOL... > > My wife and I have also thought of using some for a similar reason. Very > easy to throw together. If you are handy, you can do a lot of the work > yourself and build a building for really cheap... And a really nice > building! > > I threw together a design a while back taking four of them and making a > rectangular shaped house with interior open patio. didn't get the chance > to actually build it though, you know, life takes turns that you can't > always predict... > > Thanks for the links. > > dj > > On Thu, 24 Nov 2011, Roy wrote: > > > yes ... there are sites that has pictures of many of those containers as > > houses and even apartments ... many of them are awesome! here's some > > > > http://www.thedailygreen.com/green-homes/latest/shipping-container-homes-460309 > > http://www.mnn.com/your-home/remodeling-design/photos/8-eye-catching-shipping-container-homes/a-new-kind-of-living# > > http://weburbanist.com/2008/05/26/cargo-container-homes-and-offices/ > > > > in fact, my son and I are talking about doing that ourselves, to have > > them as cabins on our land up there in Northern Pa. > > > | 27083|26981|2011-11-24 20:17:13|brentswain38|Re: Containers at sea|Drive a steel nail in a piece of wood. Now try drive a wooden nail in a piece of steel. Tie a knot in a piece of steel wire. Now try tie a knot in a piece of wood. Bend a piece of steel 180 degrees, back on itself, and pound it flat. Now try the same with a piece of wood. One breaks, the other doesn't. A wooden hull is the least likely of any boat building material to survive a collision with anything. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > The previous poster is confusing stiffness with strength. Pound for pound, good wood is about the same stiffness (rigidity) as steel, but is not as strong per weight, and not as tough per weight. What Brent is talking about, impact, is a combination of toughness and strength. In the end, remember, one splits and cuts wood reasonably easy with an axe. > > This is a good chart: > > http://www-materials.eng.cam.ac.uk/mpsite/interactive_charts/strength-toughness/NS6Chart.html > > > Matt > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 00:13:05 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My 36 is plated with 3/16th plate, which has the same tensile strength as 7 1/2 inch douglas fir. A 308 will shoot thru 23 inches of douglas fir, but barely make it thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate, as a comparison of the impact strength of the two materials. > > Steel has 40 times the strength to weight of wood. > > A mild steel weld has 100% the stength of the surrounding material , a copper fastening in wood has a tiny fraction the strength of the surrounding matertial. > > Mild steel will stretch 40% before fracturing , wood, a tiny fraction that before fracturing. > > Wood is the flimsiest and most trouble prone material ever used to build a boat out of. It's the last thing I would ever want to collide with anything at sea in, or even go to sea in, for that matter.. > > I have regularly, deliberately T boned log booms at hull speed, with zero risk of damage. Wood boaters are afraid to sail a night in BC waters for fear of hitting a single log, and quickly sinking. . > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > > > > > > I agree about the "plastic" boats ... but wood? > > > pound for pound, it is a lot stronger than steel ... if built right, wood should do very well > > > > > > --- On Wed, 11/16/11, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers at sea > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 3:15 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I heard recently on CBC Radio that the first debris from the japan earthquake, including steel fishboats is about to start hitting the BC coast. Differences in wndage is spreading the debris out over thousands of miles, and will continue to do so until it covers the entire North Pacific. Expect the number of plastic boats sinking from colisions with such debris to incrase drastically over the next few years. That should increase demand for, and appreciation of steel boats. > > > > > > Got a plastic or wood boat? Sell it and go metal! Beat the rush. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai@" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you forget about japans earthquake > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my ACS Android > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original message----- > > > > > > > From: Matt Malone > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 15:58:42 GMT+00:00 > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the number of sailboats that hit a container at sea will always be > > > > > > > low in comparison to the number of insured sailboats, so, the marginal > > > > > > > difference in a steel boat, spread over the probabilities, would result in a > > > > > > > tiny change in the cost of insurance vs. sinking and replacing an orgami. > > > > > > > I think what is probably of more concern to insurance companies with a > > > > > > > blue-water-capable boat is a collision where the sailboat puts a hole in > > > > > > > something fragile and really expensive and the expensive thing requires a > > > > > > > huge effort to save it from sinking, and huge effort to replace its > > > > > > > custom-carpentered wood interior, top of the line systems... And that is > > > > > > > before considering injuries and casualities. After all, any boat that can > > > > > > > hit a log at hull speed and have no problem at all is likely to make a real > > > > > > > impression on a big fibreglass coastal cruiser, and the target fibreglass > > > > > > > boat will absorb all the impact damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I remember reading an article where someone had built a beautiful steel > > > > > > > boat, and painted it with so much epoxy paint they said they had a > > > > > > > steel-cored epoxy boat. They also mentioned their fear of sinking another > > > > > > > boat as one of their major concerns when purchasing insurance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > From: chris.herrnberger@ > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:29:36 -0500 > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting point. What are the issues if any with steel boats and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > insurance in general.? FGRP boats in general are quite reasonable pending > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the policy options. New to the list so just wondering. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:35 AM, GP wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just perusing CruisersForum this morning. There were 2 posts about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sailboats hitting containers recently and sinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wonder if insurance companies will make some concession to steel boat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > construction? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27084|27007|2011-11-24 20:22:49|brentswain38|Re: Best Engine for BS 36|A Pathfiner is a VW engine. A cruising mechanic who uses one, said the 1600 is a far better engine than the 1500. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Pathfinder are here in Montreal, I send an e-mail about some modification on their engine (air filter)and I received an answer.(about 1 year ago) > but some people said they had some problems doing business with them. > the parts they are using are all from England or europe and are available but it can be expensive when bought separetely. > > Martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: daveddaved@... > Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:31:47 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Best Engine for BS 36 > > > > > > My boat (a ferro!) has what is called a Pathfinder. It's an older 1.5 or > 1.6 automotive diesel converted to marine. The bits and pieces were > produced by a Canadian company. There is not much info on the net and > Pathfinder wants you to pay for any info from what I can figure out. The > biggest bit is a Bowman heat exchanger -- possibly available from England. > Let me know if you would like additional info I have the printed manual and > parts views. > > I've also see that VW made marine engines recently. Again, check the 'net. > It seems they've merged or something with Cummins. > > On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 7:22 PM, David L. Jones wrote: > > > James, > > > > No worries, I also mis-quoted what the 1.6L has for horsepower, it's not > > 74 hp, it's either 59 hp for the non-turbo model and 68 hp for the turbo > > model. Both are nice engines and pretty much exactly what I'd like to put > > in my sail boat... Both are fully mechanical. 130,000 km is not much if it > > was maintained well for those miles. I have a friend of mine running one > > that has over 250,000 miles on it and the motor runs and sounds excellent. > > It has been well maintained for all those miles... > > > > You will have to modify it to run it in a boat. But if you are up to the > > task, I don't think you'll find a more efficient diesel. If you can sell > > it for the same price as what you have to pay for a diesel all set-up to > > drop in your boat, then that could be a good option... > > > > dj > > > > > > On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > Sorry my mistake, it is a 1.6 L from a 1985 Jetta with 130 000 km on it. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27085|26981|2011-11-25 09:35:44|scott|Re: Containers on ships|It is worth the extra money to purchase ones that are already isulate such as the refrigerator ones. I have a 48ft insulated 18 wheeler trailer that we use as a library. it has 350 sqft of floor space. In SC a 8000 btu window ac unit will keep it cool. the cost to insulate one adequately yourself is pretty high. Scott > in fact, my son and I are talking about doing that ourselves, to have them as cabins on our land up there in Northern Pa. > > --- On Thu, 11/24/11, David L. Jones wrote: > | 27086|26981|2011-11-25 13:37:28|Aaron|Re: Containers on ships|Scott Are you going to fold this container  into a boat?  Or just float away in it?    ________________________________ From: scott To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 5:35 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers on ships   It is worth the extra money to purchase ones that are already isulate such as the refrigerator ones. I have a 48ft insulated 18 wheeler trailer that we use as a library. it has 350 sqft of floor space. In SC a 8000 btu window ac unit will keep it cool. the cost to insulate one adequately yourself is pretty high. Scott > in fact, my son and I are talking about doing that ourselves, to have them as cabins on our land up there in Northern Pa. > > --- On Thu, 11/24/11, David L. Jones wrote: > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27087|26981|2011-11-25 14:06:24|Roy|Re: Containers on ships|haha ... thought about that myself ... even wondered if they would do a satisfactory job as a part of the boat itself at least ...  would they be strong and useful, worthy enough for serious consideration? thought about them in water straight up, but they are too boxy and "rough on sides for smooth transit in water using a lot more power ... but ... what about being a part of boat itself? It's cheap ... it crossed my mind --- On Fri, 11/25/11, Aaron wrote: From: Aaron Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Containers on ships To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Friday, November 25, 2011, 1:37 PM   Scott Are you going to fold this container  into a boat?  Or just float away in it?    ________________________________ From: scott To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 5:35 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers on ships   It is worth the extra money to purchase ones that are already isulate such as the refrigerator ones. I have a 48ft insulated 18 wheeler trailer that we use as a library. it has 350 sqft of floor space. In SC a 8000 btu window ac unit will keep it cool. the cost to insulate one adequately yourself is pretty high. Scott > in fact, my son and I are talking about doing that ourselves, to have them as cabins on our land up there in Northern Pa. > > --- On Thu, 11/24/11, David L. Jones wrote: > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27088|26981|2011-11-25 18:29:28|wild_explorer|Re: Containers on ships|It was some good discussion about possibility of such project ;) Some 3D concept's images may be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Origami_hulls_and_stability/65ft_boat_concept/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > > haha ... > thought about that myself ... even wondered if they would do a satisfactory job as a part of the boat itself at least ...  would they be strong and useful, worthy enough for serious consideration? > thought about them in water straight up, but they are too boxy and > "rough on sides for smooth transit in water using a lot more power ... > but ... what about being a part of boat itself? > It's cheap ... > it crossed my mind > > --- On Fri, 11/25/11, Aaron wrote: > > From: Aaron > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Containers on ships > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Date: Friday, November 25, 2011, 1:37 PM > > > > Scott > > Are you going to fold this container  into a boat?  Or just float away in it?  > > > > ________________________________ > > From: scott > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 5:35 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers on ships > > > > It is worth the extra money to purchase ones that are already isulate such as the refrigerator ones. > > > > I have a 48ft insulated 18 wheeler trailer that we use as a library. it has 350 sqft of floor space. In SC a 8000 btu window ac unit will keep it cool. > > > > the cost to insulate one adequately yourself is pretty high. > > > > Scott > | 27089|26981|2011-11-26 12:35:12|scott|Re: Containers on ships|lol.. non boat related container :) More a comment on using them as additional or primary living space. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Scott > Are you going to fold this container  into a boat?  Or just float away in it?  > >   > > ________________________________ > From: scott > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 5:35 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Containers on ships > > > >   > > It is worth the extra money to purchase ones that are already isulate such as the refrigerator ones. > > I have a 48ft insulated 18 wheeler trailer that we use as a library. it has 350 sqft of floor space. In SC a 8000 btu window ac unit will keep it cool. > > the cost to insulate one adequately yourself is pretty high. > > Scott > > > in fact, my son and I are talking about doing that ourselves, to have them as cabins on our land up there in Northern Pa. > > > > --- On Thu, 11/24/11, David L. Jones wrote: > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27090|26981|2011-11-27 18:19:22|Maxime Camirand|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|Just a clarification: - most ships have only one engine, plus electrical generators. There isn't a sea-engine and a harbor-engine, ever. - in severe storms, ships that lose propulsion power are placed in great danger - don't overestimate weather routing. It is of limited value. We get into storms, sometimes. - ballast is rarely carried when the ship is loaded with cargo, unless it is a light and voluminous cargo, such as a deck load. Container ships sometimes carry ballast and cargo at the same time. Bulkers, tankers, etc rarely carry ballast with a full load of cargo. Regards, Max PS: I am writing from a ship, length 740 feet, breadth 78 feet. That's nearly 9.5:1 On 22 November 2011 13:38, Ben Okopnik wrote: > ** > > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 05:41:29PM -0000, jhess314 wrote: > > > > The real data > > that informs my position are the thousands of 6:1 tankers and > > freighters, some with apparently top-heavy loads, plying the world's > > oceans. > > Again, we're talking about two completely different things: an unpowered > barge vs. a ship with a very high power factor. You've also skipped the > bit about ballast, which is a critically-precise requirement in > commercial vessels; e.g., Panamax vessels typically draw about 40', > which is a pretty serious amount of ballast. > > > > The largest freighters are taking the rough-water routes > > around Cape Horn and Cape of Good Hope, because they don't fit through > > the Panama and Suez canals -- and some may even be too deep for the > > Malacca Straits as well! Surely some of them, at some point, lose > > power in a storm. > > Why would you assume this? Basic logic says that a) their power systems > are designed to be exceptionally reliable, b) have on-board engineers to > maintain them, c) most likely have some kind of backup systems (i.e., a > "harbor engine" in addition to the "sea engine"), and d) are (due to the > weather routing) unlikely to end up in storm conditions anyway. For all > of these factors to cross would be extraordinary (which is the bet that > all these companies take in the first place, since those ships aren't > designed for maximum seaworthiness but for the greatest cargo-carrying > capacity.) > > The only account in which I've read of a ship like that in serious > weather was in "The Perfect Storm": as I recall, there was a Japanese > freighter with an American reporter on board that jammed its rudder. > When that happened, it was deemed unsafe for the crew and they were > taken off - the ship was abandoned. Why would they do that if being > unsteerable didn't instantly make into a totally unseaworthy tub? > > > > Did they roll over when broadside to the waves? I > > don't think so, unless hit by enormous breaking waves. Waves seldom > > get all that steep except, as you mentioned, when shoaling or > > intersecting. A 2x4 lying flat on the water appears to me to be much > > more stable than those container ships. > > Much more stable without ballast? Not possible, I'm afraid. > > > > When my wife and I bet each other we typically limit the bet to 1 > > penny. I was really going out on a limb to offer 36 cents -- the > > total value of what was in my pocket at the time! We've found that > > one penny provides a sufficient ego-boost to the winner, and doesn't > > materially add to the loser's pain of defeat. For what its worth, > > we've been happily married for a number of decades :) > > Well... OK, you've convinced me - I like your reasoning. But I'll expect > that penny promptly, darn it! :))) > > (Peripheral note for everyone: if you've got to send or receive money > within the US (soon to add Canada as well), Dwolla.com charges $0.25 for > a transaction of any size. No credit or debit cards involved; it's just > cash over the Internet. They've managed to impress me with their > business plan, model, and growth rate.) > > > > I've now proposed a thought experiment (observing real-life ships) and > > conducted a physical experiment (2x4 in pan of water), both of which > > give credence to my opinion. I look forward to seeing the video of > > your physical experiment. > > Neither one of the above is valid, as I believe I've explained - but > I'll give it a shot. It's a cold, gray, nasty day out today and I have a > bunch of work to do on board, so I'll be on the lookout for suitable > conditions in the next few days and see if I can post something. You > guys are going to make me into a YouTube fanatic yet. :) > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27091|26981|2011-11-27 21:47:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 06:19:01PM -0500, Maxime Camirand wrote: > Just a clarification: > - most ships have only one engine, plus electrical generators. There isn't > a sea-engine and a harbor-engine, ever. "Most" would have been a reasonable statement; "ever" - as ever - is wrong. When I encountered the Russian research vessel "Akademik Nikolaj Strakhov" in Bermuda, the captain (G.F. Krasnov) and I became fast friends, and he gave me and my girlfriend a tour of the vessel. Perhaps my gloss from Russian into English is inaccurate - there may be specific terms used for these - but the Strakhov does indeed have an in-harbor engine as well as a main engine. A good thing, too, since they had to tear down one of the main engine's cylinders just before getting into St. George's, and came in on the harbor engine alone. As I (dimly) recall, the main engine uses some sort of a steam-based system for output while the harbor engine is just a large diesel (something like 3500HP.) > - in severe storms, ships that lose propulsion power are placed in great > danger No disagreement there. > - don't overestimate weather routing. It is of limited value. We get into > storms, sometimes. In addition to the imprecision of weather routing - and it's not by any means a perfect science - there are also business decisions that can push a ship into making a sub-optimal passage. "When the Devil drives", etc. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27092|26981|2011-11-28 16:43:58|Maxime Camirand|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|On 27 November 2011 21:47, Ben Okopnik wrote: > ** > > "Most" would have been a reasonable statement; "ever" - as ever - is > wrong. > > When I encountered the Russian research vessel "Akademik Nikolaj > Strakhov" in Bermuda, the captain (G.F. Krasnov) and I became fast > friends, and he gave me and my girlfriend a tour of the vessel. Perhaps > my gloss from Russian into English is inaccurate - there may be specific > terms used for these - but the Strakhov does indeed have an in-harbor > engine as well as a main engine. A good thing, too, since they had to > tear down one of the main engine's cylinders just before getting into > St. George's, and came in on the harbor engine alone. As I (dimly) > recall, the main engine uses some sort of a steam-based system for > output while the harbor engine is just a large diesel (something like > 3500HP.) > > "Ever" is probably too strong a word, I agree. "Never in contemporary, normal commercial practice" is more accurate. Maybe it has been tried at some point or another. Regarding the Strakhov, though, I think you may have misunderstood (though I'm not sure). I looked it up because it sounded weird. As far as I can tell from the info I found online, including the general arrangement plans, the ship seems to have one diesel engine and 3 diesel generators, as well as auxiliary boilers. Besides, steam propulsion stopped making use of cylinder-based engines a long, long time ago. Only turbines are used now, as far as I know. The only thing I've ever heard about combined turbine + diesel engine propulsion is on certain warships, that will use a normal diesel engine for general use, and also carry a gas turbine for an extra speed boost in combat. By far, the most common form of propulsion is a single diesel engine, either slow-speed direct to the shaft, or medium-speed with a reduction gear. Some ships have two engines, and only specialized ships (such as cruise ships using diesel-electric drives) have more than 2 or 3 engines. A few ships still use steam turbines. They're either very old, or very large (like ULCCs), or LNG (liquified natural gas) carriers that burn their cargo boil-off as fuel. I've never heard of any of these having a backup diesel engine (or "harbor engine"), though someone may have experimented with the idea before. Anyway, none of this is very important or pertinent to the discussion. I was just trying to correct your theory that ships might have harbor-engines and sea-engines. Even that is immaterial. You are right when you say that propulsion is very important to the safety of ships in rough weather. At base, though, it isn't very productive to compare the length-to-beam ratios of ships with the stability of planks of wood or Arks. Stability, as you know, involves more than a length-to-beam ratio. Shape is important, weight distribution is important. The size of ships compared to the magnitude of waves encountered, even in a storm, aren't on the same scale as smaller craft. I would say that the greatest concern for ships in a storm isn't stability (less-stable ships usually behave better, actually), it's the strength limits of the steel hull, hull openings (hatch covers, vents, doors) and superstructure. I hope the foregoing is helpful. I don't mean to engage in he-said-I-said... Just trying to add something meaningful to the discussion, as a professional mariner. Regards, Maxime > > > - in severe storms, ships that lose propulsion power are placed in great > > danger > > No disagreement there. > > > > - don't overestimate weather routing. It is of limited value. We get into > > storms, sometimes. > > In addition to the imprecision of weather routing - and it's not by any > means a perfect science - there are also business decisions that can > push a ship into making a sub-optimal passage. "When the Devil drives", > etc. > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27093|27093|2011-11-28 19:48:11|GP|Better radio reception|North BC coast many areas the am/fm reception is not good if at all. I was wondering if anyone cruising these waters has some kind of a set up (aside from Sirius) that works. CBC is all I care about. As an aside... what is the cost and what do you need for a Sirius set up... thanks Gary| 27094|27093|2011-11-28 20:24:49|Mark Hamill|Re: Better radio reception|This is about a proposal for a CBC shortwave station to try and aleviate the lack of coverage in the North. http://cbc.am/cbc-src.htm I found the reference to this at this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBC_Radio_One see map at bottom right of the page. There is a shortwave world CBC service. http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=132372 Don't have a shortwave radio so have no experience--might be an alternative and the BBC also has. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27095|26981|2011-11-29 00:14:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oil Tanker Length to Beam ratio|On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 04:43:36PM -0500, Maxime Camirand wrote: > On 27 November 2011 21:47, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > "Most" would have been a reasonable statement; "ever" - as ever - is > > wrong. > > > "Ever" is probably too strong a word, I agree. "Never in contemporary, > normal commercial practice" is more accurate. Maybe it has been tried at > some point or another. > > Regarding the Strakhov, though, I think you may have misunderstood (though > I'm not sure). I have zero claim to any sort of expertise in large ships - the Strakhov is the only one I ever got to examine in such detail - so I certainly can't argue against your knowledge. I can only go by what Gennady told me - and the story of coming in on the "harbor engine" alone because the main one was down would be rather hard to misinterpret. I would not be in the least surprised (because I'm very familiar with the Russian ideas on engineering) if one of the generators was set up so that its power could be redirected to the main shaft as a backup - but I can't make any definite statements about it one way or the other. > I looked it up because it sounded weird. As far as I can > tell from the info I found online, including the general arrangement plans, > the ship seems to have one diesel engine and 3 diesel generators, as well > as auxiliary boilers. Besides, steam propulsion stopped making use of > cylinder-based engines a long, long time ago. Only turbines are used now, > as far as I know. Again, I can't claim any familiarity with the system - what I know about steam will fit in a small teacup :) - but I recall a large gadget in one of the corners next to the main engine that I was told was the "steam generator". I don't know if that tells you anything useful. > Anyway, none of this is very important or pertinent to the discussion. I > was just trying to correct your theory that ships might have harbor-engines > and sea-engines. Right-o; thanks for the correction. > Even that is immaterial. You are right when you say that > propulsion is very important to the safety of ships in rough weather. > > At base, though, it isn't very productive to compare the length-to-beam > ratios of ships with the stability of planks of wood or Arks. Stability, as > you know, involves more than a length-to-beam ratio. Shape is important, > weight distribution is important. The size of ships compared to the > magnitude of waves encountered, even in a storm, aren't on the same scale > as smaller craft. I would say that the greatest concern for ships in a > storm isn't stability (less-stable ships usually behave better, actually), > it's the strength limits of the steel hull, hull openings (hatch covers, > vents, doors) and superstructure. Sure - if a ship is going to take seas over it, those things become critical, and the larger it is, the stronger it must be. My broadest point, I suppose, was that while the Ark story may sound impressive to a layman, a mariner with any sort of experience at sea will either have to just take it on faith (i.e., refuse to apply his knowledge and experience to any aspect of it) or disbelieve it in every particular. (I mean, I don't care what kind of saint that guy was... *nobody* would be able to resist "accidentally" squashing that pair of mosquitoes!) > I hope the foregoing is helpful. I don't mean to engage in > he-said-I-said... Just trying to add something meaningful to the > discussion, as a professional mariner. I, for one, appreciate that. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27096|27093|2011-11-29 00:37:13|Matt Malone|Re: Better radio reception|CBC shortwave is good. The Grundig G3 or G5 is a good SSB (upper and lower) / Shortwave, AM, FM radio. Compact, portable, AA batteries, long battery life. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 17:24:57 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Better radio reception This is about a proposal for a CBC shortwave station to try and aleviate the lack of coverage in the North. http://cbc.am/cbc-src.htm I found the reference to this at this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBC_Radio_One see map at bottom right of the page. There is a shortwave world CBC service. http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=132372 Don't have a shortwave radio so have no experience--might be an alternative and the BBC also has. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27097|27093|2011-11-29 01:49:43|Roy|Re: radio|"shortwave" is as like a radio, for communications? (remember, I am deaf, so I am lost here ...) I often wonder ... how's satellite for communications? Maybe I can set up something with a computer? RTTY? seems all I have seen is using ears and voice ... my hearing is kaput! got no idea for underwater but have thought about sending up a buoy, as needed or whatever ... --- On Tue, 11/29/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Better radio reception To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 29, 2011, 12:37 AM CBC shortwave is good.  The Grundig G3 or G5 is a good SSB (upper and lower) / Shortwave, AM, FM radio.   Compact, portable, AA batteries, long battery life.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 17:24:57 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Better radio reception                         This is about a proposal for a CBC shortwave station to try and aleviate the lack of coverage in the North. http://cbc.am/cbc-src.htm I found the reference to this at this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBC_Radio_One%c2%a0 see map at bottom right of the page. There is a shortwave world CBC service. http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=132372 Don't have a shortwave radio so have no experience--might be an alternative and the BBC also has. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27098|26981|2011-11-29 04:13:09|Roy|Re: Submarines (was Containers at Sea)|that encounter with the fishing net is something I have not thought of ... will think about that one the losing of air when turned upside down ... how much more would cost to put in a valve down there and shutting it off when I am at whatever depth or things like that? can help in that case ... does not seem to be too much of trouble ... about the ballast ... there is something called scale effect ... learned that from my biology teacher who used it to explain why there will never be any giant insects they used to have in those cheap horror movies of the 50's ... as the circumference increases ... the area inside increases exponentially ... with those insects, when they get so big, their exoskeleton can't handle the demands of its insides, and they perish concerning subs ... we need a whole lot more ballast if we do have huge volume to displace ... a lot more for one 20' diameter (316 sq ft) than for two 10' diameters (157 sq ft), or even for three 10' diameters! (235.5') - (10' has 78.5 sq ft. each) That is why I wouldn't use a 20' diameter by 100' long ... I will most likely stay with shorter and smaller diameters, chosen and arranged wisely ... use a lot less ballast that way, along with other cost savings in so many ways ... concrete has weight ... less need for ballast too ... this is one reason I think about using it ... it had been used successfully in past ... down to 700' with a 16' diameter that is 7" thick imagine it will be a lot less concrete for smaller diameters, too ... another cost saving right there, too that is what is nice about concrete, and it is moldable but if I play it smart, sticking to smaller diameters, used wisely ... should have something nice with steel ... wouldn't need too much either. that convo about the Noah's Ark gave me a lot to think about ... may run a few experiments on various ways of setting those tubes up, to see what I can learn about the stability ... will talk about this aspect with that thread ... --- On Mon, 11/21/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: [origamiboats] Submarines (was Containers at Sea) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, November 21, 2011, 2:03 PM   >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >From: DeafMessianic@... >Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:09:52 -0800 >Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Containers at sea > >so ... out there in deep blue areas, hurricanes/storms are less of a problem than close in around landmasses ... >is that a good rule of thumb? how much less? no need for precision at this point ... just some thoughts for me >to flow with There are so many unquantifiables, it is impossible to say. I am not certain a small sub is all that safe. As far as I know, regular marine radio does not work when submerged. I doubt many people are looking down for your running lights. There might be places in the world where after they call you on their radio, and you do not answer, they assume you are up to no good (drugs) and start blasting you. There are all sorts of people who use the ocean, and some assume they own all the water under their keel, and for a good distance behind them. I would not for instance want to get caught in a trawler net. To them, you might seem by the pull on the net to be nothing more than a stupid whale -- no guarantee they willhaul you in fast. Even when they do, will your sub be right side up? Will it have lost all its air from its bouyancy tanks when it it was inverted ? Will the fisherman take great care in cutting their nets to get you free ? In the current economic climate, unless you can make it perfectly clear to them there are live humans inthat tin can (hard to do when you are hauled in inverted), they might just take expeditious means to remove their problem. There are already plenty of stories of small boats clipped or run down by ships that did not notice or "did not notice" a clearly lit ship on the surface. A sub by definition cannot have much of a profile above the water -- that volume of displaced water that profile has below the water has to be volume in one's flotation tanks to get it above the water. One can have more elevated components than just the anti-wave tube that goes down to the hatch, however, from a distance, anything a small sub can support above the water is going to look really small as compared to the rigging of a sailboat. If you are in a sub and some big freighter rides over you and chews you up, they most certainly did not notice you before it happened, and would be economically motivated and might be inclined to keep on going if they saw some fresh flotsam in their wake. Military submarines are much bigger, carry lots of communications equipment, have an entire organization to plan their routes, clearances, etc, and in the end,are armed, and part of the largest naval gang on the planet. They get more respect from big ships. I think you are also forgetting the mass of a sub. The mass of a sailboat is the same as a piece of water in the same shape as that part of the sailboat that is below the water line. My boat is 10 tons, and I cannot imagine living inside inthat part that is below the water line. A submarine is entirely below the water line. To have a sub the size of my boat, it would have to weigh maybe 60 tons. That is a lot of steel or ballast to get that to go under the water. I have toyed with the idea of a submarine, or submersible boat, but it always comes back to that -- the mass is huge for a small free volume. Lets dream ridiculously big for a second. Say I got ahold of some heavy steel industrial tankage, lets say 20 feet in diameter and 100 feet long, for the cost of hauling it away then what could I build.... If I were laid it on its side and filled about 9 feet deep with solid concrete, then it would be near neutral-bouyant. But that would cost about $60,000 just in concrete... and I would have a 900 ton vessel ! On the plus side,one could mount the engines to drive it right on the concrete surface.... Then there would be space for a 1,200 square foot apartment inside -- that draws 20 feet of water -- with no windows, yet. If one is going to build a 900 ton vessel, then how about a 200-250 foot surface yacht.... There would be room for a wedding, or a tennis court, or a swimming pool. And it probably will not draw 20 feet of water. With a boat that big, you would be your own island. You could probably buy a scrap freighter atless than scrap metal prices and start from there. Going a bit smaller, but looking for a 6 foot headroom on the center line, that isabout an 11-12 foot diameter tube, again assuming concrete. Looking for a 20 foot long living space, 30 foot with tankage etc, then you are looking at 100 tons. Going with lead ballast, and 6' headroom, that is still 45 tons with a smaller beam.. very cosy at about 8 feet in diameter on a 20 foot living space... Recreational cruising submarine -- not worth it. Build a small ROV instead if you want to explore under water and cruise widely. Matt >I am sure the waters such as down there below South America are something >I would want to avoid, as I have read of how rough it is, even down below ... >but ... the costs of using such as the Panama canal for a sub of under 100'? >anyone knows? > >I am mainly interested in two areas of travel ... one from Gulf and Great >Lakes/St. Lawrence River to Europe and the Mediterranean Sea ... and >other from Northwest, to such as Asia, Indonesia, and Mid East ... > >How's this idea ... buy cheap steel from China, assembling it in such as >Philippines/Asia where things are a lot cheaper, and use it from there? >Have lots of friends/contacts there and probably can set something up >along those lines ... > >Am in western Pa, with good access to rivers and the Great Lakes ... may be moving to Minnesota soon, with same sort of access ... this is what I am >dealing with [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27099|27099|2011-11-29 04:42:18|Denis Buggy|Re: Oil Tanker bens mystery harbour engine|DEAR MAXINE YOU ARE IN A STATE OF INNOCENCE LIKE THE POOR RUSSIAN CAPTAIN- WHO BECAME " FAST FRIENDS " WITH BEN -- THE CORE OF THE MATTER IS THE SPEED OF THE FRIENDSHIP WITH BEN -- THE RUSSIAN CAPTAIN HAD NO TIME TO SEND A E MAIL ON ANY SUBJECT UNDER THE SUN AND FIND OUT HOW FAST A FRIENDSHIP CAN BE WITH BEN . IT HAS BEEN CLOCKED AT 400 Mpbs . WE ALL KNOW THERE IS NOT A MYSTERY HARBOUR ENGINE BUT START PRAISING HIM FOR HIS TECHNIAL PROWESS IT IS THE ONLY HOPE YOU HAVE -- YOU ARE MOST WELCOME TO THE GROUP -Denis Buggy IRELAND > On 27 November 2011 21:47, Ben Okopnik wrote: > >> ** >> >> "Most" would have been a reasonable statement; "ever" - as ever - is >> wrong. >> >> When I encountered the Russian research vessel "Akademik Nikolaj >> Strakhov" in Bermuda, the captain (G.F. Krasnov) and I became fast >> friends, and he gave me and my girlfriend a tour of the vessel. Perhaps >> my gloss from Russian into English is inaccurate - there may be specific >> terms used for these - but the Strakhov does indeed have an in-harbor >> engine as well as a main engine. A good thing, too, since they had to >> tear down one of the main engine's cylinders just before getting into >> St. George's, and came in on the harbor engine alone. As I (dimly) >> recall, the main engine uses some sort of a steam-based system for >> output while the harbor engine is just a large diesel (something like >> 3500HP.) >> >> > "Ever" is probably too strong a word, I agree. "Never in contemporary, > normal commercial practice" is more accurate. Maybe it has been tried at > some point or another. > > Regarding the Strakhov, though, I think you may have misunderstood (though > I'm not sure). I looked it up because it sounded weird. As far as I can > tell from the info I found online, including the general arrangement > plans, > the ship seems to have one diesel engine and 3 diesel generators, as well > as auxiliary boilers. Besides, steam propulsion stopped making use of >> > Anyway, none of this is very important or pertinent to the discussion. I > was just trying to correct your theory that ships might have > harbor-engines >> | 27100|27093|2011-11-29 08:24:01|Matt Malone|Re: radio|Roy, Shortwave is also the same set of frequency bands for HAM amateur radio. Having a ham transceiver on a offshore cruising boat is considered by most to be standard equipment. It is a different band than marine radio. Marine radio does not have the range to reach land all the time. What we were talking about is a shortwave receiver to receive the public stations that are also broadcast on the shortwave radio bands. These stations broadcast on these bands because the equipment is way less expensive, and less power intensive, using SSB, but most importantly, the signals travel a very long distance around the earth, bouncing back and forth between the ionosphere and the surface, especially over water. There are all sorts of religious stations in the US that easily reach all of North America. I have read that a 100,000 Watt SSB short wave transmission station can be reliably heard anywhere in the world. AM and FM are two types of signal modulations that might be used at any frequency, however most people just associate them with the two different public frequency bands. On the shortwave frequencies, many public stations use AM, however, there is another signal modulation scheme, far more power-efficient called single side band, SSB. Most amateur transceiver sets use SSB because a few Watts of power is like 10 or 100 times more total signal power, and range than the same signal using AM modulation. So to receive world-wide radio stations on the shortwave bands, like Canadian Broadcasting (CBC) or British Broadcasting (BBC) one would need a shortwave receiver. I recommend getting one that also has the ability to receive SSB transmissions. Not all of them can. A short wave radio transceiver (HAM) is an entirely different ball of string, requiring a HAM radio licence. There are compact and energy efficient units the same size as a marine radio. There are ones that will interface to a radio modem, so that one can send and receive e-mail while at sea: google 'sailmail'. With other equipment one can receive weather maps. I am sorry to hear you are deaf. RTTY, yes, that can be done. However, I think you might find email easier to get equipment for. I do not know much about radio accessibility equipment. I have not looked into satellite communications on a boat, beyond an Iridium Satellite telephone for voice or modem for data/email etc. I have heard that is really expensive, like $50,000-$100,000 in data costs for 4-5 months, for an around the world racer. Shortwave is free to use, after buying the equipment and getting a licence. Receiving shortwave world radio stations is even cheaper. Even if you are deaf, you may have crew who could access simple, cheap world radio as a source of information and pass on anything important on to you. Deploying a buoy... from a submarine... and have the entire thing work reliably... I believe that will be expensive and complex or unreliable. Then there is a chance, probability actually, of getting some seaweed or floating line tangled on the cable... Why not just surface and keep the system as simple as possible ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: DeafMessianic@... Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:48:42 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: radio "shortwave" is as like a radio, for communications? (remember, I am deaf, so I am lost here ...) I often wonder ... how's satellite for communications? Maybe I can set up something with a computer? RTTY? seems all I have seen is using ears and voice ... my hearing is kaput! got no idea for underwater but have thought about sending up a buoy, as needed or whatever ... --- On Tue, 11/29/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Better radio reception To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 29, 2011, 12:37 AM CBC shortwave is good. The Grundig G3 or G5 is a good SSB (upper and lower) / Shortwave, AM, FM radio. Compact, portable, AA batteries, long battery life. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 17:24:57 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Better radio reception This is about a proposal for a CBC shortwave station to try and aleviate the lack of coverage in the North. http://cbc.am/cbc-src.htm I found the reference to this at this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBC_Radio_One see map at bottom right of the page. There is a shortwave world CBC service. http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=132372 Don't have a shortwave radio so have no experience--might be an alternative and the BBC also has. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27101|27093|2011-11-29 09:54:41|wild_explorer|Re: radio|Radio spectrum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_spectrum If you want reliable communication, it is better to get used/surplus "all bands" navy portable radio equipment (receiver/transmitter combo). More likely, it would be bigger than most people want on a boat, but safety first ;). Another good things to have are emergency automatic transmitter which sends your coordinates and crank-shaft radio/receiver (should be kept in a lifeboat as a part of emergency kit). Satellite communication, in most cases, is unusable on boat at all. Roy, you probably can hook up a laptop's microphone input to a radio receiver output and convert voice to text with voice recognition software. It might require some effort, but should work. Do not be excited about "Submarine communication" radio band - it requires special equipment and antennas. You will not be able to use it anyway without attracting military's/navy's attention ;))| 27102|27099|2011-11-29 10:06:27|wild_explorer|Re: Oil Tanker bens mystery harbour engine|As I know, Russian's research ships are made according to Russian Navy standards. These ships may be old, but may have "more than expected". Do not rely too much on ship's specifications ;)).| 27103|27093|2011-11-29 13:24:58|Roy|Re: radio|Radio spectrum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_spectrum ... am familiar with bands ... If you want reliable communication, it is better to get used/surplus "all bands" navy portable radio equipment (receiver/transmitter combo). More likely, it would be bigger than most people want on a boat, but safety first ;). Roy, you probably can hook up a laptop's microphone input to a radio receiver output and convert voice to text with voice recognition software. It might require some effort, but should work. That is what I am thinking about now ... Satellite communication, in most cases, is unusable on boat at all. That sucks! Was thinking of those satellite phones that are pretty common ... why is it not usable on boats? seems to work fine most everywhere else ... Do not be excited about "Submarine communication" radio band - it requires special equipment and antennas. You will not be able to use it anyway without attracting military's/navy's attention ;))Yes, I figured that much, haha ... what are the common ones used by small submariners, such as on those small research subs? I have seen them talk with their mother ships and as far as I know, there is no hardline in between ... Another good things to have are emergency automatic transmitter which sends your coordinates and crank-shaft radio/receiver (should be kept in a lifeboat as a part of emergency kit).Yes, planning on having those ...What about sonar or something like that? The ones they talk about a lot are for ones who can hear ... I was thinking about using those of the fishfinder type to "see" things around me, but am not too sure of their capabilities. What is the distance they can go, to detect things? Are they reasonably good and would they do the job OK?I am thinking to have acrylic dome where I can sit in, to look out when travelling, but I know there is conditions where visual depth is really short, such as when water is muddy for example ... I don't think I will be able to bear sitting in subs of such as navy's, where they do not see out at all. What about using CCTV with strategically placed cameras? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27104|27093|2011-11-29 14:06:46|Paul Wilson|Re: radio|Check out www.sailmail.com or winlink.org It is commonly used for text messaging over SSB (HF) frequencies. Winlink is much harder to use (in the Pacific) since there are fewer stations so most use sailmail. Sailmail and winlink have a bit of a learning curve. If you can, I would try to get someone to show you how it all works. HF email is very slow and data capped. You quite often will have to cue to get on to it since it gets crowded and will be propagation dependent. The pactor modems are expensive but once you have one, the service is cheap. A lot of people are now also using satellite communications. I have no experience of this but they commonly have a ocens email address. Prices are coming down and it is instantaneous without the propagation problems. www.ocens.com I think SPOT messaging now has a text interface. www.findmespot.com I have used a SPOT messenger on my last few trips. It is a brilliant and relatively cheap way to let those at home know you are safe and also can give emergency messages. Cheers, Paul| 27105|27093|2011-11-29 14:14:30|Paul Wilson|Re: radio|On 30/11/2011 3:54 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > If you want reliable communication, it is better to get used/surplus > "all bands" navy portable radio equipment (receiver/transmitter > combo). More likely, it would be bigger than most people want on a > boat, but safety first ;). > > Another good things to have are emergency automatic transmitter which > sends your coordinates and crank-shaft radio/receiver (should be kept > in a lifeboat as a part of emergency kit). > > Satellite communication, in most cases, is unusable on boat at all. A new Icom radio would be much much more reliable than used equipment. Emergency transmitters have come a long way. I have only seen hand cranked radios in museums. Buy a 406 EPIRB or SPOT messenger which has dedicated rescue services. Satellite communications work great so I am not sure where you are coming from..... Cheers, Paul| 27106|27093|2011-11-29 15:30:49|theboilerflue|Re: Better radio reception|Don't know about Sirius Gary but I download podcasts onto my ipod and listen to that, you can get those little ipod docking stereo things pretty damn cheap in clearence/surplusy kinda stores some of which take a 12v wall transformer so you can just plug it into the house bank. Then you can just listen to what ever you want and whenever, it weeds through all the garbage very nicely. Most of the podcasts are free, almost all CBC is available and free for download. Though the downside is you have to listen to old shows of course when out in the middle of nowhere for a while. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > North BC coast many areas the am/fm reception is not good if at all. I was wondering if anyone cruising these waters has some kind of a set up (aside from Sirius) that works. CBC is all I care about. > > As an aside... what is the cost and what do you need for a Sirius set up... > > thanks > Gary > | 27107|27093|2011-11-29 15:35:56|wild_explorer|Re: radio|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Satellite communication, in most cases, is unusable on boat at all. > >Satellite communications work great so I am > not sure where you are coming from..... > It looks like I am way behind on modern affordable marine satellite communication - I am still thinking about big dish which needs precise positioning on a satellite. Sorry for misinformation in that case ;(| 27108|27093|2011-11-29 15:56:11|Matt Malone|Re: radio|Wild, there are free satellites you can access (yes free) but as far as I know, that requires a medium sized dish and good pointing. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:35:54 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: radio --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Satellite communication, in most cases, is unusable on boat at all. > >Satellite communications work great so I am > not sure where you are coming from..... > It looks like I am way behind on modern affordable marine satellite communication - I am still thinking about big dish which needs precise positioning on a satellite. Sorry for misinformation in that case ;( [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27109|27099|2011-11-29 17:01:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oil Tanker bens mystery harbour engine|On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 03:06:26PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > As I know, Russian's research ships are made according to Russian Navy standards. These ships may be old, but may have "more than expected". Do not rely too much on ship's specifications ;)). [laugh] Excellent advice - especially if you understand that "Russian Navy standards" means "Vasya and Fedya traded the main engine for a case of vodka and then cobbled up something that works just as well out of a goat bucket and six rusty nails." A friend of mine used to drive the trucks that carried the SS-20 missile engines (the Russian nuke MIRVs). He told me that the nuke warheads had to be kept at 36 degrees C, and so his trucks had an extra "warming" diesel motor that they had to fire up whenever they hooked up the heads. The "interesting" part of that was that, in order to get that diesel started in the winter, they had to play a blowtorch (!!!) over it... the torch was actually clamped in right next to the engine, standard equipment. Kinda reminds me of the 5-kilo mallet by the driver's seat in the Russian T-72 tank that I documented while I was part of 204th OPFOR at Ft. Lewis: the crashbox transmission that they used would get stuck, and that was their answer to the problem... :) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27110|27099|2011-11-29 18:01:03|Denis Buggy|Re: Oil Tanker bens mystery harbour engine|BEN YOU HAVE SURPASSED YOURSELF -- AND THAT IS NO MEAN ACHIEVEMENT - I WILL NOT QUESTION THE GOAT BUCKET ENGINE DRIVING THE SHIP ACROSS THE HIGH ARTIC SEAS -- I WOULD NOT DARE QUESTION THE EFFICIENCY OR SHEER INGENUITY OF SUCH AN ARRANGEMENT -- HOWEVER IT IS THE ECONOMICS OF THE MATTER HAS MY POOR HEAD IN A SPIN -- WOULD YOUR COLLEAGUES VASYA AND FEDYA CONSIDER THAT AN ENGINE THAT WAS COMPOSED OF A GOAT BUCKET AND SIX RUSTY NAILS CAPABLE OF DRIVING A SHIP MUST SURELY BE WORTH MORE THAN A CASE OF VODKA -- I WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE YOUR FRIENDS SHORT-CHANGED TELL THEM I WILL GIVE THEM TWO CASES OF VODKA AND I WILL THROW IN A COUPLE OF GOATS AS WELL TO KEEP YOU ALL HAPPY AS I CAN TELL YOU WOULD NOT PART WITH THE GOAT BUCKET IF THE LOVE OF YOUR LIVES STILL NEEDED IT . ALL THE BEST Denis Buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik [laugh] Excellent advice - especially if you understand that "Russian Navy standards" means "Vasya and Fedya traded the main engine for a case of vodka and then cobbled up something that works just as well out of a goat bucket and six rusty nails." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27111|27093|2011-11-30 00:39:04|Roy|Re: radio|u are forgiven ... I am behind on a lot of things, too that is why I am asking questions here ... appreciate those information Paul ... at present ... my leanings are towards the Atlantic, rather than the Pacific (but that may change down the road) would those things of the Pacific do well in the climate of the Atlantic? --- On Tue, 11/29/11, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: radio To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 29, 2011, 3:35 PM   --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Satellite communication, in most cases, is unusable on boat at all. > >Satellite communications work great so I am > not sure where you are coming from..... > It looks like I am way behind on modern affordable marine satellite communication - I am still thinking about big dish which needs precise positioning on a satellite. Sorry for misinformation in that case ;( [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27112|27093|2011-11-30 01:01:32|Roy|Re: radio|thanks, Matt --- On Tue, 11/29/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: radio To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 29, 2011, 8:23 AM Roy, Shortwave is also the same set of frequency bands for HAM amateur radio.    Having a ham transceiver on a offshore cruising boat is considered by most to be standard equipment.   It is a different band than marine radio.  Marine radio does not have the range to reach land all the time. What we were talking about is a shortwave receiver to receive the public stations that are also broadcast on the shortwave radio bands.  These stations broadcast on these bands because the equipment is way less expensive, and less power intensive, using SSB, but most importantly, the signals travel a very long distance around the earth, bouncing back and forth between the ionosphere and the surface, especially over water.   There are all sorts of religious stations in the US that easily reach all of North America.  I have read that a 100,000 Watt SSB short wave transmission station can be reliably heard anywhere in the world.  AM and FM are two types of signal modulations that might be used at any frequency, however most people just associate them with the two different public frequency bands. On the shortwave frequencies, many public stations use AM, however, there is another signal modulation scheme, far more power-efficient called single side band, SSB.   Most amateur transceiver sets use SSB because a few Watts of power is like 10 or 100 times more total signal power, and range than the same signal using AM modulation.  So to receive world-wide radio stations on the shortwave bands, like Canadian Broadcasting (CBC) or British Broadcasting (BBC) one would need a shortwave receiver.   I recommend getting one that also has the ability to receive SSB transmissions.  Not all of them can.  A short wave radio transceiver (HAM) is an entirely different ball of string, requiring a HAM radio licence.   There are compact and energy efficient units the same size as a marine radio.  There are ones that will interface to a radio modem, so that one can send and receive e-mail while at sea: google 'sailmail'.  With other equipment one can receive weather maps.  I am sorry to hear you are deaf.  RTTY, yes, that can be done.  However, I think you might find email easier to get equipment for.  I do not know much about radio accessibility equipment.    I have not looked into satellite communications on a boat, beyond an Iridium Satellite telephone for voice or modem for data/email etc.   I have heard that is really expensive, like $50,000-$100,000 in data costs for 4-5 months, for an around the world racer.     Shortwave is free to use, after buying the equipment and getting a licence.   Receiving shortwave world radio stations is even cheaper. Even if you are deaf, you may have crew who could access simple, cheap world radio as a source of information and pass on anything important on to you. Deploying a buoy...  from a submarine... and have the entire thing work reliably... I believe that will be expensive and complex or unreliable.   Then there is a chance, probability actually, of getting some seaweed or floating line tangled on the cable...  Why not just surface and keep the system as simple as possible ?    Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: DeafMessianic@... Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:48:42 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re:  radio                         "shortwave" is as like a radio, for communications? (remember, I am deaf, so I am lost here ...) I often wonder ... how's satellite for communications? Maybe I can set up something with a computer? RTTY? seems all I have seen is using ears and voice ... my hearing is kaput! got no idea for underwater but have thought about sending up a buoy, as needed or whatever ... --- On Tue, 11/29/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Better radio reception To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 29, 2011, 12:37 AM CBC shortwave is good.  The Grundig G3 or G5 is a good SSB (upper and lower) / Shortwave, AM, FM radio.   Compact, portable, AA batteries, long battery life.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 17:24:57 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Better radio reception                         This is about a proposal for a CBC shortwave station to try and aleviate the lack of coverage in the North. http://cbc.am/cbc-src.htm I found the reference to this at this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBC_Radio_One%c2%a0 see map at bottom right of the page. There is a shortwave world CBC service. http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=132372 Don't have a shortwave radio so have no experience--might be an alternative and the BBC also has. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                                 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27113|27093|2011-11-30 01:47:36|Darren Bos|Re: Better radio reception|I also thought podcasts right away. A cheap 8gb player would keep you in shows all summer, you get to pick the shows and you can always add to your library and get the news anytime your somewhere with wifi. Darren At 12:30 PM 29/11/2011, you wrote: > > >Don't know about Sirius Gary but I download >podcasts onto my ipod and listen to that, you >can get those little ipod docking stereo things >pretty damn cheap in clearence/surplusy kinda >stores some of which take a 12v wall transformer >so you can just plug it into the house bank. >Then you can just listen to what ever you want >and whenever, it weeds through all the garbage >very nicely. Most of the podcasts are free, >almost all CBC is available and free for >download. Though the downside is you have to >listen to old shows of course when out in the middle of nowhere for a while. > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >"GP" wrote: > > > > North BC coast many areas the am/fm reception > is not good if at all. I was wondering if > anyone cruising these waters has some kind of a > set up (aside from Sirius) that works. CBC is all I care about. > > > > As an aside... what is the cost and what do you need for a Sirius set up... > > > > thanks > > Gary > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27114|27099|2011-11-30 02:22:15|"hanermo" - CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: Oil Tanker bens mystery harbour engine|Laugh ... Ben is right and reminds me of when I worked on russian- origin Mag21bis fighters in the finnish airforce. The engineering is comewhat crude and very reliable, relying on brute force and generous tolerances. This is an excellent approach if low noise and excessive consumption are not your concern. > On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 03:06:26PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > > As I know, Russian's research ships are made according to Russian > Navy standards. These ships may be old, but may have "more than > expected". Do not rely too much on ship's specifications ;)). > > [laugh] Excellent advice - especially if you understand that "Russian > Navy standards" means "Vasya and Fedya traded the main engine for a case > of vodka and then cobbled up something that works just as well out of a > goat bucket and six rusty nails." > > A friend of mine used to drive the trucks that carried the SS-20 missile > engines (the Russian nuke MIRVs). He told me that the nuke warheads had > to be kept at 36 degrees C, and so his trucks had an extra "warming" > diesel motor that they had to fire up whenever they hooked up the heads. > The "interesting" part of that was that, in order to get that diesel > started in the winter, they had to play a blowtorch (!!!) over it... the > torch was actually clamped in right next to the engine, standard > equipment. > > Kinda reminds me of the 5-kilo mallet by the driver's seat in the > Russian T-72 tank that I documented while I was part of 204th OPFOR at > Ft. Lewis: the crashbox transmission that they used would get stuck, and > that was their answer to the problem... :) > > Ben > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27115|27099|2011-11-30 03:25:52|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Oil Tanker bens mystery harbour engine|Isn't the international Spacelab ISS pretty dependent on the slightly outdated Russian Sojus rocket for its reliable performance, in opposition to everything else what those self-styled fancy "high-tec-nations" tried to develop for the last two decades in their Nasas, Esas, and other wanking-authorities? Seems to be a slightly more practical approach though, to have a mallet and two different sorts of wire together with pliers to get it looped in the original tool kit of a cast part, instead of this notorious double-backup Microsoft-bug-collection to feed in wishy-washy bangladeshmade chipmonsters with two sparse knobs for user communication. It might be low-tec or even seem stone-age, but giving birth is as well (who ever attended one will know what I mean) while it's still a pretty prosperous method, seven billion for an argument, so far. 0,02 ct Am 30.11.2011 um 08:22 schrieb hanermo - CNC 6-axis Designs: > Laugh ... > Ben is right and reminds me of when I worked on russian- origin Mag21bis > fighters in the finnish airforce. > > The engineering is comewhat crude and very reliable, relying on brute > force and generous tolerances. > This is an excellent approach if low noise and excessive consumption are > not your concern. > > > On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 03:06:26PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > > > As I know, Russian's research ships are made according to Russian > > Navy standards. These ships may be old, but may have "more than > > expected". Do not rely too much on ship's specifications ;)). > > > > [laugh] Excellent advice - especially if you understand that "Russian > > Navy standards" means "Vasya and Fedya traded the main engine for a case > > of vodka and then cobbled up something that works just as well out of a > > goat bucket and six rusty nails." > > > > A friend of mine used to drive the trucks that carried the SS-20 missile > > engines (the Russian nuke MIRVs). He told me that the nuke warheads had > > to be kept at 36 degrees C, and so his trucks had an extra "warming" > > diesel motor that they had to fire up whenever they hooked up the heads. > > The "interesting" part of that was that, in order to get that diesel > > started in the winter, they had to play a blowtorch (!!!) over it... the > > torch was actually clamped in right next to the engine, standard > > equipment. > > > > Kinda reminds me of the 5-kilo mallet by the driver's seat in the > > Russian T-72 tank that I documented while I was part of 204th OPFOR at > > Ft. Lewis: the crashbox transmission that they used would get stuck, and > > that was their answer to the problem... :) > > > > Ben > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27116|27099|2011-11-30 10:09:03|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oil Tanker bens mystery harbour engine|On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 08:22:15AM +0100, hanermo - CNC 6-axis Designs wrote: > Laugh ... > Ben is right and reminds me of when I worked on russian- origin Mag21bis > fighters in the finnish airforce. > > The engineering is comewhat crude and very reliable, relying on brute > force and generous tolerances. > This is an excellent approach if low noise and excessive consumption are > not your concern. I'm actually very happy to have had a lot of exposure to that engineering mindset at a young age - it gives me an additional "toolset" that engineers who were trained and brought up in situations where everything is easily available don't have. Sometimes, "cheap and crude" really _is_ the right answer, and people who don't know that are missing quite a lot. Some years ago - and I often cite this story to my students - I was hired to write a prototype for an accounting system; the company figured that it would take 2-3 years to develop the final product and wanted to get a feel for what it would be like in actual use. I took about 10 days to write the prototype, collected a fat check, and went on my merry way... and found out a couple of years later that they abandoned the plans for the system and were happily using the prototype to do all their accounting. "Cheap, mostly works, and can be easily modified" is a powerful argument - especially in business, where time is money. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27117|27099|2011-11-30 10:19:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oil Tanker bens mystery harbour engine|On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 09:25:46AM +0100, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > Isn't the international Spacelab ISS pretty dependent on the slightly outdated Russian Sojus rocket for its reliable performance, in opposition to everything else what those self-styled fancy "high-tec-nations" tried to develop for the last two decades in their Nasas, Esas, and other wanking-authorities? > > Seems to be a slightly more practical approach though, to have a mallet and two different sorts of wire together with pliers to get it looped in the original tool kit of a cast part, instead of this notorious double-backup Microsoft-bug-collection to feed in wishy-washy bangladeshmade chipmonsters with two sparse knobs for user communication. The old story about the US spending millions to create a pen that would write in space and the Russians just using a pencil isn't true - but it's certainly believable because it's so typical of the two mindsets. E.g., US engineers design all sorts of fancy gearing, shift plates, etc. to accomodate shifter handle movement; that T-72 tank I mentioned has a crudely-cast long steel bar (which makes it flexible) and a notched rack welded to the wall. Flex the bar out of one notch and into the next; if it jams, take down the mallet and whack it. Done. :) > It might be low-tec or even seem stone-age, but giving birth is as well (who ever attended one will know what I mean) while it's still a pretty prosperous method, seven billion for an argument, so far. I saw both of my children being born, and helped both times. Yeah - crude, bloody... and effective as hell. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27118|27093|2011-11-30 13:12:42|wild_explorer|Satellite phones (Re: radio)|I took a brief look on information about satellite phones... Looks like expensive alternative to radio communication. Very similar to cell phones, it just use satellites instead of land-based-towers. Operating frequencies of cell phones and satellite phones services are pretty close: http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/frequency.cfm Depending on a provider, it might be local or world-wide coverage. Marine equipment's versions are expensive. Equipment is provider-based (cannot be used for another provider?). Line maintenance fees are about $100-200/year. Phone Call fees from $2/minute and up. Does anybody has an experience of using hand-held satellite phone on a boat during storm/rain conditions? How reliable is the communication? What is "real usage" cost? Does it support "broadcast" for emergency calls (to reach boats around your location)?| 27119|27093|2011-11-30 13:33:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Satellite phones (Re: radio)|On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 06:12:40PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > > Does anybody has an experience of using hand-held satellite phone on a > boat during storm/rain conditions? How reliable is the communication? > What is "real usage" cost? Does it support "broadcast" for emergency > calls (to reach boats around your location)? I set one up on an Israeli sailboat a number of years ago. The costs were _very_ high - as I recall, the owner had to buy blocks of time, with the smallest block costing $500, and that was something like 100 minutes. I've never heard of a "broadcast" feature like that. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27120|27093|2011-11-30 14:57:29|Matt Malone|Re: Satellite phones (Re: radio)|To my knowledge, there is no broadcast feature, that is what marine radio is used for. While I never leave my cell phone at home, and would not with a satellite phone, I see them as far more useful for contacting people you know or have the time to research and look up -- like calling family, or a chandlery at a coming port of call. In an emergency, marine radio contacts people you do not know, locally. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:12:40 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Satellite phones (Re: radio) I took a brief look on information about satellite phones... Looks like expensive alternative to radio communication. Very similar to cell phones, it just use satellites instead of land-based-towers. Operating frequencies of cell phones and satellite phones services are pretty close: http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/frequency.cfm Depending on a provider, it might be local or world-wide coverage. Marine equipment's versions are expensive. Equipment is provider-based (cannot be used for another provider?). Line maintenance fees are about $100-200/year. Phone Call fees from $2/minute and up. Does anybody has an experience of using hand-held satellite phone on a boat during storm/rain conditions? How reliable is the communication? What is "real usage" cost? Does it support "broadcast" for emergency calls (to reach boats around your location)? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27121|27093|2011-11-30 15:20:39|Paul Wilson|Re: Satellite phones (Re: radio)|The costs for satellite communications keep changing.....we used Iridium phones on the helicopters I worked on and they were $15 US a minute about 6 yrs ago but as more and more sign on the costs keep coming down. According to the following link it is now down to $1 a minute on some of cheaper satellite systems. http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/WestAdvisorView?langId=-1&storeId=11151&catalogId=10001&page=High-Seas-Communication If I was on a budget, I would have HF radio receiver or tranceiver for getting the weather faxes and a Spot messenger. The messenger is an option to let family know I was OK when I am in the more remote islands which don't have any internet cafes. A 406 EPIRB would be for emergency. The Spot messenger doesn't work in the eastern Pacific from Tonga to Panama but works almost everywhere else. Oh, just saw this.....looks better than the Spot but a little pricier.... http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=10820&minisite=10020 I have a cheap pactor modem now and can get saildocs on sailmail or winlink but if I didn't I would seriously consider one of the newer sat comms rather than forking out more than $1000 for an overpriced Pactor III modem. Getting data via saildocs program is really useful and many yachts passage plan now using the grib files. Grib files are amazingly accurate for weather if you are looking for a 3 or 5 day forecast. I wouldn't feel comfortable without saildocs cruising in cyclone season in the islands since the local weather warnings can be unreliable. www.saildocs.com By the way, I never did any of this when I first went offshore. I just looked at the sky and barometer and then pulled away. It worked for me but I admit I got nailed more than once by bad weather. With all the tools available now, it makes things safer but I admit it takes quite awhile to learn how to use all this stuff. The good thing is once cruising, there are plenty of people willing to help you out so there is no need to know it all before you leave. Don't let not having any of this stop you from going. Cheers, Paul| 27122|27093|2011-11-30 15:52:56|Roy|Re: Satellite phones (Re: radio)|from all that went on ... it seems that even tho the satellite phone would do well, its cost is a deciding factor for me ... and it is out. Radio seems to be the best all around ... so I guess I will focus on that for now ... --- On Wed, 11/30/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Satellite phones (Re: radio) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 30, 2011, 2:57 PM To my knowledge, there is no broadcast feature, that is what marine radio is used for.   While I never leave my cell phone at home, and would not with a satellite phone, I see them as far more useful for contacting people you know or have the time to research and look up -- like calling family, or a chandlery at a coming port of call.   In an emergency, marine radio contacts people you do not know, locally. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:12:40 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Satellite phones (Re: radio)                         I took a brief look on information about satellite phones... Looks like expensive alternative to radio communication. Very similar to cell phones, it just use satellites instead of land-based-towers. Operating frequencies of cell phones and satellite phones services are pretty close: http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/frequency.cfm Depending on a provider, it might be local or world-wide coverage. Marine equipment's versions are expensive. Equipment is provider-based (cannot be used for another provider?). Line maintenance fees are about $100-200/year. Phone Call fees from $2/minute and up. Does anybody has an experience of using hand-held satellite phone on a boat during storm/rain conditions? How reliable is the communication? What is "real usage" cost? Does it support "broadcast" for emergency calls (to reach boats around your location)?                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27123|27093|2011-11-30 18:18:38|wild_explorer|Satellite phones (Re: radio)|This one looks like a good alternative to a cellphone in North America http://www.globalstar.com/en/index.php?cid=1250 Unlimited voice plan $20/month. Only one problem - it is promotional price + you buy phone. May be a reasonable alternative to a cellphone ;) Coverage maps for others satellite companies: http://www.globalcomsatphone.com/support2.html More information: http://www.globalcomsatphone.com/products.html It looks like only Iridium has true Worldwide coverage ;(| 27124|27124|2011-12-01 08:05:36|normanbywaite|off topic (sorry) - iphone app for yahoo groups?|Is there an iPhone app just for yahoo groups? When i open my groups in safari on the iPhone the text is too small and if i zoom in the text is way wider than the screen. I have to scroll side to side to read anything. I have a cool app called "Tapatalk" which gives really easy access to a couple of internet forums i frequent, but when i tell it to go get my yahoo groups it tells me i have to ask the moderator to authorize this action. There seem to be a million yahoo apps in the iTunes store for everything yahoo EXCEPT the groups. I notice on many posts here the signature line "sent from my iPhone" - which app are these folk using? On a boating note, Splash now has rust free and freshly painted decks, after all the repair welding (done by someone who knew what he was doing, i.e. not me), and new polycarbonate windows, and next is the haul out for more rust treatment and paint on the hull. Then in Jan, I'm ready for three weeks sailing on Tasmania's waters, just me and the dog - woo hoo!| 27125|27099|2011-12-01 15:57:37|"hanermo" - CNC 6-axis Designs|Re: Oil Tanker bens mystery harbour engine|Absolutely true 100%. > I'm actually very happy to have had a lot of exposure to that > engineering mindset at a young age - it gives me an additional "toolset" > that engineers who were trained and brought up in situations where > everything is easily available don't have. Sometimes, "cheap and crude" > really _is_ the right answer, and people who don't know that are missing > quite a lot. > Sometimes you need a cheap tool .. and sometimes you need the best tool. The difficulty is knowing which and when .. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27126|27093|2011-12-01 20:54:36|brentswain38|Re: Better radio reception|With FM, you are screwed any distance from transmitters. You can get CBC FM in Bella Bella and Ucluelet, but not any distance from them, only in the harbour. I once suggested to CBC that they put their FM transmiters on the mountain by Ucluelet, where the Coast Guard has their stuff, so it would be line of site for all Barclay Sound, and thus be useable over all Barclay Sound. They asked the coastguard for permission to do that , but were refused. Insulating your backstay, and using it for an AM antenna drastically improves reception. With my backstay as an antenna I once picked up a Vancouver commercial radio station, CKWX, from Bora Bora , loud and clear. On the north coast, I sometimes get Alberta stations better than southern BC stations. You an get CBC radio on shortwave on what I believe is around 6160. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > North BC coast many areas the am/fm reception is not good if at all. I was wondering if anyone cruising these waters has some kind of a set up (aside from Sirius) that works. CBC is all I care about. > > As an aside... what is the cost and what do you need for a Sirius set up... > > thanks > Gary > | 27127|27127|2011-12-01 21:46:20|brentswain38|Obsessive perfectionism|I have often seen builders lose the dream, by becoming obsessive perfectionists. While some insist on their boats being accurate to within a thousandths of an inch, commercially made boats are often three or more inches from symetrical. A couple of clients who formerly worked for C&C and other mass production boat builders, have told me that when they take the bulkhead patterns frorm one side of the hull and try use them on the opposite side ,they are often three inches out. A friend recently bought a popular, comercially built Sparkman and Stephens designed production glass boat. The tumble home on one cabin side is two inces more in a 12 inch rise, than on the opposite side. Welders often try to grossly inflate their importance, by telling you horror stories about what will happen if your welds are not 100% perfect. The fact is, weld failures on mild steel in boats under 60 feet are almost unheard of. It just doesn't happen, even with the worst of welds. I often work with someone who has never picked up a stinger in his life. I get them to weld the lugs on for pulling the hull together. After they have been used, I give them a sledge hammer and let them try to break their first time welds. After bending the lugs back and forth many times , sweat pouring off them, the lug breaks about a half inch above the weld, conclusively proving the weld stronger than the plate. For thousands of years , wooden boats have been held together with a copper fastening every six inces. How does the strength of a copper fastening every six inches compare to the average weld, 60,000 PSI. The single keel on my 36 is held on by 24 feet of 3/16th pale, plus two floors adding another 5 ft in floors and tank baffles, plus the web connecting it to the skeg, plus the skeg, over 18 times the cross sectional area and tensile strength for keel bolts called for in Nevins and Hereschoffes rules. So while all but the worst welds have more than 100% the strength of the surrounding metal, you would have to have less than 20 % strength to be as weak as most production boats, almost unheard of in any mild steel welding. And how many of their keels fall off? Each side of the twin keels has 1.08 million pounds of tensile strength , and their are four sides, holding a total of 5700 lbs of keel. Two 36 footers have been launched in the last 5 years with about $35 K in them. Others, who's owners bought all their materials new, spent many times that. A piece of scrounged plywood which has been around and exposed for a long time, with zero delam, is far more reliable than new plywood which has never been tested. Older BC fir plywood is all fir , newer stuff has only fir on the outside, the inner veneers being much cheaper and more rot prone wood. Thus salvaged plywood here is much better than new ( and far cheaper). One client, who was the roughest woodworker imaginable, was hired to put an interior in a boat. It was rough , but went together very quickly and cheaply. Then the owner hired a good finisher to do the trim, and the result was like fine woodworking, and got many compliments. Some worry and spend a lot of time and money on things which will never be seen again and don't mater much, then run out of money and patience by the time they get to things which do matter. I was just told of a guy who spent two years on wiring a new boat. None of the boats I have owned over the last 40 yerars has had any wiring when I first went cruising in them and for the first 17 years I never had any wiring in my boats. A more practical solution is to put a full length conduit along the hull- deck joint, foam it in, install some $5 kerosene lamps, go cruising, and over time, ad wiring as needed. I'm more inclined to run a positive and negative the full length of the boat, with one fuse at the battery end , and take all lights etc off that. I've seen some amazing spaghetti looking wiring on some boats, possibly there to justify more pay for the electrician and not much else. With so many experienced cruisers coming back saying "Keep it simple", it's amazing how litle effort is aimed in that direction , and how many bulilders, when given several choices, will take the most complex every time, on the naive assumption that making things more expensive and complex, constitutes doing a "Better job.". Despite all the advice to "Keep it simple" and the obvious advantages of doing so, boats have become needlessly complex and expensive, for the fun and profit of those selling us excuses for doing the exact opposite..| 27128|27127|2011-12-02 00:49:42|badpirate36|Re: wire/conduit|Brent, I enjoyed reading your post, I plan on keep'in it simple, but... You mentioned running the electrical wire thru conduit buried in the foam. Carl Anderson used this method on sv MOM, and was very happy with it. Is it dificult to add/remove wires later on? I plan to change my mind for the life of the boat /.o) Thanx Tom| 27129|27127|2011-12-02 01:30:04|Ben Okopnik|Re: wire/conduit|On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 05:49:40AM -0000, badpirate36 wrote: > > Brent, > I enjoyed reading your post, I plan on keep'in it simple, but... > > You mentioned running the electrical wire thru conduit buried in the > foam. Carl Anderson used this method on sv MOM, and was very happy > with it. Is it dificult to add/remove wires later on? I plan to change > my mind for the life of the boat /.o) There are, of course, pros and cons to doing it that way. Pro: Much lower cost/a lot less wiring - which means less stuff to troubleshoot in case of problems, and you're less likely to have a problem in the first place. Of course, you will have to use very heavy-gauge wire for the main pair to handle the voltage drop and the total draw. Con: If the main run ever shorts, you're *screwed*. You'll instantly lose the use of every single electrical item on board - there's no way to isolate the bad circuit. You may also cook your battery via the very effective (due to that heavy wire) short. In addition, shorts (as opposed to open circuits) are very difficult to find: no matter where you measure it, it's a short. You'll either need specialized tools, or you'll have to start cutting that main run into pieces - unless you get lucky and figure out where the short is by other means. Pro: dirt-simple hookup. Tap into the pair wherever you need, and presto - you've got juice. Con: I've never heard of a good, reliable way to tap into a large wire like that. Not a tap that'll stay uncorroded, anyway. As I see it, it's difficult but possible to do it right with this method. If I was doing it that way, I'd do the following: 1) Break the main run every X feet and insert small panels with screws. This would allow for easy, reliable taps and also make the main run slightly easier to troubleshoot in case of a short (you'd be able to break it at the panels.) 2) Use _very_ heavy wire for the main run, and make sure that it's got excellent insulation that's not likely to wear through. When I was at Hughes Aircraft, we used wire with Teflon insulation on it; the stuff was rather difficult to strip (we had to use electric strippers that melted the insulation), but there was no way that it would ever chafe through: it was slick as glass and very tough. I don't know that it's available in the gauges I'm thinking about, though (2, or 1, or maybe even 1/0 - depends on the overall length and the total current draw.) 3) Spray all electrical connections with a protective coating, and cover all the wire ends with heat-shrink tubing (Ancor makes a nice one, with silicone that melts and seals the wire as you heat it.) 4) Use a top-quality (read "expensive") breaker right at the battery (but after the bilge pump connections.) 5) Keep lots of flashlights with good batteries handy, just in case. :) Speaking of which - Home Depot is selling 1W Cree LED flashlights at $9.99 for a pair. I just got a pair to play with a week ago, and I'll be going back for more. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27130|27127|2011-12-02 08:05:57|Matt Malone|Re: wire/conduit|I agree. I like the panels, or at least junction boxes where I might decide later to put in a panel. I would rather invest in 5 pairs of wire, each wire thick enough to handle all my essential loads, and then use small fuses at the battery end just large enough to handle the actual load on the circuit. That way, fuses blow long before wires start getting warm -- no balls of melted insulation halfway down the conduit with all the wires shorted together. Then if some circuit goes iffy, I can transfer the connections to a good one and up its fuse. If I have a high current load a long way from the batteries, like an anchor windlass, or think one day I might, I would put in two conduits, one just for the windlass. I like oversized conduits. They are easier to pull through. Yes, I like the idea of putting in the conduits and then just going without wiring... well, nav lights please at least. Many times Brent has talked about if you leave one square inch of the hull not foamed, it becomes a dripping source of water from condensation. This conduit is the same thing -- moisture wants to get in at every opening. I would seal it, say with silicone at the conduit couplers, and couplings into junction boxes. Then it is just the openings like junction box faces, and the extreme ends of the conduit that are open and those I have access to. I would make sure the conduit has a defined slope, and drain points too. Maybe a T going down to the bilge... chances are there is a wire you want to run there anyway. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 01:30:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: wire/conduit On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 05:49:40AM -0000, badpirate36 wrote: > > Brent, > I enjoyed reading your post, I plan on keep'in it simple, but... > > You mentioned running the electrical wire thru conduit buried in the > foam. Carl Anderson used this method on sv MOM, and was very happy > with it. Is it dificult to add/remove wires later on? I plan to change > my mind for the life of the boat /.o) There are, of course, pros and cons to doing it that way. Pro: Much lower cost/a lot less wiring - which means less stuff to troubleshoot in case of problems, and you're less likely to have a problem in the first place. Of course, you will have to use very heavy-gauge wire for the main pair to handle the voltage drop and the total draw. Con: If the main run ever shorts, you're *screwed*. You'll instantly lose the use of every single electrical item on board - there's no way to isolate the bad circuit. You may also cook your battery via the very effective (due to that heavy wire) short. In addition, shorts (as opposed to open circuits) are very difficult to find: no matter where you measure it, it's a short. You'll either need specialized tools, or you'll have to start cutting that main run into pieces - unless you get lucky and figure out where the short is by other means. Pro: dirt-simple hookup. Tap into the pair wherever you need, and presto - you've got juice. Con: I've never heard of a good, reliable way to tap into a large wire like that. Not a tap that'll stay uncorroded, anyway. As I see it, it's difficult but possible to do it right with this method. If I was doing it that way, I'd do the following: 1) Break the main run every X feet and insert small panels with screws. This would allow for easy, reliable taps and also make the main run slightly easier to troubleshoot in case of a short (you'd be able to break it at the panels.) 2) Use _very_ heavy wire for the main run, and make sure that it's got excellent insulation that's not likely to wear through. When I was at Hughes Aircraft, we used wire with Teflon insulation on it; the stuff was rather difficult to strip (we had to use electric strippers that melted the insulation), but there was no way that it would ever chafe through: it was slick as glass and very tough. I don't know that it's available in the gauges I'm thinking about, though (2, or 1, or maybe even 1/0 - depends on the overall length and the total current draw.) 3) Spray all electrical connections with a protective coating, and cover all the wire ends with heat-shrink tubing (Ancor makes a nice one, with silicone that melts and seals the wire as you heat it.) 4) Use a top-quality (read "expensive") breaker right at the battery (but after the bilge pump connections.) 5) Keep lots of flashlights with good batteries handy, just in case. :) Speaking of which - Home Depot is selling 1W Cree LED flashlights at $9.99 for a pair. I just got a pair to play with a week ago, and I'll be going back for more. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27132|26545|2011-12-02 12:03:27|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|In our welding class, Welding Certification requires to use E7018 electrode during certification test. Because I was practicing with E6011 my welds does not look good when I tried E8018 (the lab run out of E7018). So I asked what is the reason to use 70K filler metal on 60K plate. It turned out that this is seismic requirement for bridges. As it was explained to me, the weld SHOULD NEVER brake before welded metal does. It allows metal/structure to absorb stress/bending. For the same reason it is need to avoid making "triangles" at the welded corners (join 3 plates/bars at the same point). It is need to offset it and weld/connect only 2 plates/bars at one point. It allows some flexibility between "joints". Example: if you making square frame with reinforcement bars, you do NOT connect reinforcement bar from corner to corner - you move one side of the reinforcement bar from corner to the side and make connection "side-to-corner" Sound like the same idea as for origami boats.... P.S. I tried 1/8 E8018 on thin plate (about 1/8-3/32) @ 120A. I had a hard time not to burn holes welding vertical up. It is probably need to use 3/32 rod to be able to weld the same plate with similar to 1/8 E6011 rod results.| 27133|26545|2011-12-02 12:11:48|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Finally, lab ran out of old E6011 rods and got a new ones. Different brand DOES make a difference.... New rods have different coating's color - easy to recognize. I used 90-95A DC on old ones, new require 80-85A DC to get the same weld. New ones easier to ignite and tolerate "drugging" on a plate. I took several new and old ones - big difference. But less than using another type of electrode ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Different brands of rods make a difference, I bought 5 50lbs boxes of inweld > 6011 cheap > wont make that mistake again it is crap compared to murex, With 6011 you > want to store it dry, if it gets wet or damp and you dry it in an oven it > will never be the same > Tom | 27134|27127|2011-12-02 19:54:39|mkriley48|Re: wire/conduit|do it the way the navy used to do it. one main bus down the port side and one done the starboard everything on the port side goes to the port bus and everything on the starboard side to that one. independent battery banks feeding each side that can be paralleled. everything redundant, a bilge pump on each bus lights on each side in each state room. running lights and nav gear off a isolated starting battery. all switches at point of use, do not run 50 miles of wire so you can switch off a light in the v berth from the companionway. max reliability for min cost. all wiring should be in sealed conduit put a box in every cabin for junctions try not to break the main wire just tap into it. cut the insulation off and use a copper strap around the wire bolted to a little bus bar for your connections. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I agree. I like the panels, or at least junction boxes where I might > decide later to put in a panel. I would rather invest in 5 pairs > of wire, each wire thick enough to handle all my essential loads, > and then use small fuses at the battery end just large enough to handle the > actual load on the circuit. That way, fuses blow long before wires start > getting warm -- no balls of melted insulation halfway down the conduit > with all the wires shorted together. Then if some circuit goes iffy, I can > transfer the connections to a good one and up its fuse. If I have a high > current load a long way from the batteries, like an anchor windlass, or think > one day I might, I would put in two conduits, one just for the windlass. > I like oversized conduits. They are easier to pull through. > > Yes, I like the idea of putting in the conduits and then just going without > wiring... well, nav lights please at least. > > Many times Brent has talked about if you leave one square inch of the > hull not foamed, it becomes a dripping source of water from > condensation. This conduit is the same thing -- moisture wants to > get in at every opening. I would seal it, say with silicone at the conduit > couplers, and couplings into junction boxes. Then it is just the openings > like junction box faces, and the extreme ends of the conduit that are > open and those I have access to. I would make sure the conduit has a > defined slope, and drain points too. Maybe a T going down to the > bilge... chances are there is a wire you want to run there anyway. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ben@... > Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 01:30:04 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: wire/conduit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 05:49:40AM -0000, badpirate36 wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > I enjoyed reading your post, I plan on keep'in it simple, but... > > > > > > You mentioned running the electrical wire thru conduit buried in the > > > foam. Carl Anderson used this method on sv MOM, and was very happy > > > with it. Is it dificult to add/remove wires later on? I plan to change > > > my mind for the life of the boat /.o) > > > > There are, of course, pros and cons to doing it that way. > > > > Pro: Much lower cost/a lot less wiring - which means less stuff to > > troubleshoot in case of problems, and you're less likely to have a > > problem in the first place. Of course, you will have to use very > > heavy-gauge wire for the main pair to handle the voltage drop and the > > total draw. > > > > Con: If the main run ever shorts, you're *screwed*. You'll instantly > > lose the use of every single electrical item on board - there's no way > > to isolate the bad circuit. You may also cook your battery via the very > > effective (due to that heavy wire) short. In addition, shorts (as > > opposed to open circuits) are very difficult to find: no matter where > > you measure it, it's a short. You'll either need specialized tools, or > > you'll have to start cutting that main run into pieces - unless you get > > lucky and figure out where the short is by other means. > > > > Pro: dirt-simple hookup. Tap into the pair wherever you need, and presto > > - you've got juice. > > > > Con: I've never heard of a good, reliable way to tap into a large wire > > like that. Not a tap that'll stay uncorroded, anyway. > > > > As I see it, it's difficult but possible to do it right with this > > method. If I was doing it that way, I'd do the following: > > > > 1) Break the main run every X feet and insert small panels with screws. > > This would allow for easy, reliable taps and also make the main run > > slightly easier to troubleshoot in case of a short (you'd be able to > > break it at the panels.) > > > > 2) Use _very_ heavy wire for the main run, and make sure that it's got > > excellent insulation that's not likely to wear through. When I was at > > Hughes Aircraft, we used wire with Teflon insulation on it; the stuff > > was rather difficult to strip (we had to use electric strippers that > > melted the insulation), but there was no way that it would ever chafe > > through: it was slick as glass and very tough. I don't know that it's > > available in the gauges I'm thinking about, though (2, or 1, or maybe > > even 1/0 - depends on the overall length and the total current draw.) > > > > 3) Spray all electrical connections with a protective coating, and cover > > all the wire ends with heat-shrink tubing (Ancor makes a nice one, with > > silicone that melts and seals the wire as you heat it.) > > > > 4) Use a top-quality (read "expensive") breaker right at the battery > > (but after the bilge pump connections.) > > > > 5) Keep lots of flashlights with good batteries handy, just in case. :) > > > > Speaking of which - Home Depot is selling 1W Cree LED flashlights at > > $9.99 for a pair. I just got a pair to play with a week ago, and I'll be > > going back for more. > > > > Ben > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27135|26545|2011-12-03 13:14:17|Aaron|Re: Basic welding questions|E8018 3/32 dia. should be run quite well at 90 amps and it will never look as smooth as E7018  1/8" dia would be at about 130 amps. My preference for each was 92 and 132 and that work in all positions for me. Pipe or structual steel. Thin plate is go faster, If you turn the heat down then one goes slower and gets more heat in the base metal (holes) but the electrode does not melt fast enough for fast travel. Aaron ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 8:03 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions   In our welding class, Welding Certification requires to use E7018 electrode during certification test. Because I was practicing with E6011 my welds does not look good when I tried E8018 (the lab run out of E7018). So I asked what is the reason to use 70K filler metal on 60K plate. It turned out that this is seismic requirement for bridges. As it was explained to me, the weld SHOULD NEVER brake before welded metal does. It allows metal/structure to absorb stress/bending. For the same reason it is need to avoid making "triangles" at the welded corners (join 3 plates/bars at the same point). It is need to offset it and weld/connect only 2 plates/bars at one point. It allows some flexibility between "joints". Example: if you making square frame with reinforcement bars, you do NOT connect reinforcement bar from corner to corner - you move one side of the reinforcement bar from corner to the side and make connection "side-to-corner" Sound like the same idea as for origami boats.... P.S. I tried 1/8 E8018 on thin plate (about 1/8-3/32) @ 120A. I had a hard time not to burn holes welding vertical up. It is probably need to use 3/32 rod to be able to weld the same plate with similar to 1/8 E6011 rod results. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27136|26545|2011-12-03 16:57:05|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Thanks Aaron, I will try... I have noticed that welding with higher (but optimal for chosen electrode brand/type/size) current's setting gives less distortion. From another side, it requires more precise hands' coordination and speed of travel. So, at this point, smaller electrode size (3/32 instead of 1/8) for E7018/8018 may be temporary solution, because it has similar to 1/8 E6011 current's settings (about 90-95A DC). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > E8018 3/32 dia. should be run quite well at 90 amps and it will never look as smooth as E7018  1/8" dia would be at about 130 amps. My preference for each was 92 and 132 and that work in all positions for me. Pipe or structual steel. Thin plate is go faster, If you turn the heat down then one goes slower and gets more heat in the base metal (holes) but the electrode does not melt fast enough for fast travel. > > > Aaron | 27137|26545|2011-12-03 17:36:39|mauro gonzaga|Re: Basic welding questions|Peculiar, it sounds strange the requirement of electrode stronger than the base metal. The weld will break in the HAZ (heat affected zone). Actually the welding qualification tests require: Transverse tensile tests (shall break outside weld and/or at a UTS not less than that of the base metal) and bend tests to verify ductility. Mauro ________________________________ From: Aaron To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions   E8018 3/32 dia. should be run quite well at 90 amps and it will never look as smooth as E7018  1/8" dia would be at about 130 amps. My preference for each was 92 and 132 and that work in all positions for me. Pipe or structual steel. Thin plate is go faster, If you turn the heat down then one goes slower and gets more heat in the base metal (holes) but the electrode does not melt fast enough for fast travel. Aaron ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 8:03 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions   In our welding class, Welding Certification requires to use E7018 electrode during certification test. Because I was practicing with E6011 my welds does not look good when I tried E8018 (the lab run out of E7018). So I asked what is the reason to use 70K filler metal on 60K plate. It turned out that this is seismic requirement for bridges. As it was explained to me, the weld SHOULD NEVER brake before welded metal does. It allows metal/structure to absorb stress/bending. For the same reason it is need to avoid making "triangles" at the welded corners (join 3 plates/bars at the same point). It is need to offset it and weld/connect only 2 plates/bars at one point. It allows some flexibility between "joints". Example: if you making square frame with reinforcement bars, you do NOT connect reinforcement bar from corner to corner - you move one side of the reinforcement bar from corner to the side and make connection "side-to-corner" Sound like the same idea as for origami boats.... P.S. I tried 1/8 E8018 on thin plate (about 1/8-3/32) @ 120A. I had a hard time not to burn holes welding vertical up. It is probably need to use 3/32 rod to be able to weld the same plate with similar to 1/8 E6011 rod results. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27138|26545|2011-12-03 22:34:38|M.J. Malone|Re: Basic welding questions|Wild, why no triangles? I can see many triangle corners in an orgami. I made many in my last two projects. What is the concern? Matt wild_explorer wrote: In our welding class, Welding Certification requires to use E7018 electrode during certification test. Because I was practicing with E6011 my welds does not look good when I tried E8018 (the lab run out of E7018). So I asked what is the reason to use 70K filler metal on 60K plate. It turned out that this is seismic requirement for bridges. As it was explained to me, the weld SHOULD NEVER brake before welded metal does. It allows metal/structure to absorb stress/bending. For the same reason it is need to avoid making "triangles" at the welded corners (join 3 plates/bars at the same point). It is need to offset it and weld/connect only 2 plates/bars at one point. It allows some flexibility between "joints". Example: if you making square frame with reinforcement bars, you do NOT connect reinforcement bar from corner to corner - you move one side of the reinforcement bar from corner to the side and make connection "side-to-corner" Sound like the same idea as for origami boats.... P.S. I tried 1/8 E8018 on thin plate (about 1/8-3/32) @ 120A. I had a hard time not to burn holes welding vertical up. It is probably need to use 3/32 rod to be able to weld the same plate with similar to 1/8 E6011 rod results. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27139|26545|2011-12-03 22:59:09|David Jones|Re: Basic welding questions|Mauro, A "certifed" weld will not break in the weld. What you are describing is standard for a certfied weld procedure and weld. Welding should not reduce the strength or ductility of the base material is essentially what it is saying.... Usually the the weld itself is stronger than the base metal, but that's not always the case. dj On Sat, 3 Dec 2011, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > Peculiar, it sounds strange the requirement of electrode stronger than the base metal. The weld will break in > the HAZ (heat affected zone). > Actually the welding qualification tests require: Transverse tensile tests (shall break outside weld and/or at a > UTS not less than that of the base metal) and bend tests to verify ductility. > Mauro > > ________________________________ > From: Aaron > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 7:14 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > E8018 3/32 dia. should be run quite well at 90 amps and it will never look as smooth as E7018  1/8" dia would be > at about 130 amps. My preference for each was 92 and 132 and that work in all positions for me. Pipe or > structual steel. Thin plate is go faster, If you turn the heat down then one goes slower and gets more heat in > the base metal (holes) but the electrode does not melt fast enough for fast travel. > > Aaron > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 8:03 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > In our welding class, Welding Certification requires to use E7018 electrode during certification test. Because I > was practicing with E6011 my welds does not look good when I tried E8018 (the lab run out of E7018). So I asked > what is the reason to use 70K filler metal on 60K plate. It turned out that this is seismic requirement for > bridges. > > As it was explained to me, the weld SHOULD NEVER brake before welded metal does. It allows metal/structure to > absorb stress/bending. For the same reason it is need to avoid making "triangles" at the welded corners (join 3 > plates/bars at the same point). It is need to offset it and weld/connect only 2 plates/bars at one point. It > allows some flexibility between "joints". Example: if you making square frame with reinforcement bars, you do > NOT connect reinforcement bar from corner to corner - you move one side of the reinforcement bar from corner to > the side and make connection "side-to-corner" > > Sound like the same idea as for origami boats.... > > P.S. I tried 1/8 E8018 on thin plate (about 1/8-3/32) @ 120A. I had a hard time not to burn holes welding > vertical up. It is probably need to use 3/32 rod to be able to weld the same plate with similar to 1/8 E6011 rod > results. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27140|26545|2011-12-04 14:17:09|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Yep, sound strange, but this is what I was told by our instructor when I asked if I can use E6011 for a test. It might be some "specific" requirement for bridges (may be bridges build from stronger metal)... The lab use bending test. I asked several people in our class and all of them use E7018 at work. I have no idea why... I am only one who use E6011 in the lab. That why it took a while to ran out of it ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Peculiar, it sounds strange the requirement of electrode stronger than the base metal. The weld will break in the HAZ (heat affected zone). > Actually the welding qualification tests require: Transverse tensile tests (shall break outside weld and/or at a UTS not less than that of the base metal) and bend tests to verify ductility. > Mauro | 27141|26545|2011-12-04 14:59:26|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Matt, I think, it is the same idea that Brent promote long time for Origami hull's construction. Structure should have some "flexibility" to absorb forces/impacts without damage. As I understand, there is a big difference what to define as "triangles". Small triangle plate used to reinforce corner/two-side-join of the square frame (for example) just reinforce welding area, but allow flexibility of the frame. As I see, "Triangles" in Origami, in most cases, are "desirable type" for hull's strength, but allow flexibility of the structure. May be structural engineers who knows latest seismic requirements for bridges could explain better what kind of triangles need to avoid. Preferably with pictures.... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > Wild, why no triangles? I can see many triangle corners in an orgami. I made many in my last two projects. What is the concern? > > Matt > > wild_explorer wrote: > > As it was explained to me, the weld SHOULD NEVER brake before welded metal does. It allows metal/structure to absorb stress/bending. For the same reason it is need to avoid making "triangles" at the welded corners (join 3 plates/bars at the same point). It is need to offset it and weld/connect only 2 plates/bars at one point. It allows some flexibility between "joints". | 27142|26545|2011-12-04 16:47:26|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|That what I found online: Quotes: Structural steel classification / Structual welding code - steel: Test plates - ASTM A36 steel, SMAW process using a group F4 electrode. Group. Electrode Classifications. F1. EXX22, EXX24, EXX27, EXX28. F2. EXX12, EXX13, EXX14. F3. EXX10, EXX11. F4. EXX15, EXX16, EXX18, EXX48 E7024 and E7028 fall into the F1 group, E6012 and E6013 fall into the F2 group, E6010 and E6011 fall into the F3 group, E7016 and E7018 fall into the F4 group. End of quotes. So, using E7018 is just certification test requirements ;)| 27143|27143|2011-12-04 17:49:40|Pierre|inside steering system|Hey guys, I would really appreciate if someone could send me a few pictures of the inside steering linkage, and also a picture of the linkage\stuffing box at the transom of the boat. Thanks guys Pierre| 27144|27144|2011-12-05 19:29:16|Kim|Sandblasting inside the keels?|Hi Brent ... I've now finished building the twin keels for my 26-footer. There's a couple of photo's of them (almost completed) here: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht The next step is to raise the whole boat about 18", cut the slots in the hull for the twin keels, and install them. Unlike in Canada, pre-blasted & primed steel isn't available down here. As you can see in the photos, all the steel for my boat, including the steel for the twin keels, still has mill scale attached (which is slowly rusting off). When all the welding in the boat is completely finished I'll then get everything sandblasted. I was going to put the lead ballast in the keels after the keels had been fully installed in the hull; but prior to the final sandblasting of the whole boat. I understand that the lead is then sealed by fully welding (to the keel sides) a steel plate on top of it. My question is: Do you recommend that the interior of the twin keels (where the lead ballast goes) be sandblasted and primed before melting the lead in place? It's certainly no trouble to get that done now (before installing the keels in the hull); but if doing so is completely unnecessary then I'd rather not waste the time and money. Many thanks Brent! Cheers ... Kim. ____________________________________| 27145|27144|2011-12-05 20:52:56|Matt Malone|Re: Sandblasting inside the keels?|I have said it before, but I am saying it again.... Kim that is one nice looking boat. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kimdxx@... Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 00:29:16 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside the keels? Hi Brent ... I've now finished building the twin keels for my 26-footer. There's a couple of photo's of them (almost completed) here: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht The next step is to raise the whole boat about 18", cut the slots in the hull for the twin keels, and install them. Unlike in Canada, pre-blasted & primed steel isn't available down here. As you can see in the photos, all the steel for my boat, including the steel for the twin keels, still has mill scale attached (which is slowly rusting off). When all the welding in the boat is completely finished I'll then get everything sandblasted. I was going to put the lead ballast in the keels after the keels had been fully installed in the hull; but prior to the final sandblasting of the whole boat. I understand that the lead is then sealed by fully welding (to the keel sides) a steel plate on top of it. My question is: Do you recommend that the interior of the twin keels (where the lead ballast goes) be sandblasted and primed before melting the lead in place? It's certainly no trouble to get that done now (before installing the keels in the hull); but if doing so is completely unnecessary then I'd rather not waste the time and money. Many thanks Brent! Cheers ... Kim. ____________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27146|27144|2011-12-05 23:18:13|Kim|Re: Sandblasting inside the keels?|Thanks Matt!! Hopefully it will look a lot nicer after blasting and painting! Cheers ... Kim. ____________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I have said it before, but I am saying it again.... Kim that is one nice looking boat. > > Matt > ____________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 00:29:16 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside the keels? > > Hi Brent ... > > I've now finished building the twin keels for my 26-footer. There's a couple of photo's of them (almost completed) here: > > http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > The next step is to raise the whole boat about 18", cut the slots in the hull for the twin keels, and install them. > > Unlike in Canada, pre-blasted & primed steel isn't available down here. As you can see in the photos, all the steel for my boat, including the steel for the twin keels, still has mill scale attached (which is slowly rusting off). When all the welding in the boat is completely finished I'll then get everything sandblasted. > > I was going to put the lead ballast in the keels after the keels had been fully installed in the hull; but prior to the final sandblasting of the whole boat. I understand that the lead is then sealed by fully welding (to the keel sides) a steel plate on top of it. > > My question is: Do you recommend that the interior of the twin keels (where the lead ballast goes) be sandblasted and primed before melting the lead in place? It's certainly no trouble to get that done now (before installing the keels in the hull); but if doing so is completely unnecessary then I'd rather not waste the time and money. > > Many thanks Brent! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > ____________________________________ | 27147|27144|2011-12-05 23:47:12|Roy|Re: Sandblasting inside the keels?|"My question is: Do you recommend that the interior of the twin keels (where the lead ballast goes) be sandblasted and primed before melting the lead in place?" do you mean by actually melting lead and pour it in the bare hull bottom? I have always thought of using lead bars or something like that ... and  ... the steel plate welded over it ... I like ... but wouldn't that compartment rust out later without our knowing it? use of Zinc or something like that? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27148|27144|2011-12-06 03:50:23|Kim|Re: Sandblasting inside the keels?|Hi Roy ... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > do you mean by actually melting lead and pour it in the bare hull > bottom? I have always thought of using lead bars or something > like that ... Yes, that's exactly the method recommended by Brent. Alternatively, lead ingots can be stacked in the keel cavity, and are melted in place by a Tiger Torch or something similar. I guess one advantage would be a lowering of the CG a bit. > and  ... the steel plate welded over it ... I like ... but > wouldn't that compartment rust out later without our knowing it? > use of Zinc or something like that? I don't know. I'm new to this! :-) Cheers ... Kim. _____________________________________________ | 27149|27144|2011-12-06 11:41:17|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside the keels?|Hi Kim, A keel that is airtight means no new air will enter and that means no rusting after the oxygen in the air is gone. I have opened such a keel after 30 years in use. Only som rust dust appeared. The steel was like new! So my take on this is - pour down your ballast and be sure the top plate is welded really airtight, and the forget about it! Nice pics by the way - and an impressive work You have put into this project. -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För Kim Skickat: den 6 december 2011 01:29 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside the keels? Hi Brent ... I've now finished building the twin keels for my 26-footer. There's a couple of photo's of them (almost completed) here: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht The next step is to raise the whole boat about 18", cut the slots in the hull for the twin keels, and install them. Unlike in Canada, pre-blasted & primed steel isn't available down here. As you can see in the photos, all the steel for my boat, including the steel for the twin keels, still has mill scale attached (which is slowly rusting off). When all the welding in the boat is completely finished I'll then get everything sandblasted. I was going to put the lead ballast in the keels after the keels had been fully installed in the hull; but prior to the final sandblasting of the whole boat. I understand that the lead is then sealed by fully welding (to the keel sides) a steel plate on top of it. My question is: Do you recommend that the interior of the twin keels (where the lead ballast goes) be sandblasted and primed before melting the lead in place? It's certainly no trouble to get that done now (before installing the keels in the hull); but if doing so is completely unnecessary then I'd rather not waste the time and money. Many thanks Brent! Cheers ... Kim. ____________________________________ ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links| 27150|27144|2011-12-06 21:06:39|Roy|Re: Sandblasting inside the keels?|interesting ... and yes, I'd imagine this would lower the CG a bit ... it is just something I would never have thought of ... good to learn something new --- On Tue, 12/6/11, Kim wrote: From: Kim Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside the keels? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 6, 2011, 3:50 AM   Hi Roy ... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > do you mean by actually melting lead and pour it in the bare hull > bottom? I have always thought of using lead bars or something > like that ... Yes, that's exactly the method recommended by Brent. Alternatively, lead ingots can be stacked in the keel cavity, and are melted in place by a Tiger Torch or something similar. I guess one advantage would be a lowering of the CG a bit. > and  ... the steel plate welded over it ... I like ... but > wouldn't that compartment rust out later without our knowing it? > use of Zinc or something like that? I don't know. I'm new to this! :-) Cheers ... Kim. _____________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27151|27144|2011-12-06 23:06:37|David Jones|Re: SV: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside the keels?|Lead is similar to zinc in that it protects steel galvanically. It was used in steel primer paints back before it was outlawed to be used in paints. Just and FYI... dj On Tue, 6 Dec 2011, Leif Thomsen wrote: > > > Hi Kim, > > A keel that is airtight means no new air will enter and that means no > rusting after the oxygen in the air is gone. I have opened such a keel after > 30 years in use. Only som rust dust appeared. The steel was like new! So my > take on this is - pour down your ballast and be sure the top plate is welded > really airtight, and the forget about it! > > Nice pics by the way - and an impressive work You have put into this > project. > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För > Kim > Skickat: den 6 december 2011 01:29 > Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Ämne: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside the keels? > > Hi Brent ... > > I've now finished building the twin keels for my 26-footer. There's a couple > of photo's of them (almost completed) here: > > http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > The next step is to raise the whole boat about 18", cut the slots in the > hull for the twin keels, and install them. > > Unlike in Canada, pre-blasted & primed steel isn't available down here. As > you can see in the photos, all the steel for my boat, including the steel > for the twin keels, still has mill scale attached (which is slowly rusting > off). When all the welding in the boat is completely finished I'll then get > everything sandblasted. > > I was going to put the lead ballast in the keels after the keels had been > fully installed in the hull; but prior to the final sandblasting of the > whole boat. I understand that the lead is then sealed by fully welding (to > the keel sides) a steel plate on top of it. > > My question is: Do you recommend that the interior of the twin keels (where > the lead ballast goes) be sandblasted and primed before melting the lead in > place? It's certainly no trouble to get that done now (before installing the > keels in the hull); but if doing so is completely unnecessary then I'd > rather not waste the time and money. > > Many thanks Brent! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > ____________________________________ > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27152|27144|2011-12-06 23:19:03|Roy|Re: SV: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside the keels?|interesting ... with autobody ... in old times when they use lead, they also include zinc ... and this was why I thought about it in this case, but you say it is not needed ... --- On Tue, 12/6/11, David Jones wrote: From: David Jones Subject: Re: SV: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside the keels? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 6, 2011, 6:49 PM   Lead is similar to zinc in that it protects steel galvanically. It was used in steel primer paints back before it was outlawed to be used in paints. Just and FYI... dj On Tue, 6 Dec 2011, Leif Thomsen wrote: > > > Hi Kim, > > A keel that is airtight means no new air will enter and that means no > rusting after the oxygen in the air is gone. I have opened such a keel after > 30 years in use. Only som rust dust appeared. The steel was like new! So my > take on this is - pour down your ballast and be sure the top plate is welded > really airtight, and the forget about it! > > Nice pics by the way - and an impressive work You have put into this > project. > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För > Kim > Skickat: den 6 december 2011 01:29 > Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Ämne: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside the keels? > > Hi Brent ... > > I've now finished building the twin keels for my 26-footer. There's a couple > of photo's of them (almost completed) here: > > http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > The next step is to raise the whole boat about 18", cut the slots in the > hull for the twin keels, and install them. > > Unlike in Canada, pre-blasted & primed steel isn't available down here. As > you can see in the photos, all the steel for my boat, including the steel > for the twin keels, still has mill scale attached (which is slowly rusting > off). When all the welding in the boat is completely finished I'll then get > everything sandblasted. > > I was going to put the lead ballast in the keels after the keels had been > fully installed in the hull; but prior to the final sandblasting of the > whole boat. I understand that the lead is then sealed by fully welding (to > the keel sides) a steel plate on top of it. > > My question is: Do you recommend that the interior of the twin keels (where > the lead ballast goes) be sandblasted and primed before melting the lead in > place? It's certainly no trouble to get that done now (before installing the > keels in the hull); but if doing so is completely unnecessary then I'd > rather not waste the time and money. > > Many thanks Brent! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > ____________________________________ > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27153|27144|2011-12-07 16:06:22|Maxime Camirand|Re: Sandblasting inside the keels?|I imagine melting the lead in place also makes the keel much stronger, in that it can't conceivably be dented by an impact. On 6 December 2011 21:03, Roy wrote: > ** > > > interesting ... and yes, I'd imagine this would lower the CG a bit ... > > it is just something I would never have thought of ... good to learn > something new > > --- On Tue, 12/6/11, Kim wrote: > > From: Kim > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside the keels? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, December 6, 2011, 3:50 AM > > > > > Hi Roy ... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > > > do you mean by actually melting lead and pour it in the bare hull > > > bottom? I have always thought of using lead bars or something > > > like that ... > > Yes, that's exactly the method recommended by Brent. Alternatively, lead > ingots can be stacked in the keel cavity, and are melted in place by a > Tiger Torch or something similar. I guess one advantage would be a lowering > of the CG a bit. > > > and ... the steel plate welded over it ... I like ... but > > > wouldn't that compartment rust out later without our knowing it? > > > use of Zinc or something like that? > > I don't know. I'm new to this! :-) > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > _____________________________________________ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27154|27144|2011-12-07 16:48:45|Roy|Re: Sandblasting inside the keels?|true ... not only that, it may dent, but it will be able to absorb a lot before real damage can happen ... lead is soft --- On Wed, 12/7/11, Maxime Camirand wrote: From: Maxime Camirand Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside the keels? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, December 7, 2011, 4:06 PM I imagine melting the lead in place also makes the keel much stronger, in that it can't conceivably be dented by an impact. On 6 December 2011 21:03, Roy wrote: > ** > > > interesting ... and yes, I'd imagine this would lower the CG a bit ... > > it is just something I would never have thought of ... good to learn > something new > > --- On Tue, 12/6/11, Kim wrote: > > From: Kim > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside the keels? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, December 6, 2011, 3:50 AM > > > > > Hi Roy ... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > > > do you mean by actually melting lead and pour it in the bare hull > > > bottom? I have always thought of using lead bars or something > > > like that ... > > Yes, that's exactly the method recommended by Brent. Alternatively, lead > ingots can be stacked in the keel cavity, and are melted in place by a > Tiger Torch or something similar. I guess one advantage would be a lowering > of the CG a bit. > > > and  ... the steel plate welded over it ... I like ... but > > > wouldn't that compartment rust out later without our knowing it? > > > use of Zinc or something like that? > > I don't know. I'm new to this! :-) > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > _____________________________________________ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27155|27127|2011-12-08 12:57:18|wild_explorer|Re: Obsessive perfectionism|I made 2 slightly different 3D models (same LWL, draft, beam). There is a difference in BWL (about 10%), BodyPlan's shape, displacement (about 3%). To make long story short: it has almost the same stability, boat balance, hull resistance and minor difference in ability to carry sails. It has slightly different (but very close) hull's pattern, same deck pattern. So... Even if someone cut slightly different pattern then on the plans (minor cutting mistakes) and fold it a little bit differently, it will not make much difference. The hull's, transom's and deck's patterns will dictate the shape of the boat. As long as you follow plan's recommendations - no problems. Personally, I would prefer CNC cut plates just because I am not good in cutting plates with torch or plasma-cutter at this time ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I have often seen builders lose the dream, by becoming obsessive perfectionists. While some insist on their boats being accurate to within a thousandths of an inch, commercially made boats are often three or more inches from symetrical. > | 27156|27127|2011-12-08 20:15:30|Mark Hamill|Re: Obsessive perfectionism|Wild--Just an observation but Brent has suggested many times cutting out all the "bits and pieces" first and assembling. If you would like to learn how to plasma cut perhaps that would be the way to go and then you would have the confidence for doing the halves--which from this idiots standpoint (me) actually doesn't look that bad at all--I think you'd be a pro at it in no time. The guy that cut my gears for the windlass had never done it before and it looks just fine. Nothing that cursing and screaming and hitting with things won't fix--but if it came to that I would be really surprised. Sincerely, MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27157|27144|2011-12-08 22:20:02|David Jones|Re: SV: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside the keels?|The old hot dipped lead coatings used zinc mixed with the lead, but that was more for coverage. Just hot dipped lead didn't get good complete coverage so zinc was added to help that issue. They used several other methods (homogenous lead coatings, sprayed coatings, electroplated coatings, probably more I can't think of) to lead coat for corrosion protection, some methods used pretty much pure lead, others had zinc and/or tin and sometimes small amounts of silver. The cavity that is being filled with lead will have a very large amount of lead w.r.t. the amount of steel so Kim shouldn't have much of a corrosion problem. On top of that, if the compartment is made air-tight, even less of an issue... dj On Tue, 6 Dec 2011, Roy wrote: > > > interesting ... with autobody ... in old times when they use lead, they also include zinc ... and this was why I > thought about it in this case, but you say it is not needed ... > > --- On Tue, 12/6/11, David Jones wrote: > > From: David Jones > Subject: Re: SV: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside the keels? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, December 6, 2011, 6:49 PM > > > > Lead is similar to zinc in that it protects steel galvanically. It was > > used in steel primer paints back before it was outlawed to be used in > > paints. > > Just and FYI... > > dj > > On Tue, 6 Dec 2011, Leif Thomsen wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Kim, > > > > > > A keel that is airtight means no new air will enter and that means no > > > rusting after the oxygen in the air is gone. I have opened such a keel after > > > 30 years in use. Only som rust dust appeared. The steel was like new! So my > > > take on this is - pour down your ballast and be sure the top plate is welded > > > really airtight, and the forget about it! > > > > > > Nice pics by the way - and an impressive work You have put into this > > > project. > > > > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > > > Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För > > > Kim > > > Skickat: den 6 december 2011 01:29 > > > Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Ämne: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside the keels? > > > > > > Hi Brent ... > > > > > > I've now finished building the twin keels for my 26-footer. There's a couple > > > of photo's of them (almost completed) here: > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > The next step is to raise the whole boat about 18", cut the slots in the > > > hull for the twin keels, and install them. > > > > > > Unlike in Canada, pre-blasted & primed steel isn't available down here. As > > > you can see in the photos, all the steel for my boat, including the steel > > > for the twin keels, still has mill scale attached (which is slowly rusting > > > off). When all the welding in the boat is completely finished I'll then get > > > everything sandblasted. > > > > > > I was going to put the lead ballast in the keels after the keels had been > > > fully installed in the hull; but prior to the final sandblasting of the > > > whole boat. I understand that the lead is then sealed by fully welding (to > > > the keel sides) a steel plate on top of it. > > > > > > My question is: Do you recommend that the interior of the twin keels (where > > > the lead ballast goes) be sandblasted and primed before melting the lead in > > > place? It's certainly no trouble to get that done now (before installing the > > > keels in the hull); but if doing so is completely unnecessary then I'd > > > rather not waste the time and money. > > > > > > Many thanks Brent! > > > > > > Cheers ... > > > > > > Kim. > > > ____________________________________ > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27158|27144|2011-12-08 22:28:07|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting inside the keels?|With a steel cap over the lead, welded airtight, there is no chance of air getting inside, and thus no chance of corrosion there, so sanblasting under the lead is pointless. Welding a nut in the cap and pouring a bit of oil inside, will seal any air out. Then you can put a bolt in the nut and weld it permanently shut. It would be easier to sandblast the inside of the keels, above the lead ,before installing them in the hull. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Brent ... > > I've now finished building the twin keels for my 26-footer. There's a couple of photo's of them (almost completed) here: > > http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > The next step is to raise the whole boat about 18", cut the slots in the hull for the twin keels, and install them. > > Unlike in Canada, pre-blasted & primed steel isn't available down here. As you can see in the photos, all the steel for my boat, including the steel for the twin keels, still has mill scale attached (which is slowly rusting off). When all the welding in the boat is completely finished I'll then get everything sandblasted. > > I was going to put the lead ballast in the keels after the keels had been fully installed in the hull; but prior to the final sandblasting of the whole boat. I understand that the lead is then sealed by fully welding (to the keel sides) a steel plate on top of it. > > My question is: Do you recommend that the interior of the twin keels (where the lead ballast goes) be sandblasted and primed before melting the lead in place? It's certainly no trouble to get that done now (before installing the keels in the hull); but if doing so is completely unnecessary then I'd rather not waste the time and money. > > Many thanks Brent! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > ____________________________________ > | 27159|27127|2011-12-08 22:29:49|brentswain38|Re: wire/conduit|It should be easy to run wires thru later, as long as you leave a messenger to pull thgen thru with, and make the condiut large enough. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > Brent, > I enjoyed reading your post, I plan on keep'in it simple, but... > > You mentioned running the electrical wire thru conduit buried in the foam. Carl Anderson used this method on sv MOM, and was very happy with it. Is it dificult to add/remove wires later on? I plan to change my mind for the life of the boat /.o) > > Thanx > Tom > | 27160|27127|2011-12-08 22:46:26|brentswain38|Re: wire/conduit|A good fuse a the battery end should eliminate any chance of problems of fires and wire fusing further along. You could use fuses at each of the fixtures along the main wire. Use at least #10 wire, and solder any conections along it, then coat the soldered connections with liquid electrical tape, for an airtight seal. If your conduit is big enough, it should be no problem pulling wires thru it later. SS boiler tubing should make good fire proof conduit, cheap in scrapyards. Electrically insulate it from your hull. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 05:49:40AM -0000, badpirate36 wrote: > > > > Brent, > > I enjoyed reading your post, I plan on keep'in it simple, but... > > > > You mentioned running the electrical wire thru conduit buried in the > > foam. Carl Anderson used this method on sv MOM, and was very happy > > with it. Is it dificult to add/remove wires later on? I plan to change > > my mind for the life of the boat /.o) > > There are, of course, pros and cons to doing it that way. > > Pro: Much lower cost/a lot less wiring - which means less stuff to > troubleshoot in case of problems, and you're less likely to have a > problem in the first place. Of course, you will have to use very > heavy-gauge wire for the main pair to handle the voltage drop and the > total draw. > > Con: If the main run ever shorts, you're *screwed*. You'll instantly > lose the use of every single electrical item on board - there's no way > to isolate the bad circuit. You may also cook your battery via the very > effective (due to that heavy wire) short. In addition, shorts (as > opposed to open circuits) are very difficult to find: no matter where > you measure it, it's a short. You'll either need specialized tools, or > you'll have to start cutting that main run into pieces - unless you get > lucky and figure out where the short is by other means. > > Pro: dirt-simple hookup. Tap into the pair wherever you need, and presto > - you've got juice. > > Con: I've never heard of a good, reliable way to tap into a large wire > like that. Not a tap that'll stay uncorroded, anyway. > > > As I see it, it's difficult but possible to do it right with this > method. If I was doing it that way, I'd do the following: > > 1) Break the main run every X feet and insert small panels with screws. > This would allow for easy, reliable taps and also make the main run > slightly easier to troubleshoot in case of a short (you'd be able to > break it at the panels.) > > 2) Use _very_ heavy wire for the main run, and make sure that it's got > excellent insulation that's not likely to wear through. When I was at > Hughes Aircraft, we used wire with Teflon insulation on it; the stuff > was rather difficult to strip (we had to use electric strippers that > melted the insulation), but there was no way that it would ever chafe > through: it was slick as glass and very tough. I don't know that it's > available in the gauges I'm thinking about, though (2, or 1, or maybe > even 1/0 - depends on the overall length and the total current draw.) > > 3) Spray all electrical connections with a protective coating, and cover > all the wire ends with heat-shrink tubing (Ancor makes a nice one, with > silicone that melts and seals the wire as you heat it.) > > 4) Use a top-quality (read "expensive") breaker right at the battery > (but after the bilge pump connections.) > > 5) Keep lots of flashlights with good batteries handy, just in case. :) > > Speaking of which - Home Depot is selling 1W Cree LED flashlights at > $9.99 for a pair. I just got a pair to play with a week ago, and I'll be > going back for more. > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > | 27161|27144|2011-12-08 23:08:24|Kim|Re: Sandblasting inside the keels?|Many thanks for your reply, Brent! I also like your suggestion to seal some oil in there with the lead too. Thanks also to Leif, David and Maxime for your input. All very much appreciated. Cheers ... Kim. ____________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With a steel cap over the lead, welded airtight, there is no chance of air getting inside, and thus no chance of corrosion there, so sanblasting under the lead is pointless. Welding a nut in the cap and pouring a bit of oil inside, will seal any air out. Then you can put a bolt in the nut and weld it permanently shut. It would be easier to sandblast the inside of the keels, above the lead ,before installing them in the hull. . > > ____________________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent ... > > > > I've now finished building the twin keels for my 26-footer. There's a couple of photo's of them (almost completed) here: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > The next step is to raise the whole boat about 18", cut the slots in the hull for the twin keels, and install them. > > > > Unlike in Canada, pre-blasted & primed steel isn't available down here. As you can see in the photos, all the steel for my boat, including the steel for the twin keels, still has mill scale attached (which is slowly rusting off). When all the welding in the boat is completely finished I'll then get everything sandblasted. > > > > I was going to put the lead ballast in the keels after the keels had been fully installed in the hull; but prior to the final sandblasting of the whole boat. I understand that the lead is then sealed by fully welding (to the keel sides) a steel plate on top of it. > > > > My question is: Do you recommend that the interior of the twin keels (where the lead ballast goes) be sandblasted and primed before melting the lead in place? It's certainly no trouble to get that done now (before installing the keels in the hull); but if doing so is completely unnecessary then I'd rather not waste the time and money. > > > > Many thanks Brent! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > ____________________________________ | 27162|27127|2011-12-09 12:42:58|wild_explorer|Re: Obsessive perfectionism|I found Brent's approach most effective. To cut and weld misc items for the boat not only will safe a time to build the boat later, but let you actually get an idea if you can build a boat by yourself even if someone (like me) NEVER did welding/cutting before. It is kind of try-out. If you like it - this project is for you. For several reasons I cannot make boat's parts at this time and I am wasting electrodes on X-plate. If I could, I would follow Brent's recommendations and make boat's parts from scrap metal. It really does not take much time to learn welding. You just need to read welding instructions' materials and practice. Take it slow - no rush... After about 50 hours of practice I can weld reasonably well in ALL positions on a plate ;) Probably, learning how to cut will not take much time as well... I mentioned CNC only because there are CNC tables in my area capable of cutting hull pattern's plates (halves). Some people in this group said before that they will rather invest in plasma cutter than to pay for CNC cutting. It all depends what the price is... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Wild--Just an observation but Brent has suggested many times cutting out all the "bits and pieces" first and assembling. If you would like to learn how to plasma cut perhaps that would be the way to go and then you would have the confidence for doing the halves--which from this idiots standpoint (me) actually doesn't look that bad at all--I think you'd be a pro at it in no time. | 27163|27163|2011-12-09 13:52:55|GP|Stuffing box...|Anyone using this stuff? GFO fiber dripless packing is a braided propeller and rudder shaft packing that you can install and forget about. After 15 years of successfully handling demanding industrial pump applications, it's now proving itself in the marine field, too. It's already being used by the US Navy and Coast Guard and many commercial work and fishing fleets. And, it's approved by the American Bureau of Shipping. thanks ..... Gary| 27164|27163|2011-12-10 03:18:01|mauro gonzaga|Re: Stuffing box...|Apparently there is graphite in it. Mind that graphite is at a higher level in the electrolysis rank than copper. In presence of sea water it generates an electric attack to your stainless steel shaft. I have experienced on valves for petrochemical industry: after hydrostatic test, they were not dried carefully. I could see severe pitting to the stem of the valves after one month time, approx. Use PTF impregnated braided, but forget zero dripping with stuffing box: a little leak is necessary to cool down the braided seal. Zero leaks can be obtained by mechanical seal, rather delicate, however. Mauro ________________________________ From: GP To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 9, 2011 7:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Stuffing box...   Anyone using this stuff? GFO fiber dripless packing is a braided propeller and rudder shaft packing that you can install and forget about. After 15 years of successfully handling demanding industrial pump applications, it's now proving itself in the marine field, too. It's already being used by the US Navy and Coast Guard and many commercial work and fishing fleets. And, it's approved by the American Bureau of Shipping. thanks ..... Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27165|27163|2011-12-10 05:25:06|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Stuffing box...|As a boatbuilder with some sort of experience on fancy upgrades I'd recommend a fair amount of scepticism. A well kept "traditional" stuffing box might give way to a (confined) amount of drip when in motion, sure. Greased flax appreciates a little cooling drip now and then, and so does the shaft. Dealing with the risks of dripless rubber-brass-seals, or with pitting caused by fancy "new" sorts of dry packings as mentioned, is another story. The notorious rubber-brass-nodripper will nearly sink Your fourty-footer well before the pudding while You're dining out, with only a small piece of plastic debris caught/drawn into the rubber dome while "parking" in a not-so-tidy public harbour ... it requires a certain amount of deadpan-humour, learning about "dripless" this way. Conservative maintenance would also lead You periodically to all those remote nookes inside Your hull You otherwise only might see again when rinsing out saltwater ... Replacing shafts pitted with "maintenance-free" churning or electrolysis on a regular base instead of simply greasing or even changing three turns of flax once in a while doesn't seem to be much of an innovation anyway, while it still could work well for a fleet completely financed by taxes, though. Am 09.12.2011 um 19:52 schrieb GP: > Anyone using this stuff? > > GFO fiber dripless packing is a braided propeller and rudder shaft packing that you can install and forget about. After 15 years of successfully handling demanding industrial pump applications, it's now proving itself in the marine field, too. It's already being used by the US Navy and Coast Guard and many commercial work and fishing fleets. And, it's approved by the American Bureau of Shipping. > > thanks ..... > Gary > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27166|27163|2011-12-10 13:11:19|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stuffing box...|On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:25:01AM +0100, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > The notorious rubber-brass-nodripper will nearly sink Your fourty-footer well before the pudding while You're dining out, with only a small piece of plastic debris caught/drawn into the rubber dome while "parking" in a not-so-tidy public harbour ... it requires a certain amount of deadpan-humour, learning about "dripless" this way. Having been shipmates with the PSS shaft seal for nearly 20 years at this point, on two different boats, I can report from personal experience that I've never seen the slightest amount of pitting on the stainless shaft near the graphite "doughnut" of one. I also can't imagine anything getting "drawn into" a shaft seal, since that plastic debris would somehow have to make its way past the tiny flutes in the shaft log (???) - and that would have to happen despite there being zero water flow into that seal. In fact, I recall a bit of water pouring out of the shaft tube when I last pulled the shaft despite the boat having sat on land for most of a week, which argues for that area between the shaft seal and the PSS being almost water-tight. (And no, it wasn't bilge water; steel boats tend to have dry bilges. Another benefit. :) If someone managed to make a bunch of microscopic, self-powered, shaft-seal-seeking pieces of plastic, I suppose it would be possible... but for the moment, I'm a big fan of having had almost 20 years in which I've never had to pack, repack, adjust the drip rate, or lie in contorted positions to do any of the above on a regular basis. Those who prefer other approaches are welcome to them; I've found what works for me. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27167|27163|2011-12-10 15:45:57|mauro gonzaga|Re: Stuffing box...| I insist Ben, no graphite in contact with metal in sea water. Probably until the shaft keeps turning electrolysis might not happen, I presume this is true, but when the boat is left moored for one or two months, yes, it will happen. mauro ________________________________ From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing box...   On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:25:01AM +0100, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > The notorious rubber-brass-nodripper will nearly sink Your fourty-footer well before the pudding while You're dining out, with only a small piece of plastic debris caught/drawn into the rubber dome while "parking" in a not-so-tidy public harbour ... it requires a certain amount of deadpan-humour, learning about "dripless" this way. Having been shipmates with the PSS shaft seal for nearly 20 years at this point, on two different boats, I can report from personal experience that I've never seen the slightest amount of pitting on the stainless shaft near the graphite "doughnut" of one. I also can't imagine anything getting "drawn into" a shaft seal, since that plastic debris would somehow have to make its way past the tiny flutes in the shaft log (???) - and that would have to happen despite there being zero water flow into that seal. In fact, I recall a bit of water pouring out of the shaft tube when I last pulled the shaft despite the boat having sat on land for most of a week, which argues for that area between the shaft seal and the PSS being almost water-tight. (And no, it wasn't bilge water; steel boats tend to have dry bilges. Another benefit. :) If someone managed to make a bunch of microscopic, self-powered, shaft-seal-seeking pieces of plastic, I suppose it would be possible... but for the moment, I'm a big fan of having had almost 20 years in which I've never had to pack, repack, adjust the drip rate, or lie in contorted positions to do any of the above on a regular basis. Those who prefer other approaches are welcome to them; I've found what works for me. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27168|27163|2011-12-10 16:01:16|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stuffing box...|On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 12:45:55PM -0800, mauro gonzaga wrote: > stainless shaft near the graphite "doughnut" of one.> > > I insist Ben, no graphite in contact with metal in sea water. It's interesting that at least two large companies that have been around for years disagree with you - and have made a commercial success of their belief (and practice.) Is it possible that there's some factor you haven't taken into account? Their product demonstrably works, in thousands of boats and for many years. Given that, can it actually be as bad as you say? > Probably until the shaft keeps turning electrolysis might not happen, I presume this is true, but when the boat is left moored for one or two months, yes, it will happen. My cruising has sometimes consisted of longish passages followed by very long stays; e.g., "Ulysses" sat in St. Augustine harbor for several years without moving, and without turning her prop even once for as long as several months. When I pulled the shaft a few years after that and examined it for cracks, etc., I didn't see any corrosion or deterioration. Maybe my theory about the lack of water flow implies stagnant (i.e., low-oxygen) water in that area? I don't know - I'm guessing here. What I do know is what I've seen: no visible deterioration ~10 years after I installed the PSS on "Ulysses". Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27169|27169|2011-12-10 16:33:45|Don & Karina|FW: Sandblasting inside the keels?|-----Original Message----- From: Don & Karina [mailto:donrina@...] Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 10:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Sandblasting inside the keels? I leaded some bodywork last year. I don't like the plastic fillers they shrink over time. In case anyone is considering having the lead stick to the steel I used this procedure. To get the lead to stick really well to the steel you first fluxed, then tinned the steel with 60/40 solder then went ahead and heated the lead on. I used a rag soaked in hot water to remove any left over flux. When tinning, I just used some steel wool as a "rag" when heating the tinning solder on, just heat and rub around. Use a fan to get rid of fumes . Lead fumes are toxic. Perhaps tinning the inside of the keels and then pouring lead would give a great bond? Never tried it but if I was building I would give it some thought. Don| 27170|27170|2011-12-10 18:08:12|badpirate36|Up the creek without a paddle|I'm look'in for a little insight on river travel, specificaly the Fraser river in Vancouver. I'm look'in into some moorage near New Westminister. Anybody know the rivers current?, what about spring run off? I have heard the river mouth is treacherous, what conditions contribute to this? Any information would be appreciated, I've never been up the creek without a paddle. Thanx Tom Casault| 27171|27171|2011-12-10 19:38:14|GP|Music lovers...|Nothing like some music while on the hook in a quiet anchorage. Lately I am increasingly aware of speaker hum. I have Logi Tech speakers consisting of a woofer and 2 smaller speakers plugged into my notebook computer by a single jack. The computer is plugged into an inverter. If the music is loud the hum is tolerable but not at lower volumes. Is there a fix for this? thanks.. Gary| 27172|27163|2011-12-10 20:03:09|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Stuffing box...|Ben, The graphite seal on your PSS unit is mounted on rubber, so electrically isolated from the shaft. In the pumping world, where I work, stuffing boxes with packing are all but gone. A John Crane #21 mechanical seal is used almost universally. We order Silicon Carbide on Silicon Carbide where abrasives might be a problem. I was talking to an engineer at John Crane at the WEFTEC water show last year, and he showed me the Silicon Carbide on Diamond, and Diamond on Diamond #21 seals now available! Gary H. Lucas From: Ben Okopnik Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 4:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing box... On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 12:45:55PM -0800, mauro gonzaga wrote: > stainless shaft near the graphite "doughnut" of one.> > > I insist Ben, no graphite in contact with metal in sea water. It's interesting that at least two large companies that have been around for years disagree with you - and have made a commercial success of their belief (and practice.) Is it possible that there's some factor you haven't taken into account? Their product demonstrably works, in thousands of boats and for many years. Given that, can it actually be as bad as you say? > Probably until the shaft keeps turning electrolysis might not happen, I presume this is true, but when the boat is left moored for one or two months, yes, it will happen. My cruising has sometimes consisted of longish passages followed by very long stays; e.g., "Ulysses" sat in St. Augustine harbor for several years without moving, and without turning her prop even once for as long as several months. When I pulled the shaft a few years after that and examined it for cracks, etc., I didn't see any corrosion or deterioration. Maybe my theory about the lack of water flow implies stagnant (i.e., low-oxygen) water in that area? I don't know - I'm guessing here. What I do know is what I've seen: no visible deterioration ~10 years after I installed the PSS on "Ulysses". Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27173|27171|2011-12-10 20:08:29|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Music lovers...|Gary, Just out of the ABYC Marine Electrical certification class yesterday where we discussed this issue. The noise is coming from your inverter most likely. Either it doesn't have a real clean sine wave (usually the more expensive a unit is, the better the sine wave form will be) or your inverter is getting old and the hum is an indication of its impending doom. Jay Adept Marine From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of GP Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 7:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Music lovers... Nothing like some music while on the hook in a quiet anchorage. Lately I am increasingly aware of speaker hum. I have Logi Tech speakers consisting of a woofer and 2 smaller speakers plugged into my notebook computer by a single jack. The computer is plugged into an inverter. If the music is loud the hum is tolerable but not at lower volumes. Is there a fix for this? thanks.. Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27174|27171|2011-12-10 20:22:26|Darren Bos|Re: Music lovers...|The noise could be an inverter, but it could also be other things. I have one laptop that causes this hum if only the speakers are attached to the laptop, however if you plug in an projector into the monitor port then all is well. I've also had some speakers that hum while others do not. The only way to find the problem is to test the individual parts independently. Trying shore power would be an good start to checking on the inverter. Darren At 05:08 PM 10/12/2011, you wrote: > > >Gary, > >Just out of the ABYC Marine Electrical certification class yesterday where >we discussed this issue. The noise is coming from your inverter most >likely. Either it doesn't have a real clean sine wave (usually the more >expensive a unit is, the better the sine wave form will be) or your inverter >is getting old and the hum is an indication of its impending doom. > >Jay > >Adept Marine > >From: >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >[mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On >Behalf Of GP >Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 7:38 PM >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Music lovers... > >Nothing like some music while on the hook in a quiet anchorage. Lately I am >increasingly aware of speaker hum. I have Logi Tech speakers consisting of a >woofer and 2 smaller speakers plugged into my notebook computer by a single >jack. The computer is plugged into an inverter. If the music is loud the hum >is tolerable but not at lower volumes. Is there a fix for this? > >thanks.. >Gary > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27175|27170|2011-12-10 20:58:07|Mark Hamill|Re: Up the creek without a paddle|Fraser River--used to go my mooring at Riversbend marina just up from Shelter Island at all times of the year. 36 foot Wharram catamaran with 10 hp Honda. usually took about 2 to 3 hours. Spring freshette once took 8 hours but the river was really moving and the river was cold and clear the whole time. Depending on where you are when you go home you can take the North Channel which I used to do if coming from Howe Sound and then turn down to the marina. Going up near Steveston some people would anchor at the mouth until the tide changed. The mouth of the Fraser is closed once and awhile although I never had that experience. Once I sailed all the way home from Saturna Island right up the river which was one of my best days sailing. MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: badpirate36 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 3:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Up the creek without a paddle I'm look'in for a little insight on river travel, specificaly the Fraser river in Vancouver. I'm look'in into some moorage near New Westminister. Anybody know the rivers current?, what about spring run off? I have heard the river mouth is treacherous, what conditions contribute to this? Any information would be appreciated, I've never been up the creek without a paddle. Thanx Tom Casault [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27176|27163|2011-12-10 21:23:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stuffing box...|Hi, Gary - On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 08:03:37PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Ben, > The graphite seal on your PSS unit is mounted on rubber, so > electrically isolated from the shaft. Actually, the graphite - although it is indeed mounted in the rubber sleeve - is in direct contact with the SS ring that's mounted right on the shaft. Perfect electrical contact, and the salt water "bridges" right across them. You can see a pic here: http://www.shaftseal.com/en/categories/300000002 > In the pumping world, where I > work, stuffing boxes with packing are all but gone. A John Crane #21 > mechanical seal is used almost universally. We order Silicon Carbide > on Silicon Carbide where abrasives might be a problem. I was talking > to an engineer at John Crane at the WEFTEC water show last year, and > he showed me the Silicon Carbide on Diamond, and Diamond on Diamond > #21 seals now available! Whoah. I doubt that those could be easily adapted to boats, but that's a seriously low coefficient of friction! Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik | 27177|27171|2011-12-10 21:31:15|Ben Okopnik|Re: Music lovers...|On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 08:08:17PM -0500, Jay K. Jeffries wrote: > Gary, > > Just out of the ABYC Marine Electrical certification class yesterday where > we discussed this issue. The noise is coming from your inverter most > likely. Either it doesn't have a real clean sine wave (usually the more > expensive a unit is, the better the sine wave form will be) or your inverter > is getting old and the hum is an indication of its impending doom. TruSine and ProWatt (if I recall the names correctly) give you essentially true sine waves - and cost the bloody moon. I keep promising myself one of these for some future Christmas, but... oh, man. A $179 2kW inverter from Harbor Freight has been serving me faithfully for the last X years, and has proven itself again and again in tough situations. My solution to that kind of audio woes - which is the only place a noisy inverter seems to matter - was to buy a really good quality car radio and a good pair of speakers, which eliminates the AC issue altogether. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27178|27170|2011-12-10 22:38:38|Gord Schnell|Re: Up the creek without a paddle|I live along the Fraser near the Queensborough bridge. I often kyak in the river. Currents in the spring can be so strong you cannot paddle up stream around low tide. There are lots of marinas and moorage sites accomodating boats and floathomes, along this stretch of river,,,,pilings are large and driven deep into the riverbed. Prices are NOT cheap. Unless there are strong reasons for mooring there, it may not be the ideal spot for moorage. Gord On 2011-12-10, at 3:08 PM, badpirate36 wrote: > I'm look'in for a little insight on river travel, specificaly the Fraser river in Vancouver. I'm look'in into some moorage near New Westminister. Anybody know the rivers current?, what about spring run off? I have heard the river mouth is treacherous, what conditions contribute to this? Any information would be appreciated, I've never been up the creek without a paddle. > Thanx > Tom Casault > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27179|27171|2011-12-10 22:51:57|Gord Schnell|Re: Music lovers...|An inverter "chops" 12V DC into a "square wave" signal which can then be passed thru a step-up transformer to produce a 120V. "AC" equivalent power source. The electrical "noise" produced by this process is the hum you hear. A bank of large electrolytic (polarized) capacitors may smooth the waveform enough to reduce or remove the hum. A higher quality inverter will take care of this for you. A better (more cost effective) solution is to use 12V DC automotive stereo equipment. Does your laptop computer not accomodate a DC charger....most laptops run from a 12V internal battery. If so, charge your laptop from your 12V battery bank. Gord On 2011-12-10, at 4:38 PM, GP wrote: > Nothing like some music while on the hook in a quiet anchorage. Lately I am increasingly aware of speaker hum. I have Logi Tech speakers consisting of a woofer and 2 smaller speakers plugged into my notebook computer by a single jack. The computer is plugged into an inverter. If the music is loud the hum is tolerable but not at lower volumes. Is there a fix for this? > > thanks.. > Gary > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27180|27163|2011-12-11 06:48:59|mauro gonzaga|Re: Stuffing box...|OK Ben. I will go through engineering standards (I am an Engineer Inspector in petrochemical industry), I know graphite is required in steam service, long time ago I was inspecting pumps and valves, now only boilers and pressure vessels. I was marine engineer and at that time ships had gland to seal shaft using braided impregnated with animal fat. I will find out whether or not graphite is  recommended in sea water for pumps and valves. I will make my own test by putting together a short ss bar and a piece of graphite braided rope. However since your experience is positive maybe there is some manufacturing "secret" which avoids the electrolysis between the graphite and the ss shaft. Fair wind Mauro    ________________________________ From: Ben Okopnik To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 10:01 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Stuffing box...   On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 12:45:55PM -0800, mauro gonzaga wrote: > stainless shaft near the graphite "doughnut" of one.> > > I insist Ben, no graphite in contact with metal in sea water. It's interesting that at least two large companies that have been around for years disagree with you - and have made a commercial success of their belief (and practice.) Is it possible that there's some factor you haven't taken into account? Their product demonstrably works, in thousands of boats and for many years. Given that, can it actually be as bad as you say? > Probably until the shaft keeps turning electrolysis might not happen, I presume this is true, but when the boat is left moored for one or two months, yes, it will happen. My cruising has sometimes consisted of longish passages followed by very long stays; e.g., "Ulysses" sat in St. Augustine harbor for several years without moving, and without turning her prop even once for as long as several months. When I pulled the shaft a few years after that and examined it for cracks, etc., I didn't see any corrosion or deterioration. Maybe my theory about the lack of water flow implies stagnant (i.e., low-oxygen) water in that area? I don't know - I'm guessing here. What I do know is what I've seen: no visible deterioration ~10 years after I installed the PSS on "Ulysses". Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27181|27163|2011-12-11 12:44:58|Paul Thompson|Re: Stuffing box...|I can support Ben's statement. I too have been using a PSS shaft seal for more than 20 years. 20 years of faultless service, without any problems and no water in the boat. -- Regards, Paul Thompson On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 7:11 AM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:25:01AM +0100, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: >> >> The notorious rubber-brass-nodripper will nearly sink Your fourty-footer well before the pudding while You're dining out, with only a small piece of plastic debris caught/drawn into the rubber dome while "parking" in a not-so-tidy public harbour ... it requires a certain amount of deadpan-humour, learning about "dripless" this way. > > Having been shipmates with the PSS shaft seal for nearly 20 years at > this point, on two different boats, I can report from personal > experience that I've never seen the slightest amount of pitting on the > stainless shaft near the graphite "doughnut" of one. I also can't > imagine anything getting "drawn into" a shaft seal, since that plastic > debris would somehow have to make its way past the tiny flutes in the > shaft log (???) - and that would have to happen despite there being zero > water flow into that seal. In fact, I recall a bit of water pouring out > of the shaft tube when I last pulled the shaft despite the boat having > sat on land for most of a week, which argues for that area between the > shaft seal and the PSS being almost water-tight. (And no, it wasn't > bilge water; steel boats tend to have dry bilges. Another benefit. :) > > If someone managed to make a bunch of microscopic, self-powered, > shaft-seal-seeking pieces of plastic, I suppose it would be possible... > but for the moment, I'm a big fan of having had almost 20 years in which > I've never had to pack, repack, adjust the drip rate, or lie in > contorted positions to do any of the above on a regular basis. Those who > prefer other approaches are welcome to them; I've found what works for > me. > > > Ben | 27182|27163|2011-12-11 14:02:05|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Stuffing box...|I definitely do appreciate the experience of other sailors and started some research. The heavy users seem to be content, systems seem to work well and with low maintenance in deed on all-day-vessels, while weekend sailors till today seem to have some recurring hassle when built in leisure-yachts. I still do not know what would be the most secure shaft gland on a sparsely used leisure-yacht. Reading goes on. Links welcome. What sunk, back in 1989, the 40something feet greek-built GRP noname-ketch I wrote about was obviously an early predecessor of today's PSS shaft glands, we had an already well used inner sterntube-bearing made of rubber, no extra opening/hose to the bellows, made from nitril-rubber, and a runner/ring-combination both made of stainless steel (it actually was exactly the same material as the shaft), bellows prestressed towards the runner and attached to the stern tube with a band clamp each. Supposedly this missing hose to extra fill the bellows drew, together with the (reasonable) shaft-movement while manoeuvring, some small (non-microscopic, of course) parts, drifting in the cesspit of Rhodes-City they called "harbour" these days, to the inner side of the bearing into the bellow, and with this movement the bellow's initial tense seemed to slack enough to enable a wedging of those plastic parts between runner and ring during heavy use of forward and reverse. Taking water through this wedged bellow started slow enough to stay unnoticed till we left about an hour after mooring. Rondabout six hours later the vessel was hardly floating, with nice brownish harbour-liquids about 1.5 meters above floor boards. Besides those parts between runner and ring no other defects were found when hauled out. With a "traditional" flax stuffing this would not have happened. I suppose: neither with a well maintained todays PSS and some less worn, less wobbly engine mounts. This sort of engine mounts are not a very seldom exception, though, for sailors seem not to love their engines enough for proper maintenance usually. Am 11.12.2011 um 18:44 schrieb Paul Thompson: > I can support Ben's statement. I too have been using a PSS shaft seal > for more than 20 years. 20 years of faultless service, without any > problems and no water in the boat. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 7:11 AM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:25:01AM +0100, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > >> > >> The notorious rubber-brass-nodripper will nearly sink Your fourty-footer well before the pudding while You're dining out, with only a small piece of plastic debris caught/drawn into the rubber dome while "parking" in a not-so-tidy public harbour ... it requires a certain amount of deadpan-humour, learning about "dripless" this way. > > > > Having been shipmates with the PSS shaft seal for nearly 20 years at > > this point, on two different boats, I can report from personal > > experience that I've never seen the slightest amount of pitting on the > > stainless shaft near the graphite "doughnut" of one. I also can't > > imagine anything getting "drawn into" a shaft seal, since that plastic > > debris would somehow have to make its way past the tiny flutes in the > > shaft log (???) - and that would have to happen despite there being zero > > water flow into that seal. In fact, I recall a bit of water pouring out > > of the shaft tube when I last pulled the shaft despite the boat having > > sat on land for most of a week, which argues for that area between the > > shaft seal and the PSS being almost water-tight. (And no, it wasn't > > bilge water; steel boats tend to have dry bilges. Another benefit. :) > > > > If someone managed to make a bunch of microscopic, self-powered, > > shaft-seal-seeking pieces of plastic, I suppose it would be possible... > > but for the moment, I'm a big fan of having had almost 20 years in which > > I've never had to pack, repack, adjust the drip rate, or lie in > > contorted positions to do any of the above on a regular basis. Those who > > prefer other approaches are welcome to them; I've found what works for > > me. > > > > > > Ben > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27183|27171|2011-12-11 20:40:29|scott|Re: Music lovers...|My wifes computer here at the house gets a weird hum if in proximity to her cell phone. If there is an incoming phone call it gets very loud. We can reliably predict 20 seconds before her phone rings that it will be going to. I imaging it has to do with the phone replying to a query by the nearest cell tower and going to a higher power state as it lets the tower know it is there and ready to accept a call. I have over the years of working on computers as my job seen more than one case of speakers that were sensitive to rf frequency radiation and gave everything from hums to actually picking up and sounding out radio stations or portable phones. you might borrow some speakers and try some different ones.. I doubt this is your issue as it is pretty rare but its cheap to test if you can borrow some. :) possibly you could use one of the ferrite cores on your power supply to the computer.. not sure if they work for 110 volt appliances though like they do for 12v or if this is even a situation where that would help. scott| 27184|27171|2011-12-11 22:59:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Music lovers...|On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 01:40:19AM -0000, scott wrote: > > possibly you could use one of the ferrite cores on your power supply to the computer.. not sure if they work for 110 volt appliances though like they do for 12v or if this is even a situation where that would help. A ferrite core would have to be pretty hefty to have much impedance at 60Hz. Overall, single-component noise reduction isn't very effective - and designing anything more than that is takes a bit more knowledge than the usual amateur is likely to have. The most likely cause of problems in this case is a noisy inverter; all but the expensive ones put out square (or nearly so) waves, and those are composed of a progressive series of odd harmonics, plus ringing artifacts, etc. - in short, _really_ noisy electronic circuitry. We can be grateful that most 110VAC electronic gear 1) uses transformers, which _are_ decent-sized inductors (i.e., surpress much of the noise), 2) have capacitors in their power supplies (ditto), and 3) aren't all that sensitive to noise anyway. Audio gear is an exception - but it's available in decent quality at 12VDC, which handles the problem effectively. We'll probably never have access to *really* high-end audio gear on boats - Sasha Dondysh, my brilliant audio-designer buddy who invented SPDIF and builds $35k audio amplifiers (8 needed to drive _each_ of his favorite speakers...) looks at me with pity and horror when I tell him about my power situation - we can get pretty darned good stuff these days, thanks to all the people with expensive boom boxes in their cars. I installed a $129 Walmart special, and it's got an amazing number of features - remote control, plays music from every conceivable type of media including hard drives and flash drives, etc. My untutored ears tell me the sound quality is terrific - no noise at all. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27185|27163|2011-12-11 23:06:21|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stuffing box...|HI, Mauro - On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 03:48:57AM -0800, mauro gonzaga wrote: > OK Ben. I will go through engineering standards (I am an Engineer > Inspector in petrochemical industry), I know graphite is required in > steam service, long time ago I was inspecting pumps and valves, now only boilers and pressure vessels. I was marine engineer and at that time > ships had gland to seal shaft using braided impregnated with animal fat. I will find out whether or not graphite is  recommended in sea water > for pumps and valves. I will make my own test by putting together a > short ss bar and a piece of graphite braided rope. That's probably best. To replicate the typical environment, you would need to solidly ground both as well (the shaft is, of course, grounded via the engine, and thus the graphite - which is mechanically in constant contact with it - is also.) > However since your > experience is positive maybe there is some manufacturing "secret" which > avoids the electrolysis between the graphite and the ss shaft. I wonder if it's as simple as the fact that they _are_ solidly tied together so that no difference in potential can build between them? Again, I'm pretty weak on chemistry, so I'm just guessing, but it seems reasonable. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik | 27186|27171|2011-12-11 23:37:03|Paul Wilson|Re: Music lovers...|In aircraft, audio wires are always shielded to help prevent noise problems. I would use two conductor wire with a separate shield grounded at one end. Make sure the shield doesn't touch any of the wires because some amplifiers have floating outputs and can be damaged when grounded. If you just want to do a quick experiment, you can wrap some tin-foil around the wire and ground it to see if it makes any difference. Cheers, Paul| 27187|27163|2011-12-11 23:46:23|David Jones|Re: Stuffing box...|Ben, That's not how galvanic corrosion works. The two materials in direct contact create the potential difference that causes the galvanic action. Also bear in mind that graphite and carbon are not the same at all in the galvanic series. Graphite is quite nobel and it's potential is close to 316 stainless steel, it is more nobel than the 316 but not a lot. I would not expect to see galvanic corrosion between those materials. I'm sure the graphite seals have to be impregnated with something, I don't know what. But that could be used to further protect against galvanic corrosion. dj On Sun, 11 Dec 2011, Ben Okopnik wrote: > I wonder if it's as simple as the fact that they _are_ solidly tied > together so that no difference in potential can build between them? > Again, I'm pretty weak on chemistry, so I'm just guessing, but it seems > reasonable. > > Ben | 27188|27163|2011-12-12 00:22:30|Paul Wilson|Re: Stuffing box...|AAAHHHH......It makes sense to me now. Carbon-Graphite is not carbon and it is not graphite.... http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=516#_Carbon-Graphites I would assume the mix they use is close to SS on the galvanic table. Anyway, don't you need an electrolyte for galvanic corrosion or is Wikipedia wrong? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion Cheers, Paul On 12/12/2011 5:46 p.m., David Jones wrote: > > Ben, > > That's not how galvanic corrosion works. The two materials in direct > contact create the potential difference that causes the galvanic action. > > Also bear in mind that graphite and carbon are not the same at all in the > galvanic series. Graphite is quite nobel and it's potential is close to > 316 stainless steel, it is more nobel than the 316 but not a lot. I would > not expect to see galvanic corrosion between those materials. > > I'm sure the graphite seals have to be impregnated with something, I > don't > know what. But that could be used to further protect against galvanic > corrosion. > > dj > > On Sun, 11 Dec 2011, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > I wonder if it's as simple as the fact that they _are_ solidly tied > > together so that no difference in potential can build between them? > > Again, I'm pretty weak on chemistry, so I'm just guessing, but it seems > > reasonable. > > > > Ben > > | 27189|27163|2011-12-12 20:04:16|David Jones|Re: Stuffing box...|Paul, Not sure what you mean about not needing an electrolyte. Here's the first sentence in the wiki reference you are asking about: "Galvanic corrosion is an electrochemical process in which one metal corrodes preferentially to another when both metals are in electrical contact and immersed in an electrolyte. The same galvanic reaction is exploited in primary batteries to generate a voltage." I didn't see where it said you don't need an electrolyte. A galvanic cell needs an electrolyte. It can be small like droplets, or moisture of some sort, but it is part of the process... dj On Mon, 12 Dec 2011, Paul Wilson wrote: > AAAHHHH......It makes sense to me now. Carbon-Graphite is not carbon and > it is not graphite.... > > http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=516#_Carbon-Graphites > > I would assume the mix they use is close to SS on the galvanic table. > > Anyway, don't you need an electrolyte for galvanic corrosion or is > Wikipedia wrong? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion > > Cheers, Paul > > | 27190|27163|2011-12-12 21:45:48|Paul Wilson|Re: Stuffing box...|I must have misunderstood your previous postings. I agree you need an electrolyte. I thought you were saying that all you needed was two different metals coming in to contact. Cheers, Paul On 13/12/2011 2:04 p.m., David Jones wrote: > > Paul, > > Not sure what you mean about not needing an electrolyte. Here's the first > sentence in the wiki reference you are asking about: > > "Galvanic corrosion is an electrochemical process in which one metal > corrodes preferentially to another when both metals are in electrical > contact and immersed in an electrolyte. The same galvanic reaction is > exploited in primary batteries to generate a voltage." > > I didn't see where it said you don't need an electrolyte. A galvanic cell > needs an electrolyte. It can be small like droplets, or moisture of some > sort, but it is part of the process... > > dj > > On Mon, 12 Dec 2011, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > AAAHHHH......It makes sense to me now. Carbon-Graphite is not carbon and > > it is not graphite.... > > > > http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=516#_Carbon-Graphites > > > > I would assume the mix they use is close to SS on the galvanic table. > > > > Anyway, don't you need an electrolyte for galvanic corrosion or is > > Wikipedia wrong? > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > | 27191|27163|2011-12-12 22:26:43|David Jones|Re: Stuffing box...|Paul, Oh, I probably didn't overtly state you need an electolyte. It's like stating the obvious...sorry... The question was if by being in closer contact if that would make the galvanic couple less... (the opposite is the case...) The potential I mentioned about graphite, by the way, was taken in flowing seawater. Probably pretty close to the conditions of the seal on a rotating shaft. dj On Tue, 13 Dec 2011, Paul Wilson wrote: > I must have misunderstood your previous postings. I agree you need an > electrolyte. I thought you were saying that all you needed was two > different metals coming in to contact. > > Cheers, Paul > | 27192|27171|2011-12-13 10:05:27|will jones|Re: Music lovers...|Your power is already highly conditioned by the AC to DC power supply built into your laptop.  You laptop wouldn't be able to operate if it wasn't.  So an additional AC conditioner or higher quality inverter on the front end to your power supply won't get you much in the way of solving your problem. The problem is with feedback in the ground or common, which isn't so well conditioned with capacitors and opamps.  It is conditioned, just not so much and even less so at the speaker jack since most just dump to common.  Anything with a clock cycle on it has much more conditioning to minimize backfeed from ground. A simple solution is to get a ground loop conditioner for about 10-15 bucks US and hook in between your speakers and your computer jack. This will isolate out the 50-60Hz hum you hear from your speakers. Most of the problems seen in noise effects in modern or current electronics is still due to a general lack of protection on the ground or common sides.  Most of our electronics today are multifunction chips with MOSFET components that are protected on both the supply and ground within its own circuit path: however, outputs, especially audio, are typically just dumped to common without much if any conditioning.  By conditioning I mean using operational amplifiers, capacitors, diodes and resistors to clean up signals and chip supply voltages. The common leg is just the wild wild west of electronic noise.  For any attached output devices, like speakers, just turn to ground isolation to solve many spurious problems. --- On Sat, 12/10/11, GP wrote: From: GP Subject: [origamiboats] Music lovers... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 10, 2011, 7:38 PM   Nothing like some music while on the hook in a quiet anchorage. Lately I am increasingly aware of speaker hum. I have Logi Tech speakers consisting of a woofer and 2 smaller speakers plugged into my notebook computer by a single jack. The computer is plugged into an inverter. If the music is loud the hum is tolerable but not at lower volumes. Is there a fix for this? thanks.. Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27193|27171|2011-12-13 13:45:11|GP|Re: Music lovers...|Thanks Will for the info. I will check out Radio Shack (the Source) to see if I can get one of those... If not where would one likely find one? thanks Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > Your power is already highly conditioned by the AC to DC power supply built into your laptop.  You laptop wouldn't be able to operate if it wasn't.  So an additional AC conditioner or higher quality inverter on the front end to your power supply won't get you much in the way of solving your problem. > > The problem is with feedback in the ground or common, which isn't so well conditioned with capacitors and opamps.  It is conditioned, just not so much and even less so at the speaker jack since most just dump to common.  Anything with a clock cycle on it has much more conditioning to minimize backfeed from ground. A simple solution is to get a ground loop conditioner for about 10-15 bucks US and hook in between your speakers and your computer jack. > > This will isolate out the 50-60Hz hum you hear from your speakers. > > Most of the problems seen in noise effects in modern or current electronics is still due to a general lack of protection on the ground or common sides.  Most of our electronics today are multifunction chips with MOSFET components that are protected on both the supply and ground within its own circuit path: however, outputs, especially audio, are typically just dumped to common without much if any conditioning.  By conditioning I mean using operational amplifiers, capacitors, diodes and resistors to clean up signals and chip supply voltages. > The common leg is just the wild wild west of electronic noise.  For any attached output devices, like speakers, just turn to ground isolation to solve many spurious problems. > > > > > --- On Sat, 12/10/11, GP wrote: > > From: GP > Subject: [origamiboats] Music lovers... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, December 10, 2011, 7:38 PM > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Nothing like some music while on the hook in a quiet anchorage. Lately I am increasingly aware of speaker hum. I have Logi Tech speakers consisting of a woofer and 2 smaller speakers plugged into my notebook computer by a single jack. The computer is plugged into an inverter. If the music is loud the hum is tolerable but not at lower volumes. Is there a fix for this? > > > > thanks.. > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27194|27163|2011-12-13 14:35:05|GP|Re: Stuffing box...|Ben... I am leaning in that direction PSS seal. However, I did read on Cruisers Forum that the danger is a "catastrophic" failure of something or another which would not happen with flax for example. Can a PSS unit have a "catastophic" failure? P.S.. I do not know what part of the PSS seal the poster was referring to. thanks Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:25:01AM +0100, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > > The notorious rubber-brass-nodripper will nearly sink Your fourty-footer well before the pudding while You're dining out, with only a small piece of plastic debris caught/drawn into the rubber dome while "parking" in a not-so-tidy public harbour ... it requires a certain amount of deadpan-humour, learning about "dripless" this way. > > Having been shipmates with the PSS shaft seal for nearly 20 years at > this point, on two different boats, I can report from personal > experience that I've never seen the slightest amount of pitting on the > stainless shaft near the graphite "doughnut" of one. I also can't > imagine anything getting "drawn into" a shaft seal, since that plastic > debris would somehow have to make its way past the tiny flutes in the > shaft log (???) - and that would have to happen despite there being zero > water flow into that seal. In fact, I recall a bit of water pouring out > of the shaft tube when I last pulled the shaft despite the boat having > sat on land for most of a week, which argues for that area between the > shaft seal and the PSS being almost water-tight. (And no, it wasn't > bilge water; steel boats tend to have dry bilges. Another benefit. :) > > If someone managed to make a bunch of microscopic, self-powered, > shaft-seal-seeking pieces of plastic, I suppose it would be possible... > but for the moment, I'm a big fan of having had almost 20 years in which > I've never had to pack, repack, adjust the drip rate, or lie in > contorted positions to do any of the above on a regular basis. Those who > prefer other approaches are welcome to them; I've found what works for > me. > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > | 27195|27171|2011-12-13 14:37:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: Music lovers...|On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 07:05:26AM -0800, will jones wrote: > Your power is already highly conditioned by the AC to DC power supply > built into your laptop.  You laptop wouldn't be able to operate if it > wasn't.  So an additional AC conditioner or higher quality inverter on > the front end to your power supply won't get you much in the way of > solving your problem. That's a bit misleading, actually: for one thing, digital electronics can operate in a fairly noisy electrical environment - it takes a relatively large voltage to switch from a 0 to a 1, you see - whereas audio electronics cannot. This is why $400 AC cables for audio electronics sell like hot-cakes, but nothing like that even exists for PCs. One of the most basic restrictions on good filtering in PCs, incidentally, is size: for an inductor to have high impedance at low frequencies, it has to be physically large. Ditto low-impedance capacitors. A _really_ effective LC filter would be about the size of the average netbook all by itself. And yet, digital electronics operate just fine - including being driven from the crudest, noisiest inverters. To be precise, it's not really the audio _circuitry_ that's so sensitive to the electrical noise; it's our ears. I have a totally musically- unsophisticated pair of eardrums, and yet the last time I visited my audio-genius buddy Alex in his San Francisco lab, he demonstrated to me that a) those $400 AC cables actually do make a quite audible difference on a very high-end audio system, and b) that human ears can hear a shift in the *pico*second range at appropriate frequencies. The man started with a degree in psychoacoustics, and has, as far as I can tell, rewritten the books for that entire science. After most of a lifetime of working as an electronics technician, engineer, and computer specialist, I feel like a rank amateur talking to him; it's a humbling and incredibly educational experience. > The problem is with feedback in the ground or common, which isn't so > well conditioned with capacitors and opamps. Incorrect, I'm afraid. Op-amps don't condition anything; they're just amplifiers. Sure, they're used in noise cancellation as part of the feedback circuitry - but so are solder, wires, and printed circuit boards, and none of those "condition" anything either. In addition, you _can't_ condition the common: it's the reference that everything is measured from. You can't condition it any more than you can stabilize the value of zero. All that can be conditioned are the signal and power values _above_ ground - i.e., non-zero volt levels, which electrical noise is, by definition. > It is conditioned, just not so much and even less so at the speaker > jack since most just dump to common. Which is precisely what they should do and is the only thing that can be done. The problem happens when not enough of the undesired signal is dumped to ground. > Anything with a clock cycle on it has much more conditioning to > minimize backfeed from ground. I don't know where you heard that, but it's simply not true. > A simple solution is to get a ground loop conditioner for about 10-15 > bucks US and hook in between your speakers and your computer jack. What's a "ground loop conditioner"? I've been working with electronics since I was 14, and I've never heard of one. Google turns up a total of 7 hits - of which 3 are about plumbing problems, 3 are "word farms", and 1 is to something called "Shivelbine Music" which gives you an empty page when you go there. Perhaps you mean something else? > Most of the problems seen in noise effects in modern or current > electronics is still due to a general lack of protection on the ground > or common sides.  Since it's impossible to "protect" 0 volts, that statement makes no sense. > Most of our electronics today are multifunction chips with MOSFET > components Also incorrect: MOSFETs are typically used in power applications (e.g., audio outputs and inverters), and only rarely anywhere else. Bipolar transistors are by far the most common type. > that are protected on both the supply and ground within its own > circuit path: however, outputs, especially audio, are typically just > dumped to common without much if any conditioning.  By conditioning I > mean using operational amplifiers, capacitors, diodes and resistors to > clean up signals and chip supply voltages. Resistors and diodes don't do any noise filtering, any more than op-amps do. > The common leg is just the wild wild west of electronic noise.  For > any attached output devices, like speakers, just turn to ground > isolation to solve many spurious problems. Ground isolation is a power protection strategy that has nothing to do with electrical noise. The ground, as long as it is solidly connected, is at zero volts - i.e., zero electrical noise by definition. A loose or a floating ground can indeed lead to a noisy circuit - but a screwdriver (or a soldering iron, at most) is all that's necessary to fix that. No filtering is necessary, or even possible. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27196|27163|2011-12-13 14:53:55|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stuffing box...|On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 07:35:01PM -0000, GP wrote: > Ben... I am leaning in that direction PSS seal. However, I did read > on Cruisers Forum that the danger is a "catastrophic" failure of > something or another which would not happen with flax for example. > Can a PSS unit have a "catastophic" failure? P.S.. I do not know what > part of the PSS seal the poster was referring to. I suppose that you could shatter the graphite donut with a mallet. Or you could saw through the compression sleeve. Can't really imagine much of anything else; it's a pretty sturdy unit. A good-quality ball valve on your boat is about as likely to suffer "catastrophic" failure. As to random opinions on the Cruiser's Forum... there's always another dozen of those if you just ask. :) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27197|27163|2011-12-13 15:10:12|Brian Stannard|Re: Stuffing box...|The bellows, which should be replaced every 5 years according to the manufacturer, is the item that can fail. Most do not replace it often as it requires pulling the shaft to do so. A conventional stuffing box may leak but does so predictably. On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:35 AM, GP wrote: > ** > > > Ben... I am leaning in that direction PSS seal. However, I did read on > Cruisers Forum that the danger is a "catastrophic" failure of something or > another which would not happen with flax for example. Can a PSS unit have a > "catastophic" failure? P.S.. I do not know what part of the PSS seal the > poster was referring to. > > thanks > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:25:01AM +0100, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > > > > The notorious rubber-brass-nodripper will nearly sink Your > fourty-footer well before the pudding while You're dining out, with only a > small piece of plastic debris caught/drawn into the rubber dome while > "parking" in a not-so-tidy public harbour ... it requires a certain amount > of deadpan-humour, learning about "dripless" this way. > > > > Having been shipmates with the PSS shaft seal for nearly 20 years at > > this point, on two different boats, I can report from personal > > experience that I've never seen the slightest amount of pitting on the > > stainless shaft near the graphite "doughnut" of one. I also can't > > imagine anything getting "drawn into" a shaft seal, since that plastic > > debris would somehow have to make its way past the tiny flutes in the > > shaft log (???) - and that would have to happen despite there being zero > > water flow into that seal. In fact, I recall a bit of water pouring out > > of the shaft tube when I last pulled the shaft despite the boat having > > sat on land for most of a week, which argues for that area between the > > shaft seal and the PSS being almost water-tight. (And no, it wasn't > > bilge water; steel boats tend to have dry bilges. Another benefit. :) > > > > If someone managed to make a bunch of microscopic, self-powered, > > shaft-seal-seeking pieces of plastic, I suppose it would be possible... > > but for the moment, I'm a big fan of having had almost 20 years in which > > I've never had to pack, repack, adjust the drip rate, or lie in > > contorted positions to do any of the above on a regular basis. Those who > > prefer other approaches are welcome to them; I've found what works for > > me. > > > > > > Ben > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27198|27163|2011-12-13 15:18:19|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stuffing box...|On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:10:09PM -0800, Brian Stannard wrote: > The bellows, which should be replaced every 5 years according to the > manufacturer, is the item that can fail. Most do not replace it often as it > requires pulling the shaft to do so. A conventional stuffing box may leak > but does so predictably. The only recommendation I've actually seen was 10 years, not 5 - and as I recall, the Lasdrop seal doesn't even have a bellows. Incidentally, when I last examined my PSS, the bellows looked brand new in spite of being right around 10 years old - so that replacement schedule is very conservative (and appropriately so.) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27199|27163|2011-12-13 15:23:47|Brian Stannard|Re: Stuffing box...|I was incorrect - they state 6 year intervals for the bellows replacement for the PSS shaftseal. They also warn of oil, fuel, and battery gassing being issues. http://www.shaftseal.com/en/about/shaftseal_maintenance_kit On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > ** > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:10:09PM -0800, Brian Stannard wrote: > > The bellows, which should be replaced every 5 years according to the > > manufacturer, is the item that can fail. Most do not replace it often as > it > > requires pulling the shaft to do so. A conventional stuffing box may leak > > but does so predictably. > > The only recommendation I've actually seen was 10 years, not 5 - and as I > recall, the Lasdrop seal doesn't even have a bellows. Incidentally, when > I last examined my PSS, the bellows looked brand new in spite of being > right around 10 years old - so that replacement schedule is very > conservative (and appropriately so.) > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27200|27163|2011-12-13 15:27:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stuffing box...|On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:23:43PM -0800, Brian Stannard wrote: > I was incorrect - they state 6 year intervals for the bellows replacement > for the PSS shaftseal. They also warn of oil, fuel, and battery gassing > being issues. http://www.shaftseal.com/en/about/shaftseal_maintenance_kit Oh, cool - thanks for the update (they must have changed their recommendations since I installed mine.) I'm not surprised about the other stuff, since that would make any hose - including that on a regular stuffing box - rot out. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27201|27163|2011-12-13 15:37:51|Brian Stannard|Re: Stuffing box...|True, but the hose used on a regular stuffing box is a lot different than the bellows on a PSS shaft seal. Thicker, tougher, and reinforced. On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > ** > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:23:43PM -0800, Brian Stannard wrote: > > I was incorrect - they state 6 year intervals for the bellows replacement > > for the PSS shaftseal. They also warn of oil, fuel, and battery gassing > > being issues. > http://www.shaftseal.com/en/about/shaftseal_maintenance_kit > > Oh, cool - thanks for the update (they must have changed their > recommendations since I installed mine.) I'm not surprised about the > other stuff, since that would make any hose - including that on a > regular stuffing box - rot out. > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27202|27163|2011-12-13 15:57:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stuffing box...|On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:37:48PM -0800, Brian Stannard wrote: > True, but the hose used on a regular stuffing box is a lot different than > the bellows on a PSS shaft seal. Thicker, tougher, and reinforced. I don't have the PSS in front of me right now, so I can't compare - but as I recall, it's quite thick and reinforced also. As to the durability, I just replaced a blocked heater hose; the outer lining was torn and the inner lining had collapsed and plugged up the line, all due to being soaked in oil (the new one is secured several inches above the bilge sole, as it should have been in the first place.) So much for toughness, etc. However, we're now talking about exceptional circumstances - there's no reason for fuel or oil to be anywhere near a shaft seal - so it's not particularly applicable. If you really want to emulate a stuffing box, rigid hose and all, a Lasdrop looks pretty much like that: http://x.co/bm3C Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27203|27171|2011-12-13 16:14:46|wild_explorer|Re: Music lovers...|Ben, I think you both talking about the same things ;) Circuit's common ground almost never will be 0 for AC (high or low frequency), and sometimes even for DC. Usually, on cheap electronics you may not see common ground loop at all. If low signal's amplifiers are not shielded, it will be another source of noise. Some manufacturers even forgot how to minimize AC noise (like twisting wires or run traces at angle close to 90 degrees). Everyone trying to minimize the size of the equipment ;) On big printed boards, running extra wires from several common ground points on a board to common ground of power supply may make a big difference for analog signals. Same could be done with extra AC filters from common ground points on a board to common ground of power supply. P.S. I am not talking about ground for AC portion of power supply. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > The problem is with feedback in the ground or common, which isn't so > > well conditioned with capacitors and opamps. > > Incorrect, I'm afraid. Op-amps don't condition anything; they're just > amplifiers. Sure, they're used in noise cancellation as part of the > feedback circuitry - but so are solder, wires, and printed circuit > boards, and none of those "condition" anything either. > > In addition, you _can't_ condition the common: it's the reference that > everything is measured from. You can't condition it any more than you > can stabilize the value of zero. All that can be conditioned are the > signal and power values _above_ ground - i.e., non-zero volt levels, > which electrical noise is, by definition. > > > It is conditioned, just not so much and even less so at the speaker > > jack since most just dump to common. > > Which is precisely what they should do and is the only thing that can be > done. The problem happens when not enough of the undesired signal is > dumped to ground. > | 27204|27163|2011-12-13 16:23:45|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Stuffing box...|Brian, If I were you I would never use a PSS shaft seal. Because clearly you can find the exception to every rule, and could never sleep soundly on a boat that might prove to be the exception. Gary H. Lucas -----Original Message----- From: Brian Stannard Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 3:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stuffing box... True, but the hose used on a regular stuffing box is a lot different than the bellows on a PSS shaft seal. Thicker, tougher, and reinforced. On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > ** > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:23:43PM -0800, Brian Stannard wrote: > > I was incorrect - they state 6 year intervals for the bellows > > replacement > > for the PSS shaftseal. They also warn of oil, fuel, and battery gassing > > being issues. > http://www.shaftseal.com/en/about/shaftseal_maintenance_kit > > Oh, cool - thanks for the update (they must have changed their > recommendations since I installed mine.) I'm not surprised about the > other stuff, since that would make any hose - including that on a > regular stuffing box - rot out. > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ | 27205|27163|2011-12-13 16:29:36|Paul Wilson|Re: Stuffing box...|It is not recommended but my friend has just got back from a cruise of about 60,000 miles and the bellows on his PSS is now about 20 years old. He says it is still sound and not leaking but lost it's spring/compression onto the seal. He currently has it pushed up tight and will probably replace it next haul-out when he gets some money. Cheers, Paul| 27206|27171|2011-12-13 16:41:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Music lovers...|On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 09:14:45PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Ben, I think you both talking about the same things ;) Circuit's common ground almost never will be 0 for AC (high or low frequency), and sometimes even for DC. Usually, on cheap electronics you may not see common ground loop at all. If low signal's amplifiers are not shielded, it will be another source of noise. Sure - particularly the input side. > Some manufacturers even forgot how to minimize AC noise (like twisting wires or run traces at angle close to 90 degrees). Everyone trying to minimize the size of the equipment ;) Yep. I think they've found out how much they can get away with, and they don't mind the result (less reliability, so the end user gets to buy replacements more often...) This is also one of the reasons that older electronic equipment is bulky: back then, they _were_ taking the time and the effort to make sure that all that stuff was done correctly, with good spacing and shielding around the noise-producing sections. > On big printed boards, running extra wires from several common ground points on a board to common ground of power supply may make a big difference for analog signals. Yep; did that, along with little tantalum capacitors across the power bus every few inches, when I was designing Gunn/IMPATT power supplies at Hughes. All the physics people couldn't quite figure out why I would do that at the DC end - until they saw my noise plot on the spectrum analyzer. Then they _all_ designed their driver boards the same way. :))) > Same could be done with extra AC filters from common ground points on a board to common ground of power supply. AC is trickier, but yeah - supressing everything except 60Hz is a big help. You'd be amazed at how much crap there is even on a "conditioned" city line. I charted a day's worth of AC one time - again, at Hughes - and the size of the spikes as well as the amount of noise blew people's minds. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27207|27163|2011-12-13 16:42:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stuffing box...|On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 10:28:25AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > It is not recommended but my friend has just got back from a cruise of > about 60,000 miles and the bellows on his PSS is now about 20 years > old. He says it is still sound and not leaking but lost it's > spring/compression onto the seal. He currently has it pushed up tight > and will probably replace it next haul-out when he gets some money. Heh. Good to know what the real lifetime for those things is - not that I'm ever going to push it. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27208|27163|2011-12-13 17:26:00|Brian Stannard|Re: Stuffing box...|Ben The Lasdrop looks like it's pretty tough. The PSS is a different design with quite a flexible bellows. Gary I sleep soundly but like to know what's around me - I like conventional stuffing boxes - decades and decades of use has proven them pretty durable. There have to be many boats with a standard stuffing box that has had zero maintenance for 20, 30, or more years. Not saying they should be ignored but they seem to survive it quite well. On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > ** > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:37:48PM -0800, Brian Stannard wrote: > > True, but the hose used on a regular stuffing box is a lot different than > > the bellows on a PSS shaft seal. Thicker, tougher, and reinforced. > > I don't have the PSS in front of me right now, so I can't compare - but > as I recall, it's quite thick and reinforced also. As to the durability, > I just replaced a blocked heater hose; the outer lining was torn and the > inner lining had collapsed and plugged up the line, all due to being > soaked in oil (the new one is secured several inches above the bilge > sole, as it should have been in the first place.) So much for toughness, > etc. > > However, we're now talking about exceptional circumstances - there's no > reason for fuel or oil to be anywhere near a shaft seal - so it's not > particularly applicable. If you really want to emulate a stuffing box, > rigid hose and all, a Lasdrop looks pretty much like that: > > http://x.co/bm3C > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27209|27171|2011-12-13 18:07:28|will jones|Re: Music lovers...|You are correct on much of this and really most of the items that are partially correct are not worth the pain of discourse for the group.  Please keep in mind I was just generalizing for community at large and nothing I said was misleading, incorrect, nor improperly applied. I will say a few things for clarification.  The hum,  typically 50 to 60Hz, heard in the analog speakers, is typically a ground loop.  This is because common is not isolated and is coupled with the AC input at the power supply, regardless of whether you are using a wall transformer or not. I am not sure why you introduced the audio cable issue, however the digital component of the audio system is producing a digital signal into the digital audio converter (DAC) , with the typical analog audio output, from the DAC, in the 20-30milliWatt range rated typically for 16ohms. As you undoubtedly know, speakers are analog devices that use a logarithmic scale (decibels).  Interestingly enough, typical computer speakers are rated around 30Watts at 4-6 ohms.  Sooooo one needs to boost the DAC output roughly 10,000 times to hear them at any reasonable level in the speakers.  Of course this is off the cuff since I haven't corrected for the difference in impedance and the boost isn't actually 10K, at least in a single step. The major opportunity one has for a consistent hum in the system is the common leg.  Bad audio circuits introduce noticeable interference that is usually more harsh than the hum experienced.  That usually ends up being through the common.  I had a link (now dead unfortunately) for older MSI laptops that experienced this problem. --- On Tue, 12/13/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Music lovers... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 2:37 PM On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 07:05:26AM -0800, will jones wrote: > Your power is already highly conditioned by the AC to DC power supply > built into your laptop.  You laptop wouldn't be able to operate if it > wasn't.  So an additional AC conditioner or higher quality inverter on > the front end to your power supply won't get you much in the way of > solving your problem. That's a bit misleading, actually: for one thing, digital electronics can operate in a fairly noisy electrical environment - it takes a relatively large voltage to switch from a 0 to a 1, you see - whereas audio electronics cannot. This is why $400 AC cables for audio electronics sell like hot-cakes, but nothing like that even exists for PCs. One of the most basic restrictions on good filtering in PCs, incidentally, is size: for an inductor to have high impedance at low frequencies, it has to be physically large. Ditto low-impedance capacitors. A _really_ effective LC filter would be about the size of the average netbook all by itself. And yet, digital electronics operate just fine - including being driven from the crudest, noisiest inverters. To be precise, it's not really the audio _circuitry_ that's so sensitive to the electrical noise; it's our ears. I have a totally musically- unsophisticated pair of eardrums, and yet the last time I visited my audio-genius buddy Alex in his San Francisco lab, he demonstrated to me that a) those $400 AC cables actually do make a quite audible difference on a very high-end audio system, and b) that human ears can hear a shift in the *pico*second range at appropriate frequencies. The man started with a degree in psychoacoustics, and has, as far as I can tell, rewritten the books for that entire science. After most of a lifetime of working as an electronics technician, engineer, and computer specialist, I feel like a rank amateur talking to him; it's a humbling and incredibly educational experience. > The problem is with feedback in the ground or common, which isn't so > well conditioned with capacitors and opamps. Incorrect, I'm afraid. Op-amps don't condition anything; they're just amplifiers. Sure, they're used in noise cancellation as part of the feedback circuitry - but so are solder, wires, and printed circuit boards, and none of those "condition" anything either. In addition, you _can't_ condition the common: it's the reference that everything is measured from. You can't condition it any more than you can stabilize the value of zero. All that can be conditioned are the signal and power values _above_ ground - i.e., non-zero volt levels, which electrical noise is, by definition. > It is conditioned, just not so much and even less so at the speaker > jack since most just dump to common. Which is precisely what they should do and is the only thing that can be done. The problem happens when not enough of the undesired signal is dumped to ground. > Anything with a clock cycle on it has much more conditioning to > minimize backfeed from ground. I don't know where you heard that, but it's simply not true. > A simple solution is to get a ground loop conditioner for about 10-15 > bucks US and hook in between your speakers and your computer jack. What's a "ground loop conditioner"? I've been working with electronics since I was 14, and I've never heard of one. Google turns up a total of 7 hits - of which 3 are about plumbing problems, 3 are "word farms", and 1 is to something called "Shivelbine Music" which gives you an empty page when you go there. Perhaps you mean something else? > Most of the problems seen in noise effects in modern or current > electronics is still due to a general lack of protection on the ground > or common sides.  Since it's impossible to "protect" 0 volts, that statement makes no sense. > Most of our electronics today are multifunction chips with MOSFET > components Also incorrect: MOSFETs are typically used in power applications (e.g., audio outputs and inverters), and only rarely anywhere else. Bipolar transistors are by far the most common type. > that are protected on both the supply and ground within its own > circuit path: however, outputs, especially audio, are typically just > dumped to common without much if any conditioning.  By conditioning I > mean using operational amplifiers, capacitors, diodes and resistors to > clean up signals and chip supply voltages. Resistors and diodes don't do any noise filtering, any more than op-amps do. > The common leg is just the wild wild west of electronic noise.  For > any attached output devices, like speakers, just turn to ground > isolation to solve many spurious problems. Ground isolation is a power protection strategy that has nothing to do with electrical noise. The ground, as long as it is solidly connected, is at zero volts - i.e., zero electrical noise by definition. A loose or a floating ground can indeed lead to a noisy circuit - but a screwdriver (or a soldering iron, at most) is all that's necessary to fix that. No filtering is necessary, or even possible. Ben --                        OKOPNIK CONSULTING         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming   443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27210|27171|2011-12-13 18:08:58|will jones|Re: Music lovers...|Radio shack is more like battery and cell phone shack now.  Try this link at Crutchfield.  It will give you an idea on what to search on in Google. http://www.crutchfield.com/p_127SNI135/PAC-SNI-1-3-5-Noise-Filter.html?tp=2653 --- On Tue, 12/13/11, GP wrote: From: GP Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Music lovers... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 1:45 PM   Thanks Will for the info. I will check out Radio Shack (the Source) to see if I can get one of those... If not where would one likely find one? thanks Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > Your power is already highly conditioned by the AC to DC power supply built into your laptop.  You laptop wouldn't be able to operate if it wasn't.  So an additional AC conditioner or higher quality inverter on the front end to your power supply won't get you much in the way of solving your problem. > > The problem is with feedback in the ground or common, which isn't so well conditioned with capacitors and opamps.  It is conditioned, just not so much and even less so at the speaker jack since most just dump to common.  Anything with a clock cycle on it has much more conditioning to minimize backfeed from ground. A simple solution is to get a ground loop conditioner for about 10-15 bucks US and hook in between your speakers and your computer jack. > > This will isolate out the 50-60Hz hum you hear from your speakers. > > Most of the problems seen in noise effects in modern or current electronics is still due to a general lack of protection on the ground or common sides.  Most of our electronics today are multifunction chips with MOSFET components that are protected on both the supply and ground within its own circuit path: however, outputs, especially audio, are typically just dumped to common without much if any conditioning.  By conditioning I mean using operational amplifiers, capacitors, diodes and resistors to clean up signals and chip supply voltages. > The common leg is just the wild wild west of electronic noise.  For any attached output devices, like speakers, just turn to ground isolation to solve many spurious problems. > > > > > --- On Sat, 12/10/11, GP wrote: > > From: GP > Subject: [origamiboats] Music lovers... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, December 10, 2011, 7:38 PM > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Nothing like some music while on the hook in a quiet anchorage. Lately I am increasingly aware of speaker hum. I have Logi Tech speakers consisting of a woofer and 2 smaller speakers plugged into my notebook computer by a single jack. The computer is plugged into an inverter. If the music is loud the hum is tolerable but not at lower volumes. Is there a fix for this? > > > > thanks.. > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27211|27211|2011-12-14 09:30:04|Pierre|replating origami hull?|I know that if the preparation for the paint and if there is enough paint on/in the hull it is highly unlikely that corrosion will cause damage severe enough that replating is needed. But if you get hit by a tanker or something else that causes a big dent in your origami hull like this ( click here for picture ), is it possible to replate that part of the hull? Pierre [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27212|27171|2011-12-14 19:15:49|Ben Okopnik|Re: Music lovers...|On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 03:07:26PM -0800, will jones wrote: > You are correct on much of this and really most of the items that are partially correct are not worth the pain of discourse for the group.  Please keep in mind I was just generalizing for community at large and nothing I said was misleading, incorrect, nor improperly applied. We never did establish what a "ground loop conditioner" might be - as I'd mentioned, Google brings up nothing relevant. Personally, I can't imagine what - other than a proper ground - could cure a bad ground or "condition" it. A ground is the "sink" - the return point for all the voltage in the system. If it is not sinking the return voltage, including random broad-spectrum signals - a.k.a. noise - then you have a bad ground, The solution for that is not to "condition" it but to fix it - i.e., connect a wire (not a circuit of any sort) between your system and a good ground. Half the function of a filter is to short the undesirable frequencies to ground (the other half is to present them with a high series impedance.) If a filter can't short that signal to ground, it doesn't work. If it can, then that signal is gone, and cannot return to the circuit. (Of course, old Ben Franklin confused the source of electrons (negative) with the return side (positive), but no one other than physicists actually cares: the system works as long as you're consistent. So, for our purposes, the ground is indeed the sink.) > I will say a few things for clarification.  The hum,  typically 50 to 60Hz, heard in the analog speakers, is typically a ground loop.  This is because common is not isolated and is coupled with the AC input at the power supply, regardless of whether you are using a wall transformer or not. I agree that the AC is coupled - whether through the power supply or just through lack of good isolation (the point that wild_explorer brought up.) Easy to prevent either one in the design and the manufacturing stage, hard to do after... > I am not sure why you introduced the audio cable issue, I didn't; I was speaking of AC cables, and the effect they have on high-end audio equipment. Sorry I didn't make the connection clearer: to me, the fact that people pay $400 for these, and that nothing like that exists for computer equipment, means that audio equipment is significantly affected by AC-induced noise issues while computer equipment isn't. > however the digital component of the audio system is producing a digital signal into the digital audio converter (DAC) , with the typical analog audio output, from the DAC, in the 20-30milliWatt range rated typically for 16ohms. > > As you undoubtedly know, speakers are analog devices that use a logarithmic scale (decibels). Small but important distinction: speakers are actually linear devices (inductors) - but the way we humans perceive sound is best expressed on the decibel (absolute) scale. I.e., 20dB(a) sounds twice as loud to us as 10dB(a), but the actual power ratio is 10:1. > Interestingly enough, typical computer speakers are rated around 30Watts at 4-6 ohms. 8 ohms is pretty much standard for small speakers. Both 4 and 6 ohm speakers tend to be specialty items. > Sooooo one needs to boost the DAC output roughly 10,000 times to hear them at any reasonable level in the speakers.  Of course this is off the cuff since I haven't corrected for the difference in impedance and the boost isn't actually 10K, at least in a single step. Yeah, 40dB audio amps are a bit uncommon. :) > The major opportunity one has for a consistent hum in the system is the common leg.  Bad audio circuits introduce noticeable interference that is usually more harsh than the hum experienced.  That usually ends up being through the common.  I had a link (now dead unfortunately) for older MSI laptops that experienced this problem. Well, audio is the red-headed stepchild of the laptop world; generally, nobody cares about it, so it wouldn't be too odd to find a laptop with a designed-in bad ground. At that point, though, no filtering would help: you'd need to fix the actual problem. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27213|27171|2011-12-14 19:37:16|j h lean|Re: Music lovers...|If the inverter is modified sine wave type, then it creates a hum ... you need a pure sine wave inverter for music playback. John. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27214|27171|2011-12-14 19:40:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: Music lovers...|On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 04:35:51PM -0800, j h lean wrote: > If the inverter is modified sine wave type, then it creates a hum ... you need a pure sine wave inverter for music playback. Or - given how much decent and relatively cheap car audio equipment is out there - just run it off 12VDC. Guaranteed absence of AC hum problems. :) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27215|27215|2011-12-15 03:27:03|Denis Buggy|Re: Music lovers and red hair|I GRASPED MOST OF YOUR POST HOWEVER THIS HAS ME PUZZLED, WHAT PART OF THE WORLD ARE YOU FROM . Denis Buggy. > the red-headed stepchild of the laptop world; generally, > nobody cares about it, > . > > > Ben > -- > | 27216|27163|2011-12-15 15:00:40|haidan|Re: Stuffing box...|Gary, I've got a lasdrop "gen II" seal on my boat, the theory is the same as the PSS seals but seemed a little more rugged. It's got a heavy wet exhaust hose clamped onto the shaft tube a graphite seal attached to that and then theres a plastic piece you clamp to the shaft with a stainless ring that's pressed into the graphite via a spring. I thought the same thing. that the bellows pipe doing the pushing seemed like a bad idea, but doing i the ether way around made a lot more sense. So far I haven't really had any trouble with it. Well actually, that's not true, I'm in the process of swapping engines and I had gone to bed with the new engine sitting in it's bed but not attached to the shaft, so the shaft could be moved in and out, which take the pressure off the seal. Normally even with nothing in front of it, just the friction will keep the shaft from being pressed forward by the spring , but the stern line must of wrapped it self around the far side of the skeg then came up and when the boat got blown side ways a bit it must of pushed on the prop and in the morning I got woken up by the faint sound of water leaking into the boat. Pretty extraneous circumstances but had that happened when I had gone into town to instead of when I was on board I could of had a decent amount of water aboard, I didn't leave the shaft free to move forward like that any more. Anyway if you're leaning in the direction of a dripless seal I'd recommend one that works like the gen II rather than one with the bellows (which lasdrop also has). The space between the graphite and the shaft is pretty small something that one could jam a strip of yogurt container into if there was a problem. I'm not too worried about any sort of catastrophic failure, though I guess the worst/most likely senario would be if you really tangled your prop and spun the engine around tearing it off it mounts possibly bending or break the shaft, the heavier hose I would think would stand up to more uhm.... abuse and might leave you with much smaller hole to plug and at least something left you could clamp shut.| 27217|27215|2011-12-15 16:49:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: Music lovers and red hair|On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 08:27:11AM -0000, Denis Buggy wrote: > I GRASPED MOST OF YOUR POST HOWEVER THIS HAS ME PUZZLED, > WHAT PART OF THE WORLD ARE YOU FROM . Denis Buggy. [LOL] Oh... dear. Denis, that's genuinely funny - thank you. Given how long I've been writing in international forums, I of all people should have known better thsn to use a regional expression like that... and to get called on using "red-headed stepchild" by an Irishman is just too precious. I'm going to treasure this moment for a while. :))) Denis, I'm in the US, "...like a red-headed stepchild" is a black colloquialism (from the slavery days, I'm pretty sure) that's used to indicate someone who's not only unwanted (the master's child sired on a black woman) but annoying to boot (yep, "red-headed" most likely implies Irish, with all the reputation for pugnaciousness and aggressiveness of the sons of Erin. :) "I'm going to beat you like a red-headed step-child" is a highly-disparaging expression - always used between adults, by the way - that means "I'm going to punish you as if you were a child, and I'm not going to stop because I don't care about you *and* because you're so annoying." It _would_ sound extremely confusing and senseless in Ireland, wouldn't it? :))) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27218|27144|2011-12-15 17:11:07|fencerca|Re: Sandblasting inside the keels?|I will concede that I have not yet built a steel hull boat but I have been a metal worker for forty some years an have poured a couple of keels.Here are a few thoughts on the matter. a- If your material is already showing rust it would be a good idea to sandblast as rust has a habit of feeding on itself given half a chance b- fill the keel as soon as posible aftyer sandblasting as sandblasted material will rust from the humidity in the air almost immediatly c- molten lead will burn off anything you might use to prime the keel up to and including hot dip galvanizing so primiong is pretty much a waste of time d- loose bars of lead will shift over time and this can't be good for stability e- stacking bars in the cavity and applying a tiger torch is inefficient at best and will likely result in a solid layer capping a lot of air spaces. Using the fin as a crucible might be a fine idea but melt the bars into the puddle one bar at a time and it will take much less propane,just be careful not to splash the lead on yourself. e- the more lead you get into the fin ,the more weight and stability you get so tilt the boat so that the fin is vertical when you pour, g- If you get a good weld on the cap immediately after pouring the lead there should be no chance of any moisture inside the cavity and without moisture the is no rust Stan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Roy ... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > > > do you mean by actually melting lead and pour it in the bare hull > > bottom? I have always thought of using lead bars or something > > like that ... > > Yes, that's exactly the method recommended by Brent. Alternatively, lead ingots can be stacked in the keel cavity, and are melted in place by a Tiger Torch or something similar. I guess one advantage would be a lowering of the CG a bit. > > > and  ... the steel plate welded over it ... I like ... but > > wouldn't that compartment rust out later without our knowing it? > > use of Zinc or something like that? > > I don't know. I'm new to this! :-) > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > _____________________________________________ > | 27219|27211|2011-12-15 17:15:12|brentswain38|Re: replating origami hull?|Yes , it is possible, but getting it fair would be tricky, but not impossible. Amidships it would be easy, in the conic ends, a bit more difficult. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > I know that if the preparation for the paint and if there is enough > paint on/in the hull it is highly unlikely that corrosion will cause > damage severe enough that replating is needed. But if you get hit by a > tanker or something else that causes a big dent in your origami hull > like this ( click here for picture > 16-steel-yacht-construction-steelhull.jpg> ), is it possible to > replate that part of the hull? > Pierre > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27220|27163|2011-12-15 17:29:14|brentswain38|Re: Stuffing box...|Tried one once, Found that if a piece of gear was to land on the seal, the water would flood in. I never felt safe leaving the boat, until I switched to a standard stuffing box. It may drip , but will never flood in. I have put a grease hose on my stern tube and fill the stern tube with grease. The grease gun is permanently mounted, and if I get a drip I give it a few more strokes. Only works with harder engine mounts. With super soft engine mounts( a bad idea anyway) the stuffing box heats up too much. No problems in the last 27 years. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Ben... I am leaning in that direction PSS seal. However, I did read on Cruisers Forum that the danger is a "catastrophic" failure of something or another which would not happen with flax for example. Can a PSS unit have a "catastophic" failure? P.S.. I do not know what part of the PSS seal the poster was referring to. > > thanks > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:25:01AM +0100, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > > > > The notorious rubber-brass-nodripper will nearly sink Your fourty-footer well before the pudding while You're dining out, with only a small piece of plastic debris caught/drawn into the rubber dome while "parking" in a not-so-tidy public harbour ... it requires a certain amount of deadpan-humour, learning about "dripless" this way. > > > > Having been shipmates with the PSS shaft seal for nearly 20 years at > > this point, on two different boats, I can report from personal > > experience that I've never seen the slightest amount of pitting on the > > stainless shaft near the graphite "doughnut" of one. I also can't > > imagine anything getting "drawn into" a shaft seal, since that plastic > > debris would somehow have to make its way past the tiny flutes in the > > shaft log (???) - and that would have to happen despite there being zero > > water flow into that seal. In fact, I recall a bit of water pouring out > > of the shaft tube when I last pulled the shaft despite the boat having > > sat on land for most of a week, which argues for that area between the > > shaft seal and the PSS being almost water-tight. (And no, it wasn't > > bilge water; steel boats tend to have dry bilges. Another benefit. :) > > > > If someone managed to make a bunch of microscopic, self-powered, > > shaft-seal-seeking pieces of plastic, I suppose it would be possible... > > but for the moment, I'm a big fan of having had almost 20 years in which > > I've never had to pack, repack, adjust the drip rate, or lie in > > contorted positions to do any of the above on a regular basis. Those who > > prefer other approaches are welcome to them; I've found what works for > > me. > > > > > > Ben > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > > | 27221|27163|2011-12-15 17:30:46|brentswain38|Re: Stuffing box...|Another advantage of a stuffing box is it lets you use super tough, wire reinforced hose. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Tried one once, Found that if a piece of gear was to land on the seal, the water would flood in. I never felt safe leaving the boat, until I switched to a standard stuffing box. It may drip , but will never flood in. I have put a grease hose on my stern tube and fill the stern tube with grease. The grease gun is permanently mounted, and if I get a drip I give it a few more strokes. Only works with harder engine mounts. With super soft engine mounts( a bad idea anyway) the stuffing box heats up too much. No problems in the last 27 years. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > Ben... I am leaning in that direction PSS seal. However, I did read on Cruisers Forum that the danger is a "catastrophic" failure of something or another which would not happen with flax for example. Can a PSS unit have a "catastophic" failure? P.S.. I do not know what part of the PSS seal the poster was referring to. > > > > thanks > > Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:25:01AM +0100, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > > > > > > The notorious rubber-brass-nodripper will nearly sink Your fourty-footer well before the pudding while You're dining out, with only a small piece of plastic debris caught/drawn into the rubber dome while "parking" in a not-so-tidy public harbour ... it requires a certain amount of deadpan-humour, learning about "dripless" this way. > > > > > > Having been shipmates with the PSS shaft seal for nearly 20 years at > > > this point, on two different boats, I can report from personal > > > experience that I've never seen the slightest amount of pitting on the > > > stainless shaft near the graphite "doughnut" of one. I also can't > > > imagine anything getting "drawn into" a shaft seal, since that plastic > > > debris would somehow have to make its way past the tiny flutes in the > > > shaft log (???) - and that would have to happen despite there being zero > > > water flow into that seal. In fact, I recall a bit of water pouring out > > > of the shaft tube when I last pulled the shaft despite the boat having > > > sat on land for most of a week, which argues for that area between the > > > shaft seal and the PSS being almost water-tight. (And no, it wasn't > > > bilge water; steel boats tend to have dry bilges. Another benefit. :) > > > > > > If someone managed to make a bunch of microscopic, self-powered, > > > shaft-seal-seeking pieces of plastic, I suppose it would be possible... > > > but for the moment, I'm a big fan of having had almost 20 years in which > > > I've never had to pack, repack, adjust the drip rate, or lie in > > > contorted positions to do any of the above on a regular basis. Those who > > > prefer other approaches are welcome to them; I've found what works for > > > me. > > > > > > > > > Ben > > > -- > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > > > > > | 27222|27144|2011-12-16 01:04:11|Roy|Re: Sandblasting inside the keels?|Yeah ... am keeping this info in files for sure ... appreciate it --- On Tue, 12/6/11, fencerca wrote: From: fencerca Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside the keels? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 6, 2011, 9:28 AM   I will concede that I have not yet built a steel hull boat but I have been a metal worker for forty some years an have poured a couple of keels.Here are a few thoughts on the matter. a- If your material is already showing rust it would be a good idea to sandblast as rust has a habit of feeding on itself given half a chance b- fill the keel as soon as posible aftyer sandblasting as sandblasted material will rust from the humidity in the air almost immediatly c- molten lead will burn off anything you might use to prime the keel up to and including hot dip galvanizing so primiong is pretty much a waste of time d- loose bars of lead will shift over time and this can't be good for stability e- stacking bars in the cavity and applying a tiger torch is inefficient at best and will likely result in a solid layer capping a lot of air spaces. Using the fin as a crucible might be a fine idea but melt the bars into the puddle one bar at a time and it will take much less propane,just be careful not to splash the lead on yourself. e- the more lead you get into the fin ,the more weight and stability you get so tilt the boat so that the fin is vertical when you pour, g- If you get a good weld on the cap immediately after pouring the lead there should be no chance of any moisture inside the cavity and without moisture the is no rust Stan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Roy ... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > > > do you mean by actually melting lead and pour it in the bare hull > > bottom? I have always thought of using lead bars or something > > like that ... > > Yes, that's exactly the method recommended by Brent. Alternatively, lead ingots can be stacked in the keel cavity, and are melted in place by a Tiger Torch or something similar. I guess one advantage would be a lowering of the CG a bit. > > > and  ... the steel plate welded over it ... I like ... but > > wouldn't that compartment rust out later without our knowing it? > > use of Zinc or something like that? > > I don't know. I'm new to this! :-) > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > _____________________________________________ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27223|22|2011-12-16 14:52:07|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./229seq1-pic1.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Cutting plate. Welding the cap rail and longitudinals. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229seq1-pic1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 27224|27224|2011-12-16 16:31:31|brentswain38|Fukashima debris field|I just heard that the debris filed from the Fukashima tsunami is starting to arrive on the west coast of Vancouver Island. The debris field is estimated to be the size of Ontario, and will be coming ashore for years. It contains everything from houses to steel fish boats etc. The spread depends on the windage of the items. I don't think I would want to be at sea in any boat which was not made out of metal. I think we can expect a few cruisers to go missing at sea. It will continue to circle the North Pacific for years, returning to the BC coast from time to time. Incidentally, Fitter Mike, who tried to screw Alex out of a fair price for his boat , is heading out into the Fukashima debris field in a plastic boat, with neither frames nor floors. I can picture him clinging to a plastic jerry can, after hitting something hard, and tearing the bottom out of his boat , wishing he had given Alex a fair price for his steel boat. He said origami boats are not strong enough, then bought a plastic boat to cruise the debris field in. Amazing how self punishing some folks can be.| 27225|27224|2011-12-16 16:49:06|Matt Malone|Re: Fukashima debris field|Intentionally going cruising in a debris field.... Brent, I think Darwin said something about that.... Those fishing boats floating out there... would they be made of high grade steel and aluminium, and just in need of less water in them to float a lot better ? I once saw a man ride a 5 ton flapping sheet of steel 60 feet long. I am sure there is someone around where who is brave enough to stick a hose in somewhere in the hull of a nice one and start pumping air in. Is that what Fitter Mike is planning ? Myself, I would like a 200 meter hose with a quick disconnect and float on the near end. And naturally, a steel boat. Is he going after hardware or the entire boat ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 21:31:28 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Fukashima debris field I just heard that the debris filed from the Fukashima tsunami is starting to arrive on the west coast of Vancouver Island. The debris field is estimated to be the size of Ontario, and will be coming ashore for years. It contains everything from houses to steel fish boats etc. The spread depends on the windage of the items. I don't think I would want to be at sea in any boat which was not made out of metal. I think we can expect a few cruisers to go missing at sea. It will continue to circle the North Pacific for years, returning to the BC coast from time to time. Incidentally, Fitter Mike, who tried to screw Alex out of a fair price for his boat , is heading out into the Fukashima debris field in a plastic boat, with neither frames nor floors. I can picture him clinging to a plastic jerry can, after hitting something hard, and tearing the bottom out of his boat , wishing he had given Alex a fair price for his steel boat. He said origami boats are not strong enough, then bought a plastic boat to cruise the debris field in. Amazing how self punishing some folks can be. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27226|27163|2011-12-16 22:06:09|mkriley48|Re: Stuffing box...|in the 60's there was a regular stuffing box that had a ceramic face seal on the bronze stuffing box and a carbon one around the shaft pressing onto the ceramic one just like a water pump. worked great and could not fail catastrophically. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Another advantage of a stuffing box is it lets you use super tough, wire reinforced hose. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Tried one once, Found that if a piece of gear was to land on the seal, the water would flood in. I never felt safe leaving the boat, until I switched to a standard stuffing box. It may drip , but will never flood in. I have put a grease hose on my stern tube and fill the stern tube with grease. The grease gun is permanently mounted, and if I get a drip I give it a few more strokes. Only works with harder engine mounts. With super soft engine mounts( a bad idea anyway) the stuffing box heats up too much. No problems in the last 27 years. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > > > Ben... I am leaning in that direction PSS seal. However, I did read on Cruisers Forum that the danger is a "catastrophic" failure of something or another which would not happen with flax for example. Can a PSS unit have a "catastophic" failure? P.S.. I do not know what part of the PSS seal the poster was referring to. > > > > > > thanks > > > Gary > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:25:01AM +0100, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The notorious rubber-brass-nodripper will nearly sink Your fourty-footer well before the pudding while You're dining out, with only a small piece of plastic debris caught/drawn into the rubber dome while "parking" in a not-so-tidy public harbour ... it requires a certain amount of deadpan-humour, learning about "dripless" this way. > > > > > > > > Having been shipmates with the PSS shaft seal for nearly 20 years at > > > > this point, on two different boats, I can report from personal > > > > experience that I've never seen the slightest amount of pitting on the > > > > stainless shaft near the graphite "doughnut" of one. I also can't > > > > imagine anything getting "drawn into" a shaft seal, since that plastic > > > > debris would somehow have to make its way past the tiny flutes in the > > > > shaft log (???) - and that would have to happen despite there being zero > > > > water flow into that seal. In fact, I recall a bit of water pouring out > > > > of the shaft tube when I last pulled the shaft despite the boat having > > > > sat on land for most of a week, which argues for that area between the > > > > shaft seal and the PSS being almost water-tight. (And no, it wasn't > > > > bilge water; steel boats tend to have dry bilges. Another benefit. :) > > > > > > > > If someone managed to make a bunch of microscopic, self-powered, > > > > shaft-seal-seeking pieces of plastic, I suppose it would be possible... > > > > but for the moment, I'm a big fan of having had almost 20 years in which > > > > I've never had to pack, repack, adjust the drip rate, or lie in > > > > contorted positions to do any of the above on a regular basis. Those who > > > > prefer other approaches are welcome to them; I've found what works for > > > > me. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ben > > > > -- > > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > > > > > > > > > | 27227|22|2011-12-17 07:49:07|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./229seq2-pic2.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Folding the half hull. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229seq2-pic2.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 27228|27224|2011-12-17 13:20:24|wild_explorer|Re: Fukashima debris field|Debris field tracker http://deepseanews.com/2011/10/how-scientists-found-debris-from-japanese-tsunami-found-700-miles-off-midway/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just heard that the debris filed from the Fukashima tsunami is starting to arrive on the west coast of Vancouver Island. The debris field is estimated to be the size of Ontario, and will be coming ashore for years. > It contains everything from houses to steel fish boats etc. The spread depends on the windage of the items. I don't think I would want to be at sea in any boat which was not made out of metal. I think we can expect a few cruisers to go missing at sea. It will continue to circle the North Pacific for years, returning to the BC coast from time to time. | 27229|27224|2011-12-17 16:03:49|brentswain38|Re: Fukashima debris field|Some will no doubt be salvageable and claimable. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Intentionally going cruising in a debris field.... Brent, I think Darwin said something > about that.... > > Those fishing boats floating out there... would they be made of high grade steel > and aluminium, and just in need of less water in them to float a lot better ? > I once saw a man ride a 5 ton flapping sheet of steel 60 feet long. I am sure > there is someone around where who is brave enough to stick a hose in somewhere > in the hull of a nice one and start pumping air in. > > Is that what Fitter Mike is planning ? Myself, I would like a 200 meter hose with a quick > disconnect and float on the near end. And naturally, a steel boat. Is he going after > hardware or the entire boat ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 21:31:28 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Fukashima debris field > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just heard that the debris filed from the Fukashima tsunami is starting to arrive on the west coast of Vancouver Island. The debris field is estimated to be the size of Ontario, and will be coming ashore for years. > > It contains everything from houses to steel fish boats etc. The spread depends on the windage of the items. I don't think I would want to be at sea in any boat which was not made out of metal. I think we can expect a few cruisers to go missing at sea. It will continue to circle the North Pacific for years, returning to the BC coast from time to time. > > Incidentally, Fitter Mike, who tried to screw Alex out of a fair price for his boat , is heading out into the Fukashima debris field in a plastic boat, with neither frames nor floors. I can picture him clinging to a plastic jerry can, after hitting something hard, and tearing the bottom out of his boat , wishing he had given Alex a fair price for his steel boat. He said origami boats are not strong enough, then bought a plastic boat to cruise the debris field in. > > Amazing how self punishing some folks can be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27230|27211|2011-12-17 16:05:12|Barney Treadway|Re: replating origami hull?|If anyone has any doubts on hull construction material, that picture is worth a thousand words. What other vessel would still be floating? www.ecomshare.com Pierre wrote: >I know that if the preparation for the paint and if there is enough >paint on/in the hull it is highly unlikely that corrosion will cause >damage severe enough that replating is needed. But if you get hit by a >tanker or something else that causes a big dent in your origami hull >like this ( click here for picture >16-steel-yacht-construction-steelhull.jpg> ), is it possible to >replate that part of the hull? >Pierre > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27231|22|2011-12-17 17:57:45|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./229seq3-pic3.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Starting on the internals. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229seq3-pic3.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 27232|22|2011-12-18 13:37:30|wild_explorer|3D Origamiboat modeling (Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats)|yvesmariedetanton, the position of the lower set of longitudinal stringers does not look right. As I understand, stringers should follow corresponding waterlines' or buttocks' 3D cuts and overlap visible stressed area at the bow (to push it outward). Looks like using so many transverse reinforcements at the bow (ahead of keels) is unnecessary as well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats > group. > > File : /Imagiro Boats./229seq3-pic3.jpg > Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton > Description : Starting on the internals. > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229seq3-pic3.jpg > | 27233|27233|2011-12-18 14:02:50|sunbear|DIY Solar Panels|A friend is building panels to use on his RV in Alberta (where they actually have sun)using info from this site and solar cells purchased at Ebay. Haven't priced out the enire cost to see if actually cost effective. Anybody done this before? http://solartechtown.com/how-to-build-a-solar-panel/ This is the Ebay cell section. http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=solar+cells&_sacat=See-All-Categories A Merry Christmas and great New Year to everyone. MarkH| 27234|22|2011-12-18 17:13:12|Tantonyachts@aol.com|Re: 3D Origamiboat modeling (Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats)|Hello. Works forr me. using so many transverse reinforcements at the bow (ahead of keels) is unnecessary as well. --- In origamiboats -----Original Message----- From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats Sent: Sun, Dec 18, 2011 1:37 pm Subject: [origamiboats] 3D Origamiboat modeling (Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats) yvesmariedetanton, the position of the lower set of longitudinal stringers does not look right. As I understand, stringers should follow corresponding waterlines' or buttocks' 3D cuts and overlap visible stressed area at the bow (to push it outward). Looks like using so many transverse reinforcements at the bow (ahead of keels) is unnecessary as well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats > group. > > File : /Imagiro Boats./229seq3-pic3.jpg > Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton > Description : Starting on the internals. > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229seq3-pic3.jpg > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27235|27215|2011-12-18 20:00:30|Denis Buggy|Re: Music lovers and red hair|DEAR ALL I would not continue this thread normally however it could be interpreted that what was said by Ben had substance . if you take Bens statement that " red headed most likely means Irish " and "the masters child sired on a black woman" A brief examination of the facts will show that 9 out of 10 indentured servants in the US in the 1700s were Irish -- in Joe Kennedy's ( father of John F Kennedy) auto biography he states his grandfather when he arrived in the 1800s to America heard a black slave complain "my master treats me like a common Irishman". the Irish did not cross the class gap until the early 1900s when many young Irish went to college for the first time in the US this was largely made possible by their mothers who were nannies and house servants to the rich giving their lives to advance their children to another social level -- these people are our greatest warriors in our history of great warriors -they secured the greatest freedom by supplying the greatest weapon - education. if you google TO HELL OR BARBADOS you will come across a book about some red headed children they were amongst the 50,000peple transported as slaves from Ireland to this place -- there were far more sent else where -- however what makes this different was that after hundreds of thousands had been butchered in Ireland and transported to all corners of the earth it still did not subdue the Irish -- there fore a new method was tried -thousands of small children were forcibly taken from their parents and they were made watch as they were put on ships from Barbados with the instructions nailed to the mast by Cromwell that the three to six year old children were to be " FOR THE USE OF THE NATIVES AS THEY SEE FIT " it was the greatest act of mass pedophilia in the world and it was designed to terrify a population which it did . maybe Ben the unwanted redheaded child amongst the black people has another meaning . Denis Buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Music lovers and red hair On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 08:27:11AM -0000, Denis Buggy wrote: > I GRASPED MOST OF YOUR POST HOWEVER THIS HAS ME PUZZLED, > WHAT PART OF THE WORLD ARE YOU FROM . Denis Buggy. [LOL] Oh... dear. Denis, that's genuinely funny - thank you. Given how long I've been writing in international forums, I of all people should have known better thsn to use a regional expression like that... and to get called on using "red-headed stepchild" by an Irishman is just too precious. I'm going to treasure this moment for a while. :))) Denis, I'm in the US, "...like a red-headed stepchild" is a black colloquialism (from the slavery days, I'm pretty sure) that's used to indicate someone who's not only unwanted (the master's child sired on a black woman) but annoying to boot (yep, "red-headed" most likely implies Irish, with all the reputation for pugnaciousness and aggressiveness of the sons of Erin. :) "I'm going to beat you like a red-headed step-child" is a highly-disparaging expression - always used between adults, by the way - that means "I'm going to punish you as if you were a child, and I'm not going to stop because I don't care about you *and* because you're so annoying." It _would_ sound extremely confusing and senseless in Ireland, wouldn't it? :))) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27236|27215|2011-12-18 20:36:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: Music lovers and red hair|On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 01:00:45AM -0000, Denis Buggy wrote: > > I would not continue this thread normally however it could be > interpreted that what was said by Ben had substance . Oh, c'mon, Denis; stop the excuses. Anything I say to you acts like a red flag to a bull, and off you go, blindly charging and snorting - regardless of whether you have anything to say or not. In this case, it's a pointless diatribe about the tribulations of the Irish. Dude... I'm a Russian Jew, a first-generation immigrant. I've lived through shit that would turn your hair white. You _can't_ play misery poker with me and win - not that I would play in the first place. I made the effort to answer your question to the best of my knowledge and ability, because I thought that you were asking for information. Instead, you were looking for a fight. Fine; I've adjusted my "Denis filter", and won't be making that mistake again. As to the matter of the question itself - it is possible that I'm mistaken; it happens occasionally. It doesn't mean that I hate the Irish, or think that they're evil slave owners or whatever. Get an effin' grip and grow the hell up, Denis: not everything in the world is intended as an insult, or aimed at you or your precious sensitive spots. I will grant you that I didn't dot every 'i' and cross every 't', but a person with normal reading comprehension would see that I didn't say "THE IRISH RAPED ALL THE BLACK WOMEN" or anything like that - although I did talk about "the master's child" and "sons of Erin" in one sentence, and didn't write seventeen paragraphs of apologetic bullshit because I dared to do so. Feel free to play the victim and look for sympathy all you want because of it. I've seen that movie, and it was boring the first time out. Incidentally: that kind of sentence structure is known as "independent clauses", because - hey, here's a clue!!! - they neither imply nor depend on each other. Maybe learning to read well would be a boon to your education? Just sayin'. > maybe Ben the unwanted redheaded child amongst the black people has > another meaning . Ya know, Denis... maybe if you had started with that, there would be something to talk about, and maybe we could have found agreement on some mutual topic. As it is, you've been a graceless, clueless git, and I'll be damned if I ever make the mistake of answering a question of yours ever again. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27237|22|2011-12-18 20:59:25|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /229seq4-pic4.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : More internals. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/229seq4-pic4.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 27238|27224|2011-12-19 02:25:37|David Frantz|Re: Fukashima debris field|I wonder if any of those boats are recoverable? If so who would have legal rights to them. Sent from my iPad On Dec 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > I just heard that the debris filed from the Fukashima tsunami is starting to arrive on the west coast of Vancouver Island. The debris field is estimated to be the size of Ontario, and will be coming ashore for years. > It contains everything from houses to steel fish boats etc. The spread depends on the windage of the items. I don't think I would want to be at sea in any boat which was not made out of metal. I think we can expect a few cruisers to go missing at sea. It will continue to circle the North Pacific for years, returning to the BC coast from time to time. > Incidentally, Fitter Mike, who tried to screw Alex out of a fair price for his boat , is heading out into the Fukashima debris field in a plastic boat, with neither frames nor floors. I can picture him clinging to a plastic jerry can, after hitting something hard, and tearing the bottom out of his boat , wishing he had given Alex a fair price for his steel boat. He said origami boats are not strong enough, then bought a plastic boat to cruise the debris field in. > Amazing how self punishing some folks can be. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27239|27239|2011-12-19 10:54:13|Alan|rust proofing inside of skeg|I was wondering how you would rust proof the inside of a skeg used for cooling. Also how much of the skeg is needed for coolong. Do you seal off the area below the stentube? It seems to me that whatever you did to the steel before fabrication, welding the skeg together would create seams vulnerable to rusting. The area below the sterntube would be almost impossible to clean after fabrication, but I would think that that area would also be where the coolant would be the coolest. Does the coolant used have enough rust fighting properties to take care of this problem?| 27240|27224|2011-12-19 12:21:21|Matt Malone|Re: Fukashima debris field|This is the original file http://iprc.soest.hawaii.edu/users/nikolai/2011/Pacific_Islands/Simulation_of_Debris_from_March_11_2011_Japan_tsunami.gif It shows the bulk of the material taking much longer to reach BC, about 2.5 years, but that after 2 years, the center of the largest concentration of debris will be between Vancouver and Hawaii. Still I am sure the lighter stuff will be seen sooner. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 18:20:22 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fukashima debris field Debris field tracker http://deepseanews.com/2011/10/how-scientists-found-debris-from-japanese-tsunami-found-700-miles-off-midway/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just heard that the debris filed from the Fukashima tsunami is starting to arrive on the west coast of Vancouver Island. The debris field is estimated to be the size of Ontario, and will be coming ashore for years. > It contains everything from houses to steel fish boats etc. The spread depends on the windage of the items. I don't think I would want to be at sea in any boat which was not made out of metal. I think we can expect a few cruisers to go missing at sea. It will continue to circle the North Pacific for years, returning to the BC coast from time to time. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27241|27211|2011-12-19 15:13:16|brentswain38|Re: replating origami hull?|Makes me wonder how many more lives would be saved, and the number of 'Missing at sea" cases ( including the Sleavin family) could be drastically reduced, if designers and builders would do more work on making steel boats more affordable, instead of trying to make them trendier, and more complex and expensive, to pad their own nests. Far too many designers and builders, completely refuse to give any effort at dealing with the two biggest issues facing most cruisers, time and money, forcing people to put their lives and that of their families at risk , by making flimsy plastic boats the only ones they can afford. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Barney Treadway wrote: > > If anyone has any doubts on hull construction material, that picture is worth a thousand words. What other vessel would still be floating? > > www.ecomshare.com > > Pierre wrote: > > >I know that if the preparation for the paint and if there is enough > >paint on/in the hull it is highly unlikely that corrosion will cause > >damage severe enough that replating is needed. But if you get hit by a > >tanker or something else that causes a big dent in your origami hull > >like this ( click here for picture > > >16-steel-yacht-construction-steelhull.jpg> ), is it possible to > >replate that part of the hull? > >Pierre > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 27242|22|2011-12-19 15:19:34|brentswain38|3D Origamiboat modeling (Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats)|Are those little triangles floors, or tank baffles . If so,the tank top constitutes a very solid fully welded bulkhead, far stronger than any stringers. If not, then the tankage would be needlessly higher in the hull and offer far less structural strength to the hull, and the huge number of such floors add very little. I like to run a longitudinal into the front and back end of the keel, the keel itself constituting the strength between them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > yvesmariedetanton, the position of the lower set of longitudinal stringers does not look right. As I understand, stringers should follow corresponding waterlines' or buttocks' 3D cuts and overlap visible stressed area at the bow (to push it outward). > > Looks like using so many transverse reinforcements at the bow (ahead of keels) is unnecessary as well. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats > > group. > > > > File : /Imagiro Boats./229seq3-pic3.jpg > > Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton > > Description : Starting on the internals. > > > > You can access this file at the URL: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229seq3-pic3.jpg > > > | 27243|27211|2011-12-19 15:22:19|Ben Okopnik|Re: replating origami hull?|On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:12:51PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Makes me wonder how many more lives would be saved, and the number of 'Missing at sea" cases ( including the Sleavin family) could be drastically reduced, if designers and builders would do more work on making steel boats more affordable, instead of trying to make them trendier, and more complex and expensive, to pad their own nests. > Far too many designers and builders, completely refuse to give any effort at dealing with the two biggest issues facing most cruisers, time and money, forcing people to put their lives and that of their families at risk , by making flimsy plastic boats the only ones they can afford. That's one of the places where making a buck is held as being sacred, but peoples' lives aren't worth anything. What you have is a bunch of status-hungry buyers who are demanding cheap, flashy-looking boats so they can show off in front of their status-hungry friends. Since most boat buyers have no clue of what constitutes a good boat, they buy what's being built - most of the market can't be wrong, right? - and the quality builders are left out in the cold. As more and more of the latter shut down, more and more of the market gets taken over by cheap, sea-worthless crap (does the name of "Hunter" come to mind?) - a classic case of "bad money driving out good money" - and after a while, anyone who *wants* a quality boat can't find one. Thanks for being out there and making your designs available, Brent. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27244|27239|2011-12-19 15:27:07|brentswain38|Re: rust proofing inside of skeg|Anti freeze helps a lot, but a friend I built a boat for in 1980 found a bit of rusting in his keel coolers, so added water soluble machining oil to his coolant, and totally eliminated the rusting. It now looks oily. He said it doesn't take much, a few table spoons of it does the trick. Too much reduces the cooling effect , I'm told. I run the coolant pickup pipe alongside the sterntube, to pick up the coolest water form the bottom of the skeg . I leave the bottom of the skeg off, until I have done all other metal work on it, so I can tap the skeg and make sure all slag and debris is out , before welding the bottom on. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" wrote: > > I was wondering how you would rust proof the inside of a skeg used for cooling. Also how much of the skeg is needed for coolong. Do you seal off the area below the stentube? It seems to me that whatever you did to the steel before fabrication, welding the skeg together would create seams vulnerable to rusting. The area below the sterntube would be almost impossible to clean after fabrication, but I would think that that area would also be where the coolant would be the coolest. Does the coolant used have enough rust fighting properties to take care of this problem? > | 27245|27233|2011-12-19 15:40:18|scott|Re: DIY Solar Panels|You can buy solar laminates. Already assembled into panels just not frame or electrical connection box on them from sunelec.com for 58c a watt. :) hard to beat that. You have to buy min order of 10 of them though.. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sunbear" wrote: > > A friend is building panels to use on his RV in Alberta (where they actually have sun)using info from this site and solar cells purchased at Ebay. Haven't priced out the enire cost to see if actually cost effective. Anybody done this before? http://solartechtown.com/how-to-build-a-solar-panel/ > This is the Ebay cell section. > http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=solar+cells&_sacat=See-All-Categories > A Merry Christmas and great New Year to everyone. MarkH > | 27246|27211|2011-12-19 15:41:48|brentswain38|Re: replating origami hull?|Depends where you are. Every ten degrees rise in temperature doubles the rate of corrosion. However, I once read of someone who had bare steel behind his head which was rusting and could never be got dry enough to paint. In the tropics, it took 15 years to rust thru 3/16th plate. I think if I had the "Gringo" experience to deal with, I would first try straighten it out as much as possible with hydraulic jacks, then deal with the remaining bent parts, replacing only them. It would take a lot of temporary pieces of plate on edge, across any seams, to keep things in line while welding. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > I know that if the preparation for the paint and if there is enough > paint on/in the hull it is highly unlikely that corrosion will cause > damage severe enough that replating is needed. But if you get hit by a > tanker or something else that causes a big dent in your origami hull > like this ( click here for picture > 16-steel-yacht-construction-steelhull.jpg> ), is it possible to > replate that part of the hull? > Pierre > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27247|27211|2011-12-19 17:35:11|Matt Malone|Steel hull and collision avoidance|I just read about the Sleavin case. The Melinda Lee, a 47 foot Compass fibreglass boat, mid-cockpit, weighting 14 tons -- that is a pretty heavily built boat. Apparently it was t-boned at night in a storm by a freighter doing 9 knots, 30 miles from New Zealand. Apparently the boat was spun, and soon after rolled and sank. There was apparently no time to grab the EPIRB after the collision. One dead in the collision, 2 lost from a lifeboat hours later, and one survivor, rescued about 60 hours after the collision. The survivor says the freighter returned, looked at them, and left them for dead. Their boat might not have been a lot different from mine... can't tell if it was solid or cored hull, but the ballast was encapsulated, like my boat. Now, not disputing the toughness of steel, but, 60 hours is a long time (more than one sleep). A small amount of damage might sink you. If the boat floats for 5 minutes and people are able, one might activate their EPIRB reliably. Then one waits -- a pretty good situation, considering. I consider this a possible outcome in any boat in a collision with a much larger, heavier boat. Had they reached the EPIRB, it might have been one lost, three survive. So I have been investigating other lines of safety. I have been reading about AIS receivers (that receive signals sent out by large ships providing location, course, speed and name, of the ship) now integrated into radios: $330-$400: Standard Horizon Matrix GX2150 Marine VHF/DSC transceiver radio and AIS receiver http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited.com/Standard+Horizon+GX2150+Matrix+AIS.html Negatives: Yes, this radio needs a NEMA-transmitting GPS to use the collision features, and yes, as far as I can tell, it does not output AIS data as NEMA sentences -- not my preference. Positives: As a receiver, the power requirements (as well as the $ requirements) are a lot smaller than radar. AIS will not find the rocks, but, I want it as a minder for the things that move. My decision: Not ready to commit, but looking. I have some work to do on my boat, but I will be checking again on what is affordable when it is time to put my boat in the water. If I can get an AIS transceiver by that time, for cheap, I will do it. If I cannot then it will be an AIS receiver, interfaced to a laptop, recording paths and computing separations etc. Some method to proactively avoid collisions seems like a good thing, especially since the radio shown here is only about double the cost of a regular VHF radio right now, and, about the cost of 4 tanks of gas in my truck, right now. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:12:51 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: replating origami hull? Makes me wonder how many more lives would be saved, and the number of 'Missing at sea" cases ( including the Sleavin family) could be drastically reduced, if designers and builders would do more work on making steel boats more affordable, instead of trying to make them trendier, and more complex and expensive, to pad their own nests. Far too many designers and builders, completely refuse to give any effort at dealing with the two biggest issues facing most cruisers, time and money, forcing people to put their lives and that of their families at risk , by making flimsy plastic boats the only ones they can afford. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Barney Treadway wrote: > > If anyone has any doubts on hull construction material, that picture is worth a thousand words. What other vessel would still be floating? > > www.ecomshare.com > > Pierre wrote: > > >I know that if the preparation for the paint and if there is enough > >paint on/in the hull it is highly unlikely that corrosion will cause > >damage severe enough that replating is needed. But if you get hit by a > >tanker or something else that causes a big dent in your origami hull > >like this ( click here for picture > > >16-steel-yacht-construction-steelhull.jpg> ), is it possible to > >replate that part of the hull? > >Pierre > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27248|27211|2011-12-19 18:36:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|As far as I know, all AIS receivers need a gps input unless it is already built in to the unit. This shouldn't be any problem since most gps receivers should have an NMEA output. The Standard Horizon AIS/VHF has NMEA outputs that can go to almost any plotter or AIS. I love radar and AIS but they are really different animals. Both have their place. The electronics should always be the last thing you buy since prices come down and the capabilities go up. The Sleavin story is a good read but sobering. I didn't want my wife to read it since she worries enough as it is..... http://www.amazon.com/Ten-Degrees-Reckoning-Story-Survival/dp/B003VWC4X0/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1 Cheers, Paul| 27249|27211|2011-12-19 20:43:58|David Frantz|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|Hi Matt; Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. The other thing here is the need to have a plan for fast ditching at sea. That is a bag you can grab as you are rolling out of your bunk with the required survival gear. Part of that gear should be a number of radios to establish communications. The only thing here I really question is the part about the freighter returning and looking at them and then leaving them for dead. If that really did happen then somebody should be held accountable. The problem is people often assume that because they can see you, you can see them. I'm not sure we will ever know exactly what transpired on the freighter but the fact that they returned seems to indicate they where putting in effort to figure out what happened. As always two sides to any story. Lastly if there where 4 people on board why was nobody standing watch? It is one thing to have no standing watch if you are single handing a boat or even trying to get by with two, but with 4 on board there should have been somebody in the cockpit to deal with this. Dave On Dec 19, 2011, at 5:35 PM000, Matt Malone wrote: > > > I just read about the Sleavin case. The Melinda Lee, a 47 foot Compass fibreglass boat, > mid-cockpit, weighting 14 tons -- that is a pretty heavily built boat. Apparently it was > t-boned at night in a storm by a freighter doing 9 knots, 30 miles from New Zealand. > Apparently the boat was spun, and soon after rolled and sank. There was apparently > no time to grab the EPIRB after the collision. One dead in the collision, 2 lost from a > lifeboat hours later, and one survivor, rescued about 60 hours after the collision. The > survivor says the freighter returned, looked at them, and left them for dead. > > Their boat might not have been a lot different from mine... can't tell if it was solid or > cored hull, but the ballast was encapsulated, like my boat. Now, not disputing the > toughness of steel, but, 60 hours is a long time (more than one sleep). A small amount > of damage might sink you. If the boat floats for 5 minutes and people are able, one > might activate their EPIRB reliably. Then one waits -- a pretty good situation, > considering. I consider this a possible outcome in any boat in a collision with a much > larger, heavier boat. Had they reached the EPIRB, it might have been one lost, > three survive. > > So I have been investigating other lines of safety. I have been reading about AIS > receivers (that receive signals sent out by large ships providing location, course, > speed and name, of the ship) now integrated into radios: > > $330-$400: Standard Horizon Matrix GX2150 Marine VHF/DSC transceiver radio and AIS receiver > > http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited.com/Standard+Horizon+GX2150+Matrix+AIS.html > > Negatives: > Yes, this radio needs a NEMA-transmitting GPS to use the collision features, and yes, as far > > as I can tell, it does not output AIS data as NEMA sentences -- not my preference. > > Positives: > As a receiver, the power requirements (as well as the $ requirements) are a lot smaller than > radar. AIS will not find the rocks, but, I want it as a minder for the things that move. > > My decision: Not ready to commit, but looking. > > I have some work to do on my boat, but I will be checking again on what is affordable when > it is time to put my boat in the water. If I can get an AIS transceiver by that time, for cheap, > I will do it. If I cannot then it will be an AIS receiver, interfaced to a laptop, recording paths > and computing separations etc. > > Some method to proactively avoid collisions seems like a good thing, especially since the > radio shown here is only about double the cost of a regular VHF radio right now, and, > about the cost of 4 tanks of gas in my truck, right now. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:12:51 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: replating origami hull? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Makes me wonder how many more lives would be saved, and the number of 'Missing at sea" cases ( including the Sleavin family) could be drastically reduced, if designers and builders would do more work on making steel boats more affordable, instead of trying to make them trendier, and more complex and expensive, to pad their own nests. > > Far too many designers and builders, completely refuse to give any effort at dealing with the two biggest issues facing most cruisers, time and money, forcing people to put their lives and that of their families at risk , by making flimsy plastic boats the only ones they can afford. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Barney Treadway wrote: > >> > >> If anyone has any doubts on hull construction material, that picture is worth a thousand words. What other vessel would still be floating? > >> > >> www.ecomshare.com > >> > >> Pierre wrote: > >> > >>> I know that if the preparation for the paint and if there is enough > >>> paint on/in the hull it is highly unlikely that corrosion will cause > >>> damage severe enough that replating is needed. But if you get hit by a > >>> tanker or something else that causes a big dent in your origami hull > >>> like this ( click here for picture > >>> >>> 16-steel-yacht-construction-steelhull.jpg> ), is it possible to > >>> replate that part of the hull? > >>> Pierre > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27250|27211|2011-12-19 21:25:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > Hi Matt; > > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. > > Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not thousands of times less fragile than cars. All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing blow. I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27251|27211|2011-12-19 21:41:48|Roy|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|don't forget the PT-109 and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great place to be! --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM   On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > Hi Matt; > > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. > > Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not thousands of times less fragile than cars. All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing blow. I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27252|27252|2011-12-19 22:15:59|vertboiler|Aluminum Mast-Spar Material for Sale|Aluminum Mast-Spar Material for Sale: New/Unused 6061-T6 Schedule 40 Structural Extruded (Seamless) Aluminum Pipe! All lengths in factory wrapping and kept in dry storage. Check local pricing -- you can ship these almost anywhere in the U.S. and still save a bundle. Local pickup obviously avoids shipping/packing costs. Located central Indiana,U.S.A.. Will sell individually, but buy the whole lot and take 10% off the total. All are 6061-T6. ASTM-B429,AMS-QQ-A-200/8. 12-inch (nominal): Two 20-foot lengths Schedule 40 (12.75" O.D. X 11.938" I.D. X 0.406" wall), 310 lbs each, $550 each 10-inch (nominal): One 20-foot length Schedule 40 (10.75" O.D. X 10.02" I.D. X 0.365" wall), 280 lbs, $425 8-inch (nominal): Two 20-foot lengths Schedule 40 (8.625" O.D. X 7.981" I.D. X 0.322" wall), 197.6 lbs each, $300 each Regards, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27253|27211|2011-12-19 23:16:48|Matt Malone|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|David, I am not sure what I think about a steel hull of ordinary thickness hit by a freighter at 9 knots.... and possibly pitching and plunging with a heavy swell (think blunt saw/jack-hammer and multiple impacts). And if the large ship starts forcing you under, it is the maximum flotation of your little boat that the contact must endure -- which might be 50-70 tons (a lot of air space even in a small boat). I am quite sure that I am not sure about all the seams staying closed and the ports staying in place either. And being hit by a large ship at 9 knots, is more like ramming a steel wharf edge at 9 knots, and not nose first with the strong direction of the little boat. Collisions with log booms: if the booms give even a few inches, that is a tremendous reduction in contact forces. Bouncing on a reef, yes, impressive, but again, it is bouncing on the strong points of the bottom of the keel, and a large part of the ballast mass of the boat is in direct contact with the impact -- only the lighter upper part of the hull has to be carried by the mid-rift of the hull. Think about a hammer. When you swing it and hit a rock, how much shock is there in the handle? Not so much as the face of the head for any weight of hammer. I also wonder if the pitch and plunge speed reaches 9 knots in pounding a reef. So in general, I am not sure about steel boats and big boats in collision, and do not want to find out. Ben is quite right about there being a lot of factors. One additional factor, the impulse drag (not steady state drag) of an object when one starts to push through the water is equal to the gravitational force of the mass of the water displaced, plus all other forms of drag. Note, I did not say the displacement of the boat. Note this is a new hydrodynamic force that behaves like an inertia, but is caused by water pressure on the surface of a body when a body tries to change its motion while submerged. So if the freighter hits you, and drags you under and you come to a sudden stop on its bow bulb, that is an instantaneous force of 50-70 tons of hydrodynamic geometrical drag trying to rip you in half like a kleenex, on top of the 50-70 tons of flotation force, on top of the frictional and wave drag and pitching and plunging drag of being on the front of a big boat. Once you are moving with the ship, the hydrodynamic geometrical drag goes to zero, pitching and plunging drag stays, as do the other types of drag. Here is an experiment. Get a stiff piece of styrofoam and wave it knife-edge in the air, fast, feel its inertia. Now wave it knife-edge in the water, fast. Feel how it feels like it has gained a lot of fluid mass that you have to accelerate, like it was filled with water ? That is actually fluid drag caused by changing your motion in water. Shake a bottle of water under water and it feels like it has twice the mass. It makes anything in the water behave like a dead-blow (lead-shot-filled) hammer. Even hitting a wharf at 9 knots is not the same as being hit by a large boat because in the case of a wharf, less of the boat is under the water, so there is less hydrodynamic inertial drag trying to pile you into the wharf for a moment. As for there not being a watch, the mother was on watch, had gone below to make log entries and was just about to climb back on deck when they were hit. It is easy to lose 5 minutes below when you intend to do just one thing. She also reported the ship was showing no lights directly after the collision -- they may not have been showing any lights before, and 5 minutes at 9 knots is over a kilometer, about 1.4km. From 1.4 kilometer away, in a storm, the ship could easily have been invisible from deck level on a small boat, even with lights, given blown spray and rain -- 50 knot winds reported. The large ship would have a better chance of seeing the sailboat's mast lights if it had had a forward observer on duty because both would be significantly higher off the waves and the effect of blown spray would be reduced. And who said it was 5 minutes, might have been 10 since she last looked in that exact direction long enough to pick out a light. It was an awful night 30 miles offshore. The ship was running without a forward observer, and apparently saw and ignored the light of the sailboat -- that is what the internet says, for what that is worth. So, in a fibreglass boat, I am worried about big boats and beaches, and floating debris, and log booms, and reefs, and shipping containers at any speed.... where you are mostly concerned about big boats and they have AIS. Really you would still be concerned about shipping containers and pointy rocks, and well most of the same things as me, except you would have the knowledge that you will probably come off better than average, where the average is in a fibreglass boat. One cannot buy that type of insurance for a fibreglass boat. So, AIS seems cheap and indispensable. Radar is power costly, and honestly, I would not run it when I could see. I read about a pulse radar system that one can set to pulse once every couple of minutes, and go into a hibernation, power saving mode between. Sounds expensive, but, another thing I will look at. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: DeafMessianic@... Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:41:47 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance don't forget the PT-109 and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great place to be! --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > Hi Matt; > > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. > > Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not thousands of times less fragile than cars. All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing blow. I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27254|27211|2011-12-20 00:52:54|Roy|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|yeah, you got a point and well said ... been learning a lot and it is interesting I was thinking about the radar ... what is involved, etc, and was thinking to ask here ... and you came in with that post ... appreciate that one ...   noticed that radar is "power hungry" ... what is it like? sounds like it is a problem ... how serious is that? I am looking to go very low electric consumption for overall operations, using led for lighting and 12 V for most everything else am checking on this "AIS" ... sounds like something I can integrate into the system and find useful ... one question tho ... do those larger boats turn theirs on, all the time? This one apparently didn't even turn its lights on at all! What about sending aloft a big red balloon or kite and using it for surveillance of your surroundings with a camera and lights or whatever if this is a serious problem with the big boats? lots of things are miniaturized todays that it should be no problem to make something useful and not needing much ... 100' to 300' up in air is a lot better than looking out from 20' above water if that ... sort of having a crow's nest ... it helps? --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 11:16 PM David, I am not sure what I think about a steel hull of ordinary thickness hit by a freighter at 9 knots.... and possibly pitching and plunging with a heavy swell (think blunt saw/jack-hammer and multiple impacts).  And if the large ship starts forcing you under, it is the maximum flotation of your little boat that the contact must endure -- which might be 50-70 tons (a lot of air space even in a small boat).   I am quite sure that I am not sure about all the seams staying closed and the ports staying in place either.  And being hit by a large ship at 9 knots, is more like ramming a steel wharf edge at 9 knots, and not nose first with the strong direction of the little boat.  Collisions with log booms: if the booms give even a few inches, that is a tremendous reduction in contact forces.   Bouncing on a reef, yes, impressive, but again, it is bouncing on the strong points of the bottom of the keel, and a large part of the ballast mass of the boat is in direct contact with the impact -- only the lighter upper part of the hull has to be carried by the mid-rift of the hull.  Think about a hammer.  When you swing it and hit a rock, how much shock is there in the handle?  Not so much as the face of the head for any weight of hammer.   I also wonder if the pitch and plunge speed reaches 9 knots in pounding a reef.  So in general, I am not sure about steel boats and big boats in collision, and do not want to find out.    Ben is quite right about there being a lot of factors.  One additional factor, the impulse drag (not steady state drag) of an object when one starts to push through the water is equal to the gravitational force of the mass of the water displaced, plus all other forms of drag.  Note, I did not say the displacement of the boat.  Note this is a new hydrodynamic force that behaves like an inertia, but is caused by water pressure on the surface of a body when a body tries to change its motion while submerged.  So if the freighter hits you, and drags you under and you come to a sudden stop on its bow bulb, that is an instantaneous force of 50-70 tons of hydrodynamic geometrical drag trying to rip you in half like a kleenex, on top of the 50-70 tons of flotation force, on top of the frictional and wave drag and pitching and plunging drag of being on the front of a big boat.  Once you are moving with the ship, the hydrodynamic geometrical drag goes to zero, pitching and plunging drag stays, as do the other types of drag.    Here is an experiment.  Get a stiff piece of styrofoam and wave it knife-edge in the air, fast, feel its inertia.  Now wave it knife-edge in the water, fast.   Feel how it feels like it has gained a lot of fluid mass that you have to accelerate, like it was filled with water ?  That is actually fluid drag caused by changing your motion in water.  Shake a bottle of water under water and it feels like it has twice the mass.  It makes anything in the water behave like a dead-blow (lead-shot-filled) hammer. Even hitting a wharf at 9 knots is not the same as being hit by a large boat because in the case of a wharf, less of the boat is under the water, so there is less hydrodynamic inertial drag trying to pile you into the wharf for a moment.  As for there not being a watch, the mother was on watch, had gone below to make log entries and was just about to climb back on deck when they were hit.  It is easy to lose 5 minutes below when you intend to do just one thing.  She also reported the ship was showing no lights directly after the collision -- they may not have been showing any lights before, and 5 minutes at 9 knots is over a kilometer, about 1.4km.  From 1.4 kilometer away, in a storm, the ship could easily have been invisible from deck level on a small boat, even with lights, given blown spray and rain -- 50 knot winds reported.  The large ship would have a better chance of seeing the sailboat's mast lights if it had had a forward observer on duty because both would be significantly higher off the waves and the effect of blown spray would be reduced.    And who said it was 5 minutes, might have been 10 since she last looked in that exact direction long enough to pick out a light.  It was an awful night 30 miles offshore.  The ship was running without a forward observer, and apparently saw and ignored the light of the sailboat -- that is what the internet says, for what that is worth. So, in a fibreglass boat, I am worried about big boats and beaches, and floating debris, and log booms, and reefs, and shipping containers at any speed....  where you are mostly concerned about big boats and they have AIS.   Really you would still be concerned about shipping containers and pointy rocks, and well most of the same things as me, except you would have the knowledge that you will probably come off better than average, where the average is in a fibreglass boat.   One cannot buy that type of insurance for a fibreglass boat.   So, AIS seems cheap and indispensable.  Radar is power costly, and honestly, I would not run it when I could see.  I read about a pulse radar system that one can set to pulse once every couple of minutes, and go into a hibernation, power saving mode between. Sounds expensive, but, another thing I will look at.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: DeafMessianic@... Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:41:47 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance                         don't forget the PT-109 and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great place to be! --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > Hi Matt; > > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case.   That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter?    I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality.   Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision.  > > Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of collision.   The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other.  Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not thousands of times less fragile than cars. All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing blow. I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27255|27211|2011-12-20 00:59:15|Aaron|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|Can anyone else imagine that a large vessel like a barge or ship ran by someone that was a little bit sick in the head would run with their light off just hunting for prey out on the open ocean. Aaron   ________________________________ From: Roy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 8:52 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance   yeah, you got a point and well said ... been learning a lot and it is interesting I was thinking about the radar ... what is involved, etc, and was thinking to ask here ... and you came in with that post ... appreciate that one ...   noticed that radar is "power hungry" ... what is it like? sounds like it is a problem ... how serious is that? I am looking to go very low electric consumption for overall operations, using led for lighting and 12 V for most everything else am checking on this "AIS" ... sounds like something I can integrate into the system and find useful ... one question tho ... do those larger boats turn theirs on, all the time? This one apparently didn't even turn its lights on at all! What about sending aloft a big red balloon or kite and using it for surveillance of your surroundings with a camera and lights or whatever if this is a serious problem with the big boats? lots of things are miniaturized todays that it should be no problem to make something useful and not needing much ... 100' to 300' up in air is a lot better than looking out from 20' above water if that ... sort of having a crow's nest ... it helps? --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 11:16 PM David, I am not sure what I think about a steel hull of ordinary thickness hit by a freighter at 9 knots.... and possibly pitching and plunging with a heavy swell (think blunt saw/jack-hammer and multiple impacts).  And if the large ship starts forcing you under, it is the maximum flotation of your little boat that the contact must endure -- which might be 50-70 tons (a lot of air space even in a small boat).   I am quite sure that I am not sure about all the seams staying closed and the ports staying in place either.  And being hit by a large ship at 9 knots, is more like ramming a steel wharf edge at 9 knots, and not nose first with the strong direction of the little boat.  Collisions with log booms: if the booms give even a few inches, that is a tremendous reduction in contact forces.   Bouncing on a reef, yes, impressive, but again, it is bouncing on the strong points of the bottom of the keel, and a large part of the ballast mass of the boat is in direct contact with the impact -- only the lighter upper part of the hull has to be carried by the mid-rift of the hull.  Think about a hammer.  When you swing it and hit a rock, how much shock is there in the handle?  Not so much as the face of the head for any weight of hammer.   I also wonder if the pitch and plunge speed reaches 9 knots in pounding a reef.  So in general, I am not sure about steel boats and big boats in collision, and do not want to find out.    Ben is quite right about there being a lot of factors.  One additional factor, the impulse drag (not steady state drag) of an object when one starts to push through the water is equal to the gravitational force of the mass of the water displaced, plus all other forms of drag.  Note, I did not say the displacement of the boat.  Note this is a new hydrodynamic force that behaves like an inertia, but is caused by water pressure on the surface of a body when a body tries to change its motion while submerged.  So if the freighter hits you, and drags you under and you come to a sudden stop on its bow bulb, that is an instantaneous force of 50-70 tons of hydrodynamic geometrical drag trying to rip you in half like a kleenex, on top of the 50-70 tons of flotation force, on top of the frictional and wave drag and pitching and plunging drag of being on the front of a big boat.  Once you are moving with the ship, the hydrodynamic geometrical drag goes to zero, pitching and plunging drag stays, as do the other types of drag.    Here is an experiment.  Get a stiff piece of styrofoam and wave it knife-edge in the air, fast, feel its inertia.  Now wave it knife-edge in the water, fast.   Feel how it feels like it has gained a lot of fluid mass that you have to accelerate, like it was filled with water ?  That is actually fluid drag caused by changing your motion in water.  Shake a bottle of water under water and it feels like it has twice the mass.  It makes anything in the water behave like a dead-blow (lead-shot-filled) hammer. Even hitting a wharf at 9 knots is not the same as being hit by a large boat because in the case of a wharf, less of the boat is under the water, so there is less hydrodynamic inertial drag trying to pile you into the wharf for a moment.  As for there not being a watch, the mother was on watch, had gone below to make log entries and was just about to climb back on deck when they were hit.  It is easy to lose 5 minutes below when you intend to do just one thing.  She also reported the ship was showing no lights directly after the collision -- they may not have been showing any lights before, and 5 minutes at 9 knots is over a kilometer, about 1.4km.  From 1.4 kilometer away, in a storm, the ship could easily have been invisible from deck level on a small boat, even with lights, given blown spray and rain -- 50 knot winds reported.  The large ship would have a better chance of seeing the sailboat's mast lights if it had had a forward observer on duty because both would be significantly higher off the waves and the effect of blown spray would be reduced.    And who said it was 5 minutes, might have been 10 since she last looked in that exact direction long enough to pick out a light.  It was an awful night 30 miles offshore.  The ship was running without a forward observer, and apparently saw and ignored the light of the sailboat -- that is what the internet says, for what that is worth. So, in a fibreglass boat, I am worried about big boats and beaches, and floating debris, and log booms, and reefs, and shipping containers at any speed....  where you are mostly concerned about big boats and they have AIS.   Really you would still be concerned about shipping containers and pointy rocks, and well most of the same things as me, except you would have the knowledge that you will probably come off better than average, where the average is in a fibreglass boat.   One cannot buy that type of insurance for a fibreglass boat.   So, AIS seems cheap and indispensable.  Radar is power costly, and honestly, I would not run it when I could see.  I read about a pulse radar system that one can set to pulse once every couple of minutes, and go into a hibernation, power saving mode between. Sounds expensive, but, another thing I will look at.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: DeafMessianic@... Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:41:47 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance                         don't forget the PT-109 and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great place to be! --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > Hi Matt; > > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case.   That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter?    I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality.   Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision.  > > Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of collision.   The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other.  Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not thousands of times less fragile than cars. All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing blow. I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27256|27211|2011-12-20 01:12:14|Brian Stannard|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|Commercial shipping do not have to have their radar on, and even if it is there is not a guarantee someone is watching the screen. Then there is the small radar return most sailboats have. By law their AIS is supposed to be on 24/7 and it doesn't require a watchful eye on the ship - it just keeps transmitting. I don't think the balloon or kite idea would work well. On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:52 PM, Roy wrote: > ** > > > yeah, you got a point and well said ... > > been learning a lot and it is interesting > > I was thinking about the radar ... what is involved, etc, and was thinking > to ask here ... > and you came in with that post ... appreciate that one ... > > noticed that radar is "power hungry" ... what is it like? sounds like it > is a problem ... how serious is that? I am looking to go very low electric > consumption for overall operations, using led for lighting and 12 V for > most everything else > > am checking on this "AIS" ... sounds like something I can integrate into > the system and find useful ... one question tho ... do those larger boats > turn theirs on, all the time? This one apparently didn't even turn its > lights on at all! > > What about sending aloft a big red balloon or kite and using it for > surveillance of your surroundings with a camera and lights or whatever if > this is a serious problem with the big boats? > > lots of things are miniaturized todays that it should be no problem to > make something useful and not needing much ... 100' to 300' up in air is a > lot better than looking out from 20' above water if that ... sort of having > a crow's nest ... it helps? > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Matt Malone wrote: > > From: Matt Malone > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 11:16 PM > > David, I am not sure what I think about a steel hull of ordinary thickness > hit by a freighter at 9 knots.... and possibly pitching and plunging > with a heavy swell (think blunt saw/jack-hammer and multiple impacts). > And if the large ship starts forcing you under, it is the maximum > flotation of your little boat that the contact must endure -- which might > be 50-70 tons (a lot of air space even in a small boat). I am quite sure > that I am not sure about all the seams staying closed and the ports > staying in place either. > > And being hit by a large ship at 9 knots, is more like ramming a steel > wharf edge at 9 knots, and not nose first with the strong direction of > the little boat. Collisions with log booms: if the booms give even a few > inches, that is a tremendous reduction in contact forces. Bouncing on > a reef, yes, impressive, but again, it is bouncing on the strong points > of the bottom of the keel, and a large part of the ballast mass of the > boat is in direct contact with the impact -- only the lighter upper part > of the hull has to be carried by the mid-rift of the hull. Think about > a hammer. When you swing it and hit a rock, how much shock is > there in the handle? Not so much as the face of the head for any > weight of hammer. I also wonder if the pitch and plunge speed > reaches 9 knots in pounding a reef. So in general, I am not sure about > steel boats and big boats in collision, and do not want to find out. > > Ben is quite right about there being a lot of factors. One additional > factor, the impulse drag (not steady state drag) of an object when > one starts to push through the water is equal to the gravitational force > of the mass of the water displaced, plus all other forms of drag. > Note, I did not say the displacement of the boat. Note this is a new > hydrodynamic force that behaves like an inertia, but is caused by > water pressure on the surface of a body when a body tries to > change its motion while submerged. > > So if the freighter hits you, and drags you under and you come to a > sudden stop on its bow bulb, that is an instantaneous force of > 50-70 tons of hydrodynamic geometrical drag trying to rip you in > half like a kleenex, on top of the 50-70 tons of flotation force, on > top of the frictional and wave drag and pitching and plunging drag > of being on the front of a big boat. Once you are moving with the > ship, the hydrodynamic geometrical drag goes to zero, pitching and > plunging drag stays, as do the other types of drag. > > Here is an experiment. Get a stiff piece of styrofoam and wave it > knife-edge in the air, fast, feel its inertia. Now wave it knife-edge > in the water, fast. Feel how it feels like it has gained a lot of fluid > mass that you have to accelerate, like it was filled with water ? > That is actually fluid drag caused by changing your motion in water. > Shake a bottle of water under water and it feels like it has twice the > mass. It makes anything in the water behave like a dead-blow > (lead-shot-filled) hammer. > > Even hitting a wharf at 9 knots is not the same as being hit by a > large boat because in the case of a wharf, less of the boat is under > the water, so there is less hydrodynamic inertial drag trying to pile > you into the wharf for a moment. > > As for there not being a watch, the mother was on watch, had gone > below to make log entries and was just about to climb back on deck > when they were hit. It is easy to lose 5 minutes below when you > intend to do just one thing. She also reported the ship was showing > no lights directly after the collision -- they may not have been showing > any lights before, and 5 minutes at 9 knots is over a kilometer, about > 1.4km. From 1.4 kilometer away, in a storm, the ship could easily have > been invisible from deck level on a small boat, even with lights, given > blown spray and rain -- 50 knot winds reported. The large ship > would have a better chance of seeing the sailboat's mast lights if it > had had a forward observer on duty because both would be significantly > higher off the waves and the effect of blown spray would be reduced. > And who said it was 5 minutes, might have been 10 since she last > looked in that exact direction long enough to pick out a light. It was > an awful night 30 miles offshore. The ship was running without a > forward observer, and apparently saw and ignored the light of the > sailboat -- that is what the internet says, for what that is worth. > > So, in a fibreglass boat, I am worried about big boats and beaches, > and floating debris, and log booms, and reefs, and shipping > containers at any speed.... where you are mostly concerned about > big boats and they have AIS. Really you would still be concerned > about shipping containers and pointy rocks, and well most > of the same things as me, except you would have the knowledge > that you will probably come off better than average, where the > average is in a fibreglass boat. One cannot buy that type of > insurance for a fibreglass boat. > > So, AIS seems cheap and indispensable. Radar is power costly, > > and honestly, I would not run it when I could see. I read about a > pulse radar system that one can set to pulse once every couple > of minutes, and go into a hibernation, power saving mode between. > Sounds expensive, but, another thing I will look at. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: DeafMessianic@... > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:41:47 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > > > > don't forget the PT-109 > > and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great > place to be! > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > From: Ben Okopnik > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > > > Hi Matt; > > > > > > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference > in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not > one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people > have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry > land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, > do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car > or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here > and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and > crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. > > > > > > Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely > different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different > sort of collision. The fact remains though that the difference in > thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against > the other. > > Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most > > important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. > > Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow > > steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an > > inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel > > pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, > > lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile > > (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since > > they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of > > mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull > > thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not > > thousands of times less fragile than cars. > > All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, > > etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that > > have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel > > boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat > > will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit > > squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), > > whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing > > blow. > > I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the > > Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these > > days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very > > impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is > > impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly > > _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. > > Ben > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27257|27257|2011-12-20 05:43:32|jacentyf|Yago-Project|Hello all, I once saw an interesting project boat (Yago Project - Yago 36). But I can not contact the author - Gerd Muller. You do not know how to contact him? His website is outdated. best regards Jacek Poland| 27258|27211|2011-12-20 06:48:43|Maxime Camirand|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|Slight correction: AIS is supposed to be on 24/7, except when the master judges that it should be turned off. This usually means that it is off in high-piracy areas. On 20 December 2011 01:12, Brian Stannard wrote: > Commercial shipping do not have to have their radar on, and even if it is > there is not a guarantee someone is watching the screen. Then there is the > small radar return most sailboats have. By law their AIS is supposed to be > on 24/7 and it doesn't require a watchful eye on the ship - it just keeps > transmitting. > > I don't think the balloon or kite idea would work well. > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:52 PM, Roy wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> yeah, you got a point and well said ... >> >> been learning a lot and it is interesting >> >> I was thinking about the radar ... what is involved, etc, and was thinking >> to ask here ... >> and you came in with that post ... appreciate that one ... >> >> noticed that radar is "power hungry" ... what is it like? sounds like it >> is a problem ... how serious is that? I am looking to go very low electric >> consumption for overall operations, using led for lighting and 12 V for >> most everything else >> >> am checking on this "AIS" ... sounds like something I can integrate into >> the system and find useful ... one question tho ... do those larger boats >> turn theirs on, all the time? This one apparently didn't even turn its >> lights on at all! >> >> What about sending aloft a big red balloon or kite and using it for >> surveillance of your surroundings with a camera and lights or whatever if >> this is a serious problem with the big boats? >> >> lots of things are miniaturized todays that it should be no problem to >> make something useful and not needing much ... 100' to 300' up in air is a >> lot better than looking out from 20' above water if that ... sort of having >> a crow's nest ... it helps? >> >> --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Matt Malone wrote: >> >> From: Matt Malone >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 11:16 PM >> >> David, I am not sure what I think about a steel hull of ordinary thickness >> hit by a freighter at 9 knots.... and possibly pitching and plunging >> with a heavy swell (think blunt saw/jack-hammer and multiple impacts). >> And if the large ship starts forcing you under, it is the maximum >> flotation of your little boat that the contact must endure -- which might >> be 50-70 tons (a lot of air space even in a small boat).   I am quite sure >> that I am not sure about all the seams staying closed and the ports >> staying in place either. >> >> And being hit by a large ship at 9 knots, is more like ramming a steel >> wharf edge at 9 knots, and not nose first with the strong direction of >> the little boat.  Collisions with log booms: if the booms give even a few >> inches, that is a tremendous reduction in contact forces.   Bouncing on >> a reef, yes, impressive, but again, it is bouncing on the strong points >> of the bottom of the keel, and a large part of the ballast mass of the >> boat is in direct contact with the impact -- only the lighter upper part >> of the hull has to be carried by the mid-rift of the hull.  Think about >> a hammer.  When you swing it and hit a rock, how much shock is >> there in the handle?  Not so much as the face of the head for any >> weight of hammer.   I also wonder if the pitch and plunge speed >> reaches 9 knots in pounding a reef.  So in general, I am not sure about >> steel boats and big boats in collision, and do not want to find out. >> >> Ben is quite right about there being a lot of factors.  One additional >> factor, the impulse drag (not steady state drag) of an object when >> one starts to push through the water is equal to the gravitational force >> of the mass of the water displaced, plus all other forms of drag. >> Note, I did not say the displacement of the boat.  Note this is a new >> hydrodynamic force that behaves like an inertia, but is caused by >> water pressure on the surface of a body when a body tries to >> change its motion while submerged. >> >> So if the freighter hits you, and drags you under and you come to a >> sudden stop on its bow bulb, that is an instantaneous force of >> 50-70 tons of hydrodynamic geometrical drag trying to rip you in >> half like a kleenex, on top of the 50-70 tons of flotation force, on >> top of the frictional and wave drag and pitching and plunging drag >> of being on the front of a big boat.  Once you are moving with the >> ship, the hydrodynamic geometrical drag goes to zero, pitching and >> plunging drag stays, as do the other types of drag. >> >> Here is an experiment.  Get a stiff piece of styrofoam and wave it >> knife-edge in the air, fast, feel its inertia.  Now wave it knife-edge >> in the water, fast.   Feel how it feels like it has gained a lot of fluid >> mass that you have to accelerate, like it was filled with water ? >> That is actually fluid drag caused by changing your motion in water. >> Shake a bottle of water under water and it feels like it has twice the >> mass.  It makes anything in the water behave like a dead-blow >> (lead-shot-filled) hammer. >> >> Even hitting a wharf at 9 knots is not the same as being hit by a >> large boat because in the case of a wharf, less of the boat is under >> the water, so there is less hydrodynamic inertial drag trying to pile >> you into the wharf for a moment. >> >> As for there not being a watch, the mother was on watch, had gone >> below to make log entries and was just about to climb back on deck >> when they were hit.  It is easy to lose 5 minutes below when you >> intend to do just one thing.  She also reported the ship was showing >> no lights directly after the collision -- they may not have been showing >> any lights before, and 5 minutes at 9 knots is over a kilometer, about >> 1.4km.  From 1.4 kilometer away, in a storm, the ship could easily have >> been invisible from deck level on a small boat, even with lights, given >> blown spray and rain -- 50 knot winds reported.  The large ship >> would have a better chance of seeing the sailboat's mast lights if it >> had had a forward observer on duty because both would be significantly >> higher off the waves and the effect of blown spray would be reduced. >> And who said it was 5 minutes, might have been 10 since she last >> looked in that exact direction long enough to pick out a light.  It was >> an awful night 30 miles offshore.  The ship was running without a >> forward observer, and apparently saw and ignored the light of the >> sailboat -- that is what the internet says, for what that is worth. >> >> So, in a fibreglass boat, I am worried about big boats and beaches, >> and floating debris, and log booms, and reefs, and shipping >> containers at any speed....  where you are mostly concerned about >> big boats and they have AIS.   Really you would still be concerned >> about shipping containers and pointy rocks, and well most >> of the same things as me, except you would have the knowledge >> that you will probably come off better than average, where the >> average is in a fibreglass boat.   One cannot buy that type of >> insurance for a fibreglass boat. >> >> So, AIS seems cheap and indispensable.  Radar is power costly, >> >> and honestly, I would not run it when I could see.  I read about a >> pulse radar system that one can set to pulse once every couple >> of minutes, and go into a hibernation, power saving mode between. >> Sounds expensive, but, another thing I will look at. >> >> Matt >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: DeafMessianic@... >> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:41:47 -0800 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance >> >> >> >> >> >> >>       don't forget the PT-109 >> >> and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great >> place to be! >> >> --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: >> >> From: Ben Okopnik >> >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM >> >> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: >> >> > Hi Matt; >> >> > >> >> > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference >> in this case.   That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter?    I'm not >> one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people >> have expectations beyond reality.   Look at this way, say you are on dry >> land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, >> do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car >> or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here >> and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and >> crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. >> >> > >> >> > Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely >> different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different >> sort of collision.   The fact remains though that the difference in >> thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against >> the other. >> >> Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most >> >> important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. >> >> Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow >> >> steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an >> >> inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel >> >> pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, >> >> lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile >> >> (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since >> >> they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of >> >> mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull >> >> thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not >> >> thousands of times less fragile than cars. >> >> All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, >> >> etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that >> >> have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel >> >> boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat >> >> will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit >> >> squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), >> >> whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing >> >> blow. >> >> I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the >> >> Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these >> >> days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very >> >> impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is >> >> impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly >> >> _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. >> >> Ben >> >> -- >> >> OKOPNIK CONSULTING >> >> Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business >> >> Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming >> >> 443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > > > > -- > Cheers > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27259|27211|2011-12-20 07:14:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 09:59:13PM -0800, Aaron wrote: > Can anyone else imagine that a large vessel like a barge or ship ran by someone that was a little bit sick in the head would run with their light off just hunting for prey out on the open ocean. That would be a really long, frustrating hunt. Hard to imagine a murderer like that having that much patience, when he could just "accidentally" puh one of his shipmates overboard instead. :) The usage of lights would be a rigid matter of policy determined by the captain, or more likely the policy of the company as based on legal requirements (read "insurance purposes") and not subject to some watchstander's whim. If someone ever went counter to that policy, I'd think it would be noted very quickly, and lots of uncomfortable questions would be asked. That being said, can we imagine a nightmare scenario where some twisted crazy at the help twitches the wheel just a little to run over a boat that appears in front of them? Sure; we humans are great at coming up with nightmares like that, scenarios that are extremely vivid in our imagination - that's why the whole terrorism campaign here in the US is so effective at turning most people into sheep and making them happy to give up their freedoms "so they can be protected". The reality, however, is that 99.99+% of all people out there are normal, decent folks (compare violent crime stats against the total population, even in the worst places.) We humans are actually a very gregarious and cooperative species, almost more than any other animal on Earth - *amazingly* so, given the population density (some types of gorillas are about as cooperative; monkey tribes are usually more violent/less cooperative.) If that wasn't the case, something as simple as owning a business would be impossible: the next person to walk in would kill you and take your money and goods, end of story. As it is, deterring that one in ten thousand is enough so that a large supermarket can easily have a thousand dollars in cash at each of its registers and keep on operating. But we sure do panic easily. Especially at our own stories. :) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27260|27211|2011-12-20 07:27:38|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|I was sailing by night a lot the last thirty years all around the Med's Adriatic, the Red Sea, Black Sea including Bosporus, and the Baltic, and all of those are places with heavy ship-traffic of all kinds in sharply confined fairways. Experience showed (and still shows) that merchant shipping looses more and more of its sense of responsibility and seamanship while the intensity of traffic still increases. Sometimes up to about 30 percent of the (BIG) vessels we sighted in one night did not show proper lights or lights at all even in places like the bight of Trieste or the channel approach into Rijeka, while all of them ran their AIS transponder. Well, and those vessels do not go with 9 knots, more like 16 to 19 knots, and some cases even more. AIS showed as one piece of safety that sailors aboard vulnerable tiny little winddriven nutshells with little electrical capabilities (what repels You from proper use of radar) can actively use as an improvement for their chances to stay alive between those big gamesters. You even can use AIS as a backup when shorthanded or singlehanding, 'cause it can be put to ring a bell if any other AIS-transponder transmitting signals comes within the choosen circle of alarm. Transmitting our own AIS-signal as a "bookmark" onto the bridge of an unlit freighter (protocolling and keeping the AIS-realtime-contacts is mandatory and due to instant revocation of licenses if omitted) usually produced IMMEDIATE reactions like flashlights, lights on bridge, sometimes even random varieties of navigational lights and significantly reduced speed. Compared to radar it does not require particular amounts of electricity, while showing only AIS-transponding rivalry. Still leaves open the problem of debris, not to mention shoreline. Am 20.12.2011 um 06:59 schrieb Aaron: > Can anyone else imagine that a large vessel like a barge or ship ran by someone that was a little bit sick in the head would run with their light off just hunting for prey out on the open ocean. > Aaron > > > > ________________________________ > From: Roy > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 8:52 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > > yeah, you got a point and well said ... > > been learning a lot and it is interesting > > I was thinking about the radar ... what is involved, etc, and was thinking to ask here ... > and you came in with that post ... appreciate that one ... > > noticed that radar is "power hungry" ... what is it like? sounds like it is a problem ... how serious is that? I am looking to go very low electric consumption for overall operations, using led for lighting and 12 V for most everything else > > am checking on this "AIS" ... sounds like something I can integrate into the system and find useful ... one question tho ... do those larger boats turn theirs on, all the time? This one apparently didn't even turn its lights on at all! > > What about sending aloft a big red balloon or kite and using it for surveillance of your surroundings with a camera and lights or whatever if this is a serious problem with the big boats? > > lots of things are miniaturized todays that it should be no problem to make something useful and not needing much ... 100' to 300' up in air is a lot better than looking out from 20' above water if that ... sort of having a crow's nest ... it helps? > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Matt Malone wrote: > > From: Matt Malone > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 11:16 PM > > David, I am not sure what I think about a steel hull of ordinary thickness > hit by a freighter at 9 knots.... and possibly pitching and plunging > with a heavy swell (think blunt saw/jack-hammer and multiple impacts). > And if the large ship starts forcing you under, it is the maximum > flotation of your little boat that the contact must endure -- which might > be 50-70 tons (a lot of air space even in a small boat). I am quite sure > that I am not sure about all the seams staying closed and the ports > staying in place either. > > And being hit by a large ship at 9 knots, is more like ramming a steel > wharf edge at 9 knots, and not nose first with the strong direction of > the little boat. Collisions with log booms: if the booms give even a few > inches, that is a tremendous reduction in contact forces. Bouncing on > a reef, yes, impressive, but again, it is bouncing on the strong points > of the bottom of the keel, and a large part of the ballast mass of the > boat is in direct contact with the impact -- only the lighter upper part > of the hull has to be carried by the mid-rift of the hull. Think about > a hammer. When you swing it and hit a rock, how much shock is > there in the handle? Not so much as the face of the head for any > weight of hammer. I also wonder if the pitch and plunge speed > reaches 9 knots in pounding a reef. So in general, I am not sure about > steel boats and big boats in collision, and do not want to find out. > > Ben is quite right about there being a lot of factors. One additional > factor, the impulse drag (not steady state drag) of an object when > one starts to push through the water is equal to the gravitational force > of the mass of the water displaced, plus all other forms of drag. > Note, I did not say the displacement of the boat. Note this is a new > hydrodynamic force that behaves like an inertia, but is caused by > water pressure on the surface of a body when a body tries to > change its motion while submerged. > > So if the freighter hits you, and drags you under and you come to a > sudden stop on its bow bulb, that is an instantaneous force of > 50-70 tons of hydrodynamic geometrical drag trying to rip you in > half like a kleenex, on top of the 50-70 tons of flotation force, on > top of the frictional and wave drag and pitching and plunging drag > of being on the front of a big boat. Once you are moving with the > ship, the hydrodynamic geometrical drag goes to zero, pitching and > plunging drag stays, as do the other types of drag. > > Here is an experiment. Get a stiff piece of styrofoam and wave it > knife-edge in the air, fast, feel its inertia. Now wave it knife-edge > in the water, fast. Feel how it feels like it has gained a lot of fluid > mass that you have to accelerate, like it was filled with water ? > That is actually fluid drag caused by changing your motion in water. > Shake a bottle of water under water and it feels like it has twice the > mass. It makes anything in the water behave like a dead-blow > (lead-shot-filled) hammer. > > Even hitting a wharf at 9 knots is not the same as being hit by a > large boat because in the case of a wharf, less of the boat is under > the water, so there is less hydrodynamic inertial drag trying to pile > you into the wharf for a moment. > > As for there not being a watch, the mother was on watch, had gone > below to make log entries and was just about to climb back on deck > when they were hit. It is easy to lose 5 minutes below when you > intend to do just one thing. She also reported the ship was showing > no lights directly after the collision -- they may not have been showing > any lights before, and 5 minutes at 9 knots is over a kilometer, about > 1.4km. From 1.4 kilometer away, in a storm, the ship could easily have > been invisible from deck level on a small boat, even with lights, given > blown spray and rain -- 50 knot winds reported. The large ship > would have a better chance of seeing the sailboat's mast lights if it > had had a forward observer on duty because both would be significantly > higher off the waves and the effect of blown spray would be reduced. > And who said it was 5 minutes, might have been 10 since she last > looked in that exact direction long enough to pick out a light. It was > an awful night 30 miles offshore. The ship was running without a > forward observer, and apparently saw and ignored the light of the > sailboat -- that is what the internet says, for what that is worth. > > So, in a fibreglass boat, I am worried about big boats and beaches, > and floating debris, and log booms, and reefs, and shipping > containers at any speed.... where you are mostly concerned about > big boats and they have AIS. Really you would still be concerned > about shipping containers and pointy rocks, and well most > of the same things as me, except you would have the knowledge > that you will probably come off better than average, where the > average is in a fibreglass boat. One cannot buy that type of > insurance for a fibreglass boat. > > So, AIS seems cheap and indispensable. Radar is power costly, > > and honestly, I would not run it when I could see. I read about a > pulse radar system that one can set to pulse once every couple > of minutes, and go into a hibernation, power saving mode between. > Sounds expensive, but, another thing I will look at. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: DeafMessianic@... > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:41:47 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > > > > don't forget the PT-109 > > and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great place to be! > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > From: Ben Okopnik > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > > > Hi Matt; > > > > > > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. > > > > > > Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. > > Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most > > important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. > > Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow > > steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an > > inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel > > pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, > > lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile > > (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since > > they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of > > mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull > > thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not > > thousands of times less fragile than cars. > > All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, > > etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that > > have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel > > boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat > > will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit > > squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), > > whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing > > blow. > > I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the > > Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these > > days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very > > impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is > > impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly > > _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. > > Ben > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27261|27257|2011-12-20 08:53:07|mauro gonzaga|Re: Yago-Project|You are not the first who's looking for him. He simply disappeared, leaving us with his promise to put on sale a bigger boat design mauro ________________________________ From: jacentyf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Yago-Project   Hello all, I once saw an interesting project boat (Yago Project - Yago 36). But I can not contact the author - Gerd Muller. You do not know how to contact him? His website is outdated. best regards Jacek Poland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27262|27211|2011-12-20 11:24:34|Brian Stannard|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|Not a good place to sail either. Collision would be the least of your worries. On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:48 AM, Maxime Camirand wrote: > ** > > > Slight correction: AIS is supposed to be on 24/7, except when the > master judges that it should be turned off. This usually means that it > is off in high-piracy areas. > > On 20 December 2011 01:12, Brian Stannard wrote: > > Commercial shipping do not have to have their radar on, and even if it is > > there is not a guarantee someone is watching the screen. Then there is > the > > small radar return most sailboats have. By law their AIS is supposed to > be > > on 24/7 and it doesn't require a watchful eye on the ship - it just keeps > > transmitting. > > > > I don't think the balloon or kite idea would work well. > > > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:52 PM, Roy wrote: > > > >> ** > >> > >> > >> yeah, you got a point and well said ... > >> > >> been learning a lot and it is interesting > >> > >> I was thinking about the radar ... what is involved, etc, and was > thinking > >> to ask here ... > >> and you came in with that post ... appreciate that one ... > >> > >> noticed that radar is "power hungry" ... what is it like? sounds like it > >> is a problem ... how serious is that? I am looking to go very low > electric > >> consumption for overall operations, using led for lighting and 12 V for > >> most everything else > >> > >> am checking on this "AIS" ... sounds like something I can integrate into > >> the system and find useful ... one question tho ... do those larger > boats > >> turn theirs on, all the time? This one apparently didn't even turn its > >> lights on at all! > >> > >> What about sending aloft a big red balloon or kite and using it for > >> surveillance of your surroundings with a camera and lights or whatever > if > >> this is a serious problem with the big boats? > >> > >> lots of things are miniaturized todays that it should be no problem to > >> make something useful and not needing much ... 100' to 300' up in air > is a > >> lot better than looking out from 20' above water if that ... sort of > having > >> a crow's nest ... it helps? > >> > >> --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Matt Malone wrote: > >> > >> From: Matt Malone > >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 11:16 PM > >> > >> David, I am not sure what I think about a steel hull of ordinary > thickness > >> hit by a freighter at 9 knots.... and possibly pitching and plunging > >> with a heavy swell (think blunt saw/jack-hammer and multiple impacts). > >> And if the large ship starts forcing you under, it is the maximum > >> flotation of your little boat that the contact must endure -- which > might > >> be 50-70 tons (a lot of air space even in a small boat). I am quite > sure > >> that I am not sure about all the seams staying closed and the ports > >> staying in place either. > >> > >> And being hit by a large ship at 9 knots, is more like ramming a steel > >> wharf edge at 9 knots, and not nose first with the strong direction of > >> the little boat. Collisions with log booms: if the booms give even a > few > >> inches, that is a tremendous reduction in contact forces. Bouncing on > >> a reef, yes, impressive, but again, it is bouncing on the strong points > >> of the bottom of the keel, and a large part of the ballast mass of the > >> boat is in direct contact with the impact -- only the lighter upper part > >> of the hull has to be carried by the mid-rift of the hull. Think about > >> a hammer. When you swing it and hit a rock, how much shock is > >> there in the handle? Not so much as the face of the head for any > >> weight of hammer. I also wonder if the pitch and plunge speed > >> reaches 9 knots in pounding a reef. So in general, I am not sure about > >> steel boats and big boats in collision, and do not want to find out. > >> > >> Ben is quite right about there being a lot of factors. One additional > >> factor, the impulse drag (not steady state drag) of an object when > >> one starts to push through the water is equal to the gravitational force > >> of the mass of the water displaced, plus all other forms of drag. > >> Note, I did not say the displacement of the boat. Note this is a new > >> hydrodynamic force that behaves like an inertia, but is caused by > >> water pressure on the surface of a body when a body tries to > >> change its motion while submerged. > >> > >> So if the freighter hits you, and drags you under and you come to a > >> sudden stop on its bow bulb, that is an instantaneous force of > >> 50-70 tons of hydrodynamic geometrical drag trying to rip you in > >> half like a kleenex, on top of the 50-70 tons of flotation force, on > >> top of the frictional and wave drag and pitching and plunging drag > >> of being on the front of a big boat. Once you are moving with the > >> ship, the hydrodynamic geometrical drag goes to zero, pitching and > >> plunging drag stays, as do the other types of drag. > >> > >> Here is an experiment. Get a stiff piece of styrofoam and wave it > >> knife-edge in the air, fast, feel its inertia. Now wave it knife-edge > >> in the water, fast. Feel how it feels like it has gained a lot of > fluid > >> mass that you have to accelerate, like it was filled with water ? > >> That is actually fluid drag caused by changing your motion in water. > >> Shake a bottle of water under water and it feels like it has twice the > >> mass. It makes anything in the water behave like a dead-blow > >> (lead-shot-filled) hammer. > >> > >> Even hitting a wharf at 9 knots is not the same as being hit by a > >> large boat because in the case of a wharf, less of the boat is under > >> the water, so there is less hydrodynamic inertial drag trying to pile > >> you into the wharf for a moment. > >> > >> As for there not being a watch, the mother was on watch, had gone > >> below to make log entries and was just about to climb back on deck > >> when they were hit. It is easy to lose 5 minutes below when you > >> intend to do just one thing. She also reported the ship was showing > >> no lights directly after the collision -- they may not have been showing > >> any lights before, and 5 minutes at 9 knots is over a kilometer, about > >> 1.4km. From 1.4 kilometer away, in a storm, the ship could easily have > >> been invisible from deck level on a small boat, even with lights, given > >> blown spray and rain -- 50 knot winds reported. The large ship > >> would have a better chance of seeing the sailboat's mast lights if it > >> had had a forward observer on duty because both would be significantly > >> higher off the waves and the effect of blown spray would be reduced. > >> And who said it was 5 minutes, might have been 10 since she last > >> looked in that exact direction long enough to pick out a light. It was > >> an awful night 30 miles offshore. The ship was running without a > >> forward observer, and apparently saw and ignored the light of the > >> sailboat -- that is what the internet says, for what that is worth. > >> > >> So, in a fibreglass boat, I am worried about big boats and beaches, > >> and floating debris, and log booms, and reefs, and shipping > >> containers at any speed.... where you are mostly concerned about > >> big boats and they have AIS. Really you would still be concerned > >> about shipping containers and pointy rocks, and well most > >> of the same things as me, except you would have the knowledge > >> that you will probably come off better than average, where the > >> average is in a fibreglass boat. One cannot buy that type of > >> insurance for a fibreglass boat. > >> > >> So, AIS seems cheap and indispensable. Radar is power costly, > >> > >> and honestly, I would not run it when I could see. I read about a > >> pulse radar system that one can set to pulse once every couple > >> of minutes, and go into a hibernation, power saving mode between. > >> Sounds expensive, but, another thing I will look at. > >> > >> Matt > >> > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> From: DeafMessianic@... > >> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:41:47 -0800 > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> don't forget the PT-109 > >> > >> and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great > >> place to be! > >> > >> --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: > >> > >> From: Ben Okopnik > >> > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > >> > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM > >> > >> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > >> > >> > Hi Matt; > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference > >> in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm > not > >> one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes > people > >> have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry > >> land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming > locomotive, > >> do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass > car > >> or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor > here > >> and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and > >> crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely > >> different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a > different > >> sort of collision. The fact remains though that the difference in > >> thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against > >> the other. > >> > >> Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most > >> > >> important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. > >> > >> Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow > >> > >> steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an > >> > >> inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel > >> > >> pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, > >> > >> lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile > >> > >> (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since > >> > >> they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of > >> > >> mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull > >> > >> thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not > >> > >> thousands of times less fragile than cars. > >> > >> All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, > >> > >> etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that > >> > >> have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel > >> > >> boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat > >> > >> will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit > >> > >> squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), > >> > >> whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing > >> > >> blow. > >> > >> I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the > >> > >> Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these > >> > >> days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very > >> > >> impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is > >> > >> impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly > >> > >> _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. > >> > >> Ben > >> > >> -- > >> > >> OKOPNIK CONSULTING > >> > >> Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > >> > >> Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > >> > >> 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Cheers > > Brian > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27263|27211|2011-12-20 12:48:09|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|As far as sailing the Red Sea and the Horn of Africa (Eritrea/Somalia) are concerned, places with a bad reputation when it comes to piracy, I do disagree. Gunkholing there with a slightly dented, greyish (unpainted) freaky looking homegrown aluminium 42 footer with yellow stained sails, no radar dome, no shiny brightwork, no ritzy brass and nothing else smelling like big money, we met in 2008 and 2009 a number of people who had no other chance left for "earning" a living than stealing load or extortionate robbery, after industrial fishing fleets had thoroughly emptied their fishing grounds and international food care had completely destroyed the former (rudimentary, though) "market" for crops, not to mention the aftermath of the greedy international weapon traffickers dark deeds for the last twenty years since the local african alternative to capitalism went down with the Sovjet Union. Prices for raw coffee dropped to around a quarter of the 1990 level, and growing poppy isn't an alternative in this climate, so they sail and see what one of the mainroads of global trade keeps at hand for them. Those people did appreciate us modestly coming into their waters and in general were friendly, helpful and hospitable to us shorthanded sailors, often to a level quite embarrassing to Europeans, given the way we treat them he other way round, if they take the risk to sail from Libya or Tunesia up towards the EU. A problem of piracy does well exist, but to get rid of piracy Somalian style there have to be installed local and international ways of live which will actually enable those people at all to do something else for a decent living. Am 20.12.2011 um 17:24 schrieb Brian Stannard: > Not a good place to sail either. Collision would be the least of your > worries. > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:48 AM, Maxime Camirand wrote: > >> Slight correction: AIS is supposed to be on 24/7, except when the >> master judges that it should be turned off. >> This usually means that it >> is off in high-piracy areas. > | 27264|27257|2011-12-20 14:44:11|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Yago-Project|Perhaps this works? http://www.yago-project.com/boats/?page_id=2 Rgds/Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För mauro gonzaga Skickat: den 20 december 2011 14:53 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: Re: [origamiboats] Yago-Project You are not the first who's looking for him. He simply disappeared, leaving us with his promise to put on sale a bigger boat design mauro ________________________________ From: jacentyf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Yago-Project Hello all, I once saw an interesting project boat (Yago Project - Yago 36). But I can not contact the author - Gerd Muller. You do not know how to contact him? His website is outdated. best regards Jacek Poland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links| 27265|27211|2011-12-20 17:58:08|David Frantz|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|I'm reluctant to trust what the Internet says. Even locally when there is a bad accident all sorts of rumors get passed about based on nothing. The rumors are often drastically different than the stories you get from first responders or months later in accident reports. In any event I suspect that you see my point here. There is no doubt in my mind a steel boat is a big advantage safety wise! No body in this forum seems to argue with that. However like you I'd not want to find out what a collision at sea with a freighter would be like. There are to many factors to consider. Part of my fear is in seeing the results of various collisions I've seen on land. Locally we had a gruesome example where one of those ten wheeled flat beds with a off loading crane, had the crane come loose and hit the steel beam of an over pass. That crane punched a hole right through the web of that beam. I believe that was inch and a half thick steel. Now granted everything is different here, velocities, materials mass basically everything. I just can't help but to believe that the mass of that freighter would be a significant problem for any sail boat. Sure steel stretches but it also rips and crushes. Sent from my iPad On Dec 19, 2011, at 11:16 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > David, I am not sure what I think about a steel hull of ordinary thickness > hit by a freighter at 9 knots.... and possibly pitching and plunging > with a heavy swell (think blunt saw/jack-hammer and multiple impacts). > And if the large ship starts forcing you under, it is the maximum > flotation of your little boat that the contact must endure -- which might > be 50-70 tons (a lot of air space even in a small boat). I am quite sure > that I am not sure about all the seams staying closed and the ports > staying in place either. > > And being hit by a large ship at 9 knots, is more like ramming a steel > wharf edge at 9 knots, and not nose first with the strong direction of > the little boat. Collisions with log booms: if the booms give even a few > inches, that is a tremendous reduction in contact forces. Bouncing on > a reef, yes, impressive, but again, it is bouncing on the strong points > of the bottom of the keel, and a large part of the ballast mass of the > boat is in direct contact with the impact -- only the lighter upper part > of the hull has to be carried by the mid-rift of the hull. Think about > a hammer. When you swing it and hit a rock, how much shock is > there in the handle? Not so much as the face of the head for any > weight of hammer. I also wonder if the pitch and plunge speed > reaches 9 knots in pounding a reef. So in general, I am not sure about > steel boats and big boats in collision, and do not want to find out. > > Ben is quite right about there being a lot of factors. One additional > factor, the impulse drag (not steady state drag) of an object when > one starts to push through the water is equal to the gravitational force > of the mass of the water displaced, plus all other forms of drag. > Note, I did not say the displacement of the boat. Note this is a new > hydrodynamic force that behaves like an inertia, but is caused by > water pressure on the surface of a body when a body tries to > change its motion while submerged. > > So if the freighter hits you, and drags you under and you come to a > sudden stop on its bow bulb, that is an instantaneous force of > 50-70 tons of hydrodynamic geometrical drag trying to rip you in > half like a kleenex, on top of the 50-70 tons of flotation force, on > top of the frictional and wave drag and pitching and plunging drag > of being on the front of a big boat. Once you are moving with the > ship, the hydrodynamic geometrical drag goes to zero, pitching and > plunging drag stays, as do the other types of drag. > > Here is an experiment. Get a stiff piece of styrofoam and wave it > knife-edge in the air, fast, feel its inertia. Now wave it knife-edge > in the water, fast. Feel how it feels like it has gained a lot of fluid > mass that you have to accelerate, like it was filled with water ? > That is actually fluid drag caused by changing your motion in water. > Shake a bottle of water under water and it feels like it has twice the > mass. It makes anything in the water behave like a dead-blow > (lead-shot-filled) hammer. > > Even hitting a wharf at 9 knots is not the same as being hit by a > large boat because in the case of a wharf, less of the boat is under > the water, so there is less hydrodynamic inertial drag trying to pile > you into the wharf for a moment. > > As for there not being a watch, the mother was on watch, had gone > below to make log entries and was just about to climb back on deck > when they were hit. It is easy to lose 5 minutes below when you > intend to do just one thing. She also reported the ship was showing > no lights directly after the collision -- they may not have been showing > any lights before, and 5 minutes at 9 knots is over a kilometer, about > 1.4km. From 1.4 kilometer away, in a storm, the ship could easily have > been invisible from deck level on a small boat, even with lights, given > blown spray and rain -- 50 knot winds reported. The large ship > would have a better chance of seeing the sailboat's mast lights if it > had had a forward observer on duty because both would be significantly > higher off the waves and the effect of blown spray would be reduced. > And who said it was 5 minutes, might have been 10 since she last > looked in that exact direction long enough to pick out a light. It was > an awful night 30 miles offshore. The ship was running without a > forward observer, and apparently saw and ignored the light of the > sailboat -- that is what the internet says, for what that is worth. > > So, in a fibreglass boat, I am worried about big boats and beaches, > and floating debris, and log booms, and reefs, and shipping > containers at any speed.... where you are mostly concerned about > big boats and they have AIS. Really you would still be concerned > about shipping containers and pointy rocks, and well most > of the same things as me, except you would have the knowledge > that you will probably come off better than average, where the > average is in a fibreglass boat. One cannot buy that type of > insurance for a fibreglass boat. > > So, AIS seems cheap and indispensable. Radar is power costly, > > and honestly, I would not run it when I could see. I read about a > pulse radar system that one can set to pulse once every couple > of minutes, and go into a hibernation, power saving mode between. > Sounds expensive, but, another thing I will look at. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: DeafMessianic@... > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:41:47 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don't forget the PT-109 > > > > and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great place to be! > > > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM > > > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > > > >> Hi Matt; > > > >> > > > >> Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. > > > >> > > > >> Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. > > > > Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most > > > > important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. > > > > Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow > > > > steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an > > > > inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel > > > > pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, > > > > lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile > > > > (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since > > > > they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of > > > > mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull > > > > thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not > > > > thousands of times less fragile than cars. > > > > All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, > > > > etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that > > > > have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel > > > > boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat > > > > will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit > > > > squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), > > > > whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing > > > > blow. > > > > I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the > > > > Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these > > > > days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very > > > > impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is > > > > impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly > > > > _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. > > > > Ben > > > > -- > > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27266|27211|2011-12-20 18:05:32|David Frantz|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|There are people sick in the head all over the place so a few at sea is not unimaginable. The problem here is would somebody sick in the head turn a freighter around to check on what they ran into? I don't think so. As a small boater everybody wants to blame the freighter but sometimes blame isn't easy to assign. Sent from my iPad On Dec 20, 2011, at 12:59 AM, Aaron wrote: > Can anyone else imagine that a large vessel like a barge or ship ran by someone that was a little bit sick in the head would run with their light off just hunting for prey out on the open ocean. > Aaron > > > > ________________________________ > From: Roy > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 8:52 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > > > yeah, you got a point and well said ... > > been learning a lot and it is interesting > > I was thinking about the radar ... what is involved, etc, and was thinking to ask here ... > and you came in with that post ... appreciate that one ... > > noticed that radar is "power hungry" ... what is it like? sounds like it is a problem ... how serious is that? I am looking to go very low electric consumption for overall operations, using led for lighting and 12 V for most everything else > > am checking on this "AIS" ... sounds like something I can integrate into the system and find useful ... one question tho ... do those larger boats turn theirs on, all the time? This one apparently didn't even turn its lights on at all! > > What about sending aloft a big red balloon or kite and using it for surveillance of your surroundings with a camera and lights or whatever if this is a serious problem with the big boats? > > lots of things are miniaturized todays that it should be no problem to make something useful and not needing much ... 100' to 300' up in air is a lot better than looking out from 20' above water if that ... sort of having a crow's nest ... it helps? > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Matt Malone wrote: > > From: Matt Malone > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 11:16 PM > > David, I am not sure what I think about a steel hull of ordinary thickness > hit by a freighter at 9 knots.... and possibly pitching and plunging > with a heavy swell (think blunt saw/jack-hammer and multiple impacts). > And if the large ship starts forcing you under, it is the maximum > flotation of your little boat that the contact must endure -- which might > be 50-70 tons (a lot of air space even in a small boat). I am quite sure > that I am not sure about all the seams staying closed and the ports > staying in place either. > > And being hit by a large ship at 9 knots, is more like ramming a steel > wharf edge at 9 knots, and not nose first with the strong direction of > the little boat. Collisions with log booms: if the booms give even a few > inches, that is a tremendous reduction in contact forces. Bouncing on > a reef, yes, impressive, but again, it is bouncing on the strong points > of the bottom of the keel, and a large part of the ballast mass of the > boat is in direct contact with the impact -- only the lighter upper part > of the hull has to be carried by the mid-rift of the hull. Think about > a hammer. When you swing it and hit a rock, how much shock is > there in the handle? Not so much as the face of the head for any > weight of hammer. I also wonder if the pitch and plunge speed > reaches 9 knots in pounding a reef. So in general, I am not sure about > steel boats and big boats in collision, and do not want to find out. > > Ben is quite right about there being a lot of factors. One additional > factor, the impulse drag (not steady state drag) of an object when > one starts to push through the water is equal to the gravitational force > of the mass of the water displaced, plus all other forms of drag. > Note, I did not say the displacement of the boat. Note this is a new > hydrodynamic force that behaves like an inertia, but is caused by > water pressure on the surface of a body when a body tries to > change its motion while submerged. > > So if the freighter hits you, and drags you under and you come to a > sudden stop on its bow bulb, that is an instantaneous force of > 50-70 tons of hydrodynamic geometrical drag trying to rip you in > half like a kleenex, on top of the 50-70 tons of flotation force, on > top of the frictional and wave drag and pitching and plunging drag > of being on the front of a big boat. Once you are moving with the > ship, the hydrodynamic geometrical drag goes to zero, pitching and > plunging drag stays, as do the other types of drag. > > Here is an experiment. Get a stiff piece of styrofoam and wave it > knife-edge in the air, fast, feel its inertia. Now wave it knife-edge > in the water, fast. Feel how it feels like it has gained a lot of fluid > mass that you have to accelerate, like it was filled with water ? > That is actually fluid drag caused by changing your motion in water. > Shake a bottle of water under water and it feels like it has twice the > mass. It makes anything in the water behave like a dead-blow > (lead-shot-filled) hammer. > > Even hitting a wharf at 9 knots is not the same as being hit by a > large boat because in the case of a wharf, less of the boat is under > the water, so there is less hydrodynamic inertial drag trying to pile > you into the wharf for a moment. > > As for there not being a watch, the mother was on watch, had gone > below to make log entries and was just about to climb back on deck > when they were hit. It is easy to lose 5 minutes below when you > intend to do just one thing. She also reported the ship was showing > no lights directly after the collision -- they may not have been showing > any lights before, and 5 minutes at 9 knots is over a kilometer, about > 1.4km. From 1.4 kilometer away, in a storm, the ship could easily have > been invisible from deck level on a small boat, even with lights, given > blown spray and rain -- 50 knot winds reported. The large ship > would have a better chance of seeing the sailboat's mast lights if it > had had a forward observer on duty because both would be significantly > higher off the waves and the effect of blown spray would be reduced. > And who said it was 5 minutes, might have been 10 since she last > looked in that exact direction long enough to pick out a light. It was > an awful night 30 miles offshore. The ship was running without a > forward observer, and apparently saw and ignored the light of the > sailboat -- that is what the internet says, for what that is worth. > > So, in a fibreglass boat, I am worried about big boats and beaches, > and floating debris, and log booms, and reefs, and shipping > containers at any speed.... where you are mostly concerned about > big boats and they have AIS. Really you would still be concerned > about shipping containers and pointy rocks, and well most > of the same things as me, except you would have the knowledge > that you will probably come off better than average, where the > average is in a fibreglass boat. One cannot buy that type of > insurance for a fibreglass boat. > > So, AIS seems cheap and indispensable. Radar is power costly, > > and honestly, I would not run it when I could see. I read about a > pulse radar system that one can set to pulse once every couple > of minutes, and go into a hibernation, power saving mode between. > Sounds expensive, but, another thing I will look at. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: DeafMessianic@... > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:41:47 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > > > > don't forget the PT-109 > > and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great place to be! > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > From: Ben Okopnik > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > >> Hi Matt; > >> > >> Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. > >> > >> Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. > > Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most > > important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. > > Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow > > steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an > > inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel > > pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, > > lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile > > (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since > > they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of > > mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull > > thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not > > thousands of times less fragile than cars. > > All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, > > etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that > > have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel > > boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat > > will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit > > squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), > > whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing > > blow. > > I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the > > Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these > > days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very > > impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is > > impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly > > _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. > > Ben > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27267|27211|2011-12-20 18:47:56|Norm Moore|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|The story of the freighter turning around sounds bogus since it can take miles for them to stop once up to speed. I posted a picture of a 50' steel ketch that was T-boned by a freighter doing 20 knots off the Canaries. The helmsman spotted the ship and went below to rouse the crew to help with the sails. Not in time. Broke off both masts, but they jury rigged a sail and made it back to the islands. It's in Files under Collision info folder. I tried adding some MAIB reports of collision investigations, but it hangs up when I try adding it to the folder. In every case I've read, the ship just went right on. In one case the crew of the ship found out they'd sunk a yacht in the English channel only when they made port in China. They were doing 19 knts in heavy fog when the collision occurred. Anyone with an interest in survival situations should read "Adrift" by Steve Callahan. His boat was sunk 3 days out of the Canaries and he drifted across the Atlantic 72 days in a life raft. His experience made him a believer in hard dinghies with tent type covers that can sail, and having an Abandon Ship bag with all your survival gear near the companionway. He tried marketing a hard life raft based on a Walker Bay dink with inflatable gunwalesthat had a drawstring and flap entrance to the tent cover. It didn't catch on. Don't put much faith in EPIRB unless you're in coastal waters, or solar stills for drinking water (get a hand pumped RO filter), above all don't get your hope up that a passing ship will rescue you ala Castaway. 6 ships passed within a mile or less of him and his flares didn't attract any of them. He was picked up by some island fisherman that had come 'round to the Atlantic side of the island to fish. Norm Moore ________________________________ From: David Frantz To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tue, December 20, 2011 3:05:25 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance There are people sick in the head all over the place so a few at sea is not unimaginable. The problem here is would somebody sick in the head turn a freighter around to check on what they ran into? I don't think so. As a small boater everybody wants to blame the freighter but sometimes blame isn't easy to assign. Sent from my iPad On Dec 20, 2011, at 12:59 AM, Aaron wrote: > Can anyone else imagine that a large vessel like a barge or ship ran by someone >that was a little bit sick in the head would run with their light off just >hunting for prey out on the open ocean. > Aaron > > > > ________________________________ > From: Roy > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 8:52 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > > > yeah, you got a point and well said ... > > been learning a lot and it is interesting > > I was thinking about the radar ... what is involved, etc, and was thinking to >ask here ... > and you came in with that post ... appreciate that one ... > > noticed that radar is "power hungry" ... what is it like? sounds like it is a >problem ... how serious is that? I am looking to go very low electric >consumption for overall operations, using led for lighting and 12 V for most >everything else > > am checking on this "AIS" ... sounds like something I can integrate into the >system and find useful ... one question tho ... do those larger boats turn >theirs on, all the time? This one apparently didn't even turn its lights on at >all! > > What about sending aloft a big red balloon or kite and using it for >surveillance of your surroundings with a camera and lights or whatever if this >is a serious problem with the big boats? > > lots of things are miniaturized todays that it should be no problem to make >something useful and not needing much ... 100' to 300' up in air is a lot better >than looking out from 20' above water if that ... sort of having a crow's nest >... it helps? > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Matt Malone wrote: > > From: Matt Malone > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 11:16 PM > > David, I am not sure what I think about a steel hull of ordinary thickness > hit by a freighter at 9 knots.... and possibly pitching and plunging > with a heavy swell (think blunt saw/jack-hammer and multiple impacts). > And if the large ship starts forcing you under, it is the maximum > flotation of your little boat that the contact must endure -- which might > be 50-70 tons (a lot of air space even in a small boat). I am quite sure > that I am not sure about all the seams staying closed and the ports > staying in place either. > > And being hit by a large ship at 9 knots, is more like ramming a steel > wharf edge at 9 knots, and not nose first with the strong direction of > the little boat. Collisions with log booms: if the booms give even a few > inches, that is a tremendous reduction in contact forces. Bouncing on > a reef, yes, impressive, but again, it is bouncing on the strong points > of the bottom of the keel, and a large part of the ballast mass of the > boat is in direct contact with the impact -- only the lighter upper part > of the hull has to be carried by the mid-rift of the hull. Think about > a hammer. When you swing it and hit a rock, how much shock is > there in the handle? Not so much as the face of the head for any > weight of hammer. I also wonder if the pitch and plunge speed > reaches 9 knots in pounding a reef. So in general, I am not sure about > steel boats and big boats in collision, and do not want to find out. > > Ben is quite right about there being a lot of factors. One additional > factor, the impulse drag (not steady state drag) of an object when > one starts to push through the water is equal to the gravitational force > of the mass of the water displaced, plus all other forms of drag. > Note, I did not say the displacement of the boat. Note this is a new > hydrodynamic force that behaves like an inertia, but is caused by > water pressure on the surface of a body when a body tries to > change its motion while submerged. > > So if the freighter hits you, and drags you under and you come to a > sudden stop on its bow bulb, that is an instantaneous force of > 50-70 tons of hydrodynamic geometrical drag trying to rip you in > half like a kleenex, on top of the 50-70 tons of flotation force, on > top of the frictional and wave drag and pitching and plunging drag > of being on the front of a big boat. Once you are moving with the > ship, the hydrodynamic geometrical drag goes to zero, pitching and > plunging drag stays, as do the other types of drag. > > Here is an experiment. Get a stiff piece of styrofoam and wave it > knife-edge in the air, fast, feel its inertia. Now wave it knife-edge > in the water, fast. Feel how it feels like it has gained a lot of fluid > mass that you have to accelerate, like it was filled with water ? > That is actually fluid drag caused by changing your motion in water. > Shake a bottle of water under water and it feels like it has twice the > mass. It makes anything in the water behave like a dead-blow > (lead-shot-filled) hammer. > > Even hitting a wharf at 9 knots is not the same as being hit by a > large boat because in the case of a wharf, less of the boat is under > the water, so there is less hydrodynamic inertial drag trying to pile > you into the wharf for a moment. > > As for there not being a watch, the mother was on watch, had gone > below to make log entries and was just about to climb back on deck > when they were hit. It is easy to lose 5 minutes below when you > intend to do just one thing. She also reported the ship was showing > no lights directly after the collision -- they may not have been showing > any lights before, and 5 minutes at 9 knots is over a kilometer, about > 1.4km. From 1.4 kilometer away, in a storm, the ship could easily have > been invisible from deck level on a small boat, even with lights, given > blown spray and rain -- 50 knot winds reported. The large ship > would have a better chance of seeing the sailboat's mast lights if it > had had a forward observer on duty because both would be significantly > higher off the waves and the effect of blown spray would be reduced. > And who said it was 5 minutes, might have been 10 since she last > looked in that exact direction long enough to pick out a light. It was > an awful night 30 miles offshore. The ship was running without a > forward observer, and apparently saw and ignored the light of the > sailboat -- that is what the internet says, for what that is worth. > > So, in a fibreglass boat, I am worried about big boats and beaches, > and floating debris, and log booms, and reefs, and shipping > containers at any speed.... where you are mostly concerned about > big boats and they have AIS. Really you would still be concerned > about shipping containers and pointy rocks, and well most > of the same things as me, except you would have the knowledge > that you will probably come off better than average, where the > average is in a fibreglass boat. One cannot buy that type of > insurance for a fibreglass boat. > > So, AIS seems cheap and indispensable. Radar is power costly, > > and honestly, I would not run it when I could see. I read about a > pulse radar system that one can set to pulse once every couple > of minutes, and go into a hibernation, power saving mode between. > Sounds expensive, but, another thing I will look at. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: DeafMessianic@... > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:41:47 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > > > > don't forget the PT-109 > > and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great place >to be! > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > From: Ben Okopnik > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > >> Hi Matt; > >> > >> Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this >>case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt >>the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations >>beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on >>the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes >>any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or >>bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much >>difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this >>sort of collision. >> > >> > >> Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different >>and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of >>collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the >>structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. >> > > Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most > > important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. > > Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow > > steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an > > inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel > > pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, > > lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile > > (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since > > they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of > > mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull > > thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not > > thousands of times less fragile than cars. > > All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, > > etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that > > have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel > > boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat > > will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit > > squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), > > whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing > > blow. > > I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the > > Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these > > days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very > > impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is > > impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly > > _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. > > Ben > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27268|27211|2011-12-20 19:53:46|Ben Okopnik|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 03:47:52PM -0800, Norm Moore wrote: > The story of the freighter turning around sounds bogus since it can take miles > for them to stop once up to speed. I posted a picture of a 50' steel ketch that > was T-boned by a freighter doing 20 knots off the Canaries. The helmsman > spotted the ship and went below to rouse the crew to help with the sails. Not in > time. Broke off both masts, but they jury rigged a sail and made it back to the > islands. It's in Files under Collision info folder. I tried adding some MAIB > reports of collision investigations, but it hangs up when I try adding it to the > folder. Norm, feel free to email me those files or links to them; I'll be happy to post them for you. All part of an admin's job. :) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27269|27211|2011-12-21 10:44:38|ngmoore53|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|Is this a new restriction? I've posted pdf documents before and these MAIB reports aren't large. Does everything besides pictures need to be cleared through an administrator? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 03:47:52PM -0800, Norm Moore wrote: > > The story of the freighter turning around sounds bogus since it can take miles > > for them to stop once up to speed. I posted a picture of a 50' steel ketch that > > was T-boned by a freighter doing 20 knots off the Canaries. The helmsman > > spotted the ship and went below to rouse the crew to help with the sails. Not in > > time. Broke off both masts, but they jury rigged a sail and made it back to the > > islands. It's in Files under Collision info folder. I tried adding some MAIB > > reports of collision investigations, but it hangs up when I try adding it to the > > folder. > > Norm, feel free to email me those files or links to them; I'll be happy > to post them for you. All part of an admin's job. :) > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > | 27270|22|2011-12-21 12:40:13|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./229seq5-pic5.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Sequence. Work in progress. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229seq5-pic5.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 27271|27211|2011-12-21 16:10:59|brentswain38|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|Gringo was also T-boned by a freighter, didn't sink. Moitesseir showed a picture of a sister ship to his which was T boned by a freighter and didn't leak a drop afterwards. That simply doesn't happen with a fibreglass boat ,period. Steel drastically improves the odds of not only not sinking , but not even taking on water afterwards. A European sailor I met in Sidney told me of an aluminum yacht in the Caribean which was rolled under the full length of a cruise ship , without taking on any water afterwards. My 31 has similar hull plating thickness to Moitesiers boat. The inertia is so much less that the odds of her having enough momentum to be holed in such a collision are drastically less. They don't build car bodies out of 3/16th plate. Trains don't do 7 knots very often. I was quoted less for the entirely self contained Shipmate AIS which has far smaller current draw than the ones you connect to a computer. I'll probably go that route before heading offshore again. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Matt; > > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. > > Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. > > The other thing here is the need to have a plan for fast ditching at sea. That is a bag you can grab as you are rolling out of your bunk with the required survival gear. Part of that gear should be a number of radios to establish communications. > > The only thing here I really question is the part about the freighter returning and looking at them and then leaving them for dead. If that really did happen then somebody should be held accountable. The problem is people often assume that because they can see you, you can see them. I'm not sure we will ever know exactly what transpired on the freighter but the fact that they returned seems to indicate they where putting in effort to figure out what happened. As always two sides to any story. > > Lastly if there where 4 people on board why was nobody standing watch? It is one thing to have no standing watch if you are single handing a boat or even trying to get by with two, but with 4 on board there should have been somebody in the cockpit to deal with this. > > > > Dave > > On Dec 19, 2011, at 5:35 PM000, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > I just read about the Sleavin case. The Melinda Lee, a 47 foot Compass fibreglass boat, > > mid-cockpit, weighting 14 tons -- that is a pretty heavily built boat. Apparently it was > > t-boned at night in a storm by a freighter doing 9 knots, 30 miles from New Zealand. > > Apparently the boat was spun, and soon after rolled and sank. There was apparently > > no time to grab the EPIRB after the collision. One dead in the collision, 2 lost from a > > lifeboat hours later, and one survivor, rescued about 60 hours after the collision. The > > survivor says the freighter returned, looked at them, and left them for dead. > > > > Their boat might not have been a lot different from mine... can't tell if it was solid or > > cored hull, but the ballast was encapsulated, like my boat. Now, not disputing the > > toughness of steel, but, 60 hours is a long time (more than one sleep). A small amount > > of damage might sink you. If the boat floats for 5 minutes and people are able, one > > might activate their EPIRB reliably. Then one waits -- a pretty good situation, > > considering. I consider this a possible outcome in any boat in a collision with a much > > larger, heavier boat. Had they reached the EPIRB, it might have been one lost, > > three survive. > > > > So I have been investigating other lines of safety. I have been reading about AIS > > receivers (that receive signals sent out by large ships providing location, course, > > speed and name, of the ship) now integrated into radios: > > > > $330-$400: Standard Horizon Matrix GX2150 Marine VHF/DSC transceiver radio and AIS receiver > > > > http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited.com/Standard+Horizon+GX2150+Matrix+AIS.html > > > > Negatives: > > Yes, this radio needs a NEMA-transmitting GPS to use the collision features, and yes, as far > > > > as I can tell, it does not output AIS data as NEMA sentences -- not my preference. > > > > Positives: > > As a receiver, the power requirements (as well as the $ requirements) are a lot smaller than > > radar. AIS will not find the rocks, but, I want it as a minder for the things that move. > > > > My decision: Not ready to commit, but looking. > > > > I have some work to do on my boat, but I will be checking again on what is affordable when > > it is time to put my boat in the water. If I can get an AIS transceiver by that time, for cheap, > > I will do it. If I cannot then it will be an AIS receiver, interfaced to a laptop, recording paths > > and computing separations etc. > > > > Some method to proactively avoid collisions seems like a good thing, especially since the > > radio shown here is only about double the cost of a regular VHF radio right now, and, > > about the cost of 4 tanks of gas in my truck, right now. > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:12:51 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: replating origami hull? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Makes me wonder how many more lives would be saved, and the number of 'Missing at sea" cases ( including the Sleavin family) could be drastically reduced, if designers and builders would do more work on making steel boats more affordable, instead of trying to make them trendier, and more complex and expensive, to pad their own nests. > > > > Far too many designers and builders, completely refuse to give any effort at dealing with the two biggest issues facing most cruisers, time and money, forcing people to put their lives and that of their families at risk , by making flimsy plastic boats the only ones they can afford. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Barney Treadway wrote: > > > >> > > > >> If anyone has any doubts on hull construction material, that picture is worth a thousand words. What other vessel would still be floating? > > > >> > > > >> www.ecomshare.com > > > >> > > > >> Pierre wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> I know that if the preparation for the paint and if there is enough > > > >>> paint on/in the hull it is highly unlikely that corrosion will cause > > > >>> damage severe enough that replating is needed. But if you get hit by a > > > >>> tanker or something else that causes a big dent in your origami hull > > > >>> like this ( click here for picture > > > >>> > > >>> 16-steel-yacht-construction-steelhull.jpg> ), is it possible to > > > >>> replate that part of the hull? > > > >>> Pierre > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 27272|27211|2011-12-21 16:13:31|brentswain38|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|Good post , well stated.I fully agree. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Matt; > > > > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. > > > > Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. > > Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most > important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. > Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow > steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an > inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel > pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, > lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile > (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since > they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of > mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull > thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not > thousands of times less fragile than cars. > > All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, > etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that > have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel > boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat > will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit > squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), > whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing > blow. > > I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the > Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these > days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very > impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is > impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly > _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > | 27273|27211|2011-12-21 16:40:27|brentswain38|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|I've had one circle me. I thin the best survival plan, or equipment Callahan could have had would have been a steel hull under him. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > The story of the freighter turning around sounds bogus since it can take miles > for them to stop once up to speed. I posted a picture of a 50' steel ketch that > was T-boned by a freighter doing 20 knots off the Canaries. The helmsman > spotted the ship and went below to rouse the crew to help with the sails. Not in > time. Broke off both masts, but they jury rigged a sail and made it back to the > islands. It's in Files under Collision info folder. I tried adding some MAIB > reports of collision investigations, but it hangs up when I try adding it to the > folder. In every case I've read, the ship just went right on. In one case the > crew of the ship found out they'd sunk a yacht in the English channel only when > they made port in China. They were doing 19 knts in heavy fog when the > collision occurred. Anyone with an interest in survival situations should read > "Adrift" by Steve Callahan. His boat was sunk 3 days out of the Canaries and he > drifted across the Atlantic 72 days in a life raft. His experience made him a > believer in hard dinghies with tent type covers that can sail, and having an > Abandon Ship bag with all your survival gear near the companionway. He tried > marketing a hard life raft based on a Walker Bay dink with inflatable > gunwalesthat had a drawstring and flap entrance to the tent cover. It didn't > catch on. Don't put much faith in EPIRB unless you're in coastal waters, or > solar stills for drinking water (get a hand pumped RO filter), above all don't > get your hope up that a passing ship will rescue you ala Castaway. 6 ships > passed within a mile or less of him and his flares didn't attract any of them. > He was picked up by some island fisherman that had come 'round to the Atlantic > side of the island to fish. > > Norm Moore > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Frantz > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Tue, December 20, 2011 3:05:25 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > There are people sick in the head all over the place so a few at sea is not > unimaginable. The problem here is would somebody sick in the head turn a > freighter around to check on what they ran into? I don't think so. > > > As a small boater everybody wants to blame the freighter but sometimes blame > isn't easy to assign. > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Dec 20, 2011, at 12:59 AM, Aaron wrote: > > > Can anyone else imagine that a large vessel like a barge or ship ran by someone > >that was a little bit sick in the head would run with their light off just > >hunting for prey out on the open ocean. > > Aaron > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Roy > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 8:52 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > > > > > > > > > yeah, you got a point and well said ... > > > > been learning a lot and it is interesting > > > > I was thinking about the radar ... what is involved, etc, and was thinking to > >ask here ... > > and you came in with that post ... appreciate that one ... > > > > noticed that radar is "power hungry" ... what is it like? sounds like it is a > >problem ... how serious is that? I am looking to go very low electric > >consumption for overall operations, using led for lighting and 12 V for most > >everything else > > > > am checking on this "AIS" ... sounds like something I can integrate into the > >system and find useful ... one question tho ... do those larger boats turn > >theirs on, all the time? This one apparently didn't even turn its lights on at > >all! > > > > What about sending aloft a big red balloon or kite and using it for > >surveillance of your surroundings with a camera and lights or whatever if this > >is a serious problem with the big boats? > > > > lots of things are miniaturized todays that it should be no problem to make > >something useful and not needing much ... 100' to 300' up in air is a lot better > >than looking out from 20' above water if that ... sort of having a crow's nest > >... it helps? > > > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > From: Matt Malone > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 11:16 PM > > > > David, I am not sure what I think about a steel hull of ordinary thickness > > hit by a freighter at 9 knots.... and possibly pitching and plunging > > with a heavy swell (think blunt saw/jack-hammer and multiple impacts). > > And if the large ship starts forcing you under, it is the maximum > > flotation of your little boat that the contact must endure -- which might > > be 50-70 tons (a lot of air space even in a small boat). I am quite sure > > that I am not sure about all the seams staying closed and the ports > > staying in place either. > > > > And being hit by a large ship at 9 knots, is more like ramming a steel > > wharf edge at 9 knots, and not nose first with the strong direction of > > the little boat. Collisions with log booms: if the booms give even a few > > inches, that is a tremendous reduction in contact forces. Bouncing on > > a reef, yes, impressive, but again, it is bouncing on the strong points > > of the bottom of the keel, and a large part of the ballast mass of the > > boat is in direct contact with the impact -- only the lighter upper part > > of the hull has to be carried by the mid-rift of the hull. Think about > > a hammer. When you swing it and hit a rock, how much shock is > > there in the handle? Not so much as the face of the head for any > > weight of hammer. I also wonder if the pitch and plunge speed > > reaches 9 knots in pounding a reef. So in general, I am not sure about > > steel boats and big boats in collision, and do not want to find out. > > > > Ben is quite right about there being a lot of factors. One additional > > factor, the impulse drag (not steady state drag) of an object when > > one starts to push through the water is equal to the gravitational force > > of the mass of the water displaced, plus all other forms of drag. > > Note, I did not say the displacement of the boat. Note this is a new > > hydrodynamic force that behaves like an inertia, but is caused by > > water pressure on the surface of a body when a body tries to > > change its motion while submerged. > > > > So if the freighter hits you, and drags you under and you come to a > > sudden stop on its bow bulb, that is an instantaneous force of > > 50-70 tons of hydrodynamic geometrical drag trying to rip you in > > half like a kleenex, on top of the 50-70 tons of flotation force, on > > top of the frictional and wave drag and pitching and plunging drag > > of being on the front of a big boat. Once you are moving with the > > ship, the hydrodynamic geometrical drag goes to zero, pitching and > > plunging drag stays, as do the other types of drag. > > > > Here is an experiment. Get a stiff piece of styrofoam and wave it > > knife-edge in the air, fast, feel its inertia. Now wave it knife-edge > > in the water, fast. Feel how it feels like it has gained a lot of fluid > > mass that you have to accelerate, like it was filled with water ? > > That is actually fluid drag caused by changing your motion in water. > > Shake a bottle of water under water and it feels like it has twice the > > mass. It makes anything in the water behave like a dead-blow > > (lead-shot-filled) hammer. > > > > Even hitting a wharf at 9 knots is not the same as being hit by a > > large boat because in the case of a wharf, less of the boat is under > > the water, so there is less hydrodynamic inertial drag trying to pile > > you into the wharf for a moment. > > > > As for there not being a watch, the mother was on watch, had gone > > below to make log entries and was just about to climb back on deck > > when they were hit. It is easy to lose 5 minutes below when you > > intend to do just one thing. She also reported the ship was showing > > no lights directly after the collision -- they may not have been showing > > any lights before, and 5 minutes at 9 knots is over a kilometer, about > > 1.4km. From 1.4 kilometer away, in a storm, the ship could easily have > > been invisible from deck level on a small boat, even with lights, given > > blown spray and rain -- 50 knot winds reported. The large ship > > would have a better chance of seeing the sailboat's mast lights if it > > had had a forward observer on duty because both would be significantly > > higher off the waves and the effect of blown spray would be reduced. > > And who said it was 5 minutes, might have been 10 since she last > > looked in that exact direction long enough to pick out a light. It was > > an awful night 30 miles offshore. The ship was running without a > > forward observer, and apparently saw and ignored the light of the > > sailboat -- that is what the internet says, for what that is worth. > > > > So, in a fibreglass boat, I am worried about big boats and beaches, > > and floating debris, and log booms, and reefs, and shipping > > containers at any speed.... where you are mostly concerned about > > big boats and they have AIS. Really you would still be concerned > > about shipping containers and pointy rocks, and well most > > of the same things as me, except you would have the knowledge > > that you will probably come off better than average, where the > > average is in a fibreglass boat. One cannot buy that type of > > insurance for a fibreglass boat. > > > > So, AIS seems cheap and indispensable. Radar is power costly, > > > > and honestly, I would not run it when I could see. I read about a > > pulse radar system that one can set to pulse once every couple > > of minutes, and go into a hibernation, power saving mode between. > > Sounds expensive, but, another thing I will look at. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: DeafMessianic@... > > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:41:47 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don't forget the PT-109 > > > > and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great place > >to be! > > > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM > > > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > > > >> Hi Matt; > > > >> > > > >> Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this > >>case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt > >>the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations > >>beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on > >>the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes > >>any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or > >>bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much > >>difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this > >>sort of collision. > >> > > > >> > > > >> Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different > >>and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of > >>collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the > >>structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. > >> > > > > Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most > > > > important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. > > > > Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow > > > > steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an > > > > inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel > > > > pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, > > > > lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile > > > > (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since > > > > they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of > > > > mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull > > > > thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not > > > > thousands of times less fragile than cars. > > > > All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, > > > > etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that > > > > have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel > > > > boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat > > > > will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit > > > > squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), > > > > whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing > > > > blow. > > > > I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the > > > > Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these > > > > days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very > > > > impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is > > > > impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly > > > > _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. > > > > Ben > > > > -- > > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27274|27211|2011-12-21 16:50:31|brentswain38|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|The longitudinal tensile strength of a 36 is 2.16 million pounds, not counting logitudinals. Hard to imagine that kind of inertia being aquired in a boat around ten tons.Kinda like trying to get that kind of force on a free floating styrofoam bead. None of the plate on Gringo nor the Joshua class hull were holed nor torn,so the odds of being torn in in half are less than the odds of being hit by an asteroid. I'd be less worried about the bulbus bow of a freighter, which would push you aside and prevent you from going under the ship. A barge would be far more dangerous. I think I could survive both , but the latter would be afar rougher ride. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Gringo was also T-boned by a freighter, didn't sink. Moitesseir showed a picture of a sister ship to his which was T boned by a freighter and didn't leak a drop afterwards. That simply doesn't happen with a fibreglass boat ,period. Steel drastically improves the odds of not only not sinking , but not even taking on water afterwards. A European sailor I met in Sidney told me of an aluminum yacht in the Caribean which was rolled under the full length of a cruise ship , without taking on any water afterwards. > My 31 has similar hull plating thickness to Moitesiers boat. The inertia is so much less that the odds of her having enough momentum to be holed in such a collision are drastically less. > They don't build car bodies out of 3/16th plate. Trains don't do 7 knots very often. > I was quoted less for the entirely self contained Shipmate AIS which has far smaller current draw than the ones you connect to a computer. I'll probably go that route before heading offshore again. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > > > Hi Matt; > > > > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. > > > > Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. > > > > The other thing here is the need to have a plan for fast ditching at sea. That is a bag you can grab as you are rolling out of your bunk with the required survival gear. Part of that gear should be a number of radios to establish communications. > > > > The only thing here I really question is the part about the freighter returning and looking at them and then leaving them for dead. If that really did happen then somebody should be held accountable. The problem is people often assume that because they can see you, you can see them. I'm not sure we will ever know exactly what transpired on the freighter but the fact that they returned seems to indicate they where putting in effort to figure out what happened. As always two sides to any story. > > > > Lastly if there where 4 people on board why was nobody standing watch? It is one thing to have no standing watch if you are single handing a boat or even trying to get by with two, but with 4 on board there should have been somebody in the cockpit to deal with this. > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > On Dec 19, 2011, at 5:35 PM000, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I just read about the Sleavin case. The Melinda Lee, a 47 foot Compass fibreglass boat, > > > mid-cockpit, weighting 14 tons -- that is a pretty heavily built boat. Apparently it was > > > t-boned at night in a storm by a freighter doing 9 knots, 30 miles from New Zealand. > > > Apparently the boat was spun, and soon after rolled and sank. There was apparently > > > no time to grab the EPIRB after the collision. One dead in the collision, 2 lost from a > > > lifeboat hours later, and one survivor, rescued about 60 hours after the collision. The > > > survivor says the freighter returned, looked at them, and left them for dead. > > > > > > Their boat might not have been a lot different from mine... can't tell if it was solid or > > > cored hull, but the ballast was encapsulated, like my boat. Now, not disputing the > > > toughness of steel, but, 60 hours is a long time (more than one sleep). A small amount > > > of damage might sink you. If the boat floats for 5 minutes and people are able, one > > > might activate their EPIRB reliably. Then one waits -- a pretty good situation, > > > considering. I consider this a possible outcome in any boat in a collision with a much > > > larger, heavier boat. Had they reached the EPIRB, it might have been one lost, > > > three survive. > > > > > > So I have been investigating other lines of safety. I have been reading about AIS > > > receivers (that receive signals sent out by large ships providing location, course, > > > speed and name, of the ship) now integrated into radios: > > > > > > $330-$400: Standard Horizon Matrix GX2150 Marine VHF/DSC transceiver radio and AIS receiver > > > > > > http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited.com/Standard+Horizon+GX2150+Matrix+AIS.html > > > > > > Negatives: > > > Yes, this radio needs a NEMA-transmitting GPS to use the collision features, and yes, as far > > > > > > as I can tell, it does not output AIS data as NEMA sentences -- not my preference. > > > > > > Positives: > > > As a receiver, the power requirements (as well as the $ requirements) are a lot smaller than > > > radar. AIS will not find the rocks, but, I want it as a minder for the things that move. > > > > > > My decision: Not ready to commit, but looking. > > > > > > I have some work to do on my boat, but I will be checking again on what is affordable when > > > it is time to put my boat in the water. If I can get an AIS transceiver by that time, for cheap, > > > I will do it. If I cannot then it will be an AIS receiver, interfaced to a laptop, recording paths > > > and computing separations etc. > > > > > > Some method to proactively avoid collisions seems like a good thing, especially since the > > > radio shown here is only about double the cost of a regular VHF radio right now, and, > > > about the cost of 4 tanks of gas in my truck, right now. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:12:51 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: replating origami hull? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Makes me wonder how many more lives would be saved, and the number of 'Missing at sea" cases ( including the Sleavin family) could be drastically reduced, if designers and builders would do more work on making steel boats more affordable, instead of trying to make them trendier, and more complex and expensive, to pad their own nests. > > > > > > Far too many designers and builders, completely refuse to give any effort at dealing with the two biggest issues facing most cruisers, time and money, forcing people to put their lives and that of their families at risk , by making flimsy plastic boats the only ones they can afford. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Barney Treadway wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> If anyone has any doubts on hull construction material, that picture is worth a thousand words. What other vessel would still be floating? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> www.ecomshare.com > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Pierre wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> I know that if the preparation for the paint and if there is enough > > > > > >>> paint on/in the hull it is highly unlikely that corrosion will cause > > > > > >>> damage severe enough that replating is needed. But if you get hit by a > > > > > >>> tanker or something else that causes a big dent in your origami hull > > > > > >>> like this ( click here for picture > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> 16-steel-yacht-construction-steelhull.jpg> ), is it possible to > > > > > >>> replate that part of the hull? > > > > > >>> Pierre > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 27275|27211|2011-12-21 22:32:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 03:44:34PM -0000, ngmoore53 wrote: > Is this a new restriction? I've posted pdf documents before and these MAIB reports aren't large. Does everything besides pictures need to be cleared through an administrator? There's no restriction that I'm aware of (although with Yahoo, you never know.) I was just offering a hand, that's all. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27276|22|2011-12-22 10:46:43|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./229seq6-OR31-11.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Cockpit; decking; side cabin; pillars You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229seq6-OR31-11.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 27277|27233|2011-12-22 18:37:43|Mark Hamill|Re: DIY Solar Panels|Scott--thanks for the sunelec.com site--amazing prices--really appreciate it. MarkHamill ----- Original Message ----- From: scott To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:40 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels You can buy solar laminates. Already assembled into panels just not frame or electrical connection box on them from sunelec.com for 58c a watt. :) hard to beat that. You have to buy min order of 10 of them though.. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sunbear" wrote: > > A friend is building panels to use on his RV in Alberta (where they actually have sun)using info from this site and solar cells purchased at Ebay. Haven't priced out the enire cost to see if actually cost effective. Anybody done this before? http://solartechtown.com/how-to-build-a-solar-panel/ > This is the Ebay cell section. > http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=solar+cells&_sacat=See-All-Categories > A Merry Christmas and great New Year to everyone. MarkH > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27278|27278|2011-12-23 07:11:09|Denis Buggy|Re: happy christmas from ireland|NOLLAIG SHONA DHUIT ( christmas peace to all) even BEN . Denis Buggy Ireland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27279|22|2011-12-23 12:01:03|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./229seq7-pic5.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Aperture in skeg; shaft log; beams; superstructure You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229seq7-pic5.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 27280|27211|2011-12-23 13:46:43|Mark Hamill|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|I heard a first hand account of the collision at a Bluewater Cruising meeting in which the freighter hit the sailboat and then watched them in the water for a bit doing nothing and then leaving them to die. A chinese freighter. If you saw the recent video of the toddler being run over multiple times in a chinese market it does give some idea of the cultural bias towards not helping anyone but your family. A chinese videographer acquaintance has video footage of some things in the same line that are truly appalling. The sailboat story was really upsetting. The chinese captain still sails between china and canada as of about 6 years ago. ----- Original Message ----- From: Norm Moore To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance The story of the freighter turning around sounds bogus since it can take miles for them to stop once up to speed. I posted a picture of a 50' steel ketch that was T-boned by a freighter doing 20 knots off the Canaries. The helmsman spotted the ship and went below to rouse the crew to help with the sails. Not in time. Broke off both masts, but they jury rigged a sail and made it back to the islands. It's in Files under Collision info folder. I tried adding some MAIB reports of collision investigations, but it hangs up when I try adding it to the folder. In every case I've read, the ship just went right on. In one case the crew of the ship found out they'd sunk a yacht in the English channel only when they made port in China. They were doing 19 knts in heavy fog when the collision occurred. Anyone with an interest in survival situations should read "Adrift" by Steve Callahan. His boat was sunk 3 days out of the Canaries and he drifted across the Atlantic 72 days in a life raft. His experience made him a believer in hard dinghies with tent type covers that can sail, and having an Abandon Ship bag with all your survival gear near the companionway. He tried marketing a hard life raft based on a Walker Bay dink with inflatable gunwalesthat had a drawstring and flap entrance to the tent cover. It didn't catch on. Don't put much faith in EPIRB unless you're in coastal waters, or solar stills for drinking water (get a hand pumped RO filter), above all don't get your hope up that a passing ship will rescue you ala Castaway. 6 ships passed within a mile or less of him and his flares didn't attract any of them. He was picked up by some island fisherman that had come 'round to the Atlantic side of the island to fish. Norm Moore ________________________________ From: David Frantz To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tue, December 20, 2011 3:05:25 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance There are people sick in the head all over the place so a few at sea is not unimaginable. The problem here is would somebody sick in the head turn a freighter around to check on what they ran into? I don't think so. As a small boater everybody wants to blame the freighter but sometimes blame isn't easy to assign. Sent from my iPad On Dec 20, 2011, at 12:59 AM, Aaron wrote: > Can anyone else imagine that a large vessel like a barge or ship ran by someone >that was a little bit sick in the head would run with their light off just >hunting for prey out on the open ocean. > Aaron > > > > ________________________________ > From: Roy > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 8:52 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > > > yeah, you got a point and well said ... > > been learning a lot and it is interesting > > I was thinking about the radar ... what is involved, etc, and was thinking to >ask here ... > and you came in with that post ... appreciate that one ... > > noticed that radar is "power hungry" ... what is it like? sounds like it is a >problem ... how serious is that? I am looking to go very low electric >consumption for overall operations, using led for lighting and 12 V for most >everything else > > am checking on this "AIS" ... sounds like something I can integrate into the >system and find useful ... one question tho ... do those larger boats turn >theirs on, all the time? This one apparently didn't even turn its lights on at >all! > > What about sending aloft a big red balloon or kite and using it for >surveillance of your surroundings with a camera and lights or whatever if this >is a serious problem with the big boats? > > lots of things are miniaturized todays that it should be no problem to make >something useful and not needing much ... 100' to 300' up in air is a lot better >than looking out from 20' above water if that ... sort of having a crow's nest >... it helps? > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Matt Malone wrote: > > From: Matt Malone > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 11:16 PM > > David, I am not sure what I think about a steel hull of ordinary thickness > hit by a freighter at 9 knots.... and possibly pitching and plunging > with a heavy swell (think blunt saw/jack-hammer and multiple impacts). > And if the large ship starts forcing you under, it is the maximum > flotation of your little boat that the contact must endure -- which might > be 50-70 tons (a lot of air space even in a small boat). I am quite sure > that I am not sure about all the seams staying closed and the ports > staying in place either. > > And being hit by a large ship at 9 knots, is more like ramming a steel > wharf edge at 9 knots, and not nose first with the strong direction of > the little boat. Collisions with log booms: if the booms give even a few > inches, that is a tremendous reduction in contact forces. Bouncing on > a reef, yes, impressive, but again, it is bouncing on the strong points > of the bottom of the keel, and a large part of the ballast mass of the > boat is in direct contact with the impact -- only the lighter upper part > of the hull has to be carried by the mid-rift of the hull. Think about > a hammer. When you swing it and hit a rock, how much shock is > there in the handle? Not so much as the face of the head for any > weight of hammer. I also wonder if the pitch and plunge speed > reaches 9 knots in pounding a reef. So in general, I am not sure about > steel boats and big boats in collision, and do not want to find out. > > Ben is quite right about there being a lot of factors. One additional > factor, the impulse drag (not steady state drag) of an object when > one starts to push through the water is equal to the gravitational force > of the mass of the water displaced, plus all other forms of drag. > Note, I did not say the displacement of the boat. Note this is a new > hydrodynamic force that behaves like an inertia, but is caused by > water pressure on the surface of a body when a body tries to > change its motion while submerged. > > So if the freighter hits you, and drags you under and you come to a > sudden stop on its bow bulb, that is an instantaneous force of > 50-70 tons of hydrodynamic geometrical drag trying to rip you in > half like a kleenex, on top of the 50-70 tons of flotation force, on > top of the frictional and wave drag and pitching and plunging drag > of being on the front of a big boat. Once you are moving with the > ship, the hydrodynamic geometrical drag goes to zero, pitching and > plunging drag stays, as do the other types of drag. > > Here is an experiment. Get a stiff piece of styrofoam and wave it > knife-edge in the air, fast, feel its inertia. Now wave it knife-edge > in the water, fast. Feel how it feels like it has gained a lot of fluid > mass that you have to accelerate, like it was filled with water ? > That is actually fluid drag caused by changing your motion in water. > Shake a bottle of water under water and it feels like it has twice the > mass. It makes anything in the water behave like a dead-blow > (lead-shot-filled) hammer. > > Even hitting a wharf at 9 knots is not the same as being hit by a > large boat because in the case of a wharf, less of the boat is under > the water, so there is less hydrodynamic inertial drag trying to pile > you into the wharf for a moment. > > As for there not being a watch, the mother was on watch, had gone > below to make log entries and was just about to climb back on deck > when they were hit. It is easy to lose 5 minutes below when you > intend to do just one thing. She also reported the ship was showing > no lights directly after the collision -- they may not have been showing > any lights before, and 5 minutes at 9 knots is over a kilometer, about > 1.4km. From 1.4 kilometer away, in a storm, the ship could easily have > been invisible from deck level on a small boat, even with lights, given > blown spray and rain -- 50 knot winds reported. The large ship > would have a better chance of seeing the sailboat's mast lights if it > had had a forward observer on duty because both would be significantly > higher off the waves and the effect of blown spray would be reduced. > And who said it was 5 minutes, might have been 10 since she last > looked in that exact direction long enough to pick out a light. It was > an awful night 30 miles offshore. The ship was running without a > forward observer, and apparently saw and ignored the light of the > sailboat -- that is what the internet says, for what that is worth. > > So, in a fibreglass boat, I am worried about big boats and beaches, > and floating debris, and log booms, and reefs, and shipping > containers at any speed.... where you are mostly concerned about > big boats and they have AIS. Really you would still be concerned > about shipping containers and pointy rocks, and well most > of the same things as me, except you would have the knowledge > that you will probably come off better than average, where the > average is in a fibreglass boat. One cannot buy that type of > insurance for a fibreglass boat. > > So, AIS seems cheap and indispensable. Radar is power costly, > > and honestly, I would not run it when I could see. I read about a > pulse radar system that one can set to pulse once every couple > of minutes, and go into a hibernation, power saving mode between. > Sounds expensive, but, another thing I will look at. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: DeafMessianic@... > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:41:47 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > > > > > > don't forget the PT-109 > > and in this scenario, being 200' under the point of collision is a great place >to be! > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > From: Ben Okopnik > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel hull and collision avoidance > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 9:25 PM > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:43:54PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > >> Hi Matt; > >> > >> Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this >>case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt >>the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations >>beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on >>the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes >>any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or >>bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much >>difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this >>sort of collision. >> > >> > >> Now before going on I realize the manufacture of cars is completely different >>and that they are designed to protect the drivers in a different sort of >>collision. The fact remains though that the difference in thickness of the >>structures means one is going to perform poorly against the other. >> > > Not true, since thickness is neither the only nor even the most > > important factor. Take a styrofoam pellet and float it on the water. > > Now, hit it with a freighter at 9 knots. Damage, nil. Ditto a 1" hollow > > steel ball, where the thickness of the steel is, say, .010". Ditto an > > inflated plastic bag with .001" walls. Ditto a 6'-long piece of steel > > pipe (assuming you've got it floating somehow.) Cars, given their mass, > > lack of flexibility, _and_ thickness of material, are extremely fragile > > (and this fully accords with the interests of car manufacturers, since > > they need to sell new ones); steel boats, not so much. Still lots of > > mass, but they can be shifted relatively easily - and their hull > > thickness and the rigidity of their structure make them hundreds if not > > thousands of times less fragile than cars. > > All sorts of things - flexibility, mass, thickness per unit of mass, > > etc. - play into this scenario. Frankly, having seen steel boats that > > have run up on reefs at full speed and having seen pictures of steel > > boats that had been t-boned by freighters, I'd say that a steel boat > > will survive being t-boned in all but the worst-case situations (hit > > squarely amidships, possibly rolled under and run over by the big ship), > > whereas a fiberglass one stands almost no chance in even a glancing > > blow. > > I'm going to go even further than Brent and say that crossing the > > Pacific without a steel boat (or an incredibly tough glass one) these > > days is irresponsible. Freighters are a relatively rare, though very > > impressive, collision risk - but that mass of junk from Fukushima is > > impressively broad, and full of heavy, hard objects (possibly > > _including_ freighters.) Nothing to play games with. > > Ben > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27281|27211|2011-12-23 15:36:33|wild_explorer|Re: Steel hull and collision avoidance|It is not valid to compare a boat hit by a freighter ship with a car hit by a locomotive.... Easy test - try to move side-way(push/pull) 15 tonne truck on a land and 15 tonne boat on water... Which one will you be able to move by yourself? ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Matt; > > Realistically do you really think a steel boat would make a difference in this case. That is getting T-Boned by a sizable freighter? I'm not one to doubt the value of steel for a boat, I just think sometimes people have expectations beyond reality. Look at this way, say you are on dry land and you are stuck on the railroad tracks with an on coming locomotive, do you really think it makes any difference if you are in a fiberglass car or not, how about a pickup or bigger truck. Physical size is a factor here and frankly in don't see much difference in a steel boat being cut and crumbled and a fiberglass one in this sort of collision. > | 27282|27282|2011-12-23 17:42:57|Pierre|Skeg cooler question|I was wondering if there was anything to prevent rust in the skeg cooler, so i did a search on the group and found a post by Brent on this subject: "With 50 % antifreeze and no outside source of oxygen , corrosion is not a problem. I do as much work as possible, and give it a few good whacks to help any bits fall out,before puting the bottom on,letting all the bits and pieces drop out before putting the bottom on. I also use a pump guard screen in the return line going to the engine. I've never had a problem nor reason to worry about coating the inside of the skeg. If coatings began to break down, leaving chips in the coolant , that would cause far more problems than it would solve. Brent" So now i'm wondering if there is a reason why the skeg is only 50% full of antifreeze and not full? Seem to me that that there would be a smaller risk of corrosion in the skeg if it would be filled to the top. Thanks Pierre| 27283|27282|2011-12-23 18:19:37|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Skeg cooler question|Pierre, I believe he means a 50% antifreeze/ 50% water mixture, and the skeg is completely full. Gary H. Lucas From: Pierre Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 5:42 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Skeg cooler question I was wondering if there was anything to prevent rust in the skeg cooler, so i did a search on the group and found a post by Brent on this subject: "With 50 % antifreeze and no outside source of oxygen , corrosion is not a problem. I do as much work as possible, and give it a few good whacks to help any bits fall out,before puting the bottom on,letting all the bits and pieces drop out before putting the bottom on. I also use a pump guard screen in the return line going to the engine. I've never had a problem nor reason to worry about coating the inside of the skeg. If coatings began to break down, leaving chips in the coolant , that would cause far more problems than it would solve. Brent" So now i'm wondering if there is a reason why the skeg is only 50% full of antifreeze and not full? Seem to me that that there would be a smaller risk of corrosion in the skeg if it would be filled to the top. Thanks Pierre Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27284|27282|2011-12-23 19:07:37|Barney Treadway|Re: Skeg cooler question|I think its 50% antifreeze and the rest water, not 50% total volume. www.ecomshare.com Pierre wrote: >I was wondering if there was anything to prevent rust in the skeg cooler, so i did a search on the group and found a post by Brent on this subject: > >"With 50 % antifreeze and no outside source of oxygen , corrosion is >not a problem. I do as much work as possible, and give it a few >good whacks to help any bits fall out,before puting the bottom >on,letting all the bits and pieces drop out before putting the bottom >on. I also use a pump guard screen in the return line going to the >engine. I've never had a problem nor reason to worry about coating the >inside of the skeg. If coatings began to break down, leaving chips in >the coolant , that would cause far more problems than it would solve. >Brent" > >So now i'm wondering if there is a reason why the skeg is only 50% full of antifreeze and not full? Seem to me that that there would be a smaller risk of corrosion in the skeg if it would be filled to the top. > >Thanks >Pierre > | 27285|27282|2011-12-23 21:07:20|Pierre|Re: Skeg cooler question|Alright guys, That makes a lot of sense, thanks for the clarification. Pierre| 27286|27233|2011-12-24 01:45:03|scott|Re: DIY Solar Panels|I don't have a use for them right now but I keep thinking about purchasing some and just storing them for a few years to till I start to build the off grid system I want for the house. It is a hell of a deal. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Scott--thanks for the sunelec.com site--amazing prices--really appreciate it. MarkHamill > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: scott > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:40 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > > You can buy solar laminates. Already assembled into panels just not frame or electrical connection box on them from sunelec.com for 58c a watt. :) > > hard to beat that. You have to buy min order of 10 of them though.. > > Scott > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sunbear" wrote: > > > > A friend is building panels to use on his RV in Alberta (where they actually have sun)using info from this site and solar cells purchased at Ebay. Haven't priced out the enire cost to see if actually cost effective. Anybody done this before? http://solartechtown.com/how-to-build-a-solar-panel/ > > This is the Ebay cell section. > > http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=solar+cells&_sacat=See-All-Categories > > A Merry Christmas and great New Year to everyone. MarkH > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27287|27233|2011-12-24 01:50:14|Brian Stannard|Re: DIY Solar Panels|It is a good price but they are polycrystalline, not the more efficient monocrystalline cells as far as I can tell. On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 10:45 PM, scott wrote: > ** > > > I don't have a use for them right now but I keep thinking about purchasing > some and just storing them for a few years to till I start to build the off > grid system I want for the house. It is a hell of a deal. > Scott > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > > > Scott--thanks for the sunelec.com site--amazing prices--really > appreciate it. MarkHamill > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: scott > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:40 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > > > > > > You can buy solar laminates. Already assembled into panels just not > frame or electrical connection box on them from sunelec.com for 58c a > watt. :) > > > > hard to beat that. You have to buy min order of 10 of them though.. > > > > Scott > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sunbear" wrote: > > > > > > A friend is building panels to use on his RV in Alberta (where they > actually have sun)using info from this site and solar cells purchased at > Ebay. Haven't priced out the enire cost to see if actually cost effective. > Anybody done this before? > http://solartechtown.com/how-to-build-a-solar-panel/ > > > This is the Ebay cell section. > > > > http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=solar+cells&_sacat=See-All-Categories > > > A Merry Christmas and great New Year to everyone. MarkH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27288|27233|2011-12-24 13:05:19|Matt Malone|Re: DIY Solar Panels|It will be an even better deal later. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: audeojude@... Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 06:45:01 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels I don't have a use for them right now but I keep thinking about purchasing some and just storing them for a few years to till I start to build the off grid system I want for the house. It is a hell of a deal. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Scott--thanks for the sunelec.com site--amazing prices--really appreciate it. MarkHamill > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: scott > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:40 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > > You can buy solar laminates. Already assembled into panels just not frame or electrical connection box on them from sunelec.com for 58c a watt. :) > > hard to beat that. You have to buy min order of 10 of them though.. > > Scott > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sunbear" wrote: > > > > A friend is building panels to use on his RV in Alberta (where they actually have sun)using info from this site and solar cells purchased at Ebay. Haven't priced out the enire cost to see if actually cost effective. Anybody done this before? http://solartechtown.com/how-to-build-a-solar-panel/ > > This is the Ebay cell section. > > http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=solar+cells&_sacat=See-All-Categories > > A Merry Christmas and great New Year to everyone. MarkH > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27289|27282|2011-12-24 13:12:41|Matt Malone|Another Skeg cooler question|About how big should a skeg cooler be for a 30 hp gasoline engine ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: piersailor@... Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 02:07:17 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg cooler question Alright guys, That makes a lot of sense, thanks for the clarification. Pierre [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27290|27290|2011-12-24 14:01:34|Pierre|aft lower shrouds|I was reading some of the older posts today and I stumbled on this message by Brent: "Putting the aft lowers halfway up the top panel is to support the staysail stay. I prefer to put them both at the spreaders and use a running back stay when using the staysail." For someone using the staysail all the time, i'm thinking it would be easier to have 2 sets of lowers, 1 set that goes halfway up the top panel and the second one that goes up to the spreaders. That way the need for running backs stays would be eliminated... In the building stage of the hull, it wouldn't be hard to add two extra chain plates a few inches aft of the existing ones for that purpose. Now what i'm wondering is if there is a reason why no one has done this?(as far as I know) Thanks Pierre| 27291|27290|2011-12-24 14:55:22|Brian Stannard|Re: aft lower shrouds|Pierre The extra forward lowers you are thinking of would be ineffectual. There will be a staysail stay going forward. The aft lowers you are thinking about will have the same issue as the normal aft lowers going halfway up the top panel. They will add a lot of compression while not giving the mast as much aft support as running backstays. On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Pierre wrote: > ** > > > I was reading some of the older posts today and I stumbled on this message > by Brent: > > "Putting the aft lowers halfway up the top panel is to support the > staysail stay. I prefer to put them both at the spreaders and use a > running back stay when using the staysail." > > For someone using the staysail all the time, i'm thinking it would be > easier to have 2 sets of lowers, 1 set that goes halfway up the top panel > and the second one that goes up to the spreaders. That way the need for > running backs stays would be eliminated... > > In the building stage of the hull, it wouldn't be hard to add two extra > chain plates a few inches aft of the existing ones for that purpose. > > Now what i'm wondering is if there is a reason why no one has done > this?(as far as I know) > > Thanks > Pierre > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27292|27290|2011-12-24 15:02:03|Paul Wilson|Re: aft lower shrouds|I am not a fan of swept back stays since they cause a lot of chafe on the mainsail when it is let out. I would do as Brent as keep a single set down low. Normally I don't use the runners unless the boat is really pumping in a seaway or the wind is over 20 knots but I have a pretty stiff mast. My runners are just wire to rope tails which I put to a free cockpit winch. It only takes a few seconds to put them on. Cheers, Paul On 25/12/2011 8:01 a.m., Pierre wrote: > > I was reading some of the older posts today and I stumbled on this > message by Brent: > > "Putting the aft lowers halfway up the top panel is to support the > staysail stay. I prefer to put them both at the spreaders and use a > running back stay when using the staysail." > > For someone using the staysail all the time, i'm thinking it would be > easier to have 2 sets of lowers, 1 set that goes halfway up the top > panel and the second one that goes up to the spreaders. That way the > need for running backs stays would be eliminated... > > In the building stage of the hull, it wouldn't be hard to add two > extra chain plates a few inches aft of the existing ones for that purpose. > > Now what i'm wondering is if there is a reason why no one has done > this?(as far as I know) > > Thanks > Pierre > > | 27293|27290|2011-12-24 15:06:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: aft lower shrouds|On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 09:00:51AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > I am not a fan of swept back stays since they cause a lot of chafe on > the mainsail when it is let out. Ditto here, and for exactly the same reasons. Running backs are a wonderful thing when you need them - it's lovely to watch a mast stiffen right up in the kind of weather that needs a storm jib on an inner stay - but having those stays set up in anything other than that kind of weather would get right in the way, especially any time you wanted to run downwind. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27294|27290|2011-12-24 15:35:36|Pierre|Re: aft lower shrouds|When I said that it would be easier to have two sets of lowers, I meant two sets of "aft lowers"... But I understand your point about the extra compression. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard wrote: > > Pierre > > The extra forward lowers you are thinking of would be ineffectual. There > will be a staysail stay going forward. > > The aft lowers you are thinking about will have the same issue as the > normal aft lowers going halfway up the top panel. They will add a lot of > compression while not giving the mast as much aft support as running > backstays. > > On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Pierre wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I was reading some of the older posts today and I stumbled on this message > > by Brent: > > > > "Putting the aft lowers halfway up the top panel is to support the > > staysail stay. I prefer to put them both at the spreaders and use a > > running back stay when using the staysail." > > > > For someone using the staysail all the time, i'm thinking it would be > > easier to have 2 sets of lowers, 1 set that goes halfway up the top panel > > and the second one that goes up to the spreaders. That way the need for > > running backs stays would be eliminated... > > > > In the building stage of the hull, it wouldn't be hard to add two extra > > chain plates a few inches aft of the existing ones for that purpose. > > > > Now what i'm wondering is if there is a reason why no one has done > > this?(as far as I know) > > > > Thanks > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > -- > Cheers > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27295|27233|2011-12-24 16:18:35|David Frantz|Re: DIY Solar Panels|Yep solar panels are something you only want to buy when you need them and can put them to work. The technology is advancing rapidly. Sent from my iPad On Dec 24, 2011, at 1:05 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > It will be an even better deal later. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: audeojude@... > Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 06:45:01 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a use for them right now but I keep thinking about purchasing some and just storing them for a few years to till I start to build the off grid system I want for the house. It is a hell of a deal. > > Scott > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > >> > >> Scott--thanks for the sunelec.com site--amazing prices--really appreciate it. MarkHamill > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: scott > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:40 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > >> > >> > >> > >> You can buy solar laminates. Already assembled into panels just not frame or electrical connection box on them from sunelec.com for 58c a watt. :) > >> > >> hard to beat that. You have to buy min order of 10 of them though.. > >> > >> Scott > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sunbear" wrote: > >>> > >>> A friend is building panels to use on his RV in Alberta (where they actually have sun)using info from this site and solar cells purchased at Ebay. Haven't priced out the enire cost to see if actually cost effective. Anybody done this before? http://solartechtown.com/how-to-build-a-solar-panel/ > >>> This is the Ebay cell section. > >>> http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=solar+cells&_sacat=See-All-Categories > >>> A Merry Christmas and great New Year to everyone. MarkH > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27296|27282|2011-12-24 16:41:59|brentswain38|Re: Skeg cooler question|A friend using antifreeze in his keel cooler since 1980 said hg saw some rust inside, so added water soluble machinists oil and eliminated the problem. The rust now looks oil soaked. Doesn't take much,in fact I've been told too much reduces the cooling effect. 1 1/2 sq ft per ten HP us adequate for diesels. Don't know what it takes for a gas engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > Alright guys, > That makes a lot of sense, thanks for the clarification. > > Pierre > | 27297|27297|2011-12-24 16:55:44|brentswain38|Simplifying interior tabs|Getting interior tabs at the right place is a tricky business. Recently (yesterday) I thought of a much simpler way of locating them. Rum a length of 5/16thg rigging wire along your waterline inside, or parallel to the waterline, from bow to stern along the centreline. Tension it to bar tight with a turn buckle or comealong on the aft end. Make up a small square with saddles to fit the wire, from 1/4 sch 40 pipe) and a laser pointer 90 degrees to the wire. Marl along the wire with a felt pen the for and aft locations of the bulkheads. Clamp a vise grip on the mark and push the square up to it then rotate the square with the laser pointer on thru 360 degrees , marking the position of the bulkhead or it's tabs . Then move it along and do the same with the rest of the bulkheads. Then you can rig a wire athwartships level with the chines,and point the laser for and aft for the bunk fronts, counter fronts, engine mount fore and aft webs, etc and do the same. Once your stern tube is in, you can lamp a string tot he bottom of the outside end and take the inside end until it barely touches the inside bottom corner and rig a board for the fore and aft angles of the engine mounts. This should reduce the job of interior tabs to under three hours total.| 27298|27233|2011-12-24 17:19:28|Mark Hamill|Re: DIY Solar Panels|David: That was really good advice--Its probably not like the company is going down the tubes tomorrow and you are right as well about possible advancements in the future. I will wait to buy. Thanks, MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: David Frantz To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels Yep solar panels are something you only want to buy when you need them and can put them to work. The technology is advancing rapidly. Sent from my iPad On Dec 24, 2011, at 1:05 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > It will be an even better deal later. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: audeojude@... > Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 06:45:01 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a use for them right now but I keep thinking about purchasing some and just storing them for a few years to till I start to build the off grid system I want for the house. It is a hell of a deal. > > Scott > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > >> > >> Scott--thanks for the sunelec.com site--amazing prices--really appreciate it. MarkHamill > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: scott > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:40 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > >> > >> > >> > >> You can buy solar laminates. Already assembled into panels just not frame or electrical connection box on them from sunelec.com for 58c a watt. :) > >> > >> hard to beat that. You have to buy min order of 10 of them though.. > >> > >> Scott > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sunbear" wrote: > >>> > >>> A friend is building panels to use on his RV in Alberta (where they actually have sun)using info from this site and solar cells purchased at Ebay. Haven't priced out the enire cost to see if actually cost effective. Anybody done this before? http://solartechtown.com/how-to-build-a-solar-panel/ > >>> This is the Ebay cell section. > >>> http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=solar+cells&_sacat=See-All-Categories > >>> A Merry Christmas and great New Year to everyone. MarkH > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27299|27233|2011-12-24 20:25:25|scott|Re: DIY Solar Panels|58 cents a watt for polycrystalline or 4 dollars a watt mono... for a 4 or 5 % difference in efficiency? Sounds like a good deal.. actually though I think they have some mono crystalline for in the 80 cents a watt range in this lot of solar laminates they are selling. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard wrote: > > It is a good price but they are polycrystalline, not the more efficient > monocrystalline cells as far as I can tell. | 27300|27233|2011-12-24 21:48:19|Brian Stannard|Re: DIY Solar Panels|At that price difference you're right. On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 5:25 PM, scott wrote: > ** > > > 58 cents a watt for polycrystalline or 4 dollars a watt mono... for a 4 or > 5 % difference in efficiency? Sounds like a good deal.. actually though I > think they have some mono crystalline for in the 80 cents a watt range in > this lot of solar laminates they are selling. > > Scott > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard > wrote: > > > > It is a good price but they are polycrystalline, not the more efficient > > monocrystalline cells as far as I can tell. > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27301|27233|2011-12-25 07:01:56|David Frantz|Re: DIY Solar Panels|Well for now I'm right. With Obama in office there is no telling what may happen trade war wise with China. However fro the technical side of things there is an unbelievable amount of research going on with respect to solar electric. Some of it looks very promising. In the end we should be seeing more watts for your dollar every year for sometime. So buy now if you need them but don't stock up for a future project that is a year or more away. Sent from my iPad On Dec 24, 2011, at 5:19 PM, Mark Hamill wrote: > David: That was really good advice--Its probably not like the company is going down the tubes tomorrow and you are right as well about possible advancements in the future. I will wait to buy. Thanks, MarkH > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Frantz > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 1:18 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > > Yep solar panels are something you only want to buy when you need them and can put them to work. The technology is advancing rapidly. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Dec 24, 2011, at 1:05 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > >> >> >> It will be an even better deal later. >> >> Matt >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: audeojude@... >> Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 06:45:01 +0000 >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't have a use for them right now but I keep thinking about purchasing some and just storing them for a few years to till I start to build the off grid system I want for the house. It is a hell of a deal. >> >> Scott >> >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Scott--thanks for the sunelec.com site--amazing prices--really appreciate it. MarkHamill >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: scott >> >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >>> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:40 PM >> >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> You can buy solar laminates. Already assembled into panels just not frame or electrical connection box on them from sunelec.com for 58c a watt. :) >> >>> >> >>> hard to beat that. You have to buy min order of 10 of them though.. >> >>> >> >>> Scott >> >>> >> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sunbear" wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> A friend is building panels to use on his RV in Alberta (where they actually have sun)using info from this site and solar cells purchased at Ebay. Haven't priced out the enire cost to see if actually cost effective. Anybody done this before? http://solartechtown.com/how-to-build-a-solar-panel/ >> >>>> This is the Ebay cell section. >> >>>> http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=solar+cells&_sacat=See-All-Categories >> >>>> A Merry Christmas and great New Year to everyone. MarkH >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27302|22|2011-12-25 09:00:50|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./229-SEQ8-NR27-11.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Imagiro 39. Working on welded deck fittings; chainplates,hand rails, hatches, cleats, maststep. etc. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229-SEQ8-NR27-11.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 27303|27233|2011-12-25 09:16:25|Matt Malone|Re: DIY Solar Panels|Small project consumers are now the small buyers in solar. There are projects buying dozens of megawatts of cells per project, and even if it is a tiny fraction of the total energy needs of even a small industrial area -- Ontario @ 60 GigaWatts for instance -- it is still orders of magnitude greater than your average consumer will put on their cottage, home or boat. The small consumer is riding on the economies of scale of these large projects. My brother-in-law does financing deals for these projects. 18 months ago the cost of cells to them was $2.20 / Watt, now everyone can get them for that, or less. There are tons of "seconds" also, "cosmetic" etc. Then, think about a good hail storm that leaves dents in cars, or heavy ice storm -- What fraction of their field will they have to replace? The cost of solar is not going to go up. I bought mounted cells at $4/Watt when I was certain the going rate was $4.50/Watt.... I was wrong. And then I watched the price go down from $4, to $3, to $2.50 and $2 and now below a $1 in some cases. I could have had 4 times the power. Do not buy until the day you are going to mount and use solar. Matt CC: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: websterindustro@... Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 07:01:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels Well for now I'm right. With Obama in office there is no telling what may happen trade war wise with China. However fro the technical side of things there is an unbelievable amount of research going on with respect to solar electric. Some of it looks very promising. In the end we should be seeing more watts for your dollar every year for sometime. So buy now if you need them but don't stock up for a future project that is a year or more away. Sent from my iPad On Dec 24, 2011, at 5:19 PM, Mark Hamill wrote: > David: That was really good advice--Its probably not like the company is going down the tubes tomorrow and you are right as well about possible advancements in the future. I will wait to buy. Thanks, MarkH > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Frantz > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 1:18 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > > Yep solar panels are something you only want to buy when you need them and can put them to work. The technology is advancing rapidly. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Dec 24, 2011, at 1:05 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > >> >> >> It will be an even better deal later. >> >> Matt >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: audeojude@... >> Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 06:45:01 +0000 >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't have a use for them right now but I keep thinking about purchasing some and just storing them for a few years to till I start to build the off grid system I want for the house. It is a hell of a deal. >> >> Scott >> >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Scott--thanks for the sunelec.com site--amazing prices--really appreciate it. MarkHamill >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: scott >> >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >>> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:40 PM >> >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> You can buy solar laminates. Already assembled into panels just not frame or electrical connection box on them from sunelec.com for 58c a watt. :) >> >>> >> >>> hard to beat that. You have to buy min order of 10 of them though.. >> >>> >> >>> Scott >> >>> >> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sunbear" wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> A friend is building panels to use on his RV in Alberta (where they actually have sun)using info from this site and solar cells purchased at Ebay. Haven't priced out the enire cost to see if actually cost effective. Anybody done this before? http://solartechtown.com/how-to-build-a-solar-panel/ >> >>>> This is the Ebay cell section. >> >>>> http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=solar+cells&_sacat=See-All-Categories >> >>>> A Merry Christmas and great New Year to everyone. MarkH >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27304|27233|2011-12-25 09:44:53|Denis Buggy|Re: DIY Solar Panels|JESUS YOU ALL ARE A DRY LOT ---- TALK ING ABOUT SOLAR PANELS ON CHRISTMAS DAY ITS 14.38 IN IRELAND -- THE TURKEY HAS JUST BEEN TAKEN OUT OF THE OVEN -- I HAVE SWALLOWED A PINT OF BRANDY WITH MY NEIGHBOURS AND WE SANG SOME HYMS -- THE KIDS ARE HAPPY -- THE WEATHER IS MILD -- SOME PLANTS HAVE FLOWERED LATELY ADVERTISEMENTS ARE BANNED FROM THE TV AND THERE IS NO NEWS BROADCAST TO INTERFERE WITH ONE DAY OF SANITY IN THE YEAR -- FORGET ABOUT SOLAR PANELS ON CHRISTMAS DAY FOR CHRIST'S SAKE -- DENIS BUGGY IRELAND ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Malone" To: Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 2:16 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > Small project consumers are now the small buyers in solar. There are > projects buying dozens of megawatts of cells per project, and even if it > is a tiny fraction of the total energy needs of even a small industrial > area -- Ontario @ 60 GigaWatts for instance -- it is still orders of > magnitude greater than your average consumer will put on their > cottage, home or boat. The small consumer is riding on the economies > of scale of these large projects. My brother-in-law does financing deals > for these projects. 18 months ago the cost of cells to them was $2.20 / > Watt, > now everyone can get them for that, or less. There are tons of > "seconds" also, "cosmetic" etc. Then, think about a good hail storm > that leaves dents in cars, or heavy ice storm -- What fraction of their > field > will they have to replace? The cost of solar is not going to go up. > > I bought mounted cells at $4/Watt when I was certain the going rate was > $4.50/Watt.... I was wrong. And then I watched the price go down from > $4, to $3, to $2.50 and $2 and now below a $1 in some cases. I could > have had 4 times the power. > > Do not buy until the day you are going to mount and use solar. > > Matt > > > CC: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: websterindustro@... > Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 07:01:44 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well for now I'm right. With Obama in office there is no telling > what may happen trade war wise with China. However fro the technical > side of things there is an unbelievable amount of research going on with > respect to solar electric. Some of it looks very promising. > > > > In the end we should be seeing more watts for your dollar every year for > sometime. So buy now if you need them but don't stock up for a future > project that is a year or more away. > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Dec 24, 2011, at 5:19 PM, Mark Hamill wrote: > > > >> David: That was really good advice--Its probably not like the company is >> going down the tubes tomorrow and you are right as well about possible >> advancements in the future. I will wait to buy. Thanks, MarkH > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: David Frantz > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 1:18 PM > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > >> > >> > >> > >> Yep solar panels are something you only want to buy when you need them >> and can put them to work. The technology is advancing rapidly. > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> > >> On Dec 24, 2011, at 1:05 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> It will be an even better deal later. > >>> > >>> Matt > >>> > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> From: audeojude@... > >>> Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 06:45:01 +0000 > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I don't have a use for them right now but I keep thinking about >>> purchasing some and just storing them for a few years to till I start to >>> build the off grid system I want for the house. It is a hell of a deal. > >>> > >>> Scott > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Scott--thanks for the sunelec.com site--amazing prices--really >>>> appreciate it. MarkHamill > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> > >>>> From: scott > >>> > >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> > >>>> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:40 PM > >>> > >>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> You can buy solar laminates. Already assembled into panels just not >>>> frame or electrical connection box on them from sunelec.com for 58c a >>>> watt. :) > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> hard to beat that. You have to buy min order of 10 of them though.. > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Scott > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sunbear" wrote: > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> A friend is building panels to use on his RV in Alberta (where they >>>>> actually have sun)using info from this site and solar cells purchased >>>>> at Ebay. Haven't priced out the enire cost to see if actually cost >>>>> effective. Anybody done this before? >>>>> http://solartechtown.com/how-to-build-a-solar-panel/ > >>> > >>>>> This is the Ebay cell section. > >>> > >>>>> http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=solar+cells&_sacat=See-All-Categories > >>> > >>>>> A Merry Christmas and great New Year to everyone. MarkH > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 27305|27233|2011-12-25 13:01:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: DIY Solar Panels|On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 07:01:44AM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > Well for now I'm right. With Obama in office there is no telling what > may happen trade war wise with China. Wow. I don't have a dog in that fight - I have zero respect for the entire species of politicians - but... Obama is now responsible for the last 40 years of the American habit of selling their economy down the river? Now I've heard everything. There is no "trade war" with China. The US continues to buy billions of dollars of Chinese labor and raw materials every year, and will continue to do so as long as the conspicuous consumption mentality lasts (i.e., until this current culture has completely destroyed itself.) Triple-A rating be damned, US banks holding trillions worth of waste paper means nothing, the entire country having shifted from producer to consumer is just a liberal plot, and the fact that the Oil Bourse is trading in everything *except* dollars (the petrodollar is what's kept up the US economy since 1946) is just some meaningless factoid for Wall Street eggheads. Yup - Obama made it all happen while he was being born. Them damn liberals are tricky like that. With regard to solar cells/panels: yep, cost of production keeps going down. Unfortunately, so does the value of the dollar against the yuan. http://www.x-rates.com/d/CNY/USD/graph120.html Try tracking the dollar-per-watt rate, say on a weekly basis; if it goes down (assuming that it ever will again, in our lifetimes), then just hang on. If you see it go up three or four weeks in a row, buy. You'll never see it that cheap again. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27306|27233|2011-12-25 13:11:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: DIY Solar Panels|On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 02:44:55PM -0000, Denis Buggy wrote: > > ADVERTISEMENTS ARE BANNED FROM THE TV AND THERE IS NO NEWS BROADCAST TO > INTERFERE WITH ONE DAY OF SANITY IN THE YEAR I'm so sorry to hear that your one day of sanity in the year is being spoiled, Danis... Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27307|27297|2011-12-25 13:49:25|wild_explorer|Re: Simplifying interior tabs|I was thinking if it is possible to do it using 3D (to be able to weld it on flat hull pattern). Unfortunately, to do precise placement of the tabs based just on 3D will be pretty hard (because of some errors during unfolding process). But combining 2 methods (3D + laser) will solve many problems. It might be possible to weld longer tabs on the hull's pattern based on 3D, then after hull's folding and stiffening the hull (deck, cabin, etc), to find by laser and mark precise location of needed projected 3D waterlines cuts on the tabs. This way, welding the tabs directly to folded hull (which could make more distortion) will be eliminated. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Getting interior tabs at the right place is a tricky business. Recently (yesterday) I thought of a much simpler way of locating them. > Rum a length of 5/16thg rigging wire along your waterline inside, or parallel to the waterline, from bow to stern along the centreline. Tension it to bar tight with a turn buckle or comealong on the aft end. > Make up a small square with saddles to fit the wire, from 1/4 sch 40 pipe) and a laser pointer 90 degrees to the wire. Marl along the wire with a felt pen the for and aft locations of the bulkheads. Clamp a vise grip on the mark and push the square up to it then rotate the square with the laser pointer on thru 360 degrees , marking the position of the bulkhead or it's tabs . Then move it along and do the same with the rest of the bulkheads. > Then you can rig a wire athwartships level with the chines,and point the laser for and aft for the bunk fronts, counter fronts, engine mount fore and aft webs, etc and do the same. > Once your stern tube is in, you can lamp a string tot he bottom of the outside end and take the inside end until it barely touches the inside bottom corner and rig a board for the fore and aft angles of the engine mounts. This should reduce the job of interior tabs to under three hours total. > | 27308|27282|2011-12-25 13:52:12|Norm Moore|Re: Another Skeg cooler question|Here are the calculations Beta Marine recommends for keel cooling tanks on narrowboats. Should help you figure the surface area required. http://betamarine.co.uk/inland/keel_cooling.html Norm Moore ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, December 24, 2011 10:12:40 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Another Skeg cooler question About how big should a skeg cooler be for a 30 hp gasoline engine ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: piersailor@... Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 02:07:17 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg cooler question Alright guys, That makes a lot of sense, thanks for the clarification. Pierre [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27309|27233|2011-12-25 18:30:18|brentswain38|Re: DIY Solar Panels|Christmas day? Is that something like "End of Crappy Music Day?" --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > JESUS YOU ALL ARE A DRY LOT ---- TALK ING ABOUT SOLAR PANELS ON CHRISTMAS > DAY > ITS 14.38 IN IRELAND -- THE TURKEY HAS JUST BEEN TAKEN OUT OF THE OVEN -- I > HAVE SWALLOWED A PINT OF BRANDY WITH MY NEIGHBOURS AND WE SANG SOME HYMS -- > THE KIDS ARE HAPPY -- THE WEATHER IS MILD -- SOME PLANTS HAVE FLOWERED > LATELY > ADVERTISEMENTS ARE BANNED FROM THE TV AND THERE IS NO NEWS BROADCAST TO > INTERFERE WITH ONE DAY OF SANITY IN THE YEAR -- FORGET ABOUT SOLAR PANELS ON > CHRISTMAS DAY FOR CHRIST'S SAKE -- DENIS BUGGY IRELAND > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matt Malone" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 2:16 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > > > > > > Small project consumers are now the small buyers in solar. There are > > projects buying dozens of megawatts of cells per project, and even if it > > is a tiny fraction of the total energy needs of even a small industrial > > area -- Ontario @ 60 GigaWatts for instance -- it is still orders of > > magnitude greater than your average consumer will put on their > > cottage, home or boat. The small consumer is riding on the economies > > of scale of these large projects. My brother-in-law does financing deals > > for these projects. 18 months ago the cost of cells to them was $2.20 / > > Watt, > > now everyone can get them for that, or less. There are tons of > > "seconds" also, "cosmetic" etc. Then, think about a good hail storm > > that leaves dents in cars, or heavy ice storm -- What fraction of their > > field > > will they have to replace? The cost of solar is not going to go up. > > > > I bought mounted cells at $4/Watt when I was certain the going rate was > > $4.50/Watt.... I was wrong. And then I watched the price go down from > > $4, to $3, to $2.50 and $2 and now below a $1 in some cases. I could > > have had 4 times the power. > > > > Do not buy until the day you are going to mount and use solar. > > > > Matt > > > > > > CC: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: websterindustro@... > > Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 07:01:44 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well for now I'm right. With Obama in office there is no telling > > what may happen trade war wise with China. However fro the technical > > side of things there is an unbelievable amount of research going on with > > respect to solar electric. Some of it looks very promising. > > > > > > > > In the end we should be seeing more watts for your dollar every year for > > sometime. So buy now if you need them but don't stock up for a future > > project that is a year or more away. > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > > > > > On Dec 24, 2011, at 5:19 PM, Mark Hamill wrote: > > > > > > > >> David: That was really good advice--Its probably not like the company is > >> going down the tubes tomorrow and you are right as well about possible > >> advancements in the future. I will wait to buy. Thanks, MarkH > > > >> > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> From: David Frantz > > > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 1:18 PM > > > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Yep solar panels are something you only want to buy when you need them > >> and can put them to work. The technology is advancing rapidly. > > > >> > > > >> Sent from my iPad > > > >> > > > >> On Dec 24, 2011, at 1:05 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> It will be an even better deal later. > > > >>> > > > >>> Matt > > > >>> > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>> From: audeojude@... > > > >>> Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 06:45:01 +0000 > > > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> I don't have a use for them right now but I keep thinking about > >>> purchasing some and just storing them for a few years to till I start to > >>> build the off grid system I want for the house. It is a hell of a deal. > > > >>> > > > >>> Scott > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> Scott--thanks for the sunelec.com site--amazing prices--really > >>>> appreciate it. MarkHamill > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > > > >>> > > > >>>> From: scott > > > >>> > > > >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>> > > > >>>> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:40 PM > > > >>> > > > >>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: DIY Solar Panels > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> You can buy solar laminates. Already assembled into panels just not > >>>> frame or electrical connection box on them from sunelec.com for 58c a > >>>> watt. :) > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> hard to beat that. You have to buy min order of 10 of them though.. > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> Scott > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sunbear" wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>>> A friend is building panels to use on his RV in Alberta (where they > >>>>> actually have sun)using info from this site and solar cells purchased > >>>>> at Ebay. Haven't priced out the enire cost to see if actually cost > >>>>> effective. Anybody done this before? > >>>>> http://solartechtown.com/how-to-build-a-solar-panel/ > > > >>> > > > >>>>> This is the Ebay cell section. > > > >>> > > > >>>>> http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=solar+cells&_sacat=See-All-Categories > > > >>> > > > >>>>> A Merry Christmas and great New Year to everyone. MarkH > > > >>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> ------------------------------------ > > > >>> > > > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 27310|27297|2011-12-26 09:17:29|James Pronk|Re: Simplifying interior tabs|Happy end to bad music month to all. Brent, that is a great idea for the location of the bulkhead tabs. Finally I have a use for that laser pointer I have. Thank you and happy boxing day to all. The wife has headed out to the mall, the first time she has gone boxing day shopping. I am more like Brent. Nether St Vincents or the scrap yard are open so no need to go shopping. James --- On Sat, 12/24/11, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Simplifying interior tabs To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, December 24, 2011, 4:55 PM   Getting interior tabs at the right place is a tricky business. Recently (yesterday) I thought of a much simpler way of locating them. Run a length of 5/16thg rigging wire along your waterline inside, or parallel to the waterline, from bow to stern along the centreline. Tension it to bar tight with a turn buckle or come-along on the aft end. Make up a small square with saddles to fit the wire, from 1/4 sch 40 pipe) and a laser pointer 90 degrees to the wire. Mark along the wire with a felt pen the for and aft locations of the bulkheads. Clamp a vise grip on the mark and push the square up to it then rotate the square with the laser pointer on thru 360 degrees , marking the position of the bulkhead or it's tabs . Then move it along and do the same with the rest of the bulkheads. Then you can rig a wire athwartships level with the chines,and point the laser for and aft for the bunk fronts, counter fronts, engine mount fore and aft webs, etc and do the same. Once your stern tube is in, you can clamp a string to the bottom of the outside end and take the inside end until it barely touches the inside bottom corner and rig a board for the fore and aft angles of the engine mounts. This should reduce the job of interior tabs to under three hours total. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27311|27297|2011-12-26 10:11:58|Matt Malone|Re: Simplifying interior tabs|Brent, I did not 'see' this on the first quick read, now it is clear. And really cool. With a little care making the square, this has the potential to be extraordinarily precise and really easy. Keep the square and laser system light to prevent even a little flex in the cable. A good system to use in a one-man team -- if a second person were touching the square (holding it in line perhaps) this would only flex the cable randomly and make it less precise. A little flex is only a little warping of the bulkhead, so no real worries. Yet another KISS solution from Brent, making Orgamiboats a great list to read. I am definitely going to use this method for the cabinet mounts and shower install in my boat. I will tack on a 1/4" rod with sliding weight at right angles to the laser and cable, so the entire thing balances on the cable in any orientation without touching it. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 21:55:43 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Simplifying interior tabs Getting interior tabs at the right place is a tricky business. Recently (yesterday) I thought of a much simpler way of locating them. Rum a length of 5/16thg rigging wire along your waterline inside, or parallel to the waterline, from bow to stern along the centreline. Tension it to bar tight with a turn buckle or comealong on the aft end. Make up a small square with saddles to fit the wire, from 1/4 sch 40 pipe) and a laser pointer 90 degrees to the wire. Marl along the wire with a felt pen the for and aft locations of the bulkheads. Clamp a vise grip on the mark and push the square up to it then rotate the square with the laser pointer on thru 360 degrees , marking the position of the bulkhead or it's tabs . Then move it along and do the same with the rest of the bulkheads. Then you can rig a wire athwartships level with the chines,and point the laser for and aft for the bunk fronts, counter fronts, engine mount fore and aft webs, etc and do the same. Once your stern tube is in, you can lamp a string tot he bottom of the outside end and take the inside end until it barely touches the inside bottom corner and rig a board for the fore and aft angles of the engine mounts. This should reduce the job of interior tabs to under three hours total. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27312|27312|2011-12-26 20:23:13|Doug Jackson|What kind of bolt does not have a head?|What kind of bolt does not have a head? Circled in red: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1112299274/pic/32272468/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc%c2%a0   This is inside my Hundested controllable pitch control box. I'm trying to remove the piston from the cylinder and it wont budge.  That brass part is definitely threaded but its got no way to turn it.   Any ideas? Hopefully Hundested will have some details. Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27313|27312|2011-12-26 21:22:19|James Pronk|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|  What kind of bolt does not have a head? Set screws!? James --- On Mon, 12/26/11, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head? To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Monday, December 26, 2011, 8:23 PM   What kind of bolt does not have a head? Circled in red: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1112299274/pic/32272468/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc%c2%a0   This is inside my Hundested controllable pitch control box. I'm trying to remove the piston from the cylinder and it wont budge.  That brass part is definitely threaded but its got no way to turn it.   Any ideas? Hopefully Hundested will have some details. Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27314|27312|2011-12-26 22:24:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 05:23:12PM -0800, Doug Jackson wrote: > What kind of bolt does not have a head? > > Circled in red: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1112299274/pic/32272468/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc%c2%a0 >   > This is inside my Hundested controllable pitch control box. I'm trying to remove the piston from the cylinder and it wont budge.  That brass part is definitely threaded but its got no way to turn it.   > > Any ideas? Easy: put a nut on top of it and carefully weld through the nut to the top of the bolt. Then, go ahead and unscrew it using a wrench. This is, of course, assuming that Hundestadt doesn't have some special way of removing it. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27316|27316|2011-12-26 23:09:17|Pierre|rigging end Moitessier style|Moitessier had a very simple way to make his rigging ends, he simply wrapped the wire around a thimble and end secured it with 3 wire clamps(also called dog clamps). Anybody has any experience or opinion with this method? I really like this method because you don't have to rely on anybody else to press your aluminium sleeves. It is also cheap and simple...KISS I also have a paint question, what kind of top coats are you guys using? Can you use regular anti-rust, oil based paint? Pierre| 27317|27312|2011-12-26 23:24:13|Doug Jackson|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|Yeah, that's right.  But it's just got a flat surface. Like it was installed from the inside.    Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head?     What kind of bolt does not have a head? Set screws!? James --- On Mon, 12/26/11, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head? To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Monday, December 26, 2011, 8:23 PM   What kind of bolt does not have a head? Circled in red: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1112299274/pic/32272468/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc%c2%a0   This is inside my Hundested controllable pitch control box. I'm trying to remove the piston from the cylinder and it wont budge.  That brass part is definitely threaded but its got no way to turn it.   Any ideas? Hopefully Hundested will have some details. Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27318|27312|2011-12-26 23:30:26|Doug Jackson|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|Ben Right, baring a reply from Hundested.  Can I weld steel to brass?  Or is that only a job for braising?  Which is something I've never done and don't have any tool for. :(   I was thinking drill it and use an extractor and hope there is no head on the other side.  The real problem here is that some previous owner removed the hydraulic collar that makes the thing work, and I'm wondering if this is what they did to lock in the pitch.  But if that is just a set screw (bolt), why the hell did they cut off the head? Balance maybe?   Doug  SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Ben Okopnik To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head? On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 05:23:12PM -0800, Doug Jackson wrote: > What kind of bolt does not have a head? > > Circled in red: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1112299274/pic/32272468/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc  >   > This is inside my Hundested controllable pitch control box. I'm trying to remove the piston from the cylinder and it wont budge.  That brass part is definitely threaded but its got no way to turn it.   > > Any ideas? Easy: put a nut on top of it and carefully weld through the nut to the top of the bolt. Then, go ahead and unscrew it using a wrench. This is, of course, assuming that Hundestadt doesn't have some special way of removing it. Ben --                       OKOPNIK CONSULTING         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming   443-250-7895  http://okopnik.com  http://twitter.com/okopnik ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27319|27233|2011-12-26 23:46:25|scott|Re: DIY Solar Panels|The panels that are being sold right now for that price are stock from a liquidated manufacture of panels that is out of buisness. This company got about 30 or 40 shipping containers of them in with most of them being pre purchased by clients. What they have on the website is what there is. If you will notice their other panels are a bit more expensive. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > David: That was really good advice--Its probably not like the company is going down the tubes tomorrow and you are right as well about possible advancements in the future. I will wait to buy. Thanks, MarkH > | 27320|27290|2011-12-26 23:51:35|scott|Re: aft lower shrouds|You could use dyneema Dux for the permanent backstay stays. You don't have to pre tension it much so it wouldn't affect compression on the mast. if you size it right it doesn't stretch worth a darn. :) also it is very light. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > When I said that it would be easier to have two sets of lowers, I meant two sets of "aft lowers"... > But I understand your point about the extra compression. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard wrote: > > > > Pierre > > > > The extra forward lowers you are thinking of would be ineffectual. There > > will be a staysail stay going forward. > > > > The aft lowers you are thinking about will have the same issue as the > > normal aft lowers going halfway up the top panel. They will add a lot of > > compression while not giving the mast as much aft support as running > > backstays. > > > > On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Pierre wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > I was reading some of the older posts today and I stumbled on this message > > > by Brent: > > > > > > "Putting the aft lowers halfway up the top panel is to support the > > > staysail stay. I prefer to put them both at the spreaders and use a > > > running back stay when using the staysail." > > > > > > For someone using the staysail all the time, i'm thinking it would be > > > easier to have 2 sets of lowers, 1 set that goes halfway up the top panel > > > and the second one that goes up to the spreaders. That way the need for > > > running backs stays would be eliminated... > > > > > > In the building stage of the hull, it wouldn't be hard to add two extra > > > chain plates a few inches aft of the existing ones for that purpose. > > > > > > Now what i'm wondering is if there is a reason why no one has done > > > this?(as far as I know) > > > > > > Thanks > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Cheers > > Brian > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 27321|27316|2011-12-26 23:54:44|Matt Malone|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|Pierre, Using Crosby clamps (google image search) works just fine to fix a thimble on a cable. The number of clamps to use depends on the size of the cable. They are bulker and heavier than swagged ends. One has to make sure the ends of the U-bolts do not catch a sail. One might wrap them with gobs of electrical or hockey tape to smooth them out. Exactly this sort of thing holds up electrical utility poles that run next to the ocean coast lines. KISS it is, and served Moitesser well. I would stay away from aluminum sleeves on steel cable -- bi-metal corrosion. Steel on steel, stainless on stainless. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: piersailor@... Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 04:09:16 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] rigging end Moitessier style Moitessier had a very simple way to make his rigging ends, he simply wrapped the wire around a thimble and end secured it with 3 wire clamps(also called dog clamps). Anybody has any experience or opinion with this method? I really like this method because you don't have to rely on anybody else to press your aluminium sleeves. It is also cheap and simple...KISS I also have a paint question, what kind of top coats are you guys using? Can you use regular anti-rust, oil based paint? Pierre [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27322|27312|2011-12-27 00:14:37|Matt Malone|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|Doug, Use a dental pick to probe the center of that "bolt" to make sure it is not a Allen setscrew that they have cleverly filled with steel-colour epoxy. If so, pick it out carefully. I have seen that before. Is there a hole in the shaft that this might be accessed through the shaft, and have Allen head on the inside? Next, I would try epoxying a nut to the end before welding or drilling. Next, I would try using a small hammer and a cold chisel like J or K one below: http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/popular-mechanics/Amateur-Work-3/images/Tool-Making-For-Amateurs-II-A-Set-of-Cold-Chisels-307.png To bite into the face of the shaft on a radius from center, furthest to the perimeter and tap it with a strong lean in the counter clockwise direction, so as to be a impact wrench, loosening. I have used this to extract bitched Allen head bolts and Philips head screws from countersinks in castings/casings. One could use heat and cold, oven and freezer, to make the brass part shrink inside the steel part -- careful not to tap the steel part when it is very cold. I find penetrating oil with temperature cycles really works well. Lastly, I would drill and use a left threaded extractor, so it tightens in until the threads start threading out. I would be worried this might expand a softer material, better jamming the bolt in the steel part. I would not weld on a piece with hardened steel parts, and maybe bearings if there was any other way. If I were going to weld on anything, it would not be a nut, it would be a piece of flat stock (drill a small hole where the weld will go) -- to make like a wrench handle. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 17:23:12 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head? What kind of bolt does not have a head? Circled in red: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1112299274/pic/32272468/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc This is inside my Hundested controllable pitch control box. I'm trying to remove the piston from the cylinder and it wont budge. That brass part is definitely threaded but its got no way to turn it. Any ideas? Hopefully Hundested will have some details. Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27323|27312|2011-12-27 02:10:32|Aaron|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|Doug Are there 3 sets or four on the ring? If they are all the same I wonder if they could be where something else like a set screw would be tightened into the holes. Can you get a better picture? Is the sleeve Brass are the screws brass bronze? If the screws are SS which would make sense then welding a nut could be done with care. Aaron ________________________________ From: Doug Jackson To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head?   Ben Right, baring a reply from Hundested.  Can I weld steel to brass?  Or is that only a job for braising?  Which is something I've never done and don't have any tool for. :(   I was thinking drill it and use an extractor and hope there is no head on the other side.  The real problem here is that some previous owner removed the hydraulic collar that makes the thing work, and I'm wondering if this is what they did to lock in the pitch.  But if that is just a set screw (bolt), why the hell did they cut off the head? Balance maybe?   Doug  SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Ben Okopnik To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head? On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 05:23:12PM -0800, Doug Jackson wrote: > What kind of bolt does not have a head? > > Circled in red: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1112299274/pic/32272468/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc  >   > This is inside my Hundested controllable pitch control box. I'm trying to remove the piston from the cylinder and it wont budge.  That brass part is definitely threaded but its got no way to turn it.   > > Any ideas? Easy: put a nut on top of it and carefully weld through the nut to the top of the bolt. Then, go ahead and unscrew it using a wrench. This is, of course, assuming that Hundestadt doesn't have some special way of removing it. Ben --                       OKOPNIK CONSULTING         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming   443-250-7895  http://okopnik.com  http://twitter.com/okopnik ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27324|27312|2011-12-27 02:14:12|Aaron|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|After looking at the original size picture I am betting the screws were sheared off and welding a nut or drilling.   Aaron  ________________________________ From: Doug Jackson To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head?   Yeah, that's right.  But it's just got a flat surface. Like it was installed from the inside.    Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head?     What kind of bolt does not have a head? Set screws!? James --- On Mon, 12/26/11, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head? To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Monday, December 26, 2011, 8:23 PM   What kind of bolt does not have a head? Circled in red: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1112299274/pic/32272468/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc%c2%a0   This is inside my Hundested controllable pitch control box. I'm trying to remove the piston from the cylinder and it wont budge.  That brass part is definitely threaded but its got no way to turn it.   Any ideas? Hopefully Hundested will have some details. Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27325|27316|2011-12-27 02:32:07|josh holloway|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|My wife and I used galvanizes wire and bull dog clips from Home Depot to rig "Tiny Bubbles" before leaving Hawaii. After 3 years and 8,000 miles it was still going strong with little care and some abuse... We coated it all with linseed oil. I know there are better products, but to rerig the entire boat only took $125. www.adventuresoftinybubbles.com Josh To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: m_j_malone@... Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 23:54:44 -0500 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] rigging end Moitessier style Pierre, Using Crosby clamps (google image search) works just fine to fix a thimble on a cable. The number of clamps to use depends on the size of the cable. They are bulker and heavier than swagged ends. One has to make sure the ends of the U-bolts do not catch a sail. One might wrap them with gobs of electrical or hockey tape to smooth them out. Exactly this sort of thing holds up electrical utility poles that run next to the ocean coast lines. KISS it is, and served Moitesser well. I would stay away from aluminum sleeves on steel cable -- bi-metal corrosion. Steel on steel, stainless on stainless. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: piersailor@... Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 04:09:16 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] rigging end Moitessier style Moitessier had a very simple way to make his rigging ends, he simply wrapped the wire around a thimble and end secured it with 3 wire clamps(also called dog clamps). Anybody has any experience or opinion with this method? I really like this method because you don't have to rely on anybody else to press your aluminium sleeves. It is also cheap and simple...KISS I also have a paint question, what kind of top coats are you guys using? Can you use regular anti-rust, oil based paint? Pierre [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27326|27316|2011-12-27 08:47:59|Pierre|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a black PVC pipe over it. Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of oil base enamel? Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... Pierre --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Pierre, > > Using Crosby clamps (google image search) works just fine to fix a thimble on a > cable. The number of clamps to use depends on the size of the cable. They are > bulker and heavier than swagged ends. One has to make sure the ends of the > U-bolts do not catch a sail. One might wrap them with gobs of electrical or hockey > tape to smooth them out. > > Exactly this sort of thing holds up electrical utility poles that run next to the ocean > coast lines. KISS it is, and served Moitesser well. > > I would stay away from aluminum sleeves on steel cable -- bi-metal corrosion. > Steel on steel, stainless on stainless. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: piersailor@... > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 04:09:16 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] rigging end Moitessier style > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moitessier had a very simple way to make his rigging ends, > > he simply wrapped the wire around a thimble and end secured it with 3 wire clamps(also called dog clamps). > > > > Anybody has any experience or opinion with this method? > > > > I really like this method because you don't have to rely on anybody else to press your aluminium sleeves. It is also cheap and simple...KISS > > > > I also have a paint question, what kind of top coats are you guys using? > > Can you use regular anti-rust, oil based paint? > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27327|27316|2011-12-27 09:14:41|James Pronk|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|I like to think about painting as an ongoing thing. Will the paint you put on last as long as the varnish some people use for there bright work? (I hate bright work. I love the look, hate the up keep) Can you easily touch it up? I was going to try to use a one part industrial quality paint for a top coat so touch ups would be easy. James --- On Tue, 12/27/11, Pierre wrote: From: Pierre Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, December 27, 2011, 8:47 AM   I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a black PVC pipe over it. Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of oil base enamel? Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... Pierre --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Pierre, > > Using Crosby clamps (google image search) works just fine to fix a thimble on a > cable. The number of clamps to use depends on the size of the cable. They are > bulker and heavier than swagged ends. One has to make sure the ends of the > U-bolts do not catch a sail. One might wrap them with gobs of electrical or hockey > tape to smooth them out. > > Exactly this sort of thing holds up electrical utility poles that run next to the ocean > coast lines. KISS it is, and served Moitesser well. > > I would stay away from aluminum sleeves on steel cable -- bi-metal corrosion. > Steel on steel, stainless on stainless. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: piersailor@... > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 04:09:16 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] rigging end Moitessier style > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moitessier had a very simple way to make his rigging ends, > > he simply wrapped the wire around a thimble and end secured it with 3 wire clamps(also called dog clamps). > > > > Anybody has any experience or opinion with this method? > > > > I really like this method because you don't have to rely on anybody else to press your aluminium sleeves. It is also cheap and simple...KISS > > > > I also have a paint question, what kind of top coats are you guys using? > > Can you use regular anti-rust, oil based paint? > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27328|27312|2011-12-27 09:49:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 08:30:25PM -0800, Doug Jackson wrote: > Ben > > Right, baring a reply from Hundested.  Can I weld steel to brass? Oh - I didn't realize it was brass. Yep, brazing would be the answer; same trick, except you'd probably want a brass nut. You _can_ braze brass to steel, but brass to brass is a little easier. > Or is that only a job for braising?  Which is something I've never > done and don't have any tool for. :( Just a regular gas torch would do it. If you used Brent's suggestion of oxy-propane for a cutting torch, that would work fine - just tweak the mix away from a blue flame. And if you've done any welding, brazing is easy as pie - literally nothing to it. Just get a rod with flux on it, and you're good to go. (Useful tip, from the Russian "make do" stack of knowledge: if you ever need brazing flux and there's none at hand, crush a few aspirin tablets. Burns a little dirty, but works fine.) > I was thinking drill it and use > an extractor and hope there is no head on the other side. See, this is why I'd wait to see what Hundested says. You _really_ don't want to create that kind of a problem. It can grow big enough to swallow your entire (very expensive) system. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27329|27316|2011-12-27 11:16:14|David Jones|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|I've used clamps many times. I tape them and put a PVC pipe over them. Maybe the tape will hold moisture, but I haven't seen a problem doing it that way. Commercial boat builders for like fishing boats and commercial work boats, don't use "marine" grade paints. They buy commercial grade paints that meet the same requirements. You do have to know about paints though, I wouldn't say you can use "any kind" ... You want good quality. Good paint is, well, good paint... if you get my drift... dj On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Pierre wrote: > > > I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a > black PVC pipe over it. > > Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of > oil base enamel? > > Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that > some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... > > Pierre > | 27330|27316|2011-12-27 11:25:21|jason ball|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|lightly grease and then bicycle innertubes taped at the top!! --- On Tue, 27/12/11, Pierre wrote: From: Pierre Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 27 December, 2011, 13:47   I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a black PVC pipe over it. Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of oil base enamel? Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... Pierre --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Pierre, > > Using Crosby clamps (google image search) works just fine to fix a thimble on a > cable. The number of clamps to use depends on the size of the cable. They are > bulker and heavier than swagged ends. One has to make sure the ends of the > U-bolts do not catch a sail. One might wrap them with gobs of electrical or hockey > tape to smooth them out. > > Exactly this sort of thing holds up electrical utility poles that run next to the ocean > coast lines. KISS it is, and served Moitesser well. > > I would stay away from aluminum sleeves on steel cable -- bi-metal corrosion. > Steel on steel, stainless on stainless. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: piersailor@... > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 04:09:16 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] rigging end Moitessier style > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moitessier had a very simple way to make his rigging ends, > > he simply wrapped the wire around a thimble and end secured it with 3 wire clamps(also called dog clamps). > > > > Anybody has any experience or opinion with this method? > > > > I really like this method because you don't have to rely on anybody else to press your aluminium sleeves. It is also cheap and simple...KISS > > > > I also have a paint question, what kind of top coats are you guys using? > > Can you use regular anti-rust, oil based paint? > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27331|27312|2011-12-27 11:40:17|Doug Jackson|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|Matt Did that and touched it with a grinder and it looks solid to me.  I got a video that shows you more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVnfLuh6lm0%c2%a0  About 23 seconds into it, you can see that brass do-hickey on the top as well as a big stainless pin that passed all the way though and had cotter keys on both ends.  That pin came out just fine and it holds the center linear actuated shaft so it spins with the outer shaft. With the collar that supplies hydraulic fluid to the piston gone, I'm guessing that the brass part might have been added in order to keep the shaft locked in a fixed pitch.  Hopefully Hundested will help.  And thanks for all the suggestions.  I appreciate it.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 11:14 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head? Doug, Use a dental pick to probe the center of that "bolt" to make sure it is not a Allen setscrew that they have cleverly filled with steel-colour epoxy.  If so, pick it out carefully.  I have seen that before. Is there a hole in the shaft that this might be accessed through the shaft, and have Allen head on the inside?  Next, I would try epoxying a nut to the end before welding or drilling.  Next, I would try using a small hammer and a cold chisel like J or K one below: http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/popular-mechanics/Amateur-Work-3/images/Tool-Making-For-Amateurs-II-A-Set-of-Cold-Chisels-307.png To bite into the face of the shaft on a radius from center, furthest to the perimeter and tap it with a strong lean in the counter clockwise direction, so as to be a impact wrench, loosening.  I have used this to extract bitched Allen head bolts and Philips head screws from countersinks in castings/casings.  One could use heat and cold, oven and freezer, to make the brass part shrink inside the steel part -- careful not to tap the steel part when it is very cold.  I find penetrating oil with temperature cycles really works well.  Lastly, I would drill and use a left threaded extractor, so it tightens in until the threads start threading out.  I would be worried this might expand a softer material, better jamming the bolt in the steel part.  I would not weld on a piece with hardened steel parts, and maybe bearings if there was any other way.  If I were going to weld on anything, it would not be a nut, it would be a piece of flat stock (drill a small hole where the weld will go) -- to make like a wrench handle.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 17:23:12 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head?                         What kind of bolt does not have a head? Circled in red: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1112299274/pic/32272468/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc This is inside my Hundested controllable pitch control box. I'm trying to remove the piston from the cylinder and it wont budge.  That brass part is definitely threaded but its got no way to turn it.  Any ideas? Hopefully Hundested will have some details. Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27332|27312|2011-12-27 11:43:09|Doug Jackson|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|Aaron Check out the video in the previous reply.  Weird thing is it does not look sheered. Well, it does now because I touched it with a grinder.  ...but it look like the end of a bolt.  And thanks for the help.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Aaron To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 1:14 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head?   After looking at the original size picture I am betting the screws were sheared off and welding a nut or drilling.   Aaron  ________________________________ From: Doug Jackson To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head?   Yeah, that's right.  But it's just got a flat surface. Like it was installed from the inside.    Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head?     What kind of bolt does not have a head? Set screws!? James --- On Mon, 12/26/11, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head? To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Monday, December 26, 2011, 8:23 PM   What kind of bolt does not have a head? Circled in red: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1112299274/pic/32272468/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc%c2%a0   This is inside my Hundested controllable pitch control box. I'm trying to remove the piston from the cylinder and it wont budge.  That brass part is definitely threaded but its got no way to turn it.   Any ideas? Hopefully Hundested will have some details. Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27333|27312|2011-12-27 11:48:12|Doug Jackson|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|Thanks Ben I don't keep oxygen around. Mapp gas alone won't do it right?  I tried one of those little oxygen cylinders once.  It worked fine but was empty before you could blink.     Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Ben Okopnik To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head? On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 08:30:25PM -0800, Doug Jackson wrote: > Ben > > Right, baring a reply from Hundested.  Can I weld steel to brass? Oh - I didn't realize it was brass. Yep, brazing would be the answer; same trick, except you'd probably want a brass nut. You _can_ braze brass to steel, but brass to brass is a little easier. > Or is that only a job for braising?  Which is something I've never > done and don't have any tool for. :( Just a regular gas torch would do it. If you used Brent's suggestion of oxy-propane for a cutting torch, that would work fine - just tweak the mix away from a blue flame. And if you've done any welding, brazing is easy as pie - literally nothing to it. Just get a rod with flux on it, and you're good to go. (Useful tip, from the Russian "make do" stack of knowledge: if you ever need brazing flux and there's none at hand, crush a few aspirin tablets. Burns a little dirty, but works fine.) > I was thinking drill it and use > an extractor and hope there is no head on the other side. See, this is why I'd wait to see what Hundested says. You _really_ don't want to create that kind of a problem. It can grow big enough to swallow your entire (very expensive) system. Ben --                       OKOPNIK CONSULTING         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming   443-250-7895  http://okopnik.com  http://twitter.com/okopnik ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27334|27316|2011-12-27 14:15:33|scott|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|Yes you can. It won't last quite as long as the expensive 2 part paints but it cost 1/10 the cost. I have used glidden oil base floor and deck paints at 20 dollars a gallon to paint the decks of a boat before. Worked great and had about 6 year life span. After that it started crazing a little. However I didn't do a lot of surface prep to the fibreglass deck that had been painted before. Just pressure washed and painted. Light colors are king on deck :) scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a black PVC pipe over it. > > Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of oil base enamel? > > Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... > > Pierre > | 27335|27316|2011-12-27 14:30:41|Paul Wilson|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|A good house paint is better than a bad yacht paint. I know some who have used porch and floor enamel. It is tough and UV resistant. The boat paints are made for high gloss. A high gloss house paint gives more of a work boat finish but that is just fine with me. I had a two part paint on my topsides for awhile and it was a pain to touch up. The hardeners, once opened, react to the air so will harden in the can. I favor single part paints. I am just about to repaint my topsides and am going to use a water-based high gloss house enamel that is UV rated for 15 years. It may scratch easy but it will be easy to touch up. I will see how it goes.... Regarding rigging..... In NZ, you can buy Denso tape. It is a cloth tape coated with grease (lanolin?) used for plumbing and available in all the hardware stores. It would be great for the rigging if you covered it with a plain tape afterwords. http://www.denso.net/densotape/index.htm Personally, I would only use cable clamps for temporary repairs. The are too bulky and likely to snag knees or lines. Cheers, Paul| 27336|27316|2011-12-27 14:31:26|martin demers|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|Where do you find $20.00 a gallon paint? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: audeojude@... Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:15:31 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style Yes you can. It won't last quite as long as the expensive 2 part paints but it cost 1/10 the cost. I have used glidden oil base floor and deck paints at 20 dollars a gallon to paint the decks of a boat before. Worked great and had about 6 year life span. After that it started crazing a little. However I didn't do a lot of surface prep to the fibreglass deck that had been painted before. Just pressure washed and painted. Light colors are king on deck :) scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a black PVC pipe over it. > > Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of oil base enamel? > > Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... > > Pierre > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27337|27233|2011-12-28 06:26:08|David Frantz|Re: DIY Solar Panels|I don't disagree with your points below but my statement below reflects a recent development where the Chinese basically told the US to go to hell. This in response to US complaints about the Chinese underwriting solar R&D and targeting that industry for assistance. The Chinese promptly pointed out the stupidity we went through with GM at Obamas direction. Obama as you say isn't responsible for the past 40 years of deficit spending. He is responsible for the current clashes with the Chinese over solar power. Frankly I'm not sure if that is due to trying to improve trade relations with China or simply to take focus off corruption surrounding firms like Solandra. In any event my point wasn't to tread into politics; rather it is to point out that, unless the politicians screw things up totally, solar power will get cheaper every year on a per watt basis. Efficiency goes up pretty regularly and the prices are dropping like a rock. Sent from my iPad On Dec 25, 2011, at 1:01 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 07:01:44AM -0500, David Frantz wrote: >> Well for now I'm right. With Obama in office there is no telling what >> may happen trade war wise with China. > > Wow. I don't have a dog in that fight - I have zero respect for the > entire species of politicians - but... Obama is now responsible for the > last 40 years of the American habit of selling their economy down the > river? Now I've heard everything. > > There is no "trade war" with China. The US continues to buy billions of > dollars of Chinese labor and raw materials every year, and will continue > to do so as long as the conspicuous consumption mentality lasts (i.e., > until this current culture has completely destroyed itself.) Triple-A > rating be damned, US banks holding trillions worth of waste paper means > nothing, the entire country having shifted from producer to consumer is > just a liberal plot, and the fact that the Oil Bourse is trading in > everything *except* dollars (the petrodollar is what's kept up the US > economy since 1946) is just some meaningless factoid for Wall Street > eggheads. > > Yup - Obama made it all happen while he was being born. Them damn > liberals are tricky like that. > > > With regard to solar cells/panels: yep, cost of production keeps going > down. Unfortunately, so does the value of the dollar against the yuan. > > http://www.x-rates.com/d/CNY/USD/graph120.html > > Try tracking the dollar-per-watt rate, say on a weekly basis; if it goes > down (assuming that it ever will again, in our lifetimes), then just > hang on. If you see it go up three or four weeks in a row, buy. You'll > never see it that cheap again. > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27338|27338|2011-12-28 10:05:27|Pierre|airhead vent|For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. Anybody see a problem with that option?| 27339|27339|2011-12-28 11:32:17|Doug Jackson|Homemade SandBlaster|We've cobbled together a sandblaster system for less than $2000 that might be of interest to anyone considering doing that part of the job yourself. Best part is that it can use wet sand.  Really wet.  Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZnUim-gNMI%c2%a0 Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7tGlXXQ6Gs   Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27340|27233|2011-12-28 16:19:26|Ben Okopnik|Re: DIY Solar Panels|On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 06:25:39AM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > I don't disagree with your points below but my statement below > reflects a recent development where the Chinese basically told the US > to go to hell. Well, sure. We've put them in position to do so with regard to ourselves, and they see no reason to hold back from doing what we've been doing for the past 70 years or so (i.e., dictating policy from that position of power.) > Obama as you say isn't responsible for the past 40 years of deficit > spending. He is responsible for the current clashes with the > Chinese over solar power. Well, the "clashes" are nothing more than a reflection of the current status of US and China - i.e., the result of that transfer of power. The choice, at this point, is not "win/lose" - it's "go down silently" vs. "not". Not that it affects the actual result, in the end. > In any event my point wasn't to tread into politics; rather it is to > point out that, unless the politicians screw things up totally, solar > power will get cheaper every year on a per watt basis. Efficiency goes > up pretty regularly and the prices are dropping like a rock. Can't disagree with you there, David; the technology _is_ moving ahead quite rapidly. This is why I suggested tracking the prices. However, the exchange rate is also changing rapidly - and, from all I can see, accelerating. That's the reason I suggested buying as soon as the prices start rising. We've got two major opposing, intersecting influences working here, so it makes sense to use price as a reasonable indicator. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27341|27339|2011-12-28 16:51:26|wild_explorer|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|Doug, Is it possible to use water pump (about ~100 psi) instead of compressor? For wet sand, it might work similar to devices used for sea sand mining: low-pressure jets stirs the sand in the tank and keep tank pressurized, another high-pressure jet goes through the nozzle accelerating low-pressure sand-water mixture and help pulling mixture from the tank... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > We've cobbled together a sandblaster system for less than $2000 that might be of interest to anyone considering doing that part of the job yourself. Best part is that it can use wet sand.  Really wet.  > > Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZnUim-gNMI%c2%a0 > > Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7tGlXXQ6Gs >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27342|27312|2011-12-28 17:01:27|David Jones|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|Doug, You may be able to drill a hole in it and use an easy out. If you don't have easy outs, then you can cut a slot in the head and use a flat blade screw driver to remove it. Just a couple ideas... dj On Mon, 26 Dec 2011, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > What kind of bolt does not have a head? > > Circled inred: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1112299274/pic/32272468/view?picmode=&mode=tn&orde > r=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc > > This is inside my Hundested controllable pitch control box. I'm trying to remove the piston from the cylinder > and it wont budge.  That brass part is definitely threaded but its got no way to turn it. > > Any ideas? > > Hopefully Hundested will have some details. > > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27343|27297|2011-12-28 17:04:14|brentswain38|Re: Simplifying interior tabs|Maybe someone should move it to files , so it will be easy to find. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Brent, > > I did not 'see' this on the first quick read, now it is clear. And > really cool. With a little care making the square, this has the > potential to be extraordinarily precise and really easy. Keep > the square and laser system light to prevent even a little flex > in the cable. A good system to use in a one-man team -- if a > second person were touching the square (holding it in line > perhaps) this would only flex the cable randomly and make > it less precise. A little flex is only a little warping of the > bulkhead, so no real worries. > > Yet another KISS solution from Brent, making Orgamiboats > a great list to read. > > I am definitely going to use this method for the cabinet mounts > and shower install in my boat. I will tack on a 1/4" > rod with sliding weight at right angles to the laser and cable, > so the entire thing balances on the cable in any orientation > without touching it. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 21:55:43 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Simplifying interior tabs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Getting interior tabs at the right place is a tricky business. Recently (yesterday) I thought of a much simpler way of locating them. > > Rum a length of 5/16thg rigging wire along your waterline inside, or parallel to the waterline, from bow to stern along the centreline. Tension it to bar tight with a turn buckle or comealong on the aft end. > > Make up a small square with saddles to fit the wire, from 1/4 sch 40 pipe) and a laser pointer 90 degrees to the wire. Marl along the wire with a felt pen the for and aft locations of the bulkheads. Clamp a vise grip on the mark and push the square up to it then rotate the square with the laser pointer on thru 360 degrees , marking the position of the bulkhead or it's tabs . Then move it along and do the same with the rest of the bulkheads. > > Then you can rig a wire athwartships level with the chines,and point the laser for and aft for the bunk fronts, counter fronts, engine mount fore and aft webs, etc and do the same. > > Once your stern tube is in, you can lamp a string tot he bottom of the outside end and take the inside end until it barely touches the inside bottom corner and rig a board for the fore and aft angles of the engine mounts. This should reduce the job of interior tabs to under three hours total. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27344|27316|2011-12-28 17:10:33|brentswain38|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|I used that on my last boat for many years. Works well, but clamps rust a bit, and thus need replacing from time to time, and they foul jib sheets. You can press your own sleeves with a hydraulic jack in a frame. You can make the dies up with a drill press. Aluminium sleeves are not strong enough by themselves, but should be used over a farm splice ( molly Hogan) Any oil base paint is good for protecting the epoxy from UV damage. Urethane is tougher, but harder to paint over and more complex to use. Oil base can be used anytime in the widest range of conditions. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > Moitessier had a very simple way to make his rigging ends, > he simply wrapped the wire around a thimble and end secured it with 3 wire clamps(also called dog clamps). > > Anybody has any experience or opinion with this method? > > I really like this method because you don't have to rely on anybody else to press your aluminium sleeves. It is also cheap and simple...KISS > > I also have a paint question, what kind of top coats are you guys using? > Can you use regular anti-rust, oil based paint? > > Pierre > | 27345|27290|2011-12-28 17:12:12|brentswain38|Re: aft lower shrouds|For a cruising boat I see no advantage of synthetics over wire, for stays. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > You could use dyneema Dux for the permanent backstay stays. You don't have to pre tension it much so it wouldn't affect compression on the mast. if you size it right it doesn't stretch worth a darn. :) also it is very light. > > Scott > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > When I said that it would be easier to have two sets of lowers, I meant two sets of "aft lowers"... > > But I understand your point about the extra compression. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard wrote: > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > The extra forward lowers you are thinking of would be ineffectual. There > > > will be a staysail stay going forward. > > > > > > The aft lowers you are thinking about will have the same issue as the > > > normal aft lowers going halfway up the top panel. They will add a lot of > > > compression while not giving the mast as much aft support as running > > > backstays. > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Pierre wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > I was reading some of the older posts today and I stumbled on this message > > > > by Brent: > > > > > > > > "Putting the aft lowers halfway up the top panel is to support the > > > > staysail stay. I prefer to put them both at the spreaders and use a > > > > running back stay when using the staysail." > > > > > > > > For someone using the staysail all the time, i'm thinking it would be > > > > easier to have 2 sets of lowers, 1 set that goes halfway up the top panel > > > > and the second one that goes up to the spreaders. That way the need for > > > > running backs stays would be eliminated... > > > > > > > > In the building stage of the hull, it wouldn't be hard to add two extra > > > > chain plates a few inches aft of the existing ones for that purpose. > > > > > > > > Now what i'm wondering is if there is a reason why no one has done > > > > this?(as far as I know) > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Cheers > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 27346|27316|2011-12-28 17:15:48|brentswain38|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|Lots of epoxy tar is a good idea on all rigging wire. I use Home Hardware oil based "fishboat " enamel over the epoxy on my boat. No problems. $25 a gallon. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a black PVC pipe over it. > > Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of oil base enamel? > > Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... > > Pierre > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > Pierre, > > > > Using Crosby clamps (google image search) works just fine to fix a thimble on a > > cable. The number of clamps to use depends on the size of the cable. They are > > bulker and heavier than swagged ends. One has to make sure the ends of the > > U-bolts do not catch a sail. One might wrap them with gobs of electrical or hockey > > tape to smooth them out. > > > > Exactly this sort of thing holds up electrical utility poles that run next to the ocean > > coast lines. KISS it is, and served Moitesser well. > > > > I would stay away from aluminum sleeves on steel cable -- bi-metal corrosion. > > Steel on steel, stainless on stainless. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: piersailor@ > > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 04:09:16 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] rigging end Moitessier style > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moitessier had a very simple way to make his rigging ends, > > > > he simply wrapped the wire around a thimble and end secured it with 3 wire clamps(also called dog clamps). > > > > > > > > Anybody has any experience or opinion with this method? > > > > > > > > I really like this method because you don't have to rely on anybody else to press your aluminium sleeves. It is also cheap and simple...KISS > > > > > > > > I also have a paint question, what kind of top coats are you guys using? > > > > Can you use regular anti-rust, oil based paint? > > > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 27347|27316|2011-12-28 17:18:05|brentswain38|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|It will last far longer than varnish, as the UV doesn't shine right thru it , like it does on varnish. Touch up is easy. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I like to think about painting as an ongoing thing. Will the paint you put on last as long as the varnish some people use for there bright work? (I hate bright work. I love the look, hate the up keep) Can you easily touch it up? > I was going to try to use a one part industrial quality paint for a top coat so touch ups would be easy. > James > > --- On Tue, 12/27/11, Pierre wrote: > > > From: Pierre > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Tuesday, December 27, 2011, 8:47 AM > > > >   > > > > I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a black PVC pipe over it. > > Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of oil base enamel? > > Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... > > Pierre > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > Pierre, > > > > Using Crosby clamps (google image search) works just fine to fix a thimble on a > > cable. The number of clamps to use depends on the size of the cable. They are > > bulker and heavier than swagged ends. One has to make sure the ends of the > > U-bolts do not catch a sail. One might wrap them with gobs of electrical or hockey > > tape to smooth them out. > > > > Exactly this sort of thing holds up electrical utility poles that run next to the ocean > > coast lines. KISS it is, and served Moitesser well. > > > > I would stay away from aluminum sleeves on steel cable -- bi-metal corrosion. > > Steel on steel, stainless on stainless. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: piersailor@ > > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 04:09:16 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] rigging end Moitessier style > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moitessier had a very simple way to make his rigging ends, > > > > he simply wrapped the wire around a thimble and end secured it with 3 wire clamps(also called dog clamps). > > > > > > > > Anybody has any experience or opinion with this method? > > > > > > > > I really like this method because you don't have to rely on anybody else to press your aluminium sleeves. It is also cheap and simple...KISS > > > > > > > > I also have a paint question, what kind of top coats are you guys using? > > > > Can you use regular anti-rust, oil based paint? > > > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27348|27338|2011-12-28 17:30:29|brentswain38|Re: airhead vent|With my head in the back corner of my wheelhouse, I run my vent up near the backstay. No problem. I use thin walled 2 inch aluminium tubing to take it 9 ft above the deck. Works well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? > > I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. > > Anybody see a problem with that option? > | 27349|27312|2011-12-28 17:32:19|brentswain38|Re: What kind of bolt does not have a head?|With parts from the welding supplies, I made up a yoke to fill the small bottle from a bigger one. Works well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Thanks Ben > > I don't keep oxygen around. Mapp gas alone won't do it right?  I tried one of those little oxygen cylinders once.  It worked fine but was empty before you could blink.   >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ben Okopnik > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 8:49 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What kind of bolt does not have a head? > > On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 08:30:25PM -0800, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Ben > > > > Right, baring a reply from Hundested.  Can I weld steel to brass? > > Oh - I didn't realize it was brass. Yep, brazing would be the answer; > same trick, except you'd probably want a brass nut. You _can_ braze > brass to steel, but brass to brass is a little easier. > > > Or is that only a job for braising?  Which is something I've never > > done and don't have any tool for. :( > > Just a regular gas torch would do it. If you used Brent's suggestion of > oxy-propane for a cutting torch, that would work fine - just tweak the > mix away from a blue flame. And if you've done any welding, brazing is > easy as pie - literally nothing to it. Just get a rod with flux on it, > and you're good to go. > > (Useful tip, from the Russian "make do" stack of knowledge: if you ever > need brazing flux and there's none at hand, crush a few aspirin tablets. > Burns a little dirty, but works fine.) > > > I was thinking drill it and use > > an extractor and hope there is no head on the other side. > > See, this is why I'd wait to see what Hundested says. You _really_ don't > want to create that kind of a problem. It can grow big enough to swallow > your entire (very expensive) system. > > > Ben > -- >                       OKOPNIK CONSULTING >         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming >   443-250-7895  http://okopnik.com  http://twitter.com/okopnik > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27350|27339|2011-12-28 17:34:27|brentswain38|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|Princess auto has a nozzle for around $100 which lets you wet blast using a pressure washer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Doug, Is it possible to use water pump (about ~100 psi) instead of compressor? > > For wet sand, it might work similar to devices used for sea sand mining: low-pressure jets stirs the sand in the tank and keep tank pressurized, another high-pressure jet goes through the nozzle accelerating low-pressure sand-water mixture and help pulling mixture from the tank... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > We've cobbled together a sandblaster system for less than $2000 that might be of interest to anyone considering doing that part of the job yourself. Best part is that it can use wet sand.  Really wet.  > > > > Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZnUim-gNMI%c2%a0 > > > > Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7tGlXXQ6Gs > >   > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 27351|27339|2011-12-28 17:44:23|Doug Jackson|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|Yes. I looked into that too. There are a couple of different systems.  Here is a powerful one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V16E8gQWCcA&feature=related%c2%a0 Most don't have 70 HP engines behind them so they just don't cut that fast.  I think I'll be able to do 40 sq feet an hour after a few more tweaks.  That'a about half of what a big rental unit with dry sand will do, but a hell of a lot cleaner. And I don't have to wear anything more than a rain slicker. Another problem with hydro sand blasters is they still need dry sand because they use a venturi to suck up the sand.  Air is right for me because I plan to put the compressor on the boat. There are a lot more uses for compressed air than water.     Doug  SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 3:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster   Doug, Is it possible to use water pump (about ~100 psi) instead of compressor? For wet sand, it might work similar to devices used for sea sand mining: low-pressure jets stirs the sand in the tank and keep tank pressurized, another high-pressure jet goes through the nozzle accelerating low-pressure sand-water mixture and help pulling mixture from the tank... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > We've cobbled together a sandblaster system for less than $2000 that might be of interest to anyone considering doing that part of the job yourself. Best part is that it can use wet sand.  Really wet.  > > Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZnUim-gNMI%c2%a0 > > Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7tGlXXQ6Gs >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27352|27339|2011-12-28 18:49:04|wild_explorer|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|Your experiment with wet sand just reminded me sea sand mining. I agree, there is no reason to change air to water in your system, because you already got a compressor. City water line usually has 100 psi, house line - about 20-30 psi. I do not see a good reason why it is need to use dry sand in hydro sand blaster. Water-sand mixture is easier to deal with... It might be not very practical to use (and pay) for city water, but if it possible to get cheap water pump powered by some motor (diesel, electric, etc) and have fresh water supply near by, it could be an alternative to air sand blasting. Pressure washer might work reasonably well, but, as I understand, sand is used to get rough surface which will not be possible using only pressure washer. Brent mentioned some nozzle for pressure washer, but I do not know if it allows to use sand with it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > Another problem with hydro sand blasters is they still need dry sand because they use a venturi to suck up the sand.  Air is right for me because I plan to put the compressor on the boat. There are a lot more uses for compressed air than water.   >   > Doug  > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 3:51 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster > > >   > Doug, Is it possible to use water pump (about ~100 psi) instead of compressor? > > For wet sand, it might work similar to devices used for sea sand mining: low-pressure jets stirs the sand in the tank and keep tank pressurized, another high-pressure jet goes through the nozzle accelerating low-pressure sand-water mixture and help pulling mixture from the tank... > | 27353|27339|2011-12-28 19:22:30|Doug Jackson|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|This is an attachment: Warning: Mute the sound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqPiF49DZu4 I don't think that will lift wet sand, but I bet it would work if you gravity feed it wet sand. It looks really slow and they are not cutting much off.  But nothing more HP and a bigger pump would not correct.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 5:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster   Your experiment with wet sand just reminded me sea sand mining. I agree, there is no reason to change air to water in your system, because you already got a compressor. City water line usually has 100 psi, house line - about 20-30 psi. I do not see a good reason why it is need to use dry sand in hydro sand blaster. Water-sand mixture is easier to deal with... It might be not very practical to use (and pay) for city water, but if it possible to get cheap water pump powered by some motor (diesel, electric, etc) and have fresh water supply near by, it could be an alternative to air sand blasting. Pressure washer might work reasonably well, but, as I understand, sand is used to get rough surface which will not be possible using only pressure washer. Brent mentioned some nozzle for pressure washer, but I do not know if it allows to use sand with it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > Another problem with hydro sand blasters is they still need dry sand because they use a venturi to suck up the sand.  Air is right for me because I plan to put the compressor on the boat. There are a lot more uses for compressed air than water.   >   > Doug  > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 3:51 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster > > >   > Doug, Is it possible to use water pump (about ~100 psi) instead of compressor? > > For wet sand, it might work similar to devices used for sea sand mining: low-pressure jets stirs the sand in the tank and keep tank pressurized, another high-pressure jet goes through the nozzle accelerating low-pressure sand-water mixture and help pulling mixture from the tank... > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27354|27339|2011-12-28 23:08:13|wild_explorer|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|I could not find exact device I was talking about on Internet (may be I was not looking hard enough). Closest thing I could find which use the same principle (water-sand mixture pumping - sand is under water, not just wet sand). http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CgP7cQu8Kk4 Similar pump type is probably used in such devices http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/440051381/Sand_Pumping_Machine.html Pressure washer using dry sand does not look good at all as a "wet sand blaster" ;( --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > This is an attachment: Warning: Mute the sound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqPiF49DZu4 > > I don't think that will lift wet sand, but I bet it would work if you gravity feed it wet sand. > > It looks really slow and they are not cutting much off.  But nothing more HP and a bigger pump would not correct. > >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com | 27355|27355|2011-12-28 23:47:45|SHANE ROTHWELL|Motissier style rigging|Martin,   A while back someone noted an advert for marine paint. I called the guy & it turned out to be Dave Crosley who I'd bought paint from for years, then he moved & we lost touch. Dealt with him for years, never a problem, straigh shooter & he'll do better than $20 a "gallon" (yank gallon that is) of pretty much anything He's in the wilds of surry, his # 604-339-8183. Please pass along my regards   Shane         Posted by: "martin demers" mdemers2005@...   inter4905 Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:31 am (PST) Where do you find $20.00 a gallon paint? To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com From: audeojude@yahoo. com Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:15:31 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style Yes you can. It won't last quite as long as the expensive 2 part paints but it cost 1/10 the cost. I have used glidden oil base floor and deck paints at 20 dollars a gallon to paint the decks of a boat before. Worked great and had about 6 year life span. After that it started crazing a little. However I didn't do a lot of surface prep to the fibreglass deck that had been painted before. Just pressure washed and painted. Light colors are king on deck :) scott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27356|27171|2011-12-29 10:55:21|will jones|Re: Music lovers...|    >>   I agree that the AC is coupled - whether through the power supply or     >>    just through lack of good isolation (the point that wild_explorer     >>    brought up.) Easy to prevent either one in the design and the     >>    manufacturing stage, hard to do after...     > I am not sure why you introduced the audio cable issue,     >>    I didn't; I was speaking of AC cables, and the effect they have on     >>    high-end audio equipment. Sorry I didn't make the connection clearer: to     >>    me, the fact that people pay $400 for these, and that nothing like that     >>    exists for computer equipment, means that audio equipment is     >>    significantly affected by AC-induced noise issues while computer     >>    equipment isn't. I am still confused, are you talking about the power supply cable, speaker cable, the electronic device ittself, or perhaps a tube amplifier?     > however the digital component of the audio system is producing a digital signal into the digital audio converter (DAC) , with the typical analog audio output, from the DAC, in the 20-30milliWatt range rated typically for 16ohms.     >     > As you undoubtedly know, speakers are analog devices that use a logarithmic scale (decibels).     >>    Small but important distinction: speakers are actually linear devices     >>    (inductors) - but the way we humans perceive sound is best expressed on     >>    the decibel (absolute) scale. I.e., 20dB(a) sounds twice as loud to us     >>    as 10dB(a), but the actual power ratio is 10:1. Yeeeesssss, inductors---> analog devices that use a logarithmic scale.     > Interestingly enough, typical computer speakers are rated around 30Watts at 4-6 ohms.     >>    8 ohms is pretty much standard for small speakers. Both 4 and 6 ohm     >>    speakers tend to be specialty items. Wrong.  Depends on typical wattage output for the speakers.  8 ohms costs money to push, so is relegated to higher end speakers on the assumption someone is getting a better sound card with a better amplifier.  Look up the ratings for most mid to lower range computer speakers and you will see they are 4-6 ohms with only the higher end ones typically above 30W RMS going to 8ohms.  Of course you are now getting into the $150+ cost range for brand name computer speakers.  Here is Logitech's ratings for their low to mid X-530's Left/right: 7.4 watts RMS x 2 (into 4 ohms, @ 1 kHz, @ 10% THD) Center: 15.5 watts RMS (into 4 ohms, @ 1 kHz, @ 10% THD) Rear left/right: 7.4 watts RMS x 2 (into 4 ohms, @ 1 kHz, @ 10% THD) Subwoofer: 25 watts RMS (into 4 ohms, @ 100 Hz, @ 10% THD)     > Sooooo one needs to boost the DAC output roughly 10,000 times to hear them at any reasonable level in the speakers.  Of course this is off the cuff since I haven't corrected for the difference in impedance and the boost isn't actually 10K, at least in a single step.     >>    Yeah, 40dB audio amps are a bit uncommon. :)     > The major opportunity one has for a consistent hum in the system is the common leg.  Bad audio circuits introduce noticeable interference that is usually more harsh than the hum experienced.  That usually ends up being through the common.  I had a link (now dead unfortunately) for older MSI laptops that experienced this problem.     >>    Well, audio is the red-headed stepchild of the laptop world; generally,     >>    nobody cares about it, so it wouldn't be too odd to find a laptop with a     >>    designed-in bad ground. At that point, though, no filtering would help:     >>    you'd need to fix the actual problem. You do realize that a laptop is isolated from earth ground?  You do not have to have a bad ground to have a ground loop.  What would a bad ground be since the laptop is isolated from earth ground?  Diodes protect clock circuits from common and even the digital to audio converter (DAC): however, they are't used in the output for the speakers. --- On Wed, 12/14/11, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Music lovers... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, December 14, 2011, 7:15 PM On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 03:07:26PM -0800, will jones wrote: > You are correct on much of this and really most of the items that are partially correct are not worth the pain of discourse for the group.  Please keep in mind I was just generalizing for community at large and nothing I said was misleading, incorrect, nor improperly applied. We never did establish what a "ground loop conditioner" might be - as I'd mentioned, Google brings up nothing relevant. Personally, I can't imagine what - other than a proper ground - could cure a bad ground or "condition" it. A ground is the "sink" - the return point for all the voltage in the system.  If it is not sinking the return voltage, including random broad-spectrum signals - a.k.a. noise - then you have a bad ground, The solution for that is not to "condition" it but to fix it - i.e., connect a wire (not a circuit of any sort) between your system and a good ground. Half the function of a filter is to short the undesirable frequencies to ground (the other half is to present them with a high series impedance.) If a filter can't short that signal to ground, it doesn't work. If it can, then that signal is gone, and cannot return to the circuit. (Of course, old Ben Franklin confused the source of electrons (negative) with the return side (positive), but no one other than physicists actually cares: the system works as long as you're consistent. So, for our purposes, the ground is indeed the sink.) > I will say a few things for clarification.  The hum,  typically 50 to 60Hz, heard in the analog speakers, is typically a ground loop.  This is because common is not isolated and is coupled with the AC input at the power supply, regardless of whether you are using a wall transformer or not. I agree that the AC is coupled - whether through the power supply or just through lack of good isolation (the point that wild_explorer brought up.) Easy to prevent either one in the design and the manufacturing stage, hard to do after... > I am not sure why you introduced the audio cable issue, I didn't; I was speaking of AC cables, and the effect they have on high-end audio equipment. Sorry I didn't make the connection clearer: to me, the fact that people pay $400 for these, and that nothing like that exists for computer equipment, means that audio equipment is significantly affected by AC-induced noise issues while computer equipment isn't. > however the digital component of the audio system is producing a digital signal into the digital audio converter (DAC) , with the typical analog audio output, from the DAC, in the 20-30milliWatt range rated typically for 16ohms. > > As you undoubtedly know, speakers are analog devices that use a logarithmic scale (decibels). Small but important distinction: speakers are actually linear devices (inductors) - but the way we humans perceive sound is best expressed on the decibel (absolute) scale. I.e., 20dB(a) sounds twice as loud to us as 10dB(a), but the actual power ratio is 10:1. > Interestingly enough, typical computer speakers are rated around 30Watts at 4-6 ohms. 8 ohms is pretty much standard for small speakers. Both 4 and 6 ohm speakers tend to be specialty items. > Sooooo one needs to boost the DAC output roughly 10,000 times to hear them at any reasonable level in the speakers.  Of course this is off the cuff since I haven't corrected for the difference in impedance and the boost isn't actually 10K, at least in a single step. Yeah, 40dB audio amps are a bit uncommon. :) > The major opportunity one has for a consistent hum in the system is the common leg.  Bad audio circuits introduce noticeable interference that is usually more harsh than the hum experienced.  That usually ends up being through the common.  I had a link (now dead unfortunately) for older MSI laptops that experienced this problem. Well, audio is the red-headed stepchild of the laptop world; generally, nobody cares about it, so it wouldn't be too odd to find a laptop with a designed-in bad ground. At that point, though, no filtering would help: you'd need to fix the actual problem. Ben --                        OKOPNIK CONSULTING         Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming   443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27357|22|2011-12-29 12:09:27|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./229seq11-DR15-11.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Working on the accommodation. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229seq11-DR15-11.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 27358|27316|2011-12-29 15:48:44|scott|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|been a while since I bought about 3 years.. but I got it at lowes hardware then if I remember right. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Where do you find $20.00 a gallon paint? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: audeojude@... > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:15:31 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes you can. It won't last quite as long as the expensive 2 part paints but it cost 1/10 the cost. I have used glidden oil base floor and deck paints at 20 dollars a gallon to paint the decks of a boat before. Worked great and had about 6 year life span. After that it started crazing a little. However I didn't do a lot of surface prep to the fibreglass deck that had been painted before. Just pressure washed and painted. Light colors are king on deck :) > > scott > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a black PVC pipe over it. > > > > > > Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of oil base enamel? > > > > > > Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27359|27338|2011-12-29 15:51:08|scott|Re: airhead vent|Our head is just aft of the vbeth and we vent to the dorade that is over the head compartment. We have not had any odor on deck to date after a year and a half of part time use of our composting head. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? > > I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. > > Anybody see a problem with that option? > | 27360|27360|2011-12-29 16:46:20|Mark Hamill|Cheap Paint|Where to find Cheap Paint?? "Liquidation" stores--at one in Calgary they had 20 5 gal pails of Marine Paint for $35 a pail but ...dark brown, Brent has mentioned that in BC-- recycle depots--just sign for it, paint stores often have mistints, post a Craiglist ad asking for paint, some communities have a paint/chemicals exchange day, ask around at the local boat yards. Others?? MarkH| 27361|27360|2011-12-29 17:29:15|martin demers|Re: Cheap Paint|Not in Qu�bec though, unless someone knows about it! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 13:46:37 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] Cheap Paint Where to find Cheap Paint?? "Liquidation" stores--at one in Calgary they had 20 5 gal pails of Marine Paint for $35 a pail but ...dark brown, Brent has mentioned that in BC-- recycle depots--just sign for it, paint stores often have mistints, post a Craiglist ad asking for paint, some communities have a paint/chemicals exchange day, ask around at the local boat yards. Others?? MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27362|27316|2011-12-30 09:27:50|martin demers|Re: rigging end Moitessier style|CAN we have paint ship within Canada thrue UPS, post,FED ex... I Know you cant from USA Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: audeojude@... Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:48:42 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style been a while since I bought about 3 years.. but I got it at lowes hardware then if I remember right. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Where do you find $20.00 a gallon paint? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: audeojude@... > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:15:31 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes you can. It won't last quite as long as the expensive 2 part paints but it cost 1/10 the cost. I have used glidden oil base floor and deck paints at 20 dollars a gallon to paint the decks of a boat before. Worked great and had about 6 year life span. After that it started crazing a little. However I didn't do a lot of surface prep to the fibreglass deck that had been painted before. Just pressure washed and painted. Light colors are king on deck :) > > scott > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a black PVC pipe over it. > > > > > > Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of oil base enamel? > > > > > > Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27363|27360|2011-12-30 13:45:52|Mark Hamill|Re: Cheap Paint|options for recycled paint in Quebec--Google "paint recycle quebec" ----- Original Message ----- From: "martin demers" To: Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:29 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Cheap Paint Not in Québec though, unless someone knows about it! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 13:46:37 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] Cheap Paint Where to find Cheap Paint?? "Liquidation" stores--at one in Calgary they had 20 5 gal pails of Marine Paint for $35 a pail but ...dark brown, Brent has mentioned that in BC-- recycle depots--just sign for it, paint stores often have mistints, post a Craiglist ad asking for paint, some communities have a paint/chemicals exchange day, ask around at the local boat yards. Others?? MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 27364|27360|2011-12-30 14:21:45|martin demers|Re: Cheap Paint|Until now I found indoor recycle paint only, I Will do another Google search, maybe someone came up with something Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 10:45:50 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Cheap Paint options for recycled paint in Quebec--Google "paint recycle quebec" ----- Original Message ----- From: "martin demers" To: Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:29 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Cheap Paint Not in Qu�bec though, unless someone knows about it! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 13:46:37 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] Cheap Paint Where to find Cheap Paint?? "Liquidation" stores--at one in Calgary they had 20 5 gal pails of Marine Paint for $35 a pail but ...dark brown, Brent has mentioned that in BC-- recycle depots--just sign for it, paint stores often have mistints, post a Craiglist ad asking for paint, some communities have a paint/chemicals exchange day, ask around at the local boat yards. Others?? MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27365|27365|2011-12-30 15:17:14|Alan|steel rod upper shrouds|I was wondering if anybody has used steel rod for their upper shrouds. It seems to me that if you are going to build a steel tube mast that it would simplify things to run rod from the mast to the spreader tips and from tip to tip. I should be very effective in stiffening the mast and have the advantage of eliminating a chainplate. If any of you have experience, pro or con, I would appreciate hearing about it.| 27366|27365|2011-12-30 15:56:14|martin demers|Re: steel rod upper shrouds|I think racing boats use something similar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: abellzey@... Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:17:09 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] steel rod upper shrouds I was wondering if anybody has used steel rod for their upper shrouds. It seems to me that if you are going to build a steel tube mast that it would simplify things to run rod from the mast to the spreader tips and from tip to tip. I should be very effective in stiffening the mast and have the advantage of eliminating a chainplate. If any of you have experience, pro or con, I would appreciate hearing about it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27367|27360|2011-12-30 17:36:25|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: Cheap Paint Canada shipping|I had a gallon of antifouling paint shipped from Vancouver as the Courtenay dealer could not match the price, inc shipping was $20 less from Vancouver. ----- Original Message ----- From: martin demers Date: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:29 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Cheap Paint To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Not in Québec though, unless someone knows about it! > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 13:46:37 -0800 > Subject: [origamiboats] Cheap Paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > >   > > >     >       >       >       Where to find Cheap Paint?? > > "Liquidation" stores--at one in Calgary they had 20 5 gal pails > of Marine > > Paint for $35 a pail but ...dark brown, Brent has mentioned that > in BC--  > > recycle depots--just sign for it, paint stores often have > mistints, post a > > Craiglist ad asking for paint, some communities have a > paint/chemicals > > exchange day, ask around at the local boat yards. Others?? MarkH > > > > > > >     >      > >     >     > > > > > > >   > > > > > > >                                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   > origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message > to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27368|26813|2011-12-31 11:21:20|martin demers|Re: ferrocement boat Re: "black" from aluminum on skin or gear|When I was in Australia, we left northern Queensland for Darwin in a 40ft ferro-cement motorsailor, after everything went wrong; main sail ripped, jib stuck around forestay, fishing line stuck around the propeler, we came back to the marina on a weak engine where after a quick check up the owner discovered that there was one bolt left to hold the propeler shaft on the transmission and the yoke was grinding in the cement...could have been worse if it had happened farther away... a steel hull would not grind trough in a short time in the same situation... Also, if I have to go on someone else boat another time , I''ll have a look all around the boat before we leave to be sure everything is in good working order... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kimdxx@... Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 02:24:28 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ferrocement boat Re: "black" from aluminum on skin or gear Hi Roy ... The first "big" boat I built for myself was a ferrocement yacht - a centerboard "Shoalwater 31" design by Len Hedges. It had 3" deep truss frames at 3' centers, main reinforcing was 3"x1"x1/4" welded mesh which was covered on both sides by a single layer of light 1/2"x1/2" welded mesh. Thousands of wire ties at about 2" centers. The finished hull skin was a bit over 1/2" thick. Given a good design, ferrocement does not necessarily always mean "heavy". As Denis has already pointed out, the type of plaster, the cement components, the various additives, the type and size of aggregate, the water content, and how it's mixed, is absolutely and utterly critical!! To give just one small example: there's a chemical (the name of which I have now forgotten) that must be added (in trace amounts) to the mix to prevent the lime in the cement reacting with the galvanising on the reinforcement - leave that out and you will have a floating disaster on your hands. On "plastering day" I gathered a huge crowd of friends and family to help (about 150 signed the visitors book!) with 5 large cement mixers running at once. The plastering was done in one hit and was finished in less than 3 hours!! The boat was then covered in water hoses, sealed in plastic, and allowed to cure for 5 weeks. The curing process used a massive amount of water. After it was cured, Len Hedges told me to fill the hull to the gunnels with water to test the hull strength, which it passed. All that was over 30 years ago. Although I sold the boat a long time ago, it's still going strong! A French guy by the name of Joseph-Louis Lambot built a ferrocement dinghy in 1848 and apparently it still floats. There are numerous stories on the web of ferro boats surviving extraordinary conditions. So I'm not at all averse to ferrocement boats. But ... Building a ferro hull will take you far longer than any other type of construction. It's unbelievably labour-intensive! The hull can be very low maintenance; but only of you get your cement mix absolutely perfect. The hull strength will be much the same (maybe a bit less) than a similar planked timber boat. It will have extremely low abrasive resistance (such as gently rubbing against rock or coral). Hitting something sharp (such as a submerged container or log) will pretty easily pierce the hull. During the 1970's it seemed every man and his dog was building a ferro boat; but not any more. It's been decades since I've seen anyone building in ferro. In Australia, it is almost completely impossible to obtain any type of insurance, at any price, for any type of ferrocement boat. There are good reasons for that! Cheers ... Kim. ____________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roy wrote: > > Yes, steel does have this "give" factor where it will dent up before being punctured and this gives them an insurance edge ... that is one thing I like about steel ... > > and usually with the bigger boats, there is outer hull and an inner hull ... not long ago, there is one navy submarine running into a wall of dirt that was raised underwater in an earthquake ... apparently its outer skin in its bow got smashed, but the inner pressure hull wasn't ... > > And as to the "denting" the concrete ... I don't think it is of any > concern especially since I am looking at using it chiefly in waters > way off shorelines, where there is not much to bump into ... and if it is 7 - 10" thick, it does take a lot to smash it! ... > > besides ... I am not expecting to go fast, either ... chances are small that forces needed to destroy it is not there for me to worry about ... > > and as to concrete ... The thing I like about it is that it is "moldable" ... much like the clay in sculpture ... it makes it easier for me to smooth curves out and mold various parts into one smooth body ... I do not have this skill to be that good with steel yet > > The weight factor ... is not that much of a concern with the submarines, as it does help with reducing the need for ballast, for one thing ... > > --- On Sun, 10/30/11, scott wrote: > > From: scott > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "black" from aluminum on skin or gear > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, October 30, 2011, 2:56 PM > > umm.. I have looked into ferocement boats extensively and I don't think they are even close to as light and strong as steel or aluminium. > > Not saying you can't make a very nice boat out it but they have a reputation from being heavy and you being able to punch holes in them that would just leave a big dent in a steel boat. Same situation as fiberglass.. They just don't give much comparatively where the metals will bend and then deform before cracking or tearing. > > I would never ever build a ferrocement boat. I would think about buying a nice one used. You just about can't give one away so they make a very good value used for the buyer. Not so much for the seller. > > scott ____________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27369|22|2011-12-31 12:49:41|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./229seq12-pic3.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Launching SeaQuence. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229seq12-pic3.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 27370|27365|2011-12-31 13:37:21|Matt Malone|Re: steel rod upper shrouds|Removing the chainplate, would that make the rod attached ? As in permanent ? If the mast ever has to come down, and be laid down, the fixed parts would make it more awkward. One problem with rod rigging has a greater potential for aerodynamically-driven vibration. Cables waste aerodynamic energy more easily so they do not vibrate as easily. Also, when they do vibrate, they lose more energy flexing, so, the vibrations are more likely to remain in control. Rod rigging can "ring" and sustain a vibration more easily, losing less energy in each cycle. When the energy gained in each cycle from the wind exceeds the energy lost in each cycle, the vibration grows. Vibration in the rigging can put tremendous tension pulses in the chainplates. With sustained vibration of a certain dimension (centimeters side to side in a shroud length of 5 meters), the thicker dimension of the solid wire means higher strain in the rod rigging over the individual wires in a cable, so, there is more potential for a fatigue fracture. Yes, rod rigging is used, but, someone else designed that, and looked into the vibration problems already. Cable is just so much easier. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 15:56:10 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] steel rod upper shrouds > > I think racing boats use something similar > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: abellzey@... > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:17:09 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] steel rod upper shrouds > > > I was wondering if anybody has used steel rod for their upper shrouds. It seems to me that if you are going to build a steel tube mast that it would simplify things to run rod from the mast to the spreader tips and from tip to tip. I should be very effective in stiffening the mast and have the advantage of eliminating a chainplate. If any of you have experience, pro or con, I would appreciate hearing about it. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27371|27338|2011-12-31 19:28:36|Mark Hamill|Re: airhead vent|i was wondering if you could connect the vent to the chimney for the wood stove if you have one. May not be big enough to match the airhead outlet?? and would it draw enough in the fan off mode (if there is such a mode??) Just a thought. And all the best in the New Year to everyone. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27372|27339|2012-01-01 20:48:39|Keith green|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|Been away for a week so i'm a bit late coming on this but doesn't look like anyone else has replied. I have one of those wet blasters and it works great. Princess Auto, about $70. You can use regular sand but it has to be screened and cleaned of large pieces and debris that would clog the tip. The abrasive they sell for it works better but is a total loss once you use it. The upside is you can blast just about anywhere and it doesn't heat up and warp thin material like dry abrasive would. You might put a back-flow preventer on the hose somehow in case abrasive could possibly get aspirated back into the pump. Don't know if that could happen but it would not be good if it did :) It's just a tip that screws onto the end of your pressure washer like a regular tip but has a pick-up hose hanging down from it. You need a decent pressure washer for it; minimum size is labelled on the box but I can't remember it now, 2500 psi is what we used but I don't remember the flow rate. Not as effective as the huge one in the shipyard I saw years ago, but very effective nonetheless. Did an old rusty dingy trailer with it and just used playsand in 5 gallon buckets in the back alley behind my buddies house . We just stayed away from the storm drain and swept up the debris after the water drained off. Keith On 12/28/2011 8:08 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > I could not find exact device I was talking about on Internet (may be I was not looking hard enough). Closest thing I could find which use the same principle (water-sand mixture pumping - sand is under water, not just wet sand). > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CgP7cQu8Kk4 > > Similar pump type is probably used in such devices > > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/440051381/Sand_Pumping_Machine.html > > Pressure washer using dry sand does not look good at all as a "wet sand blaster" ;( > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: >> This is an attachment: Warning: Mute the sound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqPiF49DZu4 >> >> I don't think that will lift wet sand, but I bet it would work if you gravity feed it wet sand. >> >> It looks really slow and they are not cutting much off.  But nothing more HP and a bigger pump would not correct. >> >>  >> Doug >> SVSeeker.com > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27373|27339|2012-01-02 11:36:13|martin demers|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|Doesn't the metal start to rust after wet blast? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ksgg@... Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:47:59 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster Been away for a week so i'm a bit late coming on this but doesn't look like anyone else has replied. I have one of those wet blasters and it works great. Princess Auto, about $70. You can use regular sand but it has to be screened and cleaned of large pieces and debris that would clog the tip. The abrasive they sell for it works better but is a total loss once you use it. The upside is you can blast just about anywhere and it doesn't heat up and warp thin material like dry abrasive would. You might put a back-flow preventer on the hose somehow in case abrasive could possibly get aspirated back into the pump. Don't know if that could happen but it would not be good if it did :) It's just a tip that screws onto the end of your pressure washer like a regular tip but has a pick-up hose hanging down from it. You need a decent pressure washer for it; minimum size is labelled on the box but I can't remember it now, 2500 psi is what we used but I don't remember the flow rate. Not as effective as the huge one in the shipyard I saw years ago, but very effective nonetheless. Did an old rusty dingy trailer with it and just used playsand in 5 gallon buckets in the back alley behind my buddies house . We just stayed away from the storm drain and swept up the debris after the water drained off. Keith On 12/28/2011 8:08 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > I could not find exact device I was talking about on Internet (may be I was not looking hard enough). Closest thing I could find which use the same principle (water-sand mixture pumping - sand is under water, not just wet sand). > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CgP7cQu8Kk4 > > Similar pump type is probably used in such devices > > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/440051381/Sand_Pumping_Machine.html > > Pressure washer using dry sand does not look good at all as a "wet sand blaster" ;( > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: >> This is an attachment:� Warning: Mute the sound.� http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqPiF49DZu4 >> >> I don't think that will lift wet sand, but I bet it would work if you gravity feed it wet sand. >> >> It looks really slow and they are not cutting much off. � But nothing more HP and a bigger pump would not correct. >> >> � >> Doug >> SVSeeker.com > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27374|27339|2012-01-02 12:54:33|James Pronk|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|That was my question two! How do you dry the steel before you paint? James --- On Mon, 1/2/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, January 2, 2012, 11:36 AM Doesn't the metal start to rust after wet blast? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ksgg@... Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:47:59 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster                              Been away for a week so i'm a bit late coming on this but doesn't look like anyone else has replied.      I have one of those wet blasters and it works great. Princess Auto, about $70. You can use regular sand but it has to be screened and cleaned of large pieces and debris that would clog the tip. The abrasive they sell for it works better but is a total loss once you use it. The upside is you can blast just about anywhere and it doesn't heat up and warp thin material like dry abrasive would.      You might put a back-flow preventer on the hose somehow in case abrasive could possibly get aspirated back into the pump. Don't know if that could happen but it would not be good if it did :)      It's just a tip that screws onto the end of your pressure washer like a regular tip but has a pick-up hose hanging down from it. You need a decent pressure washer for it; minimum size is labelled on the box but I can't remember it now, 2500 psi is what we used but I don't remember the flow rate.      Not as effective as the huge one in the shipyard I saw years ago, but very effective nonetheless. Did an old rusty dingy trailer with it and just used playsand in 5 gallon buckets in the back alley behind my buddies house . We just stayed away from the storm drain and swept up the debris after the water drained off. Keith On 12/28/2011 8:08 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > I could not find exact device I was talking about on Internet (may be I was not looking hard enough). Closest thing I could find which use the same principle (water-sand mixture pumping - sand is under water, not just wet sand). > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CgP7cQu8Kk4 > > Similar pump type is probably used in such devices > > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/440051381/Sand_Pumping_Machine.html > > Pressure washer using dry sand does not look good at all as a "wet sand blaster" ;( > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson  wrote: >> This is an attachment: Warning: Mute the sound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqPiF49DZu4 >> >> I don't think that will lift wet sand, but I bet it would work if you gravity feed it wet sand. >> >> It looks really slow and they are not cutting much off.  But nothing more HP and a bigger pump would not correct. >> >>  >> Doug >> SVSeeker.com > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > >                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27375|27339|2012-01-02 13:30:35|brentswain38|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|it only works in hot , dry weather. Friends wetblasted in Ventura California, in hot dry summer weather, ran around behind the blaster wiping it dry as he blasted it. It got an instant light rust sheen, but not enough to stop the epoxy tar from sticking for years after. Wasser tar is more forgiving of residual moisture, being a moisture cured urethane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > That was my question two! How do you dry the steel before you paint? > James > > --- On Mon, 1/2/12, martin demers wrote: > > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Monday, January 2, 2012, 11:36 AM > > > Doesn't the metal start to rust after wet blast? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ksgg@... > Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:47:59 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � > > > � � > � � � > � � � > � � � > > � ���Been away for a week so i'm a bit late coming on this but doesn't > > look like anyone else has replied. > > � ���I have one of those wet blasters and it works great. Princess Auto, > > about $70. You can use regular sand but it has to be screened and > > cleaned of large pieces and debris that would clog the tip. The abrasive > > they sell for it works better but is a total loss once you use it. The > > upside is you can blast just about anywhere and it doesn't heat up and > > warp thin material like dry abrasive would. > > � ���You might put a back-flow preventer on the hose somehow in case > > abrasive could possibly get aspirated back into the pump. Don't know if > > that could happen but it would not be good if it did :) > > � ���It's just a tip that screws onto the end of your pressure washer > > like a regular tip but has a pick-up hose hanging down from it. You need > > a decent pressure washer for it; minimum size is labelled on the box but > > I can't remember it now, 2500 psi is what we used but I don't remember > > the flow rate. > > � ���Not as effective as the huge one in the shipyard I saw years ago, > > but very effective nonetheless. Did an old rusty dingy trailer with it > > and just used playsand in 5 gallon buckets in the back alley behind my > > buddies house . We just stayed away from the storm drain and swept up > > the debris after the water drained off. > > > > Keith > > > > On 12/28/2011 8:08 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > I could not find exact device I was talking about on Internet (may be I was not looking hard enough). Closest thing I could find which use the same principle (water-sand mixture pumping - sand is under water, not just wet sand). > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CgP7cQu8Kk4 > > > > > > Similar pump type is probably used in such devices > > > > > > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/440051381/Sand_Pumping_Machine.html > > > > > > Pressure washer using dry sand does not look good at all as a "wet sand blaster" ;( > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson� wrote: > > >> This is an attachment:� Warning: Mute the sound.� http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqPiF49DZu4 > > >> > > >> I don't think that will lift wet sand, but I bet it would work if you gravity feed it wet sand. > > >> > > >> It looks really slow and they are not cutting much off. � But nothing more HP and a bigger pump would not correct. > > >> > > >> � > > >> Doug > > >> SVSeeker.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � � > � ��� > > � � > � � > > > > > > > � > > > > > > > ��� �������� ������ ��� � > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27376|27339|2012-01-02 13:33:02|Doug Jackson|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|Mine shows rust overnight.  I think the trick is to blast an area, pressure wash it, let it dry and paint it all in one day.    Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster Doesn't the metal start to rust after wet blast? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ksgg@... Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:47:59 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster                             Been away for a week so i'm a bit late coming on this but doesn't look like anyone else has replied.     I have one of those wet blasters and it works great. Princess Auto, about $70. You can use regular sand but it has to be screened and cleaned of large pieces and debris that would clog the tip. The abrasive they sell for it works better but is a total loss once you use it. The upside is you can blast just about anywhere and it doesn't heat up and warp thin material like dry abrasive would.     You might put a back-flow preventer on the hose somehow in case abrasive could possibly get aspirated back into the pump. Don't know if that could happen but it would not be good if it did :)     It's just a tip that screws onto the end of your pressure washer like a regular tip but has a pick-up hose hanging down from it. You need a decent pressure washer for it; minimum size is labelled on the box but I can't remember it now, 2500 psi is what we used but I don't remember the flow rate.     Not as effective as the huge one in the shipyard I saw years ago, but very effective nonetheless. Did an old rusty dingy trailer with it and just used playsand in 5 gallon buckets in the back alley behind my buddies house . We just stayed away from the storm drain and swept up the debris after the water drained off. Keith On 12/28/2011 8:08 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > I could not find exact device I was talking about on Internet (may be I was not looking hard enough). Closest thing I could find which use the same principle (water-sand mixture pumping - sand is under water, not just wet sand). > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CgP7cQu8Kk4 > > Similar pump type is probably used in such devices > > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/440051381/Sand_Pumping_Machine.html > > Pressure washer using dry sand does not look good at all as a "wet sand blaster" ;( > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson  wrote: >> This is an attachment: Warning: Mute the sound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqPiF49DZu4 >> >> I don't think that will lift wet sand, but I bet it would work if you gravity feed it wet sand. >> >> It looks really slow and they are not cutting much off.  But nothing more HP and a bigger pump would not correct. >> >>  >> Doug >> SVSeeker.com > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > >                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27377|27339|2012-01-02 13:40:17|Doug Jackson|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|Solar and Wind Energy. ;)   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 11:54 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster   That was my question two! How do you dry the steel before you paint? James --- On Mon, 1/2/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, January 2, 2012, 11:36 AM Doesn't the metal start to rust after wet blast? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ksgg@... Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:47:59 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster                              Been away for a week so i'm a bit late coming on this but doesn't look like anyone else has replied.      I have one of those wet blasters and it works great. Princess Auto, about $70. You can use regular sand but it has to be screened and cleaned of large pieces and debris that would clog the tip. The abrasive they sell for it works better but is a total loss once you use it. The upside is you can blast just about anywhere and it doesn't heat up and warp thin material like dry abrasive would.      You might put a back-flow preventer on the hose somehow in case abrasive could possibly get aspirated back into the pump. Don't know if that could happen but it would not be good if it did :)      It's just a tip that screws onto the end of your pressure washer like a regular tip but has a pick-up hose hanging down from it. You need a decent pressure washer for it; minimum size is labelled on the box but I can't remember it now, 2500 psi is what we used but I don't remember the flow rate.      Not as effective as the huge one in the shipyard I saw years ago, but very effective nonetheless. Did an old rusty dingy trailer with it and just used playsand in 5 gallon buckets in the back alley behind my buddies house . We just stayed away from the storm drain and swept up the debris after the water drained off. Keith On 12/28/2011 8:08 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > I could not find exact device I was talking about on Internet (may be I was not looking hard enough). Closest thing I could find which use the same principle (water-sand mixture pumping - sand is under water, not just wet sand). > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CgP7cQu8Kk4 > > Similar pump type is probably used in such devices > > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/440051381/Sand_Pumping_Machine.html > > Pressure washer using dry sand does not look good at all as a "wet sand blaster" ;( > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson  wrote: >> This is an attachment: Warning: Mute the sound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqPiF49DZu4 >> >> I don't think that will lift wet sand, but I bet it would work if you gravity feed it wet sand. >> >> It looks really slow and they are not cutting much off.  But nothing more HP and a bigger pump would not correct. >> >>  >> Doug >> SVSeeker.com > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > >                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27378|27339|2012-01-02 13:43:27|Doug Jackson|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|Oh Right. There's a down side to living up in beautiful British Colombia.  Hot and dry is in ample supply in Oklahoma. :)   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 12:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster   it only works in hot , dry weather. Friends wetblasted in Ventura California, in hot dry summer weather, ran around behind the blaster wiping it dry as he blasted it. It got an instant light rust sheen, but not enough to stop the epoxy tar from sticking for years after. Wasser tar is more forgiving of residual moisture, being a moisture cured urethane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > That was my question two! How do you dry the steel before you paint? > James > > --- On Mon, 1/2/12, martin demers wrote: > > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Monday, January 2, 2012, 11:36 AM > > > Doesn't the metal start to rust after wet blast? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ksgg@... > Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:47:59 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � > > > � � > � � � > � � � > � � � > > � ���Been away for a week so i'm a bit late coming on this but doesn't > > look like anyone else has replied. > > � ���I have one of those wet blasters and it works great. Princess Auto, > > about $70. You can use regular sand but it has to be screened and > > cleaned of large pieces and debris that would clog the tip. The abrasive > > they sell for it works better but is a total loss once you use it. The > > upside is you can blast just about anywhere and it doesn't heat up and > > warp thin material like dry abrasive would. > > � ���You might put a back-flow preventer on the hose somehow in case > > abrasive could possibly get aspirated back into the pump. Don't know if > > that could happen but it would not be good if it did :) > > � ���It's just a tip that screws onto the end of your pressure washer > > like a regular tip but has a pick-up hose hanging down from it. You need > > a decent pressure washer for it; minimum size is labelled on the box but > > I can't remember it now, 2500 psi is what we used but I don't remember > > the flow rate. > > � ���Not as effective as the huge one in the shipyard I saw years ago, > > but very effective nonetheless. Did an old rusty dingy trailer with it > > and just used playsand in 5 gallon buckets in the back alley behind my > > buddies house . We just stayed away from the storm drain and swept up > > the debris after the water drained off. > > > > Keith > > > > On 12/28/2011 8:08 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > I could not find exact device I was talking about on Internet (may be I was not looking hard enough). Closest thing I could find which use the same principle (water-sand mixture pumping - sand is under water, not just wet sand). > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CgP7cQu8Kk4 > > > > > > Similar pump type is probably used in such devices > > > > > > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/440051381/Sand_Pumping_Machine.html > > > > > > Pressure washer using dry sand does not look good at all as a "wet sand blaster" ;( > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson� wrote: > > >> This is an attachment:� Warning: Mute the sound.� http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqPiF49DZu4 > > >> > > >> I don't think that will lift wet sand, but I bet it would work if you gravity feed it wet sand. > > >> > > >> It looks really slow and they are not cutting much off. � But nothing more HP and a bigger pump would not correct. > > >> > > >> � > > >> Doug > > >> SVSeeker.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � � > � ��� > > � � > � � > > > > > > > � > > > > > > > ��� �������� ������ ��� � > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27379|27339|2012-01-02 14:01:06|James Pronk|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|I guess you could shut the water/sand off and blow-dry the steel? James --- On Mon, 1/2/12, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Monday, January 2, 2012, 1:43 PM   Oh Right. There's a down side to living up in beautiful British Colombia.  Hot and dry is in ample supply in Oklahoma. :)   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 12:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster   it only works in hot , dry weather. Friends wetblasted in Ventura California, in hot dry summer weather, ran around behind the blaster wiping it dry as he blasted it. It got an instant light rust sheen, but not enough to stop the epoxy tar from sticking for years after. Wasser tar is more forgiving of residual moisture, being a moisture cured urethane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > That was my question two! How do you dry the steel before you paint? > James > > --- On Mon, 1/2/12, martin demers wrote: > > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Monday, January 2, 2012, 11:36 AM > > > Doesn't the metal start to rust after wet blast? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ksgg@... > Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:47:59 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � > > > � � > � � � > � � � > � � � > > � ���Been away for a week so i'm a bit late coming on this but doesn't > > look like anyone else has replied. > > � ���I have one of those wet blasters and it works great. Princess Auto, > > about $70. You can use regular sand but it has to be screened and > > cleaned of large pieces and debris that would clog the tip. The abrasive > > they sell for it works better but is a total loss once you use it. The > > upside is you can blast just about anywhere and it doesn't heat up and > > warp thin material like dry abrasive would. > > � ���You might put a back-flow preventer on the hose somehow in case > > abrasive could possibly get aspirated back into the pump. Don't know if > > that could happen but it would not be good if it did :) > > � ���It's just a tip that screws onto the end of your pressure washer > > like a regular tip but has a pick-up hose hanging down from it. You need > > a decent pressure washer for it; minimum size is labelled on the box but > > I can't remember it now, 2500 psi is what we used but I don't remember > > the flow rate. > > � ���Not as effective as the huge one in the shipyard I saw years ago, > > but very effective nonetheless. Did an old rusty dingy trailer with it > > and just used playsand in 5 gallon buckets in the back alley behind my > > buddies house . We just stayed away from the storm drain and swept up > > the debris after the water drained off. > > > > Keith > > > > On 12/28/2011 8:08 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > I could not find exact device I was talking about on Internet (may be I was not looking hard enough). Closest thing I could find which use the same principle (water-sand mixture pumping - sand is under water, not just wet sand). > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CgP7cQu8Kk4 > > > > > > Similar pump type is probably used in such devices > > > > > > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/440051381/Sand_Pumping_Machine.html > > > > > > Pressure washer using dry sand does not look good at all as a "wet sand blaster" ;( > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson� wrote: > > >> This is an attachment:� Warning: Mute the sound.� http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqPiF49DZu4 > > >> > > >> I don't think that will lift wet sand, but I bet it would work if you gravity feed it wet sand. > > >> > > >> It looks really slow and they are not cutting much off. � But nothing more HP and a bigger pump would not correct. > > >> > > >> � > > >> Doug > > >> SVSeeker.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � � > � ��� > > � � > � � > > > > > > > � > > > > > > > ��� �������� ������ ��� � > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27380|27339|2012-01-02 17:59:19|Doug Jackson|Re: Homemade SandBlaster|There is a considerable amount of moisture in the air from the compressor, but a torpedo heater would do the trick if you couldn't just wait for a warm sunny day.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster   I guess you could shut the water/sand off and blow-dry the steel? James --- On Mon, 1/2/12, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Monday, January 2, 2012, 1:43 PM   Oh Right. There's a down side to living up in beautiful British Colombia.  Hot and dry is in ample supply in Oklahoma. :)   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 12:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster   it only works in hot , dry weather. Friends wetblasted in Ventura California, in hot dry summer weather, ran around behind the blaster wiping it dry as he blasted it. It got an instant light rust sheen, but not enough to stop the epoxy tar from sticking for years after. Wasser tar is more forgiving of residual moisture, being a moisture cured urethane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > That was my question two! How do you dry the steel before you paint? > James > > --- On Mon, 1/2/12, martin demers wrote: > > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Monday, January 2, 2012, 11:36 AM > > > Doesn't the metal start to rust after wet blast? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ksgg@... > Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:47:59 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Homemade SandBlaster > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � > > > � � > � � � > � � � > � � � > > � ���Been away for a week so i'm a bit late coming on this but doesn't > > look like anyone else has replied. > > � ���I have one of those wet blasters and it works great. Princess Auto, > > about $70. You can use regular sand but it has to be screened and > > cleaned of large pieces and debris that would clog the tip. The abrasive > > they sell for it works better but is a total loss once you use it. The > > upside is you can blast just about anywhere and it doesn't heat up and > > warp thin material like dry abrasive would. > > � ���You might put a back-flow preventer on the hose somehow in case > > abrasive could possibly get aspirated back into the pump. Don't know if > > that could happen but it would not be good if it did :) > > � ���It's just a tip that screws onto the end of your pressure washer > > like a regular tip but has a pick-up hose hanging down from it. You need > > a decent pressure washer for it; minimum size is labelled on the box but > > I can't remember it now, 2500 psi is what we used but I don't remember > > the flow rate. > > � ���Not as effective as the huge one in the shipyard I saw years ago, > > but very effective nonetheless. Did an old rusty dingy trailer with it > > and just used playsand in 5 gallon buckets in the back alley behind my > > buddies house . We just stayed away from the storm drain and swept up > > the debris after the water drained off. > > > > Keith > > > > On 12/28/2011 8:08 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > I could not find exact device I was talking about on Internet (may be I was not looking hard enough). Closest thing I could find which use the same principle (water-sand mixture pumping - sand is under water, not just wet sand). > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CgP7cQu8Kk4 > > > > > > Similar pump type is probably used in such devices > > > > > > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/440051381/Sand_Pumping_Machine.html > > > > > > Pressure washer using dry sand does not look good at all as a "wet sand blaster" ;( > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson� wrote: > > >> This is an attachment:� Warning: Mute the sound.� http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqPiF49DZu4 > > >> > > >> I don't think that will lift wet sand, but I bet it would work if you gravity feed it wet sand. > > >> > > >> It looks really slow and they are not cutting much off. � But nothing more HP and a bigger pump would not correct. > > >> > > >> � > > >> Doug > > >> SVSeeker.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � � > � ��� > > � � > � � > > > > > > > � > > > > > > > ��� �������� ������ ��� � > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27381|27381|2012-01-06 00:07:24|mkriley48|wifi|looking for specific recommendations for a cheap wifi setup thanks mike| 27382|26545|2012-01-06 13:57:17|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php The company's representative was showing the equipment in our welding class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) will be available around summer 2012. Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site.| 27383|27381|2012-01-06 18:43:10|Jim Wright|Re: wifi|Mike, My wife and I first bought a commercial setup and installed it. It worked as long as there wasn't anything in the way between it and the hub, we then replaced it with another one and while it weas better, the signal was weak if you were more than 25 feet from it and sometimes the signal was so week that the other computers in the house wouldn't pick it up at all. We then bought a setup from Quest, (now Century Link) and it works great, no problems and whereever you are in the house it has a strong signal. it is a actiontek M1000 hub and a Actiontek W1000 wi-fi transmitter, they plug together and as I said, work great. Jim Wright [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27384|26545|2012-01-06 19:24:21|David Frantz|Re: Basic welding questions|Very impressive. One of the two models comes in at 33 pounds. That is a huge amount of functionality in such a light box. As a side note I was in Harbor Freight picking up year end deals the other day and spent some time looking over their welder selection. It has been a couple of years but they seem to have shrunk their inverters even more. Now some of the HF weldors get no respect but in the past one model actually got pretty good reviews by professional weldors. I'm not up on theses new models but the one was smaller than a loaf of bread. Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as to price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both Mig and stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it out? Sadly I think you have put me into a mode where I will have to resist temptation. No Budget for toys this year. Sent from my iPad On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php > > The company's representative was showing the equipment in our welding class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) will be available around summer 2012. > > Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. > > Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27385|26545|2012-01-06 20:43:18|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions|It looks like a model that Chiry welding is building. I had a look at them last year and they did not look bad. I went with an Everlast 205P. It is a mig/stick inverter and I am very happy with it. I have a spool gun with it that works great for aluminium. It also has a pulse function that is very nice. If I did not need a mig welder for my work I would have bought a 200 amp stick inverter for $375 James --- On Fri, 1/6/12, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Friday, January 6, 2012, 7:24 PM   Very impressive. One of the two models comes in at 33 pounds. That is a huge amount of functionality in such a light box. As a side note I was in Harbor Freight picking up year end deals the other day and spent some time looking over their welder selection. It has been a couple of years but they seem to have shrunk their inverters even more. Now some of the HF weldors get no respect but in the past one model actually got pretty good reviews by professional weldors. I'm not up on theses new models but the one was smaller than a loaf of bread. Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as to price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both Mig and stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it out? Sadly I think you have put me into a mode where I will have to resist temptation. No Budget for toys this year. Sent from my iPad On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php > > The company's representative was showing the equipment in our welding class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) will be available around summer 2012. > > Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. > > Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27386|26545|2012-01-07 12:58:58|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Small unit was set up for MIG welding to try. I do not know MIG welding yet, so I did not try it. Rep gave exact price for both units, but I do not remember details. Something around $1000 - better to ask company directly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > > Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as to price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both Mig and stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it out? Sadly I think you have put me into a mode where I will have to resist temptation. No Budget for toys this year. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php > > | 27387|27381|2012-01-07 13:23:59|mkriley48|Re: wifi|I meant for marine use and the operative word is CHEAP --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > looking for specific recommendations for a cheap wifi setup > thanks > mike > | 27388|27381|2012-01-07 14:18:15|Denis Buggy|Re: wifi|there are units for sale which use your household wiring to transmit up to 500mps along the earth or neutral wire in your house -- they are plug and play and you plug one in beside your router and plug its mate into any other location which has a shared neutral or earth wire -- try a web site called MAPLIN and there are 3 makers of these units on their catalogue --NETGEAR -DEVOLO--NETRICITY -- all used for networking for anything to anything to anywhare --- games ect . hope it helps --Denis Buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: mkriley48 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 6:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: wifi I meant for marine use and the operative word is CHEAP --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > looking for specific recommendations for a cheap wifi setup > thanks > mike > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27389|27381|2012-01-07 14:18:36|wild_explorer|Re: wifi|I believe, Ben recommended pretty good setup here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/24062 Not cheap, but this is the case when you try to save money combining "bits & peaces" you end up paying more. DO NOT use setup with coaxial cable - too much loses. I use Alpha USB adapter (500mw) with coaxial cable and DIY external antenna. Not greate, but usable in most cases. If I had above information before, I would go for that one. For extremely low budget $25-50 (Win/Linux) http://www.data-alliance.net/-strse-73/Alfa-AWUS036H-1000mW-USB/Detail.bok Better to buy 9dB antenna to replace stock 5dB. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > I meant for marine use and the operative word is CHEAP > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > looking for specific recommendations for a cheap wifi setup > > thanks > > mike > > > | 27390|27316|2012-01-07 17:34:42|martin demers|Re: rigging end Moitessier style RE cheap paint|Fisherman's paint at Home Hardware is now at $27.99 a gal.(3.78 l.) it seems to go up more or less a buck every year. martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: audeojude@... Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:48:42 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style been a while since I bought about 3 years.. but I got it at lowes hardware then if I remember right. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Where do you find $20.00 a gallon paint? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: audeojude@... > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:15:31 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes you can. It won't last quite as long as the expensive 2 part paints but it cost 1/10 the cost. I have used glidden oil base floor and deck paints at 20 dollars a gallon to paint the decks of a boat before. Worked great and had about 6 year life span. After that it started crazing a little. However I didn't do a lot of surface prep to the fibreglass deck that had been painted before. Just pressure washed and painted. Light colors are king on deck :) > > scott > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a black PVC pipe over it. > > > > > > Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of oil base enamel? > > > > > > Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27391|27316|2012-01-07 22:10:16|brentswain38|Re: rigging end Moitessier style RE cheap paint|It was $24.99 last summer. Time to check out other brands. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Fisherman's paint at Home Hardware is now at $27.99 a gal.(3.78 l.) it seems to go up more or less a buck every year. > > martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: audeojude@... > Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:48:42 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style > > > > > > > been a while since I bought about 3 years.. but I got it at lowes hardware then if I remember right. > scott > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Where do you find $20.00 a gallon paint? > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: audeojude@ > > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:15:31 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes you can. It won't last quite as long as the expensive 2 part paints but it cost 1/10 the cost. I have used glidden oil base floor and deck paints at 20 dollars a gallon to paint the decks of a boat before. Worked great and had about 6 year life span. After that it started crazing a little. However I didn't do a lot of surface prep to the fibreglass deck that had been painted before. Just pressure washed and painted. Light colors are king on deck :) > > > > scott > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a black PVC pipe over it. > > > > > > > > > > Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of oil base enamel? > > > > > > > > > > Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... > > > > > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27392|27316|2012-01-07 22:27:58|martin demers|Re: rigging end Moitessier style RE cheap paint|27.99 is in quebec, maybe cheaper in BC.(more boats) Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 03:10:13 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style RE cheap paint It was $24.99 last summer. Time to check out other brands. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Fisherman's paint at Home Hardware is now at $27.99 a gal.(3.78 l.) it seems to go up more or less a buck every year. > > martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: audeojude@... > Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:48:42 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style > > > > > > > been a while since I bought about 3 years.. but I got it at lowes hardware then if I remember right. > scott > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Where do you find $20.00 a gallon paint? > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: audeojude@ > > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:15:31 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rigging end Moitessier style > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes you can. It won't last quite as long as the expensive 2 part paints but it cost 1/10 the cost. I have used glidden oil base floor and deck paints at 20 dollars a gallon to paint the decks of a boat before. Worked great and had about 6 year life span. After that it started crazing a little. However I didn't do a lot of surface prep to the fibreglass deck that had been painted before. Just pressure washed and painted. Light colors are king on deck :) > > > > scott > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that using using tape to prevent the sails from catching in the clamps would hold moister, thus encouraging corrosion. I would simply slide a black PVC pipe over it. > > > > > > > > > > Regarding my paint question, anybody used oil base enamel as a top coat on their boat? Do you have to use marine enamel or can you simply use any kind of oil base enamel? > > > > > > > > > > Last summer I painted the top side of my plastic dinghy with anti-rust oil base enamel with good results, the guy that sold the paint to us said that some fishermen in the region used that stuff instead of marine paints.But I don't know how well it holds up... > > > > > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27393|27381|2012-01-09 23:31:49|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: wifi|I also use an Alfa USB mobile unit 1 W, upgraded to the 9 db antenna, together with "Realtec USB Client utility" software I drew from the original realtec site (2009) on a MacBook. I do nothing else than fixing the antenna-unit with the suction cup outside to a window or sometimes hanging it under the boom with an elastic. Works great even when lying distant from shore/village, 2/3 mile sightline to buildings (radar distance) produces very good to excellent connection, and the realtec sw shows all wlan-points (including hidden ESSID) in reach together with their status (busy/offline/WPA/WEP/open/strength of signal), so depending on where You are this setup could give You rapid access for nothing; it doesn't work as an opening tool for WEP/WPA, though, as far as I know. Bought hardware online for 29.- �, roundabout 21.- $ US, and would do it again without hesitation. Am 07.01.2012 um 20:18 schrieb wild_explorer: > I believe, Ben recommended pretty good setup here > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/24062 > > Not cheap, but this is the case when you try to save money combining "bits & peaces" you end up paying more. DO NOT use setup with coaxial cable - too much loses. > > I use Alpha USB adapter (500mw) with coaxial cable and DIY external antenna. Not greate, but usable in most cases. If I had above information before, I would go for that one. > > For extremely low budget $25-50 (Win/Linux) > > http://www.data-alliance.net/-strse-73/Alfa-AWUS036H-1000mW-USB/Detail.bok > > Better to buy 9dB antenna to replace stock 5dB. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > I meant for marine use and the operative word is CHEAP > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > looking for specific recommendations for a cheap wifi setup > > > thanks > > > mike > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27394|27394|2012-01-09 23:41:15|brentswain38|Extreme perfectionism|While it is important to pay close attention to matters which affect structural strength and things which contribute to seaworthiness, I have seen may people lose the dream due to excessive perfectionism, on things which really don't mater all that much. Worrying about a perfect fit in a gap which would actually improve the strength of a weld , due to better penetration,is just plain foolish. Weld failures on boats under 50 feet are almost unheard of, the weld being such a huge overkill compared to any loads which will be put on them. In over 40 years of messing around in boats, I've never seen it happen. A clean torch or plasma cut needs no grinding. Simply scraping the slag of with a heavy piece of plate is all that is needed. The only grinding justified is grinding the high points off. With the decline in the quality of plywood , salvaged plywood is a far better choice in BC than new stuff. Ditto a lot of the wood which goes into a boat. That which has been around a few years without delam is a far better choice and is far less likely to delam than new stuff. It has been tested. The sea doesn't give a rat's ass how perfect your interior joinery is. Concentrate your efforts on things which really matter. most people I know who have wasted years and mega bucks on foolish perfectionism, have all, after a few years of cruising experience , said "I'd never do it that way again.I could have been cruising years sooner, if I had been more practical."| 27395|26545|2012-01-10 18:55:07|martin demers|Re: Basic welding questions|you can get Thermal Arc 160 Amp stick welding inverter for a little more than $600.00 in Canada, anyone has experience with such unit. it can be use on both 115volts and 230 volts. does that seems like a good buy? more expensive than a $150.00 buzz box but very small and light to cary around. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:43:16 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions It looks like a model that Chiry welding is building. I had a look at them last year and they did not look bad. I went with an Everlast 205P. It is a mig/stick inverter and I am very happy with it. I have a spool gun with it that works great for aluminium. It also has a pulse function that is very nice. If I did not need a mig welder for my work I would have bought a 200 amp stick inverter for $375 James --- On Fri, 1/6/12, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Friday, January 6, 2012, 7:24 PM Very impressive. One of the two models comes in at 33 pounds. That is a huge amount of functionality in such a light box. As a side note I was in Harbor Freight picking up year end deals the other day and spent some time looking over their welder selection. It has been a couple of years but they seem to have shrunk their inverters even more. Now some of the HF weldors get no respect but in the past one model actually got pretty good reviews by professional weldors. I'm not up on theses new models but the one was smaller than a loaf of bread. Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as to price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both Mig and stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it out? Sadly I think you have put me into a mode where I will have to resist temptation. No Budget for toys this year. Sent from my iPad On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php > > The company's representative was showing the equipment in our welding class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) will be available around summer 2012. > > Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. > > Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27396|26545|2012-01-10 19:18:17|Paul Thompson|Re: Basic welding questions|Martin, I've had a ThermalArc 130 for 13 years now. It is in regular use and has never given trouble. I highly recommend it based on my experience. Paul Thompson On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 12:55 PM, martin demers wrote: > > you can get Thermal Arc 160 Amp stick welding inverter for a little more than $600.00 in Canada, anyone has experience with such unit. it can be use on both 115volts and 230 volts. >  does that seems like a good buy? > more expensive than a $150.00 buzz box but very small and light  to cary around. > > Martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jpronk1@... > Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:43:16 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > > > > It looks like a model that Chiry welding is building. I had a look at them last year and they did not look bad. > I went with an Everlast 205P. It is a mig/stick inverter and I am very happy with it. I have a spool gun with it that works great for aluminium. It also has a pulse function that is very nice. > If I did not need a mig welder for my work I would have bought a 200 amp stick inverter for $375 > James > > --- On Fri, 1/6/12, David Frantz wrote: > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Received: Friday, January 6, 2012, 7:24 PM > > > > Very impressive. One of the two models comes in at 33 pounds. That is a huge amount of functionality in such a light box. > > As a side note I was in Harbor Freight picking up year end deals the other day and spent some time looking over their welder selection. It has been a couple of years but they seem to have shrunk their inverters even more. Now some of the HF weldors get no respect but in the past one model actually got pretty good reviews by professional weldors. I'm not up on theses new models but the one was smaller than a loaf of bread. > > Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as to price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both Mig and stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it out? Sadly I think you have put me into a mode where I will have to resist temptation. No Budget for toys this year. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > >> If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php >> >> The company's representative was showing the equipment in our welding class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) will be available around summer 2012. >> >> Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. >> >> Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 27397|26545|2012-01-10 19:45:55|martin demers|Re: Basic welding questions|Paul, is it an inverter? if so, I didn't know they started making them that long ago. Thermal arc is much cheaper than other popular brands(Miller, Lincoln) of welding machine. martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pault@... Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:18:15 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions Martin, I've had a ThermalArc 130 for 13 years now. It is in regular use and has never given trouble. I highly recommend it based on my experience. Paul Thompson On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 12:55 PM, martin demers wrote: > > you can get Thermal Arc 160 Amp stick welding inverter for a little more than $600.00 in Canada, anyone has experience with such unit. it can be use on both 115volts and 230 volts. > does that seems like a good buy? > more expensive than a $150.00 buzz box but very small and light to cary around. > > Martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jpronk1@... > Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:43:16 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > > > > It looks like a model that Chiry welding is building. I had a look at them last year and they did not look bad. > I went with an Everlast 205P. It is a mig/stick inverter and I am very happy with it. I have a spool gun with it that works great for aluminium. It also has a pulse function that is very nice. > If I did not need a mig welder for my work I would have bought a 200 amp stick inverter for $375 > James > > --- On Fri, 1/6/12, David Frantz wrote: > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Received: Friday, January 6, 2012, 7:24 PM > > > > Very impressive. One of the two models comes in at 33 pounds. That is a huge amount of functionality in such a light box. > > As a side note I was in Harbor Freight picking up year end deals the other day and spent some time looking over their welder selection. It has been a couple of years but they seem to have shrunk their inverters even more. Now some of the HF weldors get no respect but in the past one model actually got pretty good reviews by professional weldors. I'm not up on theses new models but the one was smaller than a loaf of bread. > > Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as to price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both Mig and stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it out? Sadly I think you have put me into a mode where I will have to resist temptation. No Budget for toys this year. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > >> If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php >> >> The company's representative was showing the equipment in our welding class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) will be available around summer 2012. >> >> Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. >> >> Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27398|26545|2012-01-10 20:40:54|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Basic welding questions|Martin, I used to have a business partner that owned a gas supply business and he sold and serviced welding machines. I used to do the repairs and sometimes worked on POWCON inverter welders. This was at least 25 years ago. They were all owned by the shipyards, where a welder you could easily carry below decks was a big advantage. They were typically high capacity machines 400 to 800 amps continuous duty ratings! Gary H. Lucas -----Original Message----- From: martin demers Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 7:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions Paul, is it an inverter? if so, I didn't know they started making them that long ago. Thermal arc is much cheaper than other popular brands(Miller, Lincoln) of welding machine. martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pault@... Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:18:15 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions Martin, I've had a ThermalArc 130 for 13 years now. It is in regular use and has never given trouble. I highly recommend it based on my experience. Paul Thompson On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 12:55 PM, martin demers wrote: > > you can get Thermal Arc 160 Amp stick welding inverter for a little more > than $600.00 in Canada, anyone has experience with such unit. it can be > use on both 115volts and 230 volts. > does that seems like a good buy? > more expensive than a $150.00 buzz box but very small and light to cary > around. > > Martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jpronk1@... > Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:43:16 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > > > > It looks like a model that Chiry welding is building. I had a look at them > last year and they did not look bad. > I went with an Everlast 205P. It is a mig/stick inverter and I am very > happy with it. I have a spool gun with it that works great for aluminium. > It also has a pulse function that is very nice. > If I did not need a mig welder for my work I would have bought a 200 amp > stick inverter for $375 > James > > --- On Fri, 1/6/12, David Frantz wrote: > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Received: Friday, January 6, 2012, 7:24 PM > > > > Very impressive. One of the two models comes in at 33 pounds. That is a > huge amount of functionality in such a light box. > > As a side note I was in Harbor Freight picking up year end deals the other > day and spent some time looking over their welder selection. It has been a > couple of years but they seem to have shrunk their inverters even more. > Now some of the HF weldors get no respect but in the past one model > actually got pretty good reviews by professional weldors. I'm not up on > theses new models but the one was smaller than a loaf of bread. > > Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as to > price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both Mig and > stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it out? Sadly I > think you have put me into a mode where I will have to resist temptation. > No Budget for toys this year. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > >> If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, >> take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php >> >> The company's representative was showing the equipment in our welding >> class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) will be >> available around summer 2012. >> >> Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. >> >> Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/| 27399|26545|2012-01-10 20:44:05|martin demers|Re: Basic welding questions|Gary, I presume they were much more expensive 25 years ago, and not available for a bigger market. Martin. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gary.lucas@... > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 20:42:19 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > Martin, > I used to have a business partner that owned a gas supply business and he > sold and serviced welding machines. I used to do the repairs and sometimes > worked on POWCON inverter welders. This was at least 25 years ago. They > were all owned by the shipyards, where a welder you could easily carry below > decks was a big advantage. They were typically high capacity machines 400 to > 800 amps continuous duty ratings! > > Gary H. Lucas > > -----Original Message----- > From: martin demers > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 7:45 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > Paul, > > is it an inverter? > if so, I didn't know they started making them that long ago. > Thermal arc is much cheaper than other popular brands(Miller, Lincoln) of > welding machine. > > martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: pault@... > Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:18:15 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > > > > Martin, > > I've had a ThermalArc 130 for 13 years now. It is in regular use and > has never given trouble. I highly recommend it based on my experience. > > Paul Thompson > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 12:55 PM, martin demers > wrote: > > > > you can get Thermal Arc 160 Amp stick welding inverter for a little more > > than $600.00 in Canada, anyone has experience with such unit. it can be > > use on both 115volts and 230 volts. > > does that seems like a good buy? > > more expensive than a $150.00 buzz box but very small and light to cary > > around. > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: jpronk1@... > > Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:43:16 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It looks like a model that Chiry welding is building. I had a look at them > > last year and they did not look bad. > > I went with an Everlast 205P. It is a mig/stick inverter and I am very > > happy with it. I have a spool gun with it that works great for aluminium. > > It also has a pulse function that is very nice. > > If I did not need a mig welder for my work I would have bought a 200 amp > > stick inverter for $375 > > James > > > > --- On Fri, 1/6/12, David Frantz wrote: > > > > From: David Frantz > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Received: Friday, January 6, 2012, 7:24 PM > > > > > > > > Very impressive. One of the two models comes in at 33 pounds. That is a > > huge amount of functionality in such a light box. > > > > As a side note I was in Harbor Freight picking up year end deals the other > > day and spent some time looking over their welder selection. It has been a > > couple of years but they seem to have shrunk their inverters even more. > > Now some of the HF weldors get no respect but in the past one model > > actually got pretty good reviews by professional weldors. I'm not up on > > theses new models but the one was smaller than a loaf of bread. > > > > Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as to > > price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both Mig and > > stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it out? Sadly I > > think you have put me into a mode where I will have to resist temptation. > > No Budget for toys this year. > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > >> If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, > >> take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php > >> > >> The company's representative was showing the equipment in our welding > >> class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) will be > >> available around summer 2012. > >> > >> Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. > >> > >> Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site. > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27400|26545|2012-01-10 21:29:51|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Basic welding questions|Martin, They were top dollar machines, but they weld very nice. Gary H. Lucas From: martin demers Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 8:44 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions Gary, I presume they were much more expensive 25 years ago, and not available for a bigger market. Martin. > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > From: mailto:gary.lucas%40verizon.net > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 20:42:19 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > Martin, > I used to have a business partner that owned a gas supply business and he > sold and serviced welding machines. I used to do the repairs and sometimes > worked on POWCON inverter welders. This was at least 25 years ago. They > were all owned by the shipyards, where a welder you could easily carry below > decks was a big advantage. They were typically high capacity machines 400 to > 800 amps continuous duty ratings! > > Gary H. Lucas > > -----Original Message----- > From: martin demers > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 7:45 PM > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > Paul, > > is it an inverter? > if so, I didn't know they started making them that long ago. > Thermal arc is much cheaper than other popular brands(Miller, Lincoln) of > welding machine. > > martin. > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > From: mailto:pault%40sailingwithoutasound.com > Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:18:15 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > > > > Martin, > > I've had a ThermalArc 130 for 13 years now. It is in regular use and > has never given trouble. I highly recommend it based on my experience. > > Paul Thompson > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 12:55 PM, martin demers > wrote: > > > > you can get Thermal Arc 160 Amp stick welding inverter for a little more > > than $600.00 in Canada, anyone has experience with such unit. it can be > > use on both 115volts and 230 volts. > > does that seems like a good buy? > > more expensive than a $150.00 buzz box but very small and light to cary > > around. > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > From: mailto:jpronk1%40yahoo.ca > > Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:43:16 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It looks like a model that Chiry welding is building. I had a look at them > > last year and they did not look bad. > > I went with an Everlast 205P. It is a mig/stick inverter and I am very > > happy with it. I have a spool gun with it that works great for aluminium. > > It also has a pulse function that is very nice. > > If I did not need a mig welder for my work I would have bought a 200 amp > > stick inverter for $375 > > James > > > > --- On Fri, 1/6/12, David Frantz wrote: > > > > From: David Frantz > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > To: "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com" > > Cc: "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com" > > Received: Friday, January 6, 2012, 7:24 PM > > > > > > > > Very impressive. One of the two models comes in at 33 pounds. That is a > > huge amount of functionality in such a light box. > > > > As a side note I was in Harbor Freight picking up year end deals the other > > day and spent some time looking over their welder selection. It has been a > > couple of years but they seem to have shrunk their inverters even more. > > Now some of the HF weldors get no respect but in the past one model > > actually got pretty good reviews by professional weldors. I'm not up on > > theses new models but the one was smaller than a loaf of bread. > > > > Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as to > > price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both Mig and > > stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it out? Sadly I > > think you have put me into a mode where I will have to resist temptation. > > No Budget for toys this year. > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > >> If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, > >> take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php > >> > >> The company's representative was showing the equipment in our welding > >> class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) will be > >> available around summer 2012. > >> > >> Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. > >> > >> Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site. > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27401|26545|2012-01-10 22:12:04|Darren Bos|Re: Basic welding questions|I have a TSW-185. Which is the stick/Tig version. I went with Thermal Arc because it looked to be the sweet spot between price and quality. Way better quality than the Chinese E-bay or Harbour Freight units, much less expensive than Miller or Lincoln. The 185 TSW has every bell and whistle on it and seems to be very well made. I can't imagine anyone being unhappy with it unless they needed a machine with more capacity. It is nice to have the tig with the fancy settings for welding aluminum. I don't have any experience with the 160 stick version. As a disclaimer I should state that I am a hobby welder, not someone formally trained or with a lot of experience. Darren At 03:55 PM 10/01/2012, you wrote: >you can get Thermal Arc 160 Amp stick welding inverter for a little >more than $600.00 in Canada, anyone has experience with such unit. >it can be use on both 115volts and 230 volts. > does that seems like a good buy? >more expensive than a $150.00 buzz box but very small and light to >cary around. > >Martin. > > > > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >From: jpronk1@... >Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:43:16 -0800 >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > > > >It looks like a model that Chiry welding is building. I had a look >at them last year and they did not look bad. >I went with an Everlast 205P. It is a mig/stick inverter and I am >very happy with it. I have a spool gun with it that works great for >aluminium. It also has a pulse function that is very nice. >If I did not need a mig welder for my work I would have bought a 200 >amp stick inverter for $375 >James > >--- On Fri, 1/6/12, David Frantz wrote: > >From: David Frantz >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions >To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" >Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" >Received: Friday, January 6, 2012, 7:24 PM > > > >Very impressive. One of the two models comes in at 33 pounds. That >is a huge amount of functionality in such a light box. > >As a side note I was in Harbor Freight picking up year end deals the >other day and spent some time looking over their welder selection. >It has been a couple of years but they seem to have shrunk their >inverters even more. Now some of the HF weldors get no respect but >in the past one model actually got pretty good reviews by >professional weldors. I'm not up on theses new models but the one >was smaller than a loaf of bread. > >Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as >to price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both >Mig and stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it >out? Sadly I think you have put me into a mode where I will have to >resist temptation. No Budget for toys this year. > >Sent from my iPad > >On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire > feeder, take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php > > > > The company's representative was showing the equipment in our > welding class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) > will be available around summer 2012. > > > > Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. > > > > Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------------------ > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27402|27394|2012-01-12 13:43:55|wild_explorer|Re: Extreme perfectionism|I am guilty as well in trying to make some custom changes to original Brent's design (in 3D only). The funny part, that after putting my "great" ideas in 3D, looking at it for some period of time, weighting what I gain/lose from it, I am usually going back to original Brent's design ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > The sea doesn't give a rat's ass how perfect your interior joinery is. Concentrate your efforts on things which really matter. > most people I know who have wasted years and mega bucks on foolish perfectionism, have all, after a few years of cruising experience , said "I'd never do it that way again.I could have been cruising years sooner, if I had been more practical." > | 27403|27338|2012-01-12 15:06:09|GP|Re: airhead vent|I ran flexible hose pipe along side the cockpit and then through a scupper down to just above the waterline with a piece of screen over the end of the hose to prevent bugs getting in. Works fine and no odour drafts up ...seems to just get dispersed down near the water. Also I noticed in general that after birthing conservatives there was not much smell past the few "ripe" moments. I use coconut pith... comes in blocks ... under $20 package lasts me 2 years. I have had 4 people aboard for coupla weeks with this set up and all works well. ... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? > > I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. > > Anybody see a problem with that option? > | 27404|27338|2012-01-12 15:27:24|martin demers|Re: airhead vent|How long to fill the toilet when 4 people aboard? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: aguysailing@... Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:06:06 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent I ran flexible hose pipe along side the cockpit and then through a scupper down to just above the waterline with a piece of screen over the end of the hose to prevent bugs getting in. Works fine and no odour drafts up ...seems to just get dispersed down near the water. Also I noticed in general that after birthing conservatives there was not much smell past the few "ripe" moments. I use coconut pith... comes in blocks ... under $20 package lasts me 2 years. I have had 4 people aboard for coupla weeks with this set up and all works well. ... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? > > I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. > > Anybody see a problem with that option? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27405|27338|2012-01-12 16:24:29|Matt Malone|Re: airhead vent|Yes, how long to fill and, How big is this toilet tank ? And what is the purpose of the coconut pith ? And would you not want cross-flow as in, two pipes, one where air comes in, and one where air comes out ? And then, why not put one pointing forward at the front, and pointing backward at the back, and then if the wind is coming from behind, it vents at the front, and if the wind is from the front, it vents to the rear ? I assume a flow of fresh air is needed ? Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:27:22 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent > > How long to fill the toilet when 4 people aboard? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: aguysailing@... > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:06:06 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent > > > I ran flexible hose pipe along side the cockpit and then through a scupper down to just above the waterline with a piece of screen over the end of the hose to prevent bugs getting in. Works fine and no odour drafts up ...seems to just get dispersed down near the water. Also I noticed in general that after birthing conservatives there was not much smell past the few "ripe" moments. I use coconut pith... comes in blocks ... under $20 package lasts me 2 years. I have had 4 people aboard for coupla weeks with this set up and all works well. > > > > ... Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? > > > > > > I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. > > > > > > Anybody see a problem with that option? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27406|27338|2012-01-12 22:08:35|Barney Treadway|Re: airhead vent|Birthing conservatives :-) www.ecomshare.com GP wrote: >I ran flexible hose pipe along side the cockpit and then through a scupper down to just above the waterline with a piece of screen over the end of the hose to prevent bugs getting in. Works fine and no odour drafts up ...seems to just get dispersed down near the water. Also I noticed in general that after birthing conservatives there was not much smell past the few "ripe" moments. I use coconut pith... comes in blocks ... under $20 package lasts me 2 years. I have had 4 people aboard for coupla weeks with this set up and all works well. > >... Gary > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: >> >> For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? >> >> I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. >> >> Anybody see a problem with that option? >> > > | 27407|26545|2012-01-13 02:11:15|Paul Thompson|Re: Basic welding questions|Yes, it's a 130 amp dc inverter machine bought in 1999 cost just over $1 200.00. Runs on 110V or 220V they'd just come out then. I bought it because I live on my boat and needed a compact welder. It does stick and lift TIG. Paul Thompson On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 1:45 PM, martin demers wrote: > > Paul, > > is it an inverter? > if so, I didn't know they started making them that long ago. > Thermal arc is much cheaper than other popular brands(Miller, Lincoln) of welding machine. > > martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: pault@... > Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:18:15 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > > > > Martin, > > I've had a ThermalArc 130 for 13 years now. It is in regular use and > has never given trouble. I highly recommend it based on my experience. > > Paul Thompson > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 12:55 PM, martin demers wrote: >> >> you can get Thermal Arc 160 Amp stick welding inverter for a little more than $600.00 in Canada, anyone has experience with such unit. it can be use on both 115volts and 230 volts. >>  does that seems like a good buy? >> more expensive than a $150.00 buzz box but very small and light  to cary around. >> >> Martin. >> >> >> >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: jpronk1@... >> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:43:16 -0800 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It looks like a model that Chiry welding is building. I had a look at them last year and they did not look bad. >> I went with an Everlast 205P. It is a mig/stick inverter and I am very happy with it. I have a spool gun with it that works great for aluminium. It also has a pulse function that is very nice. >> If I did not need a mig welder for my work I would have bought a 200 amp stick inverter for $375 >> James >> >> --- On Fri, 1/6/12, David Frantz wrote: >> >> From: David Frantz >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions >> To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" >> Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" >> Received: Friday, January 6, 2012, 7:24 PM >> >> >> >> Very impressive. One of the two models comes in at 33 pounds. That is a huge amount of functionality in such a light box. >> >> As a side note I was in Harbor Freight picking up year end deals the other day and spent some time looking over their welder selection. It has been a couple of years but they seem to have shrunk their inverters even more. Now some of the HF weldors get no respect but in the past one model actually got pretty good reviews by professional weldors. I'm not up on theses new models but the one was smaller than a loaf of bread. >> >> Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as to price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both Mig and stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it out? Sadly I think you have put me into a mode where I will have to resist temptation. No Budget for toys this year. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: >> >>> If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php >>> >>> The company's representative was showing the equipment in our welding class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) will be available around summer 2012. >>> >>> Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. >>> >>> Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 27408|26545|2012-01-13 12:02:47|martin demers|Re: Basic welding questions|Paul, How do you get your electricity for your welding machine? For my part, I wanted to install a generator on my inboard diesel ... NOt done yet Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pault@... Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:11:12 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions Yes, it's a 130 amp dc inverter machine bought in 1999 cost just over $1 200.00. Runs on 110V or 220V they'd just come out then. I bought it because I live on my boat and needed a compact welder. It does stick and lift TIG. Paul Thompson On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 1:45 PM, martin demers wrote: > > Paul, > > is it an inverter? > if so, I didn't know they started making them that long ago. > Thermal arc is much cheaper than other popular brands(Miller, Lincoln) of welding machine. > > martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: pault@... > Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:18:15 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > > > > Martin, > > I've had a ThermalArc 130 for 13 years now. It is in regular use and > has never given trouble. I highly recommend it based on my experience. > > Paul Thompson > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 12:55 PM, martin demers wrote: >> >> you can get Thermal Arc 160 Amp stick welding inverter for a little more than $600.00 in Canada, anyone has experience with such unit. it can be use on both 115volts and 230 volts. >> does that seems like a good buy? >> more expensive than a $150.00 buzz box but very small and light to cary around. >> >> Martin. >> >> >> >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: jpronk1@... >> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:43:16 -0800 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It looks like a model that Chiry welding is building. I had a look at them last year and they did not look bad. >> I went with an Everlast 205P. It is a mig/stick inverter and I am very happy with it. I have a spool gun with it that works great for aluminium. It also has a pulse function that is very nice. >> If I did not need a mig welder for my work I would have bought a 200 amp stick inverter for $375 >> James >> >> --- On Fri, 1/6/12, David Frantz wrote: >> >> From: David Frantz >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions >> To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" >> Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" >> Received: Friday, January 6, 2012, 7:24 PM >> >> >> >> Very impressive. One of the two models comes in at 33 pounds. That is a huge amount of functionality in such a light box. >> >> As a side note I was in Harbor Freight picking up year end deals the other day and spent some time looking over their welder selection. It has been a couple of years but they seem to have shrunk their inverters even more. Now some of the HF weldors get no respect but in the past one model actually got pretty good reviews by professional weldors. I'm not up on theses new models but the one was smaller than a loaf of bread. >> >> Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as to price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both Mig and stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it out? Sadly I think you have put me into a mode where I will have to resist temptation. No Budget for toys this year. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: >> >>> If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php >>> >>> The company's representative was showing the equipment in our welding class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) will be available around summer 2012. >>> >>> Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. >>> >>> Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27409|26545|2012-01-13 15:06:15|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions|Just install a 100 amp alternator on your diesel and use that for running your power tools, welding and extra charging. Does the same job as a generator, for $35 at the Auto wreckers. Much simpler and cheaper. Disposable if anything goes wrong with it. Carry a spare alternator, another $35. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Paul, > > How do you get your electricity for your welding machine? > For my part, I wanted to install a generator on my inboard diesel ... NOt done yet > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: pault@... > Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:11:12 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it's a 130 amp dc inverter machine bought in 1999 cost just over > > $1 200.00. Runs on 110V or 220V they'd just come out then. I bought it > > because I live on my boat and needed a compact welder. It does stick > > and lift TIG. > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 1:45 PM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > Paul, > > > > > > is it an inverter? > > > if so, I didn't know they started making them that long ago. > > > Thermal arc is much cheaper than other popular brands(Miller, Lincoln) of welding machine. > > > > > > martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: pault@... > > > Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:18:15 +1300 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, > > > > > > I've had a ThermalArc 130 for 13 years now. It is in regular use and > > > has never given trouble. I highly recommend it based on my experience. > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 12:55 PM, martin demers wrote: > > >> > > >> you can get Thermal Arc 160 Amp stick welding inverter for a little more than $600.00 in Canada, anyone has experience with such unit. it can be use on both 115volts and 230 volts. > > >> does that seems like a good buy? > > >> more expensive than a $150.00 buzz box but very small and light to cary around. > > >> > > >> Martin. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> From: jpronk1@... > > >> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:43:16 -0800 > > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> It looks like a model that Chiry welding is building. I had a look at them last year and they did not look bad. > > >> I went with an Everlast 205P. It is a mig/stick inverter and I am very happy with it. I have a spool gun with it that works great for aluminium. It also has a pulse function that is very nice. > > >> If I did not need a mig welder for my work I would have bought a 200 amp stick inverter for $375 > > >> James > > >> > > >> --- On Fri, 1/6/12, David Frantz wrote: > > >> > > >> From: David Frantz > > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > >> To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > >> Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > >> Received: Friday, January 6, 2012, 7:24 PM > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Very impressive. One of the two models comes in at 33 pounds. That is a huge amount of functionality in such a light box. > > >> > > >> As a side note I was in Harbor Freight picking up year end deals the other day and spent some time looking over their welder selection. It has been a couple of years but they seem to have shrunk their inverters even more. Now some of the HF weldors get no respect but in the past one model actually got pretty good reviews by professional weldors. I'm not up on theses new models but the one was smaller than a loaf of bread. > > >> > > >> Enough of that digression, did the Thermadyne rep give any hints as to price? It would be extremely nice to have a welder that did both Mig and stick well. To that end did anyone get a chance to try it out? Sadly I think you have put me into a mode where I will have to resist temptation. No Budget for toys this year. > > >> > > >> Sent from my iPad > > >> > > >> On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > >> > > >>> If you are looking for multipurpose welder with built in wire feeder, take a look at http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/index.php > > >>> > > >>> The company's representative was showing the equipment in our welding class. He said that 110V version (not universal 110/240v) will be available around summer 2012. > > >>> > > >>> Note: it dose NOT have plasma cutter. > > >>> > > >>> Specifications are in media&downloads tab on that web-site. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ------------------------------------ > > >>> > > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------ > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27410|27338|2012-01-13 15:10:48|brentswain38|Re: airhead vent|With only me aboard , I have gone 6 weeks in summer, far less in winter, about a week. Divide that by 4 for 4 people aboard . The natures head uses a square solids container ( conservative nursery ) for more capacity. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > How long to fill the toilet when 4 people aboard? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: aguysailing@... > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:06:06 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I ran flexible hose pipe along side the cockpit and then through a scupper down to just above the waterline with a piece of screen over the end of the hose to prevent bugs getting in. Works fine and no odour drafts up ...seems to just get dispersed down near the water. Also I noticed in general that after birthing conservatives there was not much smell past the few "ripe" moments. I use coconut pith... comes in blocks ... under $20 package lasts me 2 years. I have had 4 people aboard for coupla weeks with this set up and all works well. > > > > ... Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? > > > > > > I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. > > > > > > Anybody see a problem with that option? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27411|27338|2012-01-13 15:13:31|brentswain38|Re: airhead vent|I have found the decayed forest liter you find under old mossy logs works just as well as coconut fibre or peat moss, and is free everywhere.I put it in a cloth bag above my wood stove for a few days in winter, to dry. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With only me aboard , I have gone 6 weeks in summer, far less in winter, about a week. Divide that by 4 for 4 people aboard . The natures head uses a square solids container ( conservative nursery ) for more capacity. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > How long to fill the toilet when 4 people aboard? > > > > Martin > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: aguysailing@ > > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:06:06 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I ran flexible hose pipe along side the cockpit and then through a scupper down to just above the waterline with a piece of screen over the end of the hose to prevent bugs getting in. Works fine and no odour drafts up ...seems to just get dispersed down near the water. Also I noticed in general that after birthing conservatives there was not much smell past the few "ripe" moments. I use coconut pith... comes in blocks ... under $20 package lasts me 2 years. I have had 4 people aboard for coupla weeks with this set up and all works well. > > > > > > > > ... Gary > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. > > > > > > > > > > Anybody see a problem with that option? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 27412|27338|2012-01-13 15:14:31|brentswain38|Re: airhead vent|The fishing industry has square five gallon buckets for herring . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With only me aboard , I have gone 6 weeks in summer, far less in winter, about a week. Divide that by 4 for 4 people aboard . The natures head uses a square solids container ( conservative nursery ) for more capacity. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > How long to fill the toilet when 4 people aboard? > > > > Martin > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: aguysailing@ > > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:06:06 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I ran flexible hose pipe along side the cockpit and then through a scupper down to just above the waterline with a piece of screen over the end of the hose to prevent bugs getting in. Works fine and no odour drafts up ...seems to just get dispersed down near the water. Also I noticed in general that after birthing conservatives there was not much smell past the few "ripe" moments. I use coconut pith... comes in blocks ... under $20 package lasts me 2 years. I have had 4 people aboard for coupla weeks with this set up and all works well. > > > > > > > > ... Gary > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. > > > > > > > > > > Anybody see a problem with that option? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 27413|27413|2012-01-13 15:19:30|brentswain38|Solar Candles|I just found some great solar lights at Home Hardware. They are about the size of a hockey puck and come with three LEDs on one side and a solar panel with a suction cup on the other, or a caribiner clip. You stick them in your window and 3 hours of sun gives you one hour of light. $15 each. You could put several in, and when one quits, simply turn the next one on. Reduces reliance on the electrical system. not as bright as the 12 volt system , but close enough, it is enough light to read by.| 27414|27413|2012-01-14 12:53:59|mkriley48|Re: Solar Candles|Any chance you have a manufacturer and a model number for us in the states, Could not find it on the home Hardware site? mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just found some great solar lights at Home Hardware. They are about the size of a hockey puck and come with three LEDs on one side and a solar panel with a suction cup on the other, or a caribiner clip. You stick them in your window and 3 hours of sun gives you one hour of light. $15 each. You could put several in, and when one quits, simply turn the next one on. Reduces reliance on the electrical system. not as bright as the 12 volt system , but close enough, it is enough light to read by. > | 27415|27413|2012-01-14 16:19:55|brentswain38|Re: Solar Candles|Made in China for Sylvania. Not as bright as I had hoped, but maybe they just need a fuler charge --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > Any chance you have a manufacturer and a model number for us in the states, Could not find it on the home Hardware site? > mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I just found some great solar lights at Home Hardware. They are about the size of a hockey puck and come with three LEDs on one side and a solar panel with a suction cup on the other, or a caribiner clip. You stick them in your window and 3 hours of sun gives you one hour of light. $15 each. You could put several in, and when one quits, simply turn the next one on. Reduces reliance on the electrical system. not as bright as the 12 volt system , but close enough, it is enough light to read by. > > > | 27416|27338|2012-01-16 00:03:57|scott|Re: airhead vent|For two adults using a natures head unit full-time, the urine tank needs to be changed every two to three days and the composting bin every 4 to 6 weeks. I think if 4 people were going to be permanent I would have two of the natures heads if the boat was bigger or better yet build a custom composting unit with about 3 times the capacity of the natures head. when we empty the unit we will fill a standard tall kitchen trash bag about 1/4 full. Maybe 3 gallons? It will just be a loamy/dirty/soil with a dirt odour.. However if you have diahrea the extra liquid can overwhelm the unit and odours can get worse. You want to throw some extra coir/peat moss etc.. in over it to help dry it out quicker. I was impressed with how fast the unit did catch up a day or so in that situation though. We throughly like our natures head.. After almost 2 years of years of using it part time and full time for spurts the boat and head smell much better than any boat I have ever been on that just has a standard marine head/holding tank setup A little more work needed to use it and virtually zero annual maintenance. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Yes, how long to fill and, How big is this toilet tank ? And what is the purpose of the > coconut pith ? And would you not want cross-flow as in, two pipes, one where air > comes in, and one where air comes out ? And then, why not put one pointing forward > at the front, and pointing backward at the back, and then if the wind is coming from > behind, it vents at the front, and if the wind is from the front, it vents to the rear ? > I assume a flow of fresh air is needed ? > > Matt > | 27417|27338|2012-01-16 07:29:00|Matt Malone|Re: airhead vent|Dividing by the number of people to find a shorter fill lifetime does not work. For a given size of composter, and rate of airflow, it digests at a given rate. For a large enough composter, for one person, it will digest as fast as it is filled. Adding three people means, it will not be able to keep up and will fill. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:10:45 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent With only me aboard , I have gone 6 weeks in summer, far less in winter, about a week. Divide that by 4 for 4 people aboard . The natures head uses a square solids container ( conservative nursery ) for more capacity. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > How long to fill the toilet when 4 people aboard? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: aguysailing@... > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:06:06 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I ran flexible hose pipe along side the cockpit and then through a scupper down to just above the waterline with a piece of screen over the end of the hose to prevent bugs getting in. Works fine and no odour drafts up ...seems to just get dispersed down near the water. Also I noticed in general that after birthing conservatives there was not much smell past the few "ripe" moments. I use coconut pith... comes in blocks ... under $20 package lasts me 2 years. I have had 4 people aboard for coupla weeks with this set up and all works well. > > > > ... Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? > > > > > > I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. > > > > > > Anybody see a problem with that option? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27418|27338|2012-01-16 09:26:59|Matt Malone|Re: airhead vent|Great idea. There is a good chance that forest litter is full of soil bacteria and nematodes, which will also help speed up the composting. If one is not too meticulous about cleaning out the compost between parliaments, it will carry the organisms on for the next load. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:13:30 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent I have found the decayed forest liter you find under old mossy logs works just as well as coconut fibre or peat moss, and is free everywhere.I put it in a cloth bag above my wood stove for a few days in winter, to dry. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With only me aboard , I have gone 6 weeks in summer, far less in winter, about a week. Divide that by 4 for 4 people aboard . The natures head uses a square solids container ( conservative nursery ) for more capacity. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > How long to fill the toilet when 4 people aboard? > > > > Martin > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: aguysailing@ > > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:06:06 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I ran flexible hose pipe along side the cockpit and then through a scupper down to just above the waterline with a piece of screen over the end of the hose to prevent bugs getting in. Works fine and no odour drafts up ...seems to just get dispersed down near the water. Also I noticed in general that after birthing conservatives there was not much smell past the few "ripe" moments. I use coconut pith... comes in blocks ... under $20 package lasts me 2 years. I have had 4 people aboard for coupla weeks with this set up and all works well. > > > > > > > > ... Gary > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. > > > > > > > > > > Anybody see a problem with that option? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27419|27419|2012-01-18 19:13:44|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|Swain origami rig variety|Is there any Swain boat with some rig different than Bermudian? Martin| 27420|27419|2012-01-19 12:34:45|jason ball|Re: Swain origami rig variety|eclectus has a bermudan rig, but it is a cutter rather than sloop... --- On Thu, 19/1/12, mdemers2005@... wrote: From: mdemers2005@... Subject: [origamiboats] Swain origami rig variety To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 19 January, 2012, 0:13   Is there any Swain boat with some rig different than Bermudian? Martin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27421|27419|2012-01-19 12:50:18|martin demers|Re: Swain origami rig variety|Is it in the photo album! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: balljaseball@... Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:34:43 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Swain origami rig variety eclectus has a bermudan rig, but it is a cutter rather than sloop... --- On Thu, 19/1/12, mdemers2005@... wrote: From: mdemers2005@... Subject: [origamiboats] Swain origami rig variety To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 19 January, 2012, 0:13 Is there any Swain boat with some rig different than Bermudian? Martin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27422|27419|2012-01-19 13:04:57|Paul Wilson|Re: Swain origami rig variety|I think they are all sloop/cutters (slutters) but with a removable inner forestay. By moving the inner forestay aside, there is no interference when using the anchor winch. I was told that by having a sloop (mast farther forward than cutter) there is still good slot effect and drive from the rig when not using the staysail. Makes sense to me. My 36 is rigged this way and I wouldn't do anything different although there are some people keen on junk rigs.... Cheers, Paul On 20/01/2012 6:50 a.m., martin demers wrote: > Is it in the photo album! > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: balljaseball@... > Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:34:43 +0000 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Swain origami rig variety > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eclectus has a bermudan rig, but it is a cutter rather than sloop... > > > > --- On Thu, 19/1/12, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > Subject: [origamiboats] Swain origami rig variety > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, 19 January, 2012, 0:13 > > > > > > > > Is there any Swain boat with some rig different than Bermudian? > > > > Martin > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 27423|27419|2012-01-19 16:23:08|brentswain38|Re: Swain origami rig variety|All are sloops with removable inner forestay for a staysail, altho one 31 was recently launched with a junk rig ( not my idea). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Is there any Swain boat with some rig different than Bermudian? > > Martin > | 27424|27424|2012-01-20 02:55:20|Kim|An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Hi Brent and everyone ... Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: ADVANTAGES ---------- * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). * Maybe easier fishing? * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. * Incomparable cockpit drainage! DISADVANTAGES ------------- * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. Many thanks! Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht| 27425|27424|2012-01-20 03:46:58|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|As long as I worked in boat building (10 yrs) we "closed" about 1 to 2 open transoms a year. All the customers with this issue said the same in one point: sailing offshore on a real ocean, You don't want to keep this raceboat's rear end any more, cause even in only moderate wind and seas You just don't feel save, the feeling of sitting upon an open raft is not enough "shippy" when conditions deteriorate. One person said it was more like flushing through the atlantic instead of sailing on top of it. I once helped transferring an "Open 60" racehog, and I felt alike while crossing the Gulf of Lyon in a following Maestrale (with only some miles to shoreline or the islands but no sighting for rain reasons). Might be just a psycho-thing, though. And this one: "...* Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board)..." Despite what maneuver trainers usually drill You with, reboarding/retrieving lost crew is not supposed to become regular part of daily routine aboard, not even for singlehanders, so I'd recommend rather investing some thoughts and measurements to prevent falling over board. Cheers G_B Am 20.01.2012 um 08:55 schrieb Kim: > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: > > ADVANTAGES > ---------- > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > DISADVANTAGES > ------------- > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > Many thanks! > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27426|27424|2012-01-20 07:50:46|Matt Malone|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Kim, The distortion may be an indication of how stiff the rear transom of the boat currently is. This seems like a good thing. All Brent's tales of extreme situations a Swain has withstood, seem to depend on that closed stiffness. Opening the back would seem to take away from its ability to bounce on reefs for instance. Also, the inside corners of an open C are harder to make strong -- look at a C-clamp, where do they fail ? Everything Giuseppe Bergman said sounds like my first thoughts on this. The open transom looks to my like a trend, and not a practical one. It looks like something more popular on planing hull boats, so one can more easily see the water just as it leaves the aft of the boat. I imagine it provides more of a feeling of speed, like driving a car that is shorter, or riding a motorcycle where you can see the ground go by closer in your peripheral vision. The same speed feels faster. Take a look at the Oyster 575: http://www.boats.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/oyster-575-3436.jpg It has an "open" transom style cockpit, but the cockpit floor is so raised off the water as to make the structural transom closed. This seems safer and stronger to me. One could do that, raise the floor of the cockpit without raising the transom to get the same open-back effect. The cockpit would drain well.... draining away everything smaller than a beachball and lighter than a bowling ball.... everything like tools, hand-helds, plates, utensiles, recently-dropped nuts bolts and other hardware... I like the low inside corners in my cockpit. They seem to say to me, second chance to grab stuff before it leaves. Also look at the scoop volume of the cockpit on the Oyster 575 -- small compared to the flotation of the boat so if you are swamped, it does not change the weight of the boat a lot. Here is an Open 60: http://www.mo-go.com/Image_Other/images/Open-60_jpg.jpg At the rear, the transom is cut out, but only to make a sort of open-back well. The cockpit itself is small and closed, with little volume compared to the flotation of the boat. Open 60s are considered some of the safest of experimental boats. I do not know if I ran into the Ming-Ming project reading here or somewhere else, but, the first thing this guy does is reduce the cockpit volume along with other things to make a safer, more ocean-worthy boat. http://www.thesimplesailor.com/Mingming.html Your photos showing the no-transom boats, had large scoop-volumes for their cockpit, and no protection from following seas. The first thing that came to my mind was unsafe, how fast one could be waist deep in water, and how much water that would be, and all the lost stuff. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kimdxx@... Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:55:17 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Hi Brent and everyone ... Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: ADVANTAGES ---------- * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). * Maybe easier fishing? * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. * Incomparable cockpit drainage! DISADVANTAGES ------------- * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. Many thanks! Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27427|27424|2012-01-20 08:23:05|martin demers|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|I was also thinking to make modifications to my cockpit by raising it 4 to 5. inches , I see many advantages like it was just said before by letting less water volume and also adding interior space wich is the point that interest me. Some plans dont even have a cockpit but this is too radical for me. Any negative point? Would it raise center of gravity too much.? Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:50:45 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > Kim, > > The distortion may be an indication of how stiff the rear transom of the boat currently > is. This seems like a good thing. All Brent's tales of extreme situations a Swain > has withstood, seem to depend on that closed stiffness. Opening the back would seem > to take away from its ability to bounce on reefs for instance. Also, the inside corners of > an open C are harder to make strong -- look at a C-clamp, where do they fail ? > > Everything Giuseppe Bergman said sounds like my first thoughts on this. The open > transom looks to my like a trend, and not a practical one. It looks like something > more popular on planing hull boats, so one can more easily see the water just as it > leaves the aft of the boat. I imagine it provides more of a feeling of speed, like driving > a car that is shorter, or riding a motorcycle where you can see the ground go by closer > in your peripheral vision. The same speed feels faster. Take a look at the Oyster 575: > > http://www.boats.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/oyster-575-3436.jpg > > It has an "open" transom style cockpit, but the cockpit floor is so raised off the water as to make > the structural transom closed. This seems safer and stronger to me. One could do that, > raise the floor of the cockpit without raising the transom to get the same open-back effect. > The cockpit would drain well.... draining away everything smaller than a beachball and > lighter than a bowling ball.... everything like tools, hand-helds, plates, utensiles, > recently-dropped nuts bolts and other hardware... I like the low inside corners in my cockpit. > They seem to say to me, second chance to grab stuff before it leaves. > > Also look at the scoop volume of the cockpit on the Oyster 575 -- small compared to the > flotation of the boat so if you are swamped, it does not change the weight of the boat a > lot. Here is an Open 60: > > http://www.mo-go.com/Image_Other/images/Open-60_jpg.jpg > > At the rear, the transom is cut out, but only to make a sort of open-back well. The cockpit > itself is small and closed, with little volume compared to the flotation of the boat. > Open 60s are considered some of the safest of experimental boats. > > I do not know if I ran into the Ming-Ming project reading here or somewhere else, but, > the first thing this guy does is reduce the cockpit volume along with other things to > make a safer, more ocean-worthy boat. > > http://www.thesimplesailor.com/Mingming.html > > Your photos showing the no-transom boats, had large scoop-volumes for their cockpit, > and no protection from following seas. The first thing that came to my mind was > unsafe, how fast one could be waist deep in water, and how much water that would be, > and all the lost stuff. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:55:17 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: > > > > ADVANTAGES > > ---------- > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > ------------- > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > Many thanks! > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27428|27424|2012-01-20 08:59:06|Norm Moore|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens unfinished manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and safer. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: Kim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Hi Brent and everyone ... Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: ADVANTAGES ---------- * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). * Maybe easier fishing? * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. * Incomparable cockpit drainage! DISADVANTAGES ------------- * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. Many thanks! Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27429|27424|2012-01-20 09:14:04|Matt Malone|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|The reason I might raise the cockpit floor is to gain exterior-accessible, but sealed storage, somewhere I can throw big wet things. My 23 has a huge cockpit locker, unfortunately, it is "inside" the boat, so, it has all the disadvantages of a second large opening into the hull, that can't be used as an exit, not as useful. I am looking at my 41, and looking at the deeply sunk cockpit floor, thinking of adding a raised floor to make an exterior-accessible storage that is not part of the inside of the boat. I would leave the current cockpit drains in place to keep the storage dry. Upright tenderness stability is affected by the weight times its distance from the center of mass. If you are moving it only 4-5 inches, that is a small change on a small distance. It would be more mathematical volume inside, but would it be noticeable, usable additional volume ? It would be some mass -- if Kim left the current cockpit in, and put in a new cockpit floor, and then maybe seats and rails to make the higher cockpit -- but that is still not very high. Consider what one might put on top of the mast head, and trade off mass times distance. In non-vertical stability, as in, wet cockpit, the added dry volume higher is helping the rolling moment to put one back vertical. One could have a cockpit with sides made of multiple levels of sturdy rails and open-under benches, like park benches. Lots of space to chuck stuff and tie it off in nice weather. It presents a clean deck-like area when the stuff is stowed in not so good weather. It is also far less or no water volume if swamped by a wave, it would be gone as fast as it came. One would definitely be more "out there". A wash of water could easily wash clear through the cockpit in a straight line without slowing down. It might slam you to a rail, and hold you there very forcefully, whereas, the water can't flow through a sunken cockpit as fast, it has to flow around like a sloshing bathtub. Norm Moore has cited a book written based on experience. What could be better ? Stephens argues against a deep cockpit, but, on a quick skim, seems to consider only enclosed cockpits with some depth. It would be interesting to hear what Stephens and/or Rhodes might say about the modern cockpit designs, if they saw them. That is one of the reasons I am reluctant to modify my cockpit -- Rhodes knew a lot more than me about what worked well. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mdemers2005@... Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:23:04 -0500 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? I was also thinking to make modifications to my cockpit by raising it 4 to 5. inches , I see many advantages like it was just said before by letting less water volume and also adding interior space wich is the point that interest me. Some plans dont even have a cockpit but this is too radical for me. Any negative point? Would it raise center of gravity too much.? Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:50:45 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > Kim, > > The distortion may be an indication of how stiff the rear transom of the boat currently > is. This seems like a good thing. All Brent's tales of extreme situations a Swain > has withstood, seem to depend on that closed stiffness. Opening the back would seem > to take away from its ability to bounce on reefs for instance. Also, the inside corners of > an open C are harder to make strong -- look at a C-clamp, where do they fail ? > > Everything Giuseppe Bergman said sounds like my first thoughts on this. The open > transom looks to my like a trend, and not a practical one. It looks like something > more popular on planing hull boats, so one can more easily see the water just as it > leaves the aft of the boat. I imagine it provides more of a feeling of speed, like driving > a car that is shorter, or riding a motorcycle where you can see the ground go by closer > in your peripheral vision. The same speed feels faster. Take a look at the Oyster 575: > > http://www.boats.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/oyster-575-3436.jpg > > It has an "open" transom style cockpit, but the cockpit floor is so raised off the water as to make > the structural transom closed. This seems safer and stronger to me. One could do that, > raise the floor of the cockpit without raising the transom to get the same open-back effect. > The cockpit would drain well.... draining away everything smaller than a beachball and > lighter than a bowling ball.... everything like tools, hand-helds, plates, utensiles, > recently-dropped nuts bolts and other hardware... I like the low inside corners in my cockpit. > They seem to say to me, second chance to grab stuff before it leaves. > > Also look at the scoop volume of the cockpit on the Oyster 575 -- small compared to the > flotation of the boat so if you are swamped, it does not change the weight of the boat a > lot. Here is an Open 60: > > http://www.mo-go.com/Image_Other/images/Open-60_jpg.jpg > > At the rear, the transom is cut out, but only to make a sort of open-back well. The cockpit > itself is small and closed, with little volume compared to the flotation of the boat. > Open 60s are considered some of the safest of experimental boats. > > I do not know if I ran into the Ming-Ming project reading here or somewhere else, but, > the first thing this guy does is reduce the cockpit volume along with other things to > make a safer, more ocean-worthy boat. > > http://www.thesimplesailor.com/Mingming.html > > Your photos showing the no-transom boats, had large scoop-volumes for their cockpit, > and no protection from following seas. The first thing that came to my mind was > unsafe, how fast one could be waist deep in water, and how much water that would be, > and all the lost stuff. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:55:17 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: > > > > ADVANTAGES > > ---------- > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > ------------- > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > Many thanks! > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27430|27430|2012-01-20 09:58:57|westotters|new tug build- by plans form Mal Low 27 ft x 10 ft tug|Hi Doug Jackson(and Wife!) @ submarineboat.com - it looks like i already had an account--i looked at this method a couple years ago. for a tug which has a counter stern--this method wasnt viable if in a v hull - but my project has a flat bottom and i would say this build has got to be the easiest build in origami ever created--think of a flat bottomed barge- curve the hull so there is rocker to it(in one plane only -no compound curvature), add a model bow and two huge directional skegs so the tug can be beached and there you have it-- the build: two flat panels- one bottom and one topsides)deck) then you have the two sides with a whopping total of 162 sq ft, add bulwarks and wheelhouse in commercial rough as guts style - and there you have it--it would be like building a standard barge with a bit more complexity, but man!!, its just weld the sides together- weld the bottom and top- add some stiffening, motor mounts a couple bulkheads etc and its ready to go--in fact my quesiton is: since there is less weight from frames, will i be able to use larger plate?? I know i need to account for the extra weight in displacement but the tug is 27 ft. anyone here two years ago would have seen my drawings of a tug boat i designed--but i this is even better... its a Mal low designer "porker" with a few mods such as eliminating bilge keels and adding two logitudinal skegs that support the vessel when beached...| 27431|27430|2012-01-20 10:14:42|Doug Jackson|Re: new tug build- by plans form Mal Low 27 ft x 10 ft tug|Greetings Doug  (It's Doug right?) Post the drawings if you can. There are folks here that will know better but a bottom without a compound curve would have more flex, so you might need some framing.    Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: westotters To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 8:58 AM Subject: [origamiboats] new tug build- by plans form Mal Low 27 ft x 10 ft tug   Hi Doug Jackson(and Wife!) @ submarineboat.com - it looks like i already had an account--i looked at this method a couple years ago. for a tug which has a counter stern--this method wasnt viable if in a v hull - but my project has a flat bottom and i would say this build has got to be the easiest build in origami ever created--think of a flat bottomed barge- curve the hull so there is rocker to it(in one plane only -no compound curvature), add a model bow and two huge directional skegs so the tug can be beached and there you have it-- the build: two flat panels- one bottom and one topsides)deck) then you have the two sides with a whopping total of 162 sq ft, add bulwarks and wheelhouse in commercial rough as guts style - and there you have it--it would be like building a standard barge with a bit more complexity, but man!!, its just weld the sides together- weld the bottom and top- add some stiffening, motor mounts a couple bulkheads etc and its ready to go--in fact my quesiton is: since there is less weight from frames, will i be able to use larger plate?? I know i need to account for the extra weight in displacement but the tug is 27 ft. anyone here two years ago would have seen my drawings of a tug boat i designed--but i this is even better... its a Mal low designer "porker" with a few mods such as eliminating bilge keels and adding two logitudinal skegs that support the vessel when beached... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27432|27430|2012-01-20 10:28:42|westotters|Re: new tug build- by plans form Mal Low 27 ft x 10 ft tug|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Greetings Doug  (It's Doug right?) > > Post the drawings if you can. There are folks here that will know better but a bottom without a compound curve would have more flex, so you might need some framing.  >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com Yes its Doug also--we will have to differentiate between the two of us when the name Doug is used... Thanks--i pans on using heavy bottom stiffening running longitudinally, to prevent flex and oil-canning etc. but im open to any suggestions.. how goes your build--i watched your vids onj the models last night and wow--you have to do 6 or was it 7?? also the plate -getting it to be perfectly flat!!--will my build need to have this type of butt joining??if the plate is welded to sdtringers would it prevent muct distortion? the origami build is based on getting the steel "on the Margin" otherwise i have to build it much more slowly i.e. welding up 7 pieces of 4x8 for the bottom. then cutting the shape out, same for the sides and deck--but i am working with a steel company to see about them cnc'ing it for me..this will make th build quitye fast-im hoping by summers end or mid summerthe hull only will be launch ready--then ill fit her out on the water...| 27433|27433|2012-01-20 12:36:32|westotters|wheelhouse revision|decided to see what the wheelhoue would look liek moved forward..i like it! any comments -? compare to my latest uploads where the wheelhouse is set back 1.5 ft. off the main deck...| 27434|27430|2012-01-20 13:14:20|Matt Malone|Open 60-like Planing Orgami Hull ?|I have looked at the orgami sequence pictures that Kim and others have posted. I keep looking at them and thinking, if the edges of the plate were trimmed a little differently, and instead of welding together what are the centerline edges, one welded together what are the gunwale edges on the traditional Swain, one would get something roughly similar to an Open 60 hull shape. The darts or cuts would be a little forward of where the forward person is sitting on the rail in the photo below: http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/Photo_04.jpg In refining the shape, more than one cut would be better. Since each cut would be smaller, it would be easier to join and shape the hull. One is not going to get exactly the Open 60 hull form: http://www.journal.sailboat-technology.com/articles/2010-01/2010-01_files/image018.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1CDZ7Ya8Ni0/R23uMTXh3OI/AAAAAAAACPY/oi-s5eRCBhs/s400/AOR%2520II%2520-%25201.jpg But look how sharp the 'chine' is between the topsides and the bilge at the location of the forward strap on the second photo. Now to provide more ultimate stability than fixed- keel Open boat (they use canting keels now), one needs a high coach roof. A high coach roof (like +3 feet higher than an Open 60) would provide lots of inside area, over a flatter floor. Some tumblehome would be good to help ultimate stability too -- the orgami hull would stop part way up the topsides, and what would appear to be the rest of the topsides with tumblehome is actually the coach roof structure. The top of the boat might look a little like a beetle's back but with slightly flatter lateral areas to each side of the centerline, each inclined down toward the water at about the same angle as the typical heel angle of the boat when under sail -- so, the windward side of the deck would be close to flat when the boat is heeled. Hydrodynamic shaped struts would angle out from the deck and up from the point of maximum beam, to allow for a reasonable stance between the shrouds to keep shroud tension comparable to a flat-deck, no tumblehome boat. The area under this deck/coach roof would provide a wide area with plenty of headroom and almost cat-like open areas in the central salon. The cockpit would be a pocket at the top, middle of the arch (mid-cockpit) with a central companionway and walk-through layout of some sort. The engine could be under the cockpit -- all sides with removeable panels for access. Imagine sitting on a milk crate to work on the engine. I saw another design where the engine was under the salon table -- the table top and 4 insulated panels came off and the engine was in the center of the salon with room for two men to pass at once on all sides. Such a boat would also need a deep keel when sailing. I was thinking of a vertically retractable keel enclosed in a trunk through the boat. With removal of the boom to one side, the idea would be, a hatch comes off the deck, the stem of the keel comes up out of the deck, and the keel bulb comes right up against the bottom of the hull for launch, beaching. (The keel bulb would be a flatten lozenge shape make this better.) A flat deck trailer or fork lift could move the boat. it might be launchable and haulable without a crane. One of the requirements would be that, with the keel retracted to provide less than 5' of draft, it would not interfere with the boom, allowing sailing access to nice holes and lagoons in the Caribean. Using this as a starting point, one could make the stem for the keel 5' + the boom clearance over the cabin top, plus the head room under the cabin top --- there is the potential to have 14' of draft at full drop on one-piece keel of simple design. One could either reduce the weight of the ballast relative to a displacing hull, reducing displacement and making it easier to plane, or, have same mass -- with its lower mounting, one could carry a bigger rig. I was talking with a racing sailor and their open-ocean boat is 21' long, 2000 pounds and can hit 22 knots on a plane. That boat is cored composite, imagine the durability of steel. 40 feet would be nice, with 12' of beam and near-standing headroom right to the rear transom. That is a lot of space. The flatter bottom would need to be thicker, or have more reinforcement built in to keep the same over-all geometrical stiffness. Since the hull is not going all the way up the top-sides, a much thicker plate might be used for the same sized boat without adding much to above-cg weight, which reduces stability. There would not be a central bilge, to gather interior water, a downside. One would have to use angling dams to move and concentrate sloshing water to one area for pumping. It would have a lot of motion in waves, and might be quite uncomfortable when not surfing. When surfing, it would be a pounding ride. But it would be fast, easy to build in an orgami, and have lots of room closer to the floor. If one sought out some weather for transits, and nice harbours, or closed lagoons or rivers when stopped, it might spend half the time en-route compared to a more traditional displacing hull. It would provide more below-deck foot-room too and cat-like comforts when stopped. A bit of a frankenstein, but, Thoughts ? Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27435|27424|2012-01-20 13:16:07|martin demers|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Interesting reading, I already had a look at it before but not the cockpit section Good advices To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: normmoore@... Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens unfinished manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and safer. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: Kim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Hi Brent and everyone ... Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: ADVANTAGES ---------- * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). * Maybe easier fishing? * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. * Incomparable cockpit drainage! DISADVANTAGES ------------- * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. Many thanks! Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27436|27424|2012-01-20 13:46:33|wild_explorer|Cockpit arrangement (was Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on |I recently was looking for some possible changes to a cockpit as well. Some ideas just will not work on a boat less than 60 ft (my 3D model is about 38-39). What I like about Brent's cockpit: - very simple - safe - easy to get on the deck. 1 step up from footwell and you are there. - deck as a bench (it curved and allow you to sit comfortably without sliding into a cockpit when boat heeled) - no bench back-rest /cockpit-wings to step over, or will reduce main hatch's openings. - footwell has large drainage openings - original design allows to see over pilothouse top when sitting. - the length of cockpit can be reduced by making watertight removable aft trunk - allows modifications (seat with fold-able/raising spray deflector) I was thinking about raising footwell floor to a deck level to get more headroom inside and make "dry" footwell. There are several problems with it: - it is need to make "wings/bench" to sit on - if bench is raised above deck level: = need to step over it (tripping hazard), not as safe as to sit on a deck (fall 1 ft down) = it reduces main hatch opening, need to raise pilothouse for comfortable entrance. = it raises vertical center of gravity (pilot house top, cockpit, crew. Not a big deal, but it is need to take it into consideration) = some (even heavy) objects could be rolled_out/washed_out from the deck more easily if dropped - it reduces aft side deck This is just short list. May be I missed something... So I decided to raise the deck (including cockpit) instead of modifying cockpit. It raises vertical center of gravity which need to be compensated, but I got the headroom I want. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > The reason I might raise the cockpit floor is to gain exterior-accessible, but sealed storage, > somewhere I can throw big wet things. My 23 has a huge cockpit locker, unfortunately, > it is "inside" the boat, so, it has all the disadvantages of a second large opening into the > hull, that can't be used as an exit, not as useful. I am looking at my 41, and looking at > the deeply sunk cockpit floor, thinking of adding a raised floor to make an exterior-accessible > storage that is not part of the inside of the boat. I would leave the current cockpit drains in > place to keep the storage dry. > > Upright tenderness stability is affected by the weight times its distance from the center of > mass. If you are moving it only 4-5 inches, that is a small change on a small distance. > It would be more mathematical volume inside, but would it be noticeable, usable additional > volume ? It would be some mass -- if Kim left the current cockpit in, and put in a new cockpit > floor, and then maybe seats and rails to make the higher cockpit -- but that is still not very > high. Consider what one might put on top of the mast head, and trade off mass times > distance. In non-vertical stability, as in, wet cockpit, the added dry volume higher is helping > the rolling moment to put one back vertical. > > One could have a cockpit with sides made of multiple levels of sturdy rails and open-under > benches, like park benches. Lots of space to chuck stuff and tie it off in nice weather. It > presents a clean deck-like area when the stuff is stowed in not so good weather. It is also > far less or no water volume if swamped by a wave, it would be gone as fast as it came. > One would definitely be more "out there". A wash of water could easily wash clear through > the cockpit in a straight line without slowing down. It might slam you to a rail, and hold you > there very forcefully, whereas, the water can't flow through a sunken cockpit as fast, it has > to flow around like a sloshing bathtub. > > Norm Moore has cited a book written based on experience. What could be better ? Stephens > argues against a deep cockpit, but, on a quick skim, seems to consider only enclosed cockpits > with some depth. It would be interesting to hear what Stephens and/or Rhodes might say > about the modern cockpit designs, if they saw them. That is one of the reasons I am reluctant > to modify my cockpit -- Rhodes knew a lot more than me about what worked well. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:23:04 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was also thinking to make modifications to my cockpit by raising it 4 to 5. inches , I see many advantages like it was just said before by letting less water volume and also adding interior space wich is the point that interest me. > > Some plans dont even have a cockpit but this is too radical for me. > > Any negative point? > > Would it raise center of gravity too much.? > > > > Martin > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: m_j_malone@... > > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:50:45 -0500 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim, > > > > > > The distortion may be an indication of how stiff the rear transom of the boat currently > > > is. This seems like a good thing. All Brent's tales of extreme situations a Swain > > > has withstood, seem to depend on that closed stiffness. Opening the back would seem > > > to take away from its ability to bounce on reefs for instance. Also, the inside corners of > > > an open C are harder to make strong -- look at a C-clamp, where do they fail ? > > > > > > Everything Giuseppe Bergman said sounds like my first thoughts on this. The open > > > transom looks to my like a trend, and not a practical one. It looks like something > > > more popular on planing hull boats, so one can more easily see the water just as it > > > leaves the aft of the boat. I imagine it provides more of a feeling of speed, like driving > > > a car that is shorter, or riding a motorcycle where you can see the ground go by closer > > > in your peripheral vision. The same speed feels faster. Take a look at the Oyster 575: > > > > > > http://www.boats.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/oyster-575-3436.jpg > > > > > > It has an "open" transom style cockpit, but the cockpit floor is so raised off the water as to make > > > the structural transom closed. This seems safer and stronger to me. One could do that, > > > raise the floor of the cockpit without raising the transom to get the same open-back effect. > > > The cockpit would drain well.... draining away everything smaller than a beachball and > > > lighter than a bowling ball.... everything like tools, hand-helds, plates, utensiles, > > > recently-dropped nuts bolts and other hardware... I like the low inside corners in my cockpit. > > > They seem to say to me, second chance to grab stuff before it leaves. > > > > > > Also look at the scoop volume of the cockpit on the Oyster 575 -- small compared to the > > > flotation of the boat so if you are swamped, it does not change the weight of the boat a > > > lot. Here is an Open 60: > > > > > > http://www.mo-go.com/Image_Other/images/Open-60_jpg.jpg > > > > > > At the rear, the transom is cut out, but only to make a sort of open-back well. The cockpit > > > itself is small and closed, with little volume compared to the flotation of the boat. > > > Open 60s are considered some of the safest of experimental boats. > > > > > > I do not know if I ran into the Ming-Ming project reading here or somewhere else, but, > > > the first thing this guy does is reduce the cockpit volume along with other things to > > > make a safer, more ocean-worthy boat. > > > > > > http://www.thesimplesailor.com/Mingming.html > > > > > > Your photos showing the no-transom boats, had large scoop-volumes for their cockpit, > > > and no protection from following seas. The first thing that came to my mind was > > > unsafe, how fast one could be waist deep in water, and how much water that would be, > > > and all the lost stuff. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: kimdxx@... > > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:55:17 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. > > > > > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: > > > > > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? > > > > > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27437|27424|2012-01-20 16:21:09|brentswain38|Cockpit arrangement (was Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on |How do you have a walk thru transom with an outboard rudder and a super simple, bulletproof self steering system? The walk thru transom makes the things which really count, non options. It makes steering and self steering extremely complicated and prone to failure. Walk thru transoms are for marina party boats, not simple, practical offshore cruising boats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I recently was looking for some possible changes to a cockpit as well. Some ideas just will not work on a boat less than 60 ft (my 3D model is about 38-39). > > What I like about Brent's cockpit: > > - very simple > - safe - easy to get on the deck. 1 step up from footwell and you are there. > - deck as a bench (it curved and allow you to sit comfortably without sliding into a cockpit when boat heeled) > - no bench back-rest /cockpit-wings to step over, or will reduce main hatch's openings. > - footwell has large drainage openings > - original design allows to see over pilothouse top when sitting. > - the length of cockpit can be reduced by making watertight removable aft trunk > - allows modifications (seat with fold-able/raising spray deflector) > > I was thinking about raising footwell floor to a deck level to get more headroom inside and make "dry" footwell. There are several problems with it: > > - it is need to make "wings/bench" to sit on > - if bench is raised above deck level: > = need to step over it (tripping hazard), not as safe as to sit on a deck (fall 1 ft down) > = it reduces main hatch opening, need to raise pilothouse for comfortable entrance. > = it raises vertical center of gravity (pilot house top, cockpit, crew. Not a big deal, but it is need to take it into consideration) > = some (even heavy) objects could be rolled_out/washed_out from the deck more easily if dropped > - it reduces aft side deck > > This is just short list. May be I missed something... So I decided to raise the deck (including cockpit) instead of modifying cockpit. It raises vertical center of gravity which need to be compensated, but I got the headroom I want. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > The reason I might raise the cockpit floor is to gain exterior-accessible, but sealed storage, > > somewhere I can throw big wet things. My 23 has a huge cockpit locker, unfortunately, > > it is "inside" the boat, so, it has all the disadvantages of a second large opening into the > > hull, that can't be used as an exit, not as useful. I am looking at my 41, and looking at > > the deeply sunk cockpit floor, thinking of adding a raised floor to make an exterior-accessible > > storage that is not part of the inside of the boat. I would leave the current cockpit drains in > > place to keep the storage dry. > > > > Upright tenderness stability is affected by the weight times its distance from the center of > > mass. If you are moving it only 4-5 inches, that is a small change on a small distance. > > It would be more mathematical volume inside, but would it be noticeable, usable additional > > volume ? It would be some mass -- if Kim left the current cockpit in, and put in a new cockpit > > floor, and then maybe seats and rails to make the higher cockpit -- but that is still not very > > high. Consider what one might put on top of the mast head, and trade off mass times > > distance. In non-vertical stability, as in, wet cockpit, the added dry volume higher is helping > > the rolling moment to put one back vertical. > > > > One could have a cockpit with sides made of multiple levels of sturdy rails and open-under > > benches, like park benches. Lots of space to chuck stuff and tie it off in nice weather. It > > presents a clean deck-like area when the stuff is stowed in not so good weather. It is also > > far less or no water volume if swamped by a wave, it would be gone as fast as it came. > > One would definitely be more "out there". A wash of water could easily wash clear through > > the cockpit in a straight line without slowing down. It might slam you to a rail, and hold you > > there very forcefully, whereas, the water can't flow through a sunken cockpit as fast, it has > > to flow around like a sloshing bathtub. > > > > Norm Moore has cited a book written based on experience. What could be better ? Stephens > > argues against a deep cockpit, but, on a quick skim, seems to consider only enclosed cockpits > > with some depth. It would be interesting to hear what Stephens and/or Rhodes might say > > about the modern cockpit designs, if they saw them. That is one of the reasons I am reluctant > > to modify my cockpit -- Rhodes knew a lot more than me about what worked well. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mdemers2005@ > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:23:04 -0500 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was also thinking to make modifications to my cockpit by raising it 4 to 5. inches , I see many advantages like it was just said before by letting less water volume and also adding interior space wich is the point that interest me. > > > > Some plans dont even have a cockpit but this is too radical for me. > > > > Any negative point? > > > > Would it raise center of gravity too much.? > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: m_j_malone@ > > > > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:50:45 -0500 > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim, > > > > > > > > > > The distortion may be an indication of how stiff the rear transom of the boat currently > > > > > is. This seems like a good thing. All Brent's tales of extreme situations a Swain > > > > > has withstood, seem to depend on that closed stiffness. Opening the back would seem > > > > > to take away from its ability to bounce on reefs for instance. Also, the inside corners of > > > > > an open C are harder to make strong -- look at a C-clamp, where do they fail ? > > > > > > > > > > Everything Giuseppe Bergman said sounds like my first thoughts on this. The open > > > > > transom looks to my like a trend, and not a practical one. It looks like something > > > > > more popular on planing hull boats, so one can more easily see the water just as it > > > > > leaves the aft of the boat. I imagine it provides more of a feeling of speed, like driving > > > > > a car that is shorter, or riding a motorcycle where you can see the ground go by closer > > > > > in your peripheral vision. The same speed feels faster. Take a look at the Oyster 575: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.boats.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/oyster-575-3436.jpg > > > > > > > > > > It has an "open" transom style cockpit, but the cockpit floor is so raised off the water as to make > > > > > the structural transom closed. This seems safer and stronger to me. One could do that, > > > > > raise the floor of the cockpit without raising the transom to get the same open-back effect. > > > > > The cockpit would drain well.... draining away everything smaller than a beachball and > > > > > lighter than a bowling ball.... everything like tools, hand-helds, plates, utensiles, > > > > > recently-dropped nuts bolts and other hardware... I like the low inside corners in my cockpit. > > > > > They seem to say to me, second chance to grab stuff before it leaves. > > > > > > > > > > Also look at the scoop volume of the cockpit on the Oyster 575 -- small compared to the > > > > > flotation of the boat so if you are swamped, it does not change the weight of the boat a > > > > > lot. Here is an Open 60: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mo-go.com/Image_Other/images/Open-60_jpg.jpg > > > > > > > > > > At the rear, the transom is cut out, but only to make a sort of open-back well. The cockpit > > > > > itself is small and closed, with little volume compared to the flotation of the boat. > > > > > Open 60s are considered some of the safest of experimental boats. > > > > > > > > > > I do not know if I ran into the Ming-Ming project reading here or somewhere else, but, > > > > > the first thing this guy does is reduce the cockpit volume along with other things to > > > > > make a safer, more ocean-worthy boat. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.thesimplesailor.com/Mingming.html > > > > > > > > > > Your photos showing the no-transom boats, had large scoop-volumes for their cockpit, > > > > > and no protection from following seas. The first thing that came to my mind was > > > > > unsafe, how fast one could be waist deep in water, and how much water that would be, > > > > > and all the lost stuff. > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: kimdxx@ > > > > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:55:17 +0000 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > > > > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 27438|27424|2012-01-20 16:49:40|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|I see no problem with that. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > I was also thinking to make modifications to my cockpit by raising it 4 to 5. inches , I see many advantages like it was just said before by letting less water volume and also adding interior space wich is the point that interest me. > Some plans dont even have a cockpit but this is too radical for me. > Any negative point? > Would it raise center of gravity too much.? > > Martin > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: m_j_malone@... > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:50:45 -0500 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > Kim, > > > > The distortion may be an indication of how stiff the rear transom of the boat currently > > is. This seems like a good thing. All Brent's tales of extreme situations a Swain > > has withstood, seem to depend on that closed stiffness. Opening the back would seem > > to take away from its ability to bounce on reefs for instance. Also, the inside corners of > > an open C are harder to make strong -- look at a C-clamp, where do they fail ? > > > > Everything Giuseppe Bergman said sounds like my first thoughts on this. The open > > transom looks to my like a trend, and not a practical one. It looks like something > > more popular on planing hull boats, so one can more easily see the water just as it > > leaves the aft of the boat. I imagine it provides more of a feeling of speed, like driving > > a car that is shorter, or riding a motorcycle where you can see the ground go by closer > > in your peripheral vision. The same speed feels faster. Take a look at the Oyster 575: > > > > http://www.boats.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/oyster-575-3436.jpg > > > > It has an "open" transom style cockpit, but the cockpit floor is so raised off the water as to make > > the structural transom closed. This seems safer and stronger to me. One could do that, > > raise the floor of the cockpit without raising the transom to get the same open-back effect. > > The cockpit would drain well.... draining away everything smaller than a beachball and > > lighter than a bowling ball.... everything like tools, hand-helds, plates, utensiles, > > recently-dropped nuts bolts and other hardware... I like the low inside corners in my cockpit. > > They seem to say to me, second chance to grab stuff before it leaves. > > > > Also look at the scoop volume of the cockpit on the Oyster 575 -- small compared to the > > flotation of the boat so if you are swamped, it does not change the weight of the boat a > > lot. Here is an Open 60: > > > > http://www.mo-go.com/Image_Other/images/Open-60_jpg.jpg > > > > At the rear, the transom is cut out, but only to make a sort of open-back well. The cockpit > > itself is small and closed, with little volume compared to the flotation of the boat. > > Open 60s are considered some of the safest of experimental boats. > > > > I do not know if I ran into the Ming-Ming project reading here or somewhere else, but, > > the first thing this guy does is reduce the cockpit volume along with other things to > > make a safer, more ocean-worthy boat. > > > > http://www.thesimplesailor.com/Mingming.html > > > > Your photos showing the no-transom boats, had large scoop-volumes for their cockpit, > > and no protection from following seas. The first thing that came to my mind was > > unsafe, how fast one could be waist deep in water, and how much water that would be, > > and all the lost stuff. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: kimdxx@... > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:55:17 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27439|27439|2012-01-20 16:52:17|badpirate36|Pangaea. look'in for contact info?|A friend of mine sent me a picture of Pangaea that he took last summer. Does anyone have any contact information on Pangaea's owner? I would like to add a hard-dodger to my BS/36 and would like to get some more pictures of Pangaea's hard-dodger to show a builder. Thanx Tom Casault| 27440|27440|2012-01-20 16:58:01|brentswain38|BC Nautical Residents Association|For BC liveaboards, check out the BC nautical residents association. Ten bucks for a lifetime membership is such a deal. High time we had someone representing BC liveaboards. The more people join, the more political clout liveaboards have. Looks like they have been scoring some major victories on our behalf already.| 27441|27338|2012-01-20 20:03:12|GP|Re: airhead vent|Martin: 4 person use was 2 weeks and still room in the head. I get a month by myself. Check out this link for a forum discussion on every aspect of composting heads. Also you can search in the forum using Nature's Head and Air Head http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f115/composting-toilets-33029.html --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > How long to fill the toilet when 4 people aboard? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: aguysailing@... > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:06:06 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I ran flexible hose pipe along side the cockpit and then through a scupper down to just above the waterline with a piece of screen over the end of the hose to prevent bugs getting in. Works fine and no odour drafts up ...seems to just get dispersed down near the water. Also I noticed in general that after birthing conservatives there was not much smell past the few "ripe" moments. I use coconut pith... comes in blocks ... under $20 package lasts me 2 years. I have had 4 people aboard for coupla weeks with this set up and all works well. > > > > ... Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? > > > > > > I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. > > > > > > Anybody see a problem with that option? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27442|27338|2012-01-20 20:08:44|martin demers|Re: airhead vent|Ok thanks for the info To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: aguysailing@... Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:03:10 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent Martin: 4 person use was 2 weeks and still room in the head. I get a month by myself. Check out this link for a forum discussion on every aspect of composting heads. Also you can search in the forum using Nature's Head and Air Head http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f115/composting-toilets-33029.html --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > How long to fill the toilet when 4 people aboard? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: aguysailing@... > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:06:06 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead vent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I ran flexible hose pipe along side the cockpit and then through a scupper down to just above the waterline with a piece of screen over the end of the hose to prevent bugs getting in. Works fine and no odour drafts up ...seems to just get dispersed down near the water. Also I noticed in general that after birthing conservatives there was not much smell past the few "ripe" moments. I use coconut pith... comes in blocks ... under $20 package lasts me 2 years. I have had 4 people aboard for coupla weeks with this set up and all works well. > > > > ... Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" wrote: > > > > > > For those of you guys who uses composting heads, where does your vents exit the hull? > > > > > > I was thinking that making it go through the deck near a back stay would be a good idea, you could make the vent follow the back stay for 10 to 15 feet up(or as high as someone wants it), so the smell wouldn't be a problem. Using flexible pipe above deck would make this extremely easy. > > > > > > Anybody see a problem with that option? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27443|27440|2012-01-20 20:16:13|GP|Re: BC Nautical Residents Association|http://bcnr.org/ This group is worth joining even if you do not cruise BC waters. Helping this group get up and going with larger membership would help other liveaboards start similar groups to an association of groups down the road. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > For BC liveaboards, check out the BC nautical residents association. Ten bucks for a lifetime membership is such a deal. High time we had someone representing BC liveaboards. The more people join, the more political clout liveaboards have. Looks like they have been scoring some major victories on our behalf already. > | 27444|27433|2012-01-20 20:49:44|Doug Jackson|Re: wheelhouse revision|If you're going to beach it, maybe it should have a foot (don't think that's the proper name) under the rudders, and maybe prop shrouds would be a good idea for power and propeller protection.   And isn't there a children's book with that boat in it? :)  We saw a great little home build tug name Slow Poke up in the Bellingham area.  Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: westotters To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 11:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] wheelhouse revision   decided to see what the wheelhoue would look liek moved forward..i like it! any comments -? compare to my latest uploads where the wheelhouse is set back 1.5 ft. off the main deck... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27445|27424|2012-01-21 06:36:57|Tom Mann|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Hello Kim Structualy I dont think it would be a problem but on an aft raked transom I dont think it would look right that and following seas in steep chop with a small heavy boat might make for a wet ride. Tom On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 11:55 PM, Kim wrote: > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" > transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if > the idea is feasible or not. > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make > it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity > of the boat. > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in > any way. > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll > see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what > it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages > of the idea might include the following: > > > > ADVANTAGES > ---------- > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > board). > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy > (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > DISADVANTAGES > ------------- > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the > stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the > transom was cut out? > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance > between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting > points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's > drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom > and the bottom of the skeg). > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance > above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a > wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard > could easily be fitted to prevent this). > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is > maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue > anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain > unchanged. > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was > welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, > I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom > at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I > cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is > completely eliminated! > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom > idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > Many thanks! > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27446|27440|2012-01-21 14:54:50|martin demers|Re: BC Nautical Residents Association|You answered my question, because I dont live in BC Is there other similar groups in Canada? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: aguysailing@... Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:16:09 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BC Nautical Residents Association http://bcnr.org/ This group is worth joining even if you do not cruise BC waters. Helping this group get up and going with larger membership would help other liveaboards start similar groups to an association of groups down the road. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > For BC liveaboards, check out the BC nautical residents association. Ten bucks for a lifetime membership is such a deal. High time we had someone representing BC liveaboards. The more people join, the more political clout liveaboards have. Looks like they have been scoring some major victories on our behalf already. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27447|27424|2012-01-21 17:15:37|martin demers|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: normmoore@... Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens unfinished manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and safer. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: Kim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Hi Brent and everyone ... Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: ADVANTAGES ---------- * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). * Maybe easier fishing? * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. * Incomparable cockpit drainage! DISADVANTAGES ------------- * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. Many thanks! Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27448|27448|2012-01-21 17:40:14|raggedgentleman|Hello, I'm new|Hey Guys, Just joined this group, seems like there is a wealth of knowledge here! My name is Chris, I live in Chicago, I am learning to weld, and want to build a sailboat eventually. At first I was thinking of making a scaled down version. but I can't find plans. So, I am looking for a recommendation/information on where to get plans from. any leads would be much appreciated. I figured finding plans would be the easy part =) but I am having a hard time. Thanks, Chris| 27449|27424|2012-01-21 17:41:17|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Stephens who? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: normmoore@... > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens unfinished > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > safer. > > > > Norm Moore > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Kim > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > feasible or not. > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > boat. > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any > > way. > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea > > might include the following: > > > > ADVANTAGES > > ---------- > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > board). > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > ------------- > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut > > out? > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely > > eliminated! > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > Many thanks! > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27450|27424|2012-01-21 17:43:57|martin demers|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Brent, I was answering to Norm's mail about Rod Stephens book Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:41:14 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Stephens who? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: normmoore@... > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens unfinished > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > safer. > > > > Norm Moore > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Kim > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > feasible or not. > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > boat. > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any > > way. > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea > > might include the following: > > > > ADVANTAGES > > ---------- > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > board). > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > ------------- > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut > > out? > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely > > eliminated! > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > Many thanks! > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27451|27439|2012-01-21 17:45:30|brentswain38|Re: Pangaea. look'in for contact info?|Harvey is the owner, a geoduck diver, Never learned his last name, despite having know him for decades. Dives on the west coast of Vancouver Island a lot. Geoduck divers will know him. Sometimes comes to Comox, but not here how. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > A friend of mine sent me a picture of Pangaea that he took last summer. > Does anyone have any contact information on Pangaea's owner? I would like to add a hard-dodger to my BS/36 and would like to get some more pictures of Pangaea's hard-dodger to show a builder. > > Thanx > Tom Casault > | 27452|27440|2012-01-21 17:48:04|brentswain38|Re: BC Nautical Residents Association|I'm unaware of any , but more should be set up. The legal precedents established here would apply across Canada. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > You answered my question, because I dont live in BC > Is there other similar groups in Canada? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: aguysailing@... > Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:16:09 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BC Nautical Residents Association > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://bcnr.org/ > > > > This group is worth joining even if you do not cruise BC waters. Helping this group get up and going with larger membership would help other liveaboards start similar groups to an association of groups down the road. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > For BC liveaboards, check out the BC nautical residents association. Ten bucks for a lifetime membership is such a deal. High time we had someone representing BC liveaboards. The more people join, the more political clout liveaboards have. Looks like they have been scoring some major victories on our behalf already. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27453|27424|2012-01-21 17:53:24|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|i don't believe Rod Stephens ever sailed single handed in winter, an enlightening experience, when you don't get to leave the helm to someone else and go below to warm up. He lived in the New York Yacht Club culture of "style over substance" His experiences are thus irrelevant to full time, year round, low income cruisers, and a bad source of advice on this matter.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, I was answering to Norm's mail about Rod Stephens book > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:41:14 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephens who? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: normmoore@ > > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens unfinished > > > > > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > > > > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > > > > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > > > > > safer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Kim > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > > > > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > > > > > feasible or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an > > > > > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > > > > > boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > > > > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > > > > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea > > > > > > might include the following: > > > > > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > > > > > board). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly > > > > > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > > > > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut > > > > > > out? > > > > > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the > > > > > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at > > > > > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about > > > > > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above > > > > > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, > > > > > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could > > > > > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > > > > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the > > > > > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > > > > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > > > > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the > > > > > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > > > > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely > > > > > > eliminated! > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > > > > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27454|27448|2012-01-21 19:23:18|j fisher|Re: Hello, I'm new|Plans for Brent's designs are available directly from him. while it sounds old fashioned, send him a check and he sends you the plans. Pretty simple and quicker than you think. Steel boats done scale down very well since you can not keep making the steel thinner as they get smaller. Once you get under about 25 ft, you need to consider other materials. On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 9:43 AM, raggedgentleman < christopherleefanning@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hey Guys, > > Just joined this group, seems like there is a wealth of knowledge here! > My name is Chris, I live in Chicago, I am learning to weld, and want to > build a sailboat eventually. > > At first I was thinking of making a scaled down version. but I can't find > plans. > > So, I am looking for a recommendation/information on where to get plans > from. > > any leads would be much appreciated. I figured finding plans would be the > easy part =) but I am having a hard time. > > Thanks, > Chris > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27455|27448|2012-01-21 19:40:18|James Pronk|Re: Hello, I'm new|Chris Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for the 40 $500. They can be ordered the same way as the book, as below: To reach Brent by mail, write to: 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 To order a copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat -- a Heretic's Guide"  (illus.,100 pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 for postage to the above address. Brent's e-mail address is: brentswain38@... Good luck James --- On Sat, 1/21/12, raggedgentleman wrote: From: raggedgentleman Subject: [origamiboats] Hello, I'm new To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, January 21, 2012, 11:43 AM   Hey Guys, Just joined this group, seems like there is a wealth of knowledge here! My name is Chris, I live in Chicago, I am learning to weld, and want to build a sailboat eventually. At first I was thinking of making a scaled down version. but I can't find plans. So, I am looking for a recommendation/information on where to get plans from. any leads would be much appreciated. I figured finding plans would be the easy part =) but I am having a hard time. Thanks, Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27456|27424|2012-01-22 17:16:09|Norm Moore|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can see someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of below decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because Brent has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came from a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can also appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the engineers that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might have a good idea once in awhile too. I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those without merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I necessarily must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have to say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced to take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote for the lesser of two evils. The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical world. So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of something as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed safely without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits up higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit drains so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may have merit or not. We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading someone's ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk assumptions about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone else here. One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes far less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is a monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for a juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what my thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or no comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for ourselves and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to find them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the ideas of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do without the thought police please. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: normmoore@... Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens unfinished manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and safer. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: Kim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Hi Brent and everyone ... Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: ADVANTAGES ---------- * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). * Maybe easier fishing? * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. * Incomparable cockpit drainage! DISADVANTAGES ------------- * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. Many thanks! Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27457|27424|2012-01-22 17:35:40|martin demers|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Good point, But if you are talking of my post it was not meant as a thought police but just to cause a discussion on the subject Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: normmoore@... Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 14:16:08 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can see someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of below decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because Brent has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came from a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can also appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the engineers that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might have a good idea once in awhile too. I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those without merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I necessarily must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have to say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced to take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote for the lesser of two evils. The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical world. So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of something as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed safely without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits up higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit drains so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may have merit or not. We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading someone's ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk assumptions about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone else here. One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes far less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is a monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for a juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what my thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or no comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for ourselves and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to find them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the ideas of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do without the thought police please. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: normmoore@... Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens unfinished manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and safer. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: Kim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Hi Brent and everyone ... Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: ADVANTAGES ---------- * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). * Maybe easier fishing? * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. * Incomparable cockpit drainage! DISADVANTAGES ------------- * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. Many thanks! Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27458|27424|2012-01-22 23:03:16|Kim|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Giuseppe, Matt, Norm, Tom and Brent ... Thanks for your responses to my "open transom" question. As I mentioned in my original email, I've never been in an open-transom boat; but based on your comments it sounds as though it's not a particularly good idea. So I'll leave the transom on my boat as it is, as designed. Another reason that the open transom idea appealed to me is this: I'm getting old fast. Too fast. I'm no longer able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. I assumed that an open transom would make it much easier and safer to get in and out of a dinghy, and that seemed like a good thing. But even if that's true, it sounds like other disadvantages of an open transom far outweigh any advantages. At any rate, I'll use some other means to hide the panel distortion in the bit of the transom that I was going to cut out, and I'm sure any dinghy access issues can be resolved by other means too. Brent: Just as a matter of curiosity, if I had cut out a bit of the transom to make it a walk-through type (http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom), would that have adversely affected the structural integrity of the boat in any way? Thanks again! Cheers ... Kim. ________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > How do you have a walk thru transom with an outboard rudder and a super simple, bulletproof self steering system? The walk thru transom makes the things which really count, non options. It makes steering and self steering extremely complicated and prone to failure. > Walk thru transoms are for marina party boats, not simple, practical offshore cruising boats. ________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: > > ADVANTAGES > ---------- > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > DISADVANTAGES > ------------- > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > Many thanks! > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ________________________________________________ | 27459|27424|2012-01-23 02:44:25|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Am 23.01.2012 um 05:03 schrieb Kim: > Another reason that the open transom idea appealed to me is this: I'm getting old fast. Too fast. I'm no longer able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. I assumed that an open transom would make it much easier and safer to get in and out of a dinghy, and that seemed like a good thing. But even if that's true, it sounds like other disadvantages of an open transom far outweigh any advantages. Hi Kim. The open transom would not help You so much in the issue of entering and leaving Your boat to dinghi or shorewalls I'm afraid. To board a dinghi safely from the mothership You do not necessarily need an open transom but could well use some solid, wide enough and nonskid steps in appropriate distance together with one bulletproof while ergonomic handrail on each side of the steps, thus to enable You to stand on each of the steps with both feet (or boots, that is), even to enable You to turn around on each step and hold fast on either side while turning. At least in the Med and at any place I've been with no swimming pontons to follow the tide, transom to dock would be literally impossible with an open transom because You will often stand about fifty to sixty centimeters above waterlevel on Your open transom and have to climb up to the average quay of two to two and a half meters with middle to high tide. Docking transomwise worked best for me with a light but sturdy gangway, movably fixed at one point to the transom on decklevel, hoistable towards masttop with a halyard and completed with two not to tiny rubber wheels on the dockside what prevents chafe. I built some of those from normal aluminium ladders (best alloy I found was AlMn 4.5 Sn, almost seasafe) up to 4.5 meters with a custom hinge to fold it for stowing and with slim teak grating to step safely when wet and/or steep. Compared with chandlery prices for fancy gangways, the ladder-solution could count as nearly giveaway. Cheers G_B [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27460|27424|2012-01-23 07:21:58|Kim|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Thanks Giuseppe! In his book Brent has a drawing of a strong-looking boarding ladder (pages 77 & 76) that also doubles as a means of getting on and off the twin-keeler when it's sitting on the hard. If I build that I'm sure it would do the job (getting in and out of a dinghy) without any problems. To make it even easier I might also build a small fixed duckboard (boarding platform) to the bottom of the transom just above the waterline as well. On this boat it would also provide rudder protection. I've had a duckboard on my other boats and they greatly reduce the drama of getting in and out of a dinghy, particularly if there's any swell in the anchorage. Your idea of using an aluminium ladder as a gangway is excellent! I don't like living in marinas, and much prefer life on the pick, so anything that helps the mothership-dinghy interaction has got to be a good thing! :-) Cheers ... Kim. ___________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > Am 23.01.2012 um 05:03 schrieb Kim: > > > Another reason that the open transom idea appealed to me is this: I'm getting old fast. Too fast. I'm no longer able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. I assumed that an open transom would make it much easier and safer to get in and out of a dinghy, and that seemed like a good thing. But even if that's true, it sounds like other disadvantages of an open transom far outweigh any advantages. > > Hi Kim. > > The open transom would not help You so much in the issue of entering and leaving Your boat to dinghi or shorewalls I'm afraid. > > To board a dinghi safely from the mothership You do not necessarily need an open transom but could well use some solid, wide enough and nonskid steps in appropriate distance together with one bulletproof while ergonomic handrail on each side of the steps, thus to enable You to stand on each of the steps with both feet (or boots, that is), even to enable You to turn around on each step and hold fast on either side while turning. > > At least in the Med and at any place I've been with no swimming pontons to follow the tide, transom to dock would be literally impossible with an open transom because You will often stand about fifty to sixty centimeters above waterlevel on Your open transom and have to climb up to the average quay of two to two and a half meters with middle to high tide. > > Docking transomwise worked best for me with a light but sturdy gangway, movably fixed at one point to the transom on decklevel, hoistable towards masttop with a halyard and completed with two not to tiny rubber wheels on the dockside what prevents chafe. > > I built some of those from normal aluminium ladders (best alloy I found was AlMn 4.5 Sn, almost seasafe) up to 4.5 meters with a custom hinge to fold it for stowing and with slim teak grating to step safely when wet and/or steep. > > Compared with chandlery prices for fancy gangways, the ladder-solution could count as nearly giveaway. > > Cheers G_B ___________________________________ | 27461|27424|2012-01-23 09:17:31|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Hello Kim he laddergangways were not made for marina-use firsthand but for more economic public or fishermen's ports where we found quays slightly higher, sometimes rugged and not as accessible for yachts as in shiny marble marinas. The gratings were each fixed with a pair of boltlocks only to be toolfree removable what makes the conversion back to ladder easier. Watch number and position of holes relative to the strains in use. Sometimes it's handy to enter a tree of fruits with a ladder, so I wanted 'em light enough to be carried quite a distance on shore by one person in warm climate, for You still have to carry the supplemetal harvest. The hinges were easy-to-open design as well. You still would have to stow the teak though. ;-) G_B Am 23.01.2012 um 13:21 schrieb Kim: > > Thanks Giuseppe! > > In his book Brent has a drawing of a strong-looking boarding ladder (pages 77 & 76) that also doubles as a means of getting on and off the twin-keeler when it's sitting on the hard. If I build that I'm sure it would do the job (getting in and out of a dinghy) without any problems. > > To make it even easier I might also build a small fixed duckboard (boarding platform) to the bottom of the transom just above the waterline as well. On this boat it would also provide rudder protection. I've had a duckboard on my other boats and they greatly reduce the drama of getting in and out of a dinghy, particularly if there's any swell in the anchorage. > > Your idea of using an aluminium ladder as a gangway is excellent! > > I don't like living in marinas, and much prefer life on the pick, so anything that helps the mothership-dinghy interaction has got to be a good thing! :-) > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > ___________________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > > Am 23.01.2012 um 05:03 schrieb Kim: > > > > > Another reason that the open transom idea appealed to me is this: I'm getting old fast. Too fast. I'm no longer able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. I assumed that an open transom would make it much easier and safer to get in and out of a dinghy, and that seemed like a good thing. But even if that's true, it sounds like other disadvantages of an open transom far outweigh any advantages. > > > > Hi Kim. > > > > The open transom would not help You so much in the issue of entering and leaving Your boat to dinghi or shorewalls I'm afraid. > > > > To board a dinghi safely from the mothership You do not necessarily need an open transom but could well use some solid, wide enough and nonskid steps in appropriate distance together with one bulletproof while ergonomic handrail on each side of the steps, thus to enable You to stand on each of the steps with both feet (or boots, that is), even to enable You to turn around on each step and hold fast on either side while turning. > > > > At least in the Med and at any place I've been with no swimming pontons to follow the tide, transom to dock would be literally impossible with an open transom because You will often stand about fifty to sixty centimeters above waterlevel on Your open transom and have to climb up to the average quay of two to two and a half meters with middle to high tide. > > > > Docking transomwise worked best for me with a light but sturdy gangway, movably fixed at one point to the transom on decklevel, hoistable towards masttop with a halyard and completed with two not to tiny rubber wheels on the dockside what prevents chafe. > > > > I built some of those from normal aluminium ladders (best alloy I found was AlMn 4.5 Sn, almost seasafe) up to 4.5 meters with a custom hinge to fold it for stowing and with slim teak grating to step safely when wet and/or steep. > > > > Compared with chandlery prices for fancy gangways, the ladder-solution could count as nearly giveaway. > > > > Cheers G_B > ___________________________________ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27462|27424|2012-01-23 10:55:51|j fisher|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|As someone who has chartered open transom boats, they do work well in clam conditions for in and out to the dinghy. While I have not tried in rough conditions, I have heard that it almost impossible as the stern goes up and down a long way. Much safer to board amid ships when the weather is rough. I had considered putting a platform on the stern out of bars or expanded metal to allow stern boarding but keeping the transom solid. This should allow for waves to pass through platform without the swamping risk of an open transom. On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Kim wrote: > ** > > > > Giuseppe, Matt, Norm, Tom and Brent ... > > > > Another reason that the open transom idea appealed to me is this: I'm > getting old fast. Too fast. I'm no longer able to leap tall buildings in a > single bound. I assumed that an open transom would make it much easier and > safer to get in and out of a dinghy, and that seemed like a good thing. But > even if that's true, it sounds like other disadvantages of an open transom > far outweigh any advantages. > > > Kim. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27463|27424|2012-01-23 12:42:46|jason ball|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|well put norm...and i whole heartedly agree with you.epic! i look forward to your next chapter lol! --- On Sun, 22/1/12, Norm Moore wrote: From: Norm Moore Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 22 January, 2012, 22:16   I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can see someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of below decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because Brent has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came from a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can also appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the engineers that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might have a good idea once in awhile too. I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those without merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I necessarily must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have to say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced to take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote for the lesser of two evils. The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical world. So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of something as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed safely without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits up higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit drains so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may have merit or not. We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading someone's ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk assumptions about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone else here. One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes far less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is a monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for a juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what my thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or no comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for ourselves and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to find them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the ideas of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do without the thought police please. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: normmoore@... Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens unfinished manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and safer. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: Kim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Hi Brent and everyone ... Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: ADVANTAGES ---------- * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). * Maybe easier fishing? * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. * Incomparable cockpit drainage! DISADVANTAGES ------------- * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. Many thanks! Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27464|27424|2012-01-23 13:08:30|mkriley48|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|you will find while cruising you will not be using the dinghy from the Stern, boats hobbyhorse easily and the best place to get on and off the boat is on the side at the pivot point of rotation. very little motion there while the stern is going up and down several feet mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > Am 23.01.2012 um 05:03 schrieb Kim: > > > Another reason that the open transom idea appealed to me is this: I'm getting old fast. Too fast. I'm no longer able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. I assumed that an open transom would make it much easier and safer to get in and out of a dinghy, and that seemed like a good thing. But even if that's true, it sounds like other disadvantages of an open transom far outweigh any advantages. > > Hi Kim. > > The open transom would not help You so much in the issue of entering and leaving Your boat to dinghi or shorewalls I'm afraid. > > To board a dinghi safely from the mothership You do not necessarily need an open transom but could well use some solid, wide enough and nonskid steps in appropriate distance together with one bulletproof while ergonomic handrail on each side of the steps, thus to enable You to stand on each of the steps with both feet (or boots, that is), even to enable You to turn around on each step and hold fast on either side while turning. > > At least in the Med and at any place I've been with no swimming pontons to follow the tide, transom to dock would be literally impossible with an open transom because You will often stand about fifty to sixty centimeters above waterlevel on Your open transom and have to climb up to the average quay of two to two and a half meters with middle to high tide. > > Docking transomwise worked best for me with a light but sturdy gangway, movably fixed at one point to the transom on decklevel, hoistable towards masttop with a halyard and completed with two not to tiny rubber wheels on the dockside what prevents chafe. > > I built some of those from normal aluminium ladders (best alloy I found was AlMn 4.5 Sn, almost seasafe) up to 4.5 meters with a custom hinge to fold it for stowing and with slim teak grating to step safely when wet and/or steep. > > Compared with chandlery prices for fancy gangways, the ladder-solution could count as nearly giveaway. > > Cheers G_B > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27465|27424|2012-01-23 14:52:10|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|No progress or advancement was ever made without going against the rules. The "Way it is done" rules solidly block innovation, and thus progress. "The Way it is done" has given us horrendously complex, expensive and labour intensive boats, for the profits of those who sell and build them. Believing one can continue to do things the same way, with a different outcome, is self delusion. Such a course of action is strongly promoted by those who wish to maintain road blocks in front of low income cruisers, in order to maintain the relevance of their wealth Dealing with the two greatest obstacles to most boaters cruising dreams, time and money, can only be accomplished by thinking and doing things differently. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can see > someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of below > decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because Brent > has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with > many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came from > a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can also > appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the engineers > that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded > once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in > materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has > money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might have a > good idea once in awhile too. > > I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those without > merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I necessarily > must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have to > say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced to > take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote for > the lesser of two evils. > > > The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can > expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on > whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical world. > So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a > solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of something > as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed safely > without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of > having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits up > higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better > visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit drains > so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may have > merit or not. > > > We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal > decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading someone's > ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to > assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know > all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's > ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads > it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod > Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn > whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the > guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people > whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk assumptions > about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone > else here. > > > One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often > quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes far > less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is a > monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for a > juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I > just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect > anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what my > thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just > make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or no > comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and > their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for ourselves > and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where > knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to find > them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm > expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the ideas > of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do > without the thought police please. > > Norm Moore > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > ________________________________ > From: martin demers > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: normmoore@... > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens > unfinished > > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > safer. > > > > Norm Moore > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Kim > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > feasible or not. > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > boat. > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any > > way. > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea > > > might include the following: > > > > ADVANTAGES > > ---------- > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > board). > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > ------------- > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut > > > out? > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could > > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the > > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely > > eliminated! > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > Many thanks! > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27466|27424|2012-01-23 14:55:15|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|No, I don't think it would have affected the structural integrity. Steel boats of this size are so enormously over strength that such concerns are a moot point anyway. They simply done break. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Giuseppe, Matt, Norm, Tom and Brent ... > > Thanks for your responses to my "open transom" question. > > As I mentioned in my original email, I've never been in an open-transom boat; but based on your comments it sounds as though it's not a particularly good idea. So I'll leave the transom on my boat as it is, as designed. > > Another reason that the open transom idea appealed to me is this: I'm getting old fast. Too fast. I'm no longer able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. I assumed that an open transom would make it much easier and safer to get in and out of a dinghy, and that seemed like a good thing. But even if that's true, it sounds like other disadvantages of an open transom far outweigh any advantages. > k. > At any rate, I'll use some other means to hide the panel distortion in the bit of the transom that I was going to cut out, and I'm sure any dinghy access issues can be resolved by other means too. > > Brent: Just as a matter of curiosity, if I had cut out a bit of the transom to make it a walk-through type (http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom), would that have adversely affected the structural integrity of the boat in any way? > > Thanks again! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > ________________________________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > How do you have a walk thru transom with an outboard rudder and a super simple, bulletproof self steering system? The walk thru transom makes the things which really count, non options. It makes steering and self steering extremely complicated and prone to failure. > > Walk thru transoms are for marina party boats, not simple, practical offshore cruising boats. > ________________________________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is feasible or not. > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the boat. > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any way. > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the idea might include the following: > > > > ADVANTAGES > > ---------- > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on board). > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > ------------- > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was cut out? > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard could easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as the buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely eliminated! > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > Many thanks! > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > ________________________________________________ > | 27467|27424|2012-01-23 15:01:49|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|I still weld rungs on the transom and skeg, especially important on twin keelers, for climbing off the beach, when you forgot to put the ladder down at high tide. With so many people drowning in BC,after having fallen overboard and being unable to climb back , they have made such reboarding options mandatory here. I've lost several friends that way. Marinas are also installing boarding ladders for the same reason. All marinas need is a loop of old jib sheet to get your foot in, every 50 feet or less. Dirt cheap insurance. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, j fisher wrote: > > As someone who has chartered open transom boats, they do work well in clam > conditions for in and out to the dinghy. While I have not tried in rough > conditions, I have heard that it almost impossible as the stern goes up and > down a long way. Much safer to board amid ships when the weather is > rough. > I had considered putting a platform on the stern out of bars or expanded > metal to allow stern boarding but keeping the transom solid. This should > allow for waves to pass through platform without the swamping risk of an > open transom. > > On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Kim wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > > Giuseppe, Matt, Norm, Tom and Brent ... > > > > > > > > Another reason that the open transom idea appealed to me is this: I'm > > getting old fast. Too fast. I'm no longer able to leap tall buildings in a > > single bound. I assumed that an open transom would make it much easier and > > safer to get in and out of a dinghy, and that seemed like a good thing. But > > even if that's true, it sounds like other disadvantages of an open transom > > far outweigh any advantages. > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27468|27424|2012-01-23 15:58:13|Norm Moore|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Actually Brent I agree completely with what you say. However, using an example from Rod Stephen's book, I can take some practical suggestions on the construction and placement of hatches and dorade vents, building them as Stephen's suggests from scratch instead of just buying whats out there. In fact, most of the information and ideas in that manuscript that I find interesting have to do with construction details. Fabricating the items you need instead of buying them doesn't sound like, "The Way is is done" it sounds more like what a certain "heretic" here advocates. "The Way it is done" is just to buy whatever shit the marine industry is pushing and the one thing I truly believe is that this site and the people here are dedicated to NOT doing that. Building hatches from scratch and building dorades from scratch which are just some of the things Stephen's suggests in the book have nothing to do with "The Way it is done". I don't see why I and others shouldn't use some good technical info, such as how tall to make dorade boxes for a given size of vent, how to size the pipes used and how far they should extend in the box, anymore than say refusing to read information Beta Marine came up with on sizing integral steel tanks for keel cooling for different engine power levels. Is getting technical information from a different yet also experienced source no longer allowed here? I don't believe that what you're trying to say is "Hey, my way or the highway here buddy", but it's unfortunately coming across that way to me. I know that you have been repeatedly and viciously attacked by many others on different forums for speaking your mind and going against "the commonly held wisdom". I applaud you for your courage and admire your ability and willingness to share just those ideas, I spent a good part of my career doing exactly the same, and have suffered the slings and arrows too, so I am not one of those attackers. However when you denigrate something you haven't read and urge others not to read it either; you're just throwing the baby out with the bath water IMHO. I think that this site and your philosophy is actually reflected in many of the construction and fabrication ideas expressed in Stephen's book. I'm certain he says a lot of things you disagree with. Hey, a lot of what I read I disagree with myself, but allow me the courtesy of reading, understanding, and weighing the merits of anyone's ideas myself without telling me what I can or can't do or should or should not read. Fair? Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, January 23, 2012 11:52:05 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? No progress or advancement was ever made without going against the rules. The "Way it is done" rules solidly block innovation, and thus progress. "The Way it is done" has given us horrendously complex, expensive and labour intensive boats, for the profits of those who sell and build them. Believing one can continue to do things the same way, with a different outcome, is self delusion. Such a course of action is strongly promoted by those who wish to maintain road blocks in front of low income cruisers, in order to maintain the relevance of their wealth Dealing with the two greatest obstacles to most boaters cruising dreams, time and money, can only be accomplished by thinking and doing things differently. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can see > > someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of >below > > decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because >Brent > > has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with > many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came >from > > a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can also > appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the >engineers > > that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded > once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in > materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has > money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might have >a > > good idea once in awhile too. > > I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those >without > > merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I >necessarily > > must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have >to > > say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced >to > > take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote for > > the lesser of two evils. > > > The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can > expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on > whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical world. > So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a > solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of >something > > as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed safely > without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of > having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits >up > > higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better > visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit drains > so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may have > merit or not. > > > We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal > decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading >someone's > > ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to > assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know > all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's > ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads > it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod > Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn > whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the > guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people > whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk >assumptions > > about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone > else here. > > > One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often > quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes far > > less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is a > > monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for a > juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I > just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect > anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what my > thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just > make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or no > comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and > their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for ourselves > > and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where > knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to >find > > them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm > expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the ideas > of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do > without the thought police please. > > Norm Moore > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > ________________________________ > From: martin demers > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: normmoore@... > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens > unfinished > > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > safer. > > > > Norm Moore > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Kim > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > feasible or not. > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > boat. > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any > > way. > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the >idea > > > > might include the following: > > > > ADVANTAGES > > ---------- > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > board). > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly > > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > ------------- > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was >cut > > > > out? > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the > > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about > > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above > > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard >could > > > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as >the > > > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely > > eliminated! > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > Many thanks! > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27469|27424|2012-01-23 16:28:12|Paul Wilson|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Rod Stephens was a real ground breaker. He was never one to go along with the establishment and he and his brother Olin were considered heretics when they entered Dorade in the trans Atlantic race. They were very practical down to earth guys even though they happened to belong to yacht clubs.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderick_Stephens Paul On 24/01/2012 9:58 a.m., Norm Moore wrote: > > Actually Brent I agree completely with what you say. However, using an > example > from Rod Stephen's book, I can take some practical suggestions on the > construction and placement of hatches and dorade vents, building them as > Stephen's suggests from scratch instead of just buying whats out > there. In > fact, most of the information and ideas in that manuscript that I find > interesting have to do with construction details. Fabricating the > items you > need instead of buying them doesn't sound like, "The Way is is done" > it sounds > more like what a certain "heretic" here advocates. "The Way it is > done" is just > to buy whatever shit the marine industry is pushing and the one thing > I truly > believe is that this site and the people here are dedicated to NOT > doing that. > Building hatches from scratch and building dorades from scratch which > are just > some of the things Stephen's suggests in the book have nothing to do > with "The > Way it is done". > > I don't see why I and others shouldn't use some good technical info, > such as how > tall to make dorade boxes for a given size of vent, how to size the > pipes used > and how far they should extend in the box, anymore than say refusing > to read > information Beta Marine came up with on sizing integral steel tanks > for keel > cooling for different engine power levels. Is getting technical > information > from a different yet also experienced source no longer allowed here? > > I don't believe that what you're trying to say is "Hey, my way or the > highway > here buddy", but it's unfortunately coming across that way to me. I > know that > you have been repeatedly and viciously attacked by many others on > different > forums for speaking your mind and going against "the commonly held > wisdom". I > applaud you for your courage and admire your ability and willingness > to share > just those ideas, I spent a good part of my career doing exactly the > same, and > have suffered the slings and arrows too, so I am not one of those > attackers. > However when you denigrate something you haven't read and urge others > not to > read it either; you're just throwing the baby out with the bath water > IMHO. I > think that this site and your philosophy is actually reflected in many > of the > construction and fabrication ideas expressed in Stephen's book. I'm > certain he > says a lot of things you disagree with. Hey, a lot of what I read I > disagree > with myself, but allow me the courtesy of reading, understanding, and > weighing > the merits of anyone's ideas myself without telling me what I can or > can't do or > should or should not read. Fair? > > Norm Moore > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > when Texas executes one of them." > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, January 23, 2012 11:52:05 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a > Swain 26? > > No progress or advancement was ever made without going against the > rules. The > "Way it is done" rules solidly block innovation, and thus progress. > "The Way it > is done" has given us horrendously complex, expensive and labour > intensive > boats, for the profits of those who sell and build them. Believing one > can > continue to do things the same way, with a different outcome, is self > delusion. > Such a course of action is strongly promoted by those who wish to > maintain road > blocks in front of low income cruisers, in order to maintain the > relevance of > their wealth > Dealing with the two greatest obstacles to most boaters cruising > dreams, time > and money, can only be accomplished by thinking and doing things > differently. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Norm Moore wrote: > > > > I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical > unless I can see > > > > someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens > rejection of > >below > > > > decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, > because > >Brent > > > > has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do > this with > > many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because > it came > >from > > > > a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I > can also > > > appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the > >engineers > > > > that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel > being welded > > once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read > about it in > > materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because > he has > > money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they > might have > >a > > > > good idea once in awhile too. > > > > I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject > those > >without > > > > merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I > >necessarily > > > > must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything > they have > >to > > > > say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm > not forced > >to > > > > take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as > I vote for > > > > the lesser of two evils. > > > > > > The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is > that we can > > expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based > solely on > > whether for your application it really does have merit in the > practical world. > > > So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing > instead of a > > solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of > >something > > > > as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be > enclosed safely > > > without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The > idea of > > having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water > and sits > >up > > > > higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher > with better > > visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the > cockpit drains > > > so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just > guessing may have > > > merit or not. > > > > > > We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our > personal > > decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading > >someone's > > > > ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each > person to > > assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels > they know > > all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other > people's > > ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or > nobody reads > > it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you > think? Rod > > Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a > damn > > whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even > met the > > guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the > people > > whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk > >assumptions > > > > about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption > about anyone > > else here. > > > > > > One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that > discussions often > > quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas > becomes far > > > > less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That > to me is a > > > > monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone > looking for a > > > juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided > because I > > just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't > expect > > anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling > you what my > > > thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand > why I just > > make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with > little or no > > > comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so > much and > > their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for > ourselves > > > > and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast > library where > > knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little > work to > >find > > > > them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the > views I'm > > expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to > the ideas > > > of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I > can do > > without the thought police please. > > > > Norm Moore > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: martin demers > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a > Swain 26? > > > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: normmoore@... > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a > Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens > > unfinished > > > > > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens > website > > > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He > has some > > > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more > seaworthy and > > > > safer. > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Kim > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a > Swain 26? > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" > transom? > > > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the > idea is > > > > feasible or not. > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to > make it an > > > > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity > of the > > > > boat. > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the > boat in any > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link > you'll see > > > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know > what it's > > > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages > of the > >idea > > > > > > > > might include the following: > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing > back on > > > > board). > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy > (particularly > > > > > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would > the stern > > > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the > transom was > >cut > > > > > > > > out? > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance > between the > > > > > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points > would be at > > > > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show > them about > > > > > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of > the skeg). > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short > distance above > > > > > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a > wind-vane, > > > > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or > washboard > >could > > > > > > > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this > is maybe > > > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue > anyway, as > >the > > > > > > > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I > was welding > > > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the > transom at the > > > > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I > cut out > > > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is > completely > > > > > eliminated! > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open > transom idea. > > > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 27470|27424|2012-01-23 16:51:49|wild_explorer|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|I agree with Norm about availability of information. Norm always provides useful links/files worth of taking look at. I read Stephens book and found it very interesting. As Norm said, someone can agree or disagree with it, but it stimulates your brain to think ;) I probably missed a lot reading Stephens' book just ones (the same as I missed a lot of information even reading Brent's book several times). I can change my mind after weighting some solutions, even go back to what I rejected before... As always, it is personal choice for most people what to adopt/reject from available information.| 27471|27439|2012-01-23 21:29:09|badpirate36|Re: Pangaea. look'in for contact info?|Thanx Brent, your tip payed off, I've already made contact --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Harvey is the owner, a geoduck diver, Never learned his last name, despite having know him for decades. Dives on the west coast of Vancouver Island a lot. Geoduck divers will know him. Sometimes comes to Comox, but not here how. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > A friend of mine sent me a picture of Pangaea that he took last summer. > > Does anyone have any contact information on Pangaea's owner? I would like to add a hard-dodger to my BS/36 and would like to get some more pictures of Pangaea's hard-dodger to show a builder. > > > > Thanx > > Tom Casault > > > | 27472|27448|2012-01-24 16:31:19|raggedgentleman|Re: Hello, I'm new|James, Thanks for the info! Are their many other options? I was looking to start kinda small, Like a row boat or canoe. Thanks, Chris --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Chris > Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for > the 40 $500. They can be ordered the same way as the book, as below: > > To reach Brent by mail, write to: > > 3798 Laurel Drive, > Royston, British Columbia, > Canada > V0R-2V0 > > To order a copy of Brent's book > "How to Build a Better Steel Boat > -- a Heretic's Guide"  (illus.,100 > pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 > for postage to the above address. > > Brent's e-mail address is: > brentswain38@... > > Good luck > James > > --- On Sat, 1/21/12, raggedgentleman wrote: > > > From: raggedgentleman > Subject: [origamiboats] Hello, I'm new > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Saturday, January 21, 2012, 11:43 AM > > > >   > > > > Hey Guys, > > Just joined this group, seems like there is a wealth of knowledge here! > My name is Chris, I live in Chicago, I am learning to weld, and want to build a sailboat eventually. > > At first I was thinking of making a scaled down version. but I can't find plans. > > So, I am looking for a recommendation/information on where to get plans from. > > any leads would be much appreciated. I figured finding plans would be the easy part =) but I am having a hard time. > > Thanks, > Chris > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27473|27448|2012-01-24 16:31:32|raggedgentleman|Re: Hello, I'm new|I see, Thanks for that. So, are you saying steel would not be the material to use to make a small tender type boat? Where did Doug and Paul get their plans for their boats? Thanks, Chris --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, j fisher wrote: > > Plans for Brent's designs are available directly from him. while it sounds > old fashioned, send him a check and he sends you the plans. Pretty simple > and quicker than you think. > Steel boats done scale down very well since you can not keep making the > steel thinner as they get smaller. Once you get under about 25 ft, you > need to consider other materials. > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 9:43 AM, raggedgentleman < > christopherleefanning@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Hey Guys, > > > > Just joined this group, seems like there is a wealth of knowledge here! > > My name is Chris, I live in Chicago, I am learning to weld, and want to > > build a sailboat eventually. > > > > At first I was thinking of making a scaled down version. but I can't find > > plans. > > > > So, I am looking for a recommendation/information on where to get plans > > from. > > > > any leads would be much appreciated. I figured finding plans would be the > > easy part =) but I am having a hard time. > > > > Thanks, > > Chris > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27474|27448|2012-01-24 19:35:30|James Pronk|Re: Hello, I'm new|Brent has the plans or a drawing of a row boat in his book. If you look in the files section I think you will find photos of it.under Brents origami dinghy James   --- On Mon, 1/23/12, raggedgentleman wrote: From: raggedgentleman Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hello, I'm new To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, January 23, 2012, 5:52 PM   James, Thanks for the info! Are their many other options? I was looking to start kinda small, Like a row boat or canoe. Thanks, Chris --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Chris > Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for > the 40 $500. They can be ordered the same way as the book, as below: > > To reach Brent by mail, write to: > > 3798 Laurel Drive, > Royston, British Columbia, > Canada > V0R-2V0 > > To order a copy of Brent's book > "How to Build a Better Steel Boat > -- a Heretic's Guide"  (illus.,100 > pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 > for postage to the above address. > > Brent's e-mail address is: > brentswain38@... > > Good luck > James > > --- On Sat, 1/21/12, raggedgentleman wrote: > > > From: raggedgentleman > Subject: [origamiboats] Hello, I'm new > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Saturday, January 21, 2012, 11:43 AM > > > >   > > > > Hey Guys, > > Just joined this group, seems like there is a wealth of knowledge here! > My name is Chris, I live in Chicago, I am learning to weld, and want to build a sailboat eventually. > > At first I was thinking of making a scaled down version. but I can't find plans. > > So, I am looking for a recommendation/information on where to get plans from. > > any leads would be much appreciated. I figured finding plans would be the easy part =) but I am having a hard time. > > Thanks, > Chris > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27475|27448|2012-01-24 20:22:06|Brian Stannard|Re: Hello, I'm new|A steel canoe? On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 2:52 PM, raggedgentleman < christopherleefanning@...> wrote: > ** > > > James, > > Thanks for the info! > > Are their many other options? > > I was looking to start kinda small, Like a row boat or canoe. > > Thanks, > Chris > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Chris > > Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for > > the 40 $500. They can be ordered the same way as the book, as below: > > > > To reach Brent by mail, write to: > > > > 3798 Laurel Drive, > > Royston, British Columbia, > > Canada > > V0R-2V0 > > > > To order a copy of Brent's book > > "How to Build a Better Steel Boat > > -- a Heretic's Guide"� (illus.,100 > > pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 > > for postage to the above address. > > > > Brent's e-mail address is: > > brentswain38@... > > > > Good luck > > James > > > > --- On Sat, 1/21/12, raggedgentleman wrote: > > > > > > From: raggedgentleman > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hello, I'm new > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Saturday, January 21, 2012, 11:43 AM > > > > > > > > � > > > > > > > > Hey Guys, > > > > Just joined this group, seems like there is a wealth of knowledge here! > > My name is Chris, I live in Chicago, I am learning to weld, and want to > build a sailboat eventually. > > > > At first I was thinking of making a scaled down version. but I can't > find plans. > > > > So, I am looking for a recommendation/information on where to get plans > from. > > > > any leads would be much appreciated. I figured finding plans would be > the easy part =) but I am having a hard time. > > > > Thanks, > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27476|27476|2012-01-24 23:23:19|refugeridge|New Member, boat questions|Hello, I am considering building a sailboat for the first time. I am currently in Kentucky, but plan on keeping the boat in Charleston. I will be living on it eventually, but since I will be solo sailing I am worried about building one that is too big. One of the boats I am thinking about is the 31' swain, but I can't find much info on the boat design. I am wondering about beam, draft, loa, lwl, and keel options. I am sure I am probably over looking the information some where and and any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Becky| 27477|27424|2012-01-25 00:05:03|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Rod and Olin Stephens were some of the greatest designers of their time, and designed some of the best racing boats, in a time when a good racing boat was a good cruising boat, no longer the case. They also refused to design an ugly boat, regardless of it's intended purpose, and had some of the best eyes for aesthetics in the business. They were, no doubt, gold mines of great ideas. One doesn't involve oneself in so many boats without becoming one. The complexity of the materials they were forced to use was extremely challenging, and took a level of genius that modern materials like welded steel do not.Outside only steering was just not one of their good ideas.( sorta like a pickup truck which could only be steered from the open box.) I think a bit of cold water single handing would cure them of that error in judgement. The only people I have banned are those who use the site for non boat related consumer spam ,which has nothing to do with boats. The rest I just let rage on until they settle their differences. Banning ( like rolling the eyes) is an admission that you have no valid counter arguments to make. Who were my critics on those other sites? Pete Wiley who, after just beginning his first ever steel boat, with no cruising experience, suddenly began spouting advice, like he instantly knew far more than someone who has been building steel boats for over 4 decades, and cruised extensively for decades . Wynand the only guy on that site, besides me, who ever built many steel boats , who admitted his only cruising experience amounted to limited coastal cruising experience, who stated that three 5/16th shrouds ,pulling almost vertically, could crush a steel side deck on edge , inwards, without the shrouds breaking, who stated that 12 1/2 inches of 3/16th plate is not a strong as 3- 5/16th shrouds, who stated on that site that every cut must be thoroughly ground, then stated on another site a that a clean cut needs no grinding, who stated that he considered a wooden boat his first preference over steel for offshore cruising, who proudly declared that he is a racist? Troy , a cowboy who had no boating or boat building experience of his own( I welded up a lot of steel fence posts so I know all about steel boat building) Fitter welder Mike, who had only done what he was told in shipyards, having never built a small steel sailing craft of any kind, who is now heading out into the Fukashima Earthquake debris field in a plastic boat with neither frames nor floors, who tried to bad mouth Alex's boat down to scrap prices, to try force Alex to practically give it to him? Daniel, who claimed to be an engineer, but when asked for his qualifications here, had none to offer, who left out the 1.08 million pounds of tensile strength on each side of my twin keels, in the 8 ft of 3/16th plate, attaching them to the hull, in his calculations on keel strength. Others there who, when asked, had no small steel boat building or offshore cruising experience to admit to, who, when asked where I could see one of their small steel boats, or why I had never seen any of their designs , had nothing to say? Quite the collection of "EXPERTS" --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > Actually Brent I agree completely with what you say. However, using an example > from Rod Stephen's book, I can take some practical suggestions on the > construction and placement of hatches and dorade vents, building them as > Stephen's suggests from scratch instead of just buying whats out there. In > fact, most of the information and ideas in that manuscript that I find > interesting have to do with construction details. Fabricating the items you > need instead of buying them doesn't sound like, "The Way is is done" it sounds > more like what a certain "heretic" here advocates. "The Way it is done" is just > to buy whatever shit the marine industry is pushing and the one thing I truly > believe is that this site and the people here are dedicated to NOT doing that. > Building hatches from scratch and building dorades from scratch which are just > some of the things Stephen's suggests in the book have nothing to do with "The > Way it is done". > > I don't see why I and others shouldn't use some good technical info, such as how > tall to make dorade boxes for a given size of vent, how to size the pipes used > and how far they should extend in the box, anymore than say refusing to read > information Beta Marine came up with on sizing integral steel tanks for keel > cooling for different engine power levels. Is getting technical information > from a different yet also experienced source no longer allowed here? > > > I don't believe that what you're trying to say is "Hey, my way or the highway > here buddy", but it's unfortunately coming across that way to me. I know that > you have been repeatedly and viciously attacked by many others on different > forums for speaking your mind and going against "the commonly held wisdom". I > applaud you for your courage and admire your ability and willingness to share > just those ideas, I spent a good part of my career doing exactly the same, and > have suffered the slings and arrows too, so I am not one of those attackers. > However when you denigrate something you haven't read and urge others not to > read it either; you're just throwing the baby out with the bath water IMHO. I > think that this site and your philosophy is actually reflected in many of the > construction and fabrication ideas expressed in Stephen's book. I'm certain he > says a lot of things you disagree with. Hey, a lot of what I read I disagree > with myself, but allow me the courtesy of reading, understanding, and weighing > the merits of anyone's ideas myself without telling me what I can or can't do or > should or should not read. Fair? > > Norm Moore > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, January 23, 2012 11:52:05 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > No progress or advancement was ever made without going against the rules. The > "Way it is done" rules solidly block innovation, and thus progress. "The Way it > is done" has given us horrendously complex, expensive and labour intensive > boats, for the profits of those who sell and build them. Believing one can > continue to do things the same way, with a different outcome, is self delusion. > Such a course of action is strongly promoted by those who wish to maintain road > blocks in front of low income cruisers, in order to maintain the relevance of > their wealth > Dealing with the two greatest obstacles to most boaters cruising dreams, time > and money, can only be accomplished by thinking and doing things differently. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can see > > > > someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of > >below > > > > decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because > >Brent > > > > has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with > > many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came > >from > > > > a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can also > > > appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the > >engineers > > > > that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded > > once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in > > materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has > > money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might have > >a > > > > good idea once in awhile too. > > > > I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those > >without > > > > merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I > >necessarily > > > > must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have > >to > > > > say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced > >to > > > > take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote for > > > > the lesser of two evils. > > > > > > The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can > > expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on > > whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical world. > > > So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a > > solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of > >something > > > > as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed safely > > > without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of > > having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits > >up > > > > higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better > > visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit drains > > > so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may have > > > merit or not. > > > > > > We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal > > decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading > >someone's > > > > ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to > > assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know > > all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's > > ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads > > it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod > > Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn > > whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the > > guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people > > whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk > >assumptions > > > > about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone > > else here. > > > > > > One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often > > quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes far > > > > less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is a > > > > monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for a > > > juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I > > just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect > > anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what my > > > thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just > > make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or no > > > comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and > > their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for ourselves > > > > and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where > > knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to > >find > > > > them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm > > expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the ideas > > > of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do > > without the thought police please. > > > > Norm Moore > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: martin demers > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: normmoore@ > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens > > unfinished > > > > > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > > > safer. > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Kim > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > > > feasible or not. > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an > > > > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > > > boat. > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the > >idea > > > > > > > > might include the following: > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > > > board). > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly > > > > > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was > >cut > > > > > > > > out? > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the > > > > > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at > > > > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about > > > > > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above > > > > > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, > > > > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard > >could > > > > > > > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as > >the > > > > > > > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the > > > > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely > > > > > eliminated! > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27478|27448|2012-01-25 00:07:24|brentswain38|Re: Hello, I'm new|Aluminium is best for a small origami tender. The pattern for one is in my book. Jack Carson designed Paul and Doug's boats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "raggedgentleman" wrote: > > I see, Thanks for that. > > So, are you saying steel would not be the material to use to make a small tender type boat? > > Where did Doug and Paul get their plans for their boats? > > Thanks, > Chris > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, j fisher wrote: > > > > Plans for Brent's designs are available directly from him. while it sounds > > old fashioned, send him a check and he sends you the plans. Pretty simple > > and quicker than you think. > > Steel boats done scale down very well since you can not keep making the > > steel thinner as they get smaller. Once you get under about 25 ft, you > > need to consider other materials. > > > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 9:43 AM, raggedgentleman < > > christopherleefanning@> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Hey Guys, > > > > > > Just joined this group, seems like there is a wealth of knowledge here! > > > My name is Chris, I live in Chicago, I am learning to weld, and want to > > > build a sailboat eventually. > > > > > > At first I was thinking of making a scaled down version. but I can't find > > > plans. > > > > > > So, I am looking for a recommendation/information on where to get plans > > > from. > > > > > > any leads would be much appreciated. I figured finding plans would be the > > > easy part =) but I am having a hard time. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 27479|27476|2012-01-25 00:11:32|brentswain38|Re: New Member, boat questions|LOA 31 ft LWL 27 ft , Beam 10 ft . Draft 4 ft twin keels empty, 4ft 6 single keel. Options are single keel and long fin keel. You will find more in the files section and photos section. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "refugeridge" wrote: > > Hello, > I am considering building a sailboat for the first time. I am currently in Kentucky, but plan on keeping the boat in Charleston. I will be living on it eventually, but since I will be solo sailing I am worried about building one that is too big. One of the boats I am thinking about is the 31' swain, but I can't find much info on the boat design. I am wondering about beam, draft, loa, lwl, and keel options. I am sure I am probably over looking the information some where and and any help would be appreciated. > Thanks, > Becky > | 27480|27424|2012-01-25 01:20:20|Kim|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Thanks for the info Brent. Sounds like my 26-footer will be the "strongest" boat I've ever owned! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > No, I don't think it would have affected the structural integrity. > Steel boats of this size are so enormously over strength that such concerns are a moot point anyway. They simply done break. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > Giuseppe, Matt, Norm, Tom and Brent ... > > > > Thanks for your responses to my "open transom" question. > > > > As I mentioned in my original email, I've never been in an open-transom boat; but based on your comments it sounds as though it's not a particularly good idea. So I'll leave the transom on my boat as it is, as designed. > > > > Another reason that the open transom idea appealed to me is this: I'm getting old fast. Too fast. I'm no longer able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. I assumed that an open transom would make it much easier and safer to get in and out of a dinghy, and that seemed like a good thing. But even if that's true, it sounds like other disadvantages of an open transom far outweigh any advantages. > > > > At any rate, I'll use some other means to hide the panel distortion in the bit of the transom that I was going to cut out, and I'm sure any dinghy access issues can be resolved by other means too. > > > > Brent: Just as a matter of curiosity, if I had cut out a bit of the transom to make it a walk-through type (http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom), would that have adversely affected the structural integrity of the boat in any way? > > > > Thanks again! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > ________________________________________________ | 27481|27481|2012-01-25 05:06:19|P-O Gustafsson|Quotes|Would you please consider editing the quotes before posting answers. Apart from the obvious misuse of bandwidth, it's getting increasingly difficult to read the list. I have chosen to receive daily digests of the posts and lately 90% has been quotes of quotes of quotes..... I would hate to sign off this list just because it gets too time consuming to wade through all unnecessary text. I believe searching the archives would be easier too. A simple way to avoid it is to change your mail programs (for those using them and not reading online) to start answer below quotes. Then they would see the quotes and can delete/edit what is not necessary. It's no big deal, just mark what's not needed and hit delete button before posting.| 27482|27481|2012-01-25 09:45:56|Maxime Camirand|Re: Quotes|I used to find the daily digest totally unreadable for this reason. It will never change (sorry). The only solution I found has been to choose to receive individual emails instead, and apply a filter (easy to do) that sends all of those emails to a separate folder, so as not to clog my inbox. This works very well for Gmail, too, with filters and labels. Emails automatically get grouped by conversation. Regards, Max [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27483|27424|2012-01-25 13:04:09|Norm Moore|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Thanks Brent, I appreciate getting some of the ground rules. I didn't think (hoped?) that just suggesting reading would get me banned. My wife suggested I have Irritable Male Syndrome and there may be some truth to that. I'll get off the soap box now. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, January 24, 2012 9:05:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Rod and Olin Stephens were some of the greatest designers of their time, and designed some of the best racing boats, in a time when a good racing boat was a good cruising boat, no longer the case. They also refused to design an ugly boat, regardless of it's intended purpose, and had some of the best eyes for aesthetics in the business. They were, no doubt, gold mines of great ideas. One doesn't involve oneself in so many boats without becoming one. The complexity of the materials they were forced to use was extremely challenging, and took a level of genius that modern materials like welded steel do not.Outside only steering was just not one of their good ideas.( sorta like a pickup truck which could only be steered from the open box.) I think a bit of cold water single handing would cure them of that error in judgement. The only people I have banned are those who use the site for non boat related consumer spam ,which has nothing to do with boats. The rest I just let rage on until they settle their differences. Banning ( like rolling the eyes) is an admission that you have no valid counter arguments to make. Who were my critics on those other sites? Pete Wiley who, after just beginning his first ever steel boat, with no cruising experience, suddenly began spouting advice, like he instantly knew far more than someone who has been building steel boats for over 4 decades, and cruised extensively for decades . Wynand the only guy on that site, besides me, who ever built many steel boats , who admitted his only cruising experience amounted to limited coastal cruising experience, who stated that three 5/16th shrouds ,pulling almost vertically, could crush a steel side deck on edge , inwards, without the shrouds breaking, who stated that 12 1/2 inches of 3/16th plate is not a strong as 3- 5/16th shrouds, who stated on that site that every cut must be thoroughly ground, then stated on another site a that a clean cut needs no grinding, who stated that he considered a wooden boat his first preference over steel for offshore cruising, who proudly declared that he is a racist? Troy , a cowboy who had no boating or boat building experience of his own( I welded up a lot of steel fence posts so I know all about steel boat building) Fitter welder Mike, who had only done what he was told in shipyards, having never built a small steel sailing craft of any kind, who is now heading out into the Fukashima Earthquake debris field in a plastic boat with neither frames nor floors, who tried to bad mouth Alex's boat down to scrap prices, to try force Alex to practically give it to him? Daniel, who claimed to be an engineer, but when asked for his qualifications here, had none to offer, who left out the 1.08 million pounds of tensile strength on each side of my twin keels, in the 8 ft of 3/16th plate, attaching them to the hull, in his calculations on keel strength. Others there who, when asked, had no small steel boat building or offshore cruising experience to admit to, who, when asked where I could see one of their small steel boats, or why I had never seen any of their designs , had nothing to say? Quite the collection of "EXPERTS" --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > Actually Brent I agree completely with what you say. However, using an example > > from Rod Stephen's book, I can take some practical suggestions on the > construction and placement of hatches and dorade vents, building them as > Stephen's suggests from scratch instead of just buying whats out there. In > fact, most of the information and ideas in that manuscript that I find > interesting have to do with construction details. Fabricating the items you > need instead of buying them doesn't sound like, "The Way is is done" it sounds > more like what a certain "heretic" here advocates. "The Way it is done" is >just > > to buy whatever shit the marine industry is pushing and the one thing I truly > believe is that this site and the people here are dedicated to NOT doing that. > Building hatches from scratch and building dorades from scratch which are just > some of the things Stephen's suggests in the book have nothing to do with "The > > Way it is done". > > I don't see why I and others shouldn't use some good technical info, such as >how > > tall to make dorade boxes for a given size of vent, how to size the pipes used > and how far they should extend in the box, anymore than say refusing to read > information Beta Marine came up with on sizing integral steel tanks for keel > cooling for different engine power levels. Is getting technical information > from a different yet also experienced source no longer allowed here? > > > I don't believe that what you're trying to say is "Hey, my way or the highway > here buddy", but it's unfortunately coming across that way to me. I know that > you have been repeatedly and viciously attacked by many others on different > forums for speaking your mind and going against "the commonly held wisdom". I > applaud you for your courage and admire your ability and willingness to share > just those ideas, I spent a good part of my career doing exactly the same, and > > have suffered the slings and arrows too, so I am not one of those attackers. > However when you denigrate something you haven't read and urge others not to > read it either; you're just throwing the baby out with the bath water IMHO. I > > think that this site and your philosophy is actually reflected in many of the > construction and fabrication ideas expressed in Stephen's book. I'm certain he > > says a lot of things you disagree with. Hey, a lot of what I read I disagree > with myself, but allow me the courtesy of reading, understanding, and weighing > the merits of anyone's ideas myself without telling me what I can or can't do >or > > should or should not read. Fair? > > Norm Moore > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, January 23, 2012 11:52:05 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > No progress or advancement was ever made without going against the rules. The > "Way it is done" rules solidly block innovation, and thus progress. "The Way >it > > is done" has given us horrendously complex, expensive and labour intensive > boats, for the profits of those who sell and build them. Believing one can > continue to do things the same way, with a different outcome, is self >delusion. > > Such a course of action is strongly promoted by those who wish to maintain road > > blocks in front of low income cruisers, in order to maintain the relevance of > their wealth > Dealing with the two greatest obstacles to most boaters cruising dreams, time > and money, can only be accomplished by thinking and doing things differently. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can >see > > > > > someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of > >below > > > > decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because > >Brent > > > > has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with > > > many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came > >from > > > > a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can >also > > > > appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the > >engineers > > > > that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded > > > once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in > > materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has > > money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might >have > > >a > > > > good idea once in awhile too. > > > > I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those > >without > > > > merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I > >necessarily > > > > must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have > > >to > > > > say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced > > >to > > > > take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote >for > > > > > the lesser of two evils. > > > > > > The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can > > > expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on > > whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical >world. > > > > So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a > > solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of > >something > > > > as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed >safely > > > > without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of > > > having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits > > >up > > > > higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better > > > visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit >drains > > > > so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may >have > > > > merit or not. > > > > > > We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal > > decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading > >someone's > > > > ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to > > > assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know > > > all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's > > ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads > > > it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod > > Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn > > whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the > > > guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people > > whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk > >assumptions > > > > about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone > > else here. > > > > > > One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often > > quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes >far > > > > > less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is >a > > > > > monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for >a > > > > juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I > > > just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect > > anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what >my > > > > thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just > > > make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or >no > > > > comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and > > > their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for >ourselves > > > > > and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where > > knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to > >find > > > > them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm > > expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the >ideas > > > > of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do > > without the thought police please. > > > > Norm Moore > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: martin demers > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain >26? > > > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: normmoore@ > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain >26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens > > unfinished > > > > > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > > > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > > > > safer. > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Kim > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > > > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > > > feasible or not. > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it >an > > > > > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > > > boat. > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in >any > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > > > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the > >idea > > > > > > > > might include the following: > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > > > board). > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy >(particularly > > > > > > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > > > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was > >cut > > > > > > > > out? > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between >the > > > > > > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be >at > > > > > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them >about > > > > > > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance >above > > > > > > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a >wind-vane, > > > > > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard > >could > > > > > > > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > > > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as > >the > > > > > > > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > > > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at >the > > > > > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is >completely > > > > > > eliminated! > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27484|27476|2012-01-25 14:41:56|refugeridge|Re: New Member, boat questions|Thanks, I looked in the files, but I had to go to work, so I didn't have a chance to search as long as I would have. Becky --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > LOA 31 ft LWL 27 ft , Beam 10 ft . Draft 4 ft twin keels empty, 4ft 6 single keel. > Options are single keel and long fin keel. > You will find more in the files section and photos section. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "refugeridge" wrote: > > > > Hello, > > I am considering building a sailboat for the first time. I am currently in Kentucky, but plan on keeping the boat in Charleston. I will be living on it eventually, but since I will be solo sailing I am worried about building one that is too big. One of the boats I am thinking about is the 31' swain, but I can't find much info on the boat design. I am wondering about beam, draft, loa, lwl, and keel options. I am sure I am probably over looking the information some where and and any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Becky > > > | 27485|27485|2012-01-27 05:49:59|Ted|Best way to run electric and sgnal cables through the deck|Hi All, Getting closer to finishing and soon will be drilling holes through the deck to run cables through. Any advice such as cable glands or welded in pipe elbows sealed with mastic would be much appreciated. Best regards, Ted| 27486|27485|2012-01-27 14:55:51|Paul Wilson|Re: Best way to run electric and sgnal cables through the deck|I use a short standpipe sticking up and then run the cable through using lots of rubber tape and a soft mastic sealant like butyl. Using a soft sealant allows it to be taken apart later if you need to change something. I found the cable glands that are available leak and are a waste of money. Cheers, Paul On 27/01/2012 11:49 p.m., Ted wrote: > > Hi All, > > Getting closer to finishing and soon will be drilling holes through > the deck to run cables through. Any advice such as cable glands or > welded in pipe elbows sealed with mastic would be much appreciated. > > Best regards, > > Ted > > | 27487|27424|2012-01-27 17:20:17|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|I'm happy to debate any issue or question here, where response is possible. I've never limited technical debates anywhere. What I do object to is someone trying to sneak disinfomation from liars, in thru the back door, where there is no opportunity to debate or respond to the decrees that are being made. Michael Kasten's abysmally naive comments are a good example. His site offers no place for comment or questioning the decrees he makes, unlike this site. What is he afraid of ? The truth? When he first stated that origami methods are only useable for hulls, and can't be used for decks cabin keels rudders and skegs , he was just being willfully foolish.He was choosing to comment on a building method while deliberately not reading my book , nor this site and the information on it, in other words while deliberately choosing to remain abysmally ignorant of the subject at hand. When I pointed out to him that we have been using origami methods for cabins, decks, rudders, keels and skegs from the first origami boat I built, since 1980 , and my book shows this being done, he refused to change the disinformation on his website , at that point he became a deliberate, willfully bare faced liar. He has deliberately tried to mislead boat builders, in ways that will cost them a lot of wasted time and money,to keep his own outdated methods relevant, for fun and profit. When he states that the possible origami hull shapes are extremely limited, while anyone can see the origami multi chine hulls which Greg designs, a huge variation from my single chine designs, something he knows full well makes him a deliberate liar, he continues to promote the lie. . Would it be wise to get your design information from someone who has willfully chosen to be totally ignorant of the subject at hand and has since proven to be a barefaced liar? I think not. In fact I would treat anything he has to say from that point on as suspect. Alex set up this site for the benefit of us all, at no particular benefit to himself, at the time . Twice people have used this site to attack Alex's interests , using his own effort to help us, against him. If someone tries that with me, the gloves come off, and I wouldn't rule any reasonable response out. Such back stabbing cowardice has no place on this site. Will I "be nice" and take it lying down , while some lying bastard is trying to con people into wasting huge amounts of time and money, using his outdated building methods, so he, conveniently, doesn't have to think outside the box? Not a chance! You have a point to debate , bring it to the discussion, where we can all comment on it, don't try sneak it in the back door. I'd be happy to debate Kasten here, in an open debate, but don't try sneak his lying decrees in thru the back door. Who is Michael Kasten? How many steel boats has he built with his own hands? How many times has he sailed them across oceans , or maintained the same boat over several decades? How may dozen of his designs have been built and done major ocean voyages , or circumnavigated? Why, despite my having cruised BC, near his homeland, for 40 years, have I never seen a boat identified as a Kasten Design? Best ask him those questions, before buying his sales pitch. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > Actually Brent I agree completely with what you say. However, using an example > from Rod Stephen's book, I can take some practical suggestions on the > construction and placement of hatches and dorade vents, building them as > Stephen's suggests from scratch instead of just buying whats out there. In > fact, most of the information and ideas in that manuscript that I find > interesting have to do with construction details. Fabricating the items you > need instead of buying them doesn't sound like, "The Way is is done" it sounds > more like what a certain "heretic" here advocates. "The Way it is done" is just > to buy whatever shit the marine industry is pushing and the one thing I truly > believe is that this site and the people here are dedicated to NOT doing that. > Building hatches from scratch and building dorades from scratch which are just > some of the things Stephen's suggests in the book have nothing to do with "The > Way it is done". > > I don't see why I and others shouldn't use some good technical info, such as how > tall to make dorade boxes for a given size of vent, how to size the pipes used > and how far they should extend in the box, anymore than say refusing to read > information Beta Marine came up with on sizing integral steel tanks for keel > cooling for different engine power levels. Is getting technical information > from a different yet also experienced source no longer allowed here? > > > I don't believe that what you're trying to say is "Hey, my way or the highway > here buddy", but it's unfortunately coming across that way to me. I know that > you have been repeatedly and viciously attacked by many others on different > forums for speaking your mind and going against "the commonly held wisdom". I > applaud you for your courage and admire your ability and willingness to share > just those ideas, I spent a good part of my career doing exactly the same, and > have suffered the slings and arrows too, so I am not one of those attackers. > However when you denigrate something you haven't read and urge others not to > read it either; you're just throwing the baby out with the bath water IMHO. I > think that this site and your philosophy is actually reflected in many of the > construction and fabrication ideas expressed in Stephen's book. I'm certain he > says a lot of things you disagree with. Hey, a lot of what I read I disagree > with myself, but allow me the courtesy of reading, understanding, and weighing > the merits of anyone's ideas myself without telling me what I can or can't do or > should or should not read. Fair? > > Norm Moore > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, January 23, 2012 11:52:05 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > No progress or advancement was ever made without going against the rules. The > "Way it is done" rules solidly block innovation, and thus progress. "The Way it > is done" has given us horrendously complex, expensive and labour intensive > boats, for the profits of those who sell and build them. Believing one can > continue to do things the same way, with a different outcome, is self delusion. > Such a course of action is strongly promoted by those who wish to maintain road > blocks in front of low income cruisers, in order to maintain the relevance of > their wealth > Dealing with the two greatest obstacles to most boaters cruising dreams, time > and money, can only be accomplished by thinking and doing things differently. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can see > > > > someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of > >below > > > > decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because > >Brent > > > > has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with > > many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came > >from > > > > a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can also > > > appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the > >engineers > > > > that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded > > once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in > > materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has > > money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might have > >a > > > > good idea once in awhile too. > > > > I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those > >without > > > > merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I > >necessarily > > > > must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have > >to > > > > say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced > >to > > > > take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote for > > > > the lesser of two evils. > > > > > > The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can > > expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on > > whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical world. > > > So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a > > solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of > >something > > > > as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed safely > > > without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of > > having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits > >up > > > > higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better > > visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit drains > > > so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may have > > > merit or not. > > > > > > We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal > > decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading > >someone's > > > > ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to > > assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know > > all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's > > ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads > > it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod > > Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn > > whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the > > guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people > > whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk > >assumptions > > > > about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone > > else here. > > > > > > One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often > > quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes far > > > > less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is a > > > > monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for a > > > juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I > > just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect > > anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what my > > > thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just > > make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or no > > > comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and > > their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for ourselves > > > > and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where > > knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to > >find > > > > them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm > > expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the ideas > > > of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do > > without the thought police please. > > > > Norm Moore > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: martin demers > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: normmoore@ > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens > > unfinished > > > > > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > > > safer. > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Kim > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > > > feasible or not. > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an > > > > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > > > boat. > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the > >idea > > > > > > > > might include the following: > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > > > board). > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly > > > > > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was > >cut > > > > > > > > out? > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the > > > > > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at > > > > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about > > > > > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above > > > > > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, > > > > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard > >could > > > > > > > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as > >the > > > > > > > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the > > > > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely > > > > > eliminated! > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27488|27485|2012-01-27 23:06:18|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Best way to run electric and sgnal cables through the deck|Ted, I’d weld half couplings on the deck and install black plastic weatherproof strain relief fittings sized for each cable. I have used these connectors to install cords inside of hoses, then run them at 250 psi without leaks for a period of nearly 17 years! They are real cheap, a couple of bucks each at McMaster Carr, and hold up extremely well in direct sunlight. I’d also put a terminal strip under the mast to connect the cables to interior wiring. I’d install the terminal strip in a location where it is impossible for water to drip on it. Gary H. Lucas From: Ted Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 5:49 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Best way to run electric and sgnal cables through the deck Hi All, Getting closer to finishing and soon will be drilling holes through the deck to run cables through. Any advice such as cable glands or welded in pipe elbows sealed with mastic would be much appreciated. Best regards, Ted Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27489|27424|2012-01-28 14:41:27|wild_explorer|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Brent, unfortunately in most cases, business these days has (in any industry) has nothing to do what people NEED, but focus on what people "WANT". It is very hard to sell someone something different, if person knows EXACTLY what it needs. So, approach "You need this! You need that!" is just a marketing technique. How company will sell the product if it admits that another company's product is better??? The same is when company has good product, but cannot claim much new in "This year model". Gladly for this group, you stick to your original design and avoid alterations. As you may remember, I had lot of ideas when I joined this group. Over the time, thinking what I really need, I found that at least 80% of these ideas will not make any difference for me. "Necessary" and "Nice to have" make big difference. I will focus on "Necessary" and skip "Nice to have" at this time. I agree that in most cases it is better to ask opinion from people who use the product and rely on it in every day (like fishermen for boats or cruisers/live_aboards for sailboats). They may have VERY DIFFERENT point of view than "pleasure boat user"....| 27490|14263|2012-01-28 17:02:17|ben@linuxgazette.net|Test|Sorry, folks - having mail problems and testing the link. Please ignore. -- Ben| 27491|14263|2012-01-28 17:11:00|lf|Test|Hi, all - Some members are having a problem with their emails not being posted (without even a bounce message.) If you're having this problem, please email me; I'm trying to gather enough data to troubleshoot. Thanks! -- Ben| 27492|27485|2012-01-28 18:35:34|brentswain38|Re: Best way to run electric and sgnal cables through the deck|I've welded two 90 degree ss pipe nipples together where wires exit my deck, to make a 180, so the inlet for the wire is pointed downhill. That way, water following the wire would have to flow uphill to enter the boat. It simply drips off the low end of the wire loop. I weld these into the deck. Works well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Ted, > I’d weld half couplings on the deck and install black plastic weatherproof strain relief fittings sized for each cable. I have used these connectors to install cords inside of hoses, then run them at 250 psi without leaks for a period of nearly 17 years! They are real cheap, a couple of bucks each at McMaster Carr, and hold up extremely well in direct sunlight. I’d also put a terminal strip under the mast to connect the cables to interior wiring. I’d install the terminal strip in a location where it is impossible for water to drip on it. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > From: Ted > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 5:49 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Best way to run electric and sgnal cables through the deck > > > Hi All, > > Getting closer to finishing and soon will be drilling holes through the deck to run cables through. Any advice such as cable glands or welded in pipe elbows sealed with mastic would be much appreciated. > > Best regards, > > Ted > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27493|27424|2012-01-28 18:57:21|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|When I see people heading out on their first offshore voyage, they tend to have "Yachtie " priorities, having got most of their advice from salesmen, selling yachtie gear. It was definitely the case with me. After a few thousand miles of offshore cruising, and hanging out in commercial , industrial ports, with none of the conveniences, and pampered protection of an urban marina, their priorities shift from "Yachtie , Trendy ,style over substance" to "work boat" priorities. That was also, definitely the case with me. When the round the world racers stop in port, local Yachties are astounded by how "Industrial" and "Commercial " the boats and their gear look. That is the only kind of gear that will survive the punishment it takes in that kind of use. Mother nature doesn't give a rat's ass how shiny ,pretty and stylish it is, just how strong it is. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, unfortunately in most cases, business these days has (in any industry) has nothing to do what people NEED, but focus on what people "WANT". It is very hard to sell someone something different, if person knows EXACTLY what it needs. So, approach "You need this! You need that!" is just a marketing technique. > How company will sell the product if it admits that another company's product is better??? The same is when company has good product, but cannot claim much new in "This year model". > > Gladly for this group, you stick to your original design and avoid alterations. As you may remember, I had lot of ideas when I joined this group. Over the time, thinking what I really need, I found that at least 80% of these ideas will not make any difference for me. "Necessary" and "Nice to have" make big difference. I will focus on "Necessary" and skip "Nice to have" at this time. > > I agree that in most cases it is better to ask opinion from people who use the product and rely on it in every day (like fishermen for boats or cruisers/live_aboards for sailboats). They may have VERY DIFFERENT point of view than "pleasure boat user".... > | 27494|27424|2012-01-28 19:03:45|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Arctic Husky emailed me some hate mail over this post, then cowardly blocked my response. So here is my response. I'd have no problem with Kasten, if he would simply correct the deliberate lies on his website, to reflect the reality he has been informed of. I wont sit idly by while people are being lied to in ways that will needlessly cost them time, money, and results. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'm happy to debate any issue or question here, where response is possible. I've never limited technical debates anywhere. What I do object to is someone trying to sneak disinfomation from liars, in thru the back door, where there is no opportunity to debate or respond to the decrees that are being made. > Michael Kasten's abysmally naive comments are a good example. > His site offers no place for comment or questioning the decrees he makes, unlike this site. What is he afraid of ? The truth? > When he first stated that origami methods are only useable for hulls, and can't be used for decks cabin keels rudders and skegs , he was just being willfully foolish.He was choosing to comment on a building method while deliberately not reading my book , nor this site and the information on it, in other words while deliberately choosing to remain abysmally ignorant of the subject at hand. When I pointed out to him that we have been using origami methods for cabins, decks, rudders, keels and skegs from the first origami boat I built, since 1980 , and my book shows this being done, he refused to change the disinformation on his website , at that point he became a deliberate, willfully bare faced liar. He has deliberately tried to mislead boat builders, in ways that will cost them a lot of wasted time and money,to keep his own outdated methods relevant, for fun and profit. > When he states that the possible origami hull shapes are extremely limited, while anyone can see the origami multi chine hulls which Greg designs, a huge variation from my single chine designs, something he knows full well makes him a deliberate liar, he continues to promote the lie. . > Would it be wise to get your design information from someone who has willfully chosen to be totally ignorant of the subject at hand and has since proven to be a barefaced liar? I think not. In fact I would treat anything he has to say from that point on as suspect. > Alex set up this site for the benefit of us all, at no particular benefit to himself, at the time . Twice people have used this site to attack Alex's interests , using his own effort to help us, against him. > If someone tries that with me, the gloves come off, and I wouldn't rule any reasonable response out. Such back stabbing cowardice has no place on this site. Will I "be nice" and take it lying down , while some lying bastard is trying to con people into wasting huge amounts of time and money, using his outdated building methods, so he, conveniently, doesn't have to think outside the box? Not a chance! > You have a point to debate , bring it to the discussion, where we can all comment on it, don't try sneak it in the back door. I'd be happy to debate Kasten here, in an open debate, but don't try sneak his lying decrees in thru the back door. > Who is Michael Kasten? How many steel boats has he built with his own hands? How many times has he sailed them across oceans , or maintained the same boat over several decades? How may dozen of his designs have been built and done major ocean voyages , or circumnavigated? Why, despite my having cruised BC, near his homeland, for 40 years, have I never seen a boat identified as a Kasten Design? > Best ask him those questions, before buying his sales pitch. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > Actually Brent I agree completely with what you say. However, using an example > > from Rod Stephen's book, I can take some practical suggestions on the > > construction and placement of hatches and dorade vents, building them as > > Stephen's suggests from scratch instead of just buying whats out there. In > > fact, most of the information and ideas in that manuscript that I find > > interesting have to do with construction details. Fabricating the items you > > need instead of buying them doesn't sound like, "The Way is is done" it sounds > > more like what a certain "heretic" here advocates. "The Way it is done" is just > > to buy whatever shit the marine industry is pushing and the one thing I truly > > believe is that this site and the people here are dedicated to NOT doing that. > > Building hatches from scratch and building dorades from scratch which are just > > some of the things Stephen's suggests in the book have nothing to do with "The > > Way it is done". > > > > I don't see why I and others shouldn't use some good technical info, such as how > > tall to make dorade boxes for a given size of vent, how to size the pipes used > > and how far they should extend in the box, anymore than say refusing to read > > information Beta Marine came up with on sizing integral steel tanks for keel > > cooling for different engine power levels. Is getting technical information > > from a different yet also experienced source no longer allowed here? > > > > > > I don't believe that what you're trying to say is "Hey, my way or the highway > > here buddy", but it's unfortunately coming across that way to me. I know that > > you have been repeatedly and viciously attacked by many others on different > > forums for speaking your mind and going against "the commonly held wisdom". I > > applaud you for your courage and admire your ability and willingness to share > > just those ideas, I spent a good part of my career doing exactly the same, and > > have suffered the slings and arrows too, so I am not one of those attackers. > > However when you denigrate something you haven't read and urge others not to > > read it either; you're just throwing the baby out with the bath water IMHO. I > > think that this site and your philosophy is actually reflected in many of the > > construction and fabrication ideas expressed in Stephen's book. I'm certain he > > says a lot of things you disagree with. Hey, a lot of what I read I disagree > > with myself, but allow me the courtesy of reading, understanding, and weighing > > the merits of anyone's ideas myself without telling me what I can or can't do or > > should or should not read. Fair? > > > > Norm Moore > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, January 23, 2012 11:52:05 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > No progress or advancement was ever made without going against the rules. The > > "Way it is done" rules solidly block innovation, and thus progress. "The Way it > > is done" has given us horrendously complex, expensive and labour intensive > > boats, for the profits of those who sell and build them. Believing one can > > continue to do things the same way, with a different outcome, is self delusion. > > Such a course of action is strongly promoted by those who wish to maintain road > > blocks in front of low income cruisers, in order to maintain the relevance of > > their wealth > > Dealing with the two greatest obstacles to most boaters cruising dreams, time > > and money, can only be accomplished by thinking and doing things differently. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > > > I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can see > > > > > > someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of > > >below > > > > > > decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because > > >Brent > > > > > > has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with > > > many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came > > >from > > > > > > a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can also > > > > > appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the > > >engineers > > > > > > that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded > > > once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in > > > materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has > > > money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might have > > >a > > > > > > good idea once in awhile too. > > > > > > I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those > > >without > > > > > > merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I > > >necessarily > > > > > > must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have > > >to > > > > > > say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced > > >to > > > > > > take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote for > > > > > > the lesser of two evils. > > > > > > > > > The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can > > > expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on > > > whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical world. > > > > > So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a > > > solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of > > >something > > > > > > as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed safely > > > > > without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of > > > having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits > > >up > > > > > > higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better > > > visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit drains > > > > > so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may have > > > > > merit or not. > > > > > > > > > We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal > > > decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading > > >someone's > > > > > > ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to > > > assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know > > > all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's > > > ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads > > > it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod > > > Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn > > > whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the > > > guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people > > > whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk > > >assumptions > > > > > > about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone > > > else here. > > > > > > > > > One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often > > > quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes far > > > > > > less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is a > > > > > > monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for a > > > > > juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I > > > just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect > > > anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what my > > > > > thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just > > > make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or no > > > > > comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and > > > their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for ourselves > > > > > > and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where > > > knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to > > >find > > > > > > them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm > > > expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the ideas > > > > > of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do > > > without the thought police please. > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: martin demers > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: normmoore@ > > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens > > > unfinished > > > > > > > > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > > > > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > > > > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > > > > > safer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Kim > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > > > > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > > > > > feasible or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an > > > > > > > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > > > > > boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any > > > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > > > > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > > > > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the > > >idea > > > > > > > > > > > > might include the following: > > > > > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > > > > > board). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly > > > > > > > > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > > > > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was > > >cut > > > > > > > > > > > > out? > > > > > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the > > > > > > > > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at > > > > > > > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about > > > > > > > > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above > > > > > > > > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, > > > > > > > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard > > >could > > > > > > > > > > > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > > > > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as > > >the > > > > > > > > > > > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > > > > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > > > > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the > > > > > > > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > > > > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely > > > > > > > > eliminated! > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > > > > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 27495|27424|2012-01-28 19:08:08|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Work boat priorities also drastically reduce the worry and stress level of ones cruising experiences. As it is called "Pleasure boating" for a good reason, this drastically improves the efficiency in accomplishing what the boat is for, pleasure. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > When I see people heading out on their first offshore voyage, they tend to have "Yachtie " priorities, having got most of their advice from salesmen, selling yachtie gear. It was definitely the case with me. > After a few thousand miles of offshore cruising, and hanging out in commercial , industrial ports, with none of the conveniences, and pampered protection of an urban marina, their priorities shift from "Yachtie , Trendy ,style over substance" to "work boat" priorities. That was also, definitely the case with me. > When the round the world racers stop in port, local Yachties are astounded by how "Industrial" and "Commercial " the boats and their gear look. > That is the only kind of gear that will survive the punishment it takes in that kind of use. Mother nature doesn't give a rat's ass how shiny ,pretty and stylish it is, just how strong it is. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Brent, unfortunately in most cases, business these days has (in any industry) has nothing to do what people NEED, but focus on what people "WANT". It is very hard to sell someone something different, if person knows EXACTLY what it needs. So, approach "You need this! You need that!" is just a marketing technique. > > How company will sell the product if it admits that another company's product is better??? The same is when company has good product, but cannot claim much new in "This year model". > > > > Gladly for this group, you stick to your original design and avoid alterations. As you may remember, I had lot of ideas when I joined this group. Over the time, thinking what I really need, I found that at least 80% of these ideas will not make any difference for me. "Necessary" and "Nice to have" make big difference. I will focus on "Necessary" and skip "Nice to have" at this time. > > > > I agree that in most cases it is better to ask opinion from people who use the product and rely on it in every day (like fishermen for boats or cruisers/live_aboards for sailboats). They may have VERY DIFFERENT point of view than "pleasure boat user".... > > > | 27496|27496|2012-01-28 19:32:37|brentswain38|C-head|Looks like someone has started building the composting head for a more reasonable price, a fraction the cost of an Airhead or Natures head. Do a search under C-Head. It has a much smaller capacity, but they sell components, so you can buy the separator seat and build the rest yourself .| 27497|14263|2012-01-28 19:46:56|Denis Buggy|Re: Test|BEN GUESS WHO HAS DIFFICULTY WITH THEIR POSTS -- SURPRISE SURPRISE -- YOUR FAVOURITE TROLL TROLL TROLL --WHATEVER THAT MEANS -- DENIS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27498|14263|2012-01-29 09:16:51|Ben Okopnik|Re: Test|On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:47:08AM -0000, Denis Buggy wrote: > BEN > GUESS WHO HAS DIFFICULTY WITH THEIR POSTS -- SURPRISE SURPRISE -- YOUR FAVOURITE TROLL TROLL TROLL --WHATEVER THAT MEANS -- DENIS I don't have an Incomprehensible Drivel to English dictionary, but I *think* DENIS is saying he's having trouble. I'll check his account out along with the others, just in case. At the moment, it looks like Yahoo's recent anti-spam measure - which has knocked several thousand legit users off, but which Yahoo justifies as "but it's blocked millions of spam messages!" - is what's causing the problem. If so, then I won't be able to do anything until they fix it. All I can suggest is adding an alternate email to your account, posting from it, and hoping that will get through... that's just a guess, though. Sorry I can't be more helpful, folks; it's just not possible to figure out exactly what Yahoo is doing behind the curtain. Meanwhile, I'll keep looking into it. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27499|27499|2012-01-29 12:39:51|Ben Okopnik|Re: test|Hi again, all - I've managed to work out two methods for restoring account access that seem to work. Again, this applies to those folks whose messages have been failing to post lately; if your messages are posting, then you don't need to worry about this. 1) If you have an alternate email address, just join the group using that address and post from it. No muss, no fuss, no greasy aftertaste. 2) If you do not have an alternate address, I can delete you as a member of origamiboats and re-invite you. This appears to work fine, but deleting anyone's membership here is not something I'm going to do without an explicit request. Therefore, if you are having trouble posting, please email me directly at ben@... and request to be deleted and reinvited. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27500|22|2012-01-29 14:18:42|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /MAIB Reports (Norm Moore)/MAIB_SV_Ouzo.pdf Uploaded by : pectus_roboreus1 Description : MAIB report on the loss of S/V Ouzo You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/MAIB%20Reports%20%28Norm%20Moore%29/MAIB_SV_Ouzo.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, pectus_roboreus1 | 27501|22|2012-01-29 14:19:30|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /MAIB Reports (Norm Moore)/MAIB_Vespucci_and_Wahkuna.pdf Uploaded by : pectus_roboreus1 Description : MAIB Report - collision of Vespucci and Wahkuna You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/MAIB%20Reports%20%28Norm%20Moore%29/MAIB_Vespucci_and_Wahkuna.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, pectus_roboreus1 | 27502|14263|2012-01-29 14:26:09|martin demers|Re: Test|Hi Ben, I think it is the right thread to ask this question That I have for a long time Is it normal or only a coincidence to receive post from a group all at the same time(I am member of many yahoo groups) whithin a few minutes between each other Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:16:48 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Test On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:47:08AM -0000, Denis Buggy wrote: > BEN > GUESS WHO HAS DIFFICULTY WITH THEIR POSTS -- SURPRISE SURPRISE -- YOUR FAVOURITE TROLL TROLL TROLL --WHATEVER THAT MEANS -- DENIS I don't have an Incomprehensible Drivel to English dictionary, but I *think* DENIS is saying he's having trouble. I'll check his account out along with the others, just in case. At the moment, it looks like Yahoo's recent anti-spam measure - which has knocked several thousand legit users off, but which Yahoo justifies as "but it's blocked millions of spam messages!" - is what's causing the problem. If so, then I won't be able to do anything until they fix it. All I can suggest is adding an alternate email to your account, posting from it, and hoping that will get through... that's just a guess, though. Sorry I can't be more helpful, folks; it's just not possible to figure out exactly what Yahoo is doing behind the curtain. Meanwhile, I'll keep looking into it. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27503|14263|2012-01-29 14:35:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Test|Hi, Martin - On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 02:26:08PM -0500, martin demers wrote: > Hi Ben, > > I think it is the right thread to ask this question That I have for a long time > Is it normal or only a coincidence to receive post from a group all at > the same time(I am member of many yahoo groups) whithin a few minutes > between each other I'd say it's normal, for a number of reasons. Yahoo's mail servers may be acting wonky - that happens a good bit - and only spit out their accumulated mail in bursts; your ISP's mail servers may be overloaded and delivering mail the same way, etc. Unless you're a nit-picky system administrator like me :), none of the above is anything to worry about. As long as you're not losing mail, it's all cool. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik | 27504|14263|2012-01-29 14:51:26|martin demers|Re: Test|Ok thanks for the info To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:35:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Test Hi, Martin - On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 02:26:08PM -0500, martin demers wrote: > Hi Ben, > > I think it is the right thread to ask this question That I have for a long time > Is it normal or only a coincidence to receive post from a group all at > the same time(I am member of many yahoo groups) whithin a few minutes > between each other I'd say it's normal, for a number of reasons. Yahoo's mail servers may be acting wonky - that happens a good bit - and only spit out their accumulated mail in bursts; your ISP's mail servers may be overloaded and delivering mail the same way, etc. Unless you're a nit-picky system administrator like me :), none of the above is anything to worry about. As long as you're not losing mail, it's all cool. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27505|27424|2012-01-29 23:58:48|Matt Malone|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|I have read what Kasten said about Orgami on his website. I do not see any lies really. I have not seen an orgami deck or rudder yet because it is easier to frame and plate it. Just because it is not orgami does not matter, it is easier to frame and plate those things and Brent's boats are easier, not 100% orgami in every piece. Kasten is a boat designer which is a little bit artist. Expecting him to think orgami is stylish is like expecting an architect to like a simple commercial building. Really. Who can afford to hire a boat designer to draw up a boat for them, and then have it custom built by someone else ? Yeah, let all the foolishly rich people go to him, everyone else can go to Brent. Those who look at Kasten, and others, and then at their bank account will keep web surfing for possibilities, and will eventually come across orgami boats. Like I did. I believe he is actually doing Brent a great favour by saying nice things about orgami, like "impressive" "erected... in a matter of days" "captured the imagination of the amateur boat building community" and by saying orgami again and again. Gosh if that does not cause people to type "orgami boat" into Google, what would ? People are mature, or independent, or skeptical enough to take everything with a grain of salt. All they have to do is see Kim's sequence of photos, or others, and I think people capable of doing orgami (i.e. handy) will see the advantage for them. They will see the economy, and the satisfaction of building it themselves. Those who are not handy better have a lot more money to pay a designer / builder so they can go to someone like Kasten. I do not believe Brent should bother with designers / salesmen like Kasten. In the great war of Orgami against the world, Kim's picture sequence and others are the Missouri-grade proof (show me) that orgami has something to it. You look at Kasten's website and you smell expense and, well, salesmanship. No one can look at Kim's picture sequence, showing orgami by example, and imagine Kim is trying to sell them something. It is orgami is simply impressive, on its own, with no words or sales pressure, or hype needed. So, just say it widely and often "orgami boats". People will google their way here. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:03:41 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? Arctic Husky emailed me some hate mail over this post, then cowardly blocked my response. So here is my response. I'd have no problem with Kasten, if he would simply correct the deliberate lies on his website, to reflect the reality he has been informed of. I wont sit idly by while people are being lied to in ways that will needlessly cost them time, money, and results. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'm happy to debate any issue or question here, where response is possible. I've never limited technical debates anywhere. What I do object to is someone trying to sneak disinfomation from liars, in thru the back door, where there is no opportunity to debate or respond to the decrees that are being made. > Michael Kasten's abysmally naive comments are a good example. > His site offers no place for comment or questioning the decrees he makes, unlike this site. What is he afraid of ? The truth? > When he first stated that origami methods are only useable for hulls, and can't be used for decks cabin keels rudders and skegs , he was just being willfully foolish.He was choosing to comment on a building method while deliberately not reading my book , nor this site and the information on it, in other words while deliberately choosing to remain abysmally ignorant of the subject at hand. When I pointed out to him that we have been using origami methods for cabins, decks, rudders, keels and skegs from the first origami boat I built, since 1980 , and my book shows this being done, he refused to change the disinformation on his website , at that point he became a deliberate, willfully bare faced liar. He has deliberately tried to mislead boat builders, in ways that will cost them a lot of wasted time and money,to keep his own outdated methods relevant, for fun and profit. > When he states that the possible origami hull shapes are extremely limited, while anyone can see the origami multi chine hulls which Greg designs, a huge variation from my single chine designs, something he knows full well makes him a deliberate liar, he continues to promote the lie. . > Would it be wise to get your design information from someone who has willfully chosen to be totally ignorant of the subject at hand and has since proven to be a barefaced liar? I think not. In fact I would treat anything he has to say from that point on as suspect. > Alex set up this site for the benefit of us all, at no particular benefit to himself, at the time . Twice people have used this site to attack Alex's interests , using his own effort to help us, against him. > If someone tries that with me, the gloves come off, and I wouldn't rule any reasonable response out. Such back stabbing cowardice has no place on this site. Will I "be nice" and take it lying down , while some lying bastard is trying to con people into wasting huge amounts of time and money, using his outdated building methods, so he, conveniently, doesn't have to think outside the box? Not a chance! > You have a point to debate , bring it to the discussion, where we can all comment on it, don't try sneak it in the back door. I'd be happy to debate Kasten here, in an open debate, but don't try sneak his lying decrees in thru the back door. > Who is Michael Kasten? How many steel boats has he built with his own hands? How many times has he sailed them across oceans , or maintained the same boat over several decades? How may dozen of his designs have been built and done major ocean voyages , or circumnavigated? Why, despite my having cruised BC, near his homeland, for 40 years, have I never seen a boat identified as a Kasten Design? > Best ask him those questions, before buying his sales pitch. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > Actually Brent I agree completely with what you say. However, using an example > > from Rod Stephen's book, I can take some practical suggestions on the > > construction and placement of hatches and dorade vents, building them as > > Stephen's suggests from scratch instead of just buying whats out there. In > > fact, most of the information and ideas in that manuscript that I find > > interesting have to do with construction details. Fabricating the items you > > need instead of buying them doesn't sound like, "The Way is is done" it sounds > > more like what a certain "heretic" here advocates. "The Way it is done" is just > > to buy whatever shit the marine industry is pushing and the one thing I truly > > believe is that this site and the people here are dedicated to NOT doing that. > > Building hatches from scratch and building dorades from scratch which are just > > some of the things Stephen's suggests in the book have nothing to do with "The > > Way it is done". > > > > I don't see why I and others shouldn't use some good technical info, such as how > > tall to make dorade boxes for a given size of vent, how to size the pipes used > > and how far they should extend in the box, anymore than say refusing to read > > information Beta Marine came up with on sizing integral steel tanks for keel > > cooling for different engine power levels. Is getting technical information > > from a different yet also experienced source no longer allowed here? > > > > > > I don't believe that what you're trying to say is "Hey, my way or the highway > > here buddy", but it's unfortunately coming across that way to me. I know that > > you have been repeatedly and viciously attacked by many others on different > > forums for speaking your mind and going against "the commonly held wisdom". I > > applaud you for your courage and admire your ability and willingness to share > > just those ideas, I spent a good part of my career doing exactly the same, and > > have suffered the slings and arrows too, so I am not one of those attackers. > > However when you denigrate something you haven't read and urge others not to > > read it either; you're just throwing the baby out with the bath water IMHO. I > > think that this site and your philosophy is actually reflected in many of the > > construction and fabrication ideas expressed in Stephen's book. I'm certain he > > says a lot of things you disagree with. Hey, a lot of what I read I disagree > > with myself, but allow me the courtesy of reading, understanding, and weighing > > the merits of anyone's ideas myself without telling me what I can or can't do or > > should or should not read. Fair? > > > > Norm Moore > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, January 23, 2012 11:52:05 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > No progress or advancement was ever made without going against the rules. The > > "Way it is done" rules solidly block innovation, and thus progress. "The Way it > > is done" has given us horrendously complex, expensive and labour intensive > > boats, for the profits of those who sell and build them. Believing one can > > continue to do things the same way, with a different outcome, is self delusion. > > Such a course of action is strongly promoted by those who wish to maintain road > > blocks in front of low income cruisers, in order to maintain the relevance of > > their wealth > > Dealing with the two greatest obstacles to most boaters cruising dreams, time > > and money, can only be accomplished by thinking and doing things differently. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > > > I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can see > > > > > > someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of > > >below > > > > > > decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because > > >Brent > > > > > > has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with > > > many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came > > >from > > > > > > a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can also > > > > > appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the > > >engineers > > > > > > that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded > > > once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in > > > materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has > > > money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might have > > >a > > > > > > good idea once in awhile too. > > > > > > I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those > > >without > > > > > > merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I > > >necessarily > > > > > > must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have > > >to > > > > > > say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced > > >to > > > > > > take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote for > > > > > > the lesser of two evils. > > > > > > > > > The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can > > > expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on > > > whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical world. > > > > > So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a > > > solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of > > >something > > > > > > as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed safely > > > > > without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of > > > having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits > > >up > > > > > > higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better > > > visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit drains > > > > > so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may have > > > > > merit or not. > > > > > > > > > We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal > > > decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading > > >someone's > > > > > > ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to > > > assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know > > > all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's > > > ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads > > > it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod > > > Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn > > > whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the > > > guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people > > > whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk > > >assumptions > > > > > > about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone > > > else here. > > > > > > > > > One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often > > > quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes far > > > > > > less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is a > > > > > > monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for a > > > > > juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I > > > just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect > > > anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what my > > > > > thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just > > > make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or no > > > > > comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and > > > their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for ourselves > > > > > > and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where > > > knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to > > >find > > > > > > them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm > > > expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the ideas > > > > > of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do > > > without the thought police please. > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: martin demers > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: normmoore@ > > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens > > > unfinished > > > > > > > > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > > > > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > > > > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > > > > > safer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Kim > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > > > > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > > > > > feasible or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an > > > > > > > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > > > > > boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any > > > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > > > > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > > > > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the > > >idea > > > > > > > > > > > > might include the following: > > > > > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > > > > > board). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly > > > > > > > > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > > > > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was > > >cut > > > > > > > > > > > > out? > > > > > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the > > > > > > > > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at > > > > > > > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about > > > > > > > > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above > > > > > > > > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, > > > > > > > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard > > >could > > > > > > > > > > > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > > > > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as > > >the > > > > > > > > > > > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > > > > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > > > > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the > > > > > > > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > > > > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely > > > > > > > > eliminated! > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > > > > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27506|27424|2012-01-30 15:56:07|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Check his comments about how origami methods can only be used for hulls, and cant be used for decks , keels skegs and rudders. Those are the deliberate lies I was referring to. My book and photos on this site,as well as Alex's DVD show this being done. I have informed Kasten of this, yet he continues his lies on his website. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I have read what Kasten said about Orgami on his website. > I do not see any lies really. I have not seen an orgami deck > or rudder yet because it is easier to frame and plate it. Just > because it is not orgami does not matter, it is easier to frame > and plate those things and Brent's boats are easier, not > 100% orgami in every piece. > > Kasten is a boat designer which is a little bit artist. Expecting > him to think orgami is stylish is like expecting an architect to > like a simple commercial building. Really. Who can afford to > hire a boat designer to draw up a boat for them, and then have > it custom built by someone else ? Yeah, let all the foolishly > rich people go to him, everyone else can go to Brent. Those > who look at Kasten, and others, and then at their bank account > will keep web surfing for possibilities, and will eventually > come across orgami boats. Like I did. > > I believe he is actually doing Brent a great favour by saying nice > things about orgami, like "impressive" "erected... in a matter of > days" "captured the imagination of the amateur boat building > community" and by saying orgami again and again. > > Gosh if that does not cause people to type "orgami boat" into > Google, what would ? People are mature, or independent, or > skeptical enough to take everything with a grain of salt. > > All they have to do is see Kim's sequence of photos, or others, > and I think people capable of doing orgami (i.e. handy) will see > the advantage for them. They will see the economy, and the > satisfaction of building it themselves. Those who are not handy > better have a lot more money to pay a designer / builder so > they can go to someone like Kasten. > > I do not believe Brent should bother with designers / salesmen > like Kasten. In the great war of Orgami against the world, > Kim's picture sequence and others are the Missouri-grade > proof (show me) that orgami has something to it. You look > at Kasten's website and you smell expense and, well, > salesmanship. No one can look at Kim's picture sequence, > showing orgami by example, and imagine Kim is trying to > sell them something. It is orgami is simply impressive, on > its own, with no words or sales pressure, or hype needed. > > So, just say it widely and often "orgami boats". People will > google their way here. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:03:41 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arctic Husky emailed me some hate mail over this post, then cowardly blocked my response. > > So here is my response. > > I'd have no problem with Kasten, if he would simply correct the deliberate lies on his website, to reflect the reality he has been informed of. I wont sit idly by while people are being lied to in ways that will needlessly cost them time, money, and results. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I'm happy to debate any issue or question here, where response is possible. I've never limited technical debates anywhere. What I do object to is someone trying to sneak disinfomation from liars, in thru the back door, where there is no opportunity to debate or respond to the decrees that are being made. > > > Michael Kasten's abysmally naive comments are a good example. > > > His site offers no place for comment or questioning the decrees he makes, unlike this site. What is he afraid of ? The truth? > > > When he first stated that origami methods are only useable for hulls, and can't be used for decks cabin keels rudders and skegs , he was just being willfully foolish.He was choosing to comment on a building method while deliberately not reading my book , nor this site and the information on it, in other words while deliberately choosing to remain abysmally ignorant of the subject at hand. When I pointed out to him that we have been using origami methods for cabins, decks, rudders, keels and skegs from the first origami boat I built, since 1980 , and my book shows this being done, he refused to change the disinformation on his website , at that point he became a deliberate, willfully bare faced liar. He has deliberately tried to mislead boat builders, in ways that will cost them a lot of wasted time and money,to keep his own outdated methods relevant, for fun and profit. > > > When he states that the possible origami hull shapes are extremely limited, while anyone can see the origami multi chine hulls which Greg designs, a huge variation from my single chine designs, something he knows full well makes him a deliberate liar, he continues to promote the lie. . > > > Would it be wise to get your design information from someone who has willfully chosen to be totally ignorant of the subject at hand and has since proven to be a barefaced liar? I think not. In fact I would treat anything he has to say from that point on as suspect. > > > Alex set up this site for the benefit of us all, at no particular benefit to himself, at the time . Twice people have used this site to attack Alex's interests , using his own effort to help us, against him. > > > If someone tries that with me, the gloves come off, and I wouldn't rule any reasonable response out. Such back stabbing cowardice has no place on this site. Will I "be nice" and take it lying down , while some lying bastard is trying to con people into wasting huge amounts of time and money, using his outdated building methods, so he, conveniently, doesn't have to think outside the box? Not a chance! > > > You have a point to debate , bring it to the discussion, where we can all comment on it, don't try sneak it in the back door. I'd be happy to debate Kasten here, in an open debate, but don't try sneak his lying decrees in thru the back door. > > > Who is Michael Kasten? How many steel boats has he built with his own hands? How many times has he sailed them across oceans , or maintained the same boat over several decades? How may dozen of his designs have been built and done major ocean voyages , or circumnavigated? Why, despite my having cruised BC, near his homeland, for 40 years, have I never seen a boat identified as a Kasten Design? > > > Best ask him those questions, before buying his sales pitch. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > > > > > Actually Brent I agree completely with what you say. However, using an example > > > > from Rod Stephen's book, I can take some practical suggestions on the > > > > construction and placement of hatches and dorade vents, building them as > > > > Stephen's suggests from scratch instead of just buying whats out there. In > > > > fact, most of the information and ideas in that manuscript that I find > > > > interesting have to do with construction details. Fabricating the items you > > > > need instead of buying them doesn't sound like, "The Way is is done" it sounds > > > > more like what a certain "heretic" here advocates. "The Way it is done" is just > > > > to buy whatever shit the marine industry is pushing and the one thing I truly > > > > believe is that this site and the people here are dedicated to NOT doing that. > > > > Building hatches from scratch and building dorades from scratch which are just > > > > some of the things Stephen's suggests in the book have nothing to do with "The > > > > Way it is done". > > > > > > > > I don't see why I and others shouldn't use some good technical info, such as how > > > > tall to make dorade boxes for a given size of vent, how to size the pipes used > > > > and how far they should extend in the box, anymore than say refusing to read > > > > information Beta Marine came up with on sizing integral steel tanks for keel > > > > cooling for different engine power levels. Is getting technical information > > > > from a different yet also experienced source no longer allowed here? > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't believe that what you're trying to say is "Hey, my way or the highway > > > > here buddy", but it's unfortunately coming across that way to me. I know that > > > > you have been repeatedly and viciously attacked by many others on different > > > > forums for speaking your mind and going against "the commonly held wisdom". I > > > > applaud you for your courage and admire your ability and willingness to share > > > > just those ideas, I spent a good part of my career doing exactly the same, and > > > > have suffered the slings and arrows too, so I am not one of those attackers. > > > > However when you denigrate something you haven't read and urge others not to > > > > read it either; you're just throwing the baby out with the bath water IMHO. I > > > > think that this site and your philosophy is actually reflected in many of the > > > > construction and fabrication ideas expressed in Stephen's book. I'm certain he > > > > says a lot of things you disagree with. Hey, a lot of what I read I disagree > > > > with myself, but allow me the courtesy of reading, understanding, and weighing > > > > the merits of anyone's ideas myself without telling me what I can or can't do or > > > > should or should not read. Fair? > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Mon, January 23, 2012 11:52:05 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > No progress or advancement was ever made without going against the rules. The > > > > "Way it is done" rules solidly block innovation, and thus progress. "The Way it > > > > is done" has given us horrendously complex, expensive and labour intensive > > > > boats, for the profits of those who sell and build them. Believing one can > > > > continue to do things the same way, with a different outcome, is self delusion. > > > > Such a course of action is strongly promoted by those who wish to maintain road > > > > blocks in front of low income cruisers, in order to maintain the relevance of > > > > their wealth > > > > Dealing with the two greatest obstacles to most boaters cruising dreams, time > > > > and money, can only be accomplished by thinking and doing things differently. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can see > > > > > > > > > > someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of > > > > >below > > > > > > > > > > decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because > > > > >Brent > > > > > > > > > > has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with > > > > > many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came > > > > >from > > > > > > > > > > a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can also > > > > > > > > > appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the > > > > >engineers > > > > > > > > > > that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded > > > > > once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in > > > > > materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has > > > > > money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might have > > > > >a > > > > > > > > > > good idea once in awhile too. > > > > > > > > > > I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those > > > > >without > > > > > > > > > > merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I > > > > >necessarily > > > > > > > > > > must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have > > > > >to > > > > > > > > > > say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced > > > > >to > > > > > > > > > > take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote for > > > > > > > > > > the lesser of two evils. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can > > > > > expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on > > > > > whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical world. > > > > > > > > > So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a > > > > > solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of > > > > >something > > > > > > > > > > as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed safely > > > > > > > > > without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of > > > > > having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits > > > > >up > > > > > > > > > > higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better > > > > > visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit drains > > > > > > > > > so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may have > > > > > > > > > merit or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal > > > > > decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading > > > > >someone's > > > > > > > > > > ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to > > > > > assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know > > > > > all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's > > > > > ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads > > > > > it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod > > > > > Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn > > > > > whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the > > > > > guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people > > > > > whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk > > > > >assumptions > > > > > > > > > > about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone > > > > > else here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often > > > > > quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes far > > > > > > > > > > less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is a > > > > > > > > > > monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for a > > > > > > > > > juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I > > > > > just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect > > > > > anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what my > > > > > > > > > thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just > > > > > make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or no > > > > > > > > > comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and > > > > > their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for ourselves > > > > > > > > > > and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where > > > > > knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to > > > > >find > > > > > > > > > > them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm > > > > > expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the ideas > > > > > > > > > of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do > > > > > without the thought police please. > > > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: martin demers > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: normmoore@ > > > > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens > > > > > unfinished > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > > > > > > > > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > > > > > > > > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > > > > > > > > > safer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > > > > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > From: Kim > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > > > > > > > > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > > > > > > > > > feasible or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > > > > > > > > > boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > > > > > > > > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > > > > > > > > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the > > > > >idea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > might include the following: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > > > > > > > > > board). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > > > > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > > > > > > > > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was > > > > >cut > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > out? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard > > > > >could > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > > > > > > > > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > > > > > > > > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > > > > > > > > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > > > > > > > > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eliminated! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > > > > > > > > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27507|27424|2012-01-30 18:09:37|ngmoore53|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|I do have a problem with the Kasten's and the Bruce Roberts who're selling the idea that computer cut parts for boats are mana from heaven. For any person who has never been exposed to conventional frame-first steel boat building it's a lie to shill the idea that computer cutting the frames somehow saves measurable time - it doesn't. Somewhere I have a picture of a stack of frames for a Kasten schooner being built, they consist of four pieces all welded together - not much different than using straight stock. But when you see what it does to the people with a cruising dream... it may not be criminal fraud, but it's damn close. I just put up a link to the website of a nice couple that bought a Bruce Roberts 34 kit. They took 121 days to get where Alex and Brent reached in about 3-4 days. If you buy Alex's video (which I heartily recommended) and then read this couple's day by day account, well... it's like a train wreck in slow motion. You almost weep for them. Buy Alex's video and you'll also see Brent demonstrate why trying to fit computer cut parts together is just dumb - there's a far better way to insure good fit. You can read a lot of the messages here and look at the pictures, but nothing distills why exactly we are all so enthusiastic about origami as a building method than Alex's video. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Arctic Husky emailed me some hate mail over this post, then cowardly blocked my response. > So here is my response. > I'd have no problem with Kasten, if he would simply correct the deliberate lies on his website, to reflect the reality he has been informed of. I wont sit idly by while people are being lied to in ways that will needlessly cost them time, money, and results. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I'm happy to debate any issue or question here, where response is possible. I've never limited technical debates anywhere. What I do object to is someone trying to sneak disinfomation from liars, in thru the back door, where there is no opportunity to debate or respond to the decrees that are being made. > > Michael Kasten's abysmally naive comments are a good example. > > His site offers no place for comment or questioning the decrees he makes, unlike this site. What is he afraid of ? The truth? > > When he first stated that origami methods are only useable for hulls, and can't be used for decks cabin keels rudders and skegs , he was just being willfully foolish.He was choosing to comment on a building method while deliberately not reading my book , nor this site and the information on it, in other words while deliberately choosing to remain abysmally ignorant of the subject at hand. When I pointed out to him that we have been using origami methods for cabins, decks, rudders, keels and skegs from the first origami boat I built, since 1980 , and my book shows this being done, he refused to change the disinformation on his website , at that point he became a deliberate, willfully bare faced liar. He has deliberately tried to mislead boat builders, in ways that will cost them a lot of wasted time and money,to keep his own outdated methods relevant, for fun and profit. > > When he states that the possible origami hull shapes are extremely limited, while anyone can see the origami multi chine hulls which Greg designs, a huge variation from my single chine designs, something he knows full well makes him a deliberate liar, he continues to promote the lie. . > > Would it be wise to get your design information from someone who has willfully chosen to be totally ignorant of the subject at hand and has since proven to be a barefaced liar? I think not. In fact I would treat anything he has to say from that point on as suspect. > > Alex set up this site for the benefit of us all, at no particular benefit to himself, at the time . Twice people have used this site to attack Alex's interests , using his own effort to help us, against him. > > If someone tries that with me, the gloves come off, and I wouldn't rule any reasonable response out. Such back stabbing cowardice has no place on this site. Will I "be nice" and take it lying down , while some lying bastard is trying to con people into wasting huge amounts of time and money, using his outdated building methods, so he, conveniently, doesn't have to think outside the box? Not a chance! > > You have a point to debate , bring it to the discussion, where we can all comment on it, don't try sneak it in the back door. I'd be happy to debate Kasten here, in an open debate, but don't try sneak his lying decrees in thru the back door. > > Who is Michael Kasten? How many steel boats has he built with his own hands? How many times has he sailed them across oceans , or maintained the same boat over several decades? How may dozen of his designs have been built and done major ocean voyages , or circumnavigated? Why, despite my having cruised BC, near his homeland, for 40 years, have I never seen a boat identified as a Kasten Design? > > Best ask him those questions, before buying his sales pitch. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > > > Actually Brent I agree completely with what you say. However, using an example > > > from Rod Stephen's book, I can take some practical suggestions on the > > > construction and placement of hatches and dorade vents, building them as > > > Stephen's suggests from scratch instead of just buying whats out there. In > > > fact, most of the information and ideas in that manuscript that I find > > > interesting have to do with construction details. Fabricating the items you > > > need instead of buying them doesn't sound like, "The Way is is done" it sounds > > > more like what a certain "heretic" here advocates. "The Way it is done" is just > > > to buy whatever shit the marine industry is pushing and the one thing I truly > > > believe is that this site and the people here are dedicated to NOT doing that. > > > Building hatches from scratch and building dorades from scratch which are just > > > some of the things Stephen's suggests in the book have nothing to do with "The > > > Way it is done". > > > > > > I don't see why I and others shouldn't use some good technical info, such as how > > > tall to make dorade boxes for a given size of vent, how to size the pipes used > > > and how far they should extend in the box, anymore than say refusing to read > > > information Beta Marine came up with on sizing integral steel tanks for keel > > > cooling for different engine power levels. Is getting technical information > > > from a different yet also experienced source no longer allowed here? > > > > > > > > > I don't believe that what you're trying to say is "Hey, my way or the highway > > > here buddy", but it's unfortunately coming across that way to me. I know that > > > you have been repeatedly and viciously attacked by many others on different > > > forums for speaking your mind and going against "the commonly held wisdom". I > > > applaud you for your courage and admire your ability and willingness to share > > > just those ideas, I spent a good part of my career doing exactly the same, and > > > have suffered the slings and arrows too, so I am not one of those attackers. > > > However when you denigrate something you haven't read and urge others not to > > > read it either; you're just throwing the baby out with the bath water IMHO. I > > > think that this site and your philosophy is actually reflected in many of the > > > construction and fabrication ideas expressed in Stephen's book. I'm certain he > > > says a lot of things you disagree with. Hey, a lot of what I read I disagree > > > with myself, but allow me the courtesy of reading, understanding, and weighing > > > the merits of anyone's ideas myself without telling me what I can or can't do or > > > should or should not read. Fair? > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Mon, January 23, 2012 11:52:05 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > No progress or advancement was ever made without going against the rules. The > > > "Way it is done" rules solidly block innovation, and thus progress. "The Way it > > > is done" has given us horrendously complex, expensive and labour intensive > > > boats, for the profits of those who sell and build them. Believing one can > > > continue to do things the same way, with a different outcome, is self delusion. > > > Such a course of action is strongly promoted by those who wish to maintain road > > > blocks in front of low income cruisers, in order to maintain the relevance of > > > their wealth > > > Dealing with the two greatest obstacles to most boaters cruising dreams, time > > > and money, can only be accomplished by thinking and doing things differently. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > > > > > I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can see > > > > > > > > someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of > > > >below > > > > > > > > decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because > > > >Brent > > > > > > > > has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with > > > > many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came > > > >from > > > > > > > > a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can also > > > > > > > appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the > > > >engineers > > > > > > > > that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded > > > > once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in > > > > materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has > > > > money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might have > > > >a > > > > > > > > good idea once in awhile too. > > > > > > > > I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those > > > >without > > > > > > > > merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I > > > >necessarily > > > > > > > > must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have > > > >to > > > > > > > > say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced > > > >to > > > > > > > > take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote for > > > > > > > > the lesser of two evils. > > > > > > > > > > > > The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can > > > > expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on > > > > whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical world. > > > > > > > So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a > > > > solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of > > > >something > > > > > > > > as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed safely > > > > > > > without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of > > > > having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits > > > >up > > > > > > > > higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better > > > > visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit drains > > > > > > > so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may have > > > > > > > merit or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal > > > > decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading > > > >someone's > > > > > > > > ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to > > > > assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know > > > > all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's > > > > ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads > > > > it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod > > > > Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn > > > > whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the > > > > guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people > > > > whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk > > > >assumptions > > > > > > > > about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone > > > > else here. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often > > > > quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes far > > > > > > > > less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is a > > > > > > > > monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for a > > > > > > > juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I > > > > just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect > > > > anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what my > > > > > > > thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just > > > > make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or no > > > > > > > comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and > > > > their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for ourselves > > > > > > > > and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where > > > > knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to > > > >find > > > > > > > > them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm > > > > expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the ideas > > > > > > > of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do > > > > without the thought police please. > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: martin demers > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: normmoore@ > > > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens > > > > unfinished > > > > > > > > > > > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > > > > > > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > > > > > > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > > > > > > > safer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Kim > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > > > > > > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > > > > > > > feasible or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an > > > > > > > > > > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > > > > > > > boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any > > > > > > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > > > > > > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > > > > > > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the > > > >idea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > might include the following: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > > > > > > > board). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly > > > > > > > > > > > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > > > > > > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was > > > >cut > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > out? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the > > > > > > > > > > > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at > > > > > > > > > > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about > > > > > > > > > > > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above > > > > > > > > > > > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, > > > > > > > > > > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard > > > >could > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > > > > > > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as > > > >the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > > > > > > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > > > > > > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the > > > > > > > > > > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > > > > > > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely > > > > > > > > > > > eliminated! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > > > > > > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 27508|27424|2012-01-30 18:36:55|wild_explorer|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|I think most comments about "impossible to do it in Origami" has very simple explanation - It takes HUGE amount of work to design boat as "Origami compatible". Similar to effort required to make perfect sphere with hand tools. Another limitation comes from abilities of 3D programs (used by boat designers) which are capable of doing "Origami" type design. Not so many people these days will bother to do boat design "old fashion way by hands". It takes a long time to polish "Origami type" design (to find best settings). Same with finding foils compatible with "Origami" (for keel, skeg, rudder) which already have data/specs for calculations. All this is a LOT of HARD and TIME CONSUMING WORK most designers will avoid. It is easier to say "Origami is very limited". The limitation is... - it will be very good boat if done correctly ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Check his comments about how origami methods can only be used for hulls, and cant be used for decks , keels skegs and rudders. Those are the deliberate lies I was referring to. My book and photos on this site,as well as Alex's DVD show this being done. I have informed Kasten of this, yet he continues his lies on his website. > | 27509|27424|2012-01-30 20:14:00|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Friends were hired to build a pre-cut log house, with all the parts numbered. By the time they were done, they said they could have built several, in a fraction the time, if they had just been given a pile of logs and a drawing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ngmoore53" wrote: > > I do have a problem with the Kasten's and the Bruce Roberts who're selling the idea that computer cut parts for boats are mana from heaven. For any person who has never been exposed to conventional frame-first steel boat building it's a lie to shill the idea that computer cutting the frames somehow saves measurable time - it doesn't. Somewhere I have a picture of a stack of frames for a Kasten schooner being built, they consist of four pieces all welded together - not much different than using straight stock. But when you see what it does to the people with a cruising dream... it may not be criminal fraud, but it's damn close. > > I just put up a link to the website of a nice couple that bought a Bruce Roberts 34 kit. They took 121 days to get where Alex and Brent reached in about 3-4 days. If you buy Alex's video (which I heartily recommended) and then read this couple's day by day account, well... it's like a train wreck in slow motion. You almost weep for them. Buy Alex's video and you'll also see Brent demonstrate why trying to fit computer cut parts together is just dumb - there's a far better way to insure good fit. You can read a lot of the messages here and look at the pictures, but nothing distills why exactly we are all so enthusiastic about origami as a building method than Alex's video. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Arctic Husky emailed me some hate mail over this post, then cowardly blocked my response. > > So here is my response. > > I'd have no problem with Kasten, if he would simply correct the deliberate lies on his website, to reflect the reality he has been informed of. I wont sit idly by while people are being lied to in ways that will needlessly cost them time, money, and results. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I'm happy to debate any issue or question here, where response is possible. I've never limited technical debates anywhere. What I do object to is someone trying to sneak disinfomation from liars, in thru the back door, where there is no opportunity to debate or respond to the decrees that are being made. > > > Michael Kasten's abysmally naive comments are a good example. > > > His site offers no place for comment or questioning the decrees he makes, unlike this site. What is he afraid of ? The truth? > > > When he first stated that origami methods are only useable for hulls, and can't be used for decks cabin keels rudders and skegs , he was just being willfully foolish.He was choosing to comment on a building method while deliberately not reading my book , nor this site and the information on it, in other words while deliberately choosing to remain abysmally ignorant of the subject at hand. When I pointed out to him that we have been using origami methods for cabins, decks, rudders, keels and skegs from the first origami boat I built, since 1980 , and my book shows this being done, he refused to change the disinformation on his website , at that point he became a deliberate, willfully bare faced liar. He has deliberately tried to mislead boat builders, in ways that will cost them a lot of wasted time and money,to keep his own outdated methods relevant, for fun and profit. > > > When he states that the possible origami hull shapes are extremely limited, while anyone can see the origami multi chine hulls which Greg designs, a huge variation from my single chine designs, something he knows full well makes him a deliberate liar, he continues to promote the lie. . > > > Would it be wise to get your design information from someone who has willfully chosen to be totally ignorant of the subject at hand and has since proven to be a barefaced liar? I think not. In fact I would treat anything he has to say from that point on as suspect. > > > Alex set up this site for the benefit of us all, at no particular benefit to himself, at the time . Twice people have used this site to attack Alex's interests , using his own effort to help us, against him. > > > If someone tries that with me, the gloves come off, and I wouldn't rule any reasonable response out. Such back stabbing cowardice has no place on this site. Will I "be nice" and take it lying down , while some lying bastard is trying to con people into wasting huge amounts of time and money, using his outdated building methods, so he, conveniently, doesn't have to think outside the box? Not a chance! > > > You have a point to debate , bring it to the discussion, where we can all comment on it, don't try sneak it in the back door. I'd be happy to debate Kasten here, in an open debate, but don't try sneak his lying decrees in thru the back door. > > > Who is Michael Kasten? How many steel boats has he built with his own hands? How many times has he sailed them across oceans , or maintained the same boat over several decades? How may dozen of his designs have been built and done major ocean voyages , or circumnavigated? Why, despite my having cruised BC, near his homeland, for 40 years, have I never seen a boat identified as a Kasten Design? > > > Best ask him those questions, before buying his sales pitch. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > > > > > Actually Brent I agree completely with what you say. However, using an example > > > > from Rod Stephen's book, I can take some practical suggestions on the > > > > construction and placement of hatches and dorade vents, building them as > > > > Stephen's suggests from scratch instead of just buying whats out there. In > > > > fact, most of the information and ideas in that manuscript that I find > > > > interesting have to do with construction details. Fabricating the items you > > > > need instead of buying them doesn't sound like, "The Way is is done" it sounds > > > > more like what a certain "heretic" here advocates. "The Way it is done" is just > > > > to buy whatever shit the marine industry is pushing and the one thing I truly > > > > believe is that this site and the people here are dedicated to NOT doing that. > > > > Building hatches from scratch and building dorades from scratch which are just > > > > some of the things Stephen's suggests in the book have nothing to do with "The > > > > Way it is done". > > > > > > > > I don't see why I and others shouldn't use some good technical info, such as how > > > > tall to make dorade boxes for a given size of vent, how to size the pipes used > > > > and how far they should extend in the box, anymore than say refusing to read > > > > information Beta Marine came up with on sizing integral steel tanks for keel > > > > cooling for different engine power levels. Is getting technical information > > > > from a different yet also experienced source no longer allowed here? > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't believe that what you're trying to say is "Hey, my way or the highway > > > > here buddy", but it's unfortunately coming across that way to me. I know that > > > > you have been repeatedly and viciously attacked by many others on different > > > > forums for speaking your mind and going against "the commonly held wisdom". I > > > > applaud you for your courage and admire your ability and willingness to share > > > > just those ideas, I spent a good part of my career doing exactly the same, and > > > > have suffered the slings and arrows too, so I am not one of those attackers. > > > > However when you denigrate something you haven't read and urge others not to > > > > read it either; you're just throwing the baby out with the bath water IMHO. I > > > > think that this site and your philosophy is actually reflected in many of the > > > > construction and fabrication ideas expressed in Stephen's book. I'm certain he > > > > says a lot of things you disagree with. Hey, a lot of what I read I disagree > > > > with myself, but allow me the courtesy of reading, understanding, and weighing > > > > the merits of anyone's ideas myself without telling me what I can or can't do or > > > > should or should not read. Fair? > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Mon, January 23, 2012 11:52:05 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > No progress or advancement was ever made without going against the rules. The > > > > "Way it is done" rules solidly block innovation, and thus progress. "The Way it > > > > is done" has given us horrendously complex, expensive and labour intensive > > > > boats, for the profits of those who sell and build them. Believing one can > > > > continue to do things the same way, with a different outcome, is self delusion. > > > > Such a course of action is strongly promoted by those who wish to maintain road > > > > blocks in front of low income cruisers, in order to maintain the relevance of > > > > their wealth > > > > Dealing with the two greatest obstacles to most boaters cruising dreams, time > > > > and money, can only be accomplished by thinking and doing things differently. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I always try to keep an open mind, but I also remain skeptical unless I can see > > > > > > > > > > someone's ideas have real practical merit. Clearly, Stephens rejection of > > > > >below > > > > > > > > > > decks steering is one most of us here, including me, would reject, because > > > > >Brent > > > > > > > > > > has developed an extremely clever, proven and inexpensive way to do this with > > > > > many advantages. Stephens might have rejected an idea just because it came > > > > >from > > > > > > > > > > a boilermaker, but I wouldn't - not when it makes damn good sense. I can also > > > > > > > > > appreciate that Brent has a far better understanding of steel than the > > > > >engineers > > > > > > > > > > that populate the Boat Design.net forum, who only saw some steel being welded > > > > > once and otherwise only know about steel from what they've read about it in > > > > > materials science books. Likewise, not every rich guy just because he has > > > > > money, is necessarily stupid, just avaricious. Sometimes even they might have > > > > >a > > > > > > > > > > good idea once in awhile too. > > > > > > > > > > I've also found that I can both accept ideas with merit and reject those > > > > >without > > > > > > > > > > merit selectively. This isn't a "winner take all" endeavor, where I > > > > >necessarily > > > > > > > > > > must adopt every damn thing someone has to say or reject everything they have > > > > >to > > > > > > > > > > say whole without chewing on it and spitting out the gristle. I'm not forced > > > > >to > > > > > > > > > > take the bad with the good as in an election where I hold my nose as I vote for > > > > > > > > > > the lesser of two evils. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The advantage of a free society and the free exchange of ideas is that we can > > > > > expose ourselves to many ideas that we may accept or reject based solely on > > > > > whether for your application it really does have merit in the practical world. > > > > > > > > > So for example, I might think Stephens idea of using a railing instead of a > > > > > solid coming around the cockpit, so that you can actually grab hold of > > > > >something > > > > > > > > > > as you climb in and out of the cockpit and at the same time be enclosed safely > > > > > > > > > without holding any additional water has merit, and you may not. The idea of > > > > > having a shallow foot well of a cockpit that doesn't hold much water and sits > > > > >up > > > > > > > > > > higherso it drains more easily and has the helmsman sit up higher with better > > > > > visibility may have merit or not. The guidelines on sizing the cockpit drains > > > > > > > > > so that you know your cockpit can drain quickly without just guessing may have > > > > > > > > > merit or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're all free to agree or disagree and none of us need share our personal > > > > > decisions with anyone else, which is why I often only suggest reading > > > > >someone's > > > > > > > > > > ideas, and don't advocate for any particular ones. That's for each person to > > > > > assess and decide about for themselves. However, anyone that feels they know > > > > > all they need to know is also completely free to skip reading other people's > > > > > ideas - I frankly don't give a damn whether everyone reads it or nobody reads > > > > > it, but that really should be each individual's choice don't you think? Rod > > > > > Stephens is as dead as Julius Caesar, so he certainly doesn't give a damn > > > > > whether anyone reads what he wrote. Why should I care? I never even met the > > > > > guy. I don't personally identify myself or my views with any of the people > > > > > whose ideas I read or make available, so please don't make knee jerk > > > > >assumptions > > > > > > > > > > about me and I'll do the courtesy of not making that assumption about anyone > > > > > else here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the reasons I rarely comment on this forum is that discussions often > > > > > quickly deteriorate into pissing contests, where the merit of ideas becomes far > > > > > > > > > > less important than just nitpicking and shouting down someone. That to me is a > > > > > > > > > > monumental waste of time, and also quite dull reading. So anyone looking for a > > > > > > > > > juicy flame war here needn't bother, it will be decidedly one sided because I > > > > > just won't bother taking part or even reading the comments. I don't expect > > > > > anyone to agree with me, and frankly don't care. I'm just telling you what my > > > > > > > > > thoughts are about the free sharing of ideas so you can understand why I just > > > > > make other people's ideas available, including my own, often with little or no > > > > > > > > > comment. I'm not an advocate, probably because I dislike lawyers so much and > > > > > their view of the world. We've all got a brain, we can all think for ourselves > > > > > > > > > > and decide for ourselves. I believe in the internet as a vast library where > > > > > knowledge and ideas are available and each of us has to do a little work to > > > > >find > > > > > > > > > > them and judge those ideas ourselves. To avoid any confusion, the views I'm > > > > > expressing here are solely on the subject of keeping an open mind to the ideas > > > > > > > > > of other people and then deciding for yourself, nothing else, but I can do > > > > > without the thought police please. > > > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: martin demers > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 2:15:35 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > Stephens is against inside steering if under deck... > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: normmoore@ > > > > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:59:05 -0800 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading the section on cockpits from Rod Stephens > > > > > unfinished > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manuscript. It's still available free from Sparkman and Stephens website > > > > > > > > > > http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/rodstephens_book/ . He has some > > > > > > > > > > very interesting ideas on cockpit design to make them both more seaworthy and > > > > > > > > > > safer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Norm Moore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > > > > > > > > > > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > From: Kim > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thu, January 19, 2012 11:55:17 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a Swain yacht with an "open" or "walk through" transom? > > > > > > > > > > I'm thinking of doing this on my 26-footer; but I don't know if the idea is > > > > > > > > > > feasible or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In particular, I don't know if cutting out a bit of the transom, to make it an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "open" or "walk through" type, would affect the structural integrity of the > > > > > > > > > > boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will not do it if it might adversely affect the structure of the boat in any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A picture is worth a thousand words, and if you click on this link you'll see > > > > > > > > > > what I have in mind for my Swain 26: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/OpenTransom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never sailed in a boat with an open transom, so I don't know what it's > > > > > > > > > > like. However, it seems to me that some advantages and disadvantages of the > > > > >idea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > might include the following: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ADVANTAGES > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Much easier to retrieve man overboard (or single hander climbing back on > > > > > > > > > > board). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Maybe easier fishing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Very much easier and safer to get in and out of a tender/dinghy (particularly > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if there's also a duckboard at the bottom of the transom). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier to get on and off the boat if it was stern to a dock. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Incomparable cockpit drainage! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DISADVANTAGES > > > > > > > > > > ------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Loss of structural integrity at the back of the Swain 26??? Would the stern > > > > > > > > > > sections be more likely to "twist" and "move" if this bit of the transom was > > > > >cut > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > out? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Rudder not as well supported? With the open transom, the distance between the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pintles and gudgeons would be about 4'6" (1370mm) (mounting points would be at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the cockpit floor and the bottom of the skeg). Brent's drawings show them about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5'6" (1670mm) apart (near the top of the transom and the bottom of the skeg). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Because the rudder and the rudder stock would end a very short distance above > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the cockpit floor, would it be more difficult to attach a tiller, a wind-vane, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and the cables etc that connect to the rudder's trim-tab? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for stuff, and people, to fall overboard (but a gate or washboard > > > > >could > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easily be fitted to prevent this). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Easier for a large following sea to flood the cockpit? If so, this is maybe > > > > > > > > > > not so important on a wheelhouse boat. And it may not be an issue anyway, as > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > buoyancy in the stern sections of the hull would remain unchanged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason I started thinking along these lines is because when I was welding > > > > > > > > > > the vertical cockpit seat sides to the inside back of the transom, I > > > > > > > > > > inadvertently caused a fair bit of un-fixable distortion in the transom at the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > back of the cockpit. The rest of the transom is perfectly fair. If I cut out > > > > > > > > > > this bit to make it an open transom then that distortion problem is completely > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eliminated! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, I would greatly appreciate your comments on this open transom idea. > > > > > > > > > > Particularly your comments on its structural aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 27510|27424|2012-01-30 20:16:48|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|Or , one can take the patterns off any hard chine existing hull, and pull it together, origami style. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I think most comments about "impossible to do it in Origami" has very simple explanation - It takes HUGE amount of work to design boat as "Origami compatible". Similar to effort required to make perfect sphere with hand tools. > > Another limitation comes from abilities of 3D programs (used by boat designers) which are capable of doing "Origami" type design. Not so many people these days will bother to do boat design "old fashion way by hands". > > It takes a long time to polish "Origami type" design (to find best settings). > > Same with finding foils compatible with "Origami" (for keel, skeg, rudder) which already have data/specs for calculations. > > All this is a LOT of HARD and TIME CONSUMING WORK most designers will avoid. It is easier to say "Origami is very limited". The limitation is... - it will be very good boat if done correctly ;)) > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Check his comments about how origami methods can only be used for hulls, and cant be used for decks , keels skegs and rudders. Those are the deliberate lies I was referring to. My book and photos on this site,as well as Alex's DVD show this being done. I have informed Kasten of this, yet he continues his lies on his website. > > > | 27511|27424|2012-01-31 13:45:20|wild_explorer|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|It is possible to use this method to make a prototype for future origami version. The problem is that in Origami it will be slightly different boat with some differences in characteristics, which will require some adjustments for hull's lines. So, these adjustments are the hardest part. It requires to make a model at least, better - full size boat ;) As I recall, Brent posted his method (how to make Origami style pattern from existing boat) several times in this group. P.S. I was talking about designers who rely on 3D only, instead of building full size prototype. Which is probably the case for custom boats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Or , one can take the patterns off any hard chine existing hull, and pull it together, origami style. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > I think most comments about "impossible to do it in Origami" has very simple explanation - It takes HUGE amount of work to design boat as "Origami compatible". Similar to effort required to make perfect sphere with hand tools. > > | 27512|27424|2012-01-31 15:09:23|brentswain38|Re: An "open" or "walk through" transom on a Swain 26?|With the huge variations in the amount of gear and weight any two different owners will put in a boat , such slight variations in hull shape become irrelevant, in the real world. It's only the overall shape that is relevant, by the time you have moved aboard and lived aboard for a while.Yes,it works well for a prototype. Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > It is possible to use this method to make a prototype for future origami version. The problem is that in Origami it will be slightly different boat with some differences in characteristics, which will require some adjustments for hull's lines. > > So, these adjustments are the hardest part. It requires to make a model at least, better - full size boat ;) > > As I recall, Brent posted his method (how to make Origami style pattern from existing boat) several times in this group. > > P.S. I was talking about designers who rely on 3D only, instead of building full size prototype. Which is probably the case for custom boats. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Or , one can take the patterns off any hard chine existing hull, and pull it together, origami style. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > I think most comments about "impossible to do it in Origami" has very simple explanation - It takes HUGE amount of work to design boat as "Origami compatible". Similar to effort required to make perfect sphere with hand tools. > > > > | 27513|27496|2012-02-01 10:46:06|martin demers|Re: C-head|I am very happy to see that someone had finally decided to build a cheaper ''plastic bucket'' To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:32:34 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] C-head Looks like someone has started building the composting head for a more reasonable price, a fraction the cost of an Airhead or Natures head. Do a search under C-Head. It has a much smaller capacity, but they sell components, so you can buy the separator seat and build the rest yourself . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27514|27514|2012-02-01 14:54:21|roguemariner100|My Balfour Steel Cutter is for sail|http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/boa/2828638353.html. This is the link to Slade Green's Craigslist add. The boat currently lies in Guaymas Mexico and I will be in the area from mid Feb to late spring. I have poured everything into this boat for 15 years but painfully I need the money to complete my new boat. Bigger, longer, faster.| 27515|27496|2012-02-01 15:17:05|Matt Malone|Re: C-head|Yes, I started to look at the C-head too, and I am not sure it is the separator seat that is the interesting part to buy. They try hard not to show any details of the separator seat, but it looks like there is just a somewhat ordinary looking funnel-like thing attached to the bottom front of the seat. I think the interesting part is the bucket top that fits into the top of an ordinary 5 gallon pail that has the vents, stirrer, and opening built into it. In fact, the more I look at it, the more I think even that part is not so interesting. I think this C-head has hit the perfect price-complexity point. No one part looks very complicated. I am sure they make them out of common stuff, and sell them at a decent profit. Good for them. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:46:04 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] C-head > > I am very happy to see that someone had finally decided to build a cheaper ''plastic bucket'' > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:32:34 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] C-head > > Looks like someone has started building the composting head for a more reasonable price, a fraction the cost of an Airhead or Natures head. Do a search under C-Head. It has a much smaller capacity, but they sell components, so you can buy the separator seat and build the rest yourself . > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27516|27496|2012-02-02 01:24:39|brentswain38|Re: C-head|Same principles as the composter in my book, or the Airhead or Natures head. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Yes, I started to look at the C-head too, and I am not sure it is the separator seat that is the interesting part to buy. They try hard not to show any details of the separator seat, but it looks like there is just a somewhat ordinary looking funnel-like thing attached to the bottom front of the seat. I think the interesting part is the bucket top that fits into the top of an ordinary 5 gallon pail that has the vents, stirrer, and opening built into it. In fact, the more I look at it, the more I think even that part is not so interesting. > > I think this C-head has hit the perfect price-complexity point. No one part looks very complicated. I am sure they make them out of common stuff, and sell them at a decent profit. > > Good for them. > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mdemers2005@... > > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:46:04 -0500 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] C-head > > > > I am very happy to see that someone had finally decided to build a cheaper ''plastic bucket'' > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:32:34 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] C-head > > > > > Looks like someone has started building the composting head for a more reasonable price, a fraction the cost of an Airhead or Natures head. Do a search under C-Head. It has a much smaller capacity, but they sell components, so you can buy the separator seat and build the rest yourself . > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27517|27496|2012-02-02 09:27:43|john dean|Composting Heads|Another one to look at is the "Loveable Loo". It seems any of us could build one of these as it is a simple plywood box holding the bucket. Issues these sites do not discuss are how much urine and toilet paper can the composter handle. John Dean --- On Thu, 2/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: C-head To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 2, 2012, 1:24 AM Same principles as the composter in my book, or the Airhead or Natures head. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Yes, I started to look at the C-head too, and I am not sure it is the separator seat that is the interesting part to buy.  They try hard not to show any details of the separator seat, but it looks like there is just a somewhat ordinary looking funnel-like thing attached to the bottom front of the seat.   I think the interesting part is the bucket top that fits into the top of an ordinary 5 gallon pail that has the vents, stirrer, and opening built into it.  In fact, the more I look at it, the more I think even that part is not so interesting.  > > I think this C-head has hit the perfect price-complexity point.  No one part looks very complicated.  I am sure they make them out of common stuff, and sell them at a decent profit.  > > Good for them.    > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mdemers2005@... > > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:46:04 -0500 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] C-head > > > > I am very happy to see that someone had finally decided to build a cheaper ''plastic bucket'' > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:32:34 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] C-head > > > > >       Looks like  someone has started building the composting head for a more reasonable price, a fraction the cost of an Airhead or Natures head. Do a search under C-Head. It has a much smaller capacity, but they sell components, so you can buy the separator seat and build the rest yourself . > > > >                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27518|27496|2012-02-02 17:19:22|brentswain38|Re: Composting Heads|My five litre piss container takes two days to fill. I put the toilet paper in the wood stove --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john dean wrote: > > Another one to look at is the "Loveable Loo". It seems any of us could build one of these as it is a simple plywood box holding the bucket. > Issues these sites do not discuss are how much urine and toilet paper can the composter handle. > John Dean > > --- On Thu, 2/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: C-head > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, February 2, 2012, 1:24 AM > > Same principles as the composter in my book, or the Airhead or Natures head. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > Yes, I started to look at the C-head too, and I am not sure it is the separator seat that is the interesting part to buy.� They try hard not to show any details of the separator seat, but it looks like there is just a somewhat ordinary looking funnel-like thing attached to the bottom front of the seat.���I think the interesting part is the bucket top that fits into the top of an ordinary 5 gallon pail that has the vents, stirrer, and opening built into it.� In fact, the more I look at it, the more I think even that part is not so interesting.� > > > > I think this C-head has hit the perfect price-complexity point.� No one part looks very complicated.� I am sure they make them out of common stuff, and sell them at a decent profit.� > > > > Good for them.��� > > > > Matt > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: mdemers2005@ > > > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:46:04 -0500 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] C-head > > > > > > I am very happy to see that someone had finally decided to build a cheaper ''plastic bucket'' > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:32:34 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] C-head > > > > > > > >� � ���Looks like� someone has started building the composting head for a more reasonable price, a fraction the cost of an Airhead or Natures head. Do a search under C-Head. It has a much smaller capacity, but they sell components, so you can buy the separator seat and build the rest yourself . > > > > > > >� ��� �������� ������ ��� � > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27519|27485|2012-02-02 22:29:15|howardpeer|Re: Best way to run electric and sgnal cables through the deck|Brent, I did something a little different. I took a piece of 1-1/4 schedule 40 conduit, then welded a 2" nipple (threaded section) onto it. Imagine a little o inside a BIG O, with the walls touching in one place. Then I screw a 2" black iron pipe cap on the top. The wire comes up through the 1-1/4 and makes a 180 down through the 2". The thing is I unscrew the 2" cap so that I have a straight pull up out of the pipe. Push the wire down through the gap between the small o and BIG O and screw the cap back on. It does make a very tight radius bend to make it back down but that is the compromise I have for ease of pulling. But it is also a compact solution. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've welded two 90 degree ss pipe nipples together where wires exit my deck, to make a 180, so the inlet for the wire is pointed downhill. That way, water following the wire would have to flow uphill to enter the boat. It simply drips off the low end of the wire loop. I weld these into the deck. Works well. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Ted, > > I’d weld half couplings on the deck and install black plastic weatherproof strain relief fittings sized for each cable. I have used these connectors to install cords inside of hoses, then run them at 250 psi without leaks for a period of nearly 17 years! They are real cheap, a couple of bucks each at McMaster Carr, and hold up extremely well in direct sunlight. I’d also put a terminal strip under the mast to connect the cables to interior wiring. I’d install the terminal strip in a location where it is impossible for water to drip on it. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > From: Ted > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 5:49 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Best way to run electric and sgnal cables through the deck > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > Getting closer to finishing and soon will be drilling holes through the deck to run cables through. Any advice such as cable glands or welded in pipe elbows sealed with mastic would be much appreciated. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 27520|27485|2012-02-03 04:47:09|Richard Payne|Re: Best way to run electric and sgnal cables through the deck|We just cut a hole, inseted a plastic thru hull pointing upward, attached an appropriate length of flex hose. The cable was threaded through and the hose looped down to form a gooseneck. If you want you can seal the end with silicon but it is hardly necessary. After 25 yrs still working fine. Regards, Richard| 27521|27485|2012-02-03 08:41:17|James Pronk|Re: Best way to run electric and sgnal cables through the deck|Howard That is a great idea! I find the pipe caps in stainless steel at the scrap yard all the time. Thank you for this one, James --- On Thu, 2/2/12, howardpeer wrote:   Brent, I did something a little different. I took a piece of 1-1/4 schedule 40 conduit, then welded a 2" nipple (threaded section) onto it. Imagine a little o inside a BIG O, with the walls touching in one place. Then I screw a 2" black iron pipe cap on the top. The wire comes up through the 1-1/4 and makes a 180 down through the 2". The thing is I unscrew the 2" cap so that I have a straight pull up out of the pipe. Push the wire down through the gap between the small o and BIG O and screw the cap back on. It does make a very tight radius bend to make it back down but that is the compromise I have for ease of pulling. But it is also a compact solution. Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (5) Recent Activity: New Members 3 New Links 1 New Files 2 Visit Your Group To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27522|27522|2012-02-03 17:32:50|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|Swain 26 draft?|Brent, What is the draft of your 26 ft plan ,with full keel and with twin keels Thanks,Martin| 27523|26545|2012-02-04 11:24:51|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Finally I tried to weld with MIG (GMAW process). Not as easy as I expected ;) We are using GMAW-S, wire ER70S-6 (copper coated wire), 100% CO2, electrode positive. After welding with stick (SMAW process) it LOOKS like it is easier to weld with MIG. Not really ;) First of all, MIG requires more adjustments (wire speed, inductance, voltage, proper gas flow rate and gas settings in welder) and you still need to maintain proper distance to a metal for steady arc and keep steady travel speed. After welding with stick you still trying to "feed electrode" at first, instead of maintaining constant distance to the metal (easy to fix, but need to pay attention to it). From my very limited experience at this time I can see for MIG: Pros: Non-stop welding (not very helpful for boat welding), clean weld (no cleanup), easier to weld IF you found correct settings (I tried settings recommendations from Lincoln web-site and it does not work well for Miller welder). Cons: More expensive equipment, more settings, require gas (limited to welding inside a hull or in covered area), less mobility and accessability, still need a lot of practice. I was told that welding with flux-cored wire (which are used in small cheap MIG units) is MUCH easier than with gas/bare_wires. That may be why people say it is easier to weld with MIG than with stick. Any comments on it from people with experience?| 27524|26545|2012-02-04 14:57:56|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions|Hello Wild I hate welding with the cheep, small dia. wire. I would sooner stick weld with a small diameter rod. The clean-up is a pain and it is not recommended for multi-pass welds. I have welded with large diameter flux core wire and dual shield wires and they were much better/easier. The wire needs to feed out of the machine at a high rate with the small wire. Now metal core wire is much nicer then hard wire and you can get a better weld. I see it used for heavy equipment alot. Once you get into the larger diameter wire you are looking at a much bigger machine, $$$.I think you would be better off with a stick welder for boat building. That said I am welding most of the small parts for my boat in my shop using GMAW with .030 hard wire or TIG for the small stainless parts James --- On Sat, 2/4/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, February 4, 2012, 11:24 AM   Finally I tried to weld with MIG (GMAW process). Not as easy as I expected ;) We are using GMAW-S, wire ER70S-6 (copper coated wire), 100% CO2, electrode positive. After welding with stick (SMAW process) it LOOKS like it is easier to weld with MIG. Not really ;) First of all, MIG requires more adjustments (wire speed, inductance, voltage, proper gas flow rate and gas settings in welder) and you still need to maintain proper distance to a metal for steady arc and keep steady travel speed. After welding with stick you still trying to "feed electrode" at first, instead of maintaining constant distance to the metal (easy to fix, but need to pay attention to it). From my very limited experience at this time I can see for MIG: Pros: Non-stop welding (not very helpful for boat welding), clean weld (no cleanup), easier to weld IF you found correct settings (I tried settings recommendations from Lincoln web-site and it does not work well for Miller welder). Cons: More expensive equipment, more settings, require gas (limited to welding inside a hull or in covered area), less mobility and accessability, still need a lot of practice. I was told that welding with flux-cored wire (which are used in small cheap MIG units) is MUCH easier than with gas/bare_wires. That may be why people say it is easier to weld with MIG than with stick. Any comments on it from people with experience? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27525|27485|2012-02-04 17:41:39|Ted|Re: Best way to run electric and sgnal cables through the deck|Many thanks for your replies on the best way to run electric and signal cables through the deck. You advice is much appreciated. Regards, Ted| 27526|26545|2012-02-04 18:59:11|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|We use 0.035 wires for GMAW-S. Ye-ah... It looks like for small boat building preferences (and affordability of the equipments) are: SMAW (Stick) FCAW (Flux-core wire) GMAW-P (Pulsed spray transfer) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Once you get into the larger diameter wire you are looking at a much bigger machine, $$$.I think you would be better off with a stick welder for boat building. That said I am welding most of the small parts for my boat in my shop using GMAW with .030 hard wire or TIG for the small stainless parts > James | 27527|25493|2012-02-04 20:47:35|kingsknight4life|Re: Tom thumb 24|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I knew a guy in Canada who built a Tom Thumb and sailed it to New > Zealand and back over a couple of years. When he first launched it, he > didn't like it's performance at all. > > He cut the skinny full length keel off and put a long larger volume fin > keel on it with a proper airfoil section. If I remember right, I also > believe he put a skeg on with a separate rudder. The higher volume keel > allowed him to put tanks in it and located the ballast lower. > > She ended up floating slightly higher, was more stable with the lower > ballast, had more room due to the tankage in the keel and was faster and > better balanced. He contacted the designer (Graham Shannon?) to tell him > what he had done, but he wasn't interested. > > In my opinion, if you really want to build, I would go for the BS 26 > footer. If you don't need to trailer it, go longer. The cost won't be > that much more to go for 30 feet. Personally, I am not a fan of the > short and fat designs. They have lots of room but they are a large and > heavy displacement boats for their size....you might as well go longer > for the same weight (and material cost) and have something that will sail. > > Cheers, Paul > I agree with Paul. The Swain 30 is the perfect size for one or two people and won't cost much more to build than the 26 footer. Rowland| 27528|25493|2012-02-04 23:09:42|M.J. Malone|Re: Tom thumb 24|3mm decks, 5mm hull on the Tom Thumb 24. What are the thicknesses on th BS 26 ? Matt kingsknight4life wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I knew a guy in Canada who built a Tom Thumb and sailed it to New > Zealand and back over a couple of years. When he first launched it, he > didn't like it's performance at all. > > He cut the skinny full length keel off and put a long larger volume fin > keel on it with a proper airfoil section. If I remember right, I also > believe he put a skeg on with a separate rudder. The higher volume keel > allowed him to put tanks in it and located the ballast lower. > > She ended up floating slightly higher, was more stable with the lower > ballast, had more room due to the tankage in the keel and was faster and > better balanced. He contacted the designer (Graham Shannon?) to tell him > what he had done, but he wasn't interested. > > In my opinion, if you really want to build, I would go for the BS 26 > footer. If you don't need to trailer it, go longer. The cost won't be > that much more to go for 30 feet. Personally, I am not a fan of the > short and fat designs. They have lots of room but they are a large and > heavy displacement boats for their size....you might as well go longer > for the same weight (and material cost) and have something that will sail. > > Cheers, Paul > I agree with Paul. The Swain 30 is the perfect size for one or two people and won't cost much more to build than the 26 footer. Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27529|26545|2012-02-05 00:22:11|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Basic welding questions|Okay, I’ll repeat this warning for the umpteenth time. I used to own a small company where we welded thousands and thousands of small brackets from 1/8” steel, which were subsequently hot dip galvanized. We had been using 0.035” welding wire and the welds were really beautiful. Then one day a customer calls and complains about the brackets breaking right off at the welds. I found that hard to believe, so I went out in the warehouse and pulled a couple of random brackets out of a basket containing about a thousand or more. I stuck one in vice, then hit it with a hammer. It broke in two on the first blow! I tested about twenty more, and broke at least another five. We had a BIG problem! Ultimately we found that by switching to 0.045” welding wire and using a lot more current but welding faster, the problem went away completely. It took more skill to make the welds, but the welding time was substantially less, and we could never break one welded this way. At one point we decided to have an outside shop do the welding. They protested that they never have weld failures with 0.035” wire, we must have been doing something wrong. They then welded up 1000 brackets, and after galvanizing we easily broke them. So they had to pay us for the materials used, and weld another 1000 using the 0.045” wire we specified! Every time I bring this up some experienced welder takes me to task. I suspect that the hot dip galvanizing process exposes the lack of penetration in a way you wouldn’t otherwise see. So I still specify 0.045” wire for all steel to be hot dip galvanized. Gary H. Lucas From: wild_explorer Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 6:59 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions We use 0.035 wires for GMAW-S. Ye-ah... It looks like for small boat building preferences (and affordability of the equipments) are: SMAW (Stick) FCAW (Flux-core wire) GMAW-P (Pulsed spray transfer) --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Once you get into the larger diameter wire you are looking at a much bigger machine, $$$.I think you would be better off with a stick welder for boat building. That said I am welding most of the small parts for my boat in my shop using GMAW with .030 hard wire or TIG for the small stainless parts > James Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27530|26545|2012-02-05 01:40:26|Ben Okopnik|Re: Basic welding questions|On Sun, Feb 05, 2012 at 12:23:40AM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Okay, > I’ll repeat this warning for the umpteenth time. I love that story. :) > I suspect that the hot dip > galvanizing process exposes the lack of penetration in a way you > wouldn’t otherwise see. So I still specify 0.045” wire for all steel > to be hot dip galvanized. I'm not nearly as experienced as Gary, but what I _have_ done with MIG confirms the above. I've put a lot of time and effort into making it work - it would have been very nice to carry a little MIG machine on the boat - but it just won't do it: small-wire MIG just "paints" a pretty-looking cover over the base metal, and that's it. There's just not enough heat mass to get good penetration for any kind of serious welding. Small-diameter flux core is worst of all: even less metal to deposit, and dirty to boot. It's probably OK for thin sheet metal, but I wouldn't waste my time with it for anything else. I do have at least a little bit of a bias against MIG as compared to stick: stick is cheap, easy to power, and I can get however deep I want into the base metal. Using MIG is more like playing pool with a wet spaghetti noodle (err, that's from another comparison, but anyway. :) Using 0.045" wire, which I got to do in school, is a *completely* different ball game: almost like stick welding without having to feed the electrode in manually. The other stuff is a toy. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27531|26545|2012-02-05 03:01:30|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|I need to confirm, but I think we have 0.035 wires in MIGs in our welding class. I am not trying to say it is right to use it for everything, it is just what we are welding with. And most people in our class will not even think to use something else after finishing the class. Same is with finding the best settings for the welder. Sad, but true ;(. Hopefully, someone like Gary will give them right specifications/settings/advice. I have noticed, that some settings corresponds to high current - means need to have more expensive equipment. The bad part is, that there is no indicator what the current is (voltage only for MIG). You need to use a chart to find a current depending on wire's type & size, voltage, wire's speed. P.S. I will try to find 0.045 wire and weld with it. Thanks Gary! P.S.S I still feel more comfortable with stick welding ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 05, 2012 at 12:23:40AM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > Okay, > > I’ll repeat this warning for the umpteenth time. > > I love that story. :) > > > I suspect that the hot dip > > galvanizing process exposes the lack of penetration in a way you > > wouldn’t otherwise see. So I still specify 0.045” wire for all steel > > to be hot dip galvanized. > > I'm not nearly as experienced as Gary, but what I _have_ done with MIG > confirms the above. I've put a lot of time and effort into making it > work - it would have been very nice to carry a little MIG machine on the > boat - but it just won't do it: small-wire MIG just "paints" a > pretty-looking cover over the base metal, and that's it. There's just > not enough heat mass to get good penetration for any kind of serious > welding. Small-diameter flux core is worst of all: even less metal to > deposit, and dirty to boot. It's probably OK for thin sheet metal, but > I wouldn't waste my time with it for anything else. > > I do have at least a little bit of a bias against MIG as compared to > stick: stick is cheap, easy to power, and I can get however deep I want > into the base metal. Using MIG is more like playing pool with a wet > spaghetti noodle (err, that's from another comparison, but anyway. :) > Using 0.045" wire, which I got to do in school, is a *completely* > different ball game: almost like stick welding without having to feed > the electrode in manually. The other stuff is a toy. > > > Ben > -- | 27532|26545|2012-02-05 09:25:57|David Jones|Re: Basic welding questions|Gary, With all due respect, you don't give enough information in your description to understand what was going on with your breaking brackets. What is given is that you were making some kind of unknown geometery of bracket made from an unknown grade of 1/8" thick steel, with unknown weld preperation, unknown weld geometery and unknown welding parameters. You sent the brackets out for hot dipped galvanizing - no information if they would break prior to this step - but that they do break afterwards. And that this happened from 2 different welders. From this information, you condemn 0.035" welding wire and recommend to use 0.045" welding wire. My guess would be that you were making some kind of non full penetration fillet weld and the 0.035" wire didn't give you enough weld material to stand up to the geometery of the part. Moving to the 0.045" wire forced the weld penetration to be greater, giving you a more weld metal holding whatever part of the bracket was breaking. But there is just not enough information given to really comment. Neither is there enough information to condemn 0.035" wire... dj On Sun, 5 Feb 2012, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > Okay, > I’ll repeat this warning for the umpteenth time. I used to own a small > company where we welded thousands and thousands of small brackets from 1/8” > steel, which were subsequently hot dip galvanized. We had been using 0.035” > welding wire and the welds were really beautiful. Then one day a customer > calls and complains about the brackets breaking right off at the welds. I > found that hard to believe, so I went out in the warehouse and pulled a > couple of random brackets out of a basket containing about a thousand or > more. I stuck one in vice, then hit it with a hammer. It broke in two on > the first blow! I tested about twenty more, and broke at least another > five. We had a BIG problem! Ultimately we found that by switching to 0.045” > welding wire and using a lot more current but welding faster, the problem > went away completely. It took more skill to make the welds, but the welding > time was substantially less, and we could never break one welded this way. > At one point we decided to have an outside shop do the welding. They > protested that they never have weld failures with 0.035” wire, we must have > been doing something wrong. They then welded up 1000 brackets, and after > galvanizing we easily broke them. So they had to pay us for the materials > used, and weld another 1000 using the 0.045” wire we specified! Every time > I bring this up some experienced welder takes me to task. I suspect that > the hot dip galvanizing process exposes the lack of penetration in a way > you wouldn’t otherwise see. So I still specify 0.045” wire for all steel to > be hot dip galvanized. > > Gary H. Lucas > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27533|26545|2012-02-05 09:54:30|David Jones|Re: Basic welding questions|You are taking a welding class? That's great! I don't know what you have for equipment in your classroom but you probably have access to saws, grinders and sanders. I'd suggest you try the following: weld up T's. Take a piece of flat stock and weld a piece onto the middle of it make the T. Then take this piece and cut it longitudinally so you essentially end up with two T's. Now polish (grind and sand) the cut surface. The better you polish the easier it will be to see, think mirror polish. Ask your instructor if you have access to a macro etch. This is a chemical that you can apply to the polished surface and it will then "develop" the structure showing you the weld, the HAZ and the base metal. You will then be able to see the whole "anatomy" of your weld. If your instructor doesn't know what I'm talking about, ask here again, I'll explain more. Repeat this using 0.045" wire. Compare. Now, take that same geometry and grind a 45 degree bevel on the verticle piece you are going to weld to make the T and weld with the 0.035" wire. Compare to the two above. If you make a good weld on this sample, you'll find it looks more like the 0.045" weld above. dj On Sun, 5 Feb 2012, wild_explorer wrote: > > > I need to confirm, but I think we have 0.035 wires in MIGs in our welding > class. I am not trying to say it is right to use it for everything, it is > just what we are welding with. And most people in our class will not even > think to use something else after finishing the class. Same is with finding > the best settings for the welder. Sad, but true ;(. Hopefully, someone like > Gary will give them right specifications/settings/advice. > > I have noticed, that some settings corresponds to high current - means need > to have more expensive equipment. The bad part is, that there is no > indicator what the current is (voltage only for MIG). You need to use a > chart to find a current depending on wire's type & size, voltage, wire's > speed. > > P.S. I will try to find 0.045 wire and weld with it. Thanks Gary! > P.S.S I still feel more comfortable with stick welding ;)) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Feb 05, 2012 at 12:23:40AM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > Okay, > > > Iâ??ll repeat this warning for the umpteenth time. > > > > I love that story. :) > > > > > I suspect that the hot dip > > > galvanizing process exposes the lack of penetration in a way you > > > wouldnâ??t otherwise see. So I still specify 0.045â?? wire for all steel > > > to be hot dip galvanized. > > > > I'm not nearly as experienced as Gary, but what I _have_ done with MIG > > confirms the above. I've put a lot of time and effort into making it > > work - it would have been very nice to carry a little MIG machine on the > > boat - but it just won't do it: small-wire MIG just "paints" a > > pretty-looking cover over the base metal, and that's it. There's just > > not enough heat mass to get good penetration for any kind of serious > > welding. Small-diameter flux core is worst of all: even less metal to > > deposit, and dirty to boot. It's probably OK for thin sheet metal, but > > I wouldn't waste my time with it for anything else. > > > > I do have at least a little bit of a bias against MIG as compared to > > stick: stick is cheap, easy to power, and I can get however deep I want > > into the base metal. Using MIG is more like playing pool with a wet > > spaghetti noodle (err, that's from another comparison, but anyway. :) > > Using 0.045" wire, which I got to do in school, is a *completely* > > different ball game: almost like stick welding without having to feed > > the electrode in manually. The other stuff is a toy. > > > > > > Ben > > -- > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27534|26545|2012-02-05 11:50:33|Don & Karina|Re: Basic welding questions|Yesterday I welded up a piece of tube to a piece of flatbar 1/8" stock using 0.035 and do what I always do (because I don't weld that often.) I First got my settings to my satisfaction on a couple of scrap pieces, then welded the real thing. After that a test with a hammer and you should be good to go. Don B _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Jones Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 8:54 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions You are taking a welding class? That's great! I don't know what you have for equipment in your classroom but you probably have access to saws, grinders and sanders. I'd suggest you try the following: weld up T's. Take a piece of flat stock and weld a piece onto the middle of it make the T. Then take this piece and cut it longitudinally so you essentially end up with two T's. Now polish (grind and sand) the cut surface. The better you polish the easier it will be to see, think mirror polish. Ask your instructor if you have access to a macro etch. This is a chemical that you can apply to the polished surface and it will then "develop" the structure showing you the weld, the HAZ and the base metal. You will then be able to see the whole "anatomy" of your weld. If your instructor doesn't know what I'm talking about, ask here again, I'll explain more. Repeat this using 0.045" wire. Compare. Now, take that same geometry and grind a 45 degree bevel on the verticle piece you are going to weld to make the T and weld with the 0.035" wire. Compare to the two above. If you make a good weld on this sample, you'll find it looks more like the 0.045" weld above. dj On Sun, 5 Feb 2012, wild_explorer wrote: > > > I need to confirm, but I think we have 0.035 wires in MIGs in our welding > class. I am not trying to say it is right to use it for everything, it is > just what we are welding with. And most people in our class will not even > think to use something else after finishing the class. Same is with finding > the best settings for the welder. Sad, but true ;(. Hopefully, someone like > Gary will give them right specifications/settings/advice. > > I have noticed, that some settings corresponds to high current - means need > to have more expensive equipment. The bad part is, that there is no > indicator what the current is (voltage only for MIG). You need to use a > chart to find a current depending on wire's type & size, voltage, wire's > speed. > > P.S. I will try to find 0.045 wire and weld with it. Thanks Gary! > P.S.S I still feel more comfortable with stick welding ;)) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Feb 05, 2012 at 12:23:40AM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > Okay, > > > Iâ??ll repeat this warning for the umpteenth time. > > > > I love that story. :) > > > > > I suspect that the hot dip > > > galvanizing process exposes the lack of penetration in a way you > > > wouldnâ??t otherwise see. So I still specify 0.045â?? wire for all steel > > > to be hot dip galvanized. > > > > I'm not nearly as experienced as Gary, but what I _have_ done with MIG > > confirms the above. I've put a lot of time and effort into making it > > work - it would have been very nice to carry a little MIG machine on the > > boat - but it just won't do it: small-wire MIG just "paints" a > > pretty-looking cover over the base metal, and that's it. There's just > > not enough heat mass to get good penetration for any kind of serious > > welding. Small-diameter flux core is worst of all: even less metal to > > deposit, and dirty to boot. It's probably OK for thin sheet metal, but > > I wouldn't waste my time with it for anything else. > > > > I do have at least a little bit of a bias against MIG as compared to > > stick: stick is cheap, easy to power, and I can get however deep I want > > into the base metal. Using MIG is more like playing pool with a wet > > spaghetti noodle (err, that's from another comparison, but anyway. :) > > Using 0.045" wire, which I got to do in school, is a *completely* > > different ball game: almost like stick welding without having to feed > > the electrode in manually. The other stuff is a toy. > > > > > > Ben > > -- > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _____ size=1 width="100%" noshade color="#aca899" align=center> No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27535|26545|2012-02-05 17:31:00|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions|For the one off, boat I prefer stick welding. Far more forgiving and far harder to get a bad weld from. Cheaper too. I see no justification for the added expense and complexity of mig for a one off boat. It would take many boats to justify MIG. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hello Wild > I hate welding with the cheep, small dia. wire. I would sooner stick weld with a small diameter rod. The clean-up is a pain and it is not recommended for multi-pass welds. > I have welded with large diameter flux core wire and dual shield wires and they were much better/easier. The wire needs to feed out of the machine at a high rate with the small wire. > Now metal core wire is much nicer then hard wire and you can get a better weld. I see it used for heavy equipment alot. > Once you get into the larger diameter wire you are looking at a much bigger machine, $$$.I think you would be better off with a stick welder for boat building. That said I am welding most of the small parts for my boat in my shop using GMAW with .030 hard wire or TIG for the small stainless parts > James > > --- On Sat, 2/4/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Saturday, February 4, 2012, 11:24 AM > > > >   > > > > Finally I tried to weld with MIG (GMAW process). Not as easy as I expected ;) > > We are using GMAW-S, wire ER70S-6 (copper coated wire), 100% CO2, electrode positive. After welding with stick (SMAW process) it LOOKS like it is easier to weld with MIG. Not really ;) > > First of all, MIG requires more adjustments (wire speed, inductance, voltage, proper gas flow rate and gas settings in welder) and you still need to maintain proper distance to a metal for steady arc and keep steady travel speed. After welding with stick you still trying to "feed electrode" at first, instead of maintaining constant distance to the metal (easy to fix, but need to pay attention to it). > > From my very limited experience at this time I can see for MIG: > > Pros: Non-stop welding (not very helpful for boat welding), clean weld (no cleanup), easier to weld IF you found correct settings (I tried settings recommendations from Lincoln web-site and it does not work well for Miller welder). > > Cons: More expensive equipment, more settings, require gas (limited to welding inside a hull or in covered area), less mobility and accessability, still need a lot of practice. > > I was told that welding with flux-cored wire (which are used in small cheap MIG units) is MUCH easier than with gas/bare_wires. That may be why people say it is easier to weld with MIG than with stick. Any comments on it from people with experience? > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27536|27522|2012-02-05 17:32:06|brentswain38|Re: Swain 26 draft?|3 ft for the twin keels. I'll have to double check for the single . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Brent, > > What is the draft of your 26 ft plan ,with full keel and with twin keels > > > Thanks,Martin > | 27537|25493|2012-02-05 17:35:18|brentswain38|Re: Tom thumb 24|3.2 mm all around, 5mm on the keels and some of the hull bottom, 12mm for the keel bottoms. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > 3mm decks, 5mm hull on the Tom Thumb 24. > > What are the thicknesses on th BS 26 ? > > Matt > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I knew a guy in Canada who built a Tom Thumb and sailed it to New > > Zealand and back over a couple of years. When he first launched it, he > > didn't like it's performance at all. > > > > He cut the skinny full length keel off and put a long larger volume fin > > keel on it with a proper airfoil section. If I remember right, I also > > believe he put a skeg on with a separate rudder. The higher volume keel > > allowed him to put tanks in it and located the ballast lower. > > > > She ended up floating slightly higher, was more stable with the lower > > ballast, had more room due to the tankage in the keel and was faster and > > better balanced. He contacted the designer (Graham Shannon?) to tell him > > what he had done, but he wasn't interested. > > > > In my opinion, if you really want to build, I would go for the BS 26 > > footer. If you don't need to trailer it, go longer. The cost won't be > > that much more to go for 30 feet. Personally, I am not a fan of the > > short and fat designs. They have lots of room but they are a large and > > heavy displacement boats for their size....you might as well go longer > > for the same weight (and material cost) and have something that will sail. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > I agree with Paul. The Swain 30 is the perfect size for one or two people and won't cost much more to build than the 26 footer. > Rowland > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27538|27522|2012-02-05 18:05:20|martin demers|Re: Swain 26 draft?|Brent, what would you recommend it for sizewise? is it on that size that a swing keel was made? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 22:32:03 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 26 draft? 3 ft for the twin keels. I'll have to double check for the single . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Brent, > > What is the draft of your 26 ft plan ,with full keel and with twin keels > > > Thanks,Martin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27539|26545|2012-02-05 22:14:56|Paul Wilson|Re: Basic welding questions|I got my alloy mig ticket about a year ago. Part of the class was to weld a 10mm plate either side and then cut it into strips and test them in a press. I can say that it is possible to do an absolutely beautiful, fully penetrated weld on alloy which has almost no strength to it. With the cut plate polished you could see it was fully penetrated and with the bead much thicker than the surrounding plate. Each side of the test piece was then cut along each bead and put in the press. Once pressed, the weld would snap like dry toast rather than bend although it looked great. I remembered Gary's writing about welding, turned the heat much, much higher and went much faster, making sure the wire was melting and spraying into the weld pool. Strength was no problem after that although the finished weld looked the same as before. The plate would now bend either side of the weld and was much, much stronger. I think that most amateurs are tempted to keep the current down so that they can go slower with more control but this is a big mistake, particularly with aluminum alloy. Now when I see alloy motor boats with nice looking but cracked welds, I know the real reason for it. Appearance isn't everything. I always weld as hot as I can now and am pretty sure I have strong welds....thanks Gary. Cheers, Paul| 27540|26545|2012-02-06 01:01:37|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Basic welding questions|Dave, The welds that broke were not one configuration, there were several different joint designs, and the welding was done in different positions too. All the pieces were hot rolled steel, angle or flat, and some welded square tubing. In some cases the material was bent in the area of the weld, which removed the scale left from hot rolling. I wasn’t condemning 0.035” wire. Perfect welds can be made with 0.035” wire, especially on thinner gauges of material. We did in fact get a great many pieces where we simply could not break the welds. However, it came down to what do we need to do to ensure reliable welds over thousands of pieces. The only thing we changed was the wire size and the appropriate welder settings for that size. The problems went away completely, and reappeared every time someone tried using 0.035”. So all was doing is warning those who might be impressed by beautiful looking Mig welds that you need to be concerned about weld reliability. Gary H. Lucas From: David Jones Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 9:25 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions Gary, With all due respect, you don't give enough information in your description to understand what was going on with your breaking brackets. What is given is that you were making some kind of unknown geometery of bracket made from an unknown grade of 1/8" thick steel, with unknown weld preperation, unknown weld geometery and unknown welding parameters. You sent the brackets out for hot dipped galvanizing - no information if they would break prior to this step - but that they do break afterwards. And that this happened from 2 different welders. From this information, you condemn 0.035" welding wire and recommend to use 0.045" welding wire. My guess would be that you were making some kind of non full penetration fillet weld and the 0.035" wire didn't give you enough weld material to stand up to the geometery of the part. Moving to the 0.045" wire forced the weld penetration to be greater, giving you a more weld metal holding whatever part of the bracket was breaking. But there is just not enough information given to really comment. Neither is there enough information to condemn 0.035" wire... dj On Sun, 5 Feb 2012, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > Okay, > I’ll repeat this warning for the umpteenth time. I used to own a small > company where we welded thousands and thousands of small brackets from 1/8” > steel, which were subsequently hot dip galvanized. We had been using 0.035” > welding wire and the welds were really beautiful. Then one day a customer > calls and complains about the brackets breaking right off at the welds. I > found that hard to believe, so I went out in the warehouse and pulled a > couple of random brackets out of a basket containing about a thousand or > more. I stuck one in vice, then hit it with a hammer. It broke in two on > the first blow! I tested about twenty more, and broke at least another > five. We had a BIG problem! Ultimately we found that by switching to 0.045” > welding wire and using a lot more current but welding faster, the problem > went away completely. It took more skill to make the welds, but the welding > time was substantially less, and we could never break one welded this way. > At one point we decided to have an outside shop do the welding. They > protested that they never have weld failures with 0.035” wire, we must have > been doing something wrong. They then welded up 1000 brackets, and after > galvanizing we easily broke them. So they had to pay us for the materials > used, and weld another 1000 using the 0.045” wire we specified! Every time > I bring this up some experienced welder takes me to task. I suspect that > the hot dip galvanizing process exposes the lack of penetration in a way > you wouldn’t otherwise see. So I still specify 0.045” wire for all steel to > be hot dip galvanized. > > Gary H. Lucas > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27541|26545|2012-02-06 01:04:32|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Basic welding questions|Paul, You are talking about aluminum welding here, where the welding should be done using spray arc instead of short arc. It takes a big jump in wire speed and current to make the transition, and once you do it is like magic how much better the welding is. Gary H. Lucas From: Paul Wilson Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 10:12 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions I got my alloy mig ticket about a year ago. Part of the class was to weld a 10mm plate either side and then cut it into strips and test them in a press. I can say that it is possible to do an absolutely beautiful, fully penetrated weld on alloy which has almost no strength to it. With the cut plate polished you could see it was fully penetrated and with the bead much thicker than the surrounding plate. Each side of the test piece was then cut along each bead and put in the press. Once pressed, the weld would snap like dry toast rather than bend although it looked great. I remembered Gary's writing about welding, turned the heat much, much higher and went much faster, making sure the wire was melting and spraying into the weld pool. Strength was no problem after that although the finished weld looked the same as before. The plate would now bend either side of the weld and was much, much stronger. I think that most amateurs are tempted to keep the current down so that they can go slower with more control but this is a big mistake, particularly with aluminum alloy. Now when I see alloy motor boats with nice looking but cracked welds, I know the real reason for it. Appearance isn't everything. I always weld as hot as I can now and am pretty sure I have strong welds....thanks Gary. Cheers, Paul Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27542|25493|2012-02-06 14:05:32|Carl Volkwein|Re: Tom thumb 24|I beleave the Tom thumb is a Bruce Roberts design ________________________________ From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 8:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tom thumb 24   --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I knew a guy in Canada who built a Tom Thumb and sailed it to New > Zealand and back over a couple of years. When he first launched it, he > didn't like it's performance at all. > > He cut the skinny full length keel off and put a long larger volume fin > keel on it with a proper airfoil section. If I remember right, I also > believe he put a skeg on with a separate rudder. The higher volume keel > allowed him to put tanks in it and located the ballast lower. > > She ended up floating slightly higher, was more stable with the lower > ballast, had more room due to the tankage in the keel and was faster and > better balanced. He contacted the designer (Graham Shannon?) to tell him > what he had done, but he wasn't interested. > > In my opinion, if you really want to build, I would go for the BS 26 > footer. If you don't need to trailer it, go longer. The cost won't be > that much more to go for 30 feet. Personally, I am not a fan of the > short and fat designs. They have lots of room but they are a large and > heavy displacement boats for their size....you might as well go longer > for the same weight (and material cost) and have something that will sail. > > Cheers, Paul > I agree with Paul. The Swain 30 is the perfect size for one or two people and won't cost much more to build than the 26 footer. Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27543|25493|2012-02-06 14:44:12|Matt Malone|Re: Tom thumb 24|After reading some about the Tom Thumb 24, I have learned more about Bruce Roberts. Roberts appears to be a design house or publishing house with associates and adjuncts. Graham Shannon seems to have been a designer working for Roberts, or a freelance who sold his design to Roberts. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: carlvolkwein@... Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:04:30 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Tom thumb 24 I beleave the Tom thumb is a Bruce Roberts design ________________________________ From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 8:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tom thumb 24 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I knew a guy in Canada who built a Tom Thumb and sailed it to New > Zealand and back over a couple of years. When he first launched it, he > didn't like it's performance at all. > > He cut the skinny full length keel off and put a long larger volume fin > keel on it with a proper airfoil section. If I remember right, I also > believe he put a skeg on with a separate rudder. The higher volume keel > allowed him to put tanks in it and located the ballast lower. > > She ended up floating slightly higher, was more stable with the lower > ballast, had more room due to the tankage in the keel and was faster and > better balanced. He contacted the designer (Graham Shannon?) to tell him > what he had done, but he wasn't interested. > > In my opinion, if you really want to build, I would go for the BS 26 > footer. If you don't need to trailer it, go longer. The cost won't be > that much more to go for 30 feet. Personally, I am not a fan of the > short and fat designs. They have lots of room but they are a large and > heavy displacement boats for their size....you might as well go longer > for the same weight (and material cost) and have something that will sail. > > Cheers, Paul > I agree with Paul. The Swain 30 is the perfect size for one or two people and won't cost much more to build than the 26 footer. Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27544|25493|2012-02-06 14:51:28|Matt Malone|Orgami Plate thickness ?|I know plates become much stiffer and harder to curve when they become thicker. How thick is it practical to make an orgami hull ? This assumes hand tool winches etc, not hydraulic metal working machines. And what size boat (minimum) would this be suitable for ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 22:35:15 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tom thumb 24 3.2 mm all around, 5mm on the keels and some of the hull bottom, 12mm for the keel bottoms. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > 3mm decks, 5mm hull on the Tom Thumb 24. > > What are the thicknesses on th BS 26 ? > > Matt > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I knew a guy in Canada who built a Tom Thumb and sailed it to New > > Zealand and back over a couple of years. When he first launched it, he > > didn't like it's performance at all. > > > > He cut the skinny full length keel off and put a long larger volume fin > > keel on it with a proper airfoil section. If I remember right, I also > > believe he put a skeg on with a separate rudder. The higher volume keel > > allowed him to put tanks in it and located the ballast lower. > > > > She ended up floating slightly higher, was more stable with the lower > > ballast, had more room due to the tankage in the keel and was faster and > > better balanced. He contacted the designer (Graham Shannon?) to tell him > > what he had done, but he wasn't interested. > > > > In my opinion, if you really want to build, I would go for the BS 26 > > footer. If you don't need to trailer it, go longer. The cost won't be > > that much more to go for 30 feet. Personally, I am not a fan of the > > short and fat designs. They have lots of room but they are a large and > > heavy displacement boats for their size....you might as well go longer > > for the same weight (and material cost) and have something that will sail. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > I agree with Paul. The Swain 30 is the perfect size for one or two people and won't cost much more to build than the 26 footer. > Rowland > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27545|25493|2012-02-06 15:17:19|Paul Wilson|Re: Tom thumb 24|On 7/02/2012 8:44 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > After reading some about the Tom Thumb 24, I have learned more about Bruce Roberts. Roberts appears to be a design house or publishing house with associates and adjuncts. Graham Shannon seems to have been a designer working for Roberts, or a freelance who sold his design to Roberts. > > Matt > That is what I heard. Roberts designs are very hit and miss. Mostly miss. Brent can comment on ease of build :). Although not too bad of a design, I have been told that no Roberts 44 has ever been launched that floated to her designed waterline. The heavily promoted Spray series are real pigs sailing. I could be wrong but I think Shannon started doing a few yacht designs for Roberts and then went out on his own. He is most famous (to me) for his Amazon series of steel boats and his computer programs. http://www.bluebookofboats.com/Yachtdesigners/GrahameShannon.htm Cheers, Paul| 27546|25493|2012-02-06 18:00:09|brentswain38|Re: Orgami Plate thickness ?|The biggest origami boat I built was a 47 footer made out of 1/4 inch plate. I don't think a much bigger hull with 3/8th plate would be all that difficult to do, especially using chain blocks. Friends did a 53 footer out of 1/4 plate. The question is , what would you want with such a huge boat? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I know plates become much stiffer and harder to curve when they become thicker. How thick is it practical to make an orgami hull ? This assumes hand tool winches etc, not hydraulic metal working machines. And what size boat (minimum) would this be suitable for ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 22:35:15 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tom thumb 24 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.2 mm all around, 5mm on the keels and some of the hull bottom, 12mm for the keel bottoms. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > > > > > 3mm decks, 5mm hull on the Tom Thumb 24. > > > > > > What are the thicknesses on th BS 26 ? > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > I knew a guy in Canada who built a Tom Thumb and sailed it to New > > > > Zealand and back over a couple of years. When he first launched it, he > > > > didn't like it's performance at all. > > > > > > > > He cut the skinny full length keel off and put a long larger volume fin > > > > keel on it with a proper airfoil section. If I remember right, I also > > > > believe he put a skeg on with a separate rudder. The higher volume keel > > > > allowed him to put tanks in it and located the ballast lower. > > > > > > > > She ended up floating slightly higher, was more stable with the lower > > > > ballast, had more room due to the tankage in the keel and was faster and > > > > better balanced. He contacted the designer (Graham Shannon?) to tell him > > > > what he had done, but he wasn't interested. > > > > > > > > In my opinion, if you really want to build, I would go for the BS 26 > > > > footer. If you don't need to trailer it, go longer. The cost won't be > > > > that much more to go for 30 feet. Personally, I am not a fan of the > > > > short and fat designs. They have lots of room but they are a large and > > > > heavy displacement boats for their size....you might as well go longer > > > > for the same weight (and material cost) and have something that will sail. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > I agree with Paul. The Swain 30 is the perfect size for one or two people and won't cost much more to build than the 26 footer. > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27547|25493|2012-02-06 18:01:36|brentswain38|Re: Tom thumb 24|Grahame Shanon has also designed some large aluminium origami boats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > On 7/02/2012 8:44 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > After reading some about the Tom Thumb 24, I have learned more about Bruce Roberts. Roberts appears to be a design house or publishing house with associates and adjuncts. Graham Shannon seems to have been a designer working for Roberts, or a freelance who sold his design to Roberts. > > > > Matt > > > That is what I heard. Roberts designs are very hit and miss. Mostly > miss. Brent can comment on ease of build :). Although not too bad of a > design, I have been told that no Roberts 44 has ever been launched that > floated to her designed waterline. The heavily promoted Spray series > are real pigs sailing. I could be wrong but I think Shannon started > doing a few yacht designs for Roberts and then went out on his own. He > is most famous (to me) for his Amazon series of steel boats and his > computer programs. > > http://www.bluebookofboats.com/Yachtdesigners/GrahameShannon.htm > > Cheers, Paul > | 27548|25493|2012-02-07 07:31:00|Matt Malone|Re: Orgami Plate thickness ?|I was just curious about the limits of plate thickness, given hand tools, and the orgami method. I was asking because a smaller boat with a thicker hull would have some uses, and in general, making things out of curved metal, I was interested in the limits. I have a piece of 1/8" steel I welded up to become a funnel shape, but I am having terrible trouble rolling it to a funnel without machines. It is small, and the metal is very tough, a low alloy, high strength steel from a scrap yard... I kind of wish I had selected a different piece now. The application is not in a boat. I am thinking I might have to make a brake-like device able to fold to a different angle at one end than the other, and form the cone from a series of small folds. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 22:59:51 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Orgami Plate thickness ? The biggest origami boat I built was a 47 footer made out of 1/4 inch plate. I don't think a much bigger hull with 3/8th plate would be all that difficult to do, especially using chain blocks. Friends did a 53 footer out of 1/4 plate. The question is , what would you want with such a huge boat? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I know plates become much stiffer and harder to curve when they become thicker. How thick is it practical to make an orgami hull ? This assumes hand tool winches etc, not hydraulic metal working machines. And what size boat (minimum) would this be suitable for ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 22:35:15 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tom thumb 24 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.2 mm all around, 5mm on the keels and some of the hull bottom, 12mm for the keel bottoms. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > > > > > 3mm decks, 5mm hull on the Tom Thumb 24. > > > > > > What are the thicknesses on th BS 26 ? > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > I knew a guy in Canada who built a Tom Thumb and sailed it to New > > > > Zealand and back over a couple of years. When he first launched it, he > > > > didn't like it's performance at all. > > > > > > > > He cut the skinny full length keel off and put a long larger volume fin > > > > keel on it with a proper airfoil section. If I remember right, I also > > > > believe he put a skeg on with a separate rudder. The higher volume keel > > > > allowed him to put tanks in it and located the ballast lower. > > > > > > > > She ended up floating slightly higher, was more stable with the lower > > > > ballast, had more room due to the tankage in the keel and was faster and > > > > better balanced. He contacted the designer (Graham Shannon?) to tell him > > > > what he had done, but he wasn't interested. > > > > > > > > In my opinion, if you really want to build, I would go for the BS 26 > > > > footer. If you don't need to trailer it, go longer. The cost won't be > > > > that much more to go for 30 feet. Personally, I am not a fan of the > > > > short and fat designs. They have lots of room but they are a large and > > > > heavy displacement boats for their size....you might as well go longer > > > > for the same weight (and material cost) and have something that will sail. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > I agree with Paul. The Swain 30 is the perfect size for one or two people and won't cost much more to build than the 26 footer. > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27549|25493|2012-02-07 10:26:50|wild_explorer|Re: Orgami Plate thickness ?|May be these links....??? http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_amount_of_force_is_needed_to_bend_metal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_773.html This links look like a whole book on very complex subject: http://solidmechanics.org/text/Chapter1_1/Chapter1_1.htm As I understand, it depends on metal thickness and radius of bending, if bending reversible or irreversible (minimum reversible radius for given thickness of metal should be some table). Another limit for small steel boats is the LOADED boat's weight and fitting it into designed displacement (which will dictate MAX metal thickness/weight for empty boat). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I was just curious about the limits of plate thickness, given hand tools, and the orgami method. I was asking because a smaller boat with a thicker hull would have some uses, and in general, making things out of curved metal, I was interested in the limits. I have a piece of 1/8" steel I welded up to become a funnel shape, but I am having terrible trouble rolling it to a funnel without machines. It is small, and the metal is very tough, a low alloy, high strength steel from a scrap yard... I kind of wish I had selected a different piece now. The application is not in a boat. I am thinking I might have to make a brake-like device able to fold to a different angle at one end than the other, and form the cone from a series of small folds. > > Matt | 27550|25493|2012-02-07 11:25:18|Matt Malone|Re: Orgami Plate thickness ?|Thank you Wild. BTW, thank you for kicking off a new round of Basic Welding Questions -- all of the material you gave, and what came in the follow-on replies was new to me, and useful as I look at my welding equipment and possibly purchasing another unit. Calculating stuff is what I do, and I can say that those links are not really wrong, but not really useful either. It is really hard to calculate anything with membrane (sheet / cylinder / cone / shell ) structures. It depends so much on geometry, and how much something is bent, and how thick it is, and what it is made out of. The math is hard. Getting the wrong shape is easy if one proceeds without experience, or guidance. I look at the English Wheel metal forming machines at Princess Auto and go, sure an experienced worker can make a car fender, and an expert can make two fenders that are mirror images of each other and close enough to make them match. I get the feeling if I tried an English Wheel, I would just make deformed pringles. With experience one can get a feel for how hard some particular shape change is. That is what I was trying to access. Experience. Now that you have brought it up... The first link: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_amount_of_force_is_needed_to_bend_metal They say nothing of the shape or cross-section before giving the tons figures.... Tons per square inch at least would be a measure of yield strength and with enough equations, one could figure out the load required at a point to bend a particular shape. I have bent coat hanger with my hands, and, I sure did not apply tons, however, in the wire, the force did reached tons per square inch. Its all about geometry. For instance, a conduit bender: http://www.totalrentalofmolalla.com/prod_images/full/halfinto5inconduitbender.jpg is really cool and capable because of the geometry of leverage. I have bent conduit and stainless pipe. My feeling of bending stainless pipe was, it was harder than Mild Steel, where the answers page seems to suggest it would be easier. In any case, there is not much in the way of useful answers on that page. I would not recommend it. The next two, on Young's Modulus are answering the wrong question. Bending something means to yield it, and make it take on a new shape. Young's Modulus is how much force to bend it like a spring that springs back to the old shape. Apples and oranges. Yield strength is more important to bending. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_%28engineering%29 The chapter on Solid Mechanics is cool, and gives an idea of solid mechanics in certain situations. It is only an introduction and provides no practical tools for application to a particular situation that the reader might choose. It does give a taste of the math involved toward the bottom of the chapter. Even if the entire book is on-line, because it is not aimed at this audience, I would not call it practical. More realistically, I think it is impractical to ask this community to do solid mechanics. Even if solid mechanics were within the realm of practicality here, it is the theory of shells, a particular specialty of solid mechanics that is needed. Even then a even narrower specialty "develop-ability" if I have the term right is needed to really look at the shapes Origami Boats finds interesting. If someone is equipped to do this by the math route -- both in training and supported by expensive computer analysis tools -- then I am sure they first thing they would ask is, what is the exact equation for the shape of whatever it is that we are talking about. Lets take for example, the most-built BS model, and ask, does anyone know, to less than a centimeter, the final 3-D shape of an orgami ? Yes, the plate shapes are known well, developed by Brent over time, and the final shape is generally known, but without an equation, those computer analysis tools don't know where to start. And it is not the easy rolled shape aspects that determine how hard it is to make something, it is the coning, and even more so, there very small amounts of 3D curvature that really determine how hard it is to form. Brent and others have done it, and know how hard it is from experience. So, I was asking the question from the other side, from the former's experience, how thick can one get and still work it with hand tools. Like the English Wheel and fender example, having someone tell me they can make a random shape, say a fender out of 1/8" steel does not mean I will be able to do it. But it is useful to know the practical limitations that others have found from experience, even if the experience is on a different shape then I might think about. I found the discussion of 0.035 and 0.045 wire very interesting, and the alloy welding information very interesting. The fact that one might get a good looking weld that is not strong in a practical test is informative. It makes me appreciate the stick welding process more. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 15:26:47 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Orgami Plate thickness ? May be these links....??? http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_amount_of_force_is_needed_to_bend_metal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_773.html This links look like a whole book on very complex subject: http://solidmechanics.org/text/Chapter1_1/Chapter1_1.htm As I understand, it depends on metal thickness and radius of bending, if bending reversible or irreversible (minimum reversible radius for given thickness of metal should be some table). Another limit for small steel boats is the LOADED boat's weight and fitting it into designed displacement (which will dictate MAX metal thickness/weight for empty boat). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I was just curious about the limits of plate thickness, given hand tools, and the orgami method. I was asking because a smaller boat with a thicker hull would have some uses, and in general, making things out of curved metal, I was interested in the limits. I have a piece of 1/8" steel I welded up to become a funnel shape, but I am having terrible trouble rolling it to a funnel without machines. It is small, and the metal is very tough, a low alloy, high strength steel from a scrap yard... I kind of wish I had selected a different piece now. The application is not in a boat. I am thinking I might have to make a brake-like device able to fold to a different angle at one end than the other, and form the cone from a series of small folds. > > Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27551|25493|2012-02-07 13:50:12|wild_explorer|Re: Orgami Plate thickness ?|I tried to find some simple table - like "how much force needed to bend a sheet of metal plate of some thickness to cylinder/arc/cone of given diameter/radius"... I could not find it. May be it is need to look harder on Internet. I agree, all formulas have almost Zero information for practical boat builder. I would prefer some practical table for a reference ;) I found some tables for brake presses, but it applies for very small radius (irreversible bending) for metal sheet. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > Calculating stuff is what I do, and I can say that those links are not really wrong, but not really useful either. It is really hard to calculate anything with membrane (sheet / cylinder / cone / shell ) structures. It depends so much on geometry, and how much something is bent, and how thick it is, and what it is made out of. The math is hard. Getting the wrong shape is easy if one proceeds without experience, or guidance. > > | 27552|25493|2012-02-07 14:43:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Orgami Plate thickness ?|On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 06:50:10PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > I tried to find some simple table - like "how much force needed to > bend a sheet of metal plate of some thickness to cylinder/arc/cone of > given diameter/radius"... I could not find it. May be it is need to > look harder on Internet. Heh. I seriously doubt that you'll find anything as simple as a table; formulas (ones involving differential equations and multivariate calculus to understand, at the very least) are far more likely. With that kind of question, you're very close to asking "how high is 'up'?" I suppose you could hire, say, 10,000 cheap laborers, put each one of them in front of a brake with a strain and acceleration gauge attached to the handle, and stack up 1 sq.ft. sheets of mild steel of a clearly-defined grade at about 1000 sheets for each unit of thickness, with maybe some kind of a gauge that rejected any sheet that was initially out of true, then run a Monte Carlo experiment and tabulate the data. The cost might be a bit high, and you might have to rent a temperature-controlled city (?) for the experimental platform, but you'd at least have some rule-of-thumb data... :) (Point being, humor aside, that there are *a lot* of variables that affect it - and many of them are not very controllable outside a lab. You really _can't_ say much more than 'foot-wide flat sheet of 1/8" mild on *this* brake... maybe 100 pounds to get it started'. Very much the ballpark.) Given the basic principle of origami - that adding curvature to sheet metal makes it far stiffer (i.e., increases its resistance to bending) - I'm actually a bit surprised to see you asking this kind of question. :) Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27553|25493|2012-02-07 15:52:59|wild_explorer|Re: Orgami Plate thickness ?|As I remember, original question was about making funnel shape ;) Some data for BASIC forms (tube, cone, arc) made from sheet metal should be available - it is developable shapes. Designers of bending equipment should have such data. It would be nice to know what amount of force is required to make/fold such forms depending on diameter and plate thickness. We are not talking about Origami's double curved shapes. That discussion was in "Stiffness of Origami" (or similar thread). Brent already has proved what equipment is required to fold Origami hull, so it is not a discussion about possibility to do so, but more about estimates for possible new projects ;) May be someone has such data? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 06:50:10PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > > I tried to find some simple table - like "how much force needed to > > bend a sheet of metal plate of some thickness to cylinder/arc/cone of > > given diameter/radius"... I could not find it. May be it is need to > > look harder on Internet. > > Heh. I seriously doubt that you'll find anything as simple as a table; > formulas (ones involving differential equations and multivariate > calculus to understand, at the very least) are far more likely. With > that kind of question, you're very close to asking "how high is 'up'?" > | 27554|25493|2012-02-07 16:46:07|Stan Philippon|Re: Orgami Plate thickness ?|If crudity is not an issue a crosspean hammer and a piece of channel iron will do. cut two pie shaped wedges and weld them together after shaping. -----Stan >I was just curious about the limits of plate thickness, given hand >tools, and the orgami method. I was asking because a smaller boat >with a thicker hull would have some uses, and in general, making >things out of curved metal, I was interested in the limits. I have >a piece of 1/8" steel I welded up to become a funnel shape, but I am >having terrible trouble rolling it to a funnel without >machines. It is small, and the metal is very tough, a low alloy, >high strength steel from a scrap yard... I kind of wish I had >selected a different piece now. The application is not in a >boat. I am thinking I might have to make a brake-like device able >to fold to a different angle at one end than the other, and form the >cone from a series of small folds. > >Matt > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >From: brentswain38@... >Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 22:59:51 +0000 >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Orgami Plate thickness ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The biggest origami boat I built was a 47 footer made out of > 1/4 inch plate. I don't think a much bigger hull with 3/8th plate > would be all that difficult to do, especially using chain > blocks. Friends did a 53 footer out of 1/4 plate. > >The question is , what would you want with such a huge boat? > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I know plates become much stiffer and harder to curve when they > become thicker. How thick is it practical to make an orgami hull > ? This assumes hand tool winches etc, not hydraulic metal working > machines. And what size boat (minimum) would this be suitable for ? > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 22:35:15 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tom thumb 24 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.2 mm all around, 5mm on the keels and some of the hull > bottom, 12mm for the keel bottoms. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3mm decks, 5mm hull on the Tom Thumb 24. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the thicknesses on th BS 26 ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I knew a guy in Canada who built a Tom Thumb and sailed it to New > > > > > > > > Zealand and back over a couple of years. When he first launched it, he > > > > > > > > didn't like it's performance at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He cut the skinny full length keel off and put a long larger volume fin > > > > > > > > keel on it with a proper airfoil section. If I remember right, I also > > > > > > > > believe he put a skeg on with a separate rudder. The higher volume keel > > > > > > > > allowed him to put tanks in it and located the ballast lower. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She ended up floating slightly higher, was more stable with the lower > > > > > > > > ballast, had more room due to the tankage in the keel and was > faster and > > > > > > > > better balanced. He contacted the designer (Graham Shannon?) > to tell him > > > > > > > > what he had done, but he wasn't interested. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my opinion, if you really want to build, I would go for the BS 26 > > > > > > > > footer. If you don't need to trailer it, go longer. The cost won't be > > > > > > > > that much more to go for 30 feet. Personally, I am not a fan of the > > > > > > > > short and fat designs. They have lots of room but they are a large and > > > > > > > > heavy displacement boats for their size....you might as well go longer > > > > > > > > for the same weight (and material cost) and have something > that will sail. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Paul. The Swain 30 is the perfect size for one or > two people and won't cost much more to build than the 26 footer. > > > > > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------------------ > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27555|25493|2012-02-07 16:56:21|brentswain38|Re: Orgami Plate thickness ?|Draw your cone. Continue the line from the top of the cone to the point. That is your outer radius. Draw where the bottom of the cone is cut for your spigot. The distance from that to the point is your inner radius. Calculate the circumference of the top of the funnel, cut any circumference over that, from the circumference of the piece you end up with, and draw straight lines from that to the point. Now you have your funnel pattern. I once made a funnel on a 180 ton brake press out of 1/2 inch plate.The reason we used half inch plate is so , once it was welded together, we could machine it down to a far more accurate 1/4 inch, and not run out of material. Even with a brake press, we had to assume it would be anything but accurate. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > As I remember, original question was about making funnel shape ;) > > Some data for BASIC forms (tube, cone, arc) made from sheet metal should be available - it is developable shapes. Designers of bending equipment should have such data. > > It would be nice to know what amount of force is required to make/fold such forms depending on diameter and plate thickness. > > We are not talking about Origami's double curved shapes. That discussion was in "Stiffness of Origami" (or similar thread). > > Brent already has proved what equipment is required to fold Origami hull, so it is not a discussion about possibility to do so, but more about estimates for possible new projects ;) > > May be someone has such data? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 06:50:10PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > > > I tried to find some simple table - like "how much force needed to > > > bend a sheet of metal plate of some thickness to cylinder/arc/cone of > > > given diameter/radius"... I could not find it. May be it is need to > > > look harder on Internet. > > > > Heh. I seriously doubt that you'll find anything as simple as a table; > > formulas (ones involving differential equations and multivariate > > calculus to understand, at the very least) are far more likely. With > > that kind of question, you're very close to asking "how high is 'up'?" > > > | 27556|25493|2012-02-07 16:59:06|brentswain38|Re: Orgami Plate thickness ?|The bigger the boat the more length (leverage) you have. The smallest origami boat I've built is my aluminium dinghy, 7 ft 6 inches. Was hard to bang into shape with 1/8th aluminium. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I know plates become much stiffer and harder to curve when they become thicker. How thick is it practical to make an orgami hull ? This assumes hand tool winches etc, not hydraulic metal working machines. And what size boat (minimum) would this be suitable for ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 22:35:15 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tom thumb 24 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.2 mm all around, 5mm on the keels and some of the hull bottom, 12mm for the keel bottoms. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > > > > > 3mm decks, 5mm hull on the Tom Thumb 24. > > > > > > What are the thicknesses on th BS 26 ? > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > I knew a guy in Canada who built a Tom Thumb and sailed it to New > > > > Zealand and back over a couple of years. When he first launched it, he > > > > didn't like it's performance at all. > > > > > > > > He cut the skinny full length keel off and put a long larger volume fin > > > > keel on it with a proper airfoil section. If I remember right, I also > > > > believe he put a skeg on with a separate rudder. The higher volume keel > > > > allowed him to put tanks in it and located the ballast lower. > > > > > > > > She ended up floating slightly higher, was more stable with the lower > > > > ballast, had more room due to the tankage in the keel and was faster and > > > > better balanced. He contacted the designer (Graham Shannon?) to tell him > > > > what he had done, but he wasn't interested. > > > > > > > > In my opinion, if you really want to build, I would go for the BS 26 > > > > footer. If you don't need to trailer it, go longer. The cost won't be > > > > that much more to go for 30 feet. Personally, I am not a fan of the > > > > short and fat designs. They have lots of room but they are a large and > > > > heavy displacement boats for their size....you might as well go longer > > > > for the same weight (and material cost) and have something that will sail. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > I agree with Paul. The Swain 30 is the perfect size for one or two people and won't cost much more to build than the 26 footer. > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27557|27522|2012-02-07 17:00:58|brentswain38|Re: Swain 26 draft?|I don't understand your question. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent, > > what would you recommend it for sizewise? > is it on that size that a swing keel was made? > > Martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 22:32:03 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 26 draft? > > > > > > > 3 ft for the twin keels. I'll have to double check for the single . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > What is the draft of your 26 ft plan ,with full keel and with twin keels > > > > > > Thanks,Martin > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27558|27522|2012-02-07 17:47:11|martin demers|Re: Swain 26 draft?|Sorry, Here I reformulate my questions, For wich kind of sailing would you recommend the Swain 26ft? Also, if I remember well, you once mentioned that a swing keel was installed on one of your design, was it on a 26ft? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:00:56 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 26 draft? I don't understand your question. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent, > > what would you recommend it for sizewise? > is it on that size that a swing keel was made? > > Martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 22:32:03 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 26 draft? > > > > > > > 3 ft for the twin keels. I'll have to double check for the single . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > What is the draft of your 26 ft plan ,with full keel and with twin keels > > > > > > Thanks,Martin > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27559|27522|2012-02-07 17:59:52|Paul Wilson|Painting topsides.|Should I apply the topcoat on the tacky epoxy paint or should I wait until the next day? I am using a water-based acrylic for the topcoats. I would like maximum adhesion and don't want to have to sand between coats. Cheers and thanks, Paul| 27560|27522|2012-02-07 18:58:01|Paul Thompson|Re: Painting topsides.|Paul, I'd apply it to the tacky epoxy. I did it on mine and hat no problems. I'd have to look up exactly what I used but off my head Altex Altrabuild 540 and Resene acrylic waterbase roof paint. Used the hi gloss which is not very glossy at all. Paul Thompson On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > Should I apply the topcoat on the tacky epoxy paint or should I wait > until the next day? > > I am using a water-based acrylic for the topcoats.  I would like maximum > adhesion and don't want to have to sand between coats. > > Cheers and thanks, Paul > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 27561|27522|2012-02-07 22:44:15|Paul Wilson|Re: Painting topsides.|Ok, thanks. Hopefully the weather will hold tomorrow. Cheers, Paul On 8/02/2012 12:58 p.m., Paul Thompson wrote: > > Paul, > > I'd apply it to the tacky epoxy. I did it on mine and hat no problems. > I'd have to look up exactly what I used but off my head Altex > Altrabuild 540 and Resene acrylic waterbase roof paint. Used the hi > gloss which is not very glossy at all. > > Paul Thompson > > On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > Should I apply the topcoat on the tacky epoxy paint or should I wait > > until the next day? > > > > I am using a water-based acrylic for the topcoats. I would like maximum > > adhesion and don't want to have to sand between coats. > > > > Cheers and thanks, Paul > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > | 27562|26545|2012-02-08 22:33:04|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Some information about GMAW @ FCAW from Miller web-site: Thickness, Type of Application and Parameter Settings Many novice operators attempt to use "a-one-size-fits-all" wire and shielding gas combination for multiple applications. The most common wire and gas combinations (for solid wire) are .035-inch diameter wire used with a 75 percent Argon and 25 percent CO2 shielding gas. When welding thicker material, however, consideration needs to be given to welding power source output, as well as welding wire diameter. If the .035-inch wire is selected for thicker materials, and the power source is one that is plugged into a 115-volt circuit, the resulting amperage output may not be sufficient to make quality welds. The chance of "cold lap" or "lack of fusion" may increase. Attempting to use too small of a solid wire for thicker applications (such as on A-frames of an automobile), increases the chance of lower penetration in the root, and could require more than one welding pass. Misapplication of the solid wire (even though strong enough) may also not provide adequate penetration on thicker material. Although more expensive than solid wire, flux cored wire could help you gain productivity. Flux cored wire typically has the ability to handle the welding of dirtier materials that may have higher levels of rust, mill scale, or oil. Although cleaning is always the proper method of preparing the steel, flux cored wires contain de-oxidizing elements that trap these contaminants in the weld pool and hold them in the slag coverage typically preventing the associated weld problems found when welding "dirtier" steels. Flux cored wire also increases penetration on the side walls and offers the advantage of better deposition rates (the amount of weld metal deposited in a given time period, measured in pounds per hour) when compared to solid wire. Although the operator is initially spending more on materials for flux cored wire, the savings are realized in the decreased production time. Notes (mine): GMAW uses DC+ FCAW uses DC- CO2 gas gives more sidewall penetration| 27563|27563|2012-02-08 22:48:56|hjc.jansen|26 plan and book and dvd for sale in europe|hi everybody, I quit the project and am willing to sell my stuff for half price. So if anyone here in Europe is interested in Brents book, the 26´ plan, Alexes video, Carls picture DVD, a lot of english steel boatbuilding books, a 180 amps inverter welding machine and the steel boat construction book by Anton Luft (German, but very interesting), please mail me at heike.spo@... or hjc.jansen60@... in english or german. regards, Heike| 27564|27522|2012-02-08 22:53:29|brentswain38|Re: Swain 26 draft?|Good for sailing anywhere. The one done with the swing keel was the one which Winston sailed thru the NW passage. Ice could force twin keels together , no matter how strongly you built them. As shallow draft was necessary, a swing keel was the only option. For anywhere else, I would recommend twin keels ; no moving parts, and only slightly more draft. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Sorry, > Here I reformulate my questions, > > For wich kind of sailing would you recommend the Swain 26ft? > > Also, if I remember well, you once mentioned that a swing keel was installed on one of your design, was it on a 26ft? > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:00:56 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 26 draft? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand your question. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > what would you recommend it for sizewise? > > > is it on that size that a swing keel was made? > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 22:32:03 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 26 draft? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 ft for the twin keels. I'll have to double check for the single . > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > What is the draft of your 26 ft plan ,with full keel and with twin keels > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27565|27522|2012-02-08 22:54:48|brentswain38|Re: Painting topsides.|Put it on tacky or wet epoxy , or it will fall off in sheets. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Should I apply the topcoat on the tacky epoxy paint or should I wait > until the next day? > > I am using a water-based acrylic for the topcoats. I would like maximum > adhesion and don't want to have to sand between coats. > > Cheers and thanks, Paul > | 27566|26545|2012-02-08 22:56:31|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Flux Cored Wire Welding (FCAW) Uses the same equipment as MIG welding and works as well as Stick on dirty, rusty material. Gasless Flux Cored wire welding is the most common process in construction. • Requires CV (constant-voltage) power source, portable wire feeder and gasless gun. • Self-shielded Flux Cored doesn't require an external cylinder of shielding gas (shielding is in the wire). This is useful for outside work, where external shielding gas could be blown away. • The weld is similar to Stick welding, where slag must be removed from the weld after welding. Use a chipping hammer and a wire brush. • Self-shielded Flux Cored is generally harder to accomplish on thin metals than MIG welding. • Provides deep penetration for welding thick sections and increased metal deposition rate. • Use a drag (pull) gun technique. • Keep the wire clean and dry for best weld results. Wire - Flux Cored/Carbon-Steel E71TGX • No shielding gas required • Excellent for outdoor windy conditions • For dirty, rusty, painted materials • Hotter than solid wires, welds to 18 gauge materials and thicker Note: I was unable to find any data sheet for this wire (no information on Lincoln web-site. Discontinued???). Source: www.millerwelds.com/pdf/07RentalCatalog.pdf (pages 4,5) More commonly used Self-Shielded wires are: E71T-GS (in cheap welders) E71T-1* (FCAW-S series, different manufacturers) http://www.lincolnelectric.ca/knowledge/articles/content/fcwawire.asp http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/consumables/flux-cored-wires-self-shielded/Pages/flux-cored-wires-self-shielded.aspx| 27567|26545|2012-02-09 00:51:08|Aaron|Re: Basic welding questions|Flux-Cored Welding Wire — E71T-11 Carbon-Steel Great in single- or multi-pass welds particularly on thin-gauge mild or galvanized steel. Typically used for light structural, machinery part fabrication, prefab construction, railroad car repair, short assembly welds, tanks and general fabrication. Wire Diameter 2 lb. Spool 10 lb. Spool .030" #H222106-R19 #H222106-R22 .035" #H222108-R19 #H222108-R22 Aaron From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2012 6:56 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions   Flux Cored Wire Welding (FCAW) Uses the same equipment as MIG welding and works as well as Stick on dirty, rusty material. Gasless Flux Cored wire welding is the most common process in construction. • Requires CV (constant-voltage) power source, portable wire feeder and gasless gun. • Self-shielded Flux Cored doesn't require an external cylinder of shielding gas (shielding is in the wire). This is useful for outside work, where external shielding gas could be blown away. • The weld is similar to Stick welding, where slag must be removed from the weld after welding. Use a chipping hammer and a wire brush. • Self-shielded Flux Cored is generally harder to accomplish on thin metals than MIG welding. • Provides deep penetration for welding thick sections and increased metal deposition rate. • Use a drag (pull) gun technique. • Keep the wire clean and dry for best weld results. Wire - Flux Cored/Carbon-Steel E71TGX • No shielding gas required • Excellent for outdoor windy conditions • For dirty, rusty, painted materials • Hotter than solid wires, welds to 18 gauge materials and thicker Note: I was unable to find any data sheet for this wire (no information on Lincoln web-site. Discontinued???). Source: www.millerwelds.com/pdf/07RentalCatalog.pdf (pages 4,5) More commonly used Self-Shielded wires are: E71T-GS (in cheap welders) E71T-1* (FCAW-S series, different manufacturers) http://www.lincolnelectric.ca/knowledge/articles/content/fcwawire.asp http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/consumables/flux-cored-wires-self-shielded/Pages/flux-cored-wires-self-shielded.aspx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27568|26545|2012-02-09 13:00:13|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|MIG welding maybe essential for Aluminum, for thin metals or for automatic welding, but looks like it is not worth of troubles for welding on a small steel boat (but may be beneficial in some areas on a boat). What I already do NOT like about MIG compare to stick welding: 1. Not simple - Complex setup and equipment (depends on chosen wire+gas pair). Uses gas (unless it is FCAW wires). Usually requires more power. Read www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/en_US/Products/.../C4200.pdf - it has VERY good information about MIG processes, setup and welding. 2. Air/gas cooled Gun blocks vision to the puddle. Tilting gun even 10 deg reduce penetration. 3. Need to hold Gun's trigger (unless it has ability for single trigger press start/stop) 4. Quality air (gas) cooled MIG gun has duty cycle ~ 60% or less. 5. Usually, affordable MIG welders (< $1000) have duty cycle 20-30% and accept wires only up to o.o35" (no 0.045") 6. MIG wires have "current saturation" (optimal operation only in certain wire speed range and current/voltage range for given wire's size. After it wire's speed goes exponential to get more current. 6. Hard to switch wires (with stick just take different electrode and change settings) 7. MIG gun requires frequent cleaning and gas flow rate check. 8. Some safety hazard for a welder who welds with inert gases heavier than air in confined spaces (gas displaces air). May be I forgot something, I will add it later ;) P.S. I probably need to do a test as David suggested (weld with 1/8 E6011 electrode, 0.035" and 0.045" wires) and see what the difference in penetration is. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > For the one off, boat I prefer stick welding. Far more forgiving and far harder to get a bad weld from. Cheaper too. I see no justification for the added expense and complexity of mig for a one off boat. It would take many boats to justify MIG. > | 27569|26545|2012-02-09 18:37:35|Uncle Salty|Re: Basic welding questions|One of the keys for avoiding lack of fusion/ cold lap is to stay on the leading edge of the puddle- if you fall back on the puddle- to maybe increase bead size- you're probly not cutting into the base metal and tying everything together. Short arc mig is a process designed for sheetmetal work after all, and lacks the punch to penetrate the cushion of molten metal when you fall back of the leading edge. Same reason joint prep, cleaning is important for hard wire. ( plus there is no fluxing agent ) The "mechanics" are less tolerant - torch angle, stick out, travel speed, and the pattern or motion must be minded. Mind your ABCs and don't try to stretch it- if you want a bigger bead, crank it up or jump to the next wire size. I have seen perfect looking welds separate along the toeline to base metal area with no stress at all applied, only shrinkage from cooling. A little unsettling for a marine application. Not condemning the process, just a heads up. Sent from my iPhone| 27570|26545|2012-02-09 19:32:10|Paul Wilson|Re: Basic welding questions|I have been told that on high pressure oil and gas pipelines they only use stick welding unless it is worth the time setting up an automated wire feed welder. This is normally done on pipeline laying barges offshore or on very large pipelines onshore. I assume the reason for this is that without the automation, the quality control with wire feed is not adequate in such critical applications. Cheers, Paul On 10/02/2012 11:20 a.m., Uncle Salty wrote: > > One of the keys for avoiding lack of fusion/ cold lap is to stay on > the leading edge of the puddle- if you fall back on the puddle- to > maybe increase bead size- you're probly not cutting into the base > metal and tying everything together. Short arc mig is a process > designed for sheetmetal work after all, and lacks the punch to > penetrate the cushion of molten metal when you fall back of the > leading edge. Same reason joint prep, cleaning is important for hard > wire. ( plus there is no fluxing agent ) The "mechanics" are less > tolerant - torch angle, stick out, travel speed, and the pattern or > motion must be minded. > Mind your ABCs and don't try to stretch it- if you want a bigger bead, > crank it up or jump to the next wire size. I have seen perfect looking > welds separate along the toeline to base metal area with no stress at > all applied, only shrinkage from cooling. A little unsettling for a > marine application. Not condemning the process, just a heads up. > > Sent from my iPhone > > | 27571|26545|2012-02-10 07:38:03|Matt Malone|Re: Basic welding questions|The more I read, the more I like my 6011 and 7018. I think I am looking for a DC inverter for my next upgrade, and if it can come with a plasma cutter option, that would be great. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:27:41 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions > > I have been told that on high pressure oil and gas pipelines they only > use stick welding unless it is worth the time setting up an automated > wire feed welder. This is normally done on pipeline laying barges > offshore or on very large pipelines onshore. I assume the reason for > this is that without the automation, the quality control with wire feed > is not adequate in such critical applications. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 10/02/2012 11:20 a.m., Uncle Salty wrote: > > > > One of the keys for avoiding lack of fusion/ cold lap is to stay on > > the leading edge of the puddle- if you fall back on the puddle- to > > maybe increase bead size- you're probly not cutting into the base > > metal and tying everything together. Short arc mig is a process > > designed for sheetmetal work after all, and lacks the punch to > > penetrate the cushion of molten metal when you fall back of the > > leading edge. Same reason joint prep, cleaning is important for hard > > wire. ( plus there is no fluxing agent ) The "mechanics" are less > > tolerant - torch angle, stick out, travel speed, and the pattern or > > motion must be minded. > > Mind your ABCs and don't try to stretch it- if you want a bigger bead, > > crank it up or jump to the next wire size. I have seen perfect looking > > welds separate along the toeline to base metal area with no stress at > > all applied, only shrinkage from cooling. A little unsettling for a > > marine application. Not condemning the process, just a heads up. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27572|27572|2012-02-10 12:13:00|GP|Hose|I need a new piece of hose connect the stuffing box to the stern tube. I looked at some with wire in it and seemed pretty stiff and not suited for clamps to compress it. thanks... Gary| 27573|27572|2012-02-10 12:17:47|Brian Stannard|Re: Hose|There is specific hose for connecting the stuffing box to the stern tube. Not sure who makes it, but an engine dealer should have it. On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 9:12 AM, GP wrote: > ** > > > I need a new piece of hose connect the stuffing box to the stern tube. I > looked at some with wire in it and seemed pretty stiff and not suited for > clamps to compress it. > > thanks... > Gary > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27574|26545|2012-02-10 13:56:12|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Last time, my welding booth was occupied, and I had to use another one. It had different equipment (welder, feeder, gun), same wire ER70S-6 0.035", CO2 100%. I used the same settings as before - did not work. I spent good amount of time to set it up to a point when it started to produce acceptable weld on 3/16 steel plate. The difference in voltage was 3V (but even 0.5V for MIG could make a difference)!!! I think that correct procedure for MIG adjustment is as follow (correct me if I am wrong) - set wire speed (depends on needed current) - set the voltage to produce steady cracking arc - adjust inductance for fine tuning (start point 40) I switched the equipment to stick welding and used 1/8 8018 electrode (lab run out of 6011 and 7018) and used the same settings as before for stick welding. NO PROBLEM at all!!! After I tuned up MIG settings, and with some practice I was able to make a weld which looked almost as good as with 8018 electrode. Under good looking bead I mean uniform, slightly convex bead with settings just before burning holes ;) MIG is capable of burning holes... I used 300 ipm speed (which correspond to a current about 160A). If I go to slow, and metal got too hot, wire start to poke holes in it ;) 1/8" E8018 electrode @ 120A gave me better looking bead compare to MIG (almost the same width). P.S. One student was asking to get clean metal. Instructor respond: We have limited supply... Clean metal for MIG welding, rusty/dirty for - Stick welding ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > The more I read, the more I like my 6011 and 7018. I think I am looking > for a DC inverter for my next upgrade, and if it can come with a plasma > cutter option, that would be great. > > Matt > | 27575|26545|2012-02-10 14:10:55|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Matt, I will need to choose welder too... How about to do some math for boat welding/cutting project (MIG, FCAW, Stick) and see what cost for different processes (equipment, consumables) we come up with? It will give needed characteristics (amperage) for welding equipment as well. We skip buzz box ;)) It could be good exercise for cost effectiveness of different processes for one boat (I suspect stick welding will win). At least it will give some estimate for welding cost for a boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I think I am looking > for a DC inverter for my next upgrade, and if it can come with a plasma > cutter option, that would be great. > > Matt | 27576|27572|2012-02-10 14:34:22|brentswain38|Re: Hose|Kodiak clamps are far more powerful. Well worth the extra cost for a stuffing box hose. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > I need a new piece of hose connect the stuffing box to the stern tube. I looked at some with wire in it and seemed pretty stiff and not suited for clamps to compress it. > > thanks... > Gary > | 27577|26545|2012-02-10 14:36:40|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions|MIG is definitely not worth the trouble and expense for a small, one off boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > MIG welding maybe essential for Aluminum, for thin metals or for automatic welding, but looks like it is not worth of troubles for welding on a small steel boat (but may be beneficial in some areas on a boat). > > What I already do NOT like about MIG compare to stick welding: > > 1. Not simple - Complex setup and equipment (depends on chosen wire+gas pair). Uses gas (unless it is FCAW wires). Usually requires more power. > > Read www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/en_US/Products/.../C4200.pdf - it has VERY good information about MIG processes, setup and welding. > > 2. Air/gas cooled Gun blocks vision to the puddle. Tilting gun even 10 deg reduce penetration. > 3. Need to hold Gun's trigger (unless it has ability for single trigger press start/stop) > 4. Quality air (gas) cooled MIG gun has duty cycle ~ 60% or less. > 5. Usually, affordable MIG welders (< $1000) have duty cycle 20-30% and accept wires only up to o.o35" (no 0.045") > 6. MIG wires have "current saturation" (optimal operation only in certain wire speed range and current/voltage range for given wire's size. After it wire's speed goes exponential to get more current. > 6. Hard to switch wires (with stick just take different electrode and change settings) > 7. MIG gun requires frequent cleaning and gas flow rate check. > 8. Some safety hazard for a welder who welds with inert gases heavier than air in confined spaces (gas displaces air). > > May be I forgot something, I will add it later ;) > > P.S. I probably need to do a test as David suggested (weld with 1/8 E6011 electrode, 0.035" and 0.045" wires) and see what the difference in penetration is. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > For the one off, boat I prefer stick welding. Far more forgiving and far harder to get a bad weld from. Cheaper too. I see no justification for the added expense and complexity of mig for a one off boat. It would take many boats to justify MIG. > > > | 27578|26545|2012-02-10 16:29:39|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Some information about GMAW-S (Short Arc Transfer) adjustment. Source: www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/.../GMAWFacilitatorGuide.pdf  Correct contact tip to work distance (CTWD) will be developed by proper judgment of the weld deposit: - If the CTWD is too long, there will be a noticeable increase in spatter, weld porosity and the gun assembly will push the operator's hand away from the work piece. Penetration will be poor, overlap will be noticeable, sounds of the arc will pop and sputter (rather than a steady crackle) or the arc will shut on and off with poor bead appearance as the end result. - If the CTWD is to short, the gun will block visibility.  When the rate of travel is too fast, the bead will be thin and stringy with poor penetration, but if the rate of travel is slow the weld metal will pile up and roll over with excess overlap.  When the voltage is set too high the bead will be flat with excessive amounts of spatter. The wire may burn back into the contact tip.  If the amperage setting is too low, burn back of the wire will occur stopping the wire from feeding out of the tip and bird-nesting back at the drive rolls will result.  If bird-nesting occurs, follow these steps to correct the problem: - Remove the contact tip and cut the tangled wire at the drive rolls - Straighten the first six inches of the coiled wire and insert it through the wire guide tubes to the drive rolls. - Press the gun trigger until the rolls pick up the wire and feed it through the gun assembly. - Replace the old tip with a new one making sure it's the correct size for the wire.  With constant voltage power sources, amperage is changed by adjusting the wire feed speed measured in inches per minute (ipm). As the wire feed speed increases, the corresponding amperage and penetration increases.  The push technique is commonly used on thicker materials to give good gas coverage and to flatten out the bead. The drag technique is used on thin material because it helps stabilize the arc puddle. On thicker materials, the drag technique results in more penetration.  Extra activity: Use the `click method' to determine the wire feed speed. Hold the gun trigger for 6 seconds allowing wire to feed out. Measure the wire fed over that period of time with a ruler. Multiply the inches by 10 for wire feed speed per minute.| 27579|26545|2012-02-10 16:39:37|Matt Malone|Re: Basic welding questions|It is not cost for me, it is a question of skill and how much I would have to do on scrap before I felt comfortable doing welding on the boat. For me it is stick so I can have confidence in my product. I have already been through the learning curve where my welds broke in use and now have gotten to where I am pretty sure they will pass the hammer test, before hammering them. Changing methods to something that is potentially more perfect, but more dependent on settings and skills is not somewhere I want to go. If I have something that absolutely needs a mig or tig, I will take it to a shop, ask them how much. I do not want to switch methods and be back to being not sure. I would rather get-r-done, with confidence, and because of confidence, don't spend a lot of time second-guessing myself. The second guessing is what produces the higher cost for me -- time. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 19:10:36 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions Matt, I will need to choose welder too... How about to do some math for boat welding/cutting project (MIG, FCAW, Stick) and see what cost for different processes (equipment, consumables) we come up with? It will give needed characteristics (amperage) for welding equipment as well. We skip buzz box ;)) It could be good exercise for cost effectiveness of different processes for one boat (I suspect stick welding will win). At least it will give some estimate for welding cost for a boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I think I am looking > for a DC inverter for my next upgrade, and if it can come with a plasma > cutter option, that would be great. > > Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27580|26545|2012-02-10 16:41:05|mauro gonzaga|Re: Basic welding questions|I am sure MIG (GMAW) will win as a matter of cost of consumables: wire and gas and productivity. Mauro ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 8:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions   Matt, I will need to choose welder too... How about to do some math for boat welding/cutting project (MIG, FCAW, Stick) and see what cost for different processes (equipment, consumables) we come up with? It will give needed characteristics (amperage) for welding equipment as well. We skip buzz box ;)) It could be good exercise for cost effectiveness of different processes for one boat (I suspect stick welding will win). At least it will give some estimate for welding cost for a boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I think I am looking > for a DC inverter for my next upgrade, and if it can come with a plasma > cutter option, that would be great. > > Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27581|26545|2012-02-10 17:18:49|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Some information & specs for GMAW-S cost calculation (this process is supported by all MIG equipment): Much of the welding with the gas metal-arc process using CO2 as the shielding gas is done using the short arc transfer. Low voltage and low amperages characterize short arc transfer welding. The welding voltage is typically 16-22 volts; the amperage, 30-200 amperes, and the flow of CO2 shielding gas, 25-30 cubic feet per hour. Every electrode type and diameter has an optimum range of welding conditions. In mild steel welding, typically smaller wire diameters are used (.025" - .045"). Common gas mixtures include 100% CO2 or CO2 mixtures such as 75% Argon/ 25% CO2. Higher electrode efficiencies than SMAW, 93% vs. 64% Restricted to sheet metal thickness range of .035"-1/8" and open roots of 3/16" or less. (My Note: the chart gives info for 1/4" plate) ***** We are looking for information for 1/8", 3/16", 1/4, 1/2 Plates for boat project ***** Welding Guidelines for Carbon and Low Alloy Steel Short-Circuiting Transfer — Horizontal Fillets and Flat Butt Joints Plate 10 gauge 1. Wire - 0.035", Wire Speed 250 - IPM, 175A/22DC+, Travel Speed 20 IPM, Burning rate ~3 Lb/h 2. Wire - 0.045", Wire Speed 125 - IPM, 145A/19DC+, Travel Speed 20 IPM, Burning rate ~3 Lb/h Note: - Need to find metal deposit/burning rate from a chart to convert it to LBs, - 0.045" wire requires LESS current & voltage. Plate 3/16" 1. Wire - 0.045", Wire Speed 150 - IPM, 165A/20DC+, Travel Speed 17 IPM, Burning rate ~3.75-4 Lb/h Plate 1/4" 1. Wire - 0.045", Wire Speed 200 - IPM, 200A/21DC+, Travel Speed 17 IPM, Burning rate ~5.5 Lb/h| 27582|26545|2012-02-10 17:39:34|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Calculating welding cost is useful. Not to pick up what method to use, but compare the difference, associated problems, etc. There is no one-fit-all solution. It is all about acceptable (personal) compromise. I already know that MIG welding is too complicated. I might consider FCAW-S for some areas on the boat. It may sound strange: to learn Stick welding is harder, but easier to use. Especially on the field ;) I gave some information for MIG calculation, just because it is already available. We can start from it. I will provide some estimate about length of the welds/cuts for the boat from my 3D model (ball park estimate). I will need 110/240V welder to be able to use it worldwide. Plus the brand with acceptable warranty/service/cost. I prefer to have the cost of the project before I start it ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > It is not cost for me, it is a question of skill and how much I would have to do on scrap before I felt comfortable doing welding on the boat. For me it is stick so I can have confidence in my product. I have already been through the learning curve where my welds broke in use and now have gotten to where I am pretty sure they will pass the hammer test, before hammering them. Changing methods to something that is potentially more perfect, but more dependent on settings and skills is not somewhere I want to go. If I have something that absolutely needs a mig or tig, I will take it to a shop, ask them how much. I do not want to switch methods and be back to being not sure. I would rather get-r-done, with confidence, and because of confidence, don't spend a lot of time second-guessing myself. The second guessing is what produces the higher cost for me -- time. > > Matt > | 27583|27522|2012-02-10 20:28:47|GP|Re: Painting topsides.|Brent... I want to repaint my engine bed...previously painted with wasser tar 6 yrs ago. What will stick to it? Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Put it on tacky or wet epoxy , or it will fall off in sheets. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Should I apply the topcoat on the tacky epoxy paint or should I wait > > until the next day? > > > > I am using a water-based acrylic for the topcoats. I would like maximum > > adhesion and don't want to have to sand between coats. > > > > Cheers and thanks, Paul > > > | 27584|27522|2012-02-11 06:42:51|Kim|Re: Swain 26 draft?|"Good for sailing anywhere." Great!!! :-) Pulled the port keel in today. I was a bit worried about this procedure; but it was a piece of cake! No trouble whatsoever (even though I was working alone without help). Best of all, it was an absolutely perfect fit into the hole I had previously cut for in the bottom of the hull side. :-) If the rain stops I'll pull in the starboard keel tomorrow. Related photos should be up on the website later next week. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Good for sailing anywhere. The one done with the swing keel was the one which Winston sailed thru the NW passage. Ice could force twin keels together , no matter how strongly you built them. As shallow draft was necessary, a swing keel was the only option. For anywhere else, I would recommend twin keels ; no moving parts, and only slightly more draft. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Sorry, > > Here I reformulate my questions, > > > > For wich kind of sailing would you recommend the Swain 26ft? > > > > Also, if I remember well, you once mentioned that a swing keel was installed on one of your design, was it on a 26ft? > > > > Martin. | 27585|27585|2012-02-11 10:18:24|bty568635|aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Hi, Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. I have yet to see a small boat for sale in the UK that has what I would call adequate insulation, ie about 2" of foam adhered to the hull/ deckhead etc. Still looking. I'm not overly attached to this idea, feel free to rubbish it! Rich| 27586|27585|2012-02-11 12:44:50|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Well, Polyurethane foam from pressurized cans (1 component only) tends to cure in a sort of "open blisters" - way, especially on contacting faces; that makes Your layer of foam prone to condensed (liquid) moisture from vapour which, once condensed, will have quite a problem to revaporate and exit the foam again (unless You're sailing subtropical climate in dry season), what keeps neighbouring materials staunchly moist. In addition will any amount of water within the foam reduce particularly its insulating effect which increases the risk of condensing which will add more water and reduce farther the insulating ... - You see. The real problems in hulls of any material we usually found behind elaborately wellspread layers of 1 component PU-foam; even in GRP hull-insides we found considerable osmosis-blistering, caused by the enduring water yield from 1K-PU. In my experience its a DON'T when it comes to marine use. Am 11.02.2012 um 16:18 schrieb bty568635: > Hi, > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27587|27585|2012-02-11 13:14:18|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Thanks, Giuseppe, that's pretty conclusive I think. So there was osmosis on the inside of a grp hull? That really is about as bad as it can get... The other option that came to mind was to closely fit closed cell blue styrene panels behind the lining, stood away from the hull. I thought maybe it's to possible to add a vapour barrier layer (thick polythene) between lining and foam to rigorously exclude water vapour from the boat's interior, minimising the amount of condensation running down the inside of the hull. Any screw holes through this polythene layer might need to be smeared front and back with some sort of non setting 'gum', to keep the integrity of the layer, as far as possible. I have to admit I don't know if the foam I'm thinking about takes on water or not. The theory is, I could remove parts of this polythene/ foam combination and inspect hull insides if it ever became necessary, re-sealing either with a self adhesive tape, or more gum (I once worked with a coachbuilder who referred to as 'bear shit'; I think its a thick tar basically) --- On Sat, 11/2/12, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: From: Giuseppe Bergman Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 17:44 Well, Polyurethane foam from pressurized cans (1 component only) tends to cure in a sort of "open blisters" - way, especially on contacting faces; that makes Your layer of foam prone to condensed (liquid) moisture from vapour which, once condensed, will have quite a problem to revaporate and exit the foam again (unless You're sailing subtropical climate in dry season), what keeps neighbouring materials staunchly moist. In addition will any amount of water within the foam reduce particularly its insulating effect which increases the risk of condensing which will add more water and reduce farther the insulating ... - You see. The real problems in hulls of any material we usually found behind elaborately wellspread layers of 1 component PU-foam; even in GRP hull-insides we found considerable osmosis-blistering, caused by the enduring water yield from 1K-PU. In my experience its a DON'T when it comes to marine use. Am 11.02.2012 um 16:18 schrieb bty568635: > Hi, > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27588|27522|2012-02-11 14:12:13|martin demers|Re: Swain 26 draft?|Brent, are you saying, if someone want to spend winter stuck in the ice with his steel boat , he should not have twin keels? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 03:53:27 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 26 draft? Good for sailing anywhere. The one done with the swing keel was the one which Winston sailed thru the NW passage. Ice could force twin keels together , no matter how strongly you built them. As shallow draft was necessary, a swing keel was the only option. For anywhere else, I would recommend twin keels ; no moving parts, and only slightly more draft. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Sorry, > Here I reformulate my questions, > > For wich kind of sailing would you recommend the Swain 26ft? > > Also, if I remember well, you once mentioned that a swing keel was installed on one of your design, was it on a 26ft? > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:00:56 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 26 draft? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand your question. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > what would you recommend it for sizewise? > > > is it on that size that a swing keel was made? > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 22:32:03 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 26 draft? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 ft for the twin keels. I'll have to double check for the single . > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > What is the draft of your 26 ft plan ,with full keel and with twin keels > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27589|27585|2012-02-11 14:34:27|Matt Malone|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|I have often thought of building the insulation onto the backside of interior panels and cabinets, and, have each cabinet unit held in by locks of some sort. That way, getting to the inside of the hull in a particular area is as simple as undoing a couple of locks. I also like the kernel of the idea, segment the interior, so that the project can be done in stages. I would have the foam stand off the hull and allow any moisture that does form to run down the inside of the hull and collect in the bilge. I was going to epoxy paint my foam on all sides to keep it from absorbing moisture and epoxy it to the backside of the panels. For panels I am looking at plain white shower-surround material. It is made to be water proof. It is some sort of high density fibre board impregnated with a resin covered with a thick, hard durable facing that looks like ceramic enamel. I use it currently as white-board (replacement for chalk board) material. I like a white interior to keep the light level in the boat up. Having an interior that doubles as a chalk board can have advantages too. Yes, I would put weather stripping on often-removed panels, and possibly white vinyl electrical tape across cracks where I do not intend to remove either panel very often. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 18:13:50 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? Thanks, Giuseppe, that's pretty conclusive I think. So there was osmosis on the inside of a grp hull? That really is about as bad as it can get... The other option that came to mind was to closely fit closed cell blue styrene panels behind the lining, stood away from the hull. I thought maybe it's to possible to add a vapour barrier layer (thick polythene) between lining and foam to rigorously exclude water vapour from the boat's interior, minimising the amount of condensation running down the inside of the hull. Any screw holes through this polythene layer might need to be smeared front and back with some sort of non setting 'gum', to keep the integrity of the layer, as far as possible. I have to admit I don't know if the foam I'm thinking about takes on water or not. The theory is, I could remove parts of this polythene/ foam combination and inspect hull insides if it ever became necessary, re-sealing either with a self adhesive tape, or more gum (I once worked with a coachbuilder who referred to as 'bear shit'; I think its a thick tar basically) --- On Sat, 11/2/12, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: From: Giuseppe Bergman Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 17:44 Well, Polyurethane foam from pressurized cans (1 component only) tends to cure in a sort of "open blisters" - way, especially on contacting faces; that makes Your layer of foam prone to condensed (liquid) moisture from vapour which, once condensed, will have quite a problem to revaporate and exit the foam again (unless You're sailing subtropical climate in dry season), what keeps neighbouring materials staunchly moist. In addition will any amount of water within the foam reduce particularly its insulating effect which increases the risk of condensing which will add more water and reduce farther the insulating ... - You see. The real problems in hulls of any material we usually found behind elaborately wellspread layers of 1 component PU-foam; even in GRP hull-insides we found considerable osmosis-blistering, caused by the enduring water yield from 1K-PU. In my experience its a DON'T when it comes to marine use. Am 11.02.2012 um 16:18 schrieb bty568635: > Hi, > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27590|27590|2012-02-11 14:37:10|GP|Fuel tank cleaning|My fuel tank is under the cockpit, easily accessed through a large round plate mounted at the front of the tank. I am going to drain and clean the tank. I am thinking that a stiff brush and clean fuel would my cleaning method. Anything else I might consider? thanks... Gary| 27591|27572|2012-02-11 14:40:23|GP|Re: Hose|...thanks...I will look into the clamps but was wondering more about the hose. Wire built into the hose sounds like a good idea but it makes the hose nearly incapable of being compressed by clamps. ... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Kodiak clamps are far more powerful. Well worth the extra cost for a stuffing box hose. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > I need a new piece of hose connect the stuffing box to the stern tube. I looked at some with wire in it and seemed pretty stiff and not suited for clamps to compress it. > > > > thanks... > > Gary > > > | 27592|27592|2012-02-11 14:44:26|GP|Shaft saver|Just heard about an item called a shaft saver which is a round plastic disk between shaft coupler and tranny designed to work like a shear pin on an outboard. If your prop hits something the shaft saver will break not your drive system. Anyone know the company name and perhaps have some info on this? ... thanks.. Gary| 27593|27585|2012-02-11 15:19:08|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|I like the idea of protecting the foam with epoxy (maybe use latex as it's cheaper?), and not fussing too much about vapour sealing the hull. Like you, I was also thinking that, given enough limber holes, any condensation would drain into the bilges; I remember Brent (I think) suggested that an area of hullside could be left bare to act as a 'condenser', to keep the humidity down in case of those sudden temperature drops followed by 'indoor rain'... I think stood-off panels would do the same. It's also got to be a good selling point, if you can show a prospective buyer the inside of the hull easily- no hidden surprises. I even thought maybe the foam could be velcroed on to the hull sides; removable, and leaves an air gap. No need to glue it to the cabin lining then either! Or it could be held in place with just a push fit between frames or interior battens, if you can cut it accurately enough, and then maybe you could place self adhesive foam pads on the (curved) hull sides where the (flat) foam panels will inevitably touch. Anything to save time, money, and effort. I think the foam in 2" panels wouldn't easily be persuaded to bend to fit the hull smoothly, except maybe in a really roasting summer. --- On Sat, 11/2/12, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 19:34 I have often thought of building the insulation onto the backside of interior panels and cabinets, and, have each cabinet unit held in by locks of some sort.  That way, getting to the inside of the hull in a particular area is as simple as undoing a couple of locks.  I also like the kernel of the idea, segment the interior, so that the project can be done in stages.   I would have the foam stand off the hull and allow any moisture that does form to run down the inside of the hull and collect in the bilge.   I was going to epoxy paint my foam on all sides to keep it from absorbing moisture and epoxy it to the backside of the panels.    For panels I am looking at plain white shower-surround material.  It is made to be water proof.  It is some sort of high density fibre board impregnated with a resin covered with a thick, hard durable facing that looks like ceramic enamel.  I use it currently as white-board (replacement for chalk board) material.   I like a white interior to keep the light level in the boat up.   Having an interior that doubles as a chalk board can have advantages too.   Yes, I would put weather stripping on often-removed panels, and possibly white vinyl electrical tape across cracks where I do not intend to remove either panel very often.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 18:13:50 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?                         Thanks, Giuseppe, that's pretty conclusive I think. So there was osmosis on the inside of a grp hull? That really is about as bad as it can get... The other option that came to mind was to closely fit closed cell blue styrene panels behind the lining, stood away from the hull. I thought maybe it's to possible to add a vapour barrier layer (thick polythene) between lining and foam to rigorously exclude water vapour from the boat's interior, minimising the amount of condensation running down the inside of the hull. Any screw holes through this polythene layer might need to be smeared front and back with some sort of non setting 'gum', to keep the integrity of the layer, as far as possible. I have to admit I don't know if the foam I'm thinking about takes on water or not. The theory is, I could remove parts of this polythene/ foam combination and inspect hull insides if it ever became necessary, re-sealing either with a self adhesive tape, or more gum (I once worked with a coachbuilder who referred to as 'bear shit'; I think its a thick tar basically) --- On Sat, 11/2/12, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: From: Giuseppe Bergman Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 17:44 Well, Polyurethane foam from pressurized cans (1 component only) tends to cure in a sort of "open blisters" - way, especially on contacting faces; that makes Your layer of foam prone to condensed (liquid) moisture from vapour which, once condensed, will have quite a problem to revaporate and exit the foam again (unless You're sailing subtropical climate in dry season), what keeps neighbouring materials staunchly moist. In addition will any amount of water within the foam reduce particularly its insulating effect which increases the risk of condensing which will add more water and reduce farther the insulating ... - You see. The real problems in hulls of any material we usually found behind elaborately wellspread layers of 1 component PU-foam; even in GRP hull-insides we found considerable osmosis-blistering, caused by the enduring water yield from 1K-PU. In my experience its a DON'T when it comes to marine use. Am 11.02.2012 um 16:18 schrieb bty568635: > Hi, > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27594|27585|2012-02-11 15:22:34|Paul Wilson|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|If you paint the steel well and then use spray foam on to the paint, you will have zero air gap and zero condensation from the steel and it will never corrode. There is no need to inspect it. I recently moved a thru hull and when I checked the paint and foam after digging it out for the new fitting it looked perfect. It was painted and foamed in the late 80s. I have seen many steel boats in NZ with removable foam insulation and have seen quite a few of them with rusty interiors. If I was building again, I would definitely use the spray foam everywhere except the bilge. Cheers, Paul On 12/02/2012 8:34 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > I have often thought of building the insulation onto the backside of interior panels and cabinets, and, have each cabinet unit held in by locks of some sort. That way, getting to the inside of the hull in a particular area is as simple as undoing a couple of locks. I also like the kernel of the idea, segment the interior, so that the project can be done in stages. I would have the foam stand off the hull and allow any moisture that does form to run down the inside of the hull and collect in the bilge. I was going to epoxy paint my foam on all sides to keep it from absorbing moisture and epoxy it to the backside of the panels. > > For panels I am looking at plain white shower-surround material. It is made to be water proof. It is some sort of high density fibre board impregnated with a resin covered with a thick, hard durable facing that looks like ceramic enamel. I use it currently as white-board (replacement for chalk board) material. I like a white interior to keep the light level in the boat up. Having an interior that doubles as a chalk board can have advantages too. Yes, I would put weather stripping on often-removed panels, and possibly white vinyl electrical tape across cracks where I do not intend to remove either panel very often. > > Matt > | 27595|27585|2012-02-11 15:30:13|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Thanks, Paul I guess you mean 2 part foam, not the canned stuff? When you say rusty interiors, do you mean that the insides of the hulls are rusty? Are they rustier than an uninsulated hull would be, in your opinion? Maybe the removable foam would work okay on a grp boat... --- On Sat, 11/2/12, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 20:20 If you paint the steel well and then use spray foam on to the paint, you will have zero air gap and zero condensation from the steel and it will never corrode.  There is no need to inspect it.  I recently moved a thru hull and when I checked the paint and foam after digging it out for the new fitting it looked perfect.  It was painted and foamed in the late 80s.   I have seen many steel boats in NZ with removable foam insulation and have seen quite a few of them with rusty interiors.  If I was building again, I would definitely use the spray foam everywhere except the bilge. Cheers, Paul On 12/02/2012 8:34 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > I have often thought of building the insulation onto the backside of interior panels and cabinets, and, have each cabinet unit held in by locks of some sort.  That way, getting to the inside of the hull in a particular area is as simple as undoing a couple of locks.  I also like the kernel of the idea, segment the interior, so that the project can be done in stages.   I would have the foam stand off the hull and allow any moisture that does form to run down the inside of the hull and collect in the bilge.   I was going to epoxy paint my foam on all sides to keep it from absorbing moisture and epoxy it to the backside of the panels. > > For panels I am looking at plain white shower-surround material.  It is made to be water proof.  It is some sort of high density fibre board impregnated with a resin covered with a thick, hard durable facing that looks like ceramic enamel.  I use it currently as white-board (replacement for chalk board) material.   I like a white interior to keep the light level in the boat up.   Having an interior that doubles as a chalk board can have advantages too.   Yes, I would put weather stripping on often-removed panels, and possibly white vinyl electrical tape across cracks where I do not intend to remove either panel very often. > > Matt > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27596|27592|2012-02-11 15:36:39|Paul Wilson|Re: Shaft saver|I am sure there are others but the one I have is made by Isoflex. http://www.isoflex.com.au/index.php?pid=7&menid=7 I wouldn't say a shaft saver is necessary. If you are going to put one in, make sure you size everything so you can bypass it and go direct in an emergency. Cheers, Paul On 12/02/2012 8:44 a.m., GP wrote: > > Just heard about an item called a shaft saver which is a round plastic > disk between shaft coupler and tranny designed to work like a shear > pin on an outboard. If your prop hits something the shaft saver will > break not your drive system. Anyone know the company name and perhaps > have some info on this? ... thanks.. Gary > > | 27597|27592|2012-02-11 15:40:11|Paul Wilson|Re: Shaft saver|More shaft stuff here: http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com On 12/02/2012 9:34 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > I am sure there are others but the one I have is made by Isoflex. > > http://www.isoflex.com.au/index.php?pid=7&menid=7 > > I wouldn't say a shaft saver is necessary. If you are going to put one > in, make sure you size everything so you can bypass it and go direct in > an emergency. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 12/02/2012 8:44 a.m., GP wrote: >> Just heard about an item called a shaft saver which is a round plastic >> disk between shaft coupler and tranny designed to work like a shear >> pin on an outboard. If your prop hits something the shaft saver will >> break not your drive system. Anyone know the company name and perhaps >> have some info on this? ... thanks.. Gary >> >> > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 27598|27585|2012-02-11 15:52:38|Paul Wilson|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|The foam was heated, 2 part and sprayed by a commercial applicator. It is denser than the stuff that comes out of a spray can. Yes, it was rust inside. Maybe the steel boats I have seen in NZ were not painted properly inside but I have been looking and many of them are a real rusty mess with plates needing replacement. I think with a marginal paint job and spray foam they might have been OK but I am not recommending a cheap paint job. One guy tried to tell me you didn't need to paint steel if you used the foam but he was full of it. Any steel boat done this way turns into a disaster. Paul On 12/02/2012 9:30 a.m., richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Thanks, Paul > I guess you mean 2 part foam, not the canned stuff? When you say rusty > interiors, do you mean that the insides of the hulls are rusty? Are > they rustier than an uninsulated hull would be, in your opinion? > > Maybe the removable foam would work okay on a grp boat... > > --- On Sat, 11/2/12, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > From: Paul Wilson > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 20:20 > > If you paint the steel well and then use spray foam on to the paint, you > will have zero air gap and zero condensation from the steel and it will > never corrode. There is no need to inspect it. I recently moved a thru > hull and when I checked the paint and foam after digging it out for the > new fitting it looked perfect. It was painted and foamed in the late > 80s. I have seen many steel boats in NZ with removable foam insulation > and have seen quite a few of them with rusty interiors. If I was > building again, I would definitely use the spray foam everywhere except > the bilge. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 12/02/2012 8:34 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I have often thought of building the insulation onto the backside of > interior panels and cabinets, and, have each cabinet unit held in by > locks of some sort. That way, getting to the inside of the hull in a > particular area is as simple as undoing a couple of locks. I also like > the kernel of the idea, segment the interior, so that the project can > be done in stages. I would have the foam stand off the hull and allow > any moisture that does form to run down the inside of the hull and > collect in the bilge. I was going to epoxy paint my foam on all sides > to keep it from absorbing moisture and epoxy it to the backside of the > panels. > > > > For panels I am looking at plain white shower-surround material. It > is made to be water proof. It is some sort of high density fibre board > impregnated with a resin covered with a thick, hard durable facing > that looks like ceramic enamel. I use it currently as white-board > (replacement for chalk board) material. I like a white interior to > keep the light level in the boat up. Having an interior that doubles > as a chalk board can have advantages too. Yes, I would put weather > stripping on often-removed panels, and possibly white vinyl electrical > tape across cracks where I do not intend to remove either panel very > often. > > > > Matt > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 27599|27592|2012-02-11 15:54:05|Ben Okopnik|Re: Shaft saver|On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 09:34:12AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > I am sure there are others but the one I have is made by Isoflex. > > http://www.isoflex.com.au/index.php?pid=7&menid=7 > > I wouldn't say a shaft saver is necessary. If you are going to put one > in, make sure you size everything so you can bypass it and go direct in > an emergency. Just as a usage note, these designs are closer to the Yamaha outboard prop "shock absorber" than a shear pin - and you'd have to search long and hard before you found a more useless idea than that. Typical o/b with shear pin: hit something, shrug, replace pin, and go on. Yamaha o/b: hit something... um, stare at the now useless prop... row back to shore, make your way to Yamaha dealer, have a heart attack about the price of the new prop (that's right, it's NOT FIXABLE!), wait three weeks for delivery - without a working o/b all that time, by the way - and know, every second that you're using it, that you'll go through this again at some point. (If you're like me, you row to the boat, drill and tap 3 1/4" holes through the prop body to the hub, and jam it in place with 3 bolts until the new prop gets there.) Upshot: Paul is dead right on this one. Unless the "shaft saver" comes with an easy bypass method, "bypass" the whole idea. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27600|27522|2012-02-11 16:50:17|haidan|Re: Painting topsides.|Gary, so far i've just been using coal tar epoxy as touch up paint over top of the wasser coal tar, so far it seems to stick pretty well. though it's only been a couple years. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Brent... I want to repaint my engine bed...previously painted with wasser tar 6 yrs ago. What will stick to it? > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Put it on tacky or wet epoxy , or it will fall off in sheets. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Should I apply the topcoat on the tacky epoxy paint or should I wait > > > until the next day? > > > > > > I am using a water-based acrylic for the topcoats. I would like maximum > > > adhesion and don't want to have to sand between coats. > > > > > > Cheers and thanks, Paul > > > > > > | 27601|27585|2012-02-11 18:05:52|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Yep, that's what I thought you meant. I wonder whether a properly painted (inside) steel boat with removable insulation, a slight air gap, and decent limber holes leading to the bilges, would rust more than the same boat without the insulation panels? I'm thinking temperate to cold conditions. I have no steel boat experience to go on, I'm trying to think this through 'blind', so to speak. I'm trying to weigh up the options to retro fit insulation and heating, to turn a cruiser (26 to 30 ft) into an acceptable place to live in Northern Europe. Any suggestions gratefully received! From what you said, I think that the interior paint would be a crucial factor;- get a boat with a bad paint job, and it will need major spending and ripping apart, insulation or not. I'd love to have professionally foamed in insulation, just not sure I could afford it. --- On Sat, 11/2/12, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 20:50 The foam was heated, 2 part and sprayed by a commercial applicator. It is denser than the stuff that comes out of a spray can. Yes, it was rust inside. Maybe the steel boats I have seen in NZ were not painted properly inside but I have been looking and many of them are a real rusty mess with plates needing replacement. I think with a marginal paint job and spray foam they might have been OK but I am not recommending a cheap paint job. One guy tried to tell me you didn't need to paint steel if you used the foam but he was full of it. Any steel boat done this way turns into a disaster. Paul On 12/02/2012 9:30 a.m., richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Thanks, Paul > I guess you mean 2 part foam, not the canned stuff? When you say rusty > interiors, do you mean that the insides of the hulls are rusty? Are > they rustier than an uninsulated hull would be, in your opinion? > > Maybe the removable foam would work okay on a grp boat... > > --- On Sat, 11/2/12, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > From: Paul Wilson > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 20:20 > > If you paint the steel well and then use spray foam on to the paint, you > will have zero air gap and zero condensation from the steel and it will > never corrode. There is no need to inspect it. I recently moved a thru > hull and when I checked the paint and foam after digging it out for the > new fitting it looked perfect. It was painted and foamed in the late > 80s. I have seen many steel boats in NZ with removable foam insulation > and have seen quite a few of them with rusty interiors. If I was > building again, I would definitely use the spray foam everywhere except > the bilge. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 12/02/2012 8:34 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I have often thought of building the insulation onto the backside of > interior panels and cabinets, and, have each cabinet unit held in by > locks of some sort. That way, getting to the inside of the hull in a > particular area is as simple as undoing a couple of locks. I also like > the kernel of the idea, segment the interior, so that the project can > be done in stages. I would have the foam stand off the hull and allow > any moisture that does form to run down the inside of the hull and > collect in the bilge. I was going to epoxy paint my foam on all sides > to keep it from absorbing moisture and epoxy it to the backside of the > panels. > > > > For panels I am looking at plain white shower-surround material. It > is made to be water proof. It is some sort of high density fibre board > impregnated with a resin covered with a thick, hard durable facing > that looks like ceramic enamel. I use it currently as white-board > (replacement for chalk board) material. I like a white interior to > keep the light level in the boat up. Having an interior that doubles > as a chalk board can have advantages too. Yes, I would put weather > stripping on often-removed panels, and possibly white vinyl electrical > tape across cracks where I do not intend to remove either panel very > often. > > > > Matt > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27602|27572|2012-02-11 18:09:14|Brian Stannard|Re: Hose|Buck-Algonquin is the company that makes hose specifically for stuffing boxes. Quite different from any other hose. http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/hose-for-packing-box-1-3-4i.d.-f-1shaft-104000-/4,17904.html On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 11:40 AM, GP wrote: > ** > > > ...thanks...I will look into the clamps but was wondering more about the > hose. Wire built into the hose sounds like a good idea but it makes the > hose nearly incapable of being compressed by clamps. ... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Kodiak clamps are far more powerful. Well worth the extra cost for a > stuffing box hose. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > > > I need a new piece of hose connect the stuffing box to the stern tube. > I looked at some with wire in it and seemed pretty stiff and not suited for > clamps to compress it. > > > > > > thanks... > > > Gary > > > > > > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27603|26545|2012-02-11 18:22:45|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|After reading more about GMAW-S, EVEN POSSIBILITY to use this process on a steel boat WAS ELIMINATED. Complex, unreliable, hard for quality control. Primary process - SMAW (Stick welding)!!!. Possible secondary process - for inside the hull detailing, finish welds - could be FCAW-SS (self shielding flux-core wires). Main problem - needs wire bigger than 0.045" for thicker metals (1/8", 3/16") for one pass welding - means special equipment. Below are some numbers for welding/cutting Simplified ESTIMATE. NOT ACCURATE. It is taken from 3D model about 38-39 ft LOA. Cutting/Welding length for Origami project estimate. (cutting and welding length is assumed to be the same, to estimate double-side welding in some areas and extra welding for stringers, reinforcement, etc). Length is in meters (m)! (Multiply on ~3.3 for feet OR ~39.4 for inches) : Hull, transom =~ 120 m Deck, Cabin, PilotHouse, FootWell = ~ 120 m Tween Keels (both) =~ 80 m Tank top = ~ 20 m Skeg, Rudder =~ 40m --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Some information & specs for GMAW-S cost calculation (this process is supported by all MIG equipment): > > Much of the welding with the gas metal-arc process using CO2 as the shielding gas is done using the short arc transfer. > > Low voltage and low amperages characterize short arc transfer welding. The welding voltage is typically 16-22 volts; the amperage, 30-200 amperes, and the flow of CO2 shielding gas, 25-30 cubic feet per hour. Every electrode type and diameter has an optimum range of welding conditions. In mild steel welding, typically smaller wire diameters are used (.025" - .045"). Common gas mixtures include 100% CO2 or CO2 mixtures such as 75% Argon/ 25% CO2. > > Higher electrode efficiencies than SMAW, 93% vs. 64% > > Restricted to sheet metal thickness range of .035"-1/8" and open roots of 3/16" or less. (My Note: the chart gives info for 1/4" plate) > > ***** > We are looking for information for 1/8", 3/16", 1/4, 1/2 Plates for boat project > ***** > > Welding Guidelines for Carbon and Low Alloy Steel > Short-Circuiting Transfer — Horizontal Fillets and Flat Butt Joints > > Plate 10 gauge > 1. Wire - 0.035", Wire Speed 250 - IPM, 175A/22DC+, Travel Speed 20 IPM, Burning rate ~3 Lb/h > 2. Wire - 0.045", Wire Speed 125 - IPM, 145A/19DC+, Travel Speed 20 IPM, Burning rate ~3 Lb/h > > Note: > - Need to find metal deposit/burning rate from a chart to convert it to LBs, > - 0.045" wire requires LESS current & voltage. > > Plate 3/16" > 1. Wire - 0.045", Wire Speed 150 - IPM, 165A/20DC+, Travel Speed 17 IPM, Burning rate ~3.75-4 Lb/h > > Plate 1/4" > > 1. Wire - 0.045", Wire Speed 200 - IPM, 200A/21DC+, Travel Speed 17 IPM, Burning rate ~5.5 Lb/h > | 27604|27590|2012-02-11 18:38:59|brentswain38|Re: Fuel tank cleaning|Excessive weight in the ends leads to hobby horsing. That's why I prefer to put the fuel tank under the pilot house floor. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > My fuel tank is under the cockpit, easily accessed through a large round plate mounted at the front of the tank. I am going to drain and clean the tank. I am thinking that a stiff brush and clean fuel would my cleaning method. Anything else I might consider? > > thanks... Gary > | 27605|27592|2012-02-11 18:43:14|brentswain38|Re: Shaft saver|I machined something similar out of 3/4 polypropelene sheet, to compensate for possible shaft misalignment. Been down there for decades, no problems. Simple to make. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Just heard about an item called a shaft saver which is a round plastic disk between shaft coupler and tranny designed to work like a shear pin on an outboard. If your prop hits something the shaft saver will break not your drive system. Anyone know the company name and perhaps have some info on this? ... thanks.. Gary > | 27606|27522|2012-02-11 18:44:50|brentswain38|Re: Painting topsides.|Did the Wasser fall off? You would have to get it super clean to get anything to stick to it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Brent... I want to repaint my engine bed...previously painted with wasser tar 6 yrs ago. What will stick to it? > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Put it on tacky or wet epoxy , or it will fall off in sheets. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Should I apply the topcoat on the tacky epoxy paint or should I wait > > > until the next day? > > > > > > I am using a water-based acrylic for the topcoats. I would like maximum > > > adhesion and don't want to have to sand between coats. > > > > > > Cheers and thanks, Paul > > > > > > | 27607|27522|2012-02-11 18:47:02|brentswain38|Re: Swain 26 draft?|I like to leave one keel off as long as possible, to pass tools, materials , ballast etc thru. Far easier than packing it up over the rail. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > "Good for sailing anywhere." Great!!! :-) > > Pulled the port keel in today. I was a bit worried about this procedure; but it was a piece of cake! No trouble whatsoever (even though I was working alone without help). Best of all, it was an absolutely perfect fit into the hole I had previously cut for in the bottom of the hull side. :-) If the rain stops I'll pull in the starboard keel tomorrow. Related photos should be up on the website later next week. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Good for sailing anywhere. The one done with the swing keel was the one which Winston sailed thru the NW passage. Ice could force twin keels together , no matter how strongly you built them. As shallow draft was necessary, a swing keel was the only option. For anywhere else, I would recommend twin keels ; no moving parts, and only slightly more draft. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > Sorry, > > > Here I reformulate my questions, > > > > > > For wich kind of sailing would you recommend the Swain 26ft? > > > > > > Also, if I remember well, you once mentioned that a swing keel was installed on one of your design, was it on a 26ft? > > > > > > Martin. > | 27608|27522|2012-02-11 18:49:39|brentswain38|Re: Swain 26 draft?|Yes. You may be OK in a small sheltered bay, where there is no chance of ice moving, but wind on ice over open water will crush everything it comes across. I have seen wind blown lake ice scour huge trees out of the ground. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent, > > are you saying, if someone want to spend winter stuck in the ice with his steel boat , he should not have twin keels? > > Martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 03:53:27 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 26 draft? > > > > > > > Good for sailing anywhere. The one done with the swing keel was the one which Winston sailed thru the NW passage. Ice could force twin keels together , no matter how strongly you built them. As shallow draft was necessary, a swing keel was the only option. For anywhere else, I would recommend twin keels ; no moving parts, and only slightly more draft. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Sorry, > > Here I reformulate my questions, > > > > For wich kind of sailing would you recommend the Swain 26ft? > > > > Also, if I remember well, you once mentioned that a swing keel was installed on one of your design, was it on a 26ft? > > > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@ > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:00:56 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 26 draft? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand your question. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > > > what would you recommend it for sizewise? > > > > > is it on that size that a swing keel was made? > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > > > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 22:32:03 +0000 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 26 draft? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 ft for the twin keels. I'll have to double check for the single . > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the draft of your 26 ft plan ,with full keel and with twin keels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27609|27585|2012-02-11 18:55:04|brentswain38|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|I've thought of the same thing on a friend's fibreglass boat. It may work well there, as you don't have to worry about water in the foam as much. Spray can foam is far more porous than spray foam. A friend did his BS 36 entirely with can foam. He is happy with it, but friends who used it on an aluminium boat said it got soggy dripping wet, as it absorbed the much greater amount of condensation you get with the far more heat conductive aluminium. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bty568635" wrote: > > Hi, > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > I have yet to see a small boat for sale in the UK that has what I would call adequate insulation, ie about 2" of foam adhered to the hull/ deckhead etc. Still looking. > > I'm not overly attached to this idea, feel free to rubbish it! > > Rich > | 27610|27585|2012-02-11 18:57:13|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Would you recommend painting styrene foam with anything to keep water out entirely? Latex was a guess. --- On Sat, 11/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 23:55 I've thought of the same thing on a friend's fibreglass boat. It may work well there, as you don't have to worry about water in the foam as much. Spray can  foam is far more porous than spray foam. A friend did his BS 36 entirely with can foam. He is happy with it, but friends who used it on an aluminium boat said it got soggy dripping wet, as it absorbed the much greater amount of condensation you get with the far more heat conductive aluminium.  --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bty568635" wrote: > > Hi, > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > I have yet to see a small boat for sale in the UK that has what I would call adequate insulation, ie about 2" of foam adhered to the hull/ deckhead etc. Still looking. > > I'm not overly attached to this idea, feel free to rubbish it! > > Rich > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27611|27585|2012-02-11 19:04:19|brentswain38|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Definitely the onlyway to go on a new boat. I've had similar results with 27 year old foam I've cut out.Friends have used those foaming kits with the two ingredients in pressurized propane like bottles, with success. With an existing fibreglass boat with a solid liner in , spray foam is not so easy. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > If you paint the steel well and then use spray foam on to the paint, you > will have zero air gap and zero condensation from the steel and it will > never corrode. There is no need to inspect it. I recently moved a thru > hull and when I checked the paint and foam after digging it out for the > new fitting it looked perfect. It was painted and foamed in the late > 80s. I have seen many steel boats in NZ with removable foam insulation > and have seen quite a few of them with rusty interiors. If I was > building again, I would definitely use the spray foam everywhere except > the bilge. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 12/02/2012 8:34 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I have often thought of building the insulation onto the backside of interior panels and cabinets, and, have each cabinet unit held in by locks of some sort. That way, getting to the inside of the hull in a particular area is as simple as undoing a couple of locks. I also like the kernel of the idea, segment the interior, so that the project can be done in stages. I would have the foam stand off the hull and allow any moisture that does form to run down the inside of the hull and collect in the bilge. I was going to epoxy paint my foam on all sides to keep it from absorbing moisture and epoxy it to the backside of the panels. > > > > For panels I am looking at plain white shower-surround material. It is made to be water proof. It is some sort of high density fibre board impregnated with a resin covered with a thick, hard durable facing that looks like ceramic enamel. I use it currently as white-board (replacement for chalk board) material. I like a white interior to keep the light level in the boat up. Having an interior that doubles as a chalk board can have advantages too. Yes, I would put weather stripping on often-removed panels, and possibly white vinyl electrical tape across cracks where I do not intend to remove either panel very often. > > > > Matt > > > | 27612|27585|2012-02-11 19:10:49|brentswain38|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|If you are buying a steel boat , drag your fingernails over the foam and listen for hollow spots. That is where you should cut out a bit of foam and have a look.If it's not painted under the foam, walk away. Lack of adequate epoxy under the foam is the main cause of steel boats rusting out. Primer is definitely not enough. All the boats I've seen built by Foulkes, and Fehr have had this problem, unless the owner bought the bare hull and finished it himself. Amazons only had light primer inside, and no welding done inside. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The foam was heated, 2 part and sprayed by a commercial applicator. It > is denser than the stuff that comes out of a spray can. > > Yes, it was rust inside. Maybe the steel boats I have seen in NZ were > not painted properly inside but I have been looking and many of them are > a real rusty mess with plates needing replacement. I think with a > marginal paint job and spray foam they might have been OK but I am not > recommending a cheap paint job. One guy tried to tell me you didn't need > to paint steel if you used the foam but he was full of it. Any steel > boat done this way turns into a disaster. > > Paul > > On 12/02/2012 9:30 a.m., richard.barwell@... wrote: > > > > Thanks, Paul > > I guess you mean 2 part foam, not the canned stuff? When you say rusty > > interiors, do you mean that the insides of the hulls are rusty? Are > > they rustier than an uninsulated hull would be, in your opinion? > > > > Maybe the removable foam would work okay on a grp boat... > > > > --- On Sat, 11/2/12, Paul Wilson > > wrote: > > > > From: Paul Wilson > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 20:20 > > > > If you paint the steel well and then use spray foam on to the paint, you > > will have zero air gap and zero condensation from the steel and it will > > never corrode. There is no need to inspect it. I recently moved a thru > > hull and when I checked the paint and foam after digging it out for the > > new fitting it looked perfect. It was painted and foamed in the late > > 80s. I have seen many steel boats in NZ with removable foam insulation > > and have seen quite a few of them with rusty interiors. If I was > > building again, I would definitely use the spray foam everywhere except > > the bilge. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > On 12/02/2012 8:34 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > I have often thought of building the insulation onto the backside of > > interior panels and cabinets, and, have each cabinet unit held in by > > locks of some sort. That way, getting to the inside of the hull in a > > particular area is as simple as undoing a couple of locks. I also like > > the kernel of the idea, segment the interior, so that the project can > > be done in stages. I would have the foam stand off the hull and allow > > any moisture that does form to run down the inside of the hull and > > collect in the bilge. I was going to epoxy paint my foam on all sides > > to keep it from absorbing moisture and epoxy it to the backside of the > > panels. > > > > > > For panels I am looking at plain white shower-surround material. It > > is made to be water proof. It is some sort of high density fibre board > > impregnated with a resin covered with a thick, hard durable facing > > that looks like ceramic enamel. I use it currently as white-board > > (replacement for chalk board) material. I like a white interior to > > keep the light level in the boat up. Having an interior that doubles > > as a chalk board can have advantages too. Yes, I would put weather > > stripping on often-removed panels, and possibly white vinyl electrical > > tape across cracks where I do not intend to remove either panel very > > often. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 27613|27585|2012-02-11 19:14:33|brentswain38|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Almost all paints will dissolve Styrofoam , except possibly latex. Try it on a piece first. Styrofoam is probably far more water repellent than latex anyway , far more so than Urethane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Would you recommend painting styrene foam with anything to keep water out entirely? Latex was a guess. > > --- On Sat, 11/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 23:55 > > I've thought of the same thing on a friend's fibreglass boat. It may work well there, as you don't have to worry about water in the foam as much. Spray can� foam is far more porous than spray foam. A friend did his BS 36 entirely with can foam. He is happy with it, but friends who used it on an aluminium boat said it got soggy dripping wet, as it absorbed the much greater amount of condensation you get with the far more heat conductive aluminium.� > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bty568635" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > > > I have yet to see a small boat for sale in the UK that has what I would call adequate insulation, ie about 2" of foam adhered to the hull/ deckhead etc. Still looking. > > > > I'm not overly attached to this idea, feel free to rubbish it! > > > > Rich > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27614|27585|2012-02-11 19:30:14|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|I'm tempted to break off a couple of chunks of styrofoam, weigh them, stick one in a bucket of fresh water for a month, steam the other one for half an hour in a pressure cooker, and weigh them both again. If neither have increased their weight by more than, say, 1%, I'd consider styrofoam able to look after itself okay without paint, etc. All the plastic boats I can afford are old ones, with bare grp/ knackered headlining material/ wooden panelling inside. Luckily they are the knd of boats I like. --- On Sun, 12/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 12 February, 2012, 0:14 Almost all paints will dissolve Styrofoam , except possibly latex. Try it on a piece first. Styrofoam is probably far more water repellent than  latex anyway , far more so than Urethane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Would you recommend painting styrene foam with anything to keep water out entirely? Latex was a guess. > > --- On Sat, 11/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 23:55 > > I've thought of the same thing on a friend's fibreglass boat. It may work well there, as you don't have to worry about water in the foam as much. Spray can� foam is far more porous than spray foam. A friend did his BS 36 entirely with can foam. He is happy with it, but friends who used it on an aluminium boat said it got soggy dripping wet, as it absorbed the much greater amount of condensation you get with the far more heat conductive aluminium.� > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bty568635" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > > > I have yet to see a small boat for sale in the UK that has what I would call adequate insulation, ie about 2" of foam adhered to the hull/ deckhead etc. Still looking. > > > > I'm not overly attached to this idea, feel free to rubbish it! > > > > Rich > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27615|27585|2012-02-11 21:52:01|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Brent et all I used. Zinser 1-2-3 throughout my boat to cover (seal) the spray foam insulation. It seems to have had no effect on the foam and has provided a protective and waterproof layer of protection over the foam. Where I have needed to remove foam, I just cut it away, make the changes, spray the "canned" foam in the site, trim it flush and repaint with Zinser 1 2 3. Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 00:14:31 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? Almost all paints will dissolve Styrofoam , except possibly latex. Try it on a piece first. Styrofoam is probably far more water repellent than latex anyway , far more so than Urethane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Would you recommend painting styrene foam with anything to keep water out entirely? Latex was a guess. > > --- On Sat, 11/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 23:55 > > I've thought of the same thing on a friend's fibreglass boat. It may work well there, as you don't have to worry about water in the foam as much. Spray can��� foam is far more porous than spray foam. A friend did his BS 36 entirely with can foam. He is happy with it, but friends who used it on an aluminium boat said it got soggy dripping wet, as it absorbed the much greater amount of condensation you get with the far more heat conductive aluminium.��� > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bty568635" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > > > I have yet to see a small boat for sale in the UK that has what I would call adequate insulation, ie about 2" of foam adhered to the hull/ deckhead etc. Still looking. > > > > I'm not overly attached to this idea, feel free to rubbish it! > > > > Rich > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���������origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27616|27592|2012-02-11 22:13:45|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Shaft saver|Virginia...that U? What you doin' on the Origami site? Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: Ben Okopnik Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:53:54 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Shaft saver On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 09:34:12AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > I am sure there are others but the one I have is made by Isoflex. > > http://www.isoflex.com.au/index.php?pid=7&menid=7 > > I wouldn't say a shaft saver is necessary. If you are going to put one > in, make sure you size everything so you can bypass it and go direct in > an emergency. Just as a usage note, these designs are closer to the Yamaha outboard prop "shock absorber" than a shear pin - and you'd have to search long and hard before you found a more useless idea than that. Typical o/b with shear pin: hit something, shrug, replace pin, and go on. Yamaha o/b: hit something... um, stare at the now useless prop... row back to shore, make your way to Yamaha dealer, have a heart attack about the price of the new prop (that's right, it's NOT FIXABLE!), wait three weeks for delivery - without a working o/b all that time, by the way - and know, every second that you're using it, that you'll go through this again at some point. (If you're like me, you row to the boat, drill and tap 3 1/4" holes through the prop body to the hub, and jam it in place with 3 bolts until the new prop gets there.) Upshot: Paul is dead right on this one. Unless the "shaft saver" comes with an easy bypass method, "bypass" the whole idea. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27617|27585|2012-02-11 23:06:12|Matt Malone|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|White styrofoam used in sheet-metal-clad insulation panels, when put under 8" of water for 2 days triples its weight. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 00:30:11 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? I'm tempted to break off a couple of chunks of styrofoam, weigh them, stick one in a bucket of fresh water for a month, steam the other one for half an hour in a pressure cooker, and weigh them both again. If neither have increased their weight by more than, say, 1%, I'd consider styrofoam able to look after itself okay without paint, etc. All the plastic boats I can afford are old ones, with bare grp/ knackered headlining material/ wooden panelling inside. Luckily they are the knd of boats I like. --- On Sun, 12/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 12 February, 2012, 0:14 Almost all paints will dissolve Styrofoam , except possibly latex. Try it on a piece first. Styrofoam is probably far more water repellent than latex anyway , far more so than Urethane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Would you recommend painting styrene foam with anything to keep water out entirely? Latex was a guess. > > --- On Sat, 11/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 23:55 > > I've thought of the same thing on a friend's fibreglass boat. It may work well there, as you don't have to worry about water in the foam as much. Spray can��� foam is far more porous than spray foam. A friend did his BS 36 entirely with can foam. He is happy with it, but friends who used it on an aluminium boat said it got soggy dripping wet, as it absorbed the much greater amount of condensation you get with the far more heat conductive aluminium.��� > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bty568635" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > > > I have yet to see a small boat for sale in the UK that has what I would call adequate insulation, ie about 2" of foam adhered to the hull/ deckhead etc. Still looking. > > > > I'm not overly attached to this idea, feel free to rubbish it! > > > > Rich > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���������origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27618|27585|2012-02-12 08:00:05|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Gord, Was your boat originally sprayed all over inside with canned foam? How long ago? Have you ever uncovered any areas that did'nt seem to have adhered properly? Richard --- On Sun, 12/2/12, gschnell@... wrote: From: gschnell@... Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: "Virginia Will" Date: Sunday, 12 February, 2012, 2:51 Brent et all I used. Zinser 1-2-3 throughout my boat to cover (seal) the spray foam insulation. It seems to have had no effect on the foam and has provided a protective and waterproof layer of protection over the foam. Where I have needed to remove foam, I just cut it away, make the changes, spray the  "canned" foam in the site, trim it flush and repaint with Zinser 1 2 3. Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 00:14:31 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? Almost all paints will dissolve Styrofoam , except possibly latex. Try it on a piece first. Styrofoam is probably far more water repellent than  latex anyway , far more so than Urethane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Would you recommend painting styrene foam with anything to keep water out entirely? Latex was a guess. > > --- On Sat, 11/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 23:55 > > I've thought of the same thing on a friend's fibreglass boat. It may work well there, as you don't have to worry about water in the foam as much. Spray can� foam is far more porous than spray foam. A friend did his BS 36 entirely with can foam. He is happy with it, but friends who used it on an aluminium boat said it got soggy dripping wet, as it absorbed the much greater amount of condensation you get with the far more heat conductive aluminium.� > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bty568635" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > > > I have yet to see a small boat for sale in the UK that has what I would call adequate insulation, ie about 2" of foam adhered to the hull/ deckhead etc. Still looking. > > > > I'm not overly attached to this idea, feel free to rubbish it! > > > > Rich > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27619|27585|2012-02-12 08:59:55|jhess314|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Certain types of polystyrene foam blocks are used for buoyancy on floating docks, and the common blueboard and pinkboard styrofoam insulation panels are used to insulate house foundations. So its waterproofness is not an issue. However, because polystyrene produces toxic fumes when heated, and burns when heated enough, in interior house construction polystyrene is required to be protected behind a non-flamable wall, such as sheetrock. I would be cautious in using polystyrene in a boat in any area that might be near a high heat source. One of the best flexible sheet foams for boat use is Armacell. It is used in commercial boats, but it is pricy. There are a number of different grades, some appropriate for a high temp engine room, others for sound deadening. http://www.armacell.com/WWW/armacell/INETArmacell.nsf/standard/1D7A9437E227228580257707003A17AF John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > I'm tempted to break off a couple of chunks of styrofoam, weigh them, stick one in a bucket of fresh water for a month, steam the other one for half an hour in a pressure cooker, and weigh them both again. If neither have increased their weight by more than, say, 1%, I'd consider styrofoam able to look after itself okay without paint, etc. > > All the plastic boats I can afford are old ones, with bare grp/ knackered headlining material/ wooden panelling inside. Luckily they are the knd of boats I like. > | 27620|27585|2012-02-12 10:07:47|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|A friend bought a 17 meter steel hull welded and outfitted in the seventies as a show-off ketch for some leading comrad in the marine authority in southern East Europe (Bulgaria), where condensation is an issue only two month a year at all, and only as long as heavy use including overnite-heating produces particular amounts of moist. Thus the inside painting was done in a Bulgarian kolchos-way with socialist brotherstate-paint. He brought this compareably well-loved vessel to the Baltic Sea via Danube and the canals, added a heating stove and became everything but happy with the rust emerging already in first fall. His boat was NOT refurbishable without removing next to all installed furniture, liners etc. (he tried with no visible success a sort of "floating restoration" for four years, though...) to make accessible all those thousands lieus of interest. He learnt a lot about cursing fluent when he finally decided to restore her properly (reads inside sandblasting) for her extrodinary excellent sailing capabilities, what meant to destroy four years of hard work already dumped in. Depending on what sort of use You intend, You may think about some absolute standards You should and will not underrun in ANY case, no matter what amounts of money are involved first place. A steelboat without an initial proper inside paint on bare (reads sandblasted again) surfaces would definitely bring You a lot more work and eat probably more money than a bare hull You'd fit out below decks Yourself from scratch. When it comes to GRP, there it depends a lot on which wharf/boatyard had built this exact vessel to which exact date, for You could find balsa-cored sandwich laminates, balsa endgrain-cored sandwich laminates, PVC-foam-cored or even mahogany- or teak-cored laminates (Cheoy Lee of Hong Kong was a teak-coring place for decades no matter which designers lines they built) as well as massive laminates with or without inner topcoat of very different qualities concerning the resins as well as the different (chemical) sorts of glass reinforcement. Some of the GRP-hulls have their "better" resins only below waterline (reads construction waterline), what brings sudden osmosis problems when You live aboard with all Your possesions and provisions 'cause this lifts Your actual waterline into the crap-resin region for the decisive inches ... To change a leisurevessel into a high latitude liveaboard, You will definitely have to change a lot more than the head's bowl and the mattresses, not to mention "just" put in a nice Refleks dieselburner. Adding a proper heating will create a need for proper insulation and ventilation, and there are a whole lot of mistakes to make. Simple Styrofoam takes water almost like sponge while an absolute bitch to tightly fit in. Waterrepellent formulations are available for some more bucks per cube-inch, still leaves You with the melonfarming bloody fitting to concave insides. And You'll have a ball removing the electrostatic crumbles sticking inside ANY place You didn't even know exists. I wouldn't rely on this in marine environment. On steel I'd prefer the 2 part sprayfoam (PU) already mentioned, presupposed the paint underneath is flawless. (Leaves You with the deinstallation of some complicated outfits in advance.) On GRP I built some different and wellworking insulations from closed-cell PVC-foam (airtightly vacuum-bagged to place together with a cover of prepreg-epoxy-glass, simply baked in with a slightly modified 100 KW dieselheater we borrowed from a circus for a week), close-cell PU-foam sheets cut from 2 cm excercising mattressses (a really nice'n'cosy material for heavily rounded surfaces), built in with lightweight highbuild epoxy glue under slight vacuum, no cover, and with spray foam PU 2 part on thoroughly topcoated massive GRP, while my attention usually lies on the inhibition of voids between insulation and hull. If You really want to live aboard all year round in higher latitudes You should also think about what happens with Your portholes when it's freezing, for building some 3 centimeters of sheer ice on the frame of an aluminium skylight we succeeded in one simple Bora-night with only fife negative degrees Celsius in Croatia (not an extreme latitude anyway) in February, no joy when partly falling into sleepers face, not to mention the dripping, a thing like chinese water-torture. Cheers G_B Am 12.02.2012 um 01:30 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > > > All the plastic boats I can afford are old ones, with bare grp/ knackered headlining material/ wooden panelling inside. Luckily they are the knd of boats I like. > . > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27621|27585|2012-02-12 11:39:39|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|My quick tests confirm that my styrofoam soaks up water vapour and cold water. 2x  8 gram samples, one steamed, one submerged overnight came out at 14 and 11 grams respectively, after careful drying by hand. I'm not sure how far the water  penetrated in either case; I may repeat the tests over a longer time using salt water, and test the conductivity of slices taken from different depths. Or I could add dye to the water. 'close-cell PU-foam sheets'...This isn't the same as upholstery foam, I take it? Did you glass these in, or put a lining material over them? Flame retardant foam would be needed here I think. I have been thinking how to double glaze portholes, etc. Small conventional glass 'sealed units' bonded onto the insides of fixed portholes and skylights may work, with appropriate trim around them. I agree that it's worth only looking at boats where the quality of inside paint is known to be thoroughly excellent, and that fully removing and refitting the interior to spray with 2 part foam is best if it's not already built in. Hell of a job though. Ideally I should limit my choices to boats where good paint and foam is already in place;- As you said, high minimum standards apply, for a vessel which is required to be a year round home, and not a rotting cave of despair. As for GRP boats, it may still be worth finding an abandoned refit of a known and reliable make, and basically rebuilding the interior around some form of insulation. Not easy, with the coachroof on, and only the companionway for access. I have to face the possibilty that if I can't afford a boat that's insulated properly, I can't afford to live on a boat! --- On Sun, 12/2/12, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: From: Giuseppe Bergman Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 12 February, 2012, 15:07 A friend bought a 17 meter steel hull welded and outfitted in the seventies as a show-off ketch for some leading comrad in the marine authority in southern East Europe (Bulgaria), where condensation is an issue only two month a year at all, and only as long as heavy use including overnite-heating produces particular amounts of moist. Thus the inside painting was done in a Bulgarian kolchos-way with socialist brotherstate-paint. He brought this compareably well-loved vessel to the Baltic Sea via Danube and the canals, added a heating stove and became everything but happy with the rust emerging already in first fall. His boat was NOT refurbishable without removing next to all installed furniture, liners etc. (he tried with no visible success a sort of "floating restoration" for four years, though...) to make accessible all those thousands lieus of interest. He learnt a lot about cursing fluent when he finally decided to restore her properly (reads inside sandblasting) for her extrodinary excellent sailing capabilities, what meant to destroy four years of hard work already dumped in. Depending on what sort of use You intend, You may think about some absolute standards You should and will not underrun in ANY case, no matter what amounts of money are involved first place. A steelboat without an initial proper inside paint on bare (reads sandblasted again) surfaces would definitely bring You a lot more work and eat probably more money than a bare hull You'd fit out below decks Yourself from scratch. When it comes to GRP, there it depends a lot on which wharf/boatyard had built this exact vessel to which exact date, for You could find balsa-cored sandwich laminates, balsa endgrain-cored sandwich laminates, PVC-foam-cored or even mahogany- or teak-cored laminates (Cheoy Lee of Hong Kong was a teak-coring place for decades no matter which designers lines they built) as well as massive laminates with or without inner topcoat of very different qualities concerning the resins as well as the different (chemical) sorts of glass reinforcement. Some of the GRP-hulls have their "better" resins only below waterline (reads construction waterline), what brings sudden osmosis problems when You live aboard with all Your possesions and provisions 'cause this lifts Your actual waterline into the crap-resin region for the decisive inches ... To change a leisurevessel into a high latitude liveaboard, You will definitely have to change a lot more than the head's bowl and the mattresses, not to mention "just" put in a nice Refleks dieselburner. Adding a proper heating will create a need for proper insulation and ventilation, and there are a whole lot of mistakes to make. Simple Styrofoam takes water almost like sponge while an absolute bitch to tightly fit in. Waterrepellent formulations are available for some more bucks per cube-inch, still leaves You with the melonfarming bloody fitting to concave insides. And You'll have a ball removing the electrostatic crumbles sticking inside ANY place You didn't even know exists. I wouldn't rely on this in marine environment. On steel I'd prefer the 2 part sprayfoam (PU) already mentioned, presupposed the paint underneath is flawless. (Leaves You with the deinstallation of some complicated outfits in advance.) On GRP I built some different and wellworking insulations from closed-cell PVC-foam (airtightly vacuum-bagged to place together with a cover of prepreg-epoxy-glass, simply baked in with a slightly modified 100 KW dieselheater we borrowed from a circus for a week), close-cell PU-foam sheets cut from 2 cm excercising mattressses (a really nice'n'cosy material for heavily rounded surfaces), built in with lightweight highbuild epoxy glue under slight vacuum, no cover, and with spray foam PU 2 part on thoroughly topcoated massive GRP, while my attention usually lies on the inhibition of voids between insulation and hull. If You really want to live aboard all year round in higher latitudes You should also think about what happens with Your portholes when it's freezing, for building some 3 centimeters of sheer ice on the frame of an aluminium skylight we succeeded in one simple Bora-night with only fife negative degrees Celsius in Croatia (not an extreme latitude anyway) in February, no joy when partly falling into sleepers face, not to mention the dripping, a thing like chinese water-torture. Cheers G_B Am 12.02.2012 um 01:30 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > > > All the plastic boats I can afford are old ones, with bare grp/ knackered headlining material/ wooden panelling inside. Luckily they are the knd of boats I like. > . > >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27622|27585|2012-02-12 13:18:35|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: [Bulk] Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insu|Hi there > 'close-cell PU-foam sheets'...This isn't the same as upholstery foam, I take it? > Nope. It is the material the better yoga-mattresses are made of, 2 cm closed cell polyurethane rubber PUR. Sometimes You get them on sale for next to nothing. My cheapest bargain was about 60 ct (�) per m� from a reseller. > Did you glass these in, or put a lining material over them? > Those were NOT glassed in, way to weak to glass over properly, first layer was epoxied to polyester-topcoat (be aware to choose topcoat with low paraffine) under vacuum, second and third layer (behind liners in doghouse and saloon) were simply glued atop with contact glue (Polychloropren in solvent). Wear occured to today only in hanging lockers > Flame retardant foam would be needed here I think > Flame retardant ...? Nope. Keep Your extinguishers updated (best would be halon for it avoids the mess of foam or powder), be sure You know how to use 'em with Your fire brigade boys when they show off once a year, and never, never ever let anything burn when sleeping or off. > I have been thinking how to double glaze portholes, etc. Small conventional glass 'sealed units' bonded onto the insides of fixed portholes and skylights may work, with appropriate trim around them. > Fixed glass could easily made in insulating doublelayer to any shape with high quality "low-e" glass, just bring a pattern, works very nice while this isn't a giveaway. Insulated opening ports might be available in Norway/Sweden. Other story with moving/opening skylights: here You better completely dump the alu and rebuild in classic teak butterfly-type skylights with doublelayer glass, for even hardwood insulates astonishingly well compared to any alloy. > ... and basically rebuilding the interior around some form of insulation. Not easy, with the coachroof on, and only the companionway for access. > It is possible to work step-by step without removing the disassembled parts from the inside, depends on how much time and endurance You bring (and how far Your sprayer is away from Your building site ...). My sprayer was a slender man and able to hit the spot while leaving alone every place I didn't want to be covered in pooh. I didn't even cover neighbouring wood, he just held cardboard in place to get sharp lines. > As for GRP boats, it may still be worth finding an abandoned refit of a known and reliable make, and basically rebuilding the interior around some form of insulation. > We live in the ultimate absolute high-end buyers market since 2008. You could reduce any asking price in European boat sites by a third to a half before calling first time. People don't like this, but I can tell You there is next to no buyer at all left for vessels on the cheap side with some work to be done due to crisis reasons. And this still is far more serious in North America I hear. Even brokers there repeatedly told me to go to Florida with some decent crinkly cash in hand, for boats usually cost about 10 to 20 percent of their 2007 prices there. > I have to face the possibilty that if I can't afford a boat that's insulated properly, I can't afford to live on a boat! > I do NOT agree. You might be challenged to put in some tricky ideas together with elbow grease and accept quite a layer of callus building on Your palms, but with a neat plan, a good concept to realize and a fair bit of time to put in You get a lot more than You could buy in ready mades. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27623|27522|2012-02-12 13:27:36|GP|Re: Painting topsides.|Thanks Haidan... perhaps there is a supplier somewhere in the valley. I used to have a half a can of Wasser Tar but when I went to access it ...quite useless even though I did put some thinner over it. Hoping to find some kind of product that is similar but keeps better... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Gary, so far i've just been using coal tar epoxy as touch up paint over top of the wasser coal tar, so far it seems to stick pretty well. though it's only been a couple years. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > Brent... I want to repaint my engine bed...previously painted with wasser tar 6 yrs ago. What will stick to it? > > > > Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > Put it on tacky or wet epoxy , or it will fall off in sheets. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > Should I apply the topcoat on the tacky epoxy paint or should I wait > > > > until the next day? > > > > > > > > I am using a water-based acrylic for the topcoats. I would like maximum > > > > adhesion and don't want to have to sand between coats. > > > > > > > > Cheers and thanks, Paul > > > > > > > > > > | 27624|27572|2012-02-12 13:28:27|GP|Re: Hose|... thanks Brian.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard wrote: > > Buck-Algonquin is the company that makes hose specifically for stuffing > boxes. Quite different from any other hose. > http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/hose-for-packing-box-1-3-4i.d.-f-1shaft-104000-/4,17904.html > > > On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 11:40 AM, GP wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > ...thanks...I will look into the clamps but was wondering more about the > > hose. Wire built into the hose sounds like a good idea but it makes the > > hose nearly incapable of being compressed by clamps. ... > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Kodiak clamps are far more powerful. Well worth the extra cost for a > > stuffing box hose. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > > > > > I need a new piece of hose connect the stuffing box to the stern tube. > > I looked at some with wire in it and seemed pretty stiff and not suited for > > clamps to compress it. > > > > > > > > thanks... > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Cheers > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27625|27522|2012-02-12 13:34:19|GP|Re: Painting topsides.|No... it is the original wasser when I painted it on the engine bed 6 yrs ago hasn't budged. I will try coal tar as Haidan suggests. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Did the Wasser fall off? You would have to get it super clean to get anything to stick to it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > Brent... I want to repaint my engine bed...previously painted with wasser tar 6 yrs ago. What will stick to it? > > > > Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > Put it on tacky or wet epoxy , or it will fall off in sheets. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > Should I apply the topcoat on the tacky epoxy paint or should I wait > > > > until the next day? > > > > > > > > I am using a water-based acrylic for the topcoats. I would like maximum > > > > adhesion and don't want to have to sand between coats. > > > > > > > > Cheers and thanks, Paul > > > > > > > > > > | 27626|27585|2012-02-12 13:41:03|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|The hull was spray painted, inside and out, with 2 coats of marine grade primer, about 5 yrs ago. Foam was applied, by a local spray foam contractor, about 2 yrs. after. Average foam thickness was 3" to 5" (to cover 1.5" angle iron plus 1"x3" wood strips). Most areas were substantially thicker than that. I "carved" most areas flush with the 1x3 "studs" to accomodate gluing 1/8" paneling to the studs. Many "yard waste" plastic bags of foam were shaved. No sign of moisture or rust to date. Heating the interior requires minimal energy - especially if the ports and hatches are covered with 1" rigid foam during the cold months. Hope that helps. Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: richard.barwell@... Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 13:00:01 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? Gord, Was your boat originally sprayed all over inside with canned foam? How long ago? Have you ever uncovered any areas that did'nt seem to have adhered properly? Richard --- On Sun, 12/2/12, gschnell@... wrote: From: gschnell@... Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: "Virginia Will" Date: Sunday, 12 February, 2012, 2:51 Brent et all I used. Zinser 1-2-3 throughout my boat to cover (seal) the spray foam insulation. It seems to have had no effect on the foam and has provided a protective and waterproof layer of protection over the foam. Where I have needed to remove foam, I just cut it away, make the changes, spray the� "canned" foam in the site, trim it flush and repaint with Zinser 1 2 3. Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 00:14:31 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? Almost all paints will dissolve Styrofoam , except possibly latex. Try it on a piece first. Styrofoam is probably far more water repellent than� latex anyway , far more so than Urethane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Would you recommend painting styrene foam with anything to keep water out entirely? Latex was a guess. > > --- On Sat, 11/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 23:55 > > I've thought of the same thing on a friend's fibreglass boat. It may work well there, as you don't have to worry about water in the foam as much. Spray can��� foam is far more porous than spray foam. A friend did his BS 36 entirely with can foam. He is happy with it, but friends who used it on an aluminium boat said it got soggy dripping wet, as it absorbed the much greater amount of condensation you get with the far more heat conductive aluminium.��� > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bty568635" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > > > I have yet to see a small boat for sale in the UK that has what I would call adequate insulation, ie about 2" of foam adhered to the hull/ deckhead etc. Still looking. > > > > I'm not overly attached to this idea, feel free to rubbish it! > > > > Rich > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���������origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27627|9744|2012-02-12 13:43:39|GP|Foam|I have about a 1 foot square section of soggy foam in my engine room due to wear and tear of accessing the engine. From what I hear discussed I am going to cut out the soggy section and spray with canned foam and then paint over the foam with a waterproof paint? Would that be effective? My hull was prepared with Brent's specs so it will be interesting to see if there is any inside rust which I really doubt. That Wasser Tar is some kind of tough barrier to water. There is absolutely no rust in my bilge which is exposed Wasser Tar. Gary| 27628|27628|2012-02-12 13:44:47|GP|Skeg|Brent...how often do you need to change the coolant it the skeg. I was thinking that eventually rust and sediments may build up in there. Gary| 27629|27585|2012-02-12 13:50:19|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: [Bulk] Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insu|Thanks, that's very encouraging actually. It seemed to me to be a buyers market; I've seen some confusingly cheap boats around, and wondered what is so wrong with them that their owners are asking way less for them than the equivalent boat would have been 10+ years ago. I like the idea of 'yoga mat' material, it sounds like a good option for insulating a section at a time, and avoiding paying someone to spray all in one go. I don't imagine that the cost of spray foaming has gone down. I could buy a boat and work on it over a few months, specifically to make it 'winterable' ( All this still assumes the interior paint is pretty much perfect... not sure how to know for certain) I take it that gluing it rigorously to the hull was to avoid condensation and osmosis? Would glued in PUR foam work in a steel hull? Also, you mentioned that you would never leave something lit while asleep; would you include diesel stoves in this? Thanks! R --- On Sun, 12/2/12, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: From: Giuseppe Bergman Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 12 February, 2012, 18:18 Hi there > 'close-cell PU-foam sheets'...This isn't the same as upholstery foam, I take it? > Nope. It is the material the better yoga-mattresses are made of, 2 cm closed cell polyurethane rubber PUR. Sometimes You get them on sale for next to nothing. My cheapest bargain was about 60 ct (€) per m² from a reseller. > Did you glass these in, or put a lining material over them? > Those were NOT glassed in, way to weak to glass over properly, first layer was epoxied to polyester-topcoat (be aware to choose topcoat with low paraffine) under vacuum, second and third layer (behind liners in doghouse and saloon) were simply glued atop with contact glue (Polychloropren in solvent). Wear occured to today only in hanging lockers > Flame retardant foam would be needed here I think > Flame retardant ...? Nope. Keep Your extinguishers updated (best would be halon for it avoids the mess of foam or powder), be sure You know  how to use 'em with Your fire brigade boys when they show off once a year, and never, never ever let anything burn when sleeping or off. > I have been thinking how to double glaze portholes, etc. Small conventional glass 'sealed units' bonded onto the insides of fixed portholes and skylights may work, with appropriate trim around them. > Fixed glass could easily made in insulating doublelayer to any shape with high quality "low-e" glass, just bring a pattern, works very nice while this isn't a giveaway. Insulated opening ports might be available in Norway/Sweden. Other story with moving/opening skylights: here You better completely dump the alu and rebuild in classic teak butterfly-type skylights with doublelayer glass, for even hardwood insulates astonishingly well compared to any alloy. > ...  and basically rebuilding the interior around some form of insulation. Not easy, with the coachroof on, and only the companionway for access. > It is possible to work step-by step without removing the disassembled parts from the inside, depends on how much time and endurance You bring (and how far Your sprayer is away from Your building site ...). My sprayer was a slender man and able to hit the spot while leaving alone every place I didn't want to be covered in pooh. I didn't even cover neighbouring wood, he just held cardboard in place to get sharp lines. > As for GRP boats, it may still be worth finding an abandoned refit of a known and reliable make, and basically rebuilding the interior around some form of insulation. > We live in the ultimate absolute high-end buyers market since 2008. You could reduce any asking price in European boat sites by a third to a half before calling first time. People don't like this, but I can tell You there is next to no buyer at all left for vessels on the cheap side with some work to be done due to crisis reasons. And this still is far more serious in North America I hear. Even brokers there repeatedly told me to go to Florida with some decent crinkly cash in hand, for boats usually cost about 10 to 20 percent of their 2007 prices there. > I have to face the possibilty that if I can't afford a boat that's insulated properly, I can't afford to live on a boat! > I do NOT agree. You might be challenged to put in some tricky ideas together with elbow grease and accept quite a layer of callus building on Your palms, but with a neat plan, a good concept to realize and a fair bit of time to put in You get a lot more than You could buy in ready mades. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27630|27585|2012-02-12 13:53:19|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|So it was just primer underneath? No top coat on the inside? MInimal heating energy sounds good; carry less heating fuel, leave space for other stuff. --- On Sun, 12/2/12, gschnell@... wrote: From: gschnell@... Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: "Virginia Will" Date: Sunday, 12 February, 2012, 18:41 The hull was spray painted, inside and out, with 2 coats of  marine grade primer, about 5 yrs ago. Foam was applied, by a local spray foam contractor,  about 2 yrs. after.  Average foam thickness was  3" to 5" (to cover 1.5" angle iron plus 1"x3" wood strips). Most areas were substantially thicker than that. I "carved" most areas flush with the 1x3 "studs" to accomodate gluing 1/8" paneling to the studs. Many "yard waste" plastic bags of foam were shaved.  No sign of moisture or rust to date. Heating the interior requires minimal energy - especially if the ports and hatches are covered with 1" rigid foam during the cold months. Hope that helps. Gord  Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: richard.barwell@... Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 13:00:01 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? Gord, Was your boat originally sprayed all over inside with canned foam? How long ago? Have you ever uncovered any areas that did'nt seem to have adhered properly? Richard --- On Sun, 12/2/12, gschnell@... wrote: From: gschnell@... Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? To: "Virginia Will" Date: Sunday, 12 February, 2012, 2:51 Brent et all I used. Zinser 1-2-3 throughout my boat to cover (seal) the spray foam insulation. It seems to have had no effect on the foam and has provided a protective and waterproof layer of protection over the foam. Where I have needed to remove foam, I just cut it away, make the changes, spray the  "canned" foam in the site, trim it flush and repaint with Zinser 1 2 3. Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 00:14:31 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? Almost all paints will dissolve Styrofoam , except possibly latex. Try it on a piece first. Styrofoam is probably far more water repellent than  latex anyway , far more so than Urethane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Would you recommend painting styrene foam with anything to keep water out entirely? Latex was a guess. > > --- On Sat, 11/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 23:55 > > I've thought of the same thing on a friend's fibreglass boat. It may work well there, as you don't have to worry about water in the foam as much. Spray can� foam is far more porous than spray foam. A friend did his BS 36 entirely with can foam. He is happy with it, but friends who used it on an aluminium boat said it got soggy dripping wet, as it absorbed the much greater amount of condensation you get with the far more heat conductive aluminium.� > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bty568635" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > > > I have yet to see a small boat for sale in the UK that has what I would call adequate insulation, ie about 2" of foam adhered to the hull/ deckhead etc. Still looking. > > > > I'm not overly attached to this idea, feel free to rubbish it! > > > > Rich > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27631|9744|2012-02-12 13:56:24|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: Foam|I take it that foam wouldn't be glued over Wasser tar? I haven't ever met the stuff, but it sounds like it wouldn't take adhesive? Does it give off VOC's? Wondering about health implications. --- On Sun, 12/2/12, GP wrote: From: GP Subject: [origamiboats] Foam To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 12 February, 2012, 18:43 I have about a 1 foot square section of soggy foam in my engine room due to wear and tear of accessing the engine.  From what I hear discussed I am going to cut out the soggy section and spray with canned foam and then paint over the foam with a waterproof paint?  Would that be effective?  My hull was prepared with Brent's specs so it will be interesting to see if there is any inside rust which I really doubt.  That Wasser Tar is some kind of tough barrier to water.  There is absolutely no rust in my bilge which is exposed Wasser Tar. Gary ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27632|9744|2012-02-12 14:05:47|Paul Wilson|Re: Foam|Unless you really want to look at the hull, I would try to dry the existing foam. It will take awhile but it is better foam than foam from a can. I have painted foam with latex sundeck coating. It is tough and relatively cheap. Works well. Cheers, Paul On 13/02/2012 7:43 a.m., GP wrote: > > I have about a 1 foot square section of soggy foam in my engine room > due to wear and tear of accessing the engine. From what I hear > discussed I am going to cut out the soggy section and spray with > canned foam and then paint over the foam with a waterproof paint? > Would that be effective? My hull was prepared with Brent's specs so it > will be interesting to see if there is any inside rust which I really > doubt. That Wasser Tar is some kind of tough barrier to water. There > is absolutely no rust in my bilge which is exposed Wasser Tar. > > Gary > > | 27633|27585|2012-02-12 14:32:47|Gord Schnell|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Zinser 1-2-3 works very well with spray-foam insulation. It does not react with the foam, binds incredibly well to it and provides a water-proof seal. I have "painted" the entire interior surface of my foamed boat with Zinser...available at Home Depot and others. Gord On 2012-02-11, at 4:14 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Almost all paints will dissolve Styrofoam , except possibly latex. Try it on a piece first. Styrofoam is probably far more water repellent than latex anyway , far more so than Urethane. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > > > Would you recommend painting styrene foam with anything to keep water out entirely? Latex was a guess. > > > > --- On Sat, 11/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 23:55 > > > > I've thought of the same thing on a friend's fibreglass boat. It may work well there, as you don't have to worry about water in the foam as much. Spray can��� foam is far more porous than spray foam. A friend did his BS 36 entirely with can foam. He is happy with it, but friends who used it on an aluminium boat said it got soggy dripping wet, as it absorbed the much greater amount of condensation you get with the far more heat conductive aluminium.��� > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bty568635" wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > > > > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > > > > > I have yet to see a small boat for sale in the UK that has what I would call adequate insulation, ie about 2" of foam adhered to the hull/ deckhead etc. Still looking. > > > > > > I'm not overly attached to this idea, feel free to rubbish it! > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:���������origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27634|9744|2012-02-12 14:34:31|David Jones|Re: Foam|I use only closed cell foam insulation, especially in all wet environments... Listening in on this conversation about foam, I don't think enough information has been included in many of the responses. There is a significant difference in performance between closed and open cell foam in wet environments... dj On Sun, 12 Feb 2012, GP wrote: > > > I have about a 1 foot square section of soggy foam in my engine room due to wear and tear of accessing the engine. From what I hear discussed I am going > to cut out the soggy section and spray with canned foam and then paint over the foam with a waterproof paint? Would that be effective? My hull was > prepared with Brent's specs so it will be interesting to see if there is any inside rust which I really doubt. That Wasser Tar is some kind of tough > barrier to water. There is absolutely no rust in my bilge which is exposed Wasser Tar. > > Gary > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27635|27585|2012-02-12 15:46:46|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: [Bulk] Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insu|> It seemed to me to be a buyers market; I've seen some confusingly cheap boats around, and wondered what is so wrong with them that their owners are asking way less for them than the equivalent boat would have been 10+ years ago. > Yeah, what did I search for the clubfeet in those ominously cheap offers! The only thing wrong is: there is not one buyer in sight, and people have to pay for the slip, they have to pay for haul out, pay for haul in again after they paid for marine grade biocide bottom paint, marine grade engine oil changed by marine grade mechanics, working together with marine grade naturally yellowhaired secretaries in the lobby of their yachtclub, and all that year after year after year while they have no more time left to sail, due to long hours they have to work, just to pay for their marine grade hobby ... > I take it that gluing it rigorously to the hull was to avoid condensation and osmosis > Yepp. Works best under vacuum. > Would glued in PUR foam work in a steel hull? > I doubt this. For an all-year steel-liveaboard in extreme climates with regularly enduring freeze I'd go the sprayfoam way. > Also, you mentioned that you would never leave something lit while asleep; would you include diesel stoves in this? > Nope. As long as it's my stove. That is: I installed it, together with the required ventilation for room and burner, probably together with an alarm for CO beside my berth. That is further: I know about the exact condition of burner and exhaust, I know about the weather and what the stove can take with its actual exhaust ending, depending on which tack and under which canvas in what sort of swell I hove to, or where and how am moored. I suppose if it is a Refleks I'd even sleep well for a while. (I hold no shares ;-) By the way: if You go messing around with the fire brigadiers on their open house day, they will definitely show You on request what happens to a tiny diesel fire under a wash of saltwater. You don't risk to sleep beside this. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27636|27585|2012-02-12 19:48:24|jhess314|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Gord, How did you shave the foam? John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell@... wrote: > > Many "yard waste" plastic bags of foam were shaved. No sign of moisture or rust to date. Gord | 27637|26545|2012-02-12 20:49:06|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (welding time estimate)|Welding time ESTIMATE. This example uses data for GMAW-S process (only because data was available). Note: GMAW-S SHOULD NOT be used on real steel boat project! Use SMAW (Stick welding)! 1. Calculating time for 100% (=1.0) operating factor. It is based on speed of travel for given welding process, wire and metal thickness. Welding Hours = ((WeldingLength/DepositionRate) * OperatingFactor) Note: Divide by 60 if travel speed in "unit per minute" Welding Hours for Hull (3/16" plate, welding length 4725 inches, travel speed 17 inch per minute, operating factor 1.0) ((4725/17) * 1.0) / 60 =~ 278 / 60 = 4.63 hour Deck, Cabin, PilotHouse, FootWell 1/8" = 3.94 Hr Tween Keels (both) 1/4", ½" = 3.09 Hr Tank top 3/16" = 0.77 Hr Skeg, Rudder 1/8" = 1.31 Hr 2. THIS IS UNREALISTIC TIME. To get more realistic time, use Operating Factor coefficient: Operating factor Manual SMAW 30% = 0.3 (Portable units 0.3, in reality ~0.1 ) - take smallest one Semiautomatic 40% = 0.4 (Portable units 0.2, in reality ~0.1), take smallest one Because most small units have duty cycle ~ 20%, Operating factor should not be more than 0.2. In reality it would be less than 0.1 (instead of 0.4) It gives us ESTIMATED TIME for welding (welding only - without cutting): RealisticTime = Time in Hr * 0.1 Deck, Cabin, PilotHouse, FootWell 1/8" = 39.4 Hr Tween Keels (both) 1/4", ½" = 30.9 Hr Tank top 3/16" = 7.7 Hr Skeg, Rudder 1/8" = 13.1 Hr I think it would be appropriate to double (or even triple) time for "backyard boatbuilder". Does this estimated time looks right? Input from people who already done some welding on the project would be greatly appreciated. > > Length is in meters (m)! (Multiply on ~3.3 for feet OR ~39.4 for inches) : > > Hull, transom =~ 120 m > Deck, Cabin, PilotHouse, FootWell = ~ 120 m > Tween Keels (both) =~ 80 m > Tank top = ~ 20 m > Skeg, Rudder =~ 40m > > > > > Higher electrode efficiencies than SMAW, 93% vs. 64% > > > > Restricted to sheet metal thickness range of .035"-1/8" and open roots of 3/16" or less. (My Note: the chart gives info for 1/4" plate) > > > > ***** > > We are looking for information for 1/8", 3/16", 1/4, 1/2 Plates for boat project > > ***** > > > > Welding Guidelines for Carbon and Low Alloy Steel > > Short-Circuiting Transfer — Horizontal Fillets and Flat Butt Joints > > > > Plate 10 gauge > > 1. Wire - 0.035", Wire Speed 250 - IPM, 175A/22DC+, Travel Speed 20 IPM, Burning rate ~3 Lb/h > > 2. Wire - 0.045", Wire Speed 125 - IPM, 145A/19DC+, Travel Speed 20 IPM, Burning rate ~3 Lb/h > > > > Note: > > - Need to find metal deposit/burning rate from a chart to convert it to LBs, > > - 0.045" wire requires LESS current & voltage. > > > > Plate 3/16" > > 1. Wire - 0.045", Wire Speed 150 - IPM, 165A/20DC+, Travel Speed 17 IPM, Burning rate ~3.75-4 Lb/h > > > > Plate 1/4" > > > > 1. Wire - 0.045", Wire Speed 200 - IPM, 200A/21DC+, Travel Speed 17 IPM, Burning rate ~5.5 Lb/h > > > | 27638|26545|2012-02-12 21:34:26|Aaron|Re: Basic welding questions (welding time estimate)|Brent has bid the average time for weld out at 100 hrs Aaron  From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 4:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (welding time estimate)   Welding time ESTIMATE. This example uses data for GMAW-S process (only because data was available). Note: GMAW-S SHOULD NOT be used on real steel boat project! Use SMAW (Stick welding)! 1. Calculating time for 100% (=1.0) operating factor. It is based on speed of travel for given welding process, wire and metal thickness. Welding Hours = ((WeldingLength/DepositionRate) * OperatingFactor) Note: Divide by 60 if travel speed in "unit per minute" Welding Hours for Hull (3/16" plate, welding length 4725 inches, travel speed 17 inch per minute, operating factor 1.0) ((4725/17) * 1.0) / 60 =~ 278 / 60 = 4.63 hour Deck, Cabin, PilotHouse, FootWell 1/8" = 3.94 Hr Tween Keels (both) 1/4", ½" = 3.09 Hr Tank top 3/16" = 0.77 Hr Skeg, Rudder 1/8" = 1.31 Hr 2. THIS IS UNREALISTIC TIME. To get more realistic time, use Operating Factor coefficient: Operating factor Manual SMAW 30% = 0.3 (Portable units 0.3, in reality ~0.1 ) - take smallest one Semiautomatic 40% = 0.4 (Portable units 0.2, in reality ~0.1), take smallest one Because most small units have duty cycle ~ 20%, Operating factor should not be more than 0.2. In reality it would be less than 0.1 (instead of 0.4) It gives us ESTIMATED TIME for welding (welding only - without cutting): RealisticTime = Time in Hr * 0.1 Deck, Cabin, PilotHouse, FootWell 1/8" = 39.4 Hr Tween Keels (both) 1/4", ½" = 30.9 Hr Tank top 3/16" = 7.7 Hr Skeg, Rudder 1/8" = 13.1 Hr I think it would be appropriate to double (or even triple) time for "backyard boatbuilder". Does this estimated time looks right? Input from people who already done some welding on the project would be greatly appreciated. > > Length is in meters (m)! (Multiply on ~3.3 for feet OR ~39.4 for inches) : > > Hull, transom =~ 120 m > Deck, Cabin, PilotHouse, FootWell = ~ 120 m > Tween Keels (both) =~ 80 m > Tank top = ~ 20 m > Skeg, Rudder =~ 40m > > > > > Higher electrode efficiencies than SMAW, 93% vs. 64% > > > > Restricted to sheet metal thickness range of .035"-1/8" and open roots of 3/16" or less. (My Note: the chart gives info for 1/4" plate) > > > > ***** > > We are looking for information for 1/8", 3/16", 1/4, 1/2 Plates for boat project > > ***** > > > > Welding Guidelines for Carbon and Low Alloy Steel > > Short-Circuiting Transfer — Horizontal Fillets and Flat Butt Joints > > > > Plate 10 gauge > > 1. Wire - 0.035", Wire Speed 250 - IPM, 175A/22DC+, Travel Speed 20 IPM, Burning rate ~3 Lb/h > > 2. Wire - 0.045", Wire Speed 125 - IPM, 145A/19DC+, Travel Speed 20 IPM, Burning rate ~3 Lb/h > > > > Note: > > - Need to find metal deposit/burning rate from a chart to convert it to LBs, > > - 0.045" wire requires LESS current & voltage. > > > > Plate 3/16" > > 1. Wire - 0.045", Wire Speed 150 - IPM, 165A/20DC+, Travel Speed 17 IPM, Burning rate ~3.75-4 Lb/h > > > > Plate 1/4" > > > > 1. Wire - 0.045", Wire Speed 200 - IPM, 200A/21DC+, Travel Speed 17 IPM, Burning rate ~5.5 Lb/h > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27639|27585|2012-02-13 01:59:07|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Best tool..belive it or not, was a good serated bread knife and leather gloves...foam is very abrasive. Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: jhess314 Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 00:48:23 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? Gord, How did you shave the foam? John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell@... wrote: > > Many "yard waste" plastic bags of foam were shaved. No sign of moisture or rust to date. Gord [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27640|27585|2012-02-13 12:04:30|Mark Hamill|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|Shaving foam??--one of those oscillating head cutters works wonders--saw one on sale at Crappy Tire for $32 the other day.Its like shearing a sheep and very little dust. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27641|27585|2012-02-13 14:01:01|Paul Wilson|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|I used a sanding disc on a mini grinder. Worked very fast and was easy but there was dust everywhere. On 14/02/2012 6:04 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > Shaving foam??--one of those oscillating head cutters works > wonders--saw one on sale at Crappy Tire for $32 the other day.Its like > shearing a sheep and very little dust. MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 27642|26545|2012-02-13 16:29:41|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (welding time estimate)|Thanks Aaron. If Brent real project's experience is that welding hours for 36 footer are about 100 hours, then 140-150 hours for 38-39 footer looks reasonable (still probably need to double it for first time builder). Travel speed for SMAW (stick welding) using mix of E6011, E7024, E7018 will be similar (may be even faster compare to GMAW-S in previous example. Let assume it is the same). So, we have estimate for 38-39 footer: Hull 3/16" = 46.3 Hr Deck, Cabin, PilotHouse, FootWell 1/8" = 39.4 Hr Tween Keels (both) 1/4", ½" = 30.9 Hr Tank top 3/16" = 7.7 Hr Skeg, Rudder 1/8" = 13.1 Hr Which gives us about ~ 140-150 welding hours. P.S. Correction for formula: RealisticTime = Time_in_Hr / 0.1 P.S.S Next step to find the cost of consumables (for SMAW and FCAW-SS). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Brent has bid the average time for weld out at 100 hrs > > > Aaron  | 27643|27643|2012-02-14 13:20:14|martin|Foaming the hull|If you are using a commercial applicator make sure they have some experience working in tight spaces, and that they have small enough nozzels and equipment for the job. Most of the people that only do buildings etc. apply the foam as if it were a fire hose. That is where most people end up spending many hours removing all the excess. I too found the good old serated bread knife was the perfect tool for removing the small amounts that I had to trim. I experimented with the spray cans of foam and found that you can't get it to cure properly if it's applied to thick. It also is very soft compared to the commercial foam. Martin..| 27644|27643|2012-02-14 14:04:16|brentswain38|Re: Foaming the hull|Yes, some foamers are real artists and leave very little for you to trim. Others make a hell of a mess, and use far more than needed ( which you pay for) I found that if you heat the blade of a knife at the handle, and bend it 45 degrees, it makes trimming the foam much easier.The knife is far less messy than the grinder, and foam dust is extremely itchy stuff. Make sure you leave at least a half inch of foam over all metal, or any exposed metal will drip condensation like a leaky faucet. Don't trim your foam flush with longitudinals , deck beams and stiffeners , or you will see them in black mold or ice on your panelling. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > If you are using a commercial applicator make sure they have some experience working in tight spaces, and that they have small enough nozzels and equipment for the job. Most of the people that only do buildings etc. apply the foam as if it were a fire hose. That is where most people end up spending many hours removing all the excess. I too found the good old serated bread knife was the perfect tool for removing the small amounts that I had to trim. I experimented with the spray cans of foam and found that you can't get it to cure properly if it's applied to thick. It also is very soft compared to the commercial foam. Martin.. > | 27645|9744|2012-02-14 14:12:16|brentswain38|Re: Foam|I don't think any cover coat will keep water of canned foam. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > I have about a 1 foot square section of soggy foam in my engine room due to wear and tear of accessing the engine. From what I hear discussed I am going to cut out the soggy section and spray with canned foam and then paint over the foam with a waterproof paint? Would that be effective? My hull was prepared with Brent's specs so it will be interesting to see if there is any inside rust which I really doubt. That Wasser Tar is some kind of tough barrier to water. There is absolutely no rust in my bilge which is exposed Wasser Tar. > > Gary > | 27646|27628|2012-02-14 14:15:44|brentswain38|Re: Skeg|Other than the one time the bleed screw fell out and emptied the skeg I haven't, except for replacing that which I've lost thru a small leak. Anti freeze being antio corrosive, there should be very little rust in there, Adding water soluable machinists oil totally eliminates rust. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Brent...how often do you need to change the coolant it the skeg. I was thinking that eventually rust and sediments may build up in there. > > Gary > | 27647|27585|2012-02-14 14:18:43|brentswain38|Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation?|My book covers the importance of a good buildup of epoxy on the inside of the hull, before foaming. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > So it was just primer underneath? No top coat on the inside? > > MInimal heating energy sounds good; carry less heating fuel, leave space for other stuff. > > --- On Sun, 12/2/12, gschnell@... wrote: > > From: gschnell@... > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > To: "Virginia Will" > Date: Sunday, 12 February, 2012, 18:41 > > The hull was spray painted, inside and out, with 2 coats of� marine grade primer, about 5 yrs ago. Foam was applied, by a local spray foam contractor,� about 2 yrs. after.� Average foam thickness was� 3" to 5" (to cover 1.5" angle iron plus 1"x3" wood strips). Most areas were substantially thicker than that. I "carved" most areas flush with the 1x3 "studs" to accomodate gluing 1/8" paneling to the studs. Many "yard waste" plastic bags of foam were shaved.� No sign of moisture or rust to date. Heating the interior requires minimal energy - especially if the ports and hatches are covered with 1" rigid foam during the cold months. Hope that helps. Gord� > Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. > Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. > > -----Original Message----- > From: richard.barwell@... > Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 13:00:01 > To: > Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > > Gord, > > Was your boat originally sprayed all over inside with canned foam? How long ago? Have you ever uncovered any areas that did'nt seem to have adhered properly? > > Richard > > --- On Sun, 12/2/12, gschnell@... wrote: > > From: gschnell@... > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > To: "Virginia Will" > Date: Sunday, 12 February, 2012, 2:51 > > Brent et all > I used. Zinser 1-2-3 throughout my boat to cover (seal) the spray foam insulation. It seems to have had no effect on the foam and has provided a protective and waterproof layer of protection over the foam. Where I have needed to remove foam, I just cut it away, make the changes, spray the� "canned" foam in the site, trim it flush and repaint with Zinser 1 2 3. Gord > Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. > Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 > Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 00:14:31 > To: > Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > > Almost all paints will dissolve Styrofoam , except possibly latex. Try it on a piece first. Styrofoam is probably far more water repellent than� latex anyway , far more so than Urethane. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@ wrote: > > > > Would you recommend painting styrene foam with anything to keep water out entirely? Latex was a guess. > > > > --- On Sat, 11/2/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aerosol can polyurethane foam insulation? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Saturday, 11 February, 2012, 23:55 > > > > I've thought of the same thing on a friend's fibreglass boat. It may work well there, as you don't have to worry about water in the foam as much. Spray can� foam is far more porous than spray foam. A friend did his BS 36 entirely with can foam. He is happy with it, but friends who used it on an aluminium boat said it got soggy dripping wet, as it absorbed the much greater amount of condensation you get with the far more heat conductive aluminium.� > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bty568635" wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Has anyone ever used polyurethane foam spray cans to fill gaps behind cabin furniture to provide isulation? I was thinking this could be done section by section, between hull and lining, without removing the lining, just 'injecting' it into a hole in the center of a plywood lining panel, and waiting untill it bleeds out of a few holes at the corners. And maybe adding more nearer the edges if it hasn't foamed out of the holes yet. > > > > > > Makes insulating into a series of weekend jobs, rather than a major refit with professional assistance. May or may not be economical. > > > > > > I have yet to see a small boat for sale in the UK that has what I would call adequate insulation, ie about 2" of foam adhered to the hull/ deckhead etc. Still looking. > > > > > > I'm not overly attached to this idea, feel free to rubbish it! > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27648|27522|2012-02-14 14:22:25|brentswain38|Re: Painting topsides.|Unless the can is totally full, Wasser will go hard in the can. Even if full, it will still eventually go hard. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Thanks Haidan... perhaps there is a supplier somewhere in the valley. I used to have a half a can of Wasser Tar but when I went to access it ...quite useless even though I did put some thinner over it. Hoping to find some kind of product that is similar but keeps better... Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > > > Gary, so far i've just been using coal tar epoxy as touch up paint over top of the wasser coal tar, so far it seems to stick pretty well. though it's only been a couple years. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > > > Brent... I want to repaint my engine bed...previously painted with wasser tar 6 yrs ago. What will stick to it? > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > Put it on tacky or wet epoxy , or it will fall off in sheets. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Should I apply the topcoat on the tacky epoxy paint or should I wait > > > > > until the next day? > > > > > > > > > > I am using a water-based acrylic for the topcoats. I would like maximum > > > > > adhesion and don't want to have to sand between coats. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers and thanks, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 27649|27522|2012-02-15 08:30:33|jhess314|Re: Painting topsides.|You can extend the shelf-life of any opened paint by cutting out a disc of plastic sheet the diameter of the can, then placing the plastic on the surface of the paint just before closing the can. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Unless the can is totally full, Wasser will go hard in the can. Even if full, it will still eventually go hard. | 27650|26545|2012-02-15 14:19:49|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Prequalified "Matching" Filler Metal for: Shapes and Plates A36 A529, grade 42 A709, grade 36 Round and Rectangular Sections A53, grade B (round) A500, grades A and B (round) A500, grades A and B (rectangular) A501 (round) *************** are *************** SMAW A5.1: E60XX, E70XX A5.5: E70XX-X1 FCAW A5.20: E6XT-X, E6XT-XM E7XT-X, E7XT-XM (Except -2, -2M, -3, -10, -13, -14, -GS) A5.29: E6XTX-X1, E6XTX-X1M E7XTX-X1, E7XTX-X1M GMAW A5.18: ER70S-X, E70C-XC, E70CXM (Except -GS(X)) A5.28: ER70S-X1XX, E70C-X1XX 1 - except alloy groups B3, B3L, B4, B4L, B5, B5L, B6, B6L, B7, B7L, B8, B8L, B9| 27651|27628|2012-02-15 18:07:36|wild_explorer|Re: Skeg coolant|Check archive - it was very detailed discussion about it. If I remember correctly (for cars at least), it is need to change antifreeze ones in 3-5 years, because it becomes more acid and damages cooling system. On a car, I lost water pump, thermostat and radiator because of not changing coolant at all for a long time. Coolant went bad in about 3 years on a car after I replaced all above and put new coolant in it. I think it might be possible to get used coolant from nearest car shop for free. But it will be more likely that bad coolant. P.S. May be fresh water mixed with machinist oil would be better alternative (if no need for dry storage below 32F/0C). But it might have different heat conducting properties. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Brent...how often do you need to change the coolant it the skeg. I was thinking that eventually rust and sediments may build up in there. > > Gary > | 27652|26545|2012-02-16 13:46:37|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I think it would be better to start from Stick Welder (or multi-process unit which have this option). I would like to have unit capable to run on 115/230 1-phase 50/60Hz, but it might be hard to find a unit capable of giving required output amperage @ 110V. Start point for required Amperage (depending on electrode usage): 1/8" E6011 (All positions) AC 75 - 120 DC+ 70 - 110 DC- 70 - 110 1/8" E7018 (All positions except vertical down) DC+ 90 - 160 AC 100 - 160 1/8" E7024 (Flat and Horizontal) AC 115 - 175 DC+ 100 - 160 DC- 100 - 160 Any recommendations/advices?| 27653|27628|2012-02-16 16:44:03|bcboomer1948|Re: Skeg coolant|The antifreeze in engine cooling systems becomes contaminated from tiny amounts of combustion gases seeping through head gaskets and, with diesels, through the aluminium head. Assuming the coolant mix in the skeg circulates through the engine's cooling jacket then it needs to be replaced or reconditioned. Truck service centres are equipped to do this by circulating the coolant through a filter and replenishing the additives. This should be cheaper and more environmentally friendly than throwing it away. I've seen cast iron cylinder liners from a diesel engine that had holes right through them as a result of contaminated coolant. The acidic coolant results in tiny pits in the cast iron. The coolant doesn't circulate in these pits, a bubble of steam forms, collapses with a little splat against the metal, This repeats many times, until there is a hole right through. I'd hate to loose an engine this way and I would be checking the PH of the coolant every 12 mos. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Check archive - it was very detailed discussion about it. If I remember correctly (for cars at least), it is need to change antifreeze ones in 3-5 years, because it becomes more acid and damages cooling system. On a car, I lost water pump, thermostat and radiator because of not changing coolant at all for a long time. Coolant went bad in about 3 years on a car after I replaced all above and put new coolant in it. > > I think it might be possible to get used coolant from nearest car shop for free. But it will be more likely that bad coolant. > > P.S. May be fresh water mixed with machinist oil would be better alternative (if no need for dry storage below 32F/0C). But it might have different heat conducting properties. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > Brent...how often do you need to change the coolant it the skeg. I was thinking that eventually rust and sediments may build up in there. > > > > Gary > > > | 27654|27654|2012-02-17 08:34:56|Denis Buggy|Fw: Attainable Adventure Cruising|Attainable Adventure Cruising, Morgan's Cloud THIS DISCUSSION IS RUNNING IN AN OTHER GROUP WE COULD KEEP AN EYE AND DEBATE THEIR FINDINGS REGARDS DENIS ----- Original Message ----- From: Attainable Adventure Cruising, Morgan's Cloud To: denis@... Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 11:23 AM Subject: Attainable Adventure Cruising Attainable Adventure Cruising -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why not steel?-Part 1 Posted: 16 Feb 2012 06:37 AM PST For a long time I dreamed of a steel yacht as the ideal ocean cruiser, so much so that I came very close to having one built and looked at many boats on the second-hand market. It was a dispiriting... To read the rest of this post, click on the title. You are subscribed to email updates from Attainable Adventure Cruising, Morgan's Cloud To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now. Email delivery powered by Google Google Inc., 20 West Kinzie, Chicago IL USA 60610 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27655|27654|2012-02-17 09:10:06|James Pronk|Re: Fw: Attainable Adventure Cruising|Denis Here is the link to this discussion   http://www.morganscloud.com/   James --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Denis Buggy wrote: From: Denis Buggy Subject: [origamiboats] Fw: Attainable Adventure Cruising To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:34 AM   Attainable Adventure Cruising, Morgan's Cloud THIS DISCUSSION IS RUNNING IN AN OTHER GROUP WE COULD KEEP AN EYE AND DEBATE THEIR FINDINGS REGARDS DENIS ----- Original Message ----- From: Attainable Adventure Cruising, Morgan's Cloud To: denis@... Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 11:23 AM Subject: Attainable Adventure Cruising Attainable Adventure Cruising ---------------------------------------------------------- Why not steel?-Part 1 Posted: 16 Feb 2012 06:37 AM PST For a long time I dreamed of a steel yacht as the ideal ocean cruiser, so much so that I came very close to having one built and looked at many boats on the second-hand market. It was a dispiriting... To read the rest of this post, click on the title. You are subscribed to email updates from Attainable Adventure Cruising, Morgan's Cloud To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now. Email delivery powered by Google Google Inc., 20 West Kinzie, Chicago IL USA 60610 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27656|27628|2012-02-18 13:30:33|GP|Re: Skeg coolant|thanks for the info. The coolant specified for my engine has an aluminum treatment requirement and a 50/50 mix of water/antifreeze. What should the ph balance be as you mention? ...Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bcboomer1948" wrote: > > > > > > The antifreeze in engine cooling systems becomes contaminated from tiny amounts of combustion gases seeping through head gaskets and, with diesels, through the aluminium head. Assuming the coolant mix in the skeg circulates through the engine's cooling jacket then it needs to be replaced or reconditioned. Truck service centres are equipped to do this by circulating the coolant through a filter and replenishing the additives. This should be cheaper and more environmentally friendly than throwing it away. > I've seen cast iron cylinder liners from a diesel engine that had holes right through them as a result of contaminated coolant. The acidic coolant results in tiny pits in the cast iron. The coolant doesn't circulate in these pits, a bubble of steam forms, collapses with a little splat against the metal, This repeats many times, until there is a hole right through. I'd hate to loose an engine this way and I would be checking the PH of the coolant every 12 mos. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Check archive - it was very detailed discussion about it. If I remember correctly (for cars at least), it is need to change antifreeze ones in 3-5 years, because it becomes more acid and damages cooling system. On a car, I lost water pump, thermostat and radiator because of not changing coolant at all for a long time. Coolant went bad in about 3 years on a car after I replaced all above and put new coolant in it. > > > > I think it might be possible to get used coolant from nearest car shop for free. But it will be more likely that bad coolant. > > > > P.S. May be fresh water mixed with machinist oil would be better alternative (if no need for dry storage below 32F/0C). But it might have different heat conducting properties. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > > > Brent...how often do you need to change the coolant it the skeg. I was thinking that eventually rust and sediments may build up in there. > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > | 27657|27628|2012-02-18 16:24:41|Neil Ramsey|Re: Skeg coolant|A pH o 9.8 to 10.2 is ideal and I would be worried i it went below 9.0 Neil On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 10:30 AM, GP wrote: > ** > > > thanks for the info. The coolant specified for my engine has an aluminum > treatment requirement and a 50/50 mix of water/antifreeze. What should the > ph balance be as you mention? > > ...Gary > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27658|26545|2012-02-18 17:10:45|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Any help folks? I know that people in countries with 220VAC are more fortunate - no need to worry for running welder on 110VAC ;) After doing some research on available equipment I found some trend: Most portable units (Stick, Stick/TIG, Multi-process) are inverters with power factor correction give output: 110VAC - up to 100A 220/230VAC - up to 200A Usually, for 110VAC it is limited by INPUT power (15-20A), for 220/230VAC is limited by OUTPUT amperage(IGBT it uses ~ 200A). I found only one interesting unit so far: Miller Maxstar® 200 STR Not cheap! It supports 120-460V AC, 1/3 phase, 50/60Hz (automatically connecting to 120-460 VAC, single- or three- phase power without removing the covers to relink the power source) Other Brand's making some products using dual 115/230VAC: Miller, Lincoln (Invertec series), Hobart, ThermalArc, Everlast, Lotus. May be it would be necessary to power welder from external power source (generator with 230V) to overcome 110VAC limit in area where 230VAC is not available. Another option: to make Brent's weldernator...| 27659|26545|2012-02-19 11:06:46|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I simply would not use a 120 vac welder for building a boat. Forget bad welds, which are a problem, a lot of people never finish, why add slow welding to the problem! Buy a good quality USED industrial welder. Get one with Tig and rent a bottle of gas for one month. Weld up the boat, do the detailing with Tig, then sell off the welder for most or all of what you paid for it. I got a 400 amp welder at a nuclear plant auction for $25 once. Bid on the ones with the cords cut off. When a job finishes the welders will mark a good welder as bad, then cut the cord off so know one will bother testing to see if it really is. then they show up at the auction and get the ‘bad’ welder for a song! A welder driven from a modified alternator is a great idea, for repairs, improvements while you cruise. Gary H. Lucas From: wild_explorer Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) Any help folks? I know that people in countries with 220VAC are more fortunate - no need to worry for running welder on 110VAC ;) After doing some research on available equipment I found some trend: Most portable units (Stick, Stick/TIG, Multi-process) are inverters with power factor correction give output: 110VAC - up to 100A 220/230VAC - up to 200A Usually, for 110VAC it is limited by INPUT power (15-20A), for 220/230VAC is limited by OUTPUT amperage(IGBT it uses ~ 200A). I found only one interesting unit so far: Miller Maxstar® 200 STR Not cheap! It supports 120-460V AC, 1/3 phase, 50/60Hz (automatically connecting to 120-460 VAC, single- or three- phase power without removing the covers to relink the power source) Other Brand's making some products using dual 115/230VAC: Miller, Lincoln (Invertec series), Hobart, ThermalArc, Everlast, Lotus. May be it would be necessary to power welder from external power source (generator with 230V) to overcome 110VAC limit in area where 230VAC is not available. Another option: to make Brent's weldernator... Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27660|26545|2012-02-19 11:40:45|Darren Bos|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Wild, The 220V isn't really a problem most places in North America. Almost all houses are serviced by 220V, using just one of the hot wires and a neutral to provide 110V. If you want a 220V outlet, just use the two hot wires. This is how the stove and dryer outlets are wired. Installing a 220V outlet is an afternoon of work, so unless it is for a small project it doesn't make sense to run on 110V. Even if you buy a 220V only machine you can always run a cord to the nearest stove or dryer outlet if you are doing work away from your normal 220V outlet. Darren At 02:10 PM 18/02/2012, you wrote: > > >Any help folks? I know that people in countries >with 220VAC are more fortunate - no need to >worry for running welder on 110VAC ;) > >After doing some research on available equipment I found some trend: > >Most portable units (Stick, Stick/TIG, >Multi-process) are inverters with power factor correction give output: > >110VAC - up to 100A >220/230VAC - up to 200A > >Usually, for 110VAC it is limited by INPUT power >(15-20A), for 220/230VAC is limited by OUTPUT amperage(IGBT it uses ~ 200A). > >I found only one interesting unit so far: Miller Maxstar® 200 STR > >Not cheap! It supports 120-460V AC, 1/3 phase, >50/60Hz (automatically connecting to 120-460 >VAC, single- or three- phase power without >removing the covers to relink the power source) > >Other Brand's making some products using dual >115/230VAC: Miller, Lincoln (Invertec series), >Hobart, ThermalArc, Everlast, Lotus. > >May be it would be necessary to power welder >from external power source (generator with 230V) >to overcome 110VAC limit in area where 230VAC is not available. > >Another option: to make Brent's weldernator... > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27661|26545|2012-02-19 13:03:23|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|The electric hot water heater is another good one. I do a bit of restaurant repair work with my tig welder.  For small jobs I have a range of hook-ups from wiring straight into the panel to running two cords from outlets run off two different bus bars in the breaker box. I went over this all with a good electrician who showed me how to do this. James --- On Sun, 2/19/12, Darren Bos wrote: From: Darren Bos Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, February 19, 2012, 11:41 AM   Wild, The 220V isn't really a problem most places in North America. Almost all houses are serviced by 220V, using just one of the hot wires and a neutral to provide 110V. If you want a 220V outlet, just use the two hot wires. This is how the stove and dryer outlets are wired. Installing a 220V outlet is an afternoon of work, so unless it is for a small project it doesn't make sense to run on 110V. Even if you buy a 220V only machine you can always run a cord to the nearest stove or dryer outlet if you are doing work away from your normal 220V outlet. Darren At 02:10 PM 18/02/2012, you wrote: > > >Any help folks? I know that people in countries >with 220VAC are more fortunate - no need to >worry for running welder on 110VAC ;) > >After doing some research on available equipment I found some trend: > >Most portable units (Stick, Stick/TIG, >Multi-process) are inverters with power factor correction give output: > >110VAC - up to 100A >220/230VAC - up to 200A > >Usually, for 110VAC it is limited by INPUT power >(15-20A), for 220/230VAC is limited by OUTPUT amperage(IGBT it uses ~ 200A). > >I found only one interesting unit so far: Miller Maxstar® 200 STR > >Not cheap! It supports 120-460V AC, 1/3 phase, >50/60Hz (automatically connecting to 120-460 >VAC, single- or three- phase power without >removing the covers to relink the power source) > >Other Brand's making some products using dual >115/230VAC: Miller, Lincoln (Invertec series), >Hobart, ThermalArc, Everlast, Lotus. > >May be it would be necessary to power welder >from external power source (generator with 230V) >to overcome 110VAC limit in area where 230VAC is not available. > >Another option: to make Brent's weldernator... > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27662|26545|2012-02-19 14:56:54|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Thank you folks (Gary, Darren, James) for releasing my brain from focusing on 110VAC ;). It looks like double voltage 110/230VAC welder just falls into "nice to have" category and you have to pay a HIGH premium for this. I would appreciate if someone did some research and can point to some possible equipment models suitable for boat project. After focusing on 230VAC units, I see much more choices for a reasonable price: Example: Lincoln (Century) Inverter Arc 230 is <$300 (New) http://www.centurytool.net/K2790_1_Lincoln_Electric_155A_DC_Inverter_ARC_230_p/k2790-1.htm (Note: This page has some incorrect information, see Lincoln's specs) SMAW/TIG, Amperage 10-155A DC. It should handle 3/32" & 1/8" E6011, E7018 (enough for boat project). When buying used equipment is a good alternative, personally, I would avoid to buy welding equipment at the auction. Simply because you need to know welding equipment REALLY GOOD to make right choice about condition and reasonable price of the item. I read a lot of bad reviews on some new equipment compare to old models (major brands). You need to know what the good models are - not easy. As always - simpler is better ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I simply would not use a 120 vac welder for building a boat. Forget bad welds, which are a problem, a lot of people never finish, why add slow welding to the problem! Buy a good quality USED industrial welder. Get one with Tig and rent a bottle of gas for one month. Weld up the boat, do the detailing with Tig, then sell off the welder for most or all of what you paid for it. > | 27663|27663|2012-02-19 15:52:05|sunbear|Solar Panels at Can T|I see in the Comox Valley flyer that 30 watt panels are on sale for $99 regularily $249. MarkH| 27664|27663|2012-02-19 17:43:45|M.J. Malone|Re: Solar Panels at Can T|They have been on twice now for that sale. Problem with those panels is that they are amorphous, and very large for their power. Also I have been told one glob of bird crap anywhere on them and they produce no power until cleaned. I used 2 of these 15 watt panels on my weekender 23 foot and they worked ok for 2 years. I used the battery charge controller also from ct. After that they were pooched. 100mA or less in full sun instead of 1A. Also at $3.33/Watt they are pricey. I have a few more, wished I had not bought them. I like the little 1.8W panels from ct for battery maintaining. The panels are low voltage and have a built-in pulse-boost circuit to charge 12V batteries. It pulses faster in stronger sun to give a higher power. I have one mounted in the skylight in my cabin. Even with a foot of snow on my skylight, the little sun that comes through keeps the automotive battery charged. I use the automotive battery with a 300 W ct inverter to run a string of white LED Christmas lights, charge my phone, run a portable dvd player. I will use the 15W panels I have, because I have them, but only behind glass in a structure. When I need more power, I will buy real panels for a fraction of the price per Watt. Matt sunbear wrote: I see in the Comox Valley flyer that 30 watt panels are on sale for $99 regularily $249. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27665|26545|2012-02-20 14:34:58|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Darren, I tried to find an information about the differences for power 220VAC/50HZ (European)and 230VAC/60Hz (USA). It looks like it is unsafe (dangerous?) to use the equipment on different sources if it is not designed to use it on both type of AC without modification. It has different wiring. There is no problem to use it on designed AC. As I see, it might be more economical to buy welder just for a job/building a boat (as Gary recommended), sell it later and buy some welder which capable of running on any (worldwide) voltage. Hopefully, inverter type welders will go down in price. Better to watch the price - it went up last couples of weeks for some new equipment ;( Thanks to ALL again for your ideas! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > The 220V isn't really a problem most places in > North America. Almost all houses are serviced by > 220V, using just one of the hot wires and a > neutral to provide 110V. If you want a 220V > outlet, just use the two hot wires. This is how > the stove and dryer outlets are > wired. Installing a 220V outlet is an afternoon > of work, so unless it is for a small project it > doesn't make sense to run on 110V. Even if you > buy a 220V only machine you can always run a cord > to the nearest stove or dryer outlet if you are > doing work away from your normal 220V outlet. > > Darren | 27666|26545|2012-02-20 23:34:39|Darren Bos|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Wild, You should check the welder you are interested in. My Thermal Arc is rated for 208-230V and 50/60Hz. I also checked some of the cheap chinese welders on e-bay and they also were good on 50/60Hz. So I don't think there is a problem. A quick google double check revealed that older transformer units may have more trouble, but there are so many nice inexpensive inverter models to choose from that you should be able to find something if international portability is a priority. Darren At 11:34 AM 20/02/2012, you wrote: > > >Darren, I tried to find an information about the >differences for power 220VAC/50HZ (European)and >230VAC/60Hz (USA). It looks like it is unsafe >(dangerous?) to use the equipment on different >sources if it is not designed to use it on both >type of AC without modification. It has different wiring. > >There is no problem to use it on designed AC. As >I see, it might be more economical to buy welder >just for a job/building a boat (as Gary >recommended), sell it later and buy some welder >which capable of running on any (worldwide) >voltage. Hopefully, inverter type welders will go down in price. > >Better to watch the price - it went up last >couples of weeks for some new equipment ;( > >Thanks to ALL again for your ideas! > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Wild, > > The 220V isn't really a problem most places in > > North America. Almost all houses are serviced by > > 220V, using just one of the hot wires and a > > neutral to provide 110V. If you want a 220V > > outlet, just use the two hot wires. This is how > > the stove and dryer outlets are > > wired. Installing a 220V outlet is an afternoon > > of work, so unless it is for a small project it > > doesn't make sense to run on 110V. Even if you > > buy a 220V only machine you can always run a cord > > to the nearest stove or dryer outlet if you are > > doing work away from your normal 220V outlet. > > > > Darren > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27667|27667|2012-02-21 14:24:33|mkriley48|coal tar over oil based paint|brent, Do you know of anybody that applied coal tar over oil based paint? New work with no rust. thanks mike| 27668|27667|2012-02-21 14:34:45|brentswain38|Re: coal tar over oil based paint|I've lapped it onto surrounding oil based paint during touch ups. If the oil based paint is old , no problem, but if it is not old ,it will lift oil base paint. Over epoxy , chalking on old epoxy ,or amine blush on new , but hardened epoxy , will prevent it from sticking. On fresh epoxy with no amine blush, no problem. On mat urethane, no problem, but on glossy urethane, you would have to first rough up the urethane before putting epoxy tar on , to get a good bond. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > brent, > Do you know of anybody that applied coal tar over oil based paint? > New work with no rust. > thanks > mike > | 27669|26545|2012-02-21 15:57:30|Paul Wilson|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I recently bought a cheap Chinese inverter welder and run it on single phase 230 volt (I am in NZ). It welds much, much nicer than the cheap chinese transformer welder I have been using previously on the same power source. The inverter welder's arc voltage is higher (especially when running on a long extension cord) so it is much easier to strike an arc and the weld is much smoother. Anyway, the welder works great and here are the specs if you want to compare to others. They come under many different names so google away. I paid about $400 NZ. Cheers, Paul ZX7-200 200Amp inverting stick welder with single phase Brand new Inverter Stick welding machine It can be used as a Tig with our special tig torch. Speicifications: Power voltage (V) AC230V No-load voltage (V) 60V-80v Output current range (A) 10~200A Duty cycle 60% for 200A Case protection level IP21 Weight 9.5Kg Dimensions(mm) 340X150X230 On 21/02/2012 4:50 p.m., Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > > You should check the welder you are interested > in. My Thermal Arc is rated for 208-230V and > 50/60Hz. I also checked some of the cheap > chinese welders on e-bay and they also were good > on 50/60Hz. So I don't think there is a > problem. A quick google double check revealed > that older transformer units may have more > trouble, but there are so many nice inexpensive > inverter models to choose from that you should be > able to find something if international portability is a priority. > > Darren ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email --> > > | 27671|27671|2012-02-21 21:11:43|meademd@aol.com|Brent Swain Boat in Sail Mag|I was pleased to see a Brent Swain design boat featured in a picture in the Cruising Section page 24 of the March 2012 edition of Sail Magazine, Picture was taken in Comox It is not Brent's boat but I am sure he knows whose it is. Bob Meade, Leesburg FL [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27672|27672|2012-02-22 01:40:09|philip|free plans wanted|can anyone email me some free origami yacht plans philxxx@...| 27673|27672|2012-02-22 02:09:51|Brian Stannard|Re: free plans wanted|Why should they be free? On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 10:40 PM, philip wrote: > ** > > > can anyone email me some free origami yacht plans philxxx@... > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27674|27672|2012-02-22 07:20:15|John Riehl|Re: free plans wanted|I'm holding out for free hull plate. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 22, 2012, at 2:09 AM, Brian Stannard wrote: > Why should they be free? > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 10:40 PM, philip wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> can anyone email me some free origami yacht plans philxxx@... >> >> >> > > > > -- > Cheers > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27675|26545|2012-02-22 13:02:52|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Inverters have Power Factor correction modules, which allow to use 90-95% of input power from power source. Transformer welders use only 50-60% of input power. I was surprised, but new inverters might have Open Circuit voltage LESS than 12V when there is no welding current. There is a circuit (VRD - Voltage Reduction Device)) which lover it as a safety precaution. So, Specs shows 2 voltages for Open Circuit Voltage. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I recently bought a cheap Chinese inverter welder and run it on single > phase 230 volt (I am in NZ). It welds much, much nicer than the cheap > chinese transformer welder I have been using previously on the same > power source. The inverter welder's arc voltage is higher (especially > when running on a long extension cord) so it is much easier to strike an > arc and the weld is much smoother. | 27676|27672|2012-02-22 13:14:04|Brian Stannard|Re: free plans wanted|Good luck. I don't know of a designer giving plans away. Pretty sure Brent isn't a public service. On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:20 AM, John Riehl wrote: > ** > > > I'm holding out for free hull plate. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 22, 2012, at 2:09 AM, Brian Stannard > wrote: > > > Why should they be free? > > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 10:40 PM, philip wrote: > > > >> ** > >> > >> > >> can anyone email me some free origami yacht plans philxxx@... > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Cheers > > Brian > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27677|27672|2012-02-22 14:22:55|wild_explorer|Re: free plans wanted|In file section and reading messages of this group, you might find more information that some designers give you in paid "study plans". It is Free.... For origami boat... Not yacht... ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > can anyone email me some free origami yacht plans philxxx@... > | 27678|27672|2012-02-22 14:24:25|william munger|Re: free plans wanted|My guess is this is someone fishing for email addresses or something. William > In file section and reading messages of this group, you might find > more information that some designers give you in paid "study plans". > It is Free.... For origami boat... Not yacht... ;) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "philip" wrote: > > > > can anyone email me some free origami yacht plans philxxx@... > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27679|26545|2012-02-22 14:35:31|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Correction: Percentage is given for usable transfer of input power to output power. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Inverters have Power Factor correction modules, which allow to use 90-95% of input power from power source. Transformer welders use only 50-60% of input power. > | 27680|26545|2012-02-22 15:18:31|Matt Malone|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I am gaining so much from the welding course Wild is taking.... (smile) Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:35:28 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) Correction: Percentage is given for usable transfer of input power to output power. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Inverters have Power Factor correction modules, which allow to use 90-95% of input power from power source. Transformer welders use only 50-60% of input power. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27681|26545|2012-02-22 15:51:05|Norm Moore|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|True, he deserves our thanks. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 22, 2012 12:18:30 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) I am gaining so much from the welding course Wild is taking.... (smile) Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:35:28 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) Correction: Percentage is given for usable transfer of input power to output power. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Inverters have Power Factor correction modules, which allow to use 90-95% of >input power from power source. Transformer welders use only 50-60% of input >power. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27682|26545|2012-02-22 20:17:21|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Inverter welders don’t have problems with 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz. The first step in an inverter is turning the AC into DC using Rectifiers, then back into AC at 20,000 Hz or more, through a very tiny transformer, then back into DC! Gary H. Lucas From: wild_explorer Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 2:34 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) Darren, I tried to find an information about the differences for power 220VAC/50HZ (European)and 230VAC/60Hz (USA). It looks like it is unsafe (dangerous?) to use the equipment on different sources if it is not designed to use it on both type of AC without modification. It has different wiring. There is no problem to use it on designed AC. As I see, it might be more economical to buy welder just for a job/building a boat (as Gary recommended), sell it later and buy some welder which capable of running on any (worldwide) voltage. Hopefully, inverter type welders will go down in price. Better to watch the price - it went up last couples of weeks for some new equipment ;( Thanks to ALL again for your ideas! --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > The 220V isn't really a problem most places in > North America. Almost all houses are serviced by > 220V, using just one of the hot wires and a > neutral to provide 110V. If you want a 220V > outlet, just use the two hot wires. This is how > the stove and dryer outlets are > wired. Installing a 220V outlet is an afternoon > of work, so unless it is for a small project it > doesn't make sense to run on 110V. Even if you > buy a 220V only machine you can always run a cord > to the nearest stove or dryer outlet if you are > doing work away from your normal 220V outlet. > > Darren Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27683|26545|2012-02-23 07:37:26|jhess314|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I hope this isn't too geeky a question, but why all the conversions of AD->DC->AC->DC? John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Inverter welders don’t have problems with 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz. The first step in an inverter is turning the AC into DC using Rectifiers, then back into AC at 20,000 Hz or more, through a very tiny transformer, then back into DC! > > Gary H. Lucas > | 27684|26545|2012-02-23 07:54:33|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|John Not a bad question at all. I was wondering the same thing. I think it is the convesion from DC to AC where the change in the Hz is made. I could be wrong though? James --- On Thu, 2/23/12, jhess314 wrote:   I hope this isn't too geeky a question, but why all the conversions of AD->DC->AC->DC? John Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (172) Recent Activity: New Members 4 Visit Your Group To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27685|26545|2012-02-23 09:13:59|Matt Malone|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|The first AC is at 50/60 Hz, the second AC is at 20K Hz. When you boost the frequency on an inverter, the coil / inductor you are using can be a smaller inductance, which for a given average output current means a physically smaller device with less copper in it. Remembering that the inductor is pulsed, its peak instantaneous current is always higher than the average current. For a welder, the currents are very large, considering it is a unit you want to be pretty inexpensive. Also, the diameter of the wire needed to carry the current, which has to be slightly over-sized because the wires are packed in a coil where each wire has a harder time getting rid of any resistive heat they do produce, really favours a coil with fewer turns. Fewer turns is less inductance. Less inductance means one has to pulse it at a higher frequency. It is all connected to making it inexpensive and not catch fire. There must also be some reason connected to the power factor of the unit. A unit with a better power factor will be drawing more real power from the grid for a given input current. Assuming losses in the inverter are constant as the power factor is improved, this means, there is more power available at the output, therefore, more useful output current for a given input current. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: j.hess@... Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:37:24 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) I hope this isn't too geeky a question, but why all the conversions of AD->DC->AC->DC? John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Inverter welders don���t have problems with 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz. The first step in an inverter is turning the AC into DC using Rectifiers, then back into AC at 20,000 Hz or more, through a very tiny transformer, then back into DC! > > Gary H. Lucas > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27686|4244|2012-02-23 10:57:18|GP|Dry Exhaust|I am putting in dry exhaust on a 4 cyl 54 hp LE 1 Isuzu. The exhaust pipe will be bound with insulating material (large roll, white cloth like material). It will be about 2 to 3 inches from the bottom and side of my diesel tank (painted mild steel). I have been told that diesel has a high tolerance for indirect heat but I thought I would seek out opinion here for this installation. (Please see comment below) thanks... Gary "ABYC P-1 requires that the insulated surface temperature of a dry exhaust be limited to a maximum 200 °F (93 °C), which is well below diesel fuel's Autoignition temperature ± 410 °F (210 °C)." __________________| 27687|26545|2012-02-23 12:37:21|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|You are welcome! I glad you like this practical discussion. It would not be possible without others members of the group willing to share their knowledge and ideas. Thanks to ALL. Matt, you were able to explain basic operation of inverter to general public without going into much technical details. I will try too... About Power Factor Correction unit... ;) Inverter takes Low voltage, Low frequency, High amperage input AC -> convert it to DC -> convert it to High voltage, High frequency, Low amperage AC -> feed it to Power Factor Correction unit. The main idea of Inverter's Power Factor Correction unit is to keep the relation of amperage and voltage phases of High Frequency AC at Max power output for reactive load (which welding equipment is). It is much harder to do effective power correction for regular AC (50/60Hz). But there is a flip side of the coin as well. Inverter is a complex device, but has few components. If it fails, it is almost impractical to fix it. 200A IGBT alone cost about ~$300, same for control unit ;( Old style (transformer) welders are heavy, not efficient, but... It is bulletproof ;) On other hand it waste too much power, which makes it undesirable for running on residential 230Vac/60Hz. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I am gaining so much from the welding course Wild is taking.... (smile) > | 27688|4244|2012-02-23 13:07:47|Matt Malone|Re: Dry Exhaust|It relies greatly on ventilation of the space. A little ventilation will do a lot to lower the temperature of the outside of the pipe. Other effects are other sources of heat in the area, like the engine block and coolant lines. Finally, the ability of the envelope space to lose heat -- here is one place where an uninsulated section of underwater hull is better. The ABYC standard, if I were to compare it to residential furnace chimney flue clearances, seems to provide for less safety at your proposed 2-3". Lots of things in boats are less safe than in houses, however, if one can make it as safe as a house that is better. Propane and Natural Gas codes: CSA B149 Fuel Oil code: CSA B139 Solid Fuel Burning code: CSA B365 All these talk about the installation of different types of flues and the clearance to combustibles. For instance, a straight black stove pipe, single layer steel, I believe the minimum clearance to combustibles is 18 inches. One might compare that to an un-insulated exhaust pipe, which of course you would never do. Clearly, you are looking at an insulated pipe so, you would have to look at the different insulated manufactured flues and see what one is most like what you are going to construct. I find it hard to believe you will find comparable numbers there that are less than 6 inches. Also, these are not engineering books, they do not account for the reflective insulating properties of intermediate flashings, so placing a thermally isolated flashing (sheet of metal) say half way between the pipe and the tank would not be covered there. If I were crammed for space, I would put as many measures in place as possible to keep my diesel tank as cool as I possibly could, to be better than the ABYC. Also, be careful of exhaust pipe welds, joins and possible degradation in the area of the tank, failure of any of these could greatly change the amount of heat the tank sees. Also, it is not the autoignition temperature which is important, it is the flame/flash point. If one is producing fumes from heated diesel it can still flash like gasoline. Heated diesel and a spark can create a fire. The flash point of diesel is less than 200F. So I would take extra care to make sure no diesel could ever get on the even insulated pipe, nor the pipe could make the tank warmer than 200F. I would also, to the extent that is possible, remove any possible source of a spark from the compartment where the exhaust pipe runs. One has only one exhaust pipe. I feel it is worth extra thought. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: aguysailing@... Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:57:16 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust I am putting in dry exhaust on a 4 cyl 54 hp LE 1 Isuzu. The exhaust pipe will be bound with insulating material (large roll, white cloth like material). It will be about 2 to 3 inches from the bottom and side of my diesel tank (painted mild steel). I have been told that diesel has a high tolerance for indirect heat but I thought I would seek out opinion here for this installation. (Please see comment below) thanks... Gary "ABYC P-1 requires that the insulated surface temperature of a dry exhaust be limited to a maximum 200 �F (93 �C), which is well below diesel fuel's Autoignition temperature � 410 �F (210 �C)." __________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27689|4244|2012-02-23 16:14:08|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust|Matt made some good points. I would also consider that short of causing a fire, you really want to keep heat away from the diesel tank. The more you heat up the fuel tank, the more air it is going to draw back into it as it cools, the water in that air will condense and headaches will ensue as microorganisms grow in the water laden fuel and eventually clog fuel filters. Darren At 10:07 AM 23/02/2012, you wrote: >It relies greatly on ventilation of the >space. A little ventilation will do a lot to >lower the temperature of the outside of the >pipe. Other effects are other sources of heat >in the area, like the engine block and coolant >lines. Finally, the ability of the envelope >space to lose heat -- here is one place where an >uninsulated section of underwater hull is >better. The ABYC standard, if I were to >compare it to residential furnace chimney flue >clearances, seems to provide for less safety at >your proposed 2-3". Lots of things in boats are >less safe than in houses, however, if one can >make it as safe as a house that is better. > >Propane and Natural Gas codes: CSA B149 >Fuel Oil code: CSA B139 >Solid Fuel Burning code: CSA B365 > >All these talk about the installation of >different types of flues and the clearance to >combustibles. For instance, a straight black >stove pipe, single layer steel, I believe the >minimum clearance to combustibles is 18 >inches. One might compare that to an >un-insulated exhaust pipe, which of course you >would never do. Clearly, you are looking at an >insulated pipe so, you would have to look at the >different insulated manufactured flues and see >what one is most like what you are going to >construct. I find it hard to believe you will >find comparable numbers there that are less than >6 inches. Also, these are not engineering >books, they do not account for the reflective >insulating properties of intermediate flashings, >so placing a thermally isolated flashing (sheet >of metal) say half way between the pipe and the >tank would not be covered there. If I were >crammed for space, I would put as many measures >in place as possible to keep my diesel tank as >cool as I possibly could, to be better than the >ABYC. Also, be careful of exhaust pipe welds, >joins and possible degradation in the area of >the tank, failure of any of these could greatly >change the amount of heat the tank sees. > >Also, it is not the autoignition temperature >which is important, it is the flame/flash >point. If one is producing fumes from heated >diesel it can still flash like >gasoline. Heated diesel and a spark can create >a fire. The flash point of diesel is less than >200F. So I would take extra care to make sure >no diesel could ever get on the even insulated >pipe, nor the pipe could make the tank warmer >than 200F. I would also, to the extent that is >possible, remove any possible source of a spark >from the compartment where the exhaust pipe runs. > >One has only one exhaust pipe. I feel it is worth extra thought. > >Matt > > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >From: aguysailing@... >Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:57:16 +0000 >Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am putting in dry exhaust on a 4 cyl 54 > hp LE 1 Isuzu. The exhaust pipe will be bound > with insulating material (large roll, white > cloth like material). It will be about 2 to 3 > inches from the bottom and side of my diesel > tank (painted mild steel). I have been told > that diesel has a high tolerance for indirect > heat but I thought I would seek out opinion > here for this installation. (Please see comment below) > > > >thanks... Gary > > > >"ABYC P-1 requires that the insulated surface >temperature of a dry exhaust be limited to a >maximum 200 °F (93 °C), which is well below >diesel fuel's Autoignition temperature ± 410 °F (210 °C)." > >__________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------------------ > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27690|4244|2012-02-23 16:37:37|Paul Thompson|Re: Dry Exhaust|Gary, The fibre glass exhaust header lagging tape is pretty good. with a 3M exhuast run (11/2 in sch 40 pipe 20kw engine) After an hours running I can still put my hand on the exhaust about 800mm from the header. I used three layers of tape. Regards, Paul Thompson. On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Darren Bos wrote: > Matt made some good points.  I would also > consider that short of causing a fire, you really > want to keep heat away from the diesel tank.  The > more you heat up the fuel tank, the more air it > is going to draw back into it as it cools, the > water in that air will condense and headaches > will ensue as microorganisms grow in the water > laden fuel and eventually clog fuel filters. > > > Darren > > > At 10:07 AM 23/02/2012, you wrote: > > >>It relies greatly on ventilation of the >>space.  A little ventilation will do a lot to >>lower the temperature of the outside of the >>pipe.   Other effects are other sources of heat >>in the area, like the engine block and coolant >>lines.  Finally, the ability of the envelope >>space to lose heat -- here is one place where an >>uninsulated section of underwater hull is >>better.   The ABYC standard, if I were to >>compare it to residential furnace chimney flue >>clearances, seems to provide for less safety at >>your proposed 2-3".  Lots of things in boats are >>less safe than in houses, however, if one can >>make it as safe as a house that is better. >> >>Propane and Natural Gas codes: CSA B149 >>Fuel Oil code: CSA B139 >>Solid Fuel Burning code: CSA B365 >> >>All these talk about the installation of >>different types of flues and the clearance to >>combustibles.   For instance, a straight black >>stove pipe, single layer steel, I believe the >>minimum clearance to combustibles is 18 >>inches.    One might compare that to an >>un-insulated exhaust pipe, which of course you >>would never do.   Clearly, you are looking at an >>insulated pipe so, you would have to look at the >>different insulated manufactured flues and see >>what one is most like what you are going to >>construct.   I find it hard to believe you will >>find comparable numbers there that are less than >>6 inches.  Also, these are not engineering >>books, they do not account for the reflective >>insulating properties of intermediate flashings, >>so placing a thermally isolated flashing (sheet >>of metal) say half way between the pipe and the >>tank would not be covered there.   If I were >>crammed for space, I would put as many measures >>in place as possible to keep my diesel tank as >>cool as I possibly could, to be better than the >>ABYC.   Also, be careful of exhaust pipe welds, >>joins and possible degradation in the area of >>the tank, failure of any of these could greatly >>change the amount of heat the tank sees. >> >>Also, it is not the autoignition temperature >>which is important, it is the flame/flash >>point.  If one is producing fumes from heated >>diesel it can still flash like >>gasoline.   Heated diesel and a spark can create >>a fire.  The flash point of diesel is less than >>200F.    So I would take extra care to make sure >>no diesel could ever get on the even insulated >>pipe, nor the pipe could make the tank warmer >>than 200F.   I would also, to the extent that is >>possible, remove any possible source of a spark >>from the compartment where the exhaust pipe runs. >> >>One has only one exhaust pipe.  I feel it is worth extra thought. >> >>Matt >> >> >>To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>From: aguysailing@... >>Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:57:16 +0000 >>Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>       I am putting in dry exhaust on a 4 cyl 54 >> hp LE 1 Isuzu. The exhaust pipe will be bound >> with insulating material (large roll, white >> cloth like material). It will be about 2 to 3 >> inches from the bottom and side of my diesel >> tank (painted mild steel). I have been told >> that diesel has a high tolerance for indirect >> heat but I thought I would seek out opinion >> here for this installation. (Please see comment below) >> >> >> >>thanks... Gary >> >> >> >>"ABYC P-1 requires that the insulated surface >>temperature of a dry exhaust be limited to a >>maximum 200 °F (93 °C), which is well below >>diesel fuel's Autoignition temperature ± 410 °F (210 °C)." >> >>__________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >>------------------------------------ >> >>To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 27691|27691|2012-02-23 19:36:27|Kim|Some more tank-top questions.|Hello Brent and everyone ... Because I didn't want to have any built-in tanks in my boat, last August I posted a message asking how structurally important the tank top was (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/26469), . Brent, in his posts in reply, detailed what had to be done to maintain the strength of the twin keels if the tank top between the keels was left out (eg - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/26475). I've also carefully watched (many, many times!) the "Internal Keel Webs Installation" chapter that's towards the end of Alex's 2nd video DVD (1:12:56 into DVD #2). This segment very clearly describes how the tank top is an integral part of the twin keels structure. I'm still in two minds about having built-in tanks in my boat. I still haven't completely decided wether to fit the tank top between the keels or not. But I've got to decide very soon - the keels are in, and fitting the transverse keel webs is the next step. Now, the two questions I'm about to ask here will probably clearly show that I'm definitely not an engineer! :-) But I'm baffled by a couple of engineering aspects of the strengthening webs for the twin keels, and I would be most grateful if someone would explain the following: 1) Without the tank top in place, I was going to run the reinforcing web angle transversely from the chine, over the top of the keels, and down to the boats centerline, where it would meet the transverse reinforcing web angle from the other side. As well, a horizontal length of angle would run horizontally across the hull from web to web (just below the wheelhouse sole), and the triangle thus formed would also be filled with sheet steel welded to the angle, thus making a large, very strong floor. There would be 3 or 4 of these structures passing transversly over the keels. Now, I would have assumed that such an arrangement would provide far stronger support for the twin keels compared to simply terminating the transverse web angle on the tank top (as detailed in the above chapter in Alex's video). But my assumption is not correct - apparently installing the keel webs as it's done in Alex's video (1:12:56 into DVD #2) is far stronger. But why is this so? Does the tank top, together with the hull sides below it, form some sort of "box girder" that massively increases the strength of the hull in that area? Or is there some other reason? 2) In the above chapter in Alex's video, the transverse reinforcing web angle does not actually terminate on the tank top. It seems they don't touch the tank top at all! Instead, a small steel tab is welded in a vertical orientation on the tank-top/hull junction, and the transverse web angle is then welded to those tabs. Why is it done that way? Wouldn't it be better/stronger to run the angle all the way to the tank top, and weld it to the tank top itself? Sorry for all the questions! But I would very greatly appreciate a technical explanation for these issues. Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________| 27692|26545|2012-02-23 20:35:43|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|To weld you need high current at low voltage. With AC you do that with a transformer. At 50 to 60 Hz the transformer needs to be very large, with many turns of large wire, say about a 1 foot cube of nearly solid metal, and very heavy. At 20Khz and above the transformer needs only a few turns of wire and and you can hold it in your fist! It is also way more efficient, less losses mean higher power from smaller power sources. To get smooth DC from AC you have to have filter caps. At 50 to 60 Hz these are huge, and expensive, and you still have a lot of ripple in the DC. At 20Khz the filter caps are tiny, cheap, and the remaining ripple is very small. So the arc is very smooth and well controlled. Once you start controlling the current with electronics at high frequencies you get all kinds of other potential benefits. You can pulse the arc, reduce voltage while not welding, jump the voltage way up for a hot start, have constant current with variable voltage, or constant voltage with variable current, all from one machine, that is smaller and lighter. There really isn’t too much not to like, unless it stops working and can’t be easily serviced like the old machines. Gary H. Lucas From: jhess314 Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 7:37 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) I hope this isn't too geeky a question, but why all the conversions of AD->DC->AC->DC? John --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Inverter welders don’t have problems with 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz. The first step in an inverter is turning the AC into DC using Rectifiers, then back into AC at 20,000 Hz or more, through a very tiny transformer, then back into DC! > > Gary H. Lucas > Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27693|27691|2012-02-23 20:37:02|wild_explorer|Re: Some more tank-top questions.|You may find some information (AWS D3.5) here (page 31 - ????): http://www.scribd.com/doc/41566591/d3-5-Aws-Guide-for-Steel-Hull-Welding Another good source is ABS recommendations. I do not have a link right now. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hello Brent and everyone ... > > Because I didn't want to have any built-in tanks in my boat, last August I posted a message asking how structurally important the tank top was (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/26469), . Brent, in his posts in reply, detailed what had to be done to maintain the strength of the twin keels if the tank top between the keels was left out (eg - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/26475). > | 27694|4244|2012-02-24 06:23:59|Denis Buggy|Re: Dry Exhaust|MATT,S ADVICE IS EXCELLENT IN PARTICULAR THE DANGER OF AN EXAUST GAS LEAK WHICH WILL CHANGE THINGS FROM RAIDAINT HEAT TO A BLOWTORCH TYPE HEAT -- IN COMMERCIAL VEHICLES WE USE LAYERS OF STEEL WITH GAPS BETWEEN FOR HEAT TO DISSAPIATE SO THAT THE SKIN OF THE TANK NEVER RECIEVES A DIRECT HEAT SOURCE . REGARDS DENIS BUGGY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Malone" To: Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:07 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust It relies greatly on ventilation of the space. A little ventilation will do a lot to lower the temperature of the outside of the pipe. Other effects are other sources of heat in the area, like the engine block and coolant lines. Finally, the ability of the envelope space to lose heat -- here is one place where an uninsulated section of underwater hull is better. The ABYC standard, if I were to compare it to residential furnace chimney flue clearances, seems to provide for less safety at your proposed 2-3". Lots of things in boats are less safe than in houses, however, if one can make it as safe as a house that is better. Propane and Natural Gas codes: CSA B149 Fuel Oil code: CSA B139 Solid Fuel Burning code: CSA B365 All these talk about the installation of different types of flues and the clearance to combustibles. For instance, a straight black stove pipe, single layer steel, I believe the minimum clearance to combustibles is 18 inches. One might compare that to an un-insulated exhaust pipe, which of course you would never do. Clearly, you are looking at an insulated pipe so, you would have to look at the different insulated manufactured flues and see what one is most like what you are going to construct. I find it hard to believe you will find comparable numbers there that are less than 6 inches. Also, these are not engineering books, they do not account for the reflective insulating properties of intermediate flashings, so placing a thermally isolated flashing (sheet of metal) say half way between the pipe and the tank would not be covered there. If I were crammed for space, I would put as many measures in place as possible to keep my diesel tank as cool as I possibly could, to be better than the ABYC. Also, be careful of exhaust pipe welds, joins and possible degradation in the area of the tank, failure of any of these could greatly change the amount of heat the tank sees. Also, it is not the autoignition temperature which is important, it is the flame/flash point. If one is producing fumes from heated diesel it can still flash like gasoline. Heated diesel and a spark can create a fire. The flash point of diesel is less than 200F. So I would take extra care to make sure no diesel could ever get on the even insulated pipe, nor the pipe could make the tank warmer than 200F. I would also, to the extent that is possible, remove any possible source of a spark from the compartment where the exhaust pipe runs. One has only one exhaust pipe. I feel it is worth extra thought. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: aguysailing@... Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:57:16 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust I am putting in dry exhaust on a 4 cyl 54 hp LE 1 Isuzu. The exhaust pipe will be bound with insulating material (large roll, white cloth like material). It will be about 2 to 3 inches from the bottom and side of my diesel tank (painted mild steel). I have been told that diesel has a high tolerance for indirect heat but I thought I would seek out opinion here for this installation. (Please see comment below) thanks... Gary "ABYC P-1 requires that the insulated surface temperature of a dry exhaust be limited to a maximum 200 °F (93 °C), which is well below diesel fuel's Autoignition temperature ± 410 °F (210 °C)." __________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 27695|26545|2012-02-24 09:53:03|jhess314|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Thank you Gary, Matt and Wild. I now have a better understanding of the overall picture of how inverter welders work. Could you give me a little more detail how the inverter jumps up the frequency, and what the Power Factor is? Thanks, John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > To weld you need high current at low voltage. With AC you do that with a transformer. At 50 to 60 Hz the transformer needs to be very large, with many turns of large wire, say about a 1 foot cube of nearly solid metal, and very heavy. At 20Khz and above the transformer needs only a few turns of wire and and you can hold it in your fist! It is also way more efficient, less losses mean higher power from smaller power sources. To get smooth DC from AC you have to have filter caps. At 50 to 60 Hz these are huge, and expensive, and you still have a lot of ripple in the DC. At 20Khz the filter caps are tiny, cheap, and the remaining ripple is very small. So the arc is very smooth and well controlled. Once you start controlling the current with electronics at high frequencies you get all kinds of other potential benefits. You can pulse the arc, reduce voltage while not welding, jump the voltage way up for a hot start, have constant current with variable voltage, or constant voltage with variable current, all from one machine, that is smaller and lighter. > > There really isn’t too much not to like, unless it stops working and can’t be easily serviced like the old machines. > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: jhess314 > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 7:37 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) > > > I hope this isn't too geeky a question, but why all the conversions of AD->DC->AC->DC? > > John > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Inverter welders don’t have problems with 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz. The first step in an inverter is turning the AC into DC using Rectifiers, then back into AC at 20,000 Hz or more, through a very tiny transformer, then back into DC! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27696|26545|2012-02-24 12:02:34|Matt Malone|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Power factor can be thought of as the amount of overlap between the voltage and current waves. If the peak current is drawn at the same time as the peak voltage, then the maximum power is delivered for that level of current. P = V(rms) X A(rms). If the two waves are not synchronized then less power is delivered. Here is a simple example of how voltage and current may not be aligned. Think of a box with a big capacitor in it and hook this up to the AC voltage. The most current flows when the capacitor is charging the fastest. Capacitors charge the fastest when you change their voltage the fastest. On a sine-wave voltage wave, the greatest rate of increase of voltage occurs when the voltage is negative, and rising through zero and becoming positive. At peak voltage, when the voltage is reaching its maximum and going down, the voltage on the capacitor is not changing, so, it is requiring no current to charge or discharge. This is a page that contains some graphics, equations and explanations. http://www.play-hookey.com/ac_theory/ac_capacitors.html Capacitive loads have a very poor power factor. The fuse will be saying you are drawing maximum current on the circuit, but far less real power is actually being used. Inductive loads are the opposite phase, and can cancel capacitive effects and lead to a mixed load where the voltage and current align. Buzz box transformer welders, being nearly entirely inductive, have a poor power factor. Take a look at the fuse rating and output of a buzz box compared to an inverter welder. You will see a good inverter puts out more output current for the same input current rating. That is because, if it is designed well, it has a better power factor than a great big inductor/transformer. There are many ways to create a frequency from a DC source. Probably the easiest is to make an oscillator circuit that runs at low power and have it gate a transistor (FET) to pulse large currents. The first part of the circuit is not much different than a transistor transceiver radio that runs off batteries. Computer boards also produce high frequency clock signals from a DC source. If the point is converting power from one voltage/current to another voltage/current in a DC switching power supply, then a hard on-off waveform accomplishes that well. If the point is to produce an smooth amplified current signal to run high current things at that frequency, like huge loud speakers or the main driver in a radio station transmitter, then an inductor-capacitor or resonator network can be used to filter the signal. All of this is the bread and butter of an electrical engineer. A lot of math involved in understanding it better. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: j.hess@... Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:53:01 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) Thank you Gary, Matt and Wild. I now have a better understanding of the overall picture of how inverter welders work. Could you give me a little more detail how the inverter jumps up the frequency, and what the Power Factor is? Thanks, John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > To weld you need high current at low voltage. With AC you do that with a transformer. At 50 to 60 Hz the transformer needs to be very large, with many turns of large wire, say about a 1 foot cube of nearly solid metal, and very heavy. At 20Khz and above the transformer needs only a few turns of wire and and you can hold it in your fist! It is also way more efficient, less losses mean higher power from smaller power sources. To get smooth DC from AC you have to have filter caps. At 50 to 60 Hz these are huge, and expensive, and you still have a lot of ripple in the DC. At 20Khz the filter caps are tiny, cheap, and the remaining ripple is very small. So the arc is very smooth and well controlled. Once you start controlling the current with electronics at high frequencies you get all kinds of other potential benefits. You can pulse the arc, reduce voltage while not welding, jump the voltage way up for a hot start, have constant current with variable voltage, or constant voltage with variable current, all from one machine, that is smaller and lighter. > > There really isn���t too much not to like, unless it stops working and can���t be easily serviced like the old machines. > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: jhess314 > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 7:37 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) > > > I hope this isn't too geeky a question, but why all the conversions of AD->DC->AC->DC? > > John > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Inverter welders don������t have problems with 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz. The first step in an inverter is turning the AC into DC using Rectifiers, then back into AC at 20,000 Hz or more, through a very tiny transformer, then back into DC! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27697|27691|2012-02-24 12:17:45|haidan|Re: Some more tank-top questions.|Well I'm not sure which way is the strongest way to go, my guess would be tying everything together, angle irons to the keel, the tank top and ideally any frames you've incorporated into the tank as directly possible to give best cross sectional strength. The angle iron, when I got the boat (the one in the video) were running through the top of the keels, the top section protrudes into the boat about 4 inches or so. The tank top, the inside edge of the keel and the angle iron come together at the same point. The angel meets the tank top with the vertical section of the angle iron, then there is a gusset like piece welded from the top of the angle to the top of the tank. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hello Brent and everyone ... > > Because I didn't want to have any built-in tanks in my boat, last August I posted a message asking how structurally important the tank top was (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/26469), . Brent, in his posts in reply, detailed what had to be done to maintain the strength of the twin keels if the tank top between the keels was left out (eg - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/26475). > > I've also carefully watched (many, many times!) the "Internal Keel Webs Installation" chapter that's towards the end of Alex's 2nd video DVD (1:12:56 into DVD #2). This segment very clearly describes how the tank top is an integral part of the twin keels structure. > > I'm still in two minds about having built-in tanks in my boat. I still haven't completely decided wether to fit the tank top between the keels or not. But I've got to decide very soon - the keels are in, and fitting the transverse keel webs is the next step. > > Now, the two questions I'm about to ask here will probably clearly show that I'm definitely not an engineer! :-) But I'm baffled by a couple of engineering aspects of the strengthening webs for the twin keels, and I would be most grateful if someone would explain the following: > > 1) Without the tank top in place, I was going to run the reinforcing web angle transversely from the chine, over the top of the keels, and down to the boats centerline, where it would meet the transverse reinforcing web angle from the other side. As well, a horizontal length of angle would run horizontally across the hull from web to web (just below the wheelhouse sole), and the triangle thus formed would also be filled with sheet steel welded to the angle, thus making a large, very strong floor. There would be 3 or 4 of these structures passing transversly over the keels. Now, I would have assumed that such an arrangement would provide far stronger support for the twin keels compared to simply terminating the transverse web angle on the tank top (as detailed in the above chapter in Alex's video). But my assumption is not correct - apparently installing the keel webs as it's done in Alex's video (1:12:56 into DVD #2) is far stronger. But why is this so? Does the tank top, together with the hull sides below it, form some sort of "box girder" that massively increases the strength of the hull in that area? Or is there some other reason? > > 2) In the above chapter in Alex's video, the transverse reinforcing web angle does not actually terminate on the tank top. It seems they don't touch the tank top at all! Instead, a small steel tab is welded in a vertical orientation on the tank-top/hull junction, and the transverse web angle is then welded to those tabs. Why is it done that way? Wouldn't it be better/stronger to run the angle all the way to the tank top, and weld it to the tank top itself? > > Sorry for all the questions! But I would very greatly appreciate a technical explanation for these issues. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > ______________________________________________________________ > | 27698|26545|2012-02-24 12:19:30|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Matt Excellent "distillation" of a complex interaction between capacitors and inductors and the resulting "instantaneous" power. I welded my entire BS40 with a buzz-box. It took awhile to determine the best rod + power settings, but, once established, it served me well, for steel and stainless. I didn't attempt to measure the cost of power. That is getting to be a serious consideration, now. Good job!! Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: Matt Malone Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:02:32 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) Power factor can be thought of as the amount of overlap between the voltage and current waves. If the peak current is drawn at the same time as the peak voltage, then the maximum power is delivered for that level of current. P = V(rms) X A(rms). If the two waves are not synchronized then less power is delivered. Here is a simple example of how voltage and current may not be aligned. Think of a box with a big capacitor in it and hook this up to the AC voltage. The most current flows when the capacitor is charging the fastest. Capacitors charge the fastest when you change their voltage the fastest. On a sine-wave voltage wave, the greatest rate of increase of voltage occurs when the voltage is negative, and rising through zero and becoming positive. At peak voltage, when the voltage is reaching its maximum and going down, the voltage on the capacitor is not changing, so, it is requiring no current to charge or discharge. This is a page that contains some graphics, equations and explanations. http://www.play-hookey.com/ac_theory/ac_capacitors.html Capacitive loads have a very poor power factor. The fuse will be saying you are drawing maximum current on the circuit, but far less real power is actually being used. Inductive loads are the opposite phase, and can cancel capacitive effects and lead to a mixed load where the voltage and current align. Buzz box transformer welders, being nearly entirely inductive, have a poor power factor. Take a look at the fuse rating and output of a buzz box compared to an inverter welder. You will see a good inverter puts out more output current for the same input current rating. That is because, if it is designed well, it has a better power factor than a great big inductor/transformer. There are many ways to create a frequency from a DC source. Probably the easiest is to make an oscillator circuit that runs at low power and have it gate a transistor (FET) to pulse large currents. The first part of the circuit is not much different than a transistor transceiver radio that runs off batteries. Computer boards also produce high frequency clock signals from a DC source. If the point is converting power from one voltage/current to another voltage/current in a DC switching power supply, then a hard on-off waveform accomplishes that well. If the point is to produce an smooth amplified current signal to run high current things at that frequency, like huge loud speakers or the main driver in a radio station transmitter, then an inductor-capacitor or resonator network can be used to filter the signal. All of this is the bread and butter of an electrical engineer. A lot of math involved in understanding it better. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: j.hess@... Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:53:01 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) Thank you Gary, Matt and Wild. I now have a better understanding of the overall picture of how inverter welders work. Could you give me a little more detail how the inverter jumps up the frequency, and what the Power Factor is? Thanks, John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > To weld you need high current at low voltage. With AC you do that with a transformer. At 50 to 60 Hz the transformer needs to be very large, with many turns of large wire, say about a 1 foot cube of nearly solid metal, and very heavy. At 20Khz and above the transformer needs only a few turns of wire and and you can hold it in your fist! It is also way more efficient, less losses mean higher power from smaller power sources. To get smooth DC from AC you have to have filter caps. At 50 to 60 Hz these are huge, and expensive, and you still have a lot of ripple in the DC. At 20Khz the filter caps are tiny, cheap, and the remaining ripple is very small. So the arc is very smooth and well controlled. Once you start controlling the current with electronics at high frequencies you get all kinds of other potential benefits. You can pulse the arc, reduce voltage while not welding, jump the voltage way up for a hot start, have constant current with variable voltage, or constant voltage with variable current, all from one machine, that is smaller and lighter. > > There really isn’t too much not to like, unless it stops working and can’t be easily serviced like the old machines. > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: jhess314 > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 7:37 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) > > > I hope this isn't too geeky a question, but why all the conversions of AD->DC->AC->DC? > > John > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Inverter welders don’t have problems with 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz. The first step in an inverter is turning the AC into DC using Rectifiers, then back into AC at 20,000 Hz or more, through a very tiny transformer, then back into DC! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 27699|26545|2012-02-24 12:38:09|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|I tried couple more MIG-process (Gas shielded) 1. Pulsed Spray Transfer with 0.035" ER70S-6 wire and 90% Argon + 10% CO2 It designed for robotic applications. By hands it makes good welds.... Sometime.... ;). Everything should be setup perfectly + constant distance to work + constant travel speed. We had some problems with gas in the lines. Sometimes it would make nice weld, next time - terrible. Equipment is expensive. Conclusion: May be good for welding in the shop. Not worst of wasting time to learn for welding on a small boat. 2. FCAW-G (Flux core wire + shielding gas) with 0.045" E71T-1C-H8 and 100% CO2 Nice welds! Almost as good as with E7018 Electrode. Easy-y-y... Learned to weld with it from horizontal to vertical up in less than 2 hours ;)). Regular MIG welder. Need to clean flux. Sometimes Makes some kind of "warm's trail" in the weld (do not know why). Conclusion: Worth of learning. It gives MUCH better weld compare to wire without flux. Need to try FCAW-S (Flux Core without gas). P.S. MIG gun type and equipment makes a difference. I used fancy programmable Miller unit for a while - I do not like it. When I switched to "pre-programmed" unit (Miller XMT 350) - much better. MIG gun with "fixed head" performed much better than with "slide in" head. Remember about <30% duty cycle for most MIG guns!!! If it overheats, it starts making bad welds (inconsistent speed of wire, etc).| 27700|4244|2012-02-24 14:13:25|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Dry Exhaust|I have not been following this "exhaust(ing) discussion very closely, but, wrt; heat from engine exhaust system: I went to the commercial heating/refrigeration suppliers/ distributors and purchased the foil-jacketed fiberglass pipe insulation (2"IDx5"ODx4'). These come "split" open along the length. Spread the fiberglass "sleeve" open, along the length, slide it over the exhaust pipe, wrap it with fiberglass tape and foam right over it. No sign of accumulating heat with extended periods of engine operation. Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: Denis Buggy Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:24:05 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust MATT,S ADVICE IS EXCELLENT IN PARTICULAR THE DANGER OF AN EXAUST GAS LEAK WHICH WILL CHANGE THINGS FROM RAIDAINT HEAT TO A BLOWTORCH TYPE HEAT -- IN COMMERCIAL VEHICLES WE USE LAYERS OF STEEL WITH GAPS BETWEEN FOR HEAT TO DISSAPIATE SO THAT THE SKIN OF THE TANK NEVER RECIEVES A DIRECT HEAT SOURCE . REGARDS DENIS BUGGY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Malone" To: Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:07 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust It relies greatly on ventilation of the space. A little ventilation will do a lot to lower the temperature of the outside of the pipe. Other effects are other sources of heat in the area, like the engine block and coolant lines. Finally, the ability of the envelope space to lose heat -- here is one place where an uninsulated section of underwater hull is better. The ABYC standard, if I were to compare it to residential furnace chimney flue clearances, seems to provide for less safety at your proposed 2-3". Lots of things in boats are less safe than in houses, however, if one can make it as safe as a house that is better. Propane and Natural Gas codes: CSA B149 Fuel Oil code: CSA B139 Solid Fuel Burning code: CSA B365 All these talk about the installation of different types of flues and the clearance to combustibles. For instance, a straight black stove pipe, single layer steel, I believe the minimum clearance to combustibles is 18 inches. One might compare that to an un-insulated exhaust pipe, which of course you would never do. Clearly, you are looking at an insulated pipe so, you would have to look at the different insulated manufactured flues and see what one is most like what you are going to construct. I find it hard to believe you will find comparable numbers there that are less than 6 inches. Also, these are not engineering books, they do not account for the reflective insulating properties of intermediate flashings, so placing a thermally isolated flashing (sheet of metal) say half way between the pipe and the tank would not be covered there. If I were crammed for space, I would put as many measures in place as possible to keep my diesel tank as cool as I possibly could, to be better than the ABYC. Also, be careful of exhaust pipe welds, joins and possible degradation in the area of the tank, failure of any of these could greatly change the amount of heat the tank sees. Also, it is not the autoignition temperature which is important, it is the flame/flash point. If one is producing fumes from heated diesel it can still flash like gasoline. Heated diesel and a spark can create a fire. The flash point of diesel is less than 200F. So I would take extra care to make sure no diesel could ever get on the even insulated pipe, nor the pipe could make the tank warmer than 200F. I would also, to the extent that is possible, remove any possible source of a spark from the compartment where the exhaust pipe runs. One has only one exhaust pipe. I feel it is worth extra thought. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: aguysailing@... Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:57:16 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust I am putting in dry exhaust on a 4 cyl 54 hp LE 1 Isuzu. The exhaust pipe will be bound with insulating material (large roll, white cloth like material). It will be about 2 to 3 inches from the bottom and side of my diesel tank (painted mild steel). I have been told that diesel has a high tolerance for indirect heat but I thought I would seek out opinion here for this installation. (Please see comment below) thanks... Gary "ABYC P-1 requires that the insulated surface temperature of a dry exhaust be limited to a maximum 200 �F (93 �C), which is well below diesel fuel's Autoignition temperature � 410 �F (210 �C)." __________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27701|4244|2012-02-24 14:24:44|scott|Re: Dry Exhaust|I saw a product the other day that would make this a non issue. They had a canister that held silica for absorbing moisture inline in the vent line for the fuel tank. they wanted about 100 bucks for it but you could build one out of a piece of pvc pipe with some fort of filter to keep the silica in it. They were using the indicating silica that changes color as it is gets saturated. You can then heat it up in your oven for half an hour or so to dry it back out and re-use it. You could find the silica and make a canister to run the vent line through fairly cheaply yourself. Their version of it looked to be about 8 inches long or so and 2 or three inches in diameter and they were saying that it should last about a year. Their version used a clear cylinder that you could see through to see what color the silica is so you can tell when to change it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Matt made some good points. I would also > consider that short of causing a fire, you really > want to keep heat away from the diesel tank. The > more you heat up the fuel tank, the more air it > is going to draw back into it as it cools, the > water in that air will condense and headaches > will ensue as microorganisms grow in the water > laden fuel and eventually clog fuel filters. > > > Darren > | 27702|26545|2012-02-24 14:42:48|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Below is respond from Lincoln Electric for welding 1/8"-1/2" plate with SMAW (E6011, E7018, E7014 electrodes) and FCAW-S. Quote: "For welding Innershield wires you need a constant voltage (CV) power source. For stick you need a constant current power (CC) source. Any machine that is both CV and CC is going to be expensive and not very portable. For the work you have described so far I would recommend either a AC/DC 225/125 stick welder, which run on 230 single phase and weigh about 125 pounds so they are somewhat portable, or one of our Invertec series welders such as the V155-S." End_of_Quote New Equipment cost (MSRP as today) from Lincoln's website: AC/DC 225/125 Stick Welder - $714 Invertec V155-S - $983 Welder sold by Lincoln's Sub-unit (price from Internet): Century (Lincoln) Inverter Arc 230 Stick Welder (K2790-1) - < $300-400 Important!!! Look for NEMA protection rating of the unit: IP21S - indoor IP23S - outdoor --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell@... wrote: > > I welded my entire BS40 with a buzz-box. It took awhile to determine the best rod + power settings, but, once established, it served me well, for steel and stainless. I didn't attempt to measure the cost of power. That is getting to be a serious consideration, now. | 27703|26545|2012-02-24 15:21:39|Paul Wilson|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Wild, you are slowly coming around to what Brent says in his book :). If I was building again, I would buy an inverter welder capable of minimum 200 amps or more. Option is buy the extras and also go TIG if desired for detail work with the SS. This is not necessary though if you are happy with SS rods. TIG takes a lot of practice and a good hand. The inverter welder is small enough and light enough I could take it on board when I go sailing. If I was assured of having a good 220 volt AC power source, any old 220 amp transformer welder would do if I was on a budget. Many boats have been built this way. If you pay attention to the duty cycles, you shouldn't burn out the welder building one boat, even if it is a cheap one. Mount the welder in your shed or shop out of the rain and have a good quality 50 foot stinger lead so you can quickly go to wherever you are welding and not have to move the welder all the time. Set up time every day is minimal. When you are finished welding, cut up the 50 foot welding cable and use it for battery cables in the boat. I see no advantage to go with MIG unless you want to spend a lot of money on consumables. Moving the MIG continually near to your work would be a real pain and slow you down. In my mind MIG advantage is for high speed production work and going too much and too fast on a boat will totally screw it up. Welding a boat is best done slow and steady without generating too much heat any any one spot. Lincoln welders are supposed to be very good quality. They were made in USA but have now expanded worldwide. I am not sure if the quality has suffered but they are still consistently rated one of the best companies to work for since they pay their employees well and have profit sharing. Because of this they are expensive though. If you are not a commercial welder, I am not sure they are worth the extra price unless you could resell it and recover some of the cost. Cheers, Paul ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email -->| 27704|4244|2012-02-24 15:41:25|Darren Bos|Re: Dry Exhaust|It sounds like a good idea Scott, although you would still want to limit how much the tank breaths, or you will be replacing the silica constantly (these kinds of desiccants really can't absorb very much water). I've used the color changing desiccant in the lab a fair bit. It can be recharged by drying in the oven, but each cycle of drying seems to shorten its useful life. Also, keep in mind the desiccant is going to be in the diesel vent line, so it is also going to be absorbing diesel vapors as well. I'm not sure I'd want to be drying that in a marine oven. At the least, it could leave the following batches of bread smelling and tasting funky. At worst, if you overfilled your tank and there was enough diesel in the desiccant to reach the explosive vapor limit inside the oven......... I think it's a good idea, you should be able to find desiccant relatively cheaply and throw it away, or if you're somewhere sunny stick the used dessicant on a dark tray in the sun for a day. If you build the cannister yourself it is a pretty low cost piece of insurance. Darren At 11:24 AM 24/02/2012, you wrote: > > >I saw a product the other day that would make >this a non issue. They had a canister that held >silica for absorbing moisture inline in the vent >line for the fuel tank. they wanted about 100 >bucks for it but you could build one out of a >piece of pvc pipe with some fort of filter to >keep the silica in it. They were using the >indicating silica that changes color as it is >gets saturated. You can then heat it up in your >oven for half an hour or so to dry it back out and re-use it. > >You could find the silica and make a canister to >run the vent line through fairly cheaply yourself. > >Their version of it looked to be about 8 inches >long or so and 2 or three inches in diameter and >they were saying that it should last about a >year. Their version used a clear cylinder that >you could see through to see what color the >silica is so you can tell when to change it. > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Matt made some good points. I would also > > consider that short of causing a fire, you really > > want to keep heat away from the diesel tank. The > > more you heat up the fuel tank, the more air it > > is going to draw back into it as it cools, the > > water in that air will condense and headaches > > will ensue as microorganisms grow in the water > > laden fuel and eventually clog fuel filters. > > > > > > Darren > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27705|26545|2012-02-24 16:59:42|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Wild, you are slowly coming around to what Brent says in his book :). I had to try it by myself to come to the same conclusion ;)) > > If I was building again, I would buy an inverter welder capable of > minimum 200 amps or more. Option is buy the extras and also go TIG if > desired for detail work with the SS. This is not necessary though if > you are happy with SS rods. TIG takes a lot of practice and a good > hand. The inverter welder is small enough and light enough I could take > it on board when I go sailing. I use some caution looking at some "No-name" inverter welders. It is not a problem to make hardware these days. The main problem is reliability and proper output for the process. Excessive research is done for SMAW (Stick) and TIG welding. Most inverters will do stick welding just fine. TIG - may be. When it comes to MIG... that where the problems start. > > When you are finished welding, cut up the 50 foot welding cable and use > it for battery cables in the boat. Good idea! Welding cables is probably what is worth buying at used equipment auction. > I see no advantage to go with MIG unless you want to spend a lot of > money on consumables. Moving the MIG continually near to your work > would be a real pain and slow you down. In my mind MIG advantage is for > high speed production work and going too much and too fast on a boat > will totally screw it up. Welding a boat is best done slow and steady > without generating too much heat any any one spot. It is not about consumables (even if FCAW-S wire cost more than electrode per pound of weight). I agree you need to weld with caution on a boat (regardless of Stick or MIG process). There are several more problems for using MIG: - I talked to several people who took Stick welding class BEFORE MIG-class. They ALL say that they have problems with quality of MIG welding. Sometimes it welds good, next moment - not good. It just a process you cannot rely on. - You cannot use electrodes for tacking and MIG for main/final weld. It is NOT allowed by welding code. You have to tack weld and weld main pass with the same wire. - Possible problem for Origami construction. You tack weld everything BEFORE final weld is made. Because you have to tack weld with the same wire for MIG, tack weld is TOO STRONG. When you pull hull together, stress on some areas of the plate may be too high. Instead of breaking tack weld it will brake a peace of plate. It is better to grind tack weld than repair the plate. There is no such problem using E6011 and E7018. Tack weld with E6011, and if tack weld brakes, grind it off and make final weld with E7018.| 27706|26545|2012-02-24 17:44:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|On 25/02/2012 10:59 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > - I talked to several people who took Stick welding class BEFORE > MIG-class. They ALL say that they have problems with quality of MIG > welding. Sometimes it welds good, next moment - not good. It just a > process you cannot rely on. > > - You cannot use electrodes for tacking and MIG for main/final weld. > It is NOT allowed by welding code. You have to tack weld and weld main > pass with the same wire. > > - Possible problem for Origami construction. You tack weld everything > BEFORE final weld is made. Because you have to tack weld with the same > wire for MIG, tack weld is TOO STRONG. When you pull hull together, > stress on some areas of the plate may be too high. Instead of breaking > tack weld it will brake a peace of plate. It is better to grind tack > weld than repair the plate. There is no such problem using E6011 and > E7018. Tack weld with E6011, and if tack weld brakes, grind it off and > make final weld with E7018. I am not 100% sure on what you are saying here but it sounds like further arguments against using MIG for a boat. I did not know you are not allowed to use MIG over stick and I am not sure why this would be a problem....I am no professional but just a hack. I built using Brent's recommended 6011 and 7024. Worked well for me. Cheers, Paul| 27707|26545|2012-02-24 18:24:59|Paul Thompson|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|> - You cannot use electrodes for tacking and MIG for main/final weld. It is NOT allowed by welding code. You have to tack weld and weld main pass with the same wire. First time I've heard of that. I tack welded my boat with stick and sewed it up with Mig. Have had the boat for 23 years now and never had a weld failure. -- Regards, Paul Thompson| 27708|26545|2012-02-24 19:05:18|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Clarification: The restriction is for FCAW-S process. Quote (from Lincoln Application Engineer's respond): 1. Generally speaking, if you are using FCAW you should use the same electrode for the entire joint, tacks and all. One exception is the use of Lincoln Fleetweld 35LS. It is an E6011 electrode designed specifically for tack welds under Innershield products. If using SMAW you have far more leeway. You can tack with E6010 or E6011 and use E7018 to finish the joint. You can also tack with a 70ksi electrode (E70 series) and finish out with another 70ksi electrode. End_of_quote. P.S. I need to check restrictions for GMAW. P.S.S. Even with electrodes, not all types/brands are pre-certified for boat building. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > - You cannot use electrodes for tacking and MIG for main/final weld. It is NOT allowed by welding code. You have to tack weld and weld main pass with the same wire. > > First time I've heard of that. I tack welded my boat with stick and > sewed it up with Mig. Have had the boat for 23 years now and never had > a weld failure. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 27709|26545|2012-02-24 19:15:56|Doug Jackson|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I read that one too, but there were a bunch of wire and stick combinations that were compatible. Just the same, I personally would not loose any sleep over it.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Paul Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)   > - You cannot use electrodes for tacking and MIG for main/final weld. It is NOT allowed by welding code. You have to tack weld and weld main pass with the same wire. First time I've heard of that. I tack welded my boat with stick and sewed it up with Mig. Have had the boat for 23 years now and never had a weld failure. -- Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27710|26545|2012-02-24 21:46:51|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|Some information I found looking for welding restrictions/practices. It is not to discourage someone to do something when you build YOUR boat, but possibly to comply with HIGH standards ;) Source: SFLC STANDARD SPECIFICATION 0740 3.4 Filler material restrictions. The Contractor shall be aware that low ductility shielded metal arc welding electrodes, including AWS classification E6010, E6012, E6013, E7014 and E7024, are not approved for joints in critical welds (see 1.3.5 (Critical welds)). 1.3.5 Critical welds. Critical welds include but are not limited to welds on vessel hull plate, tank tops, structural decks and bulkheads, structural framing, and weight handling equipment 3.6 Process restrictions. The Contractor shall not use gas metal-arc welding (GMAW) utilizing short circuiting arc transfer technique (the consumable electrode is deposited during repeated short circuits) for welds in ship structure above 0.25-inch material thickness, unless the process and application are specifically approved by the Contracting Officer. My Note: 3/16" plate = 0.19" 3.7 Surface preparation. Contractor shall clean to bare metal all surfaces out to one inch on both sides of the weld joint to remove all foreign materials, unless otherwise directed by the work item or appendix. Scale and metallic oxides shall be removed from surfaces on which weld metal is to be deposited. 3.14 Tack welds. The Contractor shall ensure that tack welds are of the same grade electrode as root and final pass. Tack welds shall not interfere with the smooth completion of the final weld, and do not need to be removed provided they are thoroughly cleaned before final welding and found free of defects. 3.16 Welding arc marks. The Contractor shall ensure that striking an arc on any principle hull or deck plate is prohibited unless the arc site is to be incorporated into a welded joint. Marks left by an accidental arc strike shall be ground smooth without reduction to surrounding plate thickness. A2.2.4 Welding filler materials. Filler materials shall meet the requirements of the applicable specification essential elements. See 3.4 (Filler material restrictions) for additional limitations on fillers in critical welds. B2.6.2 Process restrictions. GMAW utilizing short circuiting arc transfer technique (the consumable electrode is deposited during repeated short circuits) shall not be used for welds in surface ship structure, unless the process and application are specifically approved by NAVSEA and the Coast Guard Contracting Officer. P.S. Too many files... I need to do make "Notes to myself"... ;)| 27711|26545|2012-02-25 09:41:33|jhess314|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Thanks, Matt, for your detailed response. The picture is getting clearer. :) John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Power factor can be thought of as the amount of overlap between the voltage and current waves. If the peak current is drawn at the same time as the peak voltage, then the maximum power is delivered for that level of current. P = V(rms) X A(rms). If the two waves are not synchronized then less power is delivered. > > Here is a simple example of how voltage and current may not be aligned. Think of a box with a big capacitor in it and hook this up to the AC voltage. The most current flows when the capacitor is charging the fastest. Capacitors charge the fastest when you change their voltage the fastest. On a sine-wave voltage wave, the greatest rate of increase of voltage occurs when the voltage is negative, and rising through zero and becoming positive. At peak voltage, when the voltage is reaching its maximum and going down, the voltage on the capacitor is not changing, so, it is requiring no current to charge or discharge. > > This is a page that contains some graphics, equations and explanations. > > http://www.play-hookey.com/ac_theory/ac_capacitors.html > > Capacitive loads have a very poor power factor. The fuse will be saying you are drawing maximum current on the circuit, but far less real power is actually being used. Inductive loads are the opposite phase, and can cancel capacitive effects and lead to a mixed load where the voltage and current align. > > Buzz box transformer welders, being nearly entirely inductive, have a poor power factor. Take a look at the fuse rating and output of a buzz box compared to an inverter welder. You will see a good inverter puts out more output current for the same input current rating. That is because, if it is designed well, it has a better power factor than a great big inductor/transformer. > > There are many ways to create a frequency from a DC source. Probably the easiest is to make an oscillator circuit that runs at low power and have it gate a transistor (FET) to pulse large currents. The first part of the circuit is not much different than a transistor transceiver radio that runs off batteries. Computer boards also produce high frequency clock signals from a DC source. If the point is converting power from one voltage/current to another voltage/current in a DC switching power supply, then a hard on-off waveform accomplishes that well. If the point is to produce an smooth amplified current signal to run high current things at that frequency, like huge loud speakers or the main driver in a radio station transmitter, then an inductor-capacitor or resonator network can be used to filter the signal. All of this is the bread and butter of an electrical engineer. A lot of math involved in understanding it better. > > Matt > | 27712|26545|2012-02-25 15:06:13|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables estimate)|It is time to estimate welding consumables for boat's project. This time we will use different approach (how it suppose to be in a first place) – by estimating amount of welding metal needed. We already have estimated length of the welds based on 3D model. So, choosing proper welding leg size we can calculate volume and weight of the welding metal. I will skip detailed calculation (you may find it in Group's File Section). 1. Assembly, ~ Length of the weld (m), Leg size (inch): Hull, transom 3/16" = ~ 120 m, Leg 3/16" Deck, Cabin, PilotHouse, FootWell 1/8" = ~ 120 m, Leg 1/8" Tween Keels (both) 1/4", 1/2" = ~ 80 m, Leg 1/4", 1/2" (50/50) Tank top 3/16" = ~ 20 m, Leg 3/16" Skeg, Rudder 1/8" =~ 40 m, Leg 1/8" 2. Assembly, ~ Weight of deposited welding metal needed (Lbs): Hull, transom = ~ 29 Deck, Cabin, PilotHouse, FootWell =~ 13 Tween Keels (both) =~ 84 (probably less in reality) Tank top =~ 5 Skeg, Rudder =~ 4.5 ================ 3. Total estimated weight of the metal needed to be deposited = 135.5 Lbs ================ 4. Welding metal Deposition rate: 1/8" E7018 @ 140A deposition rate is ~ 2.65 Lb/hr 0.045" NR-211-MP @ 140A deposition rate is ~1.7 Lb/hr 0.045" ER70S-6 @ 145A, 100% CO2, deposition rate is ~3.06 Lb/hr 0.045" UltraCore 71C (E71T-1C-H8) @ 140A, deposition rate is ~4.96 Lb/hr 5. "Arc-On Time" welding hours (estimate is based on deposition rate Lb/hr for used consumables): SMAW (1/8" E7018) – 51.1 hr FCAW-S (0.045" NR-211-MP) – 79.5 hr GMAW (0.045" ER70S-6) – 44.3 hr *** AVOID THIS PROCESS! *** FCAW-G (0.045" UltraCore 71C) – 27.3 hr 6. Weight of consumables for cost estimate (based on Lincoln's consumables from the same Internet welding supplier – MSRP/discount price???): SMAW – 280 Lbs @ $3.26/Lb (1/8" Excalibur E7018 MR) FCAW-S – 180 Lbs @ $5.66Lb (0.045" Innershield NR-211-MP) GMAW – 160 Lbs @ $2.69/Lb (0.045" SuperArc L56) + Gas rent/cost ~ 5x300ft^3 tanks (20-30CFH) FCAW-G – 165 Lbs @ $2.06/Lb (0.045" UltraCore 71C) + Gas rent/cost ~5x300ft^3 tanks (40-50CFH) REMEMBER: for GMAW, FCAW-S and FCAW-G you need to move equipment close to work area, need more expensive equipment, may need wind screen and shielding gas for GMAW, FCAW-G; may have possible troubles with wire feeder and MIG-gun (only 30% duty cycle). Taking into an account all the above.... SMAW process looks like a reasonable compromise ;)| 27713|4244|2012-02-25 18:27:49|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust|I insulated my dry exhaust with fibreglass house insulation, covered with the cloth like 3 inch wide muffler tape. This, I covered with common caulking gun silicone. After days of motoring in the tropics , it is cool to the touch. The tape alone is not enough, the fibreglass makes all the difference. On 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe the end result is roughly 4 inches in diameter. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > I am putting in dry exhaust on a 4 cyl 54 hp LE 1 Isuzu. The exhaust pipe will be bound with insulating material (large roll, white cloth like material). It will be about 2 to 3 inches from the bottom and side of my diesel tank (painted mild steel). I have been told that diesel has a high tolerance for indirect heat but I thought I would seek out opinion here for this installation. (Please see comment below) > > thanks... Gary > > "ABYC P-1 requires that the insulated surface temperature of a dry exhaust be limited to a maximum 200 �F (93 �C), which is well below diesel fuel's Autoignition temperature � 410 �F (210 �C)." > __________________ > | 27714|4244|2012-02-25 18:33:38|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust|Make sure your riser is high enough, as close to deck level as is safe. On long straight runs you can snap that pre formed sheet metal chimney pipe over the insulation. When I asked my father, a lifetime steam engineer, what kind of difference in temperature going from a 1 1/2 inch to a 2 inch pipe would make, he said " A huge difference." --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Gary, > > The fibre glass exhaust header lagging tape is pretty good. with a 3M > exhuast run (11/2 in sch 40 pipe 20kw engine) After an hours running I > can still put my hand on the exhaust about 800mm from the header. I > used three layers of tape. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson. > > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Darren Bos wrote: > > Matt made some good points. �I would also > > consider that short of causing a fire, you really > > want to keep heat away from the diesel tank. �The > > more you heat up the fuel tank, the more air it > > is going to draw back into it as it cools, the > > water in that air will condense and headaches > > will ensue as microorganisms grow in the water > > laden fuel and eventually clog fuel filters. > > > > > > Darren > > > > > > At 10:07 AM 23/02/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >>It relies greatly on ventilation of the > >>space. �A little ventilation will do a lot to > >>lower the temperature of the outside of the > >>pipe. � Other effects are other sources of heat > >>in the area, like the engine block and coolant > >>lines. �Finally, the ability of the envelope > >>space to lose heat -- here is one place where an > >>uninsulated section of underwater hull is > >>better. � The ABYC standard, if I were to > >>compare it to residential furnace chimney flue > >>clearances, seems to provide for less safety at > >>your proposed 2-3". �Lots of things in boats are > >>less safe than in houses, however, if one can > >>make it as safe as a house that is better. > >> > >>Propane and Natural Gas codes: CSA B149 > >>Fuel Oil code: CSA B139 > >>Solid Fuel Burning code: CSA B365 > >> > >>All these talk about the installation of > >>different types of flues and the clearance to > >>combustibles. � For instance, a straight black > >>stove pipe, single layer steel, I believe the > >>minimum clearance to combustibles is 18 > >>inches. � �One might compare that to an > >>un-insulated exhaust pipe, which of course you > >>would never do. � Clearly, you are looking at an > >>insulated pipe so, you would have to look at the > >>different insulated manufactured flues and see > >>what one is most like what you are going to > >>construct. � I find it hard to believe you will > >>find comparable numbers there that are less than > >>6 inches. �Also, these are not engineering > >>books, they do not account for the reflective > >>insulating properties of intermediate flashings, > >>so placing a thermally isolated flashing (sheet > >>of metal) say half way between the pipe and the > >>tank would not be covered there. � If I were > >>crammed for space, I would put as many measures > >>in place as possible to keep my diesel tank as > >>cool as I possibly could, to be better than the > >>ABYC. � Also, be careful of exhaust pipe welds, > >>joins and possible degradation in the area of > >>the tank, failure of any of these could greatly > >>change the amount of heat the tank sees. > >> > >>Also, it is not the autoignition temperature > >>which is important, it is the flame/flash > >>point. �If one is producing fumes from heated > >>diesel it can still flash like > >>gasoline. � Heated diesel and a spark can create > >>a fire. �The flash point of diesel is less than > >>200F. � �So I would take extra care to make sure > >>no diesel could ever get on the even insulated > >>pipe, nor the pipe could make the tank warmer > >>than 200F. � I would also, to the extent that is > >>possible, remove any possible source of a spark > >>from the compartment where the exhaust pipe runs. > >> > >>One has only one exhaust pipe. �I feel it is worth extra thought. > >> > >>Matt > >> > >> > >>To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>From: aguysailing@... > >>Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:57:16 +0000 > >>Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> � � � I am putting in dry exhaust on a 4 cyl 54 > >> hp LE 1 Isuzu. The exhaust pipe will be bound > >> with insulating material (large roll, white > >> cloth like material). It will be about 2 to 3 > >> inches from the bottom and side of my diesel > >> tank (painted mild steel). I have been told > >> that diesel has a high tolerance for indirect > >> heat but I thought I would seek out opinion > >> here for this installation. (Please see comment below) > >> > >> > >> > >>thanks... Gary > >> > >> > >> > >>"ABYC P-1 requires that the insulated surface > >>temperature of a dry exhaust be limited to a > >>maximum 200 �F (93 �C), which is well below > >>diesel fuel's Autoignition temperature � 410 �F (210 �C)." > >> > >>__________________ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >>------------------------------------ > >> > >>To Post a message, send it to: � origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: � origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 27715|27691|2012-02-25 19:04:09|brentswain38|Re: Some more tank-top questions.|The tank top, combined with the hull plate, is an extremely strong, triangular box section shape. Tying the ends of the transverse webs to it's edge makes an extremely strong arrangement. The hull plate and the keel sides are curved along the keel length, also geometrically an extremely strong shape. You can get an idea of the strengths of two curves joining, by taking a length of piano hinge and flexing it. Then open it 90 degrees and try flexing it again. It is far stiffer opened. The plate joining the keel edge is 8 ft of 3/16thg plate per side, with a total tensile strength of 1.08 million pounds of total tensile strength per side, making a total of 4.32 million pounds holding on the twin keels ( 8 sides). The trick is getting adequate stiffness. The curved edge of the keels welded to the curved edge of the hull, so close, does a lot of that on it's own. Anything joining the webs to the tank top, is a bonus. The one part of the arrangement which is most likely to dent is the trailing edges of the keels, in a hull speed impact with a rock. They have a tremendous impact on the hull plate there, wanting to drive it upwards. On the 36, the trailing edges of the keels are under the wheelhouse floor, so one has enough room to make a massive overkill there without getting in the way of the floor space, tankage or accommodation in any way. On the 26, space there is far more limited. Terminating the angle on the tank top wouldn't make it much stronger, as the tank top is flexible. Tying it longitudinally to the tank top- hull seam is far stronger, as that is a very hard point, without the flex of the tank top. While this is the strongest arrangement I can think of, without reducing floor space, what you propose is quite strong. Using half inch plate for the centreline webs, especially the aft web, would be a good idea. When you don't use the space between the keels as tankage, you raise the centre of gravity of your tankage, a considerable weight, reducing stability. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Well I'm not sure which way is the strongest way to go, my guess would be tying everything together, angle irons to the keel, the tank top and ideally any frames you've incorporated into the tank as directly possible to give best cross sectional strength. The angle iron, when I got the boat (the one in the video) were running through the top of the keels, the top section protrudes into the boat about 4 inches or so. The tank top, the inside edge of the keel and the angle iron come together at the same point. The angle meets the tank top with the vertical section of the angle iron, then there is a gusset like piece welded from the top of the angle to the top of the tank. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > > > Hello Brent and everyone ... > > > > Because I didn't want to have any built-in tanks in my boat, last August I posted a message asking how structurally important the tank top was (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/26469), . Brent, in his posts in reply, detailed what had to be done to maintain the strength of the twin keels if the tank top between the keels was left out (eg - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/26475). > > > > I've also carefully watched (many, many times!) the "Internal Keel Webs Installation" chapter that's towards the end of Alex's 2nd video DVD (1:12:56 into DVD #2). This segment very clearly describes how the tank top is an integral part of the twin keels structure. > > > > I'm still in two minds about having built-in tanks in my boat. I still haven't completely decided wether to fit the tank top between the keels or not. But I've got to decide very soon - the keels are in, and fitting the transverse keel webs is the next step. > > > > Now, the two questions I'm about to ask here will probably clearly show that I'm definitely not an engineer! :-) But I'm baffled by a couple of engineering aspects of the strengthening webs for the twin keels, and I would be most grateful if someone would explain the following: > > > > 1) Without the tank top in place, I was going to run the reinforcing web angle transversely from the chine, over the top of the keels, and down to the boats centerline, where it would meet the transverse reinforcing web angle from the other side. As well, a horizontal length of angle would run horizontally across the hull from web to web (just below the wheelhouse sole), and the triangle thus formed would also be filled with sheet steel welded to the angle, thus making a large, very strong floor. There would be 3 or 4 of these structures passing transversly over the keels. Now, I would have assumed that such an arrangement would provide far stronger support for the twin keels compared to simply terminating the transverse web angle on the tank top (as detailed in the above chapter in Alex's video). But my assumption is not correct - apparently installing the keel webs as it's done in Alex's video (1:12:56 into DVD #2) is far stronger. But why is this so? Does the tank top, together with the hull sides below it, form some sort of "box girder" that massively increases the strength of the hull in that area? Or is there some other reason? > > > > 2) In the above chapter in Alex's video, the transverse reinforcing web angle does not actually terminate on the tank top. It seems they don't touch the tank top at all! Instead, a small steel tab is welded in a vertical orientation on the tank-top/hull junction, and the transverse web angle is then welded to those tabs. Why is it done that way? Wouldn't it be better/stronger to run the angle all the way to the tank top, and weld it to the tank top itself? > > > > Sorry for all the questions! But I would very greatly appreciate a technical explanation for these issues. > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > ______________________________________________________________ > > > | 27716|4244|2012-02-25 19:07:19|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust|An often used drainage sump on a gravity feed day tank would do the same thing. Drain a bit out from time to time, as fire starter for your wood stove. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > I saw a product the other day that would make this a non issue. They had a canister that held silica for absorbing moisture inline in the vent line for the fuel tank. they wanted about 100 bucks for it but you could build one out of a piece of pvc pipe with some fort of filter to keep the silica in it. They were using the indicating silica that changes color as it is gets saturated. You can then heat it up in your oven for half an hour or so to dry it back out and re-use it. > > You could find the silica and make a canister to run the vent line through fairly cheaply yourself. > > Their version of it looked to be about 8 inches long or so and 2 or three inches in diameter and they were saying that it should last about a year. Their version used a clear cylinder that you could see through to see what color the silica is so you can tell when to change it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Matt made some good points. I would also > > consider that short of causing a fire, you really > > want to keep heat away from the diesel tank. The > > more you heat up the fuel tank, the more air it > > is going to draw back into it as it cools, the > > water in that air will condense and headaches > > will ensue as microorganisms grow in the water > > laden fuel and eventually clog fuel filters. > > > > > > Darren > > > | 27717|4244|2012-02-26 08:24:42|jhess314|exhaust pipe size|Brent, Could you further explain why the temperature of 2" pipe would be different from 1-1/2" pipe? Thanks, John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Make sure your riser is high enough, as close to deck level as is safe. On long straight runs you can snap that pre formed sheet metal chimney pipe over the insulation. > When I asked my father, a lifetime steam engineer, what kind of difference in temperature going from a 1 1/2 inch to a 2 inch pipe would make, he said " A huge difference." > | 27718|4244|2012-02-26 11:10:40|Gary H. Lucas|Re: exhaust pipe size|John, The basic equations for gases state that when a gas expands, it’s temperature will drop proportionately. So a 2” pipe will contain nearly twice as much gas at a lower temperature. Heat gain in the boat is proportional to the differential temperature of the hot gases versus the surrounding air, times the surface area of the pipe, divided by the insulation value (rough explanation). The gain in hot surface area on the pipe is relatively very small, while the volume gain is large. So the fairly large drop in exhaust temperature results in much less heat transferred out of the exhaust. In fact, if you used an entire compartment as the exhaust pipe you’d see a temperature rise of only a couple of degrees! Gary H. Lucas From: jhess314 Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] exhaust pipe size Brent, Could you further explain why the temperature of 2" pipe would be different from 1-1/2" pipe? Thanks, John --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Make sure your riser is high enough, as close to deck level as is safe. On long straight runs you can snap that pre formed sheet metal chimney pipe over the insulation. > When I asked my father, a lifetime steam engineer, what kind of difference in temperature going from a 1 1/2 inch to a 2 inch pipe would make, he said " A huge difference." > Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27719|26545|2012-02-26 16:12:41|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables estimate)|As you can see from message #27712 the difference in: "Arc-On Time" welding hours: SMAW (1/8" E7018) – 51.1 Hr (Base line) FCAW-S (0.045" NR-211-MP) – (+28.4 hr) GMAW (0.045" ER70S-6) – (-6.8 hr) *** AVOID THIS PROCESS! *** FCAW-G (0.045" UltraCore 71C) – (-23.8 hr) "Consumables price": SMAW – 280 Lbs @ $3.26/Lb = $ 913 (Base line) FCAW-S – 180 Lbs @ $5.66Lb = $ 1019 (+ $106) GMAW – 160 Lbs @ $2.69/Lb = $ 580 with refill of CO2 gas (- $333) FCAW-G – 165 Lbs @ $2.06/Lb = $ 490 with refill of CO2 gas (- $423) We are talking about MAX saving on consumables ~ $423 (for boat project) using FCAW-G process compare to SMAW (Stick welding). It is need to take into an account the refill of CO2 gas bottles (5 times if you use 300 ft^3 bottle). More likely, most people will go for smaller portable bottles - means more refills). So, you need to drive to gas supplier and back, wasting "Arc-on time" you supposed to save. At least, if you still want to proceed with MIG, use FCAW-G process (with certified wire for boat building) for entire boat's project... New 240VAC MIG/FCAW units available for as low as $300-400. FCAW-S could be useful for detailing to minimize distortion (using smaller wire 0.030", 0.035" remembering that this wire size is NOT certified for critical welds + check what wire you use is certified for). New Small 110VAC FCAW-S units available for about $100-200.| 27720|27691|2012-02-27 01:13:08|Kim|Re: Some more tank-top questions.|Thanks Haidan for the description of the keel setup on your boat. And thank you, Brent, for your very comprehensive description of how the tank top makes the twin keel assembly so strong. I've now got a much better picture of how it all works! Re the weight of stuff: I think that the 900lbs of lead that's melted into each keel will fill each keel a bit over half way. I was going to store fresh water in bags/bladders in the space above the lead in the keels. If that idea worked, I figured that the weight of the boat's fresh water supply would be at about the same height, or only slightly higher than, any fresh water stored in the built-in tank on the centerline between the keels. I wanted to put the batteries for an electric motor on the centerline in the space between the keels (where the built-in tank would have otherwise gone), because the batteries will be very much heavier than than the boats fresh water supply. There's not really anywhere else to store the batteries on the 26-footer without having their weight too high. Anyway, I haven't completely made a decision on this yet, although I'm leaning heavily towards leaving the tank top out. If I do leave it out, Brent, I'll implement all your structural recommendations that will be required to restore and maintain the strength in this area. Many thanks once again! Cheers ... Kim. __________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The tank top, combined with the hull plate, is an extremely strong, triangular box section shape. Tying the ends of the transverse webs to it's edge makes an extremely strong arrangement. The hull plate and the keel sides are curved along the keel length, also geometrically an extremely strong shape. > > You can get an idea of the strengths of two curves joining, by taking a length of piano hinge and flexing it. Then open it 90 degrees and try flexing it again. It is far stiffer opened. > > The plate joining the keel edge is 8 ft of 3/16thg plate per side, with a total tensile strength of 1.08 million pounds of total tensile strength per side, making a total of 4.32 million pounds holding on the twin keels (8 sides). > > The trick is getting adequate stiffness. The curved edge of the keels welded to the curved edge of the hull, so close, does a lot of that on it's own. Anything joining the webs to the tank top, is a bonus. > > The one part of the arrangement which is most likely to dent is the trailing edges of the keels, in a hull speed impact with a rock. They have a tremendous impact on the hull plate there, wanting to drive it upwards. On the 36, the trailing edges of the keels are under the wheelhouse floor, so one has enough room to make a massive overkill there without getting in the way of the floor space, tankage or accommodation in any way. On the 26, space there is far more limited. > > Terminating the angle on the tank top wouldn't make it much stronger, as the tank top is flexible. Tying it longitudinally to the tank top - hull seam is far stronger, as that is a very hard point, without the flex of the tank top. > > While this is the strongest arrangement I can think of, without reducing floor space, what you propose is quite strong. Using half inch plate for the centreline webs, especially the aft web, would be a good idea. > > When you don't use the space between the keels as tankage, you raise the centre of gravity of your tankage, a considerable weight, reducing stability. __________________________________________ | 27721|26545|2012-02-27 08:17:48|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables estimate)|Wild, Has it occurred to you that if you were actually welding, you’d have this boat in the water by now? Gary H. Lucas From: wild_explorer Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:12 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables estimate) As you can see from message #27712 the difference in: "Arc-On Time" welding hours: SMAW (1/8" E7018) – 51.1 Hr (Base line) FCAW-S (0.045" NR-211-MP) – (+28.4 hr) GMAW (0.045" ER70S-6) – (-6.8 hr) *** AVOID THIS PROCESS! *** FCAW-G (0.045" UltraCore 71C) – (-23.8 hr) "Consumables price": SMAW – 280 Lbs @ $3.26/Lb = $ 913 (Base line) FCAW-S – 180 Lbs @ $5.66Lb = $ 1019 (+ $106) GMAW – 160 Lbs @ $2.69/Lb = $ 580 with refill of CO2 gas (- $333) FCAW-G – 165 Lbs @ $2.06/Lb = $ 490 with refill of CO2 gas (- $423) We are talking about MAX saving on consumables ~ $423 (for boat project) using FCAW-G process compare to SMAW (Stick welding). It is need to take into an account the refill of CO2 gas bottles (5 times if you use 300 ft^3 bottle). More likely, most people will go for smaller portable bottles - means more refills). So, you need to drive to gas supplier and back, wasting "Arc-on time" you supposed to save. At least, if you still want to proceed with MIG, use FCAW-G process (with certified wire for boat building) for entire boat's project... New 240VAC MIG/FCAW units available for as low as $300-400. FCAW-S could be useful for detailing to minimize distortion (using smaller wire 0.030", 0.035" remembering that this wire size is NOT certified for critical welds + check what wire you use is certified for). New Small 110VAC FCAW-S units available for about $100-200. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27722|4244|2012-02-27 12:37:45|jhess314|Re: exhaust pipe size|Well, that's very interesting. Thanks, Gary. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > John, > The basic equations for gases state that when a gas expands, it’s temperature will drop proportionately. So a 2” pipe will contain nearly twice as much gas at a lower temperature. Heat gain in the boat is proportional to the differential temperature of the hot gases versus the surrounding air, times the surface area of the pipe, divided by the insulation value (rough explanation). The gain in hot surface area on the pipe is relatively very small, while the volume gain is large. So the fairly large drop in exhaust temperature results in much less heat transferred out of the exhaust. In fact, if you used an entire compartment as the exhaust pipe you’d see a temperature rise of only a couple of degrees! > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: jhess314 > Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:24 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] exhaust pipe size > > > Brent, > Could you further explain why the temperature of 2" pipe would be different from 1-1/2" pipe? > > Thanks, > John | 27723|26545|2012-02-27 15:19:09|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables estimate)|Nope... I would not have a boat on the water by now. I would spent more than I want for this project or have rusting unfinished hull by now ;) There are several reasons for that: Let say I could start it 1 year ago without all information I have now. 1. I did not know how to weld and what I need for welding. 2. With cheap equipment's duty cycle 20% and operator factor factor ~10% (including parts positioning, joint preparation, cleaning, protective coat on the weld at the end of the day, etc) it will be ~ 510 hours for SMAW (= 51 day for 10 hrs shift). Plus cutting hours (even now I am not so confident in my cutting skills) 3. I could work ~10 Hr a week (1 weekend, travel time is not included). By my best estimate it would take 51 weeks just to weld the boat. Let's round it to 12 month. And this if I KNEW how to weld. 4. I would have to rent a place, which in my area would be around $1000/mo. $12,000 a year. 5. If I hire someone who has experience (not just welding, but welding small boat) let say for $20/hr, it would be $10,200 + $3,000 (3 month rent). 6. Plus consumables. I prefer to be ready to give this project 100% of my time and save $10K. I can use it for the boat instead.... I expect to spend several month (NOT Years) on this project. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Wild, > Has it occurred to you that if you were actually welding, you’d have this boat in the water by now? > > Gary H. Lucas | 27724|26545|2012-02-28 13:27:19|haidan|Re: Basic welding questions|Wild you've certainly put a lot of work into figuring everything out to the last detail, certainly there's nothing wrong with that, though I would sat that there's a point where doing the calculations before hand won't bring you any further to completing the boat than doing them as you go. And one should figure out where that point is themselves. The total length of welds/costs is interesting to know, I found when I was using a mig machine I went through a lot of consumables, I would estimate that using a wire feed machine to build a whole boat one would go through 20-30 tips, maybe a traction wheel and a housing, if you've put those into your estimates I don't know, but that's a couple hundred bucks or so. A couple things I would recommend spending time researching is 1.) a good source of cheap stainless. I don't know what the case is down where you are (Portland area? if I remember correctly) but scrap yards with stainless around here are becoming rare commodities, everything just gets flattened and shipped bulk to china rather than sorted and sold locally. Start scrounging now, you'll know how much you'll need for the trim ect... 2.) Another place that would merit putting your energies into would be finding a place cheaper than 1000 bucks a month, you need a concrete pad with 50amp 220v with maybe some cover, not a two bedroom apartment. I think if you could get more than enough steel for anything you would want to build and find a place that won't break the bank if you stay an extra couple months that will save you more money than whether you spend 500 bucks more on welding rod. Less stress too, which is huge and hard to put a price on. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I tried couple more MIG-process (Gas shielded) > > 1. Pulsed Spray Transfer with 0.035" ER70S-6 wire and 90% Argon + 10% CO2 > > It designed for robotic applications. By hands it makes good welds.... Sometime.... ;). > > Everything should be setup perfectly + constant distance to work + constant travel speed. We had some problems with gas in the lines. Sometimes it would make nice weld, next time - terrible. Equipment is expensive. > > Conclusion: May be good for welding in the shop. Not worst of wasting time to learn for welding on a small boat. > > 2. FCAW-G (Flux core wire + shielding gas) with 0.045" E71T-1C-H8 and 100% CO2 > > Nice welds! Almost as good as with E7018 Electrode. Easy-y-y... Learned to weld with it from horizontal to vertical up in less than 2 hours ;)). Regular MIG welder. > > Need to clean flux. Sometimes Makes some kind of "warm's trail" in the weld (do not know why). > > Conclusion: Worth of learning. It gives MUCH better weld compare to wire without flux. Need to try FCAW-S (Flux Core without gas). > > P.S. MIG gun type and equipment makes a difference. I used fancy programmable Miller unit for a while - I do not like it. When I switched to "pre-programmed" unit (Miller XMT 350) - much better. > > MIG gun with "fixed head" performed much better than with "slide in" head. Remember about <30% duty cycle for most MIG guns!!! If it overheats, it starts making bad welds (inconsistent speed of wire, etc). > | 27725|4244|2012-02-28 13:58:21|GP|Re: exhaust pipe size|Are you saying a 2 inch pipe will have a lower temperature than a 1.5 inch pipe? ..thanks --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > John, > The basic equations for gases state that when a gas expands, it’s temperature will drop proportionately. So a 2” pipe will contain nearly twice as much gas at a lower temperature. Heat gain in the boat is proportional to the differential temperature of the hot gases versus the surrounding air, times the surface area of the pipe, divided by the insulation value (rough explanation). The gain in hot surface area on the pipe is relatively very small, while the volume gain is large. So the fairly large drop in exhaust temperature results in much less heat transferred out of the exhaust. In fact, if you used an entire compartment as the exhaust pipe you’d see a temperature rise of only a couple of degrees! > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: jhess314 > Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:24 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] exhaust pipe size > > > Brent, > Could you further explain why the temperature of 2" pipe would be different from 1-1/2" pipe? > > Thanks, > John > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Make sure your riser is high enough, as close to deck level as is safe. On long straight runs you can snap that pre formed sheet metal chimney pipe over the insulation. > > When I asked my father, a lifetime steam engineer, what kind of difference in temperature going from a 1 1/2 inch to a 2 inch pipe would make, he said " A huge difference." > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27726|26545|2012-02-28 14:06:35|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Wild you've certainly put a lot of work into figuring everything > out to the last detail, certainly there's nothing wrong with that, >though I would sat that there's a point where doing the calculations > before hand won't bring you any further to completing the boat than > doing them as you go. And one should figure out where that point is > themselves. Agree. But there is a point you should not start a project without understanding what is involved. Better to waste time than money.... I am moving to a point actually starting a boat soon, that why I do all these calculations ;) Renting place for boat building in SF Bay Area have prohibitive cost (if you cannot drive far distance or know someone who can give you discount on site's rent). > The total length of welds/costs is interesting to know, I found > when I was using a mig machine I went through a lot of consumables, > I would estimate that using a wire feed machine to build a whole > boat one would go through 20-30 tips, maybe a traction wheel and a > housing, if you've put those into your estimates I don't know, but > that's a couple hundred bucks or so. Misc items are NOT included in the calculation (MIG-gun tips, wheels for a feeder, tips for plasma-cutter or gas for oxy-cutting, grinding/cleaning consumables, grinding time to remove 1/8" from the edge after oxy-cutting (according to welding code), etc. It could be more money than welding wire/rods. > A couple things I would recommend spending time researching is > 1.) a good source of cheap stainless. I don't know what the case is > down where you are (Portland area? if I remember correctly) but > scrap yards with stainless around here are becoming rare > commodities, everything just gets flattened and shipped bulk to > china rather than sorted and sold locally. Start scrounging now, >you'll know how much you'll need for the trim ect. It would be a good advice IF I planned to built it here and had some place to keep it.... I plan to build it in Portland (instead of SF). Not worth of renting a track to move the metal even if I could get a good price on it. There are some scrap places in PDX. > 2.) Another place that would merit putting your energies into would > be finding a place cheaper than 1000 bucks a month, you need a > concrete pad with 50amp 220v with maybe some cover, not a two > bedroom apartment. Again, I have to move to PDX first ;) > I think if you could get more than enough steel for anything you > would want to build and find a place that won't break the bank if > you stay an extra couple months that will save you more money than > whether you spend 500 bucks more on welding rod. Less stress too, > which is huge and hard to put a price on. Yep, to be close to steel and welding suppliers, cheap rent for boatbuilding site is essential.| 27727|26545|2012-02-28 15:18:22|Paul Thompson|Re: Basic welding questions|Wild > Better to waste time than money.... I am moving to a point actually starting a boat soon, that why I do all these calculations ;) R > Mate, you've got your priorities wrong. Your time is a finite resource and the clock is ticking. Money you can make more of but time when it's gone, it's gone and you do not know when it will run out. Funny how people will squander their greatest and most precious resource. I'd say stop farting around with all the theory and get on with it. Brent's already beaten the path, all you have to do is follow. Get the book, buy the plans and get on with it, the rest is wanking. -- Regards, Paul Thompson| 27728|26545|2012-02-28 15:56:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: Basic welding questions|On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 09:18:20AM +1300, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Your time is a finite resource > and the clock is ticking. Money you can make more of but time when > it's gone, it's gone and you do not know when it will run out. Funny > how people will squander their greatest and most precious resource. That's earned a spot in my quote file. :) Very well said, Paul. Ben -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik| 27729|26545|2012-02-28 16:12:20|wild_explorer|Project planning|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Wild > > > Better to waste time than money.... I am moving to a point actually starting a boat soon, that why I do all these calculations ;) R > > > > Mate, you've got your priorities wrong. I do not think so... > Your time is a finite resource > and the clock is ticking. Money you can make more of but time when > it's gone, it's gone and you do not know when it will run out. Funny > how people will squander their greatest and most precious resource. Cannot argue with that, but (see below)... > > I'd say stop farting around with all the theory and get on with it. > Brent's already beaten the path, all you have to do is follow. Get the > book, buy the plans and get on with it, the rest is wanking. > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson Now, Paul, without going into philosophical discussion, there is a simple exercise for you: You want to build Brent's 36 footer from Zero point (no welding and metal working skills, no clue about steel boat building, etc). You have all the time on your hands, found free building site without power, away from steel suppliers and scrap yards. There are no jobs around. You have $3,000 cash. How long will it take for you to build a boat and at what total expense (including EVERYTHING)? I would appreciate if you can give detailed estimate on time and money spent for such project including the source of income ;)| 27730|4244|2012-02-28 17:01:08|Matt Malone|Pipe Size: Exhaust Temperature, Through-Hulls and Cockpit Drains: ex|Yes pipe size can decrease exhaust pipe temperature. It depends on how large the exhaust back pressure is from the exhaust system. Remember PV = nRT ? Pressure is measured in absolute, temperature in absolute. A 1 PSI over pressure is about 16 PSI instead of 15 PSI for atmospheric. Room temperature in Kelvin is 293K. Water boiling temperature is 373K. If your EGT is 400C, then in Kelvin, that is 673K. Any pipe restriction that increases back pressure will increase temperature. At a given (back) pressure, flow rate goes by between the 2.65th and 4th power of the pipe diameter, so 1.5" and 2" pipe are massively different in flow capacity, by a factor of between 2 and 3, depending on the application. So: - If 1.5" pipe presented a lot of back pressure, 2" pipe will present a lot less back pressure, and therefore temperature will decrease. - If the 1.5" pipe was properly sized and there was little back pressure, then going to 2" will make little difference. It all depends what exhaust is the right size for your engine. Remember also that 15PSI = 30 feet of water head, or 1 PSI is about 2 feet. If your wet exhaust is forced under the water more, say on one tack, then your EGT will go up. Also, some back pressure is generated in a cruiser-desirable exhaust system. "Straight pipes" will offer less back pressure and lower temperature for a given engine/throttle, but will sound like "Straight pipes" -- who wants that on a cruiser. Pipe Size on Through Hulls: Think of through-hulls as potential holes in the hull. This power effect on diameter is why a 1/2" hole in the hull is a much smaller problem than a 2" hole -- a factor of between 40 and 250. The threshold where a leak is bailable with a bucket is quite sharp when measured in diameter. This is why stuffing things in holes, and keeping wood pegs near through hulls is important. Keep through-hulls and hoses small. Have patience on the sink draining. Doubling the size to have an "instant drain" sink also means a lot less time before the boat sinks if the hose fails near the through-hull. If one has small hoses and through-hulls, one might consider swapping out hoses while the boat is in the water -- using a stopper to plug the pipe for a moment while positioning the new hose. A small through-hull may mean that, during the change-out, it is only cups of water that enter the hull, instead of a buckets. Cockpit Drains: Cockpit drains are the opposite. Cutting the size of cockpit drains will quickly change the cockpit from a rapidly draining cockpit to a perpetual bathtub. Similarly, increasing the size of the cockpit drains a bit can really make a difference to the rate that the cockpit drains. Some cockpit drains have a perforated cover or mesh over them. If you place mesh or perforated covers (with round holes) over the drains, you change it from one big hole to N small holes. Doubling the size of the drain, but keeping the same sized perforations covering the drain will only increase the number of holes by 4, and not really take advantage of the larger drain. Meshed drains drain a lot slower than unmeshed drains. Experiment in your sink at hole. Increasing the cover perforation size from 3/16" to 1/2" means the drain will still not swallow a whistle, eraser or spoon, but it will drain noticably faster, possibly 3-5 times faster. Going to a 2" mesh cover over say a 6" drain pipe out the stern will prevent the escape of most cups, hand-helds and sunglasses through the transom drain and drain a lot quicker than say four grated drains of 1.5 inches each -- what my boat has now. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: aguysailing@... Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 18:58:19 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: exhaust pipe size Are you saying a 2 inch pipe will have a lower temperature than a 1.5 inch pipe? ..thanks --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > John, > The basic equations for gases state that when a gas expands, it���s temperature will drop proportionately. So a 2��� pipe will contain nearly twice as much gas at a lower temperature. Heat gain in the boat is proportional to the differential temperature of the hot gases versus the surrounding air, times the surface area of the pipe, divided by the insulation value (rough explanation). The gain in hot surface area on the pipe is relatively very small, while the volume gain is large. So the fairly large drop in exhaust temperature results in much less heat transferred out of the exhaust. In fact, if you used an entire compartment as the exhaust pipe you���d see a temperature rise of only a couple of degrees! > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: jhess314 > Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:24 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] exhaust pipe size > > > Brent, > Could you further explain why the temperature of 2" pipe would be different from 1-1/2" pipe? > > Thanks, > John > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Make sure your riser is high enough, as close to deck level as is safe. On long straight runs you can snap that pre formed sheet metal chimney pipe over the insulation. > > When I asked my father, a lifetime steam engineer, what kind of difference in temperature going from a 1 1/2 inch to a 2 inch pipe would make, he said " A huge difference." > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27731|27731|2012-02-28 17:43:05|brentswain38|The BS Chimney Flail|After having welded up all kinds of chimney scrapers to try get the hardened creosote out, all of which had a tendency to jam, I invented the BS chimney flail. Works flawlessly. I welded the centre of an 8 inch long piece of chain to the end of a rod. I put the rod in my stove pipe , chain end down, and put the electric drill on the other end. When I fired up the drill, the chain spun around like a chain flail, and flailed the creosote off quickly. Zero chance of it jamming ,as it goes instantly limp when I stop the drill.Make sure you only start the drill while the chain is in the stove pipe. Tire chains have hardened bits welded to it, which would make it even more effective. I have some old files I may cut up and weld bits of on the chain. I used 1/4 inch rod, which works ,but may upgrade to 3/8th oil tempered steel, now that I know the principle works.| 27732|26545|2012-02-28 17:47:37|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|When I worked at Great West Steel , we had a cheap Miller buzzbox on the joist production line, which was rated at 20% duty cycle at 225 amps. It ran full time at 225 amps, three shifts, 24 hours a day, and never burned up, nor gave any problem. You have a lot of forgiveness on the rated duty cycle. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Wild, you are slowly coming around to what Brent says in his book :). > > If I was building again, I would buy an inverter welder capable of > minimum 200 amps or more. Option is buy the extras and also go TIG if > desired for detail work with the SS. This is not necessary though if > you are happy with SS rods. TIG takes a lot of practice and a good > hand. The inverter welder is small enough and light enough I could take > it on board when I go sailing. > > If I was assured of having a good 220 volt AC power source, any old 220 > amp transformer welder would do if I was on a budget. Many boats have > been built this way. If you pay attention to the duty cycles, you > shouldn't burn out the welder building one boat, even if it is a cheap > one. Mount the welder in your shed or shop out of the rain and have a > good quality 50 foot stinger lead so you can quickly go to wherever you > are welding and not have to move the welder all the time. Set up time > every day is minimal. > > When you are finished welding, cut up the 50 foot welding cable and use > it for battery cables in the boat. > > I see no advantage to go with MIG unless you want to spend a lot of > money on consumables. Moving the MIG continually near to your work > would be a real pain and slow you down. In my mind MIG advantage is for > high speed production work and going too much and too fast on a boat > will totally screw it up. Welding a boat is best done slow and steady > without generating too much heat any any one spot. > > Lincoln welders are supposed to be very good quality. They were made in > USA but have now expanded worldwide. I am not sure if the quality has > suffered but they are still consistently rated one of the best companies > to work for since they pay their employees well and have profit > sharing. Because of this they are expensive though. If you are not a > commercial welder, I am not sure they are worth the extra price unless > you could resell it and recover some of the cost. > > Cheers, Paul ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email --> > | 27733|4244|2012-02-28 17:54:49|brentswain38|Re: exhaust pipe size|With the molecules squashed closer together, the heat rises, as they move much faster. 2 inch is a much larger cross section than a 1 1/2 inch pipe. 1 1/2 inch pipe is 1.76 sq inches cross section, 2 inch is 3.14 sq inches. Refrigeration is a sudden drop in pressure, such as a higher pressure in a smaller pipe reaching a much larger pipe, and dropping suddenly . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > Brent, > Could you further explain why the temperature of 2" pipe would be different from 1-1/2" pipe? > > Thanks, > John > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Make sure your riser is high enough, as close to deck level as is safe. On long straight runs you can snap that pre formed sheet metal chimney pipe over the insulation. > > When I asked my father, a lifetime steam engineer, what kind of difference in temperature going from a 1 1/2 inch to a 2 inch pipe would make, he said " A huge difference." > > > | 27734|26545|2012-02-28 18:54:58|Paul Thompson|Re: Project planning|Wild, It's very simple, you forget about the detailed plan and just start. You'll find that once you start some kind of magic happens and somehow (I cannot explain nor do I know why) but things start to fall into place. Things that help you along, bargains and assistance from unexpected sources you find things where you do not expect to find them and so on..... *** But *** you gota start and the sooner you start the sooner you end. With starting comes the knowledge and you'll find what you need. There's a gotcha though, you really, really have to want it. It's got to be your passion, it's what your day dreams and doodle's are all about. It your desire, it's everything that you want. Forget the girlfriend (if you got one, most likely she'll leave before the end(probably long before), forget the social life et. al... When it's like that, you will have the motivation and the inner means to get your BS36. If you do not feel that way about it, then you need lots of money but the funny thing is, nearly everyone I know who has the money to afford to do this, is not. The meticulousness planners that were all planning there boats 23 years ago when I built mine, are still all meticulously planning. I've sailing and living on my boat these last 23 years. The planners they still planning and waiting to afford to build. Me, I could not afford not to build, I could not afford not to sail and so I did what I needed to do. You want to know what it cost? It costs everything you have. Everything. So how about buying those plans? I believe you have not even done that yet. So how can you actually even be sure about what you are planing? Wild, I wish you well, I really hope that I will meet you out there one day but the omens are not good but if you really mean it, start. > Now, Paul, without going into philosophical discussion, there is a simple exercise for you: > > You want to build Brent's 36 footer from Zero point (no welding and metal working skills, no clue about steel boat building, etc). You have all the time on your hands, found free building site without power, away from steel suppliers and scrap yards. There are no jobs around. You have $3,000 cash. How long will it take for you to build a boat and at what total expense (including EVERYTHING)? I would appreciate if you can give detailed estimate on time and money spent for such project including the source of income ;) -- Regards, Paul Thompson| 27735|26545|2012-02-28 19:38:24|Paul Thompson|Re: Project planning|And Wild, I know where you are coming from, I'm also in IT (i seem to recall you are). Ex IBM MVS systems programmer, now Linux sys admin and also rails developer. I work from my boat. I dream't and planned and figured for nearly ten years and had nothing to show for it except everyone laughed at Paul and "the boat" that his going to build. Ja, the messiah is going to arrive first was the general opinion. Well eventually even I realised that also but one Saturday morning it hit me and I understood the trap I was in. I had a set of plans, not for my ideal boat, she was to small, to heavy, to fat just too bad.... On the Monday I ordered the steel (that was the months pay) bought a buzz box and started welding. The first frame fell apart when I picked it up cause my welds had no penetration but it rapidly got better. Four and a half years later I was in the water. If only Brent had been around then, it might have gone rather quicker. Now 23 years later, I still sail the same boat, no welds have failed, the Atlantic has been crossed multiple times and I'm currently in New Zealand (boat built and launched in South Africa), next year I start my single handed circumnavigation. Oh and by the way, I'm totally deaf, it helped and it did not but to get things done, sometimes you have to be deafer than others. -- Regards, Paul Thompson| 27736|26545|2012-02-28 20:06:21|Mark Hamill|Re: Basic welding questions|People learn in many different ways. People are often quite different from one another. What is good for one person is not good for another. So if Wild needs to do things in one way and it isn't your way--maybe you might make suggestions but I think it behooves one to do it gently. Life is over when you die--which may be at anytime--I'm not afraid of death. When it comes and it may be while eating a cupcake or working on my boat--you don't have any choice in it. Enjoy the moment. Do what makes you happy. I just don't agree that you have to worry that you'll never get time back once it is gone. Some have said that's a very European white way view. And judging by the state of the world, it hasn't served us well. Just my two cents. MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 11:06 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Wild you've certainly put a lot of work into figuring everything > out to the last detail, certainly there's nothing wrong with that, >though I would sat that there's a point where doing the calculations > before hand won't bring you any further to completing the boat than > doing them as you go. And one should figure out where that point is > themselves. Agree. But there is a point you should not start a project without understanding what is involved. Better to waste time than money.... I am moving to a point actually starting a boat soon, that why I do all these calculations ;) Renting place for boat building in SF Bay Area have prohibitive cost (if you cannot drive far distance or know someone who can give you discount on site's rent). > The total length of welds/costs is interesting to know, I found > when I was using a mig machine I went through a lot of consumables, > I would estimate that using a wire feed machine to build a whole > boat one would go through 20-30 tips, maybe a traction wheel and a > housing, if you've put those into your estimates I don't know, but > that's a couple hundred bucks or so. Misc items are NOT included in the calculation (MIG-gun tips, wheels for a feeder, tips for plasma-cutter or gas for oxy-cutting, grinding/cleaning consumables, grinding time to remove 1/8" from the edge after oxy-cutting (according to welding code), etc. It could be more money than welding wire/rods. > A couple things I would recommend spending time researching is > 1.) a good source of cheap stainless. I don't know what the case is > down where you are (Portland area? if I remember correctly) but > scrap yards with stainless around here are becoming rare > commodities, everything just gets flattened and shipped bulk to > china rather than sorted and sold locally. Start scrounging now, >you'll know how much you'll need for the trim ect. It would be a good advice IF I planned to built it here and had some place to keep it.... I plan to build it in Portland (instead of SF). Not worth of renting a track to move the metal even if I could get a good price on it. There are some scrap places in PDX. > 2.) Another place that would merit putting your energies into would > be finding a place cheaper than 1000 bucks a month, you need a > concrete pad with 50amp 220v with maybe some cover, not a two > bedroom apartment. Again, I have to move to PDX first ;) > I think if you could get more than enough steel for anything you > would want to build and find a place that won't break the bank if > you stay an extra couple months that will save you more money than > whether you spend 500 bucks more on welding rod. Less stress too, > which is huge and hard to put a price on. Yep, to be close to steel and welding suppliers, cheap rent for boatbuilding site is essential. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27737|27731|2012-02-28 20:15:10|James Pronk|Re: The BS Chimney Flail|Brent We did the same thing on the farm when I was growing. Instead of a chain we used a chicken! James --- On Tue, 2/28/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] The BS Chimney Flail To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, February 28, 2012, 5:43 PM   After having welded up all kinds of chimney scrapers to try get the hardened creosote out, all of which had a tendency to jam, I invented the BS chimney flail. Works flawlessly. I welded the centre of an 8 inch long piece of chain to the end of a rod. I put the rod in my stove pipe , chain end down, and put the electric drill on the other end. When I fired up the drill, the chain spun around like a chain flail, and flailed the creosote off quickly. Zero chance of it jamming ,as it goes instantly limp when I stop the drill.Make sure you only start the drill while the chain is in the stove pipe. Tire chains have hardened bits welded to it, which would make it even more effective. I have some old files I may cut up and weld bits of on the chain. I used 1/4 inch rod, which works ,but may upgrade to 3/8th oil tempered steel, now that I know the principle works. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27738|26545|2012-02-28 22:21:20|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables estimate)|Wild, Has it occurred to you that if you were actually welding, you’d have this boat in the water by now? Gary H. Lucas From: wild_explorer Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:12 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables estimate) As you can see from message #27712 the difference in: "Arc-On Time" welding hours: SMAW (1/8" E7018) – 51.1 Hr (Base line) FCAW-S (0.045" NR-211-MP) – (+28.4 hr) GMAW (0.045" ER70S-6) – (-6.8 hr) *** AVOID THIS PROCESS! *** FCAW-G (0.045" UltraCore 71C) – (-23.8 hr) "Consumables price": SMAW – 280 Lbs @ $3.26/Lb = $ 913 (Base line) FCAW-S – 180 Lbs @ $5.66Lb = $ 1019 (+ $106) GMAW – 160 Lbs @ $2.69/Lb = $ 580 with refill of CO2 gas (- $333) FCAW-G – 165 Lbs @ $2.06/Lb = $ 490 with refill of CO2 gas (- $423) We are talking about MAX saving on consumables ~ $423 (for boat project) using FCAW-G process compare to SMAW (Stick welding). It is need to take into an account the refill of CO2 gas bottles (5 times if you use 300 ft^3 bottle). More likely, most people will go for smaller portable bottles - means more refills). So, you need to drive to gas supplier and back, wasting "Arc-on time" you supposed to save. At least, if you still want to proceed with MIG, use FCAW-G process (with certified wire for boat building) for entire boat's project... New 240VAC MIG/FCAW units available for as low as $300-400. FCAW-S could be useful for detailing to minimize distortion (using smaller wire 0.030", 0.035" remembering that this wire size is NOT certified for critical welds + check what wire you use is certified for). New Small 110VAC FCAW-S units available for about $100-200. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27739|26545|2012-02-28 23:38:59|Paul Wilson|Re: Project planning|Excellent discussion..... Apologies for mixing threads.... On 29/02/2012 2:06 p.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > I just don't agree that you have to worry that you'll never get time > back once it is gone. Do you mean not to worry or do you mean you can get the time back? If it is get time back, please tell me how. I would like to make a claim against an ex-wife :) I found when building you either have the time and no money or money and not time but never both. If you have no money but lots of time, maybe the best thing you could do is get a second job. I saw many builders around me get swamped by details and they over-analyzed everything. It is not rocket science and we are extremely lucky that Brent tells us what works via his book, the video from Alex or this group. It is not very often that something new comes up. There are a thousand decisions to make when making a boat and you can't make them all in advance. The only guy who can build a boat in a few months is a guy who has done it many, many times before and knows exactly what he is doing. Personally, I think to build (to finish) a 36 foot boat in less than 2 years is a tremendous accomplishment. Very few do it. 1 year would be simply amazing. I did mine in spare time while working which was a drain and a long haul. I found that I would think about things a lot about 2 weeks before I had to make the decision and usually the answer would come in my sleep the night before the big decision. I found welding the hull was one of the easiest things to do when it came to building the boat. It is easy to screw it up, but it is not difficult (if that makes sense). I had only spent a few hours welding before I had the plates delivered and had no formal training. When you do a few tacks and start pulling on them with a winch, you soon find out whether your welding is any good or not. Paul, best of luck and I will try to visit next time I am in Auckland. We may bump in to each other cruising but I think you might be a year ahead of me. Sorry for my ignorance but I am curious, how do you communicate when underway, and how do you communicate with people like me who are only partially deaf? Cheers, Paul ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email --> | 27740|26545|2012-02-29 00:40:47|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Project planning|So how do you know what you do not know? Doing makes that pretty obvious. You don’t waste time on things that in your lack of knowledge you thought were important, but really are not. Gary H. Lucas From: Paul Wilson Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 11:36 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Project planning Excellent discussion..... Apologies for mixing threads.... On 29/02/2012 2:06 p.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > I just don't agree that you have to worry that you'll never get time > back once it is gone. Do you mean not to worry or do you mean you can get the time back? If it is get time back, please tell me how. I would like to make a claim against an ex-wife :) I found when building you either have the time and no money or money and not time but never both. If you have no money but lots of time, maybe the best thing you could do is get a second job. I saw many builders around me get swamped by details and they over-analyzed everything. It is not rocket science and we are extremely lucky that Brent tells us what works via his book, the video from Alex or this group. It is not very often that something new comes up. There are a thousand decisions to make when making a boat and you can't make them all in advance. The only guy who can build a boat in a few months is a guy who has done it many, many times before and knows exactly what he is doing. Personally, I think to build (to finish) a 36 foot boat in less than 2 years is a tremendous accomplishment. Very few do it. 1 year would be simply amazing. I did mine in spare time while working which was a drain and a long haul. I found that I would think about things a lot about 2 weeks before I had to make the decision and usually the answer would come in my sleep the night before the big decision. I found welding the hull was one of the easiest things to do when it came to building the boat. It is easy to screw it up, but it is not difficult (if that makes sense). I had only spent a few hours welding before I had the plates delivered and had no formal training. When you do a few tacks and start pulling on them with a winch, you soon find out whether your welding is any good or not. Paul, best of luck and I will try to visit next time I am in Auckland. We may bump in to each other cruising but I think you might be a year ahead of me. Sorry for my ignorance but I am curious, how do you communicate when underway, and how do you communicate with people like me who are only partially deaf? Cheers, Paul ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email --> Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27741|26545|2012-02-29 07:10:08|Kim|Re: Project planning|Paul: An excellent post! This is exactly what amateur boatbuilding is all about! I completely agree with that intangible "magic happens" bit when it comes to boatbuilding. Wild: I do not for a minute want to knock your approach to preparing for your boatbuilding project. So please don't take the following comments as being in any way critical. I definitely don't mean them to be. But Paul is absolutely correct! While you're planning, starting will always be a couple of steps/months/years away. The clock is ticking. If you really want your boat, then just start! Don't worry if you don't have enough money. I know that sounds completely ridiculous; but as Paul said, once you start, "magic happens"!! You'll find that complete strangers will wander in and hang around to help you do stuff. If you're really dedicated, and *really* want the boat, somehow you will find the money to buy a few more supplies for another weekend's work. The Swain 26 I'm building now is the 5th boat I've built for myself, and in every case (including this one) I had almost nothing when I started; but I nevertheless finished and launched the first four and they're all still going strong. It's amazing how much you can scrimp and save if you really have to! In fact, when I started this 26-footer I had less than the $3000 cash you've got now; but it too will be launched soon (and I'm keeping this one!! :-)). You'll literally go without food, or work at 3 jobs, to buy some more supplies (that's part of the "dedicated" bit)! Don't worry about your welding skills. As Brent said in a recent post, welds just don't break on small steel boats, even those welded together by really bad, inexperienced welders. I was (and still am) a pretty crappy welder too; but now every 8 weeks or so someone wanders into my boatsite, has a look around, and offers me a welding job!! The practice you've had at the welding course you've been attending is definitely more than enough to enable you to start. Don't worry about finding the perfect building site. If you look hard enough you'll find (within a few hours drive of where you live) a grotty corner of someone's yard in an industrial estate that they'll let you use for a nominal rent. To use myself as an example again: the site I started building the 26-footer on had no power, no prospect of ever getting power, and I had resigned myself to using a petrol generator for the whole project. 2 months later mains power was connected! (Yet another example of the "magic happens" that Paul mentioned!) Do worry, a lot, about time! All my nieces and nephews think that I'm a "really old man", and let me tell you, (from someone who is watching time accelerate past faster and faster, and is acutely aware that the clock is ticking! :-)), time spent on excessive planning for a boatbuilding project is something that you'll probably deeply regret later. Best wishes for your boatbuilding project, Wild. I'm sure it will be a great success. Just start now! :-) You'll be surprised at how easy it is to put a boat together. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Wild, > > It's very simple, you forget about the detailed plan and just start. > You'll find that once you start some kind of magic happens and somehow > (I cannot explain nor do I know why) but things start to fall into > place. Things that help you along, bargains and assistance from > unexpected sources you find things where you do not expect to find > them and so on..... *** But *** you gota start and the sooner you > start the sooner you end. With starting comes the knowledge and you'll > find what you need. > > There's a gotcha though, you really, really have to want it. It's got > to be your passion, it's what your day dreams and doodle's are all > about. It your desire, it's everything that you want. Forget the > girlfriend (if you got one, most likely she'll leave before the > end(probably long before), forget the social life et. al... When > it's like that, you will have the motivation and the inner means to > get your BS36. If you do not feel that way about it, then you need > lots of money but the funny thing is, nearly everyone I know who has > the money to afford to do this, is not. The meticulousness planners > that were all planning there boats 23 years ago when I built mine, are > still all meticulously planning. I've sailing and living on my boat > these last 23 years. The planners they still planning and waiting to > afford to build. > > Me, I could not afford not to build, I could not afford not to sail > and so I did what I needed to do. You want to know what it cost? It > costs everything you have. Everything. > > So how about buying those plans? I believe you have not even done that > yet. So how can you actually even be sure about what you are planing? > > Wild, I wish you well, I really hope that I will meet you out there > one day but the omens are not good but if you really mean it, start. > > > > Now, Paul, without going into philosophical discussion, there is a simple exercise for you: > > > > You want to build Brent's 36 footer from Zero point (no welding and metal working skills, no clue about steel boat building, etc). You have all the time on your hands, found free building site without power, away from steel suppliers and scrap yards. There are no jobs around. You have $3,000 cash. How long will it take for you to build a boat and at what total expense (including EVERYTHING)? I would appreciate if you can give detailed estimate on time and money spent for such project including the source of income ;) > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 27742|26545|2012-02-29 12:04:22|wild_explorer|Re: Project planning|Before I start answering, I would like to give a disclaimer - Nothing personal, no offense to anyone who voice their opinions... Just a discussion... ;) Paul, I agree about attitude part. It DOES make the difference for a project. No questions about that. But... There are several things I disagree... 1. I am hearing advice for the hypothetical example I gave (not my situation) - "Just do it! No matter what!". It is VERY BAD advice. Very similar to the advice "Take your money and go gambling to Vegas! I know people hit Jackpot!". That how many people got broke instead of building the boat. There is a MINIMUM requirements you need to meet before starting boat project - have basic tools, metal for the boat enough to get it on the water, enough welding consumables to bring it to that stage. Finances in the example I gave, is not enough for that. Ones the boat on the water - you can finish it later (details are below). At that stage, you can get very creative if you want to save money. 2. The correct answer is "You should NOT start the project under conditions and with resources/financing you have in that example". However, there are several options if you badly want to have a boat. That where you need to have real business plan... - If you are single, move to the area connected to the ocean. Preferably where you may find job, preferably with big live-aboard community, steel suppliers and scrap yards. Get a job (even swiping a floor in metal shop). Learn to weld. More likely you will find more options... And that where Brent's recommendations will work just fine. - Ones moved to the area, you may find some boat close in price to money you have on hands. At that case, you might just buy it and go sailing ;) - You might find that building some small boat from steel (with available money) might give you practice and possible some profit towards building boat of your dream. - You may trade your help for someone's resources. 3. I completely disagree that you have to give up your life to build a boat. This is an advantage of Origami concept. It faster and gives you more flexibility. I enjoy watching progress of Kim's project. He even has a time to post the pictures with nice descriptions. I found some answers there for questions I have. 4. You do not need to calculate FINAL cost of the boat to the penny, but you need to have an estimate how much money you need to build a boat to a "floating" stage. And that where Brent's recommendations kicks in again. You may actually save money buying primed steel. You may skip painting (enough zinks will allow you stay in the water for a while). You can make wire boxes and fill it with rocks (as temporary ballast) if you do not have money for lead - just do not go sailing with it. You do not need engine right away - just make stern tube for future inboard engine's installation and seal it. You may use outboard engine. No interior needed. Use wood mast/boom. Etc, etc, etc. BUT YOU NEED TO HAVE BUSINESS PLAN, before you start your boat project. That what gives you confidence you will finish your project. Rely on yourself instead of on someone else or someone resources. You do not rely on the help from coast guards at the middle of the ocean. Do you? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Wild, > > It's very simple, you forget about the detailed plan and just start. > You'll find that once you start some kind of magic happens and somehow > (I cannot explain nor do I know why) but things start to fall into > place. Things that help you along, bargains and assistance from > unexpected sources you find things where you do not expect to find > them and so on..... *** But *** you gota start and the sooner you > start the sooner you end. With starting comes the knowledge and you'll > find what you need. > > There's a gotcha though, you really, really have to want it. It's got > to be your passion, it's what your day dreams and doodle's are all > about. It your desire, it's everything that you want. Forget the > girlfriend (if you got one, most likely she'll leave before the > end(probably long before), forget the social life et. al... When > it's like that, you will have the motivation and the inner means to > get your BS36. If you do not feel that way about it, then you need > lots of money but the funny thing is, nearly everyone I know who has > the money to afford to do this, is not. The meticulousness planners > that were all planning there boats 23 years ago when I built mine, are > still all meticulously planning. I've sailing and living on my boat > these last 23 years. The planners they still planning and waiting to > afford to build. | 27743|26545|2012-02-29 12:28:44|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Yep, old industrial equipment is bulletproof. NEW CHEAP inverters have overheat protection (it will just shutdown or stop welding until it cools off). Duty cycle is based on 10 minutes interval. With 20% duty cycle you can weld 2 min from 10 (2 min welding, 8 min cooling). It is plenty of time for boat project. 2 inch of tack weld with 1/8" electrode is about 10-12 sec "On-Arc time"??? In this case operator factor 10% is more important for calculation than equipment's duty cycle. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > When I worked at Great West Steel , we had a cheap Miller buzzbox on the joist production line, which was rated at 20% duty cycle at 225 amps. It ran full time at 225 amps, three shifts, 24 hours a day, and never burned up, nor gave any problem. You have a lot of forgiveness on the rated duty cycle. . > | 27744|26545|2012-02-29 14:40:01|Paul Thompson|Re: Project planning|Wild, The problem is you do not know what your planning for, so your plan will be wrong, no matter how much time and research you may put into to it. I can all but guarantee that what ever you plan for, it will turn out different. Almost everyone responding to this thread is telling you the same thing, "Get started" things will sort them selves out as you go and nearly everyone who's replying has already built or are building a boat. From what I have gathered you have no building experience and little sailing experience. Those are not major stumbling blocks if you really want to get a boat but they are major stumbling blocks if you want detailed planning as you do not really have a clue about what you need to plan for. In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise religiously as you do not know enough to change things. If you had bought the plans, you could now be practising your welding and cutting skills building fittings for your boat in stead of wasting time on this forum. When I started I did not have the money to build but I started, earned, salvaged or was given the needed as I went along. Others saw what I was doing and lent and sometimes gave things I'm grateful to them but they were only able to help me along because I was already doing it, I'd got started. At no time was anyone else paying my way nor did I borrow from any source. I've have own'd my boat free and clear since day one. Regards, Paul Thompson On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 6:04 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > Before I start answering, I would like to give a disclaimer - Nothing personal, no offense to anyone who voice their opinions... Just a discussion... ;) > > Paul, I agree about attitude part. It DOES make the difference for a project. No questions about that. > > But... There are several things I disagree... > > 1. I am hearing advice for the hypothetical example I gave (not my situation) - "Just do it! No matter what!". It is VERY BAD advice. Very similar to the advice "Take your money and go gambling to Vegas! I know people hit Jackpot!". That how many people got broke instead of building the boat. > > There is a MINIMUM requirements you need to meet before starting boat project - have basic tools, metal for the boat enough to get it on the water, enough welding consumables to bring it to that stage. > > Finances in the example I gave, is not enough for that. Ones the boat on the water - you can finish it later (details are below). At that stage, you can get very creative if you want to save money. > > 2. The correct answer is "You should NOT start the project under conditions and with resources/financing you have in that example". > > However, there are several options if you badly want to have a boat. That where you need to have real business plan... > > - If you are single, move to the area connected to the ocean. Preferably where you may find job, preferably with big live-aboard community, steel suppliers and scrap yards. Get a job (even swiping a floor in metal shop). Learn to weld. More likely you will find more options... And that where Brent's recommendations will work just fine. > > - Ones moved to the area, you may find some boat close in price to money you have on hands. At that case, you might just buy it and go sailing ;) > > - You might find that building some small boat from steel (with available money) might give you practice and possible some profit towards building boat of your dream. > > - You may trade your help for someone's resources. > > 3. I completely disagree that you have to give up your life to build a boat. This is an advantage of Origami concept. It faster and gives you more flexibility. I enjoy watching progress of Kim's project. He even has a time to post the pictures with nice descriptions. I found some answers there for questions I have. > > 4. You do not need to calculate FINAL cost of the boat to the penny, but you need to have an estimate how much money you need to build a boat to a "floating" stage. > > And that where Brent's recommendations kicks in again. You may actually save money buying primed steel. You may skip painting (enough zinks will allow you stay in the water for a while). You can make wire boxes and fill it with rocks (as temporary ballast) if you do not have money for lead - just do not go sailing with it. You do not need engine right away - just make stern tube for future inboard engine's installation and seal it. You may use outboard engine. No interior needed. Use wood mast/boom. Etc, etc, etc. > > BUT YOU NEED TO HAVE BUSINESS PLAN, before you start your boat project. That what gives you confidence you will finish your project. Rely on yourself instead of on someone else or someone resources. You do not rely on the help from coast guards at the middle of the ocean. Do you? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> Wild, >> >> It's very simple, you forget about the detailed plan and just start. >> You'll find that once you start some kind of magic happens and somehow >> (I cannot explain nor do I know why) but things start to fall into >> place. Things that help you along, bargains and assistance from >> unexpected sources you find things where you do not expect to find >> them and so on..... *** But *** you gota start and the sooner you >> start the sooner you end. With starting comes the knowledge and you'll >> find what you need. >> >> There's a gotcha though, you really, really have to want it. It's got >> to be your passion, it's what your day dreams and doodle's are all >> about. It your desire, it's everything that you want. Forget the >> girlfriend (if you got one, most likely she'll leave before the >> end(probably long before), forget the social life et. al...   When >> it's like that, you will have the motivation and the inner means to >> get your BS36. If you do not feel that way about it, then you need >> lots of money but the funny thing is, nearly everyone I know who has >> the money to afford to do this, is not. The meticulousness planners >> that were all planning there boats 23 years ago when I built mine, are >> still all meticulously planning. I've sailing and living on my boat >> these last 23 years. The planners they still planning and waiting to >> afford to build. > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 27745|4244|2012-02-29 14:56:50|GP|Re: Pipe Size: Exhaust Temperature, Through-Hulls and Cockpit Drains|Thanks Matt... I have taken a page from Annie Hill Voyaging on a Small Income. My head is composting (no through hulls). Galley and head sink drain into easily emptied plastic containers. Only hole in the boat is for the prop shaft and the above waterline dry exhaust as per Brent set up. ... (nice post...informative Matt).. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Yes pipe size can decrease exhaust pipe temperature. It depends on how large the exhaust back pressure is from the exhaust system. Remember PV = nRT ? Pressure is measured in absolute, temperature in absolute. A 1 PSI over pressure is about 16 PSI instead of 15 PSI for atmospheric. Room temperature in Kelvin is 293K. Water boiling temperature is 373K. If your EGT is 400C, then in Kelvin, that is 673K. Any pipe restriction that increases back pressure will increase temperature. > > At a given (back) pressure, flow rate goes by between the 2.65th and 4th power of the pipe diameter, so 1.5" and 2" pipe are massively different in flow capacity, by a factor of between 2 and 3, depending on the application. So: > > - If 1.5" pipe presented a lot of back pressure, 2" pipe will present a lot less back pressure, and therefore temperature will decrease. > - If the 1.5" pipe was properly sized and there was little back pressure, then going to 2" will make little difference. > > It all depends what exhaust is the right size for your engine. Remember also that 15PSI = 30 feet of water head, or 1 PSI is about 2 feet. If your wet exhaust is forced under the water more, say on one tack, then your EGT will go up. > > Also, some back pressure is generated in a cruiser-desirable exhaust system. "Straight pipes" will offer less back pressure and lower temperature for a given engine/throttle, but will sound like "Straight pipes" -- who wants that on a cruiser. > > Pipe Size on Through Hulls: > > Think of through-hulls as potential holes in the hull. This power effect on diameter is why a 1/2" hole in the hull is a much smaller problem than a 2" hole -- a factor of between 40 and 250. The threshold where a leak is bailable with a bucket is quite sharp when measured in diameter. This is why stuffing things in holes, and keeping wood pegs near through hulls is important. Keep through-hulls and hoses small. Have patience on the sink draining. Doubling the size to have an "instant drain" sink also means a lot less time before the boat sinks if the hose fails near the through-hull. If one has small hoses and through-hulls, one might consider swapping out hoses while the boat is in the water -- using a stopper to plug the pipe for a moment while positioning the new hose. A small through-hull may mean that, during the change-out, it is only cups of water that enter the hull, instead of a buckets. > > Cockpit Drains: > > Cockpit drains are the opposite. Cutting the size of cockpit drains will quickly change the cockpit from a rapidly draining cockpit to a perpetual bathtub. Similarly, increasing the size of the cockpit drains a bit can really make a difference to the rate that the cockpit drains. > > Some cockpit drains have a perforated cover or mesh over them. If you place mesh or perforated covers (with round holes) over the drains, you change it from one big hole to N small holes. Doubling the size of the drain, but keeping the same sized perforations covering the drain will only increase the number of holes by 4, and not really take advantage of the larger drain. Meshed drains drain a lot slower than unmeshed drains. Experiment in your sink at hole. Increasing the cover perforation size from 3/16" to 1/2" means the drain will still not swallow a whistle, eraser or spoon, but it will drain noticably faster, possibly 3-5 times faster. Going to a 2" mesh cover over say a 6" drain pipe out the stern will prevent the escape of most cups, hand-helds and sunglasses through the transom drain and drain a lot quicker than say four grated drains of 1.5 inches each -- what my boat has now. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: aguysailing@... > Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 18:58:19 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: exhaust pipe size > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying a 2 inch pipe will have a lower temperature than a 1.5 inch pipe? > > > > ..thanks > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > > > John, > > > The basic equations for gases state that when a gas expands, it’s temperature will drop proportionately. So a 2” pipe will contain nearly twice as much gas at a lower temperature. Heat gain in the boat is proportional to the differential temperature of the hot gases versus the surrounding air, times the surface area of the pipe, divided by the insulation value (rough explanation). The gain in hot surface area on the pipe is relatively very small, while the volume gain is large. So the fairly large drop in exhaust temperature results in much less heat transferred out of the exhaust. In fact, if you used an entire compartment as the exhaust pipe you’d see a temperature rise of only a couple of degrees! > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > From: jhess314 > > > Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:24 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] exhaust pipe size > > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > Could you further explain why the temperature of 2" pipe would be different from 1-1/2" pipe? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > John > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > Make sure your riser is high enough, as close to deck level as is safe. On long straight runs you can snap that pre formed sheet metal chimney pipe over the insulation. > > > > When I asked my father, a lifetime steam engineer, what kind of difference in temperature going from a 1 1/2 inch to a 2 inch pipe would make, he said " A huge difference." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27746|4244|2012-02-29 15:06:16|GP|Re: Dry Exhaust|Brent... I was up at Redden in CR and bought "Hot shield mini" (not the one at the Quinsom Hotel). The label says: Foil backed High Temperature 950 degrees fibreglass muffler/manifold wrap. (made in China). I will double wrap the pipes with this on top of house insulation. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I insulated my dry exhaust with fibreglass house insulation, covered with the cloth like 3 inch wide muffler tape. This, I covered with common caulking gun silicone. After days of motoring in the tropics , it is cool to the touch. The tape alone is not enough, the fibreglass makes all the difference. On 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe the end result is roughly 4 inches in diameter. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > I am putting in dry exhaust on a 4 cyl 54 hp LE 1 Isuzu. The exhaust pipe will be bound with insulating material (large roll, white cloth like material). It will be about 2 to 3 inches from the bottom and side of my diesel tank (painted mild steel). I have been told that diesel has a high tolerance for indirect heat but I thought I would seek out opinion here for this installation. (Please see comment below) > > > > thanks... Gary > > > > "ABYC P-1 requires that the insulated surface temperature of a dry exhaust be limited to a maximum 200 �F (93 �C), which is well below diesel fuel's Autoignition temperature � 410 �F (210 �C)." > > __________________ > > > | 27747|26545|2012-02-29 16:04:34|Darren Bos|Re: Project planning|Not that Wild needs any defence, but I think he's got the right idea. Most folks (even Origami builders) spend a year or more dreaming before they get started building. However, there are different ways to dream. Some just think wishfully, have a pile a steel delivered and years later find out that it was too much for them. Even Origamiboats suffer this fate. Others dream with explicit plans, develop the necessary skills and enter the project with a budget, a TIMELINE and many of the necessary skills. Things will still go sideways, but less so and there is a much better chance of success. There is more than one way to skin a boat. I have no doubt Wild will build his boat, that he will do so with far less trepidation and be more satisfied with the decisions he's made as a result of an explicit (if sometimes wandering) planning process. I think what matters is that you choose a date to go, write it on the calender with big block letters, and then work to it. Darren At 11:39 AM 29/02/2012, you wrote: > > >Wild, > >The problem is you do not know what your planning for, so your plan >will be wrong, no matter how much time and research you may put into >to it. I can all but guarantee that what ever you plan for, it will >turn out different. > >Almost everyone responding to this thread is telling you the same >thing, "Get started" things will sort them selves out as you go and >nearly everyone who's replying has already built or are building a >boat. From what I have gathered you have no building experience and >little sailing experience. Those are not major stumbling blocks if you >really want to get a boat but they are major stumbling blocks if you >want detailed planning as you do not really have a clue about what you >need to plan for. > >In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had >been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. >BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if >you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more >likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz >box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second >hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to >sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you >could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder >but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise >religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > >If you had bought the plans, you could now be practising your welding >and cutting skills building fittings for your boat in stead of wasting >time on this forum. When I started I did not have the money to build >but I started, earned, salvaged or was given the needed as I went >along. Others saw what I was doing and lent and sometimes gave things >I'm grateful to them but they were only able to help me along because >I was already doing it, I'd got started. At no time was anyone else >paying my way nor did I borrow from any source. I've have own'd my >boat free and clear since day one. > >Regards, > >Paul Thompson > >On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 6:04 AM, wild_explorer ><williswildest@...> wrote: > > Before I start answering, I would like to > give a disclaimer - Nothing personal, no > offense to anyone who voice their opinions... Just a discussion... ;) > > > > Paul, I agree about attitude part. It DOES > make the difference for a project. No questions about that. > > > > But... There are several things I disagree... > > > > 1. I am hearing advice for the hypothetical > example I gave (not my situation) - "Just do > it! No matter what!". It is VERY BAD advice. > Very similar to the advice "Take your money and > go gambling to Vegas! I know people hit > Jackpot!". That how many people got broke instead of building the boat. > > > > There is a MINIMUM requirements you need to > meet before starting boat project - have basic > tools, metal for the boat enough to get it on > the water, enough welding consumables to bring it to that stage. > > > > Finances in the example I gave, is not enough > for that. Ones the boat on the water - you can > finish it later (details are below). At that > stage, you can get very creative if you want to save money. > > > > 2. The correct answer is "You should NOT > start the project under conditions and with > resources/financing you have in that example". > > > > However, there are several options if you > badly want to have a boat. That where you need to have real business plan... > > > > - If you are single, move to the area > connected to the ocean. Preferably where you > may find job, preferably with big live-aboard > community, steel suppliers and scrap yards. Get > a job (even swiping a floor in metal shop). > Learn to weld. More likely you will find more > options... And that where Brent's recommendations will work just fine. > > > > - Ones moved to the area, you may find some > boat close in price to money you have on hands. > At that case, you might just buy it and go sailing ;) > > > > - You might find that building some small > boat from steel (with available money) might > give you practice and possible some profit towards building boat of your dream. > > > > - You may trade your help for someone's resources. > > > > 3. I completely disagree that you have to > give up your life to build a boat. This is an > advantage of Origami concept. It faster and > gives you more flexibility. I enjoy watching > progress of Kim's project. He even has a time > to post the pictures with nice descriptions. I > found some answers there for questions I have. > > > > 4. You do not need to calculate FINAL cost of > the boat to the penny, but you need to have an > estimate how much money you need to build a boat to a "floating" stage. > > > > And that where Brent's recommendations kicks > in again. You may actually save money buying > primed steel. You may skip painting (enough > zinks will allow you stay in the water for a > while). You can make wire boxes and fill it > with rocks (as temporary ballast) if you do not > have money for lead - just do not go sailing > with it. You do not need engine right away - > just make stern tube for future inboard > engine's installation and seal it. You may use > outboard engine. No interior needed. Use wood mast/boom. Etc, etc, etc. > > > > BUT YOU NEED TO HAVE BUSINESS PLAN, before > you start your boat project. That what gives > you confidence you will finish your project. > Rely on yourself instead of on someone else or > someone resources. You do not rely on the help > from coast guards at the middle of the ocean. Do you? > > > > --- In > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > Paul Thompson wrote: > >> > >> Wild, > >> > >> It's very simple, you forget about the detailed plan and just start. > >> You'll find that once you start some kind of magic happens and somehow > >> (I cannot explain nor do I know why) but things start to fall into > >> place. Things that help you along, bargains and assistance from > >> unexpected sources you find things where you do not expect to find > >> them and so on..... *** But *** you gota start and the sooner you > >> start the sooner you end. With starting comes the knowledge and you'll > >> find what you need. > >> > >> There's a gotcha though, you really, really have to want it. It's got > >> to be your passion, it's what your day dreams and doodle's are all > >> about. It your desire, it's everything that you want. Forget the > >> girlfriend (if you got one, most likely she'll leave before the > >> end(probably long before), forget the social life et. al... When > >> it's like that, you will have the motivation and the inner means to > >> get your BS36. If you do not feel that way about it, then you need > >> lots of money but the funny thing is, nearly everyone I know who has > >> the money to afford to do this, is not. The meticulousness planners > >> that were all planning there boats 23 years ago when I built mine, are > >> still all meticulously planning. I've sailing and living on my boat > >> these last 23 years. The planners they still planning and waiting to > >> afford to build. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it > to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > >-- >Regards, > >Paul Thompson > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27748|27731|2012-02-29 16:25:45|Stan Philippon|Re: The BS Chimney Flail|If you have a metal flue pipe I would suggest that you avoid any sharp corners on the flail chain (such as chunks of file) since the tin will cut easily at the best of times and even faster if it is a couple years old. ---Stan At 07:15 PM 28/02/2012, you wrote: > > >Brent >We did the same thing on the farm when I was >growing. Instead of a chain we used a chicken! >James > >--- On Tue, 2/28/12, brentswain38 ><brentswain38@...> wrote: > >From: brentswain38 ><brentswain38@...> >Subject: [origamiboats] The BS Chimney Flail >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Received: Tuesday, February 28, 2012, 5:43 PM > > > >After having welded up all kinds of chimney >scrapers to try get the hardened creosote out, >all of which had a tendency to jam, I invented >the BS chimney flail. Works flawlessly. I welded >the centre of an 8 inch long piece of chain to >the end of a rod. I put the rod in my stove pipe >, chain end down, and put the electric drill on >the other end. When I fired up the drill, the >chain spun around like a chain flail, and >flailed the creosote off quickly. Zero chance of >it jamming ,as it goes instantly limp when I >stop the drill.Make sure you only start the >drill while the chain is in the stove pipe. >Tire chains have hardened bits welded to it, >which would make it even more effective. I have >some old files I may cut up and weld bits of on >the chain. I used 1/4 inch rod, which works ,but >may upgrade to 3/8th oil tempered steel, now that I know the principle works. > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27749|27731|2012-02-29 16:37:16|brentswain38|Re: The BS Chimney Flail|Using the chicken would eliminate that problem, as long as the chicken's toenails are clipped. I don't use nor recommend thin tin for chimneys, just 14 gauge or thicker type 316 stainless from the scrapyard above deck, and titanium below decks. Not much chance of tearing that. For thinner stove pipes, slightly dulling the corners would eliminate any chance of tearing anything, altho pulp mill scrap stainless is cheaper and better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Stan Philippon wrote: > > If you have a metal flue pipe I would suggest > that you avoid any sharp corners on the flail > chain (such as chunks of file) since the tin will > cut easily at the best of times and even faster if it is a couple years old. > ---Stan > > > At 07:15 PM 28/02/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Brent > >We did the same thing on the farm when I was > >growing. Instead of a chain we used a chicken! > >James > > > >--- On Tue, 2/28/12, brentswain38 > ><brentswain38@...> wrote: > > > >From: brentswain38 > ><brentswain38@...> > >Subject: [origamiboats] The BS Chimney Flail > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Received: Tuesday, February 28, 2012, 5:43 PM > > > > > > > >After having welded up all kinds of chimney > >scrapers to try get the hardened creosote out, > >all of which had a tendency to jam, I invented > >the BS chimney flail. Works flawlessly. I welded > >the centre of an 8 inch long piece of chain to > >the end of a rod. I put the rod in my stove pipe > >, chain end down, and put the electric drill on > >the other end. When I fired up the drill, the > >chain spun around like a chain flail, and > >flailed the creosote off quickly. Zero chance of > >it jamming ,as it goes instantly limp when I > >stop the drill.Make sure you only start the > >drill while the chain is in the stove pipe. > >Tire chains have hardened bits welded to it, > >which would make it even more effective. I have > >some old files I may cut up and weld bits of on > >the chain. I used 1/4 inch rod, which works ,but > >may upgrade to 3/8th oil tempered steel, now that I know the principle works. > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27750|4244|2012-02-29 16:44:19|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust|I think if i was installing a new engine , I would clean it well, degrease it, and give her several more coats of paint. They come with only a light coat of engine enamel, nowhere near enough to prevent corrosion. I put some epoxy tar on mine, where it was rusting, and it stuck like shit to a blanket, looks plastic coated. Wish I had epoxied the whole engine. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Brent... I was up at Redden in CR and bought "Hot shield mini" (not the one at the Quinsom Hotel). The label says: Foil backed High Temperature 950 degrees fibreglass muffler/manifold wrap. (made in China). I will double wrap the pipes with this on top of house insulation. > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I insulated my dry exhaust with fibreglass house insulation, covered with the cloth like 3 inch wide muffler tape. This, I covered with common caulking gun silicone. After days of motoring in the tropics , it is cool to the touch. The tape alone is not enough, the fibreglass makes all the difference. On 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe the end result is roughly 4 inches in diameter. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > > > I am putting in dry exhaust on a 4 cyl 54 hp LE 1 Isuzu. The exhaust pipe will be bound with insulating material (large roll, white cloth like material). It will be about 2 to 3 inches from the bottom and side of my diesel tank (painted mild steel). I have been told that diesel has a high tolerance for indirect heat but I thought I would seek out opinion here for this installation. (Please see comment below) > > > > > > thanks... Gary > > > > > > "ABYC P-1 requires that the insulated surface temperature of a dry exhaust be limited to a maximum 200 �F (93 �C), which is well below diesel fuel's Autoignition temperature � 410 �F (210 �C)." > > > __________________ > > > > > > | 27751|26545|2012-02-29 17:17:35|wild_explorer|Re: Project planning|Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. | 27752|27752|2012-02-29 17:53:58|IAN CAMPBELL|This months SAIL magazine...Comox|Sail magazined has a spread on Desolation Sound and a close up photo of probably a Brent Swain boat close to the walkway....T [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27753|26545|2012-02-29 18:04:40|martin demers|Re: Project planning|My experience in boat building yet; I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view Martin, sailor on the hard To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27754|27754|2012-02-29 20:26:11|GP|Not boat related ...but|This is about cell phone cost ..please pass by if not interested. .. Thanks. Just wondering if anyone out there has found a pay as you go cell phone service that does not cost an arm and a leg. I bought a cheapie cell phone and used Bell as a pay as you go provider. Problem is the rate seems so high I seem to get very few calls before being prompted to "top up" pay again message. Gary| 27755|26545|2012-02-29 21:44:16|wild_explorer|Re: Project planning|You might consider selling gas-powered welder (if you would not loose too much money) and buy 110/220V MIG welder for welding with flux core wire. Idea what amperage you need: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/calculators/mig_flux_amperage_calculator.php I checked reviews on Harbor Freight MIG welders - not good. May be someone have hands-on experience to share. It would be safe to buy brand names like Lincon, Miller, may be Hobart. Some price idea: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/equipment/mig-Welders/Pages/mig-welders.aspx http://www.hobartwelders.com/products/wirefeed/ P.S. Recently I took a look on someone's pre-owned small steel boat project (about 12 ft) and I could not resist to weld on it. It was need to re-plate the bottom, which was already cut-out. I blew couples of holes in old metal with 1/8" E7018 @ 95A. No problem on new metal with E7018 @ 120A. After talking, we came to a conclusion that to build similar boat in origami could be more economical and faster, than to buy and repair old one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > My experience in boat building yet; > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > | 27756|26545|2012-02-29 22:11:06|martin demers|Re: Project planning|Like I said they dont have 220V and I will definitely stick to stick welding for this kind of job. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 02:44:14 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning You might consider selling gas-powered welder (if you would not loose too much money) and buy 110/220V MIG welder for welding with flux core wire. Idea what amperage you need: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/calculators/mig_flux_amperage_calculator.php I checked reviews on Harbor Freight MIG welders - not good. May be someone have hands-on experience to share. It would be safe to buy brand names like Lincon, Miller, may be Hobart. Some price idea: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/equipment/mig-Welders/Pages/mig-welders.aspx http://www.hobartwelders.com/products/wirefeed/ P.S. Recently I took a look on someone's pre-owned small steel boat project (about 12 ft) and I could not resist to weld on it. It was need to re-plate the bottom, which was already cut-out. I blew couples of holes in old metal with 1/8" E7018 @ 95A. No problem on new metal with E7018 @ 120A. After talking, we came to a conclusion that to build similar boat in origami could be more economical and faster, than to buy and repair old one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > My experience in boat building yet; > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27757|26545|2012-02-29 22:44:16|wild_explorer|Re: Project planning|You just made me think WHAT IF i do not have 220V. So I checked again what dual voltage (110/220V) units capable to output at 110V. Not bad, but it comes with a price ;)) For used 230V equipment there are much more choices, but you cannot use it at 110V. I agree, that in most cases it is better to stick with a stick for steel size ~ 1/8" and up. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Like I said they dont have 220V and I will definitely stick to stick welding for this kind of job. > > Martin. > | 27758|26545|2012-03-01 01:07:51|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Project planning|Martin, If you are in the US, then of course they DO have 220. What they don't have is 220 volt receptacles. With a volt meter and a length of wire you could probably identify two fairly close together 110 volt receptacles that you could tap with two cord ends to provide you with 220 volt power. The receptacles would be on opposite phases of the 110/220 volt line. Gary H. Lucas -----Original Message----- From: martin demers Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning Like I said they dont have 220V and I will definitely stick to stick welding for this kind of job. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 02:44:14 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning You might consider selling gas-powered welder (if you would not loose too much money) and buy 110/220V MIG welder for welding with flux core wire. Idea what amperage you need: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/calculators/mig_flux_amperage_calculator.php I checked reviews on Harbor Freight MIG welders - not good. May be someone have hands-on experience to share. It would be safe to buy brand names like Lincon, Miller, may be Hobart. Some price idea: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/equipment/mig-Welders/Pages/mig-welders.aspx http://www.hobartwelders.com/products/wirefeed/ P.S. Recently I took a look on someone's pre-owned small steel boat project (about 12 ft) and I could not resist to weld on it. It was need to re-plate the bottom, which was already cut-out. I blew couples of holes in old metal with 1/8" E7018 @ 95A. No problem on new metal with E7018 @ 120A. After talking, we came to a conclusion that to build similar boat in origami could be more economical and faster, than to buy and repair old one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > My experience in boat building yet; > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap > price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and > had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do > that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable > price) > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have > 220V so I bought a gas welder. > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the > week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the > marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont > have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is > raining...no comments... > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ | 27759|26545|2012-03-01 07:31:56|Matt Malone|Re: Project planning|There are all sorts of 220V plug styles in the US. Electric kitchen stoves and clothes dryers use two of them. I can only imagine that in your area Gary, these appliances are required to be directly wired into the house ? If so, it is uncommon. The home despot sells 220V outlets. You just need a wire from your main panel, and probably an electrician. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gary.lucas@... > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 01:09:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > Martin, > If you are in the US, then of course they DO have 220. What they don't have > is 220 volt receptacles. With a volt meter and a length of wire you could > probably identify two fairly close together 110 volt receptacles that you > could tap with two cord ends to provide you with 220 volt power. The > receptacles would be on opposite phases of the 110/220 volt line. > > Gary H. Lucas > > -----Original Message----- > From: martin demers > Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:11 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > Like I said they dont have 220V and I will definitely stick to stick welding > for this kind of job. > > Martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 02:44:14 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > You might consider selling gas-powered welder (if you would not loose too > much money) and buy 110/220V MIG welder for welding with flux core wire. > > Idea what amperage you need: > > http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/calculators/mig_flux_amperage_calculator.php > > I checked reviews on Harbor Freight MIG welders - not good. May be someone > have hands-on experience to share. > > It would be safe to buy brand names like Lincon, Miller, may be Hobart. Some > price idea: > > http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/equipment/mig-Welders/Pages/mig-welders.aspx > > http://www.hobartwelders.com/products/wirefeed/ > > P.S. Recently I took a look on someone's pre-owned small steel boat project > (about 12 ft) and I could not resist to weld on it. It was need to re-plate > the bottom, which was already cut-out. I blew couples of holes in old metal > with 1/8" E7018 @ 95A. No problem on new metal with E7018 @ 120A. After > talking, we came to a conclusion that to build similar boat in origami could > be more economical and faster, than to buy and repair old one. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap > > price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and > > had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do > > that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable > > price) > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have > > 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the > > week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the > > marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont > > have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is > > raining...no comments... > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27760|26545|2012-03-01 11:39:42|wild_explorer|Re: Project planning|In "equipment choosing" discussion and after reading several posts about possibility to get 230V out of two 115V plugs I tried to find how to do it. There are several problems with it. If I remember correctly: - regular 115V outlet has only 15A rating (with matching breaker). There are 20A outlets, but they are not so common. - Even if you can tap-in into 2 115V outlets and get 230V, you still have only 15A (breaker limit). For old equipment you need about 30A. - 230V requires double (joined) breaker which kills 2 hot wires at the same time. Getting power from 2 115V outlets, in case of equipment failure, it might trip only 1 breaker (separate 115V breakers) and keep equipment "hot". - equipment should NOT be grounded (safety ground) trough power cable (need separate cable for safety ground). May be someone could gives us schematics and show safe way to do it... So, you really have only very limited choice: - inverter with double voltage 110-115/220-230V able to run on low input amperage (15A). Means limited output amperage. - gas/diesel power generator with 230V output or generator-welder (about 6KW output). Both solutions are expensive. You may find relatively cheap generator, but you need to add operating cost (fuel cost about 1 Gallon/hr). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Martin, > If you are in the US, then of course they DO have 220. What they don't have > is 220 volt receptacles. With a volt meter and a length of wire you could > probably identify two fairly close together 110 volt receptacles that you > could tap with two cord ends to provide you with 220 volt power. The > receptacles would be on opposite phases of the 110/220 volt line. > > Gary H. Lucas | 27761|26545|2012-03-01 13:39:17|martin demers|Re: Project planning|At this marina they wont let me do that, Too much trouble for them! They dont like to have someone , on their property, with a long term project. Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gary.lucas@... > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 01:09:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > Martin, > If you are in the US, then of course they DO have 220. What they don't have > is 220 volt receptacles. With a volt meter and a length of wire you could > probably identify two fairly close together 110 volt receptacles that you > could tap with two cord ends to provide you with 220 volt power. The > receptacles would be on opposite phases of the 110/220 volt line. > > Gary H. Lucas > > -----Original Message----- > From: martin demers > Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:11 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > Like I said they dont have 220V and I will definitely stick to stick welding > for this kind of job. > > Martin. > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 02:44:14 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > You might consider selling gas-powered welder (if you would not loose too > much money) and buy 110/220V MIG welder for welding with flux core wire. > > Idea what amperage you need: > > http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/calculators/mig_flux_amperage_calculator.php > > I checked reviews on Harbor Freight MIG welders - not good. May be someone > have hands-on experience to share. > > It would be safe to buy brand names like Lincon, Miller, may be Hobart. Some > price idea: > > http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/equipment/mig-Welders/Pages/mig-welders.aspx > > http://www.hobartwelders.com/products/wirefeed/ > > P.S. Recently I took a look on someone's pre-owned small steel boat project > (about 12 ft) and I could not resist to weld on it. It was need to re-plate > the bottom, which was already cut-out. I blew couples of holes in old metal > with 1/8" E7018 @ 95A. No problem on new metal with E7018 @ 120A. After > talking, we came to a conclusion that to build similar boat in origami could > be more economical and faster, than to buy and repair old one. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap > > price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and > > had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do > > that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable > > price) > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have > > 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the > > week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the > > marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont > > have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is > > raining...no comments... > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27762|26545|2012-03-01 14:52:13|wild_explorer|Re: Project planning|Martin is absolutely right. I talked to several marina's harbor masters and first questions were: - how long will you project take? - how many days per week will you be working? - how much noise will you create? - what would you be doing? When you say WELDING, that raise red flag right away (fire hazard, smoke, nose (grinding, banging, etc). Possible overload of electrical system. More likely harbor master will offer you to rent some shop area if it is available (separate from other businesses because of fire hazard). Not cheap! Most marinas do not allow any welding in a slip at all. You REALLY DO NOT WANT to make live-aboard's and harbor master your enemies... You will end up with your project on hands with no place to go in no time ;( --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > At this marina they wont let me do that, > Too much trouble for them! > They dont like to have someone , on their property, with a long term project. > > Martin | 27763|26545|2012-03-01 15:15:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Project planning|I remember in BC a few marinas that had sheds with long term builders. Some of the builders abandoned their projects and the marinas were left with no pay, a half finished hull worth nothing and a big mess to get rid of.... Some of the marinas in NZ don't allow any power tools, laundry in the rigging, any noise or anything on the dock beside your boat. They want boats to be seen but not used. I always love the messy marinas and messy occupants with the odd eccentric living aboard. Much more interesting. Paul On 2/03/2012 8:52 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Martin is absolutely right. I talked to several marina's harbor > masters and first questions were: > > - how long will you project take? > - how many days per week will you be working? > - how much noise will you create? > - what would you be doing? > > When you say WELDING, that raise red flag right away (fire hazard, > smoke, nose (grinding, banging, etc). Possible overload of electrical > system. More likely harbor master will offer you to rent some shop > area if it is available (separate from other businesses because of > fire hazard). Not cheap! > > Most marinas do not allow any welding in a slip at all. > > You REALLY DO NOT WANT to make live-aboard's and harbor master your > enemies... You will end up with your project on hands with no place to > go in no time ;( > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , martin demers > wrote: > > > > At this marina they wont let me do that, > > Too much trouble for them! > > They dont like to have someone , on their property, with a long term > project. > > > > Martin > > | 27764|26545|2012-03-01 15:30:36|martin demers|Re: Project planning|Worst: not only welding but also sandblasting...lol Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:52:10 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning Martin is absolutely right. I talked to several marina's harbor masters and first questions were: - how long will you project take? - how many days per week will you be working? - how much noise will you create? - what would you be doing? When you say WELDING, that raise red flag right away (fire hazard, smoke, nose (grinding, banging, etc). Possible overload of electrical system. More likely harbor master will offer you to rent some shop area if it is available (separate from other businesses because of fire hazard). Not cheap! Most marinas do not allow any welding in a slip at all. You REALLY DO NOT WANT to make live-aboard's and harbor master your enemies... You will end up with your project on hands with no place to go in no time ;( --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > At this marina they wont let me do that, > Too much trouble for them! > They dont like to have someone , on their property, with a long term project. > > Martin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27765|27754|2012-03-01 17:03:25|Barney Treadway|Re: Not boat related ...but|One of the nicest deals I've found is wifi calling that some providers are offering. Certain phones and networks offer it and some make it so you don't use up any minutes. Jump on any wifi connection and make calls as normal. Its pretty sweet to be deep in Costa Rica and be making calls without any roaming or even minutes being used. I'm on an android phone with tmobile now and they offer it but you use your minutes, my blackberry from a couple years back used tmobile but didn't use minutes. On 2/29/2012 6:26 PM, GP wrote: > > This is about cell phone cost ..please pass by if not interested. .. > Thanks. > > Just wondering if anyone out there has found a pay as you go cell > phone service that does not cost an arm and a leg. I bought a cheapie > cell phone and used Bell as a pay as you go provider. Problem is the > rate seems so high I seem to get very few calls before being prompted > to "top up" pay again message. > > Gary > > -- ---- Barney Treadway www.ecomshare.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27766|26545|2012-03-01 17:22:33|Darren Bos|Re: Project planning|Wild, 220V (often more like 240V) at 15A provides around 3000 Watts power. That's getting close to enough power to weld 1/4" steel if you use a high efficiency inverter welder. Although inverter welders are a little more to begin with, when you consider the wring costs for transformer welder, the inverters generally turn out cheaper. As an example, a Thermal Arc 161 s Tig/Stick welder is about $650. You could get a buzzbox for half that. But $300 buys surprisingly little heavy gauge wire, and you wouldn't get the better performance of the inverter welder or the flexibility of 110/220V operation. Two 110V outlets wouldn't be what you want to do for a permanent setup and shouldn't be tried by anyone who is not very comfortable with AC. But for quick repairs in awkward locations it could be just the trick. It does of course have the problem that if you throw just one circuit breaker the equipment remains hot. But as long as you don't take the case off while things are still plugged in is there a problem? Darren At 08:39 AM 01/03/2012, you wrote: > > >In "equipment choosing" discussion and after >reading several posts about possibility to get >230V out of two 115V plugs I tried to find how >to do it. There are several problems with it. > >If I remember correctly: > >- regular 115V outlet has only 15A rating (with >matching breaker). There are 20A outlets, but they are not so common. >- Even if you can tap-in into 2 115V outlets and >get 230V, you still have only 15A (breaker >limit). For old equipment you need about 30A. >- 230V requires double (joined) breaker which >kills 2 hot wires at the same time. Getting >power from 2 115V outlets, in case of equipment >failure, it might trip only 1 breaker (separate >115V breakers) and keep equipment "hot". >- equipment should NOT be grounded (safety >ground) trough power cable (need separate cable for safety ground). > >May be someone could gives us schematics and show safe way to do it... > >So, you really have only very limited choice: > >- inverter with double voltage 110-115/220-230V >able to run on low input amperage (15A). Means limited output amperage. >- gas/diesel power generator with 230V output or >generator-welder (about 6KW output). > >Both solutions are expensive. You may find >relatively cheap generator, but you need to add >operating cost (fuel cost about 1 Gallon/hr). > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >"Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Martin, > > If you are in the US, then of course they DO > have 220. What they don't have > > is 220 volt receptacles. With a volt meter and a length of wire you could > > probably identify two fairly close together 110 volt receptacles that you > > could tap with two cord ends to provide you with 220 volt power. The > > receptacles would be on opposite phases of the 110/220 volt line. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27767|27754|2012-03-01 17:29:04|Darren Bos|Re: Not boat related ...but|Android phones work great this way. I get service from Wind Mobile. Incoming calls are free and outgoing calls can be made with Skype etc if I happen to be in range of an open wifi connection. The dialer on my phone just asks me whether I want to use skype or the regular cell connection. I leave the data connection (3g) on my phone turned off unless I need it so there is no chance of an application using minutes without me knowing. Darren At 02:03 PM 01/03/2012, you wrote: > > >One of the nicest deals I've found is wifi calling that some providers >are offering. Certain phones and networks offer it and some make it so >you don't use up any minutes. Jump on any wifi connection and make calls >as normal. Its pretty sweet to be deep in Costa Rica and be making calls >without any roaming or even minutes being used. I'm on an android phone >with tmobile now and they offer it but you use your minutes, my >blackberry from a couple years back used tmobile but didn't use minutes. > >On 2/29/2012 6:26 PM, GP wrote: > > > > This is about cell phone cost ..please pass by if not interested. .. > > Thanks. > > > > Just wondering if anyone out there has found a pay as you go cell > > phone service that does not cost an arm and a leg. I bought a cheapie > > cell phone and used Bell as a pay as you go provider. Problem is the > > rate seems so high I seem to get very few calls before being prompted > > to "top up" pay again message. > > > > Gary > > > > > >-- >---- >Barney Treadway >www.ecomshare.com > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27768|26545|2012-03-01 18:01:47|wild_explorer|Re: Project planning|Two 110/115V outlets could be a VERY SHORT TERM solution and ONLY IF you get permission from the owner (house or business). NOT as permanent solution. As long as you know what to expect.... You do not want to burn someone property... Fire department WILL find improper use of your equipment without proper electrical connection and will blame you for all damages. If you run business, it is the shortest way to go bankrupt. Not many people will bother properly ground the equipment. If only one 110/115V breaker trips, there is a POSSIBILITY that the case of the equipment MAY BE "hot". Under damp/wet conditions you may get electrocuted just by TOUCHING the case of the equipment. So, you need to be VERY CAREFUL using such connections and understand what danger you may face using it. Better to be safe than sorry. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > > Two 110V outlets wouldn't be what you want to do > for a permanent setup and shouldn't be tried by > anyone who is not very comfortable with AC. But > for quick repairs in awkward locations it could > be just the trick. It does of course have the > problem that if you throw just one circuit > breaker the equipment remains hot. But as long > as you don't take the case off while things are > still plugged in is there a problem? > > Darren > > > At 08:39 AM 01/03/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >In "equipment choosing" discussion and after > >reading several posts about possibility to get > >230V out of two 115V plugs I tried to find how > >to do it. There are several problems with it. > > > >If I remember correctly: > > > >- regular 115V outlet has only 15A rating (with > >matching breaker). There are 20A outlets, but they are not so common. > >- Even if you can tap-in into 2 115V outlets and > >get 230V, you still have only 15A (breaker > >limit). For old equipment you need about 30A. > >- 230V requires double (joined) breaker which > >kills 2 hot wires at the same time. Getting > >power from 2 115V outlets, in case of equipment > >failure, it might trip only 1 breaker (separate > >115V breakers) and keep equipment "hot". > >- equipment should NOT be grounded (safety > >ground) trough power cable (need separate cable for safety ground). > > > >May be someone could gives us schematics and show safe way to do it... > > > >So, you really have only very limited choice: > > > >- inverter with double voltage 110-115/220-230V > >able to run on low input amperage (15A). Means limited output amperage. > >- gas/diesel power generator with 230V output or > >generator-welder (about 6KW output). > > > >Both solutions are expensive. You may find > >relatively cheap generator, but you need to add > >operating cost (fuel cost about 1 Gallon/hr). > > | 27769|26545|2012-03-01 21:36:55|Darren Bos|Re: Project planning|Wild, I think you are wrong about the case being hot. 220V and 110V both use the same ground, a properly wired 220V plug from two 110V leads will still have a functional ground and a properly wired welding machine will have contact with that ground through the case. So even if you throw one breaker you still have a grounded case. I do agree that this is something the requires thought, caution and shouldn't be attempted if the risks are not well understood. Darren At 03:01 PM 01/03/2012, you wrote: > > >Two 110/115V outlets could be a VERY SHORT TERM >solution and ONLY IF you get permission from the >owner (house or business). NOT as permanent >solution. As long as you know what to expect.... > >You do not want to burn someone property... Fire >department WILL find improper use of your >equipment without proper electrical connection >and will blame you for all damages. If you run >business, it is the shortest way to go bankrupt. > >Not many people will bother properly ground the >equipment. If only one 110/115V breaker trips, >there is a POSSIBILITY that the case of the >equipment MAY BE "hot". Under damp/wet >conditions you may get electrocuted just by TOUCHING the case of the equipment. > >So, you need to be VERY CAREFUL using such >connections and understand what danger you may >face using it. Better to be safe than sorry. > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > > > Two 110V outlets wouldn't be what you want to do > > for a permanent setup and shouldn't be tried by > > anyone who is not very comfortable with AC. But > > for quick repairs in awkward locations it could > > be just the trick. It does of course have the > > problem that if you throw just one circuit > > breaker the equipment remains hot. But as long > > as you don't take the case off while things are > > still plugged in is there a problem? > > > > Darren > > > > > > At 08:39 AM 01/03/2012, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >In "equipment choosing" discussion and after > > >reading several posts about possibility to get > > >230V out of two 115V plugs I tried to find how > > >to do it. There are several problems with it. > > > > > >If I remember correctly: > > > > > >- regular 115V outlet has only 15A rating (with > > >matching breaker). There are 20A outlets, but they are not so common. > > >- Even if you can tap-in into 2 115V outlets and > > >get 230V, you still have only 15A (breaker > > >limit). For old equipment you need about 30A. > > >- 230V requires double (joined) breaker which > > >kills 2 hot wires at the same time. Getting > > >power from 2 115V outlets, in case of equipment > > >failure, it might trip only 1 breaker (separate > > >115V breakers) and keep equipment "hot". > > >- equipment should NOT be grounded (safety > > >ground) trough power cable (need separate cable for safety ground). > > > > > >May be someone could gives us schematics and show safe way to do it... > > > > > >So, you really have only very limited choice: > > > > > >- inverter with double voltage 110-115/220-230V > > >able to run on low input amperage (15A). Means limited output amperage. > > >- gas/diesel power generator with 230V output or > > >generator-welder (about 6KW output). > > > > > >Both solutions are expensive. You may find > > >relatively cheap generator, but you need to add > > >operating cost (fuel cost about 1 Gallon/hr). > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27770|26545|2012-03-01 22:57:10|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Project planning|Why would U say they don't have 220V receptacles in the USA?? Of course they do?? Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 01:09:53 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning Martin, If you are in the US, then of course they DO have 220. What they don't have is 220 volt receptacles. With a volt meter and a length of wire you could probably identify two fairly close together 110 volt receptacles that you could tap with two cord ends to provide you with 220 volt power. The receptacles would be on opposite phases of the 110/220 volt line. Gary H. Lucas -----Original Message----- From: martin demers Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning Like I said they dont have 220V and I will definitely stick to stick welding for this kind of job. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 02:44:14 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning You might consider selling gas-powered welder (if you would not loose too much money) and buy 110/220V MIG welder for welding with flux core wire. Idea what amperage you need: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/calculators/mig_flux_amperage_calculator.php I checked reviews on Harbor Freight MIG welders - not good. May be someone have hands-on experience to share. It would be safe to buy brand names like Lincon, Miller, may be Hobart. Some price idea: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/equipment/mig-Welders/Pages/mig-welders.aspx http://www.hobartwelders.com/products/wirefeed/ P.S. Recently I took a look on someone's pre-owned small steel boat project (about 12 ft) and I could not resist to weld on it. It was need to re-plate the bottom, which was already cut-out. I blew couples of holes in old metal with 1/8" E7018 @ 95A. No problem on new metal with E7018 @ 120A. After talking, we came to a conclusion that to build similar boat in origami could be more economical and faster, than to buy and repair old one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > My experience in boat building yet; > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap > price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and > had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do > that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable > price) > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have > 220V so I bought a gas welder. > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the > week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the > marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont > have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is > raining...no comments... > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 27771|26545|2012-03-02 08:51:59|scott|Re: Project planning|I have a Lincoln 220 stick welder and for years I used a long heavy extension cable that I built to plug into dryer outlets in the places we rented. I bought the end that the welder would plug into for one end of the cable and one that would fit the dryer plug for the other end. not that expensive. You can pick up all you need at home depot or lowes most of the time. Now with my own place I ran 220 out to my tool shed and put a outlet on the outside wall that I can plug into. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > There are all sorts of 220V plug styles in the US. Electric kitchen stoves and clothes dryers use two of them. I can only imagine that in your area Gary, these appliances are required to be directly wired into the house ? If so, it is uncommon. The home despot sells 220V outlets. You just need a wire from your main panel, and probably an electrician. > | 27772|26545|2012-03-02 09:00:19|scott|Re: Project planning|If you can't jump off an existing 220 outlet or install one in your current home breaker you can approach the power company to put in a lug off the existing meeter and attaching a second breaker box off of it. When I upgraded my house to central heat and air 10 years ago we didn't have enough capacity in the original 200 amp service and breaker box. So for 300 dollars I hired an electrical company to install a second 200 amp service on the outside of the house. They delt with the power company about turning the power off and back on when they installed the box. The power company put a second lug on our meter that allowed the second 200 amp service to be connected. They also upgraded the transformer we ran off of. Labor parts and all it was 300 dollars. We got a large breaker box because that was all the guy had on hand at the time and he didn't charge us any extra. So I have been over the years able to run direct runs from the breaker for 110 and 220 for sheds or other electrical needs. If you own your own place it is an idea. Actually I don't see why you couldn't do it if your renting either. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > In "equipment choosing" discussion and after reading several posts about possibility to get 230V out of two 115V plugs I tried to find how to do it. There are several problems with it. > > If I remember correctly: > > - regular 115V outlet has only 15A rating (with matching breaker). There are 20A outlets, but they are not so common. > - Even if you can tap-in into 2 115V outlets and get 230V, you still have only 15A (breaker limit). For old equipment you need about 30A. > - 230V requires double (joined) breaker which kills 2 hot wires at the same time. Getting power from 2 115V outlets, in case of equipment failure, it might trip only 1 breaker (separate 115V breakers) and keep equipment "hot". > - equipment should NOT be grounded (safety ground) trough power cable (need separate cable for safety ground). > > May be someone could gives us schematics and show safe way to do it... > > So, you really have only very limited choice: > > - inverter with double voltage 110-115/220-230V able to run on low input amperage (15A). Means limited output amperage. > - gas/diesel power generator with 230V output or generator-welder (about 6KW output). > > Both solutions are expensive. You may find relatively cheap generator, but you need to add operating cost (fuel cost about 1 Gallon/hr). > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Martin, > > If you are in the US, then of course they DO have 220. What they don't have > > is 220 volt receptacles. With a volt meter and a length of wire you could > > probably identify two fairly close together 110 volt receptacles that you > > could tap with two cord ends to provide you with 220 volt power. The > > receptacles would be on opposite phases of the 110/220 volt line. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > | 27773|27773|2012-03-02 10:54:47|martin|project planning|Another thing I found very useful in our prairie climate was I made an extension cord that plugged into the end of my 220 welder cord that acted as an adapter This allowed a small 220 construction heater inside the boat. The heaters always go on sale at CDN tire and do a nice job of warming the interior of the boat durring building phases. Cord and plug ends (60amp to 50amp)from Home Depot. Martin..| 27774|26545|2012-03-02 12:17:11|wild_explorer|Re: Project planning|It is possible that I am wrong. I am not licensed electrician ;) It is still mystery to me why using 2 phases (2 x 115V) such connection still called 1 phase. Or when I see only 2 post for US's 230V input power and no schematics. Problem with tripping only 1 circuit breaker (for 2 x 115V tap-in) might be solved by using extra double/tandem circuit breaker with lower capacity than 15A between equipment and "pig-tails"(which kills both hot legs). May be electricians could tell if this is a good solution or not. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > > I think you are wrong about the case being > hot. 220V and 110V both use the same ground, a > properly wired 220V plug from two 110V leads will > still have a functional ground and a properly > wired welding machine will have contact with that > ground through the case. So even if you throw > one breaker you still have a grounded case. I do > agree that this is something the requires > thought, caution and shouldn't be attempted if > the risks are not well understood. > > Darren | 27775|26545|2012-03-02 12:35:09|wild_explorer|Re: Project planning|My bad. Found it. It is called "3-wire, single-phase, mid-point neutral system". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power US is mysterious country with AC voltages in some areas 100, 110, 115, 120 V ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > It is still mystery to me why using 2 phases (2 x 115V) such connection still called 1 phase. | 27776|27754|2012-03-02 14:01:48|mkriley48|Re: Not boat related ...but|what is your average usage and where do you want to use it? need to know? mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > This is about cell phone cost ..please pass by if not interested. .. Thanks. > > Just wondering if anyone out there has found a pay as you go cell phone service that does not cost an arm and a leg. I bought a cheapie cell phone and used Bell as a pay as you go provider. Problem is the rate seems so high I seem to get very few calls before being prompted to "top up" pay again message. > > Gary > | 27777|26545|2012-03-02 14:41:45|brentswain38|Re: Project planning|When I walked into a marina looking for a place to build my current boat , the manager asked how long it would take. I said " About 6 weeks." He said " Just a small one, eh?" I said " A 31 footer." He rolled his eyes and said "OK". I rented his welder for the month and paid a set amount for it's use, and the power. Halfway thru the first month, he came by and said "That power is costing a lot more than I thought it would . Just thought you should know that" When he came by for his second months rent, there was not a trace of the boat. It was launched, and long gone. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Martin is absolutely right. I talked to several marina's harbor masters and first questions were: > > - how long will you project take? > - how many days per week will you be working? > - how much noise will you create? > - what would you be doing? > > When you say WELDING, that raise red flag right away (fire hazard, smoke, nose (grinding, banging, etc). Possible overload of electrical system. More likely harbor master will offer you to rent some shop area if it is available (separate from other businesses because of fire hazard). Not cheap! > > Most marinas do not allow any welding in a slip at all. > > You REALLY DO NOT WANT to make live-aboard's and harbor master your enemies... You will end up with your project on hands with no place to go in no time ;( > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > At this marina they wont let me do that, > > Too much trouble for them! > > They dont like to have someone , on their property, with a long term project. > > > > Martin > | 27778|26545|2012-03-02 14:44:50|brentswain38|Re: Project planning|I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > My experience in boat building yet; > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27779|26545|2012-03-02 14:47:02|brentswain38|Re: Project planning|A friend in Texas, in a marina which banned sandblasting , wet blasted his hull in the middle of a hot night, then kicked the dirt over the sand to hide the evidence. No one noticed. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Worst: not only welding but also sandblasting...lol > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:52:10 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin is absolutely right. I talked to several marina's harbor masters and first questions were: > > > > - how long will you project take? > > - how many days per week will you be working? > > - how much noise will you create? > > - what would you be doing? > > > > When you say WELDING, that raise red flag right away (fire hazard, smoke, nose (grinding, banging, etc). Possible overload of electrical system. More likely harbor master will offer you to rent some shop area if it is available (separate from other businesses because of fire hazard). Not cheap! > > > > Most marinas do not allow any welding in a slip at all. > > > > You REALLY DO NOT WANT to make live-aboard's and harbor master your enemies... You will end up with your project on hands with no place to go in no time ;( > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > At this marina they wont let me do that, > > > Too much trouble for them! > > > They dont like to have someone , on their property, with a long term project. > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27780|26545|2012-03-02 14:53:15|martin demers|Re: Project planning|I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler The noise comes from everywhere on that small Brigg & Stratton motor I will try the barrel trick to see... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > My experience in boat building yet; > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27781|26545|2012-03-02 15:17:45|Denis Buggy|Re: Project planning|your friend was not too friendly -- some boats have a bio paint which converts shellfish into both sexes to kill them . it also in large groups of boats will rid any harbour of sealife --when you atomize this deadly poison which also contains iscionaite and put it in a form that your family and all other family's can now inhale for years to come in a place that they do not expect to be poisoned in --in time you can be sure somebody will notice the results . denis buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 7:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning A friend in Texas, in a marina which banned sandblasting , wet blasted his hull in the middle of a hot night, then kicked the dirt over the sand to hide the evidence. No one noticed. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Worst: not only welding but also sandblasting...lol > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:52:10 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin is absolutely right. I talked to several marina's harbor masters and first questions were: > > > > - how long will you project take? > > - how many days per week will you be working? > > - how much noise will you create? > > - what would you be doing? > > > > When you say WELDING, that raise red flag right away (fire hazard, smoke, nose (grinding, banging, etc). Possible overload of electrical system. More likely harbor master will offer you to rent some shop area if it is available (separate from other businesses because of fire hazard). Not cheap! > > > > Most marinas do not allow any welding in a slip at all. > > > > You REALLY DO NOT WANT to make live-aboard's and harbor master your enemies... You will end up with your project on hands with no place to go in no time ;( > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > At this marina they wont let me do that, > > > Too much trouble for them! > > > They dont like to have someone , on their property, with a long term project. > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27782|26545|2012-03-02 15:25:40|Matt Malone|Re: Project planning|There are sound insulating panels, of both fibreglass and rock-wool. The heavy, spongy rock wool is better... "Acoustic and fire bat - AFB". It will reduce the high frequency noise, like VW bug, and make it a low rumbly quieter sound like a sedan. Don't build it wind-tight or it will overheat. Best to have panels that prevent line of sight to the engine -- requiring the sound to bounce on the panels -- but without the panels meeting at edges so air can slip between panels and move past the engine easily. Alternately, if the engine uses a fan-flywheel-magneto, like many do, duct fresh air from outside the enclosure to this fan so the engine sucks fresh air from outside the box, keeping itself cool. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:53:14 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler > The noise comes from everywhere on that small Brigg & Stratton motor > > I will try the barrel trick to see... > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > > > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > > > > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > > > > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: williswildest@... > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > > > > > > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > > > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > > > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > > > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > > > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > > > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > > > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > > > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > > > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > > > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > > > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27783|26545|2012-03-02 17:58:13|haidan|Re: Project planning|I have done this two wire deal, it's really not so hard, though it does involve checking the sockets with a multimeter carefully and wiring it accordingly. In houses the closest to 220v 50amp you're gonna get is a 220v 30amp dryer plug with has four wires, the bare ground wire, red hot wire, black hot wire, white neutral wire. To get the 220v you need to use only the red and black ignore the white wire and just use the red, black and bare ground wire, you should get a 220v reading between the red and black. I believe this because the two hot wires are out of phase? So as one is at peak + voltage the other is at peak - voltage but maybe someone could fill me in on this? I found the 30amps will do Ok but if you start trying to use a whole 1/8" rod in a hurry it'll blow the breaker (with an old lincoln 280amp buzzbox). I haven't done it but I suppose one could get a decent current allotment from using the dryer and the stove. as long as you use the oppositely phased wires. I'm not sure about wiring codes to this respect but I can imagine that sometimes the black and red could be wired opposite form one another on different breakers, but a multimeter should tell you which ones will give you 220v. At marinas usually there are lot's of 110v 15amp plugs and usually a few 110v 20amp plugs, and then sometimes they'll have one or two 30amp plugs. Up here they use the three pronged circular patterned sockets (not the 20amp ones with the tee) one of the prongs has a tang on it. 20amp and 30amp have a tang on different prongs, which I guess is supposed to prevent you from plugging anything in of the wrong rating, though one can just shave off the tang and surprise it still works. The wiring at marinas and with the variety of socket types, is probably more likely to be somewhat haywire and the black, white and red (if there is one) could be wired to opposite holes than you might find on land. I believe this is why there are such things as isolation transformers for shore power? so you don't end up wiring what is the white neutral wire inside the boat to the black hot wire? So always best to check with a multimeter and carefully match the wires up. If you wire the welder up to two of the same (say both black or both red hots) then the welder won't really work, it'll hum and the rod will spark a bit but it's very very cold. If you wire to the white and one of the red/black hot wires then you will find out quick (lightning quick) that you've got it wrong at best the breaker will just instantly blow, but usually something melts along with it, in my experience it's usually at the plug/socket junction and the part of the brass will melt/fuse together, I suppose this is why wiring up a welder like this is breaking every wiring codes in the book and why marinas really don't like it but it ends up working quite well once you wire it correctly, shares the current draw between the two breakers and wire runs. I also used a welder someone made out of two microwave transformers, I believe he cut out the secondary windings from each transformer then re-wrapped some heavier gauge wire through the holes created. Off the top of my head I can't remember if he wired these two new secondary windings in series or parallel, probably the latter. He just plugged each microwave transformer into two 110v 15amp sockets each on separate breakers. It welded quite well with 3/32 rod though there was no current selection but really it wasn't so bad considering it's something one could make completely out of trash. When I took my buzzbox apart it looked as though the buzzbox was nearly identical to these microwave things, big transformer with heavy secondary windings. The current adjustment was done by moving the coils and the core further apart or moving the secondary coil partially out core/primary windings. So I guess this wouldn't be too hard to make something like this happen out of some microwave transformers.| 27784|26545|2012-03-02 19:52:17|wild_explorer|Re: Project planning|That what confused me too. This is what I have got by reading some information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-leg_delta In North America there are: - 240V, 1 Phase, 2 Legs - 3 wires (you can get 2 x 120V, 1 phase, 1 leg, 2 wires configuration from it) - 240V, 3 Phase - 4 wires (you can get 240V, 208V, 120V from it) European is 220V, 1 phase, 1 Leg - 2 wires. European 220V and North America 240V equipment is wired differently. It is possible to modify it (if it supports both 50/60Hz), but it is need to have schematics. Transformers designed for only one frequency (50 or 60 Hz) will have problem to work on different frequency. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: >I believe this because the two hot wires are out of phase? So as one >is at peak + voltage the other is at peak - voltage but maybe someone >could fill me in on this? | 27785|26545|2012-03-02 20:02:17|wild_explorer|Re: Project planning|Actually it is very good idea. I need to check what is the rental price for welding equipment. This way I may choose better/different equipment and not to deal with finding, buying and liquidation after project is done. If I can find a business, willing to rent me welding equipment, there are some possibility to ask to use during working hours other equipment they may have ;) What I would not save on, is on GOOD electrodes or wire. I think it worth of extra expense. I was welding with different brands of 1/8" E6011. I had to crank amperage almost 20A to make another brand to perform OK. It was MUCH easier to weld with another brand with current 20A lower. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I rented his welder for the month and paid a set amount for it's use, and the power. | 27786|26545|2012-03-02 22:37:21|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions|I tried to weld with self-shielded flux cored wire (FCAW-S) Innershield NR-232. It is certified for seismic construction and boat building. Minimum wire size is 0.068". Well... Good: - flux core gun gives very good visibility. Better than stick welding. - flux cools off faster than metal and keep metal contained when welding vertical up. Easier to weld in that position. - excellent penetration Bad: - it runs VERY hot. Allows only short welds (about 4-6") on 3/16" plate. Blows holes in 1/8" right away. - very heavy slag. Harder to clean compare to E6011. - big coil - 13.5Lb minimum and large diameter, 0.068" wire (will not fit in compact units). - the weld is not as smooth as with FCAW-G (more like a weld with E6011) - lot of spatter Ugly: - Creates white smoke and deposits on the metal. I was told to wear respirator, keep my head out of smoke and brush off deposits away from me. If inhaled, somehow it absorbs oxygen from lungs, and cause cough.| 27787|26545|2012-03-03 12:49:27|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Project planning|Long time, hope all's well.     Re: Project planning Posted by: "brentswain38" Fri Mar 2, 2012 11:44 am (PST) I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. brentswain38@... HYPERLINK "http://profiles.yahoo.com/brentswain38"brentswain38 I heard of the same thing to quiet down a stationary engine, but wouldn't you have issues with back pressure? Wouldn't want to screw it up. What are the considerations here and would you not need engine spec's to know your not blowing valves (or whatever), or would it just be a matter of plumbing it for the same size as your engine exhaust, or maybe doubling the size of the plumbing to reduce backpressure? 　 Another potential issue maybe the back pressure that an exhaust flapper  coming out of the burried barrel adds to the system?? Or is it best just to use a tin can over the final exhaust from the burried barrel so you can shoot into the air as you fire up the jenny?   Cheers, Shane 　Hi Brent, [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27788|26545|2012-03-03 18:05:00|brentswain38|Re: Project planning|Switching to a much quieter Honda may solve the problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler > The noise comes from everywhere on that small Brigg & Stratton motor > > I will try the barrel trick to see... > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > > > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > > > > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > > > > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: williswildest@ > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > > > > > > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > > > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > > > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > > > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > > > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > > > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > > > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > > > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > > > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > > > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > > > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27789|26545|2012-03-03 18:10:29|martin demers|Re: Project planning|Yes, but mucho $$$$$ To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 23:04:57 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning Switching to a much quieter Honda may solve the problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler > The noise comes from everywhere on that small Brigg & Stratton motor > > I will try the barrel trick to see... > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > > > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > > > > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > > > > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: williswildest@ > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > > > > > > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > > > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > > > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > > > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > > > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > > > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > > > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > > > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > > > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > > > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > > > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27790|26545|2012-03-03 18:10:31|brentswain38|Re: Project planning|What has been the main culprit in eliminating all life forms in many harbours are holding tank regulations, which result in toxic holding tank chemicals being pumped out at night, which is what the majority of boaters do in the US. They have found that over 80% of the copper in Puget Sound comes from auto brake shoes. Allowing boaters to be scape goats just aggravates the problem , by letting the real culprits off the hook, and thus ignored. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > your friend was not too friendly -- some boats have a bio paint which converts shellfish into both sexes to kill them . > it also in large groups of boats will rid any harbour of sealife --when you atomize this deadly poison which also contains iscionaite and put it in a form that your family and all other family's can now inhale for years to come in a place that they do not expect to be poisoned in --in time you can be sure somebody will notice the results . denis buggy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 7:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > A friend in Texas, in a marina which banned sandblasting , wet blasted his hull in the middle of a hot night, then kicked the dirt over the sand to hide the evidence. No one noticed. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Worst: not only welding but also sandblasting...lol > > > > Martin > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: williswildest@ > > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:52:10 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin is absolutely right. I talked to several marina's harbor masters and first questions were: > > > > > > > > - how long will you project take? > > > > - how many days per week will you be working? > > > > - how much noise will you create? > > > > - what would you be doing? > > > > > > > > When you say WELDING, that raise red flag right away (fire hazard, smoke, nose (grinding, banging, etc). Possible overload of electrical system. More likely harbor master will offer you to rent some shop area if it is available (separate from other businesses because of fire hazard). Not cheap! > > > > > > > > Most marinas do not allow any welding in a slip at all. > > > > > > > > You REALLY DO NOT WANT to make live-aboard's and harbor master your enemies... You will end up with your project on hands with no place to go in no time ;( > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > At this marina they wont let me do that, > > > > > Too much trouble for them! > > > > > They dont like to have someone , on their property, with a long term project. > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27791|26545|2012-03-03 18:12:16|brentswain38|Re: Project planning|Carpet also makes an excellent sound barrier, and is free from dumpsters. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > There are sound insulating panels, of both fibreglass and rock-wool. The heavy, spongy rock wool is better... "Acoustic and fire bat - AFB". It will reduce the high frequency noise, like VW bug, and make it a low rumbly quieter sound like a sedan. Don't build it wind-tight or it will overheat. Best to have panels that prevent line of sight to the engine -- requiring the sound to bounce on the panels -- but without the panels meeting at edges so air can slip between panels and move past the engine easily. Alternately, if the engine uses a fan-flywheel-magneto, like many do, duct fresh air from outside the enclosure to this fan so the engine sucks fresh air from outside the box, keeping itself cool. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mdemers2005@... > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:53:14 -0500 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler > > The noise comes from everywhere on that small Brigg & Stratton motor > > > > I will try the barrel trick to see... > > > > Martin > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > > > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > > > > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > > > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > > > > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > > > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > > > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > > > > > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > > > > > > > > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > > > > > > > > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > > > > > > > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > > > > > > > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > > > > > > > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > > > > > > > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > > > > > > > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > > > > > > > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > > > > > > > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > > > > > > > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > > > > > > > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > > > > > > > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27792|26545|2012-03-03 18:14:38|martin demers|Re: Project planning|I will try that staple to some old plywood To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 23:12:14 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning Carpet also makes an excellent sound barrier, and is free from dumpsters. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > There are sound insulating panels, of both fibreglass and rock-wool. The heavy, spongy rock wool is better... "Acoustic and fire bat - AFB". It will reduce the high frequency noise, like VW bug, and make it a low rumbly quieter sound like a sedan. Don't build it wind-tight or it will overheat. Best to have panels that prevent line of sight to the engine -- requiring the sound to bounce on the panels -- but without the panels meeting at edges so air can slip between panels and move past the engine easily. Alternately, if the engine uses a fan-flywheel-magneto, like many do, duct fresh air from outside the enclosure to this fan so the engine sucks fresh air from outside the box, keeping itself cool. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mdemers2005@... > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:53:14 -0500 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler > > The noise comes from everywhere on that small Brigg & Stratton motor > > > > I will try the barrel trick to see... > > > > Martin > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > > > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > > > > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > > > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > > > > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > > > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > > > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > > > > > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > > > > > > > > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > > > > > > > > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > > > > > > > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > > > > > > > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > > > > > > > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > > > > > > > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > > > > > > > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > > > > > > > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > > > > > > > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > > > > > > > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > > > > > > > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > > > > > > > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27793|27754|2012-03-03 18:23:41|GP|Re: Not boat related ...but|Hi Mike... I only use the phone a few times a week. I guess about 30 minutes a week should cover it. When I head out for sailing season...even less. That is why I went with a cheap Nokia phone and a pay as you go but it seems I use up the time very quickly with Bell.There seems to be some hidden charges when the phone is used. I have had some tele marketers call which may be a factor. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > what is your average usage and where do you want to use it? > need to know? > mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > This is about cell phone cost ..please pass by if not interested. .. Thanks. > > > > Just wondering if anyone out there has found a pay as you go cell phone service that does not cost an arm and a leg. I bought a cheapie cell phone and used Bell as a pay as you go provider. Problem is the rate seems so high I seem to get very few calls before being prompted to "top up" pay again message. > > > > Gary > > > | 27794|26545|2012-03-03 18:25:17|James Pronk|Re: Project planning|I know a guy who was in a yard doing welding on his boat and people were complaining about the noise. The boat next to him had been sitting in the yard for years with storage bills unpaid. He put his welder inside that boat and ran the leads over to his boat and the complaints stopped James --- On Sat, 3/3/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 6:14 PM I will try that staple to some old plywood To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 23:12:14 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning                         Carpet also makes an excellent sound barrier, and is free from dumpsters. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > There are sound insulating panels, of both fibreglass and rock-wool.   The heavy, spongy rock wool is better... "Acoustic and fire bat - AFB".  It will reduce the high frequency noise, like VW bug, and make it a low rumbly quieter sound like a sedan.  Don't build it wind-tight or it will overheat.  Best to have panels that prevent line of sight to the engine -- requiring the sound to bounce on the panels -- but without the panels meeting at edges so air can slip between panels and move past the engine easily.  Alternately, if the engine uses a fan-flywheel-magneto, like many do, duct fresh air from outside the enclosure to this fan so the engine sucks fresh air from outside the box, keeping itself cool. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mdemers2005@... > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:53:14 -0500 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler > > The noise comes from everywhere  on that small Brigg & Stratton motor > > > > I will try the barrel trick to see... > > > > Martin > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > >    > > > > > >      > >        > >        > >       I've  heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > > > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > > > > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > > > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > > > > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > > > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > > > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >                              > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2  years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > > > > > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > > > > > > > > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > > > > > > > > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >      > > > > >        > > > > >        > > > > >       Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > > > > > > > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > > > > > > > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > > > > > > > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > > > > > > > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > > > > > > > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > > > > > > > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > > > > > > > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > > > > > > > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > > > > > > > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > > > > > > > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >      > > > > >      > > > > > > > > > >      > > > > >      > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >                            > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >      > >      > > > >      > >      > > > > > > > > > > > > > >    > > > > > > > > > > > > > >                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > >                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27795|26545|2012-03-03 18:44:42|martin demers|Re: Project planning|Too late... Lol There was an old rotten yacht sitting next to my boat, I took it apart and burned all the wood... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 15:25:16 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning I know a guy who was in a yard doing welding on his boat and people were complaining about the noise. The boat next to him had been sitting in the yard for years with storage bills unpaid. He put his welder inside that boat and ran the leads over to his boat and the complaints stopped James --- On Sat, 3/3/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 6:14 PM I will try that staple to some old plywood To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 23:12:14 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning Carpet also makes an excellent sound barrier, and is free from dumpsters. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > There are sound insulating panels, of both fibreglass and rock-wool. The heavy, spongy rock wool is better... "Acoustic and fire bat - AFB". It will reduce the high frequency noise, like VW bug, and make it a low rumbly quieter sound like a sedan. Don't build it wind-tight or it will overheat. Best to have panels that prevent line of sight to the engine -- requiring the sound to bounce on the panels -- but without the panels meeting at edges so air can slip between panels and move past the engine easily. Alternately, if the engine uses a fan-flywheel-magneto, like many do, duct fresh air from outside the enclosure to this fan so the engine sucks fresh air from outside the box, keeping itself cool. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mdemers2005@... > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:53:14 -0500 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler > > The noise comes from everywhere on that small Brigg & Stratton motor > > > > I will try the barrel trick to see... > > > > Martin > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > > > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > > > > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > > > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > > > > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > > > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > > > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > > > > > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > > > > > > > > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > > > > > > > > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > > > > > > > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > > > > > > > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > > > > > > > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > > > > > > > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > > > > > > > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > > > > > > > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > > > > > > > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > > > > > > > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > > > > > > > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > > > > > > > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27796|27754|2012-03-03 19:44:22|Don & Karina|Re: Not boat related ...but|I got my cellphone from 7 eleven. It's a nokia and on the speakout plan. Pay as you go and very cheap. Works all across Canada too! Don B. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of GP Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 5:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but Hi Mike... I only use the phone a few times a week. I guess about 30 minutes a week should cover it. When I head out for sailing season...even less. That is why I went with a cheap Nokia phone and a pay as you go but it seems I use up the time very quickly with Bell.There seems to be some hidden charges when the phone is used. I have had some tele marketers call which may be a factor. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "mkriley48" wrote: > > what is your average usage and where do you want to use it? > need to know? > mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "GP" wrote: > > > > This is about cell phone cost ..please pass by if not interested. .. Thanks. > > > > Just wondering if anyone out there has found a pay as you go cell phone service that does not cost an arm and a leg. I bought a cheapie cell phone and used Bell as a pay as you go provider. Problem is the rate seems so high I seem to get very few calls before being prompted to "top up" pay again message. > > > > Gary > > > _____ size=1 width="100%" noshade color="#aca899" align=center> No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4848 - Release Date: 03/03/12 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27797|27754|2012-03-03 21:03:33|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: Not boat related ...but Android phone/free skype|My android phone ( not necessaarily connected to Telus / Bell /Rodgers etc) will work with Skype without paying any fee to the networks. You just need to be in wifi range of  a cafe or hot spot. The Samsung Fascinate 4G is set up to work with Skype, many others too. ----- Original Message ----- From: Don & Karina Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012 4:44 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > I got my cellphone from 7 eleven. It's a nokia and on the > speakout plan. Pay > as you go and very cheap. Works all across Canada too! > >   > > Don B. > >   > >   _____  > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of GP > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 5:24 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but > >   > >   > > Hi Mike... I only use the phone a few times a week. I guess > about 30 minutes > a week should cover it. When I head out for sailing > season...even less. That > is why I went with a cheap Nokia phone and a pay as you go but > it seems I > use up the time very quickly with Bell.There seems to be some > hidden charges > when the phone is used. I have had some tele marketers call > which may be a > factor. > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "mkriley48" > wrote: > > > > what is your average usage and where do you want to use it? > > need to know? > > mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "GP" > wrote: > > > > > > This is about cell phone cost ..please pass by if not > interested. .. > Thanks. > > > > > > Just wondering if anyone out there has found a pay as you go > cell phone > service that does not cost an arm and a leg. I bought a cheapie > cell phone > and used Bell as a pay as you go provider. Problem is the rate > seems so high > I seem to get very few calls before being prompted to "top up" > pay again > message. > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > >   _____  > > size=1 width="100%" noshade color="#aca899" align=center> > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4848 - Release Date: > 03/03/12 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27798|27798|2012-03-04 04:32:13|Denis Buggy|The potential effects of antifouling paints from water-based recreat|RE SANDBLASTING HULLS THIS ARTICLE ALTHOUGH LONG IS AN HONEST VIEW AND STATES THAT SOME COUNTRIES IN THE EU HAVE BANNED THE USE OF BIOCIDES FOR HULL ANTIFOULING AND MORE ARE LIKELY TO FOLLOW . REGARDS DENIS BUGGY http://www.ukmarinesac.org.uk/activities/recreation/r03_03.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27799|27754|2012-03-04 08:05:37|martin demers|Re: Not boat related ...but Android phone/free skype|Will it work with my iphone? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ian.jean@... Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 18:03:33 -0800 Subject: Re: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but Android phone/free skype My android phone ( not necessaarily connected to Telus / Bell /Rodgers etc) will work with Skype without paying any fee to the networks. You just need to be in wifi range of a cafe or hot spot. The Samsung Fascinate 4G is set up to work with Skype, many others too. ----- Original Message ----- From: Don & Karina Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012 4:44 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > I got my cellphone from 7 eleven. It's a nokia and on the > speakout plan. Pay > as you go and very cheap. Works all across Canada too! > > > > Don B. > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of GP > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 5:24 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but > > > > > > Hi Mike... I only use the phone a few times a week. I guess > about 30 minutes > a week should cover it. When I head out for sailing > season...even less. That > is why I went with a cheap Nokia phone and a pay as you go but > it seems I > use up the time very quickly with Bell.There seems to be some > hidden charges > when the phone is used. I have had some tele marketers call > which may be a > factor. > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "mkriley48" > wrote: > > > > what is your average usage and where do you want to use it? > > need to know? > > mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "GP" > wrote: > > > > > > This is about cell phone cost ..please pass by if not > interested. .. > Thanks. > > > > > > Just wondering if anyone out there has found a pay as you go > cell phone > service that does not cost an arm and a leg. I bought a cheapie > cell phone > and used Bell as a pay as you go provider. Problem is the rate > seems so high > I seem to get very few calls before being prompted to "top up" > pay again > message. > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > _____ > > size=1 width="100%" noshade color="#aca899" align=center> > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4848 - Release Date: > 03/03/12 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27800|26545|2012-03-04 12:32:19|Darren Bos|Re: Project planning|In many places you could literally draw a map of the marina location just by taking sediment cores and looking at the levels of contamination (particularly copper and tributyl tin). The less current that flows through the marina, the worse things are. Of course we like to put marinas in nice sheltered locations..... The reason that these compounds work as antifouling is that they are particularly toxic to marine life. I always find it surprising that folks who enjoy being out on the water aren't willing to do more to protect it. Brent is right that terrestrial loads can dwarf those from boats. Nutrients from lawn fertilizer dwarf those from boats pumping out waste, near a city hydrocarbons that are washed off roads by rain are likely to exceed those from recreational boats (shipping traffic is a different matter). However, there are places and ways in which recreational boats are the major culprits. There's no good reason why bottom paint should not be recovered and disposed of in a manner consistent with its toxicity. Darren At 03:10 PM 03/03/2012, you wrote: > > >What has been the main culprit in eliminating >all life forms in many harbours are holding tank >regulations, which result in toxic holding tank >chemicals being pumped out at night, which is >what the majority of boaters do in the US. They >have found that over 80% of the copper in Puget >Sound comes from auto brake shoes. Allowing >boaters to be scape goats just aggravates the >problem , by letting the real culprits off the hook, and thus ignored. > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >"Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > your friend was not too friendly -- some > boats have a bio paint which converts shellfish into both sexes to kill them . > > it also in large groups of boats will rid any > harbour of sealife --when you atomize this > deadly poison which also contains iscionaite > and put it in a form that your family and all > other family's can now inhale for years to come > in a place that they do not expect to be > poisoned in --in time you can be sure somebody > will notice the results . denis buggy > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 7:46 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > A friend in Texas, in a marina which banned > sandblasting , wet blasted his hull in the > middle of a hot night, then kicked the dirt > over the sand to hide the evidence. No one noticed. > > > > --- In > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > martin demers wrote: > > > > > > Worst: not only welding but also sandblasting...lol > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: williswildest@ > > > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:52:10 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin is absolutely right. I talked to > several marina's harbor masters and first questions were: > > > > > > > > > > > > - how long will you project take? > > > > > > - how many days per week will you be working? > > > > > > - how much noise will you create? > > > > > > - what would you be doing? > > > > > > > > > > > > When you say WELDING, that raise red flag > right away (fire hazard, smoke, nose (grinding, > banging, etc). Possible overload of electrical > system. More likely harbor master will offer > you to rent some shop area if it is available > (separate from other businesses because of fire hazard). Not cheap! > > > > > > > > > > > > Most marinas do not allow any welding in a slip at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > You REALLY DO NOT WANT to make > live-aboard's and harbor master your enemies... > You will end up with your project on hands with no place to go in no time ;( > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At this marina they wont let me do that, > > > > > > > Too much trouble for them! > > > > > > > They dont like to have someone , on their > property, with a long term project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27801|27754|2012-03-04 13:03:56|Chris|Re: Not boat related ...but Android phone/free skype|Yes you can download the skype app for the I phone On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 5:05 AM, martin demers wrote: > Will it work with my iphone? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ian.jean@... > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 18:03:33 -0800 > Subject: Re: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but Android > phone/free skype > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My android phone ( not necessaarily connected to Telus / Bell > /Rodgers etc) > > will work with Skype without paying any fee to the networks. > > > > You just need to be in wifi range of a cafe or hot spot. > > > > The Samsung Fascinate 4G is set up to work with Skype, many others too. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Don & Karina > > Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012 4:44 pm > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > I got my cellphone from 7 eleven. It's a nokia and on the > > > speakout plan. Pay > > > as you go and very cheap. Works all across Canada too! > > > > > > > > > > > > Don B. > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of GP > > > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 5:24 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike... I only use the phone a few times a week. I guess > > > about 30 minutes > > > a week should cover it. When I head out for sailing > > > season...even less. That > > > is why I went with a cheap Nokia phone and a pay as you go but > > > it seems I > > > use up the time very quickly with Bell.There seems to be some > > > hidden charges > > > when the phone is used. I have had some tele marketers call > > > which may be a > > > factor. > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "mkriley48" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > what is your average usage and where do you want to use it? > > > > need to know? > > > > mike > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "GP" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > This is about cell phone cost ..please pass by if not > > > interested. .. > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > Just wondering if anyone out there has found a pay as you go > > > cell phone > > > service that does not cost an arm and a leg. I bought a cheapie > > > cell phone > > > and used Bell as a pay as you go provider. Problem is the rate > > > seems so high > > > I seem to get very few calls before being prompted to "top up" > > > pay again > > > message. > > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > size=1 width="100%" noshade color="#aca899" align=center> > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4848 - Release Date: > > > 03/03/12 > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27802|27754|2012-03-04 13:04:56|martin demers|Re: Not boat related ...but Android phone/free skype|Thanks! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: clyc@... Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:03:54 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but Android phone/free skype Yes you can download the skype app for the I phone On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 5:05 AM, martin demers wrote: > Will it work with my iphone? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ian.jean@... > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 18:03:33 -0800 > Subject: Re: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but Android > phone/free skype > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My android phone ( not necessaarily connected to Telus / Bell > /Rodgers etc) > > will work with Skype without paying any fee to the networks. > > > > You just need to be in wifi range of a cafe or hot spot. > > > > The Samsung Fascinate 4G is set up to work with Skype, many others too. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Don & Karina > > Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012 4:44 pm > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > I got my cellphone from 7 eleven. It's a nokia and on the > > > speakout plan. Pay > > > as you go and very cheap. Works all across Canada too! > > > > > > > > > > > > Don B. > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of GP > > > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 5:24 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Not boat related ...but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike... I only use the phone a few times a week. I guess > > > about 30 minutes > > > a week should cover it. When I head out for sailing > > > season...even less. That > > > is why I went with a cheap Nokia phone and a pay as you go but > > > it seems I > > > use up the time very quickly with Bell.There seems to be some > > > hidden charges > > > when the phone is used. I have had some tele marketers call > > > which may be a > > > factor. > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "mkriley48" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > what is your average usage and where do you want to use it? > > > > need to know? > > > > mike > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "GP" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > This is about cell phone cost ..please pass by if not > > > interested. .. > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > Just wondering if anyone out there has found a pay as you go > > > cell phone > > > service that does not cost an arm and a leg. I bought a cheapie > > > cell phone > > > and used Bell as a pay as you go provider. Problem is the rate > > > seems so high > > > I seem to get very few calls before being prompted to "top up" > > > pay again > > > message. > > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > size=1 width="100%" noshade color="#aca899" align=center> > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4848 - Release Date: > > > 03/03/12 > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27803|27798|2012-03-06 17:29:39|brentswain38|Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from water-based rec|I once did a cruise from BC to Tahiti and back with a fresh coat of TBTF paint. Compared to subsequent trips with copper paint, I found the TBTF quite useless. One trick I hope top try soon is heating the paint on my hull with a tiger torch, to soften it , so I can scrape it off with a scraper, on the tide. Should save sandblasting. Wasser tar should enable recoating it on the tide. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > RE SANDBLASTING HULLS > THIS ARTICLE ALTHOUGH LONG IS AN HONEST VIEW AND STATES THAT SOME COUNTRIES IN THE EU HAVE BANNED THE USE OF BIOCIDES FOR HULL ANTIFOULING AND MORE ARE LIKELY TO FOLLOW . REGARDS DENIS BUGGY > http://www.ukmarinesac.org.uk/activities/recreation/r03_03.htm > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27804|26545|2012-03-06 17:38:50|brentswain38|Re: Project planning|In Courternay , the Tsolum river has been killed by copper mine tailings. Nothing has been done about it, because, like boats over 25 meters, it involves the rich. Low income cruisers, volenteering to be political scape goats for politicians, enabling them to ignore real causes of pollution, does the opposite of protecting the environment. Twin keelers, which let you scrape your hull any time, drastically reduces the need for antifouling. Mine has been hauled twice in 28 years. Last time was 2003. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > > In many places you could literally draw a map of > the marina location just by taking sediment cores > and looking at the levels of contamination > (particularly copper and tributyl tin). The less > current that flows through the marina, the worse > things are. Of course we like to put marinas in > nice sheltered locations..... The reason that > these compounds work as antifouling is that they > are particularly toxic to marine life. I always > find it surprising that folks who enjoy being out > on the water aren't willing to do more to protect it. > > Brent is right that terrestrial loads can dwarf > those from boats. Nutrients from lawn fertilizer > dwarf those from boats pumping out waste, near a > city hydrocarbons that are washed off roads by > rain are likely to exceed those from recreational > boats (shipping traffic is a different > matter). However, there are places and ways in > which recreational boats are the major > culprits. There's no good reason why bottom > paint should not be recovered and disposed of in > a manner consistent with its toxicity. > > Darren > > > At 03:10 PM 03/03/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >What has been the main culprit in eliminating > >all life forms in many harbours are holding tank > >regulations, which result in toxic holding tank > >chemicals being pumped out at night, which is > >what the majority of boaters do in the US. They > >have found that over 80% of the copper in Puget > >Sound comes from auto brake shoes. Allowing > >boaters to be scape goats just aggravates the > >problem , by letting the real culprits off the hook, and thus ignored. > > > >--- In > >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > >"Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > > > your friend was not too friendly -- some > > boats have a bio paint which converts shellfish into both sexes to kill them . > > > it also in large groups of boats will rid any > > harbour of sealife --when you atomize this > > deadly poison which also contains iscionaite > > and put it in a form that your family and all > > other family's can now inhale for years to come > > in a place that they do not expect to be > > poisoned in --in time you can be sure somebody > > will notice the results . denis buggy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 7:46 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > A friend in Texas, in a marina which banned > > sandblasting , wet blasted his hull in the > > middle of a hot night, then kicked the dirt > > over the sand to hide the evidence. No one noticed. > > > > > > --- In > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > Worst: not only welding but also sandblasting...lol > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:52:10 +0000 > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin is absolutely right. I talked to > > several marina's harbor masters and first questions were: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - how long will you project take? > > > > > > > > - how many days per week will you be working? > > > > > > > > - how much noise will you create? > > > > > > > > - what would you be doing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you say WELDING, that raise red flag > > right away (fire hazard, smoke, nose (grinding, > > banging, etc). Possible overload of electrical > > system. More likely harbor master will offer > > you to rent some shop area if it is available > > (separate from other businesses because of fire hazard). Not cheap! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most marinas do not allow any welding in a slip at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You REALLY DO NOT WANT to make > > live-aboard's and harbor master your enemies... > > You will end up with your project on hands with no place to go in no time ;( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At this marina they wont let me do that, > > > > > > > > > Too much trouble for them! > > > > > > > > > They dont like to have someone , on their > > property, with a long term project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27805|26545|2012-03-06 17:40:46|brentswain38|Re: Project planning|Building a large wooden box , covered with dumpster carpet, inside and out, should solve the problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Too late... Lol > There was an old rotten yacht sitting next to my boat, I took it apart and burned all the wood... > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jpronk1@... > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 15:25:16 -0800 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know a guy who was in a yard doing welding on his boat and people were complaining about the noise. The boat next to him had been sitting in the yard for years with storage bills unpaid. He put his welder inside that boat and ran the leads over to his boat and the complaints stopped > > James > > > > --- On Sat, 3/3/12, martin demers wrote: > > > > From: martin demers > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 6:14 PM > > > > I will try that staple to some old plywood > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 23:12:14 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carpet also makes an excellent sound barrier, and is free from dumpsters. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are sound insulating panels, of both fibreglass and rock-wool. The heavy, spongy rock wool is better... "Acoustic and fire bat - AFB". It will reduce the high frequency noise, like VW bug, and make it a low rumbly quieter sound like a sedan. Don't build it wind-tight or it will overheat. Best to have panels that prevent line of sight to the engine -- requiring the sound to bounce on the panels -- but without the panels meeting at edges so air can slip between panels and move past the engine easily. Alternately, if the engine uses a fan-flywheel-magneto, like many do, duct fresh air from outside the enclosure to this fan so the engine sucks fresh air from outside the box, keeping itself cool. > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@ > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:53:14 -0500 > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler > > > > > > The noise comes from everywhere on that small Brigg & Stratton motor > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try the barrel trick to see... > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > > > > > > > > > > > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > > > > > > > > > > > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > > > > > > > > > > > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27806|26545|2012-03-06 17:46:03|M.J. Malone|Re: Project planning|Make sure to leave openings for air to move through. Two separate part-boxes that do not seal but overlap will provide more ventilation. A couple of loose, half- full sandbags really help keep the plywood from resonating. Matt brentswain38 wrote: Building a large wooden box , covered with dumpster carpet, inside and out, should solve the problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Too late... Lol > There was an old rotten yacht sitting next to my boat, I took it apart and burned all the wood... > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jpronk1@... > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 15:25:16 -0800 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know a guy who was in a yard doing welding on his boat and people were complaining about the noise. The boat next to him had been sitting in the yard for years with storage bills unpaid. He put his welder inside that boat and ran the leads over to his boat and the complaints stopped > > James > > > > --- On Sat, 3/3/12, martin demers wrote: > > > > From: martin demers > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 6:14 PM > > > > I will try that staple to some old plywood > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 23:12:14 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carpet also makes an excellent sound barrier, and is free from dumpsters. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are sound insulating panels, of both fibreglass and rock-wool. The heavy, spongy rock wool is better... "Acoustic and fire bat - AFB". It will reduce the high frequency noise, like VW bug, and make it a low rumbly quieter sound like a sedan. Don't build it wind-tight or it will overheat. Best to have panels that prevent line of sight to the engine -- requiring the sound to bounce on the panels -- but without the panels meeting at edges so air can slip between panels and move past the engine easily. Alternately, if the engine uses a fan-flywheel-magneto, like many do, duct fresh air from outside the enclosure to this fan so the engine sucks fresh air from outside the box, keeping itself cool. > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@ > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:53:14 -0500 > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler > > > > > > The noise comes from everywhere on that small Brigg & Stratton motor > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try the barrel trick to see... > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > > > > > > > > > > > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > > > > > > > > > > > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > > > > > > > > > > > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27807|26545|2012-03-06 18:01:32|martin demers|Re: Project planning|Yes I will. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: m_j_malone@... Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:46:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning Make sure to leave openings for air to move through. Two separate part-boxes that do not seal but overlap will provide more ventilation. A couple of loose, half- full sandbags really help keep the plywood from resonating. Matt brentswain38 wrote: Building a large wooden box , covered with dumpster carpet, inside and out, should solve the problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Too late... Lol > There was an old rotten yacht sitting next to my boat, I took it apart and burned all the wood... > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jpronk1@... > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 15:25:16 -0800 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know a guy who was in a yard doing welding on his boat and people were complaining about the noise. The boat next to him had been sitting in the yard for years with storage bills unpaid. He put his welder inside that boat and ran the leads over to his boat and the complaints stopped > > James > > > > --- On Sat, 3/3/12, martin demers wrote: > > > > From: martin demers > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 6:14 PM > > > > I will try that staple to some old plywood > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 23:12:14 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carpet also makes an excellent sound barrier, and is free from dumpsters. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are sound insulating panels, of both fibreglass and rock-wool. The heavy, spongy rock wool is better... "Acoustic and fire bat - AFB". It will reduce the high frequency noise, like VW bug, and make it a low rumbly quieter sound like a sedan. Don't build it wind-tight or it will overheat. Best to have panels that prevent line of sight to the engine -- requiring the sound to bounce on the panels -- but without the panels meeting at edges so air can slip between panels and move past the engine easily. Alternately, if the engine uses a fan-flywheel-magneto, like many do, duct fresh air from outside the enclosure to this fan so the engine sucks fresh air from outside the box, keeping itself cool. > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@ > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:53:14 -0500 > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler > > > > > > The noise comes from everywhere on that small Brigg & Stratton motor > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try the barrel trick to see... > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > > > > > > > > > > > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > > > > > > > > > > > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > > > > > > > > > > > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27808|27808|2012-03-07 05:08:35|ANDREW AIREY|Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from water-based rec|It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good.Dog Whelks,which react badly to TBT,are a nuisance to fishermen because they make holes in fihing nets.Similarly we have a problem in the UK consequent upon some ecoidiots releasing mink into the environment from fur farms.These have decimated the w3ater vole and other populations resulting in a lot of public concern.However water voles cause a lot of bank damage to canals so their absence is not always regretted by canal lengthmen. cheers Andy Airey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27809|26545|2012-03-07 14:36:06|scott|Re: Project planning|just wow.. how many pages of text just to reply "yes i will". lets work at trimming our posts a bit. I didn't trim this post just to make a point :) scott ps.. Martin.. though I picked your reply to comment on my message is more intended for everyone. I just scrolled through 20 pages of text to read about 4 paragraphs worth of text. In mylast digest --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Yes I will. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:46:00 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make sure to leave openings for air to move through. Two separate part-boxes that do not seal but overlap will provide more ventilation. A couple of loose, half- full sandbags really help keep the plywood from resonating. > > > > Matt > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Building a large wooden box , covered with dumpster carpet, inside and out, should solve the problem. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > Too late... Lol > > > There was an old rotten yacht sitting next to my boat, I took it apart and burned all the wood... > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: jpronk1@ > > > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 15:25:16 -0800 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know a guy who was in a yard doing welding on his boat and people were complaining about the noise. The boat next to him had been sitting in the yard for years with storage bills unpaid. He put his welder inside that boat and ran the leads over to his boat and the complaints stopped > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/3/12, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: martin demers > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Received: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 6:14 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try that staple to some old plywood > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 23:12:14 +0000 > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carpet also makes an excellent sound barrier, and is free from dumpsters. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are sound insulating panels, of both fibreglass and rock-wool. The heavy, spongy rock wool is better... "Acoustic and fire bat - AFB". It will reduce the high frequency noise, like VW bug, and make it a low rumbly quieter sound like a sedan. Don't build it wind-tight or it will overheat. Best to have panels that prevent line of sight to the engine -- requiring the sound to bounce on the panels -- but without the panels meeting at edges so air can slip between panels and move past the engine easily. Alternately, if the engine uses a fan-flywheel-magneto, like many do, duct fresh air from outside the enclosure to this fan so the engine sucks fresh air from outside the box, keeping itself cool. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:53:14 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The noise comes from everywhere on that small Brigg & Stratton motor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try the barrel trick to see... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27810|26545|2012-03-07 14:42:14|martin demers|Re: Project planning|Scott, I just dont know how to trim text... Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: audeojude@... Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 19:36:04 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning just wow.. how many pages of text just to reply "yes i will". lets work at trimming our posts a bit. I didn't trim this post just to make a point :) scott ps.. Martin.. though I picked your reply to comment on my message is more intended for everyone. I just scrolled through 20 pages of text to read about 4 paragraphs worth of text. In mylast digest --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Yes I will. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:46:00 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make sure to leave openings for air to move through. Two separate part-boxes that do not seal but overlap will provide more ventilation. A couple of loose, half- full sandbags really help keep the plywood from resonating. > > > > Matt > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Building a large wooden box , covered with dumpster carpet, inside and out, should solve the problem. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > Too late... Lol > > > There was an old rotten yacht sitting next to my boat, I took it apart and burned all the wood... > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: jpronk1@ > > > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 15:25:16 -0800 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know a guy who was in a yard doing welding on his boat and people were complaining about the noise. The boat next to him had been sitting in the yard for years with storage bills unpaid. He put his welder inside that boat and ran the leads over to his boat and the complaints stopped > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/3/12, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: martin demers > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Received: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 6:14 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try that staple to some old plywood > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 23:12:14 +0000 > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carpet also makes an excellent sound barrier, and is free from dumpsters. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are sound insulating panels, of both fibreglass and rock-wool. The heavy, spongy rock wool is better... "Acoustic and fire bat - AFB". It will reduce the high frequency noise, like VW bug, and make it a low rumbly quieter sound like a sedan. Don't build it wind-tight or it will overheat. Best to have panels that prevent line of sight to the engine -- requiring the sound to bounce on the panels -- but without the panels meeting at edges so air can slip between panels and move past the engine easily. Alternately, if the engine uses a fan-flywheel-magneto, like many do, duct fresh air from outside the enclosure to this fan so the engine sucks fresh air from outside the box, keeping itself cool. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:53:14 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think there is much noise coming from the exhaust(I could be wrong) since I installed a Ford Tempo muffler > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The noise comes from everywhere on that small Brigg & Stratton motor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try the barrel trick to see... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:44:48 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience in boat building yet; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I bought a steel classic(37ft) 4 years ago on Ontario for a real cheap price( not everybody is willing or has time to restore an old boat) and had it transport in the Montreal area 2 years ago(needed the money to do that and find the person who could do the transport for an affordable price) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a marina where I could work and weld my boat but they dont have 220V so I bought a gas welder. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I make too much noise with the welder so I can only weld during the week because during summer time they do their money the weekends with the marina and the camping so if I work during the week for many weeks I dont have much time left to work on my boat and if the time available it is raining...no comments... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know anybody with a little intelligence would tell me to find > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > another place wich is what I want to do but every time you move such a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > beast(18000lbs) it cost $$$$$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had time to do some work in 2 years like making and installing skeg and rudder, dropping the little diesel in, and making a trailer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I find the right place to do the work maybe the magic will come...lol... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This was my experience till now, this will give you another point of view > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, sailor on the hard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:17:34 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, Brent's book, Alex video, Carl's pictures CD, group's files/pictures section, Brent's advices in this group and now Kim's pictorial will give you the BIG (and even detailed) picture about Origami boatbuilding. Enough to start thinking about building a boat ;). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I like about such type of discussions, that it does not matter who is right and who is wrong (there is no such things here). What DOES matter is the difference in the opinions and experiences. Everyone could choose what suits best for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your position, I'd get Brent's book (I really, really wish it had > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > been around when I built my boat), get Alex video and buy the plans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BS36 if you will have company BS31 if you plan to sail alone, BS26 if > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you'er skint or just like small boats. The smaller the boat, the more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > likely you are to succeed. Then buy some steel, angle grinder, buzz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > box and a cutting torch. All the tools are readily available second > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hand and if you by good second hand industrial tools you'll be able to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sell them again for about what you paid for them. Cutting torch you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > could even just hire to do the plating and then use the angle grinder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but I'd want to buy mine. I'd also follow Brent's plans and advise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > religiously as you do not know enough to change things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27811|27811|2012-03-07 15:32:16|wild_explorer|Keeping group's messages organized|See Scott what you have done? Another 4 pages to read ;) If to talk seriously, it is inconvenient to trim messages on mobile devices - too much work with questionable results. I usually trim messages on a computer, almost never on mobile device. So, it is up to people who use computer to help others to keep messages shorter. Another things - if discussion goes Off-Topic, it is better to start NEW discussion. This way it would not be linked to Original one. Basically, it is all Yahoo fault. What do you want for FREE?? ;-) Re: Project planning just wow.. how many pages of text just to reply "yes i will". lets work at trimming our posts a bit. I didn't trim this post just to make a point :) scott ps.. Martin.. though I picked your reply to comment on my message is more intended for everyone. I just scrolled through 20 pages of text to read about 4 paragraphs worth of text. In mylast digest| 27812|26545|2012-03-07 15:34:27|brentswain38|Re: Project planning|As long as the hole leaving your drum is the same size as the exhaust pipe , there is no increase in back pressure. A flapper makes no measurable addition to back pressure. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Long time, hope all's well. >   >   > Re: Project planning Posted by: "brentswain38" Fri Mar 2, 2012 11:44 am (PST) > > > I've heard that running the exhaust from your gas welder into a buried 45 gallon steel drum almost eliminates the sound. > > brentswain38@... HYPERLINK "http://profiles.yahoo.com/brentswain38"brentswain38 > I heard of the same thing to quiet down a stationary engine, but wouldn't you have issues with back pressure? > Wouldn't want to screw it up. > What are the considerations here and would you not need engine spec's to know your not blowing valves (or whatever), > or would it just be a matter of plumbing it for the same size as your engine exhaust, or maybe doubling the size of the plumbing to > reduce backpressure? > 　 > Another potential issue maybe the back pressure that an exhaust flapper  coming out of the burried barrel adds to the system?? > Or is it best just to use a tin can over the final exhaust from the burried barrel so > you can shoot into the air as you fire up the jenny? >   > Cheers, > Shane > 　Hi Brent, > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27813|27808|2012-03-07 15:41:35|brentswain38|Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from water-based rec|Canadian beavers , introduced to Chile, are considered a nuisance there. What they have done is created huge wetlands , drastically improving wildlife habitat, contained huge amounts of what would have been runoff water , greatly enhancing the supply during droughts, and offered a huge supply of free, very tasty meat. Pheasants and Hungarian partridge have all been introduced to North America as well as the Japanese oyster. All are getting along fine with the local wildlife --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good.Dog Whelks,which react badly to TBT,are a nuisance to fishermen because they make holes in fihing nets.Similarly we have a problem in the UK consequent upon some ecoidiots releasing mink into the environment from fur farms.These have decimated the w3ater vole and other populations resulting in a lot of public concern.However water voles cause a lot of bank damage to canals so their absence is not always regretted by canal lengthmen. > cheers > Andy Airey > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27814|27808|2012-03-07 16:08:14|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from water-based rec|Brent, I have to take exception to your post. The oyster parasite MSX which has decimated the oyster industry on the East Coast of the US has been traced back to the introduction of Japanese oysters (C. gigas) into Barnegat Bay, NJ for research by Dr. Thurlow C. Nelson back in the 30s. I seem to remember that he also classified Crassostrea virginica better known as the Eastern or Virginia Oyster. My family's farming of oysters can be traced back to the late 1700s and I will be the last generation to have worked that tradition. R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:42 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from water-based rec Canadian beavers , introduced to Chile, are considered a nuisance there. What they have done is created huge wetlands , drastically improving wildlife habitat, contained huge amounts of what would have been runoff water , greatly enhancing the supply during droughts, and offered a huge supply of free, very tasty meat. Pheasants and Hungarian partridge have all been introduced to North America as well as the Japanese oyster. All are getting along fine with the local wildlife [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27815|27811|2012-03-08 06:17:50|mkriley48|Re: Keeping group's messages organized|just TURN OFF quoting! mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > See Scott what you have done? Another 4 pages to read ;) > > If to talk seriously, it is inconvenient to trim messages on mobile devices - too much work with questionable results. I usually trim messages on a computer, almost never on mobile device. So, it is up to people who use computer to help others to keep messages shorter. > > Another things - if discussion goes Off-Topic, it is better to start NEW discussion. This way it would not be linked to Original one. > > Basically, it is all Yahoo fault. What do you want for FREE?? ;-) > > > > Re: Project planning > > just wow.. how many pages of text just to reply "yes i will". > lets work at trimming our posts a bit. I didn't trim this post just to make a > point :) > scott > ps.. Martin.. though I picked your reply to comment on my message is more > intended for everyone. I just scrolled through 20 pages of text to read about 4 > paragraphs worth of text. In mylast digest > | 27816|27811|2012-03-08 08:38:22|scott|Re: Keeping group's messages organized|I know... sometimes after scrolling though pages and pages and pages of old stuff to read one or two new lines, I'm so frustrated that I'm tempted to make one line replies to every one of them and just pass the joy back to everyone till the point it becomes unbearable for everyone. I haven't and probably won't but it does drive me nuts. I can understand forgetting once in a while. I do it, but when it is all the time it to me indicates just a lack of consideration or unwillingness to put forth that couple of percent more effort it takes to learn how or to just do it. For those using cell phones. I understand it is harder to trim using them but it is possible. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > See Scott what you have done? Another 4 pages to read ;) > > If to talk seriously, it is inconvenient to trim messages on mobile devices - too much work with questionable results. I usually trim messages on a computer, almost never on mobile device. So, it is up to people who use computer to help others to keep messages shorter. > > Another things - if discussion goes Off-Topic, it is better to start NEW discussion. This way it would not be linked to Original one. > > Basically, it is all Yahoo fault. What do you want for FREE?? ;-) > > > | 27817|27811|2012-03-08 11:50:13|wild_explorer|Re: Keeping group's messages organized|I do not see such settings in member's profile (settings). May be group's administrator can do it. Without quoting, you need to open 2 messages (responding and the one you respond to) and copy quoted text from original into your message. Again, it is OK on a computer, not on mobile devices. Kind of dead end... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > just TURN OFF quoting! > > mike > | 27818|27811|2012-03-08 13:10:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Keeping group's messages organized|It sounds like you should stop using a mobile device then..... On 9/03/2012 5:50 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > I do not see such settings in member's profile (settings). May be > group's administrator can do it. > > Without quoting, you need to open 2 messages (responding and the one > you respond to) and copy quoted text from original into your message. > Again, it is OK on a computer, not on mobile devices. Kind of dead end... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "mkriley48" > wrote: > > > > just TURN OFF quoting! > > > > mike > > > > | 27819|4244|2012-03-08 13:54:30|GP|Dry Exhaust|Dry exhaust is now finished. Apparently, just a flapper will prevent water getting into the engine (of course the down pipe and loop inside the engine room also) prevents water coming in. Just wondering if there is any other precaution. Regarding a flapper. I saw 2 types. One just a piece of rubber attached by a clamp on the outside of the exhaust pipe and the other that inserts inside the exhaust pipe. thanks Gary| 27820|27811|2012-03-08 17:52:48|wild_explorer|Re: Keeping group's messages organized|It is almost the same as to ask Yahoo to switch the group to Text-Only mode without advertising and stop showing band-hungry pictures and video on the pages, just because you have 9.6K connection speed ;)) You can get NEW pay-as-you-go phone which cost <$50 with a month-by-month plan ~$25 for voice, web, text. NEW laptop is ~$300-400 + need to find WiFi. Looks like unreasonable request for some people... ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > It sounds like you should stop using a mobile device then..... > | 27821|27093|2012-03-08 20:03:24|wild_explorer|Satellite phones (Re: radio)|Does anybody have more information on Amateur Radio satellites? I read Wiki, but it is unclear if it possible to use it on a boat and for what (voice, data)? Is it for ham radio only?| 27822|4244|2012-03-09 18:01:31|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust|As long as it's under water, the outside rubber flap is best. The stainless check valve makes a lot of noise. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Dry exhaust is now finished. Apparently, just a flapper will prevent water getting into the engine (of course the down pipe and loop inside the engine room also) prevents water coming in. Just wondering if there is any other precaution. > > Regarding a flapper. I saw 2 types. One just a piece of rubber attached by a clamp on the outside of the exhaust pipe and the other that inserts inside the exhaust pipe. > > thanks > Gary > | 27823|27808|2012-03-09 18:05:13|brentswain38|Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from water-based rec|Original west coast oysters were tiny and not that plentiful. Now the beaches are covered with much larger Japanese oysters, in huge amounts. Different strokes for different areas. What is good in one place is bad in another. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jay K. Jeffries" wrote: > > Brent, > > I have to take exception to your post. The oyster parasite MSX which has > decimated the oyster industry on the East Coast of the US has been traced > back to the introduction of Japanese oysters (C. gigas) into Barnegat Bay, > NJ for research by Dr. Thurlow C. Nelson back in the 30s. I seem to > remember that he also classified Crassostrea virginica better known as the > Eastern or Virginia Oyster. My family's farming of oysters can be traced > back to the late 1700s and I will be the last generation to have worked that > tradition. > > R/Jay > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:42 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from > water-based rec > > > > > > Canadian beavers , introduced to Chile, are considered a nuisance there. > What they have done is created huge wetlands , drastically improving > wildlife habitat, contained huge amounts of what would have been runoff > water , greatly enhancing the supply during droughts, and offered a huge > supply of free, very tasty meat. > Pheasants and Hungarian partridge have all been introduced to North America > as well as the Japanese oyster. All are getting along fine with the local > wildlife > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27824|26545|2012-03-09 20:53:22|Maxime Camirand|Re: Project planning|I don't know why anyone would choose to work in a marina. I've always found them hostile to do-it-yourself types, and extremely expensive. It seems like a much better idea to find a corner of an industrial yard in which to work, then just truck your boat to the water when you're done. Regards, Max On 1 March 2012 15:30, martin demers wrote: > Worst: not only welding but also sandblasting...lol > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:52:10 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project planning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >      Martin is absolutely right. I talked to several marina's harbor masters and first questions were: > > > > - how long will you project take? > > - how many days per week will you be working? > > - how much noise will you create? > > - what would you be doing? > > > > When you say WELDING, that raise red flag right away (fire hazard, smoke, nose (grinding, banging, etc). Possible overload of electrical system. More likely harbor master will offer you to rent some shop area if it is available (separate from other businesses because of fire hazard). Not cheap! > > > > Most marinas do not allow any welding in a slip at all. > > > > You REALLY DO NOT WANT to make live-aboard's and harbor master your enemies... You will end up with your project on hands with no place to go in no time ;( > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > >> > >> At this marina they wont let me do that, > >> Too much trouble for them! > >> They dont like to have someone , on their property, with a long term project. > >> > >> Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 27825|27808|2012-03-10 04:41:08|Denis Buggy|Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from water-based rec|Brent my neighbour is a man called Tommy Ring he exports machinery all over the world he and his staff are more than capable of washing to spotless condition any plant or machinery he might have -- however he must ship equipment to a co based in southern England who charge him 4000-00 stg to wash equipment to Australian standards -- it is also insured against rejection as the machine cannot be washed in Australia as you would then distribute the unwanted flora and fauna and what ever else came with it onto the ground in Australia along with a few hundred of gallons of water to make sure it grew - sending 40 tons of equipment on a ferry to another country to wash it is not cheap - but it is obviously important to do so . many of our rivers are polluted with a Dutch mussel which arrived on second-hand steel river cruisers the "zebra mussel " there is not a country on earth which would not like to turn back the eco clock just 100 years would do out of the millions of years as we only started to wreck this planet lately . Denis Buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 11:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from water-based rec Original west coast oysters were tiny and not that plentiful. Now the beaches are covered with much larger Japanese oysters, in huge amounts. Different strokes for different areas. What is good in one place is bad in another. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jay K. Jeffries" wrote: > > Brent, > > I have to take exception to your post. The oyster parasite MSX which has > decimated the oyster industry on the East Coast of the US has been traced > back to the introduction of Japanese oysters (C. gigas) into Barnegat Bay, > NJ for research by Dr. Thurlow C. Nelson back in the 30s. I seem to > remember that he also classified Crassostrea virginica better known as the > Eastern or Virginia Oyster. My family's farming of oysters can be traced > back to the late 1700s and I will be the last generation to have worked that > tradition. > > R/Jay > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:42 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from > water-based rec > > > > > > Canadian beavers , introduced to Chile, are considered a nuisance there. > What they have done is created huge wetlands , drastically improving > wildlife habitat, contained huge amounts of what would have been runoff > water , greatly enhancing the supply during droughts, and offered a huge > supply of free, very tasty meat. > Pheasants and Hungarian partridge have all been introduced to North America > as well as the Japanese oyster. All are getting along fine with the local > wildlife > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27826|27826|2012-03-10 10:18:26|sitefix|KISS Log #1 Pre Build steel finally found|OK, 40' hot rolled steel finally found close by in a salvage yard. $1500.00 US per sheet. Described as "not new" but not in bad shape. What should I look for?? any hazards, tell tales of "bad steel"?? Should I be concerned with history, and manufacture's location?? I have been putzn about long enough. Beat myself up over what size to build, from the 31 to 36 to the 40'. all with pros and cons for my situation. with the 40' sheets landing so close to my back yard,(15 miles away) it is kinda like a kick in the pants to get started. With the help of Brent and the group, I am confident that i can pull this together (pardon the pun). I do have a location for building, no power but a diesel welder on hand. A big concern is putting in some extra mast supports for a possible split rig later if the single stick doesn't work out. KISS is the overall plan and strategy. Last time "the mate" was out, she pulled a shoulder on a recovery in a MOB drill. So, I need to keep things in mind for her. I am gonna need some real help and problems solvers. So many variables, and I am used to working in a highly defined arena. I have had the pleasure of PM with a few here, chatting and dreaming. I am looking forward to meeting some others as this comes together. So, Step one, please help load me with some ammo, how critical do I need to be surveying the steel prior to purchase?? what do I need to know and be on the look out for at this stage???| 27827|27827|2012-03-10 10:54:27|martin|Used Steel|I had a piece of sheet that was old and had a lot of rust on it that I used for Prairie Maid's pilot house top. I figured the sand blasting would remove any small pitting. If you look closely the imperfections are exagerated by the final shiny paint coat. Be aware that those types of things will be very much on disply once painted. Depending on how critical you are going to be of the final look, that is something to consider when looking at used steel. As long as it is only cosmetic then it's placement on the finished boat is a personal matter. Do keep in mind that down the road the resale of your investment may be compromised. AS Brent always has said, you don't have to spend a lot of money to build a good cruising boat and you certainly don't have to settle for an ugly boat. Martin..| 27828|27827|2012-03-10 14:56:36|brentswain38|Re: Used Steel|Pitting gives you a good bite for paint and it can be easily faired, with only a few thou of fairing thickness. . On one 36 I built , the owner bought 5X10 ft sheets of rusty ten guage for $12 a sheet. We made the decks up , then he had the panels sandblasted and primed before we put them in. Being deck panels with only flat , non skid paint on them ,the slight pitting didn't matter. Saved him a lot of cash. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > I had a piece of sheet that was old and had a lot of rust on it that I used for Prairie Maid's pilot house top. I figured the sand blasting would remove any small pitting. If you look closely the imperfections are exagerated by the final shiny paint coat. Be aware that those types of things will be very much on disply once painted. Depending on how critical you are going to be of the final look, that is something to consider when looking at used steel. As long as it is only cosmetic then it's placement on the finished boat is a personal matter. Do keep in mind that down the road the resale of your investment may be compromised. AS Brent always has said, you don't have to spend a lot of money to build a good cruising boat and you certainly don't have to settle for an ugly boat. > Martin.. > | 27829|27808|2012-03-10 15:05:09|brentswain38|Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from water-based rec|When someone complained about Asian carp in the Mississippi, I suggested that the easiest way to run anything to near extinction , is to find a commercial use for it, then allow uncontrolled harvesting of it. There was a company in BC called West Coast Reduction, which turned fish guts, etc into fish fertilizer. If they set up shop to turn Asian carp into fertilizer, it would reduce drastically the chemical fertilizers which have turned a huge portion of the gulf of Mexico into a dead zone. Perhaps the same could be done with Zebra Mussels. It would also be a good source of cash for any kid, or homeless person who wanted to harvest them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > Brent > my neighbour is a man called Tommy Ring he exports machinery all over the world he and his staff are more than capable of washing to spotless condition any plant or machinery he might have -- however he must ship equipment to a co based in southern England who charge him 4000-00 stg to wash equipment to Australian standards -- it is also insured against rejection as the machine cannot be washed in Australia as you would then distribute the unwanted flora and fauna and what ever else came with it onto the ground in Australia along with a few hundred of gallons of water to make sure it grew - sending 40 tons of equipment on a ferry to another country to wash it is not cheap - but it is obviously important to do so . > many of our rivers are polluted with a Dutch mussel which arrived on second-hand steel river cruisers the "zebra mussel " > there is not a country on earth which would not like to turn back the eco clock just 100 years would do out of the millions of years as we only started to wreck this planet lately . Denis Buggy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 11:05 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from water-based rec > > > > Original west coast oysters were tiny and not that plentiful. Now the beaches are covered with much larger Japanese oysters, in huge amounts. Different strokes for different areas. What is good in one place is bad in another. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jay K. Jeffries" wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > I have to take exception to your post. The oyster parasite MSX which has > > decimated the oyster industry on the East Coast of the US has been traced > > back to the introduction of Japanese oysters (C. gigas) into Barnegat Bay, > > NJ for research by Dr. Thurlow C. Nelson back in the 30s. I seem to > > remember that he also classified Crassostrea virginica better known as the > > Eastern or Virginia Oyster. My family's farming of oysters can be traced > > back to the late 1700s and I will be the last generation to have worked that > > tradition. > > > > R/Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:42 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The potential effects of antifouling paints from > > water-based rec > > > > > > > > > > > > Canadian beavers , introduced to Chile, are considered a nuisance there. > > What they have done is created huge wetlands , drastically improving > > wildlife habitat, contained huge amounts of what would have been runoff > > water , greatly enhancing the supply during droughts, and offered a huge > > supply of free, very tasty meat. > > Pheasants and Hungarian partridge have all been introduced to North America > > as well as the Japanese oyster. All are getting along fine with the local > > wildlife > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27830|27826|2012-03-10 15:09:28|brentswain38|Re: KISS Log #1 Pre Build steel finally found|If a torch cuts it cleanly, with no blowback , there is no lamination problem. You could weld a piece of mils steel to it with 6011 .and try break it with a hammer, to make sure it is not some kind of high tensile material. There are also tests available to determine what kind of steel it is. Then , go for it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > OK, > 40' hot rolled steel finally found close by in a salvage yard. $1500.00 US per sheet. > Described as "not new" but not in bad shape. > What should I look for?? any hazards, tell tales of "bad steel"?? > Should I be concerned with history, and manufacture's location?? > > I have been putzn about long enough. Beat myself up over what size to build, from the 31 to 36 to the 40'. all with pros and cons for my situation. with the 40' sheets landing so close to my back yard,(15 miles away) it is kinda like a kick in the pants to get started. > > With the help of Brent and the group, I am confident that i can pull this together (pardon the pun). I do have a location for building, no power but a diesel welder on hand. > > A big concern is putting in some extra mast supports for a possible split rig later if the single stick doesn't work out. KISS is the overall plan and strategy. Last time "the mate" was out, she pulled a shoulder on a recovery in a MOB drill. So, I need to keep things in mind for her. > > I am gonna need some real help and problems solvers. So many variables, and I am used to working in a highly defined arena. I have had the pleasure of PM with a few here, chatting and dreaming. I am looking forward to meeting some others as this comes together. > > So, > Step one, please help load me with some ammo, how critical do I need to be surveying the steel prior to purchase?? what do I need to know and be on the look out for at this stage??? > | 27831|27093|2012-03-12 01:15:44|john dean|Ham Satellites|Ham satellites are used as releys for vhf and uhf channels. You might be able to talk to someone in Flordia from BC on Ham 2meters by using a 2meter reley.  If you were to use a comerical satellite telephone you could just call someone or use the internet (assuming you pay the charges) Get you ham licence, you will have lots of fun. KB7HNF qrpmm  --- On Thu, 3/8/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Satellite phones (Re: radio) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 8:03 PM Does anybody have more information on Amateur Radio satellites? I read Wiki, but it is unclear if it possible to use it on a boat and for what (voice, data)? Is it for ham radio only? ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27832|27832|2012-03-12 10:24:57|balljaseball|rigging|does anybody know approximatly, what kind of force it takes to "lay over flat" a bs31? thanks,jason| 27833|4244|2012-03-12 12:57:32|martin demers|Re: Dry Exhaust|Brent, What is the best way to make that rubber flap? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 23:01:30 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Dry Exhaust As long as it's under water, the outside rubber flap is best. The stainless check valve makes a lot of noise. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Dry exhaust is now finished. Apparently, just a flapper will prevent water getting into the engine (of course the down pipe and loop inside the engine room also) prevents water coming in. Just wondering if there is any other precaution. > > Regarding a flapper. I saw 2 types. One just a piece of rubber attached by a clamp on the outside of the exhaust pipe and the other that inserts inside the exhaust pipe. > > thanks > Gary > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27834|4244|2012-03-13 17:25:47|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust|I cut it out of the sidewall of a tire. I welded a piece of ss flat to a piece of stainles tube and bolt the flap to the ss flat and hose clamp the ss tube into the radiator hose exhaust. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > What is the best way to make that rubber flap? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 23:01:30 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Dry Exhaust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As long as it's under water, the outside rubber flap is best. The stainless check valve makes a lot of noise. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > > > Dry exhaust is now finished. Apparently, just a flapper will prevent water getting into the engine (of course the down pipe and loop inside the engine room also) prevents water coming in. Just wondering if there is any other precaution. > > > > > > Regarding a flapper. I saw 2 types. One just a piece of rubber attached by a clamp on the outside of the exhaust pipe and the other that inserts inside the exhaust pipe. > > > > > > thanks > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27835|27835|2012-03-14 17:25:48|brentswain38|Headlight|I found those LED flash lights have got so bright, they are more like a pocket spotlight. They light up the shore from a hundred yards away. I plan to put a short piece of ss boiler tubing on my bow pulpit to hold one as a headlight, for getting into port on dark nights. Stainless boiler tubing is just the right diameter for a snug fit on one. I'll snap the lanyard on as an added precaution against losing it overboard. This should clearly show me any boats, logs , etc ahead of me when entering an anchorage. My car headlights put there simply kept burning out.| 27836|27835|2012-03-14 23:58:23|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: Headlight LED|Less then $50.00 and free shipping from China. 24 Watt led  headlight 12 volt.  Probably equivalent to 24 X 6  = 2 car headlamps http://www.ebay.com/itm/260899850099?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_3642wt_1037%c2%a0 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27837|27835|2012-03-15 12:36:06|brentswain38|Re: Headlight LED|Mine cost me $12 in the fasteners place behind the Driftwood mall in Courtenay, a great source of LED lighting. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > Less then $50.00 and free shipping from China. 24 Watt led �headlight 12 volt. �Probably equivalent to 24 X 6 �= 2 car headlamps > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/260899850099?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_3642wt_1037%c3%af%c2%bf%c2%bd > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27838|27835|2012-03-15 23:02:56|john dean|Batteries for LED flashlights|I was very happy with my Surefire LED flashlight until I needed batteries. I have found the Lithium 123A batteries for 8 to 10$ each locally and 1 or 2 $ each on the web. It seems these batteries just quickly go dead. When they die they just quickly go dead, no warning. Today, I was looking at some 20$ LED flashlight that put out 40 Lumens and use AA's. These were no name flashlights. There must be a good reason to use expensive batteries but I do not know what the reason is at the monent. John --- On Thu, 3/15/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Headlight LED To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 15, 2012, 12:36 PM Mine cost me $12 in the fasteners place behind the Driftwood mall in Courtenay, a great source of LED lighting. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > Less then $50.00 and free shipping from China. 24 Watt led �headlight 12 volt. �Probably equivalent to 24 X 6 �= 2 car headlamps > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/260899850099?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_3642wt_1037%c3%af%c2%bf%c2%bd > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27839|27835|2012-03-16 08:11:59|Matt Malone|Electric Fires in Vehicles|We had a thread a while ago about electric propulsion in boats. I generally agree is it valuable direction to explode, however, there are safety concerns with having a large energy capacity in a battery bank in an enclosed volume in which you also sleep. This is an article about the Chevy Volt. I point out the advantage battery powered cars have over battery powered boats is, in the worst case, there is the option of getting out of the vehicle and standing at the side of the road -- the only safety gear one needs to access is a door and your own two feet. http://autos.sympatico.ca/auto-news/10301/more-volt-post-crash-fires-deepen-nhtsa-probe Now, with a boat, the mechanism of failure/damage/incident would be different of course. I found it particularly interesting that the vehicle caught fire later in the parking lot. This might be one of those rare flip a coin and it lands on its edge things, but clearly it can happen. Another advantage is, one can park their recently incident-ed electric car at the end of the driveway and get a good night's sleep in the house, certain that it will not light the house on fire, and insurance will pay for the car if it burns. In a boat, a battery "incident" may happen in nice weather, at an anchorage, with a human-involved accidental short of some sort, however, incidents would be more likely when the boat is tossing, possibly because something else becomes un-stowed and starts bashing the batteries. It is hard to make a not-running diesel engine or diesel tank catch fire by hitting it with a sledgehammer, whereas heat, smoke, and likely sparks are the inevitable outcome with a battery. A large battery bank just makes more to impact, and more energy to release. Automotive batteries in the engine compartment of cars have been complicating car fires since they were invented. At least when they are more central to the cause of the fire, it is a smaller battery than in an electric vehicle, and it is in the engine compartment, which is more isolated from the passenger compartment. BTW, I would buy a Volt, because I have a long driveway, and gas prices are just way too high. I will just keep in mind that it could turn into a giant road flare if given sufficient cause. I am not so certain if I would feel the same if my kids were strap-into-carseat age still. Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27840|27835|2012-03-16 08:21:30|scott|Re: Batteries for LED flashlights|I did a search on led flood lights on ebay and saw some of the same floods for around 50 dollars including shipping. they are IP68 rated so should be waterproof. at 20 watts or around 1.8 amps at 12 volts they put out 1700 lumen. Form factor of around 6"x4"x4". My spreader lights have filled up with water and need replacing.. I was thinking these would work great as spreader lights. Or I could attach one to the bottom of my bowsprit as a forward looking headlight. From under deck level in front of the boat there should be very little light reflected back at me. Just some thoughts. http://www.ebay.com/itm/20W-LED-FloodLight-Wash-Light-Cool-White-85-240V-IP68-/160577572248?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25632b4d98 I think I would like the warm white version of these though. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john dean wrote: > > I was very happy with my Surefire LED flashlight until I needed batteries. I have found the Lithium 123A batteries for 8 to 10$ each locally and 1 or 2 $ each on the web. It seems these batteries just quickly go dead. When they die they just quickly go dead, no warning. > Today, I was looking at some 20$ LED flashlight that put out 40 Lumens and use AA's. These were no name flashlights. There must be a good reason to use expensive batteries but I do not know what the reason is at the monent. > John > | 27841|27835|2012-03-16 11:37:10|Darren Bos|Re: Electric Fires in Vehicles|Matt, This looks like it might be a result of a particular battery technology (maybe even manufacturer) as much as anything else. There are some lithium technologies that are riskier than others. Also, the article says that the fire was hot enough to damage a few nearby cars. In comparison anyone who has seen a gasoline powered car on fire will tell you that you can roast marshmallows from 50 yards away. So, I think batteries are just a different set of risks and you need to look at each battery chemistry/installation to know what those risks are (much like the difference between gasoline and diesel). In this case you need to know that some lithium batteries that have suffered a severe trauma can develop shorts that can caused problems, even delayed ones. To put things in perspective, roughly two out of every thousand internal combustion vehicles catch fire per year. 2.5 million Prius have been sold, in about fifteen minutes of googling I was able to find less than a dozen cases of Prii catching fire. Although, I probably didn't get close to discovering all the Prius fires, that number is 400X lower than that for internal combustion vehicles. In terms of risk for powering a boat my personal assessment of risk would rank gasoline as the most dangerous, then some kinds of battery chemistry/installations, then diesel, then many other kinds of battery power/installation; all of which can and do go up in flames given the right conditions. I think the real risk with battery power is that we don't yet have well a well established set of best standards for use and installation like those that keep most gasoline powered boats from exploding. Darren At 05:11 AM 16/03/2012, you wrote: > > > > >We had a thread a while ago about electric >propulsion in boats. I generally agree is it >valuable direction to explode, however, there >are safety concerns with having a large energy >capacity in a battery bank in an enclosed volume >in which you also sleep. This is an article >about the Chevy Volt. I point out the advantage >battery powered cars have over battery powered >boats is, in the worst case, there is the option >of getting out of the vehicle and standing at >the side of the road -- the only safety gear one >needs to access is a door and your own two feet. > >http://autos.sympatico.ca/auto-news/10301/more-volt-post-crash-fires-deepen-nhtsa-probe > >Now, with a boat, the mechanism of >failure/damage/incident would be different of >course. I found it particularly interesting that >the vehicle caught fire later in the parking >lot. This might be one of those rare flip a coin >and it lands on its edge things, but clearly it >can happen. Another advantage is, one can park >their recently incident-ed electric car at the >end of the driveway and get a good night's sleep >in the house, certain that it will not light the >house on fire, and insurance will pay for the >car if it burns. In a boat, a battery "incident" >may happen in nice weather, at an anchorage, >with a human-involved accidental short of some >sort, however, incidents would be more likely >when the boat is tossing, possibly because >something else becomes un-stowed and starts >bashing the batteries. It is hard to make a >not-running diesel engine or diesel tank catch >fire by hitting it with a sledgehammer, whereas >heat, smoke, and likely sparks are the >inevitable outcome with a battery. A large >battery bank just makes more to impact, and more >energy to release. Automotive batteries in the >engine compartment of cars have been >complicating car fires since they were invented. >At least when they are more central to the cause >of the fire, it is a smaller battery than in an >electric vehicle, and it is in the engine >compartment, which is more isolated from the passenger compartment. > >BTW, I would buy a Volt, because I have a long >driveway, and gas prices are just way too high. >I will just keep in mind that it could turn into >a giant road flare if given sufficient cause. I >am not so certain if I would feel the same if my >kids were strap-into-carseat age still. > >Matt > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27842|27835|2012-03-16 20:56:45|brentswain38|Re: Batteries for LED flashlights|The super bright LED flashlight does suck the Duracells down quicker. Think I'll switch to those dollar store 30 packs for$3.50. Cant go too far wrong at that price. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john dean wrote: > > I was very happy with my Surefire LED flashlight until I needed batteries. I have found the Lithium 123A batteries for 8 to 10$ each locally and 1 or 2 $ each on the web. It seems these batteries just quickly go dead. When they die they just quickly go dead, no warning. > Today, I was looking at some 20$ LED flashlight that put out 40 Lumens and use AA's. These were no name flashlights. There must be a good reason to use expensive batteries but I do not know what the reason is at the monent. > John > > --- On Thu, 3/15/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Headlight LED > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, March 15, 2012, 12:36 PM > > Mine cost me $12 in the fasteners place behind the Driftwood mall in Courtenay, a great source of LED lighting. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > > > Less then $50.00 and free shipping from China. 24 Watt led �headlight 12 volt. �Probably equivalent to 24 X 6 �= 2 car headlamps > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/260899850099?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_3642wt_1037%c3%af%c2%bf%c2%bd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27843|27835|2012-03-16 20:59:48|brentswain38|Re: Electric Fires in Vehicles|I wonder how many electric advocates take into account the huge cost of replacing that many batteries every few years. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > We had a thread a while ago about electric propulsion in boats. I generally agree is it valuable direction to explode, however, there are safety concerns with having a large energy capacity in a battery bank in an enclosed volume in which you also sleep. This is an article about the Chevy Volt. I point out the advantage battery powered cars have over battery powered boats is, in the worst case, there is the option of getting out of the vehicle and standing at the side of the road -- the only safety gear one needs to access is a door and your own two feet. > > http://autos.sympatico.ca/auto-news/10301/more-volt-post-crash-fires-deepen-nhtsa-probe > > > Now, with a boat, the mechanism of failure/damage/incident would be different of course. I found it particularly interesting that the vehicle caught fire later in the parking lot. This might be one of those rare flip a coin and it lands on its edge things, but clearly it can happen. Another advantage is, one can park their recently incident-ed electric car at the end of the driveway and get a good night's sleep in the house, certain that it will not light the house on fire, and insurance will pay for the car if it burns. In a boat, a battery "incident" may happen in nice weather, at an anchorage, with a human-involved accidental short of some sort, however, incidents would be more likely when the boat is tossing, possibly because something else becomes un-stowed and starts bashing the batteries. It is hard to make a not-running diesel engine or diesel tank catch fire by hitting it with a sledgehammer, whereas heat, smoke, and likely sparks are the inevitable outcome with a battery. A large battery bank just makes more to impact, and more energy to release. Automotive batteries in the engine compartment of cars have been complicating car fires since they were invented. At least when they are more central to the cause of the fire, it is a smaller battery than in an electric vehicle, and it is in the engine compartment, which is more isolated from the passenger compartment. > > BTW, I would buy a Volt, because I have a long driveway, and gas prices are just way too high. I will just keep in mind that it could turn into a giant road flare if given sufficient cause. I am not so certain if I would feel the same if my kids were strap-into-carseat age still. > > > Matt > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27844|27835|2012-03-16 23:04:48|Aaron|Re: Electric Fires in Vehicles|Go over to the electric boats group and see what thier answer is.   ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 4:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electric Fires in Vehicles   I wonder how many electric advocates take into account the huge cost of replacing that many batteries every few years. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > We had a thread a while ago about electric propulsion in boats. I generally agree is it valuable direction to explode, however, there are safety concerns with having a large energy capacity in a battery bank in an enclosed volume in which you also sleep. This is an article about the Chevy Volt. I point out the advantage battery powered cars have over battery powered boats is, in the worst case, there is the option of getting out of the vehicle and standing at the side of the road -- the only safety gear one needs to access is a door and your own two feet. > > http://autos.sympatico.ca/auto-news/10301/more-volt-post-crash-fires-deepen-nhtsa-probe > > > Now, with a boat, the mechanism of failure/damage/incident would be different of course. I found it particularly interesting that the vehicle caught fire later in the parking lot. This might be one of those rare flip a coin and it lands on its edge things, but clearly it can happen. Another advantage is, one can park their recently incident-ed electric car at the end of the driveway and get a good night's sleep in the house, certain that it will not light the house on fire, and insurance will pay for the car if it burns. In a boat, a battery "incident" may happen in nice weather, at an anchorage, with a human-involved accidental short of some sort, however, incidents would be more likely when the boat is tossing, possibly because something else becomes un-stowed and starts bashing the batteries. It is hard to make a not-running diesel engine or diesel tank catch fire by hitting it with a sledgehammer, whereas heat, smoke, and likely sparks are the inevitable outcome with a battery. A large battery bank just makes more to impact, and more energy to release. Automotive batteries in the engine compartment of cars have been complicating car fires since they were invented. At least when they are more central to the cause of the fire, it is a smaller battery than in an electric vehicle, and it is in the engine compartment, which is more isolated from the passenger compartment. > > BTW, I would buy a Volt, because I have a long driveway, and gas prices are just way too high. I will just keep in mind that it could turn into a giant road flare if given sufficient cause. I am not so certain if I would feel the same if my kids were strap-into-carseat age still. > > > Matt > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27845|27835|2012-03-17 00:06:11|Paul Wilson|Yacht fire.|I had two friends die of a fire on their yacht earlier this week. I don't know what happened but I speculate it was a problem with their propane system. They didn't have a diesel engine so a gasoline fire from their outboard could have been a possibility as well. There is no burn unit in Fiji and the hospital in Savusavu is shockingly bad. Knowing the authorities in Fiji and how they work, the truth will probably never been known. Something to think about..... I am going to double check the hoses to my propane stove and double check my propane solenoid at the bottle. It is common for people not to use a solenoid valve and due to inconvenience and habit, leave the gas on when they shouldn't. http://www.fijitimes.com/story.aspx?id=195940 Paul ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email -->| 27846|27835|2012-03-17 04:24:17|Denis Buggy|Re: Electric Fires in Vehicles|MATT EXPLODE WAS THE CORRECT WORD FUNNY HOW THE TRUTH WILL OUT ITSELF . previous posts mentioned the use of forklift batteries ect -- you can look up ball lightning on u tube and you will see references to ball lightning forming on submarine batteries and their switch gear when a storm passes overhead -- a large wooden table was placed in some control rooms of power stations for the staff to stand on as a storm front would raise static and ball lightning over a foot from the surfaces of the switch gear and controls in the control room -- when you add acid fumes corroding your lungs eyes and boat and a few drops of salt water will produce chlorine gas followed by an explosion -- batteries in boats are stuff of nightmares denis buggy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > We had a thread a while ago about electric propulsion in boats. I generally agree is it valuable direction to explode, however, there are safety concerns with having a large energy capacity in a battery bank in an enclosed volume in which you also sleep. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27847|27835|2012-03-17 08:29:29|scott|Re: Batteries for LED flashlights|I have LED flash lights all over the place. I love them. But for something like a light on the boat.. spreaders or head beam etc I want it wired to the battery banks that is charged by the solar panels. With a switch beside the helm or at the chart table to control it. Also that it is about 75 x as bright as a flash light. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The super bright LED flashlight does suck the Duracells down quicker. > Think I'll switch to those dollar store 30 packs for$3.50. Cant go too far wrong at that price. > | 27848|27835|2012-03-17 23:28:30|john dean|LED light strips|Scott check led light strips on leadingled dot com or Amazon. They hint these strips may be weather proof. I am using a 15 foot white light strip that I got on Amazon for about 15$. I got a roll of 24 gauge speaker wire to replace the 40 year old boat wire. As the current is very small large wire not necessary. I cut the 15 foot strip in two and ran them parrell. There are about 300 white led's in the 15 foot strip and they make a lot of light. I also made a very bright led anchor light that uses about 0.06 amps and has been out in the tropical elements for about 2 years. I burned it out due to hight voltage several times. Now I use resistors to keep the voltage to 70% of max forward voltage and still get lots of light. Good leding, John --- On Sat, 3/17/12, scott wrote: From: scott Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries for LED flashlights To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 8:29 AM I have LED flash lights all over the place. I love them. But for something like a light on the boat.. spreaders or head beam etc I want it wired to the battery banks that is charged by the solar panels. With a switch beside the helm or at the chart table to control it. Also that it is about 75 x as bright as a flash light. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The super bright LED flashlight does suck the Duracells down quicker. > Think I'll switch to those dollar store 30 packs for$3.50. Cant go too far wrong at that price. > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27849|27835|2012-03-18 00:59:24|Paul Wilson|Re: LED light strips|A lot of the LED lights you buy are made for 12 volt and are not regulated for the higher voltages on boats that can get to 15 volts when using special alternator regulators. At 14 or 15 volts, many LEDs will have a limited life and will burn out. The best LEDs have current or voltage regulators and some LEDs designed for boats can take as much as 30 volts without a problem. You may pay more for such an LED but it may be worth it if you don't want to design your own regulator. There are lots of designs for LED regulators on the net and a simple resistor may be sufficient if you aren't fussy and don't mind a varying brightness with voltage. If you want to full brightness over a max range, you will need to know the max current of the LED you are using. I used the first one here and it works well. http://www.simple-electronics.com/2011/09/simple-led-driver.html The resistor values given must be confirmed for your LED with an ammeter since there are so many types of LED now. The components are only a few dollars. Cheers, Paul On 18/03/2012 4:28 p.m., john dean wrote: > > Scott check led light strips on leadingled dot com or Amazon. They > hint these strips may be weather proof. I am using a 15 foot white > light strip that I got on Amazon for about 15$. > I got a roll of 24 gauge speaker wire to replace the 40 year old boat > wire. As the current is very small large wire not necessary. I cut the > 15 foot strip in two and ran them parrell. There are about 300 white > led's in the 15 foot strip and they make a lot of light. > I also made a very bright led anchor light that uses about 0.06 amps > and has been out in the tropical elements for about 2 years. I burned > it out due to hight voltage several times. Now I use resistors to keep > the voltage to 70% of max forward voltage and still get lots of light. > Good leding, John ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email --> > > | 27850|27835|2012-03-18 12:34:05|scott|Re: LED light strips|I have looked at these strips and thought that several of them on the bottom of the spreaders would be cool as spreader lights. However I don't have enough experience with them to know whether they are bright enough to illuminate the deck 20 feet below the spreaders. It would be great low profile design if it would work. My spreaders are from 2 inchs wide at the tip to about 7 inchs wide at the base and maybe 5 or 6 ft long. You could fit 3 or 4 of those strips side by side under there. I supposed you could even use red ones to light it up and not mess with your night vision. Any thoughts or experience on whether they would produce enough concentrated light to illuminate the deck area 20 feet away? Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john dean wrote: > > Scott check led light strips on leadingled dot com or Amazon. They hint these strips may be weather proof. I am using a 15 foot white light strip that I got on Amazon for about 15$. > I got a roll of 24 gauge speaker wire to replace the 40 year old boat wire. As the current is very small large wire not necessary. I cut the 15 foot strip in two and ran them parrell. There are about 300 white led's in the 15 foot strip and they make a lot of light. > I also made a very bright led anchor light that uses about 0.06 amps and has been out in the tropical elements for about 2 years. I burned it out due to hight voltage several times. Now I use resistors to keep the voltage to 70% of max forward voltage and still get lots of light. > Good leding, John > --- On Sat, 3/17/12, scott wrote: > | 27851|27835|2012-03-18 14:06:38|haidan|Re: LED light strips|I built a bunch of regulators and led lights using that same lm317 regulator from your link paul, I'm not sure if I put the wrong resistor in, I doubt it, not exactly rocket science but the leds burned themselves out within the year. I figured that it was the cheap leds themselves that caused the trouble not the regulator. I used ultrabright 5mm package leds not those SMD ones. I would imagine that the SMD ones handle themselves a little better at peak current than your run of the mill 5mm ones. I figured that the cost of buying the materials (leds, lm317, resistors, some sort of board to mount them, switch) plus the time I spent putting them all together ended up being about the same buying these: http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=644 which so far (it's been a year now) haven't given me any trouble they're very bright they have some sort of regulator on the back involving a chip, capacitors, resistors, they even have a diode bridge to dispense with polarity, lot's of other led lights on the market just have ballast or buck regulators. The warm white ones are pretty nice, not as nice as a oil lamp but far nicer than the stock blueish led lighting. I was planning on wiring up the switch and setting them into some epoxy with a piece of pipe sticking though for a mounting screw or something like, I'm still looking around for something to use as a mold to pour the epoxy into.| 27852|27835|2012-03-18 14:48:07|Paul Thompson|Re: LED light strips|Hi Haidan, Agree with your posting. Also take a look at Bebi http://www.bebi-electronics.com/ I've been using their products for two years now and have yet to have a failure. All of there fittings are regulated and reverse polarity protected. The warm whites are fantastic and give an ambiance very similar to an oil lamp. Take a poke around their website, even if you do not want to buy their product, there are some good ideas and info. Regards, Paul Thompson On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 7:06 AM, haidan wrote: > I built a bunch of regulators and led lights using that same lm317 regulator from your link paul, I'm not sure if I put the wrong resistor in, I doubt it, not exactly rocket science but the leds burned themselves out within the year. I figured that it was the cheap leds themselves that caused the trouble not the regulator. I used ultrabright 5mm package leds not those SMD ones. I would imagine that the SMD ones handle themselves a little better at peak current than your run of the mill 5mm ones. I figured that the cost of buying the materials (leds, lm317, resistors, some sort of board to mount them, switch) plus the time I spent putting them all together ended up being about the same buying these: http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=644 which so far (it's been a year now) haven't given me any trouble they're very bright they have some sort of regulator on the back involving a chip, capacitors, resistors, they even have a diode bridge to dispense with polarity, lot's of other led lights on the market just have ballast or buck regulators. The warm white ones are pretty nice, not as nice as a oil lamp but far nicer than the stock blueish led lighting. I was planning on wiring up the switch and setting them into some epoxy with a piece of pipe sticking though for a mounting screw or something like, I'm still looking around for something to use as a mold to pour the epoxy into. | 27853|27835|2012-03-18 15:43:09|Paul Wilson|Re: LED light strips|Bebi makes great stuff. I should have mentioned them. My friend had one on a delivery and when we were in the Caribbean among hundreds of boats, the Bebi anchor light was the brightest one. Mike from Bebi does a good write-up on the importance of LED regulation. http://www.bebi-electronics.com/regulator.html If adding a regulator, it is critical to get the current right when making your own regulator. You really need to know the rated current from a data sheet or measure the current at 12 volt so you can regulate for 15 volt or higher. Yes, it may be more cost effective to get the right LED lights in the first place. I got a deal on some nice 1 watt warm white spot lights but found out later they were only good to 14 volts so added the LM317 regulator. Parts were about $3. I have been told that most of the boats in the Pacific last year had LED failures. Scott, I don't think that the LED strips would be bright enough for spreader lamps. I would try one of the 1 Watt or 3 watt LEDs. There are some good bicycle LEDs available now that are also waterproof that you might be able to adapt to 12 volt. Look for the ones that use the Cree led or similar. A friendly electronic store will power up the different LEDs to show you what they are like. I have the standard crappy 10 watt quartz spreader light on to the foredeck. It is not too bright but I mounted two big spot lights that shine down the deck from a stern pulpit. It is really great at night to have the whole deck lit up on sail changes. I use the 55 watt car driving lamps. One spot light shines down the deck and one is angled up at the sails. A set of driving lights is very cheap but one day I will upgrade to LED. Current draw is a lot but they are normally only on for a few minutes at a time so it is no big deal. Cheers, Paul On 19/03/2012 7:48 a.m., Paul Thompson wrote: > > Hi Haidan, > > Agree with your posting. Also take a look at Bebi > http://www.bebi-electronics.com/ I've been using their products for > two years now and have yet to have a failure. All of there fittings > are regulated and reverse polarity protected. The warm whites are > fantastic and give an ambiance very similar to an oil lamp. Take a > poke around their website, even if you do not want to buy their > product, there are some good ideas and info. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email --> > > | 27854|27854|2012-03-18 16:08:58|Paul Thompson|Anchor winch cable|Hi Paul (Wilson) and Brent, I'm about to finally commission my "Brent Swain" type anchor winch. I need to decide on what type size and type of wire to use. I seem to remember that you said that you used galvanized wire and that you greased it. Can you please tell me more? And does not the grease get on everything that it comes near? Could you describe your set up? Brent, what are you using now? Could you describe your set up and outline your current thinking? Currently I'm thinking of 20M 8mm high tensile change (G4) as I've got it, then 60M of 8 or 6mm galv or stainless wire in 20M segments. The boat is 8ton disp. enough wire? Thanks in advance! -- Regards, Paul Thompson| 27855|27835|2012-03-18 19:22:18|john dean|LED light strips|Personally, I use headlamps, below deck and above deck. I have two 30$ headlamps and several 10$ headlamps all work well. --- On Sun, 3/18/12, scott wrote: From: scott Subject: [origamiboats] Re: LED light strips To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 18, 2012, 12:34 PM I have looked at these strips and thought that several of them on the bottom of the spreaders would be cool as spreader lights. However I don't have enough experience with them to know whether they are bright enough to illuminate the deck 20 feet below the spreaders. It would be great low profile design if it would work. My spreaders are from 2 inchs wide at the tip to about 7 inchs wide at the base and maybe 5 or 6 ft long. You could fit 3 or 4 of those strips side by side under there. I supposed you could even use red ones to light it up and not mess with your night vision. Any thoughts or experience on whether they would produce enough concentrated light to illuminate the deck area 20 feet away? Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john dean wrote: > > Scott check led light strips on leadingled dot com or Amazon. They hint these strips may be weather proof. I am using a 15 foot white light strip that I got on Amazon for about 15$. > I got a roll of 24 gauge speaker wire to replace the 40 year old boat wire. As the current is very small large wire not necessary. I cut the 15 foot strip in two and ran them parrell. There are about 300 white led's in the 15 foot strip and they make a lot of light. > I also made a very bright led anchor light that uses about 0.06 amps and has been out in the tropical elements for about 2 years. I burned it out due to hight voltage several times. Now I use resistors to keep the voltage to 70% of max forward voltage and still get lots of light. > Good leding, John > --- On Sat, 3/17/12, scott wrote: > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27856|27856|2012-03-19 01:05:56|badpirate36|stuffing box not driping|My stuffing box (new construction) is not leaking water at all, I've run the boat several hours and backed off the gland follower bolts(2) until they are loose(turn in your fingers loose) and still not a drip. after an hour running the hose is luke warm, the gland and gland follower is much warmer, but certainly not hot. Several small peaces(1/8"-1/4") of packing(waxy) have been ejected. Could the running in period be longer than two hours before the water makes it's way thru the packing material and begins dripping. Any thoughts?| 27857|27835|2012-03-19 12:11:05|scott|Re: LED light strips|I just ordered a 10 watt warm white led flood light fixture to test. At 19 dollars including shipping I figured I could use it elsewhere if it doesn't work as a spreader light and if it does I will buy a couple more Scott > > Scott, I don't think that the LED strips would be bright enough for > spreader lamps. I would try one of the 1 Watt or 3 watt LEDs. There > are some good bicycle LEDs available now that are also waterproof that > you might be able to adapt to 12 volt. Look for the ones that use the > Cree led or similar. A friendly electronic store will power up the > different LEDs to show you what they are like. I have the standard > crappy 10 watt quartz spreader light on to the foredeck. It is not too > bright but I mounted two big spot lights that shine down the deck from a > stern pulpit. It is really great at night to have the whole deck lit up > on sail changes. I use the 55 watt car driving lamps. One spot light > shines down the deck and one is angled up at the sails. A set of > driving lights is very cheap but one day I will upgrade to LED. Current > draw is a lot but they are normally only on for a few minutes at a time > so it is no big deal. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 19/03/2012 7:48 a.m., Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > Hi Haidan, > > > > Agree with your posting. Also take a look at Bebi > > http://www.bebi-electronics.com/ I've been using their products for > > two years now and have yet to have a failure. All of there fittings > > are regulated and reverse polarity protected. The warm whites are > > fantastic and give an ambiance very similar to an oil lamp. Take a > > poke around their website, even if you do not want to buy their > > product, there are some good ideas and info. > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email --> > > > > > | 27858|27856|2012-03-19 13:44:06|mkriley48|Re: stuffing box not driping|what kind of packing did you use? what type of stuffing box did you use? water is only used as a indicator of tightness it is not necessary. if you way overtightened the packing it will jam in there. you have to take it apart and loosen it up with a pick. The packing is just a matrix to keep the wax in place. I could tell you more when you answer these questions. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > My stuffing box (new construction) is not leaking water at all, I've run the boat several hours and backed off the gland follower bolts(2) until they are loose(turn in your fingers loose) and still not a drip. after an hour running the hose is luke warm, the gland and gland follower is much warmer, but certainly not hot. Several small peaces(1/8"-1/4") of packing(waxy) have been ejected. Could the running in period be longer than two hours before the water makes it's way thru the packing material and begins dripping. > > Any thoughts? > | 27859|27854|2012-03-19 14:43:18|brentswain38|Re: Anchor winch cable|Currently cruising in coral free BC waters I have 15 feet of 3/8th chain and 500 feet of half inch nylon braid. Works well here. Cruising the tropics I use3d 1/4 inch 7x19 stainless. As a winter in the tropics left a lot of meat hooks in the broken strands,I would go galvanized next time, as Paul seems to have had better luck with it. My galvanized 1/4 inch 7x19 main halyard , installed in Tonga in 2003 , is still going strong. A stainless one would have a lot of meat hooks in it in the first year. None in my galvanized halyard, after 9 years. What you suggest sounds good. Use what you have. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Hi Paul (Wilson) and Brent, > > I'm about to finally commission my "Brent Swain" type anchor winch. I > need to decide on what type size and type of wire to use. I seem to > remember that you said that you used galvanized wire and that you > greased it. Can you please tell me more? And does not the grease get > on everything that it comes near? Could you describe your set up? > > Brent, what are you using now? Could you describe your set up and > outline your current thinking? > > Currently I'm thinking of 20M 8mm high tensile change (G4) as I've got > it, then 60M of 8 or 6mm galv or stainless wire in 20M segments. The > boat is 8ton disp. enough wire? > > Thanks in advance! > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 27860|27856|2012-03-19 18:07:19|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: stuffing box not driping|Hi, when serving on sea going boats ,the practice was to allow water to run into the stern bilge ,this was then pumped overboard.When in port the glade was tightened so that no water leaked through .Before leaving port the gland was loosened to allow water to enter. When I retired I bought and live on a narrowboat ,the stern glade leaked and for several months i thought this was normal Whilst enjoying a pint of Irish wine(Guinness) in the local canal side pub I was informed this was not so and now have a dry stern .The gland is stuffed with packing and grease applied by a a screw pressure system ,not high tec but works. mikeafloat -----Original Message----- From: mkriley48 To: origamiboats Sent: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:44 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: stuffing box not driping what kind of packing did you use? what type of stuffing box did you use? water s only used as a indicator of tightness it is not necessary. if you way vertightened the packing it will jam in there. ou have to take it apart and loosen it up with a pick. The packing is just a atrix to keep the wax in place. could tell you more when you answer these questions. ike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: My stuffing box (new construction) is not leaking water at all, I've run the oat several hours and backed off the gland follower bolts(2) until they are oose(turn in your fingers loose) and still not a drip. after an hour running he hose is luke warm, the gland and gland follower is much warmer, but ertainly not hot. Several small peaces(1/8"-1/4") of packing(waxy) have been jected. Could the running in period be longer than two hours before the water akes it's way thru the packing material and begins dripping. Any thoughts? ----------------------------------- To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com o Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! roups Links Individual Email | Traditional http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27861|27856|2012-03-20 00:31:09|badpirate36|Re: stuffing box not driping|Thanx for responding mike, I didn't install the stuffing box, so I can't be certain of it's make. Although it looks exactly like a kahlenberg sb-500 that I surfed upon. The packing is flax Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > what kind of packing did you use? what type of stuffing box did you use? water is only used as a indicator of tightness it is not necessary. if you way overtightened the packing it will jam in there. > you have to take it apart and loosen it up with a pick. The packing is just a matrix to keep the wax in place. > I could tell you more when you answer these questions. > mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > My stuffing box (new construction) is not leaking water at all, I've run the boat several hours and backed off the gland follower bolts(2) until they are loose(turn in your fingers loose) and still not a drip. after an hour running the hose is luke warm, the gland and gland follower is much warmer, but certainly not hot. Several small peaces(1/8"-1/4") of packing(waxy) have been ejected. Could the running in period be longer than two hours before the water makes it's way thru the packing material and begins dripping. > > > > Any thoughts? > > > | 27862|27854|2012-03-20 02:22:11|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchor winch cable|Hi Paul, Sorry for not getting back to you sooner....the storm hitting Taranaki has knocked a lot of trees down and our power keeps going out. I would go for the 8mm or even go with 10 mm cable. You don't need the strength but it is easier to handle and the extra weight adds catenary. I found this helps my boat lie nicer on the anchor in waves and wind gusts. I broke 1/4 inch (6mm) cable once when the cable was kinked when the nicropress swage and eye got caught in some coral. I now do a large soft splice which is easy to do with the larger diameter cable. The eye splice I use is called a Hasty, Flemish or Molly Hogan splice and is very quick and easy to do. Some heat shrink or hose over the splice gives it a nice finish. I use the cheapest galv cable I can get. The kind that has a hemp or rope core is the best since it will absorb some of the grease and make the cable last longer. It normally has a looser lay and is easier to splice. My 36 footer is just over 10 tons loaded. I use about 75 feet (25 meters) of 3/8 chain and about 250 feet (75 meters) of cable. This allows me to easily anchor in about 75 feet (approx 25 m) of water without adding any extra rode. As you probably know, a lot of the lagoons in the South Pacific are at least 40 feet deep. I don't mind the weight since my winch is hydraulic. If I was pulling in by hand, I could cut back on the length of the chain a little. Either way, using cable is much lighter pulling in than all chain. In my opinion, nylon rode is unacceptable around coral. I keep the cable in one length and use a rolling (Prusik) Knot to hook a snubber on to the cable. A Prusik knot will grip even on the greasy 10mm cable. Using smaller cable, it may slip until some of the grease wears off. There is nothing stopping you from using shorter lengths of cable with eyes and it would easily allow changing or swapping one section at a time but I have never felt the need. The galv cable is so cheap I generally just change the whole length when needed. You could reverse it or shorten it a bit if you want to get more time out of it. I normally save a good 50 foot section of the old cable and keep it coiled below for emergencies. The grease is messy but better than having rust streaks, in my opinion. I use an old leather glove to feed it evenly on to the drum when bringing it in. Once it is all in the chain covers the cable so the grease doesn't get on sails or gear. When out, you just need to be aware of the greasy cable when on the foredeck but it is not really a problem. Greased up every once in awhile (6 months?), the cable should last at least two years in the tropics. I have had cheap chain last less. If you have enough fresh water to rinse everything down, it may last longer. I knew someone who had an old-style red-lead grease and his galv cable was ten years old. I have always used any automotive wheel grease and just worked it in with a rag. Having loose lay cheap galv cable helps. Marine greases that resist washout may last longer but they may not be worth the extra price. I have thought of trying different mixes of oil, grease and wax but need more time to experiment :). Best of luck, Paul On 19/03/2012 9:08 a.m., Paul Thompson wrote: > > Hi Paul (Wilson) and Brent, > > I'm about to finally commission my "Brent Swain" type anchor winch. I > need to decide on what type size and type of wire to use. I seem to > remember that you said that you used galvanized wire and that you > greased it. Can you please tell me more? And does not the grease get > on everything that it comes near? Could you describe your set up? > > Brent, what are you using now? Could you describe your set up and > outline your current thinking? > > Currently I'm thinking of 20M 8mm high tensile change (G4) as I've got > it, then 60M of 8 or 6mm galv or stainless wire in 20M segments. The > boat is 8ton disp. enough wire? > > Thanks in advance! > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > | 27863|27856|2012-03-20 12:03:23|mkriley48|Re: stuffing box not driping|ok, you have tightened it up too much and ruined the flax by squeezing the grease out of it. most likely you have 3 turns of packing in there. take the outer 2 out and replace. cut them ahead of time and have ready. if you can get a packing or seal puller, get it, it looks like a miniature corkscrew on a flexible shaft with a screwdriver handle. makes it easy. cut the packing around the shaft with a butt join with as little gap as possible. get some "WATERPUMP GREASE" it is hard to find but it is necessary for a good job. , smear it all over the packing and the ends get a little more. put them in the box pushing with just enough pressure to seat. tap the collar down A LITTLE and hand tighten the nuts evenly, should be no leaks. run the engine at half speed in gear and wait for a little water or 15 min. ADJUST WHILE RUNNING! DOUBLE nut the adjustment! you will need 1 or 2 more adjustments at maybe 10 hours and around 50 hours running time. then it will be good for YEARS without any adjustment and no water. always adjust running and better too loose than too tight. the packing can cut the shaft even flax. stay away from teflon packing it needs everything to be perfect to work right. pm if you have any questions mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > Thanx for responding mike, > I didn't install the stuffing box, so I can't be certain of it's make. Although it looks exactly like a kahlenberg sb-500 that I surfed upon. The packing is flax > Tom > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > what kind of packing did you use? what type of stuffing box did you use? water is only used as a indicator of tightness it is not necessary. if you way overtightened the packing it will jam in there. > > you have to take it apart and loosen it up with a pick. The packing is just a matrix to keep the wax in place. > > I could tell you more when you answer these questions. > > mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > My stuffing box (new construction) is not leaking water at all, I've run the boat several hours and backed off the gland follower bolts(2) until they are loose(turn in your fingers loose) and still not a drip. after an hour running the hose is luke warm, the gland and gland follower is much warmer, but certainly not hot. Several small peaces(1/8"-1/4") of packing(waxy) have been ejected. Could the running in period be longer than two hours before the water makes it's way thru the packing material and begins dripping. > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > > > | 27864|27864|2012-03-20 12:53:42|Helmut Schlager|motorjacht from the 26 footbrent swain- origamiyacht?|hello all anybody anytime has done a motorboat (with larger cabine) from brents boat? -how? I`d like to cruise the eropean waterways (all majorcities -exept madrid) in europe are situated on rivers and canals! helmut (lurking since years)| 27865|27856|2012-03-20 13:04:12|badpirate36|Re: stuffing box not driping|mike can you tell me any more about the "water pump grease" brand names or or suggest a suplier if you live in the lower mainland(vancouver bc) I've decided to haul out for this job, just so I can take my time and maybe even learn something so next time I can do it on the fly. besides I'm moving the boat up the fraser to her new berth this weekend, and a clean bottom will make the trip faster and maybe even last longer /.o) Thanx again Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > ok, > you have tightened it up too much and ruined the flax by squeezing the grease out of it. most likely you have 3 turns of packing in there. take the outer 2 out and replace. cut them ahead of time and have ready. if you can get a packing or seal puller, get it, it looks like a miniature corkscrew on a flexible shaft with a screwdriver handle. > makes it easy. cut the packing around the shaft with a butt join with as little gap as possible. get some "WATERPUMP GREASE" it is hard to find but it is necessary for a good job. , > smear it all over the packing and the ends get a little more. > put them in the box pushing with just enough pressure to seat. > tap the collar down A LITTLE and hand tighten the nuts evenly, should be no leaks. > run the engine at half speed in gear and wait for a little water or 15 min. ADJUST WHILE RUNNING! DOUBLE nut the adjustment! > you will need 1 or 2 more adjustments at maybe 10 hours and around 50 hours running time. then it will be good for YEARS without any adjustment and no water. > > always adjust running and better too loose than too tight. > the packing can cut the shaft even flax. > stay away from teflon packing it needs everything to be perfect to work right. > > pm if you have any questions > mike > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > Thanx for responding mike, > > I didn't install the stuffing box, so I can't be certain of it's make. Although it looks exactly like a kahlenberg sb-500 that I surfed upon. The packing is flax > > Tom > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > what kind of packing did you use? what type of stuffing box did you use? water is only used as a indicator of tightness it is not necessary. if you way overtightened the packing it will jam in there. > > > you have to take it apart and loosen it up with a pick. The packing is just a matrix to keep the wax in place. > > > I could tell you more when you answer these questions. > > > mike > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > > > My stuffing box (new construction) is not leaking water at all, I've run the boat several hours and backed off the gland follower bolts(2) until they are loose(turn in your fingers loose) and still not a drip. after an hour running the hose is luke warm, the gland and gland follower is much warmer, but certainly not hot. Several small peaces(1/8"-1/4") of packing(waxy) have been ejected. Could the running in period be longer than two hours before the water makes it's way thru the packing material and begins dripping. > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > | 27866|27864|2012-03-20 14:14:11|Matt Malone|Re: motorjacht from the 26 footbrent swain- origamiyacht?|Hello Helmut, Cool idea. The canals are varied in size though. The one boat that can traverse them all will be short, narrow, and long with a low draft and barge-like properties. The orgami hull shape is more... fat in the middle. If you want a BS orgami as a starting point, I am guessing you want the ability to comfortably traverse inter-coastal waterways too, where a less barge-like shape would be desirable. I saw an example where someone was originally intending a double-ender design, and then after some of the steel was cut made it into a transom junk rigged boat. It seems you could widen it at the transom to make a larger cabin, lower stern-freeboard, like a coastal/estuary shell-fish/crab fishing boat, and then build upward from there to have a cockpit-level enclosed deck -- sort of a larger pilothouse. I would keep the twin keels and ballast even though it would seem unnecessary, because it would help the stability of the boat. Maintaining stability will allow some higher structure, like maybe (no idea specifically) some type of light-weight fly-bridge. I would keep the deck enclosure small and light, and the fly bridge removeable, because, with the addition of a (possibly shortened) mast(s), it becomes a low-fuel cruiser that could go through mid-clearance commercial canals where larger barges can go. The smaller canals have clearances of 3 - 3.5m, not even room for a fly bridge. It may be possible to reduce the ballast in the keels if all the upper weight (mast etc) is removed and all other weight is kept low. I would still keep the keels and keep them full-sized, to allow additional ballast later, for storage space now, and to maintain the ability to beach in tidal zones and clean off. What is the minimum size of canal you would consider ? Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: helmut_schlager@... > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:53:41 +0100 > Subject: [origamiboats] motorjacht from the 26 footbrent swain- origamiyacht? > > hello all > anybody anytime has done a motorboat (with larger cabine) from brents > boat? -how? > I`d like to cruise the eropean waterways (all majorcities -exept madrid) > in europe are situated on rivers and canals! > helmut (lurking since years) > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27867|27864|2012-03-20 18:31:41|wild_explorer|Re: motorjacht from the 26 footbrent swain- origamiyacht?|It should not be a problem to convert Brent's hull to a motorboat. Motorboat does not have high mast, and stability requirements for a motorboat is less than for a sailboat. It will have decent stability. Longitudinal weight distribution should not be a problem. You can replace single sailboat's keel by two aft-located H-beam stabilizers (flash to a center-line midships in side view) and level to horizontal. It will allow you to extend pilot-house forward and reduce draft. OR... you can ask Brent to scale down his 36 footer and make twin-hull powerboat (similar to twin-hull ferry). It will allow to make huge living area on a platform between hulls. Such boat should have good stability and smaller engines as well than mono-hull. Downside: it will not allow to go planning (limited to hull's speed) and waste fuel as many powerboats do ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Helmut Schlager wrote: > > hello all > anybody anytime has done a motorboat (with larger cabine) from brents > boat? -how? | 27868|27868|2012-03-21 01:14:23|Maxime Camirand|collection of important discussions|Hi group, I was wondering if anyone maintained a collection of links to discussions of various topics on this group. I find the available search tools insufficient. Often, good discussions arise, off-topic, in threads whose names don't hint at the contents. I'm interested in either the BS36 or BS40, and I've been looking for good threads on: - Sailing characteristics - Cost and time to build - Welding machines - Builders east of the Prairies - Twin keels VS single keel Since I've been lurking on the group for years, I know I've seen plenty of these discussions -- but now that I'm within 1-2 years of starting to build, I can't find any of them. I don't want to bother everyone by asking the same questions all over again, either. Regards, Max| 27869|27856|2012-03-21 01:30:05|Gord Schnell|Re: stuffing box not driping|Tom Where are you moving your boat to......I live very close to the Fraser and will be launching in the spring. Just wondering about moorage. Gord On 2012-03-20, at 10:04 AM, badpirate36 wrote: > mike > can you tell me any more about the "water pump grease" brand names or or suggest a suplier if you live in the lower mainland(vancouver bc) > I've decided to haul out for this job, just so I can take my time and maybe even learn something so next time I can do it on the fly. besides I'm moving the boat up the fraser to her new berth this weekend, and a clean bottom will make the trip faster and maybe even last longer /.o) > > Thanx again > Tom > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > ok, > > you have tightened it up too much and ruined the flax by squeezing the grease out of it. most likely you have 3 turns of packing in there. take the outer 2 out and replace. cut them ahead of time and have ready. if you can get a packing or seal puller, get it, it looks like a miniature corkscrew on a flexible shaft with a screwdriver handle. > > makes it easy. cut the packing around the shaft with a butt join with as little gap as possible. get some "WATERPUMP GREASE" it is hard to find but it is necessary for a good job. , > > smear it all over the packing and the ends get a little more. > > put them in the box pushing with just enough pressure to seat. > > tap the collar down A LITTLE and hand tighten the nuts evenly, should be no leaks. > > run the engine at half speed in gear and wait for a little water or 15 min. ADJUST WHILE RUNNING! DOUBLE nut the adjustment! > > you will need 1 or 2 more adjustments at maybe 10 hours and around 50 hours running time. then it will be good for YEARS without any adjustment and no water. > > > > always adjust running and better too loose than too tight. > > the packing can cut the shaft even flax. > > stay away from teflon packing it needs everything to be perfect to work right. > > > > pm if you have any questions > > mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > Thanx for responding mike, > > > I didn't install the stuffing box, so I can't be certain of it's make. Although it looks exactly like a kahlenberg sb-500 that I surfed upon. The packing is flax > > > Tom > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > > > what kind of packing did you use? what type of stuffing box did you use? water is only used as a indicator of tightness it is not necessary. if you way overtightened the packing it will jam in there. > > > > you have to take it apart and loosen it up with a pick. The packing is just a matrix to keep the wax in place. > > > > I could tell you more when you answer these questions. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My stuffing box (new construction) is not leaking water at all, I've run the boat several hours and backed off the gland follower bolts(2) until they are loose(turn in your fingers loose) and still not a drip. after an hour running the hose is luke warm, the gland and gland follower is much warmer, but certainly not hot. Several small peaces(1/8"-1/4") of packing(waxy) have been ejected. Could the running in period be longer than two hours before the water makes it's way thru the packing material and begins dripping. > > > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27870|27856|2012-03-21 10:09:38|badpirate36|Re: stuffing box not driping|Hi Gord, I stumbled onto Ron Francis marina three months ago on craigs list. It's a small ma & pa marina of maybe 15 boats in the queensbough slough just up river from shelter island marina. there are a few more small marina in this area, but it's a long way from the ocean Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Tom > Where are you moving your boat to......I live very close to the Fraser and will be launching in the spring. Just wondering about moorage. > Gord > > On 2012-03-20, at 10:04 AM, badpirate36 wrote: > > > mike > > can you tell me any more about the "water pump grease" brand names or or suggest a suplier if you live in the lower mainland(vancouver bc) > > I've decided to haul out for this job, just so I can take my time and maybe even learn something so next time I can do it on the fly. besides I'm moving the boat up the fraser to her new berth this weekend, and a clean bottom will make the trip faster and maybe even last longer /.o) > > > > Thanx again > > Tom > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > ok, > > > you have tightened it up too much and ruined the flax by squeezing the grease out of it. most likely you have 3 turns of packing in there. take the outer 2 out and replace. cut them ahead of time and have ready. if you can get a packing or seal puller, get it, it looks like a miniature corkscrew on a flexible shaft with a screwdriver handle. > > > makes it easy. cut the packing around the shaft with a butt join with as little gap as possible. get some "WATERPUMP GREASE" it is hard to find but it is necessary for a good job. , > > > smear it all over the packing and the ends get a little more. > > > put them in the box pushing with just enough pressure to seat. > > > tap the collar down A LITTLE and hand tighten the nuts evenly, should be no leaks. > > > run the engine at half speed in gear and wait for a little water or 15 min. ADJUST WHILE RUNNING! DOUBLE nut the adjustment! > > > you will need 1 or 2 more adjustments at maybe 10 hours and around 50 hours running time. then it will be good for YEARS without any adjustment and no water. > > > > > > always adjust running and better too loose than too tight. > > > the packing can cut the shaft even flax. > > > stay away from teflon packing it needs everything to be perfect to work right. > > > > > > pm if you have any questions > > > mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanx for responding mike, > > > > I didn't install the stuffing box, so I can't be certain of it's make. Although it looks exactly like a kahlenberg sb-500 that I surfed upon. The packing is flax > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > what kind of packing did you use? what type of stuffing box did you use? water is only used as a indicator of tightness it is not necessary. if you way overtightened the packing it will jam in there. > > > > > you have to take it apart and loosen it up with a pick. The packing is just a matrix to keep the wax in place. > > > > > I could tell you more when you answer these questions. > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > My stuffing box (new construction) is not leaking water at all, I've run the boat several hours and backed off the gland follower bolts(2) until they are loose(turn in your fingers loose) and still not a drip. after an hour running the hose is luke warm, the gland and gland follower is much warmer, but certainly not hot. Several small peaces(1/8"-1/4") of packing(waxy) have been ejected. Could the running in period be longer than two hours before the water makes it's way thru the packing material and begins dripping. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27871|27868|2012-03-21 12:14:49|wild_explorer|Re: collection of important discussions|It is common problem - when you need something, it is very hard to find it. I am trying to save some important for me information on my computer, but it is still hard to find it ;) You can download PDFCreator (free virtual-printer software, imitates regular printer) and print information on your hard drive for future notes from the Web. It might be a good idea to ask if Ben (who maintains group's backup) could make off-line data DVD with group's messages. Personally, I would gladly pay up to $40 for it. Just to have off-line backup when I need it. Short overview what I learned so far: Sailing characteristics for Brent's 36, 40 footers - excellent. (Tracking, stability, balance, maintaining constant centers of LCF and LCB). 7-8 knots hull's speed (capable up to 14-15 knots when planning). Cost and time to build, welding equipment - see recent discussion (with some calculations and prices). Minimum output amperage for welder is about 90-100A (for 1/8" E6011 and 3/32" E7018). Preferable amperage is about 150-160A. Twin/single keel - more about personal preferences. For icy waters and more tankage - single keel. For shallower draft, drying on the beach, better transverse motion dumping - twin keels. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > Hi group, > > I was wondering if anyone maintained a collection of links to > discussions of various topics on this group. I find the available > search tools insufficient. Often, good discussions arise, off-topic, > in threads whose names don't hint at the contents. > > I'm interested in either the BS36 or BS40, and I've been looking for > good threads on: > - Sailing characteristics > - Cost and time to build > - Welding machines > - Builders east of the Prairies > - Twin keels VS single keel > | 27872|27868|2012-03-21 14:08:49|Darren Bos|Re: collection of important discussions|Although it is not much help to Maxime's particular questions, my solution has been to create a folder into which origamiboats messages are filtered into when I download. This gives me a local record of all the messages and the search functions in Eudora let me do Boolean (AND, OR, NOT) type searches so I can find most things readily. I used it just this morning when I saw Princess Auto had 3/4 ton lever chain hoists on sale for $69 and couldn't remember what size folks had been using on to pull together their boats. This also can be used as an equivalent to the digest version without the headaches of messages that haven't been shortened before replying. I also agree with Maxime that it would be great to have something like an FAQ. All we need is a generous individual(s), to volunteer several hundred hours to make one........ Darren At 09:14 AM 21/03/2012, you wrote: > >It is common problem - when you need something, it is very hard to >find it. I am trying to save some important for me information on my >computer, but it is still hard to find it ;) You can download >PDFCreator (free virtual-printer software, imitates regular printer) >and print information on your hard drive for future notes from the Web. > >It might be a good idea to ask if Ben (who maintains group's backup) >could make off-line data DVD with group's messages. Personally, I >would gladly pay up to $40 for it. Just to have off-line backup when >I need it........ > > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > > Hi group, > > > > I was wondering if anyone maintained a collection of links to > > discussions of various topics on this group. I find the available > > search tools insufficient. ..... >. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27873|27868|2012-03-21 14:12:22|Maxime Camirand|Re: collection of important discussions|Maybe we could set up a community account at one of the popular wiki providers. Many of them have simple text editors. Granted, this is still work, but at least everyone could have access and could do a bit of filing, whenever something important-seeming comes up. Regards, Maxime On 21 March 2012 14:10, Darren Bos wrote: > ** > > > Although it is not much help to Maxime's particular questions, my > solution has been to create a folder into which origamiboats messages > are filtered into when I download. This gives me a local record of > all the messages and the search functions in Eudora let me do Boolean > (AND, OR, NOT) type searches so I can find most things readily. I > used it just this morning when I saw Princess Auto had 3/4 ton lever > chain hoists on sale for $69 and couldn't remember what size folks > had been using on to pull together their boats. This also can be > used as an equivalent to the digest version without the headaches of > messages that haven't been shortened before replying. > > I also agree with Maxime that it would be great to have something > like an FAQ. All we need is a generous individual(s), to volunteer > several hundred hours to make one........ > > Darren > > > At 09:14 AM 21/03/2012, you wrote: > > > >It is common problem - when you need something, it is very hard to > >find it. I am trying to save some important for me information on my > >computer, but it is still hard to find it ;) You can download > >PDFCreator (free virtual-printer software, imitates regular printer) > >and print information on your hard drive for future notes from the Web. > > > >It might be a good idea to ask if Ben (who maintains group's backup) > >could make off-line data DVD with group's messages. Personally, I > >would gladly pay up to $40 for it. Just to have off-line backup when > >I need it........ > > > > > >--- In > >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > >Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > > > > Hi group, > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone maintained a collection of links to > > > discussions of various topics on this group. I find the available > > > search tools insufficient. ..... > >. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27874|27835|2012-03-21 14:20:48|brentswain38|Re: Batteries for LED flashlights|Good to have some things which are not wired to the battery. A couple of friends sailing down the Oregon coast in a 36 , had the cabin fill with smoke from an electrical problem, and had nothing to see with, which was not tied into the main electrical system. All they could do was peer down the hatch into the smoky darkness. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > I have LED flash lights all over the place. I love them. But for something like a light on the boat.. spreaders or head beam etc I want it wired to the battery banks that is charged by the solar panels. With a switch beside the helm or at the chart table to control it. Also that it is about 75 x as bright as a flash light. > Scott > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > The super bright LED flashlight does suck the Duracells down quicker. > > Think I'll switch to those dollar store 30 packs for$3.50. Cant go too far wrong at that price. > > > | 27875|27864|2012-03-21 14:28:56|brentswain38|Re: motorjacht from the 26 footbrent swain- origamiyacht?|It shouldn't be a problem,if you don't plan on planing. It is a displacement hull and overpowering it will suck the stern down a lot. The larger transom on the 26 should help a lot. I wouldn't go too high with the wheelhouse. As long as you can see over the fore hatch , going much higher wont give you any better visibility. It will reduce access to counter space under the side decks. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > It should not be a problem to convert Brent's hull to a motorboat. Motorboat does not have high mast, and stability requirements for a motorboat is less than for a sailboat. It will have decent stability. > > Longitudinal weight distribution should not be a problem. You can replace single sailboat's keel by two aft-located H-beam stabilizers (flash to a center-line midships in side view) and level to horizontal. It will allow you to extend pilot-house forward and reduce draft. > > OR... you can ask Brent to scale down his 36 footer and make twin-hull powerboat (similar to twin-hull ferry). It will allow to make huge living area on a platform between hulls. Such boat should have good stability and smaller engines as well than mono-hull. > > Downside: it will not allow to go planning (limited to hull's speed) and waste fuel as many powerboats do ;) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Helmut Schlager wrote: > > > > hello all > > anybody anytime has done a motorboat (with larger cabine) from brents > > boat? -how? > | 27876|27854|2012-03-21 14:30:21|brentswain38|Re: Anchor winch cable|Thanks for the info Paul. Great post. Should be put in files. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > Sorry for not getting back to you sooner....the storm hitting Taranaki > has knocked a lot of trees down and our power keeps going out. > > I would go for the 8mm or even go with 10 mm cable. You don't need the > strength but it is easier to handle and the extra weight adds catenary. > I found this helps my boat lie nicer on the anchor in waves and wind > gusts. I broke 1/4 inch (6mm) cable once when the cable was kinked when > the nicropress swage and eye got caught in some coral. I now do a large > soft splice which is easy to do with the larger diameter cable. The eye > splice I use is called a Hasty, Flemish or Molly Hogan splice and is > very quick and easy to do. Some heat shrink or hose over the splice > gives it a nice finish. I use the cheapest galv cable I can get. The > kind that has a hemp or rope core is the best since it will absorb some > of the grease and make the cable last longer. It normally has a looser > lay and is easier to splice. > > My 36 footer is just over 10 tons loaded. I use about 75 feet (25 > meters) of 3/8 chain and about 250 feet (75 meters) of cable. This > allows me to easily anchor in about 75 feet (approx 25 m) of water > without adding any extra rode. As you probably know, a lot of the > lagoons in the South Pacific are at least 40 feet deep. I don't mind the > weight since my winch is hydraulic. If I was pulling in by hand, I could > cut back on the length of the chain a little. Either way, using cable is > much lighter pulling in than all chain. In my opinion, nylon rode is > unacceptable around coral. > > I keep the cable in one length and use a rolling (Prusik) Knot to hook a > snubber on to the cable. A Prusik knot will grip even on the greasy 10mm > cable. Using smaller cable, it may slip until some of the grease wears > off. There is nothing stopping you from using shorter lengths of cable > with eyes and it would easily allow changing or swapping one section at > a time but I have never felt the need. The galv cable is so cheap I > generally just change the whole length when needed. You could reverse it > or shorten it a bit if you want to get more time out of it. I normally > save a good 50 foot section of the old cable and keep it coiled below > for emergencies. > > The grease is messy but better than having rust streaks, in my opinion. > I use an old leather glove to feed it evenly on to the drum when > bringing it in. Once it is all in the chain covers the cable so the > grease doesn't get on sails or gear. When out, you just need to be aware > of the greasy cable when on the foredeck but it is not really a problem. > Greased up every once in awhile (6 months?), the cable should last at > least two years in the tropics. I have had cheap chain last less. If you > have enough fresh water to rinse everything down, it may last longer. I > knew someone who had an old-style red-lead grease and his galv cable was > ten years old. I have always used any automotive wheel grease and just > worked it in with a rag. Having loose lay cheap galv cable helps. Marine > greases that resist washout may last longer but they may not be worth > the extra price. I have thought of trying different mixes of oil, grease > and wax but need more time to experiment :). > > Best of luck, Paul > > On 19/03/2012 9:08 a.m., Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > Hi Paul (Wilson) and Brent, > > > > I'm about to finally commission my "Brent Swain" type anchor winch. I > > need to decide on what type size and type of wire to use. I seem to > > remember that you said that you used galvanized wire and that you > > greased it. Can you please tell me more? And does not the grease get > > on everything that it comes near? Could you describe your set up? > > > > Brent, what are you using now? Could you describe your set up and > > outline your current thinking? > > > > Currently I'm thinking of 20M 8mm high tensile change (G4) as I've got > > it, then 60M of 8 or 6mm galv or stainless wire in 20M segments. The > > boat is 8ton disp. enough wire? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > | 27877|27854|2012-03-21 16:55:44|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchor winch cable|No problem.... One thing I forgot to mention. If you use the larger diameter cable, it doesn't like being wrapped around a small diameter pipe on the drum. I built the diameter of the drum up using blocks of wood to about 6 inch diameter. I have heard of people using wire wrapped over nylon rode on the drum but I was worried about the wire cutting in to the wraps of nylon in extreme conditions. I was once anchored in 3 to 4 meter swells in Hawaii and the forces involved are unbelievable. I actually had the rode jump out of the bow roller due to the motion of the boat. The waves were coming right over the bow and were sweeping the decks. The anchor eventually dragged and came up all twisted. I had a spare handy and managed to get it on somehow before hitting the reef. Not a nice day. Cheers, Paul ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email -->| 27878|27868|2012-03-21 18:28:49|martin demers|Re: collection of important discussions|Are you forgetting the search system made by Ben? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: maxcamirand@... > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 14:12:01 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: collection of important discussions > > Maybe we could set up a community account at one of the popular wiki > providers. Many of them have simple text editors. Granted, this is still > work, but at least everyone could have access and could do a bit of filing, > whenever something important-seeming comes up. > > Regards, > Maxime > > On 21 March 2012 14:10, Darren Bos wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Although it is not much help to Maxime's particular questions, my > > solution has been to create a folder into which origamiboats messages > > are filtered into when I download. This gives me a local record of > > all the messages and the search functions in Eudora let me do Boolean > > (AND, OR, NOT) type searches so I can find most things readily. I > > used it just this morning when I saw Princess Auto had 3/4 ton lever > > chain hoists on sale for $69 and couldn't remember what size folks > > had been using on to pull together their boats. This also can be > > used as an equivalent to the digest version without the headaches of > > messages that haven't been shortened before replying. > > > > I also agree with Maxime that it would be great to have something > > like an FAQ. All we need is a generous individual(s), to volunteer > > several hundred hours to make one........ > > > > Darren > > > > > > At 09:14 AM 21/03/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >It is common problem - when you need something, it is very hard to > > >find it. I am trying to save some important for me information on my > > >computer, but it is still hard to find it ;) You can download > > >PDFCreator (free virtual-printer software, imitates regular printer) > > >and print information on your hard drive for future notes from the Web. > > > > > >It might be a good idea to ask if Ben (who maintains group's backup) > > >could make off-line data DVD with group's messages. Personally, I > > >would gladly pay up to $40 for it. Just to have off-line backup when > > >I need it........ > > > > > > > > >--- In > > >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > >Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi group, > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone maintained a collection of links to > > > > discussions of various topics on this group. I find the available > > > > search tools insufficient. ..... > > >. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27879|27854|2012-03-21 19:24:58|jason ball|Re: Anchor winch cable|hiya paul, what kind of anchor was that? makes me shiver thinkin bout days like that, i had a whole weekend like that once and ended up on the beach. got back off after a month and the steel 44 ketch which i had was fine. i had a 65lb cqr down and loads of chain in about 5 metres depth, but i didnt have a snubber on and the shock loads broke the weakest link, which i believe to be the shackle at the anchor, but never did find out, great anchor that was. would always have a snubber on now!.regards, jason ball --- On Wed, 21/3/12, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch cable To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 21 March, 2012, 20:52   No problem.... One thing I forgot to mention. If you use the larger diameter cable, it doesn't like being wrapped around a small diameter pipe on the drum. I built the diameter of the drum up using blocks of wood to about 6 inch diameter. I have heard of people using wire wrapped over nylon rode on the drum but I was worried about the wire cutting in to the wraps of nylon in extreme conditions. I was once anchored in 3 to 4 meter swells in Hawaii and the forces involved are unbelievable. I actually had the rode jump out of the bow roller due to the motion of the boat. The waves were coming right over the bow and were sweeping the decks. The anchor eventually dragged and came up all twisted. I had a spare handy and managed to get it on somehow before hitting the reef. Not a nice day. Cheers, Paul ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email --> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27880|27868|2012-03-21 20:30:40|Darren Bos|Re: collection of important discussions|Ben's search engine is great and if you use the advanced search options you can find most things easily. However, some things like "build cost" and "build time" have a huge number of on topic and off topic hits (even if you get creative with your search terms), so you have to wade through a few thousands posts. These are pretty commonly asked questions, so an FAQ or equivalent would be useful for this kind of question (although I'm the first to admit that I'm not altruistic enough to put the time in to create such a resource). The other problem is that if anything should happen to Ben (such as he finds a chest of gold and buys his own tropical island and abandons all technology) then there is no backup, whereas if you keep a local copy of the messages, you always have it. Short of Ben abandoning us to a life with servants and drinks with umbrellas, a local copy is also useful if you are not always connected to the internet. Darren At 03:28 PM 21/03/2012, you wrote: > > >Are you forgetting the search system made by Ben? > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: maxcamirand@... > > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 14:12:01 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: collection of important discussions > > > > Maybe we could set up a community account at one of the popular wiki > > providers. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27881|3366|2012-03-21 20:47:40|GP|Propane|Seems every year there are boats and cruisers blown away with propane. I have a 2 burner stove and a barbeque on the rail using propane. I could live without the barbeque which leaves just a small stove vs the danger of propane. Anyone happy with some other source of cooking other than propane? ... thanks Gary| 27882|3366|2012-03-21 21:48:10|James Pronk|Re: Propane|Hi Gary I made a single burner kerosene stove for are Catalina and it worked good. I was thinking about building a two burner as well. I used a single burner butterfly stove to start with and built a cage to hold pots in  place. Not my idea, saw it on the atom page   http://www.stpaulmercantile.com/index.php?action=store&item=BrassPressureStove   http://atomvoyages.com/cys/atomstove.html   My stove is a little heaver. We could whip something up the next time you are in the patch. James --- On Wed, 3/21/12, GP wrote: From: GP Subject: [origamiboats] Propane To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, March 21, 2012, 8:47 PM   Seems every year there are boats and cruisers blown away with propane. I have a 2 burner stove and a barbeque on the rail using propane. I could live without the barbeque which leaves just a small stove vs the danger of propane. Anyone happy with some other source of cooking other than propane? ... thanks Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27883|3366|2012-03-21 22:06:07|John Riehl|Re: Propane|What does anyone think about using the same diesel you use for the iron genny?   http://www.wallas.fi/default.asp?id=boat-oven-87D   >________________________________ > From: GP >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 6:47 PM >Subject: [origamiboats] Propane > > > >  > >Seems every year there are boats and cruisers blown away with propane. I have a 2 burner stove and a barbeque on the rail using propane. I could live without the barbeque which leaves just a small stove vs the danger of propane. Anyone happy with some other source of cooking other than propane? > >... thanks >Gary > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27884|27868|2012-03-21 23:03:36|Maxime Camirand|Re: collection of important discussions|I do remember Ben's search engine, but I've been unable to use it to get specific information on the BS40. It seems to choke when fed a number only ("40"). Maybe I'm not using it right. It's fine for the vast majority of purposes, though. I was just hoping someone had a collection and was willing to share. Call it efficiency, or call it avoiding the hard work of searching :) Regards, Max On 21 March 2012 20:31, Darren Bos wrote: > ** > > > > Ben's search engine is great and if you use the advanced search > options you can find most things easily. However, some things like > "build cost" and "build time" have a huge number of on topic and off > topic hits (even if you get creative with your search terms), so you > have to wade through a few thousands posts. These are pretty > commonly asked questions, so an FAQ or equivalent would be useful for > this kind of question (although I'm the first to admit that I'm not > altruistic enough to put the time in to create such a resource). The > other problem is that if anything should happen to Ben (such as he > finds a chest of gold and buys his own tropical island and abandons > all technology) then there is no backup, whereas if you keep a local > copy of the messages, you always have it. Short of Ben abandoning us > to a life with servants and drinks with umbrellas, a local copy is > also useful if you are not always connected to the internet. > > Darren > > > At 03:28 PM 21/03/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Are you forgetting the search system made by Ben? > > > > > To: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: maxcamirand@... > > > > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 14:12:01 -0400 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: collection of important discussions > > > > > > Maybe we could set up a community account at one of the popular wiki > > > providers. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27885|3366|2012-03-22 00:01:13|Paul Wilson|Re: Propane|I have used propane, diesel (kerosene), and alcohol stoves. All of them have fire risk. Propane is my favorite but I wouldn't have one without a convenient shut-off solenoid at the tank easily operated in the galley. An LED light tells me when I have left it on. I know I am too lazy and unreliable to go to the tank and manually shut it off after each use. Paul On 22/03/2012 1:47 p.m., GP wrote: > > Seems every year there are boats and cruisers blown away with propane. > I have a 2 burner stove and a barbeque on the rail using propane. I > could live without the barbeque which leaves just a small stove vs the > danger of propane. Anyone happy with some other source of cooking > other than propane? > > ... thanks > Gary > > | 27886|27856|2012-03-22 00:35:28|Gord Schnell|Re: stuffing box not driping|Tom I am located just another 1/2 km up river from there. What does your boat look like, name, etc? Gord On 2012-03-21, at 7:09 AM, badpirate36 wrote: > Hi Gord, > I stumbled onto Ron Francis marina three months ago on craigs list. It's a small ma & pa marina of maybe 15 boats in the queensbough slough just up river from shelter island marina. there are a few more small marina in this area, but it's a long way from the ocean > > Tom > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > Tom > > Where are you moving your boat to......I live very close to the Fraser and will be launching in the spring. Just wondering about moorage. > > Gord > > > > On 2012-03-20, at 10:04 AM, badpirate36 wrote: > > > > > mike > > > can you tell me any more about the "water pump grease" brand names or or suggest a suplier if you live in the lower mainland(vancouver bc) > > > I've decided to haul out for this job, just so I can take my time and maybe even learn something so next time I can do it on the fly. besides I'm moving the boat up the fraser to her new berth this weekend, and a clean bottom will make the trip faster and maybe even last longer /.o) > > > > > > Thanx again > > > Tom > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > > > ok, > > > > you have tightened it up too much and ruined the flax by squeezing the grease out of it. most likely you have 3 turns of packing in there. take the outer 2 out and replace. cut them ahead of time and have ready. if you can get a packing or seal puller, get it, it looks like a miniature corkscrew on a flexible shaft with a screwdriver handle. > > > > makes it easy. cut the packing around the shaft with a butt join with as little gap as possible. get some "WATERPUMP GREASE" it is hard to find but it is necessary for a good job. , > > > > smear it all over the packing and the ends get a little more. > > > > put them in the box pushing with just enough pressure to seat. > > > > tap the collar down A LITTLE and hand tighten the nuts evenly, should be no leaks. > > > > run the engine at half speed in gear and wait for a little water or 15 min. ADJUST WHILE RUNNING! DOUBLE nut the adjustment! > > > > you will need 1 or 2 more adjustments at maybe 10 hours and around 50 hours running time. then it will be good for YEARS without any adjustment and no water. > > > > > > > > always adjust running and better too loose than too tight. > > > > the packing can cut the shaft even flax. > > > > stay away from teflon packing it needs everything to be perfect to work right. > > > > > > > > pm if you have any questions > > > > mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thanx for responding mike, > > > > > I didn't install the stuffing box, so I can't be certain of it's make. Although it looks exactly like a kahlenberg sb-500 that I surfed upon. The packing is flax > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > what kind of packing did you use? what type of stuffing box did you use? water is only used as a indicator of tightness it is not necessary. if you way overtightened the packing it will jam in there. > > > > > > you have to take it apart and loosen it up with a pick. The packing is just a matrix to keep the wax in place. > > > > > > I could tell you more when you answer these questions. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My stuffing box (new construction) is not leaking water at all, I've run the boat several hours and backed off the gland follower bolts(2) until they are loose(turn in your fingers loose) and still not a drip. after an hour running the hose is luke warm, the gland and gland follower is much warmer, but certainly not hot. Several small peaces(1/8"-1/4") of packing(waxy) have been ejected. Could the running in period be longer than two hours before the water makes it's way thru the packing material and begins dripping. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27887|27854|2012-03-22 00:52:00|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchor winch cable|On 22/03/2012 12:24 p.m., jason ball wrote: > hiya paul, what kind of anchor was that? makes me shiver thinkin bout > days like that, i had a whole weekend like that once and ended up on > the beach. got back off after a month and the steel 44 ketch which i > had was fine. i had a 65lb cqr down and loads of chain in about 5 > metres depth, but i didnt have a snubber on and the shock loads broke > the weakest link, which i believe to be the shackle at the anchor, but > never did find out, great anchor that was. would always have a snubber > on now!.regards, jason ball It was a home made Danforth anchor that was based on the 55 pound model. Danforths are absolutely great in sand and mud but aren't the strongest of anchors. I thought mine looked bloody strong but have since beefed up the shaft....it is hard to say if a store-bought model would have bent. I suspect so since conditions were so extreme. I am still not sure how I changed in time and managed to keep the boat off the beach. It was an un-named 3 day north Pacific storm and by far the worst experience I have ever had on the boat....if you look on google earth, it was about here: 21°00'51.50" N 156°38'24.00" W It was a beautiful spot and I was told it was safe in a southerly but the wind shifted and waves wrapped around the point of land. The gusts came down the hills at well over 70 knots and I remember all the tourists taking pictures of me tossing about. After bending the Danforth, I ended up using my 45 pound plow but anchored very close in to shore on the west side of the bay to escape the worst of the waves. When the wind suddenly shifted to the east at about 1am at the end of the storm I felt the boat come down on a coral head. I quickly pulled up anchor and got the hell out of the bay and back to the mooring field near Lahaina. This experience was much worse than the 4 (?) cyclones that have swung near me and Cyclone Ami (200 km winds) which went pretty well right over me when in Savusavu, Fiji..... I must be a wind magnet :(. Your story sounds scary, too. Steel is tough! Cheers, Paul| 27888|3366|2012-03-22 06:35:46|scott|Re: Propane|I think the best system I have heard for propane is to also have a manual timer tied into your system and when it is off it shuts the solenoid off as well as the on off switch in the galley on the solenoid control. So to use the propane you have to have the solenoid switch on and you have to have the timer on. If you set it to 15 Min then it turns off the propane when it runs down. The only downside for me is that we have a propane heater in the boat (externally vented catalytic heater) and it would make it much harder to use as it will normally run for hours and turns itself on and off with a thermostat. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I have used propane, diesel (kerosene), and alcohol stoves. All of them > have fire risk. Propane is my favorite but I wouldn't have one without a > convenient shut-off solenoid at the tank easily operated in the galley. > An LED light tells me when I have left it on. I know I am too lazy and > unreliable to go to the tank and manually shut it off after each use. > > Paul > > On 22/03/2012 1:47 p.m., GP wrote: > > > > Seems every year there are boats and cruisers blown away with propane. > > I have a 2 burner stove and a barbeque on the rail using propane. I > > could live without the barbeque which leaves just a small stove vs the > > danger of propane. Anyone happy with some other source of cooking > > other than propane? > > > > ... thanks > > Gary > > > > > | 27889|27868|2012-03-22 08:34:08|jhess314|Searching this group for information|Just to remind the group that you can search the messages with Google. In the Google search page box type: search term(s) site:groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats So for instance if one wanted to look up post pertaining to BS40, the search would look like: BS40 site:groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats If you are searching for a phrase, use quotes around the string of words, like: "Asian carp in the Mississippi" site:groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats You can also use Boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT) The Boolean operators MUST be capitalized, like this: BS40 OR "BS 40" OR BS-40 site:groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats I've found the ADVANCED search capabilities of Yahoo useful as well. It allows you to search by a specific AUTHOR, or within a DATE range, or by SUBJECT, or by what's in the MESSAGE body. The ADVANCED search page can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/messages and then clicking on ADVANCED, just to the right of the SEARCH box. Best, John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > I do remember Ben's search engine, but I've been unable to use it to get > specific information on the BS40. It seems to choke when fed a number only > ("40"). Maybe I'm not using it right. It's fine for the vast majority of > purposes, though. > > I was just hoping someone had a collection and was willing to share. Call > it efficiency, or call it avoiding the hard work of searching :) > > Regards, > Max | 27890|3366|2012-03-22 09:59:34|martin|Re: Propane|I don't see anyone mentioning a propane detector. On Prarie Maid I have a solenoid on the tank along with a pressure gauge. I also have a detector set very low in the boat with a manual switch on the panel to turn it on for a quick check to see if any gas has started to pool. Another problem I see is people ignoring the rule of no connections between appliance and tank within the boat. I first started to install my system with a single hose into a metal T just under the cockpit that would feed the fireplace and stove. I later changed it to two seperate hoses from the outside of the boat to satisfy insurance needs. Martin..| 27891|3366|2012-03-22 12:59:27|Mark Hamill|Re: Propane|I have a Force 10 kerosene oven/stove combination that I bought second had and like it alot. i have never used the oven and use a pressure cooker to make bread. i bought some different nipples that allow one to use diesel but have not installed them yet. I built a hatch over the stove which really helps vent . This is on my catamaran. Force 10 does not sell the burners anymore but I have a source which I can probably find if anybody wants it. There is a site online for people interested in old gas/kerosene/diesel stoves and lanterns. To replace a burner was around $75. This guy sells kerosene stoves for the survivalist market http://www.endtimesreport.com/kerosene_cookers.html These are english marine kerosene cookers http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/prod02.htm MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27892|3366|2012-03-22 17:30:39|Matt Malone|Re: Propane|I have had two propane stoves, one in a camper, and now one in a boat. I have not had a problem, yet, but I watch my propane like a hawk, and shut it off even at home. I have used a methyl alcohol stove on a boat. It is old and works OK. The stove has blown out a couple of times, and, when it does, the methyl alcohol vapours are quite bitter and noxious and burn the eyes. The only thing I really like about alcohol is, I can extinguish it with water, if needed. A kerosene stove looks interesting, but no experience yet. I think I would prefer to weld a pot well into the top of a small wood stove with a cooking grate inside, and use it most of the time. For those who have never cooked inside a woodstove, think tinfoil and oven. I do it all the time at my cabin. Wood floats, it does not run down into your bilge and stink, it cannot blow up your boat, it can also be extinguished with water, and it is generally low-cost. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:01:34 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Propane I have a Force 10 kerosene oven/stove combination that I bought second had and like it alot. i have never used the oven and use a pressure cooker to make bread. i bought some different nipples that allow one to use diesel but have not installed them yet. I built a hatch over the stove which really helps vent . This is on my catamaran. Force 10 does not sell the burners anymore but I have a source which I can probably find if anybody wants it. There is a site online for people interested in old gas/kerosene/diesel stoves and lanterns. To replace a burner was around $75. This guy sells kerosene stoves for the survivalist market http://www.endtimesreport.com/kerosene_cookers.html These are english marine kerosene cookers http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/prod02.htm MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27893|3366|2012-03-22 17:53:05|Mark Hamill|Re: Propane|Matt: As you have probably seen there are some really gorgeous marine woodstoves out there. Ian and Shari that built China Cloud which is now behind the Comox Bay Marina did all their cooking on one. Can't remember what the make was. She could whip up a batch of muffins in a flash on it. MarkH| 27894|3366|2012-03-22 19:45:46|Dennis Mcfadden|Re: Propane|The heater interests me. Could you identify the make / model and how it is vented. Thanks, Dennis To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: audeojude@... Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:35:45 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Propane I think the best system I have heard for propane is to also have a manual timer tied into your system and when it is off it shuts the solenoid off as well as the on off switch in the galley on the solenoid control. So to use the propane you have to have the solenoid switch on and you have to have the timer on. If you set it to 15 Min then it turns off the propane when it runs down. The only downside for me is that we have a propane heater in the boat (externally vented catalytic heater) and it would make it much harder to use as it will normally run for hours and turns itself on and off with a thermostat. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I have used propane, diesel (kerosene), and alcohol stoves. All of them > have fire risk. Propane is my favorite but I wouldn't have one without a > convenient shut-off solenoid at the tank easily operated in the galley. > An LED light tells me when I have left it on. I know I am too lazy and > unreliable to go to the tank and manually shut it off after each use. > > Paul > > On 22/03/2012 1:47 p.m., GP wrote: > > > > Seems every year there are boats and cruisers blown away with propane. > > I have a 2 burner stove and a barbeque on the rail using propane. I > > could live without the barbeque which leaves just a small stove vs the > > danger of propane. Anyone happy with some other source of cooking > > other than propane? > > > > ... thanks > > Gary > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27895|27854|2012-03-22 19:53:29|brentswain38|Re: Anchor winch cable|When I jammed a danforth under a rock at Isla Isabella, in a swell, it peeled the centre of the crown plate back like a banana. I welded it back in later and welded a piece of 1/4 inch plate over the spot ,both sides. Few commercially made danforths are as strongly built as most home made ones. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > On 22/03/2012 12:24 p.m., jason ball wrote: > > hiya paul, what kind of anchor was that? makes me shiver thinkin bout > > days like that, i had a whole weekend like that once and ended up on > > the beach. got back off after a month and the steel 44 ketch which i > > had was fine. i had a 65lb cqr down and loads of chain in about 5 > > metres depth, but i didnt have a snubber on and the shock loads broke > > the weakest link, which i believe to be the shackle at the anchor, but > > never did find out, great anchor that was. would always have a snubber > > on now!.regards, jason ball > It was a home made Danforth anchor that was based on the 55 pound > model. Danforths are absolutely great in sand and mud but aren't the > strongest of anchors. I thought mine looked bloody strong but have > since beefed up the shaft....it is hard to say if a store-bought model > would have bent. I suspect so since conditions were so extreme. I am > still not sure how I changed in time and managed to keep the boat off > the beach. It was an un-named 3 day north Pacific storm and by far the > worst experience I have ever had on the boat....if you look on google > earth, it was about here: > > 21°00'51.50" N 156°38'24.00" W > > It was a beautiful spot and I was told it was safe in a southerly but > the wind shifted and waves wrapped around the point of land. The gusts > came down the hills at well over 70 knots and I remember all the > tourists taking pictures of me tossing about. After bending the > Danforth, I ended up using my 45 pound plow but anchored very close in > to shore on the west side of the bay to escape the worst of the waves. > When the wind suddenly shifted to the east at about 1am at the end of > the storm I felt the boat come down on a coral head. I quickly pulled > up anchor and got the hell out of the bay and back to the mooring field > near Lahaina. This experience was much worse than the 4 (?) cyclones > that have swung near me and Cyclone Ami (200 km winds) which went pretty > well right over me when in Savusavu, Fiji..... > > I must be a wind magnet :(. > > Your story sounds scary, too. Steel is tough! > > Cheers, Paul > | 27896|3366|2012-03-22 19:58:39|brentswain38|Re: Propane|Allan and Shari suffered most of their lives, trying to keep warm with that non- airtight stove. It was only in the last year of Allan's life that Mike Taylor finally made him up an airtight stove. Allan was amazed that he could leave the boat for several hours, and still come back to a warm boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Matt: > As you have probably seen there are some really gorgeous marine woodstoves > out there. Ian and Shari that built China Cloud which is now behind the > Comox Bay Marina did all their cooking on one. Can't remember what the make > was. She could whip up a batch of muffins in a flash on it. MarkH > | 27897|3366|2012-03-22 20:13:30|Mark Hamill|Re: Propane|Brent: That's a really interesting observation. Do you remember what the make of the stove was?? Allan and Shari suffered most of their lives, trying to keep warm with that non- airtight stove. It was only in the last year of Allan's life that Mike Taylor finally made him up an airtight stove. Allan was amazed that he could leave the boat for several hours, and still come back to a warm boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27898|27898|2012-03-22 21:19:30|Doug - SubmarineBoat.com|Hundested Controllable Pitch Propeller System for Sale|We got our first NiBrAl propeller blade make. Well, our first usable propeller blade. :) The one that failed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKO0XTKbEeo The one that worked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs4q-QZmNpY Paul Liebenberg still has the port side unit that is missing the same part that mine was, but we now have the brass casting that can make the missing part and we are currently making blades. If you need a great motorsailer setup and used prices now is the time to speak up and make an offer. I can cast blades for you or supply the pattern. And Paul has everything else. You can see details of this setup here: http://www.submarineboat.com/controllable_pitch_propeller.htm Thanks Doug Tulsa, OK| 27899|3366|2012-03-23 15:01:38|brentswain38|Re: Propane|It may have been a Lunnenburg, or Washington stove works cast iron range, with oven. Some have been greatly improving them, by taking out the grate and putting in an airtight liner, giving it a much larger firebox, and to make the stove more airtight, and thus controlable. Grates are for coal. Wood burns best in it's own ashes. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Brent: That's a really interesting observation. Do you remember what the make of the stove was?? > > > > Allan and Shari suffered most of their lives, trying to keep warm with that non- airtight stove. It was only in the last year of Allan's life that Mike Taylor finally made him up an airtight stove. Allan was amazed that he could leave the boat for several hours, and still come back to a warm boat. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27900|27900|2012-03-23 15:04:30|brentswain38|Around the Horn|Silas Crosby, a twin keel 36 footer, just became the first Brentboat to round Cape Horn; from east to west.| 27901|27900|2012-03-23 15:08:06|Matt Malone|Re: Around the Horn|Congratulations to the crew, the builder, and to Brent Swain. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 19:04:27 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Around the Horn Silas Crosby, a twin keel 36 footer, just became the first Brentboat to round Cape Horn; from east to west. _.ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mkp #ecxhd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mkp #ecxads {margin-bottom:10px;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mkp .ecxad {padding:0 0;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mkp .ecxad p {;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mkp .ecxad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-sponsor #ecxygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-sponsor #ecxygrp-lc #ecxhd {font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-sponsor #ecxygrp-lc .ecxad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} .ExternalClass a {color:#1e66ae;} .ExternalClass #ecxactions {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} .ExternalClass #ecxactivity {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} .ExternalClass #ecxactivity span {font-weight:700;} .ExternalClass #ecxactivity span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} .ExternalClass #ecxactivity span span {color:#ff7900;} .ExternalClass #ecxactivity span .ecxunderline {text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass .ecxattach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} .ExternalClass .ecxattach div a {text-decoration:none;} .ExternalClass .ecxattach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;} .ExternalClass .ecxattach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} .ExternalClass .ecxattach label a {text-decoration:none;} .ExternalClass blockquote {;} .ExternalClass .ecxbold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} .ExternalClass .ecxbold a {text-decoration:none;} .ExternalClass dd.ecxlast p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} .ExternalClass dd.ecxlast p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} .ExternalClass dd.ecxlast p span.ecxyshortcuts {margin-right:0;} .ExternalClass div.ecxattach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;} .ExternalClass div.ecxattach-table {width:400px;} .ExternalClass div.ecxfile-title a, .ExternalClass div.ecxfile-title a:active, .ExternalClass div.ecxfile-title a:hover, .ExternalClass div.ecxfile-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;} .ExternalClass div.ecxphoto-title a, .ExternalClass div.ecxphoto-title a:active, .ExternalClass div.ecxphoto-title a:hover, .ExternalClass div.ecxphoto-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;} .ExternalClass ecxdiv#ygrp-mlmsg #ecxygrp-msg p a span.ecxyshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} .ExternalClass .ecxgreen {color:#628c2a;} .ExternalClass .ecxMsoNormal {;} .ExternalClass ecxo {font-size:0;} .ExternalClass #ecxphotos div {float:left;width:72px;} .ExternalClass #ecxphotos div div {border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} .ExternalClass #ecxphotos div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} .ExternalClass #ecxreco-category {font-size:77%;} .ExternalClass #ecxreco-desc {font-size:77%;} .ExternalClass .ecxreplbq {;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mlmsg select, .ExternalClass input, .ExternalClass textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mlmsg pre, .ExternalClass code {font:115% monospace;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mlmsg ecx* {line-height:1.22em;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mlmsg #ecxlogo {padding-bottom:10px;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-mlmsg a {color:#1E66AE;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-msg ecxp#attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-reco #ecxreco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-sponsor #ecxov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-sponsor #ecxov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-sponsor #ecxov ul {padding:0 0 0 8px;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-text p {;} .ExternalClass #ecxygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;} [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27902|27900|2012-03-23 15:30:24|Paul Wilson|Re: Around the Horn|Excellent. Congratulations to all.... Cheers, Paul On 24/03/2012 8:04 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Silas Crosby, a twin keel 36 footer, just became the first Brentboat > to round Cape Horn; from east to west. > > | 27903|27900|2012-03-23 15:34:39|Maxime Camirand|Re: Around the Horn|A great achievement. Congratulations to the crew and designer. Regards, Maxime On 23 March 2012 15:04, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > Silas Crosby, a twin keel 36 footer, just became the first Brentboat to > round Cape Horn; from east to west. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27904|27900|2012-03-23 16:11:25|Denis Buggy|Re: Around the Horn|WELL DONE TO ALL-- DENIS BUGGY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Around the Horn > Excellent. Congratulations to all.... > > Cheers, Paul > > On 24/03/2012 8:04 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: >> >> Silas Crosby, a twin keel 36 footer, just became the first Brentboat >> to round Cape Horn; from east to west. >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 27905|3366|2012-03-23 16:53:18|scott|Re: Propane|http://ventedcatheater.com/index.html it is a cat catalytic heater that when it is running has a small fan the exhausts all the burnt propane. It is Radiant heat from the front of it. Puts out a decent amount of heat. It is electrically ignited by using a glow plug to heat the platinum burning surface up to ignite the propane. It doesn't really burn as in fire but sort of oxidises? the propane. supposedly it is very efficient. I have it set up on a thermostat and if the main heater power switch is on it will turn itself on and off just like a house furnace system. I have an older model and the guy that builds and services them now is really nice. You can contact him through his website above or I think it has a phone number to contact him at. The times I called him I left and message and he got back to me. Not sure what a new one costs though. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Mcfadden wrote: > > > The heater interests me. Could you identify the make / model and how it is vented. Thanks, Dennis > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: audeojude@... > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:35:45 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Propane > > > > > | 27906|27900|2012-03-23 18:52:45|martin demers|Re: Around the Horn|Congratulations, Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: denis@... Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 20:11:21 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Around the Horn WELL DONE TO ALL-- DENIS BUGGY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Around the Horn > Excellent. Congratulations to all.... > > Cheers, Paul > > On 24/03/2012 8:04 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: >> >> Silas Crosby, a twin keel 36 footer, just became the first Brentboat >> to round Cape Horn; from east to west. >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27907|3366|2012-03-23 20:18:31|GP|Re: Propane|Hi Matt... just had Brent buzz me up a woodstove out of stainless. Size is 20 inches long built from 12 inch stainless pipe scored at the sides and bent outward ...on top of which is a welded plate of stainless. Could you expand a bit on the "pot well" and cooking grate inside. For the 36' it is a beast and am looking forward to frying some venison steaks on it. ..thanks Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I have had two propane stoves, one in a camper, and now one in a boat. I have not had a problem, yet, but I watch my propane like a hawk, and shut it off even at home. > > I have used a methyl alcohol stove on a boat. It is old and works OK. The stove has blown out a couple of times, and, when it does, the methyl alcohol vapours are quite bitter and noxious and burn the eyes. The only thing I really like about alcohol is, I can extinguish it with water, if needed. > > A kerosene stove looks interesting, but no experience yet. > > I think I would prefer to weld a pot well into the top of a small wood stove with a cooking grate inside, and use it most of the time. For those who have never cooked inside a woodstove, think tinfoil and oven. I do it all the time at my cabin. Wood floats, it does not run down into your bilge and stink, it cannot blow up your boat, it can also be extinguished with water, and it is generally low-cost. > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:01:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Propane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a Force 10 kerosene oven/stove combination that I bought second had and like it alot. i have never used the oven and use a pressure cooker to make bread. i bought some different nipples that allow one to use diesel but have not installed them yet. I built a hatch over the stove which really helps vent . This is on my catamaran. Force 10 does not sell the burners anymore but I have a source which I can probably find if anybody wants it. There is a site online for people interested in old gas/kerosene/diesel stoves and lanterns. To replace a burner was around $75. > > > > This guy sells kerosene stoves for the survivalist market > > http://www.endtimesreport.com/kerosene_cookers.html > > > > These are english marine kerosene cookers http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/prod02.htm > > > > MarkH > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27908|27908|2012-03-23 23:06:06|Mark Hamill|Kerosene Burners|Well this may seem a dumb ass post but finding these frickin burners has been difficult--so here is a source. http://packstoves.net/cart/ From Shirlene hellomark We are having 207 kerosene burners made, should be ready in about 2 weeks..Portugal ( patra) where we got burners are no longer in business, we have a waiting list for burners, I'll put your name on the list..How many burner do you need ? Thank you Shirlene/A&H [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27909|27900|2012-03-24 06:30:12|Kim|Re: Around the Horn|Congratulations Steve!! You have just conquered the Everest of the sea! Well done! Rounding Cape Horn in a small boat is most definitely not for the faint-hearted, and is an achievement that's held in awe by probably all yachties. And well done, Brent, for designing boats that can safely embark on such adventures! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Silas Crosby, a twin keel 36 footer, just became the first Brentboat to round Cape Horn; from east to west. | 27910|27898|2012-03-24 16:10:42|James Pronk|Re: Hundested Controllable Pitch Propeller System for Sale|Excellent work Doug and Kay I have been loving the videos, they have been very inspiring for my wife and I. Thank you, James --- On Thu, 3/22/12, Doug - SubmarineBoat.com wrote: From: Doug - SubmarineBoat.com Subject: [origamiboats] Hundested Controllable Pitch Propeller System for Sale To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 9:19 PM   We got our first NiBrAl propeller blade make. Well, our first usable propeller blade. :) The one that failed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKO0XTKbEeo The one that worked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs4q-QZmNpY Paul Liebenberg still has the port side unit that is missing the same part that mine was, but we now have the brass casting that can make the missing part and we are currently making blades. If you need a great motorsailer setup and used prices now is the time to speak up and make an offer. I can cast blades for you or supply the pattern. And Paul has everything else. You can see details of this setup here: http://www.submarineboat.com/controllable_pitch_propeller.htm Thanks Doug Tulsa, OK [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27911|3366|2012-03-24 17:56:40|Matt Malone|Re: Propane|OK Gary, first what I *have* done: I have a woodstove in my cabin -- as in "small terrestrial cottage" -- sorry if anyone misunderstood that to be the inside of a boat-cabin, I have a couple of those, but no woodstove in them at this moment. The firebox measures about 16"x16"x24". It is an airtight design with a single large thick door, with a fibreglass gasket. I have seen the gasket material available in woodstove stores, along with the special silicon glue to install them. My Mom changed the gasket in a stove once, looked easy, so, with a welder and a gasket, any shape woodstove is just a matter of time. The one below is sort of like my cabin woodstove, but mine is just 1/4 steel plate, kind of plain looking, with no disks in the top. http://www.flickr.com/photos/maddiemcwa/2863103850/sizes/l/in/photostream/ I place two 1/4 logs 4" in radius (from an 8" tree) down either side of the firebox leaving a gap of about 8" between them. I then bridge this with 2-4 sticks of cooking wood (1/2" x1/2" x 1 foot split-small) then I place more cooking wood long-way on the bridge. I place newspapers under and light it. When the bridge sticks break easily, the entire mess of cooking wood is near coals and ready to cook. I poker all of the coals down between the two 1/4 logs, leaving the top of the logs clear. I then place a heavy steel grate (1/4" rods) from a gas barbeque across the two 1/4 logs. I take my steak, lay it on tinfoil, double the tinfoil back over it, crimp at the edges and throw it on the grate. Try to get the tinfoil near sealed, but not perfectly if you are using an aromatic wood like red oak. Close the door and nearly close the draft. Leave it cook not much more than 5 minutes or so, about the same as a steak on a pre-heated gas bbq. One can remove it from the foil and toss it back in for 30 seconds per side to make it look more grilled, but it will burn fast so, careful. Letting a little smoke into to tinfoil to the meat gives it a smoke flavour, very pleasant with good wood. Cooking open, just on tinfoil, nothing covering it, makes it so smokey, it is like jerky flavour, very strong. Finishing an entire steak could easily cause a little stomach upset. Not something I would do on a boat. (I have made the not-so-good-food on a rough day error -- not good, you wish you hadn't eaten at all.) Pork (with and without pineapple), lamb, sausages, steak, roasts, porketta, fish (mmmm salmon), frozen veggies (add the margarine in the tinfoil -- double what you want in the end, if vapourizes), reheating already cooked stuff, all good. I imagine a bread-loaf pan would work well and be reuseable for vegies or simmers like pork&pineapple, or ribs&sauce, but I have never tried the bread-loaf pan. Beef steaks up to 1" I cook from frozen, lamb, no matter how thin must be fully thawed. Canned food is great too, and a great way to get others up in the morning.... especially maple flavour beans. Nip the can twice on the top with a can-opener, 180 degrees apart, so it can vent. Beans and Beefaroni are best. Ravioli is a bit tougher, you have to keep the heat lower so the perculation has time to cook it through before it tans and then burns to the bottom of the can. In general always keep the heat low on cans, they have coatings on the inside, maybe plastic, that is not good to overheat. To control the heat: pack the coals in tight together, less airspace to calm the heat, loosen them and open the draft a bit to boost the heat. OK, that works really well. Any woodstove I make will definitely have a grate in it, removable maybe, on tangs, so, when removed, the entire firebox can be filled with wood (like for warming up the cabin, or holding it over night). Now, what I have not done... I have tried boiling water on top of my stove. It really does not work well even in a 1/2 spherical shiny kettle. The stove has to be roaring, the outside dangerously hot, and little of the heat is going into the kettle. The heat transfer is poor. Old stoves like the one in the photo had these round pieces in the top that could be lifted out exposing a round hole into the firebox. Kettles were 3/4 spherical, with a flat bottom, and pots had a round bilge on the bottom. You then place a pot in the hole, hanging in a little, sort of like sitting in an outhouse, the pot blocks the hole with pot's rounded bilge is exposed to the fire. I know this works well, my older relatives used such stoves. But it requires gravity to hold the metal disks on when the pot is not there, and requires gravity to hold the pot to the hole when the pot is there. I figure this is a really bad idea on a boat, as the boat bounces and heels. So I was thinking, think of a large coffee can, sunk 3/4 way into the top of the stove, welded in place. Then have a pot that is just a little smaller than the coffee can, and slip it inside. One could have two lids, one on the pot, and a second on the coffee can, at least one would be latched on, but vented. The pot would be tall for its diameter, but never more than 1/2 full, to keep it from slopping. This would provide more thermal transfer to the pot without exposing the fire. OK, now one better. Look at the disks on the top of the stove in the photo. Imagine cutting a round hole, in them, and weld the coffee can in the hole in the disk, again 3/4 the want sunk in. Now drill and tap a hole in the stove top just beside the disk, put a bolt, tang, and wingnut on it, and tighten it down. The tang holds the disk down near its edge. I would use 3+ hold-downs. Why? Because, I want to remove the disk/coffee-can to wash spills out, and I want to be able to turn it upside down with the coffee can sticking 3/4 the way up out of the top of the stove, to burn it clean, to free up space in the fire box to put more wood in, and to have better heat transfer to the boat cabin. Not strike the coffee can, that was just a mind-picture thing, and build the same shape out of 1/4 steel plate and heavy pipe. I would have a blank disk to cover the hole when I do not have the well installed. I would have 2 wells, one larger, one smaller, to fit a larger and smaller pot. I might have a disk with 3 or 4 deep wells (muffin tray pattern) just big enough to put a small tin of canned food. Retrieve it with pliers. That is the picture I have in my mind. The coffee can-shaped thing is the well for a pot and it essentially sinks the pot into the top of the stove, improving heat transfer. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: aguysailing@... Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 00:18:30 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Propane Hi Matt... just had Brent buzz me up a woodstove out of stainless. Size is 20 inches long built from 12 inch stainless pipe scored at the sides and bent outward ...on top of which is a welded plate of stainless. Could you expand a bit on the "pot well" and cooking grate inside. For the 36' it is a beast and am looking forward to frying some venison steaks on it. ..thanks Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I have had two propane stoves, one in a camper, and now one in a boat. I have not had a problem, yet, but I watch my propane like a hawk, and shut it off even at home. > > I have used a methyl alcohol stove on a boat. It is old and works OK. The stove has blown out a couple of times, and, when it does, the methyl alcohol vapours are quite bitter and noxious and burn the eyes. The only thing I really like about alcohol is, I can extinguish it with water, if needed. > > A kerosene stove looks interesting, but no experience yet. > > I think I would prefer to weld a pot well into the top of a small wood stove with a cooking grate inside, and use it most of the time. For those who have never cooked inside a woodstove, think tinfoil and oven. I do it all the time at my cabin. Wood floats, it does not run down into your bilge and stink, it cannot blow up your boat, it can also be extinguished with water, and it is generally low-cost. > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:01:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Propane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a Force 10 kerosene oven/stove combination that I bought second had and like it alot. i have never used the oven and use a pressure cooker to make bread. i bought some different nipples that allow one to use diesel but have not installed them yet. I built a hatch over the stove which really helps vent . This is on my catamaran. Force 10 does not sell the burners anymore but I have a source which I can probably find if anybody wants it. There is a site online for people interested in old gas/kerosene/diesel stoves and lanterns. To replace a burner was around $75. > > > > This guy sells kerosene stoves for the survivalist market > > http://www.endtimesreport.com/kerosene_cookers.html > > > > These are english marine kerosene cookers http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/prod02.htm > > > > MarkH > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27912|3366|2012-03-24 19:44:42|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: Propane/wood stove / cans|Wonderful stove ideas especially the indent in the top for a pot increasing the heat of the pot. Great! But on consuming food from cans...... Cans used to be lined with a zinc coating. It would be difficult to find any can coated with anything but plastic now. And the plastic that coats cans is the BPA kind that allows the molecules that switch on hormone receptors to be switched. Very small amounts, almost un measurably small and in parts per million are thought to interfere with bodily systems including being a culprit in prostrate and breast cancer and almost certainly in the rapid rise in obesity.      Nip  the can twice on the top with a can-opener, 180 degrees apart,  > so it can vent.   > burns to the bottom of the can.    In general always  > keep the heat low on cans, they have coatings on the inside,  > maybe plastic, that is not good to overheat.    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A#Neurological_issues [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27913|3366|2012-03-24 20:18:01|brentswain38|Re: Propane|If ,instead of a lift out lid, dangerous in a knock down, you weld a very thing piece of stainless sheet over the hole ,it is almost as hot as a direct flame, and much safer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > OK Gary, first what I *have* done: > > I have a woodstove in my cabin -- as in "small terrestrial cottage" -- sorry if anyone misunderstood that to be the inside of a boat-cabin, I have a couple of those, but no woodstove in them at this moment. The firebox measures about 16"x16"x24". It is an airtight design with a single large thick door, with a fibreglass gasket. I have seen the gasket material available in woodstove stores, along with the special silicon glue to install them. My Mom changed the gasket in a stove once, looked easy, so, with a welder and a gasket, any shape woodstove is just a matter of time. The one below is sort of like my cabin woodstove, but mine is just 1/4 steel plate, kind of plain looking, with no disks in the top. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/maddiemcwa/2863103850/sizes/l/in/photostream/ > > I place two 1/4 logs 4" in radius (from an 8" tree) down either side of the firebox leaving a gap of about 8" between them. I then bridge this with 2-4 sticks of cooking wood (1/2" x1/2" x 1 foot split-small) then I place more cooking wood long-way on the bridge. I place newspapers under and light it. When the bridge sticks break easily, the entire mess of cooking wood is near coals and ready to cook. I poker all of the coals down between the two 1/4 logs, leaving the top of the logs clear. I then place a heavy steel grate (1/4" rods) from a gas barbeque across the two 1/4 logs. I take my steak, lay it on tinfoil, double the tinfoil back over it, crimp at the edges and throw it on the grate. Try to get the tinfoil near sealed, but not perfectly if you are using an aromatic wood like red oak. Close the door and nearly close the draft. Leave it cook not much more than 5 minutes or so, about the same as a steak on a pre-heated gas bbq. One can remove it from the foil and toss it back in for 30 seconds per side to make it look more grilled, but it will burn fast so, careful. Letting a little smoke into to tinfoil to the meat gives it a smoke flavour, very pleasant with good wood. Cooking open, just on tinfoil, nothing covering it, makes it so smokey, it is like jerky flavour, very strong. Finishing an entire steak could easily cause a little stomach upset. Not something I would do on a boat. (I have made the not-so-good-food on a rough day error -- not good, you wish you hadn't eaten at all.) > > Pork (with and without pineapple), lamb, sausages, steak, roasts, porketta, fish (mmmm salmon), frozen veggies (add the margarine in the tinfoil -- double what you want in the end, if vapourizes), reheating already cooked stuff, all good. I imagine a bread-loaf pan would work well and be reuseable for vegies or simmers like pork&pineapple, or ribs&sauce, but I have never tried the bread-loaf pan. Beef steaks up to 1" I cook from frozen, lamb, no matter how thin must be fully thawed. > > Canned food is great too, and a great way to get others up in the morning.... especially maple flavour beans. Nip the can twice on the top with a can-opener, 180 degrees apart, so it can vent. Beans and Beefaroni are best. Ravioli is a bit tougher, you have to keep the heat lower so the perculation has time to cook it through before it tans and then burns to the bottom of the can. In general always keep the heat low on cans, they have coatings on the inside, maybe plastic, that is not good to overheat. > > To control the heat: pack the coals in tight together, less airspace to calm the heat, loosen them and open the draft a bit to boost the heat. > > OK, that works really well. Any woodstove I make will definitely have a grate in it, removable maybe, on tangs, so, when removed, the entire firebox can be filled with wood (like for warming up the cabin, or holding it over night). > > > Now, what I have not done... > > I have tried boiling water on top of my stove. It really does not work well even in a 1/2 spherical shiny kettle. The stove has to be roaring, the outside dangerously hot, and little of the heat is going into the kettle. The heat transfer is poor. Old stoves like the one in the photo had these round pieces in the top that could be lifted out exposing a round hole into the firebox. Kettles were 3/4 spherical, with a flat bottom, and pots had a round bilge on the bottom. You then place a pot in the hole, hanging in a little, sort of like sitting in an outhouse, the pot blocks the hole with pot's rounded bilge is exposed to the fire. I know this works well, my older relatives used such stoves. But it requires gravity to hold the metal disks on when the pot is not there, and requires gravity to hold the pot to the hole when the pot is there. I figure this is a really bad idea on a boat, as the boat bounces and heels. So I was thinking, think of a large coffee can, sunk 3/4 way into the top of the stove, welded in place. Then have a pot that is just a little smaller than the coffee can, and slip it inside. One could have two lids, one on the pot, and a second on the coffee can, at least one would be latched on, but vented. The pot would be tall for its diameter, but never more than 1/2 full, to keep it from slopping. This would provide more thermal transfer to the pot without exposing the fire. OK, now one better. Look at the disks on the top of the stove in the photo. Imagine cutting a round hole, in them, and weld the coffee can in the hole in the disk, again 3/4 the want sunk in. Now drill and tap a hole in the stove top just beside the disk, put a bolt, tang, and wingnut on it, and tighten it down. The tang holds the disk down near its edge. I would use 3+ hold-downs. Why? Because, I want to remove the disk/coffee-can to wash spills out, and I want to be able to turn it upside down with the coffee can sticking 3/4 the way up out of the top of the stove, to burn it clean, to free up space in the fire box to put more wood in, and to have better heat transfer to the boat cabin. Not strike the coffee can, that was just a mind-picture thing, and build the same shape out of 1/4 steel plate and heavy pipe. I would have a blank disk to cover the hole when I do not have the well installed. I would have 2 wells, one larger, one smaller, to fit a larger and smaller pot. I might have a disk with 3 or 4 deep wells (muffin tray pattern) just big enough to put a small tin of canned food. Retrieve it with pliers. > > That is the picture I have in my mind. The coffee can-shaped thing is the well for a pot and it essentially sinks the pot into the top of the stove, improving heat transfer. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: aguysailing@... > Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 00:18:30 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Propane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Matt... just had Brent buzz me up a woodstove out of stainless. Size is 20 inches long built from 12 inch stainless pipe scored at the sides and bent outward ...on top of which is a welded plate of stainless. Could you expand a bit on the "pot well" and cooking grate inside. For the 36' it is a beast and am looking forward to frying some venison steaks on it. > > > > ..thanks Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have had two propane stoves, one in a camper, and now one in a boat. I have not had a problem, yet, but I watch my propane like a hawk, and shut it off even at home. > > > > > > I have used a methyl alcohol stove on a boat. It is old and works OK. The stove has blown out a couple of times, and, when it does, the methyl alcohol vapours are quite bitter and noxious and burn the eyes. The only thing I really like about alcohol is, I can extinguish it with water, if needed. > > > > > > A kerosene stove looks interesting, but no experience yet. > > > > > > I think I would prefer to weld a pot well into the top of a small wood stove with a cooking grate inside, and use it most of the time. For those who have never cooked inside a woodstove, think tinfoil and oven. I do it all the time at my cabin. Wood floats, it does not run down into your bilge and stink, it cannot blow up your boat, it can also be extinguished with water, and it is generally low-cost. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: mhamill1@ > > > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:01:34 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Propane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a Force 10 kerosene oven/stove combination that I bought second had and like it alot. i have never used the oven and use a pressure cooker to make bread. i bought some different nipples that allow one to use diesel but have not installed them yet. I built a hatch over the stove which really helps vent . This is on my catamaran. Force 10 does not sell the burners anymore but I have a source which I can probably find if anybody wants it. There is a site online for people interested in old gas/kerosene/diesel stoves and lanterns. To replace a burner was around $75. > > > > > > > > > > > > This guy sells kerosene stoves for the survivalist market > > > > > > http://www.endtimesreport.com/kerosene_cookers.html > > > > > > > > > > > > These are english marine kerosene cookers http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/prod02.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > MarkH > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27914|3366|2012-03-24 20:21:11|brentswain38|Re: Propane/wood stove / cans|I once got nasty food poisoning from canned beans, when the seal had failed. Now I eat only dried beans that I have soaked and cooked myself. Much cheaper too. The more rarely you use a can opener, the lower your cost of cruising. Mine is very rarely used. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > Wonderful stove ideas especially the indent in the top for a pot increasing the heat of the pot. Great! > > > But on consuming food from cans...... > > > Cans used to be lined with a zinc coating. > > It would be difficult to find any can coated with anything but plastic now. > > And the plastic that coats cans is the BPA kind that allows the molecules that switch on hormone receptors to be switched. > > Very small amounts, almost un measurably small and in parts per million are thought to interfere with bodily systems including being a culprit in prostrate and breast cancer and almost certainly in the rapid rise in obesity. > >   >    Nip  the can twice on the top with a can-opener, 180 degrees apart,  > > so it can vent.   > > burns to the bottom of the can.    > In general always  > > keep the heat low on cans, they have coatings on the inside,  > > maybe plastic, that is not good to overheat.  > >   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A#Neurological_issues > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27915|27915|2012-03-24 23:41:41|wild_explorer|Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|Looks interesting http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/pg/index.html http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/indigirka/index.html| 27916|3366|2012-03-25 00:37:07|wild_explorer|Marine Stove (Re: Propane)|Why not to use pressure cooker recessed into the stove? No spills, no mess. May require some separators to prevent escape of liquid through pressure relive valve. There are several ideas could be found on survival websites (from cooking canned food on a candle to more advanced solutions) Good stoves are usually made from cast iron. Welding cast iron: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-how-to/Pages/welding-cast-iron-detail.aspx Another solution is to attach slow-cooker (with ceramic bowl) into the stove (modify it from electric one). I saw cooking tops for cast iron stoves made as a set of flanged rings which inserts into each other to make a flat cook-top. You can put different pot sizes by removing ones from the center. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I have tried boiling water on top of my stove. It really does not work well even in a 1/2 spherical shiny kettle. The stove has to be roaring, the outside dangerously hot, and little of the heat is going into the kettle. The heat transfer is poor. Old stoves like the one in the photo had these round pieces in the top that could be lifted out exposing a round hole into the firebox. Kettles were 3/4 spherical, with a flat bottom, and pots had a round bilge on the bottom. You then place a pot in the hole, hanging in a little, sort of like sitting in an outhouse, the pot blocks the hole with pot's rounded bilge is exposed to the fire. I know this works well, my older relatives used such stoves. But it requires gravity to hold the metal disks on when the pot is not there, and requires gravity to hold the pot to the hole when the pot is there. I figure this is a really bad idea on a boat, as the boat bounces and heels. So I was thinking, think of a large coffee can, sunk 3/4 way into the top of the stove, welded in place. Then have a pot that is just a little smaller than the coffee can, and slip it inside. One could have two lids, one on the pot, and a second on the coffee can, at least one would be latched on, but vented. The pot would be tall for its diameter, but never more than 1/2 full, to keep it from slopping. This would provide more thermal transfer to the pot without exposing the fire. OK, now one better. Look at the disks on the top of the stove in the photo. Imagine cutting a round hole, in them, and weld the coffee can in the hole in the disk, again 3/4 the want sunk in. Now drill and tap a hole in the stove top just beside the disk, put a bolt, tang, and wingnut on it, and tighten it down. The tang holds the disk down near its edge. I would use 3+ hold-downs. Why? Because, I want to remove the disk/coffee-can to wash spills out, and I want to be able to turn it upside down with the coffee can sticking 3/4 the way up out of the top of the stove, to burn it clean, to free up space in the fire box to put more wood in, and to have better heat transfer to the boat cabin. Not strike the coffee can, that was just a mind-picture thing, and build the same shape out of 1/4 steel plate and heavy pipe. I would have a blank disk to cover the hole when I do not have the well installed. I would have 2 wells, one larger, one smaller, to fit a larger and smaller pot. I might have a disk with 3 or 4 deep wells (muffin tray pattern) just big enough to put a small tin of canned food. Retrieve it with pliers. > > That is the picture I have in my mind. The coffee can-shaped thing is the well for a pot and it essentially sinks the pot into the top of the stove, improving heat transfer. > > Matt | 27917|3366|2012-03-25 06:38:36|Matt Malone|Re: Propane/wood stove / cans|Eating food from cans...I don't know what you are talking about. But I was wondering about those growths, and ... OK, point taken on that. As BPA was introduced into nearly everything in 1957, I would say, my most important exposure was long ago. Strictly speaking, tinfoil is of course aluminium foil, and I am sure that is not good for you either, especially when the food burns a bit. A non-plastic coated baking pan, not easy to find around here, would help. Welding a thin layer of stainless over a hole -- that is good. I believe the reason my stove is not so good at boiling a kettle is, it builds up creasote-like deposits on the inside, even though I do not burn conifer wood. That layer appears to be quite insulating. I scrape it off from time to time of course. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ian.jean@... Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:44:42 -0700 Subject: Re: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Propane/wood stove / cans Wonderful stove ideas especially the indent in the top for a pot increasing the heat of the pot. Great! But on consuming food from cans...... Cans used to be lined with a zinc coating. It would be difficult to find any can coated with anything but plastic now. And the plastic that coats cans is the BPA kind that allows the molecules that switch on hormone receptors to be switched. Very small amounts, almost un measurably small and in parts per million are thought to interfere with bodily systems including being a culprit in prostrate and breast cancer and almost certainly in the rapid rise in obesity. Nip the can twice on the top with a can-opener, 180 degrees apart, > so it can vent. > burns to the bottom of the can. In general always > keep the heat low on cans, they have coatings on the inside, > maybe plastic, that is not good to overheat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A#Neurological_issues [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27918|27856|2012-03-25 10:06:43|badpirate36|Re: stuffing box not driping|Gord, She's a 36' aluminum B/S, no name yet but reg. no. bc2244100. I just moved down the street from the marina a few weeks ago and the boat will be here in the next week or so. So I guess we're neighbors. drop me a line and we'll get together and talk boat Tom badpirate@... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Tom > I am located just another 1/2 km up river from there. What does your boat look like, name, etc? > Gord > On 2012-03-21, at 7:09 AM, badpirate36 wrote: > > > Hi Gord, > > I stumbled onto Ron Francis marina three months ago on craigs list. It's a small ma & pa marina of maybe 15 boats in the queensbough slough just up river from shelter island marina. there are a few more small marina in this area, but it's a long way from the ocean > > > > Tom > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > > > Tom > > > Where are you moving your boat to......I live very close to the Fraser and will be launching in the spring. Just wondering about moorage. > > > Gord > > > | 27919|3366|2012-03-25 13:23:31|Mark Hamill|Re: Marine Stove (Re: Propane)|Wild: I emailed the Russian stove company and this was their reply. Gorgeous stoves--lots of other things like portable wood fired saunas and smokers etc--but--not cheap. MarkH "Cost of the Indigirka-2 Hello, MSRP for the stove was 2500USD, but now we don't sale them, and began the R&D project to decrease costs and improve the durability. I will save your contact for future. Thanks, Vladimir" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27920|27864|2012-03-25 17:08:42|Helmut Schlager|Re: motorjacht from the 26 footbrent swain- origamiyacht?|Am 21.03.2012 19:28, schrieb brentswain38: > > It shouldn't be a problem,if you don't plan on planing. It is a > displacement hull and overpowering it will suck the stern down a lot. > The larger transom on the 26 should help a lot. I wouldn't go too high > with the wheelhouse. As long as you can see over the fore hatch , > going much higher wont give you any better visibility. It will reduce > access to counter space under the side decks. > Hi Brent I wont go into planing speed - most canals allows only very reduced speed - what hullspeed is possible -what power is needed? there can I see/find general layout of floorplan - dimensions of cabin- wheelhouse? Helmut > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "wild_explorer" > wrote: > > > > It should not be a problem to convert Brent's hull to a motorboat. > Motorboat does not have high mast, and stability requirements for a > motorboat is less than for a sailboat. It will have decent stability. > > > > Longitudinal weight distribution should not be a problem. You can > replace single sailboat's keel by two aft-located H-beam stabilizers > (flash to a center-line midships in side view) and level to > horizontal. It will allow you to extend pilot-house forward and reduce > draft. > > > > OR... you can ask Brent to scale down his 36 footer and make > twin-hull powerboat (similar to twin-hull ferry). It will allow to > make huge living area on a platform between hulls. Such boat should > have good stability and smaller engines as well than mono-hull. > > > > Downside: it will not allow to go planning (limited to hull's speed) > and waste fuel as many powerboats do ;) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Helmut Schlager > wrote: > > > > > > hello all > > > anybody anytime has done a motorboat (with larger cabine) from brents > > > boat? -how? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27921|3366|2012-03-25 17:16:46|wild_explorer|Marine Stove (Re: Propane)|Mark, More likely this MSRP is for western market. MSRP in Russia is about $1500. And I suspect most of it is for electricity generating module. For example, price for similar stove is about $200 (in Russia). See link below how it looks like - very similar (same company). http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/Cinderella/index.html I saw some designs (different company) with pipes going from the bottom and trough the stove (about 3/4 length) and terminated on the top (similar what Matt suggested). I could not find the image now ;( --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Wild: I emailed the Russian stove company and this was their reply. Gorgeous stoves--lots of other things like portable wood fired saunas and smokers etc--but--not cheap. MarkH > > "Cost of the Indigirka-2 > Hello, > MSRP for the stove was 2500USD, but now we don't sale them, and began the R&D project to decrease costs and improve the durability. I will save your contact for future. > > Thanks, Vladimir" > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27922|3366|2012-03-25 18:20:10|GP|Re: Propane|Awesome Matt... thanks Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > OK Gary, first what I *have* done: > > I have a woodstove in my cabin -- as in "small terrestrial cottage" -- sorry if anyone misunderstood that to be the inside of a boat-cabin, I have a couple of those, but no woodstove in them at this moment. The firebox measures about 16"x16"x24". It is an airtight design with a single large thick door, with a fibreglass gasket. I have seen the gasket material available in woodstove stores, along with the special silicon glue to install them. My Mom changed the gasket in a stove once, looked easy, so, with a welder and a gasket, any shape woodstove is just a matter of time. The one below is sort of like my cabin woodstove, but mine is just 1/4 steel plate, kind of plain looking, with no disks in the top. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/maddiemcwa/2863103850/sizes/l/in/photostream/ > > I place two 1/4 logs 4" in radius (from an 8" tree) down either side of the firebox leaving a gap of about 8" between them. I then bridge this with 2-4 sticks of cooking wood (1/2" x1/2" x 1 foot split-small) then I place more cooking wood long-way on the bridge. I place newspapers under and light it. When the bridge sticks break easily, the entire mess of cooking wood is near coals and ready to cook. I poker all of the coals down between the two 1/4 logs, leaving the top of the logs clear. I then place a heavy steel grate (1/4" rods) from a gas barbeque across the two 1/4 logs. I take my steak, lay it on tinfoil, double the tinfoil back over it, crimp at the edges and throw it on the grate. Try to get the tinfoil near sealed, but not perfectly if you are using an aromatic wood like red oak. Close the door and nearly close the draft. Leave it cook not much more than 5 minutes or so, about the same as a steak on a pre-heated gas bbq. One can remove it from the foil and toss it back in for 30 seconds per side to make it look more grilled, but it will burn fast so, careful. Letting a little smoke into to tinfoil to the meat gives it a smoke flavour, very pleasant with good wood. Cooking open, just on tinfoil, nothing covering it, makes it so smokey, it is like jerky flavour, very strong. Finishing an entire steak could easily cause a little stomach upset. Not something I would do on a boat. (I have made the not-so-good-food on a rough day error -- not good, you wish you hadn't eaten at all.) > > Pork (with and without pineapple), lamb, sausages, steak, roasts, porketta, fish (mmmm salmon), frozen veggies (add the margarine in the tinfoil -- double what you want in the end, if vapourizes), reheating already cooked stuff, all good. I imagine a bread-loaf pan would work well and be reuseable for vegies or simmers like pork&pineapple, or ribs&sauce, but I have never tried the bread-loaf pan. Beef steaks up to 1" I cook from frozen, lamb, no matter how thin must be fully thawed. > > Canned food is great too, and a great way to get others up in the morning.... especially maple flavour beans. Nip the can twice on the top with a can-opener, 180 degrees apart, so it can vent. Beans and Beefaroni are best. Ravioli is a bit tougher, you have to keep the heat lower so the perculation has time to cook it through before it tans and then burns to the bottom of the can. In general always keep the heat low on cans, they have coatings on the inside, maybe plastic, that is not good to overheat. > > To control the heat: pack the coals in tight together, less airspace to calm the heat, loosen them and open the draft a bit to boost the heat. > > OK, that works really well. Any woodstove I make will definitely have a grate in it, removable maybe, on tangs, so, when removed, the entire firebox can be filled with wood (like for warming up the cabin, or holding it over night). > > > Now, what I have not done... > > I have tried boiling water on top of my stove. It really does not work well even in a 1/2 spherical shiny kettle. The stove has to be roaring, the outside dangerously hot, and little of the heat is going into the kettle. The heat transfer is poor. Old stoves like the one in the photo had these round pieces in the top that could be lifted out exposing a round hole into the firebox. Kettles were 3/4 spherical, with a flat bottom, and pots had a round bilge on the bottom. You then place a pot in the hole, hanging in a little, sort of like sitting in an outhouse, the pot blocks the hole with pot's rounded bilge is exposed to the fire. I know this works well, my older relatives used such stoves. But it requires gravity to hold the metal disks on when the pot is not there, and requires gravity to hold the pot to the hole when the pot is there. I figure this is a really bad idea on a boat, as the boat bounces and heels. So I was thinking, think of a large coffee can, sunk 3/4 way into the top of the stove, welded in place. Then have a pot that is just a little smaller than the coffee can, and slip it inside. One could have two lids, one on the pot, and a second on the coffee can, at least one would be latched on, but vented. The pot would be tall for its diameter, but never more than 1/2 full, to keep it from slopping. This would provide more thermal transfer to the pot without exposing the fire. OK, now one better. Look at the disks on the top of the stove in the photo. Imagine cutting a round hole, in them, and weld the coffee can in the hole in the disk, again 3/4 the want sunk in. Now drill and tap a hole in the stove top just beside the disk, put a bolt, tang, and wingnut on it, and tighten it down. The tang holds the disk down near its edge. I would use 3+ hold-downs. Why? Because, I want to remove the disk/coffee-can to wash spills out, and I want to be able to turn it upside down with the coffee can sticking 3/4 the way up out of the top of the stove, to burn it clean, to free up space in the fire box to put more wood in, and to have better heat transfer to the boat cabin. Not strike the coffee can, that was just a mind-picture thing, and build the same shape out of 1/4 steel plate and heavy pipe. I would have a blank disk to cover the hole when I do not have the well installed. I would have 2 wells, one larger, one smaller, to fit a larger and smaller pot. I might have a disk with 3 or 4 deep wells (muffin tray pattern) just big enough to put a small tin of canned food. Retrieve it with pliers. > > That is the picture I have in my mind. The coffee can-shaped thing is the well for a pot and it essentially sinks the pot into the top of the stove, improving heat transfer. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: aguysailing@... > Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 00:18:30 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Propane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Matt... just had Brent buzz me up a woodstove out of stainless. Size is 20 inches long built from 12 inch stainless pipe scored at the sides and bent outward ...on top of which is a welded plate of stainless. Could you expand a bit on the "pot well" and cooking grate inside. For the 36' it is a beast and am looking forward to frying some venison steaks on it. > > > > ..thanks Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have had two propane stoves, one in a camper, and now one in a boat. I have not had a problem, yet, but I watch my propane like a hawk, and shut it off even at home. > > > > > > I have used a methyl alcohol stove on a boat. It is old and works OK. The stove has blown out a couple of times, and, when it does, the methyl alcohol vapours are quite bitter and noxious and burn the eyes. The only thing I really like about alcohol is, I can extinguish it with water, if needed. > > > > > > A kerosene stove looks interesting, but no experience yet. > > > > > > I think I would prefer to weld a pot well into the top of a small wood stove with a cooking grate inside, and use it most of the time. For those who have never cooked inside a woodstove, think tinfoil and oven. I do it all the time at my cabin. Wood floats, it does not run down into your bilge and stink, it cannot blow up your boat, it can also be extinguished with water, and it is generally low-cost. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: mhamill1@ > > > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:01:34 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Propane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a Force 10 kerosene oven/stove combination that I bought second had and like it alot. i have never used the oven and use a pressure cooker to make bread. i bought some different nipples that allow one to use diesel but have not installed them yet. I built a hatch over the stove which really helps vent . This is on my catamaran. Force 10 does not sell the burners anymore but I have a source which I can probably find if anybody wants it. There is a site online for people interested in old gas/kerosene/diesel stoves and lanterns. To replace a burner was around $75. > > > > > > > > > > > > This guy sells kerosene stoves for the survivalist market > > > > > > http://www.endtimesreport.com/kerosene_cookers.html > > > > > > > > > > > > These are english marine kerosene cookers http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/prod02.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > MarkH > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27923|27864|2012-03-26 06:02:09|Kim|Re: motorjacht from the 26 footbrent swain- origamiyacht?|Hi Helmut ... I'm building a Swain 26. Although it's nowhere near finished, some of the photo's on its website will give you an idea of the volume of its interior: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht It's huge inside! In an earlier message to this group Brent once said "the BS 26 has full headroom and is liveable. It has the interior room of an Alberg 30". Brent doesn't supply an interior/accommodation plan because most builders will build the interior the way they want it anyway. None of the interior accommodation is structural, so you can really arrange it however you like. It has a designed waterline length of 22' 0". As it's a displacement hull, its top speed wont go much over 1.5 x sq.rt. of the WL, which is about 7 knots. I think that for a boat like this a bit under 5 knots would probably be a comfortable motoring speed in calm water. Its designed displacement is 3 ton, so I think about a 12HP diesel should do the job. The twin keel version has about 3ft draft as designed. If you were *never* going to put a sailing rig on it you might be able to build the twin keels so that they were level with the bottom of the hull. That would save you 10" draft. But check with Brent first before changing anything like that. Hope this helps! Cheers ... Kim. _________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Helmut Schlager wrote: > Hi Brent > I wont go into planing speed - most canals allows only very reduced > speed - what hullspeed is possible -what power is needed? > there can I see/find general layout of floorplan - dimensions of cabin- > wheelhouse? > > Helmut _________________________________________ | 27924|27915|2012-03-26 12:29:02|Matt Malone|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|Thermo-couple-type electrical power generation has he advantage that is has no moving parts, however the disadvantage that it is horribly inefficient. Note the 50 Watts.... A small wood gas generator (not saying this is safe, or a good thing in a boat) of about the same size can power an engine producing about 20 hp, or about 12,000 Watts of electricity with a good, but realistic components. Many more moving parts in a gen-set, and there is the wood-gas, a poisonous gas, to deal with. I think a wind powered generator is a much better solution for moderate amounts of power. If it were cheap, I might get a thermo-couple-type generator, simply as backup, to charge a battery, to run a radio, to call for help -- no moving parts. Seawater-activated batteries would fill the same role. I am thinking they would be even cheaper, and also have no moving parts. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 03:41:39 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Electricity generating wood heater-cooker Looks interesting http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/pg/index.html http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/indigirka/index.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27925|27915|2012-03-26 14:12:09|wild_explorer|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|Yep, it is very inefficient. Another stove model has power ~2.5kW and generates only 25W of electricity(~1%). As I understand, it was NOT designed to be primary electricity source - just an emergency backup when you use heater/stove anyway. Electricity generating module is too expensive even for a backup. Quick WEB-search revealed that Japanese were interested in this type of product and the fact (according Mark e-mail's quote) that company doing more research and not selling this product, may mean that reliability/price of electricity generating module is not up to the expectations at this point. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Thermo-couple-type electrical power generation has he advantage that is has no moving parts, however the disadvantage that it is horribly inefficient. > > If it were cheap, I might get a thermo-couple-type generator, simply as backup, to charge a battery, to run a radio, to call for help -- no moving parts. Seawater-activated batteries would fill the same role. I am thinking they would be even cheaper, and also have no moving parts. > > Matt | 27926|3366|2012-03-26 15:38:28|brentswain38|Marine Stove (Re: Propane)|Ash tray sounds like a stove with a grate, which drastically reduces wood burning efficiency. Wood burns best in it's own ashes. Much simpler, and better to build your own out of scrapyard stainless. Steel stoves tend to be constantly shedding rust, when used on a boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Mark, > > More likely this MSRP is for western market. MSRP in Russia is about $1500. And I suspect most of it is for electricity generating module. > > For example, price for similar stove is about $200 (in Russia). See link below how it looks like - very similar (same company). > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/Cinderella/index.html > > I saw some designs (different company) with pipes going from the bottom and trough the stove (about 3/4 length) and terminated on the top (similar what Matt suggested). I could not find the image now ;( > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > > > Wild: I emailed the Russian stove company and this was their reply. Gorgeous stoves--lots of other things like portable wood fired saunas and smokers etc--but--not cheap. MarkH > > > > "Cost of the Indigirka-2 > > Hello, > > MSRP for the stove was 2500USD, but now we don't sale them, and began the R&D project to decrease costs and improve the durability. I will save your contact for future. > > > > Thanks, Vladimir" > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 27927|27915|2012-03-26 15:48:11|brentswain38|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|Looks good . 50 watts would give me all the power I need, especially since LEDs have reduced my power usage to milliamps. I wonder if you could just buy the power generator alone, and put it on your own stainless stove. Some one will offer that, eventually. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Looks interesting > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/pg/index.html > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/indigirka/index.html > | 27928|27864|2012-03-26 15:49:39|brentswain38|Re: motorjacht from the 26 footbrent swain- origamiyacht?|12 hp will probably give you 5 to 6 knots easily. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Helmut Schlager wrote: > > Am 21.03.2012 19:28, schrieb brentswain38: > > > > It shouldn't be a problem,if you don't plan on planing. It is a > > displacement hull and overpowering it will suck the stern down a lot. > > The larger transom on the 26 should help a lot. I wouldn't go too high > > with the wheelhouse. As long as you can see over the fore hatch , > > going much higher wont give you any better visibility. It will reduce > > access to counter space under the side decks. > > > Hi Brent > I wont go into planing speed - most canals allows only very reduced > speed - what hullspeed is possible -what power is needed? > there can I see/find general layout of floorplan - dimensions of cabin- > wheelhouse? > > Helmut > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "wild_explorer" > > wrote: > > > > > > It should not be a problem to convert Brent's hull to a motorboat. > > Motorboat does not have high mast, and stability requirements for a > > motorboat is less than for a sailboat. It will have decent stability. > > > > > > Longitudinal weight distribution should not be a problem. You can > > replace single sailboat's keel by two aft-located H-beam stabilizers > > (flash to a center-line midships in side view) and level to > > horizontal. It will allow you to extend pilot-house forward and reduce > > draft. > > > > > > OR... you can ask Brent to scale down his 36 footer and make > > twin-hull powerboat (similar to twin-hull ferry). It will allow to > > make huge living area on a platform between hulls. Such boat should > > have good stability and smaller engines as well than mono-hull. > > > > > > Downside: it will not allow to go planning (limited to hull's speed) > > and waste fuel as many powerboats do ;) > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Helmut Schlager > > wrote: > > > > > > > > hello all > > > > anybody anytime has done a motorboat (with larger cabine) from brents > > > > boat? -how? > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27929|27915|2012-03-26 15:54:26|brentswain38|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|My wood stove is burning most of the time, when I'm aboard in winter, my neighbour runs his 24-7 in winter, so they may was well be generating power. As I don't use more than 50 watts , any more power, at the cost of increased complexity, would be totally irrelevant, and thus unjustifiable. How hot would you have to run the stove to get 25 watts? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Thermo-couple-type electrical power generation has he advantage that is has no moving parts, however the disadvantage that it is horribly inefficient. Note the 50 Watts.... A small wood gas generator (not saying this is safe, or a good thing in a boat) of about the same size can power an engine producing about 20 hp, or about 12,000 Watts of electricity with a good, but realistic components. Many more moving parts in a gen-set, and there is the wood-gas, a poisonous gas, to deal with. > > I think a wind powered generator is a much better solution for moderate amounts of power. > > If it were cheap, I might get a thermo-couple-type generator, simply as backup, to charge a battery, to run a radio, to call for help -- no moving parts. Seawater-activated batteries would fill the same role. I am thinking they would be even cheaper, and also have no moving parts. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 03:41:39 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Electricity generating wood heater-cooker > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks interesting > > > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/pg/index.html > > > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/indigirka/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27930|27915|2012-03-26 16:39:11|paull01|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|Here's a video of another efficient stove (spendy, but suited to a boat)detailing the temps required to generate power. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slsqo30OkDU&feature=player_embedded Also the link to the site associated with it: http://lesharorv.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1539 and the TEG website: http://www.tegpower.com/pro1.htm Paul Seattle --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Looks good . 50 watts would give me all the power I need, especially since LEDs have reduced my power usage to milliamps. I wonder if you could just buy the power generator alone, and put it on your own stainless stove. Some one will offer that, eventually. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Looks interesting > > > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/pg/index.html > > > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/indigirka/index.html > > > | 27931|27915|2012-03-26 17:05:19|akenai@yahoo.com|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|tegpower.com Sent from my Alaska Communications Android -----Original message----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Mar 26, 2012 19:48:15 GMT+00:00 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker Looks good . 50 watts would give me all the power I need, especially since LEDs have reduced my power usage to milliamps. I wonder if you could just buy the power generator alone, and put it on your own stainless stove. Some one will offer that, eventually. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Looks interesting > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/pg/index.html > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/indigirka/index.html > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27932|3366|2012-03-26 18:05:32|wild_explorer|Marine Stove (Re: Propane)|After looking at different wood stoves/heaters design, I think you are talking about wood-gas generating stove. Some of them have "burning from the top" design. You pack the wood (unsplitted round logs cut to certain length) inside the burning compartment, cover voids with wood chips/dust and light it up from the top and close loading door (airtight). After first phase (heating up by burning wood), it start to generate wood gas and goes to second phase - generating and burning wood gas. Such stoves/heaters have efficiency extracting energy from wood about 70-80% and burning time up to 12+ hours on 1 load. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Ash tray sounds like a stove with a grate, which drastically reduces wood burning efficiency. Wood burns best in it's own ashes. Much simpler, and better to build your own out of scrapyard stainless. Steel stoves tend to be constantly shedding rust, when used on a boat. > | 27933|27915|2012-03-26 18:32:00|john dean|LED Lights|Some time ago I found an old message suggesting mounting leds in 1inch clear pastic pipe for anchor lights. The message suggested buying pvc ends and using a dremel tool to make the ends fit the pipe. I web purchased about 40$ worth of blinking and non blinking leds. I ruined many of the leds learning how to solder them up into strings but for the last 2 years I have had very powerful anchor lights. In 2 feet of clear pipe I have seperate blinking and non blinking white and amber strings. A few times I have seen reflections that confused me until I turned mine off. I mounted 3 to 5 strings of 3 leds plus a resistor in plastic bowles for interior lights that work great. I am replacing old wire with 24 or 28 guage speaker wire. The next time my mast comes out I am contemplating removing the heavy vhf cable, some broaked radar coax and the old mast head strobe and its wires. A hand held vhf works fine for bridges and ships and the led lights on the back stay up about 10 feet above the water can be seen for many miles and only use about 0.06 amp/hours. I also built a 3 foot string of red leds  over the chart table and purchased a 15 foot string of tiny surface mount white leds for general lighting. One rule I have adopted is to only use 60 or 70 percent of the maxium forward voltage for the string ie use a bigger resister or more leds. The white leds commonly list 3.3 volts max so I might use 3.3x 0.6 or 2.0 volts. A string might be 6 whites for 12 volts. My night time voltage is usually 12.6 so I would use Ohms law to pick a resister to use the remaining 0.6 volts. If the lights were on during the while charging at 14 + volts they would hopefully survive. The forward voltage can be reduced because the light output is sort of flat between 60 and 100 percent of the forward voltage. Cheers John --- On Mon, 3/26/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 26, 2012, 3:48 PM Looks good . 50 watts would give me all the power I need, especially since LEDs have reduced my power usage to milliamps. I wonder if you could just buy the power generator alone, and put it on your own stainless stove. Some one will offer that, eventually. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Looks interesting > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/pg/index.html > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/indigirka/index.html > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27934|27864|2012-03-26 23:20:04|Aaron|Batteries under water|This couple have had an interesting go with their house batteries. Scroll down the page Aaron     . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27935|27915|2012-03-27 08:03:38|scott|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|http://www.tegpower.com/ here is a company that sells just the thermocouples. Just do a search on google for thermocouples and you can find a huge ammount of info and products. If you can find any of those coolers by coleman that just lower the temp inside by 20 or 30 degrees over ambient they use thermocouples. If you put electricity in they will generate heat/cold. If you apply heat or cold they will generate electricity. You might be able to salvage some out of some of those coolers if you can find them at yard sales. I got one a few years ago for $5. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Looks good . 50 watts would give me all the power I need, especially since LEDs have reduced my power usage to milliamps. I wonder if you could just buy the power generator alone, and put it on your own stainless stove. Some one will offer that, eventually. > | 27936|27915|2012-03-27 10:46:13|haidan|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|Well one can buy these thermoelectric junction thingies and they're not too expensive. It looks to me that that's all it is attached to the back of that russian stove, something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thermoelectric-Heater-Cooler-Peltier-Junction-LWKW-0318-/220917476934?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336fb52e46 Inefficient yes, power output depends completely on the temperature difference between the two side of the peltier junction, which posses some difficulty, heating one side while the other side a 1/4" away from it needs to be kept cool though I suppose one could build a heat sink in that would be up against the hull which would be as cold as you're gonna get. I bought a couple small ones with the intention of using it to power some fans to move air around the boat while the stove is working and no draw on the battery, on the back burner for now but I'll give it a try when I build my new stove in. Never occurred to me that you'd get enough power out of it to power anything big, but I guess a cell phone would be ok. (clip, clip)| 27937|27915|2012-03-27 11:12:01|haidan|Re: LED Lights|I made up an anchor light using some clear plastic tube, clear acrylic I think, annoyingly it isn't made to standard pipe dimensions and I used some bigger ABS pipe caps with lots of sikaflex to make up the difference). I made up the whole assembly inside the tube with the leds pointing outwards, drilled a hole for the wires in the bottom pipe cap and put a bolt through it for the mounting and lots of sikaflex. So far it's still working, LM317 regulator and 20 or so 5mm ultra bright LEDs, oddly the interior lights I made up with the same LEDs and same LM317 died on me but that one is still going even though I use it as my steaming light as well as an anchor light. This is what makes me think it was the cheap LEDs rather than the regulator that failed me as I have used the anchor light more while the engine (high alternator voltage) is running than the interior lights which mostly were used at a lower stable voltage. The interior lights all died within a year or so. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john dean wrote: > > Some time ago I found an old message suggesting mounting leds in 1inch clear pastic pipe for anchor lights. The message suggested buying pvc ends and using a dremel tool to make the ends fit the pipe. I web purchased about 40$ worth of blinking and non blinking leds. I ruined many of the leds learning how to solder them up into strings but for the last 2 years I have had very powerful anchor lights. In 2 feet of clear pipe I have seperate blinking and non blinking white and amber strings. A few times I have seen reflections that confused me until I turned mine off. > I mounted 3 to 5 strings of 3 leds plus a resistor in plastic bowles for interior lights that work great. I am replacing old wire with 24 or 28 guage speaker wire. > The next time my mast comes out I am contemplating removing the heavy vhf cable, some broaked radar coax and the old mast head strobe and its wires. A hand held vhf works fine for bridges and ships and the led lights on the back stay up about 10 feet above the water can be seen for many miles and only use about 0.06 amp/hours. > I also built a 3 foot string of red leds  over the chart table and purchased a 15 foot string of tiny surface mount white leds for general lighting. > One rule I have adopted is to only use 60 or 70 percent of the maxium forward voltage for the string ie use a bigger resister or more leds. The white leds commonly list 3.3 volts max so I might use 3.3x 0.6 or 2.0 volts. A string might be 6 whites for 12 volts. My night time voltage is usually 12.6 so I would use Ohms law to pick a resister to use the remaining 0.6 volts. If the lights were on during the while charging at 14 + volts they would hopefully survive. > The forward voltage can be reduced because the light output is sort of flat between 60 and 100 percent of the forward voltage. > Cheers John > > --- On Mon, 3/26/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, March 26, 2012, 3:48 PM > > Looks good . 50 watts would give me all the power I need, especially since LEDs have reduced my power usage to milliamps. I wonder if you could just buy the power generator alone, and put it on your own stainless stove. Some one will offer that, eventually. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Looks interesting > > > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/pg/index.html > > > > http://www.termofor.ru/eng/products/for_heating/indigirka/index.html > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27938|27915|2012-03-27 13:59:51|wild_explorer|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Well one can buy these thermoelectric junction thingies and they're not too expensive. > Thank you Haidan for getting into component level! I missed that such modules were available as components. It could be used to make refrigerator as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect I would not pay ~ $400 for the module to experiment, but $20 is a reasonable price for 130W (not really 170W) module. Max required temperature difference is ~ 68C (155F). There is High Temperature version too. You may need that one to connect it to a stove. But with a hull as a cooler (module attached to the hull), regular one may be OK (with a heat conductor from the stove). http://www.virtualvillage.com/170w-thermoelectric-cooler-peltier-plate-001540-008.html Specs: http://www.bkbelectronics.com/pdf%20files/TEC1-127120-50.pdf More prices: http://www.hebeiltd.com.cn/?p=z.peltier.pricelist > > Inefficient yes, power output depends completely on the temperature difference between the two side of the peltier junction, which posses some difficulty, heating one side while the other side a 1/4" away from it needs to be kept cool though I suppose one could build a heat sink in that would be up against the hull which would be as cold as you're gonna get. I bought a couple small ones with the intention of using it to power some fans to move air around the boat while the stove is working and no draw on the battery, on the back burner for now but I'll give it a try when I build my new stove in. Never occurred to me that you'd get enough power out of it to power anything big, but I guess a cell phone would be ok. > | 27939|27915|2012-03-27 14:27:12|wild_explorer|Re: LED Lights|LED's are usually rated by the current (not voltage) to provide designed output. Drop voltage is provided as a reference for the calculation. You need to maintain working current ~ 70% of Max allowable current for the LED. It is easy when you put it in series - just measure the current when you adjust voltage regulator. Much trickier when using LED's in parallel and using constant voltage regulator - some LED's may have current higher than allowable MAX current and will burn out, which will increase current for remaining LED's, burn next LED, etc, etc, etc. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > oddly the interior lights I made up with the same LEDs and same LM317 died on me but that one is still going even though I use it as my steaming light as well as an anchor light. > This is what makes me think it was the cheap LEDs rather than the regulator that failed me as I have used the anchor light more while the engine (high alternator voltage) is running than the interior lights which mostly were used at a lower stable voltage. The interior lights all died within a year or so. > | 27940|27915|2012-03-27 16:13:28|haidan|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|Yeah I was thinking I would just bonding some aluminium to the stove, protruding off the edge enough for the peltier and have another piece of aluminum coming off the peltier and running along the hull, there's some sort of heat sink bonding compound you can get to couple the surfaces. My stove currently is too high up and far from the hull for it to be practical but at some point I want to build a new one and put it in another spot, lower down along the hull and I'll experiment with it a bit then.| 27941|27915|2012-03-27 16:30:34|william munger|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|I have been looking into these devices for a while now. I am thinking about if one would work as a cooking element. It would heat your food and cool the galley at the same time. Not a big deal for you guys in cooler waters but could be great for us in hot weather areas. There is a SUPER insulator named Thermablok. I got some free samples from them http://www.thermablok.com/index.htm It is a very interesting product and I think would work well to keep the heat on the hot side and the cool on the cool side of the thermoelectric device. As far as using them for power generation, I think there could be some interesting uses. Say for a cool windless night where you could build a small firebox powered by wood, diesel, or waste oil maybe. Seems to me that it would not take much of a flame to keep a thick walled firebox at a temp that produces the max temp differential needed to generate power. The modules do not seem that expensive really. I am still in research mode on these so I could be totally off base but its at least interesting. William > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27942|27864|2012-03-27 17:02:32|brentswain38|Re: Batteries under water|My non sealed starting battery was under sea water last spring. Lasted another year. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > This couple have had an interesting go with their house batteries. Scroll down the page > Aaron > > � > > > > � > > > > > . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27943|27915|2012-03-27 17:54:42|wild_explorer|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|Slow cookers are available in ~ 70-250 watt range. What I like about it, that no need to watch it. Just load ingredients and the food is ready in 4-8 hours. Low energy consumption may make it ideal to couple it with electricity generating module (without using a stove as the source of heat). Even 250 watt module (advertised as 350W) may not be enough to act as a cook-top for the stove. It has Max operating temperature about 180C (355F). And you need to get that 250-350W of electricity from somewhere. Theoretically, should work OK as cooling module for the refrigerator in tropical climate, together with power generating module (on the difference between hull's and outside air temperature) which will power up cooling module. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, william munger wrote: > > > I have been looking into these devices for a while now. I am thinking > about if one would work as a cooking element. It would heat your food > and cool the galley at the same time. Not a big deal for you guys in > cooler waters but could be great for us in hot weather areas. > | 27944|27915|2012-03-27 18:08:28|william munger|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|The high temp one I was looking at is good for up to 230C (445F) not sure how many watts it would eat at 200C though. the specs they show are for power gen. 0-16volts 0-10.5amps. As far a cooling, I was thinking about making one using these devices but I have read that the "Swing piston" type refrigerators are way more efficient and reliable in hot climates. > Slow cookers are available in ~ 70-250 watt range. What I like about > it, that no need to watch it. Just load ingredients and the food is > ready in 4-8 hours. Low energy consumption may make it ideal to couple > it with electricity generating module (without using a stove as the > source of heat). > > Even 250 watt module (advertised as 350W) may not be enough to act as > a cook-top for the stove. It has Max operating temperature about 180C > (355F). And you need to get that 250-350W of electricity from somewhere. > > Theoretically, should work OK as cooling module for the refrigerator > in tropical climate, together with power generating module (on the > difference between hull's and outside air temperature) which will > power up cooling module.,_._,___ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27945|27915|2012-03-27 20:39:00|wild_explorer|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|Do you have a link to the specs? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, william munger wrote: > > The high temp one I was looking at is good for up to 230C (445F) not > sure how many watts it would eat at 200C though. the specs they show > are for power gen. 0-16volts 0-10.5amps. | 27946|27915|2012-03-27 21:24:23|william munger|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|Here is the one on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/POWER-GENERATION-TEG-HIGH-TEMP-THERMOELECTRIC-PELTIER?item=310155795073&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7308872995112846299 William > > Do you have a link to the specs? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , william munger > wrote: > > > > The high temp one I was looking at is good for up to 230C (445F) not > > sure how many watts it would eat at 200C though. the specs they show > > are for power gen. 0-16volts 0-10.5amps. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27947|27915|2012-03-27 22:57:50|wild_explorer|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|Unfortunately I could not find any OFFICIAL data specs for this model. Even company's profile on Internet (Thermal Enterprises, model HT1-12710). Operating temperature claimed to be -60C to +230C. Data I found for TEC1-12710 from different companies have Max operating temp +90C-140C. There are some information about TEC1-127** I prefer to use official specs for the product. It always looks better in seller advertisement than in reality ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, william munger wrote: > > Here is the one on ebay: | 27948|27915|2012-03-28 04:07:01|wild_explorer|Re: Electricity generating wood heater-cooker|Some information about Power Generation I found (this website has a lot of information): "Thermoelectric Coolers as Power Generators" http://www.tetech.com/publications/pubs/IECEC83RJB.pdf "Thermoelectric Power Generator Design and Selection from TE Cooling Module Specifications" http://www.tetech.com/publications/pubs/ICT97RJB.pdf Technical information & FAQ's http://www.tetech.com/FAQ-Technical-Information.html| 27949|27915|2012-03-28 10:48:48|Matt Malone|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|Wild and others have posted about this. The two most useful links I think were posted by Wild: Input Electricity, cause temperature difference / heat flow: http://www.bkbelectronics.com/pdf%20files/TEC1-127120-50.pdf Prices: http://www.hebeiltd.com.cn/?p=z.peltier.pricelist The problem is, I do not see the table, for the same products, that lists not the electrical-driven specs, but the reverse, the thermal-driven specs. For instance: "Input temperature difference, causing: a) voltage at zero current (open circuit) VOC, b) current at zero voltage (short circuit current) ISC c) voltage and current at a given load R" I suggest R = (VOC/2) / (ISC/2) = VOC/ISC If the junction has a linear voltage-current characteristic, then, I would expect for load R, Vr = VOC/2, Ir = ISC/2 and the maximum output power would be P = VOC*ISC/4, and it would occur for that R I suggested. So, the experiment I was pondering was, throw $10 at this, buy the: TEC1-12710HTS High temp. Seal. 40x40x3.3mm 10.5A/15.4V 100W 127 couples US$ 10.19 - position it between the sides of two very thin, metal, flat-sided cooking oil cans, - use heat sink grease on both sides - use 8 super magnets (4 inside one can, 4 in the other) or four bolts to pull the cans together to maintain good mechanical contact - fill one with boiling water, the other with ice and then water - cover the boiling water side and wrap it in a towel to keep it warmer longer - put a thermometer in the boiling water side to measure its actual temperature - use a multimeter to measure VOC and ISC - then stick in R as calculated above and measure Vr, Ir *Calculate Pr = Vr*Ir *Comment on non-linearity *Comment on whether this is a good estimate of maximum output power *Calculate Power per investment dollar: Pr / ($10.19+) *Compare this to Solar, Wind *Don't forget the cost of implementation, getting heat to one side of the junction, getting heat away from the other in an actual boat application.... Remember, the actual implementation may dictate less-than-ideal thermal, heat-flow performance. Also remember that implementation with a solar system is finding a spot to stick it, bolt it down, and get a charge controller: In other words, buy a couple of modules, connect a few wires and do up a few screws. A $10 multimeter goes a long way to create and debug a solar or wind system. * But most importantly, get a sense of the (electrical) Reversing efficiency = Pr / 100 W, so that when you read electrically-driven specs you have an idea what its thermal-driven capability might be. I have a feeling it will not be good at all. That is what I think this discussion needs, some idea of the reversing efficiency and cost per Watt. Maybe someone can find something on the net, save me $10, and a lot of time doing a real experiment, and put Peltier junction thermo electric generators into perspective for us. I OFFER TO DO THE MATH / SCIENCE .... if you decide to do the experiment. An easier experiment might be to paint one side of the Peltier junction black and lay it black-side-up on an block of ice, in the sun. The sun provides a certain amount of energy per square meter (about 1,100 Watts). Using a non-contact temperature meter (Canadian Tire) measure the hot side temperature of the Peltier junction. Measure VOC and ISC.... etc. Calculate from there. Oh, BTW, the previous two experiments do not estimate the thermal reversing efficiency, that is, what Q heat flow in Watts flows from hot to cold when no current is being drawn (open circuit conduction leakage) and what Q heat flow in Watts flows from hot to cold when the Peltier Junction is short circuited, and is running steadily at ISC. The previous setup will not calculate that. I think the easiest way to do that would be to mount the Peltier junction onto a pot lid, with a big heat sink on the inside of the lid, some water on a slow boil on the kitchen stove, to maintain the temperature on the hot side. Then place a cylindrical column-shaped ice cube standing in a column-shaped tube on the cold side of the junction (with a piped drain in the column to get rid of melt water) and measure how fast the ice cube shortens in each of the open circuit and short circuit case. Ice has a known energy per unit volume, and, with a known cross-sectional area of the column, a known energy per unit height. Height drop per minute is easily changed to energy per second, which is Watts. Again, I offer to do the math / science if you do the experiment. After doing some elementary thermodynamics and comparing that to the electrically driven specifications, I think another poor reversing efficiency would be found. Thinking a little deeper into the thermodynamics... some people have a problem with the adage "energy is not created or destroyed, it just changes form", when its first form is heat energy, and its second form is heat energy. With a heat to heat conversion, it is all about temperature. We can clearly extract useful work from high temperature heat energy. Just keep in mind that, high temperature = the potential for useful work and you will not get confused. The open circuit thermal leakage over a temperature difference (conduction through the Peltier junction) is a pure loss of useful, surplus, high-temperature heat energy to a useless, low-temperature form of heat energy that cannot be used to do work. In this manner "useful" energy is lost, even though total energy is not "destroyed"... This represents an increase in entropy. When one mounts one of these Peltier units to a stove, one may think nothing is lost. What is lost is, that area of the stove covered by the Peltier junction does not put useful heat into your cabin. "So burn a little more wood?" That is just fine if you do not wrap your stove in junctions to try to get all the electricity you can. If you do that, you will have a roaring fire going, but all of the heat sinks on the outside of the Peltier junctions will feel only a little warm, and will be providing little useful heat to the cabin. I think when people see the actual reversing efficiencies, and the absolute value of the cost per output Watt, there will quickly be a change of interest in these Peltier junctions. Sure, I may throw $100 at it, but, of the $1000 or $2000 I have set aside for an energy system, I will put most of it in solar or wind. There is also room for innovation ! One may want a closed-loop cooling for the engine, not something that pumps lake or sea water through the engine. Instead of a skeg, one might want to buy one of the ready-assembled liquid heat transfer Peltier junction units ($$$), and circulate seawater in the cold side... The price per Watt is not better, but it is doing two things at once. One must be sure that the total heat leakage through the Peltier unit is more than your engine can generate, or your engine will overheat. Complex engineering there. I have seen some home-brew fire-box-mounted Peltier systems that at least look really cool for emergency use because they would accept a range of fuels. I see the most use for these as being when the Wind generator has come un-spun, and the Solar system is busted. Alterenately one might go to camp on a beach while the boat is anchored in a lagoon. Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27950|27915|2012-03-28 13:22:46|wild_explorer|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|The power generation ( Seebeck Effect ) is the conversion of temperature differences (dT) directly into electricity. Thermoelectric Modules in Seebeck mode are also called TEG. Matt, I think you are looking for the graph like this http://www.inbthermoelectric.com/Thermoelectric-Peltier-Modules/Power-Generators/inbC1-127.08HTS.html So far, I found that this manufacturer web-site http://www.tetech.com/ has complete set of information (specs, graphs, price). Including some calculators http://www.tetech.com/Peltier-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Module-Calculator/index.php and how to use graphs http://www.tetech.com/temodules/graphs/instructions.pdf The problems I have with TEG sold on eBay that there is almost zero technical information for such products - claims only. The links in this post explains what the difference between cooling and power generating modules is and how to use coolers as TEG. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/27948| 27951|27915|2012-03-28 13:42:15|Maxime Camirand|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|A while ago, I believe I mentioned an idea for a heating system that included a Peltier chip. I don't want to use the Peltier chip for recharging batteries; I merely want to use it to power a circulation pump. The idea is to have a wood/coal/oil stove heating a water tank (through an insulated firebox and a sleeved exhaust). As the water heats up, it generates electricity in the Peltier chip, which is mounted to take advantage of the temperature differential between the heated water in the closed circuit and the cold hull. The circulation pump would send the hot water through radiators in different parts of the boat (maybe heated floors). These pumps work with very low amps, because there's pumping slowly, and there's little head pressure. Maximum temp differential would be 100 degrees celsius, minus whatever the outside temperature happens to be. Useful in bigger boats that have various compartments behind closed doors or bulkheads. Regards, Max On 28 March 2012 13:22, wild_explorer wrote: > ** > > > The power generation ( Seebeck Effect ) is the conversion of temperature > differences (dT) directly into electricity. Thermoelectric Modules in > Seebeck mode are also called TEG. > > Matt, I think you are looking for the graph like this > > > http://www.inbthermoelectric.com/Thermoelectric-Peltier-Modules/Power-Generators/inbC1-127.08HTS.html > > So far, I found that this manufacturer web-site > > http://www.tetech.com/ > > has complete set of information (specs, graphs, price). Including some > calculators > > > http://www.tetech.com/Peltier-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Module-Calculator/index.php > > and how to use graphs > > http://www.tetech.com/temodules/graphs/instructions.pdf > > The problems I have with TEG sold on eBay that there is almost zero > technical information for such products - claims only. > > The links in this post explains what the difference between cooling and > power generating modules is and how to use coolers as TEG. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/27948 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27952|27915|2012-03-28 15:17:16|Matt Malone|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|OK, I think I have found the answer... please excuse the courier font, it is the only way to draw ascii art diagrams... http://www.tetech.com/publications/pubs/ICT97RJB.pdf describes using Peltier Cooler units as electrical generators. Start with: TEC1-12710HTS High temp. Seal. 40x40x3.3mm 10.5A/15.4V 100W 127 couples US$ 10.19 from http://www.hebeiltd.com.cn/?p=z.peltier.pricelist For Electrically Driven heat movement the model is: Tc Th Qc Qh Cold >--------=====> Hot / | | ^ electricity V, I, P Qh = Qc + P delta T = Th - Tc Using the Q specifications from the cooling specifications: \ http://www.bkbelectronics.com/pdf%20files/TEC1-127120-50.pdf Vmax = 15.4V Amax = 10A delta-Tmax (at Qc = 0) = 67C Th = 27C = 273K + 27 = 300K therefore Tc = 27C - 67C = -40C = 273K-40 = 233K ================================================================= Now change over to trying to make electricity from heat. The model for Heat Driven production of Electricity is: Tc Th Qc Qh Cold <--------=====< Hot / | | V electricity V, I, P Qh = Qc + P E = P / Qh delta T = Th - Tc Using the paper at http://www.tetech.com/publications/pubs/ICT97RJB.pdf to estimate the power output at the same deltaT, Th and Tc, that is not on the efficiency graphs, so, used the 67C difference, and: Tc = 250K, Th=317K, efficiency = 3.3% (Figure 3) V/Vmax = 0.13 (Figure 4) ==> V = 2.002 V I/Imax = 0.18 (Figure 5) ==> A = 1.8A P = V*I = 3.6W This makes the electrical reversal efficiency 3.6W Generator / 100W Cooler = 3.6% electrical reversal efficiency. At $10.19 that is $2.83 / Watt if fuel is free, and it is only 40mm x 40mm.... one recalls that a Canadian Tire 1.8W panel is about 14"x4" or 350mm x 100mm.... and a good solar cell of 2.5W is 170mm x 200mm, this amount of power in this amount of space is this is sounding interesting, really, maybe worth the $10 to try it out. At that efficiency however, one is dumping lot more heat through it than one is getting out: Qh = P / 3.3% = 109 Heat Watts input, 3.6 Electrical Watts output... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember, one might place the unit at a higher temperature, and temperature difference: Take Th = 200C = (273+200)K = 473K Tc = 27C = 300K efficiency = 5.6% (Figure 3) V/Vmax = 0.33 (Figure 4) ==> V = 5.082V I/Imax = 0.30 (Figure 5) ==> A = 3A P = V*I = 15.24W Now, running flat-out on the verge of melting the unit, the electrical reversal efficiency is 15.24%. At $10.19 that is $0.67 / Watt, if heating fuel is free. One would have to sink about 300W to seawater...That is not hard, but maintaining and not exceeding 200C (cell damage would occur) is hard, so that would be hard to implement.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Try: Th = 100C (on the side of a container of boiling water) = 373C Tc = 27C (tropical seawater through a hull) = 300C efficiency = 3.1% (Figure 3) V/Vmax = 0.14 (Figure 4) ==> V = 2.156V I/Imax = 0.16 (Figure 5) ==> A = 1.6A P = V*I = 3.45W, or $2.95 / Watt if fuel is free. Powering a laptop might require 19V and 3.2A or 20 cells, costing $203.60, and at least 8" x 10" boiling water contact area on the hull in the tropics, would require the same fuel as a 1hp gasoline engine (maybe less) to generate 69 useful Watts of electricity and the system would dump about 2000W / 3hp of heat into the oceanwater. Think of sticking 1.25 kettle elements into the ocean. I have a feeling more that 8" x 10" of hull area would be needed to get rid of the heat and keep the hull at only 27C. I think a 300W solar panel, and a house battery would be an easier way to power a laptop on a boat -- no fuel would be needed, not even "free" fuel like gathered scrap wood. Still, it is interesting. Thanks Wild, Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 17:22:43 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators The power generation ( Seebeck Effect ) is the conversion of temperature differences (dT) directly into electricity. Thermoelectric Modules in Seebeck mode are also called TEG. Matt, I think you are looking for the graph like this http://www.inbthermoelectric.com/Thermoelectric-Peltier-Modules/Power-Generators/inbC1-127.08HTS.html So far, I found that this manufacturer web-site http://www.tetech.com/ has complete set of information (specs, graphs, price). Including some calculators http://www.tetech.com/Peltier-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Module-Calculator/index.php and how to use graphs http://www.tetech.com/temodules/graphs/instructions.pdf The problems I have with TEG sold on eBay that there is almost zero technical information for such products - claims only. The links in this post explains what the difference between cooling and power generating modules is and how to use coolers as TEG. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/27948 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27953|27915|2012-03-28 15:31:46|wild_explorer|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|It looks like most cheap Peltier chips have limit of Max operating temperature about 125C. Next common temperature is about 200C. There are some with 300C and more, but very expensive. May be, it will be good idea to use Peltier as a TEG with low Max Temp (about 200C and lower). Power generation will be at Max specified temperature difference (about 67C-68C) anyway. It is need to keep module below Max parameters. So, no need to go to extreme. Water (and steel hull's) temperature is relatively the same year around. It gives us some starting point - the temperature of "cold side plate" for the module connected to the hull. I think it will be good idea to ask manufacturer what to expect from Peltier module used as a TEG. It is much easier to ask, than experiment with a module. Another US manufacturer (see contact information in Specs sheet) 12711-9M31-24CW Thermoelectric/Peltier Module (226.1 watts, 24.0 amps, 15.2 volts, dT 60°C, Tmax 200°C, price ~$50) http://www.shop.customthermoelectric.com/12711-9M31-24CW-Thermoelectric-Peltier-Module-12711-9M31-24CW.htm;jsessionid=CE30FB9A6CB69957F1D34E371D622BE0.qscstrfrnt05 Another US manufacturer (small units) http://products.cui.com/Srchresults_key.asp?keywords=peltier&PageNo=2&startnum=1&P=2&sort= One more US manufacturer http://lairdtech.thomasnet.com/category/thermal-management-solutions? Prices for last two (wide range of products), may be found here http://search.digikey.com/us/en/cat/fans-thermal-management/thermal-thermoelectric-peltier-modules/1180573?k=peltier --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > As the water heats up, it > generates electricity in the Peltier chip, which is mounted to take > advantage of the temperature differential between the heated water in the > closed circuit and the cold hull. > > Maximum temp differential would be 100 degrees celsius, minus > whatever the outside temperature happens to be. > | 27954|27915|2012-03-28 15:50:08|wild_explorer|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|Thanks Matt for doing all these calculations. Now we know why 2.5kW stove could make only about 25W electricity output (depends on module used). And why that module was so expensive - high temperature module. What would be your suggestions? - go for more wattage? - higher voltage (I see 24v and 33v units are pretty common) - less dT? - higher MaxT? - something else ;) ? I see some unit are coupled with DC/DC converters to keep needed output voltage. Units designed as TEG have low voltage output (about ~3-5V) and pretty expensive.| 27955|27915|2012-03-28 16:22:08|Matt Malone|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|I might make a 12 V-capable charging unit with 7 or 8 modules, 20-25W, and a diode: keep it fool-proof, portable, with a general firebox for basically anything flammable. I would design it to charge house batteries slowly, or running low power things like a car cell phone charger or NiMH battery charger. That would keep it as general as possible, and cost under $100 for the Peltier part. I would base it on a vented steam system to guarantee my modules stayed at 100C always, and never over heated, maybe based on an over-a-fire type kettle I can get for cheap. If I could find a not-noxious and non-flammable liquid that boils at a higher temperature like 180C, I might consider that and 200C cells to get more power out of each module, but that would also require a hotter fire. I might also make it so the steam condenses elsewhere, so it is a water still at the same time. One can always pour the water back into the kettle and keep re-using it. Again, for me, this does not make sense as anything more than an emergency system. The costs are just too high as compared to solar, even the cost of gathering up "free" scrap wood is still a cost. Heck even the special Canadian Tire had on 3 x 15 Watt panels a couple months ago was better, and there is no fuel expense at all, and at the time I said that was still a poor deal ($/Watt) for solar. I would not even waste the money putting a Peltier on the wood stove, or the exhaust or cooling water system in my boat engine. The apparatus needed to keep the cool side cool would just be too much bother for so little power. If one used the hull for the cool side, then the challenge is making the hot-side hot without an active circulation system or without a stove down at floor-boards level or below. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 19:49:54 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators Thanks Matt for doing all these calculations. Now we know why 2.5kW stove could make only about 25W electricity output (depends on module used). And why that module was so expensive - high temperature module. What would be your suggestions? - go for more wattage? - higher voltage (I see 24v and 33v units are pretty common) - less dT? - higher MaxT? - something else ;) ? I see some unit are coupled with DC/DC converters to keep needed output voltage. Units designed as TEG have low voltage output (about ~3-5V) and pretty expensive. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27956|27915|2012-03-28 16:51:03|brentswain38|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|25 watts continuous would provide all my electrical needs. Why the slow cooker? Why convert heat to electricity, then back to heat again? Cook on the stove, and eliminate the middle men, and complexity. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Thanks Matt for doing all these calculations. Now we know why 2.5kW stove could make only about 25W electricity output (depends on module used). And why that module was so expensive - high temperature module. > > What would be your suggestions? > > - go for more wattage? > - higher voltage (I see 24v and 33v units are pretty common) > - less dT? > - higher MaxT? > - something else ;) ? > > I see some unit are coupled with DC/DC converters to keep needed output voltage. > > Units designed as TEG have low voltage output (about ~3-5V) and pretty expensive. > | 27957|27915|2012-03-28 17:56:34|wild_explorer|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|Slow cooker was an idea for tropical climate WITHOUT using a stove as electricity generator... Before Matt did the calculations... With low efficiency of Peltier module in TEG mode (about 3%) of rated power as a cooler, it does not make much sense to use it as electricity generator. To get 25 Watt out of it, you will need 25/3*100=833W total power module (which is still not bad, ~$200 for 1kw Peltier assembly). Wind and solar is better alternative for tropical climate. Peltier could be used as cooling module more efficiently in this case (other cooling solutions could be more efficient than Peltier). It still could make a sense to generate electricity if heater is used anyway, wind is too strong for wind generator and very limited light (like behind Polar Circle). It would be interesting to see what rated power of Peltier is need to make 25W of electricity based on the air/hull temperature difference in tropical climate. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 25 watts continuous would provide all my electrical needs. > Why the slow cooker? Why convert heat to electricity, then back to heat again? Cook on the stove, and eliminate the middle men, and complexity. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Thanks Matt for doing all these calculations. Now we know why 2.5kW stove could make only about 25W electricity output (depends on module used). And why that module was so expensive - high temperature module. > > > > What would be your suggestions? > > > > - go for more wattage? > > - higher voltage (I see 24v and 33v units are pretty common) > > - less dT? > > - higher MaxT? > > - something else ;) ? > > > > I see some unit are coupled with DC/DC converters to keep needed output voltage. > > > > Units designed as TEG have low voltage output (about ~3-5V) and pretty expensive. > > > | 27958|27915|2012-03-28 21:38:50|wild_explorer|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|4 Peltier modules (4x400 watts) from below link should give you ~15V, 4.2A (~60W) when running at 100C hot side, 20C cold side (efficiency about 0.15 for current, 0.15 for voltage) . Enough to charge 40 AH battery. http://www.shop.customthermoelectric.com/19911-5M31-28CZ-Thermoelectric-Peltier-Module-19911-5M31-28CZ.htm Cost about $240. Now it is on back order (not in stock). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 25 watts continuous would provide all my electrical needs. > | 27959|27915|2012-03-28 22:20:10|wild_explorer|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|TEG modules up to 300C. Information is given for 150hC/50cC and 300hC/30cC. Just connect units to get more voltage/amperage. Have specs sheets. Easy to see what power you can get on given temperature difference. http://customthermoelectric.com/powergen.html| 27960|27960|2012-03-29 14:22:45|zulutrading|Diesel engines|Hey, I am doing a cleanup and trying to get rid of some things. I have 2 diesel engines that might be suitable for a Brent boat. Paul 250-336-2271 (Comox)| 27961|27915|2012-03-30 15:50:33|Paul Wilson|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|If you think you can build a battery charger out of a thermoelectric cooler, Defender has a Dometic thermoelectric cooler on sale for $20 right now. http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|406|27359|1494761&id=1694877 Cheers, Paul| 27962|27915|2012-03-30 15:56:26|Paul Wilson|Re: LED Lights|There are many of good led circuits on the net but www.instructables.com has many LED projects and is a good place to start. http://www.instructables.com/tag/type-id/category-technology/channel-leds/ Cheers, Paul| 27963|27915|2012-03-30 19:10:51|wild_explorer|Re: LED Lights|High power LED's with specs & prices (USA distributor) http://leading-leds.com/power.html| 27964|27964|2012-03-30 19:26:56|GP|Metal theft|Seems metal theft is in high gear in the UK. Story on CBC that lead is being stolen from church roofs; aluminum from everything including wheel chair ramps and just generally anything metal is suddenly a target. So... just wondering about whether boats may be next.. lead keels, metal hulls, aluminum masts etc... So far, except for one instance well known on this site just wondering if there is need to be a little less complacent about our metal boats. Gary| 27965|27964|2012-03-31 00:08:20|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: Metal theft|Same here. A $ 500,000 bronze statue has recently been stolen from a public park and cut up to be sold as scrap metal for $ 5,000. Two not very bright people have died trying to steal copper from a live electric power transformer station. Etc. Life is getting harder. jobs are nonexistent. Bruno On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 1:26 AM, GP wrote: > ** > > > Seems metal theft is in high gear in the UK. Story on CBC that lead is > being stolen from church roofs; aluminum from everything including wheel > chair ramps and just generally anything metal is suddenly a target. So... > just wondering about whether boats may be next.. lead keels, metal hulls, > aluminum masts etc... So far, except for one instance well known on this > site just wondering if there is need to be a little less complacent about > our metal boats. > > Gary > > > -- Bruno Ogorelec**** Ivana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra**** 10020 Zagreb**** **** Tel. +385 1 22 22 575**** Mobile: +385 98 224 230 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27966|3366|2012-03-31 14:50:15|Mark Hamill|Re: Propane|Matt: Somebody referenced this under stoves and it is about how Arne Kverneland in the Junkrig group warms up his boat.. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/files/Arne%20Kverneland%27s%20files/3%2C%20%20Letters%20etc./ (Not sure if this link will work but go to files and then Arne Kverneland files look Under "Letters etc." Under "20081214 Early winter letter to the Yahoo JR group.pdf ". ) I saved a copy of the PDF if all else fails. He has a Taylor kerosene heater and just out of interest I emailed them in England and they sent the following prices. Too expensive I think. The heater looks similar to the Force 10 kerosene heater. http://www.taylorsheatersandcookers.co.uk/ MarkH "Dear Mark Ideal K Cooker: 575 GBP ($919.568 CAD) These burners are Patra style. I do not recommend changing nipples or running the stove on any fuel other then kerosene (paraffin.) Diesel clogs all burners. Heater 079D: from 975 GBP ($1,559.27 CAD) re-conditioned including deck flange, chimney cowl, chimney pipes and full new fitting kit. Both prices above exclude carriage of approximately: 75 GBP per package. Best wishes, John" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27967|3366|2012-03-31 15:41:07|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: fast bilge keels....|http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/32432d1244921392-why-arent-bilge-keels-more-popular-haka145e.jpg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27968|3366|2012-03-31 15:47:24|Brian Stannard|Re: fast bilge keels....|Or here http://www.rm-yachts.com/contenu/,home,1 On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > ** > > > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/32432d1244921392-why-arent-bilge-keels-more-popular-haka145e.jpg > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27969|27964|2012-03-31 20:03:29|brentswain38|Re: Metal theft|Rowland had his boat , almost ready for sandblasting, stolen. The thief was given a light slap on the wrist , by the courts. My aluminium dinghy was stolen by scrap thieves. Wish I had caught them in the act. When I built my current boat in Nanaimo, I welded the corners of a stack of plates together , and zip cut each sheet free when I wanted one. It wouldn't be easy to lift the entire stack over the fence , or cut them free without being noticed. I like to weld the bulwark pipes and top lifelines into full lengths quickly, for the same reasons. When I built my last boat , I bought an extra sheet of 1/4 plate and welded it into a vault , to keep my welder and tools in. It would have been extremely difficult to get that over the fence , unnoticed. Looks like a lot of copper thieves are being electrocuted. When they get hooked on drugs, all logic and personal values go out the window. Only getting more dope counts. Time we made them legal prescription drugs, only enough to eliminate the desperation. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Seems metal theft is in high gear in the UK. Story on CBC that lead is being stolen from church roofs; aluminum from everything including wheel chair ramps and just generally anything metal is suddenly a target. So... just wondering about whether boats may be next.. lead keels, metal hulls, aluminum masts etc... So far, except for one instance well known on this site just wondering if there is need to be a little less complacent about our metal boats. > > Gary > | 27970|3366|2012-03-31 20:13:09|brentswain38|Re: fast bilge keels....|Once you get an anchor rode between those keels hooked over the end of the bulbs , in a wind, on a lee shore, there is no way you can get them off easily. You are then in deep trouble. It is almost impossible to get enough strength in such high aspect keels, with such a short connection to the hull, to survive a collision with a rock , without the trailing edges of the keel being driven up into the hull. I tried warning people about this on Boat design.net but was banned as a result. That site is dominated and controlled by a collection of Theory bound half wits, who feel threatened by anyone with actual experience, rather that the book worm theorists, who have almost zero real life experience in what they are talking about ,or dealing with. They are an extremely unreliable source of information on anything dealing with boat design. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard wrote: > > Or here http://www.rm-yachts.com/contenu/,home,1 > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/32432d1244921392-why-arent-bilge-keels-more-popular-haka145e.jpg > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > -- > Cheers > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27971|3366|2012-03-31 20:38:41|Brian Stannard|Re: fast bilge keels....|For performance there is a possible penalty as Brent said. Just as there is a penalty with a single keel - the deeper and narrower the foil the more issues if you hit something hard. On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 5:13 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > Once you get an anchor rode between those keels hooked over the end of the > bulbs , in a wind, on a lee shore, there is no way you can get them off > easily. You are then in deep trouble. > It is almost impossible to get enough strength in such high aspect keels, > with such a short connection to the hull, to survive a collision with a > rock , without the trailing edges of the keel being driven up into the hull. > I tried warning people about this on Boat design.net but was banned as a > result. That site is dominated and controlled by a collection of Theory > bound half wits, who feel threatened by anyone with actual experience, > rather that the book worm theorists, who have almost zero real life > experience in what they are talking about ,or dealing with. They are an > extremely unreliable source of information on anything dealing with boat > design. . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard > wrote: > > > > Or here http://www.rm-yachts.com/contenu/,home,1 > > > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/32432d1244921392-why-arent-bilge-keels-more-popular-haka145e.jpg > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Cheers > > Brian > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27972|27964|2012-04-02 10:47:40|Matt Malone|Re: Metal theft|"When they get hooked on drugs, all logic and personal values go out the window. Only getting more dope counts. Time we made them legal prescription drugs, only enough to eliminate the desperation. " These are the most dangerous types for sure, only more dangerous as oxycontin is phased out and oxyneo starts. It bothers me that someone could take an entire boat and get a slap on the wrist. It should be up there with stealing a dwelling, a horse, or a car -- serious. It makes those cattle fence energizers at Princess Auto look interesting but probably only legal to erect it on a livestock fence. I wonder how much a calf and a bit of fence would cost ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 00:03:27 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal theft Rowland had his boat , almost ready for sandblasting, stolen. The thief was given a light slap on the wrist , by the courts. My aluminium dinghy was stolen by scrap thieves. Wish I had caught them in the act. When I built my current boat in Nanaimo, I welded the corners of a stack of plates together , and zip cut each sheet free when I wanted one. It wouldn't be easy to lift the entire stack over the fence , or cut them free without being noticed. I like to weld the bulwark pipes and top lifelines into full lengths quickly, for the same reasons. When I built my last boat , I bought an extra sheet of 1/4 plate and welded it into a vault , to keep my welder and tools in. It would have been extremely difficult to get that over the fence , unnoticed. Looks like a lot of copper thieves are being electrocuted. When they get hooked on drugs, all logic and personal values go out the window. Only getting more dope counts. Time we made them legal prescription drugs, only enough to eliminate the desperation. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Seems metal theft is in high gear in the UK. Story on CBC that lead is being stolen from church roofs; aluminum from everything including wheel chair ramps and just generally anything metal is suddenly a target. So... just wondering about whether boats may be next.. lead keels, metal hulls, aluminum masts etc... So far, except for one instance well known on this site just wondering if there is need to be a little less complacent about our metal boats. > > Gary > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27973|27915|2012-04-02 14:44:41|ryancorkrey@gmail.com|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|Really starting to look into these and realizing that their is a possibility of firing up your wood stove as a means to provide enough electricity to power an electric motor. Like a steam engine, only nothing at all like it. there are many producers of the TEG and the usable market is legging behind with application, meaning that with a little fabricating and a lot of reading their is a potential to bring back wood burning as a means to acquire energy while heating. being as renewable of a fuel as possible, other than the sail in sailboat i am experimenting with building a wood stove and covering the surface with the TEG. looking at the specification for individual TEG and taking 70% of total efficiency for the TEG's used in a bank that has a total surface area of around 1squar meter, the potential exceeds 5kw. some smaller wattage options could be something like this http://www.marlow.com/products/power-generators/evergen-power-strap.html producing around 100 watts @ 12v, using it around the flue of a wood stove On , Paul Wilson wrote: > If you think you can build a battery charger out of a thermoelectric > cooler, Defender has a Dometic thermoelectric cooler on sale for $20 > right now. > http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|406|27359|1494761&id=1694877 > Cheers, Paul > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27974|3366|2012-04-02 15:03:29|brentswain38|Re: fast bilge keels....|In a cruising boat, there is more to performance than just speed, such as how she performs in surviving a hull speed collision with a rock. That is a very critical aspect of performance in a cruising yacht, not worth sacrificing, for a half knot of extra speed. If those high aspect ratio keels have twice the draft of mine, then they have twice the leverage on the bases where they join the hull. If that base is 1/3rd the length , then it has one third the ability to resist getting punched up thru the hull. All told, they have less than 1/5th the ability to survive such a collision, compared to my keels, before you even begin to include the ability to add huge stiffness at their trailing edges, which on my boats, is under the wheelhouse floor , where space taken up by reinforcing is not an issue. I doubt very much if there is much space at all for much reinforcing under the floors of those boats. I don't expect the myopic half wits of boatdesign.net to be capable of grasping this concept. They have proven in the past, time and time again, such logic to be well beyond their capability. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard wrote: > > For performance there is a possible penalty as Brent said. Just as there is > a penalty with a single keel - the deeper and narrower the foil the more > issues if you hit something hard. > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 5:13 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Once you get an anchor rode between those keels hooked over the end of the > > bulbs , in a wind, on a lee shore, there is no way you can get them off > > easily. You are then in deep trouble. > > It is almost impossible to get enough strength in such high aspect keels, > > with such a short connection to the hull, to survive a collision with a > > rock , without the trailing edges of the keel being driven up into the hull. > > I tried warning people about this on Boat design.net but was banned as a > > result. That site is dominated and controlled by a collection of Theory > > bound half wits, who feel threatened by anyone with actual experience, > > rather that the book worm theorists, who have almost zero real life > > experience in what they are talking about ,or dealing with. They are an > > extremely unreliable source of information on anything dealing with boat > > design. . > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard > > wrote: > > > > > > Or here http://www.rm-yachts.com/contenu/,home,1 > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/32432d1244921392-why-arent-bilge-keels-more-popular-haka145e.jpg > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Cheers > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Cheers > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27975|27915|2012-04-02 15:08:08|brentswain38|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|I think it would take many days of stove running to get enough charge in a battery to go only a few miles. However, no harm in adding it to wind power and solar power, if the stove is running anyway. A large aluminium sheet , sandwiched outside the cells ,would greatly help in dissipating the heat, and increasing the efficiency , especially if the sheet was attached to the hull to act as a heat sink. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryancorkrey@... wrote: > > Really starting to look into these and realizing that their is a > possibility of firing up your wood stove as a means to provide enough > electricity to power an electric motor. Like a steam engine, only nothing > at all like it. > > there are many producers of the TEG and the usable market is legging behind > with application, meaning that with a little fabricating and a lot of > reading their is a potential to bring back wood burning as a means to > acquire energy while heating. being as renewable of a fuel as possible, > other than the sail in sailboat > > i am experimenting with building a wood stove and covering the surface with > the TEG. looking at the specification for individual TEG and taking 70% of > total efficiency for the TEG's used in a bank that has a total surface area > of around 1squar meter, the potential exceeds 5kw. > > some smaller wattage options could be something like this > > http://www.marlow.com/products/power-generators/evergen-power-strap.html > > producing around 100 watts @ 12v, using it around the flue of a wood stove > > On , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you think you can build a battery charger out of a thermoelectric > > > cooler, Defender has a Dometic thermoelectric cooler on sale for $20 > > > right now. > > > > > http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|406|27359|1494761&id=1694877 > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27976|3366|2012-04-02 15:54:30|Matt Malone|Re: fast bilge keels....|I expect that coming ashore onto rocks or reefs at greater than hulls speed is possibility if the boat takes on any fraction of the speed of a wave as it is pushed onto the rocks. Trimming the thickness, and length of the keel by a factor of 2 and making the keel twice as long, would increase stresses by a factor of 4, all other things being equal. I looked at this photo: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/32432d1244921392-why-arent-bilge-keels-more-popular-haka145e.jpg and thought about the stresses on the rudder post... then I noticed it was actually a very thin skeg, and thinner rudder. I hope that came to rest in a very calm bay and is refloated in the same manner. A little wave action on the beam would create a lot of stress on that skeg. I like that Brent's boats sit only on the keels (all other things being equal). What Brent says about the anchor rode -- I imagine it can get wrapped more than once. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:03:27 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fast bilge keels.... In a cruising boat, there is more to performance than just speed, such as how she performs in surviving a hull speed collision with a rock. That is a very critical aspect of performance in a cruising yacht, not worth sacrificing, for a half knot of extra speed. If those high aspect ratio keels have twice the draft of mine, then they have twice the leverage on the bases where they join the hull. If that base is 1/3rd the length , then it has one third the ability to resist getting punched up thru the hull. All told, they have less than 1/5th the ability to survive such a collision, compared to my keels, before you even begin to include the ability to add huge stiffness at their trailing edges, which on my boats, is under the wheelhouse floor , where space taken up by reinforcing is not an issue. I doubt very much if there is much space at all for much reinforcing under the floors of those boats. I don't expect the myopic half wits of boatdesign.net to be capable of grasping this concept. They have proven in the past, time and time again, such logic to be well beyond their capability. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard wrote: > > For performance there is a possible penalty as Brent said. Just as there is > a penalty with a single keel - the deeper and narrower the foil the more > issues if you hit something hard. > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 5:13 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Once you get an anchor rode between those keels hooked over the end of the > > bulbs , in a wind, on a lee shore, there is no way you can get them off > > easily. You are then in deep trouble. > > It is almost impossible to get enough strength in such high aspect keels, > > with such a short connection to the hull, to survive a collision with a > > rock , without the trailing edges of the keel being driven up into the hull. > > I tried warning people about this on Boat design.net but was banned as a > > result. That site is dominated and controlled by a collection of Theory > > bound half wits, who feel threatened by anyone with actual experience, > > rather that the book worm theorists, who have almost zero real life > > experience in what they are talking about ,or dealing with. They are an > > extremely unreliable source of information on anything dealing with boat > > design. . > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard > > wrote: > > > > > > Or here http://www.rm-yachts.com/contenu/,home,1 > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/32432d1244921392-why-arent-bilge-keels-more-popular-haka145e.jpg > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Cheers > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Cheers > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27977|27915|2012-04-02 16:02:59|wild_explorer|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryancorkrey@... wrote: > > i am experimenting with building a wood stove and covering the surface with > the TEG. looking at the specification for individual TEG and taking 70% of > total efficiency for the TEG's used in a bank that has a total surface area > of around 1squar meter, the potential exceeds 5kw. > Experimenting is good, but... If set up for 60W cost about $250-350, making 5kW generator using TEGs will be very expensive. With such low TEG efficiency (1-3%) extracting electricity from heat, it is better to use wood gas for heating and to run regular engine on it. To get 5kW of power from TEGs you will need 300-500kW wood stove. > some smaller wattage options could be something like this > > http://www.marlow.com/products/power-generators/evergen-power-strap.html > > producing around 100 watts @ 12v, using it around the flue of a wood stove > Again, company claims power only 10's of watts, not 100's. And no price. Notice the temperature difference for 12V output. (-40C one side and +120C another side)| 27978|27915|2012-04-02 16:47:12|Barney Treadway|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|Especially given a 20 degree ambient temp. 2W is not a lot. Be fun if very expensive experiment. www.ecomshare.com wild_explorer wrote: >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryancorkrey@... wrote: >> >> i am experimenting with building a wood stove and covering the surface with >> the TEG. looking at the specification for individual TEG and taking 70% of >> total efficiency for the TEG's used in a bank that has a total surface area >> of around 1squar meter, the potential exceeds 5kw. >> > >Experimenting is good, but... If set up for 60W cost about $250-350, making 5kW generator using TEGs will be very expensive. With such low TEG efficiency (1-3%) extracting electricity from heat, it is better to use wood gas for heating and to run regular engine on it. To get 5kW of power from TEGs you will need 300-500kW wood stove. > > >> some smaller wattage options could be something like this >> >> http://www.marlow.com/products/power-generators/evergen-power-strap.html >> >> producing around 100 watts @ 12v, using it around the flue of a wood stove >> > >Again, company claims power only 10's of watts, not 100's. And no price. Notice the temperature difference for 12V output. (-40C one side and +120C another side) > > | 27979|3366|2012-04-02 16:53:30|wild_explorer|Re: fast bilge keels....|From sailboat's stability point of view... If I remember correctly, 2 identical hulls with the same vertical center of gravity from waterline, but different keels will have different stability. Hull with narrow/short deep keel (high aspect) will have LESS stability. Sounds strange, but true (that was one of my questions to naval architect/engineer). Hull without keel would have even better stability, but hard to get needed vertical center of gravity. Tall ships do not have deep keels - still sail ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > If those high aspect ratio keels have twice the draft of mine, then they have twice the leverage on the bases where they join the hull. | 27980|27915|2012-04-03 20:26:57|Ryan Corkrey|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|Delta Degree depends on manufacturer,(20 degrees what?) besides never said ambient air, will be using water cooled plates that double as a hydrostatic heater. economy of scale for price 10+, never said it was cheap. just provides Independence and heat their about 10% efficient per Wikipedia using the specification of the largest capacity teg you see, i used 14+AMP rectangular TEG as my calculations. calculate the number of TEG needed for a surface area of 1 square meter. i have 2 TEG and have been playing with it on my little cod(3-8KW) stove, even with the fanned heat sinks out of an analog stereo i am excited with about 60-70% of 5-10% efficiency out of a renewable source. i made an error when posting, using a 5KW stove could = 500W, real world about 70% of that if everything is configured correctly. i came up with that goofy math by not paying attention to available heat source, just surface area. sorry It would be expensive to power a boat as a direct exchange, not to mention one would need a <100KW stove, but by scale not so much when making 500w that could be stored. degrees On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Barney Treadway wrote: > ** > > > Especially given a 20 degree ambient temp. 2W is not a lot. Be fun if very > expensive experiment. > > www.ecomshare.com > > > wild_explorer wrote: > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryancorkrey@... wrote: > >> > >> i am experimenting with building a wood stove and covering the surface > with > >> the TEG. looking at the specification for individual TEG and taking 70% > of > >> total efficiency for the TEG's used in a bank that has a total surface > area > >> of around 1squar meter, the potential exceeds 5kw. > >> > > > >Experimenting is good, but... If set up for 60W cost about $250-350, > making 5kW generator using TEGs will be very expensive. With such low TEG > efficiency (1-3%) extracting electricity from heat, it is better to use > wood gas for heating and to run regular engine on it. To get 5kW of power > from TEGs you will need 300-500kW wood stove. > > > > > >> some smaller wattage options could be something like this > >> > >> > http://www.marlow.com/products/power-generators/evergen-power-strap.html > >> > >> producing around 100 watts @ 12v, using it around the flue of a wood > stove > >> > > > >Again, company claims power only 10's of watts, not 100's. And no price. > Notice the temperature difference for 12V output. (-40C one side and +120C > another side) > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27981|3366|2012-04-03 20:31:55|brentswain38|Re: fast bilge keels....|The roll frequency and thus the comfort level, will no doubt be greatly enhanced, by having both the lateral resistance and ballast divided between two keels. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > From sailboat's stability point of view... > > If I remember correctly, 2 identical hulls with the same vertical center of gravity from waterline, but different keels will have different stability. Hull with narrow/short deep keel (high aspect) will have LESS stability. Sounds strange, but true (that was one of my questions to naval architect/engineer). Hull without keel would have even better stability, but hard to get needed vertical center of gravity. > > Tall ships do not have deep keels - still sail ;)) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > If those high aspect ratteral resistance and balast weight , divided between tow keels.io keels have twice the draft of mine, then they have twice the leverage on the bases where they join the hull. > | 27982|27915|2012-04-03 23:05:11|wild_explorer|Re: Peltier Junction Thermo-Electric Generators|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ryan Corkrey wrote: > > > economy of scale for price 10+, never said it was cheap. just provides > Independence and heat > > their about 10% efficient per Wikipedia > > I was fooled by information from eBay too at the beginning. Then I started to look deeper, especially after Matt's calculation. Hey, it is just a discussion, we all exited first ;) Wikipedia probably gives 10% efficiency for units designed as TEGs, not cooling modules in TEG mode. Real TEGs are more expensive (technological difference). Most eBay "TEGs" are just cooling modules which could be used in TEG mode (deliberate misinformation). There are some engineering problems and challenges to make effective electrical generator from TEG modules and keep final assembly in specs (Tmax,dT, insulation, dMax). > using the specification of the largest capacity teg you see, i used 14+AMP > rectangular TEG as my calculations. calculate the number of TEG needed for > a surface area of 1 square meter. Could you give again the model and a link to OFFICIAL (manufacturer's) specs for the TEG module you use? Practically, putting TEG modules side-by-side to cover the heat source's area may be not a good idea. It is better to space it, and fill the space with VERY good thermal insulation - it will give more surface for heat sink, and assure no heat is sipping through the gaps as well as from the sides. Efficient cooling is another problem - it is easy to exceed allowable Tmax on chip's surface. Keep us updated on your experiment's progress.| 27983|27983|2012-04-04 12:48:11|chris123|Swain designs|Greets: Was wondering where I can get study plans or more information on the Swain 30 and 36. Also where is Brents book available on building stuff yourself. Best and kind regards -- /ch| 27984|27983|2012-04-04 19:46:56|brentswain38|Re: Swain designs|You can order my book from 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada, V0R2V0. Just send $20 , plus $5 for Canadian postage, $8 for US postage, or $15 for overseas airmail postage. Plans for the 26footer are $200 , for the 31- $300, for the 36-$350 and for the 40-$500. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Greets: > > Was wondering where I can get study plans or more information on the > Swain 30 and 36. Also where is Brents book available on building stuff > yourself. > > Best and kind regards > > > -- > /ch > | 27985|27983|2012-04-05 00:12:48|chris123|Re: Swain designs|Cool. The book is going to be an interesting read. Are there basic study plans available for the 31 and 36? As these would be interesting to review Best regards /ch On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:46 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > You can order my book from 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada, V0R2V0. > Just send $20 , plus $5 for Canadian postage, $8 for US postage, or $15 > for overseas airmail postage. Plans for the 26footer are $200 , for the 31- > $300, for the 36-$350 and for the 40-$500. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > wrote: > > > > Greets: > > > > Was wondering where I can get study plans or more information on the > > Swain 30 and 36. Also where is Brents book available on building stuff > > yourself. > > > > Best and kind regards > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27986|27983|2012-04-05 22:38:36|brentswain38|Re: Swain designs|I don't have study plans , but the details are in my book. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Cool. The book is going to be an interesting read. Are there basic study > plans available for the 31 and 36? As these would be interesting to review > > Best regards > > /ch > > > On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:46 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > You can order my book from 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada, V0R2V0. > > Just send $20 , plus $5 for Canadian postage, $8 for US postage, or $15 > > for overseas airmail postage. Plans for the 26footer are $200 , for the 31- > > $300, for the 36-$350 and for the 40-$500. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > > wrote: > > > > > > Greets: > > > > > > Was wondering where I can get study plans or more information on the > > > Swain 30 and 36. Also where is Brents book available on building stuff > > > yourself. > > > > > > Best and kind regards > > > > > > > > > -- > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27987|27983|2012-04-06 09:16:48|James Pronk|Re: Swain designs|For me buying, Brent's book was far more insightful and helpful then any other designers study plans. Just the wealth of information is far more value then the $25 Brent is charging for the book. James  --- On Thu, 4/5/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain designs To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, April 5, 2012, 10:38 PM   I don't have study plans , but the details are in my book. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Cool. The book is going to be an interesting read. Are there basic study > plans available for the 31 and 36? As these would be interesting to review > > Best regards > > /ch > > > On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:46 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > You can order my book from 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada, V0R2V0. > > Just send $20 , plus $5 for Canadian postage, $8 for US postage, or $15 > > for overseas airmail postage. Plans for the 26footer are $200 , for the 31- > > $300, for the 36-$350 and for the 40-$500. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > > wrote: > > > > > > Greets: > > > > > > Was wondering where I can get study plans or more information on the > > > Swain 30 and 36. Also where is Brents book available on building stuff > > > yourself. > > > > > > Best and kind regards > > > > > > > > > -- > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27988|27983|2012-04-07 05:35:05|Kim|Re: Swain designs|Chris ... James is right: Brent's book is a steal at the price he's asking. And definitely also get Alex's excellent DVD video set (http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats/), which makes the whole origami construction method an easy to understand process. Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > For me buying, Brent's book was far more insightful and helpful then any other designers study plans. Just the wealth of information is far more value then the $25 Brent is charging for the book. > James > --- On Thu, 4/5/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > I don't have study plans , but the details are in my book. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Greets: > > Was wondering where I can get study plans or more information on the > Swain 30 and 36. Also where is Brents book available on building stuff > yourself. > > Best and kind regards > > -- > /ch ______________________________________________________________ | 27989|3366|2012-04-07 16:06:47|brentswain38|Re: fast bilge keels....|With no keel in front of the skeg , it has to be as strong as the keels to take an impact with a rock . I once had a rock come between the keels and smack the skeg, at hull speed. No damage done. it would wipe out the rudder shown. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/32432d1244921392-why-arent-bilge-keels-more-popular-haka145e.jpg > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 27990|27990|2012-04-07 17:07:06|Mark Hamill|Chinese Outboard Diesels|FYI--Scott at the Junk Rig site wrote this: When I went to China in 2005, I saw widespread use of small (very noisy) diesel engines to carry great loads. Since then I have been thinking of getting an air cooled diesel outboard and wondering if anyone has any knowledge or experience of the models below. I read Brian Clifford's book 'Golden Lotus'. It had an air-cooled lister inboard it was for-ever giving trouble. I am not sure if those engines have been better devoloped since then? http://www.diytrade.com/china/pd/9945686/Diesel_outboard_motor.html http://tayakomc.en.china.cn/selling-leads/detail,1001667016,Japan-Outboard-Engine-11HP-Electric-Start.html http://chelili.en.made-in-china.com/offer/ZqExdSojEDUf/Sell-Diesel-Outboard-Engine.html https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=diesel+outboard+motor&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-nz:IE-SearchBox&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=_EuAT6qJJsqiiAe25-S3BA&ved=0CHgQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=719 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27991|27990|2012-04-07 18:49:22|Paul Wilson|Re: Chinese Outboard Diesels|I have spent quite a bit of time in SE Asia. I love the thump, thump of the big single cylinder diesels you can get there. They are in widespread use everywhere and are crude and heavy but reliable. You won't get as many hours out of them as a more modern design. The material quality just isn't there. I have heard maybe 1500 hrs versus at least 5000 to 7000 hrs on a more modern diesel. If you need parts, it will be no problem if you are in SE Asia but what do you do in the rest of the world? The outboard legs are new to me and look very crude. I have no knowledge of them since most of the diesels I have seen on boats are either inboards or direct drive long tails like in Thailand. It is hard to get my mind around a 6 hp outboard weighing 155 kg. That is just crazy. I would stick to a good used conventional diesel inboard or outboard rather than go with a Chinese diesel. Unless I was in SE Asia, of course, and then I would have a longtail :). How is this for a thump, thump (2:50 mark) and dig the leg rowers.....Burma is absolutely awesome....my favorite place :). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul08GUGuLTc&feature=related The longtails there are different than Thailand. They have a fixed inboard and use a universal joint to pivoting shaft at the transom. There is a bent pipe located in the outflow from the prop for water cooling. A piece of hose connects it to the diesel and then it discharges overboard. Very simple and works great. I think the diesels driving these boats are about 25 hp. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftDcUbBbIK0&feature=relmfu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ySXU2AHL_0 Cheers, Paul On 8/04/2012 9:07 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > FYI--Scott at the Junk Rig site wrote this: > > When I went to China in 2005, I saw widespread use of small (very > noisy) diesel engines to carry great loads. Since then I have been > thinking of getting an air cooled diesel outboard and wondering if > anyone has any knowledge or experience of the models below. I read > Brian Clifford's book 'Golden Lotus'. It had an air-cooled lister > inboard it was for-ever giving trouble. I am not sure if those engines > have been better devoloped since then? > > > http://www.diytrade.com/china/pd/9945686/Diesel_outboard_motor.html > > http://tayakomc.en.china.cn/selling-leads/detail,1001667016,Japan-Outboard-Engine-11HP-Electric-Start.html > > http://chelili.en.made-in-china.com/offer/ZqExdSojEDUf/Sell-Diesel-Outboard-Engine.html > > https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=diesel+outboard+motor&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-nz:IE-SearchBox&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=_EuAT6qJJsqiiAe25-S3BA&ved=0CHgQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=719 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 27992|27983|2012-04-07 19:30:38|chris123|Re: Swain designs|Its on it way...looking forward to an interesting read. Then make the decision on the DVD's. First I want to read the book however. /ch On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 5:34 AM, Kim wrote: > ** > > > > Chris ... > > James is right: Brent's book is a steal at the price he's asking. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 27993|27990|2012-04-07 19:57:00|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Chinese Outboard Diesels|Did You consider the Yanmar D27 and/or D36 outboards? Not aircooled, but a reliable diesel outboard device, reputed to be bullet proof. Some are in use with the German Bundeswehr, where the bridgelayer platoons round my place use it successfully with their tugging prams. Didn't use such an outboard myself, but a number of Yanmars as powersource for heavily tortured micro-dredgers and small loaders, so these Yanmars aren't just any SE-Asia engines. >> then I have been >> thinking of getting an air cooled diesel outboard and wondering if >> anyone has any knowledge or experience of the models below. | 27994|27990|2012-04-07 20:30:32|M.J. Malone|Re: Chinese Outboard Diesels|Yanmar D27. $15,000. How many china diesels is that? It might be cheaper to carry a spare. Matt Giuseppe Bergman wrote: Did You consider the Yanmar D27 and/or D36 outboards? Not aircooled, but a reliable diesel outboard device, reputed to be bullet proof. Some are in use with the German Bundeswehr, where the bridgelayer platoons round my place use it successfully with their tugging prams. Didn't use such an outboard myself, but a number of Yanmars as powersource for heavily tortured micro-dredgers and small loaders, so these Yanmars aren't just any SE-Asia engines. >> then I have been >> thinking of getting an air cooled diesel outboard and wondering if >> anyone has any knowledge or experience of the models below. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27995|27983|2012-04-07 22:33:19|wild_explorer|Re: Swain designs|Just be sure you read the book VERY SLOW. You have to pay attention to EVERY sentence. It is very important! Or.. You will miss a LOT. I read it several times, than asked Brent, and found the same answer he gave me over e-mail, in his book reading it again. This book is like military manual - just important information (no water). I would recommend Alex DVD as well - very informative. P.S. Before asking your next question, read ALL my post. More likely you will find answer on your questions in related threads. ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Its on it way...looking forward to an interesting read. Then make the > decision on the DVD's. First I want to read the book however. > | 27996|27990|2012-04-08 06:51:27|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Chinese Outboard Diesels|Used Yanmar Diesels form the German Bundeswehr were auctioned in mixed 10-piece-lots (heavily used, working/not working condition, while all complete) several times during the last 12 years, with prices around 2-4 k � each (still ca. 30.000,- � for a sample of ten outboards which You were not allowed to really check before bidding on the lot ...), what led to reseller-prices of around 5 to 8 k � each for revised Bundeswehr-ones on the German market; (revised means new shears, new propellers, new plastics if needed and so on). But You had to be quick to gain one, for they are legendary economic engines You simply forgot where to refill the diesel till next time necessary. (I found them way to heavy with +/-100 kg for 27 hp) Still an amount of money, while You wouldn't have to carry several more as spares clamped to Your pushpit with one of these. No Yanmars under offer these days though: www.vebeg.de. (no English version available I'm afraid) Am 08.04.2012 um 02:30 schrieb M.J. Malone: > Yanmar D27. $15,000. How many china diesels is that? It might be cheaper to carry a spare. > > Matt > > Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > Did You consider the Yanmar D27 and/or D36 outboards? > > Not aircooled, but a reliable diesel outboard device, reputed to be bullet proof. > > Some are in use with the German Bundeswehr, where the bridgelayer platoons round my place use it successfully with their tugging prams. > > Didn't use such an outboard myself, but a number of Yanmars as powersource for heavily tortured micro-dredgers and small loaders, so these Yanmars aren't just any SE-Asia engines. > > >> then I have been > >> thinking of getting an air cooled diesel outboard and wondering if > >> anyone has any knowledge or experience of the models below. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27997|27983|2012-04-08 12:37:25|Mark Hamill|Re: Swain designs|Wild's sugggestion to read carefully is quite accurate. Everytime I look in the book I find something new--as in how the heck did I miss that?? Recommend his book to everyone no matter what kind of boat they have. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27998|27990|2012-04-08 12:40:56|Mark Hamill|Re: Chinese Outboard Diesels|I phoned a Yanmar distributor years ago and asked about the outboards and the dealer said "You don't want to know the price."--- and when I insisted he told me I should sit down before he would tell me. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 27999|27999|2012-04-08 20:01:13|Mark Hamill|Nylon Propellors|Researching alternate propellor sources and I came across this site that list various manufacturers in China--a couple make nylon propellors as "an ideal replacement for bronze propellors." Anybody have any experience with nylon propellors?? Have asked for a quote and will let you know what happens. MarkH http://www.made-in-china.com/products-search/hot-china-products/Boat_Propeller.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28000|28000|2012-04-09 21:28:59|GP|Wind vane|http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/85913-video-jordan-series-drogue-deployment.html This is Silas Crosby deploying Jordan Series Drougue during heavy seas off of Chile (courtesy of her Captain, Steve Millar). My other interest was in observing the wind vane and how well it appeared to be working. Last year in Hecate Straight I had similar seas and had to manhandle the tiller to keep from broaching. Just wondering why my windvane (same BS 36)was overpowered. A couple of weeks ago Haidan mentioned that he had "tweaked" his wind vane and had better performance. Haidan... perhaps you could explain what you did so as to inform the group. Any comments regarding wind vane experience and use would be appreciated. I have used the wind vane with success in several points of sail but not when the wind really starts to pick up. ...thanks, Gary|