28001|28000|2012-04-11 12:06:46|haidan|Re: Wind vane|I extended the trim tab forward of the 1/2' pipe axis by 1", I also re-built the linkages with some larger rod as I had problems with the trim tab getting sucked back around and twisting it's way out of the linkages when I was reversing or if I forgot to adjust it before tacking. Giving the tab some counter balance like this made a huge difference, if I don't lock it down in neutral when motoring I can barely control the tiller, with all that water going past the rudder and tab it gives the tiller at least a 150 pounds of force, you can still of course steer the boat with your finger via the trim tab instead of fighting the tiller. Brent didn't really recommend a whole inch of counter balance, but I just welded some 1" SS tube to the front of the tab I already had thinking I could just split it and pinch it together if I needed to reduce it. I guess the counterbalance section sticks out into the "lift" side of the rudder and gives it a huge hump to circle which pulls on the rudder just that much more. maybe someone could explain this more? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/85913-video-jordan-series-drogue-deployment.html > > This is Silas Crosby deploying Jordan Series Drougue during heavy seas off of Chile (courtesy of her Captain, Steve Millar). > > My other interest was in observing the wind vane and how well it appeared to be working. Last year in Hecate Straight I had similar seas and had to manhandle the tiller to keep from broaching. Just wondering why my windvane (same BS 36)was overpowered. > > A couple of weeks ago Haidan mentioned that he had "tweaked" his wind vane and had better performance. Haidan... perhaps you could explain what you did so as to inform the group. > > Any comments regarding wind vane experience and use would be appreciated. I have used the wind vane with success in several points of sail but not when the wind really starts to pick up. > > ...thanks, Gary > | 28002|28000|2012-04-11 15:44:58|Paul Wilson|Re: Wind vane|I never followed Brent's plans for a wind-vane since his book wasn't out when I built my boat but we more or less have the same thing. Like Haidan, my trim tab is balanced as well. It is an airfoil shape made from thin SS sheet bent around the shaft with the shaft axis about 20 % back from the leading edge. With the sloppy bushings that Brent recommends, you can easily move it with one finger. Normally, all the fine tweaking is to get good response in light winds. If the tab is big enough and powerful enough, my guess is that you have a feedback problem since you are having a problem in strong winds. The right arm length is important to get the right feedback so make sure you followed Brent's plans. The arm on the tab should be about 50% to 60% the length of the distance between the tab axis and the rudder axis. This gives negative feedback and prevents over steering. Negative feedback means that as the rudder moves (corrects) the error signal (angle between the tab and the rudder) gets cancelled out. You can vary the arms a bit and experiment with the gain but I found the boat steers so well that I never found the need. Think of it as varying the length of the arm to the tab adjusts the feedback, varying the length of the arm to the vane adjusts the sensitivity or gain. Haidan is right about the power. I must lock the tab when not using the vane or it will kick over from the rudder or prop wash and take over from the tiller. John Letcher has a great book on self steering which I highly recommend. Much more info there. http://www.amazon.com/Self-Steering-Sailing-Craft-John-Letcher/dp/0877420424 Cheers, Paul On 12/04/2012 4:06 a.m., haidan wrote: > > I extended the trim tab forward of the 1/2' pipe axis by 1", I also > re-built the linkages with some larger rod as I had problems with the > trim tab getting sucked back around and twisting it's way out of the > linkages when I was reversing or if I forgot to adjust it before > tacking. Giving the tab some counter balance like this made a huge > difference, if I don't lock it down in neutral when motoring I can > barely control the tiller, with all that water going past the rudder > and tab it gives the tiller at least a 150 pounds of force, you can > still of course steer the boat with your finger via the trim tab > instead of fighting the tiller. Brent didn't really recommend a whole > inch of counter balance, but I just welded some 1" SS tube to the > front of the tab I already had thinking I could just split it and > pinch it together if I needed to reduce it. > I guess the counterbalance section sticks out into the "lift" side of > the rudder and gives it a huge hump to circle which pulls on the > rudder just that much more. maybe someone could explain this more? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "GP" wrote: > > > > > http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/85913-video-jordan-series-drogue-deployment.html > > > > This is Silas Crosby deploying Jordan Series Drougue during heavy > seas off of Chile (courtesy of her Captain, Steve Millar). > > > > My other interest was in observing the wind vane and how well it > appeared to be working. Last year in Hecate Straight I had similar > seas and had to manhandle the tiller to keep from broaching. Just > wondering why my windvane (same BS 36)was overpowered. > > > > A couple of weeks ago Haidan mentioned that he had "tweaked" his > wind vane and had better performance. Haidan... perhaps you could > explain what you did so as to inform the group. > > > > Any comments regarding wind vane experience and use would be > appreciated. I have used the wind vane with success in several points > of sail but not when the wind really starts to pick up. > > > > ...thanks, Gary > > > > | 28003|28000|2012-04-11 16:35:39|Mark Hamill|Re: Wind vane|"The Windvane Self Steering Handbook" by Bill Morris. This book also has some good information including a full size profile of a NACA type trim tab for those that might like to complicate life. "The Windvane Self Steering Handbook" by Bill Morris. It is in our local library system in the Comox Valley. MarkH| 28004|28004|2012-04-12 20:35:55|clove3clove|A Swain Chinese Junk making the rounds.|I came across this interesting vessel after they made contact with me through findacrew.net I wasn't aware that Mr. Swain had designed junks at all- I've only just started looking through this forum. What a unique and fun looking boat. http://www.nuthin-wong.blogspot.com/| 28005|28005|2012-04-12 20:36:15|smallboatvoyaguer|Removable ballast on bilge keel 26 footer|First post here... I'm going to build one of Brents 26 footers sometime starting in 2013. I currently live aboard my 20 foot glass boat in Lake Superior, and she is starting to feel a bit small, and god damn a pilot house would be nice for sailing in March and April. My question is this: Since we obviously don't have tides here (on Lake Superior), I am considering using removable ballast, so that I can careen the boat to take care of hull work, and not have to deal with the lifts. I'm planning on building the bilge keeler, but I could go either way. Shallow draft is preferable, the lake is getting more shallow every year. Any problems with this? I'm assuming if you did it right, there wouldn't be any. Any one done this? Thoughts?| 28006|27990|2012-04-12 20:42:20|brentswain38|Re: Chinese Outboard Diesels|I spent the first 12 years in my current boat, and the last 9 years in my last boat, with air cooled diesels aboard. Very simple, cheap , light, hot and noisy. Very reliable and hand startable . If I was short of funds, I would definitely go that route to get started. I tried all kinds of fans, and there was no way I could get the heat out. Great in winter, ran with the hatches open, while below in a T shirt , in January. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > FYI--Scott at the Junk Rig site wrote this: > > When I went to China in 2005, I saw widespread use of small (very noisy) diesel engines to carry great loads. Since then I have been thinking of getting an air cooled diesel outboard and wondering if anyone has any knowledge or experience of the models below. I read Brian Clifford's book 'Golden Lotus'. It had an air-cooled lister inboard it was for-ever giving trouble. I am not sure if those engines have been better devoloped since then? > > > http://www.diytrade.com/china/pd/9945686/Diesel_outboard_motor.html > > http://tayakomc.en.china.cn/selling-leads/detail,1001667016,Japan-Outboard-Engine-11HP-Electric-Start.html > > http://chelili.en.made-in-china.com/offer/ZqExdSojEDUf/Sell-Diesel-Outboard-Engine.html > > https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=diesel+outboard+motor&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-nz:IE-SearchBox&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=_EuAT6qJJsqiiAe25-S3BA&ved=0CHgQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=719 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28007|27999|2012-04-12 20:53:14|brentswain38|Re: Nylon Propellors|Outboards have been using nylon props for years . You could ask them and charter fishing guides how they compare. Would be fragile in BC with all those logs floating around , but could be a good spare or disposable if they are cheap enough. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Researching alternate propellor sources and I came across this site that list various manufacturers in China--a couple make nylon propellors as "an ideal replacement for bronze propellors." Anybody have any experience with nylon propellors?? Have asked for a quote and will let you know what happens. MarkH > > http://www.made-in-china.com/products-search/hot-china-products/Boat_Propeller.html > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28008|28000|2012-04-12 22:48:17|brentswain38|Re: Wind vane|Compare your trim tab with those on other 36 footers. Yours is pretty tiny , crude and unbalanced. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > I extended the trim tab forward of the 1/2' pipe axis by 1", I also re-built the linkages with some larger rod as I had problems with the trim tab getting sucked back around and twisting it's way out of the linkages when I was reversing or if I forgot to adjust it before tacking. Giving the tab some counter balance like this made a huge difference, if I don't lock it down in neutral when motoring I can barely control the tiller, with all that water going past the rudder and tab it gives the tiller at least a 150 pounds of force, you can still of course steer the boat with your finger via the trim tab instead of fighting the tiller. Brent didn't really recommend a whole inch of counter balance, but I just welded some 1" SS tube to the front of the tab I already had thinking I could just split it and pinch it together if I needed to reduce it. > I guess the counterbalance section sticks out into the "lift" side of the rudder and gives it a huge hump to circle which pulls on the rudder just that much more. maybe someone could explain this more? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/85913-video-jordan-series-drogue-deployment.html > > > > This is Silas Crosby deploying Jordan Series Drougue during heavy seas off of Chile (courtesy of her Captain, Steve Millar). > > > > My other interest was in observing the wind vane and how well it appeared to be working. Last year in Hecate Straight I had similar seas and had to manhandle the tiller to keep from broaching. Just wondering why my windvane (same BS 36)was overpowered. > > > > A couple of weeks ago Haidan mentioned that he had "tweaked" his wind vane and had better performance. Haidan... perhaps you could explain what you did so as to inform the group. > > > > Any comments regarding wind vane experience and use would be appreciated. I have used the wind vane with success in several points of sail but not when the wind really starts to pick up. > > > > ...thanks, Gary > > > | 28009|28005|2012-04-12 22:53:05|brentswain38|Re: Removable ballast on bilge keel 26 footer|I think you could pull her over without removing the ballast. If you go aground with a twin keeler, in a tideless area, you are really stuck, and hard to get off. Removable ballast has led to corrosion problems in many sister ships to Bernard Moitessier's Joshua. Cold climate and fresh water may reduce the problem somewhat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "smallboatvoyaguer" wrote: > > First post here... > > I'm going to build one of Brents 26 footers sometime starting in 2013. I currently live aboard my 20 foot glass boat in Lake Superior, and she is starting to feel a bit small, and god damn a pilot house would be nice for sailing in March and April. > My question is this: Since we obviously don't have tides here (on Lake Superior), I am considering using removable ballast, so that I can careen the boat to take care of hull work, and not have to deal with the lifts. I'm planning on building the bilge keeler, but I could go either way. Shallow draft is preferable, the lake is getting more shallow every year. > Any problems with this? I'm assuming if you did it right, there wouldn't be any. Any one done this? Thoughts? > | 28010|28004|2012-04-12 22:56:56|brentswain38|Re: A Swain Chinese Junk making the rounds.|This was a one off for the guy who sold my last boat for me. The Chinese designed the boat, I just came up with the hull patterns from lines he gave me. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "clove3clove" wrote: > > I came across this interesting vessel after they made contact with me through findacrew.net > > I wasn't aware that Mr. Swain had designed junks at all- I've only just started looking through this forum. > > What a unique and fun looking boat. > > http://www.nuthin-wong.blogspot.com/ > | 28011|28000|2012-04-13 12:30:24|steve|Re: Wind vane|Gary , we have found , as have most others , that the sail balance is really really important. Broad reaching in fresh winds and big seas is the most difficult on our boat. In fact we will try to bear off enough to go wing and wing in these conditions , which doesn't necessarily mean dead downwind. We will pole out the jib with the wind up to 20 or 25 degrees either side of dead aft. If that's not possible we have to deep reef the mainsail, if the wind is on the quarter. In only 20 knots true wind on a broad reach we might have 2 reefs in the main, 3 reefs if the seas are short period and steep thus tending to yaw the boat more. We might lose a little speed , but surprisingly little. More often we find that by reefing, the average boat speed increases. Also we will use the staysail with the genoa to move the centre of effort forward. Hull speed is easy to maintain in these conditions. In the same wind strength, wing and wing we would likely have only one reef in the main with full jib, course is truer and speed is higher with occasional surfs. As mentioned in other posts, the feedback adjustments are important , but once they were made, I haven't played with that for several years. Another point is that I did add about 30% to the area of the actual windvane several years ago. My-set up would probably be more powerful if the windvane was farther away from the axis , as it is on most set-ups that I've seen. I met an Australian guy in Chile who designed and built his aluminum 44' state-of-the-art moderate displacement cruising sailboat 'Volo'. He did his PhD thesis in engineering on "aero and hydro dynamics in self steering on yachts" !!. His unit is a thing of beauty handmade of mostly aluminum , a tall skinny horizontal axis(flops from side to side) wind paddle, that looks like a glider wing, connected to a rudder trimtab (as on our boats). We were rafted up and he had a good look at our windvane. He almost choked at the crude workmanship (for which I took total credit) and then asked me how well it worked. I replied that we NEVER handsteer at sea and not often in the channels. We have a little tiller pilot but don't use it much. He and I decided that 25 or 30,000 miles at decent speed was testament enough to its effectiveness. We have met folks with all types of commercial windvanes on different boats, with some who swear by them and some who swear at them. My best guess is that the difference might be constant attention to sail trim and balance, with frequent reefing/unreefing and sheet adjustment as conditions vary. So possibly, on our boat, probably the most important part of the self steering is the fast,easy mainsail reefing system, upwind or downwind. I guess that's why more and more boats have only autopilots.That and the fact that more and more boats are 45' plus. See you on the mud flat soon. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/85913-video-jordan-series-drogue-deployment.html > > This is Silas Crosby deploying Jordan Series Drougue during heavy seas off of Chile (courtesy of her Captain, Steve Millar). > > My other interest was in observing the wind vane and how well it appeared to be working. Last year in Hecate Straight I had similar seas and had to manhandle the tiller to keep from broaching. Just wondering why my windvane (same BS 36)was overpowered. > > A couple of weeks ago Haidan mentioned that he had "tweaked" his wind vane and had better performance. Haidan... perhaps you could explain what you did so as to inform the group. > > Any comments regarding wind vane experience and use would be appreciated. I have used the wind vane with success in several points of sail but not when the wind really starts to pick up. > > ...thanks, Gary > | 28012|27999|2012-04-13 12:50:36|Mark Hamill|Re: Nylon Propellors|One company sent me the specifications of the props they make and none appear to match the dimensions of what I might need. Will email and see if they can make changes. Mark H ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 5:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Nylon Propellors Outboards have been using nylon props for years . You could ask them and charter fishing guides how they compare. Would be fragile in BC with all those logs floating around , but could be a good spare or disposable if they are cheap enough. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Researching alternate propellor sources and I came across this site that list various manufacturers in China--a couple make nylon propellors as "an ideal replacement for bronze propellors." Anybody have any experience with nylon propellors?? Have asked for a quote and will let you know what happens. MarkH > > http://www.made-in-china.com/products-search/hot-china-products/Boat_Propeller.html > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28013|20743|2012-04-13 13:11:15|wild_explorer|Re: Size of comealongs?|I was looking for renting price of chain lever hoist. First - hard to find reasonable renting price and renting places. Now harbor freight sells 1.5T with 5ft chain lever hoist with load brake for $120 ($90 on sale) 1-1/2 Ton Lever Chain Hoist (Central Machinery - item#66106) http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-half-ton-lever-chain-hoist-66106.html Cons: This HF 1.5T chain lever hoist has only 5ft lift. More likely there is 15ft model, but not from HF. Harbor freight's wire comealongs/ratchets/winch pullers are overrated. It have only half capacity (because of using pulley which doubles capacity), plus flimsy design. People complain that 8000 Lb wire winch puller (~$30) felt apart where 1.5T chain hoist works just fine. Most 15ft, >1T, chain lever hoist cost >200-300$ new. It is possible to find used ones in ~$100-150 range, but... For used ones it is need to pay attention if load brake is not worn out, hooks are not deformed and bent, chain in good shape and not stretched (all above should be in safe manufacturer's specs). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I find that a couple of the cheap direct drive wire rope comealongs, preferably with a block on the hook end to give you a double purchase, are useful for most pulling, but to pull the hull together it is worthwhile to rent a 1.5 ton chain comealong for the one day it takes to pull the hull together, after it has all been cut out ,and the stringers and bulwarks welded on.After that the wire ones are all you need. They will be trashed by the end of the job, but will have justified their cheap cost. > Brent | 28014|28000|2012-04-13 14:31:14|GP|Re: Wind vane|Hi Steve... Thanks for the detailed reply! Very much looking foward to tweaking the process both tab and sail trim. ...welcome back... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > Gary , > we have found , as have most others , that the sail balance is really really important. > Broad reaching in fresh winds and big seas is the most difficult on our boat. In fact we will try to bear off enough to go wing and wing in these conditions , which doesn't necessarily mean dead downwind. We will pole out the jib with the wind up to 20 or 25 degrees either side of dead aft. > If that's not possible we have to deep reef the mainsail, if the wind is on the quarter. In only 20 knots true wind on a broad reach we might have 2 reefs in the main, 3 reefs if the seas are short period and steep thus tending to yaw the boat more. We might lose a little speed , but surprisingly little. More often we find that by reefing, the average boat speed increases. Also we will use the staysail with the genoa to move the centre of effort forward. Hull speed is easy to maintain in these conditions. > > In the same wind strength, wing and wing we would likely have only one reef in the main with full jib, course is truer and speed is higher with occasional surfs. > > As mentioned in other posts, the feedback adjustments are important , but once they were made, I haven't played with that for several years. > > Another point is that I did add about 30% to the area of the actual windvane several years ago. My-set up would probably be more powerful if the windvane was farther away from the axis , as it is on most set-ups that I've seen. > > I met an Australian guy in Chile who designed and built his aluminum 44' state-of-the-art moderate displacement cruising sailboat 'Volo'. He did his PhD thesis in engineering on "aero and hydro dynamics in self steering on yachts" !!. His unit is a thing of beauty handmade of mostly aluminum , a tall skinny horizontal axis(flops from side to side) wind paddle, that looks like a glider wing, connected to a rudder trimtab (as on our boats). > We were rafted up and he had a good look at our windvane. He almost choked at the crude workmanship (for which I took total credit) and then asked me how well it worked. I replied that we NEVER handsteer at sea and not often in the channels. We have a little tiller pilot but don't use it much. He and I decided that 25 or 30,000 miles at decent speed was testament enough to its effectiveness. > We have met folks with all types of commercial windvanes on different boats, with some who swear by them and some who swear at them. My best guess is that the difference might be constant attention to sail trim and balance, with frequent reefing/unreefing and sheet adjustment as conditions vary. > > So possibly, on our boat, probably the most important part of the self steering is the fast,easy mainsail reefing system, upwind or downwind. > > I guess that's why more and more boats have only autopilots.That and the fact that more and more boats are 45' plus. > See you on the mud flat soon. > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/85913-video-jordan-series-drogue-deployment.html > > > > This is Silas Crosby deploying Jordan Series Drougue during heavy seas off of Chile (courtesy of her Captain, Steve Millar). > > > > My other interest was in observing the wind vane and how well it appeared to be working. Last year in Hecate Straight I had similar seas and had to manhandle the tiller to keep from broaching. Just wondering why my windvane (same BS 36)was overpowered. > > > > A couple of weeks ago Haidan mentioned that he had "tweaked" his wind vane and had better performance. Haidan... perhaps you could explain what you did so as to inform the group. > > > > Any comments regarding wind vane experience and use would be appreciated. I have used the wind vane with success in several points of sail but not when the wind really starts to pick up. > > > > ...thanks, Gary > > > | 28015|28000|2012-04-14 03:51:55|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: Wind vane aux. rudder type ...|I have an aux. rudder type stainless steel windvane for sale. It has the rudder bushings machined in high molecular weight plastic and has the removable stainless pins for the stainless steel transom socket mounting. Needs work on the rudder Feedback mechanism is perfect having been fusion welded at considerable expense.  Very strong Available in Royston BC  for a couple of weeks before I put it on ebay. Must sell getting ready to cruise! $500.   Ian ian.jean at shaw dot com   ----- Original Message ----- From: GP Date: Friday, April 13, 2012 11:31 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wind vane To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Hi Steve... > > Thanks for the detailed reply! Very much looking foward to > tweaking the process both tab and sail trim. > > ...welcome back... > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" > wrote: > > > > Gary , > >  we have found , as have most others , that the sail > balance is really really important. > > Broad reaching in fresh winds and big seas is the most > difficult on our boat. In fact we will try to bear off enough to > go wing and wing in these conditions , which doesn't necessarily > mean dead downwind. We will pole out the jib with the wind up to > 20 or 25 degrees either side of dead aft. > >  If that's not possible we have to deep reef the > mainsail, if the wind is on the quarter. In only 20 knots true > wind on a broad reach we might have 2 reefs in the main, 3 reefs > if the seas are short period and steep thus tending to yaw the > boat more. We might lose a little speed , but surprisingly > little. More often we find that by reefing, the average boat > speed increases. Also we will use the staysail with the genoa to > move the centre of effort forward. Hull speed is easy to > maintain in these conditions. > > > > In the same wind strength, wing and wing we would likely have > only one reef in the main with full jib, course is truer and > speed is higher with occasional surfs. > > > > As mentioned in other posts, the feedback adjustments are > important , but once they were made, I haven't played with that > for several years. > > > > Another point is that I did add about 30% to the area of the > actual windvane several years ago. My-set up would probably be > more powerful if the windvane was farther away from the axis , > as it is on most set-ups that I've seen. > > > > I met an Australian guy in Chile who designed and built his > aluminum 44' state-of-the-art moderate displacement cruising > sailboat 'Volo'. He did his PhD thesis in engineering on "aero > and hydro dynamics in self steering on yachts" !!. His unit is a > thing of beauty handmade of mostly aluminum , a tall skinny > horizontal axis(flops from side to side) wind paddle, that looks > like a glider wing, connected to a rudder trimtab (as on our boats). > > We were rafted up and he had a good look at our windvane. He > almost choked at the crude workmanship (for which I took total > credit) and then asked me how well it worked. I replied that we > NEVER handsteer at sea and not often in the channels. We have a > little tiller pilot but don't use it much. He and I decided that > 25 or 30,000 miles at decent speed was testament enough to its > effectiveness.>  We have met folks with all types of > commercial windvanes on different boats, with some who swear by > them and some who swear at them. My best guess is that the > difference might be constant attention to sail trim and balance, > with frequent reefing/unreefing and sheet adjustment as > conditions vary. > > > > So possibly, on our boat, probably the most important part of > the self steering is the fast,easy mainsail reefing system, > upwind or downwind. > > > > I guess that's why more and more boats have only > autopilots.That and the fact that more and more boats are 45' plus. > > See you on the mud flat soon. > > Steve > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > > > http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing- > related/85913-video-jordan-series-drogue-deployment.html > > > > > > This is Silas Crosby deploying Jordan Series Drougue during > heavy seas off of Chile (courtesy of her Captain, Steve > Millar).  > > > > > > My other interest was in observing the wind vane and how > well it appeared to be working.  Last year in Hecate > Straight I had similar seas and had to manhandle the tiller to > keep from broaching.  Just wondering why my windvane (same > BS 36)was overpowered.  > > > > > > A couple of weeks ago Haidan mentioned that he had "tweaked" > his wind vane and had better performance.  Haidan... > perhaps you could explain what you did so as to inform the group. > > > > > > Any comments regarding wind vane experience and use would be > appreciated.  I have used the wind vane with success in > several points of sail but not when the wind really starts to > pick up. > > > > > > ...thanks, Gary > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28016|28005|2012-04-14 19:24:47|smallboatvoyaguer|Re: Removable ballast on bilge keel 26 footer|The thought of running aground on bilge keels had crossed my mind... Perhaps I should just deal with the fact that although you can't have everything in one boat, you can have most. My current boat only draws two and a half, so I guess I'm spoiled. "Warning- If you loan this book out, you will never see it again." I have since built a windvane from scraps for about $25, and also a wood stove from scrap for free. I am the guy that kept trying to buy plans via wire transfers and ckecks while the postal service was on strike. Thanks Brent. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I think you could pull her over without removing the ballast. If you go aground with a twin keeler, in a tideless area, you are really stuck, and hard to get off. > Removable ballast has led to corrosion problems in many sister ships to Bernard Moitessier's Joshua. Cold climate and fresh water may reduce the problem somewhat. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "smallboatvoyaguer" wrote: > > > > First post here... > > > > I'm going to build one of Brents 26 footers sometime starting in 2013. I currently live aboard my 20 foot glass boat in Lake Superior, and she is starting to feel a bit small, and god damn a pilot house would be nice for sailing in March and April. > > My question is this: Since we obviously don't have tides here (on Lake Superior), I am considering using removable ballast, so that I can careen the boat to take care of hull work, and not have to deal with the lifts. I'm planning on building the bilge keeler, but I could go either way. Shallow draft is preferable, the lake is getting more shallow every year. > > Any problems with this? I'm assuming if you did it right, there wouldn't be any. Any one done this? Thoughts? > > > | 28017|28005|2012-04-14 19:26:34|brentswain38|Re: Removable ballast on bilge keel 26 footer|I never received either. Sleep tight , our postal service is awake( or so they claim) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "smallboatvoyaguer" wrote: > > The thought of running aground on bilge keels had crossed my mind... > Perhaps I should just deal with the fact that although you can't have everything in one boat, you can have most. My current boat only draws two and a half, so I guess I'm spoiled. > "Warning- If you loan this book out, you will never see it again." I have since built a windvane from scraps for about $25, and also a wood stove from scrap for free. I am the guy that kept trying to buy plans via wire transfers and ckecks while the postal service was on strike. Thanks Brent. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I think you could pull her over without removing the ballast. If you go aground with a twin keeler, in a tideless area, you are really stuck, and hard to get off. > > Removable ballast has led to corrosion problems in many sister ships to Bernard Moitessier's Joshua. Cold climate and fresh water may reduce the problem somewhat. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "smallboatvoyaguer" wrote: > > > > > > First post here... > > > > > > I'm going to build one of Brents 26 footers sometime starting in 2013. I currently live aboard my 20 foot glass boat in Lake Superior, and she is starting to feel a bit small, and god damn a pilot house would be nice for sailing in March and April. > > > My question is this: Since we obviously don't have tides here (on Lake Superior), I am considering using removable ballast, so that I can careen the boat to take care of hull work, and not have to deal with the lifts. I'm planning on building the bilge keeler, but I could go either way. Shallow draft is preferable, the lake is getting more shallow every year. > > > Any problems with this? I'm assuming if you did it right, there wouldn't be any. Any one done this? Thoughts? > > > > > > | 28018|28000|2012-04-14 19:32:31|brentswain38|Re: Wind vane|Hull balance( avoiding excessively wide stern sections in combination with lean bows) is also important. The boat should be able to take any angle of heel without the bow dropping and the stern rising. My book covers this. I have often reefed and seen the speed increase considerably --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > Gary , > we have found , as have most others , that the sail balance is really really important. > Broad reaching in fresh winds and big seas is the most difficult on our boat. In fact we will try to bear off enough to go wing and wing in these conditions , which doesn't necessarily mean dead downwind. We will pole out the jib with the wind up to 20 or 25 degrees either side of dead aft. > If that's not possible we have to deep reef the mainsail, if the wind is on the quarter. In only 20 knots true wind on a broad reach we might have 2 reefs in the main, 3 reefs if the seas are short period and steep thus tending to yaw the boat more. We might lose a little speed , but surprisingly little. More often we find that by reefing, the average boat speed increases. Also we will use the staysail with the genoa to move the centre of effort forward. Hull speed is easy to maintain in these conditions. > > In the same wind strength, wing and wing we would likely have only one reef in the main with full jib, course is truer and speed is higher with occasional surfs. > > As mentioned in other posts, the feedback adjustments are important , but once they were made, I haven't played with that for several years. > > Another point is that I did add about 30% to the area of the actual windvane several years ago. My-set up would probably be more powerful if the windvane was farther away from the axis , as it is on most set-ups that I've seen. > > I met an Australian guy in Chile who designed and built his aluminum 44' state-of-the-art moderate displacement cruising sailboat 'Volo'. He did his PhD thesis in engineering on "aero and hydro dynamics in self steering on yachts" !!. His unit is a thing of beauty handmade of mostly aluminum , a tall skinny horizontal axis(flops from side to side) wind paddle, that looks like a glider wing, connected to a rudder trimtab (as on our boats). > We were rafted up and he had a good look at our windvane. He almost choked at the crude workmanship (for which I took total credit) and then asked me how well it worked. I replied that we NEVER handsteer at sea and not often in the channels. We have a little tiller pilot but don't use it much. He and I decided that 25 or 30,000 miles at decent speed was testament enough to its effectiveness. > We have met folks with all types of commercial windvanes on different boats, with some who swear by them and some who swear at them. My best guess is that the difference might be constant attention to sail trim and balance, with frequent reefing/unreefing and sheet adjustment as conditions vary. > > So possibly, on our boat, probably the most important part of the self steering is the fast,easy mainsail reefing system, upwind or downwind. > > I guess that's why more and more boats have only autopilots.That and the fact that more and more boats are 45' plus. > See you on the mud flat soon. > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/85913-video-jordan-series-drogue-deployment.html > > > > This is Silas Crosby deploying Jordan Series Drougue during heavy seas off of Chile (courtesy of her Captain, Steve Millar). > > > > My other interest was in observing the wind vane and how well it appeared to be working. Last year in Hecate Straight I had similar seas and had to manhandle the tiller to keep from broaching. Just wondering why my windvane (same BS 36)was overpowered. > > > > A couple of weeks ago Haidan mentioned that he had "tweaked" his wind vane and had better performance. Haidan... perhaps you could explain what you did so as to inform the group. > > > > Any comments regarding wind vane experience and use would be appreciated. I have used the wind vane with success in several points of sail but not when the wind really starts to pick up. > > > > ...thanks, Gary > > > | 28019|28000|2012-04-14 19:35:02|brentswain38|Re: Wind vane aux. rudder type ...|Loose, rattly plastic bearings are important for light air performance. They should have at least about 1/16th inch clearance, no less. This is where perfectionists often screw up. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > I have an aux. rudder type stainless steel windvane for sale. > > It has the rudder bushings machined in high molecular weight plastic and has the removable stainless pins for the stainless steel transom socket mounting. > > Needs work on the rudder > > Feedback mechanism is perfect having been fusion welded at considerable expense.  > > Very strong > > > Available in Royston BC  for a couple of weeks before I put it on ebay. > > Must sell getting ready to cruise! > > $500.   Ian > > ian.jean at shaw dot com > >   > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: GP > Date: Friday, April 13, 2012 11:31 am > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wind vane > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Hi Steve... > > > > Thanks for the detailed reply! Very much looking foward to > > tweaking the process both tab and sail trim. > > > > ...welcome back... > > > > Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" > > wrote: > > > > > > Gary , > > >  we have found , as have most others , that the sail > > balance is really really important. > > > Broad reaching in fresh winds and big seas is the most > > difficult on our boat. In fact we will try to bear off enough to > > go wing and wing in these conditions , which doesn't necessarily > > mean dead downwind. We will pole out the jib with the wind up to > > 20 or 25 degrees either side of dead aft. > > >  If that's not possible we have to deep reef the > > mainsail, if the wind is on the quarter. In only 20 knots true > > wind on a broad reach we might have 2 reefs in the main, 3 reefs > > if the seas are short period and steep thus tending to yaw the > > boat more. We might lose a little speed , but surprisingly > > little. More often we find that by reefing, the average boat > > speed increases. Also we will use the staysail with the genoa to > > move the centre of effort forward. Hull speed is easy to > > maintain in these conditions. > > > > > > In the same wind strength, wing and wing we would likely have > > only one reef in the main with full jib, course is truer and > > speed is higher with occasional surfs. > > > > > > As mentioned in other posts, the feedback adjustments are > > important , but once they were made, I haven't played with that > > for several years. > > > > > > Another point is that I did add about 30% to the area of the > > actual windvane several years ago. My-set up would probably be > > more powerful if the windvane was farther away from the axis , > > as it is on most set-ups that I've seen. > > > > > > I met an Australian guy in Chile who designed and built his > > aluminum 44' state-of-the-art moderate displacement cruising > > sailboat 'Volo'. He did his PhD thesis in engineering on "aero > > and hydro dynamics in self steering on yachts" !!. His unit is a > > thing of beauty handmade of mostly aluminum , a tall skinny > > horizontal axis(flops from side to side) wind paddle, that looks > > like a glider wing, connected to a rudder trimtab (as on our boats). > > > We were rafted up and he had a good look at our windvane. He > > almost choked at the crude workmanship (for which I took total > > credit) and then asked me how well it worked. I replied that we > > NEVER handsteer at sea and not often in the channels. We have a > > little tiller pilot but don't use it much. He and I decided that > > 25 or 30,000 miles at decent speed was testament enough to its > > effectiveness.>  We have met folks with all types of > > commercial windvanes on different boats, with some who swear by > > them and some who swear at them. My best guess is that the > > difference might be constant attention to sail trim and balance, > > with frequent reefing/unreefing and sheet adjustment as > > conditions vary. > > > > > > So possibly, on our boat, probably the most important part of > > the self steering is the fast,easy mainsail reefing system, > > upwind or downwind. > > > > > > I guess that's why more and more boats have only > > autopilots.That and the fact that more and more boats are 45' plus. > > > See you on the mud flat soon. > > > Steve > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > > > > > http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing- > > related/85913-video-jordan-series-drogue-deployment.html > > > > > > > > This is Silas Crosby deploying Jordan Series Drougue during > > heavy seas off of Chile (courtesy of her Captain, Steve > > Millar).  > > > > > > > > My other interest was in observing the wind vane and how > > well it appeared to be working.  Last year in Hecate > > Straight I had similar seas and had to manhandle the tiller to > > keep from broaching.  Just wondering why my windvane (same > > BS 36)was overpowered.  > > > > > > > > A couple of weeks ago Haidan mentioned that he had "tweaked" > > his wind vane and had better performance.  Haidan... > > perhaps you could explain what you did so as to inform the group. > > > > > > > > Any comments regarding wind vane experience and use would be > > appreciated.  I have used the wind vane with success in > > several points of sail but not when the wind really starts to > > pick up. > > > > > > > > ...thanks, Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28020|28005|2012-04-14 20:45:48|chris123|Re: Removable ballast on bilge keel 26 footer|Not sure about that Brent......hence the request to ping me once it arrives. One example was a registered over night delivery from London to Ottawa, 21 days.. No kidding. When I complained the princess at the wicket said....read the fine print..) /ch On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 7:26 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > I never received either. Sleep tight , our postal service is awake( or so > they claim) > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "smallboatvoyaguer" > wrote: > > > > The thought of running aground on bilge keels had crossed my mind... > > Perhaps I should just deal with the fact that although you can't have > everything in one boat, you can have most. My current boat only draws two > and a half, so I guess I'm spoiled. > > "Warning- If you loan this book out, you will never see it again." I > have since built a windvane from scraps for about $25, and also a wood > stove from scrap for free. I am the guy that kept trying to buy plans via > wire transfers and ckecks while the postal service was on strike. Thanks > Brent. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > I think you could pull her over without removing the ballast. If you > go aground with a twin keeler, in a tideless area, you are really stuck, > and hard to get off. > > > Removable ballast has led to corrosion problems in many sister ships > to Bernard Moitessier's Joshua. Cold climate and fresh water may reduce the > problem somewhat. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "smallboatvoyaguer" > wrote: > > > > > > > > First post here... > > > > > > > > I'm going to build one of Brents 26 footers sometime starting in > 2013. I currently live aboard my 20 foot glass boat in Lake Superior, and > she is starting to feel a bit small, and god damn a pilot house would be > nice for sailing in March and April. > > > > My question is this: Since we obviously don't have tides here (on > Lake Superior), I am considering using removable ballast, so that I can > careen the boat to take care of hull work, and not have to deal with the > lifts. I'm planning on building the bilge keeler, but I could go either > way. Shallow draft is preferable, the lake is getting more shallow every > year. > > > > Any problems with this? I'm assuming if you did it right, there > wouldn't be any. Any one done this? Thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28021|28000|2012-04-14 22:50:07|Paul Wilson|Re: Wind vane|On 14/04/2012 4:30 a.m., steve wrote: > > Another point is that I did add about 30% to the area of the actual > windvane several years ago. My-set up would probably be more powerful > if the windvane was farther away from the axis , as it is on most > set-ups that I've seen. Hi Steve, I just had a look at your video of deploying your Jourdon drogue. I hate to give any advice to someone with so much experience but I think you would get more power out of your windvane if the spread between the two sides on the your vane was greater. On mine, I have it at about 30 degrees between the two cloths and I find it is very powerful. I think I have about the same "sail area" as you on the vane. This should be easy to do without too much of a mod. Thanks so much for posting the video and congratulations again on sailing round the horn. Keep it coming. Cheers, Paul| 28022|28000|2012-04-15 11:40:52|steve|Re: Wind vane|Paul . Good idea. I'll try it. Should take me about 30 seconds to make that change. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > On 14/04/2012 4:30 a.m., steve wrote: > > > > Another point is that I did add about 30% to the area of the actual > > windvane several years ago. My-set up would probably be more powerful > > if the windvane was farther away from the axis , as it is on most > > set-ups that I've seen. > > Hi Steve, > > I just had a look at your video of deploying your Jourdon drogue. I > hate to give any advice to someone with so much experience but I think > you would get more power out of your windvane if the spread between the > two sides on the your vane was greater. On mine, I have it at about 30 > degrees between the two cloths and I find it is very powerful. I think > I have about the same "sail area" as you on the vane. This should be > easy to do without too much of a mod. > > Thanks so much for posting the video and congratulations again on > sailing round the horn. Keep it coming. > > Cheers, Paul > | 28023|28000|2012-04-15 16:06:42|Don & Karina|Re: Wind vane|Lol, don't sugar coat it! Don B. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 9:48 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wind vane Compare your trim tab with those on other 36 footers. Yours is pretty tiny , crude and unbalanced. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "haidan" wrote: > > I extended the trim tab forward of the 1/2' pipe axis by 1", I also re-built the linkages with some larger rod as I had problems with the trim tab getting sucked back around and twisting it's way out of the linkages when I was reversing or if I forgot to adjust it before tacking. Giving the tab some counter balance like this made a huge difference, if I don't lock it down in neutral when motoring I can barely control the tiller, with all that water going past the rudder and tab it gives the tiller at least a 150 pounds of force, you can still of course steer the boat with your finger via the trim tab instead of fighting the tiller. Brent didn't really recommend a whole inch of counter balance, but I just welded some 1" SS tube to the front of the tab I already had thinking I could just split it and pinch it together if I needed to reduce it. > I guess the counterbalance section sticks out into the "lift" side of the rudder and gives it a huge hump to circle which pulls on the rudder just that much more. maybe someone could explain this more? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "GP" wrote: > > > > http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/85913-video -jordan-series-drogue-deployment.html > > > > This is Silas Crosby deploying Jordan Series Drougue during heavy seas off of Chile (courtesy of her Captain, Steve Millar). > > > > My other interest was in observing the wind vane and how well it appeared to be working. Last year in Hecate Straight I had similar seas and had to manhandle the tiller to keep from broaching. Just wondering why my windvane (same BS 36)was overpowered. > > > > A couple of weeks ago Haidan mentioned that he had "tweaked" his wind vane and had better performance. Haidan... perhaps you could explain what you did so as to inform the group. > > > > Any comments regarding wind vane experience and use would be appreciated. I have used the wind vane with success in several points of sail but not when the wind really starts to pick up. > > > > ...thanks, Gary > > > _____ size=1 width="100%" noshade color="#aca899" align=center> No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2411/4934 - Release Date: 04/13/12 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28024|26545|2012-04-17 13:24:21|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I was looking for the price of NEW plasma cutters and found this one: 110/220V, 60%@40A output, Air flow rate 3.0cfm at 20-65psi, cut up to 3/8", $600 http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-plasma-cutter.html Not cheapest, but looks like a good quality unit. I was told by our instructor that it is need to look how expensive consumables are. Should be <$5-6. Usually you spend more money on nozzles/tips. For this one it looks reasonable ~$2+2=4 Nozzle ~ $1.7 http://www.eastwood.com/versa-cut-nozzle.html?reltype=2&parent_id=5571 Tip ~ $2 http://www.eastwood.com/electrodes-for-eastwood-s-versa-cut-10pc.html?reltype=2&parent_id=5571| 28025|26545|2012-04-17 13:43:09|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Here is another one to look at   http://www.everlastwelders.ca/product_details.php?id=316   James --- On Tue, 4/17/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 1:24 PM   I was looking for the price of NEW plasma cutters and found this one: 110/220V, 60%@40A output, Air flow rate 3.0cfm at 20-65psi, cut up to 3/8", $600 http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-plasma-cutter.html Not cheapest, but looks like a good quality unit. I was told by our instructor that it is need to look how expensive consumables are. Should be <$5-6. Usually you spend more money on nozzles/tips. For this one it looks reasonable ~$2+2=4 Nozzle ~ $1.7 http://www.eastwood.com/versa-cut-nozzle.html?reltype=2&parent_id=5571 Tip ~ $2 http://www.eastwood.com/electrodes-for-eastwood-s-versa-cut-10pc.html?reltype=2&parent_id=5571 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28026|26545|2012-04-17 15:44:00|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Everlast is very strange company. I was looking for its products for some times. The price and warranty is different for US and Canada for the same model ($650/5yr vs $550/1yr). http://www.everlastgenerators.com/SuperCut-50P-3905-pd.html Could not find consumables compatible with product as well. What I see for plasma cutting torches is pretty expensive. I had e-mailed to local Everlast representative - very hard to get information at all (especially about warranty and who handles it). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Here is another one to look at >   > http://www.everlastwelders.ca/product_details.php?id=316 >   > James | 28027|26545|2012-04-17 19:57:20|Kim|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|This place sells what may be the cheapest plasma consumables in the World: http://www.river-weld.com/ Located in China. Will ship very small quantities anywhere. Pay via Paypal. Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was looking for the price of NEW plasma cutters and found this one: > > 110/220V, 60%@40A output, Air flow rate 3.0cfm at 20-65psi, cut up to 3/8", $600 > > http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-plasma-cutter.html > > Not cheapest, but looks like a good quality unit. > > I was told by our instructor that it is need to look how expensive consumables are. Should be <$5-6. Usually you spend more money on nozzles/tips. For this one it looks reasonable ~$2+2=4 > > Nozzle ~ $1.7 > http://www.eastwood.com/versa-cut-nozzle.html?reltype=2&parent_id=5571 > > Tip ~ $2 > http://www.eastwood.com/electrodes-for-eastwood-s-versa-cut-10pc.html?reltype=2&parent_id=5571 ______________________________________________________________ | 28028|26545|2012-04-18 11:38:09|Matt Malone|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|The Everlast Canada people are not far from me, so I called them about the $550 SuperCut 50P from Everlast Welders.ca that James Prong suggested: http://www.everlastwelders.ca/product_details.php?id=316 Wild said he could not find the consumables, and noted differences in price and warranty. The guy at Everlast Canada said the gun that goes with the SuperCut 50P is called an AG60. If you put "AG60" into the search box on the Everlast Canadian website you get a list of consumables packages, from 10 electrodes for $40, to 70 piece set including 30 electrodes, 30 tips, 10 ceramic cups for $160. I just found a link: http://www.everlastwelders.ca/Plasma-Consumables-Products.php?id=128 One would have to purchase in bulk (70 piece set) to get an electrode/tip set of consumables under $6. The salesman cautioned that the consumables for the AG60 gun were not common, and, other than him, he did not know anyone in Canada who sells the consumables. He suggested they might be purchased on the internet. Sears had a webpage (found via google "ag60 plasma consumables" but it auto-forwards) for consumables for the AG60, and it seemed to go with a product they used to sell: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM3033500602P?prdNo=7&blockNo=7&blockType=G7 The same product (?) is available from Simadre: http://www.simadrestore.com/sipiarc50amd.html Simadre plasma cutter. Its consumables seem to be similar: http://www.simadrestore.com/sihiqucowsws.html And not a bad price, and they are located in California. I would confirm all of this before considering a purchase. The salesman at Everlast suggested that for the other models he sells (which cost more) they use consumables that are more widely available including he believed at Fastenall and Princess Auto -- unverified. I would ask, has anyone actually used the SuperCut 50P? Does anyone have any guess as to how many tips and electrodes one might go through cutting out a Brent boat ? (Just as a standard measure of a big job.) Does anyone have a comment about usage of MOSFET-based inverter plasma cutters vs. IGBT-based inverter plasma cutters? Failures? Quality of Cut? Performance? Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28029|26545|2012-04-18 11:48:18|Matt Malone|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|There is this one too: http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-tools-IGBT-60-Amps-Plasma-Cutter-Cuts-up-to-1-W0QQAdIdZ248860150 I could not swear to it, but the consumables look the same as the AG60. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: m_j_malone@... Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:38:07 -0400 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) The Everlast Canada people are not far from me, so I called them about the $550 SuperCut 50P from Everlast Welders.ca that James Prong suggested: http://www.everlastwelders.ca/product_details.php?id=316 Wild said he could not find the consumables, and noted differences in price and warranty. The guy at Everlast Canada said the gun that goes with the SuperCut 50P is called an AG60. If you put "AG60" into the search box on the Everlast Canadian website you get a list of consumables packages, from 10 electrodes for $40, to 70 piece set including 30 electrodes, 30 tips, 10 ceramic cups for $160. I just found a link: http://www.everlastwelders.ca/Plasma-Consumables-Products.php?id=128 One would have to purchase in bulk (70 piece set) to get an electrode/tip set of consumables under $6. The salesman cautioned that the consumables for the AG60 gun were not common, and, other than him, he did not know anyone in Canada who sells the consumables. He suggested they might be purchased on the internet. Sears had a webpage (found via google "ag60 plasma consumables" but it auto-forwards) for consumables for the AG60, and it seemed to go with a product they used to sell: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM3033500602P?prdNo=7&blockNo=7&blockType=G7 The same product (?) is available from Simadre: http://www.simadrestore.com/sipiarc50amd.html Simadre plasma cutter. Its consumables seem to be similar: http://www.simadrestore.com/sihiqucowsws.html And not a bad price, and they are located in California. I would confirm all of this before considering a purchase. The salesman at Everlast suggested that for the other models he sells (which cost more) they use consumables that are more widely available including he believed at Fastenall and Princess Auto -- unverified. I would ask, has anyone actually used the SuperCut 50P? Does anyone have any guess as to how many tips and electrodes one might go through cutting out a Brent boat ? (Just as a standard measure of a big job.) Does anyone have a comment about usage of MOSFET-based inverter plasma cutters vs. IGBT-based inverter plasma cutters? Failures? Quality of Cut? Performance? Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28030|26545|2012-04-18 11:58:30|Matt Malone|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Consumables for that last one... looks like it would fit the Everlast machine too: http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-tools-IGBT-60-Amps-Plasma-Cutter-Consumables-for-most-Chinese-machines-W0QQAdIdZ248859068 Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: m_j_malone@... Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:48:11 -0400 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) There is this one too: http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-tools-IGBT-60-Amps-Plasma-Cutter-Cuts-up-to-1-W0QQAdIdZ248860150 I could not swear to it, but the consumables look the same as the AG60. Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28031|26545|2012-04-18 12:35:50|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Someone (Kim?) suggested to use 40A models simply because you can drag cutting torch on metal (easier to cut). Models with higher amperage require to maintain the gap between the work and the torch. Our instructor told us that plasma consumables for plasma torch need to be replaced after about 1-2 hours (continuous cut), earlier with frequent start-stop cuts. Speed of cutting depends on metal and quality of cut (may be found in unit's specs). Most small plasma cutters have 30-60% duty cycle. Air flow and pressure requirements are different for different units as well (depends on torch's design?). I was trying to compare small (40A) plasma torches used by Miller with some no-name torches. Some of them look very similar and probably use the same consumables ;) Warranty and service availability is a big deal too - you do not want to stuck without unit for 1-2 month (get RMA#, send unit back, wait for repair, etc). Warranty should be about 3-5 years in US. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > Does anyone have any guess as to how many tips and > electrodes one might go through cutting out a Brent > boat ? (Just as a standard measure of a big job.) > | 28032|26545|2012-04-18 17:07:44|Kim|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Hi Wild and Matt ... Yes, it was me that said the plasma torch tip can be dragged across the metal surface if the plasma cutter is rated at 40 amps or less (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/26248). I was initially told that by a couple of old retired meatalworkers, and I also subsequently confirmed it via Internet searches (sorry; but unfortunately I no longer have the URL references). Dragging the plasma tip across the metal is a procedure I use all the time with my 40 amp plasma cutter. Being able to do that definitely makes the cutting process very much easier, and I've found that, in my case at least, it certainly doesn't appear to adversely affect the life of the plasma torch consumables in any way at all. However, having said that, in practice, maintaining a 1mm gap between the torch tip and the metal makes it very much easier to see the scribe-line on the metal that you're cutting to. The plasma cutter makes such a neat, clean, distortion-free cut there's very little need for any post-cutting cleanup. The plasma cutter I'm using uses common and inexpensive PT-31 consumables. In an earlier message (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/28027) I gave a link to a Chinese site that specializes in plasma consumables (http://www.river-weld.com/). I just did a search on their site and I notice that they sell the AG-60 consumables that Matt recently mentioned at pretty good prices (eg: a 90-piece pack for US$47.40). A pack or two like that would probably be enough for the whole boat! Matt: I don't know how a MOSFET-based inverter plasma cutter compares to an IGBT-based cutter; but I've just bought a 4.5kg IGBT-based 200-amp inverter stick-welder (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WeldSmart-200A-IGBT-Inverter-Welder-Arc-MMA-Stick-Tig-/130587223129?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item1e679ae459), and it's easily the most extraordinarily excellent welder I've ever used! Based on that experience, I would assume that an IGBT-based plasma cutter would be far superior. Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Someone (Kim?) suggested to use 40A models simply because you can drag cutting torch on metal (easier to cut). Models with higher amperage require to maintain the gap between the work and the torch. > > Our instructor told us that plasma consumables for plasma torch need to be replaced after about 1-2 hours (continuous cut), earlier with frequent start-stop cuts. Speed of cutting depends on metal and quality of cut (may be found in unit's specs). Most small plasma cutters have 30-60% duty cycle. Air flow and pressure requirements are different for different units as well (depends on torch's design?). > > I was trying to compare small (40A) plasma torches used by Miller with some no-name torches. Some of them look very similar and probably use the same consumables ;) > > Warranty and service availability is a big deal too - you do not want to stuck without unit for 1-2 month (get RMA#, send unit back, wait for repair, etc). Warranty should be about 3-5 years in US. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > Does anyone have any guess as to how many tips and > > electrodes one might go through cutting out a Brent > > boat ? (Just as a standard measure of a big job.) ______________________________________________________________ | 28033|26545|2012-04-18 17:38:33|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Thanks Kim and Matt! I did not pay attention about difference between MOSFET and IGBT before... Typical IGBT applications include: · Motor control: Frequency <20kHz, short circuit/in-rush limit protection · Uninterruptible power supply (UPS): Constant load, typically low frequency · Welding: High average current, low frequency (<50kHz), ZVS circuitry · Low-power lighting: Low frequency (<100kHz) MOSFETs are preferred in: · High frequency applications (>200kHz) · Wide line or load variations · Long duty cycles · Low-voltage applications (<250V) · < 500W output power Reasonably simple source: http://www.irf.com/technical-info/whitepaper/choosewisely.pdf Very Technical: http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/IFX+-+AN_18+-+Differences+Between+MOSFET+and+IGBT.pdf?folderId=db3a30431c69a49d011c6f86019b00a1&fileId=db3a304320896aa201208a819a5f0003 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > Does anyone have a comment about usage of > MOSFET-based inverter plasma cutters vs. IGBT-based > inverter plasma cutters? Failures? Quality of Cut? > Performance? > | 28034|26545|2012-04-18 17:40:45|Darren Bos|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Wild/Matt I bought a Lotos Cut 50D (similar to the many chinese plasma cutters offered under a variety of brands) off e-bay a few years ago for a bit over $300 including shipping. At that point almost all the inexpensive models were Mosfet based and my mosfet unit hasn't given me any problems. This machine has done a bunch of small projects, but nothing near the number of feet of cutting you would do in a boat. So far no problems. It cuts up to 1/4" cleanly (haven't needed to cut anything thicker). The consumables are cheap (~ $2 for a swirl ring/cup/ electrode/ nozzle all together and the electrodes are reversible for extra wear). I did adjust the gap for the HF points once, but that was about 15 min work. These chinese machines are so common that it is easy to find info on just about every aspect on the web. The cutter is happy to work dragging or with a bit of standoff. The tips seem to last longer with a bit of standoff. I drink too much coffee and thus drag the tip most of the time for nicer lines. The one problem with the chinese plasma cutters is that the consumables are not easy to get locally, but they are cheap enough to order a good supply to keep on hand. I have a 50 amp machine and a 50 amp torch, some vendors sell 50 amp machines with a 40 amp torch or with a 60 amp torch. My understanding is that the 40 torch wears quicker and that the 60 is harder on the machine. One thing to watch for is the kind of torch you get with a chinese machine. Similar torches can use different consumables and that can change whether you pay <$2 for a complete set or more like $7. For what I paid and how I've used it, my machine owes me nothing. It would be hard to live without it now. Darren At 08:38 AM 18/04/2012, you wrote: > > > > >The Everlast Canada people are not far from me, so >I called them about the $550 SuperCut 50P from >Everlast Welders.ca that James Prong suggested: > >http://www.everlastwelders.ca/product_details.php?id=316 > >Wild said he could not find the consumables, and >noted differences in price and warranty. > >The guy at Everlast Canada said the gun that goes with >the SuperCut 50P is called an AG60. If you put "AG60" >into the search box on the Everlast Canadian website >you get a list of consumables packages, from 10 >electrodes for $40, to 70 piece set including 30 electrodes, >30 tips, 10 ceramic cups for $160. I just found a link: > >http://www.everlastwelders.ca/Plasma-Consumables-Products.php?id=128 > >One would have to purchase in bulk (70 piece set) to >get an electrode/tip set of consumables under $6. > >The salesman cautioned that the consumables for the >AG60 gun were not common, and, other than him, >he did not know anyone in Canada who sells the >consumables. He suggested they might be purchased >on the internet. > >Sears had a webpage (found via google >"ag60 plasma consumables" but it auto-forwards) for >consumables for the AG60, and it seemed to go with a >product they used to sell: > >http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM3033500602P?prdNo=7&blockNo=7&blockType=G7 > >The same product (?) is available from Simadre: > >http://www.simadrestore.com/sipiarc50amd.html > >Simadre plasma cutter. Its consumables seem to >be similar: > >http://www.simadrestore.com/sihiqucowsws.html > >And not a bad price, and they are located in California. >I would confirm all of this before considering a purchase. > >The salesman at Everlast suggested that for the other >models he sells (which cost more) they use consumables >that are more widely available including he believed at >Fastenall and Princess Auto -- unverified. > >I would ask, has anyone actually used the SuperCut 50P? > >Does anyone have any guess as to how many tips and >electrodes one might go through cutting out a Brent >boat ? (Just as a standard measure of a big job.) > >Does anyone have a comment about usage of >MOSFET-based inverter plasma cutters vs. IGBT-based >inverter plasma cutters? Failures? Quality of Cut? >Performance? > >Matt > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28035|26545|2012-04-19 07:34:11|Matt Malone|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Thank you Wild, that is very interesting from an engineering point of view, however, I was looking more for practical, "I have tried both and..." stories. I guess it comes down to how well the unit is designed, either may be sufficient, but it looks like the IGBT might have the advantage in making to good welder easier to design. Therefore, cheap IGBT units might be superior to cheap MOSFET units. It is the negative temperature coefficient (read sudden burnout) of the IGBTs that made me wonder. So I was looking for stories of units in the field. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:38:31 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) Thanks Kim and Matt! I did not pay attention about difference between MOSFET and IGBT before... Typical IGBT applications include: � Motor control: Frequency <20kHz, short circuit/in-rush limit protection � Uninterruptible power supply (UPS): Constant load, typically low frequency � Welding: High average current, low frequency (<50kHz), ZVS circuitry � Low-power lighting: Low frequency (<100kHz) MOSFETs are preferred in: � High frequency applications (>200kHz) � Wide line or load variations � Long duty cycles � Low-voltage applications (<250V) � < 500W output power Reasonably simple source: http://www.irf.com/technical-info/whitepaper/choosewisely.pdf Very Technical: http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/IFX+-+AN_18+-+Differences+Between+MOSFET+and+IGBT.pdf?folderId=db3a30431c69a49d011c6f86019b00a1&fileId=db3a304320896aa201208a819a5f0003 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > Does anyone have a comment about usage of > MOSFET-based inverter plasma cutters vs. IGBT-based > inverter plasma cutters? Failures? Quality of Cut? > Performance? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28036|26545|2012-04-19 12:49:42|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|From practical point of view, it is better to buy used (preferably with some warranty left) brand-name unit that most welding shops use ;) (Miller, Lincoln, Thermadyne, Hobart). OR... respected seller with good reviews for warranty. According to users' opinions, Lincoln is preferred brand for inverters. But it comes with higher price... Anything else is a gamble. Example: I found unit on US eBay similar to Kim's link. Unit has slightly different specs. The post even has link to manufacturer's website. Problem: It has only MANUFACTURER's warranty (China). Manufacturer's web-site has TONS of different units (only specs, no manuals, no word on warranty). I suspect, most cheap units are made from surplus/discontinued parts (small batches), which means unique design for each model. That why it is hard to find the same unit/model on eBay later. So, it would be hard (for cheap eBay units) to compare and make your choice only based on what other people have. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > I guess it comes down to how well the unit is designed, either > may be sufficient, but it looks like the IGBT might have the > advantage in making to good welder easier to design. > Therefore, cheap IGBT units might be superior to cheap > MOSFET units. It is the negative temperature coefficient > (read sudden burnout) of the IGBTs that made me wonder. > > So I was looking for stories of units in the field. > > Matt | 28037|26545|2012-04-19 20:03:58|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Correction: Miller is preferred brand for inverters according welding equipment repair technicians. Sorry, I often mix these 2 brands for some reason when I type. Does anybody knows what company designs and makes inverter units for Miller? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > According to users' opinions, Lincoln is preferred brand for inverters. > | 28038|28038|2012-04-19 20:23:08|JOHN|build location|Is there a Brent boat being built in Anchorage, AK. I would like to visit if agreeable. Thanks, John, cell phone 907-441-8606, e-mail jhwaalkes@...| 28039|28039|2012-04-21 13:24:44|chris123|Engine specs|Jusr wondering about engine specs and options for a standard brent boat at 32 or 36 ft? ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28040|26545|2012-04-21 13:55:37|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|God Man! Get on with it! Are you going to build a boat or not? Shit or get off the pot! James  --- On Thu, 4/19/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, April 19, 2012, 12:49 PM   From practical point of view, it is better to buy used (preferably with some warranty left) brand-name unit that most welding shops use ;) (Miller, Lincoln, Thermadyne, Hobart). OR... respected seller with good reviews for warranty. According to users' opinions, Lincoln is preferred brand for inverters. But it comes with higher price... Anything else is a gamble. Example: I found unit on US eBay similar to Kim's link. Unit has slightly different specs. The post even has link to manufacturer's website. Problem: It has only MANUFACTURER's warranty (China). Manufacturer's web-site has TONS of different units (only specs, no manuals, no word on warranty). I suspect, most cheap units are made from surplus/discontinued parts (small batches), which means unique design for each model. That why it is hard to find the same unit/model on eBay later. So, it would be hard (for cheap eBay units) to compare and make your choice only based on what other people have. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > I guess it comes down to how well the unit is designed, either > may be sufficient, but it looks like the IGBT might have the > advantage in making to good welder easier to design. > Therefore, cheap IGBT units might be superior to cheap > MOSFET units. It is the negative temperature coefficient > (read sudden burnout) of the IGBTs that made me wonder. > > So I was looking for stories of units in the field. > > Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28041|28039|2012-04-21 18:00:17|brentswain38|Re: Engine specs|The 31 and 36 have used everything from a ten HP air cooled diesel to outboard on a bracket, to a 50 HP Isuzu. Al have their pros and cons. The first 36 I did did a trip to Mexico and back with a 10 HP which I eventually put in my 31 and used for 14 years. I switched to a much heavier 22 hp. If I were buying anew diesel for my 31 I would go for a 9 HP. The 36 is big enough to use a small automotive diesel, which are cheap everywhere, used. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Jusr wondering about engine specs and options for a standard brent boat at > 32 or 36 ft? > > ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28042|28039|2012-04-21 20:12:13|chris123|Re: Engine specs|So a 2QM15 with a 2:1 trani would do with a good matched 3 blade. On Apr 21, 2012 6:00 PM, "brentswain38" wrote: > ** > > > The 31 and 36 have used everything from a ten HP air cooled diesel to > outboard on a bracket, to a 50 HP Isuzu. Al have their pros and cons. The > first 36 I did did a trip to Mexico and back with a 10 HP which I > eventually put in my 31 and used for 14 years. I switched to a much heavier > 22 hp. If I were buying anew diesel for my 31 I would go for a 9 HP. > The 36 is big enough to use a small automotive diesel, which are cheap > everywhere, used. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > wrote: > > > > Jusr wondering about engine specs and options for a standard brent boat > at > > 32 or 36 ft? > > > > ch > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28043|28039|2012-04-21 21:03:16|Paul Wilson|Re: Engine specs|There will be those who disagree but I think that is kind of small for the 36. It depends a lot on how you are going to use your engine. I think if you ever want to punch it to some wind or waves you will want a bigger engine than 15 hp. If you have a fridge and want to use a large alternator that will use up about 3 hp. I have a 35 horse Isuzu (3KR1) in my 36 and have a 100 amp alternator. I am not shy on motoring when needed so for me, it is just about right. I was told by an old timer to ignore the hp advertised and look at the displacement of the engine and the torque curve when making comparisons. Yanmars are good engines but they give an advertised hp reading at high rpms that will seldom be used. Cheers, Paul On 22/04/2012 12:12 p.m., chris123 wrote: > So a 2QM15 with a 2:1 trani would do with a good matched 3 blade. > | 28044|28039|2012-04-22 06:50:29|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Engine specs|In general the leisure Yachtie tends to the bigger engine, while we found the bigger ones die with particularly less hours than the smaller ones on the same type of boat. The reason might be that usually a diesel engine does not like general usage in little more than idling mode at all. You mustn't force Diesels to permanent high revs either, but heavily working at torque peak will be way better for Your engine than all time pootling around in "delicates" mode ... The smaller engine probably even pays for two more solar panels to feed fridge'n'telly . Am 22.04.2012 um 03:03 schrieb Paul Wilson: > There will be those who disagree but I think that is kind of small for > the 36. It depends a lot on how you are going to use your engine. I > think if you ever want to punch it to some wind or waves you will want a > bigger engine than 15 hp. If you have a fridge and want to use a large > alternator that will use up about 3 hp. > > I have a 35 horse Isuzu (3KR1) in my 36 and have a 100 amp alternator. > I am not shy on motoring when needed so for me, it is just about right. > > I was told by an old timer to ignore the hp advertised and look at the > displacement of the engine and the torque curve when making > comparisons. Yanmars are good engines but they give an advertised hp > reading at high rpms that will seldom be used. > > Cheers, Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28045|28039|2012-04-22 12:33:19|haidan|Re: Engine specs|I had a 22hp 3cyl yanmar in my 36 and it would push it at about 5-6 knots in calm water but it really would struggle going into any wind over 20 knots, big waves would stop it dead and I would have to motor sail with the main and the engine (tacking) a couple times when I tore my jib up. Really the yanmar was a 15hp motor at usable rpms. I had to ride back and use the momentum a couple times to set my anchor as there just wasn't enough force to dig it in properly. Now that I got these 50 Isuzu ponies I have yet to have any trouble motoring into current or wind (and I have yet to change props) but I haven't had much chance to test it out, I did go through ten mile point at full ebb which is about 4 knots or so and other than that fact that the land was passing by much more slowly you could hardly tell, the yanmar would never of done that. I'd aim for something in the 30-40 horse range is all you'd ever need. I would pay attention to the displacement of the engines rather than the hp rating. My old Yanmar was 0.874 liters, the isuzu c240 that Silas Crosby and I have is 2.4 liters and the 4LE2 that MOM and Darmi have is 2.2 liters. I don't imagine that the difference in efficiency is too great between engines, you burn X amount of fuel/air per stroke you get X of energy to push you. Efficiency is probably more reliant on how you use it via the reduction/prop| 28046|28039|2012-04-22 16:11:58|Paul Wilson|Re: Engine specs|I had a look and my 35 hp Isuzu 3KR1 is 89.3 cubic inch or 1.46 liter. Paul On 23/04/2012 4:33 a.m., haidan wrote: > > I had a 22hp 3cyl yanmar in my 36 and it would push it at about 5-6 > knots in calm water but it really would struggle going into any wind > over 20 knots, big waves would stop it dead and I would have to motor > sail with the main and the engine (tacking) a couple times when I tore > my jib up. Really the yanmar was a 15hp motor at usable rpms. I had to > ride back and use the momentum a couple times to set my anchor as > there just wasn't enough force to dig it in properly. Now that I got > these 50 Isuzu ponies I have yet to have any trouble motoring into > current or wind (and I have yet to change props) but I haven't had > much chance to test it out, I did go through ten mile point at full > ebb which is about 4 knots or so and other than that fact that the > land was passing by much more slowly you could hardly tell, the yanmar > would never of done that. I'd aim for something in the 30-40 horse > range is all you'd ever need. I would pay attention to the > displacement of the engines rather than the hp rating. > My old Yanmar was 0.874 liters, the isuzu c240 that Silas Crosby and I > have is 2.4 liters and the 4LE2 that MOM and Darmi have is 2.2 liters. > I don't imagine that the difference in efficiency is too great between > engines, you burn X amount of fuel/air per stroke you get X of energy > to push you. Efficiency is probably more reliant on how you use it via > the reduction/prop > > | 28047|28039|2012-04-22 17:23:44|jason ball|Re: Engine specs|good post haidan! what size prop do you have? thanks. jason --- On Sun, 22/4/12, haidan wrote: From: haidan Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Engine specs To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 22 April, 2012, 17:33   I had a 22hp 3cyl yanmar in my 36 and it would push it at about 5-6 knots in calm water but it really would struggle going into any wind over 20 knots, big waves would stop it dead and I would have to motor sail with the main and the engine (tacking) a couple times when I tore my jib up. Really the yanmar was a 15hp motor at usable rpms. I had to ride back and use the momentum a couple times to set my anchor as there just wasn't enough force to dig it in properly. Now that I got these 50 Isuzu ponies I have yet to have any trouble motoring into current or wind (and I have yet to change props) but I haven't had much chance to test it out, I did go through ten mile point at full ebb which is about 4 knots or so and other than that fact that the land was passing by much more slowly you could hardly tell, the yanmar would never of done that. I'd aim for something in the 30-40 horse range is all you'd ever need. I would pay attention to the displacement of the engines rather than the hp rating. My old Yanmar was 0.874 liters, the isuzu c240 that Silas Crosby and I have is 2.4 liters and the 4LE2 that MOM and Darmi have is 2.2 liters. I don't imagine that the difference in efficiency is too great between engines, you burn X amount of fuel/air per stroke you get X of energy to push you. Efficiency is probably more reliant on how you use it via the reduction/prop [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28048|28039|2012-04-24 16:26:34|brentswain38|Re: Engine specs|My last boat ,a 29 footer, had a 4 hp engine in. It wouldn't push against much of anything, but when I combined it with the mainsail, it would push against almost anything. The combination of engine and motor has far more push than the simple combined hp of the two. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > I had a 22hp 3cyl yanmar in my 36 and it would push it at about 5-6 knots in calm water but it really would struggle going into any wind over 20 knots, big waves would stop it dead and I would have to motor sail with the main and the engine (tacking) a couple times when I tore my jib up. Really the yanmar was a 15hp motor at usable rpms. I had to ride back and use the momentum a couple times to set my anchor as there just wasn't enough force to dig it in properly. Now that I got these 50 Isuzu ponies I have yet to have any trouble motoring into current or wind (and I have yet to change props) but I haven't had much chance to test it out, I did go through ten mile point at full ebb which is about 4 knots or so and other than that fact that the land was passing by much more slowly you could hardly tell, the yanmar would never of done that. I'd aim for something in the 30-40 horse range is all you'd ever need. I would pay attention to the displacement of the engines rather than the hp rating. > My old Yanmar was 0.874 liters, the isuzu c240 that Silas Crosby and I have is 2.4 liters and the 4LE2 that MOM and Darmi have is 2.2 liters. I don't imagine that the difference in efficiency is too great between engines, you burn X amount of fuel/air per stroke you get X of energy to push you. Efficiency is probably more reliant on how you use it via the reduction/prop > | 28049|28039|2012-04-25 00:49:05|Matt Malone|Re: Engine specs|Brent, I was amazed by this effect also. I think it has to do with the induced drag of the hull's leeway through the water. Without the engine, the hull must produce the side-force needed to cancel the side force (non-productive force) produced by the sail. The forward force of the sail of course moves the boat forward through the water. The sail alone only moves the boat through the water so fast. To see the key to this, one has to change their perspective, and think of the boat hull like a wing. Look down on the boat hull and it looks like a stubby wing protruding into the water. The side force on the hull is like the lift for a wing. If the speed is slow and the total force = lift coefficient * 1/2 * water density * velocity ^2, then the lift coefficient must be large to get the same force at a low speed. One gets a large lift coefficient at a high angle of attack on a wing, or a high angle of leeway on a boat. Now this is where it gets a little fuzzy, but, for all aero/hydrodynamic wing-like shapes I have seen so far, the drag coefficient on a wing increases with the lift coefficient squared. The total drag on the boat is the drag coefficient * 1/2 * density of water * velocity ^2. All of these factors are linked and, there is no one solution, it depends how you got to a particular state to determine the final state, the stable forward speed. In sailing terms, if one is in irons, and heads off the wind a bit and sets the sails close-hauled, one will accelerate a bit and come to a speed, and stabilize, but that speed is slow. If one first heads off a lot, and eases the sail a little toward a reach, and gets up speed and comes back up close-hauled on the wind to the same heading, one can stabilize at a higher speed. Mathematically, it is the result of all those non-linearities. Even a small engine such as 4 hp can make a tremendous difference in the balance between the forces and the final speed of the boat. The biggest clue is, look at the sail and hold the sheet by hand. With the engine off, sure it is pulling, but put the engine on, gain a little bit more forward speed and suddenly the forces generated by the sail will go up a lot -- by a factor of the fractional speed increase squared. If you hold the sheet by hand, you will feel the sail suddenly start pulling a lot harder. This pushes up the boat speed even more, and the sail will pull harder yet. This increase in boat speed means that a smaller side-force coefficient for the hull on the water will provide an adequate counter-balance for the side force of the air going over the sail. Less side force coefficient for the hull means a smaller leeway angle, and with a smaller leeway angle, a smaller drag coefficient for the boat. Yes, the speed is higher, and the total drag is the drag coefficient * 1/2 * density of water * velocity ^2, but be have gained so much on the sail thrust that the speed can be much higher before all the forces come into equilibrium again and the boat stops accelerating, and settles in to a steady speed, steady state. I found my (coincidentally) 4 hp engine would sometimes go to high revs because the boat would accelerate up to near-planing speed on certain angles to the wind, under some conditions. Engine on, boat accelerates, the sheets really start to pull hard, the engine revs and the boat starts to approach planing speed: This can all be very unexpected from a small input of engine hp. There is no way my little 4 hp could do anything like that on its own, and it takes 25 knots of wind or more for the sails to do that on my boat on most tacks, yet at 10-15 knots, with the engine, the boat is flying. The problem is, that boat's hull is not a full planing hull. It climbs up a bit, yes, but it mushes, it pushes a huge bow wave and, it never gets fully on a plane. When mushing like this, the center of force on the hull moves forward and the boat gets very tender, harder to control. (Once, heading downwind in 30 knots, a moment's inattention was all it took and she broached throwing everything in the starboard side of the cabin into a pile up against the port side. The transition was very fast.) Why motor sail ? 10-15 knots is plenty of wind, the only reason to motor sail in such a wind is when the wind's direction is poor and one is constrained in what direction one can head, like in a channel between islands or something. Because the results of adding engine hp are so non-linear and the results quite unexpected some times, I recommend slowly increasing the throttle when deciding to start motor-sailing. I ripped my main about 30 seconds into starting to motor-sail close-hauled up a channel in brisk winds, that is how hard the sail suddenly pulling from the increase in speed. Half throttle (on a 4 hp engine!) has always seemed enough to make a huge difference for my 2-ton/23 foot boat, and the motor will not over-rev in gusts. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 20:26:29 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Engine specs My last boat ,a 29 footer, had a 4 hp engine in. It wouldn't push against much of anything, but when I combined it with the mainsail, it would push against almost anything. The combination of engine and motor has far more push than the simple combined hp of the two. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28052|26545|2012-04-29 01:27:08|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Home Depot has portable 240V 200A (IGBT) DC welder on sale for ~ $210 with 3 years warranty and 90 days return. http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Power-Tools-Welding/h_d1/N-ash5Z5yc1v/R-203132721/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051 P.S. Used 240V ~200A buzz-box cost about $150.| 28053|26545|2012-04-29 07:53:59|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|It looks like Home Depot has thrown there lable on a Chines machine? I have used this type of welder and they work great. Is it a 3 year repair warranty? --- On Sun, 4/29/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 1:27 AM   Home Depot has portable 240V 200A (IGBT) DC welder on sale for ~ $210 with 3 years warranty and 90 days return. http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Power-Tools-Welding/h_d1/N-ash5Z5yc1v/R-203132721/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051 P.S. Used 240V ~200A buzz-box cost about $150. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28054|28054|2012-04-29 08:41:27|mauro gonzaga|hi|this is crazy you should give it a look http://t.co/jWB6lFYz ~*Advertisement| 28055|28054|2012-04-29 08:50:40|martin demers|Re: hi -SPAM|If it were true, we would all be doing it...lol It seems someone is using our e-mail addresses fot spam Martin To: blogservice@... From: maurogonzaga1940@... Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:41:25 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] hi this is crazy you should give it a look http://t.co/jWB6lFYz ~*Advertisement [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28056|26545|2012-04-29 08:51:26|martin demers|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Available in Canada???? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 04:53:57 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) It looks like Home Depot has thrown there lable on a Chines machine? I have used this type of welder and they work great. Is it a 3 year repair warranty? --- On Sun, 4/29/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 1:27 AM Home Depot has portable 240V 200A (IGBT) DC welder on sale for ~ $210 with 3 years warranty and 90 days return. http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Power-Tools-Welding/h_d1/N-ash5Z5yc1v/R-203132721/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051 P.S. Used 240V ~200A buzz-box cost about $150. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28057|28054|2012-04-29 09:34:49|mauro gonzaga|Re: hi -SPAM|Sorry, apparently my address was used. I received this message in our forum and my antivirus refused to open the file but apparently it could spread. Hope no damage. Regards. Mauro ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 2:50 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] hi -SPAM If it were true, we would all be doing it...lol It seems someone is using our e-mail addresses fot spam Martin To: blogservice@... From: maurogonzaga1940@... Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:41:25 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] hi                         this is crazy you should give it a look http://t.co/jWB6lFYz ~*Advertisement                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28058|26545|2012-04-29 15:26:44|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Yep, this one is from Chinese manufacturer (HD did not change label). http://www.smarter-welding.com/S-160-S-200-p-2.html Just ordered one from HD (available online only). Home Depot confirmed that this welder has 3 years manufacturer's warranty for US. I will check how warranty is handled later (need to cal US office). With 90 days return policy and reasonable price, I give it a try. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > It looks like Home Depot has thrown there lable on a Chines machine? I have used this type of welder and they work great. Is it a 3 year repair warranty? > | 28059|26545|2012-04-29 16:49:12|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I have a Chines plasma cutter, a cut 40. I have had it for 5 years and it has been very good. One time it gave out on me I was able to bring it back and get a loner for a week to get my work done. Repair cost was $50.00. The loner I was given was a plasma/tig/stick. I tried the stick and it worked great but was mostly plasma cutting. A friend of mine has a 90 amp thermo dynamics stick welder. It is a 110 volt inverter and I had a chance to use it yesterday. I burned 3/32 7014 and 6010 no problem, then we tried 1/8 6011, a little sticky to start at 85 amps but once started burned them with good penetration. I have a 80 amp 110 volt buzz box's from Canadian Tire and it is very tricky to light a 3/32 7014 with. but I paid $65 for it new and I was able to use it to tack together some work on site so I could take it home to weld up solid. But I think I might give it to one of the kids in the neighbourhood and get a little 110/220 volt inverter. Good luck with the new welder, let use know how it works. James     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28060|28060|2012-04-29 18:07:02|Ted|Tiller pilot question|What tiller pilot would folks recommend for use with the trim tab on a BS 36? in the UK Simrad and Raymarine are the two most readily available makes. Simrad state their models to suit various boat lengths and Raymarine state laden displacement. What have folk used? Thanks and best regards, Ted| 28061|28060|2012-04-29 18:57:51|john dean|Re: Tiller pilot question|I would use the smallest one available keeping in mind the device will be very unhappy if even a gallon of salt water is poured on it.  You might pretend that you own one and call the vendors inquiring about service etc. --- On Sun, 4/29/12, Ted wrote: From: Ted Subject: [origamiboats] Tiller pilot question To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 6:06 PM What tiller pilot would folks recommend for use with the trim tab on a BS 36?  in the UK Simrad and Raymarine are the two most readily available makes.  Simrad state their models to suit various boat lengths and Raymarine state laden displacement.  What have folk used? Thanks and best regards, Ted ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28062|26545|2012-04-29 20:04:46|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|The Home Depot 220 volt unit looks good  BUT I want to just weld zincs on to the steel hull, will this (or similar) work well for that ...... http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-premium-bzzd-100amp-110v-100-AMP-ARC-WELDING-MACHINE-WELDER-ACCESSORIES-/110869982434?pt=BI_Welding_Supplies&hash=item19d05dace2#ht_1054wt_1037 ----- Original Message ----- From: James Pronk Date: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:54 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > It looks like Home Depot has thrown there lable on a Chines > machine? I have used this type of welder and they work great. Is > it a 3 year repair warranty? > > --- On Sun, 4/29/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing > Welding Equipment) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 1:27 AM > > > >   > > > > Home Depot has portable 240V 200A (IGBT) DC welder on sale for ~ > $210 with 3 years warranty and 90 days return. > > http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Power-Tools- > Welding/h_d1/N-ash5Z5yc1v/R- > 203132721/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051 > > P.S. Used 240V ~200A buzz-box cost about $150. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28063|26545|2012-04-29 20:42:08|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Thermal Arc is about to release Fabricator 211i (in June for US market). It is already available in UK. It is a dual-voltage 110/230VAC Stick/MIG/TIG portable inverter (professional grade) unit which accepts industrial size spool for MIG (GMAW/FCAW). Based on price in UK, I suspect the price in US would be around $1200. Miller will release similar unit. Competition is very high now for inverter's market (which is good for users) Hopefully, this cheap HD inverter will work just fine for boat's project. It should even handle 1/8" E7024 ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > I have a 80 amp 110 volt buzz box's from Canadian Tire and it is very tricky to light a 3/32 7014 with. but I paid $65 for it new and I was able to use it to tack together some work on site so I could take it home to weld up solid. But I think I might give it to one of the kids in the neighbourhood and get a little 110/220 volt inverter. > Good luck with the new welder, let use know how it works. > James | 28064|28060|2012-04-29 21:25:38|Paul Wilson|Re: Tiller pilot question|If it is only pushing the trim tab the smallest one of any model will do so I would just look for the best deal. I have used a Navico (now Simrad) for over 20 years but have had to repair water damage a few times. The newer models are better at keeping the water out with better sealing of the circuit boards. If you really want it to last, I would keep it in a plastic bag, even when you are using it. I think Brent and a few others have run theirs down below via a shift cable to the tab. Cheers, Paul On 30/04/2012 10:06 a.m., Ted wrote: > > What tiller pilot would folks recommend for use with the trim tab on a > BS 36? in the UK Simrad and Raymarine are the two most readily > available makes. Simrad state their models to suit various boat > lengths and Raymarine state laden displacement. What have folk used? > > Thanks and best regards, > > Ted > > | 28065|26545|2012-04-30 16:30:31|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|Brent and All, is there any reason not to use E6013 (Fleetweld 37) instead of E6011 (Fleetweld 35) beside the difference in needed amperage? 1/8 E6013 (100-135A DC) 1/8 E6011 (70-110A DC) Fleetweld 37 is certified by ABS, Lloyd's Register, DNV, GL, BV Fleetweld 35 is certified by ABS, Lloyd's Register I did not try E6013, so I am looking for some comments on welding difference between these electrodes. Notes: Fleetweld 37 - Irregular short welds that change positions, for use with small AC welders with low OCV| 28066|26545|2012-04-30 16:43:38|akenai@yahoo.com|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|6013 welds about the same as 7018 so it will be much slower than 6010 / 6011 Sent from my Alaska Communications Android -----Original message----- From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Apr 30, 2012 20:30:35 GMT+00:00 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables) Brent and All, is there any reason not to use E6013 (Fleetweld 37) instead of E6011 (Fleetweld 35) beside the difference in needed amperage? 1/8 E6013 (100-135A DC) 1/8 E6011 (70-110A DC) Fleetweld 37 is certified by ABS, Lloyd's Register, DNV, GL, BV Fleetweld 35 is certified by ABS, Lloyd's Register I did not try E6013, so I am looking for some comments on welding difference between these electrodes. Notes: Fleetweld 37 - Irregular short welds that change positions, for use with small AC welders with low OCV [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28067|26545|2012-04-30 17:33:51|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|6013 is a great rod, easy to weld with and all position. It is a far smoother weld than 6011, so makes it easier to see pinholes in tank welds. It is less forgiving in moisture, and needs a cleaner surface than 6011. It also penetrates far less. 6010 is a DC rod , doesn't work well on AC. 6011 is both a dc and ac rod. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent and All, is there any reason not to use E6013 (Fleetweld 37) instead of E6011 (Fleetweld 35) beside the difference in needed amperage? > > 1/8 E6013 (100-135A DC) > 1/8 E6011 (70-110A DC) > > Fleetweld 37 is certified by ABS, Lloyd's Register, DNV, GL, BV > Fleetweld 35 is certified by ABS, Lloyd's Register > > I did not try E6013, so I am looking for some comments on welding difference between these electrodes. > > Notes: Fleetweld 37 - Irregular short welds that change positions, for use with small AC welders with low OCV > | 28068|28060|2012-04-30 17:37:23|brentswain38|Re: Tiller pilot question|I've used an autohelm 800 since 1992, no problem. I have heard a Navico doesn't work all that well in a steel boat, no problem with the autohelm. One 36 even had one alongside the wheelhouse side, less than 6 inches away from the steel cabin side, and it still works well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > If it is only pushing the trim tab the smallest one of any model will do > so I would just look for the best deal. I have used a Navico (now > Simrad) for over 20 years but have had to repair water damage a few > times. The newer models are better at keeping the water out with better > sealing of the circuit boards. If you really want it to last, I would > keep it in a plastic bag, even when you are using it. > > I think Brent and a few others have run theirs down below via a shift > cable to the tab. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 30/04/2012 10:06 a.m., Ted wrote: > > > > What tiller pilot would folks recommend for use with the trim tab on a > > BS 36? in the UK Simrad and Raymarine are the two most readily > > available makes. Simrad state their models to suit various boat > > lengths and Raymarine state laden displacement. What have folk used? > > > > Thanks and best regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > | 28069|28054|2012-04-30 17:40:27|brentswain38|Re: hi -SPAM|They found your password. I wonder if simply changing your password may solve th problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Sorry, apparently my address was used. I received this message in our forum and my antivirus refused to open the file but apparently it could spread. Hope no damage. > Regards. > Mauro > > > > ________________________________ > From: martin demers > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 2:50 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] hi -SPAM > > If it were true, we would all be doing it...lol > > It seems someone is using our e-mail addresses fot spam > > Martin > > To: blogservice@... > From: maurogonzaga1940@... > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:41:25 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] hi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � > > > � � > � � � > � � � > � � � > > this is crazy you should give it a look http://t.co/jWB6lFYz > > > > ~*Advertisement > > > > > � � > � � > > � � > � � > > > > > > > � > > > > > > > ��� ��� ��� � ��� ��� � > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:� origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28070|28060|2012-04-30 17:58:19|Paul Wilson|Re: Tiller pilot question|On 1/05/2012 9:37 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > I've used an autohelm 800 since 1992, no problem. I have heard a > Navico doesn't work all that well in a steel boat, no problem with the > autohelm. One 36 even had one alongside the wheelhouse side, less than > 6 inches away from the steel cabin side, and it still works well. Good to know. I have been reluctant to move my autopilot inside. I had to move my Navico further away from the transom to get it to work better. When Navicos first came out they used Hall effect transistors instead of a flux gate compass as a sensor and were terrible. My (1992?) Navico has the same basic sensor inside as the autohelm so it would be interesting to see if there was any difference in how they steered. I suspect if it was different it must be because of the software. Cheers, Paul| 28071|26545|2012-04-30 20:14:33|Kim|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|Hi Wild ... In my boat *ALL* the mild steel welding has been done using 6013 rods. No apparent problems so far. For example: sometimes welds can crack as the hull halves are being pulled together; but nothing like that happened to me. They're certainly very easy rods to use. The main reason I'm using 6013 is that where I live (Australia), 6013 is by far the cheapest and most common rod. All other types are rare and expensive. I believe that is also true for the UK. Cheers ... Kim. ___________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent and All, is there any reason not to use E6013 (Fleetweld 37) instead of E6011 (Fleetweld 35) beside the difference in needed amperage? > > 1/8 E6013 (100-135A DC) > 1/8 E6011 (70-110A DC) > > Fleetweld 37 is certified by ABS, Lloyd's Register, DNV, GL, BV > Fleetweld 35 is certified by ABS, Lloyd's Register > > I did not try E6013, so I am looking for some comments on welding difference between these electrodes. > > Notes: Fleetweld 37 - Irregular short welds that change positions, for use with small AC welders with low OCV ___________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 6013 is a great rod, easy to weld with and all position. It is a far smoother weld than 6011, so makes it easier to see pinholes in tank welds. It is less forgiving in moisture, and needs a cleaner surface than 6011. It also penetrates far less. > 6010 is a DC rod , doesn't work well on AC. 6011 is both a dc and ac rod. ___________________________________________________ | 28072|28060|2012-05-01 07:26:17|scott|Re: Tiller pilot question|I have had a TP32 from simrad and it is a very nice tiller pilot. Built for bigger boats it is very strong and has follow a gps track or sail to wind capabilities if you have a chart plotter and or a wind instrument. Mine came with a long wired remote also as standard equipment. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ted" wrote: > > What tiller pilot would folks recommend for use with the trim tab on a BS 36? in the UK Simrad and Raymarine are the two most readily available makes. Simrad state their models to suit various boat lengths and Raymarine state laden displacement. What have folk used? > > Thanks and best regards, > > Ted > | 28073|28060|2012-05-01 07:30:37|scott|Re: Tiller pilot question|Come to think about it my tp32 simrad did exhibit weird effects when I motored a few feet away from a steel ship one day. So I think the compass in it is a bit sensitive to ferrous metals. I would call simrad and talk to them. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > On 1/05/2012 9:37 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > I've used an autohelm 800 since 1992, no problem. I have heard a > > Navico doesn't work all that well in a steel boat, no problem with the > > autohelm. One 36 even had one alongside the wheelhouse side, less than > > 6 inches away from the steel cabin side, and it still works well. > > Good to know. I have been reluctant to move my autopilot inside. I had > to move my Navico further away from the transom to get it to work > better. When Navicos first came out they used Hall effect transistors > instead of a flux gate compass as a sensor and were terrible. My > (1992?) Navico has the same basic sensor inside as the autohelm so it > would be interesting to see if there was any difference in how they > steered. I suspect if it was different it must be because of the software. > > Cheers, Paul > | 28074|26545|2012-05-01 20:27:12|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|Thanks Brent, Akenai, Kim. I really need to shop around... I call several suppliers, and even the same company, but different offices have different prices. I checked online prices (including delivery) as well. I use stock # for electrodes, so I know it is the same product. Prices fluctuate in wide range. Some places have E7018 cheaper than E6011, E6013 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > The main reason I'm using 6013 is that where I live (Australia), 6013 is by far the cheapest and most common rod. All other types are rare and expensive. I believe that is also true for the UK. > | 28075|26545|2012-05-01 20:41:01|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|6013 rod was developed for use on DC- for sheet metal work. It is very easy to strike an arc with, it is easy to burn and leaves a nice weld bead. On DC+ it will give you a medium penetrating weld but will not burn through rust, paint and mill scale like 6011. 6011 is a deep penetrating electrode. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28076|26545|2012-05-01 20:51:19|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|I am using 6011 because I came apone cases of it that has been sitting since the 80's and no one wanted it! No one liked the look of the welds? I did some bend tests with the stuff and it all pased. I could send you some to try if you are not to far away Wild? James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28077|26545|2012-05-03 15:23:26|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|Thanks James for additional information on E6013 and your generous offer. The shipping is THE KILLER. I found some reasonably priced electrodes online, but with the shipping, it came almost to the price of local suppliers. So far, E6013 & E7018MR in my area is cheaper than E6011 for some reason. I suspect it is because of quantity discount for a supplier from manufacturer. Note: If you see very low price online, verify the price over the phone AND e-mail. I found DIRT CHEAP electrodes, but it was INCORRECT price on 2 web-sites. One web-site is correcting the price, another one still cheating people. Best price I missed last time was a true price ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I am using 6011 because I came apone cases of it that has been sitting since the 80's and no one wanted it! > I could send you some to try if you are not to far away Wild? > James | 28078|28060|2012-05-04 07:25:55|Ted|Re: Tiller pilot question|Thanks for your replies and information gentlemen, I was setting it up to have the tiller pilot drive inside, driving a shaft through the transom to a linkage to the trim tab. A steering cable from pilot to trim tab might make it easier to site the pilot further away from the steel. I have an old steering cable that might do. I will check it out. Best regards, Ted| 28079|28060|2012-05-04 17:39:41|brentswain38|Re: Tiller pilot question|It's always good to get them below decks ,out of the weather. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > On 1/05/2012 9:37 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > I've used an autohelm 800 since 1992, no problem. I have heard a > > Navico doesn't work all that well in a steel boat, no problem with the > > autohelm. One 36 even had one alongside the wheelhouse side, less than > > 6 inches away from the steel cabin side, and it still works well. > > Good to know. I have been reluctant to move my autopilot inside. I had > to move my Navico further away from the transom to get it to work > better. When Navicos first came out they used Hall effect transistors > instead of a flux gate compass as a sensor and were terrible. My > (1992?) Navico has the same basic sensor inside as the autohelm so it > would be interesting to see if there was any difference in how they > steered. I suspect if it was different it must be because of the software. > > Cheers, Paul > | 28080|28060|2012-05-04 17:41:09|brentswain38|Re: Tiller pilot question|Control cables tend to corrode and seize up. a solid ss rod linkage has no such problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ted" wrote: > > > > Thanks for your replies and information gentlemen, > > I was setting it up to have the tiller pilot drive inside, driving a shaft through the transom to a linkage to the trim tab. A steering cable from pilot to trim tab might make it easier to site the pilot further away from the steel. I have an old steering cable that might do. I will check it out. > > Best regards, > > Ted > | 28081|26545|2012-05-04 18:20:21|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|This is cheapest CERTIFIED electrode with FREE shipping in USA I could find. It is Excalibur 7018MR 1/8" ($1.68/Lb). Description is slightly different, but I checked manufacturer stock # (ED028281). http://www.wayfair.com/Lincoln-Electric-1-8-E7018-Lincoln%AE-Excalibur%99-7018-Carbon-Steel-Electrode-50-Easy-Open-Hermetically-Sealed-Can-ED028281-LCL1063.html| 28082|26545|2012-05-05 22:55:33|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Question about Oxygen-Propane setup. Will acetylene regulator fit into 17Lb BBQ LP tank's outlet or does it need special adapter? As I understand Acetylene regulator has CGA 510 male connector. Is it correct? Are 20-100 LP tanks have CGA 510 inside connector (outside Type1/QCC-1)? Other tips/suggestions on connecting/using regular Axy-Acetylene kits as Oxy-Propane setup?| 28083|26545|2012-05-06 08:07:24|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I do not know where you are from but here in Canada the acetylene regulator will screw right into the threads of the propane bottle. I just had three 5' x 10' sheets of 11gauge galvanized steel drooped off here at my house. Having most of the stainless work done I am going to build some bigger pieces. I was going to try my plasma cutter on the galvanized. Most people told me that plasma could only cut new clean metal, but all I ever cut is the rustiest stuff and it works great. I have cut thin galvanized but never anything this thick.  Lighting the torch is a bit tricky and adding the oxygen to the propane without the flame going out is a little hard but the little trick that Alex shows on the video works great! Good luck, James --- On Sat, 5/5/12, wild_explorer wrote:  Question about Oxygen-Propane setup. Will acetylene regulator fit into 17Lb BBQ LP tank's outlet or does it need special adapter? Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (289) Recent Activity: New Members 3 Visit Your Group To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28084|26545|2012-05-06 13:24:49|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I do not know where you are from but here in Canada the acetylene regulator will screw right into the threads of the propane bottle. > It is a good news. I am in USA and threads for regulator should be the same. > Lighting the torch is a bit tricky and adding the oxygen to the propane without the flame going out is a little hard but the little trick that Alex shows on the video works great! > Yep, the design for propane tip is different then for acetylene tip. The flame should go INSIDE propane tip. You need to rest propane tip against metal (about 45 deg) when adding oxygen. When you hear "pop" - the flame goes inside the tip and you can adjust the flame regular way. In our welding class we used propane for most cutting. Initial heating of the metal is a little bit slower, but after it, the cutting speed is as fast as with acetylene. P.S. I still thinking about plasma cutter and comparing the cost to oxy-propane setup. Plasma cutter needs compressor with about 65-75psi and airflow 3-6cfm (depends on plasma cutter). Not every compressor can handle 6cfm@75psi. Most cheap ones (<$200) deliver only about 1.5-3cfm@40psi. These days most compressors are "oil less". Regular ones (with oil) more expensive. Good used compressor (with oil) cost about the same as "good-enough" new one.| 28085|26545|2012-05-06 13:36:04|chris123|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|This one is in Brent's book. in the tips section. Got a copy of it last week. The short answer is yes according to the book....but I know nothing..:) Following this thread with great enjoyment and learning much. Well worth the money to get a copy especially if your going to build a boat, then again its well worth it even if your not going to build a boat. A very good read if your into metal boats. Enough information in there that applies to plastic vessels as well. Am I trying to market the book. Yuppers, but do that only for stuff that I really appreciate. /ch On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 10:55 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > ** > > > Question about Oxygen-Propane setup. > > Will acetylene regulator fit into 17Lb BBQ LP tank's outlet or does it > need special adapter? > > As I understand Acetylene regulator has CGA 510 male connector. Is it > correct? > > Are 20-100 LP tanks have CGA 510 inside connector (outside Type1/QCC-1)? > > Other tips/suggestions on connecting/using regular Axy-Acetylene kits as > Oxy-Propane setup? > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28086|28060|2012-05-06 14:09:56|Ted|Re: Tiller pilot question|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Control cables tend to corrode and seize up. a solid ss rod linkage has no such problem. > Thats true Brent. What do you use for the linkage joints. Ball joints or clevis joints? Best regards, Ted| 28087|26545|2012-05-06 17:08:17|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I knew I read it before... Let's see... Page 2, "Cutting torch" section. But it describes 20Lb bottle, I have 17Lb BBQ bottle. Hopefully they have the same outlet. P.S. Thanks for a reminder about information in Brent's book. I need to re-read pages 1-4 ("Tools" section). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > This one is in Brent's book. in the tips section. > > Got a copy of it last week. The short answer is yes according to the > book....but I know nothing..:) >> Will acetylene regulator fit into 17Lb BBQ LP tank's outlet or does >> it need special adapter? | 28088|26545|2012-05-07 14:18:57|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Any acetylene regulator I've seen is exactly the same as a propane fitting. No adapter needed. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I knew I read it before... Let's see... Page 2, "Cutting torch" section. But it describes 20Lb bottle, I have 17Lb BBQ bottle. Hopefully they have the same outlet. > > P.S. Thanks for a reminder about information in Brent's book. I need to re-read pages 1-4 ("Tools" section). > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > > > This one is in Brent's book. in the tips section. > > > > Got a copy of it last week. The short answer is yes according to the > > book....but I know nothing..:) > > >> Will acetylene regulator fit into 17Lb BBQ LP tank's outlet or does >> it need special adapter? > | 28089|28060|2012-05-07 14:19:50|brentswain38|Re: Tiller pilot question|I just use a stainless bolt thru a slightly oversized hole. No problem --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ted" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Control cables tend to corrode and seize up. a solid ss rod linkage has no such problem. > > > > > Thats true Brent. What do you use for the linkage joints. Ball joints or clevis joints? > > Best regards, > > Ted > | 28090|26545|2012-05-07 14:25:00|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I once built a 36 for a guy who's compressor was to small. He would race ahead of me with the plasma while I used the torch. Then he would run out of air, and wait for the compressor to catch up, while I passed him with the torch. Then he would trace ahead again ,till the air ran out. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > I do not know where you are from but here in Canada the acetylene regulator will screw right into the threads of the propane bottle. > > > > It is a good news. I am in USA and threads for regulator should be the same. > > > > Lighting the torch is a bit tricky and adding the oxygen to the propane without the flame going out is a little hard but the little trick that Alex shows on the video works great! > > > > Yep, the design for propane tip is different then for acetylene tip. The flame should go INSIDE propane tip. You need to rest propane tip against metal (about 45 deg) when adding oxygen. When you hear "pop" - the flame goes inside the tip and you can adjust the flame regular way. In our welding class we used propane for most cutting. Initial heating of the metal is a little bit slower, but after it, the cutting speed is as fast as with acetylene. > > P.S. I still thinking about plasma cutter and comparing the cost to oxy-propane setup. Plasma cutter needs compressor with about 65-75psi and airflow 3-6cfm (depends on plasma cutter). Not every compressor can handle 6cfm@75psi. Most cheap ones (<$200) deliver only about 1.5-3cfm@40psi. These days most compressors are "oil less". Regular ones (with oil) more expensive. Good used compressor (with oil) cost about the same as "good-enough" new one. > | 28091|28091|2012-05-08 12:55:19|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|Tool protection from corrosion|Do you have to protect your power tools from corrosion when at sea, like storing them in sealed plastic bags or plastic box? Martin| 28092|28091|2012-05-08 15:03:36|brentswain38|Re: Tool protection from corrosion|I haven't had to. In a steel boat , well sprayfoamed, things stay much drier than in other types of boats. Just make sure the locker you keep them in has no bare steel in it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Do you have to protect your power tools from corrosion when at sea, like storing them in sealed plastic bags or plastic box? > > Martin > | 28093|28093|2012-05-08 15:07:27|brentswain38|Propane tanks|If you stick to the type of propane tank which has a bleed screw in the valve, it makes it much easier to refill it from another tank. Just hook them together, put the full one on top, upside down, and the empty one on the bottom, right side up. Open both valves, then open the bleed screw until it begins to spit out liquid. Then close the bleed valve. Then the bottom tank is full.| 28094|28060|2012-05-08 17:14:05|Ted|Re: Tiller pilot question|Thanks Brent, --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just use a stainless bolt thru a slightly oversized hole. No problem > > | 28095|28091|2012-05-08 23:33:05|martin demers|Re: Tool protection from corrosion|Ok thanks To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 19:03:35 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tool protection from corrosion I haven't had to. In a steel boat , well sprayfoamed, things stay much drier than in other types of boats. Just make sure the locker you keep them in has no bare steel in it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Do you have to protect your power tools from corrosion when at sea, like storing them in sealed plastic bags or plastic box? > > Martin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28096|28038|2012-05-09 14:10:36|Aaron|Re: build location|John There is a BS36 in Anchorage it belongs to Joe Earsly http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/201976768/pic/list%c2%a0Last time I talked to him he had it in his driveway. Aaron Williams Creative Cuts and Welding P.O. Box 8027 Nikiski, Alaska 99635 907-394-2940 ________________________________ From: JOHN To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 11:18 AM Subject: [origamiboats] build location   Is there a Brent boat being built in Anchorage, AK. I would like to visit if agreeable. Thanks, John, cell phone 907-441-8606, e-mail jhwaalkes@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28097|28093|2012-05-10 16:50:56|steve|Re: Propane tanks|Brent , I bought a couple of the fiberglass propane tanks (20 lb) with a bleed screw. You can see the level as you fill by gravity. There seems to be a LOT of liquid gas that spills out through the valve before the tank is full, but it is likely not more than a pound or so. It takes me about 20 minutes in warm weather to fill a tank from another one hanging above it. I brought an extra North American tank valve with me , then bought a local valve once I arrived in Chile to put on the other end of the hose. I can fill the tanks totally to the top for an extra pound or two. There is a bit of spewing through the overflow valve in direct sunshine , especially since I have dark coloured cloth covers for the tanks. It all works well, and in places like Chlie where filling oportunites are far apart the extra few pounds are useful. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > If you stick to the type of propane tank which has a bleed screw in the valve, it makes it much easier to refill it from another tank. Just hook them together, put the full one on top, upside down, and the empty one on the bottom, right side up. Open both valves, then open the bleed screw until it begins to spit out liquid. Then close the bleed valve. Then the bottom tank is full. > | 28098|28093|2012-05-10 17:40:45|M.J. Malone|Re: Propane tanks|Its a bad idea to overfill propane tanks. Propane is enough of a hazard on a boat without that. Tank to tank transfers also pose challenges. Read news reports on the Sunrise Propane explosion in Toronto. Matt steve wrote: Brent , I bought a couple of the fiberglass propane tanks (20 lb) with a bleed screw. You can see the level as you fill by gravity. There seems to be a LOT of liquid gas that spills out through the valve before the tank is full, but it is likely not more than a pound or so. It takes me about 20 minutes in warm weather to fill a tank from another one hanging above it. I brought an extra North American tank valve with me , then bought a local valve once I arrived in Chile to put on the other end of the hose. I can fill the tanks totally to the top for an extra pound or two. There is a bit of spewing through the overflow valve in direct sunshine , especially since I have dark coloured cloth covers for the tanks. It all works well, and in places like Chlie where filling oportunites are far apart the extra few pounds are useful. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > If you stick to the type of propane tank which has a bleed screw in the valve, it makes it much easier to refill it from another tank. Just hook them together, put the full one on top, upside down, and the empty one on the bottom, right side up. Open both valves, then open the bleed screw until it begins to spit out liquid. Then close the bleed valve. Then the bottom tank is full. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28099|28093|2012-05-10 17:41:51|j fisher|Re: Propane tanks|All U.S. propane tanks now have shut off valves in them to prevent filling all the way up with liquid. On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 3:39 PM, M.J. Malone wrote: > ** > > > Its a bad idea to overfill propane tanks. Propane is enough of a hazard on > a boat without that. Tank to tank transfers also pose challenges. Read news > reports on the Sunrise Propane explosion in Toronto. > > Matt > > steve wrote: > > Brent , I bought a couple of the fiberglass propane tanks (20 lb) with a > bleed screw. You can see the level as you fill by gravity. There seems to > be a LOT of liquid gas that spills out through the valve before the tank is > full, but it is likely not more than a pound or so. It takes me about 20 > minutes in warm weather to fill a tank from another one hanging above it. I > brought an extra North American tank valve with me , then bought a local > valve once I arrived in Chile to put on the other end of the hose. > > I can fill the tanks totally to the top for an extra pound or two. There > is a bit of spewing through the overflow valve in direct sunshine , > especially since I have dark coloured cloth covers for the tanks. > It all works well, and in places like Chlie where filling oportunites are > far apart the extra few pounds are useful. > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > If you stick to the type of propane tank which has a bleed screw in the > valve, it makes it much easier to refill it from another tank. Just hook > them together, put the full one on top, upside down, and the empty one on > the bottom, right side up. Open both valves, then open the bleed screw > until it begins to spit out liquid. Then close the bleed valve. Then the > bottom tank is full. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28100|26545|2012-05-10 20:35:32|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel)|I was looking for some information about steel plates (for ordering) and found info about galvanized steel plate. There is more information (different one) about welding galvanized in file section: GALVANIZED SHEET STEEL PAINTING Galvanized sheet steel has a very smooth surface and because of this special surface treatments or paints must be used for good adhesion. Satisfactory results can be obtained with zinc dust paints, portland cement in-oil paints and some latex or other specially formulated paints specially developed for galvanized sheet steel. Conventional metallic zinc-dust paints perform the best on galvanized steel sheets; the zinc-rich type paints are not required. There are also specially developed paint pre-treatments for use on production facilities. Some of these would be a chromate conversion coating; an amorphous film of complex oxides; and a wash primer which is a basic zinc chromate vinyl butral wash-coat. American Metals Corporation can furnish more information on painting galvanize sheet steel. Galvannealed sheets have a dull gray zinc-iron-alloy surface which provides a rough textured surface for good paintability. The steel can be painted with many paints without any special treatment. Oil, grease or fingerprints can be cleaned with mineral spirits, paint thinner or naptha. WELDING AND SOLDERING Electric Resistance Welding: Welding conditions for galvanized sheets will differ somewhat from those used for welding uncoated sheets. Higher electrode pressures and welding current and shorter welding times are required to produce the same diameter fused zone in galvanized sheets as that in uncoated steel. The shorter weld time is required to minimize electrode pickup of zinc The following are recommended precautions that should be observed: 1. Electrodes should be kept as cool as possible by water cooling. 2. The use of copper alloy, truncated cone shaped is preferred. 3. Dome-type electrodes 1 1/2-3 inches in radius can also be used. Metallic Arc: Shielded arc welding procedures, including choice of electrode types, are about the same for galvanized and uncoated steel sheets except for the position of the electrode. ***** In welding galvanized sheets, the electrode should be directed slightly ahead of the welding pool and held high enough to allow the fumes to escape and avoid absorption of the zinc vapor by the deposited metal. It is important that welding be done in a veil ventilated area. ****** Oxyacetylene. Brazing flux is needed to promote fusion of the steel. Filler rods such as 60 copper and 40 zinc are available already fluxed. A neutral flame should be directly applied to the filler rod. Soldering: Tin-lead solders can be successfully used for joining together light gauge material. The solder produces a corrosion resistant joint and unlike the welding operation, the zinc coating is not affected. Oxides and fluxes that were developed during either the soldering or brazing operation should be removed by wire brushing. RESTORATION OF WELD AREAS Spot and arc welding will burn and vaporize the zinc coating creating an area for corrosion attack. There are two methods used for restoring the corrosion resistance and cosmetic appearance of the welded areas. One method is zinc repair sticks which are 99.99% zinc. The stick is heated to approximately 525 degrees F and rubbed on the damaged area. There are also many proprietary zinc-rich paints which can be applied either by brush or out of aerosol cans. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I just had three 5' x 10' sheets of 11gauge galvanized steel drooped off here at my house. > > I was going to try my plasma cutter on the galvanized. Most people told me that plasma could only cut new clean metal, but all I ever cut is the rustiest stuff and it works great. I have cut thin galvanized but never anything this thick.  > > | 28101|28093|2012-05-10 21:45:58|brentswain38|Re: Propane tanks|The last time I had my tank filled, the guy didn't even bother putting it on a scale, just opened the bleed valve til it spit liquid, while he pumped it in. With a fibreglass tank, it should be easy to leave a bit of space on top. Easy to bleed a bit off in a metal tank In some areas, tank to tank transfers are the only option. We don't always have the luxury of living right next to a propane source. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > Its a bad idea to overfill propane tanks. Propane is enough of a hazard on a boat without that. Tank to tank transfers also pose challenges. Read news reports on the Sunrise Propane explosion in Toronto. > > Matt > > steve wrote: > > Brent , I bought a couple of the fiberglass propane tanks (20 lb) with a bleed screw. You can see the level as you fill by gravity. There seems to be a LOT of liquid gas that spills out through the valve before the tank is full, but it is likely not more than a pound or so. It takes me about 20 minutes in warm weather to fill a tank from another one hanging above it. I brought an extra North American tank valve with me , then bought a local valve once I arrived in Chile to put on the other end of the hose. > > I can fill the tanks totally to the top for an extra pound or two. There is a bit of spewing through the overflow valve in direct sunshine , especially since I have dark coloured cloth covers for the tanks. > It all works well, and in places like Chlie where filling oportunites are far apart the extra few pounds are useful. > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > If you stick to the type of propane tank which has a bleed screw in the valve, it makes it much easier to refill it from another tank. Just hook them together, put the full one on top, upside down, and the empty one on the bottom, right side up. Open both valves, then open the bleed screw until it begins to spit out liquid. Then close the bleed valve. Then the bottom tank is full. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28102|26545|2012-05-10 21:50:19|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel)|I used galv plates for my decks and cabin. Washed it first with TSP then with vinegar, finally with water. Epoxy stuck like shit to a blanket, for the last 28 years. I found galv doesn't like being welded with 7018 or Mig. 6011 and 7024 works fine --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was looking for some information about steel plates (for ordering) and found info about galvanized steel plate. There is more information (different one) about welding galvanized in file section: > > GALVANIZED SHEET STEEL > > PAINTING > > Galvanized sheet steel has a very smooth surface and because of this special surface treatments or paints must be used for good adhesion. Satisfactory results can be obtained with zinc dust paints, portland cement in-oil paints and some latex or other specially formulated paints specially developed for galvanized sheet steel. Conventional > metallic zinc-dust paints perform the best on galvanized steel sheets; the zinc-rich type paints are not required. There are also specially developed paint pre-treatments for use on production facilities. Some of these would be a chromate conversion coating; > an amorphous film of complex oxides; and a wash primer which is a basic zinc chromate vinyl butral wash-coat. American Metals Corporation can furnish more information on painting galvanize sheet steel. > > Galvannealed sheets have a dull gray zinc-iron-alloy surface which provides a rough textured surface for good paintability. The steel can be painted with many paints without any special treatment. Oil, grease or fingerprints can be cleaned with mineral spirits, paint thinner or naptha. > > WELDING AND SOLDERING > > Electric Resistance Welding: Welding conditions for galvanized sheets will differ somewhat from those used for welding uncoated sheets. Higher electrode pressures and welding current and shorter welding times are required to produce the same diameter fused zone in galvanized sheets as that in uncoated steel. The shorter weld > time is required to minimize electrode pickup of zinc The following are recommended precautions that should be observed: > > 1. Electrodes should be kept as cool as possible by water cooling. > 2. The use of copper alloy, truncated cone shaped is preferred. > 3. Dome-type electrodes 1 1/2-3 inches in radius can also be used. > > Metallic Arc: Shielded arc welding procedures, including choice of electrode types, are about the same for galvanized and uncoated steel sheets except for the position of the electrode. > ***** > In welding galvanized sheets, the electrode should be directed slightly ahead of the welding pool and held high enough to allow the fumes to escape and avoid absorption of the zinc vapor by the deposited metal. It is important that welding be done in a veil ventilated area. > ****** > > Oxyacetylene. Brazing flux is needed to promote fusion of the steel. Filler rods such as 60 copper and 40 zinc are available already fluxed. A neutral flame should be directly applied to the filler rod. > Soldering: Tin-lead solders can be successfully used for joining together light gauge material. The solder produces a corrosion resistant joint and unlike the welding operation, the zinc coating is not affected. Oxides and fluxes that were developed during either the soldering or brazing operation should be removed by wire brushing. > > RESTORATION OF WELD AREAS > > Spot and arc welding will burn and vaporize the zinc coating creating an area for corrosion attack. There are two methods used for restoring the corrosion resistance and cosmetic appearance of the welded areas. One method is zinc repair sticks which are 99.99% zinc. The stick is heated to approximately 525 degrees F and > rubbed on the damaged area. There are also many proprietary zinc-rich paints which can be applied either by brush or out of aerosol cans. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > I just had three 5' x 10' sheets of 11gauge galvanized steel drooped off here at my house. > > > > I was going to try my plasma cutter on the galvanized. Most people told me that plasma could only cut new clean metal, but all I ever cut is the rustiest stuff and it works great. I have cut thin galvanized but never anything this thick.  > > > > > | 28103|28093|2012-05-10 21:55:28|Robert Jones|Re: Propane tanks|The new tanks will not overfill. There is a float valve inside that shuts it off should too  much enter. --- On Thu, 5/10/12, M.J. Malone wrote: From: M.J. Malone Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Propane tanks To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, May 10, 2012, 3:39 PM   Its a bad idea to overfill propane tanks. Propane is enough of a hazard on a boat without that. Tank to tank transfers also pose challenges. Read news reports on the Sunrise Propane explosion in Toronto. Matt steve wrote: Brent , I bought a couple of the fiberglass propane tanks (20 lb) with a bleed screw. You can see the level as you fill by gravity. There seems to be a LOT of liquid gas that spills out through the valve before the tank is full, but it is likely not more than a pound or so. It takes me about 20 minutes in warm weather to fill a tank from another one hanging above it. I brought an extra North American tank valve with me , then bought a local valve once I arrived in Chile to put on the other end of the hose. I can fill the tanks totally to the top for an extra pound or two. There is a bit of spewing through the overflow valve in direct sunshine , especially since I have dark coloured cloth covers for the tanks. It all works well, and in places like Chlie where filling oportunites are far apart the extra few pounds are useful. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > If you stick to the type of propane tank which has a bleed screw in the valve, it makes it much easier to refill it from another tank. Just hook them together, put the full one on top, upside down, and the empty one on the bottom, right side up. Open both valves, then open the bleed screw until it begins to spit out liquid. Then close the bleed valve. Then the bottom tank is full. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28104|28093|2012-05-11 00:00:48|chris123|Re: Propane tanks|I used to fill green bottles this way and did not bother with the bleed valve on green bottles. Filled to about 90 percent capacity. Good enough. Adapter was from ebay. Those fibre glass bottles are nice. Got mine at HD for 35 dollars, as the vendor who runs the bottle exchange did not have a single customer as no one trusted them. So they were sold off. Called everyone I knew in Ottawa who sailed. We all got one or more and the lot of 50 was gone by noon. Great bottles. /ch On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 4:50 PM, steve wrote: > ** > > > Brent , I bought a couple of the fiberglass propane tanks (20 lb) with a > bleed screw. You can see the level as you fill by gravity. There seems to > be a LOT of liquid gas that spills out through the valve before the tank is > full, but it is likely not more than a pound or so. It takes me about 20 > minutes in warm weather to fill a tank from another one hanging above it. I > brought an extra North American tank valve with me , then bought a local > valve once I arrived in Chile to put on the other end of the hose. > > I can fill the tanks totally to the top for an extra pound or two. There > is a bit of spewing through the overflow valve in direct sunshine , > especially since I have dark coloured cloth covers for the tanks. > It all works well, and in places like Chlie where filling oportunites are > far apart the extra few pounds are useful. > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > If you stick to the type of propane tank which has a bleed screw in the > valve, it makes it much easier to refill it from another tank. Just hook > them together, put the full one on top, upside down, and the empty one on > the bottom, right side up. Open both valves, then open the bleed screw > until it begins to spit out liquid. Then close the bleed valve. Then the > bottom tank is full. > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28105|26545|2012-05-11 00:22:31|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel)|I don't think the need for ventilation has been stressed strongly enough here, Zinc fumes coming off galvanized steel at high temperatures are HIGHLY poisonous. Unless the fumes are ventilated away from you, you will get very seriously sick. Bruno Ogorelec On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:50 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > I used galv plates for my decks and cabin. Washed it first with TSP then > with vinegar, finally with water. Epoxy stuck like shit to a blanket, for > the last 28 years. > I found galv doesn't like being welded with 7018 or Mig. 6011 and 7024 > works fine > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" > wrote: > > > > I was looking for some information about steel plates (for ordering) and > found info about galvanized steel plate. There is more information > (different one) about welding galvanized in file section: > > > > GALVANIZED SHEET STEEL > > > > PAINTING > > > > Galvanized sheet steel has a very smooth surface and because of this > special surface treatments or paints must be used for good adhesion. > Satisfactory results can be obtained with zinc dust paints, portland cement > in-oil paints and some latex or other specially formulated paints specially > developed for galvanized sheet steel. Conventional > > metallic zinc-dust paints perform the best on galvanized steel sheets; > the zinc-rich type paints are not required. There are also specially > developed paint pre-treatments for use on production facilities. Some of > these would be a chromate conversion coating; > > an amorphous film of complex oxides; and a wash primer which is a basic > zinc chromate vinyl butral wash-coat. American Metals Corporation can > furnish more information on painting galvanize sheet steel. > > > > Galvannealed sheets have a dull gray zinc-iron-alloy surface which > provides a rough textured surface for good paintability. The steel can be > painted with many paints without any special treatment. Oil, grease or > fingerprints can be cleaned with mineral spirits, paint thinner or naptha. > > > > WELDING AND SOLDERING > > > > Electric Resistance Welding: Welding conditions for galvanized sheets > will differ somewhat from those used for welding uncoated sheets. Higher > electrode pressures and welding current and shorter welding times are > required to produce the same diameter fused zone in galvanized sheets as > that in uncoated steel. The shorter weld > > time is required to minimize electrode pickup of zinc The following are > recommended precautions that should be observed: > > > > 1. Electrodes should be kept as cool as possible by water cooling. > > 2. The use of copper alloy, truncated cone shaped is preferred. > > 3. Dome-type electrodes 1 1/2-3 inches in radius can also be used. > > > > Metallic Arc: Shielded arc welding procedures, including choice of > electrode types, are about the same for galvanized and uncoated steel > sheets except for the position of the electrode. > > ***** > > In welding galvanized sheets, the electrode should be directed slightly > ahead of the welding pool and held high enough to allow the fumes to escape > and avoid absorption of the zinc vapor by the deposited metal. It is > important that welding be done in a veil ventilated area. > > ****** > > > > Oxyacetylene. Brazing flux is needed to promote fusion of the steel. > Filler rods such as 60 copper and 40 zinc are available already fluxed. A > neutral flame should be directly applied to the filler rod. > > Soldering: Tin-lead solders can be successfully used for joining > together light gauge material. The solder produces a corrosion resistant > joint and unlike the welding operation, the zinc coating is not affected. > Oxides and fluxes that were developed during either the soldering or > brazing operation should be removed by wire brushing. > > > > RESTORATION OF WELD AREAS > > > > Spot and arc welding will burn and vaporize the zinc coating creating an > area for corrosion attack. There are two methods used for restoring the > corrosion resistance and cosmetic appearance of the welded areas. One > method is zinc repair sticks which are 99.99% zinc. The stick is heated to > approximately 525 degrees F and > > rubbed on the damaged area. There are also many proprietary zinc-rich > paints which can be applied either by brush or out of aerosol cans. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > I just had three 5' x 10' sheets of 11gauge galvanized steel drooped > off here at my house. > > > > > > I was going to try my plasma cutter on the galvanized. Most people > told me that� plasma could only cut new clean metal, but all I� ever cut is > the� rustiest stuff and it works great. I have cut thin galvanized but > never anything this thick.� > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28106|26545|2012-05-11 06:49:03|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel)|Great Info, thank you! I am working out doors with the galvanized plate when cutting and welding and I will set-up a vacuum source when I am welding as well as wearing a 3m half mask. I have a 3M 2091 filter but I am not sure if this is the best for welding zinc plated steel. The best thing I know would be to use a SCBA unit. I could hook a hose into my mask and pipe clean air in to the mask or what for a really windy day? James --- On Thu, 5/10/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, May 10, 2012, 8:35 PM   I was looking for some information about steel plates (for ordering) and found info about galvanized steel plate. There is more information (different one) about welding galvanized in file section: GALVANIZED SHEET STEEL PAINTING Galvanized sheet steel has a very smooth surface and because of this special surface treatments or paints must be used for good adhesion. Satisfactory results can be obtained with zinc dust paints, portland cement in-oil paints and some latex or other specially formulated paints specially developed for galvanized sheet steel. Conventional metallic zinc-dust paints perform the best on galvanized steel sheets; the zinc-rich type paints are not required. There are also specially developed paint pre-treatments for use on production facilities. Some of these would be a chromate conversion coating; an amorphous film of complex oxides; and a wash primer which is a basic zinc chromate vinyl butral wash-coat. American Metals Corporation can furnish more information on painting galvanize sheet steel. Galvannealed sheets have a dull gray zinc-iron-alloy surface which provides a rough textured surface for good paintability. The steel can be painted with many paints without any special treatment. Oil, grease or fingerprints can be cleaned with mineral spirits, paint thinner or naptha. WELDING AND SOLDERING Electric Resistance Welding: Welding conditions for galvanized sheets will differ somewhat from those used for welding uncoated sheets. Higher electrode pressures and welding current and shorter welding times are required to produce the same diameter fused zone in galvanized sheets as that in uncoated steel. The shorter weld time is required to minimize electrode pickup of zinc The following are recommended precautions that should be observed: 1. Electrodes should be kept as cool as possible by water cooling. 2. The use of copper alloy, truncated cone shaped is preferred. 3. Dome-type electrodes 1 1/2-3 inches in radius can also be used. Metallic Arc: Shielded arc welding procedures, including choice of electrode types, are about the same for galvanized and uncoated steel sheets except for the position of the electrode. ***** In welding galvanized sheets, the electrode should be directed slightly ahead of the welding pool and held high enough to allow the fumes to escape and avoid absorption of the zinc vapor by the deposited metal. It is important that welding be done in a veil ventilated area. ****** Oxyacetylene. Brazing flux is needed to promote fusion of the steel. Filler rods such as 60 copper and 40 zinc are available already fluxed. A neutral flame should be directly applied to the filler rod. Soldering: Tin-lead solders can be successfully used for joining together light gauge material. The solder produces a corrosion resistant joint and unlike the welding operation, the zinc coating is not affected. Oxides and fluxes that were developed during either the soldering or brazing operation should be removed by wire brushing. RESTORATION OF WELD AREAS Spot and arc welding will burn and vaporize the zinc coating creating an area for corrosion attack. There are two methods used for restoring the corrosion resistance and cosmetic appearance of the welded areas. One method is zinc repair sticks which are 99.99% zinc. The stick is heated to approximately 525 degrees F and rubbed on the damaged area. There are also many proprietary zinc-rich paints which can be applied either by brush or out of aerosol cans. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I just had three 5' x 10' sheets of 11gauge galvanized steel drooped off here at my house. > > I was going to try my plasma cutter on the galvanized. Most people told me that plasma could only cut new clean metal, but all I ever cut is the rustiest stuff and it works great. I have cut thin galvanized but never anything this thick.  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28107|26545|2012-05-11 11:54:32|Robert Jones|Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel)| Check these respirator-auto darkening helmets. Not too expensive, especially considering that a few good whiffs can put you out of commission for a few days. rj http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=welding+respirator&_sacat=0&_odkw=Sperian+OS100&_osacat=0&_from=R40 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28108|26545|2012-05-11 11:54:43|Robert Jones|Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel)|I us a big fan, like a squirrel cage, on my whole work area. SCBA is tough to weld in. Positive pressure clean air masks can be purchased. There are a number of brands. Would be hard to justify for occasional use, but for I would buy one for sure is i was starting a boat project out of galvanized. Possibly some used on the market. Here is one brand new. http://www.westernsafety.com/optrelwelding/optrelweldingpg2.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28109|26545|2012-05-11 11:56:12|Robert Jones|Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel)|or just DIE! As a lifetime welder, i've welded galv. steel many times, some times holding my breath while a patched a piece for someone. The worst sickness i've had from the fumes is severe headache and nausea that lasted a couple of days. Not worth is unless the area is power ventalated!!! rj --- On Thu, 5/10/12, Bruno Ogorelec wrote: From: Bruno Ogorelec Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, May 10, 2012, 10:22 PM I don't think the need for ventilation has been stressed strongly enough here,  Zinc fumes coming off galvanized steel at high temperatures are HIGHLY poisonous.  Unless the fumes are ventilated away from you, you will get very seriously sick. Bruno Ogorelec On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:50 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > I used galv plates for my decks and cabin. Washed it first with TSP then > with vinegar, finally with water. Epoxy stuck like shit to a blanket, for > the last 28 years. > I found galv doesn't like being welded with 7018 or Mig. 6011 and 7024 > works fine > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" > wrote: > > > > I was looking for some information about steel plates (for ordering) and > found info about galvanized steel plate. There is more information > (different one) about welding galvanized in file section: > > > > GALVANIZED SHEET STEEL > > > > PAINTING > > > > Galvanized sheet steel has a very smooth surface and because of this > special surface treatments or paints must be used for good adhesion. > Satisfactory results can be obtained with zinc dust paints, portland cement > in-oil paints and some latex or other specially formulated paints specially > developed for galvanized sheet steel. Conventional > > metallic zinc-dust paints perform the best on galvanized steel sheets; > the zinc-rich type paints are not required. There are also specially > developed paint pre-treatments for use on production facilities. Some of > these would be a chromate conversion coating; > > an amorphous film of complex oxides; and a wash primer which is a basic > zinc chromate vinyl butral wash-coat. American Metals Corporation can > furnish more information on painting galvanize sheet steel. > > > > Galvannealed sheets have a dull gray zinc-iron-alloy surface which > provides a rough textured surface for good paintability. The steel can be > painted with many paints without any special treatment. Oil, grease or > fingerprints can be cleaned with mineral spirits, paint thinner or naptha. > > > > WELDING AND SOLDERING > > > > Electric Resistance Welding: Welding conditions for galvanized sheets > will differ somewhat from those used for welding uncoated sheets. Higher > electrode pressures and welding current and shorter welding times are > required to produce the same diameter fused zone in galvanized sheets as > that in uncoated steel. The shorter weld > > time is required to minimize electrode pickup of zinc The following are > recommended precautions that should be observed: > > > > 1. Electrodes should be kept as cool as possible by water cooling. > > 2. The use of copper alloy, truncated cone shaped is preferred. > > 3. Dome-type electrodes 1 1/2-3 inches in radius can also be used. > > > > Metallic Arc: Shielded arc welding procedures, including choice of > electrode types, are about the same for galvanized and uncoated steel > sheets except for the position of the electrode. > > ***** > > In welding galvanized sheets, the electrode should be directed slightly > ahead of the welding pool and held high enough to allow the fumes to escape > and avoid absorption of the zinc vapor by the deposited metal. It is > important that welding be done in a veil ventilated area. > > ****** > > > > Oxyacetylene. Brazing flux is needed to promote fusion of the steel. > Filler rods such as 60 copper and 40 zinc are available already fluxed. A > neutral flame should be directly applied to the filler rod. > > Soldering: Tin-lead solders can be successfully used for joining > together light gauge material. The solder produces a corrosion resistant > joint and unlike the welding operation, the zinc coating is not affected. > Oxides and fluxes that were developed during either the soldering or > brazing operation should be removed by wire brushing. > > > > RESTORATION OF WELD AREAS > > > > Spot and arc welding will burn and vaporize the zinc coating creating an > area for corrosion attack. There are two methods used for restoring the > corrosion resistance and cosmetic appearance of the welded areas. One > method is zinc repair sticks which are 99.99% zinc. The stick is heated to > approximately 525 degrees F and > > rubbed on the damaged area. There are also many proprietary zinc-rich > paints which can be applied either by brush or out of aerosol cans. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > I just had three 5' x 10' sheets of 11gauge galvanized steel drooped > off here at my house. > > > > > > I was going to try my plasma cutter on the galvanized. Most people > told me that plasma could only cut new clean metal, but all I ever cut is > the rustiest stuff and it works great. I have cut thin galvanized but > never anything this thick. > > > > > > > > > >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28110|26545|2012-05-11 16:01:27|Paul Wilson|Swain for sale in NZ|For sale in NZ...$95,000 NZD which is about $75,000 USD. I think the name is ULLR and it looks like the stern is extended a bit. Does anyone know of any other Swains in NZ other than this one and mine (Opus IV)? http://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/ggmb/displayboat.php?list_code=8907&broker1=45 Cheers, Paul| 28111|26545|2012-05-11 16:13:08|Paul Wilson|Re: Swain for sale in NZ|I found some old postings on ULLR in the archives. It would be best to have a read of them since ULLR seems to have some stability issues. The thread starts with message #22955 April 1, 2010. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/22955 On 12/05/2012 8:00 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > For sale in NZ...$95,000 NZD which is about $75,000 USD. > > I think the name is ULLR and it looks like the stern is extended a bit. > Does anyone know of any other Swains in NZ other than this one and mine > (Opus IV)? > > http://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/ggmb/displayboat.php?list_code=8907&broker1=45 > > > Cheers, Paul > > | 28112|26545|2012-05-11 16:41:24|brentswain38|Re: Swain for sale in NZ|A kiwi I met in Tonga told me ULLR was severely vandalized by her owner, transom extended, keel modified, a very heavy steel dodger added, etc. She was a good boat when she left here. Take her back to the original design, get rid of all the "Improvements" and you will have a good boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I found some old postings on ULLR in the archives. It would be best to > have a read of them since ULLR seems to have some stability issues. The > thread starts with message #22955 April 1, 2010. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/22955 > > On 12/05/2012 8:00 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > For sale in NZ...$95,000 NZD which is about $75,000 USD. > > > > I think the name is ULLR and it looks like the stern is extended a bit. > > Does anyone know of any other Swains in NZ other than this one and mine > > (Opus IV)? > > > > http://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/ggmb/displayboat.php?list_code=8907&broker1=45 > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > | 28113|26545|2012-05-11 16:46:59|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel)|I hooked a mask up to 24 feet of plastic sump drain hose, so I was breathing air from 24 feet away. Check valves in the mask kept it going one way only. Worked outside in a strong wind. Then, to make damned sure I wasn't breathing any zinc fumes, I let Evan weld it. This rig is also great for epoxying the boat inside. Zero chance of breathing any fumes. It's far easier to suck air thru 24 feet of 1 1/4 inch sump drain hose than thru a filtre, and far safer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > or just DIE! As a lifetime welder, i've welded galv. steel many times, some times holding my breath while a patched a piece for someone. The worst sickness i've had from the fumes is severe headache and nausea that lasted a couple of days. Not worth is unless the area is power ventalated!!! rj > > --- On Thu, 5/10/12, Bruno Ogorelec wrote: > > From: Bruno Ogorelec > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, May 10, 2012, 10:22 PM > > I don't think the need for ventilation has been stressed strongly enough > here,  Zinc fumes coming off galvanized steel at high temperatures are > HIGHLY poisonous.  Unless the fumes are ventilated away from you, you will > get very seriously sick. > > Bruno Ogorelec > > > On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:50 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I used galv plates for my decks and cabin. Washed it first with TSP then > > with vinegar, finally with water. Epoxy stuck like shit to a blanket, for > > the last 28 years. > > I found galv doesn't like being welded with 7018 or Mig. 6011 and 7024 > > works fine > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" > > wrote: > > > > > > I was looking for some information about steel plates (for ordering) and > > found info about galvanized steel plate. There is more information > > (different one) about welding galvanized in file section: > > > > > > GALVANIZED SHEET STEEL > > > > > > PAINTING > > > > > > Galvanized sheet steel has a very smooth surface and because of this > > special surface treatments or paints must be used for good adhesion. > > Satisfactory results can be obtained with zinc dust paints, portland cement > > in-oil paints and some latex or other specially formulated paints specially > > developed for galvanized sheet steel. Conventional > > > metallic zinc-dust paints perform the best on galvanized steel sheets; > > the zinc-rich type paints are not required. There are also specially > > developed paint pre-treatments for use on production facilities. Some of > > these would be a chromate conversion coating; > > > an amorphous film of complex oxides; and a wash primer which is a basic > > zinc chromate vinyl butral wash-coat. American Metals Corporation can > > furnish more information on painting galvanize sheet steel. > > > > > > Galvannealed sheets have a dull gray zinc-iron-alloy surface which > > provides a rough textured surface for good paintability. The steel can be > > painted with many paints without any special treatment. Oil, grease or > > fingerprints can be cleaned with mineral spirits, paint thinner or naptha. > > > > > > WELDING AND SOLDERING > > > > > > Electric Resistance Welding: Welding conditions for galvanized sheets > > will differ somewhat from those used for welding uncoated sheets. Higher > > electrode pressures and welding current and shorter welding times are > > required to produce the same diameter fused zone in galvanized sheets as > > that in uncoated steel. The shorter weld > > > time is required to minimize electrode pickup of zinc The following are > > recommended precautions that should be observed: > > > > > > 1. Electrodes should be kept as cool as possible by water cooling. > > > 2. The use of copper alloy, truncated cone shaped is preferred. > > > 3. Dome-type electrodes 1 1/2-3 inches in radius can also be used. > > > > > > Metallic Arc: Shielded arc welding procedures, including choice of > > electrode types, are about the same for galvanized and uncoated steel > > sheets except for the position of the electrode. > > > ***** > > > In welding galvanized sheets, the electrode should be directed slightly > > ahead of the welding pool and held high enough to allow the fumes to escape > > and avoid absorption of the zinc vapor by the deposited metal. It is > > important that welding be done in a veil ventilated area. > > > ****** > > > > > > Oxyacetylene. Brazing flux is needed to promote fusion of the steel. > > Filler rods such as 60 copper and 40 zinc are available already fluxed. A > > neutral flame should be directly applied to the filler rod. > > > Soldering: Tin-lead solders can be successfully used for joining > > together light gauge material. The solder produces a corrosion resistant > > joint and unlike the welding operation, the zinc coating is not affected. > > Oxides and fluxes that were developed during either the soldering or > > brazing operation should be removed by wire brushing. > > > > > > RESTORATION OF WELD AREAS > > > > > > Spot and arc welding will burn and vaporize the zinc coating creating an > > area for corrosion attack. There are two methods used for restoring the > > corrosion resistance and cosmetic appearance of the welded areas. One > > method is zinc repair sticks which are 99.99% zinc. The stick is heated to > > approximately 525 degrees F and > > > rubbed on the damaged area. There are also many proprietary zinc-rich > > paints which can be applied either by brush or out of aerosol cans. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > > > I just had three 5' x 10' sheets of 11gauge galvanized steel drooped > > off here at my house. > > > > > > > > I was going to try my plasma cutter on the galvanized. Most people > > told me that plasma could only cut new clean metal, but all I ever cut is > > the rustiest stuff and it works great. I have cut thin galvanized but > > never anything this thick. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28114|28093|2012-05-11 16:48:18|brentswain38|Re: Propane tanks|Using the bleed valve makes filling much quicker. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > I used to fill green bottles this way and did not bother with the bleed > valve on green bottles. Filled to about 90 percent capacity. Good enough. > Adapter was from ebay. Those fibre glass bottles are nice. Got mine at HD > for 35 dollars, as the vendor who runs the bottle exchange did not have a > single customer as no one trusted them. So they were sold off. Called > everyone I knew in Ottawa who sailed. We all got one or more and the lot of > 50 was gone by noon. Great bottles. > > /ch > > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 4:50 PM, steve wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Brent , I bought a couple of the fiberglass propane tanks (20 lb) with a > > bleed screw. You can see the level as you fill by gravity. There seems to > > be a LOT of liquid gas that spills out through the valve before the tank is > > full, but it is likely not more than a pound or so. It takes me about 20 > > minutes in warm weather to fill a tank from another one hanging above it. I > > brought an extra North American tank valve with me , then bought a local > > valve once I arrived in Chile to put on the other end of the hose. > > > > I can fill the tanks totally to the top for an extra pound or two. There > > is a bit of spewing through the overflow valve in direct sunshine , > > especially since I have dark coloured cloth covers for the tanks. > > It all works well, and in places like Chlie where filling oportunites are > > far apart the extra few pounds are useful. > > Steve > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > If you stick to the type of propane tank which has a bleed screw in the > > valve, it makes it much easier to refill it from another tank. Just hook > > them together, put the full one on top, upside down, and the empty one on > > the bottom, right side up. Open both valves, then open the bleed screw > > until it begins to spit out liquid. Then close the bleed valve. Then the > > bottom tank is full. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28115|26545|2012-05-11 16:50:04|Paul Wilson|Re: Swain for sale in NZ|Yeah, I see I originally posted on the thread. I have a mind like a sieve....some things catch but a lot flows through. On 12/05/2012 8:41 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > A kiwi I met in Tonga told me ULLR was severely vandalized by her > owner, transom extended, keel modified, a very heavy steel dodger > added, etc. She was a good boat when she left here. Take her back to > the original design, get rid of all the "Improvements" and you will > have a good boat. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I found some old postings on ULLR in the archives. It would be best to > > have a read of them since ULLR seems to have some stability issues. The > > thread starts with message #22955 April 1, 2010. > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/22955 > > > > On 12/05/2012 8:00 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > For sale in NZ...$95,000 NZD which is about $75,000 USD. > > > > > > I think the name is ULLR and it looks like the stern is extended a > bit. > > > Does anyone know of any other Swains in NZ other than this one and > mine > > > (Opus IV)? > > > > > > > http://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/ggmb/displayboat.php?list_code=8907&broker1=45 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > | 28116|26545|2012-05-11 16:54:26|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel)|I got zinc poisoning once, It was mild flue like symptoms. which went away in a few days. Temporary, unlike some bad fumes. Lack of zinc leads to prostate problems. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > or just DIE! As a lifetime welder, i've welded galv. steel many times, some times holding my breath while a patched a piece for someone. The worst sickness i've had from the fumes is severe headache and nausea that lasted a couple of days. Not worth is unless the area is power ventalated!!! rj > > --- On Thu, 5/10/12, Bruno Ogorelec wrote: > > From: Bruno Ogorelec > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, May 10, 2012, 10:22 PM > > I don't think the need for ventilation has been stressed strongly enough > here,  Zinc fumes coming off galvanized steel at high temperatures are > HIGHLY poisonous.  Unless the fumes are ventilated away from you, you will > get very seriously sick. > > Bruno Ogorelec > > > On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:50 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I used galv plates for my decks and cabin. Washed it first with TSP then > > with vinegar, finally with water. Epoxy stuck like shit to a blanket, for > > the last 28 years. > > I found galv doesn't like being welded with 7018 or Mig. 6011 and 7024 > > works fine > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" > > wrote: > > > > > > I was looking for some information about steel plates (for ordering) and > > found info about galvanized steel plate. There is more information > > (different one) about welding galvanized in file section: > > > > > > GALVANIZED SHEET STEEL > > > > > > PAINTING > > > > > > Galvanized sheet steel has a very smooth surface and because of this > > special surface treatments or paints must be used for good adhesion. > > Satisfactory results can be obtained with zinc dust paints, portland cement > > in-oil paints and some latex or other specially formulated paints specially > > developed for galvanized sheet steel. Conventional > > > metallic zinc-dust paints perform the best on galvanized steel sheets; > > the zinc-rich type paints are not required. There are also specially > > developed paint pre-treatments for use on production facilities. Some of > > these would be a chromate conversion coating; > > > an amorphous film of complex oxides; and a wash primer which is a basic > > zinc chromate vinyl butral wash-coat. American Metals Corporation can > > furnish more information on painting galvanize sheet steel. > > > > > > Galvannealed sheets have a dull gray zinc-iron-alloy surface which > > provides a rough textured surface for good paintability. The steel can be > > painted with many paints without any special treatment. Oil, grease or > > fingerprints can be cleaned with mineral spirits, paint thinner or naptha. > > > > > > WELDING AND SOLDERING > > > > > > Electric Resistance Welding: Welding conditions for galvanized sheets > > will differ somewhat from those used for welding uncoated sheets. Higher > > electrode pressures and welding current and shorter welding times are > > required to produce the same diameter fused zone in galvanized sheets as > > that in uncoated steel. The shorter weld > > > time is required to minimize electrode pickup of zinc The following are > > recommended precautions that should be observed: > > > > > > 1. Electrodes should be kept as cool as possible by water cooling. > > > 2. The use of copper alloy, truncated cone shaped is preferred. > > > 3. Dome-type electrodes 1 1/2-3 inches in radius can also be used. > > > > > > Metallic Arc: Shielded arc welding procedures, including choice of > > electrode types, are about the same for galvanized and uncoated steel > > sheets except for the position of the electrode. > > > ***** > > > In welding galvanized sheets, the electrode should be directed slightly > > ahead of the welding pool and held high enough to allow the fumes to escape > > and avoid absorption of the zinc vapor by the deposited metal. It is > > important that welding be done in a veil ventilated area. > > > ****** > > > > > > Oxyacetylene. Brazing flux is needed to promote fusion of the steel. > > Filler rods such as 60 copper and 40 zinc are available already fluxed. A > > neutral flame should be directly applied to the filler rod. > > > Soldering: Tin-lead solders can be successfully used for joining > > together light gauge material. The solder produces a corrosion resistant > > joint and unlike the welding operation, the zinc coating is not affected. > > Oxides and fluxes that were developed during either the soldering or > > brazing operation should be removed by wire brushing. > > > > > > RESTORATION OF WELD AREAS > > > > > > Spot and arc welding will burn and vaporize the zinc coating creating an > > area for corrosion attack. There are two methods used for restoring the > > corrosion resistance and cosmetic appearance of the welded areas. One > > method is zinc repair sticks which are 99.99% zinc. The stick is heated to > > approximately 525 degrees F and > > > rubbed on the damaged area. There are also many proprietary zinc-rich > > paints which can be applied either by brush or out of aerosol cans. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > > > I just had three 5' x 10' sheets of 11gauge galvanized steel drooped > > off here at my house. > > > > > > > > I was going to try my plasma cutter on the galvanized. Most people > > told me that plasma could only cut new clean metal, but all I ever cut is > > the rustiest stuff and it works great. I have cut thin galvanized but > > never anything this thick. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28117|26545|2012-05-11 18:53:10|Paul Wilson|Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel)|I remember feeling sick and having nose bleeds after welding on the galvanized toe rail. I had no idea but was much more careful after that..... On 12/05/2012 8:54 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > I got zinc poisoning once, It was mild flue like symptoms. which went > away in a few days. Temporary, unlike some bad fumes. > Lack of zinc leads to prostate problems. > > | 28118|28093|2012-05-11 20:29:08|Mark Hamill|Re: Propane tanks|Have used the fiberglass tanks on rental/charter boats for several years and they are great. Personaly have Worthington 35 lb. capacity aluminum tanks that were modified by a propane dealer from the lie-down forklift tanks to an upright tank. I got them for free and I think about 8 years ago it was $85 CDN each tank ?? May be wrong. New I think they may be $300??. So that may be another option--but if you can get the plastic ones for $35--love those plastic tanks. MarkH http://www.worthingtoncylinders.com/products/Propane/Portables/Aluminum.aspx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28119|28093|2012-05-11 21:02:54|Paul Wilson|Re: Propane tanks|What is the certified life on the fiberglass tanks? Are they worth the extra money? The reason I ask is because with a bit of care the regular steel tanks last 10 years and after that I have to throw them out because no one in NZ will fill them. They always read the date and re-certifying them is too costly. I can get a new tank for about $40 trade in with the old expired tank. Paul On 12/05/2012 12:29 p.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > Have used the fiberglass tanks on rental/charter boats for several > years and they are great. Personaly have Worthington 35 lb. capacity > aluminum tanks that were modified by a propane dealer from the > lie-down forklift tanks to an upright tank. I got them for free and I > think about 8 years ago it was $85 CDN each tank ?? May be wrong. New > I think they may be $300??. So that may be another option--but if you > can get the plastic ones for $35--love those plastic tanks. MarkH > http://www.worthingtoncylinders.com/products/Propane/Portables/Aluminum.aspx > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 28120|28093|2012-05-11 21:13:25|Brian Stannard|Re: Propane tanks|15 year life stated on my 2 fiberglass tanks. On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > What is the certified life on the fiberglass tanks? Are they worth the > extra money? The reason I ask is because with a bit of care the regular > steel tanks last 10 years and after that I have to throw them out > because no one in NZ will fill them. They always read the date and > re-certifying them is too costly. I can get a new tank for about $40 > trade in with the old expired tank. > > Paul > > On 12/05/2012 12:29 p.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > > > Have used the fiberglass tanks on rental/charter boats for several > > years and they are great. Personaly have Worthington 35 lb. capacity > > aluminum tanks that were modified by a propane dealer from the > > lie-down forklift tanks to an upright tank. I got them for free and I > > think about 8 years ago it was $85 CDN each tank ?? May be wrong. New > > I think they may be $300??. So that may be another option--but if you > > can get the plastic ones for $35--love those plastic tanks. MarkH > > > http://www.worthingtoncylinders.com/products/Propane/Portables/Aluminum.aspx > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28121|28093|2012-05-11 21:27:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Propane tanks|OK thanks. On 12/05/2012 1:13 p.m., Brian Stannard wrote: > > 15 year life stated on my 2 fiberglass tanks. > > | 28122|28093|2012-05-12 00:26:14|Mark Hamill|Re: Propane tanks|You can increase the life of the steel tanks by adding plastic moulding along the bottom flange. There is some tough stuff that we used and i cant recall the "real" name of it--a plastic moulding meant for edges--anyway repainting the bottoms and installing this stuff lasted for years. So another cheap alternative. But you have to keep your eye on the bottom finish because some places won't fill tanks with rust--many won't care. I have seen tanks next to the dumpsters in marinas leaking propane out of rusted bottoms. which i found lying next to the dumpster myself in the morning after drinking too much beer and having gas leak out of own my rusted bottom. ha ha (its an age thing)?? MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Propane tanks > What is the certified life on the fiberglass tanks? Are they worth the > extra money? The reason I ask is because with a bit of care the regular > steel tanks last 10 years and after that I have to throw them out > because no one in NZ will fill them. They always read the date and > re-certifying them is too costly. I can get a new tank for about $40 > trade in with the old expired tank. > > Paul > > On 12/05/2012 12:29 p.m., Mark Hamill wrote: >> >> Have used the fiberglass tanks on rental/charter boats for several >> years and they are great. Personaly have Worthington 35 lb. capacity >> aluminum tanks that were modified by a propane dealer from the >> lie-down forklift tanks to an upright tank. I got them for free and I >> think about 8 years ago it was $85 CDN each tank ?? May be wrong. New >> I think they may be $300??. So that may be another option--but if you >> can get the plastic ones for $35--love those plastic tanks. MarkH >> http://www.worthingtoncylinders.com/products/Propane/Portables/Aluminum.aspx >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 28123|2152|2012-05-12 10:27:32|SHANE ROTHWELL|Propane bottles|the propane bottles I use don't have overflow valves but I was told by a propane guy to chill the recieving bottle as much as possible.   I put the bottles I want to fill in the freezer, the bottle I'm filling from in the sun, hook em together, make sure the hose is straight as possible with as vertical a run as possible, THEN invert the upper bottle.     when you pull the recieving bottle out of the freezer you get condensation on the outside of the bottle which immediatly freezes. wear gloves or the skin on your hands will freeze to the bottle until it thaws, not long (on a small bottle) but enuf to burn the skin.   You can then hear the gas flowing into the recieving tank (even with my aweful hearing) and see clearly how much liquid propane is in the recieving tank, at least to start, until the cold bottle warms up.  As the (relatively) warm liquid propane hits the cold recieving bottle it melts the frozen condensation off the outside of the recieving bottle and you can see the level of propane rise with the melting of the condensation on the recieving bottle until it warms up enuf to melt all the frozen  condensation off the outside of the bottle. works a treat! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28124|2152|2012-05-12 17:25:48|brentswain38|Re: Propane bottles|I just filled a tank which is due to expire next month. I think I will go for one exchangeable tank, so I get a new tank each time , and don't have to worry about them rusting. I'll use that one to fill my other tank. If I go south I can still get it refilled down south, then bring it home rusty and exchange it for a new one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > the propane bottles I use don't have overflow valves but I was told by a propane guy to chill the recieving bottle as much as possible. > � > I put the bottles I want to fill in the freezer, the bottle I'm filling from in the sun, hook em together, make sure the hose is straight as possible > with as vertical a run as possible, THEN invert the upper bottle. > � > � > when you pull the recieving bottle out of the freezer you get condensation on the outside of the bottle which immediatly freezes. wear gloves or the skin on your hands will freeze to the bottle until it thaws, not long (on a small bottle) but enuf to burn the skin. > � > You can then hear the gas flowing into the recieving tank (even with my aweful hearing) and see clearly how much liquid propane is in the recieving tank, at least to start, until the cold bottle warms up.� > As the (relatively) warm�liquid propane hits the cold recieving bottle it melts the frozen condensation off the outside�of the recieving bottle and you can see the level of propane rise with the melting of the condensation on the recieving bottle until it warms up enuf to melt all the frozen� condensation off the outside of the bottle. > works a treat! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28125|26545|2012-05-12 17:27:32|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions (about galvanized steel)|Save the galvanized welding for days with a 30 knot wind. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I remember feeling sick and having nose bleeds after welding on the > galvanized toe rail. I had no idea but was much more careful after > that..... > > On 12/05/2012 8:54 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > I got zinc poisoning once, It was mild flue like symptoms. which went > > away in a few days. Temporary, unlike some bad fumes. > > Lack of zinc leads to prostate problems. > > > > > | 28126|28093|2012-05-12 20:28:51|chris123|Re: Propane tanks|Na...that was a one time deal. The vendor just wanted them gone for the price of propane. /ch On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Mark Hamill wrote: > ** > > > So that may be another option--but if you can get the plastic ones for > $35--love those plastic tanks. MarkH > http://www.worthingtoncylinders.com/products/Propane/Portables/Aluminum.aspx > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28127|28127|2012-05-12 20:31:20|Doug Jackson|Looking sort of like a boat.|Got to share this.  We are very excited to see it start looking like a boat!  The fist darts closed up beautifully, with very minor trimming and we're hoping the rest goes as smooth.  We're SO glad we have the cranes. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=434615369883960&set=o.173096646112944&type=1&theater%c2%a0   Peace Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28128|28127|2012-05-13 12:04:18|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Looking sort of like a boat.|Fantastic! ... derives from fantasy, doesn't it? (By the way: ... ever loved those fantasies since stumbling across first time, either casting/machining complicated Hundested spares out of mere guess, either taking the whole bus instead of some sole windows just to drive those home more easily, or building origami a 74" nutshell at all in the middle of quite a remote ghetto in terms of navigability, not to mention the whole rest You hopefully keep sharing ...) Am 13.05.2012 um 02:30 schrieb Doug Jackson: > We are very excited to see it start looking like a boat! http://www.faceboo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28129|28127|2012-05-13 23:29:14|Doug Jackson|Re: Looking sort of like a boat.|Thanks Giuseppe. That's a great summary.  And we'll keep sharing. We love our fantasies and we like exhibitionism too. :)   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Giuseppe Bergman To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Looking sort of like a boat.   Fantastic! ... derives from fantasy, doesn't it? (By the way: ... ever loved those fantasies since stumbling across first time, either casting/machining complicated Hundested spares out of mere guess, either taking the whole bus instead of some sole windows just to drive those home more easily, or building origami a 74" nutshell at all in the middle of quite a remote ghetto in terms of navigability, not to mention the whole rest You hopefully keep sharing ...) Am 13.05.2012 um 02:30 schrieb Doug Jackson: > We are very excited to see it start looking like a boat! http://www.faceboo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28130|26545|2012-05-14 02:48:21|Shane Duncan|Re: Swain for sale in NZ|the water line looks very high is that right? ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 12 May 2012 4:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Swain for sale in NZ For sale in NZ...$95,000 NZD which is about $75,000 USD. I think the name is ULLR and it looks like the stern is extended a bit.  Does anyone know of any other Swains in NZ other than this one and mine (Opus IV)? http://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/ggmb/displayboat.php?list_code=8907&broker1=45 Cheers, Paul ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28131|26545|2012-05-14 15:00:12|Paul Wilson|Re: Swain for sale in NZ|I was thinking the same thing....much higher than mine. On 14/05/2012 6:48 p.m., Shane Duncan wrote: > > the water line looks very high is that right? > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Wilson > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 12 May 2012 4:00 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Swain for sale in NZ > > For sale in NZ...$95,000 NZD which is about $75,000 USD. > > I think the name is ULLR and it looks like the stern is extended a bit. > Does anyone know of any other Swains in NZ other than this one and mine > (Opus IV)? > > http://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/ggmb/displayboat.php?list_code=8907&broker1=45 > > > Cheers, Paul > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 28132|28132|2012-05-14 16:13:16|jonmartins1|Vessel Registration|Anyone here has a cheap way around registering a vessel in a country that you don't have citizenship at?? Residing in NZ, where the authorities are extremely picky regarding trips offshore and requiring a safety inspection that is beyond words of any cruiser that is registered here... specially for our perfectly-fine "homemade" boats that are not signed by a naval architect. Even got in touch with Larry and Lynn Pardey (who always travel on a budget and are also based here in NZ) and they themselves haven't gotten any other way around it apart from having it registered in Canada, where they have citizenship. I've got a Brazilian Passport, but Brazil is a big mess regarding maritime laws and just the same requires a Naval Architect to approve every vessel and a Navy Inspection on the vessel... even at the trial of bribeing officials. I finished rebuilding an old-rusty bucket 2 years ago and have been living the dream cruising around the North Island... but am now getting ready to head up to the South Pacific... Cheers, Jon| 28133|28132|2012-05-14 16:17:30|brentswain38|Re: Vessel Registration|We Canadians have it easy. Any vessel under 20 tons or under ten HP requires zero paperwork and doesn't have to exist on paper. That was the case with my first two boats, which I cruised offshore in. For my current boat I got a K number which is meaningless, but it kept the foreign bureaucrats happy. Web Chiles Sailed his 18 footer around the world with zero registration of any kind, not as long ago. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonmartins1" wrote: > > Anyone here has a cheap way around registering a vessel in a country that you don't have citizenship at?? > > Residing in NZ, where the authorities are extremely picky regarding trips offshore and requiring a safety inspection that is beyond words of any cruiser that is registered here... specially for our perfectly-fine "homemade" boats that are not signed by a naval architect. > > Even got in touch with Larry and Lynn Pardey (who always travel on a budget and are also based here in NZ) and they themselves haven't gotten any other way around it apart from having it registered in Canada, where they have citizenship. > > I've got a Brazilian Passport, but Brazil is a big mess regarding maritime laws and just the same requires a Naval Architect to approve every vessel and a Navy Inspection on the vessel... even at the trial of bribeing officials. > > I finished rebuilding an old-rusty bucket 2 years ago and have been living the dream cruising around the North Island... but am now getting ready to head up to the South Pacific... > > Cheers, > > Jon > | 28134|26545|2012-05-14 16:22:29|brentswain38|Re: Swain for sale in NZ|He has added hundreds of pounds of steel in the stern and on that steel dodger, plus, god knows how much more weight he has added below, and elsewhere on the boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > the water line looks very high is that right? > > > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Wilson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 12 May 2012 4:00 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Swain for sale in NZ > > For sale in NZ...$95,000 NZD which is about $75,000 USD. > > I think the name is ULLR and it looks like the stern is extended a bit.  > Does anyone know of any other Swains in NZ other than this one and mine > (Opus IV)? > > http://www.gulfgroup.co.nz/ggmb/displayboat.php?list_code=8907&broker1=45 > > Cheers, Paul > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28135|28132|2012-05-14 18:43:56|john dean|Re: Vessel Registration|Hello Jon I had a similar problem in that my boat was purchased with Greek papers, to solve the problem just put to sea some evening when nobody is around. Use what ever papers you have until you are some where you can declare your papers lost at sea and pay a reasonable fee to some local authorities to create better papers then you have. --- On Sun, 5/13/12, jonmartins1 wrote: From: jonmartins1 Subject: [origamiboats] Vessel Registration To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, May 13, 2012, 5:53 AM Anyone here has a cheap way around registering a vessel in a country that you don't have citizenship at?? Residing in NZ, where the authorities are extremely picky regarding trips offshore and requiring a safety inspection that is beyond words of any cruiser that is registered here... specially for our perfectly-fine "homemade" boats that are not signed by a naval architect. Even got in touch with Larry and Lynn Pardey (who always travel on a budget and are also based here in NZ) and they themselves haven't gotten any other way around it apart from having it registered in Canada, where they have citizenship. I've got a Brazilian Passport, but Brazil is a big mess regarding maritime laws and just the same requires a Naval Architect to approve every vessel and a Navy Inspection on the vessel... even at the trial of bribeing officials. I finished rebuilding an old-rusty bucket 2 years ago and have been living the dream cruising around the North Island... but am now getting ready to head up to the South Pacific... Cheers, Jon ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28136|26545|2012-05-18 21:16:04|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I did not expect that 240V 40/50A extension cord for a welder is so expensive. New 100 foot 8/3 extension cord will cost about the same as a welder! Price for 8/3 600V cable is about $3-4 per foot (for lousy cable). Better one (industrial grade) is $5-6 per foot. 6/3 cord(cable) even more expensive. I tried to find used one - no luck so far. I may try to find suitable electrical cable at scrap yards accepting wires, but slim chance. Most big scrap yards around do not sell anything to public ;(| 28137|26545|2012-05-18 22:24:10|Paul Wilson|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Moving a welder continually around on your workplace is a pain in the ass. This is one of the reasons that Brent says not to use MIG. I had a short 240 volt cable to the arc welder but used a 50 stinger cable made from good quality battery cable. The ground cable was about 15 feet long and it clamped to the closest bit of the boat (skeg). Once set up the welder was never moved from the corner of the shed/shop. The 50 foot battery cable was expensive but it was later chopped up and used in the boat for the battery and alternator wiring which you will need to buy anyway. Paul On 19/05/2012 1:16 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > I did not expect that 240V 40/50A extension cord for a welder is so > expensive. > > New 100 foot 8/3 extension cord will cost about the same as a welder! > Price for 8/3 600V cable is about $3-4 per foot (for lousy cable). > Better one (industrial grade) is $5-6 per foot. 6/3 cord(cable) even > more expensive. > > I tried to find used one - no luck so far. I may try to find suitable > electrical cable at scrap yards accepting wires, but slim chance. Most > big scrap yards around do not sell anything to public ;( > > | 28138|26545|2012-05-18 23:31:09|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Paul, you reminded me that I need welding cable as well. My welder came with ~3ft ground and ~5ft stinger cable. Need to get a longer one for welding a boat. Even my welder is very light and portable, 240V extension cord is primarily for reaching 240V power source - no choice. I probably can use this cable later (if it is a good cable like SOOW type) to connect to shore power or for high voltage wiring inside the boat. P.S. If used welder has long welding cables and comes with long extension cord, cost of the cables alone may be worth of asking price ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Moving a welder continually around on your workplace is a pain in the > ass. This is one of the reasons that Brent says not to use MIG. I had a > short 240 volt cable to the arc welder but used a 50 stinger cable made > from good quality battery cable. The ground cable was about 15 feet long > and it clamped to the closest bit of the boat (skeg). Once set up the > welder was never moved from the corner of the shed/shop. The 50 foot > battery cable was expensive but it was later chopped up and used in the > boat for the battery and alternator wiring which you will need to buy > anyway. > > Paul > > On 19/05/2012 1:16 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > I did not expect that 240V 40/50A extension cord for a welder is so > > expensive. > > | 28139|26545|2012-05-19 02:14:21|Paul Wilson|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|What kind of welder do you want to buy or did you buy? For example a 200 amp single phase inverter welder shouldn't normally draw 50 amps. More like 40 amps max??? A standard old AC buzz box welder is less efficient and will draw more. If I remember right, I had a 50 or 60 amp breaker on my 230 amp buzz box. Anyway, I doubt that you need to get an 8/3 or 6/3 power cable....that seems huge. You would need to confirm but at the duty cycles we weld at I think you could probably get away with 10/3. I am assuming that you are in North America, land of the fat power cord :). Paul On 19/05/2012 3:31 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Paul, you reminded me that I need welding cable as well. My welder > came with ~3ft ground and ~5ft stinger cable. Need to get a longer one > for welding a boat. > > Even my welder is very light and portable, 240V extension cord is > primarily for reaching 240V power source - no choice. I probably can > use this cable later (if it is a good cable like SOOW type) to connect > to shore power or for high voltage wiring inside the boat. > > P.S. If used welder has long welding cables and comes with long > extension cord, cost of the cables alone may be worth of asking price ;) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Moving a welder continually around on your workplace is a pain in the > > ass. This is one of the reasons that Brent says not to use MIG. I had a > > short 240 volt cable to the arc welder but used a 50 stinger cable made > > from good quality battery cable. The ground cable was about 15 feet > long > > and it clamped to the closest bit of the boat (skeg). Once set up the > > welder was never moved from the corner of the shed/shop. The 50 foot > > battery cable was expensive but it was later chopped up and used in the > > boat for the battery and alternator wiring which you will need to buy > > anyway. > > > > Paul > > > > On 19/05/2012 1:16 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > I did not expect that 240V 40/50A extension cord for a welder is so > > > expensive. > > > > > | 28140|26545|2012-05-19 09:02:30|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I had an electrician test my 205 amp inverter MIG welder and it was only drawing 30 amps. He said 12/3 was all I needed. Tested it on the stick function as well and at full volts for the MiG (30 v) and full amps for the stick (160 amp). James --- On Sat, 5/19/12, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, May 19, 2012, 2:13 AM What kind of welder do you want to buy or did you buy? For example a 200 amp single phase inverter welder shouldn't normally draw 50 amps. More like 40 amps max??? A standard old AC buzz box welder is less efficient and will draw more. If I remember right, I had a 50 or 60 amp breaker on my 230 amp buzz box. Anyway, I doubt that you need to get an 8/3 or 6/3 power cable....that seems huge. You would need to confirm but at the duty cycles we weld at I think you could probably get away with 10/3. I am assuming that you are in North America, land of the fat power cord :). Paul On 19/05/2012 3:31 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Paul, you reminded me that I need welding cable as well. My welder > came with ~3ft ground and ~5ft stinger cable. Need to get a longer one > for welding a boat. > > Even my welder is very light and portable, 240V extension cord is > primarily for reaching 240V power source - no choice. I probably can > use this cable later (if it is a good cable like SOOW type) to connect > to shore power or for high voltage wiring inside the boat. > > P.S. If used welder has long welding cables and comes with long > extension cord, cost of the cables alone may be worth of asking price ;) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Moving a welder continually around on your workplace is a pain in the > > ass. This is one of the reasons that Brent says not to use MIG. I had a > > short 240 volt cable to the arc welder but used a 50 stinger cable made > > from good quality battery cable. The ground cable was about 15 feet > long > > and it clamped to the closest bit of the boat (skeg). Once set up the > > welder was never moved from the corner of the shed/shop. The 50 foot > > battery cable was expensive but it was later chopped up and used in the > > boat for the battery and alternator wiring which you will need to buy > > anyway. > > > > Paul > > > > On 19/05/2012 1:16 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > I did not expect that 240V 40/50A extension cord for a welder is so > > > expensive. > > > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28141|26545|2012-05-19 09:07:28|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I bought 40' of cable with two 240 volt 50 amp plugs for I think $70. That was 12 gage wire. James --- On Fri, 5/18/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, May 18, 2012, 9:16 PM   I did not expect that 240V 40/50A extension cord for a welder is so expensive. New 100 foot 8/3 extension cord will cost about the same as a welder! Price for 8/3 600V cable is about $3-4 per foot (for lousy cable). Better one (industrial grade) is $5-6 per foot. 6/3 cord(cable) even more expensive. I tried to find used one - no luck so far. I may try to find suitable electrical cable at scrap yards accepting wires, but slim chance. Most big scrap yards around do not sell anything to public ;( [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28142|26545|2012-05-19 09:12:28|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Some of the inverters are so small it is no problem moving them around. Some of them are not much bigger then a lunch box. I think it might be better to add an extension cord them longer welding leads. James --- On Sat, 5/19/12, James Pronk wrote: From: James Pronk Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, May 19, 2012, 9:02 AM   I had an electrician test my 205 amp inverter MIG welder and it was only drawing 30 amps. He said 12/3 was all I needed. Tested it on the stick function as well and at full volts for the MiG (30 v) and full amps for the stick (160 amp). James > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28143|28143|2012-05-19 12:59:47|Doug Jackson|Hate welding overhead?|Hate welding overhead?  Me too. :) http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=438914352787395%c2%a0 Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28144|26545|2012-05-19 13:16:44|Darren Bos|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Paul is right, I have 185Amp inverter welder in my garage. The line to the garage is 10 gauge and is around 160' long and serves the lights as well as the welder. I have yet to trip the 30 amp breaker. This was the reason I bought an inverter syle welder wat that the extra spent on the welder saved a bunch compared to upgrading the wiring. Darren At 11:13 PM 18/05/2012, you wrote: >What kind of welder do you want to buy or did you buy? For example a 200 >amp single phase inverter welder shouldn't normally draw 50 amps. More >like 40 amps max??? A standard old AC buzz box welder is less efficient >and will draw more. If I remember right, I had a 50 or 60 amp breaker on >my 230 amp buzz box. > >Anyway, I doubt that you need to get an 8/3 or 6/3 power cable....that >seems huge. You would need to confirm but at the duty cycles we weld at >I think you could probably get away with 10/3. I am assuming that you >are in North America, land of the fat power cord :). > >Paul > >On 19/05/2012 3:31 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > Paul, you reminded me that I need welding cable as well. My welder > > came with ~3ft ground and ~5ft stinger cable. Need to get a longer one > > for welding a boat. > > > > Even my welder is very light and portable, 240V extension cord is > > primarily for reaching 240V power source - no choice. I probably can > > use this cable later (if it is a good cable like SOOW type) to connect > > to shore power or for high voltage wiring inside the boat. > > > > P.S. If used welder has long welding cables and comes with long > > extension cord, cost of the cables alone may be worth of asking price ;) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Moving a welder continually around on your workplace is a pain in the > > > ass. This is one of the reasons that Brent says not to use MIG. I had a > > > short 240 volt cable to the arc welder but used a 50 stinger cable made > > > from good quality battery cable. The ground cable was about 15 feet > > long > > > and it clamped to the closest bit of the boat (skeg). Once set up the > > > welder was never moved from the corner of the shed/shop. The 50 foot > > > battery cable was expensive but it was later chopped up and used in the > > > boat for the battery and alternator wiring which you will need to buy > > > anyway. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 19/05/2012 1:16 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > > > I did not expect that 240V 40/50A extension cord for a welder is so > > > > expensive. > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 28145|26545|2012-05-19 13:32:42|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|This land of fat power cords (North America) has TOO many different cord's type. I just hate it! Many household power cords (rated for 110V) have rating J (up to 300V). Cords for 240V have rating 600V. Some information to look for when choosing extension cord or cable (type): www.desertelectric.com/pdf/power_cord_glossary.pdf http://www.delcowireus.com/sow-cable-oil-and-water-resistance.php My 240V inverter welder has 6-50 plug (for 240V 50A equipment). Max input current 37.5A P.S. There are many 240V plugs (different amperage and patterns) configurations as well, which adds more confusion when choosing extension cord. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Anyway, I doubt that you need to get an 8/3 or 6/3 power cable....that > seems huge. You would need to confirm but at the duty cycles we weld at > I think you could probably get away with 10/3. I am assuming that you > are in North America, land of the fat power cord :). > > Paul | 28146|26545|2012-05-19 14:36:22|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Manual for my welder has different information on different pages: - recommended circuit breaker 30A (based on no more than 200% of the rated input amperage) - Minimum Primary Current size - 230V/50A - Current and duty cycle - 200A/28V@45% - Maximum Input current - 37.5A - Effective Input current - 25.1A So, now I have to verify what wire size for extension cord I need by myself ;) Wire size requirements for continuous load (appliances @ 100% duty cycle) and welders are different: Wire size for 100% duty cycle: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm For welders (National Electrical Code article 630-11 page 454): http://www.mfranzen.ca/prof/docs/ec11/t/nec_1999.pdf B. Arc Welders 630-11. Ampacity of Supply Conductors. The ampacity of conductors for arc welders shall be as follows. (a) Individual Welders. The ampacity of the supply conductors shall not be less than the I1eff value on the rating plate. Alternatively, if the I1eff is not given, the ampacity of the supply conductors shall not be less than the current value determined by multiplying the rated primary current in amperes given on the welder rating plate and the following factor based on the duty cycle of the welder. Multiplier for Arc Welders Nonmotor Motor Duty Cycle Generator Generator 100 1.00 1.00 90 0.95 0.96 80 0.89 0.91 70 0.84 0.86 60 0.78 0.81 50 0.71 0.75 40 0.63 0.69 30 0.55 0.62 20 or less 0.45 0.55 So... According to this, amperage should NOT be LESS than 25.1A, or 37.5A * 0.71 (for 50% duty cycle) = 26.6A Using this link find closest (bigger) wire size for current=26.6A for power transmission: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm Wires: #8 - 24A , #7 - 30A, #6 - 37A. May be it is very conservative, but... Most common wire sizes are #8 and #6 (not #7). So... More likely #8 will be OK for my welder and will be able to handle other 240V equipment up to 24A with 100% duty cycle (I need to check maximum recommended amperage rating for different types of cables). Amperage rating is DIFFERENT for different types of wires! (I saw 40A and 50A rating for different types of #8 cable). P.S. #12 - 9.3A, #10 - 15A. Price for #10 cord is almost the same as for #8. #8 in most cases has 600V rating, #10 may have 300V or 600V rating. P.S.S. If duty cycle for the welder is less, you may get away with smaller wires (amperage adjustment according above table), just be sure you pick cable with 600V rating for 240V welder. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I had an electrician test my 205 amp inverter MIG welder and it was only drawing 30 amps. > He said 12/3 was all I needed. Tested it on the stick function as well and at full volts for the MiG (30 v) and full amps for the stick (160 amp). > James | 28147|26545|2012-05-19 15:53:35|Aaron|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Wild Go to Home Depot and get 50 foot of  6- 3 wire get the plugs for the outlet you are going to plug into and the same set for the other end and the machine. Good for 100 amp service. Then you will have a courd that can be used for higher service if ever needed and will have better resell value when the boat is done and no longer needed. Aaron ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)   Manual for my welder has different information on different pages: - recommended circuit breaker 30A (based on no more than 200% of the rated input amperage) - Minimum Primary Current size - 230V/50A - Current and duty cycle - 200A/28V@45% - Maximum Input current - 37.5A - Effective Input current - 25.1A So, now I have to verify what wire size for extension cord I need by myself ;) Wire size requirements for continuous load (appliances @ 100% duty cycle) and welders are different: Wire size for 100% duty cycle: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm For welders (National Electrical Code article 630-11 page 454): http://www.mfranzen.ca/prof/docs/ec11/t/nec_1999.pdf B. Arc Welders 630-11. Ampacity of Supply Conductors. The ampacity of conductors for arc welders shall be as follows. (a) Individual Welders. The ampacity of the supply conductors shall not be less than the I1eff value on the rating plate. Alternatively, if the I1eff is not given, the ampacity of the supply conductors shall not be less than the current value determined by multiplying the rated primary current in amperes given on the welder rating plate and the following factor based on the duty cycle of the welder. Multiplier for Arc Welders Nonmotor Motor Duty Cycle Generator Generator 100 1.00 1.00 90 0.95 0.96 80 0.89 0.91 70 0.84 0.86 60 0.78 0.81 50 0.71 0.75 40 0.63 0.69 30 0.55 0.62 20 or less 0.45 0.55 So... According to this, amperage should NOT be LESS than 25.1A, or 37.5A * 0.71 (for 50% duty cycle) = 26.6A Using this link find closest (bigger) wire size for current=26.6A for power transmission: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm Wires: #8 - 24A , #7 - 30A, #6 - 37A. May be it is very conservative, but... Most common wire sizes are #8 and #6 (not #7). So... More likely #8 will be OK for my welder and will be able to handle other 240V equipment up to 24A with 100% duty cycle (I need to check maximum recommended amperage rating for different types of cables). Amperage rating is DIFFERENT for different types of wires! (I saw 40A and 50A rating for different types of #8 cable). P.S. #12 - 9.3A, #10 - 15A. Price for #10 cord is almost the same as for #8. #8 in most cases has 600V rating, #10 may have 300V or 600V rating. P.S.S. If duty cycle for the welder is less, you may get away with smaller wires (amperage adjustment according above table), just be sure you pick cable with 600V rating for 240V welder. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I had an electrician test my 205 amp inverter MIG welder and it was only drawing 30 amps. > He said 12/3 was all I needed. Tested it on the stick function as well and at full volts for the MiG (30 v) and full amps for the stick (160 amp). > James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28148|26545|2012-05-19 16:12:17|Paul Wilson|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|You make my head spin..... On 20/05/2012 6:36 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Manual for my welder has different information on different pages: > - recommended circuit breaker 30A (based on no more than 200% of the > rated input amperage) > - Minimum Primary Current size - 230V/50A > - Current and duty cycle - 200A/28V@45% > - Maximum Input current - 37.5A > - Effective Input current - 25.1A > > So, now I have to verify what wire size for extension cord I need by > myself ;) > > Wire size requirements for continuous load (appliances @ 100% duty > cycle) and welders are different: > > Wire size for 100% duty cycle: > > http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm > > For welders (National Electrical Code article 630-11 page 454): > > http://www.mfranzen.ca/prof/docs/ec11/t/nec_1999.pdf > > B. Arc Welders 630-11. > > Ampacity of Supply Conductors. The ampacity > of conductors for arc welders shall be as follows. > (a) Individual Welders. The ampacity of the supply conductors > shall not be less than the I1eff value on the rating > plate. > > Alternatively, if the I1eff is not given, the ampacity of > the supply conductors shall not be less than the current > value determined by multiplying the rated primary current > in amperes given on the welder rating plate and the following > factor based on the duty cycle of the welder. > > Multiplier for Arc Welders > Nonmotor Motor > Duty Cycle Generator Generator > 100 1.00 1.00 > 90 0.95 0.96 > 80 0.89 0.91 > 70 0.84 0.86 > 60 0.78 0.81 > 50 0.71 0.75 > 40 0.63 0.69 > 30 0.55 0.62 > 20 or less 0.45 0.55 > > So... According to this, amperage should NOT be LESS than 25.1A, or > 37.5A * 0.71 (for 50% duty cycle) = 26.6A > > Using this link find closest (bigger) wire size for current=26.6A for > power transmission: > > http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm > > Wires: #8 - 24A , #7 - 30A, #6 - 37A. May be it is very conservative, > but... Most common wire sizes are #8 and #6 (not #7). > > So... More likely #8 will be OK for my welder and will be able to > handle other 240V equipment up to 24A with 100% duty cycle (I need to > check maximum recommended amperage rating for different types of > cables). Amperage rating is DIFFERENT for different types of wires! (I > saw 40A and 50A rating for different types of #8 cable). > > P.S. #12 - 9.3A, #10 - 15A. Price for #10 cord is almost the same as > for #8. #8 in most cases has 600V rating, #10 may have 300V or 600V > rating. > > P.S.S. If duty cycle for the welder is less, you may get away with > smaller wires (amperage adjustment according above table), just be > sure you pick cable with 600V rating for 240V welder. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , James Pronk wrote: > > > > I had an electrician test my 205 amp inverter MIG welder and it was > only drawing 30 amps. > > He said 12/3 was all I needed. Tested it on the stick function as > well and at full volts for the MiG (30 v) and full amps for the stick > (160 amp). > > James > > | 28149|26545|2012-05-19 17:37:42|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Thanks Aaron. I was looking at Home Depot website. Usually it does not have enough information about the products. But I found the specs on manufacturer's website: Serrowire SOOW type Cable (extra hard usage on industrial equipment, heavy tools, battery chargers, portable lights, welding leads, *** marine dockside power ***, power extensions, and mining applications) Continuous amperage rating for this 600V SOOW cable is in the table: http://www.cerrowire.com/files/file/43%20cmd%20SOOW_Blk%201-13-2011.pdf 6/3 - 55A 8/3 - 40A 10/3 - 30A 12/3 - 25A There is another brand of SOOW cable at HD too, but I was unable to find any specs for it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Wild > Go to Home Depot and get 50 foot of  6- 3 wire get the plugs for the outlet you are going to plug into and the same set for the other end and the machine. Good for 100 amp service. > Then you will have a courd that can be used for higher service if ever needed and will have better resell value when the boat is done and no longer needed. > > Aaron | 28150|26545|2012-05-19 19:18:21|Robert Jones|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|110(120): In the US, a shop wall outlet that is built to code uses a 20 amp receptacle , and homes require 15 amps. That 30 amp breaker is supposed to be drawn down by more one item being plugged or wired into it. Not a 30 amp welder. 30 amp 110(120) receptacles have one horizontal and one vertical prong and ground,are usually specialty installs, and would be installed into either a larger breaker with larger carrier wire, taking into account for line loss, or a 30 if the plug was right outside the breaker box. 220(240) : As for those, there are a number of variations on the market. I can think of at least 20 different ones. It really does not matter as long as you know that specific plugs and receptacles are made to transfer different amperage's. A normal home dryer plug requires a 30amp plug set. A Lincoln 225(crackerbox) requires a 50 amp set. Remember that a 220 system does not transfer 220, but 110(120) x 2(two 110 and a neutral and sometimes, if 4 wire, a ground) I met a certified electrician once that tried to argue the case for me to have each wire from box to plug to hold 50 amps. He was working on percentage of job cost and a single 50 amp wire costs at least twice that of one designed to carry! I started this comment to  simplify, but reading back, may actually confuse more. I have dealt with welding and electricity for 45 years and would be glad to help any of you with you welding, welder, location, or other issues. I have a really neat way to make an overhead revolving hanger for your mig system that will allow it to be moved the length of the shop by tugging it along while it runs a track overhead and allows you free line movement. Also, if you are a table welder, you can rig something similar to the way a car wash wand works and have the gun hanging close at all times. A simple, but good caddy works well also. And remember, all but the cheapest of wire welders offer longer lead and even spool guns that supply aluminum or steel and allow for a much longer lead. It all depends on how nice you want to go. I always valued my time a lot, so i figured that if i could spend 50 extra dollars to save one hour, then the rest is gravy. Any help i can be to any of you! p.s. I have had terrible experience with the cheaper, Chinese made, welding equipment, and do not buy used without the help of a friendly welder to advise. A saw a man buy a 400 amp Miller Wire welder, nearly new, from a welding shop foreclosure. It had 100 foot leads and was awesome. He stole it for around $1100 dollars. It retailed 5 years prior for somewhere around 14K. He got it home and it had 5 wires coming out the back. He called and electirician who asked if he had 3 Phase service. He said, what is 3 phase.........???? His estimate for the utility company to run and additional line to his shop, which is required for 3-Phase was $27,000.  And for anyone with ideas of a phase converter, just price one for 400 amps!! Know what you are buying, Please!! --- On Sat, 5/19/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 19, 2012, 3:37 PM   Thanks Aaron. I was looking at Home Depot website. Usually it does not have enough information about the products. But I found the specs on manufacturer's website: Serrowire SOOW type Cable (extra hard usage on industrial equipment, heavy tools, battery chargers, portable lights, welding leads, *** marine dockside power ***, power extensions, and mining applications) Continuous amperage rating for this 600V SOOW cable is in the table: http://www.cerrowire.com/files/file/43%20cmd%20SOOW_Blk%201-13-2011.pdf 6/3 - 55A 8/3 - 40A 10/3 - 30A 12/3 - 25A There is another brand of SOOW cable at HD too, but I was unable to find any specs for it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Wild > Go to Home Depot and get 50 foot of  6- 3 wire get the plugs for the outlet you are going to plug into and the same set for the other end and the machine. Good for 100 amp service. > Then you will have a courd that can be used for higher service if ever needed and will have better resell value when the boat is done and no longer needed. > > Aaron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28151|26545|2012-05-19 22:42:46|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Wiring Welding Equipment)|I am not certified electrician, but... Let's clarify it... USA: For 1 phase electrical service: 110/115/120V - 3 wires (Hot, Neutral, Ground) 120V/240V (120V combined with 240V) - 4 wires (Hot, Hot, Neutral, Ground) 240V - 3 wires (Hot, Hot, Ground/Neutral) 240V service DOES provide 240V. But it is different setup than in Europe. 240V 1 phase residential power is 3-wire, single-phase, mid-point neutral system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power Additional Quote: Most residences receive 220-240 volt single phase electricity with a grounded center-tapped neutral, the purpose being to limit voltage to ground to less than 150 volts from either "hot" End of quote The confusion comes from the fact that Sub-panel for 120V/240V requires 4 wire cable (Hot, Hot, Neutral, Ground), when MAIN panel needs just 3 wires (Hot, Hot, Neutral/Ground). There is something about saving copper, reducing wire size in this USA's set-up for 120V load, but I do not want event touch such subject ;)). We are talking about Single phase 240V (USA) service anyway. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > 220(240) : > A Lincoln 225(crackerbox) requires a 50 amp set. Remember that a 220 system does not transfer 220, but 110(120) x 2(two 110 and a neutral and sometimes, if 4 wire, a ground) I met a certified electrician once that tried to argue the case for me to have each wire from box to plug to hold 50 amps. He was working on percentage of job cost and a single 50 amp wire costs at least twice that of one designed to carry! | 28152|28143|2012-05-19 23:21:06|Matt Malone|Re: Hate welding overhead?|Doug, would your cranes be able to roll the hull upside down onto its decks for you to weld the two halves together from the outside, and the keels ? My welding is pretty bad on anything where neither piece of metal is flat. Inside corners, outside corners, where one of the two pieces is flat, no problem. I re-oriented everything so there was something flat. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 09:59:46 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead? Hate welding overhead? Me too. :) http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=438914352787395 Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28153|28143|2012-05-20 00:29:05|Doug Jackson|Re: Hate welding overhead?|Maybe; but that would be a couple of tons over the design limit with just both sides. I'm going to need some practice, or find a real welder.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 10:21 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead? Doug, would your cranes be able to roll the hull upside down onto its decks for you to weld the two halves together from the outside, and the keels ? My welding is pretty bad on anything where neither piece of metal is flat.  Inside corners, outside corners, where one of the two pieces is flat, no problem.  I re-oriented everything so there was something flat.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 09:59:46 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead?                         Hate welding overhead?  Me too. :) http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=438914352787395 Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28154|28143|2012-05-20 07:24:51|James Pronk|Re: Hate welding overhead?|If you were stick welding it it would be no problem with a 6011 or 7018 rod. If you want to mig it, you might need to use a smaller wire and make sure you are using the right gas, wire combination. I find using a whip helps some times to. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28155|26545|2012-05-20 08:30:21|Robert Jones|Re: Basic welding questions (Wiring Welding Equipment)| This is certified electrician. I checked my voltages and have the same 117 and 234 as below. All 220/240 appliances and equipment in US will run safely on a range between 220 and 240. There is no functional difference, and the number of wires to get 220/240 is always only 3. The 4th wire in some circuits is to supply 110/120 to the same machine/appliance. The difference between 110, 115(as they refer to it here) and 120 are the volts that come in on each "Pole" from the power company. There are either 2 or 3 wires and a naked ground coming into your meter box. If two then single  phase, if 3 then 3 phase. 2 Phase or dual phase is not something found in the US now that Split phase(two 110/120) are used for light commercial instead of 2 phase. This is certified electrician. "In some areas of the county it is 220 and some areas it can be 240, It is the same as saying 110 or 120 volts, in our area it is 117 volts, and 234 volts. I am under the impression the newer installations are running more in the 120/240 range, if your voltage is above 120/240 or below 110/220 then your operating out of normal voltages. Now for the quick explanation of 240 / 220 volt house current; Appliances which use straight 240 current (such as electric water heaters, or rotary phase converters) also have three wires: 1) A black wire which is often known as the "hot" wire, which carries the current in to the fixture. 2) Another "hot" wire which may be blue, red or white (if it is white the code actually requires it to painted or otherwise marked one of the other colors, but often it is not) which also carries current in to the fixture. 3) A bare copper wire called the ground, the sole function of which is to enhance user safety. That's it, no neutral. Now, if you are paying attention, then you are probably wondering "If there isn't a neutral wire then how is the circuit completed?" The answer is that when one hot wire is negative, then the other is positive, so the two hot wires complete the circuit together because they are "out of phase". This is why 240 volt circuits connect to double pole breakers that are essentially two single pole breakers tied together. In the main panel, every other breaker is out of phase with the adjoining breakers. So, in essence 240 volt wiring is powered by 2 - 120 volt hot wires that are 180 degrees out of phase. I previously mentioned "straight" 240 volt appliances, but there is another class of 240 volt equipment; some appliances (such as clothes dryers and ranges) use 240 volt current to power their main function (drying clothes or cooking food) but use 120 volt current to power accessories such as the clock on your stove or the light inside the oven, or the digital readout on your dryer controls. That is why some 240 volt circuits have four wires: 1) A black wire which is often known as the "hot" wire, which carries the current in to the fixture. 2) Another "hot" wire which is red, which also carries current in to the fixture. 3) A white wire called the neutral which completes the electrical circuit for the 120 volt accessories only. 4) A bare copper wire called the ground, the sole function of which is to enhance user safet At one time, the code allowed for one insulated wire to function as both ground and neutral in 120 / 240 volt combo circuits, but now all such circuits must use the 4 wire scheme. This is why your new dryer (or electric range) might have 4 prongs on its plug and your old dryer receptacle only has 3 holes. In which case article 250.140 of the 2005 N.E.C. (National Electric Code) allows for the "pigtail" (the cord and plug assembly) to be changed to match the old 3 wire receptacle as long as certain conditions are met. The National Electric Code allows that, but your local code might not, so check first, or even better yet make a deal with the appliance dealer to do it for you. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28156|26545|2012-05-20 08:56:42|Robert Jones|Re: Basic welding questions (Wiring Welding Equipment)|A correction for my last post. The info was from an electrician. I am not he. Just passing along info. Sorry, sometimes i have a little "part-timers". Last night my wife was at work and called to get a number from my cell phone. I got up to look for the phone as i asked her about her day. I told her, i could not find the phone and that i would call her back with the number. She asked " Aren't you talking to me on your phone"? DUH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28157|28143|2012-05-20 09:51:58|Doug Jackson|Re: Hate welding overhead?|Thanks James.  I'll give the 6011 stick a try. What size rod would you suggest?   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: Origami Boats Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead?   If you were stick welding it it would be no problem with a 6011 or 7018 rod. If you want to mig it, you might need to use a smaller wire and make sure you are using the right gas, wire combination. I find using a whip helps some times to. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28158|26545|2012-05-20 11:21:35|coreyzzzz2000|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I learned this trick from a friend; if you buy the cable off the roll at the local hardware store it will be much more expensive. Instead, I bought a 220V RV extension cord. It is 10-3 and about 40 feet. I've been using this for 4 years now with no issues- using a Lincoln 220v MIG and getting very good quality welds. The cord is better quality than what they sell in bulk, plus it was about 30% cheaper.| 28159|28143|2012-05-20 13:25:30|James Pronk|Re: Hate welding overhead?|1/8" should be fine. James --- On Sun, 5/20/12, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead? To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Sunday, May 20, 2012, 9:51 AM   Thanks James.  I'll give the 6011 stick a try. What size rod would you suggest?   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: Origami Boats Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead?   If you were stick welding it it would be no problem with a 6011 or 7018 rod. If you want to mig it, you might need to use a smaller wire and make sure you are using the right gas, wire combination. I find using a whip helps some times to. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28160|28143|2012-05-20 13:32:11|Aaron|Re: Hate welding overhead?|Remember to weld to you.. If you weld away from yourself the rod gets shorter and your arm gets longer! Not to mention keeping out from under the falling sparks. I found 5/32 to work better, more area filled, but one must still be carefull of heat distortion. Aaron ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:25 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead?   1/8" should be fine. James --- On Sun, 5/20/12, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead? To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Sunday, May 20, 2012, 9:51 AM   Thanks James.  I'll give the 6011 stick a try. What size rod would you suggest?   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: Origami Boats Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead?   If you were stick welding it it would be no problem with a 6011 or 7018 rod. If you want to mig it, you might need to use a smaller wire and make sure you are using the right gas, wire combination. I find using a whip helps some times to. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28161|28143|2012-05-20 14:47:16|Doug Jackson|Re: Hate welding overhead?|Ok.  Thank you both.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Aaron To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead?   Remember to weld to you.. If you weld away from yourself the rod gets shorter and your arm gets longer! Not to mention keeping out from under the falling sparks. I found 5/32 to work better, more area filled, but one must still be carefull of heat distortion. Aaron ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:25 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead?   1/8" should be fine. James --- On Sun, 5/20/12, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead? To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Sunday, May 20, 2012, 9:51 AM   Thanks James.  I'll give the 6011 stick a try. What size rod would you suggest?   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: Origami Boats Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hate welding overhead?   If you were stick welding it it would be no problem with a 6011 or 7018 rod. If you want to mig it, you might need to use a smaller wire and make sure you are using the right gas, wire combination. I find using a whip helps some times to. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28162|28162|2012-05-20 15:30:45|Rogerio Secco|plans sailor origami system...|mi scuzi la domanda, peró dove trovo progeto de barche vela origami, cerco 26, 28 magari 30 piedes... grazie Secco Rogerio| 28163|28162|2012-05-20 15:33:05|Alex Christie|Re: plans sailor origami system...|Ciao Roger, Brent Swain ha disegni per imbarcazioni da 26 piedi a 31 piedi, 36 piedi e 40 piedi. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Rogerio Secco" wrote: > > mi scuzi la domanda, peró dove trovo progeto de barche vela origami, cerco 26, 28 magari 30 piedes... > grazie > Secco Rogerio > | 28164|28143|2012-05-20 17:39:23|brentswain38|Re: Hate welding overhead?|With the hull deck joint, you wouldn't want to weld it overhead. If you weld a piece of 1/8th inch plate to a piece of 3/16th plate, with 1/8th inch 7024, the weld is thicker than the 1/8th. You can't get it to break on the weld , only on the thinner 1/8th inch plate. Try it. Evan has warped the shit out of some 36 footers, in the bow, by welding both sides there. The reason? More welding means more pay for him. \ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Hate welding overhead?  Me too. :) > > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=438914352787395%c2%a0 > > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28165|26545|2012-05-20 17:41:38|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I once welded up a 36 using 12-3 cable 80 ft long using 225 amps. No problem --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I had an electrician test my 205 amp inverter MIG welder and it was only drawing 30 amps. > He said 12/3 was all I needed. Tested it on the stick function as well and at full volts for the MiG (30 v) and full amps for the stick (160 amp). > James > --- On Sat, 5/19/12, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > From: Paul Wilson > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Saturday, May 19, 2012, 2:13 AM > > > What kind of welder do you want to buy or did you buy? For example a 200 > amp single phase inverter welder shouldn't normally draw 50 amps. More > like 40 amps max??? A standard old AC buzz box welder is less efficient > and will draw more. If I remember right, I had a 50 or 60 amp breaker on > my 230 amp buzz box. > > Anyway, I doubt that you need to get an 8/3 or 6/3 power cable....that > seems huge. You would need to confirm but at the duty cycles we weld at > I think you could probably get away with 10/3. I am assuming that you > are in North America, land of the fat power cord :). > > Paul > > On 19/05/2012 3:31 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > Paul, you reminded me that I need welding cable as well. My welder > > came with ~3ft ground and ~5ft stinger cable. Need to get a longer one > > for welding a boat. > > > > Even my welder is very light and portable, 240V extension cord is > > primarily for reaching 240V power source - no choice. I probably can > > use this cable later (if it is a good cable like SOOW type) to connect > > to shore power or for high voltage wiring inside the boat. > > > > P.S. If used welder has long welding cables and comes with long > > extension cord, cost of the cables alone may be worth of asking price ;) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Moving a welder continually around on your workplace is a pain in the > > > ass. This is one of the reasons that Brent says not to use MIG. I had a > > > short 240 volt cable to the arc welder but used a 50 stinger cable made > > > from good quality battery cable. The ground cable was about 15 feet > > long > > > and it clamped to the closest bit of the boat (skeg). Once set up the > > > welder was never moved from the corner of the shed/shop. The 50 foot > > > battery cable was expensive but it was later chopped up and used in the > > > boat for the battery and alternator wiring which you will need to buy > > > anyway. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 19/05/2012 1:16 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > > > I did not expect that 240V 40/50A extension cord for a welder is so > > > > expensive. > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28166|26545|2012-05-20 18:51:09|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Wild, When I was an electrical contractor I sometimes needed a long cord for a welder, but I’ve never owned one. I’ve always use aerial cable, two insulated aluminum conductors with a bare aluminum messenger, and no jacket. Real light weight, and cheap too because it has no copper in it. We had rolls of #4 or #2 several hundred feet long. All the talk here about the amp ratings is kind of off the target. What you care about is voltage drop, which is calculated per amp per foot of cable. One of the reasons inverter welders became popular is because they are light weight so you can easily move them close to the weld. The primary (high voltage) wire is then the longer wire A 10 volt drop on a primary at 240 volts and 40 amps would be only a 4% drop. A 10 volt drop at 36 volts and 120 amps would be nearly a 25% drop! Voltage drop matters because it makes the rod ‘sticky’ when striking an arc. If the voltage drops, the current drops too, and there isn’t enough energy to quickly start the arc. So having long leads on a welder is actually bad. Short leads can be smaller, and easier to work with too. Gary H. Lucas From: wild_explorer Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 9:16 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) I did not expect that 240V 40/50A extension cord for a welder is so expensive. New 100 foot 8/3 extension cord will cost about the same as a welder! Price for 8/3 600V cable is about $3-4 per foot (for lousy cable). Better one (industrial grade) is $5-6 per foot. 6/3 cord(cable) even more expensive. I tried to find used one - no luck so far. I may try to find suitable electrical cable at scrap yards accepting wires, but slim chance. Most big scrap yards around do not sell anything to public ;( Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28167|28143|2012-05-20 20:07:40|Doug Jackson|Re: Hate welding overhead?|That's good to know. Is there anything you do to the un-welded side of the plate to prevent it from being a crevice where rust might start?   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:39 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hate welding overhead?   With the hull deck joint, you wouldn't want to weld it overhead. If you weld a piece of 1/8th inch plate to a piece of 3/16th plate, with 1/8th inch 7024, the weld is thicker than the 1/8th. You can't get it to break on the weld , only on the thinner 1/8th inch plate. Try it. Evan has warped the shit out of some 36 footers, in the bow, by welding both sides there. The reason? More welding means more pay for him. \ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Hate welding overhead?  Me too. :) > > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=438914352787395%c2%a0 > > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28168|26545|2012-05-20 22:40:25|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Wiring Welding Equipment)|I have noticed that it is recommended to keep welding leads as short as possible (because of EMF). Power cord has less amperage and Low (50/60Hz) frequency - which is OK. Welding leads have much higher amperage and High (because of arc) frequency - which is not good at all. You are absolutely right about voltage drop. I think that all amperage rating for wires is based on voltage_drop/per_length at Max current anyway. I took another look at the manual... My inverter welder has 12/3 factory fitted cord (OK for effective input current 25A). But it has 6-50 plug. 100ft 12/3 SOOW 600V cable cost (~$100/spool). Based on 40A Max Input current @ 240V, voltage drop for 12AWG 100ft extension cable will be about 13V (or 5.5%). So, I may get away with this 12/3 cable and use it later for shore power, or wiring inside a boat. As Paul said, it is better to be able to use cable later (after welding job is done) for the boat. Serves double purpose and saves money. I would prefer 10/3 (30A) or 8/3 (40A), but it cost much more. Need to make a compromise ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > So having long leads on a welder is actually bad. Short leads can be smaller, and easier to work with too. > > Gary H. Lucas | 28169|26545|2012-05-21 08:27:01|Robert Jones|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|That's a really good idea. Those, for the most part are 50 amp cords and the good ones take a lot of abuse and flex well for their size! --- On Sun, 5/20/12, coreyzzzz2000 wrote: From: coreyzzzz2000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, May 20, 2012, 9:21 AM   I learned this trick from a friend; if you buy the cable off the roll at the local hardware store it will be much more expensive. Instead, I bought a 220V RV extension cord. It is 10-3 and about 40 feet. I've been using this for 4 years now with no issues- using a Lincoln 220v MIG and getting very good quality welds. The cord is better quality than what they sell in bulk, plus it was about 30% cheaper. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28170|28143|2012-05-21 14:26:17|haidan|Re: Hate welding overhead?|A whip? never tried that, does Kay hold the whip or Doug? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > If you were stick welding it it would be no problem with a 6011 or 7018 rod. If you want to mig it, you might need to use a smaller wire and make sure you are using the right gas, wire combination. I find using a whip helps some times to. > James > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28171|28143|2012-05-21 20:17:33|Doug Jackson|Re: Hate welding overhead?|LOL. Whipping will take some practice.  We're amateurs so we only do floggers for now.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: haidan To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 1:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hate welding overhead?   A whip? never tried that, does Kay hold the whip or Doug? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > If you were stick welding it it would be no problem with a 6011 or 7018 rod. If you want to mig it, you might need to use a smaller wire and make sure you are using the right gas, wire combination. I find using a whip helps some times to. > James > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28172|28143|2012-05-21 20:39:39|James Pronk|Re: Hate welding overhead?|Doug welds, Kay whips while yelling obsenities! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28173|28143|2012-05-21 22:59:07|Doug Jackson|Re: Hate welding overhead?|You're onto it.  But it's getting the job done. :)  I'll finish the chines on the first half in the morning.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: Origami Boats Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hate welding overhead?   Doug welds, Kay whips while yelling obsenities! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28174|28174|2012-05-22 12:03:13|Jim Ragsdale|furring strips|What kind of wood does everyone use for furring strips? Also what is a good thickness to use? Thanks, Jim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28175|28175|2012-05-22 19:40:27|chris123|Steel Boat Inspection|Greets: Today I took the day off and went down to my favorite yard. Its one of those places where there are few questions asked and everyone just gets down to business. So Im walking through the yard and I see this steel boat sitting on a cradle at 36ft. Asked the marina owner whom Ive known for a few years, what up with her as she's new around here. "Lad owes me money, I'd like to see her gone" Hmm Ok So I crawl inside to find a 50hp perkins that seems to be running well attached to a very nice 3 blade prop. The rest of the boat looks as if someone used a chainsaw to cut up remnant 1x6 cedar to cover the inside. Not really important to me however as its the condition of the hull thats important. The boat has been entirely foamed and there in lies my problem and one that I am seeking advice on. How to do you inspect a boat like this for rust on the inside. She has been foamed everywhere from what I can tell except in the bilges. Here the steel looks to be covered with an expoy tar type material. Its black and rather thick but not tacky. Given that the rest of the boat has been foamed the only thing I can think of is to hire a surveyor to test the metal with a probe/meter to determine its thickness. (ultrasound?) The only other method I can think of is to use a solvent to melt off the foam in test patches and take a look at the condition of the hull. Its not an origami boat, so I hope you dont mind me asking the question. Its where the latitudinals meet the cross braces or bulkheads, where rust typically starts as water or moisture has no where to flow in a non origami design. So to sum it up, what would be the best way to inspect this vessel. Im only interested in the integrity of the hull nothing more. The rest I can do myself. Im kinda interested in this vessel as the price is right if she checks out. Best regards and many thanks -- /ch| 28176|28175|2012-05-22 21:45:22|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Tapping with a small rubber hammer -- and listening carefully for uniformity, or gradual changes, can give you a sense of the health of the hull between sample points. Hire a surveyor. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: chris.herrnberger@... Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 19:40:25 -0400 Subject: [origamiboats] Steel Boat Inspection Greets: Today I took the day off and went down to my favorite yard. Its one of those places where there are few questions asked and everyone just gets down to business. So Im walking through the yard and I see this steel boat sitting on a cradle at 36ft. Asked the marina owner whom Ive known for a few years, what up with her as she's new around here. "Lad owes me money, I'd like to see her gone" Hmm Ok So I crawl inside to find a 50hp perkins that seems to be running well attached to a very nice 3 blade prop. The rest of the boat looks as if someone used a chainsaw to cut up remnant 1x6 cedar to cover the inside. Not really important to me however as its the condition of the hull thats important. The boat has been entirely foamed and there in lies my problem and one that I am seeking advice on. How to do you inspect a boat like this for rust on the inside. She has been foamed everywhere from what I can tell except in the bilges. Here the steel looks to be covered with an expoy tar type material. Its black and rather thick but not tacky. Given that the rest of the boat has been foamed the only thing I can think of is to hire a surveyor to test the metal with a probe/meter to determine its thickness. (ultrasound?) The only other method I can think of is to use a solvent to melt off the foam in test patches and take a look at the condition of the hull. Its not an origami boat, so I hope you dont mind me asking the question. Its where the latitudinals meet the cross braces or bulkheads, where rust typically starts as water or moisture has no where to flow in a non origami design. So to sum it up, what would be the best way to inspect this vessel. Im only interested in the integrity of the hull nothing more. The rest I can do myself. Im kinda interested in this vessel as the price is right if she checks out. Best regards and many thanks -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28177|28175|2012-05-22 21:57:34|martin demers|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|I have bought an ultrasound thickness meter on ebay for under $200.00 This way you can do your own inspection by yourself and save a lot of $$$$. Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 21:45:21 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel Boat Inspection > > > > Tapping with a small rubber hammer -- and listening carefully for uniformity, or gradual changes, can give you a sense of the health of the hull between sample points. Hire a surveyor. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: chris.herrnberger@... > Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 19:40:25 -0400 > Subject: [origamiboats] Steel Boat Inspection > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greets: > > > > Today I took the day off and went down to my favorite yard. Its one of > > those places where there are few questions asked and everyone just > > gets down to business. So Im walking through the yard and I see this > > steel boat sitting on a cradle at 36ft. Asked the marina owner whom > > Ive known for a few years, what up with her as she's new around here. > > "Lad owes me money, I'd like to see her gone" Hmm Ok So I crawl inside > > to find a 50hp perkins that seems to be running well attached to a > > very nice 3 blade prop. The rest of the boat looks as if someone used > > a chainsaw to cut up remnant 1x6 cedar to cover the inside. Not really > > important to me however as its the condition of the hull thats > > important. > > > > The boat has been entirely foamed and there in lies my problem and one > > that I am seeking advice on. > > > > How to do you inspect a boat like this for rust on the inside. She has > > been foamed everywhere from what I can tell except in the bilges. Here > > the steel looks to be covered with an expoy tar type material. Its > > black and rather thick but not tacky. Given that the rest of the boat > > has been foamed the only thing I can think of is to hire a surveyor to > > test the metal with a probe/meter to determine its thickness. > > (ultrasound?) > > > > The only other method I can think of is to use a solvent to melt off > > the foam in test patches and take a look at the condition of the hull. > > Its not an origami boat, so I hope you dont mind me asking the > > question. Its where the latitudinals meet the cross braces or > > bulkheads, where rust typically starts as water or moisture has no > > where to flow in a non origami design. > > > > So to sum it up, what would be the best way to inspect this vessel. Im > > only interested in the integrity of the hull nothing more. The rest I > > can do myself. Im kinda interested in this vessel as the price is > > right if she checks out. > > > > Best regards and many thanks > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28178|28175|2012-05-22 22:12:41|Chris H|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|On 05/22/2012 09:57 PM, martin demers wrote: > I have bought an ultrasound thickness meter on ebay for under $200.00 > This way you can do your own inspection by yourself and save a lot of $$$$. > > Martin Thanks guys....good advice. Being a neophite and equipment being what you pay for any recommendations from this list? http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=ultrasonic+thickness&_nkwusc=Utrasonic+thichness&_rdc=1 Best and mucho thanks /ch| 28179|28175|2012-05-22 22:31:35|martin demers|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|The one I bought is similar to: TM 8811 Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: chris.herrnberger@... Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 22:12:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel Boat Inspection On 05/22/2012 09:57 PM, martin demers wrote: > I have bought an ultrasound thickness meter on ebay for under $200.00 > This way you can do your own inspection by yourself and save a lot of $$$$. > > Martin Thanks guys....good advice. Being a neophite and equipment being what you pay for any recommendations from this list? http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=ultrasonic+thickness&_nkwusc=Utrasonic+thichness&_rdc=1 Best and mucho thanks /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28180|28175|2012-05-22 22:33:17|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|I have used ultrasound. If the hull were a simple eggshell, no stringers or frames or stiffeners, sure, it would be a lot easier. Certainly the hull going below a minimum thickness is important. How about checking for the welds between frames and hull ? The bond between steel and foam? Even with an a-scan display -- a reflection strength vs. distance graph: http://www.ob-ultrasound.net/images/A_scan.jpg is not trivial to interpret. That was a medical scan. A materials scan is noisier. A gauge that shows only one number is not good -- it is showing you the A reflection of the B reflection ? Can you look at the health of a weld-bond between parts ? Not really. With a graph, tapping on the hull with a rubber hammer might cause hairline cracks to open and close, showing appearing and disappearing reflections Ultrasound needs experience or some training, insight and a lot of time, to check for even many problems. A digital thickness gauge may identify an easily identified lemon with a substantial amount of thinning from inside corrosion. Hey, $200 is a good investment for that reason, but it is not going to replace a surveyor, or a lot of better ultrasound. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mdemers2005@... Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 21:57:32 -0400 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel Boat Inspection I have bought an ultrasound thickness meter on ebay for under $200.00 This way you can do your own inspection by yourself and save a lot of $$$$. Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 21:45:21 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel Boat Inspection > > > > Tapping with a small rubber hammer -- and listening carefully for uniformity, or gradual changes, can give you a sense of the health of the hull between sample points. Hire a surveyor. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: chris.herrnberger@... > Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 19:40:25 -0400 > Subject: [origamiboats] Steel Boat Inspection > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greets: > > > > Today I took the day off and went down to my favorite yard. Its one of > > those places where there are few questions asked and everyone just > > gets down to business. So Im walking through the yard and I see this > > steel boat sitting on a cradle at 36ft. Asked the marina owner whom > > Ive known for a few years, what up with her as she's new around here. > > "Lad owes me money, I'd like to see her gone" Hmm Ok So I crawl inside > > to find a 50hp perkins that seems to be running well attached to a > > very nice 3 blade prop. The rest of the boat looks as if someone used > > a chainsaw to cut up remnant 1x6 cedar to cover the inside. Not really > > important to me however as its the condition of the hull thats > > important. > > > > The boat has been entirely foamed and there in lies my problem and one > > that I am seeking advice on. > > > > How to do you inspect a boat like this for rust on the inside. She has > > been foamed everywhere from what I can tell except in the bilges. Here > > the steel looks to be covered with an expoy tar type material. Its > > black and rather thick but not tacky. Given that the rest of the boat > > has been foamed the only thing I can think of is to hire a surveyor to > > test the metal with a probe/meter to determine its thickness. > > (ultrasound?) > > > > The only other method I can think of is to use a solvent to melt off > > the foam in test patches and take a look at the condition of the hull. > > Its not an origami boat, so I hope you dont mind me asking the > > question. Its where the latitudinals meet the cross braces or > > bulkheads, where rust typically starts as water or moisture has no > > where to flow in a non origami design. > > > > So to sum it up, what would be the best way to inspect this vessel. Im > > only interested in the integrity of the hull nothing more. The rest I > > can do myself. Im kinda interested in this vessel as the price is > > right if she checks out. > > > > Best regards and many thanks > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28181|28175|2012-05-22 22:52:35|chris123|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > Ultrasound needs experience or some training, insight and a lot of time, to check for even many problems.   A digital thickness gauge may identify an easily identified lemon with a substantial amount of thinning from inside corrosion.  Hey, $200 is a good investment for that reason, but it is not going to replace a surveyor, or a lot of better ultrasound. I agree with everything you have written here. The only question is can a solid experienced surveyor be found locally familiar with steel boats. Most of the surveys Ive read were for plastic boats and well lets just say Im not impressed, lots of stuff gets missed. Hence I always go through a boat myself and take a day to do it, _if allowed too_ by the seller. Best regards and thanks for the advise guys....my concern is its a nice bruce roberts design and they have lots and lots of steel inside unlike origami boats, where rust can start. The asking price is basically a gift, cost of the engine rebuild a 50hp perkins, if she is reasonably solid. Hence my interest, otherwise I would not even consider it. What makes this a challenge is the foam insulation... /ch| 28182|28175|2012-05-22 23:32:47|David Jones|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|There are some problems with ultrasound not being mentioned. If you want to get a good signal, and especially if you are looking for corrosion pitting in the inside surface of the hull, you have to remove the paint on the outside where you are putting the ultrasound probe. If you don't do this, what you will get is a reflection at the paint/steel interface, a reflection at the inner surface of the steel and you may get some interference reflections from coatings on the inner surface of the hull. So to be able to intrepret your signal, you have to have a clean smooth bare steel outter surface to put your probe on. You think the owner is going to let you do that? If yes, then it can be a good technique. You do need a lot of experience running ultrasound for the work you are looking to do. I'd pay a professional, and I know how to run ultrasound... The mallet and listening to the sound of the hull can be pretty good. But it won't pick up pitting corrosion unless it's a large area. Your best bet is to remove some insulation in some strategic locations on the inside. Once foam is set, it doesn't dissolve well in solvents, depending upon exactly what kind it is. Acetone is probably the best solvent for it generally. I think I'd rather mechanically remove an area. If you have rusting under it on the hull, it probably isn't adheared well... In both cases, you need to have the owners permission, and likely a -patch it back up- plan that is satisfactory to the owner. dj On Tue, 22 May 2012, chris123 wrote: > > > On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > Ultrasound needs experience or some training, insight and a lot of time, to check for even > many problems.   A digital thickness gauge may identify an easily identified lemon with a > substantial amount of thinning from inside corrosion.  Hey, $200 is a good investment for that > reason, but it is not going to replace a surveyor, or a lot of better ultrasound. > > I agree with everything you have written here. The only question is > can a solid experienced surveyor be found locally familiar with steel > boats. Most of the surveys Ive read were for plastic boats and well > lets just say Im not impressed, lots of stuff gets missed. Hence I > always go through a boat myself and take a day to do it, _if allowed > too_ by the seller. > > Best regards and thanks for the advise guys....my concern is its a > nice bruce roberts design and they have lots and lots of steel inside > unlike origami boats, where rust can start. The asking price is > basically a gift, cost of the engine rebuild a 50hp perkins, if she is > reasonably solid. Hence my interest, otherwise I would not even > consider it. What makes this a challenge is the foam insulation... > > /ch > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28183|28175|2012-05-22 23:35:20|chris123|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Im going to grab the ebook version of this book in the morning Looks like the kind of thing that would be useful at this point. http://www.yachtwork.com/book-repair.htm given this thread.... http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/steel-boat-inspection-21176.html thanks /ch| 28184|28175|2012-05-23 05:17:28|mauro gonzaga|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Gentlemen. I am Surveyor for boiler and pressure vessel. Familiar with nondestructive examination methods. Ultrasonic inspection is effective for thk. below 1/2 inch, not really applicable to 1/4 in thk. of a steel hull. Use UT thk.gauge to verify thickness only. Don't think you may verify quality of fillet welds of frames to shell, from outside. I would clean the inside from foam in critical areas and visually examine. Butt welds adjoining plates may be examined from outside for cracks using penetrant testing: it is an easy method available to everybody. It consists in a pressurized can with a red color penetrant which shall be applied over a clean surface, left 10 minutes at least than washed with course jet of water (no pressure), cleaned and dried with paper. Then spay the content of the second can consisting in absorbent white powder in a volatile liquid. Spray a thin coat. Once dried the white will enhance red spots of penetrant flowing out from porosity or cracks. To verify the volume of weld for internal flaws you should ask for radiographic examination: it is less expensive than you might think, but it depends where the hull is because of the safety regulations, but I would be happy if the surface is free from defects using penetrant testing above. Mauro.   ________________________________ From: chris123 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 4:52 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel Boat Inspection   On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > Ultrasound needs experience or some training, insight and a lot of time, to check for even many problems.   A digital thickness gauge may identify an easily identified lemon with a substantial amount of thinning from inside corrosion.  Hey, $200 is a good investment for that reason, but it is not going to replace a surveyor, or a lot of better ultrasound. I agree with everything you have written here. The only question is can a solid experienced surveyor be found locally familiar with steel boats. Most of the surveys Ive read were for plastic boats and well lets just say Im not impressed, lots of stuff gets missed. Hence I always go through a boat myself and take a day to do it, _if allowed too_ by the seller. Best regards and thanks for the advise guys....my concern is its a nice bruce roberts design and they have lots and lots of steel inside unlike origami boats, where rust can start. The asking price is basically a gift, cost of the engine rebuild a 50hp perkins, if she is reasonably solid. Hence my interest, otherwise I would not even consider it. What makes this a challenge is the foam insulation... /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28185|28185|2012-05-23 07:24:34|James Pronk|Measurments|I am working on my deck plates right now and a couple of the measurments fall on the folded seem of the drawing and can no longer be made out. I am looking for the amount of overlap of the two side deck plates and the width of the deck at that point? It looks like 2' 2 3/4". Thank you! James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28186|28185|2012-05-23 07:24:34|James Pronk|Measurments|I am working on my deck plates right now and a couple of the measurments fall on the folded seem of the drawing and can no longer be made out. I am looking for the amount of overlap of the two side deck plates and the width of the deck at that point? It looks like 2' 2 3/4". Thank you! James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28187|28175|2012-05-23 09:21:16|mkriley48|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|chris, As a skipper and maintainer of steel boats i would suggest that you examine the places most likely to rust like the bilges, forepeak,, cockpit lockers,lazerette. the is lots of strength in a steel boat even one shot full of holes and bad welds. It sounds like it is coated with coal tar and foamed so if the foam is bonded and cannot be pulled off by hand I would not worry about it. What I would worry about is if the hull is reasonably fair as this can be done by anybody that can follow simple instructions in the welding order. If this is badly warped it shows ignorance of the whole process and I would wonder if the simple stuff is not done right what about the hard stuff. I would be leery of changes to the original plans also. That said it is easy to fix and very forgiving. The bruce roberts sprays are known to be slow. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Im going to grab the ebook version of this book in the morning Looks > like the kind of thing that would be useful at this point. > > http://www.yachtwork.com/book-repair.htm > > given this thread.... > > http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/steel-boat-inspection-21176.html > > thanks > > /ch > | 28188|28175|2012-05-23 09:33:24|Mark Hamill|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|A note on surveyors--there are some pretty bad ones around--like house inspectors. Find out who is recommended for good inspections and for your construction type. If somebody recommends one find out why. Some are recommended because they are very thorough others because they just tell the insurance company that everything is fine without doing any work to determine what is really going on. There used to be a guy on Van Isle called Dr. Death that the boat sellers hated because he always found the problems. However for a good buying price you can probably overlook things you might otherwise be concerned at--I know I did. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28189|28175|2012-05-23 10:16:08|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Dye penetrant is very visual, a great way to look for cracks in metal. Not sure how it would work on a properly painted boat. It would make me feel better to use it on stainless and galvanized rigging bits.... replacing those is not an inconsiderable expense. I would certainly use it where I thought I saw a crack -- sometimes it is not, but if it is, the penetrant will make it really obvious. Removing paint can improve ultrasound, and I consider it on areas I had reason to suspect, but that is not practical for a wider survey. As good as ultrasound can be, the audible sounds from a rubber hammer require no paint to be removed, and can be done quickly or methodically, depending on how much time you are given with it. It can provide you with a certain personal confidence. Removing some foam I think is a given. I would favour mechanical removal. Removing a wine-cork sized piece might reveal that the epoxy tar continues under the foam. Depending on the price, that might be enough for you. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: maurogonzaga1940@... Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 02:17:25 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel Boat Inspection Gentlemen. I am Surveyor for boiler and pressure vessel. Familiar with nondestructive examination methods. Ultrasonic inspection is effective for thk. below 1/2 inch, not really applicable to 1/4 in thk. of a steel hull. Use UT thk.gauge to verify thickness only. Don't think you may verify quality of fillet welds of frames to shell, from outside. I would clean the inside from foam in critical areas and visually examine. Butt welds adjoining plates may be examined from outside for cracks using penetrant testing: it is an easy method available to everybody. It consists in a pressurized can with a red color penetrant which shall be applied over a clean surface, left 10 minutes at least than washed with course jet of water (no pressure), cleaned and dried with paper. Then spay the content of the second can consisting in absorbent white powder in a volatile liquid. Spray a thin coat. Once dried the white will enhance red spots of penetrant flowing out from porosity or cracks. To verify the volume of weld for internal flaws you should ask for radiographic examination: it is less expensive than you might think, but it depends where the hull is because of the safety regulations, but I would be happy if the surface is free from defects using penetrant testing above. Mauro. ________________________________ From: chris123 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 4:52 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel Boat Inspection On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > Ultrasound needs experience or some training, insight and a lot of time, to check for even many problems. A digital thickness gauge may identify an easily identified lemon with a substantial amount of thinning from inside corrosion. Hey, $200 is a good investment for that reason, but it is not going to replace a surveyor, or a lot of better ultrasound. I agree with everything you have written here. The only question is can a solid experienced surveyor be found locally familiar with steel boats. Most of the surveys Ive read were for plastic boats and well lets just say Im not impressed, lots of stuff gets missed. Hence I always go through a boat myself and take a day to do it, _if allowed too_ by the seller. Best regards and thanks for the advise guys....my concern is its a nice bruce roberts design and they have lots and lots of steel inside unlike origami boats, where rust can start. The asking price is basically a gift, cost of the engine rebuild a 50hp perkins, if she is reasonably solid. Hence my interest, otherwise I would not even consider it. What makes this a challenge is the foam insulation... /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28190|28175|2012-05-23 10:48:35|chris123|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Thanks all for the input......shes a simple 36 not a spray. Only caviate is the rudder is hung off the transom and the keel. The original design for these called for a rudder tube. Still need to do lots of homework before I make up my mind on this...the asking price is rediculousely low, the yard manager is owed money on this boat and so its all pretty tempting. She remains a project for sure and need to consider very carefully if I want to tackle this. The benefit is that yard fees are less then 600 a year. So properly covered and protected she could sit for while once the hull is stabilized. This is one of those things that pops out of now where. Could be good, could be not so good....:) /ch On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 9:20 AM, mkriley48 wrote: > ** > > > chris, > As a skipper and maintainer of steel boats i would suggest that you > examine the places most likely to rust like the bilges, > forepeak,, cockpit lockers,lazerette. the is lots of strength in a steel > boat even one shot full of holes and bad welds. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28191|28175|2012-05-23 11:10:17|Aaron|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Worst thing is you could salvage what you can use to build a Brent boat and sell the rest as scrap. Aaron ________________________________ From: chris123 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Boat Inspection   Thanks all for the input......shes a simple 36 not a spray. Only caviate is the rudder is hung off the transom and the keel. The original design for these called for a rudder tube. Still need to do lots of homework before I make up my mind on this...the asking price is rediculousely low, the yard manager is owed money on this boat and so its all pretty tempting. She remains a project for sure and need to consider very carefully if I want to tackle this. The benefit is that yard fees are less then 600 a year. So properly covered and protected she could sit for while once the hull is stabilized. This is one of those things that pops out of now where. Could be good, could be not so good....:) /ch On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 9:20 AM, mkriley48 wrote: > ** > > > chris, > As a skipper and maintainer of steel boats i would suggest that you > examine the places most likely to rust like the bilges, > forepeak,, cockpit lockers,lazerette. the is lots of strength in a steel > boat even one shot full of holes and bad welds. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28192|28185|2012-05-23 11:21:28|Aaron|Re: Measurments|James Is that the middle section where the two ends come together? Aaron ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: Origami Boats Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 3:24 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Measurments   I am working on my deck plates right now and a couple of the measurments fall on the folded seem of the drawing and can no longer be made out. I am looking for the amount of overlap of the two side deck plates and the width of the deck at that point? It looks like 2' 2 3/4". Thank you! James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28193|28143|2012-05-23 15:40:03|brentswain38|Re: Hate welding overhead?|With enough penetration and epoxy inside, it has never been a problem. However, if you want to guarantee full penetration, you could always grind a 45 degree angle on the top of the deck plate edge where it meets the hull. Just found another one of my hulls on which the owner screwed up, by not painting the inside with a thick layer of epoxy, before foaming, a major screwup. Primer alone is not enough protection below the foam. Only a thick buildup of epoxy will protect the steel behind the foam. You don't get a second chance at getting it right. Foam is no protection. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > That's good to know. Is there anything you do to the un-welded side of the plate to prevent it from being a crevice where rust might start? >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:39 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hate welding overhead? > > >   > With the hull deck joint, you wouldn't want to weld it overhead. If you weld a piece of 1/8th inch plate to a piece of 3/16th plate, with 1/8th inch 7024, the weld is thicker than the 1/8th. You can't get it to break on the weld , only on the thinner 1/8th inch plate. Try it. > Evan has warped the shit out of some 36 footers, in the bow, by welding both sides there. The reason? More welding means more pay for him. > > \ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > Hate welding overhead?  Me too. :) > > > > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=438914352787395%c3%82%c2%a0 > > > > > > Doug > > > > SVSeeker.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28194|28174|2012-05-23 15:43:58|brentswain38|Re: furring strips|Anything cheap which is had enough to hold a screw well. We use a lot of fir here. 1x4s ( 3/4 inch by 3 1/2 inch) I used 2x 2s on the cabinside deck flange ( 1 1/2" x1 1/2") Shiping pallets work. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > What kind of wood does everyone use for furring strips? Also what is a good > thickness to use? > > > Thanks, > Jim > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28195|28175|2012-05-23 15:49:47|brentswain38|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Drag your fingernails over the foam and listen for hollow spots. That is where you should dig the foam out. If it is hollow , it wont be stuck to the hull anyway. If it is heavily epoxied beneath the foam, the hull is probably sound. Give a centre punch a good whack with the hammer at low points, where rust is likely , like the bottom trailing edge of the keel. If it doesn't dent, there is plenty of steel thickness there. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Greets: > > Today I took the day off and went down to my favorite yard. Its one of > those places where there are few questions asked and everyone just > gets down to business. So Im walking through the yard and I see this > steel boat sitting on a cradle at 36ft. Asked the marina owner whom > Ive known for a few years, what up with her as she's new around here. > "Lad owes me money, I'd like to see her gone" Hmm Ok So I crawl inside > to find a 50hp perkins that seems to be running well attached to a > very nice 3 blade prop. The rest of the boat looks as if someone used > a chainsaw to cut up remnant 1x6 cedar to cover the inside. Not really > important to me however as its the condition of the hull thats > important. > > The boat has been entirely foamed and there in lies my problem and one > that I am seeking advice on. > > How to do you inspect a boat like this for rust on the inside. She has > been foamed everywhere from what I can tell except in the bilges. Here > the steel looks to be covered with an expoy tar type material. Its > black and rather thick but not tacky. Given that the rest of the boat > has been foamed the only thing I can think of is to hire a surveyor to > test the metal with a probe/meter to determine its thickness. > (ultrasound?) > > The only other method I can think of is to use a solvent to melt off > the foam in test patches and take a look at the condition of the hull. > Its not an origami boat, so I hope you dont mind me asking the > question. Its where the latitudinals meet the cross braces or > bulkheads, where rust typically starts as water or moisture has no > where to flow in a non origami design. > > So to sum it up, what would be the best way to inspect this vessel. Im > only interested in the integrity of the hull nothing more. The rest I > can do myself. Im kinda interested in this vessel as the price is > right if she checks out. > > Best regards and many thanks > > > -- > /ch > | 28196|28175|2012-05-23 15:53:57|Matt Malone|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Brent, I remember you mentioning the fingernails trick with foam before, but had completely forgotten. Simple works. An automatic centre punch gives a repeatable punch each time: http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/8351280/Centre/6-in.-Professional-Automatic-Centre-Punch Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 19:49:44 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Boat Inspection Drag your fingernails over the foam and listen for hollow spots. That is where you should dig the foam out. If it is hollow , it wont be stuck to the hull anyway. If it is heavily epoxied beneath the foam, the hull is probably sound. Give a centre punch a good whack with the hammer at low points, where rust is likely , like the bottom trailing edge of the keel. If it doesn't dent, there is plenty of steel thickness there. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Greets: > > Today I took the day off and went down to my favorite yard. Its one of > those places where there are few questions asked and everyone just > gets down to business. So Im walking through the yard and I see this > steel boat sitting on a cradle at 36ft. Asked the marina owner whom > Ive known for a few years, what up with her as she's new around here. > "Lad owes me money, I'd like to see her gone" Hmm Ok So I crawl inside > to find a 50hp perkins that seems to be running well attached to a > very nice 3 blade prop. The rest of the boat looks as if someone used > a chainsaw to cut up remnant 1x6 cedar to cover the inside. Not really > important to me however as its the condition of the hull thats > important. > > The boat has been entirely foamed and there in lies my problem and one > that I am seeking advice on. > > How to do you inspect a boat like this for rust on the inside. She has > been foamed everywhere from what I can tell except in the bilges. Here > the steel looks to be covered with an expoy tar type material. Its > black and rather thick but not tacky. Given that the rest of the boat > has been foamed the only thing I can think of is to hire a surveyor to > test the metal with a probe/meter to determine its thickness. > (ultrasound?) > > The only other method I can think of is to use a solvent to melt off > the foam in test patches and take a look at the condition of the hull. > Its not an origami boat, so I hope you dont mind me asking the > question. Its where the latitudinals meet the cross braces or > bulkheads, where rust typically starts as water or moisture has no > where to flow in a non origami design. > > So to sum it up, what would be the best way to inspect this vessel. Im > only interested in the integrity of the hull nothing more. The rest I > can do myself. Im kinda interested in this vessel as the price is > right if she checks out. > > Best regards and many thanks > > > -- > /ch > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28197|28175|2012-05-23 15:56:46|brentswain38|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Hanging the rudder off the transom is a huge improvement over an inboard rudder, and wont change the balance in any noticeable way. Consider that a plus. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Thanks all for the input......shes a simple 36 not a spray. Only caviate is > the rudder is hung off the transom and the keel. The original design for > these called for a rudder tube. Still need to do lots of homework before I > make up my mind on this...the asking price is rediculousely low, the yard > manager is owed money on this boat and so its all pretty tempting. She > remains a project for sure and need to consider very carefully if I want to > tackle this. The benefit is that yard fees are less then 600 a year. So > properly covered and protected she could sit for while once the hull is > stabilized. This is one of those things that pops out of now where. Could > be good, could be not so good....:) > > /ch > > On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 9:20 AM, mkriley48 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > chris, > > As a skipper and maintainer of steel boats i would suggest that you > > examine the places most likely to rust like the bilges, > > forepeak,, cockpit lockers,lazerette. the is lots of strength in a steel > > boat even one shot full of holes and bad welds. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28198|28175|2012-05-23 16:06:21|brentswain38|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Tell me about it. My last boat was surveyed by a Dutchman named Jan De Groote, who told the prospective buyer that the 5/8th inch turnbuckles and 5/16th high tensile rigging wire were not strong enough for a 29 footer. I later learned that he had told a friend that his 1 1/4 inch SS shaft uprights welded into the hull, with a 1 1/4 inch stainless shaft cleat on top ,were not "Yacht Quality " cleats. He would have preferred cast aluminium, melted down beer cans, held down by some skimpy bolts, as long as it was shiny and "Yachtie " Looking. For him "Yachtieness" and "Trendyness" take priority over structural strength , as he considers status symbol as the primary function of a boat , seaworthiness and logic being secondary, far down his scale of priorities. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > A note on surveyors--there are some pretty bad ones around--like house inspectors. Find out who is recommended for good inspections and for your construction type. If somebody recommends one find out why. Some are recommended because they are very thorough others because they just tell the insurance company that everything is fine without doing any work to determine what is really going on. There used to be a guy on Van Isle called Dr. Death that the boat sellers hated because he always found the problems. However for a good buying price you can probably overlook things you might otherwise be concerned at--I know I did. MarkH > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28199|28143|2012-05-23 16:09:43|Doug Jackson|Re: Hate welding overhead?|Thanks Brent   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:39 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hate welding overhead?   With enough penetration and epoxy inside, it has never been a problem. However, if you want to guarantee full penetration, you could always grind a 45 degree angle on the top of the deck plate edge where it meets the hull. Just found another one of my hulls on which the owner screwed up, by not painting the inside with a thick layer of epoxy, before foaming, a major screwup. Primer alone is not enough protection below the foam. Only a thick buildup of epoxy will protect the steel behind the foam. You don't get a second chance at getting it right. Foam is no protection. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > That's good to know. Is there anything you do to the un-welded side of the plate to prevent it from being a crevice where rust might start? >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:39 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hate welding overhead? > > >   > With the hull deck joint, you wouldn't want to weld it overhead. If you weld a piece of 1/8th inch plate to a piece of 3/16th plate, with 1/8th inch 7024, the weld is thicker than the 1/8th. You can't get it to break on the weld , only on the thinner 1/8th inch plate. Try it. > Evan has warped the shit out of some 36 footers, in the bow, by welding both sides there. The reason? More welding means more pay for him. > > \ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > Hate welding overhead?  Me too. :) > > > > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=438914352787395%c3%82%c2%a0 > > > > > > Doug > > > > SVSeeker.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28200|28175|2012-05-23 16:22:50|Paul Wilson|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|I helped on a delivery of a catamaran in the Caribbean. It had been surveyed before our arrival. The surveyor said there were many voids (blisters) in the fiberglass hull. He had gone all over the outside of the hull with a ball peen hammer, tapping away and marked all the voids with masking tape. We found out later that every spot he marked as a void was a place where the inner core was cut back in order to bond internal structure. It turns out the surveyor couldn't get the keys and had never gone inside the boat. He also never went up the rig and had a look. We found a few cracks and many problems. He had charged for a full survey, given a fair market valuation, and was supposed to be the best.....he was just an oxygen thief. Paul On 24/05/2012 8:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Tell me about it. My last boat was surveyed by a Dutchman named Jan De > Groote, who told the prospective buyer that the 5/8th inch turnbuckles > and 5/16th high tensile rigging wire were not strong enough for a 29 > footer. I later learned that he had told a friend that his 1 1/4 inch > SS shaft uprights welded into the hull, with a 1 1/4 inch stainless > shaft cleat on top ,were not "Yacht Quality " cleats. He would have > preferred cast aluminium, melted down beer cans, held down by some > skimpy bolts, as long as it was shiny and "Yachtie " Looking. > For him "Yachtieness" and "Trendyness" take priority over structural > strength , as he considers status symbol as the primary function of a > boat , seaworthiness and logic being secondary, far down his scale of > priorities. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Mark Hamill" > wrote: > > > > A note on surveyors--there are some pretty bad ones around--like > house inspectors. Find out who is recommended for good inspections and > for your construction type. If somebody recommends one find out why. > Some are recommended because they are very thorough others because > they just tell the insurance company that everything is fine without > doing any work to determine what is really going on. There used to be > a guy on Van Isle called Dr. Death that the boat sellers hated because > he always found the problems. However for a good buying price you can > probably overlook things you might otherwise be concerned at--I know I > did. MarkH > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 28201|28174|2012-05-24 09:15:39|Jim Ragsdale|Re: furring strips|Thanks! On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 2:43 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > Anything cheap which is had enough to hold a screw well. We use a lot of > fir here. 1x4s ( 3/4 inch by 3 1/2 inch) I used 2x 2s on the cabinside deck > flange ( 1 1/2" x1 1/2") Shiping pallets work. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale > wrote: > > > > What kind of wood does everyone use for furring strips? Also what is a > good > > thickness to use? > > > > > > Thanks, > > Jim > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28202|28175|2012-05-24 09:46:14|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Well, as far as the thing is complete and in (even "needs TLC" ... ) working condition now, this might be the way to go some years in future, just in case there popped up an inacceptably serious structural problem then. This way You could start now and You won't have redone Your equipment at all events. Asking the one real assessor might be a nice kick, while experiences like Brent's with this special surveyor of shiny chandlers delights are majority I'm afraid. Am 23.05.2012 um 17:10 schrieb Aaron: > Worst thing is you could salvage what you can use to build a Brent boat and sell the rest as scrap. > > Aaron > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28203|28203|2012-05-24 11:56:18|GP|Zincs...|I have heard that zincs should be replaced when 50% depleted. Others say right down to 90%. Any opinions? Also... if suddenly zincs were not available what would be the alternatives for steel boat owners ? thanks... Gary| 28204|28203|2012-05-24 12:26:50|Mark Hamill|Re: Zincs...|http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/sacrificial-zincs.asp [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28205|28203|2012-05-24 20:36:13|Mark Hamill|Re: Zincs...|On the internet looking at zincs and I found this galvanizing repair stick--would it be of any use?? I notice on my mast that the tangs have stainless inserts welded into them. Would something like this stick offer any protection in a similar situation such as where turnbuckles are attached at the gunnels?? http://www.rotometals.com/Galvanizing-Products-Galvanizing-repair-stick-s/6.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28206|28203|2012-05-24 22:22:45|David Jones|Re: Zincs...|I haven't seen anyone answer your last question. That's a difficult one. Cadmium, lead and aluminum have been used historically for the cathodic protection of steel in a similar manner as zinc. On some pipelines use of a graphite based sacrificial anode I believe has been used. You can use an impressed voltage/current using a power source. Theoretically any material more active on the EMf scale will corrode preferrentially to the more passive member but there are a lot of difficulties in practicle application. The short answer: there isn't a good, practicle alternative. dj On Thu, 24 May 2012, GP wrote: > > > I have heard that zincs should be replaced when 50% depleted. Others say right down to 90%. > Any opinions? > > Also... if suddenly zincs were not available what would be the alternatives for steel boat > owners ? > > thanks... > > Gary > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28207|28203|2012-05-25 00:33:40|Aaron|Re: Zincs...|Aluminum is the next best choice for anodes on steel boats. Not to shur what you could use if you have an aluminum boat. hmmm Aaron ________________________________ From: David Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Zincs...   I haven't seen anyone answer your last question. That's a difficult one. Cadmium, lead and aluminum have been used historically for the cathodic protection of steel in a similar manner as zinc. On some pipelines use of a graphite based sacrificial anode I believe has been used. You can use an impressed voltage/current using a power source. Theoretically any material more active on the EMf scale will corrode preferrentially to the more passive member but there are a lot of difficulties in practicle application. The short answer: there isn't a good, practicle alternative. dj On Thu, 24 May 2012, GP wrote: > > > I have heard that zincs should be replaced when 50% depleted. Others say right down to 90%. > Any opinions? > > Also... if suddenly zincs were not available what would be the alternatives for steel boat > owners ? > > thanks... > > Gary > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28208|28203|2012-05-25 00:47:44|Paul Wilson|Re: Zincs...|I think the reason they say 50% is so that it will last until the next haulout, assuming it used 50% since the last one. I can't see any other reason. I give them a good cleaning and check to see they are sound. If they look OK and if there is enough zinc left, I don't bother changing them. If I couldn't get a zinc, an aluminum plate would probably do..... Cheers, Paul On 25/05/2012 2:22 p.m., David Jones wrote: > > > I haven't seen anyone answer your last question. That's a difficult one. > Cadmium, lead and aluminum have been used historically for the cathodic > protection of steel in a similar manner as zinc. On some pipelines use of > a graphite based sacrificial anode I believe has been used. You can > use an > impressed voltage/current using a power source. > > Theoretically any material more active on the EMf scale will corrode > preferrentially to the more passive member but there are a lot of > difficulties in practicle application. > > The short answer: there isn't a good, practicle alternative. > > dj > > On Thu, 24 May 2012, GP wrote: > > > > > > > I have heard that zincs should be replaced when 50% depleted. Others > say right down to 90%. > > Any opinions? > > > > Also... if suddenly zincs were not available what would be the > alternatives for steel boat > > owners ? > > > > thanks... > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 28209|28203|2012-05-25 12:39:45|wild_explorer|Re: Zincs...|I am not sure if aluminum is a good choice as anode. Does not it suppose to form protective layer on aluminum's surface when it exposed to oxygen? Galvanic corrosion chart (to choose protective anode): http://www.corrosionist.com/galvanic_corrosion_chart.htm --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Aluminum is the next best choice for anodes on steel boats. Not to shur what you could use if you have an aluminum boat. hmmm > > > Aaron | 28210|28203|2012-05-25 13:25:22|Aaron|Re: Zincs...|Under water the electrolsis will still take place Aaron ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 8:39 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zincs...   I am not sure if aluminum is a good choice as anode. Does not it suppose to form protective layer on aluminum's surface when it exposed to oxygen? Galvanic corrosion chart (to choose protective anode): http://www.corrosionist.com/galvanic_corrosion_chart.htm --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Aluminum is the next best choice for anodes on steel boats. Not to shur what you could use if you have an aluminum boat. hmmm > > > Aaron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28211|28203|2012-05-25 16:34:07|mauro gonzaga|Re: Zincs...|In the scale of sacrificial we have: Magnesium (used on alu boats) Zinc Aluminium Alu is good for steel as well but not  efficient as zinc Mauro ________________________________ From: Aaron To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Zincs...   Under water the electrolsis will still take place Aaron ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 8:39 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zincs...   I am not sure if aluminum is a good choice as anode. Does not it suppose to form protective layer on aluminum's surface when it exposed to oxygen? Galvanic corrosion chart (to choose protective anode): http://www.corrosionist.com/galvanic_corrosion_chart.htm --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Aluminum is the next best choice for anodes on steel boats. Not to shur what you could use if you have an aluminum boat. hmmm > > > Aaron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28212|28203|2012-05-25 16:36:16|mauro gonzaga|Re: Zincs...|Alu as sacrificial should be pure alu. the palte is alloy, more resistent and less effective. (I believe) Mauro ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Zincs...   I think the reason they say 50% is so that it will last until the next haulout, assuming it used 50% since the last one. I can't see any other reason. I give them a good cleaning and check to see they are sound. If they look OK and if there is enough zinc left, I don't bother changing them. If I couldn't get a zinc, an aluminum plate would probably do..... Cheers, Paul On 25/05/2012 2:22 p.m., David Jones wrote: > > > I haven't seen anyone answer your last question. That's a difficult one. > Cadmium, lead and aluminum have been used historically for the cathodic > protection of steel in a similar manner as zinc. On some pipelines use of > a graphite based sacrificial anode I believe has been used. You can > use an > impressed voltage/current using a power source. > > Theoretically any material more active on the EMf scale will corrode > preferrentially to the more passive member but there are a lot of > difficulties in practicle application. > > The short answer: there isn't a good, practicle alternative. > > dj > > On Thu, 24 May 2012, GP wrote: > > > > > > > I have heard that zincs should be replaced when 50% depleted. Others > say right down to 90%. > > Any opinions? > > > > Also... if suddenly zincs were not available what would be the > alternatives for steel boat > > owners ? > > > > thanks... > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28213|28203|2012-05-25 21:28:31|wild_explorer|Re: Zincs...|As I remember, Aluminum Oxide (even thin layer) on aluminum wires is a good dielectric. That why Alum wires need special electricity conductive grease to mount it to a circuit breaker, connectors, etc. I think, that why Alum wires were banned from using inside residential buildings (caused fires)??? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Under water the electrolsis will still take place > > > Aaron > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 8:39 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zincs... > > > >   > > I am not sure if aluminum is a good choice as anode. Does not it suppose to form protective layer on aluminum's surface when it exposed to oxygen? > | 28214|28214|2012-05-26 09:14:17|M.J. Malone|Aluminium, electrical connections, fire and corrosion|Yes aluminum forms an oxide when exposed to air. One is not permitted to install aluminium wire in homes in Canada, however, there are many homes in which it was installed when it was legal. With proper connections, than contain a grease-like compound that seals out the air, aluminium wire works just fine. Without those special aluminium wire connections, a connection can built up a little oxide, which causes a little resistance. This small amount of resistance does not change the total resistance in the circuit, which might be serving a a high current appliance. Say the appliance is 120V, 10A, average. Its average DC equivalent resistance is 12 Ohms. Say the connection takes on 0.01 Ohm of resistance. With 10A flowing, that is 0.1V lost at the connection. The appliance will behave no differently if it receives 119.9V. At the connection, 1 Watt of heat is being produced. That does not sound like much heat but a pencil-type soldering iron may be as little as 15 Watts. The connection will warm up. Warming up will cause it to age faster, and build up a little more corrosion. A little more corrosion is more resistance, which is more voltage drop, more Watts, more heat and a hotter connection. This describes an exponential process, apparently very slow changes when the effects are minuscule, however, a constant growth. Say the connection rises to a resistance of 0.1 Ohms. At 10A, that is 1V of drop, still small compared to 120V, but that is 10 Watts of heat, concentrated in a small connection. That is likely to be very warm, maybe even produce a detectable smell. Once an exponential process rises into the range where it is noticeable, it crosses through large, big problem and catastrophe quite quickly. Once a connection hits this sort of resistance, producing 10W, it is not going to last for long. How long until it is 0.3 Ohms? Probably a lot less time than it took to go from 0.01 to 0.1 Ohms. That is 30 Watts, a large soldering iron, running somewhere in an out of the way corner. It will not be long before plastic insulation or other materials ignite. What about flame retardants that a lot of things are treated with? In a sustained heat situation, they boil off. A poor electrical connection on a high current circuit is an inevitable fire. It may cross from undetectable to a problem months or years after it is made. With aluminium wire it is only that it is easier to make a poor connection if one does not use the connection compound/grease. Copper connections in homes are allowed to be dry, but I have seen glowing red hot connections on copper wire, leading to an electric water heater. In marine applications, even road vehicle applications, there is a higher standard for electrical connections, using connection grease even on copper, and wrapping the connection with tape to seal it. If oxygen cannot get in, oxide cannot form. Now for structural applications,we want an oxide on aluminium, but, if oxygen cannot get at the metal, a protective oxide may not form. That is what Aaron was getting at. Underwater aluminium may not have a full oxide layer. That is why an aluminium anode can work underwater, and why they sell magnesium anodes for alimnium boats. Matt wild_explorer wrote: As I remember, Aluminum Oxide (even thin layer) on aluminum wires is a good dielectric. That why Alum wires need special electricity conductive grease to mount it to a circuit breaker, connectors, etc. I think, that why Alum wires were banned from using inside residential buildings (caused fires)??? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Under water the electrolsis will still take place > > > Aaron > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 8:39 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zincs... > > > >  > > I am not sure if aluminum is a good choice as anode. Does not it suppose to form protective layer on aluminum's surface when it exposed to oxygen? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28215|28214|2012-05-26 12:11:26|wild_explorer|Re: Aluminium, electrical connections, fire and corrosion|Matt, Thanks for the clarification. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > > In marine applications, even road vehicle applications, there is a higher standard for electrical connections, using connection grease even on copper, and wrapping the connection with tape to seal it. If oxygen cannot get in, oxide cannot form. > > Now for structural applications,we want an oxide on aluminium, but, if oxygen cannot get at the metal, a protective oxide may not form. That is what Aaron was getting at. Underwater aluminium may not have a full oxide layer. That is why an aluminium anode can work underwater, and why they sell magnesium anodes for alimnium boats. > > Matt | 28216|28185|2012-05-26 18:09:34|brentswain38|Re: Measurments|The front corner of the deck is 5 1/4 inch out of square. The first measurement aft of that , from the straight edge, is 2ft3 inches, then 2 ft 5 1/2 inches, then 2 ft 6 1/2 inches, then 2 ft 6 inches. The aft edge of the foredeck plate is also 5 1/4 inches out of square. The first meaurement given from the straight edge of the aft plate is 2 ft 6 inches from the straight edge, then 2 ft 5 1/4 inch, then 2 ft 4 inches, then 2 ft 1 1/2 inch, then 1 ft 10 1/2 inch Does this answer your question? If not, let me know --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I am working on my deck plates right now and a couple of the measurments fall on the folded seem of the drawing and can no longer be made out. I am looking for the amount of overlap of the two side deck plates and the width of the deck at that point? It looks like 2' 2 3/4". > Thank you! > James > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28217|28203|2012-05-26 18:13:22|brentswain38|Re: Zincs...|I use them til they fall of the straps. They seem to keep working til they do. Mine are gone. Expect to re weld them this summer sometime. No panic. With a twin keelrr you can easily keep an eye on you hull. I salvage them from boat yards and grids, where rich fisherment cut them off prematurely --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > I have heard that zincs should be replaced when 50% depleted. Others say right down to 90%. Any opinions? > > Also... if suddenly zincs were not available what would be the alternatives for steel boat owners ? > > thanks... > > Gary > | 28218|28214|2012-05-26 21:05:55|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Aluminium, electrical connections, fire and corrosion|When used as a sacrificial anode the oxide layer is removed by the the flow of current, which continuously eats away the aluminum. When welding aluminum you use AC because every time the current reverses it breaks up the non-conductive oxide which forms on the puddle. You also can Tig weld aluminum with the tungsten at positive polarity. It is only useful for very thin aluminum as most of the heat is on the tungsten. However the puddle in the weld stays bright and shiny the whole time. Gary H. Lucas From: M.J. Malone Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:10 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminium, electrical connections, fire and corrosion Yes aluminum forms an oxide when exposed to air. One is not permitted to install aluminium wire in homes in Canada, however, there are many homes in which it was installed when it was legal. With proper connections, than contain a grease-like compound that seals out the air, aluminium wire works just fine. Without those special aluminium wire connections, a connection can built up a little oxide, which causes a little resistance. This small amount of resistance does not change the total resistance in the circuit, which might be serving a a high current appliance. Say the appliance is 120V, 10A, average. Its average DC equivalent resistance is 12 Ohms. Say the connection takes on 0.01 Ohm of resistance. With 10A flowing, that is 0.1V lost at the connection. The appliance will behave no differently if it receives 119.9V. At the connection, 1 Watt of heat is being produced. That does not sound like much heat but a pencil-type soldering iron may be as little as 15 Watts. The connection will warm up. Warming up will cause it to age faster, and build up a little more corrosion. A little more corrosion is more resistance, which is more voltage drop, more Watts, more heat and a hotter connection. This describes an exponential process, apparently very slow changes when the effects are minuscule, however, a constant growth. Say the connection rises to a resistance of 0.1 Ohms. At 10A, that is 1V of drop, still small compared to 120V, but that is 10 Watts of heat, concentrated in a small connection. That is likely to be very warm, maybe even produce a detectable smell. Once an exponential process rises into the range where it is noticeable, it crosses through large, big problem and catastrophe quite quickly. Once a connection hits this sort of resistance, producing 10W, it is not going to last for long. How long until it is 0.3 Ohms? Probably a lot less time than it took to go from 0.01 to 0.1 Ohms. That is 30 Watts, a large soldering iron, running somewhere in an out of the way corner. It will not be long before plastic insulation or other materials ignite. What about flame retardants that a lot of things are treated with? In a sustained heat situation, they boil off. A poor electrical connection on a high current circuit is an inevitable fire. It may cross from undetectable to a problem months or years after it is made. With aluminium wire it is only that it is easier to make a poor connection if one does not use the connection compound/grease. Copper connections in homes are allowed to be dry, but I have seen glowing red hot connections on copper wire, leading to an electric water heater. In marine applications, even road vehicle applications, there is a higher standard for electrical connections, using connection grease even on copper, and wrapping the connection with tape to seal it. If oxygen cannot get in, oxide cannot form. Now for structural applications,we want an oxide on aluminium, but, if oxygen cannot get at the metal, a protective oxide may not form. That is what Aaron was getting at. Underwater aluminium may not have a full oxide layer. That is why an aluminium anode can work underwater, and why they sell magnesium anodes for alimnium boats. Matt wild_explorer wrote: As I remember, Aluminum Oxide (even thin layer) on aluminum wires is a good dielectric. That why Alum wires need special electricity conductive grease to mount it to a circuit breaker, connectors, etc. I think, that why Alum wires were banned from using inside residential buildings (caused fires)??? --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Under water the electrolsis will still take place > > > Aaron > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 8:39 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zincs... > > > >  > > I am not sure if aluminum is a good choice as anode. Does not it suppose to form protective layer on aluminum's surface when it exposed to oxygen? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28219|28185|2012-05-26 21:23:48|James Pronk|Re: Measurments|Thank you Brent, that is great! The only time I have these days is after dark so I have been working under 500watt construction lights. The shadows are so bad from one that I am working with two. I think I will add a third. I should be working beside my garden and increasing the growing time for my plants! Thank you once again, James   --- On Sat, 5/26/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Measurments To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, May 26, 2012, 6:09 PM   The front corner of the deck is 5 1/4 inch out of square. The first measurement aft of that , from the straight edge, is 2ft3 inches, then 2 ft 5 1/2 inches, then 2 ft 6 1/2 inches, then 2 ft 6 inches. The aft edge of the foredeck plate is also 5 1/4 inches out of square. The first meaurement given from the straight edge of the aft plate is 2 ft 6 inches from the straight edge, then 2 ft 5 1/4 inch, then 2 ft 4 inches, then 2 ft 1 1/2 inch, then 1 ft 10 1/2 inch Does this answer your question? If not, let me know --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I am working on my deck plates right now and a couple of the measurments fall on the folded seem of the drawing and can no longer be made out. I am looking for the amount of overlap of the two side deck plates and the width of the deck at that point? It looks like 2' 2 3/4". > Thank you! > James > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28220|28175|2012-05-26 23:39:26|Brian Stannard|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Chris Surveyors whose main clientele are yacht owners don't survey steel very often - I would guess a surveyor who regularly surveys commercial vessels might be a better choice for steel. Do you have any pictures? On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 6:46 AM, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > ** > > > Well, as far as the thing is complete and in (even "needs TLC" ... ) > working condition now, this might be the way to go some years in future, > just in case there popped up an inacceptably serious structural problem > then. > > This way You could start now and You won't have redone Your equipment at > all events. > > Asking the one real assessor might be a nice kick, while experiences like > Brent's with this special surveyor of shiny chandlers delights are majority > I'm afraid. > > Am 23.05.2012 um 17:10 schrieb Aaron: > > > > Worst thing is you could salvage what you can use to build a Brent boat > and sell the rest as scrap. > > > > Aaron > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28221|28175|2012-05-27 07:44:01|chris123|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|Going down to the yard later in the week. Its located along Lake Erie in a small port that I found while cruising the lake shore on a Sunday. The only surveyors who are experienced in steel are all in Kingston and they charge mileage. Its a six hr drive with traffic, so that's an extra 600 just to get one down their. Think the list has given me enough info to tackle it myself. The marina manager is very helpful and is trying to find the drawing set that came with the boat. We will see on this one....what can and cannot be done. The teaser on this boat is that yard fees are ridiculously cheap. 650 for the year. So she is totally affordable just sitting there once stabilized. The last thing I need to research is what constitutes a proper pain job on metal both exterior and interior. On the interior I'm pretty sure its some form of epoxy tar based product, then that friggen foam. On the outside, cant really tell so will grab some samples next time I'm down and ask questions. Again, the guy who runs this place used to work for one of the builders in ON prior too the industry collapse. Knowledgeable lad at 74 but looks like 50 something..:) Long hair too....pony tale in the back. Good guy. /ch On Sat, May 26, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Brian Stannard wrote: > Chris > > Surveyors whose main clientele are yacht owners don't survey steel very > often - I would guess a surveyor who regularly surveys commercial vessels > might be a better choice for steel. > > Do you have any pictures? > > On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 6:46 AM, Giuseppe Bergman > wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> Well, as far as the thing is complete and in (even "needs TLC" ... ) >> working condition now, this might be the way to go some years in future, >> just in case there popped up an inacceptably serious structural problem >> then. >> >> This way You could start now and You won't have redone Your equipment at >> all events. >> >> Asking the one real assessor might be a nice kick, while experiences like >> Brent's with this special surveyor of shiny chandlers delights are majority >> I'm afraid. >> >> Am 23.05.2012 um 17:10 schrieb Aaron: >> >> >> > Worst thing is you could salvage what you can use to build a Brent boat >> and sell the rest as scrap. >> > >> > Aaron >> > >> > >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > > > > -- > Cheers > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- /ch| 28222|28214|2012-05-27 17:47:29|wild_explorer|Re: Aluminium, electrical connections, fire and corrosion|Practical question. If pickup truck has bolted-on toolbox made from aluminum alloy, will it protect steel of the car and act as sacrificial anode? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > When used as a sacrificial anode the oxide layer is removed by the the flow of current, which continuously eats away the aluminum. > > Gary H. Lucas > | 28223|28223|2012-05-27 19:05:07|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Aluminum, electrical connections, fire and corrosion|No as the dissimilar metals have to be suspended in an electrolyte to maintain a constant electrical circuit. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wild_explorer Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 5:47 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminium, electrical connections, fire and corrosion Practical question. If pickup truck has bolted-on toolbox made from aluminum alloy, will it protect steel of the car and act as sacrificial anode? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28224|28224|2012-05-27 19:50:37|Doug Jackson|We appreciate our Freedom. Thank you to those have serve.|...and two shall become one. :) Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28225|28203|2012-05-28 10:12:22|David Jones|Re: Zincs...|IIRC the problem arises from the disparte coefficients of expansion between the Al wire and the connectors. Over time, this causes the connection to break down, oxide to form, causing an increased resistance leading to overheating and house fires... dj On Sat, 26 May 2012, wild_explorer wrote: > > > As I remember, Aluminum Oxide (even thin layer) on aluminum wires is a good dielectric. That > why Alum wires need special electricity conductive grease to mount it to a circuit breaker, > connectors, etc. > > I think, that why Alum wires were banned from using inside residential buildings (caused > fires)??? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > Under water the electrolsis will still take place > > > > > > Aaron > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: wild_explorer > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 8:39 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zincs... > > > > > > > >  > > > > I am not sure if aluminum is a good choice as anode. Does not it suppose to form protective > layer on aluminum's surface when it exposed to oxygen? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28226|28214|2012-05-28 12:02:58|David Jones|Re: Aluminium, electrical connections, fire and corrosion|not unless your truck is under water... On Sun, 27 May 2012, wild_explorer wrote: > > > Practical question. If pickup truck has bolted-on toolbox made from aluminum alloy, will it > protect steel of the car and act as sacrificial anode? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > When used as a sacrificial anode the oxide layer is removed by the the flow of current, > which continuously eats away the aluminum. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28227|28175|2012-05-28 15:20:48|brentswain38|Re: Steel Boat Inspection|I think a surveyor who regularly does commercial boats is a better surveyor for ANY boat you plan to go offshore in. They are far less likely to do a "Style over substance" survey, as Degroote does. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Stannard wrote: > > Chris > > Surveyors whose main clientele are yacht owners don't survey steel very > often - I would guess a surveyor who regularly surveys commercial vessels > might be a better choice for steel. > > Do you have any pictures? > > On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 6:46 AM, Giuseppe Bergman > wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Well, as far as the thing is complete and in (even "needs TLC" ... ) > > working condition now, this might be the way to go some years in future, > > just in case there popped up an inacceptably serious structural problem > > then. > > > > This way You could start now and You won't have redone Your equipment at > > all events. > > > > Asking the one real assessor might be a nice kick, while experiences like > > Brent's with this special surveyor of shiny chandlers delights are majority > > I'm afraid. > > > > Am 23.05.2012 um 17:10 schrieb Aaron: > > > > > > > Worst thing is you could salvage what you can use to build a Brent boat > > and sell the rest as scrap. > > > > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > -- > Cheers > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28228|28203|2012-05-28 15:35:38|David Jones|Re: Zincs...|Actually, the first successful Al sacrificial commercial anode was the Al3Zn (3% zinc) alloy. Later developments showed that tertiary alloys of AlZnSn and AlZnHg were more effective. The magnesium sacrificial alloy is the Mg-6Al-3Zn alloy. So the original question, what would you do if you couldn't get zinc? well you'd have a real problem... In all the above cases, the metallurgy is highly controlled and impurities are very carefully kept out. I'm a bit dated in my anode materials, so there may be some new alloys being used also I'm not aware of... Pure Al as a sacrifical anode does not work well. dj On Fri, 25 May 2012, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > Alu as sacrificial should be pure alu. the palte is alloy, more resistent and less effective. > (I believe) > Mauro > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Wilson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 6:44 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Zincs... > > > > I think the reason they say 50% is so that it will last until the next > haulout, assuming it used 50% since the last one. I can't see any other > reason. I give them a good cleaning and check to see they are sound. > If they look OK and if there is enough zinc left, I don't bother > changing them. > > If I couldn't get a zinc, an aluminum plate would probably do..... > > Cheers, Paul > > On 25/05/2012 2:22 p.m., David Jones wrote: > > > > > > I haven't seen anyone answer your last question. That's a difficult one. > > Cadmium, lead and aluminum have been used historically for the cathodic > > protection of steel in a similar manner as zinc. On some pipelines use of > > a graphite based sacrificial anode I believe has been used. You can > > use an > > impressed voltage/current using a power source. > > > > Theoretically any material more active on the EMf scale will corrode > > preferrentially to the more passive member but there are a lot of > > difficulties in practicle application. > > > > The short answer: there isn't a good, practicle alternative. > > > > dj > > > > On Thu, 24 May 2012, GP wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I have heard that zincs should be replaced when 50% depleted. Others > > say right down to 90%. > > > Any opinions? > > > > > > Also... if suddenly zincs were not available what would be the > > alternatives for steel boat > > > owners ? > > > > > > thanks... > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28229|21163|2012-05-29 15:15:15|brentswain38|Mooring bits|I have been sailing thru the Gulf Islands ( too yuppie for me) and seeing some very large ( 50 ft) very expensive steel boats, built by Kristen Yachts, which have next to nothing for bow mooring bits. One had no bow cleat of any kind, the nearest cleats being many feet back from the bow on either rail. Another had good looking cleats ,far from the bow, welded with tiny, jewelery sized tig welds. While the boats were beautifully finished, this would become a major problem if they ever left the land of marinas. I even saw one of mine, on which the owner had cut off the mooring bit ,and bolted a couple of dainty little cleats on. One night in Raro , or Marsden wharf in Auckland, etc, in a good northerly would show the foolishness of assuming that what works in a sheltered marina is all you need. I once sheered off 8 half inch bolts on 12 inch cleats in Noumea, in a good westerly. Friends broke two new one inch nylon springs in Raro, in a surge, breaking strength 25,000 lbs. A good solid mooring bit is one of the most common "wish I had one " item most offshore cruisers wish they had. If you go aground, and a tug is available to pull you off, a couple of stainless 12 inch cleats just wont do, no matter how shiny and trendy they look. He is not going to hand you the end of a half inch Yacht braid for a tow line. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good reason. .| 28230|28203|2012-05-29 15:20:10|brentswain38|Re: Zincs...|One could weld some marine aluminium, sandwiched both sides of a steel strap, hang it on a wire overboard, and see what happens. I suspect any aluminiumn, electrically connected to a big hunk of steel will corrode , and thus protect the steel, period regardless of what kind of alloy it is. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > Actually, the first successful Al sacrificial commercial anode was the > Al3Zn (3% zinc) alloy. Later developments showed that tertiary alloys of > AlZnSn and AlZnHg were more effective. > > The magnesium sacrificial alloy is the Mg-6Al-3Zn alloy. So the original > question, what would you do if you couldn't get zinc? well you'd have a > real problem... > > In all the above cases, the metallurgy is highly controlled and impurities > are very carefully kept out. > > I'm a bit dated in my anode materials, so there may be some new alloys > being used also I'm not aware of... > > Pure Al as a sacrifical anode does not work well. > > dj > > > On Fri, 25 May 2012, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > > Alu as sacrificial should be pure alu. the palte is alloy, more resistent and less effective. > > (I believe) > > Mauro > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Paul Wilson > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 6:44 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Zincs... > > > > > > > > I think the reason they say 50% is so that it will last until the next > > haulout, assuming it used 50% since the last one. I can't see any other > > reason. I give them a good cleaning and check to see they are sound. > > If they look OK and if there is enough zinc left, I don't bother > > changing them. > > > > If I couldn't get a zinc, an aluminum plate would probably do..... > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > On 25/05/2012 2:22 p.m., David Jones wrote: > > > > > > > > > I haven't seen anyone answer your last question. That's a difficult one. > > > Cadmium, lead and aluminum have been used historically for the cathodic > > > protection of steel in a similar manner as zinc. On some pipelines use of > > > a graphite based sacrificial anode I believe has been used. You can > > > use an > > > impressed voltage/current using a power source. > > > > > > Theoretically any material more active on the EMf scale will corrode > > > preferrentially to the more passive member but there are a lot of > > > difficulties in practicle application. > > > > > > The short answer: there isn't a good, practicle alternative. > > > > > > dj > > > > > > On Thu, 24 May 2012, GP wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have heard that zincs should be replaced when 50% depleted. Others > > > say right down to 90%. > > > > Any opinions? > > > > > > > > Also... if suddenly zincs were not available what would be the > > > alternatives for steel boat > > > > owners ? > > > > > > > > thanks... > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28231|21163|2012-05-29 23:10:39|chris123|Re: Mooring bits|After reading your book and looking at a couple of builder sites, its interesting...the fist thing I notice on that BR Im toying with is that both are bent. While the look solid enough 3" pipe, the are simply welded to the deck. How you gonna hold a boat of that weight to anything? Silly indeed if not a tad funny. /ch On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 3:15 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > I. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good reason. . > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28232|21163|2012-05-31 14:55:16|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bits|People including designers , who's only boating experience is going from sheltered marina to sheltered marina, are often incredibly naive about the need for strong mooring bits. Out in the real world, its often the only thing between you and the surf. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > After reading your book and looking at a couple of builder sites, its > interesting...the fist thing I notice on that BR Im toying with is that > both are bent. While the look solid enough 3" pipe, the are simply welded > to the deck. How you gonna hold a boat of that weight to anything? Silly > indeed if not a tad funny. > > /ch > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 3:15 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good reason. . > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28233|21163|2012-05-31 15:21:04|Paul Wilson|Re: Mooring bits|And bow rollers, too.....I have seen a few of them folded over. I think a nice, big easy rolling bow roller goes a long way to stopping chafe in the surf and waves if you are using a nylon line on your anchor or mooring. Putting lines over chocks is quite often inadequate when it really gets nasty. I have seen lines burn through from friction inside a hose on a chock but when it goes over a free spinning roller the whole thing just rolls as it stretches. Paul On 1/06/2012 6:55 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > People including designers , who's only boating experience is going > from sheltered marina to sheltered marina, are often incredibly naive > about the need for strong mooring bits. Out in the real world, its > often the only thing between you and the surf. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , chris123 > wrote: > > > > After reading your book and looking at a couple of builder sites, its > > interesting...the fist thing I notice on that BR Im toying with is that > > both are bent. While the look solid enough 3" pipe, the are simply > welded > > to the deck. How you gonna hold a boat of that weight to anything? Silly > > indeed if not a tad funny. > > > > /ch > > > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 3:15 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > I. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good > reason. . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 28234|28234|2012-06-01 08:50:16|TDPOPP@aol.com|Mooring BIts And Winch Mounting|Winches can be used for more than just the sails so should be mounted very good. Even on Marina Boats. I was walking the docks one windy winter day and a boat had broken its stern lines and the wind had pivoted the bow around and was gouging the boat next to it. And no one around. I tied line to the dock and using the winch to pull the stern back to the dock against the wind. It didn't work, as the winch was mounted on a small board on the cockpit coaming. Great for Fore and aft force, but pulling it to the side tore the winch right off its mounts. Some time you might need that winch to pull yourself off a grounding or other use and if it isn't mounted sturdy, you will be out of luck. Better to build it right and save the boat, than to spend on insurance and have to rebuild the boat. Tom Popp - KA0TP Gladstone, Oregon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28235|21163|2012-06-01 20:46:36|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bits|Walking down Pier 39 in Frisco, I didnt see a single bow roller which was not bent. Most are only 1/4 inch or 3/8th inch thick, on forty footers. Most have rounded front ends, which cause the rode to jump out at the first side load put on them. I use half inch plate for good reason. I used half inch on the first 36 I built . The owner mangeled it in the surf on Baja. Now I connect the centre plate to one side plate with a piece of 3/4 inch rod, to prevent that from happenning. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > And bow rollers, too.....I have seen a few of them folded over. I think > a nice, big easy rolling bow roller goes a long way to stopping chafe in > the surf and waves if you are using a nylon line on your anchor or > mooring. Putting lines over chocks is quite often inadequate when it > really gets nasty. I have seen lines burn through from friction inside a > hose on a chock but when it goes over a free spinning roller the whole > thing just rolls as it stretches. > > Paul > > On 1/06/2012 6:55 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > People including designers , who's only boating experience is going > > from sheltered marina to sheltered marina, are often incredibly naive > > about the need for strong mooring bits. Out in the real world, its > > often the only thing between you and the surf. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , chris123 > > wrote: > > > > > > After reading your book and looking at a couple of builder sites, its > > > interesting...the fist thing I notice on that BR Im toying with is that > > > both are bent. While the look solid enough 3" pipe, the are simply > > welded > > > to the deck. How you gonna hold a boat of that weight to anything? Silly > > > indeed if not a tad funny. > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 3:15 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > I. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good > > reason. . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > | 28236|21163|2012-06-02 09:49:54|chris123|Re: Mooring bits|Which leads to the next question. Anchor inventory for a 36 footer. Is there any real world justification to adding a Rocna clone? /ch On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 8:44 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > Walking down Pier 39 in Frisco, I didnt see a single bow roller which was > not bent. Most are only 1/4 inch or 3/8th inch thick, on forty footers. > Most have rounded front ends, which cause the rode to jump out at the first > side load put on them. I use half inch plate for good reason. I used half > inch on the first 36 I built . The owner mangeled it in the surf on Baja. > Now I connect the centre plate to one side plate with a piece of 3/4 inch > rod, to prevent that from happenning. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > And bow rollers, too.....I have seen a few of them folded over. I think > > a nice, big easy rolling bow roller goes a long way to stopping chafe in > > the surf and waves if you are using a nylon line on your anchor or > > mooring. Putting lines over chocks is quite often inadequate when it > > really gets nasty. I have seen lines burn through from friction inside a > > hose on a chock but when it goes over a free spinning roller the whole > > thing just rolls as it stretches. > > > > Paul > > > > On 1/06/2012 6:55 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > People including designers , who's only boating experience is going > > > from sheltered marina to sheltered marina, are often incredibly naive > > > about the need for strong mooring bits. Out in the real world, its > > > often the only thing between you and the surf. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , chris123 > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > After reading your book and looking at a couple of builder sites, its > > > > interesting...the fist thing I notice on that BR Im toying with is > that > > > > both are bent. While the look solid enough 3" pipe, the are simply > > > welded > > > > to the deck. How you gonna hold a boat of that weight to anything? > Silly > > > > indeed if not a tad funny. > > > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 3:15 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good > > > reason. . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28237|21163|2012-06-02 11:41:35|Tom Pee|Re: Mooring bits|Saw a picture of a tug pulling an old triplemasted freighter.  The line went through a tube at the bow maybe 20% down from the deck  ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 1, 2012 8:44 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mooring bits   Walking down Pier 39 in Frisco, I didnt see a single bow roller which was not bent. Most are only 1/4 inch or 3/8th inch thick, on forty footers. Most have rounded front ends, which cause the rode to jump out at the first side load put on them. I use half inch plate for good reason. I used half inch on the first 36 I built . The owner mangeled it in the surf on Baja. Now I connect the centre plate to one side plate with a piece of 3/4 inch rod, to prevent that from happenning. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > And bow rollers, too.....I have seen a few of them folded over. I think > a nice, big easy rolling bow roller goes a long way to stopping chafe in > the surf and waves if you are using a nylon line on your anchor or > mooring. Putting lines over chocks is quite often inadequate when it > really gets nasty. I have seen lines burn through from friction inside a > hose on a chock but when it goes over a free spinning roller the whole > thing just rolls as it stretches. > > Paul > > On 1/06/2012 6:55 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > People including designers , who's only boating experience is going > > from sheltered marina to sheltered marina, are often incredibly naive > > about the need for strong mooring bits. Out in the real world, its > > often the only thing between you and the surf. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , chris123 > > wrote: > > > > > > After reading your book and looking at a couple of builder sites, its > > > interesting...the fist thing I notice on that BR Im toying with is that > > > both are bent. While the look solid enough 3" pipe, the are simply > > welded > > > to the deck. How you gonna hold a boat of that weight to anything? Silly > > > indeed if not a tad funny. > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 3:15 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > I. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good > > reason. . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28238|21163|2012-06-02 11:44:45|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bits|Friends who use Rocnas swear by them . Havent heard anyone swear at them, yet. Loks like they couod catch a rock and not let it out, but less likely than with a Bruce. Good to have lots of anchors, at least 4 or 5. 55 lb deltas are good, and easy to build. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Which leads to the next question. Anchor inventory for a 36 footer. Is > there any real world justification to adding a Rocna clone? > > /ch > > On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 8:44 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Walking down Pier 39 in Frisco, I didnt see a single bow roller which was > > not bent. Most are only 1/4 inch or 3/8th inch thick, on forty footers. > > Most have rounded front ends, which cause the rode to jump out at the first > > side load put on them. I use half inch plate for good reason. I used half > > inch on the first 36 I built . The owner mangeled it in the surf on Baja. > > Now I connect the centre plate to one side plate with a piece of 3/4 inch > > rod, to prevent that from happenning. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > And bow rollers, too.....I have seen a few of them folded over. I think > > > a nice, big easy rolling bow roller goes a long way to stopping chafe in > > > the surf and waves if you are using a nylon line on your anchor or > > > mooring. Putting lines over chocks is quite often inadequate when it > > > really gets nasty. I have seen lines burn through from friction inside a > > > hose on a chock but when it goes over a free spinning roller the whole > > > thing just rolls as it stretches. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 1/06/2012 6:55 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > People including designers , who's only boating experience is going > > > > from sheltered marina to sheltered marina, are often incredibly naive > > > > about the need for strong mooring bits. Out in the real world, its > > > > often the only thing between you and the surf. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , chris123 > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > After reading your book and looking at a couple of builder sites, its > > > > > interesting...the fist thing I notice on that BR Im toying with is > > that > > > > > both are bent. While the look solid enough 3" pipe, the are simply > > > > welded > > > > > to the deck. How you gonna hold a boat of that weight to anything? > > Silly > > > > > indeed if not a tad funny. > > > > > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 3:15 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good > > > > reason. . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28239|21163|2012-06-02 11:47:19|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bits|They run only chain thru those tubes,so chafe is not a problem. Running a short length of chain thru a chock ,before shackling on rope, eliminates chafe. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > Saw a picture of a tug pulling an old triplemasted freighter.  The line went through a tube at the bow maybe 20% down from the deck  > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, June 1, 2012 8:44 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mooring bits > > > >   > > Walking down Pier 39 in Frisco, I didnt see a single bow roller which was not bent. Most are only 1/4 inch or 3/8th inch thick, on forty footers. Most have rounded front ends, which cause the rode to jump out at the first side load put on them. I use half inch plate for good reason. I used half inch on the first 36 I built . The owner mangeled it in the surf on Baja. Now I connect the centre plate to one side plate with a piece of 3/4 inch rod, to prevent that from happenning. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > And bow rollers, too.....I have seen a few of them folded over. I think > > a nice, big easy rolling bow roller goes a long way to stopping chafe in > > the surf and waves if you are using a nylon line on your anchor or > > mooring. Putting lines over chocks is quite often inadequate when it > > really gets nasty. I have seen lines burn through from friction inside a > > hose on a chock but when it goes over a free spinning roller the whole > > thing just rolls as it stretches. > > > > Paul > > > > On 1/06/2012 6:55 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > People including designers , who's only boating experience is going > > > from sheltered marina to sheltered marina, are often incredibly naive > > > about the need for strong mooring bits. Out in the real world, its > > > often the only thing between you and the surf. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , chris123 > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > After reading your book and looking at a couple of builder sites, its > > > > interesting...the fist thing I notice on that BR Im toying with is that > > > > both are bent. While the look solid enough 3" pipe, the are simply > > > welded > > > > to the deck. How you gonna hold a boat of that weight to anything? Silly > > > > indeed if not a tad funny. > > > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 3:15 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good > > > reason. . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28240|21163|2012-06-02 12:55:45|Brian Stannard|Re: Mooring bits|Depends what you are starting with. Rocna or Manson Supreme are both good choices if you need more than you have. Of course anchor discussions are as varied as those on religion. On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 6:49 AM, chris123 wrote: > Which leads to the next question. Anchor inventory for a 36 footer. Is > there any real world justification to adding a Rocna clone? > > /ch > > On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 8:44 PM, brentswain38 >wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Walking down Pier 39 in Frisco, I didnt see a single bow roller which was > > not bent. Most are only 1/4 inch or 3/8th inch thick, on forty footers. > > Most have rounded front ends, which cause the rode to jump out at the > first > > side load put on them. I use half inch plate for good reason. I used half > > inch on the first 36 I built . The owner mangeled it in the surf on Baja. > > Now I connect the centre plate to one side plate with a piece of 3/4 inch > > rod, to prevent that from happenning. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > And bow rollers, too.....I have seen a few of them folded over. I think > > > a nice, big easy rolling bow roller goes a long way to stopping chafe > in > > > the surf and waves if you are using a nylon line on your anchor or > > > mooring. Putting lines over chocks is quite often inadequate when it > > > really gets nasty. I have seen lines burn through from friction inside > a > > > hose on a chock but when it goes over a free spinning roller the whole > > > thing just rolls as it stretches. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 1/06/2012 6:55 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > People including designers , who's only boating experience is going > > > > from sheltered marina to sheltered marina, are often incredibly naive > > > > about the need for strong mooring bits. Out in the real world, its > > > > often the only thing between you and the surf. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , chris123 > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > After reading your book and looking at a couple of builder sites, > its > > > > > interesting...the fist thing I notice on that BR Im toying with is > > that > > > > > both are bent. While the look solid enough 3" pipe, the are simply > > > > welded > > > > > to the deck. How you gonna hold a boat of that weight to anything? > > Silly > > > > > indeed if not a tad funny. > > > > > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 3:15 PM, brentswain38 >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good > > > > reason. . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28241|28241|2012-06-02 13:18:39|Mark Hamill|Mooring bits--Religious anchors|I have a plan for a "Spade Anchor" I can send out or maybe put in files if anyone would like to look at it. Can't remember where it came from and was surprised to find the other day. This one supposedly weighs 180 pounds but could be scaled down easily just by reducing size of plans. Blade seperates from the stock for easier storage as a storm anchor I'm guessing. Ask and ye shall receive. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28242|28241|2012-06-02 14:17:42|Darren Bos|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|I'm interested in the plans for the spade. But what are folks using for steel? Some of the Rocna anchors have been recalled due to "inferior" grades of steel being used. Yachting Monthly April 2012 had a nice article: "Records show that most anchors made in China from the end of 2008 until mid 2010 are made from a grade known as Q240 which has only 60% of the strength of the original spec, Bisplate 80". "Under normal usage the a Q240 shank has such a high margin of safety that the deck gear of the yacht would fail long before the shank.... The problem arises when the shank is stressed at 90 degrees-when the boat swings, due to a change of tide or wind. The flukes have such a high holding capacity that under a shock load the shank will be stressed." See example photo here http://it.zinio.com/sitemap/Sports-magazines/Yachting-Monthly/October-2011/cat1960028/is-416189666/pg-12 The Yachting Monthly article suggested a DIY Brinnel test using a ball bearing and a test material of known hardness (8.8 metric bolt UTS of 800 MPA), perhaps that could also be used to test scrap steel, or do you just build the anchor shank oversize (thicker steel), or order steel of known spec? Gotta love the Brit sailing mags, they cut anchors apart, test steel chemistry, suggest a DIY test, and offer bottles of rum as reader prizes. Darren At 10:18 AM 02/06/2012, you wrote: > > >I have a plan for a "Spade Anchor" I can send >out or maybe put in files if anyone would like >to look at it. Can't remember where it came from >and was surprised to find the other day. This >one supposedly weighs 180 pounds but could be >scaled down easily just by reducing size of >plans. Blade seperates from the stock for easier >storage as a storm anchor I'm guessing. Ask and ye shall receive. MarkH > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28243|28241|2012-06-02 15:45:29|chris123|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|A contribution to the files section would benefit everyone. Much appreciated. /ch On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 1:18 PM, Mark Hamill wrote: > ** > > > I have a plan for a "Spade Anchor" I can send out or maybe put in files if > anyone would like to look at it. Can't remember where it came from and was > surprised to find the other day. This one supposedly weighs 180 pounds but > could be scaled down easily just by reducing size of plans. Blade seperates > from the stock for easier storage as a storm anchor I'm guessing. Ask and > ye shall receive. MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28244|28244|2012-06-02 15:59:52|chris123|Painting Systems|Greets: Total nubie so pardon the question if its old. Paint 1. What is the recommended painting system below the water line. 2. What is the recommended painting system for top sides and decks The interior Ive come to understand is best treated with an epoxy tar based product then insulated. Best and kind regards -- /ch| 28245|28241|2012-06-02 16:30:58|Mark Hamill|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|Downloaded the pattern to files as "Spade anchor pattern.jpg ". I notice that there a couple of other files dealing with a "Spade Anchor" MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28246|28241|2012-06-02 16:34:08|Mark Hamill|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|HI: See attached. I also downloaded to files section and there are a couple of other files under "Spade Anchor" from somebody else. MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: Darren Bos To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors I'm interested in the plans for the spade. But what are folks using for steel? Some of the Rocna anchors have been recalled due to "inferior" grades of steel being used. Yachting Monthly April 2012 had a nice article: "Records show that most anchors made in China from the end of 2008 until mid 2010 are made from a grade known as Q240 which has only 60% of the strength of the original spec, Bisplate 80". "Under normal usage the a Q240 shank has such a high margin of safety that the deck gear of the yacht would fail long before the shank.... The problem arises when the shank is stressed at 90 degrees-when the boat swings, due to a change of tide or wind. The flukes have such a high holding capacity that under a shock load the shank will be stressed." See example photo here http://it.zinio.com/sitemap/Sports-magazines/Yachting-Monthly/October-2011/cat1960028/is-416189666/pg-12 The Yachting Monthly article suggested a DIY Brinnel test using a ball bearing and a test material of known hardness (8.8 metric bolt UTS of 800 MPA), perhaps that could also be used to test scrap steel, or do you just build the anchor shank oversize (thicker steel), or order steel of known spec? Gotta love the Brit sailing mags, they cut anchors apart, test steel chemistry, suggest a DIY test, and offer bottles of rum as reader prizes. Darren At 10:18 AM 02/06/2012, you wrote: > > >I have a plan for a "Spade Anchor" I can send >out or maybe put in files if anyone would like >to look at it. Can't remember where it came from >and was surprised to find the other day. This >one supposedly weighs 180 pounds but could be >scaled down easily just by reducing size of >plans. Blade seperates from the stock for easier >storage as a storm anchor I'm guessing. Ask and ye shall receive. MarkH > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28247|28241|2012-06-02 16:35:26|Mark Hamill|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|Chris: See attached if interested in the anchor and I also downloaded to files section and there are a couple of other files under "Spade Anchor" from somebody else. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28248|28241|2012-06-02 16:52:13|Doug Jackson|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|I drew that one.  It's not a tested design but it is close to other spade anchors I saw online. We've build one because we needed a dead-man and have a video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djMY12jXTNU%c2%a0%c2%a0 Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors   Downloaded the pattern to files as "Spade anchor pattern.jpg ". I notice that there a couple of other files dealing with a "Spade Anchor" MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28249|28241|2012-06-02 18:27:57|Mark Hamill|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|Doug: I changed file to note you designed it and a reference to the YouTube page.Thanks, MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28250|28241|2012-06-02 18:45:29|Doug Jackson|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|LOL  Thanks, but you didn't need to do that.  I didn't design it, I drew it.  Which is a polite way of saying, I stole it.  :)   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors   Doug: I changed file to note you designed it and a reference to the YouTube page.Thanks, MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28251|28241|2012-06-02 19:22:00|martin demers|Re: Mooring bits--Welding|Being in the mooring bits subject I take the opportunity to ask if the mooring bits can be welded to the deck using regular welding rods, I find stainless rods on the expensive side...! Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:45:27 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors LOL Thanks, but you didn't need to do that. I didn't design it, I drew it. Which is a polite way of saying, I stole it. :) Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors Doug: I changed file to note you designed it and a reference to the YouTube page.Thanks, MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28252|28241|2012-06-02 20:00:42|Robert Jones|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false  :   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28253|28241|2012-06-02 20:24:24|martin demers|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|Robert, I understand your point but like Brent said before paint will come off from mooring bits and they will rust... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 17:00:40 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false : [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28254|28241|2012-06-02 21:09:51|James Pronk|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|Dis-similar metals are welded together all the time. If the right welding procedures are followed it should not be a problem James --- On Sat, 6/2/12, Robert Jones wrote: From: Robert Jones Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 8:00 PM   Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false  :   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28255|28241|2012-06-02 21:12:56|James Pronk|Re: Mooring bits--Welding|Use 309L to weld the stainless to mild steel. Look for some on line. I am picking up 20lb for $100 How much will you need? James --- On Sat, 6/2/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Welding To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 7:21 PM Being in the mooring bits subject I take the opportunity to ask if the mooring bits can be welded to the deck using regular welding rods, I find stainless rods on the expensive side...! Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:45:27 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors                         LOL  Thanks, but you didn't need to do that.  I didn't design it, I drew it.  Which is a polite way of saying, I stole it.  :) Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors   Doug: I changed file to note you designed it and a reference to the YouTube page.Thanks, MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28256|28241|2012-06-02 21:49:14|Robert Jones|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|Wonder how long it would take for rust to damage a heavy piece like that, assuming it was never used or maintained?  Just wanted you to be aware of the welding issues. robert --- On Sat, 6/2/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 6:24 PM Robert, I understand your point but like Brent said before paint will come off from mooring bits and they will rust... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 17:00:40 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats]  Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)                         Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false : [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28257|28241|2012-06-02 22:25:50|Aaron|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|The idea is to prevent the rust in the first place. Aaron       ________________________________ From: Robert Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:49 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)   Wonder how long it would take for rust to damage a heavy piece like that, assuming it was never used or maintained?  Just wanted you to be aware of the welding issues. robert --- On Sat, 6/2/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 6:24 PM Robert, I understand your point but like Brent said before paint will come off from mooring bits and they will rust... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 17:00:40 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats]  Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)                         Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false : [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28258|28241|2012-06-02 22:47:36|James Pronk|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|Robert 309 L electrodes are designed to weld stainless to mild steel, no issues. The article you attached was about welding different alloys together, not just stainless to mild steel. They did speak of following welding procedures. So if you use the right electrode with the right polarity and amps for the thickness and type of material you are welding you should have no issues. James --- On Sat, 6/2/12, Robert Jones wrote: From: Robert Jones Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 9:49 PM   Wonder how long it would take for rust to damage a heavy piece like that, assuming it was never used or maintained?  Just wanted you to be aware of the welding issues. robert --- On Sat, 6/2/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 6:24 PM Robert, I understand your point but like Brent said before paint will come off from mooring bits and they will rust... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 17:00:40 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats]  Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)                         Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false : [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28259|28241|2012-06-02 22:49:23|Robert Jones|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|James, i realize that they are, and have done it many times. Just not a fan. Unless extreme heat is involved,(boilers, engine exhausts, ect.),  or a system that is under constant abrasive action (like mixers, ect). Otherwise, me, not so much. As i get older, i have more time to study the metallurgical side of what i've been, just doing, all these years. The information that i attached in my prior post comes from one of the top rated books in the field, and not my personal opinion. My suggestion was also based on similar appurtenances on fishing vessels, tugs and ships. Some are still cast, but most are iron. Painted when painting is done. And allowed to wear where wear occurs. And lastly, and importantly, where wear occurs there will usually be very little rust. robert From: James Pronk Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 7:09 PM   Dis-similar metals are welded together all the time. If the right welding procedures are followed it should not be a problem James --- On Sat, 6/2/12, Robert Jones wrote: From: Robert Jones Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 8:00 PM   Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false  :   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28260|28241|2012-06-02 22:58:57|Robert Jones|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|Aaron, to me, the idea is to provide the strongest, longest lasting appendage whereby to attach mooring and anchor lines. One where Corrosion (dangerous) is limited or eliminated, and rust (not so dangerous) is minimal with use and occasional maintenance. --- On Sat, 6/2/12, Aaron wrote: From: Aaron Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 8:25 PM   The idea is to prevent the rust in the first place. Aaron       ________________________________ From: Robert Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:49 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)   Wonder how long it would take for rust to damage a heavy piece like that, assuming it was never used or maintained?  Just wanted you to be aware of the welding issues. robert --- On Sat, 6/2/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 6:24 PM Robert, I understand your point but like Brent said before paint will come off from mooring bits and they will rust... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 17:00:40 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats]  Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)                         Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false : [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28261|28241|2012-06-02 22:59:21|James Pronk|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|The information that you attached is about dissimilar metals. Which dissimilar metals, there are hundreds. It is far to vague to be sighted as a reason not to weld stainless steel to mild steel. James --- On Sat, 6/2/12, Robert Jones wrote: From: Robert Jones Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 10:49 PM   James, i realize that they are, and have done it many times. Just not a fan. Unless extreme heat is involved,(boilers, engine exhausts, ect.),  or a system that is under constant abrasive action (like mixers, ect). Otherwise, me, not so much. As i get older, i have more time to study the metallurgical side of what i've been, just doing, all these years. The information that i attached in my prior post comes from one of the top rated books in the field, and not my personal opinion. My suggestion was also based on similar appurtenances on fishing vessels, tugs and ships. Some are still cast, but most are iron. Painted when painting is done. And allowed to wear where wear occurs. And lastly, and importantly, where wear occurs there will usually be very little rust. robert From: James Pronk Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 7:09 PM   Dis-similar metals are welded together all the time. If the right welding procedures are followed it should not be a problem James --- On Sat, 6/2/12, Robert Jones wrote: From: Robert Jones Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 8:00 PM   Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false  :   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28262|28241|2012-06-02 23:02:34|Robert Jones|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|I love the "No issues"! There are always "issues" and tradeoffs. If you want as close to "no issues" as possible, try some Magna 303 (Gold) rods next time. --- On Sat, 6/2/12, James Pronk wrote: From: James Pronk Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 8:47 PM   Robert 309 L electrodes are designed to weld stainless to mild steel, no issues. The article you attached was about welding different alloys together, not just stainless to mild steel. They did speak of following welding procedures. So if you use the right electrode with the right polarity and amps for the thickness and type of material you are welding you should have no issues. James --- On Sat, 6/2/12, Robert Jones wrote: From: Robert Jones Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 9:49 PM   Wonder how long it would take for rust to damage a heavy piece like that, assuming it was never used or maintained?  Just wanted you to be aware of the welding issues. robert --- On Sat, 6/2/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 6:24 PM Robert, I understand your point but like Brent said before paint will come off from mooring bits and they will rust... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 17:00:40 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats]  Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)                         Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false : [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28263|28241|2012-06-02 23:12:07|Aaron|Re: Mooring bits--Welding|Martin The correct answer here is to use 309 if you are going to use SS for your bits. If you were to use regular rod E6010/11 or E7018 you would end up with a weak weld where it joins the SS, That is one place you want the strength. There several others in the group the like to go into technical details. I don't think it is necessary unless you want to know, The book for $159 should have some good info. Brent's method is time tested and is about as simple as it gets. Aaron ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:21 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Welding Being in the mooring bits subject I take the opportunity to ask if the mooring bits can be welded to the deck using regular welding rods, I find stainless rods on the expensive side...! Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:45:27 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors                         LOL  Thanks, but you didn't need to do that.  I didn't design it, I drew it.  Which is a polite way of saying, I stole it.  :) Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors   Doug: I changed file to note you designed it and a reference to the YouTube page.Thanks, MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28264|28241|2012-06-02 23:12:49|Robert Jones|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|James, It is my bedtime and we are not getting anywhere. I did not start this string to argue the cans and cant's of welding, only to raise a question on the long term viability of meshing two dissimilar metals(stainless and mild steel)  when, in my opinion, strength and corrosion(not rust) prevention would be my main concerns. Respectfully, and tired of witty banter, I am, and will remain, robert jones --- On Sat, 6/2/12, James Pronk wrote: From: James Pronk Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 8:59 PM   The information that you attached is about dissimilar metals. Which dissimilar metals, there are hundreds. It is far to vague to be sighted as a reason not to weld stainless steel to mild steel. James --- On Sat, 6/2/12, Robert Jones wrote: From: Robert Jones Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 10:49 PM   James, i realize that they are, and have done it many times. Just not a fan. Unless extreme heat is involved,(boilers, engine exhausts, ect.),  or a system that is under constant abrasive action (like mixers, ect). Otherwise, me, not so much. As i get older, i have more time to study the metallurgical side of what i've been, just doing, all these years. The information that i attached in my prior post comes from one of the top rated books in the field, and not my personal opinion. My suggestion was also based on similar appurtenances on fishing vessels, tugs and ships. Some are still cast, but most are iron. Painted when painting is done. And allowed to wear where wear occurs. And lastly, and importantly, where wear occurs there will usually be very little rust. robert From: James Pronk Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 7:09 PM   Dis-similar metals are welded together all the time. If the right welding procedures are followed it should not be a problem James --- On Sat, 6/2/12, Robert Jones wrote: From: Robert Jones Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 8:00 PM   Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false  :   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28265|28241|2012-06-02 23:44:38|Aaron|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|Rust is Corrosion  and the longer it goes unchecked, more moisture can collect and increase the speed of the corrosion process. The hotter and wetter the worse it gets  Aaron ________________________________ From: Robert Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)   Aaron, to me, the idea is to provide the strongest, longest lasting appendage whereby to attach mooring and anchor lines. One where Corrosion (dangerous) is limited or eliminated, and rust (not so dangerous) is minimal with use and occasional maintenance. --- On Sat, 6/2/12, Aaron wrote: From: Aaron Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 8:25 PM   The idea is to prevent the rust in the first place. Aaron       ________________________________ From: Robert Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:49 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)   Wonder how long it would take for rust to damage a heavy piece like that, assuming it was never used or maintained?  Just wanted you to be aware of the welding issues. robert --- On Sat, 6/2/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 6:24 PM Robert, I understand your point but like Brent said before paint will come off from mooring bits and they will rust... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 17:00:40 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats]  Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)                         Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false : [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28266|28241|2012-06-03 02:01:49|wild_explorer|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|May be this information will help somehow. Looks like very practical book (did not have a time to read it all yet). http://www.wilhelmsen.com/services/maritime/companies/buss/DocLit/ProductLiterature/Documents/Welding_Handbook.pdf| 28267|28241|2012-06-03 02:44:48|mauro gonzaga|Re: Mooring bits--Welding|Ho boys, I see so many messages on the same argument. Let me give my 5 cents of wisdom since I am a pressure vessel inspector, familiar with welding including dissimilar metals. I understand the concern is in having on deck, parts subject to wear in carbon steel. The paint will not protect because it will be removed by chafing of ropes, chain..or human feet. These parts are recommended to be made out of stainless steel otherwise the carbon steel unpainted will rust and stint the deck which makes a very unpleasant view. I would not be concerned about the reduction of thickness because of corrosion, which would not be greater than the reduction in thickness due to the wear. Stainless steel (austenitic) has a typical composition of 18% Cr-8% Ni. When welded on Carbon steel, the welding pool will have in the diluted area, in the carbon steel side, a Cr. content which may be 3 or 5% . We use in boiler construction low alloy steels having a 3 or 5% Cromium which gives to the steel a higher resistance to high temperature. The 3 or 5% Cr low alloy steel is prone to crack if not properly heat treated after welding. This process is called post weld heat treatment (PWHT). Using carbon steel electrodes or 304, 316 stainless steel electrode the danger in having cracks is very high. It could be lower but always present, if you use 304 or 316 small diameter rods, low amps to reduce the diluted area. The problem is solved using 309 stailess steel electrodes which have a typical Cr. 25% - Ni 20% composition. This very rich composition avoids the presence of a low Cr. dilution and avoids cracks. Fair wind everybody Mauro ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 3:12 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Welding   Use 309L to weld the stainless to mild steel. Look for some on line. I am picking up 20lb for $100 How much will you need? James --- On Sat, 6/2/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Welding To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 7:21 PM Being in the mooring bits subject I take the opportunity to ask if the mooring bits can be welded to the deck using regular welding rods, I find stainless rods on the expensive side...! Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:45:27 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors                         LOL  Thanks, but you didn't need to do that.  I didn't design it, I drew it.  Which is a polite way of saying, I stole it.  :) Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors   Doug: I changed file to note you designed it and a reference to the YouTube page.Thanks, MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28268|28241|2012-06-03 11:55:12|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|Yes, please put it in files. I read about a guy with a 35 footer who built a collapsible 130 pound anchor and stored it in his bilge. When a hurricane came thru ,he asembled it and put it out, watched lthe other boats drag past him, then went to bed. It only takes one such use to justify it. Makes more sense than a mooring block, and, unlike a moring block, you get to raise it and check it, or move it if you want. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > I have a plan for a "Spade Anchor" I can send out or maybe put in files if anyone would like to look at it. Can't remember where it came from and was surprised to find the other day. This one supposedly weighs 180 pounds but could be scaled down easily just by reducing size of plans. Blade seperates from the stock for easier storage as a storm anchor I'm guessing. Ask and ye shall receive. MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28269|28241|2012-06-03 12:00:47|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|Anytime the deck gear breaks before the shank bends, the deck gear is not strong enough. Deck gear, including chocks , should always be far stronger than the biggest rope that will ever be used on it. That is why my mooring bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength. Stock production boats have abysmally flimsey deck gear. We use t1 or AR plate for shanks on Deltas. I've heard qt100 is also good. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > > I'm interested in the plans for the spade. > > But what are folks using for steel? Some of the > Rocna anchors have been recalled due to > "inferior" grades of steel being used. Yachting > Monthly April 2012 had a nice article: "Records > show that most anchors made in China from the end > of 2008 until mid 2010 are made from a grade > known as Q240 which has only 60% of the strength > of the original spec, Bisplate 80". "Under > normal usage the a Q240 shank has such a high > margin of safety that the deck gear of the yacht > would fail long before the shank.... The problem > arises when the shank is stressed at 90 > degrees-when the boat swings, due to a change of > tide or wind. The flukes have such a high > holding capacity that under a shock load the > shank will be stressed." See example photo here > http://it.zinio.com/sitemap/Sports-magazines/Yachting-Monthly/October-2011/cat1960028/is-416189666/pg-12 > The Yachting Monthly article suggested a DIY > Brinnel test using a ball bearing and a test > material of known hardness (8.8 metric bolt UTS > of 800 MPA), perhaps that could also be used to > test scrap steel, or do you just build the anchor > shank oversize (thicker steel), or order steel of > known spec? Gotta love the Brit sailing mags, > they cut anchors apart, test steel chemistry, > suggest a DIY test, and offer bottles of rum as reader prizes. > > Darren > > At 10:18 AM 02/06/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >I have a plan for a "Spade Anchor" I can send > >out or maybe put in files if anyone would like > >to look at it. Can't remember where it came from > >and was surprised to find the other day. This > >one supposedly weighs 180 pounds but could be > >scaled down easily just by reducing size of > >plans. Blade seperates from the stock for easier > >storage as a storm anchor I'm guessing. Ask and ye shall receive. MarkH > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28270|28244|2012-06-03 12:09:59|chris123|Re: Painting Systems|Greets: Been doing a lot of reading on line with respect to painting steel vessels, from cleaners to primers to finish coat. Seems that there are a lot of products out there. Was wondering, to keep the budget reasonable what would be a good paint system that works for below the waterline, topsides and the decks. Ive even read that some folks use house paint on top sides and decks. As I am new to this and would like to save some money as this can be an expensive item, was wondering what others use and the type of performance they actually get. Best and kind regards /ch On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 3:49 PM, chris123 wrote: > Greets: > > Total nubie so pardon the question if its old. > > Paint > > 1. What is the recommended painting system below the water line. > > 2. What is the recommended painting system for top sides and decks > > The interior Ive come to understand is best treated with an epoxy tar > based product then insulated. > > Best and kind regards > > > -- > /ch -- /ch | 28271|28244|2012-06-03 12:15:17|brentswain38|Re: Painting Systems|As welded on zincs give you all the protection you need below the waterline, paint there doesn't have to be as thick as above. It just insulates the copper paint from the steel . Two coats of epoxy tar, or wasser tar is all you need. If you use epoxy, best put your antifouling on while the last coat is wet, for a good bond. I like epoxycop, an epoxy based antifouling. Ablative for offshore is too stiff to work for short coastal cruising, stuff desiged for weekenders washes off to quickly on long passages. With hard epoxy based antiofouling, you can scrub it without washing it off. I'm not impressed with ablatives. For topsides and decks, I used 5 coats of epoxy tar, 30 gallons on my 31 footer. The thicker the better. If you can still see the weld pattern , it's not thick enough. If you have rust problems in the middle of a flat surface, the paint is not thick enough. My paint job is 28 years old and the only corrosion I've seen is where it has been chipped . The rest is as good as the day I put it on. Over epoxy I put oil based enamel, while the epoxy was still wet. The epoxy tar bled thru the first couple of coats. Let that harden for a couple of weeks. Then you can put whatever colour you want over it, even white, and it won't bleed thru. Urethane over epoxy tar gives you a much harder surface, but is more difficult to paint over and touch up. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Greets: > > Total nubie so pardon the question if its old. > > Paint > > 1. What is the recommended painting system below the water line. > > 2. What is the recommended painting system for top sides and decks > > The interior Ive come to understand is best treated with an epoxy tar > based product then insulated. > > Best and kind regards > > > -- > /ch > | 28272|28241|2012-06-03 12:37:21|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|I checked out your building videos. The centreline of the plate should always be a smooth outside curve. If it curves the other way, it puckers inward. I found 1 1/2 inch angle a bit too stiff, which is what pulled your beam in too much. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > I drew that one.  It's not a tested design but it is close to other spade anchors I saw online. We've build one because we needed a dead-man and have a video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djMY12jXTNU%c3%82%c2%a0%c3%82%c2%a0 > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mark Hamill > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:31 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors > > >   > Downloaded the pattern to files as "Spade anchor pattern.jpg ". I notice that there a couple of other files dealing with a "Spade Anchor" MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28273|28241|2012-06-03 12:39:21|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bits--Welding|7018 works well for attaching stainless to mild steel, in areas where the paint wont chip and let it rust. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Being in the mooring bits subject I take the opportunity to ask if the mooring bits can be welded to the deck using regular welding rods, I find stainless rods on the expensive side...! > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: svseeker@... > Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:45:27 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL Thanks, but you didn't need to do that. I didn't design it, I drew it. Which is a polite way of saying, I stole it. :) > > > > > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Mark Hamill > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors > > > > > > > > Doug: I changed file to note you designed it and a reference to the YouTube page.Thanks, MarkH > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28274|28241|2012-06-03 12:43:23|brentswain38|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|It's impossible to keep paint on mooring bits and cleats. Stainless is the only thing which works there. Here , as in many other places on a boat, theory is abysmally naive when it comes to the reality of boats. Theorists are anything but wise. Using mild steel for everythign results in a maintenance night mare. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert > > http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false > >  : > >   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28275|28241|2012-06-03 12:45:10|brentswain38|Re: Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel)|It may take a lonmg time, but your boat will look like a rust bucket the whole time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Wonder how long it would take for rust to damage a heavy piece like that, assuming it was never used or maintained?  Just wanted you to be aware of the welding issues. robert > --- On Sat, 6/2/12, martin demers wrote: > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 6:24 PM > > Robert, > > I understand your point but like Brent said before paint will come off from mooring bits and they will rust... > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: pha7env@... > Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 17:00:40 -0700 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats]  Welding dissimilar metals (Stainless and mild steel) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > >     >       >       >       Here is a great article that, is much more complex than my simple answer, which is to use the same metal for mooring bits as the boat is made of. Mixing metals is awkward at best, catastrophic at worst(IMHO) robert > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=HRdH0Zrz4uoC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=welding+dissimilar+metals+corrosion&source=bl&ots=SqfDr5Mb3z&sig=KdjAa_xjnD40dXnXvNpUqosHHhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqbKT_qACOng2QWvudTZCw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=welding%20dissimilar%20metals%20corrosion&f=false > > > > : > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > >     >       > >     >     > > > > > > >   > > > > > > >                           > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28276|28241|2012-06-03 12:50:59|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bits--Welding|6011 on stainless cracks very easily. Welding stainless to mild steel with 7018 , you can beat the crap out of it, and bend it back and forth many times, and it wont break. It should only be used where corosion on the weld is not likely to be a problem ( Inside corners) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Martin > The correct answer here is to use 309 if you are going to use SS for your bits. If you were to use regular rod E6010/11 or E7018 you would end up with a weak weld where it joins the SS, That is one place you want the strength. > There several others in the group the like to go into technical details. I don't think it is necessary unless you want to know, The book for $159 should have some good info. Brent's method is time tested and is about as simple as it gets. > > Aaron > > ________________________________ > From: martin demers > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:21 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Welding > > Being in the mooring bits subject I take the opportunity to ask if the mooring bits can be welded to the deck using regular welding rods, I find stainless rods on the expensive side...! > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: svseeker@... > Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:45:27 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > >     >       >       >       LOL  Thanks, but you didn't need to do that.  I didn't design it, I drew it.  Which is a polite way of saying, I stole it.  :) > > > > > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Mark Hamill > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors > > > > > >   > > Doug: I changed file to note you designed it and a reference to the YouTube page.Thanks, MarkH > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > >     >     > >     >     > > > > > > >   > > > > > > >                         > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28277|28244|2012-06-03 12:59:13|brentswain38|Re: Painting Systems|Only epoxy or wasser tar will give you adequate protection. Oil based house paint over that works well. You can sometimes find it free in recycling depots. Military surplus places sometimes have epoxy cheap. Epoxy is epoxy, only the thickness counts. A few years ago I walked into Industrial Plastics and asked the price of epoxy tar. They said $44 a litre. I walked next door to Clovedale paints and they said $44 a gallon. Same stuff, different prices. Avoid the pretentious yuppie stores. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Greets: > > Been doing a lot of reading on line with respect to painting steel > vessels, from cleaners to primers to finish coat. Seems that there are > a lot of products out there. Was wondering, to keep the budget > reasonable what would be a good paint system that works for below the > waterline, topsides and the decks. Ive even read that some folks use > house paint on top sides and decks. As I am new to this and would like > to save some money as this can be an expensive item, was wondering > what others use and the type of performance they actually get. > > Best and kind regards > > /ch > > > On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 3:49 PM, chris123 wrote: > > Greets: > > > > Total nubie so pardon the question if its old. > > > > Paint > > > > 1. What is the recommended painting system below the water line. > > > > 2. What is the recommended painting system for top sides and decks > > > > The interior Ive come to understand is best treated with an epoxy tar > > based product then insulated. > > > > Best and kind regards > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > -- > /ch > | 28278|28224|2012-06-03 13:26:30|brentswain38|Re: We appreciate our Freedom. Thank you to those have serve.|One way governments have found to stop anyone from taking away our freedoms, is for the govt to take it away first, so there is none left for anyone else to take away. They did that with the Patriot act. Now you are so free you need a pasport ( government permission) to get in and out of your own country. They only have to talk about defending freedom ,while doing the exact opposite. There are enough people who are gullible enough to judge them by what they say, and not by what they do. They serv(ice ) us the way the bull services the cow. Beam me up Scotty. No inteligent life down here! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > ...and two shall become one. :) > > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28279|28241|2012-06-03 13:53:56|Doug Jackson|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|Hi Brent You're right, I added material to that center line more than a couple of times while building models.  That's actually 2", 1/4" thick angle.  Stiff but so is that 3" pipe on top.  I just got the transom in today and stretched that beam out.  It's actually fairly easy to do. As soon as the weight came off the cranes, she opened up nicely.     Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 11:37 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors   I checked out your building videos. The centreline of the plate should always be a smooth outside curve. If it curves the other way, it puckers inward. I found 1 1/2 inch angle a bit too stiff, which is what pulled your beam in too much. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > I drew that one.  It's not a tested design but it is close to other spade anchors I saw online. We've build one because we needed a dead-man and have a video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djMY12jXTNU%c3%82%c2%a0%c3%82%c2%a0 > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mark Hamill > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:31 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors > > >   > Downloaded the pattern to files as "Spade anchor pattern.jpg ". I notice that there a couple of other files dealing with a "Spade Anchor" MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28280|28280|2012-06-03 16:03:00|wild_explorer|Welding Safety (E6013 electrode)|According safety label on E6013 electrodes: Quote: "Fumes from the normal use of this product contain significant quantities of Manganese compound. The TLV (Threshold Limit Value) for manganese (0.2 mg/m3) will be exceeded before reaching the 5.0 mg/m3 maximum exposure guideline for general welding fume. Indoors - use local exhaust. Outdoors - a respirator may be required. Manganese over-exposure CAN AFFECT the CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM, resulting in impaired speech and movement. THIS condition is considered IRREVERSIBLE. End_of_Quote. Just an information... I found locally cheap new 5/32" E6013 ($1/Lb), but now I need to buy a respirator ;))| 28281|28281|2012-06-03 20:38:51|haidan|25' tom thumb|Hey there I'm looking at a 25'tom thumb for a friend of mine who's thinking of buying it, It's not in bad shape, looks as though the hull was sandblasted and painted fairly well, although it looks as though when they put the furring strips in after sandblasting but before painting, so of course the rust has worked it way out under the paint from every frame and furring strip and now the whole hull needs a good going over with a grinder and re-painted. Looks as though the hull thinkness is certainly thicker than 1/8" and 75% of the paint is still sticking pretty good. Laid in foam panels, 30 foot mast, no sails, awesome looking outboard bracket you could lift the boat from. I was wondering if any body out here knew anything about these Tom Thumbs, All I have found on them from the internet was that they're built with somewhat frameless or minimal frames, the design came from Graham Shannon and was bought by bruce roberts. who re-designed it a bit. They're pretty beamy for their length and have a pretty tubby bow. Here's the specs I pulled off the internet LOA: 7.26m (23′ 10″) LWL: 6.71m (22′ 0″) Beam: 2.92m (9′ 6″) Draft: 1.22m (4′ 0″) Displacement: 3,590 kg (7,900 lbs.) Ballast: 1,360kg (3,000 lbs.) Construction: Steel ( 10mm keel, 5mm hull, 3mm decking) Mast Height: 34′ 6″ above deck Sail Area, Main: 201 sq. ft. Sail Area, Genoa: 196 sq. ft. I guess I'm wondering how they sail and if anyones had any experience with them?| 28282|28281|2012-06-03 20:52:51|haidan|Re: 25' tom thumb|I guess I should say that the furring strips were epoxied to the hull after sand blasting, but after all these years the epoxy has lost it's hold and about 75% of the steel under them is still shinny metal. On some paper work I found on the boat it looks as though the boat was apparently registered originally to Anthony D Fay of Gibsons BC. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Hey there I'm looking at a 25'tom thumb for a friend of mine who's thinking of buying it, It's not in bad shape, looks as though the hull was sandblasted and painted fairly well, although it looks as though when they put the furring strips in after sandblasting but before painting, so of course the rust has worked it way out under the paint from every frame and furring strip and now the whole hull needs a good going over with a grinder and re-painted. Looks as though the hull thinkness is certainly thicker than 1/8" and 75% of the paint is still sticking pretty good. Laid in foam panels, 30 foot mast, no sails, awesome looking outboard bracket you could lift the boat from. I was wondering if any body out here knew anything about these Tom Thumbs, All I have found on them from the internet was that they're built with somewhat frameless or minimal frames, the design came from Graham Shannon and was bought by bruce roberts. who re-designed it a bit. They're pretty beamy for their length and have a pretty tubby bow. Here's the specs I pulled off the internet > LOA: 7.26m (23′ 10″) > LWL: 6.71m (22′ 0″) > Beam: 2.92m (9′ 6″) > Draft: 1.22m (4′ 0″) > Displacement: 3,590 kg (7,900 lbs.) > Ballast: 1,360kg (3,000 lbs.) > > Construction: Steel ( 10mm keel, 5mm hull, 3mm decking) > > Mast Height: 34′ 6″ above deck > > Sail Area, Main: 201 sq. ft. > Sail Area, Genoa: 196 sq. ft. > > I guess I'm wondering how they sail and if anyones had any experience with them? > | 28283|28244|2012-06-04 01:00:10|chris123|Re: Painting Systems|Ya know Brent...I always get an edumacation when you have time to respond to one of my enquiries!!! At the complete other end of the spectrum from what everyone else was telling me or what I read. Many thanks...:) /ch On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 12:59 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > Only epoxy or wasser tar will give you adequate protection. Oil based > house paint over that works well. You can sometimes find it free in > recycling depots. > Military surplus places sometimes have epoxy cheap. Epoxy is epoxy, only > the thickness counts. > A few years ago I walked into Industrial Plastics and asked the price of > epoxy tar. They said $44 a litre. I walked next door to Clovedale paints > and they said $44 a gallon. Same stuff, different prices. Avoid the > pretentious yuppie stores. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > wrote: > > > > Greets: > > > > Been doing a lot of reading on line with respect to painting steel > > vessels, from cleaners to primers to finish coat. Seems that there are > > a lot of products out there. Was wondering, to keep the budget > > reasonable what would be a good paint system that works for below the > > waterline, topsides and the decks. Ive even read that some folks use > > house paint on top sides and decks. As I am new to this and would like > > to save some money as this can be an expensive item, was wondering > > what others use and the type of performance they actually get. > > > > Best and kind regards > > > > /ch > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 3:49 PM, chris123 wrote: > > > Greets: > > > > > > Total nubie so pardon the question if its old. > > > > > > Paint > > > > > > 1. What is the recommended painting system below the water line. > > > > > > 2. What is the recommended painting system for top sides and decks > > > > > > The interior Ive come to understand is best treated with an epoxy tar > > > based product then insulated. > > > > > > Best and kind regards > > > > > > > > > -- > > > /ch > > > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28284|28241|2012-06-04 11:07:25|Darren Bos|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|Thanks Brent. An oversized take-apart spade looks like it could make a nice storm anchor, but a bent anchor shank that prevents the anchor from resetting in a big storm would be a bummer. Darren At 09:00 AM 03/06/2012, you wrote: > > >Anytime the deck gear breaks before the shank bends, the deck gear >is not strong enough. Deck gear, including chocks , should always be >far stronger than the biggest rope that will ever be used on it. >That is why my mooring bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength. >Stock production boats have abysmally flimsey deck gear. >We use t1 or AR plate for shanks on Deltas. I've heard qt100 is also good. | 28285|28241|2012-06-04 14:11:02|chris123|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|At the risk of sounding dumb....how do you handle a 130 lbs anchor and associated chain and rode. Assuming each section is 60lbs that is managable, but once assembled lowering overboard is not a solo effort unless you have a very solid winch. Now these are shown in Brents book and how to build one. but just to manhandle all that weight on deck of such a monster anchor, was wondering how you do it safely in a pitching boat? Best regards /ch On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Darren Bos wrote: > ** > > > Thanks Brent. An oversized take-apart spade looks like it could make > a nice storm anchor, but a bent anchor shank that prevents the anchor > from resetting in a big storm would be a bummer. > > Darren > > > At 09:00 AM 03/06/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Anytime the deck gear breaks before the shank bends, the deck gear > >is not strong enough. Deck gear, including chocks , should always be > >far stronger than the biggest rope that will ever be used on it. > >That is why my mooring bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength. > >Stock production boats have abysmally flimsey deck gear. > >We use t1 or AR plate for shanks on Deltas. I've heard qt100 is also good. > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28286|28286|2012-06-05 09:23:47|igor|steel rover plans|hi I am looking at trying to develop the Merrit Walter steel rover design to this style of building it is a 57 foot schooner of very heavy traditional scantlings ,my thoughts are that it could be done any thoughts and inforamtion from group would be good| 28287|28241|2012-06-05 10:46:30|m riley|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|assemble in cockpit and use boom to put it overboard mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28288|28241|2012-06-05 11:39:28|chris123|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|Make sense...but sound dangerous. Lots of places and ways to get snagged up with the chain or rode. No experience with this so just considering what would be involved. Best regards /ch On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 10:46 AM, m riley wrote: > ** > > > assemble in cockpit and use boom to put it overboard > mike > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28289|28241|2012-06-05 12:16:19|Matt Malone|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|Yes, launching and retrieving a religious anchor that is assembled in the cockpit is a challenge. I made one, about 40 pounds for my lake boat -- ridiculously, about 1% of the boat's weight -- but I sleep well at night and it has never moved an inch. Not much trouble in two hands, however, getting it over the side, and back on board without scraping anything that I really do not want to paint sooner than needed, is a real challenge. Still, if one has the warning, and time to prepare, I would sooner have one stored down by the ballast. Not sure about using the boom. The potential momentum it could build up if the boom even momentarily got free to swing... and the sharp projections... all at vital organ height... for only 40 pounds, I would sooner keep it in my hands -- serving just as well to hold it away from me as lift it. On a larger boat, one would need something for assistance, and there, the boom, fully guyed back to keep it under total control might be viable. A smaller swinging davit, where one could easily step out of its swing reach, mounted on the stern might be better and then one might use the aft deck to assemble and disassemble. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: chris.herrnberger@... > Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:39:26 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors > > Make sense...but sound dangerous. Lots of places and ways to get snagged up > with the chain or rode. No experience with this so just considering what > would be involved. > > Best regards > > /ch > > > On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 10:46 AM, m riley wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > assemble in cockpit and use boom to put it overboard > > mike > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28290|28286|2012-06-05 14:00:51|mauro gonzaga|Re: steel rover plans|Great, I have been looking with interest the steel rover. Interesting also this: http://georgebuehler.com/High%20Latitudes%20Drifter%2038.html Mauro ________________________________ From: igor To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 3:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] steel rover plans   hi I am looking at trying to develop the Merrit Walter steel rover design to this style of building it is a 57 foot schooner of very heavy traditional scantlings ,my thoughts are that it could be done any thoughts and inforamtion from group would be good [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28291|28286|2012-06-05 17:20:20|Maxime Camirand|Re: steel rover plans|I have been a fan of George Buehler for as long as I've liked boats, but he's not an experienced steel boatbuilder. He's built plenty in wood, and that's where his design background lies, too. He freely admits this. I think his steel designs reflect this. He's a great example of what Brent means when he talks about wood designers who transfer their notions to steel, resulting in a more labor-intensive and heavier boat. On 5 June 2012 14:00, mauro gonzaga wrote: > ** > > > Great, I have been looking with interest the steel rover. Interesting also > this: > http://georgebuehler.com/High%20Latitudes%20Drifter%2038.html > Mauro > > ________________________________ > From: igor > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 3:23 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] steel rover plans > > > > > hi I am looking at trying to develop the Merrit Walter steel rover design > to this style of building it is a 57 foot schooner of very heavy > traditional scantlings ,my thoughts are that it could be done any thoughts > and inforamtion from group would be good > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28292|28286|2012-06-05 17:40:10|Paul Wilson|Re: steel rover plans|You might like this.....a beautiful fair hull with some trimmings. It is in NZ which makes it even better :). http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/moored-boats/auction-480885386.htm A 57 foot schooner is one hell of a big project. You will pay more than buying a used boat so in my opinion I wouldn't attempt it unless it is going to be a labor of love. Best of luck, Paul On 6/06/2012 1:23 a.m., igor wrote: > > hi I am looking at trying to develop the Merrit Walter steel rover > design to this style of building it is a 57 foot schooner of very > heavy traditional scantlings ,my thoughts are that it could be done > any thoughts and inforamtion from group would be good > > | 28293|28286|2012-06-05 18:05:38|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: steel rover plans|I sailed with Merrit's two sons aboard a square rigger in the early 80's when Rover Marine's designs were receiving a lot of attention. Our captain originally wanted to refurbish an old Delaware Bay bugeye for the Maine/Key West schooner trade but switched to building a 57' Rover after finding rot throughout the bugeye. Between the captain and his mate, it took a year to build and outfit the Rover while they both also held down bartender jobs. The boat turned out beautiful and unfortunately I have lost track of it over the years. R/Jay Andros Is., Bahamas -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 5:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel rover plans You might like this.....a beautiful fair hull with some trimmings. It is in NZ which makes it even better :). http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/moored-boats/ auction-480885386.htm A 57 foot schooner is one hell of a big project. You will pay more than buying a used boat so in my opinion I wouldn't attempt it unless it is going to be a labor of love. Best of luck, Paul| 28294|28286|2012-06-05 18:42:38|Robert Jones|Re: steel rover plans|I agree and also love George, his knowledge and attitude. But, i have also talked to some steel duck owners that dearly love their boats and think they efficiency and seaworthiness can't be topped. Big building project though. Talked to some folks that not to long ago built one of his epoxy over plywood  50s. I am hoping to tour it in July. --- On Tue, 6/5/12, Maxime Camirand wrote: From: Maxime Camirand Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel rover plans To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 3:19 PM I have been a fan of George Buehler for as long as I've liked boats, but he's not an experienced steel boatbuilder. He's built plenty in wood, and that's where his design background lies, too. He freely admits this. I think his steel designs reflect this. He's a great example of what Brent means when he talks about wood designers who transfer their notions to steel, resulting in a more labor-intensive and heavier boat. On 5 June 2012 14:00, mauro gonzaga wrote: > ** > > > Great, I have been looking with interest the steel rover. Interesting also > this: > http://georgebuehler.com/High%20Latitudes%20Drifter%2038.html > Mauro > > ________________________________ > From: igor > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 3:23 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] steel rover plans > > > > > hi I am looking at trying to develop the Merrit Walter steel rover design > to this style of building it is a 57 foot schooner of very heavy > traditional scantlings ,my thoughts are that it could be done any thoughts > and inforamtion from group would be good > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28295|28286|2012-06-05 18:51:51|Maxime Camirand|Re: steel rover plans|I think they're good designs, lines-wise. I also think Buehler would probably think origami boatbuilding was a great idea. He just doesn't know much about steel boatbuilding. He says "if you can think of a better way, please do it that way". Basically the antithesis of the dogmatic designer. On 5 June 2012 18:42, Robert Jones wrote: > ** > > > I agree and also love George, his knowledge and attitude. But, i have also > talked to some steel duck owners that dearly love their boats and think > they efficiency and seaworthiness can't be topped. Big building project > though. Talked to some folks that not to long ago built one of his epoxy > over plywood 50s. I am hoping to tour it in July. > > --- On Tue, 6/5/12, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > From: Maxime Camirand > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel rover plans > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 3:19 PM > > > I have been a fan of George Buehler for as long as I've liked boats, but > he's not an experienced steel boatbuilder. He's built plenty in wood, and > that's where his design background lies, too. He freely admits this. I > think his steel designs reflect this. He's a great example of what Brent > means when he talks about wood designers who transfer their notions to > steel, resulting in a more labor-intensive and heavier boat. > > On 5 June 2012 14:00, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > Great, I have been looking with interest the steel rover. Interesting > also > > this: > > http://georgebuehler.com/High%20Latitudes%20Drifter%2038.html > > Mauro > > > > ________________________________ > > From: igor > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 3:23 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] steel rover plans > > > > > > > > > > hi I am looking at trying to develop the Merrit Walter steel rover design > > to this style of building it is a 57 foot schooner of very heavy > > traditional scantlings ,my thoughts are that it could be done any > thoughts > > and inforamtion from group would be good > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28296|28296|2012-06-05 21:13:31|wild_explorer|J.Simpson 35' Aluminum P/H Cutter|For someone who is interested in Aluminum sailboat, there is 35' Cutter (no mast, rigging) for sale in Portland, OR for around 30-35K Some information: Built 1994, Sea trial 1997 3/16" Aluminum Displacement - 15,300 Lb Ballast (lead) - 6,000 Lb LOA (incl. sprit) - 38'-0" LOA (hull) - 35'-10" Beam - 11'-0" Draft - 6' 3 cyl Yanmar 27 H.P. Fuel - 40 Gal Water - 75 Gal Waste - 50 Gal Solid foam insulation Note: Information was taken from the specs. You need to verify what is in reality there. Boat is on the hard. There are some designer's plans, specs, hydrostatics for the boat, receipts, etc. Hull is painted, some electrical work was done, etc. If someone is interested, send me email. I will forward it to the owner. You deal directly with the owner (including questions). I am just posting the information ;)| 28297|28297|2012-06-06 16:06:15|wild_explorer|Weld through Zinc primer|Does anybody know the price and where to find/buy (in US) Interplate 937 primer in small quantities? Or similar primer compatible with 937 for touch-up after welding?| 28298|21163|2012-06-06 21:31:44|Kim|Re: Mooring bits|Hi all ... Talking of the need for strong mooring bits, this story might be of interest: Last week a guy sailed his steel yacht from NZ to Australia. Unfortunately, his first contact with Australia was to run his boat onto the rocks near Bundaberg (a bit north of where I live) ... http://www.news-mail.com.au/story/2012/05/31/rocky-rest-yacht-owner/ From the "armchair experts" perspective, the single-handed skipper seems to have made various mistakes both prior to, and after, hitting the bricks. It seems that a bulldozer is now going to be involved in its recovery, because it doesn't have adequate mooring bits. What's of particular interest is the comment made by the local guy responsible for salvaging the boat, who said: "... the biggest problem was that when sailing yachts were built they did not include any anchor points where a towing cable could be attached". That's exactly what Brent keeps saying. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I have been sailing thru the Gulf Islands ( too yuppie for me) and seeing some very large ( 50 ft) very expensive steel boats, built by Kristen Yachts, which have next to nothing for bow mooring bits. One had no bow cleat of any kind, the nearest cleats being many feet back from the bow on either rail. Another had good looking cleats ,far from the bow, welded with tiny, jewelery sized tig welds. While the boats were beautifully finished, this would become a major problem if they ever left the land of marinas. I even saw one of mine, on which the owner had cut off the mooring bit ,and bolted a couple of dainty little cleats on. One night in Raro , or Marsden wharf in Auckland, etc, in a good northerly would show the foolishness of assuming that what works in a sheltered marina is all you need. I once sheered off 8 half inch bolts on 12 inch cleats in Noumea, in a good westerly. Friends broke two new one inch nylon springs in Raro, in a surge, breaking strength 25,000 lbs. A good solid mooring bit is one of the most common "wish I had one " item most offshore cruisers wish they had. > If you go aground, and a tug is available to pull you off, a couple of stainless 12 inch cleats just wont do, no matter how shiny and trendy they look. He is not going to hand you the end of a half inch Yacht braid for a tow line. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good reason. . > | 28299|21163|2012-06-07 11:11:14|Darren Bos|Japanese Debris|You can now add concrete piers, to the list of Tsunami debris you could hit in the Northern Pacific. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18349741 Darren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28300|21163|2012-06-07 11:57:29|Matt Malone|Re: Japanese Debris and revisiting the Religious Mooring Bits|Looking at this dock, and thinking about the most recent discussion on religious mooring bits made me wonder.... What would happen if one tied their boat to such a floating dock (where it was otherwise a good idea to do so) and it choose that time to sink and take your boat down with it by its religious mooring bits ? Or when rafting up to something big, that, well did something you did not want your boat dragged into... Or, lets say there is a mistake and a line fouls into a big prop and your boat gets winched in... Or something on a wharf that is supposed to slide up as the tide comes in gets jammed and does not slide up. I think I would like some normal mooring cleats on my boat that are meant to fail at a load one would not normally see exceeded. Yes, a set of religious mooring bits are handy, but, I would be careful how I use them. I would find them indispensable on say, a drying wall, and would use them regularly to do regular inspections and maintenance. BTW, I am guessing that "religious anchors" comes from the same source as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L_kxxwql40 Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: bosdg@... Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 08:13:39 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Japanese Debris You can now add concrete piers, to the list of Tsunami debris you could hit in the Northern Pacific. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18349741 Darren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28301|21163|2012-06-07 12:29:53|wild_explorer|Re: Japanese Debris and revisiting the Religious Mooring Bits|You limit the load by braking strength of the line/chain ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Looking at this dock, and thinking about the most recent discussion on religious mooring bits made me wonder.... > > What would happen if one tied their boat to such a floating dock (where it was otherwise a good idea to do so) and it choose that time to sink and take your boat down with it by its religious mooring bits ? Or when rafting up to something big, that, well did something you did not want your boat dragged into... Or, lets say there is a mistake and a line fouls into a big prop and your boat gets winched in... Or something on a wharf that is supposed to slide up as the tide comes in gets jammed and does not slide up. I think I would like some normal mooring cleats on my boat that are meant to fail at a load one would not normally see exceeded. | 28302|21163|2012-06-08 00:13:13|chris123|Re: Mooring bits|Having spend a few weeks parked next to a BoatUS/TowBoatUSA vessel, its was interesting to see the placement....both fore and aft. I used the service once in the Chespeake as it was mid winter and had a line wrapped around the prop so just dropped and anchor and waited. Guy came across the bay all the way from Baltimore, had me all tied and secured in less then 5 minutes and off we were back to the slip, while I was pulling in the rode. We chatted and mentioned that I admired his expertise...and how quickly he had complete control of the vessel. Blew me away. He mentioned that is was simple on my classic plastic as there were plenty of tie off points fore and aft and amid ship. Not always the case on modern plastic. Next day I called his boss and they all expected a complaint....twas not the case, I called to say thanks and how good the service was...they were not used to that but did pass it on to the lad. Even asked me to comment on the website as they rarely get thanks...seems strange. On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Kim wrote: > ** > > > > Hi all ... > > Talking of the need for strong mooring bits, this story might be of > interest: > > Last week a guy sailed his steel yacht from NZ to Australia. > Unfortunately, his first contact with Australia was to run his boat onto > the rocks near Bundaberg (a bit north of where I live) ... > > http://www.news-mail.com.au/story/2012/05/31/rocky-rest-yacht-owner/ > > From the "armchair experts" perspective, the single-handed skipper seems > to have made various mistakes both prior to, and after, hitting the bricks. > It seems that a bulldozer is now going to be involved in its recovery, > because it doesn't have adequate mooring bits. > > What's of particular interest is the comment made by the local guy > responsible for salvaging the boat, who said: "... the biggest problem was > that when sailing yachts were built they did not include any anchor points > where a towing cable could be attached". > > That's exactly what Brent keeps saying. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I have been sailing thru the Gulf Islands ( too yuppie for me) and > seeing some very large ( 50 ft) very expensive steel boats, built by > Kristen Yachts, which have next to nothing for bow mooring bits. One had no > bow cleat of any kind, the nearest cleats being many feet back from the bow > on either rail. Another had good looking cleats ,far from the bow, welded > with tiny, jewelery sized tig welds. While the boats were beautifully > finished, this would become a major problem if they ever left the land of > marinas. I even saw one of mine, on which the owner had cut off the mooring > bit ,and bolted a couple of dainty little cleats on. One night in Raro , or > Marsden wharf in Auckland, etc, in a good northerly would show the > foolishness of assuming that what works in a sheltered marina is all you > need. I once sheered off 8 half inch bolts on 12 inch cleats in Noumea, in > a good westerly. Friends broke two new one inch nylon springs in Raro, in a > surge, breaking strength 25,000 lbs. A good solid mooring bit is one of the > most common "wish I had one " item most offshore cruisers wish they had. > > If you go aground, and a tug is available to pull you off, a couple of > stainless 12 inch cleats just wont do, no matter how shiny and trendy they > look. He is not going to hand you the end of a half inch Yacht braid for a > tow line. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good > reason. . > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28303|28241|2012-06-08 15:01:09|martin demers|Re: Mooring bits--Welding|James, Thanks for the offer, I will stick with 7018 martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 18:12:50 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Welding Use 309L to weld the stainless to mild steel. Look for some on line. I am picking up 20lb for $100 How much will you need? James --- On Sat, 6/2/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Welding To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 7:21 PM Being in the mooring bits subject I take the opportunity to ask if the mooring bits can be welded to the deck using regular welding rods, I find stainless rods on the expensive side...! Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:45:27 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors LOL Thanks, but you didn't need to do that. I didn't design it, I drew it. Which is a polite way of saying, I stole it. :) Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors Doug: I changed file to note you designed it and a reference to the YouTube page.Thanks, MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28304|21163|2012-06-08 16:08:07|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bits|Modern plastic is designed on the assumption that they will spend their entire lives in a sheltered marina. They are not designed for anything else, like the real world. Sadly, the assumption is all too often true. That has much to do with their overinflated price, which leave the owner too broke to use her. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Having spend a few weeks parked next to a BoatUS/TowBoatUSA vessel, its was > interesting to see the placement....both fore and aft. > > I used the service once in the Chespeake as it was mid winter and had a > line wrapped around the prop so just dropped and anchor and waited. Guy > came across the bay all the way from Baltimore, had me all tied and secured > in less then 5 minutes and off we were back to the slip, while I was > pulling in the rode. We chatted and mentioned that I admired his > expertise...and how quickly he had complete control of the vessel. Blew me > away. He mentioned that is was simple on my classic plastic as there were > plenty of tie off points fore and aft and amid ship. Not always the case on > modern plastic. Next day I called his boss and they all expected a > complaint....twas not the case, I called to say thanks and how good the > service was...they were not used to that but did pass it on to the lad. > Even asked me to comment on the website as they rarely get thanks...seems > strange. > > On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Kim wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > > Hi all ... > > > > Talking of the need for strong mooring bits, this story might be of > > interest: > > > > Last week a guy sailed his steel yacht from NZ to Australia. > > Unfortunately, his first contact with Australia was to run his boat onto > > the rocks near Bundaberg (a bit north of where I live) ... > > > > http://www.news-mail.com.au/story/2012/05/31/rocky-rest-yacht-owner/ > > > > From the "armchair experts" perspective, the single-handed skipper seems > > to have made various mistakes both prior to, and after, hitting the bricks. > > It seems that a bulldozer is now going to be involved in its recovery, > > because it doesn't have adequate mooring bits. > > > > What's of particular interest is the comment made by the local guy > > responsible for salvaging the boat, who said: "... the biggest problem was > > that when sailing yachts were built they did not include any anchor points > > where a towing cable could be attached". > > > > That's exactly what Brent keeps saying. > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I have been sailing thru the Gulf Islands ( too yuppie for me) and > > seeing some very large ( 50 ft) very expensive steel boats, built by > > Kristen Yachts, which have next to nothing for bow mooring bits. One had no > > bow cleat of any kind, the nearest cleats being many feet back from the bow > > on either rail. Another had good looking cleats ,far from the bow, welded > > with tiny, jewelery sized tig welds. While the boats were beautifully > > finished, this would become a major problem if they ever left the land of > > marinas. I even saw one of mine, on which the owner had cut off the mooring > > bit ,and bolted a couple of dainty little cleats on. One night in Raro , or > > Marsden wharf in Auckland, etc, in a good northerly would show the > > foolishness of assuming that what works in a sheltered marina is all you > > need. I once sheered off 8 half inch bolts on 12 inch cleats in Noumea, in > > a good westerly. Friends broke two new one inch nylon springs in Raro, in a > > surge, breaking strength 25,000 lbs. A good solid mooring bit is one of the > > most common "wish I had one " item most offshore cruisers wish they had. > > > If you go aground, and a tug is available to pull you off, a couple of > > stainless 12 inch cleats just wont do, no matter how shiny and trendy they > > look. He is not going to hand you the end of a half inch Yacht braid for a > > tow line. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good > > reason. . > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28305|28244|2012-06-08 16:15:37|brentswain38|Re: Painting Systems|Above the waterline , it's good to get a good, inorganic cold galvanizing primer on , after sandblasting. That way, if you chip the paint, the primer remains, to give you a bit of time before touch up, . With out the primer, it chips to bare steel which begins to rust far more quickly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Ya know Brent...I always get an edumacation when you have time to respond > to one of my enquiries!!! At the complete other end of the spectrum from > what everyone else was telling me or what I read. > > Many thanks...:) > > /ch > > > On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 12:59 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Only epoxy or wasser tar will give you adequate protection. Oil based > > house paint over that works well. You can sometimes find it free in > > recycling depots. > > Military surplus places sometimes have epoxy cheap. Epoxy is epoxy, only > > the thickness counts. > > A few years ago I walked into Industrial Plastics and asked the price of > > epoxy tar. They said $44 a litre. I walked next door to Clovedale paints > > and they said $44 a gallon. Same stuff, different prices. Avoid the > > pretentious yuppie stores. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > > wrote: > > > > > > Greets: > > > > > > Been doing a lot of reading on line with respect to painting steel > > > vessels, from cleaners to primers to finish coat. Seems that there are > > > a lot of products out there. Was wondering, to keep the budget > > > reasonable what would be a good paint system that works for below the > > > waterline, topsides and the decks. Ive even read that some folks use > > > house paint on top sides and decks. As I am new to this and would like > > > to save some money as this can be an expensive item, was wondering > > > what others use and the type of performance they actually get. > > > > > > Best and kind regards > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 3:49 PM, chris123 wrote: > > > > Greets: > > > > > > > > Total nubie so pardon the question if its old. > > > > > > > > Paint > > > > > > > > 1. What is the recommended painting system below the water line. > > > > > > > > 2. What is the recommended painting system for top sides and decks > > > > > > > > The interior Ive come to understand is best treated with an epoxy tar > > > > based product then insulated. > > > > > > > > Best and kind regards > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28306|28286|2012-06-08 16:18:32|brentswain38|Re: steel rover plans|i see no problem. Experimenting with a model would be a good idea, which could save you a lot of time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "igor" wrote: > > hi I am looking at trying to develop the Merrit Walter steel rover design to this style of building it is a 57 foot schooner of very heavy traditional scantlings ,my thoughts are that it could be done any thoughts and inforamtion from group would be good > | 28307|28241|2012-06-08 16:21:24|brentswain38|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|Give her lots of , rode , more than the depth of the water, then just roll her overboard. You could hang down a bit of carpet, or a piece of plywood, to protect the hull, as she goes over. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Yes, launching and retrieving a religious anchor that is assembled in the cockpit is a challenge. I made one, about 40 pounds for my lake boat -- ridiculously, about 1% of the boat's weight -- but I sleep well at night and it has never moved an inch. Not much trouble in two hands, however, getting it over the side, and back on board without scraping anything that I really do not want to paint sooner than needed, is a real challenge. Still, if one has the warning, and time to prepare, I would sooner have one stored down by the ballast. Not sure about using the boom. The potential momentum it could build up if the boom even momentarily got free to swing... and the sharp projections... all at vital organ height... for only 40 pounds, I would sooner keep it in my hands -- serving just as well to hold it away from me as lift it. On a larger boat, one would need something for assistance, and there, the boom, fully guyed back to keep it under total control might be viable. A smaller swinging davit, where one could easily step out of its swing reach, mounted on the stern might be better and then one might use the aft deck to assemble and disassemble. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: chris.herrnberger@... > > Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:39:26 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors > > > > Make sense...but sound dangerous. Lots of places and ways to get snagged up > > with the chain or rode. No experience with this so just considering what > > would be involved. > > > > Best regards > > > > /ch > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 10:46 AM, m riley wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > assemble in cockpit and use boom to put it overboard > > > mike > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28308|28286|2012-06-08 16:36:47|brentswain38|Re: steel rover plans|Interesting article. You could convert her to polyconic ends, and get a smoother, easier to build hull. The pipe the mast fits in could be problematic. Water will inevitably fill that pipe up over time , causing corrosion problems in the pipe and rot problems in the mast. You would have to drain the pipe from time to time. Fortunately stainless pipe is available cheap, wherever there are pulp mills or the oil industry. A handful of salt thrown in from time to time will pickle the mast and eliminate the rot problem. However, I see little advantage of a keel stepped mast over a deck stepped on , on a steel boat, given how complicated this proposal makes things. It's great to see Buhler has taken the excessive flare out of his hulls, a factor which made his previous designs extremely tender. A cabin only weakens a wood or fibreglass deck. On a welded steel deck and cabin , it makes things stronger, the cabinsides acting as longitudinal steel girders. The higher camber of the cabin top also adds strength, and with its higher buoyancy, greatly improves the boat's ultimate stability, and self righting ability. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Great, I have been looking with interest the steel rover. Interesting also this: > http://georgebuehler.com/High%20Latitudes%20Drifter%2038.html > Mauro > > > ________________________________ > From: igor > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 3:23 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] steel rover plans > > >   > hi I am looking at trying to develop the Merrit Walter steel rover design to this style of building it is a 57 foot schooner of very heavy traditional scantlings ,my thoughts are that it could be done any thoughts and inforamtion from group would be good > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28309|28286|2012-06-08 16:39:39|brentswain38|Re: steel rover plans|Good point Paul. Begs the question. Why 57 feet? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > You might like this.....a beautiful fair hull with some trimmings. It is > in NZ which makes it even better :). > > http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/moored-boats/auction-480885386.htm > > A 57 foot schooner is one hell of a big project. You will pay more than > buying a used boat so in my opinion I wouldn't attempt it unless it is > going to be a labor of love. > > Best of luck, Paul > > On 6/06/2012 1:23 a.m., igor wrote: > > > > hi I am looking at trying to develop the Merrit Walter steel rover > > design to this style of building it is a 57 foot schooner of very > > heavy traditional scantlings ,my thoughts are that it could be done > > any thoughts and inforamtion from group would be good > > > > > | 28310|21163|2012-06-08 16:50:54|brentswain38|Re: Japanese Debris and revisiting the Religious Mooring Bits|You describe extremely rare situations. The likelihood of them is infinitely less than cleats failing when they need to survive. Bruce Roberts said skegs should be designed to fall off if they hit anything, so they wont take too much hull with them if they do. The results have been skegs falling off in mid ocean. Not much 'Wisdom" in making things deliberately flimsy. Use a smaller line, if that is what you want. Lines are cheap to replace, and you know if they are likely to break. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Looking at this dock, and thinking about the most recent discussion on religious mooring bits made me wonder.... > > What would happen if one tied their boat to such a floating dock (where it was otherwise a good idea to do so) and it choose that time to sink and take your boat down with it by its religious mooring bits ? Or when rafting up to something big, that, well did something you did not want your boat dragged into... Or, lets say there is a mistake and a line fouls into a big prop and your boat gets winched in... Or something on a wharf that is supposed to slide up as the tide comes in gets jammed and does not slide up. I think I would like some normal mooring cleats on my boat that are meant to fail at a load one would not normally see exceeded. Yes, a set of religious mooring bits are handy, but, I would be careful how I use them. I would find them indispensable on say, a drying wall, and would use them regularly to do regular inspections and maintenance. > > BTW, I am guessing that "religious anchors" comes from the same source as this: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L_kxxwql40 > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: bosdg@... > Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 08:13:39 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Japanese Debris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can now add concrete piers, to the list of Tsunami debris you > > could hit in the Northern Pacific. > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18349741 > > > > Darren > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28311|21163|2012-06-08 16:55:43|brentswain38|Re: Japanese Debris|Reminds me of that hillbilly half wit, who calls himself "Fitter Mike" who, after claiming my steel boats were not strong enough, because they don't have transverse frames , bought a stock plastic boat, with none, to sail thru that debris field in. I wonder if he is still treading water! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > You can now add concrete piers, to the list of Tsunami debris you > could hit in the Northern Pacific. > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18349741 > > > Darren > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28312|28241|2012-06-08 17:36:54|Mark Hamill|Re: Mooring bits--Religious anchors|To protect fininsh--Failing carpet--children and spouses can be used though more noisy--never use a dog though cats are acceptable. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28313|21163|2012-06-09 13:38:29|chris123|Re: Mooring bits|Classic plastic vs modern plastic is at an all time low. Some 2.5 million units for sale. A B-29 with minor encapsulated keel damage just sold in Toronto for 5K. Lowest Ive ever seen. Inspected the boat, was run up on the rocks, shitting repair job and you could see rust bleading out. Not a problem at all. Drill three holes in the bildge, pour in oil and let her sit till the oil seeps out. Steel from for the ballast stabilized. Clean her up and do the patch properly and you have a good boat for many years. Marina manager was a door knob. Would not let me do the repair on site. Wanted a fortune to splash her....so just walked away. /ch On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 4:08 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > Modern plastic is designed on the assumption that they will spend their > entire lives in a sheltered marina. They are not designed for anything > else, like the real world. Sadly, the assumption is all too often true. > That has much to do with their overinflated price, which leave the owner > too broke to use her. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > wrote: > > > > Having spend a few weeks parked next to a BoatUS/TowBoatUSA vessel, its > was > > interesting to see the placement....both fore and aft. > > > > I used the service once in the Chespeake as it was mid winter and had a > > line wrapped around the prop so just dropped and anchor and waited. Guy > > came across the bay all the way from Baltimore, had me all tied and > secured > > in less then 5 minutes and off we were back to the slip, while I was > > pulling in the rode. We chatted and mentioned that I admired his > > expertise...and how quickly he had complete control of the vessel. Blew > me > > away. He mentioned that is was simple on my classic plastic as there were > > plenty of tie off points fore and aft and amid ship. Not always the case > on > > modern plastic. Next day I called his boss and they all expected a > > complaint....twas not the case, I called to say thanks and how good the > > service was...they were not used to that but did pass it on to the lad. > > Even asked me to comment on the website as they rarely get thanks...seems > > strange. > > > > On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Kim wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all ... > > > > > > Talking of the need for strong mooring bits, this story might be of > > > interest: > > > > > > Last week a guy sailed his steel yacht from NZ to Australia. > > > Unfortunately, his first contact with Australia was to run his boat > onto > > > the rocks near Bundaberg (a bit north of where I live) ... > > > > > > http://www.news-mail.com.au/story/2012/05/31/rocky-rest-yacht-owner/ > > > > > > From the "armchair experts" perspective, the single-handed skipper > seems > > > to have made various mistakes both prior to, and after, hitting the > bricks. > > > It seems that a bulldozer is now going to be involved in its recovery, > > > because it doesn't have adequate mooring bits. > > > > > > What's of particular interest is the comment made by the local guy > > > responsible for salvaging the boat, who said: "... the biggest problem > was > > > that when sailing yachts were built they did not include any anchor > points > > > where a towing cable could be attached". > > > > > > That's exactly what Brent keeps saying. > > > > > > Cheers ... > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I have been sailing thru the Gulf Islands ( too yuppie for me) and > > > seeing some very large ( 50 ft) very expensive steel boats, built by > > > Kristen Yachts, which have next to nothing for bow mooring bits. One > had no > > > bow cleat of any kind, the nearest cleats being many feet back from > the bow > > > on either rail. Another had good looking cleats ,far from the bow, > welded > > > with tiny, jewelery sized tig welds. While the boats were beautifully > > > finished, this would become a major problem if they ever left the land > of > > > marinas. I even saw one of mine, on which the owner had cut off the > mooring > > > bit ,and bolted a couple of dainty little cleats on. One night in Raro > , or > > > Marsden wharf in Auckland, etc, in a good northerly would show the > > > foolishness of assuming that what works in a sheltered marina is all > you > > > need. I once sheered off 8 half inch bolts on 12 inch cleats in > Noumea, in > > > a good westerly. Friends broke two new one inch nylon springs in Raro, > in a > > > surge, breaking strength 25,000 lbs. A good solid mooring bit is one > of the > > > most common "wish I had one " item most offshore cruisers wish they > had. > > > > If you go aground, and a tug is available to pull you off, a couple > of > > > stainless 12 inch cleats just wont do, no matter how shiny and trendy > they > > > look. He is not going to hand you the end of a half inch Yacht braid > for a > > > tow line. My bits are designed for 90 tons sheer strength for a good > > > reason. . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28314|28314|2012-06-09 17:01:47|brentswain38|Nanaimo hostility|Nanaimo port Authority has announced a drastic increase in planned RCMP harassment of boaters there, for this coming summer. Give Nanaimo a miss.| 28315|28315|2012-06-10 01:08:16|steve|Thoughts on Sailing Magazines and Insurance|I was leafing through a magazine in a bookstore today. The mag is called 'Canadian Yachting West'. Similar to Pacific Yachting but even glossier. Really interesting article , several pages long , on why boatowners should NOT do work or jobs on their own boat, not safe at all. I had to scan through a bit to actually confirm the point. Of course this should not surprise me , but it was so blatant. I laughed out loud. Then I noticed that many of the ads in the mag were for insurance companies. Repeated recommendations in the article to 'always get a good marine surveyor', which hearkens back to another recent thread on this forum. Contradiction in terms. Haidan is lucky. Now he has constant access to one of those 'marine technicians' and his days of DIY jobs are over. (joke) Speaking of insurance , I have actually been asked for 'proof of insurance ' in two places over the past few years. The first was in Ensenada, Mexico , and the second place was in Puerto Williams ,Chile. I do actually have liability insurance for the boat , as a rider on house insurance for about $27 per year, and I was prescient enough to photocopy the certificate, all in English,and that was satisfactory. Other folks though who are not burdened with house ownership, were easily able to design and print a very official looking 'insurance cerificate' that saved face for all parties. They did this in a local internet cafe with a printer, took about 30 minutes. The Mexican and Chilean functionaries seem to realise that the required insurance is so abstract as to be ridiculous. I wonder if anyone has insurance that would compensate the Chilean Armada for heading out overnight to pull your boat off the beach, as often happens. I am sure that's what they want, along with insurance to cover the cost of cleaning up after a wrecked and abandoned yacht. However, after talking with the skipper of the Armada Rescue Cutter in the Cape Horn area, what he really wants is for yachties to help each other as much as possible, but to call by radio when needed , and they will help regardless. cheers| 28316|28314|2012-06-10 12:00:00|chris123|Re: Nanaimo hostility|Around here they chase the power boaters and leave the sailing crowd alone. Actually never bother them at all....so whats the story on Nanaimo? On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 5:01 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > Nanaimo port Authority has announced a drastic increase in planned RCMP > harassment of boaters there, for this coming summer. > Give Nanaimo a miss. > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28317|28314|2012-06-10 12:59:55|chris123|Re: Nanaimo hostility|This may have something to do with it. Did not realize that the Port Authority is a private company. http://www2.canada.com/nanaimodailynews/news/story.html?id=4bf3c07d-e30e-4230-9452-62229f4fb8ee /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28318|28318|2012-06-11 01:20:26|wild_explorer|Using roaster oven for electrodes baking?|Is it possible to use roaster oven for baking E7018 electrodes? I see that the temperature range of this type of oven is 150-450F. According to this link, http://www.rodovens.com/welding_articles/storage_electrodes.htm after opening E7018 it is need to store it at temperature 250-300F. Re-drying 500-800F (final 700-800F). It is possible to re-pack electrodes in sealed bags immediately after opening, but... Did anybody tried to use those roaster ovens for baking electrodes? Price range is about $50...| 28319|28318|2012-06-11 10:07:06|mauro gonzaga|Re: Using roaster oven for electrodes baking?|Sure, but read the instructions on the box: (by heart I say: 300 - 350 °C for 1 0r 2 hours). this is called "baking" or reconditioning. Mauro ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 7:20 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Using roaster oven for electrodes baking?   Is it possible to use roaster oven for baking E7018 electrodes? I see that the temperature range of this type of oven is 150-450F. According to this link, http://www.rodovens.com/welding_articles/storage_electrodes.htm after opening E7018 it is need to store it at temperature 250-300F. Re-drying 500-800F (final 700-800F). It is possible to re-pack electrodes in sealed bags immediately after opening, but... Did anybody tried to use those roaster ovens for baking electrodes? Price range is about $50... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28320|28318|2012-06-11 11:22:37|wild_explorer|Re: Using roaster oven for electrodes baking?|Those household roaster ovens (table top type) have temperature slightly lower that needed. Lower recommended FINAL re-drying temperature for E7018 is 650F (340C.) Oven's T is only 150-450F (65-230C). Is it acceptable? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Sure, but read the instructions on the box: (by heart I say: 300 - 350 °C for 1 0r 2 hours). this is called "baking" or reconditioning. > Mauro > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 7:20 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Using roaster oven for electrodes baking? > > >   > Is it possible to use roaster oven for baking E7018 electrodes? > > I see that the temperature range of this type of oven is 150-450F. > > According to this link, > > http://www.rodovens.com/welding_articles/storage_electrodes.htm > > after opening E7018 it is need to store it at temperature 250-300F. Re-drying 500-800F (final 700-800F). > > It is possible to re-pack electrodes in sealed bags immediately after opening, but... Did anybody tried to use those roaster ovens for baking electrodes? Price range is about $50... > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28321|28318|2012-06-11 11:29:27|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Using roaster oven for electrodes baking?|Re: Keeping your rods dry Use a metal pail with a lid. Mount a 100W bulb and socket inside. Lay the pail on its' side. Place a rectangle of expanded metal in the pail, lay the rods on the expanded metal tray, put the lid on and ug in the bulb. It will keep the rods hot and dry. Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: wild_explorer Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 05:20:24 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Using roaster oven for electrodes baking? Is it possible to use roaster oven for baking E7018 electrodes? I see that the temperature range of this type of oven is 150-450F. According to this link, http://www.rodovens.com/welding_articles/storage_electrodes.htm after opening E7018 it is need to store it at temperature 250-300F. Re-drying 500-800F (final 700-800F). It is possible to re-pack electrodes in sealed bags immediately after opening, but... Did anybody tried to use those roaster ovens for baking electrodes? Price range is about $50... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28322|28322|2012-06-11 15:14:40|JOHN|mooring bits|Has anyone used chrome plated hydraulic rams? It seems the use of 309 rods is to increase chrome content of weld? I bought some old mil spec rods from Oregon state surplus mil spec 347-15. 347 alloy seems to have good corrosion capability and does not work harden. I am thinking of using this rod simular to hard surfacing on wear edges of heavy equipment. Any ideas? John| 28323|28314|2012-06-11 15:15:24|Dennis Mcfadden|Re: Nanaimo hostility|This was announced where / when ..? Newspapers, TV? Could you give me a link to the announcement. Thanks, Dennis in Vancouver. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 21:01:45 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Nanaimo hostility Nanaimo port Authority has announced a drastic increase in planned RCMP harassment of boaters there, for this coming summer. Give Nanaimo a miss. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28324|28324|2012-06-11 15:18:05|kjdtrol63|jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel?|Hi all I am just preparing for some work on my 40' steelie. 30 y.o. with a bit of rust here and there on deck or where deck meets sides. I want to cut some of this out here and there. I am worried about using a grinder or plasma cutter because they are likely to spray hot metal over nice interior wood. I saw a comment on another website about cutting steel using a jigsaw with a steel blade. I got 4mm (5/32) hull and deck. I also wondered about those reciprocating saws (say Milwaukee M18 Hackzall). Makita 4350FCT jigsaw (720w) user manual says it can do 10mm (3/8) thick steel. Has anyone tried jigsaws or reciprocating saws to cut steel – will one or the other do the job? Any idea how long blades last for 4mm steel? Cheers| 28325|28324|2012-06-11 15:22:33|Matt Malone|Re: jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel?|My problem with either a jig saw or reciprocating saw is trying to cut metal that is too thin. At least with a reciprocating saw, one might recline the blade so that more teeth are bearing through the thickness of metal. This, a grinder and a "metal" blade in a wood saw are all I have used to cut metal. The "metal" blade on a saw is faster but there are sparks. I would catch them on wet cloth. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kymd@... Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:29:56 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel? Hi all I am just preparing for some work on my 40' steelie. 30 y.o. with a bit of rust here and there on deck or where deck meets sides. I want to cut some of this out here and there. I am worried about using a grinder or plasma cutter because they are likely to spray hot metal over nice interior wood. I saw a comment on another website about cutting steel using a jigsaw with a steel blade. I got 4mm (5/32) hull and deck. I also wondered about those reciprocating saws (say Milwaukee M18 Hackzall). Makita 4350FCT jigsaw (720w) user manual says it can do 10mm (3/8) thick steel. Has anyone tried jigsaws or reciprocating saws to cut steel � will one or the other do the job? Any idea how long blades last for 4mm steel? Cheers [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28326|28315|2012-06-11 15:26:37|brentswain38|Re: Thoughts on Sailing Magazines and Insurance|The Yachtie consumerism message that "You really should empty your pockets in MY direction, as anything less would be irresponsible" Is the suckers game, which keeps many cruisers tied to the dock, while being milked into old age by the marine industry.I am proud to have been banned from many of their sites, for having tried to inform people of alternatives to filling their pockets, for inferior gear and boats. The contempt of assholes is the sincerest form of flattery, as by their contempt they are admitting you are not one of them. If they liked me, that would be an extreme insult. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > I was leafing through a magazine in a bookstore today. The mag is called 'Canadian Yachting West'. Similar to Pacific Yachting but even glossier. > > Really interesting article , several pages long , on why boatowners should NOT do work or jobs on their own boat, not safe at all. I had to scan through a bit to actually confirm the point. Of course this should not surprise me , but it was so blatant. I laughed out loud. > Then I noticed that many of the ads in the mag were for insurance companies. > > Repeated recommendations in the article to 'always get a good marine surveyor', which hearkens back to another recent thread on this forum. Contradiction in terms. > > Haidan is lucky. Now he has constant access to one of those 'marine technicians' and his days of DIY jobs are over. (joke) > > Speaking of insurance , I have actually been asked for 'proof of insurance ' in two places over the past few years. The first was in Ensenada, Mexico , and the second place was in Puerto Williams ,Chile. > > I do actually have liability insurance for the boat , as a rider on house insurance for about $27 per year, and I was prescient enough to photocopy the certificate, all in English,and that was satisfactory. Other folks though who are not burdened with house ownership, were easily able to design and print a very official looking 'insurance cerificate' that saved face for all parties. They did this in a local internet cafe with a printer, took about 30 minutes. The Mexican and Chilean functionaries seem to realise that the required insurance is so abstract as to be ridiculous. > > I wonder if anyone has insurance that would compensate the Chilean Armada for heading out overnight to pull your boat off the beach, as often happens. I am sure that's what they want, along with insurance to cover the cost of cleaning up after a wrecked and abandoned yacht. > > However, after talking with the skipper of the Armada Rescue Cutter in the Cape Horn area, what he really wants is for yachties to help each other as much as possible, but to call by radio when needed , and they will help regardless. > cheers > | 28327|28324|2012-06-11 15:31:39|brentswain38|Re: jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel?|Yes they work well. A friend had his Roberts Spray blow ashore in Hilo. Altho it was never holed ,the frames and ten gauge hull made for many severe dents. He cut them all out with a sawzall, and swore by it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kjdtrol63" wrote: > > Hi all > > I am just preparing for some work on my 40' steelie. 30 y.o. with a bit of rust here and there on deck or where deck meets sides. I want to cut some of this out here and there. I am worried about using a grinder or plasma cutter because they are likely to spray hot metal over nice interior wood. > > I saw a comment on another website about cutting steel using a jigsaw with a steel blade. I got 4mm (5/32) hull and deck. I also wondered about those reciprocating saws (say Milwaukee M18 Hackzall). Makita 4350FCT jigsaw (720w) user manual says it can do 10mm (3/8) thick steel. > > Has anyone tried jigsaws or reciprocating saws to cut steel – will one or the other do the job? Any idea how long blades last for 4mm steel? > > Cheers > | 28328|28314|2012-06-11 15:34:24|brentswain38|Re: Nanaimo hostility|A friend, who spends a lot of time there, said she read it in a local paper there. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Mcfadden wrote: > > > This was announced where / when ..? Newspapers, TV? Could you give me a link to the announcement. Thanks, Dennis in Vancouver. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 21:01:45 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Nanaimo hostility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nanaimo port Authority has announced a drastic increase in planned RCMP harassment of boaters there, for this coming summer. > > Give Nanaimo a miss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28329|28324|2012-06-11 15:34:48|brentswain38|Re: jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel?|Much finer, more teeth per inch is the solution to thinner metal. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > My problem with either a jig saw or reciprocating saw is trying to cut metal that is too thin. At least with a reciprocating saw, one might recline the blade so that more teeth are bearing through the thickness of metal. This, a grinder and a "metal" blade in a wood saw are all I have used to cut metal. The "metal" blade on a saw is faster but there are sparks. I would catch them on wet cloth. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kymd@... > Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:29:56 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all > > > > I am just preparing for some work on my 40' steelie. 30 y.o. with a bit of rust here and there on deck or where deck meets sides. I want to cut some of this out here and there. I am worried about using a grinder or plasma cutter because they are likely to spray hot metal over nice interior wood. > > > > I saw a comment on another website about cutting steel using a jigsaw with a steel blade. I got 4mm (5/32) hull and deck. I also wondered about those reciprocating saws (say Milwaukee M18 Hackzall). Makita 4350FCT jigsaw (720w) user manual says it can do 10mm (3/8) thick steel. > > > > Has anyone tried jigsaws or reciprocating saws to cut steel – will one or the other do the job? Any idea how long blades last for 4mm steel? > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28330|28314|2012-06-11 15:38:19|brentswain38|Re: Nanaimo hostility|She showed me the article , but I can't remember which paper it was in. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A friend, who spends a lot of time there, said she read it in a local paper there. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Mcfadden wrote: > > > > > > This was announced where / when ..? Newspapers, TV? Could you give me a link to the announcement. Thanks, Dennis in Vancouver. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@ > > Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 21:01:45 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Nanaimo hostility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nanaimo port Authority has announced a drastic increase in planned RCMP harassment of boaters there, for this coming summer. > > > > Give Nanaimo a miss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 28331|28322|2012-06-11 18:58:51|john dean|Re: mooring bits|John You got it, the rod has to work after being diluted in the welding process. Dissimilar welds are common you can probably find the AWS, ASME, API or other standard welding procedures. --- On Mon, 6/11/12, JOHN wrote: From: JOHN Subject: [origamiboats] mooring bits To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 12:06 PM Has anyone used chrome plated hydraulic rams?  It seems the use of 309 rods is to increase chrome content of weld?  I bought some old mil spec rods from Oregon state surplus mil spec 347-15.  347 alloy seems to have good corrosion capability and does not work harden.  I am thinking of using this rod simular to hard surfacing on wear edges of heavy equipment. Any ideas?  John ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28332|28324|2012-06-11 20:45:22|Gary H. Lucas|Re: jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel?|I've cut lots of steel with a saber saw. A couple of things that help a lot. Get a saw with blade oscillation. The blade goes forward on the up cut stroke, and backwards on the down stroke so the teeth don't drag. This greatly improves blade life. Use a blade that has at least two teeth in the metal at a all times, but not much finer than that. If you use a fine blade the saw can't cut with all the teeth so they just skid over the surface and get hot. Use a variable speed saw, and a very slow blade speed. Use a lubricant, the stick wax applied to the blade works well. Hold the saw down to the surface very tightly, and keep good pressure against the cut. If the blade pitch, speed and oscillation are all right it will cut like a nibbler, quickly with big chips and very little heat. I have cut lots of steel and stainless from 16 ga. to 3/4" thick using these tricks. I don't care for a sawsall for cutting sheet steel. They are great for cutting off pipes and angle, but they don't do a great job on sheet metal. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Matt Malone Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 3:22 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel? My problem with either a jig saw or reciprocating saw is trying to cut metal that is too thin. At least with a reciprocating saw, one might recline the blade so that more teeth are bearing through the thickness of metal. This, a grinder and a "metal" blade in a wood saw are all I have used to cut metal. The "metal" blade on a saw is faster but there are sparks. I would catch them on wet cloth. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kymd@... Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:29:56 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel? Hi all I am just preparing for some work on my 40' steelie. 30 y.o. with a bit of rust here and there on deck or where deck meets sides. I want to cut some of this out here and there. I am worried about using a grinder or plasma cutter because they are likely to spray hot metal over nice interior wood. I saw a comment on another website about cutting steel using a jigsaw with a steel blade. I got 4mm (5/32) hull and deck. I also wondered about those reciprocating saws (say Milwaukee M18 Hackzall). Makita 4350FCT jigsaw (720w) user manual says it can do 10mm (3/8) thick steel. Has anyone tried jigsaws or reciprocating saws to cut steel – will one or the other do the job? Any idea how long blades last for 4mm steel? Cheers [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/| 28333|28315|2012-06-12 09:29:23|chris123|Re: Thoughts on Sailing Magazines and Insurance|The industry is dieing a slow death. There are over 2.5 million units for sale in the States alone. The only way manufacturer can make any money is to sell you a high end product as it has the highest margins. Motorcycles went through this cycle. In the 70's X millions of units were sold from 250cc to 1200 cc. and the prices started at under a 1000 new/. Today look at what you can buy and look at the price of new product. Guess in what period of time profit margins were higher...:) Im still waiting for a new Honda 360T to come out......could not kill that sucker. Took me through 6 years of university (it was a good place to hang out as tuition was cheap) winter and summer and been to most places in Ontario on road trips in those years. Same goes for sailboats. You need 40 feet all tricket out to get into sailing. /ch On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 3:25 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > The Yachtie consumerism message that > "You really should empty your pockets in MY direction, as anything less > would be irresponsible" Is the suckers game, which keeps many cruisers tied > to the dock, while being milked into old age by the marine industry.I am > proud to have been banned from many of their sites, for having tried to > inform people of alternatives to filling their pockets, for inferior gear > and boats. > The contempt of assholes is the sincerest form of flattery, as by their > contempt they are admitting you are not one of them. > If they liked me, that would be an extreme insult. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > I was leafing through a magazine in a bookstore today. The mag is called > 'Canadian Yachting West'. Similar to Pacific Yachting but even glossier. > > > > Really interesting article , several pages long , on why boatowners > should NOT do work or jobs on their own boat, not safe at all. I had to > scan through a bit to actually confirm the point. Of course this should not > surprise me , but it was so blatant. I laughed out loud. > > Then I noticed that many of the ads in the mag were for insurance > companies. > > > > Repeated recommendations in the article to 'always get a good marine > surveyor', which hearkens back to another recent thread on this forum. > Contradiction in terms. > > > > Haidan is lucky. Now he has constant access to one of those 'marine > technicians' and his days of DIY jobs are over. (joke) > > > > Speaking of insurance , I have actually been asked for 'proof of > insurance ' in two places over the past few years. The first was in > Ensenada, Mexico , and the second place was in Puerto Williams ,Chile. > > > > I do actually have liability insurance for the boat , as a rider on > house insurance for about $27 per year, and I was prescient enough to > photocopy the certificate, all in English,and that was satisfactory. Other > folks though who are not burdened with house ownership, were easily able to > design and print a very official looking 'insurance cerificate' that saved > face for all parties. They did this in a local internet cafe with a > printer, took about 30 minutes. The Mexican and Chilean functionaries seem > to realise that the required insurance is so abstract as to be ridiculous. > > > > I wonder if anyone has insurance that would compensate the Chilean > Armada for heading out overnight to pull your boat off the beach, as often > happens. I am sure that's what they want, along with insurance to cover the > cost of cleaning up after a wrecked and abandoned yacht. > > > > However, after talking with the skipper of the Armada Rescue Cutter in > the Cape Horn area, what he really wants is for yachties to help each other > as much as possible, but to call by radio when needed , and they will help > regardless. > > cheers > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28334|21163|2012-06-12 09:35:46|Maxime Camirand|Re: Japanese Debris and revisiting the Religious Mooring Bits|If you're worried about sinking with a dock, instead of going through the trouble of making a second set of sacrificial mooring bits, just use a "weak link" rope between your strong mooring bits and your usual mooring lines. Simple. On 8 June 2012 16:50, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > You describe extremely rare situations. The likelihood of them is > infinitely less than cleats failing when they need to survive. Bruce > Roberts said skegs should be designed to fall off if they hit anything, so > they wont take too much hull with them if they do. The results have been > skegs falling off in mid ocean. > Not much 'Wisdom" in making things deliberately flimsy. Use a smaller > line, if that is what you want. Lines are cheap to replace, and you know if > they are likely to break. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > Looking at this dock, and thinking about the most recent discussion on > religious mooring bits made me wonder.... > > > > What would happen if one tied their boat to such a floating dock (where > it was otherwise a good idea to do so) and it choose that time to sink and > take your boat down with it by its religious mooring bits ? Or when rafting > up to something big, that, well did something you did not want your boat > dragged into... Or, lets say there is a mistake and a line fouls into a big > prop and your boat gets winched in... Or something on a wharf that is > supposed to slide up as the tide comes in gets jammed and does not slide > up. I think I would like some normal mooring cleats on my boat that are > meant to fail at a load one would not normally see exceeded. Yes, a set of > religious mooring bits are handy, but, I would be careful how I use them. I > would find them indispensable on say, a drying wall, and would use them > regularly to do regular inspections and maintenance. > > > > BTW, I am guessing that "religious anchors" comes from the same source > as this: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L_kxxwql40 > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: bosdg@... > > > Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 08:13:39 -0700 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Japanese Debris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can now add concrete piers, to the list of Tsunami debris you > > > > could hit in the Northern Pacific. > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18349741 > > > > > > > > Darren > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28335|28315|2012-06-12 09:57:07|chris123|Re: Thoughts on Sailing Magazines and Insurance|On the flip side there seems to be a growing market for niche boats in steel. Interestingly enough they are not in Canada rather Britain Oz and NZ. http://www.voyagingyachts.com/wylo-355 They are currently testing there cuts and will supply the basic jig to ensure that all aligns as there are known issues with CAD designs transferred to a laser cutter: ie: curved shapes to flat surfaces. Hence they will supply the basic jib for the home builder as well. They are currently building two units to check their quality control and make sure it works for customers. Best regards /ch On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 9:29 AM, chris123 wrote: > The industry is dieing a slow death. There are over 2.5 million units for > sale in the States alone. The only way manufacturer can make any money is > to sell you a high end product as it has the highest margins. Motorcycles > went through this cycle. In the 70's X millions of units were sold from > 250cc to 1200 cc. and the prices started at under a 1000 new/. Today look > at what you can buy and look at the price of new product. Guess in what > period of time profit margins were higher...:) > > Im still waiting for a new Honda 360T to come out......could not kill that > sucker. Took me through 6 years of university (it was a good place to hang > out as tuition was cheap) winter and summer and been to most places in > Ontario on road trips in those years. > > Same goes for sailboats. You need 40 feet all tricket out to get into > sailing. > > /ch > > > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 3:25 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> The Yachtie consumerism message that >> "You really should empty your pockets in MY direction, as anything less >> would be irresponsible" Is the suckers game, which keeps many cruisers tied >> to the dock, while being milked into old age by the marine industry.I am >> proud to have been banned from many of their sites, for having tried to >> inform people of alternatives to filling their pockets, for inferior gear >> and boats. >> The contempt of assholes is the sincerest form of flattery, as by their >> contempt they are admitting you are not one of them. >> If they liked me, that would be an extreme insult. >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: >> > >> > I was leafing through a magazine in a bookstore today. The mag is >> called 'Canadian Yachting West'. Similar to Pacific Yachting but even >> glossier. >> > >> > Really interesting article , several pages long , on why boatowners >> should NOT do work or jobs on their own boat, not safe at all. I had to >> scan through a bit to actually confirm the point. Of course this should not >> surprise me , but it was so blatant. I laughed out loud. >> > Then I noticed that many of the ads in the mag were for insurance >> companies. >> > >> > Repeated recommendations in the article to 'always get a good marine >> surveyor', which hearkens back to another recent thread on this forum. >> Contradiction in terms. >> > >> > Haidan is lucky. Now he has constant access to one of those 'marine >> technicians' and his days of DIY jobs are over. (joke) >> > >> > Speaking of insurance , I have actually been asked for 'proof of >> insurance ' in two places over the past few years. The first was in >> Ensenada, Mexico , and the second place was in Puerto Williams ,Chile. >> > >> > I do actually have liability insurance for the boat , as a rider on >> house insurance for about $27 per year, and I was prescient enough to >> photocopy the certificate, all in English,and that was satisfactory. Other >> folks though who are not burdened with house ownership, were easily able to >> design and print a very official looking 'insurance cerificate' that saved >> face for all parties. They did this in a local internet cafe with a >> printer, took about 30 minutes. The Mexican and Chilean functionaries seem >> to realise that the required insurance is so abstract as to be ridiculous. >> > >> > I wonder if anyone has insurance that would compensate the Chilean >> Armada for heading out overnight to pull your boat off the beach, as often >> happens. I am sure that's what they want, along with insurance to cover the >> cost of cleaning up after a wrecked and abandoned yacht. >> > >> > However, after talking with the skipper of the Armada Rescue Cutter in >> the Cape Horn area, what he really wants is for yachties to help each other >> as much as possible, but to call by radio when needed , and they will help >> regardless. >> > cheers >> > >> >> >> > > > > -- > /ch > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28336|28336|2012-06-12 14:48:37|anzleytripp|selling|We have been working winters on our boat for several years and now realize we aren't in the best of health to finish. It's unfinished but has lots of nice features and appliances: gimballed stove, microwave, wood stove/smoker, wood box, freezer, fridge, yanmar motor, lg fresh water tank, lots of storage and closet space all custom built to make the best of space. If interested please contact us with any questions| 28337|28336|2012-06-12 14:50:59|anzleytripp|selling|We have been working winters on our boat for several years and now realize we aren't in the best of health to finish. It's unfinished but has lots of nice features and appliances: gimballed stove, microwave, wood stove/smoker, wood box, freezer, fridge, yanmar motor, lg fresh water tank, lots of storage and closet space all custom built to make the best of space. If interested please contact us with any questions| 28338|28324|2012-06-12 14:52:05|brentswain38|Re: jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel?|Great post.A sawzall may be the only way to get into tight corners, where a jigsaw wont.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I've cut lots of steel with a saber saw. A couple of things that help a > lot. Get a saw with blade oscillation. The blade goes forward on the up cut > stroke, and backwards on the down stroke so the teeth don't drag. This > greatly improves blade life. Use a blade that has at least two teeth in the > metal at a all times, but not much finer than that. If you use a fine blade > the saw can't cut with all the teeth so they just skid over the surface and > get hot. Use a variable speed saw, and a very slow blade speed. Use a > lubricant, the stick wax applied to the blade works well. Hold the saw down > to the surface very tightly, and keep good pressure against the cut. If the > blade pitch, speed and oscillation are all right it will cut like a nibbler, > quickly with big chips and very little heat. I have cut lots of steel and > stainless from 16 ga. to 3/4" thick using these tricks. > > I don't care for a sawsall for cutting sheet steel. They are great for > cutting off pipes and angle, but they don't do a great job on sheet metal. > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Malone > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 3:22 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel? > > > > My problem with either a jig saw or reciprocating saw is trying to cut metal > that is too thin. At least with a reciprocating saw, one might recline the > blade so that more teeth are bearing through the thickness of metal. This, > a grinder and a "metal" blade in a wood saw are all I have used to cut > metal. The "metal" blade on a saw is faster but there are sparks. I > would catch them on wet cloth. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kymd@... > Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:29:56 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all > > > > I am just preparing for some work on my 40' steelie. 30 y.o. with a bit of > rust here and there on deck or where deck meets sides. I want to cut some > of this out here and there. I am worried about using a grinder or plasma > cutter because they are likely to spray hot metal over nice interior wood. > > > > I saw a comment on another website about cutting steel using a jigsaw with a > steel blade. I got 4mm (5/32) hull and deck. I also wondered about those > reciprocating saws (say Milwaukee M18 Hackzall). Makita 4350FCT jigsaw > (720w) user manual says it can do 10mm (3/8) thick steel. > > > > Has anyone tried jigsaws or reciprocating saws to cut steel – will one or > the other do the job? Any idea how long blades last for 4mm steel? > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > | 28339|28315|2012-06-12 14:57:34|brentswain38|Re: Thoughts on Sailing Magazines and Insurance|Plastic boats are cheap, and the market is flooded. Finding a good deal on a good steel boat is not so easy. I have a couple of friends who bought plastic boats cheap, but find the only way they can get a good steel boat is to hire me to build them one. They have been looking for several years. For affordable, well built steel boats , looks like I'm the only show in town ,here in BC. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > The industry is dieing a slow death. There are over 2.5 million units for > sale in the States alone. The only way manufacturer can make any money is > to sell you a high end product as it has the highest margins. Motorcycles > went through this cycle. In the 70's X millions of units were sold from > 250cc to 1200 cc. and the prices started at under a 1000 new/. Today look > at what you can buy and look at the price of new product. Guess in what > period of time profit margins were higher...:) > > Im still waiting for a new Honda 360T to come out......could not kill that > sucker. Took me through 6 years of university (it was a good place to hang > out as tuition was cheap) winter and summer and been to most places in > Ontario on road trips in those years. > > Same goes for sailboats. You need 40 feet all tricket out to get into > sailing. > > /ch > > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 3:25 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > The Yachtie consumerism message that > > "You really should empty your pockets in MY direction, as anything less > > would be irresponsible" Is the suckers game, which keeps many cruisers tied > > to the dock, while being milked into old age by the marine industry.I am > > proud to have been banned from many of their sites, for having tried to > > inform people of alternatives to filling their pockets, for inferior gear > > and boats. > > The contempt of assholes is the sincerest form of flattery, as by their > > contempt they are admitting you are not one of them. > > If they liked me, that would be an extreme insult. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > > > I was leafing through a magazine in a bookstore today. The mag is called > > 'Canadian Yachting West'. Similar to Pacific Yachting but even glossier. > > > > > > Really interesting article , several pages long , on why boatowners > > should NOT do work or jobs on their own boat, not safe at all. I had to > > scan through a bit to actually confirm the point. Of course this should not > > surprise me , but it was so blatant. I laughed out loud. > > > Then I noticed that many of the ads in the mag were for insurance > > companies. > > > > > > Repeated recommendations in the article to 'always get a good marine > > surveyor', which hearkens back to another recent thread on this forum. > > Contradiction in terms. > > > > > > Haidan is lucky. Now he has constant access to one of those 'marine > > technicians' and his days of DIY jobs are over. (joke) > > > > > > Speaking of insurance , I have actually been asked for 'proof of > > insurance ' in two places over the past few years. The first was in > > Ensenada, Mexico , and the second place was in Puerto Williams ,Chile. > > > > > > I do actually have liability insurance for the boat , as a rider on > > house insurance for about $27 per year, and I was prescient enough to > > photocopy the certificate, all in English,and that was satisfactory. Other > > folks though who are not burdened with house ownership, were easily able to > > design and print a very official looking 'insurance cerificate' that saved > > face for all parties. They did this in a local internet cafe with a > > printer, took about 30 minutes. The Mexican and Chilean functionaries seem > > to realise that the required insurance is so abstract as to be ridiculous. > > > > > > I wonder if anyone has insurance that would compensate the Chilean > > Armada for heading out overnight to pull your boat off the beach, as often > > happens. I am sure that's what they want, along with insurance to cover the > > cost of cleaning up after a wrecked and abandoned yacht. > > > > > > However, after talking with the skipper of the Armada Rescue Cutter in > > the Cape Horn area, what he really wants is for yachties to help each other > > as much as possible, but to call by radio when needed , and they will help > > regardless. > > > cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28340|21163|2012-06-12 14:59:59|brentswain38|Re: Japanese Debris and revisiting the Religious Mooring Bits|Some have an incredible knack for making simple problems more complicated.It does keep the anchorages emptier. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > If you're worried about sinking with a dock, instead of going through the > trouble of making a second set of sacrificial mooring bits, just use a > "weak link" rope between your strong mooring bits and your usual mooring > lines. Simple. > > On 8 June 2012 16:50, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > You describe extremely rare situations. The likelihood of them is > > infinitely less than cleats failing when they need to survive. Bruce > > Roberts said skegs should be designed to fall off if they hit anything, so > > they wont take too much hull with them if they do. The results have been > > skegs falling off in mid ocean. > > Not much 'Wisdom" in making things deliberately flimsy. Use a smaller > > line, if that is what you want. Lines are cheap to replace, and you know if > > they are likely to break. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at this dock, and thinking about the most recent discussion on > > religious mooring bits made me wonder.... > > > > > > What would happen if one tied their boat to such a floating dock (where > > it was otherwise a good idea to do so) and it choose that time to sink and > > take your boat down with it by its religious mooring bits ? Or when rafting > > up to something big, that, well did something you did not want your boat > > dragged into... Or, lets say there is a mistake and a line fouls into a big > > prop and your boat gets winched in... Or something on a wharf that is > > supposed to slide up as the tide comes in gets jammed and does not slide > > up. I think I would like some normal mooring cleats on my boat that are > > meant to fail at a load one would not normally see exceeded. Yes, a set of > > religious mooring bits are handy, but, I would be careful how I use them. I > > would find them indispensable on say, a drying wall, and would use them > > regularly to do regular inspections and maintenance. > > > > > > BTW, I am guessing that "religious anchors" comes from the same source > > as this: > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L_kxxwql40 > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: bosdg@ > > > > > Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 08:13:39 -0700 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Japanese Debris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can now add concrete piers, to the list of Tsunami debris you > > > > > > could hit in the Northern Pacific. > > > > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18349741 > > > > > > > > > > > > Darren > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28341|28315|2012-06-12 15:06:24|brentswain38|Re: Thoughts on Sailing Magazines and Insurance|The Fukashima debris field should drastically increase interest in steel boats, among wiser cruisers. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > On the flip side there seems to be a growing market for niche boats in > steel. Interestingly enough they are not in Canada rather Britain Oz and > NZ. > > http://www.voyagingyachts.com/wylo-355 > > They are currently testing there cuts and will supply the basic jig to > ensure that all aligns as there are known issues with CAD designs > transferred to a laser cutter: ie: curved shapes to flat surfaces. Hence > they will supply the basic jib for the home builder as well. > > They are currently building two units to check their quality control and > make sure it works for customers. > > Best regards > > /ch > > > On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 9:29 AM, chris123 wrote: > > > The industry is dieing a slow death. There are over 2.5 million units for > > sale in the States alone. The only way manufacturer can make any money is > > to sell you a high end product as it has the highest margins. Motorcycles > > went through this cycle. In the 70's X millions of units were sold from > > 250cc to 1200 cc. and the prices started at under a 1000 new/. Today look > > at what you can buy and look at the price of new product. Guess in what > > period of time profit margins were higher...:) > > > > Im still waiting for a new Honda 360T to come out......could not kill that > > sucker. Took me through 6 years of university (it was a good place to hang > > out as tuition was cheap) winter and summer and been to most places in > > Ontario on road trips in those years. > > > > Same goes for sailboats. You need 40 feet all tricket out to get into > > sailing. > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 3:25 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > >> ** > >> > >> > >> The Yachtie consumerism message that > >> "You really should empty your pockets in MY direction, as anything less > >> would be irresponsible" Is the suckers game, which keeps many cruisers tied > >> to the dock, while being milked into old age by the marine industry.I am > >> proud to have been banned from many of their sites, for having tried to > >> inform people of alternatives to filling their pockets, for inferior gear > >> and boats. > >> The contempt of assholes is the sincerest form of flattery, as by their > >> contempt they are admitting you are not one of them. > >> If they liked me, that would be an extreme insult. > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > >> > > >> > I was leafing through a magazine in a bookstore today. The mag is > >> called 'Canadian Yachting West'. Similar to Pacific Yachting but even > >> glossier. > >> > > >> > Really interesting article , several pages long , on why boatowners > >> should NOT do work or jobs on their own boat, not safe at all. I had to > >> scan through a bit to actually confirm the point. Of course this should not > >> surprise me , but it was so blatant. I laughed out loud. > >> > Then I noticed that many of the ads in the mag were for insurance > >> companies. > >> > > >> > Repeated recommendations in the article to 'always get a good marine > >> surveyor', which hearkens back to another recent thread on this forum. > >> Contradiction in terms. > >> > > >> > Haidan is lucky. Now he has constant access to one of those 'marine > >> technicians' and his days of DIY jobs are over. (joke) > >> > > >> > Speaking of insurance , I have actually been asked for 'proof of > >> insurance ' in two places over the past few years. The first was in > >> Ensenada, Mexico , and the second place was in Puerto Williams ,Chile. > >> > > >> > I do actually have liability insurance for the boat , as a rider on > >> house insurance for about $27 per year, and I was prescient enough to > >> photocopy the certificate, all in English,and that was satisfactory. Other > >> folks though who are not burdened with house ownership, were easily able to > >> design and print a very official looking 'insurance cerificate' that saved > >> face for all parties. They did this in a local internet cafe with a > >> printer, took about 30 minutes. The Mexican and Chilean functionaries seem > >> to realise that the required insurance is so abstract as to be ridiculous. > >> > > >> > I wonder if anyone has insurance that would compensate the Chilean > >> Armada for heading out overnight to pull your boat off the beach, as often > >> happens. I am sure that's what they want, along with insurance to cover the > >> cost of cleaning up after a wrecked and abandoned yacht. > >> > > >> > However, after talking with the skipper of the Armada Rescue Cutter in > >> the Cape Horn area, what he really wants is for yachties to help each other > >> as much as possible, but to call by radio when needed , and they will help > >> regardless. > >> > cheers > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28342|21163|2012-06-12 15:57:00|Matt Malone|Re: Japanese Debris and revisiting the Religious Mooring Bits|I have used sacrificial line to avoid the problem of irresistable forces and immovable objects.... but I was fully prepared for the results, I thought. Anyone who has ever actually taken a line to failure knows the results are quite unpredictable. Any line with a little stretch, like nylon can build up a tremendous amount of elastic energy in it. If you have 20 feet, and it breaks near your religious mooring bit, then you have 20 feet of line moving away from your boat at high speed. Probably not so bad. Say on the other hand it breaks closer to the other end. Then you have 20 feet of line coming at you at high speed. Off-roaders who winch themselves using trees sometimes lay a blanket or towel over the steel cable, so that in case it breaks, it will loose energy pulling the blanket through the air and will not snap back and not lay a good cut into them, suddenly and without warning. And windows. Many off-road vehicles have lost a window from a snapping line. Yeah, real inconvenient in the bush, then the mosquitos can get in. How about on the water ? I say more inconvenient. So say the snap-back did not do any major damage... What about that broken 20 feet of line, still tied to your religious mooring bit, getting sucked back into the other massive prop again, SNAP right back at you again. What is so effing hard or complicated about drilling a couple little holes, installing no massive backing plate, and just use a Canadian Tire docking cleat ? It is two holes and 2 bolts, and probably under $10 installed. If it meets the irresistable force, goodbye, something else now has your docking cleat attached to it and you have resisted the irresistible force. Maybe the two little holes in your boat are a bit bigger. Put two bigger bolts in them to keep the water from dripping in. Done. If the line gets snarled in something nasty, I can confidently walk to my cheap cleat and cut the line, knowing, there is no way it is going to break and snap back at me. I know that my usual and customary docking line that I sometimes use on the religious cleat is stronger than the cheap cleat. With a weak line on a strong point, there is no telling what will happen and it is dangerous to approach the point where it attaches... So, you going to watch and wait for the line to maybe break as it is being reeled into a big prop ? Dock cleats are so cheap I screwed two of them to the public launch, just so I could use them twice a year to launch and haul my boat. It took ten minutes, once. I have already wasted more time on explaining the logic of not routinely using religious mooring cleats for jobs that are not imagined to need their strength. Short answer: make sure it breaks on your end. You have control of that. Its as simple as using a small, cheap bolt, like the the shear pins in most farm equipment, all it is is a cheap, easily replaced, grade 2 bolt of suitable size. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:59:48 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Japanese Debris and revisiting the Religious Mooring Bits Some have an incredible knack for making simple problems more complicated.It does keep the anchorages emptier. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > If you're worried about sinking with a dock, instead of going through the > trouble of making a second set of sacrificial mooring bits, just use a > "weak link" rope between your strong mooring bits and your usual mooring > lines. Simple. > > On 8 June 2012 16:50, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > You describe extremely rare situations. The likelihood of them is > > infinitely less than cleats failing when they need to survive. Bruce > > Roberts said skegs should be designed to fall off if they hit anything, so > > they wont take too much hull with them if they do. The results have been > > skegs falling off in mid ocean. > > Not much 'Wisdom" in making things deliberately flimsy. Use a smaller > > line, if that is what you want. Lines are cheap to replace, and you know if > > they are likely to break. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at this dock, and thinking about the most recent discussion on > > religious mooring bits made me wonder.... > > > > > > What would happen if one tied their boat to such a floating dock (where > > it was otherwise a good idea to do so) and it choose that time to sink and > > take your boat down with it by its religious mooring bits ? Or when rafting > > up to something big, that, well did something you did not want your boat > > dragged into... Or, lets say there is a mistake and a line fouls into a big > > prop and your boat gets winched in... Or something on a wharf that is > > supposed to slide up as the tide comes in gets jammed and does not slide > > up. I think I would like some normal mooring cleats on my boat that are > > meant to fail at a load one would not normally see exceeded. Yes, a set of > > religious mooring bits are handy, but, I would be careful how I use them. I > > would find them indispensable on say, a drying wall, and would use them > > regularly to do regular inspections and maintenance. > > > > > > BTW, I am guessing that "religious anchors" comes from the same source > > as this: > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L_kxxwql40 > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: bosdg@ > > > > > Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 08:13:39 -0700 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Japanese Debris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28343|28343|2012-06-12 19:17:38|wild_explorer|Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|I need a reminder.. To simulate correct stiffness and floppiness of 3/16" steel you need....??? As I remember, it was shim stock material. Stiffness and strongness of the material is square relation to it thickness. So... for 1:10 model should be it 1:100 of original thickness? For 3/16" (0.1875) steel will be it ~0.02" (0.1875/100=0.02)? Is it correct?| 28344|28343|2012-06-12 19:22:05|wild_explorer|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|I meant ~0.002" for 3/16" material. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > For 3/16" (0.1875) steel will be it ~0.02" (0.1875/100=0.02)? Is it correct? > | 28345|28336|2012-06-12 20:01:56|john dean|Re: selling|Have you posted photos of your boat? --- On Tue, 6/12/12, anzleytripp wrote: From: anzleytripp Subject: [origamiboats] selling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 2:31 PM We have been working winters on our boat for several years and now realize we aren't in the best of health to finish. It's unfinished but has lots of nice features and appliances: gimballed stove, microwave, wood stove/smoker, wood box, freezer, fridge, yanmar motor, lg fresh water tank, lots of storage and closet space all custom built to make the best of space. If interested please contact us with any questions ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28346|28315|2012-06-12 23:28:43|chris123|Re: Thoughts on Sailing Magazines and Insurance|You should put up a website and advertise Brent....wasnt there a couple of builders in your area? Remember seeing something on line....thats where most people look now a days. Contact me off list if interested... On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 2:57 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > Plastic boats are cheap, and the market is flooded. Finding a good deal on > a good steel boat is not so easy. I have a couple of friends who bought > plastic boats cheap, but find the only way they can get a good steel boat > is to hire me to build them one. They have been looking for several years. > For affordable, well built steel boats , looks like I'm the only show in > town ,here in BC. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > wrote: > > > > The industry is dieing a slow death. There are over 2.5 million units for > > sale in the States alone. The only way manufacturer can make any money is > > to sell you a high end product as it has the highest margins. Motorcycles > > went through this cycle. In the 70's X millions of units were sold from > > 250cc to 1200 cc. and the prices started at under a 1000 new/. Today look > > at what you can buy and look at the price of new product. Guess in what > > period of time profit margins were higher...:) > > > > Im still waiting for a new Honda 360T to come out......could not kill > that > > sucker. Took me through 6 years of university (it was a good place to > hang > > out as tuition was cheap) winter and summer and been to most places in > > Ontario on road trips in those years. > > > > Same goes for sailboats. You need 40 feet all tricket out to get into > > sailing. > > > > /ch > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 3:25 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > The Yachtie consumerism message that > > > "You really should empty your pockets in MY direction, as anything less > > > would be irresponsible" Is the suckers game, which keeps many cruisers > tied > > > to the dock, while being milked into old age by the marine industry.I > am > > > proud to have been banned from many of their sites, for having tried to > > > inform people of alternatives to filling their pockets, for inferior > gear > > > and boats. > > > The contempt of assholes is the sincerest form of flattery, as by their > > > contempt they are admitting you are not one of them. > > > If they liked me, that would be an extreme insult. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > > > > > I was leafing through a magazine in a bookstore today. The mag is > called > > > 'Canadian Yachting West'. Similar to Pacific Yachting but even > glossier. > > > > > > > > Really interesting article , several pages long , on why boatowners > > > should NOT do work or jobs on their own boat, not safe at all. I had to > > > scan through a bit to actually confirm the point. Of course this > should not > > > surprise me , but it was so blatant. I laughed out loud. > > > > Then I noticed that many of the ads in the mag were for insurance > > > companies. > > > > > > > > Repeated recommendations in the article to 'always get a good marine > > > surveyor', which hearkens back to another recent thread on this forum. > > > Contradiction in terms. > > > > > > > > Haidan is lucky. Now he has constant access to one of those 'marine > > > technicians' and his days of DIY jobs are over. (joke) > > > > > > > > Speaking of insurance , I have actually been asked for 'proof of > > > insurance ' in two places over the past few years. The first was in > > > Ensenada, Mexico , and the second place was in Puerto Williams ,Chile. > > > > > > > > I do actually have liability insurance for the boat , as a rider on > > > house insurance for about $27 per year, and I was prescient enough to > > > photocopy the certificate, all in English,and that was satisfactory. > Other > > > folks though who are not burdened with house ownership, were easily > able to > > > design and print a very official looking 'insurance cerificate' that > saved > > > face for all parties. They did this in a local internet cafe with a > > > printer, took about 30 minutes. The Mexican and Chilean functionaries > seem > > > to realise that the required insurance is so abstract as to be > ridiculous. > > > > > > > > I wonder if anyone has insurance that would compensate the Chilean > > > Armada for heading out overnight to pull your boat off the beach, as > often > > > happens. I am sure that's what they want, along with insurance to > cover the > > > cost of cleaning up after a wrecked and abandoned yacht. > > > > > > > > However, after talking with the skipper of the Armada Rescue Cutter > in > > > the Cape Horn area, what he really wants is for yachties to help each > other > > > as much as possible, but to call by radio when needed , and they will > help > > > regardless. > > > > cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28347|21163|2012-06-13 06:10:11|Maxime Camirand|Re: Japanese Debris and revisiting the Religious Mooring Bits|Hi Matt, What you say makes sense. I do have experience with lines breaking etc. I'm currently second captain on a 474 gross ton tugboat. I just don't agree with your approach. If I understand correctly, you're proposing using these sacrificial mooring bits in situations where you're getting towed. I wouldn't appreciate someone engineering a solution that involves a cheap docking cleat shearing off his deck and getting slingshotted at my deckhands. Another captain pulled a mooring bit off a barge when there was significant resistance from ice on the water. This ~30 kilo piece of metal flew hundreds of feet into the water. No one got hurt that time. If you don't use line that's strong enough to pull your boat under water, which takes quite a bit of force, if the rope is run through a fitting near the centerline, and it gets caught in a big propeller, just put your head down until it snaps. I've also seen smaller lines get caught in a tug's props, and it doesn't last very long. Anyway, every man does what he wants, but I wouldn't do it your way, just because of the more-dangerous (to other people) failure modes and the additional deck clutter. If you used a weak-line rope, you wouldn't have to carry an set of ropes. I'm talking about a length of a few feet, with an eye spliced on each end. Just a rope tail, really. Then you know it'll fail there, near your mooring bit, instead of somewhere along your stronger mooring line. Regards, Max On 12 June 2012 15:55, Matt Malone wrote: > ** > > > > > I have used sacrificial line to avoid the problem of irresistable forces > and immovable objects.... but I was fully prepared for the results, I > thought. Anyone who has ever actually taken a line to failure knows the > results are quite unpredictable. Any line with a little stretch, like nylon > can build up a tremendous amount of elastic energy in it. If you have 20 > feet, and it breaks near your religious mooring bit, then you have 20 feet > of line moving away from your boat at high speed. Probably not so bad. Say > on the other hand it breaks closer to the other end. Then you have 20 feet > of line coming at you at high speed. Off-roaders who winch themselves using > trees sometimes lay a blanket or towel over the steel cable, so that in > case it breaks, it will loose energy pulling the blanket through the air > and will not snap back and not lay a good cut into them, suddenly and > without warning. And windows. Many off-road vehicles have lost a window > from a snapping line. Yeah, real inconvenient in the bush, then the > mosquitos can get in. How about on the water ? I say more inconvenient. So > say the snap-back did not do any major damage... What about that broken 20 > feet of line, still tied to your religious mooring bit, getting sucked back > into the other massive prop again, SNAP right back at you again. > > What is so effing hard or complicated about drilling a couple little > holes, installing no massive backing plate, and just use a Canadian Tire > docking cleat ? It is two holes and 2 bolts, and probably under $10 > installed. If it meets the irresistable force, goodbye, something else now > has your docking cleat attached to it and you have resisted the > irresistible force. Maybe the two little holes in your boat are a bit > bigger. Put two bigger bolts in them to keep the water from dripping in. > Done. > > If the line gets snarled in something nasty, I can confidently walk to my > cheap cleat and cut the line, knowing, there is no way it is going to break > and snap back at me. I know that my usual and customary docking line that I > sometimes use on the religious cleat is stronger than the cheap cleat. With > a weak line on a strong point, there is no telling what will happen and it > is dangerous to approach the point where it attaches... So, you going to > watch and wait for the line to maybe break as it is being reeled into a big > prop ? > > Dock cleats are so cheap I screwed two of them to the public launch, > just so I could use them twice a year to launch and haul my boat. It > took ten minutes, once. I have already wasted more time on explaining the > logic of not > routinely using religious mooring cleats for jobs that are not imagined to > need their strength. > > Short answer: make sure it breaks on your end. You have control of that. > Its as simple as using a small, cheap bolt, like the the shear pins in > most farm equipment, all it is is a cheap, easily replaced, grade 2 bolt > of suitable size. > > Matt > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28348|28343|2012-06-13 07:21:24|Matt Malone|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|If stiffness does go by the square, and you want a model 1/10 the size then, 1/sqrt(10) is the thickness = 1/3.16, because the square of this will be 1/10. The problem is, there are two types of stiffness. There is local stiffness v.s. denting, like poke it with a finger, hit it with a rubber hammer, then there is membrane stiffness, eggshell overall stiffness, and I think that that will be off. I do not think you will be able to replicate both the banana stiffness of the overall hull and local stiffness v.s. denting. Shimstock will be a lot easier to work with than 1/16". Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 23:17:35 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model I need a reminder.. To simulate correct stiffness and floppiness of 3/16" steel you need....??? As I remember, it was shim stock material. Stiffness and strongness of the material is square relation to it thickness. So... for 1:10 model should be it 1:100 of original thickness? For 3/16" (0.1875) steel will be it ~0.02" (0.1875/100=0.02)? Is it correct? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28349|28343|2012-06-13 11:28:58|wild_explorer|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|Matt, I worry only about stiffness (foldability, floppiness) at this time. It looks like I did wrong calculation. Let see if I understood it correctly this time. Original shell's metal is 3/16"=0.1875". It is need to find thickness of the metal for 1:10 model. 1. Find conversion coefficient (for scale factor 10) => 1/Sqrt(10) = 1/3.16 = 0.316 2. Find model's metal thickness (for scale factor 10) => 0.1875" * 0.316 = 0.06" (16 ga) So, to simulate stiffness of original metal (3/16") for 1:10 model I need 0.06" (16 ga) sheet metal? Is it correct? P.S. I planned to use 26 ga (0.018 => ~0.02") and was wondering if it was too thick for 1:10 model. Looks like 26ga is lighter then needed for 1:10 model. Cutting would not be a problem - it would be laser cut. I just need to determine acceptable compromise for metal thickness of 1:10 model and see if 26ga is acceptable. 16ga looks too thick for comfortable workability on small model (about 4ft long). P.S.S. Based on above information, 0.02" metal would be correct metal thickness for 1:100 model? 0.1875 *(1/sqrt(100))= 0.1875* (1/10)=0.1875*0.1=0.01875~=0.02". Right? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > If stiffness does go by the square, and you want a model 1/10 the size then, 1/sqrt(10) is the thickness = 1/3.16, because the square of this will be 1/10. > > The problem is, there are two types of stiffness. There is local stiffness v.s. denting, like poke it with a finger, hit it with a rubber hammer, then there is membrane stiffness, eggshell overall stiffness, and I think that that will be off. I do not think you will be able to replicate both the banana stiffness of the overall hull and local stiffness v.s. denting. > > Shimstock will be a lot easier to work with than 1/16". > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 23:17:35 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I need a reminder.. To simulate correct stiffness and floppiness of 3/16" steel you need....??? > > > > As I remember, it was shim stock material. Stiffness and strongness of the material is square relation to it thickness. So... for 1:10 model should be it 1:100 of original thickness? > > > > For 3/16" (0.1875) steel will be it ~0.02" (0.1875/100=0.02)? Is it correct? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28350|28343|2012-06-13 13:46:30|Matt Malone|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|Wild, I have not looked into how to proportion sizes to maintain stiffness in shells. You said "goes by the square" so I helped with the math. I expressed skepticism that one could scale a shell and scale all of the aspects of stiffness. I have been recently over-thinking my mast dilemma, thinking, to get a desire-able over all stiffness/strength and a local stiffness versus being hit by a swinging spar, one would have to consider different materials. For example, a solid spruce wood mast would have a certain mast stiffness/strength, and a very high impact stiffness / strength. An hollow aluminium mast might have a lower weight, and the same over all stiffness and strength, but would have a far lower local dent resistance vs. something like a swinging spar. A steel mast pipe would have to be much thinner to have the same weight as the aluminium, and might have a similar over all stiffness and strength, but, its dent-buckle resistance would be lower, because it is so much thinner wall. So, I don't know the answer in scaling a shell, so far, I know it is complicated. I think 16 or 18 gauge metal would be easy to work with in 2-3 foot long pieces. One might even tack-weld it together instead of soldering or something for thinner shim stock. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:28:56 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model Matt, I worry only about stiffness (foldability, floppiness) at this time. It looks like I did wrong calculation. Let see if I understood it correctly this time. Original shell's metal is 3/16"=0.1875". It is need to find thickness of the metal for 1:10 model. 1. Find conversion coefficient (for scale factor 10) => 1/Sqrt(10) = 1/3.16 = 0.316 2. Find model's metal thickness (for scale factor 10) => 0.1875" * 0.316 = 0.06" (16 ga) So, to simulate stiffness of original metal (3/16") for 1:10 model I need 0.06" (16 ga) sheet metal? Is it correct? P.S. I planned to use 26 ga (0.018 => ~0.02") and was wondering if it was too thick for 1:10 model. Looks like 26ga is lighter then needed for 1:10 model. Cutting would not be a problem - it would be laser cut. I just need to determine acceptable compromise for metal thickness of 1:10 model and see if 26ga is acceptable. 16ga looks too thick for comfortable workability on small model (about 4ft long). P.S.S. Based on above information, 0.02" metal would be correct metal thickness for 1:100 model? 0.1875 *(1/sqrt(100))= 0.1875* (1/10)=0.1875*0.1=0.01875~=0.02". Right? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > If stiffness does go by the square, and you want a model 1/10 the size then, 1/sqrt(10) is the thickness = 1/3.16, because the square of this will be 1/10. > > The problem is, there are two types of stiffness. There is local stiffness v.s. denting, like poke it with a finger, hit it with a rubber hammer, then there is membrane stiffness, eggshell overall stiffness, and I think that that will be off. I do not think you will be able to replicate both the banana stiffness of the overall hull and local stiffness v.s. denting. > > Shimstock will be a lot easier to work with than 1/16". > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 23:17:35 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I need a reminder.. To simulate correct stiffness and floppiness of 3/16" steel you need....??? > > > > As I remember, it was shim stock material. Stiffness and strongness of the material is square relation to it thickness. So... for 1:10 model should be it 1:100 of original thickness? > > > > For 3/16" (0.1875) steel will be it ~0.02" (0.1875/100=0.02)? Is it correct? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28351|28343|2012-06-13 14:11:17|wild_explorer|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|Matt, I really appreciate your help. I agree, stiffness of the shell is very complicated subject. I just need some idea what would be correct thickness of FLAT metal sheet for 1:10 model to simulate stiffness of FLAT 40ft 3/16" plate (hopefully foldability as well). All other aspects (puncture resistance, etc) are not so important at this time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Wild, I have not looked into how to proportion sizes to maintain stiffness in shells. You said "goes by the square" so I helped with the math. I expressed skepticism that one could scale a shell and scale all of the aspects of stiffness. > > I have been recently over-thinking my mast dilemma, thinking, to get a desire-able over all stiffness/strength and a local stiffness versus being hit by a swinging spar, one would have to consider different materials. For example, a solid spruce wood mast would have a certain mast stiffness/strength, and a very high impact stiffness / strength. An hollow aluminium mast might have a lower weight, and the same over all stiffness and strength, but would have a far lower local dent resistance vs. something like a swinging spar. A steel mast pipe would have to be much thinner to have the same weight as the aluminium, and might have a similar over all stiffness and strength, but, its dent-buckle resistance would be lower, because it is so much thinner wall. > > So, I don't know the answer in scaling a shell, so far, I know it is complicated. I think 16 or 18 gauge metal would be easy to work with in 2-3 foot long pieces. One might even tack-weld it together instead of soldering or something for thinner shim stock. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:28:56 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, I worry only about stiffness (foldability, floppiness) at this time. It looks like I did wrong calculation. Let see if I understood it correctly this time. > > > > Original shell's metal is 3/16"=0.1875". It is need to find thickness of the metal for 1:10 model. > > > > 1. Find conversion coefficient (for scale factor 10) => 1/Sqrt(10) = 1/3.16 = 0.316 > > > > 2. Find model's metal thickness (for scale factor 10) => 0.1875" * 0.316 = 0.06" (16 ga) > > > > So, to simulate stiffness of original metal (3/16") for 1:10 model I need 0.06" (16 ga) sheet metal? Is it correct? > > > > P.S. I planned to use 26 ga (0.018 => ~0.02") and was wondering if it was too thick for 1:10 model. Looks like 26ga is lighter then needed for 1:10 model. Cutting would not be a problem - it would be laser cut. I just need to determine acceptable compromise for metal thickness of 1:10 model and see if 26ga is acceptable. 16ga looks too thick for comfortable workability on small model (about 4ft long). > > > > P.S.S. Based on above information, 0.02" metal would be correct metal thickness for 1:100 model? > > 0.1875 *(1/sqrt(100))= 0.1875* (1/10)=0.1875*0.1=0.01875~=0.02". Right? > > | 28352|28343|2012-06-13 15:11:55|Matt Malone|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|Flat metal has virtually no stiffness, and that very small stiffness in engineering units of pounds per inch of deflection, I believe would go by the cube of the thickness divided by the square of the length, as for a beam. Practically, all metal is curved at little. You pick up one end of a sheet of steel and if it has alittle wrinkle or curvature counter to the natural flex, it will at first be stiff, and "break" "pop" or "snap" like a tape measure and fall limply into a new curve. So how do you want to scale this: - 1/10 on physical dimensions - 1/10 on deflections so that the shape is the same - on forces... it is not clear how to scale. What is the correct scaled force ? One has to have a load case in mind, like the loads that might be placed on a mooring bit at a particular location on the boat. How much would the boat flex, and you want the model boat to take on the same shape as the real boat. If you set a 10 ton jerk force on the mooring bit on a full sized boat, would it be reasonable to apply a 1 ton jerk limit on a 1/10th scale model ? No. The jerk force would be proportional to momentum, and that is proportional to mass, which goes by the cube of dimensions... so 1/1000 the jerk load would be produced on a 1/10th scale model going the same speed. If one scaled the speed too, then 1/10,000 of the inertial jerk load would be placed on the mooring bits of a 1/10th scale model going 1/10 the speed when it hit the end of its chain. Pressure-loads go by areas so 1/100 th the force at the same liquid pressure. Lets go with this, just so we can get an answer here. Lets do this for a really simple geometry, for a ribbon of steel (beam) held at one end and a load F is placed at the free end: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflection_%28engineering%29 deflection = F L^3 / 3 E I I = width * thickness ^2 / 12 , Width is 1/10, thickness is unknown L is 1/10 So doing the simple ribbon-beam equation, substituting in the scalings for the variables: 1/10 = 1/100 * (1/10)^2 / ( 1/10 * ? ) ? = 1/100 = (thickness) ^ 3 scale thickness = scale ^ (2/3) * original thickness 0.1875 " * (1/10)^ 2/3 = 0.04 " As complicated as this scaling is for a simple beam, given the nature of orgami is to add curves and I gather, pull the metal together at the stitch, I am not sure even a flat metal stiffness equation is really that useful either. I think you should trust that Brent and others have pulled boats together, it can be done with the recommended thicknesses and the tools shown in the many photos. Further, I have seen a video of an orgami pulled through a field by a tow truck. While not a scientific measure of stiffness, toughness or dent resistance, it impressed me. Then there are Brent's anecdotes of hitting log booms and reefs and such. So, the workability in construction, and in-service questions seem to be answered. I think if you want to pull together a scale model for practice, to see the shapes come together, just choose the thickness of metal that is easy to work with and ignore trying to scale the thickness. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:11:16 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model Matt, I really appreciate your help. I agree, stiffness of the shell is very complicated subject. I just need some idea what would be correct thickness of FLAT metal sheet for 1:10 model to simulate stiffness of FLAT 40ft 3/16" plate (hopefully foldability as well). All other aspects (puncture resistance, etc) are not so important at this time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Wild, I have not looked into how to proportion sizes to maintain stiffness in shells. You said "goes by the square" so I helped with the math. I expressed skepticism that one could scale a shell and scale all of the aspects of stiffness. > > I have been recently over-thinking my mast dilemma, thinking, to get a desire-able over all stiffness/strength and a local stiffness versus being hit by a swinging spar, one would have to consider different materials. For example, a solid spruce wood mast would have a certain mast stiffness/strength, and a very high impact stiffness / strength. An hollow aluminium mast might have a lower weight, and the same over all stiffness and strength, but would have a far lower local dent resistance vs. something like a swinging spar. A steel mast pipe would have to be much thinner to have the same weight as the aluminium, and might have a similar over all stiffness and strength, but, its dent-buckle resistance would be lower, because it is so much thinner wall. > > So, I don't know the answer in scaling a shell, so far, I know it is complicated. I think 16 or 18 gauge metal would be easy to work with in 2-3 foot long pieces. One might even tack-weld it together instead of soldering or something for thinner shim stock. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:28:56 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, I worry only about stiffness (foldability, floppiness) at this time. It looks like I did wrong calculation. Let see if I understood it correctly this time. > > > > Original shell's metal is 3/16"=0.1875". It is need to find thickness of the metal for 1:10 model. > > > > 1. Find conversion coefficient (for scale factor 10) => 1/Sqrt(10) = 1/3.16 = 0.316 > > > > 2. Find model's metal thickness (for scale factor 10) => 0.1875" * 0.316 = 0.06" (16 ga) > > > > So, to simulate stiffness of original metal (3/16") for 1:10 model I need 0.06" (16 ga) sheet metal? Is it correct? > > > > P.S. I planned to use 26 ga (0.018 => ~0.02") and was wondering if it was too thick for 1:10 model. Looks like 26ga is lighter then needed for 1:10 model. Cutting would not be a problem - it would be laser cut. I just need to determine acceptable compromise for metal thickness of 1:10 model and see if 26ga is acceptable. 16ga looks too thick for comfortable workability on small model (about 4ft long). > > > > P.S.S. Based on above information, 0.02" metal would be correct metal thickness for 1:100 model? > > 0.1875 *(1/sqrt(100))= 0.1875* (1/10)=0.1875*0.1=0.01875~=0.02". Right? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28353|28353|2012-06-13 15:17:30|Scott Carle|Yahoo Account Infected Warning From Scott Carle|> > For those of you that do not know me I am Scott Carle and I am sending this > email to everyone in my yahoo contact list as well as my wife Zsanics and my > mother Annettes contact lists. Thouse of you that know me, know that I have a > computer services company and that I used to work as a Network Security Analyst > some years ago. I simply say this for those that don't know me so that you > will understand that I have some specific knowledge and contacts into the > computer security world. > > > In the last couple weeks we have found that our (My monthers,My wifes and My)  > yahoo accounts have been compromised and have been sending out spam emails to > some of our contacts. We seemed to become inffected in a cascading series, > though we can't prove that that is acctually what happened.  As you know I > used to work in the computer security industry and we (I)  take a lot of > precautions to keep something like this from happening. I wanted to let everyone > know that this should be fixed now but if you recieve anything from our yahoo > address that looks suspisous please let us know about it.  > > I know several people that have had similar things happen to them and had  just > thought that their home computers were compromised and that the spammers got in > to their online accounts that way. However in dealing directly with this issue > myself I have detirmined that something else is at work. We are pretty shure > that is not what happened with us and probably is not what happened to the other > people who have had their accounts compromised either. > > Let me share some suspicions as to how this is happening.  After much > troubleshooting and consulting with some of my friends that are still currently > working in high end national corporate level computer security the conclusions > are that no one quite knows how the spammers are doing this.   It is affecting > people using windows, Linux, and Macs. It is affecting people using Internet > explorere and firefox. We have ruled out in many cases that the persons PC was > infected, We also don't think that in a lot of cases that the individuals > password was directly compromised. Though many people do chose simple and short > passwords that are easy to brute force crack there are a lot of us that use very > good industry standard passwords and it is happening to us to. Though both of > these are methods that allow spammers to take over your yahoo account in some > instances we belive that there is a security flaw in one of yahoos connections > protocols such as mobile yahoo, > or one of the external app links such as to facebook that is allowing spammers > to access peoples yahoo accounts and send spam through them. > > What you can do. > > You need to pre-emptively check your yahoo account and check/change some > settings I will list below. If you can still access your accout ( the spammers > haven't changed your password) then you need to do that now. First however > you need to go to account information. (you can do this by clicking on your name > in the top left hand corner of your browser just over where it says yahoo mail. > It will look like "Hi, and then your name" one of the options is > Account Info. click on this.)  > > Once in Account information you will see the second section of that page is > called contact information, you need to look at the emails showing there and > delete any you do not recognize. If there is a email address that isn't > yours then it is probably a spammers email address. If you change your password > with that email address there it will notify the spammer you have changed your > password and they will be able to get back into your account. > > Next you will see a section torward the bottom that says "sign in and > security" you need to click on "update password reset info" make > sure that it is your email addresses and or telephone addresses that are used to > reset your password. If there is an address or phone number in there that you > don't recognize then it is probbably the spammers. Delete it and put your > info in there. next change your secret questions and answers to make sure the > spammers don't have access that info now also.  > > Next you need to go to both the "Manage Other Accounts to Sign-in"  > and the   "Manage Apps and Website Connections" links under the > Account information page under the security section. Under each of those > sections you need to remove any apps or accounts that have access to your yahoo > account. In our case we all had face book integration enabled and mobile yahoo > integration. Both of these are suspected of being the cause of the breach in > security at this point. We recomend that you delete and or remove access from > any apps or other accounts period. Even other yahoo services. > > > Like I said, we do not know for sure how they are doing this but our best > educated guess based on what we have ruled out is that it is happening through > some integrated service such as facebook or yahoo mobile or other services. > Either that or yahoo has a direct security breach. This is affecting a lot of > people. The recomendation I got privately from upstream in the computer security > world was to just not use yahoo email since they didn't know how this was > happening and couldn't guarantee it wouldn't happen again. If you > don't use yahoo much and or can change over to another email service easily > then this would be my recomended solution. If like me you have a lot of time > invested in yahoo services such as email, groups etc. then at the least you need > to follow the above recomendations. > > If you have any further questions please let me know. You can reply to my yahoo > email address or you can contact me at my corporate email address at > scott@... You may also call me at 843-465-6555. > > I hope this email is helpful to you. > > Scott Carle > Carle Enterprises, Inc. > http://www.carleenterprises.com > scott@... > office/cell 843-465-6555 > | 28354|28343|2012-06-13 15:19:22|Matt Malone|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|Sometimes I just cannot use my own equations: Corrected: deflection = F L^3 / 3 E I I = width * thickness ^2 / 12 , Width is 1/10, thickness is unknown L is 1/10 So doing the simple ribbon-beam equation, substituting in the scalings for the variables: 1/10 = 1/100 * (1/10)^3 / ( 1/10 * ? ) ? = 1/1000 = (thickness) ^ 3 scale thickness = scale ^1 * original thickness 0.1875 " * (1/10)^1 = 0.01875 " [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28355|28343|2012-06-13 16:06:27|wild_explorer|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|Just need the confirmation. So, according to this formula, 26ga (0.0179") flat steel sheet will behave similar to 3/16" (0.1875") flat steel plate (for 1:10 model)? Asking for verification again, because I need to specify material for the order. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Sometimes I just cannot use my own equations: Corrected: > deflection = F L^3 / 3 E I > > > I = width * thickness ^2 / 12 , Width is 1/10, thickness is unknown > L is 1/10 > > So doing the simple ribbon-beam equation, substituting in the scalings for the variables: > > 1/10 = 1/100 * (1/10)^3 / ( 1/10 * ? ) > > ? = 1/1000 = (thickness) ^ 3 > > scale thickness = scale ^1 * original thickness > > 0.1875 " * (1/10)^1 = 0.01875 " > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28356|28343|2012-06-13 16:14:01|Matt Malone|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|It depends entirely on what sort of loading you are trying to model, what scaling you use for forces, time, speeds etc. And then, as soon as you make it a curved piece of metal, all the equations I have given you are irrelevant. Ask to borrow someone's full sized completed boat, and put loads on it if you want to measure stiffness. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:06:23 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model Just need the confirmation. So, according to this formula, 26ga (0.0179") flat steel sheet will behave similar to 3/16" (0.1875") flat steel plate (for 1:10 model)? Asking for verification again, because I need to specify material for the order. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Sometimes I just cannot use my own equations: Corrected: > deflection = F L^3 / 3 E I > > > I = width * thickness ^2 / 12 , Width is 1/10, thickness is unknown > L is 1/10 > > So doing the simple ribbon-beam equation, substituting in the scalings for the variables: > > 1/10 = 1/100 * (1/10)^3 / ( 1/10 * ? ) > > ? = 1/1000 = (thickness) ^ 3 > > scale thickness = scale ^1 * original thickness > > 0.1875 " * (1/10)^1 = 0.01875 " > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28357|28343|2012-06-13 16:20:04|wild_explorer|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|I need to check if modified pattern folds correctly and "floppiness" of real 3/16" plate using model (to simulate unloading of pre-cut plate). Simple "pulling of the truck" will not work (not enough space). No cranes or forklifts available. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > I think if you want to pull together a scale model for practice, to see the shapes come together, just choose the thickness of metal that is easy to work with and ignore trying to scale the thickness. > | 28358|28343|2012-06-13 17:11:55|Matt Malone|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|"modified pattern" If you walk away from Brent Swain's time and many sea miles tested designs, then you are relying on the basic strength of steel only, no history of success. Shells are so complicated, some of the things that critics say about orgami are a potential outcome on an unproven design. Brent can say, not on my designs build under my supervision, because of history. New design, no history. The ocean produces repetitive loadings. Any sort of stress concentration can cause an effected area of the hull to experience stress cycling. Crack growth is possible, lots of things are possible. And in forming the metal in the first place, some areas have already gone well into their plastic range. They have less scope to absorb more plastic deformation. Brent has history on his designs to say, for his designs this does not impair hull toughness. Even with all the bad things said about fibreglass, it has the advantage that the boat comes out of the mould nearly free of internal stresses. Materials only have a window of stress in which to operate. There is no doubt orgami makes some parts of the boat pre-loaded in tension or compression, pushing the material closer to the edge of the operating window. Brent's particular designs and methods of constructing them, and the varied usage they have seen suggest that though internal stresses must exist, they seem not to be a conspicuous problem. Who knows what modifications might change that, push some seam of the boat into a stress state that use only aggravates. I cannot do anything but suggest you stay with Brent's designs and choose from the range of modifications he has implemented in the past. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:20:01 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model I need to check if modified pattern folds correctly and "floppiness" of real 3/16" plate using model (to simulate unloading of pre-cut plate). Simple "pulling of the truck" will not work (not enough space). No cranes or forklifts available. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > I think if you want to pull together a scale model for practice, to see the shapes come together, just choose the thickness of metal that is easy to work with and ignore trying to scale the thickness. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28359|28343|2012-06-13 17:40:52|wild_explorer|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|Matt, I am totally with you on "Stay with Brent design". No questions about that. I do not even want to touch such complicated subject as "Mathematical method of Estimating strength of Origami hull" - it is not developed yet and I do not think it will be in near future. As you pointed out, trying to model it with scaled model, will not give correct picture as well. Subject is TOO DEEP and practically useless - outcome of such discussion is questionable. Track records that Brent has, is the best prove of his design. Modification of the pattern is minor - I just need to verify it has no surprises when folded. Unloading is another issue I need to verify, that why I asked about correct scaling of the thickness for 1:10 scaled flat plate (to model floppiness of the plate). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > "modified pattern" > > If you walk away from Brent Swain's time and many sea miles tested designs, then you are relying on the basic strength of steel only, no history of success. > > I cannot do anything but suggest you stay with Brent's designs and choose from the range of modifications he has implemented in the past. > > Matt > | 28360|28336|2012-06-13 17:58:04|JOHN|Re: selling|Pics, Location, stage of construction? Brent boat? price ect, ect. Thanks John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "anzleytripp" wrote: > > We have been working winters on our boat for several years and now realize we aren't in the best of health to finish. It's unfinished but has lots of nice features and appliances: gimballed stove, microwave, wood stove/smoker, wood box, freezer, fridge, yanmar motor, lg fresh water tank, lots of storage and closet space all custom built to make the best of space. > If interested please contact us with any questions > | 28361|21163|2012-06-13 18:04:21|brentswain38|Re: Japanese Debris and revisiting the Religious Mooring Bits|Winston mentioned the story of a US Coastguard crew member, who was killed, when a cleat they were trying to tow a boat with, broke free and the line launched it right thru his chest. A similar thing could happen to anyone standing on the dock while the boat was in a surge, maybe even you. Best not deliberately make fragile things which break. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I have used sacrificial line to avoid the problem of irresistable forces and immovable objects.... but I was fully prepared for the results, I thought. Anyone who has ever actually taken a line to failure knows the results are quite unpredictable. Any line with a little stretch, like nylon can build up a tremendous amount of elastic energy in it. If you have 20 feet, and it breaks near your religious mooring bit, then you have 20 feet of line moving away from your boat at high speed. Probably not so bad. Say on the other hand it breaks closer to the other end. Then you have 20 feet of line coming at you at high speed. Off-roaders who winch themselves using trees sometimes lay a blanket or towel over the steel cable, so that in case it breaks, it will loose energy pulling the blanket through the air and will not snap back and not lay a good cut into them, suddenly and without warning. And windows. Many off-road vehicles have lost a window from a snapping line. Yeah, real inconvenient in the bush, then the mosquitos can get in. How about on the water ? I say more inconvenient. So say the snap-back did not do any major damage... What about that broken 20 feet of line, still tied to your religious mooring bit, getting sucked back into the other massive prop again, SNAP right back at you again. > > What is so effing hard or complicated about drilling a couple little holes, installing no massive backing plate, and just use a Canadian Tire docking cleat ? It is two holes and 2 bolts, and probably under $10 installed. If it meets the irresistable force, goodbye, something else now has your docking cleat attached to it and you have resisted the irresistible force. Maybe the two little holes in your boat are a bit bigger. Put two bigger bolts in them to keep the water from dripping in. Done. > > If the line gets snarled in something nasty, I can confidently walk to my cheap cleat and cut the line, knowing, there is no way it is going to break and snap back at me. I know that my usual and customary docking line that I sometimes use on the religious cleat is stronger than the cheap cleat. With a weak line on a strong point, there is no telling what will happen and it is dangerous to approach the point where it attaches... So, you going to watch and wait for the line to maybe break as it is being reeled into a big prop ? > > Dock cleats are so cheap I screwed two of them to the public launch, > just so I could use them twice a year to launch and haul my boat. It > took ten minutes, once. I have already wasted more time on explaining the logic of not > routinely using religious mooring cleats for jobs that are not imagined to need their strength. > > > Short answer: make sure it breaks on your end. You have control of that. > Its as simple as using a small, cheap bolt, like the the shear pins in > most farm equipment, all it is is a cheap, easily replaced, grade 2 bolt of suitable size. > > > > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:59:48 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Japanese Debris and revisiting the Religious Mooring Bits > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some have an incredible knack for making simple problems more complicated.It does keep the anchorages emptier. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > > > > If you're worried about sinking with a dock, instead of going through the > > > trouble of making a second set of sacrificial mooring bits, just use a > > > "weak link" rope between your strong mooring bits and your usual mooring > > > lines. Simple. > > > > > > On 8 June 2012 16:50, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > You describe extremely rare situations. The likelihood of them is > > > > infinitely less than cleats failing when they need to survive. Bruce > > > > Roberts said skegs should be designed to fall off if they hit anything, so > > > > they wont take too much hull with them if they do. The results have been > > > > skegs falling off in mid ocean. > > > > Not much 'Wisdom" in making things deliberately flimsy. Use a smaller > > > > line, if that is what you want. Lines are cheap to replace, and you know if > > > > they are likely to break. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at this dock, and thinking about the most recent discussion on > > > > religious mooring bits made me wonder.... > > > > > > > > > > What would happen if one tied their boat to such a floating dock (where > > > > it was otherwise a good idea to do so) and it choose that time to sink and > > > > take your boat down with it by its religious mooring bits ? Or when rafting > > > > up to something big, that, well did something you did not want your boat > > > > dragged into... Or, lets say there is a mistake and a line fouls into a big > > > > prop and your boat gets winched in... Or something on a wharf that is > > > > supposed to slide up as the tide comes in gets jammed and does not slide > > > > up. I think I would like some normal mooring cleats on my boat that are > > > > meant to fail at a load one would not normally see exceeded. Yes, a set of > > > > religious mooring bits are handy, but, I would be careful how I use them. I > > > > would find them indispensable on say, a drying wall, and would use them > > > > regularly to do regular inspections and maintenance. > > > > > > > > > > BTW, I am guessing that "religious anchors" comes from the same source > > > > as this: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L_kxxwql40 > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: bosdg@ > > > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 08:13:39 -0700 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Japanese Debris > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28363|28343|2012-06-13 18:08:23|Paul Wilson|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|On 14/06/2012 9:40 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > Unloading is another issue I need to verify, that why I asked about > correct scaling of the thickness for 1:10 scaled flat plate (to model > floppiness of the plate). Do you mean unloading off the truck? When I unloaded the sheets I just had a hard point in the ground and then shackled a chain to the plate. The truck driver then just drove away and the plates slid off the back of the truck. Easy, quick, and no lifting. I think you are over-analyzing again. I could be wrong but I believe Brent used card stock or cardboard for his models. I don't see how modeling in metal will tell you anything that cardboard or card stock won't. I believe if you need to design something to such a close tolerance, you are doing something wrong. It is not rocket science. Origami is relatively forgiving and there is a lot of overkill baked in to the method. Paul| 28364|28315|2012-06-13 18:13:27|brentswain38|Re: Thoughts on Sailing Magazines and Insurance|I have about two boats in me , til pension time, and money becomes even more irrelevant. Then I will have more money than I know what to do with. I'll train another kid to build my boats, and send all wannabe builders his way. Nothing more foolish than chasing money you don't need. I'd love to give my book to the womens' shelter then, so they a can make the money off it, and handle printing , binding, mailing and selling it, but they are not interested. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > You should put up a website and advertise Brent....wasnt there a couple of > builders in your area? Remember seeing something on line....thats where > most people look now a days. Contact me off list if interested... > > On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 2:57 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Plastic boats are cheap, and the market is flooded. Finding a good deal on > > a good steel boat is not so easy. I have a couple of friends who bought > > plastic boats cheap, but find the only way they can get a good steel boat > > is to hire me to build them one. They have been looking for several years. > > For affordable, well built steel boats , looks like I'm the only show in > > town ,here in BC. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > > wrote: > > > > > > The industry is dieing a slow death. There are over 2.5 million units for > > > sale in the States alone. The only way manufacturer can make any money is > > > to sell you a high end product as it has the highest margins. Motorcycles > > > went through this cycle. In the 70's X millions of units were sold from > > > 250cc to 1200 cc. and the prices started at under a 1000 new/. Today look > > > at what you can buy and look at the price of new product. Guess in what > > > period of time profit margins were higher...:) > > > > > > Im still waiting for a new Honda 360T to come out......could not kill > > that > > > sucker. Took me through 6 years of university (it was a good place to > > hang > > > out as tuition was cheap) winter and summer and been to most places in > > > Ontario on road trips in those years. > > > > > > Same goes for sailboats. You need 40 feet all tricket out to get into > > > sailing. > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 3:25 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Yachtie consumerism message that > > > > "You really should empty your pockets in MY direction, as anything less > > > > would be irresponsible" Is the suckers game, which keeps many cruisers > > tied > > > > to the dock, while being milked into old age by the marine industry.I > > am > > > > proud to have been banned from many of their sites, for having tried to > > > > inform people of alternatives to filling their pockets, for inferior > > gear > > > > and boats. > > > > The contempt of assholes is the sincerest form of flattery, as by their > > > > contempt they are admitting you are not one of them. > > > > If they liked me, that would be an extreme insult. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I was leafing through a magazine in a bookstore today. The mag is > > called > > > > 'Canadian Yachting West'. Similar to Pacific Yachting but even > > glossier. > > > > > > > > > > Really interesting article , several pages long , on why boatowners > > > > should NOT do work or jobs on their own boat, not safe at all. I had to > > > > scan through a bit to actually confirm the point. Of course this > > should not > > > > surprise me , but it was so blatant. I laughed out loud. > > > > > Then I noticed that many of the ads in the mag were for insurance > > > > companies. > > > > > > > > > > Repeated recommendations in the article to 'always get a good marine > > > > surveyor', which hearkens back to another recent thread on this forum. > > > > Contradiction in terms. > > > > > > > > > > Haidan is lucky. Now he has constant access to one of those 'marine > > > > technicians' and his days of DIY jobs are over. (joke) > > > > > > > > > > Speaking of insurance , I have actually been asked for 'proof of > > > > insurance ' in two places over the past few years. The first was in > > > > Ensenada, Mexico , and the second place was in Puerto Williams ,Chile. > > > > > > > > > > I do actually have liability insurance for the boat , as a rider on > > > > house insurance for about $27 per year, and I was prescient enough to > > > > photocopy the certificate, all in English,and that was satisfactory. > > Other > > > > folks though who are not burdened with house ownership, were easily > > able to > > > > design and print a very official looking 'insurance cerificate' that > > saved > > > > face for all parties. They did this in a local internet cafe with a > > > > printer, took about 30 minutes. The Mexican and Chilean functionaries > > seem > > > > to realise that the required insurance is so abstract as to be > > ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > I wonder if anyone has insurance that would compensate the Chilean > > > > Armada for heading out overnight to pull your boat off the beach, as > > often > > > > happens. I am sure that's what they want, along with insurance to > > cover the > > > > cost of cleaning up after a wrecked and abandoned yacht. > > > > > > > > > > However, after talking with the skipper of the Armada Rescue Cutter > > in > > > > the Cape Horn area, what he really wants is for yachties to help each > > other > > > > as much as possible, but to call by radio when needed , and they will > > help > > > > regardless. > > > > > cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28365|21163|2012-06-13 18:15:54|brentswain38|Re: Japanese Debris and revisiting the Religious Mooring Bits|Every cruising boat should have some kind of line cutter on his prop shaft. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > Hi Matt, > > What you say makes sense. I do have experience with lines breaking etc. I'm > currently second captain on a 474 gross ton tugboat. I just don't agree > with your approach. If I understand correctly, you're proposing using these > sacrificial mooring bits in situations where you're getting towed. I > wouldn't appreciate someone engineering a solution that involves a cheap > docking cleat shearing off his deck and getting slingshotted at my > deckhands. Another captain pulled a mooring bit off a barge when there was > significant resistance from ice on the water. This ~30 kilo piece of metal > flew hundreds of feet into the water. No one got hurt that time. > > If you don't use line that's strong enough to pull your boat under water, > which takes quite a bit of force, if the rope is run through a fitting near > the centerline, and it gets caught in a big propeller, just put your head > down until it snaps. I've also seen smaller lines get caught in a tug's > props, and it doesn't last very long. > > Anyway, every man does what he wants, but I wouldn't do it your way, just > because of the more-dangerous (to other people) failure modes and the > additional deck clutter. If you used a weak-line rope, you wouldn't have to > carry an set of ropes. I'm talking about a length of a few feet, with an > eye spliced on each end. Just a rope tail, really. Then you know it'll fail > there, near your mooring bit, instead of somewhere along your stronger > mooring line. > > Regards, > Max > > On 12 June 2012 15:55, Matt Malone wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > I have used sacrificial line to avoid the problem of irresistable forces > > and immovable objects.... but I was fully prepared for the results, I > > thought. Anyone who has ever actually taken a line to failure knows the > > results are quite unpredictable. Any line with a little stretch, like nylon > > can build up a tremendous amount of elastic energy in it. If you have 20 > > feet, and it breaks near your religious mooring bit, then you have 20 feet > > of line moving away from your boat at high speed. Probably not so bad. Say > > on the other hand it breaks closer to the other end. Then you have 20 feet > > of line coming at you at high speed. Off-roaders who winch themselves using > > trees sometimes lay a blanket or towel over the steel cable, so that in > > case it breaks, it will loose energy pulling the blanket through the air > > and will not snap back and not lay a good cut into them, suddenly and > > without warning. And windows. Many off-road vehicles have lost a window > > from a snapping line. Yeah, real inconvenient in the bush, then the > > mosquitos can get in. How about on the water ? I say more inconvenient. So > > say the snap-back did not do any major damage... What about that broken 20 > > feet of line, still tied to your religious mooring bit, getting sucked back > > into the other massive prop again, SNAP right back at you again. > > > > What is so effing hard or complicated about drilling a couple little > > holes, installing no massive backing plate, and just use a Canadian Tire > > docking cleat ? It is two holes and 2 bolts, and probably under $10 > > installed. If it meets the irresistable force, goodbye, something else now > > has your docking cleat attached to it and you have resisted the > > irresistible force. Maybe the two little holes in your boat are a bit > > bigger. Put two bigger bolts in them to keep the water from dripping in. > > Done. > > > > If the line gets snarled in something nasty, I can confidently walk to my > > cheap cleat and cut the line, knowing, there is no way it is going to break > > and snap back at me. I know that my usual and customary docking line that I > > sometimes use on the religious cleat is stronger than the cheap cleat. With > > a weak line on a strong point, there is no telling what will happen and it > > is dangerous to approach the point where it attaches... So, you going to > > watch and wait for the line to maybe break as it is being reeled into a big > > prop ? > > > > Dock cleats are so cheap I screwed two of them to the public launch, > > just so I could use them twice a year to launch and haul my boat. It > > took ten minutes, once. I have already wasted more time on explaining the > > logic of not > > routinely using religious mooring cleats for jobs that are not imagined to > > need their strength. > > > > Short answer: make sure it breaks on your end. You have control of that. > > Its as simple as using a small, cheap bolt, like the the shear pins in > > most farm equipment, all it is is a cheap, easily replaced, grade 2 bolt > > of suitable size. > > > > Matt > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28366|28343|2012-06-13 18:21:56|wild_explorer|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|Yep, I saw pictures and the video of unloading plates by "pulling off" from truck bed. Really easy... The problem I have, that driver will be able to back up for unloading, but there is NO ROOM to drive straight forward about 1.5-2 length of the truck for pulling plate off. It is tight space there. I wish I had a lot of space around... No such luck. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Do you mean unloading off the truck? When I unloaded the sheets I just > had a hard point in the ground and then shackled a chain to the plate. > The truck driver then just drove away and the plates slid off the back > of the truck. Easy, quick, and no lifting. | 28367|28343|2012-06-13 18:35:46|Aaron|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|Wild If you are going to have that much trouble unloading how are you going to get a finished boat out of the basement? Aaron   ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 2:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model   Yep, I saw pictures and the video of unloading plates by "pulling off" from truck bed. Really easy... The problem I have, that driver will be able to back up for unloading, but there is NO ROOM to drive straight forward about 1.5-2 length of the truck for pulling plate off. It is tight space there. I wish I had a lot of space around... No such luck. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Do you mean unloading off the truck? When I unloaded the sheets I just > had a hard point in the ground and then shackled a chain to the plate. > The truck driver then just drove away and the plates slid off the back > of the truck. Easy, quick, and no lifting. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28368|28343|2012-06-13 18:42:26|Carl Volkwein|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|Way back when you didn't need a CDL to drive one of those trucks, I was in a fabricating warehouse and everybody was on lunch break, so I'd have to weight, The load was kind'a towards the back anyway, so I backed her up, hit the brakes, then drove out from under it. I hadn't thought about that for years, thanks guys. carlvolkwein ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 6:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model   Yep, I saw pictures and the video of unloading plates by "pulling off" from truck bed. Really easy... The problem I have, that driver will be able to back up for unloading, but there is NO ROOM to drive straight forward about 1.5-2 length of the truck for pulling plate off. It is tight space there. I wish I had a lot of space around... No such luck. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Do you mean unloading off the truck? When I unloaded the sheets I just > had a hard point in the ground and then shackled a chain to the plate. > The truck driver then just drove away and the plates slid off the back > of the truck. Easy, quick, and no lifting. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28369|28343|2012-06-13 19:07:52|wild_explorer|Re: Correct metal thickness for 1:10 model|Put a couple of truck axles under twin keels and roll it out ;))) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Wild > If you are going to have that much trouble unloading how are you going to get a finished boat out of the basement? > > Aaron | 28370|28324|2012-06-13 19:13:41|Carl Volkwein|Re: jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel?|How about the diferance between a saw and a torch for a not real big job? carlvolkwein ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 2:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel?   Great post.A sawzall may be the only way to get into tight corners, where a jigsaw wont.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I've cut lots of steel with a saber saw. A couple of things that help a > lot. Get a saw with blade oscillation. The blade goes forward on the up cut > stroke, and backwards on the down stroke so the teeth don't drag. This > greatly improves blade life. Use a blade that has at least two teeth in the > metal at a all times, but not much finer than that. If you use a fine blade > the saw can't cut with all the teeth so they just skid over the surface and > get hot. Use a variable speed saw, and a very slow blade speed. Use a > lubricant, the stick wax applied to the blade works well. Hold the saw down > to the surface very tightly, and keep good pressure against the cut. If the > blade pitch, speed and oscillation are all right it will cut like a nibbler, > quickly with big chips and very little heat. I have cut lots of steel and > stainless from 16 ga. to 3/4" thick using these tricks. > > I don't care for a sawsall for cutting sheet steel. They are great for > cutting off pipes and angle, but they don't do a great job on sheet metal. > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Malone > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 3:22 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel? > > > > My problem with either a jig saw or reciprocating saw is trying to cut metal > that is too thin. At least with a reciprocating saw, one might recline the > blade so that more teeth are bearing through the thickness of metal. This, > a grinder and a "metal" blade in a wood saw are all I have used to cut > metal. The "metal" blade on a saw is faster but there are sparks. I > would catch them on wet cloth. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kymd@... > Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:29:56 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] jigsaw or reciprocating saw to cut steel? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all > > > > I am just preparing for some work on my 40' steelie. 30 y.o. with a bit of > rust here and there on deck or where deck meets sides. I want to cut some > of this out here and there. I am worried about using a grinder or plasma > cutter because they are likely to spray hot metal over nice interior wood. > > > > I saw a comment on another website about cutting steel using a jigsaw with a > steel blade. I got 4mm (5/32) hull and deck. I also wondered about those > reciprocating saws (say Milwaukee M18 Hackzall). Makita 4350FCT jigsaw > (720w) user manual says it can do 10mm (3/8) thick steel. > > > > Has anyone tried jigsaws or reciprocating saws to cut steel – will one or > the other do the job? Any idea how long blades last for 4mm steel? > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28371|28371|2012-06-14 07:59:37|Maxime Camirand|Welding boat parts in a city|Hi group, I'd like to start building a 36 or a 40 next year. In order to save money on rental of a building lot, it would be best to have all of the small bits made in advance. Windlass, anchors, mooring bits, hatches, etc. I;m on a 2-week on/off rotation for work, so I have plenty of time to do this. However, I live in an apartment in Montreal, so I don't have a garage where I can freely weld and chip slag. My neighbors (and the landlord) would harass me if I tried to do it on my balcony. Has anyone faced this problem? Where did you find a place to work? Regards, Max| 28372|28371|2012-06-14 09:06:18|chris123|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|I know the area well as I used to guide up at Tremblant for a flyfishing outfit. Second best job I ever had for 3 seasons. Between Montreal and Tremblant there are lots of small villages and farmers with vacant land. I would go on the hunt to find an friendly farmer and see what I could arrange. Lots of empty barns and land between the city and the hill. Just get off the main route, travel the back roads and see what you come up with. That's what I would do as it a short run. Less then 1.5 hrs from the city. Best of luck. On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Maxime Camirand wrote: > ** > > > Hi group, > > I'd like to start building a 36 or a 40 next year. In order to save > money on rental of a building lot, it would be best to have all of the > small bits made in advance. Windlass, anchors, mooring bits, hatches, > etc. I;m on a 2-week on/off rotation for work, so I have plenty of > time to do this. However, I live in an apartment in Montreal, so I > don't have a garage where I can freely weld and chip slag. My > neighbors (and the landlord) would harass me if I tried to do it on my > balcony. > > Has anyone faced this problem? Where did you find a place to work? > > Regards, > Max > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28373|28371|2012-06-14 09:11:42|Robert Jones|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|If you work a few afternoons a month on your offtime for almost any farmer, put his stuff back where you find it, he will almost give you his farm. I know, I have been one of those farmers for 40 years. --- On Thu, 6/14/12, chris123 wrote: From: chris123 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 7:06 AM I know the area well as I used to guide up at Tremblant for a flyfishing outfit. Second best job I ever had for 3 seasons. Between Montreal and Tremblant there are lots of small villages and farmers with vacant land. I would go on the hunt to find an friendly farmer and see what I could arrange. Lots of empty barns and land between the city and the hill. Just get off the main route, travel the back roads and see what you come up with. That's what I would do as it a short run. Less then 1.5 hrs from the city. Best of luck. On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Maxime Camirand wrote: > ** > > > Hi group, > > I'd like to start building a 36 or a 40 next year. In order to save > money on rental of a building lot, it would be best to have all of the > small bits made in advance. Windlass, anchors, mooring bits, hatches, > etc. I;m on a 2-week on/off rotation for work, so I have plenty of > time to do this. However, I live in an apartment in Montreal, so I > don't have a garage where I can freely weld and chip slag. My > neighbors (and the landlord) would harass me if I tried to do it on my > balcony. > > Has anyone faced this problem? Where did you find a place to work? > > Regards, > Max >  > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28374|28371|2012-06-14 09:34:37|Maxime Camirand|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|Hi guys, Thanks for the replies. What you suggest is a good plan for the actual build of the boat, maybe next summer. I'll see if I can find a sympathetic farmer in one of the outlying villages. Then I can camp onsite for a few days at a time. Or sleep in the barn. The road up to Tremblant is a good bet, or going west on the new highway 30 towards Montebello. In the meantime, though, I'm just looking for a small space where I can build the detail parts of the boat in advance, without being harassed by the bylaw police or landlord because of noise or sparks. I don't even have a car, and would rather not buy one until I'm building the shell of the boat. That limits me to the radius of the public transit system on the island. I was wondering if someone had been able to use the workshop at a college, or if there is such a thing as a community workshop, or other ideas along those lines. Regards, Max On 14 June 2012 09:11, Robert Jones wrote: > ** > > > If you work a few afternoons a month on your offtime for almost any > farmer, put his stuff back where you find it, he will almost give you his > farm. I know, I have been one of those farmers for 40 years. > > --- On Thu, 6/14/12, chris123 wrote: > > From: chris123 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 7:06 AM > > > I know the area well as I used to guide up at Tremblant for a flyfishing > outfit. Second best job I ever had for 3 seasons. > > Between Montreal and Tremblant there are lots of small villages and farmers > with vacant land. I would go on the hunt to find an friendly farmer and see > what I could arrange. Lots of empty barns and land between the city and the > hill. Just get off the main route, travel the back roads and see what you > come up with. That's what I would do as it a short run. Less then 1.5 hrs > from the city. > > Best of luck. > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Maxime Camirand >wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Hi group, > > > > I'd like to start building a 36 or a 40 next year. In order to save > > money on rental of a building lot, it would be best to have all of the > > small bits made in advance. Windlass, anchors, mooring bits, hatches, > > etc. I;m on a 2-week on/off rotation for work, so I have plenty of > > time to do this. However, I live in an apartment in Montreal, so I > > don't have a garage where I can freely weld and chip slag. My > > neighbors (and the landlord) would harass me if I tried to do it on my > > balcony. > > > > Has anyone faced this problem? Where did you find a place to work? > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > > > -- > /ch > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28375|28371|2012-06-14 10:33:10|Robert Jones|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|If you sign up for welding classes at community colleges, they will always let you freelance. Good idea, and you will probably not have to pay for gas, rods, and get a discount on steel. You will, however, have to go to class! --- On Thu, 6/14/12, Maxime Camirand wrote: From: Maxime Camirand Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 7:34 AM Hi guys, Thanks for the replies. What you suggest is a good plan for the actual build of the boat, maybe next summer. I'll see if I can find a sympathetic farmer in one of the outlying villages. Then I can camp onsite for a few days at a time. Or sleep in the barn. The road up to Tremblant is a good bet, or going west on the new highway 30 towards Montebello. In the meantime, though, I'm just looking for a small space where I can build the detail parts of the boat in advance, without being harassed by the bylaw police or landlord because of noise or sparks. I don't even have a car, and would rather not buy one until I'm building the shell of the boat. That limits me to the radius of the public transit system on the island. I was wondering if someone had been able to use the workshop at a college, or if there is such a thing as a community workshop, or other ideas along those lines. Regards, Max On 14 June 2012 09:11, Robert Jones wrote: > ** > > > If you work a few afternoons a month on your offtime for almost any > farmer, put his stuff back where you find it, he will almost give you his > farm. I know, I have been one of those farmers for 40 years. > > --- On Thu, 6/14/12, chris123 wrote: > > From: chris123 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 7:06 AM > > > I know the area well as I used to guide up at Tremblant for a flyfishing > outfit. Second best job I ever had for 3 seasons. > > Between Montreal and Tremblant there are lots of small villages and farmers > with vacant land. I would go on the hunt to find an friendly farmer and see > what I could arrange. Lots of empty barns and land between the city and the > hill. Just get off the main route, travel the back roads and see what you > come up with. That's what I would do as it a short run. Less then 1.5 hrs > from the city. > > Best of luck. > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Maxime Camirand >wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Hi group, > > > > I'd like to start building a 36 or a 40 next year. In order to save > > money on rental of a building lot, it would be best to have all of the > > small bits made in advance. Windlass, anchors, mooring bits, hatches, > > etc. I;m on a 2-week on/off rotation for work, so I have plenty of > > time to do this. However, I live in an apartment in Montreal, so I > > don't have a garage where I can freely weld and chip slag. My > > neighbors (and the landlord) would harass me if I tried to do it on my > > balcony. > > > > Has anyone faced this problem? Where did you find a place to work? > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > > > -- > /ch > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28376|28371|2012-06-14 15:36:56|brentswain38|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|You could always get the other students welding up your stuff, instead of bits of scrap. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > If you sign up for welding classes at community colleges, they will always let you freelance. Good idea, and you will probably not have to pay for gas, rods, and get a discount on steel. You will, however, have to go to class! > > --- On Thu, 6/14/12, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > From: Maxime Camirand > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 7:34 AM > > Hi guys, > > Thanks for the replies. What you suggest is a good plan for the actual > build of the boat, maybe next summer. I'll see if I can find a sympathetic > farmer in one of the outlying villages. Then I can camp onsite for a few > days at a time. Or sleep in the barn. The road up to Tremblant is a good > bet, or going west on the new highway 30 towards Montebello. > > In the meantime, though, I'm just looking for a small space where I can > build the detail parts of the boat in advance, without being harassed by > the bylaw police or landlord because of noise or sparks. I don't even have > a car, and would rather not buy one until I'm building the shell of the > boat. That limits me to the radius of the public transit system on the > island. I was wondering if someone had been able to use the workshop at a > college, or if there is such a thing as a community workshop, or other > ideas along those lines. > > Regards, > Max > > On 14 June 2012 09:11, Robert Jones wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > If you work a few afternoons a month on your offtime for almost any > > farmer, put his stuff back where you find it, he will almost give you his > > farm. I know, I have been one of those farmers for 40 years. > > > > --- On Thu, 6/14/12, chris123 wrote: > > > > From: chris123 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 7:06 AM > > > > > > I know the area well as I used to guide up at Tremblant for a flyfishing > > outfit. Second best job I ever had for 3 seasons. > > > > Between Montreal and Tremblant there are lots of small villages and farmers > > with vacant land. I would go on the hunt to find an friendly farmer and see > > what I could arrange. Lots of empty barns and land between the city and the > > hill. Just get off the main route, travel the back roads and see what you > > come up with. That's what I would do as it a short run. Less then 1.5 hrs > > from the city. > > > > Best of luck. > > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Maxime Camirand > >wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Hi group, > > > > > > I'd like to start building a 36 or a 40 next year. In order to save > > > money on rental of a building lot, it would be best to have all of the > > > small bits made in advance. Windlass, anchors, mooring bits, hatches, > > > etc. I;m on a 2-week on/off rotation for work, so I have plenty of > > > time to do this. However, I live in an apartment in Montreal, so I > > > don't have a garage where I can freely weld and chip slag. My > > > neighbors (and the landlord) would harass me if I tried to do it on my > > > balcony. > > > > > > Has anyone faced this problem? Where did you find a place to work? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Max > > > > > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28377|28371|2012-06-14 23:15:20|wild_explorer|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|If you go for community college welding class, be sure to check its welding department policy. In our class (MIG & Stick), it was allowed to weld clean mild steel only. No SS, alloyed steels, painted and coated materials (especially gold/yellow colored coating). "Your materials" and "projects" required the permission/approval of the instructor. Most people are taking classes for certification, they will not weld your "projects". They weld on 1/4" (and up) steel continuously and do not care about material's distortion. Taking welding class is a good idea anyway. You have access to professional equipment and variety of consumables. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > If you sign up for welding classes at community colleges, they will always let you freelance. Good idea, and you will probably not have to pay for gas, rods, and get a discount on steel. You will, however, have to go to class! > | 28378|28371|2012-06-14 23:48:17|James Pronk|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|To bad you are not in my area, you could come by and use my shop. Do you know of any artists that do sculpture work that would let you into there space for a couple of hours a week? I have helped out a few guys this way. James --- On Thu, 6/14/12, Maxime Camirand wrote: From: Maxime Camirand Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 9:34 AM Hi guys, Thanks for the replies. What you suggest is a good plan for the actual build of the boat, maybe next summer. I'll see if I can find a sympathetic farmer in one of the outlying villages. Then I can camp onsite for a few days at a time. Or sleep in the barn. The road up to Tremblant is a good bet, or going west on the new highway 30 towards Montebello. In the meantime, though, I'm just looking for a small space where I can build the detail parts of the boat in advance, without being harassed by the bylaw police or landlord because of noise or sparks. I don't even have a car, and would rather not buy one until I'm building the shell of the boat. That limits me to the radius of the public transit system on the island. I was wondering if someone had been able to use the workshop at a college, or if there is such a thing as a community workshop, or other ideas along those lines. Regards, Max On 14 June 2012 09:11, Robert Jones wrote: > ** > > > If you work a few afternoons a month on your offtime for almost any > farmer, put his stuff back where you find it, he will almost give you his > farm. I know, I have been one of those farmers for 40 years. > > --- On Thu, 6/14/12, chris123 wrote: > > From: chris123 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 7:06 AM > > > I know the area well as I used to guide up at Tremblant for a flyfishing > outfit. Second best job I ever had for 3 seasons. > > Between Montreal and Tremblant there are lots of small villages and farmers > with vacant land. I would go on the hunt to find an friendly farmer and see > what I could arrange. Lots of empty barns and land between the city and the > hill. Just get off the main route, travel the back roads and see what you > come up with. That's what I would do as it a short run. Less then 1.5 hrs > from the city. > > Best of luck. > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Maxime Camirand >wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Hi group, > > > > I'd like to start building a 36 or a 40 next year. In order to save > > money on rental of a building lot, it would be best to have all of the > > small bits made in advance. Windlass, anchors, mooring bits, hatches, > > etc. I;m on a 2-week on/off rotation for work, so I have plenty of > > time to do this. However, I live in an apartment in Montreal, so I > > don't have a garage where I can freely weld and chip slag. My > > neighbors (and the landlord) would harass me if I tried to do it on my > > balcony. > > > > Has anyone faced this problem? Where did you find a place to work? > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > > > -- > /ch > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28379|28371|2012-06-15 09:12:01|Maxime Camirand|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|Good ideas from everyone. It's hard for me to take a course because I'm out of town 2 weeks out of 4. That would certainly be ideal, though. I think I'll have to find like-minded people, like welding artists. My employer has a section of in the port of Montreal as a tug base, but it would be hard to work there because of the sleeping crews on the tugs. The chipping hammer would earn me lots of enemies. I was thinking that maybe I could get into MIG as a compromise, only for building detail parts (would still use stick for the boat). That avoids the worst of the noise (chipping slag), which is what would really get me into trouble in most settings, like at the port beside the sleeping tug crews, or in an urban back yard. What do you guys think? Is it usable at all outdoors? On 14 June 2012 23:48, James Pronk wrote: > ** > > > To bad you are not in my area, you could come by and use my shop. > Do you know of any artists that do sculpture work that would let you into > there space for a couple of hours a week? I have helped out a few guys this > way. > James > > > --- On Thu, 6/14/12, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > From: Maxime Camirand > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 9:34 AM > > > Hi guys, > > Thanks for the replies. What you suggest is a good plan for the actual > build of the boat, maybe next summer. I'll see if I can find a sympathetic > farmer in one of the outlying villages. Then I can camp onsite for a few > days at a time. Or sleep in the barn. The road up to Tremblant is a good > bet, or going west on the new highway 30 towards Montebello. > > In the meantime, though, I'm just looking for a small space where I can > build the detail parts of the boat in advance, without being harassed by > the bylaw police or landlord because of noise or sparks. I don't even have > a car, and would rather not buy one until I'm building the shell of the > boat. That limits me to the radius of the public transit system on the > island. I was wondering if someone had been able to use the workshop at a > college, or if there is such a thing as a community workshop, or other > ideas along those lines. > > Regards, > Max > > On 14 June 2012 09:11, Robert Jones wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > If you work a few afternoons a month on your offtime for almost any > > farmer, put his stuff back where you find it, he will almost give you his > > farm. I know, I have been one of those farmers for 40 years. > > > > --- On Thu, 6/14/12, chris123 wrote: > > > > From: chris123 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 7:06 AM > > > > > > I know the area well as I used to guide up at Tremblant for a flyfishing > > outfit. Second best job I ever had for 3 seasons. > > > > Between Montreal and Tremblant there are lots of small villages and > farmers > > with vacant land. I would go on the hunt to find an friendly farmer and > see > > what I could arrange. Lots of empty barns and land between the city and > the > > hill. Just get off the main route, travel the back roads and see what you > > come up with. That's what I would do as it a short run. Less then 1.5 hrs > > from the city. > > > > Best of luck. > > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Maxime Camirand > >wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Hi group, > > > > > > I'd like to start building a 36 or a 40 next year. In order to save > > > money on rental of a building lot, it would be best to have all of the > > > small bits made in advance. Windlass, anchors, mooring bits, hatches, > > > etc. I;m on a 2-week on/off rotation for work, so I have plenty of > > > time to do this. However, I live in an apartment in Montreal, so I > > > don't have a garage where I can freely weld and chip slag. My > > > neighbors (and the landlord) would harass me if I tried to do it on my > > > balcony. > > > > > > Has anyone faced this problem? Where did you find a place to work? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Max > > > > > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28380|28371|2012-06-15 12:53:52|James Pronk|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|With the right rod and good tecnique the slag will come off with out to much chipping, Like 6012,6013, 7014 and 308 and 309 stainless. A wire wheel on a 4.5" grinder works well with 6011 rod. James --- On Fri, 6/15/12, Maxime Camirand wrote: From: Maxime Camirand Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, June 15, 2012, 9:11 AM Good ideas from everyone. It's hard for me to take a course because I'm out of town 2 weeks out of 4. That would certainly be ideal, though. I think I'll have to find like-minded people, like welding artists. My employer has a section of in the port of Montreal as a tug base, but it would be hard to work there because of the sleeping crews on the tugs. The chipping hammer would earn me lots of enemies. I was thinking that maybe I could get into MIG as a compromise, only for building detail parts (would still use stick for the boat). That avoids the worst of the noise (chipping slag), which is what would really get me into trouble in most settings, like at the port beside the sleeping tug crews, or in an urban back yard. What do you guys think? Is it usable at all outdoors? On 14 June 2012 23:48, James Pronk wrote: > ** > > > To bad you are not in my area, you could come by and use my shop. > Do you know of any artists that do sculpture work that would let you into > there space for a couple of hours a week? I have helped out a few guys this > way. > James > > > --- On Thu, 6/14/12, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > From: Maxime Camirand > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 9:34 AM > > > Hi guys, > > Thanks for the replies. What you suggest is a good plan for the actual > build of the boat, maybe next summer. I'll see if I can find a sympathetic > farmer in one of the outlying villages. Then I can camp onsite for a few > days at a time. Or sleep in the barn. The road up to Tremblant is a good > bet, or going west on the new highway 30 towards Montebello. > > In the meantime, though, I'm just looking for a small space where I can > build the detail parts of the boat in advance, without being harassed by > the bylaw police or landlord because of noise or sparks. I don't even have > a car, and would rather not buy one until I'm building the shell of the > boat. That limits me to the radius of the public transit system on the > island. I was wondering if someone had been able to use the workshop at a > college, or if there is such a thing as a community workshop, or other > ideas along those lines. > > Regards, > Max > > On 14 June 2012 09:11, Robert Jones wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > If you work a few afternoons a month on your offtime for almost any > > farmer, put his stuff back where you find it, he will almost give you his > > farm. I know, I have been one of those farmers for 40 years. > > > > --- On Thu, 6/14/12, chris123 wrote: > > > > From: chris123 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 7:06 AM > > > > > > I know the area well as I used to guide up at Tremblant for a flyfishing > > outfit. Second best job I ever had for 3 seasons. > > > > Between Montreal and Tremblant there are lots of small villages and > farmers > > with vacant land. I would go on the hunt to find an friendly farmer and > see > > what I could arrange. Lots of empty barns and land between the city and > the > > hill. Just get off the main route, travel the back roads and see what you > > come up with. That's what I would do as it a short run. Less then 1.5 hrs > > from the city. > > > > Best of luck. > > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Maxime Camirand > >wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Hi group, > > > > > > I'd like to start building a 36 or a 40 next year. In order to save > > > money on rental of a building lot, it would be best to have all of the > > > small bits made in advance. Windlass, anchors, mooring bits, hatches, > > > etc. I;m on a 2-week on/off rotation for work, so I have plenty of > > > time to do this. However, I live in an apartment in Montreal, so I > > > don't have a garage where I can freely weld and chip slag. My > > > neighbors (and the landlord) would harass me if I tried to do it on my > > > balcony. > > > > > > Has anyone faced this problem? Where did you find a place to work? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Max > > > > > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28381|28371|2012-06-15 17:23:22|wild_explorer|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|For MIG you need shielding gas for SS, etc. If you go for something which requires gas, you may go for TIG. It welds almost anything without slag (just put some tarps/old_carpet around working area - protection from wind). Most inverter Stick welders now come with TIG option. I wish I took TIG class instead of MIG. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > I was thinking that maybe I could get into MIG as a compromise, only for > building detail parts (would still use stick for the boat). That avoids the > worst of the noise (chipping slag), which is what would really get me into > trouble in most settings | 28382|28371|2012-06-15 18:13:42|brentswain38|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|Stainless stick welding is all you will need on a Brentboat. Much cheaper and simpler. No justification for the complexity of MIG or TIG. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > For MIG you need shielding gas for SS, etc. If you go for something which requires gas, you may go for TIG. It welds almost anything without slag (just put some tarps/old_carpet around working area - protection from wind). Most inverter Stick welders now come with TIG option. I wish I took TIG class instead of MIG. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > > > > I was thinking that maybe I could get into MIG as a compromise, only for > > building detail parts (would still use stick for the boat). That avoids the > > worst of the noise (chipping slag), which is what would really get me into > > trouble in most settings > | 28383|28371|2012-06-15 19:18:36|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: sandblasting|I saw this on the UK PBO site it's about grit blasting steel hulls  1. pressure wash to remove salt 2 grit blasting to white metal 3  pressure wash again 4 allow to dry   5  flash rusting should be brushed off  6. Jotamastic 87  applied ????? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28384|28371|2012-06-16 07:07:08|Maxime Camirand|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|Ok, I'll stick with stick. I think I should get a welder that will run off 110V for maximum flexibility and portability, as long as I'm only doing detail parts. I can get a more serious welder later. Any specific recommendations? Regards, Max On 15 June 2012 18:13, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > Stainless stick welding is all you will need on a Brentboat. Much cheaper > and simpler. No justification for the complexity of MIG or TIG. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" > wrote: > > > > For MIG you need shielding gas for SS, etc. If you go for something > which requires gas, you may go for TIG. It welds almost anything without > slag (just put some tarps/old_carpet around working area - protection from > wind). Most inverter Stick welders now come with TIG option. I wish I took > TIG class instead of MIG. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I was thinking that maybe I could get into MIG as a compromise, only > for > > > building detail parts (would still use stick for the boat). That > avoids the > > > worst of the noise (chipping slag), which is what would really get me > into > > > trouble in most settings > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28385|28371|2012-06-16 16:21:51|wild_explorer|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|First, you need to choose electrode, then welder. Why? See example for 309 electrode. http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/en_US/Products/Consumable_StainlessNickelandHighAlloy-Excalibur-Excalibur309309L-17/c656.pdf 3/32" electrodes have current (DC+/AC): - 60-70A - 40-80 1/8" - 90-10 - 60-10 It is preferable to stay at the middle of recommended for electrode range. I think 110V welder are limited to 70-90A. You may find 110v AC welder in this range. This one is made by Lincoln's sub-unit (115V DC inverter has Max 70A output) http://www.centurytool.net/K2789_1_Lincoln_Electric_120V_70A_Inverter_ARC120_p/k2789-1.htm You might find something better for similar price. If you have 240V, it might be better to buy 225A AC welder or 200A DC inverter. I ended up with 240V 200A inverter (cost about $300 now - after price went up). For $600-700 you can get 3-in-1 110/220V unit with plasma cutter. P.S. However, you will be just fine with buzz-box. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > Ok, I'll stick with stick. I think I should get a welder that will run off > 110V for maximum flexibility and portability, as long as I'm only doing > detail parts. I can get a more serious welder later. > > Any specific recommendations? > > Regards, > Max | 28386|28371|2012-06-16 20:04:33|brentswain38|Re: sandblasting|Only more blasting will remove the instant rust blush. No need to pressure wash ,nor any point in doing so if it means you have to blast again. . Just blast and paint. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > I saw this on the UK PBO site it's about grit blasting steel hulls  > > 1. pressure wash to remove salt > > 2 grit blasting to white metal > > 3  pressure wash again > > 4 allow to dry   > > 5  flash rusting should be brushed off  > > 6. Jotamastic 87  applied > > ????? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28387|28371|2012-06-16 21:04:26|James Pronk|Re: sandblasting|What about blasting with high pressure water and sand or the way Doug was blasting with high pressure air and a sand water mix? I guess you could use high pressure air to blow the water off the plates to dry them? James --- On Sat, 6/16/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 16, 2012, 8:04 PM   Only more blasting will remove the instant rust blush. No need to pressure wash ,nor any point in doing so if it means you have to blast again. . Just blast and paint. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > I saw this on the UK PBO site it's about grit blasting steel hulls  > > 1. pressure wash to remove salt > > 2 grit blasting to white metal > > 3  pressure wash again > > 4 allow to dry   > > 5  flash rusting should be brushed off  > > 6. Jotamastic 87  applied > > ????? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28388|28371|2012-06-17 02:15:35|haidan|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|There is much more noise generated by the grinding and cutting either with zip disks or a plasma than the ping of a chipping hammer, and on with stick welding stainless you barely need to chip it, it tends to fly off at you with a vengeance. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > Good ideas from everyone. It's hard for me to take a course because I'm out > of town 2 weeks out of 4. That would certainly be ideal, though. I think > I'll have to find like-minded people, like welding artists. My employer has > a section of in the port of Montreal as a tug base, but it would be hard to > work there because of the sleeping crews on the tugs. The chipping hammer > would earn me lots of enemies. > > I was thinking that maybe I could get into MIG as a compromise, only for > building detail parts (would still use stick for the boat). That avoids the > worst of the noise (chipping slag), which is what would really get me into > trouble in most settings, like at the port beside the sleeping tug crews, > or in an urban back yard. What do you guys think? Is it usable at all > outdoors? > > On 14 June 2012 23:48, James Pronk wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > To bad you are not in my area, you could come by and use my shop. > > Do you know of any artists that do sculpture work that would let you into > > there space for a couple of hours a week? I have helped out a few guys this > > way. > > James > > > > > > --- On Thu, 6/14/12, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > > From: Maxime Camirand > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 9:34 AM > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > Thanks for the replies. What you suggest is a good plan for the actual > > build of the boat, maybe next summer. I'll see if I can find a sympathetic > > farmer in one of the outlying villages. Then I can camp onsite for a few > > days at a time. Or sleep in the barn. The road up to Tremblant is a good > > bet, or going west on the new highway 30 towards Montebello. > > > > In the meantime, though, I'm just looking for a small space where I can > > build the detail parts of the boat in advance, without being harassed by > > the bylaw police or landlord because of noise or sparks. I don't even have > > a car, and would rather not buy one until I'm building the shell of the > > boat. That limits me to the radius of the public transit system on the > > island. I was wondering if someone had been able to use the workshop at a > > college, or if there is such a thing as a community workshop, or other > > ideas along those lines. > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > On 14 June 2012 09:11, Robert Jones wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > If you work a few afternoons a month on your offtime for almost any > > > farmer, put his stuff back where you find it, he will almost give you his > > > farm. I know, I have been one of those farmers for 40 years. > > > > > > --- On Thu, 6/14/12, chris123 wrote: > > > > > > From: chris123 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding boat parts in a city > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > > I know the area well as I used to guide up at Tremblant for a flyfishing > > > outfit. Second best job I ever had for 3 seasons. > > > > > > Between Montreal and Tremblant there are lots of small villages and > > farmers > > > with vacant land. I would go on the hunt to find an friendly farmer and > > see > > > what I could arrange. Lots of empty barns and land between the city and > > the > > > hill. Just get off the main route, travel the back roads and see what you > > > come up with. That's what I would do as it a short run. Less then 1.5 hrs > > > from the city. > > > > > > Best of luck. > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Maxime Camirand > > >wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi group, > > > > > > > > I'd like to start building a 36 or a 40 next year. In order to save > > > > money on rental of a building lot, it would be best to have all of the > > > > small bits made in advance. Windlass, anchors, mooring bits, hatches, > > > > etc. I;m on a 2-week on/off rotation for work, so I have plenty of > > > > time to do this. However, I live in an apartment in Montreal, so I > > > > don't have a garage where I can freely weld and chip slag. My > > > > neighbors (and the landlord) would harass me if I tried to do it on my > > > > balcony. > > > > > > > > Has anyone faced this problem? Where did you find a place to work? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Max > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > /ch > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28389|28371|2012-06-18 11:37:48|Maxime Camirand|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|Hi group, I got lots of good recommendations on here and via email. Looks like I'll get a dual-voltage (110/220) inverter welder. Most of them also do TIG if I want to play around with that. $300 at most. That would let me do most of the pre-build detailing. In terms of a place to work, I've got a few leads for metalworking artists and craftsmen who might like to share shop space with a hobbyist like myself. They're within 15 minutes walking distance. We'll see what they want to charge. If it's more than a hundred or so a month, it's not really worth it, because then I could dispense with doing all the work myself and just buy anchors, windlass etc for the price of the rent. Regards, Max On 17 June 2012 02:15, haidan wrote: > ** > > > There is much more noise generated by the grinding and cutting either with > zip disks or a plasma than the ping of a chipping hammer, and on with stick > welding stainless you barely need to chip it, it tends to fly off at you > with a vengeance. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28390|28390|2012-06-18 12:49:47|Maxime Camirand|Seeing a 40 and a 36|Hi again group, I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails become harder for 1 person to handle alone. Anyone willing to show me their boat? Regards, Max| 28391|28371|2012-06-18 16:25:42|brentswain38|Re: sandblasting|Yes wet blasting works in hot dry weather. You get a rust blush, but thinned epoxy will soak thru it and hold. Friends did that in California with good results. They went behind the blaster and wiped it dry with rags. Another friend did that in a marina yard at night where any blasting was not allowed. No one noticed. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > What about blasting with high pressure water and sand or the way Doug was blasting with high pressure air and a sand water mix? I guess you could use high pressure air to blow the water off the plates to dry them? > James > > --- On Sat, 6/16/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Saturday, June 16, 2012, 8:04 PM > > > >   > > > > Only more blasting will remove the instant rust blush. No need to pressure wash ,nor any point in doing so if it means you have to blast again. . Just blast and paint. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > > > I saw this on the UK PBO site it's about grit blasting steel hulls  > > > > 1. pressure wash to remove salt > > > > 2 grit blasting to white metal > > > > 3  pressure wash again > > > > 4 allow to dry   > > > > 5  flash rusting should be brushed off  > > > > 6. Jotamastic 87  applied > > > > ????? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28392|28390|2012-06-18 16:29:52|brentswain38|Re: Seeing a 40 and a 36|There are plenty of 36 footers on Vancouver Island , but not many 40s have been built here. There are three around me now in Comox and 5 more in the area. One 40 is near the airport Marina in Richmond ,last I heard. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > Hi again group, > > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > > Regards, > Max > | 28393|28371|2012-06-18 16:55:23|Paul Wilson|Re: sandblasting|There are a couple of epoxy primers specifically made to penetrate marginal rust and rust blush after wet blasting. I know Altex (Carboline) makes one and also PPG (Ameron) makes one. They are relatively cheap since a little goes a long way. They are very runny (like water) but they keep their wet film on any sharp corners where a thinned epoxy may not. You can see it almost wick in to the steel. Really good stuff and it is what the oil rig and commercial guys use after wet blasting. Altra Lock 576 known as Rustbond in US. Carboline bought out Altex. http://www.altexcoatings.co.nz/vdb/document/1267 http://www.carboline.com/products/product-brands/products-by-brand/product-details/?brand=Rustbond&product=0922 Amerlock Sealer. Available worldwide through PPG (Ameron/ Amercoat) http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/Sealer_PDS_AI.pdf Cheers, Paul On 19/06/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Yes wet blasting works in hot dry weather. You get a rust blush, but > thinned epoxy will soak thru it and hold. Friends did that in > California with good results. They went behind the blaster and wiped > it dry with rags. Another friend did that in a marina yard at night > where any blasting was not allowed. No one noticed. > | 28394|28390|2012-06-18 22:05:42|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Seeing a 40 and a 36|The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the difference in length! Gary H. Lucas From: Maxime Camirand Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 Hi again group, I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails become harder for 1 person to handle alone. Anyone willing to show me their boat? Regards, Max Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28395|28390|2012-06-18 22:35:16|Matt Malone|Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Perhaps the cube of the ratio or fractional increase in length. If 36' has a cost of X, then 40' would have a cost of 1.37 X, or 37% more expensive. Good question on being able to handle a boat singlehanded. Some would recommend breaking up the sail plan, as a ketch perhaps, to reduce the handling loads. Others would suggest bigger winches with a larger reduction, but that just means cranking for longer to get the sails where they need to be. Others might suggest powered winches. I would appreciate hearing other's opinions on those options. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gary.lucas@... Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:06:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the difference in length! Gary H. Lucas From: Maxime Camirand Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 Hi again group, I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails become harder for 1 person to handle alone. Anyone willing to show me their boat? Regards, Max Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28396|28371|2012-06-18 22:52:40|Doug Jackson|Re: sandblasting|Thank you very much for this post. Your's too Brent about paint coats.   I was going to pick up some TSP, trisodium phosphate and test spraying it on with a hand sprayer after wet sand blasting. I read the ph needs to be 9 and it will largely prevent flash rust. Has anyone tried this?    Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting   There are a couple of epoxy primers specifically made to penetrate marginal rust and rust blush after wet blasting. I know Altex (Carboline) makes one and also PPG (Ameron) makes one. They are relatively cheap since a little goes a long way. They are very runny (like water) but they keep their wet film on any sharp corners where a thinned epoxy may not. You can see it almost wick in to the steel. Really good stuff and it is what the oil rig and commercial guys use after wet blasting. Altra Lock 576 known as Rustbond in US. Carboline bought out Altex. http://www.altexcoatings.co.nz/vdb/document/1267 http://www.carboline.com/products/product-brands/products-by-brand/product-details/?brand=Rustbond&product=0922 Amerlock Sealer. Available worldwide through PPG (Ameron/ Amercoat) http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/Sealer_PDS_AI.pdf Cheers, Paul On 19/06/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Yes wet blasting works in hot dry weather. You get a rust blush, but > thinned epoxy will soak thru it and hold. Friends did that in > California with good results. They went behind the blaster and wiped > it dry with rags. Another friend did that in a marina yard at night > where any blasting was not allowed. No one noticed. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28397|28390|2012-06-19 00:46:56|Paul Wilson|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Cost I think has as much to do with displacement as length. The heavier the boat, the more materials going in to it and the larger the sail area to make it move. As an example, a Westsail 32 would probably cost a lot more to rig and fit out than a Swain Origami 36. Making a boat a ketch adds a lot to the cost. More spars, fittings and rigging. I wouldn't consider a ketch unless I was going well over 50 feet. Handling a 40 footer single-handed is no big deal. No harder when offshore than a 36 footer. Slab and roller reefing makes it easy. Some say handling a larger boat offshore is easier because it moves around less. I tend to agree as long as nothing breaks and up to a limit....say 45 feet. I know of a 65 year old who single-hands a 65 footer but he is ex-special forces and much tougher than me. In my opinion, docking, close maneuvering, and handling a large anchor is the real restriction when it comes to boat size, not sailing it. Cheers, Paul On 19/06/2012 2:35 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > Perhaps the cube of the ratio or fractional increase in length. > > If 36' has a cost of X, then 40' would have a cost of 1.37 X, or 37% more expensive. > > Good question on being able to handle a boat singlehanded. Some would recommend breaking up the sail plan, as a ketch perhaps, to reduce the handling loads. Others would suggest bigger winches with a larger reduction, but that just means cranking for longer to get the sails where they need to be. Others might suggest powered winches. > > I would appreciate hearing other's opinions on those options. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gary.lucas@... > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:06:00 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the difference in length! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > From: Maxime Camirand > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > Hi again group, > > > > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build > > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see > > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make > > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow > > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a > > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more > > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > > > > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 28398|28371|2012-06-19 01:46:28|Paul Wilson|Re: sandblasting|I would ask a knowledgeable paint rep....I suspect he will say not to use the TSP or if he did to wash it well after. A problem with some paint failure is salt so if you are blasting a used boat they recommend doing a good high pressure wet wash to get any salt out of the steel and old coatings first. I used to think paint reps were the lowest form on earth but lately the ones I have talked to really know their stuff. The ones in NZ seem to know anyway. 20 years ago the ones in Canada would tell you anything you wanted to hear in order to get a sale. You must talk to one that deals with offshore commercial stuff and sells to the oil rigs or oil service sector offshore. Ignore the yachty types who only sell to the boat yards. They will have limited experience with steel and all they care about are commissions and glossy finishes. Water blasting is very common now. Ultra high pressure blasting is up to 35,000 psi and will strip any epoxy right off without using any grit. It is expensive and specialized equipment. On previously dry blasted and painted surfaces, this is commonly all they do now since there is already a blast profile in the steel. For new work, I would do a dry blast if I can. The paint reps told me it is still the preferred method over a wet/grit blast. I got two paint scheds awhile ago...one from Altex and one from PPG for both wet and dry blast with their recommendations. If you want, I can send it to you or post it to the group. Both paint systems are very well proven. I don't want to take anything away from Brent's recommendations of coal tar epoxy but unfortunately, I couldn't get coal tar epoxy easily here and I wanted a system that was "future proof". Coal tar epoxy is being discontinued by many paint companies for environmental reasons. I ended up trading some work and got a great deal with Altex. A bonus was that the blaster/painter was familiar with it. I wasn't allowed to blast the boat myself in our local boat yard. Cheers, Paul On 19/06/2012 2:52 p.m., Doug Jackson wrote: > > Thank you very much for this post. Your's too Brent about paint coats. > > I was going to pick up some TSP, trisodium phosphate and test spraying > it on with a hand sprayer after wet sand blasting. I read the ph needs > to be 9 and it will largely prevent flash rust. Has anyone tried this? > > Doug > SVSeeker.com > | 28399|28371|2012-06-19 09:00:47|Doug Jackson|Re: sandblasting|Thanks Paul, yes please post those paint schedules, I sure I'm not the only one that will appreciate you doing all of the research.    Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 12:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting   I would ask a knowledgeable paint rep....I suspect he will say not to use the TSP or if he did to wash it well after. A problem with some paint failure is salt so if you are blasting a used boat they recommend doing a good high pressure wet wash to get any salt out of the steel and old coatings first. I used to think paint reps were the lowest form on earth but lately the ones I have talked to really know their stuff. The ones in NZ seem to know anyway. 20 years ago the ones in Canada would tell you anything you wanted to hear in order to get a sale. You must talk to one that deals with offshore commercial stuff and sells to the oil rigs or oil service sector offshore. Ignore the yachty types who only sell to the boat yards. They will have limited experience with steel and all they care about are commissions and glossy finishes. Water blasting is very common now. Ultra high pressure blasting is up to 35,000 psi and will strip any epoxy right off without using any grit. It is expensive and specialized equipment. On previously dry blasted and painted surfaces, this is commonly all they do now since there is already a blast profile in the steel. For new work, I would do a dry blast if I can. The paint reps told me it is still the preferred method over a wet/grit blast. I got two paint scheds awhile ago...one from Altex and one from PPG for both wet and dry blast with their recommendations. If you want, I can send it to you or post it to the group. Both paint systems are very well proven. I don't want to take anything away from Brent's recommendations of coal tar epoxy but unfortunately, I couldn't get coal tar epoxy easily here and I wanted a system that was "future proof". Coal tar epoxy is being discontinued by many paint companies for environmental reasons. I ended up trading some work and got a great deal with Altex. A bonus was that the blaster/painter was familiar with it. I wasn't allowed to blast the boat myself in our local boat yard. Cheers, Paul On 19/06/2012 2:52 p.m., Doug Jackson wrote: > > Thank you very much for this post. Your's too Brent about paint coats. > > I was going to pick up some TSP, trisodium phosphate and test spraying > it on with a hand sprayer after wet sand blasting. I read the ph needs > to be 9 and it will largely prevent flash rust. Has anyone tried this? > > Doug > SVSeeker.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28400|28390|2012-06-19 12:42:45|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Costs ... well. In terms of sail-handling You are mostly limited by the hoisting weight of Your sails, for sheeting is easily done without load/wind in the very sail to sheet, so You'd luff a bit, pull it in and go back on course ... I suppose You wouldn't race her round bouys gaining fractions of seconds. Fractioned sailplans are a good idea when short in lead/ballast/draft, for You avoid too much height of the load over deck, plus You'd be able to balance Your sailplan much easier for the very course needed, plus the reduction of weight per sail is reasonably, plus You have a lot more ways to shorten sail. One more mast, one more boom, some more standing and running rigging, quite a number of toggles and terminals to monitor, though. Depends on where You are, some place there are masts second hand to get for next to nothing, and "traditional" terminals might be some work, but they don't break out of the blue (what pressed stainless does all the time). Ketches are constantly ill-reputed when it comes to windward performance, what I don't second. A meticulously trimmed Ketch sails way better windward than an average Marconi Tupperware under "performance" production rig, no matter reefed or not. "... Some say handling a larger boat offshore is easier because it moves around less. ..." The "rocking around" isn't a thing of weight or length alone, but also thing of hullform, metacenter, form of the keel, load distribution and some more factors. "... , docking, close maneuvering, and handling a large anchor is the real restriction when it comes to boat size, not sailing it ..." Handling a large anchor, well, this might be limiting, but You have to haul Your Dinghy as well, so as a singlehander You need some sort of hauling boom/device anyway. When it comes to close maneuvering and docking, things are a mere question of training and really knowing Your boat and how it will behave (or not behave at all, in case of backing, for example). Add a bit of ancient seamanship, I for example prefer to first ly on a roadstead even being in company in an unknown place, then all this is half the threat. With a long keeled traditional I get some help and a pusher/tug before docking in an unknown or difficult place anyway, for those simply aren't made for reverse parking short- or singlehanded, but even sluggish monsters do behave in a reproducable (while funny) way, and to learn to turn her on the spot is nevertheless possible. Some people tend to put in a lot of freaky technic like lateral thrusters to enable any intended direction to go by push-button, but keeping those in working condition is by far more costly than a tug/pusher once in a while. Same would be my opinion concerning electrical winches or even hydraulic ones. You better take the costs to ketch Your rig once than stick with urgently needed freaky gear to maintain all the time. 0.02 ct from my side. Cheers Giuseppe. Am 19.06.2012 um 06:45 schrieb Paul Wilson: > Cost I think has as much to do with displacement as length. The > heavier the boat, the more materials going in to it and the larger the > sail area to make it move. As an example, a Westsail 32 would probably > cost a lot more to rig and fit out than a Swain Origami 36. > > Making a boat a ketch adds a lot to the cost. More spars, fittings and > rigging. I wouldn't consider a ketch unless I was going well over 50 > feet. Handling a 40 footer single-handed is no big deal. No harder when > offshore than a 36 footer. Slab and roller reefing makes it easy. Some > say handling a larger boat offshore is easier because it moves around > less. I tend to agree as long as nothing breaks and up to a > limit....say 45 feet. I know of a 65 year old who single-hands a 65 > footer but he is ex-special forces and much tougher than me. > > In my opinion, docking, close maneuvering, and handling a large anchor > is the real restriction when it comes to boat size, not sailing it. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 19/06/2012 2:35 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Perhaps the cube of the ratio or fractional increase in length. > > > > If 36' has a cost of X, then 40' would have a cost of 1.37 X, or 37% more expensive. > > > > Good question on being able to handle a boat singlehanded. Some would recommend breaking up the sail plan, as a ketch perhaps, to reduce the handling loads. Others would suggest bigger winches with a larger reduction, but that just means cranking for longer to get the sails where they need to be. Others might suggest powered winches. > > > > I would appreciate hearing other's opinions on those options. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: gary.lucas@... > > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:06:00 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the difference in length! > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > From: Maxime Camirand > > > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > > > > > Hi again group, > > > > > > > > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build > > > > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > > > > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see > > > > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make > > > > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow > > > > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a > > > > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more > > > > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > > > > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > > > > > > > > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Max > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28401|28390|2012-06-19 15:09:11|brentswain38|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|There are far too many cruising dreams lost, to too big a boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Perhaps the cube of the ratio or fractional increase in length. > > If 36' has a cost of X, then 40' would have a cost of 1.37 X, or 37% more expensive. > > Good question on being able to handle a boat singlehanded. Some would recommend breaking up the sail plan, as a ketch perhaps, to reduce the handling loads. Others would suggest bigger winches with a larger reduction, but that just means cranking for longer to get the sails where they need to be. Others might suggest powered winches. > > I would appreciate hearing other's opinions on those options. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gary.lucas@... > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:06:00 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the difference in length! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > From: Maxime Camirand > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > Hi again group, > > > > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build > > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see > > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make > > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow > > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a > > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more > > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > > > > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28402|28371|2012-06-19 15:13:03|brentswain38|Re: sandblasting|If your primer is good, there shouldn't be much sandblasting to do. I didn't do any, and my paint is mostly as good as when I put it on, 28 years ago. The trick is to get the boat done and painted quickly. If it looks like it is going to take longer than the primer will last, a second coat of primer during the building process is a good idea. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Thank you very much for this post. Your's too Brent about paint coats.   > > I was going to pick up some TSP, trisodium phosphate and test spraying it on with a hand sprayer after wet sand blasting. I read the ph needs to be 9 and it will largely prevent flash rust. Has anyone tried this?  >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Wilson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 3:49 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > >   > There are a couple of epoxy primers specifically made to penetrate > marginal rust and rust blush after wet blasting. I know Altex > (Carboline) makes one and also PPG (Ameron) makes one. They are > relatively cheap since a little goes a long way. They are very runny > (like water) but they keep their wet film on any sharp corners where a > thinned epoxy may not. You can see it almost wick in to the steel. > Really good stuff and it is what the oil rig and commercial guys use > after wet blasting. > > Altra Lock 576 known as Rustbond in US. Carboline bought out Altex. > > http://www.altexcoatings.co.nz/vdb/document/1267 > > http://www.carboline.com/products/product-brands/products-by-brand/product-details/?brand=Rustbond&product=0922 > > Amerlock Sealer. Available worldwide through PPG (Ameron/ Amercoat) > > http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/Sealer_PDS_AI.pdf > > Cheers, Paul > > On 19/06/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Yes wet blasting works in hot dry weather. You get a rust blush, but > > thinned epoxy will soak thru it and hold. Friends did that in > > California with good results. They went behind the blaster and wiped > > it dry with rags. Another friend did that in a marina yard at night > > where any blasting was not allowed. No one noticed. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28403|28390|2012-06-19 16:18:08|Maxime Camirand|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|" There are far too many cruising dreams lost, to too big a boat. " This is what I'm most afraid of. A 36 has more than enough living space for me. The sole reason I am considering the 40' is that I think the extra space might make it easier to earn a living afloat, and cruise indefinitely. I'm 28 and would like to cruise as a way of life, rather than as a parenthesis in my career. I've been poor and didn't like it, so I need some way to earn more than I spend. Regards, Max On 19 June 2012 15:09, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > There are far too many cruising dreams lost, to too big a boat. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28404|28371|2012-06-19 17:02:25|martin demers|Re: sandblasting|Brent, if not possible to sandblast, will disc sanding do the job? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:13:02 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting If your primer is good, there shouldn't be much sandblasting to do. I didn't do any, and my paint is mostly as good as when I put it on, 28 years ago. The trick is to get the boat done and painted quickly. If it looks like it is going to take longer than the primer will last, a second coat of primer during the building process is a good idea. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Thank you very much for this post. Your's too Brent about paint coats. � > > I was going to pick up some TSP, trisodium phosphate and test spraying it on with a hand sprayer after wet sand blasting. I read the ph needs to be 9 and it will largely prevent flash rust. Has anyone tried this?� > � > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Wilson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 3:49 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > > � > There are a couple of epoxy primers specifically made to penetrate > marginal rust and rust blush after wet blasting. I know Altex > (Carboline) makes one and also PPG (Ameron) makes one. They are > relatively cheap since a little goes a long way. They are very runny > (like water) but they keep their wet film on any sharp corners where a > thinned epoxy may not. You can see it almost wick in to the steel. > Really good stuff and it is what the oil rig and commercial guys use > after wet blasting. > > Altra Lock 576 known as Rustbond in US. Carboline bought out Altex. > > http://www.altexcoatings.co.nz/vdb/document/1267 > > http://www.carboline.com/products/product-brands/products-by-brand/product-details/?brand=Rustbond&product=0922 > > Amerlock Sealer. Available worldwide through PPG (Ameron/ Amercoat) > > http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/Sealer_PDS_AI.pdf > > Cheers, Paul > > On 19/06/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Yes wet blasting works in hot dry weather. You get a rust blush, but > > thinned epoxy will soak thru it and hold. Friends did that in > > California with good results. They went behind the blaster and wiped > > it dry with rags. Another friend did that in a marina yard at night > > where any blasting was not allowed. No one noticed. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28405|28390|2012-06-19 17:31:25|Maxime Camirand|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Guiseppe, Paul, Matt, Thank you for your thoughts on cost and rig/boat handling. I'm sold on a junk rig, for the record, so reefing is unlikely to be a problem. I briefly owned a Colvin Gazelle, had drawn up a new sail plan for it, and started making sails. I found it difficult to accomodate a multi-masted rig without having a sail so far aft that it would get in the way of the windvane. I managed to do it, but between windvane clearance and clearance between the sails, I ended up with a fairly tall rig anyway, in order to get enough sail area. However, a multi-masted rig may be the only way to avoid having many winches on board, for raising or trimming the sails. I plan on making all of the gear I can, for the boat, including the sails. I don't plan on having refrigeration, pressure domestic water, hot domestic water, autopilot, radar, etc. This will help keep costs down, though of course nothing is free. More expensive just means I take longer to do it. My work schedule is 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, at a good salary (I work 84 hours minimum per work week). I'll be able to put 2 weeks of full-time labor into the boat per month, if I focus. I expect the limiting factor to be my labor, since I should be making enough money to not run out of materials in each 2-week work sprint. I'm not worried about manoeuvering the boat. My job is to manoeuver a boat over an order of magnitude bigger (http://bit.ly/NfPmze), so this is like a dinghy to me. Regards, Max On 19 June 2012 12:42, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > Costs ... well. > > In terms of sail-handling You are mostly limited by the hoisting weight of Your sails, for sheeting is easily done without load/wind in the very sail to sheet, so You'd luff a bit, pull it in and go back on course ... I suppose You wouldn't race her round bouys gaining fractions of seconds. > > Fractioned sailplans are a good idea when short in lead/ballast/draft, for You avoid too much height of the load over deck, plus You'd be able to balance Your sailplan much easier for the very course needed, plus the reduction of weight per sail is reasonably, plus You have a lot more ways to shorten sail. > > One more mast, one more boom, some more standing and running rigging, quite a number of toggles and terminals to monitor, though. > > Depends on where You are, some place there are masts second hand to get for next to nothing, and "traditional" terminals might be some work, but they don't break out of the blue (what pressed stainless does all the time). > > Ketches are constantly ill-reputed when it comes to windward performance, what I don't second. > A meticulously trimmed Ketch sails way better windward than an average Marconi Tupperware under "performance" production rig, no matter reefed or not. > > "... > Some say handling a larger boat offshore is easier because it moves around less. > ..." > > The "rocking around" isn't a thing of weight or length alone, but also thing of hullform, metacenter, form of the keel, load distribution and some more factors. > > "... > , docking, close maneuvering, and handling a large anchor > is the real restriction when it comes to boat size, not sailing it > ..." > > Handling a large anchor, well, this might be limiting, but You have to haul Your Dinghy as well, so as a singlehander You need some sort of hauling boom/device anyway. > > When it comes to close maneuvering and docking, things are a mere question of training and really knowing Your boat and how it will behave (or not behave at all, in case of backing, for example). > > Add a bit of ancient seamanship, I for example prefer to first ly on a roadstead even being in company in an unknown place, then all this is half the threat. > > With a long keeled traditional I get some help and a pusher/tug before docking in an unknown or difficult place anyway, for those simply aren't made for reverse parking short- or singlehanded, but even sluggish monsters do behave in a reproducable (while funny) way, and to learn to turn her on the spot is nevertheless possible. > > Some people tend to put in a lot of freaky technic like lateral thrusters to enable any intended direction to go by push-button, but keeping those in working condition is by far more costly than a tug/pusher once in a while. > > Same would be my opinion concerning electrical winches or even hydraulic ones. > > You better take the costs to ketch Your rig once than stick with urgently needed freaky gear to maintain all the time. > > 0.02 ct from my side. > > Cheers Giuseppe. > > > > > Am 19.06.2012 um 06:45 schrieb Paul Wilson: > >> Cost I think has as much to do with displacement as length. The >> heavier the boat, the more materials going in to it and the larger the >> sail area to make it move. As an example, a Westsail 32 would probably >> cost a lot more to rig and fit out than a Swain Origami 36. >> >> Making a boat a ketch adds a lot to the cost. More spars, fittings and >> rigging. I wouldn't consider a ketch unless I was going well over 50 >> feet. Handling a 40 footer single-handed is no big deal. No harder when >> offshore than a 36 footer. Slab and roller reefing makes it easy. Some >> say handling a larger boat offshore is easier because it moves around >> less. I tend to agree as long as nothing breaks and up to a >> limit....say 45 feet. I know of a 65 year old who single-hands a 65 >> footer but he is ex-special forces and much tougher than me. >> >> In my opinion, docking, close maneuvering, and handling a large anchor >> is the real restriction when it comes to boat size, not sailing it. >> >> Cheers, Paul >> >> On 19/06/2012 2:35 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: >> > >> > Perhaps the cube of the ratio or fractional increase in length. >> > >> > If 36' has a cost of X, then 40' would have a cost of 1.37 X, or 37% more expensive. >> > >> > Good question on being able to handle a boat singlehanded. Some would recommend breaking up the sail plan, as a ketch perhaps, to reduce the handling loads. Others would suggest bigger winches with a larger reduction, but that just means cranking for longer to get the sails where they need to be. Others might suggest powered winches. >> > >> > I would appreciate hearing other's opinions on those options. >> > >> > Matt >> > >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > From: gary.lucas@... >> > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:06:00 -0400 >> > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the difference in length! >> > >> > >> > >> > Gary H. Lucas >> > >> > >> > >> > From: Maxime Camirand >> > >> > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM >> > >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi again group, >> > >> > >> > >> > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build >> > >> > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put >> > >> > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see >> > >> > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make >> > >> > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow >> > >> > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a >> > >> > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more >> > >> > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails >> > >> > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. >> > >> > >> > >> > Anyone willing to show me their boat? >> > >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Max >> > >> > >> > >> > Gary H. Lucas >> > >> > >> > >> > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ >> > >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 28406|28390|2012-06-19 17:50:50|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Too big a boat ... Living afloat is one thing. Sharing Your intimate tiny little floating home every other fourtnight with another bunch of paying tourists is a different thing. I won't do this again for two month, not to mention for good. Do You intend something special for the "earning" part on Your ... dinghi? Or just tourism? Cheers G_B Am 19.06.2012 um 22:17 schrieb Maxime Camirand: > " There are far too many cruising dreams lost, to too big a boat. " > > This is what I'm most afraid of. A 36 has more than enough living space for > me. The sole reason I am considering the 40' is that I think the extra > space might make it easier to earn a living afloat, and cruise > indefinitely. I'm 28 and would like to cruise as a way of life, rather than > as a parenthesis in my career. > > I've been poor and didn't like it, so I need some way to earn more than I > spend. > > Regards, > Max > . > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28407|28390|2012-06-19 18:10:03|Maxime Camirand|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Hi Guiseppe, I don't plan on doing week-long charters with yachties in a "crewed charter". I would have a hard time being someone's servant. I've thought of many possibilities for making money afloat. Day-trips or short-term vacations for diving, salvage diving, welding repair work, sailmaking, trading, giving live-aboard navigation courses, writing. Maybe none of this will work and I'll have to stop once in a while to go to work on a ship to refill my bank account. Regards, Max On 19 June 2012 17:50, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > ** > > > Too big a boat ... > > Living afloat is one thing. > > Sharing Your intimate tiny little floating home every other fourtnight > with another bunch of paying tourists is a different thing. > > I won't do this again for two month, not to mention for good. > > Do You intend something special for the "earning" part on Your ... dinghi? > Or just tourism? > > Cheers G_B > > Am 19.06.2012 um 22:17 schrieb Maxime Camirand: > > > > " There are far too many cruising dreams lost, to too big a boat. " > > > > This is what I'm most afraid of. A 36 has more than enough living space > for > > me. The sole reason I am considering the 40' is that I think the extra > > space might make it easier to earn a living afloat, and cruise > > indefinitely. I'm 28 and would like to cruise as a way of life, rather > than > > as a parenthesis in my career. > > > > I've been poor and didn't like it, so I need some way to earn more than I > > spend. > > > > Regards, > > Max > > . > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28408|28390|2012-06-19 18:14:12|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Junk rigg. So You did already the thinking part of freestanding masts I suppose. Did You consider a freestanding wishbone rigg, fractioned in two masts? By far the easiest rig I ever sailed shorthanded (on a 44 feet boat). Ninety seconds from hoisting the first sail (without a winch) to fixing course on the vane under two welltrimmed and neatly sheeted sails. No chafe, tacking by turning the wheel (only), gybing dito (almost, I'm a timid gyber) and some advantages more, from reefing to trimming to only sparse gear needed at all - beside the masts/partners, though. Am 19.06.2012 um 23:31 schrieb Maxime Camirand: > Guiseppe, Paul, Matt, > > Thank you for your thoughts on cost and rig/boat handling. I'm sold on > a junk rig, for the record, so reefing is unlikely to be a problem. I > briefly owned a Colvin Gazelle, had drawn up a new sail plan for it, > and started making sails. I found it difficult to accomodate a > multi-masted rig without having a sail so far aft that it would get in > the way of the windvane. I managed to do it, but between windvane > clearance and clearance between the sails, I ended up with a fairly > tall rig anyway, in order to get enough sail area. However, a > multi-masted rig may be the only way to avoid having many winches on > board, for raising or trimming the sails. > > I plan on making all of the gear I can, for the boat, including the > sails. I don't plan on having refrigeration, pressure domestic water, > hot domestic water, autopilot, radar, etc. This will help keep costs > down, though of course nothing is free. More expensive just means I > take longer to do it. My work schedule is 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, at > a good salary (I work 84 hours minimum per work week). I'll be able to > put 2 weeks of full-time labor into the boat per month, if I focus. I > expect the limiting factor to be my labor, since I should be making > enough money to not run out of materials in each 2-week work sprint. > > I'm not worried about manoeuvering the boat. My job is to manoeuver a > boat over an order of magnitude bigger (http://bit.ly/NfPmze), so this > is like a dinghy to me. > > Regards, > Max > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28409|28390|2012-06-19 18:20:06|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Sounds good. What is wrong in signing on once in a while, if the other ideas shouldn't bring in enough? I'd rather sign on and keep my homeboat for me. Already tried charter-drillsgt., though. G_B Am 20.06.2012 um 00:09 schrieb Maxime Camirand: > Hi Guiseppe, > > I don't plan on doing week-long charters with yachties in a "crewed > charter". I would have a hard time being someone's servant. > > I've thought of many possibilities for making money afloat. Day-trips or > short-term vacations for diving, salvage diving, welding repair work, > sailmaking, trading, giving live-aboard navigation courses, writing. Maybe > none of this will work and I'll have to stop once in a while to go to work > on a ship to refill my bank account. > > Regards, > Max > ------------------------------------ | 28410|28390|2012-06-19 20:41:58|Paul Wilson|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|I totally forgot about the ketch/windvane problem. For me, this is a major argument against a ketch. My only other thought when trying to decide on size of boat is that other than cost, more cruises offshore have been stopped by an unhappy partner than probably anything else. I think that is why you see so many couples in big boats now. It was amazing how much smaller my 36 footer got when I got married. Single-handing is one solution :). Cheers, Paul On 20/06/2012 9:31 a.m., Maxime Camirand wrote: > > Guiseppe, Paul, Matt, > > Thank you for your thoughts on cost and rig/boat handling. I'm sold on > a junk rig, for the record, so reefing is unlikely to be a problem. I > briefly owned a Colvin Gazelle, had drawn up a new sail plan for it, > and started making sails. I found it difficult to accomodate a > multi-masted rig without having a sail so far aft that it would get in > the way of the windvane. > | 28411|28371|2012-06-19 21:02:49|Paul Wilson|Re: sandblasting|I just posted the paint specs in the Files/ Paul Wilson's File Folder. Cheers, Paul On 20/06/2012 1:00 a.m., Doug Jackson wrote: > > Thanks Paul, yes please post those paint schedules, I sure I'm not the > only one that will appreciate you doing all of the research. > > Doug > SVSeeker.com > | 28412|28371|2012-06-19 21:24:43|Doug Jackson|Re: sandblasting|Thank you Paul.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting   I just posted the paint specs in the Files/ Paul Wilson's File Folder. Cheers, Paul On 20/06/2012 1:00 a.m., Doug Jackson wrote: > > Thanks Paul, yes please post those paint schedules, I sure I'm not the > only one that will appreciate you doing all of the research. > > Doug > SVSeeker.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28413|28390|2012-06-20 08:02:28|Maxime Camirand|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Hi Guiseppe, No, I hadn't thought of a wishbone rig. What is the advantage over a junk rig? One thing I especially like about the junk rig is the large group of helpful people and information available on the internet. Like most people who decide to build a boat, I've been reading about rigs and thinking about what I want for a long time. The junk rig has been my "conclusion", and now I've freed myself to think about other matters. I was considering welding on the hardware necessary for 1 or 2 different rigs, in case the junk doesn't work out. Maybe too much trouble. By the way, what did you mean by "charter drill sergeant"? Regards, Max On 19 June 2012 18:14, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > ** > > > Junk rigg. > > So You did already the thinking part of freestanding masts I suppose. > > Did You consider a freestanding wishbone rigg, fractioned in two masts? > > By far the easiest rig I ever sailed shorthanded (on a 44 feet boat). > > Ninety seconds from hoisting the first sail (without a winch) to fixing > course on the vane under two welltrimmed and neatly sheeted sails. > > No chafe, tacking by turning the wheel (only), gybing dito (almost, I'm a > timid gyber) and some advantages more, from reefing to trimming to only > sparse gear needed at all - beside the masts/partners, though. > > Am 19.06.2012 um 23:31 schrieb Maxime Camirand: > > > > Guiseppe, Paul, Matt, > > > > Thank you for your thoughts on cost and rig/boat handling. I'm sold on > > a junk rig, for the record, so reefing is unlikely to be a problem. I > > briefly owned a Colvin Gazelle, had drawn up a new sail plan for it, > > and started making sails. I found it difficult to accomodate a > > multi-masted rig without having a sail so far aft that it would get in > > the way of the windvane. I managed to do it, but between windvane > > clearance and clearance between the sails, I ended up with a fairly > > tall rig anyway, in order to get enough sail area. However, a > > multi-masted rig may be the only way to avoid having many winches on > > board, for raising or trimming the sails. > > > > I plan on making all of the gear I can, for the boat, including the > > sails. I don't plan on having refrigeration, pressure domestic water, > > hot domestic water, autopilot, radar, etc. This will help keep costs > > down, though of course nothing is free. More expensive just means I > > take longer to do it. My work schedule is 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, at > > a good salary (I work 84 hours minimum per work week). I'll be able to > > put 2 weeks of full-time labor into the boat per month, if I focus. I > > expect the limiting factor to be my labor, since I should be making > > enough money to not run out of materials in each 2-week work sprint. > > > > I'm not worried about manoeuvering the boat. My job is to manoeuver a > > boat over an order of magnitude bigger (http://bit.ly/NfPmze), so this > > is like a dinghy to me. > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28414|28390|2012-06-20 08:35:45|Maxime Camirand|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Hi Paul, The problem is letting oneself be stopped by an unhappy partner :) There's a good book written by a Czech rogue with a junk-rigged boat he bought half-built. My favorite part is near the beginning, when he describes how the boat got to him. I paraphrase very loosely: "The boat was built by a first guy, whose wife eventually objected. He sold the hull to a second guy, whose wife would have none of it, so it ended up rusting in a yard for years. Then I bought it, but my wife would have none of it either, so I got rid of the wife and moved to the yard to finish the boat" Regards, Max On 19 June 2012 20:40, Paul Wilson wrote: > ** > > > I totally forgot about the ketch/windvane problem. For me, this is a > major argument against a ketch. > > My only other thought when trying to decide on size of boat is that > other than cost, more cruises offshore have been stopped by an unhappy > partner than probably anything else. I think that is why you see so > many couples in big boats now. It was amazing how much smaller my 36 > footer got when I got married. Single-handing is one solution :). > > Cheers, Paul > > > On 20/06/2012 9:31 a.m., Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > > Guiseppe, Paul, Matt, > > > > Thank you for your thoughts on cost and rig/boat handling. I'm sold on > > a junk rig, for the record, so reefing is unlikely to be a problem. I > > briefly owned a Colvin Gazelle, had drawn up a new sail plan for it, > > and started making sails. I found it difficult to accomodate a > > multi-masted rig without having a sail so far aft that it would get in > > the way of the windvane. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28415|28371|2012-06-20 09:20:11|haidan|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|Hey Max. I've got a 36', liveaboard full time, also 28. One side of the cabin is a 8 foot workbench, stores all my tools, have the alternator and vise out in the cockpit I don't really feel limited in space and I have yet to even build in the space under the cock pit for storage. If I were planning on having a metal lathe ro something like that then I'd need a bigger boat or scrap the head but other than that in spacious enough, These boats are big 36 footers. If I were planning a multimasted rig I probably would have a center cockpit setup like Steve on Silas Crosby as I would give more room for the mizzen. My main has a 42' luff and 14' foot and I wouldn't really want to handle anything bigger with full sail in a good blow I can handle it just, anyone smaller I have with me can't pull that main in (6:1 purchase) and maybe I should put some more blocks in but it's already a 50'+ main sheet as it is. Which brings me to junks, I've never sailed them, the one person I do know who has one, a 40' Colvin Doxy, wishes they had a boat they could sail by themselves, too much stuff to do, too much rigging and line.Junk rigs seem like such a pain in the ass, easy to reef but slab reefing ain't that hard either, do without the roach and the battens and raising a sail isn't really all that bad, with solid handrails walking up the the mast isn't the terrifying experience it can be on some boats and you can even put in granny bars around the mast if you want (no offense to you old fogies out there). With the twin keels I tend to stay the fuck away from marinas quite successfully so handling a boat in close quarters is less of an issue and that is the only time I've really had trouble maneuvering my boat is in tight spots under power especially backing up, and usually more concerned about the other boats than mine.| 28416|28390|2012-06-20 09:29:12|haidan|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|I also got the rig together for under three grand. Mast, stays, turnbuckles, lines, roller furler, sails, everything. I doubt you'd find the material for a new set of junk sails for that and used junk sails are hard to come by, used bermuda sails are everywhere and cheap cheap cheap and labour saving, ever sewn up a some sail before it's a pain in the ass you gotta roll up the whole section and pass it through the arm of the sewing machine whilst keeping the overlap of the fabric nice and even somehow. Or you can go get a pair of sails that'll last you a few years for 300 bucks, how much is your time worth? especially when you've got a million other things to do on the boat?| 28417|28390|2012-06-20 10:46:45|James Pronk|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|One thing I especially like about the junk rig is the large group of helpful people and information available on the internet.   They need to be helpful, Junk rig folk need all the help they can get! James   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28418|28390|2012-06-20 15:20:24|brentswain38|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|The bigger the boat the more you spend, so the more you have to earn. I figured out as a teenager, that there are two ways to get by. Either make a lot of money, or find ways to make money less relevant in one's life. Choosing the latter course has let me semi retire in my mid 20's ,no regrets. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > " There are far too many cruising dreams lost, to too big a boat. " > > This is what I'm most afraid of. A 36 has more than enough living space for > me. The sole reason I am considering the 40' is that I think the extra > space might make it easier to earn a living afloat, and cruise > indefinitely. I'm 28 and would like to cruise as a way of life, rather than > as a parenthesis in my career. > > I've been poor and didn't like it, so I need some way to earn more than I > spend. > > Regards, > Max > > On 19 June 2012 15:09, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > There are far too many cruising dreams lost, to too big a boat. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28419|28371|2012-06-20 15:22:40|brentswain38|Re: sandblasting|Moitessier ground his Joshua with a rigid disc , initially, but ended up sandblasting, eventually. Disc grinding is a temporary measure. You would want to use a rigid grinding disc, as a sanding disc would leave a surface too smooth to hold paint. With rigid disc grinding, this is also the case, but slightly less so. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > if not possible to sandblast, will disc sanding do the job? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:13:02 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If your primer is good, there shouldn't be much sandblasting to do. I didn't do any, and my paint is mostly as good as when I put it on, 28 years ago. The trick is to get the boat done and painted quickly. If it looks like it is going to take longer than the primer will last, a second coat of primer during the building process is a good idea. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > > > Thank you very much for this post. Your's too Brent about paint coats.  > > > > > > I was going to pick up some TSP, trisodium phosphate and test spraying it on with a hand sprayer after wet sand blasting. I read the ph needs to be 9 and it will largely prevent flash rust. Has anyone tried this? > > >  > > > Doug > > > SVSeeker.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Paul Wilson > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 3:49 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > > > > > > > >  > > > There are a couple of epoxy primers specifically made to penetrate > > > marginal rust and rust blush after wet blasting. I know Altex > > > (Carboline) makes one and also PPG (Ameron) makes one. They are > > > relatively cheap since a little goes a long way. They are very runny > > > (like water) but they keep their wet film on any sharp corners where a > > > thinned epoxy may not. You can see it almost wick in to the steel. > > > Really good stuff and it is what the oil rig and commercial guys use > > > after wet blasting. > > > > > > Altra Lock 576 known as Rustbond in US. Carboline bought out Altex. > > > > > > http://www.altexcoatings.co.nz/vdb/document/1267 > > > > > > http://www.carboline.com/products/product-brands/products-by-brand/product-details/?brand=Rustbond&product=0922 > > > > > > Amerlock Sealer. Available worldwide through PPG (Ameron/ Amercoat) > > > > > > http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/Sealer_PDS_AI.pdf > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > On 19/06/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > Yes wet blasting works in hot dry weather. You get a rust blush, but > > > > thinned epoxy will soak thru it and hold. Friends did that in > > > > California with good results. They went behind the blaster and wiped > > > > it dry with rags. Another friend did that in a marina yard at night > > > > where any blasting was not allowed. No one noticed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28420|28390|2012-06-20 15:34:50|brentswain38|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|I certainly don't envy the guys I've known, who gave up the dream, for a controlling wife, nor the lives they ended up living. They used to call them "Lucky" They "USED" to. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > The problem is letting oneself be stopped by an unhappy partner :) > There's a good book written by a Czech rogue with a junk-rigged boat he > bought half-built. My favorite part is near the beginning, when he > describes how the boat got to him. I paraphrase very loosely: "The boat was > built by a first guy, whose wife eventually objected. He sold the hull to a > second guy, whose wife would have none of it, so it ended up rusting in a > yard for years. Then I bought it, but my wife would have none of it either, > so I got rid of the wife and moved to the yard to finish the boat" > > Regards, > Max > > On 19 June 2012 20:40, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I totally forgot about the ketch/windvane problem. For me, this is a > > major argument against a ketch. > > > > My only other thought when trying to decide on size of boat is that > > other than cost, more cruises offshore have been stopped by an unhappy > > partner than probably anything else. I think that is why you see so > > many couples in big boats now. It was amazing how much smaller my 36 > > footer got when I got married. Single-handing is one solution :). > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > On 20/06/2012 9:31 a.m., Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > > > > Guiseppe, Paul, Matt, > > > > > > Thank you for your thoughts on cost and rig/boat handling. I'm sold on > > > a junk rig, for the record, so reefing is unlikely to be a problem. I > > > briefly owned a Colvin Gazelle, had drawn up a new sail plan for it, > > > and started making sails. I found it difficult to accomodate a > > > multi-masted rig without having a sail so far aft that it would get in > > > the way of the windvane. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28421|28390|2012-06-20 15:42:05|brentswain38|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Great posts, Haidan and and James. Junk rigs are horrendously complicated , chafe prone, and time consuming, a hair brained way to get a boat sailing. They go to windward at warp speed, speed only attainable by warping the truth. I've sailed circles around junk rigs , only to hear their owners later bragging that they sailed circles around me, while showing a video of us in the macaroni rigs sailing circles around them, Takes a lot of self delusion, to keep believing in junk rigs. I'd suggest you weld in a few chain plates and a mast support, for when you give up on the rig. People I know, who switched from junk to Macaroni rigs, all say they would never go back to a junk rig. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > > One thing I especially like about the junk rig is the large group of > helpful people and information available on the internet. > >   > They need to be helpful, Junk rig folk need all the help they can get! > James >   > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28422|28390|2012-06-20 17:23:15|chris123|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|If it were me I would break the sail plan down to make it as efficient and fool proof as possible for one person to handle. More winches, more expense more maintenance more expense...:) Larger winches come with the same formula but with an additional cost factor...so the number of sails and their size is what whats relevant to me as I can use less expensive smaller winches and keep them all the same size. Maintenance and spares then becomes a simple matter. Some will be over sized for a specific function on a Ketch rig but that's OK...as it keeps things simple. Simple is important to me at least. /ch On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > Perhaps the cube of the ratio or fractional increase in length. > > If 36' has a cost of X, then 40' would have a cost of 1.37 X, or 37% more expensive. > > Good question on being able to handle a boat singlehanded.  Some would recommend breaking up the sail plan, as a ketch perhaps, to reduce the handling loads.   Others would suggest bigger winches with a larger reduction, but that just means cranking for longer to get the sails where they need to be.   Others might suggest powered winches. > > I would appreciate hearing other's opinions on those options. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gary.lucas@... > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:06:00 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >      The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the difference in length! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > From: Maxime Camirand > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > Hi again group, > > > > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build > > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see > > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make > > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow > > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a > > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more > > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > > > > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- /ch | 28423|28390|2012-06-20 17:30:17|chris123|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Maxime.... Glad to hear that you are considering a junk rig for the vessel..there is a yahoo group for this as well and there is a seperate organization on the web as well. Lots of talent on those lists as well. Its my favorite rig but dont push it much as each has their limitations. One thing to consider....the current tub you drive comes with an overkill engine, the one your building will probably be undersized as is the case for most sailboats. They work best moving forward as well....:) Dont underestimate handling a sailboat the mass of an Brend boat 36/40 in close quarters under power. Kick in tides and currents and you have your hands full. Paul is dead on with his comments on this issue. /ch On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Maxime Camirand wrote: > ** > > > Guiseppe, Paul, Matt, > > Thank you for your thoughts on cost and rig/boat handling. I'm sold on > a junk rig, for the record, so reefing is unlikely to be a problem. I > briefly owned a Colvin Gazelle, had drawn up a new sail plan for it, > and started making sails. I found it difficult to accomodate a > multi-masted rig without having a sail so far aft that it would get in > the way of the windvane. I managed to do it, but between windvane > clearance and clearance between the sails, I ended up with a fairly > tall rig anyway, in order to get enough sail area. However, a > multi-masted rig may be the only way to avoid having many winches on > board, for raising or trimming the sails. > > I plan on making all of the gear I can, for the boat, including the > sails. I don't plan on having refrigeration, pressure domestic water, > hot domestic water, autopilot, radar, etc. This will help keep costs > down, though of course nothing is free. More expensive just means I > take longer to do it. My work schedule is 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, at > a good salary (I work 84 hours minimum per work week). I'll be able to > put 2 weeks of full-time labor into the boat per month, if I focus. I > expect the limiting factor to be my labor, since I should be making > enough money to not run out of materials in each 2-week work sprint. > > I'm not worried about manoeuvering the boat. My job is to manoeuver a > boat over an order of magnitude bigger (http://bit.ly/NfPmze), so this > is like a dinghy to me. > > Regards, > Max > > > On 19 June 2012 12:42, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > Costs ... well. > > > > In terms of sail-handling You are mostly limited by the hoisting weight > of Your sails, for sheeting is easily done without load/wind in the very > sail to sheet, so You'd luff a bit, pull it in and go back on course ... I > suppose You wouldn't race her round bouys gaining fractions of seconds. > > > > Fractioned sailplans are a good idea when short in lead/ballast/draft, > for You avoid too much height of the load over deck, plus You'd be able to > balance Your sailplan much easier for the very course needed, plus the > reduction of weight per sail is reasonably, plus You have a lot more ways > to shorten sail. > > > > One more mast, one more boom, some more standing and running rigging, > quite a number of toggles and terminals to monitor, though. > > > > Depends on where You are, some place there are masts second hand to get > for next to nothing, and "traditional" terminals might be some work, but > they don't break out of the blue (what pressed stainless does all the time). > > > > Ketches are constantly ill-reputed when it comes to windward > performance, what I don't second. > > A meticulously trimmed Ketch sails way better windward than an average > Marconi Tupperware under "performance" production rig, no matter reefed or > not. > > > > "... > > Some say handling a larger boat offshore is easier because it moves > around less. > > ..." > > > > The "rocking around" isn't a thing of weight or length alone, but also > thing of hullform, metacenter, form of the keel, load distribution and some > more factors. > > > > "... > > , docking, close maneuvering, and handling a large anchor > > is the real restriction when it comes to boat size, not sailing it > > ..." > > > > Handling a large anchor, well, this might be limiting, but You have to > haul Your Dinghy as well, so as a singlehander You need some sort of > hauling boom/device anyway. > > > > When it comes to close maneuvering and docking, things are a mere > question of training and really knowing Your boat and how it will behave > (or not behave at all, in case of backing, for example). > > > > Add a bit of ancient seamanship, I for example prefer to first ly on a > roadstead even being in company in an unknown place, then all this is half > the threat. > > > > With a long keeled traditional I get some help and a pusher/tug before > docking in an unknown or difficult place anyway, for those simply aren't > made for reverse parking short- or singlehanded, but even sluggish monsters > do behave in a reproducable (while funny) way, and to learn to turn her on > the spot is nevertheless possible. > > > > Some people tend to put in a lot of freaky technic like lateral > thrusters to enable any intended direction to go by push-button, but > keeping those in working condition is by far more costly than a tug/pusher > once in a while. > > > > Same would be my opinion concerning electrical winches or even hydraulic > ones. > > > > You better take the costs to ketch Your rig once than stick with > urgently needed freaky gear to maintain all the time. > > > > 0.02 ct from my side. > > > > Cheers Giuseppe. > > > > > > > > > > Am 19.06.2012 um 06:45 schrieb Paul Wilson: > > > >> Cost I think has as much to do with displacement as length. The > >> heavier the boat, the more materials going in to it and the larger the > >> sail area to make it move. As an example, a Westsail 32 would probably > >> cost a lot more to rig and fit out than a Swain Origami 36. > >> > >> Making a boat a ketch adds a lot to the cost. More spars, fittings and > >> rigging. I wouldn't consider a ketch unless I was going well over 50 > >> feet. Handling a 40 footer single-handed is no big deal. No harder when > >> offshore than a 36 footer. Slab and roller reefing makes it easy. Some > >> say handling a larger boat offshore is easier because it moves around > >> less. I tend to agree as long as nothing breaks and up to a > >> limit....say 45 feet. I know of a 65 year old who single-hands a 65 > >> footer but he is ex-special forces and much tougher than me. > >> > >> In my opinion, docking, close maneuvering, and handling a large anchor > >> is the real restriction when it comes to boat size, not sailing it. > >> > >> Cheers, Paul > >> > >> On 19/06/2012 2:35 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > >> > > >> > Perhaps the cube of the ratio or fractional increase in length. > >> > > >> > If 36' has a cost of X, then 40' would have a cost of 1.37 X, or 37% > more expensive. > >> > > >> > Good question on being able to handle a boat singlehanded. Some would > recommend breaking up the sail plan, as a ketch perhaps, to reduce the > handling loads. Others would suggest bigger winches with a larger > reduction, but that just means cranking for longer to get the sails where > they need to be. Others might suggest powered winches. > >> > > >> > I would appreciate hearing other's opinions on those options. > >> > > >> > Matt > >> > > >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > From: gary.lucas@... > >> > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:06:00 -0400 > >> > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the > difference in length! > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Gary H. Lucas > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > From: Maxime Camirand > >> > > >> > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM > >> > > >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > > >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi again group, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build > >> > > >> > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > >> > > >> > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see > >> > > >> > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make > >> > > >> > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow > >> > > >> > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a > >> > > >> > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more > >> > > >> > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > >> > > >> > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > Max > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Gary H. Lucas > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------ > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28424|28390|2012-06-20 19:38:01|Maxime Camirand|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Hi guys, Lots of really good posts. The tub I drive has two engines totalling 4000 nominal HP (when it was new in '76, at least) and twin rudders that can move independently, so yeah, it offers more possibilities. I guess I sounded flippant about manoeuvering a 40', but I do realize that it's not easy. What I meant to say is that I understand the principles and limitations, and the prospect doesn't intimidate me in the same way that it might intimidate someone who has never shiphandled. It's like the difference between a Z-drive and the conventional tug I work on. In a Z-drive, you can do anything, but on a conventional tug, you have to understand your limitations and think ahead not to put yourself in a pickle, because you can get really screwed if you're not careful. Same with a big sailboat. It's a bitch to manoeuver, so you don't put yourself in trouble. Regarding the junk, I've heard people argue convincingly for and against them, including successful long-term ocean voyagers. What it comes down to is that for ME, the junk rig is part of my fantasy, so I want to try it out. However I've never been a zealot about anything, really, and so I'll follow Brent's advice and weld on what I need for a conventional rig ahead of time, in case I don't like the junk. No harm in trying, and after all, I'm building a boat as MY personal fantasy. It sounds like the 36 might be big enough for what I have in mind. That's why I want to go out West to see some boats in person. How much more would it cost to operate a 40, versus a 36? Regards, Max On 20 June 2012 17:30, chris123 wrote: > Maxime.... > > Glad to hear that you are considering a junk rig for the vessel..there is a > yahoo group for this as well and there is a seperate organization on the > web as well. Lots of talent on those lists as well. Its my favorite rig but > dont push it much as each has their limitations. > > One thing to consider....the current tub you drive comes with an overkill > engine, the one your building will probably be undersized as is the case > for most sailboats. They work best moving forward as well....:) Dont > underestimate handling a sailboat the mass of an Brend boat 36/40 in close > quarters under power. Kick in tides and currents and you have your hands > full. Paul is dead on with his comments on this issue. > > /ch > > > On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Maxime Camirand wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> Guiseppe, Paul, Matt, >> >> Thank you for your thoughts on cost and rig/boat handling. I'm sold on >> a junk rig, for the record, so reefing is unlikely to be a problem. I >> briefly owned a Colvin Gazelle, had drawn up a new sail plan for it, >> and started making sails. I found it difficult to accomodate a >> multi-masted rig without having a sail so far aft that it would get in >> the way of the windvane. I managed to do it, but between windvane >> clearance and clearance between the sails, I ended up with a fairly >> tall rig anyway, in order to get enough sail area. However, a >> multi-masted rig may be the only way to avoid having many winches on >> board, for raising or trimming the sails. >> >> I plan on making all of the gear I can, for the boat, including the >> sails. I don't plan on having refrigeration, pressure domestic water, >> hot domestic water, autopilot, radar, etc. This will help keep costs >> down, though of course nothing is free. More expensive just means I >> take longer to do it. My work schedule is 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, at >> a good salary (I work 84 hours minimum per work week). I'll be able to >> put 2 weeks of full-time labor into the boat per month, if I focus. I >> expect the limiting factor to be my labor, since I should be making >> enough money to not run out of materials in each 2-week work sprint. >> >> I'm not worried about manoeuvering the boat. My job is to manoeuver a >> boat over an order of magnitude bigger (http://bit.ly/NfPmze), so this >> is like a dinghy to me. >> >> Regards, >> Max >> >> >> On 19 June 2012 12:42, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: >> > Costs ... well. >> > >> > In terms of sail-handling You are mostly limited by the hoisting weight >> of Your sails, for sheeting is easily done without load/wind in the very >> sail to sheet, so You'd luff a bit, pull it in and go back on course ... I >> suppose You wouldn't race her round bouys gaining fractions of seconds. >> > >> > Fractioned sailplans are a good idea when short in lead/ballast/draft, >> for You avoid too much height of the load over deck, plus You'd be able to >> balance Your sailplan much easier for the very course needed, plus the >> reduction of weight per sail is reasonably, plus You have a lot more ways >> to shorten sail. >> > >> > One more mast, one more boom, some more standing and running rigging, >> quite a number of toggles and terminals to monitor, though. >> > >> > Depends on where You are, some place there are masts second hand to get >> for next to nothing, and "traditional" terminals might be some work, but >> they don't break out of the blue (what pressed stainless does all the time). >> > >> > Ketches are constantly ill-reputed when it comes to windward >> performance, what I don't second. >> > A meticulously trimmed Ketch sails way better windward than an average >> Marconi Tupperware under "performance" production rig, no matter reefed or >> not. >> > >> > "... >> > Some say handling a larger boat offshore is easier because it moves >> around less. >> > ..." >> > >> > The "rocking around" isn't a thing of weight or length alone, but also >> thing of hullform, metacenter, form of the keel, load distribution and some >> more factors. >> > >> > "... >> > , docking, close maneuvering, and handling a large anchor >> > is the real restriction when it comes to boat size, not sailing it >> > ..." >> > >> > Handling a large anchor, well, this might be limiting, but You have to >> haul Your Dinghy as well, so as a singlehander You need some sort of >> hauling boom/device anyway. >> > >> > When it comes to close maneuvering and docking, things are a mere >> question of training and really knowing Your boat and how it will behave >> (or not behave at all, in case of backing, for example). >> > >> > Add a bit of ancient seamanship, I for example prefer to first ly on a >> roadstead even being in company in an unknown place, then all this is half >> the threat. >> > >> > With a long keeled traditional I get some help and a pusher/tug before >> docking in an unknown or difficult place anyway, for those simply aren't >> made for reverse parking short- or singlehanded, but even sluggish monsters >> do behave in a reproducable (while funny) way, and to learn to turn her on >> the spot is nevertheless possible. >> > >> > Some people tend to put in a lot of freaky technic like lateral >> thrusters to enable any intended direction to go by push-button, but >> keeping those in working condition is by far more costly than a tug/pusher >> once in a while. >> > >> > Same would be my opinion concerning electrical winches or even hydraulic >> ones. >> > >> > You better take the costs to ketch Your rig once than stick with >> urgently needed freaky gear to maintain all the time. >> > >> > 0.02 ct from my side. >> > >> > Cheers Giuseppe. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Am 19.06.2012 um 06:45 schrieb Paul Wilson: >> > >> >> Cost I think has as much to do with displacement as length. The >> >> heavier the boat, the more materials going in to it and the larger the >> >> sail area to make it move. As an example, a Westsail 32 would probably >> >> cost a lot more to rig and fit out than a Swain Origami 36. >> >> >> >> Making a boat a ketch adds a lot to the cost. More spars, fittings and >> >> rigging. I wouldn't consider a ketch unless I was going well over 50 >> >> feet. Handling a 40 footer single-handed is no big deal. No harder when >> >> offshore than a 36 footer. Slab and roller reefing makes it easy. Some >> >> say handling a larger boat offshore is easier because it moves around >> >> less. I tend to agree as long as nothing breaks and up to a >> >> limit....say 45 feet. I know of a 65 year old who single-hands a 65 >> >> footer but he is ex-special forces and much tougher than me. >> >> >> >> In my opinion, docking, close maneuvering, and handling a large anchor >> >> is the real restriction when it comes to boat size, not sailing it. >> >> >> >> Cheers, Paul >> >> >> >> On 19/06/2012 2:35 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Perhaps the cube of the ratio or fractional increase in length. >> >> > >> >> > If 36' has a cost of X, then 40' would have a cost of 1.37 X, or 37% >> more expensive. >> >> > >> >> > Good question on being able to handle a boat singlehanded. Some would >> recommend breaking up the sail plan, as a ketch perhaps, to reduce the >> handling loads. Others would suggest bigger winches with a larger >> reduction, but that just means cranking for longer to get the sails where >> they need to be. Others might suggest powered winches. >> >> > >> >> > I would appreciate hearing other's opinions on those options. >> >> > >> >> > Matt >> >> > >> >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > From: gary.lucas@... >> >> > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:06:00 -0400 >> >> > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the >> difference in length! >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Gary H. Lucas >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > From: Maxime Camirand >> >> > >> >> > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM >> >> > >> >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > >> >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Hi again group, >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build >> >> > >> >> > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put >> >> > >> >> > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see >> >> > >> >> > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make >> >> > >> >> > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow >> >> > >> >> > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a >> >> > >> >> > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more >> >> > >> >> > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails >> >> > >> >> > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Anyone willing to show me their boat? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Regards, >> >> > >> >> > Max >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Gary H. Lucas >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------------ >> >> > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 28425|28390|2012-06-20 21:33:06|chris123|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|I like your attitude Max...one thing to consider wrt boat design. Beam is more important for liveable and usable space then length given the same height. Generally (and I dont know the difference between 36-40) the leap in magnitude from 30 to over 35 is a quantum one in terms of overall costs, gear, sails, parking....etc...etc...:) The jump from 36-40 in terms of annual costs is best left to the experts on this list, and there are many good people here. Its not just the build and initial outfitting costs, rather the perpeptuation of the dream which requires maintenance and repairs. The main issue in handling a sailboat in close quarters given the displacement of a 36-40 Brend boat is windage and tides and an undersized engine even if you have 50hp in the back with a suitable prop. These things are heavy, ie: mass and momentum, now throw in windage on the topsides and mast and you have to plan your moves. I had a 30ft CAL3-29 that could not backup worth a stink on a suitable two blade prop on a 30hp Atomic 4. Manouvering that boat in close quarters took a while to learn due to the massive prop walk, and with all fenders out as not to offend others boat poles handy. Its a learned skill and each boat requires renewal of that learning curve as they all handle differently. /ch On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Maxime Camirand wrote: > ** > > > Hi guys, > > Lots of really good posts. > > The tub I drive has two engines totalling 4000 nominal HP (when it was > new in '76, at least) and twin rudders that can move independently, so > yeah, it offers more possibilities. I guess I sounded flippant about > manoeuvering a 40', but I do realize that it's not easy. What I meant > to say is that I understand the principles and limitations, and the > prospect doesn't intimidate me in the same way that it might > intimidate someone who has never shiphandled. It's like the difference > between a Z-drive and the conventional tug I work on. In a Z-drive, > you can do anything, but on a conventional tug, you have to understand > your limitations and think ahead not to put yourself in a pickle, > because you can get really screwed if you're not careful. Same with a > big sailboat. It's a bitch to manoeuver, so you don't put yourself in > trouble. > > Regarding the junk, I've heard people argue convincingly for and > against them, including successful long-term ocean voyagers. What it > comes down to is that for ME, the junk rig is part of my fantasy, so I > want to try it out. However I've never been a zealot about anything, > really, and so I'll follow Brent's advice and weld on what I need for > a conventional rig ahead of time, in case I don't like the junk. No > harm in trying, and after all, I'm building a boat as MY personal > fantasy. > > It sounds like the 36 might be big enough for what I have in mind. > That's why I want to go out West to see some boats in person. How much > more would it cost to operate a 40, versus a 36? > > Regards, > Max > > > On 20 June 2012 17:30, chris123 wrote: > > Maxime.... > > > > Glad to hear that you are considering a junk rig for the vessel..there > is a > > yahoo group for this as well and there is a seperate organization on the > > web as well. Lots of talent on those lists as well. Its my favorite rig > but > > dont push it much as each has their limitations. > > > > One thing to consider....the current tub you drive comes with an overkill > > engine, the one your building will probably be undersized as is the case > > for most sailboats. They work best moving forward as well....:) Dont > > underestimate handling a sailboat the mass of an Brend boat 36/40 in > close > > quarters under power. Kick in tides and currents and you have your hands > > full. Paul is dead on with his comments on this issue. > > > > /ch > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Maxime Camirand >wrote: > > > >> ** > > >> > >> > >> Guiseppe, Paul, Matt, > >> > >> Thank you for your thoughts on cost and rig/boat handling. I'm sold on > >> a junk rig, for the record, so reefing is unlikely to be a problem. I > >> briefly owned a Colvin Gazelle, had drawn up a new sail plan for it, > >> and started making sails. I found it difficult to accomodate a > >> multi-masted rig without having a sail so far aft that it would get in > >> the way of the windvane. I managed to do it, but between windvane > >> clearance and clearance between the sails, I ended up with a fairly > >> tall rig anyway, in order to get enough sail area. However, a > >> multi-masted rig may be the only way to avoid having many winches on > >> board, for raising or trimming the sails. > >> > >> I plan on making all of the gear I can, for the boat, including the > >> sails. I don't plan on having refrigeration, pressure domestic water, > >> hot domestic water, autopilot, radar, etc. This will help keep costs > >> down, though of course nothing is free. More expensive just means I > >> take longer to do it. My work schedule is 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, at > >> a good salary (I work 84 hours minimum per work week). I'll be able to > >> put 2 weeks of full-time labor into the boat per month, if I focus. I > >> expect the limiting factor to be my labor, since I should be making > >> enough money to not run out of materials in each 2-week work sprint. > >> > >> I'm not worried about manoeuvering the boat. My job is to manoeuver a > >> boat over an order of magnitude bigger (http://bit.ly/NfPmze), so this > >> is like a dinghy to me. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Max > >> > >> > >> On 19 June 2012 12:42, Giuseppe Bergman > wrote: > >> > Costs ... well. > >> > > >> > In terms of sail-handling You are mostly limited by the hoisting > weight > >> of Your sails, for sheeting is easily done without load/wind in the very > >> sail to sheet, so You'd luff a bit, pull it in and go back on course > ... I > >> suppose You wouldn't race her round bouys gaining fractions of seconds. > >> > > >> > Fractioned sailplans are a good idea when short in lead/ballast/draft, > >> for You avoid too much height of the load over deck, plus You'd be able > to > >> balance Your sailplan much easier for the very course needed, plus the > >> reduction of weight per sail is reasonably, plus You have a lot more > ways > >> to shorten sail. > >> > > >> > One more mast, one more boom, some more standing and running rigging, > >> quite a number of toggles and terminals to monitor, though. > >> > > >> > Depends on where You are, some place there are masts second hand to > get > >> for next to nothing, and "traditional" terminals might be some work, but > >> they don't break out of the blue (what pressed stainless does all the > time). > >> > > >> > Ketches are constantly ill-reputed when it comes to windward > >> performance, what I don't second. > >> > A meticulously trimmed Ketch sails way better windward than an average > >> Marconi Tupperware under "performance" production rig, no matter reefed > or > >> not. > >> > > >> > "... > >> > Some say handling a larger boat offshore is easier because it moves > >> around less. > >> > ..." > >> > > >> > The "rocking around" isn't a thing of weight or length alone, but also > >> thing of hullform, metacenter, form of the keel, load distribution and > some > >> more factors. > >> > > >> > "... > >> > , docking, close maneuvering, and handling a large anchor > >> > is the real restriction when it comes to boat size, not sailing it > >> > ..." > >> > > >> > Handling a large anchor, well, this might be limiting, but You have to > >> haul Your Dinghy as well, so as a singlehander You need some sort of > >> hauling boom/device anyway. > >> > > >> > When it comes to close maneuvering and docking, things are a mere > >> question of training and really knowing Your boat and how it will behave > >> (or not behave at all, in case of backing, for example). > >> > > >> > Add a bit of ancient seamanship, I for example prefer to first ly on a > >> roadstead even being in company in an unknown place, then all this is > half > >> the threat. > >> > > >> > With a long keeled traditional I get some help and a pusher/tug before > >> docking in an unknown or difficult place anyway, for those simply aren't > >> made for reverse parking short- or singlehanded, but even sluggish > monsters > >> do behave in a reproducable (while funny) way, and to learn to turn her > on > >> the spot is nevertheless possible. > >> > > >> > Some people tend to put in a lot of freaky technic like lateral > >> thrusters to enable any intended direction to go by push-button, but > >> keeping those in working condition is by far more costly than a > tug/pusher > >> once in a while. > >> > > >> > Same would be my opinion concerning electrical winches or even > hydraulic > >> ones. > >> > > >> > You better take the costs to ketch Your rig once than stick with > >> urgently needed freaky gear to maintain all the time. > >> > > >> > 0.02 ct from my side. > >> > > >> > Cheers Giuseppe. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Am 19.06.2012 um 06:45 schrieb Paul Wilson: > >> > > >> >> Cost I think has as much to do with displacement as length. The > >> >> heavier the boat, the more materials going in to it and the larger > the > >> >> sail area to make it move. As an example, a Westsail 32 would > probably > >> >> cost a lot more to rig and fit out than a Swain Origami 36. > >> >> > >> >> Making a boat a ketch adds a lot to the cost. More spars, fittings > and > >> >> rigging. I wouldn't consider a ketch unless I was going well over 50 > >> >> feet. Handling a 40 footer single-handed is no big deal. No harder > when > >> >> offshore than a 36 footer. Slab and roller reefing makes it easy. > Some > >> >> say handling a larger boat offshore is easier because it moves around > >> >> less. I tend to agree as long as nothing breaks and up to a > >> >> limit....say 45 feet. I know of a 65 year old who single-hands a 65 > >> >> footer but he is ex-special forces and much tougher than me. > >> >> > >> >> In my opinion, docking, close maneuvering, and handling a large > anchor > >> >> is the real restriction when it comes to boat size, not sailing it. > >> >> > >> >> Cheers, Paul > >> >> > >> >> On 19/06/2012 2:35 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > Perhaps the cube of the ratio or fractional increase in length. > >> >> > > >> >> > If 36' has a cost of X, then 40' would have a cost of 1.37 X, or > 37% > >> more expensive. > >> >> > > >> >> > Good question on being able to handle a boat singlehanded. Some > would > >> recommend breaking up the sail plan, as a ketch perhaps, to reduce the > >> handling loads. Others would suggest bigger winches with a larger > >> reduction, but that just means cranking for longer to get the sails > where > >> they need to be. Others might suggest powered winches. > >> >> > > >> >> > I would appreciate hearing other's opinions on those options. > >> >> > > >> >> > Matt > >> >> > > >> >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > From: gary.lucas@... > >> >> > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:06:00 -0400 > >> >> > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the > >> difference in length! > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Gary H. Lucas > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > From: Maxime Camirand > >> >> > > >> >> > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM > >> >> > > >> >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > > >> >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi again group, > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to > build > >> >> > > >> >> > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > >> >> > > >> >> > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to > see > >> >> > > >> >> > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to > make > >> >> > > >> >> > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could > allow > >> >> > > >> >> > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space > for a > >> >> > > >> >> > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets > more > >> >> > > >> >> > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > >> >> > > >> >> > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Regards, > >> >> > > >> >> > Max > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Gary H. Lucas > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > ------------------------------------ > >> >> > > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------ > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28426|28371|2012-06-21 08:31:02|martin demers|Re: sandblasting|I did some disc sanding on my boat 2 years ago, and I could see under the paint that the boat had been grinded before and that it removed a certain thickness of metal. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 19:22:38 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting Moitessier ground his Joshua with a rigid disc , initially, but ended up sandblasting, eventually. Disc grinding is a temporary measure. You would want to use a rigid grinding disc, as a sanding disc would leave a surface too smooth to hold paint. With rigid disc grinding, this is also the case, but slightly less so. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > if not possible to sandblast, will disc sanding do the job? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:13:02 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If your primer is good, there shouldn't be much sandblasting to do. I didn't do any, and my paint is mostly as good as when I put it on, 28 years ago. The trick is to get the boat done and painted quickly. If it looks like it is going to take longer than the primer will last, a second coat of primer during the building process is a good idea. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > > > Thank you very much for this post. Your's too Brent about paint coats. � > > > > > > I was going to pick up some TSP, trisodium phosphate and test spraying it on with a hand sprayer after wet sand blasting. I read the ph needs to be 9 and it will largely prevent flash rust. Has anyone tried this?� > > > � > > > Doug > > > SVSeeker.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Paul Wilson > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 3:49 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > > > > > > > > � > > > There are a couple of epoxy primers specifically made to penetrate > > > marginal rust and rust blush after wet blasting. I know Altex > > > (Carboline) makes one and also PPG (Ameron) makes one. They are > > > relatively cheap since a little goes a long way. They are very runny > > > (like water) but they keep their wet film on any sharp corners where a > > > thinned epoxy may not. You can see it almost wick in to the steel. > > > Really good stuff and it is what the oil rig and commercial guys use > > > after wet blasting. > > > > > > Altra Lock 576 known as Rustbond in US. Carboline bought out Altex. > > > > > > http://www.altexcoatings.co.nz/vdb/document/1267 > > > > > > http://www.carboline.com/products/product-brands/products-by-brand/product-details/?brand=Rustbond&product=0922 > > > > > > Amerlock Sealer. Available worldwide through PPG (Ameron/ Amercoat) > > > > > > http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/Sealer_PDS_AI.pdf > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > On 19/06/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > Yes wet blasting works in hot dry weather. You get a rust blush, but > > > > thinned epoxy will soak thru it and hold. Friends did that in > > > > California with good results. They went behind the blaster and wiped > > > > it dry with rags. Another friend did that in a marina yard at night > > > > where any blasting was not allowed. No one noticed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28427|28390|2012-06-21 09:06:43|chris123|Re: Seeing a 40 and a 36|Thanks Gary...thats the formula I was looking for. /ch On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > ** > > > The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the difference > in length! > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: Maxime Camirand > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > Hi again group, > > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > > Regards, > Max > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28428|28390|2012-06-21 10:40:02|mauro gonzaga|Re: Seeing a 40 and a 36|To be more precise: the surface of the skin increases in square, the volume in cube ratio. Therefore the hull reasonably increases with the square and the length ratio whilst the internal, something in between square and cube. mauro ________________________________ From: chris123 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 Thanks Gary...thats the formula I was looking for. /ch On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > ** > > > The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the difference > in length! > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: Maxime Camirand > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > Hi again group, > > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > > Regards, > Max > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >  > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28429|28390|2012-06-21 11:24:30|chris123|Re: Seeing a 40 and a 36|the cube formula is easier to remember and for rough order of magnitude estimates its good enough, Thanks for the detailed explanation however. Suffice it to say that the difference between a 36 and 40 in terms of the costs is the cube of the difference. So the ratio in this case would be 4 cubed which is rather high...:) Best and kind regards /ch On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:39 AM, mauro gonzaga wrote: > ** > > > To be more precise: the surface of the skin increases in square, the > volume in cube ratio. > Therefore the hull reasonably increases with the square and the length > ratio whilst the internal, something in between square and cube. > mauro > > ________________________________ > From: chris123 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 3:00 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > Thanks Gary...thats the formula I was looking for. > > /ch > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Gary H. Lucas >wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the difference > > in length! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > From: Maxime Camirand > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > > > Hi again group, > > > > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build > > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see > > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make > > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow > > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a > > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more > > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > > > > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28430|28390|2012-06-21 14:03:04|brentswain38|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|My Arco 40 sheet winches cost me $150 each in a dock sale.With older boats being broken up, the market is flooded with cheap winches, far cheaper than having to rig two masts etc. I have done zero maintenance on mine , since buying them in 1995. Whatever winches you us, a massive overkill on size is always a good idea. Ditto my $100 roller furler. A sloop wit a roller furler is very simple to sail. Friends, who went from junk rig to Macaroni said the Macaroni rig was far easier to sail, and deal with. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > If it were me I would break the sail plan down to make it as efficient > and fool proof as possible for one person to handle. More winches, > more expense more maintenance more expense...:) Larger winches come > with the same formula but with an additional cost factor...so the > number of sails and their size is what whats relevant to me as I can > use less expensive smaller winches and keep them all the same size. > Maintenance and spares then becomes a simple matter. Some will be over > sized for a specific function on a Ketch rig but that's OK...as it > keeps things simple. Simple is important to me at least. > > /ch > > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > Perhaps the cube of the ratio or fractional increase in length. > > > > If 36' has a cost of X, then 40' would have a cost of 1.37 X, or 37% more expensive. > > > > Good question on being able to handle a boat singlehanded.  Some would recommend breaking up the sail plan, as a ketch perhaps, to reduce the handling loads.   Others would suggest bigger winches with a larger reduction, but that just means cranking for longer to get the sails where they need to be.   Others might suggest powered winches. > > > > I would appreciate hearing other's opinions on those options. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: gary.lucas@... > > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:06:00 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >      The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the difference in length! > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > From: Maxime Camirand > > > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > > > > > Hi again group, > > > > > > > > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build > > > > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > > > > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see > > > > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make > > > > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow > > > > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a > > > > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more > > > > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > > > > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > > > > > > > > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Max > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > | 28431|28390|2012-06-21 16:07:47|Paul Wilson|Re: Seeing a 40 and a 36|I think cubed is stretching it...:). A 40 foot boats proportions change. Height, and width don't go up like length when stretching a boat unless you keep everything proportional, which you normally don't. Anyway, if we go with 40 versus 36 and assume cubed is correct.... 36 cubed is 46656 40 cubed is 64000 64000 divided by 46656 is 1.37 so a 40 foot boat would be 37% more than a 36 footer. Let's assume it was squared instead of cubed. I won't put the figures but doing the same calculations a 40 footer would be 23% more than a 36 footer. Did I do that right? There are so many assumptions here......some costs definitely go up, but some not so much. Being a rule of thumb, it is likely that the size of thumb will vary according to the size of the hammer that hits it. Is building a boat 40 foot that much more work than building a boat that is 36 footer? Is the fact that you might need one more gallon of antifouling every two years a maintenance break point? I hope not. Will a used sail for a 40 footer cost that much more than used sail for a 36 footer? I doubt it. Will a 40 footer have a bigger head, a bigger galley sink, a bigger vhf, etc, etc, etc? Not likely. If you own a boat for 10 or 20 years does it really matter? It all plays havoc with my grey matter :). Cheers, Paul On 22/06/2012 3:24 a.m., chris123 wrote: > the cube formula is easier to remember and for rough order of magnitude > estimates its good enough, > > Thanks for the detailed explanation however. Suffice it to say that the > difference between a 36 and 40 in terms of the costs is the cube of the > difference. So the ratio in this case would be 4 cubed which is rather > high...:) > > Best and kind regards > > /ch > | 28432|28390|2012-06-21 16:12:42|mauro gonzaga|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Hope you mean MARCONI not MACARONI. The rig was called Marconi from the inventor of the radio (the Italian Guglielmo Marconi) because of the stick high and slender full of wires, just like a radio antenna. You know, I am Italian Mauro ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 8:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)   My Arco 40 sheet winches cost me $150 each in a dock sale.With older boats being broken up, the market is flooded with cheap winches, far cheaper than having to rig two masts etc. I have done zero maintenance on mine , since buying them in 1995. Whatever winches you us, a massive overkill on size is always a good idea. Ditto my $100 roller furler. A sloop wit a roller furler is very simple to sail. Friends, who went from junk rig to Macaroni said the Macaroni rig was far easier to sail, and deal with. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28433|28390|2012-06-21 19:16:13|chris123|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Frig at those prices you guys have it good. Used stuff down here is rare, marina dumpsters are now off limits for "liabilitiy reasons" and the best one this weekend..."hay who owns that boat, she looks interesing" to the brokers secretary....response: "the privacy act prevents me from discussing it...." I just started to laugh so much that I was shown the door...politely of course to avoid harassment charges..:) Political correctness sucks big time. /ch On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:03 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > My Arco 40 sheet winches cost me $150 each in a dock sale.With older boats > being broken up, the market is flooded with cheap winches, far cheaper than > having to rig two masts etc. I have done zero maintenance on mine , since > buying them in 1995. Whatever winches you us, a massive overkill on size is > always a good idea. > Ditto my $100 roller furler. > A sloop wit a roller furler is very simple to sail. Friends, who went from > junk rig to Macaroni said the Macaroni rig was far easier to sail, and deal > with. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > wrote: > > > > If it were me I would break the sail plan down to make it as efficient > > and fool proof as possible for one person to handle. More winches, > > more expense more maintenance more expense...:) Larger winches come > > with the same formula but with an additional cost factor...so the > > number of sails and their size is what whats relevant to me as I can > > use less expensive smaller winches and keep them all the same size. > > Maintenance and spares then becomes a simple matter. Some will be over > > sized for a specific function on a Ketch rig but that's OK...as it > > keeps things simple. Simple is important to me at least. > > > > /ch > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the cube of the ratio or fractional increase in length. > > > > > > If 36' has a cost of X, then 40' would have a cost of 1.37 X, or 37% > more expensive. > > > > > > Good question on being able to handle a boat singlehanded. Some would > recommend breaking up the sail plan, as a ketch perhaps, to reduce the > handling loads. Others would suggest bigger winches with a larger > reduction, but that just means cranking for longer to get the sails where > they need to be. Others might suggest powered winches. > > > > > > I would appreciate hearing other's opinions on those options. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: gary.lucas@... > > > > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:06:00 -0400 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the > difference in length! > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Maxime Camirand > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi again group, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build > > > > > > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > > > > > > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see > > > > > > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make > > > > > > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow > > > > > > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a > > > > > > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more > > > > > > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > > > > > > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Max > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28434|28241|2012-06-22 10:31:53|martin demers|Re: Mooring bits--Welding|my mooring bitts are now welded with 309l...! Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: akenai@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 20:12:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Welding Martin The correct answer here is to use 309 if you are going to use SS for your bits. If you were to use regular rod E6010/11 or E7018 you would end up with a weak weld where it joins the SS, That is one place you want the strength. There several others in the group the like to go into technical details. I don't think it is necessary unless you want to know, The book for $159 should have some good info. Brent's method is time tested and is about as simple as it gets. Aaron ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:21 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Welding Being in the mooring bits subject I take the opportunity to ask if the mooring bits can be welded to the deck using regular welding rods, I find stainless rods on the expensive side...! Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:45:27 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors LOL Thanks, but you didn't need to do that. I didn't design it, I drew it. Which is a polite way of saying, I stole it. :) Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mooring bits--Religious anchors Doug: I changed file to note you designed it and a reference to the YouTube page.Thanks, MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28435|28241|2012-06-22 11:53:53|wild_explorer|Welding Stainless steel|You made me think about welding stainless... Bulwark pipe is the first SS (if you use SS pipe) to weld to the hull. As I understand, it is need to use 309/309L electrodes to weld SS (304 or 316) to mild steel. Is it correct? 309/309L electrodes are pretty expensive.... Is it need to use 316/316L electrodes (or 304/304L) welding SS to SS? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > my mooring bitts are now welded with 309l...! > > Martin > | 28436|28241|2012-06-22 13:31:26|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Welding Stainless steel|I believe I used 309L to weld all the SS to black iron hull. No problems so far. I welds very easily. Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: wild_explorer Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 15:53:51 To: Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Stainless steel You made me think about welding stainless... Bulwark pipe is the first SS (if you use SS pipe) to weld to the hull. As I understand, it is need to use 309/309L electrodes to weld SS (304 or 316) to mild steel. Is it correct? 309/309L electrodes are pretty expensive.... Is it need to use 316/316L electrodes (or 304/304L) welding SS to SS? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > my mooring bitts are now welded with 309l...! > > Martin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28437|28241|2012-06-22 15:01:29|wild_explorer|Re: Welding Stainless steel|According to the link below (check box "metal to weld - stainless steel") http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/consumables/stick-electrodes/Pages/stick-electrodes.aspx 309/309L (-15, -16, -17) is recommended for "Joining stainless steel to mild or low alloy steel". So, it should not be any problems at all with the welds (SS pipe to the hull) - it is correct electrode for it... I read somewhere that first welding pass of E309 (welding SS to mild steel) gives corrosion resistance of the weld similar to 304 SS. Can anybody confirm it? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell@... wrote: > > I believe I used 309L to weld all the SS to black iron hull. No problems so far. I welds very easily. Gord > Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. > Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell. > > -----Original Message----- > From: wild_explorer > Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 15:53:51 > To: > Reply-to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Stainless steel > > You made me think about welding stainless... > > Bulwark pipe is the first SS (if you use SS pipe) to weld to the hull. As I understand, it is need to use 309/309L electrodes to weld SS (304 or 316) to mild steel. Is it correct? 309/309L electrodes are pretty expensive.... > > Is it need to use 316/316L electrodes (or 304/304L) welding SS to SS? > | 28438|28241|2012-06-22 17:03:56|Paul Wilson|Re: Welding Stainless steel|304 will rust. Use 309 or 316. People now say use 309 but everything on my boat was welded with 316 and I have never had any problems.... Haven't you asked this question a couple of times before? Paul On 23/06/2012 3:53 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > You made me think about welding stainless... > > Bulwark pipe is the first SS (if you use SS pipe) to weld to the hull. > As I understand, it is need to use 309/309L electrodes to weld SS (304 > or 316) to mild steel. Is it correct? 309/309L electrodes are pretty > expensive.... > > Is it need to use 316/316L electrodes (or 304/304L) welding SS to SS? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , martin demers > wrote: > > > > my mooring bitts are now welded with 309l...! > > > > Martin > > > > | 28439|28241|2012-06-22 18:42:16|wild_explorer|Re: Welding Stainless steel|Nope. I was not asking before... I did not start it ;)) According to rod's manufacturers, 309 rod is recommended for welding SS to mild still. Final weld probably will be similar to 304 SS grade. And you said it rust... 316 Rod is recommended to weld SS to SS. I think there is a reason for not using 316 rod to join SS to mild steel (it was pretty technical discussion here several days ago). Another question: If 316 is much better than 304, how to recognize 316 at scrap yard? when you buy new, you just specify SS grade. Is there any simple way to check if scrap SS is 316/316L grade? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > 304 will rust. Use 309 or 316. People now say use 309 but everything on > my boat was welded with 316 and I have never had any problems.... > > Haven't you asked this question a couple of times before? Paul | 28440|28241|2012-06-22 19:44:47|Paul Wilson|Re: Welding Stainless steel|Ok, sorry. Everything ss on my boat is welded with 316 rods. I don't think 309 even existed when I built my boat but I could be wrong. Anyway, 316 has been no problems after more than 25 years. Anything 304 will get rust spots in the heat and salt of the tropics. 316 is OK. If I remember right, 304 is slightly magnetic and if the ss in not polished looks a little bit shinier than 316. It has been awhile but others can confirm. You can also ask the scrap yard where they got their scrap. My favorite scap yards used to get everything from the boat yards. You could almost guarantee it was 316. Architectural stuff is quite often 304. There is really crappy ss coming out now which is 302 and I believe from China. Avoid at all costs. I think anything from kitchens is usually 400 series. I am not sure about pulp mills. Cheers, Paul On 23/06/2012 10:42 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Nope. I was not asking before... I did not start it ;)) > > According to rod's manufacturers, 309 rod is recommended for welding > SS to mild still. Final weld probably will be similar to 304 SS grade. > And you said it rust... > > 316 Rod is recommended to weld SS to SS. I think there is a reason for > not using 316 rod to join SS to mild steel (it was pretty technical > discussion here several days ago). > > Another question: If 316 is much better than 304, how to recognize 316 > at scrap yard? when you buy new, you just specify SS grade. Is there > any simple way to check if scrap SS is 316/316L grade? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > 304 will rust. Use 309 or 316. People now say use 309 but everything on > > my boat was welded with 316 and I have never had any problems.... > > > > Haven't you asked this question a couple of times before? Paul > > | 28441|28241|2012-06-22 22:25:37|martin demers|Re: Welding Stainless steel|stainless is so hard to get ,second hand, around here that I dont try to know if it is 304 or 316. I pay and take it with me. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 22:42:13 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Stainless steel Nope. I was not asking before... I did not start it ;)) According to rod's manufacturers, 309 rod is recommended for welding SS to mild still. Final weld probably will be similar to 304 SS grade. And you said it rust... 316 Rod is recommended to weld SS to SS. I think there is a reason for not using 316 rod to join SS to mild steel (it was pretty technical discussion here several days ago). Another question: If 316 is much better than 304, how to recognize 316 at scrap yard? when you buy new, you just specify SS grade. Is there any simple way to check if scrap SS is 316/316L grade? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > 304 will rust. Use 309 or 316. People now say use 309 but everything on > my boat was welded with 316 and I have never had any problems.... > > Haven't you asked this question a couple of times before? Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28442|28241|2012-06-23 06:10:14|Kim|Re: Welding Stainless steel|Hi Wild ... If the cost of the SS bulwark pipes (and the 309L rods to weld it in place) is an issue, then just use lengths of cheap galvanized pipe instead. That's an alternative option according to my set of plans. You'll then be able to use mild steel rods to weld it in place. I almost used galvanized pipe on my boat; but then found some 316L SS pipe that was extremely cheap, so I used that instead. You'll only be doing one welding pass when welding on the bulwark pipe. Use 309L if your using stainless pipe, or your ordinary mild steel welding rods if you're using galvanized pipe. To determine the grade of the SS you've got in your hand at the scrap yard: get a small, very strong magnet and tie a length of string to it. Holding the end of the string, dangle the magnet very close to the bit of stainless. If the magnet does not move *at all*, then the bit of stainless you're looking at will almost certainly be good enough for use on your boat. There are various chemical tests that will determine its exact grade (316, 304, etc); but the magnet test is usually more than good enough. Beggars can't be choosers when buying scrap stainless! The only stainless rods you will need during construction are 309L (for mild steel to stainless), and 316L (for stainless to stainless). Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > Another question: If 316 is much better than 304, how to recognize 316 at scrap yard? when you buy new, you just specify SS grade. Is there any simple way to check if scrap SS is 316/316L grade? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > I read somewhere that first welding pass of E309 (welding SS to mild steel) gives corrosion resistance of the weld similar to 304 SS. Can anybody confirm it? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > You made me think about welding stainless... > > Bulwark pipe is the first SS (if you use SS pipe) to weld to the hull. As I understand, it is need to use 309/309L electrodes to weld SS (304 or 316) to mild steel. Is it correct? 309/309L electrodes are pretty expensive.... > > Is it need to use 316/316L electrodes (or 304/304L) welding SS to SS? | 28443|28390|2012-06-23 17:55:34|brentswain38|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|In a Floriduh boat trader magazine I saw an airial photo of a yard in Clearwater Floriduh, with acres of rigs, masts, etc salvaged off the many hurricane damaged boats there. Could possibly justify and east coaster making a trip down there. All that gear has to be going somewhere. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Frig at those prices you guys have it good. Used stuff down here is rare, > marina dumpsters are now off limits for "liabilitiy reasons" and the best > one this weekend..."hay who owns that boat, she looks interesing" to the > brokers secretary....response: "the privacy act prevents me from discussing > it...." I just started to laugh so much that I was shown the > door...politely of course to avoid harassment charges..:) Political > correctness sucks big time. > > /ch > > > On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:03 PM, brehat hgear has ot be gong somewhere.ntswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > My Arco 40 sheet winches cost me $150 each in a dock sale.With older boats > > being broken up, the market is flooded with cheap winches, far cheaper than > > having to rig two masts etc. I have done zero maintenance on mine , since > > buying them in 1995. Whatever winches you us, a massive overkill on size is > > always a good idea. > > Ditto my $100 roller furler. > > A sloop wit a roller furler is very simple to sail. Friends, who went from > > junk rig to Macaroni said the Macaroni rig was far easier to sail, and deal > > with. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > > wrote: > > > > > > If it were me I would break the sail plan down to make it as efficient > > > and fool proof as possible for one person to handle. More winches, > > > more expense more maintenance more expense...:) Larger winches come > > > with the same formula but with an additional cost factor...so the > > > number of sails and their size is what whats relevant to me as I can > > > use less expensive smaller winches and keep them all the same size. > > > Maintenance and spares then becomes a simple matter. Some will be over > > > sized for a specific function on a Ketch rig but that's OK...as it > > > keeps things simple. Simple is important to me at least. > > > > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the cube of the ratio or fractional increase in length. > > > > > > > > If 36' has a cost of X, then 40' would have a cost of 1.37 X, or 37% > > more expensive. > > > > > > > > Good question on being able to handle a boat singlehanded. Some would > > recommend breaking up the sail plan, as a ketch perhaps, to reduce the > > handling loads. Others would suggest bigger winches with a larger > > reduction, but that just means cranking for longer to get the sails where > > they need to be. Others might suggest powered winches. > > > > > > > > I would appreciate hearing other's opinions on those options. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: gary.lucas@ > > > > > > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:06:00 -0400 > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The cost of a boat increases as a function of the CUBE of the > > difference in length! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Maxime Camirand > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:49 PM > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Seeing a 40 and a 36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi again group, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm almost ready to buy plans, but I'm still not sure whether to build > > > > > > > > the 40 or the 36. Considering the amount of time and money I'll put > > > > > > > > into building, it would make sense to invest in a trip out West to see > > > > > > > > a 36 and a 40 in person. A 36 is plenty big, but I would like to make > > > > > > > > a living on the water, so I figure the extra space on a 40 could allow > > > > > > > > me to accomodate guests in more comfort and privacy, have space for a > > > > > > > > scuba compressor, etc. The downside is that some of the gear gets more > > > > > > > > expensive on a 40, and maybe you cross a threshold where the sails > > > > > > > > become harder for 1 person to handle alone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone willing to show me their boat? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Max > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28444|28241|2012-06-23 18:00:07|brentswain38|Re: Welding Stainless steel|I used galvanized for my bulwark caps except he side opposite from where I drag my dinghy over( duhhh) Now I'm thinking of replacing the pipe on the side where I do drag my dinghy over,with stainless. On the last boat I built, we used galvanized, except in the places of maximum wear, based on where the trouble spots were on my boat; the gap midships where the dinghy drags over it, a foot back from the bow ,both sides, and the stern corners. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Wild ... > > If the cost of the SS bulwark pipes (and the 309L rods to weld it in place) is an issue, then just use lengths of cheap galvanized pipe instead. That's an alternative option according to my set of plans. You'll then be able to use mild steel rods to weld it in place. I almost used galvanized pipe on my boat; but then found some 316L SS pipe that was extremely cheap, so I used that instead. > > You'll only be doing one welding pass when welding on the bulwark pipe. Use 309L if your using stainless pipe, or your ordinary mild steel welding rods if you're using galvanized pipe. > > To determine the grade of the SS you've got in your hand at the scrap yard: get a small, very strong magnet and tie a length of string to it. Holding the end of the string, dangle the magnet very close to the bit of stainless. If the magnet does not move *at all*, then the bit of stainless you're looking at will almost certainly be good enough for use on your boat. There are various chemical tests that will determine its exact grade (316, 304, etc); but the magnet test is usually more than good enough. Beggars can't be choosers when buying scrap stainless! > > The only stainless rods you will need during construction are 309L (for mild steel to stainless), and 316L (for stainless to stainless). > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > Another question: If 316 is much better than 304, how to recognize 316 at scrap yard? when you buy new, you just specify SS grade. Is there any simple way to check if scrap SS is 316/316L grade? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > I read somewhere that first welding pass of E309 (welding SS to mild steel) gives corrosion resistance of the weld similar to 304 SS. Can anybody confirm it? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > You made me think about welding stainless... > > > > Bulwark pipe is the first SS (if you use SS pipe) to weld to the hull. As I understand, it is need to use 309/309L electrodes to weld SS (304 or 316) to mild steel. Is it correct? 309/309L electrodes are pretty expensive.... > > > > Is it need to use 316/316L electrodes (or 304/304L) welding SS to SS? > | 28445|28241|2012-06-23 18:15:59|brentswain38|Re: Welding Stainless steel|Where there is no chipping or wear, 7018 gives plenty of strength for welding stainless to mild steel. You just have to keep it painted. CO2 Wire feed weld also works. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I used galvanized for my bulwark caps except he side opposite from where I drag my dinghy over( duhhh) Now I'm thinking of replacing the pipe on the side where I do drag my dinghy over,with stainless. On the last boat I built, we used galvanized, except in the places of maximum wear, based on where the trouble spots were on my boat; the gap midships where the dinghy drags over it, a foot back from the bow ,both sides, and the stern corners. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Wild ... > > > > If the cost of the SS bulwark pipes (and the 309L rods to weld it in place) is an issue, then just use lengths of cheap galvanized pipe instead. That's an alternative option according to my set of plans. You'll then be able to use mild steel rods to weld it in place. I almost used galvanized pipe on my boat; but then found some 316L SS pipe that was extremely cheap, so I used that instead. > > > > You'll only be doing one welding pass when welding on the bulwark pipe. Use 309L if your using stainless pipe, or your ordinary mild steel welding rods if you're using galvanized pipe. > > > > To determine the grade of the SS you've got in your hand at the scrap yard: get a small, very strong magnet and tie a length of string to it. Holding the end of the string, dangle the magnet very close to the bit of stainless. If the magnet does not move *at all*, then the bit of stainless you're looking at will almost certainly be good enough for use on your boat. There are various chemical tests that will determine its exact grade (316, 304, etc); but the magnet test is usually more than good enough. Beggars can't be choosers when buying scrap stainless! > > > > The only stainless rods you will need during construction are 309L (for mild steel to stainless), and 316L (for stainless to stainless). > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > Another question: If 316 is much better than 304, how to recognize 316 at scrap yard? when you buy new, you just specify SS grade. Is there any simple way to check if scrap SS is 316/316L grade? > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > I read somewhere that first welding pass of E309 (welding SS to mild steel) gives corrosion resistance of the weld similar to 304 SS. Can anybody confirm it? > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > You made me think about welding stainless... > > > > > > Bulwark pipe is the first SS (if you use SS pipe) to weld to the hull. As I understand, it is need to use 309/309L electrodes to weld SS (304 or 316) to mild steel. Is it correct? 309/309L electrodes are pretty expensive.... > > > > > > Is it need to use 316/316L electrodes (or 304/304L) welding SS to SS? > > > | 28446|28241|2012-06-23 22:37:19|wild_explorer|Re: Welding Stainless steel|Thanks Kim for such detailed explanation. Yep, it really depends if you can get a good deal (on anything). 1-1/2" Sh40 pipe (SS or galvanized) weight ~2.72Lb/ft (about 55Lb for 20ft). Scrap yard wants ($2-2.5/Lb) or $7/ft for unknown SS grade. New 304 SS is $8/ft ($3/Lb), New 316 SS is $11/ft (~$4/Lb) New galvanized pipe is $6-8/ft. As you see, the price difference at scrapyards for SS around here is almost equal the price of new 304 pipe. New Galvanized pipe cost almost the same as 304 SS. So, around here you really need to be a chooser... ;). Same with mild steel - need to check the price for new steel before buying scrap. You may even get better price buying new... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Wild ... > > If the cost of the SS bulwark pipes (and the 309L rods to weld it in place) is an issue, then just use lengths of cheap galvanized pipe instead. That's an alternative option according to my set of plans. You'll then be able to use mild steel rods to weld it in place. I almost used galvanized pipe on my boat; but then found some 316L SS pipe that was extremely cheap, so I used that instead. > > You'll only be doing one welding pass when welding on the bulwark pipe. Use 309L if your using stainless pipe, or your ordinary mild steel welding rods if you're using galvanized pipe. > > To determine the grade of the SS you've got in your hand at the scrap yard: get a small, very strong magnet and tie a length of string to it. Holding the end of the string, dangle the magnet very close to the bit of stainless. If the magnet does not move *at all*, then the bit of stainless you're looking at will almost certainly be good enough for use on your boat. There are various chemical tests that will determine its exact grade (316, 304, etc); but the magnet test is usually more than good enough. Beggars can't be choosers when buying scrap stainless! > > The only stainless rods you will need during construction are 309L (for mild steel to stainless), and 316L (for stainless to stainless). > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > Another question: If 316 is much better than 304, how to recognize 316 at scrap yard? when you buy new, you just specify SS grade. Is there any simple way to check if scrap SS is 316/316L grade? > | 28447|22|2012-06-24 00:40:24|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /10 Model of Origami Boat/Origamiboat_modeling_1_to_10_scale-part_1.pdf Uploaded by : wild_explorer Description : Pictures better than words ;) You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/10%20Model%20of%20Origami%20Boat/Origamiboat_modeling_1_to_10_scale-part_1.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, wild_explorer | 28448|28241|2012-06-24 02:00:07|wild_explorer|Re: Welding Stainless steel|Thanks Brent. It should work for SS bulwark pipe. It is need to paint the deck anyway... I think, that cleaning the welds with SS wheel-brush and applying zinc primer on it (at the end of the day after welding) will prevent possible corrosion in the welds. E7018 is about 3-4 times cheaper than E309. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Where there is no chipping or wear, 7018 gives plenty of strength for welding stainless to mild steel. You just have to keep it painted. CO2 Wire feed weld also works. > | 28449|28390|2012-06-24 10:27:18|chris123|Re: Options for handling a 40 and a 36 (was seeing a 40 and a 36)|Now that's a good winter project....thanks Brend. My sailing buddy has a place down there he bought for 3K. Really nice mobile home (70 vintage when they were made solid out of steal) in a very clean over 50 park next to a lake a few miles from Stuart. Sails his wayfarer all winter on a lake with alligators. Swears they don't touch humans...he's still around so perhaps he's right. Me...will go to the yard instead....don't like animals with four legs that can swim. Perhaps its time for a visit... Best and kind regards /ch On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 5:53 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > In a Floriduh boat trader magazine I saw an airial photo of a yard in > Clearwater Floriduh, with acres of rigs, masts, etc salvaged off the many > hurricane damaged boats there. Could possibly justify and east coaster > making a trip down there. All that gear has to be going somewhere. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28450|22|2012-06-24 19:31:20|Mark Hamill|New file uploaded to origamiboats|I just uploaded a file to the Origami site called "Galvanics" with the real title of Vessels in salt water. A guide to the use of anodes for galvanic protection of metal boats. by an Engineer named M johnson. I found it at this site. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/anodes-9582.html Pardon all the weird type--seems to have a mind of its own. I thought it might be of interest--but if you don't think it is worthwhile--let me know and I can remove. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28451|28451|2012-06-25 15:10:33|brentswain38|Power up your bug zapper|I just took the two AA batteries out of my tennis racket type bug zapper and put in a 9 volt battery. Wow, does that ever give it a wallop! Those horseflies which I used to simply stun, go up in smoke. Doesn't seem to hurt the electrics any. I just took one spring off the bottom contact and put it on top. The spacing is perfect for the 9 volt. I couldn't get the lid back on, so just taped it shut. When a 9 volt battery is too feeble to run 9 volt devices, it is still plenty for the Zapper, still far more voltage than the two AAs.| 28452|22|2012-06-25 15:15:37|brentswain38|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|I find a stainless weld around the bolt hole gives you a far better contact, stainless bolt on stainless weld . I still prefer to get a tack on one corner of the zinc strap for guaranteed contact, ASAP.I haven't found spacing all that critical. Did a cruise thru that site, first time in a long time. Saw all kinds of problems they are having, which I have extremely simple solutions for, but those assholes pissed me off, so let them figure it out. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > I just uploaded a file to the Origami site called "Galvanics" with the real title of Vessels in salt water. > A guide to the use of anodes for galvanic protection of metal boats. by an Engineer named M johnson. I found it at this site. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/anodes-9582.html Pardon all the weird type--seems to have a mind of its own. I thought it might be of interest--but if you don't think it is worthwhile--let me know and I can remove. MarkH > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28453|28336|2012-06-25 15:20:05|Anzley Tripp|Re: selling|I'm working on it ________________________________ From: john dean To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] selling   Have you posted photos of your boat? --- On Tue, 6/12/12, anzleytripp wrote: From: anzleytripp Subject: [origamiboats] selling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 2:31 PM We have been working winters on our boat for several years and now realize we aren't in the best of health to finish. It's unfinished but has lots of nice features and appliances: gimballed stove, microwave, wood stove/smoker, wood box, freezer, fridge, yanmar motor, lg fresh water tank, lots of storage and closet space all custom built to make the best of space. If interested please contact us with any questions ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28454|28451|2012-06-25 20:17:22|James Pronk|Re: Power up your bug zapper|Be careful Brent. The mounties might think you have a stun gun. --- On Mon, 6/25/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Power up your bug zapper To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, June 25, 2012, 3:09 PM   I just took the two AA batteries out of my tennis racket type bug zapper and put in a 9 volt battery. Wow, does that ever give it a wallop! Those horseflies which I used to simply stun, go up in smoke. Doesn't seem to hurt the electrics any. I just took one spring off the bottom contact and put it on top. The spacing is perfect for the 9 volt. I couldn't get the lid back on, so just taped it shut. When a 9 volt battery is too feeble to run 9 volt devices, it is still plenty for the Zapper, still far more voltage than the two AAs. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28455|28451|2012-06-25 22:31:31|steve|Re: Power up your bug zapper|Brent , this is awesome. We will definitely be moving up to 9 volts for the racket insecticider in our kitchen. How about 24 or 48 volts with a backpack battery and ride the bike through Comox picking off deer ? Instant Bambi Barbecue Or just use it to play tennis in the rain ? The potential is big (ha). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Be careful Brent. The mounties might think you have a stun gun. > > --- On Mon, 6/25/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Power up your bug zapper > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Monday, June 25, 2012, 3:09 PM > > > >   > > > > I just took the two AA batteries out of my tennis racket type bug zapper and put in a 9 volt battery. Wow, does that ever give it a wallop! Those horseflies which I used to simply stun, go up in smoke. Doesn't seem to hurt the electrics any. I just took one spring off the bottom contact and put it on top. The spacing is perfect for the 9 volt. I couldn't get the lid back on, so just taped it shut. When a 9 volt battery is too feeble to run 9 volt devices, it is still plenty for the Zapper, still far more voltage than the two AAs. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28456|28456|2012-06-25 23:46:49|kingsknight4life|Wildexplorer|Hi. I sent you a couple emails but apparently you did not receive them. Can you please email me? Thanks Rowland| 28457|28456|2012-06-26 03:30:59|wild_explorer|Re: Wildexplorer|If it was about Alum P/H, I have replied on all of them - I was puzzled why you asked the same question again and again ;). I have no idea why it did not went through. Last my respond was 6/22. Check your spam folder (just in case). I just sent you another e-mail from your group's e-mail link. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi. I sent you a couple emails but apparently you did not receive them. > > Can you please email me? > > Thanks > Rowland > | 28458|28456|2012-06-26 11:35:04|Matt Malone|CBC News Story on BC Scrap Metal Dealers Caught in CBC Sting|http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/06/25/bc-hot-metal-undercover.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28459|28459|2012-06-26 12:14:26|badpirate36|AC vs DC diesel generators|I would like to install a diesel generator, for charging my batteries. The only large appliances will be refrigeration, and tools(cause the boat will never be done). I'm leaning towards the small Fischer Panda DC generator, and using inverters to run tools. I'b be very interested in your opinions Thanx Tom| 28460|28459|2012-06-26 19:40:02|Chris Salayka|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|Hi   Check out this link on the Fischer/Panda. http://www.sailwhisper.com/logs/news_20080225.php Chris ________________________________ From: badpirate36 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 9:14:24 AM Subject: [origamiboats] AC vs DC diesel generators   I would like to install a diesel generator, for charging my batteries. The only large appliances will be refrigeration, and tools(cause the boat will never be done). I'm leaning towards the small Fischer Panda DC generator, and using inverters to run tools. I'b be very interested in your opinions Thanx Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28461|28459|2012-06-26 20:11:01|brentswain38|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|A friend, wathing cruisers in Mexico struggle with their generators, is always teling them. "Bolt a Honda engine and an alternator to a piece of plywood. It will charge your batteries, weld, and run your power tools. If the alternator quits, a new one from the auto wreckers will cost you $35. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > I would like to install a diesel generator, for charging my batteries. The only large appliances will be refrigeration, and tools(cause the boat will never be done). I'm leaning towards the small Fischer Panda DC generator, and using inverters to run tools. I'b be very interested in your opinions > > Thanx Tom > | 28462|28451|2012-06-26 20:20:10|brentswain38|Re: Power up your bug zapper|Kinda hard to get that close to even tame Comox deer, but would be great if it works. They are just a bunch of capacitors which dont seem all that voltage sensitive, and at under $4 each ,it wouldn't cost much to experiment. 9 volts isn't a huge increse , but it definitely hits them much harder. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > Brent , this is awesome. We will definitely be moving up to 9 volts for the racket insecticider in our kitchen. > How about 24 or 48 volts with a backpack battery and ride the bike through Comox picking off deer ? Instant Bambi Barbecue > > > Or just use it to play tennis in the rain ? > The potential is big (ha). > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Be careful Brent. The mounties might think you have a stun gun. > > > > --- On Mon, 6/25/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Power up your bug zapper > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Monday, June 25, 2012, 3:09 PM > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > I just took the two AA batteries out of my tennis racket type bug zapper and put in a 9 volt battery. Wow, does that ever give it a wallop! Those horseflies which I used to simply stun, go up in smoke. Doesn't seem to hurt the electrics any. I just took one spring off the bottom contact and put it on top. The spacing is perfect for the 9 volt. I couldn't get the lid back on, so just taped it shut. When a 9 volt battery is too feeble to run 9 volt devices, it is still plenty for the Zapper, still far more voltage than the two AAs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 28463|28459|2012-06-27 13:34:53|Mark Hamill|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|Further to Brents suggestion of a motor and alternator--I used such a combo for years on a liveaboard boat. I used a 5 hp Briggs and Stratton that I put in a box to protect from the elements. I think the 5 hp was overkill and a smaller motor would work and save weight. This boat had a 10 hp outboard with only a small 25 watt charging unit so with the power demands needed some way to charge the batteries. I eventually added an Air Marine wind charger. Would recommend going for a quieter muffler if one is available or maybe run a hose over the side into the water to cut down exhaust noise?? Mark H [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28464|28464|2012-06-28 12:15:09|wild_explorer|Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|Does anybody have knowledge/recommendations for insurance companies (US)providing such kind of insurance? Most boat insurance companies DO NOT have this type of insurance, even they say they do. Problem: The DIY boatyard requires liability insurance from builder (for boats around and yard buildings). It will be a good idea to insure boat under contraction (materials, equipment, etc) as well. This is LAND BASED liability (different than "boat in storage"). Another problem, this kind of insurance should be issued for private party (not for business company). Of course, it is not so hard to register LLC or another type of business, but it is extra work ;)| 28465|28464|2012-06-28 14:59:01|Darren Bos|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|Wild, It is probably worth turning yourself into a business entity. A year or two ago Good Old Boat had a good article recommending people create a business even if they were just refurbishing a plastic boat. It allows you to write off some expenses and creates opportunities for discounts on materials. If you can't find the article, let me know and I will dig through my back issues. If you go this route, then the insurance should be simpler as well. I'm sure you've already considered looking for another building site where insurance is not necessary? Darren At 09:03 AM 28/06/2012, you wrote: > > >Does anybody have knowledge/recommendations for >insurance companies (US)providing such kind of >insurance? Most boat insurance companies DO NOT >have this type of insurance, even they say they do. > >Problem: The DIY boatyard requires liability >insurance from builder (for boats around and >yard buildings). It will be a good idea to >insure boat under contraction (materials, >equipment, etc) as well. This is LAND BASED >liability (different than "boat in storage"). >Another problem, this kind of insurance should >be issued for private party (not for business >company). Of course, it is not so hard to >register LLC or another type of business, but it is extra work ;) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28466|28464|2012-06-28 17:26:05|wild_explorer|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|I am looking at all available options right now... Even farmers here will not rent anything because of liability issue. Release of liability is not enough. Available industrial space requires insurance too. I talk to people who have new boats under construction and insurance companies. They ALL said it is VERY hard to find this kind of insurance today (especially for boat under construction - means never registered). Even companies who claims they have such insurance (on a website) cannot do it right now. Insurance company need to have permissions to run business in the state as well. You are correct... May be I have to register some kind of business for this project - to many troubles to do it as private party here ;(( The bad part - I am ready, materials ready, but cannot start the project --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > > It is probably worth turning yourself into a > business entity. A year or two ago Good Old Boat > had a good article recommending people create a > business even if they were just refurbishing a > plastic boat. It allows you to write off some > expenses and creates opportunities for discounts > on materials. If you can't find the article, let > me know and I will dig through my back > issues. If you go this route, then the insurance > should be simpler as well. I'm sure you've > already considered looking for another building > site where insurance is not necessary? > > Darren > > At 09:03 AM 28/06/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Does anybody have knowledge/recommendations for > >insurance companies (US)providing such kind of > >insurance? Most boat insurance companies DO NOT > >have this type of insurance, even they say they do. | 28467|28464|2012-06-28 18:00:16|martin demers|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|come build it in Canada! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:24:10 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk I am looking at all available options right now... Even farmers here will not rent anything because of liability issue. Release of liability is not enough. Available industrial space requires insurance too. I talk to people who have new boats under construction and insurance companies. They ALL said it is VERY hard to find this kind of insurance today (especially for boat under construction - means never registered). Even companies who claims they have such insurance (on a website) cannot do it right now. Insurance company need to have permissions to run business in the state as well. You are correct... May be I have to register some kind of business for this project - to many troubles to do it as private party here ;(( The bad part - I am ready, materials ready, but cannot start the project --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > > It is probably worth turning yourself into a > business entity. A year or two ago Good Old Boat > had a good article recommending people create a > business even if they were just refurbishing a > plastic boat. It allows you to write off some > expenses and creates opportunities for discounts > on materials. If you can't find the article, let > me know and I will dig through my back > issues. If you go this route, then the insurance > should be simpler as well. I'm sure you've > already considered looking for another building > site where insurance is not necessary? > > Darren > > At 09:03 AM 28/06/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Does anybody have knowledge/recommendations for > >insurance companies (US)providing such kind of > >insurance? Most boat insurance companies DO NOT > >have this type of insurance, even they say they do. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28468|28464|2012-06-28 18:03:50|Doug Jackson|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|We found a farmer that would let us build on his land so there are some out there, but we ended up buying a 100 x 200 foot lot in town.  The key is that it is in the worst part of town, and I had a house sitting on it that was going to cost the owner to tear down.  We paid $1400 for the place and fixed the house.  Best part is that it's only 5 miles from my work downtown and 50 ft from the steel yard.  We keep the neighbors happy and they watch our place. And life on skid row is entertaining too.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 4:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk   I am looking at all available options right now... Even farmers here will not rent anything because of liability issue. Release of liability is not enough. Available industrial space requires insurance too. I talk to people who have new boats under construction and insurance companies. They ALL said it is VERY hard to find this kind of insurance today (especially for boat under construction - means never registered). Even companies who claims they have such insurance (on a website) cannot do it right now. Insurance company need to have permissions to run business in the state as well. You are correct... May be I have to register some kind of business for this project - to many troubles to do it as private party here ;(( The bad part - I am ready, materials ready, but cannot start the project --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > > It is probably worth turning yourself into a > business entity. A year or two ago Good Old Boat > had a good article recommending people create a > business even if they were just refurbishing a > plastic boat. It allows you to write off some > expenses and creates opportunities for discounts > on materials. If you can't find the article, let > me know and I will dig through my back > issues. If you go this route, then the insurance > should be simpler as well. I'm sure you've > already considered looking for another building > site where insurance is not necessary? > > Darren > > At 09:03 AM 28/06/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Does anybody have knowledge/recommendations for > >insurance companies (US)providing such kind of > >insurance? Most boat insurance companies DO NOT > >have this type of insurance, even they say they do. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28469|28464|2012-06-28 18:05:15|Gord Schnell|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|I found a rental property with enough space to accomodate a temporary structure and built there ... No insurance, no hassle. Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: "wild_explorer" Sender: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:24:10 To: Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk I am looking at all available options right now... Even farmers here will not rent anything because of liability issue. Release of liability is not enough. Available industrial space requires insurance too. I talk to people who have new boats under construction and insurance companies. They ALL said it is VERY hard to find this kind of insurance today (especially for boat under construction - means never registered). Even companies who claims they have such insurance (on a website) cannot do it right now. Insurance company need to have permissions to run business in the state as well. You are correct... May be I have to register some kind of business for this project - to many troubles to do it as private party here ;(( The bad part - I am ready, materials ready, but cannot start the project --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > > It is probably worth turning yourself into a > business entity. A year or two ago Good Old Boat > had a good article recommending people create a > business even if they were just refurbishing a > plastic boat. It allows you to write off some > expenses and creates opportunities for discounts > on materials. If you can't find the article, let > me know and I will dig through my back > issues. If you go this route, then the insurance > should be simpler as well. I'm sure you've > already considered looking for another building > site where insurance is not necessary? > > Darren > > At 09:03 AM 28/06/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Does anybody have knowledge/recommendations for > >insurance companies (US)providing such kind of > >insurance? Most boat insurance companies DO NOT > >have this type of insurance, even they say they do. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28470|28464|2012-06-28 20:50:21|wild_explorer|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|Thanks to All for the ideas. Doug, did I get it right? You bought 100 x 200ft lot with house and overhead cranes (where you building your boat) for $1,400 (1.4K)??? If so, you are a real bargain hunter ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > but we ended up buying a 100 x 200 foot lot in town.  The key is that it is in the worst part of town, and I had a house sitting on it that was going to cost the owner to tear down.  We paid $1400 for the place and fixed the house. >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com | 28471|28464|2012-06-28 21:32:15|Doug Jackson|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|...the house was a dilapidated shack that you could not see for all the brush.   Everything else was added.   I asked the seller what her best offer had been and in a depressed voice she said "$700".   So I doubled that just in case there is a Hell.     Photos: http://svseeker.com/house.htm%c2%a0%c2%a0   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk   Thanks to All for the ideas. Doug, did I get it right? You bought 100 x 200ft lot with house and overhead cranes (where you building your boat) for $1,400 (1.4K)??? If so, you are a real bargain hunter ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > but we ended up buying a 100 x 200 foot lot in town.  The key is that it is in the worst part of town, and I had a house sitting on it that was going to cost the owner to tear down.  We paid $1400 for the place and fixed the house. >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28472|28464|2012-06-28 21:40:48|chris123|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|Where are you located in terms of the building site. US friends typically registered their computer companies in tax free States to avoid issues with taxes, whether they were LLC or full blown companies with a staff of one. The benefits are good when it comes to tax time as much of your stuff gets to be written off. On gig two dreams in Ottawa Canada planned and worked well while building a barge in town was to become and instructional boat building company and then offer kits on demands. They were two accountants that worked for Rev Can. They documented everything with a video camera, made available DVD's and manuals and had the boat shipped to France I think it was. I was surprised it even floated. But what the heck, these two boys used the skills they had to get around many issues one of which was the expense of building a wood plywood barge. Check you local laws. A business entity with an angle similar to above may or may not work for you but should give you some level of "legitimacy" with the insurer. Best of luck. /ch On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 5:24 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > ** > > > I am looking at all available options right now... Even farmers here will > not rent anything because of liability issue. Release of liability is not > enough. Available industrial space requires insurance too. > > I talk to people who have new boats under construction and insurance > companies. They ALL said it is VERY hard to find this kind of insurance > today (especially for boat under construction - means never registered). > Even companies who claims they have such insurance (on a website) cannot do > it right now. Insurance company need to have permissions to run business in > the state as well. > > You are correct... May be I have to register some kind of business for > this project - to many troubles to do it as private party here ;(( The bad > part - I am ready, materials ready, but cannot start the project > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Wild, > > > > It is probably worth turning yourself into a > > business entity. A year or two ago Good Old Boat > > had a good article recommending people create a > > business even if they were just refurbishing a > > plastic boat. It allows you to write off some > > expenses and creates opportunities for discounts > > on materials. If you can't find the article, let > > me know and I will dig through my back > > issues. If you go this route, then the insurance > > should be simpler as well. I'm sure you've > > already considered looking for another building > > site where insurance is not necessary? > > > > Darren > > > > At 09:03 AM 28/06/2012, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >Does anybody have knowledge/recommendations for > > >insurance companies (US)providing such kind of > > >insurance? Most boat insurance companies DO NOT > > >have this type of insurance, even they say they do. > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28473|28464|2012-06-28 21:43:29|chris123|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|caveat....stay out of Ontario unless you head for a remote area...its all over regulated with limited resources here. BC or east coast would be great...all the boys would see you as entertainment and even lend a hand telling you what your doing wrong lad while swillen a beer or two. /ch On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 6:00 PM, martin demers wrote: > come build it in Canada! > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:24:10 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >      I am looking at all available options right now... Even farmers here will not rent anything because of liability issue. Release of liability is not enough. Available industrial space requires insurance too. > > > > I talk to people who have new boats under construction and insurance companies. They ALL said it is VERY hard to find this kind of insurance today (especially for boat under construction - means never registered). Even companies who claims they have such insurance (on a website) cannot do it right now. Insurance company need to have permissions to run business in the state as well. > > > > You are correct... May be I have to register some kind of business for this project - to many troubles to do it as private party here ;(( The bad part - I am ready, materials ready, but cannot start the project > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > >> > >> Wild, > >> > >> It is probably worth turning yourself into a > >> business entity.  A year or two ago Good Old Boat > >> had a good article recommending people create a > >> business even if they were just refurbishing a > >> plastic boat.  It allows you to write off some > >> expenses and creates opportunities for discounts > >> on materials.  If you can't find the article, let > >> me know and I will dig through my back > >> issues.  If you go this route, then the insurance > >> should be simpler as well.  I'm sure you've > >> already considered looking for another building > >> site where insurance is not necessary? > >> > >> Darren > >> > >> At 09:03 AM 28/06/2012, you wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> >Does anybody have knowledge/recommendations for > >> >insurance companies (US)providing such kind of > >> >insurance? Most boat insurance companies DO NOT > >> >have this type of insurance, even they say they do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- /ch | 28474|28451|2012-06-28 21:45:11|brentswain38|Re: Power up your bug zapper|Ever since an Alberta mosquito expert told me that they are primarily attracted to the CO2 in your breath, I have thought of putting one over a vent , hooking it up, then laying in bed listenig to them snap crackle and pop, as they fly upwind to follow my breath, and CO2 from my cook stove. . Looks like I may be able to hook one up direct to my 12 volt battery. A day or two like that and I may clean out 95% of the mosquitoes in any anchorage. Wont cost much to try. If more boats do that , they may become a problem of the past. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Kinda hard to get that close to even tame Comox deer, but would be great if it works. > They are just a bunch of capacitors which dont seem all that voltage sensitive, and at under $4 each ,it wouldn't cost much to experiment. 9 volts isn't a huge increse , but it definitely hits them much harder. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > Brent , this is awesome. We will definitely be moving up to 9 volts for the racket insecticider in our kitchen. > > How about 24 or 48 volts with a backpack battery and ride the bike through Comox picking off deer ? Instant Bambi Barbecue > > > > > > Or just use it to play tennis in the rain ? > > The potential is big (ha). > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > Be careful Brent. The mounties might think you have a stun gun. > > > > > > --- On Mon, 6/25/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Power up your bug zapper > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Received: Monday, June 25, 2012, 3:09 PM > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > I just took the two AA batteries out of my tennis racket type bug zapper and put in a 9 volt battery. Wow, does that ever give it a wallop! Those horseflies which I used to simply stun, go up in smoke. Doesn't seem to hurt the electrics any. I just took one spring off the bottom contact and put it on top. The spacing is perfect for the 9 volt. I couldn't get the lid back on, so just taped it shut. When a 9 volt battery is too feeble to run 9 volt devices, it is still plenty for the Zapper, still far more voltage than the two AAs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 28475|28464|2012-06-28 22:30:04|wild_explorer|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|Simply WOW!!! The price of gasoline/per_year to drive around where I am... Talking about location, location, location... I mean where to build a boat ;)). And even next to steel yard.... No need for any insurance... All utilities on site... TRIPLE WOW!!! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > I asked the seller what her best offer had been and in a depressed voice she said "$700". | 28476|28464|2012-06-28 23:05:39|wild_explorer|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|Thanks for reminding me about taxes. I am close to the border of the states. One of it does not have sale taxes, another one has no income taxes. Something to think about ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Where are you located in terms of the building site. US friends typically > registered their computer companies in tax free States to avoid issues with > taxes, whether they were LLC or full blown companies with a staff of one. > > The benefits are good when it comes to tax time as much of your stuff gets > to be written off. | 28477|28464|2012-06-29 04:15:20|Maxime Camirand|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|Hi Doug, I liked the page on the house. Thanks for sharing. Regards, Max On 28 June 2012 21:32, Doug Jackson wrote: > ** > > > ...the house was a dilapidated shack that you could not see for all the > brush. Everything else was added. I asked the seller what her best > offer had been and in a depressed voice she said "$700". So I doubled > that just in case there is a Hell. > > Photos: http://svseeker.com/house.htm > > > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:30 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk > > > > Thanks to All for the ideas. > > Doug, did I get it right? You bought 100 x 200ft lot with house and > overhead cranes (where you building your boat) for $1,400 (1.4K)??? If so, > you are a real bargain hunter ;) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > but we ended up buying a 100 x 200 foot lot in town. � The key is that > it is in the worst part of town, and I had a house sitting on it that was > going to cost the owner to tear down. � We paid $1400 for the place and > fixed the house. > > � > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28478|28451|2012-06-29 08:20:21|scott|Re: Power up your bug zapper|Harbour freight has a bug zapper racket that runs off of C cells.. I accidentally touched it while it was powered up early on after buying it. I had spasms in my arm... I'm pretty sure whoever oversees the safety of products imported into the country from china missed this one. Bugs should run far and wide because this thinks definitely qualifies as insecticide :) scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > Brent , this is awesome. We will definitely be moving up to 9 volts for the racket insecticider in our kitchen. > How about 24 or 48 volts with a backpack battery and ride the bike through Comox picking off deer ? Instant Bambi Barbecue > > > Or just use it to play tennis in the rain ? > The potential is big (ha). > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Be careful Brent. The mounties might think you have a stun gun. > > > > --- On Mon, 6/25/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Power up your bug zapper > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Monday, June 25, 2012, 3:09 PM > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > I just took the two AA batteries out of my tennis racket type bug zapper and put in a 9 volt battery. Wow, does that ever give it a wallop! Those horseflies which I used to simply stun, go up in smoke. Doesn't seem to hurt the electrics any. I just took one spring off the bottom contact and put it on top. The spacing is perfect for the 9 volt. I couldn't get the lid back on, so just taped it shut. When a 9 volt battery is too feeble to run 9 volt devices, it is still plenty for the Zapper, still far more voltage than the two AAs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 28479|28464|2012-06-29 10:23:58|James Pronk|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|Maybe we can all go and build boats at Doug's house! Or maybe we just need to build our boats so fast the simple serpents don't have a chance at caching us! I had a noise complaint last week but I think I was able to deal with it okay. The problem is that I am on the radar, All the more reason to build a boat and go sailing. James --- On Thu, 6/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, June 28, 2012, 10:25 PM   Simply WOW!!! The price of gasoline/per_year to drive around where I am... Talking about location, location, location... I mean where to build a boat ;)). And even next to steel yard.... No need for any insurance... All utilities on site... TRIPLE WOW!!! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > I asked the seller what her best offer had been and in a depressed voice she said "$700". [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28480|28464|2012-06-29 12:10:33|wild_explorer|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|I was looking why it is SO HARD to get General Liability Insurance here... What I found so far... - First, it is for businesses only - All businesses in this state (Oregon) are required to carry General Liability Insurance (registration will not be renewed without it). - Because of increased claims/expenses, insurance premium went up > 200-300% lately - Businesses cannot find or afford insurance and forced to work illegally (without insurance). After registration expires, they just leave the state. - State government admits Insurance crisis, but unable to do anything about it. It is still (kind of) free country... for someone... in some cases... So... It looks like going "business" route will add extra headache without much outcome if you have no profit to write off, or you are not using your property as part of your business (to write off personal taxes). And boat project for yourself is just expenses ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > > It is probably worth turning yourself into a > business entity. A year or two ago Good Old Boat > had a good article recommending people create a > business even if they were just refurbishing a > plastic boat. It allows you to write off some > expenses and creates opportunities for discounts > on materials. If you can't find the article, let > me know and I will dig through my back > issues. If you go this route, then the insurance > should be simpler as well. I'm sure you've > already considered looking for another building > site where insurance is not necessary? > > Darren | 28481|28464|2012-06-29 14:13:22|Mark Hamill|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|Yes Doug--thanks for sharing--took a tour of your neighborhood using google earth. I heard somewhere that there are 2.5 vacant houses for every occupied house in the US. Great site you have. MarkH| 28482|28464|2012-06-29 15:02:15|Doug Jackson|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|That number is high for this neighborhood, but there are still lots of them to be had.  The house we started with sat empty for 12 years.  Kay and I were working on the boat last time the Google photo car came by.  We're looking forward to the update. :)   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk   Yes Doug--thanks for sharing--took a tour of your neighborhood using google earth. I heard somewhere that there are 2.5 vacant houses for every occupied house in the US. Great site you have. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28483|28464|2012-06-30 18:20:52|brentswain38|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|One client pulled his hull together quickly, before the compaining bureaucrat could return.Then he quickly put the bare hull on a trailer , so he was now oficially "Working on a boat" rather than "building a boat" so no building permit was neeeded. These parasites have big stake in blocking anyones escape from the treadmill, and thus not having to pay their salaries, or grovel to their power. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Maybe we can all go and build boats at Doug's house! > Or maybe we just need to build our boats so fast the simple serpents don't have a chance at caching us! > I had a noise complaint last week but I think I was able to deal with it okay. The problem is that I am on the radar, All the more reason to build a boat and go sailing. > James > > --- On Thu, 6/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Thursday, June 28, 2012, 10:25 PM > > > >   > > > > Simply WOW!!! The price of gasoline/per_year to drive around where I am... > > Talking about location, location, location... I mean where to build a boat ;)). And even next to steel yard.... No need for any insurance... All utilities on site... TRIPLE WOW!!! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > I asked the seller what her best offer had been and in a depressed voice she said "$700". > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28484|28484|2012-07-01 08:13:41|Kim|Brent: Could you please have a look at this ...|Hi Brent ... Some time ago we discussed the structural importance of the tank top between the twin keels, and what construction alternatives were available if a built-in steel water tank wasn't wanted there (eg: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/26475 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/27715). After much thought, I decided to *not* have the steel water tank (and its tank top) between the keels in my boat, because I will *really* need that space for other extremely heavy stuff (such as a battery bank for an electric motor to drive the boat). For alternative water tanks I'll instead use flexible bags/bladders located in both the twin keels (above the ballast). I might end up with a bit less fresh water tankage; but it should be enough for my purposes. Flexible bags/bladders as water tanks have worked well for me in my previous boats. In this case, the weight of the fresh water will still be in the middle of the boat, and its CG in its new location in the keels should be much the same. I've just uploaded about 35 new photos to my boats website, all of which show what I've done in relation to securing the twin keels in place (without the tank top between the keels). I would be most grateful if you would have a look at the recent photos, and let me know if you think that what I've done is strong enough: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht I certainly didn't like deviating from your time-proven construction method in this area. All other part of my boat are to plan. Hopefully you will consider that the alternative structure I've put in place around the twin keels will be OK. A few other notes: * The plans call for 3 keel webs each side, made from 3"x3"x1/4" angle. I've put in 4 per side. The most aft web is heavier, and is made from 3"x3"x3/8" angle. The other three are made from 3"x3"x1/4" angle. * The horizontal component of each of the 4 webs is also made from 3"x3"x1/4" angle. (The wheelhouse sole will sit on these.) 5mm plate has been welded into the triangular space thus formed, creating an extremely strong-looking floor structure. The tops of the keels (which are also at wheelhouse sole level) provide longitudinal stiffening to everything. * Your plans show the keels protuding into the hull by 3". In my boat, with the keel webs I've put in place, the tops of the keels themselves protude into the hull by up to 7", and they are very heavily welded to all 3 components of each of the 4 webs. The keel tops have been cut off so that they are flush with the horizontal component of each of the 4 webs (and tops of the keels will provide support for the wheelhouse sole too). * I estimate that this keel web structure that I've built around the keels would be less than 20kg heavier than what it would have been if I had used the tank-top method. That extra weight isn't too bad. Of course, I'm hoping you'll say that I can drive my boat into immovable rocks at top speed and the keels will not ever move!! :-) But anyway, Brent, I'll be looking forward to hearing your thoughts about what I've done with the keel webs! Cheers ... Kim. PS: Naturally, if anyone else would like to comment on this, please feel free to do so! ___________________________________________________| 28485|28485|2012-07-01 08:45:08|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|Loran-c navigation system|I just read last night that the Loran-c system is no longer in use in North America since 2010. Is it still in use in other parts of the world? I got a Loran receiver and antena in a bounch of parts I bought from someone and I'd like to know if I could do anything with it. thanks, Martin.| 28486|28485|2012-07-01 09:15:33|Maxime Camirand|Re: Loran-c navigation system|I think there might still be some transmitters in Japan, but don't quote me on that. More importantly, LORAN-C is junk compared to GPS, and there's no point in using it. Regards, Max On 1 July 2012 08:44, wrote: > ** > > > > I just read last night that the Loran-c system is no longer in use in > North America since 2010. Is it still in use in other parts of the world? > I got a Loran receiver and antena in a bounch of parts I bought from > someone and I'd like to know if I could do anything with it. > > thanks, Martin. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28487|28459|2012-07-01 11:10:11|jhess314|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|Brent, What type of Honda engine are you/he talking about? Auto, motorcycle, outboard...? John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A friend, wathing cruisers in Mexico struggle with their generators, is always teling them. "Bolt a Honda engine and an alternator to a piece of plywood. It will charge your batteries, weld, and run your power tools. If the alternator quits, a new one from the auto wreckers will cost you $35. > | 28488|28464|2012-07-02 18:10:19|JOHN|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|Perhaps a boat could be registered by not mentioning in application that it is not completed? Paying fees to Oregon Marine board, getting new title and reg numbers may make purchasing liability ins possible? by adding boat to existing automobile or home owners policy? John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > One client pulled his hull together quickly, before the compaining bureaucrat could return.Then he quickly put the bare hull on a trailer , so he was now oficially "Working on a boat" rather than "building a boat" so no building permit was neeeded. > These parasites have big stake in blocking anyones escape from the treadmill, and thus not having to pay their salaries, or grovel to their power. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Maybe we can all go and build boats at Doug's house! > > Or maybe we just need to build our boats so fast the simple serpents don't have a chance at caching us! > > I had a noise complaint last week but I think I was able to deal with it okay. The problem is that I am on the radar, All the more reason to build a boat and go sailing. > > James > > > > --- On Thu, 6/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > From: wild_explorer > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Thursday, June 28, 2012, 10:25 PM > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > Simply WOW!!! The price of gasoline/per_year to drive around where I am... > > > > Talking about location, location, location... I mean where to build a boat ;)). And even next to steel yard.... No need for any insurance... All utilities on site... TRIPLE WOW!!! > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > > > I asked the seller what her best offer had been and in a depressed voice she said "$700". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 28489|28484|2012-07-02 18:18:34|brentswain38|Re: Brent: Could you please have a look at this ...|What you have looks excellent, more than adequate. You dont need any more than two supports from your chine to the inside edge of your cabinside , per side, anywhere along the perimiter, including the back end of the cabin. The cabinsides are, structurally, a beam on edge, and there is zero chance of it sagging betwen any two supports. Those between the front and back supports are totally redundant. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Brent ... > > Some time ago we discussed the structural importance of the tank top between the twin keels, and what construction alternatives were available if a built-in steel water tank wasn't wanted there (eg: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/26475 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/27715). > > After much thought, I decided to *not* have the steel water tank (and its tank top) between the keels in my boat, because I will *really* need that space for other extremely heavy stuff (such as a battery bank for an electric motor to drive the boat). > > For alternative water tanks I'll instead use flexible bags/bladders located in both the twin keels (above the ballast). I might end up with a bit less fresh water tankage; but it should be enough for my purposes. Flexible bags/bladders as water tanks have worked well for me in my previous boats. In this case, the weight of the fresh water will still be in the middle of the boat, and its CG in its new location in the keels should be much the same. > > I've just uploaded about 35 new photos to my boats website, all of which show what I've done in relation to securing the twin keels in place (without the tank top between the keels). > > I would be most grateful if you would have a look at the recent photos, and let me know if you think that what I've done is strong enough: > > http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > I certainly didn't like deviating from your time-proven construction method in this area. All other part of my boat are to plan. Hopefully you will consider that the alternative structure I've put in place around the twin keels will be OK. > > A few other notes: > > * The plans call for 3 keel webs each side, made from 3"x3"x1/4" angle. I've put in 4 per side. The most aft web is heavier, and is made from 3"x3"x3/8" angle. The other three are made from 3"x3"x1/4" angle. > > * The horizontal component of each of the 4 webs is also made from 3"x3"x1/4" angle. (The wheelhouse sole will sit on these.) 5mm plate has been welded into the triangular space thus formed, creating an extremely strong-looking floor structure. The tops of the keels (which are also at wheelhouse sole level) provide longitudinal stiffening to everything. > > * Your plans show the keels protuding into the hull by 3". In my boat, with the keel webs I've put in place, the tops of the keels themselves protude into the hull by up to 7", and they are very heavily welded to all 3 components of each of the 4 webs. The keel tops have been cut off so that they are flush with the horizontal component of each of the 4 webs (and tops of the keels will provide support for the wheelhouse sole too). > > * I estimate that this keel web structure that I've built around the keels would be less than 20kg heavier than what it would have been if I had used the tank-top method. That extra weight isn't too bad. > > Of course, I'm hoping you'll say that I can drive my boat into immovable rocks at top speed and the keels will not ever move!! :-) But anyway, Brent, I'll be looking forward to hearing your thoughts about what I've done with the keel webs! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > PS: Naturally, if anyone else would like to comment on this, please feel free to do so! > ___________________________________________________ > | 28490|28459|2012-07-02 18:25:21|brentswain38|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|Generator or pump engine. Brigs and Stratton works, and is cheaper ,but noisier. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > Brent, > What type of Honda engine are you/he talking about? Auto, motorcycle, outboard...? > John > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > A friend, wathing cruisers in Mexico struggle with their generators, is always teling them. "Bolt a Honda engine and an alternator to a piece of plywood. It will charge your batteries, weld, and run your power tools. If the alternator quits, a new one from the auto wreckers will cost you $35. > > > | 28491|28464|2012-07-02 18:25:47|brentswain38|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|In Canada, we have fewer such problems, because we are far less inclined to sue each other. The reason is here, if you lose, you are ordered to pay your victims legal costs. In the US, you have nothing to lose by launching a law suit, in Canada, you have a lot to lose if you lose the case. This discourages frivilous lawsuits here. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "JOHN" wrote: > > Perhaps a boat could be registered by not mentioning in application that it is not completed? Paying fees to Oregon Marine board, getting new title and reg numbers may make purchasing liability ins possible? by adding boat to existing automobile or home owners policy? John > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > One client pulled his hull together quickly, before the compaining bureaucrat could return.Then he quickly put the bare hull on a trailer , so he was now oficially "Working on a boat" rather than "building a boat" so no building permit was neeeded. > > These parasites have big stake in blocking anyones escape from the treadmill, and thus not having to pay their salaries, or grovel to their power. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > Maybe we can all go and build boats at Doug's house! > > > Or maybe we just need to build our boats so fast the simple serpents don't have a chance at caching us! > > > I had a noise complaint last week but I think I was able to deal with it okay. The problem is that I am on the radar, All the more reason to build a boat and go sailing. > > > James > > > > > > --- On Thu, 6/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: wild_explorer > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Received: Thursday, June 28, 2012, 10:25 PM > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply WOW!!! The price of gasoline/per_year to drive around where I am... > > > > > > Talking about location, location, location... I mean where to build a boat ;)). And even next to steel yard.... No need for any insurance... All utilities on site... TRIPLE WOW!!! > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > > > > > I asked the seller what her best offer had been and in a depressed voice she said "$700". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 28492|28484|2012-07-02 19:44:51|Kim|Re: Brent: Could you please have a look at this ...|Many thanks Brent! That's great! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > What you have looks excellent, more than adequate. > You dont need any more than two supports from your chine to the inside edge of your cabinside , per side, anywhere along the perimiter, including the back end of the cabin. The cabinsides are, structurally, a beam on edge, and there is zero chance of it sagging betwen any two supports. Those between the front and back supports are totally redundant. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent ... > > > > Some time ago we discussed the structural importance of the tank top between the twin keels, and what construction alternatives were available if a built-in steel water tank wasn't wanted there (eg: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/26475 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/27715). > > > > After much thought, I decided to *not* have the steel water tank (and its tank top) between the keels in my boat, because I will *really* need that space for other extremely heavy stuff (such as a battery bank for an electric motor to drive the boat). > > > > For alternative water tanks I'll instead use flexible bags/bladders located in both the twin keels (above the ballast). I might end up with a bit less fresh water tankage; but it should be enough for my purposes. Flexible bags/bladders as water tanks have worked well for me in my previous boats. In this case, the weight of the fresh water will still be in the middle of the boat, and its CG in its new location in the keels should be much the same. > > > > I've just uploaded about 35 new photos to my boats website, all of which show what I've done in relation to securing the twin keels in place (without the tank top between the keels). > > > > I would be most grateful if you would have a look at the recent photos, and let me know if you think that what I've done is strong enough: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > I certainly didn't like deviating from your time-proven construction method in this area. All other part of my boat are to plan. Hopefully you will consider that the alternative structure I've put in place around the twin keels will be OK. > > > > A few other notes: > > > > * The plans call for 3 keel webs each side, made from 3"x3"x1/4" angle. I've put in 4 per side. The most aft web is heavier, and is made from 3"x3"x3/8" angle. The other three are made from 3"x3"x1/4" angle. > > > > * The horizontal component of each of the 4 webs is also made from 3"x3"x1/4" angle. (The wheelhouse sole will sit on these.) 5mm plate has been welded into the triangular space thus formed, creating an extremely strong-looking floor structure. The tops of the keels (which are also at wheelhouse sole level) provide longitudinal stiffening to everything. > > > > * Your plans show the keels protuding into the hull by 3". In my boat, with the keel webs I've put in place, the tops of the keels themselves protude into the hull by up to 7", and they are very heavily welded to all 3 components of each of the 4 webs. The keel tops have been cut off so that they are flush with the horizontal component of each of the 4 webs (and tops of the keels will provide support for the wheelhouse sole too). > > > > * I estimate that this keel web structure that I've built around the keels would be less than 20kg heavier than what it would have been if I had used the tank-top method. That extra weight isn't too bad. > > > > Of course, I'm hoping you'll say that I can drive my boat into immovable rocks at top speed and the keels will not ever move!! :-) But anyway, Brent, I'll be looking forward to hearing your thoughts about what I've done with the keel webs! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > PS: Naturally, if anyone else would like to comment on this, please feel free to do so! > > ___________________________________________________ > > | 28493|28459|2012-07-03 12:11:30|Mark Hamill|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|I didn't learn this til later on-- after using the small engine and alternator for quite a while but somebody suggested sizing all the pulley widths so that the RPM of the alternator on the small engine setup matched that of an auto engine just to ensure it was charging at its maximum. Haven't done it--but it was suggested. And as Brent pointed out--the Briggs and Stratton are noisy which is why I suggested a larger muffler--which I also have not done--I just leave the boat and go for a walk. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28494|28459|2012-07-03 12:17:21|martin demers|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|I have a 16hp Brigg and Stratton engine on my gas welder, it is very noisy so when the original muffler was finish I installed a Ford Tempo muffler , less noisy but it still is. I think some of the noise comes from the engine itself. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 09:11:33 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: AC vs DC diesel generators I didn't learn this til later on-- after using the small engine and alternator for quite a while but somebody suggested sizing all the pulley widths so that the RPM of the alternator on the small engine setup matched that of an auto engine just to ensure it was charging at its maximum. Haven't done it--but it was suggested. And as Brent pointed out--the Briggs and Stratton are noisy which is why I suggested a larger muffler--which I also have not done--I just leave the boat and go for a walk. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28495|28485|2012-07-03 12:22:36|martin demers|Re: Loran-c navigation system|maybe it could still be usefull if there is a star war and all the satellites go out of service...lol Martin. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: maxcamirand@... > Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 09:15:12 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Loran-c navigation system > > I think there might still be some transmitters in Japan, but don't quote me > on that. More importantly, LORAN-C is junk compared to GPS, and there's no > point in using it. > > Regards, > Max > > On 1 July 2012 08:44, wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > > I just read last night that the Loran-c system is no longer in use in > > North America since 2010. Is it still in use in other parts of the world? > > I got a Loran receiver and antena in a bounch of parts I bought from > > someone and I'd like to know if I could do anything with it. > > > > thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28496|28464|2012-07-03 14:40:19|wild_explorer|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|I was looking for some small (private companies) boat yards around and found that almost all of them were shutdown. The reason - pollution. Nobody cares that boatbuilding was done for decades there by different owners/companies. Usually, when land changes hands, the soil test is performed and requires clean-up to comply with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). Only big corporations can afford it. You cannot use the site before you perform clean-up. So, all historic boatbuilding sites/yards are literally dead. If you looking to build a boat around Portland, Oregon you better to find private land where owner do not care much what you doing or build it somewhere else. Boat repair sites which are still in business charge "arms and legs" for service. Yep, I missed corner stone of the project - finding building site FIRST. In the area with long history of boatbuilding, is almost impossible to find boat building site.| 28497|28464|2012-07-03 18:10:38|brentswain38|Re: Land-base liability and Boat builder's risk|They worry about copper paint , but they have found that over 68% of the copper in Puget Sound comes from brake shoes. Boats make great political scapegoats, but lean on someones car and you are in poltical trouble. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was looking for some small (private companies) boat yards around and found that almost all of them were shutdown. The reason - pollution. Nobody cares that boatbuilding was done for decades there by different owners/companies. Usually, when land changes hands, the soil test is performed and requires clean-up to comply with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). Only big corporations can afford it. You cannot use the site before you perform clean-up. So, all historic boatbuilding sites/yards are literally dead. > > If you looking to build a boat around Portland, Oregon you better to find private land where owner do not care much what you doing or build it somewhere else. Boat repair sites which are still in business charge "arms and legs" for service. > > Yep, I missed corner stone of the project - finding building site FIRST. In the area with long history of boatbuilding, is almost impossible to find boat building site. > | 28498|28459|2012-07-03 18:14:56|brentswain38|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|I had to put a 9 inch pulley on my diesel to get the alternator going fast enough for welding. I just switched it to a ten inch. The first alternator welder I had was a commercially made welder. It had a Wiscosin engine on, 3800 RPM, with a 9 inch pulley. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > I didn't learn this til later on-- after using the small engine and alternator for quite a while but somebody suggested sizing all the pulley widths so that the RPM of the alternator on the small engine setup matched that of an auto engine just to ensure it was charging at its maximum. Haven't done it--but it was suggested. And as Brent pointed out--the Briggs and Stratton are noisy which is why I suggested a larger muffler--which I also have not done--I just leave the boat and go for a walk. MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28499|28485|2012-07-03 19:18:07|Matt Malone|Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|The problem with Loran is they are shutting down the transmitters. I have one of these guys: http://radioace.com/files/images/DSCN2412A.jpg Bendix Radio Navigator 550 radio direction finder. It will tune to regular civilian AM radio stations. Now, yes, GPS is better but if we assume the transmitting antenna is not far from your destination, this gives a direction to go to your destination, no charting or computation needed. Donald Crowhurst made one that was hand-held for use in the cockpit. It was like a compass pointing to your destination. It seemed quite fool-proof and intuitive. Yes, an X on a map at your lat/long is wonderful and better, but if it is small and cheap... And there are a lot of AM radio stations. I found a list somewhere with the frequency, latitude and longitude of all AM stations in the world... when I find a link, I will post it. Better than Loran. Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28500|28459|2012-07-03 19:53:56|Darren Bos|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|If all you need is 5 or 6 HP you can find lots of nice Honda engines for free or nearly free each spring if you live somewhere that freezes. I discovered this when looking for a used pressure washer this year. If not properly winterized the pumps freeze and destroy themselves, however the engines are fine. Most aren't worth the cost of paying someone else to repair, so you can get a nice honda engine for next to nothing on craigslist after then owner has discovered it no longer works as a pressure washer. Darren At 03:10 PM 02/07/2012, you wrote: > > >Generator or pump engine. Brigs and Stratton >works, and is cheaper ,but noisier. > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >"jhess314" wrote: > > > > Brent, > > What type of Honda engine are you/he talking > about? Auto, motorcycle, outboard...? > > John > > > > --- In > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > A friend, wathing cruisers in Mexico > struggle with their generators, is always > teling them. "Bolt a Honda engine and an > alternator to a piece of plywood. It will > charge your batteries, weld, and run your power > tools. If the alternator quits, a new one from > the auto wreckers will cost you $35. > > > > > > > | 28501|28485|2012-07-04 06:46:55|Carl Volkwein|Re: Loran-c navigation system|I found a site with a lot of radio stations on it but they're all Fm, so wouldn't be any good offshore, isn't there still a station in Honalulu that brodcasts in am? ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 12:22 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Loran-c navigation system   maybe it could still be usefull if there is a star war and all the satellites go out of service...lol Martin. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: maxcamirand@... > Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 09:15:12 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Loran-c navigation system > > I think there might still be some transmitters in Japan, but don't quote me > on that. More importantly, LORAN-C is junk compared to GPS, and there's no > point in using it. > > Regards, > Max > > On 1 July 2012 08:44, wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > > I just read last night that the Loran-c system is no longer in use in > > North America since 2010. Is it still in use in other parts of the world? > > I got a Loran receiver and antena in a bounch of parts I bought from > > someone and I'd like to know if I could do anything with it. > > > > thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28502|28485|2012-07-04 07:38:16|Maxime Camirand|Re: Loran-c navigation system|Why bother? GPS units are dirt-cheap, and if you want a backup (or don't want to use GPS at all), buy a sextant. Loran and RDF are going the way of Decca and Omega. I think the US is developping a new form of Loran (E-LORAN) because of the military vulnerability of GPS satellites and signals. It won't be compatible with your old receiver, though, and it's not in widespread use. I don't even know if there are civilian receivers for it. I would just buy a sextant :) On 4 July 2012 06:46, Carl Volkwein wrote: > ** > > > I found a site with a lot of radio stations on it but they're all Fm, so > wouldn't be any good offshore, isn't there still a station in Honalulu that > brodcasts in am? > > ________________________________ > From: martin demers > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 12:22 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Loran-c navigation system > > > > > > maybe it could still be usefull if there is a star war and all the > satellites go out of service...lol > Martin. > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: maxcamirand@... > > Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 09:15:12 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Loran-c navigation system > > > > I think there might still be some transmitters in Japan, but don't quote > me > > on that. More importantly, LORAN-C is junk compared to GPS, and there's > no > > point in using it. > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > On 1 July 2012 08:44, wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > I just read last night that the Loran-c system is no longer in use in > > > North America since 2010. Is it still in use in other parts of the > world? > > > I got a Loran receiver and antena in a bounch of parts I bought from > > > someone and I'd like to know if I could do anything with it. > > > > > > thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28503|28485|2012-07-04 09:14:19|Matt Malone|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|I found a list of AM radio stations from around the world: http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-query-broadcast-station-search Go to the bottom of that form, select "Text File (pipe delimited / no links)" and hit "Submit Data". You will have a list of 25,000 AM radio stations, and their lat/long, world wide. I have imported the list into a spreadsheet to find nearest stations given approximate lat/long. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: m_j_malone@... Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 19:18:06 -0400 Subject: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) The problem with Loran is they are shutting down the transmitters. I have one of these guys: http://radioace.com/files/images/DSCN2412A.jpg Bendix Radio Navigator 550 radio direction finder. It will tune to regular civilian AM radio stations. Now, yes, GPS is better but if we assume the transmitting antenna is not far from your destination, this gives a direction to go to your destination, no charting or computation needed. Donald Crowhurst made one that was hand-held for use in the cockpit. It was like a compass pointing to your destination. It seemed quite fool-proof and intuitive. Yes, an X on a map at your lat/long is wonderful and better, but if it is small and cheap... And there are a lot of AM radio stations. I found a list somewhere with the frequency, latitude and longitude of all AM stations in the world... when I find a link, I will post it. Better than Loran. Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28504|28485|2012-07-04 09:24:03|Maxime Camirand|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|Interesting, about the spreadsheet. Did you program the great circle math yourself? On 4 July 2012 09:14, Matt Malone wrote: > > > I found a list of AM radio stations from around the world: > > http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-query-broadcast-station-search > > Go to the bottom of that form, select "Text File (pipe delimited / no links)" and hit "Submit Data". > > You will have a list of 25,000 AM radio stations, and their lat/long, world wide.   I have imported the list into a spreadsheet to find nearest stations given approximate lat/long. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 19:18:06 -0400 > Subject: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with Loran is they are shutting down the transmitters.   I have one of these guys: > > > > http://radioace.com/files/images/DSCN2412A.jpg > > > > Bendix Radio Navigator 550 radio direction finder.   It will tune to regular civilian AM radio stations.   Now, yes, GPS is better but if we assume the transmitting antenna is not far from your destination, this gives a direction to go to your destination, no charting or computation needed.   Donald Crowhurst made one that was hand-held for use in the cockpit.  It was like a compass pointing to your destination.   It seemed quite fool-proof and intuitive.   Yes, an X on a map at your lat/long is wonderful and better, but if it is small and cheap...  And there are a lot of AM radio stations.  I found a list somewhere with the frequency, latitude and longitude of all AM stations in the world... when I find a link, I will post it. > > > > Better than Loran. > > > > Matt > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 28505|28485|2012-07-04 10:20:12|Matt Malone|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|No, did not bother... you can only receive most radio regular AM stations from a couple hundred, maybe 1000 miles away, so I used cos(latitude)*(difference in longitude) to scale the longitude differences to something proportional to ground distances measured in latitude degrees, and then sqrt((lat diff)^2 + (long diff)^2) to estimate a fair relative distance in latitude degrees. Multiply this by 60 and one has something (very) close to nautical miles if the numbers are small. So in essence, I did sort of a local projection based on the guessed lat/long. I also accounted for the across-the-international-date-line shorter distance. Really, one's input lat/long is approximate, and one is really interested in the 10 or so nearer radio stations, not just the one nearest. One of the 10 will be conveniently located for aiding the current navigational problem. I would imagine that one of them will be near a harbour or other useful point, and, drawing a range between the transmitter and an important nautical navigation aid, like a conspicuously lit fairway buoy, or a lighthouse or something, will provide an approach bearing to that aid that is clear of trouble until one sees the aid. All of this is dependent on having charts that show the trouble and good navigational analysis of the situation one is in etc. GPS is far superior when it is working well. Sextants are great when you can see something in the sky. When would I use it ? Well, it is a hands-fee device, assuming the antenna angle is set as in the example above. It produces sound I can play with cheap equipment in the cockpit -- a nearly disposable speaker. Perhaps I do not like the way my compass is swinging or taking time to settle, maybe it is choppy, maybe it is overcast and maybe I am working on my handheld GPS without the expensive mapping display, or navigate-toward-a-keypad-input-coordinate capability, and mentally subtracting or interpolating is distracting and leaving me with doubts about my math while my face is being washed with refreshing sea spray. Moment to moment, steering for the null in the sound is very easily done. The null in the sound, unlike a compass cannot swing or have momentum of its own, one has only the boat's momentum. Your brain can mentally average the sound as the boat yaws back and forth slightly in seas so you can feel you are, on average, on the right heading. Sure, once in a while focus on the compass, or go below to chart or whatever, but moment to moment, it requires little concentration to have confidence in where you are pointing. One can hear the music while adjusting sails, cooking, resting, using the binoculars, reading a book. It is easy to tell a non-numerical sailing mate to steer so the music is the quietest possible for a few minutes. And from the other end of the boat with your head down in the bilge, you can hear when they are steering off, and then steering back on. It is also very low power. It is not a replacement for anything, but one more element in my layers of confidence in navigation. If it even once gives me an unexpected result that drives me back to my sextant calculations to look for errors, or GPS & chart for plotting errors, it has served well. Remember, the more local something is, the bigger the measurements it will give me. It is something between seeing a buoy, which is very, absolutely local, and a sextant reading, which is really good at fixing big distances but not really good for really local stuff. And between times, it plays local radio. You never know, those stations might tell you something interesting, like the weather forecast, or about some local festival or news that is of importance to you. Just advancing through the radio stations along your route is another way to maintain a measure of progress. Why would you leave such a wonderful thing off of the boat ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: maxcamirand@... Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:23:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) Interesting, about the spreadsheet. Did you program the great circle math yourself? On 4 July 2012 09:14, Matt Malone wrote: > > > I found a list of AM radio stations from around the world: > > http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-query-broadcast-station-search > > Go to the bottom of that form, select "Text File (pipe delimited / no links)" and hit "Submit Data". > > You will have a list of 25,000 AM radio stations, and their lat/long, world wide. I have imported the list into a spreadsheet to find nearest stations given approximate lat/long. > > Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28506|28485|2012-07-04 10:28:18|Maxime Camirand|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|You're right, I can see more of a use for RDF than LORAN. It could be useful to establish a "leading bearing" of sorts to make landfall at a port, if you didn't want to (or couldn't) use GPS. I asked about the math because I have the perfect spreadsheet left over from an exercise in school, which could be easily adapted. Your plain sailing math is totally adequate for the ranges involved, though. I'm sure it was quite a bit of work anyway. You have to get it to abstract N/S, correctly convert angles to 000-359 degree bearings (even across the equator or datelines), etc. I remember it was fun to program. Regards, Max On 4 July 2012 10:20, Matt Malone wrote: > ** > > > > > No, did not bother... you can only receive most radio regular AM stations > from a couple hundred, maybe 1000 miles away, so I used > cos(latitude)*(difference in longitude) to scale the longitude differences > to something proportional to ground distances measured in latitude degrees, > and then sqrt((lat diff)^2 + (long diff)^2) to estimate a fair relative > distance in latitude degrees. Multiply this by 60 and one has something > (very) close to nautical miles if the numbers are small. So in essence, I > did sort of a local projection based on the guessed lat/long. I also > accounted for the across-the-international-date-line shorter distance. > Really, one's input lat/long is approximate, and one is really interested > in the 10 or so nearer radio stations, not just the one nearest. One of the > 10 will be conveniently located for aiding the current navigational > problem. > > I would imagine that one of them will be near a harbour or other useful > point, and, drawing a range between the transmitter and an important > nautical navigation aid, like a conspicuously lit fairway buoy, or a > lighthouse or something, will provide an approach bearing to that aid that > is clear of trouble until one sees the aid. All of this is dependent on > having charts that show the trouble and good navigational analysis of the > situation one is in etc. GPS is far superior when it is working well. > Sextants are great when you can see something in the sky. > > When would I use it ? Well, it is a hands-fee device, assuming the antenna > angle is set as in the example above. It produces sound I can play with > cheap equipment in the cockpit -- a nearly disposable speaker. Perhaps I do > not like the way my compass is swinging or taking time to settle, maybe it > is choppy, maybe it is overcast and maybe I am working on my handheld GPS > without the expensive mapping display, or > navigate-toward-a-keypad-input-coordinate capability, and mentally > subtracting or interpolating is distracting and leaving me with doubts > about my math while my face is being washed with refreshing sea spray. > Moment to moment, steering for the null in the sound is very easily done. > The null in the sound, unlike a compass cannot swing or have momentum of > its own, one has only the boat's momentum. Your brain can mentally average > the sound as the boat yaws back and forth slightly in seas so you can feel > you are, on average, on the right heading. Sure, once in a while focus on > the compass, or go below to chart or whatever, but moment to moment, it > requires little concentration to have confidence in where you are pointing. > One can hear the music while adjusting sails, cooking, resting, using the > binoculars, reading a book. It is easy to tell a non-numerical sailing mate > to steer so the music is the quietest possible for a few minutes. And from > the other end of the boat with your head down in the bilge, you can hear > when they are steering off, and then steering back on. > > It is also very low power. > > It is not a replacement for anything, but one more element in my layers of > confidence in navigation. If it even once gives me an unexpected result > that drives me back to my sextant calculations to look for errors, or GPS & > chart for plotting errors, it has served well. Remember, the more local > something is, the bigger the measurements it will give me. It is something > between seeing a buoy, which is very, absolutely local, and a sextant > reading, which is really good at fixing big distances but not really good > for really local stuff. > > And between times, it plays local radio. You never know, those stations > might tell you something interesting, like the weather forecast, or about > some local festival or news that is of importance to you. Just advancing > through the radio stations along your route is another way to maintain a > measure of progress. > > Why would you leave such a wonderful thing off of the boat ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: maxcamirand@... > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:23:43 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > Interesting, about the spreadsheet. Did you program the great circle > > math yourself? > > On 4 July 2012 09:14, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > I found a list of AM radio stations from around the world: > > > > > > http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-query-broadcast-station-search > > > > > > Go to the bottom of that form, select "Text File (pipe delimited / no > links)" and hit "Submit Data". > > > > > > You will have a list of 25,000 AM radio stations, and their lat/long, > world wide. I have imported the list into a spreadsheet to find nearest > stations given approximate lat/long. > > > > > > Matt > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28507|28371|2012-07-04 10:31:14|Maxime Camirand|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|Hi again, I haven't found a place to weld in-town, yet, but my neighbour is going to put me in touch with a guy who has a small ironwork shop. Meanwhile, a plan is forming for a build site: I think I'm going to follow a suggestion from the group: I'll find a farmer, or anyone else with a rural property, who'll rent me a spot in exchange for a little money, or some welding or other work. I got a quote of $1400, delivered, for a 20' shipping container. I'll use the container to lock in all my tools and to have a little workshop. I can weld up a really decent workbench in there, with a vise, bench grinder, drill press, etc. I'll buy everything used and resell most of it (including the shipping container) after the build. If I start in spring 2013, I think could have the hull pulled together, welded, decked, detailed before it gets too cold to work outside. Then over the winter I could work on some interior stuff, with a space heater to make it somewhat comfortable. I could also make parts inside the container, again with a space heater to at least bring it to a workable temperature. Around Montreal, it's doable to work outside from April to October, approx. That's 7 workable months. I expect to put 8-9 full days of labor per month into the boat, so call it 60 full working days, if you include a few odd extra days in November. How far should I be able to get in this time? I would hire help to pull the hull together, and maybe get a few days of welding help here and there. A friend of mine is an excellent woodworker, as well, but I don't want him anywhere near the project, or he'll try to make everything perfect and I'll be at it for years. I'm a newbie welder, myself. Regards, Max On 18 June 2012 11:37, Maxime Camirand wrote: > Hi group, > > I got lots of good recommendations on here and via email. Looks like I'll > get a dual-voltage (110/220) inverter welder. Most of them also do TIG if I > want to play around with that. $300 at most. > > That would let me do most of the pre-build detailing. In terms of a place to > work, I've got a few leads for metalworking artists and craftsmen who might > like to share shop space with a hobbyist like myself. They're within 15 > minutes walking distance. We'll see what they want to charge. If it's more > than a hundred or so a month, it's not really worth it, because then I could > dispense with doing all the work myself and just buy anchors, windlass etc > for the price of the rent. > > Regards, > Max > > On 17 June 2012 02:15, haidan wrote: >> >> >> >> There is much more noise generated by the grinding and cutting either with >> zip disks or a plasma than the ping of a chipping hammer, and on with stick >> welding stainless you barely need to chip it, it tends to fly off at you >> with a vengeance. >> >> > | 28508|28485|2012-07-04 13:43:14|M.J. Malone|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|As with all navigation aids, RDF can be applied imaginatively with others. For instance set the RDF for a radio station from a port town, exact co-location of the transmitter and port is not important here. Set the depth sounder to alarm at 200m, or whatever the off-shore shelf is in the area. Then follow the radio in until the depth alarms, you know you are an hour or two from port. Great for getting some sleep while the less mathematically-inclined navigator has the helm. There is no need to go to a transmitter. Set the null antenna abeam, hold a compass course, when the radio goes silent you are abeam of the tower. At this point, knowing from GPS how far you are off-shore, hold the tower abeam and sail an arc around a headland. Leeway will cause it to be a slight spiral unless you set the antenna to account for it. Alternately, set the windvane and the antenna for a heading to a port and turn the radio way up, and take some rest while a crewmate watches for big ships. If you are roused by the radio screaming at you, either there has been a wind shift, or you are drifting off a line to the antenna. One RDF bearing and a compass heading, provided they are not too closely aligned, can give a reasonable fix. A "local chart" with tower locations that do not quite correspond with lat-longs in the list can warn of GPS offsets owing to a different NAD or WGS being used on the chart. That is before reaching the buoy or rock with GPS coordinates that do not match the chart. Mostly I like the low-tech redundancy and cheap but navigationally-complex audible queues that RDF might provide. In takes a pretty nice GPS system or compass to yell at me when I want them to. If we thing about the information provided by different navigation systems in an analogy to taking a fix by sightings to visible targets, RDF provides information that is so different that it is like a sight line cutting at right angles through the others. It provides information from a very different perspective. All it is is a cheap AM radio with an antenna one might even wind themselves. Matt Maxime Camirand wrote: You're right, I can see more of a use for RDF than LORAN. It could be useful to establish a "leading bearing" of sorts to make landfall at a port, if you didn't want to (or couldn't) use GPS. I asked about the math because I have the perfect spreadsheet left over from an exercise in school, which could be easily adapted. Your plain sailing math is totally adequate for the ranges involved, though. I'm sure it was quite a bit of work anyway. You have to get it to abstract N/S, correctly convert angles to 000-359 degree bearings (even across the equator or datelines), etc. I remember it was fun to program. Regards, Max On 4 July 2012 10:20, Matt Malone wrote: > ** > > > > > No, did not bother... you can only receive most radio regular AM stations > from a couple hundred, maybe 1000 miles away, so I used > cos(latitude)*(difference in longitude) to scale the longitude differences > to something proportional to ground distances measured in latitude degrees, > and then sqrt((lat diff)^2 + (long diff)^2) to estimate a fair relative > distance in latitude degrees. Multiply this by 60 and one has something > (very) close to nautical miles if the numbers are small. So in essence, I > did sort of a local projection based on the guessed lat/long. I also > accounted for the across-the-international-date-line shorter distance. > Really, one's input lat/long is approximate, and one is really interested > in the 10 or so nearer radio stations, not just the one nearest. One of the > 10 will be conveniently located for aiding the current navigational > problem. > > I would imagine that one of them will be near a harbour or other useful > point, and, drawing a range between the transmitter and an important > nautical navigation aid, like a conspicuously lit fairway buoy, or a > lighthouse or something, will provide an approach bearing to that aid that > is clear of trouble until one sees the aid. All of this is dependent on > having charts that show the trouble and good navigational analysis of the > situation one is in etc. GPS is far superior when it is working well. > Sextants are great when you can see something in the sky. > > When would I use it ? Well, it is a hands-fee device, assuming the antenna > angle is set as in the example above. It produces sound I can play with > cheap equipment in the cockpit -- a nearly disposable speaker. Perhaps I do > not like the way my compass is swinging or taking time to settle, maybe it > is choppy, maybe it is overcast and maybe I am working on my handheld GPS > without the expensive mapping display, or > navigate-toward-a-keypad-input-coordinate capability, and mentally > subtracting or interpolating is distracting and leaving me with doubts > about my math while my face is being washed with refreshing sea spray. > Moment to moment, steering for the null in the sound is very easily done. > The null in the sound, unlike a compass cannot swing or have momentum of > its own, one has only the boat's momentum. Your brain can mentally average > the sound as the boat yaws back and forth slightly in seas so you can feel > you are, on average, on the right heading. Sure, once in a while focus on > the compass, or go below to chart or whatever, but moment to moment, it > requires little concentration to have confidence in where you are pointing. > One can hear the music while adjusting sails, cooking, resting, using the > binoculars, reading a book. It is easy to tell a non-numerical sailing mate > to steer so the music is the quietest possible for a few minutes. And from > the other end of the boat with your head down in the bilge, you can hear > when they are steering off, and then steering back on. > > It is also very low power. > > It is not a replacement for anything, but one more element in my layers of > confidence in navigation. If it even once gives me an unexpected result > that drives me back to my sextant calculations to look for errors, or GPS & > chart for plotting errors, it has served well. Remember, the more local > something is, the bigger the measurements it will give me. It is something > between seeing a buoy, which is very, absolutely local, and a sextant > reading, which is really good at fixing big distances but not really good > for really local stuff. > > And between times, it plays local radio. You never know, those stations > might tell you something interesting, like the weather forecast, or about > some local festival or news that is of importance to you. Just advancing > through the radio stations along your route is another way to maintain a > measure of progress. > > Why would you leave such a wonderful thing off of the boat ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: maxcamirand@... > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:23:43 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > Interesting, about the spreadsheet. Did you program the great circle > > math yourself? > > On 4 July 2012 09:14, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > I found a list of AM radio stations from around the world: > > > > > > http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-query-broadcast-station-search > > > > > > Go to the bottom of that form, select "Text File (pipe delimited / no > links)" and hit "Submit Data". > > > > > > You will have a list of 25,000 AM radio stations, and their lat/long, > world wide. I have imported the list into a spreadsheet to find nearest > stations given approximate lat/long. > > > > > > Matt > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 28509|28459|2012-07-04 14:03:57|brentswain38|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|5 or 6 hp will give you a charger which will also run your power tools, but welding takes around ten HP. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > If all you need is 5 or 6 HP you can find lots of > nice Honda engines for free or nearly free each > spring if you live somewhere that freezes. I > discovered this when looking for a used pressure > washer this year. If not properly winterized the > pumps freeze and destroy themselves, however the > engines are fine. Most aren't worth the cost of > paying someone else to repair, so you can get a > nice honda engine for next to nothing on > craigslist after then owner has discovered it no > longer works as a pressure washer. > > Darren > > At 03:10 PM 02/07/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Generator or pump engine. Brigs and Stratton > >works, and is cheaper ,but noisier. > > > >--- In > >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > >"jhess314" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > What type of Honda engine are you/he talking > > about? Auto, motorcycle, outboard...? > > > John > > > > > > --- In > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > A friend, wathing cruisers in Mexico > > struggle with their generators, is always > > teling them. "Bolt a Honda engine and an > > alternator to a piece of plywood. It will > > charge your batteries, weld, and run your power > > tools. If the alternator quits, a new one from > > the auto wreckers will cost you $35. > > > > > > > > > > > > | 28510|28485|2012-07-04 14:09:41|brentswain38|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|US charts have the positions of AM stations on them, so you can get a good radio line of sight from commercial radio stations there. On my first run down the coast I used such stations to get me into Frisco. No such thing as GPS, nor satnav back then, and loran was far too expensive for me. Heading from Frisco to the Marquesas they lasted for about 300 miles off the coast before they started to fade. Thats when I started to figure out celestial navigation. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > No, did not bother... you can only receive most radio regular AM stations from a couple hundred, maybe 1000 miles away, so I used cos(latitude)*(difference in longitude) to scale the longitude differences to something proportional to ground distances measured in latitude degrees, and then sqrt((lat diff)^2 + (long diff)^2) to estimate a fair relative distance in latitude degrees. Multiply this by 60 and one has something (very) close to nautical miles if the numbers are small. So in essence, I did sort of a local projection based on the guessed lat/long. I also accounted for the across-the-international-date-line shorter distance. Really, one's input lat/long is approximate, and one is really interested in the 10 or so nearer radio stations, not just the one nearest. One of the 10 will be conveniently located for aiding the current navigational problem. > > I would imagine that one of them will be near a harbour or other useful point, and, drawing a range between the transmitter and an important nautical navigation aid, like a conspicuously lit fairway buoy, or a lighthouse or something, will provide an approach bearing to that aid that is clear of trouble until one sees the aid. All of this is dependent on having charts that show the trouble and good navigational analysis of the situation one is in etc. GPS is far superior when it is working well. Sextants are great when you can see something in the sky. > > When would I use it ? Well, it is a hands-fee device, assuming the antenna angle is set as in the example above. It produces sound I can play with cheap equipment in the cockpit -- a nearly disposable speaker. Perhaps I do not like the way my compass is swinging or taking time to settle, maybe it is choppy, maybe it is overcast and maybe I am working on my handheld GPS without the expensive mapping display, or navigate-toward-a-keypad-input-coordinate capability, and mentally subtracting or interpolating is distracting and leaving me with doubts about my math while my face is being washed with refreshing sea spray. Moment to moment, steering for the null in the sound is very easily done. The null in the sound, unlike a compass cannot swing or have momentum of its own, one has only the boat's momentum. Your brain can mentally average the sound as the boat yaws back and forth slightly in seas so you can feel you are, on average, on the right heading. Sure, once in a while focus on the compass, or go below to chart or whatever, but moment to moment, it requires little concentration to have confidence in where you are pointing. One can hear the music while adjusting sails, cooking, resting, using the binoculars, reading a book. It is easy to tell a non-numerical sailing mate to steer so the music is the quietest possible for a few minutes. And from the other end of the boat with your head down in the bilge, you can hear when they are steering off, and then steering back on. > > It is also very low power. > > It is not a replacement for anything, but one more element in my layers of confidence in navigation. If it even once gives me an unexpected result that drives me back to my sextant calculations to look for errors, or GPS & chart for plotting errors, it has served well. Remember, the more local something is, the bigger the measurements it will give me. It is something between seeing a buoy, which is very, absolutely local, and a sextant reading, which is really good at fixing big distances but not really good for really local stuff. > > And between times, it plays local radio. You never know, those stations might tell you something interesting, like the weather forecast, or about some local festival or news that is of importance to you. Just advancing through the radio stations along your route is another way to maintain a measure of progress. > > Why would you leave such a wonderful thing off of the boat ? > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: maxcamirand@... > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:23:43 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting, about the spreadsheet. Did you program the great circle > > math yourself? > > > > On 4 July 2012 09:14, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > I found a list of AM radio stations from around the world: > > > > > > http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-query-broadcast-station-search > > > > > > Go to the bottom of that form, select "Text File (pipe delimited / no links)" and hit "Submit Data". > > > > > > You will have a list of 25,000 AM radio stations, and their lat/long, world wide. I have imported the list into a spreadsheet to find nearest stations given approximate lat/long. > > > > > > Matt > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28511|28371|2012-07-04 14:14:53|brentswain38|Re: Welding boat parts in a city|Sounds like a good plan. I built a 36 footer in Winnipeg in 2003. I was there for three weeks, and worked long days. At the end of three wekks we had almost all the steelwork done, fully detailed, including the mast. He had a welder do the welding when I was relaxing, and he had most of the welding also done in that time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > Hi again, > > I haven't found a place to weld in-town, yet, but my neighbour is > going to put me in touch with a guy who has a small ironwork shop. > Meanwhile, a plan is forming for a build site: > > I think I'm going to follow a suggestion from the group: I'll find a > farmer, or anyone else with a rural property, who'll rent me a spot in > exchange for a little money, or some welding or other work. I got a > quote of $1400, delivered, for a 20' shipping container. I'll use the > container to lock in all my tools and to have a little workshop. I can > weld up a really decent workbench in there, with a vise, bench > grinder, drill press, etc. I'll buy everything used and resell most of > it (including the shipping container) after the build. > > If I start in spring 2013, I think could have the hull pulled > together, welded, decked, detailed before it gets too cold to work > outside. Then over the winter I could work on some interior stuff, > with a space heater to make it somewhat comfortable. I could also make > parts inside the container, again with a space heater to at least > bring it to a workable temperature. > > Around Montreal, it's doable to work outside from April to October, > approx. That's 7 workable months. I expect to put 8-9 full days of > labor per month into the boat, so call it 60 full working days, if you > include a few odd extra days in November. How far should I be able to > get in this time? I would hire help to pull the hull together, and > maybe get a few days of welding help here and there. A friend of mine > is an excellent woodworker, as well, but I don't want him anywhere > near the project, or he'll try to make everything perfect and I'll be > at it for years. I'm a newbie welder, myself. > > Regards, > Max > > On 18 June 2012 11:37, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > Hi group, > > > > I got lots of good recommendations on here and via email. Looks like I'll > > get a dual-voltage (110/220) inverter welder. Most of them also do TIG if I > > want to play around with that. $300 at most. > > > > That would let me do most of the pre-build detailing. In terms of a place to > > work, I've got a few leads for metalworking artists and craftsmen who might > > like to share shop space with a hobbyist like myself. They're within 15 > > minutes walking distance. We'll see what they want to charge. If it's more > > than a hundred or so a month, it's not really worth it, because then I could > > dispense with doing all the work myself and just buy anchors, windlass etc > > for the price of the rent. > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > On 17 June 2012 02:15, haidan wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> There is much more noise generated by the grinding and cutting either with > >> zip disks or a plasma than the ping of a chipping hammer, and on with stick > >> welding stainless you barely need to chip it, it tends to fly off at you > >> with a vengeance. > >> > >> > > > | 28512|28485|2012-07-04 14:49:51|Mark Hamill|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|There is an International Loran Society that has info on eLoran etc. http://www.loran.org/index.html Google " marine RDF for sale ". Most older navigation texts have some good tips on RDF further to Brents's suggestion for use. I think using the more traditional navigation methods puts back some of the fun in sailing. Its like some people say, " Sail everywhere and don't use your motor." MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28513|28459|2012-07-04 17:44:21|Paul Wilson|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|On 4/07/2012 4:11 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > I didn't learn this til later on-- after using the small engine and > alternator for quite a while but somebody suggested sizing all the > pulley widths so that the RPM of the alternator on the small engine > setup matched that of an auto engine just to ensure it was charging at > its maximum. Haven't done it--but it was suggested. And as Brent > pointed out--the Briggs and Stratton are noisy which is why I > suggested a larger muffler--which I also have not done--I just leave > the boat and go for a walk. MarkH Good point. Assuming 3 to 1 ratio you need probably 1000 rpm on an engine or 3000 rpm on an alternator to get anywhere close to full output. Going higher than that, you won't get much more output but you will have better cooling from the fan. If using an alternator in an enclosed space, it also might be worth adding forced air cooling to it via a shroud. I did that to my 100 amp alternator using some metal sheet with a 3 inch diameter cooling duct going to a small bilge blower. Cheers, Paul| 28514|28485|2012-07-04 18:29:30|Paul Wilson|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|Nobody uses RDF anymore because it was notorious for giving errors...the radio signals bounce off mountains and buildings. Use your gps and don't waste your time and money on old obsolete technology that will steer you onto the rocks. Aircraft were using RDF a lot up north where there were few other nav aids or offshore when trying to find a beacon on a drill rig but much less so now. Most pilots know what really works use waypoints and ignore RDF. Loran is long gone.....I would be surprised if anyone was still using it although someone said Japan still is???? The land stations were expensive to operate and as soon as GPS was fully operational were quickly phased out. There are alternate systems to offer redundancy to GPS.... the Russians Glonass is operational. The EU's Galileo is coming. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation If you are really worried about GPS buy a Glonass receiver. Go on Ebay and search Glonass and a few units come up. Garmin makes an Etrex Glonass for a few hundred dollars. Cheers, Paul On 5/07/2012 6:50 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > There is an International Loran Society that has info on eLoran etc. > http://www.loran.org/index.html > > Google " marine RDF for sale ". > Most older navigation texts have some good tips on RDF further to > Brents's suggestion for use. I think using the more traditional > navigation methods puts back some of the fun in sailing. Its like some > people say, " Sail everywhere and don't use your motor." > > MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 28515|28459|2012-07-04 19:59:54|brentswain38|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|A six inch pulley on the engine doing 2500 rpm was nowhere near the output of a 9 inch pulley on the same engine and alternator. Gojng from 9 inch to ten seems an improvement in output. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > On 4/07/2012 4:11 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > I didn't learn this til later on-- after using the small engine and > > alternator for quite a while but somebody suggested sizing all the > > pulley widths so that the RPM of the alternator on the small engine > > setup matched that of an auto engine just to ensure it was charging at > > its maximum. Haven't done it--but it was suggested. And as Brent > > pointed out--the Briggs and Stratton are noisy which is why I > > suggested a larger muffler--which I also have not done--I just leave > > the boat and go for a walk. MarkH > > Good point. Assuming 3 to 1 ratio you need probably 1000 rpm on an > engine or 3000 rpm on an alternator to get anywhere close to full > output. Going higher than that, you won't get much more output but you > will have better cooling from the fan. If using an alternator in an > enclosed space, it also might be worth adding forced air cooling to it > via a shroud. I did that to my 100 amp alternator using some metal > sheet with a 3 inch diameter cooling duct going to a small bilge blower. > > Cheers, Paul > | 28516|28459|2012-07-04 20:54:39|Gord Schnell|Re: AC vs DC diesel generators|That is because (pi x D) pi = 3,14 Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2012-07-04, at 4:59 PM, "brentswain38" wrote: > A six inch pulley on the engine doing 2500 rpm was nowhere near the output of a 9 inch pulley on the same engine and alternator. Gojng from 9 inch to ten seems an improvement in output. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > On 4/07/2012 4:11 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > > I didn't learn this til later on-- after using the small engine and > > > alternator for quite a while but somebody suggested sizing all the > > > pulley widths so that the RPM of the alternator on the small engine > > > setup matched that of an auto engine just to ensure it was charging at > > > its maximum. Haven't done it--but it was suggested. And as Brent > > > pointed out--the Briggs and Stratton are noisy which is why I > > > suggested a larger muffler--which I also have not done--I just leave > > > the boat and go for a walk. MarkH > > > > Good point. Assuming 3 to 1 ratio you need probably 1000 rpm on an > > engine or 3000 rpm on an alternator to get anywhere close to full > > output. Going higher than that, you won't get much more output but you > > will have better cooling from the fan. If using an alternator in an > > enclosed space, it also might be worth adding forced air cooling to it > > via a shroud. I did that to my 100 amp alternator using some metal > > sheet with a 3 inch diameter cooling duct going to a small bilge blower. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28517|28485|2012-07-05 01:43:09|Maxime Camirand|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|Hi Matt, Respectfully, I would not use any of the "navigation" techniques you described in your last email. Geometrically, they are all correct, but they don't properly take into account the possibility of failure of the devices. Good seamanship means aiming for redundancy. If you follow a radio leading line of sorts, and set a depth alarm to wake you, you are screwed if either one of those two devices fails you, for whatever reason. This means that you are actually more likely to get screwed than if you were relying on only one of those devices. Both RDF and depth sounders have a lot of failure modes. Really, this is not a problem of reliability of these two devices as much as a lack of understanding of what consists good navigation and good seamanship. You can't look at it like a paper geometry problem, because then you will arrive at paper solutions that will put you on the rocks sooner or later. Regards, Max On 4 July 2012 13:42, M.J. Malone wrote: > ** > > > As with all navigation aids, RDF can be applied imaginatively with others. > > For instance set the RDF for a radio station from a port town, exact > co-location of the transmitter and port is not important here. Set the > depth sounder to alarm at 200m, or whatever the off-shore shelf is in the > area. Then follow the radio in until the depth alarms, you know you are an > hour or two from port. Great for getting some sleep while the less > mathematically-inclined navigator has the helm. > > There is no need to go to a transmitter. Set the null antenna abeam, hold > a compass course, when the radio goes silent you are abeam of the tower. > > At this point, knowing from GPS how far you are off-shore, hold the tower > abeam and sail an arc around a headland. Leeway will cause it to be a > slight spiral unless you set the antenna to account for it. > > Alternately, set the windvane and the antenna for a heading to a port and > turn the radio way up, and take some rest while a crewmate watches for big > ships. If you are roused by the radio screaming at you, either there has > been a wind shift, or you are drifting off a line to the antenna. > > One RDF bearing and a compass heading, provided they are not too closely > aligned, can give a reasonable fix. > > A "local chart" with tower locations that do not quite correspond with > lat-longs in the list can warn of GPS offsets owing to a different NAD or > WGS being used on the chart. That is before reaching the buoy or rock with > GPS coordinates that do not match the chart. > > Mostly I like the low-tech redundancy and cheap but navigationally-complex > audible queues that RDF might provide. In takes a pretty nice GPS system or > compass to yell at me when I want them to. > > If we thing about the information provided by different navigation systems > in an analogy to taking a fix by sightings to visible targets, RDF provides > information that is so different that it is like a sight line cutting at > right angles through the others. It provides information from a very > different perspective. > > All it is is a cheap AM radio with an antenna one might even wind > themselves. > > Matt > > > Maxime Camirand wrote: > > You're right, I can see more of a use for RDF than LORAN. It could be > useful to establish a "leading bearing" of sorts to make landfall at a > port, if you didn't want to (or couldn't) use GPS. I asked about the math > because I have the perfect spreadsheet left over from an exercise in > school, which could be easily adapted. Your plain sailing math is totally > adequate for the ranges involved, though. I'm sure it was quite a bit of > work anyway. You have to get it to abstract N/S, correctly convert angles > to 000-359 degree bearings (even across the equator or datelines), etc. I > remember it was fun to program. > > Regards, > Max > > On 4 July 2012 10:20, Matt Malone wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > No, did not bother... you can only receive most radio regular AM stations > > from a couple hundred, maybe 1000 miles away, so I used > > cos(latitude)*(difference in longitude) to scale the longitude > differences > > to something proportional to ground distances measured in latitude > degrees, > > and then sqrt((lat diff)^2 + (long diff)^2) to estimate a fair relative > > distance in latitude degrees. Multiply this by 60 and one has something > > (very) close to nautical miles if the numbers are small. So in essence, I > > did sort of a local projection based on the guessed lat/long. I also > > accounted for the across-the-international-date-line shorter distance. > > Really, one's input lat/long is approximate, and one is really interested > > in the 10 or so nearer radio stations, not just the one nearest. One of > the > > 10 will be conveniently located for aiding the current navigational > > problem. > > > > I would imagine that one of them will be near a harbour or other useful > > point, and, drawing a range between the transmitter and an important > > nautical navigation aid, like a conspicuously lit fairway buoy, or a > > lighthouse or something, will provide an approach bearing to that aid > that > > is clear of trouble until one sees the aid. All of this is dependent on > > having charts that show the trouble and good navigational analysis of the > > situation one is in etc. GPS is far superior when it is working well. > > Sextants are great when you can see something in the sky. > > > > When would I use it ? Well, it is a hands-fee device, assuming the > antenna > > angle is set as in the example above. It produces sound I can play with > > cheap equipment in the cockpit -- a nearly disposable speaker. Perhaps I > do > > not like the way my compass is swinging or taking time to settle, maybe > it > > is choppy, maybe it is overcast and maybe I am working on my handheld GPS > > without the expensive mapping display, or > > navigate-toward-a-keypad-input-coordinate capability, and mentally > > subtracting or interpolating is distracting and leaving me with doubts > > about my math while my face is being washed with refreshing sea spray. > > Moment to moment, steering for the null in the sound is very easily done. > > The null in the sound, unlike a compass cannot swing or have momentum of > > its own, one has only the boat's momentum. Your brain can mentally > average > > the sound as the boat yaws back and forth slightly in seas so you can > feel > > you are, on average, on the right heading. Sure, once in a while focus on > > the compass, or go below to chart or whatever, but moment to moment, it > > requires little concentration to have confidence in where you are > pointing. > > One can hear the music while adjusting sails, cooking, resting, using the > > binoculars, reading a book. It is easy to tell a non-numerical sailing > mate > > to steer so the music is the quietest possible for a few minutes. And > from > > the other end of the boat with your head down in the bilge, you can hear > > when they are steering off, and then steering back on. > > > > It is also very low power. > > > > It is not a replacement for anything, but one more element in my layers > of > > confidence in navigation. If it even once gives me an unexpected result > > that drives me back to my sextant calculations to look for errors, or > GPS & > > chart for plotting errors, it has served well. Remember, the more local > > something is, the bigger the measurements it will give me. It is > something > > between seeing a buoy, which is very, absolutely local, and a sextant > > reading, which is really good at fixing big distances but not really good > > for really local stuff. > > > > And between times, it plays local radio. You never know, those stations > > might tell you something interesting, like the weather forecast, or about > > some local festival or news that is of importance to you. Just advancing > > through the radio stations along your route is another way to maintain a > > measure of progress. > > > > Why would you leave such a wonderful thing off of the boat ? > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: maxcamirand@... > > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:23:43 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > Interesting, about the spreadsheet. Did you program the great circle > > > > math yourself? > > > > On 4 July 2012 09:14, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a list of AM radio stations from around the world: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-query-broadcast-station-search > > > > > > > > > > Go to the bottom of that form, select "Text File (pipe delimited / no > > links)" and hit "Submit Data". > > > > > > > > > > You will have a list of 25,000 AM radio stations, and their lat/long, > > world wide. I have imported the list into a spreadsheet to find nearest > > stations given approximate lat/long. > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28518|28485|2012-07-05 09:13:12|Matt Malone|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|OK, Paul wrote: "Nobody uses RDF anymore because it was notorious for giving errors...the radio signals bounce off mountains and buildings." This is true, this can happen, if there are geometrically significant mountains / buildings nearby. The unstated in the assumption was, we are dealing with a transmitter on an island / coast, and you have an otherwise clear line of sight to it over water only. While it is a lot more difficult for it to happen, GPS signals also bounce off metal buildings and give ghost positions -- a colleague designs aircraft nav systems for a big aerospace company and this is a big problem, surprisingly, at airports where there are a lot of hangars. If you are "near" shore with a lot of metal buildings that are comparable to the size of hangars, you should watch your GPS too. Yes, these are all geometrically-inspired. If a depth sounder cannot be relied upon to alarm some time over the course of an "hour or two" when one is in 100 feet, or 50 feet or 30 feet of water, when it is set for 600 feet / 200m, then, it is a hazard and has no place on a boat. I never said, set the alarm for 20 feet, when I expect to approach an island with a bottom that goes from hundreds of feet to reefs very quickly. Built into that scenario is, even if the depth sounder fails to measure depth properly at the first occurrence of water less than 600 feet, the bottom is constantly changing for an "hour or two". If your depth sounder can go an hour or two in shallower-than-alarm setting water without ONCE alarming, you have a serious equipment failure. Then there is still someone at the helm in that scenario. Did I say that no one would DR the expected time, and communicate this to the person on watch ? Did I say that no other instructions at all would be given to the person on the helm ? Do I have to explain everything ? Did I ever say ignore the compass or GPS or other devices completely ? Absolutely not ! "Sure, once in a while focus on the compass, or go below to chart or whatever, but moment to moment, it (RDF) requires little concentration to have confidence in where you are pointing." That seems to be what I said. Confidence in how one is pointing, moment to moment. How often is "once in a while"... well, using good navigation common sense, far more often than the expected travel time from where you last GPSed yourself to the nearest rocks... So if you are an hour away from any rocks, and check the GPS every 10 minutes, what is the problem ? If you are seconds away from rocks, should the boat take the wrong heading in a narrow channel, that is a completely different situation. And if you expect there is any chance that you are close enough to any kind of rocks that you expect the conditions will make otherwise completely undetectable, then this has elevated from a navigation problem with many options where imagination and simple geometry is useful, to one where everything available, including stopping and waiting for the conditions to change, or changing plans entirely, should be used. And this one: >> A "local chart" with tower locations that do not quite correspond with > > lat-longs in the list can warn of GPS offsets owing to a different NAD or > > WGS being used on the chart. That is before reaching the buoy or rock with > > GPS coordinates that do not match the chart. Does not rely on any piece of equipment. This is comparing data from two different sources to see if they are consistent. Inconsistencies can tell you to EXPECT inconsistencies between GPS readings and lat/long on the chart. This can happen. Geeze, how many times have I heard inland water people say that a rock moved because their GPS told them it was in the wrong spot. If the channel is less than 200m wide, or clearances to hazards are less than 100m, I would be awfully cautious of relying on GPS, even in well-surveyed North American waters. Yes, yes, GPS is good to a few meters -- most of the time. How many times have I looked back at the track on my GPS and sometime during the trip, and my boat apparently jumped 30m to the side at some point. Brent indicated that he had found RDF useful sometimes up to 300 miles off-shore. Just to be clear, in all of these, I assumed that one is miles off-shore or from those dreaded rocks, where one has options, and RDF just provides an easier way to point the boat to something that is not necessarily either a compass direction or a straight line. Go ahead, pre-compute the GPS waypoints and compass directions for a circular arc and try to follow them without a graphical display in the cockpit. Is that a $10,000 system now? And when you are not looking at the display, it is not giving you information. If you have autohelm linked to your GPS-based nav (gasp, someone might suggest you might stop looking at the instruments all together and call that seamanship) then just turn on a regular radio for the news. Something that is making sound gives you information when you are not looking at it. I am going to say it again, so, no one misunderstands: "Sure, once in a while focus on the compass, or go below to chart or whatever, but moment to moment, it (RDF) requires little concentration to have confidence in where you are pointing." Plotting the GPS coordinates of where you actually ARE is far easier, and requires only the least expensive, hand-held GPS gear. If your X's are veering off that circular arc you drew on your paper chart as your intended path (using RDF to point), then change what you are doing ! If you look at your compass and your heading is much different than you expected, change what you are doing. Checking something against expectations can be much easier than using it as a moment-to-moment pointing aid. Maintaining good pointing makes it more likely one will more closely follow intended paths. If one relies on RDF for something other than pointing in proximity to hazards, or has failed to mark an intended path, compute DR positions and times, identify hazards near the path, and is not double checking their actual position against their DR path on some schedule proportional to proximity to hazards, then, yes, there is a problem with good seamanship. Back in the day when people navigated in all weather, 24 hours a day by radio fixes alone, yes, there were lots of problems. Uncertainties in bearings to stations owing to a number of factors, including the boat yawing, and internal reflections from stuff in the boat, and geometrical plotting problems brought on by angles too close to zero or 180 degrees and reflections from external things like mountains, could place fixes off-position by a good fraction of the distance to the stations. This could easily be many miles. > > One RDF bearing and a compass heading, provided they are not too closely > > aligned, can give a reasonable fix. Never said a good fix. Never said a good fix near rocks. If the station is on the nearest coast, and you are 200 miles out, and expected arrival is tomorrow, how exactly does one need to know where they are ? Not sure why anyone would use this at all in the presence of a functioning GPS, just saying these are lines one can draw on a chart. Knowing one can do that, and knowing the expected errors is a layer to seamanship. RDF without any GPS, ever, even miles offshore is going back in time to a more dangerous time to sail. I never suggested that. If anyone finds themselves in that position, then appropriate prudence is warranted. RDF is just a cheap, easy tool with so many uses in combination with inexpensive modern gear. One criticism no one raised is, a civilian AM station can change the location from which they transmit and the reference data you are using may not reflect that change. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: maxcamirand@... > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 01:42:47 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > Hi Matt, > > Respectfully, I would not use any of the "navigation" techniques you > described in your last email. Geometrically, they are all correct, but they > don't properly take into account the possibility of failure of the devices. > Good seamanship means aiming for redundancy. If you follow a radio leading > line of sorts, and set a depth alarm to wake you, you are screwed if either > one of those two devices fails you, for whatever reason. This means that > you are actually more likely to get screwed than if you were relying on > only one of those devices. Both RDF and depth sounders have a lot of > failure modes. > > Really, this is not a problem of reliability of these two devices as much > as a lack of understanding of what consists good navigation and good > seamanship. You can't look at it like a paper geometry problem, because > then you will arrive at paper solutions that will put you on the rocks > sooner or later. > > Regards, > Max > > On 4 July 2012 13:42, M.J. Malone wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > As with all navigation aids, RDF can be applied imaginatively with others. > > > > For instance set the RDF for a radio station from a port town, exact > > co-location of the transmitter and port is not important here. Set the > > depth sounder to alarm at 200m, or whatever the off-shore shelf is in the > > area. Then follow the radio in until the depth alarms, you know you are an > > hour or two from port. Great for getting some sleep while the less > > mathematically-inclined navigator has the helm. > > > > There is no need to go to a transmitter. Set the null antenna abeam, hold > > a compass course, when the radio goes silent you are abeam of the tower. > > > > At this point, knowing from GPS how far you are off-shore, hold the tower > > abeam and sail an arc around a headland. Leeway will cause it to be a > > slight spiral unless you set the antenna to account for it. > > > > Alternately, set the windvane and the antenna for a heading to a port and > > turn the radio way up, and take some rest while a crewmate watches for big > > ships. If you are roused by the radio screaming at you, either there has > > been a wind shift, or you are drifting off a line to the antenna. > > > > One RDF bearing and a compass heading, provided they are not too closely > > aligned, can give a reasonable fix. > > > > A "local chart" with tower locations that do not quite correspond with > > lat-longs in the list can warn of GPS offsets owing to a different NAD or > > WGS being used on the chart. That is before reaching the buoy or rock with > > GPS coordinates that do not match the chart. > > > > Mostly I like the low-tech redundancy and cheap but navigationally-complex > > audible queues that RDF might provide. In takes a pretty nice GPS system or > > compass to yell at me when I want them to. > > > > If we thing about the information provided by different navigation systems > > in an analogy to taking a fix by sightings to visible targets, RDF provides > > information that is so different that it is like a sight line cutting at > > right angles through the others. It provides information from a very > > different perspective. > > > > All it is is a cheap AM radio with an antenna one might even wind > > themselves. > > > > Matt > > > > > > Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > > You're right, I can see more of a use for RDF than LORAN. It could be > > useful to establish a "leading bearing" of sorts to make landfall at a > > port, if you didn't want to (or couldn't) use GPS. I asked about the math > > because I have the perfect spreadsheet left over from an exercise in > > school, which could be easily adapted. Your plain sailing math is totally > > adequate for the ranges involved, though. I'm sure it was quite a bit of > > work anyway. You have to get it to abstract N/S, correctly convert angles > > to 000-359 degree bearings (even across the equator or datelines), etc. I > > remember it was fun to program. > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > On 4 July 2012 10:20, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, did not bother... you can only receive most radio regular AM stations > > > from a couple hundred, maybe 1000 miles away, so I used > > > cos(latitude)*(difference in longitude) to scale the longitude > > differences > > > to something proportional to ground distances measured in latitude > > degrees, > > > and then sqrt((lat diff)^2 + (long diff)^2) to estimate a fair relative > > > distance in latitude degrees. Multiply this by 60 and one has something > > > (very) close to nautical miles if the numbers are small. So in essence, I > > > did sort of a local projection based on the guessed lat/long. I also > > > accounted for the across-the-international-date-line shorter distance. > > > Really, one's input lat/long is approximate, and one is really interested > > > in the 10 or so nearer radio stations, not just the one nearest. One of > > the > > > 10 will be conveniently located for aiding the current navigational > > > problem. > > > > > > I would imagine that one of them will be near a harbour or other useful > > > point, and, drawing a range between the transmitter and an important > > > nautical navigation aid, like a conspicuously lit fairway buoy, or a > > > lighthouse or something, will provide an approach bearing to that aid > > that > > > is clear of trouble until one sees the aid. All of this is dependent on > > > having charts that show the trouble and good navigational analysis of the > > > situation one is in etc. GPS is far superior when it is working well. > > > Sextants are great when you can see something in the sky. > > > > > > When would I use it ? Well, it is a hands-fee device, assuming the > > antenna > > > angle is set as in the example above. It produces sound I can play with > > > cheap equipment in the cockpit -- a nearly disposable speaker. Perhaps I > > do > > > not like the way my compass is swinging or taking time to settle, maybe > > it > > > is choppy, maybe it is overcast and maybe I am working on my handheld GPS > > > without the expensive mapping display, or > > > navigate-toward-a-keypad-input-coordinate capability, and mentally > > > subtracting or interpolating is distracting and leaving me with doubts > > > about my math while my face is being washed with refreshing sea spray. > > > Moment to moment, steering for the null in the sound is very easily done. > > > The null in the sound, unlike a compass cannot swing or have momentum of > > > its own, one has only the boat's momentum. Your brain can mentally > > average > > > the sound as the boat yaws back and forth slightly in seas so you can > > feel > > > you are, on average, on the right heading. Sure, once in a while focus on > > > the compass, or go below to chart or whatever, but moment to moment, it > > > requires little concentration to have confidence in where you are > > pointing. > > > One can hear the music while adjusting sails, cooking, resting, using the > > > binoculars, reading a book. It is easy to tell a non-numerical sailing > > mate > > > to steer so the music is the quietest possible for a few minutes. And > > from > > > the other end of the boat with your head down in the bilge, you can hear > > > when they are steering off, and then steering back on. > > > > > > It is also very low power. > > > > > > It is not a replacement for anything, but one more element in my layers > > of > > > confidence in navigation. If it even once gives me an unexpected result > > > that drives me back to my sextant calculations to look for errors, or > > GPS & > > > chart for plotting errors, it has served well. Remember, the more local > > > something is, the bigger the measurements it will give me. It is > > something > > > between seeing a buoy, which is very, absolutely local, and a sextant > > > reading, which is really good at fixing big distances but not really good > > > for really local stuff. > > > > > > And between times, it plays local radio. You never know, those stations > > > might tell you something interesting, like the weather forecast, or about > > > some local festival or news that is of importance to you. Just advancing > > > through the radio stations along your route is another way to maintain a > > > measure of progress. > > > > > > Why would you leave such a wonderful thing off of the boat ? > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: maxcamirand@... > > > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:23:43 -0400 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > > > > Interesting, about the spreadsheet. Did you program the great circle > > > > > > math yourself? > > > > > > On 4 July 2012 09:14, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a list of AM radio stations from around the world: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-query-broadcast-station-search > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Go to the bottom of that form, select "Text File (pipe delimited / no > > > links)" and hit "Submit Data". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You will have a list of 25,000 AM radio stations, and their lat/long, > > > world wide. I have imported the list into a spreadsheet to find nearest > > > stations given approximate lat/long. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28519|28519|2012-07-05 10:10:35|SHANE ROTHWELL|welding boat parts in the shitty|Hi Max,   You mentioned $1400 for a 20' shipping can. Good price, I have 2 & paid double for that, each!   but be sure to have a lock box welded onto it to cover the lock or they are easy to break into with the lock exposed, locks being for the honest as they are...   Also, have the celing insulated or with any heat inside (and just your body heat working inside is plenty) it will condence and absolutely rain inside the can. If you are buying it from the local outfit that sells & repairs them, get them to do the insulating and the lock box as it's by far the cheapest & easiest.   As the deck is wood, when you place the can, block it up so there is good air curculation under the can or the deck will rot out. if you get heaps of snow, place plywood/whatever leaning up against the side of the can so as not to block airflow.   I also installed a small 110V computer style fan over the inside of the forward vent which has been running continiously for the last 6 years. Just tape it in place with that aluminum ducting tape. keeps it fresh. Princess auto for the fans = cheap.   I also keep a 100W lightbulb burning all winter as it keeps things dry & down to -20C, 4-5 days of it (with no wind!) & paint didn't freeze (but that's nothing for you is it?)   for touchups & prior to resale, grey tremclad paint is almost a perfect color match.   Cheers, Shane [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28520|28485|2012-07-05 10:36:01|Maxime Camirand|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|Hi Matt, Are these techniques you've developed and tried yourself? Regards, Max On 5 July 2012 09:13, Matt Malone wrote: > ** > > > > > OK, > > > Paul wrote: > "Nobody uses RDF anymore because it was notorious for giving errors...the > radio signals bounce off mountains and buildings." > > This is true, this can happen, if there are geometrically significant > mountains / buildings nearby. The unstated in the assumption was, we are > dealing with a transmitter on an island / coast, and you have an otherwise > clear line of sight to it over water only. While it is a lot more difficult > for it to happen, GPS signals also bounce off metal buildings and give > ghost positions -- a colleague designs aircraft nav systems for a big > aerospace company and this is a big problem, surprisingly, at airports > where there are a lot of hangars. If you are "near" shore with a lot of > metal buildings that are comparable to the size of hangars, you should > watch your GPS too. > > Yes, these are all geometrically-inspired. > > If a depth sounder cannot be relied upon to alarm some time over the > course of an "hour or two" when one is in 100 feet, or 50 feet or 30 feet > of water, when it is set for 600 feet / 200m, then, it is a hazard and has > no place on a boat. I never said, set the alarm for 20 feet, when I expect > to approach an island with a bottom that goes from hundreds of feet to > reefs very quickly. Built into that scenario is, even if the depth sounder > fails to measure depth properly at the first occurrence of water less than > 600 feet, the bottom is constantly changing for an "hour or two". If your > depth sounder can go an hour or two in shallower-than-alarm setting water > without ONCE alarming, you have a serious equipment failure. Then there is > still someone at the helm in that scenario. Did I say that no one would DR > the expected time, and communicate this to the person on watch ? Did I say > that no other instructions at all would be given to the person on the helm > ? Do I have to explain everything ? > > Did I ever say ignore the compass or GPS or other devices completely ? > Absolutely not ! > > > "Sure, once in a while focus on the compass, or go below to chart or > whatever, but moment to moment, it (RDF) requires little concentration > to have confidence in where you are pointing." > > That seems to be what I said. Confidence in how one is pointing, moment to > moment. How often is "once in a while"... well, using good navigation > common sense, far more often than the expected travel time from where you > last GPSed yourself to the nearest rocks... So if you are an hour away from > any rocks, and check the GPS every 10 minutes, what is the problem ? If you > are seconds away from rocks, should the boat take the wrong heading in a > narrow channel, that is a completely different situation. > > And if you expect there is any chance that you are close enough to any > kind of rocks that you expect the conditions will make otherwise completely > undetectable, then this has elevated from a navigation problem with many > options where imagination and simple geometry is useful, to one where > everything available, including stopping and waiting for the conditions to > change, or changing plans entirely, should be used. > > And this one: > > > >> A "local chart" with tower locations that do not quite correspond with > > > lat-longs in the list can warn of GPS offsets owing to a different NAD > or > > > WGS being used on the chart. That is before reaching the buoy or rock > with > > > GPS coordinates that do not match the chart. > > Does not rely on any piece of equipment. This is comparing data from two > different sources to see if they are consistent. Inconsistencies can tell > you to EXPECT inconsistencies between GPS readings and lat/long on the > chart. This can happen. Geeze, how many times have I heard inland water > people say that a rock moved because their GPS told them it was in the > wrong spot. If the channel is less than 200m wide, or clearances to hazards > are less than 100m, I would be awfully cautious of relying on GPS, even in > well-surveyed North American waters. Yes, yes, GPS is good to a few meters > -- most of the time. How many times have I looked back at the track on my > GPS and sometime during the trip, and my boat apparently jumped 30m to the > side at some point. > > Brent indicated that he had found RDF useful sometimes up to 300 miles > off-shore. Just to be clear, in all of these, I assumed that one is miles > off-shore or from those dreaded rocks, where one has options, and RDF just > provides an easier way to point the boat to something that is not > necessarily either a compass direction or a straight line. Go ahead, > pre-compute the GPS waypoints and compass directions for a circular arc and > try to follow them without a graphical display in the cockpit. Is that a > $10,000 system now? And when you are not looking at the display, it is not > giving you information. If you have autohelm linked to your GPS-based nav > (gasp, someone might suggest you might stop looking at the instruments all > together and call that seamanship) then just turn on a regular radio for > the news. Something that is making sound gives you information when you are > not looking at it. I am going to say it again, so, no one misunderstands: > > > "Sure, once in a while focus on the compass, or go below to chart or > whatever, but moment to moment, it (RDF) requires little concentration > to have confidence in where you are pointing." > > Plotting the GPS coordinates of where you actually ARE is far easier, and > requires only the least expensive, hand-held GPS gear. If your X's are > veering off that circular arc you drew on your paper chart as your intended > path (using RDF to point), then change what you are doing ! If you look at > your compass and your heading is much different than you expected, change > what you are doing. Checking something against expectations can be much > easier than using it as a moment-to-moment pointing aid. > > Maintaining good pointing makes it more likely one will more closely > follow intended paths. If one relies on RDF for something other than > pointing in proximity to hazards, or has failed to mark an intended path, > compute DR positions and times, identify hazards near the path, and is not > double checking their actual position against their DR path on some > schedule proportional to proximity to hazards, then, yes, there is a > problem with good seamanship. > > Back in the day when people navigated in all weather, 24 hours a day by > radio fixes alone, yes, there were lots of problems. Uncertainties in > bearings to stations owing to a number of factors, including the boat > yawing, and internal reflections from stuff in the boat, and geometrical > plotting problems brought on by angles too close to zero or 180 degrees and > reflections from external things like mountains, could place fixes > off-position by a good fraction of the distance to the stations. This could > easily be many miles. > > > > One RDF bearing and a compass heading, provided they are not too > closely > > > aligned, can give a reasonable fix. > > Never said a good fix. Never said a good fix near rocks. If the station is > on the nearest coast, and you are 200 miles out, and expected arrival is > tomorrow, how exactly does one need to know where they are ? Not sure why > anyone would use this at all in the presence of a functioning GPS, just > saying these are lines one can draw on a chart. Knowing one can do that, > and knowing the expected errors is a layer to seamanship. > > RDF without any GPS, ever, even miles offshore is going back in time to a > more dangerous time to sail. I never suggested that. If anyone finds > themselves in that position, then appropriate prudence is warranted. RDF is > just a cheap, easy tool with so many uses in combination with inexpensive > modern gear. > > One criticism no one raised is, a civilian AM station can change the > location from which they transmit and the reference data you are using may > not reflect that change. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: maxcamirand@... > > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 01:42:47 -0400 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > Hi Matt, > > > > Respectfully, I would not use any of the "navigation" techniques you > > described in your last email. Geometrically, they are all correct, but > they > > don't properly take into account the possibility of failure of the > devices. > > Good seamanship means aiming for redundancy. If you follow a radio > leading > > line of sorts, and set a depth alarm to wake you, you are screwed if > either > > one of those two devices fails you, for whatever reason. This means that > > you are actually more likely to get screwed than if you were relying on > > only one of those devices. Both RDF and depth sounders have a lot of > > failure modes. > > > > Really, this is not a problem of reliability of these two devices as much > > as a lack of understanding of what consists good navigation and good > > seamanship. You can't look at it like a paper geometry problem, because > > then you will arrive at paper solutions that will put you on the rocks > > sooner or later. > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > On 4 July 2012 13:42, M.J. Malone wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > As with all navigation aids, RDF can be applied imaginatively with > others. > > > > > > For instance set the RDF for a radio station from a port town, exact > > > co-location of the transmitter and port is not important here. Set the > > > depth sounder to alarm at 200m, or whatever the off-shore shelf is in > the > > > area. Then follow the radio in until the depth alarms, you know you > are an > > > hour or two from port. Great for getting some sleep while the less > > > mathematically-inclined navigator has the helm. > > > > > > There is no need to go to a transmitter. Set the null antenna abeam, > hold > > > a compass course, when the radio goes silent you are abeam of the > tower. > > > > > > At this point, knowing from GPS how far you are off-shore, hold the > tower > > > abeam and sail an arc around a headland. Leeway will cause it to be a > > > slight spiral unless you set the antenna to account for it. > > > > > > Alternately, set the windvane and the antenna for a heading to a port > and > > > turn the radio way up, and take some rest while a crewmate watches for > big > > > ships. If you are roused by the radio screaming at you, either there > has > > > been a wind shift, or you are drifting off a line to the antenna. > > > > > > One RDF bearing and a compass heading, provided they are not too > closely > > > aligned, can give a reasonable fix. > > > > > > A "local chart" with tower locations that do not quite correspond with > > > lat-longs in the list can warn of GPS offsets owing to a different NAD > or > > > WGS being used on the chart. That is before reaching the buoy or rock > with > > > GPS coordinates that do not match the chart. > > > > > > Mostly I like the low-tech redundancy and cheap but > navigationally-complex > > > audible queues that RDF might provide. In takes a pretty nice GPS > system or > > > compass to yell at me when I want them to. > > > > > > If we thing about the information provided by different navigation > systems > > > in an analogy to taking a fix by sightings to visible targets, RDF > provides > > > information that is so different that it is like a sight line cutting > at > > > right angles through the others. It provides information from a very > > > different perspective. > > > > > > All it is is a cheap AM radio with an antenna one might even wind > > > themselves. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > > > > You're right, I can see more of a use for RDF than LORAN. It could be > > > useful to establish a "leading bearing" of sorts to make landfall at a > > > port, if you didn't want to (or couldn't) use GPS. I asked about the > math > > > because I have the perfect spreadsheet left over from an exercise in > > > school, which could be easily adapted. Your plain sailing math is > totally > > > adequate for the ranges involved, though. I'm sure it was quite a bit > of > > > work anyway. You have to get it to abstract N/S, correctly convert > angles > > > to 000-359 degree bearings (even across the equator or datelines), > etc. I > > > remember it was fun to program. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Max > > > > > > On 4 July 2012 10:20, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, did not bother... you can only receive most radio regular AM > stations > > > > from a couple hundred, maybe 1000 miles away, so I used > > > > cos(latitude)*(difference in longitude) to scale the longitude > > > differences > > > > to something proportional to ground distances measured in latitude > > > degrees, > > > > and then sqrt((lat diff)^2 + (long diff)^2) to estimate a fair > relative > > > > distance in latitude degrees. Multiply this by 60 and one has > something > > > > (very) close to nautical miles if the numbers are small. So in > essence, I > > > > did sort of a local projection based on the guessed lat/long. I also > > > > accounted for the across-the-international-date-line shorter > distance. > > > > Really, one's input lat/long is approximate, and one is really > interested > > > > in the 10 or so nearer radio stations, not just the one nearest. One > of > > > the > > > > 10 will be conveniently located for aiding the current navigational > > > > problem. > > > > > > > > I would imagine that one of them will be near a harbour or other > useful > > > > point, and, drawing a range between the transmitter and an important > > > > nautical navigation aid, like a conspicuously lit fairway buoy, or a > > > > lighthouse or something, will provide an approach bearing to that aid > > > that > > > > is clear of trouble until one sees the aid. All of this is dependent > on > > > > having charts that show the trouble and good navigational analysis > of the > > > > situation one is in etc. GPS is far superior when it is working well. > > > > Sextants are great when you can see something in the sky. > > > > > > > > When would I use it ? Well, it is a hands-fee device, assuming the > > > antenna > > > > angle is set as in the example above. It produces sound I can play > with > > > > cheap equipment in the cockpit -- a nearly disposable speaker. > Perhaps I > > > do > > > > not like the way my compass is swinging or taking time to settle, > maybe > > > it > > > > is choppy, maybe it is overcast and maybe I am working on my > handheld GPS > > > > without the expensive mapping display, or > > > > navigate-toward-a-keypad-input-coordinate capability, and mentally > > > > subtracting or interpolating is distracting and leaving me with > doubts > > > > about my math while my face is being washed with refreshing sea > spray. > > > > Moment to moment, steering for the null in the sound is very easily > done. > > > > The null in the sound, unlike a compass cannot swing or have > momentum of > > > > its own, one has only the boat's momentum. Your brain can mentally > > > average > > > > the sound as the boat yaws back and forth slightly in seas so you can > > > feel > > > > you are, on average, on the right heading. Sure, once in a while > focus on > > > > the compass, or go below to chart or whatever, but moment to moment, > it > > > > requires little concentration to have confidence in where you are > > > pointing. > > > > One can hear the music while adjusting sails, cooking, resting, > using the > > > > binoculars, reading a book. It is easy to tell a non-numerical > sailing > > > mate > > > > to steer so the music is the quietest possible for a few minutes. And > > > from > > > > the other end of the boat with your head down in the bilge, you can > hear > > > > when they are steering off, and then steering back on. > > > > > > > > It is also very low power. > > > > > > > > It is not a replacement for anything, but one more element in my > layers > > > of > > > > confidence in navigation. If it even once gives me an unexpected > result > > > > that drives me back to my sextant calculations to look for errors, or > > > GPS & > > > > chart for plotting errors, it has served well. Remember, the more > local > > > > something is, the bigger the measurements it will give me. It is > > > something > > > > between seeing a buoy, which is very, absolutely local, and a sextant > > > > reading, which is really good at fixing big distances but not really > good > > > > for really local stuff. > > > > > > > > And between times, it plays local radio. You never know, those > stations > > > > might tell you something interesting, like the weather forecast, or > about > > > > some local festival or news that is of importance to you. Just > advancing > > > > through the radio stations along your route is another way to > maintain a > > > > measure of progress. > > > > > > > > Why would you leave such a wonderful thing off of the boat ? > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: maxcamirand@... > > > > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:23:43 -0400 > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting, about the spreadsheet. Did you program the great circle > > > > > > > > math yourself? > > > > > > > > On 4 July 2012 09:14, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a list of AM radio stations from around the world: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-query-broadcast-station-search > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Go to the bottom of that form, select "Text File (pipe delimited / > no > > > > links)" and hit "Submit Data". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You will have a list of 25,000 AM radio stations, and their > lat/long, > > > > world wide. I have imported the list into a spreadsheet to find > nearest > > > > stations given approximate lat/long. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28521|28519|2012-07-05 11:23:49|Maxime Camirand|Re: welding boat parts in the shitty|Hi Shane, Thanks for the tips. A lot of things that I wouldn't have thought about, and would have had to find out the Hard Way. The certified cargo-worthy containers were over $2k. This is for one that has some paint knocked off, light surface rust, and a hole or two drilled in it. I figure it doesn't matter, since welding to it and otherwise modifying it will make any certification null anyway. I'm thinking, though, that maybe the modifications (workbench, insulation, lighting, electrical panel) might interest buyers when it's time to resell the container. Regards, Max On 5 July 2012 10:09, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > ** > > > Hi Max, > > You mentioned $1400 for a 20' shipping can. Good price, I have 2 & paid > double for that, each! > > but be sure to have a lock box welded onto it to cover the lock or they > are easy to break into with the lock exposed, locks being for the honest as > they are... > > Also, have the celing insulated or with any heat inside (and just your > body heat working inside is plenty) it will condence and absolutely rain > inside the can. If you are buying it from the local outfit that sells & > repairs them, get them to do the insulating and the lock box as it's by far > the cheapest & easiest. > > As the deck is wood, when you place the can, block it up so there is good > air curculation under the can or the deck will rot out. if you get heaps of > snow, place plywood/whatever leaning up against the side of the can so as > not to block airflow. > > I also installed a small 110V computer style fan over the inside of the > forward vent which has been running continiously for the last 6 years. Just > tape it in place with that aluminum ducting tape. keeps it fresh. Princess > auto for the fans = cheap. I also keep a 100W lightbulb burning all > winter as it keeps things dry & down to -20C, 4-5 days of it (with no > wind!) & paint didn't freeze (but that's nothing for you is it?) > > for touchups & prior to resale, grey tremclad paint is almost a perfect > color match. > > Cheers, > Shane > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28522|28485|2012-07-05 12:45:51|Matt Malone|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|First of all, this one: > One RDF bearing and a compass heading, provided they are not too closely > aligned, can give a reasonable fix. Is an aircraft technique, that, practically speaking will be something between useless and ineffective for sailors. It has many geometric weaknesses that are all against it when near the equator, carrying Mercator projections, and tuning to a single AM station. Sailors carrying Mercator projection charts, near the equator, would require, minimum, two AM stations, not closely aligned. So, on that one, I will say, I was wrong for the purposes of people here. I should not have mentioned taking a fix with one station. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: maxcamirand@... > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 10:35:39 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > Hi Matt, > > Are these techniques you've developed and tried yourself? > > Regards, > Max > So no good answer to this one. Either I am ripping off old techniques, that are old and out of use and therefore proven inferior by time, or, I am making up new techniques which are automatically suspect, because, who the heck am I. And worst of all, maybe I have never actually used them. So, lets get the worst out of the way. My RDF is D-cell battery operated, so, very portable. I have converted it from 1950s heavy duty 1.5V battery technology to modern 1.2V NiMH cell technology (by adding a cell) so it operates at the same voltage and gets good performance with modern technology. Eventually, I will build in a charging circuit so when connected to boat power, it will charge if needed, and will run on batteries if there is an interruption in boat power. Until then, I can take it anywhere, and have. I live in an area with a lot of radio stations. I have taken it out more than 100 miles away, checked it against GPS and found it gives me answers to the precision I expected. I have taken it on my 100% fibreglass lake boat, and in practical situations, it gives the expected precision. My RDF came with my very old around-the-world type, new-to-me boat, and had optional additional crystals installed in it suitable for the San Francisco-off-shore area. So I am not creating anything new here. It was an offshore nav aid used in the boat I now own. But, me in a boat, 100 miles offshore, no, I have not used this RDF. Brent said he had, not as a special endorsement, but enough to say he had. These are old RDF techniques. Essentially, the RDF is being used as an audible compass, either to find a bearing to, or hold a bearing while piloting to a fixed point that is not the magnetic pole. For all the basic reasons that compass techniques work, these work. RDF has disadvantages. - the transmitter may not be where it says it should be. - there may be reflections from unfavourable terrain or buildings. - there may be generally more radio noise at certain times, like solar storms or electrical storms that make it harder to locate the null (no sound) direction for a radio station -- the sound may dip below the level of the static and stay below over a finite angle -- a standard technique to find the minimum would be to average the two angles where the sound dips into the noise. If the RDF has a signal strength meter, then this is the preferred, more precise technique anyway in all conditions. It is much like the two-sight interpolation to determine local noon when shooting the sun using a sextant, and is more precise for the same reasons. - When taking a bearing, using a bench-top RDF like mine, there is uncertainty in the heading of the boat, plus the uncertainty in the relative bearing of the transmitter. For hand-held ones, the bearing is read like on a hand-held sighting compass. - when one is not near land, there may be no stations available. RDF advantages: - advantages over a compass: Provided the transmitter is co-located with the destination, RDF and the transmitter will tend (to a certain extent) to account for leeway and current without calculations, provided the leeway speed and current speed are reasonably small compared to boat speed. When steering for the null, one will be adjusting slightly as the bearing to the destination changes. If one turns the antenna by the estimated leeway and drift angles, then, it will tend to account for small errors in the calculation of these angles, provided the errors in estimating the leeway and drift speed are small compared to boat speed. Double check with GPS. - advantages over a sextant: Way less calculations (to potentially get wrong) to take an RDF fix. Stations (generally) transmit continuously, one can take a fix at any time, not intermittently through broken cloud, or because it is the wrong time of the day. The RDF fix becomes more accurate the closer the stations are, the closer one gets to land, which is generally desireable, whereas a sextant gives about the same precision whether 10 miles or 1000 miles from shore. - advantages over GPS: there are very few atmospheric conditions that are so extreme that one cannot receive an AM station. Even when there is trouble hearing an AM station on an RDF, one is hearing the station with one's own ears, so, you receive feedback, caution, when the answers might be poor. A GPS is a black-box and might not lock on, might not see some satellites, and might not give you good quantitative feedback about how it is doing. I have had beautiful, and awful GPS reception on days that do not seem conspicuously different. I have yet to have my GPS fail to lock on eventually, but, it sometimes takes 5 seconds, sometimes 5 minutes, once I have received the factory-programmed warning that it could not lock on, should it try again in some alternate software mode -- in the alternate mode, it locked on. Yeah software. And the software warning on all but the most expensive GPS units that say "not intended for navigation" really makes me wonder about how straight-forward and reliable their software is. Again, the 30 meter jumps in my past track make me wonder, how much of that is reception, how much software. Basically, a hand-held GPS that gives lat/long only, a ship's compass and handheld compass, good binoculars, depth sounder, RDF, and sextant, in that order, are the navigation devices I would take with me. I have them all, and have used them all. The next thing I would add is AIS, before thinking about the $10,000 integrated nav/piloting system. When it comes down to it, I do not leave home without my GPS. Whereas my RDF, only comes on special trips. I have decided however, it is coming on all my special trips. Matt > On 5 July 2012 09:13, Matt Malone wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > OK, > > > > > > Paul wrote: > > "Nobody uses RDF anymore because it was notorious for giving errors...the > > radio signals bounce off mountains and buildings." > > > > This is true, this can happen, if there are geometrically significant > > mountains / buildings nearby. The unstated in the assumption was, we are > > dealing with a transmitter on an island / coast, and you have an otherwise > > clear line of sight to it over water only. While it is a lot more difficult > > for it to happen, GPS signals also bounce off metal buildings and give > > ghost positions -- a colleague designs aircraft nav systems for a big > > aerospace company and this is a big problem, surprisingly, at airports > > where there are a lot of hangars. If you are "near" shore with a lot of > > metal buildings that are comparable to the size of hangars, you should > > watch your GPS too. > > > > Yes, these are all geometrically-inspired. > > > > If a depth sounder cannot be relied upon to alarm some time over the > > course of an "hour or two" when one is in 100 feet, or 50 feet or 30 feet > > of water, when it is set for 600 feet / 200m, then, it is a hazard and has > > no place on a boat. I never said, set the alarm for 20 feet, when I expect > > to approach an island with a bottom that goes from hundreds of feet to > > reefs very quickly. Built into that scenario is, even if the depth sounder > > fails to measure depth properly at the first occurrence of water less than > > 600 feet, the bottom is constantly changing for an "hour or two". If your > > depth sounder can go an hour or two in shallower-than-alarm setting water > > without ONCE alarming, you have a serious equipment failure. Then there is > > still someone at the helm in that scenario. Did I say that no one would DR > > the expected time, and communicate this to the person on watch ? Did I say > > that no other instructions at all would be given to the person on the helm > > ? Do I have to explain everything ? > > > > Did I ever say ignore the compass or GPS or other devices completely ? > > Absolutely not ! > > > > > > "Sure, once in a while focus on the compass, or go below to chart or > > whatever, but moment to moment, it (RDF) requires little concentration > > to have confidence in where you are pointing." > > > > That seems to be what I said. Confidence in how one is pointing, moment to > > moment. How often is "once in a while"... well, using good navigation > > common sense, far more often than the expected travel time from where you > > last GPSed yourself to the nearest rocks... So if you are an hour away from > > any rocks, and check the GPS every 10 minutes, what is the problem ? If you > > are seconds away from rocks, should the boat take the wrong heading in a > > narrow channel, that is a completely different situation. > > > > And if you expect there is any chance that you are close enough to any > > kind of rocks that you expect the conditions will make otherwise completely > > undetectable, then this has elevated from a navigation problem with many > > options where imagination and simple geometry is useful, to one where > > everything available, including stopping and waiting for the conditions to > > change, or changing plans entirely, should be used. > > > > And this one: > > > > > > >> A "local chart" with tower locations that do not quite correspond with > > > > lat-longs in the list can warn of GPS offsets owing to a different NAD > > or > > > > WGS being used on the chart. That is before reaching the buoy or rock > > with > > > > GPS coordinates that do not match the chart. > > > > Does not rely on any piece of equipment. This is comparing data from two > > different sources to see if they are consistent. Inconsistencies can tell > > you to EXPECT inconsistencies between GPS readings and lat/long on the > > chart. This can happen. Geeze, how many times have I heard inland water > > people say that a rock moved because their GPS told them it was in the > > wrong spot. If the channel is less than 200m wide, or clearances to hazards > > are less than 100m, I would be awfully cautious of relying on GPS, even in > > well-surveyed North American waters. Yes, yes, GPS is good to a few meters > > -- most of the time. How many times have I looked back at the track on my > > GPS and sometime during the trip, and my boat apparently jumped 30m to the > > side at some point. > > > > Brent indicated that he had found RDF useful sometimes up to 300 miles > > off-shore. Just to be clear, in all of these, I assumed that one is miles > > off-shore or from those dreaded rocks, where one has options, and RDF just > > provides an easier way to point the boat to something that is not > > necessarily either a compass direction or a straight line. Go ahead, > > pre-compute the GPS waypoints and compass directions for a circular arc and > > try to follow them without a graphical display in the cockpit. Is that a > > $10,000 system now? And when you are not looking at the display, it is not > > giving you information. If you have autohelm linked to your GPS-based nav > > (gasp, someone might suggest you might stop looking at the instruments all > > together and call that seamanship) then just turn on a regular radio for > > the news. Something that is making sound gives you information when you are > > not looking at it. I am going to say it again, so, no one misunderstands: > > > > > > "Sure, once in a while focus on the compass, or go below to chart or > > whatever, but moment to moment, it (RDF) requires little concentration > > to have confidence in where you are pointing." > > > > Plotting the GPS coordinates of where you actually ARE is far easier, and > > requires only the least expensive, hand-held GPS gear. If your X's are > > veering off that circular arc you drew on your paper chart as your intended > > path (using RDF to point), then change what you are doing ! If you look at > > your compass and your heading is much different than you expected, change > > what you are doing. Checking something against expectations can be much > > easier than using it as a moment-to-moment pointing aid. > > > > Maintaining good pointing makes it more likely one will more closely > > follow intended paths. If one relies on RDF for something other than > > pointing in proximity to hazards, or has failed to mark an intended path, > > compute DR positions and times, identify hazards near the path, and is not > > double checking their actual position against their DR path on some > > schedule proportional to proximity to hazards, then, yes, there is a > > problem with good seamanship. > > > > Back in the day when people navigated in all weather, 24 hours a day by > > radio fixes alone, yes, there were lots of problems. Uncertainties in > > bearings to stations owing to a number of factors, including the boat > > yawing, and internal reflections from stuff in the boat, and geometrical > > plotting problems brought on by angles too close to zero or 180 degrees and > > reflections from external things like mountains, could place fixes > > off-position by a good fraction of the distance to the stations. This could > > easily be many miles. > > > > > > One RDF bearing and a compass heading, provided they are not too > > closely > > > > aligned, can give a reasonable fix. > > > > Never said a good fix. Never said a good fix near rocks. If the station is > > on the nearest coast, and you are 200 miles out, and expected arrival is > > tomorrow, how exactly does one need to know where they are ? Not sure why > > anyone would use this at all in the presence of a functioning GPS, just > > saying these are lines one can draw on a chart. Knowing one can do that, > > and knowing the expected errors is a layer to seamanship. > > > > RDF without any GPS, ever, even miles offshore is going back in time to a > > more dangerous time to sail. I never suggested that. If anyone finds > > themselves in that position, then appropriate prudence is warranted. RDF is > > just a cheap, easy tool with so many uses in combination with inexpensive > > modern gear. > > > > One criticism no one raised is, a civilian AM station can change the > > location from which they transmit and the reference data you are using may > > not reflect that change. > > > > Matt > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: maxcamirand@... > > > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 01:42:47 -0400 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > Hi Matt, > > > > > > Respectfully, I would not use any of the "navigation" techniques you > > > described in your last email. Geometrically, they are all correct, but > > they > > > don't properly take into account the possibility of failure of the > > devices. > > > Good seamanship means aiming for redundancy. If you follow a radio > > leading > > > line of sorts, and set a depth alarm to wake you, you are screwed if > > either > > > one of those two devices fails you, for whatever reason. This means that > > > you are actually more likely to get screwed than if you were relying on > > > only one of those devices. Both RDF and depth sounders have a lot of > > > failure modes. > > > > > > Really, this is not a problem of reliability of these two devices as much > > > as a lack of understanding of what consists good navigation and good > > > seamanship. You can't look at it like a paper geometry problem, because > > > then you will arrive at paper solutions that will put you on the rocks > > > sooner or later. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Max > > > > > > On 4 July 2012 13:42, M.J. Malone wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As with all navigation aids, RDF can be applied imaginatively with > > others. > > > > > > > > For instance set the RDF for a radio station from a port town, exact > > > > co-location of the transmitter and port is not important here. Set the > > > > depth sounder to alarm at 200m, or whatever the off-shore shelf is in > > the > > > > area. Then follow the radio in until the depth alarms, you know you > > are an > > > > hour or two from port. Great for getting some sleep while the less > > > > mathematically-inclined navigator has the helm. > > > > > > > > There is no need to go to a transmitter. Set the null antenna abeam, > > hold > > > > a compass course, when the radio goes silent you are abeam of the > > tower. > > > > > > > > At this point, knowing from GPS how far you are off-shore, hold the > > tower > > > > abeam and sail an arc around a headland. Leeway will cause it to be a > > > > slight spiral unless you set the antenna to account for it. > > > > > > > > Alternately, set the windvane and the antenna for a heading to a port > > and > > > > turn the radio way up, and take some rest while a crewmate watches for > > big > > > > ships. If you are roused by the radio screaming at you, either there > > has > > > > been a wind shift, or you are drifting off a line to the antenna. > > > > > > > > One RDF bearing and a compass heading, provided they are not too > > closely > > > > aligned, can give a reasonable fix. > > > > > > > > A "local chart" with tower locations that do not quite correspond with > > > > lat-longs in the list can warn of GPS offsets owing to a different NAD > > or > > > > WGS being used on the chart. That is before reaching the buoy or rock > > with > > > > GPS coordinates that do not match the chart. > > > > > > > > Mostly I like the low-tech redundancy and cheap but > > navigationally-complex > > > > audible queues that RDF might provide. In takes a pretty nice GPS > > system or > > > > compass to yell at me when I want them to. > > > > > > > > If we thing about the information provided by different navigation > > systems > > > > in an analogy to taking a fix by sightings to visible targets, RDF > > provides > > > > information that is so different that it is like a sight line cutting > > at > > > > right angles through the others. It provides information from a very > > > > different perspective. > > > > > > > > All it is is a cheap AM radio with an antenna one might even wind > > > > themselves. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > > > > > > You're right, I can see more of a use for RDF than LORAN. It could be > > > > useful to establish a "leading bearing" of sorts to make landfall at a > > > > port, if you didn't want to (or couldn't) use GPS. I asked about the > > math > > > > because I have the perfect spreadsheet left over from an exercise in > > > > school, which could be easily adapted. Your plain sailing math is > > totally > > > > adequate for the ranges involved, though. I'm sure it was quite a bit > > of > > > > work anyway. You have to get it to abstract N/S, correctly convert > > angles > > > > to 000-359 degree bearings (even across the equator or datelines), > > etc. I > > > > remember it was fun to program. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Max > > > > > > > > On 4 July 2012 10:20, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, did not bother... you can only receive most radio regular AM > > stations > > > > > from a couple hundred, maybe 1000 miles away, so I used > > > > > cos(latitude)*(difference in longitude) to scale the longitude > > > > differences > > > > > to something proportional to ground distances measured in latitude > > > > degrees, > > > > > and then sqrt((lat diff)^2 + (long diff)^2) to estimate a fair > > relative > > > > > distance in latitude degrees. Multiply this by 60 and one has > > something > > > > > (very) close to nautical miles if the numbers are small. So in > > essence, I > > > > > did sort of a local projection based on the guessed lat/long. I also > > > > > accounted for the across-the-international-date-line shorter > > distance. > > > > > Really, one's input lat/long is approximate, and one is really > > interested > > > > > in the 10 or so nearer radio stations, not just the one nearest. One > > of > > > > the > > > > > 10 will be conveniently located for aiding the current navigational > > > > > problem. > > > > > > > > > > I would imagine that one of them will be near a harbour or other > > useful > > > > > point, and, drawing a range between the transmitter and an important > > > > > nautical navigation aid, like a conspicuously lit fairway buoy, or a > > > > > lighthouse or something, will provide an approach bearing to that aid > > > > that > > > > > is clear of trouble until one sees the aid. All of this is dependent > > on > > > > > having charts that show the trouble and good navigational analysis > > of the > > > > > situation one is in etc. GPS is far superior when it is working well. > > > > > Sextants are great when you can see something in the sky. > > > > > > > > > > When would I use it ? Well, it is a hands-fee device, assuming the > > > > antenna > > > > > angle is set as in the example above. It produces sound I can play > > with > > > > > cheap equipment in the cockpit -- a nearly disposable speaker. > > Perhaps I > > > > do > > > > > not like the way my compass is swinging or taking time to settle, > > maybe > > > > it > > > > > is choppy, maybe it is overcast and maybe I am working on my > > handheld GPS > > > > > without the expensive mapping display, or > > > > > navigate-toward-a-keypad-input-coordinate capability, and mentally > > > > > subtracting or interpolating is distracting and leaving me with > > doubts > > > > > about my math while my face is being washed with refreshing sea > > spray. > > > > > Moment to moment, steering for the null in the sound is very easily > > done. > > > > > The null in the sound, unlike a compass cannot swing or have > > momentum of > > > > > its own, one has only the boat's momentum. Your brain can mentally > > > > average > > > > > the sound as the boat yaws back and forth slightly in seas so you can > > > > feel > > > > > you are, on average, on the right heading. Sure, once in a while > > focus on > > > > > the compass, or go below to chart or whatever, but moment to moment, > > it > > > > > requires little concentration to have confidence in where you are > > > > pointing. > > > > > One can hear the music while adjusting sails, cooking, resting, > > using the > > > > > binoculars, reading a book. It is easy to tell a non-numerical > > sailing > > > > mate > > > > > to steer so the music is the quietest possible for a few minutes. And > > > > from > > > > > the other end of the boat with your head down in the bilge, you can > > hear > > > > > when they are steering off, and then steering back on. > > > > > > > > > > It is also very low power. > > > > > > > > > > It is not a replacement for anything, but one more element in my > > layers > > > > of > > > > > confidence in navigation. If it even once gives me an unexpected > > result > > > > > that drives me back to my sextant calculations to look for errors, or > > > > GPS & > > > > > chart for plotting errors, it has served well. Remember, the more > > local > > > > > something is, the bigger the measurements it will give me. It is > > > > something > > > > > between seeing a buoy, which is very, absolutely local, and a sextant > > > > > reading, which is really good at fixing big distances but not really > > good > > > > > for really local stuff. > > > > > > > > > > And between times, it plays local radio. You never know, those > > stations > > > > > might tell you something interesting, like the weather forecast, or > > about > > > > > some local festival or news that is of importance to you. Just > > advancing > > > > > through the radio stations along your route is another way to > > maintain a > > > > > measure of progress. > > > > > > > > > > Why would you leave such a wonderful thing off of the boat ? > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: maxcamirand@... > > > > > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:23:43 -0400 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting, about the spreadsheet. Did you program the great circle > > > > > > > > > > math yourself? > > > > > > > > > > On 4 July 2012 09:14, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a list of AM radio stations from around the world: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-query-broadcast-station-search > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Go to the bottom of that form, select "Text File (pipe delimited / > > no > > > > > links)" and hit "Submit Data". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You will have a list of 25,000 AM radio stations, and their > > lat/long, > > > > > world wide. I have imported the list into a spreadsheet to find > > nearest > > > > > stations given approximate lat/long. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28523|28523|2012-07-05 14:24:29|Mark Hamill|shipping containers as workshops|Max: If you haven't already--try Googling " shipping containers as workshops ". MarkH| 28524|28485|2012-07-05 15:10:17|Paul Wilson|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|On 6/07/2012 1:13 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > GPS signals also bounce off metal buildings and give ghost positions > -- a colleague designs aircraft nav systems for a big aerospace > company and this is a big problem, surprisingly, at airports where > there are a lot of hangars. If you are "near" shore with a lot of > metal buildings that are comparable to the size of hangars, you should > watch your GPS too. I am an avionics engineer and I have never heard of that. It is a possibility if you are only getting a few satellites that one satellite dropping on or off line will cause a poorer position fix but I am pretty sure it is not because of signals bouncing. Car gps units would go nuts if that was the case. When they do an approval for a gps route or landing at an airport, they are making sure there is full coverage and no interference by flying many passes with a test aircraft before granting approval. There are some radio frequencies that can interfere with a gps reception but this is more a problem with the aircraft's own radios. With a full satellite constellation now and with much faster and better 12 channel gps receivers, there are seldom find any problems. Paul| 28525|28485|2012-07-05 16:41:59|Matt Malone|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|Paul, all I can say from personal experience is, I have observed sudden shifts in GPS position, about one every few hours of navigation. Neither I nor the satellites moved over suddenly, so, it is somewhere in between, in the domain of the GPS unit. My colleague is an aerospace engineer who has designed flight nav software for big commercial jets for 3 companies, now with Rockwell, and spent several hours explaining to me all the problems they were finding integrating raw, unfiltered GPS data (lat/long/altitude) into flight nav systems. They found that signal bounces off of buildings providing distinct false locations not suitable for averaging were a problem when on the ground, and signal bounces off the ground (I seem to remember him mentioning marshes in the clearway beyond runways) were a problem when near the ground. Raw GPS data is what one gets without software filtering. He was adding software filtering so he could use it in his autopilot flight equations. He was explaining how he used integrated inertial navigation acceleration and rate data to reject spurious data coming from the GPS. In essence, you could not have jumped over 30m, there was no acceleration to match that, so ignore that piece of position data as erroneous. Inertial data is required in any case to track the aircraft attitude, pitch, roll, yaw, etc. I suspect a lot of GPS units are displaying something different than their raw GPS data at a particular instant because of built in software filtering. You might not be seeing the erroneous data because of software at lower levels, depending on what part of the avionics you are working on. All of the filtering is proprietary, and it is how various companies sell their GPS as superior to others when they all start with the same satellites, the same math to combine GPS signals, and sometimes even the same signal processing chip. Car GPS units do a lot of software and are sometimes easy to catch making what can only be assumptions originating in the software, not coming from the GPS data at all. For instance, most will try to show your position as being on a road it knows about in its internal map. If one turns off of a road on an unmapped laneway, very close to an intersection, very often the GPS unit will show you driving on the parallel road it knows about. If you then take a 45 degree turn and start driving through a parking lot / yard diagonally away from the intersection you can see the software having a real problem deciding what it is you are doing and where you really are. If you have up to date maps in the unit and stay on paved roads, you seldom see any errors because of the software. My GPS is more basic, with I believe less software in it. It has a position averaging feature that I have used when laying out logging roads in the bush, and, have used it to bring roads together with no noticeable offset of kink. I have caught it showing me obviously wrong data however. My gut feeling with my unit is, it has never been wrong by more than 100m, seldom more than 30m, and if you hold it still and let it average when it is getting good reception from many satellites, it will compute averages down to less than a meter. My unit is 12 channel but may not have the software updates for the most recent 2 satellites in the constellation. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 07:08:58 +1200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) On 6/07/2012 1:13 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > GPS signals also bounce off metal buildings and give ghost positions > -- a colleague designs aircraft nav systems for a big aerospace > company and this is a big problem, surprisingly, at airports where > there are a lot of hangars. If you are "near" shore with a lot of > metal buildings that are comparable to the size of hangars, you should > watch your GPS too. I am an avionics engineer and I have never heard of that. It is a possibility if you are only getting a few satellites that one satellite dropping on or off line will cause a poorer position fix but I am pretty sure it is not because of signals bouncing. Car gps units would go nuts if that was the case. When they do an approval for a gps route or landing at an airport, they are making sure there is full coverage and no interference by flying many passes with a test aircraft before granting approval. There are some radio frequencies that can interfere with a gps reception but this is more a problem with the aircraft's own radios. With a full satellite constellation now and with much faster and better 12 channel gps receivers, there are seldom find any problems. Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28526|28485|2012-07-05 16:56:09|brentswain38|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|Using all methods available to you is good seamanship, and the more options you use, the greater the redundancy. I've used the methods described, before GPS. With the low cost of GPS, it would be bad seamanship to sail without it, but equally bad seamanship to ingore all other inicators, and sources of information.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Camirand wrote: > > Hi Matt, > > Respectfully, I would not use any of the "navigation" techniques you > described in your last email. Geometrically, they are all correct, but they > don't properly take into account the possibility of failure of the devices. > Good seamanship means aiming for redundancy. If you follow a radio leading > line of sorts, and set a depth alarm to wake you, you are screwed if either > one of those two devices fails you, for whatever reason. This means that > you are actually more likely to get screwed than if you were relying on > only one of those devices. Both RDF and depth sounders have a lot of > failure modes. > > Really, this is not a problem of reliability of these two devices as much > as a lack of understanding of what consists good navigation and good > seamanship. You can't look at it like a paper geometry problem, because > then you will arrive at paper solutions that will put you on the rocks > sooner or later. > > Regards, > Max > > On 4 July 2012 13:42, M.J. Malone wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > As with all navigation aids, RDF can be applied imaginatively with others. > > > > For instance set the RDF for a radio station from a port town, exact > > co-location of the transmitter and port is not important here. Set the > > depth sounder to alarm at 200m, or whatever the off-shore shelf is in the > > area. Then follow the radio in until the depth alarms, you know you are an > > hour or two from port. Great for getting some sleep while the less > > mathematically-inclined navigator has the helm. > > > > There is no need to go to a transmitter. Set the null antenna abeam, hold > > a compass course, when the radio goes silent you are abeam of the tower. > > > > At this point, knowing from GPS how far you are off-shore, hold the tower > > abeam and sail an arc around a headland. Leeway will cause it to be a > > slight spiral unless you set the antenna to account for it. > > > > Alternately, set the windvane and the antenna for a heading to a port and > > turn the radio way up, and take some rest while a crewmate watches for big > > ships. If you are roused by the radio screaming at you, either there has > > been a wind shift, or you are drifting off a line to the antenna. > > > > One RDF bearing and a compass heading, provided they are not too closely > > aligned, can give a reasonable fix. > > > > A "local chart" with tower locations that do not quite correspond with > > lat-longs in the list can warn of GPS offsets owing to a different NAD or > > WGS being used on the chart. That is before reaching the buoy or rock with > > GPS coordinates that do not match the chart. > > > > Mostly I like the low-tech redundancy and cheap but navigationally-complex > > audible queues that RDF might provide. In takes a pretty nice GPS system or > > compass to yell at me when I want them to. > > > > If we thing about the information provided by different navigation systems > > in an analogy to taking a fix by sightings to visible targets, RDF provides > > information that is so different that it is like a sight line cutting at > > right angles through the others. It provides information from a very > > different perspective. > > > > All it is is a cheap AM radio with an antenna one might even wind > > themselves. > > > > Matt > > > > > > Maxime Camirand wrote: > > > > You're right, I can see more of a use for RDF than LORAN. It could be > > useful to establish a "leading bearing" of sorts to make landfall at a > > port, if you didn't want to (or couldn't) use GPS. I asked about the math > > because I have the perfect spreadsheet left over from an exercise in > > school, which could be easily adapted. Your plain sailing math is totally > > adequate for the ranges involved, though. I'm sure it was quite a bit of > > work anyway. You have to get it to abstract N/S, correctly convert angles > > to 000-359 degree bearings (even across the equator or datelines), etc. I > > remember it was fun to program. > > > > Regards, > > Max > > > > On 4 July 2012 10:20, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, did not bother... you can only receive most radio regular AM stations > > > from a couple hundred, maybe 1000 miles away, so I used > > > cos(latitude)*(difference in longitude) to scale the longitude > > differences > > > to something proportional to ground distances measured in latitude > > degrees, > > > and then sqrt((lat diff)^2 + (long diff)^2) to estimate a fair relative > > > distance in latitude degrees. Multiply this by 60 and one has something > > > (very) close to nautical miles if the numbers are small. So in essence, I > > > did sort of a local projection based on the guessed lat/long. I also > > > accounted for the across-the-international-date-line shorter distance. > > > Really, one's input lat/long is approximate, and one is really interested > > > in the 10 or so nearer radio stations, not just the one nearest. One of > > the > > > 10 will be conveniently located for aiding the current navigational > > > problem. > > > > > > I would imagine that one of them will be near a harbour or other useful > > > point, and, drawing a range between the transmitter and an important > > > nautical navigation aid, like a conspicuously lit fairway buoy, or a > > > lighthouse or something, will provide an approach bearing to that aid > > that > > > is clear of trouble until one sees the aid. All of this is dependent on > > > having charts that show the trouble and good navigational analysis of the > > > situation one is in etc. GPS is far superior when it is working well. > > > Sextants are great when you can see something in the sky. > > > > > > When would I use it ? Well, it is a hands-fee device, assuming the > > antenna > > > angle is set as in the example above. It produces sound I can play with > > > cheap equipment in the cockpit -- a nearly disposable speaker. Perhaps I > > do > > > not like the way my compass is swinging or taking time to settle, maybe > > it > > > is choppy, maybe it is overcast and maybe I am working on my handheld GPS > > > without the expensive mapping display, or > > > navigate-toward-a-keypad-input-coordinate capability, and mentally > > > subtracting or interpolating is distracting and leaving me with doubts > > > about my math while my face is being washed with refreshing sea spray. > > > Moment to moment, steering for the null in the sound is very easily done. > > > The null in the sound, unlike a compass cannot swing or have momentum of > > > its own, one has only the boat's momentum. Your brain can mentally > > average > > > the sound as the boat yaws back and forth slightly in seas so you can > > feel > > > you are, on average, on the right heading. Sure, once in a while focus on > > > the compass, or go below to chart or whatever, but moment to moment, it > > > requires little concentration to have confidence in where you are > > pointing. > > > One can hear the music while adjusting sails, cooking, resting, using the > > > binoculars, reading a book. It is easy to tell a non-numerical sailing > > mate > > > to steer so the music is the quietest possible for a few minutes. And > > from > > > the other end of the boat with your head down in the bilge, you can hear > > > when they are steering off, and then steering back on. > > > > > > It is also very low power. > > > > > > It is not a replacement for anything, but one more element in my layers > > of > > > confidence in navigation. If it even once gives me an unexpected result > > > that drives me back to my sextant calculations to look for errors, or > > GPS & > > > chart for plotting errors, it has served well. Remember, the more local > > > something is, the bigger the measurements it will give me. It is > > something > > > between seeing a buoy, which is very, absolutely local, and a sextant > > > reading, which is really good at fixing big distances but not really good > > > for really local stuff. > > > > > > And between times, it plays local radio. You never know, those stations > > > might tell you something interesting, like the weather forecast, or about > > > some local festival or news that is of importance to you. Just advancing > > > through the radio stations along your route is another way to maintain a > > > measure of progress. > > > > > > Why would you leave such a wonderful thing off of the boat ? > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: maxcamirand@... > > > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:23:43 -0400 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > > > > Interesting, about the spreadsheet. Did you program the great circle > > > > > > math yourself? > > > > > > On 4 July 2012 09:14, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a list of AM radio stations from around the world: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-query-broadcast-station-search > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Go to the bottom of that form, select "Text File (pipe delimited / no > > > links)" and hit "Submit Data". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You will have a list of 25,000 AM radio stations, and their lat/long, > > > world wide. I have imported the list into a spreadsheet to find nearest > > > stations given approximate lat/long. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28527|28485|2012-07-05 17:54:33|Paul Wilson|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|I understand what you say re gps or aircraft position filtering....my argument is that the gps position displayed will not shift due to a bounce off a building. The software, as you say, takes care of this. When I was working we did have many of the problems you describe with position errors with the large commercial aircraft gps/nav units. The ones that interface with inertial navs and other nav aids and compare all the signals before giving a position. It sounds to me that this is what your friend works on. It is hard for many to believe but aircraft actually use poor and sometimes obsolete technology. The most cutting edge technology is in consumer electronics. It simply takes too long for approvals so by the time an aircraft gps is approved and it may be using technology several years old. In the gps units I am talking about, the gps receivers weren't 12 channel and were comparing the gps position to the other nav systems in the aircraft. The processors were so slow that it could take up to 10 or 15 minutes for the nav system to do all of it's testing and "lock on". We did quick turn arounds with helicopters so burning fuel and waiting that long for a gps fix was unacceptable. Position errors were common if one of the nav aids dropped off line which can commonly happen in remote areas. In places like the US where there are many nav aids, this may not be a problem. Note that this is in units you can still buy today and are used in many commercial aircraft. I had many conversations with the salesmen and engineers complaining about this problem and I was not alone. Anyway, compared to a new 12 channel gps they are expensive junk. The solution was to throw out the $50,000 dollar unit and put in a cheaper stand alone late model gps which didn't try to compare it's signal with everything else in the aircraft nav system. The newer units locked on position in less than a minute and never gave any errors. In my experience, gps on a boat is consistently accurate/ repeatable to within about 50 feet when they had the position dithering turned on......now that it is turned off, it is even better than that. If you are getting less than that, it is probably because you are not getting a clear view to the sky and only picking up a few satellites. If a satellite goes below the horizon or one comes up, the geometry and quality of the fix may change significantly. This is quite common when in trees or among tall buildings. It is also a possibility on a boat if getting poor signals through a fixed dodger or through a hatch on a boat. Cheers, Paul On 6/07/2012 8:41 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > Paul, all I can say from personal experience is, I have observed sudden shifts in GPS position, about one every few hours of navigation. Neither I nor the satellites moved over suddenly, so, it is somewhere in between, in the domain of the GPS unit. > > My colleague is an aerospace engineer who has designed flight nav software for big commercial jets for 3 companies, now with Rockwell, and spent several hours explaining to me all the problems they were finding integrating raw, unfiltered GPS data (lat/long/altitude) into flight nav systems. They found that signal bounces off of buildings providing distinct false locations not suitable for averaging were a problem when on the ground, and signal bounces off the ground (I seem to remember him mentioning marshes in the clearway beyond runways) were a problem when near the ground. Raw GPS data is what one gets without software filtering. He was adding software filtering so he could use it in his autopilot flight equations. He was explaining how he used integrated inertial navigation acceleration and rate data to reject spurious data coming from the GPS. In essence, you could not have jumped over 30m, there was no acceleration to match that, so ignore that piece of position data as erroneous. Inertial data is required in any case to track the aircraft attitude, pitch, roll, yaw, etc. > > I suspect a lot of GPS units are displaying something different than their raw GPS data at a particular instant because of built in software filtering. You might not be seeing the erroneous data because of software at lower levels, depending on what part of the avionics you are working on. All of the filtering is proprietary, and it is how various companies sell their GPS as superior to others when they all start with the same satellites, the same math to combine GPS signals, and sometimes even the same signal processing chip. > > Car GPS units do a lot of software and are sometimes easy to catch making what can only be assumptions originating in the software, not coming from the GPS data at all. For instance, most will try to show your position as being on a road it knows about in its internal map. If one turns off of a road on an unmapped laneway, very close to an intersection, very often the GPS unit will show you driving on the parallel road it knows about. If you then take a 45 degree turn and start driving through a parking lot / yard diagonally away from the intersection you can see the software having a real problem deciding what it is you are doing and where you really are. If you have up to date maps in the unit and stay on paved roads, you seldom see any errors because of the software. > > My GPS is more basic, with I believe less software in it. It has a position averaging feature that I have used when laying out logging roads in the bush, and, have used it to bring roads together with no noticeable offset of kink. I have caught it showing me obviously wrong data however. My gut feeling with my unit is, it has never been wrong by more than 100m, seldom more than 30m, and if you hold it still and let it average when it is getting good reception from many satellites, it will compute averages down to less than a meter. My unit is 12 channel but may not have the software updates for the most recent 2 satellites in the constellation. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 07:08:58 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/07/2012 1:13 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > >> GPS signals also bounce off metal buildings and give ghost positions >> -- a colleague designs aircraft nav systems for a big aerospace >> company and this is a big problem, surprisingly, at airports where >> there are a lot of hangars. If you are "near" shore with a lot of >> metal buildings that are comparable to the size of hangars, you should >> watch your GPS too. > > > I am an avionics engineer and I have never heard of that. It is a > > possibility if you are only getting a few satellites that one satellite > > dropping on or off line will cause a poorer position fix but I am pretty > > sure it is not because of signals bouncing. Car gps units would go nuts > > if that was the case. When they do an approval for a gps route or > > landing at an airport, they are making sure there is full coverage and > > no interference by flying many passes with a test aircraft before > > granting approval. There are some radio frequencies that can interfere > > with a gps reception but this is more a problem with the aircraft's own > > radios. With a full satellite constellation now and with much faster > > and better 12 channel gps receivers, there are seldom find any problems. > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 28528|14263|2012-07-10 09:42:32|Dave L|Test|Testing. No new messages for a couple of days after seeing an ominous message... *Unfortunately, the time has come to say goodbye to Yahoo! Groups Labs Applications (beta) and Groups Chat...* * * Are we still here? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28529|14263|2012-07-10 09:54:35|Aaron|Re: Test|I think so Aaron ________________________________ From: Dave L To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 5:42 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Test   Testing. No new messages for a couple of days after seeing an ominous message... *Unfortunately, the time has come to say goodbye to Yahoo! Groups Labs Applications (beta) and Groups Chat...* * * Are we still here? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28530|28485|2012-07-10 11:02:38|Darren Bos|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|GPS position displayed definitely can shift due to bouncing off a building/cliff regardless of what kind of software filtering you have etc. The raw data is just how long the signal takes from the satellite to you. A reflection changes this time and the GPS will not know where it is, period. The software can be used to mask this by guessing where you are, which might actually make things worse. Things are much better than they used to be, with more GPS satellites which means you are less likely to get stuck with few satellites in a bad geometry. Nevertheless, depending where you are (global satellite coverage is not even) and when (there are times when satellite coverage will be better or poorer) there will be times when you will see position errors from reflected signals (not to mention the other sources of error possible). It is easy to test this empirically. Take a GPS, set it down somewhere solid and let it record a track for 24 hrs. The track will go for a walk without the GPS having moved. Sometimes and places this will be a small errror. Surprisingly often, the track will cover significant distance. Just to be clear, I think GPS is the best, most accurate tool available, just not infallible, Darren At 02:52 PM 05/07/2012, you wrote: > > >I understand what you say re gps or aircraft position filtering....my >argument is that the gps position displayed will not shift due to a >bounce off a building. The software, as you say, takes care of this. > >When I was working we did have many of the problems you describe with >position errors with the large commercial aircraft gps/nav units. The >ones that interface with inertial navs and other nav aids and compare >all the signals before giving a position. It sounds to me that this is >what your friend works on. It is hard for many to believe but aircraft >actually use poor and sometimes obsolete technology. The most cutting >edge technology is in consumer electronics. It simply takes too long >for approvals so by the time an aircraft gps is approved and it may be >using technology several years old. In the gps units I am talking >about, the gps receivers weren't 12 channel and were comparing the gps >position to the other nav systems in the aircraft. The processors were >so slow that it could take up to 10 or 15 minutes for the nav system to >do all of it's testing and "lock on". We did quick turn arounds with >helicopters so burning fuel and waiting that long for a gps fix was >unacceptable. Position errors were common if one of the nav aids >dropped off line which can commonly happen in remote areas. In places >like the US where there are many nav aids, this may not be a problem. >Note that this is in units you can still buy today and are used in many >commercial aircraft. I had many conversations with the salesmen and >engineers complaining about this problem and I was not alone. Anyway, >compared to a new 12 channel gps they are expensive junk. The solution >was to throw out the $50,000 dollar unit and put in a cheaper stand >alone late model gps which didn't try to compare it's signal with >everything else in the aircraft nav system. The newer units locked on >position in less than a minute and never gave any errors. > >In my experience, gps on a boat is consistently accurate/ repeatable to >within about 50 feet when they had the position dithering turned >on......now that it is turned off, it is even better than that. If you >are getting less than that, it is probably because you are not getting a >clear view to the sky and only picking up a few satellites. If a >satellite goes below the horizon or one comes up, the geometry and >quality of the fix may change significantly. This is quite common when >in trees or among tall buildings. It is also a possibility on a boat if >getting poor signals through a fixed dodger or through a hatch on a boat. > >Cheers, Paul > >On 6/07/2012 8:41 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > Paul, all I can say from personal experience > is, I have observed sudden shifts in GPS > position, about one every few hours of > navigation. Neither I nor the satellites moved > over suddenly, so, it is somewhere in between, in the domain of the GPS unit. > > > > My colleague is an aerospace engineer who has > designed flight nav software for big commercial > jets for 3 companies, now with Rockwell, and > spent several hours explaining to me all the > problems they were finding integrating raw, > unfiltered GPS data (lat/long/altitude) into > flight nav systems. They found that signal > bounces off of buildings providing distinct > false locations not suitable for averaging were > a problem when on the ground, and signal > bounces off the ground (I seem to remember him > mentioning marshes in the clearway beyond > runways) were a problem when near the ground. > Raw GPS data is what one gets without software > filtering. He was adding software filtering so > he could use it in his autopilot flight > equations. He was explaining how he used > integrated inertial navigation acceleration and > rate data to reject spurious data coming from > the GPS. In essence, you could not have jumped > over 30m, there was no acceleration to match > that, so ignore that piece of position data as > erroneous. Inertial data is required in any > case to track the aircraft attitude, pitch, roll, yaw, etc. > > > > I suspect a lot of GPS units are displaying > something different than their raw GPS data at > a particular instant because of built in > software filtering. You might not be seeing the > erroneous data because of software at lower > levels, depending on what part of the avionics > you are working on. All of the filtering is > proprietary, and it is how various companies > sell their GPS as superior to others when they > all start with the same satellites, the same > math to combine GPS signals, and sometimes even > the same signal processing chip. > > > > Car GPS units do a lot of software and are > sometimes easy to catch making what can only be > assumptions originating in the software, not > coming from the GPS data at all. For instance, > most will try to show your position as being on > a road it knows about in its internal map. If > one turns off of a road on an unmapped laneway, > very close to an intersection, very often the > GPS unit will show you driving on the parallel > road it knows about. If you then take a 45 > degree turn and start driving through a parking > lot / yard diagonally away from the > intersection you can see the software having a > real problem deciding what it is you are doing > and where you really are. If you have up to > date maps in the unit and stay on paved roads, > you seldom see any errors because of the software. > > > > My GPS is more basic, with I believe less > software in it. It has a position averaging > feature that I have used when laying out > logging roads in the bush, and, have used it to > bring roads together with no noticeable offset > of kink. I have caught it showing me obviously > wrong data however. My gut feeling with my unit > is, it has never been wrong by more than 100m, > seldom more than 30m, and if you hold it still > and let it average when it is getting good > reception from many satellites, it will compute > averages down to less than a meter. My unit is > 12 channel but may not have the software > updates for the most recent 2 satellites in the constellation. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: opusnz@... > > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 07:08:58 +1200 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/07/2012 1:13 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > >> GPS signals also bounce off metal buildings and give ghost positions > >> -- a colleague designs aircraft nav systems for a big aerospace > >> company and this is a big problem, surprisingly, at airports where > >> there are a lot of hangars. If you are "near" shore with a lot of > >> metal buildings that are comparable to the size of hangars, you should > >> watch your GPS too. > > > > > > I am an avionics engineer and I have never heard of that. It is a > > > > possibility if you are only getting a few satellites that one satellite > > > > dropping on or off line will cause a poorer position fix but I am pretty > > > > sure it is not because of signals bouncing. Car gps units would go nuts > > > > if that was the case. When they do an approval for a gps route or > > > > landing at an airport, they are making sure there is full coverage and > > > > no interference by flying many passes with a test aircraft before > > > > granting approval. There are some radio frequencies that can interfere > > > > with a gps reception but this is more a problem with the aircraft's own > > > > radios. With a full satellite constellation now and with much faster > > > > and better 12 channel gps receivers, there are seldom find any problems. > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > | 28531|14263|2012-07-10 12:48:38|Gord Schnell|Re: Test|No one here but is chickens ;-)) Sent from my iPhone On 2012-07-10, at 6:42 AM, Dave L wrote: > Testing. No new messages for a couple of days after seeing an ominous > message... > > *Unfortunately, the time has come to say goodbye to Yahoo! Groups Labs > Applications (beta) and Groups Chat...* > * > * > Are we still here? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28532|28532|2012-07-10 16:33:38|wild_explorer|Zinc primer (small aerosol can)|A while ago I was asking about zinc primer for small parts and touch-up after welding. Radnor Cold Galvanizing Compound Zinc-Rich Primer (## 64000130, 64000131) meet some military-specs. Comes in 14oz or 12oz cans. Price is about $7-9 per can. Info from the label of # 64000130: 97% pure zinc dust pigment blended with epoxy resin. Dries to touch in 15 min., above 32F. May be re-coated after 2-16 hours or after 36 hours. Reaches full cure in 7 to 10 days. ## 64000130 and 64000131 have slightly different mil-specs. Matte (# 64000130) - MIL-PRF-25915D Gloss (# 64000131) - MIL-P-21035, MIL-P-46105 MIL-PRF-26915D, PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATION, PRIMER COATING, FOR STEEL SURFACES (31 OCT 1997) [SUPERSEDING MIL-P-26915C]., This specification covers two types of primer coatings. The primers are compatible with aliphatic polyurethane and enamel topcoats and have reduced volatile organic compound (VOC) content. MIL-P-46105 (NOTICE 1), MILITARY SPECIFICATION: PRIMER COATING, WELD-THROUGH, ZINC-RICH (03-MAR-1997) [S/S BY SSPC-PAINT30]. MIL-P-21035, Organic-Inorganic Zinc Rich Primer.| 28533|28485|2012-07-10 16:55:25|Paul Wilson|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|On 11/07/2012 3:03 a.m., Darren Bos wrote: > Take a GPS, set it down somewhere > solid and let it record a track for 24 hrs. The > track will go for a walk without the GPS having > moved. Sometimes and places this will be a small > errror. Surprisingly often, the track will cover significant distance. Yes, but this is the position changing from the geometry of the satellites and quality of fix changing, not because of signal bounces. I used to plot the track as a test of gps quality when I worked as a bench tech. The position used to dither more than 150 meters even with a good gps when there wasn't a full satellite constellation and when they had the Selective Availability (SA) turned on. SA was turned off in 2000 so now it is practically less than 15 meters. Once in awhile you get poor satellite geometry for a fix but this is now rare. I really doubt that the high frequency used in gps could ever bounce off a mountain or a cliff like a lower radio frequency can. I concede it could possibly bounce off a metal building but the signal would be extremely weak. In working around aircraft for many years next to metal hangers and buildings, I have never seen it. If there is a large jump in position, it has always been due to not getting enough satellites with a satellite critical to a good fix coming on or off line. Anyway, it is all academic. With a good installation on a boat and a clear view of the sky, you should always get probably 7 satellites or more and have a good solid fix, with no significant position jumps. Cheers, Paul| 28534|28485|2012-07-10 19:11:30|Darren Bos|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|Your right that satellite geometry is changing, and that affects accuracy. But, the changing satellite geometry also means that without moving the receiver you can have a reflection (multipath error) come and go and this does effect accuracy. A GPS position is determined by distance from receiver to the satellites, which is determined by the time it takes the signal to reach you. Anything that effects this timing effects accuracy. When you leave a receiver sitting in one spot the geometry between it and a satellite changes, so you may have a problem with reflection at one time and not at another, no need to move the gps to have a reflection come and go. While doing GPS survey work I have seen problems that I could only ascribe to reflection (multipath) and the problem can be very local (moving the receiver a short distance without a change in the number of satellites observed solves the problem). There are a bunch of things that effect GPS error: satellite geometry, satellite number, reflection, tropospheric and ionospheric impacts on propagation, clock error, etc.... I agree that you get great accuracy most of the time, but it is worthwhile to know the limitations. Most folks here are building boats to travel about, and some of them are going to go places where GPS accuracy is going to be compromised. Heading up a narrow fjord at high latitude is one example. Satellite coverage is great a lower latitudes, but gets progressively worse as you increase in latitude, not only are there fewer satellites, but their geometry is worse. Further, multipath (reflection) issues also become worse with compromised satellite geometry and if you can't get WAAS (or equivalent) coverage you can't correct for ionospheric or tropospheric effects, which are also worse as latitude increases. While this example might be considered extreme, there are a lot of intermediate cases where GPS error can catch you if you trust it too much. Multipath off a big freighter in a narrow channel at night.... Multipath off the rock cliff in the narrow harbor entrance that you marked with a waypoint for the big underwater rock last week (remember changing satellite geometry changes multipath) etc...... Darren At 01:53 PM 10/07/2012, you wrote: >Yes, but this is the position changing from the geometry of the >satellites and quality of fix changing, not because of signal bounces. >snip >. In working around aircraft for many years next to >metal hangers and buildings, I have never seen it. If there is a large >jump in position, it has always been due to not getting enough >satellites with a satellite critical to a good fix coming on or off line. > >Anyway, it is all academic. With a good installation on a boat and a >clear view of the sky, you should always get probably 7 satellites or >more and have a good solid fix, with no significant position jumps. > >Cheers, Paul > > | 28535|28532|2012-07-10 20:45:14|brentswain38|Re: Zinc primer (small aerosol can)|With the temperature rising to 30 degrees here, and a boat to build, I'm wondering if you have found a white, epoxy compatible primer which could go over zinc, to keep things cool.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > A while ago I was asking about zinc primer for small parts and touch-up after welding. > > Radnor Cold Galvanizing Compound Zinc-Rich Primer (## 64000130, 64000131) meet some military-specs. Comes in 14oz or 12oz cans. Price is about $7-9 per can. > > Info from the label of # 64000130: 97% pure zinc dust pigment blended with epoxy resin. Dries to touch in 15 min., above 32F. May be re-coated after 2-16 hours or after 36 hours. Reaches full cure in 7 to 10 days. > > ## 64000130 and 64000131 have slightly different mil-specs. > > Matte (# 64000130) - MIL-PRF-25915D > Gloss (# 64000131) - MIL-P-21035, MIL-P-46105 > > MIL-PRF-26915D, PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATION, PRIMER COATING, FOR STEEL SURFACES (31 OCT 1997) [SUPERSEDING MIL-P-26915C]., This specification covers two types of primer coatings. The primers are compatible with aliphatic polyurethane and enamel topcoats and have reduced volatile organic compound (VOC) content. > > MIL-P-46105 (NOTICE 1), MILITARY SPECIFICATION: PRIMER COATING, WELD-THROUGH, ZINC-RICH (03-MAR-1997) [S/S BY SSPC-PAINT30]. > > MIL-P-21035, Organic-Inorganic Zinc Rich Primer. > | 28536|28485|2012-07-10 20:49:59|brentswain38|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|Don't expect your charts to be as accurate as your GPS. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Your right that satellite geometry is changing, > and that affects accuracy. But, the changing > satellite geometry also means that without moving > the receiver you can have a reflection (multipath > error) come and go and this does effect accuracy. > > A GPS position is determined by distance from > receiver to the satellites, which is determined > by the time it takes the signal to reach > you. Anything that effects this timing effects > accuracy. When you leave a receiver sitting in > one spot the geometry between it and a satellite > changes, so you may have a problem with > reflection at one time and not at another, no > need to move the gps to have a reflection come > and go. While doing GPS survey work I have seen > problems that I could only ascribe to reflection > (multipath) and the problem can be very local > (moving the receiver a short distance without a > change in the number of satellites observed solves the problem). > > There are a bunch of things that effect GPS > error: satellite geometry, satellite number, > reflection, tropospheric and ionospheric impacts > on propagation, clock error, etc.... I agree > that you get great accuracy most of the time, but > it is worthwhile to know the limitations. Most > folks here are building boats to travel about, > and some of them are going to go places where GPS > accuracy is going to be compromised. Heading up > a narrow fjord at high latitude is one > example. Satellite coverage is great a lower > latitudes, but gets progressively worse as you > increase in latitude, not only are there fewer > satellites, but their geometry is > worse. Further, multipath (reflection) issues > also become worse with compromised satellite > geometry and if you can't get WAAS (or > equivalent) coverage you can't correct for > ionospheric or tropospheric effects, which are > also worse as latitude increases. While this > example might be considered extreme, there are a > lot of intermediate cases where GPS error can > catch you if you trust it too much. Multipath > off a big freighter in a narrow channel at > night.... Multipath off the rock cliff in the > narrow harbor entrance that you marked with a > waypoint for the big underwater rock last week > (remember changing satellite geometry changes multipath) etc...... > > Darren > > > At 01:53 PM 10/07/2012, you wrote: > > >Yes, but this is the position changing from the geometry of the > >satellites and quality of fix changing, not because of signal bounces. > >snip > >. In working around aircraft for many years next to > >metal hangers and buildings, I have never seen it. If there is a large > >jump in position, it has always been due to not getting enough > >satellites with a satellite critical to a good fix coming on or off line. > > > >Anyway, it is all academic. With a good installation on a boat and a > >clear view of the sky, you should always get probably 7 satellites or > >more and have a good solid fix, with no significant position jumps. > > > >Cheers, Paul > > > > > | 28537|28485|2012-07-10 22:37:06|Matt Malone|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|All these inaccuracies can add, or partially cancel each other. Good agreement at one time might lead to inappropriate confidence at another time. If one is close enough to trouble that it is a threat, lets hope it is daylight and then visual ranges are probably the best to find your location on the chart, so long as it is locally self-consistent. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 00:49:57 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) Don't expect your charts to be as accurate as your GPS. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Your right that satellite geometry is changing, > and that affects accuracy. But, the changing > satellite geometry also means that without moving > the receiver you can have a reflection (multipath > error) come and go and this does effect accuracy. > > A GPS position is determined by distance from > receiver to the satellites, which is determined > by the time it takes the signal to reach > you. Anything that effects this timing effects > accuracy. When you leave a receiver sitting in > one spot the geometry between it and a satellite > changes, so you may have a problem with > reflection at one time and not at another, no > need to move the gps to have a reflection come > and go. While doing GPS survey work I have seen > problems that I could only ascribe to reflection > (multipath) and the problem can be very local > (moving the receiver a short distance without a > change in the number of satellites observed solves the problem). > > There are a bunch of things that effect GPS > error: satellite geometry, satellite number, > reflection, tropospheric and ionospheric impacts > on propagation, clock error, etc.... I agree > that you get great accuracy most of the time, but > it is worthwhile to know the limitations. Most > folks here are building boats to travel about, > and some of them are going to go places where GPS > accuracy is going to be compromised. Heading up > a narrow fjord at high latitude is one > example. Satellite coverage is great a lower > latitudes, but gets progressively worse as you > increase in latitude, not only are there fewer > satellites, but their geometry is > worse. Further, multipath (reflection) issues > also become worse with compromised satellite > geometry and if you can't get WAAS (or > equivalent) coverage you can't correct for > ionospheric or tropospheric effects, which are > also worse as latitude increases. While this > example might be considered extreme, there are a > lot of intermediate cases where GPS error can > catch you if you trust it too much. Multipath > off a big freighter in a narrow channel at > night.... Multipath off the rock cliff in the > narrow harbor entrance that you marked with a > waypoint for the big underwater rock last week > (remember changing satellite geometry changes multipath) etc...... > > Darren > > > At 01:53 PM 10/07/2012, you wrote: > > >Yes, but this is the position changing from the geometry of the > >satellites and quality of fix changing, not because of signal bounces. > >snip > >. In working around aircraft for many years next to > >metal hangers and buildings, I have never seen it. If there is a large > >jump in position, it has always been due to not getting enough > >satellites with a satellite critical to a good fix coming on or off line. > > > >Anyway, it is all academic. With a good installation on a boat and a > >clear view of the sky, you should always get probably 7 satellites or > >more and have a good solid fix, with no significant position jumps. > > > >Cheers, Paul > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28538|28532|2012-07-10 23:50:57|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer (small aerosol can)|30 degrees Celsius? 86F? I do not think there is white zinc primer. I think I saw primer in Aluminum/Silver color (mix of Zinc and Alum?), but do not remember where and what brand now. Someone can try to find the colors for some primers at http://www.international-marine.com/products/search-products.aspx Choose primers in "Category" drop down menu. Then it is need to go through each datasheet to see what colors are available for the product. Pre-construction shop primers are usually gray, red, brown or green. It might be easier just to put reflective tarp over the hull to keep it cool inside. White finish paint is available (example: Formula 152 Topcoat (MIL-DTL-24441) OK... I was searching for weld-trough zinc primer alum color and found this one (Google search might give you more choices). Have no idea if it is suitable for marine use http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pdf/other/np-silver_zinc_primer_70.pdf --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With the temperature rising to 30 degrees here, and a boat to build, I'm wondering if you have found a white, epoxy compatible primer which could go over zinc, to keep things cool.. > | 28539|28539|2012-07-11 02:07:23|wild_explorer|Affordable industrial grade 115/208/230V TIG/Stick/MIG welder|I missed the release date, but finally dual-voltage (115/208/230V) welder "Fabricator 211i" is available. Price is about $1100. Not cheap, but it is industrial grade welder... http://victortechnologies.com/Thermal%20Arc%203in1/Fabricator%20211i/product_features.php| 28540|28532|2012-07-11 11:54:11|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|I was searching for some Brent's recommendations (stored on my computer) about primers/coatings/painting.... I really like this website. It allows to search for products for your application (hull, water tank, etc) http://www.wassercoatings.com/SystemFinder.html http://www.wassercoatings.com/primers.html It has the information about compatibility and gives all information about suitable applications (from primers to top-coats). Unfortunately, I could not find yet wheelabrating company around here which use these products.| 28541|28532|2012-07-11 15:15:30|Paul Wilson|Re: Zinc primer|I would only use a primer that the wheelabrating company has used before. I asked them to use a weld-able primer that was supposed to be the latest and greatest and better than the carboweld they normally used. Because they weren't used to it, they screwed it up and put it on too thin. I had to sandblast the boat later due to all the rust that bled through during construction. What a pain.... Paul On 12/07/2012 3:54 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > I was searching for some Brent's recommendations (stored on my > computer) about primers/coatings/painting.... I really like this > website. It allows to search for products for your application (hull, > water tank, etc) > > http://www.wassercoatings.com/SystemFinder.html > > http://www.wassercoatings.com/primers.html > > It has the information about compatibility and gives all information > about suitable applications (from primers to top-coats). > > Unfortunately, I could not find yet wheelabrating company around here > which use these products. > > | 28542|28485|2012-07-11 15:31:46|Paul Wilson|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|On 11/07/2012 12:49 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > Don't expect your charts to be as accurate as your GPS. This is one of the things that scares me about people using electronic chart plotters. The electronic charts data comes from the same survey as the paper charts but on a paper chart there is the blurb near the title telling you if it has been satellite corrected or not and to what datum. On the Cmap program on my computer I can see where the chart data comes from but on many of the typical boat plotters you can't. I know of people who hit reefs in Fiji trusting their plotter just because it had been right in one area so assumed it was right in another. If they had been using a paper chart, it would have been easy to read if the correction for satellite had been applied as they moved on to the new chart. The east side of Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa were all way off on the charts....more than a mile in some places. I have heard that Tonga recently did a full survey of Vavau and that Fiji has now corrected their charts as well...with so many people using gps there is tremendous pressure to get charts satellite corrected so it keeps improving. Paul| 28543|28485|2012-07-11 15:57:56|Matt Malone|Seeing reefs and other underwater features|Originally this was about inaccurate charts in Fiji and people running up on reefs.... Lets assume this is daylight, so in ideal conditions one has chosen to stay completely away from reefs until daylight. Standing on deck, if the swell is not too high, would you be able to see the break of the waves on a 4-foot submerged reef from a full mile away ? I would tend to doubt there would be any reliability in it, unless one were studying the waves carefully. Similarly, I would think that finding the pass in the reef would be equally unreliable from such a distance, in low swell conditions. A hundred yards or less, it would seem the swell would have to be pretty flat to not notice the change in the waves from reef to no-reef areas. Has anyone considered a camera with a polarized lens in the mast head pointed down to take in the bow of the boat, and those underwater features directly in front of the boat ? Sort of like this view, but forward instead of aft: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-t3uQ12OyO3g/Tf9fkQnt3NI/AAAAAAAANWU/wn1JkHa0lwk/GoPro%2525201005a.jpg It would seem to have a longer view than a person standing on the bow. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:30:22 +1200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) On 11/07/2012 12:49 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > Don't expect your charts to be as accurate as your GPS. This is one of the things that scares me about people using electronic chart plotters. The electronic charts data comes from the same survey as the paper charts but on a paper chart there is the blurb near the title telling you if it has been satellite corrected or not and to what datum. On the Cmap program on my computer I can see where the chart data comes from but on many of the typical boat plotters you can't. I know of people who hit reefs in Fiji trusting their plotter just because it had been right in one area so assumed it was right in another. If they had been using a paper chart, it would have been easy to read if the correction for satellite had been applied as they moved on to the new chart. The east side of Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa were all way off on the charts....more than a mile in some places. I have heard that Tonga recently did a full survey of Vavau and that Fiji has now corrected their charts as well...with so many people using gps there is tremendous pressure to get charts satellite corrected so it keeps improving. Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28544|28485|2012-07-11 16:13:20|Maxime Camirand|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|Navigating near reefs at night, trusting only your GPS, is plain stupidity, and bad seamanship.| 28545|28485|2012-07-11 17:19:31|Paul Wilson|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|Getting high in the rigging definitely improves visibility ......I keep polarized sunglasses handy and have mast steps so I can quickly climb up and have a look. It is good but you can't assume this will always work. Most of the time the visibility is less than ideal and the problem is not so much a large reef system, it is the lone coral head or rock sticking up in the middle of nowhere. I have entered reef systems with good visibility only to have a squall come and turn everything black. There is also sometimes water run off from rivers or rainfall which may make seeing the reefs impossible. Keep in mind that some of the reef systems may take an hour or two of travel to get into the anchorage. Go to Google Earth and look at the north side of Viti Levu or north side of Vanua Levu in Fiji to see what I mean. Everybody says they won't navigate around reefs unless they have good visibility but in a large reef system, you will eventually get caught out. Using gps and saving waypoints and tracks when in good visibility will get your ass out of a jam when you are in the sh%&. If all this makes you say that you will never sail in such an area, you are missing out. I used gps to the maximum and never once touched a reef in 8+ years with many, many trips among the reefs. I eventually had the confidence (and track plots) to sail at night and seek the safety of a good cyclone hole no matter what the weather. It was never a choice but if I had an emergency, I could do it. Those relying on traditional methods were either too scared to sail anywhere or hit the reefs continually. I know of one experienced cruiser who spent more time in the boat yard after bouncing off reefs than sailing. He had plenty of time to fix his boat but no time to learn how to use a gps. Makes no sense to me. I know of another cruiser who had sailed into a bay and anchored but a sudden storm came that forced them to leave at night. They hadn't saved a track plot when they went in so had nothing to follow out and ended up wrecking their boat. This was totally avoidable but typical of the cruisers who said they didn't trust gps. Cheers, Paul On 12/07/2012 7:57 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Originally this was about inaccurate charts in Fiji and people running > up on reefs.... > > Lets assume this is daylight, so in ideal conditions one has chosen to > stay completely away from reefs until daylight. > > Standing on deck, if the swell is not too high, would you be able to > see the break of the waves on a 4-foot submerged reef from a full mile > away ? I would tend to doubt there would be any reliability in it, > unless one were studying the waves carefully. Similarly, I would think > that finding the pass in the reef would be equally unreliable from > such a distance, in low swell conditions. A hundred yards or less, it > would seem the swell would have to be pretty flat to not notice the > change in the waves from reef to no-reef areas. > > Has anyone considered a camera with a polarized lens in the mast head > pointed down to take in the bow of the boat, and those underwater > features directly in front of the boat ? Sort of like this view, but > forward instead of aft: > > https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-t3uQ12OyO3g/Tf9fkQnt3NI/AAAAAAAANWU/wn1JkHa0lwk/GoPro%2525201005a.jpg > > It would seem to have a longer view than a person standing on the bow. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:30:22 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > On 11/07/2012 12:49 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > Don't expect your charts to be as accurate as your GPS. > > This is one of the things that scares me about people using electronic > > chart plotters. The electronic charts data comes from the same survey > > as the paper charts but on a paper chart there is the blurb near the > > title telling you if it has been satellite corrected or not and to what > > datum. On the Cmap program on my computer I can see where the chart > > data comes from but on many of the typical boat plotters you can't. I > > know of people who hit reefs in Fiji trusting their plotter just because > > it had been right in one area so assumed it was right in another. If > > they had been using a paper chart, it would have been easy to read if > > the correction for satellite had been applied as they moved on to the > > new chart. > > The east side of Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa were all way off on the > > charts....more than a mile in some places. I have heard that Tonga > > recently did a full survey of Vavau and that Fiji has now corrected > > their charts as well...with so many people using gps there is tremendous > > pressure to get charts satellite corrected so it keeps improving. > > Paul > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 28546|28485|2012-07-11 17:39:17|Paul Wilson|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|Apologies for being on a soapbox....I did navigation seminars for cruisers while in Fiji and I feel quite passionate about it after seeing so many boats get wrecked. Paul On 12/07/2012 9:18 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > Getting high in the rigging definitely improves visibility ......I keep > polarized sunglasses handy and have mast steps so I can quickly climb up > and have a look. It is good but you can't assume this will always work. > Most of the time the visibility is less than ideal and the problem is > not so much a large reef system, it is the lone coral head or rock > sticking up in the middle of nowhere. I have entered reef systems with > good visibility only to have a squall come and turn everything black. > There is also sometimes water run off from rivers or rainfall which may > make seeing the reefs impossible. Keep in mind that some of the reef > systems may take an hour or two of travel to get into the anchorage. Go > to Google Earth and look at the north side of Viti Levu or north side of > Vanua Levu in Fiji to see what I mean. Everybody says they won't > navigate around reefs unless they have good visibility but in a large > reef system, you will eventually get caught out. Using gps and saving > waypoints and tracks when in good visibility will get your ass out of a > jam when you are in the sh%&. > > If all this makes you say that you will never sail in such an area, you > are missing out. I used gps to the maximum and never once touched a reef > in 8+ years with many, many trips among the reefs. I eventually had the > confidence (and track plots) to sail at night and seek the safety of a > good cyclone hole no matter what the weather. It was never a choice but > if I had an emergency, I could do it. Those relying on traditional > methods were either too scared to sail anywhere or hit the reefs > continually. I know of one experienced cruiser who spent more time in > the boat yard after bouncing off reefs than sailing. He had plenty of > time to fix his boat but no time to learn how to use a gps. Makes no > sense to me. I know of another cruiser who had sailed into a bay and > anchored but a sudden storm came that forced them to leave at night. > They hadn't saved a track plot when they went in so had nothing to > follow out and ended up wrecking their boat. This was totally avoidable > but typical of the cruisers who said they didn't trust gps. > > Cheers, Paul > > > On 12/07/2012 7:57 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: >> >> >> Originally this was about inaccurate charts in Fiji and people running >> up on reefs.... >> >> Lets assume this is daylight, so in ideal conditions one has chosen to >> stay completely away from reefs until daylight. >> >> Standing on deck, if the swell is not too high, would you be able to >> see the break of the waves on a 4-foot submerged reef from a full mile >> away ? I would tend to doubt there would be any reliability in it, >> unless one were studying the waves carefully. Similarly, I would think >> that finding the pass in the reef would be equally unreliable from >> such a distance, in low swell conditions. A hundred yards or less, it >> would seem the swell would have to be pretty flat to not notice the >> change in the waves from reef to no-reef areas. >> >> Has anyone considered a camera with a polarized lens in the mast head >> pointed down to take in the bow of the boat, and those underwater >> features directly in front of the boat ? Sort of like this view, but >> forward instead of aft: >> >> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-t3uQ12OyO3g/Tf9fkQnt3NI/AAAAAAAANWU/wn1JkHa0lwk/GoPro%2525201005a.jpg >> >> It would seem to have a longer view than a person standing on the bow. >> >> Matt >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: opusnz@... >> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:30:22 +1200 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) >> >> On 11/07/2012 12:49 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: >> >>> Don't expect your charts to be as accurate as your GPS. >> This is one of the things that scares me about people using electronic >> >> chart plotters. The electronic charts data comes from the same survey >> >> as the paper charts but on a paper chart there is the blurb near the >> >> title telling you if it has been satellite corrected or not and to what >> >> datum. On the Cmap program on my computer I can see where the chart >> >> data comes from but on many of the typical boat plotters you can't. I >> >> know of people who hit reefs in Fiji trusting their plotter just because >> >> it had been right in one area so assumed it was right in another. If >> >> they had been using a paper chart, it would have been easy to read if >> >> the correction for satellite had been applied as they moved on to the >> >> new chart. >> >> The east side of Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa were all way off on the >> >> charts....more than a mile in some places. I have heard that Tonga >> >> recently did a full survey of Vavau and that Fiji has now corrected >> >> their charts as well...with so many people using gps there is tremendous >> >> pressure to get charts satellite corrected so it keeps improving. >> >> Paul >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 28547|28485|2012-07-11 17:47:37|Matt Malone|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|A past-track plot has the advantage that it is a record of where the boat has been before, not a chart. The only errors are the error in following it, and the difference between one GPS reading at one time and a GPS reading at another time. We have already covered how that may change, but, if one looked at the passage on the way in, and marked the features of interest as waypoints -- like the narrowest point in the pass for instance, then, well, it is way better than nothing which is pretty much what you would have leaving an uncontrolled anchorage at night. Past-track has no errors originating in the chart and GPS disagreeing about where things are. In the scenario you give, with apparently no option to stay, one would have no alternative. The weather is not perfectly know, or sometimes information is simply not available, so, it is not always possible to know what bay might become a lee shore in a few hours. So, if one ventures into uncontrolled bays -- no buoys -- this scenario is a risk. If one were uncomfortable relying solely on one navigation aid at a critical moment, then one has the option of choosing their bays more carefully, either ones with very wide mouths where GPS wander will not put you on the rocks, or stay out of the ones that have any exposure. I imagine one cannot be completely perfect at that either, just saying, making choices before hand is another option. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:18:05 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing reefs and other underwater features > > Getting high in the rigging definitely improves visibility ......I keep > polarized sunglasses handy and have mast steps so I can quickly climb up > and have a look. It is good but you can't assume this will always work. > Most of the time the visibility is less than ideal and the problem is > not so much a large reef system, it is the lone coral head or rock > sticking up in the middle of nowhere. I have entered reef systems with > good visibility only to have a squall come and turn everything black. > There is also sometimes water run off from rivers or rainfall which may > make seeing the reefs impossible. Keep in mind that some of the reef > systems may take an hour or two of travel to get into the anchorage. Go > to Google Earth and look at the north side of Viti Levu or north side of > Vanua Levu in Fiji to see what I mean. Everybody says they won't > navigate around reefs unless they have good visibility but in a large > reef system, you will eventually get caught out. Using gps and saving > waypoints and tracks when in good visibility will get your ass out of a > jam when you are in the sh%&. > > If all this makes you say that you will never sail in such an area, you > are missing out. I used gps to the maximum and never once touched a reef > in 8+ years with many, many trips among the reefs. I eventually had the > confidence (and track plots) to sail at night and seek the safety of a > good cyclone hole no matter what the weather. It was never a choice but > if I had an emergency, I could do it. Those relying on traditional > methods were either too scared to sail anywhere or hit the reefs > continually. I know of one experienced cruiser who spent more time in > the boat yard after bouncing off reefs than sailing. He had plenty of > time to fix his boat but no time to learn how to use a gps. Makes no > sense to me. I know of another cruiser who had sailed into a bay and > anchored but a sudden storm came that forced them to leave at night. > They hadn't saved a track plot when they went in so had nothing to > follow out and ended up wrecking their boat. This was totally avoidable > but typical of the cruisers who said they didn't trust gps. > > Cheers, Paul > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28548|28532|2012-07-11 17:53:39|Tom Pee|Re: Zinc primer (small aerosol can)|Think most epoxies are colorless or slightly brown from the hardener until pigment is added.    Btw Brent, Is it lawful to just exist the exhaust pipe right into the water?  Was talking to a diesel mechanic who worked on boats and he said rather a muffler in the old days thats what they did but, now it is illegal as it contaminates the water. ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 11:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer (small aerosol can)   30 degrees Celsius? 86F? I do not think there is white zinc primer. I think I saw primer in Aluminum/Silver color (mix of Zinc and Alum?), but do not remember where and what brand now. Someone can try to find the colors for some primers at http://www.international-marine.com/products/search-products.aspx Choose primers in "Category" drop down menu. Then it is need to go through each datasheet to see what colors are available for the product. Pre-construction shop primers are usually gray, red, brown or green. It might be easier just to put reflective tarp over the hull to keep it cool inside. White finish paint is available (example: Formula 152 Topcoat (MIL-DTL-24441) OK... I was searching for weld-trough zinc primer alum color and found this one (Google search might give you more choices). Have no idea if it is suitable for marine use http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pdf/other/np-silver_zinc_primer_70.pdf --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With the temperature rising to 30 degrees here, and a boat to build, I'm wondering if you have found a white, epoxy compatible primer which could go over zinc, to keep things cool.. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28549|28532|2012-07-11 17:56:48|brentswain38|Re: Zinc primer (small aerosol can)|All wet exhuasts and many dry exhuasts do exactly that. Not running ehuast directty into the water doesn't remove anything from the exhuast. It all ends up there anyway. Try find a wet exhuast that doesnt. Your mechanic friend is full of shit. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > Think most epoxies are colorless or slightly brown from the hardener until pigment is added.  >   > Btw Brent, > Is it lawful to just exist the exhaust pipe right into the water?  Was talking to a diesel mechanic who worked on boats and he said rather a muffler in the old days thats what they did but, now it is illegal as it contaminates the water. > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 11:50 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer (small aerosol can) > > > >   > > 30 degrees Celsius? 86F? I do not think there is white zinc primer. I think I saw primer in Aluminum/Silver color (mix of Zinc and Alum?), but do not remember where and what brand now. > > Someone can try to find the colors for some primers at > > http://www.international-marine.com/products/search-products.aspx > > Choose primers in "Category" drop down menu. Then it is need to go through each datasheet to see what colors are available for the product. Pre-construction shop primers are usually gray, red, brown or green. > > It might be easier just to put reflective tarp over the hull to keep it cool inside. > > White finish paint is available (example: Formula 152 Topcoat (MIL-DTL-24441) > > OK... I was searching for weld-trough zinc primer alum color and found this one (Google search might give you more choices). Have no idea if it is suitable for marine use > > http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pdf/other/np-silver_zinc_primer_70.pdf > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > With the temperature rising to 30 degrees here, and a boat to build, I'm wondering if you have found a white, epoxy compatible primer which could go over zinc, to keep things cool.. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28550|28532|2012-07-11 17:59:03|brentswain38|Re: Zinc primer (small aerosol can)|It's extremely difficult to get anything to stick to aluminium primer. It also doesnt keep things cool. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > 30 degrees Celsius? 86F? I do not think there is white zinc primer. I think I saw primer in Aluminum/Silver color (mix of Zinc and Alum?), but do not remember where and what brand now. > > Someone can try to find the colors for some primers at > > http://www.international-marine.com/products/search-products.aspx > > Choose primers in "Category" drop down menu. Then it is need to go through each datasheet to see what colors are available for the product. Pre-construction shop primers are usually gray, red, brown or green. > > It might be easier just to put reflective tarp over the hull to keep it cool inside. > > White finish paint is available (example: Formula 152 Topcoat (MIL-DTL-24441) > > OK... I was searching for weld-trough zinc primer alum color and found this one (Google search might give you more choices). Have no idea if it is suitable for marine use > > http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pdf/other/np-silver_zinc_primer_70.pdf > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > With the temperature rising to 30 degrees here, and a boat to build, I'm wondering if you have found a white, epoxy compatible primer which could go over zinc, to keep things cool.. > > > | 28551|28532|2012-07-11 18:14:00|brentswain38|Re: Zinc primer|I have put wasser tar over the wheelabrading zinc primer, and over devoe green primer, with no problems. When you get the hull and decks pulled together it's a good idea to give the works another coat of zinc primer, so you dont end up having to sandblast. The manufacturers like to convince you to waste a lot of money and time sandblasting an already blasted and primed surface, so you end up buying more of their products. The needless expense of blasting is your problem, it only improves their bottom line, at your expense. Avoid any vinyl based primers, like International Nu Plate F, as nothing will stick to it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I would only use a primer that the wheelabrating company has used > before. I asked them to use a weld-able primer that was supposed to be > the latest and greatest and better than the carboweld they normally > used. Because they weren't used to it, they screwed it up and put it on > too thin. I had to sandblast the boat later due to all the rust that > bled through during construction. > > What a pain.... > > Paul > > On 12/07/2012 3:54 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > I was searching for some Brent's recommendations (stored on my > > computer) about primers/coatings/painting.... I really like this > > website. It allows to search for products for your application (hull, > > water tank, etc) > > > > http://www.wassercoatings.com/SystemFinder.html > > > > http://www.wassercoatings.com/primers.html > > > > It has the information about compatibility and gives all information > > about suitable applications (from primers to top-coats). > > > > Unfortunately, I could not find yet wheelabrating company around here > > which use these products. > > > > > | 28552|28485|2012-07-11 18:16:00|Matt Malone|Yachting months crash test boat series of videos|I have just found a series of interesting videos "yachting months crash test boat....." dismasting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-jqwkNXMIY&feature=relmfu jury rig: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64l29uncetY capsize: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqe1Sxa2GXo&feature=relmfu holed part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRhcXBtmPQs holed part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUg3TUmnQBs&feature=relmfu through-hull failure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5PDuXvqL7c propane explosion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxm3uMy6MPI&feature=relmfu I found the visuals informative -- for instance, how fast water comes in through a failed through-hull. I liked watching the options they tried with the through-hull failure, including a potato, carrot, etc. Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28553|28485|2012-07-11 18:17:08|brentswain38|Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C)|Be super careful when crossing the equator. Its easy to make the mistake of plotting lattitude for a way point in the wrong direction after doing it that way for so long in the other hemisphere. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > On 11/07/2012 12:49 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Don't expect your charts to be as accurate as your GPS. > > This is one of the things that scares me about people using electronic > chart plotters. The electronic charts data comes from the same survey > as the paper charts but on a paper chart there is the blurb near the > title telling you if it has been satellite corrected or not and to what > datum. On the Cmap program on my computer I can see where the chart > data comes from but on many of the typical boat plotters you can't. I > know of people who hit reefs in Fiji trusting their plotter just because > it had been right in one area so assumed it was right in another. If > they had been using a paper chart, it would have been easy to read if > the correction for satellite had been applied as they moved on to the > new chart. > > The east side of Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa were all way off on the > charts....more than a mile in some places. I have heard that Tonga > recently did a full survey of Vavau and that Fiji has now corrected > their charts as well...with so many people using gps there is tremendous > pressure to get charts satellite corrected so it keeps improving. > > Paul > | 28554|28485|2012-07-11 18:20:22|Paul Wilson|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|Not many bays in the tropics are as you describe so sometimes it is a question of go anyway or stay home. It is not without risk but I think it is worth it and when done right, relatively safe. In Fiji and most other places I have sailed in the tropics, a mark on a reef may just be a stick placed by a local. Buoys and cardinal marks are quite often missing or moved by storms. Gps is pretty much all you have in poor visibility unless you also have a radar, which I also love to use. Depthsounders can help but a lot of the reef systems are all or nothing when it comes to depth. As I said before, I never experience gps wander of more than about 10 meters. I guess it can happen, but I have just never seen it. Paul On 12/07/2012 9:47 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > A past-track plot has the advantage that it is a record of where the > boat has been before, not a chart. The only errors are the error in > following it, and the difference between one GPS reading at one time > and a GPS reading at another time. We have already covered how that > may change, but, if one looked at the passage on the way in, and > marked the features of interest as waypoints -- like the narrowest > point in the pass for instance, then, well, it is way better than > nothing which is pretty much what you would have leaving an > uncontrolled anchorage at night. Past-track has no errors originating > in the chart and GPS disagreeing about where things are. In the > scenario you give, with apparently no option to stay, one would have > no alternative. The weather is not perfectly know, or sometimes > information is simply > not available, so, it is not always possible to know what bay might > become a lee shore in a few hours. So, if one ventures into > uncontrolled bays -- no buoys -- this scenario is a risk. > > If one were uncomfortable relying solely on one navigation aid at a > critical moment, then one has the option of choosing their bays more > carefully, either ones with very wide mouths where GPS wander will not > put you on the rocks, or stay out of the ones that have any exposure. > I imagine one cannot be completely perfect at that either, just > saying, making choices before hand is another option. > > Matt > | 28555|28485|2012-07-11 18:23:10|brentswain38|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|Ihave often thought of that, as well as one below the water for seeing what is comming in super clear water in daylight. Such cameras are becomming cheaper, and one should consider all options combined. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Originally this was about inaccurate charts in Fiji and people running up on reefs.... > > Lets assume this is daylight, so in ideal conditions one has chosen to stay completely away from reefs until daylight. > > Standing on deck, if the swell is not too high, would you be able to see the break of the waves on a 4-foot submerged reef from a full mile away ? I would tend to doubt there would be any reliability in it, unless one were studying the waves carefully. Similarly, I would think that finding the pass in the reef would be equally unreliable from such a distance, in low swell conditions. A hundred yards or less, it would seem the swell would have to be pretty flat to not notice the change in the waves from reef to no-reef areas. > > Has anyone considered a camera with a polarized lens in the mast head pointed down to take in the bow of the boat, and those underwater features directly in front of the boat ? Sort of like this view, but forward instead of aft: > > https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-t3uQ12OyO3g/Tf9fkQnt3NI/AAAAAAAANWU/wn1JkHa0lwk/GoPro%2525201005a.jpg > > It would seem to have a longer view than a person standing on the bow. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:30:22 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/07/2012 12:49 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > Don't expect your charts to be as accurate as your GPS. > > > > This is one of the things that scares me about people using electronic > > chart plotters. The electronic charts data comes from the same survey > > as the paper charts but on a paper chart there is the blurb near the > > title telling you if it has been satellite corrected or not and to what > > datum. On the Cmap program on my computer I can see where the chart > > data comes from but on many of the typical boat plotters you can't. I > > know of people who hit reefs in Fiji trusting their plotter just because > > it had been right in one area so assumed it was right in another. If > > they had been using a paper chart, it would have been easy to read if > > the correction for satellite had been applied as they moved on to the > > new chart. > > > > The east side of Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa were all way off on the > > charts....more than a mile in some places. I have heard that Tonga > > recently did a full survey of Vavau and that Fiji has now corrected > > their charts as well...with so many people using gps there is tremendous > > pressure to get charts satellite corrected so it keeps improving. > > > > Paul > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28556|28485|2012-07-11 18:41:36|Paul Wilson|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|Another quick thought....with the price coming down maybe a Glonass receiver would be good. Having another satellite system totally independant from gps is probably worth it. Garmin has a Etrex Glonass receiver now for about $100. Give it another year or two and there should be many more models. Paul On 12/07/2012 10:18 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > Not many bays in the tropics are as you describe so sometimes it is a > question of go anyway or stay home. It is not without risk but I think > it is worth it and when done right, relatively safe. In Fiji and most > other places I have sailed in the tropics, a mark on a reef may just be > a stick placed by a local. Buoys and cardinal marks are quite often > missing or moved by storms. Gps is pretty much all you have in poor > visibility unless you also have a radar, which I also love to use. > Depthsounders can help but a lot of the reef systems are all or nothing > when it comes to depth. > > As I said before, I never experience gps wander of more than about 10 > meters. I guess it can happen, but I have just never seen it. > > Paul > | 28557|28485|2012-07-11 21:17:42|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|I copied this thread to a buddy who works for a company that makes imaging cameras for firemen and the military, for his take on it. Their cameras create an image by combining visible light and far infrared into a single image. Some really slick stuff. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 6:23 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features Ihave often thought of that, as well as one below the water for seeing what is comming in super clear water in daylight. Such cameras are becomming cheaper, and one should consider all options combined. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Originally this was about inaccurate charts in Fiji and people running up on reefs.... > > Lets assume this is daylight, so in ideal conditions one has chosen to stay completely away from reefs until daylight. > > Standing on deck, if the swell is not too high, would you be able to see the break of the waves on a 4-foot submerged reef from a full mile away ? I would tend to doubt there would be any reliability in it, unless one were studying the waves carefully. Similarly, I would think that finding the pass in the reef would be equally unreliable from such a distance, in low swell conditions. A hundred yards or less, it would seem the swell would have to be pretty flat to not notice the change in the waves from reef to no-reef areas. > > Has anyone considered a camera with a polarized lens in the mast head pointed down to take in the bow of the boat, and those underwater features directly in front of the boat ? Sort of like this view, but forward instead of aft: > > https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-t3uQ12OyO3g/Tf9fkQnt3NI/AAAAAAAANWU/wn1JkHa0lwk/GoPro%2525201005a.jpg > > It would seem to have a longer view than a person standing on the bow. > > Matt > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:30:22 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/07/2012 12:49 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > Don't expect your charts to be as accurate as your GPS. > > > > This is one of the things that scares me about people using electronic > > chart plotters. The electronic charts data comes from the same survey > > as the paper charts but on a paper chart there is the blurb near the > > title telling you if it has been satellite corrected or not and to what > > datum. On the Cmap program on my computer I can see where the chart > > data comes from but on many of the typical boat plotters you can't. I > > know of people who hit reefs in Fiji trusting their plotter just because > > it had been right in one area so assumed it was right in another. If > > they had been using a paper chart, it would have been easy to read if > > the correction for satellite had been applied as they moved on to the > > new chart. > > > > The east side of Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa were all way off on the > > charts....more than a mile in some places. I have heard that Tonga > > recently did a full survey of Vavau and that Fiji has now corrected > > their charts as well...with so many people using gps there is tremendous > > pressure to get charts satellite corrected so it keeps improving. > > > > Paul > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28558|28532|2012-07-11 21:19:10|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|Around here, steel for shipbuilding is primed with International Interplate 937 (Inorganic Zinc Silicate). Most wheelabrating companies working with boatyards use it here. However, I got some angles and flat bars abrited and primed by different company (I was told they use 937 primer as well), but it does not look good compare what I saw at steel supplier. It shoved some stains through(on-top?) of it after several days of rain. I am not sure if it is bad abrating or lousy priming. I will probably clean suspicious areas by wire wheel and re-prime it with something easier to use/handle (one part primer). There is one company here (at shipyard) which have ability to sandblast and paint whole boat - you just bring it in (on trailer). Have no idea how much it cost. Could be cheaper than DIY, because they do it all the time, (including big ships) and have proper equipment and paint. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I have put wasser tar over the wheelabrading zinc primer, and over devoe green primer, with no problems. When you get the hull and decks pulled together it's a good idea to give the works another coat of zinc primer, so you dont end up having to sandblast. > > Avoid any vinyl based primers, like International Nu Plate F, as nothing will stick to it. > | 28559|28532|2012-07-11 21:57:31|haidan|Re: Zinc primer|I used the Wasser stuff. mio-zinc primer and coal tar urethane, it's only been 4-5 years and so far so good. The mio0zin especially came well recommended, if fact the manager at Cloverdale Paint told me to go to General Paint to get that product as it was far better than the zinc primer he had. Which I took as saying something when they tell to to go to the only other competitor in town. The mio-zinc was pretty expensive and the coal tar urethane was more expensive than coal tar epoxy, my only complaint was that I didn't buy enough thinner for it and I could just barely use up a 5 gallon can before it kicked off. The urethane being moisture cured will kick as soon as you open the can, so in future I don't really see how I would use it for touch ups unless I could buy it in 250ml cans, which I bet is prohibitively expensive, so far I've just used an epoxy zinc primer and coal tar epoxy for touch ups and they seem to stick to one another just fine. On top of the coal tar urethane I used an International urethane sealing coat (as per the paint reps recommendations) which was far cheaper than the Wasser top coat it also seems to stick just fine. I think it was interthane or interplus 880 or 980, something like that. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was searching for some Brent's recommendations (stored on my computer) about primers/coatings/painting.... I really like this website. It allows to search for products for your application (hull, water tank, etc) > > http://www.wassercoatings.com/SystemFinder.html > > http://www.wassercoatings.com/primers.html > > It has the information about compatibility and gives all information about suitable applications (from primers to top-coats). > > Unfortunately, I could not find yet wheelabrating company around here which use these products. > | 28560|28560|2012-07-11 23:35:22|m riley|Fw: Zinc primer (small aerosol can)|----- Forwarded Message ----- From: m riley To: No Reply Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 9:25 AM Subject: Re: Zinc primer (small aerosol can) >>With the temperature rising to 30 degrees here, and a boat to build, I'm wondering if you have found a white, epoxy compatible primer which could go over zinc, to keep things cool..<< I have had good luck with awlgrip 545 epoxy 2 part primer. I had a boat that I did a deck and cabin on that was to be used temporarily till topcoated, went 10 years and still acceptable. spendy but worth it.  I would not use a 1 part primer unless it would be all removed.  Most primers are just sanding fillers and would cause problems if left on the boat,water adsorption, and peeling due to solvent attack. any 2 part epoxy primer that can be used underwater will do fine. mike  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28561|28485|2012-07-11 23:35:36|Darren Bos|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|Since I went on about the potential inaccuracy of GPS, I should probably make clear that I do just as you do Paul. I almost always have the track log on. I save tracks for tricky spots and they are one of my backups when plan A fails. I think this kind of use of GPS makes total sense. What drives me nuts is that so many folks don't question the reliability of GPS at all, many probably don't even know what datum the GPS is set to and the illusion of accuracy bites them in the butt. The way Paul describes using GPS can definitely save boats, but I'd be willing to bet that there has been no net benefit to GPS saving recreational boats because so many folks have followed it blindly and it has led them right onto the rocks. Darren >If all this makes you say that you will never sail in such an area, you >are missing out. I used gps to the maximum and never once touched a reef >in 8+ years with many, many trips among the reefs. I eventually had the >confidence (and track plots) to sail at night and seek the safety of a >good cyclone hole no matter what the weather. It was never a choice but >if I had an emergency, I could do it. > >Cheers, Paul > | 28562|28532|2012-07-11 23:38:30|Aaron|Re: Zinc primer|Haidan   After you open the can poor out some to use then place a plastic wrap down on top of the paint inside the can before you close the lid that will displace the moisture in the air inside the can and may keep longer Aaron ________________________________ From: haidan To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer   I used the Wasser stuff. mio-zinc primer and coal tar urethane, it's only been 4-5 years and so far so good. The mio0zin especially came well recommended, if fact the manager at Cloverdale Paint told me to go to General Paint to get that product as it was far better than the zinc primer he had. Which I took as saying something when they tell to to go to the only other competitor in town. The mio-zinc was pretty expensive and the coal tar urethane was more expensive than coal tar epoxy, my only complaint was that I didn't buy enough thinner for it and I could just barely use up a 5 gallon can before it kicked off. The urethane being moisture cured will kick as soon as you open the can, so in future I don't really see how I would use it for touch ups unless I could buy it in 250ml cans, which I bet is prohibitively expensive, so far I've just used an epoxy zinc primer and coal tar epoxy for touch ups and they seem to stick to one another just fine. On top of the coal tar urethane I used an International urethane sealing coat (as per the paint reps recommendations) which was far cheaper than the Wasser top coat it also seems to stick just fine. I think it was interthane or interplus 880 or 980, something like that. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was searching for some Brent's recommendations (stored on my computer) about primers/coatings/painting.... I really like this website. It allows to search for products for your application (hull, water tank, etc) > > http://www.wassercoatings.com/SystemFinder.html > > http://www.wassercoatings.com/primers.html > > It has the information about compatibility and gives all information about suitable applications (from primers to top-coats). > > Unfortunately, I could not find yet wheelabrating company around here which use these products. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28563|28532|2012-07-12 02:03:31|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|According to data sheet for MC-Tar, it is shipped in 1Gal or 5Gal cans. You might be able to re-pack it in tube-like vessel (with small volume) and put MC-Thinner on top to displace air. Or use something like tooth-paste-tube/syringe and squeeze it out. May be small plastic water bottles? Wasser recommendation is "Use a solvent float to reseal partial containers". I have no idea what they talking about... May be somebody can explain... Most 2 parts zinc primers comes in 5Gal (total) and it is need to mix components - not for DIY... And it should not be repacked/resealed after mixing anyway. MC-Zinc 100 and MC-MioZinc 100 is a single component primer and comes in 1Gal or 3Gal. 1Gal might work for touch-ups (after repacking/resealing). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > I used the Wasser stuff. mio-zinc primer and coal tar urethane, it's only been 4-5 years and so far so good. > > Skip > my only complaint was that I didn't buy enough thinner for it and I could just barely use up a 5 gallon can before it kicked off. The urethane being moisture cured will kick as soon as you open the can, so in future I don't really see how I would use it for touch ups unless I could buy it in 250ml cans, which I bet is prohibitively expensive, > > | 28564|28532|2012-07-12 07:52:24|Carl Volkwein|Re: Zinc primer|I wonder if you could place a piece of plsatic- seran wrap over the unused portion to make it last longer? ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 2:03 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer   According to data sheet for MC-Tar, it is shipped in 1Gal or 5Gal cans. You might be able to re-pack it in tube-like vessel (with small volume) and put MC-Thinner on top to displace air. Or use something like tooth-paste-tube/syringe and squeeze it out. May be small plastic water bottles? Wasser recommendation is "Use a solvent float to reseal partial containers". I have no idea what they talking about... May be somebody can explain... Most 2 parts zinc primers comes in 5Gal (total) and it is need to mix components - not for DIY... And it should not be repacked/resealed after mixing anyway. MC-Zinc 100 and MC-MioZinc 100 is a single component primer and comes in 1Gal or 3Gal. 1Gal might work for touch-ups (after repacking/resealing). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > I used the Wasser stuff. mio-zinc primer and coal tar urethane, it's only been 4-5 years and so far so good. > > Skip > my only complaint was that I didn't buy enough thinner for it and I could just barely use up a 5 gallon can before it kicked off. The urethane being moisture cured will kick as soon as you open the can, so in future I don't really see how I would use it for touch ups unless I could buy it in 250ml cans, which I bet is prohibitively expensive, > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28565|28532|2012-07-12 09:42:35|Aaron|Re: Zinc primer|Devoe 302 zink primer is 1 or 5 gal 2 part $70 a gallon last year Alaska price and the same with Devoe 235 polyurathane Aaron ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 10:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer   According to data sheet for MC-Tar, it is shipped in 1Gal or 5Gal cans. You might be able to re-pack it in tube-like vessel (with small volume) and put MC-Thinner on top to displace air. Or use something like tooth-paste-tube/syringe and squeeze it out. May be small plastic water bottles? Wasser recommendation is "Use a solvent float to reseal partial containers". I have no idea what they talking about... May be somebody can explain... Most 2 parts zinc primers comes in 5Gal (total) and it is need to mix components - not for DIY... And it should not be repacked/resealed after mixing anyway. MC-Zinc 100 and MC-MioZinc 100 is a single component primer and comes in 1Gal or 3Gal. 1Gal might work for touch-ups (after repacking/resealing). --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > I used the Wasser stuff. mio-zinc primer and coal tar urethane, it's only been 4-5 years and so far so good. > > Skip > my only complaint was that I didn't buy enough thinner for it and I could just barely use up a 5 gallon can before it kicked off. The urethane being moisture cured will kick as soon as you open the can, so in future I don't really see how I would use it for touch ups unless I could buy it in 250ml cans, which I bet is prohibitively expensive, > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28566|28532|2012-07-12 10:04:49|haidan|Re: Zinc primer|yeah that might of worked better to preserve it's consistency when I was painting the hull, it was pretty thick to begin with, slightly more viscous than molasses, hard work rolling it on. By "For touch-ups" I mean years later I doubt I'd be able to open a can of this moisture cured stuff, re-seal it then use it again a year later, though with the coal tar epoxy you can get away with this and just mix up small batches. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Haidan >   > After you open the can poor out some to use then place a plastic wrap down on top of the paint inside the can before you close the lid that will displace the moisture in the air inside the can and may keep longer > | 28567|26545|2012-07-12 10:10:18|Maxime Camirand|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Hi group, Luck has solved the problem of what welder to buy. A friend of mine is giving me an old welder from his work. They replaced it and were going to send it to scrap. He says it's an industrial machine, with about 80 feet of cable. AC or DC. He says the only problem with it is that the selector dial is broken off, so that needs to be fixed. Otherwise it welds well. I have yet to see it, but I'm enthusiastic. On 21 May 2012 08:26, Robert Jones wrote: > ** > > > > That's a really good idea. Those, for the most part are 50 amp cords and > the good ones take a lot of abuse and flex well for their size! > --- On Sun, 5/20/12, coreyzzzz2000 wrote: > > From: coreyzzzz2000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding > Equipment) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, May 20, 2012, 9:21 AM > > > > > I learned this trick from a friend; if you buy the cable off the roll at > the local hardware store it will be much more expensive. Instead, I bought > a 220V RV extension cord. It is 10-3 and about 40 feet. I've been using > this for 4 years now with no issues- using a Lincoln 220v MIG and getting > very good quality welds. > > The cord is better quality than what they sell in bulk, plus it was about > 30% cheaper. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28568|28532|2012-07-12 10:17:28|haidan|Re: Zinc primer|I don't think that would be very successful, I think the moisture gets in there no matter what you do and it's pretty expensive paint to try that out with, especially when coal tar epoxy seems to work just fine, you buy one gallon of it, it comes with a 250ml cure agent and so far it's kept for 4 years just fine in the bilge. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > According to data sheet for MC-Tar, it is shipped in 1Gal or 5Gal cans. You might be able to re-pack it in tube-like vessel (with small volume) and put MC-Thinner on top to displace air. Or use something like tooth-paste-tube/syringe and squeeze it out. May be small plastic water bottles? > > Wasser recommendation is "Use a solvent float to reseal partial containers". I have no idea what they talking about... May be somebody can explain... > > Most 2 parts zinc primers comes in 5Gal (total) and it is need to mix components - not for DIY... And it should not be repacked/resealed after mixing anyway. > > MC-Zinc 100 and MC-MioZinc 100 is a single component primer and comes in 1Gal or 3Gal. 1Gal might work for touch-ups (after repacking/resealing). > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > > > I used the Wasser stuff. mio-zinc primer and coal tar urethane, it's only been 4-5 years and so far so good. > > > > Skip > > > my only complaint was that I didn't buy enough thinner for it and I could just barely use up a 5 gallon can before it kicked off. The urethane being moisture cured will kick as soon as you open the can, so in future I don't really see how I would use it for touch ups unless I could buy it in 250ml cans, which I bet is prohibitively expensive, > > > > > | 28569|28532|2012-07-12 10:53:06|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|Hm-m-m-m... It looks like MC-Tar is different that Coal Tar Epoxy. I was assuming it is the same. I could not find Coal Tar Epoxy on Wasser web-site. Is it discontinued??? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > I don't think that would be very successful, I think the moisture gets in there no matter what you do and it's pretty expensive paint to try that out with, especially when coal tar epoxy seems to work just fine, you buy one gallon of it, it comes with a 250ml cure agent and so far it's kept for 4 years just fine in the bilge. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > According to data sheet for MC-Tar, it is shipped in 1Gal or 5Gal cans. | 28570|28485|2012-07-12 12:04:54|jason ball|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|thanks paul! good post. --- On Wed, 11/7/12, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Seeing reefs and other underwater features To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 11 July, 2012, 22:18 Getting high in the rigging definitely improves visibility ......I keep polarized sunglasses handy and have mast steps so I can quickly climb up and have a look. It is good but you can't assume this will always work. Most of the time the visibility is less than ideal and the problem is not so much a large reef system, it is the lone coral head or rock sticking up in the middle of nowhere. I have entered reef systems with good visibility only to have a squall come and turn everything black. There is also sometimes water run off from rivers or rainfall which may make seeing the reefs impossible. Keep in mind that some of the reef systems may take an hour or two of travel to get into the anchorage. Go to Google Earth and look at the north side of Viti Levu or north side of Vanua Levu in Fiji to see what I mean. Everybody says they won't navigate around reefs unless they have good visibility but in a large reef system, you will eventually get caught out. Using gps and saving waypoints and tracks when in good visibility will get your ass out of a jam when you are in the sh%&. If all this makes you say that you will never sail in such an area, you are missing out. I used gps to the maximum and never once touched a reef in 8+ years with many, many trips among the reefs. I eventually had the confidence (and track plots) to sail at night and seek the safety of a good cyclone hole no matter what the weather. It was never a choice but if I had an emergency, I could do it. Those relying on traditional methods were either too scared to sail anywhere or hit the reefs continually. I know of one experienced cruiser who spent more time in the boat yard after bouncing off reefs than sailing. He had plenty of time to fix his boat but no time to learn how to use a gps. Makes no sense to me. I know of another cruiser who had sailed into a bay and anchored but a sudden storm came that forced them to leave at night. They hadn't saved a track plot when they went in so had nothing to follow out and ended up wrecking their boat. This was totally avoidable but typical of the cruisers who said they didn't trust gps. Cheers, Paul On 12/07/2012 7:57 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Originally this was about inaccurate charts in Fiji and people running > up on reefs.... > > Lets assume this is daylight, so in ideal conditions one has chosen to > stay completely away from reefs until daylight. > > Standing on deck, if the swell is not too high, would you be able to > see the break of the waves on a 4-foot submerged reef from a full mile > away ? I would tend to doubt there would be any reliability in it, > unless one were studying the waves carefully. Similarly, I would think > that finding the pass in the reef would be equally unreliable from > such a distance, in low swell conditions. A hundred yards or less, it > would seem the swell would have to be pretty flat to not notice the > change in the waves from reef to no-reef areas. > > Has anyone considered a camera with a polarized lens in the mast head > pointed down to take in the bow of the boat, and those underwater > features directly in front of the boat ? Sort of like this view, but > forward instead of aft: > > https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-t3uQ12OyO3g/Tf9fkQnt3NI/AAAAAAAANWU/wn1JkHa0lwk/GoPro%2525201005a.jpg > > It would seem to have a longer view than a person standing on the bow. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:30:22 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > On 11/07/2012 12:49 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > Don't expect your charts to be as accurate as your GPS. > > This is one of the things that scares me about people using electronic > > chart plotters. The electronic charts data comes from the same survey > > as the paper charts but on a paper chart there is the blurb near the > > title telling you if it has been satellite corrected or not and to what > > datum. On the Cmap program on my computer I can see where the chart > > data comes from but on many of the typical boat plotters you can't. I > > know of people who hit reefs in Fiji trusting their plotter just because > > it had been right in one area so assumed it was right in another. If > > they had been using a paper chart, it would have been easy to read if > > the correction for satellite had been applied as they moved on to the > > new chart. > > The east side of Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa were all way off on the > > charts....more than a mile in some places. I have heard that Tonga > > recently did a full survey of Vavau and that Fiji has now corrected > > their charts as well...with so many people using gps there is tremendous > > pressure to get charts satellite corrected so it keeps improving. > > Paul > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28571|28485|2012-07-12 15:11:46|Matt Malone|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|Paul Wilson Said: "Keep in mind that some of the reef systems may take an hour or two of travel to get into the anchorage. Go to Google Earth and look at the north side of Viti Levu or north side of Vanua Levu in Fiji to see what I mean. Everybody says they won't navigate around reefs unless they have good visibility but in a large reef system, you will eventually get caught out. Using gps and saving waypoints and tracks when in good visibility will get your ass out of a jam when you are in the sh%&." I have looked at the north side of Viti Levu on Google. West of Vatukoula, west of that is marked as "Tavua Bay" there is a large, open, deeper area, egg-shaped and 10 km across. It has what appears to be a 2 km wide N/S channel west of Yanuca Island for easy entry / exit. Swinging around the south side of Yanuca Island, it appears one can head northeast and, using visual references, it seems one can travel the 1km wide channel between Yanuca Island and the main island east toward Tavua Bay. Looks beautiful. That river delta west of Natunuka looks like mosquitos to me. 1km, 2km wide channels sound very friendly if one must back-track a GPS track. I have yet to do my first 2,000 sextant sights, so, I would not chance my accuracy with anything but GPS backed up by charts and visual landmarks. Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28572|28572|2012-07-12 20:22:01|gcox5415|"Kims' Boat" posted on Smugmug|Hello. Does anyone know/have contact info. for the gentleman building the Swain 26 with photos posted on smugmug under the header Kim's boat?? I'm quite impressed with how "clean" he works, and the quality of the photos,- they've help clarify many important building details. Also, does anyone know if he has any more photos posted ,perhaps on another site? ( the photo essay stops at the modifications around the twin keels) Thanks to all you origami-ists. Greg| 28573|28485|2012-07-12 20:32:18|Aaron|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|Gary Thank you very much for sharing the blog. Aaron ________________________________ From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features   I copied this thread to a buddy who works for a company that makes imaging cameras for firemen and the military, for his take on it. Their cameras create an image by combining visible light and far infrared into a single image. Some really slick stuff. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 6:23 PM To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features Ihave often thought of that, as well as one below the water for seeing what is comming in super clear water in daylight. Such cameras are becomming cheaper, and one should consider all options combined. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Originally this was about inaccurate charts in Fiji and people running up on reefs.... > > Lets assume this is daylight, so in ideal conditions one has chosen to stay completely away from reefs until daylight. > > Standing on deck, if the swell is not too high, would you be able to see the break of the waves on a 4-foot submerged reef from a full mile away ? I would tend to doubt there would be any reliability in it, unless one were studying the waves carefully. Similarly, I would think that finding the pass in the reef would be equally unreliable from such a distance, in low swell conditions. A hundred yards or less, it would seem the swell would have to be pretty flat to not notice the change in the waves from reef to no-reef areas. > > Has anyone considered a camera with a polarized lens in the mast head pointed down to take in the bow of the boat, and those underwater features directly in front of the boat ? Sort of like this view, but forward instead of aft: > > https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-t3uQ12OyO3g/Tf9fkQnt3NI/AAAAAAAANWU/wn1JkHa0lwk/GoPro%2525201005a.jpg > > It would seem to have a longer view than a person standing on the bow. > > Matt > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:30:22 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Radio Direction Finder (was Loran C) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/07/2012 12:49 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > Don't expect your charts to be as accurate as your GPS. > > > > This is one of the things that scares me about people using electronic > > chart plotters. The electronic charts data comes from the same survey > > as the paper charts but on a paper chart there is the blurb near the > > title telling you if it has been satellite corrected or not and to what > > datum. On the Cmap program on my computer I can see where the chart > > data comes from but on many of the typical boat plotters you can't. I > > know of people who hit reefs in Fiji trusting their plotter just because > > it had been right in one area so assumed it was right in another. If > > they had been using a paper chart, it would have been easy to read if > > the correction for satellite had been applied as they moved on to the > > new chart. > > > > The east side of Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa were all way off on the > > charts....more than a mile in some places. I have heard that Tonga > > recently did a full survey of Vavau and that Fiji has now corrected > > their charts as well...with so many people using gps there is tremendous > > pressure to get charts satellite corrected so it keeps improving. > > > > Paul > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28574|28532|2012-07-12 20:37:02|brentswain38|Re: Zinc primer|Wasser tar seems to work just as well as epoxy tar, for your initial painting. Most paint companies made epoxy tar.International was a 1 to 1 mix, Pittsburg, General Paint and Colverdale was 4 to1 mix. The 1 to 1 is easier to measure, but the 4 to 1 has a much longer shelf life. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Hm-m-m-m... It looks like MC-Tar is different that Coal Tar Epoxy. I was assuming it is the same. I could not find Coal Tar Epoxy on Wasser web-site. Is it discontinued??? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > > > I don't think that would be very successful, I think the moisture gets in there no matter what you do and it's pretty expensive paint to try that out with, especially when coal tar epoxy seems to work just fine, you buy one gallon of it, it comes with a 250ml cure agent and so far it's kept for 4 years just fine in the bilge. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > According to data sheet for MC-Tar, it is shipped in 1Gal or 5Gal cans. > | 28575|28485|2012-07-12 20:46:25|Paul Wilson|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|I have sailed up through those channels many times. The north side of Viti Levu is really nice in the NE end near Nananu I Ra but the wind can really whistle up through Bligh Channel between the big islands sometimes. The north part of Viti Levu is mainly sugar cane fields and fairly muddy unless you go out to the outer reef. I really like the north and east side of Vanua Levu better. You can go almost all the way along the inside of the reef there until you are well east of Labasa. When I last cruised there six years ago, many of the anchorages hadn't had a boat for several years. I created quite a stir by taking my boat up the river to the bridge in Labasa. I was scouting out the river as a cyclone hole. I don't think a yacht had ever been up there before. It's all good fun. The locals are usually really happy to see you....the only down side is the constant stream of local visitors wanting to talk and see your boat. It can sometimes get a little overwhelming. Paul On 13/07/2012 7:11 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Paul Wilson Said: > "Keep in mind that some of the reef systems may take an hour or > two of travel to get into the anchorage. Go to Google Earth and look > at the north side of Viti Levu or north side of Vanua Levu in Fiji to see > what I mean. Everybody says they won't navigate around reefs > unless they have good visibility but in a large reef system, you will > eventually get caught out. Using gps and saving waypoints and tracks > when in good visibility will get your ass out of a jam when you are in > the sh%&." > > I have looked at the north side of Viti Levu on Google. West of > Vatukoula, west of that is marked as "Tavua Bay" there is a large, > open, deeper area, egg-shaped and 10 km across. It has what appears to be > a 2 km wide N/S channel west of Yanuca Island for easy entry / exit. > Swinging around the south side of Yanuca Island, it appears one can head > northeast and, using visual references, it seems one can travel the > 1km wide > channel between Yanuca Island and the main island east toward > Tavua Bay. Looks beautiful. > > That river delta west of Natunuka looks like mosquitos to me. > > 1km, 2km wide channels sound very friendly if one must back-track a > GPS track. I have yet to do my first 2,000 sextant sights, so, I would > not > chance my accuracy with anything but GPS backed up by charts and > visual landmarks. > > Matt > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 28576|28572|2012-07-12 23:01:53|Matt Malone|Re: "Kims' Boat" posted on Smugmug|Yes, just ask to talk to Kim here on this list. Here is the link to his blog, in case you are not seeing it all. http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gcox5415@... Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 08:09:19 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] "Kims' Boat" posted on Smugmug Hello. Does anyone know/have contact info. for the gentleman building the Swain 26 with photos posted on smugmug under the header Kim's boat?? I'm quite impressed with how "clean" he works, and the quality of the photos,- they've help clarify many important building details. Also, does anyone know if he has any more photos posted ,perhaps on another site? ( the photo essay stops at the modifications around the twin keels) Thanks to all you origami-ists. Greg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28577|28572|2012-07-13 01:12:53|Kim|Re: "Kims' Boat" posted on Smugmug|Hi Greg ... Thanks for your kind words about my Swain 26 construction photos! All the photos I've taken are on that site (http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht). There aren't any anywhere else. There last batch of photo's I posted there were the ones detailing the web reinforcing for the twin keels, so I think you're seeing them all. I've got another batch to put up soon, probably next week sometime. I only have about 1 day/week (sometimes less) to work on the boat, so progress can be pretty slow for me. Consequently there's sometimes long gaps between my photo postings! However, I intend to continue with the photo record of its construction right up to launching day (and beyond!). Despite the long time I'm taking to build it, it's an extremely easy boat to put together. Feel free to send me an email, or ask in this group, if you have any particular questions about it. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcox5415" wrote: > > Hello. Does anyone know/have contact info. for the gentleman building the Swain 26 with photos posted on smugmug under the header Kim's boat?? I'm quite impressed with how "clean" he works, and the quality of the photos,- they've help clarify many important building details. Also, does anyone know if he has any more photos posted ,perhaps on another site? ( the photo essay stops at the modifications around the twin keels) Thanks to all you origami-ists. Greg | 28578|27628|2012-07-13 15:26:26|John Waalkes|Re: Skeg coolant|Plumbing supply houses should have test strips and additives to keep heat transfer fluid in correct acid range. Normally used in cold climes for snow melting systems. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28579|27628|2012-07-13 15:27:30|brentswain38|Re: Skeg coolant|Drug stores also sell litmus paper. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, John Waalkes wrote: > > Plumbing supply houses should have test strips and additives to keep heat transfer fluid in correct acid range. Normally used in cold climes for snow melting systems. John > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28580|28532|2012-07-13 16:30:06|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|I emailed to Wasser representative. Here some info: Q.1. What Wasser zinc primer is compatible/suitable for touch-up and re-priming over Interplate 937 primer? What is the smallest available can? One part primer is preferable for easier preparation/use. A.1. Wasser's MC-MIOzinc 100 available in 1 and 3 gallon pails ( make sure surface is free of contaminates and has light sanding to produce scarification of existing primer prior to application of MC-MIOzinc 100 Q.2. What happen with Coal Tar Epoxy? Many people recommend it, but I do not see it on Wasser web-site. Is it discontinued? A.2. Wasser does has never had an epoxy coal tar Wasser supplies a coal tar rich moisture cured urethane MC-Tar 100 Q.3. What Wasser products will you recommend for the boat (hull, super structure, diesel fuel tank, waste tank, potable water tank)? A.3. For waste tank I would suggest the following system Primer MC-MIOzinc 100 @ 3 to 5 mils DFT Intermediate coat MC-Tar 100 ( Red Oxide) @ 5 to 7 mils DFT Top coat MC-Tar 100 ( Black) Wasser does not supply products for interior fuel tanks or small tank for potable water P.S. My note: There are several choices for below/above WL application - I did not post it here. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Wasser tar seems to work just as well as epoxy tar, for your initial painting. Most paint companies made epoxy tar.International was a 1 to 1 mix, Pittsburg, General Paint and Colverdale was 4 to1 mix. The 1 to 1 is easier to measure, but the 4 to 1 has a much longer shelf life. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Hm-m-m-m... It looks like MC-Tar is different that Coal Tar Epoxy. I was assuming it is the same. I could not find Coal Tar Epoxy on Wasser web-site. Is it discontinued??? > > | 28581|28532|2012-07-13 20:25:48|haidan|Re: Zinc primer|Yes MC-tar made by Wasser is a polyurethane one part moisture cured paint made in Kent Washington. Coal Tar Epoxy is usually a two part or three part Epoxy made by various different manufactures. Wasser doesn't make an epoxy as far as I know. And before you ask no, I don't think the manufacturer would recommend using any other manufacturer's product other than their own over top of one another.| 28582|28485|2012-07-13 22:11:55|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|Aaron, I started writing the blog for my own enjoyment. I didn’t let anyone read it for quite a while. A friend convinced me to make it public and add it to my signature. At my job they think I’m negative, too honest and blunt about things, and lots of people think I need to use a kinder and gentler approach. However I watch people using a kinder and gentler approach accomplish nothing and give up in frustration. The articles I’ve written I believe are very positive about what can be accomplished by honesty and openness. I’d really like to hear your opinion too. Gary H. Lucas From: Aaron Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 8:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features Gary Thank you very much for sharing the blog. Aaron ________________________________ From: Gary H. Lucas To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28583|28532|2012-07-13 23:39:31|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|Washington state has banned coal tar usage and sales state wide, but may be tar-based products are different ;) I would avoid to use/mix coating from different manufactures as well, but sometimes you have no choice. Like in my case, only I-937 primer was available. If somebody interested, there is report on coating performance of some manufacturers: Sherwin-Williams, Tnemec, Wasser, and Xymax. http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA418758 Could be useful. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Yes MC-tar made by Wasser is a polyurethane one part moisture cured paint made in Kent Washington. > Coal Tar Epoxy is usually a two part or three part Epoxy made by various different manufactures. > Wasser doesn't make an epoxy as far as I know. And before you ask no, I don't think the manufacturer would recommend using any other manufacturer's product other than their own over top of one another. > | 28584|28532|2012-07-14 08:56:09|m riley|Re: Zinc primer|1 part moisture cured urethanes are a pain to deal with in small amounts. I have used them since the 70's here is the way to do it. get new small cans or clean baby food jars. decant  into the jars at first opening of the can put lid into zip loc bag before installing as it keeps it from sticking. float a small amount of the proper solvent on top without stirring keep airspace to a minimum. as you use the paint add marbles to take up the room of the removed paint I get the glass rocks from dollar stores you can use rounded beach pebbles that are washed and DRIED in a oven to remove the moisture if you have airspace float the solvent and in a quiet spot flood the can with propane to displace moisture. works for up to a year for me. eventually the solids in the paint will form a ball in the middle of the jar surrounded by clear solvent,the end! mike . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28585|28485|2012-07-14 17:54:22|brentswain38|Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features|A kinder gentler speech makes you part of the background murmur, and no one notices what you have to say. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Aaron, > I started writing the blog for my own enjoyment. I didn’t let anyone read it for quite a while. A friend convinced me to make it public and add it to my signature. At my job they think I’m negative, too honest and blunt about things, and lots of people think I need to use a kinder and gentler approach. However I watch people using a kinder and gentler approach accomplish nothing and give up in frustration. The articles I’ve written I believe are very positive about what can be accomplished by honesty and openness. I’d really like to hear your opinion too. > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: Aaron > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 8:32 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features > > > Gary > Thank you very much for sharing the blog. > > Aaron > > > ________________________________ > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:18 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Seeing reefs and other underwater features > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28586|28586|2012-07-15 14:25:43|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|Nature's head toilet|someone is offering (distributer) Nature's head composting toilet on kijiji in Quebec, it is first time I see composting toilet offered in Canada they go for $1000.00 Martin.| 28587|28586|2012-07-15 15:32:08|James Pronk|Re: Nature's head toilet|Hello Martin I just built a new composting toilet. I should post photos. Pee goes into a apple juice jar and the solids go into a 2.5 gallon pail with peat moss. James --- On Sun, 7/15/12, mdemers2005@... wrote: From: mdemers2005@... Subject: [origamiboats] Nature's head toilet To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, July 15, 2012, 2:25 PM   someone is offering (distributer) Nature's head composting toilet on kijiji in Quebec, it is first time I see composting toilet offered in Canada they go for $1000.00 Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28588|28586|2012-07-16 08:40:37|jcluddite|Re: Nature's head toilet|channel cutter yachts, builders of the lyle hess 34' channel cutter is the distributor. http://www.channelcutteryachts.com/Nature%27s%20Head.htm --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > someone is offering (distributer) Nature's head composting toilet on kijiji in Quebec, it is first time I see composting toilet offered in Canada > they go for $1000.00 > > Martin. > | 28589|28586|2012-07-16 19:51:46|Robert McFetridge|Re: Nature's head toilet|I just joined this group but would be very interested in any information that you would like to share. Bob On 2012-07-15, at 3:32 PM, James Pronk wrote: > Hello Martin > I just built a new composting toilet. I should post photos. Pee goes into a apple juice jar and the solids go into a 2.5 gallon pail with peat moss. > James > > --- On Sun, 7/15/12, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > From: mdemers2005@... > Subject: [origamiboats] Nature's head toilet > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Sunday, July 15, 2012, 2:25 PM > > > > > > > > someone is offering (distributer) Nature's head composting toilet on kijiji in Quebec, it is first time I see composting toilet offered in Canada > they go for $1000.00 > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 28590|28586|2012-07-16 19:56:05|brentswain38|Re: Nature's head toilet|There is anew one caled C-head on the market at around$400. the one in my book costs under $50 to build . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert McFetridge wrote: > > I just joined this group but would be very interested in any information that you would like to share. > Bob > > On 2012-07-15, at 3:32 PM, James Pronk wrote: > > > Hello Martin > > I just built a new composting toilet. I should post photos. Pee goes into a apple juice jar and the solids go into a 2.5 gallon pail with peat moss. > > James > > > > --- On Sun, 7/15/12, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > Subject: [origamiboats] Nature's head toilet > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Sunday, July 15, 2012, 2:25 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone is offering (distributer) Nature's head composting toilet on kijiji in Quebec, it is first time I see composting toilet offered in Canada > > they go for $1000.00 > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 28591|28591|2012-07-17 19:41:57|John G|Sailor Searching for Liveaboard|Ahoy...I am in the process of selling everything and buying a sailboat to live aboard...Looking for a SWF under 40 who is interested in living aboard a sailboat as a way of life...Please contact me if you are interested... Thanks, John Find me on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/john.grossman.5| 28592|28591|2012-07-17 19:46:36|brentswain38|Re: Sailor Searching for Liveaboard|Good luck! Women who are genuinely interested in the liveaboard lifestyle are as rare as hens teeth. There are plenty of pretenders, who will play along for a while, then convert you into a deeply indebted ,treadmill walking real estate consumer ( which usually turns out to have been their plan all along) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John G" wrote: > > Ahoy...I am in the process of selling everything and buying a sailboat to live aboard...Looking for a SWF under 40 who is interested in living aboard a sailboat as a way of life...Please contact me if you are interested... > > Thanks, > > John > > Find me on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/john.grossman.5 > | 28593|28593|2012-07-17 21:25:28|wild_explorer|DIY gantry/gin_pole crane under $100|How about building the mast for the boat first? And use it as a crane? I was thinking how to simplify lifting before the boat is up. When she is up, Brent has pretty good procedures how to lift items using the hull as an anchor point. I was trying to figure out how to unload some big or heavy items by myself. It turned out (reading field rigging manuals) that you can easily make A-frame Gantry or Gin-pole crane from timber/lumber with lifting capacity up to 4,000 Lb. For the safe working angle from 45 to 85 deg from horizontal (-5 to -45 deg from vertical): 12 ft pole allows you to move object about 6ft (horizontally) and lift it about 8 ft (vertically). 16 ft pole - move 8.5 ft, lift it l1 ft . 4000Lb load capacity is for A-frame Gantry made from 6x6"-16ft lumber. With a little welding (to make a base for the poles) and some temporary/removable modifications you may turn your full size pickup-truck into a crane ;). Modifications - different hitch, welding a foot base for 6x6, making drive-in ramp/frame for rear wheels. Other misc items: rope or wire rope, hoist or anchor winch, rigging rollers, etc. Actually, it could be built from the parts you need later for the boat.| 28594|28591|2012-07-17 21:45:50|Mark Hamill|Re: Sailor Searching for Liveaboard|Unfortunately Brent is right--in my experience--there's a couple of places for sailing singles--google to find. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28595|28485|2012-07-17 22:10:29|jhess314|A Little Business|Gary, I read your blog a number of months ago. Enjoyed it then, and just re-read it with pleasure. It's high time you added some more stories... John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I copied this thread to a buddy who works for a company that makes imaging cameras for firemen and the military, for his take on it. Their cameras create an image by combining visible light and far infrared into a single image. Some really slick stuff. > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ | 28596|28485|2012-07-17 22:19:06|Gary H. Lucas|Re: A Little Business|John, Thanks, I was thinking the same thing. I’ve got some other things to write about, and when I write it just kind of flows out in one long gush. However finding the motivation when the thoughts are in my head is tough! I follow another guy’s blog on lean management, and I see he has fallen off as well. Thanks for the encouragement, we’ll see where it leads. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: jhess314 Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 10:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] A Little Business Gary, I read your blog a number of months ago. Enjoyed it then, and just re-read it with pleasure. It's high time you added some more stories... John --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I copied this thread to a buddy who works for a company that makes imaging cameras for firemen and the military, for his take on it. Their cameras create an image by combining visible light and far infrared into a single image. Some really slick stuff. > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28597|28593|2012-07-19 15:01:13|Matt Malone|Re: DIY gantry/gin_pole crane under $100|I am really not getting a mental picture of how you are going to put this together. http://www.lni.wa.gov/wisha/rules/generalsafety/images/24_d2_a-frame.gif Is this what you are thinking about ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 01:25:25 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] DIY gantry/gin_pole crane under $100 How about building the mast for the boat first? And use it as a crane? I was thinking how to simplify lifting before the boat is up. When she is up, Brent has pretty good procedures how to lift items using the hull as an anchor point. I was trying to figure out how to unload some big or heavy items by myself. It turned out (reading field rigging manuals) that you can easily make A-frame Gantry or Gin-pole crane from timber/lumber with lifting capacity up to 4,000 Lb. For the safe working angle from 45 to 85 deg from horizontal (-5 to -45 deg from vertical): 12 ft pole allows you to move object about 6ft (horizontally) and lift it about 8 ft (vertically). 16 ft pole - move 8.5 ft, lift it l1 ft . 4000Lb load capacity is for A-frame Gantry made from 6x6"-16ft lumber. With a little welding (to make a base for the poles) and some temporary/removable modifications you may turn your full size pickup-truck into a crane ;). Modifications - different hitch, welding a foot base for 6x6, making drive-in ramp/frame for rear wheels. Other misc items: rope or wire rope, hoist or anchor winch, rigging rollers, etc. Actually, it could be built from the parts you need later for the boat. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28598|28586|2012-07-19 18:36:58|martin demers|Re: Nature's head toilet|James, Yes, pictures would be a good idea to see your creation Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 12:32:05 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Nature's head toilet Hello Martin I just built a new composting toilet. I should post photos. Pee goes into a apple juice jar and the solids go into a 2.5 gallon pail with peat moss. James --- On Sun, 7/15/12, mdemers2005@... wrote: From: mdemers2005@... Subject: [origamiboats] Nature's head toilet To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, July 15, 2012, 2:25 PM someone is offering (distributer) Nature's head composting toilet on kijiji in Quebec, it is first time I see composting toilet offered in Canada they go for $1000.00 Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28599|28593|2012-07-19 21:57:46|brentswain38|Re: DIY gantry/gin_pole crane under $100|Fo runloading hull and deck plates, I just tie it to a tree and drive the truck out from under it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > How about building the mast for the boat first? And use it as a crane? > > I was thinking how to simplify lifting before the boat is up. When she is up, Brent has pretty good procedures how to lift items using the hull as an anchor point. > > I was trying to figure out how to unload some big or heavy items by myself. It turned out (reading field rigging manuals) that you can easily make A-frame Gantry or Gin-pole crane from timber/lumber with lifting capacity up to 4,000 Lb. > > For the safe working angle from 45 to 85 deg from horizontal (-5 to -45 deg from vertical): > > 12 ft pole alrom under ity.lows you to move object about 6ft (horizontally) and lift it about 8 ft (vertically). > > 16 ft pole - move 8.5 ft, lift it l1 ft . > > 4000Lb load capacity is for A-frame Gantry made from 6x6"-16ft lumber. > > With a little welding (to make a base for the poles) and some temporary/removable modifications you may turn your full size pickup-truck into a crane ;). Modifications - different hitch, welding a foot base for 6x6, making drive-in ramp/frame for rear wheels. > > Other misc items: rope or wire rope, hoist or anchor winch, rigging rollers, etc. Actually, it could be built from the parts you need later for the boat. > | 28600|28600|2012-07-19 22:03:44|brentswain38|Saving thinner|With the high cost of some thiners, I just use a canning jar with a plastic lid for washingout paintbrushes. I put a bit of diesel in the thinner so it a can't evaporate completely. When I am done, I just screw the airtight lid on the jar, so it wont evaporate. I just used sone thinner I sealed last summer. If you dont add the diesel, you can use the same thinner for thinning paint. The same trick works for spray equipment.| 28601|28532|2012-07-19 22:57:17|Don & Karina|Re: Zinc primer plus caulking save tip|I don't post much but in this case I think they are referring to pouring a small amount of thinner in the can over the tar. It will prevent the tar from evaporating. I have one other tip today. When I use caulk in a tube I never use up all of it it seems. I have tried all manner of sealant at the end of the tube to "save" it without success until my last method. What I do is clean the tube end, blow down the tube to make a small gag, fill the gap with regular cooking oil (I use canola) and then tape over the end with masking tape. Works everytime over extended periods of time (months!) Hope this helps the group. Don B from sunny Winnipeg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wild_explorer Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 1:03 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer According to data sheet for MC-Tar, it is shipped in 1Gal or 5Gal cans. You might be able to re-pack it in tube-like vessel (with small volume) and put MC-Thinner on top to displace air. Or use something like tooth-paste-tube/syringe and squeeze it out. May be small plastic water bottles? Wasser recommendation is "Use a solvent float to reseal partial containers". I have no idea what they talking about... May be somebody can explain... Most 2 parts zinc primers comes in 5Gal (total) and it is need to mix components - not for DIY... And it should not be repacked/resealed after mixing anyway. MC-Zinc 100 and MC-MioZinc 100 is a single component primer and comes in 1Gal or 3Gal. 1Gal might work for touch-ups (after repacking/resealing). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "haidan" wrote: > > I used the Wasser stuff. mio-zinc primer and coal tar urethane, it's only been 4-5 years and so far so good. > > Skip > my only complaint was that I didn't buy enough thinner for it and I could just barely use up a 5 gallon can before it kicked off. The urethane being moisture cured will kick as soon as you open the can, so in future I don't really see how I would use it for touch ups unless I could buy it in 250ml cans, which I bet is prohibitively expensive, > > _____ size=1 width="100%" noshade color="#aca899" align=center> No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2195 / Virus Database: 2437/5134 - Release Date: 07/15/12 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28602|28593|2012-07-20 00:28:44|wild_explorer|Re: DIY gantry/gin_pole crane under $100|Easy. The picture you gave link to, shows improved A-frame gantry crane. A-frame + boom. The mast could be used as a crane boom, need to make A frame from 6x6" lamber. Original A frame gantry has only A-frame (no boom). The truck is between rotation axle of the "crane's" A-frame+boom and anchor point. Full size pick-up truck weight about 4000-5000Lb, 5.5ft wheel base. If you have front hitch, you use it as an anchor point with about 14-15ft leverage (to move cable and A-frame). If not, you use 6x6" lumber under front wheels with a chain from one side to another and winch at midpoint. Just draw triangles around the truck. See these links for more info: This old version has more info at the beginnig www.petrospec-technologies.com/Herkommer/knots/FM5-125.pdf New one at the end http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/fm5_125.pdf Some basics www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/usr/module4.pdf --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I am really not getting a mental picture of how you are going to put this together. > > http://www.lni.wa.gov/wisha/rules/generalsafety/images/24_d2_a-frame.gif > > Is this what you are thinking about ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 01:25:25 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] DIY gantry/gin_pole crane under $100 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How about building the mast for the boat first? And use it as a crane? > > > > I was thinking how to simplify lifting before the boat is up. When she is up, Brent has pretty good procedures how to lift items using the hull as an anchor point. > > > > I was trying to figure out how to unload some big or heavy items by myself. It turned out (reading field rigging manuals) that you can easily make A-frame Gantry or Gin-pole crane from timber/lumber with lifting capacity up to 4,000 Lb. > > > > For the safe working angle from 45 to 85 deg from horizontal (-5 to -45 deg from vertical): > > > > 12 ft pole allows you to move object about 6ft (horizontally) and lift it about 8 ft (vertically). > > > > 16 ft pole - move 8.5 ft, lift it l1 ft . > > > > 4000Lb load capacity is for A-frame Gantry made from 6x6"-16ft lumber. > > > > With a little welding (to make a base for the poles) and some temporary/removable modifications you may turn your full size pickup-truck into a crane ;). Modifications - different hitch, welding a foot base for 6x6, making drive-in ramp/frame for rear wheels. > > > > Other misc items: rope or wire rope, hoist or anchor winch, rigging rollers, etc. Actually, it could be built from the parts you need later for the boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28603|28593|2012-07-20 00:51:22|wild_explorer|Re: DIY gantry/gin_pole crane under $100|Brent, it works for uncut plates and only if you have trees around. In my case, I asked to unload CNC cut 40 ft plates people who said they unload plates all the time. They did it with 2 forklifts... Small ones... At the end, I wished I would built the A-frame gantry and did it by myself. I glad I clamped some 2x4's to prevent darts cutouts from flopping. They had hard time even unload 30ft uncut plate. Long story short, they used vertical plate clamps (for vertical lift up) and finally pulled and dropped the plates side way from the truck. It was only reasonably safe way to do it with vertical lifting clamps. I am surprised that nobody got hurt how they did it. They even bent the plates at the clamps' location. Now I need to straight it back up. #$%#&%#&@$ !!!! Morale: rely on yourself only if you want the job done right. P.S.Supplier who did CNC cutting had no problems to load it with overhead crane. They really do it all the time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Fo runloading hull and deck plates, I just tie it to a tree and drive the truck out from under it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > How about building the mast for the boat first? And use it as a crane? > > > > I was thinking how to simplify lifting before the boat is up. When she is up, Brent has pretty good procedures how to lift items using the hull as an anchor point. > > > > I was trying to figure out how to unload some big or heavy items by myself. It turned out (reading field rigging manuals) that you can easily make A-frame Gantry or Gin-pole crane from timber/lumber with lifting capacity up to 4,000 Lb. > > > > For the safe working angle from 45 to 85 deg from horizontal (-5 to -45 deg from vertical): > > > > 12 ft pole alrom under ity.lows you to move object about 6ft (horizontally) and lift it about 8 ft (vertically). > > > > 16 ft pole - move 8.5 ft, lift it l1 ft . > > > > 4000Lb load capacity is for A-frame Gantry made from 6x6"-16ft lumber. > > > > With a little welding (to make a base for the poles) and some temporary/removable modifications you may turn your full size pickup-truck into a crane ;). Modifications - different hitch, welding a foot base for 6x6, making drive-in ramp/frame for rear wheels. > > > > Other misc items: rope or wire rope, hoist or anchor winch, rigging rollers, etc. Actually, it could be built from the parts you need later for the boat. > > > | 28604|28604|2012-07-20 06:19:30|Kim|Stern tube materials ... again!|Hello everyone ... Well, I've just finished fitting the skeg to my boat, and the prop aperture has been cut out. I've just posted some new photos on my boat's website detailing the skeg construction and installation (http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht). Work on the skeg has so far been surprisingly easy; but I think that pulling together the sides of the prop aperture opening is going to be pretty tricky! Soon it will be time to fit the stern tube. As I was wondering what material I should use for the stern tube pipe (stainless steel, ordinary mild steel, galvanised steel, etc), I did a search in this group for messages containing "stern tube" in the subject line. There's been lots of interesting discussions about this, some of them dating back to 2006. But, as with many things boat-related, there was no definitive consensus about what material the stern tube pipe should be made of. Different solutions were proffered for water-lubricated -v- grease-lubricated systems. But if I was to summarise those earlier messages *relating to water-lubricated systems* it might go something like this: * Twin-keelers that dry out from time to time can (or should?) use a stainless steel stern tube, because the pipe will fill up with new oxygenated water when the tide comes back in, thus avoiding oxygen starvation, and with it corrosion of the stainless steel. (How often should they dry out? Would once a week be enough? Would once a month be enough?) That same oxygenated water will encourage the interior of a mild steel pipe to rust. * Single-keelers that never dry out can (or should?) use a mild steel pipe for the stern tube, because the water in the pipe becomes oxygen-starved, and this helps prevent the interior of the pipe rusting. That same oxygen-starved water will cause the interior of a stainless steel pipe to corrode. Do you think the above summary is still correct? If oxygen-starved fluids are stainless steel's enemy, then what about the exterior of a SS stern tube in a Brentboat? In Brent's designs most of the length of the stern tube is inside the skeg, where it's continuously immersed in engine coolant, which may not be oxygen-rich. If not, does that mean that SS pipe should never be used as a stern tube in a Brentboat? Also, in those earlier messages I couldn't find any recommendations for galvanised pipe for stern tube use. Would not galvanised pipe be an alternative solution? I was originally going to use ordinary mild steel pipe (cheaper, no mixed metals underwater, etc); but now I'm uncertain what material I should use. In my particular case I will have to use a water-lubricated system, because I particularly want to fit a PSS Shaft Seal (http://tinyurl.com/shaft-seal) at the inboard end. Prop shaft will be 1" diameter with a cutless bearing (http://tinyurl.com/cutless-bearing) at the outboard end. Regardless of the stern tube pipe material, it's ID is determined by the cutless bearing, and its OD is determined by the PSS Shaft Seal. The closest pipe size that will suit (for a 1" prop shaft) is 1 1/2" SCH 40 (about 48mm x 41mm x 3.7mm); but I'm not sure if its wall thickness will be thick enough if I use an ordinary steel pipe. Anyway, even though it's been talked about before some years ago, I would greatly appreciate your comments and suggestions in relation to stern tube material for water-cooled systems. Cheers ... Kim.| 28605|28604|2012-07-20 08:58:49|Jim Ragsdale|Re: Stern tube materials ... again!|I use 2" schedule 160 mild steel pipe. That has a 2.375"OD and .344 wall thickness. I did have to have the ends machined for the cutlass bearing and the PSS shaft seal on the front. The weight of the tube ought to give plenty of corrosion allowance. I am running a 1-1/4" shaft. On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 5:19 AM, Kim wrote: > ** > > > > Hello everyone ... > > Well, I've just finished fitting the skeg to my boat, and the prop > aperture has been cut out. I've just posted some new photos on my boat's > website detailing the skeg construction and installation ( > http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht). Work on the skeg has so far been > surprisingly easy; but I think that pulling together the sides of the prop > aperture opening is going to be pretty tricky! > > Soon it will be time to fit the stern tube. > > As I was wondering what material I should use for the stern tube pipe > (stainless steel, ordinary mild steel, galvanised steel, etc), I did a > search in this group for messages containing "stern tube" in the subject > line. There's been lots of interesting discussions about this, some of them > dating back to 2006. But, as with many things boat-related, there was no > definitive consensus about what material the stern tube pipe should be made > of. > > Different solutions were proffered for water-lubricated -v- > grease-lubricated systems. But if I was to summarise those earlier messages > *relating to water-lubricated systems* it might go something like this: > > * Twin-keelers that dry out from time to time can (or > should?) use a stainless steel stern tube, because the > pipe will fill up with new oxygenated water when the > tide comes back in, thus avoiding oxygen starvation, and > with it corrosion of the stainless steel. (How often > should they dry out? Would once a week be enough? Would > once a month be enough?) That same oxygenated water will > encourage the interior of a mild steel pipe to rust. > > * Single-keelers that never dry out can (or should?) use a > mild steel pipe for the stern tube, because the water in > the pipe becomes oxygen-starved, and this helps prevent > the interior of the pipe rusting. That same oxygen-starved > water will cause the interior of a stainless steel pipe > to corrode. > > Do you think the above summary is still correct? > > If oxygen-starved fluids are stainless steel's enemy, then what about the > exterior of a SS stern tube in a Brentboat? In Brent's designs most of the > length of the stern tube is inside the skeg, where it's continuously > immersed in engine coolant, which may not be oxygen-rich. If not, does that > mean that SS pipe should never be used as a stern tube in a Brentboat? > > Also, in those earlier messages I couldn't find any recommendations for > galvanised pipe for stern tube use. Would not galvanised pipe be an > alternative solution? I was originally going to use ordinary mild steel > pipe (cheaper, no mixed metals underwater, etc); but now I'm uncertain what > material I should use. > > In my particular case I will have to use a water-lubricated system, > because I particularly want to fit a PSS Shaft Seal ( > http://tinyurl.com/shaft-seal) at the inboard end. Prop shaft will be 1" > diameter with a cutless bearing (http://tinyurl.com/cutless-bearing) at > the outboard end. Regardless of the stern tube pipe material, it's ID is > determined by the cutless bearing, and its OD is determined by the PSS > Shaft Seal. The closest pipe size that will suit (for a 1" prop shaft) is 1 > 1/2" SCH 40 (about 48mm x 41mm x 3.7mm); but I'm not sure if its wall > thickness will be thick enough if I use an ordinary steel pipe. > > Anyway, even though it's been talked about before some years ago, I would > greatly appreciate your comments and suggestions in relation to stern tube > material for water-cooled systems. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28606|28606|2012-07-20 14:11:23|David|26' vs 31'|Kim, or any one else. I've recently joined the group and read Brent's book. I'm interested in something in a bilge keeler (shallow draft) that I can single hand if necessary. What prompted you to pick the 26' over the 31' if there was a choice to be made? I'd be interested in any opinions any one has. Dave| 28607|28604|2012-07-20 16:16:20|Paul Wilson|Re: Stern tube materials ... again!|Hi Kim, I did similar....I used mechanical steel tubing...also called Shelby tubing. Very thick 3/8 inch wall which will never rust out. One advantage with using a thick wall is that you don't need to worry about any distortion when welding it in. Downside as mentioned is that you may need to have the end turned down for the PSS seal. The end for the cutlass bearing is also machined on mine. The cutlass bearing is a tight fit and just presses in. This is all probably overkill but has never been any problem at all in over 20 years. I wouldn't personally use a grease lubricated system. One day the environmentalists will outlaw them, if they haven't already. Great website! Cheers, Paul On 21/07/2012 12:58 a.m., Jim Ragsdale wrote: > I use 2" schedule 160 mild steel pipe. That has a 2.375"OD and .344 wall > thickness. I did have to have the ends machined for the cutlass bearing and > the PSS shaft seal on the front. The weight of the tube ought to give > plenty of corrosion allowance. I am running a 1-1/4" shaft. > | 28608|28604|2012-07-20 19:14:19|brentswain38|Re: Stern tube materials ... again!|Engine coolant (antifreeze) is a strong anti corrosive so it should give you no problem with either ss or galv. The rest is pretty accurate. You could leave the top and bottom of the aperture as is, after the cut out, and put a flat, horizontal plate there, and only have to pull the front of the aperture to a point. Makes it much easier. 1 1/2 inch sch 40 is plenty. Thats all I've ever used. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hello everyone ... > > Well, I've just finished fitting the skeg to my boat, and the prop aperture has been cut out. I've just posted some new photos on my boat's website detailing the skeg construction and installation (http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht). Work on the skeg has so far been surprisingly easy; but I think that pulling together the sides of the prop aperture opening is going to be pretty tricky! > > Soon it will be time to fit the stern tube. > > As I was wondering what material I should use for the stern tube pipe (stainless steel, ordinary mild steel, galvanised steel, etc), I did a search in this group for messages containing "stern tube" in the subject line. There's been lots of interesting discussions about this, some of them dating back to 2006. But, as with many things boat-related, there was no definitive consensus about what material the stern tube pipe should be made of. > > Different solutions were proffered for water-lubricated -v- grease-lubricated systems. But if I was to summarise those earlier messages *relating to water-lubricated systems* it might go something like this: > > * Twin-keelers that dry out from time to time can (or > should?) use a stainless steel stern tube, because the > pipe will fill up with new oxygenated water when the > tide comes back in, thus avoiding oxygen starvation, and > with it corrosion of the stainless steel. (How often > should they dry out? Would once a week be enough? Would > once a month be enough?) That same oxygenated water will > encourage the interior of a mild steel pipe to rust. > > * Single-keelers that never dry out can (or should?) use a > mild steel pipe for the stern tube, because the water in > the pipe becomes oxygen-starved, and this helps prevent > the interior of the pipe rusting. That same oxygen-starved > water will cause the interior of a stainless steel pipe > to corrode. > > Do you think the above summary is still correct? > > If oxygen-starved fluids are stainless steel's enemy, then what about the exterior of a SS stern tube in a Brentboat? In Brent's designs most of the length of the stern tube is inside the skeg, where it's continuously immersed in engine coolant, which may not be oxygen-rich. If not, does that mean that SS pipe should never be used as a stern tube in a Brentboat? > > Also, in those earlier messages I couldn't find any recommendations for galvanised pipe for stern tube use. Would not galvanised pipe be an alternative solution? I was originally going to use ordinary mild steel pipe (cheaper, no mixed metals underwater, etc); but now I'm uncertain what material I should use. > > In my particular case I will have to use a water-lubricated system, because I particularly want to fit a PSS Shaft Seal (http://tinyurl.com/shaft-seal) at the inboard end. Prop shaft will be 1" diameter with a cutless bearing (http://tinyurl.com/cutless-bearing) at the outboard end. Regardless of the stern tube pipe material, it's ID is determined by the cutless bearing, and its OD is determined by the PSS Shaft Seal. The closest pipe size that will suit (for a 1" prop shaft) is 1 1/2" SCH 40 (about 48mm x 41mm x 3.7mm); but I'm not sure if its wall thickness will be thick enough if I use an ordinary steel pipe. > > Anyway, even though it's been talked about before some years ago, I would greatly appreciate your comments and suggestions in relation to stern tube material for water-cooled systems. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > | 28609|28609|2012-07-21 00:00:37|wild_explorer|Welding safety (respirator)|If someone remember, E6013 is a good electrode but dangerous (permanent damage to nerve system if overexposed to welding smoke from this electrode). I was looking for an universal respirator which could be used as Brent suggested "with long flexible pipes" for welding zinc and melting lead. There is a low profile (fits inside welding helmet) half-mask respirator which use screw-in cartridges and have additional "backpack adapter" which allow to place filters on the back. It is available in US and Canada. Brand name is North by Honeywell. 5500/7700 series. Website: http://northsafety.com/ Masks: 7700 Series Half Mask or 5500 Series Half Mask Mask(without filters): ~$20(7700) or ~$10(5500) Adapter: BP1000 Series Backpack Adapter ~$80 Filters P100: 75SCP100 (2 biggest cartridges) ~$20 The good things, you can buy the mask only and mount long flexible pipes similar to "backpack adapter". It should work if done properly... Or... Use a full set... Full set is pricy, but think about that you can save some money, but you cannot buy your health back on money you saved....| 28610|28610|2012-07-21 11:00:46|SHANE ROTHWELL|Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Just got the heads up from my paint guy who I've delt with for 15 years   In Sept, I believe the 9th, ALL OIL BASED PAINTS WILL BE BANNED   Apparently industrail outfits will be able to get it, or apparently if you go through some burocraptic hasstle you will be able to get it at stratouspheric prices, but for the general public it will be banned.   He told me that already all car paint is latex, and whilst not useless, an improvement it is not.   I don't know if this is just B.C. or Canada wide.   Does anyone know the situation in the States? Espcially Washington state?   I'm stocking up! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28611|28610|2012-07-21 15:51:18|Matt Malone|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Will one still be able to buy marine enamel ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: rockrothwell@... Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 08:00:44 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept Just got the heads up from my paint guy who I've delt with for 15 years In Sept, I believe the 9th, ALL OIL BASED PAINTS WILL BE BANNED Apparently industrail outfits will be able to get it, or apparently if you go through some burocraptic hasstle you will be able to get it at stratouspheric prices, but for the general public it will be banned. He told me that already all car paint is latex, and whilst not useless, an improvement it is not. I don't know if this is just B.C. or Canada wide. Does anyone know the situation in the States? Espcially Washington state? I'm stocking up! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28612|28609|2012-07-21 16:40:59|brentswain38|Re: Welding safety (respirator)|Buy just the mask and breath the air from 24 feet away thru a length of plastic sump drain hose. Much safer and much cheaper. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > If someone remember, E6013 is a good electrode but dangerous (permanent damage to nerve system if overexposed to welding smoke from this electrode). I was looking for an universal respirator which could be used as Brent suggested "with long flexible pipes" for welding zinc and melting lead. > > There is a low profile (fits inside welding helmet) half-mask respirator which use screw-in cartridges and have additional "backpack adapter" which allow to place filters on the back. > > It is available in US and Canada. Brand name is North by Honeywell. 5500/7700 series. > > Website: http://northsafety.com/ > > Masks: 7700 Series Half Mask or 5500 Series Half Mask > > Mask(without filters): ~$20(7700) or ~$10(5500) > > Adapter: BP1000 Series Backpack Adapter ~$80 > > Filters P100: 75SCP100 (2 biggest cartridges) ~$20 > > The good things, you can buy the mask only and mount long flexible pipes similar to "backpack adapter". It should work if done properly... > > Or... Use a full set... Full set is pricy, but think about that you can save some money, but you cannot buy your health back on money you saved.... > | 28613|28609|2012-07-21 20:45:52|wild_explorer|Re: Welding safety (respirator)|Yep. I got 1-1/4" 24ft discharge hose from Home Depot for $11 couples of days ago. Backpack adapter for the mask was unavailable from local welding supply store. Brent, thanks again for such brilliant idea! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Buy just the mask and breath the air from 24 feet away thru a length of plastic sump drain hose. Much safer and much cheaper. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > If someone remember, E6013 is a good electrode but dangerous (permanent damage to nerve system if overexposed to welding smoke from this electrode). I was looking for an universal respirator which could be used as Brent suggested "with long flexible pipes" for welding zinc and melting lead. > > > > There is a low profile (fits inside welding helmet) half-mask respirator which use screw-in cartridges and have additional "backpack adapter" which allow to place filters on the back. > > > > It is available in US and Canada. Brand name is North by Honeywell. 5500/7700 series. > > > > Website: http://northsafety.com/ > > > > Masks: 7700 Series Half Mask or 5500 Series Half Mask > > > > Mask(without filters): ~$20(7700) or ~$10(5500) > > > > Adapter: BP1000 Series Backpack Adapter ~$80 > > > > Filters P100: 75SCP100 (2 biggest cartridges) ~$20 > > > > The good things, you can buy the mask only and mount long flexible pipes similar to "backpack adapter". It should work if done properly... > > > > Or... Use a full set... Full set is pricy, but think about that you can save some money, but you cannot buy your health back on money you saved.... > > > | 28614|28606|2012-07-23 01:15:03|Kim|Re: 26' vs 31'|Hi Dave ... There were a couple of things that prompted me to pick Brent's 26' design over the 31'. Firstly: although the amount of "living room" one thinks they need varies greatly from person to person, I knew that the 26' was going to be big enough for me. I simply had no need to go larger. The girlfriend and I once lived on a Roberts 25, and we didn't think that was too cramped. For its length, Brent's 26-footer is really *huge* inside! Although only 26' x 8', it seems *much* bigger than any similar-length boat I've been on. In fact, in an earlier message to this group, Brent once said "the BS 26 has full headroom and is liveable. It has the interior room of an Alberg 30". Further, it has adequate LWL (22') to go to windward in rough weather, and its seaworthiness is proven: one made a voyage through the Northwest Passage, and another sailed from Canada to Australia. Secondly: it is, of course, much cheaper to build, outfit and maintain a 26' than than a longer 31'. This is important to me. I think Brent once commented that there was a big jump in costs between the 26' and the 31'; but less of a jump in costs from the 31' to the 36'. Thirdly: There's an old proverb that says the fun you have in a boat is in inverse proportion to its size (and draft). If true, then I'm on a winner! :-) Also, if you're going to be single-handing your boat: there's another old proverb that says the number of people needed to sail a boat == the number of people needed to build her. I'm building my 26-footer all by myself without any trouble whatsoever. These days, perhaps another reason to have a small boat is that they tend to fall below the radar of the government's ever-increasing "boating bureaucracy". Being able to sit upright at the far end of a small creek, out of sight, out of mind, might be a good thing. Anyway, those are a few of the reasons for my choice. Hope this helps, Dave. Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > > Kim, or any one else. > > I've recently joined the group and read Brent's book. I'm interested in something in a bilge keeler (shallow draft) that I can single hand if necessary. What prompted you to pick the 26' over the 31' if there was a choice to be made? I'd be interested in any opinions any one has. > > Dave ______________________________________________________________ | 28615|28604|2012-07-23 01:16:55|Kim|Re: Stern tube materials ... again!|Brent, Paul and Jim ... Many thanks for your responses. Very much appreciated. After reading your replies I think I'll go back to my original stern tube plan: use a mild steel pipe (with a heavier than average wall). I'll smother it in paint after sandblasting, and hopefully I'll die of old age before any rust in its interior will be a problem! :-) Thanks again! Cheers ... Kim. ______________________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Engine coolant (antifreeze) is a strong anti corrosive so it should give you no problem with either ss or galv. The rest is pretty accurate. > > You could leave the top and bottom of the aperture as is, after the cut out, and put a flat, horizontal plate there, and only have to pull the front of the aperture to a point. Makes it much easier. > > 1 1/2 inch sch 40 is plenty. Thats all I've ever used. ______________________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Kim, > > I did similar....I used mechanical steel tubing...also called Shelby > tubing. Very thick 3/8 inch wall which will never rust out. One > advantage with using a thick wall is that you don't need to worry about > any distortion when welding it in. Downside as mentioned is that you > may need to have the end turned down for the PSS seal. The end for the > cutlass bearing is also machined on mine. The cutlass bearing is a > tight fit and just presses in. This is all probably overkill but has > never been any problem at all in over 20 years. > > I wouldn't personally use a grease lubricated system. One day the > environmentalists will outlaw them, if they haven't already. > > Great website! > > Cheers, Paul ______________________________________________________________________ > On 21/07/2012 12:58 a.m., Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > I use 2" schedule 160 mild steel pipe. That has a 2.375"OD and .344 wall > thickness. I did have to have the ends machined for the cutlass bearing and > the PSS shaft seal on the front. The weight of the tube ought to give > plenty of corrosion allowance. I am running a 1-1/4" shaft. ______________________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > Hello everyone ... > > Well, I've just finished fitting the skeg to my boat, and the prop aperture has been cut out. I've just posted some new photos on my boat's website detailing the skeg construction and installation (http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht). Work on the skeg has so far been surprisingly easy; but I think that pulling together the sides of the prop aperture opening is going to be pretty tricky! > > Soon it will be time to fit the stern tube. > > As I was wondering what material I should use for the stern tube pipe (stainless steel, ordinary mild steel, galvanised steel, etc), I did a search in this group for messages containing "stern tube" in the subject line. There's been lots of interesting discussions about this, some of them dating back to 2006. But, as with many things boat-related, there was no definitive consensus about what material the stern tube pipe should be made of. > > Different solutions were proffered for water-lubricated -v- grease-lubricated systems. But if I was to summarise those earlier messages *relating to water-lubricated systems* it might go something like this: > > * Twin-keelers that dry out from time to time can (or > should?) use a stainless steel stern tube, because the > pipe will fill up with new oxygenated water when the > tide comes back in, thus avoiding oxygen starvation, and > with it corrosion of the stainless steel. (How often > should they dry out? Would once a week be enough? Would > once a month be enough?) That same oxygenated water will > encourage the interior of a mild steel pipe to rust. > > * Single-keelers that never dry out can (or should?) use a > mild steel pipe for the stern tube, because the water in > the pipe becomes oxygen-starved, and this helps prevent > the interior of the pipe rusting. That same oxygen-starved > water will cause the interior of a stainless steel pipe > to corrode. > > Do you think the above summary is still correct? > > If oxygen-starved fluids are stainless steel's enemy, then what about the exterior of a SS stern tube in a Brentboat? In Brent's designs most of the length of the stern tube is inside the skeg, where it's continuously immersed in engine coolant, which may not be oxygen-rich. If not, does that mean that SS pipe should never be used as a stern tube in a Brentboat? > > Also, in those earlier messages I couldn't find any recommendations for galvanised pipe for stern tube use. Would not galvanised pipe be an alternative solution? I was originally going to use ordinary mild steel pipe (cheaper, no mixed metals underwater, etc); but now I'm uncertain what material I should use. > > In my particular case I will have to use a water-lubricated system, because I particularly want to fit a PSS Shaft Seal (http://tinyurl.com/shaft-seal) at the inboard end. Prop shaft will be 1" diameter with a cutless bearing (http://tinyurl.com/cutless-bearing) at the outboard end. Regardless of the stern tube pipe material, it's ID is determined by the cutless bearing, and its OD is determined by the PSS Shaft Seal. The closest pipe size that will suit (for a 1" prop shaft) is 1 1/2" SCH 40 (about 48mm x 41mm x 3.7mm); but I'm not sure if its wall thickness will be thick enough if I use an ordinary steel pipe. > > Anyway, even though it's been talked about before some years ago, I would greatly appreciate your comments and suggestions in relation to stern tube material for water-cooled systems. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. ______________________________________________________________________ | 28616|28610|2012-07-23 16:49:35|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Is this provincial or federal law? All Federal MPs in Canada have a 1-800 number you can call them at for free, as many times a week as it takes for it to sink in. Here in the Comox Vally, it is 1-800-667-3722. If it is a BC Provincial law, you can call 1-800-663-7867, and ask to be connected with the premiers office , or the environment minsters office. The more calls they get, the greater the influence.Kep caling them at every oppotunity. The way they sneaked it in without telling anyone, implies that is what they are afraid oif. I found it hard to believe that, while they promote the traffic of supertankers thru an extremely dangerous part of one of the most pristine coasts in the world, they express "environmental" concern over the oil in our paint.I underestimated the incredible stupidity of governments, and the brainless bureuacrats who advise them. When you are dealing with govenments, and their bureaucrats, there is no limit to their stupidity. Sure, paint companies would advocate something which falls off, as the more it falls off, the more money they make, especially when all reasonable alternatives are banned. I could switch to polyurethane , if that was not also banned, but when it comnes time to recoat , you have to sand a glass hard finish to get it to stick, and you have to have ideal conditions, something which can be rare in these lattitudes. Requiring people to deal with so cale "Proffessional" painters is a form of extortion, saying "Pay our friends in the painting industry huge sums of money, or watch your floating home deteriorate, til you are sleeping in a dumpster." This appears to violate the equality provisions in the charter of rights. I'd get real nasty before I let that happen. Many full time liveaboards would. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Will one still be able to buy marine enamel ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: rockrothwell@... > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 08:00:44 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just got the heads up from my paint guy who I've delt with for 15 years > > > > In Sept, I believe the 9th, ALL OIL BASED PAINTS WILL BE BANNED > > > > Apparently industrail outfits will be able to get it, or apparently if you go through some burocraptic hasstle you will be able to get it at stratouspheric prices, but for the general public it will be banned. > > > > He told me that already all car paint is latex, and whilst not useless, an improvement it is not. > > > > I don't know if this is just B.C. or Canada wide. > > > > Does anyone know the situation in the States? Espcially Washington state? > > > > I'm stocking up! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28617|28610|2012-07-23 16:58:23|Matt Malone|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Volatile Organic Compound (VOC) Concentration Limits for Architectural Coatings Regulations http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2009/2009-09-30/html/sor-dors264-eng.html It does not say anything about paint used to inhibit rust on machinery or vehicles. I am hoping that boat paint, tremclad, other marine enamels are not covered by this regulation. (3) These Regulations, except for sections 17 and 19, do not apply in respect of the following architectural coatings set out in the schedule if their container has a capacity of one litre or less: (a) faux finish; (b) any other high-temperature coating; (c) any other lacquer, including lacquer sanding sealers; (d) any other varnish; (e) low solids coating; (f) quick-dry enamel; (g) interior wiping stain; (h) exterior wood stain; (i) any other stain; and (j) rust preventive coating. So, it sounds like, in any case, we will be able to buy one litre cans. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 20:49:34 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept Is this provincial or federal law? All Federal MPs in Canada have a 1-800 number you can call them at for free, as many times a week as it takes for it to sink in. Here in the Comox Vally, it is 1-800-667-3722. If it is a BC Provincial law, you can call 1-800-663-7867, and ask to be connected with the premiers office , or the environment minsters office. The more calls they get, the greater the influence.Kep caling them at every oppotunity. The way they sneaked it in without telling anyone, implies that is what they are afraid oif. I found it hard to believe that, while they promote the traffic of supertankers thru an extremely dangerous part of one of the most pristine coasts in the world, they express "environmental" concern over the oil in our paint.I underestimated the incredible stupidity of governments, and the brainless bureuacrats who advise them. When you are dealing with govenments, and their bureaucrats, there is no limit to their stupidity. Sure, paint companies would advocate something which falls off, as the more it falls off, the more money they make, especially when all reasonable alternatives are banned. I could switch to polyurethane , if that was not also banned, but when it comnes time to recoat , you have to sand a glass hard finish to get it to stick, and you have to have ideal conditions, something which can be rare in these lattitudes. Requiring people to deal with so cale "Proffessional" painters is a form of extortion, saying "Pay our friends in the painting industry huge sums of money, or watch your floating home deteriorate, til you are sleeping in a dumpster." This appears to violate the equality provisions in the charter of rights. I'd get real nasty before I let that happen. Many full time liveaboards would. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Will one still be able to buy marine enamel ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: rockrothwell@... > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 08:00:44 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just got the heads up from my paint guy who I've delt with for 15 years > > > > In Sept, I believe the 9th, ALL OIL BASED PAINTS WILL BE BANNED > > > > Apparently industrail outfits will be able to get it, or apparently if you go through some burocraptic hasstle you will be able to get it at stratouspheric prices, but for the general public it will be banned. > > > > He told me that already all car paint is latex, and whilst not useless, an improvement it is not. > > > > I don't know if this is just B.C. or Canada wide. > > > > Does anyone know the situation in the States? Espcially Washington state? > > > > I'm stocking up! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28618|28610|2012-07-23 17:06:14|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, after a long rant against government stupidity. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Is this provincial or federal law? All Federal MPs in Canada have a 1-800 number you can call them at for free, as many times a week as it takes for it to sink in. Here in the Comox Vally, it is 1-800-667-3722. If it is a BC Provincial law, you can call 1-800-663-7867, and ask to be connected with the premiers office , or the environment minsters office. The more calls they get, the greater the influence.Kep caling them at every oppotunity. The way they sneaked it in without telling anyone, implies that is what they are afraid oif. > I found it hard to believe that, while they promote the traffic of supertankers thru an extremely dangerous part of one of the most pristine coasts in the world, they express "environmental" concern over the oil in our paint.I underestimated the incredible stupidity of governments, and the brainless bureuacrats who advise them. When you are dealing with govenments, and their bureaucrats, there is no limit to their stupidity. > Sure, paint companies would advocate something which falls off, as the more it falls off, the more money they make, especially when all reasonable alternatives are banned. > I could switch to polyurethane , if that was not also banned, but when it comnes time to recoat , you have to sand a glass hard finish to get it to stick, and you have to have ideal conditions, something which can be rare in these lattitudes. > Requiring people to deal with so cale "Proffessional" painters is a form of extortion, saying "Pay our friends in the painting industry huge sums of money, or watch your floating home deteriorate, til you are sleeping in a dumpster." This appears to violate the equality provisions in the charter of rights. I'd get real nasty before I let that happen. Many full time liveaboards would. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > Will one still be able to buy marine enamel ? > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: rockrothwell@ > > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 08:00:44 -0700 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just got the heads up from my paint guy who I've delt with for 15 years > > > > > > > > In Sept, I believe the 9th, ALL OIL BASED PAINTS WILL BE BANNED > > > > > > > > Apparently industrail outfits will be able to get it, or apparently if you go through some burocraptic hasstle you will be able to get it at stratouspheric prices, but for the general public it will be banned. > > > > > > > > He told me that already all car paint is latex, and whilst not useless, an improvement it is not. > > > > > > > > I don't know if this is just B.C. or Canada wide. > > > > > > > > Does anyone know the situation in the States? Espcially Washington state? > > > > > > > > I'm stocking up! > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 28619|28619|2012-07-23 17:13:27|brentswain38|Reducing thinner requirements|I use a canning jar with a tight lid, for thinner, for cleaning out my brushes. A bit of diesel added eliminates the chance of everything in the brush going hard. When I have cleaned the brush, I tightly screw the lid on the jar so the thinner doesnt evaporate. I just used some thinner in such a jar, from last years painting. Beats having to throw away the thinner every time you use it, or having it evaporate. Works well for spray painting equipment as well. If you dont put the diesel in it, you can use it for thinning your next coat of paint.| 28620|28610|2012-07-23 17:51:49|Paul Wilson|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. Paul On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > after a long rant against government stupidity. > | 28621|28610|2012-07-23 22:20:56|martin demers|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|coal tar epoxy???? Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:58:22 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > Volatile Organic Compound (VOC) Concentration Limits for Architectural Coatings Regulations > http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2009/2009-09-30/html/sor-dors264-eng.html > > It does not say anything about paint used to inhibit rust on machinery or vehicles. I am hoping that boat paint, tremclad, other marine enamels are not covered by this regulation. > > (3) These Regulations, except for sections 17 and > 19, do not apply in respect of the following architectural coatings set > out in the schedule if their container has a capacity of one litre or > less: > (a) faux finish; > (b) any other high-temperature coating; > (c) any other lacquer, including lacquer sanding sealers; > (d) any other varnish; > (e) low solids coating; > (f) quick-dry enamel; > (g) interior wiping stain; > (h) exterior wood stain; > (i) any other stain; and > (j) rust preventive coating. > So, it sounds like, in any case, we will be able to buy one litre cans. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 20:49:34 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this provincial or federal law? All Federal MPs in Canada have a 1-800 number you can call them at for free, as many times a week as it takes for it to sink in. Here in the Comox Vally, it is 1-800-667-3722. If it is a BC Provincial law, you can call 1-800-663-7867, and ask to be connected with the premiers office , or the environment minsters office. The more calls they get, the greater the influence.Kep caling them at every oppotunity. The way they sneaked it in without telling anyone, implies that is what they are afraid oif. > > I found it hard to believe that, while they promote the traffic of supertankers thru an extremely dangerous part of one of the most pristine coasts in the world, they express "environmental" concern over the oil in our paint.I underestimated the incredible stupidity of governments, and the brainless bureuacrats who advise them. When you are dealing with govenments, and their bureaucrats, there is no limit to their stupidity. > > Sure, paint companies would advocate something which falls off, as the more it falls off, the more money they make, especially when all reasonable alternatives are banned. > > I could switch to polyurethane , if that was not also banned, but when it comnes time to recoat , you have to sand a glass hard finish to get it to stick, and you have to have ideal conditions, something which can be rare in these lattitudes. > > Requiring people to deal with so cale "Proffessional" painters is a form of extortion, saying "Pay our friends in the painting industry huge sums of money, or watch your floating home deteriorate, til you are sleeping in a dumpster." This appears to violate the equality provisions in the charter of rights. I'd get real nasty before I let that happen. Many full time liveaboards would. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Will one still be able to buy marine enamel ? > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: rockrothwell@... > > > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 08:00:44 -0700 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just got the heads up from my paint guy who I've delt with for 15 years > > > > > > > > > > > > In Sept, I believe the 9th, ALL OIL BASED PAINTS WILL BE BANNED > > > > > > > > > > > > Apparently industrail outfits will be able to get it, or apparently if you go through some burocraptic hasstle you will be able to get it at stratouspheric prices, but for the general public it will be banned. > > > > > > > > > > > > He told me that already all car paint is latex, and whilst not useless, an improvement it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if this is just B.C. or Canada wide. > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know the situation in the States? Espcially Washington state? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm stocking up! > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28622|28606|2012-07-24 09:43:53|David|Re: 26' vs 31'|Kim, Thanks for the reply. Your reasoning pretty much mirrors my thoughts, it just seems to make more sense when you read them. I've really been enjoying your blog. Dave --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Dave ... > > There were a couple of things that prompted me to pick Brent's 26' design over the 31'. > > Firstly: although the amount of "living room" one thinks they need varies greatly from person to person, I knew that the 26' was going to be big enough for me. I simply had no need to go larger. The girlfriend and I once lived on a Roberts 25, and we didn't think that was too cramped. For its length, Brent's 26-footer is really *huge* inside! Although only 26' x 8', it seems *much* bigger than any similar-length boat I've been on. In fact, in an earlier message to this group, Brent once said "the BS 26 has full headroom and is liveable. It has the interior room of an Alberg 30". Further, it has adequate LWL (22') to go to windward in rough weather, and its seaworthiness is proven: one made a voyage through the Northwest Passage, and another sailed from Canada to Australia. > > Secondly: it is, of course, much cheaper to build, outfit and maintain a 26' than than a longer 31'. This is important to me. I think Brent once commented that there was a big jump in costs between the 26' and the 31'; but less of a jump in costs from the 31' to the 36'. > > Thirdly: There's an old proverb that says the fun you have in a boat is in inverse proportion to its size (and draft). If true, then I'm on a winner! :-) > > Also, if you're going to be single-handing your boat: there's another old proverb that says the number of people needed to sail a boat == the number of people needed to build her. I'm building my 26-footer all by myself without any trouble whatsoever. > > These days, perhaps another reason to have a small boat is that they tend to fall below the radar of the government's ever-increasing "boating bureaucracy". Being able to sit upright at the far end of a small creek, out of sight, out of mind, might be a good thing. > > Anyway, those are a few of the reasons for my choice. Hope this helps, Dave. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > ______________________________________________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > > > > Kim, or any one else. > > > > I've recently joined the group and read Brent's book. I'm interested in something in a bilge keeler (shallow draft) that I can single hand if necessary. What prompted you to pick the 26' over the 31' if there was a choice to be made? I'd be interested in any opinions any one has. > > > > Dave > ______________________________________________________________ > | 28623|28610|2012-07-24 15:20:27|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. So the ban applies across Canada. I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > Paul > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > | 28624|28610|2012-07-24 15:21:46|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|I'l have to ask the paint stores about Epoxy tar. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > coal tar epoxy???? > > Martin > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: m_j_malone@... > > Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:58:22 -0400 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > Volatile Organic Compound (VOC) Concentration Limits for Architectural Coatings Regulations > > http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2009/2009-09-30/html/sor-dors264-eng.html > > > > It does not say anything about paint used to inhibit rust on machinery or vehicles. I am hoping that boat paint, tremclad, other marine enamels are not covered by this regulation. > > > > (3) These Regulations, except for sections 17 and > > 19, do not apply in respect of the following architectural coatings set > > out in the schedule if their container has a capacity of one litre or > > less: > > (a) faux finish; > > (b) any other high-temperature coating; > > (c) any other lacquer, including lacquer sanding sealers; > > (d) any other varnish; > > (e) low solids coating; > > (f) quick-dry enamel; > > (g) interior wiping stain; > > (h) exterior wood stain; > > (i) any other stain; and > > (j) rust preventive coating. > > So, it sounds like, in any case, we will be able to buy one litre cans. > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 20:49:34 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this provincial or federal law? All Federal MPs in Canada have a 1-800 number you can call them at for free, as many times a week as it takes for it to sink in. Here in the Comox Vally, it is 1-800-667-3722. If it is a BC Provincial law, you can call 1-800-663-7867, and ask to be connected with the premiers office , or the environment minsters office. The more calls they get, the greater the influence.Kep caling them at every oppotunity. The way they sneaked it in without telling anyone, implies that is what they are afraid oif. > > > > I found it hard to believe that, while they promote the traffic of supertankers thru an extremely dangerous part of one of the most pristine coasts in the world, they express "environmental" concern over the oil in our paint.I underestimated the incredible stupidity of governments, and the brainless bureuacrats who advise them. When you are dealing with govenments, and their bureaucrats, there is no limit to their stupidity. > > > > Sure, paint companies would advocate something which falls off, as the more it falls off, the more money they make, especially when all reasonable alternatives are banned. > > > > I could switch to polyurethane , if that was not also banned, but when it comnes time to recoat , you have to sand a glass hard finish to get it to stick, and you have to have ideal conditions, something which can be rare in these lattitudes. > > > > Requiring people to deal with so cale "Proffessional" painters is a form of extortion, saying "Pay our friends in the painting industry huge sums of money, or watch your floating home deteriorate, til you are sleeping in a dumpster." This appears to violate the equality provisions in the charter of rights. I'd get real nasty before I let that happen. Many full time liveaboards would. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will one still be able to buy marine enamel ? > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: rockrothwell@ > > > > > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 08:00:44 -0700 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just got the heads up from my paint guy who I've delt with for 15 years > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In Sept, I believe the 9th, ALL OIL BASED PAINTS WILL BE BANNED > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apparently industrail outfits will be able to get it, or apparently if you go through some burocraptic hasstle you will be able to get it at stratouspheric prices, but for the general public it will be banned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He told me that already all car paint is latex, and whilst not useless, an improvement it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if this is just B.C. or Canada wide. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know the situation in the States? Espcially Washington state? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm stocking up! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28625|28604|2012-07-24 16:45:49|haidan|Re: Stern tube materials ... again!|I sprayed the sand blaster through the stern tube then pulled a paint soaked rag through a couple times.| 28626|28610|2012-07-25 19:03:40|Tom Pee|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.  They are even more liberal than even the US.  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept   I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. So the ban applies across Canada. I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > Paul > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28627|28610|2012-07-25 19:09:35|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|"Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.  They are even more liberal than even the US.  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > >   > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > So the ban applies across Canada. > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28628|28610|2012-07-26 02:12:12|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|"Liberal" and "freedom" seem to be the two most advanced Newspeak-terms of nowadays Orwellian Big Brothery, euphemistically referred to as "democracy" (closely followed by the third placed term "terrorism", which is incrementally used as a synonym for Orwells thoughtcrime). Considerably extending the boundaries of profit simply does not work properly in an economic environment spoilt with human rights, justness and respect. And since comrade Gorbatchev spalled the mirror's leftish face, the disjunction ain't any more between lefties versus right wingers; today it seems more like the sparse obtainer of effortless interest versus unpropertied working poor, with a wily usage of outdated anticommunist reflexes to prevent the latter's unity. Am 26.07.2012 um 01:09 schrieb brentswain38: > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28629|28610|2012-07-26 04:44:29|Paul Wilson|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Orwell is one of my favorite authors and 1984 is one of my favorite books.....an absolute must read. Beautifully written, incredibly insightful, and totally appropriate for what is happening in the world right now. Paul On 26/07/2012 6:12 p.m., Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > "Liberal" and "freedom" seem to be the two most advanced > Newspeak-terms of nowadays Orwellian Big Brothery, euphemistically > referred to as "democracy" (closely followed by the third placed term > "terrorism", which is incrementally used as a synonym for Orwells > thoughtcrime). > > Considerably extending the boundaries of profit simply does not work > properly in an economic environment spoilt with human rights, justness > and respect. > > And since comrade Gorbatchev spalled the mirror's leftish face, the > disjunction ain't any more between lefties versus right wingers; > today it seems more like the sparse obtainer of effortless interest > versus unpropertied working poor, with a wily usage of outdated > anticommunist reflexes to prevent the latter's unity. > | 28630|28610|2012-07-26 08:29:47|James Pronk|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|I see you have no clue about Canada, Tom --- On Tue, 7/24/12, Tom Pee wrote: From: Tom Pee Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Tuesday, July 24, 2012, 6:05 PM   Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.  They are even more liberal than even the US.  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept   I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. So the ban applies across Canada. I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > Paul > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28631|28532|2012-07-26 10:59:32|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|Just to give you an idea about the price (as today) per gallon for Wasser products suitable for steel boat (3/5 Gal cans are slightly cheaper per Gal): MC-Zinc100 (primer gray) - $115/Gal - 1 or 3 Gal cans. Coverage is about 200-300 sf/gal per coat. MC-MioZinc100 (primer green) - $105/Gal - 1 or 3 Gal cans. Coverage is about 200 sf/gal per coat. MC-Tar100 (finish red or black) - $80/Gal - 1 or 5 Gal cans. Coverage is about 150-200 sf/gal per coat. Plus you need thinner. So, 1 Gal of primer should be enough for 1 side of 20x8 ft plate (160 sf). MC-Zinc100 could be OK for 2 sides.| 28632|28532|2012-07-26 11:25:34|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids they have offices in B.C. I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:59:29 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer Just to give you an idea about the price (as today) per gallon for Wasser products suitable for steel boat (3/5 Gal cans are slightly cheaper per Gal): MC-Zinc100 (primer gray) - $115/Gal - 1 or 3 Gal cans. Coverage is about 200-300 sf/gal per coat. MC-MioZinc100 (primer green) - $105/Gal - 1 or 3 Gal cans. Coverage is about 200 sf/gal per coat. MC-Tar100 (finish red or black) - $80/Gal - 1 or 5 Gal cans. Coverage is about 150-200 sf/gal per coat. Plus you need thinner. So, 1 Gal of primer should be enough for 1 side of 20x8 ft plate (160 sf). MC-Zinc100 could be OK for 2 sides. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28633|28532|2012-07-26 12:17:50|Mark Hamill|Re: Zinc primer|Martin: I bought some Hempel bottom paint in a Richmond, BC Cloverdale paint store about 6 years ago--I think they stopped carrying it--anyway I liked the paint and it has held up well. That's a good price--I got it on sale but was still pricey. Will put it on the new boat if I can find it at a good price--MarkH| 28634|28532|2012-07-26 18:33:11|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Zinc primer|... oh, it DOES come with a Danish girl to roll Your bottom. But in good ol' Europe only, I'm afraid. (OK, five bucks in the macho-patter piggy bank ... ) ;-D Cheers G_B Am 26.07.2012 um 17:25 schrieb martin demers: > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > they have offices in B.C. > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > Martin | 28635|28532|2012-07-26 18:54:21|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|Giuseppe, Ok, I'll paint the strict minimum(under water line) here and will finish the job in good ol'Europe... Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: giuseppe.bergman@... Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 00:33:08 +0200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer ... oh, it DOES come with a Danish girl to roll Your bottom. But in good ol' Europe only, I'm afraid. (OK, five bucks in the macho-patter piggy bank ... ) ;-D Cheers G_B Am 26.07.2012 um 17:25 schrieb martin demers: > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > they have offices in B.C. > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > Martin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28636|28532|2012-07-26 18:56:08|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|Mark, I think you have to buy from factory to get better price Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:17:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer Martin: I bought some Hempel bottom paint in a Richmond, BC Cloverdale paint store about 6 years ago--I think they stopped carrying it--anyway I liked the paint and it has held up well. That's a good price--I got it on sale but was still pricey. Will put it on the new boat if I can find it at a good price--MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28637|28610|2012-07-26 20:49:18|chris123|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept| This issue has nothing to do with environmental concerns even though it may be presented as such. Its simply a matter of production costs and being able to secure raw materials at a fixed rate rather then a fluctuating rate...so the profit margins are far more predictable. If there really was a concern with VOC most industrial manufacturing facilities would be closed down. I used to work in this sector for a major auto maker and its unbelievable what they can get away with. Especially now with the decline of auto in NA. For example the metric and constant in the 80's for particulates was 10,000Mtonnes per day in ON. That was the factor in the formula used to calculate the loading rate from a particular source point of emission. I almost puked with I completed the application which was granted. And you wonder why asthma is on the rise in kids. Gee go figure. No the entire so called environmental agenda has been placed on the shoulders and burden of the public. At the fed level we have the most laxed env legislation in G8 at the provincial level it varies between provinces, with ON leading the way...industry is totally self regulating. The super bill at the fed level ensured that all future environmental assessments as they pertain to oil production in Canada will now fall under the Ministry of Natural Resources and "cannot" hold up projects time lines. So there you have it, Has nothing to do with env concerns. Look elsewhere for a reason or justification. Same with the paint issue. With respect to the Charter, its a piece of paper, that protects you only if you stay within bounds as established by the courts..Your personal freedom is not a matter of a paper nor charter, we all know that. Now back to sailing...sorrow for the segway but this shit always gets my goat. /ch On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 5:06 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, after > a long rant against government stupidity. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28638|28610|2012-07-26 21:21:35|Tom Pee|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Brent, the first thing I thought after i wrote that was the word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did relate too about 100 years ago.  Need to be careful using  such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown communism, then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel".   One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept   "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.  They are even more liberal than even the US.  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > >   > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > So the ban applies across Canada. > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28639|28610|2012-07-26 21:34:29|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > Brent, the first thing I thought after i wrote that was the word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did relate too about 100 years ago.  Need to be careful using  such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown communism, then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel". >   > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > >   > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.  They are even more liberal than even the US.  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > >   > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28640|28610|2012-07-26 21:38:42|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|If it was about supply of materials, then why wouldnt the corp$ervatives simply let their "Sink or swim "philosophy apply to the paint companies, and thus practice what they have been preaching all along.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > > > This issue has nothing to do with environmental concerns even though it may > be presented as such. Its simply a matter of production costs and being > able to secure raw materials at a fixed rate rather then a fluctuating > rate...so the profit margins are far more predictable. If there really was > a concern with VOC most industrial manufacturing facilities would be closed > down. I used to work in this sector for a major auto maker and its > unbelievable what they can get away with. Especially now with the decline > of auto in NA. For example the metric and constant in the 80's for > particulates was 10,000Mtonnes per day in ON. That was the factor in the > formula used to calculate the loading rate from a particular source point > of emission. I almost puked with I completed the application which was > granted. And you wonder why asthma is on the rise in kids. Gee go figure. > > > No the entire so called environmental agenda has been placed on the > shoulders and burden of the public. At the fed level we have the most laxed > env legislation in G8 at the provincial level it varies between provinces, > with ON leading the way...industry is totally self regulating. The super > bill at the fed level ensured that all future environmental assessments as > they pertain to oil production in Canada will now fall under the Ministry > of Natural Resources and "cannot" hold up projects time lines. So there you > have it, Has nothing to do with env concerns. Look elsewhere for a reason > or justification. Same with the paint issue. With respect to the Charter, > its a piece of paper, that protects you only if you stay within bounds as > established by the courts..Your personal freedom is not a matter of a paper > nor charter, we all know that. > > > > Now back to sailing...sorrow for the segway but this shit always gets my > goat. > > /ch > > > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 5:06 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, after > > a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28641|28610|2012-07-26 21:40:10|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Sounds a lot more expensive. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Volatile Organic Compound (VOC) Concentration Limits for Architectural Coatings Regulations > http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2009/2009-09-30/html/sor-dors264-eng.html > > It does not say anything about paint used to inhibit rust on machinery or vehicles. I am hoping that boat paint, tremclad, other marine enamels are not covered by this regulation. > > (3) These Regulations, except for sections 17 and > 19, do not apply in respect of the following architectural coatings set > out in the schedule if their container has a capacity of one litre or > less: > (a) faux finish; > (b) any other high-temperature coating; > (c) any other lacquer, including lacquer sanding sealers; > (d) any other varnish; > (e) low solids coating; > (f) quick-dry enamel; > (g) interior wiping stain; > (h) exterior wood stain; > (i) any other stain; and > (j) rust preventive coating. > So, it sounds like, in any case, we will be able to buy one litre cans. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 20:49:34 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this provincial or federal law? All Federal MPs in Canada have a 1-800 number you can call them at for free, as many times a week as it takes for it to sink in. Here in the Comox Vally, it is 1-800-667-3722. If it is a BC Provincial law, you can call 1-800-663-7867, and ask to be connected with the premiers office , or the environment minsters office. The more calls they get, the greater the influence.Kep caling them at every oppotunity. The way they sneaked it in without telling anyone, implies that is what they are afraid oif. > > I found it hard to believe that, while they promote the traffic of supertankers thru an extremely dangerous part of one of the most pristine coasts in the world, they express "environmental" concern over the oil in our paint.I underestimated the incredible stupidity of governments, and the brainless bureuacrats who advise them. When you are dealing with govenments, and their bureaucrats, there is no limit to their stupidity. > > Sure, paint companies would advocate something which falls off, as the more it falls off, the more money they make, especially when all reasonable alternatives are banned. > > I could switch to polyurethane , if that was not also banned, but when it comnes time to recoat , you have to sand a glass hard finish to get it to stick, and you have to have ideal conditions, something which can be rare in these lattitudes. > > Requiring people to deal with so cale "Proffessional" painters is a form of extortion, saying "Pay our friends in the painting industry huge sums of money, or watch your floating home deteriorate, til you are sleeping in a dumpster." This appears to violate the equality provisions in the charter of rights. I'd get real nasty before I let that happen. Many full time liveaboards would. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Will one still be able to buy marine enamel ? > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: rockrothwell@ > > > Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 08:00:44 -0700 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just got the heads up from my paint guy who I've delt with for 15 years > > > > > > > > > > > > In Sept, I believe the 9th, ALL OIL BASED PAINTS WILL BE BANNED > > > > > > > > > > > > Apparently industrail outfits will be able to get it, or apparently if you go through some burocraptic hasstle you will be able to get it at stratouspheric prices, but for the general public it will be banned. > > > > > > > > > > > > He told me that already all car paint is latex, and whilst not useless, an improvement it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if this is just B.C. or Canada wide. > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know the situation in the States? Espcially Washington state? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm stocking up! > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28642|28532|2012-07-26 21:44:09|brentswain38|Re: Zinc primer|A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > they have offices in B.C. > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:59:29 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just to give you an idea about the price (as today) per gallon for Wasser products suitable for steel boat (3/5 Gal cans are slightly cheaper per Gal): > > > > MC-Zinc100 (primer gray) - $115/Gal - 1 or 3 Gal cans. Coverage is about 200-300 sf/gal per coat. > > MC-MioZinc100 (primer green) - $105/Gal - 1 or 3 Gal cans. Coverage is about 200 sf/gal per coat. > > MC-Tar100 (finish red or black) - $80/Gal - 1 or 5 Gal cans. Coverage is about 150-200 sf/gal per coat. > > > > Plus you need thinner. > > > > So, 1 Gal of primer should be enough for 1 side of 20x8 ft plate (160 sf). MC-Zinc100 could be OK for 2 sides. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28643|28532|2012-07-26 22:30:27|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|good to know! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 01:44:09 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > they have offices in B.C. > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:59:29 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just to give you an idea about the price (as today) per gallon for Wasser products suitable for steel boat (3/5 Gal cans are slightly cheaper per Gal): > > > > MC-Zinc100 (primer gray) - $115/Gal - 1 or 3 Gal cans. Coverage is about 200-300 sf/gal per coat. > > MC-MioZinc100 (primer green) - $105/Gal - 1 or 3 Gal cans. Coverage is about 200 sf/gal per coat. > > MC-Tar100 (finish red or black) - $80/Gal - 1 or 5 Gal cans. Coverage is about 150-200 sf/gal per coat. > > > > Plus you need thinner. > > > > So, 1 Gal of primer should be enough for 1 side of 20x8 ft plate (160 sf). MC-Zinc100 could be OK for 2 sides. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28644|28532|2012-07-27 01:29:10|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|Martin, could you tell us what exact epoxy's/part number you are talking about? There is a bunch of products there... Hempel's USA site is terrible - hard to find information. http://www.hempel.us Choose "Marine" tab. Follow the links... There is no complete recommendation what to use. Blah... There is Epoxy Radagram tool which allows to find products, but some links are broken. I found only one shop primer there for marine use (definitely not for DIY): HEMPEL'S SHOPPRIMER ZS 15890 is a two-component, solvent-borne zinc ethyl silicate shopprimer, designed for automatic spray application. It looks like Europe has much more choices... There is some self-priming coal tar epoxy, but I could not find exact part #. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > > they have offices in B.C. > > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > > > Martin | 28645|28532|2012-07-27 04:06:14|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Zinc primer|Prices, not only Hempel's, often differ hugely between what workshops have to pay and what the end-user has to pay at the very same retailer, same units given. Probably a professional would buy Your needs on his account for You? You would pay just a sort of "handling fee" ontop of his pro-price, and You'd still be a lot cheaper than buying Yourself. This is what I sometimes did in small times to enlarge my turnover with certain retailers, supporting my pro-conditions this way. "From factory" is often a problem of sheer bulk ... presumably You wouldn't need a whole articulated lorry full of primer, (almost) no matter what price You'll bargain, would You? Am 27.07.2012 um 00:56 schrieb martin demers: > Mark, > > I think you have to buy from factory to get better price > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:17:56 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin: > > I bought some Hempel bottom paint in a Richmond, BC Cloverdale paint store > > about 6 years ago--I think they stopped carrying it--anyway I liked the > > paint and it has held up well. That's a good price--I got it on sale but was > > still pricey. Will put it on the new boat if I can find it at a good > > price--MarkH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 28646|28532|2012-07-27 04:31:17|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|hempadur mastic 45880 probably not listed in the pleasure boat section but industrial section(commercial boats) they also offer antifouling; hempel olympic hi-76600 ,it is an ablative antifouling, it is the only one legal in Canada, they are not allowed to import the other ones they make Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 05:29:07 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer Martin, could you tell us what exact epoxy's/part number you are talking about? There is a bunch of products there... Hempel's USA site is terrible - hard to find information. http://www.hempel.us Choose "Marine" tab. Follow the links... There is no complete recommendation what to use. Blah... There is Epoxy Radagram tool which allows to find products, but some links are broken. I found only one shop primer there for marine use (definitely not for DIY): HEMPEL'S SHOPPRIMER ZS 15890 is a two-component, solvent-borne zinc ethyl silicate shopprimer, designed for automatic spray application. It looks like Europe has much more choices... There is some self-priming coal tar epoxy, but I could not find exact part #. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > > they have offices in B.C. > > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > > > Martin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28647|28532|2012-07-27 04:33:30|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|as for primer they have Hempadur zinc 17360 wich I think is more expensive than the epoxy Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 05:29:07 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer Martin, could you tell us what exact epoxy's/part number you are talking about? There is a bunch of products there... Hempel's USA site is terrible - hard to find information. http://www.hempel.us Choose "Marine" tab. Follow the links... There is no complete recommendation what to use. Blah... There is Epoxy Radagram tool which allows to find products, but some links are broken. I found only one shop primer there for marine use (definitely not for DIY): HEMPEL'S SHOPPRIMER ZS 15890 is a two-component, solvent-borne zinc ethyl silicate shopprimer, designed for automatic spray application. It looks like Europe has much more choices... There is some self-priming coal tar epoxy, but I could not find exact part #. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > > they have offices in B.C. > > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > > > Martin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28648|28532|2012-07-27 11:40:43|Mark Hamill|Re: Zinc primer|Martin: So are you saying you have to be in Denmark then to buy from factory--obviously I'm guessing? MarkH/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "martin demers" To: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 3:56 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > Mark, > > I think you have to buy from factory to get better price > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:17:56 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin: > > I bought some Hempel bottom paint in a Richmond, BC Cloverdale paint store > > about 6 years ago--I think they stopped carrying it--anyway I liked the > > paint and it has held up well. That's a good price--I got it on sale but > was > > still pricey. Will put it on the new boat if I can find it at a good > > price--MarkH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 28649|28532|2012-07-27 12:30:11|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|Mark, No, they have an office in Montreal and at least another one in Vancouver from who you can buy directly Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 08:41:00 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer Martin: So are you saying you have to be in Denmark then to buy from factory--obviously I'm guessing? MarkH/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "martin demers" To: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 3:56 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > Mark, > > I think you have to buy from factory to get better price > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:17:56 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin: > > I bought some Hempel bottom paint in a Richmond, BC Cloverdale paint store > > about 6 years ago--I think they stopped carrying it--anyway I liked the > > paint and it has held up well. That's a good price--I got it on sale but > was > > still pricey. Will put it on the new boat if I can find it at a good > > price--MarkH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28650|28532|2012-07-27 12:31:37|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|If you want the Danish girl, then you have no choice to go to Denmark! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 08:41:00 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer Martin: So are you saying you have to be in Denmark then to buy from factory--obviously I'm guessing? MarkH/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "martin demers" To: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 3:56 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > Mark, > > I think you have to buy from factory to get better price > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:17:56 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin: > > I bought some Hempel bottom paint in a Richmond, BC Cloverdale paint store > > about 6 years ago--I think they stopped carrying it--anyway I liked the > > paint and it has held up well. That's a good price--I got it on sale but > was > > still pricey. Will put it on the new boat if I can find it at a good > > price--MarkH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28651|28532|2012-07-27 14:59:51|brentswain38|Re: Zinc primer|I haven't been all that impressed with ablative antifouling. They make harder stuff for offshore and continuous movement, which doesn't work so well when you stop, and softer, which works for weekend cruising,but washes of quickly when you put a lot of miles on. I have been using Epoxycop with good results. I'm just doing an experiment, with epoxy paint over it to see if it sticks well enough. That would make touching up the bare spots, to stop copper paint contact with bare steel, much easier. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > hempadur mastic 45880 > probably not listed in the pleasure boat section but industrial section(commercial boats) > they also offer antifouling; hempel olympic hi-76600 ,it is an ablative antifouling, it is the only one legal in Canada, they are not allowed to import the other ones they make > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 05:29:07 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, could you tell us what exact epoxy's/part number you are talking about? There is a bunch of products there... Hempel's USA site is terrible - hard to find information. > > > > http://www.hempel.us > > > > Choose "Marine" tab. Follow the links... There is no complete recommendation what to use. Blah... There is Epoxy Radagram tool which allows to find products, but some links are broken. > > > > I found only one shop primer there for marine use (definitely not for DIY): > > > > HEMPEL'S SHOPPRIMER ZS 15890 is a two-component, solvent-borne zinc ethyl silicate shopprimer, designed for automatic spray application. > > > > It looks like Europe has much more choices... > > > > There is some self-priming coal tar epoxy, but I could not find exact part #. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > > > > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > > > > they have offices in B.C. > > > > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28652|28532|2012-07-27 15:04:48|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|Brent, does epoxycop sticks to any kind of paint weither coaltar or regular epoxy? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 18:59:49 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer I haven't been all that impressed with ablative antifouling. They make harder stuff for offshore and continuous movement, which doesn't work so well when you stop, and softer, which works for weekend cruising,but washes of quickly when you put a lot of miles on. I have been using Epoxycop with good results. I'm just doing an experiment, with epoxy paint over it to see if it sticks well enough. That would make touching up the bare spots, to stop copper paint contact with bare steel, much easier. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > hempadur mastic 45880 > probably not listed in the pleasure boat section but industrial section(commercial boats) > they also offer antifouling; hempel olympic hi-76600 ,it is an ablative antifouling, it is the only one legal in Canada, they are not allowed to import the other ones they make > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 05:29:07 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, could you tell us what exact epoxy's/part number you are talking about? There is a bunch of products there... Hempel's USA site is terrible - hard to find information. > > > > http://www.hempel.us > > > > Choose "Marine" tab. Follow the links... There is no complete recommendation what to use. Blah... There is Epoxy Radagram tool which allows to find products, but some links are broken. > > > > I found only one shop primer there for marine use (definitely not for DIY): > > > > HEMPEL'S SHOPPRIMER ZS 15890 is a two-component, solvent-borne zinc ethyl silicate shopprimer, designed for automatic spray application. > > > > It looks like Europe has much more choices... > > > > There is some self-priming coal tar epoxy, but I could not find exact part #. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > > > > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > > > > they have offices in B.C. > > > > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28653|28532|2012-07-27 15:06:51|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|Brent, I also meant will it stick to paint from a different brand manufacturer without bad reaction? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 18:59:49 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer I haven't been all that impressed with ablative antifouling. They make harder stuff for offshore and continuous movement, which doesn't work so well when you stop, and softer, which works for weekend cruising,but washes of quickly when you put a lot of miles on. I have been using Epoxycop with good results. I'm just doing an experiment, with epoxy paint over it to see if it sticks well enough. That would make touching up the bare spots, to stop copper paint contact with bare steel, much easier. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > hempadur mastic 45880 > probably not listed in the pleasure boat section but industrial section(commercial boats) > they also offer antifouling; hempel olympic hi-76600 ,it is an ablative antifouling, it is the only one legal in Canada, they are not allowed to import the other ones they make > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 05:29:07 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, could you tell us what exact epoxy's/part number you are talking about? There is a bunch of products there... Hempel's USA site is terrible - hard to find information. > > > > http://www.hempel.us > > > > Choose "Marine" tab. Follow the links... There is no complete recommendation what to use. Blah... There is Epoxy Radagram tool which allows to find products, but some links are broken. > > > > I found only one shop primer there for marine use (definitely not for DIY): > > > > HEMPEL'S SHOPPRIMER ZS 15890 is a two-component, solvent-borne zinc ethyl silicate shopprimer, designed for automatic spray application. > > > > It looks like Europe has much more choices... > > > > There is some self-priming coal tar epoxy, but I could not find exact part #. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > > > > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > > > > they have offices in B.C. > > > > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28654|28532|2012-07-27 16:04:10|Mark Hamill|Re: Zinc primer|I tried the original CopperEpoxy from West before they sold it to System 3 (??) and used regular bottom paint over top of it with no problem. Actually I have a can of the powdered copper you add to epoxy somewhere in this mess. Because it is so thick you have to knock down the high spots somehow or the resullting surface will be quite rough. I think i waited til it started to go off and then rubbed with a hard roller. This was over 18 years ago so cannot remember for sure.MartkH ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 11:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer I haven't been all that impressed with ablative antifouling. They make harder stuff for offshore and continuous movement, which doesn't work so well when you stop, and softer, which works for weekend cruising,but washes of quickly when you put a lot of miles on. I have been using Epoxycop with good results. I'm just doing an experiment, with epoxy paint over it to see if it sticks well enough. That would make touching up the bare spots, to stop copper paint contact with bare steel, much easier. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > hempadur mastic 45880 > probably not listed in the pleasure boat section but industrial section(commercial boats) > they also offer antifouling; hempel olympic hi-76600 ,it is an ablative antifouling, it is the only one legal in Canada, they are not allowed to import the other ones they make > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 05:29:07 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, could you tell us what exact epoxy's/part number you are talking about? There is a bunch of products there... Hempel's USA site is terrible - hard to find information. > > > > http://www.hempel.us > > > > Choose "Marine" tab. Follow the links... There is no complete recommendation what to use. Blah... There is Epoxy Radagram tool which allows to find products, but some links are broken. > > > > I found only one shop primer there for marine use (definitely not for DIY): > > > > HEMPEL'S SHOPPRIMER ZS 15890 is a two-component, solvent-borne zinc ethyl silicate shopprimer, designed for automatic spray application. > > > > It looks like Europe has much more choices... > > > > There is some self-priming coal tar epoxy, but I could not find exact part #. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > > > > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > > > > they have offices in B.C. > > > > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28655|28655|2012-07-27 18:34:08|Mark Hamill|School Buses off the Coast|This is a short note in the online magazine Latitude 38 about Tsunami debris. MarkH School Buses off the Coast July 27, 2012 - Pacific Ocean School buses? That's right. While waiting for a friend pick us up some shaft bearings at an industrial supply house in San Diego last week, we struck up a conversation with a guy who was getting parts to try to get his refrigeration system going again on his 70-ft commercial fishing boat so he could head up to Oregon and Washington. He said that friends told him he wasn't missing much up there because the fishing was slow, but that there was a lot of debris in the water. Debris from the Japanese tsunami that included some large items - including at least one school bus. His fishermen friends told him that there was so much debris that they were limiting their fishing and movements at night. But fishing boats aren't the only commercial vessels out on the water. There are U.S. salvage boats scouring the North Pacific for stuff they hope to be more valuable than fish. So be careful out there. - latitude / richard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28656|28532|2012-07-28 11:11:57|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|Thanks Martin! Self priming epoxy (see below)??? There is a lot of self-priming epoxies with different part numbers if you search Hempel website. Price converted from EUR to USD is about $75-130 per Gallon ;( I could not find any price information (online) in US so far - need to call to verify the price. Info from Hempel's website: HEMPADUR MASTIC 45880/45881 is a two-component polyamide adduct cured, high solids, high build epoxy paint. It forms a hard and tough coating, has good wetting properties and low temperature curing. Area of use As a selfprimed, surface tolerant paint system or as an intermediate or finishing coat in heavy duty paint systems where low VOC and high film build are required. Multipurpose coating as per specification for maintenance and minor repairs in immersed areas including ballast tanks and underwater hull specifically in thoese cases where a need for few products outweighs more specialised coatings. Segments Marine, Protective, Yacht --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > hempadur mastic 45880 > probably not listed in the pleasure boat section but industrial section(commercial boats) > they also offer antifouling; hempel olympic hi-76600 ,it is an ablative antifouling, it is the only one legal in Canada, they are not allowed to import the other ones they make > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 05:29:07 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > Martin, could you tell us what exact epoxy's/part number you are talking about? There is a bunch of products there... Hempel's USA site is terrible - hard to find information. > > > > http://www.hempel.us | 28657|28532|2012-07-28 11:54:15|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|Hempel's primers/universal marine coating from US website: Hempadur Uniq 47741/3 (universal primer) Hempadur Quattro 17634 (universal one-for-all coating)| 28658|28610|2012-07-28 18:27:17|Tom Pee|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care of your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away from doctors, stay away  from almost any man made materials- hard to do but they all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, grinding, blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to a degree.    At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which BTW is not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other end you have imaginary creations called states, government, associations, clubs, etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself to perform certain duties you have given up certain liberties, sometimes they conive you into believing free health care is in your interest, sometimes you agree, sometimes it the barrel of the gun; either way you lost freedom and are forced to give up rights and perform those duties thats the other end of the scale it then its just a matter of degree. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept   No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > Brent, the first thing I thought after i wrote that was the word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did relate too about 100 years ago.  Need to be careful using  such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown communism, then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel". >   > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > >   > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.  They are even more liberal than even the US.  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > >   > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28659|28610|2012-07-28 18:30:55|Maxime Camirand|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|i doubt the computer you're using to write to the group would have arisen in your libertarian, anarchist utopia. But anyway, weren't we talking about boats? On 27 July 2012 16:51, Tom Pee wrote: > ** > > > You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care of > your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away from > doctors, stay away from almost any man made materials- hard to do but they > all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, grinding, > blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to a degree. > > At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which BTW is > not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other end you > have imaginary creations called states, government, associations, clubs, > etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself to perform certain duties > you have given up certain liberties, sometimes they conive you into > believing free health care is in your interest, sometimes you agree, > sometimes it the barrel of the gun; either way you lost freedom and are > forced to give up rights and perform those duties thats the other end of > the scale it then its just a matter of degree. > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the > govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is > definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance > companies. > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, > for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, > if need be). > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are > polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the > half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which > China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of > Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian > provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, > for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, > insurance company extortionists. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee > wrote: > > > > Brent, the first thing I thought after� i wrote that� was the word > liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did > relate too about� 100 years ago.� Need to be careful using� such words > today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick > it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, > another notch up and you got full blown communism,� then as Mao said "law > is made at the end of a barrel". > > � > > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught > in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > � > > > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" > meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, > thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. > Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything > but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing > conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are > trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and > trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do > that.��� They are even more liberal than even the US.��� BTW, the queen > still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > ��� > > > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative > government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and > ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, > sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to > China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle > east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, > where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean > there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, > Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get > rid of them. . > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to > do > > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone > cleans a > > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the > drain? > > > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will > have....or > > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of > the > > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed > it, > > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28660|28610|2012-07-28 18:43:00|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Who builds the roads you dive on? The government. Private highways would mean a toll gate every few miles, a huge pain in the ass. They could hold you to ransom and charge whatever they pleased. Who do you call when some pervert fondles your daughter or kidnaps her. A private rent a cop? No the government. Who do you call when your house is on fire? Someone who can refuse to help you til you cough up the cash, or who can pout a lien on everything you own for services rendered? So much for complete anarchy. The guy with the most guns gets to help himself to whatever he wants. That is complete anarchy. Staying healthy is no guarantee against cancer, a broken leg or worse. Seeing how kids are crippled for life in the US if their parents cant cough up the money , or how 40% of the homeless got there for a lack of as govt health care system, I think you guys are the ones who are brainwashed. They spent huge amounts of money here to brainwash us into believing that public health care is a bad thing. Some actually were suckered into believing it , at first. Now only the parasites and super gullible would still believe that! I just talked to a Devoe Dealer who told me that paint companies are scrambling to find a replacement for oil based paints. The ban applies to all oil based paints, including Marine enamel. So, obviously ,the Corp$ervatives brought in the ban before even bothering to ask if there were alternatives, and any alternatives , if and when they arrive, will be triple the price of oil based enamels. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care of your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away from doctors, stay away  from almost any man made materials- hard to do but they all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, grinding, blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to a degree.  >   > At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which BTW is not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other end you have imaginary creations called states, government, associations, clubs, etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself to perform certain duties you have given up certain liberties, sometimes they conive you into believing free health care is in your interest, sometimes you agree, sometimes it the barrel of the gun; either way you lost freedom and are forced to give up rights and perform those duties thats the other end of the scale it then its just a matter of degree. > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > >   > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > Brent, the first thing I thought after i wrote that was the word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did relate too about 100 years ago.  Need to be careful using  such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown communism, then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel". > >   > > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > >   > > > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.  They are even more liberal than even the US.  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28661|28532|2012-07-28 18:44:19|brentswain38|Re: Zinc primer|Just trying it out. Ask me again, in a week or two. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > does epoxycop sticks to any kind of paint weither coaltar or regular epoxy? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 18:59:49 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I haven't been all that impressed with ablative antifouling. They make harder stuff for offshore and continuous movement, which doesn't work so well when you stop, and softer, which works for weekend cruising,but washes of quickly when you put a lot of miles on. > > I have been using Epoxycop with good results. I'm just doing an experiment, with epoxy paint over it to see if it sticks well enough. That would make touching up the bare spots, to stop copper paint contact with bare steel, much easier. . > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > hempadur mastic 45880 > > > probably not listed in the pleasure boat section but industrial section(commercial boats) > > > they also offer antifouling; hempel olympic hi-76600 ,it is an ablative antifouling, it is the only one legal in Canada, they are not allowed to import the other ones they make > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: williswildest@ > > > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 05:29:07 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, could you tell us what exact epoxy's/part number you are talking about? There is a bunch of products there... Hempel's USA site is terrible - hard to find information. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hempel.us > > > > > > > > > > > > Choose "Marine" tab. Follow the links... There is no complete recommendation what to use. Blah... There is Epoxy Radagram tool which allows to find products, but some links are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > I found only one shop primer there for marine use (definitely not for DIY): > > > > > > > > > > > > HEMPEL'S SHOPPRIMER ZS 15890 is a two-component, solvent-borne zinc ethyl silicate shopprimer, designed for automatic spray application. > > > > > > > > > > > > It looks like Europe has much more choices... > > > > > > > > > > > > There is some self-priming coal tar epoxy, but I could not find exact part #. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > > > > > > > > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > > > > > > > > they have offices in B.C. > > > > > > > > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28662|28610|2012-07-28 18:58:49|M.J. Malone|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|I believe anarchy would backfire on the (violent/irritating) anarchists. The salt of the earth would prune the thorns and get back to quiet, cooperative, neighbourly ways which would again evolve into a government. The current freedoms and protections provided by the government and most people's belief that it is better than anarchy is all that allows would-be anarchist to continue being loud and annoying. There are places in the world that are a virtual anarchy. Those believing so strongly in the cause should visit and stay a while. If they like it, they can stay. If they don't they can come back, officially cured. They will probably find what they really want is tax-accountability in a low taxation area. On that there would at least be a basis for discussion. Matt brentswain38 wrote: Who builds the roads you dive on? The government. Private highways would mean a toll gate every few miles, a huge pain in the ass. They could hold you to ransom and charge whatever they pleased. Who do you call when some pervert fondles your daughter or kidnaps her. A private rent a cop? No the government. Who do you call when your house is on fire? Someone who can refuse to help you til you cough up the cash, or who can pout a lien on everything you own for services rendered? So much for complete anarchy. The guy with the most guns gets to help himself to whatever he wants. That is complete anarchy. Staying healthy is no guarantee against cancer, a broken leg or worse. Seeing how kids are crippled for life in the US if their parents cant cough up the money , or how 40% of the homeless got there for a lack of as govt health care system, I think you guys are the ones who are brainwashed. They spent huge amounts of money here to brainwash us into believing that public health care is a bad thing. Some actually were suckered into believing it , at first. Now only the parasites and super gullible would still believe that! I just talked to a Devoe Dealer who told me that paint companies are scrambling to find a replacement for oil based paints. The ban applies to all oil based paints, including Marine enamel. So, obviously ,the Corp$ervatives brought in the ban before even bothering to ask if there were alternatives, and any alternatives , if and when they arrive, will be triple the price of oil based enamels. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care of your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away from doctors, stay away from almost any man made materials- hard to do but they all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, grinding, blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to a degree. >  > At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which BTW is not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other end you have imaginary creations called states, government, associations, clubs, etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself to perform certain duties you have given up certain liberties, sometimes they conive you into believing free health care is in your interest, sometimes you agree, sometimes it the barrel of the gun; either way you lost freedom and are forced to give up rights and perform those duties thats the other end of the scale it then its just a matter of degree. > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > >  > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > Brent, the first thing I thought after i wrote that was the word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did relate too about 100 years ago. Need to be careful using such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown communism, then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel". > >  > > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > >  > > > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that. They are even more liberal than even the US. BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28663|28610|2012-07-28 19:23:34|Chris Salayka|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|From Market Liberty O   The word anarchy is almost always misused!!!! By definition Anarchy means no government. It means the rejection the state and all political institutions of control. This would include Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, Monarchy, Democracy and even a Republic. I am personally a Market Anarchist Agorist. To find out more go to www.agorist.info. That's a pretty good website to get started on the form of Anarchism I am familiar with. However if you aren't interested I would strong suggest that you get interested. Although Anarchy is perceived to be Chaos and lawlessness under Market Anarchy Polycentric law would replace all constitutional structures that dominates most of the United States. The current structures of today I no less different from the Monarchies that dominated Europe before the Enlightenment. They still prevent freedom, under the guise that they are defending it. To understand why this is, I will give you a reason. Governments are monopolies on the use of force that is they use violence, theft and slavery to control their claimed territories. In reality the individuals within governments are criminals they use all the methods of armed gangs, and thugs, but legitimize their actions by calling it other things. They call theft taxes, they call mass murder war, they call slavery conscription and they propaganda playing politics, but these are just the same things on a larger scale. Which is why I became an Anarchist, I saw that Government was nothing less than a criminal institution held together by invalid and irrational beliefs.   Chris ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 3:42:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept   Who builds the roads you dive on? The government. Private highways would mean a toll gate every few miles, a huge pain in the ass. They could hold you to ransom and charge whatever they pleased. Who do you call when some pervert fondles your daughter or kidnaps her. A private rent a cop? No the government. Who do you call when your house is on fire? Someone who can refuse to help you til you cough up the cash, or who can pout a lien on everything you own for services rendered? So much for complete anarchy. The guy with the most guns gets to help himself to whatever he wants. That is complete anarchy. Staying healthy is no guarantee against cancer, a broken leg or worse. Seeing how kids are crippled for life in the US if their parents cant cough up the money , or how 40% of the homeless got there for a lack of as govt health care system, I think you guys are the ones who are brainwashed. They spent huge amounts of money here to brainwash us into believing that public health care is a bad thing. Some actually were suckered into believing it , at first. Now only the parasites and super gullible would still believe that! I just talked to a Devoe Dealer who told me that paint companies are scrambling to find a replacement for oil based paints. The ban applies to all oil based paints, including Marine enamel. So, obviously ,the Corp$ervatives brought in the ban before even bothering to ask if there were alternatives, and any alternatives , if and when they arrive, will be triple the price of oil based enamels. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care of your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away from doctors, stay away  from almost any man made materials- hard to do but they all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, grinding, blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to a degree.  >   > At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which BTW is not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other end you have imaginary creations called states, government, associations, clubs, etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself to perform certain duties you have given up certain liberties, sometimes they conive you into believing free health care is in your interest, sometimes you agree, sometimes it the barrel of the gun; either way you lost freedom and are forced to give up rights and perform those duties thats the other end of the scale it then its just a matter of degree. > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > >   > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > Brent, the first thing I thought after i wrote that was the word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did relate too about 100 years ago.  Need to be careful using  such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown communism, then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel". > >   > > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > >   > > > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.  They are even more liberal than even the US.  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28664|28610|2012-07-28 19:24:10|Chris Salayka|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Boats are anarchists!!   Chris ________________________________ From: Maxime Camirand To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 3:30:34 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept i doubt the computer you're using to write to the group would have arisen in your libertarian, anarchist utopia. But anyway, weren't we talking about boats? On 27 July 2012 16:51, Tom Pee wrote: > ** > > > You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care of > your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away from > doctors, stay away  from almost any man made materials- hard to do but they > all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, grinding, > blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to a degree. > > At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which BTW is > not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other end you > have imaginary creations called states, government, associations, clubs, > etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself to perform certain duties > you have given up certain liberties, sometimes they conive you into > believing free health care is in your interest, sometimes you agree, > sometimes it the barrel of the gun; either way you lost freedom and are > forced to give up rights and perform those duties thats the other end of > the scale it then its just a matter of degree. > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the > govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is > definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance > companies. > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, > for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, > if need be). > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are > polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the > half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which > China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of > Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian > provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, > for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, > insurance company extortionists. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee > wrote: > > > > Brent, the first thing I thought afterﾂ i wrote thatﾂ was the word > liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did > relate too aboutﾂ 100 years ago.ﾂ  Need to be careful usingﾂ  such words > today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick > it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, > another notch up and you got full blown communism,ﾂ then as Mao said "law > is made at the end of a barrel". > > ﾂ > > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught > in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > ﾂ > > > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" > meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, > thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. > Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything > but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing > conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are > trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and > trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do > that.ﾃつ  They are even more liberal than even the US.ﾃつ  BTW, the queen > still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > ﾃつ > > > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative > government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and > ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, > sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to > China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle > east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, > where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean > there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, > Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get > rid of them. . > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to > do > > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone > cleans a > > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the > drain? > > > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will > have....or > > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of > the > > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed > it, > > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28665|28610|2012-07-28 19:44:14|Barney Treadway|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|There are lots of places in the world where you can live in libertarian utopia. Somalia, Sudan and Yemen all have great sunshiny climates and no big bad government to get in your way. Our favorite knucklehead Rush Limbaugh has said he's thinking of moving to Costa Rica to escape our feeble attempt at health care reform. No one told him they have socialized medicine there! On 7/28/2012 4:42 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > Who builds the roads you dive on? The government. Private highways > would mean a toll gate every few miles, a huge pain in the ass. They > could hold you to ransom and charge whatever they pleased. > Who do you call when some pervert fondles your daughter or kidnaps > her. A private rent a cop? No the government. Who do you call when > your house is on fire? Someone who can refuse to help you til you > cough up the cash, or who can pout a lien on everything you own for > services rendered? So much for complete anarchy. The guy with the most > guns gets to help himself to whatever he wants. That is complete anarchy. > Staying healthy is no guarantee against cancer, a broken leg or worse. > Seeing how kids are crippled for life in the US if their parents cant > cough up the money , or how 40% of the homeless got there for a lack > of as govt health care system, I think you guys are the ones who are > brainwashed. > They spent huge amounts of money here to brainwash us into believing > that public health care is a bad thing. Some actually were suckered > into believing it , at first. Now only the parasites and super > gullible would still believe that! > > I just talked to a Devoe Dealer who told me that paint companies are > scrambling to find a replacement for oil based paints. The ban applies > to all oil based paints, including Marine enamel. > So, obviously ,the Corp$ervatives brought in the ban before even > bothering to ask if there were alternatives, and any alternatives , if > and when they arrive, will be triple the price of oil based enamels. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Tom Pee wrote: > > > > You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care > of your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away > from doctors, stay away from almost any man made materials- hard to > do but they all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, > grinding, blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to > a degree. > >  > > At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which > BTW is not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other > end you have imaginary creations called states, government, > associations, clubs, etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself > to perform certain duties you have given up certain liberties, > sometimes they conive you into believing free health care is in your > interest, sometimes you agree, sometimes it the barrel of the gun; > either way you lost freedom and are forced to give up rights and > perform those duties thats the other end of the scale it then its just > a matter of degree. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > >  > > > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the > govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is > definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance > companies. > > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the > government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of > the corporations, if need be). > > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. > They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they > become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The > quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate > fascism is a good example. > > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite > of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian > provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public > medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the > corporate, insurance company extortionists. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > Brent, the first thing I thought afterÃ, i wrote thatÃ, was the > word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which > it did relate too aboutÃ, 100 years ago.Ã, Need to be careful > usingÃ, such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls > socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what > you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown > communism,Ã, then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel". > > > Ã, > > > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was > taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > Ã, > > > > > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" > meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", > and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises > there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is > often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of > right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as > right wingers.. > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee > wrote: > > > > > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are > trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it > and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even > do that.ÃfâEURs(Ã, They are even more liberal than even the > US.ÃfâEURs(Ã, BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃfâEURs(Ã, > > > > > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same > Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen > pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of > the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, > so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern > Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget > Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in > the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, > Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will > definitly get rid of them. . > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government > needs to do > > > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time > someone cleans a > > > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going > down the drain? > > > > > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will > have....or > > > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and > security of the > > > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he > confirmed it, > > > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5156 - Release Date: 07/26/12 > -- Barney Treadway www.ecomshare.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28666|28532|2012-07-29 09:34:49|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|they told me quattro is superior to mastic but is only available in two colors Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:54:12 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer Hempel's primers/universal marine coating from US website: Hempadur Uniq 47741/3 (universal primer) Hempadur Quattro 17634 (universal one-for-all coating) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28667|28610|2012-07-29 13:10:49|ursus_222|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Hello Interesting topic, I was just lent a book called Fascism and the Right in Europe 1919-45, I look forward to reading it but for now I am busy getting rid of rust and replacing my picture windows and portholes with clear lexan, I have a few questions about paint. I am using Dulux pre prime on the Rust I can't remove properly, Bar Rust 235 Epoxy and Dev stain 379 for the top coat, the Rep says 24 hours between coats and the can says 5 hours on the Epoxy so I'm wondering what you guys think? I like the 5 hours because that would get me out Sailing a couple days sooner. I have a few rolls of Butyl so I'm wondering whats recommended for Lexan, should I stick with Butyl? I'm hoping to get a couple years out of this Boat until I decide whether to do a refit or build another hull and transfer everything over thats worth the effort, after seeing the extent of the rust so far I am leaning towards building. I was told the Dulux DEVOE paints are AKZO NOBEL. Thanks Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. > | 28669|28610|2012-07-29 14:14:12|Paul Cotter|BS 26 Skeg|Hi Folks- Getting back to my project after a few years of interruption. My older 26 plans don't have drawings for the skeg. Would anyone be willing to scan and post the skeg drawings/measurements. I would be most appreciative. Thanks Paul > RECENT ACTIVITY: New Members 4 > Visit Your Group > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest � Unsubscribe � Terms of Use > . > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28670|28610|2012-07-29 16:13:31|scott|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Brent, total red herring.... The government doesn't build roads they pay private companies to build roads. Guess what the government uses to pay those companies.. oh... thats right.. the money they took from you in taxes. Every road you drive on that is a public road is a toll road in one way or another. You just don't pay it as you get on and off that road. Instead they take it out of the money you pay for fuel, money out of your pay check, the sales taxes you pay to purchase products. At least be intellectually honest about it. I find your views to be oddly conflicted. On the one hand you bash both the US and your government for infringing on your/our rights and freedoms, then on the other hand you bash the people who actually seem to hold many of the same views you hold and prefer less intrusive government but they just happen to live in the US. Or could it just be that you are for all the free things you personally can get from the government but don't want to be personally responsible paying for. In listening to you over the years you are all about living outside the system and being very sufficient on the one hand. On the other hand I have heard you say multiple times that you can't wait till retirement age so you can draw your government guaranteed income then. An income to which I don't see you having contributed taxes over the course of your life as you have been out sailing on a cash work basis on the fringe of society. Also your desire for and belief in that you are owed health care paid for by that same system that you haven't really contributed to either. Now I realize this sounds harsh. In fact I in many ways sympathize with some of your views. Though I work and pay taxes I trend more to the fringe philosophy of less government and more freedom/anarchy within reason. My point is that you are very harsh in your attitude toward others on certain subjects but don't seem to be intellectually honest yourself about it. I respect the hell out of your designs and contributions in building and outfitting boats cheaply and effectively. Not so much when your on a crazy political rant that you haven't really thought through or are only picking talking points out of just to support your personal bias. Respectfully to one hell of a boat builder. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Who builds the roads you dive on? The government. Private highways would mean a toll gate every few miles, a huge pain in the ass. They could hold you to ransom and charge whatever they pleased. > Who do you call when some pervert fondles your daughter or kidnaps her. A private rent a cop? No the government. Who do you call when your house is on fire? Someone who can refuse to help you til you cough up the cash, or who can pout a lien on everything you own for services rendered? So much for complete anarchy. The guy with the most guns gets to help himself to whatever he wants. That is complete anarchy. | 28671|28532|2012-07-29 16:48:30|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|I have noticed as well that good marine paint (for ship hull) comes only in limited colors (black, red, gray). It does not make any difference below waterline. For above waterline, I bet you can find compatible paint (in light colors like white) from the same manufacturer to put it over universal paint/primer. So far, I see that in US, available Hempel paints are as expensive as Wasser paints... About $100 per gallon (+/-)... Good marine paint comes with the price ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > they told me quattro is superior to mastic but is only available in two colors > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:54:12 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > Hempel's primers/universal marine coating from US website: > > > > Hempadur Uniq 47741/3 (universal primer) > > > > Hempadur Quattro 17634 (universal one-for-all coating) > | 28672|28610|2012-07-29 17:46:42|Paul Wilson|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|You can talk politics and say this and that and blame one group or another but nobody can tell me where the money is going to come to fund all these social programs. Politicians are playing a game and just trying to extend and pretend and hoping the sheeple don't catch on. "Every election is a sort of advance auction of stolen goods." H.L. Mencken The idea that the baby boomers have paid enough in to society and are now going to reap the rewards of all their hard work is just BS. The money has already been spent and the demographics make it impossible. A six year old with a calculator can quickly figure out that it is all a Ponzi Scheme and that future growth isn't going to fund all the promises and obligations. Love her or hate her, Margaret Thatcher was right when she said, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" Anyway, democracy is four coyotes and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Well the lamb has already been eaten. People are only now starting to realize. I am much too independent to think that the government will give me anything in the future other than the bare necessities like public infrastructure and utilities funded by increasing taxes and fees. As for a pension, forget it..... Think happy thoughts.... Cheers, Paul| 28673|28610|2012-07-30 09:17:27|Matt Malone|ursus_222's Q about specific paint and Butyl -- Was: Oil paint will |I have replaced windows with lexan. I laid the lexan on the outside of the doghouse, bolted through, sealing with bathroom / outdoor silicon. Shortly afterward, there was comment on here never to use silicon as the silicon oil likes to absorb into fibreglass. I suspect that is not a problem on steel. I know silicon works nicely otherwise. I painted my doghouse white, then used white silicon, the silicon visually disappears. I used a 2cm+ lap, and, the bolts were mainly to hold it in place until the silicon hardened, and afterward serve as chicken bolts. Chicken bolts are used by those afraid of peel failure of otherwise really strong adhesive bonds. What is the full name of "rolls of Butyl". Can you give a link to the product ? I have more windows to do and, I would prefer to avoid silicon this time. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ursus_222@... Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 17:10:47 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept Hello Interesting topic, I was just lent a book called Fascism and the Right in Europe 1919-45, I look forward to reading it but for now I am busy getting rid of rust and replacing my picture windows and portholes with clear lexan, I have a few questions about paint. I am using Dulux pre prime on the Rust I can't remove properly, Bar Rust 235 Epoxy and Dev stain 379 for the top coat, the Rep says 24 hours between coats and the can says 5 hours on the Epoxy so I'm wondering what you guys think? I like the 5 hours because that would get me out Sailing a couple days sooner. I have a few rolls of Butyl so I'm wondering whats recommended for Lexan, should I stick with Butyl? I'm hoping to get a couple years out of this Boat until I decide whether to do a refit or build another hull and transfer everything over thats worth the effort, after seeing the extent of the rust so far I am leaning towards building. I was told the Dulux DEVOE paints are AKZO NOBEL. Thanks Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28674|28610|2012-07-30 10:06:08|Matt Malone|Pension / Government arguments WAS: Oil paint will be BANNED as of S|Scott there are two tiers of pension in Canada. One is guaranteed, the other is proportional to years employed / worked. Women who stayed at home to raise children routinely have to prove that have had and raised children to qualify for a full pension. Self-employed people, like I suspect Brent is, may well have trouble collecting part of that pension. Many self-employed people continue to work, never really retire, because of this. Though the payment is smaller than an all-their-life worker may receive, a self-employed person generally does not worry so much about government benefits, it is just a nice bonus, easing the pressure to work as hard. There are many people in parts of the country who never worked more than the statutory minimum weeks per year to qualify for unemployment benefits. There are entire provinces in Canada whose entire existent was at some time, if not currently, tied to a relatively short fishing season, and government benefits. What benefits they get when they retire, I am not certain, but, they knew the system going in, as did the rest of us, as did Brent. He has paid what he has paid and will get what he gets. We could all have moved to Australia in our highly earning, highly taxed 20s if we thought the Canadian system was bad. There are lots of self-employed people who have made the choice not to push themselves, not have a boss, and have an easier life in some respects. Brent is by no means unique. It is also widely known that many self-employed people routinely claim as business expenses things that are not, to reduce their tax burden, or pay a salary to their spouse or even their minor children who lack the capacity to help the business in any way, again as a tax dodge. Or claim mileage for driving from their home to their business location, even collect other people's parking receipts to submit as a business expense of their own, etc. There are many more tax dodges that some self-employed participate in. I doubt that is much different in many countries. No matter what magnifying glass one applies to Brent, no matter what he chooses to do, you will find many many more doing the same or "worse", however you might define that, and simply, the system seems to allow it, and again, we all knew this was how it worked in our 20s, and decided to stay. I see no point in entering into the discussion now when most of us are closer to retirement age than our 20s. We might all wish for things to work better or differently. We might wish that the government of the day would not funnel a large fraction of our collective taxes to their friends who helped them get elected (via non-tendered contracts etc), but that seems to be the democracy we have allowed to exist. If there were somewhere I would like to see stronger penalties, it would be for those who seek authority, and then abuse it. This includes everyone from school teachers to elected officials. And I consider redirecting tax money to your friends as a serious abuse. The prospect of 20 years in jail will cause only two types of people to seek positions of authority -- those who are honest and principled, and those who are psychopaths who have no regard for others and who believe they will never get caught. You might ask how that is different from what we have now, and I say, more of the psychopaths would be in jail, making room for more of them in positions of authority, so we can put them in jail too, and that is a good thing. Then we can deal more harshly with those who cheat the tax system, or passive-aggressively resist the tax system, or fail to meet someone else's standard of holding up their end of the social contract. Saying lets cancel the entire system certainly does not seemed to have served Yemen, or Malawi, or Somali very well, and I do not think it would serve us very well either. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: audeojude@... Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 20:13:28 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept Brent, total red herring.... The government doesn't build roads they pay private companies to build roads. Guess what the government uses to pay those companies.. oh... thats right.. the money they took from you in taxes. Every road you drive on that is a public road is a toll road in one way or another. You just don't pay it as you get on and off that road. Instead they take it out of the money you pay for fuel, money out of your pay check, the sales taxes you pay to purchase products. At least be intellectually honest about it. I find your views to be oddly conflicted. On the one hand you bash both the US and your government for infringing on your/our rights and freedoms, then on the other hand you bash the people who actually seem to hold many of the same views you hold and prefer less intrusive government but they just happen to live in the US. Or could it just be that you are for all the free things you personally can get from the government but don't want to be personally responsible paying for. In listening to you over the years you are all about living outside the system and being very sufficient on the one hand. On the other hand I have heard you say multiple times that you can't wait till retirement age so you can draw your government guaranteed income then. An income to which I don't see you having contributed taxes over the course of your life as you have been out sailing on a cash work basis on the fringe of society. Also your desire for and belief in that you are owed health care paid for by that same system that you haven't really contributed to either. Now I realize this sounds harsh. In fact I in many ways sympathize with some of your views. Though I work and pay taxes I trend more to the fringe philosophy of less government and more freedom/anarchy within reason. My point is that you are very harsh in your attitude toward others on certain subjects but don't seem to be intellectually honest yourself about it. I respect the hell out of your designs and contributions in building and outfitting boats cheaply and effectively. Not so much when your on a crazy political rant that you haven't really thought through or are only picking talking points out of just to support your personal bias. Respectfully to one hell of a boat builder. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Who builds the roads you dive on? The government. Private highways would mean a toll gate every few miles, a huge pain in the ass. They could hold you to ransom and charge whatever they pleased. > Who do you call when some pervert fondles your daughter or kidnaps her. A private rent a cop? No the government. Who do you call when your house is on fire? Someone who can refuse to help you til you cough up the cash, or who can pout a lien on everything you own for services rendered? So much for complete anarchy. The guy with the most guns gets to help himself to whatever he wants. That is complete anarchy. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28675|28610|2012-07-30 13:37:08|ursus_222|Re: ursus_222's Q about specific paint and Butyl -- Was: Oil paint w|Hey Matt Thanks for responding, the Butyl I am referring to is called Butyl Tape manufactured by PRO FORM the number is PF 413, it used by the RV industry and glass companies for installing vents etc. I asked because the guy I got the Lexan from did not recommend Butyl he likes Sikaflex and I might want to take these windows off and use them again. Cheers Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > What is the full name of "rolls of Butyl". Can you give a link to the product ? I have more windows to do and, I would prefer to avoid silicon this time. > > Matt > | 28676|28532|2012-07-30 16:58:54|aaron riis|Re: mold / transducer|________________________________ From: brentswain38 brentswain38@... I painted the  foam insulation with latex, now it's starting to mold.   Would bathroom/ kitchen latex suffice?  Also what is your opinion on bronze and  plastic thru hull transducers on a steel boat?  Aaron To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 3:44:16 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer   Just trying it out. Ask me again, in a week or two. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > does epoxycop sticks to any kind of paint weither coaltar or regular epoxy? > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 18:59:49 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I haven't been all that impressed with ablative antifouling. They make harder stuff for offshore and continuous movement, which doesn't work so well when you stop, and softer, which works for weekend cruising,but washes of quickly when you put a lot of miles on. > > I have been using Epoxycop with good results. I'm just doing an experiment, with epoxy paint over it to see if it sticks well enough. That would make touching up the bare spots, to stop copper paint contact with bare steel, much easier. . > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > hempadur mastic 45880 > > > probably not listed in the pleasure boat section but industrial section(commercial boats) > > > they also offer antifouling; hempel olympic hi-76600 ,it is an ablative antifouling, it is the only one legal in Canada, they are not allowed to import the other ones they make > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > From: williswildest@ > > > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 05:29:07 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, could you tell us what exact epoxy's/part number you are talking about? There is a bunch of products there... Hempel's USA site is terrible - hard to find information. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hempel.us/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Choose "Marine" tab. Follow the links... There is no complete recommendation what to use. Blah... There is Epoxy Radagram tool which allows to find products, but some links are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > I found only one shop primer there for marine use (definitely not for DIY): > > > > > > > > > > > > HEMPEL'S SHOPPRIMER ZS 15890 is a two-component, solvent-borne zinc ethyl silicate shopprimer, designed for automatic spray application. > > > > > > > > > > > > It looks like Europe has much more choices... > > > > > > > > > > > > There is some self-priming coal tar epoxy, but I could not find exact part #. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > > > > > > > > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > > > > > > > > they have offices in B.C. > > > > > > > > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28677|28610|2012-07-30 18:17:33|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Wow, paces like Somalia , Sudan and Yemen sound like paradise, compared to the hell hole we live in. Why don't the anarchists go there to experience the type of state they advocate for the rest of us, and enjoy the resulting calmness they believe it results in? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Barney Treadway wrote: > > There are lots of places in the world where you can live in libertarian > utopia. Somalia, Sudan and Yemen all have great sunshiny climates and no > big bad government to get in your way. > > Our favorite knucklehead Rush Limbaugh has said he's thinking of moving > to Costa Rica to escape our feeble attempt at health care reform. No one > told him they have socialized medicine there! > > On 7/28/2012 4:42 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Who builds the roads you dive on? The government. Private highways > > would mean a toll gate every few miles, a huge pain in the ass. They > > could hold you to ransom and charge whatever they pleased. > > Who do you call when some pervert fondles your daughter or kidnaps > > her. A private rent a cop? No the government. Who do you call when > > your house is on fire? Someone who can refuse to help you til you > > cough up the cash, or who can pout a lien on everything you own for > > services rendered? So much for complete anarchy. The guy with the most > > guns gets to help himself to whatever he wants. That is complete anarchy. > > Staying healthy is no guarantee against cancer, a broken leg or worse. > > Seeing how kids are crippled for life in the US if their parents cant > > cough up the money , or how 40% of the homeless got there for a lack > > of as govt health care system, I think you guys are the ones who are > > brainwashed. > > They spent huge amounts of money here to brainwash us into believing > > that public health care is a bad thing. Some actually were suckered > > into believing it , at first. Now only the parasites and super > > gullible would still believe that! > > > > I just talked to a Devoe Dealer who told me that paint companies are > > scrambling to find a replacement for oil based paints. The ban applies > > to all oil based paints, including Marine enamel. > > So, obviously ,the Corp$ervatives brought in the ban before even > > bothering to ask if there were alternatives, and any alternatives , if > > and when they arrive, will be triple the price of oil based enamels. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care > > of your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away > > from doctors, stay away from almost any man made materials- hard to > > do but they all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, > > grinding, blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to > > a degree. > > >  > > > At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which > > BTW is not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other > > end you have imaginary creations called states, government, > > associations, clubs, etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself > > to perform certain duties you have given up certain liberties, > > sometimes they conive you into believing free health care is in your > > interest, sometimes you agree, sometimes it the barrel of the gun; > > either way you lost freedom and are forced to give up rights and > > perform those duties thats the other end of the scale it then its just > > a matter of degree. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > > > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the > > govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is > > definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance > > companies. > > > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the > > government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of > > the corporations, if need be). > > > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. > > They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they > > become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The > > quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate > > fascism is a good example. > > > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite > > of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian > > provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public > > medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the > > corporate, insurance company extortionists. > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, the first thing I thought afterÃ, i wrote thatÃ, was the > > word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which > > it did relate too aboutÃ, 100 years ago.Ã, Need to be careful > > usingÃ, such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls > > socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what > > you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown > > communism,Ã, then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel". > > > > Ã, > > > > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was > > taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ã, > > > > > > > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" > > meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", > > and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises > > there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is > > often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of > > right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as > > right wingers.. > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are > > trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it > > and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even > > do that.ÃfâEURs(Ã, They are even more liberal than even the > > US.ÃfâEURs(Ã, BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃfâEURs(Ã, > > > > > > > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same > > Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen > > pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of > > the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, > > so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern > > Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > > > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > > > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget > > Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in > > the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > > > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, > > Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will > > definitly get rid of them. . > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government > > needs to do > > > > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time > > someone cleans a > > > > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going > > down the drain? > > > > > > > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will > > have....or > > > > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and > > security of the > > > > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he > > confirmed it, > > > > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5156 - Release Date: 07/26/12 > > > > -- > > Barney Treadway > www.ecomshare.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28678|28610|2012-07-30 18:41:53|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Perhaps you could explain to me how I am able to avoid the 11% sales tax, paying the property taxes of every merchant I ever made a purchase from, gas and diesel taxes, for the trucks who deliver the goods, etc etc? Then maybe I could try it. The average cars is subsidized to the tune of $2500 a year , which is how much more it costs to build and maintain the highway than they pay in road and gas taxes, money that comes out of my taxes . I don,t drive a car and have never owned one. I haven't needed a doctor in years , but my taxes pay for those who eat and relax their way into serious health problems due to obesity and inactivity. Two doctors have told me that if everyone stayed in shape , as I do, and didn't smoke ( I have never smoked) it could reduce health care costs by 80% . How much is my bill for the many days I have spent volenteer campaigning for parties which support public health care. That is a sizeable contribution. I've paid my dues. The due criticisms of governments I have made is about their intrusions into our daily lives, and using boaters as scapegoats and smokescreens for more important issues, smokescreens which have nothing to do with the social safety net they provide ,or fail to provide. They only detract form such real issues. Providing a social safety net doesn't give one the right to violate ones privacy or charter rights. Our souls and freedoms are not for sale, at any price. Tapping into the social safety net doesn't mean giving up ones basic charter rights. We don't become anyone's slave when we do. Progressive taxes, where those who have the biggest income, and thus the biggest environmental foot print, pay the highest taxes,is a reward for living sustainably. Defence minister Peter McKay spent $29,000 of taxpayers money on two nights in a hotel. Do I feel guilty about tapping into his piggy bank? Not a chance! Do you think he will refuse his Old Age Pension, because he already has more money than he needs? Not a chance! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > Brent, > total red herring.... The government doesn't build roads they pay private companies to build roads. Guess what the government uses to pay those companies.. oh... thats right.. the money they took from you in taxes. Every road you drive on that is a public road is a toll road in one way or another. You just don't pay it as you get on and off that road. Instead they take it out of the money you pay for fuel, money out of your pay check, the sales taxes you pay to purchase products. At least be intellectually honest about it. > > I find your views to be oddly conflicted. On the one hand you bash both the US and your government for infringing on your/our rights and freedoms, then on the other hand you bash the people who actually seem to hold many of the same views you hold and prefer less intrusive government but they just happen to live in the US. > > Or could it just be that you are for all the free things you personally can get from the government but don't want to be personally responsible paying for. > > In listening to you over the years you are all about living outside the system and being very sufficient on the one hand. On the other hand I have heard you say multiple times that you can't wait till retirement age so you can draw your government guaranteed income then. An income to which I don't see you having contributed taxes over the course of your life as you have been out sailing on a cash work basis on the fringe of society. Also your desire for and belief in that you are owed health care paid for by that same system that you haven't really contributed to either. > > Now I realize this sounds harsh. In fact I in many ways sympathize with some of your views. Though I work and pay taxes I trend more to the fringe philosophy of less government and more freedom/anarchy within reason. My point is that you are very harsh in your attitude toward others on certain subjects but don't seem to be intellectually honest yourself about it. > > I respect the hell out of your designs and contributions in building and outfitting boats cheaply and effectively. Not so much when your on a crazy political rant that you haven't really thought through or are only picking talking points out of just to support your personal bias. > > Respectfully to one hell of a boat builder. > Scott > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Who builds the roads you dive on? The government. Private highways would mean a toll gate every few miles, a huge pain in the ass. They could hold you to ransom and charge whatever they pleased. > > Who do you call when some pervert fondles your daughter or kidnaps her. A private rent a cop? No the government. Who do you call when your house is on fire? Someone who can refuse to help you til you cough up the cash, or who can pout a lien on everything you own for services rendered? So much for complete anarchy. The guy with the most guns gets to help himself to whatever he wants. That is complete anarchy. > | 28679|28610|2012-07-30 18:45:13|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Several doctors, one a former BC Chief medical officer, have told me that 80% of the cost of health care is inactivity and smoking. 80%, not 100%! No matter how healthy one may live, there is still the remaining 20% for which one needs health care. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care of your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away from doctors, stay away  from almost any man made materials- hard to do but they all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, grinding, blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to a degree.  >   > At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which BTW is not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other end you have imaginary creations called states, government, associations, clubs, etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself to perform certain duties you have given up certain liberties, sometimes they conive you into believing free health care is in your interest, sometimes you agree, sometimes it the barrel of the gun; either way you lost freedom and are forced to give up rights and perform those duties thats the other end of the scale it then its just a matter of degree. > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > >   > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > Brent, the first thing I thought after i wrote that was the word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did relate too about 100 years ago.  Need to be careful using  such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown communism, then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel". > >   > > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > >   > > > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.  They are even more liberal than even the US.  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28680|28610|2012-07-30 18:47:05|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 Skeg|Just scale it off the drawings you have, all of which are drawn to scale. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Cotter wrote: > > Hi Folks- > > Getting back to my project after a few years of interruption. My older 26 plans don't have drawings for the skeg. Would anyone be willing to scan and post the skeg drawings/measurements. I would be most appreciative. > > Thanks > > Paul > > > > RECENT ACTIVITY: New Members 4 > > Visit Your Group > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use > > . > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28681|28610|2012-07-30 18:52:42|Paul Cotter|Re: BS 26 Skeg|Thanks Brent. Is the placement of the spacer pipes important? Is the width important? Paul On Jul 30, 2012, at 2:47 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Just scale it off the drawings you have, all of which are drawn to scale. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Cotter wrote: > > > > Hi Folks- > > > > Getting back to my project after a few years of interruption. My older 26 plans don't have drawings for the skeg. Would anyone be willing to scan and post the skeg drawings/measurements. I would be most appreciative. > > > > Thanks > > > > Paul > > > > > > > RECENT ACTIVITY: New Members 4 > > > Visit Your Group > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest � Unsubscribe � Terms of Use > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28682|28610|2012-07-30 18:58:45|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|The money could always come from where it used to come, from taxing the filthy rich, as they used to do. Their taxes have dropped drastically over the last 50 years, while taxes at the lower end of the income scale have risen, and and cuts to services to the bottom of the income scale have been increased porportionately. One Federal MP said " Put a maximum on how big a handout to the rich is tax deductable for a corporation. $200K should be tax deductable as an expense, anything over that should not. We paid David Hahn over a million dollars a year to totally screw up the BC ferry corporation. I could have screwed it up , just as bad, for a fraction that amount. The former premier gave himself a 55% raise and his friends a 30% raise, saying basically "We need to enhance the greed factor, to get high quality ( Greedier) people, into government." Wanna cut handouts? Start with those who get the biggest handouts. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > You can talk politics and say this and that and blame one group or > another but nobody can tell me where the money is going to come to fund > all these social programs. Politicians are playing a game and just > trying to extend and pretend and hoping the sheeple don't catch on. > > "Every election is a sort of advance auction of stolen goods." H.L. Mencken > > The idea that the baby boomers have paid enough in to society and are > now going to reap the rewards of all their hard work is just BS. The > money has already been spent and the demographics make it impossible. A > six year old with a calculator can quickly figure out that it is all a > Ponzi Scheme and that future growth isn't going to fund all the promises > and obligations. > > Love her or hate her, Margaret Thatcher was right when she said, "The > problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's > money" > > Anyway, democracy is four coyotes and a lamb voting on what to have for > lunch. Well the lamb has already been eaten. People are only now > starting to realize. I am much too independent to think that the > government will give me anything in the future other than the bare > necessities like public infrastructure and utilities funded by > increasing taxes and fees. As for a pension, forget it..... > > Think happy thoughts.... > > Cheers, Paul > | 28683|28610|2012-07-30 19:02:16|brentswain38|Re: ursus_222's Q about specific paint and Butyl -- Was: Oil paint w|Huge mistake ! Lexan fogs up completely after three years , after which you cant see anything thru them . Plexi is far better , unless you seek complete privacy, without curtains . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I have replaced windows with lexan. I laid the lexan on the outside of the doghouse, bolted through, sealing with bathroom / outdoor silicon. Shortly afterward, there was comment on here never to use silicon as the silicon oil likes to absorb into fibreglass. I suspect that is not a problem on steel. I know silicon works nicely otherwise. I painted my doghouse white, then used white silicon, the silicon visually disappears. I used a 2cm+ lap, and, the bolts were mainly to hold it in place until the silicon hardened, and afterward serve as chicken bolts. Chicken bolts are used by those afraid of peel failure of otherwise really strong adhesive bonds. > > What is the full name of "rolls of Butyl". Can you give a link to the product ? I have more windows to do and, I would prefer to avoid silicon this time. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ursus_222@... > Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 17:10:47 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello > > > > Interesting topic, I was just lent a book called Fascism and the Right in Europe 1919-45, I look forward to reading it but for now I am busy getting rid of rust and replacing my picture windows and portholes with clear lexan, I have a few questions about paint. I am using Dulux pre prime on the Rust I can't remove properly, Bar Rust 235 Epoxy and Dev stain 379 for the top coat, the Rep says 24 hours between coats and the can says 5 hours on the Epoxy so I'm wondering what you guys think? I like the 5 hours because that would get me out Sailing a couple days sooner. > > > > I have a few rolls of Butyl so I'm wondering whats recommended for Lexan, should I stick with Butyl? I'm hoping to get a couple years out of this Boat until I decide whether to do a refit or build another hull and transfer everything over thats worth the effort, after seeing the extent of the rust so far I am leaning towards building. > > > > I was told the Dulux DEVOE paints are AKZO NOBEL. > > > > Thanks Vic > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > > > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. > > > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). > > > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > > > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28684|28610|2012-07-30 19:06:26|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 Skeg|Just make sure the spacers don't end up in the way of the stern tube. The wider the stronger, as long as it's not wide enough to cause excessive drag. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Cotter wrote: > > Thanks Brent. > > Is the placement of the spacer pipes important? Is the width important? > > Paul > > On Jul 30, 2012, at 2:47 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > Just scale it off the drawings you have, all of which are drawn to scale. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Cotter wrote: > > > > > > Hi Folks- > > > > > > Getting back to my project after a few years of interruption. My older 26 plans don't have drawings for the skeg. Would anyone be willing to scan and post the skeg drawings/measurements. I would be most appreciative. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > RECENT ACTIVITY: New Members 4 > > > > Visit Your Group > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28685|28610|2012-07-30 20:16:59|Kim|Re: BS 26 Skeg|Hi Paul ... The plans for my 26' show the skeg to be 4" wide at the top, and 2" wide at the bottom. Somehow my skeg ended up being 5" wide at the top where it joins the hull; but as Brent said that's probably not a bad thing. It's still 2" wide at the bottom. By pure luck my top spacer didn't get in the way of the stern tube; but unfortunately I had positioned them too close to the trailing edge of the skeg, and consequently they were causing big problems when I tried to pull the prop aperture opening together. So I had to cut both spacers off (using a plasma torch inserted through the prop aperture opening) prior to pulling together the prop aperture opening. Fortunately, cutting both the spacers out didn't seem to alter the shape of the skeg at all (because, I assume, at that stage it was fully welded to the hull and its shape was locked). One looming problem now is that it appears I'm not going to have room between the stern tube (inside the skeg), and the inner wall of the skeg, to push through a 3/4" pipe for the engine coolant intake (which has to go to near the bottom of the skeg.) I think I'll have to flatten the pipe a bit with a hammer (so it will have an oval shape rather than round); but I'm not sure if doing that will affect the flow rate of the engine coolant. Anyway, hope this helps! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Just make sure the spacers don't end up in the way of the stern tube. The wider the stronger, as long as it's not wide enough to cause excessive drag. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Cotter wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent. > > > > Is the placement of the spacer pipes important? Is the width important? > > > > Paul > > > > On Jul 30, 2012, at 2:47 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > Just scale it off the drawings you have, all of which are drawn to scale. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Cotter wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Folks- > > > > > > > > Getting back to my project after a few years of interruption. My older 26 plans don't have drawings for the skeg. Would anyone be willing to scan and post the skeg drawings/measurements. I would be most appreciative. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Paul ______________________________________________________________ | 28686|28686|2012-07-30 20:31:43|Kim|Chicken bolts.|Talking of chicken bolts in windows ... This is a guy who used zero mechanical fasteners in his windows: http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/windows.html Seemed to work OK for him. What do you guys think of this? The front and rear windows in my car don't seem to have any mechanical fastenings - they seem to be just sitting on some black mastic stuff. However, I'm not sure if I could not put mechanical fastenings around the windows in my boat! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I have replaced windows with lexan. I laid the lexan on the outside of the doghouse, bolted through, sealing with bathroom / outdoor silicon. Shortly afterward, there was comment on here never to use silicon as the silicon oil likes to absorb into fibreglass. I suspect that is not a problem on steel. I know silicon works nicely otherwise. I painted my doghouse white, then used white silicon, the silicon visually disappears. I used a 2cm+ lap, and, the bolts were mainly to hold it in place until the silicon hardened, and afterward serve as chicken bolts. Chicken bolts are used by those afraid of peel failure of otherwise really strong adhesive bonds. > > What is the full name of "rolls of Butyl". Can you give a link to the product ? I have more windows to do and, I would prefer to avoid silicon this time. > > Matt | 28687|28610|2012-07-30 20:32:08|Matt Malone|Re: ursus_222's Q about specific paint and Butyl -- Was: Oil paint w|Possibly... I did my windows more than 3 years ago, boat is tarped in the winter, but, the windows are still crystal clear. I do not touch the window with anything, not rags, not a squeegee, just soapy water. I got special lexan that is UV resistant and hardened surface. It was about 3x the price of regular lexan. I bought a scrap for about 2x regular scrap cost (GE Polyshapes). I would not know about say, mooring where there is a lot blowing sand in the air. I am not saying it will last as long as plexi, but I like the toughness. Plexi shatters if it is hit hard enough. Yes, really thick plexi, like port-hole-glass-thick OK. Lexan, it would take you a long time to make a hand-sized hole with an axe. You can drive a nail into it. Even 5/16" or so in thickness. I will let you know when I see fogging. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 23:02:11 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ursus_222's Q about specific paint and Butyl -- Was: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept Huge mistake ! Lexan fogs up completely after three years , after which you cant see anything thru them . Plexi is far better , unless you seek complete privacy, without curtains . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I have replaced windows with lexan. I laid the lexan on the outside of the doghouse, bolted through, sealing with bathroom / outdoor silicon. Shortly afterward, there was comment on here never to use silicon as the silicon oil likes to absorb into fibreglass. I suspect that is not a problem on steel. I know silicon works nicely otherwise. I painted my doghouse white, then used white silicon, the silicon visually disappears. I used a 2cm+ lap, and, the bolts were mainly to hold it in place until the silicon hardened, and afterward serve as chicken bolts. Chicken bolts are used by those afraid of peel failure of otherwise really strong adhesive bonds. > > What is the full name of "rolls of Butyl". Can you give a link to the product ? I have more windows to do and, I would prefer to avoid silicon this time. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ursus_222@... > Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 17:10:47 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello > > > > Interesting topic, I was just lent a book called Fascism and the Right in Europe 1919-45, I look forward to reading it but for now I am busy getting rid of rust and replacing my picture windows and portholes with clear lexan, I have a few questions about paint. I am using Dulux pre prime on the Rust I can't remove properly, Bar Rust 235 Epoxy and Dev stain 379 for the top coat, the Rep says 24 hours between coats and the can says 5 hours on the Epoxy so I'm wondering what you guys think? I like the 5 hours because that would get me out Sailing a couple days sooner. > > > > I have a few rolls of Butyl so I'm wondering whats recommended for Lexan, should I stick with Butyl? I'm hoping to get a couple years out of this Boat until I decide whether to do a refit or build another hull and transfer everything over thats worth the effort, after seeing the extent of the rust so far I am leaning towards building. > > > > I was told the Dulux DEVOE paints are AKZO NOBEL. > > > > Thanks Vic > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > > > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. > > > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). > > > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > > > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28688|28686|2012-07-30 22:52:48|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Chicken bolts.|I put the windows back on my fiberglass boat last year using all the same materials. So far so good. It does look nice, and the old windows leaked at the bolt holes. Gary H. Lucas From: Kim Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 8:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Chicken bolts. Talking of chicken bolts in windows ... This is a guy who used zero mechanical fasteners in his windows: http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/windows.html Seemed to work OK for him. What do you guys think of this? The front and rear windows in my car don't seem to have any mechanical fastenings - they seem to be just sitting on some black mastic stuff. However, I'm not sure if I could not put mechanical fastenings around the windows in my boat! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht __________________________________________________________ --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I have replaced windows with lexan. I laid the lexan on the outside of the doghouse, bolted through, sealing with bathroom / outdoor silicon. Shortly afterward, there was comment on here never to use silicon as the silicon oil likes to absorb into fibreglass. I suspect that is not a problem on steel. I know silicon works nicely otherwise. I painted my doghouse white, then used white silicon, the silicon visually disappears. I used a 2cm+ lap, and, the bolts were mainly to hold it in place until the silicon hardened, and afterward serve as chicken bolts. Chicken bolts are used by those afraid of peel failure of otherwise really strong adhesive bonds. > > What is the full name of "rolls of Butyl". Can you give a link to the product ? I have more windows to do and, I would prefer to avoid silicon this time. > > Matt Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28689|28686|2012-07-30 23:04:34|Matt Malone|Re: Chicken bolts.|A comment first: "Consult your supplier for recomended thickness of plastic. I used 3/16" (lexan) (4.4mm) for the project shown. If using perspex/acrylic, I would have increased that to 8mm." I think mine are 5/16" lexan, and I think even > 5/8" plexi would not feel as secure to me. Also my doghouse windows were short and long, so, I wanted them to have comparable in toughness to the fibreglass around it. The windows are placed on the outside and would stand external pressures pretty good because of it. "Green" water rushing over the cabin top can exert tremendous suction forces also. I once had an 8 foot surfboard in the wrong part of a wave thrown up by hurricane Allen. About 6 inches of water was flowing over the surface of the board, from behind as I was on the top of the curl. I felt the board break into 3 pieces underneath me to conform to the shape of the curl, before I was tossed head-first in front of the wave. I could see the water on the board was shallow, but its speed gave it extraordinary strength/force. It was a long slow build up to the curl and I had plenty of time to marvel at the broken board feeling its parts vibrate as it broke. It was fascinating. And I did not feel anything other than a really strong current. There was no feeling like I was getting washed off the board or anything. The board was nearly parallel to the flow. The area of the board, plus the pressure of the water must have added up to hundreds if not thousands of pounds. I have hear a figure of 85 psi as the pressure of a breaking wave. Well, waves can also cause cavitation, water turning to vapour, boiling due to extreme low pressures. The vapour point, boiling point of water at 20 C is about 17 mmHg out of a total atmospheric pressure of 760 mmHg, so, about 97% or 98% of full vacuum. That is 14.5 pounds per square inch. Very good silicon has a tensile strength of 350 psi, but a peel strength of only 40 pounds per inch. To pull the window clean off, on a 16"x10" window with 2" of overlap around would require a pull of about 20 tons. Once one edge of the window lifts however, in peel it requires only 160 pounds pull on the free edge to keep it peeling off. That is a ratio of 260 to one advantage in peel. Peel is a very powerful failure mode. The consequence will be, the window is there, then suddenly, it is gone, or it is still there. A reasonably good #10 bolt with washers will hold hundreds of pounds of force each, and the peel is likely to stop at two bolts, one on each side. Near full vacuum on a 16"x10" window with 2" of overlap around is 4060 pounds of force. If one is very confident that there are no defects in the seal from which a peel crack can start, the silicon alone is about 10 times stronger than it needs to be. If peel starts, water can produce 10 times more suction on the window than is needed to keep the peel going. With even #10 chicken bolts, the ratio is down to probably less than 3 times the load needed to break bolts. If you think there is a chance of cavitation-level suction and peel failure of windows, larger bolts would be a good idea. Even a 3/8" , grade 5 bolt (according to alma bolt) has a proof load of 6600 pounds, so 2 of them will hold more than 3 times the maximum suction force the window can face. If water or gear applies an impact or pressure on the inside of the window, one would have to start calculating all over again. Chicken bolts are a good idea if you are afraid of peel. If one is really afraid of peel then larger bolts would be needed. Chicken bolts are there to keep it from flying off even if the sealant fails in places. My windows being long and curved, I needed the bolts to form the plastic into the right curve to fit the boat anyway. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kimdxx@... Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 00:31:41 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Chicken bolts. Talking of chicken bolts in windows ... This is a guy who used zero mechanical fasteners in his windows: http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/windows.html Seemed to work OK for him. What do you guys think of this? The front and rear windows in my car don't seem to have any mechanical fastenings - they seem to be just sitting on some black mastic stuff. However, I'm not sure if I could not put mechanical fastenings around the windows in my boat! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht __________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I have replaced windows with lexan. I laid the lexan on the outside of the doghouse, bolted through, sealing with bathroom / outdoor silicon. Shortly afterward, there was comment on here never to use silicon as the silicon oil likes to absorb into fibreglass. I suspect that is not a problem on steel. I know silicon works nicely otherwise. I painted my doghouse white, then used white silicon, the silicon visually disappears. I used a 2cm+ lap, and, the bolts were mainly to hold it in place until the silicon hardened, and afterward serve as chicken bolts. Chicken bolts are used by those afraid of peel failure of otherwise really strong adhesive bonds. > > What is the full name of "rolls of Butyl". Can you give a link to the product ? I have more windows to do and, I would prefer to avoid silicon this time. > > Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28690|28686|2012-07-31 00:24:13|Gord Schnell|Re: Chicken bolts.|Good to hear how others are dealing with ports. Could have used some ideas, but their in now. here is what I did. I puzzled over the best solution for a long while and finally decided that flush-mounting would reduce the chance of breakage. The lexan was installed flush with the cabin, using 1/2" angle iron as an "inside" frame for the lexan. The angle was welded to the inside of the cabin, filled with Sikaflex 291, and the Lexan installed from the outside. A SS frame was installed to cover the junction of the lexan and the cabin side screwed thru the cabin and the lexan, using SS screws. This left the ports flush with the outside of the cabin. The result looks good and they all (29) survived the winter. Note: Drill the holes in the Lexan, way oversize. Lexan has a big expansion/ contraction factor, Looks good. Gord On 2012-07-30, at 8:04 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > A comment first: > > "Consult your supplier for recomended > thickness of plastic. I used 3/16" (lexan) (4.4mm) for the project > shown. If using perspex/acrylic, I would have increased that > to 8mm." > > I think mine are 5/16" lexan, and I think even > 5/8" plexi would not feel as secure to me. Also my doghouse windows were short and long, so, I wanted them to have comparable in toughness to the fibreglass around it. > > The windows are placed on the outside and would stand external pressures pretty good because of it. "Green" water rushing over the cabin top can exert tremendous suction forces also. I once had an 8 foot surfboard in the wrong part of a wave thrown up by hurricane Allen. About 6 inches of water was flowing over the surface of the board, from behind as I was on the top of the curl. I felt the board break into 3 pieces underneath me to conform to the shape of the curl, before I was tossed head-first in front of the wave. I could see the water on the board was shallow, but its speed gave it extraordinary strength/force. It was a long slow build up to the curl and I had plenty of time to marvel at the broken board feeling its parts vibrate as it broke. It was fascinating. And I did not feel anything other than a really strong current. There was no feeling like I was getting washed off the board or anything. The board was nearly parallel to the flow. The area of the > board, plus the pressure of the water must have added up to hundreds if not thousands of pounds. I have hear a figure of 85 psi as the pressure of a breaking wave. Well, waves can also cause cavitation, water turning to vapour, boiling due to extreme low pressures. The vapour point, boiling point of water at 20 C is about 17 mmHg out of a total atmospheric pressure of 760 mmHg, so, about 97% or 98% of full vacuum. That is 14.5 pounds per square inch. > > Very good silicon has a tensile strength of 350 psi, but a peel strength of only 40 pounds per inch. To pull the window clean off, on a 16"x10" window with 2" of overlap around would require a pull of about 20 tons. Once one edge of the window lifts however, in peel it requires only 160 pounds pull on the free edge to keep it peeling off. That is a ratio of 260 to one advantage in peel. Peel is a very powerful failure mode. The consequence will be, the window is there, then suddenly, it is gone, or it is still there. A reasonably good #10 bolt with washers will hold hundreds of pounds of force each, and the peel is likely to stop at two bolts, one on each side. > > Near full vacuum on a 16"x10" window with 2" of overlap around is 4060 pounds of force. If one is very confident that there are no defects in the seal from which a peel crack can start, the silicon alone is about 10 times stronger than it needs to be. If peel starts, water can produce 10 times more suction on the window than is needed to keep the peel going. With even #10 chicken bolts, the ratio is down to probably less than 3 times the load needed to break bolts. If you think there is a chance of cavitation-level suction and peel failure of windows, larger bolts would be a good idea. Even a 3/8" , grade 5 bolt (according to alma bolt) has a proof load of 6600 pounds, so 2 of them will hold more than 3 times the maximum suction force the window can face. If water or gear applies an impact or pressure on the inside of the window, one would have to start calculating all over again. > > Chicken bolts are a good idea if you are afraid of peel. If one is really afraid of peel then larger bolts would be needed. Chicken bolts are there to keep it from flying off even if the sealant fails in places. My windows being long and curved, I needed the bolts to form the plastic into the right curve to fit the boat anyway. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 00:31:41 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Chicken bolts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Talking of chicken bolts in windows ... > > > > This is a guy who used zero mechanical fasteners in his windows: > > > > http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/windows.html > > > > Seemed to work OK for him. What do you guys think of this? > > > > The front and rear windows in my car don't seem to have any mechanical fastenings - they seem to be just sitting on some black mastic stuff. > > > > However, I'm not sure if I could not put mechanical fastenings around the windows in my boat! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > >> > >> I have replaced windows with lexan. I laid the lexan on the outside of the doghouse, bolted through, sealing with bathroom / outdoor silicon. Shortly afterward, there was comment on here never to use silicon as the silicon oil likes to absorb into fibreglass. I suspect that is not a problem on steel. I know silicon works nicely otherwise. I painted my doghouse white, then used white silicon, the silicon visually disappears. I used a 2cm+ lap, and, the bolts were mainly to hold it in place until the silicon hardened, and afterward serve as chicken bolts. Chicken bolts are used by those afraid of peel failure of otherwise really strong adhesive bonds. > >> > >> What is the full name of "rolls of Butyl". Can you give a link to the product ? I have more windows to do and, I would prefer to avoid silicon this time. > >> > >> Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 28691|28686|2012-07-31 00:47:03|Paul Wilson|Re: Chicken bolts.|It is the UV that makes Lexan go yellow. Plexiglass (acrylic sheet) never goes yellow. I have heard that it was first used in World War II and is still OK in some buildings. Plexi is soft and scratches but the scratches can normally be buffed or polished out if they aren't too severe. Lexan is much, much stronger but is also quite flexible compared to Plexiglass. If it is too thin, it may not break but it can bend so much that it will pop out of it's surrounding frame when hit by a wave. There are some excellent glues now made for acrylic and plastic sheet. Sikaflex 295UV is one. Dow makes one but I can't remember the name. They are very expensive though and may not work if there is a lot of flex and movement in the sheet. Plastic sheet expands and contracts a lot with temperature changes so the glue instructions must be followed closely with a large gap allowing for movement. UV may also attack some of the glues over time so they must be painted or covered somehow. If it was structural, I wouldn't use any glue, silicone or polyurethane unless it was designed for it. If it is not structural and the goop is only acting as a sealant, butyl with a gasket and surrounding frame may be the best and cheapest way to go. Butyl is great stuff and it is also possible to take apart later if needed. http://www.bluemoment.com/downloads/sikaflexmarinehandbook.pdf Cheers, Paul| 28692|28686|2012-07-31 07:18:34|boatwayupnorth|Re: Chicken bolts.|Gord, is the SS frame just cosmetic? Did you just glue it with Sikaflex or did you put the ss-screws through cabin, Lexan and frame? I'm a slow learner, therefore: Do you have a picture? Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Good to hear how others are dealing with ports. Could have used some ideas, but their in now. here is what I did. > I puzzled over the best solution for a long while and finally decided that flush-mounting would reduce the chance of breakage. The lexan was installed flush with the cabin, using 1/2" angle iron as an "inside" frame for the lexan. The angle was welded to the inside of the cabin, filled with Sikaflex 291, and the Lexan installed from the outside. A SS frame was installed to cover the junction of the lexan and the cabin side screwed thru the cabin and the lexan, using SS screws. This left the ports flush with the outside of the cabin. The result looks good and they all (29) survived the winter. Note: Drill the holes in the Lexan, way oversize. Lexan has a big expansion/ contraction factor, Looks good. > Gord > > | 28693|28686|2012-07-31 11:39:22|Gord Schnell|Re: Chicken bolts.|The SS frame covers the Sikaflex joint between the hull and the Lexan. There are 2 screw patterns: the inner ring goes thru the lexan and into the angle iron frame. The outer ring of screws go thru the SS and into the steel cabin side. I didn't take pics of the construction process, but maybe this will explain, Gord outside hull .......................................... SS frame -hull------^ : ^----Lexan-------^ : ^-----------hull--- :_^----Lexan-------^_: angle iron frame ^ ^ screw screw On 2012-07-31, at 4:18 AM, boatwayupnorth wrote: > > > Gord, is the SS frame just cosmetic? Did you just glue it with Sikaflex or did you put the ss-screws through cabin, Lexan and frame? > I'm a slow learner, therefore: Do you have a picture? > Walter > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > Good to hear how others are dealing with ports. Could have used some ideas, but their in now. here is what I did. > > I puzzled over the best solution for a long while and finally decided that flush-mounting would reduce the chance of breakage. The lexan was installed flush with the cabin, using 1/2" angle iron as an "inside" frame for the lexan. The angle was welded to the inside of the cabin, filled with Sikaflex 291, and the Lexan installed from the outside. A SS frame was installed to cover the junction of the lexan and the cabin side screwed thru the cabin and the lexan, using SS screws. This left the ports flush with the outside of the cabin. The result looks good and they all (29) survived the winter. Note: Drill the holes in the Lexan, way oversize. Lexan has a big expansion/ contraction factor, Looks good. > > Gord > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28694|28610|2012-07-31 12:17:31|ursus_222|Re: ursus_222's Q about specific paint and Butyl -- Was: Oil paint w|Brent I got a good deal on the Lexan and for the price if it lasts three years I am happy and in the meantime I have the additional strength of Lexan on the big side picture windows so I'm not too concerned about the Lexan fogging up in a couple years to be honest. There are products that will slow the yellowing and protect the surface from scratching, they are pricey. I still need to buy the material for two of the smaller portholes so I will use Acrylic, Lexan isn't perfect but between the price and the following info it works for me, for now! Vic Some of the info I used Key characteristics/differences, Acrylic compared to Polycarbonate (Lexan): More likely to chip, less impact resistance then Polycarbonate. (still 10-24 times more resistant than glass) Less likely to scratch. More of a consumer (household) level and is easier to find at hardware stores. Does NOT yellow after time. Better clarity and can be restored to optical clarity. Key characteristics/differences, Polycarbonate (Lexan) compared to Acrylic: Impact/chip resistance is much higher with Polycarbonate. (about 30 times more resistant than glass) More likely to scratch. Substantially more expensive. (roughly 2 to 3 times) Used for more industry applications Bulletproof when thick enough. More bendable. More formable. Yellows over time due to ultraviolet rays Easier to work with (cut, less likely to break) Poorer clarity, diffuses light, can lighten (could be positive). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Huge mistake ! > Lexan fogs up completely after three years , after which you cant see anything thru them . Plexi is far better , unless you seek complete privacy, without curtains > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Huge mistake ! > Lexan fogs up completely after three years , after which you cant see anything thru them . Plexi is far better , unless you seek complete privacy, without curtains | 28695|28686|2012-07-31 12:28:25|ursus_222|Re: Chicken bolts.|Hey Gary Wished I had read this sooner I would have tried it, anything to get away from thru bolts that they drilled thru the window sills to install. :( Cheers Vic. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I put the windows back on my fiberglass boat last year using all the same materials. So far so good. It does look nice, and the old windows leaked at the bolt holes. > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: Kim > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 8:31 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Chicken bolts. > > > > Talking of chicken bolts in windows ... > > This is a guy who used zero mechanical fasteners in his windows: > > http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/windows.html > > Seemed to work OK for him. What do you guys think of this? > > The front and rear windows in my car don't seem to have any mechanical fastenings - they seem to be just sitting on some black mastic stuff. > > However, I'm not sure if I could not put mechanical fastenings around the windows in my boat! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > __________________________________________________________ > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I have replaced windows with lexan. I laid the lexan on the outside of the doghouse, bolted through, sealing with bathroom / outdoor silicon. Shortly afterward, there was comment on here never to use silicon as the silicon oil likes to absorb into fibreglass. I suspect that is not a problem on steel. I know silicon works nicely otherwise. I painted my doghouse white, then used white silicon, the silicon visually disappears. I used a 2cm+ lap, and, the bolts were mainly to hold it in place until the silicon hardened, and afterward serve as chicken bolts. Chicken bolts are used by those afraid of peel failure of otherwise really strong adhesive bonds. > > > > What is the full name of "rolls of Butyl". Can you give a link to the product ? I have more windows to do and, I would prefer to avoid silicon this time. > > > > Matt > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28696|28686|2012-07-31 12:33:39|ursus_222|Re: Chicken bolts.|Hey Paul I still haven't installed the windows, the PO had drilled the Lexan to 5/16 for a 1/4" bolt so I what size hole would you recommend? Thanks Vic. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > It is the UV that makes Lexan go yellow. Plexiglass (acrylic sheet) > never goes yellow. I have heard that it was first used in World War II > and is still OK in some buildings. Plexi is soft and scratches but the > scratches can normally be buffed or polished out if they aren't too > severe. Lexan is much, much stronger but is also quite flexible > compared to Plexiglass. If it is too thin, it may not break but it can > bend so much that it will pop out of it's surrounding frame when hit by > a wave. > > There are some excellent glues now made for acrylic and plastic sheet. > Sikaflex 295UV is one. Dow makes one but I can't remember the name. > They are very expensive though and may not work if there is a lot of > flex and movement in the sheet. Plastic sheet expands and contracts a > lot with temperature changes so the glue instructions must be followed > closely with a large gap allowing for movement. UV may also attack some > of the glues over time so they must be painted or covered somehow. If it > was structural, I wouldn't use any glue, silicone or polyurethane unless > it was designed for it. If it is not structural and the goop is only > acting as a sealant, butyl with a gasket and surrounding frame may be > the best and cheapest way to go. Butyl is great stuff and it is also > possible to take apart later if needed. > > http://www.bluemoment.com/downloads/sikaflexmarinehandbook.pdf > > Cheers, Paul > | 28697|28532|2012-07-31 13:27:52|wild_explorer|Re: mold / transducer|Clean the mold first http://www.healthyhouseinstitute.com/a_1124-Less_Toxic_Cleaners_for_Mold_and_Mildew# and apply mold-resistant latex paint (you probably used regular one). There are some latex paint to fix surfaces affected by mold. Read safety label. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > > I painted the  foam insulation with latex, now it's starting to mold.   Would bathroom/ kitchen latex suffice?  Also what is your opinion on bronze and  plastic thru hull transducers on a steel boat?  Aaron > | 28698|28686|2012-07-31 14:01:35|Gord Schnell|Re: Chicken bolts.|Walter Yes and No, the SS frame does 3 things: 1. It covers the Sikaflex interface/seal between the lexan and the steel angle iron, thereby protecting the SikaFlex from the sun and weather. 2. provides some insurance that if the boat is slammed on its' side (into a wave or such) the lexan window will be less likely to be "sucked" out of the frame. 3. It hides the frame/lexan interface and "dresses up" the port. Gord On 2012-07-31, at 4:18 AM, boatwayupnorth wrote: > > > Gord, is the SS frame just cosmetic? Did you just glue it with Sikaflex or did you put the ss-screws through cabin, Lexan and frame? > I'm a slow learner, therefore: Do you have a picture? > Walter > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > Good to hear how others are dealing with ports. Could have used some ideas, but their in now. here is what I did. > > I puzzled over the best solution for a long while and finally decided that flush-mounting would reduce the chance of breakage. The lexan was installed flush with the cabin, using 1/2" angle iron as an "inside" frame for the lexan. The angle was welded to the inside of the cabin, filled with Sikaflex 291, and the Lexan installed from the outside. A SS frame was installed to cover the junction of the lexan and the cabin side screwed thru the cabin and the lexan, using SS screws. This left the ports flush with the outside of the cabin. The result looks good and they all (29) survived the winter. Note: Drill the holes in the Lexan, way oversize. Lexan has a big expansion/ contraction factor, Looks good. > > Gord > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28699|28686|2012-07-31 15:25:20|Paul Wilson|Re: Chicken bolts.|The bigger the window, the more movement. According to the Sika, a 1 meter window has 4mm of movement so you could work it out from there. If your port was 25 cm long, you would have about 1mm of movement so it is probably just OK. I probably would have gone a little bit bigger with the drill but not much... if you decide to go bigger be careful drilling it. A sharp drill can grab and make a mess. Drill bits on plastic should scrape rather than cut so take a file to the edge of them and go slowly. Paul On 1/08/2012 4:33 a.m., ursus_222 wrote: > > Hey Paul > > I still haven't installed the windows, the PO had drilled the Lexan to > 5/16 for a 1/4" bolt so I what size hole would you recommend? > > Thanks > > Vic. > | 28700|28610|2012-07-31 19:52:53|wild_explorer|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Just came back from painting store (non-marine). Oregon charges "recycling fees" when selling oil-based products. But you still can buy it. Most stores already do not carry oil-based paints. Only oil-based stains for wood. And it becomes harder and harder to find natural products for wood finish and preservation. What is interesting, in North-West areas where wood is used for building old-style environmentally friendly houses (with walls and roofs from logs/shingles/shakes), natural products to preserve wood are quietly being banned... ;))| 28701|28610|2012-07-31 20:13:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|On 1/08/2012 11:52 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Most stores already do not carry oil-based paints. Only oil-based > stains for wood. And it becomes harder and harder to find natural > products for wood finish and preservation. The same thing is happening in New Zealand. I had to go to several stores before I found some oil based varnish last month. Paul| 28702|28610|2012-07-31 20:40:42|martin demers|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|does less oil in paint makes more gasoline at the gas station? or do they use surplus? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:11:44 +1200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept On 1/08/2012 11:52 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Most stores already do not carry oil-based paints. Only oil-based > stains for wood. And it becomes harder and harder to find natural > products for wood finish and preservation. The same thing is happening in New Zealand. I had to go to several stores before I found some oil based varnish last month. Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28703|28610|2012-07-31 22:40:42|wild_explorer|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Most oil-based products for wood are made from non-petroleum oils anyway (most of it from plants)... May be that why politicians do not like it.. Too "green"???? ;))) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > does less oil in paint makes more gasoline at the gas station? or do they use surplus? > | 28704|28704|2012-08-01 11:26:53|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|pilothouse side doors|Does anyone has experience about the sailboat entrance on both sides of the pilothouse(if pilothouse high enough of course) like on a Nauticat. Is it practical,does water comes in more? Martin.| 28705|28704|2012-08-01 12:21:46|Matt Malone|Re: pilothouse side doors|I have no personal experience with a sailboat with side accesses but off-center companionways, yes. The Nauticat I found on google with doors on each side is rated Category "A" Ocean in its marketing. Another reference defines category "A: Ocean" A: Ocean. Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort) and wave height of 4 meter (13' ft). Category D seems to describe my open dingy... I would have preferred more than 3 steps between open dingy and open ocean, but that is the rating system used. I see there is only one Nauticat model they have built like that, the 441. Well, I have to tell you looking at that pilothouse it looks really comfortable, like, all weather, like lets see the Northwest Passage type pilothouse. Those doors on the side are sliding and mounted on the outside of the hull meaning, if hit by a breaking wave, they will apply force around the entire perimeter, perhaps moreso on their tracks or slides. Still they are a big target. One thing I have read several experts say is, always have the hatches / companionway on the midline of the boat. Their thinking has always seemed, in a knock-down, it is likely to let in less water. I do have two sailboats with off-center companion ways. Once one of them ended up on the down side of a bad broach, and the water was too close to the edge of the companion way for comfort. Even one more foot to the center would have been much more comforting. The Nauticat boat with side doors has no mid-line hatch to go from the inside pilot station to the outside station. Remembering that a (temporarily) out of control boat will tend to turn beam to the seas, with breaking surf possible on one side and and extreme heel or knockdown possible on the other, I see the logic in fore-aft centerline access. If one is inside the pilot house and the boat turns beam on, owing to some problem that needs tending on the deck, what side would you prefer to exit on? The weather side of the boat or the lee, heeled-down side? I am not sure I like either option, but at least on the weather side one might see the immediate "weather" and do a quick exit and slam the door shut again. Still climbing up out of a door that is more on the top of the boat than the side can be challenging. I think a forward and aft access on the pilot house would be more useful, and that leaves the side-walls well sealable, even if there are openable ports. Since windows are smaller than doors, the holes on the side of the hull are smaller and everything is more durable, more easily kept structurally stiff. Fore-aft doors do not interrupt the banana-stiffness of the boat as much as side doors would. With a fore-aft door arrangement, if the weather is from the bow, one can either exit reasonably comfortably to the aft using the pilot house profile as cover, or time ones exit toward the fore if needed. If the weather is following, then the opposite. If the weather is from either beam, either fore or aft doors present little cross-section to weather or sea. There is no circumstance I can think of where those doors on the side would be any significant advantage over fore-aft doors. Ok, maybe handing bags of groceries from the dock straight into the boat, but, putting them down in the cockpit or on the deck is not that much extra work, really. They would make nice ventilation on a reach, but so would a window that opens. As nice as the doors look, they look to be on the wrong side to me. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mdemers2005@... Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:26:52 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors Does anyone has experience about the sailboat entrance on both sides of the pilothouse(if pilothouse high enough of course) like on a Nauticat. Is it practical,does water comes in more? Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28706|28704|2012-08-01 12:36:25|martin demers|Re: pilothouse side doors|I forgot the knock down situation, I think it draws the conclusion on my question very quickly the side doors would have allowed a aft livable inside space instead of the cockpit but if it is for less safety it might be a bad idea after all I too have an off center aft entrance on my boat, I might move it more to the center later on Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:21:45 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors > > > > I have no personal experience with a sailboat with side accesses but off-center companionways, yes. > > The Nauticat I found on google with doors on each side is rated Category "A" Ocean in its marketing. > > Another reference defines category "A: Ocean" > > A: Ocean. Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort) and wave height of 4 meter (13' ft). > > Category D seems to describe my open dingy... I would have preferred more than 3 steps between open dingy and open ocean, but that is the rating system used. > > I see there is only one Nauticat model they have built like that, the 441. Well, I have to tell you looking at that pilothouse it looks really comfortable, like, all weather, like lets see the Northwest Passage type pilothouse. > > Those doors on the side are sliding and mounted on the outside of the hull meaning, if hit by a breaking wave, they will apply force around the entire perimeter, perhaps moreso on their tracks or slides. Still they are a big target. > > One thing I have read several experts say is, always have the hatches / > companionway on the midline of the boat. Their thinking has always > seemed, in a knock-down, it is likely to let in less water. I do have two sailboats with off-center companion ways. Once one of them ended up on the down side of a bad broach, and the water was too close to the edge of the companion way for comfort. Even one more foot to the center would have been much more comforting. > > The Nauticat boat with side doors has no mid-line hatch to go from the inside pilot station to the outside station. Remembering that a (temporarily) out of control boat will tend to turn beam to the seas, with breaking surf possible on one side and and extreme heel or knockdown possible on the other, I see the logic in fore-aft centerline access. If one is inside the pilot house and the boat turns beam on, owing to some problem that needs tending on the deck, what side would you prefer to exit on? The weather side of the boat or the lee, heeled-down side? I am not sure I like either option, but at least on the weather side one might see the immediate "weather" and do a quick exit and slam the door shut again. Still climbing up out of a door that is more on the top of the boat than the side can be challenging. > > I think a forward and aft access on the pilot house would be more > useful, and that leaves the side-walls well sealable, even if there are > openable ports. Since windows are smaller than doors, the holes on the > side of the hull are smaller and everything is more durable, more easily kept structurally stiff. Fore-aft doors do not interrupt the banana-stiffness of the boat as much as side doors would. With a fore-aft door arrangement, if the weather is from the bow, one can either exit reasonably comfortably to the aft using the pilot house profile as cover, or time ones exit toward the fore if needed. If the weather is following, then the opposite. If the weather is from either beam, either fore or aft doors present little cross-section to weather or sea. > > There is no circumstance I can think of where those doors on the side would be any significant advantage over fore-aft doors. Ok, maybe handing bags of groceries from the dock straight into the boat, but, putting them down in the cockpit or on the deck is not that much extra work, really. They would make nice ventilation on a reach, but so would a window that opens. > > As nice as the doors look, they look to be on the wrong side to me. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:26:52 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone has experience about the sailboat entrance on both sides of the pilothouse(if pilothouse high enough of course) like on a Nauticat. Is it practical,does water comes in more? > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28707|28686|2012-08-01 14:06:32|ursus_222|Re: Chicken bolts.|Hey Paul Thanks for the response, these windows are huge they are one piece and cover the three side windows, the PO told me there were three separate windows before but if so they filled the holes and I wasn't about too start drilling new ones when I intend to refit and make them all smaller like Brents designs. I will take a file to the holes as they are not big enough. I have to wonder why the builder did some of the things he did on this boat, for example, they didn't use the skeg for cooling instead they filled it with foam! :( If I keep this hull I have to deal with that at some point. Cheers Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The bigger the window, the more movement. According to the Sika, a 1 > meter window has 4mm of movement so you could work it out from there. > If your port was 25 cm long, you would have about 1mm of movement so it > is probably just OK. I probably would have gone a little bit bigger > with the drill but not much... if you decide to go bigger be careful > drilling it. A sharp drill can grab and make a mess. Drill bits on > plastic should scrape rather than cut so take a file to the edge of them > and go slowly. > > Paul > > On 1/08/2012 4:33 a.m., ursus_222 wrote: > > > > Hey Paul > > > > I still haven't installed the windows, the PO had drilled the Lexan to > > 5/16 for a 1/4" bolt so I what size hole would you recommend? > > > > Thanks > > > > Vic. > > > | 28708|28704|2012-08-02 08:27:24|martin demers|FW: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors|The Cromarty 36 did move the skipper position to allow an aft cabin, still maintaining the companionway at the same place,any comments? Martin. From: mdemers2005@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:36:24 -0400 I forgot the knock down situation, I think it draws the conclusion on my question very quickly the side doors would have allowed a aft livable inside space instead of the cockpit but if it is for less safety it might be a bad idea after all I too have an off center aft entrance on my boat, I might move it more to the center later on Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:21:45 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors > > > > I have no personal experience with a sailboat with side accesses but off-center companionways, yes. > > The Nauticat I found on google with doors on each side is rated Category "A" Ocean in its marketing. > > Another reference defines category "A: Ocean" > > A: Ocean. Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort) and wave height of 4 meter (13' ft). > > Category D seems to describe my open dingy... I would have preferred more than 3 steps between open dingy and open ocean, but that is the rating system used. > > I see there is only one Nauticat model they have built like that, the 441. Well, I have to tell you looking at that pilothouse it looks really comfortable, like, all weather, like lets see the Northwest Passage type pilothouse. > > Those doors on the side are sliding and mounted on the outside of the hull meaning, if hit by a breaking wave, they will apply force around the entire perimeter, perhaps moreso on their tracks or slides. Still they are a big target. > > One thing I have read several experts say is, always have the hatches / > companionway on the midline of the boat. Their thinking has always > seemed, in a knock-down, it is likely to let in less water. I do have two sailboats with off-center companion ways. Once one of them ended up on the down side of a bad broach, and the water was too close to the edge of the companion way for comfort. Even one more foot to the center would have been much more comforting. > > The Nauticat boat with side doors has no mid-line hatch to go from the inside pilot station to the outside station. Remembering that a (temporarily) out of control boat will tend to turn beam to the seas, with breaking surf possible on one side and and extreme heel or knockdown possible on the other, I see the logic in fore-aft centerline access. If one is inside the pilot house and the boat turns beam on, owing to some problem that needs tending on the deck, what side would you prefer to exit on? The weather side of the boat or the lee, heeled-down side? I am not sure I like either option, but at least on the weather side one might see the immediate "weather" and do a quick exit and slam the door shut again. Still climbing up out of a door that is more on the top of the boat than the side can be challenging. > > I think a forward and aft access on the pilot house would be more > useful, and that leaves the side-walls well sealable, even if there are > openable ports. Since windows are smaller than doors, the holes on the > side of the hull are smaller and everything is more durable, more easily kept structurally stiff. Fore-aft doors do not interrupt the banana-stiffness of the boat as much as side doors would. With a fore-aft door arrangement, if the weather is from the bow, one can either exit reasonably comfortably to the aft using the pilot house profile as cover, or time ones exit toward the fore if needed. If the weather is following, then the opposite. If the weather is from either beam, either fore or aft doors present little cross-section to weather or sea. > > There is no circumstance I can think of where those doors on the side would be any significant advantage over fore-aft doors. Ok, maybe handing bags of groceries from the dock straight into the boat, but, putting them down in the cockpit or on the deck is not that much extra work, really. They would make nice ventilation on a reach, but so would a window that opens. > > As nice as the doors look, they look to be on the wrong side to me. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:26:52 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone has experience about the sailboat entrance on both sides of the pilothouse(if pilothouse high enough of course) like on a Nauticat. Is it practical,does water comes in more? > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28709|28686|2012-08-02 08:28:20|boatwayupnorth|Re: Chicken bolts.|Gord, thanks. I got it now. Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Walter > Yes and No, the SS frame does 3 things: 1. It covers the Sikaflex interface/seal between the lexan and the steel angle iron, thereby protecting the SikaFlex from the sun and weather. 2. provides some insurance that if the boat is slammed on its' side (into a wave or such) the lexan window will be less likely to be "sucked" out of the frame. 3. It hides the frame/lexan interface and "dresses up" the port. > Gord > > On 2012-07-31, at 4:18 AM, boatwayupnorth wrote: > > > > > > > Gord, is the SS frame just cosmetic? Did you just glue it with Sikaflex or did you put the ss-screws through cabin, Lexan and frame? > > I'm a slow learner, therefore: Do you have a picture? > > Walter > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > > > Good to hear how others are dealing with ports. Could have used some ideas, but their in now. here is what I did. > > > I puzzled over the best solution for a long while and finally decided that flush-mounting would reduce the chance of breakage. The lexan was installed flush with the cabin, using 1/2" angle iron as an "inside" frame for the lexan. The angle was welded to the inside of the cabin, filled with Sikaflex 291, and the Lexan installed from the outside. A SS frame was installed to cover the junction of the lexan and the cabin side screwed thru the cabin and the lexan, using SS screws. This left the ports flush with the outside of the cabin. The result looks good and they all (29) survived the winter. Note: Drill the holes in the Lexan, way oversize. Lexan has a big expansion/ contraction factor, Looks good. > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28710|28704|2012-08-02 11:55:09|Matt Malone|Re: pilothouse side doors|Would you mind providing a link to the best photo of that? The only one I can find: http://easternyachts.com/roanna/index.htm the skipper position is to the port side of the boat -- the wrong side some would argue for good visibility to starboard to see closing boats that have the right of way. I never appreciated how cluttered a Ketch's aft mast makes the cockpit on a 36 until I saw those photos. If I were to build a Brent boat, I would look at what others have done inside a Brent boat, and I would look at this layout, and see how it can be adapted to the size I am building: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/CSY_44_WT.jpg I would sooner have a below-deck hallway that was narrow at the foot level to allow an aft cabin, and center companionway, like that design. In a boat with less beam, there may be no room for lockers on the hull side of the walk-through but there will be a big smooth wall on the side that is toward the centerline. There might be hatches for the engine and other systems under the cockpit. There might be flat-vertical chart storage. There is also the walk-over design even if its companionways are a little off-center: http://svgypsywind.com/CSY%2044%20line%20drawing.jpg After seeing how well space might be used in small boats, keeping things the same size, one can get a lot more in a 36'. If feels like an error to me to provide "roominess" in any dimension other than standing head room -- its is a waste of space that can be used for something else. For instance, the interior passageway in one of my boats is as small as 18" wide and 5' tall and it works for me at 6' and 220 pounds. Granted it works a lot better for small people and is a bit of a pain when moving bulky things fore and aft. In an aft cabin design with a small interior passageway, one might have a larger hatch in the deck over the aft cabin, in the style of a cargo hatch cover so larger items/ cabinetry can be moved in through the deck hole. I also saw an Open 60 design with its engine under the saloon table. It allowed the space for a larger table, and interior access storage in the under-cockpit area. It is way easier to shove a sail or tote under the cockpit than it is to work on an engine there. And the large saloon table makes a very large chart table. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mdemers2005@... Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:27:22 -0400 Subject: FW: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors The Cromarty 36 did move the skipper position to allow an aft cabin, still maintaining the companionway at the same place,any comments? Martin. From: mdemers2005@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:36:24 -0400 I forgot the knock down situation, I think it draws the conclusion on my question very quickly the side doors would have allowed a aft livable inside space instead of the cockpit but if it is for less safety it might be a bad idea after all I too have an off center aft entrance on my boat, I might move it more to the center later on Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:21:45 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors > > > > I have no personal experience with a sailboat with side accesses but off-center companionways, yes. > > The Nauticat I found on google with doors on each side is rated Category "A" Ocean in its marketing. > > Another reference defines category "A: Ocean" > > A: Ocean. Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort) and wave height of 4 meter (13' ft). > > Category D seems to describe my open dingy... I would have preferred more than 3 steps between open dingy and open ocean, but that is the rating system used. > > I see there is only one Nauticat model they have built like that, the 441. Well, I have to tell you looking at that pilothouse it looks really comfortable, like, all weather, like lets see the Northwest Passage type pilothouse. > > Those doors on the side are sliding and mounted on the outside of the hull meaning, if hit by a breaking wave, they will apply force around the entire perimeter, perhaps moreso on their tracks or slides. Still they are a big target. > > One thing I have read several experts say is, always have the hatches / > companionway on the midline of the boat. Their thinking has always > seemed, in a knock-down, it is likely to let in less water. I do have two sailboats with off-center companion ways. Once one of them ended up on the down side of a bad broach, and the water was too close to the edge of the companion way for comfort. Even one more foot to the center would have been much more comforting. > > The Nauticat boat with side doors has no mid-line hatch to go from the inside pilot station to the outside station. Remembering that a (temporarily) out of control boat will tend to turn beam to the seas, with breaking surf possible on one side and and extreme heel or knockdown possible on the other, I see the logic in fore-aft centerline access. If one is inside the pilot house and the boat turns beam on, owing to some problem that needs tending on the deck, what side would you prefer to exit on? The weather side of the boat or the lee, heeled-down side? I am not sure I like either option, but at least on the weather side one might see the immediate "weather" and do a quick exit and slam the door shut again. Still climbing up out of a door that is more on the top of the boat than the side can be challenging. > > I think a forward and aft access on the pilot house would be more > useful, and that leaves the side-walls well sealable, even if there are > openable ports. Since windows are smaller than doors, the holes on the > side of the hull are smaller and everything is more durable, more easily kept structurally stiff. Fore-aft doors do not interrupt the banana-stiffness of the boat as much as side doors would. With a fore-aft door arrangement, if the weather is from the bow, one can either exit reasonably comfortably to the aft using the pilot house profile as cover, or time ones exit toward the fore if needed. If the weather is following, then the opposite. If the weather is from either beam, either fore or aft doors present little cross-section to weather or sea. > > There is no circumstance I can think of where those doors on the side would be any significant advantage over fore-aft doors. Ok, maybe handing bags of groceries from the dock straight into the boat, but, putting them down in the cockpit or on the deck is not that much extra work, really. They would make nice ventilation on a reach, but so would a window that opens. > > As nice as the doors look, they look to be on the wrong side to me. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:26:52 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone has experience about the sailboat entrance on both sides of the pilothouse(if pilothouse high enough of course) like on a Nauticat. Is it practical,does water comes in more? > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28711|28704|2012-08-02 15:21:28|martin demers|Re: pilothouse side doors|Matt I found pictures by googling Cromarty's for sale and the company own's page Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 11:55:07 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors > > > > Would you mind providing a link to the best photo of that? The only one I can find: > > http://easternyachts.com/roanna/index.htm > > the skipper position is to the port side of the boat -- the wrong side some would > argue for good visibility to starboard to see closing boats that have the right of way. > I never appreciated how cluttered a Ketch's aft mast makes the cockpit on a 36 > until I saw those photos. > > If I were to build a Brent boat, I would look at what others have done inside a > Brent boat, and I would look at this layout, and see how it can be adapted > to the size I am building: > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/CSY_44_WT.jpg > > I would sooner have a below-deck hallway that was narrow at the foot level to > allow an aft cabin, and center companionway, like that design. In a boat with > less beam, there may be no room for lockers on the hull side of the walk-through > but there will be a big smooth wall on the side that is toward the centerline. There > might be hatches for the engine and other systems under the cockpit. There > might be flat-vertical chart storage. There is also the walk-over design even if its > companionways are a little off-center: > > http://svgypsywind.com/CSY%2044%20line%20drawing.jpg > > After seeing how well space might be used in small boats, keeping things the > same size, one can get a lot more in a 36'. If feels like an error to me to provide > "roominess" in any dimension other than standing head room -- its is > a waste of space that can be used for something else. For instance, the interior > passageway in one of my boats is as small as 18" wide and 5' tall and it works > for me at 6' and 220 pounds. Granted it works a lot better for small people > and is a bit of a pain when moving bulky things fore and aft. In an aft cabin > design with a small interior passageway, one might have a larger hatch in the > deck over the aft cabin, in the style of a cargo hatch cover so larger items/ > cabinetry can be moved in through the deck hole. > > I also saw an Open 60 design with its engine under the saloon table. It allowed > the space for a larger table, and interior access storage in the under-cockpit > area. It is way easier to shove a sail or tote under the cockpit than it is to > work on an engine there. And the large saloon table makes a very large > chart table. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:27:22 -0400 > Subject: FW: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Cromarty 36 did move the skipper position to allow an aft cabin, still maintaining the companionway at the same place,any comments? > > Martin. > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors > > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:36:24 -0400 > > > > I forgot the knock down situation, I think it draws the conclusion on my question very quickly > > the side doors would have allowed a aft livable inside space instead of the cockpit but if it is for less safety it might be a bad idea after all > > I too have an off center aft entrance on my boat, I might move it more to the center later on > > > > Martin > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: m_j_malone@... > > > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:21:45 -0400 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no personal experience with a sailboat with side accesses but off-center companionways, yes. > > > > > > The Nauticat I found on google with doors on each side is rated Category "A" Ocean in its marketing. > > > > > > Another reference defines category "A: Ocean" > > > > > > A: Ocean. Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort) and wave height of 4 meter (13' ft). > > > > > > Category D seems to describe my open dingy... I would have preferred more than 3 steps between open dingy and open ocean, but that is the rating system used. > > > > > > I see there is only one Nauticat model they have built like that, the 441. Well, I have to tell you looking at that pilothouse it looks really comfortable, like, all weather, like lets see the Northwest Passage type pilothouse. > > > > > > Those doors on the side are sliding and mounted on the outside of the hull meaning, if hit by a breaking wave, they will apply force around the entire perimeter, perhaps moreso on their tracks or slides. Still they are a big target. > > > > > > One thing I have read several experts say is, always have the hatches / > > > companionway on the midline of the boat. Their thinking has always > > > seemed, in a knock-down, it is likely to let in less water. I do have two sailboats with off-center companion ways. Once one of them ended up on the down side of a bad broach, and the water was too close to the edge of the companion way for comfort. Even one more foot to the center would have been much more comforting. > > > > > > The Nauticat boat with side doors has no mid-line hatch to go from the inside pilot station to the outside station. Remembering that a (temporarily) out of control boat will tend to turn beam to the seas, with breaking surf possible on one side and and extreme heel or knockdown possible on the other, I see the logic in fore-aft centerline access. If one is inside the pilot house and the boat turns beam on, owing to some problem that needs tending on the deck, what side would you prefer to exit on? The weather side of the boat or the lee, heeled-down side? I am not sure I like either option, but at least on the weather side one might see the immediate "weather" and do a quick exit and slam the door shut again. Still climbing up out of a door that is more on the top of the boat than the side can be challenging. > > > > > > I think a forward and aft access on the pilot house would be more > > > useful, and that leaves the side-walls well sealable, even if there are > > > openable ports. Since windows are smaller than doors, the holes on the > > > side of the hull are smaller and everything is more durable, more easily kept structurally stiff. Fore-aft doors do not interrupt the banana-stiffness of the boat as much as side doors would. With a fore-aft door arrangement, if the weather is from the bow, one can either exit reasonably comfortably to the aft using the pilot house profile as cover, or time ones exit toward the fore if needed. If the weather is following, then the opposite. If the weather is from either beam, either fore or aft doors present little cross-section to weather or sea. > > > > > > There is no circumstance I can think of where those doors on the side would be any significant advantage over fore-aft doors. Ok, maybe handing bags of groceries from the dock straight into the boat, but, putting them down in the cockpit or on the deck is not that much extra work, really. They would make nice ventilation on a reach, but so would a window that opens. > > > > > > As nice as the doors look, they look to be on the wrong side to me. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:26:52 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] pilothouse side doors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone has experience about the sailboat entrance on both sides of the pilothouse(if pilothouse high enough of course) like on a Nauticat. Is it practical,does water comes in more? > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28712|28686|2012-08-02 15:41:38|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Chicken bolts.|Some pics of Lexan ports. Gord On 2012-07-31, at 8:39 AM, Gord Sent from my iPhone Schnell wrote: > The SS frame covers the Sikaflex joint between the hull and the Lexan. There are 2 screw patterns: the inner ring goes thru the lexan and into the angle iron frame. The outer ring of screws go thru the SS and into the steel cabin side. I didn't take pics of the construction process, but maybe this will explain, Gord > > outside hull > .......................................... SS frame > -hull------^ : ^----Lexan-------^ : ^-----------hull--- > :_^----Lexan-------^_: angle iron frame > ^ ^ > screw screw > > On 2012-07-31, at 4:18 AM, boatwayupnorth wrote: > >> >> >> Gord, is the SS frame just cosmetic? Did you just glue it with Sikaflex or did you put the ss-screws through cabin, Lexan and frame? >> I'm a slow learner, therefore: Do you have a picture? >> Walter >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: >>> >>> Good to hear how others are dealing with ports. Could have used some ideas, but their in now. here is what I did. >>> I puzzled over the best solution for a long while and finally decided that flush-mounting would reduce the chance of breakage. The lexan was installed flush with the cabin, using 1/2" angle iron as an "inside" frame for the lexan. The angle was welded to the inside of the cabin, filled with Sikaflex 291, and the Lexan installed from the outside. A SS frame was installed to cover the junction of the lexan and the cabin side screwed thru the cabin and the lexan, using SS screws. This left the ports flush with the outside of the cabin. The result looks good and they all (29) survived the winter. Note: Drill the holes in the Lexan, way oversize. Lexan has a big expansion/ contraction factor, Looks good. >>> Gord >>> >>> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 28713|28713|2012-08-02 16:02:09|svrogao|steel boat in the tropics|Hello all, I'm new to the forum here and thinking of building a 26'. I see that the majority of these boats originate in the Pacific Northwest and was wondering if anyone has sailed them extensively in the tropics. Do they have a "dutch oven" effect when its really hot out? Thanks. All the best, Gregg Ogden| 28714|28610|2012-08-02 16:02:56|Tom Pee|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Brent, if you prefer to have government healthcare so be it, thats for you, OTOH, if someone wants to take care of themselves, let them keep their own money and choose as they want, BTW, other people should be allowed to work as doctors, lawyers, teachers, whatever they please without having to get approval from the government, another reason many things are expensive.  If you prefer government approved drugs, medical care, justice, doctors, etc... use them, but dont expect everybody else to subsidize you, the bar, medical guilds, pharmacies and the others that live off of forced monopolies.  ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 6:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept   Several doctors, one a former BC Chief medical officer, have told me that 80% of the cost of health care is inactivity and smoking. 80%, not 100%! No matter how healthy one may live, there is still the remaining 20% for which one needs health care. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care of your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away from doctors, stay away  from almost any man made materials- hard to do but they all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, grinding, blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to a degree.  >   > At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which BTW is not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other end you have imaginary creations called states, government, associations, clubs, etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself to perform certain duties you have given up certain liberties, sometimes they conive you into believing free health care is in your interest, sometimes you agree, sometimes it the barrel of the gun; either way you lost freedom and are forced to give up rights and perform those duties thats the other end of the scale it then its just a matter of degree. > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > >   > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > Brent, the first thing I thought after i wrote that was the word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did relate too about 100 years ago.  Need to be careful using  such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown communism, then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel". > >   > > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > >   > > > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.  They are even more liberal than even the US.  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28715|28610|2012-08-02 16:05:41|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 Skeg|With the size of engine in a 26 , you should still have lots of coolant. I once used half inch pipe on a 20 hp diesel, and it had plenty of coolant , even in the Amazon. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Paul ... > > The plans for my 26' show the skeg to be 4" wide at the top, and 2" wide at the bottom. > > Somehow my skeg ended up being 5" wide at the top where it joins the hull; but as Brent said that's probably not a bad thing. It's still 2" wide at the bottom. > > By pure luck my top spacer didn't get in the way of the stern tube; but unfortunately I had positioned them too close to the trailing edge of the skeg, and consequently they were causing big problems when I tried to pull the prop aperture opening together. > > So I had to cut both spacers off (using a plasma torch inserted through the prop aperture opening) prior to pulling together the prop aperture opening. Fortunately, cutting both the spacers out didn't seem to alter the shape of the skeg at all (because, I assume, at that stage it was fully welded to the hull and its shape was locked). > > One looming problem now is that it appears I'm not going to have room between the stern tube (inside the skeg), and the inner wall of the skeg, to push through a 3/4" pipe for the engine coolant intake (which has to go to near the bottom of the skeg.) I think I'll have to flatten the pipe a bit with a hammer (so it will have an oval shape rather than round); but I'm not sure if doing that will affect the flow rate of the engine coolant. > > Anyway, hope this helps! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > ______________________________________________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Just make sure the spacers don't end up in the way of the stern tube. The wider the stronger, as long as it's not wide enough to cause excessive drag. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Cotter wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Brent. > > > > > > Is the placement of the spacer pipes important? Is the width important? > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > On Jul 30, 2012, at 2:47 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > Just scale it off the drawings you have, all of which are drawn to scale. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Cotter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Folks- > > > > > > > > > > Getting back to my project after a few years of interruption. My older 26 plans don't have drawings for the skeg. Would anyone be willing to scan and post the skeg drawings/measurements. I would be most appreciative. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > Paul > ______________________________________________________________ > | 28716|28532|2012-08-02 16:07:07|brentswain38|Re: Zinc primer|Seems to have stuck well enough, epoxy over epoxycop. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Just trying it out. Ask me again, in a week or two. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > does epoxycop sticks to any kind of paint weither coaltar or regular epoxy? > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@ > > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 18:59:49 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I haven't been all that impressed with ablative antifouling. They make harder stuff for offshore and continuous movement, which doesn't work so well when you stop, and softer, which works for weekend cruising,but washes of quickly when you put a lot of miles on. > > > > I have been using Epoxycop with good results. I'm just doing an experiment, with epoxy paint over it to see if it sticks well enough. That would make touching up the bare spots, to stop copper paint contact with bare steel, much easier. . > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hempadur mastic 45880 > > > > > probably not listed in the pleasure boat section but industrial section(commercial boats) > > > > > they also offer antifouling; hempel olympic hi-76600 ,it is an ablative antifouling, it is the only one legal in Canada, they are not allowed to import the other ones they make > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > > > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 05:29:07 +0000 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, could you tell us what exact epoxy's/part number you are talking about? There is a bunch of products there... Hempel's USA site is terrible - hard to find information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hempel.us > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Choose "Marine" tab. Follow the links... There is no complete recommendation what to use. Blah... There is Epoxy Radagram tool which allows to find products, but some links are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found only one shop primer there for marine use (definitely not for DIY): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HEMPEL'S SHOPPRIMER ZS 15890 is a two-component, solvent-borne zinc ethyl silicate shopprimer, designed for automatic spray application. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It looks like Europe has much more choices... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is some self-priming coal tar epoxy, but I could not find exact part #. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > > > > > > > > > > > > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > > > > > > > > > > > > they have offices in B.C. > > > > > > > > > > > > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 28717|28610|2012-08-02 16:13:14|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|Your free enterprise health care system in the US costs ten times as much for a given procedure as it costs for the same procedure in Canada, with our government monopoly system. If the rich are allowed to have their own insurance system, they will no longer have a stake in maintaining a public system, and the public system will be allowed to deteriorate, as has been experienced in Britain. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > Brent, if you prefer to have government healthcare so be it, thats for you, OTOH, if someone wants to take care of themselves, let them keep their own money and choose as they want, BTW, other people should be allowed to work as doctors, lawyers, teachers, whatever they please without having to get approval from the government, another reason many things are expensive.  If you prefer government approved drugs, medical care, justice, doctors, etc... use them, but dont expect everybody else to subsidize you, the bar, medical guilds, pharmacies and the others that live off of forced monopolies.  > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 6:45 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > >   > > Several doctors, one a former BC Chief medical officer, have told me that 80% of the cost of health care is inactivity and smoking. 80%, not 100%! No matter how healthy one may live, there is still the remaining 20% for which one needs health care. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care of your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away from doctors, stay away  from almost any man made materials- hard to do but they all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, grinding, blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to a degree.  > >   > > At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which BTW is not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other end you have imaginary creations called states, government, associations, clubs, etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself to perform certain duties you have given up certain liberties, sometimes they conive you into believing free health care is in your interest, sometimes you agree, sometimes it the barrel of the gun; either way you lost freedom and are forced to give up rights and perform those duties thats the other end of the scale it then its just a matter of degree. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > >   > > > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. > > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). > > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > Brent, the first thing I thought after i wrote that was the word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did relate too about 100 years ago.  Need to be careful using  such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown communism, then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel". > > >   > > > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.ÃÆ'‚  They are even more liberal than even the US.ÃÆ'‚  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > > > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > > > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > > > > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > > > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28718|28713|2012-08-02 16:18:10|Paul Wilson|Re: steel boat in the tropics|Welcome. I spent many years in the tropics in my steel 36. If they are foam insulated, they are drier, quieter and cooler than I believe any other kind of construction. Cheers, Paul On 1/08/2012 2:22 p.m., svrogao wrote: > > Hello all, > I'm new to the forum here and thinking of building a 26'. I see that > the majority of these boats originate in the Pacific Northwest and was > wondering if anyone has sailed them extensively in the tropics. Do > they have a "dutch oven" effect when its really hot out? Thanks. > > All the best, > Gregg Ogden > > | 28719|28713|2012-08-02 16:18:34|brentswain38|Re: steel boat in the tropics|An inch and a half of sprayfoam keeps a steel boat quite cool in the tropics, as does a white paint job. My first steel boat was only sprayfoamed to the gally. Walk into the galley and it felt like a sauna, walk into the insulated part and it felt air conditioned. When my boat was dark green, it got hot in the tropics. Last time I crossed the equator, the decks were beige. I painted them white before sailing home again, and it was a remarkable improvement , like adding air conditioning. Bare aluminium on a friend.s boat got hot enough to burn your feet on. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "svrogao" wrote: > > Hello all, > I'm new to the forum here and thinking of building a 26'. I see that the majority of these boats originate in the Pacific Northwest and was wondering if anyone has sailed them extensively in the tropics. Do they have a "dutch oven" effect when its really hot out? Thanks. > > All the best, > Gregg Ogden > | 28720|28686|2012-08-02 16:22:39|brentswain38|Re: Chicken bolts.|I'd trust sikaflex on recessed plexi , but not on those simply glued to a flush surface. I pounded one out of a recess, and a sledge hammer couldn't get it out, without first cutting the sikaflex. Lexan is a big mistake, as after three years, it fogs up so bad you cant see anything thru it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Good to hear how others are dealing with ports. Could have used some ideas, but their in now. here is what I did. > I puzzled over the best solution for a long while and finally decided that flush-mounting would reduce the chance of breakage. The lexan was installed flush with the cabin, using 1/2" angle iron as an "inside" frame for the lexan. The angle was welded to the inside of the cabin, filled with Sikaflex 291, and the Lexan installed from the outside. A SS frame was installed to cover the junction of the lexan and the cabin side screwed thru the cabin and the lexan, using SS screws. This left the ports flush with the outside of the cabin. The result looks good and they all (29) survived the winter. Note: Drill the holes in the Lexan, way oversize. Lexan has a big expansion/ contraction factor, Looks good. > Gord > > > On 2012-07-30, at 8:04 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > A comment first: > > > > "Consult your supplier for recomended > > thickness of plastic. I used 3/16" (lexan) (4.4mm) for the project > > shown. If using perspex/acrylic, I would have increased that > > to 8mm." > > > > I think mine are 5/16" lexan, and I think even > 5/8" plexi would not feel as secure to me. Also my doghouse windows were short and long, so, I wanted them to have comparable in toughness to the fibreglass around it. > > > > The windows are placed on the outside and would stand external pressures pretty good because of it. "Green" water rushing over the cabin top can exert tremendous suction forces also. I once had an 8 foot surfboard in the wrong part of a wave thrown up by hurricane Allen. About 6 inches of water was flowing over the surface of the board, from behind as I was on the top of the curl. I felt the board break into 3 pieces underneath me to conform to the shape of the curl, before I was tossed head-first in front of the wave. I could see the water on the board was shallow, but its speed gave it extraordinary strength/force. It was a long slow build up to the curl and I had plenty of time to marvel at the broken board feeling its parts vibrate as it broke. It was fascinating. And I did not feel anything other than a really strong current. There was no feeling like I was getting washed off the board or anything. The board was nearly parallel to the flow. The area of the > > board, plus the pressure of the water must have added up to hundreds if not thousands of pounds. I have hear a figure of 85 psi as the pressure of a breaking wave. Well, waves can also cause cavitation, water turning to vapour, boiling due to extreme low pressures. The vapour point, boiling point of water at 20 C is about 17 mmHg out of a total atmospheric pressure of 760 mmHg, so, about 97% or 98% of full vacuum. That is 14.5 pounds per square inch. > > > > Very good silicon has a tensile strength of 350 psi, but a peel strength of only 40 pounds per inch. To pull the window clean off, on a 16"x10" window with 2" of overlap around would require a pull of about 20 tons. Once one edge of the window lifts however, in peel it requires only 160 pounds pull on the free edge to keep it peeling off. That is a ratio of 260 to one advantage in peel. Peel is a very powerful failure mode. The consequence will be, the window is there, then suddenly, it is gone, or it is still there. A reasonably good #10 bolt with washers will hold hundreds of pounds of force each, and the peel is likely to stop at two bolts, one on each side. > > > > Near full vacuum on a 16"x10" window with 2" of overlap around is 4060 pounds of force. If one is very confident that there are no defects in the seal from which a peel crack can start, the silicon alone is about 10 times stronger than it needs to be. If peel starts, water can produce 10 times more suction on the window than is needed to keep the peel going. With even #10 chicken bolts, the ratio is down to probably less than 3 times the load needed to break bolts. If you think there is a chance of cavitation-level suction and peel failure of windows, larger bolts would be a good idea. Even a 3/8" , grade 5 bolt (according to alma bolt) has a proof load of 6600 pounds, so 2 of them will hold more than 3 times the maximum suction force the window can face. If water or gear applies an impact or pressure on the inside of the window, one would have to start calculating all over again. > > > > Chicken bolts are a good idea if you are afraid of peel. If one is really afraid of peel then larger bolts would be needed. Chicken bolts are there to keep it from flying off even if the sealant fails in places. My windows being long and curved, I needed the bolts to form the plastic into the right curve to fit the boat anyway. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: kimdxx@... > > Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 00:31:41 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Chicken bolts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Talking of chicken bolts in windows ... > > > > > > > > This is a guy who used zero mechanical fasteners in his windows: > > > > > > > > http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/windows.html > > > > > > > > Seemed to work OK for him. What do you guys think of this? > > > > > > > > The front and rear windows in my car don't seem to have any mechanical fastenings - they seem to be just sitting on some black mastic stuff. > > > > > > > > However, I'm not sure if I could not put mechanical fastenings around the windows in my boat! > > > > > > > > Cheers ... > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > >> > > > >> I have replaced windows with lexan. I laid the lexan on the outside of the doghouse, bolted through, sealing with bathroom / outdoor silicon. Shortly afterward, there was comment on here never to use silicon as the silicon oil likes to absorb into fibreglass. I suspect that is not a problem on steel. I know silicon works nicely otherwise. I painted my doghouse white, then used white silicon, the silicon visually disappears. I used a 2cm+ lap, and, the bolts were mainly to hold it in place until the silicon hardened, and afterward serve as chicken bolts. Chicken bolts are used by those afraid of peel failure of otherwise really strong adhesive bonds. > > > >> > > > >> What is the full name of "rolls of Butyl". Can you give a link to the product ? I have more windows to do and, I would prefer to avoid silicon this time. > > > >> > > > >> Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 28721|28532|2012-08-02 16:26:51|brentswain38|Re: mold / transducer|I have an abandoned bronze transducer on my boat , well insulated from the hull. It has caused no problems. Any kind of latex works. If you wash it with a mixture of borax and water , when the water evaporates, it leaves a film of borax behind, which stops mold. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 brentswain38@... > > > > > > I painted the  foam insulation with latex, now it's starting to mold.   Would bathroom/ kitchen latex suffice?  Also what is your opinion on bronze and  plastic thru hull transducers on a steel boat?  Aaron > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 3:44:16 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > >   > Just trying it out. Ask me again, in a week or two. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > does epoxycop sticks to any kind of paint weither coaltar or regular epoxy? > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@ > > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 18:59:49 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I haven't been all that impressed with ablative antifouling. They make harder stuff for offshore and continuous movement, which doesn't work so well when you stop, and softer, which works for weekend cruising,but washes of quickly when you put a lot of miles on. > > > > I have been using Epoxycop with good results. I'm just doing an experiment, with epoxy paint over it to see if it sticks well enough. That would make touching up the bare spots, to stop copper paint contact with bare steel, much easier. . > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hempadur mastic 45880 > > > > > probably not listed in the pleasure boat section but industrial section(commercial boats) > > > > > they also offer antifouling; hempel olympic hi-76600 ,it is an ablative antifouling, it is the only one legal in Canada, they are not allowed to import the other ones they make > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: williswildest@ > > > > > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 05:29:07 +0000 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, could you tell us what exact epoxy's/part number you are talking about? There is a bunch of products there... Hempel's USA site is terrible - hard to find information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hempel.us/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Choose "Marine" tab. Follow the links... There is no complete recommendation what to use. Blah... There is Epoxy Radagram tool which allows to find products, but some links are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found only one shop primer there for marine use (definitely not for DIY): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HEMPEL'S SHOPPRIMER ZS 15890 is a two-component, solvent-borne zinc ethyl silicate shopprimer, designed for automatic spray application. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It looks like Europe has much more choices... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is some self-priming coal tar epoxy, but I could not find exact part #. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A freind who used Hempel, said it's as good as Devoe, but much cheaper. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hempel(Danish paint) around $50.00 a gal. when buying 5 gal. can > > > > > > > > > > > > for Hempadur mastic epoxy 77% solids > > > > > > > > > > > > they have offices in B.C. > > > > > > > > > > > > I still dont know if it comes with a beautifull Danish girl to help you roll the paint on your boat.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28722|28704|2012-08-02 16:29:06|brentswain38|Re: pilothouse side doors|If you get pinned down in a knock down, it can be impossible to climb out and release your sheets. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > Does anyone has experience about the sailboat entrance on both sides of the pilothouse(if pilothouse high enough of course) like on a Nauticat. Is it practical,does water comes in more? > > Martin. > | 28723|28532|2012-08-02 20:16:19|wild_explorer|Re: mold / transducer|Mold removal instructions: http://blackmold.awardspace.com/kill-remove-mold.html effective mold removal products include: Bleach Borax Vinegar Ammonia Hydrogen peroxide Detergent Baking soda Tea tree oil Grapefruit seed extract --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I have an abandoned bronze transducer on my boat , well insulated from the hull. It has caused no problems. > Any kind of latex works. If you wash it with a mixture of borax and water , when the water evaporates, it leaves a film of borax behind, which stops mold. > | 28724|28610|2012-08-02 21:43:37|Kim|Re: BS 26 Skeg|Many thanks for the info, Brent. It seems that most small fresh-water-cooled diesels in the 10 to 14 HP range have coolant hoses with an ID of about 3/4" (eg: Beta Marine diesels). In my skeg I think the maximum gap between the stern tube (inside the skeg), and the inner wall of the skeg, is somewhere between 1/2" and 3/4". So by the sound of it I'll be able to confidently flatten the steel water pipe a bit so that it will fit through the gap (or at least that part of the pipe that extends below the stern tube), and at the same time I shouldn't have to worry if the engine's getting enough cold cooling water. Thanks again! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With the size of engine in a 26 , you should still have lots of coolant. I once used half inch pipe on a 20 hp diesel, and it had plenty of coolant , even in the Amazon. > ______________________________________________________________ > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > Hi Paul ... > > > > The plans for my 26' show the skeg to be 4" wide at the top, and 2" wide at the bottom. > > > > Somehow my skeg ended up being 5" wide at the top where it joins the hull; but as Brent said that's probably not a bad thing. It's still 2" wide at the bottom. > > > > By pure luck my top spacer didn't get in the way of the stern tube; but unfortunately I had positioned them too close to the trailing edge of the skeg, and consequently they were causing big problems when I tried to pull the prop aperture opening together. > > > > So I had to cut both spacers off (using a plasma torch inserted through the prop aperture opening) prior to pulling together the prop aperture opening. Fortunately, cutting both the spacers out didn't seem to alter the shape of the skeg at all (because, I assume, at that stage it was fully welded to the hull and its shape was locked). > > > > One looming problem now is that it appears I'm not going to have room between the stern tube (inside the skeg), and the inner wall of the skeg, to push through a 3/4" pipe for the engine coolant intake (which has to go to near the bottom of the skeg.) I think I'll have to flatten the pipe a bit with a hammer (so it will have an oval shape rather than round); but I'm not sure if doing that will affect the flow rate of the engine coolant. > > > > Anyway, hope this helps! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________ | 28725|28610|2012-08-04 18:58:50|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 Skeg|When you hammer it thru ,the skeg side will give a bit before the stern tube does. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Many thanks for the info, Brent. > > It seems that most small fresh-water-cooled diesels in the 10 to 14 HP range have coolant hoses with an ID of about 3/4" (eg: Beta Marine diesels). In my skeg I think the maximum gap between the stern tube (inside the skeg), and the inner wall of the skeg, is somewhere between 1/2" and 3/4". > > So by the sound of it I'll be able to confidently flatten the steel water pipe a bit so that it will fit through the gap (or at least that part of the pipe that extends below the stern tube), and at the same time I shouldn't have to worry if the engine's getting enough cold cooling water. > > Thanks again! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > ______________________________________________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > With the size of engine in a 26 , you should still have lots of coolant. I once used half inch pipe on a 20 hp diesel, and it had plenty of coolant , even in the Amazon. > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Paul ... > > > > > > The plans for my 26' show the skeg to be 4" wide at the top, and 2" wide at the bottom. > > > > > > Somehow my skeg ended up being 5" wide at the top where it joins the hull; but as Brent said that's probably not a bad thing. It's still 2" wide at the bottom. > > > > > > By pure luck my top spacer didn't get in the way of the stern tube; but unfortunately I had positioned them too close to the trailing edge of the skeg, and consequently they were causing big problems when I tried to pull the prop aperture opening together. > > > > > > So I had to cut both spacers off (using a plasma torch inserted through the prop aperture opening) prior to pulling together the prop aperture opening. Fortunately, cutting both the spacers out didn't seem to alter the shape of the skeg at all (because, I assume, at that stage it was fully welded to the hull and its shape was locked). > > > > > > One looming problem now is that it appears I'm not going to have room between the stern tube (inside the skeg), and the inner wall of the skeg, to push through a 3/4" pipe for the engine coolant intake (which has to go to near the bottom of the skeg.) I think I'll have to flatten the pipe a bit with a hammer (so it will have an oval shape rather than round); but I'm not sure if doing that will affect the flow rate of the engine coolant. > > > > > > Anyway, hope this helps! > > > > > > Cheers ... > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > ______________________________________________________________ > | 28726|28713|2012-08-04 19:00:23|Gregg Ogden|Re: steel boat in the tropics|That's what I was hoping to be the case. Onward through the fog! All the best, Gregg On Aug 2, 2012 3:18 PM, "brentswain38" wrote: > ** > > > An inch and a half of sprayfoam keeps a steel boat quite cool in the > tropics, as does a white paint job. My first steel boat was only > sprayfoamed to the gally. Walk into the galley and it felt like a sauna, > walk into the insulated part and it felt air conditioned. > When my boat was dark green, it got hot in the tropics. Last time I > crossed the equator, the decks were beige. I painted them white before > sailing home again, and it was a remarkable improvement , like adding air > conditioning. > Bare aluminium on a friend.s boat got hot enough to burn your feet on. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "svrogao" wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > I'm new to the forum here and thinking of building a 26'. I see that the > majority of these boats originate in the Pacific Northwest and was > wondering if anyone has sailed them extensively in the tropics. Do they > have a "dutch oven" effect when its really hot out? Thanks. > > > > All the best, > > Gregg Ogden > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28727|28713|2012-08-04 19:00:46|svrogao|Re: steel boat in the tropics|That's what I was hoping to be the case. Thanks. Onward through the fog! All the best, Gregg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > An inch and a half of sprayfoam keeps a steel boat quite cool in the tropics, as does a white paint job. My first steel boat was only sprayfoamed to the gally. Walk into the galley and it felt like a sauna, walk into the insulated part and it felt air conditioned. > When my boat was dark green, it got hot in the tropics. Last time I crossed the equator, the decks were beige. I painted them white before sailing home again, and it was a remarkable improvement , like adding air conditioning. > Bare aluminium on a friend.s boat got hot enough to burn your feet on. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "svrogao" wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > I'm new to the forum here and thinking of building a 26'. I see that the majority of these boats originate in the Pacific Northwest and was wondering if anyone has sailed them extensively in the tropics. Do they have a "dutch oven" effect when its really hot out? Thanks. > > > > All the best, > > Gregg Ogden > > > | 28728|28610|2012-08-04 19:01:41|Tom Pee|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|US health care has been socialized for the last 30 years at least, and they  have just been leaching off the remaining payers through HMO insurance.  When they see the government is willing to pay $10,000.00 a day for someone to visit a hospital (and they do pay that much) then they say "the private market can pay that much as well".  Again you fail to see the dialetic: government comes into to a well managed system, destroys it, then comes up with the solution.  You keep talking about millionaires as the problem, when in reality its the government monopoly that is forcing costs to rise.  Let people work as doctors without having to go through the AMA, quit subsidizing healthcare, pay directly rather than having an insurance company or government as the middleman, let people get some real info on healthy living rather than pharmacutical industry propaganda, get rid of the FDA which is holding up breakthroughs and basically in the hands of big pharma and watch as healthcare becomes affordable again.   The only solution you have is socialization and that is not going to solve the problem, as noted before that is just another form of forcing others to subsidize you, bureacracy, insurance companies, doctors, pharmacutical, etc... ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 4:13 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept   Your free enterprise health care system in the US costs ten times as much for a given procedure as it costs for the same procedure in Canada, with our government monopoly system. If the rich are allowed to have their own insurance system, they will no longer have a stake in maintaining a public system, and the public system will be allowed to deteriorate, as has been experienced in Britain. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > Brent, if you prefer to have government healthcare so be it, thats for you, OTOH, if someone wants to take care of themselves, let them keep their own money and choose as they want, BTW, other people should be allowed to work as doctors, lawyers, teachers, whatever they please without having to get approval from the government, another reason many things are expensive.  If you prefer government approved drugs, medical care, justice, doctors, etc... use them, but dont expect everybody else to subsidize you, the bar, medical guilds, pharmacies and the others that live off of forced monopolies.  > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 6:45 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > >   > > Several doctors, one a former BC Chief medical officer, have told me that 80% of the cost of health care is inactivity and smoking. 80%, not 100%! No matter how healthy one may live, there is still the remaining 20% for which one needs health care. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care of your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away from doctors, stay away  from almost any man made materials- hard to do but they all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, grinding, blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to a degree.  > >   > > At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which BTW is not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other end you have imaginary creations called states, government, associations, clubs, etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself to perform certain duties you have given up certain liberties, sometimes they conive you into believing free health care is in your interest, sometimes you agree, sometimes it the barrel of the gun; either way you lost freedom and are forced to give up rights and perform those duties thats the other end of the scale it then its just a matter of degree. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > >   > > > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. > > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). > > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > Brent, the first thing I thought after i wrote that was the word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did relate too about 100 years ago.  Need to be careful using  such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown communism, then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel". > > >   > > > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.ÃÆ'‚  They are even more liberal than even the US.ÃÆ'‚  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > > > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > > > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > > > > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > > > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28729|28729|2012-08-04 19:02:04|svrogao|Sailmaking books|Hello all, I would like the groups opinion on sailmaking books. Is there one book that is head and shoulders above the rest? The definitive book on the craft? Thanks. All the best, Gregg| 28730|28729|2012-08-04 19:04:17|brentswain38|Re: Sailmaking books|You can usualy buy used sails, in almost new condition, for a fraction the cost of materials. So there is no justification in making your own, unless you need something rare , like junk sails. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "svrogao" wrote: > > Hello all, > I would like the groups opinion on sailmaking books. Is there one book that is head and shoulders above the rest? The definitive book on the craft? Thanks. > > All the best, > Gregg > | 28731|28731|2012-08-04 19:05:17|justine yearwood|Aluminum Origami Microyacht|Hi there! In the future I'd like to construct a small, aluminum sailboat via the origami method, twin keel most probably -- this seems to be most conducive to the single chine design, about 20 feet in length, sweep, sculling oars or yuloh 'auxiliary power', and capable of offshore travel. Taking the tried and tested Brent Swain design, shrinking it down in size seems straight-forward enough -- but I'm also hoping to give it a smooth, cambered deck, and internal-type cockpit as well. In the beginning stages of this project, I'm just wondering what others think, and looking for constructive criticisms. Thanks! Rough ideas: http://justineyearwood.wordpress.com/2012/08/04/aluminum-sailboat-sketch\ / http://justineyearwood.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/origami-sailboat-to-be-a\ luminum/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28732|28610|2012-08-04 19:22:41|brentswain38|Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept|I think one of the biggest costs of US health care is the litigation crazy climate there, In Canada ,if you sue someone and lose, you pay your opponent's legal bills, something which doesn't happen often in the US. This drastically reduces the number of law suits here, and thus the cost of insurance, lawyers, court time, etc, compared to the US, a huge burden on the cost of providing health care there. Then , being a private system, the cost of collection agents, and competing insurers trying to load the costs off on each other, and the resulting costs of additional lawyers, court time etc to try collect outstanding fees ,something our one payer system doesn't have. Recent UN studies have shown the average Canadian household is richer than the average US one. With 40 % of the homeless in the US having got there due to unforseen health care needs, something which doesn't happen in Canada, this is probably the main reason for the difference. I think Obama would be far ahead , had he simply reduced the age of eligibility for government medicare, gradually, over time, until it applied to everyone, far less bureaucratic and far less of a learning curve, simply expanding an existing bureaucracy. Unfortunately, like governments every where, he gets his advice from the bureaucrats who have the most to gain form the most bureaucratic route. A former chief BC mnedical officer told me that one of the biggest problems with medicare is doctors are getting increasingly skillful at scamming the system And you say they should be given an even freer hand at scamming the sick and injured, for fun and profit, with even fewer controls, or checks and balances? Ya Right! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > US health care has been socialized for the last 30 years at least, and they  have just been leaching off the remaining payers through HMO insurance.  When they see the government is willing to pay $10,000.00 a day for someone to visit a hospital (and they do pay that much) then they say "the private market can pay that much as well".  Again you fail to see the dialetic: government comes into to a well managed system, destroys it, then comes up with the solution.  You keep talking about millionaires as the problem, when in reality its the government monopoly that is forcing costs to rise.  Let people work as doctors without having to go through the AMA, quit subsidizing healthcare, pay directly rather than having an insurance company or government as the middleman, let people get some real info on healthy living rather than pharmacutical industry propaganda, get rid of the FDA which is holding up breakthroughs and basically in the hands of big > pharma and watch as healthcare becomes affordable again. >   > The only solution you have is socialization and that is not going to solve the problem, as noted before that is just another form of forcing others to subsidize you, bureacracy, insurance companies, doctors, pharmacutical, etc... > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 4:13 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > >   > > Your free enterprise health care system in the US costs ten times as much for a given procedure as it costs for the same procedure in Canada, with our government monopoly system. > If the rich are allowed to have their own insurance system, they will no longer have a stake in maintaining a public system, and the public system will be allowed to deteriorate, as has been experienced in Britain. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > Brent, if you prefer to have government healthcare so be it, thats for you, OTOH, if someone wants to take care of themselves, let them keep their own money and choose as they want, BTW, other people should be allowed to work as doctors, lawyers, teachers, whatever they please without having to get approval from the government, another reason many things are expensive.  If you prefer government approved drugs, medical care, justice, doctors, etc... use them, but dont expect everybody else to subsidize you, the bar, medical guilds, pharmacies and the others that live off of forced monopolies.  > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 6:45 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > >   > > > > Several doctors, one a former BC Chief medical officer, have told me that 80% of the cost of health care is inactivity and smoking. 80%, not 100%! No matter how healthy one may live, there is still the remaining 20% for which one needs health care. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > You have liberty and with that you have responsibility to take care of your self; eat right, sleep enough, exercise, low stress, stay away from doctors, stay away  from almost any man made materials- hard to do but they all have toxins they emit- example ... steel... welding, grinding, blasting, painting... all of those processes are harmful to a degree.  > > >   > > > At one end of the scale you have complete freedom or anarchy (which BTW is not the evil you've been braindirtied to believe), at the other end you have imaginary creations called states, government, associations, clubs, etc... and when you consent and obligate yourself to perform certain duties you have given up certain liberties, sometimes they conive you into believing free health care is in your interest, sometimes you agree, sometimes it the barrel of the gun; either way you lost freedom and are forced to give up rights and perform those duties thats the other end of the scale it then its just a matter of degree. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:34 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > No Tom you, still have things thoroughly mixed up and bass axckwards. > > > Musolini defined Fascism as an alliance between coportations and the govenment, for the benefit of corporations. Public health care is definitely not for the benefit of the corporate , private insurance companies. > > > Socialism is an alliance between the working poeople and the government, for the benefit of the working people( at the expense of the corporations, if need be). > > > One represents the corporations, one represents their employees. They are polar opposites, in theory. Sadly the more extreme they become, past the half way point, the more alike they tend to look. The quickness with which China switched from communism to corporate fascism is a good example. > > > Democratic socialism is nearer the half way point, and thus opposite of Fascism. It is the moderate socialism we have often had in Canadian provinces, and in most European countries, which gave us public medicare, for the benefit of the working class, at the expense of the corporate, insurance company extortionists. > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, the first thing I thought afterÃÆ'‚ i wrote thatÃÆ'‚ was the word liberal/libertarian and how its based on liberty/freedom, which it did relate too aboutÃÆ'‚ 100 years ago.ÃÆ'‚  Need to be careful usingÃÆ'‚  such words today, as currently liberal basically equalls socialist, which if you kick it up a few notches you get facism, what you currently have in the US, another notch up and you got full blown communism,ÃÆ'‚ then as Mao said "law is made at the end of a barrel". > > > > ÃÆ'‚  > > > > One of the hardest things to do is unlearning the garbage I was taught in school and the government controled/subsidized media. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Wednesay, July 25, 2012 7:09 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > "Liberal" comes from the word "Liberty", as in "Statue of Liberty" meaning "freedom". Conservatives, in attacking the word "liberal", and, thus the concept of "liberty" are opposing freedom. No surprises there. Here in Canada, sadly, what they call the Liberal party is often anything but liberal , but a slightly watered down version of right wing conservatism, campaigning as lefties, but governing as right wingers.. > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Your government has nothing to do with the bible unless they are trying to impute the good things it teaches by just talking about it and trying to take credit for it, but as far as I know they dont even do that.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  They are even more liberal than even the US.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  BTW, the queen still runs you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:20 PM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oil paint will be BANNED as of Sept > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > I just found out it is the federal government, the same Corp$ervative government, who wants to build a tar sands, bitumen pipline across BC, and ship toxic bitumen in super tankers thru one of the most pristine, sensitive and dangerous archipelagos in the world, so they can sell it to China, for $15 a barrel less than eastern Canadians pay Nigeria, the middle east and Venezuela for the oil they use. > > > > > So the ban applies across Canada. > > > > > I also read in Lattitude 48 that they have found that, in Puget Sound, where they have banned copper paint, over 65% of the copper in the ocean there comes from vehicle brake shoes. > > > > > Sadly, we are stuck with this loony tune , bible thumping, Corp$ervative government for several more years. Then we will definitly get rid of them. . > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't need to be against the law....all the government needs to do > > > > > > is make it too expensive for the companies to jump through the > > > > > > environmental hoops and they will stop making it voluntarily.... > > > > > > > > > > > > It is so stupid.....do they not realize that every time someone cleans a > > > > > > water based paint brush or roller, the paint ends up going down the drain? > > > > > > > > > > > > In many places, they want to ban copper in bottom paints as > > > > > > well......who knows what effect the replacement biocides will have....or > > > > > > we will all drag more weeds around and use up more fuel. > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2012 9:06 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also violates the charter right to life liberty and security of the > > > > > > > person. I talked to a paint supplier yesterday, and he confirmed it, > > > > > > > after a long rant against government stupidity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28733|28733|2012-08-04 19:59:14|brienhm|Depth meter and transducer|Okay guys, I need to make the penetration for the depth sounder. I don't have the transducer or the indicator. So, my question is: What transducer do I size the penetration for? And how do I mount the transducer? Also, suggestions for the best, (economical digital display), indicator display. Thanks| 28734|28733|2012-08-04 20:56:31|Paul Wilson|Re: Depth meter and transducer|There are probably a ton of different opinions and methods but I put a 1 1/2 inch steel standpipe in the hull with the possibility of a threaded cap in-case the transducer ever got knocked off by a log or something. I prefer a stand alone unit and just used a cheap fishfinder (Eagle/Hummingbird/Garmin) with a plastic thru-hull transducer. You should easily get a 200 foot to 300 foot range with the cheapest of fishfinders if it is installed correctly. If you get a 200 or 50 khz unit there is a wide variety of transducers available. You may have to pay almost as much for the transducer as the fish finder. I used some epoxy bog to fair it in to the hull where it sticks out so there is smooth water flow over it since bubbles and turbulence will reduce performance. If you don't want to buy a thru-hull transducer, it would be possible to mount the transom mount transducer into the standpipe. It will stick out more and be a little more awkward but it could still be epoxied in place. Cheers, Paul On 5/08/2012 11:59 a.m., brienhm wrote: > > Okay guys, I need to make the penetration for the depth sounder. I > don't have the transducer or the indicator. So, my question is: > > What transducer do I size the penetration for? > > And how do I mount the transducer? > > Also, suggestions for the best, (economical digital display), > indicator display. > > Thanks > > | 28736|28733|2012-08-05 00:07:10|brienhm|Re: Depth meter and transducer|Thanks Paul, I see a lot of 2-1/2" threaded transducers but not a lot of 1", (which would be optimal to fit inside of a 1-1/2" stand pipe. What brand transducer did you happen to use, that fit in the 1-1/2" stand pipe. Thanks again. Brien H --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > There are probably a ton of different opinions and methods but I put a 1 > 1/2 inch steel standpipe in the hull with the possibility of a threaded > cap in-case the transducer ever got knocked off by a log or something. I > prefer a stand alone unit and just used a cheap fishfinder > (Eagle/Hummingbird/Garmin) with a plastic thru-hull transducer. You > should easily get a 200 foot to 300 foot range with the cheapest of > fishfinders if it is installed correctly. If you get a 200 or 50 khz > unit there is a wide variety of transducers available. You may have to > pay almost as much for the transducer as the fish finder. I used some > epoxy bog to fair it in to the hull where it sticks out so there is > smooth water flow over it since bubbles and turbulence will reduce > performance. If you don't want to buy a thru-hull transducer, it would > be possible to mount the transom mount transducer into the standpipe. It > will stick out more and be a little more awkward but it could still be > epoxied in place. > > Cheers, Paul > > > On 5/08/2012 11:59 a.m., brienhm wrote: > > > > Okay guys, I need to make the penetration for the depth sounder. I > > don't have the transducer or the indicator. So, my question is: > > > > What transducer do I size the penetration for? > > > > And how do I mount the transducer? > > > > Also, suggestions for the best, (economical digital display), > > indicator display. > > > > Thanks > > > > > | 28737|28733|2012-08-05 01:51:38|Paul Wilson|Re: Depth meter and transducer|Oops, sorry....I used this one (plastic 200 khz version) so it must be a 2 inch standpipe on my boat and not 1 1/2 inch. http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/brochures/P319.pdf I previously had a smaller one and I put it in a block of wood before gluing it in the standpipe. I was lucky and found the P319 for $50 in a used marine chandlery. You could always just cut a hole and put it in but they are best mounted vertical, thus the standpipe and the epoxy bog filling the gap. They sell stainless steel and bronze ones but they are expensive and I prefer plastic. Paul On 5/08/2012 4:07 p.m., brienhm wrote: > > Thanks Paul, I see a lot of 2-1/2" threaded transducers but not a lot > of 1", (which would be optimal to fit inside of a 1-1/2" stand pipe. > > What brand transducer did you happen to use, that fit in the 1-1/2" > stand pipe. > > Thanks again. > > Brien H > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > There are probably a ton of different opinions and methods but I put > a 1 > > 1/2 inch steel standpipe in the hull with the possibility of a threaded > > cap in-case the transducer ever got knocked off by a log or > something. I > > prefer a stand alone unit and just used a cheap fishfinder > > (Eagle/Hummingbird/Garmin) with a plastic thru-hull transducer. You > > should easily get a 200 foot to 300 foot range with the cheapest of > > fishfinders if it is installed correctly. If you get a 200 or 50 khz > > unit there is a wide variety of transducers available. You may have to > > pay almost as much for the transducer as the fish finder. I used some > > epoxy bog to fair it in to the hull where it sticks out so there is > > smooth water flow over it since bubbles and turbulence will reduce > > performance. If you don't want to buy a thru-hull transducer, it would > > be possible to mount the transom mount transducer into the > standpipe. It > > will stick out more and be a little more awkward but it could still be > > epoxied in place. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > On 5/08/2012 11:59 a.m., brienhm wrote: > > > > > > Okay guys, I need to make the penetration for the depth sounder. I > > > don't have the transducer or the indicator. So, my question is: > > > > > > What transducer do I size the penetration for? > > > > > > And how do I mount the transducer? > > > > > > Also, suggestions for the best, (economical digital display), > > > indicator display. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > | 28738|28733|2012-08-05 09:57:31|brienhm|Re: Depth meter and transducer|Thanks Paul, I was actually looking at that same unit. Sounds like the one to get. Brien H --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Oops, sorry....I used this one (plastic 200 khz version) so it must be a > 2 inch standpipe on my boat and not 1 1/2 inch. > > http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/brochures/P319.pdf > > I previously had a smaller one and I put it in a block of wood before > gluing it in the standpipe. I was lucky and found the P319 for $50 in a > used marine chandlery. You could always just cut a hole and put it in > but they are best mounted vertical, thus the standpipe and the epoxy bog > filling the gap. > > They sell stainless steel and bronze ones but they are expensive and I > prefer plastic. > > Paul > > On 5/08/2012 4:07 p.m., brienhm wrote: > > > > Thanks Paul, I see a lot of 2-1/2" threaded transducers but not a lot > > of 1", (which would be optimal to fit inside of a 1-1/2" stand pipe. > > > > What brand transducer did you happen to use, that fit in the 1-1/2" > > stand pipe. > > > > Thanks again. > > > > Brien H > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > There are probably a ton of different opinions and methods but I put > > a 1 > > > 1/2 inch steel standpipe in the hull with the possibility of a threaded > > > cap in-case the transducer ever got knocked off by a log or > > something. I > > > prefer a stand alone unit and just used a cheap fishfinder > > > (Eagle/Hummingbird/Garmin) with a plastic thru-hull transducer. You > > > should easily get a 200 foot to 300 foot range with the cheapest of > > > fishfinders if it is installed correctly. If you get a 200 or 50 khz > > > unit there is a wide variety of transducers available. You may have to > > > pay almost as much for the transducer as the fish finder. I used some > > > epoxy bog to fair it in to the hull where it sticks out so there is > > > smooth water flow over it since bubbles and turbulence will reduce > > > performance. If you don't want to buy a thru-hull transducer, it would > > > be possible to mount the transom mount transducer into the > > standpipe. It > > > will stick out more and be a little more awkward but it could still be > > > epoxied in place. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > On 5/08/2012 11:59 a.m., brienhm wrote: > > > > > > > > Okay guys, I need to make the penetration for the depth sounder. I > > > > don't have the transducer or the indicator. So, my question is: > > > > > > > > What transducer do I size the penetration for? > > > > > > > > And how do I mount the transducer? > > > > > > > > Also, suggestions for the best, (economical digital display), > > > > indicator display. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 28739|28532|2012-08-05 15:51:38|brentswain38|Re: mold / transducer|Mold is another reason for not lining an interior before putting the parts in. If you have built your interior over a plywood lining, getting at mold when it begins to form behind the plywood, is a serious problem. I prefer to build the interior in first, then put panelling over only any foam which is still showing, making it easy to remove if mold forms behind it. There is no need for paneling inside lockers, altho it would be easy to pattern and cut panels and lay them in there, if one wished. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Mold removal instructions: > > http://blackmold.awardspace.com/kill-remove-mold.html > > effective mold removal products include: > > Bleach > Borax > Vinegar > Ammonia > Hydrogen peroxide > Detergent > Baking soda > Tea tree oil > Grapefruit seed extract > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I have an abandoned bronze transducer on my boat , well insulated from the hull. It has caused no problems. > > Any kind of latex works. If you wash it with a mixture of borax and water , when the water evaporates, it leaves a film of borax behind, which stops mold. > > > | 28740|28740|2012-08-06 16:49:30|Doug Jackson|High strength rope on a utility winch?|I'm considering using a high strength (spectra) 7/8" rope on a 20 ton winch instead of wire rope.  Other than the obvious cost difference I'm wondering if it requires flat uniform coils in order to avoid snags that I commonly get using wire rope.  And does it have added issues when there are several layers on the spool, that were wound on under light loads when the final wrap is applied with a heavy load.   I'd appreciate hearing any practical experience. Thanks  Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28741|28740|2012-08-06 18:28:43|john dean|Re: High strength rope on a utility winch?|I wounder why you do not buy the correct size anchors, chain and three strand nylon tails. For shallow water I would have five anchors and five 100 foot lengths of chain each on 2 or 3 hundred feet of nylon. Your boat is large so you need to design the handling gear for 200 pound plus anchors, for your reference my little 32 foot sail boat will drag about once in a 1000 nights at anchor using 45 pound anchors on 100 feet of 5/16 chain with 200 foot tails. My hurricane anchor is  a 3 piece 75 pound on 250 feet of 3/8 chain and 300 feet of 9/16 nylon,  --- On Mon, 8/6/12, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: [origamiboats] High strength rope on a utility winch? To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Monday, August 6, 2012, 4:49 PM I'm considering using a high strength (spectra) 7/8" rope on a 20 ton winch instead of wire rope.  Other than the obvious cost difference I'm wondering if it requires flat uniform coils in order to avoid snags that I commonly get using wire rope.  And does it have added issues when there are several layers on the spool, that were wound on under light loads when the final wrap is applied with a heavy load.   I'd appreciate hearing any practical experience. Thanks  Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28742|28740|2012-08-06 18:54:07|Doug Jackson|Re: High strength rope on a utility winch?|Thanks John.  Not really thinking about anchoring details here.  I'm rebuilding a winch and increasing the flange size from 4" to 8".  I'm worried about spooling something like 3/4" Amsteel onto that spool that is 22.5" wide and only 9 feet from the bow roller so that it goes on cleanly.   I just got off the phone with a salesman that said it needed to be laid on nice in order to avoid problems but that it was not as problematic as wire rope.   So now I'm thinking about dividing the spool with another flange and making the flanges taller, so I can get 600' on it.   But as you brought up anchoring  I'm open to all suggestions.  We are building 180lb anchors, and I'm thinking of about 40 ft of 5/8 chain (maybe 3/4"), then 20 ft of 1.5" nylon as a weak link and something lower cost to chafe, and then our expensive high strength stuff.  And a tag line of the anchor.     Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: john dean To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] High strength rope on a utility winch?   I wounder why you do not buy the correct size anchors, chain and three strand nylon tails. For shallow water I would have five anchors and five 100 foot lengths of chain each on 2 or 3 hundred feet of nylon. Your boat is large so you need to design the handling gear for 200 pound plus anchors, for your reference my little 32 foot sail boat will drag about once in a 1000 nights at anchor using 45 pound anchors on 100 feet of 5/16 chain with 200 foot tails. My hurricane anchor is  a 3 piece 75 pound on 250 feet of 3/8 chain and 300 feet of 9/16 nylon,  --- On Mon, 8/6/12, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: [origamiboats] High strength rope on a utility winch? To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Monday, August 6, 2012, 4:49 PM I'm considering using a high strength (spectra) 7/8" rope on a 20 ton winch instead of wire rope.  Other than the obvious cost difference I'm wondering if it requires flat uniform coils in order to avoid snags that I commonly get using wire rope.  And does it have added issues when there are several layers on the spool, that were wound on under light loads when the final wrap is applied with a heavy load.   I'd appreciate hearing any practical experience. Thanks  Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28743|28740|2012-08-06 19:21:08|Paul Wilson|Re: High strength rope on a utility winch?|Doug, you might want to try one of the four-wheel drive groups. They use amsteel blue or similar on their drum winches and they can probably tell you how well it winds in on a drum. It must work since it is advertised everywhere now as a replacement over wire. I have had the wire cut and bury in to previous wraps when there has been an extreme load on the winch which can kink the wire when you try to pull it back out. In normal practice you take it fairly easy when reeling it in and use a snubber at anchor so this is pretty rare. I think chafing over the bow roller will be your biggest issue in storms and chafing when around rocks and coral. Personally, I would stick with wire if I could. Paul| 28744|28740|2012-08-06 19:54:09|Robert Jones|Re: High strength rope on a utility winch?|My experience with high tensile rope is limited to large winches on 4wd offroad vehicles. We use up to 1/2 on a 20K hydraulic winch. We love it. Have never broken it on a straight pull. We have used up to 400 feet with excellent success. Will wear over time, as will steel. Almost NO stretch and therefore little lashback when it does break, or i say is cut by a sharp obstacle. Not sure about sun, as we usually cover our winches when not in service. Check with manufacturer on sun degredation. If used very seldom, When you think of extra cost, i would ask if you have ever seen the damage a broken cable can do? Not to mention the danger to life and limb. I like the rope! regards, robert --- On Mon, 8/6/12, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: [origamiboats] High strength rope on a utility winch? To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Monday, August 6, 2012, 2:49 PM   I'm considering using a high strength (spectra) 7/8" rope on a 20 ton winch instead of wire rope.  Other than the obvious cost difference I'm wondering if it requires flat uniform coils in order to avoid snags that I commonly get using wire rope.  And does it have added issues when there are several layers on the spool, that were wound on under light loads when the final wrap is applied with a heavy load.   I'd appreciate hearing any practical experience. Thanks  Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28745|28745|2012-08-06 22:40:51|Kim|Prop aperture flats.|Hi Brent ... I managed to get most of the skeg's prop aperture pulled together; but unfortunately there was no way I could pull together the very top portion of it. It was just way too close to the hull. Had I moved the overall prop aperture cutout down a bit, away from the hull, would have increased the prop shaft angle, and I didn't really want to do that. You said in a message last month that it's possible to "leave the top and bottom of the aperture as is, after the cut out, and put a flat, horizontal plate there". Well, the bottom of the prop aperture pulled together OK; but I had to put a flat plate at the top. Is this what you meant ... http://tinyurl.com/aperture-flat Hopefully I've done the right thing! Prop will be 13" diameter, its max speed will be 1,000RPM (via a 3:1 gearbox), and its tip clearance in the aperture (17" high) will be 15%. Do you think the prop wash is likely to "pound" against that flat area at the top of the aperture? Cheers ... Kim. __________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > You could leave the top and bottom of the aperture as is, after the cut out, and put a flat, horizontal plate there, and only have to pull the front of the aperture to a point. Makes it much easier. > > __________________________________________ | 28746|28740|2012-08-07 10:45:54|Doug Jackson|Re: High strength rope on a utility winch?|Thanks Paul. You're right. I found a lot of 4W dive folks using it.  And they spool it cleanly just like wire.   If I add 32" diameter flanges with only 5" separation then according to Ingersoll Rand's drum capacity estimator, is should   load on nicely with only 8' from the bow roller to the spool.   That should work out nicely because if it do that on each end of the spool, I can store rode for two anchors and it offsets the rode on either side of the forward mast.  And if money is a problem then it will work well for wire too.   And the sales guy warned about the condition of the bow roller too.    Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] High strength rope on a utility winch?   Doug, you might want to try one of the four-wheel drive groups. They use amsteel blue or similar on their drum winches and they can probably tell you how well it winds in on a drum. It must work since it is advertised everywhere now as a replacement over wire. I have had the wire cut and bury in to previous wraps when there has been an extreme load on the winch which can kink the wire when you try to pull it back out. In normal practice you take it fairly easy when reeling it in and use a snubber at anchor so this is pretty rare. I think chafing over the bow roller will be your biggest issue in storms and chafing when around rocks and coral. Personally, I would stick with wire if I could. Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28747|28747|2012-08-10 00:12:37|wild_explorer|Practical simplicity of origami construction|Origami boat construction design is "to do it on the field by one man", and it is need to be done that simple way. I was welding extensions to the pattern... Steel was unloaded on a dunnage and I was thinking it could simplify things. There are some benefits in it, but... - It is easier to do precise leveling/join of the extensions and the main plate. And.. That about it... No others benefits, just complications. Finally, I got tired of doing it slow... I lost several days by "playing around" and I had decided to removed all dunnage and drop the pattern on the ground. It is MUCH EASIER to work with it this way. Think about trying to join two thin sheets of paper on some supports - pretty hard. Now, put it on a relatively flat surface - much easier. Benefits of laying pattern on a ground: - Move extensions just with a crowbar - "Self aligning" of main pattern and extensions. "Final aligning" with small piece of heavy plate just stepping on it or with some "shims" on outside edge. - Easy to walk on the pattern I was using 3/32 E6013 electrode for short (about 1 inch) tacks. Because of low penetration of this electrode, it requires to make a grove in butt joint or it will not stick to the plate (even welding with about MAX current 85-90A DC) over weld-trough zinc primer. Final weld on 1 side with E7018 looks OK, but needs a grove too. Brent recommends to use E6011 electrode, and I believe, it is better choice over all for origami construction. It has deep penetration and will save time on edge preparation - no need to do it. It should have enough penetration for welding even butt joint. It requires less current than E6013 or E7018. I just got E6013 (3/32, 1/8, 5/32) and 1/8 E7018 cheaper than I could get 1/8 E6011. Remember, that first pass on the pipes is done with E6011, next ones with another specified electrode. I think it is done for a reason ;))| 28748|3465|2012-08-10 09:05:46|chris123|Steel Mast|Greets: Following this list Ive read that several use steel pipe as a mast system. Was wondering where I could get more general or specific information on this subject: such as length to weight ration, schedule of pipe used, materials composition, issues short or long term etc etc. Its an interesting option. Best regards -- /ch| 28749|3465|2012-08-10 10:20:25|wild_explorer|Re: Steel Mast|Use "advanced search" function of this group. "Steel mast" subject was started around 2001. In 2010 it was very detailed discussion in "Steel mast for 40 footer" (choice of the masts, how to calculate steel mast and what tubing profiles is possible to use beside pipes). There are a lot of links in those messages. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Greets: > > Following this list Ive read that several use steel pipe as a mast > system. Was wondering where I could get more general or specific > information on this subject: such as length to weight ration, schedule > of pipe used, materials composition, issues short or long term etc > etc. Its an interesting option. > > Best regards > > -- > /ch > | 28750|3465|2012-08-10 16:08:20|chris123|Re: Steel Mast|Thanks Wild_ will do. The last time I used yahoo search is was something less then desirable. Hence thought it best to ask. Its certainly is an option I would think if its calculated out thoroughly for a steel vessel. Best regards and thanks. /ch On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:20 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > ** > > > Use "advanced search" function of this group. "Steel mast" subject was > started around 2001. In 2010 it was very detailed discussion in "Steel mast > for 40 footer" (choice of the masts, how to calculate steel mast and what > tubing profiles is possible to use beside pipes). There are a lot of links > in those messages. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > wrote: > > > > Greets: > > > > Following this list Ive read that several use steel pipe as a mast > > system. Was wondering where I could get more general or specific > > information on this subject: such as length to weight ration, schedule > > of pipe used, materials composition, issues short or long term etc > > etc. Its an interesting option. > > > > Best regards > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28751|28745|2012-08-10 16:40:17|brentswain38|Re: Prop aperture flats.|Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Looks good. Shouyldnt be any problems as you only get pounding with a flat area in front of the prop. Weld a vertical piece of 1/4 inch by 1 ich stainless flat bar with a couple of 1/4 inch holes in it ,to the V in front of the prop, to bolt a line cutter blade to. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Brent ... > > I managed to get most of the skeg's prop aperture pulled together; but unfortunately there was no way I could pull together the very top portion of it. It was just way too close to the hull. > > Had I moved the overall prop aperture cutout down a bit, away from the hull, would have increased the prop shaft angle, and I didn't really want to do that. > > You said in a message last month that it's possible to "leave the top and bottom of the aperture as is, after the cut out, and put a flat, horizontal plate there". Well, the bottom of the prop aperture pulled together OK; but I had to put a flat plate at the top. > > Is this what you meant ... > > http://tinyurl.com/aperture-flat > > Hopefully I've done the right thing! > > Prop will be 13" diameter, its max speed will be 1,000RPM (via a 3:1 gearbox), and its tip clearance in the aperture (17" high) will be 15%. Do you think the prop wash is likely to "pound" against that flat area at the top of the aperture? > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > __________________________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > You could leave the top and bottom of the aperture as is, after the cut out, and put a flat, horizontal plate there, and only have to pull the front of the aperture to a point. Makes it much easier. > > > > > __________________________________________ > | 28752|28740|2012-08-10 16:50:04|brentswain38|Re: High strength rope on a utility winch?|One can build a half dozen good anchors for the cost of buying one. Why would someone who builds his own steel boat, pay someone else to weld up his anchors for him? The usefulnes of chain depends on where you cruise. In the tropics, I use wire rope, far stronger than chain, and takes up far less space on a drum. Here in BC I use only 15t feet of chain on braided nylon, which is immune to the hocking of three strand. Five anchors is a good minimum for cruysing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john dean wrote: > > I wounder why you do not buy the correct size anchors, chain and three strand nylon tails. For shallow water I would have five anchors and five 100 foot lengths of chain each on 2 or 3 hundred feet of nylon. > Your boat is large so you need to design the handling gear for 200 pound plus anchors, for your reference my little 32 foot sail boat will drag about once in a 1000 nights at anchor using 45 pound anchors on 100 feet of 5/16 chain with 200 foot tails. My hurricane anchor is  a 3 piece 75 pound on 250 feet of 3/8 chain and 300 feet of 9/16 nylon,  > > --- On Mon, 8/6/12, Doug Jackson wrote: > > From: Doug Jackson > Subject: [origamiboats] High strength rope on a utility winch? > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Date: Monday, August 6, 2012, 4:49 PM > > I'm considering using a high strength (spectra) 7/8" rope on a 20 ton winch instead of wire rope.  Other than the obvious cost difference I'm wondering if it requires flat uniform coils in order to avoid snags that I commonly get using wire rope.  And does it have added issues when there are several layers on the spool, that were wound on under light loads when the final wrap is applied with a heavy load.   I'd appreciate hearing any practical experience. > > Thanks  > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28753|28244|2012-08-10 17:24:52|martin demers|Re: Painting Systems|Brent, Should I use 2 coats of epoxy under water lane if I use regular epoxy ( not tar epoxy) and how many coats of epoxycop do you recommend? Thanks, Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:15:15 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Painting Systems As welded on zincs give you all the protection you need below the waterline, paint there doesn't have to be as thick as above. It just insulates the copper paint from the steel . Two coats of epoxy tar, or wasser tar is all you need. If you use epoxy, best put your antifouling on while the last coat is wet, for a good bond. I like epoxycop, an epoxy based antifouling. Ablative for offshore is too stiff to work for short coastal cruising, stuff desiged for weekenders washes off to quickly on long passages. With hard epoxy based antiofouling, you can scrub it without washing it off. I'm not impressed with ablatives. For topsides and decks, I used 5 coats of epoxy tar, 30 gallons on my 31 footer. The thicker the better. If you can still see the weld pattern , it's not thick enough. If you have rust problems in the middle of a flat surface, the paint is not thick enough. My paint job is 28 years old and the only corrosion I've seen is where it has been chipped . The rest is as good as the day I put it on. Over epoxy I put oil based enamel, while the epoxy was still wet. The epoxy tar bled thru the first couple of coats. Let that harden for a couple of weeks. Then you can put whatever colour you want over it, even white, and it won't bleed thru. Urethane over epoxy tar gives you a much harder surface, but is more difficult to paint over and touch up. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Greets: > > Total nubie so pardon the question if its old. > > Paint > > 1. What is the recommended painting system below the water line. > > 2. What is the recommended painting system for top sides and decks > > The interior Ive come to understand is best treated with an epoxy tar > based product then insulated. > > Best and kind regards > > > -- > /ch > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28754|3465|2012-08-10 17:34:21|Kim|Re: Steel Mast|Hi Chris ... Yes, the Yahoo search engine for these groups can be a bit iffy. Sometimes it's easier to just use Google to search this group's messages. For example, if you type this into Google ... "steel masts" site:groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ ... you'll get over 200 relevant hits. Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Thanks Wild_ will do. The last time I used yahoo search is was something > less then desirable. Hence thought it best to ask. Its certainly is an > option I would think if its calculated out thoroughly for a steel vessel. > > Best regards and thanks. > > /ch > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:20 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > ** > > > > Use "advanced search" function of this group. "Steel mast" subject was > > started around 2001. In 2010 it was very detailed discussion in "Steel mast > > for 40 footer" (choice of the masts, how to calculate steel mast and what > > tubing profiles is possible to use beside pipes). There are a lot of links > > in those messages. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > > wrote: > > > > > > Greets: > > > > > > Following this list Ive read that several use steel pipe as a mast > > > system. Was wondering where I could get more general or specific > > > information on this subject: such as length to weight ration, schedule > > > of pipe used, materials composition, issues short or long term etc > > > etc. Its an interesting option. > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > -- > > > /ch ______________________________________________________________ | 28755|28745|2012-08-10 17:38:14|Kim|Re: Prop aperture flats.|Many thanks Brent! Great idea for the line-cutter setup. I'll do that too. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Looks good. Shouyldnt be any problems as you only get pounding with a flat area in front of the prop. Weld a vertical piece of 1/4 inch by 1 inch stainless flat bar with a couple of 1/4 inch holes in it ,to the V in front of the prop, to bolt a line cutter blade to. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent ... > > > > I managed to get most of the skeg's prop aperture pulled together; but unfortunately there was no way I could pull together the very top portion of it. It was just way too close to the hull. > > > > Had I moved the overall prop aperture cutout down a bit, away from the hull, would have increased the prop shaft angle, and I didn't really want to do that. > > > > You said in a message last month that it's possible to "leave the top and bottom of the aperture as is, after the cut out, and put a flat, horizontal plate there". Well, the bottom of the prop aperture pulled together OK; but I had to put a flat plate at the top. > > > > Is this what you meant ... > > > > http://tinyurl.com/aperture-flat > > > > Hopefully I've done the right thing! > > > > Prop will be 13" diameter, its max speed will be 1,000RPM (via a 3:1 gearbox), and its tip clearance in the aperture (17" high) will be 15%. Do you think the prop wash is likely to "pound" against that flat area at the top of the aperture? > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > __________________________________________ > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > You could leave the top and bottom of the aperture as is, after the cut out, and put a flat, horizontal plate there, and only have to pull the front of the aperture to a point. Makes it much easier. > > > > > > > > __________________________________________ | 28756|28244|2012-08-10 18:37:11|(no author)|(no subject)|This gives you the idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPEt9K3wc5o Paul On 11/08/2012 9:24 a.m., martin demers wrote: > Brent, > > Should I use 2 coats of epoxy under water lane if I use regular epoxy ( not tar epoxy) > and how many coats of epoxycop do you recommend? > > Thanks, Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:15:15 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Painting Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As welded on zincs give you all the protection you need below the waterline, paint there doesn't have to be as thick as above. It just insulates the copper paint from the steel . Two coats of epoxy tar, or wasser tar is all you need. If you use epoxy, best put your antifouling on while the last coat is wet, for a good bond. I like epoxycop, an epoxy based antifouling. Ablative for offshore is too stiff to work for short coastal cruising, stuff desiged for weekenders washes off to quickly on long passages. With hard epoxy based antiofouling, you can scrub it without washing it off. I'm not impressed with ablatives. > > For topsides and decks, I used 5 coats of epoxy tar, 30 gallons on my 31 footer. The thicker the better. If you can still see the weld pattern , it's not thick enough. If you have rust problems in the middle of a flat surface, the paint is not thick enough. My paint job is 28 years old and the only corrosion I've seen is where it has been chipped . The rest is as good as the day I put it on. > > Over epoxy I put oil based enamel, while the epoxy was still wet. The epoxy tar bled thru the first couple of coats. Let that harden for a couple of weeks. Then you can put whatever colour you want over it, even white, and it won't bleed thru. Urethane over epoxy tar gives you a much harder surface, but is more difficult to paint over and touch up. . > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > >> Greets: >> Total nubie so pardon the question if its old. >> Paint >> 1. What is the recommended painting system below the water line. >> 2. What is the recommended painting system for top sides and decks >> The interior Ive come to understand is best treated with an epoxy tar >> based product then insulated. >> Best and kind regards >> -- >> /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 28757|28244|2012-08-10 18:39:44|Paul Wilson|Re: Painting Systems|Weird...the beginning of my message was cut off....trying again. Sorry for butting in.... There are many, many types of epoxy now....some are high solids content (100%) and some are as low as 40% with a lot of volatile solvents which evaporate so I would follow the manufacturers directions for thickness. Use one of the disposable paint thickness guages to make sure you are applying it as directed. I found that sometimes I thought what I was putting on thick with a roller was actually quite thin. The gauges take out the guesswork and the paint stores normally give them out for free. This gives you the idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPEt9K3wc5o Paul| 28758|3465|2012-08-10 20:20:13|wild_explorer|Re: Steel Mast|Yeah.... Yahoo Group's advance search http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/msearch_adv is NOT very intuitive, but seems to work now. Just pick some message and try to find it with advance search. After playing with it for while you will be able to use it to find what you need. Do not be surprised if you are not able to find it first (or more) time/times ;)) Try to find messages posted by Brent in this group - almost 3900 ;))). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Chris ... > > Yes, the Yahoo search engine for these groups can be a bit iffy. Sometimes it's easier to just use Google to search this group's messages. For example, if you type this into Google ... > > "steel masts" site:groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > ... you'll get over 200 relevant hits. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > ______________________________________________________________ > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > > > Thanks Wild_ will do. The last time I used yahoo search is was something > > less then desirable. Hence thought it best to ask. Its certainly is an > > option I would think if its calculated out thoroughly for a steel vessel. > > > > Best regards and thanks. > > > > /ch > > > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:20 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > Use "advanced search" function of this group. "Steel mast" subject was > > > started around 2001. In 2010 it was very detailed discussion in "Steel mast > > > for 40 footer" (choice of the masts, how to calculate steel mast and what > > > tubing profiles is possible to use beside pipes). There are a lot of links > > > in those messages. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Greets: > > > > > > > > Following this list Ive read that several use steel pipe as a mast > > > > system. Was wondering where I could get more general or specific > > > > information on this subject: such as length to weight ration, schedule > > > > of pipe used, materials composition, issues short or long term etc > > > > etc. Its an interesting option. > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > > > -- > > > > /ch > ______________________________________________________________ > | 28759|28759|2012-08-11 22:35:13|Mark Hamill|Painting Systems--CopperPoxy|Going through my piles of paper (she's behind me with a gun so don't snicker!!) and I found installation instructions for CopperPoxy from the original item in 1995. If anyone wants will send. I installed it then and I think will do again as I have enough copper powder to do the boat--I think. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28760|28759|2012-08-12 01:28:30|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Painting Systems--CopperPoxy|Mark. Definitely interested. Thanks gord Sent from my iPhone On 2012-08-11, at 7:35 PM, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > Going through my piles of paper (she's behind me with a gun so don't snicker!!) and I found installation instructions for CopperPoxy from the original item in 1995. If anyone wants will send. I installed it then and I think will do again as I have enough copper powder to do the boat--I think. MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28761|28759|2012-08-12 09:13:08|m riley|Re: Painting Systems--CopperPoxy|please post in the files section mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28762|28759|2012-08-13 10:42:54|JOHN|Re: Painting Systems--CopperPoxy|Interested please post. Thanks John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Going through my piles of paper (she's behind me with a gun so don't snicker!!) and I found installation instructions for CopperPoxy from the original item in 1995. If anyone wants will send. I installed it then and I think will do again as I have enough copper powder to do the boat--I think. MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28763|28729|2012-08-13 10:43:29|Trisailing|Re: Sailmaking books|I would suggest "The Sailmakers Apprentice" by Emiliano Marino. ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium| 28764|28759|2012-08-13 14:47:05|Mark Hamill|Re: Painting Systems--CopperPoxy|Recieved this reply to my enquiry about haow much of the Copper Compund 425 to put in the epoxy. Will post other info in files when I can scan. Mark, It is mixed at the same rate as our 422 Barrier Coat Additive. Add to mixed resin/hardener at the rate of 15 to20% by volume or 3 tablespoons per 8 fl oz of epoxy. You can add more if you like it just gets hard to do anything with so we usually go to 404 filler if we want it thicker. Best Regards,Greg Bull, Technical Advisor, Gougeon Brothers, Inc. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28765|28765|2012-08-14 05:09:11|Kim|Pintles, gaps and draining.|Hi Brent and everyone ... 3 construction questions! Would be grateful for any advice from you guys on: 1) In order to maintain the hydrodynamic relationship between the skeg and the rudder, what is the maximum allowable gap between the trailing edge of the skeg and the leading edge of the rudder? 2) For the 26-footer, what would be a suitable diameter for the SS round bar that form the rudder pintles? Would 3/4" (19mm) be strong enough? Maybe 7/8" (22mm)? A 1" (25mm) diameter RB sort of looks too big for this boat. 3) I assume that from time to time the engine coolant mix in the skeg would need to be replaced. (How often? About once every year?) How do you guys get the old coolant out? Have you put a drain plug (with a sealing bolt) near the skeg's baseplate? I guess the easiest way would be to temporarily drop the engine's coolant outlet hose into the cockpit, and run the motor; but that may not remove any sludge that might be right at the bottom of the skeg. (My inlet pipe ends some inches above the baseplate.) OTOH an exterior drain plug might allow more efficient "flushing"; but could be just one more external fitting to worry about. Many thanks! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________| 28766|28766|2012-08-15 11:10:05|Lara|Interior paints|Hello folks! I am looking for some opinions on paints. I am sandblasting the rust out of the interior of my sailboat, and was thinking i would not blast it to white metal, just going after the rust and then giving the existing paint an anchor to paint over. So my question is given the choice of these four paints what has worked for people? 1:Pettit 6980 Rustloc steel primer (us$89.77 per. gal.) 2:Amercoat 302 ($125 kit) 3:Amercoat 235 ($76.55 kit) 4:sherwin -williams TarGuard tar epoxy ($29 gal.) I would assume whatever paint i go with, i would do at least three coats. I know Brentrecommends epoxy coal tar, but is the coal tar as effective with out the zinc primer? Would it be worth it or necessary to blast it down to white metal to do the job properly? I have a house airless sprayer i can use, though i assume with the coal tar i would have to roller it on. I will be foam insulating it after. Thanks and i hope your all out enjoying these summer winds -Lara P.S. If any of you folks live in the Port Townsend area and would like to hangout and talk metal boat jargon please contact me or if any of you B.C.ers decide to leave your beloved stomping grounds and decided to sail down make, sure to stop by!| 28767|28766|2012-08-15 11:22:32|Mark Hamill|Re: Interior paints|I have been using a rust converter on rusted areas. There were some large sections of rust treated with the converter (boat and car) that have been exposed to the weather for about a year now and no signs of re-rusting on them--and before you get into a discussion of whether they are any good--most of reputable paint companies are making them--I know its relatively new and change is difficult but they seem to work. I plan to cover some areas with epoxy for fairing and others with just paint. MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: Lara To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 1:35 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Interior paints Hello folks! I am looking for some opinions on paints. I am sandblasting the rust out of the interior of my sailboat, and was thinking i would not blast it to white metal, just going after the rust and then giving the existing paint an anchor to paint over. So my question is given the choice of these four paints what has worked for people? 1:Pettit 6980 Rustloc steel primer (us$89.77 per. gal.) 2:Amercoat 302 ($125 kit) 3:Amercoat 235 ($76.55 kit) 4:sherwin -williams TarGuard tar epoxy ($29 gal.) I would assume whatever paint i go with, i would do at least three coats. I know Brentrecommends epoxy coal tar, but is the coal tar as effective with out the zinc primer? Would it be worth it or necessary to blast it down to white metal to do the job properly? I have a house airless sprayer i can use, though i assume with the coal tar i would have to roller it on. I will be foam insulating it after. Thanks and i hope your all out enjoying these summer winds -Lara P.S. If any of you folks live in the Port Townsend area and would like to hangout and talk metal boat jargon please contact me or if any of you B.C.ers decide to leave your beloved stomping grounds and decided to sail down make, sure to stop by! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28768|28765|2012-08-15 16:32:55|Paul Wilson|Re: Pintles, gaps and draining.|Hi Kim, Nobody else has answered you so I will add my 2 cents. 1. I wouldn't worry about the gap. A little water flowing through may help in keeping the foil shape of the rudder from stalling. I think Brent writes about this in his book? I can't find my copy. There is a huge gap in airplane wings between the flaps and the wing when the flaps are down. It looks funny but it is aerodynamically efficient. 2. Not sure about a 26 but if in doubt go big. The biggest load will be from a crashing wave coming from the side and throwing the boat when you are offshore. Or grounding on something. You will get used to how it looks. I know of a guy with a 35 foot catamaran who has lost about 10 rudders now. He "beefed them up" to 1/2 inch pintles. I had to laugh. 3. Antifreeze will last many years. It is the acids that build up in the antifreeze that eventually cause damage. I changed mine about once every 5 years but there are some old postings on checking ph level with a litmus strip so I will only change it now if it gets out of whack. A ph level of 9.8 to 10.2 is apparently ideal and change it if it goes below 9.0. If you use antifreeze, you should have minimum scaling and deposits. If you want to change it, just use a portable pump to get it out. You could use a hose to really flush it out if you want but I have never noticed any problems in 20 years. Cheers, Paul On 14/08/2012 9:09 p.m., Kim wrote: > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > 3 construction questions! Would be grateful for any advice from you > guys on: > > 1) In order to maintain the hydrodynamic relationship between the skeg > and the rudder, what is the maximum allowable gap between the trailing > edge of the skeg and the leading edge of the rudder? > > 2) For the 26-footer, what would be a suitable diameter for the SS > round bar that form the rudder pintles? Would 3/4" (19mm) be strong > enough? Maybe 7/8" (22mm)? A 1" (25mm) diameter RB sort of looks too > big for this boat. > > 3) I assume that from time to time the engine coolant mix in the skeg > would need to be replaced. (How often? About once every year?) How do > you guys get the old coolant out? Have you put a drain plug (with a > sealing bolt) near the skeg's baseplate? I guess the easiest way would > be to temporarily drop the engine's coolant outlet hose into the > cockpit, and run the motor; but that may not remove any sludge that > might be right at the bottom of the skeg. (My inlet pipe ends some > inches above the baseplate.) OTOH an exterior drain plug might allow > more efficient "flushing"; but could be just one more external fitting > to worry about. > > Many thanks! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > __________________________________________________________ > > | 28769|28765|2012-08-15 17:20:47|brentswain38|Re: Pintles, gaps and draining.|I've never worried about the gap ,as a little water flowing thru it may reduce stalling tendency on the low pressure side. 3/4 inch pintles are adequate, but 7/8th would be better. No sense under building such a critical component. Some people put a drain plug on the bottom of the skeg, on one side where it wont get banged. I simply force the old out with a pressure can filed with, first water,then with antifreeze mix. I leave the bottom of the skeg off till all the other work on the skeg, aperture, stern tube etc are completed. This lets me bang it a bit to get any remaining bits of metal and slag out. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > 3 construction questions! Would be grateful for any advice from you guys on: > > 1) In order to maintain the hydrodynamic relationship between the skeg and the rudder, what is the maximum allowable gap between the trailing edge of the skeg and the leading edge of the rudder? > > 2) For the 26-footer, what would be a suitable diameter for the SS round bar that form the rudder pintles? Would 3/4" (19mm) be strong enough? Maybe 7/8" (22mm)? A 1" (25mm) diameter RB sort of looks too big for this boat. > > 3) I assume that from time to time the engine coolant mix in the skeg would need to be replaced. (How often? About once every year?) How do you guys get the old coolant out? Have you put a drain plug (with a sealing bolt) near the skeg's baseplate? I guess the easiest way would be to temporarily drop the engine's coolant outlet hose into the cockpit, and run the motor; but that may not remove any sludge that might be right at the bottom of the skeg. (My inlet pipe ends some inches above the baseplate.) OTOH an exterior drain plug might allow more efficient "flushing"; but could be just one more external fitting to worry about. > > Many thanks! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > ______________________________________________________________ > | 28770|28244|2012-08-15 17:23:17|brentswain38|Re: Painting Systems|As under water, you only need enough to stop any electrical contact with the copper paint, two coats are adequate down there. The zincs give you all the protection you need, generally. Two coats of epoxy cop are plenty. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > Should I use 2 coats of epoxy under water lane if I use regular epoxy ( not tar epoxy) > and how many coats of epoxycop do you recommend? > > Thanks, Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:15:15 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Painting Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As welded on zincs give you all the protection you need below the waterline, paint there doesn't have to be as thick as above. It just insulates the copper paint from the steel . Two coats of epoxy tar, or wasser tar is all you need. If you use epoxy, best put your antifouling on while the last coat is wet, for a good bond. I like epoxycop, an epoxy based antifouling. Ablative for offshore is too stiff to work for short coastal cruising, stuff desiged for weekenders washes off to quickly on long passages. With hard epoxy based antiofouling, you can scrub it without washing it off. I'm not impressed with ablatives. > > For topsides and decks, I used 5 coats of epoxy tar, 30 gallons on my 31 footer. The thicker the better. If you can still see the weld pattern , it's not thick enough. If you have rust problems in the middle of a flat surface, the paint is not thick enough. My paint job is 28 years old and the only corrosion I've seen is where it has been chipped . The rest is as good as the day I put it on. > > Over epoxy I put oil based enamel, while the epoxy was still wet. The epoxy tar bled thru the first couple of coats. Let that harden for a couple of weeks. Then you can put whatever colour you want over it, even white, and it won't bleed thru. Urethane over epoxy tar gives you a much harder surface, but is more difficult to paint over and touch up. . > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > > > > > Greets: > > > > > > Total nubie so pardon the question if its old. > > > > > > Paint > > > > > > 1. What is the recommended painting system below the water line. > > > > > > 2. What is the recommended painting system for top sides and decks > > > > > > The interior Ive come to understand is best treated with an epoxy tar > > > based product then insulated. > > > > > > Best and kind regards > > > > > > > > > -- > > > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28771|28765|2012-08-16 02:47:42|Kim|Re: Pintles, gaps and draining.|Many thanks for your replies and advice, Brent and Paul. Very much appreciated! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've never worried about the gap ,as a little water flowing thru it may reduce stalling tendency on the low pressure side. > 3/4 inch pintles are adequate, but 7/8th would be better. No sense under building such a critical component. > Some people put a drain plug on the bottom of the skeg, on one side where it wont get banged. I simply force the old out with a pressure can filed with, first water,then with antifreeze mix. I leave the bottom of the skeg off till all the other work on the skeg, aperture, stern tube etc are completed. This lets me bang it a bit to get any remaining bits of metal and slag out. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Kim, > > Nobody else has answered you so I will add my 2 cents. > > 1. I wouldn't worry about the gap. A little water flowing through may > help in keeping the foil shape of the rudder from stalling. I think > Brent writes about this in his book? I can't find my copy. There is a > huge gap in airplane wings between the flaps and the wing when the flaps > are down. It looks funny but it is aerodynamically efficient. > > 2. Not sure about a 26 but if in doubt go big. The biggest load will be > from a crashing wave coming from the side and throwing the boat when you > are offshore. Or grounding on something. You will get used to how it > looks. I know of a guy with a 35 foot catamaran who has lost about 10 > rudders now. He "beefed them up" to 1/2 inch pintles. I had to laugh. > > 3. Antifreeze will last many years. It is the acids that build up in the > antifreeze that eventually cause damage. I changed mine about once every > 5 years but there are some old postings on checking ph level with a > litmus strip so I will only change it now if it gets out of whack. A ph > level of 9.8 to 10.2 is apparently ideal and change it if it goes below > 9.0. If you use antifreeze, you should have minimum scaling and > deposits. If you want to change it, just use a portable pump to get it > out. You could use a hose to really flush it out if you want but I have > never noticed any problems in 20 years. > > > Cheers, Paul > On 14/08/2012 9:09 p.m., Kim wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent and everyone ... > > > > 3 construction questions! Would be grateful for any advice from you > > guys on: > > > > 1) In order to maintain the hydrodynamic relationship between the skeg > > and the rudder, what is the maximum allowable gap between the trailing > > edge of the skeg and the leading edge of the rudder? > > > > 2) For the 26-footer, what would be a suitable diameter for the SS > > round bar that form the rudder pintles? Would 3/4" (19mm) be strong > > enough? Maybe 7/8" (22mm)? A 1" (25mm) diameter RB sort of looks too > > big for this boat. > > > > 3) I assume that from time to time the engine coolant mix in the skeg > > would need to be replaced. (How often? About once every year?) How do > > you guys get the old coolant out? Have you put a drain plug (with a > > sealing bolt) near the skeg's baseplate? I guess the easiest way would > > be to temporarily drop the engine's coolant outlet hose into the > > cockpit, and run the motor; but that may not remove any sludge that > > might be right at the bottom of the skeg. (My inlet pipe ends some > > inches above the baseplate.) OTOH an exterior drain plug might allow > > more efficient "flushing"; but could be just one more external fitting > > to worry about. > > > > Many thanks! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > __________________________________________________________ | 28772|28766|2012-08-16 10:47:09|m riley|Re: Interior paints|I have used rustloc for years professionally and would recommend it as the best I have found for non perfect steel I can tell you how to use it in excruciating detail via email if you want. mike| 28773|28766|2012-08-16 14:23:51|chris123|Re: Interior paints|Mike....how would you rate it against POR-15 as thats the only one I have actual experience with. Worked great on a keel job I had to do, key was to give it two coats. Expensive but lasted for several years. Comments most welcomed positive or negative. As said its the only baseline reference I have. /ch On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:47 AM, m riley wrote: > ** > > > I have used rustloc for years professionally and would recommend it as the > best I have found for non perfect steel > I can tell you how to use it in excruciating detail via email if you want. > mike > > > -- /ch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28774|28774|2012-08-16 14:51:58|Carl|E-mail address?|Does anybody know Bruce Roberts E mail address? I've treed the one at his web site, but it just keeps telling me I need a pop3 server, what ever that is.| 28775|28774|2012-08-16 14:58:45|Doug Jackson|Re: E-mail address?|His website email uses:  boatdesigns@...   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Carl To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] E-mail address?   Does anybody know Bruce Roberts E mail address? I've treed the one at his web site, but it just keeps telling me I need a pop3 server, what ever that is. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28776|28766|2012-08-16 15:28:55|Paul Thompson|Re: Interior paints|I've used POR-15 for years now and it has lasted very well. The key is follow the instructions that POR supply to the letter. I always put a minimum of three coats and usually four or five. If the weather is cold or very damp, I dry the surface with a heat gun before putting on the first coat. Trapped moisture will cause it to lift. I have no experience with Rustlok as it does not seem to be available in New Zealand. Regards, Paul On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 6:23 AM, chris123 wrote: > Mike....how would you rate it against POR-15 as thats the only one I have > actual experience with. Worked great on a keel job I had to do, key was to > give it two coats. Expensive but lasted for several years. Comments most > welcomed positive or negative. As said its the only baseline reference I > have. > > /ch > > > On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:47 AM, m riley wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> I have used rustloc for years professionally and would recommend it as the >> best I have found for non perfect steel >> I can tell you how to use it in excruciating detail via email if you want. >> mike >> >> >> > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 28777|28766|2012-08-17 11:46:43|mkriley48|Re: Interior paints|I have not used por-15 personally. I for one am put off by the BS in the literature "polydigital adhesion" "little fingers reaching out to grab the rust" I think the little fingers are reaching out to grab your money. With all the prep steps they require you would get reasonable results with rustolium. rustloc is primarily a aliphatic moisture cured urethane with aluminium flakes in it. Cured it is not pretty and cannot be removed except buy grinding. It is an industrial product repackaged for retail use. Used for bridges submarines and marine construction. I have had some outside in florida for 10 years and it yellowed but held up fine under the uv. I would not use anything else on rusted steel. I think por-15 had the same technical writer as the turbo-encabulator http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o last quart of rustloc I bought was 30usd at a boating boutique. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 wrote: > > Mike....how would you rate it against POR-15 as thats the only one I have > actual experience with. Worked great on a keel job I had to do, key was to > give it two coats. Expensive but lasted for several years. Comments most > welcomed positive or negative. As said its the only baseline reference I > have. > > /ch > > > On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:47 AM, m riley wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I have used rustloc for years professionally and would recommend it as the > > best I have found for non perfect steel > > I can tell you how to use it in excruciating detail via email if you want. > > mike > > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28778|28774|2012-08-17 12:31:42|Carl Volkwein|Re: E-mail address?|Thank you very much ________________________________ From: Doug Jackson To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] E-mail address?   His website email uses:  boatdesigns@...   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Carl To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] E-mail address?   Does anybody know Bruce Roberts E mail address? I've treed the one at his web site, but it just keeps telling me I need a pop3 server, what ever that is. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28779|28774|2012-08-17 16:02:34|Paul Wilson|SS anchor rope.|Brent or anyone else. Have you ever use SS cable for the anchor rope? I can get a deal right now on 7 X 7 SS 304 cable for only a little bit more than the price of galv cable and I was wondering if it is a good idea. Cheer and thanks, Paul| 28780|28774|2012-08-17 18:45:53|wild_explorer|Re: SS anchor rope.|If I remember correctly, Brent mentioned that SS cable develops "meat hooks", galvanized cable does not. I think it was in a discussion about what to use for rigging (or about anchor rope?)... Found it... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/24698 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Brent or anyone else. > > Have you ever use SS cable for the anchor rope? I can get a deal right > now on 7 X 7 SS 304 cable for only a little bit more than the price of > galv cable and I was wondering if it is a good idea. > > Cheer and thanks, Paul > | 28781|28532|2012-08-17 19:04:19|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|Surface preparation specified by Wasser for MC-Zinc100: Blast Clean surfaces for severe service projects (immersion) to SSPCSP10/NACE No. 2 "Near White Metal finish". Prepare surfaces for atmospheric service projects to SSPCSP6/NACE No. 3 "Commercial Blast Clean finish". For minimum surface preparation, use conscientious power tool cleaning methods in accordance with SSPC-SP3 to remove corrosion and loose or failing paint (feather edges of sound, existing paint back to a firm edge). Does anybody knows if wheelabrating can provide SSPCSP10 finish? Some info on surface preparation standards: SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Staining shall be limited to no more than 5 percent of each unit area, and may consist of light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coatings. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). SSPC-SP6 / NACE 3 Commercial Blast Cleaning When viewed without magnification, the surface shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 66-2/3% of unit area, which shall be a square 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). Light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coating in less than 33-1/3% of the unit area is acceptable. SSPC-SP3 Power Tool Cleaning Removes all loose mill scale, loose rust, loose paint, and other loose detrimental foreign matter by power wire brushing, power sanding, power grinding, power tool chipping, and power tool descaling.| 28782|28766|2012-08-17 21:01:24|Alan Boucher|Re: Interior paints|Our experience on automobile chassis confirms your opinion. POR -15 did not hold up well in our application. On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:46 AM, mkriley48 wrote: > ** > > > I have not used por-15 personally. I for one am put off by the BS in the > literature "polydigital adhesion" "little fingers reaching out to grab the > rust" I think the little fingers are reaching out to grab your money. With > all the prep steps they require you would get reasonable results with > rustolium. > rustloc is primarily a aliphatic moisture cured urethane with aluminium > flakes in it. Cured it is not pretty and cannot be removed except buy > grinding. It is an industrial product repackaged > for retail use. Used for bridges submarines and marine construction. > I have had some outside in florida for 10 years and it yellowed but > held up fine under the uv. I would not use anything else on rusted steel. > I think por-15 had the same technical writer as the turbo-encabulator > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o > > last quart of rustloc I bought was 30usd at a boating boutique. > > mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, chris123 > wrote: > > > > Mike....how would you rate it against POR-15 as thats the only one I have > > actual experience with. Worked great on a keel job I had to do, key was > to > > give it two coats. Expensive but lasted for several years. Comments most > > welcomed positive or negative. As said its the only baseline reference I > > have. > > > > /ch > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:47 AM, m riley wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > I have used rustloc for years professionally and would recommend it as > the > > > best I have found for non perfect steel > > > I can tell you how to use it in excruciating detail via email if you > want. > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > /ch > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28783|28766|2012-08-18 18:14:42|Mark Hamill|Re: Interior paints|Pettit RUSTLOK STEEL PRIMER from a Canadian Supplier about $40 .http://www.canadianmarineparts.com/index.php/shopping-cart?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=33265&category_id=1502| 28784|28784|2012-08-18 18:23:15|martin demers|FW: New Cruising Outpost Website open|anyone familiar with what seems like a new boat website? Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 13:02:01 -0400 From: bob@... To: mdemers2005@... Subject: New Cruising Outpost Website open First Look at The Cruising Outpost Website! The Most Complete Nautical Site For Cruisers! It has been a fight, but we have launched the Cruising Outpost Website. You are being invited to view it before the general public. In the months and years to come, we will try and give you even more great stories, news and information about the boating and cruising lifestyle. Go to the New Website Now! Good News From The Staff Great News! The same staff that brought you the most popular magazine in the cruising lifestyle has banded together to bring you this great new boaters lifestyle magazine and website. Print Issue: The quarterly print issue of Cruising Outpost will be on sale early December. Don't miss a single issue! More pages than any of the other cruising magazines. More stories from people who are out there doing it, and more great information from the folks who really know what the lifestyle is all about. Know someone who might like to join us? It's not too late. They can also become a Charter Member, or a subscriber here. Join or Subscribe Here! You can go to our Facebook Page Here And once again, thank you. Jody & I want to thank all of you who have stuck with us! And we have a lot more coming up.... Bob and Jody ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bob@... Jody@... Forward this to your sailing/cruising/adventurous friends so they can: & Forward this email This email was sent to mdemers2005@... by bob@... | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe� | Privacy Policy. Cruising Outpost | 909 Marina Village Parkway | Suite 351 | Alameda | CA | 94501 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28785|28766|2012-08-18 18:24:48|Mark Hamill|Re: Interior paints|PDS and MSDS here--looks very interesting http://www.pettitpaint.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=95 ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Interior paints Pettit RUSTLOK STEEL PRIMER from a Canadian Supplier about $40 .http://www.canadianmarineparts.com/index.php/shopping-cart?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=33265&category_id=1502 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28786|28786|2012-08-18 19:06:01|Mark Hamill|Mast weight and mast paint|I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a usual weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? MarkH| 28787|28786|2012-08-18 19:36:56|martin demers|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|what material is it made of? how long is it? it seems heavy. mine is 45ft long, aluminium, 5 1/2 in x 8 in, 3/16 thick and I estimate it at around 220lbs Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 16:06:12 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a usual weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28788|28766|2012-08-18 20:10:11|Paul Wilson|Re: Interior paints|It appears to be similar to RustBullet (www.rustbullet.com) which is good stuff. In my opinion these products are good for touch ups but nothing beats sandblasting and good high build 2 part epoxy. Paul On 19/08/2012 10:25 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > PDS and MSDS here--looks very interesting > http://www.pettitpaint.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=95 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark Hamill > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 3:14 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Interior paints > > Pettit RUSTLOK STEEL PRIMER from a Canadian Supplier about $40 > .http://www.canadianmarineparts.com/index.php/shopping-cart?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=33265&category_id=1502 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 28789|28786|2012-08-18 20:12:23|Paul Wilson|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|No that is extremely heavy. I don't know what mine weighs but I can easily lift one end of my mast when it is laying on two saw horses. Paul On 19/08/2012 11:06 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a usual > weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? > MarkH > > | 28790|28786|2012-08-18 20:30:59|Mark Hamill|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Martin: 42' 7" X 5.5", Steel unknown thickness, 20 Stainless rod "tripod" mast steps. MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: "martin demers" To: Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:36 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > what material is it made of? how long is it? > it seems heavy. > mine is 45ft long, aluminium, 5 1/2 in x 8 in, 3/16 thick and I estimate > it at around 220lbs > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 16:06:12 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a > usual > > weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? > > MarkH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 28791|28786|2012-08-18 20:36:39|martin demers|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Mark Before I found my aluminium mast, I bought 3 lenght of steel tubing 6 in diameter 1/8 in thick to weld together for a 45ft long mast and I was estimating that mast would have weighted around 300lbs Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:31:07 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint Martin: 42' 7" X 5.5", Steel unknown thickness, 20 Stainless rod "tripod" mast steps. MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: "martin demers" To: Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:36 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > what material is it made of? how long is it? > it seems heavy. > mine is 45ft long, aluminium, 5 1/2 in x 8 in, 3/16 thick and I estimate > it at around 220lbs > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 16:06:12 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a > usual > > weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? > > MarkH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28792|28786|2012-08-18 20:37:44|(no author)|(no subject)|http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast Sections On 19/08/2012 12:10 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > No that is extremely heavy. I don't know what mine weighs but I can > easily lift one end of my mast when it is laying on two saw horses. > > Paul > On 19/08/2012 11:06 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: >> I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a usual >> weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? >> MarkH >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 28793|28786|2012-08-18 20:44:35|(no author)|(no subject)|Based on these sections I am guessing my alloy oval mast which is 9 inch by 5.5 inch is about 5.5 pounds per foot x 45 feet or about 250 pounds. Seems about right. Note that I have a very heavy duty alloy mast. I have seen much smaller sections on 36 footers if you happen to have double spreaders. http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast Sections On 19/08/2012 12:35 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast Sections > > On 19/08/2012 12:10 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: >> No that is extremely heavy. I don't know what mine weighs but I can >> easily lift one end of my mast when it is laying on two saw horses. >> >> Paul >> On 19/08/2012 11:06 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: >>> I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a usual >>> weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? >>> MarkH >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 28794|28786|2012-08-18 23:42:30|Aaron|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|My mast is the F760 E and 6.07 lbs per ft x 50 thats 303lbs without the boom or sail wound up inside. http://www.sparcraft.com/uk/products/masts/furling_masts/measurements_and_sections/default.asp Aaron ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint Based on these sections I am guessing my alloy oval mast which is 9 inch by 5.5 inch is about 5.5 pounds per foot  x 45 feet or about 250 pounds.  Seems about right.  Note that I have a very heavy duty alloy mast.  I have seen much smaller sections on 36 footers if you happen to have double spreaders. http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast Sections On 19/08/2012 12:35 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast Sections > > On 19/08/2012 12:10 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: >> No that is extremely heavy. I don't know what mine weighs but I can >> easily lift one end of my mast when it is laying on two saw horses. >> >> Paul >> On 19/08/2012 11:06 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: >>> I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a usual >>> weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? >>> MarkH >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28795|28786|2012-08-19 09:44:15|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Thank you for this thread and all the responses. I needed to do some computation for a truss mast and one of the elements I was missing was permissible weight. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: akenai@... Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 20:42:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint My mast is the F760 E and 6.07 lbs per ft x 50 thats 303lbs without the boom or sail wound up inside. http://www.sparcraft.com/uk/products/masts/furling_masts/measurements_and_sections/default.asp Aaron ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint Based on these sections I am guessing my alloy oval mast which is 9 inch by 5.5 inch is about 5.5 pounds per foot x 45 feet or about 250 pounds. Seems about right. Note that I have a very heavy duty alloy mast. I have seen much smaller sections on 36 footers if you happen to have double spreaders. http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast Sections On 19/08/2012 12:35 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast Sections > > On 19/08/2012 12:10 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: >> No that is extremely heavy. I don't know what mine weighs but I can >> easily lift one end of my mast when it is laying on two saw horses. >> >> Paul >> On 19/08/2012 11:06 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: >>> I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a usual >>> weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? >>> MarkH >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28796|28532|2012-08-19 10:36:12|Aaron|Re: Zinc primer|If the wheel shot is new then it will give a white metal finish  ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 3:04 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer   Surface preparation specified by Wasser for MC-Zinc100: Blast Clean surfaces for severe service projects (immersion) to SSPCSP10/NACE No. 2 "Near White Metal finish". Prepare surfaces for atmospheric service projects to SSPCSP6/NACE No. 3 "Commercial Blast Clean finish". For minimum surface preparation, use conscientious power tool cleaning methods in accordance with SSPC-SP3 to remove corrosion and loose or failing paint (feather edges of sound, existing paint back to a firm edge). Does anybody knows if wheelabrating can provide SSPCSP10 finish? Some info on surface preparation standards: SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Staining shall be limited to no more than 5 percent of each unit area, and may consist of light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coatings. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). SSPC-SP6 / NACE 3 Commercial Blast Cleaning When viewed without magnification, the surface shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 66-2/3% of unit area, which shall be a square 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). Light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coating in less than 33-1/3% of the unit area is acceptable. SSPC-SP3 Power Tool Cleaning Removes all loose mill scale, loose rust, loose paint, and other loose detrimental foreign matter by power wire brushing, power sanding, power grinding, power tool chipping, and power tool descaling. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28797|28532|2012-08-19 11:47:56|wild_explorer|Re: Zinc primer|Thanks Aaron. I forgot to post first step (which should be done before all others): Use SSPC-SP1 solvent cleaning to remove oil, grease and other contaminants prior to employing surface preparation methods And it looks like it is most important step... ;) I had one area on wheelabrated & primed steel which did not look right. I tried to use power wire-wheel to clean it, but it did not work well. Finally, someone checked that area and told me that it has some grease on it and I was just rubbing that grease around on the steel with wire-wheel. I cleaned it with industrial degreaser, used whire-wheel and re-primed it. Now it is OK. It looks like whatever grease it was, it was not removed during wheelabrating and primer just would not stick to metal. Do you know if abrating companies clean the steel before abrating/blasting? Or they just process the steel "as is"? Note: SSPC-SP1 Solvent Cleaning Removal of all visible oil, grease, soil, drawing and cutting compounds, and other soluble contaminants from steel surfaces with solvent, vapor, cleaning compound, alkali, emulsifying agent, or steam. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > If the wheel shot is new then it will give a white metal finish  > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 3:04 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > >   > > Surface preparation specified by Wasser for MC-Zinc100: > > Blast Clean surfaces for severe service projects (immersion) to SSPCSP10/NACE No. 2 "Near White Metal finish". > > Prepare surfaces for atmospheric service projects to SSPCSP6/NACE No. 3 "Commercial Blast Clean finish". > > For minimum surface preparation, use conscientious power tool cleaning > methods in accordance with SSPC-SP3 to remove corrosion and loose or failing paint (feather edges of sound, existing paint back to a firm edge). > > Does anybody knows if wheelabrating can provide SSPCSP10 finish? > > Some info on surface preparation standards: > > SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning > > When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Staining shall be limited to no more than 5 percent of each unit area, and may consist of light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coatings. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). > > SSPC-SP6 / NACE 3 Commercial Blast Cleaning > > When viewed without magnification, the surface shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 66-2/3% of unit area, which shall be a square 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). Light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coating in less than 33-1/3% of the unit area is acceptable. > > SSPC-SP3 Power Tool Cleaning > > Removes all loose mill scale, loose rust, loose paint, and other loose detrimental foreign matter by power wire brushing, power sanding, power grinding, power tool chipping, and power tool descaling. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28798|28786|2012-08-19 12:17:04|Mark Hamill|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Calculator for pipe http://www.jdfields.com/products/pipe-weight-per-foot-calculator.html Chart for weights of stainless rod imperial measure http://www.fidelitystainless.com/WeightCharts/Round%20Bar%20Weight%20Chart.pdf So if my mast was 1/8" X 5.5" X 42" it should weigh about 301 lbs on its own. There is 28.5 feet of 3/8" stainles rod for mast steps which should weigh about 10.7 lbs. and that means there are about 110 lbls of other pieces which makes sense. Well question answered-- fun!!! MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Malone" To: Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:44 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > Thank you for this thread and all the responses. I needed to do some > computation for a truss mast and one of the elements I was missing was > permissible weight. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: akenai@... > Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 20:42:28 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My mast is the F760 E and 6.07 lbs per ft x 50 thats 303lbs without > the boom or sail wound up inside. > http://www.sparcraft.com/uk/products/masts/furling_masts/measurements_and_sections/default.asp > > Aaron > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Paul Wilson > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:42 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > Based on these sections I am guessing my alloy oval mast which is 9 inch > > by 5.5 inch is about 5.5 pounds per foot x 45 feet or about 250 > > pounds. Seems about right. Note that I have a very heavy duty alloy > > mast. I have seen much smaller sections on 36 footers if you happen to > > have double spreaders. > > > > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast Sections > > > > On 19/08/2012 12:35 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > >> http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast >> Sections > >> > >> On 19/08/2012 12:10 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > >>> No that is extremely heavy. I don't know what mine weighs but I can > >>> easily lift one end of my mast when it is laying on two saw horses. > >>> > >>> Paul > >>> On 19/08/2012 11:06 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > >>>> I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a usual > >>>> weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? > >>>> MarkH > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 28799|28786|2012-08-19 12:40:07|Mark Hamill|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Oops I mean 150 lbs for other pieces--which does seem heavy still--perhaps the mast was heavier walled than I used in the calculation--there is no exposed edge to determine wall thickness and I don't have a thickness tool people have mentioned. Thanks for your input. MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint Calculator for pipe http://www.jdfields.com/products/pipe-weight-per-foot-calculator.html Chart for weights of stainless rod imperial measure http://www.fidelitystainless.com/WeightCharts/Round%20Bar%20Weight%20Chart.pdf So if my mast was 1/8" X 5.5" X 42" it should weigh about 301 lbs on its own. There is 28.5 feet of 3/8" stainles rod for mast steps which should weigh about 10.7 lbs. and that means there are about 110 lbls of other pieces which makes sense. Well question answered-- fun!!! MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Malone" To: Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:44 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > Thank you for this thread and all the responses. I needed to do some > computation for a truss mast and one of the elements I was missing was > permissible weight. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: akenai@... > Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 20:42:28 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My mast is the F760 E and 6.07 lbs per ft x 50 thats 303lbs without > the boom or sail wound up inside. > http://www.sparcraft.com/uk/products/masts/furling_masts/measurements_and_sections/default.asp > > Aaron > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Paul Wilson > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:42 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > Based on these sections I am guessing my alloy oval mast which is 9 inch > > by 5.5 inch is about 5.5 pounds per foot x 45 feet or about 250 > > pounds. Seems about right. Note that I have a very heavy duty alloy > > mast. I have seen much smaller sections on 36 footers if you happen to > > have double spreaders. > > > > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast Sections > > > > On 19/08/2012 12:35 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > >> http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast >> Sections > >> > >> On 19/08/2012 12:10 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > >>> No that is extremely heavy. I don't know what mine weighs but I can > >>> easily lift one end of my mast when it is laying on two saw horses. > >>> > >>> Paul > >>> On 19/08/2012 11:06 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > >>>> I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a usual > >>>> weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? > >>>> MarkH > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28800|28786|2012-08-19 16:06:03|Paul Wilson|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|150 lbs for extras sounds too much. On my masthead it is all welded up from aluminum plate. The spreaders and their mounts are aluminum. I have SS mast steps made from SS tube. They are bent into shape and the ends are pounded flat and bolted on to the mast. I am guessing but all the fittings on the mast probably only add 20 or 30 pounds. As I said, I can easily lift one end of my aluminum mast with everything on it other than the standing rigging. If it was any more than 300 pounds, I would be surprised. Paul On 20/08/2012 4:40 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > Oops I mean 150 lbs for other pieces--which does seem heavy > still--perhaps the mast was heavier walled than I used in the > calculation--there is no exposed edge to determine wall thickness and > I don't have a thickness tool people have mentioned. Thanks for your > input. MarkH > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark Hamill > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:17 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > Calculator for pipe > http://www.jdfields.com/products/pipe-weight-per-foot-calculator.html > > Chart for weights of stainless rod imperial measure > http://www.fidelitystainless.com/WeightCharts/Round%20Bar%20Weight%20Chart.pdf > > So if my mast was 1/8" X 5.5" X 42" it should weigh about 301 lbs on its > own. There is 28.5 feet of 3/8" stainles rod for mast steps which should > weigh about 10.7 lbs. and that means there are about 110 lbls of other > pieces which makes sense. Well question answered-- fun!!! MarkH > > - > | 28801|28786|2012-08-19 16:33:15|Paul Wilson|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Correction: Spreader mounts are SS and bolted to mast. Bases of spreaders and their bases are aluminum. On 20/08/2012 8:04 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > 150 lbs for extras sounds too much. On my masthead it is all welded up > from aluminum plate. The spreaders and their mounts are aluminum. I > have SS mast steps made from SS tube. They are bent into shape and the > ends are pounded flat and bolted on to the mast. I am guessing but all > the fittings on the mast probably only add 20 or 30 pounds. > > As I said, I can easily lift one end of my aluminum mast with > everything on it other than the standing rigging. If it was any more > than 300 pounds, I would be surprised. > > Paul > > On 20/08/2012 4:40 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > > > Oops I mean 150 lbs for other pieces--which does seem heavy > > still--perhaps the mast was heavier walled than I used in the > > calculation--there is no exposed edge to determine wall thickness and > > I don't have a thickness tool people have mentioned. Thanks for your > > input. MarkH > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Mark Hamill > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:17 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > Calculator for pipe > > http://www.jdfields.com/products/pipe-weight-per-foot-calculator.html > > > > Chart for weights of stainless rod imperial measure > > > http://www.fidelitystainless.com/WeightCharts/Round%20Bar%20Weight%20Chart.pdf > > > > So if my mast was 1/8" X 5.5" X 42" it should weigh about 301 lbs on its > > own. There is 28.5 feet of 3/8" stainles rod for mast steps which should > > weigh about 10.7 lbs. and that means there are about 110 lbls of other > > pieces which makes sense. Well question answered-- fun!!! MarkH > > > > - > > > > | 28802|28784|2012-08-19 19:45:57|James Pronk|Re: FW: New Cruising Outpost Website open|Bob Bitchin and Jody are the ones that started Latitudes and Attitudes. I think this could be the same ones James --- On Sat, 8/18/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: [origamiboats] FW: New Cruising Outpost Website open To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, August 18, 2012, 6:23 PM anyone familiar with what seems like a new boat website? Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 13:02:01 -0400 From: bob@... To: mdemers2005@... Subject: New Cruising Outpost Website open                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 First Look at The Cruising Outpost Website!  The Most Complete Nautical Site For Cruisers!         It has been a fight, but we have launched the Cruising Outpost Website.  You are being invited to view it before the general public.   In the months and years to come, we will try and give you even more great stories, news and information about the boating and cruising lifestyle. Go to the New Website Now! Good News From The Staff       Great News!  The same staff that brought you the most popular magazine in the cruising lifestyle has banded together to bring you this great new boaters lifestyle magazine and website.        Print Issue:  The quarterly print issue of Cruising Outpost will be on sale early December.  Don't miss a single issue!  More pages than any of the other cruising magazines.  More stories from people who are out there doing it, and more great information from the folks who really know what the lifestyle is all about.       Know someone who might like to join us?  It's not too late.  They can also become a Charter Member, or a subscriber here.    Join or Subscribe Here! You can go to our Facebook Page Here     And once again, thank you.  Jody & I want to thank all of you who have stuck with us! And we have a lot more coming up....                                                                                                                                   Bob and Jody ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bob@... Jody@...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Forward this to your sailing/cruising/adventurous friends so they can:  &                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Forward this email This email was sent to mdemers2005@... by bob@...  |    Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe™  |  Privacy Policy. Cruising Outpost | 909 Marina Village Parkway | Suite 351 | Alameda | CA | 94501                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28803|28532|2012-08-19 20:46:07|GP|Re: mold / transducer|How do you get rid of mold you can't see? ..example under floor boards, behind plywood ... etc... I heard that ozone will work but not how to use it. .... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Mold is another reason for not lining an interior before putting the parts in. If you have built your interior over a plywood lining, getting at mold when it begins to form behind the plywood, is a serious problem. I prefer to build the interior in first, then put panelling over only any foam which is still showing, making it easy to remove if mold forms behind it. There is no need for paneling inside lockers, altho it would be easy to pattern and cut panels and lay them in there, if one wished. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Mold removal instructions: > > > > http://blackmold.awardspace.com/kill-remove-mold.html > > > > effective mold removal products include: > > > > Bleach > > Borax > > Vinegar > > Ammonia > > Hydrogen peroxide > > Detergent > > Baking soda > > Tea tree oil > > Grapefruit seed extract > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I have an abandoned bronze transducer on my boat , well insulated from the hull. It has caused no problems. > > > Any kind of latex works. If you wash it with a mixture of borax and water , when the water evaporates, it leaves a film of borax behind, which stops mold. > > > > > > | 28804|28532|2012-08-19 22:12:50|martin demers|Re: mold / transducer|you mix white vinegar and chlorine bleach and get the hell out of there before you die with the molds... you leave the gas that the mix produce for a few days and it is suppose to kill the molds. you can find info about this trick if you make a search Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: aguysailing@... Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 00:46:03 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: mold / transducer How do you get rid of mold you can't see? ..example under floor boards, behind plywood ... etc... I heard that ozone will work but not how to use it. .... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Mold is another reason for not lining an interior before putting the parts in. If you have built your interior over a plywood lining, getting at mold when it begins to form behind the plywood, is a serious problem. I prefer to build the interior in first, then put panelling over only any foam which is still showing, making it easy to remove if mold forms behind it. There is no need for paneling inside lockers, altho it would be easy to pattern and cut panels and lay them in there, if one wished. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Mold removal instructions: > > > > http://blackmold.awardspace.com/kill-remove-mold.html > > > > effective mold removal products include: > > > > Bleach > > Borax > > Vinegar > > Ammonia > > Hydrogen peroxide > > Detergent > > Baking soda > > Tea tree oil > > Grapefruit seed extract > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I have an abandoned bronze transducer on my boat , well insulated from the hull. It has caused no problems. > > > Any kind of latex works. If you wash it with a mixture of borax and water , when the water evaporates, it leaves a film of borax behind, which stops mold. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28805|28532|2012-08-19 22:32:24|wild_explorer|Re: mold / transducer|Ozone is a toxic gas and can be very harmful (search Internet). Its effect similar to bleach. More likely you will need industrial ozone generator - not cheap household junk: http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html Ozone generators were used to disinfect drinking water on ships (I do know if it still used today). "Ozonized" water has very distinctive taste. I do not think that ozone is a good solution to get rid of mold. Good interior design should allow access to the hull anyway (removable interior)... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > How do you get rid of mold you can't see? ..example under floor boards, behind plywood ... etc... I heard that ozone will work but not how to use it. > > .... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Mold is another reason for not lining an interior before putting the parts in. If you have built your interior over a plywood lining, getting at mold when it begins to form behind the plywood, is a serious problem. I prefer to build the interior in first, then put panelling over only any foam which is still showing, making it easy to remove if mold forms behind it. There is no need for paneling inside lockers, altho it would be easy to pattern and cut panels and lay them in there, if one wished. > > | 28806|28532|2012-08-20 09:10:56|scott|Re: mold / transducer|I havent updated on this topic in a while but I purchased a ozone generator a few months ago and have used it twice on the boat. Our boat doesn't have a lot of odor to start with due to some intensive cleaning and painting of various parts of the hull inside over the last few years but it still gets stuffy and food odors etc over time and a bit of that nice bilge odor/diesel smell. The first time we used the ozone generator I set it on a timer that ran it for 2 hours every day for a week while we were away. The second time just a few days ago we ran it for 10 hours in one day while we were away from the boat and left all fans and the ac running. It makes an amazing difference. The boat afterward smells... well actually it doesn't smell at all. Just clean. We plan on the ozone generator to be a permanent part of the boats inventory. It was about 4 or 5 months between uses on the boat. I think I would make it a every 3 month item on the scheadule to do on the boat. http://foreverozone.com/products/basic-build-3600-mg-h-ozone-generator.html This is the unit i purchased and it works well but i find it to be really awkward to store and I worry about damaging the ceramic card that generates the ozone. I have thought about transfering the guts into a 6 inch piece of PVC tube to make it easier to store and damage proof. In looking at the components you could probably build your own for 30 or 50 dollars. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Ozone is a toxic gas and can be very harmful (search Internet). Its effect similar to bleach. More likely you will need industrial ozone generator - not cheap household junk: > > http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html > > Ozone generators were used to disinfect drinking water on ships (I do know if it still used today). "Ozonized" water has very distinctive taste. > > I do not think that ozone is a good solution to get rid of mold. Good interior design should allow access to the hull anyway (removable interior)... > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > How do you get rid of mold you can't see? ..example under floor boards, behind plywood ... etc... I heard that ozone will work but not how to use it. > > > > .... > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > Mold is another reason for not lining an interior before putting the parts in. If you have built your interior over a plywood lining, getting at mold when it begins to form behind the plywood, is a serious problem. I prefer to build the interior in first, then put panelling over only any foam which is still showing, making it easy to remove if mold forms behind it. There is no need for paneling inside lockers, altho it would be easy to pattern and cut panels and lay them in there, if one wished. > > > > | 28807|28532|2012-08-20 17:35:23|brentswain38|Re: mold / transducer|Moth ball smell kills mold, but won't remove it. When you are leaving the boat for a while, you can sprinkle moth crystals behind plywood , hoping it will have all have evaporated by the time you get back. Then you open the boat up for a while and let the smell vent out. Another good reason to build your interior in before the paneling, and only covering the foam with paneling where you can see it, not inside of lockers. Lining the interior with plywood first, is a big mistake. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > How do you get rid of mold you can't see? ..example under floor boards, behind plywood ... etc... I heard that ozone will work but not how to use it. > > .... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Mold is another reason for not lining an interior before putting the parts in. If you have built your interior over a plywood lining, getting at mold when it begins to form behind the plywood, is a serious problem. I prefer to build the interior in first, then put panelling over only any foam which is still showing, making it easy to remove if mold forms behind it. There is no need for paneling inside lockers, altho it would be easy to pattern and cut panels and lay them in there, if one wished. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > Mold removal instructions: > > > > > > http://blackmold.awardspace.com/kill-remove-mold.html > > > > > > effective mold removal products include: > > > > > > Bleach > > > Borax > > > Vinegar > > > Ammonia > > > Hydrogen peroxide > > > Detergent > > > Baking soda > > > Tea tree oil > > > Grapefruit seed extract > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > I have an abandoned bronze transducer on my boat , well insulated from the hull. It has caused no problems. > > > > Any kind of latex works. If you wash it with a mixture of borax and water , when the water evaporates, it leaves a film of borax behind, which stops mold. > > > > > > > > > > | 28808|28774|2012-08-20 17:41:20|brentswain38|Re: SS anchor rope.|Yes , I've used it. The strands start to break in the first year, so I'll be using galv next time. You seem to be having far better luck with galv. My current 1/4 inch 7X19 galv halyard , put on in Tonga in 2003, is still going strong. I'll change it next spring. A stainless one would have had too many meat hooks, in the first year. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Brent or anyone else. > > Have you ever use SS cable for the anchor rope? I can get a deal right > now on 7 X 7 SS 304 cable for only a little bit more than the price of > galv cable and I was wondering if it is a good idea. > > Cheer and thanks, Paul > | 28809|28774|2012-08-20 17:45:06|Paul Wilson|Re: SS anchor rope.|Thanks Brent. On 21/08/2012 9:41 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Yes , I've used it. The strands start to break in the first year, so > I'll be using galv next time. You seem to be having far better luck > with galv. > My current 1/4 inch 7X19 galv halyard , put on in Tonga in 2003, is > still going strong. I'll change it next spring. A stainless one would > have had too many meat hooks, in the first year. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Brent or anyone else. > > > > Have you ever use SS cable for the anchor rope? I can get a deal right > > now on 7 X 7 SS 304 cable for only a little bit more than the price of > > galv cable and I was wondering if it is a good idea. > > > > Cheer and thanks, Paul > > > > | 28810|28532|2012-08-20 17:46:00|brentswain38|Re: Zinc primer|My boat has never been sandblasted. The wheel abraded , zinced and epoxied surface of 28 years ago is still going string. Wheel abrading and zinc primer is all you need, as long as you wash it after welding with TSP, vinegar and water, before doing any more priming or painting. > Blast Clean surfaces for severe service projects (immersion) to SSPCSP10/NACE No. 2 "Near White Metal finish". > > Prepare surfaces for atmospheric service projects to SSPCSP6/NACE No. 3 "Commercial Blast Clean finish". > > For minimum surface preparation, use conscientious power tool cleaning > methods in accordance with SSPC-SP3 to remove corrosion and loose or failing paint (feather edges of sound, existing paint back to a firm edge). > > Does anybody knows if wheelabrating can provide SSPCSP10 finish? > > Some info on surface preparation standards: > > SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning > > When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Staining shall be limited to no more than 5 percent of each unit area, and may consist of light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coatings. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). > > SSPC-SP6 / NACE 3 Commercial Blast Cleaning > > When viewed without magnification, the surface shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 66-2/3% of unit area, which shall be a square 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). Light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coating in less than 33-1/3% of the unit area is acceptable. > > SSPC-SP3 Power Tool Cleaning > > Removes all loose mill scale, loose rust, loose paint, and other loose detrimental foreign matter by power wire brushing, power sanding, power grinding, power tool chipping, and power tool descaling. > | 28811|28532|2012-08-20 17:48:31|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|Brent, can we wheel abrade ourself ? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 21:45:57 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer My boat has never been sandblasted. The wheel abraded , zinced and epoxied surface of 28 years ago is still going string. Wheel abrading and zinc primer is all you need, as long as you wash it after welding with TSP, vinegar and water, before doing any more priming or painting. > Blast Clean surfaces for severe service projects (immersion) to SSPCSP10/NACE No. 2 "Near White Metal finish". > > Prepare surfaces for atmospheric service projects to SSPCSP6/NACE No. 3 "Commercial Blast Clean finish". > > For minimum surface preparation, use conscientious power tool cleaning > methods in accordance with SSPC-SP3 to remove corrosion and loose or failing paint (feather edges of sound, existing paint back to a firm edge). > > Does anybody knows if wheelabrating can provide SSPCSP10 finish? > > Some info on surface preparation standards: > > SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning > > When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Staining shall be limited to no more than 5 percent of each unit area, and may consist of light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coatings. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). > > SSPC-SP6 / NACE 3 Commercial Blast Cleaning > > When viewed without magnification, the surface shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 66-2/3% of unit area, which shall be a square 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). Light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coating in less than 33-1/3% of the unit area is acceptable. > > SSPC-SP3 Power Tool Cleaning > > Removes all loose mill scale, loose rust, loose paint, and other loose detrimental foreign matter by power wire brushing, power sanding, power grinding, power tool chipping, and power tool descaling. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28812|28532|2012-08-20 17:59:43|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|Brent, I meant, can we wheel abrade ourself with the same result? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 21:45:57 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer My boat has never been sandblasted. The wheel abraded , zinced and epoxied surface of 28 years ago is still going string. Wheel abrading and zinc primer is all you need, as long as you wash it after welding with TSP, vinegar and water, before doing any more priming or painting. > Blast Clean surfaces for severe service projects (immersion) to SSPCSP10/NACE No. 2 "Near White Metal finish". > > Prepare surfaces for atmospheric service projects to SSPCSP6/NACE No. 3 "Commercial Blast Clean finish". > > For minimum surface preparation, use conscientious power tool cleaning > methods in accordance with SSPC-SP3 to remove corrosion and loose or failing paint (feather edges of sound, existing paint back to a firm edge). > > Does anybody knows if wheelabrating can provide SSPCSP10 finish? > > Some info on surface preparation standards: > > SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning > > When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Staining shall be limited to no more than 5 percent of each unit area, and may consist of light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coatings. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). > > SSPC-SP6 / NACE 3 Commercial Blast Cleaning > > When viewed without magnification, the surface shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 66-2/3% of unit area, which shall be a square 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). Light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coating in less than 33-1/3% of the unit area is acceptable. > > SSPC-SP3 Power Tool Cleaning > > Removes all loose mill scale, loose rust, loose paint, and other loose detrimental foreign matter by power wire brushing, power sanding, power grinding, power tool chipping, and power tool descaling. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28813|28532|2012-08-21 00:03:08|wild_explorer|Re: mold / transducer|For removing odor, vinegar works pretty good. Just pour it into wide bowl and let vinegar evaporate over the time... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > Our boat doesn't have a lot of odor to start with due to some intensive cleaning and painting of various parts of the hull inside over the last few years but it still gets stuffy and food odors etc over time and a bit of that nice bilge odor/diesel smell. > | 28814|28532|2012-08-21 11:36:16|mkriley48|Re: Zinc primer|wheel abrading is not a wire wheel it is an industrial process similar to sandblasting --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > I meant, can we wheel abrade ourself with the same result? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 21:45:57 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My boat has never been sandblasted. The wheel abraded , zinced and epoxied surface of 28 years ago is still going string. Wheel abrading and zinc primer is all you need, as long as you wash it after welding with TSP, vinegar and water, before doing any more priming or painting. > > > > > Blast Clean surfaces for severe service projects (immersion) to SSPCSP10/NACE No. 2 "Near White Metal finish". > > > > > > Prepare surfaces for atmospheric service projects to SSPCSP6/NACE No. 3 "Commercial Blast Clean finish". > > > > > > For minimum surface preparation, use conscientious power tool cleaning > > > methods in accordance with SSPC-SP3 to remove corrosion and loose or failing paint (feather edges of sound, existing paint back to a firm edge). > > > > > > Does anybody knows if wheelabrating can provide SSPCSP10 finish? > > > > > > Some info on surface preparation standards: > > > > > > SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning > > > > > > When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Staining shall be limited to no more than 5 percent of each unit area, and may consist of light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coatings. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). > > > > > > SSPC-SP6 / NACE 3 Commercial Blast Cleaning > > > > > > When viewed without magnification, the surface shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 66-2/3% of unit area, which shall be a square 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). Light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coating in less than 33-1/3% of the unit area is acceptable. > > > > > > SSPC-SP3 Power Tool Cleaning > > > > > > Removes all loose mill scale, loose rust, loose paint, and other loose detrimental foreign matter by power wire brushing, power sanding, power grinding, power tool chipping, and power tool descaling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28815|28532|2012-08-21 11:40:56|mkriley48|Re: mold / transducer|did this actually kill existing mildew or just deal with the odor? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > I havent updated on this topic in a while but I purchased a ozone generator a few months ago and have used it twice on the boat. Our boat doesn't have a lot of odor to start with due to some intensive cleaning and painting of various parts of the hull inside over the last few years but it still gets stuffy and food odors etc over time and a bit of that nice bilge odor/diesel smell. > > The first time we used the ozone generator I set it on a timer that ran it for 2 hours every day for a week while we were away. The second time just a few days ago we ran it for 10 hours in one day while we were away from the boat and left all fans and the ac running. > > It makes an amazing difference. The boat afterward smells... well actually it doesn't smell at all. Just clean. We plan on the ozone generator to be a permanent part of the boats inventory. > > It was about 4 or 5 months between uses on the boat. I think I would make it a every 3 month item on the scheadule to do on the boat. > > http://foreverozone.com/products/basic-build-3600-mg-h-ozone-generator.html > > This is the unit i purchased and it works well but i find it to be really awkward to store and I worry about damaging the ceramic card that generates the ozone. I have thought about transfering the guts into a 6 inch piece of PVC tube to make it easier to store and damage proof. In looking at the components you could probably build your own for 30 or 50 dollars. > Scott > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Ozone is a toxic gas and can be very harmful (search Internet). Its effect similar to bleach. More likely you will need industrial ozone generator - not cheap household junk: > > > > http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html > > > > Ozone generators were used to disinfect drinking water on ships (I do know if it still used today). "Ozonized" water has very distinctive taste. > > > > I do not think that ozone is a good solution to get rid of mold. Good interior design should allow access to the hull anyway (removable interior)... > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > > > How do you get rid of mold you can't see? ..example under floor boards, behind plywood ... etc... I heard that ozone will work but not how to use it. > > > > > > .... > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > Mold is another reason for not lining an interior before putting the parts in. If you have built your interior over a plywood lining, getting at mold when it begins to form behind the plywood, is a serious problem. I prefer to build the interior in first, then put panelling over only any foam which is still showing, making it easy to remove if mold forms behind it. There is no need for paneling inside lockers, altho it would be easy to pattern and cut panels and lay them in there, if one wished. > > > > > > > | 28816|28532|2012-08-21 12:33:47|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|thanks, good to know! Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mkriley48@... Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:36:14 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer wheel abrading is not a wire wheel it is an industrial process similar to sandblasting --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > I meant, can we wheel abrade ourself with the same result? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 21:45:57 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My boat has never been sandblasted. The wheel abraded , zinced and epoxied surface of 28 years ago is still going string. Wheel abrading and zinc primer is all you need, as long as you wash it after welding with TSP, vinegar and water, before doing any more priming or painting. > > > > > Blast Clean surfaces for severe service projects (immersion) to SSPCSP10/NACE No. 2 "Near White Metal finish". > > > > > > Prepare surfaces for atmospheric service projects to SSPCSP6/NACE No. 3 "Commercial Blast Clean finish". > > > > > > For minimum surface preparation, use conscientious power tool cleaning > > > methods in accordance with SSPC-SP3 to remove corrosion and loose or failing paint (feather edges of sound, existing paint back to a firm edge). > > > > > > Does anybody knows if wheelabrating can provide SSPCSP10 finish? > > > > > > Some info on surface preparation standards: > > > > > > SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning > > > > > > When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Staining shall be limited to no more than 5 percent of each unit area, and may consist of light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coatings. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). > > > > > > SSPC-SP6 / NACE 3 Commercial Blast Cleaning > > > > > > When viewed without magnification, the surface shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 66-2/3% of unit area, which shall be a square 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). Light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coating in less than 33-1/3% of the unit area is acceptable. > > > > > > SSPC-SP3 Power Tool Cleaning > > > > > > Removes all loose mill scale, loose rust, loose paint, and other loose detrimental foreign matter by power wire brushing, power sanding, power grinding, power tool chipping, and power tool descaling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28817|28532|2012-08-23 07:55:34|scott|Re: mold / transducer|at high enough concentrations this will kill mildew and mold. I'm not sure we are getting that strong a concentration and we have never really had issues with mildew or mold on this boat since we got it a few years ago so I wouldn't be able to say based on observation. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > did this actually kill existing mildew or just deal with the odor? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > > > I havent updated on this topic in a while but I purchased a ozone generator a few months ago and have used it twice on the boat. Our boat doesn't have a lot of odor to start with due to some intensive cleaning and painting of various parts of the hull inside over the last few years but it still gets stuffy and food odors etc over time and a bit of that nice bilge odor/diesel smell. > > > > The first time we used the ozone generator I set it on a timer that ran it for 2 hours every day for a week while we were away. The second time just a few days ago we ran it for 10 hours in one day while we were away from the boat and left all fans and the ac running. > > > > It makes an amazing difference. The boat afterward smells... well actually it doesn't smell at all. Just clean. We plan on the ozone generator to be a permanent part of the boats inventory. > > > > It was about 4 or 5 months between uses on the boat. I think I would make it a every 3 month item on the scheadule to do on the boat. > > > > http://foreverozone.com/products/basic-build-3600-mg-h-ozone-generator.html > > > > This is the unit i purchased and it works well but i find it to be really awkward to store and I worry about damaging the ceramic card that generates the ozone. I have thought about transfering the guts into a 6 inch piece of PVC tube to make it easier to store and damage proof. In looking at the components you could probably build your own for 30 or 50 dollars. > > Scott > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > Ozone is a toxic gas and can be very harmful (search Internet). Its effect similar to bleach. More likely you will need industrial ozone generator - not cheap household junk: > > > > > > http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html > > > > > > Ozone generators were used to disinfect drinking water on ships (I do know if it still used today). "Ozonized" water has very distinctive taste. > > > > > > I do not think that ozone is a good solution to get rid of mold. Good interior design should allow access to the hull anyway (removable interior)... > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > > > > > How do you get rid of mold you can't see? ..example under floor boards, behind plywood ... etc... I heard that ozone will work but not how to use it. > > > > > > > > .... > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Mold is another reason for not lining an interior before putting the parts in. If you have built your interior over a plywood lining, getting at mold when it begins to form behind the plywood, is a serious problem. I prefer to build the interior in first, then put panelling over only any foam which is still showing, making it easy to remove if mold forms behind it. There is no need for paneling inside lockers, altho it would be easy to pattern and cut panels and lay them in there, if one wished. > > > > > > > > > > > | 28818|28532|2012-08-25 18:17:15|brentswain38|Re: Zinc primer|A wheelabrader is a huge machine about 15 feet high with drops steel shot onto a rapidly spinning wheel, and uses the cenrtrifugal force to fire the shot at steel, which is fed thru on a set of powere d rolers. It fgoes in rusty and emerges clean, lookin g ike a sheet of concrete. If you can afford to buy the machine , you can do it yourself , but that could cost many thousands of dollars, along with the shop to house it in. . . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > I meant, can we wheel abrade ourself with the same result? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 21:45:57 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My boat has never been sandblasted. The wheel abraded , zinced and epoxied surface of 28 years ago is still going string. Wheel abrading and zinc primer is all you need, as long as you wash it after welding with TSP, vinegar and water, before doing any more priming or painting. > > > > > Blast Clean surfaces for severe service projects (immersion) to SSPCSP10/NACE No. 2 "Near White Metal finish". > > > > > > Prepare surfaces for atmospheric service projects to SSPCSP6/NACE No. 3 "Commercial Blast Clean finish". > > > > > > For minimum surface preparation, use conscientious power tool cleaning > > > methods in accordance with SSPC-SP3 to remove corrosion and loose or failing paint (feather edges of sound, existing paint back to a firm edge). > > > > > > Does anybody knows if wheelabrating can provide SSPCSP10 finish? > > > > > > Some info on surface preparation standards: > > > > > > SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning > > > > > > When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Staining shall be limited to no more than 5 percent of each unit area, and may consist of light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coatings. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). > > > > > > SSPC-SP6 / NACE 3 Commercial Blast Cleaning > > > > > > When viewed without magnification, the surface shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 66-2/3% of unit area, which shall be a square 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). Light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coating in less than 33-1/3% of the unit area is acceptable. > > > > > > SSPC-SP3 Power Tool Cleaning > > > > > > Removes all loose mill scale, loose rust, loose paint, and other loose detrimental foreign matter by power wire brushing, power sanding, power grinding, power tool chipping, and power tool descaling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28819|28532|2012-08-26 12:33:33|martin demers|Re: Zinc primer|Ok, I will stick to sandblasting! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 22:17:14 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer A wheelabrader is a huge machine about 15 feet high with drops steel shot onto a rapidly spinning wheel, and uses the cenrtrifugal force to fire the shot at steel, which is fed thru on a set of powere d rolers. It fgoes in rusty and emerges clean, lookin g ike a sheet of concrete. If you can afford to buy the machine , you can do it yourself , but that could cost many thousands of dollars, along with the shop to house it in. . . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > I meant, can we wheel abrade ourself with the same result? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 21:45:57 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My boat has never been sandblasted. The wheel abraded , zinced and epoxied surface of 28 years ago is still going string. Wheel abrading and zinc primer is all you need, as long as you wash it after welding with TSP, vinegar and water, before doing any more priming or painting. > > > > > Blast Clean surfaces for severe service projects (immersion) to SSPCSP10/NACE No. 2 "Near White Metal finish". > > > > > > Prepare surfaces for atmospheric service projects to SSPCSP6/NACE No. 3 "Commercial Blast Clean finish". > > > > > > For minimum surface preparation, use conscientious power tool cleaning > > > methods in accordance with SSPC-SP3 to remove corrosion and loose or failing paint (feather edges of sound, existing paint back to a firm edge). > > > > > > Does anybody knows if wheelabrating can provide SSPCSP10 finish? > > > > > > Some info on surface preparation standards: > > > > > > SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning > > > > > > When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Staining shall be limited to no more than 5 percent of each unit area, and may consist of light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coatings. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). > > > > > > SSPC-SP6 / NACE 3 Commercial Blast Cleaning > > > > > > When viewed without magnification, the surface shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 66-2/3% of unit area, which shall be a square 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). Light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coating in less than 33-1/3% of the unit area is acceptable. > > > > > > SSPC-SP3 Power Tool Cleaning > > > > > > Removes all loose mill scale, loose rust, loose paint, and other loose detrimental foreign matter by power wire brushing, power sanding, power grinding, power tool chipping, and power tool descaling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28820|28532|2012-08-27 09:58:55|dallas_kroon|Re: mold / transducer|If you are setting up a regular schedule to do ozone shock treatments on your boat, one should keep in mind the extent to which ozone damages rubbers, including natural rubber, nitrile rubber, polybutadiene, and styrene-butadiene rubber. This "ozone cracking", as it is called, is the reason anti-ozonants are added before the vulcanization step of tire production. Paraffin waxes can be used to create a protective barrier when no other option exists but you may wish to seal your engine compartment before shock treatments to protect the myriad of O-rings, fuel hoses and the like. Because ozone molecules are heavier than air, they tend to collect in the bilge, where your thru-hull hoses are, so they require particular attention. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > at high enough concentrations this will kill mildew and mold. I'm not sure we are getting that strong a concentration and we have never really had issues with mildew or mold on this boat since we got it a few years ago so I wouldn't be able to say based on observation. > Scott > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > did this actually kill existing mildew or just deal with the odor? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > > > > > I havent updated on this topic in a while but I purchased a ozone generator a few months ago and have used it twice on the boat. Our boat doesn't have a lot of odor to start with due to some intensive cleaning and painting of various parts of the hull inside over the last few years but it still gets stuffy and food odors etc over time and a bit of that nice bilge odor/diesel smell. > > > > > > The first time we used the ozone generator I set it on a timer that ran it for 2 hours every day for a week while we were away. The second time just a few days ago we ran it for 10 hours in one day while we were away from the boat and left all fans and the ac running. > > > > > > It makes an amazing difference. The boat afterward smells... well actually it doesn't smell at all. Just clean. We plan on the ozone generator to be a permanent part of the boats inventory. > > > > > > It was about 4 or 5 months between uses on the boat. I think I would make it a every 3 month item on the scheadule to do on the boat. > > > > > > http://foreverozone.com/products/basic-build-3600-mg-h-ozone-generator.html > > > > > > This is the unit i purchased and it works well but i find it to be really awkward to store and I worry about damaging the ceramic card that generates the ozone. I have thought about transfering the guts into a 6 inch piece of PVC tube to make it easier to store and damage proof. In looking at the components you could probably build your own for 30 or 50 dollars. > > > Scott > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > > > Ozone is a toxic gas and can be very harmful (search Internet). Its effect similar to bleach. More likely you will need industrial ozone generator - not cheap household junk: > > > > > > > > http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html > > > > > > > > Ozone generators were used to disinfect drinking water on ships (I do know if it still used today). "Ozonized" water has very distinctive taste. > > > > > > > > I do not think that ozone is a good solution to get rid of mold. Good interior design should allow access to the hull anyway (removable interior)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > How do you get rid of mold you can't see? ..example under floor boards, behind plywood ... etc... I heard that ozone will work but not how to use it. > > > > > > > > > > .... > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Mold is another reason for not lining an interior before putting the parts in. If you have built your interior over a plywood lining, getting at mold when it begins to form behind the plywood, is a serious problem. I prefer to build the interior in first, then put panelling over only any foam which is still showing, making it easy to remove if mold forms behind it. There is no need for paneling inside lockers, altho it would be easy to pattern and cut panels and lay them in there, if one wished. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 28821|28821|2012-08-27 10:43:43|Carl|Faraday(sp) cage|I've read that in an electrical storm you should put all your small portable electronics into the oven as it's a faraday cage to protect them, my question is with aall the ellectrrronics cellphones, laptops,ipods etc.... that we take to sea now, what wold make a better faraday cage if we're starting from scratch, grounded, isealated, metaal non metal etc.| 28822|28821|2012-08-27 17:13:37|brentswain38|Re: Faraday(sp) cage|Would having them all inside steel boat do the trick? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > > I've read that in an electrical storm you should put all your small portable electronics into the oven as it's a faraday cage to protect them, my question is with aall the ellectrrronics cellphones, laptops,ipods etc.... that we take to sea now, what wold make a better faraday cage if we're starting from scratch, grounded, isealated, metaal non metal etc. > | 28823|28532|2012-08-27 17:17:28|brentswain38|Re: Zinc primer|Some thinners can soften zinc primer so the epoxy falls off if you done leave it long enough before applying epoxy. Shot blasting ( wheelabrading) removes any oil, far better than any thinner would. Looks like they put it down on wood before priming, which caused your problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Thanks Aaron. I forgot to post first step (which should be done before all others): > > Use SSPC-SP1 solvent cleaning to remove oil, grease and other > contaminants prior to employing surface preparation methods > > And it looks like it is most important step... ;) > > I had one area on wheelabrated & primed steel which did not look right. I tried to use power wire-wheel to clean it, but it did not work well. Finally, someone checked that area and told me that it has some grease on it and I was just rubbing that grease around on the steel with wire-wheel. I cleaned it with industrial degreaser, used whire-wheel and re-primed it. Now it is OK. It looks like whatever grease it was, it was not removed during wheelabrating and primer just would not stick to metal. > > Do you know if abrating companies clean the steel before abrating/blasting? Or they just process the steel "as is"? > > Note: > > SSPC-SP1 Solvent Cleaning > > Removal of all visible oil, grease, soil, drawing and cutting compounds, and other soluble contaminants from steel surfaces with solvent, vapor, cleaning compound, alkali, emulsifying agent, or steam. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > If the wheel shot is new then it will give a white metal finish  > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: wild_explorer > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 3:04 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinc primer > > > > > > > >   > > > > Surface preparation specified by Wasser for MC-Zinc100: > > > > Blast Clean surfaces for severe service projects (immersion) to SSPCSP10/NACE No. 2 "Near White Metal finish". > > > > Prepare surfaces for atmospheric service projects to SSPCSP6/NACE No. 3 "Commercial Blast Clean finish". > > > > For minimum surface preparation, use conscientious power tool cleaning > > methods in accordance with SSPC-SP3 to remove corrosion and loose or failing paint (feather edges of sound, existing paint back to a firm edge). > > > > Does anybody knows if wheelabrating can provide SSPCSP10 finish? > > > > Some info on surface preparation standards: > > > > SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning > > > > When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Staining shall be limited to no more than 5 percent of each unit area, and may consist of light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coatings. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). > > > > SSPC-SP6 / NACE 3 Commercial Blast Cleaning > > > > When viewed without magnification, the surface shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 66-2/3% of unit area, which shall be a square 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). Light shadows, slight streaks, or minor discolorations caused by stains of rust, stains of mill scale, or stains of previously applied coating in less than 33-1/3% of the unit area is acceptable. > > > > SSPC-SP3 Power Tool Cleaning > > > > Removes all loose mill scale, loose rust, loose paint, and other loose detrimental foreign matter by power wire brushing, power sanding, power grinding, power tool chipping, and power tool descaling. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 28824|28821|2012-08-27 20:25:50|Matt Malone|Re: Faraday(sp) cage|I am sure a steel boat helps, but the semi-isolated conductors leading in and out (antennas, grounding, lubricated shafts) provide paths, and it takes only a tiny fraction of a lightning strike's energy to destroy circuitry. Electronics connected to a wire, even if the lightning does not strike the wire, energy can be induced onto the wire (like an antenna) from the spike of electrical and magnetic energy that surrounds the bolt. I would focus on disconnecting wires to the items one is most concerned about. I like the oven as the next step. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:13:36 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Faraday(sp) cage Would having them all inside steel boat do the trick? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > > I've read that in an electrical storm you should put all your small portable electronics into the oven as it's a faraday cage to protect them, my question is with aall the ellectrrronics cellphones, laptops,ipods etc.... that we take to sea now, what wold make a better faraday cage if we're starting from scratch, grounded, isealated, metaal non metal etc. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28825|28821|2012-08-27 22:57:38|David Jones|Re: Faraday(sp) cage|If you want to start from scratch and build the best "box" you can for this kind of shielding, build it from Mu-metal... dj On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Matt Malone wrote: > > > I am sure a steel boat helps, but the semi-isolated conductors leading in and out (antennas, grounding, lubricated shafts) provide paths, and it takes only a tiny fraction of a lightning strike's energy to destroy circuitry. Electronics connected to a wire, even if the lightning does not strike the wire, energy can be induced onto the wire (like an antenna) from the spike of electrical and magnetic energy that surrounds the bolt. > > I would focus on disconnecting wires to the items one is most concerned about. I like the oven as the next step. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:13:36 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Faraday(sp) cage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would having them all inside steel boat do the trick? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > >> > >> I've read that in an electrical storm you should put all your small portable electronics into the oven as it's a faraday cage to protect them, my question is with aall the ellectrrronics cellphones, laptops,ipods etc.... that we take to sea now, what wold make a better faraday cage if we're starting from scratch, grounded, isealated, metaal non metal etc. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 28826|28826|2012-08-28 12:47:53|martin|Saving small electronics|I've always wondered if one of those lead shield bags that I used to put my camera film in for getting through scanners at airports would work for hand held electronics??? Thoughts!! Martin...| 28827|28826|2012-08-28 16:03:57|Matt Malone|Re: Saving small electronics|Saving them from what ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mforster@... Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 16:47:51 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Saving small electronics I've always wondered if one of those lead shield bags that I used to put my camera film in for getting through scanners at airports would work for hand held electronics??? Thoughts!! Martin... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28828|28828|2012-08-28 17:18:05|braschi.luca|Hello!|Hello everybody, thank you for add me in this group!!! My name is Luca Braschi, I'm Italian and I'm an Engraver. I love sail and I have a dream... of course is a sail dream... Sorry for my English... Thank you again. Luca| 28829|28786|2012-08-28 17:21:35|brentswain38|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|I think about 15 pounds for other pieces would be more accurate, except rigging wire , which is around 60 lbs for a 36. On a steel mast, being able to simply weld tangs directly tot he mast offers some weight savings. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Oops I mean 150 lbs for other pieces--which does seem heavy still--perhaps the mast was heavier walled than I used in the calculation--there is no exposed edge to determine wall thickness and I don't have a thickness tool people have mentioned. Thanks for your input. MarkH > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark Hamill > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:17 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > Calculator for pipe > http://www.jdfields.com/products/pipe-weight-per-foot-calculator.html > > Chart for weights of stainless rod imperial measure > http://www.fidelitystainless.com/WeightCharts/Round%20Bar%20Weight%20Chart.pdf > > So if my mast was 1/8" X 5.5" X 42" it should weigh about 301 lbs on its > own. There is 28.5 feet of 3/8" stainles rod for mast steps which should > weigh about 10.7 lbs. and that means there are about 110 lbls of other > pieces which makes sense. Well question answered-- fun!!! MarkH > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matt Malone" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:44 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > Thank you for this thread and all the responses. I needed to do some > > computation for a truss mast and one of the elements I was missing was > > permissible weight. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: akenai@... > > Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 20:42:28 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My mast is the F760 E and 6.07 lbs per ft x 50 thats 303lbs without > > the boom or sail wound up inside. > > http://www.sparcraft.com/uk/products/masts/furling_masts/measurements_and_sections/default.asp > > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Paul Wilson > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:42 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > Based on these sections I am guessing my alloy oval mast which is 9 inch > > > > by 5.5 inch is about 5.5 pounds per foot x 45 feet or about 250 > > > > pounds. Seems about right. Note that I have a very heavy duty alloy > > > > mast. I have seen much smaller sections on 36 footers if you happen to > > > > have double spreaders. > > > > > > > > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast Sections > > > > > > > > On 19/08/2012 12:35 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > > >> http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast > >> Sections > > > >> > > > >> On 19/08/2012 12:10 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > > >>> No that is extremely heavy. I don't know what mine weighs but I can > > > >>> easily lift one end of my mast when it is laying on two saw horses. > > > >>> > > > >>> Paul > > > >>> On 19/08/2012 11:06 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > > >>>> I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a usual > > > >>>> weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? > > > >>>> MarkH > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> ------------------------------------ > > > >>> > > > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28830|28786|2012-08-28 18:39:13|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared to 5.90 pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and compression strengths given here: http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, making it more likely to break on impact. Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar diagonals too. I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower sections. And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as the aluminium extrusion. All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble at all. Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, well, taking it down and getting things done to it. The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting more lights, and antennas on the mast. Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds to the entire rig. As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 21:21:31 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint I think about 15 pounds for other pieces would be more accurate, except rigging wire , which is around 60 lbs for a 36. On a steel mast, being able to simply weld tangs directly tot he mast offers some weight savings. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Oops I mean 150 lbs for other pieces--which does seem heavy still--perhaps the mast was heavier walled than I used in the calculation--there is no exposed edge to determine wall thickness and I don't have a thickness tool people have mentioned. Thanks for your input. MarkH > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark Hamill > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:17 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > Calculator for pipe > http://www.jdfields.com/products/pipe-weight-per-foot-calculator.html > > Chart for weights of stainless rod imperial measure > http://www.fidelitystainless.com/WeightCharts/Round%20Bar%20Weight%20Chart.pdf > > So if my mast was 1/8" X 5.5" X 42" it should weigh about 301 lbs on its > own. There is 28.5 feet of 3/8" stainles rod for mast steps which should > weigh about 10.7 lbs. and that means there are about 110 lbls of other > pieces which makes sense. Well question answered-- fun!!! MarkH > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matt Malone" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:44 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > Thank you for this thread and all the responses. I needed to do some > > computation for a truss mast and one of the elements I was missing was > > permissible weight. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: akenai@... > > Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 20:42:28 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My mast is the F760 E and 6.07 lbs per ft x 50 thats 303lbs without > > the boom or sail wound up inside. > > http://www.sparcraft.com/uk/products/masts/furling_masts/measurements_and_sections/default.asp > > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Paul Wilson > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:42 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > Based on these sections I am guessing my alloy oval mast which is 9 inch > > > > by 5.5 inch is about 5.5 pounds per foot x 45 feet or about 250 > > > > pounds. Seems about right. Note that I have a very heavy duty alloy > > > > mast. I have seen much smaller sections on 36 footers if you happen to > > > > have double spreaders. > > > > > > > > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast Sections > > > > > > > > On 19/08/2012 12:35 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > > >> http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html#Kenyon Mast > >> Sections > > > >> > > > >> On 19/08/2012 12:10 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > > >>> No that is extremely heavy. I don't know what mine weighs but I can > > > >>> easily lift one end of my mast when it is laying on two saw horses. > > > >>> > > > >>> Paul > > > >>> On 19/08/2012 11:06 a.m., Mark Hamill wrote: > > > >>>> I just weighed my mast for a 36 and it weighs 465 lbs--is this a usual > > > >>>> weight?? Any recommendations for what to paint it with?? > > > >>>> MarkH > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> ------------------------------------ > > > >>> > > > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28831|28786|2012-08-28 20:57:17|Mark Hamill|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Matt: Just a note on galvanizing--you would have to have holes at both ends of every piece of pipe--there can be no enclosed sections. You are lucky to be close to a galvanizing shop. By the way--I got quite a few small pieces done in Calgary and all they asked for was a case of beer. They bought a centrifuge galvanizer for bolts etc.which was really handy. To save yourself a surprise--weigh the items before bringing them in--the weight really adds up and I had a big surprise one time--like $900--it was completely legit but it just didn't occur to me it would cost that much!!!!! In Vancouver, I weighed stuff and found they tried to overcharge me which I was told is common practice. Make up on one job what you lose on the other. Regarding painting---Brent mentioned something about galvanizing primer-- the cure time on the Aervoe stuff I just applied is recoat in 48 hours. MarkH| 28832|28786|2012-08-28 21:10:45|M.J. Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|I was planning on sealing, evacuating and back-filling the main tubes with a slight overpressure of nitrogen. No air, no rust. A tire pressure gauge will tell me if that changes. Matt Mark Hamill wrote: Matt: Just a note on galvanizing--you would have to have holes at both ends of every piece of pipe--there can be no enclosed sections. You are lucky to be close to a galvanizing shop. By the way--I got quite a few small pieces done in Calgary and all they asked for was a case of beer. They bought a centrifuge galvanizer for bolts etc.which was really handy. To save yourself a surprise--weigh the items before bringing them in--the weight really adds up and I had a big surprise one time--like $900--it was completely legit but it just didn't occur to me it would cost that much!!!!! In Vancouver, I weighed stuff and found they tried to overcharge me which I was told is common practice. Make up on one job what you lose on the other. Regarding painting---Brent mentioned something about galvanizing primer-- the cure time on the Aervoe stuff I just applied is recoat in 48 hours. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28833|28786|2012-08-28 21:35:41|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|I get lots of galvanizing done, every skid I design at my job gets galvanized. If you send a closed hollow pipe to a galvanizer they will just grab a torch and burn vent holes in it without asking. If they don’t it very well may explode in the hot zinc tank! So galvanized parts really hold up well, with the inside and outside both galvanized. I also used to run a crane business, and a tower company was one of our better customers. Free standing pipe towers with very little metal in them, and they took 100 mile an hour winds. I did lots of 80 footers, and one that was even 160 feet tall. The galvanized ones were always in pieces about 20 feet long bolted together with flanges. They gave me a really good deal on our 80 footer in our yard. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: M.J. Malone Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint I was planning on sealing, evacuating and back-filling the main tubes with a slight overpressure of nitrogen. No air, no rust. A tire pressure gauge will tell me if that changes. Matt Mark Hamill wrote: Matt: Just a note on galvanizing--you would have to have holes at both ends of every piece of pipe--there can be no enclosed sections. You are lucky to be close to a galvanizing shop. By the way--I got quite a few small pieces done in Calgary and all they asked for was a case of beer. They bought a centrifuge galvanizer for bolts etc.which was really handy. To save yourself a surprise--weigh the items before bringing them in--the weight really adds up and I had a big surprise one time--like $900--it was completely legit but it just didn't occur to me it would cost that much!!!!! In Vancouver, I weighed stuff and found they tried to overcharge me which I was told is common practice. Make up on one job what you lose on the other. Regarding painting---Brent mentioned something about galvanizing primer-- the cure time on the Aervoe stuff I just applied is recoat in 48 hours. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28834|28826|2012-08-28 21:57:33|David Jones|Re: Saving small electronics|lead is excellent for X-rays, but isn't much better for electro-magnetic fields than air. Depends what you are shielding against. This began by talking about shielding from lightning .... dj On Tue, 28 Aug 2012, martin wrote: > > > I've always wondered if one of those lead shield bags that I used to put my camera film in > for getting through scanners at airports would work for hand held electronics??? > Thoughts!! Martin... > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28835|28786|2012-08-28 22:53:20|Paul Wilson|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|I just had an anchor and about 150 feet of 3/8 inch chain re-galvanized in NZ. They drilled holes in the tip of the plow anchor. It came back hollow so I assume the lead in the tip drained out. I will have to pour some lead back in. 100 kg of total weight cost me $230 NZD (about $185 USD) which I think is quite reasonable since the chain has a lot of surface area and holds a lot of zinc. Cheers, Paul On 29/08/2012 1:37 p.m., Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > I get lots of galvanizing done, every skid I design at my job gets > galvanized. If you send a closed hollow pipe to a galvanizer they will > just grab a torch and burn vent holes in it without asking. If they > don’t it very well may explode in the hot zinc tank! So galvanized > parts really hold up well, with the inside and outside both > galvanized. I also used to run a crane business, and a tower company > was one of our better customers. Free standing pipe towers with very > little metal in them, and they took 100 mile an hour winds. I did lots > of 80 footers, and one that was even 160 feet tall. The galvanized > ones were always in pieces about 20 feet long bolted together with > flanges. They gave me a really good deal on our 80 footer in our yard. > > Gary H. Lucas > | 28836|28786|2012-08-29 00:39:41|Kim|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf aluminium mast? Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so could dramatically reduce its windage. Thanks! Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared to 5.90 > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and compression strengths given here: > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, making it more likely to break on impact. > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar diagonals too. > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower sections. > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as the aluminium extrusion. > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble at all. > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds to the entire rig. > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > Matt ______________________________________________ | 28837|28786|2012-08-29 01:20:37|Aaron|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Mat Is this a three or four leg and what is the width of the frame work?   Some things seam to good to be true. What is the total surface area ? Aaron ________________________________ From: Kim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 8:39 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint   Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf aluminium mast? Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so could dramatically reduce its windage. Thanks! Kim. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared to 5.90 > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and compression strengths given here: > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, making it more likely to break on impact. > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar diagonals too. > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower sections. > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as the aluminium extrusion. > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble at all. > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds to the entire rig. > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > Matt ______________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28838|28786|2012-08-29 12:06:42|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Kim, Let me spend some time going over my numbers and checking to make sure I have not missed anything obvious. I have not calculated for the combined fore-aft buckle with twist failure mode. How do I explain this..... take a really long 2"x10" beam, lay it flat and hang a weight from it. It will bow down and have no particular tendency to twist... that is because it is already bending in the easiest bending direction, called the minimum structural moment of area or "I" direction. Stand it on edge and constrain the ends so they cannot fall over and hang a weight in the middle. The beam is now in its stiffest bending direction. For enough weight, eventually, the beam will twist to one side in the middle and bend down more. For enough weight, the beam will attempt to turn to an easier bending direction. That is why one puts in cross bracing between floor joists in a house. For the truss mast I am looking at, the side to side buckle is already at the lowest structural moment of area direction (easiest bending direction), so, I am feeling that will not have a tendency to twist to an "easier" direction. However, fore-aft, from sail forces, the mast is at its maximum structural moment of area and I just have not finished considered the potential for twist yet. Round pipe masts and closed aluminium extrusions have a lot of torsional stiffness but if the cross-braces are right, then so does the truss. The my gut feeling so far is, the ratio of I's from easiest to stiffest is 50%, whereas for the aluminium sections I am comparing to, it is 35% and 36% and it is the difference in stiffness in one direction compared to the other that would drive the twist. The thing is, a triangular truss need only rotate 30 degrees to reach a minimum stiffness direction whereas an extruded section has to rotate 90 degrees. Having two lower shrouds on each side, set slightly fore and aft of the mast would also help reduce twist, if the boat is very stiff. My gut feeling right now is, it requires more energy, so, more force to buckle with twist. As for costing... I can get schedule 40 black iron pipe at my scrap yard for $0.35 a pound. That is less than $100 for the entire mast. The only thing that will make this at all competitive to an aluminium extrusion is if you count your time -- there is no way for me to count that for someone else. The 5.5" pipe, if bought new, will be pricey, but that might be found at a scrap yard also. Thing is, 1/2" schedule 40 pipe is pretty tough to dent. It can end up bent at a scrap yard, but you just don't buy that piece. Depending on where you are, 5.5" pipe might be more common, but at a scrap yard, it will more likely get bend. Right now, the design is looking like 1/2" schedule 40 pipe for the three uprights. The uprights are set with 2 toward the bow, one aft. The two at the front are 12" apart and the aft one is , set 12" aft -- it is not a symmetric truss. I have calculated for 1/2" schedule 40 pipe as horizontals at no greater that 69 cm spacing. The diagonals I have not worked out completely yet. I am looking at double diagonals of 3/16" round bar, idea is, tension only in one or the other, depending on how the truss is trying to twist. So in each window of each face of a truss segment, there is an X of cross braces. Like this: http://www.emeraldinsight.com/content_images/fig/1560140207008.png I worry a bit about residual loads in the diagonals from thermal expansion from welding. I am thinking taping them with a little bar and looking for a consistent tone will tell me at least if they are consistent. I might re-do the calculations with 1/2" pipe for single diagonals, loading them both in tension and compression as the mast tries to twist one way or the other. Like this: http://img.archiexpo.com/images_ae/photo-m2/glued-laminated-lattice-beams-60685-2250565.jpg It might be easy to create a twisted mast from residual forces after welding. I have also considered steel cable as double diagonals, but, I have made no calculations yet. "Standard" radio mast trusses have no horizontals, only diagonals, and then they have little horizontals welded in on the inside corner of some diagonals, to make steps. The member buckling calculations are harder for these. I have calculated also for 3/4" x 3/8" flat bar as horizontals to reduce windage. They should take 300 lbs foot loads without bending however, for me, at 220 pounds without a lot of extra gear, I would be careful to spread my weight around and climb slowly as I climb the mast. When I got up to to the place where I was going to work, I would put my feet on two different horizontals while working. For 1/2" round pipe, there is no danger of me bending it under any reasonable foot-loading, even standing on one foot, straining with tools. I have not calculated the effects of a safety line hook coming tight quickly (the climber falls on their safety line). I believe in really short safety lines, and no less than 2 of them, so I am never unhooked, and cannot fall far. My job does not require a lot of moving around while I work and I imagine it would be the same on a masthead. Construction workers need longer safety lines so they have the scope to move around and work and such a long safety line coming taught might well be a higher loading case then service loads for the horizontals of a truss. The only way for me to feel really good about this entire idea is to weld up one section myself and abuse it. This will test both my welding abilities and my calculations. I figure the test will cost me $50 in scrap pipe for a 20 foot long section of truss. I can set the finished piece across saw-horses and weight it down and try to twist it, and see what happens. If it works out, it would become the uppermost section of my mast and I would make the two 15' lower sections to reach the spreaders, when I was more practiced. Yes, I could make a tapered mast, but, that is more difficult to cut the pieces for welding. As it is, I am already considering jigs to cut the ends of the horizontals easily, consistently and quickly so they mate nicely to the verticals. I would make everything to fit the rigging I got with my fractured mast. Someone else working from scratch would have one less thing to worry about. There is a lot more to think about with trusses, but, just the idea of being able to erect it by one's self is attractive. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kimdxx@... Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:39:40 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf aluminium mast? Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so could dramatically reduce its windage. Thanks! Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared to 5.90 > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and compression strengths given here: > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, making it more likely to break on impact. > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar diagonals too. > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower sections. > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as the aluminium extrusion. > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble at all. > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds to the entire rig. > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > Matt ______________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28839|28786|2012-08-29 15:36:14|Paul Wilson|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|There was a boat in the Bay of Islands in NZ with a truss mast. I am not there otherwise I would take a closer look for you. I would think that windage/noise would be the main disadvantage. Resale value as well if you worry about such things. FYI, I posted a file awhile ago called "Build your own mast" in the files sections. It talks about making you own mast from standard aluminum pipe. You might find it interesting. I have often wondered about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval between two large rollers. The mind wanders..... Cheers, Paul| 28840|28786|2012-08-29 15:38:19|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|" I have often wondered about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval between two large rollers. The mind wanders....." I have thought of this too... I would think it would only work with steel. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 07:34:07 +1200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint There was a boat in the Bay of Islands in NZ with a truss mast. I am not there otherwise I would take a closer look for you. I would think that windage/noise would be the main disadvantage. Resale value as well if you worry about such things. FYI, I posted a file awhile ago called "Build your own mast" in the files sections. It talks about making you own mast from standard aluminum pipe. You might find it interesting. I have often wondered about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval between two large rollers. The mind wanders..... Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28841|28786|2012-08-29 15:49:09|haidan|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|It's kinda an interesting idea, I'm curious about the foot print of it, the wider the better I imagine? I think it could be a real pain to maintain though, all those edges and corners, 50' in the air. What about building it out of aluminum 1" sch40 and flat bar diagonals would be about the same weight. More expensive though if you could find most of the flat bar for the struts at the scrap yard you'd just have to buy the pipe new. Assembling it would be pretty easy as long as you were careful to avoid causing it to twist on the weld up.| 28842|28786|2012-08-29 16:46:48|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|"Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf aluminium mast?" https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=20&cat1Name=Masts&familyID=46&familyName=DM-800+Mast Dwyermast: DM-800, perhaps not perfectly suited to the application I describe is $80 / foot. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kimdxx@... Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:39:40 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf aluminium mast? Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so could dramatically reduce its windage. Thanks! Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared to 5.90 > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and compression strengths given here: > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, making it more likely to break on impact. > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar diagonals too. > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower sections. > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as the aluminium extrusion. > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble at all. > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds to the entire rig. > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > Matt ______________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28843|28786|2012-08-29 19:41:12|Mark Hamill|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Matt: For what it is worth, I was reading something decades ago and the author mentioned that when they made aluminum pipe into oval masts they used a "ram" and I cannot remember if they used a shape to press it into. This article is on steel masts http://www.metalsailboats.com/STEEL-SAILBOAT-MAST-DESIGN.html. I tried Googling "making round aluminum pipe into oval mast" and that was one of the pieces that came up. MarkH| 28844|28786|2012-08-29 19:44:39|Tom Mann|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|IMHO I don't think a 50 foot mast made with three 1/2" sch 40 uprights could handle the compression loads? On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > "Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf > aluminium mast?" > > > https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=20&cat1Name=Masts&familyID=46&familyName=DM-800+Mast > > Dwyermast: DM-800, perhaps not perfectly suited to the application I > describe is $80 / foot. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:39:40 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! > > > > Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf > aluminium mast? > > > > Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? > > > > It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals > and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so > could dramatically reduce its windage. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Kim. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 > steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of > spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I know > it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The truss > mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared to 5.90 > > > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same > boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and > compression strengths given here: > > > > > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > > > > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right > now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > > > > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same > commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a lot > of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal > halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more > floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, the > extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a tremendous > amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, making it more > likely to break on impact. > > > > > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not > sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up by > steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss mast -- > it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and larger. > Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also looking at > flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar diagonals too. > > > > > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an > error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any > other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 > pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble > believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 > pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at > right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with a > few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as you > go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower sections. > > > > > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged > lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, whereas a > really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with lots of spots > to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > > > > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the > needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended > extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as > the aluminium extrusion. > > > > > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the > limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a reduced-sized > truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig on a BS36, or > more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even a radar at the > masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds for the truss -- > that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > > > > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire > mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford > that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces of > mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble at > all. > > > > > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled > by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, > well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > > > > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an > Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft > bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same > spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than half > the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet tall than > the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > > > > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say > his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and > hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting > more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > > > > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a > not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing > over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds to > the entire rig. > > > > > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my > calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is > certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > > > > > Matt > > ______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28845|28786|2012-08-29 20:19:26|wild_explorer|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Matt, have you consider "modified" A-frame mast (3 legs)? P.S. This may help to get data for your calculations for different hollow steel sections/profiles: http://www.steeltubeinstitute.org/pdf/brochures/dimension_brochure.pdf| 28846|28786|2012-08-29 22:27:40|Kim|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Matt ... Many thanks for all that detail! This becomes more and more interesting. All the boats I've built in the past were launched without a rig, because I could never afford such things when they hit the water. It was always a year or so afterwards before they got a mast. For my 26-footer, the idea of using a very cheap truss mast could save it from the same fate! If the truss mast is actually lighter and stronger as well, then that's a bonus. It would be labour-intensive to build (but my labour costs me nothing), and there would be a lot of welding; but the steel pipe itself is so cheap it's almost free! I assume that even basic stuff like shroud tangs, etc, could be fabricated from mild steel and simply welded on. Of course, the obvious question I'm asking myself is: Why doesn't everyone have a truss mast? Maybe a truss mast would be a turbulence generator and completely destroy laminar flow over the mainsail? Maybe gale force winds would have a lot more to work on, so the issue of windage might be serious in a storm (but would this be any worse compared to a conventional mast)? Maybe wind noise through the truss mast's lattice structure would become unbearable? Some years ago there was a big ferro boat that was moored in the Brisbane River that had a very high truss mast, and its mast looked a bit strange (if not ugly); but I suspect I thought that only because it was so unconventional. On the other hand, it would be very CHEAP!! :-) It would be easy to climb. Running electrical wires to the masthead, and maintaining them, would be simpler. There would be no more "lost halyards" inside the mast. There seem to be many advantages. Hope this discussion continues. I'll be following it with great interest! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > Kim, > > Let me spend some time going over my numbers and checking to make sure I have not missed anything obvious. I have not calculated for the combined fore-aft buckle with twist failure mode. > > How do I explain this..... take a really long 2"x10" beam, lay it flat and hang a weight from it. It will bow down and have no particular tendency to twist... that is because it is already bending in the easiest bending direction, called the minimum structural moment of area or "I" direction. Stand it on edge and constrain the ends so they cannot fall over and hang a weight in the middle. The beam is now in its stiffest bending direction. For enough weight, eventually, the beam will twist to one side in the middle and bend down more. For enough weight, the beam will attempt to turn to an easier bending direction. That is why one puts in cross bracing between floor joists in a house. > > For the truss mast I am looking at, the side to side buckle is already at the lowest structural moment of area direction (easiest bending direction), so, I am feeling that will not have a tendency to twist to an "easier" direction. However, fore-aft, from sail forces, the mast is at its maximum structural moment of area and I just have not finished considered the potential for twist yet. Round pipe masts and closed aluminium extrusions have a lot of torsional stiffness but if the cross-braces are right, then so does the truss. The my gut feeling so far is, the ratio of I's from easiest to stiffest is 50%, whereas for the aluminium sections I am comparing to, it is 35% and 36% and it is the difference in stiffness in one direction compared to the other that would drive the twist. The thing is, a triangular truss need only rotate 30 degrees to reach a minimum stiffness direction whereas an extruded section has to rotate 90 degrees. Having two lower shrouds on each side, set slightly fore and aft of the mast would also help reduce twist, if the boat is very stiff. My gut feeling right now is, it requires more energy, so, more force to buckle with twist. > > As for costing... I can get schedule 40 black iron pipe at my scrap yard for $0.35 a pound. That is less than $100 for the entire mast. The only thing that will make this at all competitive to an aluminium extrusion is if you count your time -- there is no way for me to count that for someone else. The 5.5" pipe, if bought new, will be pricey, but that might be found at a scrap yard also. Thing is, 1/2" schedule 40 pipe is pretty tough to dent. It can end up bent at a scrap yard, but you just don't buy that piece. Depending on where you are, 5.5" pipe might be more common, but at a scrap yard, it will more likely get bend. > > Right now, the design is looking like 1/2" schedule 40 pipe for the three uprights. The uprights are set with 2 toward the bow, one aft. The two at the front are 12" apart and the aft one is , set 12" aft -- it is not a symmetric truss. I have calculated for 1/2" schedule 40 pipe as horizontals at no greater that 69 cm spacing. > > The diagonals I have not worked out completely yet. I am looking at double diagonals of 3/16" round bar, idea is, tension only in one or the other, depending on how the truss is trying to twist. So in each window of each face of a truss segment, there is an X of cross braces. Like this: > > http://www.emeraldinsight.com/content_images/fig/1560140207008.png > > I worry a bit about residual loads in the diagonals from thermal expansion from welding. I am thinking taping them with a little bar and looking for a consistent tone will tell me at least if they are consistent. > > I might re-do the calculations with 1/2" pipe for single diagonals, loading them both in tension and compression as the mast tries to twist one way or the other. Like this: > > http://img.archiexpo.com/images_ae/photo-m2/glued-laminated-lattice-beams-60685-2250565.jpg > > It might be easy to create a twisted mast from residual forces after welding. > > I have also considered steel cable as double diagonals, but, I have made no calculations yet. "Standard" radio mast trusses have no horizontals, only diagonals, and then they have little horizontals welded in on the inside corner of some diagonals, to make steps. The member buckling calculations are harder for these. > > I have calculated also for 3/4" x 3/8" flat bar as horizontals to reduce windage. They should take 300 lbs foot loads without bending however, for me, at 220 pounds without a lot of extra gear, I would be careful to spread my weight around and climb slowly as I climb the mast. When I got up to to the place where I was going to work, I would put my feet on two different horizontals while working. For 1/2" round pipe, there is no danger of me bending it under any reasonable foot-loading, even standing on one foot, straining with tools. > > I have not calculated the effects of a safety line hook coming tight quickly (the climber falls on their safety line). I believe in really short safety lines, and no less than 2 of them, so I am never unhooked, and cannot fall far. My job does not require a lot of moving around while I work and I imagine it would be the same on a masthead. Construction workers need longer safety lines so they have the scope to move around and work and such a long safety line coming taught might well be a higher loading case then service loads for the horizontals of a truss. > > The only way for me to feel really good about this entire idea is to weld up one section myself and abuse it. This will test both my welding abilities and my calculations. I figure the test will cost me $50 in scrap pipe for a 20 foot long section of truss. I can set the finished piece across saw-horses and weight it down and try to twist it, and see what happens. If it works out, it would become the uppermost section of my mast and I would make the two 15' lower sections to reach the spreaders, when I was more practiced. Yes, I could make a tapered mast, but, that is more difficult to cut the pieces for welding. As it is, I am already considering jigs to cut the ends of the horizontals easily, consistently and quickly so they mate nicely to the verticals. > > I would make everything to fit the rigging I got with my fractured mast. Someone else working from scratch would have one less thing to worry about. > > There is a lot more to think about with trusses, but, just the idea of being able to erect it by one's self is attractive. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:39:40 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! > > Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf aluminium mast? > > Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? > > It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so could dramatically reduce its windage. > > Thanks! > > Kim. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared to 5.90 > > > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and compression strengths given here: > > > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, making it more likely to break on impact. > > > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar diagonals too. > > > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower sections. > > > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as the aluminium extrusion. > > > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble at all. > > > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds to the entire rig. > > > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > > > Matt > ______________________________________________ | 28847|28786|2012-08-29 23:25:47|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|OK Tom, Fair enough, lets do some back of the envelop calculations. Schedule 40 1/2" pipe actually has dimensions of 0.840" (more than 3/4") outside, and a wall thickness of 0.109" http://www.northyorkiron.com/a_prod_black_pipe.php The cross-sectional area of the pipe is A = pi * (Rout^2 - Rin^2) = 0.250 in^2 The yield strength of Schedule 40 pipe is given here I believe as Carbon Steel Pipe ASTM A53: http://www.hollaender.com/files/1/Tech_Data/handraildesign.pdf I am using the yield and not the ultimate strength because, I do not want the mast to get bent. Sigma_yield = 30,000 psi minimum Yield Load = Sigma_yield * area of 3 pipes = 30,000 * 3/4 in^2 = 22,500 lbs This meets the rule of thumb for mast design for a 10 ton (imperial) boat given here: http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htmbut it does not exceed it by as much as I might have hoped. Hummm. I was using a higher yield strength for steel in my sheet. I am not pleased with this narrow pass. Buckling of the pipe is a matter of how closely spaced the cross braces are, using Euler's buckling formula: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckling F = (pi^2 EI) / (KL)^2 or for a desired Buckling Load F, the cross-brace spacing L is given as: L = SQRT[ (pi^2 EI) / (F K^2) ] I = pi /4 (Rout^4 - Rin^4) E = 48,000 psi (from Hollaendar) K = 1 is a conservative assumption of pin-jointed whereas the pipes are actually welded and continuous between cells so better supported. I = 0.04413 in^4 L = 2 ft (24 inches) E = 30,000,000 psi F = 22,684 pounds, per pipe, more than 3 times the rule of thumb. So straight compression, without buckling it the weak point of the 1/2" schedule 40 pipe truss. So, the question is not structural stiffness, it is raw strength and the amount of steel. The truss needs more vertical steel. Going to 1/2" schedule 80 pipe pushes the minimum compression strength to about 30,000 pounds, and at 10" wide by 12" long stance, and 75 cm between cross braces, buckling loads are also about 30,000 pounds. That truss is 5.3 pounds / foot, or 266 pounds for a 50 ' mast.... Maybe that is a better design. On the other hand, going to 3/4" schedule 40, also gives about the same strengths for the truss, but, the mass of an assembled truss is about 5.0 pounds / foot or 250 pounds for a 50' mass. There is always 1" OD, 0.125" wall structural steel tube that would be made of a higher grade of steel with a higher yield strength, at 5.2 pounds per foot for the assembled truss. But that is not going to be acquired @ 35 cents a pound at a scrap yard. Lots of options... FYI, the compression = displacement buckling length for a BS36 @ 18,367 pounds, for 5.5" diameter 1/8" pipe on a BS 36 is only about 29 feet, so, buckling is the weaker point of the steel pipe mast design -- it has plenty of vertical steel for raw compression strength. The aluminum extrusions I looked at, recommended for boats of the displacement of the BS36, had a smaller EI than Brent's steel pipe design, so, they are even weaker in buckling. So we are talking about potential improvements over existing options. So, in summary, I think you are right Tom, the 1/2" schedule 40 only barely met the rule of thumb, and did not meet the Nordic design of 1.5 times displacement, whereas either 1/2" schedule 80 or 3/4" schedule 40 would do much better, at a slight increase in weight. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: tazmannm@... Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:44:38 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint IMHO I don't think a 50 foot mast made with three 1/2" sch 40 uprights could handle the compression loads? On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > "Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf > aluminium mast?" > > > https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=20&cat1Name=Masts&familyID=46&familyName=DM-800+Mast > > Dwyermast: DM-800, perhaps not perfectly suited to the application I > describe is $80 / foot. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:39:40 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! > > > > Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf > aluminium mast? > > > > Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? > > > > It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals > and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so > could dramatically reduce its windage. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Kim. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 > steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of > spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I know > it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The truss > mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared to 5.90 > > > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same > boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and > compression strengths given here: > > > > > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > > > > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right > now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > > > > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same > commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a lot > of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal > halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more > floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, the > extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a tremendous > amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, making it more > likely to break on impact. > > > > > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not > sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up by > steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss mast -- > it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and larger. > Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also looking at > flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar diagonals too. > > > > > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an > error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any > other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 > pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble > believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 > pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at > right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with a > few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as you > go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower sections. > > > > > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged > lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, whereas a > really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with lots of spots > to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > > > > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the > needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended > extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as > the aluminium extrusion. > > > > > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the > limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a reduced-sized > truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig on a BS36, or > more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even a radar at the > masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds for the truss -- > that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > > > > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire > mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford > that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces of > mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble at > all. > > > > > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled > by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, > well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > > > > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an > Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft > bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same > spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than half > the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet tall than > the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > > > > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say > his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and > hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting > more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > > > > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a > not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing > over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds to > the entire rig. > > > > > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my > calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is > certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > > > > > Matt > > ______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28848|28786|2012-08-29 23:34:25|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|A 26' boat has much different needs. Please remind us, what is the recommended mast height, spreader height, mast tube and displacement of a Brent Swain 26 ? I will put a line in my spreadsheet and see what it says about different pipes. At some point, as one decreases boat size, hollow metal tube is better. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kimdxx@... Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 02:27:37 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint Matt ... Many thanks for all that detail! This becomes more and more interesting. All the boats I've built in the past were launched without a rig, because I could never afford such things when they hit the water. It was always a year or so afterwards before they got a mast. For my 26-footer, the idea of using a very cheap truss mast could save it from the same fate! If the truss mast is actually lighter and stronger as well, then that's a bonus. It would be labour-intensive to build (but my labour costs me nothing), and there would be a lot of welding; but the steel pipe itself is so cheap it's almost free! I assume that even basic stuff like shroud tangs, etc, could be fabricated from mild steel and simply welded on. Of course, the obvious question I'm asking myself is: Why doesn't everyone have a truss mast? Maybe a truss mast would be a turbulence generator and completely destroy laminar flow over the mainsail? Maybe gale force winds would have a lot more to work on, so the issue of windage might be serious in a storm (but would this be any worse compared to a conventional mast)? Maybe wind noise through the truss mast's lattice structure would become unbearable? Some years ago there was a big ferro boat that was moored in the Brisbane River that had a very high truss mast, and its mast looked a bit strange (if not ugly); but I suspect I thought that only because it was so unconventional. On the other hand, it would be very CHEAP!! :-) It would be easy to climb. Running electrical wires to the masthead, and maintaining them, would be simpler. There would be no more "lost halyards" inside the mast. There seem to be many advantages. Hope this discussion continues. I'll be following it with great interest! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > Kim, > > Let me spend some time going over my numbers and checking to make sure I have not missed anything obvious. I have not calculated for the combined fore-aft buckle with twist failure mode. > > How do I explain this..... take a really long 2"x10" beam, lay it flat and hang a weight from it. It will bow down and have no particular tendency to twist... that is because it is already bending in the easiest bending direction, called the minimum structural moment of area or "I" direction. Stand it on edge and constrain the ends so they cannot fall over and hang a weight in the middle. The beam is now in its stiffest bending direction. For enough weight, eventually, the beam will twist to one side in the middle and bend down more. For enough weight, the beam will attempt to turn to an easier bending direction. That is why one puts in cross bracing between floor joists in a house. > > For the truss mast I am looking at, the side to side buckle is already at the lowest structural moment of area direction (easiest bending direction), so, I am feeling that will not have a tendency to twist to an "easier" direction. However, fore-aft, from sail forces, the mast is at its maximum structural moment of area and I just have not finished considered the potential for twist yet. Round pipe masts and closed aluminium extrusions have a lot of torsional stiffness but if the cross-braces are right, then so does the truss. The my gut feeling so far is, the ratio of I's from easiest to stiffest is 50%, whereas for the aluminium sections I am comparing to, it is 35% and 36% and it is the difference in stiffness in one direction compared to the other that would drive the twist. The thing is, a triangular truss need only rotate 30 degrees to reach a minimum stiffness direction whereas an extruded section has to rotate 90 degrees. Having two lower shrouds on each side, set slightly fore and aft of the mast would also help reduce twist, if the boat is very stiff. My gut feeling right now is, it requires more energy, so, more force to buckle with twist. > > As for costing... I can get schedule 40 black iron pipe at my scrap yard for $0.35 a pound. That is less than $100 for the entire mast. The only thing that will make this at all competitive to an aluminium extrusion is if you count your time -- there is no way for me to count that for someone else. The 5.5" pipe, if bought new, will be pricey, but that might be found at a scrap yard also. Thing is, 1/2" schedule 40 pipe is pretty tough to dent. It can end up bent at a scrap yard, but you just don't buy that piece. Depending on where you are, 5.5" pipe might be more common, but at a scrap yard, it will more likely get bend. > > Right now, the design is looking like 1/2" schedule 40 pipe for the three uprights. The uprights are set with 2 toward the bow, one aft. The two at the front are 12" apart and the aft one is , set 12" aft -- it is not a symmetric truss. I have calculated for 1/2" schedule 40 pipe as horizontals at no greater that 69 cm spacing. > > The diagonals I have not worked out completely yet. I am looking at double diagonals of 3/16" round bar, idea is, tension only in one or the other, depending on how the truss is trying to twist. So in each window of each face of a truss segment, there is an X of cross braces. Like this: > > http://www.emeraldinsight.com/content_images/fig/1560140207008.png > > I worry a bit about residual loads in the diagonals from thermal expansion from welding. I am thinking taping them with a little bar and looking for a consistent tone will tell me at least if they are consistent. > > I might re-do the calculations with 1/2" pipe for single diagonals, loading them both in tension and compression as the mast tries to twist one way or the other. Like this: > > http://img.archiexpo.com/images_ae/photo-m2/glued-laminated-lattice-beams-60685-2250565.jpg > > It might be easy to create a twisted mast from residual forces after welding. > > I have also considered steel cable as double diagonals, but, I have made no calculations yet. "Standard" radio mast trusses have no horizontals, only diagonals, and then they have little horizontals welded in on the inside corner of some diagonals, to make steps. The member buckling calculations are harder for these. > > I have calculated also for 3/4" x 3/8" flat bar as horizontals to reduce windage. They should take 300 lbs foot loads without bending however, for me, at 220 pounds without a lot of extra gear, I would be careful to spread my weight around and climb slowly as I climb the mast. When I got up to to the place where I was going to work, I would put my feet on two different horizontals while working. For 1/2" round pipe, there is no danger of me bending it under any reasonable foot-loading, even standing on one foot, straining with tools. > > I have not calculated the effects of a safety line hook coming tight quickly (the climber falls on their safety line). I believe in really short safety lines, and no less than 2 of them, so I am never unhooked, and cannot fall far. My job does not require a lot of moving around while I work and I imagine it would be the same on a masthead. Construction workers need longer safety lines so they have the scope to move around and work and such a long safety line coming taught might well be a higher loading case then service loads for the horizontals of a truss. > > The only way for me to feel really good about this entire idea is to weld up one section myself and abuse it. This will test both my welding abilities and my calculations. I figure the test will cost me $50 in scrap pipe for a 20 foot long section of truss. I can set the finished piece across saw-horses and weight it down and try to twist it, and see what happens. If it works out, it would become the uppermost section of my mast and I would make the two 15' lower sections to reach the spreaders, when I was more practiced. Yes, I could make a tapered mast, but, that is more difficult to cut the pieces for welding. As it is, I am already considering jigs to cut the ends of the horizontals easily, consistently and quickly so they mate nicely to the verticals. > > I would make everything to fit the rigging I got with my fractured mast. Someone else working from scratch would have one less thing to worry about. > > There is a lot more to think about with trusses, but, just the idea of being able to erect it by one's self is attractive. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:39:40 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! > > Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf aluminium mast? > > Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? > > It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so could dramatically reduce its windage. > > Thanks! > > Kim. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared to 5.90 > > > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and compression strengths given here: > > > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, making it more likely to break on impact. > > > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar diagonals too. > > > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower sections. > > > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as the aluminium extrusion. > > > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble at all. > > > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds to the entire rig. > > > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > > > Matt > ______________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28849|28786|2012-08-30 00:35:33|Kim|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Matt ... The 26-footer has a mast length of 33'. The single spreaders are exactly half way up at 16'6". The boat's designed displacement is 6,700lbs. Brent's drawings show the mast as 3" x 4 1/2" solid sitka spruce or fir (tapering down to 3" x 3" for the top 10'). Not sure what that would weigh; but I think it would be pretty heavy. However, I was going to use an aluminium mast (mostly to save weight). (In Australia there are plenty of gum trees; but no nearby forests of either spruce or fir to plunder. :-)) There are a couple of rigging shops in town, and I was going to use whatever aluminium section they might recommend for a 3 to 4 ton 26ft steel yacht. I haven't made those inquiries yet. I'd like to keep the rig weight as low as possible. Thanks. Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > A 26' boat has much different needs. Please remind us, what is the recommended mast height, spreader height, mast tube and displacement of a Brent Swain 26 ? I will put a line in my spreadsheet and see what it says about different pipes. At some point, as one decreases boat size, hollow metal tube is better. > > Matt | 28850|28786|2012-08-30 00:48:56|Paul Wilson|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Kim, If you haven't already, have a look at the article I previously mentioned in the files section for suitable sections and check out the strength and prices on aluminum irrigation tubing and aluminum pipe. I have found aluminum extrusions surprisingly cheap in NZ......not that much more than steel. Australia might be the same. An aluminum pipe mast might actually be cheaper after adding up all the welding consumables and the extra cost of galvanizing or painting a steel mast. Type 6061 aluminum or a marine grade like 5083 withstands corrosion quite well and is relatively common. If you did use aluminum, I would just leave it bare....there is no need to paint it or clear coat it. Good luck, Paul| 28851|28786|2012-08-30 02:48:16|Kim|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Thanks Paul. Yes, I read (and saved a copy) of the "Build your own mast.pdf" file when you initially posted it some years ago, and I've just re-read it again. There's some excellent information in that. As you say, it could well be that a simple, cheap aluminium extrusion could be the way to go for the little 26-footer. I haven't done any costings on the rig yet. And, as Matt said, as boat size decreases a hollow tube becomes better. At the same time, the idea of an almost-free, lighter, stronger truss mast grabbed my imagination a bit! :-) Thanks again. Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Kim, > > If you haven't already, have a look at the article I previously > mentioned in the files section for suitable sections and check out the > strength and prices on aluminum irrigation tubing and aluminum pipe. > I have found aluminum extrusions surprisingly cheap in NZ......not that > much more than steel. Australia might be the same. An aluminum pipe > mast might actually be cheaper after adding up all the welding > consumables and the extra cost of galvanizing or painting a steel mast. > > Type 6061 aluminum or a marine grade like 5083 withstands corrosion > quite well and is relatively common. If you did use aluminum, I would > just leave it bare....there is no need to paint it or clear coat it. > > Good luck, Paul | 28852|28786|2012-08-30 11:02:31|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Kim, I am writing quite a long response here. The only solid recommendation I have for you is, I do not think a truss is the way to go for you. I do some calculations and look at some mast sections that have ballpark properties, and then look at the boats that those mast manufacturers say those sections are suitable for. It is the way I have gone in educating myself about masts for my size of boat. My goal is to give you an idea of the general specifications you might expect if you talk to a salesman / mast designer about a single spreader rig. Ultimately, Brent knows far better what people have put aloft on the 26, so, I would listen to his thumbs up or down on any option you might consider. The Sitka Spruce mast would weigh only about 56 pounds / 25 kg. I am uncertain how much weight you could stand aloft on a 6,700lbs boat. The straight compression strength of the Sitka Spruce mast lower 16.5' is about 30 tons. The side-to-side buckling compression strength of the lower 16.5 feet is only about 3,000 pounds, depending on how the mast is rounded -- less than half the rule-of-thumb compression strength = displacement. Brent knows far better what people have put aloft on the 26, so, I would listen to his thumbs up or down on any particular section you might consider. If it were me, I would do some quick double-checks too using F = pi^2 EI / (KL)^2 Euler buckling. Anyone who sells you an aluminium extrusion should be able to identify it, so you can look up the I, or they should be able to tell you the I. I would never try this, because aluminium welding is out of my league, but a 1/2" 6061-T6 schedule 40 aluminium pipe based truss mast would come in at about 50 pounds and, if the welding were done properly, would likely have very good properties. Steel is just not an option, you do not have the weight budget, the tubes either have to get smaller or thinner.... Smaller cell size to get the buckling strength, so more cross members, more weight. Thinner means, harder to weld. Aluminium would be the only option for such a light boat, but I would never attempt it. So many complications with welding aluminium, retaining strength and avoiding cracks, inspection, that I am just not ready for. In a commercial 6061-T6 mast extrusion, anyone who wants to sell you a section should be calculating a number of spreaders, and position (doing a design), and will come up with their suggestion of mast section. So that you feel you have an idea what they are talking about, I have done some quick calculations to set a yardstick to roughly judge what they are recommending. To make the Nordic standard of compression buckling = 1.5*displacement, you would be looking for an Iyy (the smaller one) of about 4 in^4 for a 16.5' spreader height single spreader mast. Most of them will recommend a lighter section and more spreaders. I am not sure I like that. Looking for compression buckling = displacement, the simple rule of thumb, then you are looking for an Iyy of about 2.7 in^4 for a 16.5' spreader height. To get an idea of the expected weight, I browsed a few examples: http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/3550-Mast.html 2.7 in^4 2.2 pounds / foot 73 pounds The list of recommended boats includes a lot of 25' and 26' boats. http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/3656-MORC.html 2.9 in^4 2.17 pounds/foot About 72 pounds http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Spartan_Spars/cd35_mast.html 2.82 in^4 2.41 pounds/ foot 80 pounds http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Isomat_Spars/Isomat_Masts/NG28_mast.html 3.23 in^4 2.19 pounds/foot About 72 pounds A stiffer mast, exceeding the Nordic standard, would be: http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Spartan_Spars/cd4_mast.html Iyy = 4.45 in^4 2.87 pounds / foot 95 pounds The list of boats included Cape Dorys, some pretty solid boats. The CD27 is: http://www.capedory.org/specs/cd27.htm is 7500 pounds and 38.5' mast "The Cape Dory 27 is a diesel-powered auxiliary sloop capable of sailing most anywhere. She is a rugged yacht with surprising speed and predictable handling. The 27 is an uncomplicated yacht universally admired by knowledgeable sailors." I like when I read things that remind me of my boat. It suggests I am not going totally wrong. FYI, something in the same league of buckling strength of the Sitka Spruce would be: http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/3049-mast.html at 1.6 pounds / foot = 52.8 pounds. A triple spreader rig might be suggested by a mast designer to get the buckling strength up over about 5 tons, theoretically. Funny that that weight is so similar to the wood's weight. The wood however is far more tough in the sense that if something blunt swings into the a wood or aluminium mast and strikes it, the wood mast is likely to fair better. Anything with triple spreaders just looks delicate to me. And it is only saving you about 42 pounds over the Cape Dory mast, 20 pounds on a single spreader mast. With all the extra wire, fittings and tangs on a triple spreader, I would be surprised if it did not come to another 10 pounds anyway, so maybe only 10 pounds saved. I think one has to be a real close to the edge racer to be interested in saving 10 pounds on the mast of a 26 footer. So, between 75 and 100 pounds is probably expected with 75 pounds being around the rule of thumb standard, 90 pounds around the Nordic standard. Less than 70 pounds and it is probably a lighter mast, that may still be quite serviceable, probably with more spreaders, even if not exactly the highest standards of tough mast design. Note, this is all for closed section masts, not in-mast furling masts, those are different. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kimdxx@... Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 04:35:30 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint Matt ... The 26-footer has a mast length of 33'. The single spreaders are exactly half way up at 16'6". The boat's designed displacement is 6,700lbs. Brent's drawings show the mast as 3" x 4 1/2" solid sitka spruce or fir (tapering down to 3" x 3" for the top 10'). Not sure what that would weigh; but I think it would be pretty heavy. However, I was going to use an aluminium mast (mostly to save weight). (In Australia there are plenty of gum trees; but no nearby forests of either spruce or fir to plunder. :-)) There are a couple of rigging shops in town, and I was going to use whatever aluminium section they might recommend for a 3 to 4 ton 26ft steel yacht. I haven't made those inquiries yet. I'd like to keep the rig weight as low as possible. Thanks. Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > A 26' boat has much different needs. Please remind us, what is the recommended mast height, spreader height, mast tube and displacement of a Brent Swain 26 ? I will put a line in my spreadsheet and see what it says about different pipes. At some point, as one decreases boat size, hollow metal tube is better. > > Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28853|28786|2012-08-30 11:38:47|haidan|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|last winter I got to go out on this boat that some friends of mine out east, it was a 52 foot schooner with two A-frame masts. Basically they were built out of 4 20' sections of 3" sch 40 aluminium pipe. The only welding that need to be done was in the cross frames, which was braced across 20' feet up at the joint in the pipes, all sleeved in with smaller pipe and bolted, same at the mast head. The A-frame landed right on the bulwarks putting the compression there and there was a jackstay that came straight down pulling up on the keel. This boat had two "masts" and ran two jibs on roller furlers but there's no reason why one couldn't rig up a boom and have a sloop rig with both the main and jib on furlers. It's a real simple rig, has almost no flex in it and you could build it with just a few hours of welding time. http://samphire.ca/the-boat/| 28854|28786|2012-08-30 11:45:17|haidan|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|It's an Ian Nicholson rig design. And it had the added plus of making this schooner look enough like a commercial fishing boat with it's stabilizer poles up that we were able to tie up for free among the commercial fishing docks all down the east coast for free, people didn't really know what to make of the rig. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > last winter I got to go out on this boat that some friends of mine out east, it was a 52 foot schooner with two A-frame masts. Basically they were built out of 4 20' sections of 3" sch 40 aluminium pipe. The only welding that need to be done was in the cross frames, which was braced across 20' feet up at the joint in the pipes, all sleeved in with smaller pipe and bolted, same at the mast head. The A-frame landed right on the bulwarks putting the compression there and there was a jackstay that came straight down pulling up on the keel. This boat had two "masts" and ran two jibs on roller furlers but there's no reason why one couldn't rig up a boom and have a sloop rig with both the main and jib on furlers. It's a real simple rig, has almost no flex in it and you could build it with just a few hours of welding time. > > http://samphire.ca/the-boat/ > | 28855|28786|2012-08-30 11:51:30|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Image 23 of 24 makes it look particularly commercial. The low coach roof and high pilot house do it. Not many sailboats could be so stealth. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: haidan@... Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:45:13 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint It's an Ian Nicholson rig design. And it had the added plus of making this schooner look enough like a commercial fishing boat with it's stabilizer poles up that we were able to tie up for free among the commercial fishing docks all down the east coast for free, people didn't really know what to make of the rig. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > last winter I got to go out on this boat that some friends of mine out east, it was a 52 foot schooner with two A-frame masts. Basically they were built out of 4 20' sections of 3" sch 40 aluminium pipe. The only welding that need to be done was in the cross frames, which was braced across 20' feet up at the joint in the pipes, all sleeved in with smaller pipe and bolted, same at the mast head. The A-frame landed right on the bulwarks putting the compression there and there was a jackstay that came straight down pulling up on the keel. This boat had two "masts" and ran two jibs on roller furlers but there's no reason why one couldn't rig up a boom and have a sloop rig with both the main and jib on furlers. It's a real simple rig, has almost no flex in it and you could build it with just a few hours of welding time. > > http://samphire.ca/the-boat/ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28856|28786|2012-08-30 15:32:04|Paul Wilson|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|There are several multihulls with A-Frame rigs.....perhaps with the wide base it makes a lot of sense. The new Rainbow Warrior also has an A-Frame rig. Click the links: http://www.damsl.com On 31/08/2012 3:45 a.m., haidan wrote: > > It's an Ian Nicholson rig design. And it had the added plus of making > this schooner look enough like a commercial fishing boat with it's > stabilizer poles up that we were able to tie up for free among the > commercial fishing docks all down the east coast for free, people > didn't really know what to make of the rig. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "haidan" wrote: > > > > last winter I got to go out on this boat that some friends of mine > out east, it was a 52 foot schooner with two A-frame masts. Basically > they were built out of 4 20' sections of 3" sch 40 aluminium pipe. The > only welding that need to be done was in the cross frames, which was > braced across 20' feet up at the joint in the pipes, all sleeved in > with smaller pipe and bolted, same at the mast head. The A-frame > landed right on the bulwarks putting the compression there and there > was a jackstay that came straight down pulling up on the keel. This > boat had two "masts" and ran two jibs on roller furlers but there's no > reason why one couldn't rig up a boom and have a sloop rig with both > the main and jib on furlers. It's a real simple rig, has almost no > flex in it and you could build it with just a few hours of welding time. > > > > http://samphire.ca/the-boat/ > > > > | 28857|28857|2012-08-30 15:58:52|venturehullscanadaincorporated|Brian Swain|Mark Steele / Victoria 250-384-3396 I have an autocad of a new sloop hull I've been developing. I would like you to take a look at it. venturehullscanadaincorporated@...| 28858|28858|2012-08-30 16:05:58|brentswain38|Keel leading edges|I just saw an Evan built boat on the beach yesterday. It had hit a rock and punched a hole in the bottom leading edge of the keel. As Evan often insists on doing, it had only sch 40 pipe for the leading edge of the keel, a half pipe. Had it been done with something with a half inch wall thickness, or solid shaft, the collision with a rock would have done absolutely no damage. Sch 40 pipe is simply not strong enough for the leading edge of a keel, even if it is filled with molten lead.| 28859|28786|2012-08-30 16:13:32|brentswain38|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Back in the 70's in Vancouver, a lot of boat builders were having aluminium tube squashed to an oval for masts; far cheaper than buying extrusions. A friend had 80 ft of bulwark pipe squashed in a brake press, for around $60 total. I used to work on a 600 ton brake press, so I a can assure you it's no more than 20 minutes work. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > " I have often wondered > > about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval > > between two large rollers. The mind wanders....." > > I have thought of this too... I would think it would only work with steel. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 07:34:07 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There was a boat in the Bay of Islands in NZ with a truss mast. I am > > not there otherwise I would take a closer look for you. I would think > > that windage/noise would be the main disadvantage. Resale value as well > > if you worry about such things. > > > > FYI, I posted a file awhile ago called "Build your own mast" in the > > files sections. It talks about making you own mast from standard > > aluminum pipe. You might find it interesting. I have often wondered > > about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval > > between two large rollers. The mind wanders..... > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28860|28857|2012-08-30 16:17:05|brentswain38|Re: Brian Swain|E-mail it to me and I will take a look. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "venturehullscanadaincorporated" wrote: > > Mark Steele / Victoria 250-384-3396 > I have an autocad of a new sloop hull I've been developing. > I would like you to take a look at it. > venturehullscanadaincorporated@... > | 28861|28786|2012-08-30 16:35:25|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|So, do you know of anyone who would do that now ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:13:29 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint Back in the 70's in Vancouver, a lot of boat builders were having aluminium tube squashed to an oval for masts; far cheaper than buying extrusions. A friend had 80 ft of bulwark pipe squashed in a brake press, for around $60 total. I used to work on a 600 ton brake press, so I a can assure you it's no more than 20 minutes work. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > " I have often wondered > > about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval > > between two large rollers. The mind wanders....." > > I have thought of this too... I would think it would only work with steel. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 07:34:07 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There was a boat in the Bay of Islands in NZ with a truss mast. I am > > not there otherwise I would take a closer look for you. I would think > > that windage/noise would be the main disadvantage. Resale value as well > > if you worry about such things. > > > > FYI, I posted a file awhile ago called "Build your own mast" in the > > files sections. It talks about making you own mast from standard > > aluminum pipe. You might find it interesting. I have often wondered > > about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval > > between two large rollers. The mind wanders..... > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28862|28786|2012-08-30 16:52:56|Mark Hamill|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Matt: I googled Brake press in BC and got a number of listing including this for all of Canada http://www.ctidirectory.com/search/product_company_list.cfm?prod_code=8740379 MarkH| 28863|28786|2012-08-30 21:55:26|wild_explorer|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|I really like its "commercial" look. I did not consider A-frame mast before (I just new it exist}. Is there more information how they calculated, built the masts and balanced the rig? I could not find much information about A-frame rig online. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > It's an Ian Nicholson rig design. And it had the added plus of making this schooner look enough like a commercial fishing boat with it's stabilizer poles up that we were able to tie up for free among the commercial fishing docks all down the east coast for free, people didn't really know what to make of the rig. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > > > last winter I got to go out on this boat that some friends of mine out east, it was a 52 foot schooner with two A-frame masts. Basically they were built out of 4 20' sections of 3" sch 40 aluminium pipe. The only welding that need to be done was in the cross frames, which was braced across 20' feet up at the joint in the pipes, all sleeved in with smaller pipe and bolted, same at the mast head. The A-frame landed right on the bulwarks putting the compression there and there was a jackstay that came straight down pulling up on the keel. This boat had two "masts" and ran two jibs on roller furlers but there's no reason why one couldn't rig up a boom and have a sloop rig with both the main and jib on furlers. It's a real simple rig, has almost no flex in it and you could build it with just a few hours of welding time. > > > > http://samphire.ca/the-boat/ > > > | 28864|28786|2012-08-31 01:12:16|Kim|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Hi Matt ... Thanks so much for your very comprehensive message. I really appreciate the research you've done on this! It looks like a cheap truss mast is not to be for the 26-footer. There would be no point if it didn't have weight, strength and cost advantages. Just having to use aluminium materials for it would destroy any cost advantage it might have had for me. However, this thread has certainly armed me with the technical knowledge I'll need when I do start shopping for a mast for my boat, and that's going to be an enormous help. Many thanks again! Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > Kim, > > I am writing quite a long response here. The only solid recommendation I have for you is, I do not think a truss is the way to go for you. I do some calculations and look at some mast sections that have ballpark properties, and then look at the boats that those mast manufacturers say those sections are suitable for. It is the way I have gone in educating myself about masts for my size of boat. My goal is to give you an idea of the general specifications you might expect if you talk to a salesman / mast designer about a single spreader rig. Ultimately, Brent knows far better what people have put aloft on the 26, so, I would > listen to his thumbs up or down on any option you might > consider. > > The Sitka Spruce mast would weigh only about 56 pounds / 25 kg. I am uncertain how much weight you could stand aloft on a 6,700lbs boat. The straight compression strength of the Sitka Spruce mast lower 16.5' is about 30 tons. The side-to-side buckling compression strength of the lower 16.5 feet is only about 3,000 pounds, depending on how the mast is rounded -- less than half the rule-of-thumb compression strength = displacement. Brent knows far better what people have put aloft on the 26, so, I would listen to his thumbs up or down on any particular section you might consider. If it were me, I would do some quick double-checks too using F = pi^2 EI / (KL)^2 Euler buckling. Anyone who sells you an aluminium extrusion should be able to identify it, so you can look up the I, or they should be able to tell you the I. > > I would never try this, because aluminium welding is out of my league, but a 1/2" 6061-T6 schedule 40 aluminium pipe based truss mast would come in at about 50 pounds and, if the welding were done properly, would likely have very good properties. Steel is just not an option, you do not have the weight budget, the tubes either have to get smaller or thinner.... Smaller cell size to get the buckling strength, so more cross members, more weight. Thinner means, harder to weld. Aluminium would be the only option for such a light boat, but I would never attempt it. So many complications with welding aluminium, retaining strength and avoiding cracks, inspection, that I am just not ready for. > > In a commercial 6061-T6 mast extrusion, anyone who wants to sell you a section should be calculating a number of > spreaders, and position (doing a design), and will come up with their suggestion of > mast section. So that you feel you have an idea what they are talking about, I have done some quick calculations to set a yardstick to roughly judge what they are recommending. To make the Nordic standard of compression buckling = 1.5*displacement, you would be looking for an Iyy (the smaller one) of about 4 in^4 for a 16.5' spreader height single spreader mast. Most of them will recommend a lighter section and more spreaders. I am not sure I like that. Looking for compression buckling = displacement, the simple rule of thumb, then you are looking for an Iyy of about 2.7 in^4 for a 16.5' spreader height. To get an idea of the expected weight, I browsed a few examples: > > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/3550-Mast.html > 2.7 in^4 > 2.2 pounds / foot > 73 pounds > The list of recommended boats includes a lot of 25' and 26' boats. > > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/3656-MORC.html > 2.9 in^4 > 2.17 pounds/foot > About 72 pounds > > > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Spartan_Spars/cd35_mast.html > 2.82 in^4 > 2.41 pounds/ foot > 80 pounds > > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Isomat_Spars/Isomat_Masts/NG28_mast.html > 3.23 in^4 > 2.19 pounds/foot > About 72 pounds > > A stiffer mast, exceeding the Nordic standard, would be: > > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Spartan_Spars/cd4_mast.html > Iyy = 4.45 in^4 > 2.87 pounds / foot > 95 pounds > The list of boats included Cape Dorys, some pretty solid boats. The CD27 is: > > http://www.capedory.org/specs/cd27.htm > > is 7500 pounds and 38.5' mast "The Cape Dory 27 is a diesel-powered auxiliary sloop capable of sailing > most anywhere. She is a rugged yacht with surprising speed and predictable > handling. The 27 is an uncomplicated yacht universally admired by knowledgeable > sailors." I like when I read things that remind me of my boat. It suggests I am not going totally wrong. > > > FYI, something in the same league of buckling strength of the Sitka Spruce would be: > > http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/3049-mast.html > > at 1.6 pounds / foot = 52.8 pounds. A triple spreader rig might be suggested by a mast designer to get the buckling strength up over about 5 tons, theoretically. Funny that that weight is so similar to the wood's weight. The wood however is far more tough in the sense that if something blunt swings into the a wood or aluminium mast and strikes it, the wood mast is likely to fair better. Anything with triple spreaders just looks delicate to me. And it is only saving you about 42 pounds over the Cape Dory mast, 20 pounds on a single spreader mast. With all the extra wire, fittings and tangs on a triple spreader, I would be surprised if it did not come to another 10 pounds anyway, so maybe only 10 pounds saved. I think one has to be a real close to the edge racer to be interested in saving 10 pounds on the mast of a 26 footer. > > So, between 75 and 100 pounds is probably expected with 75 pounds being around the rule of thumb standard, 90 pounds around the Nordic standard. Less than 70 pounds and it is probably a lighter mast, that may still be quite serviceable, probably with more spreaders, even if not exactly the highest standards of tough mast design. > > Note, this is all for closed section masts, not in-mast furling masts, those are different. > > > Matt | 28865|28786|2012-08-31 11:21:57|haidan|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Well my friends weren't the people who built the boat, they bought it like that. The guy who had it built owned a fishboat building company in New Brunswick and had it built for him at the yard. I'd look into some of Ian Nicholson's books I'm sure it's in one of his books. In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I really like its "commercial" look. I did not consider A-frame mast before (I just new it exist}. Is there more information how they calculated, built the masts and balanced the rig? > > I could not find much information about A-frame rig online. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > > > It's an Ian Nicholson rig design. And it had the added plus of making this schooner look enough like a commercial fishing boat with it's stabilizer poles up that we were able to tie up for free among the commercial fishing docks all down the east coast for free, people didn't really know what to make of the rig. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > > > > > last winter I got to go out on this boat that some friends of mine out east, it was a 52 foot schooner with two A-frame masts. Basically they were built out of 4 20' sections of 3" sch 40 aluminium pipe. The only welding that need to be done was in the cross frames, which was braced across 20' feet up at the joint in the pipes, all sleeved in with smaller pipe and bolted, same at the mast head. The A-frame landed right on the bulwarks putting the compression there and there was a jackstay that came straight down pulling up on the keel. This boat had two "masts" and ran two jibs on roller furlers but there's no reason why one couldn't rig up a boom and have a sloop rig with both the main and jib on furlers. It's a real simple rig, has almost no flex in it and you could build it with just a few hours of welding time. > > > > > > http://samphire.ca/the-boat/ > > > > > > | 28866|28786|2012-08-31 12:04:08|wild_explorer|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Sloop configuration like this? http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/attachments/general-sailing-discussion/24524d1212507189-new-concept-sailing-rigs-bi-pod-aerorig-combo-procyon-tall-rig-jpg Looks nice... This type of A-frame mast would be easy to mount on bulwark of BrentBoat. Seems like very durable configuration. There are some Pros/Cons about this rig, but looks pretty easy to make, lower/raise it... P.S. I like "climbing ladder" (third leg of A-frame mast) on your friend's boat, but it eliminates possibility of a boom for the mast. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: >This boat had two "masts" and ran two jibs on roller furlers but there's no reason why one couldn't rig up a boom and have a sloop rig with both the main and jib on furlers. | 28867|28786|2012-08-31 17:00:31|Mark Steele|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Actually , a sloop with a unique shaped hull. A hull with chines that angle inwards , and more or less a flat bottom . The advantage being , as roll is induced , an assymetry occurs , making the waterline assume the shape of a wing. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: wild_explorer Sent: 08/31/12 09:04 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28868|28786|2012-08-31 17:38:56|Aaron|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Is there a drawing we can look at? ________________________________ From: Mark Steele To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint   Actually , a sloop with a unique shaped hull. A hull with chines that angle inwards , and more or less a flat bottom . The advantage being , as roll is induced , an assymetry occurs , making the waterline assume the shape of a wing. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: wild_explorer Sent: 08/31/12 09:04 AM To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28869|28786|2012-08-31 19:36:58|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Matt, You are aware that square and rectangular steel tubes all start out as round and then are rolled to shape? That's why those shapes are the most expensive, lots of operations. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Matt Malone Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint " I have often wondered about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval between two large rollers. The mind wanders....." I have thought of this too... I would think it would only work with steel. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 07:34:07 +1200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint There was a boat in the Bay of Islands in NZ with a truss mast. I am not there otherwise I would take a closer look for you. I would think that windage/noise would be the main disadvantage. Resale value as well if you worry about such things. FYI, I posted a file awhile ago called "Build your own mast" in the files sections. It talks about making you own mast from standard aluminum pipe. You might find it interesting. I have often wondered about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval between two large rollers. The mind wanders..... Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28870|28786|2012-09-01 00:11:57|wild_explorer|Hull's concept (was Re: Mast weight and mast paint)|Sounds like Rounded Vee bottom kayak, hard-chine kayak or something like Baidarka.... Do you think such hull shape could be easily done by Origami construction? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Steele" wrote: > > Actually , a sloop with a unique shaped hull. > A hull with chines that angle inwards , and more or less a flat bottom . > The advantage being , as roll is induced , an assymetry occurs , making the waterline assume the shape > of a wing. > Mark | 28871|28786|2012-09-01 09:33:43|mauro gonzaga|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Shaped square or rectangular tubes are usually made out from plate strip, bent and longitudinal welded by ERW (electric resistance welding). Much cheaper than seamless hot formed pipes. Mauro ________________________________ From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 1:38 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint   Matt, You are aware that square and rectangular steel tubes all start out as round and then are rolled to shape? That's why those shapes are the most expensive, lots of operations. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Matt Malone Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint " I have often wondered about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval between two large rollers. The mind wanders....." I have thought of this too... I would think it would only work with steel. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 07:34:07 +1200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint There was a boat in the Bay of Islands in NZ with a truss mast. I am not there otherwise I would take a closer look for you. I would think that windage/noise would be the main disadvantage. Resale value as well if you worry about such things. FYI, I posted a file awhile ago called "Build your own mast" in the files sections. It talks about making you own mast from standard aluminum pipe. You might find it interesting. I have often wondered about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval between two large rollers. The mind wanders..... Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28872|28786|2012-09-01 18:21:25|brentswain38|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|It;s extremely hard to keep paint on the corners of steel square tubing. Squashing a pipe to an oval works well, on both steel and aluminium. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Shaped square or rectangular tubes are usually made out from plate strip, bent and longitudinal welded by ERW (electric resistance welding). Much cheaper than seamless hot formed pipes. > Mauro > > > > ________________________________ > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 1:38 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > >   > Matt, > You are aware that square and rectangular steel tubes all start out as round > and then are rolled to shape? That's why those shapes are the most > expensive, lots of operations. > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Malone > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:38 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > " I have often wondered > > about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval > > between two large rollers. The mind wanders....." > > I have thought of this too... I would think it would only work with steel. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 07:34:07 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > There was a boat in the Bay of Islands in NZ with a truss mast. I am > > not there otherwise I would take a closer look for you. I would think > > that windage/noise would be the main disadvantage. Resale value as well > > if you worry about such things. > > FYI, I posted a file awhile ago called "Build your own mast" in the > > files sections. It talks about making you own mast from standard > > aluminum pipe. You might find it interesting. I have often wondered > > about taking a standard alloy pipe and having it squashed into an oval > > between two large rollers. The mind wanders..... > > Cheers, Paul > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28873|28786|2012-09-01 18:55:27|Paul Wilson|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Have you ever heard of anyone squashing a large aluminum pipe themselves? Two hefty rollers squeezed in a jig using two hydraulic rams might work if you have a way to pull the pipe through without letting it twist. Just wondering..... Paul On 2/09/2012 10:21 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > It;s extremely hard to keep paint on the corners of steel square > tubing. Squashing a pipe to an oval works well, on both steel and > aluminium. > | 28874|28786|2012-09-04 15:39:38|brentswain38|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|I've never heard of it. Possibly because having it done in a brake press is so cheap. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Have you ever heard of anyone squashing a large aluminum pipe > themselves? Two hefty rollers squeezed in a jig using two hydraulic > rams might work if you have a way to pull the pipe through without > letting it twist. > > Just wondering..... > > Paul > > On 2/09/2012 10:21 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > It;s extremely hard to keep paint on the corners of steel square > > tubing. Squashing a pipe to an oval works well, on both steel and > > aluminium. > > > | 28875|28875|2012-09-04 15:46:53|brentswain38|Epoy errosion|I just saw a boat that a friend built, launched, motored to the dock and never left the dock, in decades. The epoxy finish was literally worn thru. Epoxy chaulks in UV, and the chaulked part simply erodes away, leaving more to chalk and erode away,till there is none left. That is why, while epoxy is one of the best protections for steel, it should never be used as a finish coat. UV eats it.| 28876|28876|2012-09-04 16:27:55|mauro gonzaga|Framing|Would somebody clarify? Origami hull is virtually exempt from framing. What about fuel and water tanks? All in the twin keels? Don't you weld floors to obtain compartments for storage of liquids and solids and to base the cabin floor? Mauro [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28877|28875|2012-09-04 18:55:28|Matt Malone|Re: Epoy errosion|What do you recommend as a finish coat ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 19:46:52 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Epoy errosion I just saw a boat that a friend built, launched, motored to the dock and never left the dock, in decades. The epoxy finish was literally worn thru. Epoxy chaulks in UV, and the chaulked part simply erodes away, leaving more to chalk and erode away,till there is none left. That is why, while epoxy is one of the best protections for steel, it should never be used as a finish coat. UV eats it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28878|28875|2012-09-05 00:55:54|Aaron|Boarding in a storm|Skip the girls watch the guy trying to board the saiboat   http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/blog/34726/bizarre+speedboat+accident+at+lake+of+the+ozarks+caught+on+videotape/ ________________________________   Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: * New Members 6 Visit Your Group To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28879|28875|2012-09-05 09:43:24|Aaron|Re: Boarding in a storm|This is the correct utube link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6gMDlTTN6A&feature=player_embedded ________________________________ From: Aaron To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:55 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm   Skip the girls watch the guy trying to board the saiboat   http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/blog/34726/bizarre+speedboat+accident+at+lake+of+the+ozarks+caught+on+videotape/ ________________________________   Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: * New Members 6 Visit Your Group To Post a message, send it to:   mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28880|28875|2012-09-05 11:26:28|martin demers|Re: Boarding in a storm|dont try that if you are not strong enough to pull yourself with your arms! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: akenai@... Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 06:43:22 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm This is the correct utube link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6gMDlTTN6A&feature=player_embedded ________________________________ From: Aaron To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:55 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm Skip the girls watch the guy trying to board the saiboat http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/blog/34726/bizarre+speedboat+accident+at+lake+of+the+ozarks+caught+on+videotape/ ________________________________ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: * New Members 6 Visit Your Group To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest � Unsubscribe � Terms of Use . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28881|28875|2012-09-05 12:06:31|Matt Malone|Re: Boarding in a storm|http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M6gMDlTTN6A Freeboard never looks so gigantic until you have failed to climb it once and you find yourself back in the water. Fatigue and cold water take effect quickly. Been there. While that is enough of a storm to say it is not calm water, that is not much of a storm, should one consider all the other ways in which one might end up in the water and in need of reboarding. Freeboard never looks so gigantic until you have failed to climb it once and you find yourself back in the water. Fatigue and cold water take effect quickly. Been there. We need a fool-proof first time effective reboarding method. And we are not all in Olympic rings athlete condition, and may be injured before entering the water or as we attempt to climb out, so, consider the gear carefully. Safety lines and attaching to keep us in, proper life jackets (like they had), NOT personal floatation devices (PFDs) incase you get thrown out, perhaps injured. And for a boat like this, and for orgamis in general, one might consider welding even a couple of steps or foot-holds to the side of it, or having some form of from-the-water-deployable reboarding device.... a rope one can pull hard on to deploy a ladder, or something. I would want to give careful thought to slipping, entangling and the device becoming more of a hazard than a help. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 11:26:26 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > dont try that if you are not strong enough to pull yourself with your arms! > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: akenai@... > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 06:43:22 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28882|28875|2012-09-05 12:23:24|martin demers|Re: Boarding in a storm|I always tought ladders were mandatory on boats. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: m_j_malone@... Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 12:06:30 -0400 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M6gMDlTTN6A Freeboard never looks so gigantic until you have failed to climb it once and you find yourself back in the water. Fatigue and cold water take effect quickly. Been there. While that is enough of a storm to say it is not calm water, that is not much of a storm, should one consider all the other ways in which one might end up in the water and in need of reboarding. Freeboard never looks so gigantic until you have failed to climb it once and you find yourself back in the water. Fatigue and cold water take effect quickly. Been there. We need a fool-proof first time effective reboarding method. And we are not all in Olympic rings athlete condition, and may be injured before entering the water or as we attempt to climb out, so, consider the gear carefully. Safety lines and attaching to keep us in, proper life jackets (like they had), NOT personal floatation devices (PFDs) incase you get thrown out, perhaps injured. And for a boat like this, and for orgamis in general, one might consider welding even a couple of steps or foot-holds to the side of it, or having some form of from-the-water-deployable reboarding device.... a rope one can pull hard on to deploy a ladder, or something. I would want to give careful thought to slipping, entangling and the device becoming more of a hazard than a help. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 11:26:26 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > dont try that if you are not strong enough to pull yourself with your arms! > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: akenai@... > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 06:43:22 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28883|28875|2012-09-05 12:42:56|Matt Malone|Re: Boarding in a storm|A reboarding device is, however, on nearly all boats they are deployable, often stored in a locker until someone puts in it place. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 12:23:22 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > I always tought ladders were mandatory on boats. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 12:06:30 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M6gMDlTTN6A > > > > Freeboard never looks so gigantic until you have failed to climb it once and you find yourself back in the water. Fatigue and cold water take effect quickly. Been there. > > > > While that is enough of a storm to say it is not calm water, that is not much of a storm, should one consider all the other ways in which one might end up in the water and in need of reboarding. Freeboard never looks so gigantic until you have failed to climb it once and you find yourself back in the water. Fatigue and cold water take effect quickly. Been there. We need a fool-proof first time effective reboarding method. And we are not all in Olympic rings athlete condition, and may be injured before entering the water or as we attempt to climb out, so, consider the gear carefully. Safety lines and attaching to keep us in, proper life jackets (like they had), NOT personal floatation devices (PFDs) incase you get thrown out, perhaps injured. > > > > And for a boat like this, and for orgamis in general, one might consider welding even a couple of steps or foot-holds to the side of it, or having some form of from-the-water-deployable reboarding device.... a rope one can pull hard on to deploy a ladder, or something. I would want to give careful thought to slipping, entangling and the device becoming more of a hazard than a help. > > > > Matt > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 11:26:26 -0400 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > > > > dont try that if you are not strong enough to pull yourself with your arms! > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: akenai@... > > > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 06:43:22 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28884|28875|2012-09-05 15:44:07|Paul Wilson|Re: Boarding in a storm|Most of the comments below the video are incredibly stupid so sitting safely behind my computer I will now add mine :) I had to board my boat in similar conditions in Hawaii a few times. Watching the video, all I could think of was a dis-located a shoulder. I think he was trying to use the porthole on the side of the hull as a step. The life jackets were too cumbersome and it is a mistake to try to board from the ends of the boat where there is too much motion. It is better to roll on to the side deck under the handrails rather than try to climb over them in those conditions. If you do it from the side, you can time the roll and then when you leap from the dinghy you almost get scooped on board. I know of overweight people with no upper body strength who have boarded boats this way. If you do it right, you don't even need to use your arms. I think he had netting or a lower lifeline preventing this so it is good to have a way to quickly cut or release the lower line. Pitcairn is notorious for having a poor anchorage. Few people go there for that reason but since it is so remote and such an effort to get there some people tend to push their luck in order to land. I am guessing, of course, but I don't think it was a storm. More likely they were caught when the trade winds got stronger in the afternoon. Strong trade winds of over 20 or 25 knots can easily make for a 3 or 4 meter swell when there is no surrounding reef. I think there is only one place to land a dinghy on Pitcairn so going to the lee of the island may not have been an option. My friends went there and also to Easter Island which has a similar situation. There were strong trade winds blowing at the time so only one went ashore at a time while the other sailed back and forth offshore and waited their turn. The person ashore normally carried a hand held radio so the two could communicate if it really deteriorates. The person going ashore went knowing they may need to wait a few days (or longer) to swap over. It kind of sucks but in those conditions the boat should never have been left unattended. Interesting video. Thanks. Paul On 6/09/2012 4:42 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > A reboarding device is, however, on nearly all boats they are > deployable, often stored in a locker until someone puts in it place. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mdemers2005@... > > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 12:23:22 -0400 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > > I always tought ladders were mandatory on boats. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: m_j_malone@... > > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 12:06:30 -0400 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M6gMDlTTN6A > > > > > > > > Freeboard never looks so gigantic until you have failed to climb it > once and you find yourself back in the water. Fatigue and cold water > take effect quickly. Been there. > > > > > > > > While that is enough of a storm to say it is not calm water, that is > not much of a storm, should one consider all the other ways in which > one might end up in the water and in need of reboarding. Freeboard > never looks so gigantic until you have failed to climb it once and you > find yourself back in the water. Fatigue and cold water take effect > quickly. Been there. We need a fool-proof first time effective > reboarding method. And we are not all in Olympic rings athlete > condition, and may be injured before entering the water or as we > attempt to climb out, so, consider the gear carefully. Safety lines > and attaching to keep us in, proper life jackets (like they had), NOT > personal floatation devices (PFDs) incase you get thrown out, perhaps > injured. > > > > > > > > And for a boat like this, and for orgamis in general, one might > consider welding even a couple of steps or foot-holds to the side of > it, or having some form of from-the-water-deployable reboarding > device.... a rope one can pull hard on to deploy a ladder, or > something. I would want to give careful thought to slipping, > entangling and the device becoming more of a hazard than a help. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 11:26:26 -0400 > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > > > > > > > > dont try that if you are not strong enough to pull yourself with > your arms! > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: akenai@... > > > > > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 06:43:22 -0700 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 28885|28876|2012-09-05 16:20:16|brentswain38|Re: Framing|Longitudinally framed would be a beter way to descibe them. Running structural framing in the direction of the curve, rather that across it, makes them far more structurally effective, just as transverse cabin tops beams , by running along the curve are far more effetctve than running them longitudinaly ( altho I did see one builder who was so dense, that he ran his deck stiffeners across the curve, then comlplained that the cabin top was not a stiff as he wished it would be). I turned the area between the twin keels into a water tank, by putting a 4x8 ft lid on it, fully welded . This lid becomes, in effect, a fully welded longitudinal bulkhead, altho earlier boats, which didn't have this, had no problems, structurally, in over 30 years , sometimes in extreme conditions.I weld in a fuel tank behind this, as well as using the top of the twin keels as tankage, sometimes. On the single keel, the back of the keel, behind the ballast, becomes a huge fuel tank. All the chines, plus the centreline and hull deck joints are , in effect, fully welded longitudinal steel bulkheads, structurally, as is the keel and skeg on a single keeler. The twin keels , being in the centre of the bottom plate, do need heavy angles, running from the chine to the edge of the watertank, well tied into both, and well tied into the keels, for structural rigidity. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Would somebody clarify? Origami hull is virtually exempt from framing. What about fuel and water tanks? All in the twin keels? Don't you weld floors to obtain compartments for storage of liquids and solids and to base the cabin floor? > Mauro > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28886|28875|2012-09-05 16:22:57|brentswain38|Re: Epoy errosion|I use oil based enamel, altho Urethane is tougher, but harder to recoat or touch up. Both should be applied while the epoxy is still wet, for the best bond. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > What do you recommend as a finish coat ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 19:46:52 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Epoy errosion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just saw a boat that a friend built, launched, motored to the dock and never left the dock, in decades. The epoxy finish was literally worn thru. Epoxy chaulks in UV, and the chaulked part simply erodes away, leaving more to chalk and erode away,till there is none left. That is why, while epoxy is one of the best protections for steel, it should never be used as a finish coat. UV eats it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28887|28875|2012-09-05 16:35:28|brentswain38|Re: Boarding in a storm|In Canada, a reboarding device is mandatory , a good idea anytime. Around 7 people a year are lost overboard , mostly from boats tied to a dock, with alcohol involved. They are starting to put them on docks as well. A simpler solution on docks is to nail a piece of old jib sheet in a loop,low enough to get a foot in, every 50 feet or so. That would be super cheap, and only take a few minutes to do a whole marina. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > I always tought ladders were mandatory on boats. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 12:06:30 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M6gMDlTTN6A > > > > Freeboard never looks so gigantic until you have failed to climb it once and you find yourself back in the water. Fatigue and cold water take effect quickly. Been there. > > > > While that is enough of a storm to say it is not calm water, that is not much of a storm, should one consider all the other ways in which one might end up in the water and in need of reboarding. Freeboard never looks so gigantic until you have failed to climb it once and you find yourself back in the water. Fatigue and cold water take effect quickly. Been there. We need a fool-proof first time effective reboarding method. And we are not all in Olympic rings athlete condition, and may be injured before entering the water or as we attempt to climb out, so, consider the gear carefully. Safety lines and attaching to keep us in, proper life jackets (like they had), NOT personal floatation devices (PFDs) incase you get thrown out, perhaps injured. > > > > And for a boat like this, and for orgamis in general, one might consider welding even a couple of steps or foot-holds to the side of it, or having some form of from-the-water-deployable reboarding device.... a rope one can pull hard on to deploy a ladder, or something. I would want to give careful thought to slipping, entangling and the device becoming more of a hazard than a help. > > > > Matt > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 11:26:26 -0400 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > > > > dont try that if you are not strong enough to pull yourself with your arms! > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: akenai@... > > > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 06:43:22 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28888|28786|2012-09-06 10:28:28|rvanderes|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|http://www.yacht-mast.de/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Kim, > > Let me spend some time going over my numbers and checking to make sure I have not missed anything obvious. I have not calculated for the combined fore-aft buckle with twist failure mode. > > How do I explain this..... take a really long 2"x10" beam, lay it flat and hang a weight from it. It will bow down and have no particular tendency to twist... that is because it is already bending in the easiest bending direction, called the minimum structural moment of area or "I" direction. Stand it on edge and constrain the ends so they cannot fall over and hang a weight in the middle. The beam is now in its stiffest bending direction. For enough weight, eventually, the beam will twist to one side in the middle and bend down more. For enough weight, the beam will attempt to turn to an easier bending direction. That is why one puts in cross bracing between floor joists in a house. > > For the truss mast I am looking at, the side to side buckle is already at the lowest structural moment of area direction (easiest bending direction), so, I am feeling that will not have a tendency to twist to an "easier" direction. However, fore-aft, from sail forces, the mast is at its maximum structural moment of area and I just have not finished considered the potential for twist yet. Round pipe masts and closed aluminium extrusions have a lot of torsional stiffness but if the cross-braces are right, then so does the truss. The my gut feeling so far is, the ratio of I's from easiest to stiffest is 50%, whereas for the aluminium sections I am comparing to, it is 35% and 36% and it is the difference in stiffness in one direction compared to the other that would drive the twist. The thing is, a triangular truss need only rotate 30 degrees to reach a minimum stiffness direction whereas an extruded section has to rotate 90 degrees. Having two lower shrouds on each side, set slightly fore and aft of the mast would also help reduce twist, if the boat is very stiff. My gut feeling right now is, it requires more energy, so, more force to buckle with twist. > > As for costing... I can get schedule 40 black iron pipe at my scrap yard for $0.35 a pound. That is less than $100 for the entire mast. The only thing that will make this at all competitive to an aluminium extrusion is if you count your time -- there is no way for me to count that for someone else. The 5.5" pipe, if bought new, will be pricey, but that might be found at a scrap yard also. Thing is, 1/2" schedule 40 pipe is pretty tough to dent. It can end up bent at a scrap yard, but you just don't buy that piece. Depending on where you are, 5.5" pipe might be more common, but at a scrap yard, it will more likely get bend. > > Right now, the design is looking like 1/2" schedule 40 pipe for the three uprights. The uprights are set with 2 toward the bow, one aft. The two at the front are 12" apart and the aft one is , set 12" aft -- it is not a symmetric truss. I have calculated for 1/2" schedule 40 pipe as horizontals at no greater that 69 cm spacing. > > The diagonals I have not worked out completely yet. I am looking at double diagonals of 3/16" round bar, idea is, tension only in one or the other, depending on how the truss is trying to twist. So in each window of each face of a truss segment, there is an X of cross braces. Like this: > > http://www.emeraldinsight.com/content_images/fig/1560140207008.png > > I worry a bit about residual loads in the diagonals from thermal expansion from welding. I am thinking taping them with a little bar and looking for a consistent tone will tell me at least if they are consistent. > > I might re-do the calculations with 1/2" pipe for single diagonals, loading them both in tension and compression as the mast tries to twist one way or the other. Like this: > > http://img.archiexpo.com/images_ae/photo-m2/glued-laminated-lattice-beams-60685-2250565.jpg > > It might be easy to create a twisted mast from residual forces after welding. > > I have also considered steel cable as double diagonals, but, I have made no calculations yet. "Standard" radio mast trusses have no horizontals, only diagonals, and then they have little horizontals welded in on the inside corner of some diagonals, to make steps. The member buckling calculations are harder for these. > > I have calculated also for 3/4" x 3/8" flat bar as horizontals to reduce windage. They should take 300 lbs foot loads without bending however, for me, at 220 pounds without a lot of extra gear, I would be careful to spread my weight around and climb slowly as I climb the mast. When I got up to to the place where I was going to work, I would put my feet on two different horizontals while working. For 1/2" round pipe, there is no danger of me bending it under any reasonable foot-loading, even standing on one foot, straining with tools. > > I have not calculated the effects of a safety line hook coming tight quickly (the climber falls on their safety line). I believe in really short safety lines, and no less than 2 of them, so I am never unhooked, and cannot fall far. My job does not require a lot of moving around while I work and I imagine it would be the same on a masthead. Construction workers need longer safety lines so they have the scope to move around and work and such a long safety line coming taught might well be a higher loading case then service loads for the horizontals of a truss. > > The only way for me to feel really good about this entire idea is to weld up one section myself and abuse it. This will test both my welding abilities and my calculations. I figure the test will cost me $50 in scrap pipe for a 20 foot long section of truss. I can set the finished piece across saw-horses and weight it down and try to twist it, and see what happens. If it works out, it would become the uppermost section of my mast and I would make the two 15' lower sections to reach the spreaders, when I was more practiced. Yes, I could make a tapered mast, but, that is more difficult to cut the pieces for welding. As it is, I am already considering jigs to cut the ends of the horizontals easily, consistently and quickly so they mate nicely to the verticals. > > I would make everything to fit the rigging I got with my fractured mast. Someone else working from scratch would have one less thing to worry about. > > There is a lot more to think about with trusses, but, just the idea of being able to erect it by one's self is attractive. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:39:40 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! > > > > Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf aluminium mast? > > > > Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? > > > > It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so could dramatically reduce its windage. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Kim. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared to 5.90 > > > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and compression strengths given here: > > > > > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > > > > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > > > > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, making it more likely to break on impact. > > > > > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar diagonals too. > > > > > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower sections. > > > > > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > > > > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as the aluminium extrusion. > > > > > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > > > > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble at all. > > > > > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > > > > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > > > > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > > > > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds to the entire rig. > > > > > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > > > > > Matt > > ______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28889|28786|2012-09-06 11:22:11|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|English Translated: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.yacht-mast.de/yachttip.htm&usg=ALkJrhj6NxVzj1AYvyEoEltqiCAESMOSzw Direct Link to the Half- Translated "Boat Tips" link on the same site: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.yacht-mast.de/yachttip.htm&usg=ALkJrhj6NxVzj1AYvyEoEltqiCAESMOSzw There are a lot of good tips there. It is unfortunate that Google does not seem to translate the entire page. A few points that this lattice mast designer raises: - Almost no wind noise, no crying, no ringing through the redeemed fall (translated) I always had a problem understanding why a truss mast would have to create any more wind noise than a regular rig with all its wires, spreaders, and main mast tube. There may be some particular geometry that creates a whistling noise, a particular intersection of members, but, as a rule, there is no reason why they have to be noisier. It is also quite easy to test, make a 4' length, mount it on roof racks and drive down a road at 10 - 45 mph and listen, remembering, without breaking a sweat, a car drives faster than 98% of the weather you will ever meet. If it makes a lot of noise at higher speeds, who cares, so does a conventional rig. - Considerably less wind resistance than massive masts Comparing one 6-8" round tube to three 1" round tubes, sure. If one has a real foil mast particularly if one can rotate it for the wind direction, well, that is a different story. - Better flow of the mainsail than massive masts I can see that, for round/oval masts. There will be a flow separation point on the mast, it is unavoidable: http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/web/library/enginfo/aerothermal_dvd_only/aero/fprops/introvisc/lamtbsep.gif Remember too, rotate this diagram for your mast-head windvane to align with the flow direction, and you find that the sail on a beating course is attached somewhere around the separation point on the lower side of the cylinder. That leaves a huge turbulent separation bubble at the leading edge of the suction side of your sail -- the power part of a sail operating as a foil. A smaller cylinder (truss tube) makes this bubble smaller. - Easy retrofitting of additional equipment, because all the parts can be clamped or simply angeb�ndselt (translated) Yes - Theft protection: Your boat is equipped with a lattice mast so striking that a thief does not get far! Or the thief decides to go for the nice Beaufort next door. The author does not mention that the ladies might prefer the nice Beaufort next door. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: rvanderes@... Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 14:28:25 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint http://www.yacht-mast.de/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Kim, > > Let me spend some time going over my numbers and checking to make sure I have not missed anything obvious. I have not calculated for the combined fore-aft buckle with twist failure mode. > > How do I explain this..... take a really long 2"x10" beam, lay it flat and hang a weight from it. It will bow down and have no particular tendency to twist... that is because it is already bending in the easiest bending direction, called the minimum structural moment of area or "I" direction. Stand it on edge and constrain the ends so they cannot fall over and hang a weight in the middle. The beam is now in its stiffest bending direction. For enough weight, eventually, the beam will twist to one side in the middle and bend down more. For enough weight, the beam will attempt to turn to an easier bending direction. That is why one puts in cross bracing between floor joists in a house. > > For the truss mast I am looking at, the side to side buckle is already at the lowest structural moment of area direction (easiest bending direction), so, I am feeling that will not have a tendency to twist to an "easier" direction. However, fore-aft, from sail forces, the mast is at its maximum structural moment of area and I just have not finished considered the potential for twist yet. Round pipe masts and closed aluminium extrusions have a lot of torsional stiffness but if the cross-braces are right, then so does the truss. The my gut feeling so far is, the ratio of I's from easiest to stiffest is 50%, whereas for the aluminium sections I am comparing to, it is 35% and 36% and it is the difference in stiffness in one direction compared to the other that would drive the twist. The thing is, a triangular truss need only rotate 30 degrees to reach a minimum stiffness direction whereas an extruded section has to rotate 90 degrees. Having two lower shrouds on each side, set slightly fore and aft of the mast would also help reduce twist, if the boat is very stiff. My gut feeling right now is, it requires more energy, so, more force to buckle with twist. > > As for costing... I can get schedule 40 black iron pipe at my scrap yard for $0.35 a pound. That is less than $100 for the entire mast. The only thing that will make this at all competitive to an aluminium extrusion is if you count your time -- there is no way for me to count that for someone else. The 5.5" pipe, if bought new, will be pricey, but that might be found at a scrap yard also. Thing is, 1/2" schedule 40 pipe is pretty tough to dent. It can end up bent at a scrap yard, but you just don't buy that piece. Depending on where you are, 5.5" pipe might be more common, but at a scrap yard, it will more likely get bend. > > Right now, the design is looking like 1/2" schedule 40 pipe for the three uprights. The uprights are set with 2 toward the bow, one aft. The two at the front are 12" apart and the aft one is , set 12" aft -- it is not a symmetric truss. I have calculated for 1/2" schedule 40 pipe as horizontals at no greater that 69 cm spacing. > > The diagonals I have not worked out completely yet. I am looking at double diagonals of 3/16" round bar, idea is, tension only in one or the other, depending on how the truss is trying to twist. So in each window of each face of a truss segment, there is an X of cross braces. Like this: > > http://www.emeraldinsight.com/content_images/fig/1560140207008.png > > I worry a bit about residual loads in the diagonals from thermal expansion from welding. I am thinking taping them with a little bar and looking for a consistent tone will tell me at least if they are consistent. > > I might re-do the calculations with 1/2" pipe for single diagonals, loading them both in tension and compression as the mast tries to twist one way or the other. Like this: > > http://img.archiexpo.com/images_ae/photo-m2/glued-laminated-lattice-beams-60685-2250565.jpg > > It might be easy to create a twisted mast from residual forces after welding. > > I have also considered steel cable as double diagonals, but, I have made no calculations yet. "Standard" radio mast trusses have no horizontals, only diagonals, and then they have little horizontals welded in on the inside corner of some diagonals, to make steps. The member buckling calculations are harder for these. > > I have calculated also for 3/4" x 3/8" flat bar as horizontals to reduce windage. They should take 300 lbs foot loads without bending however, for me, at 220 pounds without a lot of extra gear, I would be careful to spread my weight around and climb slowly as I climb the mast. When I got up to to the place where I was going to work, I would put my feet on two different horizontals while working. For 1/2" round pipe, there is no danger of me bending it under any reasonable foot-loading, even standing on one foot, straining with tools. > > I have not calculated the effects of a safety line hook coming tight quickly (the climber falls on their safety line). I believe in really short safety lines, and no less than 2 of them, so I am never unhooked, and cannot fall far. My job does not require a lot of moving around while I work and I imagine it would be the same on a masthead. Construction workers need longer safety lines so they have the scope to move around and work and such a long safety line coming taught might well be a higher loading case then service loads for the horizontals of a truss. > > The only way for me to feel really good about this entire idea is to weld up one section myself and abuse it. This will test both my welding abilities and my calculations. I figure the test will cost me $50 in scrap pipe for a 20 foot long section of truss. I can set the finished piece across saw-horses and weight it down and try to twist it, and see what happens. If it works out, it would become the uppermost section of my mast and I would make the two 15' lower sections to reach the spreaders, when I was more practiced. Yes, I could make a tapered mast, but, that is more difficult to cut the pieces for welding. As it is, I am already considering jigs to cut the ends of the horizontals easily, consistently and quickly so they mate nicely to the verticals. > > I would make everything to fit the rigging I got with my fractured mast. Someone else working from scratch would have one less thing to worry about. > > There is a lot more to think about with trusses, but, just the idea of being able to erect it by one's self is attractive. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:39:40 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! > > > > Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf aluminium mast? > > > > Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? > > > > It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so could dramatically reduce its windage. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Kim. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared to 5.90 > > > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and compression strengths given here: > > > > > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > > > > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > > > > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, making it more likely to break on impact. > > > > > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar diagonals too. > > > > > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower sections. > > > > > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > > > > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as the aluminium extrusion. > > > > > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > > > > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble at all. > > > > > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > > > > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > > > > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > > > > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds to the entire rig. > > > > > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > > > > > Matt > > ______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28890|28876|2012-09-06 19:12:55|Carl Volkwein|Re: Framing|AS i understand it there are longioitudinal frames going fore and aft along the whole boat. ________________________________ From: mauro gonzaga To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 4:27 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Framing   Would somebody clarify? Origami hull is virtually exempt from framing. What about fuel and water tanks? All in the twin keels? Don't you weld floors to obtain compartments for storage of liquids and solids and to base the cabin floor? Mauro [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28891|28786|2012-09-06 21:17:45|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Matt, I've been loosely following this thread. Is your truss mast free standing, without rigging? Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Matt Malone Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 11:22 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint English Translated: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.yacht-mast.de/yachttip.htm&usg=ALkJrhj6NxVzj1AYvyEoEltqiCAESMOSzw Direct Link to the Half- Translated "Boat Tips" link on the same site: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.yacht-mast.de/yachttip.htm&usg=ALkJrhj6NxVzj1AYvyEoEltqiCAESMOSzw There are a lot of good tips there. It is unfortunate that Google does not seem to translate the entire page. A few points that this lattice mast designer raises: - Almost no wind noise, no crying, no ringing through the redeemed fall (translated) I always had a problem understanding why a truss mast would have to create any more wind noise than a regular rig with all its wires, spreaders, and main mast tube. There may be some particular geometry that creates a whistling noise, a particular intersection of members, but, as a rule, there is no reason why they have to be noisier. It is also quite easy to test, make a 4' length, mount it on roof racks and drive down a road at 10 - 45 mph and listen, remembering, without breaking a sweat, a car drives faster than 98% of the weather you will ever meet. If it makes a lot of noise at higher speeds, who cares, so does a conventional rig. - Considerably less wind resistance than massive masts Comparing one 6-8" round tube to three 1" round tubes, sure. If one has a real foil mast particularly if one can rotate it for the wind direction, well, that is a different story. - Better flow of the mainsail than massive masts I can see that, for round/oval masts. There will be a flow separation point on the mast, it is unavoidable: http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/web/library/enginfo/aerothermal_dvd_only/aero/fprops/introvisc/lamtbsep.gif Remember too, rotate this diagram for your mast-head windvane to align with the flow direction, and you find that the sail on a beating course is attached somewhere around the separation point on the lower side of the cylinder. That leaves a huge turbulent separation bubble at the leading edge of the suction side of your sail -- the power part of a sail operating as a foil. A smaller cylinder (truss tube) makes this bubble smaller. - Easy retrofitting of additional equipment, because all the parts can be clamped or simply angebändselt (translated) Yes - Theft protection: Your boat is equipped with a lattice mast so striking that a thief does not get far! Or the thief decides to go for the nice Beaufort next door. The author does not mention that the ladies might prefer the nice Beaufort next door. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: rvanderes@... Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 14:28:25 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint http://www.yacht-mast.de/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Kim, > > Let me spend some time going over my numbers and checking to make sure I > have not missed anything obvious. I have not calculated for the combined > fore-aft buckle with twist failure mode. > > How do I explain this..... take a really long 2"x10" beam, lay it flat and > hang a weight from it. It will bow down and have no particular tendency > to twist... that is because it is already bending in the easiest bending > direction, called the minimum structural moment of area or "I" direction. > Stand it on edge and constrain the ends so they cannot fall over and hang > a weight in the middle. The beam is now in its stiffest bending > direction. For enough weight, eventually, the beam will twist to one > side in the middle and bend down more. For enough weight, the beam will > attempt to turn to an easier bending direction. That is why one puts in > cross bracing between floor joists in a house. > > For the truss mast I am looking at, the side to side buckle is already at > the lowest structural moment of area direction (easiest bending > direction), so, I am feeling that will not have a tendency to twist to an > "easier" direction. However, fore-aft, from sail forces, the mast is at > its maximum structural moment of area and I just have not finished > considered the potential for twist yet. Round pipe masts and closed > aluminium extrusions have a lot of torsional stiffness but if the > cross-braces are right, then so does the truss. The my gut feeling so > far is, the ratio of I's from easiest to stiffest is 50%, whereas for the > aluminium sections I am comparing to, it is 35% and 36% and it is the > difference in stiffness in one direction compared to the other that would > drive the twist. The thing is, a triangular truss need only rotate 30 > degrees to reach a minimum stiffness direction whereas an extruded section > has to rotate 90 degrees. Having two lower shrouds on each side, set > slightly fore and aft of the mast would also help reduce twist, if the > boat is very stiff. My gut feeling right now is, it requires more energy, > so, more force to buckle with twist. > > As for costing... I can get schedule 40 black iron pipe at my scrap yard > for $0.35 a pound. That is less than $100 for the entire mast. The > only thing that will make this at all competitive to an aluminium > extrusion is if you count your time -- there is no way for me to count > that for someone else. The 5.5" pipe, if bought new, will be pricey, > but that might be found at a scrap yard also. Thing is, 1/2" schedule 40 > pipe is pretty tough to dent. It can end up bent at a scrap yard, but you > just don't buy that piece. Depending on where you are, 5.5" pipe might > be more common, but at a scrap yard, it will more likely get bend. > > Right now, the design is looking like 1/2" schedule 40 pipe for the three > uprights. The uprights are set with 2 toward the bow, one aft. The two > at the front are 12" apart and the aft one is , set 12" aft -- it is not a > symmetric truss. I have calculated for 1/2" schedule 40 pipe as > horizontals at no greater that 69 cm spacing. > > The diagonals I have not worked out completely yet. I am looking at > double diagonals of 3/16" round bar, idea is, tension only in one or the > other, depending on how the truss is trying to twist. So in each window > of each face of a truss segment, there is an X of cross braces. Like > this: > > http://www.emeraldinsight.com/content_images/fig/1560140207008.png > > I worry a bit about residual loads in the diagonals from thermal expansion > from welding. I am thinking taping them with a little bar and looking > for a consistent tone will tell me at least if they are consistent. > > I might re-do the calculations with 1/2" pipe for single diagonals, > loading them both in tension and compression as the mast tries to twist > one way or the other. Like this: > > http://img.archiexpo.com/images_ae/photo-m2/glued-laminated-lattice-beams-60685-2250565.jpg > > It might be easy to create a twisted mast from residual forces after > welding. > > I have also considered steel cable as double diagonals, but, I have made > no calculations yet. "Standard" radio mast trusses have no horizontals, > only diagonals, and then they have little horizontals welded in on the > inside corner of some diagonals, to make steps. The member buckling > calculations are harder for these. > > I have calculated also for 3/4" x 3/8" flat bar as horizontals to reduce > windage. They should take 300 lbs foot loads without bending however, > for me, at 220 pounds without a lot of extra gear, I would be careful to > spread my weight around and climb slowly as I climb the mast. When I got > up to to the place where I was going to work, I would put my feet on two > different horizontals while working. For 1/2" round pipe, there is no > danger of me bending it under any reasonable foot-loading, even standing > on one foot, straining with tools. > > I have not calculated the effects of a safety line hook coming tight > quickly (the climber falls on their safety line). I believe in really > short safety lines, and no less than 2 of them, so I am never unhooked, > and cannot fall far. My job does not require a lot of moving around > while I work and I imagine it would be the same on a masthead. > Construction workers need longer safety lines so they have the scope to > move around and work and such a long safety line coming taught might well > be a higher loading case then service loads for the horizontals of a > truss. > > The only way for me to feel really good about this entire idea is to weld > up one section myself and abuse it. This will test both my welding > abilities and my calculations. I figure the test will cost me $50 in > scrap pipe for a 20 foot long section of truss. I can set the finished > piece across saw-horses and weight it down and try to twist it, and see > what happens. If it works out, it would become the uppermost section of > my mast and I would make the two 15' lower sections to reach the > spreaders, when I was more practiced. Yes, I could make a tapered mast, > but, that is more difficult to cut the pieces for welding. As it is, I > am already considering jigs to cut the ends of the horizontals easily, > consistently and quickly so they mate nicely to the verticals. > > I would make everything to fit the rigging I got with my fractured mast. > Someone else working from scratch would have one less thing to worry > about. > > There is a lot more to think about with trusses, but, just the idea of > being able to erect it by one's self is attractive. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:39:40 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! > > > > Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf > aluminium mast? > > > > Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? > > > > It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals > and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so > could dramatically reduce its windage. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Kim. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 > > steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of > > spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I > > know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The > > truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared > > to 5.90 > > > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same > > boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and > > compression strengths given here: > > > > > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > > > > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right > > now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > > > > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same > > commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a > > lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal > > halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more > > floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, > > the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a > > tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, > > making it more likely to break on impact. > > > > > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not > > sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up > > by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss > > mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and > > larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also > > looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar > > diagonals too. > > > > > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an > > error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any > > other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 > > pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble > > believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 > > pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at > > right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with > > a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as > > you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower > > sections. > > > > > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged > > lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, > > whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with > > lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > > > > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the > > needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended > > extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as > > the aluminium extrusion. > > > > > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the > > limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a > > reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig > > on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even > > a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds > > for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > > > > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire > > mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford > > that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces > > of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble > > at all. > > > > > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled > > by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, > > well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > > > > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an > > Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft > > bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same > > spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than > > half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet > > tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > > > > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say > > his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and > > hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting > > more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > > > > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a > > not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing > > over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds > > to the entire rig. > > > > > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my > > calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is > > certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > > > > > Matt > > ______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ | 28892|28786|2012-09-06 21:55:24|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Hi Gary, No, it would be a simple replacement for the steel pipe recommended for the BS36, and boats of similar weight / size. All the rigging would be the same. Why would anyone want a free-standing mast ? It is a far more difficult structural problem, and, the mast would consequently be far heavier. Also, one would have to keel-step it, and have a cabin top that could take very large side forces. Can anyone describe the advantage of a free-standing mast that might warrant this ? Wire rope is so strong in tension, a mast can be made quite strong in compression. Between the mast and rigging, they are a truss of sorts already. Taking it in the direction where the mast itself is a truss holds the promise of even better use of weight and materials. Taking it in the other direction, eliminating any of the rigging cables only forces the mast to be far heavier, making the rig less weight-efficient. Yes, there are alternatives, like the A-frame mast, but really, that is just shifting structure from the mast to the shrouds, it is not changing the elementary geometry of (a) triangle(s). One important point, my truss mast has not been built, it is still just calculations, to see what is possible. It seems promising for 10-ton sized boats in 1/2 pipe schedule 80 pipe. Next step for me is, I am going to complete the 16' boat reno I am doing in my driveway, then I am going to visit the scrap yard and see if I can find some 1/2 pipe. Then I will test my welding abilities, then I will test my calculations. If all goes well, I will re-measure my current broken mast and all attachment points and complete a truss mast to replace it. Using a lighter weight tube above the spreaders is still a possibility. I may tackle the problem of a tapered truss, or a reduced section truss. Not sure yet. The lower part of the mast drives the primary design. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gary.lucas@... > Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 21:19:14 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > Matt, > I've been loosely following this thread. Is your truss mast free standing, > without rigging? > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Malone > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 11:22 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > English Translated: > > http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.yacht-mast.de/yachttip.htm&usg=ALkJrhj6NxVzj1AYvyEoEltqiCAESMOSzw > > Direct Link to the Half- Translated "Boat Tips" link on the same site: > > http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.yacht-mast.de/yachttip.htm&usg=ALkJrhj6NxVzj1AYvyEoEltqiCAESMOSzw > > There are a lot of good tips there. It is unfortunate that Google does not > seem to translate the entire page. > > > A few points that this lattice mast designer raises: > > - Almost no wind noise, no crying, no ringing through the redeemed fall > (translated) > > I always had a problem understanding why a truss mast would have to create > any more wind noise than a regular rig with all its wires, spreaders, and > main mast tube. There may be some particular geometry that creates a > whistling noise, a particular intersection of members, but, as a rule, there > is no reason why they have to be noisier. It is also quite easy to test, > make a 4' length, mount it on roof racks and drive down a road at 10 - 45 > mph and listen, remembering, without breaking a sweat, a car drives faster > than 98% of the weather you will ever meet. If it makes a lot of noise at > higher speeds, who cares, so does a conventional rig. > > > - Considerably less wind resistance than massive masts > Comparing one 6-8" round tube to three 1" round tubes, sure. If one has a > real foil mast particularly if one can rotate it for the wind direction, > well, that is a different story. > > > - Better flow of the mainsail than massive masts > I can see that, for round/oval masts. There will be a flow separation point > on the mast, it is unavoidable: > http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/web/library/enginfo/aerothermal_dvd_only/aero/fprops/introvisc/lamtbsep.gif > Remember too, rotate this diagram for your mast-head windvane to align with > the flow direction, and you find that the sail on a beating course is > attached somewhere around the separation point on the lower side of the > cylinder. That leaves a huge turbulent separation bubble at the leading > edge of the suction side of your sail -- the power part of a sail operating > as a foil. A smaller cylinder (truss tube) makes this bubble smaller. > > > - Easy retrofitting of additional equipment, because all the parts can be > clamped or simply angebändselt (translated) > > Yes > > - Theft protection: Your boat is equipped with a lattice mast so striking > that a thief does not get far! > Or the thief decides to go for the nice Beaufort next door. > > The author does not mention that the ladies might prefer the nice Beaufort > next door. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: rvanderes@... > Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 14:28:25 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.yacht-mast.de/ > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim, > > > > > > Let me spend some time going over my numbers and checking to make sure I > > have not missed anything obvious. I have not calculated for the combined > > fore-aft buckle with twist failure mode. > > > > > > How do I explain this..... take a really long 2"x10" beam, lay it flat and > > hang a weight from it. It will bow down and have no particular tendency > > to twist... that is because it is already bending in the easiest bending > > direction, called the minimum structural moment of area or "I" direction. > > Stand it on edge and constrain the ends so they cannot fall over and hang > > a weight in the middle. The beam is now in its stiffest bending > > direction. For enough weight, eventually, the beam will twist to one > > side in the middle and bend down more. For enough weight, the beam will > > attempt to turn to an easier bending direction. That is why one puts in > > cross bracing between floor joists in a house. > > > > > > For the truss mast I am looking at, the side to side buckle is already at > > the lowest structural moment of area direction (easiest bending > > direction), so, I am feeling that will not have a tendency to twist to an > > "easier" direction. However, fore-aft, from sail forces, the mast is at > > its maximum structural moment of area and I just have not finished > > considered the potential for twist yet. Round pipe masts and closed > > aluminium extrusions have a lot of torsional stiffness but if the > > cross-braces are right, then so does the truss. The my gut feeling so > > far is, the ratio of I's from easiest to stiffest is 50%, whereas for the > > aluminium sections I am comparing to, it is 35% and 36% and it is the > > difference in stiffness in one direction compared to the other that would > > drive the twist. The thing is, a triangular truss need only rotate 30 > > degrees to reach a minimum stiffness direction whereas an extruded section > > has to rotate 90 degrees. Having two lower shrouds on each side, set > > slightly fore and aft of the mast would also help reduce twist, if the > > boat is very stiff. My gut feeling right now is, it requires more energy, > > so, more force to buckle with twist. > > > > > > As for costing... I can get schedule 40 black iron pipe at my scrap yard > > for $0.35 a pound. That is less than $100 for the entire mast. The > > only thing that will make this at all competitive to an aluminium > > extrusion is if you count your time -- there is no way for me to count > > that for someone else. The 5.5" pipe, if bought new, will be pricey, > > but that might be found at a scrap yard also. Thing is, 1/2" schedule 40 > > pipe is pretty tough to dent. It can end up bent at a scrap yard, but you > > just don't buy that piece. Depending on where you are, 5.5" pipe might > > be more common, but at a scrap yard, it will more likely get bend. > > > > > > Right now, the design is looking like 1/2" schedule 40 pipe for the three > > uprights. The uprights are set with 2 toward the bow, one aft. The two > > at the front are 12" apart and the aft one is , set 12" aft -- it is not a > > symmetric truss. I have calculated for 1/2" schedule 40 pipe as > > horizontals at no greater that 69 cm spacing. > > > > > > The diagonals I have not worked out completely yet. I am looking at > > double diagonals of 3/16" round bar, idea is, tension only in one or the > > other, depending on how the truss is trying to twist. So in each window > > of each face of a truss segment, there is an X of cross braces. Like > > this: > > > > > > http://www.emeraldinsight.com/content_images/fig/1560140207008.png > > > > > > I worry a bit about residual loads in the diagonals from thermal expansion > > from welding. I am thinking taping them with a little bar and looking > > for a consistent tone will tell me at least if they are consistent. > > > > > > I might re-do the calculations with 1/2" pipe for single diagonals, > > loading them both in tension and compression as the mast tries to twist > > one way or the other. Like this: > > > > > > http://img.archiexpo.com/images_ae/photo-m2/glued-laminated-lattice-beams-60685-2250565.jpg > > > > > > It might be easy to create a twisted mast from residual forces after > > welding. > > > > > > I have also considered steel cable as double diagonals, but, I have made > > no calculations yet. "Standard" radio mast trusses have no horizontals, > > only diagonals, and then they have little horizontals welded in on the > > inside corner of some diagonals, to make steps. The member buckling > > calculations are harder for these. > > > > > > I have calculated also for 3/4" x 3/8" flat bar as horizontals to reduce > > windage. They should take 300 lbs foot loads without bending however, > > for me, at 220 pounds without a lot of extra gear, I would be careful to > > spread my weight around and climb slowly as I climb the mast. When I got > > up to to the place where I was going to work, I would put my feet on two > > different horizontals while working. For 1/2" round pipe, there is no > > danger of me bending it under any reasonable foot-loading, even standing > > on one foot, straining with tools. > > > > > > I have not calculated the effects of a safety line hook coming tight > > quickly (the climber falls on their safety line). I believe in really > > short safety lines, and no less than 2 of them, so I am never unhooked, > > and cannot fall far. My job does not require a lot of moving around > > while I work and I imagine it would be the same on a masthead. > > Construction workers need longer safety lines so they have the scope to > > move around and work and such a long safety line coming taught might well > > be a higher loading case then service loads for the horizontals of a > > truss. > > > > > > The only way for me to feel really good about this entire idea is to weld > > up one section myself and abuse it. This will test both my welding > > abilities and my calculations. I figure the test will cost me $50 in > > scrap pipe for a 20 foot long section of truss. I can set the finished > > piece across saw-horses and weight it down and try to twist it, and see > > what happens. If it works out, it would become the uppermost section of > > my mast and I would make the two 15' lower sections to reach the > > spreaders, when I was more practiced. Yes, I could make a tapered mast, > > but, that is more difficult to cut the pieces for welding. As it is, I > > am already considering jigs to cut the ends of the horizontals easily, > > consistently and quickly so they mate nicely to the verticals. > > > > > > I would make everything to fit the rigging I got with my fractured mast. > > Someone else working from scratch would have one less thing to worry > > about. > > > > > > There is a lot more to think about with trusses, but, just the idea of > > being able to erect it by one's self is attractive. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: kimdxx@... > > > Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:39:40 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf > > aluminium mast? > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? > > > > > > > > > > > > It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals > > and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so > > could dramatically reduce its windage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 > > > steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of > > > spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I > > > know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The > > > truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared > > > to 5.90 > > > > > > > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same > > > boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and > > > compression strengths given here: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right > > > now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same > > > commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a > > > lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal > > > halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more > > > floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, > > > the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a > > > tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, > > > making it more likely to break on impact. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not > > > sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up > > > by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss > > > mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and > > > larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also > > > looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar > > > diagonals too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an > > > error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any > > > other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 > > > pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble > > > believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 > > > pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at > > > right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with > > > a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as > > > you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower > > > sections. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged > > > lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, > > > whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with > > > lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the > > > needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended > > > extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as > > > the aluminium extrusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the > > > limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a > > > reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig > > > on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even > > > a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds > > > for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire > > > mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford > > > that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces > > > of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble > > > at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled > > > by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, > > > well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an > > > Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft > > > bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same > > > spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than > > > half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet > > > tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say > > > his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and > > > hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting > > > more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a > > > not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing > > > over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds > > > to the entire rig. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my > > > calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is > > > certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28893|28786|2012-09-06 23:07:43|Mark Hamill|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|Block Island boats have free standing masts--I think WoodenBoat had a great article about a modern design that worked out great--In fact I loved that boat. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28894|28894|2012-09-11 09:20:51|zethkinnett@ymail.com|does brent swain have a website?|what is it. i cant seem to find one. if not is there a site about origami boats and one that has plans for sale etc?| 28895|28894|2012-09-11 09:28:15|John Fisher|Re: does brent swain have a website?|Brent doesn't have a web site. You order plans by snail mail. On Sep 7, 2012, at 11:16 AM, "zethkinnett@..." wrote: > what is it. i cant seem to find one. if not is there a site about origami boats and one that has plans for sale etc? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28896|28786|2012-09-11 19:03:10|brentswain38|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|With a marconi rig and a tapered mast, the taper should only start 70% above the decks, offering very little in weight saving. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Hi Gary, > > No, it would be a simple replacement for the steel pipe recommended for the BS36, and boats of similar weight / size. All the rigging would be the same. Why would anyone want a free-standing mast ? It is a far more difficult structural problem, and, the mast would consequently be far heavier. Also, one would have to keel-step it, and have a cabin top that could take very large side forces. Can anyone describe the advantage of a free-standing mast that might warrant this ? > > Wire rope is so strong in tension, a mast can be made quite strong in compression. Between the mast and rigging, they are a truss of sorts already. Taking it in the direction where the mast itself is a truss holds the promise of even better use of weight and materials. > > Taking it in the other direction, eliminating any of the rigging cables only forces the mast to be far heavier, making the rig less weight-efficient. Yes, there are alternatives, like the A-frame mast, but really, that is just shifting structure from the mast to the shrouds, it is not changing the elementary geometry of (a) triangle(s). > > One important point, my truss mast has not been built, it is still just calculations, to see what is possible. It seems promising for 10-ton sized boats in 1/2 pipe schedule 80 pipe. Next step for me is, I am going to complete the 16' boat reno I am doing in my driveway, then I am going to visit the scrap yard and see if I can find some 1/2 pipe. Then I will test my welding abilities, then I will test my calculations. If all goes well, I will re-measure my current broken mast and all attachment points and complete a truss mast to replace it. > > Using a lighter weight tube above the spreaders is still a possibility. I may tackle the problem of a tapered truss, or a reduced section truss. Not sure yet. The lower part of the mast drives the primary design. > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: gary.lucas@... > > Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 21:19:14 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > Matt, > > I've been loosely following this thread. Is your truss mast free standing, > > without rigging? > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Matt Malone > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 11:22 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > English Translated: > > > > http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.yacht-mast.de/yachttip.htm&usg=ALkJrhj6NxVzj1AYvyEoEltqiCAESMOSzw > > > > Direct Link to the Half- Translated "Boat Tips" link on the same site: > > > > http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.yacht-mast.de/yachttip.htm&usg=ALkJrhj6NxVzj1AYvyEoEltqiCAESMOSzw > > > > There are a lot of good tips there. It is unfortunate that Google does not > > seem to translate the entire page. > > > > > > A few points that this lattice mast designer raises: > > > > - Almost no wind noise, no crying, no ringing through the redeemed fall > > (translated) > > > > I always had a problem understanding why a truss mast would have to create > > any more wind noise than a regular rig with all its wires, spreaders, and > > main mast tube. There may be some particular geometry that creates a > > whistling noise, a particular intersection of members, but, as a rule, there > > is no reason why they have to be noisier. It is also quite easy to test, > > make a 4' length, mount it on roof racks and drive down a road at 10 - 45 > > mph and listen, remembering, without breaking a sweat, a car drives faster > > than 98% of the weather you will ever meet. If it makes a lot of noise at > > higher speeds, who cares, so does a conventional rig. > > > > > > - Considerably less wind resistance than massive masts > > Comparing one 6-8" round tube to three 1" round tubes, sure. If one has a > > real foil mast particularly if one can rotate it for the wind direction, > > well, that is a different story. > > > > > > - Better flow of the mainsail than massive masts > > I can see that, for round/oval masts. There will be a flow separation point > > on the mast, it is unavoidable: > > http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/web/library/enginfo/aerothermal_dvd_only/aero/fprops/introvisc/lamtbsep.gif > > Remember too, rotate this diagram for your mast-head windvane to align with > > the flow direction, and you find that the sail on a beating course is > > attached somewhere around the separation point on the lower side of the > > cylinder. That leaves a huge turbulent separation bubble at the leading > > edge of the suction side of your sail -- the power part of a sail operating > > as a foil. A smaller cylinder (truss tube) makes this bubble smaller. > > > > > > - Easy retrofitting of additional equipment, because all the parts can be > > clamped or simply angebändselt (translated) > > > > Yes > > > > - Theft protection: Your boat is equipped with a lattice mast so striking > > that a thief does not get far! > > Or the thief decides to go for the nice Beaufort next door. > > > > The author does not mention that the ladies might prefer the nice Beaufort > > next door. > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: rvanderes@... > > Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 14:28:25 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.yacht-mast.de/ > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim, > > > > > > > > > > Let me spend some time going over my numbers and checking to make sure I > > > have not missed anything obvious. I have not calculated for the combined > > > fore-aft buckle with twist failure mode. > > > > > > > > > > How do I explain this..... take a really long 2"x10" beam, lay it flat and > > > hang a weight from it. It will bow down and have no particular tendency > > > to twist... that is because it is already bending in the easiest bending > > > direction, called the minimum structural moment of area or "I" direction. > > > Stand it on edge and constrain the ends so they cannot fall over and hang > > > a weight in the middle. The beam is now in its stiffest bending > > > direction. For enough weight, eventually, the beam will twist to one > > > side in the middle and bend down more. For enough weight, the beam will > > > attempt to turn to an easier bending direction. That is why one puts in > > > cross bracing between floor joists in a house. > > > > > > > > > > For the truss mast I am looking at, the side to side buckle is already at > > > the lowest structural moment of area direction (easiest bending > > > direction), so, I am feeling that will not have a tendency to twist to an > > > "easier" direction. However, fore-aft, from sail forces, the mast is at > > > its maximum structural moment of area and I just have not finished > > > considered the potential for twist yet. Round pipe masts and closed > > > aluminium extrusions have a lot of torsional stiffness but if the > > > cross-braces are right, then so does the truss. The my gut feeling so > > > far is, the ratio of I's from easiest to stiffest is 50%, whereas for the > > > aluminium sections I am comparing to, it is 35% and 36% and it is the > > > difference in stiffness in one direction compared to the other that would > > > drive the twist. The thing is, a triangular truss need only rotate 30 > > > degrees to reach a minimum stiffness direction whereas an extruded section > > > has to rotate 90 degrees. Having two lower shrouds on each side, set > > > slightly fore and aft of the mast would also help reduce twist, if the > > > boat is very stiff. My gut feeling right now is, it requires more energy, > > > so, more force to buckle with twist. > > > > > > > > > > As for costing... I can get schedule 40 black iron pipe at my scrap yard > > > for $0.35 a pound. That is less than $100 for the entire mast. The > > > only thing that will make this at all competitive to an aluminium > > > extrusion is if you count your time -- there is no way for me to count > > > that for someone else. The 5.5" pipe, if bought new, will be pricey, > > > but that might be found at a scrap yard also. Thing is, 1/2" schedule 40 > > > pipe is pretty tough to dent. It can end up bent at a scrap yard, but you > > > just don't buy that piece. Depending on where you are, 5.5" pipe might > > > be more common, but at a scrap yard, it will more likely get bend. > > > > > > > > > > Right now, the design is looking like 1/2" schedule 40 pipe for the three > > > uprights. The uprights are set with 2 toward the bow, one aft. The two > > > at the front are 12" apart and the aft one is , set 12" aft -- it is not a > > > symmetric truss. I have calculated for 1/2" schedule 40 pipe as > > > horizontals at no greater that 69 cm spacing. > > > > > > > > > > The diagonals I have not worked out completely yet. I am looking at > > > double diagonals of 3/16" round bar, idea is, tension only in one or the > > > other, depending on how the truss is trying to twist. So in each window > > > of each face of a truss segment, there is an X of cross braces. Like > > > this: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.emeraldinsight.com/content_images/fig/1560140207008.png > > > > > > > > > > I worry a bit about residual loads in the diagonals from thermal expansion > > > from welding. I am thinking taping them with a little bar and looking > > > for a consistent tone will tell me at least if they are consistent. > > > > > > > > > > I might re-do the calculations with 1/2" pipe for single diagonals, > > > loading them both in tension and compression as the mast tries to twist > > > one way or the other. Like this: > > > > > > > > > > http://img.archiexpo.com/images_ae/photo-m2/glued-laminated-lattice-beams-60685-2250565.jpg > > > > > > > > > > It might be easy to create a twisted mast from residual forces after > > > welding. > > > > > > > > > > I have also considered steel cable as double diagonals, but, I have made > > > no calculations yet. "Standard" radio mast trusses have no horizontals, > > > only diagonals, and then they have little horizontals welded in on the > > > inside corner of some diagonals, to make steps. The member buckling > > > calculations are harder for these. > > > > > > > > > > I have calculated also for 3/4" x 3/8" flat bar as horizontals to reduce > > > windage. They should take 300 lbs foot loads without bending however, > > > for me, at 220 pounds without a lot of extra gear, I would be careful to > > > spread my weight around and climb slowly as I climb the mast. When I got > > > up to to the place where I was going to work, I would put my feet on two > > > different horizontals while working. For 1/2" round pipe, there is no > > > danger of me bending it under any reasonable foot-loading, even standing > > > on one foot, straining with tools. > > > > > > > > > > I have not calculated the effects of a safety line hook coming tight > > > quickly (the climber falls on their safety line). I believe in really > > > short safety lines, and no less than 2 of them, so I am never unhooked, > > > and cannot fall far. My job does not require a lot of moving around > > > while I work and I imagine it would be the same on a masthead. > > > Construction workers need longer safety lines so they have the scope to > > > move around and work and such a long safety line coming taught might well > > > be a higher loading case then service loads for the horizontals of a > > > truss. > > > > > > > > > > The only way for me to feel really good about this entire idea is to weld > > > up one section myself and abuse it. This will test both my welding > > > abilities and my calculations. I figure the test will cost me $50 in > > > scrap pipe for a 20 foot long section of truss. I can set the finished > > > piece across saw-horses and weight it down and try to twist it, and see > > > what happens. If it works out, it would become the uppermost section of > > > my mast and I would make the two 15' lower sections to reach the > > > spreaders, when I was more practiced. Yes, I could make a tapered mast, > > > but, that is more difficult to cut the pieces for welding. As it is, I > > > am already considering jigs to cut the ends of the horizontals easily, > > > consistently and quickly so they mate nicely to the verticals. > > > > > > > > > > I would make everything to fit the rigging I got with my fractured mast. > > > Someone else working from scratch would have one less thing to worry > > > about. > > > > > > > > > > There is a lot more to think about with trusses, but, just the idea of > > > being able to erect it by one's self is attractive. > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: kimdxx@ > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:39:40 +0000 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf > > > aluminium mast? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals > > > and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so > > > could dramatically reduce its windage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 > > > > steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of > > > > spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I > > > > know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The > > > > truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared > > > > to 5.90 > > > > > > > > > > > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same > > > > boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and > > > > compression strengths given here: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right > > > > now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same > > > > commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a > > > > lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal > > > > halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more > > > > floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, > > > > the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a > > > > tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, > > > > making it more likely to break on impact. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not > > > > sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up > > > > by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss > > > > mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and > > > > larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also > > > > looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar > > > > diagonals too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an > > > > error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any > > > > other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 > > > > pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble > > > > believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 > > > > pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at > > > > right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with > > > > a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as > > > > you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower > > > > sections. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged > > > > lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, > > > > whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with > > > > lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the > > > > needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended > > > > extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as > > > > the aluminium extrusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the > > > > limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a > > > > reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig > > > > on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even > > > > a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds > > > > for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire > > > > mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford > > > > that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces > > > > of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble > > > > at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled > > > > by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, > > > > well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an > > > > Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft > > > > bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same > > > > spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than > > > > half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet > > > > tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say > > > > his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and > > > > hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting > > > > more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a > > > > not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing > > > > over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds > > > > to the entire rig. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my > > > > calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is > > > > certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28897|28786|2012-09-11 22:43:10|Matt Malone|Re: Mast weight and mast paint|True, little in weight, but more in moment on the boat. A 10 pounds at 50 feet above center of mass is like 100 pounds 5 feet above the center of mass, or an engine 1 foot above the center of mass. Alternately, one would have to mount their engine a foot lower than they otherwise would to balance an additional 10 pounds at the top of the mast. Looking at it that way changes the perspective a bit. 70%... hummm I will recompute a little. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 23:03:06 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint With a marconi rig and a tapered mast, the taper should only start 70% above the decks, offering very little in weight saving. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Hi Gary, > > No, it would be a simple replacement for the steel pipe recommended for the BS36, and boats of similar weight / size. All the rigging would be the same. Why would anyone want a free-standing mast ? It is a far more difficult structural problem, and, the mast would consequently be far heavier. Also, one would have to keel-step it, and have a cabin top that could take very large side forces. Can anyone describe the advantage of a free-standing mast that might warrant this ? > > Wire rope is so strong in tension, a mast can be made quite strong in compression. Between the mast and rigging, they are a truss of sorts already. Taking it in the direction where the mast itself is a truss holds the promise of even better use of weight and materials. > > Taking it in the other direction, eliminating any of the rigging cables only forces the mast to be far heavier, making the rig less weight-efficient. Yes, there are alternatives, like the A-frame mast, but really, that is just shifting structure from the mast to the shrouds, it is not changing the elementary geometry of (a) triangle(s). > > One important point, my truss mast has not been built, it is still just calculations, to see what is possible. It seems promising for 10-ton sized boats in 1/2 pipe schedule 80 pipe. Next step for me is, I am going to complete the 16' boat reno I am doing in my driveway, then I am going to visit the scrap yard and see if I can find some 1/2 pipe. Then I will test my welding abilities, then I will test my calculations. If all goes well, I will re-measure my current broken mast and all attachment points and complete a truss mast to replace it. > > Using a lighter weight tube above the spreaders is still a possibility. I may tackle the problem of a tapered truss, or a reduced section truss. Not sure yet. The lower part of the mast drives the primary design. > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: gary.lucas@... > > Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 21:19:14 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > Matt, > > I've been loosely following this thread. Is your truss mast free standing, > > without rigging? > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Matt Malone > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 11:22 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > English Translated: > > > > http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.yacht-mast.de/yachttip.htm&usg=ALkJrhj6NxVzj1AYvyEoEltqiCAESMOSzw > > > > Direct Link to the Half- Translated "Boat Tips" link on the same site: > > > > http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.yacht-mast.de/yachttip.htm&usg=ALkJrhj6NxVzj1AYvyEoEltqiCAESMOSzw > > > > There are a lot of good tips there. It is unfortunate that Google does not > > seem to translate the entire page. > > > > > > A few points that this lattice mast designer raises: > > > > - Almost no wind noise, no crying, no ringing through the redeemed fall > > (translated) > > > > I always had a problem understanding why a truss mast would have to create > > any more wind noise than a regular rig with all its wires, spreaders, and > > main mast tube. There may be some particular geometry that creates a > > whistling noise, a particular intersection of members, but, as a rule, there > > is no reason why they have to be noisier. It is also quite easy to test, > > make a 4' length, mount it on roof racks and drive down a road at 10 - 45 > > mph and listen, remembering, without breaking a sweat, a car drives faster > > than 98% of the weather you will ever meet. If it makes a lot of noise at > > higher speeds, who cares, so does a conventional rig. > > > > > > - Considerably less wind resistance than massive masts > > Comparing one 6-8" round tube to three 1" round tubes, sure. If one has a > > real foil mast particularly if one can rotate it for the wind direction, > > well, that is a different story. > > > > > > - Better flow of the mainsail than massive masts > > I can see that, for round/oval masts. There will be a flow separation point > > on the mast, it is unavoidable: > > http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/web/library/enginfo/aerothermal_dvd_only/aero/fprops/introvisc/lamtbsep.gif > > Remember too, rotate this diagram for your mast-head windvane to align with > > the flow direction, and you find that the sail on a beating course is > > attached somewhere around the separation point on the lower side of the > > cylinder. That leaves a huge turbulent separation bubble at the leading > > edge of the suction side of your sail -- the power part of a sail operating > > as a foil. A smaller cylinder (truss tube) makes this bubble smaller. > > > > > > - Easy retrofitting of additional equipment, because all the parts can be > > clamped or simply angeb�ndselt (translated) > > > > Yes > > > > - Theft protection: Your boat is equipped with a lattice mast so striking > > that a thief does not get far! > > Or the thief decides to go for the nice Beaufort next door. > > > > The author does not mention that the ladies might prefer the nice Beaufort > > next door. > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: rvanderes@... > > Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 14:28:25 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.yacht-mast.de/ > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim, > > > > > > > > > > Let me spend some time going over my numbers and checking to make sure I > > > have not missed anything obvious. I have not calculated for the combined > > > fore-aft buckle with twist failure mode. > > > > > > > > > > How do I explain this..... take a really long 2"x10" beam, lay it flat and > > > hang a weight from it. It will bow down and have no particular tendency > > > to twist... that is because it is already bending in the easiest bending > > > direction, called the minimum structural moment of area or "I" direction. > > > Stand it on edge and constrain the ends so they cannot fall over and hang > > > a weight in the middle. The beam is now in its stiffest bending > > > direction. For enough weight, eventually, the beam will twist to one > > > side in the middle and bend down more. For enough weight, the beam will > > > attempt to turn to an easier bending direction. That is why one puts in > > > cross bracing between floor joists in a house. > > > > > > > > > > For the truss mast I am looking at, the side to side buckle is already at > > > the lowest structural moment of area direction (easiest bending > > > direction), so, I am feeling that will not have a tendency to twist to an > > > "easier" direction. However, fore-aft, from sail forces, the mast is at > > > its maximum structural moment of area and I just have not finished > > > considered the potential for twist yet. Round pipe masts and closed > > > aluminium extrusions have a lot of torsional stiffness but if the > > > cross-braces are right, then so does the truss. The my gut feeling so > > > far is, the ratio of I's from easiest to stiffest is 50%, whereas for the > > > aluminium sections I am comparing to, it is 35% and 36% and it is the > > > difference in stiffness in one direction compared to the other that would > > > drive the twist. The thing is, a triangular truss need only rotate 30 > > > degrees to reach a minimum stiffness direction whereas an extruded section > > > has to rotate 90 degrees. Having two lower shrouds on each side, set > > > slightly fore and aft of the mast would also help reduce twist, if the > > > boat is very stiff. My gut feeling right now is, it requires more energy, > > > so, more force to buckle with twist. > > > > > > > > > > As for costing... I can get schedule 40 black iron pipe at my scrap yard > > > for $0.35 a pound. That is less than $100 for the entire mast. The > > > only thing that will make this at all competitive to an aluminium > > > extrusion is if you count your time -- there is no way for me to count > > > that for someone else. The 5.5" pipe, if bought new, will be pricey, > > > but that might be found at a scrap yard also. Thing is, 1/2" schedule 40 > > > pipe is pretty tough to dent. It can end up bent at a scrap yard, but you > > > just don't buy that piece. Depending on where you are, 5.5" pipe might > > > be more common, but at a scrap yard, it will more likely get bend. > > > > > > > > > > Right now, the design is looking like 1/2" schedule 40 pipe for the three > > > uprights. The uprights are set with 2 toward the bow, one aft. The two > > > at the front are 12" apart and the aft one is , set 12" aft -- it is not a > > > symmetric truss. I have calculated for 1/2" schedule 40 pipe as > > > horizontals at no greater that 69 cm spacing. > > > > > > > > > > The diagonals I have not worked out completely yet. I am looking at > > > double diagonals of 3/16" round bar, idea is, tension only in one or the > > > other, depending on how the truss is trying to twist. So in each window > > > of each face of a truss segment, there is an X of cross braces. Like > > > this: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.emeraldinsight.com/content_images/fig/1560140207008.png > > > > > > > > > > I worry a bit about residual loads in the diagonals from thermal expansion > > > from welding. I am thinking taping them with a little bar and looking > > > for a consistent tone will tell me at least if they are consistent. > > > > > > > > > > I might re-do the calculations with 1/2" pipe for single diagonals, > > > loading them both in tension and compression as the mast tries to twist > > > one way or the other. Like this: > > > > > > > > > > http://img.archiexpo.com/images_ae/photo-m2/glued-laminated-lattice-beams-60685-2250565.jpg > > > > > > > > > > It might be easy to create a twisted mast from residual forces after > > > welding. > > > > > > > > > > I have also considered steel cable as double diagonals, but, I have made > > > no calculations yet. "Standard" radio mast trusses have no horizontals, > > > only diagonals, and then they have little horizontals welded in on the > > > inside corner of some diagonals, to make steps. The member buckling > > > calculations are harder for these. > > > > > > > > > > I have calculated also for 3/4" x 3/8" flat bar as horizontals to reduce > > > windage. They should take 300 lbs foot loads without bending however, > > > for me, at 220 pounds without a lot of extra gear, I would be careful to > > > spread my weight around and climb slowly as I climb the mast. When I got > > > up to to the place where I was going to work, I would put my feet on two > > > different horizontals while working. For 1/2" round pipe, there is no > > > danger of me bending it under any reasonable foot-loading, even standing > > > on one foot, straining with tools. > > > > > > > > > > I have not calculated the effects of a safety line hook coming tight > > > quickly (the climber falls on their safety line). I believe in really > > > short safety lines, and no less than 2 of them, so I am never unhooked, > > > and cannot fall far. My job does not require a lot of moving around > > > while I work and I imagine it would be the same on a masthead. > > > Construction workers need longer safety lines so they have the scope to > > > move around and work and such a long safety line coming taught might well > > > be a higher loading case then service loads for the horizontals of a > > > truss. > > > > > > > > > > The only way for me to feel really good about this entire idea is to weld > > > up one section myself and abuse it. This will test both my welding > > > abilities and my calculations. I figure the test will cost me $50 in > > > scrap pipe for a 20 foot long section of truss. I can set the finished > > > piece across saw-horses and weight it down and try to twist it, and see > > > what happens. If it works out, it would become the uppermost section of > > > my mast and I would make the two 15' lower sections to reach the > > > spreaders, when I was more practiced. Yes, I could make a tapered mast, > > > but, that is more difficult to cut the pieces for welding. As it is, I > > > am already considering jigs to cut the ends of the horizontals easily, > > > consistently and quickly so they mate nicely to the verticals. > > > > > > > > > > I would make everything to fit the rigging I got with my fractured mast. > > > Someone else working from scratch would have one less thing to worry > > > about. > > > > > > > > > > There is a lot more to think about with trusses, but, just the idea of > > > being able to erect it by one's self is attractive. > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: kimdxx@ > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:39:40 +0000 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast weight and mast paint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt ... This sounds really intriguing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you done a costing of the truss mast -v- an ordinary off-the-shelf > > > aluminium mast? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you have a drawing/diagram of the truss mast structure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will be very interesting if you find that using flat-bar horizontals > > > and/or diagonals compromises its strength; but I imagine that doing so > > > could dramatically reduce its windage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have done some calculations for a truss mast based on 1/2" schedule 40 > > > > steel pipe. I am assuming a 50' deck-stepped rig, with one set of > > > > spreaders at 30' on a 10 ton (imperial) boat. This is my boat, and I > > > > know it is heavier than a BS36 but have patience, this gets good. The > > > > truss mast has an average section weight of 4.5 pounds / foot compared > > > > to 5.90 > > > > > > > > > > > pounds/foot for a comparable commercial aluminium extrusion for the same > > > > boat. It seems to exceed, by a factor of 2, recommended buckling and > > > > compression strengths given here: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And seems to exceed by 33% other Nordic standards (can't find them right > > > > now) that would recommend a 15 ton mast bucking load on a 10 ton boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also seems to exceed, by a factor of 3, the EI stiffness of that same > > > > commercial extruded mast recommended for such boats. Yes, there is a > > > > lot of welding there, and, if one sealed an extruded mast (no internal > > > > halyards) then the extruded mast would provide a tremendous amount more > > > > floatation if one ends up with the mast below water. Unfortunately, > > > > the extruded section at over 8" fore and aft would also experience a > > > > tremendous amount more force when it hit the water at the same speed, > > > > making it more likely to break on impact. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the wind-noise of truss masts has been mentioned before... I am not > > > > sure how they could be much noisier than a larger diameter pipe held up > > > > by steel cables that are smaller than the pipes that make up the truss > > > > mast -- it seems a conventional rig has things that are both smaller and > > > > larger. Yes, perhaps they are not as aerodynamic, however, I am also > > > > looking at flat-bar horizontals and head-wind-minimum drag flat-bar > > > > diagonals too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not finished my calculations, I might well find I have made an > > > > error somewhere, but, I am starting to wonder why I would consider any > > > > other mast. The weight of the mast without hardware would be about 225 > > > > pounds for a 50' mast. Even with a massive head-piece, I have trouble > > > > believing it will be over 250 pounds. I am thinking of making it in 3 > > > > pieces so one can self-raise the lower 15' section (with a gin-pole at > > > > right angles if one cannot muscle a 85 pound-15' section into place with > > > > a few lines and a friend), and then hoist the upper sections, staying as > > > > you go, with the same gin pole vertical on the already standing lower > > > > sections. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it has built-in ladder-like mast steps, all internal, so, no snagged > > > > lines or sails. I am not really keen on climbing a smooth pole, > > > > whereas a really tall ladder, waving back and forth in the breeze, with > > > > lots of spots to hook on an emergency line, just feels more secure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A 3/4" schedule-80 pipe-based truss mast seems to have 3.5 times the > > > > needed buckling strength, and about 5 times the EI of the recommended > > > > extrusion, at the cost of about 5.82 pounds / foot -- about the same as > > > > the aluminium extrusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of these masts are more capable than the BS36 calls for, but, the > > > > limit is weight, and, 225 pounds sounds really nice. With a > > > > reduced-sized truss above the spreaders, one could have a very tall rig > > > > on a BS36, or more complex instrumentation at the masthead, perhaps even > > > > a radar at the masthead. If one stuck to 42 feet, that is 189 pounds > > > > for the truss -- that is 110 pounds less than the 5.5" pipe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One thing I might spend some of the saved weight on is having the entire > > > > mast galvanized, depending on the cost. I knew of a place in Brantford > > > > that could galvanize things as large as a greyhound bus, so three pieces > > > > of mast one could bring in on a landscaping trailer should be no trouble > > > > at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, and bringing the mast down to pieces that are a size easily handled > > > > by one man with no crane, would seem to make it easier to contemplate, > > > > well, taking it down and getting things done to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recommended steel pipe (5.5" diameter, 1/8" wall, 42' length) has an > > > > Ixx of 7.6 in^4 compared to 18.2 in^4 (to the side, larger for fore&aft > > > > bending) for the truss based on 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. For the same > > > > spreader height, mast height etc, teh recommended pipe has less than > > > > half the buckling strength, and it appears is 33% heavier at 42 feet > > > > tall than the truss is at 50 feet tall. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, so ignore the bonus in buckling strength, I am sure Brent will say > > > > his mast design has never buckled in thousands of sea-miles and > > > > hurricanes... just take the weight savings and worry less about mounting > > > > more lights, and antennas on the mast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Schedule 40 pipe is only 0.11" thick, as compared to 0.125" thick -- a > > > > not-inconsiderable increased challenge for welding -- but even globbing > > > > over a few burn-through holes, you are not adding more than a few pounds > > > > to the entire rig. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As attractive as this sounds, I would like to find an error in my > > > > calculations because, a steel pipe, requiring only 2 or 3 welds, is > > > > certainly easier and it is the Brent Swain-sea-miles-proven option. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28898|28898|2012-09-12 02:34:49|Kim|Propeller line-cutter.|Hi Brent ... I've been trying to get my head around the actual design/structure of your propeller line-cutter. You've mentioned it a couple of times, once back in 2007 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15311), where you said ... "I welded a 1 inch by 2 inch piece of 1/4 inch stainless to the sharp backside of the aperture , then bolted a sharp piece of stainless to it, at a 45 degree angle touching the prop hub. Any line that tries to wrap around the prop tightens around this blade." ... and again more recently some weeks ago (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/28751), where you said ... "Weld a vertical piece of 1/4 inch by 1 inch stainless flat bar with a couple of 1/4 inch holes in it, to the V in front of the prop, to bolt a line cutter blade to." Based on your written descriptions of the line-cutter, I've done this quick sketch ... http://tinyurl.com/Line-Cutter Is that the way it should be? I thought I'd check with you to ensure that was, in fact, what you meant, before actually welding the bits on my boat! If my sketch is a correct interpretation of your propeller line-cutter, then would it be even better to have two cutters: one above and another below the prop shaft? Although in your message you said that the blade was "touching the prop hub", I assume that for an engine on flexible mounts there would have to be some gap there? Also, how sharp does the cutting edge of the cutting blade need to be? I guess the answer to that would be "as sharp as possible"; but does it need to be ultra-sharp like a razor-blade, or would as sharp as a table-knife be OK? Many thanks Brent! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________| 28899|28894|2012-09-12 03:10:55|Kim|Re: does brent swain have a website?|Zeth ... Brent himself doesn't have a website. His contact details are in a text file called "PLANS ORDER INFORMATION -- BRENT SWAIN" which can be found in the FILES section of this group. That file tells you how to contact Brent by snail-mail, order his book & plans, etc. There is also Alex's very informative website at http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats/ (It was Alex who founded this Yahoo group.) Alex's 2-DVD video is excellent! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@..." wrote: > > what is it. i cant seem to find one. if not is there a site about origami boats and one that has plans for sale etc? > | 28900|28898|2012-09-12 07:34:08|Matt Malone|Re: Propeller line-cutter.|Make sure to leave room for a shaft zinc. There are cutters that attach to a zinc, sort of a serrated disk that rotates with the shaft. "Shaft Shark" is a name I see. It would seem to me that a stationary combined with a rotating blade would work the best. If you cut a little notch in the bottom of your sharpened triangle, then the second serrated cutter could rotate through the notch, and one way or the other, the rope would come up against a sharp edge that is rotating relative to it. Alternately, one could rotate the sharpened triangle 90 degrees so that the flat side was parallel to the shaft, sharpen the dull edge, so it works in forward and reverse, and have it just above the rotating serrated blade, so that the blades are in close proximity, but at 90 degrees to one another. If the rope wraps the prop and tries to turn with the prop, the stationary blade cuts it. If the prop catches the bitter end of a rope that is laying along the bottom of the hull (say a sheet line) and starts wrapping it stationary around the shaft, then the rotating cutter bites into it. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kimdxx@... Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 06:34:40 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Propeller line-cutter. Hi Brent ... I've been trying to get my head around the actual design/structure of your propeller line-cutter. You've mentioned it a couple of times, once back in 2007 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15311), where you said ... "I welded a 1 inch by 2 inch piece of 1/4 inch stainless to the sharp backside of the aperture , then bolted a sharp piece of stainless to it, at a 45 degree angle touching the prop hub. Any line that tries to wrap around the prop tightens around this blade." ... and again more recently some weeks ago (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/28751), where you said ... "Weld a vertical piece of 1/4 inch by 1 inch stainless flat bar with a couple of 1/4 inch holes in it, to the V in front of the prop, to bolt a line cutter blade to." Based on your written descriptions of the line-cutter, I've done this quick sketch ... http://tinyurl.com/Line-Cutter Is that the way it should be? I thought I'd check with you to ensure that was, in fact, what you meant, before actually welding the bits on my boat! If my sketch is a correct interpretation of your propeller line-cutter, then would it be even better to have two cutters: one above and another below the prop shaft? Although in your message you said that the blade was "touching the prop hub", I assume that for an engine on flexible mounts there would have to be some gap there? Also, how sharp does the cutting edge of the cutting blade need to be? I guess the answer to that would be "as sharp as possible"; but does it need to be ultra-sharp like a razor-blade, or would as sharp as a table-knife be OK? Many thanks Brent! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht __________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28901|28898|2012-09-12 15:41:55|Paul Wilson|Re: Propeller line-cutter.|Here is a video showing a variety of cutters in action. It looks like netting causes the most problems for the cutters. I wonder how much the cutters interfere with smooth water flow over the prop. They might cause some cavitation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JImiuemabIY&feature=related I have never had one but it is worth thinking about. I was a bonehead one day and got a jib sheet caught in the prop. I had to do a mid ocean swim to get it out. I was lucky it was calm. My friend had to get a line untangled mid ocean one day and the boat came down on his head in the rough water and almost knocked him out. He was solo and had to lay in the water for a long time before he was strong enough to climb out. Cheers, Paul On 12/09/2012 11:34 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > Make sure to leave room for a shaft zinc. There are cutters that attach to a zinc, sort of a serrated disk that rotates with the shaft. "Shaft Shark" is a name I see. It would seem to me that a stationary combined with a rotating blade would work the best. If you cut a little notch in the bottom of your sharpened triangle, then the second serrated cutter could rotate through the notch, and one way or the other, the rope would come up against a sharp edge that is rotating relative to it. Alternately, one could rotate the sharpened triangle 90 degrees so that the flat side was parallel to the shaft, sharpen the dull edge, so it works in forward and reverse, and have it just above the rotating serrated blade, so that the blades are in close proximity, but at 90 degrees to one another. If the rope wraps the prop and tries to turn with the prop, the stationary blade cuts it. If the prop catches the bitter end of a rope that is laying along the bottom of the hull (say a sheet line) and starts wrapping it stationary around the shaft, then the rotating cutter bites into it. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 06:34:40 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Propeller line-cutter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent ... > > > > I've been trying to get my head around the actual design/structure of your propeller line-cutter. > > > > You've mentioned it a couple of times, once back in 2007 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15311), where you said ... > > > > "I welded a 1 inch by 2 inch piece of 1/4 inch stainless to the sharp backside of the aperture , then bolted a sharp piece of stainless to it, at a 45 degree angle touching the prop hub. Any line that tries to wrap around the prop tightens around this blade." > > > > ... and again more recently some weeks ago (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/28751), where you said ... > > > > "Weld a vertical piece of 1/4 inch by 1 inch stainless flat bar with a couple of 1/4 inch holes in it, to the V in front of the prop, to bolt a line cutter blade to." > > > > Based on your written descriptions of the line-cutter, I've done this quick sketch ... > > > > http://tinyurl.com/Line-Cutter > > > > Is that the way it should be? I thought I'd check with you to ensure that was, in fact, what you meant, before actually welding the bits on my boat! > > > > If my sketch is a correct interpretation of your propeller line-cutter, then would it be even better to have two cutters: one above and another below the prop shaft? > > > > Although in your message you said that the blade was "touching the prop hub", I assume that for an engine on flexible mounts there would have to be some gap there? > > > > Also, how sharp does the cutting edge of the cutting blade need to be? I guess the answer to that would be "as sharp as possible"; but does it need to be ultra-sharp like a razor-blade, or would as sharp as a table-knife be OK? > > > > Many thanks Brent! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 28902|28898|2012-09-12 20:57:36|Matt Malone|Re: Propeller line-cutter.|I love Youtube videos. Those tests were really impressive. I never imagined that the less aggressive-looking serrated disks generally did at least as well, if not better than the scissor types. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:39:37 +1200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Propeller line-cutter. Here is a video showing a variety of cutters in action. It looks like netting causes the most problems for the cutters. I wonder how much the cutters interfere with smooth water flow over the prop. They might cause some cavitation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JImiuemabIY&feature=related I have never had one but it is worth thinking about. I was a bonehead one day and got a jib sheet caught in the prop. I had to do a mid ocean swim to get it out. I was lucky it was calm. My friend had to get a line untangled mid ocean one day and the boat came down on his head in the rough water and almost knocked him out. He was solo and had to lay in the water for a long time before he was strong enough to climb out. Cheers, Paul On 12/09/2012 11:34 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > Make sure to leave room for a shaft zinc. There are cutters that attach to a zinc, sort of a serrated disk that rotates with the shaft. "Shaft Shark" is a name I see. It would seem to me that a stationary combined with a rotating blade would work the best. If you cut a little notch in the bottom of your sharpened triangle, then the second serrated cutter could rotate through the notch, and one way or the other, the rope would come up against a sharp edge that is rotating relative to it. Alternately, one could rotate the sharpened triangle 90 degrees so that the flat side was parallel to the shaft, sharpen the dull edge, so it works in forward and reverse, and have it just above the rotating serrated blade, so that the blades are in close proximity, but at 90 degrees to one another. If the rope wraps the prop and tries to turn with the prop, the stationary blade cuts it. If the prop catches the bitter end of a rope that is laying along the bottom of the hull (say a sheet line) and starts wrapping it stationary around the shaft, then the rotating cutter bites into it. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: kimdxx@... > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 06:34:40 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Propeller line-cutter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent ... > > > > I've been trying to get my head around the actual design/structure of your propeller line-cutter. > > > > You've mentioned it a couple of times, once back in 2007 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15311), where you said ... > > > > "I welded a 1 inch by 2 inch piece of 1/4 inch stainless to the sharp backside of the aperture , then bolted a sharp piece of stainless to it, at a 45 degree angle touching the prop hub. Any line that tries to wrap around the prop tightens around this blade." > > > > ... and again more recently some weeks ago (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/28751), where you said ... > > > > "Weld a vertical piece of 1/4 inch by 1 inch stainless flat bar with a couple of 1/4 inch holes in it, to the V in front of the prop, to bolt a line cutter blade to." > > > > Based on your written descriptions of the line-cutter, I've done this quick sketch ... > > > > http://tinyurl.com/Line-Cutter > > > > Is that the way it should be? I thought I'd check with you to ensure that was, in fact, what you meant, before actually welding the bits on my boat! > > > > If my sketch is a correct interpretation of your propeller line-cutter, then would it be even better to have two cutters: one above and another below the prop shaft? > > > > Although in your message you said that the blade was "touching the prop hub", I assume that for an engine on flexible mounts there would have to be some gap there? > > > > Also, how sharp does the cutting edge of the cutting blade need to be? I guess the answer to that would be "as sharp as possible"; but does it need to be ultra-sharp like a razor-blade, or would as sharp as a table-knife be OK? > > > > Many thanks Brent! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28903|28898|2012-09-13 06:27:44|Kim|Re: Propeller line-cutter.|Interesting video, Paul. And yes, Matt, it is curious that the more "passive" versions seemed to still work OK. Maybe Brent's type is somewhere between the two. This is a "group test" of various cutters that was published by "Sailing Today" in 2000 (PDF file): http://tinyurl.com/Line-Cutters-Test Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I love Youtube videos. Those tests were really impressive. I never imagined that the less aggressive-looking serrated disks generally did at least as well, if not better than the scissor types. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:39:37 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Propeller line-cutter. > > Here is a video showing a variety of cutters in action. It looks like netting causes the most problems for the cutters. I wonder how much the cutters interfere with smooth water flow over the prop. They might cause some cavitation. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JImiuemabIY&feature=related > > I have never had one but it is worth thinking about. I was a bonehead one day and got a jib sheet caught in the prop. I had to do a mid ocean swim to get it out. I was lucky it was calm. My friend had to get a line untangled mid ocean one day and the boat came down on his head in the rough water and almost knocked him out. He was solo and had to lay in the water for a long time before he was strong enough to climb out. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 12/09/2012 11:34 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > Make sure to leave room for a shaft zinc. There are cutters that attach to a zinc, sort of a serrated disk that rotates with the shaft. "Shaft Shark" is a name I see. It would seem to me that a stationary combined with a rotating blade would work the best. If you cut a little notch in the bottom of your sharpened triangle, then the second serrated cutter could rotate through the notch, and one way or the other, the rope would come up against a sharp edge that is rotating relative to it. Alternately, one could rotate the sharpened triangle 90 degrees so that the flat side was parallel to the shaft, sharpen the dull edge, so it works in forward and reverse, and have it just above the rotating serrated blade, so that the blades are in close proximity, but at 90 degrees to one another. If the rope wraps the prop and tries to turn with the prop, the stationary blade cuts it. If the prop catches the bitter end of a rope that is laying along the bottom of the hull (say a sheet line) and starts wrapping it stationary around the shaft, then the rotating cutter bites into it. > > > Matt > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > Hi Brent ... > > I've been trying to get my head around the actual design/structure of your propeller line-cutter. > > You've mentioned it a couple of times, once back in 2007 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15311), where you said ... > > "I welded a 1 inch by 2 inch piece of 1/4 inch stainless to the sharp backside of the aperture , then bolted a sharp piece of stainless to it, at a 45 degree angle touching the prop hub. Any line that tries to wrap around the prop tightens around this blade." > > ... and again more recently some weeks ago (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/28751), where you said ... > > "Weld a vertical piece of 1/4 inch by 1 inch stainless flat bar with a couple of 1/4 inch holes in it, to the V in front of the prop, to bolt a line cutter blade to." > > Based on your written descriptions of the line-cutter, I've done this quick sketch ... > > http://tinyurl.com/Line-Cutter > > Is that the way it should be? I thought I'd check with you to ensure that was, in fact, what you meant, before actually welding the bits on my boat! > > If my sketch is a correct interpretation of your propeller line-cutter, then would it be even better to have two cutters: one above and another below the prop shaft? > > Although in your message you said that the blade was "touching the prop hub", I assume that for an engine on flexible mounts there would have to be some gap there? > > Also, how sharp does the cutting edge of the cutting blade need to be? I guess the answer to that would be "as sharp as possible"; but does it need to be ultra-sharp like a razor-blade, or would as sharp as a table-knife be OK? > > Many thanks Brent! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > ______________________________________________________________ | 28904|28898|2012-09-13 07:32:57|Matt Malone|Re: Propeller line-cutter.|Again, very interesting. "Of course, cutters will not be able to cope with every piece of flotsam andjetsam, and yachtsman shouldn�t be led into a false sense of security. Many fishermen, for instance, now use wire cable for their lobster pots." I worry a bit with the scissor type ones, that if they bite into something they cannot cut, they may bring the shaft to a sudden stop, possibly breaking or twisting something a bit. Without a cutter, when something does wrap, it seems the prop takes 1/2 or a full turn to go from full speed to stopped -- less impact torque. The discs at least seem to behave the same in that regard. The one dull disk that did not seem to perform well at all, seem to suggest that "really sharp" is the answer to the question, how sharp should Brent's triangle cutter be. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kimdxx@... Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:27:39 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Propeller line-cutter. Interesting video, Paul. And yes, Matt, it is curious that the more "passive" versions seemed to still work OK. Maybe Brent's type is somewhere between the two. This is a "group test" of various cutters that was published by "Sailing Today" in 2000 (PDF file): http://tinyurl.com/Line-Cutters-Test Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > I love Youtube videos. Those tests were really impressive. I never imagined that the less aggressive-looking serrated disks generally did at least as well, if not better than the scissor types. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:39:37 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Propeller line-cutter. > > Here is a video showing a variety of cutters in action. It looks like netting causes the most problems for the cutters. I wonder how much the cutters interfere with smooth water flow over the prop. They might cause some cavitation. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JImiuemabIY&feature=related > > I have never had one but it is worth thinking about. I was a bonehead one day and got a jib sheet caught in the prop. I had to do a mid ocean swim to get it out. I was lucky it was calm. My friend had to get a line untangled mid ocean one day and the boat came down on his head in the rough water and almost knocked him out. He was solo and had to lay in the water for a long time before he was strong enough to climb out. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 12/09/2012 11:34 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > Make sure to leave room for a shaft zinc. There are cutters that attach to a zinc, sort of a serrated disk that rotates with the shaft. "Shaft Shark" is a name I see. It would seem to me that a stationary combined with a rotating blade would work the best. If you cut a little notch in the bottom of your sharpened triangle, then the second serrated cutter could rotate through the notch, and one way or the other, the rope would come up against a sharp edge that is rotating relative to it. Alternately, one could rotate the sharpened triangle 90 degrees so that the flat side was parallel to the shaft, sharpen the dull edge, so it works in forward and reverse, and have it just above the rotating serrated blade, so that the blades are in close proximity, but at 90 degrees to one another. If the rope wraps the prop and tries to turn with the prop, the stationary blade cuts it. If the prop catches the bitter end of a rope that is laying along the bottom of the hull (say a sheet line) and starts wrapping it stationary around the shaft, then the rotating cutter bites into it. > > > Matt > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > Hi Brent ... > > I've been trying to get my head around the actual design/structure of your propeller line-cutter. > > You've mentioned it a couple of times, once back in 2007 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15311), where you said ... > > "I welded a 1 inch by 2 inch piece of 1/4 inch stainless to the sharp backside of the aperture , then bolted a sharp piece of stainless to it, at a 45 degree angle touching the prop hub. Any line that tries to wrap around the prop tightens around this blade." > > ... and again more recently some weeks ago (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/28751), where you said ... > > "Weld a vertical piece of 1/4 inch by 1 inch stainless flat bar with a couple of 1/4 inch holes in it, to the V in front of the prop, to bolt a line cutter blade to." > > Based on your written descriptions of the line-cutter, I've done this quick sketch ... > > http://tinyurl.com/Line-Cutter > > Is that the way it should be? I thought I'd check with you to ensure that was, in fact, what you meant, before actually welding the bits on my boat! > > If my sketch is a correct interpretation of your propeller line-cutter, then would it be even better to have two cutters: one above and another below the prop shaft? > > Although in your message you said that the blade was "touching the prop hub", I assume that for an engine on flexible mounts there would have to be some gap there? > > Also, how sharp does the cutting edge of the cutting blade need to be? I guess the answer to that would be "as sharp as possible"; but does it need to be ultra-sharp like a razor-blade, or would as sharp as a table-knife be OK? > > Many thanks Brent! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > __________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28905|28905|2012-09-14 10:38:46|q243w5|brent blocks|hi, what grade of aluminum should be used to fabricate the blocks depicted in Brent's book. thanks robin| 28906|28905|2012-09-14 18:18:54|brentswain38|Re: brent blocks|Any bendable aluminium will work, but if it comes from scrapyards near where boats are built, it will be 5083, 5086, or 5052.Some, used on tanker trucks, can be too hard to bend without breaking.Try bend a piece first. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "q243w5" wrote: > > hi, what grade of aluminum should be used to fabricate the blocks depicted in Brent's book. thanks robin > | 28907|28875|2012-09-14 18:28:30|brentswain38|Re: Boarding in a storm|This makes a good arguement for leaving a rope ladder or scrambling net overboard at all times in any such open anchorage. We lose several people a year in BC, from falling overboard and being unable to climb back out.It was someone falling overboard between Comox and Powell River BC, in a very similar boat (imitation cement boat)when the wife was unable to get him aboard such huge freeboard(the guy drowned) , which lead to reboarding devices becomming mandatory in Canada. The biggest seas you will ever find in these waters, in any conditions, is 9 ft. I weld rungs on the transom to enable reboarding with the boarding ladder up, and often use them when, I have forgotten to lower the ladder. Evan never puts them on. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > In Canada, a reboarding device is mandatory , a good idea anytime. Around 7 people a year are lost overboard , mostly from boats tied to a dock, with alcohol involved. They are starting to put them on docks as well. A simpler solution on docks is to nail a piece of old jib sheet in a loop,low enough to get a foot in, every 50 feet or so. That would be super cheap, and only take a few minutes to do a whole marina. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > I always tought ladders were mandatory on boats. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: m_j_malone@ > > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 12:06:30 -0400 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M6gMDlTTN6A > > > > > > > > Freeboard never looks so gigantic until you have failed to climb it once and you find yourself back in the water. Fatigue and cold water take effect quickly. Been there. > > > > > > > > While that is enough of a storm to say it is not calm water, that is not much of a storm, should one consider all the other ways in which one might end up in the water and in need of reboarding. Freeboard never looks so gigantic until you have failed to climb it once and you find yourself back in the water. Fatigue and cold water take effect quickly. Been there. We need a fool-proof first time effective reboarding method. And we are not all in Olympic rings athlete condition, and may be injured before entering the water or as we attempt to climb out, so, consider the gear carefully. Safety lines and attaching to keep us in, proper life jackets (like they had), NOT personal floatation devices (PFDs) incase you get thrown out, perhaps injured. > > > > > > > > And for a boat like this, and for orgamis in general, one might consider welding even a couple of steps or foot-holds to the side of it, or having some form of from-the-water-deployable reboarding device.... a rope one can pull hard on to deploy a ladder, or something. I would want to give careful thought to slipping, entangling and the device becoming more of a hazard than a help. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: mdemers2005@ > > > > > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 11:26:26 -0400 > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > > > > > > > > dont try that if you are not strong enough to pull yourself with your arms! > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: akenai@ > > > > > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 06:43:22 -0700 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boarding in a storm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 28908|28898|2012-09-14 18:40:24|brentswain38|Re: Propeller line-cutter.|Yes, your drawing has it right, but the point of the blade should touch the front of the prop hub, not the side. That way, if the engine moves foreward on the rubber mounts ,the blade will machine just enough off it to stop any line from getting inside, when motoring at cruising speed.There is no shortage of cooling and lubrication for that underwater machining job. The sharper the better. If you sharpen the blade only on the side the prop blade is turning towards, you get a sharper edge, which the line will be pulled onto. Two blades, top and bottom, may be better. I just saw a boat dried out, on which moving the zinc foreward will leave more room behiund it for the blade. I've never bothered with a shaft zinc, and have had no problem with lack of one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Brent ... > > I've been trying to get my head around the actual design/structure of your propeller line-cutter. > > You've mentioned it a couple of times, once back in 2007 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15311), where you said ... > > "I welded a 1 inch by 2 inch piece of 1/4 inch stainless to the sharp backside of the aperture , then bolted a sharp piece of stainless to it, at a 45 degree angle touching the prop hub. Any line that tries to wrap around the prop tightens around this blade." > > ... and again more recently some weeks ago (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/28751), where you said ... > > "Weld a vertical piece of 1/4 inch by 1 inch stainless flat bar with a couple of 1/4 inch holes in it, to the V in front of the prop, to bolt a line cutter blade to." > > Based on your written descriptions of the line-cutter, I've done this quick sketch ... > > http://tinyurl.com/Line-Cutter > > Is that the way it should be? I thought I'd check with you to ensure that was, in fact, what you meant, before actually welding the bits on my boat! > > If my sketch is a correct interpretation of your propeller line-cutter, then would it be even better to have two cutters: one above and another below the prop shaft? > > Although in your message you said that the blade was "touching the prop hub", I assume that for an engine on flexible mounts there would have to be some gap there? > > Also, how sharp does the cutting edge of the cutting blade need to be? I guess the answer to that would be "as sharp as possible"; but does it need to be ultra-sharp like a razor-blade, or would as sharp as a table-knife be OK? > > Many thanks Brent! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > ______________________________________________________________ > | 28909|28898|2012-09-14 18:50:24|brentswain38|Re: Propeller line-cutter.|By looking at these videos, it appears my blade would do better against nets than the disc types, and is far simpler and cheaper than the spurs types, with no moving parts. Cheaper too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Here is a video showing a variety of cutters in action. It looks like > netting causes the most problems for the cutters. I wonder how much the > cutters interfere with smooth water flow over the prop. They might cause > some cavitation. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JImiuemabIY&feature=related > > I have never had one but it is worth thinking about. I was a bonehead > one day and got a jib sheet caught in the prop. I had to do a mid > ocean swim to get it out. I was lucky it was calm. My friend had to > get a line untangled mid ocean one day and the boat came down on his > head in the rough water and almost knocked him out. He was solo and had > to lay in the water for a long time before he was strong enough to climb > out. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 12/09/2012 11:34 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Make sure to leave room for a shaft zinc. There are cutters that attach to a zinc, sort of a serrated disk that rotates with the shaft. "Shaft Shark" is a name I see. It would seem to me that a stationary combined with a rotating blade would work the best. If you cut a little notch in the bottom of your sharpened triangle, then the second serrated cutter could rotate through the notch, and one way or the other, the rope would come up against a sharp edge that is rotating relative to it. Alternately, one could rotate the sharpened triangle 90 degrees so that the flat side was parallel to the shaft, sharpen the dull edge, so it works in forward and reverse, and have it just above the rotating serrated blade, so that the blades are in close proximity, but at 90 degrees to one another. If the rope wraps the prop and tries to turn with the prop, the stationary blade cuts it. If the prop catches the bitter end of a rope that is laying along the bottom of the hull (say a sheet line) and starts wrapping it stationary around the shaft, then the rotating cutter bites into it. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: kimdxx@... > > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 06:34:40 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Propeller line-cutter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent ... > > > > > > > > I've been trying to get my head around the actual design/structure of your propeller line-cutter. > > > > > > > > You've mentioned it a couple of times, once back in 2007 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15311), where you said ... > > > > > > > > "I welded a 1 inch by 2 inch piece of 1/4 inch stainless to the sharp backside of the aperture , then bolted a sharp piece of stainless to it, at a 45 degree angle touching the prop hub. Any line that tries to wrap around the prop tightens around this blade." > > > > > > > > ... and again more recently some weeks ago (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/28751), where you said ... > > > > > > > > "Weld a vertical piece of 1/4 inch by 1 inch stainless flat bar with a couple of 1/4 inch holes in it, to the V in front of the prop, to bolt a line cutter blade to." > > > > > > > > Based on your written descriptions of the line-cutter, I've done this quick sketch ... > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/Line-Cutter > > > > > > > > Is that the way it should be? I thought I'd check with you to ensure that was, in fact, what you meant, before actually welding the bits on my boat! > > > > > > > > If my sketch is a correct interpretation of your propeller line-cutter, then would it be even better to have two cutters: one above and another below the prop shaft? > > > > > > > > Although in your message you said that the blade was "touching the prop hub", I assume that for an engine on flexible mounts there would have to be some gap there? > > > > > > > > Also, how sharp does the cutting edge of the cutting blade need to be? I guess the answer to that would be "as sharp as possible"; but does it need to be ultra-sharp like a razor-blade, or would as sharp as a table-knife be OK? > > > > > > > > Many thanks Brent! > > > > > > > > Cheers ... > > > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 28910|26545|2012-09-15 13:30:15|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|My (relatively cheap) inverter welder failed... And as always, after 90 days return policy expired... It has 2 fans and both are not working anymore (even it have separate connectors - more likely bad fan driver on a board). So, it overheats in less than in 1 minute and become useless. I opened the case and and took a look inside... What a flimsy design! I wonder how it was able to last for several month. Lose slide power connectors, lot of connectors which suppose to be used in PC boards, fasteners which are too_long/do_not_fit, wires touching radiators, etc, etc, etc. This unit has 3 years warranty. But... I called to a retailer which sold this unit to inquire about warranty repair. Customer service representative had a hard time to find correct phone number. First it was software company, then company in Taiwan, finally they got correct number for distributor in US. I called manufacturer's distributor... They asked me to send unit for repair and pay for both way shipping and told me that turn-around time will be 2-3 weeks... I have to pay for shipping to fix this junk??? Really??? And I will be without welder for 3 weeks??? Because I bought this welder from big retailer I was able just to drop it back to the store because of "not satisfied with warranty policy" and get a credit for returned item to buy something else. SO... If you buy welder, BE SURE YOU CAN FIX IT LOCALLY. And check the warranty information - usually "cheap Chinese units" will require a customer to pay for shipping to repair it. Unfortunately, there is only one company which good at fixing welders locally - Miller. And Miller products are expensive. Lincoln requires to bring/send welder to "authorized" repair shop, which may (or may not) be close to you.| 28911|26545|2012-09-15 14:35:45|Aaron|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|What brand did you have? ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 9:30 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)   My (relatively cheap) inverter welder failed... And as always, after 90 days return policy expired... It has 2 fans and both are not working anymore (even it have separate connectors - more likely bad fan driver on a board). So, it overheats in less than in 1 minute and become useless. I opened the case and and took a look inside... What a flimsy design! I wonder how it was able to last for several month. Lose slide power connectors, lot of connectors which suppose to be used in PC boards, fasteners which are too_long/do_not_fit, wires touching radiators, etc, etc, etc. This unit has 3 years warranty. But... I called to a retailer which sold this unit to inquire about warranty repair. Customer service representative had a hard time to find correct phone number. First it was software company, then company in Taiwan, finally they got correct number for distributor in US. I called manufacturer's distributor... They asked me to send unit for repair and pay for both way shipping and told me that turn-around time will be 2-3 weeks... I have to pay for shipping to fix this junk??? Really??? And I will be without welder for 3 weeks??? Because I bought this welder from big retailer I was able just to drop it back to the store because of "not satisfied with warranty policy" and get a credit for returned item to buy something else. SO... If you buy welder, BE SURE YOU CAN FIX IT LOCALLY. And check the warranty information - usually "cheap Chinese units" will require a customer to pay for shipping to repair it. Unfortunately, there is only one company which good at fixing welders locally - Miller. And Miller products are expensive. Lincoln requires to bring/send welder to "authorized" repair shop, which may (or may not) be close to you. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28912|26545|2012-09-15 15:06:34|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|This one: Smarter Tools 200-Amp IGBT Inverter ARC Welder http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-203132721/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=welder+smarter+tools&storeId=10051 But I got it for about $210 during promotional price. Now the price is not as good. I glad it is gone now. No time to make DIY welder from it, especially if you can get used "old school" AC welder for about $100-150 ;) 240V AC welder just will take twice input current compare to inverter (50A vs 25-30A) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > What brand did you have? > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 9:30 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) > > > >   > > My (relatively cheap) inverter welder failed... And as always, after 90 days return policy expired... > | 28913|26545|2012-09-15 15:16:11|Mark Hamill|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Wild: Some credit card companies will double the warranty if bought on their card but there are exclusions and tools, electronics and car parts may be some of them. Sorry to hear about this--but appreciate the information. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28914|26545|2012-09-15 16:11:03|James Pronk|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Hey Wild, I looked at the same type of welder about 4 years ago. I could buy them for $40 or $60 a piece from the plant in China but I had to buy a lot of 50 or 100 pieces. I ran it buy my welding class, we almost went for it. $100 each student and you would get 2 welders and we would still have spares for repairs. Two many people had cold feet in the end. James  --- On Sat, 9/15/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, September 15, 2012, 3:06 PM   This one: Smarter Tools 200-Amp IGBT Inverter ARC Welder http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-203132721/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=welder+smarter+tools&storeId=10051 But I got it for about $210 during promotional price. Now the price is not as good. I glad it is gone now. No time to make DIY welder from it, especially if you can get used "old school" AC welder for about $100-150 ;) 240V AC welder just will take twice input current compare to inverter (50A vs 25-30A) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > What brand did you have? > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 9:30 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) > > > >   > > My (relatively cheap) inverter welder failed... And as always, after 90 days return policy expired... > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28915|26545|2012-09-15 16:24:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I think those welders are mass produced in several factories and sold under several different names. I will often pull things apart when I get them and have a look for shoddy soldering, wire tying, or chafing. It is surprising what you find since the workers are paid by quantity and not quality. That extra half second with the soldering iron to get a good flowed joint may make the difference between them making a profit or not. This goes for most items that aren't machine produced, and goes for items made anywhere, not just China. Paul On 16/09/2012 8:11 a.m., James Pronk wrote: > > Hey Wild, > I looked at the same type of welder about 4 years ago. I could buy > them for $40 or $60 a piece from the plant in China but I had to buy a > lot of 50 or 100 pieces. I ran it buy my welding class, we almost went > for it. $100 each student and you would get 2 welders and we would > still have spares for repairs. Two many people had cold feet in the end. > James > > --- On Sat, 9/15/12, wild_explorer > wrote: > > From: wild_explorer > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding > Equipment) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Saturday, September 15, 2012, 3:06 PM > > > > This one: > > Smarter Tools 200-Amp IGBT Inverter ARC Welder > > http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-203132721/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=welder+smarter+tools&storeId=10051 > > But I got it for about $210 during promotional price. Now the price is > not as good. I glad it is gone now. No time to make DIY welder from > it, especially if you can get used "old school" AC welder for about > $100-150 ;) 240V AC welder just will take twice input current compare > to inverter (50A vs 25-30A) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Aaron wrote: > > > > What brand did you have? > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: wild_explorer > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 9:30 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing > Welding Equipment) > > > > > > > >  > > > > My (relatively cheap) inverter welder failed... And as always, after > 90 days return policy expired... > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 28916|26545|2012-09-15 17:01:47|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I agree with this. It is NOT where it is made, but it is more about quality control. The same factory have different QA for different customers (and final price of the unit is different). Better quality, higher price. But if the design is the same, there is a little room for "longevity" of the unit before it fails if you use it.... I was wondering before, how could they sell this welder for $200 with a profit if 200A IGBT alone cost about $100? Now I know ;))) I am going for a buzz-box now. Will see what is the difference to weld with it compare to an inverter. I already feel the difference in weight, but I opened it and there is only few parts there - transformer, power switch, current switch and fan. I like it ;) I think, AC welder could be used later as shore power transformer (after some DIY). It just need to re-wind the transformer to make it able to connect to 110V (US) or 220V (Europe) shore power. Or use it for Europe without changing primary and rewind secondary (for 110/115V). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I think those welders are mass produced in several factories and sold > under several different names. I will often pull things apart when I > get them and have a look for shoddy soldering, wire tying, or chafing. > It is surprising what you find since the workers are paid by quantity > and not quality. That extra half second with the soldering iron to get > a good flowed joint may make the difference between them making a profit > or not. This goes for most items that aren't machine produced, and > goes for items made anywhere, not just China. > > Paul | 28917|26545|2012-09-16 09:29:07|Matt Malone|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|FYI, last I heard Lincoln's North American plant was still paying its employees on a piece-work basis -- how many units did they produce that passed inspection. I mention this as an interesting factoid, not to start a discussion about labour practices. One would therefore expect to see better work on the inside. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 21:01:45 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment) I agree with this. It is NOT where it is made, but it is more about quality control. The same factory have different QA for different customers (and final price of the unit is different). Better quality, higher price. But if the design is the same, there is a little room for "longevity" of the unit before it fails if you use it.... I was wondering before, how could they sell this welder for $200 with a profit if 200A IGBT alone cost about $100? Now I know ;))) I am going for a buzz-box now. Will see what is the difference to weld with it compare to an inverter. I already feel the difference in weight, but I opened it and there is only few parts there - transformer, power switch, current switch and fan. I like it ;) I think, AC welder could be used later as shore power transformer (after some DIY). It just need to re-wind the transformer to make it able to connect to 110V (US) or 220V (Europe) shore power. Or use it for Europe without changing primary and rewind secondary (for 110/115V). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I think those welders are mass produced in several factories and sold > under several different names. I will often pull things apart when I > get them and have a look for shoddy soldering, wire tying, or chafing. > It is surprising what you find since the workers are paid by quantity > and not quality. That extra half second with the soldering iron to get > a good flowed joint may make the difference between them making a profit > or not. This goes for most items that aren't machine produced, and > goes for items made anywhere, not just China. > > Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28918|26545|2012-09-16 13:31:50|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Well, there is no magic involved in setting a price for the product. The same Lincoln welder AC225 (buzz-box) have different price for residential and industrial use (same welder model) - $300 from HD, $540 from Lincoln. And this unit has very few parts. The difference is how it is intended to be used. Sit in a garage or used every day. It will be different probability of the failure... And it is reflected in final price ;) I gave a try to an inverter just because it was cheaper than Lincoln buzz-box from the same retailer ;)) HD (means manufacturer) jacked up the price for that inverter 50% from initial price. Too many returns??? ;) Good industrial inverter (Lincoln or Miller) cost about $1000-2000. Right now, Miller, Lincoln, ThermalArc are lowering the prices for Multi-Process welding units (inverters) because of competition. If you buy brand-name inverter with 3 year warranty, this means that competitor will not be able sell its product to you for another 3 years ;)) For example new Stick/MIG/TIG unit with similar specs (prices from local welding supply store): ThermalArc Fabricator 211i - $1125 Miller MultiMatic 200 - $1800 The difference in the price reflects how easy you can find a place to repair it locally. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > FYI, last I heard Lincoln's North American plant was still paying its employees on a piece-work basis -- how many units did they produce that passed inspection. I mention this as an interesting factoid, not to start a discussion about labour practices. One would therefore expect to see better work on the inside. > > Matt > | 28919|26545|2012-09-16 15:35:39|Paul Thompson|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|Wild, I have a ThermalArc inverter welder that I bought in 1998. It cost just over a grand and has been in regular use since it was purchased. It goes with me when I voyage as it takes no real room to stow and while I do not have a source that can power it on board, it's never been a problem to find some one who did have. Strangely enough I've never had to do any repairs on my boat (while cruising) but I've earned a lot of money over the years with it by being able to work on other peoples boats. I regard the money that I spent on this high quality product to have been well spent. Should I need to replace it, I will unhesitatingly go and buy another ThermalArc and pay what it costs. It welds much better than a buzz box, yes even a good one like Lincolns, its easy to move around and a power source can nearly always be found. It also does not care what voltage it is plugged into, anything from 100 to 250 and it just works. Whatever you do, buy a good reliable welder. If you are building or maintaining a steel boat, an unreliable welder sucks big time. Paul Thompson On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 5:31 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > Well, there is no magic involved in setting a price for the product. The same Lincoln welder AC225 (buzz-box) have different price for residential and industrial use (same welder model) - $300 from HD, $540 from Lincoln. And this unit has very few parts. The difference is how it is intended to be used. Sit in a garage or used every day. It will be different probability of the failure... And it is reflected in final price ;) > > I gave a try to an inverter just because it was cheaper than Lincoln buzz-box from the same retailer ;)) > > HD (means manufacturer) jacked up the price for that inverter 50% from initial price. Too many returns??? ;) Good industrial inverter (Lincoln or Miller) cost about $1000-2000. > > Right now, Miller, Lincoln, ThermalArc are lowering the prices for Multi-Process welding units (inverters) because of competition. If you buy brand-name inverter with 3 year warranty, this means that competitor will not be able sell its product to you for another 3 years ;)) > > For example new Stick/MIG/TIG unit with similar specs (prices from local welding supply store): > > ThermalArc Fabricator 211i - $1125 > Miller MultiMatic 200 - $1800 > > The difference in the price reflects how easy you can find a place to repair it locally. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: >> >> >> >> FYI, last I heard Lincoln's North American plant was still paying its employees on a piece-work basis -- how many units did they produce that passed inspection. I mention this as an interesting factoid, not to start a discussion about labour practices. One would therefore expect to see better work on the inside. >> >> Matt | 28920|26545|2012-09-16 17:35:13|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I've never felt he need for anything more than a cheap, off the shelf 225 amp buzzbox, from a retailer, in building dozens of boats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Well, there is no magic involved in setting a price for the product. The same Lincoln welder AC225 (buzz-box) have different price for residential and industrial use (same welder model) - $300 from HD, $540 from Lincoln. And this unit has very few parts. The difference is how it is intended to be used. Sit in a garage or used every day. It will be different probability of the failure... And it is reflected in final price ;) > > I gave a try to an inverter just because it was cheaper than Lincoln buzz-box from the same retailer ;)) > > HD (means manufacturer) jacked up the price for that inverter 50% from initial price. Too many returns??? ;) Good industrial inverter (Lincoln or Miller) cost about $1000-2000. > > Right now, Miller, Lincoln, ThermalArc are lowering the prices for Multi-Process welding units (inverters) because of competition. If you buy brand-name inverter with 3 year warranty, this means that competitor will not be able sell its product to you for another 3 years ;)) > > For example new Stick/MIG/TIG unit with similar specs (prices from local welding supply store): > > ThermalArc Fabricator 211i - $1125 > Miller MultiMatic 200 - $1800 > > The difference in the price reflects how easy you can find a place to repair it locally. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > FYI, last I heard Lincoln's North American plant was still paying its employees on a piece-work basis -- how many units did they produce that passed inspection. I mention this as an interesting factoid, not to start a discussion about labour practices. One would therefore expect to see better work on the inside. > > > > Matt > > > | 28921|28898|2012-09-16 17:39:47|brentswain38|Re: Propeller line-cutter.|Kim. You would want to extend the plate supporting the blade beyond the blade, to eliminate the chance of the rope getting between the top tip of the blade and the aperture. I tried the disc, but the blade worked better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Brent ... > > I've been trying to get my head around the actual design/structure of your propeller line-cutter. > > You've mentioned it a couple of times, once back in 2007 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15311), where you said ... > > "I welded a 1 inch by 2 inch piece of 1/4 inch stainless to the sharp backside of the aperture , then bolted a sharp piece of stainless to it, at a 45 degree angle touching the prop hub. Any line that tries to wrap around the prop tightens around this blade." > > ... and again more recently some weeks ago (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/28751), where you said ... > > "Weld a vertical piece of 1/4 inch by 1 inch stainless flat bar with a couple of 1/4 inch holes in it, to the V in front of the prop, to bolt a line cutter blade to." > > Based on your written descriptions of the line-cutter, I've done this quick sketch ... > > http://tinyurl.com/Line-Cutter > > Is that the way it should be? I thought I'd check with you to ensure that was, in fact, what you meant, before actually welding the bits on my boat! > > If my sketch is a correct interpretation of your propeller line-cutter, then would it be even better to have two cutters: one above and another below the prop shaft? > > Although in your message you said that the blade was "touching the prop hub", I assume that for an engine on flexible mounts there would have to be some gap there? > > Also, how sharp does the cutting edge of the cutting blade need to be? I guess the answer to that would be "as sharp as possible"; but does it need to be ultra-sharp like a razor-blade, or would as sharp as a table-knife be OK? > > Many thanks Brent! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > ______________________________________________________________ > | 28922|26545|2012-09-16 18:28:40|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I would say that old electronic units had better design and quality control than modern ones. They were designed to last. These days, electronic components are more reliable, but units designed to have "life span" because of using cheapest possible assembly. I talked to ThermalArc representative and he told me that control board now is sealed and unrepairable. And I will go for industrial inverter next time, even it is more expensive... But now, I need cheapest possible and reliable alternative to continue building my boat. If welds quality will be significantly different with AC welder, I will give second thought to inverter. I checked my electrodes, and it compatible with AC. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Wild, > > I have a ThermalArc inverter welder that I bought in 1998. It cost > just over a grand and has been in regular use since it was purchased. > It goes with me when I voyage as it takes no real room to stow and > while I do not have a source that can power it on board, it's never > been a problem to find some one who did have. Strangely enough I've > never had to do any repairs on my boat (while cruising) but I've > earned a lot of money over the years with it by being able to work on > other peoples boats. I regard the money that I spent on this high > quality product to have been well spent. Should I need to replace it, > I will unhesitatingly go and buy another ThermalArc and pay what it > costs. It welds much better than a buzz box, yes even a good one like > Lincolns, its easy to move around and a power source can nearly always > be found. It also does not care what voltage it is plugged into, > anything from 100 to 250 and it just works. Whatever you do, buy a > good reliable welder. If you are building or maintaining a steel boat, > an unreliable welder sucks big time. > > Paul Thompson > | 28923|26545|2012-09-16 18:33:55|Paul Wilson|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|The Lincoln employees are involved in a profit sharing scheme. If they turned out crap it would eventually hurt their paycheck. Lincoln is consistently called one of the best companies in the US in which to be employed. 60 Minutes did a story on them years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EftYWQOs_cU Cheers, Paul On 17/09/2012 1:29 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > FYI, last I heard Lincoln's North American plant was still paying its employees on a piece-work basis -- how many units did they produce that passed inspection. I mention this as an interesting factoid, not to start a discussion about labour practices. One would therefore expect to see better work on the inside. > > Matt | 28924|28905|2012-09-17 00:17:53|q243w5|Re: brent blocks|thanks Brent, we've made a couple of the blocks, the only bendable aluminum I could get was an industrial grade(3003H14} so I didn't know if corrosion and/or strength would be a problem....I'll post a photo of the blocks when I get a chance. robin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Any bendable aluminium will work, but if it comes from scrapyards near where boats are built, it will be 5083, 5086, or 5052.Some, used on tanker trucks, can be too hard to bend without breaking.Try bend a piece first. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "q243w5" wrote: > > > > hi, what grade of aluminum should be used to fabricate the blocks depicted in Brent's book. thanks robin > > > | 28925|28898|2012-09-17 02:56:57|Kim|Re: Propeller line-cutter.|Brent ... Many thanks for the additional notes in relation to your line-cutter. I'll implement everything as you've described. Your line cutter design is extraordinarily simple, and yet should work extremely well. Its cost and maintenance would be almost zero! Thanks again! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Kim. You would want to extend the plate supporting the blade beyond the blade, to eliminate the chance of the rope getting between the top tip of the blade and the aperture. > > I tried the disc, but the blade worked better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > By looking at these videos, it appears my blade would do better against nets than the disc types, and is far simpler and cheaper than the spurs types, with no moving parts. > > Cheaper too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes, your drawing has it right, but the point of the blade should touch the front of the prop hub, not the side. That way, if the engine moves foreward on the rubber mounts ,the blade will machine just enough off it to stop any line from getting inside, when motoring at cruising speed.There is no shortage of cooling and lubrication for that underwater machining job. > > The sharper the better. If you sharpen the blade only on the side the prop blade is turning towards, you get a sharper edge, which the line will be pulled onto. > > Two blades, top and bottom, may be better. > > I just saw a boat dried out, on which moving the zinc foreward will leave more room behiund it for the blade. I've never bothered with a shaft zinc, and have had no problem with lack of one. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent ... > > > > I've been trying to get my head around the actual design/structure of your propeller line-cutter. > > > > You've mentioned it a couple of times, once back in 2007 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15311), where you said ... > > > > "I welded a 1 inch by 2 inch piece of 1/4 inch stainless to the sharp backside of the aperture , then bolted a sharp piece of stainless to it, at a 45 degree angle touching the prop hub. Any line that tries to wrap around the prop tightens around this blade." > > > > ... and again more recently some weeks ago (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/28751), where you said ... > > > > "Weld a vertical piece of 1/4 inch by 1 inch stainless flat bar with a couple of 1/4 inch holes in it, to the V in front of the prop, to bolt a line cutter blade to." > > > > Based on your written descriptions of the line-cutter, I've done this quick sketch ... > > > > http://tinyurl.com/Line-Cutter > > > > Is that the way it should be? I thought I'd check with you to ensure that was, in fact, what you meant, before actually welding the bits on my boat! > > > > If my sketch is a correct interpretation of your propeller line-cutter, then would it be even better to have two cutters: one above and another below the prop shaft? > > > > Although in your message you said that the blade was "touching the prop hub", I assume that for an engine on flexible mounts there would have to be some gap there? > > > > Also, how sharp does the cutting edge of the cutting blade need to be? I guess the answer to that would be "as sharp as possible"; but does it need to be ultra-sharp like a razor-blade, or would as sharp as a table-knife be OK? > > > > Many thanks Brent! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > ______________________________________________________________ | 28926|26545|2012-09-17 19:42:09|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|I was welding with Lincoln AC225 buzz-box today. We did not have AC welder in our welding class (when I was taking it) and some people said you can feel "pulsating" when you welding... Well... I see no difference welding with AC compare to DC inverter so far. AC welder works just fine with E6013 and E7024 I was using today. I put some welds next to tack welds I did with DC inverter and I could not say which one was done with an inverter or with buzz box. They look identical. It took several tack welds to get used to buzz-box and set correct current for the electrode. It just need to keep current settings at the highest end of electrode's AC current range and keep the arc short. With short arc, electrode makes hissing sound and AC welder got quiet and does not make buzzing sound anymore. The weld is as good as with an inverter this way. P.S. Before starting to weld with NEW E6013, E7024 electrode, just ignite it on some special scrap plate maintaining long arc for couples of seconds. After it, electrode will not stick to work piece anymore - the tip will be covered by flux. Much easier to start/restart. I had problems to start electrode out of the box without frequently sticking it to the plate. This trick fixed the problem (same problem was with an inverter as well). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've never felt he need for anything more than a cheap, off the shelf 225 amp buzzbox, from a retailer, in building dozens of boats. > | 28927|26545|2012-09-18 08:09:59|Jonathan Stevens|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|When I was a lad, my then mentor used to just stick the electrode to the work or bench for a moment; when it started to smoke, off he would go welding. With electrodes from the box stored in less than ideal conditions, I do the same and they weld a treat. I'm talking 6013s here. I'm not sure whether it is good practice with a cellulose coated one like 6011. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28928|28894|2012-09-18 10:58:53|zethkinnett@ymail.com|Re: does brent swain have a website?|ordered guide from brent and dvd from alex. now just waiting on those. off to india for a while and then gonna get a set of plans for to 40 when i get back and try to find a place to build somewhere in austin. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Zeth ... > > Brent himself doesn't have a website. His contact details are in a text file called "PLANS ORDER INFORMATION -- BRENT SWAIN" which can be found in the FILES section of this group. That file tells you how to contact Brent by snail-mail, order his book & plans, etc. > > There is also Alex's very informative website at http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats/ (It was Alex who founded this Yahoo group.) Alex's 2-DVD video is excellent! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@" wrote: > > > > what is it. i cant seem to find one. if not is there a site about origami boats and one that has plans for sale etc? > > > | 28929|28905|2012-09-18 22:28:42|brentswain38|Re: brent blocks|As blocks are rarely submerged in sea water, I dont think corosion will be any problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "q243w5" wrote: > > thanks Brent, we've made a couple of the blocks, the only bendable aluminum I could get was an industrial grade(3003H14} so I didn't know if corrosion and/or strength would be a problem....I'll post a photo of the blocks when I get a chance. robin > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Any bendable aluminium will work, but if it comes from scrapyards near where boats are built, it will be 5083, 5086, or 5052.Some, used on tanker trucks, can be too hard to bend without breaking.Try bend a piece first. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "q243w5" wrote: > > > > > > hi, what grade of aluminum should be used to fabricate the blocks depicted in Brent's book. thanks robin > > > > > > | 28930|26545|2012-09-18 22:33:01|brentswain38|Re: Basic welding questions (Choosing Welding Equipment)|A loud buzzing sound sometimes means a screw loose inside. Take the cover off and look for the loose screw, Tighten it and the buzzing will stop. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was welding with Lincoln AC225 buzz-box today. We did not have AC welder in our welding class (when I was taking it) and some people said you can feel "pulsating" when you welding... > > Well... I see no difference welding with AC compare to DC inverter so far. AC welder works just fine with E6013 and E7024 I was using today. I put some welds next to tack welds I did with DC inverter and I could not say which one was done with an inverter or with buzz box. They look identical. > > It took several tack welds to get used to buzz-box and set correct current for the electrode. It just need to keep current settings at the highest end of electrode's AC current range and keep the arc short. With short arc, electrode makes hissing sound and AC welder got quiet and does not make buzzing sound anymore. The weld is as good as with an inverter this way. > > P.S. Before starting to weld with NEW E6013, E7024 electrode, just ignite it on some special scrap plate maintaining long arc for couples of seconds. After it, electrode will not stick to work piece anymore - the tip will be covered by flux. Much easier to start/restart. I had problems to start electrode out of the box without frequently sticking it to the plate. This trick fixed the problem (same problem was with an inverter as well). > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I've never felt he need for anything more than a cheap, off the shelf 225 amp buzzbox, from a retailer, in building dozens of boats. > > > | 28931|28931|2012-09-20 21:49:25|wild_explorer|Precision of origami hull - pulling half of the hull from the patter|I pulled and tacked half of the hull from the pattern. Now I have real-size half to compare to 3D model. I measured some key-distances (chine angle, bow-to-stern, stern-to-centerline, etc) to check how real half of the hull is compare to 3D model. The half of the hull is still pretty flexible at this stage, but it does not affect the measurements a lot. Long story short, distances and angle are in tolerances (+/-) 0.5-1% So... For the question about "How precise is origami hull?", I would say - very precise for a boat. Especially with such simple construction. What about comment "Every origami hull is different"? I think, it just depends how precise you cut the pattern from the plan and how carefully you fold it. If another half's pattern is exactly the same, you will get EXACTLY the same 3D shape for another half as for the first one. Which answers the question about "symmetry" of origami hull. If you carefully measure key-distances after pulling halves together, you will get the hull geometry VERY close to designed boat (or 3D model). Even taking into an account that there are some variations in cutting the pattern, final boat's hull cannot be significantly different from "designed boat".| 28933|28933|2012-09-22 19:42:54|brentswain38|Postal money orders|When you order books and plans by postal money order, please send only international money orders , not those internal ones, especially not US internal postal money orders. It says right on them that they can only be cashed in the US. In Canada they can be hard to get cashed. Thanks Brent| 28934|28931|2012-09-22 19:50:26|brentswain38|Re: Precision of origami hull - pulling half of the hull from the pa|Friends, who have worked on stock, production fibreglas boats, tell me that they often vary by up to three inches from side to side. If you take a bulkhead which is a perfect fit on one side, and try it on the opposite side , it will often be up to three inches out. I've worked on a production fibreglas fishboat which was at least that far out. A friend's stock fibreglass boat has a difference in cabinside tumblehome of two inches from one side to the other. Origami boats , even roughly built ones, are far more precise. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I pulled and tacked half of the hull from the pattern. Now I have real-size half to compare to 3D model. I measured some key-distances (chine angle, bow-to-stern, stern-to-centerline, etc) to check how real half of the hull is compare to 3D model. > > The half of the hull is still pretty flexible at this stage, but it does not affect the measurements a lot. Long story short, distances and angle are in tolerances (+/-) 0.5-1% > > So... For the question about "How precise is origami hull?", I would say - very precise for a boat. Especially with such simple construction. > > What about comment "Every origami hull is different"? I think, it just depends how precise you cut the pattern from the plan and how carefully you fold it. m one side tothe toher. If another half's pattern is exactly the same, you will get EXACTLY the same 3D shape for another half as for the first one. Which answers the question about "symmetry" of origami hull. > > If you carefully measure key-distances after pulling halves together, you will get the hull geometry VERY close to designed boat (or 3D model). > > Even taking into an account that there are some variations in cutting the pattern, final boat's hull cannot be significantly different from "designed boat". > | 28935|28931|2012-09-22 20:06:03|Chris Salayka|Re: Precision of origami hull - pulling half of the hull from the pa|________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 4:50:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Precision of origami hull - pulling half of the hull from the pattern   Friends, who have worked on stock, production fibreglas boats, tell me that they often vary by up to three inches from side to side. If you take a bulkhead which is a perfect fit on one side, and try it on the opposite side , it will often be up to three inches out. I've worked on a production fibreglas fishboat which was at least that far out. A friend's stock fibreglass boat has a difference in cabinside tumblehome of two inches from one side to the other. Origami boats , even roughly built ones, are far more precise. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I pulled and tacked half of the hull from the pattern. Now I have real-size half to compare to 3D model. I measured some key-distances (chine angle, bow-to-stern, stern-to-centerline, etc) to check how real half of the hull is compare to 3D model. > > The half of the hull is still pretty flexible at this stage, but it does not affect the measurements a lot. Long story short, distances and angle are in tolerances (+/-) 0.5-1% > > So... For the question about "How precise is origami hull?", I would say - very precise for a boat. Especially with such simple construction. > > What about comment "Every origami hull is different"? I think, it just depends how precise you cut the pattern from the plan and how carefully you fold it. m one side tothe toher. If another half's pattern is exactly the same, you will get EXACTLY the same 3D shape for another half as for the first one. Which answers the question about "symmetry" of origami hull. > > If you carefully measure key-distances after pulling halves together, you will get the hull geometry VERY close to designed boat (or 3D model). > > Even taking into an account that there are some variations in cutting the pattern, final boat's hull cannot be significantly different from "designed boat". > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28936|28931|2012-09-22 20:07:34|John Fisher|Re: Precision of origami hull - pulling half of the hull from the pa|When my uncle has his boat measured for a rating they asked him if he had measured the same side twice. I guess it is common to have boats not be symmetrical. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 22, 2012, at 7:50 PM, "brentswain38" wrote: > Friends, who have worked on stock, production fibreglas boats, tell me that they often vary by up to three inches from side to side. If you take a bulkhead which is a perfect fit on one side, and try it on the opposite side , it will often be up to three inches out. I've worked on a production fibreglas fishboat which was at least that far out. A friend's stock fibreglass boat has a difference in cabinside tumblehome of two inches from one side to the other. Origami boats , even roughly built ones, are far more precise. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > I pulled and tacked half of the hull from the pattern. Now I have real-size half to compare to 3D model. I measured some key-distances (chine angle, bow-to-stern, stern-to-centerline, etc) to check how real half of the hull is compare to 3D model. > > > > The half of the hull is still pretty flexible at this stage, but it does not affect the measurements a lot. Long story short, distances and angle are in tolerances (+/-) 0.5-1% > > > > So... For the question about "How precise is origami hull?", I would say - very precise for a boat. Especially with such simple construction. > > > > What about comment "Every origami hull is different"? I think, it just depends how precise you cut the pattern from the plan and how carefully you fold it. m one side tothe toher. If another half's pattern is exactly the same, you will get EXACTLY the same 3D shape for another half as for the first one. Which answers the question about "symmetry" of origami hull. > > > > If you carefully measure key-distances after pulling halves together, you will get the hull geometry VERY close to designed boat (or 3D model). > > > > Even taking into an account that there are some variations in cutting the pattern, final boat's hull cannot be significantly different from "designed boat". > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28937|28931|2012-09-22 22:12:22|wild_explorer|Re: Precision of origami hull - pulling half of the hull from the pa|Personally, I think that origami construction has better chance for the boat to be symmetrical. Tolerances 0.5-1% are NOT for the finished hull yet. It will be aligned and slightly changed later to exact 3D dimensions (with several beam measurements, leveling sides, etc). You can get EXACT 3D shape as designed with some little effort. It is very hard to screw it up if you carefully align and tack weld the edges of the half's pattern. With equal halves of the hull, there is NO WAY you can get "non-symmetric" hull. Centerline tacks act like hinges when you pull the hull together. I agree with Brent, that if the hull (any type of construction) for some reason is 2-3 inches off from designed 3D shape, it WILL NOT make any difference for sea worthiness of the hull, balance or affect steering. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, John Fisher wrote: > > When my uncle has his boat measured for a rating they asked him if he had measured the same side twice. I guess it is common to have boats not be symmetrical. > | 28938|28931|2012-09-23 13:52:14|wild_explorer|Re: Precision of origami hull - pulling half of the hull from the pa|I re-read my posts and I need to make a clarification about symmetry of origami hull... Something in my posts could be interpreted as double-meaning - sorry for that. There is an explanation... I think that origami hull has no chance to be asymmetrical. 1. It starts from pulling the half of the hull from the pattern. I made several scribe marks on the edges of the seams of flat pattern (before pulling the half together) to check 3D shape alignment. Scribe marks came together with less than 1mm (~1/32") difference. I am not sure if another type of construction could claim similar precision as origami construction for 39ft hull. Note: Some scribe marks were a little bit off until final join of midships seam was made. Then everything felt into place. So, taking time aligning last several inches of the pattern's pull (midship's seam area) to make final half's shape is worth it. 2. Most important part of the hull assembly is straightness of the centerline of the hull. For origami construction, the centerline straightness is dictated by the shape of the pattern. If you take a look at the pictures, it LOOKS LIKE the centerline of the folded half is not straight. It just optical illusion, because the hull's half is laying on the side. If you put the half (chine-up) on flat surface, you will see that the centerline is straight. Joining 2 straight edges (hull's halves) you get straight center line. Pulling the hull together(joining 2 halves) simply changes the angle of the half's side and brings it into pre-final position forming straight centerline. 3. Leveling the hull's sides and checking_for/removing possible twist of the hull following Brent's recommendations insures that hull's shape is symmetrical.| 28939|28931|2012-09-24 04:36:29|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Precision of origami hull - pulling half of the hull from the pa|Boats usually are known for having one "fast" tack and a miserable one. Restoring wooden classics we found sometimes differences of far more than three inches of the splines between sides. Sometimes it was like working on two different boats in terms of starboard and port. At the very beginning of my apprenticeship I helped "building" the original moulds for freefall-rescueboats (and for some 50-footer-production-resin-floating-condos ....) Grinding and grinding and grinding and grinding and grinding and grinding and grinding, then a brief try, three or four reference points roughly checked, followed by another fourtnight of all-day-grinding. Just three inches seem to be a nice job ... Origami ought to be far more precise and reproducible, given You mirror the 2D-pattern exactly. Am 23.09.2012 um 01:50 schrieb brentswain38: > Friends, who have worked on stock, production fibreglas boats, tell me that they often vary by up to three inches from side to side. If you take a bulkhead which is a perfect fit on one side, and try it on the opposite side , it will often be up to three inches out. I've worked on a production fibreglas fishboat which was at least that far out. A friend's stock fibreglass boat has a difference in cabinside tumblehome of two inches from one side to the other. Origami boats , even roughly built ones, are far more precise. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28940|28931|2012-09-24 11:08:33|JOHN|Re: Precision of origami hull - pulling half of the hull from the pa|When working on my Norwegian built wooden lapstrake, we used to comment that Lars worked on Port side and Ole the Starboard, each working from separate plans and ideas. Good boat, hard to stay ahead of maint, finally gave up, donated her to DJ. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Personally, I think that origami construction has better chance for the boat to be symmetrical. > > Tolerances 0.5-1% are NOT for the finished hull yet. It will be aligned and slightly changed later to exact 3D dimensions (with several beam measurements, leveling sides, etc). You can get EXACT 3D shape as designed with some little effort. It is very hard to screw it up if you carefully align and tack weld the edges of the half's pattern. > > With equal halves of the hull, there is NO WAY you can get "non-symmetric" hull. Centerline tacks act like hinges when you pull the hull together. > > I agree with Brent, that if the hull (any type of construction) for some reason is 2-3 inches off from designed 3D shape, it WILL NOT make any difference for sea worthiness of the hull, balance or affect steering. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, John Fisher wrote: > > > > When my uncle has his boat measured for a rating they asked him if he had measured the same side twice. I guess it is common to have boats not be symmetrical. > > > | 28941|28931|2012-09-24 15:54:31|brentswain38|Re: Precision of origami hull - pulling half of the hull from the pa|As you can see in the video, when you have pulled the entire centreline together, but not the stem, it looks way off.You would swear there is no way they are going to match up. Don't panic! Pull the two halves of the stem together, and it matches up perfectly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "JOHN" wrote: > > When working on my Norwegian built wooden lapstrake, we used to comment that Lars worked on Port side and Ole the Starboard, each working from separate plans and ideas. Good boat, hard to stay ahead of maint, finally gave up, donated her to DJ. > > John > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Personally, I think that origami construction has better chance for the boat to be symmetrical. > > > > Tolerances 0.5-1% are NOT for the finished hull yet. It will be aligned and slightly changed later to exact 3D dimensions (with several beam measurements, leveling sides, etc). You can get EXACT 3D shape as designed with some little effort. It is very hard to screw it up if you carefully align and tack weld the edges of the half's pattern. > > > > With equal halves of the hull, there is NO WAY you can get "non-symmetric" hull. Centerline tacks act like hinges when you pull the hull together. > > > > I agree with Brent, that if the hull (any type of construction) for some reason is 2-3 inches off from designed 3D shape, it WILL NOT make any difference for sea worthiness of the hull, balance or affect steering. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, John Fisher wrote: > > > > > > When my uncle has his boat measured for a rating they asked him if he had measured the same side twice. I guess it is common to have boats not be symmetrical. > > > > > > | 28942|28933|2012-09-24 16:00:36|hollowayjoshua|Re: Postal money orders|Hi Brent, What topics/chapters are covered in your book? I'm not a welder, but I get the feeling that there are other topics. Thanks, Josh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > When you order books and plans by postal money order, please send only international money orders , not those internal ones, especially not US internal postal money orders. It says right on them that they can only be cashed in the US. In Canada they can be hard to get cashed. > Thanks > Brent > | 28944|28944|2012-09-24 16:35:40|Mark Steele|B. Swain|Mark Steele venturehullscanadaincorporated@... 250-384-3396 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28946|28932|2012-09-25 00:44:23|Aaron|Re: HEY|Other have had it. I fell for it one go to yahoo and change your password and you should be ok. ________________________________ From: pburgosbr To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:38 PM Subject: [origamiboats] HEY   WARNING! I DONT SENT MESSAGE WITH THAT LINK (PLEASE, DONT OPEN THAT LINK, IT IS A VIRUS) ANYONE HAS INFECTED MY COMPUTER. PAULO AFONSO [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28947|26545|2012-09-25 23:11:32|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|Some notes about welding with E7024. I re-read some welding recommendations, and here is some info: - E7024 welds better with AC than with DC (as Brent says). It might be harder to weld with DC. There is 7024AC electrode, but this information applies to a regular 7024-1 (AC/DC). - DRAG electrode on a plate (electrode's coating touches plate lightly). DO NOT maintain arc distance by withdrawing electrode from a plate (like with other types of electrodes). Maintaining arc's gap will give you poor penetration. Dragging electrode gives better/correct penetration. - Travel fast (~ 17 in/min) to stay about 1/4"-3/8" ahead of molten slag. - Avoid making craters at the end of weld. It might lead to shrinking cracks.| 28948|26545|2012-09-26 22:36:01|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|I was trying to weld using 3/32" and 1/8" E7018 electrodes with AC welder. The arc just kept going out. So, clean the tip of electrode, re-strike, arc goes out in 0.5-1 sec. Repeat... I tried different current settings (in recommended electrode's range for AC). Higher current setting, just makes arc to go inside electrode's coating and extinguish. Lower - makes arc unstable. I do not recall such problem with DC welder - it was easy to weld with E7018. I was able to make couple of 4" lousy welds with E7018... Finally I gave up. I had to switch back to E6013. Problem gone, nice welds... Is there some trick to weld using E7018 with AC welder?| 28949|26545|2012-09-27 17:53:22|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|I asked Lincoln's experts about it. Short Answer: "Lincoln's Excalibur 7018MR (E7018 H4R) was designed for DC+. For AC use 7018AC electrode". My note: 7018AC is not approved by boat building standards. So, no surprise I could not weld with it using AC welder ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was trying to weld using 3/32" and 1/8" E7018 electrodes with AC welder. The arc just kept going out. So, clean the tip of electrode, re-strike, arc goes out in 0.5-1 sec. Repeat... > > I tried different current settings (in recommended electrode's range for AC). Higher current setting, just makes arc to go inside electrode's coating and extinguish. Lower - makes arc unstable. I do not recall such problem with DC welder - it was easy to weld with E7018. > > I was able to make couple of 4" lousy welds with E7018... Finally I gave up. I had to switch back to E6013. Problem gone, nice welds... > > Is there some trick to weld using E7018 with AC welder? > | 28950|26545|2012-09-28 10:34:05|fred jordan|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|the trick is not to do it, it doesn t give you a good weld. > -----Original Message----- > From: williswildest@... > Sent: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 02:35:58 -0000 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables) > > I was trying to weld using 3/32" and 1/8" E7018 electrodes with AC > welder. The arc just kept going out. So, clean the tip of electrode, > re-strike, arc goes out in 0.5-1 sec. Repeat... > > I tried different current settings (in recommended electrode's range for > AC). Higher current setting, just makes arc to go inside electrode's > coating and extinguish. Lower - makes arc unstable. I do not recall such > problem with DC welder - it was easy to weld with E7018. > > I was able to make couple of 4" lousy welds with E7018... Finally I gave > up. I had to switch back to E6013. Problem gone, nice welds... > > Is there some trick to weld using E7018 with AC welder? ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium| 28951|26545|2012-09-28 11:07:55|Matt Malone|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|I am wondering why 7018AC is not approved for boats ? Separately, 7018AC works really well on AC. If I wanted to teach someone to weld, I would give them a stick of 7018AC, crank the power up a bit, and give them a thick piece of metal to work on in the flat orientation. After a few sticks, and them being convinced there is nothing challenging at all about welding, I would turn down the power to a more appropriate level for the rod, and give them a thinner piece to work on. Even with a slightly thinner piece, making a hole with 7018AC is hard. Then I would introduce them to right angle welds with the line of the weld horizontal and the two pieces angling up at 45 degrees. After that I would probably give them some 6011, and again a thick piece and let them feel the difference, get them working harder on hand movements etc. Then I would taken them back to 7018AC, with good hand movements, it would look beautiful. Then more challenging orientations with 6011. Sheet metal would come after all of that. No this is not the sequence that shop workers would learn welding, this is the hobbiest who can reorient their projects. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:53:19 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables) I asked Lincoln's experts about it. Short Answer: "Lincoln's Excalibur 7018MR (E7018 H4R) was designed for DC+. For AC use 7018AC electrode". My note: 7018AC is not approved by boat building standards. So, no surprise I could not weld with it using AC welder ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was trying to weld using 3/32" and 1/8" E7018 electrodes with AC welder. The arc just kept going out. So, clean the tip of electrode, re-strike, arc goes out in 0.5-1 sec. Repeat... > > I tried different current settings (in recommended electrode's range for AC). Higher current setting, just makes arc to go inside electrode's coating and extinguish. Lower - makes arc unstable. I do not recall such problem with DC welder - it was easy to weld with E7018. > > I was able to make couple of 4" lousy welds with E7018... Finally I gave up. I had to switch back to E6013. Problem gone, nice welds... > > Is there some trick to weld using E7018 with AC welder? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28952|26545|2012-09-28 12:07:15|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|You can see why it is not approved for boats here: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/en_US/Products/ED030826/c110g.pdf Compare Conformances: 1. Lincoln® 7018AC (E7018 H8): AWS A5.1/A5.1M: ASME SFA-A5.1: CWB/CSA W48-06: 2. Excalibur® 7018 MR (E7018 H4R): AWS A5.1/A5.1M: 2004 ASME SFA-A5.1: ABS: Lloyd's Register: DNV Grade: GL: BV Grade: CWB/CSA W48-06: P.S. 7018AC cost about 2-3 times more than 7018 (about $6-7/Lb?) Its typical applications: General fabrication, Tack and skip welds, Thin sections. But it is capable of cold re-strikes. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I am wondering why 7018AC is not approved for boats ? > | 28953|26545|2012-09-28 13:15:36|M.J. Malone|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|Seems that Excaliber 7018MR is Lloyd's approved, is suitable for AC, pressure vessels and can do cold restarts. I might check the price and try a little. Probably expensive. Matt wild_explorer wrote: You can see why it is not approved for boats here: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/en_US/Products/ED030826/c110g.pdf Compare Conformances: 1. Lincoln® 7018AC (E7018 H8): AWS A5.1/A5.1M: ASME SFA-A5.1: CWB/CSA W48-06: 2. Excalibur® 7018 MR (E7018 H4R): AWS A5.1/A5.1M: 2004 ASME SFA-A5.1: ABS: Lloyd's Register: DNV Grade: GL: BV Grade: CWB/CSA W48-06: P.S. 7018AC cost about 2-3 times more than 7018 (about $6-7/Lb?) Its typical applications: General fabrication, Tack and skip welds, Thin sections. But it is capable of cold re-strikes. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I am wondering why 7018AC is not approved for boats ? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28954|26545|2012-09-28 14:55:16|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|Excalibur 7018MR is NOT suitable for AC. It has typical operating procedure for AC in specs, I was fooled by it too... That why I asked Lincoln's product application experts (see my post couples of days ago). Excalibur 7018MR was designed for DC+. I have no idea why they put AC current's specs there. May be it is for 400Hz AC. This electrode works fine with DC+, but not with AC. Lincoln does not recommend to use it with AC. That may be why our welding class did not have AC welder. They used 7018 electrodes to teach welding. In my area Excalibur 7018MR was cheapest compare to others (6011, 6013, 7024). About $2.50-3/Lb P.S. As you see, Lincoln has 3 brand-names for E6011 electrodes, and only 1 (Fleetweld 35) is approved by ABS and Lloid's. So, not every E6011 electrode is approved for boatbuilding. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > Seems that Excaliber 7018MR is Lloyd's approved, is suitable for AC, pressure vessels and can do cold restarts. I might check the price and try a little. Probably expensive. > > Matt | 28955|26545|2012-09-28 18:30:53|Matt Malone|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|Looks like a DC inverter machine is in my future then if I want to step up the welding. Brent says 6011 welding rod and an AC box is all that is needed for the hull. I would prefer an option of a stronger rod that does a much smoother finish and webs better, to fab or attach the smaller, more stressed bits. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 18:55:15 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables) Excalibur 7018MR is NOT suitable for AC. It has typical operating procedure for AC in specs, I was fooled by it too... That why I asked Lincoln's product application experts (see my post couples of days ago). Excalibur 7018MR was designed for DC+. I have no idea why they put AC current's specs there. May be it is for 400Hz AC. This electrode works fine with DC+, but not with AC. Lincoln does not recommend to use it with AC. That may be why our welding class did not have AC welder. They used 7018 electrodes to teach welding. In my area Excalibur 7018MR was cheapest compare to others (6011, 6013, 7024). About $2.50-3/Lb P.S. As you see, Lincoln has 3 brand-names for E6011 electrodes, and only 1 (Fleetweld 35) is approved by ABS and Lloid's. So, not every E6011 electrode is approved for boatbuilding. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > Seems that Excaliber 7018MR is Lloyd's approved, is suitable for AC, pressure vessels and can do cold restarts. I might check the price and try a little. Probably expensive. > > Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28956|26545|2012-09-28 19:15:36|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|Well, if you search for "Lloid's" in that Lincoln's SMAW consumables document, and see AC as FIRST operating procedure, you will find whole range of electrodes designed for AC and approved for boatbuilding. More likely it will cover all your (and your boat) needs. I suspect, that "approved for boatbulding" is just means "smooth welds" provided by electrode. I did not pay attention to it before. I know that 5/32 and 3/32 E6013 works just fine with proper settings for AC welder and I can weld almost everything (mild steel) with it on a boat. Welds are as smooth as with E7024-1. Actually, my inverter gave me "colder" welds with 6013 and 7024-1. I have better results with AC welder - slag just pills off by itself. With inverter, I had to hammer it off (even with higher current settings than for AC). May be it just me. DC inverter is more convenient and most electrodes will work with it. Last time I was welding on the hull, AC welder tripped CB several times. But, you cannot beat the price of used AC welder, you just need to find electrodes which work fine with AC and DC. P.S. Matt, you probably meant Excalibur 7018-1 MR, not Excalibur 7018 MR before. It is different electrode/brand_name and has different futures, but the name looks almost the same. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Looks like a DC inverter machine is in my future then if I want to step up the welding. Brent says 6011 welding rod and an AC box is all that is needed for the hull. I would prefer an option of a stronger rod that does a much smoother finish and webs better, to fab or attach the smaller, more stressed bits. > > Matt | 28957|26545|2012-09-28 22:08:07|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|Have anybody tried E7014 (Fleetweld 47) with AC welder? It is all position electrode and looks like it is designed for AC. And approved too ;) Might be a good addition to E6013 (Fleetweld 37) for welding with AC welder. I found (so far) that Lincoln's common "approved electrodes" compatible with AC are: E6011 - Fleetweld 35 E6013 - Fleetweld 37 E7014 - Fleetweld 47 E7024-1 - Jetweld 1| 28958|26545|2012-09-28 22:49:45|fred jordan|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|my favorite rod, welds like a dream, with high deposit, and smooth slag removal. i have it special ordered down here to Panama > -----Original Message----- > From: williswildest@... > Sent: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 02:08:05 -0000 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables) > > Have anybody tried E7014 (Fleetweld 47) with AC welder? It is all > position electrode and looks like it is designed for AC. And approved too > ;) > > Might be a good addition to E6013 (Fleetweld 37) for welding with AC > welder. > > I found (so far) that Lincoln's common "approved electrodes" compatible > with AC are: > > E6011 - Fleetweld 35 > E6013 - Fleetweld 37 > E7014 - Fleetweld 47 > E7024-1 - Jetweld 1 ____________________________________________________________ FREE ONLINE PHOTOSHARING - Share your photos online with your friends and family! Visit http://www.inbox.com/photosharing to find out more!| 28959|26545|2012-09-30 12:08:27|Carl Volkwein|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|How about 7014? that can weld A.C. --- On Fri, 9/28/12, Matt Malone wrote: From: Matt Malone Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, September 28, 2012, 6:30 PM Looks like a DC inverter machine is in my future then if I want to step up the welding.   Brent says 6011 welding rod and an AC box is all that is needed for the hull.   I would prefer an option of a stronger rod that does a much smoother finish and webs better, to fab or attach the smaller, more stressed bits.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 18:55:15 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)                         Excalibur 7018MR is NOT suitable for AC. It has typical operating procedure for AC in specs, I was fooled by it too... That why I asked Lincoln's product application experts (see my post couples of days ago). Excalibur 7018MR was designed for DC+. I have no idea why they put AC current's specs there. May be it is for 400Hz AC. This electrode works fine with DC+, but not with AC. Lincoln does not recommend to use it with AC. That may be why our welding class did not have AC welder. They used 7018 electrodes to teach welding. In my area Excalibur 7018MR was cheapest compare to others (6011, 6013, 7024). About $2.50-3/Lb P.S. As you see, Lincoln has 3 brand-names for E6011 electrodes, and only 1 (Fleetweld 35) is approved by ABS and Lloid's. So, not every E6011 electrode is approved for boatbuilding. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > Seems that Excaliber 7018MR is Lloyd's approved, is suitable for AC, pressure vessels and can do cold restarts.  I might check the price and try a little.  Probably expensive. > > Matt                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28960|28960|2012-09-30 22:08:06|Doug Jackson|Quick Acting Watertight Door|Has anyone ever build a quick acting watertight door from scratch?  Any plans or suggestions?   Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28961|28960|2012-09-30 23:08:23|wild_explorer|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|Can you give better description what you have in mind (purpose, requirements, preferred shape)? It might spark some ideas... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Has anyone ever build a quick acting watertight door from scratch?  Any plans or suggestions? >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28962|28960|2012-09-30 23:27:31|Doug Jackson|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|This is what I'm thinking of doing.  I'd really like to find details on what exactly that Hex Bushing and Spring arrangement is that holds the rods. http://www.marine-doors-hatches.com/wp-content/uploads/PDF/MCS-1104.pdf%c2%a0   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 10:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door   Can you give better description what you have in mind (purpose, requirements, preferred shape)? It might spark some ideas... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Has anyone ever build a quick acting watertight door from scratch?  Any plans or suggestions? >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28963|28960|2012-10-01 01:57:26|wild_explorer|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|It looks like removable assembly (just to be able to take it apart). Hex prevents assembly from rotating (only short shaft rotates through which rod slides), set screw holds Hex in place. Spring does not really make sense at all - it just prevents short shaft from falling inside of a cylinder holder welded to a door. Here is another design for QAWTD: https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=eefb71a5bdb1d81988b4fe516fdeebfb&tab=core&_cview=0 Check QAWTD what Navy and USCG use... It should have proven and simple design. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > This is what I'm thinking of doing.  I'd really like to find details on what exactly that Hex Bushing and Spring arrangement is that holds the rods. > > http://www.marine-doors-hatches.com/wp-content/uploads/PDF/MCS-1104.pdf%c3%82%c2%a0 > >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com | 28964|28960|2012-10-01 07:31:32|Matt Malone|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|Well, it looks like you have a terrific design drawing there. I would just pay attention to the stiffness of the frame and door -- slightly thicker right-angles to the plane of the door flanges over thicker bulkhead material. Also, a really thick spongy gasket, to take up imperfections in manufacture. Not sure what they are trying to show with the springs at 27. I would have expected the springs to pull the door tight, those spring seem to push the rods in the other direction. It looks really heavy. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 20:27:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door This is what I'm thinking of doing. I'd really like to find details on what exactly that Hex Bushing and Spring arrangement is that holds the rods. http://www.marine-doors-hatches.com/wp-content/uploads/PDF/MCS-1104.pdf Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 10:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door Can you give better description what you have in mind (purpose, requirements, preferred shape)? It might spark some ideas... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Has anyone ever build a quick acting watertight door from scratch? Any plans or suggestions? > > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28965|28960|2012-10-01 09:05:28|Doug Jackson|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|Right, I don't get the spring either.  I think the Hex is part of the bushing.  So you and loosen the set screw and give the bushing, which is threaded on the outside a turn. But the set screw would screw up the treads.  And something would have to hold the guide for the rod in the bushing.   ...hmmm    Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 12:57 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door   It looks like removable assembly (just to be able to take it apart). Hex prevents assembly from rotating (only short shaft rotates through which rod slides), set screw holds Hex in place. Spring does not really make sense at all - it just prevents short shaft from falling inside of a cylinder holder welded to a door. Here is another design for QAWTD: https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=eefb71a5bdb1d81988b4fe516fdeebfb&tab=core&_cview=0 Check QAWTD what Navy and USCG use... It should have proven and simple design. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > This is what I'm thinking of doing.  I'd really like to find details on what exactly that Hex Bushing and Spring arrangement is that holds the rods. > > http://www.marine-doors-hatches.com/wp-content/uploads/PDF/MCS-1104.pdf%c3%82%c2%a0 > >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28966|28960|2012-10-01 09:10:39|Doug Jackson|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|Thanks for the ideas, that's appreciated.  Yeah the whole rod guide is what I'd love to see a photo or sketch of.      Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 6:31 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door Well, it looks like you have a terrific design drawing there.  I would just pay attention to the stiffness of the frame and door -- slightly thicker right-angles to the plane of the door flanges over thicker bulkhead material.  Also, a really thick spongy gasket, to take up imperfections in manufacture.    Not sure what they are trying to show with the springs at 27.  I would have expected the springs to pull the door tight, those spring seem to push the rods in the other direction.  It looks really heavy.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 20:27:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door                         This is what I'm thinking of doing.  I'd really like to find details on what exactly that Hex Bushing and Spring arrangement is that holds the rods. http://www.marine-doors-hatches.com/wp-content/uploads/PDF/MCS-1104.pdf Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 10:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door   Can you give better description what you have in mind (purpose, requirements, preferred shape)? It might spark some ideas... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Has anyone ever build a quick acting watertight door from scratch?  Any plans or suggestions? >  > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28967|28960|2012-10-01 09:16:00|Matt Malone|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|I get it... The spring holds the bars closing bars out (looser), the set screw on the end presses them in (tighter). You close the door, then adjust the set screw tighter to make sure the door is sealed. Brilliant. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 06:05:27 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door Right, I don't get the spring either. I think the Hex is part of the bushing. So you and loosen the set screw and give the bushing, which is threaded on the outside a turn. But the set screw would screw up the treads. And something would have to hold the guide for the rod in the bushing. ...hmmm Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 12:57 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door It looks like removable assembly (just to be able to take it apart). Hex prevents assembly from rotating (only short shaft rotates through which rod slides), set screw holds Hex in place. Spring does not really make sense at all - it just prevents short shaft from falling inside of a cylinder holder welded to a door. Here is another design for QAWTD: https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=eefb71a5bdb1d81988b4fe516fdeebfb&tab=core&_cview=0 Check QAWTD what Navy and USCG use... It should have proven and simple design. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > This is what I'm thinking of doing. � I'd really like to find details on what exactly that Hex Bushing and Spring arrangement is that holds the rods. > > http://www.marine-doors-hatches.com/wp-content/uploads/PDF/MCS-1104.pdf%ef%bf%bd > > � > Doug > SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28968|28960|2012-10-01 09:22:47|Doug Jackson|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|Matt.  I think that would work to adjust the dog, but it would put all of the force from the dog onto a set screw.  That's is if the compartment on the dog side of the door flooded.  But a 50/50 chance is better that no door at all. :)   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 8:15 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door I get it... The spring holds the bars closing bars out (looser), the set screw on the end presses them in (tighter).  You close the door, then adjust the set screw tighter to make sure the door is sealed.    Brilliant.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 06:05:27 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door                         Right, I don't get the spring either.  I think the Hex is part of the bushing.  So you and loosen the set screw and give the bushing, which is threaded on the outside a turn. But the set screw would screw up the treads.  And something would have to hold the guide for the rod in the bushing.  ...hmmm Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 12:57 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door   It looks like removable assembly (just to be able to take it apart). Hex prevents assembly from rotating (only short shaft rotates through which rod slides), set screw holds Hex in place. Spring does not really make sense at all - it just prevents short shaft from falling inside of a cylinder holder welded to a door. Here is another design for QAWTD: https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=eefb71a5bdb1d81988b4fe516fdeebfb&tab=core&_cview=0 Check QAWTD what Navy and USCG use... It should have proven and simple design. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > This is what I'm thinking of doing.  I'd really like to find details on what exactly that Hex Bushing and Spring arrangement is that holds the rods. > > http://www.marine-doors-hatches.com/wp-content/uploads/PDF/MCS-1104.pdf%c3%82 > >  > Doug > SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28969|28960|2012-10-01 09:50:12|Matt Malone|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|I think the idea is, it would seal from both sides... What were you planning to use this for ? A hatch ? An internal bulkhead ? I will assume this is an internal bulkhead. Much simpler would be weld C-channel track on both sides of the doorway on the sides and bottom (6 pieces) and planks that would drop in from the top. Put a piece of plastic sheet on the other side as a dam -- think of like a roll-up blind mounted under the bottom C-channel. Leakage would be low enough to be bailable. It is the way small hydro dams are sealed. It is the way wood boats were made. The plastic sheet is how some emergency hull sealing systems work -- like putting a sail on the outside of the boat to block water from coming in. If you worked up a clamp to push down on the last plank to compress the stack, it would seal even better after it gets a little wet and they swell. I would weld a standard pipe nipple on both sides of the bulkhead so that one might attach a hose and bailing pump to either side to pump water. That way, if the source of the leak is repairable, the compartment can be drained without opening either the bulkhead or an outside hatch. The bailing pump need only pump the head difference from the inside to outside water level, so, it will be easy to start. If one is considering bulkheads, then well sealable hatches and vents are another consideration. With say the forward cabin open to the ocean, the boat will sink at the bow enough that the foredeck will be awash far more than normal. Those leaks need to be a lot smaller than the bailing pump. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 06:22:46 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door Matt. I think that would work to adjust the dog, but it would put all of the force from the dog onto a set screw. That's is if the compartment on the dog side of the door flooded. But a 50/50 chance is better that no door at all. :) Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 8:15 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door I get it... The spring holds the bars closing bars out (looser), the set screw on the end presses them in (tighter). You close the door, then adjust the set screw tighter to make sure the door is sealed. Brilliant. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 06:05:27 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door Right, I don't get the spring either. I think the Hex is part of the bushing. So you and loosen the set screw and give the bushing, which is threaded on the outside a turn. But the set screw would screw up the treads. And something would have to hold the guide for the rod in the bushing. ...hmmm Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 12:57 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door It looks like removable assembly (just to be able to take it apart). Hex prevents assembly from rotating (only short shaft rotates through which rod slides), set screw holds Hex in place. Spring does not really make sense at all - it just prevents short shaft from falling inside of a cylinder holder welded to a door. Here is another design for QAWTD: https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=eefb71a5bdb1d81988b4fe516fdeebfb&tab=core&_cview=0 Check QAWTD what Navy and USCG use... It should have proven and simple design. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > This is what I'm thinking of doing. � I'd really like to find details on what exactly that Hex Bushing and Spring arrangement is that holds the rods. > > http://www.marine-doors-hatches.com/wp-content/uploads/PDF/MCS-1104.pdf%ef%bf%bd > > � > Doug > SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28970|28960|2012-10-01 10:51:59|wild_explorer|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|More likely Hex part is just an insert which slides in (not threaded in). That why set screw is needed to hold it in place... As you mentioned, all load will be on set screw in this case if there is no flange. It might have different arrangement: Short heavy wall pipe with a round top which has hex slot (assembly base welded to a door) , big nut with flat flange which slides through that top , Hex bushing (with threads outside) and inside hole/guide for short shaft, washer, cylindrical short shaft with slot for locking bar. This way, all load is between Nut and Hex bushing (which are tightened together - hut has inside thread, bushing has outside thread. Spring is just keep short shaft against the flange of the nut. I do not see purpose of set screw in this case (may be for . It looks like original design is too complicated and can be simplified. I think that the most important part is seal of that rotating handle which goes through the door. Another QAWTD design (click on 3D view) - looks much simpler and reliable: http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7035fc2292b8083314621506c22882a0 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Right, I don't get the spring either.  I think the Hex is part of the bushing.  So you and loosen the set screw and give the bushing, which is threaded on the outside a turn. But the set screw would screw up the treads.  And something would have to hold the guide for the rod in the bushing.   ...hmmm  >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 12:57 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > >   > It looks like removable assembly (just to be able to take it apart). Hex prevents assembly from rotating (only short shaft rotates through which rod slides), set screw holds Hex in place. Spring does not really make sense at all - it just prevents short shaft from falling inside of a cylinder holder welded to a door. > > Here is another design for QAWTD: > > https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=eefb71a5bdb1d81988b4fe516fdeebfb&tab=core&_cview=0 > > Check QAWTD what Navy and USCG use... It should have proven and simple design. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > This is what I'm thinking of doing.  I'd really like to find details on what exactly that Hex Bushing and Spring arrangement is that holds the rods. > > > > http://www.marine-doors-hatches.com/wp-content/uploads/PDF/MCS-1104.pdf%c3%83%c2%82%c3%82%c2%a0 > > > >   > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28971|28960|2012-10-01 11:56:34|M.J. Malone|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|Re seal of center shaft, really, not that critical, make the hole smooth, shaft smooth, with a fixed collar on one end, removable collar on other, and slap some wax from a sealing ring for a toilet in there. With some attention, it will leak very little if at all. Assuming there is someone there to bail, no problem. Matt wild_explorer wrote: More likely Hex part is just an insert which slides in (not threaded in). That why set screw is needed to hold it in place... As you mentioned, all load will be on set screw in this case if there is no flange. It might have different arrangement: Short heavy wall pipe with a round top which has hex slot (assembly base welded to a door) , big nut with flat flange which slides through that top , Hex bushing (with threads outside) and inside hole/guide for short shaft, washer, cylindrical short shaft with slot for locking bar. This way, all load is between Nut and Hex bushing (which are tightened together - hut has inside thread, bushing has outside thread. Spring is just keep short shaft against the flange of the nut. I do not see purpose of set screw in this case (may be for . It looks like original design is too complicated and can be simplified. I think that the most important part is seal of that rotating handle which goes through the door. Another QAWTD design (click on 3D view) - looks much simpler and reliable: http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7035fc2292b8083314621506c22882a0 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Right, I don't get the spring either.  I think the Hex is part of the bushing.  So you and loosen the set screw and give the bushing, which is threaded on the outside a turn. But the set screw would screw up the treads.  And something would have to hold the guide for the rod in the bushing.  ...hmmm >  > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 12:57 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > >  > It looks like removable assembly (just to be able to take it apart). Hex prevents assembly from rotating (only short shaft rotates through which rod slides), set screw holds Hex in place. Spring does not really make sense at all - it just prevents short shaft from falling inside of a cylinder holder welded to a door. > > Here is another design for QAWTD: > > https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=eefb71a5bdb1d81988b4fe516fdeebfb&tab=core&_cview=0 > > Check QAWTD what Navy and USCG use... It should have proven and simple design. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > This is what I'm thinking of doing.  I'd really like to find details on what exactly that Hex Bushing and Spring arrangement is that holds the rods. > > > > http://www.marine-doors-hatches.com/wp-content/uploads/PDF/MCS-1104.pdf%c3%83%e2%80%9a%c3%82 > > > >  > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28972|28960|2012-10-01 16:19:53|Darren Bos|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|The door Wild posted not only looks simpler, but less dangerous. Doug, the first thing I thought when looking at the door with the wheel in the middle is that it looks like a pain in the butt for when the door is open (which is hopefully most of the time). The wheel itself takes space out of the doorway unless the door opens well over 90 degrees and as drawn it swings open with the closing bars facing the doorway when the door is open. Those bars would make a bit of a nasty hazard when seas are rough. At the risk of sounding naive, why install a watertight door unless you are going to be chartering etc. where there might be a legal requirement. The steel hull is so unlikely to be holed... Have I missed something? Darren At 07:51 AM 01/10/2012, you wrote: > > >More likely Hex part is just an insert which >slides in (not threaded in). That why set screw >is needed to hold it in place... As you >mentioned, all load will be on set screw in this case if there is no flange. > >It might have different arrangement: Short heavy >wall pipe with a round top which has hex slot >(assembly base welded to a door) , big nut with >flat flange which slides through that top , Hex >bushing (with threads outside) and inside >hole/guide for short shaft, washer, cylindrical >short shaft with slot for locking bar. > >This way, all load is between Nut and Hex >bushing (which are tightened together - hut has >inside thread, bushing has outside thread. >Spring is just keep short shaft against the >flange of the nut. I do not see purpose of set screw in this case (may be for . > >It looks like original design is too complicated >and can be simplified. I think that the most >important part is seal of that rotating handle which goes through the door. > >Another QAWTD design (click on 3D view) - looks much simpler and reliable: > >http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7035fc2292b8083314621506c22882a0 > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > Right, I don't get the spring either.  I > think the Hex is part of the bushing.  So you > and loosen the set screw and give the bushing, > which is threaded on the outside a turn. But > the set screw would screw up the treads.  And > something would have to hold the guide for the rod in the bushing.  ...hmmm > >  > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: wild_explorer > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 12:57 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > > > > >  > > It looks like removable assembly (just to be > able to take it apart). Hex prevents assembly > from rotating (only short shaft rotates through > which rod slides), set screw holds Hex in > place. Spring does not really make sense at all > - it just prevents short shaft from falling > inside of a cylinder holder welded to a door. > > > > Here is another design for QAWTD: > > > > > https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=eefb71a5bdb1d81988b4fe516fdeebfb&tab=core&_cview=0 > > > > Check QAWTD what Navy and USCG use... It > should have proven and simple design. > > > > --- In > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > > > This is what I'm thinking of doing.  I'd > really like to find details on what exactly > that Hex Bushing and Spring arrangement is that holds the rods. > > > > > > > http://www.marine-doors-hatches.com/wp-content/uploads/PDF/MCS-1104.pdf%c3%83%c2%82%c3%82 > > > > > > >  > > > Doug > > > SVSeeker.com > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28973|28960|2012-10-01 17:05:08|Doug Jackson|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|Oh!  Found a good document, with better detail: http://www.hnsa.org/doc/nstm/ch600-1.pdf%c2%a0%c2%a0 Wheel or leaver will both work, what I really want is easy to build.  There are 3 doors, all open past 90 degrees if needed.  We have 4 watertight bulkheads, and 3 will have doors.  And we have that because we're a work boat for diver support, salvage and recovery.  We plan to get close to the things that sent other boats to the bottom. :)   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Darren Bos To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door   The door Wild posted not only looks simpler, but less dangerous. Doug, the first thing I thought when looking at the door with the wheel in the middle is that it looks like a pain in the butt for when the door is open (which is hopefully most of the time). The wheel itself takes space out of the doorway unless the door opens well over 90 degrees and as drawn it swings open with the closing bars facing the doorway when the door is open. Those bars would make a bit of a nasty hazard when seas are rough. At the risk of sounding naive, why install a watertight door unless you are going to be chartering etc. where there might be a legal requirement. The steel hull is so unlikely to be holed... Have I missed something? Darren At 07:51 AM 01/10/2012, you wrote: > > >More likely Hex part is just an insert which >slides in (not threaded in). That why set screw >is needed to hold it in place... As you >mentioned, all load will be on set screw in this case if there is no flange. > >It might have different arrangement: Short heavy >wall pipe with a round top which has hex slot >(assembly base welded to a door) , big nut with >flat flange which slides through that top , Hex >bushing (with threads outside) and inside >hole/guide for short shaft, washer, cylindrical >short shaft with slot for locking bar. > >This way, all load is between Nut and Hex >bushing (which are tightened together - hut has >inside thread, bushing has outside thread. >Spring is just keep short shaft against the >flange of the nut. I do not see purpose of set screw in this case (may be for . > >It looks like original design is too complicated >and can be simplified. I think that the most >important part is seal of that rotating handle which goes through the door. > >Another QAWTD design (click on 3D view) - looks much simpler and reliable: > >http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7035fc2292b8083314621506c22882a0 > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > Right, I don't get the spring either.  I > think the Hex is part of the bushing.  So you > and loosen the set screw and give the bushing, > which is threaded on the outside a turn. But > the set screw would screw up the treads.  And > something would have to hold the guide for the rod in the bushing.  ...hmmm > >  > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: wild_explorer > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 12:57 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > > > > >  > > It looks like removable assembly (just to be > able to take it apart). Hex prevents assembly > from rotating (only short shaft rotates through > which rod slides), set screw holds Hex in > place. Spring does not really make sense at all > - it just prevents short shaft from falling > inside of a cylinder holder welded to a door. > > > > Here is another design for QAWTD: > > > > > https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=eefb71a5bdb1d81988b4fe516fdeebfb&tab=core&_cview=0 > > > > Check QAWTD what Navy and USCG use... It > should have proven and simple design. > > > > --- In > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > > > This is what I'm thinking of doing.  I'd > really like to find details on what exactly > that Hex Bushing and Spring arrangement is that holds the rods. > > > > > > > http://www.marine-doors-hatches.com/wp-content/uploads/PDF/MCS-1104.pdf%c3%83%e2%80%9a%c3%82 > > > > > > >  > > > Doug > > > SVSeeker.com > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28974|28960|2012-10-01 19:41:45|wild_explorer|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|Good find Doug! Airtight door is better than watertight in case of fire and it has all design and adjustment details there. Easy operation is the key. You really want to be able to open, close and lock the door just with one hand. "Locking wheel" door usually requires 2 hands to operate. Hey, Doug, do you plan to have "submarine mode" for your boat as well? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Oh!  Found a good document, with better detail: http://www.hnsa.org/doc/nstm/ch600-1.pdf%c3%82%c2%a0%c3%82%c2%a0 > > Wheel or leaver will both work, what I really want is easy to build.  There are 3 doors, all open past 90 degrees if needed.  We have 4 watertight bulkheads, and 3 will have doors.  And we have that because we're a work boat for diver support, salvage and recovery.  We plan to get close to the things that sent other boats to the bottom. :) >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Darren Bos > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 3:20 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > >   > > Doug, the first thing I thought > when looking at the door with the wheel in the > middle is that it looks like a pain in the butt > for when the door is open (which is hopefully > most of the time). | 28975|28933|2012-10-01 20:11:08|brentswain38|Re: Postal money orders|It covers building the hull, decks, cabin, cockpit, rudder and skeg, mast and rigging details, building interiors, firing strips, foaming, painting, ballasting, tankage, engine mounts, exhaust, composting head, Lavac style head, blocks, anchor winch , self steering, roller furling, watermaker, engine driven welder, hatches, structural principles aluminium boat building, bilge pumps, wind generator, balance, aesthetics, etc etc --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hollowayjoshua" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > What topics/chapters are covered in your book? I'm not a welder, but I get the feeling that there are other topics. > Thanks, > Josh > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > When you order books and plans by postal money order, please send only international money orders , not those internal ones, especially not US internal postal money orders. It says right on them that they can only be cashed in the US. In Canada they can be hard to get cashed. > > Thanks > > Brent > > > | 28976|28960|2012-10-01 21:28:16|Doug Jackson|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|No. No more boats that sink.  Yeah, one hand operation is a really good point.  It's would be a pain to have to set something down in order to open a door all the time. And the more it stays shut the more it will have a chance to do it's job.  So leaver action it is.  Thanks   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 6:41 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door   Good find Doug! Airtight door is better than watertight in case of fire and it has all design and adjustment details there. Easy operation is the key. You really want to be able to open, close and lock the door just with one hand. "Locking wheel" door usually requires 2 hands to operate. Hey, Doug, do you plan to have "submarine mode" for your boat as well? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Oh!  Found a good document, with better detail: http://www.hnsa.org/doc/nstm/ch600-1.pdf%c3%82%c2%a0%c3%82%c2%a0 > > Wheel or leaver will both work, what I really want is easy to build.  There are 3 doors, all open past 90 degrees if needed.  We have 4 watertight bulkheads, and 3 will have doors.  And we have that because we're a work boat for diver support, salvage and recovery.  We plan to get close to the things that sent other boats to the bottom. :) >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Darren Bos > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 3:20 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > >   > > Doug, the first thing I thought > when looking at the door with the wheel in the > middle is that it looks like a pain in the butt > for when the door is open (which is hopefully > most of the time). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28977|28960|2012-10-02 00:25:06|Mark Hamill|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|Doug: Just a comment meant in all respect. Thomas Firth Jones http://www.jonesboats.com/ wrote an interesiting section in one of his books cautioning about the pitfalls of trying to prepare for eventualities that are never likely to happen, such as the case of an Atlantic crossing in a boat that the owner had almost completely foamed in the main hull out of fear of sinking such that they had to sleep in the cockpit. I did see an article in Wooden Boat recently about a guy that put a water tight door blocking off the V berth which he had converted to storage. He thought the sinking impact would be forward of the bulkhead. It was a 25 foot plywood boat--not steel. I worked in one shop where we installed a couple of the YachtSaver inflatable bag systems. The manufacturer decided they couldn't guarantee the bags would make the boat unsinkable and went out of business after 9 years. From what I have seen, the problem does not seem to be that the boats sink which they do, but that people abandon boats out of fright in storms---- significantly the boats keep on sailing without them. Whales and floating heavy things have sunk some boats but I don't think there would be much problem on a steel hull like Brents within reason--especially whales. As far as I have seen on discussions on the internet there are no unsinkable cruising monohull sailboats made. Multihulls float. Google Yachtsaver and look at some of the discussions that come up about unsinkable boats. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28978|28960|2012-10-02 07:45:43|Matt Malone|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |I thought of something like a YachtSaver system, but a little calculation shows that, to provide the flotation that would be greater than the weight of the yacht, it would fill most of the cabin, to the point that one could no longer enter the cabin. Lets say the boat is 6 tons -- that is a cylindrical bag 6 meters long and 1.2meters in diameter (19.5' x 4'). Put that down the central corridor in any 6 ton boat, and there is no room to get around inside. And things like the salon table could hold it up to the ceiling. In general, all the nooks and crannies and crawl spaces would fill with water. It would occupy all human space. Flotation is much better distributed around just the hull. A steel boat is a really good start, but I see no problem with dividing a 36' boat into 3 compartments with a deck hatch to each. It would not be hard for each compartment to contain more air volume than needed to keep the boat floating, two filled with air and the boat would be quite livable. The problem would be engine placement. I am not sure that there would be a lot of work in putting the bulkheads in during construction, or much problem in having them practically sealable or inconvenience in their being there. I already have a wood door between my v-berth and salon and another wood door between my salon and volume below the cockpit. If they were more functional doors as well, no problemo. And practically sealable to me means, they leak slow enough I can eat, sleep, bail and do some work to correct the problem, indefinitely. There are plenty of ways to make a door fit that requirement. Yes it means some attention to welding, and yes the bulkhead might show in a slight distortion of the hull, and yes, more attention needs to be paid to routing systems. It is either that maybe 6" of foam over the entire hull, or some pseudo-double hull made up of sealed storage lockers. One can always hang a wood door over the bulkhead opening, and it is still effectively separating the bilge and keeping spray (from a broken vent or hatch) confined to one section. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 21:24:55 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door Doug: Just a comment meant in all respect. Thomas Firth Jones http://www.jonesboats.com/ wrote an interesiting section in one of his books cautioning about the pitfalls of trying to prepare for eventualities that are never likely to happen, such as the case of an Atlantic crossing in a boat that the owner had almost completely foamed in the main hull out of fear of sinking such that they had to sleep in the cockpit. I did see an article in Wooden Boat recently about a guy that put a water tight door blocking off the V berth which he had converted to storage. He thought the sinking impact would be forward of the bulkhead. It was a 25 foot plywood boat--not steel. I worked in one shop where we installed a couple of the YachtSaver inflatable bag systems. The manufacturer decided they couldn't guarantee the bags would make the boat unsinkable and went out of business after 9 years. From what I have seen, the problem does not seem to be that the boats sink which they do, but that people abandon boats out of fright in storms---- significantly the boats keep on sailing without them. Whales and floating heavy things have sunk some boats but I don't think there would be much problem on a steel hull like Brents within reason--especially whales. As far as I have seen on discussions on the internet there are no unsinkable cruising monohull sailboats made. Multihulls float. Google Yachtsaver and look at some of the discussions that come up about unsinkable boats. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28979|28960|2012-10-02 08:30:25|Doug Jackson|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|Thanks!  I'm going to save this one.  I think this is the first time anyone as ever cautioned me about being too safe. :) Seriously, it's a good points to consider.  Especially abandoning a boat that is still on the surface.  Although I understand the mindset of someone that is exhausted from fighting to stay in control.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 11:24 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door   Doug: Just a comment meant in all respect. Thomas Firth Jones http://www.jonesboats.com/ wrote an interesiting section in one of his books cautioning about the pitfalls of trying to prepare for eventualities that are never likely to happen, such as the case of an Atlantic crossing in a boat that the owner had almost completely foamed in the main hull out of fear of sinking such that they had to sleep in the cockpit. I did see an article in Wooden Boat recently about a guy that put a water tight door blocking off the V berth which he had converted to storage. He thought the sinking impact would be forward of the bulkhead. It was a 25 foot plywood boat--not steel. I worked in one shop where we installed a couple of the YachtSaver inflatable bag systems. The manufacturer decided they couldn't guarantee the bags would make the boat unsinkable and went out of business after 9 years. From what I have seen, the problem does not seem to be that the boats sink which they do, but that people abandon boats out of fright in storms---- significantly the boats keep on sailing without them. Whales and floating heavy things have sunk some boats but I don't think there would be much problem on a steel hull like Brents within reason--especially whales. As far as I have seen on discussions on the internet there are no unsinkable cruising monohull sailboats made. Multihulls float. Google Yachtsaver and look at some of the discussions that come up about unsinkable boats. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28980|28960|2012-10-02 16:25:44|brentswain38|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Tape an inch of foasm to a piece of 1/8th steel plate. Throw it overboard and it will float. Takes 1 1/2 inch foam to float 3/16th plate. So how much overkill do you need to float the ballast, engine and everything that wont float on it's own? Wood interiors have bouyancy equal to their weight. So most of the interior is buoyancy. So is a sealed mast. One 36 had 3 inchs of foam sprayed in. It is unsinkable, as that is a 100% overkill, far more than any weight, above the shell weight and sinkables. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > I thought of something like a YachtSaver system, but a little calculation shows that, to provide the flotation that would be greater than the weight of the yacht, it would fill most of the cabin, to the point that one could no longer enter the cabin. Lets say the boat is 6 tons -- that is a cylindrical bag 6 meters long and 1.2meters in diameter (19.5' x 4'). Put that down the central corridor in any 6 ton boat, and there is no room to get around inside. And things like the salon table could hold it up to the ceiling. In general, all the nooks and crannies and crawl spaces would fill with water. It would occupy all human space. Flotation is much better distributed around just the hull. > > A steel boat is a really good start, but I see no problem with dividing a 36' boat into 3 compartments with a deck hatch to each. It would not be hard for each compartment to contain more air volume than needed to keep the boat floating, two filled with air and the boat would be quite livable. The problem would be engine placement. I am not sure that there would be a lot of work in putting the bulkheads in during construction, or much problem in having them practically sealable or inconvenience in their being there. I already have a wood door between my v-berth and salon and another wood door between my salon and volume below the cockpit. If they were more functional doors as well, no problemo. And practically sealable to me means, they leak slow enough I can eat, sleep, bail and do some work to correct the problem, indefinitely. There are plenty of ways to make a door fit that requirement. Yes it means some attention to welding, and yes the bulkhead might show in a slight distortion of the hull, and yes, more attention needs to be paid to routing systems. > > It is either that maybe 6" of foam over the entire hull, or some pseudo-double hull made up of sealed storage lockers. > > One can always hang a wood door over the bulkhead opening, and it is still effectively separating the bilge and keeping spray (from a broken vent or hatch) confined to one section. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 21:24:55 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug: Just a comment meant in all respect. Thomas Firth Jones http://www.jonesboats.com/ wrote an interesiting section in one of his books cautioning about the pitfalls of trying to prepare for eventualities that are never likely to happen, such as the case of an Atlantic crossing in a boat that the owner had almost completely foamed in the main hull out of fear of sinking such that they had to sleep in the cockpit. > > I did see an article in Wooden Boat recently about a guy that put a water tight door blocking off the V berth which he had converted to storage. He thought the sinking impact would be forward of the bulkhead. It was a 25 foot plywood boat--not steel. > > I worked in one shop where we installed a couple of the YachtSaver inflatable bag systems. The manufacturer decided they couldn't guarantee the bags would make the boat unsinkable and went out of business after 9 years. From what I have seen, the problem does not seem to be that the boats sink which they do, but that people abandon boats out of fright in storms---- significantly the boats keep on sailing without them. Whales and floating heavy things have sunk some boats but I don't think there would be much problem on a steel hull like Brents within reason--especially whales. As far as I have seen on discussions on the internet there are no unsinkable cruising monohull sailboats made. Multihulls float. Google Yachtsaver and look at some of the discussions that come up about unsinkable boats. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 28981|28960|2012-10-02 16:39:49|Paul Wilson|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |On 3/10/2012 9:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > Tape an inch of foasm to a piece of 1/8th steel plate. Throw it > overboard and it will float. Takes 1 1/2 inch foam to float 3/16th > plate. So how much overkill do you need to float the ballast, engine > and everything that wont float on it's own? Wood interiors have > bouyancy equal to their weight. So most of the interior is buoyancy. > So is a sealed mast. One 36 had 3 inchs of foam sprayed in. It is > unsinkable, as that is a 100% overkill, far more than any weight, > above the shell weight and sinkables. I can't see a steel boat like your designs ever getting a hole in the hull if they are well maintained. Plumbing problems may sink it one day but even that is highly unlikely if you keep the valves closed when you are not using them. It is easy to plug a hole with a bung or two if you are having a bad day. Fire to me is the biggest danger. If I had an uncontrollable fire, I would shut all the hatches and jump in the dingy or life raft until it went out. The water inside the hoses should keep them from burning but if not I could dive down and shove the bungs in to the hull fittings from the outside. This might be unrealistic but it is a plan. Paul| 28982|28960|2012-10-02 19:05:31|wild_explorer|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Brent's 36 footer has displacement about 10 tonnes (~ 10 cub. meters). Surface of the hull's shell (inside only) is about 50 sq.meters. So, the foam's thickness would be ~ 10/50=0.2 meter (about 8 inches). Plus you need to adjust thickness of the foam to compensate weight of 10 cub.meters of foam. Does not look so bad even with 10 inches of foam inside the hull ;) P.S. I assumed that all foam is in the hull's shell, just to keep wheelhouse above the water ;)))| 28983|28960|2012-10-02 19:57:31|Paul Wilson|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |I am not sure about the calculations but I think Brent is right. I cut out a porthole with foam on it. 1/8 inch steel with one inch of foam floated so 3/16 inch on the hull with 1 1/2 inch of foam will float too. If you really want it to not sink, extra floatation should only need to compensate for the lead in the keel and the machinery. With a wood interior and tanks that might hold some air, I agree with Brent that 3 or 4 inches of foam would probably prevent the boat from sinking...my guess is it probably be a wet ride. I would never put 8 inches of foam in the 36...the loss of interior space would be too high of a price. Filling lockers with floatation is also a high price to pay when it comes to lost storage I might consider a water tight door or bulkhead but never felt the need....the chance of holing the steel hull is slim and there are much better things to worry about. If you are really worried about it, how about blowing your inflatable dinghy up down below? You could use a scuba tank to blow it up pretty quick. That would add a ton or two of buoyancy in an emergency if you thought you were going down. It might not be enough but you could factor it in. Paul On 3/10/2012 12:05 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Brent's 36 footer has displacement about 10 tonnes (~ 10 cub. meters). > Surface of the hull's shell (inside only) is about 50 sq.meters. > > So, the foam's thickness would be ~ 10/50=0.2 meter (about 8 inches). > Plus you need to adjust thickness of the foam to compensate weight of > 10 cub.meters of foam. > > Does not look so bad even with 10 inches of foam inside the hull ;) > > P.S. I assumed that all foam is in the hull's shell, just to keep > wheelhouse above the water ;))) > > | 28984|28960|2012-10-02 22:26:13|Matt Malone|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Foam for thermal insulation, reduction of condensation is great. Foam for flotation, crap, and, it is survival on an awash deck. Two bulkheads where you would put walls anyway are little trouble, stepping over a 18-24" door frame in the main hall puts the doorframe above the waterline outside, before considering water tight doors. That is a lot of time to think. If one section develops a problem, one has 2/3 of the space to make due quite comfortably while you find a solution. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 12:54:57 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > I am not sure about the calculations but I think Brent is right. I cut > out a porthole with foam on it. 1/8 inch steel with one inch of foam > floated so 3/16 inch on the hull with 1 1/2 inch of foam will float too. > If you really want it to not sink, extra floatation should only need to > compensate for the lead in the keel and the machinery. With a wood > interior and tanks that might hold some air, I agree with Brent that 3 > or 4 inches of foam would probably prevent the boat from sinking...my > guess is it probably be a wet ride. > > I would never put 8 inches of foam in the 36...the loss of interior > space would be too high of a price. Filling lockers with floatation is > also a high price to pay when it comes to lost storage I might consider > a water tight door or bulkhead but never felt the need....the chance of > holing the steel hull is slim and there are much better things to worry > about. > > If you are really worried about it, how about blowing your inflatable > dinghy up down below? You could use a scuba tank to blow it up pretty > quick. That would add a ton or two of buoyancy in an emergency if you > thought you were going down. It might not be enough but you could factor > it in. > > Paul > > On 3/10/2012 12:05 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > Brent's 36 footer has displacement about 10 tonnes (~ 10 cub. meters). > > Surface of the hull's shell (inside only) is about 50 sq.meters. > > > > So, the foam's thickness would be ~ 10/50=0.2 meter (about 8 inches). > > Plus you need to adjust thickness of the foam to compensate weight of > > 10 cub.meters of foam. > > > > Does not look so bad even with 10 inches of foam inside the hull ;) > > > > P.S. I assumed that all foam is in the hull's shell, just to keep > > wheelhouse above the water ;))) > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 28985|28960|2012-10-03 00:33:21|Aaron|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |  I really think if one is so worried about sinking that being out on the ocean would be a very poor choice for reducing stress. ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight Door I am not sure about the calculations but I think Brent is right. I cut out a porthole with foam on it. 1/8 inch steel with one inch of foam floated so 3/16 inch on the hull with 1 1/2 inch of foam will float too. If you really want it to not sink, extra floatation should only need to compensate for the lead in the keel and the machinery. With a wood interior and tanks that might hold some air, I agree with Brent that 3 or 4 inches of foam would probably prevent the boat from sinking...my guess is it probably be a wet ride. I would never put 8 inches of foam in the 36...the loss of interior space would be too high of a price. Filling lockers with floatation is also a high price to pay when it comes to lost storage I might consider a water tight door or bulkhead but never felt the need....the chance of holing the steel hull is slim and there are much better things to worry about. If you are really worried about it, how about blowing your inflatable dinghy up down below? You could use a scuba tank to blow it up pretty quick. That would add a ton or two of buoyancy in an emergency if you thought you were going down. It might not be enough but you could factor it in. Paul On 3/10/2012 12:05 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Brent's 36 footer has displacement about 10 tonnes (~ 10 cub. meters). > Surface of the hull's shell (inside only) is about 50 sq.meters. > > So, the foam's thickness would be ~ 10/50=0.2 meter (about 8 inches). > Plus you need to adjust thickness of the foam to compensate weight of > 10 cub.meters of foam. > > Does not look so bad even with 10 inches of foam inside the hull ;) > > P.S. I assumed that all foam is in the hull's shell, just to keep > wheelhouse above the water ;))) > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28986|28960|2012-10-03 08:54:31|Robert Jones|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Paul, it think you are right about fire be a higher priority than sinking, but as a note from a retired firefighter, most(not all) rubber and all PVC will melt, or burn away around the fluid in a short time. The flash point of PVC is around the same as non-assisted(no oil) wood. Around 450C. It will begin to melt away before that temp.When it is significantly weak, the pressure on the inside of the hose will eventually cause it to burst. But at least then, your fire will be put out!  The flash on rubber is usually lower. I have attached the flash temps of some common items. You can use them to figure whether you have a cabin fire or engine room fire and what you have in there that might burn and at what temps. . http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html#1.3 --- On Tue, 10/2/12, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight Door To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 2:37 PM   On 3/10/2012 9:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > Tape an inch of foasm to a piece of 1/8th steel plate. Throw it > overboard and it will float. Takes 1 1/2 inch foam to float 3/16th > plate. So how much overkill do you need to float the ballast, engine > and everything that wont float on it's own? Wood interiors have > bouyancy equal to their weight. So most of the interior is buoyancy. > So is a sealed mast. One 36 had 3 inchs of foam sprayed in. It is > unsinkable, as that is a 100% overkill, far more than any weight, > above the shell weight and sinkables. I can't see a steel boat like your designs ever getting a hole in the hull if they are well maintained. Plumbing problems may sink it one day but even that is highly unlikely if you keep the valves closed when you are not using them. It is easy to plug a hole with a bung or two if you are having a bad day. Fire to me is the biggest danger. If I had an uncontrollable fire, I would shut all the hatches and jump in the dingy or life raft until it went out. The water inside the hoses should keep them from burning but if not I could dive down and shove the bungs in to the hull fittings from the outside. This might be unrealistic but it is a plan. Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28987|28960|2012-10-03 08:59:12|Tom Pee|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|Most wood boats dont need to worry about sinking if holed plus they have built in insulation. ________________________________ From: Doug Jackson To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door   No. No more boats that sink.  Yeah, one hand operation is a really good point.  It's would be a pain to have to set something down in order to open a door all the time. And the more it stays shut the more it will have a chance to do it's job.  So leaver action it is.  Thanks   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 6:41 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door   Good find Doug! Airtight door is better than watertight in case of fire and it has all design and adjustment details there. Easy operation is the key. You really want to be able to open, close and lock the door just with one hand. "Locking wheel" door usually requires 2 hands to operate. Hey, Doug, do you plan to have "submarine mode" for your boat as well? --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Oh!  Found a good document, with better detail: http://www.hnsa.org/doc/nstm/ch600-1.pdf%c3%82%c2%a0%c3%82%c2%a0 > > Wheel or leaver will both work, what I really want is easy to build.  There are 3 doors, all open past 90 degrees if needed.  We have 4 watertight bulkheads, and 3 will have doors.  And we have that because we're a work boat for diver support, salvage and recovery.  We plan to get close to the things that sent other boats to the bottom. :) >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Darren Bos > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 3:20 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > >   > > Doug, the first thing I thought > when looking at the door with the wheel in the > middle is that it looks like a pain in the butt > for when the door is open (which is hopefully > most of the time). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28988|28960|2012-10-03 13:19:58|Paul Wilson|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Thanks for that. It is always something I wondered about but wasn't will to experiment with :). Cheers, Paul On 4/10/2012 1:54 a.m., Robert Jones wrote: > Paul, it think you are right about fire be a higher priority than > sinking, but as a note from a retired firefighter, most(not all) > rubber and all PVC will melt, or burn away around the fluid in a short > time. The flash point of PVC is around the same as non-assisted(no > oil) wood. Around 450C. It will begin to melt away before that > temp.When it is significantly weak, the pressure on the inside of the > hose will eventually cause it to burst. But at least then, your fire > will be put out! The flash on rubber is usually lower. I have > attached the flash temps of some common items. You can use them to > figure whether you have a cabin fire or engine room fire and what you > have in there that might burn and at what temps. > . http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html#1.3 | 28989|28960|2012-10-04 00:19:45|wild_explorer|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |I was thinking about bulkheads... For origami boat, bulkhead better to be beyond darts (transition of hard chine). This way, even failure of the welds (which is unlikely) of the hull shell, will allow to keep flotation. But if you separate 40ft boat in 3 compartments, 2 compartments (aft & fore) will be too small - only about 6-8ft long on waterline level. The vessel > 65ft, or if vessel (any length) is operated on an exposed waters, it is required to have collision bulkheads according to USCG. So, on small boat you need to find some kind of compromise to have bulkheads and maintaining liveable space. If follow to USCG guide, location of collision bulkhead should be 5-15% of LBP (or WL length)... Simply from bow waterline perpendicular measured aft = 5-15% of WL --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Foam for thermal insulation, reduction of condensation is great. > > Foam for flotation, crap, and, it is survival on an awash deck. > > Two bulkheads where you would put walls anyway are little trouble, stepping over a 18-24" door frame in the main hall puts the doorframe above the waterline outside, before considering water tight doors. That is a lot of time to think. If one section develops a problem, one has 2/3 of the space to make due quite comfortably while you find a solution. > > Matt | 28990|28960|2012-10-04 00:59:45|Aaron|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Wild The rules you are refering to are they for home built boats for personal use or something for resale and or charter. Unless they have change in the last 10 years I believe the rules  you are refering to are geared towards Charter for hire and building for resale markets. By using 5% the bulkhead for the BS 36 would be just about where Brent puts the plate for the foward deck locker. Aaron ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 8:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight Door   I was thinking about bulkheads... For origami boat, bulkhead better to be beyond darts (transition of hard chine). This way, even failure of the welds (which is unlikely) of the hull shell, will allow to keep flotation. But if you separate 40ft boat in 3 compartments, 2 compartments (aft & fore) will be too small - only about 6-8ft long on waterline level. The vessel > 65ft, or if vessel (any length) is operated on an exposed waters, it is required to have collision bulkheads according to USCG. So, on small boat you need to find some kind of compromise to have bulkheads and maintaining liveable space. If follow to USCG guide, location of collision bulkhead should be 5-15% of LBP (or WL length)... Simply from bow waterline perpendicular measured aft = 5-15% of WL --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Foam for thermal insulation, reduction of condensation is great. > > Foam for flotation, crap, and, it is survival on an awash deck. > > Two bulkheads where you would put walls anyway are little trouble, stepping over a 18-24" door frame in the main hall puts the doorframe above the waterline outside, before considering water tight doors. That is a lot of time to think. If one section develops a problem, one has 2/3 of the space to make due quite comfortably while you find a solution. > > Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28991|28991|2012-10-04 08:24:14|zethkinnett@ymail.com|what grade of sheet steel for hull?|THIS PLACE I'M GOING TO GET A QUOTE FROM HAS A BILLION OPTIONS. HOT ROLLED CARBON STEEL A36, ASTM A572 GRADE 50, S235JR, S355J, ST37-2, ST52-3, S355MC, S700MC, DIN 1543, EN 10029, EN 10051, EN 10025-2, EN 10149-2 OR COLD ROLLED CARBON STEEL 1005, 1008, 1010, DC01, DIN 1541, DIN 1623, EN 10130| 28992|28960|2012-10-04 09:55:36|M.J. Malone|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |What does it matter where bulkheads are placed relative to the waterline? More than half of the forward cabin of my boat is in the overhang above the waterline. There are many places a bulkhead may be placed. Making the aft wall of the forward deck locker a bulkhead, for my boat, puts 3 tons of flotation far forward. A 10metre boat, with a 3m beam might easily have 60 cubic metres of volume in it. What do you need? 7 cubic metres to keep it positive? Bulkheads need not be inconveniently placed to be effective. I would divide the living space at least in half, so you have redundancy in dry living space. It is not sinking that bothers me so much as being absolutely miserable and unable to comfortably meet daily needs when for some stupid but not boat-threatening reason, 200 gallons of water starts sloshing from end to end in the boat, even 200 miles from a port. I have a greater ability to cope and self-repair, the magnitude of the setback is smaller, less food gets wet, whatever. Mental state is important. So if 3 larger compartments are not convenient, then 4, 2 large ones that are the main living area, and a smaller fore and aft locker, if a locker gets water in it, who cares, rope or wrenches or buckets or chain gets wet. If a living compartment gets wet, it is an inconvenience. If a living compartment fills to equalize with the ocean, there is a dry compartment at the bow or stern to keep positive flotation (keep the bow up in the case it is the forward living space that fills). Sailing is still an option, as is eating, sleeping, and reading a dry manual. In this case only one living space bulkhead is needed. Could the salon table top or one panel of it double as a panel to fill the doorway with all clamping dogs mounted in the door frame? No water tight door to get in the way the rest of the time. And who doesn't appreciate a nice thick slab of a table. Resale value might also be another reason, because it is easily done at construction time. Matt wild_explorer wrote: I was thinking about bulkheads... For origami boat, bulkhead better to be beyond darts (transition of hard chine). This way, even failure of the welds (which is unlikely) of the hull shell, will allow to keep flotation. But if you separate 40ft boat in 3 compartments, 2 compartments (aft & fore) will be too small - only about 6-8ft long on waterline level. The vessel > 65ft, or if vessel (any length) is operated on an exposed waters, it is required to have collision bulkheads according to USCG. So, on small boat you need to find some kind of compromise to have bulkheads and maintaining liveable space. If follow to USCG guide, location of collision bulkhead should be 5-15% of LBP (or WL length)... Simply from bow waterline perpendicular measured aft = 5-15% of WL --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Foam for thermal insulation, reduction of condensation is great. > > Foam for flotation, crap, and, it is survival on an awash deck. > > Two bulkheads where you would put walls anyway are little trouble, stepping over a 18-24" door frame in the main hall puts the doorframe above the waterline outside, before considering water tight doors. That is a lot of time to think. If one section develops a problem, one has 2/3 of the space to make due quite comfortably while you find a solution. > > Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 28993|28991|2012-10-04 10:34:37|wild_explorer|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Most common available marine ABS grades A or B steel (reasonably priced) is A36 and A131. Just check if it is certified by ABS (usually double certification for construction and marine use). P.S. ABS grade steel should come with manufacturer's certificate of compliance. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@..." wrote: > > THIS PLACE I'M GOING TO GET A QUOTE FROM HAS A BILLION OPTIONS. > > HOT ROLLED > CARBON STEEL > A36, ASTM A572 GRADE 50, S235JR, S355J, ST37-2, ST52-3, S355MC, S700MC, DIN 1543, EN 10029, EN 10051, EN 10025-2, EN 10149-2 > > OR > > COLD ROLLED > CARBON STEEL > 1005, 1008, 1010, DC01, DIN 1541, DIN 1623, EN 10130 > | 28994|28991|2012-10-04 11:02:48|zethkinnett@ymail.com|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|I found somewhere online that A131-A is often used in ships? I sort of read elsewhere about A36 which seems to just be standard mild hot rolled steel? What would be better? hot or cold? does it matter? Someone should create a file on here about steel types for boat building. That would be great knowledge to have. I'd share if I knew but I don't... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@..." wrote: > > THIS PLACE I'M GOING TO GET A QUOTE FROM HAS A BILLION OPTIONS. > > HOT ROLLED > CARBON STEEL > A36, ASTM A572 GRADE 50, S235JR, S355J, ST37-2, ST52-3, S355MC, S700MC, DIN 1543, EN 10029, EN 10051, EN 10025-2, EN 10149-2 > > OR > > COLD ROLLED > CARBON STEEL > 1005, 1008, 1010, DC01, DIN 1541, DIN 1623, EN 10130 > | 28995|28960|2012-10-04 19:47:31|wild_explorer|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Aaron, more likely you are right about different requirements for recreational and commercial use of a boat (charter, fishing, etc). The main point is, that it is not so hard to bring origami boat to USCG safety requirements, as well as ABS. And it does not take too much effort to do so. Of cause, someone can get very creative building his/her boat for recreational purpose, but if you will be able to register a boat as commercial, it will greatly increase its resale value. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Wild > The rules you are refering to are they for home built boats for personal use or something for resale and or charter. Unless they have change in the last 10 years I believe the rules  you are refering to are geared towards Charter for hire and building for resale markets. > By using 5% the bulkhead for the BS 36 would be just about where Brent puts the plate for the foward deck locker. > Aaron | 28996|28991|2012-10-04 20:30:38|wild_explorer|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|ABS does not really specify what to use for Ordinary Strength Hull Structural Steel. It just should meet ABS requirements (pass the tests at steel mill) for ABS grade A, B, D, E, DS, CS. Different climate conditions (where boat is used) may require different grade for the hull. I think, that for origami boat is more important Elongation (%). More is better. When I was looking for hull's steel, one company had all kind of exotic steels, but not ABS grades. A36 steel plates are available in ABS grades. It just means that it passed all the tests required by ABS and can be used for the boat/ship construction. Just ask supplier for ABS grade steel. If company does not know what it is, call another one. The company which have ABS grades, will tell you what ASTM steel they have in ABS grades. P.S. I assume that you are in USA - different countries may have different requirements for boatbuilding. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@..." wrote: > > I found somewhere online that A131-A is often used in ships? I sort of read elsewhere about A36 which seems to just be standard mild hot rolled steel? What would be better? hot or cold? does it matter? Someone should create a file on here about steel types for boat building. That would be great knowledge to have. I'd share if I knew but I don't... > | 28997|28997|2012-10-04 21:01:16|brentswain38|Yahoo screwups?|A friend on this site was told by yahoo that he was blocked from yahoo, including emails, unless he gave them a phone number. Many of us dont even have a phone. Do we also get blocked ? Does any one know how to get around this scam?| 28998|28960|2012-10-04 21:05:25|brentswain38|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Absolutely true. Very litgle chanc eof anythign puctturing that smal ahgull with that thick aplate. There is just not enough momentum. With a composting head, and keel cooling, it's easy to eliminate most, if not all thru hulls. There is not enough air inside a sealed hull to keep any fire burning for long. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > On 3/10/2012 9:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Tape an inch of foasm to a piece of 1/8th steel plate. Throw it > > overboard and it will float. Takes 1 1/2 inch foam to float 3/16th > > plate. So how much overkill do you need to float the ballast, engine > > and everything that wont float on it's own? Wood interiors have > > bouyancy equal to their weight. So most of the interior is buoyancy. > > So is a sealed mast. One 36 had 3 inchs of foam sprayed in. It is > > unsinkable, as that is a 100% overkill, far more than any weight, > > above the shell weight and sinkables. > > I can't see a steel boat like your designs ever getting a hole in the > hull if they are well maintained. Plumbing problems may sink it one day > but even that is highly unlikely if you keep the valves closed when you > are not using them. It is easy to plug a hole with a bung or two if you > are having a bad day. Fire to me is the biggest danger. If I had an > uncontrollable fire, I would shut all the hatches and jump in the dingy > or life raft until it went out. The water inside the hoses should keep > them from burning but if not I could dive down and shove the bungs in to > the hull fittings from the outside. This might be unrealistic but it is > a plan. > > Paul > | 28999|28960|2012-10-04 21:31:39|brentswain38|Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door|Wood boats with balast and machinery wil sink much faster than ay metal hull,as the hole resulting from any collision wil be much larger. Wood is piss poor insulation, compared to sprayfoam. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > Most wood boats dont need to worry about sinking if holed plus they have built in insulation. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Doug Jackson > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 9:28 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > >   > > No. No more boats that sink.  Yeah, one hand operation is a really good point.  It's would be a pain to have to set something down in order to open a door all the time. And the more it stays shut the more it will have a chance to do it's job.  So leaver action it is.  > > Thanks >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 6:41 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > >   > Good find Doug! Airtight door is better than watertight in case of fire and it has all design and adjustment details there. > > Easy operation is the key. You really want to be able to open, close and lock the door just with one hand. "Locking wheel" door usually requires 2 hands to operate. > > Hey, Doug, do you plan to have "submarine mode" for your boat as well? > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > Oh!  Found a good document, with better detail: http://www.hnsa.org/doc/nstm/ch600-1.pdf%c3%83%c2%82%c3%82%c2%a0%c3%83%c2%82%c3%82%c2%a0 > > > > Wheel or leaver will both work, what I really want is easy to build.  There are 3 doors, all open past 90 degrees if needed.  We have 4 watertight bulkheads, and 3 will have doors.  And we have that because we're a work boat for diver support, salvage and recovery.  We plan to get close to the things that sent other boats to the bottom. :) > >   > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Darren Bos > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 3:20 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > > > > >   > > > > Doug, the first thing I thought > > when looking at the door with the wheel in the > > middle is that it looks like a pain in the butt > > for when the door is open (which is hopefully > > most of the time). > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29000|28960|2012-10-04 21:36:41|wild_explorer|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Well... Under waterline is endless source of water if hull is damaged below it. That why placement of bulkheads is measured in relation to waterline. Sailboat is different animal, but the right placement of bulkheads is important as well... Usually sailboat has overhang at the bow. You want take water as less as possible during collision. Usually, boat is damaged at bow, transom or at bottom. That why I like big water/fuel tank between twin keels. It is watertight bulkhead. Yes, you lose water or fuel, but you will not take more outside water into the hull. It serves as double bottom. Making bulkhead in overhanged bow several feet above waterline does not make any sense, no matter how much flotation you have there - water must reach that level first (what we are trying to avoid). But making watertight storage at bow & transom (for something not critical for boat survival), which is below and above waterline and connect vertical bulkhead to it is a good idea. So, it is not just simply dividing space in a boat. You really do not want to be "bow-up" or "stern-up" because of poor placement of bulkhead. If you get water inside the hull, boat will have completely different stability. Even with small watertight compartment and hole in the hull inside it, stability of the boat will be affected. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > What does it matter where bulkheads are placed relative to the waterline? More than half of the forward cabin of my boat is in the overhang above the waterline. There are many places a bulkhead may be placed. Making the aft wall of the forward deck locker a bulkhead, for my boat, puts 3 tons of flotation far forward. A 10metre boat, with a 3m beam might easily have 60 cubic metres of volume in it. What do you need? 7 cubic metres to keep it positive? Bulkheads need not be inconveniently placed to be effective. I would divide the living space at least in half, so you have redundancy in dry living space. > |