29001|28991|2012-10-04 21:39:52|brentswain38|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Any steel boat will sail right thru any ABS approved non metal hull with minimal, if any dammage, regardless of what kind of mild steel she is build of , or whether she is ABS approved or not.ABS approval on any small steel boat, is like the long term weather forecast, as described by one meteorologist, interviewed on CBC radio. "Meaningless and useless, only given because people demand it." Small metal boats are so grossly overstrength, many many times the strength of equivalent non metal boats, that they simply dont fail, structurally . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > ABS does not really specify what to use for Ordinary Strength Hull Structural Steel. It just should meet ABS requirements (pass the tests at steel mill) for ABS grade A, B, D, E, DS, CS. Different climate conditions (where boat is used) may require different grade for the hull. > > I think, that for origami boat is more important Elongation (%). More is better. > > When I was looking for hull's steel, one company had all kind of exotic steels, but not ABS grades. > > A36 steel plates are available in ABS grades. It just means that it passed all the tests required by ABS and can be used for the boat/ship construction. > > Just ask supplier for ABS grade steel. If company does not know what it is, call another one. The company which have ABS grades, will tell you what ASTM steel they have in ABS grades. > > P.S. I assume that you are in USA - different countries may have different requirements for boatbuilding. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@" wrote: > > > > I found somewhere online that A131-A is often used in ships? I sort of read elsewhere about A36 which seems to just be standard mild hot rolled steel? What would be better? hot or cold? does it matter? Someone should create a file on here about steel types for boat building. That would be great knowledge to have. I'd share if I knew but I don't... > > > | 29002|28997|2012-10-04 21:42:27|wild_explorer|Re: Yahoo screwups?|That page has link "Remind me later" or something like that in the text. Click on it to skip that step. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A friend on this site was told by yahoo that he was blocked from yahoo, including emails, unless he gave them a phone number. Many of us dont even have a phone. Do we also get blocked ? Does any one know how to get around this scam? > | 29003|28991|2012-10-04 22:07:14|zethkinnett@ymail.com|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|I just found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABS_Steels#Basic_properties and this: http://www.eagle.org/eagleExternalPortalWEB/ShowProperty/BEA%20Repository/Rules&Guides/Current/37_OffshoreRacingYachts/Guide and this but this is all over my head. hurts to even look at it. http://www.eagle.org/eagleExternalPortalWEB/ShowProperty/BEA%20Repository/Rules&Guides/Current/5_Under90_2012/part3 interesting stuff boring to read through --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Any steel boat will sail right thru any ABS approved non metal hull with minimal, if any dammage, regardless of what kind of mild steel she is build of , or whether she is ABS approved or not.ABS approval on any small steel boat, is like the long term weather forecast, as described by one meteorologist, interviewed on CBC radio. "Meaningless and useless, only given because people demand it." > Small metal boats are so grossly overstrength, many many times the strength of equivalent non metal boats, that they simply dont fail, structurally . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > ABS does not really specify what to use for Ordinary Strength Hull Structural Steel. It just should meet ABS requirements (pass the tests at steel mill) for ABS grade A, B, D, E, DS, CS. Different climate conditions (where boat is used) may require different grade for the hull. > > > > I think, that for origami boat is more important Elongation (%). More is better. > > > > When I was looking for hull's steel, one company had all kind of exotic steels, but not ABS grades. > > > > A36 steel plates are available in ABS grades. It just means that it passed all the tests required by ABS and can be used for the boat/ship construction. > > > > Just ask supplier for ABS grade steel. If company does not know what it is, call another one. The company which have ABS grades, will tell you what ASTM steel they have in ABS grades. > > > > P.S. I assume that you are in USA - different countries may have different requirements for boatbuilding. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@" wrote: > > > > > > I found somewhere online that A131-A is often used in ships? I sort of read elsewhere about A36 which seems to just be standard mild hot rolled steel? What would be better? hot or cold? does it matter? Someone should create a file on here about steel types for boat building. That would be great knowledge to have. I'd share if I knew but I don't... > > > > > > | 29004|28991|2012-10-04 22:07:14|zethkinnett@ymail.com|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|ok great thanks. i'd love to hear everyones opinion on this. Brent your saying if I used A36 I wouldnt even have to bother with ABS or not because it is overbuilt? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > ABS does not really specify what to use for Ordinary Strength Hull Structural Steel. It just should meet ABS requirements (pass the tests at steel mill) for ABS grade A, B, D, E, DS, CS. Different climate conditions (where boat is used) may require different grade for the hull. > > I think, that for origami boat is more important Elongation (%). More is better. > > When I was looking for hull's steel, one company had all kind of exotic steels, but not ABS grades. > > A36 steel plates are available in ABS grades. It just means that it passed all the tests required by ABS and can be used for the boat/ship construction. > > Just ask supplier for ABS grade steel. If company does not know what it is, call another one. The company which have ABS grades, will tell you what ASTM steel they have in ABS grades. > > P.S. I assume that you are in USA - different countries may have different requirements for boatbuilding. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@" wrote: > > > > I found somewhere online that A131-A is often used in ships? I sort of read elsewhere about A36 which seems to just be standard mild hot rolled steel? What would be better? hot or cold? does it matter? Someone should create a file on here about steel types for boat building. That would be great knowledge to have. I'd share if I knew but I don't... > > > | 29005|28960|2012-10-04 22:22:17|M.J. Malone|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Take for instance a bulkhead for bow storage, entirely above the waterline in normal conditions. Now flood the next compartment back. The bow sinks, and now that forward compartment is partially submerged. To create a new balance to keep the bow up, a smaller compartment further forward will give the same up force, to balance. Yes, reducing the through hulls is a good approach. It only takes one though and a fraction of an hour to get a lot of water in a boat. There are also openings on the top, have to be, for ventilation. Yes it would take weeks for a sinkable amount of water to splash in, say around a poor/damaged hatch. Localize it. Matt wild_explorer wrote: Well... Under waterline is endless source of water if hull is damaged below it. That why placement of bulkheads is measured in relation to waterline. Sailboat is different animal, but the right placement of bulkheads is important as well... Usually sailboat has overhang at the bow. You want take water as less as possible during collision. Usually, boat is damaged at bow, transom or at bottom. That why I like big water/fuel tank between twin keels. It is watertight bulkhead. Yes, you lose water or fuel, but you will not take more outside water into the hull. It serves as double bottom. Making bulkhead in overhanged bow several feet above waterline does not make any sense, no matter how much flotation you have there - water must reach that level first (what we are trying to avoid). But making watertight storage at bow & transom (for something not critical for boat survival), which is below and above waterline and connect vertical bulkhead to it is a good idea. So, it is not just simply dividing space in a boat. You really do not want to be "bow-up" or "stern-up" because of poor placement of bulkhead. If you get water inside the hull, boat will have completely different stability. Even with small watertight compartment and hole in the hull inside it, stability of the boat will be affected. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > What does it matter where bulkheads are placed relative to the waterline? More than half of the forward cabin of my boat is in the overhang above the waterline. There are many places a bulkhead may be placed. Making the aft wall of the forward deck locker a bulkhead, for my boat, puts 3 tons of flotation far forward. A 10metre boat, with a 3m beam might easily have 60 cubic metres of volume in it. What do you need? 7 cubic metres to keep it positive? Bulkheads need not be inconveniently placed to be effective. I would divide the living space at least in half, so you have redundancy in dry living space. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29006|28991|2012-10-04 22:56:18|wild_explorer|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Brent is right, if you build a boat for yourself as recreational. We are talking about what ABS grades of steel means - not how to make a boat according to ABS rules... Look at A36 ABS grade A steel as "A36 steel with better quality control". Higher grades (B, D, E....) will have better specs for low temperature service. High strength steels (AH...) will have less elongation which is not good for origami and requires special electrodes for welding. So, use mild steel - A36. Again, "ABS grade" is steel of the same ASTM grade with better quality control. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@..." wrote: > > > ok great thanks. i'd love to hear everyones opinion on this. Brent your saying if I used A36 I wouldnt even have to bother with ABS or not because it is overbuilt? > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > ABS does not really specify what to use for Ordinary Strength Hull Structural Steel. It just should meet ABS requirements (pass the tests at steel mill) for ABS grade A, B, D, E, DS, CS. Different climate conditions (where boat is used) may require different grade for the hull. | 29007|28960|2012-10-04 23:56:12|wild_explorer|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Matt, I really like your idea "table top as a bulkhead door". It may require some unusual design, but idea itself is good. Another thing about origami boat, is that the frame holder for a bulkhead (flatbar) can be welded to a flat pattern before folding the half of the hull. This way, you will not get "the ridge" on the hull similar to what you get if you fit and weld bulkhead later on folded hull. Very simple to do it at midship. Main/remaining bulkhead's part will be welded to that flatbar later and will not give any distortion to the hull.| 29008|28991|2012-10-05 00:56:04|Paul Thompson|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|All you need is standard construction (commercial) grade mild steel. It's more than good enough, anything fancier is just taking more money off you. It won't do anything for your boat or your bank balance. Paul Thompson On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 3:56 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > Brent is right, if you build a boat for yourself as recreational. We are talking about what ABS grades of steel means - not how to make a boat according to ABS rules... > > Look at A36 ABS grade A steel as "A36 steel with better quality control". Higher grades (B, D, E....) will have better specs for low temperature service. > > High strength steels (AH...) will have less elongation which is not good for origami and requires special electrodes for welding. So, use mild steel - A36. > > Again, "ABS grade" is steel of the same ASTM grade with better quality control. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@..." wrote: >> >> >> ok great thanks. i'd love to hear everyones opinion on this. Brent your saying if I used A36 I wouldnt even have to bother with ABS or not because it is overbuilt? >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: >> > >> > ABS does not really specify what to use for Ordinary Strength Hull Structural Steel. It just should meet ABS requirements (pass the tests at steel mill) for ABS grade A, B, D, E, DS, CS. Different climate conditions (where boat is used) may require different grade for the hull. > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29009|28960|2012-10-05 07:22:01|Matt Malone|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |I think making a bulkhead that is plane in panels as opposed to skewed will not be too bad. I am not sure it will be easy to tell what will be vertical when the boat is folded and tacked together by looking at flat steel on the ground. The bulkhead may take on the shape of a near-flat lounge chair, small differences in angle between one panel and the next. I am not sure the order will help, especially since the flat bar will be a stiffener that will affect the folding process. I think you just have to accept there might be a little printing in the hull. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 03:56:09 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight Door Matt, I really like your idea "table top as a bulkhead door". It may require some unusual design, but idea itself is good. Another thing about origami boat, is that the frame holder for a bulkhead (flatbar) can be welded to a flat pattern before folding the half of the hull. This way, you will not get "the ridge" on the hull similar to what you get if you fit and weld bulkhead later on folded hull. Very simple to do it at midship. Main/remaining bulkhead's part will be welded to that flatbar later and will not give any distortion to the hull. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29010|28997|2012-10-05 10:10:00|Aaron|Re: Yahoo screwups?|Just give them the local police station number and tell them its the work phone. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 5:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Yahoo screwups?   A friend on this site was told by yahoo that he was blocked from yahoo, including emails, unless he gave them a phone number. Many of us dont even have a phone. Do we also get blocked ? Does any one know how to get around this scam? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29011|28960|2012-10-05 10:34:41|Matt Malone|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |And instead of trying to make a very flat door, or very flat bulkhead, or very strong clamps to deform one to fit the other, consider an inflatable seal: | ======== |O| -------- |O| | That is a cross-section of one edge of the bulkhead frame. The single horizontal line is the bulkhead wall. The double horizontal line is your salon table top in place as a hatch. The vertical lines are flat-bar welded at right angles to the bulkhead wall. The opening has two rings of flat bar welded around it, with a gap between. The outer ring stands away from the bulkhead more, so your hatch fits within it. The O is a length of stretchy rubber tubing, maybe heavy surgical tubing. Use some silicon to tack it into the groove so it does not want to fall out. The mechanical dogs that hold the door in place are placed around the perimeter of the door frame. Few are needed really because pressurizing the tube is what makes the seal, not the clamping of many dogs. Have a join in the tube to make it continuous, with a T leading to bicycle valves to pressurize the tube. Alternately, do not join the tube, seal the end of the tube, start it at the top of the door, going around back to the top, and fill the gap with wax. Have a fill valve on both sides of the bulkhead (epoxied through a small hole) for the seals on each side of the door -- 4 bicycle valves total per doorway. Grab the table top by the handles on the bottom / napkin holder rings / dual use handles on the top, turn it end-on, put it through the doorway to the wet side, rotate it and flip it flat to the door and pull it inside the outer ring, against the inner ring. Turn a couple of dogs by hand to hold it in place, turn the rest. Pump the appropriate valve on the dry side of the door to make a water and air tight seal. Water has a pressure of about 0.5 psi for ever foot of head. If the bottom of your opening might get 6 feet below the water, 3 psi are needed to keep the tube pressing harder against the table top / door than the water is. Pressurizing it to 10-20psi will keep the door pressed firmly against the dogs and tend to keep it from moving around. Some attention should be paid to the design of the dogs / contact points on the bottom of the table, so that the motion of the boat does not work a dog free. A fast application of some toilet seal wax all the way around before the table top goes in, and it may not even leak a drop. Because the seal is pressurized, one could get away with a few dogs, less leakage at the dog through-holes -- you want dog through-holes so the door can be opened from either side. During the hopefully 100% of the time that the bulkhead is just an open passage doorway, a C shape of trim might be held: | ---- \ |O|m| -------- | |O|m| |---- / with magnets (m) so that the inflatable tubes are not seen or exposed to normal wear and tear. On the bottom, I might put a length of C-channel steel as a solid foot tread, maybe held down by a couple of loose wing nuts at the bottom right and left of the tread area. Operation: spin the 2 wing nuts, pull the c-channel, pull the trim, pull the table, put it thogupull it in place, dog it, pump it. 2 minutes ? One minute with practice ? 5 minutes in awful conditions ? Once the door is dogged, even if not pumped, it should fit the perimeter frame closely enough that things should get far more relaxed. Yes, a big permanently hinged door is faster, but then you are constantly looking at a big permanently hinged door. And yes, the tabletop would have to be quite thick, like a good hardwood dining room table top, or hardwood workbench top because it will have between 70 and 450 pounds per square foot on it if it is holding back standing water. In the meantime, you have a salon tabletop as sturdy as a workbench top. Just try not to though-bolt a vice to the edge of it. Think of how to make the bulkhead equally strong / stiff (flat bar welded on edge), because it cannot be curved to gain stiffness like the hull. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 07:22:00 -0400 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > > > I think making a bulkhead that is plane in panels as opposed to skewed will not be too bad. I am not sure it will be easy to tell what will be vertical when the boat is folded and tacked together by looking at flat steel on the ground. The bulkhead may take on the shape of a near-flat lounge chair, small differences in angle between one panel and the next. I am not sure the order will help, especially since the flat bar will be a stiffener that will affect the folding process. I think you just have to accept there might be a little printing in the hull. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 03:56:09 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, I really like your idea "table top as a bulkhead door". It may require some unusual design, but idea itself is good. > > > > Another thing about origami boat, is that the frame holder for a bulkhead (flatbar) can be welded to a flat pattern before folding the half of the hull. This way, you will not get "the ridge" on the hull similar to what you get if you fit and weld bulkhead later on folded hull. Very simple to do it at midship. Main/remaining bulkhead's part will be welded to that flatbar later and will not give any distortion to the hull. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29012|28960|2012-10-05 14:58:45|Steve Bennett|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Rather than keeping the water out just get a really good water heater and make a floating hot tub! http://www.hottug.nl/fotos_en.htm Just need an origami version and we are all set. On Oct 4, 2012, at 7:05 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Absolutely true. Very litgle chanc eof anythign puctturing that smal ahgull with that thick aplate. There is just not enough momentum. With a composting head, and keel cooling, it's easy to eliminate most, if not all thru hulls. > There is not enough air inside a sealed hull to keep any fire burning for long. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > On 3/10/2012 9:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > Tape an inch of foasm to a piece of 1/8th steel plate. Throw it > > > overboard and it will float. Takes 1 1/2 inch foam to float 3/16th > > > plate. So how much overkill do you need to float the ballast, engine > > > and everything that wont float on it's own? Wood interiors have > > > bouyancy equal to their weight. So most of the interior is buoyancy. > > > So is a sealed mast. One 36 had 3 inchs of foam sprayed in. It is > > > unsinkable, as that is a 100% overkill, far more than any weight, > > > above the shell weight and sinkables. > > > > I can't see a steel boat like your designs ever getting a hole in the > > hull if they are well maintained. Plumbing problems may sink it one day > > but even that is highly unlikely if you keep the valves closed when you > > are not using them. It is easy to plug a hole with a bung or two if you > > are having a bad day. Fire to me is the biggest danger. If I had an > > uncontrollable fire, I would shut all the hatches and jump in the dingy > > or life raft until it went out. The water inside the hoses should keep > > them from burning but if not I could dive down and shove the bungs in to > > the hull fittings from the outside. This might be unrealistic but it is > > a plan. > > > > Paul > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29013|28960|2012-10-05 15:21:08|Matt Malone|Re: Hot Tug|I find many boats in the background of the photos quite interesting. The Hot Tug could use a short mast, huge flag and lights to improve visibility. So close to the water, I would not want to be run over, especially while in a .... hot tug. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: steveben@... > Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 12:58:38 -0600 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight Door > > Rather than keeping the water out just get a really good water heater and make a floating hot tub! > > http://www.hottug.nl/fotos_en.htm > > Just need an origami version and we are all set. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29014|28991|2012-10-05 16:25:32|brentswain38|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Yes, almost all steel boats under 50 feet are grossly overbuilt, compared to boats built of other materials --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@..." wrote: > > > ok great thanks. i'd love to hear everyones opinion on this. Brent your saying if I used A36 I wouldnt even have to bother with ABS or not because it is overbuilt? > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > ABS does not really specify what to use for Ordinary Strength Hull Structural Steel. It just should meet ABS requirements (pass the tests at steel mill) for ABS grade A, B, D, E, DS, CS. Different climate conditions (where boat is used) may require different grade for the hull. > > > > I think, that for origami boat is more important Elongation (%). More is better. > > > > When I was looking for hull's steel, one company had all kind of exotic steels, but not ABS grades. > > > > A36 steel plates are available in ABS grades. It just means that it passed all the tests required by ABS and can be used for the boat/ship construction. > > > > Just ask supplier for ABS grade steel. If company does not know what it is, call another one. The company which have ABS grades, will tell you what ASTM steel they have in ABS grades. > > > > P.S. I assume that you are in USA - different countries may have different requirements for boatbuilding. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@" wrote: > > > > > > I found somewhere online that A131-A is often used in ships? I sort of read elsewhere about A36 which seems to just be standard mild hot rolled steel? What would be better? hot or cold? does it matter? Someone should create a file on here about steel types for boat building. That would be great knowledge to have. I'd share if I knew but I don't... > > > > > > | 29015|28991|2012-10-05 16:29:46|brentswain38|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|About the only problem you will ever have with mild steel is lamination when it was rolled. When that happens, usually along the edges, you find out real quick, when you try cut it with a torch or plasma, and it spits back at you . Anything which can be easily cut with a torch or plasma has no such problem, and is OK. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > All you need is standard construction (commercial) grade mild steel. > It's more than good enough, anything fancier is just taking more money > off you. It won't do anything for your boat or your bank balance. > > Paul Thompson > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 3:56 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > Brent is right, if you build a boat for yourself as recreational. We are talking about what ABS grades of steel means - not how to make a boat according to ABS rules... > > > > Look at A36 ABS grade A steel as "A36 steel with better quality control". Higher grades (B, D, E....) will have better specs for low temperature service. > > > > High strength steels (AH...) will have less elongation which is not good for origami and requires special electrodes for welding. So, use mild steel - A36. > > > > Again, "ABS grade" is steel of the same ASTM grade with better quality control. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@" wrote: > >> > >> > >> ok great thanks. i'd love to hear everyones opinion on this. Brent your saying if I used A36 I wouldnt even have to bother with ABS or not because it is overbuilt? > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > >> > > >> > ABS does not really specify what to use for Ordinary Strength Hull Structural Steel. It just should meet ABS requirements (pass the tests at steel mill) for ABS grade A, B, D, E, DS, CS. Different climate conditions (where boat is used) may require different grade for the hull. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 29016|28960|2012-10-05 16:32:14|brentswain38|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |I'v eoften though that thos abandoned ferro cement boats of the 70s would make great, ready made, swimming pools. Just dig a hole and install them in your back yard. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Steve Bennett wrote: > > Rather than keeping the water out just get a really good water heater and make a floating hot tub! > > http://www.hottug.nl/fotos_en.htm > > Just need an origami version and we are all set. > > On Oct 4, 2012, at 7:05 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > Absolutely true. Very litgle chanc eof anythign puctturing that smal ahgull with that thick aplate. There is just not enough momentum. With a composting head, and keel cooling, it's easy to eliminate most, if not all thru hulls. > > There is not enough air inside a sealed hull to keep any fire burning for long. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 3/10/2012 9:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Tape an inch of foasm to a piece of 1/8th steel plate. Throw it > > > > overboard and it will float. Takes 1 1/2 inch foam to float 3/16th > > > > plate. So how much overkill do you need to float the ballast, engine > > > > and everything that wont float on it's own? Wood interiors have > > > > bouyancy equal to their weight. So most of the interior is buoyancy. > > > > So is a sealed mast. One 36 had 3 inchs of foam sprayed in. It is > > > > unsinkable, as that is a 100% overkill, far more than any weight, > > > > above the shell weight and sinkables. > > > > > > I can't see a steel boat like your designs ever getting a hole in the > > > hull if they are well maintained. Plumbing problems may sink it one day > > > but even that is highly unlikely if you keep the valves closed when you > > > are not using them. It is easy to plug a hole with a bung or two if you > > > are having a bad day. Fire to me is the biggest danger. If I had an > > > uncontrollable fire, I would shut all the hatches and jump in the dingy > > > or life raft until it went out. The water inside the hoses should keep > > > them from burning but if not I could dive down and shove the bungs in to > > > the hull fittings from the outside. This might be unrealistic but it is > > > a plan. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29017|28991|2012-10-05 20:46:40|David Jones|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Here are some of the mechanical requirements for standard and marine grade A36. The real notable difference between them is that the marine grade has a ductile charpy requirement at 32°F. That means that the steel is mandated to not have a ductile to brittle transition temperature above freezing (in this case). Think Liberty ships from WWII http://www.sut.ac.th/engineering/metal/pdf/MechMet/14_Brittle%20fracture%20and%20impact%20testing.pdf I'd prefer to have the steel I'm using for my boat with that requirement met. Standard A36 might meet it also, but it might not... Standard Grade A36 Mechanical Properties: Tensile: 58 to 80 ksi Yield: 36 ksi min Elongation: 18% min in 8” 21% min in 2” (for plates wider than 24”) Marine Grade A36 Mechanical Properties: Tensile: 70 to 90 ksi Yield: 51 ksi min Elongation: 17% min in 8” 20% min in 2” Charpy Requirements (LCVN): AH36: 25 ft/lbs @ 32°F dj On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > About the only problem you will ever have with mild steel is lamination when it was > rolled. When that happens, usually along the edges, you find out real quick, when you try > cut it with a torch or plasma, and it spits back at you . Anything which can be easily cut > with a torch or plasma has no such problem, and is OK. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > All you need is standard construction (commercial) grade mild steel. > > It's more than good enough, anything fancier is just taking more money > > off you. It won't do anything for your boat or your bank balance. > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 3:56 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > Brent is right, if you build a boat for yourself as recreational. We are talking about > what ABS grades of steel means - not how to make a boat according to ABS rules... > > > > > > Look at A36 ABS grade A steel as "A36 steel with better quality control". Higher > grades (B, D, E....) will have better specs for low temperature service. > > > > > > High strength steels (AH...) will have less elongation which is not good for origami > and requires special electrodes for welding. So, use mild steel - A36. > > > > > > Again, "ABS grade" is steel of the same ASTM grade with better quality control. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zethkinnett@" wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> ok great thanks. i'd love to hear everyones opinion on this. Brent your saying if I > used A36 I wouldnt even have to bother with ABS or not because it is overbuilt? > > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > >> > > > >> > ABS does not really specify what to use for Ordinary Strength Hull Structural > Steel. It just should meet ABS requirements (pass the tests at steel mill) for ABS grade > A, B, D, E, DS, CS. Different climate conditions (where boat is used) may require > different grade for the hull. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29018|28991|2012-10-06 00:41:39|wild_explorer|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|You gave specs for different steels (A36 and AH36). A36 is ASTM standard. AH36 - high strength grade by ABS. It could be different steel by ASTM standards. Elongation for ABS grades: Standard strength - 21% (24%, 22%) AH36 - 19% (22%, 20%) For origami boat, A36 is better than AH36 grade. A36 comes in marine grades (ABS), but it is not AH36. It are different steels. For low temperature service -40C(-40F) - ABS grade D for ordinary steel, ABS grade EH36 for high strength steel. AH36 has the same temperature as A36 grade A for impact test (0C, 32F). If you build a boat for northern countries, you may want different ABS grades of steel. Most people will be just fine with A36 grade A steel (if you plan to certify your vessel). Or regular A36 if you build a boat just for yourself. The price difference is not so big for A36 and A36 grade A. You may even find A36 grade A with lower price than A36. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > I'd prefer to have the steel I'm using for my boat with that requirement > met. Standard A36 might meet it also, but it might not... > > Standard Grade A36 > Mechanical Properties: > Tensile: 58 to 80 ksi > Yield: 36 ksi min > Elongation: 18% min in 8” 21% min in 2” (for plates wider than 24”) > > > Marine Grade A36 > Mechanical Properties: > Tensile: 70 to 90 ksi > Yield: 51 ksi min > Elongation: 17% min in 8” 20% min in 2” > Charpy Requirements (LCVN): > AH36: 25 ft/lbs @ 32°F > > dj > | 29019|28991|2012-10-06 07:59:27|David Jones|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Show me the ductile to brittle transition temperature for A36 non-marine grade. Is it tested for for that property? If it isn't, you don't know where the ductile to brittle transition temperature is. You should use steel that is rated for impact resistance and that the ductile to brittle transition temperature is below 32F - most boats are in water so you don't need much below that temperature in northern or southern climates. dj On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, wild_explorer wrote: > > > You gave specs for different steels (A36 and AH36). A36 is ASTM standard. AH36 - high > strength grade by ABS. It could be different steel by ASTM standards. > > Elongation for ABS grades: > Standard strength - 21% (24%, 22%) > AH36 - 19% (22%, 20%) > > For origami boat, A36 is better than AH36 grade. A36 comes in marine grades (ABS), but it > is not AH36. It are different steels. > > For low temperature service -40C(-40F) - ABS grade D for ordinary steel, ABS grade EH36 > for high strength steel. > > AH36 has the same temperature as A36 grade A for impact test (0C, 32F). > > If you build a boat for northern countries, you may want different ABS grades of steel. > Most people will be just fine with A36 grade A steel (if you plan to certify your vessel). > Or regular A36 if you build a boat just for yourself. The price difference is not so big > for A36 and A36 grade A. You may even find A36 grade A with lower price than A36. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > > I'd prefer to have the steel I'm using for my boat with that requirement > > met. Standard A36 might meet it also, but it might not... > > > > Standard Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 58 to 80 ksi > > Yield: 36 ksi min > > Elongation: 18% min in 8â??21% min in 2â??(for plates wider than 24â??) > > > > > > Marine Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 70 to 90 ksi > > Yield: 51 ksi min > > Elongation: 17% min in 8â??20% min in > 2â??> Charpy Requirements (LCVN): > > AH36: 25 ft/lbs @ 32°F > > > > dj > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29020|28991|2012-10-06 12:46:58|wild_explorer|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|As I said before, marine grade of steel is just steel tested at the mill to comply with requirements for boatbuilding. A36 ABS grades steel is Impact tested: Grade A: 0C(32F) - 2.8kg-m(20ft-lb) Grade B: -10C(14F) - 2.8kg-m(20ft-lb) If you want certify your boat, you need steel mill certificate anyway to prove that the steel used in boat construction comply with your country requirements for boatbuilding. There is a table which shows equivalents of ABS grades to others standards. Some steel grades are converted to A36 at steel mill. Do not ask me why - I do not know ;) Just the information about A36: ASTM A36 A36 is one of the most common carbon steel plate grades. Mechanical Properties: Tensile: 58 to 80 KSI Yield: 36 KSI minimum Elongation: 18% minimum in 8" 21% minimum in 2" (for plate 24" and wider) ASTM A36 / ABS GR A Certified This product is produced to ASTM A36 specifications at a mill approved by the American Bureau of Shipping. The Mill Test Certificates must include the stamp and signature of an ABS Agent. A131 steel is available in ABS Grades A or B (preferred for origami) as well as in high strength ABS grades AH36, DH36, EH36 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > Show me the ductile to brittle transition temperature for A36 non-marine > grade. Is it tested for for that property? If it isn't, you don't know > where the ductile to brittle transition temperature is. > > You should use steel that is rated for impact resistance and that the > ductile to brittle transition temperature is below 32F - most boats are in > water so you don't need much below that temperature in northern or > southern climates. > > dj | 29021|28991|2012-10-06 12:56:43|Aaron|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. ________________________________ From: David Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 3:59 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Show me the ductile to brittle transition temperature for A36 non-marine grade. Is it tested for for that property? If it isn't, you don't know where the ductile to brittle transition temperature is. You should use steel that is rated for impact resistance and that the ductile to brittle transition temperature is below 32F - most boats are in water so you don't need much below that temperature in northern or southern climates. dj On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, wild_explorer wrote: > > > You gave specs for different steels (A36 and AH36). A36 is ASTM standard. AH36 - high > strength grade by ABS. It could be different steel by ASTM standards. > > Elongation for ABS grades: > Standard strength - 21% (24%, 22%) > AH36 - 19% (22%, 20%) > > For origami boat, A36 is better than AH36 grade. A36 comes in marine grades (ABS), but it > is not AH36. It are different steels. > > For low temperature service -40C(-40F) - ABS grade D for ordinary steel, ABS grade EH36 > for high strength steel. > > AH36 has the same temperature as A36 grade A for impact test (0C, 32F). > > If you build a boat for northern countries, you may want different ABS grades of steel. > Most people will be just fine with A36 grade A steel (if you plan to certify your vessel). > Or regular A36 if you build a boat just for yourself. The price difference is not so big > for A36 and A36 grade A. You may even find A36 grade A with lower price than A36. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > > I'd prefer to have the steel I'm using for my boat with that requirement > > met. Standard A36 might meet it also, but it might not... > > > > Standard Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 58 to 80 ksi > > Yield: 36 ksi min > > Elongation: 18% min in 8â??21% min in 2â??(for plates wider than 24â??) > > > > > > Marine Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 70 to 90 ksi > > Yield: 51 ksi min > > Elongation: 17% min in 8â??20% min in > 2â??> Charpy Requirements (LCVN): > > AH36: 25 ft/lbs @ 32°F > > > > dj > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29022|28960|2012-10-06 15:18:11|wild_explorer|Re: Trying to make a yacht unsinkable, Was: Quick Acting Watertight |Personally, I would stay away from inflatable seals for 2 reasons: 1. It prone to fail (holes, cracks, jammed between frame and door, etc) 2. In case of fire, with small air draft, it will melt some of it in the area where the draft is and you will lose entire seal. I am still have hard time to envision simple operation of table-top door. Table top need to be rotated/flipped first (to bring it in horizontal alignment with door frame. Fixed somehow to prevent horizontal movement. Then, it is need to be lifted up and aligned with door frame vertically and closed. Because the door will be heavy, it will require 2 hands operation or complex mechanism for 1 hand operation. And it must be done SAFELY as well under all sea conditions. It is interesting idea (for midships bulkhead) IF design can be simplified and allow 1 hand operation. May be I missed something in the original description... It is need to give some thoughts about accessibility to others part of the boat. Let say we have 3 bulkheads - at bow, midships, stern. Now we have damage between bow and midship bulkheads. Midship bulkhead will be sealed. We lose access to the half of the boat, unless there is access from the top of the boat to a bow compartment. So, every compartment separated by bulkheads should have watertight (better airtight) access from the top (for repairs if needed, emergency exit, etc). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > Operation: spin the 2 wing nuts, pull the c-channel, pull the trim, pull the table, put it thogupull it in place, dog it, pump it. 2 minutes ? One minute with practice ? 5 minutes in awful conditions ? Once the door is dogged, even if not pumped, it should fit the perimeter frame closely enough that things should get far more relaxed. > > Yes, a big permanently hinged door is faster, but then you are constantly looking at a big permanently hinged door. > > And yes, the tabletop would have to be quite thick, like a good hardwood dining room table top, or hardwood workbench top because it will have between 70 and 450 pounds per square foot on it if it is holding back standing water. In the meantime, you have a salon tabletop as sturdy as a workbench top. Just try not to though-bolt a vice to the edge of it. Think of how to make the bulkhead equally strong / stiff (flat bar welded on edge), because it cannot be curved to gain stiffness like the hull. > > Matt | 29023|28991|2012-10-06 15:34:36|wild_explorer|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|I forgot to mention that Minimum thickness of ABS pre-approved plates starts from 3/16" (0.188") plate. I could not find 1/8" ABS approved plates. So.... If you building a boat hull from 1/8" steel - you are out of luck, and need to do extra work to find specs for available steel and see if it comply with ABS standards. P.S. Extra: Navy information for hull plates requirements (pages 17-20) http://www.eagle.org/eagleExternalPortalWEB/ShowProperty/BEA%20Repository/Rules&Guides/Current/96_MaterialsandWelding_SuppReqforNavalVessels/Pub96_Part2Navy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. > > | 29024|28991|2012-10-06 16:11:42|mauro gonzaga|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|ASTM A 516 (Identical to ASME SA 516), C/Mn steel is available in these grades: 55/60/65/70 (digit indicates the min. tensile strength in Kpsi, multiply by 7 and you have in Kg/sqmm). These steels are stronger increasing Carbon content to max. % 0.18/ 0.21/0.24/ 0.27 respectively. Mn. vary from min % 0.60 to 1.50 (Manganese strengthen the steel like C. does, in the approx. rate 1 to 5 -meaning 1 % increase in C. has the same effect of 5% increase in Mn-). The high %C and Mn increase strength, decreasing ductility, elongation and weldability. However also with a grade 70 all the aforementioned characteristics are very good. ABS approved means it is approved by ABS for ship construction and has the above characteristics. The best steel for ship and yacht construction is: fine grain, fully killed, just as the above A 516 (very good if normalized, but not necessary for the thk. in use). Verify MTR: if Aluminum. (total) content is above 0.020% it is fine grain. If normalized should read temperature and time of the normalizing treatment. For the thickness in use there is no risk of brittle fracture for this kind of steel at temperature not lower than -20 °F (-29 °C). Mauro (former Ship Surveyor and present boiler and pressure vessel Inspector) From: Aaron To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. ________________________________ From: David Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 3:59 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Show me the ductile to brittle transition temperature for A36 non-marine grade. Is it tested for for that property? If it isn't, you don't know where the ductile to brittle transition temperature is. You should use steel that is rated for impact resistance and that the ductile to brittle transition temperature is below 32F - most boats are in water so you don't need much below that temperature in northern or southern climates. dj On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, wild_explorer wrote: > > > You gave specs for different steels (A36 and AH36). A36 is ASTM standard. AH36 - high > strength grade by ABS. It could be different steel by ASTM standards. > > Elongation for ABS grades: > Standard strength - 21% (24%, 22%) > AH36 - 19% (22%, 20%) > > For origami boat, A36 is better than AH36 grade. A36 comes in marine grades (ABS), but it > is not AH36. It are different steels. > > For low temperature service -40C(-40F) - ABS grade D for ordinary steel, ABS grade EH36 > for high strength steel. > > AH36 has the same temperature as A36 grade A for impact test (0C, 32F). > > If you build a boat for northern countries, you may want different ABS grades of steel. > Most people will be just fine with A36 grade A steel (if you plan to certify your vessel). > Or regular A36 if you build a boat just for yourself. The price difference is not so big > for A36 and A36 grade A. You may even find A36 grade A with lower price than A36. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > > I'd prefer to have the steel I'm using for my boat with that requirement > > met. Standard A36 might meet it also, but it might not... > > > > Standard Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 58 to 80 ksi > > Yield: 36 ksi min > > Elongation: 18% min in 8â??21% min in 2â??(for plates wider than 24â??) > > > > > > Marine Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 70 to 90 ksi > > Yield: 51 ksi min > > Elongation: 17% min in 8â??20% min in > 2â??> Charpy Requirements (LCVN): > > AH36: 25 ft/lbs @ 32°F > > > > dj > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29025|28991|2012-10-06 19:02:11|brentswain38|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Wanna test your steel for impact strength. Whack it as hard as you can ,with a pickaxe. Now go whack an "approved" wood or fibreglass boat just as hard, with a pickaxe. Nuff said? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > As I said before, marine grade of steel is just steel tested at the mill to comply with requirements for boatbuilding. A36 ABS grades steel is Impact tested: > > Grade A: 0C(32F) - 2.8kg-m(20ft-lb) > Grade B: -10C(14F) - 2.8kg-m(20ft-lb) > > If you want certify your boat, you need steel mill certificate anyway to prove that the steel used in boat construction comply with your country requirements for boatbuilding. There is a table which shows equivalents of ABS grades to others standards. > > Some steel grades are converted to A36 at steel mill. Do not ask me why - I do not know ;) > > Just the information about A36: > > ASTM A36 > > A36 is one of the most common carbon steel > plate grades. > Mechanical Properties: > Tensile: 58 to 80 KSI > Yield: 36 KSI minimum > Elongation: 18% minimum in 8" > 21% minimum in 2" (for plate 24" and wider) > > ASTM A36 / ABS GR A Certified > > This product is produced to ASTM A36 > specifications at a mill approved by the > American Bureau of Shipping. The Mill Test > Certificates must include the stamp and > signature of an ABS Agent. > > A131 steel is available in ABS Grades A or B (preferred for origami) as well as in high strength ABS grades AH36, DH36, EH36 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > > > Show me the ductile to brittle transition temperature for A36 non-marine > > grade. Is it tested for for that property? If it isn't, you don't know > > where the ductile to brittle transition temperature is. > > > > You should use steel that is rated for impact resistance and that the > > ductile to brittle transition temperature is below 32F - most boats are in > > water so you don't need much below that temperature in northern or > > southern climates. > > > > dj > | 29026|28991|2012-10-06 20:41:23|David Jones|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|"Nuff said"? No - not even close. The Liberty ships that broke in half running in the north sea because the steel became brittle at those temperatures could have been hit wth a battering ram at 50 degrees and nothing owuld have happened to them. dj On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > Wanna test your steel for impact strength. Whack it as hard as you can ,with a pickaxe. > Now go whack an "approved" wood or fibreglass boat just as hard, with a pickaxe. > Nuff said? > | 29027|28991|2012-10-06 21:11:49|Aaron|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|David   Recycled and as cheap as they could be made so they could make lots of them,                We are building small sailboats huge difference. And I don't think to many people will be sailing at much less than freezing 0 c or 32 F.  The icing conditions on the rigging alone....  Aaron ________________________________ From: David Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   "Nuff said"? No - not even close. The Liberty ships that broke in half running in the north sea because the steel became brittle at those temperatures could have been hit wth a battering ram at 50 degrees and nothing owuld have happened to them. dj On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > Wanna test your steel for impact strength. Whack it as hard as you can ,with a pickaxe. > Now go whack an "approved" wood or fibreglass boat just as hard, with a pickaxe. > Nuff said? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29028|28991|2012-10-06 21:59:25|David Jones|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Aaron, Size of the boat doesn't matter. 32 F is the temperature that the marine grades test at, I've not suggested worrying about temps below that. You don't want your boat, big or small, made with steel that becomes brittle at a temperature it might see. Folk like to look at tensile strength and % elongation numbers. Nobody has been talking about a critical criteria which is the ductile to brittle transition temperature. You'll be hard pressed to find that number in certs, but if you can find a charpy value at 32F then the steel was made with that in mind. Looking for steel plate sizes that aren't rated for marine use? See if they have a charpy rating at 32F (or below is fine but not necessary). Just a suggestion, don't want to take it? Up to you.... dj On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, Aaron wrote: > > > David >   Recycled and as cheap as they could be made so they could make lots of > them, > We are building small sailboats huge difference. And I don't think to many people will be > sailing at much less than freezing 0 c or 32 F.  The icing conditions on the > rigging alone.... > Aaron > > > ________________________________ > From: David Jones > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 4:41 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull? > > > > > "Nuff said"? No - not even close. The Liberty ships that broke in half > running in the north sea because the steel became brittle at those > temperatures could have been hit wth a battering ram at 50 degrees and > nothing owuld have happened to them. > > dj > > On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > Wanna test your steel for impact strength. Whack it as hard as you can ,with a pickaxe. > > Now go whack an "approved" wood or fibreglass boat just as hard, with a pickaxe. > > Nuff said? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29029|28991|2012-10-06 22:16:43|wild_explorer|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|David, there is quote about Liberty Ships from the file you gave a link to: Quote from page 3: The cause of failure was due to crack of materials initiated from defects in the welded area and subjected to subzero temperature. End of quote. DEFECTS IN THE WELDED AREA... They forgot to mention, that early Liberty Ships had design problems which made them break in half. Later, design was changed and ships did not break anymore. Sub-low temperature service for steel is a problem, but we are not talking about icebreakers. The same file you gave link to, shows that steel of low strength absorb more energy at low temperatures before failing compare to high strength steel. And using highest grade of marine steel, but not following established procedures for the hull construction, could create more problems and failures than using non-tested regular steel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > "Nuff said"? No - not even close. The Liberty ships that broke in half > running in the north sea because the steel became brittle at those > temperatures could have been hit wth a battering ram at 50 degrees and > nothing owuld have happened to them. > > dj | 29030|28991|2012-10-06 22:27:43|Aaron|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|The whole point is weather it is nessary or not. My boat has seen -30 F already much to cold for me to have been working on it. I have been out banging around at 0 F and that was cold enough.  A105 grade pipe is rated to -20 f the next level is A333 rated down to -50 F.  A36 and A516 are roughly the same basic materials. The oil companies I have worked for require MTR's that confirm the material is what they are paying for and if something breaks they can go back to find out what Caused it.                                                                            ________________________________ From: David Jones To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Aaron, Size of the boat doesn't matter. 32 F is the temperature that the marine grades test at, I've not suggested worrying about temps below that. You don't want your boat, big or small, made with steel that becomes brittle at a temperature it might see. Folk like to look at tensile strength and % elongation numbers. Nobody has been talking about a critical criteria which is the ductile to brittle transition temperature. You'll be hard pressed to find that number in certs, but if you can find a charpy value at 32F then the steel was made with that in mind. Looking for steel plate sizes that aren't rated for marine use? See if they have a charpy rating at 32F (or below is fine but not necessary). Just a suggestion, don't want to take it? Up to you.... dj On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, Aaron wrote: > > > David >   Recycled and as cheap as they could be made so they could make lots of > them, > We are building small sailboats huge difference. And I don't think to many people will be > sailing at much less than freezing 0 c or 32 F.  The icing conditions on the > rigging alone.... > Aaron > > > ________________________________ > From: David Jones > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 4:41 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull? > > > > > "Nuff said"? No - not even close. The Liberty ships that broke in half > running in the north sea because the steel became brittle at those > temperatures could have been hit wth a battering ram at 50 degrees and > nothing owuld have happened to them. > > dj > > On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > Wanna test your steel for impact strength. Whack it as hard as you can ,with a pickaxe. > > Now go whack an "approved" wood or fibreglass boat just as hard, with a pickaxe. > > Nuff said? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29031|28991|2012-10-07 01:16:56|Paul Thompson|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|My boat was built of bog standard of the shelf mild steel in1989, she survived going ashore in hurricane Luis (1995) at St. Martin. No welds broke no plates split despite being pounded by two meter seas for at least 10 hours. Getting existed about steel specs is a waste of time. Just get commercial grade mild steel from a reputable supplier and I doubt if you can go wrong. -- Regards, Paul Thompson| 29032|28991|2012-10-07 03:35:31|mauro gonzaga|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Ops...Read: < multiply by 0.7 and you have in Kg/sqmm> Mauro ________________________________ From: mauro gonzaga To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   ASTM A 516 (Identical to ASME SA 516), C/Mn steel is available in these grades: 55/60/65/70 (digit indicates the min. tensile strength in Kpsi, multiply by 7 and you have in Kg/sqmm). These steels are stronger increasing Carbon content to max. % 0.18/ 0.21/0.24/ 0.27 respectively. Mn. vary from min % 0.60 to 1.50 (Manganese strengthen the steel like C. does, in the approx. rate 1 to 5 -meaning 1 % increase in C. has the same effect of 5% increase in Mn-). The high %C and Mn increase strength, decreasing ductility, elongation and weldability. However also with a grade 70 all the aforementioned characteristics are very good. ABS approved means it is approved by ABS for ship construction and has the above characteristics. The best steel for ship and yacht construction is: fine grain, fully killed, just as the above A 516 (very good if normalized, but not necessary for the thk. in use). Verify MTR: if Aluminum. (total) content is above 0.020% it is fine grain. If normalized should read temperature and time of the normalizing treatment. For the thickness in use there is no risk of brittle fracture for this kind of steel at temperature not lower than -20 °F (-29 °C). Mauro (former Ship Surveyor and present boiler and pressure vessel Inspector) From: Aaron To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. ________________________________ From: David Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 3:59 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Show me the ductile to brittle transition temperature for A36 non-marine grade. Is it tested for for that property? If it isn't, you don't know where the ductile to brittle transition temperature is. You should use steel that is rated for impact resistance and that the ductile to brittle transition temperature is below 32F - most boats are in water so you don't need much below that temperature in northern or southern climates. dj On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, wild_explorer wrote: > > > You gave specs for different steels (A36 and AH36). A36 is ASTM standard. AH36 - high > strength grade by ABS. It could be different steel by ASTM standards. > > Elongation for ABS grades: > Standard strength - 21% (24%, 22%) > AH36 - 19% (22%, 20%) > > For origami boat, A36 is better than AH36 grade. A36 comes in marine grades (ABS), but it > is not AH36. It are different steels. > > For low temperature service -40C(-40F) - ABS grade D for ordinary steel, ABS grade EH36 > for high strength steel. > > AH36 has the same temperature as A36 grade A for impact test (0C, 32F). > > If you build a boat for northern countries, you may want different ABS grades of steel. > Most people will be just fine with A36 grade A steel (if you plan to certify your vessel). > Or regular A36 if you build a boat just for yourself. The price difference is not so big > for A36 and A36 grade A. You may even find A36 grade A with lower price than A36. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > > I'd prefer to have the steel I'm using for my boat with that requirement > > met. Standard A36 might meet it also, but it might not... > > > > Standard Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 58 to 80 ksi > > Yield: 36 ksi min > > Elongation: 18% min in 8â??21% min in 2â??(for plates wider than 24â??) > > > > > > Marine Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 70 to 90 ksi > > Yield: 51 ksi min > > Elongation: 17% min in 8â??20% min in > 2â??> Charpy Requirements (LCVN): > > AH36: 25 ft/lbs @ 32°F > > > > dj > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29033|28997|2012-10-07 05:59:51|jason ball|Re: Yahoo screwups?|give them what they want! a phone number does it have to be yours? do they check? my guess is that it is formality. --- On Fri, 5/10/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Yahoo screwups? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 5 October, 2012, 2:01   A friend on this site was told by yahoo that he was blocked from yahoo, including emails, unless he gave them a phone number. Many of us dont even have a phone. Do we also get blocked ? Does any one know how to get around this scam? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29034|29034|2012-10-07 09:00:04|sitefix|steel for sale|Anyone finding any 40 foot lengths around the Chesapeake area???? I thought with Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Wilmington it would be easy. Not! Thanks for any leads, Par| 29035|29034|2012-10-07 12:08:23|wild_explorer|Re: steel for sale|I had hard time to find distributors willing to sell 40ft length steel on West Coast in such small quantities. Manufacturers do not want to have any deal with such small order, most distributors too. You just need 2-3 plates delivered to your location... Right? If delivery is not available, it will be another problem - you need to find how to transport it... On East Coast, 40ft plates might be available around Philadelphia,PA or Hamilton,ON You may check where shipbuilding yards are around you, call them and ask who supply steel to them. Or just look for big steel suppliers of marine steel around it. More likely they will have 40ft plates. Suppliers of construction steel usually have plates only up to 20ft. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > Anyone finding any 40 foot lengths around the Chesapeake area???? > I thought with Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Wilmington it would be easy. > Not! > > Thanks for any leads, > > Par > | 29036|29034|2012-10-07 15:23:29|wild_explorer|Re: steel for sale|Check http://www.rangersteel.com/ It has office in WILMINGTON, DE I forgot about this one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > Anyone finding any 40 foot lengths around the Chesapeake area???? > I thought with Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Wilmington it would be easy. > Not! > > Thanks for any leads, > > Par > | 29037|28991|2012-10-07 18:22:00|David Jones|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|On Sun, 7 Oct 2012, wild_explorer wrote: > Quote from page 3: > The cause of failure was due to crack of materials initiated from defects in the welded > area and subjected to subzero temperature. > End of quote. Correct, there were two problems, poor welds and steel that had a ductile to brittle transition temperature that was in the 40's F IIRC. in any case, it was above the temperatures of the ocean water in the North Atlantic. > They forgot to mention, that early Liberty Ships had design problems which made them break > in half. Later, design was changed and ships did not break anymore. And what you are forgetting to mention in this, is that they began to understand that one of the main contributors to the failure was the ductile to brittle tranistion temperature. So they built the rest of the ships with that in mind, using appropriate steel. > The same file you gave link to, shows that steel of low strength absorb more energy at low > temperatures before failing compare to high strength steel. this is correct, as you lower the carbon content of steel, you will also lower the ductile to brittle transition temperature. > > And using highest grade of marine steel, but not following established procedures for the > hull construction, could create more problems and failures than using non-tested regular > steel. This I only partially agree with. Not following established procedures for hull construction can create problems independently of the base steel used. Using non-tested regular (whatever regular steel means...) steel can give you problems if it has a ductile to brittle transition temperature that is above the working temperature of your boat. dj| 29038|28991|2012-10-07 19:48:48|wild_explorer|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Thanks for pointing out that it is need to pay attention to a steel choice for boats which intended to be used in low temperature service. People living North will appreciate it. However, I suspect that construction steel available in Texas and in Alaska, will be different grades (applicable to a weather conditions inland). So, construction steel used in Alaska's inland is exposed to much lower temperatures that the boat in Alaska's waters. Suggestion to ask for the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel (if pre-certified ABS grade steel is not available), and compare it with ABS requirements, was a practical solution to check if the steel is good (or not) for your boat in low-temperature service. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > Using non-tested regular (whatever regular steel means...) steel can give > you problems if it has a ductile to brittle transition temperature that is > above the working temperature of your boat. > > dj > | 29039|28991|2012-10-07 23:46:59|wild_explorer|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Aaron, thanks for the information about MTR's! It turned out that I had that paper already, it just has slightly different name "Mill Test Certificate". It has: - ASTM and ASME standards - Specific Size, Shape - Chemical composition/specifications - Mechanical Properties - Proof of Origin Pretty informative document, and it has specs for each plate. P.S. What is interesting, it has space for Impact test results, but it is empty. It just has the stamp ABS A next to the signature of QA Engineer and the reference to ABS Material Report number. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. > > The oil companies I have worked for require MTR's that confirm the material is what they are paying for and if something breaks they can go back to find out what Caused it. | 29040|28991|2012-10-07 23:51:12|Aaron|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|I you want impact testing done you make the welds then send the coupons in for testing should be about $10,000. Then you will have certified quality controled welding procedure for what the material and welding electrode you chose if if passed. ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2012 7:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Aaron, thanks for the information about MTR's! It turned out that I had that paper already, it just has slightly different name "Mill Test Certificate". It has: - ASTM and ASME standards - Specific Size, Shape - Chemical composition/specifications - Mechanical Properties - Proof of Origin Pretty informative document, and it has specs for each plate. P.S. What is interesting, it has space for Impact test results, but it is empty. It just has the stamp ABS A next to the signature of QA Engineer and the reference to ABS Material Report number. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. > > The oil companies I have worked for require MTR's that confirm the material is what they are paying for and if something breaks they can go back to find out what Caused it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29041|28991|2012-10-08 00:00:54|Aaron|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Mauro Do you agree for the 3/16" thickness for Brent boats A36 is sufficient and the A516 would be a great choice if it is available ? ________________________________ From: mauro gonzaga To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   ASTM A 516 (Identical to ASME SA 516), C/Mn steel is available in these grades: 55/60/65/70 (digit indicates the min. tensile strength in Kpsi, multiply by 7 and you have in Kg/sqmm). These steels are stronger increasing Carbon content to max. % 0.18/ 0.21/0.24/ 0.27 respectively. Mn. vary from min % 0.60 to 1.50 (Manganese strengthen the steel like C. does, in the approx. rate 1 to 5 -meaning 1 % increase in C. has the same effect of 5% increase in Mn-). The high %C and Mn increase strength, decreasing ductility, elongation and weldability. However also with a grade 70 all the aforementioned characteristics are very good. ABS approved means it is approved by ABS for ship construction and has the above characteristics. The best steel for ship and yacht construction is: fine grain, fully killed, just as the above A 516 (very good if normalized, but not necessary for the thk. in use). Verify MTR: if Aluminum. (total) content is above 0.020% it is fine grain. If normalized should read temperature and time of the normalizing treatment. For the thickness in use there is no risk of brittle fracture for this kind of steel at temperature not lower than -20 °F (-29 °C). Mauro (former Ship Surveyor and present boiler and pressure vessel Inspector) From: Aaron To: "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. ________________________________ From: David Jones To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 3:59 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Show me the ductile to brittle transition temperature for A36 non-marine grade. Is it tested for for that property? If it isn't, you don't know where the ductile to brittle transition temperature is. You should use steel that is rated for impact resistance and that the ductile to brittle transition temperature is below 32F - most boats are in water so you don't need much below that temperature in northern or southern climates. dj On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, wild_explorer wrote: > > > You gave specs for different steels (A36 and AH36). A36 is ASTM standard. AH36 - high > strength grade by ABS. It could be different steel by ASTM standards. > > Elongation for ABS grades: > Standard strength - 21% (24%, 22%) > AH36 - 19% (22%, 20%) > > For origami boat, A36 is better than AH36 grade. A36 comes in marine grades (ABS), but it > is not AH36. It are different steels. > > For low temperature service -40C(-40F) - ABS grade D for ordinary steel, ABS grade EH36 > for high strength steel. > > AH36 has the same temperature as A36 grade A for impact test (0C, 32F). > > If you build a boat for northern countries, you may want different ABS grades of steel. > Most people will be just fine with A36 grade A steel (if you plan to certify your vessel). > Or regular A36 if you build a boat just for yourself. The price difference is not so big > for A36 and A36 grade A. You may even find A36 grade A with lower price than A36. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > > I'd prefer to have the steel I'm using for my boat with that requirement > > met. Standard A36 might meet it also, but it might not... > > > > Standard Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 58 to 80 ksi > > Yield: 36 ksi min > > Elongation: 18% min in 8â??21% min in 2â??(for plates wider than 24â??) > > > > > > Marine Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 70 to 90 ksi > > Yield: 51 ksi min > > Elongation: 17% min in 8â??20% min in > 2â??> Charpy Requirements (LCVN): > > AH36: 25 ft/lbs @ 32°F > > > > dj > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29042|28991|2012-10-08 01:27:32|wild_explorer|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Testing of joined/welded materials and quality of welds? I do not want even touch this subject ;)) This thread already confused a lot of people ;) P.S. Backyard boatbuilder has limited resources and it is looking for the solutions - not an academical discussions... What, Where, How... P.S.S I know that my steel is good enough for my boat, and my welds will be as good as I make them ;))) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > I you want impact testing done you make the welds then send the coupons in for testing should be about $10,000. Then you will have certified quality controled welding procedure for what the material and welding electrode you chose if if passed. > | 29043|28991|2012-10-08 07:26:08|mauro gonzaga|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Yes, A36 is a structural steel. However ASME Code Sect.VIII Div.1 allows this steel to be used for pressure vessels with thickness up to 16 mm (0.6 in). The MDMT (minimum design metal temperature) for which A36 is permitted to be used for pressure vessels without performing impact testing (Charpy V) is, for thickness up to 0.375 in:  18 °F. Mind that an important factor of brittle fracture is the increase of thickness. Does it suit your needs? Mauro ________________________________ From: Aaron To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, October 8, 2012 6:00 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Mauro Do you agree for the 3/16" thickness for Brent boats A36 is sufficient and the A516 would be a great choice if it is available ? ________________________________ From: mauro gonzaga To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   ASTM A 516 (Identical to ASME SA 516), C/Mn steel is available in these grades: 55/60/65/70 (digit indicates the min. tensile strength in Kpsi, multiply by 7 and you have in Kg/sqmm). These steels are stronger increasing Carbon content to max. % 0.18/ 0.21/0.24/ 0.27 respectively. Mn. vary from min % 0.60 to 1.50 (Manganese strengthen the steel like C. does, in the approx. rate 1 to 5 -meaning 1 % increase in C. has the same effect of 5% increase in Mn-). The high %C and Mn increase strength, decreasing ductility, elongation and weldability. However also with a grade 70 all the aforementioned characteristics are very good. ABS approved means it is approved by ABS for ship construction and has the above characteristics. The best steel for ship and yacht construction is: fine grain, fully killed, just as the above A 516 (very good if normalized, but not necessary for the thk. in use). Verify MTR: if Aluminum. (total) content is above 0.020% it is fine grain. If normalized should read temperature and time of the normalizing treatment. For the thickness in use there is no risk of brittle fracture for this kind of steel at temperature not lower than -20 °F (-29 °C). Mauro (former Ship Surveyor and present boiler and pressure vessel Inspector) From: Aaron To: "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. ________________________________ From: David Jones To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 3:59 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Show me the ductile to brittle transition temperature for A36 non-marine grade. Is it tested for for that property? If it isn't, you don't know where the ductile to brittle transition temperature is. You should use steel that is rated for impact resistance and that the ductile to brittle transition temperature is below 32F - most boats are in water so you don't need much below that temperature in northern or southern climates. dj On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, wild_explorer wrote: > > > You gave specs for different steels (A36 and AH36). A36 is ASTM standard. AH36 - high > strength grade by ABS. It could be different steel by ASTM standards. > > Elongation for ABS grades: > Standard strength - 21% (24%, 22%) > AH36 - 19% (22%, 20%) > > For origami boat, A36 is better than AH36 grade. A36 comes in marine grades (ABS), but it > is not AH36. It are different steels. > > For low temperature service -40C(-40F) - ABS grade D for ordinary steel, ABS grade EH36 > for high strength steel. > > AH36 has the same temperature as A36 grade A for impact test (0C, 32F). > > If you build a boat for northern countries, you may want different ABS grades of steel. > Most people will be just fine with A36 grade A steel (if you plan to certify your vessel). > Or regular A36 if you build a boat just for yourself. The price difference is not so big > for A36 and A36 grade A. You may even find A36 grade A with lower price than A36. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > > I'd prefer to have the steel I'm using for my boat with that requirement > > met. Standard A36 might meet it also, but it might not... > > > > Standard Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 58 to 80 ksi > > Yield: 36 ksi min > > Elongation: 18% min in 8â??21% min in 2â??(for plates wider than 24â??) > > > > > > Marine Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 70 to 90 ksi > > Yield: 51 ksi min > > Elongation: 17% min in 8â??20% min in > 2â??> Charpy Requirements (LCVN): > > AH36: 25 ft/lbs @ 32°F > > > > dj > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29044|28991|2012-10-08 07:33:21|mauro gonzaga|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Impact testing is not mandatory for the steel you are going to use. Impact testing is a supplementary requirement. The steelmaker do it only if specifically required. Whilst for the superior grades of marine plates impact testing at -20 °C is mandatory. Lower grades, used in the less stressed area, do not have impact testing requirement. Mauro ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 8, 2012 5:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Aaron, thanks for the information about MTR's! It turned out that I had that paper already, it just has slightly different name "Mill Test Certificate". It has: - ASTM and ASME standards - Specific Size, Shape - Chemical composition/specifications - Mechanical Properties - Proof of Origin Pretty informative document, and it has specs for each plate. P.S. What is interesting, it has space for Impact test results, but it is empty. It just has the stamp ABS A next to the signature of QA Engineer and the reference to ABS Material Report number. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. > > The oil companies I have worked for require MTR's that confirm the material is what they are paying for and if something breaks they can go back to find out what Caused it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29045|29034|2012-10-08 08:42:00|Tom Pee|Re: steel for sale|Know that in Ohio those sizes are available without hassles. They will also deliver but not sure how far.  Know the company has locations in Illinois and Indiana.    ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2012 12:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel for sale   I had hard time to find distributors willing to sell 40ft length steel on West Coast in such small quantities. Manufacturers do not want to have any deal with such small order, most distributors too. You just need 2-3 plates delivered to your location... Right? If delivery is not available, it will be another problem - you need to find how to transport it... On East Coast, 40ft plates might be available around Philadelphia,PA or Hamilton,ON You may check where shipbuilding yards are around you, call them and ask who supply steel to them. Or just look for big steel suppliers of marine steel around it. More likely they will have 40ft plates. Suppliers of construction steel usually have plates only up to 20ft. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > Anyone finding any 40 foot lengths around the Chesapeake area???? > I thought with Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Wilmington it would be easy. > Not! > > Thanks for any leads, > > Par > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29046|29046|2012-10-08 12:17:17|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|naval gelly rust remover|does anyone has any experience using Loctite "naval gelly" to remove rust? Martin| 29047|28991|2012-10-08 14:42:45|mauro gonzaga|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|I didn't complete the answer. You are right: A/SA 516 is the best choice. Mauro ________________________________ From: mauro gonzaga To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, October 8, 2012 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Yes, A36 is a structural steel. However ASME Code Sect.VIII Div.1 allows this steel to be used for pressure vessels with thickness up to 16 mm (0.6 in). The MDMT (minimum design metal temperature) for which A36 is permitted to be used for pressure vessels without performing impact testing (Charpy V) is, for thickness up to 0.375 in:  18 °F. Mind that an important factor of brittle fracture is the increase of thickness. Does it suit your needs? Mauro ________________________________ From: Aaron To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, October 8, 2012 6:00 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Mauro Do you agree for the 3/16" thickness for Brent boats A36 is sufficient and the A516 would be a great choice if it is available ? ________________________________ From: mauro gonzaga To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   ASTM A 516 (Identical to ASME SA 516), C/Mn steel is available in these grades: 55/60/65/70 (digit indicates the min. tensile strength in Kpsi, multiply by 7 and you have in Kg/sqmm). These steels are stronger increasing Carbon content to max. % 0.18/ 0.21/0.24/ 0.27 respectively. Mn. vary from min % 0.60 to 1.50 (Manganese strengthen the steel like C. does, in the approx. rate 1 to 5 -meaning 1 % increase in C. has the same effect of 5% increase in Mn-). The high %C and Mn increase strength, decreasing ductility, elongation and weldability. However also with a grade 70 all the aforementioned characteristics are very good. ABS approved means it is approved by ABS for ship construction and has the above characteristics. The best steel for ship and yacht construction is: fine grain, fully killed, just as the above A 516 (very good if normalized, but not necessary for the thk. in use). Verify MTR: if Aluminum. (total) content is above 0.020% it is fine grain. If normalized should read temperature and time of the normalizing treatment. For the thickness in use there is no risk of brittle fracture for this kind of steel at temperature not lower than -20 °F (-29 °C). Mauro (former Ship Surveyor and present boiler and pressure vessel Inspector) From: Aaron To: "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. ________________________________ From: David Jones To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 3:59 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Show me the ductile to brittle transition temperature for A36 non-marine grade. Is it tested for for that property? If it isn't, you don't know where the ductile to brittle transition temperature is. You should use steel that is rated for impact resistance and that the ductile to brittle transition temperature is below 32F - most boats are in water so you don't need much below that temperature in northern or southern climates. dj On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, wild_explorer wrote: > > > You gave specs for different steels (A36 and AH36). A36 is ASTM standard. AH36 - high > strength grade by ABS. It could be different steel by ASTM standards. > > Elongation for ABS grades: > Standard strength - 21% (24%, 22%) > AH36 - 19% (22%, 20%) > > For origami boat, A36 is better than AH36 grade. A36 comes in marine grades (ABS), but it > is not AH36. It are different steels. > > For low temperature service -40C(-40F) - ABS grade D for ordinary steel, ABS grade EH36 > for high strength steel. > > AH36 has the same temperature as A36 grade A for impact test (0C, 32F). > > If you build a boat for northern countries, you may want different ABS grades of steel. > Most people will be just fine with A36 grade A steel (if you plan to certify your vessel). > Or regular A36 if you build a boat just for yourself. The price difference is not so big > for A36 and A36 grade A. You may even find A36 grade A with lower price than A36. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > > I'd prefer to have the steel I'm using for my boat with that requirement > > met. Standard A36 might meet it also, but it might not... > > > > Standard Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 58 to 80 ksi > > Yield: 36 ksi min > > Elongation: 18% min in 8â??21% min in 2â??(for plates wider than 24â??) > > > > > > Marine Grade A36 > > Mechanical Properties: > > Tensile: 70 to 90 ksi > > Yield: 51 ksi min > > Elongation: 17% min in 8â??20% min in > 2â??> Charpy Requirements (LCVN): > > AH36: 25 ft/lbs @ 32°F > > > > dj > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29048|29034|2012-10-08 15:09:05|brentswain38|Re: steel for sale|In California ,clients have been getting wheel abraded and primed 40 ft lengths from Portland Oregon. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > Know that in Ohio those sizes are available without hassles. They will also deliver but not sure how far.  Know the company has locations in Illinois and Indiana.  >   > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2012 12:08 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel for sale > > >   > > I had hard time to find distributors willing to sell 40ft length steel on West Coast in such small quantities. Manufacturers do not want to have any deal with such small order, most distributors too. You just need 2-3 plates delivered to your location... Right? If delivery is not available, it will be another problem - you need to find how to transport it... > > On East Coast, 40ft plates might be available around Philadelphia,PA or Hamilton,ON > > You may check where shipbuilding yards are around you, call them and ask who supply steel to them. Or just look for big steel suppliers of marine steel around it. More likely they will have 40ft plates. Suppliers of construction steel usually have plates only up to 20ft. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > > > Anyone finding any 40 foot lengths around the Chesapeake area???? > > I thought with Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Wilmington it would be easy. > > Not! > > > > Thanks for any leads, > > > > Par > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29049|28991|2012-10-08 15:12:12|brentswain38|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|There is no comparison between the loads on a liberty ship and a 40 footer. There is no record of the steel ever having broken in mid plate on a steel boat that size, and there never will be. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > "Nuff said"? No - not even close. The Liberty ships that broke in half > running in the north sea because the steel became brittle at those > temperatures could have been hit wth a battering ram at 50 degrees and > nothing owuld have happened to them. > > dj > > On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > Wanna test your steel for impact strength. Whack it as hard as you can ,with a pickaxe. > > Now go whack an "approved" wood or fibreglass boat just as hard, with a pickaxe. > > Nuff said? > > > | 29050|28991|2012-10-08 15:45:52|mauro gonzaga|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Come-one. Stop worrying about Liberty (Dry cargo) and T2 (Tanker), built during the ww2. Mind that steel was not weldable quality because since then there was no welded ship. Present worst steel is far better than the best of that steel. In addition they were using extremely high heat input (and weld deposit rate): I have read the records of the T2 Tanker I was on board (maiden named Forbes Road, built in Portland): Time of construction: 30 days on slipyard + 40 days fitting!!! FOR A 152 METRES  (500 FT) LONG SHIP. This is the most dramatic report: At 11pm on the 16 January 1943, a few days after completing sea trials, the 152m long T2 tanker 'Schenectady' broke in two amidships while lying at the outfitting dock in the constructors yard in Portland, Oregon, USA (see Fig.).The temperature of the harbour water was about 4°C and the conditions were still. The air temperature was approximately -3°C and the winds were light.   Part of the technical report: The importance of weld quality was dramatically illustrated by the experience of the T2 tankers in which 50% of fractures initiated in welds not associated with design discontinuities. The investigation into the 'Schenectady' also questioned the adequacy of steel specifications for all welded ship hulls. The steel used to build the Schenectady was of a quality which was known to be acceptable for riveted ships. . Mauro ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 8, 2012 9:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   There is no comparison between the loads on a liberty ship and a 40 footer. There is no record of the steel ever having broken in mid plate on a steel boat that size, and there never will be. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > "Nuff said"? No - not even close. The Liberty ships that broke in half > running in the north sea because the steel became brittle at those > temperatures could have been hit wth a battering ram at 50 degrees and > nothing owuld have happened to them. > > dj > > On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > Wanna test your steel for impact strength. Whack it as hard as you can ,with a pickaxe. > > Now go whack an "approved" wood or fibreglass boat just as hard, with a pickaxe. > > Nuff said? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29051|28991|2012-10-08 16:27:29|brentswain38|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|In the early 70's I worked with guys who had worked on building the liberty ships. They said all welding was done down hand, with bare steel rods, zero flux. With that kind of welding, it wouldn't matter how strong your plates were. My 36 has pounded on lee shore in extremely rough conditions, up to weeks at a time with zero significant damage. Any ship the size of a liberty ship would break in half if it were not fully supported in those conditions. Tankers break in half if they fill one tank too much, before filling the others at the same rate. There is no comparison between the loads on a small yacht to those on big ships. I spend most winters breaking thru some ice, and broke thru a quarter mile of five inch ice in November 85 with no damage whatever, except for the paint on the leading edges of the keels and stem. Winston sailed one of my designs thru the NW passage in a single season, breaking a lot of ice,and T-boning a berg at hull speed, which launched him thru the hatch and into the main cabin. He used common mild steel, 1/8th inch thick. Zero damage suffered on that trip. Given that any small steel hull is many times the strength of a boat made out of any other material, it is foolish to worry about the tiny difference choice of steel will make. It's like coating your steel hull with paper mache to make it stronger, or calculating how much strength your paint job adds to the hull. Get real! Worrying and spending extra money on such petty issues is what leads to boats costing far more, in both time and money than they need, without improving anything which is at all, relevant. Such petty perfectionism is the biggest threat to many cruising dreams ever being realized. It has killed too many of them. We are not dealing with nuclear subs here. Steel choices mentioned here are completely irrelevant, in the size of boats we are dealing with here. Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Come-one. Stop worrying about Liberty (Dry cargo) and T2 (Tanker), built during the ww2. Mind that steel was not weldable quality because since then there was no welded ship. Present worst steel is far better than the best of that steel. In addition they were using extremely high heat input (and weld deposit rate): I have read the records of the T2 Tanker I was on board (maiden named Forbes Road, built in Portland): > > Time of construction: 30 days on slipyard + 40 days fitting!!! FOR A 152 METRES  (500 FT) LONG SHIP. > > This is the most dramatic report: > > At 11pm on the 16 January 1943, a few days after > completing sea trials, the 152m long T2 tanker 'Schenectady' broke in two > amidships while lying at the outfitting dock in the constructors yard in > Portland, Oregon, USA (see Fig.).The temperature of the harbour water was about > 4°C and the conditions were still. The air temperature was approximately -3°C > and the winds were light. >   > Part of the technical report: > > The importance of weld quality was dramatically > illustrated by the experience of the T2 tankers in which 50% of fractures > initiated in welds not associated with design discontinuities. The > investigation into the 'Schenectady' also questioned the adequacy of steel > specifications for all welded ship hulls. The steel used to build the > Schenectady was of a quality which was known to be acceptable for riveted > ships. > . > > Mauro > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 8, 2012 9:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull? > > >   > There is no comparison between the loads on a liberty ship and a 40 footer. There is no record of the steel ever having broken in mid plate on a steel boat that size, and there never will be. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Jones wrote: > > > > "Nuff said"? No - not even close. The Liberty ships that broke in half > > running in the north sea because the steel became brittle at those > > temperatures could have been hit wth a battering ram at 50 degrees and > > nothing owuld have happened to them. > > > > dj > > > > On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Wanna test your steel for impact strength. Whack it as hard as you can ,with a pickaxe. > > > Now go whack an "approved" wood or fibreglass boat just as hard, with a pickaxe. > > > Nuff said? > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29052|28991|2012-10-08 16:38:21|brentswain38|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Then you will also have no money left to finish or use the friggin boat. Happens all the time, to those so foolish as to put too much stock in naive perfectionism, over practicality. They are a piss poor source of advice. Most never make it out of the boatyard, so end up with very little practical cruising experience. Following their advice will get you the same results. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > I you want impact testing done you make the welds then send the coupons in for testing should be about $10,000. Then you will have certified quality controled welding procedure for what the material and welding electrode you chose if if passed. > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2012 7:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull? > > >   > > Aaron, thanks for the information about MTR's! It turned out that I had that paper already, it just has slightly different name "Mill Test Certificate". It has: > > - ASTM and ASME standards > - Specific Size, Shape > - Chemical composition/specifications > - Mechanical Properties > - Proof of Origin > > Pretty informative document, and it has specs for each plate. > > P.S. What is interesting, it has space for Impact test results, but it is empty. It just has the stamp ABS A next to the signature of QA Engineer and the reference to ABS Material Report number. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > > > Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. > > > > The oil companies I have worked for require MTR's that confirm the material is what they are paying for and if something breaks they can go back to find out what Caused it. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29053|29046|2012-10-08 16:42:41|brentswain38|Re: naval gelly rust remover|I've used it. The problem is the rust continues behind the epoxy. Grinding it clean or sandblasting is far better. A dremel or die grinder gets into the pits, better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > does anyone has any experience using Loctite "naval gelly" > to remove rust? > > Martin > | 29054|28991|2012-10-08 16:58:30|Aaron|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|Well said Brent ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 8, 2012 12:38 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?   Then you will also have no money left to finish or use the friggin boat. Happens all the time, to those so foolish as to put too much stock in naive perfectionism, over practicality. They are a piss poor source of advice. Most never make it out of the boatyard, so end up with very little practical cruising experience. Following their advice will get you the same results. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > I you want impact testing done you make the welds then send the coupons in for testing should be about $10,000. Then you will have certified quality controled welding procedure for what the material and welding electrode you chose if if passed. > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2012 7:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull? > > >   > > Aaron, thanks for the information about MTR's! It turned out that I had that paper already, it just has slightly different name "Mill Test Certificate". It has: > > - ASTM and ASME standards > - Specific Size, Shape > - Chemical composition/specifications > - Mechanical Properties > - Proof of Origin > > Pretty informative document, and it has specs for each plate. > > P.S. What is interesting, it has space for Impact test results, but it is empty. It just has the stamp ABS A next to the signature of QA Engineer and the reference to ABS Material Report number. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > > > Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. > > > > The oil companies I have worked for require MTR's that confirm the material is what they are paying for and if something breaks they can go back to find out what Caused it. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29055|28991|2012-10-08 20:26:44|wild_explorer|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|This is very helpful topic. This information was not available at the time I was ordering steel. I simply asked suppliers for "steel to build a boat". They just said that "You need ABS grade steel. Cheapest one is ABS Grade A". I checked the price from other steel suppliers around and A36 steel was the same or even higher price than ABS Gr A. Just to make it clear, this is how my ABS grade A steel's full name looks like on "Mill Test Certificate" ABS A / A36: ASTM A36-08/ABS GR A 11/A709-36-10/ASME SA36-03 And it does NOT have Impact tests specs/results. The question is why? So, I start looking what the real difference is between A36 and ABS Grade A... Here is side-by-side specs (Min/Max Specs for ABS and A36 plates): ABS grade A vs A36 Carbon % max - 0.23 or 0.26 (for plate <0.5in) vs 0.25 (plate <0.75in) Note: 0.23-0.26 for 3/16" plate vs 0.25 for 3/16" plate Manganese % max - 2.5*Carbon (for plate >0.5in) vs N/A (plate <0.75in) Note: No requirements for 3/16" plate Phosphorus % max - 0.04 vs 0.04 (plate <0.75in) Note: The same for 3/16" plate Sulphur/Sulfur % max - 0.04 vs 0.05 (plate <0.75in) Note: ABS better Silicon % max - N/A vs 0.4 (plate <0.75in) Tensile Strength: 58-71-80ksi vs 58-80ksi Yield point min: 34ksi vs 36ksi Elongation min for 8": 21% vs 20% Impact test (Charpy V-notch): for ABS A test is specified only for plates over 1", A36 - by request. As you notice, there is no big difference between ABS grade A and regular A36 steel for 3/16" plate. P.S. Impact test is not required for 3/16" ABS gr A plate. That why I do not have it in Mill Test Certificate. P.S.S Do not expect ABS steel to be flawless, it allows to have some fixable defects ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Yes, A36 is a structural steel. However ASME Code Sect.VIII Div.1 allows this steel to be used for pressure vessels with thickness up to 16 mm (0.6 in). The MDMT (minimum design metal temperature) for which A36 is permitted to be used for pressure vessels without performing impact testing (Charpy V) is, for thickness up to 0.375 in:  18 °F. Mind that an important factor of brittle fracture is the increase of thickness. > Does it suit your needs? > Mauro | 29056|29056|2012-10-08 20:33:11|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|fairing compound for steel hull|Brent, What kind of filler should we use for fairing compound on a steel hull I have many dents on my hull! Martin| 29057|29046|2012-10-08 20:39:50|martin demers|Re: naval gelly rust remover|wich means that in reality it does not remove all the rust? how long before rust shows up trough epoxy? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 20:42:39 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: naval gelly rust remover I've used it. The problem is the rust continues behind the epoxy. Grinding it clean or sandblasting is far better. A dremel or die grinder gets into the pits, better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > does anyone has any experience using Loctite "naval gelly" > to remove rust? > > Martin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29058|29046|2012-10-09 00:02:29|Marc|Re: naval gelly rust remover|Naval Jelly and similar products do not remove rust - they change its form from the brown oxide to the black oxide. The benefit of this is that, while the brown oxide occupies more space than the original metal and therefore flakes off, exposing more metal to corrosion, the black oxide forms an impervious layer that does not flake off and prevents further corrosion there. It also forms a good base for primers and paint - better than the bare metal. The main problem with these products is that they are oversold. It is absolutely vital to remove all the flaking, loose oxide BEFORE using Naval Jelly. Closely adhering rust is okay to leave on; it will be converted to the black oxide, leaving a black wrought-iron-looking coating. You may have to do several applications of the rust converter before the rust spot is stable and ready for paint. It's worth the trouble, though, because you will have no further deterioration there. Marc --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > wich means that in reality it does not remove all the rust? > how long before rust shows up trough epoxy? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 20:42:39 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: naval gelly rust remover > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've used it. The problem is the rust continues behind the epoxy. Grinding it clean or sandblasting is far better. A dremel or die grinder gets into the pits, better. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > does anyone has any experience using Loctite "naval gelly" > > > to remove rust? > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29059|29056|2012-10-09 14:24:30|brentswain38|Re: fairing compound for steel hull|First, try fair the plate as much as possible, from the inside. Make a telescoping pole, with a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe inside a 2 inch sch 40 pipe, with a plate on the ends, and random holes to put abolt thru at the needed length. You can tack a flat bar on edge over any hollow point in the hull plate, and jack it out with a hydraulic jack, on the end of the telescoping pole. When it has been jacked out to fair, put several 2 inch tacks along the flat bar. When you let the jack off ,it will remain fair.Go over the whole hull , and decks ,that way. Doesn't matter what it looks like inside, as that will be covered with sprayfoam and never saen again. To find the hollows, you can go over the hull at night, shining a flashlight along the hull, and marking the hollows. They stand out clearly this way. Then you can use filler on the outside, to fair any remaining hollows. I have never had to use fillers, as my origami boats are totally fair. Thus, I know little about fairing compounds. Builders who use outdated building methods, have far more expertise in fairing compounds, as they use a lot of them. They would be your best source of info on fairing compounds. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Brent, > > What kind of filler should we use for fairing compound on a steel hull > I have many dents on my hull! > > Martin > | 29060|28991|2012-10-09 14:33:39|brentswain38|Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull?|The vigilantes of conformity have many ways to stop you from getting off the treadmill, mostly by making up hurdles, to slow your progress. They have completely taken over many chatlines, attacking anyone who offers innovative solutions to the main hurdles, which are keeping people from achieving the lifestyle of freedom they seek. Once they take over a discussion group, such chatlines are rendered totally useless for anyone seeking innovative solutions or attempting to advance the field of endevor being discussed. From that point on, they offer only obstructionism. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Then you will also have no money left to finish or use the friggin boat. Happens all the time, to those so foolish as to put too much stock in naive perfectionism, over practicality. They are a piss poor source of advice. Most never make it out of the boatyard, so end up with very little practical cruising experience. Following their advice will get you the same results. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > I you want impact testing done you make the welds then send the coupons in for testing should be about $10,000. Then you will have certified quality controled welding procedure for what the material and welding electrode you chose if if passed. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: wild_explorer > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2012 7:46 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: what grade of sheet steel for hull? > > > > > >   > > > > Aaron, thanks for the information about MTR's! It turned out that I had that paper already, it just has slightly different name "Mill Test Certificate". It has: > > > > - ASTM and ASME standards > > - Specific Size, Shape > > - Chemical composition/specifications > > - Mechanical Properties > > - Proof of Origin > > > > Pretty informative document, and it has specs for each plate. > > > > P.S. What is interesting, it has space for Impact test results, but it is empty. It just has the stamp ABS A next to the signature of QA Engineer and the reference to ABS Material Report number. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > > > > > > Just ask For the Material Test Reports (MTR's) for the steel you want. > > > > > > The oil companies I have worked for require MTR's that confirm the material is what they are paying for and if something breaks they can go back to find out what Caused it. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 29061|29056|2012-10-09 14:35:10|Matt Malone|Re: fairing compound for steel hull|Brent, again, just incredible, "To find the hollows, you can go over the hull at night, shining a flashlight along the hull, and marking the hollows. They stand out clearly this way." Incredible.... This would not be the first thing I would think of, and it is so simple and effective. I use a flashlight to find small dropped things on the floor -- lay the flashlight on the floor and turn it -- the smallest thing will cast a long shadow. For a hull, there will be brighter (humped) and darker (hollowed) areas. Excellent visualization technique applicable to any hull inspection, used boat, after a haul out, after a bump anything. "Make a telescoping pole, with a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe inside a 2 inch sch 40 pipe, with a plate on the ends, and random holes to put abolt thru at the needed length. You can tack a flat bar on edge over any hollow point in the hull plate, and jack it out with a hydraulic jack, on the end of the telescoping pole." The 1-1/2" / 2" telescoping pole trick... never thought of using this as a compression column -- what sized jack (tons) are you able to put on it, and can you guess what fraction of the jack capacity you have practically pushed with it ? I imagine you used something on the other side to keep from creating a hump on the opposite side of the boat ? Like a timber or big pad of plywood ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 18:24:29 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fairing compound for steel hull First, try fair the plate as much as possible, from the inside. Make a telescoping pole, with a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe inside a 2 inch sch 40 pipe, with a plate on the ends, and random holes to put abolt thru at the needed length. You can tack a flat bar on edge over any hollow point in the hull plate, and jack it out with a hydraulic jack, on the end of the telescoping pole. When it has been jacked out to fair, put several 2 inch tacks along the flat bar. When you let the jack off ,it will remain fair.Go over the whole hull , and decks ,that way. Doesn't matter what it looks like inside, as that will be covered with sprayfoam and never saen again. To find the hollows, you can go over the hull at night, shining a flashlight along the hull, and marking the hollows. They stand out clearly this way. Then you can use filler on the outside, to fair any remaining hollows. I have never had to use fillers, as my origami boats are totally fair. Thus, I know little about fairing compounds. Builders who use outdated building methods, have far more expertise in fairing compounds, as they use a lot of them. They would be your best source of info on fairing compounds. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Brent, > > What kind of filler should we use for fairing compound on a steel hull > I have many dents on my hull! > > Martin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29062|29046|2012-10-09 18:51:57|mkriley48|Re: naval gelly rust remover|the navy regulations cal for 3 applications on navel jelly with heavy power wire brushing in between and a final wash and power sanding at the end. naval jelly will loosen solid rust mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Marc" wrote: > > Naval Jelly and similar products do not remove rust - they change its form from the brown oxide to the black oxide. The benefit of this is that, while the brown oxide occupies more space than the original metal and therefore flakes off, exposing more metal to corrosion, the black oxide forms an impervious layer that does not flake off and prevents further corrosion there. It also forms a good base for primers and paint - better than the bare metal. > > The main problem with these products is that they are oversold. It is absolutely vital to remove all the flaking, loose oxide BEFORE using Naval Jelly. Closely adhering rust is okay to leave on; it will be converted to the black oxide, leaving a black wrought-iron-looking coating. You may have to do several applications of the rust converter before the rust spot is stable and ready for paint. It's worth the trouble, though, because you will have no further deterioration there. > > Marc > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > wich means that in reality it does not remove all the rust? > > how long before rust shows up trough epoxy? > > > > Martin > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@ > > Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 20:42:39 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: naval gelly rust remover > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've used it. The problem is the rust continues behind the epoxy. Grinding it clean or sandblasting is far better. A dremel or die grinder gets into the pits, better. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > does anyone has any experience using Loctite "naval gelly" > > > > > to remove rust? > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 29063|29046|2012-10-09 19:04:47|Paul Wilson|Re: naval gelly rust remover|There is no way Naval Jelly is better than sandblasting and coating with high build epoxy. It is just a gel form of phosphoric acid which is made so it won't run down vertical surfaces. It is really no different than any of the other phosphoric acid rust killers and is typically used for touch ups on chips and rusted steel when sand blasting isn't possible. Paul| 29064|29056|2012-10-09 20:08:46|Mark Hamill|Re: fairing compound for steel hull|The only fairing I need to do on my older Brent hull is to fix hull/paint dings. However, If you want the skinny on doing fairing--- this site is serious "Yacht finish" overkill but it does tell you how to do it if you are interested. MarkH http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/Final-Fairing-and-Finishing.pdf [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29065|29046|2012-10-10 18:37:26|martin demers|Re: naval gelly rust remover|I know nothing can replace sandblasting, but I am always open to temporary solutions that could last a certain time before sandblasting is possible Regarding naval jelly, first it is not available in Canada, so I cannot get it and anyway it comes in 16 oz containers, too small( too expensive) to process an area of a certain size. there is another method to remove rust called chelation, a few products are available, "evapo-rust" is available at Canadian tire, it is affordable and also comes in 5 gallons also, apparently molasses removes rust, much info on the net with photos of treated metal, interesting Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 12:02:11 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: naval gelly rust remover There is no way Naval Jelly is better than sandblasting and coating with high build epoxy. It is just a gel form of phosphoric acid which is made so it won't run down vertical surfaces. It is really no different than any of the other phosphoric acid rust killers and is typically used for touch ups on chips and rusted steel when sand blasting isn't possible. Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29066|28997|2012-10-11 19:21:10|jim dorey|Re: Yahoo screwups?|jason ball wrote: > > > > give them what they want! a phone number does it have to be yours? do > they check? my guess is that it is formality. it's so they can verify through a second method, if you forget your password or something, you don't need it, though it'd help. depending on the method, having them call someone you know would work. last i'd heard of the method, it was get called, the machine reads out a PIN, you enter it somewhere on a site, and recover the account.| 29067|29056|2012-10-11 20:53:17|brentswain38|Re: fairing compound for steel hull|Plywood would make it imposible to get a tack on the short longitudinal . Just tack the contact point of the flatbar to the hull plate, so you can jack it out, without it falling over.Then, when the hollow is pushed out fair, put more tacks on the flat bar. When you let the jack off, it should stay fair. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Brent, again, just incredible, > > "To find the hollows, you can go over the hull at night, shining a > flashlight along the hull, and marking the hollows. They stand out > clearly this way." > > Incredible.... This would not be the first thing I would think of, and it is so simple and effective. I use a flashlight to find small dropped things on the floor -- lay the flashlight on the floor and turn it -- the smallest thing will cast a long shadow. For a hull, there will be brighter (humped) and darker (hollowed) areas. Excellent visualization technique applicable to any hull inspection, used boat, after a haul out, after a bump anything. > > "Make a telescoping pole, with a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe inside a 2 inch > sch 40 pipe, with a plate on the ends, and random holes to put abolt > thru at the needed length. You can tack a flat bar on edge over any > hollow point in the hull plate, and jack it out with a hydraulic jack, > on the end of the telescoping pole." > > The 1-1/2" / 2" telescoping pole trick... never thought of using this as a compression column -- what sized jack (tons) are you able to put on it, and can you guess what fraction of the jack capacity you have practically pushed with it ? > > I imagine you used something on the other side to keep from creating a hump on the opposite side of the boat ? Like a timber or big pad of plywood ? > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 18:24:29 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fairing compound for steel hull > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First, try fair the plate as much as possible, from the inside. Make a telescoping pole, with a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe inside a 2 inch sch 40 pipe, with a plate on the ends, and random holes to put abolt thru at the needed length. You can tack a flat bar on edge over any hollow point in the hull plate, and jack it out with a hydraulic jack, on the end of the telescoping pole. When it has been jacked out to fair, put several 2 inch tacks along the flat bar. When you let the jack off ,it will remain fair.Go over the whole hull , and decks ,that way. Doesn't matter what it looks like inside, as that will be covered with sprayfoam and never saen again. To find the hollows, you can go over the hull at night, shining a flashlight along the hull, and marking the hollows. They stand out clearly this way. > > Then you can use filler on the outside, to fair any remaining hollows. I have never had to use fillers, as my origami boats are totally fair. Thus, I know little about fairing compounds. Builders who use outdated building methods, have far more expertise in fairing compounds, as they use a lot of them. They would be your best source of info on fairing compounds. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > What kind of filler should we use for fairing compound on a steel hull > > > I have many dents on my hull! > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29068|29046|2012-10-11 20:58:22|brentswain38|Re: naval gelly rust remover|Naval gelly, with epoxy over it will get you 2 or 3 years. My wheelabraded and zinc primed plate, with lots of epoxy, has been good for 28 years. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > I know nothing can replace sandblasting, > but I am always open to temporary solutions that could last a certain time before sandblasting is possible > Regarding naval jelly, first it is not available in Canada, so I cannot get it and anyway it comes in 16 oz containers, too small( too expensive) to process an area of a certain size. > there is another method to remove rust called chelation, > a few products are available, "evapo-rust" is available at Canadian tire, it is affordable and also comes in 5 gallons > > also, apparently molasses removes rust, much info on the net with photos of treated metal, interesting > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 12:02:11 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: naval gelly rust remover > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no way Naval Jelly is better than sandblasting and coating with > > high build epoxy. It is just a gel form of phosphoric acid which is > > made so it won't run down vertical surfaces. It is really no different > > than any of the other phosphoric acid rust killers and is typically used > > for touch ups on chips and rusted steel when sand blasting isn't possible. > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29069|28997|2012-10-12 00:49:28|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: Yahoo screwups?|Gmail has a similar option. You put a cellphone number into your personal data when you set up your account and if you forget your password you can get it from them in a text message. Bruno On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 1:21 AM, jim dorey wrote: > ** > > > jason ball wrote: > > > > > > > > give them what they want! a phone number does it have to be yours? do > > they check? my guess is that it is formality. > > it's so they can verify through a second method, if you forget your > password or something, you don't need it, though it'd help. depending > on the method, having them call someone you know would work. last i'd > heard of the method, it was get called, the machine reads out a PIN, you > enter it somewhere on a site, and recover the account. > > -- Bruno Ogorelec**** Ivana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra**** 10020 Zagreb**** **** Tel. +385 1 22 22 575**** Mobile: +385 98 224 230 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29070|29056|2012-10-12 13:04:22|Matt Malone|Re: fairing compound for steel hull|Sorry, I meant, if one puts a compression column in the boat to push out a dent on the starboard side, then the column must also press against the port side or perhaps underside of the deck -- what do you put at the other end of the column to prevent deforming the other part of the boat that is at the other end of the column ? Do you have any idea what sort of forces are typically used to push dents out of say a 36' orgami ? I ask because that gives an idea of the forces needed to create a shallow dent in a 36' orgami. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:53:16 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fairing compound for steel hull Plywood would make it imposible to get a tack on the short longitudinal . Just tack the contact point of the flatbar to the hull plate, so you can jack it out, without it falling over.Then, when the hollow is pushed out fair, put more tacks on the flat bar. When you let the jack off, it should stay fair. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Brent, again, just incredible, > > "To find the hollows, you can go over the hull at night, shining a > flashlight along the hull, and marking the hollows. They stand out > clearly this way." > > Incredible.... This would not be the first thing I would think of, and it is so simple and effective. I use a flashlight to find small dropped things on the floor -- lay the flashlight on the floor and turn it -- the smallest thing will cast a long shadow. For a hull, there will be brighter (humped) and darker (hollowed) areas. Excellent visualization technique applicable to any hull inspection, used boat, after a haul out, after a bump anything. > > "Make a telescoping pole, with a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe inside a 2 inch > sch 40 pipe, with a plate on the ends, and random holes to put abolt > thru at the needed length. You can tack a flat bar on edge over any > hollow point in the hull plate, and jack it out with a hydraulic jack, > on the end of the telescoping pole." > > The 1-1/2" / 2" telescoping pole trick... never thought of using this as a compression column -- what sized jack (tons) are you able to put on it, and can you guess what fraction of the jack capacity you have practically pushed with it ? > > I imagine you used something on the other side to keep from creating a hump on the opposite side of the boat ? Like a timber or big pad of plywood ? > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 18:24:29 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fairing compound for steel hull > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First, try fair the plate as much as possible, from the inside. Make a telescoping pole, with a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe inside a 2 inch sch 40 pipe, with a plate on the ends, and random holes to put abolt thru at the needed length. You can tack a flat bar on edge over any hollow point in the hull plate, and jack it out with a hydraulic jack, on the end of the telescoping pole. When it has been jacked out to fair, put several 2 inch tacks along the flat bar. When you let the jack off ,it will remain fair.Go over the whole hull , and decks ,that way. Doesn't matter what it looks like inside, as that will be covered with sprayfoam and never saen again. To find the hollows, you can go over the hull at night, shining a flashlight along the hull, and marking the hollows. They stand out clearly this way. > > Then you can use filler on the outside, to fair any remaining hollows. I have never had to use fillers, as my origami boats are totally fair. Thus, I know little about fairing compounds. Builders who use outdated building methods, have far more expertise in fairing compounds, as they use a lot of them. They would be your best source of info on fairing compounds. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > What kind of filler should we use for fairing compound on a steel hull > > > I have many dents on my hull! > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29071|29071|2012-10-12 13:24:28|martin|Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Hi all: I'm finally putting the finishing touches on Prairie Maid and I'm in the process of contacting boat haulers for the move out to the coast. Boat work has been on hold as we've been through hell here due to my wife having to go through the process of dealing with breast cancer . Needles to say boat building takes a distant second over that. Does anyone have a ball park figure for the weight of a fin keel 36ft. before fuel and water? I'm headed to the coast in mid nov. to check out possible launch sites in the Vancouver B.C. area. Any suggestions or tips? Thanks Maritn..| 29072|29071|2012-10-12 13:40:21|Matt Malone|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|A guess, 16,000-18,000 pounds ? It will take a tractor-trailer to haul it but, the weight is not the important part, it is beam and clearance height calculated by keel to coach-roof height + trailer lift which the shipper will know. The maximum weight of a loaded shipping container is on order of 30 tons, so, a steel boat is nothing, weight-wise for a proper tractor trailer. How far does it have to go ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mforster@... Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:24:25 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Getting closer to Boat Haul day. Hi all: I'm finally putting the finishing touches on Prairie Maid and I'm in the process of contacting boat haulers for the move out to the coast. Boat work has been on hold as we've been through hell here due to my wife having to go through the process of dealing with breast cancer . Needles to say boat building takes a distant second over that. Does anyone have a ball park figure for the weight of a fin keel 36ft. before fuel and water? I'm headed to the coast in mid nov. to check out possible launch sites in the Vancouver B.C. area. Any suggestions or tips? Thanks Maritn.. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29073|29071|2012-10-12 13:49:33|martin|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|As a commercial trucker for over 30 years I'd love to haul it myself but it certainly needs a boat trailer. I had guessed around 20,000lbs of load which is nothing for tandem tractor and trailer. The one hauler out of Kelowna seems to think it ways alot more from it's picture. We are just 30 minuets west of Edmonton Alberta so it's got a bit of ride ahead of it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > A guess, 16,000-18,000 pounds ? It will take a tractor-trailer to haul it but, the weight is not the important part, it is beam and clearance height calculated by keel to coach-roof height + trailer lift which the shipper will know. The maximum weight of a loaded shipping container is on order of 30 tons, so, a steel boat is nothing, weight-wise for a proper tractor trailer. > > How far does it have to go ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mforster@... > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:24:25 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Getting closer to Boat Haul day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all: I'm finally putting the finishing touches on Prairie Maid and I'm in the process of contacting boat haulers for the move out to the coast. Boat work has been on hold as we've been through hell here due to my wife having to go through the process of dealing with breast cancer . Needles to say boat building takes a distant second over that. Does anyone have a ball park figure for the weight of a fin keel 36ft. before fuel and water? I'm headed to the coast in mid nov. to check out possible launch sites in the Vancouver B.C. area. Any suggestions or tips? Thanks Maritn.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29074|29071|2012-10-12 16:04:18|brentswain38|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|There is a trailer in the bush in Royston which was licensed and built to fit a single keeel BS 36, but it needs alot of work. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > As a commercial trucker for over 30 years I'd love to haul it myself but it certainly needs a boat trailer. I had guessed around 20,000lbs of load which is nothing for tandem tractor and trailer. The one hauler out of Kelowna seems to think it ways alot more from it's picture. We are just 30 minuets west of Edmonton Alberta so it's got a bit of ride ahead of it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > A guess, 16,000-18,000 pounds ? It will take a tractor-trailer to haul it but, the weight is not the important part, it is beam and clearance height calculated by keel to coach-roof height + trailer lift which the shipper will know. The maximum weight of a loaded shipping container is on order of 30 tons, so, a steel boat is nothing, weight-wise for a proper tractor trailer. > > > > How far does it have to go ? > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mforster@ > > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:24:25 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Getting closer to Boat Haul day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all: I'm finally putting the finishing touches on Prairie Maid and I'm in the process of contacting boat haulers for the move out to the coast. Boat work has been on hold as we've been through hell here due to my wife having to go through the process of dealing with breast cancer . Needles to say boat building takes a distant second over that. Does anyone have a ball park figure for the weight of a fin keel 36ft. before fuel and water? I'm headed to the coast in mid nov. to check out possible launch sites in the Vancouver B.C. area. Any suggestions or tips? Thanks Maritn.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 29075|29056|2012-10-12 16:07:21|brentswain38|Re: fairing compound for steel hull|Yes , put some blocking to spread the load out on the opposite side. Spreading it over 3 feet should be plenty, as you are only pushing out a small area on the hollow side. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Sorry, I meant, if one puts a compression column in the boat to push out a dent on the starboard side, then the column must also press against the port side or perhaps underside of the deck -- what do you put at the other end of the column to prevent deforming the other part of the boat that is at the other end of the column ? > > Do you have any idea what sort of forces are typically used to push dents out of say a 36' orgami ? I ask because that gives an idea of the forces needed to create a shallow dent in a 36' orgami. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:53:16 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fairing compound for steel hull > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plywood would make it imposible to get a tack on the short longitudinal . Just tack the contact point of the flatbar to the hull plate, so you can jack it out, without it falling over.Then, when the hollow is pushed out fair, put more tacks on the flat bar. When you let the jack off, it should stay fair. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent, again, just incredible, > > > > > > "To find the hollows, you can go over the hull at night, shining a > > > flashlight along the hull, and marking the hollows. They stand out > > > clearly this way." > > > > > > Incredible.... This would not be the first thing I would think of, and it is so simple and effective. I use a flashlight to find small dropped things on the floor -- lay the flashlight on the floor and turn it -- the smallest thing will cast a long shadow. For a hull, there will be brighter (humped) and darker (hollowed) areas. Excellent visualization technique applicable to any hull inspection, used boat, after a haul out, after a bump anything. > > > > > > "Make a telescoping pole, with a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe inside a 2 inch > > > sch 40 pipe, with a plate on the ends, and random holes to put abolt > > > thru at the needed length. You can tack a flat bar on edge over any > > > hollow point in the hull plate, and jack it out with a hydraulic jack, > > > on the end of the telescoping pole." > > > > > > The 1-1/2" / 2" telescoping pole trick... never thought of using this as a compression column -- what sized jack (tons) are you able to put on it, and can you guess what fraction of the jack capacity you have practically pushed with it ? > > > > > > I imagine you used something on the other side to keep from creating a hump on the opposite side of the boat ? Like a timber or big pad of plywood ? > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 18:24:29 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fairing compound for steel hull > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First, try fair the plate as much as possible, from the inside. Make a telescoping pole, with a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe inside a 2 inch sch 40 pipe, with a plate on the ends, and random holes to put abolt thru at the needed length. You can tack a flat bar on edge over any hollow point in the hull plate, and jack it out with a hydraulic jack, on the end of the telescoping pole. When it has been jacked out to fair, put several 2 inch tacks along the flat bar. When you let the jack off ,it will remain fair.Go over the whole hull , and decks ,that way. Doesn't matter what it looks like inside, as that will be covered with sprayfoam and never saen again. To find the hollows, you can go over the hull at night, shining a flashlight along the hull, and marking the hollows. They stand out clearly this way. > > > > > > Then you can use filler on the outside, to fair any remaining hollows. I have never had to use fillers, as my origami boats are totally fair. Thus, I know little about fairing compounds. Builders who use outdated building methods, have far more expertise in fairing compounds, as they use a lot of them. They would be your best source of info on fairing compounds. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What kind of filler should we use for fairing compound on a steel hull > > > > > > > I have many dents on my hull! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29076|29071|2012-10-12 16:12:16|brentswain38|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Rowland's boat, all steelwork done, plus ballast, was 15,000 lbs. So how much yours weighs depends on how heavy an interior and engine you put in, anyone's guess. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > A guess, 16,000-18,000 pounds ? It will take a tractor-trailer to haul it but, the weight is not the important part, it is beam and clearance height calculated by keel to coach-roof height + trailer lift which the shipper will know. The maximum weight of a loaded shipping container is on order of 30 tons, so, a steel boat is nothing, weight-wise for a proper tractor trailer. > > How far does it have to go ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mforster@... > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:24:25 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Getting closer to Boat Haul day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all: I'm finally putting the finishing touches on Prairie Maid and I'm in the process of contacting boat haulers for the move out to the coast. Boat work has been on hold as we've been through hell here due to my wife having to go through the process of dealing with breast cancer . Needles to say boat building takes a distant second over that. Does anyone have a ball park figure for the weight of a fin keel 36ft. before fuel and water? I'm headed to the coast in mid nov. to check out possible launch sites in the Vancouver B.C. area. Any suggestions or tips? Thanks Maritn.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29077|29056|2012-10-12 16:24:19|wild_explorer|Re: fairing compound for steel hull|I was straitening some shallow bending (about 3x3") on the edge of 3/16" flat plate (not shaped to origami). I made imitation of C-clamp using channel as platform (to rest part of the plate on it), column from 3x3" square heavy tube (longer than hydrolic jack), and stop tab from 1/2" plate's scrap. The plate was between channel-base and a base of the jack. Another side of the jack was against stop-tab. Jack was 20T. It worked until heavy welds (square tube to channel) broke on 1 of 4 side, channel was bent too at the connection area. Base of the jack was about 6x6". I could not make that part of the plate perfectly flat, but it was very close to flat. I suspect you need to apply the force on the plate locally and not to rest a column on opposite side of the hull. It just too "springy". Welding C-shape-cut stop from heavy plate and placing screw-type jack between plate and C-shaped stop should work just fine. I think Kim has picture of it. This is if you do not want to make holes in the hull. May be the best way for big dents is to cut a hole trough the center of the dent and put a bolt trough heavy straitening plate with hull's dent between. The hole will allow to accommodate some stretched material and make it easier to get needed flatness. When done, weld up the hole. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Do you have any idea what sort of forces are typically used to push dents out of say a 36' orgami ? I ask because that gives an idea of the forces needed to create a shallow dent in a 36' orgami. > > Matt | 29078|29071|2012-10-12 16:48:38|Paul Wilson|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|A crane operator told me my boat was 9 tons. That is with a relatively heavy wood interior and tanks half full. Paul On 13/10/2012 9:12 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Rowland's boat, all steelwork done, plus ballast, was 15,000 lbs. So > how much yours weighs depends on how heavy an interior and engine you > put in, anyone's guess. > | 29079|29071|2012-10-12 20:11:31|Mark Hamill|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|You don't have any local boat moving companies??| 29080|29071|2012-10-12 21:16:40|martin|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Out here on the prairies there doesn't seem to be anyone who hauls larger boats. Most of what are considered large here are 25 to 30ft power boats. Any of the larger sailboats on the lakes have there own trailers. Last year I investigated renting a trailer but there was nothing in this area that would be low enough to accomodate a sail boat. Getting around all the transportation rules here in Ab. and B.C. are a major hassel and expense when it comes to license and insurance, not to mention all that is required to have a trailer inspected for it being legal on the highway. Martin.. > | 29081|29071|2012-10-12 21:31:50|martin demers|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|I had my 37 ft sailboat transported from Ontario to Quebec on a low bed trailer, the one they use for heavy machinery my boat was on it's craddle a crane placed my boat on the trailer those trailer are usualy in operation everywhere Martin, Montreal To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: losforsters@... Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 01:16:39 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day. Out here on the prairies there doesn't seem to be anyone who hauls larger boats. Most of what are considered large here are 25 to 30ft power boats. Any of the larger sailboats on the lakes have there own trailers. Last year I investigated renting a trailer but there was nothing in this area that would be low enough to accomodate a sail boat. Getting around all the transportation rules here in Ab. and B.C. are a major hassel and expense when it comes to license and insurance, not to mention all that is required to have a trailer inspected for it being legal on the highway. Martin.. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29082|29071|2012-10-12 21:32:14|James Pronk|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Did Bev and Rowland not just do that trip going the other way with there new boat? James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29083|29071|2012-10-12 21:40:08|martin|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|I haven't heard anything from Bev and Rowland in a very long time. It's been well over a couple of years since they were last out here at the acreage looking at Prairie Maid. Martin -| 29084|29071|2012-10-12 21:57:26|James Pronk|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Did they not move the new boat? I mean new boat to them. james [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29085|29071|2012-10-13 00:42:31|Aaron|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Find a heavy equipment operator like a big excavator they generaly have lowboy trailers. You will need a steel cradle to hold the boat. ________________________________ From: martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:16 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.   Out here on the prairies there doesn't seem to be anyone who hauls larger boats. Most of what are considered large here are 25 to 30ft power boats. Any of the larger sailboats on the lakes have there own trailers. Last year I investigated renting a trailer but there was nothing in this area that would be low enough to accomodate a sail boat. Getting around all the transportation rules here in Ab. and B.C. are a major hassel and expense when it comes to license and insurance, not to mention all that is required to have a trailer inspected for it being legal on the highway. Martin.. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29086|29056|2012-10-13 02:32:35|mauro gonzaga|Re: fairing compound for steel hull|No, the question was about the concern of creating a bump on the basis of the telescopic pole -the opposite side of the hollow to push out, note that this method allows to push out only, not pull in, but in a concave form the welding shrinkage always causes plate set in.-. The plywood is sufficient to avoid a dent, any bump would be temporary because when the jack will be released, by elasticity of the plate, it will return to previous position. Mauro ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 2:53 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fairing compound for steel hull   Plywood would make it imposible to get a tack on the short longitudinal . Just tack the contact point of the flatbar to the hull plate, so you can jack it out, without it falling over.Then, when the hollow is pushed out fair, put more tacks on the flat bar. When you let the jack off, it should stay fair. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Brent, again, just incredible, > > "To find the hollows, you can go over the hull at night, shining a > flashlight along the hull, and marking the hollows. They stand out > clearly this way." > > Incredible.... This would not be the first thing I would think of, and it is so simple and effective. I use a flashlight to find small dropped things on the floor -- lay the flashlight on the floor and turn it -- the smallest thing will cast a long shadow. For a hull, there will be brighter (humped) and darker (hollowed) areas. Excellent visualization technique applicable to any hull inspection, used boat, after a haul out, after a bump anything. > > "Make a telescoping pole, with a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe inside a 2 inch > sch 40 pipe, with a plate on the ends, and random holes to put abolt > thru at the needed length. You can tack a flat bar on edge over any > hollow point in the hull plate, and jack it out with a hydraulic jack, > on the end of the telescoping pole." > > The 1-1/2" / 2" telescoping pole trick... never thought of using this as a compression column -- what sized jack (tons) are you able to put on it, and can you guess what fraction of the jack capacity you have practically pushed with it ? > > I imagine you used something on the other side to keep from creating a hump on the opposite side of the boat ? Like a timber or big pad of plywood ? > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 18:24:29 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fairing compound for steel hull > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First, try fair the plate as much as possible, from the inside. Make a telescoping pole, with a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe inside a 2 inch sch 40 pipe, with a plate on the ends, and random holes to put abolt thru at the needed length. You can tack a flat bar on edge over any hollow point in the hull plate, and jack it out with a hydraulic jack, on the end of the telescoping pole. When it has been jacked out to fair, put several 2 inch tacks along the flat bar. When you let the jack off ,it will remain fair.Go over the whole hull , and decks ,that way. Doesn't matter what it looks like inside, as that will be covered with sprayfoam and never saen again. To find the hollows, you can go over the hull at night, shining a flashlight along the hull, and marking the hollows. They stand out clearly this way. > > Then you can use filler on the outside, to fair any remaining hollows. I have never had to use fillers, as my origami boats are totally fair. Thus, I know little about fairing compounds. Builders who use outdated building methods, have far more expertise in fairing compounds, as they use a lot of them. They would be your best source of info on fairing compounds. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > What kind of filler should we use for fairing compound on a steel hull > > > I have many dents on my hull! > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29087|29071|2012-10-13 12:21:05|Mark Hamill|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Martin: I trailered the catamaran (8000 lb.) through the US from Lake Erie Ontario to avoid going over the top of the Great Lakes in winter and came up to Carseland Alberta at the border. Would it be easier to go south and then along the US Canada border and then into Vancouver to avoid travelling in the mountains during winter?? Shelter island Marina has two travelifts. You might have to use the bigger one and they can use the arm on the lift to raise the mast. Mosquito Creek has a lift as well--cheaper than a crane I think?? I bought a trailer and had it checked out etc but if you have a single keel? I guess the only thing you can use is a low floor?? Have you checked what a boat mover would charge to come out and pick up your boat??--Maybe ask if they have any deliveries from the coast to alberta that you could piggy back on?? MarkH http://www.shelterislandmarina.com/ http://mosquitocreekmarina.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29088|29088|2012-10-13 14:09:28|MichaelF|Roller furler questions|Im getting ready to build a roller furler and I had a few questions for those who have done it before. In Brent's book he talks about using 1/2 inch schedule 40 and using plastic pipe bushings as bearings between the pipe and forestay. Do I run these the whole length of the forestay? If not how do I fasten them to keep them from sliding? I also noted further back he said some peoria were using 1 1/4 extrusion with a slot already cut into it. Does anyone know where to get it? I'm in Missouri. Also if anyone has suggestions I'd appreciate it. Im leaning towards the one constructed with the two sections of 1/2" schedule 40. Thanks, Michael| 29089|29071|2012-10-13 16:16:42|badpirate36|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Martin, Cardinal boat movers trucked my BS/36 from Nanaimo to Nth Van a couple of years ago. A BS/36 is a wide load, but not wide enough to be restrictive. check your total height, I had to take down the radar arch to fit on the ferry. A good boat mover will have adjustable trailers to fit any sized boat, and depending on how your boat is layed up may be able to load without a crane. Use a travel lift to launch, they can step your mast at the same time. Besides, neither one of us has twin keels, so we might just as well get use to pay'in for lifts /.o( Let the boat movers schedule a return trip, and you'll get a good price. Tom PS I just posted a pic of my bs36 on the ferry (I believe this gives me the record for the fastest crossing of the straight of Georgia in a bs/36... Although, some might say being on a ferry disqualified me /.o) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Martin: I trailered the catamaran (8000 lb.) through the US from Lake Erie Ontario to avoid going over the top of the Great Lakes in winter and came up to Carseland Alberta at the border. Would it be easier to go south and then along the US Canada border and then into Vancouver to avoid travelling in the mountains during winter?? Shelter island Marina has two travelifts. You might have to use the bigger one and they can use the arm on the lift to raise the mast. Mosquito Creek has a lift as well--cheaper than a crane I think?? > I bought a trailer and had it checked out etc but if you have a single keel? I guess the only thing you can use is a low floor?? Have you checked what a boat mover would charge to come out and pick up your boat??--Maybe ask if they have any deliveries from the coast to alberta that you could piggy back on?? MarkH > > http://www.shelterislandmarina.com/ > > http://mosquitocreekmarina.com/ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29090|29071|2012-10-13 16:21:50|Mark Hamill|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Martin: did you try Googling "Boat moving Alberta" ?? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29091|29071|2012-10-13 16:48:03|M.J. Malone|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|A travel cradle is a far better idea. There are hydraulic lifting trucks that can lift the boat by the cradle. Cradle has to be 6 to 8 inches off ground on blocks. Cradle must not exceed 6 foot width for the movers I have canvased. I made mine of 8 inch and 6 inch standard C channel. 6 inch probably would have worked but I found the 8 inch at the scrap yard and said what the heck, 35 cents a pound. The travel cradle for my boat weighs about 1000 pounds, probably could have gotten away with 600. If one has just welded up a BS boat, a cradle would be easy. I kept my verticals bolted to brackets on the top surface of the frame and bolted to cross members so any vertical can be removed. For screw jacks on the hull pads, I used highway light pole anchor bolts, stainless, 3 feet long, 1.25 in in diameter, came with big nuts at scrap yard. Thrown on trailer with plain steel, they were 35 cents a pound too. Could have used scaffold jack feet for standard Rona/HomeDespot scaffold but they were smaller, not stainless, and more expensive. Even if you never use the cradle again, I.e. boat goes south, the cradle can be moved on a skidoo / landscape trailer, and another BS will probably take if of your hands at the same price as the scrap that made it. No one needs a crane to get a boat on the first truck that gets them to the launch. Matt badpirate36 wrote: Martin, Cardinal boat movers trucked my BS/36 from Nanaimo to Nth Van a couple of years ago. A BS/36 is a wide load, but not wide enough to be restrictive. check your total height, I had to take down the radar arch to fit on the ferry. A good boat mover will have adjustable trailers to fit any sized boat, and depending on how your boat is layed up may be able to load without a crane. Use a travel lift to launch, they can step your mast at the same time. Besides, neither one of us has twin keels, so we might just as well get use to pay'in for lifts /.o( Let the boat movers schedule a return trip, and you'll get a good price. Tom PS I just posted a pic of my bs36 on the ferry (I believe this gives me the record for the fastest crossing of the straight of Georgia in a bs/36... Although, some might say being on a ferry disqualified me /.o) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Martin: I trailered the catamaran (8000 lb.) through the US from Lake Erie Ontario to avoid going over the top of the Great Lakes in winter and came up to Carseland Alberta at the border. Would it be easier to go south and then along the US Canada border and then into Vancouver to avoid travelling in the mountains during winter?? Shelter island Marina has two travelifts. You might have to use the bigger one and they can use the arm on the lift to raise the mast. Mosquito Creek has a lift as well--cheaper than a crane I think?? > I bought a trailer and had it checked out etc but if you have a single keel? I guess the only thing you can use is a low floor?? Have you checked what a boat mover would charge to come out and pick up your boat??--Maybe ask if they have any deliveries from the coast to alberta that you could piggy back on?? MarkH > > http://www.shelterislandmarina.com/ > > http://mosquitocreekmarina.com/ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29092|29071|2012-10-13 17:05:49|Paul Wilson|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|I have seen a few cradles made from fence posts with plywood gussets. Cheap and quick. As long as most of the weight is taken on the keel, there shouldn't be too much force on the cradle. Cargo straps from the rail, cleats or cockpit winches to the truck bed will help hold the boat upright as well. If done right, you should hardly need the cradle. Paul On 14/10/2012 9:48 a.m., M.J. Malone wrote: > > A travel cradle is a far better idea. There are hydraulic lifting > trucks that can lift the boat by the cradle. Cradle has to be 6 to 8 > inches off ground on blocks. Cradle must not exceed 6 foot width for > the movers I have canvased. I made mine of 8 inch and 6 inch standard > C channel. 6 inch probably would have worked but I found the 8 inch at > the scrap yard and said what the heck, 35 cents a pound. The travel > cradle for my boat weighs about 1000 pounds, probably could have > gotten away with 600. If one has just welded up a BS boat, a cradle > would be easy. I kept my verticals bolted to brackets on the top > surface of the frame and bolted to cross members so any vertical can > be removed. For screw jacks on the hull pads, I used highway light > pole anchor bolts, stainless, 3 feet long, 1.25 in in diameter, came > with big nuts at scrap yard. Thrown on trailer with plain steel, they > were 35 cents a pound too. Could have used scaffold jack feet for > standard Rona/HomeDespot scaffold but they were smaller, not > stainless, and more expensive. > > Even if you never use the cradle again, I.e. boat goes south, the > cradle can be moved on a skidoo / landscape trailer, and another BS > will probably take if of your hands at the same price as the scrap > that made it. No one needs a crane to get a boat on the first truck > that gets them to the launch. > > Matt > > badpirate36 > wrote: > > Martin, > > Cardinal boat movers trucked my BS/36 from Nanaimo to Nth Van a couple > of years ago. A BS/36 is a wide load, but not wide enough to be > restrictive. check your total height, I had to take down the radar > arch to fit on the ferry. A good boat mover will have adjustable > trailers to fit any sized boat, and depending on how your boat is > layed up may be able to load without a crane. Use a travel lift to > launch, they can step your mast at the same time. Besides, neither one > of us has twin keels, so we might just as well get use to pay'in for > lifts /.o( Let the boat movers schedule a return trip, and you'll get > a good price. > > Tom > PS I just posted a pic of my bs36 on the ferry > > (I believe this gives me the record for the fastest crossing of the > straight of Georgia in a bs/36... Although, some might say being on a > ferry disqualified me /.o) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Mark Hamill" > wrote: > > > > Martin: I trailered the catamaran (8000 lb.) through the US from > Lake Erie Ontario to avoid going over the top of the Great Lakes in > winter and came up to Carseland Alberta at the border. Would it be > easier to go south and then along the US Canada border and then into > Vancouver to avoid travelling in the mountains during winter?? Shelter > island Marina has two travelifts. You might have to use the bigger one > and they can use the arm on the lift to raise the mast. Mosquito Creek > has a lift as well--cheaper than a crane I think?? > > I bought a trailer and had it checked out etc but if you have a > single keel? I guess the only thing you can use is a low floor?? Have > you checked what a boat mover would charge to come out and pick up > your boat??--Maybe ask if they have any deliveries from the coast to > alberta that you could piggy back on?? MarkH > > > > http://www.shelterislandmarina.com/ > > > > http://mosquitocreekmarina.com/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 29093|29071|2012-10-13 17:59:07|Matt Malone|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Sorry, I forgot to make clear, with a travel cradle, the hydraulic truck lifts the boat & cradle, no crane needed. At the other end, the travel lift does the lifting. A crane at a your build location is generally $500 minimum, more if it goes over 4 hours. My uber shipping cradle cost $400 to build. A regular yard cradle is more flimsy. I have used timbers for a land cradle, very effective. Timbers after crane-ing a boat onto a truck would probably work but I would let the trucker decide that. Cranes at marinas are typically cheaper, or included in slip fees. Hydraulic truck costs the same as a regular crane it on boat truck. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:03:09 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day. > > I have seen a few cradles made from fence posts with plywood gussets. > Cheap and quick. As long as most of the weight is taken on the keel, > there shouldn't be too much force on the cradle. Cargo straps from the > rail, cleats or cockpit winches to the truck bed will help hold the boat > upright as well. If done right, you should hardly need the cradle. Paul > > On 14/10/2012 9:48 a.m., M.J. Malone wrote: > > > > A travel cradle is a far better idea. There are hydraulic lifting > > trucks that can lift the boat by the cradle. Cradle has to be 6 to 8 > > inches off ground on blocks. Cradle must not exceed 6 foot width for > > the movers I have canvased. I made mine of 8 inch and 6 inch standard > > C channel. 6 inch probably would have worked but I found the 8 inch at > > the scrap yard and said what the heck, 35 cents a pound. The travel > > cradle for my boat weighs about 1000 pounds, probably could have > > gotten away with 600. If one has just welded up a BS boat, a cradle > > would be easy. I kept my verticals bolted to brackets on the top > > surface of the frame and bolted to cross members so any vertical can > > be removed. For screw jacks on the hull pads, I used highway light > > pole anchor bolts, stainless, 3 feet long, 1.25 in in diameter, came > > with big nuts at scrap yard. Thrown on trailer with plain steel, they > > were 35 cents a pound too. Could have used scaffold jack feet for > > standard Rona/HomeDespot scaffold but they were smaller, not > > stainless, and more expensive. > > > > Even if you never use the cradle again, I.e. boat goes south, the > > cradle can be moved on a skidoo / landscape trailer, and another BS > > will probably take if of your hands at the same price as the scrap > > that made it. No one needs a crane to get a boat on the first truck > > that gets them to the launch. > > > > Matt > > > > badpirate36 > wrote: > > > > Martin, > > > > Cardinal boat movers trucked my BS/36 from Nanaimo to Nth Van a couple > > of years ago. A BS/36 is a wide load, but not wide enough to be > > restrictive. check your total height, I had to take down the radar > > arch to fit on the ferry. A good boat mover will have adjustable > > trailers to fit any sized boat, and depending on how your boat is > > layed up may be able to load without a crane. Use a travel lift to > > launch, they can step your mast at the same time. Besides, neither one > > of us has twin keels, so we might just as well get use to pay'in for > > lifts /.o( Let the boat movers schedule a return trip, and you'll get > > a good price. > > > > Tom > > PS I just posted a pic of my bs36 on the ferry > > > > (I believe this gives me the record for the fastest crossing of the > > straight of Georgia in a bs/36... Although, some might say being on a > > ferry disqualified me /.o) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Mark Hamill" > > wrote: > > > > > > Martin: I trailered the catamaran (8000 lb.) through the US from > > Lake Erie Ontario to avoid going over the top of the Great Lakes in > > winter and came up to Carseland Alberta at the border. Would it be > > easier to go south and then along the US Canada border and then into > > Vancouver to avoid travelling in the mountains during winter?? Shelter > > island Marina has two travelifts. You might have to use the bigger one > > and they can use the arm on the lift to raise the mast. Mosquito Creek > > has a lift as well--cheaper than a crane I think?? > > > I bought a trailer and had it checked out etc but if you have a > > single keel? I guess the only thing you can use is a low floor?? Have > > you checked what a boat mover would charge to come out and pick up > > your boat??--Maybe ask if they have any deliveries from the coast to > > alberta that you could piggy back on?? MarkH > > > > > > http://www.shelterislandmarina.com/ > > > > > > http://mosquitocreekmarina.com/ > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29094|29071|2012-10-13 19:31:21|Mark Hamill|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Tom : Regarding your comment about (" getting used to lifts") I am making a set of Beaching Legs that will allow me to do pretty much the same thing as twin keels--with more fiddling around of course--but it still allows one to be high and dry and upright with not much effort to make or use the things. Can send you the articles I found online if you want and there is an article in Wooden Boat. I'd include them in the files but there is no more room. I tried when I wanted to put the Copperpoxy files in there. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29095|29095|2012-10-14 09:57:45|James Pronk|URGENT|Hello, How are you? I hope you are well against me by I experiencing difficulties more or less embarrassing I am currently in Ivory Coast for a small business I have at maximum 7 days. I am writing this email to request your help because I am currently in an urgent problem I robbed my suitcase at the airport in Abidjan in the suitcase I had the envelope containing money and my time my cell phone that I had in a pocket of the bag and now I find myself liquidity. I'm a little worried because I did almost more liquid on me so I'd like you to support me by sending me $ 3500 by western union so I can at least pay for my hotel room and my return ticket as I must return home as soon as possible. Thank you for understanding me and sympathize with this terrible situation but certainly not worry I will pay upon my return set, here are the details which you can perform this mandate is the manager of the hotel here for free card I can not stay withdraw any under: NAME: PERRAS NAMES: OLIVIER ADDRESS: 17 RUE OF THE REPUBLIC 01 BP 2316 ABIDJAN 01 CITY: ABIDJAN COUNTRY: COTE D'IVOIRE I expect references to the Western Union transfer to my email and I am more than contacted via email what I required to make you this mail and if you do not have the full amount then mail me what you can to I can eat and pay hotel expenses for the time I can find a solution please. I'm really in need, I'm counting on you. Thank you. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29096|29095|2012-10-14 11:39:28|Mark Hamill|Re: URGENT|James: You have moved to the Ivory Coast and apparently need money because of a suitcase theft--shall I send the $3500 in Monopoly Money in bills or money order?? You also seem to have trouble expressing yourself today as well "... and now I find myself liquidity" MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29097|29095|2012-10-14 11:49:16|James Pronk|Re: URGENT|I am really charmed to read you and also to have to take an action pursuant my e-mail has as soon as possible. In this moment or I am really disturbed and I do not know or to put sucked you are right really which I make of the errors in my e-mail taking into account the current situation or I am me very badly return excuse me really for all his faults that I have make in my e-mail. For the sending of the 3500 $ I prefer that you do that by mandate western union and to send to me the references of the mandate by e-mail. As of my return I will give you fuller information of my come here in ivory Dimension it was really precipitated for this reason I did not have time to hold you to inform. I remain references of the mandate on standby I thank you for your supports I will be recognizing all my life to you. With the pleasure of reading again you James --- On Sun, 10/14/12, Mark Hamill wrote: From: Mark Hamill Subject: Re: [origamiboats] URGENT To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, October 14, 2012, 11:39 AM   James: You have moved to the Ivory Coast and apparently need money because of a suitcase theft--shall I send the $3500 in Monopoly Money in bills or money order?? You also seem to have trouble expressing yourself today as well "... and now I find myself liquidity" MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29098|29095|2012-10-14 12:12:35|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: URGENT|Hahahahahahahaha Bruno On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Mark Hamill wrote: > ** > > > James: You have moved to the Ivory Coast and apparently need money because > of a suitcase theft--shall I send the $3500 in Monopoly Money in bills or > money order?? You also seem to have trouble expressing yourself today as > well "... and now I find myself liquidity" MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Bruno Ogorelec**** Ivana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra**** 10020 Zagreb**** **** Tel. +385 1 22 22 575**** Mobile: +385 98 224 230 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29099|29099|2012-10-14 19:58:27|James Pronk|My Email was hacked|Thank you all that sent money, but I was not in the Ivory Coast! I really hope that non of you fell for that urgent email from my account. So sorry, James Pronk [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29100|29071|2012-10-14 22:31:27|haidan|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Congrats, sorry to hear about the cancer though, good luck. My boat, a twin keeler with 4850lbs of ballast weighed in at 18000 lbs when I launched, it was quite empty, no interior just 15 gallons of fuel, 300lbs engine, empty water tanks and some tools.| 29101|29071|2012-10-14 22:51:22|martin|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|-Thanks everyone for all the great information on this haul. I'll be in Vancouver in mid november to pick up some boat parts and I'll be checking out Shelter Island marina as a staging area for rigging and prep and then the big splash. Hopefully I'll be able to get all of the seemingly endless little bits and pieces done. This would certainly be much easier a project if one lived on the coast and had access to all the marine materials and expertise of those that have built and launched before. With a little luck Betty's medical issues will have a favourable outcome and we can experience a real off shore cruise. Martin.. > | 29102|29071|2012-10-14 23:31:15|Mark Hamill|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Martin: At Shelter Island and probably Mosquito Creek you can live on the boat while you work on it--or at least you used to be able to do that. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29103|29103|2012-10-14 23:39:53|James Pronk|A VOTRE AIMABLE ATTENTION|A votre attention Madame/ Monsieur Nous sommes heureux de vous annoncer que votre adresse émail a été récupérée automatiquement du tirage organisé par notre compagnie MICROSOFT portant sur la somme de 250.000Euros.     Pour entrer en possession du gain adresser un mail de confirmation à l'adresse électronique de Maître FRANCK PEETER  Huissier chargé de vous indiquer les conditions générales de Remise de votre gain.                                                Maître FRANCK PEETER                                       EMAIL:cabinetjuridique.franck.peeter@...                                                    Tel: 00226 72 70 99 00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29104|29103|2012-10-15 00:04:11|Mark Hamill|Re: A VOTRE AIMABLE ATTENTION|James: $3500 not enough--now you want 250,000 Euros???? :) MarkH ----- Original Message ----- From: James Pronk To: undisclosed recipients: Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:39 PM Subject: [origamiboats] A VOTRE AIMABLE ATTENTION A votre attention Madame/ Monsieur Nous sommes heureux de vous annoncer que votre adresse émail a été récupérée automatiquement du tirage organisé par notre compagnie MICROSOFT portant sur la somme de 250.000Euros. Pour entrer en possession du gain adresser un mail de confirmation à l'adresse électronique de Maître FRANCK PEETER Huissier chargé de vous indiquer les conditions générales de Remise de votre gain. Maître FRANCK PEETER EMAIL:cabinetjuridique.franck.peeter@... Tel: 00226 72 70 99 00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29105|29103|2012-10-15 00:13:13|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: A VOTRE AIMABLE ATTENTION|Somebody thinks the origmi boat builders are a wealthy lot. Bruno 2012/10/15 Mark Hamill > ** > > > James: $3500 not enough--now you want 250,000 Euros???? :) MarkH > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James Pronk > To: undisclosed recipients: > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:39 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] A VOTRE AIMABLE ATTENTION > > A votre attention Madame/ Monsieur > > Nous sommes heureux de vous > annoncer que votre adresse émail a été récupérée automatiquement du > tirage organisé par notre compagnie MICROSOFT portant sur la somme de > 250.000Euros. > Pour entrer en possession du gain adresser un mail > de confirmation à l'adresse électronique de Maître FRANCK PEETER > Huissier chargé de vous indiquer les conditions générales de Remise de > votre gain. > > Maître FRANCK PEETER > > EMAIL:cabinetjuridique.franck.peeter@... > Tel: 00226 72 70 99 00 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Bruno Ogorelec**** Ivana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra**** 10020 Zagreb**** **** Tel. +385 1 22 22 575**** Mobile: +385 98 224 230 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29106|29103|2012-10-15 15:57:20|brentswain38|Re: A VOTRE AIMABLE ATTENTION|I get a lot of messages asking me for my password and threatening to close my accounbt if I don't give it. When I asked yahoo about it they told me they never ask for a password, except when you first open an account. After that, NEVER give anyone your password. Some one figured out my yahoo password recently, so I changed it to something far more complicated. Once they get your password, they use it to send this type of scam, or spam. 012 8:39 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] A VOTRE AIMABLE ATTENTION > > > > A votre attention Madame/ Monsieur > > > > Nous sommes heureux de vous > > annoncer que votre adresse émail a été récupérée automatiquement du > > tirage organisé par notre compagnie MICROSOFT portant sur la somme de > > 250.000Euros. > > Pour entrer en possession du gain adresser un mail > > de confirmation à l'adresse électronique de Maître FRANCK PEETER > > Huissier chargé de vous indiquer les conditions générales de Remise de > > votre gain. > > > > Maître FRANCK PEETER > > > > EMAIL:cabinetjuridique.franck.peeter@... > > Tel: 00226 72 70 99 00 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Bruno Ogorelec**** > > > Ivana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra**** > > 10020 Zagreb**** > > **** > > Tel. +385 1 22 22 575**** > > Mobile: +385 98 224 230 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29107|29071|2012-10-15 16:03:23|brentswain38|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Ken who built a 36 and a trailer for it, in Smoky Lake AB for his twin keeler, still has it , as far as I know. Maybe it could be adapted for your boat . It is highway licensed. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > > Out here on the prairies there doesn't seem to be anyone who hauls larger boats. Most of what are considered large here are 25 to 30ft power boats. Any of the larger sailboats on the lakes have there own trailers. Last year I investigated renting a trailer but there was nothing in this area that would be low enough to accomodate a sail boat. Getting around all the transportation rules here in Ab. and B.C. are a major hassel and expense when it comes to license and insurance, not to mention all that is required to have a trailer inspected for it being legal on the highway. Martin.. > > > > | 29108|29071|2012-10-15 16:05:13|brentswain38|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|It went from BC to Edmonton a couple of years ago. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Did Bev and Rowland not just do that trip going the other way with there new boat? > James > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29109|29088|2012-10-15 16:18:52|brentswain38|Re: Roller furler questions|The 1 1/4 pipe is a far better way, with less welding. If you built your drum out of stainless, you could build your furler with zero aluminium welding. You used to be able to get 1 1/4 pipe with the slot already in it, for awning use, but here, it is no longer available. It may still be available in some places. It is easy to buy a piece of sch 40 and put a slot in it with a table saw. Just make sure you dont cut a twist in it, and have lots of help, to keep the pipe steady while you are making the cut. Lee Valley tools had a deburing tool, which helps a lot in cleaning up the cut. It costs around $14. For bigger boats you could use a bigger diameter pipe. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "MichaelF" wrote: > > Im getting ready to build a roller furler and I had a few questions for those who have done it before. In Brent's book he talks about using 1/2 inch schedule 40 and using plastic pipe bushings as bearings between the pipe and forestay. Do I run these the whole length of the forestay? If not how do I fasten them to keep them from sliding? > > I also noted further back he said some peoria were using 1 1/4 extrusion with a slot already cut into it. Does anyone know where to get it? I'm in Missouri. > > Also if anyone has suggestions I'd appreciate it. Im leaning towards the one constructed with the two sections of 1/2" schedule 40. > > Thanks, Michael > | 29110|29071|2012-10-15 16:19:34|Matt Malone|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Brent, any idea what would be needed to pull such a trailer ? Would it be a pintle hitch (pull it with a dump-truck) or mini fifth wheel (pull it with a 3500 truck) ? Or would it be a full 18-wheeler fifth wheel trailer ? Maximum trailer weight in Ontario is 4,600 kg or a little more than 10,000 lbs with an ordinary licence. Over 4,600kg, one needs a Class A -- tractor-trailer licence. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:03:20 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day. Ken who built a 36 and a trailer for it, in Smoky Lake AB for his twin keeler, still has it , as far as I know. Maybe it could be adapted for your boat . It is highway licensed. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > > Out here on the prairies there doesn't seem to be anyone who hauls larger boats. Most of what are considered large here are 25 to 30ft power boats. Any of the larger sailboats on the lakes have there own trailers. Last year I investigated renting a trailer but there was nothing in this area that would be low enough to accomodate a sail boat. Getting around all the transportation rules here in Ab. and B.C. are a major hassel and expense when it comes to license and insurance, not to mention all that is required to have a trailer inspected for it being legal on the highway. Martin.. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29111|29071|2012-10-15 16:22:07|brentswain38|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Thats 350 lbs over ballasted. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Congrats, sorry to hear about the cancer though, good luck. > > My boat, a twin keeler with 4850lbs of ballast weighed in at 18000 lbs when I launched, it was quite empty, no interior just 15 gallons of fuel, 300lbs engine, empty water tanks and some tools. > | 29112|29071|2012-10-15 16:27:20|brentswain38|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|I have seen 36's towed with a 5th wheel on a pickup, but as I leave the moving to the owners and have never had to move my own, I know little about that subject. Any truck driver could answer such questions. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Brent, any idea what would be needed to pull such a trailer ? > Would it be a pintle hitch (pull it with a dump-truck) or mini fifth wheel (pull it with a 3500 truck) ? > Or would it be a full 18-wheeler fifth wheel trailer ? > > Maximum trailer weight in Ontario is 4,600 kg or a little more than 10,000 lbs with an ordinary licence. > > Over 4,600kg, one needs a Class A -- tractor-trailer licence. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:03:20 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken who built a 36 and a trailer for it, in Smoky Lake AB for his twin keeler, still has it , as far as I know. Maybe it could be adapted for your boat . It is highway licensed. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Out here on the prairies there doesn't seem to be anyone who hauls larger boats. Most of what are considered large here are 25 to 30ft power boats. Any of the larger sailboats on the lakes have there own trailers. Last year I investigated renting a trailer but there was nothing in this area that would be low enough to accomodate a sail boat. Getting around all the transportation rules here in Ab. and B.C. are a major hassel and expense when it comes to license and insurance, not to mention all that is required to have a trailer inspected for it being legal on the highway. Martin.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29113|29103|2012-10-15 16:58:00|Mark Hamill|Re: A VOTRE AIMABLE ATTENTION|One of my bus riders was saying that you can download programs for free that will crack passwords--he used one for something and it took literally 24 hours and one billion tries but succeded in the end. And this was 10 years ago. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29114|29071|2012-10-15 19:28:21|martin|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|As a commercial driver for over 30years using every thing from single units all the way up to 100ft long Turnpike rigs all over western Canada there is no way I'd put myself infront of a load in the 20,000lb. range using a pick up. Some of the high end fancy diesel pickups are advertised as being able to pull it, but they don't make any mention of controlling the load once you get it moving. There's a very good reason why they make highway tractors to pull big loads. Brent have you heard from Ken Smith lately, I haven't talked to him in ages. Martin... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I have seen 36's towed with a 5th wheel on a pickup, but as I leave the moving to the owners and have never had to move my own, I know little about that subject. Any truck driver could answer such questions. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, any idea what would be needed to pull such a trailer ? > > Would it be a pintle hitch (pull it with a dump-truck) or mini fifth wheel (pull it with a 3500 truck) ? > > Or would it be a full 18-wheeler fifth wheel trailer ? > > > > Maximum trailer weight in Ontario is 4,600 kg or a little more than 10,000 lbs with an ordinary licence. > > > > Over 4,600kg, one needs a Class A -- tractor-trailer licence. > > > > Matt > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@ > > Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:03:20 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken who built a 36 and a trailer for it, in Smoky Lake AB for his twin keeler, still has it , as far as I know. Maybe it could be adapted for your boat . It is highway licensed. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Out here on the prairies there doesn't seem to be anyone who hauls larger boats. Most of what are considered large here are 25 to 30ft power boats. Any of the larger sailboats on the lakes have there own trailers. Last year I investigated renting a trailer but there was nothing in this area that would be low enough to accomodate a sail boat. Getting around all the transportation rules here in Ab. and B.C. are a major hassel and expense when it comes to license and insurance, not to mention all that is required to have a trailer inspected for it being legal on the highway. Martin.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 29115|29088|2012-10-15 20:13:30|MICHAEL FELTON|Re: Roller furler questions|Thanks for the reply Brent,  Do you think the 1 1/4" Schedule 40 Aluminum would be enough for a 44 foot Boat My Headstay is About 50' and My Genoa is 545 Sq ft. Thanks again, Michael From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 3:18 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Roller furler questions   The 1 1/4 pipe is a far better way, with less welding. If you built your drum out of stainless, you could build your furler with zero aluminium welding. You used to be able to get 1 1/4 pipe with the slot already in it, for awning use, but here, it is no longer available. It may still be available in some places. It is easy to buy a piece of sch 40 and put a slot in it with a table saw. Just make sure you dont cut a twist in it, and have lots of help, to keep the pipe steady while you are making the cut. Lee Valley tools had a deburing tool, which helps a lot in cleaning up the cut. It costs around $14. For bigger boats you could use a bigger diameter pipe. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "MichaelF" wrote: > > Im getting ready to build a roller furler and I had a few questions for those who have done it before. In Brent's book he talks about using 1/2 inch schedule 40 and using plastic pipe bushings as bearings between the pipe and forestay. Do I run these the whole length of the forestay? If not how do I fasten them to keep them from sliding? > > I also noted further back he said some peoria were using 1 1/4 extrusion with a slot already cut into it. Does anyone know where to get it? I'm in Missouri. > > Also if anyone has suggestions I'd appreciate it. Im leaning towards the one constructed with the two sections of 1/2" schedule 40. > > Thanks, Michael > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29116|29071|2012-10-16 11:57:16|haidan|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|Well I've got a 48' foot mast too, so I figure they balance, and I'm still having to put that first reef in at 10-12 knots. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Thats 350 lbs over ballasted. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > > > Congrats, sorry to hear about the cancer though, good luck. > > > > My boat, a twin keeler with 4850lbs of ballast weighed in at 18000 lbs when I launched, it was quite empty, no interior just 15 gallons of fuel, 300lbs engine, empty water tanks and some tools. > > > | 29117|29088|2012-10-16 12:48:41|haidan|Re: Roller furler questions|I built mine out of the two 1/2" pipes I had trouble finding the slotted pipe and also the 1/2" version has a finer entry when the whole sail is out in light winds, who knows if it really makes a difference. I welded the two pipes together, 2" weld every 6" alternating sides then I ran the whole thing through a table saw to cut the slot, having them welded together like that keeps it from twisting when you're running it along the fence on the saw. I made my drum from an aluminum pot I got at the scrap yard, as I could find any short sections of big diameter pipe, I figured the bigger the better for the drum it uses more line but as it's 10" or so has all the mechanical advantage I'll ever need to crank it in. The bushing is some 5/16" pex pipe from the hardware store it fit fairly tightly over the galv cable and has some play in the 1/2" pipe, it runs the full length so no need to fasten it, you need some plastic for a bearing at the bottom for the whole thing to sit on and to keep the cable terminal from wearing into the drum, I used a donut of UHMW cut out with a hole saw with some SS fender washers on each side. One big screw up I did was not staggering the joint between the 20' lengths of pipe enough, so that when you're putting it up or taking it down it has a tendency to put to much bending force on the weld there and will snap in two. I broke one weld putting it up the initially and broke the other joint the other day taking it down to shorten the forestay. Both times I just put a 8" plate over the joint and bolted it together. So far so good, once it's up it doesn't really get any sort of strain in that way it just the getting it up that's hard. If I were to do it again I would I stagger the joints as much as I could, in fact since I needed <50 and was dealing with 4 20' lengths and 2 10' lengths I should of just reversed the one side and would of had the joints 10' apart. The de-burring tool is a must and you can usually find them in any tool store they look like this http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSVAbkKNxC27eBwl81lfyY1nJzUk8Z_mMimcQ9rjulSjHF25QSD I had a hell of a time finding one till I knew what I was looking for. Also wrapping a pencil or something like that with some fine sandpaper and running it along inside the pipe holding on to the sandpaper is a good way to smooth it out after the burrs are removed.| 29118|29088|2012-10-16 14:51:11|brentswain38|Re: Roller furler questions|I'd consider 1 1/2 inch sch 40 aluminium for a boat that size. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MICHAEL FELTON wrote: > > Thanks for the reply Brent,  Do you think the 1 1/4" Schedule 40 Aluminum would be enough for a 44 foot Boat My Headstay is About 50' and My Genoa is 545 Sq ft. Thanks again, Michael > > > > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 3:18 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Roller furler questions > >   > The 1 1/4 pipe is a far better way, with less welding. If you built your drum out of stainless, you could build your furler with zero aluminium welding. > You used to be able to get 1 1/4 pipe with the slot already in it, for awning use, but here, it is no longer available. It may still be available in some places. It is easy to buy a piece of sch 40 and put a slot in it with a table saw. Just make sure you dont cut a twist in it, and have lots of help, to keep the pipe steady while you are making the cut. Lee Valley tools had a deburing tool, which helps a lot in cleaning up the cut. It costs around $14. > For bigger boats you could use a bigger diameter pipe. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "MichaelF" wrote: > > > > Im getting ready to build a roller furler and I had a few questions for those who have done it before. In Brent's book he talks about using 1/2 inch schedule 40 and using plastic pipe bushings as bearings between the pipe and forestay. Do I run these the whole length of the forestay? If not how do I fasten them to keep them from sliding? > > > > I also noted further back he said some peoria were using 1 1/4 extrusion with a slot already cut into it. Does anyone know where to get it? I'm in Missouri. > > > > Also if anyone has suggestions I'd appreciate it. Im leaning towards the one constructed with the two sections of 1/2" schedule 40. > > > > Thanks, Michael > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29119|29088|2012-10-16 16:33:46|brentswain38|Re: Roller furler questions|For my 1x7 galvanized fore stay, I put 5/16th ID stainless flare tubing, a 4 inch length every 2 ft, for the furler to ride on. I epoxied the stay, slid the stainless tubing bits over the epoxy and hit them with a centre punch to keep them in place . Lots of clearance. No wear on the galv wire. I once made the mistake of putting a grease nipple on the bottom and pumping it full of grease. When water froze in the pipe, I couldn't use it till it warmed up. Then I got rid of the grease. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > I built mine out of the two 1/2" pipes I had trouble finding the slotted pipe and also the 1/2" version has a finer entry when the whole sail is out in light winds, who knows if it really makes a difference. > > I welded the two pipes together, 2" weld every 6" alternating sides then I ran the whole thing through a table saw to cut the slot, having them welded together like that keeps it from twisting when you're running it along the fence on the saw. > > I made my drum from an aluminum pot I got at the scrap yard, as I could find any short sections of big diameter pipe, I figured the bigger the better for the drum it uses more line but as it's 10" or so has all the mechanical advantage I'll ever need to crank it in. > > The bushing is some 5/16" pex pipe from the hardware store it fit fairly tightly over the galv cable and has some play in the 1/2" pipe, it runs the full length so no need to fasten it, you need some plastic for a bearing at the bottom for the whole thing to sit on and to keep the cable terminal from wearing into the drum, I used a donut of UHMW cut out with a hole saw with some SS fender washers on each side. > > One big screw up I did was not staggering the joint between the 20' lengths of pipe enough, so that when you're putting it up or taking it down it has a tendency to put to much bending force on the weld there and will snap in two. I broke one weld putting it up the initially and broke the other joint the other day taking it down to shorten the forestay. Both times I just put a 8" plate over the joint and bolted it together. So far so good, once it's up it doesn't really get any sort of strain in that way it just the getting it up that's hard. If I were to do it again I would I stagger the joints as much as I could, in fact since I needed <50 and was dealing with 4 20' lengths and 2 10' lengths I should of just reversed the one side and would of had the joints 10' apart. > > The de-burring tool is a must and you can usually find them in any tool store they look like this > > http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSVAbkKNxC27eBwl81lfyY1nJzUk8Z_mMimcQ9rjulSjHF25QSD > > I had a hell of a time finding one till I knew what I was looking for. > Also wrapping a pencil or something like that with some fine sandpaper and running it along inside the pipe holding on to the sandpaper is a good way to smooth it out after the burrs are removed. > | 29120|29071|2012-10-16 16:37:07|brentswain38|Re: Getting closer to Boat Haul day.|When you have lived aboard for many years, she gets heavier and you have to reef later and later. My rig was perfect when my boat was new and relatively empty. I could use a taller rig now that I have decades of junk aboard. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Well I've got a 48' foot mast too, so I figure they balance, and I'm still having to put that first reef in at 10-12 knots. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Thats 350 lbs over ballasted. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > > > > > Congrats, sorry to hear about the cancer though, good luck. > > > > > > My boat, a twin keeler with 4850lbs of ballast weighed in at 18000 lbs when I launched, it was quite empty, no interior just 15 gallons of fuel, 300lbs engine, empty water tanks and some tools. > > > > > > | 29121|29121|2012-10-16 19:55:03|Kim|Canadians rescuing Australians!|Completely off-topic; but ... Looks like you Canadians are now getting involved in rescuing dismasted Aussie sailors off the Australian coast: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/10/16/air-canada-australia-rescue-sailor.html :-) Cheers ... Kim.| 29122|29121|2012-10-16 20:22:38|Mark Hamill|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|How much you want to bet that Air Canada lost the guys luggage even though they never made physical contact. :) And it must have killed them to actually HELP someone. Can you tell I've been the victim of one too many Air Canada strikes? If he had had my mast it would never have broken--I'm expecting they will find that thing in my burial site a million years from now. Markh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29123|29121|2012-10-16 21:32:12|M.J. Malone|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|I read that story earlier in the day. It is only fitting, the Australians have been the ones to come to everyone else's aid in the Southern Ocean. The story was not completely clear but it sounds like he had been dismasted a while ago and was trying some self recovery for some time before requesting help. One never knows the details of each situation. I can barely go an entire weekend working on the boat without realizing I do not have something I need and having to go to the store. Still, putting some thought to jury rigging before it is necessary could not hurt. I have tried to raise a 20 foot mast on a dingy on a lake and had 40 times the trouble as on dry land (40 minutes vs one minute). I have also tried raising timbers for various reasons and over 12 feet it becomes far more interesting. Then again, perhaps he lost all his sails along with their furlers. It would be tough leaving a boat that is not sinking, but you have no way to control. Kim if there is a local story with more details, I would be interested in reading it. Matt Mark Hamill wrote: How much you want to bet that Air Canada lost the guys luggage even though they never made physical contact. :) And it must have killed them to actually HELP someone. Can you tell I've been the victim of one too many Air Canada strikes? If he had had my mast it would never have broken--I'm expecting they will find that thing in my burial site a million years from now. Markh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29124|29124|2012-10-17 11:59:00|southcoveemail|Military surplus NS, NB|Can someone help locate a source for military surplus paints in Halifax or nearby? When I built my boat 13 years ago I got wonderful high quality epoxy paints @ £2/l if I remember well from Bogey Knights in Plymouth. Is there another place like that in Canada that would ship to NS? Cheers Thierry| 29125|29121|2012-10-18 07:36:27|Matt Malone|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|Follow up story with a telephone interview with the skipper. http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/sailor_grateful_to_air_canada_crew_that_aided_in_rescue/e1b7f953 He was near the coast, and was hit by a storm. Went more out to sea to get better conditions. Conditions worsened. He was rolled and dismasted 9 days ago. After the storm abated, it took him 2 days to put the boat in order. He believed he was possibly 120 miles from shore. He sailed under jury rig for some days. He did not know his position. After 9 days, he could not see the 'loom' of Sydney, glow in the distance at night I would guess. He set of his eprib. He was actually about 500km from Sydney, and, if I know my winds, about down-wind of Sydney Given that he did not know his position, one would have to guess his primary navigation system and radio was damaged in the roll-over, his handheld GPS was damaged, and his sextant was damaged, or possibly as a coastal sailor, he had no sextant. If he had known his position, at least he would have known he was not making headway toward land I guess, or, he might have steered for a downwind location. It is likely if he was a coastal sailor he did not carry provisions for that, or, the provisions were damaged also. He was in the position he was in. We can only take lessons from it. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: m_j_malone@... Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:32:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! I read that story earlier in the day. It is only fitting, the Australians have been the ones to come to everyone else's aid in the Southern Ocean. The story was not completely clear but it sounds like he had been dismasted a while ago and was trying some self recovery for some time before requesting help. One never knows the details of each situation. I can barely go an entire weekend working on the boat without realizing I do not have something I need and having to go to the store. Still, putting some thought to jury rigging before it is necessary could not hurt. I have tried to raise a 20 foot mast on a dingy on a lake and had 40 times the trouble as on dry land (40 minutes vs one minute). I have also tried raising timbers for various reasons and over 12 feet it becomes far more interesting. Then again, perhaps he lost all his sails along with their furlers. It would be tough leaving a boat that is not sinking, but you have no way to control. Kim if there is a local story with more details, I would be interested in reading it. Matt Mark Hamill wrote: How much you want to bet that Air Canada lost the guys luggage even though they never made physical contact. :) And it must have killed them to actually HELP someone. Can you tell I've been the victim of one too many Air Canada strikes? If he had had my mast it would never have broken--I'm expecting they will find that thing in my burial site a million years from now. Markh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29126|29121|2012-10-18 14:00:19|Paul Wilson|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|There is a strong current off Australia. I suspect it pushed him off much more than he thought. I don't see why he wouldn't have a working gps. Handheld with AA batteries is a no brainer. Maybe he didn't have the batteries in a sealed bag and they got wet? Paul On 19/10/2012 12:36 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > Follow up story with a telephone interview with the skipper. > > http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/sailor_grateful_to_air_canada_crew_that_aided_in_rescue/e1b7f953 > > He was near the coast, and was hit by a storm. > Went more out to sea to get better conditions. > Conditions worsened. > He was rolled and dismasted 9 days ago. > After the storm abated, it took him 2 days to put the boat in order. > He believed he was possibly 120 miles from shore. > He sailed under jury rig for some days. > He did not know his position. > After 9 days, he could not see the 'loom' of Sydney, glow in the distance at night I would guess. > He set of his eprib. > He was actually about 500km from Sydney, and, if I know my winds, about down-wind of Sydney > > Given that he did not know his position, one would have to guess his primary navigation system and radio was damaged in the roll-over, his handheld GPS was damaged, and his sextant was damaged, or possibly as a coastal sailor, he had no sextant. If he had known his position, at least he would have known he was not making headway toward land I guess, or, he might have steered for a downwind location. It is likely if he was a coastal sailor he did not carry provisions for that, or, the provisions were damaged also. > > He was in the position he was in. We can only take lessons from it. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:32:07 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I read that story earlier in the day. It is only fitting, the Australians have been the ones to come to everyone else's aid in the Southern Ocean. > > > > The story was not completely clear but it sounds like he had been dismasted a while ago and was trying some self recovery for some time before requesting help. One never knows the details of each situation. I can barely go an entire weekend working on the boat without realizing I do not have something I need and having to go to the store. Still, putting some thought to jury rigging before it is necessary could not hurt. I have tried to raise a 20 foot mast on a dingy on a lake and had 40 times the trouble as on dry land (40 minutes vs one minute). I have also tried raising timbers for various reasons and over 12 feet it becomes far more interesting. Then again, perhaps he lost all his sails along with their furlers. It would be tough leaving a boat that is not sinking, but you have no way to control. > > > > Kim if there is a local story with more details, I would be interested in reading it. > > > > Matt > > > > Mark Hamill wrote: > > > > How much you want to bet that Air Canada lost the guys luggage even though they never made physical contact. :) > > > > And it must have killed them to actually HELP someone. > > > > Can you tell I've been the victim of one too many Air Canada strikes? > > > > If he had had my mast it would never have broken--I'm expecting they will find that thing in my burial site a million years from now. Markh > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 29127|29121|2012-10-18 14:34:51|Matt Malone|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|There is a little more detail here. http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3613780.htm That sounds like a really fast roll. It is a good thing he was not seriously injured, or on deck untethered. "The boat was swamped and cracked. Its mast split in pieces. But mistakenly thinking he was closer to land than he was, Glenn Ey patched up his boat and headed back for Sydney. " "And after seven days I still couldn't see the loom, after eight days I couldn't see the loom. I thought no, I'm stuck in some current here, I don't really know where I am. And on the ninth morning, I decided to set the EPIRB (Emergency Position-Indicating Radio Beacon) off. " His handheld GPS may have seen seawater. Whatever the events that lead to the circumstance he was in, it seemed he gave it a good try after the roll. Might be the same Glenn Ey, from Brisbane: http://cav36.com/Registration.html Details on the Cavalier 36: http://bluewaterboats.org/cavalier-36/ Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:57:32 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! There is a strong current off Australia. I suspect it pushed him off much more than he thought. I don't see why he wouldn't have a working gps. Handheld with AA batteries is a no brainer. Maybe he didn't have the batteries in a sealed bag and they got wet? Paul On 19/10/2012 12:36 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > Follow up story with a telephone interview with the skipper. > > http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/sailor_grateful_to_air_canada_crew_that_aided_in_rescue/e1b7f953 > > He was near the coast, and was hit by a storm. > Went more out to sea to get better conditions. > Conditions worsened. > He was rolled and dismasted 9 days ago. > After the storm abated, it took him 2 days to put the boat in order. > He believed he was possibly 120 miles from shore. > He sailed under jury rig for some days. > He did not know his position. > After 9 days, he could not see the 'loom' of Sydney, glow in the distance at night I would guess. > He set of his eprib. > He was actually about 500km from Sydney, and, if I know my winds, about down-wind of Sydney > > Given that he did not know his position, one would have to guess his primary navigation system and radio was damaged in the roll-over, his handheld GPS was damaged, and his sextant was damaged, or possibly as a coastal sailor, he had no sextant. If he had known his position, at least he would have known he was not making headway toward land I guess, or, he might have steered for a downwind location. It is likely if he was a coastal sailor he did not carry provisions for that, or, the provisions were damaged also. > > He was in the position he was in. We can only take lessons from it. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:32:07 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I read that story earlier in the day. It is only fitting, the Australians have been the ones to come to everyone else's aid in the Southern Ocean. > > > > The story was not completely clear but it sounds like he had been dismasted a while ago and was trying some self recovery for some time before requesting help. One never knows the details of each situation. I can barely go an entire weekend working on the boat without realizing I do not have something I need and having to go to the store. Still, putting some thought to jury rigging before it is necessary could not hurt. I have tried to raise a 20 foot mast on a dingy on a lake and had 40 times the trouble as on dry land (40 minutes vs one minute). I have also tried raising timbers for various reasons and over 12 feet it becomes far more interesting. Then again, perhaps he lost all his sails along with their furlers. It would be tough leaving a boat that is not sinking, but you have no way to control. > > > > Kim if there is a local story with more details, I would be interested in reading it. > > > > Matt > > > > Mark Hamill wrote: > > > > How much you want to bet that Air Canada lost the guys luggage even though they never made physical contact. :) > > > > And it must have killed them to actually HELP someone. > > > > Can you tell I've been the victim of one too many Air Canada strikes? > > > > If he had had my mast it would never have broken--I'm expecting they will find that thing in my burial site a million years from now. Markh > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29128|29121|2012-10-18 15:54:48|Paul Wilson|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|Cavalier 36's are good boats but it is a poor time of year to cross the Tasman. It is too early. I live on the Tasman Sea and we have had storm after storm lately. We are still in a winter weather pattern of low after low. The fact that he was hit by the storm after only a few days after departure makes me think he hadn't looked at the weather properly before he left. The large storms don't suddenly come out of nowhere. Anyway, in my opinion the only type of people who go across the Tasman Sea in winter are either ignorant amateurs or professionals who really know what they are doing. My friend is the latter yet even then, he was still rolled over on one trip. I have just enough experience to know that I would never try it. When I first started going offshore, I just looked up at the sky and left. I paid the price a few times too so I try to be smarter about it now.. I did sail to Aus once in late November on a friends boat....we had a current of close to a knot against us for many days, even though we were in the middle of the Tasman. Closer to the Aus coast the current can be much more than that....2 to 3 knots is not uncommon. http://www.oceanclimatechange.org.au/content/images/uploads/east_australian_current_fig2.jpg Cheers, Paul On 19/10/2012 7:34 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > There is a little more detail here. > > http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3613780.htm > > That sounds like a really fast roll. It is a good thing he was not seriously > injured, or on deck untethered. > > "The boat was swamped and cracked. Its mast split in pieces. But > > mistakenly thinking he was closer to land than he was, Glenn Ey > patched > up his boat and headed back for Sydney. " > > "And after seven days I still couldn't see the loom, after eight > days I > couldn't see the loom. I thought no, I'm stuck in some > current here, I > don't really know where I am. And on the ninth > morning, I decided to set > the EPIRB (Emergency > Position-Indicating Radio Beacon) off. " > > His handheld GPS may have seen seawater. Whatever the events that > lead to the circumstance he was in, it seemed he gave it a good try > after the roll. > > Might be the same Glenn Ey, from Brisbane: > > http://cav36.com/Registration.html > > Details on the Cavalier 36: > > http://bluewaterboats.org/cavalier-36/ > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:57:32 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a strong current off Australia. I suspect it pushed him off > > much more than he thought. I don't see why he wouldn't have a working > > gps. Handheld with AA batteries is a no brainer. Maybe he didn't have > > the batteries in a sealed bag and they got wet? > > > > Paul > > > > On 19/10/2012 12:36 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > >> Follow up story with a telephone interview with the skipper. >> http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/sailor_grateful_to_air_canada_crew_that_aided_in_rescue/e1b7f953 >> He was near the coast, and was hit by a storm. >> Went more out to sea to get better conditions. >> Conditions worsened. >> He was rolled and dismasted 9 days ago. >> After the storm abated, it took him 2 days to put the boat in order. >> He believed he was possibly 120 miles from shore. >> He sailed under jury rig for some days. >> He did not know his position. >> After 9 days, he could not see the 'loom' of Sydney, glow in the distance at night I would guess. >> He set of his eprib. >> He was actually about 500km from Sydney, and, if I know my winds, about down-wind of Sydney >> Given that he did not know his position, one would have to guess his primary navigation system and radio was damaged in the roll-over, his handheld GPS was damaged, and his sextant was damaged, or possibly as a coastal sailor, he had no sextant. If he had known his position, at least he would have known he was not making headway toward land I guess, or, he might have steered for a downwind location. It is likely if he was a coastal sailor he did not carry provisions for that, or, the provisions were damaged also. >> He was in the position he was in. We can only take lessons from it. >> Matt >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: m_j_malone@... >> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:32:07 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! >> >> >> >> >> >> I read that story earlier in the day. It is only fitting, the Australians have been the ones to come to everyone else's aid in the Southern Ocean. >> The story was not completely clear but it sounds like he had been dismasted a while ago and was trying some self recovery for some time before requesting help. One never knows the details of each situation. I can barely go an entire weekend working on the boat without realizing I do not have something I need and having to go to the store. Still, putting some thought to jury rigging before it is necessary could not hurt. I have tried to raise a 20 foot mast on a dingy on a lake and had 40 times the trouble as on dry land (40 minutes vs one minute). I have also tried raising timbers for various reasons and over 12 feet it becomes far more interesting. Then again, perhaps he lost all his sails along with their furlers. It would be tough leaving a boat that is not sinking, but you have no way to control. >> Kim if there is a local story with more details, I would be interested in reading it. >> Matt >> Mark Hamill wrote: >> How much you want to bet that Air Canada lost the guys luggage even though they never made physical contact. :) >> And it must have killed them to actually HELP someone. >> Can you tell I've been the victim of one too many Air Canada strikes? >> If he had had my mast it would never have broken--I'm expecting they will find that thing in my burial site a million years from now. Markh >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> ------------------------------------ >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 29129|29121|2012-10-18 16:03:49|Matt Malone|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|That graphic was very interesting. The orange and blue is that summer and winter ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 08:52:01 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! Cavalier 36's are good boats but it is a poor time of year to cross the Tasman. It is too early. I live on the Tasman Sea and we have had storm after storm lately. We are still in a winter weather pattern of low after low. The fact that he was hit by the storm after only a few days after departure makes me think he hadn't looked at the weather properly before he left. The large storms don't suddenly come out of nowhere. Anyway, in my opinion the only type of people who go across the Tasman Sea in winter are either ignorant amateurs or professionals who really know what they are doing. My friend is the latter yet even then, he was still rolled over on one trip. I have just enough experience to know that I would never try it. When I first started going offshore, I just looked up at the sky and left. I paid the price a few times too so I try to be smarter about it now.. I did sail to Aus once in late November on a friends boat....we had a current of close to a knot against us for many days, even though we were in the middle of the Tasman. Closer to the Aus coast the current can be much more than that....2 to 3 knots is not uncommon. http://www.oceanclimatechange.org.au/content/images/uploads/east_australian_current_fig2.jpg Cheers, Paul On 19/10/2012 7:34 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > There is a little more detail here. > > http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3613780.htm > > That sounds like a really fast roll. It is a good thing he was not seriously > injured, or on deck untethered. > > "The boat was swamped and cracked. Its mast split in pieces. But > > mistakenly thinking he was closer to land than he was, Glenn Ey > patched > up his boat and headed back for Sydney. " > > "And after seven days I still couldn't see the loom, after eight > days I > couldn't see the loom. I thought no, I'm stuck in some > current here, I > don't really know where I am. And on the ninth > morning, I decided to set > the EPIRB (Emergency > Position-Indicating Radio Beacon) off. " > > His handheld GPS may have seen seawater. Whatever the events that > lead to the circumstance he was in, it seemed he gave it a good try > after the roll. > > Might be the same Glenn Ey, from Brisbane: > > http://cav36.com/Registration.html > > Details on the Cavalier 36: > > http://bluewaterboats.org/cavalier-36/ > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:57:32 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a strong current off Australia. I suspect it pushed him off > > much more than he thought. I don't see why he wouldn't have a working > > gps. Handheld with AA batteries is a no brainer. Maybe he didn't have > > the batteries in a sealed bag and they got wet? > > > > Paul > > > > On 19/10/2012 12:36 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > >> Follow up story with a telephone interview with the skipper. >> http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/sailor_grateful_to_air_canada_crew_that_aided_in_rescue/e1b7f953 >> He was near the coast, and was hit by a storm. >> Went more out to sea to get better conditions. >> Conditions worsened. >> He was rolled and dismasted 9 days ago. >> After the storm abated, it took him 2 days to put the boat in order. >> He believed he was possibly 120 miles from shore. >> He sailed under jury rig for some days. >> He did not know his position. >> After 9 days, he could not see the 'loom' of Sydney, glow in the distance at night I would guess. >> He set of his eprib. >> He was actually about 500km from Sydney, and, if I know my winds, about down-wind of Sydney >> Given that he did not know his position, one would have to guess his primary navigation system and radio was damaged in the roll-over, his handheld GPS was damaged, and his sextant was damaged, or possibly as a coastal sailor, he had no sextant. If he had known his position, at least he would have known he was not making headway toward land I guess, or, he might have steered for a downwind location. It is likely if he was a coastal sailor he did not carry provisions for that, or, the provisions were damaged also. >> He was in the position he was in. We can only take lessons from it. >> Matt >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: m_j_malone@... >> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:32:07 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! >> >> >> >> >> >> I read that story earlier in the day. It is only fitting, the Australians have been the ones to come to everyone else's aid in the Southern Ocean. >> The story was not completely clear but it sounds like he had been dismasted a while ago and was trying some self recovery for some time before requesting help. One never knows the details of each situation. I can barely go an entire weekend working on the boat without realizing I do not have something I need and having to go to the store. Still, putting some thought to jury rigging before it is necessary could not hurt. I have tried to raise a 20 foot mast on a dingy on a lake and had 40 times the trouble as on dry land (40 minutes vs one minute). I have also tried raising timbers for various reasons and over 12 feet it becomes far more interesting. Then again, perhaps he lost all his sails along with their furlers. It would be tough leaving a boat that is not sinking, but you have no way to control. >> Kim if there is a local story with more details, I would be interested in reading it. >> Matt >> Mark Hamill wrote: >> How much you want to bet that Air Canada lost the guys luggage even though they never made physical contact. :) >> And it must have killed them to actually HELP someone. >> Can you tell I've been the victim of one too many Air Canada strikes? >> If he had had my mast it would never have broken--I'm expecting they will find that thing in my burial site a million years from now. Markh >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> ------------------------------------ >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29130|29121|2012-10-18 16:20:11|Paul Wilson|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|Good question....orange is surface, blue is subsurface. http://www.solartran.com.au/tullywater_files/image002.jpg Paul On 19/10/2012 9:03 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > That graphic was very interesting. The orange and blue is that summer and winter ? > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 08:52:01 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cavalier 36's are good boats but it is a poor time of year to cross the > > Tasman. It is too early. I live on the Tasman Sea and we have had > > storm after storm lately. We are still in a winter weather pattern of > > low after low. The fact that he was hit by the storm after only a few > > days after departure makes me think he hadn't looked at the weather > > properly before he left. The large storms don't suddenly come out of > > nowhere. > > > > Anyway, in my opinion the only type of people who go across the Tasman > > Sea in winter are either ignorant amateurs or professionals who really > > know what they are doing. My friend is the latter yet even then, he was > > still rolled over on one trip. I have just enough experience to know > > that I would never try it. When I first started going offshore, I just > > looked up at the sky and left. I paid the price a few times too so I > > try to be smarter about it now.. > > > > I did sail to Aus once in late November on a friends boat....we had a > > current of close to a knot against us for many days, even though we were > > in the middle of the Tasman. Closer to the Aus coast the current can be > > much more than that....2 to 3 knots is not uncommon. > > > > http://www.oceanclimatechange.org.au/content/images/uploads/east_australian_current_fig2.jpg > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > On 19/10/2012 7:34 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > >> There is a little more detail here. >> http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3613780.htm >> That sounds like a really fast roll. It is a good thing he was not seriously >> injured, or on deck untethered. >> "The boat was swamped and cracked. Its mast split in pieces. But >> mistakenly thinking he was closer to land than he was, Glenn Ey >> patched >> up his boat and headed back for Sydney. " >> "And after seven days I still couldn't see the loom, after eight >> days I >> couldn't see the loom. I thought no, I'm stuck in some >> current here, I >> don't really know where I am. And on the ninth >> morning, I decided to set >> the EPIRB (Emergency >> Position-Indicating Radio Beacon) off. " >> His handheld GPS may have seen seawater. Whatever the events that >> lead to the circumstance he was in, it seemed he gave it a good try >> after the roll. >> Might be the same Glenn Ey, from Brisbane: >> http://cav36.com/Registration.html >> Details on the Cavalier 36: >> http://bluewaterboats.org/cavalier-36/ >> Matt >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: opusnz@... >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:57:32 +1300 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! >> >> >> >> >> >> There is a strong current off Australia. I suspect it pushed him off >> much more than he thought. I don't see why he wouldn't have a working >> gps. Handheld with AA batteries is a no brainer. Maybe he didn't have >> the batteries in a sealed bag and they got wet? >> Paul >> On 19/10/2012 12:36 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: >>> Follow up story with a telephone interview with the skipper. >>> http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/sailor_grateful_to_air_canada_crew_that_aided_in_rescue/e1b7f953 >>> He was near the coast, and was hit by a storm. >>> Went more out to sea to get better conditions. >>> Conditions worsened. >>> He was rolled and dismasted 9 days ago. >>> After the storm abated, it took him 2 days to put the boat in order. >>> He believed he was possibly 120 miles from shore. >>> He sailed under jury rig for some days. >>> He did not know his position. >>> After 9 days, he could not see the 'loom' of Sydney, glow in the distance at night I would guess. >>> He set of his eprib. >>> He was actually about 500km from Sydney, and, if I know my winds, about down-wind of Sydney >>> Given that he did not know his position, one would have to guess his primary navigation system and radio was damaged in the roll-over, his handheld GPS was damaged, and his sextant was damaged, or possibly as a coastal sailor, he had no sextant. If he had known his position, at least he would have known he was not making headway toward land I guess, or, he might have steered for a downwind location. It is likely if he was a coastal sailor he did not carry provisions for that, or, the provisions were damaged also. >>> He was in the position he was in. We can only take lessons from it. >>> Matt >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: m_j_malone@... >>> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:32:07 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I read that story earlier in the day. It is only fitting, the Australians have been the ones to come to everyone else's aid in the Southern Ocean. >>> The story was not completely clear but it sounds like he had been dismasted a while ago and was trying some self recovery for some time before requesting help. One never knows the details of each situation. I can barely go an entire weekend working on the boat without realizing I do not have something I need and having to go to the store. Still, putting some thought to jury rigging before it is necessary could not hurt. I have tried to raise a 20 foot mast on a dingy on a lake and had 40 times the trouble as on dry land (40 minutes vs one minute). I have also tried raising timbers for various reasons and over 12 feet it becomes far more interesting. Then again, perhaps he lost all his sails along with their furlers. It would be tough leaving a boat that is not sinking, but you have no way to control. >>> Kim if there is a local story with more details, I would be interested in reading it. >>> Matt >>> Mark Hamill wrote: >>> How much you want to bet that Air Canada lost the guys luggage even though they never made physical contact. :) >>> And it must have killed them to actually HELP someone. >>> Can you tell I've been the victim of one too many Air Canada strikes? >>> If he had had my mast it would never have broken--I'm expecting they will find that thing in my burial site a million years from now. Markh >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> ------------------------------------ >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> ------------------------------------ >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 29131|29121|2012-10-18 16:32:26|Matt Malone|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|I was going to ask about the donuts, but now I see what they are: You have to like the "persistent eddies". I know there are large-scale gyres in many places, but these seem quite localized. If they are anything like the gulf stream south of Nova Scotia with all its knots and swirls: http://rads.tudelft.nl/gulfstream/gif/anim_2_year.gif Then, thought they may be persistent, they may not be stationary, instead wandering back and forth over hundreds of miles. That would make navigation from Aus to NZ interesting. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 09:17:26 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! Good question....orange is surface, blue is subsurface. http://www.solartran.com.au/tullywater_files/image002.jpg Paul On 19/10/2012 9:03 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > That graphic was very interesting. The orange and blue is that summer and winter ? > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 08:52:01 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cavalier 36's are good boats but it is a poor time of year to cross the > > Tasman. It is too early. I live on the Tasman Sea and we have had > > storm after storm lately. We are still in a winter weather pattern of > > low after low. The fact that he was hit by the storm after only a few > > days after departure makes me think he hadn't looked at the weather > > properly before he left. The large storms don't suddenly come out of > > nowhere. > > > > Anyway, in my opinion the only type of people who go across the Tasman > > Sea in winter are either ignorant amateurs or professionals who really > > know what they are doing. My friend is the latter yet even then, he was > > still rolled over on one trip. I have just enough experience to know > > that I would never try it. When I first started going offshore, I just > > looked up at the sky and left. I paid the price a few times too so I > > try to be smarter about it now.. > > > > I did sail to Aus once in late November on a friends boat....we had a > > current of close to a knot against us for many days, even though we were > > in the middle of the Tasman. Closer to the Aus coast the current can be > > much more than that....2 to 3 knots is not uncommon. > > > > http://www.oceanclimatechange.org.au/content/images/uploads/east_australian_current_fig2.jpg > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > On 19/10/2012 7:34 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > >> There is a little more detail here. >> http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3613780.htm >> That sounds like a really fast roll. It is a good thing he was not seriously >> injured, or on deck untethered. >> "The boat was swamped and cracked. Its mast split in pieces. But >> mistakenly thinking he was closer to land than he was, Glenn Ey >> patched >> up his boat and headed back for Sydney. " >> "And after seven days I still couldn't see the loom, after eight >> days I >> couldn't see the loom. I thought no, I'm stuck in some >> current here, I >> don't really know where I am. And on the ninth >> morning, I decided to set >> the EPIRB (Emergency >> Position-Indicating Radio Beacon) off. " >> His handheld GPS may have seen seawater. Whatever the events that >> lead to the circumstance he was in, it seemed he gave it a good try >> after the roll. >> Might be the same Glenn Ey, from Brisbane: >> http://cav36.com/Registration.html >> Details on the Cavalier 36: >> http://bluewaterboats.org/cavalier-36/ >> Matt >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: opusnz@... >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:57:32 +1300 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! >> >> >> >> >> >> There is a strong current off Australia. I suspect it pushed him off >> much more than he thought. I don't see why he wouldn't have a working >> gps. Handheld with AA batteries is a no brainer. Maybe he didn't have >> the batteries in a sealed bag and they got wet? >> Paul >> On 19/10/2012 12:36 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: >>> Follow up story with a telephone interview with the skipper. >>> http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/sailor_grateful_to_air_canada_crew_that_aided_in_rescue/e1b7f953 >>> He was near the coast, and was hit by a storm. >>> Went more out to sea to get better conditions. >>> Conditions worsened. >>> He was rolled and dismasted 9 days ago. >>> After the storm abated, it took him 2 days to put the boat in order. >>> He believed he was possibly 120 miles from shore. >>> He sailed under jury rig for some days. >>> He did not know his position. >>> After 9 days, he could not see the 'loom' of Sydney, glow in the distance at night I would guess. >>> He set of his eprib. >>> He was actually about 500km from Sydney, and, if I know my winds, about down-wind of Sydney >>> Given that he did not know his position, one would have to guess his primary navigation system and radio was damaged in the roll-over, his handheld GPS was damaged, and his sextant was damaged, or possibly as a coastal sailor, he had no sextant. If he had known his position, at least he would have known he was not making headway toward land I guess, or, he might have steered for a downwind location. It is likely if he was a coastal sailor he did not carry provisions for that, or, the provisions were damaged also. >>> He was in the position he was in. We can only take lessons from it. >>> Matt >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: m_j_malone@... >>> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:32:07 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I read that story earlier in the day. It is only fitting, the Australians have been the ones to come to everyone else's aid in the Southern Ocean. >>> The story was not completely clear but it sounds like he had been dismasted a while ago and was trying some self recovery for some time before requesting help. One never knows the details of each situation. I can barely go an entire weekend working on the boat without realizing I do not have something I need and having to go to the store. Still, putting some thought to jury rigging before it is necessary could not hurt. I have tried to raise a 20 foot mast on a dingy on a lake and had 40 times the trouble as on dry land (40 minutes vs one minute). I have also tried raising timbers for various reasons and over 12 feet it becomes far more interesting. Then again, perhaps he lost all his sails along with their furlers. It would be tough leaving a boat that is not sinking, but you have no way to control. >>> Kim if there is a local story with more details, I would be interested in reading it. >>> Matt >>> Mark Hamill wrote: >>> How much you want to bet that Air Canada lost the guys luggage even though they never made physical contact. :) >>> And it must have killed them to actually HELP someone. >>> Can you tell I've been the victim of one too many Air Canada strikes? >>> If he had had my mast it would never have broken--I'm expecting they will find that thing in my burial site a million years from now. Markh >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> ------------------------------------ >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> ------------------------------------ >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29132|29121|2012-10-18 17:06:23|Paul Wilson|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|Here is the story of my friend Lindsay Wright's Tasman delivery trip in a Yamaha 33 where he got rolled over. Good read. http://www.seabreeze.com.au/News/Sailing/Trial-by-Tasman-a-delivery-tale_1943824.aspx Lindsay has now been rolled over, sunk by a whale, shipwrecked several times, rounded cape horn several times, and sailed to 80 north. I always think twice when he asks me to come sailing with him :). There is an old radio interview with him here: http://insearchofsimplicity.com/2009/04/14/lindsay-wright-ocean-sailor/ His story of the yacht Askoy is quite good. http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Article/Brels-dream-lives-again-Askoy-salvage/556.aspx?Ne=145&N=4294967258 A collection of his stories here: http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Water-ebook/dp/B004G0949S Cheers, Paul On 19/10/2012 9:17 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > Good question....orange is surface, blue is subsurface. > > http://www.solartran.com.au/tullywater_files/image002.jpg > > Paul > > On 19/10/2012 9:03 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > That graphic was very interesting. The orange and blue is that > summer and winter ? > > > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: opusnz@... > > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 08:52:01 +1300 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cavalier 36's are good boats but it is a poor time of year to cross the > > > > Tasman. It is too early. I live on the Tasman Sea and we have had > > > > storm after storm lately. We are still in a winter weather pattern of > > > > low after low. The fact that he was hit by the storm after only a few > > > > days after departure makes me think he hadn't looked at the weather > > > > properly before he left. The large storms don't suddenly come out of > > > > nowhere. > > > > > > > > Anyway, in my opinion the only type of people who go across the Tasman > > > > Sea in winter are either ignorant amateurs or professionals who really > > > > know what they are doing. My friend is the latter yet even then, he was > > > > still rolled over on one trip. I have just enough experience to know > > > > that I would never try it. When I first started going offshore, I just > > > > looked up at the sky and left. I paid the price a few times too so I > > > > try to be smarter about it now.. > > > > > > > > I did sail to Aus once in late November on a friends boat....we had a > > > > current of close to a knot against us for many days, even though we were > > > > in the middle of the Tasman. Closer to the Aus coast the current can be > > > > much more than that....2 to 3 knots is not uncommon. > > > > > > > > > http://www.oceanclimatechange.org.au/content/images/uploads/east_australian_current_fig2.jpg > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > On 19/10/2012 7:34 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > >> There is a little more detail here. > >> http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3613780.htm > >> That sounds like a really fast roll. It is a good thing he was not > seriously > >> injured, or on deck untethered. > >> "The boat was swamped and cracked. Its mast split in pieces. But > >> mistakenly thinking he was closer to land than he was, Glenn Ey > >> patched > >> up his boat and headed back for Sydney. " > >> "And after seven days I still couldn't see the loom, after eight > >> days I > >> couldn't see the loom. I thought no, I'm stuck in some > >> current here, I > >> don't really know where I am. And on the ninth > >> morning, I decided to set > >> the EPIRB (Emergency > >> Position-Indicating Radio Beacon) off. " > >> His handheld GPS may have seen seawater. Whatever the events that > >> lead to the circumstance he was in, it seemed he gave it a good try > >> after the roll. > >> Might be the same Glenn Ey, from Brisbane: > >> http://cav36.com/Registration.html > >> Details on the Cavalier 36: > >> http://bluewaterboats.org/cavalier-36/ > >> Matt > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> From: opusnz@... > >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:57:32 +1300 > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> There is a strong current off Australia. I suspect it pushed him off > >> much more than he thought. I don't see why he wouldn't have a working > >> gps. Handheld with AA batteries is a no brainer. Maybe he didn't have > >> the batteries in a sealed bag and they got wet? > >> Paul > >> On 19/10/2012 12:36 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > >>> Follow up story with a telephone interview with the skipper. > >>> > http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/sailor_grateful_to_air_canada_crew_that_aided_in_rescue/e1b7f953 > >>> He was near the coast, and was hit by a storm. > >>> Went more out to sea to get better conditions. > >>> Conditions worsened. > >>> He was rolled and dismasted 9 days ago. > >>> After the storm abated, it took him 2 days to put the boat in order. > >>> He believed he was possibly 120 miles from shore. > >>> He sailed under jury rig for some days. > >>> He did not know his position. > >>> After 9 days, he could not see the 'loom' of Sydney, glow in the > distance at night I would guess. > >>> He set of his eprib. > >>> He was actually about 500km from Sydney, and, if I know my winds, > about down-wind of Sydney > >>> Given that he did not know his position, one would have to guess > his primary navigation system and radio was damaged in the roll-over, > his handheld GPS was damaged, and his sextant was damaged, or possibly > as a coastal sailor, he had no sextant. If he had known his position, > at least he would have known he was not making headway toward land I > guess, or, he might have steered for a downwind location. It is likely > if he was a coastal sailor he did not carry provisions for that, or, > the provisions were damaged also. > >>> He was in the position he was in. We can only take lessons from it. > >>> Matt > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>> From: m_j_malone@... > >>> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:32:07 -0400 > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Canadians rescuing Australians! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I read that story earlier in the day. It is only fitting, the > Australians have been the ones to come to everyone else's aid in the > Southern Ocean. > >>> The story was not completely clear but it sounds like he had been > dismasted a while ago and was trying some self recovery for some time > before requesting help. One never knows the details of each situation. > I can barely go an entire weekend working on the boat without > realizing I do not have something I need and having to go to the > store. Still, putting some thought to jury rigging before it is > necessary could not hurt. I have tried to raise a 20 foot mast on a > dingy on a lake and had 40 times the trouble as on dry land (40 > minutes vs one minute). I have also tried raising timbers for various > reasons and over 12 feet it becomes far more interesting. Then again, > perhaps he lost all his sails along with their furlers. It would be > tough leaving a boat that is not sinking, but you have no way to control. > >>> Kim if there is a local story with more details, I would be > interested in reading it. > >>> Matt > >>> Mark Hamill > wrote: > >>> How much you want to bet that Air Canada lost the guys luggage > even though they never made physical contact. :) > >>> And it must have killed them to actually HELP someone. > >>> Can you tell I've been the victim of one too many Air Canada strikes? > >>> If he had had my mast it would never have broken--I'm expecting > they will find that thing in my burial site a million years from now. > Markh > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> ------------------------------------ > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > | 29133|29133|2012-10-21 12:31:24|James Pronk|New email|My email keeps getting high-jacked and spam is getting sent from that email so my new email will be: jamespronk@... Thank you all, James Pronk [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29134|29134|2012-10-21 18:37:02|wild_explorer|Integral tank|I asked Brent some questions over e-mail, but it could be interesting to everyone. So I will continue it here. Brent recommendations for integral water tank are: - before installation: sandblast, prime and epoxy "inside side" of tank-top and tank area with food-grade epoxy leaving 3" clearance along edges for welding. - pull tank-top inside of the hull through keel slot - after welding tank top to the hull: clean, prime and epoxy remaining uncovered area. Does anybody know what epoxy can be used for water tank? I mean epoxy in current production and certified for potable water tanks. Wasser does not have it.| 29135|29134|2012-10-21 18:45:47|Paul Wilson|Re: Integral tank|Try the Carboline (Altex) or PPG (Ameron) sites. They carry water tank approved epoxies. Paul On 22/10/2012 11:36 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > I asked Brent some questions over e-mail, but it could be interesting > to everyone. So I will continue it here. > > Brent recommendations for integral water tank are: > > - before installation: sandblast, prime and epoxy "inside side" of > tank-top and tank area with food-grade epoxy leaving 3" clearance > along edges for welding. > - pull tank-top inside of the hull through keel slot > - after welding tank top to the hull: clean, prime and epoxy remaining > uncovered area. > > Does anybody know what epoxy can be used for water tank? I mean epoxy > in current production and certified for potable water tanks. Wasser > does not have it. > > | 29136|29134|2012-10-22 06:05:33|southcoveemail|Re: Integral tank|Ameron 400 white is approved for potable water tank but double check with TDS and MSDS > > Does anybody know what epoxy can be used for water tank? I mean epoxy > > in current production and certified for potable water tanks. | 29137|29134|2012-10-22 07:34:04|southcoveemail|Re: Integral tank, drinking water|Just checked the TDS for Amerlock 2 (or 400) USDA - Incidental food contact 2 NSF Standard 61 - For use in drinking water. See current listing at www.nsf.org for restrictions and approved colors. 3 FDA 21 CFR 175.300 extraction test for direct food contact My dealer said white is approved for water tanks. I find it easy to use 1:1 mixing ratio and cheap at $70/g here in NS. Have you checked the cementitious coatings (see Colvin Vol. 2 p.136). Hope it helps. Cheers Thierry --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "southcoveemail" wrote: > > Ameron 400 white is approved for potable water tank but double check with TDS and MSDS > > > > > Does anybody know what epoxy can be used for water tank? I mean epoxy > > > in current production and certified for potable water tanks. > | 29138|29138|2012-10-22 11:51:24|MichaelF|Diesel fuel tank material|I'm getting ready to build new fuel tanks mine have rusted out. My boat is a 66 and they are original. Should I build em again in steel or aluminum? They are for diesel. I don't really want the expense of stainless. Thanks. Michael| 29139|29134|2012-10-22 11:52:13|chris123|Re: Integral tank, drinking water|Thiery Are you on the east coast NS as in Nova Scotia? If so what are the bone yards like as there is very little here in central ON for fitting out a vessel and its closer then the west coast which seems to have everything..:) best and kind regards /ch stuck in Ontario for a little while longer. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29140|29134|2012-10-22 14:38:31|Paul Wilson|Re: Integral tank, drinking water|Ameron 400 is very good paint. I have used it on my hull but I didn't know it was OK with water. I think I would favor a modern epoxy over a cement based paint. Paul On 23/10/2012 12:34 a.m., southcoveemail wrote: > > Just checked the TDS for Amerlock 2 (or 400) > > USDA - Incidental food contact > 2 NSF Standard 61 - For use in drinking water. See current listing at > www.nsf.org for restrictions and approved colors. > 3 FDA 21 CFR 175.300 extraction test for direct food contact > > My dealer said white is approved for water tanks. > > I find it easy to use 1:1 mixing ratio and cheap at $70/g here in NS. > > Have you checked the cementitious coatings (see Colvin Vol. 2 p.136). > > Hope it helps. > > Cheers > > Thierry > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "southcoveemail" > wrote: > > > > Ameron 400 white is approved for potable water tank but double check > with TDS and MSDS > > > > > > > > Does anybody know what epoxy can be used for water tank? I mean > epoxy > > > > in current production and certified for potable water tanks. > > > > | 29141|29134|2012-10-22 16:02:23|scott|Re: Integral tank|PPG has some great products and does have a certified water potable epoxy. i just got some paint for my topsides from them that is the bomb. its a new acrylic poly siloxane called psx 0ne. one part, self priming, 10 year high gloss and can be painted over itself with just cleaning the old pain surface. it feels like an old school oil enamel right out of the can. You can roll it, brush it or spray it. :) you can also recoat in about 2 hours.. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I asked Brent some questions over e-mail, but it could be interesting to everyone. So I will continue it here. > > Brent recommendations for integral water tank are: > > - before installation: sandblast, prime and epoxy "inside side" of tank-top and tank area with food-grade epoxy leaving 3" clearance along edges for welding. > - pull tank-top inside of the hull through keel slot > - after welding tank top to the hull: clean, prime and epoxy remaining uncovered area. > > Does anybody know what epoxy can be used for water tank? I mean epoxy in current production and certified for potable water tanks. Wasser does not have it. > | 29142|29138|2012-10-22 16:20:12|brentswain38|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Are they integral, using part of the steel hull for sides and bottom? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "MichaelF" wrote: > > I'm getting ready to build new fuel tanks mine have rusted out. My boat is a 66 and they are original. Should I build em again in steel or aluminum? They are for diesel. I don't really want the expense of stainless. Thanks. Michael > | 29143|29134|2012-10-22 17:27:11|Paul Wilson|PPG PSX paint|Scott, I assume the PSX One is very new? What is the full model number of the PSX one that you used? There is very little info on the PSX One and it appears I can only get the 700 and 1015 and 1025 series in NZ. They are all two pack. On the USA site, the solids content is different between the 1001 and the PSX One but other than that they look very similar. I wonder if the One version is an update on the 1001. I need to paint my cockpit and it looks like it would be good stuff. http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/psx/ http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/PSX-One-PDS_AI.pdf Thanks, Paul On 23/10/2012 9:02 a.m., scott wrote: > > > PPG has some great products and does have a certified water potable epoxy. > > i just got some paint for my topsides from them that is the bomb. > its a new acrylic poly siloxane called psx 0ne. > one part, self priming, 10 year high gloss and can be painted over > itself with just cleaning the old pain surface. it feels like an old > school oil enamel right out of the can. You can roll it, brush it or > spray it. :) you can also recoat in about 2 hours.. > scott > | 29144|29138|2012-10-22 18:35:24|Mike|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|No, luckily these are separate or I imagine I'd be having bigger Issues. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2012, at 3:20 PM, "brentswain38" wrote: > | 29145|29138|2012-10-22 20:11:26|wild_explorer|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Diesel tank's materials: - Aluminum B 209, Alloy 5086 - Nickel-copper B 127, Hot rolled sheet or plate - Steel or iron As I remember, stainless steel is NOT recommended for diesel tank. I do not remember the reason now (see file about diesel in group's file section). There are some problems with aluminum tanks as well (may be just built from wrong alloy???). USCG requirement for diesel fuel tanks: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title46-vol2/pdf/CFR-2010-title46-vol2-sec58-50-10.pdf --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "MichaelF" wrote: > > I'm getting ready to build new fuel tanks mine have rusted out. My boat is a 66 and they are original. Should I build em again in steel or aluminum? They are for diesel. I don't really want the expense of stainless. Thanks. Michael > | 29146|29134|2012-10-22 20:38:29|wild_explorer|Re: Integral tank|1. Sigmaguard csf 585 - blue gloss color. MSDS says it is approved for drinking water. http://www.sigmapaints.com/Technical_Info/Deco/datasheets/7785SigmaguardCSF585.pdf 2. Amercoat 240 - white color. Some tables recommend it for potable water, but no word in MSDS about it. http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/alliances/diamondOffShore/AmeronProductreferenceinformation.pdf http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/240_PDS_AI.pdf 3. Amerlock 400 is for big water tanks??? http://www.diamondvogel.com/prod_data/400_PDS_AI.pdf --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Try the Carboline (Altex) or PPG (Ameron) sites. They carry water tank > approved epoxies. > > Paul > On 22/10/2012 11:36 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > I asked Brent some questions over e-mail, but it could be interesting > > to everyone. So I will continue it here. > > > > Brent recommendations for integral water tank are: > > > > - before installation: sandblast, prime and epoxy "inside side" of > > tank-top and tank area with food-grade epoxy leaving 3" clearance > > along edges for welding. > > - pull tank-top inside of the hull through keel slot > > - after welding tank top to the hull: clean, prime and epoxy remaining > > uncovered area. > > > > Does anybody know what epoxy can be used for water tank? I mean epoxy > > in current production and certified for potable water tanks. Wasser > > does not have it. > > > > > | 29147|29134|2012-10-22 21:21:56|Paul Wilson|Re: Integral tank|Amerlock 400 (also known as Amerlock 2) is a great, all-round epoxy for use above or below waterline. It is very popular with shipping and offshore oil and gas structures. It is one to look at if you don't want to use coal-tar epoxy. Paul On 23/10/2012 1:38 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > 1. Sigmaguard csf 585 - blue gloss color. MSDS says it is approved for > drinking water. > > http://www.sigmapaints.com/Technical_Info/Deco/datasheets/7785SigmaguardCSF585.pdf > > 2. Amercoat 240 - white color. Some tables recommend it for potable > water, but no word in MSDS about it. > > http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/alliances/diamondOffShore/AmeronProductreferenceinformation.pdf > > http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/240_PDS_AI.pdf > > 3. Amerlock 400 is for big water tanks??? > > http://www.diamondvogel.com/prod_data/400_PDS_AI.pdf > | 29148|29138|2012-10-22 21:34:33|Mark Hamill|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|keep aluminum off vibration insulating materials like industrial belting and tires--the carbon reacts. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29149|29149|2012-10-22 21:53:54|Kim|Ballast: Keel weight -v- lead weight.|Hi Brent ... Very soon I'll be buying the lead ballast for my 26-footer; but I have a question about the amount of lead I have to buy: On my plans it says "Keel Wt. 1800lbs". That's the only mention of keel weight or ballast. I assume that means 900lbs keel weight for each of the twin keels. In an earlier message in this group someone said "My understanding is that in steel boats the keels count as ballast, too. Not just the lead." (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/13081). In one of your messages way back in 2001 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/messages/375) you tended to support that idea when you said that the 36-footer had " ... 5700 lbs keel weight, (4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel) ..." and the 31-footer had " ... 3500 lbs lead ballast, 4500 lbs total keel weight ...". I haven't actually weighed the twin keels that I built for my boat; but I estimate their total steel content would weigh about 440lbs (220lbs each) (http://smu.gs/PNngPH). Plus there's probably at least about another 66lb in internal keel reinforcing (http://smu.gs/PNngPH). So the question is: Do I buy 1800lbs of lead, or do I buy 1500lbs of lead (1800lbs - about 300lbs being the steel content of the keels)? Thanks Brent! Cheers ... Kim. _________________________________________| 29150|29138|2012-10-22 23:24:32|MICHAEL FELTON|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Thanks for the info, I looked in the file section I did not see the diesel file.  What kind of life expectancy should I expect from a steel tank? In your opinions What would you choose?  Thanks From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 7:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material   Diesel tank's materials: - Aluminum B 209, Alloy 5086 - Nickel-copper B 127, Hot rolled sheet or plate - Steel or iron As I remember, stainless steel is NOT recommended for diesel tank. I do not remember the reason now (see file about diesel in group's file section). There are some problems with aluminum tanks as well (may be just built from wrong alloy???). USCG requirement for diesel fuel tanks: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title46-vol2/pdf/CFR-2010-title46-vol2-sec58-50-10.pdf --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "MichaelF" wrote: > > I'm getting ready to build new fuel tanks mine have rusted out. My boat is a 66 and they are original. Should I build em again in steel or aluminum? They are for diesel. I don't really want the expense of stainless. Thanks. Michael > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29151|29138|2012-10-23 00:37:42|wild_explorer|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Hm-mmmm... I could not find it in file section as well... It was good discussion about diesel tank some time ago and someone uploaded very useful information about diesel fuel tank and its maintenance. May be somebody have it or know where to find it... I cannot give any advice what material to use... But usually all diesel fuel tanks on the ships (integral and day) are made from steel. I guess, that you need to choose most economical solution. Steel is cheap... Just need to paint diesel tank OUTSIDE with zinc primer and use inline filter. Do you need your diesel tank to last for more than 15-20 years? It are not integral... Right? Easy to replace... ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MICHAEL FELTON wrote: > > Thanks for the info, I looked in the file section I did not see the diesel file.  What kind of life expectancy should I expect from a steel tank? In your opinions What would you choose?  Thanks > | 29152|29138|2012-10-23 07:58:43|Mike|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|When you put it that way, your right I think I'm putting way too much thought into this. I like cheap. And steel is easy to work with. Thanks for looking for the diesel files section. Hopefully someone can find it. Michael Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:37 PM, "wild_explorer" wrote: > Hm-mmmm... I could not find it in file section as well... It was good discussion about diesel tank some time ago and someone uploaded very useful information about diesel fuel tank and its maintenance. May be somebody have it or know where to find it... > > I cannot give any advice what material to use... But usually all diesel fuel tanks on the ships (integral and day) are made from steel. I guess, that you need to choose most economical solution. > > Steel is cheap... Just need to paint diesel tank OUTSIDE with zinc primer and use inline filter. > > Do you need your diesel tank to last for more than 15-20 years? It are not integral... Right? Easy to replace... ;) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MICHAEL FELTON wrote: > > > > Thanks for the info, I looked in the file section I did not see the diesel file. What kind of life expectancy should I expect from a steel tank? In your opinions What would you choose? Thanks > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29153|29138|2012-10-23 13:27:45|martin demers|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|what insulation material can you use instead, if you have aluminium tanks? wood? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:34:30 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material keep aluminum off vibration insulating materials like industrial belting and tires--the carbon reacts. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29154|29138|2012-10-23 14:39:38|Paul Thompson|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|My diesel tanks are made from plywood, epoxy coated and sheathed with a layer of glass. They are light, stiff and reasonably cheap and easy to make. There is little or no condensation and the tanks have lasted 23 years now. I can unhesitatingly recommend this method of building tanks. Paul Thompson On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:27 AM, martin demers wrote: > what insulation material can you use instead, if you have aluminium tanks? > wood? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:34:30 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > keep aluminum off vibration insulating materials like industrial belting and tires--the carbon reacts. MarkH > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29155|29138|2012-10-23 14:44:51|martin demers|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|is the layer of glass inside? how do you spread it? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pault@... Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 07:39:37 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material My diesel tanks are made from plywood, epoxy coated and sheathed with a layer of glass. They are light, stiff and reasonably cheap and easy to make. There is little or no condensation and the tanks have lasted 23 years now. I can unhesitatingly recommend this method of building tanks. Paul Thompson On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:27 AM, martin demers wrote: > what insulation material can you use instead, if you have aluminium tanks? > wood? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mhamill1@... > Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:34:30 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > keep aluminum off vibration insulating materials like industrial belting and tires--the carbon reacts. MarkH > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29156|29138|2012-10-23 15:25:55|brentswain38|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|I once saw the taboo against stainless diesel tanks mentioned in Pathetic Yachting Magazine. Then a metalurgist from one of the pulp mills wrote in, saying that they often use stainless for diesel tanks, no problem. I believe that myth was spread by the "Be reasonable and do it the hard way" crowd. If it looks easy, practical and obvious, then there "MUST" be something wrong with it. I have been using a stainless gravity feed day tank for 28 years now. I had magnetic,type 400 stainless for the ends and had some corrision near the bottom, where water sometimes sits. I replaced the bottom ends with type 316. The rest, type 316 , was in perfect condition.I can highly recommend type 316 for diesel tanks. For steel tanks, some say the diesel will protect it, and it doesnt need to be painted. Bullshit! Perhaps following such disinformation was the reason yours rusted out. Diesel doesn't protect the top, where condensation forms, nor the bottom, where water sometimes sits. Epoxy tar has worked well for my boats, on diesel tanks --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Diesel tank's materials: > > - Aluminum B 209, Alloy 5086 > - Nickel-copper B 127, Hot rolled sheet or plate > - Steel or iron > > As I remember, stainless steel is NOT recommended for diesel tank. I do not remember the reason now (see file about diesel in group's file section). > There are some problems with aluminum tanks as well (may be just built from wrong alloy???). > > USCG requirement for diesel fuel tanks: > > http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title46-vol2/pdf/CFR-2010-title46-vol2-sec58-50-10.pdf > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "MichaelF" wrote: > > > > I'm getting ready to build new fuel tanks mine have rusted out. My boat is a 66 and they are original. Should I build em again in steel or aluminum? They are for diesel. I don't really want the expense of stainless. Thanks. Michael > > > | 29157|29149|2012-10-23 15:28:02|brentswain38|Re: Ballast: Keel weight -v- lead weight.|You will need a total of 1500 lbs of lead, 750lbs per keel. The rest is the steel weight. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Brent ... > > Very soon I'll be buying the lead ballast for my 26-footer; but I have a question about the amount of lead I have to buy: > > On my plans it says "Keel Wt. 1800lbs". That's the only mention of keel weight or ballast. I assume that means 900lbs keel weight for each of the twin keels. > > In an earlier message in this group someone said "My understanding is that in steel boats the keels count as ballast, too. Not just the lead." (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/13081). In one of your messages way back in 2001 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/messages/375) you tended to support that idea when you said that the 36-footer had " ... 5700 lbs keel weight, (4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel) ..." and the 31-footer had " ... 3500 lbs lead ballast, 4500 lbs total keel weight ...". > > I haven't actually weighed the twin keels that I built for my boat; but I estimate their total steel content would weigh about 440lbs (220lbs each) (http://smu.gs/PNngPH). Plus there's probably at least about another 66lb in internal keel reinforcing (http://smu.gs/PNngPH). > > So the question is: Do I buy 1800lbs of lead, or do I buy 1500lbs of lead (1800lbs - about 300lbs being the steel content of the keels)? > > Thanks Brent! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > _________________________________________ > | 29158|29138|2012-10-23 15:31:29|brentswain38|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|I once tried making a diesel tank out of plywood with one layer of roving and one of matt, being very careful to roll all the bubbles out . Leaked like a sieve. Epoxy may have been better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > My diesel tanks are made from plywood, epoxy coated and sheathed with > a layer of glass. They are light, stiff and reasonably cheap and easy > to make. There is little or no condensation and the tanks have lasted > 23 years now. > > I can unhesitatingly recommend this method of building tanks. > > Paul Thompson > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:27 AM, martin demers wrote: > > what insulation material can you use instead, if you have aluminium tanks? > > wood? > > > > Martin > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mhamill1@... > > Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:34:30 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > keep aluminum off vibration insulating materials like industrial belting and tires--the carbon reacts. MarkH > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 29159|29138|2012-10-23 15:55:10|Mark Hamill|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Matt: Wood/Epoxy Composite tank construction guidelines from West. http://www.westsystem.com/ss/wood-epoxy-composite-tank-guidelines/ MarkH| 29160|29138|2012-10-23 16:02:11|Paul Wilson|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|I have had zero problems with my SS day tank as well after 20 years. If they are drop in tanks, I would try to get a small drain sump on the bottom for easy removal of water. No matter what the material of tank, I would make sure I had a large enough access hatch that I could get in with my hand to wipe the tank down. You shouldn't (in theory) need to do this, but if you ever get some bad diesel or diesel bug, you might. I agree about painting the inside of mild steel tanks. I painted mine with epoxy and it still looks like new inside. Having anything last 20 or 30 years on a boat sounds like a long time but time flies when you are having fun. Paul On 24/10/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > I once saw the taboo against stainless diesel tanks mentioned in > Pathetic Yachting Magazine. Then a metalurgist from one of the pulp > mills wrote in, saying that they often use stainless for diesel tanks, > no problem. I believe that myth was spread by the "Be reasonable and > do it the hard way" crowd. If it looks easy, practical and obvious, > then there "MUST" be something wrong with it. > I have been using a stainless gravity feed day tank for 28 years now. > I had magnetic,type 400 stainless for the ends and had some corrision > near the bottom, where water sometimes sits. I replaced the bottom > ends with type 316. The rest, type 316 , was in perfect condition.I > can highly recommend type 316 for diesel tanks. > For steel tanks, some say the diesel will protect it, and it doesnt > need to be painted. Bullshit! Perhaps following such disinformation > was the reason yours rusted out. Diesel doesn't protect the top, where > condensation forms, nor the bottom, where water sometimes sits. > Epoxy tar has worked well for my boats, on diesel tanks > | 29161|29134|2012-10-23 16:54:04|scott|Re: PPG PSX paint|PSX One isnt fully represented on the website. according to the the reps I spoke with it performance wise is just under that on the PSX 700 and above all the other varieties of PSX... It has only been available about 9 months according to my sales rep. I purchase it through the local Porter Paints store here. They are a subsidiary of PPG I guess. It's a special order and has a limited shelf life is my understanding. I really want to get up with PPG's tech support dept on it as it has some weird timming issues for recoat that I don't totally understand. Supposedly you can recoat after it tacks up for up to 9 hours? and then have to wait till after 31 days for any new coats after that. But I have seen other documentation that seems to contradict that so it has left me wondering. According to sales rep it has some sort of crosslinking chemistry that happens after so much time and you need to not top coat it till that finishes happening. But it doesn't start for 9 hours or several days according to the different stuff I have found online. here is the documentation I have found so far http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/PSX-One-PDS_AI.pdf http://www.ppg.com/en/newsroom/news/Pages/20111129P.aspx http://www.professionalmariner.com/Web-Exclusive-2012/USS-Iowa-repainted-with-PSX-ONE-coating-by-PPG/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Scott, > > I assume the PSX One is very new? What is the full model number of the > PSX one that you used? There is very little info on the PSX One and it > appears I can only get the 700 and 1015 and 1025 series in NZ. They are > all two pack. On the USA site, the solids content is different between > the 1001 and the PSX One but other than that they look very similar. I > wonder if the One version is an update on the 1001. I need to paint my > cockpit and it looks like it would be good stuff. > > http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/psx/ > > http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/PSX-One-PDS_AI.pdf > > Thanks, Paul > > On 23/10/2012 9:02 a.m., scott wrote: > > > > > > PPG has some great products and does have a certified water potable epoxy. > > > > i just got some paint for my topsides from them that is the bomb. > > its a new acrylic poly siloxane called psx 0ne. > > one part, self priming, 10 year high gloss and can be painted over > > itself with just cleaning the old pain surface. it feels like an old > > school oil enamel right out of the can. You can roll it, brush it or > > spray it. :) you can also recoat in about 2 hours.. > > scott > > > | 29162|29134|2012-10-23 17:20:58|Paul Wilson|Re: PPG PSX paint|Thanks Scott. I can get the 700 here in a semi-gloss so maybe I will use that one even though it is two part. Either that or I will stick to the Porch and Floor I have been using. I don't like the idea of paints with a limited shelf life.....I have thrown out too much paint over the years.... Paul On 24/10/2012 9:54 a.m., scott wrote: > > PSX One isnt fully represented on the website. > > according to the the reps I spoke with it performance wise is just > under that on the PSX 700 and above all the other varieties of PSX... > > It has only been available about 9 months according to my sales rep. > I purchase it through the local Porter Paints store here. They are a > subsidiary of PPG I guess. It's a special order and has a limited > shelf life is my understanding. I really want to get up with PPG's > tech support dept on it as it has some weird timming issues for recoat > that I don't totally understand. Supposedly you can recoat after it > tacks up for up to 9 hours? and then have to wait till after 31 days > for any new coats after that. But I have seen other documentation that > seems to contradict that so it has left me wondering. According to > sales rep it has some sort of crosslinking chemistry that happens > after so much time and you need to not top coat it till that finishes > happening. But it doesn't start for 9 hours or several days according > to the different stuff I have found online. > here is the documentation I have found so far > http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/PSX-One-PDS_AI.pdf > > http://www.ppg.com/en/newsroom/news/Pages/20111129P.aspx > > http://www.professionalmariner.com/Web-Exclusive-2012/USS-Iowa-repainted-with-PSX-ONE-coating-by-PPG/ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > | 29163|29134|2012-10-23 18:47:59|Paul Thompson|Re: PPG PSX paint|Hi Paul, Which Porch & Floor have you been using? Paul Thompson On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > Thanks Scott. I can get the 700 here in a semi-gloss so maybe I will > use that one even though it is two part. Either that or I will stick to > the Porch and Floor I have been using. I don't like the idea of paints > with a limited shelf life.....I have thrown out too much paint over the > years.... Paul > > On 24/10/2012 9:54 a.m., scott wrote: >> >> PSX One isnt fully represented on the website. >> >> according to the the reps I spoke with it performance wise is just >> under that on the PSX 700 and above all the other varieties of PSX... >> >> It has only been available about 9 months according to my sales rep. >> I purchase it through the local Porter Paints store here. They are a >> subsidiary of PPG I guess. It's a special order and has a limited >> shelf life is my understanding. I really want to get up with PPG's >> tech support dept on it as it has some weird timming issues for recoat >> that I don't totally understand. Supposedly you can recoat after it >> tacks up for up to 9 hours? and then have to wait till after 31 days >> for any new coats after that. But I have seen other documentation that >> seems to contradict that so it has left me wondering. According to >> sales rep it has some sort of crosslinking chemistry that happens >> after so much time and you need to not top coat it till that finishes >> happening. But it doesn't start for 9 hours or several days according >> to the different stuff I have found online. >> here is the documentation I have found so far >> http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/PSX-One-PDS_AI.pdf >> >> http://www.ppg.com/en/newsroom/news/Pages/20111129P.aspx >> >> http://www.professionalmariner.com/Web-Exclusive-2012/USS-Iowa-repainted-with-PSX-ONE-coating-by-PPG/ >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> , Paul Wilson wrote: >> >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29164|29138|2012-10-23 18:50:03|Paul Thompson|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Martin, look here http://www.westsystem.com/ss/wood-epoxy-composite-tank-guidelines/ the tank building methods are fully described. Paul Thompson On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 7:44 AM, martin demers wrote: > is the layer of glass inside? > how do you spread it? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: pault@... > Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 07:39:37 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My diesel tanks are made from plywood, epoxy coated and sheathed with > > a layer of glass. They are light, stiff and reasonably cheap and easy > > to make. There is little or no condensation and the tanks have lasted > > 23 years now. > > > > I can unhesitatingly recommend this method of building tanks. > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:27 AM, martin demers wrote: > >> what insulation material can you use instead, if you have aluminium tanks? > >> wood? > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> From: mhamill1@... > >> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:34:30 -0700 > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> keep aluminum off vibration insulating materials like industrial belting and tires--the carbon reacts. MarkH > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29165|29138|2012-10-23 18:55:28|martin demers|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|ok To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pault@... Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 11:50:01 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material Martin, look here http://www.westsystem.com/ss/wood-epoxy-composite-tank-guidelines/ the tank building methods are fully described. Paul Thompson On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 7:44 AM, martin demers wrote: > is the layer of glass inside? > how do you spread it? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: pault@... > Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 07:39:37 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My diesel tanks are made from plywood, epoxy coated and sheathed with > > a layer of glass. They are light, stiff and reasonably cheap and easy > > to make. There is little or no condensation and the tanks have lasted > > 23 years now. > > > > I can unhesitatingly recommend this method of building tanks. > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:27 AM, martin demers wrote: > >> what insulation material can you use instead, if you have aluminium tanks? > >> wood? > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> From: mhamill1@... > >> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:34:30 -0700 > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> keep aluminum off vibration insulating materials like industrial belting and tires--the carbon reacts. MarkH > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29166|29138|2012-10-23 19:24:45|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|For what it's worth; my daytank is a beer keg. It is lying on its side, mounted about 4 ft above the engine for gravity feed. 2 compression fittings carry 2 3/8" SS tubes in thru the neck. One delivers fuel into the day tank from the main tanks and the other gravity-feeds to the injection pump. Gives me 58 L w/o pumping from the belly tanks Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-23, at 1:02 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > I have had zero problems with my SS day tank as well after 20 years. > If they are drop in tanks, I would try to get a small drain sump on the > bottom for easy removal of water. No matter what the material of tank, > I would make sure I had a large enough access hatch that I could get in > with my hand to wipe the tank down. You shouldn't (in theory) need to > do this, but if you ever get some bad diesel or diesel bug, you might. > > I agree about painting the inside of mild steel tanks. I painted mine > with epoxy and it still looks like new inside. Having anything last 20 > or 30 years on a boat sounds like a long time but time flies when you > are having fun. > > Paul > > On 24/10/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > I once saw the taboo against stainless diesel tanks mentioned in > > Pathetic Yachting Magazine. Then a metalurgist from one of the pulp > > mills wrote in, saying that they often use stainless for diesel tanks, > > no problem. I believe that myth was spread by the "Be reasonable and > > do it the hard way" crowd. If it looks easy, practical and obvious, > > then there "MUST" be something wrong with it. > > I have been using a stainless gravity feed day tank for 28 years now. > > I had magnetic,type 400 stainless for the ends and had some corrision > > near the bottom, where water sometimes sits. I replaced the bottom > > ends with type 316. The rest, type 316 , was in perfect condition.I > > can highly recommend type 316 for diesel tanks. > > For steel tanks, some say the diesel will protect it, and it doesnt > > need to be painted. Bullshit! Perhaps following such disinformation > > was the reason yours rusted out. Diesel doesn't protect the top, where > > condensation forms, nor the bottom, where water sometimes sits. > > Epoxy tar has worked well for my boats, on diesel tanks > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29167|29134|2012-10-23 20:03:56|Paul Wilson|Re: PPG PSX paint|I have been using the oil based High Gloss Benjamin Moore Porch and Floor Enamel but it is getting hard to get. The nanny state in NZ thinks a high gloss floor paint is too slippery but I digress. Most of the Porch and Floor enamels seem to bell water based semi-gloss now. I was told they use the Ben Moore the dairies in Taranaki and pressure wash it every day and it holds up. I have had it only on the boat for a year but it seems pretty good. Cheers, Paul On 24/10/2012 11:47 a.m., Paul Thompson wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > Which Porch & Floor have you been using? > > Paul Thompson > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > Thanks Scott. I can get the 700 here in a semi-gloss so maybe I will > > use that one even though it is two part. Either that or I will stick to > > the Porch and Floor I have been using. I don't like the idea of paints > > with a limited shelf life.....I have thrown out too much paint over the > > years.... Paul > > > > On 24/10/2012 9:54 a.m., scott wrote: > >> > >> PSX One isnt fully represented on the website. > >> > >> according to the the reps I spoke with it performance wise is just > >> under that on the PSX 700 and above all the other varieties of PSX... > >> > >> It has only been available about 9 months according to my sales rep. > >> I purchase it through the local Porter Paints store here. They are a > >> subsidiary of PPG I guess. It's a special order and has a limited > >> shelf life is my understanding. I really want to get up with PPG's > >> tech support dept on it as it has some weird timming issues for recoat > >> that I don't totally understand. Supposedly you can recoat after it > >> tacks up for up to 9 hours? and then have to wait till after 31 days > >> for any new coats after that. But I have seen other documentation that > >> seems to contradict that so it has left me wondering. According to > >> sales rep it has some sort of crosslinking chemistry that happens > >> after so much time and you need to not top coat it till that finishes > >> happening. But it doesn't start for 9 hours or several days according > >> to the different stuff I have found online. > >> here is the documentation I have found so far > >> http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/PSX-One-PDS_AI.pdf > >> > >> http://www.ppg.com/en/newsroom/news/Pages/20111129P.aspx > >> > >> > http://www.professionalmariner.com/Web-Exclusive-2012/USS-Iowa-repainted-with-PSX-ONE-coating-by-PPG/ > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> , Paul Wilson > wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > | 29168|29138|2012-10-23 20:42:12|MICHAEL FELTON|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Im curious why you use a day tank, I've not heard of that before.  Thanks  From: GORDON SCHNELL To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material   For what it's worth; my daytank is a beer keg. It is lying on its side, mounted about 4 ft above the engine for gravity feed. 2 compression fittings carry 2 3/8" SS tubes in thru the neck. One delivers fuel into the day tank from the main tanks and the other gravity-feeds to the injection pump. Gives me 58 L w/o pumping from the belly tanks Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-23, at 1:02 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > I have had zero problems with my SS day tank as well after 20 years. > If they are drop in tanks, I would try to get a small drain sump on the > bottom for easy removal of water. No matter what the material of tank, > I would make sure I had a large enough access hatch that I could get in > with my hand to wipe the tank down. You shouldn't (in theory) need to > do this, but if you ever get some bad diesel or diesel bug, you might. > > I agree about painting the inside of mild steel tanks. I painted mine > with epoxy and it still looks like new inside. Having anything last 20 > or 30 years on a boat sounds like a long time but time flies when you > are having fun. > > Paul > > On 24/10/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > I once saw the taboo against stainless diesel tanks mentioned in > > Pathetic Yachting Magazine. Then a metalurgist from one of the pulp > > mills wrote in, saying that they often use stainless for diesel tanks, > > no problem. I believe that myth was spread by the "Be reasonable and > > do it the hard way" crowd. If it looks easy, practical and obvious, > > then there "MUST" be something wrong with it. > > I have been using a stainless gravity feed day tank for 28 years now. > > I had magnetic,type 400 stainless for the ends and had some corrision > > near the bottom, where water sometimes sits. I replaced the bottom > > ends with type 316. The rest, type 316 , was in perfect condition.I > > can highly recommend type 316 for diesel tanks. > > For steel tanks, some say the diesel will protect it, and it doesnt > > need to be painted. Bullshit! Perhaps following such disinformation > > was the reason yours rusted out. Diesel doesn't protect the top, where > > condensation forms, nor the bottom, where water sometimes sits. > > Epoxy tar has worked well for my boats, on diesel tanks > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29169|29138|2012-10-23 20:47:36|wild_explorer|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|It is nice to know that diesel fuel tank can be made from 316 SS without problem for long time service. Trackers have diesel tanks made from SS and seems have no problems. I was wondering why it is not recommended for boats (was not mentioned as material for diesel tanks)... I see only one explanation - avoiding dissimilar metals in boat construction. If you look at galvanic scale, steel will act as sacrificial anode for most SS (except 410). But this is in sea water.... Any other explanations?| 29170|29138|2012-10-23 22:32:09|David Jones|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Epoxy encapsulated wood/plywood is an excellent material for making fuel tanks from. However, I believe they have not been allowed in the US for fire safety reasons - something that makes no sense but used to be the case. Not sure it that's changed in recent years. dj On Wed, 24 Oct 2012, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > My diesel tanks are made from plywood, epoxy coated and sheathed with > a layer of glass. They are light, stiff and reasonably cheap and easy > to make. There is little or no condensation and the tanks have lasted > 23 years now. > > I can unhesitatingly recommend this method of building tanks. > > Paul Thompson > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:27 AM, martin demers wrote: > > what insulation material can you use instead, if you have aluminium tanks? > > wood? > > > > Martin > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mhamill1@... > > Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:34:30 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > keep aluminum off vibration insulating materials like industrial belting and tires--the > carbon reacts. MarkH > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29171|29138|2012-10-23 23:13:52|Brian Stannard|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Not sure about that. Balsa cored fiberglass tanks are allowed and have been used in production boats. Bertram used to use cored tanks. There is a good article on the web about how one survived a fire that destroyed the rest of the boat - it was a gasoline tank. Here is a link to replacement tanks for these. http://www.hightidemarine.cc/fuel-tanks.htm Here's West's take on it. http://www.epoxyworks.com/18/pdf/tanks.pdf Interesting article about tank materials here http://www.passagemaker.com/magazine/article-archives/item/826-diesel-fuel-tank-design?tmpl=component&print=1 New Boatbuilders take on this http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/PY_JAN09_51-54_FUEL_TANKS.pdf ABYC does not specifically disallow fiberglass or composite tanks as long as they meet the same standards that metal tanks do. On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 7:32 PM, David Jones wrote: > ** > > > Epoxy encapsulated wood/plywood is an excellent material for making fuel > tanks from. However, I believe they have not been allowed in the US for > fire safety reasons - something that makes no sense but used to be the > case. Not sure it that's changed in recent years. > > dj > > On Wed, 24 Oct 2012, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > > My diesel tanks are made from plywood, epoxy coated and sheathed with > > a layer of glass. They are light, stiff and reasonably cheap and easy > > to make. There is little or no condensation and the tanks have lasted > > 23 years now. > > > > I can unhesitatingly recommend this method of building tanks. > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:27 AM, martin demers > wrote: > > > what insulation material can you use instead, if you have aluminium > tanks? > > > wood? > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: mhamill1@... > > > Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:34:30 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > keep aluminum off vibration insulating materials like industrial > belting and tires--the > > carbon reacts. MarkH > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29172|29138|2012-10-24 07:13:29|David Jones|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|I'm not sure about it either at this point in time. But I know when they first started making them they were disallowed due to fire codes. Haven't followed it in years so I don't know where it currently stands. A cored fiberglass tank is not equivalent. dj On Tue, 23 Oct 2012, Brian Stannard wrote: > Not sure about that. Balsa cored fiberglass tanks are allowed and have been > used in production boats. > Bertram used to use cored tanks. There is a good article on the web about > how one survived a fire that destroyed the rest of the boat - it was a > gasoline tank. > Here is a link to replacement tanks for these. > http://www.hightidemarine.cc/fuel-tanks.htm > > Here's West's take on it. http://www.epoxyworks.com/18/pdf/tanks.pdf > > Interesting article about tank materials here > http://www.passagemaker.com/magazine/article-archives/item/826-diesel-fuel-tank-design?tmpl=component&print=1 > > New Boatbuilders take on this > http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/PY_JAN09_51-54_FUEL_TANKS.pdf > > ABYC does not specifically disallow fiberglass or composite tanks as long > as they meet the same standards that metal tanks do. > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 7:32 PM, David Jones wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> Epoxy encapsulated wood/plywood is an excellent material for making fuel >> tanks from. However, I believe they have not been allowed in the US for >> fire safety reasons - something that makes no sense but used to be the >> case. Not sure it that's changed in recent years. >> >> dj >> >> On Wed, 24 Oct 2012, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> My diesel tanks are made from plywood, epoxy coated and sheathed with >>> a layer of glass. They are light, stiff and reasonably cheap and easy >>> to make. There is little or no condensation and the tanks have lasted >>> 23 years now. >>> >>> I can unhesitatingly recommend this method of building tanks. >>> >>> Paul Thompson >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:27 AM, martin demers >> wrote: >>>> what insulation material can you use instead, if you have aluminium >> tanks? >>>> wood? >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> From: mhamill1@... >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:34:30 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> keep aluminum off vibration insulating materials like industrial >> belting and tires--the >>> carbon reacts. MarkH >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! >>> Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Paul Thompson >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > > > > -- > Cheers > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 29173|29138|2012-10-24 11:20:03|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|In the event of loss of electrics (for various reasons), the day tank provides a source of fuel to your engine. It also will fuel your furnace and cooking stove w/o running a fuel pump continuously. Quite valueable in day to day operation. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-23, at 5:42 PM, MICHAEL FELTON wrote: > Im curious why you use a day tank, I've not heard of that before. Thanks > > From: GORDON SCHNELL > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 6:24 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > For what it's worth; my daytank is a beer keg. It is lying on its side, mounted about 4 ft above the engine for gravity feed. 2 compression fittings carry 2 3/8" SS tubes in thru the neck. One delivers fuel into the day tank from the main tanks and the other gravity-feeds to the injection pump. Gives me 58 L w/o pumping from the belly tanks > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2012-10-23, at 1:02 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > I have had zero problems with my SS day tank as well after 20 years. > > If they are drop in tanks, I would try to get a small drain sump on the > > bottom for easy removal of water. No matter what the material of tank, > > I would make sure I had a large enough access hatch that I could get in > > with my hand to wipe the tank down. You shouldn't (in theory) need to > > do this, but if you ever get some bad diesel or diesel bug, you might. > > > > I agree about painting the inside of mild steel tanks. I painted mine > > with epoxy and it still looks like new inside. Having anything last 20 > > or 30 years on a boat sounds like a long time but time flies when you > > are having fun. > > > > Paul > > > > On 24/10/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > I once saw the taboo against stainless diesel tanks mentioned in > > > Pathetic Yachting Magazine. Then a metalurgist from one of the pulp > > > mills wrote in, saying that they often use stainless for diesel tanks, > > > no problem. I believe that myth was spread by the "Be reasonable and > > > do it the hard way" crowd. If it looks easy, practical and obvious, > > > then there "MUST" be something wrong with it. > > > I have been using a stainless gravity feed day tank for 28 years now. > > > I had magnetic,type 400 stainless for the ends and had some corrision > > > near the bottom, where water sometimes sits. I replaced the bottom > > > ends with type 316. The rest, type 316 , was in perfect condition.I > > > can highly recommend type 316 for diesel tanks. > > > For steel tanks, some say the diesel will protect it, and it doesnt > > > need to be painted. Bullshit! Perhaps following such disinformation > > > was the reason yours rusted out. Diesel doesn't protect the top, where > > > condensation forms, nor the bottom, where water sometimes sits. > > > Epoxy tar has worked well for my boats, on diesel tanks > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29174|29138|2012-10-24 11:23:56|Mike|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Thanks for the info Gordon I can see how that would be useful. How high does the tank need to be mounted above the engine? Sent from my iPhone On Oct 24, 2012, at 10:20 AM, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > In the event of loss of electrics (for various reasons), the day tank provides a source of fuel to your engine. It also will fuel your furnace and cooking stove w/o running a fuel pump continuously. Quite valueable in day to day operation. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2012-10-23, at 5:42 PM, MICHAEL FELTON wrote: > > > Im curious why you use a day tank, I've not heard of that before. Thanks > > > > From: GORDON SCHNELL > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 6:24 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > > > > For what it's worth; my daytank is a beer keg. It is lying on its side, mounted about 4 ft above the engine for gravity feed. 2 compression fittings carry 2 3/8" SS tubes in thru the neck. One delivers fuel into the day tank from the main tanks and the other gravity-feeds to the injection pump. Gives me 58 L w/o pumping from the belly tanks > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On 2012-10-23, at 1:02 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > I have had zero problems with my SS day tank as well after 20 years. > > > If they are drop in tanks, I would try to get a small drain sump on the > > > bottom for easy removal of water. No matter what the material of tank, > > > I would make sure I had a large enough access hatch that I could get in > > > with my hand to wipe the tank down. You shouldn't (in theory) need to > > > do this, but if you ever get some bad diesel or diesel bug, you might. > > > > > > I agree about painting the inside of mild steel tanks. I painted mine > > > with epoxy and it still looks like new inside. Having anything last 20 > > > or 30 years on a boat sounds like a long time but time flies when you > > > are having fun. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 24/10/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > I once saw the taboo against stainless diesel tanks mentioned in > > > > Pathetic Yachting Magazine. Then a metalurgist from one of the pulp > > > > mills wrote in, saying that they often use stainless for diesel tanks, > > > > no problem. I believe that myth was spread by the "Be reasonable and > > > > do it the hard way" crowd. If it looks easy, practical and obvious, > > > > then there "MUST" be something wrong with it. > > > > I have been using a stainless gravity feed day tank for 28 years now. > > > > I had magnetic,type 400 stainless for the ends and had some corrision > > > > near the bottom, where water sometimes sits. I replaced the bottom > > > > ends with type 316. The rest, type 316 , was in perfect condition.I > > > > can highly recommend type 316 for diesel tanks. > > > > For steel tanks, some say the diesel will protect it, and it doesnt > > > > need to be painted. Bullshit! Perhaps following such disinformation > > > > was the reason yours rusted out. Diesel doesn't protect the top, where > > > > condensation forms, nor the bottom, where water sometimes sits. > > > > Epoxy tar has worked well for my boats, on diesel tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29175|29138|2012-10-24 11:38:07|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|It needs to be high enough to ensure flow to each diesel powered device onto add, regardless of boat attitude. I placed mine at 4 ft. because it fit perfectly between the mast supports and the hull, was near the furnace (another diesel user) and was visible but out of the way. Note: It may be closer to 5 ft above the cabin sole. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-24, at 8:24 AM, Mike wrote: > Thanks for the info Gordon I can see how that would be useful. How high does the tank need to be mounted above the engine? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 10:20 AM, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > > > In the event of loss of electrics (for various reasons), the day tank provides a source of fuel to your engine. It also will fuel your furnace and cooking stove w/o running a fuel pump continuously. Quite valueable in day to day operation. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On 2012-10-23, at 5:42 PM, MICHAEL FELTON wrote: > > > > > Im curious why you use a day tank, I've not heard of that before. Thanks > > > > > > From: GORDON SCHNELL > > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 6:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > > > > > > > For what it's worth; my daytank is a beer keg. It is lying on its side, mounted about 4 ft above the engine for gravity feed. 2 compression fittings carry 2 3/8" SS tubes in thru the neck. One delivers fuel into the day tank from the main tanks and the other gravity-feeds to the injection pump. Gives me 58 L w/o pumping from the belly tanks > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > On 2012-10-23, at 1:02 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > I have had zero problems with my SS day tank as well after 20 years. > > > > If they are drop in tanks, I would try to get a small drain sump on the > > > > bottom for easy removal of water. No matter what the material of tank, > > > > I would make sure I had a large enough access hatch that I could get in > > > > with my hand to wipe the tank down. You shouldn't (in theory) need to > > > > do this, but if you ever get some bad diesel or diesel bug, you might. > > > > > > > > I agree about painting the inside of mild steel tanks. I painted mine > > > > with epoxy and it still looks like new inside. Having anything last 20 > > > > or 30 years on a boat sounds like a long time but time flies when you > > > > are having fun. > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > On 24/10/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I once saw the taboo against stainless diesel tanks mentioned in > > > > > Pathetic Yachting Magazine. Then a metalurgist from one of the pulp > > > > > mills wrote in, saying that they often use stainless for diesel tanks, > > > > > no problem. I believe that myth was spread by the "Be reasonable and > > > > > do it the hard way" crowd. If it looks easy, practical and obvious, > > > > > then there "MUST" be something wrong with it. > > > > > I have been using a stainless gravity feed day tank for 28 years now. > > > > > I had magnetic,type 400 stainless for the ends and had some corrision > > > > > near the bottom, where water sometimes sits. I replaced the bottom > > > > > ends with type 316. The rest, type 316 , was in perfect condition.I > > > > > can highly recommend type 316 for diesel tanks. > > > > > For steel tanks, some say the diesel will protect it, and it doesnt > > > > > need to be painted. Bullshit! Perhaps following such disinformation > > > > > was the reason yours rusted out. Diesel doesn't protect the top, where > > > > > condensation forms, nor the bottom, where water sometimes sits. > > > > > Epoxy tar has worked well for my boats, on diesel tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29176|29138|2012-10-24 11:43:43|Mike|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|What kind if primer should I use for inside a steel diesel tank? Sent from my iPhone On Oct 24, 2012, at 10:37 AM, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > It needs to be high enough to ensure flow to each diesel powered device onto add, regardless of boat attitude. I placed mine at 4 ft. because it fit perfectly between the mast supports and the hull, was near the furnace (another diesel user) and was visible but out of the way. Note: It may be closer to 5 ft above the cabin sole. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2012-10-24, at 8:24 AM, Mike wrote: > > > Thanks for the info Gordon I can see how that would be useful. How high does the tank need to be mounted above the engine? > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 10:20 AM, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > > > > > In the event of loss of electrics (for various reasons), the day tank provides a source of fuel to your engine. It also will fuel your furnace and cooking stove w/o running a fuel pump continuously. Quite valueable in day to day operation. > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > On 2012-10-23, at 5:42 PM, MICHAEL FELTON wrote: > > > > > > > Im curious why you use a day tank, I've not heard of that before. Thanks > > > > > > > > From: GORDON SCHNELL > > > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > > > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 6:24 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > > > > > > > > > > For what it's worth; my daytank is a beer keg. It is lying on its side, mounted about 4 ft above the engine for gravity feed. 2 compression fittings carry 2 3/8" SS tubes in thru the neck. One delivers fuel into the day tank from the main tanks and the other gravity-feeds to the injection pump. Gives me 58 L w/o pumping from the belly tanks > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > On 2012-10-23, at 1:02 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > I have had zero problems with my SS day tank as well after 20 years. > > > > > If they are drop in tanks, I would try to get a small drain sump on the > > > > > bottom for easy removal of water. No matter what the material of tank, > > > > > I would make sure I had a large enough access hatch that I could get in > > > > > with my hand to wipe the tank down. You shouldn't (in theory) need to > > > > > do this, but if you ever get some bad diesel or diesel bug, you might. > > > > > > > > > > I agree about painting the inside of mild steel tanks. I painted mine > > > > > with epoxy and it still looks like new inside. Having anything last 20 > > > > > or 30 years on a boat sounds like a long time but time flies when you > > > > > are having fun. > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > On 24/10/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I once saw the taboo against stainless diesel tanks mentioned in > > > > > > Pathetic Yachting Magazine. Then a metalurgist from one of the pulp > > > > > > mills wrote in, saying that they often use stainless for diesel tanks, > > > > > > no problem. I believe that myth was spread by the "Be reasonable and > > > > > > do it the hard way" crowd. If it looks easy, practical and obvious, > > > > > > then there "MUST" be something wrong with it. > > > > > > I have been using a stainless gravity feed day tank for 28 years now. > > > > > > I had magnetic,type 400 stainless for the ends and had some corrision > > > > > > near the bottom, where water sometimes sits. I replaced the bottom > > > > > > ends with type 316. The rest, type 316 , was in perfect condition.I > > > > > > can highly recommend type 316 for diesel tanks. > > > > > > For steel tanks, some say the diesel will protect it, and it doesnt > > > > > > need to be painted. Bullshit! Perhaps following such disinformation > > > > > > was the reason yours rusted out. Diesel doesn't protect the top, where > > > > > > condensation forms, nor the bottom, where water sometimes sits. > > > > > > Epoxy tar has worked well for my boats, on diesel tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29177|29149|2012-10-25 01:59:25|Kim|Re: Ballast: Keel weight -v- lead weight.|Thanks Brent! That will save me a few $$$ too. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > You will need a total of 1500 lbs of lead, 750lbs per keel. The rest is the steel weight. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent ... > > > > Very soon I'll be buying the lead ballast for my 26-footer; but I have a question about the amount of lead I have to buy: > > > > On my plans it says "Keel Wt. 1800lbs". That's the only mention of keel weight or ballast. I assume that means 900lbs keel weight for each of the twin keels. > > > > In an earlier message in this group someone said "My understanding is that in steel boats the keels count as ballast, too. Not just the lead." (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/13081). In one of your messages way back in 2001 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/messages/375) you tended to support that idea when you said that the 36-footer had " ... 5700 lbs keel weight, (4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel) ..." and the 31-footer had " ... 3500 lbs lead ballast, 4500 lbs total keel weight ...". > > > > I haven't actually weighed the twin keels that I built for my boat; but I estimate their total steel content would weigh about 440lbs (220lbs each) (http://smu.gs/PNngPH). Plus there's probably at least about another 66lb in internal keel reinforcing (http://smu.gs/PNngPH). > > > > So the question is: Do I buy 1800lbs of lead, or do I buy 1500lbs of lead (1800lbs - about 300lbs being the steel content of the keels)? > > > > Thanks Brent! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > _________________________________________ | 29178|29138|2012-10-25 10:53:57|wild_explorer|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Some info on construction/welding of the tanks http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/mar_cv_info_010.pdf| 29179|29138|2012-10-25 11:23:56|Gord Schnell|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Mike I will have to go back in my records to find the answer to that. hopefully others will have your answer sooner. Gord On 2012-10-24, at 8:43 AM, Mike wrote: > What kind if primer should I use for inside a steel diesel tank? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 10:37 AM, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > > > It needs to be high enough to ensure flow to each diesel powered device onto add, regardless of boat attitude. I placed mine at 4 ft. because it fit perfectly between the mast supports and the hull, was near the furnace (another diesel user) and was visible but out of the way. Note: It may be closer to 5 ft above the cabin sole. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On 2012-10-24, at 8:24 AM, Mike wrote: > > > > > Thanks for the info Gordon I can see how that would be useful. How high does the tank need to be mounted above the engine? > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 10:20 AM, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > > > > > > > In the event of loss of electrics (for various reasons), the day tank provides a source of fuel to your engine. It also will fuel your furnace and cooking stove w/o running a fuel pump continuously. Quite valueable in day to day operation. > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > On 2012-10-23, at 5:42 PM, MICHAEL FELTON wrote: > > > > > > > > > Im curious why you use a day tank, I've not heard of that before. Thanks > > > > > > > > > > From: GORDON SCHNELL > > > > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > > > > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 6:24 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For what it's worth; my daytank is a beer keg. It is lying on its side, mounted about 4 ft above the engine for gravity feed. 2 compression fittings carry 2 3/8" SS tubes in thru the neck. One delivers fuel into the day tank from the main tanks and the other gravity-feeds to the injection pump. Gives me 58 L w/o pumping from the belly tanks > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > > On 2012-10-23, at 1:02 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I have had zero problems with my SS day tank as well after 20 years. > > > > > > If they are drop in tanks, I would try to get a small drain sump on the > > > > > > bottom for easy removal of water. No matter what the material of tank, > > > > > > I would make sure I had a large enough access hatch that I could get in > > > > > > with my hand to wipe the tank down. You shouldn't (in theory) need to > > > > > > do this, but if you ever get some bad diesel or diesel bug, you might. > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree about painting the inside of mild steel tanks. I painted mine > > > > > > with epoxy and it still looks like new inside. Having anything last 20 > > > > > > or 30 years on a boat sounds like a long time but time flies when you > > > > > > are having fun. > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/10/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I once saw the taboo against stainless diesel tanks mentioned in > > > > > > > Pathetic Yachting Magazine. Then a metalurgist from one of the pulp > > > > > > > mills wrote in, saying that they often use stainless for diesel tanks, > > > > > > > no problem. I believe that myth was spread by the "Be reasonable and > > > > > > > do it the hard way" crowd. If it looks easy, practical and obvious, > > > > > > > then there "MUST" be something wrong with it. > > > > > > > I have been using a stainless gravity feed day tank for 28 years now. > > > > > > > I had magnetic,type 400 stainless for the ends and had some corrision > > > > > > > near the bottom, where water sometimes sits. I replaced the bottom > > > > > > > ends with type 316. The rest, type 316 , was in perfect condition.I > > > > > > > can highly recommend type 316 for diesel tanks. > > > > > > > For steel tanks, some say the diesel will protect it, and it doesnt > > > > > > > need to be painted. Bullshit! Perhaps following such disinformation > > > > > > > was the reason yours rusted out. Diesel doesn't protect the top, where > > > > > > > condensation forms, nor the bottom, where water sometimes sits. > > > > > > > Epoxy tar has worked well for my boats, on diesel tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29180|29138|2012-10-25 11:26:30|Gord Schnell|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|The tank needs to be higher than the injection pump, on your engine, regardless of the attitude of the boat underway. It's gravity flow. Gord On 2012-10-24, at 8:23 AM, Mike wrote: > Thanks for the info Gordon I can see how that would be useful. How high does the tank need to be mounted above the engine? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 10:20 AM, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > > > In the event of loss of electrics (for various reasons), the day tank provides a source of fuel to your engine. It also will fuel your furnace and cooking stove w/o running a fuel pump continuously. Quite valueable in day to day operation. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On 2012-10-23, at 5:42 PM, MICHAEL FELTON wrote: > > > > > Im curious why you use a day tank, I've not heard of that before. Thanks > > > > > > From: GORDON SCHNELL > > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 6:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > > > > > > > > For what it's worth; my daytank is a beer keg. It is lying on its side, mounted about 4 ft above the engine for gravity feed. 2 compression fittings carry 2 3/8" SS tubes in thru the neck. One delivers fuel into the day tank from the main tanks and the other gravity-feeds to the injection pump. Gives me 58 L w/o pumping from the belly tanks > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > On 2012-10-23, at 1:02 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > I have had zero problems with my SS day tank as well after 20 years. > > > > If they are drop in tanks, I would try to get a small drain sump on the > > > > bottom for easy removal of water. No matter what the material of tank, > > > > I would make sure I had a large enough access hatch that I could get in > > > > with my hand to wipe the tank down. You shouldn't (in theory) need to > > > > do this, but if you ever get some bad diesel or diesel bug, you might. > > > > > > > > I agree about painting the inside of mild steel tanks. I painted mine > > > > with epoxy and it still looks like new inside. Having anything last 20 > > > > or 30 years on a boat sounds like a long time but time flies when you > > > > are having fun. > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > On 24/10/2012 8:25 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I once saw the taboo against stainless diesel tanks mentioned in > > > > > Pathetic Yachting Magazine. Then a metalurgist from one of the pulp > > > > > mills wrote in, saying that they often use stainless for diesel tanks, > > > > > no problem. I believe that myth was spread by the "Be reasonable and > > > > > do it the hard way" crowd. If it looks easy, practical and obvious, > > > > > then there "MUST" be something wrong with it. > > > > > I have been using a stainless gravity feed day tank for 28 years now. > > > > > I had magnetic,type 400 stainless for the ends and had some corrision > > > > > near the bottom, where water sometimes sits. I replaced the bottom > > > > > ends with type 316. The rest, type 316 , was in perfect condition.I > > > > > can highly recommend type 316 for diesel tanks. > > > > > For steel tanks, some say the diesel will protect it, and it doesnt > > > > > need to be painted. Bullshit! Perhaps following such disinformation > > > > > was the reason yours rusted out. Diesel doesn't protect the top, where > > > > > condensation forms, nor the bottom, where water sometimes sits. > > > > > Epoxy tar has worked well for my boats, on diesel tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29181|29138|2012-10-25 19:40:28|wild_explorer|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Quote: "The guidelines changed when the diesel fuel system standard was reissued in 2005. Now, stainless steel may be used for fuel tanks, provided the metal meets all other relevant ABYC requirements, essentially those outlined earlier for other metallic tank materials. Stainless steel, if used for fuel tank construction, must be of the 316L or 317L alloy variety and a minimum of 0.0747 inch thick." End_of_Quote Source: http://www.passagemaker.com/magazine/article-archives/item/826-diesel-fuel-tank-design?tmpl=component&print=1| 29182|26895|2012-10-27 11:27:16|jhess314|Re: ALU BS36|BadPirate, Would you mind giving us an estimate of the cost of your aluminum hull. Your costs for aluminum will be higher than for steel, but you won't have to sandblast and paint to the same extent as a steel boat has to. And maybe Brent or other steel boat builders could give comparable costs for a steel BS-36. On second thought, NOT Brent!! He's too good of a scrounger! Nobody else can build as cheaply as him :) Thanks, John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > Erkan(builder), estimated 12,500lbs (bare hull) which was later confirmed when launched. The fuel and water tanks are now full or almost full and the boat is still four inches shy of her lines. After asking a few other bs36 owners, I believe the mast rigging and interior should come out to approx 3000lbs or 3 inches. leaving an inch for hoarding, after all I plan on retiring on-board /.o) > Sounds like a great party Haidan! 34 people 3500lbs... hmmmm, I did the math, that's haidan and 33 bikinni babes, hahaha I'll definetly be raft'in up for the next party. It's been a year since you posted some pic's, how's your interior comming along? I'm just starting on my interior and would sure appreciate some more pic's. > | 29183|29183|2012-10-27 17:05:41|wild_explorer|Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I was looking for small, low RPMs (<3K), 20-45 continuous Hp diesel engine with INDERECT fuel injection and naturally aspirated. But it looks like commercial marine engines start from 80HP and military engines have big displacement ( >3L). Most diesels now have direct injection and turbo (which i do not want). Kubota does not have marine engines. Are there others "bulletproof" old-style diesels still in production?| 29184|29183|2012-10-27 18:07:42|Aaron|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Kubota is marinized by Beta marine inc. See what Klassen has to offer they are close to you. http://klassenengine.com/index-5.html ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 1:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Small commercial/industrial diesel engine   I was looking for small, low RPMs (<3K), 20-45 continuous Hp diesel engine with INDERECT fuel injection and naturally aspirated. But it looks like commercial marine engines start from 80HP and military engines have big displacement ( >3L). Most diesels now have direct injection and turbo (which i do not want). Kubota does not have marine engines. Are there others "bulletproof" old-style diesels still in production? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29185|29138|2012-10-27 19:03:36|Norm Parmley|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|By Coast Guard rules it has to be steel. This unless it has changed in the last year. - Norm P. ________________________________ From: David Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 7:13 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material   I'm not sure about it either at this point in time. But I know when they first started making them they were disallowed due to fire codes. Haven't followed it in years so I don't know where it currently stands. A cored fiberglass tank is not equivalent. dj On Tue, 23 Oct 2012, Brian Stannard wrote: > Not sure about that. Balsa cored fiberglass tanks are allowed and have been > used in production boats. > Bertram used to use cored tanks. There is a good article on the web about > how one survived a fire that destroyed the rest of the boat - it was a > gasoline tank. > Here is a link to replacement tanks for these. > http://www.hightidemarine.cc/fuel-tanks.htm > > Here's West's take on it. http://www.epoxyworks.com/18/pdf/tanks.pdf > > Interesting article about tank materials here > http://www.passagemaker.com/magazine/article-archives/item/826-diesel-fuel-tank-design?tmpl=component&print=1 > > New Boatbuilders take on this > http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/PY_JAN09_51-54_FUEL_TANKS.pdf > > ABYC does not specifically disallow fiberglass or composite tanks as long > as they meet the same standards that metal tanks do. > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 7:32 PM, David Jones wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> Epoxy encapsulated wood/plywood is an excellent material for making fuel >> tanks from. However, I believe they have not been allowed in the US for >> fire safety reasons - something that makes no sense but used to be the >> case. Not sure it that's changed in recent years. >> >> dj >> >> On Wed, 24 Oct 2012, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> My diesel tanks are made from plywood, epoxy coated and sheathed with >>> a layer of glass. They are light, stiff and reasonably cheap and easy >>> to make. There is little or no condensation and the tanks have lasted >>> 23 years now. >>> >>> I can unhesitatingly recommend this method of building tanks. >>> >>> Paul Thompson >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:27 AM, martin demers >> wrote: >>>> what insulation material can you use instead, if you have aluminium >> tanks? >>>> wood? >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> From: mhamill1@... >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:34:30 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> keep aluminum off vibration insulating materials like industrial >> belting and tires--the >>> carbon reacts. MarkH >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! >>> Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Paul Thompson >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > > > > -- > Cheers > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29186|29183|2012-10-27 19:16:27|Paul Wilson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Engines so small won't be turbo charged. My Isuzu came from Klassen and is based on an industrial genset originally running at 3600 rpm. It gets governed down to about max 3000 rpm for a boat. This was 35 hp model 3KR1 in 1986 and I am quite happy with it. I don't think it is available any more but it is an example of an industrial engine which was originally designed as a genset but marinized. I think they used them in train cabooses. Parts are off the shelf....Bosch fuel injection and Hitachi electrics. I wouldn't worry about indirect or direct injection...just get an engine with a good reputation. Anyway, to sum up look and see what kind of diesels the genset manufacturers use because they won't want to use a bad engine. Kubotas or any of the other tractor based diesels are a great choice. I also really like the Sole and the Nanni diesels which are based on Nissan, Toyota, Kubota or other proven engines. I never liked the higher speed Yanmars but after seeing many, I have to admit that they are very good and reliable engines. Expensive though. Stay away from Volvo. Parts are too expensive. The old ones like the MD2 and MD3 were heavy and unreliable. Klassen was a great company when the old man (Vic Klassen) and his wife ran it. Their prices were very good and he steered you straight. I am not sure what it is like now that his son has taken over. Lots of specs here: http://boatdiesel.com/PDFLIbrary/Index/index.cfm?RS=1 Cheers, Paul On 28/10/2012 11:07 a.m., Aaron wrote: > > Kubota is marinized by Beta marine inc. > See what Klassen has to offer they are close to you. > http://klassenengine.com/index-5.html > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 1:05 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > > > > > I was looking for small, low RPMs (<3K), 20-45 continuous Hp diesel > engine with INDERECT fuel injection and naturally aspirated. > > But it looks like commercial marine engines start from 80HP and > military engines have big displacement ( >3L). Most diesels now have > direct injection and turbo (which i do not want). > > Kubota does not have marine engines. > > Are there others "bulletproof" old-style diesels still in production? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 29187|29138|2012-10-27 19:21:52|brentswain38|Re: Diesel fuel tank material|Those would be US coast guard rules. Thank god I live in a freer country than the US, where the government doesnt insist I do things in a foolish way, to appease power tripping, control freak bureacrats. Stainless tanks made out of too thin a smaterial tend to have cracks around the ends, on the corners, when sloshing of the fuel inside flexes the corners to the point of metal fatigue. I once had a flat ended ss muffler crack that way. Cutting a thin, pie shaped slice out of the ends, and pulling the edges of that together , gives you a slightly conical end , far more resistant to such flexing. Puting a bulkhead up solid against the end, also reduces this flexing. Stainless beer kegs make excellent day tanks ( wood stoves etc.) Pub owners pay a $35 deposit on them, so you could probably buy one from a pub owner for his deposit. Scrapyards sometimes have a lot of them, for scrap prices. I have seen far too, many people stopped with lift pump problems to ever want to cruise without a gravity feed day tank, which eliminates dependence on a lift pump. Draining moisture out of diesel fuel is much easier with a gravity feed day tank, with a sump and valve in its bottom. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Parmley wrote: > > By Coast Guard rules it has to be steel. This unless it has changed in the last year. - Norm P. > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Jones > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 7:13 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > > >   > I'm not sure about it either at this point in time. But I know when they > first started making them they were disallowed due to fire codes. Haven't > followed it in years so I don't know where it currently stands. A cored > fiberglass tank is not equivalent. > > dj > > On Tue, 23 Oct 2012, Brian Stannard wrote: > > > Not sure about that. Balsa cored fiberglass tanks are allowed and have been > > used in production boats. > > Bertram used to use cored tanks. There is a good article on the web about > > how one survived a fire that destroyed the rest of the boat - it was a > > gasoline tank. > > Here is a link to replacement tanks for these. > > http://www.hightidemarine.cc/fuel-tanks.htm > > > > Here's West's take on it. http://www.epoxyworks.com/18/pdf/tanks.pdf > > > > Interesting article about tank materials here > > http://www.passagemaker.com/magazine/article-archives/item/826-diesel-fuel-tank-design?tmpl=component&print=1 > > > > New Boatbuilders take on this > > http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/PY_JAN09_51-54_FUEL_TANKS.pdf > > > > ABYC does not specifically disallow fiberglass or composite tanks as long > > as they meet the same standards that metal tanks do. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 7:32 PM, David Jones wrote: > > > >> ** > >> > >> > >> Epoxy encapsulated wood/plywood is an excellent material for making fuel > >> tanks from. However, I believe they have not been allowed in the US for > >> fire safety reasons - something that makes no sense but used to be the > >> case. Not sure it that's changed in recent years. > >> > >> dj > >> > >> On Wed, 24 Oct 2012, Paul Thompson wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> My diesel tanks are made from plywood, epoxy coated and sheathed with > >>> a layer of glass. They are light, stiff and reasonably cheap and easy > >>> to make. There is little or no condensation and the tanks have lasted > >>> 23 years now. > >>> > >>> I can unhesitatingly recommend this method of building tanks. > >>> > >>> Paul Thompson > >>> > >>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:27 AM, martin demers > >> wrote: > >>>> what insulation material can you use instead, if you have aluminium > >> tanks? > >>>> wood? > >>>> > >>>> Martin > >>>> > >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>> From: mhamill1@... > >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:34:30 -0700 > >>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel fuel tank material > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> keep aluminum off vibration insulating materials like industrial > >> belting and tires--the > >>> carbon reacts. MarkH > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! > >>> Groups Links > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> Paul Thompson > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Cheers > > Brian > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29188|29183|2012-10-27 19:23:46|brentswain38|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Kubota diesels are some of the best , with a huge variety of models available --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Kubota is marinized by Beta marine inc. > See what Klassen has to offer they are close to you. > http://klassenengine.com/index-5.html > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 1:05 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > > >   > > I was looking for small, low RPMs (<3K), 20-45 continuous Hp diesel engine with INDERECT fuel injection and naturally aspirated. > > But it looks like commercial marine engines start from 80HP and military engines have big displacement ( >3L). Most diesels now have direct injection and turbo (which i do not want). > > Kubota does not have marine engines. > > Are there others "bulletproof" old-style diesels still in production? > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29189|29183|2012-10-27 19:32:24|Brian Stannard|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Beta is a good engine based on the Kubota block. Parts are reasonable as well - especially the non marine parts which can be purchased from a Kubota tractor dealer. On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > ** > > > Engines so small won't be turbo charged. My Isuzu came from Klassen > and is based on an industrial genset originally running at 3600 rpm. It > gets governed down to about max 3000 rpm for a boat. This was 35 hp > model 3KR1 in 1986 and I am quite happy with it. I don't think it is > available any more but it is an example of an industrial engine which > was originally designed as a genset but marinized. I think they used > them in train cabooses. Parts are off the shelf....Bosch fuel injection > and Hitachi electrics. I wouldn't worry about indirect or direct > injection...just get an engine with a good reputation. Anyway, to sum > up look and see what kind of diesels the genset manufacturers use > because they won't want to use a bad engine. > > Kubotas or any of the other tractor based diesels are a great choice. I > also really like the Sole and the Nanni diesels which are based on > Nissan, Toyota, Kubota or other proven engines. I never liked the > higher speed Yanmars but after seeing many, I have to admit that they > are very good and reliable engines. Expensive though. Stay away from > Volvo. Parts are too expensive. The old ones like the MD2 and MD3 > were heavy and unreliable. > > Klassen was a great company when the old man (Vic Klassen) and his wife > ran it. Their prices were very good and he steered you straight. I am > not sure what it is like now that his son has taken over. > > Lots of specs here: > > http://boatdiesel.com/PDFLIbrary/Index/index.cfm?RS=1 > > Cheers, Paul > > On 28/10/2012 11:07 a.m., Aaron wrote: > > > > Kubota is marinized by Beta marine inc. > > See what Klassen has to offer they are close to you. > > http://klassenengine.com/index-5.html > > > > ________________________________ > > From: wild_explorer > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 1:05 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > > > > > > > > > > > I was looking for small, low RPMs (<3K), 20-45 continuous Hp diesel > > engine with INDERECT fuel injection and naturally aspirated. > > > > But it looks like commercial marine engines start from 80HP and > > military engines have big displacement ( >3L). Most diesels now have > > direct injection and turbo (which i do not want). > > > > Kubota does not have marine engines. > > > > Are there others "bulletproof" old-style diesels still in production? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29190|29190|2012-10-27 19:34:09|brentswain38|Metal cutting skilsaw blade|I just had the opportunity to try out Princess Auto's metal cutting skillsaw blade. Wunnerful! Cuts 3/16th plate like cutting plywood, a machined edge. One blade will cut about 35 feet of plate before losing it's teeth, with zero distortion. At $40 per blade, it is well worth it, as one would use a fair bit of gas for that much cutting, and the saving in time makes it worth while. It is noisy, but gets some super smooth cuts done, with zero distortion. They seem to do better with 1/8th inch plate. With no distortion, they will speed up some parts, especially the building of decks, cabin, and wheelhouse. They would be particularly handy for renovations on painted and foamed steel, with little chance of starting a fire.| 29191|29183|2012-10-27 20:40:15|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|As I understand, Direct Injection (DI) diesels have computer-controled injectors. I prefer simple mechanical solution (indirect injection - IDI). I think that all military diesels still have IDI. Generator's diesels usually rated @1500-1800 RPM. Industrial - @2600-3600 RPM. Another problem with small marinized diesels based on industrial/generator engines, that the specs are given for intermittent use (for pleasure vessel use) instead of continuous. Unless you know exact manufacturer's engine model, you do not have full picture and rating for continuous use. Same problem with small marine transmissions - some do not have continuous rating. Another things is bell-housing size of the engine and transmission. Need to find ones which match. Beta Marine has broken link to engines specs/charts, etc. For example, Beta 50 (based on Kubota V2203 engine) is advertised as 50HP, Kubote's continuous rating for this engine is 38.5HP for industrial use (@ 2800 RPM), 27.1HP for generator use (@ 1800 RPM) Klassen has lot of information, but hard to navigate - need to open every spec and see if engine may fit to your application. Does "marinization" just means bigger oil pan and matching engine and transmission (physical dimensions and power matching)? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I wouldn't worry about indirect or direct > injection...just get an engine with a good reputation. Anyway, to sum > up look and see what kind of diesels the genset manufacturers use > because they won't want to use a bad engine. > | 29192|29190|2012-10-27 20:43:43|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Metal cutting Skilsaw blade|Brent, What kind of Skilsaw are you running it on? The metal cutting chop saws using toothed blades run much slower than wood miter saws. I suspect that these blades would run much better on a worm drive Skilsaw that turns much slower than the typical ones that are sold in most home stores. I have owned a couple of cold saws, the blade was 14” and turned at 40 rpm. It cut steel with no burr and a beautiful machined finish. However at 40 rpm the torque produced was enormous, the saw was bolted down and the steel was held in a very substantial vise that held it from both sides. Cold saw blades get resharpened, about $12 each time. When the teeth are too small to sharpen they charged $10 to remove all the teeth and grind in a whole new set. So the 14” blade could be resharpened and retoothed until it was about 10” in diameter. Gary H. Lucas From: brentswain38 Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 7:34 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Metal cutting skilsaw blade I just had the opportunity to try out Princess Auto's metal cutting skillsaw blade. Wunnerful! Cuts 3/16th plate like cutting plywood, a machined edge. One blade will cut about 35 feet of plate before losing it's teeth, with zero distortion. At $40 per blade, it is well worth it, as one would use a fair bit of gas for that much cutting, and the saving in time makes it worth while. It is noisy, but gets some super smooth cuts done, with zero distortion. They seem to do better with 1/8th inch plate. With no distortion, they will speed up some parts, especially the building of decks, cabin, and wheelhouse. They would be particularly handy for renovations on painted and foamed steel, with little chance of starting a fire. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29193|29183|2012-10-27 21:48:59|Paul Wilson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I think whether it is computer controlled or not is a side issue. I don't know of any small diesels that have computer controlled injection. Only the big ones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection An indirect injection diesel engine delivers fuel into a chamber off the combustion chamber, called a prechamber, where combustion begins and then spreads into the main combustion chamber. The prechamber is carefully designed to ensure adequate mixing of the atomized fuel with the compression-heated air. The purpose of the divided combustion chamber is to speed up the combustion process, in order to increase the power output by increasing engine speed. Generators normally run hour after hour and are not for intermittent use. So are tractor engines. Marine diesels are the same although there are some gearboxes not rated properly for their engines. There was a Perkins that came out a few years ago with the wrong Hurth (ZF) gearbox and the gearboxes kept blowing up. Going from the Hurth 100 to 150 series solved the problem. It was a Perkins screw up, not Hurth since Hurth has the ratings on their site. I agree, not all the info is easy to find and you need to go to all the individual sites.....engine, gearbox, drive plates, bell housings, mounts, manifolds, etc, etc. You will spend many hours figuring it out yourself and each site will be lacking since it is not in their interest for you to do it all on your own. A good diesel guy should know the answers since it has all been done many times before but he won't want to do it for free either. This company has a lot of info on their site. You might find it helps. http://www.merequipment.com/mer-products.aspx Paul On 28/10/2012 1:40 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > As I understand, Direct Injection (DI) diesels have computer-controled > injectors. I prefer simple mechanical solution (indirect injection - > IDI). I think that all military diesels still have IDI. > > Generator's diesels usually rated @1500-1800 RPM. Industrial - > @2600-3600 RPM. > > Another problem with small marinized diesels based on > industrial/generator engines, that the specs are given for > intermittent use (for pleasure vessel use) instead of continuous. > Unless you know exact manufacturer's engine model, you do not have > full picture and rating for continuous use. Same problem with small > marine transmissions - some do not have continuous rating. > > Another things is bell-housing size of the engine and transmission. > Need to find ones which match. > > Beta Marine has broken link to engines specs/charts, etc. For example, > Beta 50 (based on Kubota V2203 engine) is advertised as 50HP, Kubote's > continuous rating for this engine is 38.5HP for industrial use (@ 2800 > RPM), 27.1HP for generator use (@ 1800 RPM) > > Klassen has lot of information, but hard to navigate - need to open > every spec and see if engine may fit to your application. > > Does "marinization" just means bigger oil pan and matching engine and > transmission (physical dimensions and power matching)? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I wouldn't worry about indirect or direct > > injection...just get an engine with a good reputation. Anyway, to sum > > up look and see what kind of diesels the genset manufacturers use > > because they won't want to use a bad engine. > > > > | 29194|29183|2012-10-27 23:03:32|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Thanks Paul for the links! There is some good information there. Agree, engine choice, matching and installation is not simple... But building a boat is not simple task as well ;) So far, I like Kubota website - they have some information on one page for fast look/estimate and its engines are used in industrial equipment - easier to find parts or used engine. http://www.kubotaengine.com/products/pdf_en/Kubote%20Engine%20PocketGuide%20Jul%202010.pdf As you can see, Kubota has V2203 in industrial (03-M) and generator (BG) series. It has slightly different specs (dimensions and weight). I really do not know what the difference is. Looks like the same basic engine to me... If the engine is designed to run good @2800 RPM for Max HP output as well as @ 1800 RPM for Max fuel economy - looks like a good engine... As I see, generator engines have its industrial version too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Generators normally run hour after hour and are not for intermittent > use. So are tractor engines. Marine diesels are the same although there > are some gearboxes not rated properly for their engines. There was a > Perkins that came out a few years ago with the wrong Hurth (ZF) gearbox > and the gearboxes kept blowing up. Going from the Hurth 100 to 150 > series solved the problem. It was a Perkins screw up, not Hurth since > Hurth has the ratings on their site. > > I agree, not all the info is easy to find and you need to go to all the > individual sites.....engine, gearbox, drive plates, bell housings, > mounts, manifolds, etc, etc. You will spend many hours figuring it out > yourself and each site will be lacking since it is not in their interest > for you to do it all on your own. A good diesel guy should know the > answers since it has all been done many times before but he won't want > to do it for free either. > > This company has a lot of info on their site. You might find it helps. > > http://www.merequipment.com/mer-products.aspx > > Paul | 29195|29183|2012-10-28 03:20:17|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I believe the 4 cylinder VW engines are all direct diesel injection and turbo is available for most of them. I am using the 1.6L w/o the turbo for approx 52 HP. If I find that inadequate, I will bolt on the turbo for 68 HP. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-27, at 5:40 PM, "wild_explorer" wrote: > As I understand, Direct Injection (DI) diesels have computer-controled injectors. I prefer simple mechanical solution (indirect injection - IDI). I think that all military diesels still have IDI. > > Generator's diesels usually rated @1500-1800 RPM. Industrial - @2600-3600 RPM. > > Another problem with small marinized diesels based on industrial/generator engines, that the specs are given for intermittent use (for pleasure vessel use) instead of continuous. Unless you know exact manufacturer's engine model, you do not have full picture and rating for continuous use. Same problem with small marine transmissions - some do not have continuous rating. > > Another things is bell-housing size of the engine and transmission. Need to find ones which match. > > Beta Marine has broken link to engines specs/charts, etc. For example, Beta 50 (based on Kubota V2203 engine) is advertised as 50HP, Kubote's continuous rating for this engine is 38.5HP for industrial use (@ 2800 RPM), 27.1HP for generator use (@ 1800 RPM) > > Klassen has lot of information, but hard to navigate - need to open every spec and see if engine may fit to your application. > > Does "marinization" just means bigger oil pan and matching engine and transmission (physical dimensions and power matching)? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I wouldn't worry about indirect or direct > > injection...just get an engine with a good reputation. Anyway, to sum > > up look and see what kind of diesels the genset manufacturers use > > because they won't want to use a bad engine. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29196|29183|2012-10-28 03:21:57|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Please note: the VW diesels do not use computer control for injection Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-27, at 5:40 PM, "wild_explorer" wrote: > As I understand, Direct Injection (DI) diesels have computer-controled injectors. I prefer simple mechanical solution (indirect injection - IDI). I think that all military diesels still have IDI. > > Generator's diesels usually rated @1500-1800 RPM. Industrial - @2600-3600 RPM. > > Another problem with small marinized diesels based on industrial/generator engines, that the specs are given for intermittent use (for pleasure vessel use) instead of continuous. Unless you know exact manufacturer's engine model, you do not have full picture and rating for continuous use. Same problem with small marine transmissions - some do not have continuous rating. > > Another things is bell-housing size of the engine and transmission. Need to find ones which match. > > Beta Marine has broken link to engines specs/charts, etc. For example, Beta 50 (based on Kubota V2203 engine) is advertised as 50HP, Kubote's continuous rating for this engine is 38.5HP for industrial use (@ 2800 RPM), 27.1HP for generator use (@ 1800 RPM) > > Klassen has lot of information, but hard to navigate - need to open every spec and see if engine may fit to your application. > > Does "marinization" just means bigger oil pan and matching engine and transmission (physical dimensions and power matching)? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I wouldn't worry about indirect or direct > > injection...just get an engine with a good reputation. Anyway, to sum > > up look and see what kind of diesels the genset manufacturers use > > because they won't want to use a bad engine. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29197|29183|2012-10-28 11:28:55|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|VW diesel is reliable engine. The problem with automotive engines is that it is hard to find FULL information about it and performance charts. Another problem - manufacturers try to make changes pretty often instead of sticking to exactly the same engine and even have some variations of the same engine. May be because US regulations are more strict to automotive than to industrial engines and to "please" customers. I was trying to find information about VW 1.6L diesel (R4 ?). Looks like it based on 68* series industrial engine (depends on the year of production). Old VW engines should have Indirect Injection. I believe that Direct injection is more recent development for diesel engines. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > > I believe the 4 cylinder VW engines are all direct diesel injection and turbo is available for most of them. I am using the 1.6L w/o the turbo for approx 52 HP. If I find that inadequate, I will bolt on the turbo for 68 HP. > > Sent from my iPhone > | 29198|29183|2012-10-28 11:42:55|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Design, Operation, and Overhaul of Pathfinder Marine Engine (VW industrial engine) http://www.brighthubengineering.com/marine-engines-machinery/105910-design-operation-and-overhaul-of-pathfinder-marine-engine/| 29199|29183|2012-10-28 13:45:29|martin demers|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I have a vw pathfinder in my boat, but I did not tried it yet Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 15:42:54 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine Design, Operation, and Overhaul of Pathfinder Marine Engine (VW industrial engine) http://www.brighthubengineering.com/marine-engines-machinery/105910-design-operation-and-overhaul-of-pathfinder-marine-engine/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29200|29183|2012-10-28 13:48:10|Paul Wilson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I got my numbers wrong.....the Hurth Gearbox was upgraded from a 50 series to 100 series....not 100 to 150. Not bad though, it was probably 15 or 20 years ago. Not sure why I remember such things. My wife can't understand why I can't remember what I had for dinner last night. Cheers, Paul On 28/10/2012 2:46 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > Generators normally run hour after hour and are not for intermittent > use. So are tractor engines. Marine diesels are the same although there > are some gearboxes not rated properly for their engines. There was a > Perkins that came out a few years ago with the wrong Hurth (ZF) gearbox > and the gearboxes kept blowing up. Going from the Hurth 100 to 150 > series solved the problem. It was a Perkins screw up, not Hurth since > Hurth has the ratings on their site. | 29201|29183|2012-10-28 14:16:46|Robert Jones|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Wild explorer commented : "Does "marinization" just means bigger oil pan and matching engine and transmission (physical dimensions and power matching)?" "Marinization", can mean different things to different manufacturers, but always involves the cooling system being modified to cool with seawater, either directly or indirectly. Usually, process also involves cooling the exhaust with seawater prior to its exit through the hull. Some after market companies that are in the business of taking a brand, such as John Deere or Kubota, and modifying them for propulsion or generation at sea , will change alternators, oil pumps and pans, and even fuel delivery systems to specifically handle the challenges in their design purview. On the other hand, if your boat is keel cooled and dry stack exhausted, there is actually nothing to "marinize" and you can use a much cheaper, off the shelf propulsion engine of generator. It is a misconception to call an engine that does not use seawater to aid in cooling, either the engine water or exhaust , marinized. In fact, it is just an engine on a boat. Most commercial boat propulsion and power generation is done using keel cooled, dry stacked diesels that are the same engine as you would find in a truck, piece of equipment of on land generator. As with all engines, the fuel delivery system(pumps, injectors, ect) can vary according to the expected demands. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29202|29183|2012-10-28 18:30:12|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|My 1,6L is from an '86 Jetta. It is direct injection and has a bolt-on turbo that adds another 14 - 18 HP Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-28, at 8:28 AM, "wild_explorer" wrote: > VW diesel is reliable engine. The problem with automotive engines is that it is hard to find FULL information about it and performance charts. > > Another problem - manufacturers try to make changes pretty often instead of sticking to exactly the same engine and even have some variations of the same engine. May be because US regulations are more strict to automotive than to industrial engines and to "please" customers. > > I was trying to find information about VW 1.6L diesel (R4 ?). Looks like it based on 68* series industrial engine (depends on the year of production). > > Old VW engines should have Indirect Injection. I believe that Direct injection is more recent development for diesel engines. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > > > > I believe the 4 cylinder VW engines are all direct diesel injection and turbo is available for most of them. I am using the 1.6L w/o the turbo for approx 52 HP. If I find that inadequate, I will bolt on the turbo for 68 HP. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29203|29183|2012-10-28 18:57:08|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Thanks for clarification on "marinization". Do you know what the difference could be between "generator" and "industrial" version of the same basic diesel engine (same displacement, bore, stroke, etc.)? It has slightly different weight & dimensions... The specs are given only for "industrial" version. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Wild explorer commented : > > "Does "marinization" just means bigger oil pan and matching engine and transmission (physical dimensions and power matching)?" > > "Marinization", can mean different things to different manufacturers, but always involves the cooling system being modified to cool with seawater, either directly or indirectly. Usually, process also involves cooling the exhaust with seawater prior to its exit through the hull. Some after market companies that are in the business of taking a brand, such as John Deere or Kubota, and modifying them for propulsion or generation at sea , will change alternators, oil pumps and pans, and even fuel delivery systems to specifically handle the challenges in their design purview. On the other hand, if your boat is keel cooled and dry stack exhausted, there is actually nothing to "marinize" and you can use a much cheaper, off the shelf propulsion engine of generator. It is a misconception to call an engine that does not use seawater to aid in cooling, either the engine water or exhaust , marinized. In fact, it is just an engine on a boat. Most commercial boat > propulsion and power generation is done using keel cooled, dry stacked diesels that are the same engine as you would find in a truck, piece of equipment of on land generator. As with all engines, the fuel delivery system(pumps, injectors, ect) can vary according to the expected demands. > | 29204|29183|2012-10-28 21:31:33|Robert Jones|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I am attaching a flyer from John Deere. explaining what they, and other manufacturers cal. "M" ratings. Some brands use A, B, C, ect., and some use light, med, heavy and industrial and generator "rated". None of this means much unless you know how much of each day and year you intend to use an engine. This is called DUTY CYCLE. The fastest way to engine suicide is prolonged duty cycle abuse. The John Deere brochure gives a good idea of how, at least one brand, figures duty cycles. That being said, "maximum rated HP" is seldom the amount of HP that any engine will effectively put out on continuous duty., which, by all that is right and good should mean 24/7/365. Be watchful for yanmar, as theirs is not! So, for an engine that will run long stretches without rest(generator), at 30hp, continous, you would find that you would be purchasing an engine that, at maximum, would be around 50hp. All John Deere does to change thier ratings is to limit fuel by omitting turbos, intercoolers, ect, and slow the rpms down thus allowing the engine to run longer, without building heat, and healthier. Complicated issue. Are you trying to build a generator or propulsion system? http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/zmags/engines_and_drivetrain/services_and_support/engine_literature/marine_selection_guide.html --- On Sun, 10/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 4:57 PM   Thanks for clarification on "marinization". Do you know what the difference could be between "generator" and "industrial" version of the same basic diesel engine (same displacement, bore, stroke, etc.)? It has slightly different weight & dimensions... The specs are given only for "industrial" version. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Wild explorer commented : > > "Does "marinization" just means bigger oil pan and matching engine and transmission (physical dimensions and power matching)?" > > "Marinization", can mean different things to different manufacturers, but always involves the cooling system being modified to cool with seawater, either directly or indirectly. Usually, process also involves cooling the exhaust with seawater prior to its exit through the hull. Some after market companies that are in the business of taking a brand, such as John Deere or Kubota, and modifying them for propulsion or generation at sea , will change alternators, oil pumps and pans, and even fuel delivery systems to specifically handle the challenges in their design purview. On the other hand, if your boat is keel cooled and dry stack exhausted, there is actually nothing to "marinize" and you can use a much cheaper, off the shelf propulsion engine of generator. It is a misconception to call an engine that does not use seawater to aid in cooling, either the engine water or exhaust , marinized. In fact, it is just an engine on a boat. Most commercial boat > propulsion and power generation is done using keel cooled, dry stacked diesels that are the same engine as you would find in a truck, piece of equipment of on land generator. As with all engines, the fuel delivery system(pumps, injectors, ect) can vary according to the expected demands. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29205|29183|2012-10-28 23:27:10|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Thanks for the link - interesting. Unfortunately, it is for bigger engines ( > 4L) I am trying to make propulsion system. I was asking about generator, because the same engine exist in 2 versions. I guess, that "generator" version may have different fuel delivery system (to keep more stable RPMs in 1800 range) vs "industrial". According to this link information, running engine continuously > 24hr will require engine with JD M1 rating. So, if you will run the engine for 72hr straight @ 100% power (let say storm), do you need engine with M1 rating? It is interesting, that JD "generator" rating has unlimited hours with <67% continuous power (kind of under M1 rating), but restricted to generator application only. Some used diesel engines may come from a generator... The question is: "Will be generator version suitable for boat propulsion system instead of using industrial version?" --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > I am attaching a flyer from John Deere. explaining what they, and other manufacturers cal. "M" ratings. Some brands use A, B, C, ect., and some use light, med, heavy and industrial and generator "rated". None of this means much unless you know how much of each day and year you intend to use an engine. This is called DUTY CYCLE. The fastest way to engine suicide is prolonged duty cycle abuse. The John Deere brochure gives a good idea of how, at least one brand, figures duty cycles. That being said, "maximum rated HP" is seldom the amount of HP that any engine will effectively put out on continuous duty., which, by all that is right and good should mean 24/7/365. Be watchful for yanmar, as theirs is not! So, for an engine that will run long stretches without rest(generator), at 30hp, continous, you would find that you would be purchasing an engine that, at maximum, would be around 50hp. All John Deere does to change thier ratings is to limit fuel by > omitting turbos, intercoolers, ect, and slow the rpms down thus allowing the engine to run longer, without building heat, and healthier. Complicated issue. Are you trying to build a generator or propulsion system? > > http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/zmags/engines_and_drivetrain/services_and_support/engine_literature/marine_selection_guide.html > > --- On Sun, 10/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 4:57 PM > > > Thanks for clarification on "marinization". > > > > Do you know what the difference could be between "generator" and "industrial" version of the same basic diesel engine (same displacement, bore, stroke, etc.)? It has slightly different weight & dimensions... The specs are given only for "industrial" version. > | 29206|29183|2012-10-28 23:52:14|Paul Wilson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|On 29/10/2012 4:27 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > The question is: "Will be generator version suitable for boat > propulsion system instead of using industrial version?" I would say yes. I don't think you have to worry about duty cycle of the engine. Only the gearbox. You will never run the engine at close to 100% for hour after hour. I have run my engine for day after day but when I do so it is just ticking along at relatively low rpm in calms. It is not putting out much power. The max I have ever run is maybe 24 or 2500 rpm but engine is rated at 3000 rpm....this would be going through a pass with adverse current and wind and max would be about 1 hour. With the engine originally designed for 3600 rpm in generator mode this is not a problem. Biggest problem with boat diesels is usually not working them hard enough by running hour after hour only charging batteries under little load. The engines get polished cylinders (so I am told) and start smoking and burning oil. The only exception I can think of is an undersized engine with a too big or fouled prop..... Paul| 29207|29183|2012-10-29 01:46:59|Aaron|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I have the Klassen Suzi 37 which is a Mitsubishi S4L2. Used by Linclon for welding machines? Westerbeke also marinizes the same.  ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 7:27 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine   Thanks for the link - interesting. Unfortunately, it is for bigger engines ( > 4L) I am trying to make propulsion system. I was asking about generator, because the same engine exist in 2 versions. I guess, that "generator" version may have different fuel delivery system (to keep more stable RPMs in 1800 range) vs "industrial". According to this link information, running engine continuously > 24hr will require engine with JD M1 rating. So, if you will run the engine for 72hr straight @ 100% power (let say storm), do you need engine with M1 rating? It is interesting, that JD "generator" rating has unlimited hours with <67% continuous power (kind of under M1 rating), but restricted to generator application only. Some used diesel engines may come from a generator... The question is: "Will be generator version suitable for boat propulsion system instead of using industrial version?" --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > I am attaching a flyer from John Deere. explaining what they, and other manufacturers cal. "M" ratings. Some brands use A, B, C, ect., and some use light, med, heavy and industrial and generator "rated". None of this means much unless you know how much of each day and year you intend to use an engine. This is called DUTY CYCLE. The fastest way to engine suicide is prolonged duty cycle abuse. The John Deere brochure gives a good idea of how, at least one brand, figures duty cycles. That being said, "maximum rated HP" is seldom the amount of HP that any engine will effectively put out on continuous duty., which, by all that is right and good should mean 24/7/365. Be watchful for yanmar, as theirs is not! So, for an engine that will run long stretches without rest(generator), at 30hp, continous, you would find that you would be purchasing an engine that, at maximum, would be around 50hp. All John Deere does to change thier ratings is to limit fuel by > omitting turbos, intercoolers, ect, and slow the rpms down thus allowing the engine to run longer, without building heat, and healthier. Complicated issue. Are you trying to build a generator or propulsion system? > > http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/zmags/engines_and_drivetrain/services_and_support/engine_literature/marine_selection_guide.html > > --- On Sun, 10/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 4:57 PM > > > Thanks for clarification on "marinization". > > > > Do you know what the difference could be between "generator" and "industrial" version of the same basic diesel engine (same displacement, bore, stroke, etc.)? It has slightly different weight & dimensions... The specs are given only for "industrial" version. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29208|29183|2012-10-29 07:44:45|Robert Jones|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|The fuel, and more specifically, the governor's on generator specific engines are set up to run at a specific maximum rpm, and usually are set up with demand sensors to bring the generator up at a higher rpm, then bring it down sensing demand. Also, generator designers know that for most recreational users, that peak power demand will be seldom. If you are running electric stove, or microwave or even air condition, it will only be for part of the day, so demand will never be at continuous peak. Basically, if you look at JD's ratings closely, all they are doing is slowing the same engine down to be able to run it longer. You can take any 50(max)hp engine, which is desingned to give max power at 3000 rpm, for 40% duty,and slow it down to, say, 1800rpm, or 60% of its top rpm, and you get that  30HP, continuous duty engine. After all the ratings, that is the way that the engineers figure it. HP/cubic liter. The lower the HP per cubic liter, the longer the engine will run at a time, and the longer it will last. Once you understand duty cycles, then you must add propping into that mix. You want to make max use out of your engine/prop combo, while allowing the engine to liesurely putt along and around 60%. Personally, i like a vehicle, be it boat, truck of tractor, to do the work i need done, or cruise the speed i want to go at around 50% capacity. Then, every now and then, i bring it up a tad, to say 80% for a little while, to make sure any carbon deposits are burned off. So, for a cruising boat, i want the prop, in normal water, to put enough torque on the engine to make 80, or, at most, 85% or the max rpm, be as high as the engine will rev before the torque from the prop will pull it down. That way, should you be at your boats max, which is less than the rated max, and the prop happen to cavitate and allow the engine to over rev, it still is in its rated range. Most new, Tier 2 and 3 engines will have electric limiters to prevent over revving. Nice, but more electronics. I also like engines that run with no electricity at all!! Simple!!! --- On Sun, 10/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 9:27 PM   Thanks for the link - interesting. Unfortunately, it is for bigger engines ( > 4L) I am trying to make propulsion system. I was asking about generator, because the same engine exist in 2 versions. I guess, that "generator" version may have different fuel delivery system (to keep more stable RPMs in 1800 range) vs "industrial". According to this link information, running engine continuously > 24hr will require engine with JD M1 rating. So, if you will run the engine for 72hr straight @ 100% power (let say storm), do you need engine with M1 rating? It is interesting, that JD "generator" rating has unlimited hours with <67% continuous power (kind of under M1 rating), but restricted to generator application only. Some used diesel engines may come from a generator... The question is: "Will be generator version suitable for boat propulsion system instead of using industrial version?" --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > I am attaching a flyer from John Deere. explaining what they, and other manufacturers cal. "M" ratings. Some brands use A, B, C, ect., and some use light, med, heavy and industrial and generator "rated". None of this means much unless you know how much of each day and year you intend to use an engine. This is called DUTY CYCLE. The fastest way to engine suicide is prolonged duty cycle abuse. The John Deere brochure gives a good idea of how, at least one brand, figures duty cycles. That being said, "maximum rated HP" is seldom the amount of HP that any engine will effectively put out on continuous duty., which, by all that is right and good should mean 24/7/365. Be watchful for yanmar, as theirs is not! So, for an engine that will run long stretches without rest(generator), at 30hp, continous, you would find that you would be purchasing an engine that, at maximum, would be around 50hp. All John Deere does to change thier ratings is to limit fuel by > omitting turbos, intercoolers, ect, and slow the rpms down thus allowing the engine to run longer, without building heat, and healthier. Complicated issue. Are you trying to build a generator or propulsion system? > > http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/zmags/engines_and_drivetrain/services_and_support/engine_literature/marine_selection_guide.html > > --- On Sun, 10/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 4:57 PM > > > Thanks for clarification on "marinization". > > > > Do you know what the difference could be between "generator" and "industrial" version of the same basic diesel engine (same displacement, bore, stroke, etc.)? It has slightly different weight & dimensions... The specs are given only for "industrial" version. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29209|29183|2012-10-29 08:01:31|Robert Jones|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Paul, it sounds like you are normally running your 3600 rpm engine at around 2200 rpm. That is around 60% of it's max power, which if your engine had a continous 100% duty cycle, you would be right in it. Perfect!! That is your most effecient area for fuel use and longevity. The problem could  be, if someone would take your boat, and because you are not using your max horsepower, put an engine 40% smaller in, and expect it to last as long as yours. Impossible! As for glazing the cylinder walls, that usually comes from running for long periods at less than 50% rpm. But, you can run for hours, or most of the day at those rpms, and then run for a higher rpm for 15-30 minutes a day and avoid that scenario. Another issue that causes glazing, is short runs where the engine seldom is brought to it's operating temp, thus not letting it burn off the scale on the cylinder heads and walls. If you take a bowl of diesel fuel and put it in an oven (not at home) at 150 degrees, and as it evaporates, it turns into a nylon/plastic film. More=so if any Bio materials are involved. --- On Sun, 10/28/12, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 9:49 PM   On 29/10/2012 4:27 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > The question is: "Will be generator version suitable for boat > propulsion system instead of using industrial version?" I would say yes. I don't think you have to worry about duty cycle of the engine. Only the gearbox. You will never run the engine at close to 100% for hour after hour. I have run my engine for day after day but when I do so it is just ticking along at relatively low rpm in calms. It is not putting out much power. The max I have ever run is maybe 24 or 2500 rpm but engine is rated at 3000 rpm....this would be going through a pass with adverse current and wind and max would be about 1 hour. With the engine originally designed for 3600 rpm in generator mode this is not a problem. Biggest problem with boat diesels is usually not working them hard enough by running hour after hour only charging batteries under little load. The engines get polished cylinders (so I am told) and start smoking and burning oil. The only exception I can think of is an undersized engine with a too big or fouled prop..... Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29210|29183|2012-10-29 09:31:42|m riley|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|The VW diesel is a converted gas engine that gave good service in a lightweight rabbit. When used in a vanagon at 5,000 lbs. it is a problematic limited life engine. Parts are hard to source now for the 1.6. and are mostly made in china and of low quality. auto use has a high proportion of coasting. How much does your boat weigh and how much does it coast? check out the diesel vanagon list mike| 29211|29183|2012-10-29 10:57:04|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I see that most diesel engines now is Tier 4. Does it means that older used engines (same model) with Tier 2 should cost less? I would prefer engine with less/no electronics/electricity requirements if possible... As I understand, Max torque and Max fuel economy for most industrial diesels is around 1500-1800 RPM. This probably will be the best possible mark to check propeller calculations (boat reaching hull speed at this RPM) for best possible use of the engine. After reaching hull speed, it will require much more power input (good for short runs and loading the engine up to 100% for carbon clean-up?). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > The fuel, and more specifically, the governor's on generator specific engines are set up to run at a specific maximum rpm, and usually are set up with demand sensors to bring the generator up at a higher rpm, then bring it down sensing demand. Also, generator designers know that for most recreational users, that peak power demand will be seldom. If you are running electric stove, or microwave or even air condition, it will only be for part of the day, so demand will never be at continuous peak. Basically, if you look at JD's ratings closely, all they are doing is slowing the same engine down to be able to run it longer. You can take any 50(max)hp engine, which is desingned to give max power at 3000 rpm, for 40% duty,and slow it down to, say, 1800rpm, or 60% of its top rpm, and you get that  30HP, continuous duty engine. After all the ratings, that is the way that the engineers figure it. HP/cubic liter. The lower the HP per cubic liter, the longer the > engine will run at a time, and the longer it will last. Once you understand duty cycles, then you must add propping into that mix. You want to make max use out of your engine/prop combo, while allowing the engine to liesurely putt along and around 60%. Personally, i like a vehicle, be it boat, truck of tractor, to do the work i need done, or cruise the speed i want to go at around 50% capacity. Then, every now and then, i bring it up a tad, to say 80% for a little while, to make sure any carbon deposits are burned off. So, for a cruising boat, i want the prop, in normal water, to put enough torque on the engine to make 80, or, at most, 85% or the max rpm, be as high as the engine will rev before the torque from the prop will pull it down. That way, should you be at your boats max, which is less than the rated max, and the prop happen to cavitate and allow the engine to over rev, it still is in its rated range. Most new, Tier 2 and 3 engines will have > electric limiters to prevent over revving. Nice, but more electronics. I also like engines that run with no electricity at all!! Simple!!! > | 29212|29183|2012-10-29 11:01:23|martin demers|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I have installed a 1.9 l tdi( ahu) in my vw vanagon, it devellops much more hp than the 1.6 l that came in a rabbit, it should last much longer ( I hope... lol) Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mkriley48@... Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 06:31:41 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine The VW diesel is a converted gas engine that gave good service in a lightweight rabbit. When used in a vanagon at 5,000 lbs. it is a problematic limited life engine. Parts are hard to source now for the 1.6. and are mostly made in china and of low quality. auto use has a high proportion of coasting. How much does your boat weigh and how much does it coast? check out the diesel vanagon list mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29213|29213|2012-10-29 11:06:56|southcoveemail|Copperfree antifouling|Does anyone have experience with this type of bottom paint? As the price of copper goes up (>US$7.5/kg) and environmental regulations go tighter, I am getting more interested in copperfree antifouling.| 29214|29183|2012-10-29 15:38:05|Paul Thompson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I've had a Mitsubishi KB3 (a engine typically found in small tractors, large garden mowers and gensets) in LC for the last 17 years. It was sold as a Vetus M3.10. The Vetus stuff was junk and is all long gone but the engine it's self has never given a days trouble in all these years. It has no computers, only needs electrics for starting, is a basic simple three cylinder rated for 22hp @ 3600. I normally run it at about 2800 rpm and typically for an hour or two. I try never to run it for less than an hour. I have also run it for three - four days continuously a couple of times. Going up the Intra Coastal Waterway a few years ago it was running everyday for at least 10 hours, I got the impression that the engine just loved it. When first installed it was the normal setup, flexible mountings, wet exhaust etc... and I had the normal troubles. I have subsequently adopted Brent's philosophy and it is now solidly mounted, dry exhaust and internal (keel tank) cooling and now do nothing but change filters, adjust tappets and put in clean diesel. When I first bought the engine, a mechanic told me to run it hard and I'll have no trouble... and that is what I do. Having an 9ton boat, it has to run 2 800 for 5kts and 3200 for about six so it does indeed work hard. Some would say that 22hp is to small for a 9ton boat but this is a sail boat and almost always when the seas are such that the engine alone cannot make headway, adding some sail helps. I have only really felt I wanted more power when maneuvering in confined quarters. 9 tons takes a lot of power to get moving and to stop so it's full throttle and then throttle back immediately and that has worked well so far. If I were to re power, I'd likely go for 36hp, and that indeed was what I originally wanted but the price was right and I was not flush, so that was it. -- Regards, Paul Thompson| 29215|29183|2012-10-29 20:55:42|Robert Jones|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Agreed. 16-1800 is the range i like on about all diesels i run. And yes, the newest are Tier 4, but the blocks are the same on most. Just the electronics, fuel, turbos, inter coolers, ect. would be different. I am not even a fan of tier 2. They will not run without computers and electrical flow. If you figure the minute fuel savings against the cost and added maintenance, the fact that lightning can destroy them, as can bad fuel there is no way they will work for me. Would rather find and older engine and have a excellent shop rebuild it properly, and have half the money in it! --- On Mon, 10/29/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 29, 2012, 8:57 AM   I see that most diesel engines now is Tier 4. Does it means that older used engines (same model) with Tier 2 should cost less? I would prefer engine with less/no electronics/electricity requirements if possible... As I understand, Max torque and Max fuel economy for most industrial diesels is around 1500-1800 RPM. This probably will be the best possible mark to check propeller calculations (boat reaching hull speed at this RPM) for best possible use of the engine. After reaching hull speed, it will require much more power input (good for short runs and loading the engine up to 100% for carbon clean-up?). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > The fuel, and more specifically, the governor's on generator specific engines are set up to run at a specific maximum rpm, and usually are set up with demand sensors to bring the generator up at a higher rpm, then bring it down sensing demand. Also, generator designers know that for most recreational users, that peak power demand will be seldom. If you are running electric stove, or microwave or even air condition, it will only be for part of the day, so demand will never be at continuous peak. Basically, if you look at JD's ratings closely, all they are doing is slowing the same engine down to be able to run it longer. You can take any 50(max)hp engine, which is desingned to give max power at 3000 rpm, for 40% duty,and slow it down to, say, 1800rpm, or 60% of its top rpm, and you get that  30HP, continuous duty engine. After all the ratings, that is the way that the engineers figure it. HP/cubic liter. The lower the HP per cubic liter, the longer the > engine will run at a time, and the longer it will last. Once you understand duty cycles, then you must add propping into that mix. You want to make max use out of your engine/prop combo, while allowing the engine to liesurely putt along and around 60%. Personally, i like a vehicle, be it boat, truck of tractor, to do the work i need done, or cruise the speed i want to go at around 50% capacity. Then, every now and then, i bring it up a tad, to say 80% for a little while, to make sure any carbon deposits are burned off. So, for a cruising boat, i want the prop, in normal water, to put enough torque on the engine to make 80, or, at most, 85% or the max rpm, be as high as the engine will rev before the torque from the prop will pull it down. That way, should you be at your boats max, which is less than the rated max, and the prop happen to cavitate and allow the engine to over rev, it still is in its rated range. Most new, Tier 2 and 3 engines will have > electric limiters to prevent over revving. Nice, but more electronics. I also like engines that run with no electricity at all!! Simple!!! > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29216|29183|2012-10-29 22:59:59|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Thanks for the information! I could not find what the difference between Tiers is. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Agreed. 16-1800 is the range i like on about all diesels i run. And yes, the newest are Tier 4, but the blocks are the same on most. Just the electronics, fuel, turbos, inter coolers, ect. would be different. I am not even a fan of tier 2. They will not run without computers and electrical flow. If you figure the minute fuel savings against the cost and added maintenance, the fact that lightning can destroy them, as can bad fuel there is no way they will work for me. Would rather find and older engine and have a excellent shop rebuild it properly, and have half the money in it! > | 29217|29183|2012-10-29 23:45:06|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|New marine diesels are pricy... So I started looking for used diesel engine from tractor. And yes, they are generally small (up to 25hp). So, I ran some estimates what small engine I can put in my 39ft, 14tonne displacement boat... Long story short, I can put engine which gives me 15Kw (20Hp) at needed RPM, and 4 blade 14-16" matching propeller @ 1200RPM to push the hull @ 7kn. To push it @ 8kn, I will need 42Kw (56Hp), similar but slightly different propeller @ 1500RPM. Well... It is nice to have big engine, but looks like not worth of troubles for 1kn speed increase. Agree, big engine is useful in rough conditions. But if hull resistance increases (wind, current, etc), small engine will push it @ 6kn instead of 7kn. Under bad conditions @5kn. Well... Compromise, compromise, compromise.... There is another problem with bigger than necessary engine - matching propeller for engine under normal and extreme conditions. It may be hard to find fixed propeller which work reasonably good in such wide range. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > I've had a Mitsubishi KB3 (a engine typically found in small tractors, > large garden mowers and gensets) in LC for the last 17 years. It was > sold as a Vetus M3.10. The Vetus stuff was junk and is all long gone > but the engine it's self has never given a days trouble in all these > years. It has no computers, only needs electrics for starting, is a > basic simple three cylinder rated for 22hp @ 3600. I normally run it > at about 2800 rpm and typically for an hour or two. I try never to run > it for less than an hour. I have also run it for three - four days > continuously a couple of times. Going up the Intra Coastal Waterway a > few years ago it was running everyday for at least 10 hours, I got the > impression that the engine just loved it. > > When first installed it was the normal setup, flexible mountings, wet > exhaust etc... and I had the normal troubles. I have subsequently > adopted Brent's philosophy and it is now solidly mounted, dry exhaust > and internal (keel tank) cooling and now do nothing but change > filters, adjust tappets and put in clean diesel. When I first bought > the engine, a mechanic told me to run it hard and I'll have no > trouble... and that is what I do. Having an 9ton boat, it has to run 2 > 800 for 5kts and 3200 for about six so it does indeed work hard. > > Some would say that 22hp is to small for a 9ton boat but this is a > sail boat and almost always when the seas are such that the engine > alone cannot make headway, adding some sail helps. I have only really > felt I wanted more power when maneuvering in confined quarters. 9 tons > takes a lot of power to get moving and to stop so it's full throttle > and then throttle back immediately and that has worked well so far. > > If I were to re power, I'd likely go for 36hp, and that indeed was > what I originally wanted but the price was right and I was not flush, > so that was it. > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 29218|29183|2012-10-30 01:06:05|Paul Wilson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I think that is a little unrealistic. The hp the engine can put out at 1200 rpm is not nearly as much as at full rpm so you may overload it with too big of a prop, even in calms. Stated another way, you need a big engine to give the hp and push that big prop at the lower rpm. Keep in mind that if you are battery charging with a large alternator on the engine, it can easily draw about 3 or 4 extra hp. I had a too big prop on my engine at first. I thought I was doing great by being able to go at hull speed at 1500 rpm in flat calms but in reality I was overloading the engine. I continually had black smoke on the transom and it bogged down when trying to push into head winds. Going to a smaller prop and higher revs (where there was more torque), the engine was much happier, and also used less fuel. You might find a diesel here: http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/ Cheers, Paul On 30/10/2012 4:45 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > New marine diesels are pricy... So I started looking for used diesel > engine from tractor. And yes, they are generally small (up to 25hp). > > So, I ran some estimates what small engine I can put in my 39ft, > 14tonne displacement boat... Long story short, I can put engine which > gives me 15Kw (20Hp) at needed RPM, and 4 blade 14-16" matching > propeller @ 1200RPM to push the hull @ 7kn. > > To push it @ 8kn, I will need 42Kw (56Hp), similar but slightly > different propeller @ 1500RPM. Well... It is nice to have big engine, > but looks like not worth of troubles for 1kn speed increase. > > Agree, big engine is useful in rough conditions. But if hull > resistance increases (wind, current, etc), small engine will push it @ > 6kn instead of 7kn. Under bad conditions @5kn. Well... Compromise, > compromise, compromise.... > > There is another problem with bigger than necessary engine - matching > propeller for engine under normal and extreme conditions. It may be > hard to find fixed propeller which work reasonably good in such wide > range. | 29219|29183|2012-10-30 01:27:40|Paul Wilson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Another idea.....you can look for a diesel that is used in a skid steer.....they should be about the right size. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skid-steer_loader Paul| 29220|29183|2012-10-30 01:29:50|Paul Wilson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Sorry, I meant the bigger ones :). On 30/10/2012 6:24 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > Another idea.....you can look for a diesel that is used in a skid > steer.....they should be about the right size. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skid-steer_loader > > Paul > > | 29221|29183|2012-10-30 04:24:29|Paul Thompson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I'm using a Hurth 150 with 3 to 1 reduction. 18x17 RH three blade Kiwiprop. Works great. Yes speed drops off in bumpy conditions but under those conditions I can generally sail so it's not to much of an issue for me. Paul Thompson On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:45 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > New marine diesels are pricy... So I started looking for used diesel engine from tractor. And yes, they are generally small (up to 25hp). > > So, I ran some estimates what small engine I can put in my 39ft, 14tonne displacement boat... Long story short, I can put engine which gives me 15Kw (20Hp) at needed RPM, and 4 blade 14-16" matching propeller @ 1200RPM to push the hull @ 7kn. > > To push it @ 8kn, I will need 42Kw (56Hp), similar but slightly different propeller @ 1500RPM. Well... It is nice to have big engine, but looks like not worth of troubles for 1kn speed increase. > > Agree, big engine is useful in rough conditions. But if hull resistance increases (wind, current, etc), small engine will push it @ 6kn instead of 7kn. Under bad conditions @5kn. Well... Compromise, compromise, compromise.... > > There is another problem with bigger than necessary engine - matching propeller for engine under normal and extreme conditions. It may be hard to find fixed propeller which work reasonably good in such wide range. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> I've had a Mitsubishi KB3 (a engine typically found in small tractors, >> large garden mowers and gensets) in LC for the last 17 years. It was >> sold as a Vetus M3.10. The Vetus stuff was junk and is all long gone >> but the engine it's self has never given a days trouble in all these >> years. It has no computers, only needs electrics for starting, is a >> basic simple three cylinder rated for 22hp @ 3600. I normally run it >> at about 2800 rpm and typically for an hour or two. I try never to run >> it for less than an hour. I have also run it for three - four days >> continuously a couple of times. Going up the Intra Coastal Waterway a >> few years ago it was running everyday for at least 10 hours, I got the >> impression that the engine just loved it. >> >> When first installed it was the normal setup, flexible mountings, wet >> exhaust etc... and I had the normal troubles. I have subsequently >> adopted Brent's philosophy and it is now solidly mounted, dry exhaust >> and internal (keel tank) cooling and now do nothing but change >> filters, adjust tappets and put in clean diesel. When I first bought >> the engine, a mechanic told me to run it hard and I'll have no >> trouble... and that is what I do. Having an 9ton boat, it has to run 2 >> 800 for 5kts and 3200 for about six so it does indeed work hard. >> >> Some would say that 22hp is to small for a 9ton boat but this is a >> sail boat and almost always when the seas are such that the engine >> alone cannot make headway, adding some sail helps. I have only really >> felt I wanted more power when maneuvering in confined quarters. 9 tons >> takes a lot of power to get moving and to stop so it's full throttle >> and then throttle back immediately and that has worked well so far. >> >> If I were to re power, I'd likely go for 36hp, and that indeed was >> what I originally wanted but the price was right and I was not flush, >> so that was it. >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Paul Thompson >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29222|29183|2012-10-30 07:35:41|Robert Jones|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|can you keel cool and dry stack, or are you going with wet? To get 20 continuously, without excessive wear, you will need to look for a 35 or 40hp. In that size, i love the Kubota's.You can get a tractor engine and, if going wet, add the heat exchanger and install it yourself. The most you should could have to do to accessorize that is to move the alterator brackets(possibly having to make some). I am a huge fan of keel cooling and dry exhausts, but if you have to go wet, then find someone with a similar engine set up and what the exactly what you need to do. Where are you located? --- On Mon, 10/29/12, wild_explorer . wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 29, 2012, 9:45 PM   New marine diesels are pricy... So I started looking for used diesel engine from tractor. And yes, they are generally small (up to 25hp). So, I ran some estimates what small engine I can put in my 39ft, 14tonne displacement boat... Long story short, I can put engine which gives me 15Kw (20Hp) at needed RPM, and 4 blade 14-16" matching propeller @ 1200RPM to push the hull @ 7kn. To push it @ 8kn, I will need 42Kw (56Hp), similar but slightly different propeller @ 1500RPM. Well... It is nice to have big engine, but looks like not worth of troubles for 1kn speed increase. Agree, big engine is useful in rough conditions. But if hull resistance increases (wind, current, etc), small engine will push it @ 6kn instead of 7kn. Under bad conditions @5kn. Well... Compromise, compromise, compromise.... There is another problem with bigger than necessary engine - matching propeller for engine under normal and extreme conditions. It may be hard to find fixed propeller which work reasonably good in such wide range. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > I've had a Mitsubishi KB3 (a engine typically found in small tractors, > large garden mowers and gensets) in LC for the last 17 years. It was > sold as a Vetus M3.10. The Vetus stuff was junk and is all long gone > but the engine it's self has never given a days trouble in all these > years. It has no computers, only needs electrics for starting, is a > basic simple three cylinder rated for 22hp @ 3600. I normally run it > at about 2800 rpm and typically for an hour or two. I try never to run > it for less than an hour. I have also run it for three - four days > continuously a couple of times. Going up the Intra Coastal Waterway a > few years ago it was running everyday for at least 10 hours, I got the > impression that the engine just loved it. > > When first installed it was the normal setup, flexible mountings, wet > exhaust etc... and I had the normal troubles. I have subsequently > adopted Brent's philosophy and it is now solidly mounted, dry exhaust > and internal (keel tank) cooling and now do nothing but change > filters, adjust tappets and put in clean diesel. When I first bought > the engine, a mechanic told me to run it hard and I'll have no > trouble... and that is what I do. Having an 9ton boat, it has to run 2 > 800 for 5kts and 3200 for about six so it does indeed work hard. > > Some would say that 22hp is to small for a 9ton boat but this is a > sail boat and almost always when the seas are such that the engine > alone cannot make headway, adding some sail helps. I have only really > felt I wanted more power when maneuvering in confined quarters. 9 tons > takes a lot of power to get moving and to stop so it's full throttle > and then throttle back immediately and that has worked well so far. > > If I were to re power, I'd likely go for 36hp, and that indeed was > what I originally wanted but the price was right and I was not flush, > so that was it. > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29223|29183|2012-10-30 07:37:51|Robert Jones|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Wild Explorer, you might also see if you can find a good, possibly used, folding, adjustable pitch prop. Will help get the most out of your engine and will adapt more readily to changing sea conditions --- On Mon, 10/29/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 29, 2012, 9:45 PM   New marine diesels are pricy... So I started looking for used diesel engine from tractor. And yes, they are generally small (up to 25hp). So, I ran some estimates what small engine I can put in my 39ft, 14tonne displacement boat... Long story short, I can put engine which gives me 15Kw (20Hp) at needed RPM, and 4 blade 14-16" matching propeller @ 1200RPM to push the hull @ 7kn. To push it @ 8kn, I will need 42Kw (56Hp), similar but slightly different propeller @ 1500RPM. Well... It is nice to have big engine, but looks like not worth of troubles for 1kn speed increase. Agree, big engine is useful in rough conditions. But if hull resistance increases (wind, current, etc), small engine will push it @ 6kn instead of 7kn. Under bad conditions @5kn. Well... Compromise, compromise, compromise.... There is another problem with bigger than necessary engine - matching propeller for engine under normal and extreme conditions. It may be hard to find fixed propeller which work reasonably good in such wide range. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > I've had a Mitsubishi KB3 (a engine typically found in small tractors, > large garden mowers and gensets) in LC for the last 17 years. It was > sold as a Vetus M3.10. The Vetus stuff was junk and is all long gone > but the engine it's self has never given a days trouble in all these > years. It has no computers, only needs electrics for starting, is a > basic simple three cylinder rated for 22hp @ 3600. I normally run it > at about 2800 rpm and typically for an hour or two. I try never to run > it for less than an hour. I have also run it for three - four days > continuously a couple of times. Going up the Intra Coastal Waterway a > few years ago it was running everyday for at least 10 hours, I got the > impression that the engine just loved it. > > When first installed it was the normal setup, flexible mountings, wet > exhaust etc... and I had the normal troubles. I have subsequently > adopted Brent's philosophy and it is now solidly mounted, dry exhaust > and internal (keel tank) cooling and now do nothing but change > filters, adjust tappets and put in clean diesel. When I first bought > the engine, a mechanic told me to run it hard and I'll have no > trouble... and that is what I do. Having an 9ton boat, it has to run 2 > 800 for 5kts and 3200 for about six so it does indeed work hard. > > Some would say that 22hp is to small for a 9ton boat but this is a > sail boat and almost always when the seas are such that the engine > alone cannot make headway, adding some sail helps. I have only really > felt I wanted more power when maneuvering in confined quarters. 9 tons > takes a lot of power to get moving and to stop so it's full throttle > and then throttle back immediately and that has worked well so far. > > If I were to re power, I'd likely go for 36hp, and that indeed was > what I originally wanted but the price was right and I was not flush, > so that was it. > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29224|29183|2012-10-30 07:48:12|Robert Jones|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Whatever your engine, prop combo, it needs to end up allowing the engine to rev up to at least 80% of it's max. On, say, an engine that would top out, by man recs, at 3400, i would have it go to 2600 under full load. When i say full load, with hydraulics, chargers, everything. This will allow it to get to around 2900 with prop only load. That is enhough. This engine speed will only be for short periods during cleanouts or inlet forges. I might even be happy with it topping out a little lower, around 2500, but i have watched diesel temps for years, and it is a habit, so will know to always watch temps under high torque loads. --- On Mon, 10/29/12, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 29, 2012, 11:03 PM   I think that is a little unrealistic. The hp the engine can put out at 1200 rpm is not nearly as much as at full rpm so you may overload it with too big of a prop, even in calms. Stated another way, you need a big engine to give the hp and push that big prop at the lower rpm. Keep in mind that if you are battery charging with a large alternator on the engine, it can easily draw about 3 or 4 extra hp. I had a too big prop on my engine at first. I thought I was doing great by being able to go at hull speed at 1500 rpm in flat calms but in reality I was overloading the engine. I continually had black smoke on the transom and it bogged down when trying to push into head winds. Going to a smaller prop and higher revs (where there was more torque), the engine was much happier, and also used less fuel. You might find a diesel here: http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/ Cheers, Paul On 30/10/2012 4:45 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > New marine diesels are pricy... So I started looking for used diesel > engine from tractor. And yes, they are generally small (up to 25hp). > > So, I ran some estimates what small engine I can put in my 39ft, > 14tonne displacement boat... Long story short, I can put engine which > gives me 15Kw (20Hp) at needed RPM, and 4 blade 14-16" matching > propeller @ 1200RPM to push the hull @ 7kn. > > To push it @ 8kn, I will need 42Kw (56Hp), similar but slightly > different propeller @ 1500RPM. Well... It is nice to have big engine, > but looks like not worth of troubles for 1kn speed increase. > > Agree, big engine is useful in rough conditions. But if hull > resistance increases (wind, current, etc), small engine will push it @ > 6kn instead of 7kn. Under bad conditions @5kn. Well... Compromise, > compromise, compromise.... > > There is another problem with bigger than necessary engine - matching > propeller for engine under normal and extreme conditions. It may be > hard to find fixed propeller which work reasonably good in such wide > range. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29225|29225|2012-10-30 08:18:49|MichaelF|Ive got two mast sections available|I have a mast off a catalina 27 with rigging and boom It was deck stepped and has a hinge plate it is right around 33ft. I also have another mast It was Keel Stepped it's about 49ft. and I hae a few booms laying around that fit it. Im located in Missouri so Im not sure if they will help anyone but I figured Id put them up and see if anyone could use them. Just make an offer my wife is bugging me to get rid of them. I also have the spreaders for both and they both have winches still mounted on them. Thanks, Michael| 29226|29183|2012-10-30 10:17:27|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|This is what is usually missed in matching propeller to the engine. In first step, we are not talking about engine's RPMs. You need to know resistance of the hull. You start from available Max power of the engine at rated RPM. Then you need to limit Maximum propeller size. Then you find the range of most efficient propellers and it gives you needed RPM's of the propeller. Then you need to find suitable transmission with needed reduction ratio. If you already have engine/transmission combo, you already limited to available RPMs, and you need to work with that range of RPMs and HP. So, if you need 1200 RPM's at the propeller, and you have 3600 RPM engine, you need 3:1 transmission. Engine will run at 3600 RPM giving you Max power. Again, propeller RPMs will not variate so much with this reduction: 1000-1200 propeller's RPMs with 3000-3600 engine's RPMs. And yes, it might be hard to match all components. For most propellers (especially for folded propellers) you need to contact manufacturer and give it what engine and transmission options you have. Usually manufacturer will give you available propeller options. 4 blade propeller needs different power than 2 blade prop (at the same RPM), different specs of the prop affect needed power and RPM, etc, etc, etc.... P.S. Thanks for the link. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I think that is a little unrealistic. The hp the engine can put out at > 1200 rpm is not nearly as much as at full rpm so you may overload it > with too big of a prop, even in calms. Stated another way, you need a > big engine to give the hp and push that big prop at the lower rpm. Keep > in mind that if you are battery charging with a large alternator on the > engine, it can easily draw about 3 or 4 extra hp. I had a too big prop > on my engine at first. I thought I was doing great by being able to go > at hull speed at 1500 rpm in flat calms but in reality I was overloading > the engine. I continually had black smoke on the transom and it bogged > down when trying to push into head winds. Going to a smaller prop and > higher revs (where there was more torque), the engine was much happier, > and also used less fuel. > > You might find a diesel here: > > http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/ > > Cheers, Paul > | 29227|29183|2012-10-30 10:28:53|ckhaun@juno.com|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I have a freshly rebuilt Isuzu 6BD that runs like a top, is tough as nails and needs no electrical connections. It came from an industrial compressor and would make an excellent boat motor. It has an SAE type bellhousing adapter that should be easy to hook up to a marine transmission. I would like to get $1500 US out of it. ____________________________________________________________ Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/508fe3e89f5cf63e858e9st01vuc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29228|29183|2012-10-30 10:29:47|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I will go with Brent's type of setup. Skeg cooling and dry exhaust. This way I can use standard industrial engine. Just need to make some basic "marinization" like oil draining hand pump connected to oil drain plug (I really like this option - much easier to change oil than regular way). I am in Oregon (Portland area) at this time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > > can you keel cool and dry stack, or are you going with wet? To get 20 continuously, without excessive wear, you will need to look for a 35 or 40hp. In that size, i love the Kubota's.You can get a tractor engine and, if going wet, add the heat exchanger and install it yourself. The most you should could have to do to accessorize that is to move the alterator brackets(possibly having to make some). I am a huge fan of keel cooling and dry exhausts, but if you have to go wet, then find someone with a similar engine set up and what the exactly what you need to do. Where are you located? > | 29229|29183|2012-10-30 11:01:15|Matt Malone|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Dumb question maybe... I understand how wet mufflers cool the exhaust, but how does one cool a dry marine exhaust ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 14:29:44 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine I will go with Brent's type of setup. Skeg cooling and dry exhaust. This way I can use standard industrial engine. Just need to make some basic "marinization" like oil draining hand pump connected to oil drain plug (I really like this option - much easier to change oil than regular way). I am in Oregon (Portland area) at this time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > > can you keel cool and dry stack, or are you going with wet? To get 20 continuously, without excessive wear, you will need to look for a 35 or 40hp. In that size, i love the Kubota's.You can get a tractor engine and, if going wet, add the heat exchanger and install it yourself. The most you should could have to do to accessorize that is to move the alterator brackets(possibly having to make some). I am a huge fan of keel cooling and dry exhausts, but if you have to go wet, then find someone with a similar engine set up and what the exactly what you need to do. Where are you located? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29230|29183|2012-10-30 13:25:12|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|You don't cool it...instead, you pipe it out of the hull (aft) thru a well insulated exhaust system (muffler advised). Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-30, at 8:01 AM, Matt Malone wrote: > > > Dumb question maybe... I understand how wet mufflers cool the exhaust, but how does one cool a dry marine exhaust ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 14:29:44 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will go with Brent's type of setup. Skeg cooling and dry exhaust. > > > > This way I can use standard industrial engine. Just need to make some basic "marinization" like oil draining hand pump connected to oil drain plug (I really like this option - much easier to change oil than regular way). > > > > I am in Oregon (Portland area) at this time. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > >> > >> > >> can you keel cool and dry stack, or are you going with wet? To get 20 continuously, without excessive wear, you will need to look for a 35 or 40hp. In that size, i love the Kubota's.You can get a tractor engine and, if going wet, add the heat exchanger and install it yourself. The most you should could have to do to accessorize that is to move the alterator brackets(possibly having to make some). I am a huge fan of keel cooling and dry exhausts, but if you have to go wet, then find someone with a similar engine set up and what the exactly what you need to do. Where are you located? > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 29231|29183|2012-10-30 13:57:07|Robert|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Not low rpm but normally aspirated; indirect injection; 47.7 continuous hp. http://www.klassenengine.com/PDF/Isuzu%20tier%202/4LE1.pdf --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was looking for small, low RPMs (<3K), 20-45 continuous Hp diesel engine with INDERECT fuel injection and naturally aspirated. > > But it looks like commercial marine engines start from 80HP and military engines have big displacement ( >3L). Most diesels now have direct injection and turbo (which i do not want). > > Kubota does not have marine engines. > > Are there others "bulletproof" old-style diesels still in production? > | 29232|29183|2012-10-30 13:57:19|Tom Pee|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Would you say then that irregardless of duty ratings engines should just run at low rpm (occasionly higher to clear out carbon buildup), say at about hp-peak torque.  ________________________________ From: Robert Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine   The fuel, and more specifically, the governor's on generator specific engines are set up to run at a specific maximum rpm, and usually are set up with demand sensors to bring the generator up at a higher rpm, then bring it down sensing demand. Also, generator designers know that for most recreational users, that peak power demand will be seldom. If you are running electric stove, or microwave or even air condition, it will only be for part of the day, so demand will never be at continuous peak. Basically, if you look at JD's ratings closely, all they are doing is slowing the same engine down to be able to run it longer. You can take any 50(max)hp engine, which is desingned to give max power at 3000 rpm, for 40% duty,and slow it down to, say, 1800rpm, or 60% of its top rpm, and you get that  30HP, continuous duty engine. After all the ratings, that is the way that the engineers figure it. HP/cubic liter. The lower the HP per cubic liter, the longer the engine will run at a time, and the longer it will last. Once you understand duty cycles, then you must add propping into that mix. You want to make max use out of your engine/prop combo, while allowing the engine to liesurely putt along and around 60%. Personally, i like a vehicle, be it boat, truck of tractor, to do the work i need done, or cruise the speed i want to go at around 50% capacity. Then, every now and then, i bring it up a tad, to say 80% for a little while, to make sure any carbon deposits are burned off. So, for a cruising boat, i want the prop, in normal water, to put enough torque on the engine to make 80, or, at most, 85% or the max rpm, be as high as the engine will rev before the torque from the prop will pull it down. That way, should you be at your boats max, which is less than the rated max, and the prop happen to cavitate and allow the engine to over rev, it still is in its rated range. Most new, Tier 2 and 3 engines will have electric limiters to prevent over revving. Nice, but more electronics. I also like engines that run with no electricity at all!! Simple!!! --- On Sun, 10/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 9:27 PM   Thanks for the link - interesting. Unfortunately, it is for bigger engines ( > 4L) I am trying to make propulsion system. I was asking about generator, because the same engine exist in 2 versions. I guess, that "generator" version may have different fuel delivery system (to keep more stable RPMs in 1800 range) vs "industrial". According to this link information, running engine continuously > 24hr will require engine with JD M1 rating. So, if you will run the engine for 72hr straight @ 100% power (let say storm), do you need engine with M1 rating? It is interesting, that JD "generator" rating has unlimited hours with <67% continuous power (kind of under M1 rating), but restricted to generator application only. Some used diesel engines may come from a generator... The question is: "Will be generator version suitable for boat propulsion system instead of using industrial version?" --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > I am attaching a flyer from John Deere. explaining what they, and other manufacturers cal. "M" ratings. Some brands use A, B, C, ect., and some use light, med, heavy and industrial and generator "rated". None of this means much unless you know how much of each day and year you intend to use an engine. This is called DUTY CYCLE. The fastest way to engine suicide is prolonged duty cycle abuse. The John Deere brochure gives a good idea of how, at least one brand, figures duty cycles. That being said, "maximum rated HP" is seldom the amount of HP that any engine will effectively put out on continuous duty., which, by all that is right and good should mean 24/7/365. Be watchful for yanmar, as theirs is not! So, for an engine that will run long stretches without rest(generator), at 30hp, continous, you would find that you would be purchasing an engine that, at maximum, would be around 50hp. All John Deere does to change thier ratings is to limit fuel by > omitting turbos, intercoolers, ect, and slow the rpms down thus allowing the engine to run longer, without building heat, and healthier. Complicated issue. Are you trying to build a generator or propulsion system? > > http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/zmags/engines_and_drivetrain/services_and_support/engine_literature/marine_selection_guide.html > > --- On Sun, 10/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 4:57 PM > > > Thanks for clarification on "marinization". > > > > Do you know what the difference could be between "generator" and "industrial" version of the same basic diesel engine (same displacement, bore, stroke, etc.)? It has slightly different weight & dimensions... The specs are given only for "industrial" version. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29233|29183|2012-10-30 13:57:36|Tom Pee|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Remember reading somewhere about one VW engine model of about 65hp  detuned to 45hp for small airplanes use, the result was a dependable-no problems engine. ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 11:01 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine I have installed a 1.9 l tdi( ahu) in my vw vanagon, it devellops much more hp than the 1.6 l that came in a rabbit, it should last much longer ( I hope... lol) Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mkriley48@... Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 06:31:41 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine                         The VW diesel is a converted gas engine that gave good service in a lightweight rabbit. When used in a vanagon at 5,000 lbs. it is a problematic limited life engine. Parts are hard to source now for the 1.6. and are mostly made in china and of low quality. auto use has a high proportion of coasting. How much does your boat weigh and how much does it coast? check out the diesel vanagon list mike                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29234|29183|2012-10-30 13:57:44|Tom Pee|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Mitsubishi makes good engines and have a popular 16hp/3600rpm on small tractor, the manufacture shows on tach guage that ideal speed at all gear ranges is 2700rpm. ________________________________ From: Paul Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine   I've had a Mitsubishi KB3 (a engine typically found in small tractors, large garden mowers and gensets) in LC for the last 17 years. It was sold as a Vetus M3.10. The Vetus stuff was junk and is all long gone but the engine it's self has never given a days trouble in all these years. It has no computers, only needs electrics for starting, is a basic simple three cylinder rated for 22hp @ 3600. I normally run it at about 2800 rpm and typically for an hour or two. I try never to run it for less than an hour. I have also run it for three - four days continuously a couple of times. Going up the Intra Coastal Waterway a few years ago it was running everyday for at least 10 hours, I got the impression that the engine just loved it. When first installed it was the normal setup, flexible mountings, wet exhaust etc... and I had the normal troubles. I have subsequently adopted Brent's philosophy and it is now solidly mounted, dry exhaust and internal (keel tank) cooling and now do nothing but change filters, adjust tappets and put in clean diesel. When I first bought the engine, a mechanic told me to run it hard and I'll have no trouble... and that is what I do. Having an 9ton boat, it has to run 2 800 for 5kts and 3200 for about six so it does indeed work hard. Some would say that 22hp is to small for a 9ton boat but this is a sail boat and almost always when the seas are such that the engine alone cannot make headway, adding some sail helps. I have only really felt I wanted more power when maneuvering in confined quarters. 9 tons takes a lot of power to get moving and to stop so it's full throttle and then throttle back immediately and that has worked well so far. If I were to re power, I'd likely go for 36hp, and that indeed was what I originally wanted but the price was right and I was not flush, so that was it. -- Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29235|29183|2012-10-30 13:57:54|Tom Pee|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|You dont cool dry exhaust, insulate the pipe or build a metal stack that surrounds the exhuast pipe and muffler which if exiting through the top can be also used for drying wet clothing. ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:01 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine Dumb question maybe...  I understand how wet mufflers cool the exhaust, but how does one cool a dry marine exhaust ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 14:29:44 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine                         I will go with Brent's type of setup. Skeg cooling and dry exhaust. This way I can use standard industrial engine. Just need to make some basic "marinization" like oil draining hand pump connected to oil drain plug (I really like this option - much easier to change oil than regular way). I am in Oregon (Portland area) at this time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > > can you keel cool and dry stack, or are you going with wet? To get 20 continuously, without excessive wear, you will need to look for a 35 or 40hp. In that size, i love the Kubota's.You can get a tractor engine and, if going wet, add the heat exchanger and install it yourself. The most you should could have to do to accessorize that is to move the alterator brackets(possibly having to make some). I am a huge fan of keel cooling and dry exhausts, but if you have to go wet, then find someone with a similar engine set up and what the exactly what you need to do. Where are you located? >                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29236|29190|2012-10-30 14:02:46|brentswain38|Re: Metal cutting Skilsaw blade|Standard, off the shelf Cambodian tire , cheapie version. Its let a guy with zero cutting torch experience cut beautiful machined edges. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > What kind of Skilsaw are you running it on? The metal cutting chop saws using toothed blades run much slower than wood miter saws. I suspect that these blades would run much better on a worm drive Skilsaw that turns much slower than the typical ones that are sold in most home stores. I have owned a couple of cold saws, the blade was 14” and turned at 40 rpm. It cut steel with no burr and a beautiful machined finish. However at 40 rpm the torque produced was enormous, the saw was bolted down and the steel was held in a very substantial vise that held it from both sides. Cold saw blades get resharpened, about $12 each time. When the teeth are too small to sharpen they charged $10 to remove all the teeth and grind in a whole new set. So the 14” blade could be resharpened and retoothed until it was about 10” in diameter. > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: brentswain38 > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 7:34 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Metal cutting skilsaw blade > > > I just had the opportunity to try out Princess Auto's metal cutting skillsaw blade. Wunnerful! Cuts 3/16th plate like cutting plywood, a machined edge. One blade will cut about 35 feet of plate before losing it's teeth, with zero distortion. At $40 per blade, it is well worth it, as one would use a fair bit of gas for that much cutting, and the saving in time makes it worth while. It is noisy, but gets some super smooth cuts done, with zero distortion. They seem to do better with 1/8th inch plate. With no distortion, they will speed up some parts, especially the building of decks, cabin, and wheelhouse. > They would be particularly handy for renovations on painted and foamed steel, with little chance of starting a fire. > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29237|29183|2012-10-30 14:09:43|Paul Wilson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|That was probably a horizontally opposed VW Beetle engine. Air cooled, gasoline, light weight. They do the same now with Subaru engines. Not sure about the detuning though....usually on aircraft they go as fast as they can with them. They want the max hp for the weight that they can get. On 30/10/2012 5:00 a.m., Tom Pee wrote: > Remember reading somewhere about one VW engine model of about 65hp > detuned to 45hp for small airplanes use, the result was > a dependable-no problems engine. | 29238|29183|2012-10-30 14:15:48|Paul Wilson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I never would have thought you could push a prop that big but then again, I didn't realize you had a 3 to 1 gearbox. How do you like the Kiwiprop? Any problems with it? Cheers, Paul On 30/10/2012 9:24 p.m., Paul Thompson wrote: > I'm using a Hurth 150 with 3 to 1 reduction. 18x17 RH three blade > Kiwiprop. Works great. Yes speed drops off in bumpy conditions but > under those conditions I can generally sail so it's not to much of an > issue for me. > > Paul Thompson | 29239|29190|2012-10-30 14:16:02|Matt Malone|Re: Metal cutting Skilsaw blade|I use abrasive cut off disks from C-T and Princess Auto for cutting all my metal. A plasma torch would be really nice, but they do great. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:02:43 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal cutting Skilsaw blade Standard, off the shelf Cambodian tire , cheapie version. Its let a guy with zero cutting torch experience cut beautiful machined edges. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > What kind of Skilsaw are you running it on? The metal cutting chop saws using toothed blades run much slower than wood miter saws. I suspect that these blades would run much better on a worm drive Skilsaw that turns much slower than the typical ones that are sold in most home stores. I have owned a couple of cold saws, the blade was 14��� and turned at 40 rpm. It cut steel with no burr and a beautiful machined finish. However at 40 rpm the torque produced was enormous, the saw was bolted down and the steel was held in a very substantial vise that held it from both sides. Cold saw blades get resharpened, about $12 each time. When the teeth are too small to sharpen they charged $10 to remove all the teeth and grind in a whole new set. So the 14��� blade could be resharpened and retoothed until it was about 10��� in diameter. > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: brentswain38 > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 7:34 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Metal cutting skilsaw blade > > > I just had the opportunity to try out Princess Auto's metal cutting skillsaw blade. Wunnerful! Cuts 3/16th plate like cutting plywood, a machined edge. One blade will cut about 35 feet of plate before losing it's teeth, with zero distortion. At $40 per blade, it is well worth it, as one would use a fair bit of gas for that much cutting, and the saving in time makes it worth while. It is noisy, but gets some super smooth cuts done, with zero distortion. They seem to do better with 1/8th inch plate. With no distortion, they will speed up some parts, especially the building of decks, cabin, and wheelhouse. > They would be particularly handy for renovations on painted and foamed steel, with little chance of starting a fire. > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29240|29183|2012-10-30 14:51:42|Paul Thompson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|That's pretty close to where I have always run mine 2 800 rpm. Paul Thompson On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Tom Pee wrote: > Mitsubishi makes good engines and have a popular 16hp/3600rpm on small tractor, the manufacture shows on tach guage that ideal speed at all gear ranges is 2700rpm. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Thompson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 3:38 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > > > I've had a Mitsubishi KB3 (a engine typically found in small tractors, > large garden mowers and gensets) in LC for the last 17 years. It was > sold as a Vetus M3.10. The Vetus stuff was junk and is all long gone > but the engine it's self has never given a days trouble in all these > years. It has no computers, only needs electrics for starting, is a > basic simple three cylinder rated for 22hp @ 3600. I normally run it > at about 2800 rpm and typically for an hour or two. I try never to run > it for less than an hour. I have also run it for three - four days > continuously a couple of times. Going up the Intra Coastal Waterway a > few years ago it was running everyday for at least 10 hours, I got the > impression that the engine just loved it. > > When first installed it was the normal setup, flexible mountings, wet > exhaust etc... and I had the normal troubles. I have subsequently > adopted Brent's philosophy and it is now solidly mounted, dry exhaust > and internal (keel tank) cooling and now do nothing but change > filters, adjust tappets and put in clean diesel. When I first bought > the engine, a mechanic told me to run it hard and I'll have no > trouble... and that is what I do. Having an 9ton boat, it has to run 2 > 800 for 5kts and 3200 for about six so it does indeed work hard. > > Some would say that 22hp is to small for a 9ton boat but this is a > sail boat and almost always when the seas are such that the engine > alone cannot make headway, adding some sail helps. I have only really > felt I wanted more power when maneuvering in confined quarters. 9 tons > takes a lot of power to get moving and to stop so it's full throttle > and then throttle back immediately and that has worked well so far. > > If I were to re power, I'd likely go for 36hp, and that indeed was > what I originally wanted but the price was right and I was not flush, > so that was it. > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29241|29183|2012-10-30 15:10:05|Robert Jones|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I am totally on board with your idea. That opens up many engines, the Kubota still being my personal favorite! The oil pumpout is a simple ad and basically all you need is to match a transmission, fit down the water entry and exit into your keel(skeg) lines and possible external reservoir, hook up throttle and, guage sensors, exhaust to muffler system, and go. If i were doing this, i would run an external oil reservoir with keel(skeg) cooling for it also, and possibly even the same for the transmission. The more cooling, the longer the life of each component. Also, be sure to leave the thermostat in so the engine will come up to proper operating temp as fast as possible. Engines tend to wear when forced to torque before temp comes up. Too hot also wears. The idea is to have a stable temp around 190deg. --- On Tue, 10/30/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2012, 8:29 AM   I will go with Brent's type of setup. Skeg cooling and dry exhaust. This way I can use standard industrial engine. Just need to make some basic "marinization" like oil draining hand pump connected to oil drain plug (I really like this option - much easier to change oil than regular way). I am in Oregon (Portland area) at this time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > > can you keel cool and dry stack, or are you going with wet? To get 20 continuously, without excessive wear, you will need to look for a 35 or 40hp. In that size, i love the Kubota's.You can get a tractor engine and, if going wet, add the heat exchanger and install it yourself. The most you should could have to do to accessorize that is to move the alterator brackets(possibly having to make some). I am a huge fan of keel cooling and dry exhausts, but if you have to go wet, then find someone with a similar engine set up and what the exactly what you need to do. Where are you located? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29242|29183|2012-10-30 15:16:27|Robert Jones|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|running low rpm and getting the proper torque and speed to the propeller is the goal, so the answer is yes. But, in doing that, you are causing the duty rating to become continuous, or M!, which is the goal! Although, there is a heat multiplication figure involved, simply put, an engine has so many rpms in it's life. If you run a 3600 rpm engine at 1200 rpms, it will last, at least, 3 times longer. But, when you figure that velocity and heat also wear components, it could last far longer running the low rpms. --- On Mon, 10/29/12, Tom Pee wrote: From: Tom Pee Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Monday, October 29, 2012, 9:49 AM   Would you say then that irregardless of duty ratings engines should just run at low rpm (occasionly higher to clear out carbon buildup), say at about hp-peak torque.  ________________________________ From: Robert Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine   The fuel, and more specifically, the governor's on generator specific engines are set up to run at a specific maximum rpm, and usually are set up with demand sensors to bring the generator up at a higher rpm, then bring it down sensing demand. Also, generator designers know that for most recreational users, that peak power demand will be seldom. If you are running electric stove, or microwave or even air condition, it will only be for part of the day, so demand will never be at continuous peak. Basically, if you look at JD's ratings closely, all they are doing is slowing the same engine down to be able to run it longer. You can take any 50(max)hp engine, which is desingned to give max power at 3000 rpm, for 40% duty,and slow it down to, say, 1800rpm, or 60% of its top rpm, and you get that  30HP, continuous duty engine. After all the ratings, that is the way that the engineers figure it. HP/cubic liter. The lower the HP per cubic liter, the longer the engine will run at a time, and the longer it will last. Once you understand duty cycles, then you must add propping into that mix. You want to make max use out of your engine/prop combo, while allowing the engine to liesurely putt along and around 60%. Personally, i like a vehicle, be it boat, truck of tractor, to do the work i need done, or cruise the speed i want to go at around 50% capacity. Then, every now and then, i bring it up a tad, to say 80% for a little while, to make sure any carbon deposits are burned off. So, for a cruising boat, i want the prop, in normal water, to put enough torque on the engine to make 80, or, at most, 85% or the max rpm, be as high as the engine will rev before the torque from the prop will pull it down. That way, should you be at your boats max, which is less than the rated max, and the prop happen to cavitate and allow the engine to over rev, it still is in its rated range. Most new, Tier 2 and 3 engines will have electric limiters to prevent over revving. Nice, but more electronics. I also like engines that run with no electricity at all!! Simple!!! --- On Sun, 10/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 9:27 PM   Thanks for the link - interesting. Unfortunately, it is for bigger engines ( > 4L) I am trying to make propulsion system. I was asking about generator, because the same engine exist in 2 versions. I guess, that "generator" version may have different fuel delivery system (to keep more stable RPMs in 1800 range) vs "industrial". According to this link information, running engine continuously > 24hr will require engine with JD M1 rating. So, if you will run the engine for 72hr straight @ 100% power (let say storm), do you need engine with M1 rating? It is interesting, that JD "generator" rating has unlimited hours with <67% continuous power (kind of under M1 rating), but restricted to generator application only. Some used diesel engines may come from a generator... The question is: "Will be generator version suitable for boat propulsion system instead of using industrial version?" --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > I am attaching a flyer from John Deere. explaining what they, and other manufacturers cal. "M" ratings. Some brands use A, B, C, ect., and some use light, med, heavy and industrial and generator "rated". None of this means much unless you know how much of each day and year you intend to use an engine. This is called DUTY CYCLE. The fastest way to engine suicide is prolonged duty cycle abuse. The John Deere brochure gives a good idea of how, at least one brand, figures duty cycles. That being said, "maximum rated HP" is seldom the amount of HP that any engine will effectively put out on continuous duty., which, by all that is right and good should mean 24/7/365. Be watchful for yanmar, as theirs is not! So, for an engine that will run long stretches without rest(generator), at 30hp, continous, you would find that you would be purchasing an engine that, at maximum, would be around 50hp. All John Deere does to change thier ratings is to limit fuel by > omitting turbos, intercoolers, ect, and slow the rpms down thus allowing the engine to run longer, without building heat, and healthier. Complicated issue. Are you trying to build a generator or propulsion system? > > http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/zmags/engines_and_drivetrain/services_and_support/engine_literature/marine_selection_guide.html > > --- On Sun, 10/28/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 4:57 PM > > > Thanks for clarification on "marinization". > > > > Do you know what the difference could be between "generator" and "industrial" version of the same basic diesel engine (same displacement, bore, stroke, etc.)? It has slightly different weight & dimensions... The specs are given only for "industrial" version. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29243|29183|2012-10-30 15:45:15|Paul Thompson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Hi Paul, Put the Kiwiprop on 4 years ago and I am very happy with it (before it was a fixed three blade same size). Astern is very, very much improved and since LC is a full keeler that alone would have justified the change. Under sail, average speed has gone up 1 kt (from 4.5 to 5.5) under power speed has remained the same. Have not had any mechanical issues. Three to one gearbox ratio was chosen to keep rpm at the prop to under 1000 rpm (@ cruising range 2500 to 2800 rpm) and of cause it enables a small engine to turn a big prop. I played around quite a bit with prop sizes before settling on what I have. It seems over pitched but the boat seems to like it. I tried 15" pitch but immediately lost half a knot. Since I can pull just under 3 600 rpm (just a bit more than 3500 rpm) and only get black smoke after 3 400 rpm I'd say the engine seems to be happy. The prop is a full meter under the water and I'd say that also helps. Paul Thompson On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > I never would have thought you could push a prop that big but then > again, I didn't realize you had a 3 to 1 gearbox. How do you like the > Kiwiprop? Any problems with it? > > Cheers, Paul > > On 30/10/2012 9:24 p.m., Paul Thompson wrote: >> I'm using a Hurth 150 with 3 to 1 reduction. 18x17 RH three blade >> Kiwiprop. Works great. Yes speed drops off in bumpy conditions but >> under those conditions I can generally sail so it's not to much of an >> issue for me. >> >> Paul Thompson > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29244|29183|2012-10-30 16:45:48|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|That exactly what is recommended for designing boat's propulsion system: - Choose optimal propeller FIRST for your hull/boat. - Then figure out engine/gearbox options based on what RPM and power is needed to be delivered to the prop. Simply going with engine's HP is meaningless. It is OK for general idea what is "average" engine you can put in a boat, but that about it... If you have too much power and RPMs, propeller more likely will cavitate and might be destroyed. What I like about small marine engines websites, that it gives you the information what transmission will fit the engine, and generally what engine you can use (or look for): Klassen - Isuzu (Suzie marine), Mitsubishi (Suzie marine) Beta Marine - Kubota With other engines you may have troubles to fit/find marine transmission. If space in engine compartment on the boat was not limited, the bigger engine would be better (to run @ 15-2000 RPMs). I was surprised, but bigger engine could give better total (per hour) fuel economy and HP @ 1800 rpm than smaller engine @ Max RPM. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > I played around quite a bit with prop > sizes before settling on what I have. It seems over pitched but the > boat seems to like it. I tried 15" pitch but immediately lost half a > knot. Since I can pull just under 3 600 rpm (just a bit more than 3500 > rpm) and only get black smoke after 3 400 rpm I'd say the engine seems > to be happy. > > The prop is a full meter under the water and I'd say that also helps. > > Paul Thompson > > > On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I never would have thought you could push a prop that big but then > > again, I didn't realize you had a 3 to 1 gearbox. How do you like the > > Kiwiprop? Any problems with it? > > > > Cheers, Paul | 29245|29183|2012-10-30 20:59:55|M.J. Malone|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|The procedure Wild suggests, HP, propeller, transmission.... What I would add is, draw a hp vs prop rpm graph, and make sure your engine hp vs (rpm/transmission ratio) graph is higher. I would like it a measure higher if I were using an old or repurposed engine. Call it leeway, factor of safety, whatever. If I were talking gas engine, I could give a few reduced horsepower scenarios, on a diesel, perhaps a bad injector. I would not want one small problem compounding another leading to engine overheat. Cutting the demand on an engine also greatly extends wear life. I am at a stage where, I really do not want to do things twice more if I can do it once. I would rather carry an extra 60 pounds of cast iron, if all other considerations are no more complicated. Matt wild_explorer wrote: That exactly what is recommended for designing boat's propulsion system: - Choose optimal propeller FIRST for your hull/boat. - Then figure out engine/gearbox options based on what RPM and power is needed to be delivered to the prop. Simply going with engine's HP is meaningless. It is OK for general idea what is "average" engine you can put in a boat, but that about it... If you have too much power and RPMs, propeller more likely will cavitate and might be destroyed. What I like about small marine engines websites, that it gives you the information what transmission will fit the engine, and generally what engine you can use (or look for): Klassen - Isuzu (Suzie marine), Mitsubishi (Suzie marine) Beta Marine - Kubota With other engines you may have troubles to fit/find marine transmission. If space in engine compartment on the boat was not limited, the bigger engine would be better (to run @ 15-2000 RPMs). I was surprised, but bigger engine could give better total (per hour) fuel economy and HP @ 1800 rpm than smaller engine @ Max RPM. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > I played around quite a bit with prop > sizes before settling on what I have. It seems over pitched but the > boat seems to like it. I tried 15" pitch but immediately lost half a > knot. Since I can pull just under 3 600 rpm (just a bit more than 3500 > rpm) and only get black smoke after 3 400 rpm I'd say the engine seems > to be happy. > > The prop is a full meter under the water and I'd say that also helps. > > Paul Thompson > > > On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I never would have thought you could push a prop that big but then > > again, I didn't realize you had a 3 to 1 gearbox. How do you like the > > Kiwiprop? Any problems with it? > > > > Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29246|29183|2012-10-30 22:32:25|brentswain38|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Kubotas also have the advantage of having a decompression lever. The bigger the reduction, the bigger the prop, and the greater the drag under sail, unless you have a feathering prop, expensive to damage around BC logs, but good elsewhere. 2 to 1 or 2 1/2 to 1 are good compromises. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > I am totally on board with your idea. That opens up many engines, the Kubota still being my personal favorite! The oil pumpout is a simple ad and basically all you need is to match a transmission, fit down the water entry and exit into your keel(skeg) lines and possible external reservoir, hook up throttle and, guage sensors, exhaust to muffler system, and go. If i were doing this, i would run an external oil reservoir with keel(skeg) cooling for it also, and possibly even the same for the transmission. The more cooling, the longer the life of each component. Also, be sure to leave the thermostat in so the engine will come up to proper operating temp as fast as possible. Engines tend to wear when forced to torque before temp comes up. Too hot also wears. The idea is to have a stable temp around 190deg. > > --- On Tue, 10/30/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2012, 8:29 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > I will go with Brent's type of setup. Skeg cooling and dry exhaust. > > > > This way I can use standard industrial engine. Just need to make some basic "marinization" like oil draining hand pump connected to oil drain plug (I really like this option - much easier to change oil than regular way). > > > > I am in Oregon (Portland area) at this time. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > > > > > > > > can you keel cool and dry stack, or are you going with wet? To get 20 continuously, without excessive wear, you will need to look for a 35 or 40hp. In that size, i love the Kubota's.You can get a tractor engine and, if going wet, add the heat exchanger and install it yourself. The most you should could have to do to accessorize that is to move the alterator brackets(possibly having to make some). I am a huge fan of keel cooling and dry exhausts, but if you have to go wet, then find someone with a similar engine set up and what the exactly what you need to do. Where are you located? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29247|29183|2012-10-30 22:34:24|brentswain38|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I once hooked the drain on an engine to a tube leading thru the engine front web, to a ball valve. Made draining the oil easy. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Kubotas also have the advantage of having a decompression lever. > The bigger the reduction, the bigger the prop, and the greater the drag under sail, unless you have a feathering prop, expensive to damage around BC logs, but good elsewhere. > 2 to 1 or 2 1/2 to 1 are good compromises. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > > > I am totally on board with your idea. That opens up many engines, the Kubota still being my personal favorite! The oil pumpout is a simple ad and basically all you need is to match a transmission, fit down the water entry and exit into your keel(skeg) lines and possible external reservoir, hook up throttle and, guage sensors, exhaust to muffler system, and go. If i were doing this, i would run an external oil reservoir with keel(skeg) cooling for it also, and possibly even the same for the transmission. The more cooling, the longer the life of each component. Also, be sure to leave the thermostat in so the engine will come up to proper operating temp as fast as possible. Engines tend to wear when forced to torque before temp comes up. Too hot also wears. The idea is to have a stable temp around 190deg. > > > > --- On Tue, 10/30/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > > > From: wild_explorer > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2012, 8:29 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will go with Brent's type of setup. Skeg cooling and dry exhaust. > > > > > > > > This way I can use standard industrial engine. Just need to make some basic "marinization" like oil draining hand pump connected to oil drain plug (I really like this option - much easier to change oil than regular way). > > > > > > > > I am in Oregon (Portland area) at this time. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can you keel cool and dry stack, or are you going with wet? To get 20 continuously, without excessive wear, you will need to look for a 35 or 40hp. In that size, i love the Kubota's.You can get a tractor engine and, if going wet, add the heat exchanger and install it yourself. The most you should could have to do to accessorize that is to move the alterator brackets(possibly having to make some). I am a huge fan of keel cooling and dry exhausts, but if you have to go wet, then find someone with a similar engine set up and what the exactly what you need to do. Where are you located? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 29248|29183|2012-10-31 00:51:25|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I will probably estimate 4 Kubota's engines and see how it could be adopted for my application - boat. Starting from a propeller for my boat and see how these engines can drive the prop. More likely, the results could be used for Brent's 36 & 40 footer as well. It looks like there is enough information and availability of used engines with advertized specs (intermittent Hp): D722 - 3cyl, 20Hp @ 3600rpm V1505 - 4cyl, 35Hp @ 3000rpm D1703 - 4cyl, 35Hp @ 2800rpm V2203 - 4cyl, 48Hp @ 2800rpm It should cover wide range of available used engines (even small tractor engines) of other manufacturers (with some approximation). P.S. What is interesting that Beta Marine use these engines too, except D1703 (Beta 20, Beta 35 and Beta 50)| 29249|29183|2012-10-31 08:34:20|Robert Jones|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|    Brent said "I once hooked the drain on an engine to a tube leading thru the engine front web, to a ball valve. Made draining the oil easy. "Robert adds "Great idea, and not hard to do! Can even be done with copper with pump in line." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29250|29183|2012-10-31 11:35:32|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Don't think I would use copper on the oil pan (sump). The engine vibration will crack the tube and crankcase oil will leak into the sump. Good bye engine. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-31, at 5:34 AM, Robert Jones wrote: > > > > > Brent said "I once hooked the drain on an engine to a tube leading thru the engine front web, to a ball valve. Made draining the oil easy. "Robert adds "Great idea, and not hard to do! Can even be done with copper with pump in line." > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29251|26895|2012-10-31 13:22:09|badpirate36|Re: ALU BS36|jhess314, I bought the boat as a bare hull, so I am unable to give you a cost estimate of the aluminium. As far as the sand blasting and painting, I just blasted the interior last week, epoxy coating this week. Although it's true I don't plan to paint the topsides, I am told if you head down to the tropic's you must paint the topsides white. The only real advantage to aluminium over steel is the weight savings. that and trading rust for corrosion /.o) Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > BadPirate, > Would you mind giving us an estimate of the cost of your aluminum hull. Your costs for aluminum will be higher than for steel, but you won't have to sandblast and paint to the same extent as a steel boat has to. > > And maybe Brent or other steel boat builders could give comparable costs for a steel BS-36. On second thought, NOT Brent!! He's too good of a scrounger! Nobody else can build as cheaply as him :) > > Thanks, John > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > Erkan(builder), estimated 12,500lbs (bare hull) which was later confirmed when launched. The fuel and water tanks are now full or almost full and the boat is still four inches shy of her lines. After asking a few other bs36 owners, I believe the mast rigging and interior should come out to approx 3000lbs or 3 inches. leaving an inch for hoarding, after all I plan on retiring on-board /.o) > > Sounds like a great party Haidan! 34 people 3500lbs... hmmmm, I did the math, that's haidan and 33 bikinni babes, hahaha I'll definetly be raft'in up for the next party. It's been a year since you posted some pic's, how's your interior comming along? I'm just starting on my interior and would sure appreciate some more pic's. > > > | 29252|26895|2012-10-31 13:56:49|Paul Wilson|Re: ALU BS36|Many are many alloy boats with unpainted topsides in the tropics. The French love to do them this way. They are not too hot if the hull is properly insulated. Paul On 1/11/2012 6:22 a.m., badpirate36 wrote: > jhess314, > I bought the boat as a bare hull, so I am unable to give you a cost > estimate of the aluminium. As far as the sand blasting and painting, I > just blasted the interior last week, epoxy coating this week. Although > it's true I don't plan to paint the topsides, I am told if you head > down to the tropic's you must paint the topsides white. The only real > advantage to aluminium over steel is the weight savings. that and > trading rust for corrosion /.o) > Tom | 29253|29190|2012-10-31 17:08:42|Darren Bos|Re: Metal cutting Skilsaw blade|While you can run the metal cutting blades on a normal skillsaw, a metal cutting circular saw isn't much more of an investment and has a few benefits. It turns at lower rpm (3500) so the blades last longer, and the metal cutting versions have chip collectors that help reduce the number of hot chips that strike you. Recently, I was doing a project using both my wood and metal skilsaws at the same time and grabbed the wood one by mistake and did a stretch of steel. The shower of hot chips was noticeable compared to negligible with the metal saw. I also killed (sheared all the carbide off) the wood blade in one cut. I bought the cheap metal-cutting skillsaw from Princess Auto a few years back and it has held up well, it is definitely heavier built than my regular woodcutting circular saw. Princess Auto seems to put the saw on sale a couple times a year although they no longer carry the same version I bought. The version that Harbour Freight sells for $90-$100 looks to be the same as the one I have. For $100 its a great tool (for some uses) for a nice clean straight cut that is ready to weld. http://www.harborfreight.com/7-1-4-quarter-inch-metal-cutting-circular-saw-8897.html Darren At 11:02 AM 30/10/2012, you wrote: > > >Standard, off the shelf Cambodian tire , cheapie >version. Its let a guy with zero cutting torch >experience cut beautiful machined edges. > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >"Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Brent, > > What kind of Skilsaw are you running it on? > The metal cutting chop saws using toothed > blades run much slower than wood miter saws. I > suspect that these blades would run much better > on a worm drive Skilsaw that turns much slower > than the typical ones that are sold in most > home stores. I have owned a couple of cold > saws, the blade was 14” and turned at 40 rpm. > It cut steel with no burr and a beautiful > machined finish. However at 40 rpm the torque > produced was enormous, the saw was bolted down > and the steel was held in a very substantial > vise that held it from both sides. Cold saw > blades get resharpened, about $12 each time. > When the teeth are too small to sharpen they > charged $10 to remove all the teeth and grind > in a whole new set. So the 14” blade could be > resharpened and retoothed until it was about 10” in diameter. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 7:34 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Metal cutting skilsaw blade > > > > > > I just had the opportunity to try out > Princess Auto's metal cutting skillsaw blade. > Wunnerful! Cuts 3/16th plate like cutting > plywood, a machined edge. One blade will cut > about 35 feet of plate before losing it's > teeth, with zero distortion. At $40 per blade, > it is well worth it, as one would use a fair > bit of gas for that much cutting, and the > saving in time makes it worth while. It is > noisy, but gets some super smooth cuts done, > with zero distortion. They seem to do better > with 1/8th inch plate. With no distortion, they > will speed up some parts, especially the > building of decks, cabin, and wheelhouse. > > They would be particularly handy for > renovations on painted and foamed steel, with > little chance of starting a fire. > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > Have you read my blog? > http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29254|26895|2012-10-31 18:30:36|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|I had to paint the back of my aluminium dinghy white , in the tropics, so I wouldn't burn my feet on it, when it had been in the sun for a while. Friends living on a 29 ft aluminium boat in Tonga, took til 3AM to get to sleep, as it took that long for the boat to cool down enough. You can use any cheap white paint on an aluminium boat, as it is not for protection, only coolth. You should first wash the surface with vinegar then water, to clean it for a better bond. Sandblasting is the only way to get a really good bond, but such a bond is not really that important. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Many are many alloy boats with unpainted topsides in the tropics. The > French love to do them this way. They are not too hot if the hull is > properly insulated. Paul > > On 1/11/2012 6:22 a.m., badpirate36 wrote: > > jhess314, > > I bought the boat as a bare hull, so I am unable to give you a cost > > estimate of the aluminium. As far as the sand blasting and painting, I > > just blasted the interior last week, epoxy coating this week. Although > > it's true I don't plan to paint the topsides, I am told if you head > > down to the tropic's you must paint the topsides white. The only real > > advantage to aluminium over steel is the weight savings. that and > > trading rust for corrosion /.o) > > Tom > | 29255|29183|2012-10-31 18:33:13|brentswain38|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Copper breaks down with metal fatigue. Wire reinforced hydraulic hose would be better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Brent said "I once hooked the drain on an engine to a tube leading thru the engine front web, to a ball valve. Made draining the oil easy. "Robert adds "Great idea, and not hard to do! Can even be done with copper with pump in line." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29256|29183|2012-10-31 18:36:45|brentswain38|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Winston would find an engine , weld up a bell housing, then give both to a machinist, to match them up, for $200. A water cooled exhaust manifold is easy to weld up, for anything but a VW diesel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > That exactly what is recommended for designing boat's propulsion system: > - Choose optimal propeller FIRST for your hull/boat. > - Then figure out engine/gearbox options based on what RPM and power is needed to be delivered to the prop. > > Simply going with engine's HP is meaningless. It is OK for general idea what is "average" engine you can put in a boat, but that about it... If you have too much power and RPMs, propeller more likely will cavitate and might be destroyed. > > What I like about small marine engines websites, that it gives you the information what transmission will fit the engine, and generally what engine you can use (or look for): > > Klassen - Isuzu (Suzie marine), Mitsubishi (Suzie marine) > Beta Marine - Kubota > > With other engines you may have troubles to fit/find marine transmission. > > If space in engine compartment on the boat was not limited, the bigger engine would be better (to run @ 15-2000 RPMs). I was surprised, but bigger engine could give better total (per hour) fuel economy and HP @ 1800 rpm than smaller engine @ Max RPM. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > I played around quite a bit with prop > > sizes before settling on what I have. It seems over pitched but the > > boat seems to like it. I tried 15" pitch but immediately lost half a > > knot. Since I can pull just under 3 600 rpm (just a bit more than 3500 > > rpm) and only get black smoke after 3 400 rpm I'd say the engine seems > > to be happy. > > > > The prop is a full meter under the water and I'd say that also helps. > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > I never would have thought you could push a prop that big but then > > > again, I didn't realize you had a 3 to 1 gearbox. How do you like the > > > Kiwiprop? Any problems with it? > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > | 29257|26895|2012-10-31 18:39:01|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|The aluminiunm for your 36 cost $20K, laying on the ground, at a time when steel for a 36 was around $4K. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > jhess314, > I bought the boat as a bare hull, so I am unable to give you a cost estimate of the aluminium. As far as the sand blasting and painting, I just blasted the interior last week, epoxy coating this week. Although it's true I don't plan to paint the topsides, I am told if you head down to the tropic's you must paint the topsides white. The only real advantage to aluminium over steel is the weight savings. that and trading rust for corrosion /.o) > Tom > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > > > BadPirate, > > Would you mind giving us an estimate of the cost of your aluminum hull. Your costs for aluminum will be higher than for steel, but you won't have to sandblast and paint to the same extent as a steel boat has to. > > > > And maybe Brent or other steel boat builders could give comparable costs for a steel BS-36. On second thought, NOT Brent!! He's too good of a scrounger! Nobody else can build as cheaply as him :) > > > > Thanks, John > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > Erkan(builder), estimated 12,500lbs (bare hull) which was later confirmed when launched. The fuel and water tanks are now full or almost full and the boat is still four inches shy of her lines. After asking a few other bs36 owners, I believe the mast rigging and interior should come out to approx 3000lbs or 3 inches. leaving an inch for hoarding, after all I plan on retiring on-board /.o) > > > Sounds like a great party Haidan! 34 people 3500lbs... hmmmm, I did the math, that's haidan and 33 bikinni babes, hahaha I'll definetly be raft'in up for the next party. It's been a year since you posted some pic's, how's your interior comming along? I'm just starting on my interior and would sure appreciate some more pic's. > > > > > > | 29258|29258|2012-10-31 18:44:10|martin demers|FW: Last Chance for 1st Issue|for anyone who it might interest! Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:32:39 -0400 From: bob@... To: mdemers2005@... Subject: Last Chance for 1st Issue The Last Chance to Subscribe and get the First Issue of Cruising Outpost! It just takes a minute, and $25 Okay, the staff is going nuts trying to get the first issue of Cruising Outpost to the printer. It is 180 pages of cruising excitement! Here is a look at the actual first cover. A great photo by Billy Black showing the fun and excitement of getting out there and doing it. Yes, we will have "back issues" available once it is printed. BUT this will be your only shot to get each and every issue directly from the printer. Only your postman will see it before you do!... Click here for more info Small print and other info: The "Founders Circle" will close on December 31st, 2012. This was an offer for folks who wanted to get in on the very ground floor of this new magazine, and actually made it possible for us to start the new Cruising Outpost. These folks will be getting Cruising Outpost for 5 years as well as getting a Founders Circle Sailing Hat and Burgee!! The Charter Membership will close on Dec 4th, 2013. Exactly one year after the first issue goes on sale. Charter members get both the print and on-line issues, as well as a Charter Members hat! There will be a "Xmas Gift Offer" very soon for people who would like to give a Cruising Outpost subscription as a gift. We are having 1,000 extra copies of issue #1 for this offering. It will include a gift card, and the first issue, so your friends will get every issue from #1. This offer will be available as soon as we get set-up with our subscription service. Hey, we are just starting. It's a lotta work! We will email you when this offer is set up! Visit our site: cruisingoutpost.com You can go to our Facebook Page Here Jody & I appreciate all of your support. Bob and Jody ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bob@... Jody@... Forward this to your sailing/cruising/adventurous friends so they can: & Forward this email This email was sent to mdemers2005@... by bob@... | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe� | Privacy Policy. Cruising Outpost | 909 Marina Village Parkway | Suite 351 | Alameda | CA | 94501 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29259|29183|2012-10-31 19:56:51|Robert Jones|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I stand correctly corrected on the copper, not sure what i was thinking, other than my wife brought the stomach flu home from the nursing home where she works, and i was typing in between heaves! --- On Wed, 10/31/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2012, 4:33 PM   Copper breaks down with metal fatigue. Wire reinforced hydraulic hose would be better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Brent said "I once hooked the drain on an engine to a tube leading thru the engine front web, to a ball valve. Made draining the oil easy. "Robert adds "Great idea, and not hard to do! Can even be done with copper with pump in line." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29260|26895|2012-10-31 20:21:13|Paul Wilson|Re: ALU BS36|I would paint the decks for sure.....Steve Dashew on his latest boats has everything unpainted and uses checker plate on the decks for non-skid. He said he must wear shoes. His boat was cool down below while in Fiji but I can't remember if he had an aircon running or not.....it is quite a high-end boat. On 1/11/2012 11:30 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > I had to paint the back of my aluminium dinghy white , in the tropics, > so I wouldn't burn my feet on it, when it had been in the sun for a while. > Friends living on a 29 ft aluminium boat in Tonga, took til 3AM to get > to sleep, as it took that long for the boat to cool down enough. > You can use any cheap white paint on an aluminium boat, as it is not > for protection, only coolth. You should first wash the surface with > vinegar then water, to clean it for a better bond. Sandblasting is the > only way to get a really good bond, but such a bond is not really that > important. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Many are many alloy boats with unpainted topsides in the tropics. The > > French love to do them this way. They are not too hot if the hull is > > properly insulated. Paul > > > > On 1/11/2012 6:22 a.m., badpirate36 wrote: > > > jhess314, > > > I bought the boat as a bare hull, so I am unable to give you a cost > > > estimate of the aluminium. As far as the sand blasting and > painting, I > > > just blasted the interior last week, epoxy coating this week. > Although > > > it's true I don't plan to paint the topsides, I am told if you head > > > down to the tropic's you must paint the topsides white. The only real > > > advantage to aluminium over steel is the weight savings. that and > > > trading rust for corrosion /.o) > > > Tom > > > > | 29261|29183|2012-11-01 10:47:50|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Good idea if you need diesel-driven welder to build your boat and use engine later for propulsion. You will have welder on board as well ;) Miller has diesels in engine driven welders: Mitsubishi S4L2 - in Big Blue 450 Duo CST (12kW) Mitsubishi S4L2, Kubota V1505, Cat C1.5 - in Big Blue 300 Pro (12kW) Kubota D722 - in Bobcat 250, Trailblazer 302 (11/9.5kW) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > I have the Klassen Suzi 37 which is a Mitsubishi S4L2. Used by Linclon for welding machines? Westerbeke also marinizes the same.  > | 29262|29183|2012-11-01 11:07:32|Robert Jones|Re: diesel engine/propulsion/welder|Good idea, but you might find that those welder/generators use the primary drive of the engine. Adding belt drive welder which can also be used as a charging system and generator can be added via belt or hydraulic drive after engine install. Although, you can actually weld straight off of a stock 12 volt alternator, it won't last long. However, there are ones on the market, developed for military and off-road use that are actually designed to replace the stock alternator and, when needed, plug welding rods into. This will leave the engine's primary drive free for propulsion! http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/index.html --- On Thu, 11/1/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 8:47 AM   Good idea if you need diesel-driven welder to build your boat and use engine later for propulsion. You will have welder on board as well ;) Miller has diesels in engine driven welders: Mitsubishi S4L2 - in Big Blue 450 Duo CST (12kW) Mitsubishi S4L2, Kubota V1505, Cat C1.5 - in Big Blue 300 Pro (12kW) Kubota D722 - in Bobcat 250, Trailblazer 302 (11/9.5kW) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > I have the Klassen Suzi 37 which is a Mitsubishi S4L2. Used by Linclon for welding machines? Westerbeke also marinizes the same.  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29263|26895|2012-11-01 12:07:06|jhess314|Re: ALU BS36|BadPirate, Why are you sandblasting and putting epoxy on the interior of an aluminum hull? I would have guessed that it could have been left bare, especially if you were insulating or lining the hull. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > jhess314, > I bought the boat as a bare hull, so I am unable to give you a cost estimate of the aluminium. As far as the sand blasting and painting, I just blasted the interior last week, epoxy coating this week. Although it's true I don't plan to paint the topsides, I am told if you head down to the tropic's you must paint the topsides white. The only real advantage to aluminium over steel is the weight savings. that and trading rust for corrosion /.o) > Tom > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > > > BadPirate, > > Would you mind giving us an estimate of the cost of your aluminum hull. Your costs for aluminum will be higher than for steel, but you won't have to sandblast and paint to the same extent as a steel boat has to. > > > > And maybe Brent or other steel boat builders could give comparable costs for a steel BS-36. On second thought, NOT Brent!! He's too good of a scrounger! Nobody else can build as cheaply as him :) > > > > Thanks, John > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > Erkan(builder), estimated 12,500lbs (bare hull) which was later confirmed when launched. The fuel and water tanks are now full or almost full and the boat is still four inches shy of her lines. After asking a few other bs36 owners, I believe the mast rigging and interior should come out to approx 3000lbs or 3 inches. leaving an inch for hoarding, after all I plan on retiring on-board /.o) > > > Sounds like a great party Haidan! 34 people 3500lbs... hmmmm, I did the math, that's haidan and 33 bikinni babes, hahaha I'll definetly be raft'in up for the next party. It's been a year since you posted some pic's, how's your interior comming along? I'm just starting on my interior and would sure appreciate some more pic's. > > > > > > | 29264|26895|2012-11-01 12:10:49|jhess314|Re: ALU BS36|Brent, Is the cost ratio of aluminum to steel still about 5:1? Does the cost of an aluminum boat come down, relative to steel, if you account for sandblasting and painting? John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The aluminiunm for your 36 cost $20K, laying on the ground, at a time when steel for a 36 was around $4K. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > jhess314, > > I bought the boat as a bare hull, so I am unable to give you a cost estimate of the aluminium. As far as the sand blasting and painting, I just blasted the interior last week, epoxy coating this week. Although it's true I don't plan to paint the topsides, I am told if you head down to the tropic's you must paint the topsides white. The only real advantage to aluminium over steel is the weight savings. that and trading rust for corrosion /.o) > > Tom > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > > > > > BadPirate, > > > Would you mind giving us an estimate of the cost of your aluminum hull. Your costs for aluminum will be higher than for steel, but you won't have to sandblast and paint to the same extent as a steel boat has to. > > > > > > And maybe Brent or other steel boat builders could give comparable costs for a steel BS-36. On second thought, NOT Brent!! He's too good of a scrounger! Nobody else can build as cheaply as him :) > > > > > > Thanks, John > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > > > Erkan(builder), estimated 12,500lbs (bare hull) which was later confirmed when launched. The fuel and water tanks are now full or almost full and the boat is still four inches shy of her lines. After asking a few other bs36 owners, I believe the mast rigging and interior should come out to approx 3000lbs or 3 inches. leaving an inch for hoarding, after all I plan on retiring on-board /.o) > > > > Sounds like a great party Haidan! 34 people 3500lbs... hmmmm, I did the math, that's haidan and 33 bikinni babes, hahaha I'll definetly be raft'in up for the next party. It's been a year since you posted some pic's, how's your interior comming along? I'm just starting on my interior and would sure appreciate some more pic's. > > > > > > > > > > | 29265|29183|2012-11-01 13:00:56|Larry Dale|Re: diesel engine/propulsion/welder|Had a look at the welder site and it's a good idea but, it's funny how they don't tell you the price unless you call. I guess they don't want to frighten people. --- On Thu, 11/1/12, Robert Jones wrote: From: Robert Jones Subject: Re: [origamiboats] diesel engine/propulsion/welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 11:07 AM Good idea, but you might find that those welder/generators use the primary drive of the engine. Adding belt drive welder which can also be used as a charging system and generator can be added via belt or hydraulic drive after engine install. Although, you can actually weld straight off of a stock 12 volt alternator, it won't last long. However, there are ones on the market, developed for military and off-road use that are actually designed to replace the stock alternator and, when needed, plug welding rods into. This will leave the engine's primary drive free for propulsion! http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/index.html --- On Thu, 11/1/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 8:47 AM                           Good idea if you need diesel-driven welder to build your boat and use engine later for propulsion. You will have welder on board as well ;) Miller has diesels in engine driven welders: Mitsubishi S4L2 - in Big Blue 450 Duo CST (12kW) Mitsubishi S4L2, Kubota V1505, Cat C1.5 - in Big Blue 300 Pro (12kW) Kubota D722 - in Bobcat 250, Trailblazer 302 (11/9.5kW) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > I have the Klassen Suzi 37 which is a Mitsubishi S4L2. Used by Linclon for welding machines? Westerbeke also marinizes the same.  >                     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29266|26895|2012-11-01 15:04:57|Matt Malone|Re: ALU BS36|An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It has the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there could be less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The aluminium alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water. Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this so that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention at the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium over steel are easily compensated for. There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work boats. No problem is insurmountable. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: j.hess@... Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:10:49 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 Brent, Is the cost ratio of aluminum to steel still about 5:1? Does the cost of an aluminum boat come down, relative to steel, if you account for sandblasting and painting? John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The aluminiunm for your 36 cost $20K, laying on the ground, at a time when steel for a 36 was around $4K. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > jhess314, > > I bought the boat as a bare hull, so I am unable to give you a cost estimate of the aluminium. As far as the sand blasting and painting, I just blasted the interior last week, epoxy coating this week. Although it's true I don't plan to paint the topsides, I am told if you head down to the tropic's you must paint the topsides white. The only real advantage to aluminium over steel is the weight savings. that and trading rust for corrosion /.o) > > Tom > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > > > > > BadPirate, > > > Would you mind giving us an estimate of the cost of your aluminum hull. Your costs for aluminum will be higher than for steel, but you won't have to sandblast and paint to the same extent as a steel boat has to. > > > > > > And maybe Brent or other steel boat builders could give comparable costs for a steel BS-36. On second thought, NOT Brent!! He's too good of a scrounger! Nobody else can build as cheaply as him :) > > > > > > Thanks, John > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > > > Erkan(builder), estimated 12,500lbs (bare hull) which was later confirmed when launched. The fuel and water tanks are now full or almost full and the boat is still four inches shy of her lines. After asking a few other bs36 owners, I believe the mast rigging and interior should come out to approx 3000lbs or 3 inches. leaving an inch for hoarding, after all I plan on retiring on-board /.o) > > > > Sounds like a great party Haidan! 34 people 3500lbs... hmmmm, I did the math, that's haidan and 33 bikinni babes, hahaha I'll definetly be raft'in up for the next party. It's been a year since you posted some pic's, how's your interior comming along? I'm just starting on my interior and would sure appreciate some more pic's. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29267|29183|2012-11-01 15:15:29|Robert Jones|Re: diesel engine/propulsion/welder|Around $1200 depending on model. There are other brands that are cheaper, and if you know the metal that you will normally weld, you can just use a heavy duty alternator(but keep a spare just in case you overheat it and burn it out). 150amp alternator will supply the same power as 150 amp DC welder. Here is a link to the premier on Ebay http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=premier+power+welder --- On Thu, 11/1/12, Larry Dale wrote: From: Larry Dale Subject: Re: [origamiboats] diesel engine/propulsion/welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 11:00 AM   Had a look at the welder site and it's a good idea but, it's funny how they don't tell you the price unless you call. I guess they don't want to frighten people. --- On Thu, 11/1/12, Robert Jones wrote: From: Robert Jones Subject: Re: [origamiboats] diesel engine/propulsion/welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 11:07 AM Good idea, but you might find that those welder/generators use the primary drive of the engine. Adding belt drive welder which can also be used as a charging system and generator can be added via belt or hydraulic drive after engine install. Although, you can actually weld straight off of a stock 12 volt alternator, it won't last long. However, there are ones on the market, developed for military and off-road use that are actually designed to replace the stock alternator and, when needed, plug welding rods into. This will leave the engine's primary drive free for propulsion! http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/index.html --- On Thu, 11/1/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 8:47 AM                           Good idea if you need diesel-driven welder to build your boat and use engine later for propulsion. You will have welder on board as well ;) Miller has diesels in engine driven welders: Mitsubishi S4L2 - in Big Blue 450 Duo CST (12kW) Mitsubishi S4L2, Kubota V1505, Cat C1.5 - in Big Blue 300 Pro (12kW) Kubota D722 - in Bobcat 250, Trailblazer 302 (11/9.5kW) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > I have the Klassen Suzi 37 which is a Mitsubishi S4L2. Used by Linclon for welding machines? Westerbeke also marinizes the same.  >                     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29268|26895|2012-11-01 15:31:02|Paul Wilson|Re: ALU BS36|My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... Paul On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It has the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there could be less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The aluminium alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water. Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this so that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention at the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium over steel are easily compensated for. > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > Matt > > | 29269|26895|2012-11-01 15:45:12|Matt Malone|Re: ALU BS36|My ideal boat would be 100% Monel. A Brent steel boat would be nice. A couple inches of solid fibreglass is going to have to be good enough. At least it has all Monel / bronze fittings. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 08:28:05 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... Paul On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It has the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there could be less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The aluminium alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water. Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this so that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention at the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium over steel are easily compensated for. > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > Matt > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29270|29213|2012-11-01 19:27:45|martin demers|Re: Copperfree antifouling|Brent suggest "epoxycop" , you can get it at around $130.00 (can) a gal. there are suppliers selling it in N.S. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: thierry.msika@... Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:06:54 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Copperfree antifouling Does anyone have experience with this type of bottom paint? As the price of copper goes up (>US$7.5/kg) and environmental regulations go tighter, I am getting more interested in copperfree antifouling. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29271|26895|2012-11-02 02:35:13|badpirate36|Re: ALU BS36|John, Spray foam will not stick to aluminium, Neither will paint unless you sand blast, or etch the metal first. However the spray foam will stick to epoxy. If the foam is not adhered to the metal it would leave room for condinsation to form between the the metal and spray foam. the epoxy will also protect the metal from other metals accidently brought aboard causing corrosion. Brent tells the story of how his aluminium dinghy suffered from corrosion by the metals brought aboard on his boots, and how epoxy coating cured the problem... Or as I was told down at the marine store; I no longer have a aluminium boat I have an epoxy boat with a aluminium core... funny, but true /.o) I think you will find that aluminium has become too expensive to consider for for a building material compared to steel. My boat was built 12 years ago when the prices were first starting to rise, I think you will find the current price removes aluminium as an option. Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > BadPirate, > Why are you sandblasting and putting epoxy on the interior of an aluminum hull? I would have guessed that it could have been left bare, especially if you were insulating or lining the hull. > > John > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > jhess314, > > I bought the boat as a bare hull, so I am unable to give you a cost estimate of the aluminium. As far as the sand blasting and painting, I just blasted the interior last week, epoxy coating this week. Although it's true I don't plan to paint the topsides, I am told if you head down to the tropic's you must paint the topsides white. The only real advantage to aluminium over steel is the weight savings. that and trading rust for corrosion /.o) > > Tom > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > > | 29272|26895|2012-11-02 07:28:16|Matt Malone|Re: ALU BS36|If one is going to have an epoxy boat with an aluminium core, then why not have an epoxy boat with a steel core ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: badpirate@... Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 06:35:11 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 John, Spray foam will not stick to aluminium, Neither will paint unless you sand blast, or etch the metal first. However the spray foam will stick to epoxy. If the foam is not adhered to the metal it would leave room for condinsation to form between the the metal and spray foam. the epoxy will also protect the metal from other metals accidently brought aboard causing corrosion. Brent tells the story of how his aluminium dinghy suffered from corrosion by the metals brought aboard on his boots, and how epoxy coating cured the problem... Or as I was told down at the marine store; I no longer have a aluminium boat I have an epoxy boat with a aluminium core... funny, but true /.o) I think you will find that aluminium has become too expensive to consider for for a building material compared to steel. My boat was built 12 years ago when the prices were first starting to rise, I think you will find the current price removes aluminium as an option. Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > BadPirate, > Why are you sandblasting and putting epoxy on the interior of an aluminum hull? I would have guessed that it could have been left bare, especially if you were insulating or lining the hull. > > John > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > jhess314, > > I bought the boat as a bare hull, so I am unable to give you a cost estimate of the aluminium. As far as the sand blasting and painting, I just blasted the interior last week, epoxy coating this week. Although it's true I don't plan to paint the topsides, I am told if you head down to the tropic's you must paint the topsides white. The only real advantage to aluminium over steel is the weight savings. that and trading rust for corrosion /.o) > > Tom > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29273|26895|2012-11-02 08:15:58|jhess314|Re: ALU BS36|I understand that the tempered aluminums, such as 6061-T6, are much weaker after welding than the non-tempered aluminums, such as 5086. For that reason I understand that 5XXX-series aluminums are more frequently used for hull material. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5086_aluminium_alloy#Welding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy#Welding John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It has the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there could be less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The aluminium alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water. Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this so that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention at the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium over steel are easily compensated for. > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > Matt | 29274|26895|2012-11-02 08:26:52|jhess314|Re: ALU BS36|Tom, Instead of painting the interior with epoxy and then spraying with foam, had you considered using a self-stick sheet foam such as Armaflex? Because it is self-stick you might not have condensation problems between the aluminum and the foam, and you wouldn't have the extra expense of the epoxy. It's also possible that you could remove self-stick foam easier than spray foam if you subsequently had to do welding repairs on the hull. http://tinyurl.com/armaflex http://preview.tinyurl.com/armacell-products By the same rationale, if a steel boat is coated inside and out with epoxy, it is also an epoxy boat with a steel core :) Sad to hear that the price of aluminum has become so prohibitive. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > John, > Spray foam will not stick to aluminium, Neither will paint unless you sand blast, or etch the metal first. However the spray foam will stick to epoxy. If the foam is not adhered to the metal it would leave room for condinsation to form between the the metal and spray foam. the epoxy will also protect the metal from other metals accidently brought aboard causing corrosion. Brent tells the story of how his aluminium dinghy suffered from corrosion by the metals brought aboard on his boots, and how epoxy coating cured the problem... Or as I was told down at the marine store; I no longer have a aluminium boat I have an epoxy boat with a aluminium core... funny, but true /.o) > > I think you will find that aluminium has become too expensive to consider for for a building material compared to steel. My boat was built 12 years ago when the prices were first starting to rise, I think you will find the current price removes aluminium as an option. > Tom > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > > > BadPirate, > > Why are you sandblasting and putting epoxy on the interior of an aluminum hull? I would have guessed that it could have been left bare, especially if you were insulating or lining the hull. > > > > John | 29275|29213|2012-11-02 11:14:33|southcoveemail|Re: Copperfree antifouling|Thanks Martin, though epoxycop is not exactly copperfree!| 29276|29213|2012-11-02 12:00:13|Darren Bos|Re: Copperfree antifouling|I've used E-paint EP-21. The antifouling technology is a catalyst that releases hydrogen peroxide in the presence of sunlight. In BC waters I found it to work really well through the spring and summer, but the hull needed scrubbing through the fall and winter to keep it clean. I assume this is because we don't get much sunlight through the fall in winter. EP-21 is the cheapest ($57/gal) paint E-paint makes and it is a soft ablative antifouling so it might not be the best choice for a cruising boat. When it comes time to renew the bottom paint I am thinking of switching to EP-2000 which is the companies hard antifouling and a paint that has done really well on the tests from Practical Sailor. However, Practical Sailor did the test in Florida, where I understand there is not a shortage of sunlight. Darren At 08:06 AM 29/10/2012, you wrote: > > >Does anyone have experience with this type of bottom paint? > >As the price of copper goes up (>US$7.5/kg) and environmental >regulations go tighter, I am getting more interested in copperfree antifouling. | 29277|26895|2012-11-02 15:19:46|mauro gonzaga|Re: ALU BS36|OK, Monel is absolutely resistant to sea water. Cupronikel costs less and is self-antifouling. CuNi would the best, but cost is still too high. Mauro ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 8:45 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 My ideal boat would be 100% Monel.  A Brent steel boat would be nice.  A couple inches of solid fibreglass is going to have to be good enough.  At least it has all Monel / bronze fittings.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 08:28:05 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36                         My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... Paul On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint.  It has the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal.  Though there could be less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add.  The aluminium alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water.  Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat.    All of this so that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible with other high-strength materials.  It is not naturally stable in the presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention.  Some attention at the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium over steel are easily compensated for. > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work boats.  No problem is insurmountable. > > Matt > >                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29278|26895|2012-11-02 15:31:39|Paul Wilson|Re: ALU BS36|Matt, I am curious...what kind of boat is that? I saw a glass boat last month with 2 inch solid glass in the turn of the bilge but that kind of layup is quite rare...many modern glass boats nowadays are built like a plastic bag. Cheers, Paul > My ideal boat would be 100% Monel. A Brent steel boat would be nice. > A couple inches of solid fibreglass is going to have to be good > enough. At least it has all Monel / bronze fittings. > > Matt | 29279|26895|2012-11-02 17:47:02|Aaron|Re: ALU BS36|Not to mention the learning curve to weld the CuNi. ________________________________ From: mauro gonzaga To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Friday, November 2, 2012 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36   OK, Monel is absolutely resistant to sea water. Cupronikel costs less and is self-antifouling. CuNi would the best, but cost is still too high. Mauro ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 8:45 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 My ideal boat would be 100% Monel.  A Brent steel boat would be nice.  A couple inches of solid fibreglass is going to have to be good enough.  At least it has all Monel / bronze fittings.  Matt To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com From: mailto:opusnz%40yahoo.ca Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 08:28:05 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36                         My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... Paul On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint.  It has the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal.  Though there could be less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add.  The aluminium alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water.  Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat.    All of this so that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible with other high-strength materials.  It is not naturally stable in the presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention.  Some attention at the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium over steel are easily compensated for. > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work boats.  No problem is insurmountable. > > Matt > >                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29280|29280|2012-11-03 08:11:55|Ted|Ultrasonic antifouling|There are several companies offering ultrasonic antifouling equipment. Does anyone have any experience of ultrasonic antifouling? Regards, Ted| 29281|29280|2012-11-03 10:22:38|yvesmariedetanton|Re: Ultrasonic antifouling|Check: http://www.wavetrain.net/the-lunacy-report --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ted" wrote: > > There are several companies offering ultrasonic antifouling equipment. Does anyone have any experience of ultrasonic antifouling? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 29282|29183|2012-11-03 12:05:03|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Paul, do you still use Mitsubishi KB3 with 3 blades 18x17 KiwiProp? Or do you use different engine with it now, which one? Is your 9t boat is Brent's boat (if not, what LWL you have)? P.S. At least people from KiwiProp USA willing to talk and give some information about their prop. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > I'm using a Hurth 150 with 3 to 1 reduction. 18x17 RH three blade > Kiwiprop. Works great. Yes speed drops off in bumpy conditions but > under those conditions I can generally sail so it's not to much of an > issue for me. > > Paul Thompson > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > >> > >> I've had a Mitsubishi KB3 (a engine typically found in small tractors, > >> large garden mowers and gensets) in LC for the last 17 years. It was > >> sold as a Vetus M3.10. The Vetus stuff was junk and is all long gone > >> but the engine it's self has never given a days trouble in all these > >> years. It has no computers, only needs electrics for starting, is a > >> basic simple three cylinder rated for 22hp @ 3600. I normally run it > >> at about 2800 rpm and typically for an hour or two. I try never to run > >> it for less than an hour. I have also run it for three - four days > >> continuously a couple of times. Going up the Intra Coastal Waterway a > >> few years ago it was running everyday for at least 10 hours, I got the > >> impression that the engine just loved it. > >> > >> When first installed it was the normal setup, flexible mountings, wet > >> exhaust etc... and I had the normal troubles. I have subsequently > >> adopted Brent's philosophy and it is now solidly mounted, dry exhaust > >> and internal (keel tank) cooling and now do nothing but change > >> filters, adjust tappets and put in clean diesel. When I first bought > >> the engine, a mechanic told me to run it hard and I'll have no > >> trouble... and that is what I do. Having an 9ton boat, it has to run 2 > >> 800 for 5kts and 3200 for about six so it does indeed work hard. > >> > >> Some would say that 22hp is to small for a 9ton boat but this is a > >> sail boat and almost always when the seas are such that the engine > >> alone cannot make headway, adding some sail helps. I have only really > >> felt I wanted more power when maneuvering in confined quarters. 9 tons > >> takes a lot of power to get moving and to stop so it's full throttle > >> and then throttle back immediately and that has worked well so far. > >> > >> If I were to re power, I'd likely go for 36hp, and that indeed was > >> what I originally wanted but the price was right and I was not flush, > >> so that was it. > >> -- > >> Regards, > >> > >> Paul Thompson | 29283|29283|2012-11-03 18:18:36|Tom Pee|Dry exhuast|Rather than taking exhuast line to stern, what problems would be encountered if exhaust is still looped up high above water line and then exhuasted through the side of hull?| 29284|29284|2012-11-03 18:32:51|martin|Sail Maker Reference|Has any one had any dealings with a sail maker named Storch out of Nanaimo B.C. They don't seem to have a web site and I was wondering if they might be worth checking out. Experiences Good or Bad??? Two of the established lofts in Sidney apparently have changed hands recently so their track record is gone. Martin...| 29285|29284|2012-11-03 18:52:10|Paul Wilson|Re: Sail Maker Reference|My staysail was made by Storch in Vancouver.....I assume it is the same guy and he moved??? It was more expensive than my other new sails which were Lee from Hong Kong but it is a very nicely constructed sail with a nice shape and still going strong after many years. Paul On 4/11/2012 11:32 a.m., martin wrote: > > Has any one had any dealings with a sail maker named Storch out of > Nanaimo B.C. They don't seem to have a web site and I was wondering if > they might be worth checking out. Experiences Good or Bad??? Two of > the established lofts in Sidney apparently have changed hands recently > so their track record is gone. Martin... > > | 29286|29283|2012-11-03 19:47:05|brentswain38|Re: Dry exhuast|I did that on my last boat. No problem, but your loop could go under water if you were heeled enough, and the high point of the loop is not near enough to the centreline. I made a swing up extension to take it below the waterline when upright. It had an anti siphon hole where it left the hull. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Pee" wrote: > > Rather than taking exhuast line to stern, what problems would be encountered if exhaust is still looped up high above water line and then exhuasted through the side of hull? > | 29287|29183|2012-11-03 19:50:48|brentswain38|Re: diesel engine/propulsion/welder|My stock auto alternator welder has lasted 3 years and is still going strong. $35 to replace. I carry a spare. How many $35 ones can you buy for the price of a high tech one? How many 3 year spans is that? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Good idea, but you might find that those welder/generators use the primary drive of the engine. Adding belt drive welder which can also be used as a charging system and generator can be added via belt or hydraulic drive after engine install. Although, you can actually weld straight off of a stock 12 volt alternator, it won't last long. However, there are ones on the market, developed for military and off-road use that are actually designed to replace the stock alternator and, when needed, plug welding rods into. This will leave the engine's primary drive free for propulsion! http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/index.html > > --- On Thu, 11/1/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 8:47 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Good idea if you need diesel-driven welder to build your boat and use engine later for propulsion. You will have welder on board as well ;) > > > > Miller has diesels in engine driven welders: > > > > Mitsubishi S4L2 - in Big Blue 450 Duo CST (12kW) > > Mitsubishi S4L2, Kubota V1505, Cat C1.5 - in Big Blue 300 Pro (12kW) > > Kubota D722 - in Bobcat 250, Trailblazer 302 (11/9.5kW) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > > > I have the Klassen Suzi 37 which is a Mitsubishi S4L2. Used by Linclon for welding machines? Westerbeke also marinizes the same.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29288|26895|2012-11-03 19:54:48|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|I by all my steel wheelabraded and primed.so haven't had to sandblast it. Yes epoxy does slightly narrow the gap, but not by that much. Unepoxied interiors on aluminium boats have problems when you drop a penny or a bit of copper wire in the bilge, and it eats right thru. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > Brent, > Is the cost ratio of aluminum to steel still about 5:1? Does the cost of an aluminum boat come down, relative to steel, if you account for sandblasting and painting? > John > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > The aluminiunm for your 36 cost $20K, laying on the ground, at a time when steel for a 36 was around $4K. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > jhess314, > > > I bought the boat as a bare hull, so I am unable to give you a cost estimate of the aluminium. As far as the sand blasting and painting, I just blasted the interior last week, epoxy coating this week. Although it's true I don't plan to paint the topsides, I am told if you head down to the tropic's you must paint the topsides white. The only real advantage to aluminium over steel is the weight savings. that and trading rust for corrosion /.o) > > > Tom > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > > > > > > > BadPirate, > > > > Would you mind giving us an estimate of the cost of your aluminum hull. Your costs for aluminum will be higher than for steel, but you won't have to sandblast and paint to the same extent as a steel boat has to. > > > > > > > > And maybe Brent or other steel boat builders could give comparable costs for a steel BS-36. On second thought, NOT Brent!! He's too good of a scrounger! Nobody else can build as cheaply as him :) > > > > > > > > Thanks, John > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Erkan(builder), estimated 12,500lbs (bare hull) which was later confirmed when launched. The fuel and water tanks are now full or almost full and the boat is still four inches shy of her lines. After asking a few other bs36 owners, I believe the mast rigging and interior should come out to approx 3000lbs or 3 inches. leaving an inch for hoarding, after all I plan on retiring on-board /.o) > > > > > Sounds like a great party Haidan! 34 people 3500lbs... hmmmm, I did the math, that's haidan and 33 bikinni babes, hahaha I'll definetly be raft'in up for the next party. It's been a year since you posted some pic's, how's your interior comming along? I'm just starting on my interior and would sure appreciate some more pic's. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 29289|26895|2012-11-03 19:59:22|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the hull, I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for an aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above the corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > Paul > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It has the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there could be less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The aluminium alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water. Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this so that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention at the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > Matt > > > > > | 29290|26895|2012-11-03 20:03:16|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|You would have to make it as thick as spray foam, at least 1 1/2 inches, for the same insulation, and any tiny piece of metal poking thru would drip like a leaky faucet. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > Tom, > Instead of painting the interior with epoxy and then spraying with foam, had you considered using a self-stick sheet foam such as Armaflex? Because it is self-stick you might not have condensation problems between the aluminum and the foam, and you wouldn't have the extra expense of the epoxy. It's also possible that you could remove self-stick foam easier than spray foam if you subsequently had to do welding repairs on the hull. > > http://tinyurl.com/armaflex > http://preview.tinyurl.com/armacell-products > > By the same rationale, if a steel boat is coated inside and out with epoxy, it is also an epoxy boat with a steel core :) > > Sad to hear that the price of aluminum has become so prohibitive. > > John > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > John, > > Spray foam will not stick to aluminium, Neither will paint unless you sand blast, or etch the metal first. However the spray foam will stick to epoxy. If the foam is not adhered to the metal it would leave room for condinsation to form between the the metal and spray foam. the epoxy will also protect the metal from other metals accidently brought aboard causing corrosion. Brent tells the story of how his aluminium dinghy suffered from corrosion by the metals brought aboard on his boots, and how epoxy coating cured the problem... Or as I was told down at the marine store; I no longer have a aluminium boat I have an epoxy boat with a aluminium core... funny, but true /.o) > > > > I think you will find that aluminium has become too expensive to consider for for a building material compared to steel. My boat was built 12 years ago when the prices were first starting to rise, I think you will find the current price removes aluminium as an option. > > Tom > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > > > > > BadPirate, > > > Why are you sandblasting and putting epoxy on the interior of an aluminum hull? I would have guessed that it could have been left bare, especially if you were insulating or lining the hull. > > > > > > John > | 29291|29284|2012-11-03 20:06:13|brentswain38|Re: Sail Maker Reference|Storch told a client to throw away his BS furler, which worked perfectly, and give him thousands of dollars for a far more complex one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > My staysail was made by Storch in Vancouver.....I assume it is the same > guy and he moved??? It was more expensive than my other new sails which > were Lee from Hong Kong but it is a very nicely constructed sail with a > nice shape and still going strong after many years. > > Paul > > > On 4/11/2012 11:32 a.m., martin wrote: > > > > Has any one had any dealings with a sail maker named Storch out of > > Nanaimo B.C. They don't seem to have a web site and I was wondering if > > they might be worth checking out. Experiences Good or Bad??? Two of > > the established lofts in Sidney apparently have changed hands recently > > so their track record is gone. Martin... > > > > > | 29292|29183|2012-11-03 20:18:12|Robert Jones|Re: diesel engine/propulsion/welder|I agree, i use the stock ones also, but then i have been known to snatch the truck battery out and grab a pair of jumper cables. Sometimes i hesitate to tell people to do as i do! But you are right. Heat is what kills alternators. If you cool climate, or be aware that if the alternator is to hot to touch, it needs to cool. --- On Sat, 11/3/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: diesel engine/propulsion/welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, November 3, 2012, 5:50 PM   My stock auto alternator welder has lasted 3 years and is still going strong. $35 to replace. I carry a spare. How many $35 ones can you buy for the price of a high tech one? How many 3 year spans is that? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Good idea, but you might find that those welder/generators use the primary drive of the engine. Adding belt drive welder which can also be used as a charging system and generator can be added via belt or hydraulic drive after engine install. Although, you can actually weld straight off of a stock 12 volt alternator, it won't last long. However, there are ones on the market, developed for military and off-road use that are actually designed to replace the stock alternator and, when needed, plug welding rods into. This will leave the engine's primary drive free for propulsion! http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/index.html > > --- On Thu, 11/1/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 8:47 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Good idea if you need diesel-driven welder to build your boat and use engine later for propulsion. You will have welder on board as well ;) > > > > Miller has diesels in engine driven welders: > > > > Mitsubishi S4L2 - in Big Blue 450 Duo CST (12kW) > > Mitsubishi S4L2, Kubota V1505, Cat C1.5 - in Big Blue 300 Pro (12kW) > > Kubota D722 - in Bobcat 250, Trailblazer 302 (11/9.5kW) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > > > I have the Klassen Suzi 37 which is a Mitsubishi S4L2. Used by Linclon for welding machines? Westerbeke also marinizes the same.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29293|29183|2012-11-03 20:37:24|Paul Thompson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Hi Wild, I still use the Mitsubishi KB3 with 3 blades 18x17 KiwiProp. The boat is a very much modified Tahitianna 27ft9in LWL, 10ft3in beam and just over 5ft draught. Shes a heavy displacement double-ender. I dealt with KiwiProp here in NZ (where they are made) and they could not have been more helpful. I do admit that I have not played around with the pitch since I installed the Kiwiprop. I suspect I can back off an inch or two but since the engine seems happy, I have not bothered. Paul Thompson On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 5:04 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > Paul, do you still use Mitsubishi KB3 with 3 blades 18x17 KiwiProp? Or do you use different engine with it now, which one? > > Is your 9t boat is Brent's boat (if not, what LWL you have)? > > P.S. At least people from KiwiProp USA willing to talk and give some information about their prop. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> I'm using a Hurth 150 with 3 to 1 reduction. 18x17 RH three blade >> Kiwiprop. Works great. Yes speed drops off in bumpy conditions but >> under those conditions I can generally sail so it's not to much of an >> issue for me. >> >> Paul Thompson >> >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> >> >> I've had a Mitsubishi KB3 (a engine typically found in small tractors, >> >> large garden mowers and gensets) in LC for the last 17 years. It was >> >> sold as a Vetus M3.10. The Vetus stuff was junk and is all long gone >> >> but the engine it's self has never given a days trouble in all these >> >> years. It has no computers, only needs electrics for starting, is a >> >> basic simple three cylinder rated for 22hp @ 3600. I normally run it >> >> at about 2800 rpm and typically for an hour or two. I try never to run >> >> it for less than an hour. I have also run it for three - four days >> >> continuously a couple of times. Going up the Intra Coastal Waterway a >> >> few years ago it was running everyday for at least 10 hours, I got the >> >> impression that the engine just loved it. >> >> >> >> When first installed it was the normal setup, flexible mountings, wet >> >> exhaust etc... and I had the normal troubles. I have subsequently >> >> adopted Brent's philosophy and it is now solidly mounted, dry exhaust >> >> and internal (keel tank) cooling and now do nothing but change >> >> filters, adjust tappets and put in clean diesel. When I first bought >> >> the engine, a mechanic told me to run it hard and I'll have no >> >> trouble... and that is what I do. Having an 9ton boat, it has to run 2 >> >> 800 for 5kts and 3200 for about six so it does indeed work hard. >> >> >> >> Some would say that 22hp is to small for a 9ton boat but this is a >> >> sail boat and almost always when the seas are such that the engine >> >> alone cannot make headway, adding some sail helps. I have only really >> >> felt I wanted more power when maneuvering in confined quarters. 9 tons >> >> takes a lot of power to get moving and to stop so it's full throttle >> >> and then throttle back immediately and that has worked well so far. >> >> >> >> If I were to re power, I'd likely go for 36hp, and that indeed was >> >> what I originally wanted but the price was right and I was not flush, >> >> so that was it. >> >> -- >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Paul Thompson > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29294|29183|2012-11-04 01:45:17|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Thank Paul! Tahitianna looks like very interesting boat (and it has propeller in aperture and rudder similar to Brent's boats). Let me clarify if I got it right... It looks like you have Mitsubishi K3D engine (22hp@3600), not K3B. K3B has only 18hp@2700 (Max 2900rpm). Your Boat: LOA - 32 ft LWL - 27.75 ft Beam - 10.25 ft Draught=Draft - 5 ft Displacement - 9 t Engine - Mitsubishi K3D, 22hp@3600rpm Propeller - KiwiProp 18x17 RH (18" diameter, 17" pitch) Gear Box - Hurth 150, 3:1 Boat's speed: 5kn@2800rpm, 6kn@3200rpm (speed @ engine RPM) P.S. I suspect that in standard calculations of matching engine@ propeller, companies use 50% (or more) safety factor, which OK for powerboats, but requires bigger than necessary engine for a sailboat. P.S.S. I need to check what Max size of aperture I can make in the skeg (with needed prop clearance). Bigger prop means less power demand from the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Hi Wild, > > I still use the Mitsubishi KB3 with 3 blades 18x17 KiwiProp. The boat > is a very much modified Tahitianna 27ft9in LWL, 10ft3in beam and just > over 5ft draught. Shes a heavy displacement double-ender. I dealt with > KiwiProp here in NZ (where they are made) and they could not have been > more helpful. I do admit that I have not played around with the pitch > since I installed the Kiwiprop. I suspect I can back off an inch or > two but since the engine seems happy, I have not bothered. > > Paul Thompson > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 5:04 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > > Paul, do you still use Mitsubishi KB3 with 3 blades 18x17 KiwiProp? Or do you use different engine with it now, which one? > > > > Is your 9t boat is Brent's boat (if not, what LWL you have)? > > > > P.S. At least people from KiwiProp USA willing to talk and give some information about their prop. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > >> > >> I'm using a Hurth 150 with 3 to 1 reduction. 18x17 RH three blade > >> Kiwiprop. Works great. Yes speed drops off in bumpy conditions but > >> under those conditions I can generally sail so it's not to much of an > >> issue for me. > >> > >> Paul Thompson > >> > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I've had a Mitsubishi KB3 (a engine typically found in small tractors, > >> >> large garden mowers and gensets) in LC for the last 17 years. It was > >> >> sold as a Vetus M3.10. The Vetus stuff was junk and is all long gone > >> >> but the engine it's self has never given a days trouble in all these > >> >> years. It has no computers, only needs electrics for starting, is a > >> >> basic simple three cylinder rated for 22hp @ 3600. I normally run it > >> >> at about 2800 rpm and typically for an hour or two. I try never to run > >> >> it for less than an hour. I have also run it for three - four days > >> >> continuously a couple of times. Going up the Intra Coastal Waterway a > >> >> few years ago it was running everyday for at least 10 hours, I got the > >> >> impression that the engine just loved it. > >> >> > >> >> When first installed it was the normal setup, flexible mountings, wet > >> >> exhaust etc... and I had the normal troubles. I have subsequently > >> >> adopted Brent's philosophy and it is now solidly mounted, dry exhaust > >> >> and internal (keel tank) cooling and now do nothing but change > >> >> filters, adjust tappets and put in clean diesel. When I first bought > >> >> the engine, a mechanic told me to run it hard and I'll have no > >> >> trouble... and that is what I do. Having an 9ton boat, it has to run 2 > >> >> 800 for 5kts and 3200 for about six so it does indeed work hard. > >> >> > >> >> Some would say that 22hp is to small for a 9ton boat but this is a > >> >> sail boat and almost always when the seas are such that the engine > >> >> alone cannot make headway, adding some sail helps. I have only really > >> >> felt I wanted more power when maneuvering in confined quarters. 9 tons > >> >> takes a lot of power to get moving and to stop so it's full throttle > >> >> and then throttle back immediately and that has worked well so far. > >> >> > >> >> If I were to re power, I'd likely go for 36hp, and that indeed was > >> >> what I originally wanted but the price was right and I was not flush, > >> >> so that was it. > >> >> -- > >> >> Regards, > >> >> > >> >> Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 29295|26895|2012-11-04 01:46:02|martin demers|Re: ALU BS36|Brent, How thick the alu for the cabin top of a 36 ft boat? Thanks, Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the hull, I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for an aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above the corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > Paul > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It has the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there could be less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The aluminium alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water. Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this so that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention at the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > Matt > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29296|26895|2012-11-04 05:48:15|martin demers|Re: ALU BS36|Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad idea??? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the hull, I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for an aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above the corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > Paul > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It has the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there could be less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The aluminium alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water. Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this so that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention at the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > Matt > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29297|26895|2012-11-04 10:51:01|Matt Malone|Re: ALU BS36|A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the heck are you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat construction companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built up from sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck hardware, steel just seems so much easier. One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with some denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck "closes the box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the top flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some care, the fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, then, because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more resistant to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more easily oil-can. Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, absorbing a lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass do that differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays bent like a coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of stress there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some interesting ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel mesh to the steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass near the joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other unexplored failures, wicking of water, etc. Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that the hull will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and starving the fire of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a very small fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air in, and the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that have survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in Texas: http://coronadream.com/ http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail cover a little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, tear-out, then the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his website changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the engine, damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. But steel is just easier to build. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad idea??? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the hull, I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for an aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above the corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It has the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there could be less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The aluminium alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water. Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this so that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention at the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29298|26895|2012-11-04 11:15:22|martin demers|Re: ALU BS36|I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare to aluminium. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: m_j_malone@... Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the heck are you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat construction companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built up from sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck hardware, steel just seems so much easier. One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with some denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck "closes the box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the top flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some care, the fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, then, because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more resistant to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more easily oil-can. Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, absorbing a lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass do that differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays bent like a coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of stress there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some interesting ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel mesh to the steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass near the joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other unexplored failures, wicking of water, etc. Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that the hull will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and starving the fire of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a very small fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air in, and the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that have survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in Texas: http://coronadream.com/ http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail cover a little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, tear-out, then the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his website changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the engine, damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. But steel is just easier to build. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad idea??? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the hull, I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for an aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above the corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It has the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there could be less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The aluminium alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water. Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this so that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention at the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29299|29183|2012-11-04 13:51:12|Paul Thompson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Hi Wild, Your summation is correct. Interesting about the K3D, its very hard to read the stamp on the engine and I always thought it was K3B but the engine definitely revs to 3 600 and very willingly at that. So if max rpm for the K3B is 2 900, then indeed it has to be a K3D unless Mitsubishi changed things somewhere along the line (it is a 1994 engine). Vetus sold it as the M3.10 rated @ HP22. Like I said the Vetus stuff was crap but the engine it's self has been superb. Theres more info about my boat here http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/AboutLaChica.htm (sites very out of date but will be upgraded over Dec/January and made current). Paul Thompson On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:45 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > Thank Paul! Tahitianna looks like very interesting boat (and it has propeller in aperture and rudder similar to Brent's boats). > > Let me clarify if I got it right... > > It looks like you have Mitsubishi K3D engine (22hp@3600), not K3B. K3B has only 18hp@2700 (Max 2900rpm). > > Your Boat: > > LOA - 32 ft > LWL - 27.75 ft > Beam - 10.25 ft > Draught=Draft - 5 ft > Displacement - 9 t > Engine - Mitsubishi K3D, 22hp@3600rpm > Propeller - KiwiProp 18x17 RH (18" diameter, 17" pitch) > Gear Box - Hurth 150, 3:1 > Boat's speed: 5kn@2800rpm, 6kn@3200rpm (speed @ engine RPM) > > P.S. I suspect that in standard calculations of matching engine@ propeller, companies use 50% (or more) safety factor, which OK for powerboats, but requires bigger than necessary engine for a sailboat. > P.S.S. I need to check what Max size of aperture I can make in the skeg (with needed prop clearance). Bigger prop means less power demand from the engine. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> Hi Wild, >> >> I still use the Mitsubishi KB3 with 3 blades 18x17 KiwiProp. The boat >> is a very much modified Tahitianna 27ft9in LWL, 10ft3in beam and just >> over 5ft draught. Shes a heavy displacement double-ender. I dealt with >> KiwiProp here in NZ (where they are made) and they could not have been >> more helpful. I do admit that I have not played around with the pitch >> since I installed the Kiwiprop. I suspect I can back off an inch or >> two but since the engine seems happy, I have not bothered. >> >> Paul Thompson >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 5:04 AM, wild_explorer wrote: >> > Paul, do you still use Mitsubishi KB3 with 3 blades 18x17 KiwiProp? Or do you use different engine with it now, which one? >> > >> > Is your 9t boat is Brent's boat (if not, what LWL you have)? >> > >> > P.S. At least people from KiwiProp USA willing to talk and give some information about their prop. >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> >> >> I'm using a Hurth 150 with 3 to 1 reduction. 18x17 RH three blade >> >> Kiwiprop. Works great. Yes speed drops off in bumpy conditions but >> >> under those conditions I can generally sail so it's not to much of an >> >> issue for me. >> >> >> >> Paul Thompson >> >> >> >> > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I've had a Mitsubishi KB3 (a engine typically found in small tractors, >> >> >> large garden mowers and gensets) in LC for the last 17 years. It was >> >> >> sold as a Vetus M3.10. The Vetus stuff was junk and is all long gone >> >> >> but the engine it's self has never given a days trouble in all these >> >> >> years. It has no computers, only needs electrics for starting, is a >> >> >> basic simple three cylinder rated for 22hp @ 3600. I normally run it >> >> >> at about 2800 rpm and typically for an hour or two. I try never to run >> >> >> it for less than an hour. I have also run it for three - four days >> >> >> continuously a couple of times. Going up the Intra Coastal Waterway a >> >> >> few years ago it was running everyday for at least 10 hours, I got the >> >> >> impression that the engine just loved it. >> >> >> >> >> >> When first installed it was the normal setup, flexible mountings, wet >> >> >> exhaust etc... and I had the normal troubles. I have subsequently >> >> >> adopted Brent's philosophy and it is now solidly mounted, dry exhaust >> >> >> and internal (keel tank) cooling and now do nothing but change >> >> >> filters, adjust tappets and put in clean diesel. When I first bought >> >> >> the engine, a mechanic told me to run it hard and I'll have no >> >> >> trouble... and that is what I do. Having an 9ton boat, it has to run 2 >> >> >> 800 for 5kts and 3200 for about six so it does indeed work hard. >> >> >> >> >> >> Some would say that 22hp is to small for a 9ton boat but this is a >> >> >> sail boat and almost always when the seas are such that the engine >> >> >> alone cannot make headway, adding some sail helps. I have only really >> >> >> felt I wanted more power when maneuvering in confined quarters. 9 tons >> >> >> takes a lot of power to get moving and to stop so it's full throttle >> >> >> and then throttle back immediately and that has worked well so far. >> >> >> >> >> >> If I were to re power, I'd likely go for 36hp, and that indeed was >> >> >> what I originally wanted but the price was right and I was not flush, >> >> >> so that was it. >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> >> >> Paul Thompson >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Paul Thompson >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29300|29283|2012-11-04 13:57:00|Tom Pee|Re: Dry exhuast|Thanks for reply, if thats the case what about running right into the bottom of hull. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2012 7:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhuast   I did that on my last boat. No problem, but your loop could go under water if you were heeled enough, and the high point of the loop is not near enough to the centreline. I made a swing up extension to take it below the waterline when upright. It had an anti siphon hole where it left the hull. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Tom Pee" wrote: > > Rather than taking exhuast line to stern, what problems would be encountered if exhaust is still looped up high above water line and then exhuasted through the side of hull? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29301|26895|2012-11-04 14:17:09|Tom Mann|Re: ALU BS36|Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would be a good option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " flange on iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue method to build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and epoxy, unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if wanted, For a solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for leave clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers wrote: > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare to > aluminium. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the heck are > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat construction > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built up from > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck hardware, > steel just seems so much easier. > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with some > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck "closes the > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the top > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some care, the > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, then, > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more resistant > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more easily oil-can. > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, absorbing a > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass do that > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays bent like a > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of stress > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some interesting > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel mesh to the > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass near the > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other unexplored > failures, wicking of water, etc. > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that the hull > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and starving the fire > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a very small > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air in, and > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that have > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in Texas: > > > > http://coronadream.com/ > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail cover a > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, tear-out, then > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his website > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the engine, > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. > > > > But steel is just easier to build. > > > > Matt > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad idea??? > > > Martin. > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the hull, > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for an > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above the > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It has > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there could be > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The aluminium > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water. > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this so > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention at > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium > over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work > boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29302|29183|2012-11-04 14:37:24|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|I had hard time to find correct specs for your engine (still could not find performance charts). Finally I found some information on Vetus web-site (manual for M3.10) http://www.vetusweb.com/manuals_63.php?start_from=25&ucat=&archive=&subaction=&id=& P.S. Thanks for the link about your boat! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Hi Wild, > > Your summation is correct. Interesting about the K3D, its very hard to > read the stamp on the engine and I always thought it was K3B but the > engine definitely revs to 3 600 and very willingly at that. So if max > rpm for the K3B is 2 900, then indeed it has to be a K3D unless > Mitsubishi changed things somewhere along the line (it is a 1994 > engine). Vetus sold it as the M3.10 rated @ HP22. Like I said the > Vetus stuff was crap but the engine it's self has been superb. > > Theres more info about my boat here > http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/AboutLaChica.htm (sites very out > of date but will be upgraded over Dec/January and made current). > > Paul Thompson > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:45 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > Thank Paul! Tahitianna looks like very interesting boat (and it has propeller in aperture and rudder similar to Brent's boats). > > > > Let me clarify if I got it right... > > > > It looks like you have Mitsubishi K3D engine (22hp@3600), not K3B. K3B has only 18hp@2700 (Max 2900rpm). > > > > Your Boat: > > > > LOA - 32 ft > > LWL - 27.75 ft > > Beam - 10.25 ft > > Draught=Draft - 5 ft > > Displacement - 9 t > > Engine - Mitsubishi K3D, 22hp@3600rpm > > Propeller - KiwiProp 18x17 RH (18" diameter, 17" pitch) > > Gear Box - Hurth 150, 3:1 > > Boat's speed: 5kn@2800rpm, 6kn@3200rpm (speed @ engine RPM) > > > > P.S. I suspect that in standard calculations of matching engine@ propeller, companies use 50% (or more) safety factor, which OK for powerboats, but requires bigger than necessary engine for a sailboat. > > P.S.S. I need to check what Max size of aperture I can make in the skeg (with needed prop clearance). Bigger prop means less power demand from the engine. > > | 29303|29183|2012-11-04 14:38:32|Paul Thompson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Hi Wild, I have to admit to a major brain fade, it's a long time since I actually had had to think about my prop and I've mixed it up with an earlier fixed one. On visiting my website I found that it says that I have a 17x12 KiwiProp. I've measured it now (LC is out of the water and will go back in late Dec.) and the website is indeed correct it's 17x12. Please accept my apologies for the misinformation, all other data is correct. Also the speeds stated are in relatively calm waters, in a good Chesapeake Bay chop for example it will go down and with a good headwind it will go down even more sometimes for sis to four knots. However it was fine for the Intra Coastal Waterway and its fine for marina's and anchorages and thats how I use it. Otherwise I'm sailing. You should get better results in a longer boat of the same weight. Paul Thompson On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:45 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > Thank Paul! Tahitianna looks like very interesting boat (and it has propeller in aperture and rudder similar to Brent's boats). > > Let me clarify if I got it right... > > It looks like you have Mitsubishi K3D engine (22hp@3600), not K3B. K3B has only 18hp@2700 (Max 2900rpm). > > Your Boat: > > LOA - 32 ft > LWL - 27.75 ft > Beam - 10.25 ft > Draught=Draft - 5 ft > Displacement - 9 t > Engine - Mitsubishi K3D, 22hp@3600rpm > Propeller - KiwiProp 18x17 RH (18" diameter, 17" pitch) > Gear Box - Hurth 150, 3:1 > Boat's speed: 5kn@2800rpm, 6kn@3200rpm (speed @ engine RPM) > > P.S. I suspect that in standard calculations of matching engine@ propeller, companies use 50% (or more) safety factor, which OK for powerboats, but requires bigger than necessary engine for a sailboat. > P.S.S. I need to check what Max size of aperture I can make in the skeg (with needed prop clearance). Bigger prop means less power demand from the engine. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> Hi Wild, >> >> I still use the Mitsubishi KB3 with 3 blades 18x17 KiwiProp. The boat >> is a very much modified Tahitianna 27ft9in LWL, 10ft3in beam and just >> over 5ft draught. Shes a heavy displacement double-ender. I dealt with >> KiwiProp here in NZ (where they are made) and they could not have been >> more helpful. I do admit that I have not played around with the pitch >> since I installed the Kiwiprop. I suspect I can back off an inch or >> two but since the engine seems happy, I have not bothered. >> >> Paul Thompson >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 5:04 AM, wild_explorer wrote: >> > Paul, do you still use Mitsubishi KB3 with 3 blades 18x17 KiwiProp? Or do you use different engine with it now, which one? >> > >> > Is your 9t boat is Brent's boat (if not, what LWL you have)? >> > >> > P.S. At least people from KiwiProp USA willing to talk and give some information about their prop. >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> >> >> I'm using a Hurth 150 with 3 to 1 reduction. 18x17 RH three blade >> >> Kiwiprop. Works great. Yes speed drops off in bumpy conditions but >> >> under those conditions I can generally sail so it's not to much of an >> >> issue for me. >> >> >> >> Paul Thompson >> >> >> >> > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I've had a Mitsubishi KB3 (a engine typically found in small tractors, >> >> >> large garden mowers and gensets) in LC for the last 17 years. It was >> >> >> sold as a Vetus M3.10. The Vetus stuff was junk and is all long gone >> >> >> but the engine it's self has never given a days trouble in all these >> >> >> years. It has no computers, only needs electrics for starting, is a >> >> >> basic simple three cylinder rated for 22hp @ 3600. I normally run it >> >> >> at about 2800 rpm and typically for an hour or two. I try never to run >> >> >> it for less than an hour. I have also run it for three - four days >> >> >> continuously a couple of times. Going up the Intra Coastal Waterway a >> >> >> few years ago it was running everyday for at least 10 hours, I got the >> >> >> impression that the engine just loved it. >> >> >> >> >> >> When first installed it was the normal setup, flexible mountings, wet >> >> >> exhaust etc... and I had the normal troubles. I have subsequently >> >> >> adopted Brent's philosophy and it is now solidly mounted, dry exhaust >> >> >> and internal (keel tank) cooling and now do nothing but change >> >> >> filters, adjust tappets and put in clean diesel. When I first bought >> >> >> the engine, a mechanic told me to run it hard and I'll have no >> >> >> trouble... and that is what I do. Having an 9ton boat, it has to run 2 >> >> >> 800 for 5kts and 3200 for about six so it does indeed work hard. >> >> >> >> >> >> Some would say that 22hp is to small for a 9ton boat but this is a >> >> >> sail boat and almost always when the seas are such that the engine >> >> >> alone cannot make headway, adding some sail helps. I have only really >> >> >> felt I wanted more power when maneuvering in confined quarters. 9 tons >> >> >> takes a lot of power to get moving and to stop so it's full throttle >> >> >> and then throttle back immediately and that has worked well so far. >> >> >> >> >> >> If I were to re power, I'd likely go for 36hp, and that indeed was >> >> >> what I originally wanted but the price was right and I was not flush, >> >> >> so that was it. >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> >> >> Paul Thompson >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Paul Thompson >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29304|29183|2012-11-04 14:42:16|Paul Thompson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Wild, thanks for the manual link, it's quite a find! Much appreciated. Paul Thompson On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 8:37 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > I had hard time to find correct specs for your engine (still could not find performance charts). Finally I found some information on Vetus web-site (manual for M3.10) > > http://www.vetusweb.com/manuals_63.php?start_from=25&ucat=&archive=&subaction=&id=& > > P.S. Thanks for the link about your boat! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> Hi Wild, >> >> Your summation is correct. Interesting about the K3D, its very hard to >> read the stamp on the engine and I always thought it was K3B but the >> engine definitely revs to 3 600 and very willingly at that. So if max >> rpm for the K3B is 2 900, then indeed it has to be a K3D unless >> Mitsubishi changed things somewhere along the line (it is a 1994 >> engine). Vetus sold it as the M3.10 rated @ HP22. Like I said the >> Vetus stuff was crap but the engine it's self has been superb. >> >> Theres more info about my boat here >> http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/AboutLaChica.htm (sites very out >> of date but will be upgraded over Dec/January and made current). >> >> Paul Thompson >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:45 PM, wild_explorer wrote: >> > Thank Paul! Tahitianna looks like very interesting boat (and it has propeller in aperture and rudder similar to Brent's boats). >> > >> > Let me clarify if I got it right... >> > >> > It looks like you have Mitsubishi K3D engine (22hp@3600), not K3B. K3B has only 18hp@2700 (Max 2900rpm). >> > >> > Your Boat: >> > >> > LOA - 32 ft >> > LWL - 27.75 ft >> > Beam - 10.25 ft >> > Draught=Draft - 5 ft >> > Displacement - 9 t >> > Engine - Mitsubishi K3D, 22hp@3600rpm >> > Propeller - KiwiProp 18x17 RH (18" diameter, 17" pitch) >> > Gear Box - Hurth 150, 3:1 >> > Boat's speed: 5kn@2800rpm, 6kn@3200rpm (speed @ engine RPM) >> > >> > P.S. I suspect that in standard calculations of matching engine@ propeller, companies use 50% (or more) safety factor, which OK for powerboats, but requires bigger than necessary engine for a sailboat. >> > P.S.S. I need to check what Max size of aperture I can make in the skeg (with needed prop clearance). Bigger prop means less power demand from the engine. >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29305|29183|2012-11-04 14:53:03|Paul Thompson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Also note that the engine did not come with the Hurth HBW150 but with a HBW50 (they may have been fitted with other boxes but thats what mine had) which was not suitable as it only had a 1.9 to 1 (I think but whatever it was, it was much to high) reduction. By happy accident I was able to get the HBW150 and that has proved to be a good choice as it comfortably handles the engines output. Paul Thompson On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 8:37 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > I had hard time to find correct specs for your engine (still could not find performance charts). Finally I found some information on Vetus web-site (manual for M3.10) > > http://www.vetusweb.com/manuals_63.php?start_from=25&ucat=&archive=&subaction=&id=& > > P.S. Thanks for the link about your boat! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> Hi Wild, >> >> Your summation is correct. Interesting about the K3D, its very hard to >> read the stamp on the engine and I always thought it was K3B but the >> engine definitely revs to 3 600 and very willingly at that. So if max >> rpm for the K3B is 2 900, then indeed it has to be a K3D unless >> Mitsubishi changed things somewhere along the line (it is a 1994 >> engine). Vetus sold it as the M3.10 rated @ HP22. Like I said the >> Vetus stuff was crap but the engine it's self has been superb. >> >> Theres more info about my boat here >> http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/AboutLaChica.htm (sites very out >> of date but will be upgraded over Dec/January and made current). >> >> Paul Thompson >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:45 PM, wild_explorer wrote: >> > Thank Paul! Tahitianna looks like very interesting boat (and it has propeller in aperture and rudder similar to Brent's boats). >> > >> > Let me clarify if I got it right... >> > >> > It looks like you have Mitsubishi K3D engine (22hp@3600), not K3B. K3B has only 18hp@2700 (Max 2900rpm). >> > >> > Your Boat: >> > >> > LOA - 32 ft >> > LWL - 27.75 ft >> > Beam - 10.25 ft >> > Draught=Draft - 5 ft >> > Displacement - 9 t >> > Engine - Mitsubishi K3D, 22hp@3600rpm >> > Propeller - KiwiProp 18x17 RH (18" diameter, 17" pitch) >> > Gear Box - Hurth 150, 3:1 >> > Boat's speed: 5kn@2800rpm, 6kn@3200rpm (speed @ engine RPM) >> > >> > P.S. I suspect that in standard calculations of matching engine@ propeller, companies use 50% (or more) safety factor, which OK for powerboats, but requires bigger than necessary engine for a sailboat. >> > P.S.S. I need to check what Max size of aperture I can make in the skeg (with needed prop clearance). Bigger prop means less power demand from the engine. >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29306|29183|2012-11-04 15:00:02|Paul Thompson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Hi Wild, I have a K3 series manual that has some graphs in it. If you like, I can scan them and email direct to you. Paul Thompson On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 8:37 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > I had hard time to find correct specs for your engine (still could not find performance charts). Finally I found some information on Vetus web-site (manual for M3.10) > > http://www.vetusweb.com/manuals_63.php?start_from=25&ucat=&archive=&subaction=&id=& > > P.S. Thanks for the link about your boat! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> Hi Wild, >> >> Your summation is correct. Interesting about the K3D, its very hard to >> read the stamp on the engine and I always thought it was K3B but the >> engine definitely revs to 3 600 and very willingly at that. So if max >> rpm for the K3B is 2 900, then indeed it has to be a K3D unless >> Mitsubishi changed things somewhere along the line (it is a 1994 >> engine). Vetus sold it as the M3.10 rated @ HP22. Like I said the >> Vetus stuff was crap but the engine it's self has been superb. >> >> Theres more info about my boat here >> http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/AboutLaChica.htm (sites very out >> of date but will be upgraded over Dec/January and made current). >> >> Paul Thompson >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:45 PM, wild_explorer wrote: >> > Thank Paul! Tahitianna looks like very interesting boat (and it has propeller in aperture and rudder similar to Brent's boats). >> > >> > Let me clarify if I got it right... >> > >> > It looks like you have Mitsubishi K3D engine (22hp@3600), not K3B. K3B has only 18hp@2700 (Max 2900rpm). >> > >> > Your Boat: >> > >> > LOA - 32 ft >> > LWL - 27.75 ft >> > Beam - 10.25 ft >> > Draught=Draft - 5 ft >> > Displacement - 9 t >> > Engine - Mitsubishi K3D, 22hp@3600rpm >> > Propeller - KiwiProp 18x17 RH (18" diameter, 17" pitch) >> > Gear Box - Hurth 150, 3:1 >> > Boat's speed: 5kn@2800rpm, 6kn@3200rpm (speed @ engine RPM) >> > >> > P.S. I suspect that in standard calculations of matching engine@ propeller, companies use 50% (or more) safety factor, which OK for powerboats, but requires bigger than necessary engine for a sailboat. >> > P.S.S. I need to check what Max size of aperture I can make in the skeg (with needed prop clearance). Bigger prop means less power demand from the engine. >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29307|29307|2012-11-04 15:31:36|wild_explorer|Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture|Did anyone do a research about Minimum recommended clearance of the propeller in skeg's aperture? I got the impression that minimum clearance of the propeller in aperture (to the tip of the blade, and to the front/back of the hub) should be at least 20% of propeller diameter. 15% might be acceptable, but not recommended. I am trying to figure out what biggest aperture I can make in the skeg and what biggest size of propeller I can fit there. Folding propeller will need some clearance as well in horizontal direction when folded.| 29308|29307|2012-11-04 16:08:17|martin demers|Re: Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture|tip of propeller to the top and bottom of the skeg; 20 % each end To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 20:31:34 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture Did anyone do a research about Minimum recommended clearance of the propeller in skeg's aperture? I got the impression that minimum clearance of the propeller in aperture (to the tip of the blade, and to the front/back of the hub) should be at least 20% of propeller diameter. 15% might be acceptable, but not recommended. I am trying to figure out what biggest aperture I can make in the skeg and what biggest size of propeller I can fit there. Folding propeller will need some clearance as well in horizontal direction when folded. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29309|29309|2012-11-04 16:14:25|martin demers|frozen paint???|I have some gallons of metal paint (tremclad and corrostop) that spend the winter(in Quebec) in my boat , wich means they froze.can they still be usable or are they scrap? Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29310|29183|2012-11-04 16:28:02|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Ok, I will make a note to myself that you have 17x12p KiwiProp. Paul, could you check/verify what transmission and gear ratio you have? HBW150 have several variations with different Maximum forward reduction ratios and its look/shape are different: HBW150: HBW150-2,5 has 2.63:1 HBW150A: HBW150A-2,5 has 2.63:1 HBW150V: HBW150V-3 has 2.99:1 (shape much different from above ones) http://www.marinegears.com/catalog/TMI_catalog_wm.pdf About speed: your boat is good example to get an idea about what propulsion settings are needed for BS36. BS36 has similar displacement, similar beam and LWL as your boat: 8-9t, ~30ft LWL. This online calculator gives pretty close ESTIMATE what power is needed depending on Max (based on LWL) and cruise speed you enter. Link may give page error sometime. http://www.psychosnail.com/boatspeedcalculator.aspx --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Hi Wild, > > I have to admit to a major brain fade, it's a long time since I > actually had had to think about my prop and I've mixed it up with an > earlier fixed one. On visiting my website I found that it says that I > have a 17x12 KiwiProp. I've measured it now (LC is out of the water > and will go back in late Dec.) and the website is indeed correct it's > 17x12. Please accept my apologies for the misinformation, all other > data is correct. > > Also the speeds stated are in relatively calm waters, in a good > Chesapeake Bay chop for example it will go down and with a good > headwind it will go down even more sometimes for sis to four knots. > However it was fine for the Intra Coastal Waterway and its fine for > marina's and anchorages and thats how I use it. Otherwise I'm sailing. > > You should get better results in a longer boat of the same weight. > > Paul Thompson > | 29311|29309|2012-11-04 16:32:15|Matt Malone|Re: frozen paint???|I do not believe tremclad has any water in it so, it cannot freeze. I have stored cans of tremclad in my garage with no problem. Applied it to metal after years of storage, no problem. Never seen corrostop Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mdemers2005@... Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 16:14:23 -0500 Subject: [origamiboats] frozen paint??? I have some gallons of metal paint (tremclad and corrostop) that spend the winter(in Quebec) in my boat , wich means they froze.can they still be usable or are they scrap? Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29312|29183|2012-11-04 16:41:22|wild_explorer|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Paul, there is limited information I may need from the graph - HP vs RPM. I will just ask: What HP corresponds to 2800 and 3200 rpms for K3D engine? Just curious... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Hi Wild, > > I have a K3 series manual that has some graphs in it. If you like, I > can scan them and email direct to you. > > Paul Thompson | 29313|29307|2012-11-04 16:43:02|Tom Pee|Re: Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture|heard it was 25% and 30% or more for flat bottoms. ------------------------------ On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 1:08 PM PST martin demers wrote: > >tip of propeller to the top and bottom of the skeg; 20 % each end > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >From: williswildest@... >Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 20:31:34 +0000 >Subject: [origamiboats] Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did anyone do a research about Minimum recommended clearance of the propeller in skeg's aperture? > > > >I got the impression that minimum clearance of the propeller in aperture (to the tip of the blade, and to the front/back of the hub) should be at least 20% of propeller diameter. 15% might be acceptable, but not recommended. > > > >I am trying to figure out what biggest aperture I can make in the skeg and what biggest size of propeller I can fit there. Folding propeller will need some clearance as well in horizontal direction when folded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------------------ > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 29314|29309|2012-11-04 16:49:25|martin demers|Re: frozen paint???|happy to hear about it!!! > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: m_j_malone@... > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 16:32:09 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] frozen paint??? > > > > I do not believe tremclad has any water in it so, it cannot freeze. I have stored cans of tremclad in my garage with no problem. Applied it to metal after years of storage, no problem. Never seen corrostop > > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 16:14:23 -0500 > Subject: [origamiboats] frozen paint??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have some gallons of metal paint (tremclad and corrostop) that spend the winter(in Quebec) in my boat , wich means they froze.can they still be usable or are they scrap? > > Martin. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29315|29307|2012-11-05 05:06:28|mauro gonzaga|Re: Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture|I understand the clearance required forward (most) and aft (less) but not the radial clearance. In my opinion we have to give more section possible suction side of the prop. (fwrd), that's it. Mauro ________________________________ From: martin demers To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 10:08 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture tip of propeller to the top and bottom of the skeg; 20 % each end To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 20:31:34 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture                         Did anyone do a research about Minimum recommended clearance of the propeller in skeg's aperture? I got the impression that minimum clearance of the propeller in aperture (to the tip of the blade, and to the front/back of the hub)  should be at least 20% of propeller diameter. 15% might be acceptable, but not recommended. I am trying to figure out what biggest aperture I can make in the skeg and what biggest size of propeller I can fit there. Folding propeller will need some clearance as well in horizontal direction when folded.                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29316|29307|2012-11-05 10:41:29|wild_explorer|Re: Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture|As I understood it: 1. Propellers are designed to run in free water (without abstraction to water flow). Any abstraction to water flow changes efficiency of the propeller. 2. Blades' tip clearance is required because the tip of the blades may be bigger than advertized diameter of the propeller and small clearance to a skeg creates abrupt change of the water pressure at the propeller's blade which may lead to vibration and cavitation. 3. Shape of the hull, keel and the skeg/no-skeg setup affects efficiency of the propeller as well (changes free water flow to the propeller). I believe, that why Brent closes up the aperture's cut around stern tube instead of just welding plate to the skeg's opening - for more uniform flow of water to the propeller. 4. Propeller shaft's angle is used to increase diameter of the propeller (compare to horizontal) keeping acceptable clearance for given size of skeg's aperture and may change efficiency of the propeller as well. 5. Welding flat plate to the upper cut of the skegs' aperture, instead of closing it up, may be beneficial (similar to top deflection plate on outboard motors) For big ships there are recommendations for Min and Max clearance in the skeg for EACH side of the propeller (even upper and lower blade) - depends on the size of the propeller. I think that 20% clearance for small propellers is just reasonable compromise for all-around application. P.S. We are talking about regular propellers, not about in-nozzle or in-duct propellers. It is different subject and requirements. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > I understand the clearance required forward (most) and aft (less) but not the radial clearance. In my opinion we have to give more section possible suction side of the prop. (fwrd), that's it. > Mauro > | 29317|29183|2012-11-05 13:45:36|Paul Thompson|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Wild, Do you see that the KiwiProp is now available with four blades http://www.kiwiprops.co.nz Paul Thompson On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 10:41 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > Paul, there is limited information I may need from the graph - HP vs RPM. I will just ask: What HP corresponds to 2800 and 3200 rpms for K3D engine? Just curious... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> Hi Wild, >> >> I have a K3 series manual that has some graphs in it. If you like, I >> can scan them and email direct to you. >> >> Paul Thompson > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson | 29318|29318|2012-11-05 14:22:51|Mark Steele|Skeg Clearance|20 percent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29319|29307|2012-11-05 16:30:03|Darren Bos|Re: Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture|Wild, you would probably enjoy reading Dave Gerr's book the "Propeller Handbook". It's well written and very accessible for a pretty technical subject. Anyway, I think you are headed down the right track, you want as large diameter prop as you can squeeze in but with adequate tip clearances. Below is an excerpt from a table in the book RPM SL Ratio Minimum Tip Clearance 200-500 Under 1.2 8% 300-1800 1.2-2.5 10% 1000 and above > 2.5 15% High speed planing >3.0 20% The reason you want to worry about clearance above and below the prop is that too little clearance here and you will get problems with vibration. The problem is that the skeg-bottom or hull interference is intermittent (causing vibration), you can have very low tip clearance if you were to use a shroud around the entire prop, but that is another story. If propellers are mounted with a protective skeg below then the minimum tip clearance should be 12%. Gerr also recomends 30% clearance in front of the propeller (measured at the midpoint (0.5 dia of the blade)) and 15% clearance behind the blade (also measured at 0.5 blade dia). Darren At 07:41 AM 05/11/2012, you wrote: > > >As I understood it: > >1. Propellers are designed to run in free water >(without abstraction to water flow). Any >abstraction to water flow changes efficiency of the propeller. >2. Blades' tip clearance is required because the >tip of the blades may be bigger than advertized >diameter of the propeller and small clearance to >a skeg creates abrupt change of the water >pressure at the propeller's blade which may lead to vibration and cavitation. >3. Shape of the hull, keel and the skeg/no-skeg >setup affects efficiency of the propeller as >well (changes free water flow to the propeller). >I believe, that why Brent closes up the >aperture's cut around stern tube instead of just >welding plate to the skeg's opening - for more >uniform flow of water to the propeller. >4. Propeller shaft's angle is used to increase >diameter of the propeller (compare to >horizontal) keeping acceptable clearance for >given size of skeg's aperture and may change >efficiency of the propeller as well. >5. Welding flat plate to the upper cut of the >skegs' aperture, instead of closing it up, may >be beneficial (similar to top deflection plate on outboard motors) > >For big ships there are recommendations for Min >and Max clearance in the skeg for EACH side of >the propeller (even upper and lower blade) - >depends on the size of the propeller. > >I think that 20% clearance for small propellers >is just reasonable compromise for all-around application. > >P.S. We are talking about regular propellers, >not about in-nozzle or in-duct propellers. It is >different subject and requirements. > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > I understand the clearance required forward > (most) and aft (less) but not the radial > clearance. In my opinion we have to give more > section possible suction side of the prop. (fwrd), that's it. > > Mauro > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29320|29307|2012-11-05 16:54:10|Darren Bos|Re: Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture|Forgot that yahoo doesn't like tabs, the important line from the table would be for RPM 300-1800, SL ratio of 1.2-2.5, the MINIMUM tip clearance is 10%, but increases to 12% with a skeg below propeller aperture. Darren At 01:30 PM 05/11/2012, you wrote: > > >Wild, you would probably enjoy reading Dave >Gerr's book the "Propeller Handbook". It's well >written and very accessible for a pretty >technical subject. Anyway, I think you are >headed down the right track, you want as large >diameter prop as you can squeeze in but with >adequate tip clearances. Below is an excerpt from a table in the book > >RPM SL Ratio Minimum Tip Clearance >200-500 Under 1.2 8% >300-1800 1.2-2.5 10% >1000 and above > 2.5 15% >High speed planing >3.0 20% > >The reason you want to worry about clearance >above and below the prop is that too little >clearance here and you will get problems with >vibration. The problem is that the skeg-bottom >or hull interference is intermittent (causing >vibration), you can have very low tip clearance >if you were to use a shroud around the entire >prop, but that is another story. If propellers >are mounted with a protective skeg below then the >minimum tip clearance should be 12%. > >Gerr also recomends 30% clearance in front of the >propeller (measured at the midpoint (0.5 dia of >the blade)) and 15% clearance behind the blade >(also measured at 0.5 blade dia). > >Darren > >At 07:41 AM 05/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >As I understood it: > > > >1. Propellers are designed to run in free water > >(without abstraction to water flow). Any > >abstraction to water flow changes efficiency of the propeller. > >2. Blades' tip clearance is required because the > >tip of the blades may be bigger than advertized > >diameter of the propeller and small clearance to > >a skeg creates abrupt change of the water > >pressure at the propeller's blade which may > lead to vibration and cavitation. > >3. Shape of the hull, keel and the skeg/no-skeg > >setup affects efficiency of the propeller as > >well (changes free water flow to the propeller). > >I believe, that why Brent closes up the > >aperture's cut around stern tube instead of just > >welding plate to the skeg's opening - for more > >uniform flow of water to the propeller. > >4. Propeller shaft's angle is used to increase > >diameter of the propeller (compare to > >horizontal) keeping acceptable clearance for > >given size of skeg's aperture and may change > >efficiency of the propeller as well. > >5. Welding flat plate to the upper cut of the > >skegs' aperture, instead of closing it up, may > >be beneficial (similar to top deflection plate on outboard motors) > > > >For big ships there are recommendations for Min > >and Max clearance in the skeg for EACH side of > >the propeller (even upper and lower blade) - > >depends on the size of the propeller. > > > >I think that 20% clearance for small propellers > >is just reasonable compromise for all-around application. > > > >P.S. We are talking about regular propellers, > >not about in-nozzle or in-duct propellers. It is > >different subject and requirements. > > > >--- In > > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com>origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > >mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > I understand the clearance required forward > > (most) and aft (less) but not the radial > > clearance. In my opinion we have to give more > > section possible suction side of the prop. (fwrd), that's it. > > > Mauro > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29321|29183|2012-11-05 22:22:08|wild_explorer|Kiwi Prop|Yep, it is on main page of http://www.kiwiprop.us/ Paul, did you have a chance to verify model and gear ratio of you transmission? And HP of your engine @2800 and 3200 rpm (from engine chart)? I am trying to get more information from Kiwi Prop about most efficient size/pitch of the prop for my boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Wild, > > Do you see that the KiwiProp is now available with four blades > http://www.kiwiprops.co.nz > > Paul Thompson > | 29322|29307|2012-11-05 22:37:14|wild_explorer|Re: Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture|Thanks, Darren! Interesting information. I probably would enjoy reading Gerr's book, but I experience shortage of time now - building a boat. I did not clarify several things before starting the project, and now I am just trying to tap Internet and Group's brains to get correct answer.... P.S. Thanks to ALL for help. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Forgot that yahoo doesn't like tabs, the > important line from the table would be for RPM > 300-1800, SL ratio of 1.2-2.5, the MINIMUM tip > clearance is 10%, but increases to 12% with a skeg below propeller aperture. > > Darren > > > At 01:30 PM 05/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Wild, you would probably enjoy reading Dave > >Gerr's book the "Propeller Handbook". It's well > >written and very accessible for a pretty > >technical subject. Anyway, I think you are > >headed down the right track, you want as large > >diameter prop as you can squeeze in but with > >adequate tip clearances. Below is an excerpt from a table in the book > > > >RPM SL Ratio Minimum Tip Clearance > >200-500 Under 1.2 8% > >300-1800 1.2-2.5 10% > >1000 and above > 2.5 15% > >High speed planing >3.0 20% > > > >The reason you want to worry about clearance > >above and below the prop is that too little > >clearance here and you will get problems with > >vibration. The problem is that the skeg-bottom > >or hull interference is intermittent (causing > >vibration), you can have very low tip clearance > >if you were to use a shroud around the entire > >prop, but that is another story. If propellers > >are mounted with a protective skeg below then the > >minimum tip clearance should be 12%. > > > >Gerr also recomends 30% clearance in front of the > >propeller (measured at the midpoint (0.5 dia of > >the blade)) and 15% clearance behind the blade > >(also measured at 0.5 blade dia). > > > >Darren | 29323|29323|2012-11-06 13:04:28|frerepere|diamond plate stainless steel|Hello, I have acquired some diamond plate stainless steel, looks like 3/16. Recently I was practicing cutting some up with a plasma torch and have started making a wood stove out of it. Diamonds on the outside all around, and flat side up on top surface. I will try to get some measurements today, maybe someone knows what size stack (4" or 5") is needed for a particular volume. I saw a table years ago, but cant remember where. I am not familiar with the different grades/types of stainless. Are there any hazards as far as using this material inside a boat for a stove, any fumes or easy warp-age, etc etc??? Can you think of any other uses for a few square feet of 3/16 diamond plate??? I think it was a floor plate in a food factory for fork lifts. Thanks for any input. Pere| 29324|29323|2012-11-06 15:13:00|Robert Jones|Re: diamond plate stainless steel|no fumes, but the thin metal will get glowing hot and should not be within a foot(at least) of anything combustible. If you have enough plate, weld box over(or inside) a box with as much separation as possible. Cut vents(holes) in the bottom and top and it will vent the chambered hot air up and relieve some of the heat and should not get glowing hot on outside. Or, line with firebrick, which will absorb the heat buffer and absorb the heat as it passes through. Firebrick will also leave the stove disseminating heat long after the fire is out! --- On Tue, 11/6/12, frerepere wrote: From: frerepere Subject: [origamiboats] diamond plate stainless steel To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 6:06 AM   Hello, I have acquired some diamond plate stainless steel, looks like 3/16. Recently I was practicing cutting some up with a plasma torch and have started making a wood stove out of it. Diamonds on the outside all around, and flat side up on top surface. I will try to get some measurements today, maybe someone knows what size stack (4" or 5") is needed for a particular volume. I saw a table years ago, but cant remember where. I am not familiar with the different grades/types of stainless. Are there any hazards as far as using this material inside a boat for a stove, any fumes or easy warp-age, etc etc??? Can you think of any other uses for a few square feet of 3/16 diamond plate??? I think it was a floor plate in a food factory for fork lifts. Thanks for any input. Pere [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29325|29323|2012-11-06 16:04:11|brentswain38|Re: diamond plate stainless steel|It should make a good wood stove. A 4 inch stack is all I've ever needed. 300 series stainless should last forever. 400 series will rust out eventually, after 28 years. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "frerepere" wrote: > > Hello, > I have acquired some diamond plate stainless steel, looks like 3/16. > Recently I was practicing cutting some up with a plasma torch and have started making a wood stove out of it. Diamonds on the outside all around, and flat side up on top surface. I will try to get some measurements today, maybe someone knows what size stack (4" or 5") is needed for a particular volume. I saw a table years ago, but cant remember where. > > I am not familiar with the different grades/types of stainless. > Are there any hazards as far as using this material inside a boat for a stove, any fumes or easy warp-age, etc etc??? Can you think of any other uses for a few square feet of 3/16 diamond plate??? I think it was a floor plate in a food factory for fork lifts. > > Thanks for any input. > > Pere > | 29326|26895|2012-11-06 16:07:36|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|Its doable, far better than the plywood cabin tops Colvin suggests. Lighter than steel and non corrosive. A plywood mold would be easy to build. Then you would put down your fibreglass buildup, then a layer of 1 inch urethane foam, then your inside layer. Far more leak prone than metal, and more expensive. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad idea??? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the hull, I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for an aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above the corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It has the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there could be less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The aluminium alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water. Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this so that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention at the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29327|29283|2012-11-06 16:12:02|brentswain38|Re: Dry exhuast|On some boats, running it out thru the bottom of the hull works well, on others the exhaust makes a loud drumming noise, louder than the engine, sometimes. I guess the trick is to run it out at a hard point, instead of just plate, a hard point like the chine , or next to a large engine web. Some have been extremely happy with this arrangement. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > Thanks for reply, if thats the case what about running right into the bottom of hull. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2012 7:47 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Dry exhuast > > >   > > I did that on my last boat. No problem, but your loop could go under water if you were heeled enough, and the high point of the loop is not near enough to the centreline. I made a swing up extension to take it below the waterline when upright. It had an anti siphon hole where it left the hull. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Tom Pee" wrote: > > > > Rather than taking exhuast line to stern, what problems would be encountered if exhaust is still looped up high above water line and then exhuasted through the side of hull? > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29328|26895|2012-11-06 16:13:33|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|I think I would go for stainless on the flange as you don' have many options to check it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would be a good > option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " flange on > iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue method to > build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and epoxy, > unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if wanted, For a > solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for leave > clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare to > > aluminium. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: m_j_malone@... > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the heck are > > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat construction > > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built up from > > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck hardware, > > steel just seems so much easier. > > > > > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with some > > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck "closes the > > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the top > > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some care, the > > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. > > > > > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, then, > > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more resistant > > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more easily oil-can. > > > > > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, absorbing a > > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass do that > > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like > > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays bent like a > > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of stress > > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some interesting > > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel mesh to the > > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass near the > > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other unexplored > > failures, wicking of water, etc. > > > > > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that the hull > > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and starving the fire > > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a very small > > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air in, and > > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that have > > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in Texas: > > > > > > > > http://coronadream.com/ > > > > > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 > > > > > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail cover a > > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, tear-out, then > > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his website > > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the engine, > > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. > > > > > > > > But steel is just easier to build. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad idea??? > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the hull, > > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for an > > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above the > > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding > > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It has > > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the welds > > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there could be > > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy mast > > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, > > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The aluminium > > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the water. > > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, > > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form and, > > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this so > > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible > > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the > > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where > > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention at > > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of aluminium > > over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work > > boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29329|29183|2012-11-06 16:21:08|brentswain38|Re: Small commercial/industrial diesel engine|Detroit Diesel Allison was selling 30 HP diesels ,with a Hurth 50 on it, which is rated for only 18 HP continuous duty. When the trannys crapped out in less than 60 hours on several boats Detroit diesel said "Tough shit. You must have been using them for charter, as a pleasure boat will never motor for more than 12 hours in a stretch and these are not meant for more than 12 hours motoring." He didn't explain to me how the tranny knew that money was changing hands, up on deck, out of sight of the tranny. This should come as no surprise to people from BC, as Detriot Diesel Allison was responsible for the Fast ferry diesels, a major engineering disaster. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Also note that the engine did not come with the Hurth HBW150 but with > a HBW50 (they may have been fitted with other boxes but thats what > mine had) which was not suitable as it only had a 1.9 to 1 (I think > but whatever it was, it was much to high) reduction. By happy accident > I was able to get the HBW150 and that has proved to be a good choice > as it comfortably handles the engines output. > > Paul Thompson > > On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 8:37 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > > I had hard time to find correct specs for your engine (still could not find performance charts). Finally I found some information on Vetus web-site (manual for M3.10) > > > > http://www.vetusweb.com/manuals_63.php?start_from=25&ucat=&archive=&subaction=&id=& > > > > P.S. Thanks for the link about your boat! > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > >> > >> Hi Wild, > >> > >> Your summation is correct. Interesting about the K3D, its very hard to > >> read the stamp on the engine and I always thought it was K3B but the > >> engine definitely revs to 3 600 and very willingly at that. So if max > >> rpm for the K3B is 2 900, then indeed it has to be a K3D unless > >> Mitsubishi changed things somewhere along the line (it is a 1994 > >> engine). Vetus sold it as the M3.10 rated @ HP22. Like I said the > >> Vetus stuff was crap but the engine it's self has been superb. > >> > >> Theres more info about my boat here > >> http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/AboutLaChica.htm (sites very out > >> of date but will be upgraded over Dec/January and made current). > >> > >> Paul Thompson > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:45 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > >> > Thank Paul! Tahitianna looks like very interesting boat (and it has propeller in aperture and rudder similar to Brent's boats). > >> > > >> > Let me clarify if I got it right... > >> > > >> > It looks like you have Mitsubishi K3D engine (22hp@3600), not K3B. K3B has only 18hp@2700 (Max 2900rpm). > >> > > >> > Your Boat: > >> > > >> > LOA - 32 ft > >> > LWL - 27.75 ft > >> > Beam - 10.25 ft > >> > Draught=Draft - 5 ft > >> > Displacement - 9 t > >> > Engine - Mitsubishi K3D, 22hp@3600rpm > >> > Propeller - KiwiProp 18x17 RH (18" diameter, 17" pitch) > >> > Gear Box - Hurth 150, 3:1 > >> > Boat's speed: 5kn@2800rpm, 6kn@3200rpm (speed @ engine RPM) > >> > > >> > P.S. I suspect that in standard calculations of matching engine@ propeller, companies use 50% (or more) safety factor, which OK for powerboats, but requires bigger than necessary engine for a sailboat. > >> > P.S.S. I need to check what Max size of aperture I can make in the skeg (with needed prop clearance). Bigger prop means less power demand from the engine. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 29330|29307|2012-11-06 16:24:13|brentswain38|Re: Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture|I believe sharper edges to the aperture will make tip clearance more forgiving. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > heard it was 25% and 30% or more for flat bottoms. > > ------------------------------ > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 1:08 PM PST martin demers wrote: > > > > >tip of propeller to the top and bottom of the skeg; 20 % each end > > > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >From: williswildest@... > >Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 20:31:34 +0000 > >Subject: [origamiboats] Propeller clearance in skeg's aperture > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did anyone do a research about Minimum recommended clearance of the propeller in skeg's aperture? > > > > > > > >I got the impression that minimum clearance of the propeller in aperture (to the tip of the blade, and to the front/back of the hub) should be at least 20% of propeller diameter. 15% might be acceptable, but not recommended. > > > > > > > >I am trying to figure out what biggest aperture I can make in the skeg and what biggest size of propeller I can fit there. Folding propeller will need some clearance as well in horizontal direction when folded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 29331|29323|2012-11-06 16:27:16|brentswain38|Re: diamond plate stainless steel|Stoves made with thick plate take forever to let the heat out on a cold night. With my 1/8th inch stainless stove, the cabin heats up quickly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > no fumes, but the thin metal will get glowing hot and should not be within a foot(at least) of anything combustible. If you have enough plate, weld box over(or inside) a box with as much separation as possible. Cut vents(holes) in the bottom and top and it will vent the chambered hot air up and relieve some of the heat and should not get glowing hot on outside. Or, line with firebrick, which will absorb the heat buffer and absorb the heat as it passes through. Firebrick will also leave the stove disseminating heat long after the fire is out! > > --- On Tue, 11/6/12, frerepere wrote: > > From: frerepere > Subject: [origamiboats] diamond plate stainless steel > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 6:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > I have acquired some diamond plate stainless steel, looks like 3/16. > > Recently I was practicing cutting some up with a plasma torch and have started making a wood stove out of it. Diamonds on the outside all around, and flat side up on top surface. I will try to get some measurements today, maybe someone knows what size stack (4" or 5") is needed for a particular volume. I saw a table years ago, but cant remember where. > > > > I am not familiar with the different grades/types of stainless. > > Are there any hazards as far as using this material inside a boat for a stove, any fumes or easy warp-age, etc etc??? Can you think of any other uses for a few square feet of 3/16 diamond plate??? I think it was a floor plate in a food factory for fork lifts. > > > > Thanks for any input. > > > > Pere > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29332|29332|2012-11-07 10:29:34|m riley|removing oysters without destroying epoxy coating|interested in finding a way to remove oysters and barnacles without ruining the coating on a metal boat. any ideas? thanks mikein   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29333|26895|2012-11-07 11:42:15|Tom Mann|Re: ALU BS36|Yep a foam cored cabin would defiantly save a lot of weight, Last I looked the foam sheets were pretty pricey though . Wife and I are thinking maybe convert mine to pilot house, If we do what I might do is cut the cabin off leaving about a 4" flange to bolt to. Tossup using aluminum or glass/plywood . leaning more toward aluminum , I have built a couple small boats from it On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:13 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > I think I would go for stainless on the flange as you don' have many > options to check it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would be a > good > > option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " flange > on > > iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue method to > > build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and epoxy, > > unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if wanted, For > a > > solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for leave > > clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. > > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare to > > > aluminium. > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: m_j_malone@... > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the heck > are > > > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat > construction > > > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built up > from > > > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck > hardware, > > > steel just seems so much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with some > > > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck "closes > the > > > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the top > > > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some > care, the > > > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, then, > > > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more > resistant > > > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more easily > oil-can. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, absorbing a > > > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass do > that > > > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like > > > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays bent > like a > > > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of stress > > > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some > interesting > > > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel mesh > to the > > > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass near the > > > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other unexplored > > > failures, wicking of water, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that the hull > > > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and starving the > fire > > > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a very > small > > > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air in, > and > > > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that have > > > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in Texas: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://coronadream.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 > > > > > > > > > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail > cover a > > > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, tear-out, > then > > > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his website > > > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the > engine, > > > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > But steel is just easier to build. > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad idea??? > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the > hull, > > > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for > an > > > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above > the > > > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding > > > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It > has > > > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the > welds > > > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there > could be > > > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy > mast > > > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, > > > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The > aluminium > > > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the > water. > > > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, > > > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form > and, > > > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this > so > > > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible > > > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the > > > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where > > > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention > at > > > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of > aluminium > > > over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work > > > boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29334|26895|2012-11-07 12:11:17|M.J. Malone|Re: ALU BS36|I was considering a steel/aluminium angle/channel frame, looking sort of like a roll cage, with bolted-on lexan sheet and a little silicon to make it pretty waterproof. The angle member over/behind the companionway hatch would be bolted, not welded, allowing it and the sheets to be removed so that large things, like the engine might be hoisted in and out. The aft panels of the pilot house would be regularly, seasonally removeable, maybe on wing nuts, so that in hot dry weather the pilot house becomes an open-backed cuddy. Steel angle/lexan would be heavier than any continuous shell structure be it fibreglass or steel. Aluminium would be lighter that steel but more $ and still heavier than a cored fiberglass shell. One would gain 360 degree visibility. Single curving the lexan would make it reasonably stiff. I was thinking quarter or 3/8 if one used a wider spacing on cross supports. It would look greenhouse or 40's aviation-like. Clearly a fly would be needed to keep the sun off in hot weather. Matt Tom Mann wrote: Yep a foam cored cabin would defiantly save a lot of weight, Last I looked the foam sheets were pretty pricey though . Wife and I are thinking maybe convert mine to pilot house, If we do what I might do is cut the cabin off leaving about a 4" flange to bolt to. Tossup using aluminum or glass/plywood . leaning more toward aluminum , I have built a couple small boats from it On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:13 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > I think I would go for stainless on the flange as you don' have many > options to check it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would be a > good > > option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " flange > on > > iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue method to > > build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and epoxy, > > unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if wanted, For > a > > solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for leave > > clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. > > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare to > > > aluminium. > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: m_j_malone@... > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the heck > are > > > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat > construction > > > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built up > from > > > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck > hardware, > > > steel just seems so much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with some > > > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck "closes > the > > > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the top > > > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some > care, the > > > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, then, > > > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more > resistant > > > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more easily > oil-can. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, absorbing a > > > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass do > that > > > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like > > > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays bent > like a > > > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of stress > > > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some > interesting > > > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel mesh > to the > > > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass near the > > > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other unexplored > > > failures, wicking of water, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that the hull > > > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and starving the > fire > > > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a very > small > > > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air in, > and > > > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that have > > > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in Texas: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://coronadream.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 > > > > > > > > > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail > cover a > > > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, tear-out, > then > > > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his website > > > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the > engine, > > > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > But steel is just easier to build. > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad idea??? > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the > hull, > > > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for > an > > > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above > the > > > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding > > > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It > has > > > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the > welds > > > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there > could be > > > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy > mast > > > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, > > > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The > aluminium > > > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the > water. > > > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, > > > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form > and, > > > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this > so > > > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible > > > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the > > > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where > > > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention > at > > > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of > aluminium > > > over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work > > > boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29335|26895|2012-11-07 12:14:19|martin demers|Re: ALU BS36|I too more leaning toward akuminium, mainly for weight saving but since it needs special equipment to weld it and also because of the high price of aluminium , it made me think of fiberglass. Working with fiberglass is accessible to anyone without any special equipmentPlywood covered with fibeglass would be a fast and cheap way to raise pilothouse, but how long before it starts to leak like Brent suggested is another story. And the possibility of twisting... Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: tazmannm@... Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:42:14 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 Yep a foam cored cabin would defiantly save a lot of weight, Last I looked the foam sheets were pretty pricey though . Wife and I are thinking maybe convert mine to pilot house, If we do what I might do is cut the cabin off leaving about a 4" flange to bolt to. Tossup using aluminum or glass/plywood . leaning more toward aluminum , I have built a couple small boats from it On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:13 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > I think I would go for stainless on the flange as you don' have many > options to check it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would be a > good > > option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " flange > on > > iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue method to > > build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and epoxy, > > unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if wanted, For > a > > solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for leave > > clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. > > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare to > > > aluminium. > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: m_j_malone@... > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the heck > are > > > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat > construction > > > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built up > from > > > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck > hardware, > > > steel just seems so much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with some > > > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck "closes > the > > > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the top > > > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some > care, the > > > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, then, > > > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more > resistant > > > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more easily > oil-can. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, absorbing a > > > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass do > that > > > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like > > > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays bent > like a > > > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of stress > > > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some > interesting > > > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel mesh > to the > > > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass near the > > > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other unexplored > > > failures, wicking of water, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that the hull > > > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and starving the > fire > > > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a very > small > > > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air in, > and > > > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that have > > > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in Texas: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://coronadream.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 > > > > > > > > > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail > cover a > > > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, tear-out, > then > > > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his website > > > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the > engine, > > > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > But steel is just easier to build. > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad idea??? > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the > hull, > > > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for > an > > > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above > the > > > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better welding > > > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It > has > > > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the > welds > > > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there > could be > > > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy > mast > > > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere else, > > > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The > aluminium > > > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the > water. > > > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, > > > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly form > and, > > > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this > so > > > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more compatible > > > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in the > > > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains where > > > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some attention > at > > > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of > aluminium > > > over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel work > > > boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29336|29323|2012-11-07 19:53:54|Robert Jones|Re: diamond plate stainless steel|Just an old fireman being erring on the side of caution! --- On Tue, 11/6/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 2:27 PM   Stoves made with thick plate take forever to let the heat out on a cold night. With my 1/8th inch stainless stove, the cabin heats up quickly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > no fumes, but the thin metal will get glowing hot and should not be within a foot(at least) of anything combustible. If you have enough plate, weld box over(or inside) a box with as much separation as possible. Cut vents(holes) in the bottom and top and it will vent the chambered hot air up and relieve some of the heat and should not get glowing hot on outside. Or, line with firebrick, which will absorb the heat buffer and absorb the heat as it passes through. Firebrick will also leave the stove disseminating heat long after the fire is out! > > --- On Tue, 11/6/12, frerepere wrote: > > From: frerepere > Subject: [origamiboats] diamond plate stainless steel > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 6:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > I have acquired some diamond plate stainless steel, looks like 3/16. > > Recently I was practicing cutting some up with a plasma torch and have started making a wood stove out of it. Diamonds on the outside all around, and flat side up on top surface. I will try to get some measurements today, maybe someone knows what size stack (4" or 5") is needed for a particular volume. I saw a table years ago, but cant remember where. > > > > I am not familiar with the different grades/types of stainless. > > Are there any hazards as far as using this material inside a boat for a stove, any fumes or easy warp-age, etc etc??? Can you think of any other uses for a few square feet of 3/16 diamond plate??? I think it was a floor plate in a food factory for fork lifts. > > > > Thanks for any input. > > > > Pere > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29337|26895|2012-11-07 21:33:46|Tom Mann|Re: ALU BS36|Martin I wouldn't think flexing or leaking would be a problem using ether plywood or aluminum. With the wide flange in my case 4" overlapping 3" leaving 1" clearance off the deck using aluminum with about 2-1/2" bolt spacing it would basically become one unit with a 3" wide gasket-bedding compound it would take a lot for it to leak. corrosion at the flange would be the biggest problem that's where the stainless would help. Just something you would have to keep an eye on. On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:14 AM, martin demers wrote: > > I too more leaning toward akuminium, mainly for weight saving but since > it needs special equipment to weld it and also because of the high price of > aluminium , it made me think of fiberglass. Working with fiberglass is > accessible to anyone without any special equipmentPlywood covered with > fibeglass would be a fast and cheap way to raise pilothouse, but how long > before it starts to leak like Brent suggested is another story. And the > possibility of twisting... > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: tazmannm@... > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:42:14 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep a foam cored cabin would defiantly save a lot of weight, Last I > > looked the foam sheets were pretty pricey though . > > Wife and I are thinking maybe convert mine to pilot house, If we do what > > I might do is cut the cabin off leaving about a 4" flange to bolt to. > > Tossup using aluminum or glass/plywood . leaning more toward aluminum , I > > have built a couple small boats from it > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:13 PM, brentswain38 >wrote: > > > > > I think I would go for stainless on the flange as you don' have many > > > options to check it. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > > > Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would be a > > > good > > > > option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " > flange > > > on > > > > iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue method > to > > > > build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and epoxy, > > > > unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if wanted, > For > > > a > > > > solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for leave > > > > clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare to > > > > > aluminium. > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: m_j_malone@... > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the heck > > > are > > > > > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat > > > construction > > > > > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built > up > > > from > > > > > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck > > > hardware, > > > > > steel just seems so much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with some > > > > > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck "closes > > > the > > > > > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the > top > > > > > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some > > > care, the > > > > > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, > then, > > > > > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more > > > resistant > > > > > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more easily > > > oil-can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, > absorbing a > > > > > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass do > > > that > > > > > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like > > > > > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays bent > > > like a > > > > > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of > stress > > > > > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some > > > interesting > > > > > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel mesh > > > to the > > > > > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass near > the > > > > > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other > unexplored > > > > > failures, wicking of water, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that the > hull > > > > > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and starving > the > > > fire > > > > > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a very > > > small > > > > > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air in, > > > and > > > > > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that have > > > > > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in Texas: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://coronadream.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail > > > cover a > > > > > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, tear-out, > > > then > > > > > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his > website > > > > > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the > > > engine, > > > > > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But steel is just easier to build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad > idea??? > > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the > > > hull, > > > > > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for > > > an > > > > > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above > > > the > > > > > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better > welding > > > > > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It > > > has > > > > > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the > > > welds > > > > > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there > > > could be > > > > > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy > > > mast > > > > > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere > else, > > > > > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The > > > aluminium > > > > > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the > > > water. > > > > > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, > > > > > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly > form > > > and, > > > > > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this > > > so > > > > > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more > compatible > > > > > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in > the > > > > > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains > where > > > > > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some > attention > > > at > > > > > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of > > > aluminium > > > > > over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel > work > > > > > boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29338|29323|2012-11-08 02:22:47|mauro gonzaga|Re: diamond plate stainless steel|English is not my mother tongue and I am becoming more and more curious reading about this thread. Well, I understood since the beginning that you are talking about stainless steel plate. But...what "diamond" means in this context? Mauro ________________________________ From: Robert Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel   Just an old fireman being erring on the side of caution! --- On Tue, 11/6/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 2:27 PM   Stoves made with thick plate take forever to let the heat out on a cold night. With my 1/8th inch stainless stove, the cabin heats up quickly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > no fumes, but the thin metal will get glowing hot and should not be within a foot(at least) of anything combustible. If you have enough plate, weld box over(or inside) a box with as much separation as possible. Cut vents(holes) in the bottom and top and it will vent the chambered hot air up and relieve some of the heat and should not get glowing hot on outside. Or, line with firebrick, which will absorb the heat buffer and absorb the heat as it passes through. Firebrick will also leave the stove disseminating heat long after the fire is out! > > --- On Tue, 11/6/12, frerepere wrote: > > From: frerepere > Subject: [origamiboats] diamond plate stainless steel > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 6:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > I have acquired some diamond plate stainless steel, looks like 3/16. > > Recently I was practicing cutting some up with a plasma torch and have started making a wood stove out of it. Diamonds on the outside all around, and flat side up on top surface. I will try to get some measurements today, maybe someone knows what size stack (4" or 5") is needed for a particular volume. I saw a table years ago, but cant remember where. > > > > I am not familiar with the different grades/types of stainless. > > Are there any hazards as far as using this material inside a boat for a stove, any fumes or easy warp-age, etc etc??? Can you think of any other uses for a few square feet of 3/16 diamond plate??? I think it was a floor plate in a food factory for fork lifts. > > > > Thanks for any input. > > > > Pere > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29339|29323|2012-11-08 02:30:57|martin demers|Re: diamond plate stainless steel|anti-slip plate To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: maurogonzaga1940@... Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 23:22:46 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel English is not my mother tongue and I am becoming more and more curious reading about this thread. Well, I understood since the beginning that you are talking about stainless steel plate. But...what "diamond" means in this context? Mauro ________________________________ From: Robert Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel Just an old fireman being erring on the side of caution! --- On Tue, 11/6/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 2:27 PM Stoves made with thick plate take forever to let the heat out on a cold night. With my 1/8th inch stainless stove, the cabin heats up quickly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > no fumes, but the thin metal will get glowing hot and should not be within a foot(at least) of anything combustible. If you have enough plate, weld box over(or inside) a box with as much separation as possible. Cut vents(holes) in the bottom and top and it will vent the chambered hot air up and relieve some of the heat and should not get glowing hot on outside. Or, line with firebrick, which will absorb the heat buffer and absorb the heat as it passes through. Firebrick will also leave the stove disseminating heat long after the fire is out! > > --- On Tue, 11/6/12, frerepere wrote: > > From: frerepere > Subject: [origamiboats] diamond plate stainless steel > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 6:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > I have acquired some diamond plate stainless steel, looks like 3/16. > > Recently I was practicing cutting some up with a plasma torch and have started making a wood stove out of it. Diamonds on the outside all around, and flat side up on top surface. I will try to get some measurements today, maybe someone knows what size stack (4" or 5") is needed for a particular volume. I saw a table years ago, but cant remember where. > > > > I am not familiar with the different grades/types of stainless. > > Are there any hazards as far as using this material inside a boat for a stove, any fumes or easy warp-age, etc etc??? Can you think of any other uses for a few square feet of 3/16 diamond plate??? I think it was a floor plate in a food factory for fork lifts. > > > > Thanks for any input. > > > > Pere > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29340|29323|2012-11-08 02:33:53|martin demers|Re: diamond plate stainless steel|this is true, I made my stove out of 1/4in. plate and heat has difficulty passing trough, maybe if I remove some of the stones inside it will heat more? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 21:27:13 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel Stoves made with thick plate take forever to let the heat out on a cold night. With my 1/8th inch stainless stove, the cabin heats up quickly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > no fumes, but the thin metal will get glowing hot and should not be within a foot(at least) of anything combustible. If you have enough plate, weld box over(or inside) a box with as much separation as possible. Cut vents(holes) in the bottom and top and it will vent the chambered hot air up and relieve some of the heat and should not get glowing hot on outside. Or, line with firebrick, which will absorb the heat buffer and absorb the heat as it passes through. Firebrick will also leave the stove disseminating heat long after the fire is out! > > --- On Tue, 11/6/12, frerepere wrote: > > From: frerepere > Subject: [origamiboats] diamond plate stainless steel > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 6:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > I have acquired some diamond plate stainless steel, looks like 3/16. > > Recently I was practicing cutting some up with a plasma torch and have started making a wood stove out of it. Diamonds on the outside all around, and flat side up on top surface. I will try to get some measurements today, maybe someone knows what size stack (4" or 5") is needed for a particular volume. I saw a table years ago, but cant remember where. > > > > I am not familiar with the different grades/types of stainless. > > Are there any hazards as far as using this material inside a boat for a stove, any fumes or easy warp-age, etc etc??? Can you think of any other uses for a few square feet of 3/16 diamond plate??? I think it was a floor plate in a food factory for fork lifts. > > > > Thanks for any input. > > > > Pere > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29341|29323|2012-11-08 03:19:06|Bruno Ogorelec|Re: diamond plate stainless steel|Mauro, in English, a 'diamond' is another name for a rhomb or rhomboid, as the 'diamond' suit in teh playinbg cards, or those things in the Mitsubishi logo. The diamond-pattern stainless is a steel plate with diagonally crossed ridges forming 'diamond' or rhombic patterns. It is most commonly used for non-skid floors. Bruno On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 8:22 AM, mauro gonzaga wrote: > ** > > > English is not my mother tongue and I am becoming more and more curious > reading about this thread. > Well, I understood since the beginning that you are talking about > stainless steel plate. But...what "diamond" means in this context? > Mauro > > ________________________________ > From: Robert Jones > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 1:53 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel > > > > Just an old fireman being erring on the side of caution! > > --- On Tue, 11/6/12, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 2:27 PM > > > > Stoves made with thick plate take forever to let the heat out on a cold > night. With my 1/8th inch stainless stove, the cabin heats up quickly. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > > > > > no fumes, but the thin metal will get glowing hot and should not be > within a foot(at least) of anything combustible. If you have enough plate, > weld box over(or inside) a box with as much separation as possible. Cut > vents(holes) in the bottom and top and it will vent the chambered hot air > up and relieve some of the heat and should not get glowing hot on outside. > Or, line with firebrick, which will absorb the heat buffer and absorb the > heat as it passes through. Firebrick will also leave the stove > disseminating heat long after the fire is out! > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/6/12, frerepere wrote: > > > > > > From: frerepere > > > Subject: [origamiboats] diamond plate stainless steel > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 6:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I have acquired some diamond plate stainless steel, looks like 3/16. > > > > > > Recently I was practicing cutting some up with a plasma torch and have > started making a wood stove out of it. Diamonds on the outside all around, > and flat side up on top surface. I will try to get some measurements today, > maybe someone knows what size stack (4" or 5") is needed for a particular > volume. I saw a table years ago, but cant remember where. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not familiar with the different grades/types of stainless. > > > > > > Are there any hazards as far as using this material inside a boat for a > stove, any fumes or easy warp-age, etc etc??? Can you think of any other > uses for a few square feet of 3/16 diamond plate??? I think it was a floor > plate in a food factory for fork lifts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for any input. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pere > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Bruno Ogorelec**** Ivana Lackovi�a Croate 3, Odra**** 10020 Zagreb**** **** Tel. +385 1 22 22 575**** Mobile: +385 98 224 230 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29342|29342|2012-11-08 09:29:12|martin demers|steel hull for cheap|for anyone in the east, there is this steel hull offered for a real cheap price;http://montreal.kijiji.ca/c-autos-et-vehicules-bateaux-vehicules-marins-voiliers-coque-de-voilier-acier-pret-pour-finition-W0QQAdIdZ387574634 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29343|29342|2012-11-08 09:58:45|Matt Malone|Re: steel hull for cheap|Wow, the work looks very tidy. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mdemers2005@... Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 09:29:11 -0500 Subject: [origamiboats] steel hull for cheap for anyone in the east, there is this steel hull offered for a real cheap price;http://montreal.kijiji.ca/c-autos-et-vehicules-bateaux-vehicules-marins-voiliers-coque-de-voilier-acier-pret-pour-finition-W0QQAdIdZ387574634 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29344|29323|2012-11-08 15:31:24|Matt Malone|Re: diamond plate stainless steel|http://www.fastdecals.com/images/Graphics/DiamondPlate.gif More words are unneeded. I find that diamond plate is commonly present at the scrap yard I go to. The deck of the trailer I made is now covered in galvanized diamond plate. If I see some stainless, I will grab it. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: maurogonzaga1940@... Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 23:22:46 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel English is not my mother tongue and I am becoming more and more curious reading about this thread. Well, I understood since the beginning that you are talking about stainless steel plate. But...what "diamond" means in this context? Mauro ________________________________ From: Robert Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel Just an old fireman being erring on the side of caution! --- On Tue, 11/6/12, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 2:27 PM Stoves made with thick plate take forever to let the heat out on a cold night. With my 1/8th inch stainless stove, the cabin heats up quickly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > no fumes, but the thin metal will get glowing hot and should not be within a foot(at least) of anything combustible. If you have enough plate, weld box over(or inside) a box with as much separation as possible. Cut vents(holes) in the bottom and top and it will vent the chambered hot air up and relieve some of the heat and should not get glowing hot on outside. Or, line with firebrick, which will absorb the heat buffer and absorb the heat as it passes through. Firebrick will also leave the stove disseminating heat long after the fire is out! > > --- On Tue, 11/6/12, frerepere wrote: > > From: frerepere > Subject: [origamiboats] diamond plate stainless steel > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 6:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > � > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > I have acquired some diamond plate stainless steel, looks like 3/16. > > Recently I was practicing cutting some up with a plasma torch and have started making a wood stove out of it. Diamonds on the outside all around, and flat side up on top surface. I will try to get some measurements today, maybe someone knows what size stack (4" or 5") is needed for a particular volume. I saw a table years ago, but cant remember where. > > > > I am not familiar with the different grades/types of stainless. > > Are there any hazards as far as using this material inside a boat for a stove, any fumes or easy warp-age, etc etc??? Can you think of any other uses for a few square feet of 3/16 diamond plate??? I think it was a floor plate in a food factory for fork lifts. > > > > Thanks for any input. > > > > Pere > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29345|29345|2012-11-08 17:24:31|richard.barwell@talk21.com|polyethylene foam insulation|Still looking for alternative methods of insulating steel or GRP boats. Came across this product, 8mm (or 10mm depending on which page you're reading...) thick PE foam. https://www.speedcrete.co.uk/concrete-frost-blankets-i960.html It sounds like it would stand up well to being used inside a boat. It's thin, but could be doubled up (or more) using rubber glue prior to cutting and epoxying to the inside of a suitably prepped hull . Anyone know if its likely to be any good for this? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29346|26895|2012-11-08 20:36:24|Gary H. Lucas|Re: ALU BS36|You know what leaks and fails on boats of any material. JOINTS! You guys want take a structure with an absolute minimum of joints and make big joints, lots of bolt holes etc.? If fiber glass boats didn’t have joints between the deck and hull, at all the chain plates, at every lifeline stanchion, and every pulpit and push pit, it would have almost no leaks at all, and it would last probably hundreds of years. Same goes for aluminum, steel, monel, etc., but not wood! Gary H. Lucas From: Tom Mann Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 9:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 Martin I wouldn't think flexing or leaking would be a problem using ether plywood or aluminum. With the wide flange in my case 4" overlapping 3" leaving 1" clearance off the deck using aluminum with about 2-1/2" bolt spacing it would basically become one unit with a 3" wide gasket-bedding compound it would take a lot for it to leak. corrosion at the flange would be the biggest problem that's where the stainless would help. Just something you would have to keep an eye on. On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:14 AM, martin demers wrote: > > I too more leaning toward akuminium, mainly for weight saving but since > it needs special equipment to weld it and also because of the high price of > aluminium , it made me think of fiberglass. Working with fiberglass is > accessible to anyone without any special equipmentPlywood covered with > fibeglass would be a fast and cheap way to raise pilothouse, but how long > before it starts to leak like Brent suggested is another story. And the > possibility of twisting... > Martin. > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > From: mailto:tazmannm%40gmail.com > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:42:14 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep a foam cored cabin would defiantly save a lot of weight, Last I > > looked the foam sheets were pretty pricey though . > > Wife and I are thinking maybe convert mine to pilot house, If we do what > > I might do is cut the cabin off leaving about a 4" flange to bolt to. > > Tossup using aluminum or glass/plywood . leaning more toward aluminum , I > > have built a couple small boats from it > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:13 PM, brentswain38 >wrote: > > > > > I think I would go for stainless on the flange as you don' have many > > > options to check it. > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > > > Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would be a > > > good > > > > option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " > flange > > > on > > > > iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue method > to > > > > build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and epoxy, > > > > unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if wanted, > For > > > a > > > > solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for leave > > > > clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare to > > > > > aluminium. > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: m_j_malone@... > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the heck > > > are > > > > > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat > > > construction > > > > > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built > up > > > from > > > > > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck > > > hardware, > > > > > steel just seems so much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with some > > > > > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck "closes > > > the > > > > > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the > top > > > > > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some > > > care, the > > > > > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, > then, > > > > > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more > > > resistant > > > > > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more easily > > > oil-can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, > absorbing a > > > > > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass do > > > that > > > > > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like > > > > > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays bent > > > like a > > > > > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of > stress > > > > > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some > > > interesting > > > > > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel mesh > > > to the > > > > > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass near > the > > > > > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other > unexplored > > > > > failures, wicking of water, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that the > hull > > > > > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and starving > the > > > fire > > > > > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a very > > > small > > > > > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air in, > > > and > > > > > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that have > > > > > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in Texas: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://coronadream.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail > > > cover a > > > > > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, tear-out, > > > then > > > > > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his > website > > > > > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the > > > engine, > > > > > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But steel is just easier to build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad > idea??? > > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the > > > hull, > > > > > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going for > > > an > > > > > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher above > > > the > > > > > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better > welding > > > > > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It > > > has > > > > > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the > > > welds > > > > > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there > > > could be > > > > > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an alloy > > > mast > > > > > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere > else, > > > > > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The > > > aluminium > > > > > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the > > > water. > > > > > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is slow, > > > > > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly > form > > > and, > > > > > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this > > > so > > > > > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more > compatible > > > > > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in > the > > > > > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains > where > > > > > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some > attention > > > at > > > > > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of > > > aluminium > > > > > over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel > work > > > > > boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29347|29323|2012-11-08 21:31:56|brentswain38|Re: diamond plate stainless steel|A friend, building a stove for the NW passage trip, said he wanted a lid to get a hot spot to cook on. I suggested he cut the hole out, them weld a thin piece of stainless over it.He said that worked extremely well almost as good as putting the pot on an open flame. I've since done the same with my stove. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > this is true, I made my stove out of 1/4in. plate and heat has difficulty passing trough, maybe if I remove some of the stones inside it will heat more? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 21:27:13 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: diamond plate stainless steel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stoves made with thick plate take forever to let the heat out on a cold night. With my 1/8th inch stainless stove, the cabin heats up quickly. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > > > > > no fumes, but the thin metal will get glowing hot and should not be within a foot(at least) of anything combustible. If you have enough plate, weld box over(or inside) a box with as much separation as possible. Cut vents(holes) in the bottom and top and it will vent the chambered hot air up and relieve some of the heat and should not get glowing hot on outside. Or, line with firebrick, which will absorb the heat buffer and absorb the heat as it passes through. Firebrick will also leave the stove disseminating heat long after the fire is out! > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/6/12, frerepere wrote: > > > > > > From: frerepere > > > Subject: [origamiboats] diamond plate stainless steel > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 6:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I have acquired some diamond plate stainless steel, looks like 3/16. > > > > > > Recently I was practicing cutting some up with a plasma torch and have started making a wood stove out of it. Diamonds on the outside all around, and flat side up on top surface. I will try to get some measurements today, maybe someone knows what size stack (4" or 5") is needed for a particular volume. I saw a table years ago, but cant remember where. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not familiar with the different grades/types of stainless. > > > > > > Are there any hazards as far as using this material inside a boat for a stove, any fumes or easy warp-age, etc etc??? Can you think of any other uses for a few square feet of 3/16 diamond plate??? I think it was a floor plate in a food factory for fork lifts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for any input. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pere > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29348|29345|2012-11-08 21:36:15|brentswain38|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|It would be a lot of work fitting it and gluing it down. It takes an inch and a half to be useful in northern climes, and if a tiny piece of steel was left uncovered, it would drip like a leaky faucet. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Still looking for alternative methods of insulating steel or GRP boats. Came across this product, 8mm (or 10mm depending on which page you're reading...) thick PE foam. > > > https://www.speedcrete.co.uk/concrete-frost-blankets-i960.html > > It sounds like it would stand up well to being used inside a boat. It's thin, but could be doubled up (or more) using rubber glue prior to cutting and epoxying to the inside of a suitably prepped hull . Anyone know if its likely to be any good for this? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29349|29345|2012-11-09 07:57:49|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Understood. I take it people don't spray closed cell PU foam on the insides of grp boats for a reason? ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 2:36 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation It would be  a lot of work fitting it and gluing it down. It takes an inch and  a half to be useful in northern climes, and if a tiny piece of steel was left uncovered, it would drip like  a leaky faucet. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Still looking for alternative methods of insulating steel or GRP boats. Came across this product, 8mm (or 10mm depending on which page you're reading...) thick PE foam. > > > https://www.speedcrete.co.uk/concrete-frost-blankets-i960.html > > It sounds like it would stand up well to being used inside a boat. It's thin, but could be doubled up (or more) using rubber glue prior to cutting and epoxying to the inside of a suitably prepped hull . Anyone know if its likely to be any good for this? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29350|26895|2012-11-09 08:05:24|Tom Mann|Re: ALU BS36|Well Gary you just have to weigh the pro's and con's and if you don't like it don't do it The 26' is a heavy boat and you have to really watch your weights if you want to keep it at it's displacement. adding a pilot house adds even more. If I can go bigger cabin and shave off about 500 Lbs at the same time that's a big pro On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > You know what leaks and fails on boats of any material. JOINTS! You guys > want take a structure with an absolute minimum of joints and make big > joints, lots of bolt holes etc.? If fiber glass boats didn�t have joints > between the deck and hull, at all the chain plates, at every lifeline > stanchion, and every pulpit and push pit, it would have almost no leaks at > all, and it would last probably hundreds of years. Same goes for aluminum, > steel, monel, etc., but not wood! > > Gary H. Lucas > > > From: Tom Mann > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 9:33 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > Martin > I wouldn't think flexing or leaking would be a problem using ether plywood > or aluminum. With the wide flange in my case 4" overlapping 3" leaving 1" > clearance off the deck using aluminum with about 2-1/2" bolt spacing it > would basically become one unit with a 3" wide gasket-bedding compound it > would take a lot for it to leak. corrosion at the flange would be the > biggest problem that's where the stainless would help. Just something you > would have to keep an eye on. > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:14 AM, martin demers mdemers2005%40hotmail.com>wrote: > > > > > I too more leaning toward akuminium, mainly for weight saving but since > > it needs special equipment to weld it and also because of the high price > of > > aluminium , it made me think of fiberglass. Working with fiberglass is > > accessible to anyone without any special equipmentPlywood covered with > > fibeglass would be a fast and cheap way to raise pilothouse, but how long > > before it starts to leak like Brent suggested is another story. And the > > possibility of twisting... > > Martin. > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > From: mailto:tazmannm%40gmail.com > > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:42:14 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep a foam cored cabin would defiantly save a lot of weight, Last I > > > > looked the foam sheets were pretty pricey though . > > > > Wife and I are thinking maybe convert mine to pilot house, If we do what > > > > I might do is cut the cabin off leaving about a 4" flange to bolt to. > > > > Tossup using aluminum or glass/plywood . leaning more toward aluminum , I > > > > have built a couple small boats from it > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:13 PM, brentswain38 brentswain38%40hotmail.com > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think I would go for stainless on the flange as you don' have many > > > > > options to check it. > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would be a > > > > > good > > > > > > option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " > > flange > > > > > on > > > > > > iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue > method > > to > > > > > > build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and > epoxy, > > > > > > unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if wanted, > > For > > > > > a > > > > > > solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for leave > > > > > > clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers ...>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare to > > > > > > > aluminium. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > From: m_j_malone@... > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the > heck > > > > > are > > > > > > > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat > > > > > construction > > > > > > > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built > > up > > > > > from > > > > > > > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck > > > > > hardware, > > > > > > > steel just seems so much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with > some > > > > > > > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck > "closes > > > > > the > > > > > > > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the > > top > > > > > > > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some > > > > > care, the > > > > > > > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, > > then, > > > > > > > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more > > > > > resistant > > > > > > > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more easily > > > > > oil-can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, > > absorbing a > > > > > > > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass > do > > > > > that > > > > > > > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like > > > > > > > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays bent > > > > > like a > > > > > > > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of > > stress > > > > > > > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel > mesh > > > > > to the > > > > > > > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass near > > the > > > > > > > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other > > unexplored > > > > > > > failures, wicking of water, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that the > > hull > > > > > > > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and starving > > the > > > > > fire > > > > > > > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a very > > > > > small > > > > > > > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air > in, > > > > > and > > > > > > > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that have > > > > > > > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in Texas: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://coronadream.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail > > > > > cover a > > > > > > > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, tear-out, > > > > > then > > > > > > > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his > > website > > > > > > > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the > > > > > engine, > > > > > > > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But steel is just easier to build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad > > idea??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the > > > > > hull, > > > > > > > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going > for > > > > > an > > > > > > > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher > above > > > > > the > > > > > > > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better > > welding > > > > > > > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It > > > > > has > > > > > > > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the > > > > > welds > > > > > > > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there > > > > > could be > > > > > > > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an > alloy > > > > > mast > > > > > > > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere > > else, > > > > > > > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The > > > > > aluminium > > > > > > > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the > > > > > water. > > > > > > > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is > slow, > > > > > > > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly > > form > > > > > and, > > > > > > > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this > > > > > so > > > > > > > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more > > compatible > > > > > > > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in > > the > > > > > > > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains > > where > > > > > > > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some > > attention > > > > > at > > > > > > > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of > > > > > aluminium > > > > > > > over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel > > work > > > > > > > boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29351|26895|2012-11-09 08:56:05|M.J. Malone|Re: ALU BS36|Do not overlook the extra weight of joints between different materials. The weight of a joint between steel and steel is a little bead of weld. Consider a bolted lap joint. When materials have different unit stiffnesses, the more stretchy material has to be thicker near the joint so it has near the same sheet stiffness, so that, between fasteners, there is less tendency to open gaps disproportionated due to the stretchy material. Then also, in addition to fasteners, the joint may be glued and there will be good force transfer. Imagine cutting a rubber band so it is a long strip and glue half of it to a rock. Now pull on the bitter end. The force transfer is concentrated in a narrow segment of the band just where it meets the rock. On can get a peel failure going pretty easily. So the fiberglass would have to be quite thick where it bolts to the metal, and glued, or expect a lot of small leaks. I hear sikaflex is really good to, alternatively, fill and seal between incompatible structures, but, I have been sadly disappointed with other products from sikkens, so I would not risk it on something I never want to service. Matt Tom Mann wrote: Well Gary you just have to weigh the pro's and con's and if you don't like it don't do it The 26' is a heavy boat and you have to really watch your weights if you want to keep it at it's displacement. adding a pilot house adds even more. If I can go bigger cabin and shave off about 500 Lbs at the same time that's a big pro On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > You know what leaks and fails on boats of any material. JOINTS! You guys > want take a structure with an absolute minimum of joints and make big > joints, lots of bolt holes etc.? If fiber glass boats didn’t have joints > between the deck and hull, at all the chain plates, at every lifeline > stanchion, and every pulpit and push pit, it would have almost no leaks at > all, and it would last probably hundreds of years. Same goes for aluminum, > steel, monel, etc., but not wood! > > Gary H. Lucas > > > From: Tom Mann > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 9:33 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > Martin > I wouldn't think flexing or leaking would be a problem using ether plywood > or aluminum. With the wide flange in my case 4" overlapping 3" leaving 1" > clearance off the deck using aluminum with about 2-1/2" bolt spacing it > would basically become one unit with a 3" wide gasket-bedding compound it > would take a lot for it to leak. corrosion at the flange would be the > biggest problem that's where the stainless would help. Just something you > would have to keep an eye on. > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:14 AM, martin demers mdemers2005%40hotmail.com>wrote: > > > > > I too more leaning toward akuminium, mainly for weight saving but since > > it needs special equipment to weld it and also because of the high price > of > > aluminium , it made me think of fiberglass. Working with fiberglass is > > accessible to anyone without any special equipmentPlywood covered with > > fibeglass would be a fast and cheap way to raise pilothouse, but how long > > before it starts to leak like Brent suggested is another story. And the > > possibility of twisting... > > Martin. > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > From: mailto:tazmannm%40gmail.com > > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:42:14 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep a foam cored cabin would defiantly save a lot of weight, Last I > > > > looked the foam sheets were pretty pricey though . > > > > Wife and I are thinking maybe convert mine to pilot house, If we do what > > > > I might do is cut the cabin off leaving about a 4" flange to bolt to. > > > > Tossup using aluminum or glass/plywood . leaning more toward aluminum , I > > > > have built a couple small boats from it > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:13 PM, brentswain38 brentswain38%40hotmail.com > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think I would go for stainless on the flange as you don' have many > > > > > options to check it. > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would be a > > > > > good > > > > > > option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " > > flange > > > > > on > > > > > > iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue > method > > to > > > > > > build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and > epoxy, > > > > > > unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if wanted, > > For > > > > > a > > > > > > solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for leave > > > > > > clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers ...>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare to > > > > > > > aluminium. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > From: m_j_malone@... > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the > heck > > > > > are > > > > > > > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat > > > > > construction > > > > > > > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built > > up > > > > > from > > > > > > > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck > > > > > hardware, > > > > > > > steel just seems so much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with > some > > > > > > > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck > "closes > > > > > the > > > > > > > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the > > top > > > > > > > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some > > > > > care, the > > > > > > > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, > > then, > > > > > > > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more > > > > > resistant > > > > > > > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more easily > > > > > oil-can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, > > absorbing a > > > > > > > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass > do > > > > > that > > > > > > > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like > > > > > > > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays bent > > > > > like a > > > > > > > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of > > stress > > > > > > > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel > mesh > > > > > to the > > > > > > > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass near > > the > > > > > > > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other > > unexplored > > > > > > > failures, wicking of water, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that the > > hull > > > > > > > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and starving > > the > > > > > fire > > > > > > > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a very > > > > > small > > > > > > > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air > in, > > > > > and > > > > > > > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that have > > > > > > > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in Texas: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://coronadream.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail > > > > > cover a > > > > > > > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, tear-out, > > > > > then > > > > > > > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his > > website > > > > > > > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the > > > > > engine, > > > > > > > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But steel is just easier to build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad > > idea??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the > > > > > hull, > > > > > > > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going > for > > > > > an > > > > > > > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher > above > > > > > the > > > > > > > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better > > welding > > > > > > > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. It > > > > > has > > > > > > > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and the > > > > > welds > > > > > > > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there > > > > > could be > > > > > > > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an > alloy > > > > > mast > > > > > > > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere > > else, > > > > > > > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The > > > > > aluminium > > > > > > > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in the > > > > > water. > > > > > > > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is > slow, > > > > > > > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly > > form > > > > > and, > > > > > > > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this > > > > > so > > > > > > > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more > > compatible > > > > > > > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in > > the > > > > > > > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains > > where > > > > > > > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some > > attention > > > > > at > > > > > > > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of > > > > > aluminium > > > > > > > over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel > > work > > > > > > > boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 29352|29345|2012-11-09 09:59:36|Mark Hamill|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Bolger and friends use the pink foam insulation as a structural material epoxy sandwhiched between ply on the bottoms of their Birdwatcher and maybe others?? Might be worth a look?? MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29353|26895|2012-11-09 10:36:13|Tom Mann|Re: ALU BS36|In fiberglass I would be inclined to trim the joint outside with say 1"x 3" wood trim or an aluminum trim. If I do mine in aluminum I may make the flange a bit different, rather than have all the bolts exposed I may just run a internal flange at the top, 90% to the flange coming off the deck then trough bolt aluminum strip on top of that flange flush with outside, clamp the cabin sides on overlapping the deck flange 2" or so and then the cabin sides get welded to the aluminum strip. Kill 3 birds with one stone, all bolts would be on inside, no moisture trap, and would give me a good flange to land the cabin framing to without creating hard spots"stress riser" On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 5:56 AM, M.J. Malone wrote: > Do not overlook the extra weight of joints between different materials. > The weight of a joint between steel and steel is a little bead of weld. > Consider a bolted lap joint. When materials have different unit > stiffnesses, the more stretchy material has to be thicker near the joint so > it has near the same sheet stiffness, so that, between fasteners, there is > less tendency to open gaps disproportionated due to the stretchy material. > Then also, in addition to fasteners, the joint may be glued and there will > be good force transfer. Imagine cutting a rubber band so it is a long > strip and glue half of it to a rock. Now pull on the bitter end. The > force transfer is concentrated in a narrow segment of the band just where > it meets the rock. On can get a peel failure going pretty easily. > > So the fiberglass would have to be quite thick where it bolts to the > metal, and glued, or expect a lot of small leaks. I hear sikaflex is > really good to, alternatively, fill and seal between incompatible > structures, but, I have been sadly disappointed with other products from > sikkens, so I would not risk it on something I never want to service. > > Matt > > Tom Mann wrote: > > Well Gary you just have to weigh the pro's and con's and if you don't like > it don't do it > The 26' is a heavy boat and you have to really watch your weights if you > want to keep it at it's displacement. > adding a pilot house adds even more. If I can go bigger cabin and shave off > about 500 Lbs at the same time that's a big pro > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Gary H. Lucas >wrote: > > > You know what leaks and fails on boats of any material. JOINTS! You > guys > > want take a structure with an absolute minimum of joints and make big > > joints, lots of bolt holes etc.? If fiber glass boats didn�t have joints > > between the deck and hull, at all the chain plates, at every lifeline > > stanchion, and every pulpit and push pit, it would have almost no leaks > at > > all, and it would last probably hundreds of years. Same goes for > aluminum, > > steel, monel, etc., but not wood! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > From: Tom Mann > > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 9:33 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > Martin > > I wouldn't think flexing or leaking would be a problem using ether > plywood > > or aluminum. With the wide flange in my case 4" overlapping 3" leaving 1" > > clearance off the deck using aluminum with about 2-1/2" bolt spacing it > > would basically become one unit with a 3" wide gasket-bedding compound it > > would take a lot for it to leak. corrosion at the flange would be the > > biggest problem that's where the stainless would help. Just something you > > would have to keep an eye on. > > > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:14 AM, martin demers > mdemers2005%40hotmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > > I too more leaning toward akuminium, mainly for weight saving but since > > > it needs special equipment to weld it and also because of the high > price > > of > > > aluminium , it made me think of fiberglass. Working with fiberglass is > > > accessible to anyone without any special equipmentPlywood covered with > > > fibeglass would be a fast and cheap way to raise pilothouse, but how > long > > > before it starts to leak like Brent suggested is another story. And the > > > possibility of twisting... > > > Martin. > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > From: mailto:tazmannm%40gmail.com > > > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:42:14 -0800 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep a foam cored cabin would defiantly save a lot of weight, Last I > > > > > > looked the foam sheets were pretty pricey though . > > > > > > Wife and I are thinking maybe convert mine to pilot house, If we do > what > > > > > > I might do is cut the cabin off leaving about a 4" flange to bolt to. > > > > > > Tossup using aluminum or glass/plywood . leaning more toward aluminum > , I > > > > > > have built a couple small boats from it > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:13 PM, brentswain38 > brentswain38%40hotmail.com > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I would go for stainless on the flange as you don' have many > > > > > > > options to check it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann ...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would be > a > > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " > > > flange > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue > > method > > > to > > > > > > > > build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and > > epoxy, > > > > > > > > unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if > wanted, > > > For > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for > leave > > > > > > > > clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers > ...>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare to > > > > > > > > > aluminium. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > From: m_j_malone@... > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the > > heck > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat > > > > > > > construction > > > > > > > > > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built > > > up > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck > > > > > > > hardware, > > > > > > > > > steel just seems so much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with > > some > > > > > > > > > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck > > "closes > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the > > > top > > > > > > > > > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some > > > > > > > care, the > > > > > > > > > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, > > > then, > > > > > > > > > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more > > > > > > > resistant > > > > > > > > > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more > easily > > > > > > > oil-can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, > > > absorbing a > > > > > > > > > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass > > do > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like > > > > > > > > > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays > bent > > > > > > > like a > > > > > > > > > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of > > > stress > > > > > > > > > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel > > mesh > > > > > > > to the > > > > > > > > > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass > near > > > the > > > > > > > > > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other > > > unexplored > > > > > > > > > failures, wicking of water, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that > the > > > hull > > > > > > > > > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and > starving > > > the > > > > > > > fire > > > > > > > > > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a > very > > > > > > > small > > > > > > > > > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air > > in, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that > have > > > > > > > > > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in > Texas: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://coronadream.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail > > > > > > > cover a > > > > > > > > > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, > tear-out, > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his > > > website > > > > > > > > > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the > > > > > > > engine, > > > > > > > > > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But steel is just easier to build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad > > > idea??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the > > > > > > > hull, > > > > > > > > > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going > > for > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher > > above > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better > > > welding > > > > > > > > > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. > It > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and > the > > > > > > > welds > > > > > > > > > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there > > > > > > > could be > > > > > > > > > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an > > alloy > > > > > > > mast > > > > > > > > > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere > > > else, > > > > > > > > > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The > > > > > > > aluminium > > > > > > > > > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in > the > > > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is > > slow, > > > > > > > > > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly > > > form > > > > > > > and, > > > > > > > > > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea > > > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more > > > compatible > > > > > > > > > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in > > > the > > > > > > > > > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains > > > where > > > > > > > > > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some > > > attention > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of > > > > > > > aluminium > > > > > > > > > over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel > > > work > > > > > > > > > boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: > > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: > > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29354|29323|2012-11-09 10:58:46|jhess314|stove top material|I find it interesting that stainless steel would act as a good heat-transfer medium, compared to mild steel. The thermal conductivity of stainless steel is about 1/3 of that of mild steel and 1/4 that of iron. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html Perhaps the benefit came in replacing a portion of a 'thick' iron/steel stove top with a 'thin' stainless steel area. I could imagine that a thin section of steel would conduct heat better than a thin one of stainless, but stainless would undoubtedly resist burning out better than one made of mild steel. I wonder how a copper or bronze disk would hold up to the heat? It would certainly conduct heat much faster, but might be hard to weld! John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A friend, building a stove for the NW passage trip, said he wanted a lid to get a hot spot to cook on. I suggested he cut the hole out, them weld a thin piece of stainless over it.He said that worked extremely well almost as good as putting the pot on an open flame. > I've since done the same with my stove. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > this is true, I made my stove out of 1/4in. plate and heat has difficulty passing trough, maybe if I remove some of the stones inside it will heat more? > > Martin. | 29355|26895|2012-11-09 11:26:29|Tom Mann|Re: ALU BS36|http://www.georgebuehler.com/Wood%20Decks%20on%20Steel%20Hulls.html If interested Buehler has some drawings of wood deck on steel hull, looks pretty stout but all up weight saving vs 1/8" steel ? I don't think you would save much On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Tom Mann wrote: > In fiberglass I would be inclined to trim the joint outside with say 1"x > 3" wood trim or an aluminum trim. > If I do mine in aluminum I may make the flange a bit different, rather > than have all the bolts exposed I may just run a internal flange at the > top, 90% to the flange coming off the deck then trough bolt aluminum strip > on top of that flange flush with outside, clamp the cabin sides on > overlapping the deck flange 2" or so and then the cabin sides get welded to > the aluminum strip. Kill 3 birds with one stone, all bolts would be on > inside, no moisture trap, and would give me a good flange to land the cabin > framing to without creating hard spots"stress riser" > > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 5:56 AM, M.J. Malone wrote: > >> Do not overlook the extra weight of joints between different materials. >> The weight of a joint between steel and steel is a little bead of weld. >> Consider a bolted lap joint. When materials have different unit >> stiffnesses, the more stretchy material has to be thicker near the joint so >> it has near the same sheet stiffness, so that, between fasteners, there is >> less tendency to open gaps disproportionated due to the stretchy material. >> Then also, in addition to fasteners, the joint may be glued and there will >> be good force transfer. Imagine cutting a rubber band so it is a long >> strip and glue half of it to a rock. Now pull on the bitter end. The >> force transfer is concentrated in a narrow segment of the band just where >> it meets the rock. On can get a peel failure going pretty easily. >> >> So the fiberglass would have to be quite thick where it bolts to the >> metal, and glued, or expect a lot of small leaks. I hear sikaflex is >> really good to, alternatively, fill and seal between incompatible >> structures, but, I have been sadly disappointed with other products from >> sikkens, so I would not risk it on something I never want to service. >> >> Matt >> >> Tom Mann wrote: >> >> Well Gary you just have to weigh the pro's and con's and if you don't >> like >> it don't do it >> The 26' is a heavy boat and you have to really watch your weights if you >> want to keep it at it's displacement. >> adding a pilot house adds even more. If I can go bigger cabin and shave >> off >> about 500 Lbs at the same time that's a big pro >> >> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Gary H. Lucas > >wrote: >> >> > You know what leaks and fails on boats of any material. JOINTS! You >> guys >> > want take a structure with an absolute minimum of joints and make big >> > joints, lots of bolt holes etc.? If fiber glass boats didn�t have >> joints >> > between the deck and hull, at all the chain plates, at every lifeline >> > stanchion, and every pulpit and push pit, it would have almost no leaks >> at >> > all, and it would last probably hundreds of years. Same goes for >> aluminum, >> > steel, monel, etc., but not wood! >> > >> > Gary H. Lucas >> > >> > >> > From: Tom Mann >> > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 9:33 PM >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 >> > >> > >> > Martin >> > I wouldn't think flexing or leaking would be a problem using ether >> plywood >> > or aluminum. With the wide flange in my case 4" overlapping 3" leaving >> 1" >> > clearance off the deck using aluminum with about 2-1/2" bolt spacing it >> > would basically become one unit with a 3" wide gasket-bedding compound >> it >> > would take a lot for it to leak. corrosion at the flange would be the >> > biggest problem that's where the stainless would help. Just something >> you >> > would have to keep an eye on. >> > >> > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:14 AM, martin demers > > mdemers2005%40hotmail.com>wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > I too more leaning toward akuminium, mainly for weight saving but >> since >> > > it needs special equipment to weld it and also because of the high >> price >> > of >> > > aluminium , it made me think of fiberglass. Working with fiberglass is >> > > accessible to anyone without any special equipmentPlywood covered with >> > > fibeglass would be a fast and cheap way to raise pilothouse, but how >> long >> > > before it starts to leak like Brent suggested is another story. And >> the >> > > possibility of twisting... >> > > Martin. >> > > >> > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com >> > > From: mailto:tazmannm%40gmail.com >> > > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:42:14 -0800 >> > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Yep a foam cored cabin would defiantly save a lot of weight, Last I >> > > >> > > looked the foam sheets were pretty pricey though . >> > > >> > > Wife and I are thinking maybe convert mine to pilot house, If we do >> what >> > > >> > > I might do is cut the cabin off leaving about a 4" flange to bolt to. >> > > >> > > Tossup using aluminum or glass/plywood . leaning more toward aluminum >> , I >> > > >> > > have built a couple small boats from it >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:13 PM, brentswain38 > > brentswain38%40hotmail.com >> > > >wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > I think I would go for stainless on the flange as you don' have many >> > > >> > > > options to check it. >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann > ...> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would >> be a >> > > >> > > > good >> > > >> > > > > option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " >> > > flange >> > > >> > > > on >> > > >> > > > > iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue >> > method >> > > to >> > > >> > > > > build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and >> > epoxy, >> > > >> > > > > unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if >> wanted, >> > > For >> > > >> > > > a >> > > >> > > > > solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for >> leave >> > > >> > > > > clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers > > ...>wrote: >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare >> to >> > > >> > > > > > aluminium. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com >> > > >> > > > > > From: m_j_malone@... >> > > >> > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 >> > > >> > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the >> > heck >> > > >> > > > are >> > > >> > > > > > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat >> > > >> > > > construction >> > > >> > > > > > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built >> > > up >> > > >> > > > from >> > > >> > > > > > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck >> > > >> > > > hardware, >> > > >> > > > > > steel just seems so much easier. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with >> > some >> > > >> > > > > > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck >> > "closes >> > > >> > > > the >> > > >> > > > > > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the >> > > top >> > > >> > > > > > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some >> > > >> > > > care, the >> > > >> > > > > > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, >> > > then, >> > > >> > > > > > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more >> > > >> > > > resistant >> > > >> > > > > > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more >> easily >> > > >> > > > oil-can. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, >> > > absorbing a >> > > >> > > > > > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and >> fibreglass >> > do >> > > >> > > > that >> > > >> > > > > > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like >> > > >> > > > > > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays >> bent >> > > >> > > > like a >> > > >> > > > > > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of >> > > stress >> > > >> > > > > > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some >> > > >> > > > interesting >> > > >> > > > > > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel >> > mesh >> > > >> > > > to the >> > > >> > > > > > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass >> near >> > > the >> > > >> > > > > > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other >> > > unexplored >> > > >> > > > > > failures, wicking of water, etc. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that >> the >> > > hull >> > > >> > > > > > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and >> starving >> > > the >> > > >> > > > fire >> > > >> > > > > > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a >> very >> > > >> > > > small >> > > >> > > > > > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air >> > in, >> > > >> > > > and >> > > >> > > > > > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that >> have >> > > >> > > > > > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in >> Texas: >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > http://coronadream.com/ >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the >> sail >> > > >> > > > cover a >> > > >> > > > > > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, >> tear-out, >> > > >> > > > then >> > > >> > > > > > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his >> > > website >> > > >> > > > > > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the >> > > >> > > > engine, >> > > >> > > > > > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > But steel is just easier to build. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > Matt >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@... >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad >> > > idea??? >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > Martin. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > From: brentswain38@... >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the >> > > >> > > > hull, >> > > >> > > > > > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho >> going >> > for >> > > >> > > > an >> > > >> > > > > > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher >> > above >> > > >> > > > the >> > > >> > > > > > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum >> deck.... >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Paul >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better >> > > welding >> > > >> > > > > > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less >> paint. It >> > > >> > > > has >> > > >> > > > > > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and >> the >> > > >> > > > welds >> > > >> > > > > > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there >> > > >> > > > could be >> > > >> > > > > > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an >> > alloy >> > > >> > > > mast >> > > >> > > > > > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues >> everywhere >> > > else, >> > > >> > > > > > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The >> > > >> > > > aluminium >> > > >> > > > > > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in >> the >> > > >> > > > water. >> > > >> > > > > > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is >> > slow, >> > > >> > > > > > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to >> instantly >> > > form >> > > >> > > > and, >> > > >> > > > > > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of >> this >> > > >> > > > so >> > > >> > > > > > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of >> sea >> > > >> > > > water. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more >> > > compatible >> > > >> > > > > > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable >> in >> > > the >> > > >> > > > > > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust >> stains >> > > where >> > > >> > > > > > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some >> > > attention >> > > >> > > > at >> > > >> > > > > > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of >> > > >> > > > aluminium >> > > >> > > > > > over steel are easily compensated for. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are >> steel >> > > work >> > > >> > > > > > boats. No problem is insurmountable. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > Matt >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: >> > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > > >> > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: >> > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com >> > > >> > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > > >> > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > ------------------------------------ >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: >> origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com >> > > >> > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > > >> > > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups >> Links >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------------ >> > > >> > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com >> > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Gary H. Lucas >> > >> > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29356|26895|2012-11-09 14:34:54|Paul Wilson|Re: ALU BS36|I agree, it is great to be able to weld a chainplate, cleat or stanchion on deck and not have any bolt holes. I would seriously think of going with aluminum and use an explosion welded joint. It is expensive but so are a bunch of bolts and hardware and it makes for a very neat job. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u51tJdRDK0 http://dynamicmaterials.com/products/transition-joints.html Paul On 9/11/2012 2:38 p.m., Gary H. Lucas wrote: > You know what leaks and fails on boats of any material. JOINTS! You > guys want take a structure with an absolute minimum of joints and make > big joints, lots of bolt holes etc.? If fiber glass boats didn’t have > joints between the deck and hull, at all the chain plates, at every > lifeline stanchion, and every pulpit and push pit, it would have > almost no leaks at all, and it would last probably hundreds of years. > Same goes for aluminum, steel, monel, etc., but not wood! > > Gary H. Lucas | 29357|26895|2012-11-10 08:40:55|mkriley48|Re: ALU BS36|bi-metal strips are available that are aluminum explosively joined to steel and so can be welded to both materials. it has no electrolysis and was developed to put aluminum cabins on steel hulls. Also just use steel deck beams with plywood decks and it works fine. I worked on many custom boats in the 70's that were built that way by Direcktor yachts. mike| 29358|29345|2012-11-10 10:06:22|Tom Pee|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Otherthan sharpie-dory boats with flat sides, forget it, even then the deck is arced and only spray foam will properly work. ------------------------------ On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:59 AM PST Mark Hamill wrote: >Bolger and friends use the pink foam insulation as a structural material epoxy sandwhiched between ply on the bottoms of their Birdwatcher and maybe others?? Might be worth a look?? MarkH > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29359|29345|2012-11-10 10:33:48|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|The stuff I'm referring is very flexible, not like styrofoam. More like neoprene. ________________________________ From: Tom Pee To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2012, 15:06 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation Otherthan sharpie-dory boats with flat sides, forget it, even then the deck is arced and only spray foam will properly work. ------------------------------ On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:59 AM PST Mark Hamill wrote: >Bolger and friends use the pink foam insulation as a structural material epoxy sandwhiched between ply on the bottoms of their Birdwatcher and maybe others?? Might be worth a look?? MarkH > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29360|29345|2012-11-10 11:04:22|Mark Hamill|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Hi: Do you have a product name?? I found this stuff that looks interesting and am trying to find out price on Van Isle. http://www.aerogel.com/Aspen_Aerogels_Spaceloft.pdf [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29361|29345|2012-11-10 11:33:23|Aaron|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Dashew's use Armaflex on their aluminum yachts MoonFlower used arogel for there fridge. That stuff is high expensive. ________________________________ From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:04 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation   Hi: Do you have a product name?? I found this stuff that looks interesting and am trying to find out price on Van Isle. http://www.aerogel.com/Aspen_Aerogels_Spaceloft.pdf [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29362|29345|2012-11-10 11:36:39|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|What usually helps to bond in foamsheets of the more flexible kind proper laminary is the application under vacuum, very easily done with just some low density PE-foil and one or several points of evacuation (depending on size of sheets); this technique does even press sewn veneer spherically concave laminar with good results, under a much stronger foil, though. I use this to put in engine-room silencing-foam with PUR-bond to a variety of materials (instead of the ever failing contact adhesive). I suppose equippement as vacuum pump and hoses could be rented, and for the flexible foamsheets there is no special foil needed, just some sticky butyl to seal edge and hose(-s). It might be not that much cheaper than putting in PU-closed-cell spray foam, though, given the amount of glue it takes in addition to the foam sheets, and it's definitely a LOT more work compared to spraying the whole lot in one sequence. Am 10.11.2012 um 16:33 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > The stuff I'm referring is very flexible, not like styrofoam. More like neoprene. > ... > Otherthan sharpie-dory boats with flat sides, forget it, even then the deck is arced and only spray foam will properly work. > ... > >Bolger and friends use the pink foam insulation as a structural material epoxy sandwhiched between ply on the bottoms of their Birdwatcher and maybe others?? Might be worth a look?? MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29363|26895|2012-11-10 11:53:26|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: ALU BS36|Sikaflex is not a sikkens product as far as I know. Sikaflex, properly manufactured, is highly recommendable as a jointer of differing materials in terms of density and flexibility. The manufacturing part often contains a lot of preparation, solvents, priming, grinding, repriming, dry conditions and definite temperatures to meet mandatory, what makes it an absolute high tech product. With absolute high tech results, though, including rubber-to-rock I suppose (didn't try this yet) Am 09.11.2012 um 14:56 schrieb M.J. Malone: > Do not overlook the extra weight of joints between different materials. The weight of a joint between steel and steel is a little bead of weld. Consider a bolted lap joint. When materials have different unit stiffnesses, the more stretchy material has to be thicker near the joint so it has near the same sheet stiffness, so that, between fasteners, there is less tendency to open gaps disproportionated due to the stretchy material. Then also, in addition to fasteners, the joint may be glued and there will be good force transfer. Imagine cutting a rubber band so it is a long strip and glue half of it to a rock. Now pull on the bitter end. The force transfer is concentrated in a narrow segment of the band just where it meets the rock. On can get a peel failure going pretty easily. > > So the fiberglass would have to be quite thick where it bolts to the metal, and glued, or expect a lot of small leaks. I hear sikaflex is really good to, alternatively, fill and seal between incompatible structures, but, I have been sadly disappointed with other products from sikkens, so I would not risk it on something I never want to service. > > Matt. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29364|29345|2012-11-10 12:01:25|Mark Hamill|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Received a reply about Aerogel--not cheap!! "Pacor is the approved fabricator/distributor for all Aspen Aerogel products, and we would be happy to ship you material from our facility in Bordentown, NJ. I invite you to visit our web site, www.pacorinc.com, for information on our company, products and capabilities. Depending on the quantity you need, you can order our Aerogel products thru our On-Line Store on the web site. Please see attached Standard Length Aerogel Price List for cut-down rolls of 23sf, 70sf and 210sf, which can be shipped via UPS in a day or two. You will see these prices on the web site On-Line Store." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29365|29345|2012-11-10 12:43:25|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Looks interesting, but when I put 'Aerogel' into Wikipedia, it gives me this:- 'Owing to its hygroscopic nature, aerogel feels dry and acts as a strong desiccant. Persons handling aerogel for extended periods should wear gloves to prevent the appearance of dry brittle spots on their skin.' Which suggests that it's more than usually good at soaking up water? And yet the product data says it's hydrophobic. Expensive, too. The one I was looking at was a 'Miothene Frost Blanket', as sold by Speedcrete UK. It's cheap, although as Giuseppe said the extra stuff needed to fit it isn't cheap necessarily, and I take the point about it being hard work compared to spraying in PU foam. Sorry to ask the same question twice, especially in a steel boat building forum, but is there some reason why spray PU foam can't be used in GRP boats? ________________________________ From: Mark Hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2012, 16:04 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation Hi: Do you have a product name?? I found this stuff that looks interesting and am trying to find out price on Van Isle. http://www.aerogel.com/Aspen_Aerogels_Spaceloft.pdf [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29366|29345|2012-11-10 14:25:45|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Am 10.11.2012 um 18:43 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > > Sorry to ask the same question twice, especially in a steel boat building forum, but is there some reason why spray PU foam can't be used in GRP boats? > > __,_.____ I do not see any technical reason why it wouldn't work to bring sprayed PU ontop of a properly prepared GRP, no matter what sort of resin was originally used. The point is: why should You do this? Modern GRP-boats were usually built, at least above waterline, in a sandwich-way, that is an inner and an outer shell, cored with some sort of closed-cell ductile PVC-foam no matter whether it would be a one-off or a whole series. Balsa isn't used any more for years what is a relief, following the multitude of failures it is prone to, more stable or "better" wood would be to heavy as a core-material, waxed paper honeycombs actually are used as a core, but only in aviation and some very freaky regatta quarters, for honeycomb-sandwich is considered definitely unrepairable at all after any sort of water penetration, styrofoam isn't used any longer either for its being a turbo osmosis booster with 'economic' (aka dirt-cheap) polystyrene resins. So PVC foam, cheap and allocatable, and easy to extrude for any maker in addition, ductile and dense, is the material. Working well both with polystyrene snot and high grade West System or CTM epoxies, and any grade in between. Sandwich-hulls grow stronger in spherical build with increasing distance between the shells, given the core would not collapse under multidimensional alternating loads but stay dimensionally stable, keeping the shells exactly where they were meant, following the maths. This leads us to some centimeters of high-density but light core between some millimeters of "strong" aka "weighty" shells. The "sandwich" is already an insulated material so, with the core, usually not needing more of an insulation as a leisure vessel. Any other intended use, longterm all year round liveaboard, sailing high latitudes in terms of most of the time uninhabitable climates like found in British Columbia or Ontario for example (following what I heard lately ;-) does need more of arrangements I'd suppose, no matter which hull material You go for ... return to top line. Cheers and back to metal bending, origamiwise. (0,02 ct) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29367|29345|2012-11-10 15:57:17|Mark Hamill|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|This site sells an a flexible both faces of reflective aluminum 15.7R bubble insulation that is pretty reasonbale and looks to be different than buble insulation I have seen before. Prodex MarkH http://www.insulation4less.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29368|29345|2012-11-10 17:19:22|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... ________________________________ From: Giuseppe Bergman To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2012, 19:25 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation Am 10.11.2012 um 18:43 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > > Sorry to ask the same question twice, especially in a steel boat building forum, but is there some reason why spray PU foam can't be used in GRP boats? > > __,_.____ I do not see any technical reason why it wouldn't work to bring sprayed PU ontop of a properly prepared GRP, no matter what sort of resin was originally used. The point is: why should You do this? Modern GRP-boats were usually built, at least above waterline, in a sandwich-way, that is an inner and an outer shell, cored with some sort of closed-cell ductile PVC-foam no matter whether it would be a one-off or a whole series. Balsa isn't used any more for years what is a relief, following the multitude of failures it is prone to, more stable or "better" wood would be to heavy as a core-material, waxed paper honeycombs actually are used as a core, but only in aviation and some very freaky regatta quarters, for honeycomb-sandwich is considered definitely unrepairable at all after any sort of water penetration, styrofoam isn't used any longer either for its being a turbo osmosis booster with 'economic' (aka dirt-cheap) polystyrene resins. So PVC foam, cheap and allocatable, and easy to extrude for any maker in addition, ductile and dense, is the material. Working well both with polystyrene snot and high grade West System or CTM epoxies, and any grade in between. Sandwich-hulls grow stronger in spherical build with increasing distance between the shells, given the core would not collapse under multidimensional alternating loads but stay dimensionally stable, keeping the shells exactly where they were meant, following the maths. This leads us to some centimeters of high-density but light core between some millimeters of "strong" aka "weighty" shells. The "sandwich" is already an insulated material so, with the core, usually not needing more of an insulation as a leisure vessel. Any other intended use, longterm all year round liveaboard, sailing high latitudes in terms of most of the time uninhabitable climates like found in British Columbia or Ontario for example (following what I heard lately ;-) does need more of arrangements I'd suppose, no matter which hull material You go for ... return to top line. Cheers and back to metal bending, origamiwise. (0,02 ct) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29369|29345|2012-11-10 20:10:59|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Am 10.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > So it is possible to put in an insulation enhancement to a preloved boat, and I'd judge it as highly recommended for an all year round liveaboard, but I see some reasonable amounts of work slithering towards Your general direction, to say the least. Otherwise are most of the cheaper seasoned GRPs not usably furnished for liveaboard at all anyway, so it might be of less importance that You will deinstall most of the furniture before making inroads to the surfaces relevant to insulation ... don't miss any squareinch: It will "rain" from any of Your not-so-well insulated spots permanently all winter. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29370|29345|2012-11-10 21:48:16|Gary H. Lucas|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Ah! My favorite F-ing company. I actually worked for them for one day. They recruited me to work at a customers facility, but first I had to work for a month in their plant. I was hacking up a lung after the first day from all the insulation dust, and my wife pleaded with me to quit. Later I built a machine to make a part they needed, and gave it to my employer to sell to them to help finance his startup. An employee gets hurt on a really bad copy of a machine I built. They have the biggest law firm in NJ write a “Friend of the Court brief” explaining how they are absolutely sure that he got hurt on the machine I built. Then they said they had destroyed the machine because it was so dangerous, and they had no idea where the guy who built the copy was. Fortunately I knew that the other builder was actually working in their maintenance department the whole time. And it was good that the guy who got hurt actually knew his left hand from his right, and actually told the truth. Because the copy was a “right handed” version of my “left handed machine"! It cost me $15,000 after I screamed at MY lawyer that no lawyers were going to get a dime if he didn’t get me out of this farce right now! May they burn in hell with their insulation keeping them warm. Gary H. Lucas From: Mark Hamill Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 12:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation Received a reply about Aerogel--not cheap!! "Pacor is the approved fabricator/distributor for all Aspen Aerogel products, and we would be happy to ship you material from our facility in Bordentown, NJ. I invite you to visit our web site, www.pacorinc.com, for information on our company, products and capabilities. Depending on the quantity you need, you can order our Aerogel products thru our On-Line Store on the web site. Please see attached Standard Length Aerogel Price List for cut-down rolls of 23sf, 70sf and 210sf, which can be shipped via UPS in a day or two. You will see these prices on the web site On-Line Store." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29371|26895|2012-11-11 07:01:04|Tom Pee|Re: ALU BS36|Sikaflex has dozens and maybe hundreds of types of caulks, I have their catalog, which one are you refering to? ------------------------------ On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 8:53 AM PST Giuseppe Bergman wrote: >Sikaflex is not a sikkens product as far as I know. > >Sikaflex, properly manufactured, is highly recommendable as a jointer of differing materials in terms of density and flexibility. > >The manufacturing part often contains a lot of preparation, solvents, priming, grinding, repriming, dry conditions and definite temperatures to meet mandatory, what makes it an absolute high tech product. > >With absolute high tech results, though, including rubber-to-rock I suppose (didn't try this yet) > > > > > > >Am 09.11.2012 um 14:56 schrieb M.J. Malone: > >> Do not overlook the extra weight of joints between different materials. The weight of a joint between steel and steel is a little bead of weld. Consider a bolted lap joint. When materials have different unit stiffnesses, the more stretchy material has to be thicker near the joint so it has near the same sheet stiffness, so that, between fasteners, there is less tendency to open gaps disproportionated due to the stretchy material. Then also, in addition to fasteners, the joint may be glued and there will be good force transfer. Imagine cutting a rubber band so it is a long strip and glue half of it to a rock. Now pull on the bitter end. The force transfer is concentrated in a narrow segment of the band just where it meets the rock. On can get a peel failure going pretty easily. >> >> So the fiberglass would have to be quite thick where it bolts to the metal, and glued, or expect a lot of small leaks. I hear sikaflex is really good to, alternatively, fill and seal between incompatible structures, but, I have been sadly disappointed with other products from sikkens, so I would not risk it on something I never want to service. >> >> Matt. >> >> >> > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29372|29345|2012-11-11 07:32:35|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Yes, I'm looking for something thats been torn down for an internal refit and abandoned, so work will be needed. I have no experience to draw on, but I would expect that foaming a hull with all bonded in bulkheads and vestigial cabin furniture still present should be possible. I may have to talk to an experienced 'sprayer' for advice on wht does and doesn't work. ________________________________ From: Giuseppe Bergman To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 11 November 2012, 1:10 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation Am 10.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > So it is possible to put in an insulation enhancement to a preloved boat, and I'd judge it as highly recommended for an all year round liveaboard, but I see some reasonable amounts of work slithering towards Your general direction, to say the least. Otherwise are most of the cheaper seasoned GRPs not usably furnished for liveaboard at all anyway, so it might be of less importance that You will deinstall most of the furniture before making inroads to the surfaces relevant to insulation ... don't miss any squareinch: It will "rain" from any of Your not-so-well insulated spots permanently all winter. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29373|29345|2012-11-11 07:38:52|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|That sucks. If you were employed by someone, I thought any liability for your work would pass to them. If you were self employed I would hope your liability insurance would have covered you. Sounds like an entire planet of shit heads, apart form the bloke who got hurt, ironically. ________________________________ From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 11 November 2012, 2:50 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation Ah! My favorite F-ing company.  I actually worked for them for one day.  They recruited me to work at a customers facility, but first I had to work for a month in their plant.  I was hacking up a lung after the first day from all the insulation dust, and my wife pleaded with me to quit.  Later I built a machine to make a part they needed, and gave it to my employer to sell to them to help finance his startup. An employee gets hurt on a really bad copy of a machine I built. They have the biggest law firm in NJ write a “Friend of the Court brief” explaining how they are absolutely sure that he got hurt on the machine I built.  Then they said they had destroyed the machine because it was so dangerous, and they had no idea where the guy who built the copy was.  Fortunately I knew that the other builder was actually working in their maintenance department the whole time.  And it was good that the guy who got hurt actually knew his left hand from his right, and actually told the truth.  Because the copy was a “right handed” version of my “left handed machine"!  It cost me $15,000 after I screamed at MY lawyer that no lawyers were going to get a dime if he didn’t get me out of this farce right now! May they burn in hell with their insulation keeping them warm. Gary H. Lucas From: Mark Hamill Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 12:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation   Received a reply about Aerogel--not cheap!! "Pacor is the approved fabricator/distributor for all Aspen Aerogel products, and we would be happy to ship you material from our facility in Bordentown, NJ. I invite you to visit our web site, www.pacorinc.com, for information on our company, products and capabilities. Depending on the quantity you need, you can order our Aerogel products thru our On-Line Store on the web site. Please see attached Standard Length Aerogel Price List for cut-down rolls of 23sf, 70sf and 210sf, which can be shipped via UPS in a day or two. You will see these prices on the web site On-Line Store." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29374|26895|2012-11-11 07:41:25|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: ALU BS36|Ususally we use Sika-Marine products for marine-applications, even if they cost a lot compared to other, less advanced products. Sika Marine (including some pdf-s concerning preparations, manufacturing, troubleshooting, German though): http://deu.sika.com/de/solutions_products/01/01a006.html Sometimes with special problems (like how to glue dural (Harken) to a one-off carbon-aramid-handlaid boom for example ...), we would call the Sika-people in Switzerland or the German importer to ask for proven ideas; like any responsible producer they've a very strenuous branch for observational research and developpement. Those people do have to be paid with the prices as well, while I find they are worth every cent. More instructions (Marine only, German) http://deu.sika.com/de/solutions_products/01/01a006/Marine-Arbeitsanleitungen.html There's supposed to be an importer in America/Canada/Northamerican Continent, but I didn't find those people with my European-German googlebasics ... thanks to goooo...gles consumer-convinience even shutting down ANY preferences and a sort of hidden restart won't help (being just a mouse-torturer, seemingly). ... there actually IS an English part on their Swiss site, but I couldn't find the Marine-section there in English. Sorry 'bout that. http://www.sika.com/en/solutions_products.html I hear from specialized constructioners and automotive-manufacturers that Sika is their choice as well in complex and difficult troubleshooting despite the prices, last not least for the fact that the Sika-people do help if asked. Am 11.11.2012 um 13:01 schrieb Tom Pee: > > Sikaflex has dozens and maybe hundreds of types of caulks, I have their catalog, which one are you refering to? > > ------------------------------ > On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 8:53 AM PST Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > >Sikaflex is not a sikkens product as far as I know. > > > >Sikaflex, properly manufactured, is highly recommendable as a jointer of differing materials in terms of density and flexibility. > > > >The manufacturing part often contains a lot of preparation, solvents, priming, grinding, repriming, dry conditions and definite temperatures to meet mandatory, what makes it an absolute high tech product. > > > >With absolute high tech results, though, including rubber-to-rock I suppose (didn't try this yet) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Am 09.11.2012 um 14:56 schrieb M.J. Malone: > > > >> Do not overlook the extra weight of joints between different materials. The weight of a joint between steel and steel is a little bead of weld. Consider a bolted lap joint. When materials have different unit stiffnesses, the more stretchy material has to be thicker near the joint so it has near the same sheet stiffness, so that, between fasteners, there is less tendency to open gaps disproportionated due to the stretchy material. Then also, in addition to fasteners, the joint may be glued and there will be good force transfer. Imagine cutting a rubber band so it is a long strip and glue half of it to a rock. Now pull on the bitter end. The force transfer is concentrated in a narrow segment of the band just where it meets the rock. On can get a peel failure going pretty easily. > >> > >> So the fiberglass would have to be quite thick where it bolts to the metal, and glued, or expect a lot of small leaks. I hear sikaflex is really good to, alternatively, fill and seal between incompatible structures, but, I have been sadly disappointed with other products from sikkens, so I would not risk it on something I never want to service. > >> > >> Matt. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29375|26895|2012-11-11 13:44:56|Aaron|Re: ALU BS36|I bought some 5200 that was made by 3M ________________________________ From: Tom Pee To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 3:01 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36   Sikaflex has dozens and maybe hundreds of types of caulks, I have their catalog, which one are you refering to? ------------------------------ On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 8:53 AM PST Giuseppe Bergman wrote: >Sikaflex is not a sikkens product as far as I know. > >Sikaflex, properly manufactured, is highly recommendable as a jointer of differing materials in terms of density and flexibility. > >The manufacturing part often contains a lot of preparation, solvents, priming, grinding, repriming, dry conditions and definite temperatures to meet mandatory, what makes it an absolute high tech product. > >With absolute high tech results, though, including rubber-to-rock I suppose (didn't try this yet) > > > > > > >Am 09.11.2012 um 14:56 schrieb M.J. Malone: > >> Do not overlook the extra weight of joints between different materials. The weight of a joint between steel and steel is a little bead of weld. Consider a bolted lap joint. When materials have different unit stiffnesses, the more stretchy material has to be thicker near the joint so it has near the same sheet stiffness, so that, between fasteners, there is less tendency to open gaps disproportionated due to the stretchy material. Then also, in addition to fasteners, the joint may be glued and there will be good force transfer. Imagine cutting a rubber band so it is a long strip and glue half of it to a rock. Now pull on the bitter end. The force transfer is concentrated in a narrow segment of the band just where it meets the rock. On can get a peel failure going pretty easily. >> >> So the fiberglass would have to be quite thick where it bolts to the metal, and glued, or expect a lot of small leaks. I hear sikaflex is really good to, alternatively, fill and seal between incompatible structures, but, I have been sadly disappointed with other products from sikkens, so I would not risk it on something I never want to service. >> >> Matt. >> >> >> > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29376|26895|2012-11-11 15:13:38|Paul Wilson|Re: ALU BS36|Sika products are very good but usually extremely expensive with a limited shelf life of 1 year to 6 months. I think the expense is due to so much of it getting tossed out. Sometimes you can get old stock on sale but chances are it will be hard in the tube when you go to use it. Some of the products like their plexiglass and teak caulk require primers which can be more expensive than the caulk. If something isn't critical or specialized, I try to avoid Sika thinking it will only encourage them...:). Cheers, Paul On 12/11/2012 1:41 a.m., Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > Ususally we use Sika-Marine products for marine-applications, even if they cost a lot compared to other, less advanced products. > > Sika Marine (including some pdf-s concerning preparations, manufacturing, troubleshooting, German though): > > http://deu.sika.com/de/solutions_products/01/01a006.html > > Sometimes with special problems (like how to glue dural (Harken) to a one-off carbon-aramid-handlaid boom for example ...), we would call the Sika-people in Switzerland or the German importer to ask for proven ideas; > like any responsible producer they've a very strenuous branch for observational research and developpement. > Those people do have to be paid with the prices as well, while I find they are worth every cent. > > More instructions (Marine only, German) > > http://deu.sika.com/de/solutions_products/01/01a006/Marine-Arbeitsanleitungen.html > > There's supposed to be an importer in America/Canada/Northamerican Continent, but I didn't find those people with my European-German googlebasics ... thanks to goooo...gles consumer-convinience even shutting down ANY preferences and a sort of hidden restart won't help (being just a mouse-torturer, seemingly). > > ... there actually IS an English part on their Swiss site, but I couldn't find the Marine-section there in English. Sorry 'bout that. > > http://www.sika.com/en/solutions_products.html > > I hear from specialized constructioners and automotive-manufacturers that Sika is their choice as well in complex and difficult troubleshooting despite the prices, last not least for the fact that the Sika-people do help if asked. > > > > | 29377|26895|2012-11-11 15:20:51|Tom Pee|Re: ALU BS36|Will look over catalog and see if mention is made regarding marine use. ________________________________ From: Giuseppe Bergman To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 Ususally we use Sika-Marine products for marine-applications, even if they cost a lot compared to other, less advanced products. Sika Marine (including some pdf-s concerning preparations, manufacturing, troubleshooting, German though): http://deu.sika.com/de/solutions_products/01/01a006.html Sometimes with special problems (like how to glue dural (Harken) to a one-off carbon-aramid-handlaid boom for example ...), we would call the Sika-people in Switzerland or the German importer to ask for proven ideas; like any responsible producer they've a very strenuous branch for observational research and developpement. Those people do have to be paid with the prices as well, while I find they are worth every cent. More instructions (Marine only, German) http://deu.sika.com/de/solutions_products/01/01a006/Marine-Arbeitsanleitungen.html There's supposed to be an importer in America/Canada/Northamerican Continent, but I didn't find those people with my European-German googlebasics ... thanks to goooo...gles consumer-convinience even shutting down ANY preferences and a sort of hidden restart won't help (being just a mouse-torturer, seemingly). ... there actually IS an English part on their Swiss site, but I couldn't find the Marine-section there in English. Sorry 'bout that. http://www.sika.com/en/solutions_products.html I hear from specialized constructioners and automotive-manufacturers that Sika is their choice as well in complex and difficult troubleshooting despite the prices, last not least for the fact that the Sika-people do help if asked. Am 11.11.2012 um 13:01 schrieb Tom Pee: > > Sikaflex has dozens and maybe hundreds of types of caulks, I have their catalog, which one are you refering to? > > ------------------------------ > On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 8:53 AM PST Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > >Sikaflex is not a sikkens product as far as I know. > > > >Sikaflex, properly manufactured, is highly recommendable as a jointer of differing materials in terms of density and flexibility. > > > >The manufacturing part often contains a lot of preparation, solvents, priming, grinding, repriming, dry conditions and definite temperatures to meet mandatory, what makes it an absolute high tech product. > > > >With absolute high tech results, though, including rubber-to-rock I suppose (didn't try this yet) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Am 09.11.2012 um 14:56 schrieb M.J. Malone: > > > >> Do not overlook the extra weight of joints between different materials. The weight of a joint between steel and steel is a little bead of weld. Consider a bolted lap joint. When materials have different unit stiffnesses, the more stretchy material has to be thicker near the joint so it has near the same sheet stiffness, so that, between fasteners, there is less tendency to open gaps disproportionated due to the stretchy material. Then also, in addition to fasteners, the joint may be glued and there will be good force transfer. Imagine cutting a rubber band so it is a long strip and glue half of it to a rock. Now pull on the bitter end. The force transfer is concentrated in a narrow segment of the band just where it meets the rock. On can get a peel failure going pretty easily. > >> > >> So the fiberglass would have to be quite thick where it bolts to the metal, and glued, or expect a lot of small leaks. I hear sikaflex is really good to, alternatively, fill and seal between incompatible structures, but, I have been sadly disappointed with other products from sikkens, so I would not risk it on something I never want to service. > >> > >> Matt. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29378|26895|2012-11-11 16:44:25|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|Home hardware has lepages bull dog grip, polyurethane roofing and flashing cement, which appears to be every bit as good a sikaflex, and is around $7 a tube. Avoid the cheaper construction adhesive . It is nowhere near as good and only comes in beige. The good stuff comes in black or white. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Sika products are very good but usually extremely expensive with a > limited shelf life of 1 year to 6 months. I think the expense is due to > so much of it getting tossed out. Sometimes you can get old stock on > sale but chances are it will be hard in the tube when you go to use it. > Some of the products like their plexiglass and teak caulk require > primers which can be more expensive than the caulk. > > If something isn't critical or specialized, I try to avoid Sika thinking > it will only encourage them...:). > > Cheers, Paul > > On 12/11/2012 1:41 a.m., Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > Ususally we use Sika-Marine products for marine-applications, even if they cost a lot compared to other, less advanced products. > > > > Sika Marine (including some pdf-s concerning preparations, manufacturing, troubleshooting, German though): > > > > http://deu.sika.com/de/solutions_products/01/01a006.html > > > > Sometimes with special problems (like how to glue dural (Harken) to a one-off carbon-aramid-handlaid boom for example ...), we would call the Sika-people in Switzerland or the German importer to ask for proven ideas; > > like any responsible producer they've a very strenuous branch for observational research and developpement. > > Those people do have to be paid with the prices as well, while I find they are worth every cent. > > > > More instructions (Marine only, German) > > > > http://deu.sika.com/de/solutions_products/01/01a006/Marine-Arbeitsanleitungen.html > > > > There's supposed to be an importer in America/Canada/Northamerican Continent, but I didn't find those people with my European-German googlebasics ... thanks to goooo...gles consumer-convinience even shutting down ANY preferences and a sort of hidden restart won't help (being just a mouse-torturer, seemingly). > > > > ... there actually IS an English part on their Swiss site, but I couldn't find the Marine-section there in English. Sorry 'bout that. > > > > http://www.sika.com/en/solutions_products.html > > > > I hear from specialized constructioners and automotive-manufacturers that Sika is their choice as well in complex and difficult troubleshooting despite the prices, last not least for the fact that the Sika-people do help if asked. > > > > > > > > > | 29379|29323|2012-11-11 16:47:51|brentswain38|Re: stove top material|Depends on how thick it is. 16 guage doesnt hold in much heat. Put your hand on the thin part of mine to check it out. With steel, you have to go much thicker to allow for corrosion. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > I find it interesting that stainless steel would act as a good heat-transfer medium, compared to mild steel. The thermal conductivity of stainless steel is about 1/3 of that of mild steel and 1/4 that of iron. > > http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html > > Perhaps the benefit came in replacing a portion of a 'thick' iron/steel stove top with a 'thin' stainless steel area. I could imagine that a thin section of steel would conduct heat better than a thin one of stainless, but stainless would undoubtedly resist burning out better than one made of mild steel. > > I wonder how a copper or bronze disk would hold up to the heat? It would certainly conduct heat much faster, but might be hard to weld! > > John > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > A friend, building a stove for the NW passage trip, said he wanted a lid to get a hot spot to cook on. I suggested he cut the hole out, them weld a thin piece of stainless over it.He said that worked extremely well almost as good as putting the pot on an open flame. > > I've since done the same with my stove. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > this is true, I made my stove out of 1/4in. plate and heat has difficulty passing trough, maybe if I remove some of the stones inside it will heat more? > > > Martin. > | 29380|26895|2012-11-12 09:34:05|Tom Mann|Re: ALU BS36|Aluminum prices go up and down quick, for a rough questimate figure about $3 a pound little more for 5086 and little less for 5052 and if you buy over 1000 Lbs of the same size and grade you get a little better price. I did some rough calculations on the cabin-cockpit on the 26' 128 sq foot not counting cabin front or back, figuring 1/8" aluminum vs 12 gage steel is about 350 Lbs difference On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:44 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Home hardware has lepages bull dog grip, polyurethane roofing and > flashing cement, which appears to be every bit as good a sikaflex, and is > around $7 a tube. Avoid the cheaper construction adhesive . It is nowhere > near as good and only comes in beige. The good stuff comes in black or > white. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Sika products are very good but usually extremely expensive with a > > limited shelf life of 1 year to 6 months. I think the expense is due to > > so much of it getting tossed out. Sometimes you can get old stock on > > sale but chances are it will be hard in the tube when you go to use it. > > Some of the products like their plexiglass and teak caulk require > > primers which can be more expensive than the caulk. > > > > If something isn't critical or specialized, I try to avoid Sika thinking > > it will only encourage them...:). > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > On 12/11/2012 1:41 a.m., Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > Ususally we use Sika-Marine products for marine-applications, even if > they cost a lot compared to other, less advanced products. > > > > > > Sika Marine (including some pdf-s concerning preparations, > manufacturing, troubleshooting, German though): > > > > > > http://deu.sika.com/de/solutions_products/01/01a006.html > > > > > > Sometimes with special problems (like how to glue dural (Harken) to a > one-off carbon-aramid-handlaid boom for example ...), we would call the > Sika-people in Switzerland or the German importer to ask for proven ideas; > > > like any responsible producer they've a very strenuous branch for > observational research and developpement. > > > Those people do have to be paid with the prices as well, while I find > they are worth every cent. > > > > > > More instructions (Marine only, German) > > > > > > > http://deu.sika.com/de/solutions_products/01/01a006/Marine-Arbeitsanleitungen.html > > > > > > There's supposed to be an importer in America/Canada/Northamerican > Continent, but I didn't find those people with my European-German > googlebasics ... thanks to goooo...gles consumer-convinience even shutting > down ANY preferences and a sort of hidden restart won't help (being just a > mouse-torturer, seemingly). > > > > > > ... there actually IS an English part on their Swiss site, but I > couldn't find the Marine-section there in English. Sorry 'bout that. > > > > > > http://www.sika.com/en/solutions_products.html > > > > > > I hear from specialized constructioners and automotive-manufacturers > that Sika is their choice as well in complex and difficult troubleshooting > despite the prices, last not least for the fact that the Sika-people do > help if asked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29381|29345|2012-11-12 09:48:23|mkriley48|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|I have used foam in a can and it sticks like "shit to a blanket" I am sure the commercial stuff will too. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > > > Yes, I'm looking for something thats been torn down for an internal refit and abandoned, so work will be needed. I have no experience to draw on, but I would expect that foaming a hull with all bonded in bulkheads and vestigial cabin furniture still present should be possible. I may have to talk to an experienced 'sprayer' for advice on wht does and doesn't work. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Giuseppe Bergman > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, 11 November 2012, 1:10 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > > > Am 10.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > > > > So it is possible to put in an insulation enhancement to a preloved boat, and I'd judge it as highly recommended for an all year round liveaboard, but I see some reasonable amounts of work slithering towards Your general direction, to say the least. > > Otherwise are most of the cheaper seasoned GRPs not usably furnished for liveaboard at all anyway, so it might be of less importance that You will deinstall most of the furniture before making inroads to the surfaces relevant to insulation ... don't miss any squareinch: It will "rain" from any of Your not-so-well insulated spots permanently all winter. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29382|29345|2012-11-12 16:44:19|brentswain38|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Foam in can is far more absorbent than spray foam, and soaks up water like a sponge, especially over aluminium. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > I have used foam in a can and it sticks like "shit to a blanket" > I am sure the commercial stuff will too. > mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Yes, I'm looking for something thats been torn down for an internal refit and abandoned, so work will be needed. I have no experience to draw on, but I would expect that foaming a hull with all bonded in bulkheads and vestigial cabin furniture still present should be possible. I may have to talk to an experienced 'sprayer' for advice on wht does and doesn't work. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Giuseppe Bergman > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, 11 November 2012, 1:10 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > > > > > > Am 10.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb richard.barwell@: > > > > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > > > > > > > > > So it is possible to put in an insulation enhancement to a preloved boat, and I'd judge it as highly recommended for an all year round liveaboard, but I see some reasonable amounts of work slithering towards Your general direction, to say the least. > > > > Otherwise are most of the cheaper seasoned GRPs not usably furnished for liveaboard at all anyway, so it might be of less importance that You will deinstall most of the furniture before making inroads to the surfaces relevant to insulation ... don't miss any squareinch: It will "rain" from any of Your not-so-well insulated spots permanently all winter. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 29383|26895|2012-11-12 16:47:11|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|Any wood on the outside of a metal boat is a big mistake , increasing corrosion under it, and giving you far more maintenance problems there than on all the rest of the boat combined. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > In fiberglass I would be inclined to trim the joint outside with say 1"x > 3" wood trim or an aluminum trim. > If I do mine in aluminum I may make the flange a bit different, rather > than have all the bolts exposed I may just run a internal flange at the > top, 90% to the flange coming off the deck then trough bolt aluminum strip > on top of that flange flush with outside, clamp the cabin sides on > overlapping the deck flange 2" or so and then the cabin sides get welded to > the aluminum strip. Kill 3 birds with one stone, all bolts would be on > inside, no moisture trap, and would give me a good flange to land the cabin > framing to without creating hard spots"stress riser" > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 5:56 AM, M.J. Malone wrote: > > > Do not overlook the extra weight of joints between different materials. > > The weight of a joint between steel and steel is a little bead of weld. > > Consider a bolted lap joint. When materials have different unit > > stiffnesses, the more stretchy material has to be thicker near the joint so > > it has near the same sheet stiffness, so that, between fasteners, there is > > less tendency to open gaps disproportionated due to the stretchy material. > > Then also, in addition to fasteners, the joint may be glued and there will > > be good force transfer. Imagine cutting a rubber band so it is a long > > strip and glue half of it to a rock. Now pull on the bitter end. The > > force transfer is concentrated in a narrow segment of the band just where > > it meets the rock. On can get a peel failure going pretty easily. > > > > So the fiberglass would have to be quite thick where it bolts to the > > metal, and glued, or expect a lot of small leaks. I hear sikaflex is > > really good to, alternatively, fill and seal between incompatible > > structures, but, I have been sadly disappointed with other products from > > sikkens, so I would not risk it on something I never want to service. > > > > Matt > > > > Tom Mann wrote: > > > > Well Gary you just have to weigh the pro's and con's and if you don't like > > it don't do it > > The 26' is a heavy boat and you have to really watch your weights if you > > want to keep it at it's displacement. > > adding a pilot house adds even more. If I can go bigger cabin and shave off > > about 500 Lbs at the same time that's a big pro > > > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Gary H. Lucas > >wrote: > > > > > You know what leaks and fails on boats of any material. JOINTS! You > > guys > > > want take a structure with an absolute minimum of joints and make big > > > joints, lots of bolt holes etc.? If fiber glass boats didn't have joints > > > between the deck and hull, at all the chain plates, at every lifeline > > > stanchion, and every pulpit and push pit, it would have almost no leaks > > at > > > all, and it would last probably hundreds of years. Same goes for > > aluminum, > > > steel, monel, etc., but not wood! > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 9:33 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > I wouldn't think flexing or leaking would be a problem using ether > > plywood > > > or aluminum. With the wide flange in my case 4" overlapping 3" leaving 1" > > > clearance off the deck using aluminum with about 2-1/2" bolt spacing it > > > would basically become one unit with a 3" wide gasket-bedding compound it > > > would take a lot for it to leak. corrosion at the flange would be the > > > biggest problem that's where the stainless would help. Just something you > > > would have to keep an eye on. > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:14 AM, martin demers > > mdemers2005%40hotmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I too more leaning toward akuminium, mainly for weight saving but since > > > > it needs special equipment to weld it and also because of the high > > price > > > of > > > > aluminium , it made me think of fiberglass. Working with fiberglass is > > > > accessible to anyone without any special equipmentPlywood covered with > > > > fibeglass would be a fast and cheap way to raise pilothouse, but how > > long > > > > before it starts to leak like Brent suggested is another story. And the > > > > possibility of twisting... > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > From: mailto:tazmannm%40gmail.com > > > > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:42:14 -0800 > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep a foam cored cabin would defiantly save a lot of weight, Last I > > > > > > > > looked the foam sheets were pretty pricey though . > > > > > > > > Wife and I are thinking maybe convert mine to pilot house, If we do > > what > > > > > > > > I might do is cut the cabin off leaving about a 4" flange to bolt to. > > > > > > > > Tossup using aluminum or glass/plywood . leaning more toward aluminum > > , I > > > > > > > > have built a couple small boats from it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:13 PM, brentswain38 > > brentswain38%40hotmail.com > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I would go for stainless on the flange as you don' have many > > > > > > > > > options to check it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann > ...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would be > > a > > > > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > > option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " > > > > flange > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue > > > method > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and > > > epoxy, > > > > > > > > > > unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if > > wanted, > > > > For > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for > > leave > > > > > > > > > > clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers > > ...>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare to > > > > > > > > > > > aluminium. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > From: m_j_malone@ > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the > > > heck > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat > > > > > > > > > construction > > > > > > > > > > > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built > > > > up > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck > > > > > > > > > hardware, > > > > > > > > > > > steel just seems so much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with > > > some > > > > > > > > > > > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck > > > "closes > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the > > > > top > > > > > > > > > > > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some > > > > > > > > > care, the > > > > > > > > > > > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, > > > > then, > > > > > > > > > > > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more > > > > > > > > > resistant > > > > > > > > > > > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more > > easily > > > > > > > > > oil-can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, > > > > absorbing a > > > > > > > > > > > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and fibreglass > > > do > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like > > > > > > > > > > > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays > > bent > > > > > > > > > like a > > > > > > > > > > > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of > > > > stress > > > > > > > > > > > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some > > > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > > > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel > > > mesh > > > > > > > > > to the > > > > > > > > > > > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass > > near > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other > > > > unexplored > > > > > > > > > > > failures, wicking of water, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that > > the > > > > hull > > > > > > > > > > > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and > > starving > > > > the > > > > > > > > > fire > > > > > > > > > > > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a > > very > > > > > > > > > small > > > > > > > > > > > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air > > > in, > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that > > have > > > > > > > > > > > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in > > Texas: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://coronadream.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the sail > > > > > > > > > cover a > > > > > > > > > > > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, > > tear-out, > > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his > > > > website > > > > > > > > > > > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the > > > > > > > > > engine, > > > > > > > > > > > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But steel is just easier to build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad > > > > idea??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the > > > > > > > > > hull, > > > > > > > > > > > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho going > > > for > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher > > > above > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum deck.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better > > > > welding > > > > > > > > > > > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less paint. > > It > > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > > > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and > > the > > > > > > > > > welds > > > > > > > > > > > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there > > > > > > > > > could be > > > > > > > > > > > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an > > > alloy > > > > > > > > > mast > > > > > > > > > > > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues everywhere > > > > else, > > > > > > > > > > > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The > > > > > > > > > aluminium > > > > > > > > > > > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in > > the > > > > > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is > > > slow, > > > > > > > > > > > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to instantly > > > > form > > > > > > > > > and, > > > > > > > > > > > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of this > > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of sea > > > > > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more > > > > compatible > > > > > > > > > > > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable in > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust stains > > > > where > > > > > > > > > > > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some > > > > attention > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of > > > > > > > > > aluminium > > > > > > > > > > > over steel are easily compensated for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are steel > > > > work > > > > > > > > > > > boats. No problem is insurmountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: > > > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: > > > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29384|26895|2012-11-12 16:48:44|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|A wood deck on any metal hull is a huge mistake. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > http://www.georgebuehler.com/Wood%20Decks%20on%20Steel%20Hulls.html > > If interested Buehler has some drawings of wood deck on steel hull, looks > pretty stout but all up weight saving vs 1/8" steel ? I don't think you > would save much > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Tom Mann wrote: > > > In fiberglass I would be inclined to trim the joint outside with say 1"x > > 3" wood trim or an aluminum trim. > > If I do mine in aluminum I may make the flange a bit different, rather > > than have all the bolts exposed I may just run a internal flange at the > > top, 90% to the flange coming off the deck then trough bolt aluminum strip > > on top of that flange flush with outside, clamp the cabin sides on > > overlapping the deck flange 2" or so and then the cabin sides get welded to > > the aluminum strip. Kill 3 birds with one stone, all bolts would be on > > inside, no moisture trap, and would give me a good flange to land the cabin > > framing to without creating hard spots"stress riser" > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 5:56 AM, M.J. Malone wrote: > > > >> Do not overlook the extra weight of joints between different materials. > >> The weight of a joint between steel and steel is a little bead of weld. > >> Consider a bolted lap joint. When materials have different unit > >> stiffnesses, the more stretchy material has to be thicker near the joint so > >> it has near the same sheet stiffness, so that, between fasteners, there is > >> less tendency to open gaps disproportionated due to the stretchy material. > >> Then also, in addition to fasteners, the joint may be glued and there will > >> be good force transfer. Imagine cutting a rubber band so it is a long > >> strip and glue half of it to a rock. Now pull on the bitter end. The > >> force transfer is concentrated in a narrow segment of the band just where > >> it meets the rock. On can get a peel failure going pretty easily. > >> > >> So the fiberglass would have to be quite thick where it bolts to the > >> metal, and glued, or expect a lot of small leaks. I hear sikaflex is > >> really good to, alternatively, fill and seal between incompatible > >> structures, but, I have been sadly disappointed with other products from > >> sikkens, so I would not risk it on something I never want to service. > >> > >> Matt > >> > >> Tom Mann wrote: > >> > >> Well Gary you just have to weigh the pro's and con's and if you don't > >> like > >> it don't do it > >> The 26' is a heavy boat and you have to really watch your weights if you > >> want to keep it at it's displacement. > >> adding a pilot house adds even more. If I can go bigger cabin and shave > >> off > >> about 500 Lbs at the same time that's a big pro > >> > >> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Gary H. Lucas >> >wrote: > >> > >> > You know what leaks and fails on boats of any material. JOINTS! You > >> guys > >> > want take a structure with an absolute minimum of joints and make big > >> > joints, lots of bolt holes etc.? If fiber glass boats didn't have > >> joints > >> > between the deck and hull, at all the chain plates, at every lifeline > >> > stanchion, and every pulpit and push pit, it would have almost no leaks > >> at > >> > all, and it would last probably hundreds of years. Same goes for > >> aluminum, > >> > steel, monel, etc., but not wood! > >> > > >> > Gary H. Lucas > >> > > >> > > >> > From: Tom Mann > >> > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 9:33 PM > >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > >> > > >> > > >> > Martin > >> > I wouldn't think flexing or leaking would be a problem using ether > >> plywood > >> > or aluminum. With the wide flange in my case 4" overlapping 3" leaving > >> 1" > >> > clearance off the deck using aluminum with about 2-1/2" bolt spacing it > >> > would basically become one unit with a 3" wide gasket-bedding compound > >> it > >> > would take a lot for it to leak. corrosion at the flange would be the > >> > biggest problem that's where the stainless would help. Just something > >> you > >> > would have to keep an eye on. > >> > > >> > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:14 AM, martin demers >> > mdemers2005%40hotmail.com>wrote: > >> > > >> > > > >> > > I too more leaning toward akuminium, mainly for weight saving but > >> since > >> > > it needs special equipment to weld it and also because of the high > >> price > >> > of > >> > > aluminium , it made me think of fiberglass. Working with fiberglass is > >> > > accessible to anyone without any special equipmentPlywood covered with > >> > > fibeglass would be a fast and cheap way to raise pilothouse, but how > >> long > >> > > before it starts to leak like Brent suggested is another story. And > >> the > >> > > possibility of twisting... > >> > > Martin. > >> > > > >> > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > >> > > From: mailto:tazmannm%40gmail.com > >> > > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:42:14 -0800 > >> > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Yep a foam cored cabin would defiantly save a lot of weight, Last I > >> > > > >> > > looked the foam sheets were pretty pricey though . > >> > > > >> > > Wife and I are thinking maybe convert mine to pilot house, If we do > >> what > >> > > > >> > > I might do is cut the cabin off leaving about a 4" flange to bolt to. > >> > > > >> > > Tossup using aluminum or glass/plywood . leaning more toward aluminum > >> , I > >> > > > >> > > have built a couple small boats from it > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:13 PM, brentswain38 >> > brentswain38%40hotmail.com > >> > > >wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > I think I would go for stainless on the flange as you don' have many > >> > > > >> > > > options to check it. > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann >> ...> > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Seems to me a fiberglass- wood/fiberglass cabin structure would > >> be a > >> > > > >> > > > good > >> > > > >> > > > > option, lighter than aluminum, cost wise proly a tossup, 3 or 4 " > >> > > flange > >> > > > >> > > > on > >> > > > >> > > > > iner deck edge then bolt on plywood and use the stitch and glue > >> > method > >> > > to > >> > > > >> > > > > build cabin, glass up the outside with a good biaxial cloth and > >> > epoxy, > >> > > > >> > > > > unbolt and flip it over a do a layer or two on the inside if > >> wanted, > >> > > For > >> > > > >> > > > a > >> > > > >> > > > > solid fiberglass layup do the same with the plywood except for > >> leave > >> > > > >> > > > > clearance unbolt and flip it over and use for female mold. > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:12 AM, martin demers >> > ...>wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > I did not thought of fire, only weight saving and cost compare > >> to > >> > > > >> > > > > > aluminium. > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > >> > > > >> > > > > > From: m_j_malone@ > >> > > > >> > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:51:00 -0500 > >> > > > >> > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > A practical reason not to have a fibreglass deck is, how in the > >> > heck > >> > > > >> > > > are > >> > > > >> > > > > > you going to make it ? Upside down in some mould like boat > >> > > > >> > > > construction > >> > > > >> > > > > > companies do ? Then lift it in place in one piece ? Steel, built > >> > > up > >> > > > >> > > > from > >> > > > >> > > > > > sections, seems far easier. When one considers attaching deck > >> > > > >> > > > hardware, > >> > > > >> > > > > > steel just seems so much easier. > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > One of the advantages of steel is being able to withstand (with > >> > some > >> > > > >> > > > > > denting and twisting) even some impacts. Having a steel deck > >> > "closes > >> > > > >> > > > the > >> > > > >> > > > > > box". Open the top of a cardboard box and flex it. Then tape the > >> > > top > >> > > > >> > > > > > flaps down, then try to flex it.... big difference. Without some > >> > > > >> > > > care, the > >> > > > >> > > > > > fibreglass deck could be a weak closure of the top of the box. > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > If the fibreglass was thick enough to effectively close the box, > >> > > then, > >> > > > >> > > > > > because it would be much thicker, locally, it would be far more > >> > > > >> > > > resistant > >> > > > >> > > > > > to buckling. Steel, between ribs, being thinner, would more > >> easily > >> > > > >> > > > oil-can. > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > Fibreglass can be plenty strong and can deflect a long way, > >> > > absorbing a > >> > > > >> > > > > > lot of energy, before breaking/tearing, but, steel and > >> fibreglass > >> > do > >> > > > >> > > > that > >> > > > >> > > > > > differently. Fibreglass bends like a fishing rod, stretches like > >> > > > >> > > > > > spagetti, with no permanent deflection. Steel bends and stays > >> bent > >> > > > >> > > > like a > >> > > > >> > > > > > coat hanger. The problem is the joint. There will be a lot of > >> > > stress > >> > > > >> > > > > > there, and it is a likely failure point. I can think of some > >> > > > >> > > > interesting > >> > > > >> > > > > > ways to join steel and fibreglass, like welding skirts of steel > >> > mesh > >> > > > >> > > > to the > >> > > > >> > > > > > steel to act as re-bar / increased bond area in the fibreglass > >> near > >> > > the > >> > > > >> > > > > > joint but that is just impractical to do, and prone to other > >> > > unexplored > >> > > > >> > > > > > failures, wicking of water, etc. > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > Lastly, one of the advantages of steel is the possibility that > >> the > >> > > hull > >> > > > >> > > > > > will survive a small fire at sea by sealing the cabin and > >> starving > >> > > the > >> > > > >> > > > fire > >> > > > >> > > > > > of air. Fibreglass is combustible enough that, unless it is a > >> very > >> > > > >> > > > small > >> > > > >> > > > > > fire, one will soon have holes in the deck, which will allow air > >> > in, > >> > > > >> > > > and > >> > > > >> > > > > > the fire to continue to burn. There are fibreglass boats that > >> have > >> > > > >> > > > > > survived fires, like a sister boat to mine "Corona Dream" in > >> Texas: > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > http://coronadream.com/ > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > http://seaknots.ning.com/m/photo?id=900123%3APhoto%3A59496 > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > You can see where the fire came out the hatch and burned the > >> sail > >> > > > >> > > > cover a > >> > > > >> > > > > > little. His old website had pictures from after the burn, > >> tear-out, > >> > > > >> > > > then > >> > > > >> > > > > > the start of the refit. I saved those off-line before the his > >> > > website > >> > > > >> > > > > > changed providers. That boat had an engine fire that totaled the > >> > > > >> > > > engine, > >> > > > >> > > > > > damaged all the interior, but, the hull and exterior was fine. > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > But steel is just easier to build. > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > Matt > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > From: mdemers2005@ > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 05:48:14 -0500 > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > Fiberglass as a cabin top on a steel sailboat???? good or bad > >> > > idea??? > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > Martin. > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > From: brentswain38@ > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:59:21 +0000 > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > As the hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the > >> > > > >> > > > hull, > >> > > > >> > > > > > I'd make the transition at the deck cabin side joint, altho > >> going > >> > for > >> > > > >> > > > an > >> > > > >> > > > > > aluminium cabin top on a steel cabin side gets the joint higher > >> > above > >> > > > >> > > > the > >> > > > >> > > > > > corrosive seawater, and less leak prone. > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > My ideal boat would be a steel hull with an aluminum > >> deck.... > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > Paul > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > On 2/11/2012 8:04 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > An aluminium boat requires a higher cost material, better > >> > > welding > >> > > > >> > > > > > equipment, better attention to welding, and possibly less > >> paint. It > >> > > > >> > > > has > >> > > > >> > > > > > the flaw that the welds are not as strong as the raw metal, and > >> the > >> > > > >> > > > welds > >> > > > >> > > > > > may not be as corrosion resistant as the raw metal. Though there > >> > > > >> > > > could be > >> > > > >> > > > > > less bi-metal corrosion issues at the mast-hull interface if an > >> > alloy > >> > > > >> > > > mast > >> > > > >> > > > > > is used, there would be more bi-metal corrosion issues > >> everywhere > >> > > else, > >> > > > >> > > > > > with every high strength fastener or bit of gear you add. The > >> > > > >> > > > aluminium > >> > > > >> > > > > > alloy may not be stable in the presence of leakage currents in > >> the > >> > > > >> > > > water. > >> > > > >> > > > > > Aluminium has to be protected from chafe because, though it is > >> > slow, > >> > > > >> > > > > > polishing off the protective oxide causes more oxide to > >> instantly > >> > > form > >> > > > >> > > > and, > >> > > > >> > > > > > sooner or later, a hole can be worn through the boat. All of > >> this > >> > > > >> > > > so > >> > > > >> > > > > > that the base material is naturally stable in the presence of > >> sea > >> > > > >> > > > water. > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > Steel has fewer draw-backs and costs, and will be more > >> > > compatible > >> > > > >> > > > > > with other high-strength materials. It is not naturally stable > >> in > >> > > the > >> > > > >> > > > > > presence of seawater, however, white paint shows nice rust > >> stains > >> > > where > >> > > > >> > > > > > ever there is a breach in the paint needing attention. Some > >> > > attention > >> > > > >> > > > at > >> > > > >> > > > > > the beginning in construction, and, it seems the advantages of > >> > > > >> > > > aluminium > >> > > > >> > > > > > over steel are easily compensated for. > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > There are a lot of aluminium work boats, as there are > >> steel > >> > > work > >> > > > >> > > > > > boats. No problem is insurmountable. > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > Matt > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: > >> > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > > > >> > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: > >> > origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > >> > > > >> > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > > > >> > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto: > >> origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > >> > > > >> > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > > > >> > > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups > >> Links > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > >> > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > >> > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Gary H. Lucas > >> > > >> > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------ > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29385|29345|2012-11-12 16:51:58|brentswain38|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|A well insulated boat with no leaks and a good heat source can be extremely comfortable in the coldest conditions. If you are not comfortable aboard in any conditions, you are definitely doing something wrong. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Giuseppe Bergman > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2012, 19:25 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > > > Am 10.11.2012 um 18:43 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > > > > > Sorry to ask the same question twice, especially in a steel boat building forum, but is there some reason why spray PU foam can't be used in GRP boats? > > > > __,_.____ > > > > > I do not see any technical reason why it wouldn't work to bring sprayed PU ontop of a properly prepared GRP, no matter what sort of resin was originally used. > > The point is: why should You do this? > > Modern GRP-boats were usually built, at least above waterline, in a sandwich-way, that is an inner and an outer shell, cored with some sort of closed-cell ductile PVC-foam no matter whether it would be a one-off or a whole series. > > Balsa isn't used any more for years what is a relief, following the multitude of failures it is prone to, more stable or "better" wood would be to heavy as a core-material, waxed paper honeycombs actually are used as a core, but only in aviation and some very freaky regatta quarters, for honeycomb-sandwich is considered definitely unrepairable at all after any sort of water penetration, styrofoam isn't used any longer either for its being a turbo osmosis booster with 'economic' (aka dirt-cheap) polystyrene resins. > > So PVC foam, cheap and allocatable, and easy to extrude for any maker in addition, ductile and dense, is the material. > > Working well both with polystyrene snot and high grade West System or CTM epoxies, and any grade in between. > > Sandwich-hulls grow stronger in spherical build with increasing distance between the shells, given the core would not collapse under multidimensional alternating loads but stay dimensionally stable, keeping the shells exactly where they were meant, following the maths. > > This leads us to some centimeters of high-density but light core between some millimeters of "strong" aka "weighty" shells. > > The "sandwich" is already an insulated material so, with the core, usually not needing more of an insulation as a leisure vessel. > > Any other intended use, longterm all year round liveaboard, sailing high latitudes in terms of most of the time uninhabitable climates like found in British Columbia or Ontario for example (following what I heard lately ;-) does need more of arrangements I'd suppose, no matter which hull material You go for ... return to top line. > > Cheers and back to metal bending, origamiwise. > > (0,02 ct) > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29386|26895|2012-11-12 16:55:44|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|What works in the short term, and what still works after 25 years, are completely different animals. The best advice on this can only come from people who have dealt with a practise for over 25 years in the same boat. Plywood only works in the short term, but becomes a disaster over time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > bi-metal strips are available that are aluminum explosively joined to > steel and so can be welded to both materials. it has no electrolysis > and was developed to put aluminum cabins on steel hulls. > Also just use steel deck beams with plywood decks and it works fine. > I worked on many custom boats in the 70's that were built that way by Direcktor yachts. > mike > | 29387|29345|2012-11-12 16:55:56|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Yep, wooden boat, in a yard with tarps over the top. Like living in a sponge. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 12 November 2012, 21:51 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation A well insulated boat with no leaks and a good heat source can be extremely comfortable in the coldest conditions. If you are not comfortable aboard in any conditions,  you are definitely doing something wrong. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > ________________________________ >  From: Giuseppe Bergman > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2012, 19:25 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation >  > > Am 10.11.2012 um 18:43 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > > > > > Sorry to ask the same question twice, especially in a steel boat building forum, but is there some reason why spray PU foam can't be used in GRP boats? > > > > __,_.____ > > > > > I do not see any technical reason why it wouldn't work to bring sprayed PU ontop of a properly prepared GRP, no matter what sort of resin was originally used. > > The point is: why should You do this? > > Modern GRP-boats were usually built, at least above waterline, in a sandwich-way, that is an inner and an outer shell, cored with some sort of closed-cell ductile PVC-foam no matter whether it would be a one-off or a whole series. > > Balsa isn't used any more for years what is a relief, following the multitude of failures it is prone to, more stable or "better" wood would be to heavy as a core-material, waxed paper honeycombs actually are used as a core, but only in aviation and some very freaky regatta quarters, for honeycomb-sandwich is considered definitely unrepairable at all after any sort of water penetration, styrofoam isn't used any longer either for its being a turbo osmosis booster with 'economic' (aka dirt-cheap) polystyrene resins. > > So PVC foam, cheap and allocatable, and easy to extrude for any maker in addition, ductile and dense, is the material. > > Working well both with polystyrene snot and high grade West System or CTM epoxies, and any grade in between. > > Sandwich-hulls grow stronger in spherical build with increasing distance between the shells, given the core would not collapse under multidimensional alternating loads but stay dimensionally stable, keeping the shells exactly where they were meant, following the maths. > > This leads us to some centimeters of high-density but light core between some millimeters of "strong" aka "weighty" shells. > > The "sandwich" is already an insulated material so, with the core, usually not needing more of an insulation as a leisure vessel. > > Any other intended use, longterm all year round liveaboard, sailing high latitudes in terms of most of the time uninhabitable climates like found in British Columbia or Ontario for example (following what I heard lately ;-) does need more of arrangements I'd suppose, no matter which hull material You go for ... return to top line. > > Cheers and back to metal bending, origamiwise. > > (0,02 ct) > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29388|29345|2012-11-12 16:57:25|martin demers|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|where are you located? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:55:54 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation Yep, wooden boat, in a yard with tarps over the top. Like living in a sponge. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 12 November 2012, 21:51 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation A well insulated boat with no leaks and a good heat source can be extremely comfortable in the coldest conditions. If you are not comfortable aboard in any conditions, you are definitely doing something wrong. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Giuseppe Bergman > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2012, 19:25 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > > > Am 10.11.2012 um 18:43 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > > > > > Sorry to ask the same question twice, especially in a steel boat building forum, but is there some reason why spray PU foam can't be used in GRP boats? > > > > __,_.____ > > > > > I do not see any technical reason why it wouldn't work to bring sprayed PU ontop of a properly prepared GRP, no matter what sort of resin was originally used. > > The point is: why should You do this? > > Modern GRP-boats were usually built, at least above waterline, in a sandwich-way, that is an inner and an outer shell, cored with some sort of closed-cell ductile PVC-foam no matter whether it would be a one-off or a whole series. > > Balsa isn't used any more for years what is a relief, following the multitude of failures it is prone to, more stable or "better" wood would be to heavy as a core-material, waxed paper honeycombs actually are used as a core, but only in aviation and some very freaky regatta quarters, for honeycomb-sandwich is considered definitely unrepairable at all after any sort of water penetration, styrofoam isn't used any longer either for its being a turbo osmosis booster with 'economic' (aka dirt-cheap) polystyrene resins. > > So PVC foam, cheap and allocatable, and easy to extrude for any maker in addition, ductile and dense, is the material. > > Working well both with polystyrene snot and high grade West System or CTM epoxies, and any grade in between. > > Sandwich-hulls grow stronger in spherical build with increasing distance between the shells, given the core would not collapse under multidimensional alternating loads but stay dimensionally stable, keeping the shells exactly where they were meant, following the maths. > > This leads us to some centimeters of high-density but light core between some millimeters of "strong" aka "weighty" shells. > > The "sandwich" is already an insulated material so, with the core, usually not needing more of an insulation as a leisure vessel. > > Any other intended use, longterm all year round liveaboard, sailing high latitudes in terms of most of the time uninhabitable climates like found in British Columbia or Ontario for example (following what I heard lately ;-) does need more of arrangements I'd suppose, no matter which hull material You go for ... return to top line. > > Cheers and back to metal bending, origamiwise. > > (0,02 ct) > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29389|29345|2012-11-12 17:14:40|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Southern England. Damp rather than cold. ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 12 November 2012, 21:57 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation where are you located? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:55:54 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation                         Yep, wooden boat, in a yard with tarps over the top. Like living in a sponge. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 12 November 2012, 21:51 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation A well insulated boat with no leaks and a good heat source can be extremely comfortable in the coldest conditions. If you are not comfortable aboard in any conditions,  you are definitely doing something wrong. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > ________________________________ >  From: Giuseppe Bergman > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2012, 19:25 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation >  > > Am 10.11.2012 um 18:43 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > > > > > Sorry to ask the same question twice, especially in a steel boat building forum, but is there some reason why spray PU foam can't be used in GRP boats? > > > > __,_.____ > > > > > I do not see any technical reason why it wouldn't work to bring sprayed PU ontop of a properly prepared GRP, no matter what sort of resin was originally used. > > The point is: why should You do this? > > Modern GRP-boats were usually built, at least above waterline, in a sandwich-way, that is an inner and an outer shell, cored with some sort of closed-cell ductile PVC-foam no matter whether it would be a one-off or a whole series. > > Balsa isn't used any more for years what is a relief, following the multitude of failures it is prone to, more stable or "better" wood would be to heavy as a core-material, waxed paper honeycombs actually are used as a core, but only in aviation and some very freaky regatta quarters, for honeycomb-sandwich is considered definitely unrepairable at all after any sort of water penetration, styrofoam isn't used any longer either for its being a turbo osmosis booster with 'economic' (aka dirt-cheap) polystyrene resins. > > So PVC foam, cheap and allocatable, and easy to extrude for any maker in addition, ductile and dense, is the material. > > Working well both with polystyrene snot and high grade West System or CTM epoxies, and any grade in between. > > Sandwich-hulls grow stronger in spherical build with increasing distance between the shells, given the core would not collapse under multidimensional alternating loads but stay dimensionally stable, keeping the shells exactly where they were meant, following the maths. > > This leads us to some centimeters of high-density but light core between some millimeters of "strong" aka "weighty" shells. > > The "sandwich" is already an insulated material so, with the core, usually not needing more of an insulation as a leisure vessel. > > Any other intended use, longterm all year round liveaboard, sailing high latitudes in terms of most of the time uninhabitable climates like found in British Columbia or Ontario for example (following what I heard lately ;-) does need more of arrangements I'd suppose, no matter which hull material You go for ... return to top line. > > Cheers and back to metal bending, origamiwise. > > (0,02 ct) > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29390|29345|2012-11-12 19:36:34|David Jones|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|That depends upon if it's closed cell or open cell foam. Open cell foam soaks up water. Closed cell foam does not. You can get either in cans as spray foam. Read the label carefully. I don't feel open cell foam has any place on a boat... dj On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > Foam in can is far more absorbent than spray foam, and soaks up water like a sponge, > especially over aluminium. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > I have used foam in a can and it sticks like "shit to a blanket" > > I am sure the commercial stuff will too. > > mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I'm looking for something thats been torn down for an internal refit and > abandoned, so work will be needed. I have no experience to draw on, but I would expect that > foaming a hull with all bonded in bulkheads and vestigial cabin furniture still present > should be possible. I may have to talk to an experienced 'sprayer' for advice on wht does > and doesn't work. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Giuseppe Bergman > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sunday, 11 November 2012, 1:10 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > > > > > > > > > Am 10.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb richard.barwell@: > > > > > > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to > ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative > accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So it is possible to put in an insulation enhancement to a preloved boat, and I'd judge > it as highly recommended for an all year round liveaboard, but I see some reasonable > amounts of work slithering towards Your general direction, to say the least. > > > > > > Otherwise are most of the cheaper seasoned GRPs not usably furnished for liveaboard at > all anyway, so it might be of less importance that You will deinstall most of the furniture > before making inroads to the surfaces relevant to insulation ... don't miss any squareinch: > It will "rain" from any of Your not-so-well insulated spots permanently all winter. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29391|29345|2012-11-12 22:16:55|Matt Malone|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|"Closed Cell Foam" soaks up water more slowly, and lets go of the water far more slowly. I have a Boston Whaler with "Closed Cell Foam". It has about 95 pounds of water (+60% weight) in it. I have tried everything to get the water out. Long term, low humidity, drilled holes, even set up a high vacuum pump. The pump got about 3 ounces of water out. 5 months in low humidity got about 10 pounds out. I have another boat, it was about +30% on weight from water in foam. There were chunks of foam that felt like a chunk of ice they were so heavy. I spent most of the summer ripping out about 95% of the foam, about 12 green garbage bags full. Yes, both were old boats, but, I am not interested in starting down that road with anything I put in. I am not sure what I would do. Plastic vapour barrier is how it is done in a house. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: dljones@... Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:37:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation That depends upon if it's closed cell or open cell foam. Open cell foam soaks up water. Closed cell foam does not. You can get either in cans as spray foam. Read the label carefully. I don't feel open cell foam has any place on a boat... dj On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > Foam in can is far more absorbent than spray foam, and soaks up water like a sponge, > especially over aluminium. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > I have used foam in a can and it sticks like "shit to a blanket" > > I am sure the commercial stuff will too. > > mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I'm looking for something thats been torn down for an internal refit and > abandoned, so work will be needed. I have no experience to draw on, but I would expect that > foaming a hull with all bonded in bulkheads and vestigial cabin furniture still present > should be possible. I may have to talk to an experienced 'sprayer' for advice on wht does > and doesn't work. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Giuseppe Bergman > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sunday, 11 November 2012, 1:10 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > > > > > > > > > Am 10.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb richard.barwell@: > > > > > > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to > ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative > accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So it is possible to put in an insulation enhancement to a preloved boat, and I'd judge > it as highly recommended for an all year round liveaboard, but I see some reasonable > amounts of work slithering towards Your general direction, to say the least. > > > > > > Otherwise are most of the cheaper seasoned GRPs not usably furnished for liveaboard at > all anyway, so it might be of less importance that You will deinstall most of the furniture > before making inroads to the surfaces relevant to insulation ... don't miss any squareinch: > It will "rain" from any of Your not-so-well insulated spots permanently all winter. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29392|29345|2012-11-13 06:29:44|martin demers|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Maybe better then Quebec, here it is might be less damp but much colder to stay in your boat in winter. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:14:38 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation Southern England. Damp rather than cold. ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 12 November 2012, 21:57 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation where are you located? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:55:54 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation Yep, wooden boat, in a yard with tarps over the top. Like living in a sponge. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 12 November 2012, 21:51 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation A well insulated boat with no leaks and a good heat source can be extremely comfortable in the coldest conditions. If you are not comfortable aboard in any conditions, you are definitely doing something wrong. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Giuseppe Bergman > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2012, 19:25 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > > > Am 10.11.2012 um 18:43 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > > > > > Sorry to ask the same question twice, especially in a steel boat building forum, but is there some reason why spray PU foam can't be used in GRP boats? > > > > __,_.____ > > > > > I do not see any technical reason why it wouldn't work to bring sprayed PU ontop of a properly prepared GRP, no matter what sort of resin was originally used. > > The point is: why should You do this? > > Modern GRP-boats were usually built, at least above waterline, in a sandwich-way, that is an inner and an outer shell, cored with some sort of closed-cell ductile PVC-foam no matter whether it would be a one-off or a whole series. > > Balsa isn't used any more for years what is a relief, following the multitude of failures it is prone to, more stable or "better" wood would be to heavy as a core-material, waxed paper honeycombs actually are used as a core, but only in aviation and some very freaky regatta quarters, for honeycomb-sandwich is considered definitely unrepairable at all after any sort of water penetration, styrofoam isn't used any longer either for its being a turbo osmosis booster with 'economic' (aka dirt-cheap) polystyrene resins. > > So PVC foam, cheap and allocatable, and easy to extrude for any maker in addition, ductile and dense, is the material. > > Working well both with polystyrene snot and high grade West System or CTM epoxies, and any grade in between. > > Sandwich-hulls grow stronger in spherical build with increasing distance between the shells, given the core would not collapse under multidimensional alternating loads but stay dimensionally stable, keeping the shells exactly where they were meant, following the maths. > > This leads us to some centimeters of high-density but light core between some millimeters of "strong" aka "weighty" shells. > > The "sandwich" is already an insulated material so, with the core, usually not needing more of an insulation as a leisure vessel. > > Any other intended use, longterm all year round liveaboard, sailing high latitudes in terms of most of the time uninhabitable climates like found in British Columbia or Ontario for example (following what I heard lately ;-) does need more of arrangements I'd suppose, no matter which hull material You go for ... return to top line. > > Cheers and back to metal bending, origamiwise. > > (0,02 ct) > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29393|29345|2012-11-13 07:16:14|Robert Jones|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Most "foam in a can" is classified as OPEN CELL FOAM, which is has absorbent qualities. CLOSED CELL FOAM, on the other, is more expensive, but the bubbles are closed when dry and are  moisture proof or at worst resistant. There might be avenues to purchase closed cell foam by the can, but the best DYI method that i have found products like these. They are DYI, closed cell and can be effectively layered. I don't know if the link will go through, but if not private emai me at pha7env@... and i will forward it to you. There are a few companies that sell, what i believe to be the same kit labeled for them at the same price. If your thinking of using open cell, get a can, fill a container half way, and then fill with water and let sit for a day or so, then dump and see how much water is in the foam. Scary, like a big hard sponge!! --- On Mon, 11/12/12, mkriley48 wrote: From: mkriley48 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, November 12, 2012, 7:48 AM   I have used foam in a can and it sticks like "shit to a blanket" I am sure the commercial stuff will too. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > > > Yes, I'm looking for something thats been torn down for an internal refit and abandoned, so work will be needed. I have no experience to draw on, but I would expect that foaming a hull with all bonded in bulkheads and vestigial cabin furniture still present should be possible. I may have to talk to an experienced 'sprayer' for advice on wht does and doesn't work. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Giuseppe Bergman > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, 11 November 2012, 1:10 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > > > Am 10.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > > > > So it is possible to put in an insulation enhancement to a preloved boat, and I'd judge it as highly recommended for an all year round liveaboard, but I see some reasonable amounts of work slithering towards Your general direction, to say the least. > > Otherwise are most of the cheaper seasoned GRPs not usably furnished for liveaboard at all anyway, so it might be of less importance that You will deinstall most of the furniture before making inroads to the surfaces relevant to insulation ... don't miss any squareinch: It will "rain" from any of Your not-so-well insulated spots permanently all winter. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29394|29345|2012-11-13 07:17:53|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Was this sprayed in PU foam? I had thought of applying foam , to the back of the cabin lining, with vapour barrier sandwiched between, with an air gap between insulation and hull sealed off from the air in the hull's habitable parts. I'm sure the back side of the insulation would still find some way of getting damp, though (leaky deck fittings on non steel boats?), and how you'd stop the mould, etc I don't know, seeing as how any borax type substance would get washed away by the runs of condensation eventually. Some kind of easily removed cabin lining with (re)seal down edges (maybe silicone?) would be another idea, with pliable PU foam insulation glued to the back. That way, you get to take sections out and dry them on deck if it all goes wrong, and you can see the inside wall of the hull if you need to. Sounds a bit elaborate though. ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2012, 3:16 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation "Closed Cell Foam"  soaks up water more slowly, and lets go of the water far more slowly.  I have a Boston Whaler with "Closed Cell Foam".  It has about 95 pounds of water (+60% weight) in it.  I have tried everything to get the water out.  Long term, low humidity, drilled holes, even set up a high vacuum pump.  The pump got about 3 ounces of water out.  5 months in low humidity got about 10 pounds out.  I have another boat, it was about +30% on weight from water in foam.  There were chunks of foam that felt like a chunk of ice they were so heavy.  I spent most of the summer ripping out about 95% of the foam, about 12 green garbage bags full.  Yes, both were old boats, but, I am not interested in starting down that road with anything I put in.  I am not sure what I would do.  Plastic vapour barrier is how it is done in a house.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: dljones@... Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:37:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation                         That depends upon if it's closed cell or open cell foam. Open cell foam soaks up water. Closed cell foam does not. You can get either in cans as spray foam. Read the label carefully. I don't feel open cell foam has any place on a boat... dj On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > Foam in can is far more absorbent than spray foam, and soaks up water like a sponge, > especially over aluminium. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > I have used foam in a can and it sticks like "shit to a blanket" > > I am sure the commercial stuff will too. > > mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I'm looking for something thats been torn down for an internal refit and > abandoned, so work will be needed. I have no experience to draw on, but I would expect that > foaming a hull with all bonded in bulkheads and vestigial cabin furniture still present > should be possible. I may have to talk to an experienced 'sprayer' for advice on wht does > and doesn't work. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Giuseppe Bergman > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sunday, 11 November 2012, 1:10 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > > > > > > > > > Am 10.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb richard.barwell@: > > > > > > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to > ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative > accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So it is possible to put in an insulation enhancement to a preloved boat, and I'd judge > it as highly recommended for an all year round liveaboard, but I see some reasonable > amounts of work slithering towards Your general direction, to say the least. > > > > > > Otherwise are most of the cheaper seasoned GRPs not usably furnished for liveaboard at > all anyway, so it might be of less importance that You will deinstall most of the furniture > before making inroads to the surfaces relevant to insulation ... don't miss any squareinch: > It will "rain" from any of Your not-so-well insulated spots permanently all winter. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29395|26895|2012-11-13 09:41:23|Tom Mann|Re: ALU BS36|Agree Brent But I think it's not just plywood, anytime you have an over lapping joint that is not 100% sealed and it gets moisture between your going to have problems with corrosion eventually, encapsulating the wood-plywood with epoxy resin and a light cloth would keep the wood isolated at the seams and give it a longer life On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:55 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > What works in the short term, and what still works after 25 years, are > completely different animals. The best advice on this can only come from > people who have dealt with a practise for over 25 years in the same boat. > Plywood only works in the short term, but becomes a disaster over time. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > bi-metal strips are available that are aluminum explosively joined to > > steel and so can be welded to both materials. it has no electrolysis > > and was developed to put aluminum cabins on steel hulls. > > Also just use steel deck beams with plywood decks and it works fine. > > I worked on many custom boats in the 70's that were built that way by > Direcktor yachts. > > mike > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29396|26895|2012-11-13 10:31:17|Larry Dale|Re: ALU BS36|Correct me if I'm wrong but,different materials have different co-efficients of expansion. As the temps rise and fall these materials work against each other and will eventually separate. --- On Tue, 11/13/12, Tom Mann wrote: From: Tom Mann Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 9:41 AM Agree Brent But I think it's not just plywood, anytime you have an over lapping joint that is not 100% sealed and it gets moisture between your going to have problems with corrosion eventually, encapsulating  the wood-plywood with epoxy resin and a light cloth would keep the wood isolated at the seams and give it a longer life On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:55 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > What works in the short term, and what still works after 25 years, are > completely different animals. The best advice on this can only come from > people who have dealt with a practise for over 25 years in the same boat. > Plywood only works in the short term, but becomes a disaster over time. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > bi-metal strips are available  that are aluminum explosively joined to > > steel and so can be welded to both materials. it has no electrolysis > > and was developed to put aluminum cabins on steel hulls. > > Also just use steel deck beams with plywood decks and it works fine. > > I worked on many custom boats in the 70's that were built that way by > Direcktor yachts. > > mike > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29397|26895|2012-11-13 14:18:52|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: ALU BS36|Am 13.11.2012 um 16:31 schrieb Larry Dale: > Correct me if I'm wrong but,different materials have different co-efficients of expansion. As the temps rise and fall these materials work against each other and will eventually separate. > > > Yes, they do have differing coeff's of expansion, and -as far as it comes to separated layers - there's a differing behavior inside the same material between warm side and cold side, what makes the idea of "splitting" the foam with a foil prone to fail longterm. Leaving a gap between foam and hull might sound like a good idea, firsthand. The ventilation part of roofing and facades does only works by ventilating colder = dryer outside-air through the slightly warmer ventilating layer, though, driven by convectional effects. (warming air rising and evacuating the probable damp this way through the ridge, sucking cold = drying with warming air into the ventilating layer at the eaves) There's absolutely no way to get such a system working on a boat, I'm afraid. So "best" (by technical theory, while poorly maintenable) would be to put in an inert insulation, closed cell, "one piece" (or laminated properly, that is), no open gaps, no thermal bridges (that would be an insulation of stringers/frames/throughdecks/throughhulls as well), sticking throughout to any outside part of the living space, so this would be the hull, the deck, the main bulkhead towards cockpit, any lockerbulkheads under cockpitseating, engineroom bulkhead, and what sorts of contour You'll further find depending on Your boat /Your outfit. Sounds evil, and is exactly this. The thing in building physics is the gradients of temperature WITHIN the construction, and the temperatures ontop the (inner=damptight) surfaces, that's ANY surfaces damp air can get to. Any point of lower temperatures will be a point of permanent "rain" inside. Any gap in Your damp-tight lining will include vast parts outside of the insulation to Your "inside" surfaces in terms of damp, and there You'll have constant dripping all winter long. Think of a nicely cooled bottle of beer on a fair summerly day: the bottle will sweat, no matter how often You'll wipe it, until the beer will be warm enough to stop the condensing on it's surface. Inert foaming leads to a inner surface-temperature ABOVE the dew point at any surface of Your living space, at least it is supposed to in theory. There are a lot of weak points aboard a sailing boat, able to wreck Your attempts in no time, as there might be chain-plates on bulkheads, alloy skylights without thermal separation (the classical dripper to the saloon table), hinges, gas-tubes, a keel-stepped mast probably, with an open wedged partner, and so on. Even in the Med, where temperatures at night do really not very often fall below five degrees Celsius (+!), You do have a hard time in winter when it comes to mold in lockers already part-time-living only, not to mention liveaboard. This is why I wrote earlier about "less inhabitable climates". It's not easily = cheaply done in housing either, but I see a vast amount of real problems when temperatures drop to freezing or even particularly below for days, not to mention weeks, cause some of the colder points will produce not only dripping water but ice building up. You might go the other way, get a nice big waterheating Refleks oven and put in a huge amount of heating energy in a not-so-tightly-insulated yacht, distribute this energy with hoses and convectors, thus keeping Your lockers, bunks and restroom dry by a constant stream of extra warmth all winter long, but I suppose that all in all will cost more than move to landlocked existence for the hard months, depending where You are. There was a nice ad I saw last time taking a plane to London ... It read "It's better in the Bahamas!" written under two smiling Bikini-girls aboard a nicely photoshopped classic. And Your's is supposed to be a sailing boat anyway, isn't it? Cheers G_B [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29398|26895|2012-11-13 14:21:43|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: ALU BS36|Sorry, wrong thread I'm afraid. *ggg* Am 13.11.2012 um 20:18 schrieb Giuseppe Bergman: > > Am 13.11.2012 um 16:31 schrieb Larry Dale: > > > Correct me if I'm wrong but,different materials have different co-efficients of expansion. As the temps rise and fall these materials work against each other and will eventually separate. > > > > > > > > Yes, they do have differing coeff's of expansion, and -as far as it comes to separated layers - there's a differing behavior inside the same material between warm side and cold side, what makes the idea of "splitting" the foam with a foil prone to fail longterm. > > Leaving a gap between foam and hull might sound like a good idea, firsthand. > > The ventilation part of roofing and facades does only works by ventilating colder = dryer outside-air through the slightly warmer ventilating layer, though, driven by convectional effects. > (warming air rising and evacuating the probable damp this way through the ridge, sucking cold = drying with warming air into the ventilating layer at the eaves) > > There's absolutely no way to get such a system working on a boat, I'm afraid. > > So "best" (by technical theory, while poorly maintenable) would be to put in an inert insulation, closed cell, "one piece" (or laminated properly, that is), no open gaps, no thermal bridges (that would be an insulation of stringers/frames/throughdecks/throughhulls as well), sticking throughout to any outside part of the living space, so this would be the hull, the deck, the main bulkhead towards cockpit, any lockerbulkheads under cockpitseating, engineroom bulkhead, and what sorts of contour You'll further find depending on Your boat /Your outfit. > > Sounds evil, and is exactly this. > > The thing in building physics is the gradients of temperature WITHIN the construction, and the temperatures ontop the (inner=damptight) surfaces, that's ANY surfaces damp air can get to. > Any point of lower temperatures will be a point of permanent "rain" inside. > Any gap in Your damp-tight lining will include vast parts outside of the insulation to Your "inside" surfaces in terms of damp, and there You'll have constant dripping all winter long. > > Think of a nicely cooled bottle of beer on a fair summerly day: the bottle will sweat, no matter how often You'll wipe it, until the beer will be warm enough to stop the condensing on it's surface. > > Inert foaming leads to a inner surface-temperature ABOVE the dew point at any surface of Your living space, at least it is supposed to in theory. > > There are a lot of weak points aboard a sailing boat, able to wreck Your attempts in no time, as there might be chain-plates on bulkheads, alloy skylights without thermal separation (the classical dripper to the saloon table), hinges, gas-tubes, a keel-stepped mast probably, with an open wedged partner, and so on. > > Even in the Med, where temperatures at night do really not very often fall below five degrees Celsius (+!), You do have a hard time in winter when it comes to mold in lockers already part-time-living only, not to mention liveaboard. > > This is why I wrote earlier about "less inhabitable climates". > > It's not easily = cheaply done in housing either, but I see a vast amount of real problems when temperatures drop to freezing or even particularly below for days, not to mention weeks, cause some of the colder points will produce not only dripping water but ice building up. > > You might go the other way, get a nice big waterheating Refleks oven and put in a huge amount of heating energy in a not-so-tightly-insulated yacht, distribute this energy with hoses and convectors, thus keeping Your lockers, bunks and restroom dry by a constant stream of extra warmth all winter long, but I suppose that all in all will cost more than move to landlocked existence for the hard months, depending where You are. > > There was a nice ad I saw last time taking a plane to London ... It read "It's better in the Bahamas!" written under two smiling Bikini-girls aboard a nicely photoshopped classic. > > And Your's is supposed to be a sailing boat anyway, isn't it? > > Cheers G_B > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29399|29345|2012-11-13 18:47:37|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|I'm sure Quebec would be really cold in winter, although some people seem to be able to overwinter in Greenland in steel yachts, so anything's possible! http://anniehill.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Greenland. I'd personally love to cruise some really wild cold places, with the right boat. ________________________________ From: martin demers To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2012, 11:29 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation Maybe better then Quebec, here it is might be less damp but much colder to stay in your boat in winter. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:14:38 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation                         Southern England. Damp rather than cold. ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 12 November 2012, 21:57 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation where are you located? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:55:54 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation                         Yep, wooden boat, in a yard with tarps over the top. Like living in a sponge. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 12 November 2012, 21:51 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation A well insulated boat with no leaks and a good heat source can be extremely comfortable in the coldest conditions. If you are not comfortable aboard in any conditions,  you are definitely doing something wrong. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > ________________________________ >  From: Giuseppe Bergman > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2012, 19:25 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation >  > > Am 10.11.2012 um 18:43 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > > > > > Sorry to ask the same question twice, especially in a steel boat building forum, but is there some reason why spray PU foam can't be used in GRP boats? > > > > __,_.____ > > > > > I do not see any technical reason why it wouldn't work to bring sprayed PU ontop of a properly prepared GRP, no matter what sort of resin was originally used. > > The point is: why should You do this? > > Modern GRP-boats were usually built, at least above waterline, in a sandwich-way, that is an inner and an outer shell, cored with some sort of closed-cell ductile PVC-foam no matter whether it would be a one-off or a whole series. > > Balsa isn't used any more for years what is a relief, following the multitude of failures it is prone to, more stable or "better" wood would be to heavy as a core-material, waxed paper honeycombs actually are used as a core, but only in aviation and some very freaky regatta quarters, for honeycomb-sandwich is considered definitely unrepairable at all after any sort of water penetration, styrofoam isn't used any longer either for its being a turbo osmosis booster with 'economic' (aka dirt-cheap) polystyrene resins. > > So PVC foam, cheap and allocatable, and easy to extrude for any maker in addition, ductile and dense, is the material. > > Working well both with polystyrene snot and high grade West System or CTM epoxies, and any grade in between. > > Sandwich-hulls grow stronger in spherical build with increasing distance between the shells, given the core would not collapse under multidimensional alternating loads but stay dimensionally stable, keeping the shells exactly where they were meant, following the maths. > > This leads us to some centimeters of high-density but light core between some millimeters of "strong" aka "weighty" shells. > > The "sandwich" is already an insulated material so, with the core, usually not needing more of an insulation as a leisure vessel. > > Any other intended use, longterm all year round liveaboard, sailing high latitudes in terms of most of the time uninhabitable climates like found in British Columbia or Ontario for example (following what I heard lately ;-) does need more of arrangements I'd suppose, no matter which hull material You go for ... return to top line. > > Cheers and back to metal bending, origamiwise. > > (0,02 ct) > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                             [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29400|26895|2012-11-13 19:06:07|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|Yes ,epoxy would extend the life , but I met a couple on an epoxy saturated wooden boat in 88, beautifully built of Mt St Helen's douglas fir, which was experiencing dry rot already. I have met other wooden boats built by perfectionist epoxy fanatics, with dry rot problems early on. Epoxy's ability to absolutely seal wood is greatly exaggerated by it's proponents, some of whom have blind faith. I remember a debate about the heat resistance of epoxy vs formaldehyde glue. The epoxy fanatics claimed epoxy glue lines have far greater heat resistance. The consumer guides, after much testing, said the exact opposite. However that was like preaching athesism to religious fanatics. With absolutely nothing but religious like fanaticism to base their opinions on, I was attacked as a heretic for suggesting the gospel of epoxy could possibly be at fault. I have had epoxy joints give out in moderate heat, and have seen others have the same experience.. Plastics absorb water, wood expands and contracts and breaks the seal far more than materials which don't expand and contract with moisture. As for thermal expansion, I once asked my father, a steam engineer all his life , how much expansion would I get in a steel exhaust pipe at 1,000 degrees, if it were two feet long. He laughed, and said "A quarter inch in 15 feet."So the difference in expansion between aluminium and steel, in a slight temperature differences, would be microscopic , compared to the moisture expansion between metal and wood. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Agree Brent But I think it's not just plywood, anytime you have an over > lapping joint that is not 100% sealed and it gets moisture between your > going to have problems with corrosion eventually, encapsulating the > wood-plywood with epoxy resin and a light cloth would keep the wood > isolated at the seams and give it a longer life > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:55 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > What works in the short term, and what still works after 25 years, are > > completely different animals. The best advice on this can only come from > > people who have dealt with a practise for over 25 years in the same boat. > > Plywood only works in the short term, but becomes a disaster over time. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > bi-metal strips are available that are aluminum explosively joined to > > > steel and so can be welded to both materials. it has no electrolysis > > > and was developed to put aluminum cabins on steel hulls. > > > Also just use steel deck beams with plywood decks and it works fine. > > > I worked on many custom boats in the 70's that were built that way by > > Direcktor yachts. > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29401|29345|2012-11-13 19:13:30|brentswain38|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|I remember working on a fibreglass boat, which had hit the rocks, and had to be left a month to let the water drain out of what was labeled as closed cell foam. Fishboats here have closed cell foam sprayed into their holds, right down to the bilge, which makes it a wick, which wicks up the water til it rots the bottom out. The only way to let water out is to leave the lowest point foam free so it can drain. No foam can resist water indefinitely. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > "Closed Cell Foam" soaks up water more slowly, and lets go of the water far more slowly. I have a Boston Whaler with "Closed Cell Foam". It has about 95 pounds of water (+60% weight) in it. I have tried everything to get the water out. Long term, low humidity, drilled holes, even set up a high vacuum pump. The pump got about 3 ounces of water out. 5 months in low humidity got about 10 pounds out. I have another boat, it was about +30% on weight from water in foam. There were chunks of foam that felt like a chunk of ice they were so heavy. I spent most of the summer ripping out about 95% of the foam, about 12 green garbage bags full. Yes, both were old boats, but, I am not interested in starting down that road with anything I put in. > > I am not sure what I would do. Plastic vapour barrier is how it is done in a house. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: dljones@... > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:37:56 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That depends upon if it's closed cell or open cell foam. Open cell foam > > soaks up water. Closed cell foam does not. > > > > You can get either in cans as spray foam. Read the label carefully. > > > > I don't feel open cell foam has any place on a boat... > > > > dj > > > > On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Foam in can is far more absorbent than spray foam, and soaks up water like a sponge, > > > especially over aluminium. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > > > I have used foam in a can and it sticks like "shit to a blanket" > > > > I am sure the commercial stuff will too. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I'm looking for something thats been torn down for an internal refit and > > > abandoned, so work will be needed. I have no experience to draw on, but I would expect that > > > foaming a hull with all bonded in bulkheads and vestigial cabin furniture still present > > > should be possible. I may have to talk to an experienced 'sprayer' for advice on wht does > > > and doesn't work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Giuseppe Bergman > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 11 November 2012, 1:10 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 10.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb richard.barwell@: > > > > > > > > > > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to > > > ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative > > > accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So it is possible to put in an insulation enhancement to a preloved boat, and I'd judge > > > it as highly recommended for an all year round liveaboard, but I see some reasonable > > > amounts of work slithering towards Your general direction, to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise are most of the cheaper seasoned GRPs not usably furnished for liveaboard at > > > all anyway, so it might be of less importance that You will deinstall most of the furniture > > > before making inroads to the surfaces relevant to insulation ... don't miss any squareinch: > > > It will "rain" from any of Your not-so-well insulated spots permanently all winter. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29402|29345|2012-11-13 19:16:59|brentswain38|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|On a well insulated steel boa, with steel decks, and a good wood stove, you are warm and dry in any climate. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > I'm sure Quebec would be really cold in winter, although some people seem to be able to overwinter in Greenland in steel yachts, so anything's possible! > > http://anniehill.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Greenland. > I'd personally love to cruise some really wild cold places, with the right boat. > > > > ________________________________ > From: martin demers > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2012, 11:29 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation > > > Maybe better then Quebec, here it is might be less damp but much colder to stay in your boat in winter. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: richard.barwell@... > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:14:38 +0000 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > >     >       >       >       Southern England. Damp rather than cold. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: martin demers > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, 12 November 2012, 21:57 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation > > > > where are you located? > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: richard.barwell@... > > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:55:54 +0000 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation > > > >   > > > >     > >       > >       > >       Yep, wooden boat, in a yard with tarps over the top. Like living in a sponge. > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Monday, 12 November 2012, 21:51 > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation > > > > A well insulated boat with no leaks and a good heat source can be extremely comfortable in the coldest conditions. If you are not comfortable aboard in any conditions,  you are definitely doing something wrong. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > >  From: Giuseppe Bergman > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2012, 19:25 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Am 10.11.2012 um 18:43 schrieb richard.barwell@: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry to ask the same question twice, especially in a steel boat building forum, but is there some reason why spray PU foam can't be used in GRP boats? > > > > > > > > > > > > __,_.____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not see any technical reason why it wouldn't work to bring sprayed PU ontop of a properly prepared GRP, no matter what sort of resin was originally used. > > > > > > > > > > The point is: why should You do this? > > > > > > > > > > Modern GRP-boats were usually built, at least above waterline, in a sandwich-way, that is an inner and an outer shell, cored with some sort of closed-cell ductile PVC-foam no matter whether it would be a one-off or a whole series. > > > > > > > > > > Balsa isn't used any more for years what is a relief, following the multitude of failures it is prone to, more stable or "better" wood would be to heavy as a core-material, waxed paper honeycombs actually are used as a core, but only in aviation and some very freaky regatta quarters, for honeycomb-sandwich is considered definitely unrepairable at all after any sort of water penetration, styrofoam isn't used any longer either for its being a turbo osmosis booster with 'economic' (aka dirt-cheap) polystyrene resins. > > > > > > > > > > So PVC foam, cheap and allocatable, and easy to extrude for any maker in addition, ductile and dense, is the material. > > > > > > > > > > Working well both with polystyrene snot and high grade West System or CTM epoxies, and any grade in between. > > > > > > > > > > Sandwich-hulls grow stronger in spherical build with increasing distance between the shells, given the core would not collapse under multidimensional alternating loads but stay dimensionally stable, keeping the shells exactly where they were meant, following the maths. > > > > > > > > > > This leads us to some centimeters of high-density but light core between some millimeters of "strong" aka "weighty" shells. > > > > > > > > > > The "sandwich" is already an insulated material so, with the core, usually not needing more of an insulation as a leisure vessel. > > > > > > > > > > Any other intended use, longterm all year round liveaboard, sailing high latitudes in terms of most of the time uninhabitable climates like found in British Columbia or Ontario for example (following what I heard lately ;-) does need more of arrangements I'd suppose, no matter which hull material You go for ... return to top line. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers and back to metal bending, origamiwise. > > > > > > > > > > (0,02 ct) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >     > >     > > > >     > >     > > > >   > > > >                           > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >     >     > >     >     > > > > > > >                           > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29403|29345|2012-11-13 19:18:26|Carl Volkwein|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|How about useing that foam board and some good culk? ________________________________ From: "richard.barwell@..." To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 7:32 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation   Yes, I'm looking for something thats been torn down for an internal refit and abandoned, so work will be needed. I have no experience to draw on, but I would expect that foaming a hull with all bonded in bulkheads and vestigial cabin furniture still present should be possible. I may have to talk to an experienced 'sprayer' for advice on wht does and doesn't work. ________________________________ From: Giuseppe Bergman To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 11 November 2012, 1:10 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation Am 10.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > So it is possible to put in an insulation enhancement to a preloved boat, and I'd judge it as highly recommended for an all year round liveaboard, but I see some reasonable amounts of work slithering towards Your general direction, to say the least. Otherwise are most of the cheaper seasoned GRPs not usably furnished for liveaboard at all anyway, so it might be of less importance that You will deinstall most of the furniture before making inroads to the surfaces relevant to insulation ... don't miss any squareinch: It will "rain" from any of Your not-so-well insulated spots permanently all winter. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29404|29404|2012-11-13 19:43:11|brentswain38|Neanderthals VS Cro Magnons|Anthropologists have discovered that tools made by Neanderthals are made to a very high degree of precision and perfectionism, with an extremely high degree of craftsmanship. Unfortunately, what goes along with that kind of thinking, is their tools and ways were unchanged for over 200,000 years. Going against, or questioning the "Way it has always been done" was obviously a taboo in their culture, as it remains in some segments of our culture.. Cro Magnons had a far lower degree of perfectionism and craftsmanship, but the evolution, and innovation of their tools was rapid. Innovation and questioning tradition, was obviously encouraged in their culture. So which of the two became extinct, and which thrived? Which offered the most obvious benefits? I see parallels in any field of technical development. While the obsessive precision of the work of modern day Neanderthals is impressive, by clinging so dogmatically to tradition, and not having the balls to try anything different, they try to hold back new developments in any field, possibly, in part, to maintain their relevance. As any new idea couldn't possibly have been developed, without breaking the rules and going against tradition , modern day perfectionist Neanderthals have not come up with a single new innovation, but have enviously attacked those who have proven capable of what they could never hope to accomplish. Steel boat building has, for all too long been left in the hands of Neanderthals, holding it's development in the 50's or earlier, resulting in boats which are far too time consuming, and labour and money intensive for many to be able to afford, without wasting years of cruising time , and irreplaceable life time. While I would hire a neanderthal to line my engine up, I wouldn't want to pay him for the length of time it takes him to build my boat, nor trust him to design it, using outdated ideas cast in the past. I prefer the Cro Magnon approach. It has worked far better than our neanderthal genes.| 29405|29345|2012-11-13 21:14:56|scott|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Yes but in a house the siding on the house probably isn't vapor proof the way a steel or fiberglass hull is. Any moisture that gets on the hull side of the vapor barrier will be staying their and causing mold, rust etcc... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > I am not sure what I would do. Plastic vapour barrier is how it is done in a h | 29406|29345|2012-11-13 21:16:06|David Jones|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Yes, I bought a small sail boat once that was made mostly from foam. supposed to be a close cell foam, and it was water logged. Left it in New Mexician semi-arid weather for about a year and it still didn't dry out... But I would really hate to have open cell foam around, that is a real sponge. It also is not as good an insulator as closed cell foam. I'm not trying to say that closed cell foam isn't without problems. There is no majic bullet. I've seen it used inside steel hull sail boats and work quite well for many years. They have pretty well determined that the plastic vapour barrier in houses does not seal moisture out particularly well either. I believe that closed cell foam is considered better. I think the main trick is to keep as much water away from insulation as possible. Sealing it amy be another option but I don't know what you'd use, maybe a compatible paint... dj On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, Matt Malone wrote: > > > "Closed Cell Foam" soaks up water more slowly, and lets go of the water > far more slowly. I have a Boston Whaler with "Closed Cell Foam". It > has about 95 pounds of water (+60% weight) in it. I have tried > everything to get the water out. Long term, low humidity, drilled > holes, even set up a high vacuum pump. The pump got about 3 ounces of > water out. 5 months in low humidity got about 10 pounds out. I have > another boat, it was about +30% on weight from water in foam. There > were chunks of foam that felt like a chunk of ice they were so heavy. > I spent most of the summer ripping out about 95% of the foam, about 12 > green garbage bags full. Yes, both were old boats, but, I am not > interested in starting down that road with anything I put in. > > I am not sure what I would do. Plastic vapour barrier is how it is done in a house. > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: dljones@... > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:37:56 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That depends upon if it's closed cell or open cell foam. Open cell foam > > soaks up water. Closed cell foam does not. > > > > You can get either in cans as spray foam. Read the label carefully. > > > > I don't feel open cell foam has any place on a boat... > > > > dj > > > > On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Foam in can is far more absorbent than spray foam, and soaks up water like a sponge, > >> especially over aluminium. > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > >>> > >>> I have used foam in a can and it sticks like "shit to a blanket" > >>> I am sure the commercial stuff will too. > >>> mike > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@ wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Yes, I'm looking for something thats been torn down for an internal refit and > >> abandoned, so work will be needed. I have no experience to draw on, but I would expect that > >> foaming a hull with all bonded in bulkheads and vestigial cabin furniture still present > >> should be possible. I may have to talk to an experienced 'sprayer' for advice on wht does > >> and doesn't work. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> From: Giuseppe Bergman > >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>> Sent: Sunday, 11 November 2012, 1:10 > >>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Am 10.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb richard.barwell@: > >>>> > >>>>> The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to > >> ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative > >> accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> So it is possible to put in an insulation enhancement to a preloved boat, and I'd judge > >> it as highly recommended for an all year round liveaboard, but I see some reasonable > >> amounts of work slithering towards Your general direction, to say the least. > >>>> > >>>> Otherwise are most of the cheaper seasoned GRPs not usably furnished for liveaboard at > >> all anyway, so it might be of less importance that You will deinstall most of the furniture > >> before making inroads to the surfaces relevant to insulation ... don't miss any squareinch: > >> It will "rain" from any of Your not-so-well insulated spots permanently all winter. > >>>> > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 29407|29345|2012-11-13 21:21:21|wild_explorer|Thermal insulation industrial epoxy|That what puzzles me... Metal hull should be insulated by foam, but it is need to leave bilge area, tanks' tops free from foam insulation. I suspect engine mounts, etc as well. And that where water condensate will be... It should be some way to do thermal insulation in these areas... I tried to find Thermal Insulation Epoxy, but did not get much. I only found one product so far on Internet for industrial use - "Nansulate" http://www.nansulate.com/nansulate_industrial_casestudies.htm# Is there any others? P.S. Hopefully floor will give some thermal insulation as well (plywood, wood, SS or steel on thermal insulators). Brent recommends to trim the foam and saturate trimmed foam with paint. It should prevent the foam from absorbing water through the paint. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I remember working on a fibreglass boat, which had hit the rocks, and had to be left a month to let the water drain out of what was labeled as closed cell foam. > Fishboats here have closed cell foam sprayed into their holds, right down to the bilge, which makes it a wick, which wicks up the water til it rots the bottom out. The only way to let water out is to leave the lowest point foam free so it can drain. No foam can resist water indefinitely. > | 29408|29345|2012-11-13 21:32:10|M.J. Malone|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Yes, persistent moisture would be a problem. I was thinking porch paint on the inside of the hull - inexpensive polyester I think. And leave the vapour barrier open in the bilge so that water can drip out, collect and be pumped away. An ordinary cover over the bilge would maintain the temperature difference allowing the hull to be a natural dehumidifier for the interior of the cabin. Is it better that foam slowly absorbs moisture and moulds? I would sooner remove the interior in segments and scrub and apply an anti-mould solution. I am not sure I have seen mould grow on steel, let alone well. Matt Zingzer (sp?) Apparently sells anti-mould paint. scott wrote: Yes but in a house the siding on the house probably isn't vapor proof the way a steel or fiberglass hull is. Any moisture that gets on the hull side of the vapor barrier will be staying their and causing mold, rust etcc... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > I am not sure what I would do. Plastic vapour barrier is how it is done in a h [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29409|29345|2012-11-13 22:39:24|Paul Wilson|Re: Thermal insulation industrial epoxy|I lived a few years on my boat in wintertime in Vancouver. One winter is was record cold temperatures and stayed below -10 C for several weeks...... I have 1 1/2 inch spray foam on hull and 1 inch on deck with the bilge having no foam. The portholes would sweat in winter time but there was no sweating anywhere else. The bilge or floors had no condensation. I believe this might be because under the waterline it would never get as cold as on deck because under the waterline it stays above freezing temperature. I have no idea if it is closed cell but it is the standard commercially applied spray foam. If immersed, it will eventually absorb water but on the hull and deck it stays dry and is great insulation. After more than 20 years, the foam has stayed attached to the epoxy painted hull with absolutely no problems. I would definitely go again with spray foam on a metal hull. Cheers, Paul On 14/11/2012 3:21 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > That what puzzles me... Metal hull should be insulated by foam, but it > is need to leave bilge area, tanks' tops free from foam insulation. I > suspect engine mounts, etc as well. And that where water condensate > will be... > > It should be some way to do thermal insulation in these areas... I > tried to find Thermal Insulation Epoxy, but did not get much. I only > found one product so far on Internet for industrial use - "Nansulate" > > http://www.nansulate.com/nansulate_industrial_casestudies.htm# > > Is there any others? > > P.S. Hopefully floor will give some thermal insulation as well > (plywood, wood, SS or steel on thermal insulators). > > Brent recommends to trim the foam and saturate trimmed foam with > paint. It should prevent the foam from absorbing water through the paint. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I remember working on a fibreglass boat, which had hit the rocks, > and had to be left a month to let the water drain out of what was > labeled as closed cell foam. > > Fishboats here have closed cell foam sprayed into their holds, right > down to the bilge, which makes it a wick, which wicks up the water til > it rots the bottom out. The only way to let water out is to leave the > lowest point foam free so it can drain. No foam can resist water > indefinitely. > > > > | 29410|29345|2012-11-13 23:41:06|wild_explorer|Re: Thermal insulation industrial epoxy|As I understand, "sweating/dripping" takes a place when warmer humid air makes contact with colder surface. This explains sweating from portholes (if it is not double glass insulated) at winter time. Worm air from inside touches cold glass... Do we, basically, worry only "above waterline" hull's surface? Even at winter time, below waterline hull's temperature more likely will be above 32F (0C). In tropics, hot air will be at the top, and should slowly change/equalize the temperature to go down (floor and bilge)? So, again, we worry about surface "above waterline". Does It means that only area from below waterline, which can be exposed above water (when boat is heeled) and up, need to be covered with foam (or other type of) insulation? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I lived a few years on my boat in wintertime in Vancouver. One winter is > was record cold temperatures and stayed below -10 C for several > weeks...... I have 1 1/2 inch spray foam on hull and 1 inch on deck with > the bilge having no foam. The portholes would sweat in winter time but > there was no sweating anywhere else. The bilge or floors had no > condensation. I believe this might be because under the waterline it > would never get as cold as on deck because under the waterline it stays > above freezing temperature. > > I have no idea if it is closed cell but it is the standard commercially > applied spray foam. If immersed, it will eventually absorb water but on > the hull and deck it stays dry and is great insulation. After more than > 20 years, the foam has stayed attached to the epoxy painted hull with > absolutely no problems. I would definitely go again with spray foam on a > metal hull. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 14/11/2012 3:21 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > That what puzzles me... Metal hull should be insulated by foam, but it > > is need to leave bilge area, tanks' tops free from foam insulation. I > > suspect engine mounts, etc as well. And that where water condensate > > will be... > > > > It should be some way to do thermal insulation in these areas... I > > tried to find Thermal Insulation Epoxy, but did not get much. I only > > found one product so far on Internet for industrial use - "Nansulate" > > > > http://www.nansulate.com/nansulate_industrial_casestudies.htm# > > > > Is there any others? > > > > P.S. Hopefully floor will give some thermal insulation as well > > (plywood, wood, SS or steel on thermal insulators). > > > > Brent recommends to trim the foam and saturate trimmed foam with > > paint. It should prevent the foam from absorbing water through the paint. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I remember working on a fibreglass boat, which had hit the rocks, > > and had to be left a month to let the water drain out of what was > > labeled as closed cell foam. > > > Fishboats here have closed cell foam sprayed into their holds, right > > down to the bilge, which makes it a wick, which wicks up the water til > > it rots the bottom out. The only way to let water out is to leave the > > lowest point foam free so it can drain. No foam can resist water > > indefinitely. > > > > > > > > | 29411|26895|2012-11-14 05:01:48|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: ALU BS36|The problem with opening/failing epoxy joints under changing (aka rising) temperatures comes mostly from lacking temperature/uncontrolled climates when curing first time. I was working with a couple different boatyards and wainwrights and two university research labs, with epoxy from dirt-cheap noname to pricy west system, glueing merely everthing from salvaged white wood to any sorts of ply to real Kalimantan teak: Mainly the found probs were the same: You do have to cure epoxy under securely controlled climate and temperatures of roundabout more than 20 degrees Celsius ABOVE the temperature it is meant for in all-day-use later on. And You do have to adjust all parts You want to joint to the controlled dry warm environment well before glueing mandatory, otherwise there might arise probs with condensing damp You would see on a tin, but You won't see on wood (while it would still be there in reasonable amounts.) Curing an important joint on a mild winterdays morning in a shady barn open to a nice sea-breeze, merely just waiting to stop the goo feeling all that sticky instead of "curing" isn't the way to go with epoxy. We glued some four meters high and 30 meters long nicely rounded gluelam trusses for use as roofing of a thermal spa (lots of damp in normal use conditions, what brought us from "proven" Kaurit to West System epoxy...) in snowloaden Tirol/Austria with epoxy, under controlled climates, kept in place with vacuum mostly, and tempering each whole thingy with 110 degrees Celsius for the roundabout 15 hours of curing with excellent results some 18 years ago (my biggest/most advanced project so far). Cutting/bending/welding mild steel or aluminimum does need a whole lot less technological effort than lamellating a proper epoxy-veneer hull or even a wellstrained deckbeam for sure, though. This is what brings woodheaded Neandertalers into contact with Cro-Magnon-origami. two cents to the dryrot: wood is prone to fungus, no matter what sort of "encapsulating" You try, that's simply nature like gravity, even teak will go this natural way once the wax inside is washed out.. Keeping an eye upon an easily and well repairable construction will help more than "encpsulate" a monolithe of high complexity, as long as You want to have a lot of fun with Your wooden boat for years. The all-laminated extremely complex lightweight veneer-racers are meant as nice one-way-solutions to enable keen owners getting rid of heaps of money in no time while trying to gain an oddly shaped saucer with their name engraved ... nothing to be taken serious in terms of cruize-boating or liveaboard, unless You are boatbuilder and make a living of those heaps of money. A wooden boat will rot. The wooden boater will know, keep an eye, and be prepared to change some rotting parts in time. A steel boat will rust. The steel boater will know and keep an eye on her difficult points and caress her in time. Am 14.11.2012 um 01:06 schrieb brentswain38: > Yes ,epoxy would extend the life , but I met a couple on an epoxy saturated wooden boat in 88, beautifully built of Mt St Helen's douglas fir, which was experiencing dry rot already. I have met other wooden boats built by perfectionist epoxy fanatics, with dry rot problems early on. > Epoxy's ability to absolutely seal wood is greatly exaggerated by it's proponents, some of whom have blind faith. > I remember a debate about the heat resistance of epoxy vs formaldehyde glue. The epoxy fanatics claimed epoxy glue lines have far greater heat resistance. The consumer guides, after much testing, said the exact opposite. However that was like preaching athesism to religious fanatics. With absolutely nothing but religious like fanaticism to base their opinions on, I was attacked as a heretic for suggesting the gospel of epoxy could possibly be at fault. > I have had epoxy joints give out in moderate heat, and have seen others have the same experience.. > Plastics absorb water, wood expands and contracts and breaks the seal far more than materials which don't expand and contract with moisture. > As for thermal expansion, I once asked my father, a steam engineer all his life , how much expansion would I get in a steel exhaust pipe at 1,000 degrees, if it were two feet long. He laughed, and said "A quarter inch in 15 feet."So the difference in expansion between aluminium and steel, in a slight temperature differences, would be microscopic , compared to the moisture expansion between metal and wood. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > Agree Brent But I think it's not just plywood, anytime you have an over > > lapping joint that is not 100% sealed and it gets moisture between your > > going to have problems with corrosion eventually, encapsulating the > > wood-plywood with epoxy resin and a light cloth would keep the wood > > isolated at the seams and give it a longer life > > > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:55 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > What works in the short term, and what still works after 25 years, are > > > completely different animals. The best advice on this can only come from > > > people who have dealt with a practise for over 25 years in the same boat. > > > Plywood only works in the short term, but becomes a disaster over time. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > > > bi-metal strips are available that are aluminum explosively joined to > > > > steel and so can be welded to both materials. it has no electrolysis > > > > and was developed to put aluminum cabins on steel hulls. > > > > Also just use steel deck beams with plywood decks and it works fine. > > > > I worked on many custom boats in the 70's that were built that way by > > > Direcktor yachts. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29412|29345|2012-11-14 08:12:37|Robert Jones|Re: Thermal insulation industrial epoxy|Paul, i think you hit the nail on the head when you said "epoxy painted hull". It seems to me that everyone's suggestions add up to CLOSED CELL FOAM, in OPEN BILGES, applied on properly prepared and EPOXY COATED HULL. Also, if i were able, i might add one of the insulating paints such as Nansulate over the epoxy prior to spraying foam. Expensive, yes, but the three main things you said that matter to me were  "absolutely no problems" , "20 years later" and "I would definitely go again with spray foam on a metal hull." Pretty strong testament. Thanks for the input!   robert --- On Tue, 11/13/12, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Thermal insulation industrial epoxy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 8:36 PM I lived a few years on my boat in wintertime in Vancouver. One winter is was record cold temperatures and stayed below -10 C for several weeks...... I have 1 1/2 inch spray foam on hull and 1 inch on deck with the bilge having no foam. The portholes would sweat in winter time but there was no sweating anywhere else. The bilge or floors had no condensation. I believe this might be because under the waterline it would never get as cold as on deck because under the waterline it stays above freezing temperature. I have no idea if it is closed cell but it is the standard commercially applied spray foam. If immersed, it will eventually absorb water but on the hull and deck it stays dry and is great insulation. After more than 20 years, the foam has stayed attached to the epoxy painted hull with absolutely no problems. I would definitely go again with spray foam on a metal hull. Cheers, Paul On 14/11/2012 3:21 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > That what puzzles me... Metal hull should be insulated by foam, but it > is need to leave bilge area, tanks' tops free from foam insulation. I > suspect engine mounts, etc as well. And that where water condensate > will be... > > It should be some way to do thermal insulation in these areas... I > tried to find Thermal Insulation Epoxy, but did not get much. I only > found one product so far on Internet for industrial use - "Nansulate" > > http://www.nansulate.com/nansulate_industrial_casestudies.htm# > > Is there any others? > > P.S. Hopefully floor will give some thermal insulation as well > (plywood, wood, SS or steel on thermal insulators). > > Brent recommends to trim the foam and saturate trimmed foam with > paint. It should prevent the foam from absorbing water through the paint. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I remember working on a fibreglass boat, which had hit the rocks, > and had to be left a month to let the water drain out of what was > labeled as closed cell foam. > > Fishboats here have closed cell foam sprayed into their holds, right > down to the bilge, which makes it a wick, which wicks up the water til > it rots the bottom out. The only way to let water out is to leave the > lowest point foam free so it can drain. No foam can resist water > indefinitely. > > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29413|29345|2012-11-14 08:19:11|Robert Jones|Re: Thermal insulation industrial epoxy|The lower the humidity inside, the less condensate can be made. Although power hogs, i love dehumidifiers for areas below ground and water. Heaters that use indoor air for combustion and vent spent gases outside also reduce humidity. The closer each area (in and out)is to the same temp, the less condensate formation,so lowering the temp helps some also. --- On Tue, 11/13/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Thermal insulation industrial epoxy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 9:41 PM   As I understand, "sweating/dripping" takes a place when warmer humid air makes contact with colder surface. This explains sweating from portholes (if it is not double glass insulated) at winter time. Worm air from inside touches cold glass... Do we, basically, worry only "above waterline" hull's surface? Even at winter time, below waterline hull's temperature more likely will be above 32F (0C). In tropics, hot air will be at the top, and should slowly change/equalize the temperature to go down (floor and bilge)? So, again, we worry about surface "above waterline". Does It means that only area from below waterline, which can be exposed above water (when boat is heeled) and up, need to be covered with foam (or other type of) insulation? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I lived a few years on my boat in wintertime in Vancouver. One winter is > was record cold temperatures and stayed below -10 C for several > weeks...... I have 1 1/2 inch spray foam on hull and 1 inch on deck with > the bilge having no foam. The portholes would sweat in winter time but > there was no sweating anywhere else. The bilge or floors had no > condensation. I believe this might be because under the waterline it > would never get as cold as on deck because under the waterline it stays > above freezing temperature. > > I have no idea if it is closed cell but it is the standard commercially > applied spray foam. If immersed, it will eventually absorb water but on > the hull and deck it stays dry and is great insulation. After more than > 20 years, the foam has stayed attached to the epoxy painted hull with > absolutely no problems. I would definitely go again with spray foam on a > metal hull. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 14/11/2012 3:21 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > That what puzzles me... Metal hull should be insulated by foam, but it > > is need to leave bilge area, tanks' tops free from foam insulation. I > > suspect engine mounts, etc as well. And that where water condensate > > will be... > > > > It should be some way to do thermal insulation in these areas... I > > tried to find Thermal Insulation Epoxy, but did not get much. I only > > found one product so far on Internet for industrial use - "Nansulate" > > > > http://www.nansulate.com/nansulate_industrial_casestudies.htm# > > > > Is there any others? > > > > P.S. Hopefully floor will give some thermal insulation as well > > (plywood, wood, SS or steel on thermal insulators). > > > > Brent recommends to trim the foam and saturate trimmed foam with > > paint. It should prevent the foam from absorbing water through the paint. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I remember working on a fibreglass boat, which had hit the rocks, > > and had to be left a month to let the water drain out of what was > > labeled as closed cell foam. > > > Fishboats here have closed cell foam sprayed into their holds, right > > down to the bilge, which makes it a wick, which wicks up the water til > > it rots the bottom out. The only way to let water out is to leave the > > lowest point foam free so it can drain. No foam can resist water > > indefinitely. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29414|29345|2012-11-14 08:30:46|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Plenty of questions... So this particular boat was wet due to being sunk, rather than from absorbing water vapour? Is the idea of covering the foam's surface with plenty of latex paint partly to slow down absorption of water? I get the idea of the flame retardant coating. Would latex paint still cure okay if you mixed borax into the last coat or 2? Like interior antifouling. What do you think about foaming below to waterline, stopping at the cabin sole height? And maybe blowing some foam on the undersides of the floorboards themselves, to insulate the cabin sole? Lastly, does closed cell foam draw water in for the full width of itself? (ie will you always end up with damp next to the epoxied inner hull, or will the water not penetrate that far?) I had no idea that closed cell foam could be prone to this. There probably isn't an everlasting, totally waterproof insulation after all! Just one that lasts as long as I do would be okay... ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 0:13 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation I remember working on a fibreglass boat, which had hit the rocks, and had to be left a month to let the water drain out of what was labeled as closed cell  foam. Fishboats here have closed cell foam sprayed into their holds, right down to the bilge, which makes it a wick, which wicks up the water til it rots the bottom out. The only way to let water out is to leave the lowest point foam free so it can drain. No foam can resist water indefinitely. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > "Closed Cell Foam"  soaks up water more slowly, and lets go of the water far more slowly.  I have a Boston Whaler with "Closed Cell Foam".  It has about 95 pounds of water (+60% weight) in it.  I have tried everything to get the water out.  Long term, low humidity, drilled holes, even set up a high vacuum pump.  The pump got about 3 ounces of water out.  5 months in low humidity got about 10 pounds out.  I have another boat, it was about +30% on weight from water in foam.  There were chunks of foam that felt like a chunk of ice they were so heavy.  I spent most of the summer ripping out about 95% of the foam, about 12 green garbage bags full.  Yes, both were old boats, but, I am not interested in starting down that road with anything I put in.  > > I am not sure what I would do.  Plastic vapour barrier is how it is done in a house.  > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: dljones@... > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:37:56 -0500 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > >  > > >    >      >      >      That depends upon if it's closed cell or open cell foam. Open cell foam > > soaks up water. Closed cell foam does not. > > > > You can get either in cans as spray foam. Read the label carefully. > > > > I don't feel open cell foam has any place on a boat... > > > > dj > > > > On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Foam in can is far more absorbent than spray foam, and soaks up water like a sponge, > > > especially over aluminium. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > > > I have used foam in a can and it sticks like "shit to a blanket" > > > > I am sure the commercial stuff will too. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I'm looking for something thats been torn down for an internal refit and > > > abandoned, so work will be needed. I have no experience to draw on, but I would expect that > > > foaming a hull with all bonded in bulkheads and vestigial cabin furniture still present > > > should be possible. I may have to talk to an experienced 'sprayer' for advice on wht does > > > and doesn't work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Giuseppe Bergman > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 11 November 2012, 1:10 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] polyethylene foam insulation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 10.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb richard.barwell@: > > > > > > > > > > > The boats I can afford are all solid grp or steel. The reason for insulating is to > > > ensure that the boat is habitable year round, with no emergency searches for alternative > > > accommodation in the depths of winter, like I had last time I lived on a boat... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So it is possible to put in an insulation enhancement to a preloved boat, and I'd judge > > > it as highly recommended for an all year round liveaboard, but I see some reasonable > > > amounts of work slithering towards Your general direction, to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise are most of the cheaper seasoned GRPs not usably furnished for liveaboard at > > > all anyway, so it might be of less importance that You will deinstall most of the furniture > > > before making inroads to the surfaces relevant to insulation ... don't miss any squareinch: > > > It will "rain" from any of Your not-so-well insulated spots permanently all winter. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >    >      > >    >    > > > > > > >                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29415|26895|2012-11-14 11:03:51|Tom Mann|Re: ALU BS36|Yes very true From what I have been reading but can't confirm is aluminum expands and contracts 50% more than steel . I don't think a permanent bonding goop would be to good to use in the joint. What I am thinking of using is 1/8" thick rubber gasket and use the black goop that is used on windows, stays flexible. wont last forever but at least I can take it apart and replace when needed. On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Larry Dale wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong but,different materials have different > co-efficients of expansion. As the temps rise and fall these materials work > against each other and will eventually separate. > > --- On Tue, 11/13/12, Tom Mann wrote: > > > From: Tom Mann > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 9:41 AM > > > Agree Brent But I think it's not just plywood, anytime you have an over > lapping joint that is not 100% sealed and it gets moisture between your > going to have problems with corrosion eventually, encapsulating the > wood-plywood with epoxy resin and a light cloth would keep the wood > isolated at the seams and give it a longer life > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:55 PM, brentswain38 >wrote: > > > What works in the short term, and what still works after 25 years, are > > completely different animals. The best advice on this can only come from > > people who have dealt with a practise for over 25 years in the same boat. > > Plywood only works in the short term, but becomes a disaster over time. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > bi-metal strips are available that are aluminum explosively joined to > > > steel and so can be welded to both materials. it has no electrolysis > > > and was developed to put aluminum cabins on steel hulls. > > > Also just use steel deck beams with plywood decks and it works fine. > > > I worked on many custom boats in the 70's that were built that way by > > Direcktor yachts. > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29416|26895|2012-11-14 12:11:55|jhess314|Re: ALU BS36|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > As for thermal expansion, I once asked my father, a steam engineer all his life , how much expansion would I get in a steel exhaust pipe at 1,000 degrees, if it were two feet long. He laughed, and said "A quarter inch in 15 feet."So the difference in expansion between aluminium and steel, in a slight temperature differences, would be microscopic , compared to the moisture expansion between metal and wood. ^^^^^^^^^^^ According to this web site http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html The thermal expansion coefficient for steel is 0.0000073 (in/inºF), for aluminum is 0.0000123 (in/inºF) and for wood ~ 0.0000025 (in/inºF) So a 15-foot long steel pipe that changed 1000ºF in temperature would expand in length by 1.314" (33mm). A two-foot long steel pipe with a 1000ºF temperature change would expand 0.175 inches (4mm). For a 30' steel-hulled boat with an aluminum or wood deck, with a temperature change of 100ºF: steel change: 0.263 inches (1/4", 7mm) aluminum change: 0.443 inches (7/16", 11mm) wood change: 0.09 inches (3/32", 2mm)| 29417|29345|2012-11-14 13:01:37|jhess314|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > Yes but in a house the siding on the house probably isn't vapor proof the way a steel or fiberglass hull is. Any moisture that gets on the hull side of the vapor barrier will be staying their and causing mold, rust etcc... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > I am not sure what I would do. Plastic vapour barrier is how it is done in a house > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ In a house the vapor barrier is placed near the edge of the warm side of the wall. So in a cold-weather climate, where you are heating the house, the vapor barrier should be near the inside of the house, typically right behind the sheetrock (though the sheetrock and paint itself can be a vapor barrier if constructed properly). And, ideally, the outside of the wall should then be vapor-permeable to allow any moisture that may get into the wall to evaporate and escape. (Interestingly, uncoated plywood is vapor-permeable, but oriented strand board (OSB) not so much.) But in a hot-weather climate where you are cooling the interior air, the vapor barrier should, again, be on the warm side of the wall, which in this case is the outer side of the wall. And the interior side of the wall should be left vapor-permeable. So it is a challenge to build a house that is located in both a strongly cooling climate and a strongly heating climate. A boat, with its vapor-impermeable hull, is naturally designed to work well in a hot climate where you might be cooling the interior air -- almost any kind of insulation would work in the tropics. But they are a poorly design to work well in a cold climate where you are heating the interior air, because the main vapor barrier (the hull) is on the cold side of the 'wall' assembly, and not on the warm side of the 'wall'. So I would agree with a number of posters that one of the best options is to use a closed-cell foam that is attached to the hull, to prevent moist warm interior vapor from reaching the cold hull and condensing. You can either spray the foam onto the hull, or you can adhere flexible sheet foam to the hull. If you do a meticulous job of insulating the whole hull (and if you don't have any leaks or other water sources) you will have dry bilges, so you might as well insulate the below-waterline area of the hull as well. John| 29418|29345|2012-11-14 15:05:56|Paul Wilson|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|I would foam from the cabin sole or floors up.....there must be no standing water next to foam so if the edge of the foam is under the floor there must be a good flow of any water into the bilge sump. I painted my foam with cheap latex paint (sundeck coating). In many areas you must trim the foam back to fix the interior and this helps seal it. I can't remember if there was a mildew-cide in the paint or not but there has never been any mold. I was told that it adds a little fire protection as well but this is probably wishful thinking. Paul On 15/11/2012 2:30 a.m., richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Plenty of questions... > So this particular boat was wet due to being sunk, rather than from > absorbing water vapour? > Is the idea of covering the foam's surface with plenty of latex paint > partly to slow down absorption of water? I get the idea of the flame > retardant coating. Would latex paint still cure okay if you mixed > borax into the last coat or 2? Like interior antifouling. > > What do you think about foaming below to waterline, stopping at the > cabin sole height? And maybe blowing some foam on the undersides of > the floorboards themselves, to insulate the cabin sole? > Lastly, does closed cell foam draw water in for the full width of > itself? (ie will you always end up with damp next to the epoxied inner > hull, or will the water not penetrate that far?) > > I had no idea that closed cell foam could be prone to this. There > probably isn't an everlasting, totally waterproof insulation after > all! Just one that lasts as long as I do would be okay... > | 29419|29345|2012-11-14 16:09:31|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Thanks Paul, what you've done makes sense to me. How long have you had your boat now?  I wonder about what the lifespan of sprayed in closed cell foam is likely to be in a Northern climate, given the tales of woe about sogginess. Does water really drain out of the bottom of the foam? Or am I misreading what Brent was suggesting? ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 20:02 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation I would foam from the cabin sole or floors up.....there must be no standing water next to foam so if the edge of the foam is under the floor there must be a good flow of any water into the bilge sump.  I painted my foam with cheap latex paint (sundeck coating).    In many areas you must trim the foam back to fix the interior and this helps seal it.  I can't remember if there was a mildew-cide in the paint or not but there has never been any mold.  I was told that it adds a little fire protection as well but this is probably wishful thinking.  Paul On 15/11/2012 2:30 a.m., richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Plenty of questions... > So this particular boat was wet due to being sunk, rather than from > absorbing water vapour? > Is the idea of covering the foam's surface with plenty of latex paint > partly to slow down absorption of water? I get the idea of the flame > retardant coating. Would latex paint still cure okay if you mixed > borax into the last coat or 2? Like interior antifouling. > > What do you think about foaming below to waterline, stopping at the > cabin sole height? And maybe blowing some foam on the undersides of > the floorboards themselves, to insulate the cabin sole? > Lastly, does closed cell foam draw water in for the full width of > itself? (ie will you always end up with damp next to the epoxied inner > hull, or will the water not penetrate that far?) > > I had no idea that closed cell foam could be prone to this. There > probably isn't an everlasting, totally waterproof insulation after > all! Just one that lasts as long as I do would be okay... > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29420|26895|2012-11-14 20:13:22|David Jones|Re: ALU BS36|This is an excellent write-up! Epoxy construction is a high tech method and needs to be worked with as such. It can give excellent results, as can all other materials with each materials particular limitations... there are no magic bullets... dj On Wed, 14 Nov 2012, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > The problem with opening/failing epoxy joints under changing (aka > rising) temperatures comes mostly from lacking temperature/uncontrolled > climates when curing first time. > > I was working with a couple different boatyards and wainwrights and two > university research labs, with epoxy from dirt-cheap noname to pricy > west system, glueing merely everthing from salvaged white wood to any > sorts of ply to real Kalimantan teak: > > Mainly the found probs were the same: You do have to cure epoxy under > securely controlled climate and temperatures of roundabout more than 20 > degrees Celsius ABOVE the temperature it is meant for in all-day-use > later on. > > And You do have to adjust all parts You want to joint to the controlled > dry warm environment well before glueing mandatory, otherwise there > might arise probs with condensing damp You would see on a tin, but You > won't see on wood (while it would still be there in reasonable amounts.) > > Curing an important joint on a mild winterdays morning in a shady barn > open to a nice sea-breeze, merely just waiting to stop the goo feeling > all that sticky instead of "curing" isn't the way to go with epoxy. > > We glued some four meters high and 30 meters long nicely rounded gluelam > trusses for use as roofing of a thermal spa (lots of damp in normal use > conditions, what brought us from "proven" Kaurit to West System > epoxy...) in snowloaden Tirol/Austria with epoxy, under controlled > climates, kept in place with vacuum mostly, and tempering each whole > thingy with 110 degrees Celsius for the roundabout 15 hours of curing > with excellent results some 18 years ago (my biggest/most advanced > project so far). > > Cutting/bending/welding mild steel or aluminimum does need a whole lot > less technological effort than lamellating a proper epoxy-veneer hull or > even a wellstrained deckbeam for sure, though. > > This is what brings woodheaded Neandertalers into contact with > Cro-Magnon-origami. > > two cents to the dryrot: wood is prone to fungus, no matter what sort of > "encapsulating" You try, that's simply nature like gravity, even teak > will go this natural way once the wax inside is washed out.. Keeping an > eye upon an easily and well repairable construction will help more than > "encpsulate" a monolithe of high complexity, as long as You want to have > a lot of fun with Your wooden boat for years. > > The all-laminated extremely complex lightweight veneer-racers are meant > as nice one-way-solutions to enable keen owners getting rid of heaps of > money in no time while trying to gain an oddly shaped saucer with their > name engraved ... nothing to be taken serious in terms of cruize-boating > or liveaboard, unless You are boatbuilder and make a living of those > heaps of money. > > A wooden boat will rot. > > The wooden boater will know, keep an eye, and be prepared to change some > rotting parts in time. > > A steel boat will rust. > > The steel boater will know and keep an eye on her difficult points and > caress her in time. > | 29421|26895|2012-11-14 20:42:01|Gary H. Lucas|Re: ALU BS36|Look up bamboo. My old Post Versalog slide rule was made from bamboo so that temperature changes wouldn’t affect it’s length and therefore it’s accuracy. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: jhess314 Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > As for thermal expansion, I once asked my father, a steam engineer all his life , how much expansion would I get in a steel exhaust pipe at 1,000 degrees, if it were two feet long. He laughed, and said "A quarter inch in 15 feet."So the difference in expansion between aluminium and steel, in a slight temperature differences, would be microscopic , compared to the moisture expansion between metal and wood. ^^^^^^^^^^^ According to this web site http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html The thermal expansion coefficient for steel is 0.0000073 (in/inºF), for aluminum is 0.0000123 (in/inºF) and for wood ~ 0.0000025 (in/inºF) So a 15-foot long steel pipe that changed 1000ºF in temperature would expand in length by 1.314" (33mm). A two-foot long steel pipe with a 1000ºF temperature change would expand 0.175 inches (4mm). For a 30' steel-hulled boat with an aluminum or wood deck, with a temperature change of 100ºF: steel change: 0.263 inches (1/4", 7mm) aluminum change: 0.443 inches (7/16", 11mm) wood change: 0.09 inches (3/32", 2mm) Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29422|26895|2012-11-14 21:58:44|Tom|Re: ALU BS36|..... LOL ..... A "slide what" .....???? Was that a "bamboo" iPad .... ???? ________________________________ From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, November 14, 2012 5:42:19 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 Look up bamboo. My old Post Versalog slide rule was made from bamboo so that temperature changes wouldn’t affect it’s length and therefore it’s accuracy. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: jhess314 Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > As for thermal expansion, I once asked my father, a steam engineer all his life >, how much expansion would I get in a steel exhaust pipe at 1,000 degrees, if it >were two feet long. He laughed, and said "A quarter inch in 15 feet."So the >difference in expansion between aluminium and steel, in a slight temperature >differences, would be microscopic , compared to the moisture expansion between >metal and wood. > ^^^^^^^^^^^ According to this web site http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html The thermal expansion coefficient for steel is 0.0000073 (in/inºF), for aluminum is 0.0000123 (in/inºF) and for wood ~ 0.0000025 (in/inºF) So a 15-foot long steel pipe that changed 1000ºF in temperature would expand in length by 1.314" (33mm). A two-foot long steel pipe with a 1000ºF temperature change would expand 0.175 inches (4mm). For a 30' steel-hulled boat with an aluminum or wood deck, with a temperature change of 100ºF: steel change: 0.263 inches (1/4", 7mm) aluminum change: 0.443 inches (7/16", 11mm) wood change: 0.09 inches (3/32", 2mm) Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29423|29345|2012-11-15 07:18:43|mkriley48|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|you will never have absolutely dry bilges it is just a matter of when you get water in it not if. All it takes is a summer rainstorm with the hatches open. sometimes you will introduce water by trying to fix something. On a steel boat the bilges and the anchor locker are the rust prone areas. Needs to be available to touch up problem areas. also bilges need to be clear for bilge pumps. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > > > Yes but in a house the siding on the house probably isn't vapor proof the way a steel or fiberglass hull is. Any moisture that gets on the hull side of the vapor barrier will be staying their and causing mold, rust etcc... > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am not sure what I would do. Plastic vapour barrier is how it is done in a house > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > In a house the vapor barrier is placed near the edge of the warm side of the wall. So in a cold-weather climate, where you are heating the house, the vapor barrier should be near the inside of the house, typically right behind the sheetrock (though the sheetrock and paint itself can be a vapor barrier if constructed properly). And, ideally, the outside of the wall should then be vapor-permeable to allow any moisture that may get into the wall to evaporate and escape. (Interestingly, uncoated plywood is vapor-permeable, but oriented strand board (OSB) not so much.) > > But in a hot-weather climate where you are cooling the interior air, the vapor barrier should, again, be on the warm side of the wall, which in this case is the outer side of the wall. And the interior side of the wall should be left vapor-permeable. So it is a challenge to build a house that is located in both a strongly cooling climate and a strongly heating climate. > > A boat, with its vapor-impermeable hull, is naturally designed to work well in a hot climate where you might be cooling the interior air -- almost any kind of insulation would work in the tropics. But they are a poorly design to work well in a cold climate where you are heating the interior air, because the main vapor barrier (the hull) is on the cold side of the 'wall' assembly, and not on the warm side of the 'wall'. > > So I would agree with a number of posters that one of the best options is to use a closed-cell foam that is attached to the hull, to prevent moist warm interior vapor from reaching the cold hull and condensing. You can either spray the foam onto the hull, or you can adhere flexible sheet foam to the hull. If you do a meticulous job of insulating the whole hull (and if you don't have any leaks or other water sources) you will have dry bilges, so you might as well insulate the below-waterline area of the hull as well. > > John > | 29424|29345|2012-11-15 07:25:38|scott|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Yes painting the foam is almost mandatory for fire protection. The foam itself depending on formulation can catch fire fairly easily. Once a structure lined with foam catches on fire and reaches a certain temp, it will reach the flash point of the foam very quickly and almost all the foam with burst into flame instantly and heat the interior of the structure to multiple thousand degree temps in very very little time. The foam acts both as fuel and insulation to trap all heat and reflect it back into the interior. Do a search on fires in spray foam interiors, it is scary stuff. Painting with a fire retardant paint such as acrylic or even a specialty paint keeps the foam from flashing in to widespread fire. even if you get a bit to burn in a ding in the paint it won't spread fast as it won't spread over the surface of the foam until the paint is consumed. this slows it down drastically. There are fire retardant grades of foam and I would use one of those.. Ideally I would use one of the intumescent? fire retardant paints that will stop 2000 degrees direct flame contact for up to 20 minutes. You can just about be guaranteed your boat won't burn with that stuff. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: emember if there was a mildew-cide in the paint or > not but there has never been any mold. I was told that it adds a > little fire protection as well but this is probably wishful thinking. Paul > > On 15/11/2012 2:30 a.m., richard.barwell@... wrote: > > | 29425|29345|2012-11-15 08:32:20|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|If You'll get the spray-man coming to Your construction site with his stuff, You could ask him to bring a formulation of foam that inhibits fire. There's a lot of differently formulated foams on the market, some of them even self-extinguishing when set in flames by mere heat of an engine/exhaust nearby (won't work with leakages of combsutibles, though.) But: The adding of ONE primary characteristic like fire-inhibition may change some or the lot of the other essential qualities particularly. Am 15.11.2012 um 13:25 schrieb scott: > Yes painting the foam is almost mandatory for fire protection. The foam itself depending on formulation can catch fire fairly easily. Once a structure lined with foam catches on fire and reaches a certain temp, it will reach the flash point of the foam very quickly and almost all the foam with burst into flame instantly and heat the interior of the structure to multiple thousand degree temps in very very little time. The foam acts both as fuel and insulation to trap all heat and reflect it back into the interior. Do a search on fires in spray foam interiors, it is scary stuff. > > Painting with a fire retardant paint such as acrylic or even a specialty paint keeps the foam from flashing in to widespread fire. even if you get a bit to burn in a ding in the paint it won't spread fast as it won't spread over the surface of the foam until the paint is consumed. this slows it down drastically. There are fire retardant grades of foam and I would use one of those.. Ideally I would use one of the intumescent? fire retardant paints that will stop 2000 degrees direct flame contact for up to 20 minutes. You can just about be guaranteed your boat won't burn with that stuff. > > Scott > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > emember if there was a mildew-cide in the paint or > > not but there has never been any mold. I was told that it adds a > > little fire protection as well but this is probably wishful thinking. Paul > > > > On 15/11/2012 2:30 a.m., richard.barwell@... wrote: > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29426|26895|2012-11-15 10:15:21|Tom Mann|Re: ALU BS36|Thanks according to the info aluminum is a little more than 50% so on my cabin/cockpit being about 18' long I would get about 1/8" difference 1/16" on the ends Looks like I have to change the angle on my cabin sides, I ran about 15% angle for better looks, wont look right with pilot house, need to go between 7 to 10% On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 9:11 AM, jhess314 wrote > > > According to this web site > > http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html > > The thermal expansion coefficient for steel is 0.0000073 (in/inºF), > for aluminum is 0.0000123 (in/inºF) > and for wood ~ 0.0000025 (in/inºF) > > So a 15-foot long steel pipe that changed 1000ºF in temperature would > expand in length by 1.314" (33mm). A two-foot long steel pipe with a 1000ºF > temperature change would expand 0.175 inches (4mm). > > For a 30' steel-hulled boat with an aluminum or wood deck, with a > temperature change of 100ºF: > steel change: 0.263 inches (1/4", 7mm) > aluminum change: 0.443 inches (7/16", 11mm) > wood change: 0.09 inches (3/32", 2mm) > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29427|26895|2012-11-15 10:56:13|jhess314|Re: ALU BS36|I've had metal, plastic and wood slide rules. I don't think temperature change particularly affected their accuracy, as long as all the critical parts expanded/contracted at the same rate. So you wouldn't want one of the scales made of aluminum and another scale made of wood. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Look up bamboo. My old Post Versalog slide rule was made from bamboo so that temperature changes wouldn’t affect it’s length and therefore it’s accuracy. > > Gary H. Lucas > | 29428|29345|2012-11-15 12:09:17|Gord Schnell|Re: Thermal insulation industrial epoxy|I had my BS40 spray-foamed about 5 years ago. I then had to shave the foam to achieve a fairly consistent 2 inch thickness. When I was satisfied with the finish, I painted all exposed foam surfaces with Zinser 123. NO signs of moisture, condensation or rust anywhere except the bilge, which was left painted but not spray-foamed. I have done substantial welding in the interior since foaming. No fires. It smoulders where the slag lands, but does not ignite. Seems like we have a good solution here. Gord On 2012-11-14, at 5:12 AM, Robert Jones wrote: > Paul, i think you hit the nail on the head when you said "epoxy painted hull". It seems to me that everyone's suggestions add up to CLOSED CELL FOAM, in OPEN BILGES, applied on properly prepared and EPOXY COATED HULL. Also, if i were able, i might add one of the insulating paints such as Nansulate over the epoxy prior to spraying foam. Expensive, yes, but the three main things you said that matter to me were "absolutely no problems" , "20 years later" and "I would definitely go again with spray foam on a metal hull." Pretty strong testament. Thanks for the input! robert > > --- On Tue, 11/13/12, Paul Wilson wrote: > > From: Paul Wilson > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Thermal insulation industrial epoxy > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 8:36 PM > > I lived a few years on my boat in wintertime in Vancouver. One winter is > was record cold temperatures and stayed below -10 C for several > weeks...... I have 1 1/2 inch spray foam on hull and 1 inch on deck with > the bilge having no foam. The portholes would sweat in winter time but > there was no sweating anywhere else. The bilge or floors had no > condensation. I believe this might be because under the waterline it > would never get as cold as on deck because under the waterline it stays > above freezing temperature. > > I have no idea if it is closed cell but it is the standard commercially > applied spray foam. If immersed, it will eventually absorb water but on > the hull and deck it stays dry and is great insulation. After more than > 20 years, the foam has stayed attached to the epoxy painted hull with > absolutely no problems. I would definitely go again with spray foam on a > metal hull. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 14/11/2012 3:21 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > That what puzzles me... Metal hull should be insulated by foam, but it > > is need to leave bilge area, tanks' tops free from foam insulation. I > > suspect engine mounts, etc as well. And that where water condensate > > will be... > > > > It should be some way to do thermal insulation in these areas... I > > tried to find Thermal Insulation Epoxy, but did not get much. I only > > found one product so far on Internet for industrial use - "Nansulate" > > > > http://www.nansulate.com/nansulate_industrial_casestudies.htm# > > > > Is there any others? > > > > P.S. Hopefully floor will give some thermal insulation as well > > (plywood, wood, SS or steel on thermal insulators). > > > > Brent recommends to trim the foam and saturate trimmed foam with > > paint. It should prevent the foam from absorbing water through the paint. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I remember working on a fibreglass boat, which had hit the rocks, > > and had to be left a month to let the water drain out of what was > > labeled as closed cell foam. > > > Fishboats here have closed cell foam sprayed into their holds, right > > down to the bilge, which makes it a wick, which wicks up the water til > > it rots the bottom out. The only way to let water out is to leave the > > lowest point foam free so it can drain. No foam can resist water > > indefinitely. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29429|29280|2012-11-15 17:52:56|Ted|Re: Ultrasonic antifouling|Thanks Yves-Marie, All the reviews rate them well. I was rather hoping that someone had made one from parts out of a catalogue. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "yvesmariedetanton" wrote: > > Check: http://www.wavetrain.net/the-lunacy-report > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ted" wrote: > > > > There are several companies offering ultrasonic antifouling equipment. Does anyone have any experience of ultrasonic antifouling? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > | 29430|29345|2012-11-15 18:45:41|Gord Schnell|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|I had my BS40 spray foamed about 5 yrs ago. I shaved it to get a fairly consistent 2 inch thickness. When I was happy with the finish I painted all exposed foam surfaces with Zinser 123. NO signs of moisture or condensation anywhere but the bilge which was left uninsulated. Definitely works well. Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2012-11-13, at 6:32 PM, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > Yes, persistent moisture would be a problem. I was thinking porch paint on the inside of the hull - inexpensive polyester I think. And leave the vapour barrier open in the bilge so that water can drip out, collect and be pumped away. An ordinary cover over the bilge would maintain the temperature difference allowing the hull to be a natural dehumidifier for the interior of the cabin. > > Is it better that foam slowly absorbs moisture and moulds? I would sooner remove the interior in segments and scrub and apply an anti-mould solution. I am not sure I have seen mould grow on steel, let alone well. > > Matt > > Zingzer (sp?) Apparently sells anti-mould paint. > > scott wrote: > > Yes but in a house the siding on the house probably isn't vapor proof the way a steel or fiberglass hull is. Any moisture that gets on the hull side of the vapor barrier will be staying their and causing mold, rust etcc... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > I am not sure what I would do. Plastic vapour barrier is how it is done in a h > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29431|29345|2012-11-15 18:49:40|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Sorry about the double post.... Phone issues this AM. Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2012-11-15, at 3:46 PM, Gord Schnell wrote: > I had my BS40 spray foamed about 5 yrs ago. I shaved it to get a fairly consistent 2 inch thickness. When I was happy with the finish I painted all exposed foam surfaces with Zinser 123. NO signs of moisture or condensation anywhere but the bilge which was left uninsulated. Definitely works well. Gord > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2012-11-13, at 6:32 PM, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > > Yes, persistent moisture would be a problem. I was thinking porch paint on the inside of the hull - inexpensive polyester I think. And leave the vapour barrier open in the bilge so that water can drip out, collect and be pumped away. An ordinary cover over the bilge would maintain the temperature difference allowing the hull to be a natural dehumidifier for the interior of the cabin. > > > > Is it better that foam slowly absorbs moisture and moulds? I would sooner remove the interior in segments and scrub and apply an anti-mould solution. I am not sure I have seen mould grow on steel, let alone well. > > > > Matt > > > > Zingzer (sp?) Apparently sells anti-mould paint. > > > > scott wrote: > > > > Yes but in a house the siding on the house probably isn't vapor proof the way a steel or fiberglass hull is. Any moisture that gets on the hull side of the vapor barrier will be staying their and causing mold, rust etcc... > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am not sure what I would do. Plastic vapour barrier is how it is done in a h > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29432|29345|2012-11-15 18:54:07|Paul Wilson|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Yes, I think this moisture and mold problem is not as big deal as some think. No deck leaks or condensation with a well insulated metal hull makes for a very dry boat. Paul On 16/11/2012 12:45 p.m., Gord Schnell wrote: > > I had my BS40 spray foamed about 5 yrs ago. I shaved it to get a > fairly consistent 2 inch thickness. When I was happy with the finish I > painted all exposed foam surfaces with Zinser 123. NO signs of > moisture or condensation anywhere but the bilge which was left > uninsulated. Definitely works well. Gord > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2012-11-13, at 6:32 PM, "M.J. Malone" > wrote: > > > Yes, persistent moisture would be a problem. I was thinking porch > paint on the inside of the hull - inexpensive polyester I think. And > leave the vapour barrier open in the bilge so that water can drip out, > collect and be pumped away. An ordinary cover over the bilge would > maintain the temperature difference allowing the hull to be a natural > dehumidifier for the interior of the cabin. > > > > Is it better that foam slowly absorbs moisture and moulds? I would > sooner remove the interior in segments and scrub and apply an > anti-mould solution. I am not sure I have seen mould grow on steel, > let alone well. > > > > Matt > > > | 29433|29345|2012-11-15 20:32:12|Gary H. Lucas|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|I had a apple grower customer once with huge warehouse coolers, a whole row of them. The old ones were cork insulated. They built a new one with spray foam insulation about 4 inches thick. The plumber was piping in the cooling units and started the foam on fire with his torch. They hadn’t yet sprayed on the outer coating on the foam. The foam burned so hot it set the coolers on both sides of it on fire, and the whole place burned to the ground, about 6 buildings! Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: scott Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 7:25 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation Yes painting the foam is almost mandatory for fire protection. The foam itself depending on formulation can catch fire fairly easily. Once a structure lined with foam catches on fire and reaches a certain temp, it will reach the flash point of the foam very quickly and almost all the foam with burst into flame instantly and heat the interior of the structure to multiple thousand degree temps in very very little time. The foam acts both as fuel and insulation to trap all heat and reflect it back into the interior. Do a search on fires in spray foam interiors, it is scary stuff. Painting with a fire retardant paint such as acrylic or even a specialty paint keeps the foam from flashing in to widespread fire. even if you get a bit to burn in a ding in the paint it won't spread fast as it won't spread over the surface of the foam until the paint is consumed. this slows it down drastically. There are fire retardant grades of foam and I would use one of those.. Ideally I would use one of the intumescent? fire retardant paints that will stop 2000 degrees direct flame contact for up to 20 minutes. You can just about be guaranteed your boat won't burn with that stuff. Scott --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: emember if there was a mildew-cide in the paint or > not but there has never been any mold. I was told that it adds a > little fire protection as well but this is probably wishful thinking. Paul > > On 15/11/2012 2:30 a.m., richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29434|26895|2012-11-15 20:36:36|Gary H. Lucas|Re: ALU BS36|John, I think you’d be correct if the scales were linear. Slide rule scales aren’t linear they are logarithmic, so the same length change at one is a different value at the other end. So the error might be quite significant. Gary H. Lucas From: jhess314 Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 10:56 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 I've had metal, plastic and wood slide rules. I don't think temperature change particularly affected their accuracy, as long as all the critical parts expanded/contracted at the same rate. So you wouldn't want one of the scales made of aluminum and another scale made of wood. John --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Look up bamboo. My old Post Versalog slide rule was made from bamboo so that temperature changes wouldn’t affect it’s length and therefore it’s accuracy. > > Gary H. Lucas > Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29435|26895|2012-11-15 21:01:39|Paul Wilson|Re: ALU BS36|On aluminum aircraft, the steel control cables are tensioned according to the temperature of the day because the aluminum airframe will expand or contract at a different rate than the steel cables. The steel cables tend to be lose on cold days and tight on hot days and . If not done correctly they can be so slack you end up with sloppy controls or so tight that they bind and jam. Makes for an exciting flight. Cheers, Paul On 16/11/2012 4:15 a.m., Tom Mann wrote: > > Thanks > according to the info aluminum is a little more than 50% so on my > cabin/cockpit being about 18' long I would get about 1/8" difference 1/16" > on the ends > | 29436|26895|2012-11-16 09:08:48|jhess314|Re: ALU BS36|Gary, The *only* thing you can do on a slide rule is add and subtract, which is linear. The scales are logarithmic to permit you to find products and quotients, etc, by adding and subtracting. If, say, you double the distance between each tick mark on a logarithmic scale, either by heating the (aluminum) slide rule, or just by making the (bamboo) slide rule twice as big, you won't change the function/accuracy of the scale. I've seen very small slide rules (1"-long tie clasp) and very large slide rules (6'-long classroom demonstration model). They all work the same. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > John, > I think you'd be correct if the scales were linear. Slide rule scales arenâ't linear they are logarithmic, so the same length change at one is a different value at the other end. So the error might be quite significant. > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: jhess314 > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 10:56 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > > I've had metal, plastic and wood slide rules. I don't think temperature change particularly affected their accuracy, as long as all the critical parts expanded/contracted at the same rate. So you wouldn't want one of the scales made of aluminum and another scale made of wood. > John > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Look up bamboo. My old Post Versalog slide rule was made from bamboo so that temperature changes wouldn’t affect it’s length and therefore it’s accuracy. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29437|29345|2012-11-17 17:28:59|brentswain38|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|One of my 36 footers caught fire in Frisco bay. Despite it getting hot enough to turn his electronics into plastic stalactites, when the fire hit the foam which was painted with cheap latex paint, the fire went out. Closing the hatches and cutting off the oxygen, puts a boat fire out very quickly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I had a apple grower customer once with huge warehouse coolers, a whole row of them. The old ones were cork insulated. They built a new one with spray foam insulation about 4 inches thick. The plumber was piping in the cooling units and started the foam on fire with his torch. They hadn’t yet sprayed on the outer coating on the foam. The foam burned so hot it set the coolers on both sides of it on fire, and the whole place burned to the ground, about 6 buildings! > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > From: scott > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 7:25 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation > klu > > Yes painting the foam is almost mandatory for fire protection. The foam itself depending on formulation can catch fire fairly easily. Once a structure lined with foam catches on fire and reaches a certain temp, it will reach the flash point of the foam very quickly and almost all the foam with burst into flame instantly and heat the interior of the structure to multiple thousand degree temps in very very little time. The foam acts both as fuel and insulation to trap all heat and reflect it back into the interior. Do a search on fires in spray foam interiors, it is scary stuff. > > Painting with a fire retardant paint such as acrylic or even a specialty paint keeps the foam from flashing in to widespread fire. even if you get a bit to burn in a ding in the paint it won't spread fast as it won't spread over the surface of the foam until the paint is consumed. this slows it down drastically. There are fire retardant grades of foam and I would use one of those.. Ideally I would use one of the intumescent? fire retardant paints that will stop 2000 degrees direct flame contact for up to 20 minutes. You can just about be guaranteed your boat won't burn with that stuff. > > Scott > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > emember if there was a mildew-cide in the paint or > > not but there has never been any mold. I was told that it adds a > > little fire protection as well but this is probably wishful thinking. Paul > > > > On 15/11/2012 2:30 a.m., richard.barwell@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29438|29345|2012-11-17 17:31:49|brentswain38|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|A dark hull colour, which heats up in winter sun, an inch and a half of spray foam, and much use of the wood stove, has prevented any noticeable mold in my boat over 28 years. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > Yes, persistent moisture would be a problem. I was thinking porch paint on the inside of the hull - inexpensive polyester I think. And leave the vapour barrier open in the bilge so that water can drip out, collect and be pumped away. An ordinary cover over the bilge would maintain the temperature difference allowing the hull to be a natural dehumidifier for the interior of the cabin. > > Is it better that foam slowly absorbs moisture and moulds? I would sooner remove the interior in segments and scrub and apply an anti-mould solution. I am not sure I have seen mould grow on steel, let alone well. > > Matt > > Zingzer (sp?) Apparently sells anti-mould paint. > > scott wrote: > > Yes but in a house the siding on the house probably isn't vapor proof the way a steel or fiberglass hull is. Any moisture that gets on the hull side of the vapor barrier will be staying their and causing mold, rust etcc... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > I am not sure what I would do. Plastic vapour barrier is how it is done in a h > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29439|29345|2012-11-17 17:34:11|brentswain38|Re: Thermal insulation industrial epoxy|Carpet on the floor reduces bilge condensation by 80% and heat loss by 35%. I have insulated the underside of my floor boards, with half inch foam, for an even greater effect --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I lived a few years on my boat in wintertime in Vancouver. One winter is > was record cold temperatures and stayed below -10 C for several > weeks...... I have 1 1/2 inch spray foam on hull and 1 inch on deck with > the bilge having no foam. The portholes would sweat in winter time but > there was no sweating anywhere else. The bilge or floors had no > condensation. I believe this might be because under the waterline it > would never get as cold as on deck because under the waterline it stays > above freezing temperature. > > I have no idea if it is closed cell but it is the standard commercially > applied spray foam. If immersed, it will eventually absorb water but on > the hull and deck it stays dry and is great insulation. After more than > 20 years, the foam has stayed attached to the epoxy painted hull with > absolutely no problems. I would definitely go again with spray foam on a > metal hull. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 14/11/2012 3:21 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > That what puzzles me... Metal hull should be insulated by foam, but it > > is need to leave bilge area, tanks' tops free from foam insulation. I > > suspect engine mounts, etc as well. And that where water condensate > > will be... > > > > It should be some way to do thermal insulation in these areas... I > > tried to find Thermal Insulation Epoxy, but did not get much. I only > > found one product so far on Internet for industrial use - "Nansulate" > > > > http://www.nansulate.com/nansulate_industrial_casestudies.htm# > > > > Is there any others? > > > > P.S. Hopefully floor will give some thermal insulation as well > > (plywood, wood, SS or steel on thermal insulators). > > > > Brent recommends to trim the foam and saturate trimmed foam with > > paint. It should prevent the foam from absorbing water through the paint. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I remember working on a fibreglass boat, which had hit the rocks, > > and had to be left a month to let the water drain out of what was > > labeled as closed cell foam. > > > Fishboats here have closed cell foam sprayed into their holds, right > > down to the bilge, which makes it a wick, which wicks up the water til > > it rots the bottom out. The only way to let water out is to leave the > > lowest point foam free so it can drain. No foam can resist water > > indefinitely. > > > > > > > > | 29440|29345|2012-11-17 17:37:23|brentswain38|Re: Thermal insulation industrial epoxy|Many of the commercially built hulls here in BC ( Foulkes, Fehr) have no epoxy inside under the foam, and thus corrode out in a relatively short time, from the inside. Spray foam does not protect the steel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Paul, i think you hit the nail on the head when you said "epoxy painted hull". It seems to me that everyone's suggestions add up to CLOSED CELL FOAM, in OPEN BILGES, applied on properly prepared and EPOXY COATED HULL. Also, if i were able, i might add one of the insulating paints such as Nansulate over the epoxy prior to spraying foam. Expensive, yes, but the three main things you said that matter to me were  "absolutely no problems" , "20 years later" and "I would definitely go again with spray foam on a metal hull." Pretty strong testament. Thanks for the input!   robert > > --- On Tue, 11/13/12, Paul Wilson wrote: > > From: Paul Wilson > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Thermal insulation industrial epoxy > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 8:36 PM > > I lived a few years on my boat in wintertime in Vancouver. One winter is > was record cold temperatures and stayed below -10 C for several > weeks...... I have 1 1/2 inch spray foam on hull and 1 inch on deck with > the bilge having no foam. The portholes would sweat in winter time but > there was no sweating anywhere else. The bilge or floors had no > condensation. I believe this might be because under the waterline it > would never get as cold as on deck because under the waterline it stays > above freezing temperature. > > I have no idea if it is closed cell but it is the standard commercially > applied spray foam. If immersed, it will eventually absorb water but on > the hull and deck it stays dry and is great insulation. After more than > 20 years, the foam has stayed attached to the epoxy painted hull with > absolutely no problems. I would definitely go again with spray foam on a > metal hull. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 14/11/2012 3:21 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > That what puzzles me... Metal hull should be insulated by foam, but it > > is need to leave bilge area, tanks' tops free from foam insulation. I > > suspect engine mounts, etc as well. And that where water condensate > > will be... > > > > It should be some way to do thermal insulation in these areas... I > > tried to find Thermal Insulation Epoxy, but did not get much. I only > > found one product so far on Internet for industrial use - "Nansulate" > > > > http://www.nansulate.com/nansulate_industrial_casestudies.htm# > > > > Is there any others? > > > > P.S. Hopefully floor will give some thermal insulation as well > > (plywood, wood, SS or steel on thermal insulators). > > > > Brent recommends to trim the foam and saturate trimmed foam with > > paint. It should prevent the foam from absorbing water through the paint. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I remember working on a fibreglass boat, which had hit the rocks, > > and had to be left a month to let the water drain out of what was > > labeled as closed cell foam. > > > Fishboats here have closed cell foam sprayed into their holds, right > > down to the bilge, which makes it a wick, which wicks up the water til > > it rots the bottom out. The only way to let water out is to leave the > > lowest point foam free so it can drain. No foam can resist water > > indefinitely. > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29441|26895|2012-11-17 17:39:41|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|When steel only expands 1/4 inch in 15 feet at 1200 degrees of temperature, 50% more than that is still not much expansion, certainly compared to wet and dry wood. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Yes very true > From what I have been reading but can't confirm is aluminum expands > and contracts 50% more than steel . > I don't think a permanent bonding goop would be to good to use in the > joint. What I am thinking of using is 1/8" thick rubber gasket and use the > black goop that is used on windows, stays flexible. wont last forever but > at least I can take it apart and replace when needed. > > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Larry Dale wrote: > > > Correct me if I'm wrong but,different materials have different > > co-efficients of expansion. As the temps rise and fall these materials work > > against each other and will eventually separate. > > > > --- On Tue, 11/13/12, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > From: Tom Mann > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: ALU BS36 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 9:41 AM > > > > > > Agree Brent But I think it's not just plywood, anytime you have an over > > lapping joint that is not 100% sealed and it gets moisture between your > > going to have problems with corrosion eventually, encapsulating the > > wood-plywood with epoxy resin and a light cloth would keep the wood > > isolated at the seams and give it a longer life > > > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:55 PM, brentswain38 > >wrote: > > > > > What works in the short term, and what still works after 25 years, are > > > completely different animals. The best advice on this can only come from > > > people who have dealt with a practise for over 25 years in the same boat. > > > Plywood only works in the short term, but becomes a disaster over time. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > > > bi-metal strips are available that are aluminum explosively joined to > > > > steel and so can be welded to both materials. it has no electrolysis > > > > and was developed to put aluminum cabins on steel hulls. > > > > Also just use steel deck beams with plywood decks and it works fine. > > > > I worked on many custom boats in the 70's that were built that way by > > > Direcktor yachts. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29442|26895|2012-11-17 17:43:42|brentswain38|Re: ALU BS36|I find that an inch to an inch and a quarter per foot of rise ,for cabin side and wheelhouse tumble home, is about right. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Thanks > according to the info aluminum is a little more than 50% so on my > cabin/cockpit being about 18' long I would get about 1/8" difference 1/16" > on the ends > Looks like I have to change the angle on my cabin sides, I ran about 15% > angle for better looks, wont look right with pilot house, need to go > between 7 to 10% > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 9:11 AM, jhess314 wrote > > > > > > According to this web site > > > > http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html > > > > The thermal expansion coefficient for steel is 0.0000073 (in/inºF), > > for aluminum is 0.0000123 (in/inºF) > > and for wood ~ 0.0000025 (in/inºF) > > > > So a 15-foot long steel pipe that changed 1000ºF in temperature would > > expand in length by 1.314" (33mm). A two-foot long steel pipe with a 1000ºF > > temperature change would expand 0.175 inches (4mm). > > > > For a 30' steel-hulled boat with an aluminum or wood deck, with a > > temperature change of 100ºF: > > steel change: 0.263 inches (1/4", 7mm) > > aluminum change: 0.443 inches (7/16", 11mm) > > wood change: 0.09 inches (3/32", 2mm) > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29443|29345|2012-11-17 17:49:52|jhess314|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Is the spray foam recommended for insulating boat hulls the same as the spray foam used to insulate buildings? If so, can a person who is a competent building sprayer do a good job spraying a hull, or are there different skills needed? John| 29444|29444|2012-11-17 21:47:37|wild_explorer|Tacking centerline|I found that making short tacks (1/4" with 1" space between centers or 1/2" with 2" space) works very well for centerline tacking. Sometimes I could not close small gap (1/16-1/32") with winch/comealong and short tacks do the job - I tack weld with 3/32" E6013 @100A AC. Another benefit of short tack welds if tack weld cracks/brakes (because of angle change between halves) it is easy to fix/grind it and make new tack next to it. It is easy to do final weld over good tack welds and remelt remaining metal with final weld with bigger electrode (1/8" or 5/32") and high current (about 180A AC for E7014 or E6013). It is easier vertically align halves' edges as well. P.S. It is need to follow Brent's recommendations for welding/tacking for some length from joint point.| 29445|29345|2012-11-18 00:42:46|Paul Wilson|Re: Thermal insulation industrial epoxy|I saw a Foulkes in a boat yard in Thailand....it was covered in pin holes, sitting for sale and in my mind a total write-off. I am not sure if it ever sold or not. The tsunami was the next year so maybe it ended up an insurance job. Paul On 18/11/2012 11:37 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > Many of the commercially built hulls here in BC ( Foulkes, Fehr) have > no epoxy inside under the foam, and thus corrode out in a relatively > short time, from the inside. Spray foam does not protect the steel. | 29446|29446|2012-11-18 09:38:28|southcoveemail|Plywood decks|I created a new subject to talk about my experience of a plywood deck bolted on a steel flange. I didn't know where to start inside the ALU BS36 discussion. I built a Wylo II 35' centreboard. The small triangular 7' long foredeck is steel. The main and after decks are 19mm plywood. The vertical front and aft parts of the main decks are also plywood. The deck is raised so the cabin sides with the 5 portholes are steel. There is a 6" wide 3 mm steel flange running around the deck. The beams are 1 1/4" x 2½" laminated spruce ash 15"o.c.. I cut the 5'x10' plywood sheets to size on the ground and cut the scarph in all the pieces. I landed the 1:8 scarphes on top of the beams. I bolted the side of the ply to the flange well bedded in polyurethane (PUR, cheaper version of 3M 5200). The plywood overlap the steel flange by 3". I used countersunk 8 mm galvanized bolts 2½" o.c.. I also glued the scarphes with PUR and nailed them to the beams. I used regular 4'x8' plywood for the after deck. I used PUR to fill the counterbored bolt holes. I put 2 layers of glass and epoxy to finish the deck. I also put a fillet of PUR along the plywood before painting. I use latex paint for the deck. I finally cut all the openings afterwards. This is built after specifications by Nick Skeates. The wood top saves enough weigh to allow for the shallower draft of the CB version. I get some condensation on the underside of the deck on cold nights and should insulate it some. I like the feel of wood underfoot. It is easy to modify: I cut and installed a new hatch behind the mast very easily. I like the ease of maintenance. It is a very simple deck to build not involving any cabin sides. I keep the steel-wood interface well painted. I am going to replace the forehatch with a higher one and this is going to be an easy modification. The boat is now 11 years old but has spent only about 2½" in the water. During that time 4-5 people lived aboard full time. We crossed 3 times the North Atlantic and sailed maybe 15.000 miles. If I had to do it again I would probably do the same except put a stainless steel flange for more peace of mind. I use a compass not compensated set in the lower part of the companionway. Cheers Thierry| 29447|1509|2012-11-18 09:59:03|southcoveemail|Insulation|This is also to say how I insulated my 35' Wylo II. After painting the inside I bolted wood cleats to the frames where I needed them and installed the bulkheads. I then put 2" fiberglass batts between the frames and ran them down to the bottom chine which is below the waterline. I covered the whole insulating material with a 6 mils plastic vapor barrier. I lined the whole inside with 5/16" tongue and groove V grooved pine boards running vertically. The wood lining is painted with a white latex paint. I then built the remaining accommodation parts. The deck steel flange running around the aft and main decks and the steel foredeck are also insulated in the manner. In the forepeak I continued the insulation down to the forefoot. Also in the aft parts of the boat the insulation covers the bottom. I have no engine so the boat doesn't get bilge water through any bearing. The only water that gets its way down below is the occasional spray or rain. I neglected to insulate the centerboard case and I need to do it for my next trip. There is no condensation on the case while at anchor because the water inside the case doesn't move and gets warm with the boat. When we are sailing in cold water the condensation start dripping from the case. Cheers Thierry| 29448|1509|2012-11-18 10:19:15|martin demers|Re: Insulation|Thierry, How is it to sail with no engine? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: thierry.msika@... Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 14:59:02 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Insulation This is also to say how I insulated my 35' Wylo II. After painting the inside I bolted wood cleats to the frames where I needed them and installed the bulkheads. I then put 2" fiberglass batts between the frames and ran them down to the bottom chine which is below the waterline. I covered the whole insulating material with a 6 mils plastic vapor barrier. I lined the whole inside with 5/16" tongue and groove V grooved pine boards running vertically. The wood lining is painted with a white latex paint. I then built the remaining accommodation parts. The deck steel flange running around the aft and main decks and the steel foredeck are also insulated in the manner. In the forepeak I continued the insulation down to the forefoot. Also in the aft parts of the boat the insulation covers the bottom. I have no engine so the boat doesn't get bilge water through any bearing. The only water that gets its way down below is the occasional spray or rain. I neglected to insulate the centerboard case and I need to do it for my next trip. There is no condensation on the case while at anchor because the water inside the case doesn't move and gets warm with the boat. When we are sailing in cold water the condensation start dripping from the case. Cheers Thierry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29449|29345|2012-11-18 10:41:33|Matt Malone|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Intumescent fire retardant paints can't give 20 minute protection to foam. http://contegofirebarrier.com/video.html Click Foam Burn Test It seems that the test piece swelled and broke open on the far side. If one held a match to the crack on the far side, I believe the escaping vapours would have lit on fire. Whatever coating you have, it has to have some thermal conductivity, and once the foam underneath gets hot enough to vapourize, those vapours have to go somewhere. I certainly is an impressive test. I cannot picture how one would get flame spread, given the amount of gas expended at the burner, an how much gas escaped the panel. Yes, flash-over will turn a closed space into a oven. The interior will char, outgas flammable gases, consuming all of the air, and the fire will move to burning at openings, where there is oxygen from outside. The volume becomes the gas generator for a blow-torch at every window. The heat cannot escape as fast as the burners at the openings are radiating heat back in. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gary.lucas@... Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:34:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation I had a apple grower customer once with huge warehouse coolers, a whole row of them. The old ones were cork insulated. They built a new one with spray foam insulation about 4 inches thick. The plumber was piping in the cooling units and started the foam on fire with his torch. They hadn�t yet sprayed on the outer coating on the foam. The foam burned so hot it set the coolers on both sides of it on fire, and the whole place burned to the ground, about 6 buildings! Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: scott Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 7:25 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation Yes painting the foam is almost mandatory for fire protection. The foam itself depending on formulation can catch fire fairly easily. Once a structure lined with foam catches on fire and reaches a certain temp, it will reach the flash point of the foam very quickly and almost all the foam with burst into flame instantly and heat the interior of the structure to multiple thousand degree temps in very very little time. The foam acts both as fuel and insulation to trap all heat and reflect it back into the interior. Do a search on fires in spray foam interiors, it is scary stuff. Painting with a fire retardant paint such as acrylic or even a specialty paint keeps the foam from flashing in to widespread fire. even if you get a bit to burn in a ding in the paint it won't spread fast as it won't spread over the surface of the foam until the paint is consumed. this slows it down drastically. There are fire retardant grades of foam and I would use one of those.. Ideally I would use one of the intumescent? fire retardant paints that will stop 2000 degrees direct flame contact for up to 20 minutes. You can just about be guaranteed your boat won't burn with that stuff. Scott --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: emember if there was a mildew-cide in the paint or > not but there has never been any mold. I was told that it adds a > little fire protection as well but this is probably wishful thinking. Paul > > On 15/11/2012 2:30 a.m., richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29450|29450|2012-11-18 12:22:02|badpirate36|furing strips- paint?|I just finnished epoxy coating my interior, I am now going to install my furing strips, should I paint them first? the interior facing wood strips will all be painted along with the foam later. But should I paint the hull facing side of the furing strips aswell? I haven't found any mention of doing this, nor have I seen any painted in the photo section. Thanx Tom| 29451|29345|2012-11-18 12:47:39|badpirate36|Re: Thermal insulation industrial epoxy|This discusion has come at a very good time for me. I have integral water and diesel tanks built into the (single) keel with a small bilge between the two and another one behind the diesel tank under the engine Although, I had planned to leave the two small bilges free of foam, I had planned to foam the the tank tops. Foaming the underside of the floor boards instead of the tank tops sounds like a better way. but before I commit has anybody foamed their tank tops and had no problems? Thanx Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Carpet on the floor reduces bilge condensation by 80% and heat loss by 35%. I have insulated the underside of my floor boards, with half inch foam, for an even greater effect > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I lived a few years on my boat in wintertime in Vancouver. One winter is > > was record cold temperatures and stayed below -10 C for several > > weeks...... I have 1 1/2 inch spray foam on hull and 1 inch on deck with > > the bilge having no foam. The portholes would sweat in winter time but > > there was no sweating anywhere else. The bilge or floors had no > > condensation. I believe this might be because under the waterline it > > would never get as cold as on deck because under the waterline it stays > > above freezing temperature. > > > > I have no idea if it is closed cell but it is the standard commercially > > applied spray foam. If immersed, it will eventually absorb water but on > > the hull and deck it stays dry and is great insulation. After more than > > 20 years, the foam has stayed attached to the epoxy painted hull with > > absolutely no problems. I would definitely go again with spray foam on a > > metal hull. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > On 14/11/2012 3:21 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > That what puzzles me... Metal hull should be insulated by foam, but it > > > is need to leave bilge area, tanks' tops free from foam insulation. I > > > suspect engine mounts, etc as well. And that where water condensate > > > will be... > > > > > > It should be some way to do thermal insulation in these areas... I > > > tried to find Thermal Insulation Epoxy, but did not get much. I only > > > found one product so far on Internet for industrial use - "Nansulate" > > > > > > http://www.nansulate.com/nansulate_industrial_casestudies.htm# > > > > > > Is there any others? > > > > > > P.S. Hopefully floor will give some thermal insulation as well > > > (plywood, wood, SS or steel on thermal insulators). > > > > > > Brent recommends to trim the foam and saturate trimmed foam with > > > paint. It should prevent the foam from absorbing water through the paint. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I remember working on a fibreglass boat, which had hit the rocks, > > > and had to be left a month to let the water drain out of what was > > > labeled as closed cell foam. > > > > Fishboats here have closed cell foam sprayed into their holds, right > > > down to the bilge, which makes it a wick, which wicks up the water til > > > it rots the bottom out. The only way to let water out is to leave the > > > lowest point foam free so it can drain. No foam can resist water > > > indefinitely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 29452|29345|2012-11-18 15:43:23|Ted|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|The company that foamed our boat, (in the UK) used polyurethane spray foam that complied with 'BS476 part 7 class one' fire regulations. The company supplied a certificate of compliance after the job. I tested it using a propane/butane blow torch with a 1925 deg celsius flame. The foam burnt when the flame was on it but went out when the flame was removed. To trim the set foam we used a carpenters crosscut saw with a plastic pipe tee handle bolted on using a coach bolt through the hole in the saw end. For finer detail we used a serrated bread knife, a low speed electric sander fitted with a cup wire brush, and for very awkward places a Dremel tool fitted with a flat wire brush or a tiny sanding drum. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > If You'll get the spray-man coming to Your construction site with his stuff, You could ask him to bring a formulation of foam that inhibits fire. > > There's a lot of differently formulated foams on the market, some of them even self-extinguishing when set in flames by mere heat of an engine/exhaust nearby (won't work with leakages of combsutibles, though.) > > But: The adding of ONE primary characteristic like fire-inhibition may change some or the lot of the other essential qualities particularly. > | 29453|29345|2012-11-18 17:41:51|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|This sounds like the kind of thing I'd have done. I'm just south of Bristol, is the company who did your foam anywhere near me? If not, at least I have an idea of what foam to specify from another company. ________________________________ From: Ted To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 18 November 2012, 20:43 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation The company that foamed our boat, (in the UK) used polyurethane spray foam that complied with 'BS476 part 7 class one' fire regulations. The company supplied a certificate of compliance after the job. I tested it using a propane/butane blow torch with a 1925 deg celsius flame.  The foam burnt when the flame was on it but went out when the flame was removed.  To trim the set foam we used a carpenters crosscut saw with a plastic pipe tee handle bolted on using a coach bolt through the hole in the saw end.  For finer detail we used a serrated bread knife, a low speed electric sander fitted with a cup wire brush, and for very awkward places a Dremel tool fitted with a flat wire brush or a tiny sanding drum. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > If You'll get the spray-man coming to Your construction site with his stuff, You could ask him to bring a formulation of foam that inhibits fire. > > There's a lot of differently formulated foams on the market, some of them even self-extinguishing when set in flames by mere heat of an engine/exhaust nearby (won't work with leakages of combsutibles, though.) > > But: The adding of ONE primary characteristic like fire-inhibition may change some or the lot of the other essential qualities particularly. > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29454|29446|2012-11-18 21:03:12|James Pronk|Re: Plywood decks|Was there a Wylo, not to long ago, that needed to replace its wooden deck after hitting a whale? I beleive I read that somewere, I think it was on the yahoo wylo group page. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29455|29446|2012-11-19 05:47:47|southcoveemail|Whale|If it is the same boat we are talking about, no the deck did not need replacement but some repairs and the whale hit the boat and not the reverse. Cheers Thierry --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Was there a Wylo, not to long ago, that needed to replace its wooden deck after hitting a whale? I beleive I read that somewere, I think it was on the yahoo wylo group page. > James > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29456|1509|2012-11-19 06:27:12|southcoveemail|Sailing engineless|> How is it to sail with no engine? > Martin I am not exactly sure what you would like to know but I find it very rewarding. You are limited to what you can do but the same applies when you have an engine. You don't need the room for the engine,the fuel and the parts, you never wait for engine parts, you have no engine break-downs. When I built the boat we got another kid and we needed a bit more room in the boat and I had less time to finish the boat so we went without. After starting I found out that I did not need or want one. Read the Pardeys or Peer Tangvald. Read Henry de Montfreid (Hashish: A Smuggler's Tale and Secrets of the Red Sea, a book about gun running.) They and many more sailed engineless. Ask if you have more specific questions. I would be please to hear of more people intending to sail. Cheers Thierry| 29457|1509|2012-11-19 08:58:08|martin demers|Re: Sailing engineless|Well, I am interested in the less trouble and more place inside the boat idea but my concerns are with; getting in and out of your slip, going against the current(I am in the Montreal area on the St-Lawrence river), getting away of a storm and a long period of time with no wind. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: thierry.msika@... Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:27:09 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Sailing engineless > How is it to sail with no engine? > Martin I am not exactly sure what you would like to know but I find it very rewarding. You are limited to what you can do but the same applies when you have an engine. You don't need the room for the engine,the fuel and the parts, you never wait for engine parts, you have no engine break-downs. When I built the boat we got another kid and we needed a bit more room in the boat and I had less time to finish the boat so we went without. After starting I found out that I did not need or want one. Read the Pardeys or Peer Tangvald. Read Henry de Montfreid (Hashish: A Smuggler's Tale and Secrets of the Red Sea, a book about gun running.) They and many more sailed engineless. Ask if you have more specific questions. I would be please to hear of more people intending to sail. Cheers Thierry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29458|26895|2012-11-19 10:27:57|Tom Mann|Re: ALU BS36|On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 2:43 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > I find that an inch to an inch and a quarter per foot of rise ,for cabin > side and wheelhouse tumble home, is about right. > > > I checked and I have it at 15% , hair over 3" per foot, probably go about half that. I checked Gerr's book on the scantlings and from what he has figured I would need 3/16" x 2-3/4" stainless flange , 5/16" stainless bolts on 4-1/2" centers . I was figuring around 1/8" 5052 for the cabin double checked and Gerr has .135" close enough > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29459|29444|2012-11-19 10:57:40|Tom Mann|Re: Tacking centerline|Push up on the V from underside will close up the small gaps On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 6:47 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > I found that making short tacks (1/4" with 1" space between centers or > 1/2" with 2" space) works very well for centerline tacking. Sometimes I > could not close small gap (1/16-1/32") with winch/comealong and short tacks > do the job - I tack weld with 3/32" E6013 @100A AC. > > Another benefit of short tack welds if tack weld cracks/brakes (because of > angle change between halves) it is easy to fix/grind it and make new tack > next to it. It is easy to do final weld over good tack welds and remelt > remaining metal with final weld with bigger electrode (1/8" or 5/32") and > high current (about 180A AC for E7014 or E6013). > > It is easier vertically align halves' edges as well. > > P.S. It is need to follow Brent's recommendations for welding/tacking for > some length from joint point. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29460|29460|2012-11-19 14:18:00|kurlidog|Thought for the Day|-- Well mystery masked man was smart, He got himself a Tonto, 'Cause Tonto did the dirty work for free. But Tonto he was smarter; One day he said, "Kemosabe: Kiss my ass, I bought a boat, I'm going out to sea." -Lyle Lovett, "If I Had a Boat" -- Off the Detroit Diesel forum, never know what you will find when you let the wind take you !!| 29461|29444|2012-11-19 14:40:59|wild_explorer|Re: Tacking centerline|Thanks Tom! Couples of days ago I have noticed such comment watching Alex's video again. Unfortunately, I had no access to centerline at that point - centerline's edges were resting on the ground. Even now, I have very small distance/clearance from the ground around midships - there is no way to put car-jack under the hull's centerline at this point. I would use car-jack from underside (with small angle on top of it), IF I need to close some small gaps (in case of broken welds and spreaded edges). Angle will help to push centerline together. It will work only if I can fit car-jack under centerline in place which needs fixing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Push up on the V from underside will close up the small gaps > > On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 6:47 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > I found that making short tacks (1/4" with 1" space between centers or > > 1/2" with 2" space) works very well for centerline tacking. Sometimes I > > could not close small gap (1/16-1/32") with winch/comealong and short tacks > > do the job - I tack weld with 3/32" E6013 @100A AC. > > > > Another benefit of short tack welds if tack weld cracks/brakes (because of > > angle change between halves) it is easy to fix/grind it and make new tack > > next to it. It is easy to do final weld over good tack welds and remelt > > remaining metal with final weld with bigger electrode (1/8" or 5/32") and > > high current (about 180A AC for E7014 or E6013). > > > > It is easier vertically align halves' edges as well. > > > > P.S. It is need to follow Brent's recommendations for welding/tacking for > > some length from joint point. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29462|29345|2012-11-19 14:58:10|brentswain38|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|It's the same as far as I know. Getting it smooth is an art, some are good at it, some are a disaster. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > Is the spray foam recommended for insulating boat hulls the same as the spray foam used to insulate buildings? If so, can a person who is a competent building sprayer do a good job spraying a hull, or are there different skills needed? > > John > | 29463|29345|2012-11-19 15:03:12|brentswain38|Re: Thermal insulation industrial epoxy|Kinda sad, when you consider how much was spent on the boat, and how little extra it would have cost to use wheelabraded steel, with a proper buildup of epoxy inside. Such disasters are the rule, rather than the exception with Foukes and Fehr boats.They start with only ten gauge steel for everything, including the keel and keel bottom , making the rusting thru even quicker. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I saw a Foulkes in a boat yard in Thailand....it was covered in pin > holes, sitting for sale and in my mind a total write-off. I am not sure > if it ever sold or not. The tsunami was the next year so maybe it > ended up an insurance job. > > Paul > > On 18/11/2012 11:37 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Many of the commercially built hulls here in BC ( Foulkes, Fehr) have > > no epoxy inside under the foam, and thus corrode out in a relatively > > short time, from the inside. Spray foam does not protect the steel. > | 29464|29450|2012-11-19 15:14:23|brentswain38|Re: furing strips- paint?|I've never bothered painting furring strips and never felt the need to. Wood likes to breath , paint may lock in moisture, and encourage rot. An Aussie I knew decades ago used to work on wooden fishboats. He said if a bulkhead was painted both sides, he could usually throw a screwdriver right thru it, if it was only painted on one side, it was usually rot free. Paint is not a preservative. I never paint the insides of my lockers , but leave then bare wood. No rot in 28 years, over most of it.Only a tiny area near a leaky water tank. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > I just finnished epoxy coating my interior, I am now going to install my furing strips, should I paint them first? the interior facing wood strips will all be painted along with the foam later. But should I paint the hull facing side of the furing strips aswell? I haven't found any mention of doing this, nor have I seen any painted in the photo section. > Thanx > Tom > | 29465|1509|2012-11-19 15:27:29|brentswain38|Re: Sailing engineless|I sailed my last boat engineless for three years, including a trip to Tahiti and back to BC. While it was frustrating at times, it was a huge learning experience, including learning that getting pissed off doesn't bring the wind any sooner, so relax and take in the lesson in relaxation. before then I was always worried about what I would do if the engine quit. After that it was no worry, just a minor inconvenience. I had some big tides and strong tidal currents to deal with in BC. With tides, you simply wait for the right tide and ride it. A 12 pound danforth kedge and a huge amount of line for it, in the foredeck well, got lots of use. I did a lot of sculling with the rudder. I was glad when I finally got an engine, but the time spent without one was extremely valuable experience. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "southcoveemail" wrote: > > > > How is it to sail with no engine? > > Martin > > > > I am not exactly sure what you would like to know but I find it very rewarding. > > You are limited to what you can do but the same applies when you have an engine. > You don't need the room for the engine,the fuel and the parts, you never wait for engine parts, you have no engine break-downs. > > When I built the boat we got another kid and we needed a bit more room in the boat and I had less time to finish the boat so we went without. After starting I found out that I did not need or want one. > > Read the Pardeys or Peer Tangvald. > Read Henry de Montfreid (Hashish: A Smuggler's Tale and Secrets of the Red Sea, a book about gun running.) > They and many more sailed engineless. > > Ask if you have more specific questions. I would be please to hear of more people intending to sail. > > Cheers > > Thierry > | 29466|29450|2012-11-19 15:51:01|wild_explorer|Re: furing strips- paint?|How do you mount furring strips to metal tabs welded to the hull? If tabs need to be UNDER the foam and strips ABOVE the foam to breathe, it should be some "non-hydroscopic non-heat conductive" spacer between it. If strips are flash with foam, wood might absorb water and saturate the foam with it. I understand setup without insulation foam, but with a foam it becomes more complicated.... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've never bothered painting furring strips and never felt the need to. Wood likes to breath , paint may lock in moisture, and encourage rot. An Aussie I knew decades ago used to work on wooden fishboats. He said if a bulkhead was painted both sides, he could usually throw a screwdriver right thru it, if it was only painted on one side, it was usually rot free. Paint is not a preservative. > I never paint the insides of my lockers , but leave then bare wood. No rot in 28 years, over most of it.Only a tiny area near a leaky water tank. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > I just finnished epoxy coating my interior, I am now going to install my furing strips, should I paint them first? the interior facing wood strips will all be painted along with the foam later. But should I paint the hull facing side of the furing strips aswell? I haven't found any mention of doing this, nor have I seen any painted in the photo section. > > Thanx > > Tom > > > | 29467|29450|2012-11-19 16:35:53|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: furing strips- paint?|Fifty years ago there would have been just one simple wooden answer: raw teak. Today, painting or partly painting depends on what (other) sort of strips You use instead of extinct cultivars. Dark red wood like (the better sorts of) Meranti or Mahagoni/Okume I would not paint, but probably oil once or twice with an oil that builds no film, depending on what the foam does with this, to retard soaking with water in case there should happen to emerge some, while enabling a redry. White wood (pinus pinus, pinus sylvestris and relatives) I'd probably paint the sides in contact to painted steel two part PU including the endgrain, but let open the other sides to still enable it redry after a watering. For delicate places (under sinks, neighbouring watertanks, throughhulls and so on) where water is presumably an issue I would take the costs of real red wood mere than fussing around with paint. I tried lumberyard-impregnated sorts of white wood (fungus-prevention) but didn't like it, for in marine-use You get the problems seemingly even faster where these were sawn, some thing I wouldn't want to build in a layer of foam even far from the notorious filler neck. If You go ply (what I wouldn't): Do use any sort of boat-quality, red wood all layers - resorcine resin - no cavities, and if glueing needed: resorcine only; oil this all sides thoroughly (particularly the quoins) and keep care of none of the important parts persistantly watered like in a bilge sump: veneer, even red sorts, is prone to fungus particularly quicker than the same massive wood when constantly in reach of reasonable amounts of damp/dripping water (no matter what sort of "encapsulating", we had this already). Resorcine glues work with permanently built-in (and slightly evaporating) formaldehydes, what reduces the liability of the veneer to fungus then again a bit at least. Housing qualities aren't allowed to contain CH2O any longer at all (in Europe), so these are by far less suitable than even the simplest salvaged massive white wood for any sort of marine use, not to mention the cavities and the different unknown proveniences of veneer inside. Am 18.11.2012 um 18:22 schrieb badpirate36: > I just finnished epoxy coating my interior, I am now going to install my furing strips, should I paint them first? the interior facing wood strips will all be painted along with the foam later. But should I paint the hull facing side of the furing strips aswell? I haven't found any mention of doing this, nor have I seen any painted in the photo section. > Thanx > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29468|1509|2012-11-19 17:38:18|martin demers|Re: Insulation|Did you went checking if any condensation happenned on the inside of the hull or if the fiberglass batts got wet at some point. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: thierry.msika@... Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 14:59:02 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Insulation This is also to say how I insulated my 35' Wylo II. After painting the inside I bolted wood cleats to the frames where I needed them and installed the bulkheads. I then put 2" fiberglass batts between the frames and ran them down to the bottom chine which is below the waterline. I covered the whole insulating material with a 6 mils plastic vapor barrier. I lined the whole inside with 5/16" tongue and groove V grooved pine boards running vertically. The wood lining is painted with a white latex paint. I then built the remaining accommodation parts. The deck steel flange running around the aft and main decks and the steel foredeck are also insulated in the manner. In the forepeak I continued the insulation down to the forefoot. Also in the aft parts of the boat the insulation covers the bottom. I have no engine so the boat doesn't get bilge water through any bearing. The only water that gets its way down below is the occasional spray or rain. I neglected to insulate the centerboard case and I need to do it for my next trip. There is no condensation on the case while at anchor because the water inside the case doesn't move and gets warm with the boat. When we are sailing in cold water the condensation start dripping from the case. Cheers Thierry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29469|29450|2012-11-19 17:39:54|Robert Jones|Re: furing strips- paint?|In spraying buildings, you would spray the furring strips, then, with a tool, similar to a wire cheesecutter, slice the foam down to the strip on the face side where walls will attach! This leaves the wood breathable to the inside so that any moisture that is in the wood is dispersed into the inside wall, rather than, the outside metal(as in barn construstion, or coastal steel frame buildings! if you wanted that extra fire/moisture barrier, you could tape the furring strips, once the excess foam was sliced away, and paint the rest of the foam, leaving the furring strips to breath. If the furring strips are sealed, they should probably be totally sealed, bottom, tops and sides, by painting, after flange holes are drilled, but before bolting, and before foaming. If the moisture is good when sealed, it will stay that way. Theroretically, at least. Until and unless the seal is breached anywhere and moisture gets in, rises, and can not escape. You can use treated furring, but be careful, as some treatments now, to be environmentally "friendly", are using a salt based preservative that corrodes nails, bolts and any other metal that it touches. This treatment may not be used in your area, but is almost everywhere on the Gulf Coast, USA.   rj --- On Mon, 11/19/12, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: From: Giuseppe Bergman Subject: Re: [origamiboats] furing strips- paint? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, November 19, 2012, 2:35 PM Fifty years ago there would have been just one simple wooden answer: raw teak. Today, painting or partly painting depends on what (other) sort of strips You use instead of extinct cultivars. Dark red wood like (the better sorts of) Meranti or Mahagoni/Okume I would not paint, but probably oil once or twice with an oil that builds no film, depending on what the foam does with this, to retard soaking with water in case there should happen to emerge some, while enabling a redry. White wood (pinus pinus, pinus sylvestris and relatives) I'd probably paint the sides in contact to painted steel two part PU including the endgrain, but let open the other sides to still enable it redry after a watering. For delicate places (under sinks, neighbouring watertanks, throughhulls and so on) where water is presumably an issue I would take the costs of real red wood mere than fussing around with paint. I tried lumberyard-impregnated sorts of white wood (fungus-prevention) but didn't like it, for in marine-use You get the problems seemingly even faster where these were sawn, some thing I wouldn't want to build in a layer of foam even far from the notorious filler neck. If You go ply (what I wouldn't): Do use any sort of boat-quality, red wood all layers - resorcine resin - no cavities, and if glueing needed: resorcine only; oil this all sides thoroughly (particularly the quoins) and keep care of none of the important parts persistantly watered like in a bilge sump: veneer, even red sorts, is prone to fungus particularly quicker than the same massive wood when constantly in reach of reasonable amounts of damp/dripping water (no matter what sort of "encapsulating", we had this already). Resorcine glues work with permanently built-in (and slightly evaporating) formaldehydes, what reduces the liability of the veneer to fungus then again a bit at least. Housing qualities aren't allowed to contain CH2O any longer at all (in Europe), so these are by far less suitable than even the simplest salvaged massive white wood for any sort of marine use, not to mention the cavities and the different unknown proveniences of veneer inside. Am 18.11.2012 um 18:22 schrieb badpirate36: > I just finnished epoxy coating my interior, I am now going to install my furing strips, should I paint them first? the interior facing wood strips will all be painted along with the foam later. But should I paint the hull facing side of the furing strips aswell? I haven't found any mention of doing this, nor have I seen any painted in the photo section. > Thanx > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29470|1509|2012-11-19 18:09:47|southcoveemail|Re: Sailing engineless|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Well, I am interested in the less trouble and more place inside the boat idea but my concerns are with; getting in and out of your slip, going against the current(I am in the Montreal area on the St-Lawrence river), getting away of a storm and a long period of time with no wind. You mean slip as in marina slip? I don't know if this is doable without an engine. I have been in a couple of marinas where I had to e.g. Ponta Delgada and Santa Maria don't allow you to anchor anymore. It was not easy to manoeuver the boat between the fingers. Sometimes the wind dies at night and then you can move your boat easily with your sweep. We sailed up 25 miles up the Guadiana River but there the current is usually tidal or sculled down the Thames for 35 miles mast down with the current. We have never been in a storm and we would heave to if we were caught in one. If there is no wind we wait, it usually doesn't last very long. The longest wait was in Trinidad to cover the last 5 miles getting to Chaguaramas, it took the rest of the day, but this is near the equator. I suppose if you have to be back to work on Monday it's better to have an engine, at least an outboard. Cheers Thierry| 29471|29444|2012-11-19 21:09:14|Tom Mann|Re: Tacking centerline|In that case put the jack where it will fit depending on which end your working on and jack it up an inch or two then wedge under the V using pipe, square tube or whatever you have inline where the seam needs to go back together then ease down the jack On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 11:40 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > Thanks Tom! Couples of days ago I have noticed such comment watching > Alex's video again. Unfortunately, I had no access to centerline at that > point - centerline's edges were resting on the ground. Even now, I have > very small distance/clearance from the ground around midships - there is no > way to put car-jack under the hull's centerline at this point. > > I would use car-jack from underside (with small angle on top of it), IF I > need to close some small gaps (in case of broken welds and spreaded edges). > Angle will help to push centerline together. It will work only if I can fit > car-jack under centerline in place which needs fixing. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > Push up on the V from underside will close up the small gaps > > > > On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 6:47 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > I found that making short tacks (1/4" with 1" space between centers or > > > 1/2" with 2" space) works very well for centerline tacking. Sometimes I > > > could not close small gap (1/16-1/32") with winch/comealong and short > tacks > > > do the job - I tack weld with 3/32" E6013 @100A AC. > > > > > > Another benefit of short tack welds if tack weld cracks/brakes > (because of > > > angle change between halves) it is easy to fix/grind it and make new > tack > > > next to it. It is easy to do final weld over good tack welds and remelt > > > remaining metal with final weld with bigger electrode (1/8" or 5/32") > and > > > high current (about 180A AC for E7014 or E6013). > > > > > > It is easier vertically align halves' edges as well. > > > > > > P.S. It is need to follow Brent's recommendations for welding/tacking > for > > > some length from joint point. > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29472|1509|2012-11-20 09:24:35|scott|Re: Insulation|I have thought about this a lot and have wondered if you used some 1/4 inch ply and bolted or screwed it to your furring strips on section of the hull. Lined the back side of it with polyethylene plastic and then poured two part foam in small layers. Say every two feet up the side of the hull to minimize expansion forces. This would give absolutely perfectly surfaced sections of foam insulation between every furring strip with a smooth surface once you pulled the plastic sheet off the face of it, once it cured. Very little waste involved in this method though it would seem to me to possibly be more labor intensive up front. Way less clean up and trimming on the backside though. would love to try it :) but I don't have that kind of boat :) With our current boat though it is very dry in general There is always the potential for leaks at some point in the hull deck joint and if that dripped down onto foam, I think it would end up badly. Rather removable insulation. A steel boat with no holes in the deck is potentially much drier :) just a thought.. Scott| 29473|1509|2012-11-20 14:40:37|hollowayjoshua|Re: Sailing engineless|Hi Martin, In our past life we did the engineless thing. It was before kids... My wife wrote about it, as we sailed for three years from Hawaii to Australia at: www.adventuresoftinybubbles.com I would do it again if we did not have wee ones. We avoided marinas, but when we had to enter one we managed. You get very creative and good under sail. You also get handy with oars, anchor, and dink -- in our case an inflatable kayak. Best, Josh| 29474|29450|2012-11-20 16:29:47|brentswain38|Re: furing strips- paint?|I have had no problem with wood flush with the foam. The foam is not entirely watertight, . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > How do you mount furring strips to metal tabs welded to the hull? If tabs need to be UNDER the foam and strips ABOVE the foam to breathe, it should be some "non-hydroscopic non-heat conductive" spacer between it. > > If strips are flash with foam, wood might absorb water and saturate the foam with it. > > I understand setup without insulation foam, but with a foam it becomes more complicated.... > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I've never bothered painting furring strips and never felt the need to. Wood likes to breath , paint may lock in moisture, and encourage rot. An Aussie I knew decades ago used to work on wooden fishboats. He said if a bulkhead was painted both sides, he could usually throw a screwdriver right thru it, if it was only painted on one side, it was usually rot free. Paint is not a preservative. > > I never paint the insides of my lockers , but leave then bare wood. No rot in 28 years, over most of it.Only a tiny area near a leaky water tank. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > I just finnished epoxy coating my interior, I am now going to install my furing strips, should I paint them first? the interior facing wood strips will all be painted along with the foam later. But should I paint the hull facing side of the furing strips aswell? I haven't found any mention of doing this, nor have I seen any painted in the photo section. > > > Thanx > > > Tom > > > > > > | 29475|29450|2012-11-20 16:37:17|brentswain38|Re: furing strips- paint?|This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking which turns a one year, affordable project into a ten or twenty year, horrendously expensive project Firring strips don't really matter that much. I have used whatever scrap lumber I have found laying around including shipping pallet parts, in the last 36 years ,and I have never had a problem with any of them. Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things . Just build the friggin boat! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > Fifty years ago there would have been just one simple wooden answer: raw teak. > > Today, painting or partly painting depends on what (other) sort of strips You use instead of extinct cultivars. > > Dark red wood like (the better sorts of) Meranti or Mahagoni/Okume I would not paint, but probably oil once or twice with an oil that builds no film, depending on what the foam does with this, to retard soaking with water in case there should happen to emerge some, while enabling a redry. > > White wood (pinus pinus, pinus sylvestris and relatives) I'd probably paint the sides in contact to painted steel two part PU including the endgrain, but let open the other sides to still enable it redry after a watering. > > For delicate places (under sinks, neighbouring watertanks, throughhulls and so on) where water is presumably an issue I would take the costs of real red wood mere than fussing around with paint. > > I tried lumberyard-impregnated sorts of white wood (fungus-prevention) but didn't like it, for in marine-use You get the problems seemingly even faster where these were sawn, some thing I wouldn't want to build in a layer of foam even far from the notorious filler neck. > > If You go ply (what I wouldn't): Do use any sort of boat-quality, red wood all layers - resorcine resin - no cavities, and if glueing needed: resorcine only; > oil this all sides thoroughly (particularly the quoins) and keep care of none of the important parts persistantly watered like in a bilge sump: > veneer, even red sorts, is prone to fungus particularly quicker than the same massive wood when constantly in reach of reasonable amounts of damp/dripping water (no matter what sort of "encapsulating", we had this already). > Resorcine glues work with permanently built-in (and slightly evaporating) formaldehydes, what reduces the liability of the veneer to fungus then again a bit at least. > Housing qualities aren't allowed to contain CH2O any longer at all (in Europe), so these are by far less suitable than even the simplest salvaged massive white wood for any sort of marine use, not to mention the cavities and the different unknown proveniences of veneer inside. > > > > > > > > > Am 18.11.2012 um 18:22 schrieb badpirate36: > > > I just finnished epoxy coating my interior, I am now going to install my furing strips, should I paint them first? the interior facing wood strips will all be painted along with the foam later. But should I paint the hull facing side of the furing strips aswell? I haven't found any mention of doing this, nor have I seen any painted in the photo section. > > Thanx > > Tom > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29476|1509|2012-11-20 16:39:59|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|Tried that, an abysmal failure. All vapour barriers fail eventually and fibreglass batts quickly get soaking wet and soggy. Stick to sprayfoam. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Did you went checking if any condensation happenned on the inside of the hull or if the fiberglass batts got wet at some point. > Martin. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: thierry.msika@... > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 14:59:02 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Insulation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is also to say how I insulated my 35' Wylo II. > > > > After painting the inside I bolted wood cleats to the frames where I needed them and installed the bulkheads. > > I then put 2" fiberglass batts between the frames and ran them down to the bottom chine which is below the waterline. > > I covered the whole insulating material with a 6 mils plastic vapor barrier. > > I lined the whole inside with 5/16" tongue and groove V grooved pine boards running vertically. > > The wood lining is painted with a white latex paint. > > I then built the remaining accommodation parts. > > The deck steel flange running around the aft and main decks and the steel foredeck are also insulated in the manner. > > In the forepeak I continued the insulation down to the forefoot. > > Also in the aft parts of the boat the insulation covers the bottom. > > I have no engine so the boat doesn't get bilge water through any bearing. > > The only water that gets its way down below is the occasional spray or rain. > > I neglected to insulate the centerboard case and I need to do it for my next trip. > > There is no condensation on the case while at anchor because the water inside the case doesn't move and gets warm with the boat. > > When we are sailing in cold water the condensation start dripping from the case. > > > > Cheers > > > > Thierry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29477|1509|2012-11-20 16:43:28|brentswain38|Re: Sailing engineless|I have sailed into many docks without an engine. In Sausalito it was great to see people sailing 60 footers into marinas without using the engine. I've seen similar sailing in Auckland NZ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "southcoveemail" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > Well, I am interested in the less trouble and more place inside the boat idea but my concerns are with; getting in and out of your slip, going against the current(I am in the Montreal area on the St-Lawrence river), getting away of a storm and a long period of time with no wind. > > > You mean slip as in marina slip? I don't know if this is doable without an engine. I have been in a couple of marinas where I had to e.g. Ponta Delgada and Santa Maria don't allow you to anchor anymore. It was not easy to manoeuver the boat between the fingers. Sometimes the wind dies at night and then you can move your boat easily with your sweep. > We sailed up 25 miles up the Guadiana River but there the current is usually tidal or sculled down the Thames for 35 miles mast down with the current. > We have never been in a storm and we would heave to if we were caught in one. > If there is no wind we wait, it usually doesn't last very long. The longest wait was in Trinidad to cover the last 5 miles getting to Chaguaramas, it took the rest of the day, but this is near the equator. > I suppose if you have to be back to work on Monday it's better to have an engine, at least an outboard. > > Cheers > > Thierry > | 29478|29478|2012-11-20 16:50:12|Mike|Furling drum diameter??|Ive got my extrusion all welded up now I'm starting on the furling drum. How do I figure out my furling drum diameter. I cut one out at 15" and it looks huge my genoa foot is 25 ft. And my extrusion is made out of a piece of 1/2" welded to a piece of 1.5" schedule 40. I'm not sure how many revolutions it will take to roll it up. Any suggestions??? Thanks Michael Sent from my iPhone| 29479|1509|2012-11-20 19:55:02|Carl Volkwein|Re: Sailing engineless|All I'd worry about is how to keep the baterry charged. ________________________________ From: martin demers To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:58 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sailing engineless Well, I am interested in the less trouble and more place inside the boat idea but my concerns are with; getting in and out of your slip, going against the current(I am in the Montreal area on the St-Lawrence river), getting away of a storm and a long period of time with no wind. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: thierry.msika@... Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:27:09 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Sailing engineless                         > How is it to sail with no engine? > Martin I am not exactly sure what you would like to know but I find it very rewarding. You are limited to what you can do but the same applies when you have an engine. You don't need the room for the engine,the fuel and the parts, you never wait for engine parts, you have no engine break-downs. When I built the boat we got another kid and we needed a bit more room in the boat and I had less time to finish the boat so we went without. After starting I found out that I did not need or want one. Read the Pardeys or Peer Tangvald. Read Henry de Montfreid (Hashish: A Smuggler's Tale and Secrets of the Red Sea, a book about gun running.) They and many more sailed engineless. Ask if you have more specific questions. I would be please to hear of more people intending to sail. Cheers Thierry                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29480|1509|2012-11-20 21:24:42|martin demers|Re: Sailing engineless|solar panels To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: carlvolkwein@... Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 16:55:00 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sailing engineless All I'd worry about is how to keep the baterry charged. ________________________________ From: martin demers To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:58 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sailing engineless Well, I am interested in the less trouble and more place inside the boat idea but my concerns are with; getting in and out of your slip, going against the current(I am in the Montreal area on the St-Lawrence river), getting away of a storm and a long period of time with no wind. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: thierry.msika@... Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:27:09 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Sailing engineless > How is it to sail with no engine? > Martin I am not exactly sure what you would like to know but I find it very rewarding. You are limited to what you can do but the same applies when you have an engine. You don't need the room for the engine,the fuel and the parts, you never wait for engine parts, you have no engine break-downs. When I built the boat we got another kid and we needed a bit more room in the boat and I had less time to finish the boat so we went without. After starting I found out that I did not need or want one. Read the Pardeys or Peer Tangvald. Read Henry de Montfreid (Hashish: A Smuggler's Tale and Secrets of the Red Sea, a book about gun running.) They and many more sailed engineless. Ask if you have more specific questions. I would be please to hear of more people intending to sail. Cheers Thierry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29481|1509|2012-11-20 22:02:02|Matt Malone|Re: Sailing engineless|And a windmill. On my 23 footer, I have a gas outboard, 4hp, and an electric trolling motor. The electric is mounted as a side thruster at the front, but, in the case the outboard fails, it is a backup outboard. If the wind is right, and the dock is well placed, I have sailed to the slip many times, without starting the gas engine. Many times though, I have found the electric side thruster useful at the last second after the last turn into the slip is made. I think I will keep both of them with me. A 4hp outboard contains the gas tank, about 1 liter. I am not going to pretend it will take a boat far, or at all against a wind or current. I would most appreciate it in a finger-dock situation, with shifting zephyrs of wind. It would make me feel more confident about sailing by all those million dollar yachts without scratching them and starting inconvenient legal problems in a foreign country. In light shifty winds, it keeps forward flow over the rudder and maintains control. Less than a liter of gas is not a lot to spend to get in or out of a marina. An outboard takes up little room clamped to the stern. Several complete changes of prop, fuel filter and fuel lines and all needed tools can be kept in a shoe-box -- I have that shoe-box. I think it is a good compromise between going engineless or having the issues of an internal engine. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 21:24:41 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sailing engineless > > solar panels > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: carlvolkwein@... > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 16:55:00 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sailing engineless > > > All I'd worry about is how to keep the baterry charged. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: martin demers > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:58 AM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sailing engineless > > > > > > Well, I am interested in the less trouble and more place inside the boat idea but my concerns are with; getting in and out of your slip, going against the current(I am in the Montreal area on the St-Lawrence river), getting away of a storm and a long period of time with no wind. > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: thierry.msika@... > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:27:09 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Sailing engineless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it to sail with no engine? > > > > > Martin > > > > I am not exactly sure what you would like to know but I find it very rewarding. > > > > You are limited to what you can do but the same applies when you have an engine. > > > > You don't need the room for the engine,the fuel and the parts, you never wait for engine parts, you have no engine break-downs. > > > > When I built the boat we got another kid and we needed a bit more room in the boat and I had less time to finish the boat so we went without. After starting I found out that I did not need or want one. > > > > Read the Pardeys or Peer Tangvald. > > > > Read Henry de Montfreid (Hashish: A Smuggler's Tale and Secrets of the Red Sea, a book about gun running.) > > > > They and many more sailed engineless. > > > > Ask if you have more specific questions. I would be please to hear of more people intending to sail. > > > > Cheers > > > > Thierry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29482|1509|2012-11-20 23:05:36|Paul Wilson|Re: Sailing engineless|Some things to consider. In my experience those without an engine miss out on many of the best places and are severely restricted in where they can go. Many marinas forbid going in and out under sail. If you are unlucky enough to put a scratch on another boat, forget about insurance.....you will be up shit creek without a motor :). My friend had a hole punched through the side of his 32 footer by a small engine-less yacht who couldn't maneuver in a strong current. Lucky for him, the insurance paid and the hole was above the waterline. In restricted maneuvering areas like shipping lanes in and out of a port, you must give way, even under sail. If you are crawling along with little wind, this can be very difficult. Times are changing. Port authorities in some areas love to give out fines and may insist on towing you and possibly charging you if you cause problems. I am trying to remember, but isn't it illegal to go under the Lion's Gate Bridge in Vancouver without a motor? I was going in to reef entrance in Fiji once when my motor suddenly quit. It took me about 15 minutes to get it going again. There was no wind at all but a strong current and I was in a remote area. If I had not got the engine going, I would have probably ended up on the reef. You can argue that I wouldn't have placed myself in that situation without an engine, but that is my point. I wouldn't have seen many of the best places in Fiji since I wouldn't have felt comfortable in the coral reefs without an engine and would have never left the major ports. Cheers, Paul| 29483|1509|2012-11-21 10:38:58|martin demers|Re: Sailing engineless|Josh, You did your travels in that small 25ft boat? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mammoth_lakes@... Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 19:40:36 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless Hi Martin, In our past life we did the engineless thing. It was before kids... My wife wrote about it, as we sailed for three years from Hawaii to Australia at: www.adventuresoftinybubbles.com I would do it again if we did not have wee ones. We avoided marinas, but when we had to enter one we managed. You get very creative and good under sail. You also get handy with oars, anchor, and dink -- in our case an inflatable kayak. Best, Josh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29484|1509|2012-11-21 11:24:42|Darren Bos|Re: Sailing engineless|Paul, your memory is right. Except, the Port of Vancouver regulations state "no sailing" between Lions Gate and Second Narrows Bridge, which is the bulk of the Port of Vancouver. So I suppose you could scull your way through. But, as you probably remember, the oil tankers, cargo ships, passenger ferries and hordes of power boats on the weekend, not to mention the tidal currents, and lifting train bridge would definitely make it interesting without an engine. I'm certainly glad to have an motor when we go through. Darren At 08:02 PM 20/11/2012, you wrote: >. I am >trying to remember, but isn't it illegal to go under the Lion's Gate >Bridge in Vancouver without a motor? > >I >Cheers, Paul | 29485|1509|2012-11-21 11:36:22|Matt Malone|Re: Sailing engineless|Wow Josh, that is a small boat, small in the interior/storage for a 24 footer given it is a double-ender. Shoal draft at 3' 4".... No standing headroom at all though. I would find that tough for more than a weekend. Brent's 26 is sufficiently compact with a transom to give more volume. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 10:38:56 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless > > > Josh, > You did your travels in that small 25ft boat? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mammoth_lakes@... > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 19:40:36 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Martin, > > In our past life we did the engineless thing. It was before kids... My wife wrote about it, as we sailed for three years from Hawaii to Australia at: www.adventuresoftinybubbles.com > > I would do it again if we did not have wee ones. We avoided marinas, but when we had to enter one we managed. You get very creative and good under sail. You also get handy with oars, anchor, and dink -- in our case an inflatable kayak. > > Best, > > Josh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29486|1509|2012-11-21 13:20:25|badpirate36|Re: Sailing engineless|There is no sailing under either bridge, although, sailing is permitted between the bridges from a line drawn between Centerm and Lonsdale street (just east of the seabus route) to a line drawn from Berry point to Terminal dock, Neptune terminal (1nm west of the Ironworkers bridge) No scuba diving, water skiing or personal water craft allowed. For a grand total of 1.5nm of sailing bliss /.o) --- In origa miboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Paul, your memory is right. Except, the Port of Vancouver > regulations state "no sailing" between Lions Gate and Second Narrows > Bridge, which is the bulk of the Port of Vancouver. So I suppose you > could scull your way through. But, as you probably remember, the oil > tankers, cargo ships, passenger ferries and hordes of power boats on > the weekend, not to mention the tidal currents, and lifting train > bridge would definitely make it interesting without an engine. I'm > certainly glad to have an motor when we go through. > > Darren > > At 08:02 PM 20/11/2012, you wrote: > >. I am > >trying to remember, but isn't it illegal to go under the Lion's Gate > >Bridge in Vancouver without a motor? > > > >I > >Cheers, Paul > | 29487|29487|2012-11-21 13:38:25|martin demers|FW: Cruising Lifestyle Newsletter #1|Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 12:36:58 -0500 From: bob@... To: mdemers2005@... Subject: Cruising Lifestyle Newsletter #1 Issue #1 www.cruisingoutpost.com November 21. 2012 This is Why We Cruise... May 9th, 2012. We were anchored in Salt Whistle Bay on Mayreau Island in the Grenadines, West Indies. We'd just sailed down from Bequia, on our way to The Tobago Cays. This is what the dream is all about. Guess what? It's not a dream. It's real. We can help you get there! Once More Into The Breach Well, it's been about 5 months since the demise of Latitudes & Attitudes, and it looks like we are going to get thru this okay. The very first issue of Cruising Outpost is about to hit the stands, and it should pretty much shake up the industry, and is sure to make a big "splash" on the docks. The first issue is 180 pages filled with cruising stories from all over the world. I think what surprised us the most was the immediate response from the old Lats&Atts readers, some of whom are now "on staff." People jumped in to help us get re-started and with their help we got thru the toughest part. The startup. This first issue is now off-the-press and being mailed to subscribers. It will be on-sale about Dec 4th. It will be at your local West Marine, and hundreds of other outlets. Meet The Staff Editor-at-Large, Sue Morgan - Redondo Beach, CA. We couldn't have done this without our 'steemed Editor Sue Morgan. She jumped right on-board as soon as Jody & I announced what we wanted to do. She and husband Mike have been trying to "cut the dock-lines" on their Cheoy Lee Yawl "Because" for over 30 years, and she will be our Editor-At-Large once they finish their refit and get underway. (I am not too worried, as they have been at it for over 30 years! (lol)). Along with Office Dog Pogey, they plan on heading out in a few months, and will be working from the boat as they go. Large Editor, Bob & Jody Bitchin - Berry Creek, Northern CA. Hey! That's us! I need a job too! Since we lost Lats&Atts I need a way to continue to poison peoples minds! So Jody & I are hard at work trying to re-create in a few months what it took 17 years to do before. I'm getting too old for this starting over crap, but, truth be told, it's kinda fun. Creating a whole new magazine, knowing the mistakes we made before. It's actually kinda fun! General Manager, Heidi Benson - Alameda, CA. Someone has to do all the hard stuff, so she got saddled with it. As a live-aboard for many years in Norhtern California with Aaron, Harley & Tiki she knows what it's all about, and she can do all that magic stuff with books and files and other things that I don't even want to know about. She makes the business end run and keeps an eye on that end of things. Advertising Goddess, Lisa O'Brien - San Juan Islands, WA. Lisa and Darren live aboard their boat and are raising the official staff "kid," Arriana, who is already learning how to steer the boat and dinghy. Lisa handles the tough part of the business, bringing in the ad dollars, while Darren handles the artistic end of the advertising by creating many of the ads you see in the mag. In his "spare time" he is also the Producer and Director and Cameraman for the video's. He created the Latitudes & Attitudes TV series. Web-Master, Head Guitarist, Steve Hall - Panama City, FL. Steve has been with Jody & I for more years than any of us want to talk about. We first met him when he was playing lead guitar with the Eric Stone Band, and when we found out his "day job" was as an IT guy, we hooked up with him. He lives aboard. And we can't mention Steve without mentioning our... "Staff Music Maker" Eric Stone - Florida Keys, with Health Editor Kim Hess. Eric has been a part of the family since we first met over 12 years ago when he was playing at the Chicago Boat Show. He gave me a pre-release of his first album, Songs for Sailors, and I loved it. Since then he has release another dozen albums, as well as writing my two favorite songs, "Legend of the Lost Soul" and the theme song for "Latitudes & Attitudes." We may have lost the magazine, but we still have the song! And it rocks!!! Head Art-Guru, Rich Marker - Tampa area, FL. For years Rich has been doing a cartoon for us in the old Lats&Atts, called "Close Hauled" and it was one of the favorites of our readers. When the Vigero hit the Mixmaster and L&A died he got ahold of us to see if he could help. He could, and he did! He designed our logo, our shirts and the cover of our first issue! Don't tell him we said this, but he is pretty friggin' good! Dave Dudgeon, BS Manager - Muskegon, MI. And no, it doesn't mean That! It means Boat Show Manager, and he has been handling the Boat Shows for us for over a decade, and we couldn't do the shows without him! Robin Stout, Life Aboard - Mazatlan, Mexico. Robin was the editor of Living Aboard until it was "absorbed" into Lats&Atts just before the demise. She now writes our "Life Aboard" section as she sails the Pacific Coast of Mexico, and beyond. She has been cruising for years and knows her subject well. Digital Guru, Ray Fosdick - Gulf area. Ray and his wife Amanda live aboard in the Gulf. They move about quite a bit, but he is a whiz when it comes to digital media. He is the designer of our Mobile Media and keeps us "on the air." Speaking of air, you may have seen him on The Morning Show recently. It seems he fell out of the air, when the private plane he was on crashed into the Gulf, and he interviewed the pilot with his iPad as they waited in the water 3 hours to be rescued! Al Saunders, President - Nor Cal. After living aboard Swansong (in the background) for 11 years in Hawaii Al & Swan sailed across the Pacific and helped me build a hide-away up in the Sierra's. When we needed someone to step up and help create a new entity, he was the man. A friend of more years than either of us will ever admit to, he rode with one of the major MC's in Hawaii for 30 years prior to taking off to enjoy the "free-lifestyle" of cruising. He is, as they say, "The Man!" Jeff & Marie Inshaw, AKA Ken & Barbie. Staff Slaves! - Florida and the Caribbean. The magazine would not be the same without Ken & Barbie! They have put the life into more of our events than anyone else. Florida, Washington, California, Texas, Chicago, Newport, Aukland, Bora-Bora, Tonga, Tobago Cays, you name it, they have been there with us to help bring our events to life. Tabitha "Bitchin" Lipkin - Hollywood, CA. Official Staff Young Person and our own personal videographer. She and Jody tied at Lats&Atts for the most covers! She is also the official Staff Granddaughter (nepotism be damned!). ....and hundreds more! We can't even start to tell you about the hundreds of people who have come forward to help this new entity get off the ground. Cruising Outpost is nothing but a collection of people who have one passion. The passion to enjoy their lives at sea. Some dream about it, some do it, but all have the love and the passion for the lifestyle. You don't have to own a boat to live the boating lifestyle (but, alas, it does help!). All you need is the state of mind. Cruising. A way of life. Don't dream your life... Live your dream! Product Spotlight - Spiroll Anti-Chafe ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ One of the biggest problems when cruising and anchoring is chafe. The folks at Spiroll have come up with a simple and inexpensive way to stop that problem. Simply wrap, position into place, and secure. Made from rugged polyurethane, Spiroll Chafe Guards employ a unique technology that allows them to self-wrap around a line several times. By pulling the spiral tighter, the device constricts further around a line and migration is minimized. Secures solidly and easily- no sewing required. Fits lines up to 1.25"; available in classic black and safety orange. Click Here For More Information Bob and Jody ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bob@... Jody@... Forward this to your sailing/cruising/adventurous friends so they can: & Forward this email This email was sent to mdemers2005@... by bob@... | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe� | Privacy Policy. Cruising Outpost | 909 Marina Village Parkway | Suite 351 | Alameda | CA | 94501 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29488|29446|2012-11-21 17:49:06|martin demers|Re: Plywood decks|After the reading of this article I think we should all stay with steel deck and cabin top...unless you dont go sailing very far...http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=212223&img=267044 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:03:10 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Plywood decks Was there a Wylo, not to long ago, that needed to replace its wooden deck after hitting a whale? I beleive I read that somewere, I think it was on the yahoo wylo group page. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29489|29345|2012-11-21 18:12:47|Ted|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Hi Richard, We used Websters Insulation (www.webstersinsulation.com). They travel all over the country. Their web page lists several different sorts of foam for different applications. If you use them and your boat has need of foam sprayed under battens and other tricky places tell them of the fact as their usual work is spraying sheds and the like and they use a nozzle which gives the best spray if it is 18" off the surface to be sprayed. They also like the timber surface to be higher than the finished foam surface. They did the main excess foam removal afterwards though which was very helpful. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > This sounds like the kind of thing I'd have done. I'm just south of Bristol, is the company who did your foam anywhere near me? If not, at least I have an idea of what foam to specify from another company. > > | 29490|29450|2012-11-21 19:00:03|Ted|Re: furing strips- paint?|About 15 years ago we had the inside of the tiled roof of our house polyurethane spray foamed. They left the underneath edge and about 2" or more of the rafters unsprayed to allow them to breath. The also did not spray right to the eaves or the ridge beam to allow ventilation. The difficulty with trying to encapsulate the timber to stop damp is that one is encapsulating it at the humidity it is on the day and that one is relying on the integrity of the paint to withstand installation and bolting without the paint being broken. Regards, Ted| 29491|1509|2012-11-21 19:18:09|Darren Bos|Re: Sailing engineless|My mistake, not sure where I came up with the idea the whole area had a sail exclusion, maybe I'm just to lazy to raise the sails for 1.5nm. Although, with tugboats and an endless stream of Tollycraft and their ilk, I think you have a twisted version of sailing bliss..... :-) Darren At 10:20 AM 21/11/2012, you wrote: > > >There is no sailing under either bridge, >although, sailing is permitted between the >bridges from a line drawn between Centerm and >Lonsdale street (just east of the seabus route) >to a line drawn from Berry point to Terminal >dock, Neptune terminal (1nm west of the >Ironworkers bridge) No scuba diving, water >skiing or personal water craft allowed. For a >grand total of 1.5nm of sailing bliss /.o) > >--- In origa >miboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Paul, your memory is right. Except, the Port of Vancouver > > regulations state "no sailing" between Lions Gate and Second Narrows > > Bridge, which is the bulk of the Port of Vancouver. So I suppose you > > could scull your way through. But, as you probably remember, the oil > > tankers, cargo ships, passenger ferries and hordes of power boats on > > the weekend, not to mention the tidal currents, and lifting train > > bridge would definitely make it interesting without an engine. I'm > > certainly glad to have an motor when we go through. > > > > Darren > > > > At 08:02 PM 20/11/2012, you wrote: > > >. I am > > >trying to remember, but isn't it illegal to go under the Lion's Gate > > >Bridge in Vancouver without a motor? > > > > > >I > > >Cheers, Paul > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29492|29450|2012-11-21 19:52:16|brentswain38|Re: furing strips- paint?|A friend used the offcuts of the recycled plastic lumber, made from recycled plastic bags, for firring strips. Worked well. I have sometimes been given them by lumber yards. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ted" wrote: > > About 15 years ago we had the inside of the tiled roof of our house polyurethane spray foamed. They left the underneath edge and about 2" or more of the rafters unsprayed to allow them to breath. The also did not spray right to the eaves or the ridge beam to allow ventilation. The difficulty with trying to encapsulate the timber to stop damp is that one is encapsulating it at the humidity it is on the day and that one is relying on the integrity of the paint to withstand installation and bolting without the paint being broken. > > Regards, > > Ted > | 29493|29446|2012-11-21 19:54:59|brentswain38|Re: Plywood decks|Wooden decks are a night mare. There is also no way to insulate them without causing rot. My first boat had a wooden deck . Ice formed under it on cold nights and condensation dripped off it like a leaky faucett. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > After the reading of this article I think we should all stay with steel deck and cabin top...unless you dont go sailing very far...http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=212223&img=267044 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jpronk1@... > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:03:10 -0800 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Plywood decks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was there a Wylo, not to long ago, that needed to replace its wooden deck after hitting a whale? I beleive I read that somewere, I think it was on the yahoo wylo group page. > > James > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29494|29478|2012-11-21 19:57:52|brentswain38|Re: Furling drum diameter??|I upgraded mine to 14 inches, a huge improvement. The bigger, the easier it is to furl. Line capacity can be delt with when you get it up and get the sail on it. Make sure you roll up most of your sheets on it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote: > > Ive got my extrusion all welded up now I'm starting on the furling drum. How do I figure out my furling drum diameter. I cut one out at 15" and it looks huge my genoa foot is 25 ft. And my extrusion is made out of a piece of 1/2" welded to a piece of 1.5" schedule 40. I'm not sure how many revolutions it will take to roll it up. Any suggestions??? > Thanks > Michael > > Sent from my iPhone > | 29495|1509|2012-11-21 19:59:37|brentswain38|Re: Sailing engineless|Simple solution. Stay out of Vancouver. Not worth visiting anyway. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Paul, your memory is right. Except, the Port of Vancouver > regulations state "no sailing" between Lions Gate and Second Narrows > Bridge, which is the bulk of the Port of Vancouver. So I suppose you > could scull your way through. But, as you probably remember, the oil > tankers, cargo ships, passenger ferries and hordes of power boats on > the weekend, not to mention the tidal currents, and lifting train > bridge would definitely make it interesting without an engine. I'm > certainly glad to have an motor when we go through. > > Darren > > At 08:02 PM 20/11/2012, you wrote: > >. I am > >trying to remember, but isn't it illegal to go under the Lion's Gate > >Bridge in Vancouver without a motor? > > > >I > >Cheers, Paul > | 29496|1509|2012-11-21 20:09:31|southcoveemail|Re: Insulation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Tried that, an abysmal failure. All vapour barriers fail eventually and fibreglass batts quickly get soaking wet and soggy. Stick to sprayfoam. I am sure foam is better but sometimes as you said you just need to build that friggin boat in less than ideal conditions. Some less than ideal solutions can also work. If I would do it again I would probably do it differently and built the lining after the accommodations and to make it removable like Trevor did on Ironbark (another Wylo) to be able to get at the hull easily. Cheers Thierry| 29497|29450|2012-11-22 03:22:03|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: furing strips- paint?|Am 22.11.2012 um 01:00 schrieb Ted: > The difficulty with trying to encapsulate the timber to stop damp is that one is encapsulating it at the humidity it is on the day and that one is relying on the integrity of the paint to withstand installation and bolting without the paint being broken. > ,_._,___ > Nope. What You do with "encapsulating" is nothing else than retarding the acclimatization inherent with woodgrains in both directions, will say towards drying and towards moisting/wetting. You never ever get an inert material with grown wood grains used in the game, no matter massive, veneer or prelamellated ply, no matter which sort of "encapsulating" attempts were made, it will stay wood with all it's great characteristics, while also with its confinements originated in its million years of natural developpement as "tree" and their adaption to the vastly differering environments trees inhabit. What stays the same all world round: Wood will acclimate to the surrounding relative supply of water/damp. Towards "wet" this will happen much quicker than towards "dry". This is even more the case when kiln dried first place. So what we should try when using wood, this bloody oldfashioned Neandertalers material, is retard the wetting when water is supplied, depending on the form of supply, while best inhibit least possible the needed following dry out. Oiling without a film will do this well, at least for wood nor dipped into the water neither permanently rained on, while epoxying all sides as an encapsule will raise a by far higher barrier, it keeps literally all water inside the grain long enough to lure the one or other fungus though, no matter what way the water took there (damp or fluid, through boltholes, microcracks or just permeabling while it acclimates, accumulating raising amounts of moist through seasons). And why at all? The natural evolution (or the intelligent designer, for the other fraction) had invented funghi long time ago to get rid of all the fallen wood that just laid in the way everytimes after stronger winds before the notorious Neandertalers developped the elaborated methods of reluming fire to help with this. So, wood is prone to a variety of funghi when wet, while nearly to none of 'em when fairly dried out (or well salted, what makes driftwood so persistent). What Neandertalers after some years of studying wood and its properties would do now is stepping the brake or the accelerator depending on what is intended in terms of "enable dryout" or "inhibit soaking", what might lead to oiling the one side and painting/epoxying the other of the same medal ... ooops, this was bronze, just another age again ... . Cro Magnons instead do not use neither brake nor throttle in terms of material characteristics obviously, but begin with an inert material from scratch, distort this to quite some amount, weld around a bit and go sailing already wednesday afternoon. Both ways lead to the roadsted on the other side of the pond for sure. Columbus and the bunch still had some completely different approach, though: they went towards general direction west till they found the nice little indigene girls, then fooled around over there till teredo ate up all the wood fungus hadn't got yet, and as they thought it time to go back and swagger a fair bit with "west india" they would just take three steps to the then intact forest, fell some nice big trees and nail another nutshell to bring 'em back to mama. No matter which way: navigare necesse est. (freely transduced from latin: ...a landlocked life might be possible, but would it still be eligible?) Cheers. G_B [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29498|29450|2012-11-22 05:57:21|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: furing strips- paint?|Could you use discarded UPVC? Double glazing companies have skip loads of it, mostly offcuts of 10-15mm thick flat 'planks' of various widths, and old plastic window sills. My local one is even happy to cut them to the widths I want;- they're that happy to see it go. It's PVC outside, some kind of foam inside, holds screws well, but I'm not sure what glue would hold it. Also makes great shelving. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 22 November 2012, 0:52 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furing strips- paint? A friend used the offcuts of the recycled plastic lumber, made from recycled plastic bags,  for firring strips. Worked well. I have sometimes been given them by lumber yards. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ted" wrote: > > About 15 years ago we had the inside of the tiled roof of our house polyurethane spray foamed.  They left the underneath edge and about 2" or more of the rafters unsprayed to allow them to breath. The also did not spray right to the eaves or the ridge beam to allow ventilation.  The difficulty with trying to encapsulate the timber to stop damp is that one is encapsulating it at the humidity it is on the day and that one is relying on the integrity of the paint to withstand installation and bolting without the paint being broken. > > Regards, > > Ted > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29499|29345|2012-11-22 06:04:13|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|Thanks Ted, sounds like they got you the result you wanted. ________________________________ From: Ted To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 21 November 2012, 23:12 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation Hi Richard, We used Websters Insulation (www.webstersinsulation.com).  They travel all over the country.  Their web page lists several different sorts of foam for different applications.  If you use them and your boat has need of foam sprayed under battens and other tricky places tell them of the fact as their usual work is spraying sheds and the like and they use a nozzle which gives the best spray if it is 18" off the surface to be sprayed.  They also like the timber surface to be higher than the finished foam surface.  They did the main excess foam removal afterwards though which was very helpful. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > This sounds like the kind of thing I'd have done. I'm just south of Bristol, is the company who did your foam anywhere near me? If not, at least I have an idea of what foam to specify from another company. > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29500|29450|2012-11-22 07:11:50|Ted|Re: furing strips- paint?|I think that we are saying the same thing Giuseppe: Which is that trying to stop mold and fungi with a coat of paint is not going to work if the area is damp and mold spores are about. The wood will move and the paint coating will break. Fungicidal paint might help. My firring strips (some packing case timber, some boughten) are not painted. The inside window frames are treated with fungicide, as I expect some condensation there, and then painted, so I hope that fungicide will work. The panel lining is painted on the show side and I am thinking of routing some small holes along their top edge to allow rising moist air behind the panels to escape. Years ago my dad lined the sitting room of our brick house with wood panels using firring strips that had been soaked in creosote. They didn't rot but the creosote bled though the panels. It is quite easy to get too wrapped up in detail. The best is the enemy of the good. Regards, Ted In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > Am 22.11.2012 um 01:00 schrieb Ted: > > The difficulty with trying to encapsulate the timber to stop damp is that one is encapsulating it at the humidity it is on the day and that one is relying on the integrity of the paint to withstand installation and bolting without the paint being broken. > > ,_._,___ > > > Nope. > > What You do with "encapsulating" is nothing else than retarding the acclimatization inherent with woodgrains in both directions, will say towards drying and towards moisting/wetting. > > You never ever get an inert material with grown wood grains used in the game, no matter massive, veneer or prelamellated ply, no matter which sort of "encapsulating" attempts were made, it will stay wood with all it's great characteristics, while also with its confinements originated in its million years of natural developpement as "tree" and their adaption to the vastly differering environments trees inhabit. > > What stays the same all world round: Wood will acclimate to the surrounding relative supply of water/damp. > > Towards "wet" this will happen much quicker than towards "dry". > > This is even more the case when kiln dried first place. > > So what we should try when using wood, this bloody oldfashioned Neandertalers material, is retard the wetting when water is supplied, depending on the form of supply, while best inhibit least possible the needed following dry out. > > Oiling without a film will do this well, at least for wood nor dipped into the water neither permanently rained on, while epoxying all sides as an encapsule will raise a by far higher barrier, it keeps literally all water inside the grain long enough to lure the one or other fungus though, no matter what way the water took there (damp or fluid, through boltholes, microcracks or just permeabling while it acclimates, accumulating raising amounts of moist through seasons). > > And why at all? > > The natural evolution (or the intelligent designer, for the other fraction) had invented funghi long time ago to get rid of all the fallen wood that just laid in the way everytimes after stronger winds before the notorious Neandertalers developped the elaborated methods of reluming fire to help with this. > > So, wood is prone to a variety of funghi when wet, while nearly to none of 'em when fairly dried out (or well salted, what makes driftwood so persistent). > > What Neandertalers after some years of studying wood and its properties would do now is stepping the brake or the accelerator depending on what is intended in terms of "enable dryout" or "inhibit soaking", what might lead to oiling the one side and painting/epoxying the other of the same medal ... ooops, this was bronze, just another age again ... . > > Cro Magnons instead do not use neither brake nor throttle in terms of material characteristics obviously, but begin with an inert material from scratch, distort this to quite some amount, weld around a bit and go sailing already wednesday afternoon. > > Both ways lead to the roadsted on the other side of the pond for sure. > > Columbus and the bunch still had some completely different approach, though: they went towards general direction west till they found the nice little indigene girls, then fooled around over there till teredo ate up all the wood fungus hadn't got yet, and as they thought it time to go back and swagger a fair bit with "west india" they would just take three steps to the then intact forest, fell some nice big trees and nail another nutshell to bring 'em back to mama. > > No matter which way: navigare necesse est. > > (freely transduced from latin: ...a landlocked life might be possible, but would it still be eligible?) > > Cheers. G_B > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29501|29345|2012-11-22 07:38:19|Ted|Re: polyethylene foam insulation|It would have been better if they had a nozzle suitable for closer work and for foaming behind the firring strips better. I did some remedial work as some of the voids were not seen when they were still on site. The 36' is quite small and akward to foam in some places. It would have been easier to foam if I hadn't put some steel angle frames in various place to support some of the furniture. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Thanks Ted, sounds like they got you the result you wanted. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ted > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, 21 November 2012, 23:12 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: polyethylene foam insulation > > Hi Richard, > > We used Websters Insulation (www.webstersinsulation.com).  They travel all over the country.  Their web page lists several different sorts of foam for different applications.  If you use them and your boat has need of foam sprayed under battens and other tricky places tell them of the fact as their usual work is spraying sheds and the like and they use a nozzle which gives the best spray if it is 18" off the surface to be sprayed.  They also like the timber surface to be higher than the finished foam surface.  They did the main excess foam removal afterwards though which was very helpful. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@ wrote: > > > > This sounds like the kind of thing I'd have done. I'm just south of Bristol, is the company who did your foam anywhere near me? If not, at least I have an idea of what foam to specify from another company. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29502|29450|2012-11-22 07:43:00|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: furing strips- paint?|The "some kind of foam inside" in window parts usually is crap, open cells sponge bob, but pvc won't bring probs with this foam INSIDE the profile (closed ends would help, they probably close it for You). PVC is prone to particular UV-aging (getting brittle), so it might be wise to stick to the "new" production waste. PVC is best glued to non-PVC with PUR like Sikaflex or compareables (Brent posted a cheap alternative recently here), given the surfaces are without wax or grease from mold. PUR stands for Poly Urethane Rubber. Some stick like hell, some will fail peeling, some will shear with to small interstices. It works with isocyanate as reacting chemical, so You might find interesting what they write about ventilating the construction site, particularly when applying in ranges inside a hull. They cut it to Your specification without charge? Sounds nice. Good resource anyway for private use. Just for the whole picture: What do they pay the crapman if You don't take it away for free? Am 22.11.2012 um 11:57 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > Could you use discarded UPVC? Double glazing companies have skip loads of it, mostly offcuts of 10-15mm thick flat 'planks' of various widths, and old plastic window sills. My local one is even happy to cut them to the widths I want;- they're that happy to see it go. It's PVC outside, some kind of foam inside, holds screws well, but I'm not sure what glue would hold it. Also makes great shelving. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29503|29450|2012-11-22 08:45:03|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: furing strips- paint?|The probs are the same, that's right. All just physics and a handful very easy thermodnamic principles and a bit of adiabatic theory together with material-coefficients for wood and some basic knowledge concerning nukleation and phase transition of H2O. Nothing You wouldn't get into contact with already when putting down a sweaty beertin atop the cockpit table savouring the summersunset in a smooth southerly breeze. I wouldn't like having creosote or any other fungicidal impregnation in the bunk of a leisure yacht, not to mention my liveaboard, though. That would be the point I start to watch a bit closer what really happens to wet the woodgrain enough to nurture a fierce fungus? (... or why does my clubjacket show those unfavourable stains and odors all the time while just coming from the locker ....?) Putting a reasonable woodstove inside, heating intensely, opening the hatch to regulate the temperatures on a regularly base and drying out again in summer helps some, but not with the clubjacket-problem I'm afraid. Sorry if it sounded to complicated, I did grass-root research in the field longer than I write about it in foreign English. The theory wasn't meant to keep anybody from finishing at all. More the opposite. Fail. Regards G_B Am 22.11.2012 um 13:11 schrieb Ted: > I think that we are saying the same thing Giuseppe: Which is that trying to stop mold and fungi with a coat of paint is not going to work if the area is damp and mold spores are about. The wood will move and the paint coating will break. Fungicidal paint might help. My firring strips (some packing case timber, some boughten) are not painted. The inside window frames are treated with fungicide, as I expect some condensation there, and then painted, so I hope that fungicide will work. The panel lining is painted on the show side and I am thinking of routing some small holes along their top edge to allow rising moist air behind the panels to escape. > > Years ago my dad lined the sitting room of our brick house with wood panels using firring strips that had been soaked in creosote. They didn't rot but the creosote bled though the panels. > > It is quite easy to get too wrapped up in detail. The best is the enemy of the good. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29504|29444|2012-11-22 11:39:52|wild_explorer|Re: Tacking centerline|I ended up putting/making a wedge on the end of long lumber between ground and wedging both sides of centerline, to form V and to push centerline up where I could not use car-jack. Just slightly hammer/tap it in. It works reasonably good, and long lumber helps to stay/work along the hull instead of crawling under. I do not feel comfortable to crawl under not fully supported almost 6,000 Lb of steel with wind's speed reaching 30 MPH ;) Putting jack in another (accessible) place does not work well - it is need to raise, then lower the hull on a lumber anyway in area where fixing is needed. Simple wedging allows to align the seam vertically for welding as well. Most difficult area is around midships, but usually that area has smallest angle change when joining halves (at least before setting hull's beam). It is possible to use long lumber which fits under centerline (with small lumber end's overlap) and use it as a lever (and secure it at certain angle) on both side to make V - works similar to wedges. In some areas it helps to bring centerline seam together even without using comealong/winch. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > In that case put the jack where it will fit depending on which end your > working on and jack it up an inch or two then wedge under the V using pipe, > square tube or whatever you have inline where the seam needs to go back > together then ease down the jack > > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 11:40 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > Thanks Tom! Couples of days ago I have noticed such comment watching > > Alex's video again. Unfortunately, I had no access to centerline at that > > point - centerline's edges were resting on the ground. Even now, I have > > very small distance/clearance from the ground around midships - there is no > > way to put car-jack under the hull's centerline at this point. > > > > I would use car-jack from underside (with small angle on top of it), IF I > > need to close some small gaps (in case of broken welds and spreaded edges). > > Angle will help to push centerline together. It will work only if I can fit > > car-jack under centerline in place which needs fixing. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > Push up on the V from underside will close up the small gaps > > > | 29505|29450|2012-11-22 12:11:24|wild_explorer|Re: furing strips- paint?|As I know, in Pacific NW, cedar is used for roofs and lumber for a long time. Treated with water based wood preservatives, roofs last more than 30 years. Cedar has reasonable price and available from home stores. Water based wood preservatives are cheap, but hard to find now. It is available from the stores selling products for log homes. There are some home-made mixtures which work may be even better http://www.bearfortlodge.com/home-brew-wood-and-log-preservative/ The problem, it may NOT be suitable for interior. Oil-based products are more expensive and mostly "for better look" only, but should be OK for interior. It is not simple to find good product with reasonable price. So, it is just need to treat wood (and dry it) before installation. Or... Just use bare cedar. Preferably Western Red Cedar ;)| 29506|1509|2012-11-22 12:30:19|hollowayjoshua|Re: Sailing engineless|It was our 3 year, 8,000 mile honeymoon voyage. We now have a Shannon 28 and 2 young children here in Maine. It is serious luxury to be able to stand up, and to have more than a cabin sole to sleep on. The engine is there, but after doing the engineless thing we very rarely use it. We have friends with a Brent 36 and we've followed this site since about 2006. Love the topics that pop up! Regards, Josh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Wow Josh, that is a small boat, small in the interior/storage for a 24 footer given it is a double-ender. Shoal draft at 3' 4".... No standing headroom at all though. I would find that tough for more than a weekend. Brent's 26 is sufficiently compact with a transom to give more volume. > | 29507|29478|2012-11-22 12:39:52|Mike|Re: Furling drum diameter??|Thanks, Sent from my iPhone On Nov 21, 2012, at 6:57 PM, "brentswain38" wrote: > I upgraded mine to 14 inches, a huge improvement. The bigger, the easier it is to furl. Line capacity can be delt with when you get it up and get the sail on it. Make sure you roll up most of your sheets on it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote: > > > > Ive got my extrusion all welded up now I'm starting on the furling drum. How do I figure out my furling drum diameter. I cut one out at 15" and it looks huge my genoa foot is 25 ft. And my extrusion is made out of a piece of 1/2" welded to a piece of 1.5" schedule 40. I'm not sure how many revolutions it will take to roll it up. Any suggestions??? > > Thanks > > Michael > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29508|29478|2012-11-22 13:08:41|Aaron|Re: Furling drum diameter??|Mike would you or anyone else mind posting a few photo's of their furlers.   ________________________________ From: Mike To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Furling drum diameter??   Thanks, Sent from my iPhone On Nov 21, 2012, at 6:57 PM, "brentswain38" wrote: > I upgraded mine to 14 inches, a huge improvement. The bigger, the easier it is to furl. Line capacity can be delt with when you get it up and get the sail on it. Make sure you roll up most of your sheets on it. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote: > > > > Ive got my extrusion all welded up now I'm starting on the furling drum. How do I figure out my furling drum diameter. I cut one out at 15" and it looks huge my genoa foot is 25 ft. And my extrusion is made out of a piece of 1/2" welded to a piece of 1.5" schedule 40. I'm not sure how many revolutions it will take to roll it up. Any suggestions??? > > Thanks > > Michael > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29509|29478|2012-11-22 13:20:07|Paul Wilson|Re: Furling drum diameter??|I haven't done it myself but I have seen a few boats strip the core out of the line where it rolls on to the drum. You have a regular diameter line where you winch or pull by hand but only the ropes cover/jacket on the drum. It takes up less space, and being flat tends to over-ride or jam less on the drum. Paul On 23/11/2012 6:39 a.m., Mike wrote: > > Thanks, > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 21, 2012, at 6:57 PM, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > I upgraded mine to 14 inches, a huge improvement. The bigger, the > easier it is to furl. Line capacity can be delt with when you get it > up and get the sail on it. Make sure you roll up most of your sheets > on it. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Mike wrote: > > > > > > Ive got my extrusion all welded up now I'm starting on the furling > drum. How do I figure out my furling drum diameter. I cut one out at > 15" and it looks huge my genoa foot is 25 ft. And my extrusion is made > out of a piece of 1/2" welded to a piece of 1.5" schedule 40. I'm not > sure how many revolutions it will take to roll it up. Any suggestions??? > > > Thanks > > > Michael > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > | 29510|29450|2012-11-22 14:04:52|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: furing strips- paint?|I think they have to pay to have it taken away, I'll ask if I remember to. I kind of expected the inside foam to be crap, not surprised, but  I could maybe cut the ends with hot shears to seal them. The glue sounds like it needs experimentation; it would be mighty inconvenient if it failed. They have cut things for me in the past, when they aren't busy. Just helpful people I guess! ________________________________ From: Giuseppe Bergman To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 22 November 2012, 12:42 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: furing strips- paint? The "some kind of foam inside" in window parts usually is crap, open cells sponge bob, but pvc won't bring probs with this foam INSIDE the profile (closed ends would help, they probably close it for You). PVC is prone to particular UV-aging (getting brittle), so it might be wise to stick to the "new" production waste. PVC is best glued to non-PVC with PUR like Sikaflex or compareables (Brent posted a cheap alternative recently here), given the surfaces are without wax or grease from mold. PUR stands for Poly Urethane Rubber. Some stick like hell, some will fail peeling, some will shear with to small interstices. It works with isocyanate as reacting chemical, so You might find interesting what they write about ventilating the construction site, particularly when applying in ranges inside a hull. They cut it to Your specification without charge? Sounds nice. Good resource anyway for private use. Just for the whole picture: What do they pay the crapman if You don't take it away for free? Am 22.11.2012 um 11:57 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > Could you use discarded UPVC? Double glazing companies have skip loads of it, mostly offcuts of 10-15mm thick flat 'planks' of various widths, and old plastic window sills. My local one is even happy to cut them to the widths I want;- they're that happy to see it go. It's PVC outside, some kind of foam inside, holds screws well, but I'm not sure what glue would hold it. Also makes great shelving. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29511|29450|2012-11-22 20:20:11|Darren Bos|Re: furing strips- paint?|Western Red Cedar is really nice, and if you choose planks with nice tight growth rings it can even be hard enough for some interior finishing applications, but I wouldn't use it for furring strips. It is relatively soft and won't hold a screw as well as harder woods. Douglas Fir is also pretty rot resistant (not is the same class as cedar or teak but still good) and is considerably harder (even more so if you look of boards with tight (thin) growth rings). Darren At 09:11 AM 22/11/2012, you wrote: > > >As I know, in Pacific NW, cedar is used for >roofs and lumber for a long time. Treated with >water based wood preservatives, roofs last more >than 30 years. Cedar has reasonable price and available from home stores. > >Water based wood preservatives are cheap, but >hard to find now. It is available from the >stores selling products for log homes. There are >some home-made mixtures which work may be even better > >http://www.bearfortlodge.com/home-brew-wood-and-log-preservative/ > >The problem, it may NOT be suitable for interior. > >Oil-based products are more expensive and mostly >"for better look" only, but should be OK for >interior. It is not simple to find good product with reasonable price. > >So, it is just need to treat wood (and dry it) before installation. > >Or... Just use bare cedar. Preferably Western Red Cedar ;) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29512|1509|2012-11-22 22:41:01|Brian Stannard|Re: Sailing engineless|The Shannon 28 has a transom ans an outboard rudder. http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1172 On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 9:30 AM, hollowayjoshua wrote: > ** > > > It was our 3 year, 8,000 mile honeymoon voyage. We now have a Shannon 28 > and 2 young children here in Maine. It is serious luxury to be able to > stand up, and to have more than a cabin sole to sleep on. The engine is > there, but after doing the engineless thing we very rarely use it. We have > friends with a Brent 36 and we've followed this site since about 2006. > Love the topics that pop up! > Regards, > Josh > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > Wow Josh, that is a small boat, small in the interior/storage for a 24 > footer given it is a double-ender. Shoal draft at 3' 4".... No standing > headroom at all though. I would find that tough for more than a weekend. > Brent's 26 is sufficiently compact with a transom to give more volume. > > > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29513|1509|2012-11-22 22:50:31|martin demers|Re: Sailing engineless|do you have the bow sprite on your Shannon 28? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mammoth_lakes@... Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:30:18 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless It was our 3 year, 8,000 mile honeymoon voyage. We now have a Shannon 28 and 2 young children here in Maine. It is serious luxury to be able to stand up, and to have more than a cabin sole to sleep on. The engine is there, but after doing the engineless thing we very rarely use it. We have friends with a Brent 36 and we've followed this site since about 2006. Love the topics that pop up! Regards, Josh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Wow Josh, that is a small boat, small in the interior/storage for a 24 footer given it is a double-ender. Shoal draft at 3' 4".... No standing headroom at all though. I would find that tough for more than a weekend. Brent's 26 is sufficiently compact with a transom to give more volume. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29514|1509|2012-11-22 23:09:55|Jimmy Noble|Re: Sailing engineless|I have a call 2 27 no bow sprit ...Jimmy Noble... On Nov 22, 2012 10:50 PM, "martin demers" wrote: > do you have the bow sprite on your Shannon 28? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mammoth_lakes@... > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:30:18 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was our 3 year, 8,000 mile honeymoon voyage. We now have a > Shannon 28 and 2 young children here in Maine. It is serious luxury to be > able to stand up, and to have more than a cabin sole to sleep on. The > engine is there, but after doing the engineless thing we very rarely use > it. We have friends with a Brent 36 and we've followed this site since > about 2006. > > Love the topics that pop up! > > Regards, > > Josh > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow Josh, that is a small boat, small in the interior/storage for a 24 > footer given it is a double-ender. Shoal draft at 3' 4".... No standing > headroom at all though. I would find that tough for more than a weekend. > Brent's 26 is sufficiently compact with a transom to give more volume. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29515|1509|2012-11-22 23:10:25|Jimmy Noble|Re: Sailing engineless|My boat http://www.google.com/search?q=cal+2+27&hl=en&safe=off&client=tablet-android-asus-nexus&tbo=d&rlz=1Y3NDUG_enUS497US497&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=OfOuUOSWI7Kw0AGsi4CIAg&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=600&bih=904# ...Jimmy Noble... On Nov 22, 2012 10:50 PM, "martin demers" wrote: > do you have the bow sprite on your Shannon 28? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mammoth_lakes@... > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:30:18 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was our 3 year, 8,000 mile honeymoon voyage. We now have a > Shannon 28 and 2 young children here in Maine. It is serious luxury to be > able to stand up, and to have more than a cabin sole to sleep on. The > engine is there, but after doing the engineless thing we very rarely use > it. We have friends with a Brent 36 and we've followed this site since > about 2006. > > Love the topics that pop up! > > Regards, > > Josh > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow Josh, that is a small boat, small in the interior/storage for a 24 > footer given it is a double-ender. Shoal draft at 3' 4".... No standing > headroom at all though. I would find that tough for more than a weekend. > Brent's 26 is sufficiently compact with a transom to give more volume. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29516|1509|2012-11-23 07:15:14|martin demers|Re: Sailing engineless|I was asking Josh To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jimmynoble12@... Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 22:53:06 -0500 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless I have a call 2 27 no bow sprit ...Jimmy Noble... On Nov 22, 2012 10:50 PM, "martin demers" wrote: > do you have the bow sprite on your Shannon 28? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mammoth_lakes@... > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:30:18 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was our 3 year, 8,000 mile honeymoon voyage. We now have a > Shannon 28 and 2 young children here in Maine. It is serious luxury to be > able to stand up, and to have more than a cabin sole to sleep on. The > engine is there, but after doing the engineless thing we very rarely use > it. We have friends with a Brent 36 and we've followed this site since > about 2006. > > Love the topics that pop up! > > Regards, > > Josh > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow Josh, that is a small boat, small in the interior/storage for a 24 > footer given it is a double-ender. Shoal draft at 3' 4".... No standing > headroom at all though. I would find that tough for more than a weekend. > Brent's 26 is sufficiently compact with a transom to give more volume. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29517|29450|2012-11-23 17:06:38|brentswain38|Re: furing strips- paint?|Sounds good to me. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Could you use discarded UPVC? Double glazing companies have skip loads of it, mostly offcuts of 10-15mm thick flat 'planks' of various widths, and old plastic window sills. My local one is even happy to cut them to the widths I want;- they're that happy to see it go. It's PVC outside, some kind of foam inside, holds screws well, but I'm not sure what glue would hold it. Also makes great shelving. > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, 22 November 2012, 0:52 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furing strips- paint? > > A friend used the offcuts of the recycled plastic lumber, made from recycled plastic bags,  for firring strips. Worked well. I have sometimes been given them by lumber yards. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ted" wrote: > > > > About 15 years ago we had the inside of the tiled roof of our house polyurethane spray foamed.  They left the underneath edge and about 2" or more of the rafters unsprayed to allow them to breath. The also did not spray right to the eaves or the ridge beam to allow ventilation.  The difficulty with trying to encapsulate the timber to stop damp is that one is encapsulating it at the humidity it is on the day and that one is relying on the integrity of the paint to withstand installation and bolting without the paint being broken. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29518|1509|2012-11-24 07:15:05|hollowayjoshua|Re: Sailing engineless|Yes, our Shannon 28 has a bow sprit. That is where our 4 year old and 1 year old hang out while we are at anchor. Our 1 year old loves to make us nervous by announcing, "walking up bow sprit," while we are underway in over 30 knots -- hence the only at anchor rule... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > I was asking Josh > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jimmynoble12@... > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 22:53:06 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a call 2 27 no bow sprit > > > > ...Jimmy Noble... > > On Nov 22, 2012 10:50 PM, "martin demers" wrote: > > > > > do you have the bow sprite on your Shannon 28? > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: mammoth_lakes@... > > > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:30:18 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was our 3 year, 8,000 mile honeymoon voyage. We now have a > > > Shannon 28 and 2 young children here in Maine. It is serious luxury to be > > > able to stand up, and to have more than a cabin sole to sleep on. The > > > engine is there, but after doing the engineless thing we very rarely use > > > it. We have friends with a Brent 36 and we've followed this site since > > > about 2006. > > > > > > Love the topics that pop up! > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Josh > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow Josh, that is a small boat, small in the interior/storage for a 24 > > > footer given it is a double-ender. Shoal draft at 3' 4".... No standing > > > headroom at all though. I would find that tough for more than a weekend. > > > Brent's 26 is sufficiently compact with a transom to give more volume. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29519|1509|2012-11-24 16:43:39|martin demers|Re: Sailing engineless|Josh,, How do you like the bow sprit (beside you kids who seem to love it), is it in the way in a rough sea, I mean if it goes under water? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mammoth_lakes@... Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:14:59 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless Yes, our Shannon 28 has a bow sprit. That is where our 4 year old and 1 year old hang out while we are at anchor. Our 1 year old loves to make us nervous by announcing, "walking up bow sprit," while we are underway in over 30 knots -- hence the only at anchor rule... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > I was asking Josh > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jimmynoble12@... > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 22:53:06 -0500 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a call 2 27 no bow sprit > > > > ...Jimmy Noble... > > On Nov 22, 2012 10:50 PM, "martin demers" wrote: > > > > > do you have the bow sprite on your Shannon 28? > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: mammoth_lakes@... > > > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:30:18 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sailing engineless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was our 3 year, 8,000 mile honeymoon voyage. We now have a > > > Shannon 28 and 2 young children here in Maine. It is serious luxury to be > > > able to stand up, and to have more than a cabin sole to sleep on. The > > > engine is there, but after doing the engineless thing we very rarely use > > > it. We have friends with a Brent 36 and we've followed this site since > > > about 2006. > > > > > > Love the topics that pop up! > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Josh > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow Josh, that is a small boat, small in the interior/storage for a 24 > > > footer given it is a double-ender. Shoal draft at 3' 4".... No standing > > > headroom at all though. I would find that tough for more than a weekend. > > > Brent's 26 is sufficiently compact with a transom to give more volume. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29520|1509|2012-11-25 07:37:04|josh holloway|Re: Sailing engineless|We do love the bow sprit and the cutter rig. She sails beautifully, and she is well balanced. In short, she is everything our last boat was not. The bow sprit has not gone under water yet. Regards, Josh| 29521|29521|2012-11-25 18:47:30|j|Will a BS 26 fit inside a container?|With a beam of 8' 2" the BS 26 should fit inside a 40' container. But how tall is it from bottom of bilge keels to top of house? Also, are there any photos or drawings giving an idea of interior layout? cheers, john.| 29522|29521|2012-11-26 01:38:43|badpirate36|Re: Will a BS 26 fit inside a container?|Containers are 8' feet wide, less inside /.o( --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "j" wrote: > > With a beam of 8' 2" the BS 26 should fit inside a 40' container. But how tall is it from bottom of bilge keels to top of house? > > Also, are there any photos or drawings giving an idea of interior layout? > > cheers, john. > | 29523|29521|2012-11-26 02:01:08|Kim|Re: Will a BS 26 fit inside a container?|John ... You will not get a Swain 26 inside a shipping container because the container's door opening is too small. The size of the door openings for both 20' and 40' containers are about 7'6" high and 7'8" wide. The dimensions of a Swain 26 exceed both those. Brent doesn't supply accommodation plans for the 26' because a) everyone does the accommodation layout differently anyway, and b) the accommodation is completely non-structural, so you can put in whatever you like wherever you like, or nothing at all. Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "j" wrote: > > With a beam of 8' 2" the BS 26 should fit inside a 40' container. But how tall is it from bottom of bilge keels to top of house? > > Also, are there any photos or drawings giving an idea of interior layout? > > cheers, john. | 29524|29478|2012-11-26 11:42:39|haidan|Re: Furling drum diameter??|Make it as big as you can fit into your pulpit, I used a aluminium pressure canner from the scrap yard as the "pipe" for the drum, it was the shortest piece of large diameter pipe I could find. I've got about 2 boat lengths of furling line I think. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I upgraded mine to 14 inches, a huge improvement. The bigger, the easier it is to furl. Line capacity can be delt with when you get it up and get the sail on it. Make sure you roll up most of your sheets on it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote: > > > > Ive got my extrusion all welded up now I'm starting on the furling drum. How do I figure out my furling drum diameter. I cut one out at 15" and it looks huge my genoa foot is 25 ft. And my extrusion is made out of a piece of 1/2" welded to a piece of 1.5" schedule 40. I'm not sure how many revolutions it will take to roll it up. Any suggestions??? > > Thanks > > Michael > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > | 29525|29525|2012-11-26 16:25:07|Kim|Standing on its own 3 legs!|At last!! My boat can now stand on its own 3 legs: http://smu.gs/TmEaBJ Now that all the props and everything are out of the way, it's much easier to "see" the boat. It's got extremely nice lines, Brent! I really like it! :-) Cheers ... Kim.| 29526|29525|2012-11-26 16:58:25|Matt Malone|Re: Standing on its own 3 legs!|Congratulations Kim ! Thank you for maintaining the photo log of your building project. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kimdxx@... Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:25:05 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Standing on its own 3 legs! At last!! My boat can now stand on its own 3 legs: http://smu.gs/TmEaBJ Now that all the props and everything are out of the way, it's much easier to "see" the boat. It's got extremely nice lines, Brent! I really like it! :-) Cheers ... Kim. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29527|29527|2012-11-26 17:29:29|tinboat2010|Kim's boat|Hi Kim Great job on your boat and thanks for all the photos and information on your building process ..... Tinboat| 29528|29525|2012-11-26 19:36:25|Tom Mann|Re: Standing on its own 3 legs!|Looks good Kim It's giving me flashbacks of sandblasting inside Tom On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Kim wrote: > > At last!! My boat can now stand on its own 3 legs: > > http://smu.gs/TmEaBJ > > Now that all the props and everything are out of the way, it's much easier > to "see" the boat. It's got extremely nice lines, Brent! I really like it! > :-) > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29529|29525|2012-11-26 19:58:37|brentswain38|Re: Standing on its own 3 legs!|Nice work. Looks great. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > At last!! My boat can now stand on its own 3 legs: > > http://smu.gs/TmEaBJ > > Now that all the props and everything are out of the way, it's much easier to "see" the boat. It's got extremely nice lines, Brent! I really like it! :-) > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > | 29530|29525|2012-11-27 05:59:28|southcoveemail|Re: Standing on its own 3 legs!|Well done Kim and thank you for the very detailed and excellent photo blog of your build. Keep doing it please. Cheers Thierry| 29531|29531|2012-11-27 16:11:19|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires it. Martin.| 29532|29531|2012-11-27 17:36:13|Darren Bos|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of the prop? Darren At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires it. > >Martin. | 29533|29531|2012-11-27 17:45:02|martin demers|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|if it can handle the force from a carwheel and tire , why wouldn't it handle the one from a propeller? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: bosdg@... Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:36:41 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of the prop? Darren At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires it. > >Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29534|29531|2012-11-27 17:50:51|j fisher|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|I dont think a CV will handle the thrust forces. The spindles in a car handle those loads. On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:45 PM, martin demers wrote: > > if it can handle the force from a carwheel and tire , why wouldn't it > handle the one from a propeller? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: bosdg@... > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:36:41 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of > the prop? > > > > Darren > > > > At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission > > >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to > > >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. > > >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft > > >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. > > >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to > > >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires > it. > > > > > >Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29535|29531|2012-11-27 18:04:11|martin demers|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|the propeller shaft would pass through a thrust bearing where it bolts to the shaft. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jfisher577@... Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 15:50:49 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft I dont think a CV will handle the thrust forces. The spindles in a car handle those loads. On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:45 PM, martin demers wrote: > > if it can handle the force from a carwheel and tire , why wouldn't it > handle the one from a propeller? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: bosdg@... > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:36:41 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of > the prop? > > > > Darren > > > > At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission > > >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to > > >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. > > >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft > > >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. > > >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to > > >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires > it. > > > > > >Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29536|29531|2012-11-27 20:03:10|Robert Jones|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|There are CV(constant velocity) joints that will handle the force, but you might have to get one for a heavier vehicle. The would be used only if your prop shaft and propeller angle were to be different that the output shaft on the engine. The simplest way, if possible is to mount the engine to meet the angle of the prop and shaft. But, if no, you could use a CV joint but, if it were me, and i needed to change the angle, i would put a pillar bearing before the the hull bearing/packing so as to limit movement of the shaft caused by the CV. To choose a CV,first you need to know the MAX thrust  pressure that the prop shaft could come under and find a joint to match.  There actually can be two CV joints if the engine has to be offset. I looked at a 72 Defever trawler that had the engines mounted backwards, doube(large) CV joints into a reduction gear that not only reduced the gearing, but reversed the shaft( the shaft in side, was the shaft out side) and pointed the prop shaft down through the thrust bearing and ending through the hull where the props were directly under each engine. This allowed the two 350 HP engines to be near the back of the boat.                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29537|29531|2012-11-28 08:35:27|mkriley48|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|having worked on a aquadrive in a 60 foot boat it was a thrust bearing in front of the stuffing box and I believe the cv joints were from a volvo. I would avoid it if possible as they work only in a limited range of offset and are tricky to adjust and are prone to vibration. The shaft assembly has to be high speed balanced. it was a bitch to get right and that was a install from the factory. the angle needs to be the same on each cv joint. nice project if you have a week to spare, had to move the engine several times. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > if it can handle the force from a carwheel and tire , why wouldn't it handle the one from a propeller? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: bosdg@... > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:36:41 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of the prop? > > > > Darren > > > > At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission > > >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to > > >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. > > >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft > > >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. > > >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to > > >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires it. > > > > > >Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29538|29531|2012-11-28 08:48:39|martin demers|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|are you saying aquadrive uses volvo cv joints in their kits or that that boat had a kind of aquadrive made with volvo cv joints? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mkriley48@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 13:35:25 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft having worked on a aquadrive in a 60 foot boat it was a thrust bearing in front of the stuffing box and I believe the cv joints were from a volvo. I would avoid it if possible as they work only in a limited range of offset and are tricky to adjust and are prone to vibration. The shaft assembly has to be high speed balanced. it was a bitch to get right and that was a install from the factory. the angle needs to be the same on each cv joint. nice project if you have a week to spare, had to move the engine several times. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > if it can handle the force from a carwheel and tire , why wouldn't it handle the one from a propeller? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: bosdg@... > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:36:41 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of the prop? > > > > Darren > > > > At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission > > >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to > > >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. > > >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft > > >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. > > >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to > > >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires it. > > > > > >Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29539|29531|2012-11-28 09:20:09|martin demers|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|according to aquadrive publicity it solves all your engine alignment and vibrations problems, at a high price (around $1500.00 for a 40hp engine) and from your experience it didn't? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mkriley48@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 13:35:25 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft having worked on a aquadrive in a 60 foot boat it was a thrust bearing in front of the stuffing box and I believe the cv joints were from a volvo. I would avoid it if possible as they work only in a limited range of offset and are tricky to adjust and are prone to vibration. The shaft assembly has to be high speed balanced. it was a bitch to get right and that was a install from the factory. the angle needs to be the same on each cv joint. nice project if you have a week to spare, had to move the engine several times. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > if it can handle the force from a carwheel and tire , why wouldn't it handle the one from a propeller? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: bosdg@... > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:36:41 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of the prop? > > > > Darren > > > > At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission > > >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to > > >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. > > >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft > > >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. > > >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to > > >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires it. > > > > > >Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29540|29531|2012-11-28 10:23:56|Robert Jones|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|It should help, if combined with pillar bearing. Might take two to offset each other for total alignment. But nothing solves any problem totally. Everyone with a product to sell, wants you to believe it is the best. I would say that CV joints are neither "snake oil"  or "cure oil". But easily can be done for well under $1500. Find an offroad shop that specializes in Rock Crawlers or even Mud Racing, and they can steer you to hardened CV joints that will fit your app for 2-500$(US). If you can get the max torque in psi that you feel your shaft experiences, i will try to help find one for you. Used to build rock crawlers before i got smart and decided to go back to the water! good luck, robert --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 7:20 AM according to aquadrive publicity it solves all your engine alignment and vibrations problems, at a high price (around $1500.00 for a 40hp engine) and from your experience it didn't? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mkriley48@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 13:35:25 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft                         having worked on a aquadrive in a 60 foot boat it was a thrust bearing in front of the stuffing box and I believe the cv joints were from a volvo. I would avoid it if possible as they work only in a limited range of offset and are tricky to adjust and are prone to vibration. The shaft assembly has to be high speed balanced. it was a bitch to get right and that was a install from the factory. the angle needs to be the same on each cv joint. nice project if you have a week to spare, had to move the engine several times. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > if it can handle the force from a carwheel and tire , why wouldn't it handle the one from a propeller? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: bosdg@... > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:36:41 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > >    > > >      >        >        >       Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of the prop? > > > > Darren > > > > At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission > > >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to > > >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. > > >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft > > >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. > > >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to > > >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires it. > > > > > >Martin. > > > > > >      >      > >      >      > > > > > > >                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29541|29531|2012-11-28 10:46:06|martin demers|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|I took aquadrive as an exemple, but of course I would make everything by myself . I was thinking to use VW cv joints because I have a few on hand (Vw Vanagon) including the shaft. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 07:23:54 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft It should help, if combined with pillar bearing. Might take two to offset each other for total alignment. But nothing solves any problem totally. Everyone with a product to sell, wants you to believe it is the best. I would say that CV joints are neither "snake oil" or "cure oil". But easily can be done for well under $1500. Find an offroad shop that specializes in Rock Crawlers or even Mud Racing, and they can steer you to hardened CV joints that will fit your app for 2-500$(US). If you can get the max torque in psi that you feel your shaft experiences, i will try to help find one for you. Used to build rock crawlers before i got smart and decided to go back to the water! good luck, robert --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 7:20 AM according to aquadrive publicity it solves all your engine alignment and vibrations problems, at a high price (around $1500.00 for a 40hp engine) and from your experience it didn't? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mkriley48@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 13:35:25 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft having worked on a aquadrive in a 60 foot boat it was a thrust bearing in front of the stuffing box and I believe the cv joints were from a volvo. I would avoid it if possible as they work only in a limited range of offset and are tricky to adjust and are prone to vibration. The shaft assembly has to be high speed balanced. it was a bitch to get right and that was a install from the factory. the angle needs to be the same on each cv joint. nice project if you have a week to spare, had to move the engine several times. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > if it can handle the force from a carwheel and tire , why wouldn't it handle the one from a propeller? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: bosdg@... > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:36:41 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of the prop? > > > > Darren > > > > At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission > > >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to > > >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. > > >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft > > >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. > > >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to > > >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires it. > > > > > >Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29542|29531|2012-11-28 12:33:57|Matt Malone|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|Realistically, if you look at the CV joints from automotive sources, please take into account a large factor of safety. If you look at a FWD car, and take the car horsepower, and divide by two, maybe you think you are getting an idea of the horsepower carried through those joints to one wheel. A very important distinction is, this is *peak* horsepower that cars only approach in stomp-on-it acceleration. Often when one stomps on it, there are some noises coming from cheap car parts -- noise does not speak well for service life. Boat horsepower is different, because you will operate for long periods of time under sustained load at a good fraction of peak loads. I am not sure what factor of safety you might apply, but, if you have a 40 hp boat motor, I would start by looking at CV joints for a V8, 4wd truck or something heavier, not a little 80 hp four-banger hatchback like one might guess by dividing 80hp by 2 to get 40hp. If I had a 20 hp engine, then I might look at parts in the full-sized FWD sedan ballpark. I would sooner buy a bigger, cheaper, common one, and carry a spare. I also think an auto recycling yard is not a bad place to shop, because it is probable you can get a matching set of 4 and two shafts from one vehicle -- your main and spare in one shot. Remember, with a boat, you have exact control over the geometry of the mounting, it does not change with suspension travel like in a car. You can have two properly oriented universals, and an intermediate angle in your connecting shaft, and accomplish the same thing as the CV joint. Vibration would arise from the acceleration and deceleration of the connecting shaft as the universals work through a revolution. There are also big CV joints on really big rear wheel drive sedans. My 1974 Buick LeSabre (455-V8) has one. There must be more modern RWD sedans that do. If one can cut and weld a boat, cutting and welding a driveshaft to make it shorter is not much. Beware of big, primative, spring-loaded "CV" joints, like the one in my 1974 Buick LeSabre. They are essentially 2 universals and a 4 inch intermediate shaft with spring pressure keeping the angles equal. It seems to me these might put extra loads on bearings and seals when running at a constant angle. The newer technology sphere and cup type, as far as I know, do not require preloading and hence would put less load on other components. You can tell immediately when you hold them in your hands if a CV uses a spring preload -- it will try to straighten instead of flop over. If you have a 60 - 80hp boat motor in a 60 footer, you are going to have more trouble finding common parts heavy enough, without getting too bulky, i.e. dump truck. But then again, you are already used to paying a lot more for parts. (Kim & his 26' may laugh all the way to the bank now.) My main complaint with rock crawlers would be, cost and availability of replacements, or double cost to pre-purchase spares. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 07:23:54 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft It should help, if combined with pillar bearing. Might take two to offset each other for total alignment. But nothing solves any problem totally. Everyone with a product to sell, wants you to believe it is the best. I would say that CV joints are neither "snake oil" or "cure oil". But easily can be done for well under $1500. Find an offroad shop that specializes in Rock Crawlers or even Mud Racing, and they can steer you to hardened CV joints that will fit your app for 2-500$(US). If you can get the max torque in psi that you feel your shaft experiences, i will try to help find one for you. Used to build rock crawlers before i got smart and decided to go back to the water! good luck, robert --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 7:20 AM according to aquadrive publicity it solves all your engine alignment and vibrations problems, at a high price (around $1500.00 for a 40hp engine) and from your experience it didn't? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mkriley48@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 13:35:25 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft having worked on a aquadrive in a 60 foot boat it was a thrust bearing in front of the stuffing box and I believe the cv joints were from a volvo. I would avoid it if possible as they work only in a limited range of offset and are tricky to adjust and are prone to vibration. The shaft assembly has to be high speed balanced. it was a bitch to get right and that was a install from the factory. the angle needs to be the same on each cv joint. nice project if you have a week to spare, had to move the engine several times. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > if it can handle the force from a carwheel and tire , why wouldn't it handle the one from a propeller? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: bosdg@... > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:36:41 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of the prop? > > > > Darren > > > > At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission > > >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to > > >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. > > >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft > > >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. > > >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to > > >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires it. > > > > > >Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29543|29531|2012-11-28 14:43:46|Robert Jones|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|I would guess would guess that the Vanagon joints would be sufficient,if in good shape, but could not be sure without figuring the torque requirements of the prop shaft, and also the angle the CV will be working at. Believe it or not, the angle that it runs at effects both strength and longevity. Also, if used,, and sitting for a while, i would replace the two  U-joints within the CV, probably with greaseable ones. And get an extra, or two as a spare. That is unless the VW joints are some of the rare ones that came with grease fittings. If so, i would check for movement looseness(before greasing), the mount, grease and go(still with a couple of spares and the appropriate lock ring pliers. If the U-joints are not replaceable, you do not want to use them, because, at some point, they will fail and leave you stranded. --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 8:46 AM I took aquadrive as an exemple, but  of course I would make everything by myself . I was thinking to use VW cv joints  because I have a few on hand (Vw Vanagon) including the shaft. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 07:23:54 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft                         It should help, if combined with pillar bearing. Might take two to offset each other for total alignment. But nothing solves any problem totally. Everyone with a product to sell, wants you to believe it is the best. I would say that CV joints are neither "snake oil"  or "cure oil". But easily can be done for well under $1500. Find an offroad shop that specializes in Rock Crawlers or even Mud Racing, and they can steer you to hardened CV joints that will fit your app for 2-500$(US). If you can get the max torque in psi that you feel your shaft experiences, i will try to help find one for you. Used to build rock crawlers before i got smart and decided to go back to the water! good luck, robert --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 7:20 AM according to aquadrive publicity it solves all your engine alignment and vibrations problems, at a high price (around $1500.00 for a 40hp engine) and from your experience it didn't? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mkriley48@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 13:35:25 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft                         having worked on a aquadrive in a 60 foot boat it was a thrust bearing in front of the stuffing box and I believe the cv joints were from a volvo. I would avoid it if possible as they work only in a limited range of offset and are tricky to adjust and are prone to vibration. The shaft assembly has to be high speed balanced. it was a bitch to get right and that was a install from the factory. the angle needs to be the same on each cv joint. nice project if you have a week to spare, had to move the engine several times. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > if it can handle the force from a carwheel and tire , why wouldn't it handle the one from a propeller? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: bosdg@... > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:36:41 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > >    > > >      >        >        >       Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of the prop? > > > > Darren > > > > At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission > > >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to > > >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. > > >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft > > >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. > > >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to > > >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires it. > > > > > >Martin. > > > > > >      >      > >      >      > > > > > > >                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >                                                 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29544|29544|2012-11-28 16:09:22|Paul Wilson|Opus IV Relaunch|Howdy, I finally relaunched Opus IV, my BS36 in New Plymouth, NZ yesterday after a too long haulout. She needed a good repaint and tidy up after originally launching in 1992. New Plymouth has no good haulout facilities since it is mainly a deepsea port. I had to use a crane. The pictures are pretty much self explanatory. The cradle lifted out with the boat over the fence. The boat was set down, the crane repositioned and then she was launched on the high tide. In total it took about 2 hours. The crane operator said she was 10 tons but she had less in her than before when the crane operator said she was 9 tons. I am not sure what to make of that.... Pictures in the following link. There are some other sets of photos of local indigenous boats I have taken in some of my travels. Although unrelated, you might like them as well, . http://www.flickr.com/photos/88750525@N03/ Cheers, Paul| 29545|29521|2012-11-28 16:12:58|themigliorefamily|Re: Will a BS 26 fit inside a container?|Yes you can easily get it inside. I did it before with a powerboat with an 8ft beam. I just tilted the boat abit on the cradle. It's elementary school geometry :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "j" wrote: > > With a beam of 8' 2" the BS 26 should fit inside a 40' container. But how tall is it from bottom of bilge keels to top of house? > > Also, are there any photos or drawings giving an idea of interior layout? > > cheers, john. > | 29546|29544|2012-11-28 16:19:38|brentswain38|Re: Opus IV Relaunch|No need for the slings. Those lifting eyes amidships are for lifting the boat,are a huge overkill in terms of strength, and are more or less on the longitudinal centre of gravity. Saves ones paint job. If one end is a bit low, a lightly loaded, cheap comealong will level her up. The differences in weight say a lot about the inaccuracy of most large scales. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Howdy, > > I finally relaunched Opus IV, my BS36 in New Plymouth, NZ yesterday > after a too long haulout. She needed a good repaint and tidy up after > originally launching in 1992. New Plymouth has no good haulout > facilities since it is mainly a deepsea port. I had to use a crane. > The pictures are pretty much self explanatory. The cradle lifted out > with the boat over the fence. The boat was set down, the crane > repositioned and then she was launched on the high tide. In total it > took about 2 hours. The crane operator said she was 10 tons but she had > less in her than before when the crane operator said she was 9 tons. I > am not sure what to make of that.... > > Pictures in the following link. There are some other sets of photos > of local indigenous boats I have taken in some of my travels. Although > unrelated, you might like them as well, . > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/88750525@N03/ > > Cheers, Paul > | 29547|29531|2012-11-28 16:28:11|brentswain38|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|Friends have done it, with a thrust bearing in front of the stuffing box.It works well.Front wheel drive cars have two on a short shaft. On my last engine, a ten HP Hat, I replaced the couplings with a U joint. Worked well, no problems, but I have heard of a wooden boat which had one sheer off, and the flailing parts punched a hole in the hull.No chance of that with a steel hull, but with a U joint, some kind of cover would be a good idea. No chance of a CV joint twisting off, they are much stronger. Grossly over priced marine versions are a scam. Get yours at the auto wreckers. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Realistically, if you look at the CV joints from automotive sources, please take into account a large factor of safety. > > If you look at a FWD car, and take the car horsepower, and divide by two, maybe you think you are getting an idea of the horsepower carried through those joints to one wheel. A very important distinction is, this is *peak* horsepower that cars only approach in stomp-on-it acceleration. Often when one stomps on it, there are some noises coming from cheap car parts -- noise does not speak well for service life. Boat horsepower is different, because you will operate for long periods of time under sustained load at a good fraction of peak loads. > > I am not sure what factor of safety you might apply, but, if you have a 40 hp boat motor, I would start by looking at CV joints for a V8, 4wd truck or something heavier, not a little 80 hp four-banger hatchback like one might guess by dividing 80hp by 2 to get 40hp. If I had a 20 hp engine, then I might look at parts in the full-sized FWD sedan ballpark. I would sooner buy a bigger, cheaper, common one, and carry a spare. I also think an auto recycling yard is not a bad place to shop, because it is probable you can get a matching set of 4 and two shafts from one vehicle -- your main and spare in one shot. > > Remember, with a boat, you have exact control over the geometry of the > mounting, it does not change with suspension travel like in a car. You can have two properly oriented universals, and an intermediate angle > in your connecting shaft, and accomplish the same thing as the CV > joint. Vibration would arise from the acceleration and deceleration of > the connecting shaft as the universals work through a revolution. > > There > are also big CV joints on really big rear wheel drive sedans. My 1974 > Buick LeSabre (455-V8) has one. There must be more modern RWD sedans that do. > If one can cut and weld a boat, cutting and welding a driveshaft to make > it shorter is not much. > > Beware of big, primative, spring-loaded "CV" joints, like the one in my 1974 Buick LeSabre. They are essentially 2 universals and a 4 inch intermediate shaft with spring pressure keeping the angles equal. It seems to me these might put extra loads on bearings and seals when running at a constant angle. The newer technology sphere and cup type, as far as I know, do not require preloading and hence would put less load on other components. You can tell immediately when you hold them in your hands if a CV uses a spring preload -- it will try to straighten instead of flop over. > > If you have a 60 - 80hp boat motor in a 60 footer, you are going to > have more trouble finding common parts heavy enough, without getting too > bulky, i.e. dump truck. But then again, you are already used > to paying a lot more for parts. (Kim & his 26' may laugh all the > way to the bank now.) > > My main complaint with rock crawlers would be, cost and availability of replacements, or double cost to pre-purchase spares. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: pha7env@... > Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 07:23:54 -0800 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It should help, if combined with pillar bearing. Might take two to offset each other for total alignment. But nothing solves any problem totally. Everyone with a product to sell, wants you to believe it is the best. I would say that CV joints are neither "snake oil" or "cure oil". But easily can be done for well under $1500. Find an offroad shop that specializes in Rock Crawlers or even Mud Racing, and they can steer you to hardened CV joints that will fit your app for 2-500$(US). If you can get the max torque in psi that you feel your shaft experiences, i will try to help find one for you. Used to build rock crawlers before i got smart and decided to go back to the water! good luck, robert > > > > --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: > > > > From: martin demers > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 7:20 AM > > > > according to aquadrive publicity it solves all your engine alignment and vibrations problems, at a high price (around $1500.00 for a 40hp engine) > > and from your experience it didn't? > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mkriley48@... > > Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 13:35:25 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > having worked on a aquadrive in a 60 foot boat it was > > > > a thrust bearing in front of the stuffing box and I believe the cv joints were from a volvo. I would avoid it if possible as they work > > > > only in a limited range of offset and are tricky to adjust and are prone to vibration. The shaft assembly has to be high speed balanced. > > > > it was a bitch to get right and that was a install from the factory. > > > > the angle needs to be the same on each cv joint. nice project if you have a week to spare, > > > > had to move the engine several times. > > > > mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it can handle the force from a carwheel and tire , why wouldn't it handle the one from a propeller? > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: bosdg@ > > > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:36:41 -0800 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of the prop? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Darren > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission > > > > > > > > > > >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to > > > > > > > > > > >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. > > > > > > > > > > >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft > > > > > > > > > > >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. > > > > > > > > > > >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to > > > > > > > > > > >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29548|29544|2012-11-28 16:33:13|Paul Wilson|Re: Opus IV Relaunch|Where do you have the eyes? I don't remember them in the plans or in your book. I wondered about lifting her from the mid scuppers because that is the center of gravity but I don't think the crane operator would have agreed to that....they are pretty conservative and hate doing anything out of the norm. The straps didn't mar the paint at all since the paint was about a week old and they had sleeves on the straps which allowed them to slide easily as they tightened. I would have wrapped plastic garbage bags around the strops if they hadn't had the sleeves. Cheers, Paul On 29/11/2012 10:19 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > No need for the slings. Those lifting eyes amidships are for lifting > the boat,are a huge overkill in terms of strength, and are more or > less on the longitudinal centre of gravity. Saves ones paint job. If > one end is a bit low, a lightly loaded, cheap comealong will level her up. | 29549|29531|2012-11-28 16:39:43|Matt Malone|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|Second that about failures of u-joints, and protection. An extreme example, but I have seen the u-joint failure in the drive shaft between the engine and transmission of a bus punch a hole clean up through the floor of the bus and dent the stainless steel hand rails and the ceiling. There were needle bearings all over everything. Good thing the bus was nearly empty at the time. Later models of the bus had a beefy arch of 3/16" or 1/4" steel over that area and bolted down to the frame on either side of the driveshaft. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 21:28:09 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft Friends have done it, with a thrust bearing in front of the stuffing box.It works well.Front wheel drive cars have two on a short shaft. On my last engine, a ten HP Hat, I replaced the couplings with a U joint. Worked well, no problems, but I have heard of a wooden boat which had one sheer off, and the flailing parts punched a hole in the hull.No chance of that with a steel hull, but with a U joint, some kind of cover would be a good idea. No chance of a CV joint twisting off, they are much stronger. Grossly over priced marine versions are a scam. Get yours at the auto wreckers. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Realistically, if you look at the CV joints from automotive sources, please take into account a large factor of safety. > > If you look at a FWD car, and take the car horsepower, and divide by two, maybe you think you are getting an idea of the horsepower carried through those joints to one wheel. A very important distinction is, this is *peak* horsepower that cars only approach in stomp-on-it acceleration. Often when one stomps on it, there are some noises coming from cheap car parts -- noise does not speak well for service life. Boat horsepower is different, because you will operate for long periods of time under sustained load at a good fraction of peak loads. > > I am not sure what factor of safety you might apply, but, if you have a 40 hp boat motor, I would start by looking at CV joints for a V8, 4wd truck or something heavier, not a little 80 hp four-banger hatchback like one might guess by dividing 80hp by 2 to get 40hp. If I had a 20 hp engine, then I might look at parts in the full-sized FWD sedan ballpark. I would sooner buy a bigger, cheaper, common one, and carry a spare. I also think an auto recycling yard is not a bad place to shop, because it is probable you can get a matching set of 4 and two shafts from one vehicle -- your main and spare in one shot. > > Remember, with a boat, you have exact control over the geometry of the > mounting, it does not change with suspension travel like in a car. You can have two properly oriented universals, and an intermediate angle > in your connecting shaft, and accomplish the same thing as the CV > joint. Vibration would arise from the acceleration and deceleration of > the connecting shaft as the universals work through a revolution. > > There > are also big CV joints on really big rear wheel drive sedans. My 1974 > Buick LeSabre (455-V8) has one. There must be more modern RWD sedans that do. > If one can cut and weld a boat, cutting and welding a driveshaft to make > it shorter is not much. > > Beware of big, primative, spring-loaded "CV" joints, like the one in my 1974 Buick LeSabre. They are essentially 2 universals and a 4 inch intermediate shaft with spring pressure keeping the angles equal. It seems to me these might put extra loads on bearings and seals when running at a constant angle. The newer technology sphere and cup type, as far as I know, do not require preloading and hence would put less load on other components. You can tell immediately when you hold them in your hands if a CV uses a spring preload -- it will try to straighten instead of flop over. > > If you have a 60 - 80hp boat motor in a 60 footer, you are going to > have more trouble finding common parts heavy enough, without getting too > bulky, i.e. dump truck. But then again, you are already used > to paying a lot more for parts. (Kim & his 26' may laugh all the > way to the bank now.) > > My main complaint with rock crawlers would be, cost and availability of replacements, or double cost to pre-purchase spares. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: pha7env@... > Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 07:23:54 -0800 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It should help, if combined with pillar bearing. Might take two to offset each other for total alignment. But nothing solves any problem totally. Everyone with a product to sell, wants you to believe it is the best. I would say that CV joints are neither "snake oil" or "cure oil". But easily can be done for well under $1500. Find an offroad shop that specializes in Rock Crawlers or even Mud Racing, and they can steer you to hardened CV joints that will fit your app for 2-500$(US). If you can get the max torque in psi that you feel your shaft experiences, i will try to help find one for you. Used to build rock crawlers before i got smart and decided to go back to the water! good luck, robert > > > > --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: > > > > From: martin demers > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 7:20 AM > > > > according to aquadrive publicity it solves all your engine alignment and vibrations problems, at a high price (around $1500.00 for a 40hp engine) > > and from your experience it didn't? > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mkriley48@... > > Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 13:35:25 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > having worked on a aquadrive in a 60 foot boat it was > > > > a thrust bearing in front of the stuffing box and I believe the cv joints were from a volvo. I would avoid it if possible as they work > > > > only in a limited range of offset and are tricky to adjust and are prone to vibration. The shaft assembly has to be high speed balanced. > > > > it was a bitch to get right and that was a install from the factory. > > > > the angle needs to be the same on each cv joint. nice project if you have a week to spare, > > > > had to move the engine several times. > > > > mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it can handle the force from a carwheel and tire , why wouldn't it handle the one from a propeller? > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: bosdg@ > > > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:36:41 -0800 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a cv joint handle the force along its axis from the thrust of the prop? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Darren > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 01:11 PM 27/11/2012, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Did anyone ever attached his propeller shaft to the transmission > > > > > > > > > > >flange with a shorthened car axle with cv joints at both ends to > > > > > > > > > > >make something similar to Aquadrive but for much cheaper. > > > > > > > > > > >That is assuming that a bearing is installed to the end of the shaft > > > > > > > > > > >where the cv joint would be bolted to keep the shaft from moving. > > > > > > > > > > >Advantage; engine installation made more easy and possibility to > > > > > > > > > > >give some angle to your engine if the configuration of the boat requires it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29550|29531|2012-11-28 16:52:51|Paul Wilson|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|I wouldn't have the CV joints or thrust bearing. It is a lot of complication for little gain. A small boat should be kept simple and nothing is simpler than a shaft direct on to a gearbox. Keep everything aligned and there are seldom any problems. Paul| 29551|29531|2012-11-28 18:00:28|mauro gonzaga|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? mauro ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft   I wouldn't have the CV joints or thrust bearing. It is a lot of complication for little gain. A small boat should be kept simple and nothing is simpler than a shaft direct on to a gearbox. Keep everything aligned and there are seldom any problems. Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29552|29531|2012-11-28 18:05:14|martin demers|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|he meant no thrust bearing if you dont install the cv joints and axle. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: maurogonzaga1940@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 15:00:21 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? mauro ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft I wouldn't have the CV joints or thrust bearing. It is a lot of complication for little gain. A small boat should be kept simple and nothing is simpler than a shaft direct on to a gearbox. Keep everything aligned and there are seldom any problems. Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29553|29531|2012-11-28 18:50:05|Paul Wilson|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|I am not sure what you mean. A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing. If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints. This arrangement takes the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see how that is really a problem. In either arrangement, alignment should be well done. I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft. With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job unless you change something. Paul On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? > mauro > | 29554|29531|2012-11-28 19:06:39|martin demers|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|I thought that with cv joints it allowed you with an easier alignent that is the reason why I was interested in cv joints but if you still need a precise alignement, then why bother with those joints. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:46:43 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft I am not sure what you mean. A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing. If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints. This arrangement takes the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see how that is really a problem. In either arrangement, alignment should be well done. I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft. With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job unless you change something. Paul On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? > mauro > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29555|29531|2012-11-28 19:35:43|m riley|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|aquadrive brand. on a `100 hp perkins. very fussy to get right| 29556|29531|2012-11-28 19:40:27|martin demers|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|and it sells for $1500.00!!! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mkriley48@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 16:35:42 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft aquadrive brand. on a `100 hp perkins. very fussy to get right [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29557|29531|2012-11-28 19:44:24|Paul Wilson|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|My understanding is this......the thrust bearing to the shaft will need good alignment. The CV joints allow a lot of movement and more flexibility in mounting the engine. I would think that you could then go to very soft mounts on the engine which would allow for less noise into the hull. Personally, I am not a fan of really soft engine mounts like the type Yanmar uses. They are expensive and the engine shakes too much at low revs. I would think (as said earlier) that setting up a CV joint installation would be much more work (and maintenance) than a standard installation with more to go wrong. Unless you REALLY need a quiet engine installation, or need the flexibility to mount the engine at a weird angle compared to the shaft, I wouldn't do it. Am I wrong here? Paul On 29/11/2012 1:06 p.m., martin demers wrote: > I thought that with cv joints it allowed you with an easier alignent > that is the reason why I was interested in cv joints but if you still need a precise alignement, then why bother with those joints. > > Martin | 29558|29531|2012-11-28 19:49:08|mkriley48|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|I agree with paul I feel the aquadrive is a solution in search of a problem. avoid it unless you have some very unusual layout. Do what people have been doing for a hundred years and save your money. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I wouldn't have the CV joints or thrust bearing. It is a lot of > complication for little gain. A small boat should be kept simple and > nothing is simpler than a shaft direct on to a gearbox. Keep everything > aligned and there are seldom any problems. Paul > | 29559|29531|2012-11-28 22:06:58|Robert Jones|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|Martin, a CV joint will allow for change of angle, although in doing so, it does complicate the setup and require other measures, such as the pillar and thrust bearings that have been discussed. Go to CV joints on Wikepedia and you will see different designs, which usaually go by the inventor's name. I don't think, for a 40 hp engine, you would need something really heavy, but for engines with 300 to 1000 hp, i like to use the Double Cardan joint of the complete Double Candan Shaft. I have seen them used on setups from 16 to 2000 hp. Used in lots of cars --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 5:06 PM I thought that with cv joints it allowed you with an easier alignent that is the reason why I was interested in cv joints but if you still need a precise alignement, then why bother with those joints. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:46:43 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft                         I am not sure what you mean.   A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing.  If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints.  This arrangement takes the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see how that is really a problem.  In either arrangement, alignment should be well done.  I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft.    With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job unless you change something. Paul On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? > mauro >                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29560|29531|2012-11-28 22:09:01|Robert Jones|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|$1500 is ridiculous! --- On Wed, 11/28/12, mkriley48 wrote: From: mkriley48 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 5:49 PM   I agree with paul I feel the aquadrive is a solution in search of a problem. avoid it unless you have some very unusual layout. Do what people have been doing for a hundred years and save your money. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I wouldn't have the CV joints or thrust bearing. It is a lot of > complication for little gain. A small boat should be kept simple and > nothing is simpler than a shaft direct on to a gearbox. Keep everything > aligned and there are seldom any problems. Paul > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29561|29531|2012-11-28 22:11:35|martin demers|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|Robert, The change of angle was also another reason why I was interested in the cv joint configuration. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:06:56 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft Martin, a CV joint will allow for change of angle, although in doing so, it does complicate the setup and require other measures, such as the pillar and thrust bearings that have been discussed. Go to CV joints on Wikepedia and you will see different designs, which usaually go by the inventor's name. I don't think, for a 40 hp engine, you would need something really heavy, but for engines with 300 to 1000 hp, i like to use the Double Cardan joint of the complete Double Candan Shaft. I have seen them used on setups from 16 to 2000 hp. Used in lots of cars --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 5:06 PM I thought that with cv joints it allowed you with an easier alignent that is the reason why I was interested in cv joints but if you still need a precise alignement, then why bother with those joints. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:46:43 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft I am not sure what you mean. A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing. If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints. This arrangement takes the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see how that is really a problem. In either arrangement, alignment should be well done. I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft. With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job unless you change something. Paul On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? > mauro > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29562|29531|2012-11-28 22:16:42|Robert Jones|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|--- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 8:11 PM Martin, i am onboard with the change of angle that you need to effectively overcome. My intent, throughout this thread, has been to help you understand how to correctly do just that. i am a believer in appropriately designed CV joints when the engine and shaft angle cannot be made to be in line. Did i misrepresent my intent? Robert, The change of angle was also another  reason why I was interested in the cv joint configuration. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:06:56 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft                         Martin, a CV joint will allow for change of angle, although in doing so, it does complicate the setup and require other measures, such as the pillar and thrust bearings that have been discussed. Go to CV joints on Wikepedia and you will see different designs, which usaually go by the inventor's name. I don't think, for a 40 hp engine, you would need something really heavy, but for engines with 300 to 1000 hp, i like to use the Double Cardan joint of the complete Double Candan Shaft. I have seen them used on setups from 16 to 2000 hp. Used in lots of cars --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 5:06 PM I thought that with cv joints it allowed you with an easier alignent that is the reason why I was interested in cv joints but if you still need a precise alignement, then why bother with those joints. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:46:43 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft                         I am not sure what you mean.   A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing.  If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints.  This arrangement takes the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see how that is really a problem.  In either arrangement, alignment should be well done.  I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft.    With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job unless you change something. Paul On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? > mauro >                                               [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29563|29531|2012-11-28 22:29:29|martin demers|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|Robert, No, I think you got your point. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:16:40 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 8:11 PM Martin, i am onboard with the change of angle that you need to effectively overcome. My intent, throughout this thread, has been to help you understand how to correctly do just that. i am a believer in appropriately designed CV joints when the engine and shaft angle cannot be made to be in line. Did i misrepresent my intent? Robert, The change of angle was also another reason why I was interested in the cv joint configuration. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: pha7env@... Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:06:56 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft Martin, a CV joint will allow for change of angle, although in doing so, it does complicate the setup and require other measures, such as the pillar and thrust bearings that have been discussed. Go to CV joints on Wikepedia and you will see different designs, which usaually go by the inventor's name. I don't think, for a 40 hp engine, you would need something really heavy, but for engines with 300 to 1000 hp, i like to use the Double Cardan joint of the complete Double Candan Shaft. I have seen them used on setups from 16 to 2000 hp. Used in lots of cars --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 5:06 PM I thought that with cv joints it allowed you with an easier alignent that is the reason why I was interested in cv joints but if you still need a precise alignement, then why bother with those joints. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: opusnz@... Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:46:43 +1300 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft I am not sure what you mean. A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing. If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints. This arrangement takes the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see how that is really a problem. In either arrangement, alignment should be well done. I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft. With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job unless you change something. Paul On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? > mauro > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29564|29544|2012-11-29 01:37:18|Kim|Re: Opus IV Relaunch|Great looking boat, Paul! Very nice. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Howdy, > > I finally relaunched Opus IV, my BS36 in New Plymouth, NZ yesterday > after a too long haulout. She needed a good repaint and tidy up after > originally launching in 1992. New Plymouth has no good haulout > facilities since it is mainly a deepsea port. I had to use a crane. > The pictures are pretty much self explanatory. The cradle lifted out > with the boat over the fence. The boat was set down, the crane > repositioned and then she was launched on the high tide. In total it > took about 2 hours. The crane operator said she was 10 tons but she had > less in her than before when the crane operator said she was 9 tons. I > am not sure what to make of that.... > > Pictures in the following link. There are some other sets of photos > of local indigenous boats I have taken in some of my travels. Although > unrelated, you might like them as well, . > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/88750525@N03/ > > Cheers, Paul | 29565|29544|2012-11-29 02:11:36|Paul Wilson|Re: Opus IV Relaunch|Thanks Kim, When I first launched her, I figured I built her for 20 years......at the time that seemed like forever but I am confident she will go another 20 now. Cheers, Paul On 29/11/2012 7:37 p.m., Kim wrote: > > > Great looking boat, Paul! Very nice. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Howdy, > > > > I finally relaunched Opus IV, my BS36 in New Plymouth, NZ yesterday > > after a too long haulout. She needed a good repaint and tidy up after > > originally launching in 1992. New Plymouth has no good haulout > > facilities since it is mainly a deepsea port. I had to use a crane. > > The pictures are pretty much self explanatory. The cradle lifted out > > with the boat over the fence. The boat was set down, the crane > > repositioned and then she was launched on the high tide. In total it > > took about 2 hours. The crane operator said she was 10 tons but she had > > less in her than before when the crane operator said she was 9 tons. I > > am not sure what to make of that.... > > > > Pictures in the following link. There are some other sets of photos > > of local indigenous boats I have taken in some of my travels. Although > > unrelated, you might like them as well, . > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/88750525@N03/ > > > > Cheers, Paul > > | 29566|29531|2012-11-29 02:43:59|mauro gonzaga|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|I didn't know we may rely on capacity of gearbox thrust bearing to cope with the propeller shaft thrust and vibrations. Thanks, Mauro ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:46 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft   I am not sure what you mean. A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing. If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints. This arrangement takes the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see how that is really a problem. In either arrangement, alignment should be well done. I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft. With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job unless you change something. Paul On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? > mauro > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29567|29531|2012-11-29 05:31:44|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|Usually even marine gear boxes for "leisure use" are well capable of working without the extra bearing, correct alignment provided together with "hard" engine-mounts and a proper outer bearing to avoid whipping/oscillation of the shaft, so definitely will do semi-comercial or comercial boxes for low output engines (up to about 100 kw). If changed to "particularly differing angel" (everything over 0.00 degrees) or way softer engine-mounts, an extra bearing is mandatory just to keep the shaft in place both axially and radially no matter how You get the power from crankshaft to propellershaft; no known stuffing box will survive soft engine mounts together with a directly flanged shaft, nor will any rubber-turning-seal work with particular shaft movement in any direction, not to mention a whipping movement. These are two different approaches to the technical outcome of enginepower-to-propeller via shaft (and retour, in terms of hard stopping). Am 29.11.2012 um 08:43 schrieb mauro gonzaga: > I didn't know we may rely on capacity of gearbox thrust bearing to cope with the propeller shaft thrust and vibrations. > Thanks, > > Mauro > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Wilson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:46 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > I am not sure what you mean. A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing. > If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take > the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints. This arrangement takes > the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see > how that is really a problem. In either arrangement, alignment should > be well done. I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft. > With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job > unless you change something. Paul > > On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And > > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox > > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? > > mauro > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29568|29531|2012-11-29 10:24:34|mkriley48|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|This is incorrect! thousands of production boats have the engine mounted at a angle and have only ONE cutlass bearing at the exit of the shaft at the propeller end and have a floating stuffing box clamped to a hose that is self aligning, the engine end being fixed by the bearing in the rear of the transmission. Generally this works well as evidenced by all the boats that have had this setup for decades without problems or attention. Can even use soft mounts as long as there is a reasonable limit of travel. Whats with this love of complexity? mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > Usually even marine gear boxes for "leisure use" are well capable of working without the extra bearing, correct alignment provided together with "hard" engine-mounts and a proper outer bearing to avoid whipping/oscillation of the shaft, so definitely will do semi-comercial or comercial boxes for low output engines (up to about 100 kw). > > If changed to "particularly differing angel" (everything over 0.00 degrees) or way softer engine-mounts, an extra bearing is mandatory just to keep the shaft in place both axially and radially no matter how You get the power from crankshaft to propellershaft; > no known stuffing box will survive soft engine mounts together with a directly flanged shaft, nor will any rubber-turning-seal work with particular shaft movement in any direction, not to mention a whipping movement. > > These are two different approaches to the technical outcome of enginepower-to-propeller via shaft (and retour, in terms of hard stopping). > > > > Am 29.11.2012 um 08:43 schrieb mauro gonzaga: > > > I didn't know we may rely on capacity of gearbox thrust bearing to cope with the propeller shaft thrust and vibrations. > > Thanks, > > > > Mauro > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Paul Wilson > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:46 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > I am not sure what you mean. A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing. > > If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take > > the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints. This arrangement takes > > the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see > > how that is really a problem. In either arrangement, alignment should > > be well done. I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft. > > With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job > > unless you change something. Paul > > > > On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And > > > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox > > > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? > > > mauro > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29569|29531|2012-11-29 11:04:34|martin demers|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|Mike, Would you have a photo or a reference for that kind of installation? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mkriley48@... Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 15:24:30 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft This is incorrect! thousands of production boats have the engine mounted at a angle and have only ONE cutlass bearing at the exit of the shaft at the propeller end and have a floating stuffing box clamped to a hose that is self aligning, the engine end being fixed by the bearing in the rear of the transmission. Generally this works well as evidenced by all the boats that have had this setup for decades without problems or attention. Can even use soft mounts as long as there is a reasonable limit of travel. Whats with this love of complexity? mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > Usually even marine gear boxes for "leisure use" are well capable of working without the extra bearing, correct alignment provided together with "hard" engine-mounts and a proper outer bearing to avoid whipping/oscillation of the shaft, so definitely will do semi-comercial or comercial boxes for low output engines (up to about 100 kw). > > If changed to "particularly differing angel" (everything over 0.00 degrees) or way softer engine-mounts, an extra bearing is mandatory just to keep the shaft in place both axially and radially no matter how You get the power from crankshaft to propellershaft; > no known stuffing box will survive soft engine mounts together with a directly flanged shaft, nor will any rubber-turning-seal work with particular shaft movement in any direction, not to mention a whipping movement. > > These are two different approaches to the technical outcome of enginepower-to-propeller via shaft (and retour, in terms of hard stopping). > > > > Am 29.11.2012 um 08:43 schrieb mauro gonzaga: > > > I didn't know we may rely on capacity of gearbox thrust bearing to cope with the propeller shaft thrust and vibrations. > > Thanks, > > > > Mauro > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Paul Wilson > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:46 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > I am not sure what you mean. A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing. > > If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take > > the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints. This arrangement takes > > the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see > > how that is really a problem. In either arrangement, alignment should > > be well done. I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft. > > With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job > > unless you change something. Paul > > > > On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And > > > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox > > > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? > > > mauro > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29570|29570|2012-11-29 11:32:20|richard.barwell@talk21.com|flopper-stopper, drogue/steering|It struck me the other day that devices to reduce rolling in anchorages (flopper stoppers as Eric Hiscock christened his) and devices to produce drag to keep a boat on its heading (drogues) have a lot in common. Has anyone experimented with using part of the length of a serial drogue hung off, say, a spinnaker pole swung from amidships, as a roll damper in an otherwise rolly anchorage? What got me thinking about this was being reminded of an ex-skippers look of terror when he realised we'd have to actually reverse his Nicholson 32 out of a marina; it was pretty much unsteerable in reverse, mostly we anchored out anyway. I remember wondering if it would be possible to 'kedge' off a bucket tied on and held some distance overboard, to hook the stern around. When I tried it (not on his boat,) the bottom ripped out of the bucket, leaving me with something that reminded me of a serial drogue. Has anyone ever heard of anyone using a drogue payed over the side to steer in conditions where the rudder is ineffective? Like a steering brake, on a tracked vehicle. Drogues always seem like they should have more than one use, considering how rarely anyone hopes to use for their designed task. Probably a daft idea... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29571|29570|2012-11-29 12:35:26|Matt Malone|Re: flopper-stopper, drogue/steering|Thank you for starting a new thread with interesting questions. I have used the bucket and vertical fender idea on the tip of my boom to damp roll. It made the rig noisy but it did help. I imagine that a drogue on a brindle would provide some ability to steer, provided one was sailing downwind. I have decided a few months and may posts ago, I like the yuloh, the Chinese single oar propulsion system. It seems it could operate as an emergency rudder as well as emergency propulsion. http://www.simplicityboats.com/yulohpage.html All it needs is a mount on the stern and a pad eye on the aft deck/in the cockpit somewhere forward of that to attach the down rope. Mounted on the beam, it would seem to provide some damping to roll as well. For general emergency use, I would keep a couple of 2x4s, and a few pieces of 2'x4' plywood on board -- so many emergency uses, including covering holes, broken windows, bracing, and manufacturing a rudder. Also, as there is a story of an unexplained failure of the connection between the tiller and rudder on a boat of the same design as mine, I have pad eyes I am installing on the trailing edge of the rudder, so that I can pull it to one side or the other with lines, like reins. Seems like a good thing for all rudders to have. (While my boat is on the hard, of course I am inspecting and where possible, beefing up the tiller-to-rudder structure to find/cure the flaw if it exists on my boat.) All of these options seem better than drogue steering however if one is going to have a drogue out anyway, one might as well have it on a bridle to help trim pointing. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 16:32:17 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] flopper-stopper, drogue/steering It struck me the other day that devices to reduce rolling in anchorages (flopper stoppers as Eric Hiscock christened his) and devices to produce drag to keep a boat on its heading (drogues) have a lot in common. Has anyone experimented with using part of the length of a serial drogue hung off, say, a spinnaker pole swung from amidships, as a roll damper in an otherwise rolly anchorage? What got me thinking about this was being reminded of an ex-skippers look of terror when he realised we'd have to actually reverse his Nicholson 32 out of a marina; it was pretty much unsteerable in reverse, mostly we anchored out anyway. I remember wondering if it would be possible to 'kedge' off a bucket tied on and held some distance overboard, to hook the stern around. When I tried it (not on his boat,) the bottom ripped out of the bucket, leaving me with something that reminded me of a serial drogue. Has anyone ever heard of anyone using a drogue payed over the side to steer in conditions where the rudder is ineffective? Like a steering brake, on a tracked vehicle. Drogues always seem like they should have more than one use, considering how rarely anyone hopes to use for their designed task. Probably a daft idea... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29572|29531|2012-11-29 12:56:03|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|... once partly payed my bills renewing the stuffin', nicely deducted per hour. More than one engine, ambitiously hung in slabby condom-slings or, even better, put on advanced high-end soft oil-dampened three-zones huupsy ultimate wonderwand feet freshly from the boat-show, "just to get rid of the noise, ya know, man", brought us slim bilge fish great fun and helped easily paying all the tools we sunk on Heineken .... The "self-aligning" hose-version (which does not align itself, it helps with vibrations, though, while it won't take any loads) works just fine with a properly aligned engine, mounted on real engine mounts, and with the shaft supported on two points: 1.) the built-in bivalent bearing of the gearbox and 2.) one more radial bearing of any kind as far away from the box as possible (usually end of tubular, or in an extra V before prop). This was the configuration You were indicating, I suppose, cheap and trustworthy, even seaworthy, as long as the shaft can't escape under any circumstances. This sort of config (two well defined bearings as distant as possible with a "soft" or "adaptive" stuffing in between, that is) prevents the shaft from whipping, which would be particularly increased if You either cantilever the shaft or/and give it an extra momentum with poor aligning or/and suffer loss of the proper local definition of the gearboxbearing by using inappropriate chewinggum mounts. And when it comes to production yachts: production yachts do have "solutions" of some sorts in them You wouldn't even consider to buy if You knew. No pro fisherman would consider going outside the slip with this sort of craftsmanship, not to mention outside a harbour. Am 29.11.2012 um 16:24 schrieb mkriley48: > This is incorrect! thousands of production boats have the engine mounted at a angle and have only ONE cutlass bearing at the exit of the shaft at the propeller end and have a floating stuffing box clamped to a hose that is self aligning, the engine end being fixed by the bearing in the rear of the transmission. Generally this works well as evidenced by all the boats that have had this setup for decades without problems or attention. > Whats with this love of complexity? > mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > > Usually even marine gear boxes for "leisure use" are well capable of working without the extra bearing, correct alignment provided together with "hard" engine-mounts and a proper outer bearing to avoid whipping/oscillation of the shaft, so definitely will do semi-comercial or comercial boxes for low output engines (up to about 100 kw). > > > > If changed to "particularly differing angel" (everything over 0.00 degrees) or way softer engine-mounts, an extra bearing is mandatory just to keep the shaft in place both axially and radially no matter how You get the power from crankshaft to propellershaft; > > no known stuffing box will survive soft engine mounts together with a directly flanged shaft, nor will any rubber-turning-seal work with particular shaft movement in any direction, not to mention a whipping movement. > > > > These are two different approaches to the technical outcome of enginepower-to-propeller via shaft (and retour, in terms of hard stopping). > > > > > > > > Am 29.11.2012 um 08:43 schrieb mauro gonzaga: > > > > > I didn't know we may rely on capacity of gearbox thrust bearing to cope with the propeller shaft thrust and vibrations. > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Mauro > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Paul Wilson > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:46 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure what you mean. A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing. > > > If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take > > > the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints. This arrangement takes > > > the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see > > > how that is really a problem. In either arrangement, alignment should > > > be well done. I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft. > > > With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job > > > unless you change something. Paul > > > > > > On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And > > > > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox > > > > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? > > > > mauro > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29573|29570|2012-11-29 13:10:06|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: flopper-stopper, drogue/steering|Yes, I like yulohs too. Using it as a roll damper would involve mounting it rigidly to a side deck, angled into the water? I would imagine it would stress and snap there. Also, it's lateral area may not add significantly to what your keel(s) already give. But then I might be misunderstanding how you mean it being used. Definitely a good idea to use it as a rudder/ sweep-steer in harbour, I've seen a few Frenchmen and Cornishmen do that well, but not in a blow; that didn't go so well. The drougue/ bucket steering idea was really just for close quarters stuff where you know you might lose steerage, maybe using it to swing the boat around at the last minute, in case you drifted off your intended path while trying to pick up a mooring buoy or something. It might allow you to steer and pick up the buoy singlehanded, from the foredeck. It wouldn't be practical to sail into somewhere with it boomed out on both sides, though. Maybe just have it ready to drop off either side amidships, one section cleated off the port bow, one off the starboard. Using it to steer at normal speeds could be disastrous, like a beam trawler which looses the boom on one side; wrecked gear and an abrupt broach, banged heads... Rein steering sounds sensible, maybe keep the ropes on there and rig up a whip-staff for steering indoors, bypassing the tiller and adding something that gets used in a non-emergency too. What is your boat? Apparently, sizing static roll dampers is important; some power boaters use them, and someone somewhere once suggested that if they are too big, they can capsize the boat. Maybe overstating it, but I'm guessing it's an idea that would benefit from some fine tuning, if it's going to get used much. ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2012, 17:35 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] flopper-stopper, drogue/steering Thank you for starting a new thread with interesting questions.  I have used the bucket and vertical fender idea on the tip of my boom to damp roll.    It made the rig noisy but it did help.  I imagine that a drogue on a brindle would provide some ability to steer, provided one was sailing downwind.    I have decided a few months and may posts ago, I like the yuloh, the Chinese single oar propulsion system.  It seems it could operate as an emergency rudder as well as emergency propulsion.    http://www.simplicityboats.com/yulohpage.html All it needs is a mount on the stern and a pad eye on the aft deck/in the cockpit somewhere forward of that to attach the down rope.  Mounted on the beam, it would seem to provide some damping to roll as well.  For general emergency use,  I would keep a couple of 2x4s, and a few pieces of 2'x4' plywood on board -- so many emergency uses, including covering holes, broken windows, bracing, and manufacturing a rudder.    Also, as there is a story of an unexplained failure of the connection between the tiller and rudder on a boat of the same design as mine, I have pad eyes I am installing on the trailing edge of the rudder, so that I can pull it to one side or the other with lines, like reins.  Seems like a good thing for all rudders to have.  (While my boat is on the hard, of course I am inspecting and where possible, beefing up the tiller-to-rudder structure to find/cure the flaw if it exists on my boat.) All of these options seem better than drogue steering however if one is going to have a drogue out anyway, one might as well have it on a bridle to help trim pointing. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 16:32:17 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] flopper-stopper, drogue/steering                         It struck me the other day that devices to reduce rolling in anchorages (flopper stoppers as Eric Hiscock christened his) and devices to produce drag to keep a boat on its heading (drogues) have a lot in common. Has anyone experimented with using part of the length of a serial drogue hung off, say, a spinnaker pole swung from amidships, as a roll damper in an otherwise rolly anchorage? What got me thinking about this was being reminded of an ex-skippers look of terror when he realised we'd have to actually reverse his Nicholson 32 out of a marina; it was pretty much unsteerable in reverse, mostly we anchored out anyway. I remember wondering if it would be possible to 'kedge' off a bucket tied on and held some distance overboard, to hook the stern around. When I tried it (not on his boat,) the bottom ripped out of the bucket, leaving me with something that reminded me of a serial drogue. Has anyone ever heard of anyone using a drogue payed over the side to steer in conditions where the rudder is ineffective? Like a steering brake, on a tracked vehicle. Drogues always seem like they should have more than one use, considering how rarely anyone hopes to use for their designed task. Probably a daft idea... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29574|29570|2012-11-29 13:44:52|Paul Wilson|Re: flopper-stopper, drogue/steering|I have heard of people using a drogue on a spinnaker pole, pivoting astern on an adjustable bridle to sheet winches for emergency steering. I have hung a 22 pound danforth anchor on the end of the spinnaker pole as a flopper stopper on several occasions. I rig it with a bridle to hang flat and it definitely makes a difference in the roll. A bucket will help if it is strong enough but you will need something heavy to pull it down on the down stroke. I found it quick and easy to use the anchor which was normally rigged as a stern hook on a hose reel. I just hooked up the bridle and unreeled some of chain....there is no need to take it off. Cheers, Paul On 30/11/2012 5:32 a.m., richard.barwell@... wrote: > > It struck me the other day that devices to reduce rolling in > anchorages (flopper stoppers as Eric Hiscock christened his) and > devices to produce drag to keep a boat on its heading (drogues) have a > lot in common. Has anyone experimented with using part of the length > of a serial drogue hung off, say, a spinnaker pole swung from > amidships, as a roll damper in an otherwise rolly anchorage? > What got me thinking about this was being reminded of an ex-skippers > look of terror when he realised we'd have to actually reverse his > Nicholson 32 out of a marina; it was pretty much unsteerable in > reverse, mostly we anchored out anyway. I remember wondering if it > would be possible to 'kedge' off a bucket tied on and held some > distance overboard, to hook the stern around. When I tried it (not on > his boat,) the bottom ripped out of the bucket, leaving me with > something that reminded me of a serial drogue. > Has anyone ever heard of anyone using a drogue payed over the side to > steer in conditions where the rudder is ineffective? Like a steering > brake, on a tracked vehicle. Drogues always seem like they should have > more than one use, considering how rarely anyone hopes to use for > their designed task. Probably a daft idea... > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 29575|29570|2012-11-29 14:23:33|Matt Malone|Re: flopper-stopper, drogue/steering|If I mounted a yuloh off the beam, it would just be a long, flexible vane what would loose a lot of energy into the water. It might be good to give the boat some counter-roll in advance of the hull roll, if the waves are closely spaced. There I might mount it upside down so it is just below and parallel to the surface. Or I might stab it deep to dip into undisturbed water further down than the keel. It would just be a long pole that is meant to be flexible, that I might experiment with. It would be cheaper to replace than a spinnaker pole should my experimentation fail badly. One thing I have come to appreciate is, every rolly situation is a little different because of wind, pointing, anchoring scope, wave direction and span from crest to crest. What works well in one situation needs tuning to work well in another. Anything one puts over the side to change the roll of the boat has the potential in some circumstances to make things worse, and maybe the deck gets swamped... capsized though ? That would have to be one powerful / strong roll damper with a better grip on the water than the boat. But people do all sorts of things. For instance, I sometimes put out a line straight down off the stern with some chain on a shallow sandy bottom to limit the swinging of the boat on a bow anchor. It also helps damp out porpoising though some chain in the rode on the bow works better to calm porpoising. Someone who uses zero scope on a line off the beam to ground tackle / length of chain on the bottom that snags might cause the boat to roll itself using the bouyancy of the boat on a swell. Again, that would have to be strong line, and it would have to snag pretty solid to capsize a boat. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 18:10:03 +0000 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] flopper-stopper, drogue/steering Yes, I like yulohs too. Using it as a roll damper would involve mounting it rigidly to a side deck, angled into the water? I would imagine it would stress and snap there. Also, it's lateral area may not add significantly to what your keel(s) already give. But then I might be misunderstanding how you mean it being used. Definitely a good idea to use it as a rudder/ sweep-steer in harbour, I've seen a few Frenchmen and Cornishmen do that well, but not in a blow; that didn't go so well. The drougue/ bucket steering idea was really just for close quarters stuff where you know you might lose steerage, maybe using it to swing the boat around at the last minute, in case you drifted off your intended path while trying to pick up a mooring buoy or something. It might allow you to steer and pick up the buoy singlehanded, from the foredeck. It wouldn't be practical to sail into somewhere with it boomed out on both sides, though. Maybe just have it ready to drop off either side amidships, one section cleated off the port bow, one off the starboard. Using it to steer at normal speeds could be disastrous, like a beam trawler which looses the boom on one side; wrecked gear and an abrupt broach, banged heads... Rein steering sounds sensible, maybe keep the ropes on there and rig up a whip-staff for steering indoors, bypassing the tiller and adding something that gets used in a non-emergency too. What is your boat? Apparently, sizing static roll dampers is important; some power boaters use them, and someone somewhere once suggested that if they are too big, they can capsize the boat. Maybe overstating it, but I'm guessing it's an idea that would benefit from some fine tuning, if it's going to get used much. ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2012, 17:35 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] flopper-stopper, drogue/steering Thank you for starting a new thread with interesting questions. I have used the bucket and vertical fender idea on the tip of my boom to damp roll. It made the rig noisy but it did help. I imagine that a drogue on a brindle would provide some ability to steer, provided one was sailing downwind. I have decided a few months and may posts ago, I like the yuloh, the Chinese single oar propulsion system. It seems it could operate as an emergency rudder as well as emergency propulsion. http://www.simplicityboats.com/yulohpage.html All it needs is a mount on the stern and a pad eye on the aft deck/in the cockpit somewhere forward of that to attach the down rope. Mounted on the beam, it would seem to provide some damping to roll as well. For general emergency use, I would keep a couple of 2x4s, and a few pieces of 2'x4' plywood on board -- so many emergency uses, including covering holes, broken windows, bracing, and manufacturing a rudder. Also, as there is a story of an unexplained failure of the connection between the tiller and rudder on a boat of the same design as mine, I have pad eyes I am installing on the trailing edge of the rudder, so that I can pull it to one side or the other with lines, like reins. Seems like a good thing for all rudders to have. (While my boat is on the hard, of course I am inspecting and where possible, beefing up the tiller-to-rudder structure to find/cure the flaw if it exists on my boat.) All of these options seem better than drogue steering however if one is going to have a drogue out anyway, one might as well have it on a bridle to help trim pointing. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: richard.barwell@... Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 16:32:17 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] flopper-stopper, drogue/steering It struck me the other day that devices to reduce rolling in anchorages (flopper stoppers as Eric Hiscock christened his) and devices to produce drag to keep a boat on its heading (drogues) have a lot in common. Has anyone experimented with using part of the length of a serial drogue hung off, say, a spinnaker pole swung from amidships, as a roll damper in an otherwise rolly anchorage? What got me thinking about this was being reminded of an ex-skippers look of terror when he realised we'd have to actually reverse his Nicholson 32 out of a marina; it was pretty much unsteerable in reverse, mostly we anchored out anyway. I remember wondering if it would be possible to 'kedge' off a bucket tied on and held some distance overboard, to hook the stern around. When I tried it (not on his boat,) the bottom ripped out of the bucket, leaving me with something that reminded me of a serial drogue. Has anyone ever heard of anyone using a drogue payed over the side to steer in conditions where the rudder is ineffective? Like a steering brake, on a tracked vehicle. Drogues always seem like they should have more than one use, considering how rarely anyone hopes to use for their designed task. Probably a daft idea... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29576|29531|2012-11-29 15:01:09|Paul Thompson|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|Just do what Brent has always advised. Bolt it down solidly. Align properly once and there after you can essentially for get about it. Even with my little three cylinder Mitsubishi vibration is minimal. Of cause you do need solid engine beds. I used 6mm plate for mine and put in 8mm doublers where the engine mounting bolts go. Paul Thompson On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 6:55 AM, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > ... once partly payed my bills renewing the stuffin', nicely deducted per hour. > > More than one engine, ambitiously hung in slabby condom-slings or, even better, put on advanced high-end soft oil-dampened three-zones huupsy ultimate wonderwand feet freshly from the boat-show, "just to get rid of the noise, ya know, man", brought us slim bilge fish great fun and helped easily paying all the tools we sunk on Heineken .... > > The "self-aligning" hose-version (which does not align itself, it helps with vibrations, though, while it won't take any loads) works just fine with a properly aligned engine, mounted on real engine mounts, and with the shaft supported on two points: > 1.) the built-in bivalent bearing of the gearbox and > 2.) one more radial bearing of any kind as far away from the box as possible (usually end of tubular, or in an extra V before prop). > > This was the configuration You were indicating, I suppose, cheap and trustworthy, even seaworthy, as long as the shaft can't escape under any circumstances. > > This sort of config (two well defined bearings as distant as possible with a "soft" or "adaptive" stuffing in between, that is) prevents the shaft from whipping, which would be particularly increased if You either cantilever the shaft or/and give it an extra momentum with poor aligning or/and suffer loss of the proper local definition of the gearboxbearing by using inappropriate chewinggum mounts. > > > > And when it comes to production yachts: production yachts do have "solutions" of some sorts in them You wouldn't even consider to buy if You knew. > No pro fisherman would consider going outside the slip with this sort of craftsmanship, not to mention outside a harbour. > > > > > Am 29.11.2012 um 16:24 schrieb mkriley48: > >> This is incorrect! thousands of production boats have the engine mounted at a angle and have only ONE cutlass bearing at the exit of the shaft at the propeller end and have a floating stuffing box clamped to a hose that is self aligning, the engine end being fixed by the bearing in the rear of the transmission. Generally this works well as evidenced by all the boats that have had this setup for decades without problems or attention. >> Whats with this love of complexity? >> mike >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: >> > >> > Usually even marine gear boxes for "leisure use" are well capable of working without the extra bearing, correct alignment provided together with "hard" engine-mounts and a proper outer bearing to avoid whipping/oscillation of the shaft, so definitely will do semi-comercial or comercial boxes for low output engines (up to about 100 kw). >> > >> > If changed to "particularly differing angel" (everything over 0.00 degrees) or way softer engine-mounts, an extra bearing is mandatory just to keep the shaft in place both axially and radially no matter how You get the power from crankshaft to propellershaft; >> > no known stuffing box will survive soft engine mounts together with a directly flanged shaft, nor will any rubber-turning-seal work with particular shaft movement in any direction, not to mention a whipping movement. >> > >> > These are two different approaches to the technical outcome of enginepower-to-propeller via shaft (and retour, in terms of hard stopping). >> > >> > >> > >> > Am 29.11.2012 um 08:43 schrieb mauro gonzaga: >> > >> > > I didn't know we may rely on capacity of gearbox thrust bearing to cope with the propeller shaft thrust and vibrations. >> > > Thanks, >> > > >> > > Mauro >> > > >> > > ________________________________ >> > > From: Paul Wilson >> > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:46 AM >> > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > I am not sure what you mean. A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing. >> > > If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take >> > > the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints. This arrangement takes >> > > the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see >> > > how that is really a problem. In either arrangement, alignment should >> > > be well done. I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft. >> > > With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job >> > > unless you change something. Paul >> > > >> > > On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: >> > > > >> > > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And >> > > > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox >> > > > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? >> > > > mauro >> > > > >> > > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson| 29577|29570|2012-11-29 15:50:10|Kim|Re: flopper-stopper, drogue/steering|Hi Richard ... There's an Australian-made product called a "Seabrake" (made by Burke Sails in Sydney), that claims to do all the things you mentioned: http://www.burkemarine.com.au/product.php?prod_id=73 Primarily it's a drogue; but can also be used as a flopper-stopper and emergency steering device. I don't own a Seabrake myself. Nor have I ever used one. But I know a couple of people who do own them, and they think they're great! As a drogue it's apparently extremely effective (particularly for crossing bars). I've been told that as a flopper-stopper they're awesome. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > It struck me the other day that devices to reduce rolling in anchorages (flopper stoppers as Eric Hiscock christened his) and devices to produce drag to keep a boat on its heading (drogues) have a lot in common. Has anyone experimented with using part of the length of a serial drogue hung off, say, a spinnaker pole swung from amidships, as a roll damper in an otherwise rolly anchorage? > What got me thinking about this was being reminded of an ex-skippers look of terror when he realised we'd have to actually reverse his Nicholson 32 out of a marina; it was pretty much unsteerable in reverse, mostly we anchored out anyway. I remember wondering if it would be possible to 'kedge' off a bucket tied on and held some distance overboard, to hook the stern around. When I tried it (not on his boat,) the bottom ripped out of the bucket, leaving me with something that reminded me of a serial drogue. > Has anyone ever heard of anyone using a drogue payed over the side to steer in conditions where the rudder is ineffective? Like a steering brake, on a tracked vehicle. Drogues always seem like they should have more than one use, considering how rarely anyone hopes to use for their designed task. Probably a daft idea... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29578|29570|2012-11-29 16:17:43|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: flopper-stopper, drogue/steering|Thanks Kim, at least it proves I'm not going mad! It mentions you can use it as a 'stabilizer under way'. I wonder how, without hobbling the boat, speed wise. Also, as a drogue,this would be a 'single speed' device; it doesn't give you the option of reducing the retardation to ease strain on the boat, although whether that would actually be doable anyway is questionable, I suppose.  If someone could invent a way of retrieving or partially retrieving a drogue (especially serial drogue) in a hurry without having to go on deck, that would be great. To my mind, these would be best deployed off the bow, so your rudder is steering in water that's not trying to overtake you, but they seem to be bridled to the stern. There must be a reason why. Being bridled, you can't just keep it on a capstan and winch it in when you feel a need to, say if the wind shifts 90 degrees, and you find yourself beam on to the seas. Could be nasty. ________________________________ From: Kim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2012, 20:50 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flopper-stopper, drogue/steering Hi Richard ... There's an Australian-made product called a "Seabrake" (made by Burke Sails in Sydney), that claims to do all the things you mentioned: http://www.burkemarine.com.au/product.php?prod_id=73 Primarily it's a drogue; but can also be used as a flopper-stopper and emergency steering device. I don't own a Seabrake myself. Nor have I ever used one. But I know a couple of people who do own them, and they think they're great! As a drogue it's apparently extremely effective (particularly for crossing bars). I've been told that as a flopper-stopper they're awesome. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > It struck me the other day that devices to reduce rolling in anchorages (flopper stoppers as Eric Hiscock christened his) and devices to produce drag to keep a boat on its heading (drogues) have a lot in common. Has anyone experimented with using part of the length of a serial drogue hung off, say, a spinnaker pole swung from amidships, as a roll damper in an otherwise rolly anchorage? > What got me thinking about this was being reminded of an ex-skippers look of terror when he realised we'd have to actually reverse his Nicholson 32 out of a marina; it was pretty much unsteerable in reverse, mostly we anchored out anyway. I remember wondering if it would be possible to 'kedge' off a bucket tied on and held some distance overboard, to hook the stern around. When I tried it (not on his boat,) the bottom ripped out of the bucket, leaving me with something that reminded me of a serial drogue. > Has anyone ever heard of anyone using a drogue payed over the side to steer in conditions where the rudder is ineffective? Like a steering brake, on a tracked vehicle. Drogues always seem like they should have more than one use, considering how rarely anyone hopes to use for their designed task. Probably a daft idea... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29579|29570|2012-11-29 16:33:55|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: flopper-stopper, drogue/steering|I take some of that back, just watched this video.http://www.seateach.com/Seabrake.htm It suggests that you can set it to provide drag only after it reaches a speed that you determine yourself.  Later is says it starts to apply 'significant' drag at 2-3 knots, and has optimum drag at a vessel speed of 7 knots. Seems to steer well too, although that's only a promo video, so its not definitive. Looks good though. ________________________________ From: Kim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2012, 20:50 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flopper-stopper, drogue/steering Hi Richard ... There's an Australian-made product called a "Seabrake" (made by Burke Sails in Sydney), that claims to do all the things you mentioned: http://www.burkemarine.com.au/product.php?prod_id=73 Primarily it's a drogue; but can also be used as a flopper-stopper and emergency steering device. I don't own a Seabrake myself. Nor have I ever used one. But I know a couple of people who do own them, and they think they're great! As a drogue it's apparently extremely effective (particularly for crossing bars). I've been told that as a flopper-stopper they're awesome. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > It struck me the other day that devices to reduce rolling in anchorages (flopper stoppers as Eric Hiscock christened his) and devices to produce drag to keep a boat on its heading (drogues) have a lot in common. Has anyone experimented with using part of the length of a serial drogue hung off, say, a spinnaker pole swung from amidships, as a roll damper in an otherwise rolly anchorage? > What got me thinking about this was being reminded of an ex-skippers look of terror when he realised we'd have to actually reverse his Nicholson 32 out of a marina; it was pretty much unsteerable in reverse, mostly we anchored out anyway. I remember wondering if it would be possible to 'kedge' off a bucket tied on and held some distance overboard, to hook the stern around. When I tried it (not on his boat,) the bottom ripped out of the bucket, leaving me with something that reminded me of a serial drogue. > Has anyone ever heard of anyone using a drogue payed over the side to steer in conditions where the rudder is ineffective? Like a steering brake, on a tracked vehicle. Drogues always seem like they should have more than one use, considering how rarely anyone hopes to use for their designed task. Probably a daft idea... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29580|29531|2012-11-29 17:08:54|mkriley48|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|any old pearson or bristol, allied, old columbias tartan 27, pretty much any sailboat that does not need a strut. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Mike, > Would you have a photo or a reference for that kind of installation? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mkriley48@... > Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 15:24:30 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is incorrect! thousands of production boats have the engine mounted at a angle and have only ONE cutlass bearing at the exit of the shaft at the propeller end and have a floating stuffing box clamped to a hose that is self aligning, the engine end being fixed by the bearing in the rear of the transmission. Generally this works well as evidenced by all the boats that have had this setup for decades without problems or attention. Can even use soft mounts as long as there is a reasonable limit of travel. > > Whats with this love of complexity? > > mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > > > > Usually even marine gear boxes for "leisure use" are well capable of working without the extra bearing, correct alignment provided together with "hard" engine-mounts and a proper outer bearing to avoid whipping/oscillation of the shaft, so definitely will do semi-comercial or comercial boxes for low output engines (up to about 100 kw). > > > > > > If changed to "particularly differing angel" (everything over 0.00 degrees) or way softer engine-mounts, an extra bearing is mandatory just to keep the shaft in place both axially and radially no matter how You get the power from crankshaft to propellershaft; > > > no known stuffing box will survive soft engine mounts together with a directly flanged shaft, nor will any rubber-turning-seal work with particular shaft movement in any direction, not to mention a whipping movement. > > > > > > These are two different approaches to the technical outcome of enginepower-to-propeller via shaft (and retour, in terms of hard stopping). > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 29.11.2012 um 08:43 schrieb mauro gonzaga: > > > > > > > I didn't know we may rely on capacity of gearbox thrust bearing to cope with the propeller shaft thrust and vibrations. > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Mauro > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Paul Wilson > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:46 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure what you mean. A normal gearbox has a thrust bearing. > > > > If you use CV joints you have to mount and install another one to take > > > > the thrust load from the prop off the CV joints. This arrangement takes > > > > the thrust load off the gearbox/engine and it's mounts but I don't see > > > > how that is really a problem. In either arrangement, alignment should > > > > be well done. I align everything within 3 mil on a straight shaft. > > > > With a steel boat it shouldn't change so it is usually a one off job > > > > unless you change something. Paul > > > > > > > > On 29/11/2012 12:00 p.m., mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > > > > > No thrust bearing? You mean that gearbox would sustain the thrust? And > > > > > alignment shall be very well done and stable otherwise the gearbox > > > > > bearing and maybe gear would wear easy. Is it not? > > > > > mauro > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29581|29570|2012-11-29 19:51:15|Kim|Re: flopper-stopper, drogue/steering|Yes, Richard, apparently one of the Seabrake's special advantages/features as a drogue is that below a certain speed it does nothing. A great design feature IMHO! It only starts working when the speed rises above a certain point. So there's little to no drag in wave troughs (where the boat usually doesn't need to be slowed down); but it kicks in heavily as the boat starts to fall down the face of a wave. These characteristics are what makes it so useful when crossing rough bars (of which there are pleanty on the east coast of Austrlia!). I guess those same characteristics are what makes the Seabrake work so well as a flopper-stopper. It uses a trip-line for retrieval. I understand that for almost all monohull yacht designs, drogues should be deployed from the stern. If deployed from the bow the boat will inevitibly end up beam-on to the sea. Brent has suggested that, in an anchorage, even anchoring by the stern will immediately stop his designs shearing about their anchor. Silas Crosby, the first of Brent's designs to round Cape Horn from east to west (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/27900), uses a Jordan Series drogue with much success. Steve, Silas Crosby's skipper, has posted a great video depicting the deployment of his drogue here: http://vimeo.com/23557335 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/25849). Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > I take some of that back, just watched this video.http://www.seateach.com/Seabrake.htm > It suggests that you can set it to provide drag only after it reaches a speed that you determine yourself.  Later is says it starts to apply 'significant' drag at 2-3 knots, and has optimum drag at a vessel speed of 7 knots. Seems to steer well too, although that's only a promo video, so its not definitive. Looks good though. > ________________________________ > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@... wrote: > > Thanks Kim, at least it proves I'm not going mad! It mentions you can use it as a 'stabilizer under way'. I wonder how, without hobbling the boat, speed wise. Also, as a drogue,this would be a 'single speed' device; it doesn't give you the option of reducing the retardation to ease strain on the boat, although whether that would actually be doable anyway is questionable, I suppose. > > > If someone could invent a way of retrieving or partially retrieving a drogue (especially serial drogue) in a hurry without having to go on deck, that would be great. To my mind, these would be best deployed off the bow, so your rudder is steering in water that's not trying to overtake you, but they seem to be bridled to the stern. There must be a reason why. Being bridled, you can't just keep it on a capstan and winch it in when you feel a need to, say if the wind shifts 90 degrees, and you find yourself beam on to the seas. Could be nasty. > > ________________________________ > From: Kim > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2012, 20:50 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flopper-stopper, drogue/steering > > > Hi Richard ... > > There's an Australian-made product called a "Seabrake" (made by Burke Sails in Sydney), that claims to do all the things you mentioned: > > http://www.burkemarine.com.au/product.php?prod_id=73 > > Primarily it's a drogue; but can also be used as a flopper-stopper and emergency steering device. > > I don't own a Seabrake myself. Nor have I ever used one. But I know a couple of people who do own them, and they think they're great! As a drogue it's apparently extremely effective (particularly for crossing bars). I've been told that as a flopper-stopper they're awesome. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, richard.barwell@ wrote: > > > > It struck me the other day that devices to reduce rolling in anchorages (flopper stoppers as Eric Hiscock christened his) and devices to produce drag to keep a boat on its heading (drogues) have a lot in common. Has anyone experimented with using part of the length of a serial drogue hung off, say, a spinnaker pole swung from amidships, as a roll damper in an otherwise rolly anchorage? > > What got me thinking about this was being reminded of an ex-skippers look of terror when he realised we'd have to actually reverse his Nicholson 32 out of a marina; it was pretty much unsteerable in reverse, mostly we anchored out anyway. I remember wondering if it would be possible to 'kedge' off a bucket tied on and held some distance overboard, to hook the stern around. When I tried it (not on his boat,) the bottom ripped out of the bucket, leaving me with something that reminded me of a serial drogue. > > Has anyone ever heard of anyone using a drogue payed over the side to steer in conditions where the rudder is ineffective? Like a steering brake, on a tracked vehicle. Drogues always seem like they should have more than one use, considering how rarely anyone hopes to use for their designed task. Probably a daft idea... > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29582|29531|2012-11-29 20:21:52|Mark Hamill|Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft|If the aim is to give oneself a bit of leeway in the coupling tolerances--didn't Brent mention that he made a unit out of breadboard that mimicked one of the commercial units and has used it for years with no problems?? Oh and our mechanic at the boat charter company could line up a 50 hp engine on factory new boats in 15 minutes to an hour depending on all the variables. The big power boats that were new to the fleet obviously took longer but even though 10 years old they had obviously never been in alignment. If a boat hit something with its prop one of the first things they checked was the engine mounts. He said it was not unusual for all four to separate. This includes abrupt stops due to line around the prop. MarkH| 29583|29544|2012-12-02 08:59:39|steve|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Paul , I understand that Opus IV was on the hard in New Plymouth for a while. How was the bottom when you hauled? Specifically what was the state of the epoxy barrier coat , under the antifouling. For the first time since I launched Silas Crosby in 1993 I have just hauled out into a normal yard here in Puerto Montt, Chile (about 5000 miles east of you I guess at 41 S) and have the luxury of some time to really have a good look at the bottom. About 1 1/2 years ago I did a quick winter haulout in Valdivia, Chile, but it was too cold for any epoxy work. At the moment there are about 30 or 40 blisters in the epoxy that are 1 to 3cms diameter. When they are unroofed, water drains out; the steel is clean , uncorroded and looks like it is freshly blasted. Before I hauled,I was thinking that it was time for a proper blast job and re-coating , but now my plan is to just clean up the blisters, paint each one with epoxy , feather the edges, antifoul , and relaunch in about a month. The initial bottom coating in '93 was done on a hot July day in Comox after sandblasting. Devoe 235 "bar rust" and then 2 more coats of another devoe epoxy , followed by antifouling. (Devoe is now Ameron). Over the last 3 days I have been able to scrape off about 75% of the multiple layers of old antifouling with a regular paint scraper, remarkably without damaging the epoxy barrier coats much. I guess some of the forum readers might be interested in these details about boats that have been used hard for 20 years. Are you heading over this way? Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Howdy, > > I finally relaunched Opus IV, my BS36 in New Plymouth, NZ yesterday > after a too long haulout. She needed a good repaint and tidy up after > originally launching in 1992. New Plymouth has no good haulout > facilities since it is mainly a deepsea port. I had to use a crane. > The pictures are pretty much self explanatory. The cradle lifted out > with the boat over the fence. The boat was set down, the crane > repositioned and then she was launched on the high tide. In total it > took about 2 hours. The crane operator said she was 10 tons but she had > less in her than before when the crane operator said she was 9 tons. I > am not sure what to make of that.... > > Pictures in the following link. There are some other sets of photos > of local indigenous boats I have taken in some of my travels. Although > unrelated, you might like them as well, . > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/88750525@N03/ > > Cheers, Paul > | 29584|29544|2012-12-02 09:50:57|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|I'd suppose the epo wouldn't get anytime since 1993 only near the temperatures it was initially applied in? One can hardly overestimate this weather-induced casual "tempering by chance" as the particular improvement of results with cold-hardening non-industrial epoxy, originally formulated for at least rudimentary reaction already under pretty "low" temperatures. While I'd also suppose You did an extraordinary meticulous job in terms of building up even layers with no discontinuities in the steadily educed homogeneous films. Am 02.12.2012 um 14:59 schrieb steve: > The initial bottom coating in '93 was done on a hot July day in Comox after sandblasting. Devoe 235 "bar rust" and then 2 more coats of another devoe epoxy , followed by antifouling. (Devoe is now Ameron) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29585|29544|2012-12-02 15:51:08|Paul Wilson|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Hey Steve, I thought my boat was a special case but you seem to have had the same problem..... I launched in 1992 so probably blasted in 1988? Boat was sandblasted to white metal with Devoe 235 just like you. My wheel abrade coating had failed due to a screw-up by the applicator. I only used an inorganic zinc primer down to the waterline so the 235 was right on to the sandblasted steel. The sandblasting media was copper slag rather than silica grit. This was recommended at the time. About 2 years after being in the water I noticed small blisters about the size of the end of a pencil on the bottom. They seemed to be worse near the zincs but eventually covered most of the boat. I had two large zincs installed near the prop. There were no blisters at all on the rudder or trim tab, which had no zincs. I fought with the blisters for years. The steel itself had zero corrosion. In fact, you could still see the sandblast pattern in the bare spots. I had plastic (Marelon) thru hulls and my zincs would seem to last forever.....4 or 5 years. I took one zinc off and this seemed to slow the blisters. By this time, I was in Fiji and unable to due a proper haulout. I ended up doing a quick and dirt sandblast using beach sand (not good!) and overcoating with Intertuf (vinyl tar) paint which was compatible with any paint left behind by the poor blast job. Things were OK but not great for 6 or so years. I sailed to NZ and then did a long overdue sandblast down to bare metal all over the bottom. Here is my theory...... I think the blisters were caused by electrolysis living in the marina in Vancouver for two years. This was probably caused by not having my boat electrically isolated with an isolation transformer at the dock. This may have been aggravated by being "over zinced". With too much cathodic protection, it is possible to blow paint off a surface. I found this out many years later after marrying a pipeline engineer :). They use electrical cathodic protection on pipelines and if they turn it up too high, it can blow off the coating and cause blisters. One clue I had that this was the problem is that my rudder and trim tab which were isolated through the rudder bushings never got blisters. Someone told me once that I shouldn't have blasted using copper slag. It was highly recommended at the time but since the rudder and trim tab were OK, I doubt this was really the problem. I am hoping that with only enough zinc on the boat to last a year or two, a good paint job and always using an isolation transformer if at a powered dock, I have no further problems. I have no plans to come to Chile just yet.....I love the heat and find NZ kind of cold so when I go offshore again it will probably be a wimpy trip to Tonga or Tahiti. I would love to spend a cyclone season in Vavau. Good luck with the paint job. Your problem doesn't sound nearly as serious as mine was. I wouldn't sand blast if it was only 30 or 40 blisters....there are some clear runny two pack epoxies for marginal prep work that are very good. They bind in to old paint and seem to penetrate right in to the steel. Both Ameron and Altex (Carboline) have one. It is what they recommend when you paint after a high pressure wet blast. They are very runny so 1 liter goes a long way. http://ppgamercoatau.ppgpmc.com/docs/products/Amerlock%20Sealer0906.pdf http://www.carboline.com/products/product-brands/products-by-brand/product-details/?brand=Rustbond&product=0922 Cheers, Paul On 3/12/2012 2:59 a.m., steve wrote: > Paul , I understand that Opus IV was on the hard in New Plymouth for a > while. How was the bottom when you hauled? Specifically what was the > state of the epoxy barrier coat , under the antifouling. > For the first time since I launched Silas Crosby in 1993 I have just > hauled out into a normal yard here in Puerto Montt, Chile (about 5000 > miles east of you I guess at 41 S) and have the luxury of some time to > really have a good look at the bottom. > About 1 1/2 years ago I did a quick winter haulout in Valdivia, Chile, > but it was too cold for any epoxy work. > At the moment there are about 30 or 40 blisters in the epoxy that are > 1 to 3cms diameter. When they are unroofed, water drains out; the > steel is clean , uncorroded and looks like it is freshly blasted. > Before I hauled,I was thinking that it was time for a proper blast job > and re-coating , but now my plan is to just clean up the blisters, > paint each one with epoxy , feather the edges, antifoul , and relaunch > in about a month. > The initial bottom coating in '93 was done on a hot July day in Comox > after sandblasting. Devoe 235 "bar rust" and then 2 more coats of > another devoe epoxy , followed by antifouling. (Devoe is now Ameron). > Over the last 3 days I have been able to scrape off about 75% of the > multiple layers of old antifouling with a regular paint scraper, > remarkably without damaging the epoxy barrier coats much. > > I guess some of the forum readers might be interested in these details > about boats that have been used hard for 20 years. > > Are you heading over this way? > Steve | 29586|29544|2012-12-02 16:28:45|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Hi Paul That sounds like a very interesting piece of information. Is there any site/place to read particularly more about this blowing off the coat by an electrical overdose in terms of cathodic protection? And how environmental influences change the whole picture? Despite having been the plastic-man these days (nutshells or dry ice versus osmosis), I saw some steel hulls with local blisters and cavities and wasn't sure about poor epo-quality or poor craftsmanship/technology, so the zinc would have probably been an explanation for our findings of more cavities around the aft (propeller and ruddershaft neighbouring). Sometimes we assumed the waterquality might have it's part with the tendency to show indistinct blowholes (the Adriatic as a mere chemical pond, compared to the clear blue Thyrrenian side...), but I didn't find a sufficiently coherent explanation to date. I'd appreciate any hint. Regards G_B Am 02.12.2012 um 21:47 schrieb Paul Wilson: > With too much > cathodic protection, it is possible to blow paint off a surface. I > found this out many years later after marrying a pipeline engineer :). > They use electrical cathodic protection on pipelines and if they turn it > up too high, it can blow off the coating and cause blisters. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29587|29544|2012-12-02 16:38:09|steve|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Paul , thanks for the detailed reply. That's good information. Regarding zincs, the black art. I have had 6 " zincs , one on each side of the web forward of the rudder skeg, either bolted or welded , depending on availability of welder. No zincs actually on the hull itself. One smaller zinc either welded to the bottom of the rudder or bolted to one of the trimtab gudgeons just under the water (again depending on welder) (Haidan, i know what you are thinking!)And finally a donut zinc on the prop shaft. In total 2 x 6" zincs , 1 x 4" zinc (rudder), and the shaft zinc. The shaft zinc is changed every 6 months , and the others every 1 1/2 to 2 years. I never did install shore power on the boat , because it scared me. My through-hulls are the scrapyard SS ball valves on SS welded nipples. I will let you know when I sink. Actually there is only one 1 1/2" valve and one 1/2" valve in the whole boat , but I guess it only takes one hole to sink the boat. I have one other huge hole in the bottom. An underwater window of 12 mm acrylic. I am replacing it for the first time on this haulout. Spending the cyclone season in Tonga would be great. A couple of boats were putting down big moorings in Neiafu when we were there. I saw a video of Neiafu harbour in a storm. It always amazes me that a real tempest can occur in a teapot. Actually one of the boats, if I remember correctly ,was Gungha from Victoria. They are still in Opua doing charters 25 years later , on a bigger boat ,same name. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hey Steve, > > I thought my boat was a special case but you seem to have had the same > problem..... > > I launched in 1992 so probably blasted in 1988? Boat was sandblasted to > white metal with Devoe 235 just like you. My wheel abrade coating had > failed due to a screw-up by the applicator. I only used an inorganic > zinc primer down to the waterline so the 235 was right on to the > sandblasted steel. The sandblasting media was copper slag rather than > silica grit. This was recommended at the time. > > About 2 years after being in the water I noticed small blisters about > the size of the end of a pencil on the bottom. They seemed to be worse > near the zincs but eventually covered most of the boat. I had two large > zincs installed near the prop. There were no blisters at all on the > rudder or trim tab, which had no zincs. I fought with the blisters for > years. The steel itself had zero corrosion. In fact, you could still > see the sandblast pattern in the bare spots. I had plastic (Marelon) > thru hulls and my zincs would seem to last forever.....4 or 5 years. I > took one zinc off and this seemed to slow the blisters. By this time, I > was in Fiji and unable to due a proper haulout. I ended up doing a > quick and dirt sandblast using beach sand (not good!) and overcoating > with Intertuf (vinyl tar) paint which was compatible with any paint left > behind by the poor blast job. Things were OK but not great for 6 or so > years. > > I sailed to NZ and then did a long overdue sandblast down to bare metal > all over the bottom. > > Here is my theory...... > > I think the blisters were caused by electrolysis living in the marina in > Vancouver for two years. This was probably caused by not having my > boat electrically isolated with an isolation transformer at the dock. > This may have been aggravated by being "over zinced". With too much > cathodic protection, it is possible to blow paint off a surface. I > found this out many years later after marrying a pipeline engineer :). > They use electrical cathodic protection on pipelines and if they turn it > up too high, it can blow off the coating and cause blisters. One clue > I had that this was the problem is that my rudder and trim tab which > were isolated through the rudder bushings never got blisters. Someone > told me once that I shouldn't have blasted using copper slag. It was > highly recommended at the time but since the rudder and trim tab were > OK, I doubt this was really the problem. > > I am hoping that with only enough zinc on the boat to last a year or > two, a good paint job and always using an isolation transformer if at a > powered dock, I have no further problems. > > I have no plans to come to Chile just yet.....I love the heat and find > NZ kind of cold so when I go offshore again it will probably be a wimpy > trip to Tonga or Tahiti. I would love to spend a cyclone season in > Vavau. > > Good luck with the paint job. Your problem doesn't sound nearly as > serious as mine was. I wouldn't sand blast if it was only 30 or 40 > blisters....there are some clear runny two pack epoxies for marginal > prep work that are very good. They bind in to old paint and seem to > penetrate right in to the steel. Both Ameron and Altex (Carboline) > have one. It is what they recommend when you paint after a high > pressure wet blast. They are very runny so 1 liter goes a long way. > > http://ppgamercoatau.ppgpmc.com/docs/products/Amerlock%20Sealer0906.pdf > > http://www.carboline.com/products/product-brands/products-by-brand/product-details/?brand=Rustbond&product=0922 > > > Cheers, Paul > > > On 3/12/2012 2:59 a.m., steve wrote: > > Paul , I understand that Opus IV was on the hard in New Plymouth for a > > while. How was the bottom when you hauled? Specifically what was the > > state of the epoxy barrier coat , under the antifouling. > > For the first time since I launched Silas Crosby in 1993 I have just > > hauled out into a normal yard here in Puerto Montt, Chile (about 5000 > > miles east of you I guess at 41 S) and have the luxury of some time to > > really have a good look at the bottom. > > About 1 1/2 years ago I did a quick winter haulout in Valdivia, Chile, > > but it was too cold for any epoxy work. > > At the moment there are about 30 or 40 blisters in the epoxy that are > > 1 to 3cms diameter. When they are unroofed, water drains out; the > > steel is clean , uncorroded and looks like it is freshly blasted. > > Before I hauled,I was thinking that it was time for a proper blast job > > and re-coating , but now my plan is to just clean up the blisters, > > paint each one with epoxy , feather the edges, antifoul , and relaunch > > in about a month. > > The initial bottom coating in '93 was done on a hot July day in Comox > > after sandblasting. Devoe 235 "bar rust" and then 2 more coats of > > another devoe epoxy , followed by antifouling. (Devoe is now Ameron). > > Over the last 3 days I have been able to scrape off about 75% of the > > multiple layers of old antifouling with a regular paint scraper, > > remarkably without damaging the epoxy barrier coats much. > > > > I guess some of the forum readers might be interested in these details > > about boats that have been used hard for 20 years. > > > > Are you heading over this way? > > Steve > | 29588|29544|2012-12-02 17:22:34|Paul Wilson|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Wow, I remember Gungha in Tahiti when I was crewing on a boat there in 1982. I know of Gungha in Opua but didn't realize it was the same people. I will look them up. Your zincs are about the same set-up that I have right now. I will monitor them and see how they go and trim as necessary.... Cheers, Paul On 3/12/2012 10:38 a.m., steve wrote: > > Paul , thanks for the detailed reply. That's good information. > > Regarding zincs, the black art. > I have had 6 " zincs , one on each side of the web forward of the > rudder skeg, either bolted or welded , depending on availability of > welder. No zincs actually on the hull itself. One smaller zinc either > welded to the bottom of the rudder or bolted to one of the trimtab > gudgeons just under the water (again depending on welder) (Haidan, i > know what you are thinking!)And finally a donut zinc on the prop shaft. > In total 2 x 6" zincs , 1 x 4" zinc (rudder), and the shaft zinc. The > shaft zinc is changed every 6 months , and the others every 1 1/2 to 2 > years. > > I never did install shore power on the boat , because it scared me. > > My through-hulls are the scrapyard SS ball valves on SS welded > nipples. I will let you know when I sink. Actually there is only one 1 > 1/2" valve and one 1/2" valve in the whole boat , but I guess it only > takes one hole to sink the boat. > > I have one other huge hole in the bottom. An underwater window of 12 > mm acrylic. I am replacing it for the first time on this haulout. > > Spending the cyclone season in Tonga would be great. A couple of boats > were putting down big moorings in Neiafu when we were there. I saw a > video of Neiafu harbour in a storm. It always amazes me that a real > tempest can occur in a teapot. Actually one of the boats, if I > remember correctly ,was Gungha from Victoria. They are still in Opua > doing charters 25 years later , on a bigger boat ,same name. > | 29589|29544|2012-12-02 17:39:40|Paul Wilson|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Hi Giuseppe..... I asked my wife and she said the technical term is cathodic disbondment. I had a quick look and this came up....hopefully it helps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection#Cathodic_Disbonding http://www.bushman.cc/pdf/corrosion_theory.pdf Cheers, Paul On 3/12/2012 10:28 a.m., Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > Hi Paul > > That sounds like a very interesting piece of information. > > Is there any site/place to read particularly more about this blowing > off the coat by > an electrical overdose in terms of cathodic protection? > > And how environmental influences change the whole picture? > > Despite having been the plastic-man these days (nutshells or dry ice > versus osmosis), > I saw some steel hulls with local blisters and cavities and wasn't > sure about poor epo-quality > or poor craftsmanship/technology, so the zinc would have probably been > an explanation for > our findings of more cavities around the aft (propeller and > ruddershaft neighbouring). > > Sometimes we assumed the waterquality might have it's part with the > tendency to show indistinct blowholes > (the Adriatic as a mere chemical pond, compared to the clear blue > Thyrrenian side...), but I didn't find a > sufficiently coherent explanation to date. > > I'd appreciate any hint. > > Regards G_B > > Am 02.12.2012 um 21:47 schrieb Paul Wilson: > > > With too much > > cathodic protection, it is possible to blow paint off a surface. I > > found this out many years later after marrying a pipeline engineer :). > > They use electrical cathodic protection on pipelines and if they > turn it > > up too high, it can blow off the coating and cause blisters. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 29590|29590|2012-12-02 18:54:57|wild_explorer|Water desalination|http://www.watercones.com/ Good idea for device to make fresh water from sea water (for survival). Pros: Simple, easy to replicate. Cons: Requires sun lite, Water output is small (1-1.5L a day), large diameter (~32"/0.8m).| 29591|29544|2012-12-02 19:08:29|wild_explorer|Re: Opus IV Relaunch|Paul, I have noticed on the picture that your boat has a propeller on the trailing edge of the keel. Seems like propeller's shaft has pretty big angle from horizontal. Did you put engine inside the keel? Or do you have another setup (electric motor, etc)? > > Pictures in the following link. There are some other sets of photos > of local indigenous boats I have taken in some of my travels. Although > unrelated, you might like them as well, . > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/88750525@N03/ > > Cheers, Paul > | 29592|29544|2012-12-02 19:20:07|Paul Wilson|Re: Opus IV Relaunch|It is a normal engine (Isuzu 3KR1 35 hp) under a counter with double sinks overtop. If I remember right the angle is just under 15 degrees with 15 degrees being about the max angle recommended. I think ZF (Hurth) and others have a gearbox with a down angle to it so the engine would be almost horizontal but mine is just a straight version. Cheers, Paul On 3/12/2012 1:08 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Paul, I have noticed on the picture that your boat has a propeller on > the trailing edge of the keel. Seems like propeller's shaft has pretty > big angle from horizontal. > > Did you put engine inside the keel? Or do you have another setup > (electric motor, etc)? > > > > > Pictures in the following link. There are some other sets of photos > > of local indigenous boats I have taken in some of my travels. Although > > unrelated, you might like them as well, . > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/88750525@N03/ > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > | 29593|29590|2012-12-02 19:34:16|Paul Wilson|Re: Water desalination|Steve Callahan use a solar still similar to these surviving on a liferaft for 76 days on the Atlantic. He had a lot of trouble with salt contamination since they needed to be kept level. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Callahan His book is quite good. Cheers, Paul On 3/12/2012 12:54 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > http://www.watercones.com/ > > Good idea for device to make fresh water from sea water (for survival). > > Pros: Simple, easy to replicate. > > Cons: Requires sun lite, Water output is small (1-1.5L a day), large > diameter (~32"/0.8m). > > | 29594|29544|2012-12-02 20:56:57|wild_explorer|Re: Opus IV Relaunch|Thanks for a clarification Paul. I saw some transmissions which have output shaft with 8 deg downward angle (relation to input shaft). But most transmissions just have offset output shafts (usually down in horizontal direction to input shaft). What is advantage to have a prop behind trailing edge of the keel (beside less resistance for 2-blade prop fixed inline with a keel when not in use and better protection from elements)? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > It is a normal engine (Isuzu 3KR1 35 hp) under a counter with double > sinks overtop. If I remember right the angle is just under 15 degrees > with 15 degrees being about the max angle recommended. I think ZF > (Hurth) and others have a gearbox with a down angle to it so the engine > would be almost horizontal but mine is just a straight version. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 3/12/2012 1:08 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > Paul, I have noticed on the picture that your boat has a propeller on > > the trailing edge of the keel. Seems like propeller's shaft has pretty > > big angle from horizontal. > > > > Did you put engine inside the keel? Or do you have another setup > > (electric motor, etc)? > > > > > > > > Pictures in the following link. There are some other sets of photos > > > of local indigenous boats I have taken in some of my travels. Although > > > unrelated, you might like them as well, . > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/88750525@N03/ > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > | 29595|29544|2012-12-02 21:08:48|Paul Wilson|Re: Opus IV Relaunch|On 3/12/2012 2:56 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > What is advantage to have a prop behind trailing edge of the keel > (beside less resistance for 2-blade prop fixed inline with a keel when > not in use and better protection from elements)? The weight is more centered and it gave me a really nice U-shaped galley with center-line sinks which is great when underway. When the counter flips up, I get great engine access. The big disadvantage is when backing up, I don't get any prop wash over the rudder. With the large skeg, it is unpredictable which way it will go and seems to have a mind of it's own. Cheers, Paul| 29596|29590|2012-12-02 21:19:02|wild_explorer|Re: Water desalination|Yep, it is need to be level (original device). For marine use, it could be accomplished by suspending the device and having weight at the bottom or making the bottom "cone shaped" instead of flat. Higher "edge" will help to hold distilled water more securely and avoid contamination by sea water. Draining distilled water "from holding edge" by small tube, will help to stabilize such device too. Just an idea.... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Steve Callahan use a solar still similar to these surviving on a > liferaft for 76 days on the Atlantic. He had a lot of trouble with salt > contamination since they needed to be kept level. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Callahan > > His book is quite good. Cheers, Paul > > On 3/12/2012 12:54 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > http://www.watercones.com/ > > > > Good idea for device to make fresh water from sea water (for survival). > > > > Pros: Simple, easy to replicate. > > > > Cons: Requires sun lite, Water output is small (1-1.5L a day), large > > diameter (~32"/0.8m). > > > > > | 29597|29590|2012-12-03 08:03:27|richard.barwell@talk21.com|Re: Water desalination|There's a book by a chap called 'Neuemeyer' I think, called 'Sailing the Farm' which details building roll up solar stills with black felt to soak up and hold the seawater, and help keep it separate form the distillate. Designed to store in a cockpit locker and stand at an angle on a sunny side deck. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29598|29544|2012-12-03 10:34:54|haidan|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Actually Steve, I'm more curious about the state of the flame-spray zinc underneath the epoxy, I imagine you're going to re apply some zinc primer over your newly ground spots?| 29599|29544|2012-12-03 14:13:35|steve|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Haidan , the flamespraying was done only down to the waterline , not under. The advice was that it would cause a LOT of blistering if you flamesprayed under the water.A friend did flamespray under the water and he ended up blasting it off a few years later, because of widespread blistering. Above the water , and on deck where the paint gets chipped by flying hard things the zinc looks a lot like zinc and it doesn't end up bubbling or spreading rust even if i don't do anything about it for months. I'm just going to apply a bit of epoxy primer to the ground out spots, maybe a couple of coats or more. But it is raining today. So I am on the computer. You would be interested in the state of the rudder bearings after 20 years and thousands of miles. They don't actually need replacing, but I will since it is so cheap for the plastic hose barb nipples. I was surprised. There was a bit of 'clunking' from the rudder for the past year , but it is just some minor wear. Also the cutless bearing , after 5000+ hours is still OK with almost no play at all. I wonder if the grease nipple installation in the stern tube has prolonged the cutless life. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Actually Steve, I'm more curious about the state of the flame-spray zinc underneath the epoxy, I imagine you're going to re apply some zinc primer over your newly ground spots? > | 29600|29590|2012-12-03 21:02:39|Robert Jones|Re: Water desalination|can also be done with tarp or anything to make the sealed cone that will let the water that is condensing, run down the sides, instead of drip back down in the raw water.  --- On Sun, 12/2/12, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Water desalination To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, December 2, 2012, 5:23 PM Steve Callahan use a solar still similar to these surviving on a liferaft for 76 days on the Atlantic. He had a lot of trouble with salt contamination since they needed to be kept level. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Callahan His book is quite good. Cheers, Paul On 3/12/2012 12:54 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > http://www.watercones.com/ > > Good idea for device to make fresh water from sea water (for survival). > > Pros: Simple, easy to replicate. > > Cons: Requires sun lite, Water output is small (1-1.5L a day), large > diameter (~32"/0.8m). > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29601|29121|2012-12-03 23:38:55|Kim|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|Just for the sake of completeness ... Matt, and anyone else who might still be interested in this old story ... Last weekend (1st December), one of our national newspapers ("The Australian") did a fairly in-depth article about the disabled Aussie yacht that was found off the Australian east coast by a low-flying Air Canada plane last October: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/ey-of-the-storm/story-e6frg8h6-1226525810081 If they put up a "paywall" to the story by the time you click it, I've put a PDF copy of the full article here: http://tinyurl.com/Canadian-Rescue Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > Follow up story with a telephone interview with the skipper. > > http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/sailor_grateful_to_air_canada_crew_that_aided_in_rescue/e1b7f953 > > He was near the coast, and was hit by a storm. > Went more out to sea to get better conditions. > Conditions worsened. > He was rolled and dismasted 9 days ago. > After the storm abated, it took him 2 days to put the boat in order. > He believed he was possibly 120 miles from shore. > He sailed under jury rig for some days. > He did not know his position. > After 9 days, he could not see the 'loom' of Sydney, glow in the distance at night I would guess. > He set of his eprib. > He was actually about 500km from Sydney, and, if I know my winds, about down-wind of Sydney > > Given that he did not know his position, one would have to guess his primary navigation system and radio was damaged in the roll-over, his handheld GPS was damaged, and his sextant was damaged, or possibly as a coastal sailor, he had no sextant. If he had known his position, at least he would have known he was not making headway toward land I guess, or, he might have steered for a downwind location. It is likely if he was a coastal sailor he did not carry provisions for that, or, the provisions were damaged also. > > He was in the position he was in. We can only take lessons from it. > > Matt > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > I read that story earlier in the day. It is only fitting, the Australians have been the ones to come to everyone else's aid in the Southern Ocean. > > The story was not completely clear but it sounds like he had been dismasted a while ago and was trying some self recovery for some time before requesting help. One never knows the details of each situation. I can barely go an entire weekend working on the boat without realizing I do not have something I need and having to go to the store. Still, putting some thought to jury rigging before it is necessary could not hurt. I have tried to raise a 20 foot mast on a dingy on a lake and had 40 times the trouble as on dry land (40 minutes vs one minute). I have also tried raising timbers for various reasons and over 12 feet it becomes far more interesting. Then again, perhaps he lost all his sails along with their furlers. It would be tough leaving a boat that is not sinking, but you have no way to control. > > Kim if there is a local story with more details, I would be interested in reading it. > > Matt > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > Completely off-topic; but ... > > Looks like you Canadians are now getting involved in rescuing dismasted Aussie sailors off the Australian coast: > > http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/10/16/air-canada-australia-rescue-sailor.html > > :-) > > Cheers ... > > Kim. _____________________________________ | 29602|29121|2012-12-04 01:32:16|Aaron|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|Kim Thank you for sharing this story. WOW! Aaron ________________________________ From: Kim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 7:38 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!   Just for the sake of completeness ... Matt, and anyone else who might still be interested in this old story ... Last weekend (1st December), one of our national newspapers ("The Australian") did a fairly in-depth article about the disabled Aussie yacht that was found off the Australian east coast by a low-flying Air Canada plane last October: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/ey-of-the-storm/story-e6frg8h6-1226525810081 If they put up a "paywall" to the story by the time you click it, I've put a PDF copy of the full article here: http://tinyurl.com/Canadian-Rescue Cheers ... Kim. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > Follow up story with a telephone interview with the skipper. > > http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/sailor_grateful_to_air_canada_crew_that_aided_in_rescue/e1b7f953 > > He was near the coast, and was hit by a storm. > Went more out to sea to get better conditions. > Conditions worsened. > He was rolled and dismasted 9 days ago. > After the storm abated, it took him 2 days to put the boat in order. > He believed he was possibly 120 miles from shore. > He sailed under jury rig for some days. > He did not know his position. > After 9 days, he could not see the 'loom' of Sydney, glow in the distance at night I would guess. > He set of his eprib. > He was actually about 500km from Sydney, and, if I know my winds, about down-wind of Sydney > > Given that he did not know his position, one would have to guess his primary navigation system and radio was damaged in the roll-over, his handheld GPS was damaged, and his sextant was damaged, or possibly as a coastal sailor, he had no sextant. If he had known his position, at least he would have known he was not making headway toward land I guess, or, he might have steered for a downwind location. It is likely if he was a coastal sailor he did not carry provisions for that, or, the provisions were damaged also. > > He was in the position he was in. We can only take lessons from it. > > Matt > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > I read that story earlier in the day. It is only fitting, the Australians have been the ones to come to everyone else's aid in the Southern Ocean. > > The story was not completely clear but it sounds like he had been dismasted a while ago and was trying some self recovery for some time before requesting help. One never knows the details of each situation. I can barely go an entire weekend working on the boat without realizing I do not have something I need and having to go to the store. Still, putting some thought to jury rigging before it is necessary could not hurt. I have tried to raise a 20 foot mast on a dingy on a lake and had 40 times the trouble as on dry land (40 minutes vs one minute). I have also tried raising timbers for various reasons and over 12 feet it becomes far more interesting. Then again, perhaps he lost all his sails along with their furlers. It would be tough leaving a boat that is not sinking, but you have no way to control. > > Kim if there is a local story with more details, I would be interested in reading it. > > Matt > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > Completely off-topic; but ... > > Looks like you Canadians are now getting involved in rescuing dismasted Aussie sailors off the Australian coast: > > http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/10/16/air-canada-australia-rescue-sailor.html > > :-) > > Cheers ... > > Kim. _____________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29603|29121|2012-12-04 01:42:10|Matt Malone|Re: Canadians rescuing Australians!|Thank you Kim. Slammed upside down. Wow. I find it amazing that a piece of his mast could be broken by waves when it was lashed to the deck. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: kimdxx@... Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 04:38:52 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Canadians rescuing Australians! Just for the sake of completeness ... Matt, and anyone else who might still be interested in this old story ... Last weekend (1st December), one of our national newspapers ("The Australian") did a fairly in-depth article about the disabled Aussie yacht that was found off the Australian east coast by a low-flying Air Canada plane last October: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/ey-of-the-storm/story-e6frg8h6-1226525810081 If they put up a "paywall" to the story by the time you click it, I've put a PDF copy of the full article here: http://tinyurl.com/Canadian-Rescue Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > Follow up story with a telephone interview with the skipper. > > http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/sailor_grateful_to_air_canada_crew_that_aided_in_rescue/e1b7f953 > > He was near the coast, and was hit by a storm. > Went more out to sea to get better conditions. > Conditions worsened. > He was rolled and dismasted 9 days ago. > After the storm abated, it took him 2 days to put the boat in order. > He believed he was possibly 120 miles from shore. > He sailed under jury rig for some days. > He did not know his position. > After 9 days, he could not see the 'loom' of Sydney, glow in the distance at night I would guess. > He set of his eprib. > He was actually about 500km from Sydney, and, if I know my winds, about down-wind of Sydney > > Given that he did not know his position, one would have to guess his primary navigation system and radio was damaged in the roll-over, his handheld GPS was damaged, and his sextant was damaged, or possibly as a coastal sailor, he had no sextant. If he had known his position, at least he would have known he was not making headway toward land I guess, or, he might have steered for a downwind location. It is likely if he was a coastal sailor he did not carry provisions for that, or, the provisions were damaged also. > > He was in the position he was in. We can only take lessons from it. > > Matt > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > I read that story earlier in the day. It is only fitting, the Australians have been the ones to come to everyone else's aid in the Southern Ocean. > > The story was not completely clear but it sounds like he had been dismasted a while ago and was trying some self recovery for some time before requesting help. One never knows the details of each situation. I can barely go an entire weekend working on the boat without realizing I do not have something I need and having to go to the store. Still, putting some thought to jury rigging before it is necessary could not hurt. I have tried to raise a 20 foot mast on a dingy on a lake and had 40 times the trouble as on dry land (40 minutes vs one minute). I have also tried raising timbers for various reasons and over 12 feet it becomes far more interesting. Then again, perhaps he lost all his sails along with their furlers. It would be tough leaving a boat that is not sinking, but you have no way to control. > > Kim if there is a local story with more details, I would be interested in reading it. > > Matt > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > Completely off-topic; but ... > > Looks like you Canadians are now getting involved in rescuing dismasted Aussie sailors off the Australian coast: > > http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/10/16/air-canada-australia-rescue-sailor.html > > :-) > > Cheers ... > > Kim. _____________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29604|29544|2012-12-04 10:55:29|haidan|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Well that is interesting, my rudder bearings are I think in need of replacement, I have to to do a general check over sometime at low tide and see, there's just a little more slop than I'd like. I wonder whether maybe I used some sort of inferior cheap hose barb? or maybe the near daily sandy beach exposure wore it prematurely.| 29605|29605|2012-12-04 19:48:58|Kim|Plastic hose barbs and rudder bearings.|Steve and Haidan (or anyone) ... In recent messages you've both mentioned that you used plastic hose barbs as part of the rudder bearings in your boats. By plastic hose barbs do you mean this sort of thing: http://www.part-ontools.co.uk/index.php?sec=prod&prod=680 http://www.fastfittings.com/plastic-adapter-male I'm probably just having a seniors moment here; but I can't imagine how those things could be utilised as rudder bearings. Could someone describe this further? My rudder bearings were going to be simply stainless on stainless. That's what I've done in the past. Is that considered OK? Thanks! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Well that is interesting, my rudder bearings are I think in need of replacement, I have to to do a general check over sometime at low tide and see, there's just a little more slop than I'd like. I wonder whether maybe I used some sort of inferior cheap hose barb? or maybe the near daily sandy beach exposure wore it prematurely. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > You would be interested in the state of the rudder bearings after 20 years and thousands of miles. They don't actually need replacing, but I will since it is so cheap for the plastic hose barb nipples. I was surprised. There was a bit of 'clunking' from the rudder for the past year , but it is just some minor wear. ______________________________________________________________ | 29606|29605|2012-12-04 20:36:01|steve|Re: Plastic hose barbs and rudder bearings.|In the second photo, if you just cut off the right half, the hose barb part, and shove it into the gudgeon as a press fit , the SS pintle then goes in that. Maybe SS on SS would be just as good in such a low speed unloaded application. Probably more clunking and grinding though. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Steve and Haidan (or anyone) ... > > In recent messages you've both mentioned that you used plastic hose barbs as part of the rudder bearings in your boats. > > By plastic hose barbs do you mean this sort of thing: > > http://www.part-ontools.co.uk/index.php?sec=prod&prod=680 > http://www.fastfittings.com/plastic-adapter-male > > I'm probably just having a seniors moment here; but I can't imagine how those things could be utilised as rudder bearings. > > Could someone describe this further? > > My rudder bearings were going to be simply stainless on stainless. That's what I've done in the past. Is that considered OK? > > Thanks! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > ______________________________________________________________ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > > > Well that is interesting, my rudder bearings are I think in need of replacement, I have to to do a general check over sometime at low tide and see, there's just a little more slop than I'd like. I wonder whether maybe I used some sort of inferior cheap hose barb? or maybe the near daily sandy beach exposure wore it prematurely. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > > > > You would be interested in the state of the rudder bearings after 20 years and thousands of miles. They don't actually need replacing, but I will since it is so cheap for the plastic hose barb nipples. I was surprised. There was a bit of 'clunking' from the rudder for the past year , but it is just some minor wear. > ______________________________________________________________ > | 29607|29605|2012-12-04 21:19:02|Paul Wilson|Re: Plastic hose barbs and rudder bearings.|I think there is lower friction with plastic without the need for any lube and it allows for a less than perfect alignment. If you slide them in with some gucky stuff and let them set alignment won't need to be absolutely perfect like it would need to be with SS on SS. Ideally you would use UHMWPE plastic but it would need to be machined from round stock. It is very tough, low friction like teflon and doesn't swell in water like nylon. After several years, a close fitting nylon bush can get so tight, you won't be able to turn a rudder without a lot of effort. I was on one boat and I thought I was going to break the tiller it was so tight. Re-machining the nylon bushes to allow for some slop eventually solved the problem. The beauty of using a hose tail or barb is they are very cheap compared to UHMWPE and easily replaced. I would try to stick with one of the soft but tough plastics that don't go brittle. I think they are grey or white and made from ABS or PVC??? Cheers, Paul| 29608|29605|2012-12-04 22:29:15|Kim|Re: Plastic hose barbs and rudder bearings.|Many thanks for your replies, Steve and Paul. How the plastic hose barbs are used as rudder bearings is so blindingly obvious now that you've described it! Makes me feel silly for having asked the question!! :-) In fact, it's a really excellent idea, and one that I'll use too. Thanks again! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I think there is lower friction with plastic without the need for any > lube and it allows for a less than perfect alignment. If you slide them > in with some gucky stuff and let them set alignment won't need to be > absolutely perfect like it would need to be with SS on SS. > > Ideally you would use UHMWPE plastic but it would need to be machined > from round stock. It is very tough, low friction like teflon and > doesn't swell in water like nylon. After several years, a close fitting > nylon bush can get so tight, you won't be able to turn a rudder without > a lot of effort. I was on one boat and I thought I was going to break > the tiller it was so tight. Re-machining the nylon bushes to allow for > some slop eventually solved the problem. > > The beauty of using a hose tail or barb is they are very cheap compared > to UHMWPE and easily replaced. I would try to stick with one of the > soft but tough plastics that don't go brittle. I think they are grey or > white and made from ABS or PVC??? > > Cheers, Paul --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > In the second photo, if you just cut off the right half, the hose barb part, and shove it into the gudgeon as a press fit , the SS pintle then goes in that. Maybe SS on SS would be just as good in such a low speed unloaded application. Probably more clunking and grinding though. > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > Steve and Haidan (or anyone) ... > > > > In recent messages you've both mentioned that you used plastic hose barbs as part of the rudder bearings in your boats. > > > > By plastic hose barbs do you mean this sort of thing: > > > > http://www.part-ontools.co.uk/index.php?sec=prod&prod=680 > > http://www.fastfittings.com/plastic-adapter-male > > > > I'm probably just having a seniors moment here; but I can't imagine how those things could be utilised as rudder bearings. > > > > Could someone describe this further? > > > > My rudder bearings were going to be simply stainless on stainless. That's what I've done in the past. Is that considered OK? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht > > ______________________________________________________________ > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > > > > > Well that is interesting, my rudder bearings are I think in need of replacement, I have to to do a general check over sometime at low tide and see, there's just a little more slop than I'd like. I wonder whether maybe I used some sort of inferior cheap hose barb? or maybe the near daily sandy beach exposure wore it prematurely. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > You would be interested in the state of the rudder bearings after 20 years and thousands of miles. They don't actually need replacing, but I will since it is so cheap for the plastic hose barb nipples. I was surprised. There was a bit of 'clunking' from the rudder for the past year , but it is just some minor wear. > > ______________________________________________________________ | 29609|29605|2012-12-05 10:08:11|Mark Hamill|Re: Plastic hose barbs and rudder bearings.|Many, many moons ago I made bearings for some home made rudder fitting and some home made blocks (later I just used oilite bearings on the blocks) out of West epoxy and West graphite powder as per their recommendations for low speed bearings. i was thinking about trying it on this boat if I can find the powder again--not sure it is worth the effort because of the need to center the pintles in the gudgeon holes--rather finicky and time consuming. Used a light coat of grease to keep items from sticking. I have also installed stainless grease nipples and used the red "waterproof" grease with no bearings. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29610|29610|2012-12-05 10:40:26|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|Pilothouse raised saloon|I have a new concern; if I install a raised saloon on a floor elevated of around 1 1/2 to 2 feet can it influence the balance of the boat (37ft steel)? The reason of the raised saloon is of course to see outside. Martin.| 29611|29605|2012-12-05 19:22:20|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Plastic hose barbs and rudder bearings.|Google “Moglice” Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: Mark Hamill Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 9:53 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Plastic hose barbs and rudder bearings. Many, many moons ago I made bearings for some home made rudder fitting and some home made blocks (later I just used oilite bearings on the blocks) out of West epoxy and West graphite powder as per their recommendations for low speed bearings. i was thinking about trying it on this boat if I can find the powder again--not sure it is worth the effort because of the need to center the pintles in the gudgeon holes--rather finicky and time consuming. Used a light coat of grease to keep items from sticking. I have also installed stainless grease nipples and used the red "waterproof" grease with no bearings. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29612|29590|2012-12-06 22:20:41|Pris|Re: Water desalination|Cool, some more info and links to add to my other ideas, thanks, gives me fun stuff to think about while I work on my boat. (A conventional RO unit isn't an option due to the power requirement.) This is a good idea, but needs to be stable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXjMAItCMl0 Another interesting idea with more control of the lens and no problem storing it, there is a video near the bottom of the page: http://americanpreppersnetwork.net/viewtopic.php?f=595&t=30440 When my boat is ready to sail I'll start designing gimbaled prototypes combining the above ideas with something like this, which is better than the open cone since the tube isolates the condensate from the source water preventing contamination: http://purifiedwater.blogsavy.com/home-distillation-of-water/ Neumeyer's idea sounds interesting, although I wonder about bacterial contamination, has anybody tried it? It will be a while before I have time to read his book.... I got "The Drag Device Data Base" today. :-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > http://www.watercones.com/ > > Good idea for device to make fresh water from sea water (for survival). > > Pros: Simple, easy to replicate. > > Cons: Requires sun lite, Water output is small (1-1.5L a day), large diameter (~32"/0.8m). > | 29613|29610|2012-12-06 22:24:20|brentswain38|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|Slightly, but probably not noticeably, unless you make the pilot house too long. The buoyancy in the pilot house when submerged, will greatly improve your ultimate stability, the equivalent of adding thousands of pounds to your keel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > I have a new concern; if I install a raised saloon on a floor elevated of around 1 1/2 to 2 feet can it influence the balance of the boat (37ft steel)? > > The reason of the raised saloon is of course to see outside. > > Martin. > | 29614|29544|2012-12-06 22:37:02|brentswain38|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Yes to much zinc definitely caused blisters, as does thinner entrapment. The later you can detect when you smell the strong aroma of thinner when you pop the blisters. No smell? Then its probably over zincing. I tried international "Epoxy cop" antifouling which is a hard , scrubbable, epoxy based antifouling. It doesn't scrub off when you scrub it, unlike ablative. Another advantage is you can lap your epoxy touch up paint onto it, and it doesn't lift it. In fact it sticks to epoxy cop like shit to a blanket , even in the prop wash. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hey Steve, > > I thought my boat was a special case but you seem to have had the same > problem..... > > I launched in 1992 so probably blasted in 1988? Boat was sandblasted to > white metal with Devoe 235 just like you. My wheel abrade coating had > failed due to a screw-up by the applicator. I only used an inorganic > zinc primer down to the waterline so the 235 was right on to the > sandblasted steel. The sandblasting media was copper slag rather than > silica grit. This was recommended at the time. > > About 2 years after being in the water I noticed small blisters about > the size of the end of a pencil on the bottom. They seemed to be worse > near the zincs but eventually covered most of the boat. I had two large > zincs installed near the prop. There were no blisters at all on the > rudder or trim tab, which had no zincs. I fought with the blisters for > years. The steel itself had zero corrosion. In fact, you could still > see the sandblast pattern in the bare spots. I had plastic (Marelon) > thru hulls and my zincs would seem to last forever.....4 or 5 years. I > took one zinc off and this seemed to slow the blisters. By this time, I > was in Fiji and unable to due a proper haulout. I ended up doing a > quick and dirt sandblast using beach sand (not good!) and overcoating > with Intertuf (vinyl tar) paint which was compatible with any paint left > behind by the poor blast job. Things were OK but not great for 6 or so > years. > > I sailed to NZ and then did a long overdue sandblast down to bare metal > all over the bottom. > > Here is my theory...... > > I think the blisters were caused by electrolysis living in the marina in > Vancouver for two years. This was probably caused by not having my > boat electrically isolated with an isolation transformer at the dock. > This may have been aggravated by being "over zinced". With too much > cathodic protection, it is possible to blow paint off a surface. I > found this out many years later after marrying a pipeline engineer :). > They use electrical cathodic protection on pipelines and if they turn it > up too high, it can blow off the coating and cause blisters. One clue > I had that this was the problem is that my rudder and trim tab which > were isolated through the rudder bushings never got blisters. Someone > told me once that I shouldn't have blasted using copper slag. It was > highly recommended at the time but since the rudder and trim tab were > OK, I doubt this was really the problem. > > I am hoping that with only enough zinc on the boat to last a year or > two, a good paint job and always using an isolation transformer if at a > powered dock, I have no further problems. > > I have no plans to come to Chile just yet.....I love the heat and find > NZ kind of cold so when I go offshore again it will probably be a wimpy > trip to Tonga or Tahiti. I would love to spend a cyclone season in > Vavau. > > Good luck with the paint job. Your problem doesn't sound nearly as > serious as mine was. I wouldn't sand blast if it was only 30 or 40 > blisters....there are some clear runny two pack epoxies for marginal > prep work that are very good. They bind in to old paint and seem to > penetrate right in to the steel. Both Ameron and Altex (Carboline) > have one. It is what they recommend when you paint after a high > pressure wet blast. They are very runny so 1 liter goes a long way. > > http://ppgamercoatau.ppgpmc.com/docs/products/Amerlock%20Sealer0906.pdf > > http://www.carboline.com/products/product-brands/products-by-brand/product-details/?brand=Rustbond&product=0922 > > > Cheers, Paul > > > On 3/12/2012 2:59 a.m., steve wrote: > > Paul , I understand that Opus IV was on the hard in New Plymouth for a > > while. How was the bottom when you hauled? Specifically what was the > > state of the epoxy barrier coat , under the antifouling. > > For the first time since I launched Silas Crosby in 1993 I have just > > hauled out into a normal yard here in Puerto Montt, Chile (about 5000 > > miles east of you I guess at 41 S) and have the luxury of some time to > > really have a good look at the bottom. > > About 1 1/2 years ago I did a quick winter haulout in Valdivia, Chile, > > but it was too cold for any epoxy work. > > At the moment there are about 30 or 40 blisters in the epoxy that are > > 1 to 3cms diameter. When they are unroofed, water drains out; the > > steel is clean , uncorroded and looks like it is freshly blasted. > > Before I hauled,I was thinking that it was time for a proper blast job > > and re-coating , but now my plan is to just clean up the blisters, > > paint each one with epoxy , feather the edges, antifoul , and relaunch > > in about a month. > > The initial bottom coating in '93 was done on a hot July day in Comox > > after sandblasting. Devoe 235 "bar rust" and then 2 more coats of > > another devoe epoxy , followed by antifouling. (Devoe is now Ameron). > > Over the last 3 days I have been able to scrape off about 75% of the > > multiple layers of old antifouling with a regular paint scraper, > > remarkably without damaging the epoxy barrier coats much. > > > > I guess some of the forum readers might be interested in these details > > about boats that have been used hard for 20 years. > > > > Are you heading over this way? > > Steve > | 29615|29544|2012-12-06 22:41:51|brentswain38|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|I spent a hurricane season in Vavau. Lots of fetch, not enough real shelter. The buoy I was on was an 800 lb ships anchor with ships chain on it. It was dragged across the harbour with an Islander 44 on it, the year before I got there. Next time I would go to the Marshalls. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > Paul , thanks for the detailed reply. That's good information. > > Regarding zincs, the black art. > I have had 6 " zincs , one on each side of the web forward of the rudder skeg, either bolted or welded , depending on availability of welder. No zincs actually on the hull itself. One smaller zinc either welded to the bottom of the rudder or bolted to one of the trimtab gudgeons just under the water (again depending on welder) (Haidan, i know what you are thinking!)And finally a donut zinc on the prop shaft. > In total 2 x 6" zincs , 1 x 4" zinc (rudder), and the shaft zinc. The shaft zinc is changed every 6 months , and the others every 1 1/2 to 2 years. > > I never did install shore power on the boat , because it scared me. > > My through-hulls are the scrapyard SS ball valves on SS welded nipples. I will let you know when I sink. Actually there is only one 1 1/2" valve and one 1/2" valve in the whole boat , but I guess it only takes one hole to sink the boat. > > I have one other huge hole in the bottom. An underwater window of 12 mm acrylic. I am replacing it for the first time on this haulout. > > Spending the cyclone season in Tonga would be great. A couple of boats were putting down big moorings in Neiafu when we were there. I saw a video of Neiafu harbour in a storm. It always amazes me that a real tempest can occur in a teapot. Actually one of the boats, if I remember correctly ,was Gungha from Victoria. They are still in Opua doing charters 25 years later , on a bigger boat ,same name. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hey Steve, > > > > I thought my boat was a special case but you seem to have had the same > > problem..... > > > > I launched in 1992 so probably blasted in 1988? Boat was sandblasted to > > white metal with Devoe 235 just like you. My wheel abrade coating had > > failed due to a screw-up by the applicator. I only used an inorganic > > zinc primer down to the waterline so the 235 was right on to the > > sandblasted steel. The sandblasting media was copper slag rather than > > silica grit. This was recommended at the time. > > > > About 2 years after being in the water I noticed small blisters about > > the size of the end of a pencil on the bottom. They seemed to be worse > > near the zincs but eventually covered most of the boat. I had two large > > zincs installed near the prop. There were no blisters at all on the > > rudder or trim tab, which had no zincs. I fought with the blisters for > > years. The steel itself had zero corrosion. In fact, you could still > > see the sandblast pattern in the bare spots. I had plastic (Marelon) > > thru hulls and my zincs would seem to last forever.....4 or 5 years. I > > took one zinc off and this seemed to slow the blisters. By this time, I > > was in Fiji and unable to due a proper haulout. I ended up doing a > > quick and dirt sandblast using beach sand (not good!) and overcoating > > with Intertuf (vinyl tar) paint which was compatible with any paint left > > behind by the poor blast job. Things were OK but not great for 6 or so > > years. > > > > I sailed to NZ and then did a long overdue sandblast down to bare metal > > all over the bottom. > > > > Here is my theory...... > > > > I think the blisters were caused by electrolysis living in the marina in > > Vancouver for two years. This was probably caused by not having my > > boat electrically isolated with an isolation transformer at the dock. > > This may have been aggravated by being "over zinced". With too much > > cathodic protection, it is possible to blow paint off a surface. I > > found this out many years later after marrying a pipeline engineer :). > > They use electrical cathodic protection on pipelines and if they turn it > > up too high, it can blow off the coating and cause blisters. One clue > > I had that this was the problem is that my rudder and trim tab which > > were isolated through the rudder bushings never got blisters. Someone > > told me once that I shouldn't have blasted using copper slag. It was > > highly recommended at the time but since the rudder and trim tab were > > OK, I doubt this was really the problem. > > > > I am hoping that with only enough zinc on the boat to last a year or > > two, a good paint job and always using an isolation transformer if at a > > powered dock, I have no further problems. > > > > I have no plans to come to Chile just yet.....I love the heat and find > > NZ kind of cold so when I go offshore again it will probably be a wimpy > > trip to Tonga or Tahiti. I would love to spend a cyclone season in > > Vavau. > > > > Good luck with the paint job. Your problem doesn't sound nearly as > > serious as mine was. I wouldn't sand blast if it was only 30 or 40 > > blisters....there are some clear runny two pack epoxies for marginal > > prep work that are very good. They bind in to old paint and seem to > > penetrate right in to the steel. Both Ameron and Altex (Carboline) > > have one. It is what they recommend when you paint after a high > > pressure wet blast. They are very runny so 1 liter goes a long way. > > > > http://ppgamercoatau.ppgpmc.com/docs/products/Amerlock%20Sealer0906.pdf > > > > http://www.carboline.com/products/product-brands/products-by-brand/product-details/?brand=Rustbond&product=0922 > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > On 3/12/2012 2:59 a.m., steve wrote: > > > Paul , I understand that Opus IV was on the hard in New Plymouth for a > > > while. How was the bottom when you hauled? Specifically what was the > > > state of the epoxy barrier coat , under the antifouling. > > > For the first time since I launched Silas Crosby in 1993 I have just > > > hauled out into a normal yard here in Puerto Montt, Chile (about 5000 > > > miles east of you I guess at 41 S) and have the luxury of some time to > > > really have a good look at the bottom. > > > About 1 1/2 years ago I did a quick winter haulout in Valdivia, Chile, > > > but it was too cold for any epoxy work. > > > At the moment there are about 30 or 40 blisters in the epoxy that are > > > 1 to 3cms diameter. When they are unroofed, water drains out; the > > > steel is clean , uncorroded and looks like it is freshly blasted. > > > Before I hauled,I was thinking that it was time for a proper blast job > > > and re-coating , but now my plan is to just clean up the blisters, > > > paint each one with epoxy , feather the edges, antifoul , and relaunch > > > in about a month. > > > The initial bottom coating in '93 was done on a hot July day in Comox > > > after sandblasting. Devoe 235 "bar rust" and then 2 more coats of > > > another devoe epoxy , followed by antifouling. (Devoe is now Ameron). > > > Over the last 3 days I have been able to scrape off about 75% of the > > > multiple layers of old antifouling with a regular paint scraper, > > > remarkably without damaging the epoxy barrier coats much. > > > > > > I guess some of the forum readers might be interested in these details > > > about boats that have been used hard for 20 years. > > > > > > Are you heading over this way? > > > Steve > > > | 29616|29544|2012-12-06 23:23:53|Paul Wilson|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|A lot of the moorings in Neiafu are on a short scope with too many jammed in too close together. Even if you don't drag, someone else might and then smack in to you. My plan would be to get a mooring with "Larry and Sherry" at Tapana anchorage south of Neiafu. They have done heaps of miles on many deliveries and really know what they are doing. Larry has made of network of moorings tied together in a criss cross of chain and cable on the bottom of the lagoon. As far as I know, there have never been problems with the boats that have stayed there. It is only slightly open to the west. 18 42.6 S 173 59.2 W This is the only place I would stay in a cyclone in Tonga. I would actively cruise around Vavau but I would make sure I had a mooring reserved and stay on board. I could be back to Tapana in only a few hours from anywhere in Vavau. In Fiji, there are many good spots in the mangroves, in rivers and and there are also quite a few cyclone protected bays that are seldom visited. A lot of people go to the marinas or rent a buoy because they leave their boats but there are no problems at all finding a safe place there that would cost you nothing if you are staying on board. Cheers, Paul On 7/12/2012 4:41 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > I spent a hurricane season in Vavau. Lots of fetch, not enough real > shelter. The buoy I was on was an 800 lb ships anchor with ships chain > on it. It was dragged across the harbour with an Islander 44 on it, > the year before I got there. Next time I would go to the Marshalls. . | 29617|29544|2012-12-07 02:10:02|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Hello Paul, just wanted to give a specific 'Thank You' for the Bushman-PDF on electrical corrosion aka "cathodic disbondment" (regards to Your wife). I only now had time to check this out. To understand what's going on in detail lessens my resentment versus steel and Aluminium as 'for corrosion reasons generally unsuitable materials' together with sea water. Cheers G_B Am 02.12.2012 um 23:36 schrieb Paul Wilson: > Hi Giuseppe..... > > I asked my wife and she said the technical term is cathodic disbondment. > I had a quick look and this came up....hopefully it helps. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection#Cathodic_Disbonding > > http://www.bushman.cc/pdf/corrosion_theory.pdf > > Cheers, Paul > | 29618|29610|2012-12-07 11:31:59|Tom Pee|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|But adding pilot house height increases the the probability of being turned over in the first place. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 10:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon   Slightly, but probably not noticeably, unless you make the pilot house too long. The buoyancy in the pilot house when submerged, will greatly improve your ultimate stability, the equivalent of adding thousands of pounds to your keel. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > I have a new concern; if I install a raised saloon on a floor elevated of around 1 1/2 to 2 feet can it influence the balance of the boat (37ft steel)? > > The reason of the raised saloon is of course to see outside. > > Martin. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29619|29610|2012-12-07 11:48:24|martin demers|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|The pilothouse is already part of the boat, I dont want to increase it's height but only to raise the floor to be seated at window level. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: tompee77@... Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 08:31:57 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon But adding pilot house height increases the the probability of being turned over in the first place. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 10:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon Slightly, but probably not noticeably, unless you make the pilot house too long. The buoyancy in the pilot house when submerged, will greatly improve your ultimate stability, the equivalent of adding thousands of pounds to your keel. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > I have a new concern; if I install a raised saloon on a floor elevated of around 1 1/2 to 2 feet can it influence the balance of the boat (37ft steel)? > > The reason of the raised saloon is of course to see outside. > > Martin. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29620|29610|2012-12-07 14:38:27|wild_explorer|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|Not really... Poor weight distribution of boat's items ABOVE waterline, on deck or placing something on a mast, may affect stability of the boat more then adding couple of inches to pilot house. There is a spreadsheet in file section for weight distribution calculation. Assume vertical center of gravity (starting point) slightly above waterline for unloaded boat, and see how it changes when you add weight above and below WL. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > But adding pilot house height increases the the probability of being turned over in the first place. > > | 29621|29610|2012-12-07 14:56:40|Paul Wilson|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|The problem is when the high cabin top is hit by a breaking wave. In that case, it has nothing really to do with the weight of the cabin but the momentum, weight and force of the water. Paul On 8/12/2012 8:38 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Not really... Poor weight distribution of boat's items ABOVE > waterline, on deck or placing something on a mast, may affect > stability of the boat more then adding couple of inches to pilot house. > > There is a spreadsheet in file section for weight distribution > calculation. Assume vertical center of gravity (starting point) > slightly above waterline for unloaded boat, and see how it changes > when you add weight above and below WL. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Tom Pee wrote: > > > > But adding pilot house height increases the the probability of being > turned over in the first place. > > > > > > | 29622|29622|2012-12-07 15:02:43|wild_explorer|Putting tank top BEFORE the deck is on|I am thinking about possibility of putting tank top before putting the deck on. It is need to put foredeck on anyway, because the bow area is unstable before it is on. With the transom on, hull leveled and beam set, the shape of the bottom of the hull is pretty much set and it is logical to put transverse tank baffles (to maintain proper shape of the bottom) and tank-top on. Centerline reinforcement plate at the bow helps to maintain hull's shape as well. It would make putting twin keels (after putting deck, cabin, pilot house), walk on tank top and drop-in the engine much easier. P.S. It is need fully weld centerline before putting tank top on. Any concerns about doing it?| 29623|29610|2012-12-07 16:56:22|wild_explorer|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|True (from one point of view). Stability of a sailboat is very complex subject (static, dynamic, ultimate stability). Height of freeboard, the shape of the cabin and pilot house are variables in such case which may affect different types of stability. I think original question was about raising floor inside a boat. In this case, that where weight distribution kicks in (which affects stability of the boat). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The problem is when the high cabin top is hit by a breaking wave. In > that case, it has nothing really to do with the weight of the cabin but > the momentum, weight and force of the water. Paul > > On 8/12/2012 8:38 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > Not really... Poor weight distribution of boat's items ABOVE > > waterline, on deck or placing something on a mast, may affect > > stability of the boat more then adding couple of inches to pilot house. > > > > There is a spreadsheet in file section for weight distribution > > calculation. Assume vertical center of gravity (starting point) > > slightly above waterline for unloaded boat, and see how it changes > > when you add weight above and below WL. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > But adding pilot house height increases the the probability of being > > turned over in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > | 29624|29610|2012-12-07 18:33:00|Pris Sail|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|Stability explained: http://sailskills.co.uk/Stability/sailskills_stability_stability_explained.html Raising the floor will reduce stability by altering the righting moment, click on the pictures on the right side for more info and animations of the processes. Estimating the effect of raising the floor is not a difficult thing to calculate if you have the data for your boat, and you can figure it out on your own using a basic mechanics textbook, or an engineering college student who has had mechanics would probably be happy to trade some time for money.  If you don't have the data, think the effect may be significant and/or want more than an estimate have a naval architect make the calculations for you. ----- Original Message ----- From: martin demers To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 10:48 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon The pilothouse is already part of the boat, I dont want to increase it's height but only to raise the floor to be seated at window level. Martin. | 29625|29610|2012-12-07 18:39:32|brentswain38|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|Raising the pilot house floor increases the amount of storage space under it, which could enable you to put heavy tools, spare ground tackle, tankage , scuba gear, etc, lower down in the boat, reducing the negative effect of raising the floor, resulting in a net benefit in terms of stability, or far less of a loss, something naval architects often overlook. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Pris Sail wrote: > > Stability explained: > > http://sailskills.co.uk/Stability/sailskills_stability_stability_explained.html > > Raising the floor will reduce stability by altering the righting moment, click on the pictures on the right side for more info and animations of the processes. > > Estimating the effect of raising the floor is not a difficult thing to calculate if you have the data for your boat, and you can figure it out on your own using a basic mechanics textbook, or an engineering college student who has had mechanics would probably be happy to trade some time for money.  If you don't have the data, think the effect may be significant and/or want more than an estimate have a naval architect make the calculations for you. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: martin demers > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 10:48 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon > > > The pilothouse is already part of the boat, I dont want to increase it's height but only to raise the floor to be seated at window level. > Martin. > | 29626|29544|2012-12-07 18:42:26|brentswain38|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Hurricane Wacka totally missed them, while wrecking Niafu. They only got a moderate westerly, with far less fetch than Niafu. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > A lot of the moorings in Neiafu are on a short scope with too many > jammed in too close together. Even if you don't drag, someone else > might and then smack in to you. My plan would be to get a mooring with > "Larry and Sherry" at Tapana anchorage south of Neiafu. They have done > heaps of miles on many deliveries and really know what they are doing. > Larry has made of network of moorings tied together in a criss cross of > chain and cable on the bottom of the lagoon. As far as I know, there > have never been problems with the boats that have stayed there. It is > only slightly open to the west. > > 18 42.6 S > 173 59.2 W > > This is the only place I would stay in a cyclone in Tonga. I would > actively cruise around Vavau but I would make sure I had a mooring > reserved and stay on board. I could be back to Tapana in only a few > hours from anywhere in Vavau. > > In Fiji, there are many good spots in the mangroves, in rivers and and > there are also quite a few cyclone protected bays that are seldom > visited. A lot of people go to the marinas or rent a buoy because they > leave their boats but there are no problems at all finding a safe place > there that would cost you nothing if you are staying on board. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 7/12/2012 4:41 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > I spent a hurricane season in Vavau. Lots of fetch, not enough real > > shelter. The buoy I was on was an 800 lb ships anchor with ships chain > > on it. It was dragged across the harbour with an Islander 44 on it, > > the year before I got there. Next time I would go to the Marshalls. . > | 29627|29610|2012-12-07 18:48:45|brentswain38|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|Rollovers occur when a boat is thrown to leeward by a wave, and the keel and deck edge dig in suddenly. A couple of inches extra height in the cabin will make little if any difference. A heavier mast and rig reduce the chances of a rollover, by increasing the inertia of the boat. Lose the mast, and the odds of a rollover increase drastically . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The problem is when the high cabin top is hit by a breaking wave. In > that case, it has nothing really to do with the weight of the cabin but > the momentum, weight and force of the water. Paul > > On 8/12/2012 8:38 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > Not really... Poor weight distribution of boat's items ABOVE > > waterline, on deck or placing something on a mast, may affect > > stability of the boat more then adding couple of inches to pilot house. > > > > There is a spreadsheet in file section for weight distribution > > calculation. Assume vertical center of gravity (starting point) > > slightly above waterline for unloaded boat, and see how it changes > > when you add weight above and below WL. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > But adding pilot house height increases the the probability of being > > turned over in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > | 29628|29622|2012-12-07 18:52:52|brentswain38|Re: Putting tank top BEFORE the deck is on|As long as your beam has been pulled in, I see no problem doing it that way. For a twin keeler you can cut the keel slot out and pull the tank top in thru that hole. Welding the centreline before welding the tank top down is a good idea. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I am thinking about possibility of putting tank top before putting the deck on. > > It is need to put foredeck on anyway, because the bow area is unstable before it is on. With the transom on, hull leveled and beam set, the shape of the bottom of the hull is pretty much set and it is logical to put transverse tank baffles (to maintain proper shape of the bottom) and tank-top on. > > Centerline reinforcement plate at the bow helps to maintain hull's shape as well. It would make putting twin keels (after putting deck, cabin, pilot house), walk on tank top and drop-in the engine much easier. > > P.S. It is need fully weld centerline before putting tank top on. > > Any concerns about doing it? > | 29629|29622|2012-12-07 20:12:51|wild_explorer|Re: Putting tank top BEFORE the deck is on|I am trying to avoid cutting keel's slot before welding tank top. The cut/hull may sag or change shape without tank top on. With tank top on, sagging is very unlikely. For transom positioning, I made a simple "pole crane" from 12ft 4x4inch lumber/timber (as a pole), rope, cargo straps, chain comealong - it took me couples of hours to build it. Now I can lift several hundreds pounds of weight over the hull. Should be enough for tank top lifting. I did not feel a necessity to use lifting equipment up to a point of aligning the transom. I even was able to lift/drag transom up just with lumber as rails, comealong and cable connected to the bow. But transom is too heavy for one man to handle, support and tack weld... Crane helps to keep it in a position ;). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > As long as your beam has been pulled in, I see no problem doing it that way. For a twin keeler you can cut the keel slot out and pull the tank top in thru that hole. Welding the centreline before welding the tank top down is a good idea. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > I am thinking about possibility of putting tank top before putting the deck on. > > > > It is need to put foredeck on anyway, because the bow area is unstable before it is on. With the transom on, hull leveled and beam set, the shape of the bottom of the hull is pretty much set and it is logical to put transverse tank baffles (to maintain proper shape of the bottom) and tank-top on. > > > > Centerline reinforcement plate at the bow helps to maintain hull's shape as well. It would make putting twin keels (after putting deck, cabin, pilot house), walk on tank top and drop-in the engine much easier. > > > > P.S. It is need fully weld centerline before putting tank top on. > > > > Any concerns about doing it? > > > | 29630|29610|2012-12-09 09:44:18|Aaron|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|Brent Why do you say to long? ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 6:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon   Slightly, but probably not noticeably, unless you make the pilot house too long. The buoyancy in the pilot house when submerged, will greatly improve your ultimate stability, the equivalent of adding thousands of pounds to your keel. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > I have a new concern; if I install a raised saloon on a floor elevated of around 1 1/2 to 2 feet can it influence the balance of the boat (37ft steel)? > > The reason of the raised saloon is of course to see outside. > > Martin. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29631|29631|2012-12-09 15:02:08|Ted|Trim tab, wind vane, autopilot steering|Hi Brent, Progress has been somewhat slow, but I am able to spend more time on our 36' BS now. I have uploaded a couple of photos to the 36' Fly photo album. They show the trimtab and control shaft, with the trim tab operation lever (part of) through the transom from the pilot house interior. In your drawings of the vane steering, the axis of the wind vane is parallel to the axis of the trim tab. On our boat the trim tab axis leans back. Does the axis of the the trim tab need to lean back as well? Do you have any more detailed info about connecting the though transom shaft to the trim tab and at the other end to a tiller pilot? Inside the hull the shaft runs through a plastic conduit that has been foamed in and slightly displaced by the foam so that the shaft doe not run on when turned. What is the maximum angle of operation of the though transom shaft? Did you need a separate fluxgate compass for the autopilot because it is not possible to site the tiller pilot far enough away from the steel of the hull? Please let me know if the above info is in a later copy of your book and if it is how much it costs. Best regards, Ted| 29632|29631|2012-12-10 17:32:47|brentswain38|Re: Trim tab, wind vane, autopilot steering|The axis of the trim tab doesn't have to be the same as the axis of the vane and never is, but closer is better, within 25 degrees. Less slop in the connection that way. Anything which allows you to turn the trim tab from below decks works.A little bit of slop is OK. I have my autohelm 800 in front of my steering seat, below the front end of the wheelhouse, and it works fine. A friend has his alongside the steel cabinside, and it also works well there, and doesn't lock in. Autohelms are very forgiving, in that regard. Not the case with a Tiller pilot, which are far too sensitive about nearby steel, and thus useless on a steel boat. I have a drawing of the inside steering, which I can send you, if you send me your mailing address. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ted" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Progress has been somewhat slow, but I am able to spend more time on our 36' BS now. > > I have uploaded a couple of photos to the 36' Fly photo album. > They show the trimtab and control shaft, with the trim tab operation lever (part of) through the transom from the pilot house interior. > > In your drawings of the vane steering, the axis of the wind vane is parallel to the axis of the trim tab. On our boat the trim tab axis leans back. Does the axis of the the trim tab need to lean back as well? > > Do you have any more detailed info about connecting the though transom shaft to the trim tab and at the other end to a tiller pilot? Inside the hull the shaft runs through a plastic conduit that has been foamed in and slightly displaced by the foam so that the shaft doe not run on when turned. > > What is the maximum angle of operation of the though transom shaft? > > Did you need a separate fluxgate compass for the autopilot because it is not possible to site the tiller pilot far enough away from the steel of the hull? > > Please let me know if the above info is in a later copy of your book and if it is how much it costs. > > > Best regards, > > Ted > | 29633|29610|2012-12-10 17:34:19|brentswain38|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|Too long means raising that much more weight higher up, reducing stability. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Brent > Why do you say to long? > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 6:24 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon > > >   > > Slightly, but probably not noticeably, unless you make the pilot house too long. The buoyancy in the pilot house when submerged, will greatly improve your ultimate stability, the equivalent of adding thousands of pounds to your keel. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > I have a new concern; if I install a raised saloon on a floor elevated of around 1 1/2 to 2 feet can it influence the balance of the boat (37ft steel)? > > > > The reason of the raised saloon is of course to see outside. > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29634|29622|2012-12-10 17:38:20|brentswain38|Re: Putting tank top BEFORE the deck is on|With the keel slots being in the middle of the bottom plate, I have always cut the keel slots out before putting the tank top in, and have seen zero change in hull shape when I cut the keel slots out. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I am trying to avoid cutting keel's slot before welding tank top. The cut/hull may sag or change shape without tank top on. With tank top on, sagging is very unlikely. > > For transom positioning, I made a simple "pole crane" from 12ft 4x4inch lumber/timber (as a pole), rope, cargo straps, chain comealong - it took me couples of hours to build it. Now I can lift several hundreds pounds of weight over the hull. Should be enough for tank top lifting. > > I did not feel a necessity to use lifting equipment up to a point of aligning the transom. I even was able to lift/drag transom up just with lumber as rails, comealong and cable connected to the bow. But transom is too heavy for one man to handle, support and tack weld... Crane helps to keep it in a position ;). > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > As long as your beam has been pulled in, I see no problem doing it that way. For a twin keeler you can cut the keel slot out and pull the tank top in thru that hole. Welding the centreline before welding the tank top down is a good idea. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > I am thinking about possibility of putting tank top before putting the deck on. > > > > > > It is need to put foredeck on anyway, because the bow area is unstable before it is on. With the transom on, hull leveled and beam set, the shape of the bottom of the hull is pretty much set and it is logical to put transverse tank baffles (to maintain proper shape of the bottom) and tank-top on. > > > > > > Centerline reinforcement plate at the bow helps to maintain hull's shape as well. It would make putting twin keels (after putting deck, cabin, pilot house), walk on tank top and drop-in the engine much easier. > > > > > > P.S. It is need fully weld centerline before putting tank top on. > > > > > > Any concerns about doing it? > > > > > > | 29635|29610|2012-12-10 17:41:26|martin demers|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|Brent, If I make the pilothouse about 1 1/2 ft longer how can I compensate? would adding lead in the keel do the job? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 22:34:15 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon Too long means raising that much more weight higher up, reducing stability. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Brent > Why do you say to long? > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 6:24 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon > > > � > > Slightly, but probably not noticeably, unless you make the pilot house too long. The buoyancy in the pilot house when submerged, will greatly improve your ultimate stability, the equivalent of adding thousands of pounds to your keel. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > I have a new concern; if I install a raised saloon on a floor elevated of around 1 1/2 to 2 feet can it influence the balance of the boat (37ft steel)? > > > > The reason of the raised saloon is of course to see outside. > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29636|29610|2012-12-11 00:20:52|Aaron|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|OK that is and was my concern when I increased the length and raised my pilothouse. ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 1:34 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon   Too long means raising that much more weight higher up, reducing stability. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Brent > Why do you say to long? > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 6:24 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon > > >   > > Slightly, but probably not noticeably, unless you make the pilot house too long. The buoyancy in the pilot house when submerged, will greatly improve your ultimate stability, the equivalent of adding thousands of pounds to your keel. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > I have a new concern; if I install a raised saloon on a floor elevated of around 1 1/2 to 2 feet can it influence the balance of the boat (37ft steel)? > > > > The reason of the raised saloon is of course to see outside. > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29637|29610|2012-12-11 17:28:14|brentswain38|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|1 1/2 ft is not a lot. Just don't get carried away, and make it look like a Winnabago. Too long also reduces the space you have in front of it, to stow a dinghy at sea. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > If I make the pilothouse about 1 1/2 ft longer how can I compensate? > would adding lead in the keel do the job? > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 22:34:15 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too long means raising that much more weight higher up, reducing stability. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > > > Brent > > > Why do you say to long? > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 6:24 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > Slightly, but probably not noticeably, unless you make the pilot house too long. The buoyancy in the pilot house when submerged, will greatly improve your ultimate stability, the equivalent of adding thousands of pounds to your keel. > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a new concern; if I install a raised saloon on a floor elevated of around 1 1/2 to 2 feet can it influence the balance of the boat (37ft steel)? > > > > > > > > The reason of the raised saloon is of course to see outside. > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29638|29610|2012-12-11 17:39:51|martin demers|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|ok, thanks. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 22:28:13 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon 1 1/2 ft is not a lot. Just don't get carried away, and make it look like a Winnabago. Too long also reduces the space you have in front of it, to stow a dinghy at sea. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, > > If I make the pilothouse about 1 1/2 ft longer how can I compensate? > would adding lead in the keel do the job? > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 22:34:15 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too long means raising that much more weight higher up, reducing stability. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > > > Brent > > > Why do you say to long? > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 6:24 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse raised saloon > > > > > > > > > � > > > > > > Slightly, but probably not noticeably, unless you make the pilot house too long. The buoyancy in the pilot house when submerged, will greatly improve your ultimate stability, the equivalent of adding thousands of pounds to your keel. > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a new concern; if I install a raised saloon on a floor elevated of around 1 1/2 to 2 feet can it influence the balance of the boat (37ft steel)? > > > > > > > > The reason of the raised saloon is of course to see outside. > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29639|29610|2012-12-11 18:20:25|Ted|Re: Pilothouse raised saloon|Hi Martin, I have uploaded a photo called InsidePilotHouse20121211 to the 36' Fly photo album. The levels are designed to allow people of different heights to stand or sit with a view out of the windows. In the foreground the sole is at much the same level as it is in the saloon but it slopes up as it enters the pilot house. Aft, on the port side, the sole height is such that my wife can stand and look out of the windows. It is also a good height to sit on and watch the cooking on the gimballed stove, which is to port of the sloping sole. The sole to the starboard is the correct height for me to stand on and see out of the windows. The engine box has an aluminium treadplate top and is a suitable height to sit on when at the chart table. The steps up to the companion way are suitable to sit on. One can sit on the top step and see out of the windows. One can open the sliding hatch and stand on the top step to watch the sails or keep watch, while being safe inside the shut companionway doors. One can, with the back doors open sit on the comapanionway step and see over the top of the pilot house roof. The two handrails, which support the steps, are also designed so that when sitting on the top step one can wrap ones arm around one to avoid being thrown around too much in a seaway. Best regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > The pilothouse is already part of the boat, I dont want to increase it's height but only to raise the floor to be seated at window level. > Martin. > | 29640|29622|2012-12-11 21:39:27|wild_explorer|Re: Putting tank top BEFORE the deck is on|May be I worry too much... But my keel's top is twice longer (almost from dart-to-dart) and the hull's shape is different (flatter on centerline - less pointed at midships). OK... Will see how it goes.... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With the keel slots being in the middle of the bottom plate, I have always cut the keel slots out before putting the tank top in, and have seen zero change in hull shape when I cut the keel slots out. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > I am trying to avoid cutting keel's slot before welding tank top. The cut/hull may sag or change shape without tank top on. With tank top on, sagging is very unlikely. > > > > For transom positioning, I made a simple "pole crane" from 12ft 4x4inch lumber/timber (as a pole), rope, cargo straps, chain comealong - it took me couples of hours to build it. Now I can lift several hundreds pounds of weight over the hull. Should be enough for tank top lifting. > > > > I did not feel a necessity to use lifting equipment up to a point of aligning the transom. I even was able to lift/drag transom up just with lumber as rails, comealong and cable connected to the bow. But transom is too heavy for one man to handle, support and tack weld... Crane helps to keep it in a position ;). > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > As long as your beam has been pulled in, I see no problem doing it that way. For a twin keeler you can cut the keel slot out and pull the tank top in thru that hole. Welding the centreline before welding the tank top down is a good idea. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > > > I am thinking about possibility of putting tank top before putting the deck on. > > > > > > > > It is need to put foredeck on anyway, because the bow area is unstable before it is on. With the transom on, hull leveled and beam set, the shape of the bottom of the hull is pretty much set and it is logical to put transverse tank baffles (to maintain proper shape of the bottom) and tank-top on. > > > > > > > > Centerline reinforcement plate at the bow helps to maintain hull's shape as well. It would make putting twin keels (after putting deck, cabin, pilot house), walk on tank top and drop-in the engine much easier. > > > > > > > > P.S. It is need fully weld centerline before putting tank top on. > > > > > > > > Any concerns about doing it? > > > > > > > > > > | 29641|29641|2012-12-13 00:14:47|wild_explorer|Grinding disk for fixing welds|I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, but I could not fit my 4-1/2 angle grinder with regular disk into a spot (the angle is too sharp there) and grinder just rests against the plates without disk touching the weld. Someone suggested to me to use bigger disk. First, I though about using 7" grinding or cut-off disk. Well... Beside being TOO unsafe (no guard, almost no room to grab handle of the grinder). It is DANGEROUS. 7" disk has rating about 8K RPM and my grinder has 11K RPM. Big disk might simply disintegrate without doing any work. 6" disk has about 10K RPMs rating - not good too. Finally in Home Depot I got Diablo 5 in. x 1/8 in. x 7/8 in. Dual Metal Cutting and Grinding Disc with Depressed Center (rating exceeds 11K RPMs). It works surprisingly well for welds grinding. Fast and easy. I could not use standard (4-1/2") safety guard and improvise some "guard". I hate grinding - it takes too long. I tried grinding as well as cut-off disks, but this disk makes fixing welds much easier. P.S. Check RPM rating of the disk and be sure that disk is rated for more (or equal) RPMs than your grinder.| 29642|29641|2012-12-13 10:43:12|Larry Dale|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|When I worked as a welder the saying was " you are either a good welder or a good grinder". --- On Thu, 12/13/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Grinding disk for fixing welds To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 12:14 AM I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, but I could not fit my 4-1/2 angle grinder with regular disk into a spot (the angle is too sharp there) and grinder just rests against the plates without disk touching the weld. Someone suggested to me to use bigger disk. First, I though about using 7"  grinding or cut-off disk. Well... Beside being TOO unsafe (no guard, almost no room to grab handle of the grinder). It is DANGEROUS. 7" disk has rating about 8K RPM and my grinder has 11K RPM. Big disk might simply disintegrate without doing any work. 6" disk has about 10K RPMs rating - not good too. Finally in Home Depot I got Diablo 5 in. x 1/8 in. x 7/8 in. Dual Metal Cutting and Grinding Disc with Depressed Center (rating exceeds 11K RPMs). It works surprisingly well for welds grinding. Fast and easy. I could not use standard (4-1/2") safety guard and improvise some "guard". I hate grinding - it takes too long. I tried grinding as well as cut-off disks, but this disk makes fixing welds much easier. P.S. Check RPM rating of the disk and be sure that disk is rated for more (or equal) RPMs than your grinder. ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29643|29641|2012-12-13 16:15:34|Mark Hamill|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Make sure you use all safety shields on the grinder. Pieces of the disk will go through face shields and glasses. Really ugly accidents. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29644|29641|2012-12-13 17:33:14|brentswain38|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|A die grinder is a handy tool for getting into tight spots and very handy for maintenance of small chip and dings later. I never use the guard on a grinder, just be careful. It makes it too hard, awkward and slow to use. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, but I could not fit my 4-1/2 angle grinder with regular disk into a spot (the angle is too sharp there) and grinder just rests against the plates without disk touching the weld. Someone suggested to me to use bigger disk. > > First, I though about using 7" grinding or cut-off disk. Well... Beside being TOO unsafe (no guard, almost no room to grab handle of the grinder). It is DANGEROUS. 7" disk has rating about 8K RPM and my grinder has 11K RPM. Big disk might simply disintegrate without doing any work. 6" disk has about 10K RPMs rating - not good too. > > Finally in Home Depot I got Diablo 5 in. x 1/8 in. x 7/8 in. Dual Metal Cutting and Grinding Disc with Depressed Center (rating exceeds 11K RPMs). > > It works surprisingly well for welds grinding. Fast and easy. I could not use standard (4-1/2") safety guard and improvise some "guard". > > I hate grinding - it takes too long. I tried grinding as well as cut-off disks, but this disk makes fixing welds much easier. > > P.S. Check RPM rating of the disk and be sure that disk is rated for more (or equal) RPMs than your grinder. > | 29645|29641|2012-12-13 17:35:43|brentswain38|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|A full face shield means breathing less grinding and fibreglass dust thrown in your face, a dust mask it also a good idea. I find my welding helmet with the dark glass flipped up works best. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > > Make sure you use all safety shields on the grinder. Pieces of the disk will go through face shields and glasses. Really ugly accidents. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29646|29544|2012-12-13 17:39:29|brentswain38|Re: Opus IV Relaunch: Bottom epoxy state?|Some use the extreme SE part of the harbour for a mooring, where only a northerly could get you.It's sheltered from all other directions.Not many boats down there. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > A lot of the moorings in Neiafu are on a short scope with too many > jammed in too close together. Even if you don't drag, someone else > might and then smack in to you. My plan would be to get a mooring with > "Larry and Sherry" at Tapana anchorage south of Neiafu. They have done > heaps of miles on many deliveries and really know what they are doing. > Larry has made of network of moorings tied together in a criss cross of > chain and cable on the bottom of the lagoon. As far as I know, there > have never been problems with the boats that have stayed there. It is > only slightly open to the west. > > 18 42.6 S > 173 59.2 W > > This is the only place I would stay in a cyclone in Tonga. I would > actively cruise around Vavau but I would make sure I had a mooring > reserved and stay on board. I could be back to Tapana in only a few > hours from anywhere in Vavau. > > In Fiji, there are many good spots in the mangroves, in rivers and and > there are also quite a few cyclone protected bays that are seldom > visited. A lot of people go to the marinas or rent a buoy because they > leave their boats but there are no problems at all finding a safe place > there that would cost you nothing if you are staying on board. > > Cheers, Paul > > On 7/12/2012 4:41 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > I spent a hurricane season in Vavau. Lots of fetch, not enough real > > shelter. The buoy I was on was an 800 lb ships anchor with ships chain > > on it. It was dragged across the harbour with an Islander 44 on it, > > the year before I got there. Next time I would go to the Marshalls. . > | 29647|29641|2012-12-13 17:43:20|brentswain38|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|If it doesn't interfere with your stem bar, and is covered in epoxy and foam and never seen again, don' worry about it. Just put lots of weld on, and get the outside weld good and waterproof. Too many people lose the dream by wasting huge amounts of time and money on things that don't matter. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, but I could not fit my 4-1/2 angle grinder with regular disk into a spot (the angle is too sharp there) and grinder just rests against the plates without disk touching the weld. Someone suggested to me to use bigger disk. > > First, I though about using 7" grinding or cut-off disk. Well... Beside being TOO unsafe (no guard, almost no room to grab handle of the grinder). It is DANGEROUS. 7" disk has rating about 8K RPM and my grinder has 11K RPM. Big disk might simply disintegrate without doing any work. 6" disk has about 10K RPMs rating - not good too. > > Finally in Home Depot I got Diablo 5 in. x 1/8 in. x 7/8 in. Dual Metal Cutting and Grinding Disc with Depressed Center (rating exceeds 11K RPMs). > > It works surprisingly well for welds grinding. Fast and easy. I could not use standard (4-1/2") safety guard and improvise some "guard". > > I hate grinding - it takes too long. I tried grinding as well as cut-off disks, but this disk makes fixing welds much easier. > > P.S. Check RPM rating of the disk and be sure that disk is rated for more (or equal) RPMs than your grinder. > | 29648|29641|2012-12-13 21:05:20|wild_explorer|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|The same we were told at the beginning of welding class, but were told as well, that good welder is someone who willing to fix "not-so-good" welds before you become professional/master welder ;). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Larry Dale wrote: > > When I worked as a welder the saying was " you are either a good welder or a good grinder". > | 29649|29641|2012-12-13 21:19:45|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Have you ever seen or HEARD of an Arcair torch? My brother dragged a backhoe bucket into his shop one day that had been twisted out on a job. He grabbed an acetylene cutting torch and I asked him what he was going to do with that? He said “ Just watch and learn!” Half an hour later he looks at me laughing at him and says “Okay what would you do?” I walked over to a drawer and pulled out an Arcair torch I had last used about 15 years ago. It was clear that no one knew what it was. I pulled out a copper coated carbon rod hooked up the air and proceeded to remove all the welds on one side of the bucket so cleanly that it was ready to reweld after it was straightened with almost no grinding. Another time a guy with an earth saw asked me to fix the cracks that went completely through the 1-1/2” thick wheel. A welder he hired to help me said it would take more than a day just to vee out the cracks. I pulled out the Arcair and in about half an hour we were welding from both sides right to the center. I used to remove and replace tooth pockets that were massively welded on to the wheel segments the same way. You can reach right down into the tightest corner to remove a weld. Great tool, cheap to buy cheap to operate, throws lots of sparks. Wear your earmuffs because you just can’t believe how noisy this thing is! Gary H. Lucas From: wild_explorer Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 12:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Grinding disk for fixing welds I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, but I could not fit my 4-1/2 angle grinder with regular disk into a spot (the angle is too sharp there) and grinder just rests against the plates without disk touching the weld. Someone suggested to me to use bigger disk. First, I though about using 7" grinding or cut-off disk. Well... Beside being TOO unsafe (no guard, almost no room to grab handle of the grinder). It is DANGEROUS. 7" disk has rating about 8K RPM and my grinder has 11K RPM. Big disk might simply disintegrate without doing any work. 6" disk has about 10K RPMs rating - not good too. Finally in Home Depot I got Diablo 5 in. x 1/8 in. x 7/8 in. Dual Metal Cutting and Grinding Disc with Depressed Center (rating exceeds 11K RPMs). It works surprisingly well for welds grinding. Fast and easy. I could not use standard (4-1/2") safety guard and improvise some "guard". I hate grinding - it takes too long. I tried grinding as well as cut-off disks, but this disk makes fixing welds much easier. P.S. Check RPM rating of the disk and be sure that disk is rated for more (or equal) RPMs than your grinder. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29650|29641|2012-12-13 21:37:11|wild_explorer|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Some tack welds (on the inside of the hull) got cracked below bow hull's joint and along fore part of centerline (I put some tack welds where I could on outside of bow area as recommended). It was too much stress for tack welds made with low penetration 3/32" 6013 electrode. So, I decided to grind bad parts off and re-weld it with 5/32" 6013 and 1/8" 7024 (on flat). 7024 remelts tack welds very good. P.S. I should use 1/8" 6011 electrode for tack welding in that area (as Brent recommends). No problems at all on aft centerline. I think because hull shape was almost set after pulling several inches of aft part from midships. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > If it doesn't interfere with your stem bar, and is covered in epoxy and foam and never seen again, don' worry about it. Just put lots of weld on, and get the outside weld good and waterproof. > Too many people lose the dream by wasting huge amounts of time and money on things that don't matter. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, | 29651|29641|2012-12-13 21:59:31|wild_explorer|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Are you talking about Carbon Arc Gouging torch? As I remember, arc gouging needs about 400-600A current. My AC welder trips the breaker welding with 180A after one 5/32 6013 rod ;) And what air pressure and air flow does arc gouging needs? About 40-80psi, 8-20cfm??? Price range is $300-500... Plus carbon electrodes :( Looks like it is from "nice-to-have" list. I tried arc gouging in welding class. Fast weld removal, but requires some practice. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Have you ever seen or HEARD of an Arcair torch? My brother dragged a backhoe bucket into his shop one day that had been twisted out on a job. He grabbed an acetylene cutting torch and I asked him what he was going to do with that? He said “ Just watch and learn!” Half an hour later he looks at me laughing at him and says “Okay what would you do?” I walked over to a drawer and pulled out an Arcair torch I had last used about 15 years ago. It was clear that no one knew what it was. I pulled out a copper coated carbon rod hooked up the air and proceeded to remove all the welds on one side of the bucket so cleanly that it was ready to reweld after it was straightened with almost no grinding. Another time a guy with an earth saw asked me to fix the cracks that went completely through the 1-1/2” thick wheel. A welder he hired to help me said it would take more than a day just to vee out the cracks. I pulled out the Arcair and in about half an hour we were welding from both sides right to the center. I used to remove and replace tooth pockets that were massively welded on to the wheel segments the same way. You can reach right down into the tightest corner to remove a weld. Great tool, cheap to buy cheap to operate, throws lots of sparks. Wear your earmuffs because you just can’t believe how noisy this thing is! > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: wild_explorer > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 12:14 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Grinding disk for fixing welds > > > I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, but I could not fit my 4-1/2 angle grinder with regular disk into a spot (the angle is too sharp there) and grinder just rests against the plates without disk touching the weld. | 29652|29641|2012-12-13 22:54:47|Kim|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Hi Wild ... As Brent has noted, a die grinder is very handy skinny tool for getting into tight spots that an ordinary grinder can't reach. I've got a cheap air-operated one that looks just like this ... http://tinyurl.com/bpq6un4 You wouldn't think those little bits of stone that the die grinder uses would wear away steel; but they do! Brent has also mentioned that excellent face protection when grinding is to use one of the heavy, strong, old-fashioned, non-automatic welding helmets with the dark glass flipped up (there's still a fixed clear protective glass under the dark glass). The one I use looks like this ... http://tinyurl.com/cnqzxjr ... and it's great as a grinding protector. Yes, the steel guards on the grinders are there for a good reason and should always be left on; but everyone I know removes them - they usually just get in the way. Cheers ... Kim. PS: One of the great things about building a 26-footer is that the runs of weld that need grinding are shorter!! :-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, but I could not fit my 4-1/2 angle grinder with regular disk into a spot (the angle is too sharp there) and grinder just rests against the plates without disk touching the weld. Someone suggested to me to use bigger disk. > > First, I though about using 7" grinding or cut-off disk. Well... Beside being TOO unsafe (no guard, almost no room to grab handle of the grinder). It is DANGEROUS. 7" disk has rating about 8K RPM and my grinder has 11K RPM. Big disk might simply disintegrate without doing any work. 6" disk has about 10K RPMs rating - not good too. > > Finally in Home Depot I got Diablo 5 in. x 1/8 in. x 7/8 in. Dual Metal Cutting and Grinding Disc with Depressed Center (rating exceeds 11K RPMs). > > It works surprisingly well for welds grinding. Fast and easy. I could not use standard (4-1/2") safety guard and improvise some "guard". > > I hate grinding - it takes too long. I tried grinding as well as cut-off disks, but this disk makes fixing welds much easier. > > P.S. Check RPM rating of the disk and be sure that disk is rated for more (or equal) RPMs than your grinder. | 29653|29641|2012-12-13 23:30:03|Aaron|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Wild Get a matabo cut off disk go through from the outside the run 6010 / 6011 up or down which ever you are better at you get a full pen weld and no more crack. Try it with two 1/8 X 1" strips of flat bar edge to edge. cheep way to practice open root beads.  ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 5:37 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds   Some tack welds (on the inside of the hull) got cracked below bow hull's joint and along fore part of centerline (I put some tack welds where I could on outside of bow area as recommended). It was too much stress for tack welds made with low penetration 3/32" 6013 electrode. So, I decided to grind bad parts off and re-weld it with 5/32" 6013 and 1/8" 7024 (on flat). 7024 remelts tack welds very good. P.S. I should use 1/8" 6011 electrode for tack welding in that area (as Brent recommends). No problems at all on aft centerline. I think because hull shape was almost set after pulling several inches of aft part from midships. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > If it doesn't interfere with your stem bar, and is covered in epoxy and foam and never seen again, don' worry about it. Just put lots of weld on, and get the outside weld good and waterproof. > Too many people lose the dream by wasting huge amounts of time and money on things that don't matter. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29654|29641|2012-12-13 23:49:59|wild_explorer|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Hm-m-m-m... I did not even consider die grinder for weld removal. For some small polishing/spot_job? May be... I guess it is the same problem as with angle grinder - need to find good consumables/disks. For die grinder it is need to find good stones/heads. Is it possible to use metal milling tools with it? Using welding helmet with flip is a good idea (thanks to Brent and you). Especially heavy duty old ones and replace dark lens with clear one. I use face shield, but it gets scratched too easily - need to polish often. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Wild ... > > As Brent has noted, a die grinder is very handy skinny tool for getting into tight spots that an ordinary grinder can't reach. I've got a cheap air-operated one that looks just like this ... > > http://tinyurl.com/bpq6un4 > > You wouldn't think those little bits of stone that the die grinder uses would wear away steel; but they do! > > Brent has also mentioned that excellent face protection when grinding is to use one of the heavy, strong, old-fashioned, non-automatic welding helmets with the dark glass flipped up (there's still a fixed clear protective glass under the dark glass). The one I use looks like this ... > > http://tinyurl.com/cnqzxjr > > ... and it's great as a grinding protector. > > Yes, the steel guards on the grinders are there for a good reason and should always be left on; but everyone I know removes them - they usually just get in the way. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > PS: One of the great things about building a 26-footer is that the runs of weld that need grinding are shorter!! :-) > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, but I could not fit my 4-1/2 angle grinder with regular disk into a spot (the angle is too sharp there) and grinder just rests against the plates without disk touching the weld. Someone suggested to me to use bigger disk. > > > > First, I though about using 7" grinding or cut-off disk. Well... Beside being TOO unsafe (no guard, almost no room to grab handle of the grinder). It is DANGEROUS. 7" disk has rating about 8K RPM and my grinder has 11K RPM. Big disk might simply disintegrate without doing any work. 6" disk has about 10K RPMs rating - not good too. > > > > Finally in Home Depot I got Diablo 5 in. x 1/8 in. x 7/8 in. Dual Metal Cutting and Grinding Disc with Depressed Center (rating exceeds 11K RPMs). > > > > It works surprisingly well for welds grinding. Fast and easy. I could not use standard (4-1/2") safety guard and improvise some "guard". > > > > I hate grinding - it takes too long. I tried grinding as well as cut-off disks, but this disk makes fixing welds much easier. > > > > P.S. Check RPM rating of the disk and be sure that disk is rated for more (or equal) RPMs than your grinder. > | 29655|29641|2012-12-14 00:30:56|wild_explorer|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Aaron, I used some thin cut-off disk (0.04-0.045"???) to cut/grind some outside welds (which were cracked at the bow as well) where accessible. It worked well from outside. The problem with thin cut-off disks, it requires extra attention/control - easy to score the plate. Now I am in the area which is less than 15-10" from the ground - no way to get access to grind or weld from outside. So, I am repairing fore tack welds where needed (to pull the edges together) and fully welding centerline from inside (all other hull's joints and aft centerline already fully welded from inside). After welding tank top, I can safely lift the hull up, put it on a trailer and do outside welds. Just need to keep opening at midships for water draining - couple of days without rain are over. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Wild > Get a matabo cut off disk go through from the outside the run 6010 / 6011 up or down which ever you are better at you get a full pen weld and no more crack. > Try it with two 1/8 X 1" strips of flat bar edge to edge. cheep way to practice open root beads.  > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 5:37 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds > > >   > > Some tack welds (on the inside of the hull) got cracked below bow hull's joint and along fore part of centerline (I put some tack welds where I could on outside of bow area as recommended). > > It was too much stress for tack welds made with low penetration 3/32" 6013 electrode. So, I decided to grind bad parts off and re-weld it with 5/32" 6013 and 1/8" 7024 (on flat). 7024 remelts tack welds very good. > > P.S. I should use 1/8" 6011 electrode for tack welding in that area (as Brent recommends). > > No problems at all on aft centerline. I think because hull shape was almost set after pulling several inches of aft part from midships. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > If it doesn't interfere with your stem bar, and is covered in epoxy and foam and never seen again, don' worry about it. Just put lots of weld on, and get the outside weld good and waterproof. > > Too many people lose the dream by wasting huge amounts of time and money on things that don't matter. > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29656|29641|2012-12-14 06:34:08|Kim|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Hi Wild ... For what it's worth: I've been told that it's a really good idea not to do any continuous welding on any of the boats seams until pretty well the whole thing (hull, decks, cabin, the lot) has been tacked together. Doing it this way not only makes it easier to get everything together, I think it would also enhance the fairness of the finished product. A 2" tack every 6" or so is more than strong enough to hold everything together during construction. In fact, if it wasn't for the need to keep the water out, that's probably all the welding that would ever be required. Steel, and the welds that hold the bits together, is just so insanely strong! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Aaron, I used some thin cut-off disk (0.04-0.045"???) to cut/grind some outside welds (which were cracked at the bow as well) where accessible. It worked well from outside. The problem with thin cut-off disks, it requires extra attention/control - easy to score the plate. > > Now I am in the area which is less than 15-10" from the ground - no way to get access to grind or weld from outside. > > So, I am repairing fore tack welds where needed (to pull the edges together) and fully welding centerline from inside (all other hull's joints and aft centerline already fully welded from inside). After welding tank top, I can safely lift the hull up, put it on a trailer and do outside welds. Just need to keep opening at midships for water draining - couple of days without rain are over. | 29657|29641|2012-12-14 10:49:09|wild_explorer|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Kim, I think there is a big difference between folding/tacking 26, 36 and 40 footer. The forces are different. I did use 2" tacks with 6" between centers before with 3/32 E6013. After it got cracked in several places, I switched to 1/4" with 1" space between centers or 1/2" with 2" space. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/29444 The benefit is that tack welds have "more flexibility" and allow to change angle without braking. If the edges are shifted vertically in some area after seam is tacked, just make final weld in area where edges aligned perfectly and cut tacks where alignment needed and use sledge hammer to tap it in place. May be 1/8" 6011 electrode makes stronger tack welds (deeper penetration). I like that 3/32 E6013 tacks brake without putting too much stress on the plate. Yesterday I stepped on 3-4 inches tack weld which was cracked from the end, and it completely cracked all the way with loud bang. So, I prefer to fix/re-weld any weld suspected of cracking. And remelt other tack welds with final welds. I do not think that keeping tack welds until putting EVERYTHING together make a difference in fairness of the hull. It just allows some flexibility in changing angles between plates in the seams. Even "leveling" of the the hull (with lumber on bulwark pipe as a reference) just need some push on bulwark pipe for aligning of bow area (with chines jacked up). I even released winches for maintaining beam of the hull (left only one in bow area) to make the sides of the hull move outward, but it still maintain the beam pretty close what it is suppose to be. I tried to release chines' jacks, but it only make the hull to rotate along centerline. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Wild ... > > For what it's worth: I've been told that it's a really good idea not to do any continuous welding on any of the boats seams until pretty well the whole thing (hull, decks, cabin, the lot) has been tacked together. > > Doing it this way not only makes it easier to get everything together, I think it would also enhance the fairness of the finished product. > > A 2" tack every 6" or so is more than strong enough to hold everything together during construction. In fact, if it wasn't for the need to keep the water out, that's probably all the welding that would ever be required. Steel, and the welds that hold the bits together, is just so insanely strong! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > | 29658|29641|2012-12-14 11:24:30|Matt Malone|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|One benefit I would see to tacking only, until it is all together is, any water / moisture can drip out, it will not accumulate. Also, when the steel is warm from the sun, the hull will dehumidify faster, more air leaking in at the bottom. This means the steel will be drier earlier in the morning, even after some dew / condensation overnight. I found dew sitting in depressions most irritating. These small effects can add up to steel that is in better condition when it comes time to paint. If one is working inside a heated shop, or in a naturally dry climate, this might be less important. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:49:06 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds Kim, I think there is a big difference between folding/tacking 26, 36 and 40 footer. The forces are different. I did use 2" tacks with 6" between centers before with 3/32 E6013. After it got cracked in several places, I switched to 1/4" with 1" space between centers or 1/2" with 2" space. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/29444 The benefit is that tack welds have "more flexibility" and allow to change angle without braking. If the edges are shifted vertically in some area after seam is tacked, just make final weld in area where edges aligned perfectly and cut tacks where alignment needed and use sledge hammer to tap it in place. May be 1/8" 6011 electrode makes stronger tack welds (deeper penetration). I like that 3/32 E6013 tacks brake without putting too much stress on the plate. Yesterday I stepped on 3-4 inches tack weld which was cracked from the end, and it completely cracked all the way with loud bang. So, I prefer to fix/re-weld any weld suspected of cracking. And remelt other tack welds with final welds. I do not think that keeping tack welds until putting EVERYTHING together make a difference in fairness of the hull. It just allows some flexibility in changing angles between plates in the seams. Even "leveling" of the the hull (with lumber on bulwark pipe as a reference) just need some push on bulwark pipe for aligning of bow area (with chines jacked up). I even released winches for maintaining beam of the hull (left only one in bow area) to make the sides of the hull move outward, but it still maintain the beam pretty close what it is suppose to be. I tried to release chines' jacks, but it only make the hull to rotate along centerline. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Wild ... > > For what it's worth: I've been told that it's a really good idea not to do any continuous welding on any of the boats seams until pretty well the whole thing (hull, decks, cabin, the lot) has been tacked together. > > Doing it this way not only makes it easier to get everything together, I think it would also enhance the fairness of the finished product. > > A 2" tack every 6" or so is more than strong enough to hold everything together during construction. In fact, if it wasn't for the need to keep the water out, that's probably all the welding that would ever be required. Steel, and the welds that hold the bits together, is just so insanely strong! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29659|29641|2012-12-14 20:41:42|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|I’ve used it with a Lincoln IdealArc 250 and gotten good results. The more current the faster, but 150 amps will do the job on the steel thicknesses on a boat. You only need about 40 psi and maybe 10 CFM. Yes they do cost $300 new for a 450 amp torch, but because so few people know what they do they usually sell really cheap. You often see them for sale mistakenly listed as a welding rod holder. You can tell the difference by the round rod holding pads that swivel and have air holes. Gary H. Lucas From: wild_explorer Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 9:59 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds Are you talking about Carbon Arc Gouging torch? As I remember, arc gouging needs about 400-600A current. My AC welder trips the breaker welding with 180A after one 5/32 6013 rod ;) And what air pressure and air flow does arc gouging needs? About 40-80psi, 8-20cfm??? Price range is $300-500... Plus carbon electrodes :( Looks like it is from "nice-to-have" list. I tried arc gouging in welding class. Fast weld removal, but requires some practice. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Have you ever seen or HEARD of an Arcair torch? My brother dragged a backhoe bucket into his shop one day that had been twisted out on a job. He grabbed an acetylene cutting torch and I asked him what he was going to do with that? He said “ Just watch and learn!” Half an hour later he looks at me laughing at him and says “Okay what would you do?” I walked over to a drawer and pulled out an Arcair torch I had last used about 15 years ago. It was clear that no one knew what it was. I pulled out a copper coated carbon rod hooked up the air and proceeded to remove all the welds on one side of the bucket so cleanly that it was ready to reweld after it was straightened with almost no grinding. Another time a guy with an earth saw asked me to fix the cracks that went completely through the 1-1/2” thick wheel. A welder he hired to help me said it would take more than a day just to vee out the cracks. I pulled out the Arcair and in about half an hour we were welding from both sides right to the center. I used to remove and replace tooth pockets that were massively welded on to the wheel segments the same way. You can reach right down into the tightest corner to remove a weld. Great tool, cheap to buy cheap to operate, throws lots of sparks. Wear your earmuffs because you just can’t believe how noisy this thing is! > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: wild_explorer > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 12:14 AM > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Grinding disk for fixing welds > > > I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, but I could not fit my 4-1/2 angle grinder with regular disk into a spot (the angle is too sharp there) and grinder just rests against the plates without disk touching the weld. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29660|29641|2012-12-14 21:42:31|wild_explorer|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|I am dealing with the moisture and rain almost every day now ;) Actually, many things depends on the pattern's cut. For CNC cut pattern, tack welded half of the hull will hold water - I had to use a bucket after every rain. The benefit of hand-cut pattern that it will have some imperfections which will be enough for slow water draining. Even longitudinals, which just tack welded, hold the water in many places. Joined hull is different. I put tarp cover over bow area of the hull and I can see the difference between covered/uncovered areas. Covered area has almost no condensate on hull's inside. Condensate from outside will flow toward centerline and from top to bottom of the seam on outside. Water will sip through tack welds from outside to inside and keep centerline wet - very annoying if you need to work on centerline. Same probably would be with chine's seams (mine were fully welded from inside before joining the halves). Living several inches of tack welds at the lowest point of the hull (or draining hole would be enough for water draining. Hull dries in couple of hours if no rain and sunny weather. Takes longer if there is no sun. Costco heavy duty tarps are 12x16ft and have one silver reflective side and one dark colored side. Price is about $20 for set of 2. Easy to make cover with wood frame by resting 12ft 4x4 timber on bulwark pipes and some 16ft 2x6 lumber (on top of timber). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > One benefit I would see to tacking only, until it is all together is, any water / moisture can drip out, it will not accumulate. Also, when the steel is warm from the sun, the hull will dehumidify faster, more air leaking in at the bottom. This means the steel will be drier earlier in the morning, even after some dew / condensation overnight. I found dew sitting in depressions most irritating. These small effects can add up to steel that is in better condition when it comes time to paint. If one is working inside a heated shop, or in a naturally dry climate, this might be less important. > > Matt | 29661|29641|2012-12-14 22:51:03|wild_explorer|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|I see that Arcair K2000 (max 450A) needs 40psi/8cfm air supply and works with 1/8-1/4" carbon electrodes. Bigger holders are cheaper, but require much more air (80psi, >22cfm). Cost of 1/8" carbon electrodes is about $60 for 100 electrodes. Would be nice to have, but.... P.S. I found interesting that the same company makes electrodes for underwater welding ;), SEA-WELD 1/8"x14" 150-180A. About $500 for box of 150 electrodes. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I’ve used it with a Lincoln IdealArc 250 and gotten good results. The more current the faster, but 150 amps will do the job on the steel thicknesses on a boat. You only need about 40 psi and maybe 10 CFM. Yes they do cost $300 new for a 450 amp torch, but because so few people know what they do they usually sell really cheap. You often see them for sale mistakenly listed as a welding rod holder. You can tell the difference by the round rod holding pads that swivel and have air holes. > > Gary H. Lucas > | 29662|29641|2012-12-15 18:07:54|brentswain38|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Welds on the outside of the chines and centreline are far less likely to crack than the ones on the inside, because any hinging action is away from the weld. That is why it is a good idea to get 4 inch welds on the outside at the first opportunity. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Some tack welds (on the inside of the hull) got cracked below bow hull's joint and along fore part of centerline (I put some tack welds where I could on outside of bow area as recommended). > > It was too much stress for tack welds made with low penetration 3/32" 6013 electrode. So, I decided to grind bad parts off and re-weld it with 5/32" 6013 and 1/8" 7024 (on flat). 7024 remelts tack welds very good. > > P.S. I should use 1/8" 6011 electrode for tack welding in that area (as Brent recommends). > > No problems at all on aft centerline. I think because hull shape was almost set after pulling several inches of aft part from midships. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > If it doesn't interfere with your stem bar, and is covered in epoxy and foam and never seen again, don' worry about it. Just put lots of weld on, and get the outside weld good and waterproof. > > Too many people lose the dream by wasting huge amounts of time and money on things that don't matter. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > I was need to fix some welds in bow centerline, > | 29663|29641|2012-12-15 18:12:19|brentswain38|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Burning a small hole at the bottom of the centreline to let the water out and to sweep debris out is a god idea. It can be welded shut just before painting. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I am dealing with the moisture and rain almost every day now ;) > > Actually, many things depends on the pattern's cut. For CNC cut pattern, tack welded half of the hull will hold water - I had to use a bucket after every rain. The benefit of hand-cut pattern that it will have some imperfections which will be enough for slow water draining. Even longitudinals, which just tack welded, hold the water in many places. > > Joined hull is different. I put tarp cover over bow area of the hull and I can see the difference between covered/uncovered areas. > > Covered area has almost no condensate on hull's inside. Condensate from outside will flow toward centerline and from top to bottom of the seam on outside. Water will sip through tack welds from outside to inside and keep centerline wet - very annoying if you need to work on centerline. Same probably would be with chine's seams (mine were fully welded from inside before joining the halves). Living several inches of tack welds at the lowest point of the hull (or draining hole would be enough for water draining. > > Hull dries in couple of hours if no rain and sunny weather. Takes longer if there is no sun. > > Costco heavy duty tarps are 12x16ft and have one silver reflective side and one dark colored side. Price is about $20 for set of 2. Easy to make cover with wood frame by resting 12ft 4x4 timber on bulwark pipes and some 16ft 2x6 lumber (on top of timber). > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > One benefit I would see to tacking only, until it is all together is, any water / moisture can drip out, it will not accumulate. Also, when the steel is warm from the sun, the hull will dehumidify faster, more air leaking in at the bottom. This means the steel will be drier earlier in the morning, even after some dew / condensation overnight. I found dew sitting in depressions most irritating. These small effects can add up to steel that is in better condition when it comes time to paint. If one is working inside a heated shop, or in a naturally dry climate, this might be less important. > > > > Matt > | 29664|29664|2012-12-17 00:16:34|Mark Hamill|The DIY Metal Corrosion Survey|Pacific Yachting May 2010 Vol. 52 Number 5 has a corrosion detection and prevention article that some may find interesting. On Page 69 under Tinkering Tips there is an article on a sliding outboard bracket that would be easy to make-further to an outboard discussion some months back. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29665|29664|2012-12-17 08:15:52|Robert Jones|Re: The DIY Metal Corrosion Survey|Mark, would you please email me a link to the corrosion article. Robert pha7env@... --- On Sun, 12/16/12, Mark Hamill wrote: From: Mark Hamill Subject: [origamiboats] The DIY Metal Corrosion Survey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 10:16 PM   Pacific Yachting May 2010 Vol. 52 Number 5 has a corrosion detection and prevention article that some may find interesting. On Page 69 under Tinkering Tips there is an article on a sliding outboard bracket that would be easy to make-further to an outboard discussion some months back. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29666|29641|2012-12-17 19:40:07|David|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|We use to use them for rough cutting heavy gauge SS. They're very effective but pretty much fell into disuse with the development of cheap plasma cutters. I always new them as Airarcs. Dave --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I’ve used it with a Lincoln IdealArc 250 and gotten good results. The more current the faster, but 150 amps will do the job on the steel thicknesses on a boat. You only need about 40 psi and maybe 10 CFM. Yes they do cost $300 new for a 450 amp torch, but because so few people know what they do they usually sell really cheap. You often see them for sale mistakenly listed as a welding rod holder. You can tell the difference by the round rod holding pads that swivel and have air holes. > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: wild_explorer > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 9:59 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds > > > Are you talking about Carbon Arc Gouging torch? As I remember, arc gouging needs about 400-600A current. My AC welder trips the breaker welding with 180A after one 5/32 6013 rod ;) And what air pressure and air flow does arc gouging needs? About 40-80psi, 8-20cfm??? > > Price range is $300-500... Plus carbon electrodes :( Looks like it is from "nice-to-have" list. > > I tried arc gouging in welding class. Fast weld removal, but requires some practice. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Have you ever seen or HEARD of an Arcair torch? My brother dragged a backhoe bucket into his shop one day that had been twisted out on a job. He grabbed an acetylene cutting torch and I asked him what he was going to do with that? He said “ Just watch and learn!” Half an hour later he looks at me laughing at him and says “Okay what would you do?” I walked over to a drawer and pulled out an Arcair torch I had last used about 15 years ago. It was clear that no one knew what it was. I pulled out a copper coated carbon rod hooked up the air and proceeded to remove all the welds on one side of the bucket so cleanly that it was ready to reweld after it was straightened with almost no grinding. Another time a guy with an earth saw asked me to fix the cracks that went completely through the 1-1/2” thick wheel. A welder he hired to help me said it would take more than a day just to vee out the cracks. I pulled out the Arcair and in about half an hour we were welding from both sides right to the center. I used to remove and replace tooth pockets that were massively welded on to the wheel segments the same way. You can reach right down into the tightest corner to remove a weld. Great tool, cheap to buy cheap to operate, throws lots of sparks. Wear your earmuffs because you just can’t believe how noisy this thing is! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > | 29667|29664|2012-12-17 20:33:09|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: The DIY Metal Corrosion Survey|Thanks Mark...for the "heads up" on the Metal Corrosion Survey. I was able to find it today and I'll have a good look at it over the Holidays. Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2012-12-16, at 9:16 PM, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > Pacific Yachting May 2010 Vol. 52 Number 5 has a corrosion detection and > prevention article that some may find interesting. On Page 69 under > Tinkering Tips there is an article on a sliding outboard bracket that would > be easy to make-further to an outboard discussion some months back. MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29668|29283|2012-12-18 17:22:34|jim dorey|Re: Dry exhuast|brentswain38 wrote: > > > I did that on my last boat. No problem, but your loop could go under > water if you were heeled enough, and the high point of the loop is not > near enough to the centreline. I made a swing up extension to take it > below the waterline when upright. It had an anti siphon hole where it > left the hull. maybe a float in the exhaust tip to plug it if water goes in, and have an exhaust on each side to make it flow freely.| 29669|29664|2012-12-19 12:41:16|Tom Pee|Re: The DIY Metal Corrosion Survey|Bolger's "Shady Lady" metal boat is under survey to see if it can be saved. ________________________________ From: GORDON SCHNELL To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] The DIY Metal Corrosion Survey   Thanks Mark...for the "heads up" on the Metal Corrosion Survey. I was able to find it today and I'll have a good look at it over the Holidays. Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2012-12-16, at 9:16 PM, "Mark Hamill" wrote: > Pacific Yachting May 2010 Vol. 52 Number 5 has a corrosion detection and > prevention article that some may find interesting. On Page 69 under > Tinkering Tips there is an article on a sliding outboard bracket that would > be easy to make-further to an outboard discussion some months back. MarkH > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29670|29283|2012-12-19 17:04:59|brentswain38|Re: Dry exhuast|A single exhaust within 18 inches of the centreline is all you need. A rubber flap over the underwater part, made from the sidewall of a tire lasts many years, and works well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jim dorey wrote: > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > I did that on my last boat. No problem, but your loop could go under > > water if you were heeled enough, and the high point of the loop is not > > near enough to the centreline. I made a swing up extension to take it > > below the waterline when upright. It had an anti siphon hole where it > > left the hull. > > maybe a float in the exhaust tip to plug it if water goes in, and have > an exhaust on each side to make it flow freely. > | 29671|29671|2012-12-21 14:25:42|ragnarpar|differences|so, looking at both the 31 and the 36, please: what are the twin keel drafts, lead ballast requirements and mast heights? if someone has built both, is there a tremendous difference in ease or difficulty of building between the two??? Thanks for any help and input. Ragnar| 29672|29671|2012-12-21 14:31:48|brentswain38|Re: differences|Both draw roughly 4 ft in the twin keel version, depending on how much junk you load aboard. The 31 has 3500 lbs of ballast, the 36, 4500 lbs of ballast , plus the weight of the steel for the keels themselves. The mast on the 31 is 40 feet , but I'm considering making it a bit higher. For the 36 it's 46 feet. There is not a huge difference in building the 31, from the 36. All the details , bow roller, mooring bits, cleats , hatches etc etc, are the same , but the 36 sells for three times what the 31 sells for. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > so, looking at both the 31 and the 36, please: > what are the twin keel drafts, lead ballast requirements and mast heights? if someone has built both, is there a tremendous difference in ease or difficulty of building between the two??? > Thanks for any help and input. > Ragnar > | 29673|19001|2012-12-21 14:37:09|brentswain38|Common screwups|The front web of the engine mounts forms the engine drip pan, which contains oil leaks from the engine, and prevents them from from running the full length of the bilge, and also contains stuffing box drips. On one 36, I welded this web in. Then Evan cut a big hole in the bottom, to allow oil from the engine to run the full length of the bilge. I hope to weld it shut again this spring. This is typically what happens when someone with little boating experience tries redesigning things he has zero experience with.| 29674|29641|2012-12-21 20:01:41|jim dorey|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|wild_explorer wrote: > > > Hm-m-m-m... I did not even consider die grinder for weld removal. For > some small polishing/spot_job? May be... > > I guess it is the same problem as with angle grinder - need to find good > consumables/disks. For die grinder it is need to find good stones/heads. > > Is it possible to use metal milling tools with it? most die grinder kits, electric or air, have several milling bits with them, if the tool has a properly sized collet, it'll work. the farm/auto tool supply up here has separate kits of them, carbide or better, in the surplus section, pretty cheap too.| 29675|29641|2012-12-22 11:35:40|James Pronk|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|I have a die drinder like this one. http://www.harborfreight.com/electric-die-grinder-with-long-shaft-44141.html Make sure you use good sharp carbide cutters with it, the double cut ones that are for steel. This is the type I use most. http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=carbide+die+grinder+bits&hl=en&sa=X&tbo=d&rlz=1T4ADFA_enCA441CA441&biw=1280&bih=639&tbm=isch&tbnid=Qs0wMIdJaHiczM:&imgrefurl=http://www.raktron.com/wallmount/index.html&docid=DM7Lbjy8-eID_M&imgurl=http://www.raktron.com/wallmount/08_countersink.jpg&w=800&h=533&ei=vuDVUO3dKJKo0AGU5IHIDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=962&vpy=131&dur=2118&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=218&ty=106&sig=118409210349862267861&page=1&tbnh=141&tbnw=199&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0,i:106 --- On Fri, 12/21/12, jim dorey wrote: From: jim dorey Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, December 21, 2012, 8:01 PM   wild_explorer wrote: > > > Hm-m-m-m... I did not even consider die grinder for weld removal. For > some small polishing/spot_job? May be... > > I guess it is the same problem as with angle grinder - need to find good > consumables/disks. For die grinder it is need to find good stones/heads. > > Is it possible to use metal milling tools with it? most die grinder kits, electric or air, have several milling bits with them, if the tool has a properly sized collet, it'll work. the farm/auto tool supply up here has separate kits of them, carbide or better, in the surplus section, pretty cheap too. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29676|29641|2012-12-22 15:38:38|brentswain38|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|My die grinder cost me $22. Should have bough one decades ago.Very handy tool, especially for cleaning out dings and rust spots, for maintenance. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jim dorey wrote: > > wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > Hm-m-m-m... I did not even consider die grinder for weld removal. For > > some small polishing/spot_job? May be... > > > > I guess it is the same problem as with angle grinder - need to find good > > consumables/disks. For die grinder it is need to find good stones/heads. > > > > Is it possible to use metal milling tools with it? > > most die grinder kits, electric or air, have several milling bits with > them, if the tool has a properly sized collet, it'll work. the > farm/auto tool supply up here has separate kits of them, carbide or > better, in the surplus section, pretty cheap too. > | 29677|29641|2012-12-22 15:45:51|brentswain38|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Bear in mind that much polishing of stainless detail can be done after you get out cruising, in some peaceful anchorage. A die grinder can do a lot of this, at minimum amperage draw. Grind and polish only that which can't be reached after you are out cruising. The rest you can do as a hobby, after you escape to reality. It is also easier and safer to grind bits and pieces after they have been welded down, than while they are separate, and hard to hold on to, bits and pieces. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > My die grinder cost me $22. Should have bough one decades ago.Very handy tool, especially for cleaning out dings and rust spots, for maintenance. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jim dorey wrote: > > > > wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hm-m-m-m... I did not even consider die grinder for weld removal. For > > > some small polishing/spot_job? May be... > > > > > > I guess it is the same problem as with angle grinder - need to find good > > > consumables/disks. For die grinder it is need to find good stones/heads. > > > > > > Is it possible to use metal milling tools with it? > > > > most die grinder kits, electric or air, have several milling bits with > > them, if the tool has a properly sized collet, it'll work. the > > farm/auto tool supply up here has separate kits of them, carbide or > > better, in the surplus section, pretty cheap too. > > > | 29678|29678|2012-12-23 09:32:26|Jonathan Stevens|Wild's Boat|Wild, It gives me much pleasure to see your boat coming together. You have been so methodical and questioning, most answers having benefited many others on the list, and have shared your "discoveries". Keep up the hard work. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29679|29641|2012-12-24 14:59:30|Jimmy Noble|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|Can you remove me from this thread On Dec 22, 2012 3:38 PM, "brentswain38" wrote: > ** > > > My die grinder cost me $22. Should have bough one decades ago.Very handy > tool, especially for cleaning out dings and rust spots, for maintenance. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jim dorey wrote: > > > > wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hm-m-m-m... I did not even consider die grinder for weld removal. For > > > some small polishing/spot_job? May be... > > > > > > I guess it is the same problem as with angle grinder - need to find > good > > > consumables/disks. For die grinder it is need to find good > stones/heads. > > > > > > Is it possible to use metal milling tools with it? > > > > most die grinder kits, electric or air, have several milling bits with > > them, if the tool has a properly sized collet, it'll work. the > > farm/auto tool supply up here has separate kits of them, carbide or > > better, in the surplus section, pretty cheap too. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29680|29678|2012-12-25 17:57:02|wild_explorer|Re: Wild's Boat|Thank you, Jonathan, for your kind words. I hope, that my transformation from "non-believer asking too many questions" into "one man crew" building his own origami 39ft boat, speaks for itself in favor of OrigamiBoat design ;)) I would like to thank this group's members who share their knowledge, ideas and experience. I want especially thanks Brent for sharing his expertise and answering many questions about origami boat building. Without Brent and this group my project would not be possible. THANKS! I would not say that OrigamiBoat fits everyone, but it works for my intended application. From my own experience, I can say: "OrigamiBoat can be build by one man with limited tools without braking someone's back". But.. If you want to build your boat by yourself, learn welding first! It really helps. OrigamiBoat will be as precise as you want to make it. It depends how careful you are in cutting the pattern. So far, for CNC cut pattern, I was able to keep joining tolerances (assembly of the hull) to no more than 1mm (or 1/24") - simply "no gaps". This is big overkill for the boat - it just shows possibility of Origami design. Now, I am facing the hardest part of the project... The hull is up and it is time to decide which way to go. Sailboat, fishing or utility/support boat? I tried to design the hull which could be used for different applications without hull's shape change. It will require different single/tween/no keel, super structure, engine power, tankage. I re-checked stability, and this hull may be used for fishing/crab/lobster boat with about 25t displacement (same length, about the same total draft) and possibility to use thicker plate for the hull (it needs ballast anyway). P.S. I was thinking about making pictorial of my project, but after starting the project, it became lowest priority (even I am taking pictures of my project regularly). I will put some pictures (which may be interesting to others) in group's Photos section. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Wild, > > It gives me much pleasure to see your boat coming together. You have been so > methodical and questioning, most answers having benefited many others on the > list, and have shared your "discoveries". > > Keep up the hard work. > > Jonathan. | 29681|29678|2012-12-25 18:14:01|martin demers|Re: Wild's Boat|Wild, Howcome you are building 39ft boat? did you stretch the 36 or shorthened the 40? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 22:56:58 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wild's Boat Thank you, Jonathan, for your kind words. I hope, that my transformation from "non-believer asking too many questions" into "one man crew" building his own origami 39ft boat, speaks for itself in favor of OrigamiBoat design ;)) I would like to thank this group's members who share their knowledge, ideas and experience. I want especially thanks Brent for sharing his expertise and answering many questions about origami boat building. Without Brent and this group my project would not be possible. THANKS! I would not say that OrigamiBoat fits everyone, but it works for my intended application. From my own experience, I can say: "OrigamiBoat can be build by one man with limited tools without braking someone's back". But.. If you want to build your boat by yourself, learn welding first! It really helps. OrigamiBoat will be as precise as you want to make it. It depends how careful you are in cutting the pattern. So far, for CNC cut pattern, I was able to keep joining tolerances (assembly of the hull) to no more than 1mm (or 1/24") - simply "no gaps". This is big overkill for the boat - it just shows possibility of Origami design. Now, I am facing the hardest part of the project... The hull is up and it is time to decide which way to go. Sailboat, fishing or utility/support boat? I tried to design the hull which could be used for different applications without hull's shape change. It will require different single/tween/no keel, super structure, engine power, tankage. I re-checked stability, and this hull may be used for fishing/crab/lobster boat with about 25t displacement (same length, about the same total draft) and possibility to use thicker plate for the hull (it needs ballast anyway). P.S. I was thinking about making pictorial of my project, but after starting the project, it became lowest priority (even I am taking pictures of my project regularly). I will put some pictures (which may be interesting to others) in group's Photos section. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Wild, > > It gives me much pleasure to see your boat coming together. You have been so > methodical and questioning, most answers having benefited many others on the > list, and have shared your "discoveries". > > Keep up the hard work. > > Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29682|29678|2012-12-25 20:50:22|wild_explorer|Re: Wild's Boat|Short answer: It is different hull. Long answer: If you may remember, originally I wanted more headroom. I do not like low ceilings. I wanted slightly different hull shape as well. Brent's boat hull shape is more suitable for a sailboat. So, I started to draw my "dream boat" in 3D. I had several hull shapes (similar with some variations) and I did not want to replicate BrentBoat. Brent does not want to make changes to his very well proven design and I am completely agree with his approach. Brent is generous man, and he helped me to choose more suitable 3D shape for origami design and a sailboat. He gave me some helpful practical advices as well, which I tried to fit into this hull. That is 3D hull's shape I am using in this project. I cannot claim that this is completely mine design. I would say, it is "joint venture" in which Brent has contributed a lot of his knowledge and experience. If you look at the pictures of the hull, it has similar appearance, but you can see the differences as well. Basically, I went for the look ;)) There is a possibility to reduce total welding length of the seams in this hull, but I will need to re-design the pattern and build another hull to verify it ;) So far, 3D fits pretty good in real project. P.S. To be honest, after looking at "With Amazing Grace" (Brent's designed 40 footer), it turned out that she has huge room inside. But I was already too bonded with my project and benefit to use it not only as a sailboat, made me keep this 3D project alive (continue to play with hull shapes). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Wild, > > Howcome you are building 39ft boat? > did you stretch the 36 or shorthened the 40? > > Martin > | 29683|29678|2012-12-26 09:00:18|martin demers|Re: Wild's Boat|Ok, sounds interesting. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 01:50:20 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wild's Boat Short answer: It is different hull. Long answer: If you may remember, originally I wanted more headroom. I do not like low ceilings. I wanted slightly different hull shape as well. Brent's boat hull shape is more suitable for a sailboat. So, I started to draw my "dream boat" in 3D. I had several hull shapes (similar with some variations) and I did not want to replicate BrentBoat. Brent does not want to make changes to his very well proven design and I am completely agree with his approach. Brent is generous man, and he helped me to choose more suitable 3D shape for origami design and a sailboat. He gave me some helpful practical advices as well, which I tried to fit into this hull. That is 3D hull's shape I am using in this project. I cannot claim that this is completely mine design. I would say, it is "joint venture" in which Brent has contributed a lot of his knowledge and experience. If you look at the pictures of the hull, it has similar appearance, but you can see the differences as well. Basically, I went for the look ;)) There is a possibility to reduce total welding length of the seams in this hull, but I will need to re-design the pattern and build another hull to verify it ;) So far, 3D fits pretty good in real project. P.S. To be honest, after looking at "With Amazing Grace" (Brent's designed 40 footer), it turned out that she has huge room inside. But I was already too bonded with my project and benefit to use it not only as a sailboat, made me keep this 3D project alive (continue to play with hull shapes). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Wild, > > Howcome you are building 39ft boat? > did you stretch the 36 or shorthened the 40? > > Martin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29684|29678|2012-12-26 16:32:32|martin demers|Re: Wild's Boat|Wich thickness did you used for the hull?How tall will it be inside the cabin? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 01:50:20 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wild's Boat Short answer: It is different hull. Long answer: If you may remember, originally I wanted more headroom. I do not like low ceilings. I wanted slightly different hull shape as well. Brent's boat hull shape is more suitable for a sailboat. So, I started to draw my "dream boat" in 3D. I had several hull shapes (similar with some variations) and I did not want to replicate BrentBoat. Brent does not want to make changes to his very well proven design and I am completely agree with his approach. Brent is generous man, and he helped me to choose more suitable 3D shape for origami design and a sailboat. He gave me some helpful practical advices as well, which I tried to fit into this hull. That is 3D hull's shape I am using in this project. I cannot claim that this is completely mine design. I would say, it is "joint venture" in which Brent has contributed a lot of his knowledge and experience. If you look at the pictures of the hull, it has similar appearance, but you can see the differences as well. Basically, I went for the look ;)) There is a possibility to reduce total welding length of the seams in this hull, but I will need to re-design the pattern and build another hull to verify it ;) So far, 3D fits pretty good in real project. P.S. To be honest, after looking at "With Amazing Grace" (Brent's designed 40 footer), it turned out that she has huge room inside. But I was already too bonded with my project and benefit to use it not only as a sailboat, made me keep this 3D project alive (continue to play with hull shapes). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Wild, > > Howcome you are building 39ft boat? > did you stretch the 36 or shorthened the 40? > > Martin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29685|29678|2012-12-26 19:39:37|wild_explorer|Re: Wild's Boat|I used 3/16" (~5mm) steel for the hull. The same as Brent recommends for his 36 and 40 foot sailboats. It is about maximum plate thickness for origami sailboat hull of this size. And minimum thickness for 40ft plate (as I was told by supplier). After thinking about using this hull for fishing/utility boat, I could use 1/4" (~6.5mm) plate for the hull. May be thicker, but it could be harder to fold the hull. In 3D, I tried to keep minimum headroom for sailboat hull (with tween keels, space for foaming and about 0.5t integral tank), to no less than 1.9m (6.2ft) through-out inside the hull (flash deck). I would not use flash deck for sure on a sailboat, so it will be more. In the cabin, headroom will be probably > 2.2m (7.2ft), more likely more - it will depend on the final look of the boat with superstructure, stability and windage requirements. Headroom in a pilothouse should not be less than in a cabin. I am playing with different usage and structures in 3D now, to decide what to make from this hull... It is raining last several days, not much welding work could be done in the areas covered by tarp ;) Fishing boat may require 3-5t integral tank and fish-tank. It will affect useable living space. Minimum headroom would not be less than 1.9m (6.2ft) in living space - it needs cabin/pilothouse anyway. And fishing boat allows higher pilothouse and cabin (different superstructure arrangement than for a sailboat). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Wich thickness did you used for the hull?How tall will it be inside the cabin? > > Martin. > | 29686|29641|2012-12-27 14:40:59|haidan|Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds|good to see that the boat is coming along, So what was the final story? I remember you had trouble finding both a place to build and shop primed plate, looks as though you found both and you got the plate cut with a CNC. Where did you end up finding it all?| 29687|29687|2012-12-27 15:10:13|deniswig|HAPPY CHRISTMAS FROM IRELAND|HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL ESPECIALLY THOSE NUTS WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT GRINDING WELDS ON CHRISTMAS DAY - GET A LIFE AND SOME STUFFED TURKEY WITH ALL THE TRIMMINGS AND TRY AND BE GENEROUS IN MIND BODY AND SPIRIT .. DENIS BUGGY| 29688|29687|2012-12-27 21:14:49|wild_explorer|Happy Holiday Season (was Re: HAPPY CHRISTMAS FROM IRELAND)|Denis, were you on Santa's naughty list? If to talk about "general" Christmas... Be nice! If to talk about religious holiday, not everybody should share YOUR believes. It is boat building forum ;)) P.S. Personally, I respect in what people believe (religious, politic, etc) until they allow others to believe what they want as well. And do it in proper place... P.S.S. Happy holidays season! Any someone celebrates... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "deniswig" wrote: > > HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL ESPECIALLY THOSE NUTS WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT GRINDING WELDS ON CHRISTMAS DAY - GET A LIFE AND SOME STUFFED TURKEY WITH ALL THE TRIMMINGS AND TRY AND BE GENEROUS IN MIND BODY AND SPIRIT .. DENIS BUGGY > | 29689|29641|2012-12-27 21:54:54|wild_explorer|Project Planning (Re: Grinding disk for fixing welds)|Haidan, you are absolutely correct. I had all those troubles in the area with long history of boats/ships building. Portland, Oregon. The main problem, 2-3 40ft 3/16" plates is very small order. Companies supplying plates for ship building do not want to bother with such small order. Most suppliers have only 20 or 30 ft plates in stock. All steel suppliers usually send plates for wheelabrating and priming to a third party (another company). Steel suppliers for shipbuilding, do not stock gauge material (1/8" plates). That why I ordered only 3/16" plates (need to order 1/8" plates now). And they have big CNC cutting tables to handle material they sell. It is easier (and cheaper) to find plates if you need CNC cutting. I suspect, simply because if some plate have defect somewhere, it is possible to arrange parts different way and defect goes into drops. I found the company which had 40ft 3/16" plates, send it for abrating/priming, CNC cut it, and delivers. All-in-one (they deal with other companies). I had to get flatbars and angles from another steel supplier, bring and pick it up by myself for wheelabriting/priming and it was more expensive counting by weight. The hardest part was to find place to build a boat by welding. We had that discussion in the group. Final I got lucky and found couple places to build. Farm and industrial place. For several reasons I went for industrial place - less troubles to make noise. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > good to see that the boat is coming along, So what was the final story? I remember you had trouble finding both a place to build and shop primed plate, looks as though you found both and you got the plate cut with a CNC. Where did you end up finding it all? > | 29690|29687|2012-12-28 06:14:36|Robert Jones|Re: Happy Holiday Season (was Re: HAPPY CHRISTMAS FROM IRELAND)|Wild Explorer, The Season is celebrated to recognize the Birthday of Jesus Christ! No other reason. It is a Christian, religious holiday. To call it anything else is not only incorrect, but offensive. When you say you "respect" what people believe in, then live by your words and please don't chastise people like Denis who just want to wish others good will! Now should anyone preach or teach of religion or politics, or anything else that non boating, then, by all means bring the hammer down. But not on an innocently wished, and correctly phrased, phrase meant to wish others a good day! Thank you, Robert Jones --- On Thu, 12/27/12, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Happy Holiday Season (was Re: HAPPY CHRISTMAS FROM IRELAND) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, December 27, 2012, 7:14 PM   Denis, were you on Santa's naughty list? If to talk about "general" Christmas... Be nice! If to talk about religious holiday, not everybody should share YOUR believes. It is boat building forum ;)) P.S. Personally, I respect in what people believe (religious, politic, etc) until they allow others to believe what they want as well. And do it in proper place... P.S.S. Happy holidays season! Any someone celebrates... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "deniswig" wrote: > > HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL ESPECIALLY THOSE NUTS WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT GRINDING WELDS ON CHRISTMAS DAY - GET A LIFE AND SOME STUFFED TURKEY WITH ALL THE TRIMMINGS AND TRY AND BE GENEROUS IN MIND BODY AND SPIRIT .. DENIS BUGGY > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29691|29687|2012-12-28 10:24:14|wild_explorer|Happy Holiday Season (was Re: HAPPY CHRISTMAS FROM IRELAND)|Robert, I was referring to the part of Denis' message "ESPECIALLY THOSE NUTS" and not what Denis celebrates (it is up to him). May be I had to call it just "celebrating days", not "holidays". There are lot of different days what people celebrate at the end/beginning of the year. OK. Happy New Year! Which have different day too in different cultures ;))| 29692|29692|2012-12-28 10:55:47|SHANE ROTHWELL|Car Axel/CV joints for prop shaft.|Hey Guys,   Ya, I've done it.   with a drive shaft out of a 5 tonne truck I can confirm that it's dead easy, maybe a bit overbuilt (which would be a fault?)  works a treat, cheap as chips & gives you something you can work with (as opposed to a customer services rep at aquadrive or of their ilk. If done prop0erly, teh only thing it will ever need is greese   I had a Perkins  4.108 with a hurth gear box (2.1:1...?..... s' been a while) pushing 13 ton w a 3 blade  16 x 12"...? (again. s'been a while) prop. Perkins mounted level. No issues with lube. Had to fab a plate to match up the universal joint with the flange on the output shaft of the gearbox & shorten the shaft of course. Another plate needed to be fab'd for the aft end, universal jernt to inboard end of the prop shaft that is. Before mounting the engine I just slid her back & forth on the mounting surfaces before I glassed in teh bases of the mounts so allignment was abusolutely dead easy, just split the differance for the angle you set the drive shaft at for even wear of universals. The only tech info I bothered to confirm (other than a few beers as thanks) was calling izuzu to confirm would not be exceeding anle & speed at which to run the universals.   I'm no engineer,  but I'd not trust an automotive universal for this, just too light. who's racing anyway? another 5kg & $10? and the potential down side? Just not worth it in my book. Overbuild it, keep it well lubed & sleep well.   Wish I'd known about universals flying to bits! yowza! I'd go with a steel cover as recommended! Thanks Matt!   Coupla basics: -for the end load you need a "plumbers block" this deals with it. I think it was about $20. counter sink the spots  where the grub screws land on the drive shaft to be sure that there is no chance of the shaft coming free & sliding forward or aft, a drop of locktight & your good.    I was able to get away with one plumbers block, but have seen a boat the guy needed 2 of them to keep the drive shaft in allignment ( splitting the differance for even wear of universals)   be sure to get a drive shaft on which the universals have greece nipplies. and use them regularly. & while your at it put a threaded greese fitting into your stuffing box just over the 2nd wrap from the fwd end. Just buy a cheap manual greese gun & connect it to that & run it up & mount it by the helm. Any decent greese is good, no fancy stuff needed & once loaded, one shot/hr underway & you will never have a problem with it   don't forget to put the plumbers block (s) onto the shortened drive shaft BEFORE you weld it back up together!   & the rule of thumb is... if you hard mount your engine, soft mount your shaft, & verse visa, so you want soft mounts with this set up.   Cheers & Merry Ho Ho! Shane         Second that about failures of u-joints, and protection. An extreme example, but I have seen the u-joint failure in the drive shaft between the engine and transmission of a bus punch a hole clean up through the floor of the bus and dent the stainless steel hand rails and the ceiling. There were needle bearings all over everything. Good thing the bus was nearly empty at the time. Later models of the bus had a beefy arch of 3/16" or 1/4" steel over that area and bolted down to the frame on either side of the driveshaft. Matt To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com From: brentswain38@ hotmail.com Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 21:28:09 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft Friends have done it, with a thrust bearing in front of the stuffing box.It works well.Front wheel drive cars have two on a short shaft. On my last engine, a ten HP Hat, I replaced the couplings with a U joint. Worked well, no problems, but I have heard of a wooden boat which had one sheer off, and the flailing parts punched a hole in the hull.No chance of that with a steel hull, but with a U joint, some kind of cover would be a good idea. No chance of a CV joint twisting off, they are much stronger. Grossly over priced marine versions are a scam. Get yours at the auto wreckers. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Realistically, if you look at the CV joints from automotive sources, please take into account a large factor of safety. > > If you look at a FWD car, and take the car horsepower, and divide by two, maybe you think you are getting an idea of the horsepower carried through those joints to one wheel. A very important distinction is, this is *peak* horsepower that cars only approach in stomp-on-it acceleration. Often when one stomps on it, there are some noises coming from cheap car parts -- noise does not speak well for service life. Boat horsepower is different, because you will operate for long periods of time under sustained load at a good fraction of peak loads. > > I am not sure what factor of safety you might apply, but, if you have a 40 hp boat motor, I would start by looking at CV joints for a V8, 4wd truck or something heavier, not a little 80 hp four-banger hatchback like one might guess by dividing 80hp by 2 to get 40hp. If I had a 20 hp engine, then I might look at parts in the full-sized FWD sedan ballpark. I would sooner buy a bigger, cheaper, common one, and carry a spare. I also think an auto recycling yard is not a bad place to shop, because it is probable you can get a matching set of 4 and two shafts from one vehicle -- your main and spare in one shot. > > Remember, with a boat, you have exact control over the geometry of the > mounting, it does not change with suspension travel like in a car. You can have two properly oriented universals, and an intermediate angle > in your connecting shaft, and accomplish the same thing as the CV > joint. Vibration would arise from the acceleration and deceleration of > the connecting shaft as the universals work through a revolution. > > There > are also big CV joints on really big rear wheel drive sedans. My 1974 > Buick LeSabre (455-V8) has one. There must be more modern RWD sedans that do. > If one can cut and weld a boat, cutting and welding a driveshaft to make > it shorter is not much. > > Beware of big, primative, spring-loaded "CV" joints, like the one in my 1974 Buick LeSabre. They are essentially 2 universals and a 4 inch intermediate shaft with spring pressure keeping the angles equal. It seems to me these might put extra loads on bearings and seals when running at a constant angle. The newer technology sphere and cup type, as far as I know, do not require preloading and hence would put less load on other components. You can tell immediately when you hold them in your hands if a CV uses a spring preload -- it will try to straighten instead of flop over. > > If you have a 60 - 80hp boat motor in a 60 footer, you are going to > have more trouble finding common parts heavy enough, without getting too > bulky, i.e. dump truck. But then again, you are already used > to paying a lot more for parts. (Kim & his 26' may laugh all the > way to the bank now.) > > My main complaint with rock crawlers would be, cost and availability of replacements, or double cost to pre-purchase spares. > > Matt > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: pha7env@... > Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 07:23:54 -0800 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It should help, if combined with pillar bearing. Might take two to offset each other for total alignment. But nothing solves any problem totally. Everyone with a product to sell, wants you to believe it is the best. I would say that CV joints are neither "snake oil" or "cure oil". But easily can be done for well under $1500. Find an offroad shop that specializes in Rock Crawlers or even Mud Racing, and they can steer you to hardened CV joints that will fit your app for 2-500$(US). If you can get the max torque in psi that you feel your shaft experiences, i will try to help find one for you. Used to build rock crawlers before i got smart and decided to go back to the water! good luck, robert > > > > --- On Wed, 11/28/12, martin demers wrote: > > > > From: martin demers > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: car axle /cv joints for propeller shaft > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 7:20 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29693|29687|2012-12-28 12:25:01|badpirate36|Happy Holiday Season (was Re: HAPPY CHRISTMAS FROM IRELAND)|Robert, Christmas isn't just for christians anymore. You gotta learn to share /.o) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Wild Explorer, The Season is celebrated to recognize the Birthday of Jesus Christ! No other reason. It is a Christian, religious holiday. To call it anything else is not only incorrect, but offensive. When you say you "respect" what people believe in, then live by your words and please don't chastise people like Denis who just want to wish others good will! Now should anyone preach or teach of religion or politics, or anything else that non boating, then, by all means bring the hammer down. But not on an innocently wished, and correctly phrased, phrase meant to wish others a good day! Thank you, Robert Jones > > --- On Thu, 12/27/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Happy Holiday Season (was Re: HAPPY CHRISTMAS FROM IRELAND) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, December 27, 2012, 7:14 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Denis, were you on Santa's naughty list? If to talk about "general" Christmas... Be nice! > > > > If to talk about religious holiday, not everybody should share YOUR believes. It is boat building forum ;)) > > > > P.S. Personally, I respect in what people believe (religious, politic, etc) until they allow others to believe what they want as well. And do it in proper place... > > P.S.S. Happy holidays season! Any someone celebrates... > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "deniswig" wrote: > > > > > > HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL ESPECIALLY THOSE NUTS WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT GRINDING WELDS ON CHRISTMAS DAY - GET A LIFE AND SOME STUFFED TURKEY WITH ALL THE TRIMMINGS AND TRY AND BE GENEROUS IN MIND BODY AND SPIRIT .. DENIS BUGGY > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29694|29641|2012-12-28 15:02:40|haidan|Project Planning|Oh I forgot you were down in the portland area, too bad, I was just down there visiting family. I'm going to make a trip to some scrap yards in tacoma it seems to be where all the crap metal for the puget sound get collected for shipping overseas, I've got to make some calls around to make sure they'll sell to the public before I head up there, I'll let you know what I find. I imagine stainless stock is next on the list after the deck plating. Do you have any good sources for stainless in the area?| 29695|29687|2012-12-28 16:25:55|Paul Thompson|Re: Happy Holiday Season (was Re: HAPPY CHRISTMAS FROM IRELAND)|Actually, it is a holiday of pagan origin that the Christians adopted. On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Robert Jones wrote: > Wild Explorer, The Season is celebrated to recognize the Birthday of Jesus Christ! No other reason. It is a Christian, religious holiday. To call it anything else is not only incorrect, but offensive. When you say you "respect" what people believe in, then live by your words and please don't chastise people like Denis who just want to wish others good will! Now should anyone preach or teach of religion or politics, or anything else that non boating, then, by all means bring the hammer down. But not on an innocently wished, and correctly phrased, phrase meant to wish others a good day! Thank you, Robert Jones | 29696|29687|2012-12-28 16:49:21|brentswain38|Happy Holiday Season (was Re: HAPPY CHRISTMAS FROM IRELAND)|Merry solstice! This season has been celebrated as the solstice, when the days stopped getting shorter, since neanderthal times. The Christian superstitions just co -opted it from existing religions.Easier to simply slap a new label on it. At any rate , thankfully , crappy music season has finally ended. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > Robert, Christmas isn't just for christians anymore. You gotta learn to share /.o) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > > > Wild Explorer, The Season is celebrated to recognize the Birthday of Jesus Christ! No other reason. It is a Christian, religious holiday. To call it anything else is not only incorrect, but offensive. When you say you "respect" what people believe in, then live by your words and please don't chastise people like Denis who just want to wish others good will! Now should anyone preach or teach of religion or politics, or anything else that non boating, then, by all means bring the hammer down. But not on an innocently wished, and correctly phrased, phrase meant to wish others a good day! Thank you, Robert Jones > > > > --- On Thu, 12/27/12, wild_explorer wrote: > > > > From: wild_explorer > > Subject: [origamiboats] Happy Holiday Season (was Re: HAPPY CHRISTMAS FROM IRELAND) > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, December 27, 2012, 7:14 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis, were you on Santa's naughty list? If to talk about "general" Christmas... Be nice! > > > > > > > > If to talk about religious holiday, not everybody should share YOUR believes. It is boat building forum ;)) > > > > > > > > P.S. Personally, I respect in what people believe (religious, politic, etc) until they allow others to believe what they want as well. And do it in proper place... > > > > P.S.S. Happy holidays season! Any someone celebrates... > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "deniswig" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL ESPECIALLY THOSE NUTS WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT GRINDING WELDS ON CHRISTMAS DAY - GET A LIFE AND SOME STUFFED TURKEY WITH ALL THE TRIMMINGS AND TRY AND BE GENEROUS IN MIND BODY AND SPIRIT .. DENIS BUGGY > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 29697|29641|2012-12-28 21:34:00|wild_explorer|Re: Project Planning|It is too bad, Haidan, I did not know you were in this area. I missed the opportunity to ask you many questions ;) There are lot of big scrap yards around here (Portland). The problem - they only BUY scrap. They do not sell metal to public. Several small scrap yards stopped selling metal to public as well. Even small yards so busy chopping metal, that walking around public is just a liability issue. I know about 2 small scrap yards who sells SS, but it could be comparable with the price for new SS if you shop around. And they have limited metal (what they think is usable) placed in one area - no picking from pile. And they have no idea (just guessing) what SS grade is. So, you will not be able to casually walk like on Alex's video looking for what you need. Big scrap yards will sell SS only container-size order, by weight without possibility of picking. It would be nice to walk around scrap yard and see what you can use for you project. Unfortunately it is not the case here. Price of steel is going down. May be something will change in near future. Call before going to Tacoma crap yards. More likely it is not for public.| 29698|29641|2012-12-29 12:26:43|haidan|Re: Project Planning|That's what I was afraid of, a guy here said he knew the guy who owned the scrap yard here, which is now defunct and that made it easy, but yeah I'll call around. I went to a scrap yard just like that in Seattle, they had a small selection that they sold to the public, almost no stainless whatsoever yet you could see giant piles and bins of it out in the yard on the other side of the fence. It was fucking stupid they would not let me go pick through it but they did tell me it was going to Tacoma so maybe somewhere along the line hopefully before it gets crushed and bined I'll get to have a look at it.| 29699|29699|2012-12-29 13:18:00|wild_explorer|TNEMEC paints|I was told that this industrial paints are used in many construction projects. http://www.tnemec.com I took quick look on web-site, and it has primer with mio-zinc, paint for potable water tanks, fuel tanks and some paints are suitable for submersion in sea water. Might be easier to find locally and use for tanks and above water. Mio-zinc primer might be used on the hull as well. Does anybody have some experience/used it?| 29700|29641|2012-12-29 14:19:05|Paul Wilson|Re: Project Planning|In NZ nobody is allowed in to a scrap yard that isn't an employee. It all has to do with the business accident and medical insurance. They don't want their rates to go up if you hurt yourself. China is also buying all the metal they can get so there is no need to sell to you. I have fond memories of Saturday mornings crawling over a pile of metal and finding new treasures while I was building my boat in Canada. Every bit of SS I used came from the yards. I can't imagine how much more it would have cost if it wasn't for them. Paul On 30/12/2012 6:26 a.m., haidan wrote: > > That's what I was afraid of, a guy here said he knew the guy who owned > the scrap yard here, which is now defunct and that made it easy, but > yeah I'll call around. > I went to a scrap yard just like that in Seattle, they had a small > selection that they sold to the public, almost no stainless whatsoever > yet you could see giant piles and bins of it out in the yard on the > other side of the fence. It was fucking stupid they would not let me > go pick through it but they did tell me it was going to Tacoma so > maybe somewhere along the line hopefully before it gets crushed and > bined I'll get to have a look at it. > > | 29701|29134|2012-12-29 14:37:23|wild_explorer|Re: Integral tank|I have a lot of questions again ;). The length of average person arm (from fingertips to the inside of the elbow is about 16" (400mm). So, to be able to access any corner of the tank, tank-top "border" should be no more that 16" from the edge of tank cover's opening. Integral tank in 36ft BrentBoat is about 8ft long and has 1 baffle/separator and 1 inspection opening, which gives access to both compartments. Maximum recommended spacing for fuel tanks baffles is 30". There is no strict requirements for water tanks. Integral tank is pretty shallow, and 2 compartments about 45-50" long seems OK. My integral tank is about 15 ft long, and it looks like I have to split it to 2 tanks to be able to use 8ft wide plate for tank top. Now the main questions... - To simplify construction, I have to separate (have some space between tanks) - easier to fit ends after putting tank top in. Welding from outside to the hull and tank-top. Space between tanks (at the center) could be closed later by extra plate. - Not-end baffles should have opening on the bottom for water movement and slots on the top for air movement. How is better to weld tank top to a center/not-end baffles? There is no much room there from the inside. Or... Need I make tank-tops which fits only between 2 baffles? This way I can weld tanks just from outside by sections, but it will require tank opening for each section. Another possible solution is to have removable baffle (SS bolted to flatbar studs) fitted through tank opening (at the center of the opening). Any ideas?| 29702|29699|2012-12-29 14:44:27|Paul Wilson|Re: TNEMEC paints|They might be fine. There are many excellent paints now but I would stick to ones rated for sea water immersion like they use on the oil rigs offshore. If it is a 2 part paint that says it is used on splash zones on offshore rigs it is probably really good stuff. Some of them are very thick high solid paints that are hard to apply though so check the specs. Personally, I like PPG (Ameron) and Carboline (Altex) which are also both industrial paints. Contact their paint reps to see what they recommend. I have used Amerlock 2 (also know as 400) and it goes on really nice. The marine paints like Akzo Nobel (International, Epiglass) are good but can be very expensive since they are marketed to the yachts. Paul On 30/12/2012 7:17 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > I was told that this industrial paints are used in many construction > projects. > > http://www.tnemec.com > > I took quick look on web-site, and it has primer with mio-zinc, paint > for potable water tanks, fuel tanks and some paints are suitable for > submersion in sea water. > > Might be easier to find locally and use for tanks and above water. > Mio-zinc primer might be used on the hull as well. > > Does anybody have some experience/used it? > > | 29703|12344|2012-12-29 16:30:14|Alan|insurance|Happy New Year to all you boat builders. I am going to face a new problem this year with my project. I am going to have to move my boat from it's present location on private property. I have secured a spot for it at a local marina, but they require that I insure it. I have talked to at least a dozen insurance companies [including some who claim to specialize in marine insurance] and have yet to find one that will insure a partialy completed owner-built boat. I live in Maryland, United States. If any of you have had this problem, or can help me in any way, I would greatly appreciate it. Alan| 29704|12344|2012-12-29 17:49:09|wild_explorer|Re: insurance|I tried to get insurance before starting a boat project. Next to impossible. Usually, it is requires to have "boat builder's risk" and "boat construction" insurances. Most specialized insurance companies will not be interested in such small boat and DIY builder. There is "no much milk from DIY cow" for them ;) The easiest way, is to get regular insurance for custom built boat. You can insure a boat if you bought her from someone... Right? No need to go into little details when you talk to insurance company ;)) You have "pleasure" boat, it is custom built, you need insurance to keep a boat at the marina... I think you may need to have registration. Check your state requirements. http://www.marinetitle.com/library/boat-registration-summary.htm You may want to register your boat from USCG - some state do not require local registration for USCG registered boats. Your boat is built in USA and you can choose different options of her usage in USCG registration request (not only pleasure boat). You may choose any home-port as well (not only your state). If you can put your boat on the water - it is completed boat. Even if you cannot put it on a water, it is still a boat which require some work. Later you can request insurance coverage increase after "upgrades" (finishing it). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" wrote: > > Happy New Year to all you boat builders. I am going to face a new problem this year with my project. I am going to have to move my boat from it's present location on private property. I have secured a spot for it at a local marina, but they require that I insure it. I have talked to at least a dozen insurance companies [including some who claim to specialize in marine insurance] and have yet to find one that will insure a partialy completed owner-built boat. I live in Maryland, United States. If any of you have had this problem, or can help me in any way, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Alan > | 29705|29705|2012-12-30 11:51:28|jpronk1|Origami Kayak|This is a cool boat idea that I thought I would share. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1975288517/oru-kayak-the-origami-folding-boat?ref=live| 29706|29699|2012-12-30 13:40:36|scott|Re: TNEMEC paints|I have been using PPG products like the ameron for fixing leaks in fuel tanks and their PSX One for painting topsides. Tough shit. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > They might be fine. There are many excellent paints now but I would > stick to ones rated for sea water immersion like they use on the oil > rigs offshore. If it is a 2 part paint that says it is used on splash > zones on offshore rigs it is probably really good stuff. Some of them > are very thick high solid paints that are hard to apply though so check > the specs. Personally, I like PPG (Ameron) and Carboline (Altex) which > are also both industrial paints. Contact their paint reps to see what > they recommend. I have used Amerlock 2 (also know as 400) and it goes on > really nice. The marine paints like Akzo Nobel (International, Epiglass) > are good but can be very expensive since they are marketed to the yachts. > > Paul > > On 30/12/2012 7:17 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > I was told that this industrial paints are used in many construction > > projects. > > > > http://www.tnemec.com > > > > I took quick look on web-site, and it has primer with mio-zinc, paint > > for potable water tanks, fuel tanks and some paints are suitable for > > submersion in sea water. > > > > Might be easier to find locally and use for tanks and above water. > > Mio-zinc primer might be used on the hull as well. > > > > Does anybody have some experience/used it? > > > > > | 29707|29705|2012-12-30 17:00:10|wild_explorer|Re: Origami Kayak|It is nice to see that someone use idea of foldable mobile boat. New materials allow more flexibility (flexible, but strong) in the design. Foldable small (for 1-3 person) fishing/hunting boats made from heavy canvas with light frame were available decades ago. This boat looks like "self supported" - no extra frame. I just wonder if top seam is waterproof... Looks like it just holds together by straps with buckles. Could be good addition to origami boat, but I do not see information about the price on that page :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > This is a cool boat idea that I thought I would share. > > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1975288517/oru-kayak-the-origami-folding-boat?ref=live > | 29708|29705|2012-12-30 18:09:14|Brian Stannard|Re: Origami Kayak|Preliminary price is $850 On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:51 AM, jpronk1 wrote: > ** > > > This is a cool boat idea that I thought I would share. > > > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1975288517/oru-kayak-the-origami-folding-boat?ref=live > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29709|29705|2012-12-30 18:23:01|Paul Wilson|Re: Origami Kayak|The Porta-boat has been around for many years. They are surprisingly rugged. The people I have met who have had them seemed to like them. http://www.porta-bote.com/index.php Paul On 31/12/2012 11:00 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > It is nice to see that someone use idea of foldable mobile boat. New > materials allow more flexibility (flexible, but strong) in the design. > Foldable small (for 1-3 person) fishing/hunting boats made from heavy > canvas with light frame were available decades ago. > > This boat looks like "self supported" - no extra frame. I just wonder > if top seam is waterproof... Looks like it just holds together by > straps with buckles. > > Could be good addition to origami boat, but I do not see information > about the price on that page :) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > This is a cool boat idea that I thought I would share. > > > > > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1975288517/oru-kayak-the-origami-folding-boat?ref=live > > > > | 29710|29705|2012-12-30 18:51:02|martin demers|Re: Origami Kayak|in Canada there is also the Pirogue > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:22:57 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami Kayak > > The Porta-boat has been around for many years. They are surprisingly > rugged. The people I have met who have had them seemed to like them. > > http://www.porta-bote.com/index.php > > Paul > > On 31/12/2012 11:00 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > It is nice to see that someone use idea of foldable mobile boat. New > > materials allow more flexibility (flexible, but strong) in the design. > > Foldable small (for 1-3 person) fishing/hunting boats made from heavy > > canvas with light frame were available decades ago. > > > > This boat looks like "self supported" - no extra frame. I just wonder > > if top seam is waterproof... Looks like it just holds together by > > straps with buckles. > > > > Could be good addition to origami boat, but I do not see information > > about the price on that page :) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > > > This is a cool boat idea that I thought I would share. > > > > > > > > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1975288517/oru-kayak-the-origami-folding-boat?ref=live > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29711|29705|2012-12-31 16:01:40|brentswain38|Re: Origami Kayak|My neighbour got 20 years of rough, full time use out of his last one, then bought another. Too bad they now make only the transom model and no longer make the rowing version with the rounded stern. Not everyone has a use for a power boat which wont row well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The Porta-boat has been around for many years. They are surprisingly > rugged. The people I have met who have had them seemed to like them. > > http://www.porta-bote.com/index.php > > Paul > > On 31/12/2012 11:00 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > It is nice to see that someone use idea of foldable mobile boat. New > > materials allow more flexibility (flexible, but strong) in the design. > > Foldable small (for 1-3 person) fishing/hunting boats made from heavy > > canvas with light frame were available decades ago. > > > > This boat looks like "self supported" - no extra frame. I just wonder > > if top seam is waterproof... Looks like it just holds together by > > straps with buckles. > > > > Could be good addition to origami boat, but I do not see information > > about the price on that page :) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > > > This is a cool boat idea that I thought I would share. > > > > > > > > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1975288517/oru-kayak-the-origami-folding-boat?ref=live > > > > > > > > | 29712|29641|2012-12-31 16:06:37|brentswain38|Re: Project Planning|It's getting much harder to find scrap stainless here in BC too, as they ship it out as soon as they get it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > In NZ nobody is allowed in to a scrap yard that isn't an employee. It > all has to do with the business accident and medical insurance. They > don't want their rates to go up if you hurt yourself. China is also > buying all the metal they can get so there is no need to sell to you. I > have fond memories of Saturday mornings crawling over a pile of metal > and finding new treasures while I was building my boat in Canada. Every > bit of SS I used came from the yards. I can't imagine how much more it > would have cost if it wasn't for them. > > Paul > > On 30/12/2012 6:26 a.m., haidan wrote: > > > > That's what I was afraid of, a guy here said he knew the guy who owned > > the scrap yard here, which is now defunct and that made it easy, but > > yeah I'll call around. > > I went to a scrap yard just like that in Seattle, they had a small > > selection that they sold to the public, almost no stainless whatsoever > > yet you could see giant piles and bins of it out in the yard on the > > other side of the fence. It was fucking stupid they would not let me > > go pick through it but they did tell me it was going to Tacoma so > > maybe somewhere along the line hopefully before it gets crushed and > > bined I'll get to have a look at it. > > > > > | 29713|29134|2012-12-31 16:10:42|brentswain38|Re: Integral tank|Yes , for two tanks ,bets make your tank top end on the baffles to make it easier to weld. Arms length for me, from armpit to tip of fingers, is 32 inches.I can put an extension on any paintbrush, etc, to reach slightly further. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I have a lot of questions again ;). > > The length of average person arm (from fingertips to the inside of the elbow is about 16" (400mm). So, to be able to access any corner of the tank, tank-top "border" should be no more that 16" from the edge of tank cover's opening. > > Integral tank in 36ft BrentBoat is about 8ft long and has 1 baffle/separator and 1 inspection opening, which gives access to both compartments. Maximum recommended spacing for fuel tanks baffles is 30". There is no strict requirements for water tanks. Integral tank is pretty shallow, and 2 compartments about 45-50" long seems OK. > > My integral tank is about 15 ft long, and it looks like I have to split it to 2 tanks to be able to use 8ft wide plate for tank top. > > Now the main questions... > > - To simplify construction, I have to separate (have some space between tanks) - easier to fit ends after putting tank top in. Welding from outside to the hull and tank-top. Space between tanks (at the center) could be closed later by extra plate. > - Not-end baffles should have opening on the bottom for water movement and slots on the top for air movement. > > How is better to weld tank top to a center/not-end baffles? There is no much room there from the inside. > > Or... Need I make tank-tops which fits only between 2 baffles? This way I can weld tanks just from outside by sections, but it will require tank opening for each section. > > Another possible solution is to have removable baffle (SS bolted to flatbar studs) fitted through tank opening (at the center of the opening). > > Any ideas? > | 29714|29705|2012-12-31 16:17:03|martin demers|Re: Origami Kayak|the pirogue has a small stern, you can see a used one for sale once in a while To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 21:01:38 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami Kayak My neighbour got 20 years of rough, full time use out of his last one, then bought another. Too bad they now make only the transom model and no longer make the rowing version with the rounded stern. Not everyone has a use for a power boat which wont row well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The Porta-boat has been around for many years. They are surprisingly > rugged. The people I have met who have had them seemed to like them. > > http://www.porta-bote.com/index.php > > Paul > > On 31/12/2012 11:00 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > It is nice to see that someone use idea of foldable mobile boat. New > > materials allow more flexibility (flexible, but strong) in the design. > > Foldable small (for 1-3 person) fishing/hunting boats made from heavy > > canvas with light frame were available decades ago. > > > > This boat looks like "self supported" - no extra frame. I just wonder > > if top seam is waterproof... Looks like it just holds together by > > straps with buckles. > > > > Could be good addition to origami boat, but I do not see information > > about the price on that page :) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > > > This is a cool boat idea that I thought I would share. > > > > > > > > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1975288517/oru-kayak-the-origami-folding-boat?ref=live > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29715|29715|2013-01-03 18:01:59|brentswain38|Wynand Nortje?|I see South African self proclaimed "Proud Racist" Wynand Nortje has made a site up, just to criticize my designs. One should bear in mind his track record, before giving any credence to his comments. He talks about engineering principles, yet he has commented on another site, that a tiny transverse frame does more to resist inward pressure of chain plates on a hull than a fully welded 2 ft wide side deck. He even claims that he has dealt with the shrouds pulling upwards, having crushed the fully welded steel side decks inward, without the shrouds breaking! Man, what a bullshit pedlar! He also supported the notion that three 5/16th shrouds, total breaking strength of under 36,000 lbs, can push a 2 inch pipe thru 14 inches of 3/16th plate, total tensile strength of 157,500 lbs. He first claimed that any boat needs transverse frames, yet has built several Dix designed frameless 38 footers himself. He supported the notion that the 1.08 million pounds of tensile strength holding the inside of a twin keel on my 36, is not strong enough. On one site he claimed that any edge , after cutting, should be thoroughly ground. Then, on anther site, he said "A good cut needs no grinding." Man, what a bullshit pedlar! The calculations he worships assume that shape has little or no effect on strength, thus that a square propane or high pressure oxygen bottle can be just as strong as a round, one with only a 15% increase in thickness, or that the rocks which make up a roman arch can be laid out horizontally, rather than in an arc, and be just as strong! He claims that boats of my designs, which have endured everything from 16 days pounding on a Baja lee shore, pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef, a single season passage thru the NW passage,several circumnavigations, being blown on a lee shore in a hurricane for several days in Madagascar, and decades of offshore cruising without a single major structural failure , are not strong enough, yet boats which have survived none of those endurance tests ,nowhere near as well proven, are a better choice because their numbers fit his obsession. It's like claiming that one can predict tomorrows weather forecast more accurately than yesterdays weather record.Yet, he claims his first choice for offshore cruising would be a plywood boat! So how much faith should one put in the judgement or advice of that kind of clown? He is, by his own admission, very inexperienced in offshore cruising, having done only limited coastal cruising, and has never owned and maintained his own boat for any more than a relatively short period of time. He built many steel boats during the dying days of apartheid ( racism he fully supported) when a boat was one of the few ways for such NAZIs to get their money out of the country, and escape the consequences of their abuse, boats built for a one way trip across the Atlantic, in one of the most benign trade wind belts in the world, to be sold in a place where "style over substance" was the priority, in terms of resale price. Given his kind of track record, his comments should be considered no more than the childish drivel of an armchair expert.One can look at the photos he has posted on this site in the photos section, to see the kind of needless and time and money consuming methods he advocates. Check out the huge number of bits and pieces in his boats and the huge increase in the amount of welding, cutting, fitting, and grinding it would take to do things his way. Yet he has claimed that that much fitting, cutting, grinding and welding adds no more time to the project, than the relatively, much tinier amount of cutting, welding, grinding and fitting in the of building an origami boat! I doubt if he, or those throwback neanderthals who think like him, have contributed a single useful new idea towards dealing with the two biggest hurdles facing boat builders and wannabe cruisers ,time and money. In fact, they have taken on the role of "disinformation obstructionists." It would make no sense whatever to get any advice from someone who's IQ is obviously not much more than his shoe size . We have reached a turning point in human history, where obesity kills more people than starvation. One look at someone so morbidly obese, and it is clear you are not dealing with the sharpest tool in the shed. I will soon be reaching full pension, where the selling of books and plans will become more trouble than it is worth, as I will have all the money I need for my simple lifestyle. I have enough money to get me there, with zero economic discomfort. The sale of books and plans will then become a service, to enable people to build boats they can afford, without going deeply into depth, or taking forever. Most of the money will got to charity. So, I personally will suffer not a bit from a fat racist's childish disinformation campaign , if he were to succeed, it would actually make my life easier. Only those dependent on affordable boats and the charities would suffer. He'd simply be keeping up the apartheid, NAZI tradition. Fortunately most practical cruisers can see an asshole coming a mile away, and such people don't often have a long life expectancy , being largely self punishing.| 29716|29715|2013-01-03 23:51:49|wild_explorer|Re: Wynand Nortje?|Brent, looks like this man unintentionally gives your design free advertisement ;) Even negative information have its value - people are curious. It is just human nature to take a look about the subject of the discussion. So, if subject of the discussion is Origami boat (or your design), someone will Google it and find this web-site.| 29717|29717|2013-01-04 00:10:16|wild_explorer|Galvanized steel for super structure (deck, cabin, pilothouse)|I am trying to find 1/8" steel plate for superstructure. It is pretty hard to find plate longer 10ft. I was told that it is possible to find factory galvanized gauge steel (11ga=0.1196', 10ga=0.1345') for almost the same price as for regular steel if shopping around. This may save on wheelabrating and priming. Beside health danger when welding and slightly different welding procedure is there any other concerns? Any problems with painting over galvanized?| 29718|29715|2013-01-04 08:50:32|TDPOPP@aol.com|Re: Wynand Nortje?|Brent, I do not know what started the "friction" between you two, but from the first page, his general ideas on design, good designer support, etc. sounds like he is describing you as one of the good choices. ( at least when not mentioning you by name). His good points and cautions are similar and numerous references to you, not all negative. After giving his site a quick look, The worst thing I saw was, "You do not have a dedicated website for support. Apparently the Yahoo group doesn't count in his opinion even after he mentions it as a reference. Just chalk the Negative comments up to personal envy and don't sweat the rest. Like you said, you'll be out enjoying sailing while he is hacking html code... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29719|29715|2013-01-04 11:42:30|James Pronk|Re: Wynand Nortje?|I can't even find the guys web page? James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29720|29717|2013-01-04 15:46:43|brentswain38|Re: Galvanized steel for super structure (deck, cabin, pilothouse)|Yes, I used 4x8 ft galvanized sheets on my boat. 4x8 ft was the biggest I could find, but I have heard of slightly larger sizes being available , ten ft sheets. For decks and cabin, larger sheets are uneccessary. Wire feed or 7018 doesn't like welding galv. 6011 and 7024 work fine on it.There is some weld porosity , but not enough to matter. Breathing the zinc fumes is a health hazard, giving you temporary flu like symptoms, which go away in a few days , no long term effects. I used a mask with 24 feet of corrugated plastic sump drain hose to breath air from 24 feet upwind.An old gas mask also works well.It's also a good rig for epoxying inside. To get paint to stick to galv, it should be first washed with a TSP solution, then vinegar, then water , then epoxy. I did that and the paint has stuck well for 28 years. I wouldn't weld galv for a living, but on my own boat it was a one time deal. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I am trying to find 1/8" steel plate for superstructure. It is pretty hard to find plate longer 10ft. I was told that it is possible to find factory galvanized gauge steel (11ga=0.1196', 10ga=0.1345') for almost the same price as for regular steel if shopping around. > > This may save on wheelabrating and priming. > > Beside health danger when welding and slightly different welding procedure is there any other concerns? Any problems with painting over galvanized? > | 29721|29715|2013-01-04 16:18:23|Norm Moore|Re: Wynand Nortje?|Here 30 sec search... http://5psi.net/ Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, January 4, 2013 8:42:37 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wynand Nortje? I can't even find the guys web page? James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29722|29717|2013-01-04 20:10:51|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Galvanized steel for super structure (deck, cabin, pilothouse)|Don't know about ordinary paint but powder epoxy may bubble Happy New Year to all Andy Airey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29723|29717|2013-01-04 22:05:02|wild_explorer|Re: Galvanized steel for super structure (deck, cabin, pilothouse)|Thanks Brent for information about electrodes for welding galvanized. Cabin sides and top need more than 10ft length sheets/plates. I really do not like to weld small sheets/plates to get needed size. It loses benefit of origami design. Deck could be split on smaller pieces (it will be hidden/unnoticeable anyway). Or it is need to stick with 8x10ft sheets/plates, because most small CNC tables process only no more than 8x10ft size material. It is possible to find 1/8 plate 20ft long, but it could be narrower than 8ft. Same with gauge material. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes, I used 4x8 ft galvanized sheets on my boat. 4x8 ft was the biggest I could find, but I have heard of slightly larger sizes being available , ten ft sheets. For decks and cabin, larger sheets are uneccessary. > Wire feed or 7018 doesn't like welding galv. 6011 and 7024 work fine on it.There is some weld porosity , but not enough to matter. | 29724|29717|2013-01-05 15:28:53|wild_explorer|Re: Galvanized steel for super structure (deck, cabin, pilothouse)|Does anybody know why it is harder to paint galvanized steel vs regular one? Is galvanized steel has smoother surface than regular steel and paint does not stick to it well? Or any other reasons? Does it requires special paint for galvanized steel? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > To get paint to stick to galv, it should be first washed with a TSP solution, then vinegar, then water , then epoxy. I did that and the paint has stuck well for 28 years. > > > | 29725|29717|2013-01-05 16:27:30|wild_explorer|Re: Galvanized steel for super structure (deck, cabin, pilothouse)|Lot of information on this web-site, but hard to navigate: http://www.galvanizeit.org/ General info and paint type compatibility with galvanized: http://www.galvanizeit.org/about-hot-dip-galvanizing/what-is-hot-dip-galvanizing/the-hdg-coating/enhancements/painting-hot-dip-galvanized-steel/ Duplex systems: http://www.galvanizeit.org/specifying-inspecting/specifying-hdg-paint/| 29726|29717|2013-01-05 18:56:02|fencerca|Re: Galvanized steel for super structure (deck, cabin, pilothouse)|Hot dip Galvanizing is a process which deposits molten zinc onto the surface of the steel. As the zinc cools a thin layer of zinc oxide forms on the outer surface. It is this zinc oxide which repels the adhesion of paints and must be removed using vinegar or another acid solution. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Does anybody know why it is harder to paint galvanized steel vs regular one? Is galvanized steel has smoother surface than regular steel and paint does not stick to it well? Or any other reasons? Does it requires special paint for galvanized steel? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > To get paint to stick to galv, it should be first washed with a TSP solution, then vinegar, then water , then epoxy. I did that and the paint has stuck well for 28 years. > > > > > > | 29727|29717|2013-01-05 18:58:33|brentswain38|Re: Galvanized steel for super structure (deck, cabin, pilothouse)|For my 31 , 4x8 ft sheets work fine , but it would be a pain in the ass using such smaller sheets on a 36 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Thanks Brent for information about electrodes for welding galvanized. > > Cabin sides and top need more than 10ft length sheets/plates. I really do not like to weld small sheets/plates to get needed size. It loses benefit of origami design. Deck could be split on smaller pieces (it will be hidden/unnoticeable anyway). > > Or it is need to stick with 8x10ft sheets/plates, because most small CNC tables process only no more than 8x10ft size material. > > It is possible to find 1/8 plate 20ft long, but it could be narrower than 8ft. Same with gauge material. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Yes, I used 4x8 ft galvanized sheets on my boat. 4x8 ft was the biggest I could find, but I have heard of slightly larger sizes being available , ten ft sheets. For decks and cabin, larger sheets are uneccessary. > > Wire feed or 7018 doesn't like welding galv. 6011 and 7024 work fine on it.There is some weld porosity , but not enough to matter. > | 29728|29728|2013-01-06 06:30:26|Denis Buggy|painting galvanize|THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN COVERED MANY TIMES BEFORE AND THE ADVICE DOES NOT CHANGE WITH TIME --IF YOU FOLLOW A GOOD SITE LIKE AKZO NOBEL AND FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS YOU WILL NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY AND PAINT WILL BE CHEMICALLY BONDED TO YOUR GALVANIZE WITH ETCH PRIMER AS OPPOSED TO MERELY RESTING ON THE SURFACE TEMPORARILY UNTIL IT DRIVES YOU MAD AND YOU WONDER WHY ALL OF IT WONT FALL OFF AND YOU NOW HAVE TO REMOVE WHAT IS LEFT IN ORDER TO DO IT RIGHT THE SECOND TIME -- NOT SO EASY A JOB AS DOING IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME --REGARDS DENIS BUGGY [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29729|29728|2013-01-06 14:24:39|wild_explorer|Re: painting galvanize|This is exactly what I am trying to figure out... Is it worth of trouble to use galvanized steel on a boat? Or is it better to go for zinc-reach primed steel for easier paint application? It is good subject for "in-deep" discussion, because it could be applied to painting over zinc-reach primer as well. Brent gives general practical guide: TSP, vinegar, water wash, epoxy. Not every epoxy could be used on galvanized steel. It is good advice to follow manufacturer's recommendations, but it could be hard to follow for DIY builder. It may require some equipment DIY builder does not have. For example: Surface preparation SP10 (for not-galvanized steel), or power wash which could be in the range 1.5K to 30K psi, or maintaining certain time of exposure for some chemicals, or precise mixing of components in small quantities. Even boat yards do not like to work with paints they do not use every day. Some paints have wide temperature application range, some narrow. Same with air humidity. And steel need to be completely dry/dried after water wash - not easy at winter time. At summer time, the temperature of the steel could be higher than required. Some manufacturers have special paint for galvanized steel, some do not even mention that paint may not be compatible with galvanized steel. I did not see marine paint for galvanized steel so far (only industrial). So far, I found that asking manufacturer for paint for commercial fishing boats is a reasonable trade off (not a ship and not a yacht). It usually has simplified application requirements. But... Not for galvanized steel.| 29730|29728|2013-01-06 14:59:36|Paul Wilson|Re: painting galvanize|If you are hard on your boat and chip the paint all the time like a on a work boat, I would go for the galvanizing if the price is right. The zinc is thicker and tougher. If it makes the difference between sand blasting or not, it may be worth it as well. If none of this is true, the zinc rich primer works fine. I have the zinc primer on the decks and top sides. If I chip the paint somewhere, it protects the steel from rusting until I can touch it up later and seems to stop any rust streaks. Two part Epoxy normally sticks well compared to other paints. I have never had a problem with any adhesion to my galv toe rail or anywhere else. A good quality 2 pack paint should be very tolerant. Use common sense, degrease and clean, use the right thinners and follow instructions and you should have no problems. On galv steel I have done as Brent says and used vinegar and also used stronger acids like rust killer on small areas. Both work well. I have just made sure I rinsed well, preferably with a pressure washer and painted as soon as it is dry. Cheers, Paul On 7/01/2013 8:24 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > This is exactly what I am trying to figure out... Is it worth of > trouble to use galvanized steel on a boat? Or is it better to go for > zinc-reach primed steel for easier paint application? It is good > subject for "in-deep" discussion, because it could be applied to > painting over zinc-reach primer as well. > > Brent gives general practical guide: TSP, vinegar, water wash, epoxy. > Not every epoxy could be used on galvanized steel. > > It is good advice to follow manufacturer's recommendations, but it > could be hard to follow for DIY builder. It may require some equipment > DIY builder does not have. > > For example: Surface preparation SP10 (for not-galvanized steel), or > power wash which could be in the range 1.5K to 30K psi, or maintaining > certain time of exposure for some chemicals, or precise mixing of > components in small quantities. Even boat yards do not like to work > with paints they do not use every day. > > Some paints have wide temperature application range, some narrow. Same > with air humidity. And steel need to be completely dry/dried after > water wash - not easy at winter time. At summer time, the temperature > of the steel could be higher than required. Some manufacturers have > special paint for galvanized steel, some do not even mention that > paint may not be compatible with galvanized steel. I did not see > marine paint for galvanized steel so far (only industrial). > > So far, I found that asking manufacturer for paint for commercial > fishing boats is a reasonable trade off (not a ship and not a yacht). > It usually has simplified application requirements. But... Not for > galvanized steel. | 29731|29728|2013-01-06 16:58:19|wild_explorer|Re: painting galvanize|So, for fully weathered galvanized steel (> 2 years in service) it is need to use pressure washer with < 1450 psi before painting... I see the benefit of postponing the painting of galvanized steel for 2 years (for weathering). It allows to stretch the budget. My hull is primed with zinc silicate primer Interplate 937 (which is NOT recommended for manual application - automatic after wheelabrating, manually - small touch-ups only). It holds very good so far, even in plasma-cut and welding areas - worth of the expense for pre-primed steel. As I see, it is better to use power washer. I have no such option at this time and manual wash does not work well. It is need to use commercial strength fast evaporating degreaser as well. Mineral spirit does not work well - it leaves some film on the steel. I used vinegar in some areas (to compare it to a power brush cleaning), but I missed that the vinegar need to be fully washed out. I had to redo it later. Manual washing does not work well too for complete vinegar removal. I see some people are using propane torches for drying the steel after washing. Interplate 937 is heat resistant (up to 800 deg C / 1480 F). It allows to use propane torch for fast evaporating of water from welds, small groves, steel imperfections, gaps, etc. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > Two part Epoxy normally sticks well compared to other paints. I have > never had a problem with any adhesion to my galv toe rail or anywhere > else. A good quality 2 pack paint should be very tolerant. Use common > sense, degrease and clean, use the right thinners and follow > instructions and you should have no problems. On galv steel I have done > as Brent says and used vinegar and also used stronger acids like rust > killer on small areas. Both work well. I have just made sure I rinsed > well, preferably with a pressure washer and painted as soon as it is dry. > | 29732|29728|2013-01-06 17:54:42|Paul Wilson|Re: painting galvanize|Water blasting is not required but it just makes it easier. If it has a soap injector, I have used the car wash soaps or commercial deck cleaner and then blast rinse. I normally don't use solvents for cleaning unless I am absolutely sure they are compatible with the paint since you never know how they will react. On small areas, I like cleaning and degreasing with Comet or Ajax cleanser and a scrub pad but you should rinse it well. Comet or Ajax with a Scotch-brite pad works really well with aluminum. Paul On 7/01/2013 10:58 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > So, for fully weathered galvanized steel (> 2 years in service) it is > need to use pressure washer with < 1450 psi before painting... I see > the benefit of postponing the painting of galvanized steel for 2 years > (for weathering). It allows to stretch the budget. > > My hull is primed with zinc silicate primer Interplate 937 (which is > NOT recommended for manual application - automatic after > wheelabrating, manually - small touch-ups only). It holds very good so > far, even in plasma-cut and welding areas - worth of the expense for > pre-primed steel. > > As I see, it is better to use power washer. I have no such option at > this time and manual wash does not work well. It is need to use > commercial strength fast evaporating degreaser as well. Mineral spirit > does not work well - it leaves some film on the steel. > > I used vinegar in some areas (to compare it to a power brush > cleaning), but I missed that the vinegar need to be fully washed out. > I had to redo it later. Manual washing does not work well too for > complete vinegar removal. > > I see some people are using propane torches for drying the steel after > washing. Interplate 937 is heat resistant (up to 800 deg C / 1480 F). > It allows to use propane torch for fast evaporating of water from > welds, small groves, steel imperfections, gaps, etc. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Two part Epoxy normally sticks well compared to other paints. I have > > never had a problem with any adhesion to my galv toe rail or anywhere > > else. A good quality 2 pack paint should be very tolerant. Use common > > sense, degrease and clean, use the right thinners and follow > > instructions and you should have no problems. On galv steel I have done > > as Brent says and used vinegar and also used stronger acids like rust > > killer on small areas. Both work well. I have just made sure I rinsed > > well, preferably with a pressure washer and painted as soon as it is > dry. > > > > | 29733|29728|2013-01-06 19:36:45|wild_explorer|Re: painting galvanize|I was confused with the difference for Pressure Washing and Water/Hydro Blasting as well ;). If I understood correctly: - Pressure Washing is up to 3K psi (connected to city water system) - Water/Hydro Blasting 5-100K psi (usually 10-30K) - needs source of fresh water (river) and high capacity water pump. I checked application requirements for some paints, and almost all of it require warm water washing (after degreasing with solvents). For galvanized steel, pressure washer should be less than 1.5K psi. So, household pressure < 1.5K washers will work in this case. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Water blasting is not required but it just makes it easier. | 29734|29728|2013-01-07 06:35:27|rhko47|Re: painting galvanize|If,say, a mast were galvanized,why paint it at all? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN COVERED MANY TIMES BEFORE AND THE ADVICE DOES NOT CHANGE WITH TIME --IF YOU FOLLOW A GOOD SITE LIKE AKZO NOBEL AND FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS YOU WILL NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY AND PAINT WILL BE CHEMICALLY BONDED TO YOUR GALVANIZE WITH ETCH PRIMER AS OPPOSED TO MERELY RESTING ON THE SURFACE TEMPORARILY UNTIL IT DRIVES YOU MAD AND YOU WONDER WHY ALL OF IT WONT FALL OFF AND YOU NOW HAVE TO REMOVE WHAT IS LEFT IN ORDER TO DO IT RIGHT THE SECOND TIME -- NOT SO EASY A JOB AS DOING IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME --REGARDS DENIS BUGGY > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29735|29735|2013-01-07 06:47:56|rhko47|fuel tank connections|For those with day tanks or other multiple fuel tank setups, how do you connect your tanks, and how do you transfer fuel among them? Do you fill the day tank and let it drain into the lower tanks, or fill the main tanks and pump it to the day tank? Which lines (fill, discharge, return) do you connect to which, and with what sort of hose? Is a special hose required for the fuel fill, or the same sort you use for water fill? What sort of pump works well for fuel transfer? IIRC, Brent found that a Guzzler diaphragm pump did not tolerate diesel. Thanks.| 29736|29728|2013-01-07 18:15:29|brentswain38|Re: painting galvanize|Galvanizing does gradually oxidize and wash away over time. Painting it is a good idea. I washed my galv decks with TSP then vinegar, then water and the epoxy has stuck like shit to a blanket for 28 years. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rhko47" wrote: > > If,say, a mast were galvanized,why paint it at all? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN COVERED MANY TIMES BEFORE AND THE ADVICE DOES NOT CHANGE WITH TIME --IF YOU FOLLOW A GOOD SITE LIKE AKZO NOBEL AND FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS YOU WILL NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY AND PAINT WILL BE CHEMICALLY BONDED TO YOUR GALVANIZE WITH ETCH PRIMER AS OPPOSED TO MERELY RESTING ON THE SURFACE TEMPORARILY UNTIL IT DRIVES YOU MAD AND YOU WONDER WHY ALL OF IT WONT FALL OFF AND YOU NOW HAVE TO REMOVE WHAT IS LEFT IN ORDER TO DO IT RIGHT THE SECOND TIME -- NOT SO EASY A JOB AS DOING IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME --REGARDS DENIS BUGGY > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 29737|29735|2013-01-07 18:20:12|brentswain38|Re: fuel tank connections|One guy built a 36 with a Rotary farm diesel pump permanently mounted, to transfer diesel from a bilge tank to the day tank over the engine. The handle was in the quarter berth. I use scrapyard stainless fittings. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rhko47" wrote: > > For those with day tanks or other multiple fuel tank setups, how do you connect your tanks, and how do you transfer fuel among them? Do you fill the day tank and let it drain into the lower tanks, or fill the main tanks and pump it to the day tank? Which lines (fill, discharge, return) do you connect to which, and with what sort of hose? Is a special hose required for the fuel fill, or the same sort you use for water fill? What sort of pump works well for fuel transfer? IIRC, Brent found that a Guzzler diaphragm pump did not tolerate diesel. Thanks. > | 29738|29738|2013-01-07 21:34:56|wild_explorer|Super Structure construction|Brent, I was trying to find 1/8" plate. There is no such things. Plates start only from 3/16". There is hot rolled gauge steel (sheets in 10ga and 11ga) close to 1/8" thickness, but it has limited width from 4 to 7ft (11ga - up to 6ft, 10ga - up to 7ft). It is even hard to find A36 steel, most are A1011. Sheets are made from coils and usually have width 4, 5, 6 ft wide. Available length depends on the supplier (up to 20ft). It looks like I am limited only to < 84" wide cabin and pilothouse made from 10ga steel. Or it is need to join sheets. For joining narrow sheets (for 16ft cabin) how would you recommend to join it? Is it better to join narrow long sheets or wider short ones? Let's say two 4x16ft, or three 6x8ft? It will be joint differently - first longitudinally, second transversely. P.S. Galvanized 11ga sheets a limited to 48x120"| 29739|29735|2013-01-07 21:47:47|Paul Wilson|Re: fuel tank connections|I close off the vent line to the main tank and pump about 3-4 psi of air into the main tank with a high volume inflatable pump. http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Large-Dual-Action-Hand/dp/B0009PUQGE/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1357612870&sr=8-6&keywords=inflatable+pump That kind of pressure is no problem in the strong steel tank made in my keel. If it was a thin skinned tank, you would have to be careful it didn't oil can. Fuel is forced up under pressure through a hose from the pickup on the bottom of the tank to the day tank. With a 3/4 inch hose, it fills the day tank in a few minutes. This has worked well for many years using a 10 dollar dinghy pump and there were no fuel soaked diaphragms or parts to go bad. I have kept this system as back up but recently I added a small electric pulse/solenoid fuel pump. The small electric pumps are cheap and reliable. It constantly circulates fuel up into the day tank through a CAV filter and in theory will scrub the fuel in the main tank. It pumps as long as the engine is running. If you were only using the day tank to feed a heater, or diesel stove, you would want to use the dinghy pump to fill the tank or you would be hearing the small pump run all the time. http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_electric-fuel-pump-airtex_18770076-p FYI, there is a (relatively) new spec for fuel hose called SAE30R9. The older types can be attacked and broken down over time by the new fuels (bio fuels and additives) commonly in use now. If you go to a store and ask for fuel hose, I found they will often give you the old type by mistake. Cheers, Paul| 29740|29735|2013-01-07 23:23:38|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: fuel tank connections|I'm using the VW in-tank fuel pump to move the diesel from the keel tank to the day tank under the deck, just outboard of the diesel furnace. The furnace is gravity-fed. The daytank is thermally isolated from the furnace by a SS-clad fibreglass half-wall. Works well. Furnace will burn approx 70 to 80 hours on a daytank fill. Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2013-01-07, at 3:20 PM, "brentswain38" wrote: > One guy built a 36 with a Rotary farm diesel pump permanently mounted, to transfer diesel from a bilge tank to the day tank over the engine. The handle was in the quarter berth. > I use scrapyard stainless fittings. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rhko47" wrote: > > > > For those with day tanks or other multiple fuel tank setups, how do you connect your tanks, and how do you transfer fuel among them? Do you fill the day tank and let it drain into the lower tanks, or fill the main tanks and pump it to the day tank? Which lines (fill, discharge, return) do you connect to which, and with what sort of hose? Is a special hose required for the fuel fill, or the same sort you use for water fill? What sort of pump works well for fuel transfer? IIRC, Brent found that a Guzzler diaphragm pump did not tolerate diesel. Thanks. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29741|29738|2013-01-08 14:42:39|wild_explorer|Re: Super Structure construction|Another question. If A36 steel is not available, could be it substituted by other grades (for gauge materials) Compare to A36 (Tensile 58-80K, Yeld - 36K min) Galvanized A653 - 58-80K, 36K min. Seems OK, but usually limited to 48x120" size. Hot Rolled sheets A569 - 52K, 38K (lower tensile, ????) Hot rolled sheets A1011 - 49-53K, 30-36K (depends on grade, lower tensile, ????) Cold Rolled sheets A366/A1008 - 44-52K, 26-35K (lower tensile & yeld, ????)| 29742|29735|2013-01-08 22:47:07|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: fuel tank connections|Good idea. I may use your idea as a backup system, should I lose a pump Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2013-01-07, at 6:47 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > I close off the vent line to the main tank and pump about 3-4 psi of > air into the main tank with a high volume inflatable pump. > > http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Large-Dual-Action-Hand/dp/B0009PUQGE/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1357612870&sr=8-6&keywords=inflatable+pump > > That kind of pressure is no problem in the strong steel tank made in my > keel. If it was a thin skinned tank, you would have to be careful it > didn't oil can. Fuel is forced up under pressure through a hose from > the pickup on the bottom of the tank to the day tank. With a 3/4 inch > hose, it fills the day tank in a few minutes. This has worked well for > many years using a 10 dollar dinghy pump and there were no fuel soaked > diaphragms or parts to go bad. I have kept this system as back up but > recently I added a small electric pulse/solenoid fuel pump. The small > electric pumps are cheap and reliable. It constantly circulates fuel > up into the day tank through a CAV filter and in theory will scrub the > fuel in the main tank. It pumps as long as the engine is running. If > you were only using the day tank to feed a heater, or diesel stove, you > would want to use the dinghy pump to fill the tank or you would be > hearing the small pump run all the time. > > http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_electric-fuel-pump-airtex_18770076-p > > FYI, there is a (relatively) new spec for fuel hose called SAE30R9. > The older types can be attacked and broken down over time by the new > fuels (bio fuels and additives) commonly in use now. If you go to a > store and ask for fuel hose, I found they will often give you the old > type by mistake. > > Cheers, Paul > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29743|29735|2013-01-09 14:59:15|Paul Wilson|Swain for sale in Hawaii|I just notice this so I don't know how old the listing is.....boat name is Makena. Paul http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1996/Swain-37-2303612/United-States| 29744|29738|2013-01-10 21:48:23|brentswain38|Re: Super Structure construction|No problem. As steel is so phenomenally over strength any mild steel would do . Just make sure it is easily weldable, and salt water compatible --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Another question. If A36 steel is not available, could be it substituted by other grades (for gauge materials) > > Compare to A36 (Tensile 58-80K, Yeld - 36K min) > > Galvanized A653 - 58-80K, 36K min. Seems OK, but usually limited to 48x120" size. > > Hot Rolled sheets A569 - 52K, 38K (lower tensile, ????) > > Hot rolled sheets A1011 - 49-53K, 30-36K (depends on grade, lower tensile, ????) > > Cold Rolled sheets A366/A1008 - 44-52K, 26-35K (lower tensile & yeld, ????) > | 29745|29735|2013-01-10 21:50:17|brentswain38|Re: Swain for sale in Hawaii|Good boat Has an inboard rudder, but in a way that could easily be changed to outboard --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I just notice this so I don't know how old the listing is.....boat name > is Makena. Paul > > http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1996/Swain-37-2303612/United-States > | 29746|29738|2013-01-10 21:54:26|brentswain38|Re: Super Structure construction|We have used both 10 gauge and 11 guaue, with no problems. Centering a deck beam under any seam keeps shrinkage and thus distortion under control. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, I was trying to find 1/8" plate. There is no such things. Plates start only from 3/16". > > There is hot rolled gauge steel (sheets in 10ga and 11ga) close to 1/8" thickness, but it has limited width from 4 to 7ft (11ga - up to 6ft, 10ga - up to 7ft). It is even hard to find A36 steel, most are A1011. Sheets are made from coils and usually have width 4, 5, 6 ft wide. Available length depends on the supplier (up to 20ft). > > It looks like I am limited only to < 84" wide cabin and pilothouse made from 10ga steel. Or it is need to join sheets. > > For joining narrow sheets (for 16ft cabin) how would you recommend to join it? Is it better to join narrow long sheets or wider short ones? Let's say two 4x16ft, or three 6x8ft? It will be joint differently - first longitudinally, second transversely. > > P.S. Galvanized 11ga sheets a limited to 48x120" > | 29747|29738|2013-01-10 22:41:46|wild_explorer|Re: Super Structure construction|Thanks Brent! I forgot about weldability... It is possible to find such information in steel/electrode compatibility list... When I was searching information about grades, I saw it somewhere. OK, found it. It should have remark next to the steel grade in the table: "Unless restricted by specifications, use any E60XX or E70XX electrode for steel grades with 60,000 psi or lower tensile strength; for steel grades with 60,000 to 70,000 psi tensile strength, use E70XX electrodes". What need to look for to be sure that steel is salt water compatible? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > No problem. As steel is so phenomenally over strength any mild steel would do . Just make sure it is easily weldable, and salt water compatible > | 29748|29738|2013-01-10 22:57:00|wild_explorer|Re: Super Structure construction|I was thinking about how to make cabin top from short sheets. I suspect, it is easier to join metal under tension - easier to align. If make cabin top from several sheets, it is need to weld arcs cut from plate (similar to mast support plates shape) where sheets edges meet. Weld the center of the sheets to the center of the arcs and bend sheets one by one tacking the edges to the arc plates. Making/join the deck is easier. As you mentioned, it has longitudinal deck beams. It is just need to overlap it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > We have used both 10 gauge and 11 guaue, with no problems. Centering a deck beam under any seam keeps shrinkage and thus distortion under control. > | 29749|26545|2013-01-11 11:15:55|wild_explorer|Re: Basic welding questions (Consumables)|According to this document http://www.eagle.org/eagleExternalPortalWEB/ShowProperty/BEA%20Repository/AppProdsMFG/WeldingConsumables/27AppendixB we are back to Brent's recommendations for AC/DC electrodes for hull welding - E6011 for everything, E7024 for stiffeners. E7018 for DC only. AC/DC electrodes E6013, E7014 for very limited usage. There is a list of approved electrodes manufacturers for different countries http://www.eagle.org/eagleExternalPortalWEB/ShowProperty/BEA%20Repository/AppProdsMFG/WeldingConsumables/ShieldedMetalWelding --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Have anybody tried E7014 (Fleetweld 47) with AC welder? It is all position electrode and looks like it is designed for AC. And approved too ;) > > Might be a good addition to E6013 (Fleetweld 37) for welding with AC welder. > > I found (so far) that Lincoln's common "approved electrodes" compatible with AC are: > > E6011 - Fleetweld 35 > E6013 - Fleetweld 37 > E7014 - Fleetweld 47 > E7024-1 - Jetweld 1 > | 29750|29717|2013-01-11 22:00:27|wild_explorer|Re: Galvanized steel for super structure (deck, cabin, pilothouse)|It looks like 4x8ft sheets are the best overall choice for the deck. - easier to find - not too heavy to handle/move/align by one man - 10ga 4x8ft sheet is 185 Lb. (4x12ft is 277 Lb, 4x16ft is 370 Lb). Stiffeners add weight too. - when the deck is on, it is easier to work with longer sheets for cabin/pilothouse sides and tops - there is already surface where longer sheets can lay/rest on. Did anybody worked alone to put the deck on made from longer than 8ft sheets? How hard is it to work with longer deck parts? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > For my 31 , 4x8 ft sheets work fine , but it would be a pain in the ass using such smaller sheets on a 36 > | 29751|29738|2013-01-12 18:58:29|brentswain38|Re: Super Structure construction|if you are using short sheets, run your seams athwartships and centre a deck beam under each seam. Yes, they are much simpler to align with a curve in them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was thinking about how to make cabin top from short sheets. > > I suspect, it is easier to join metal under tension - easier to align. If make cabin top from several sheets, it is need to weld arcs cut from plate (similar to mast support plates shape) where sheets edges meet. Weld the center of the sheets to the center of the arcs and bend sheets one by one tacking the edges to the arc plates. > > Making/join the deck is easier. As you mentioned, it has longitudinal deck beams. It is just need to overlap it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > We have used both 10 gauge and 11 guaue, with no problems. Centering a deck beam under any seam keeps shrinkage and thus distortion under control. > > > | 29752|29728|2013-01-12 21:43:50|jpronk1|Re: painting galvanize|Has anyone used vinyl wash primer? http://www.blpmobilepaint.com/pds/p9-42.pdf What is most often used as a primer for galvanized? James --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rhko47" wrote: > > If,say, a mast were galvanized,why paint it at all? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN COVERED MANY TIMES BEFORE AND THE ADVICE DOES NOT CHANGE WITH TIME --IF YOU FOLLOW A GOOD SITE LIKE AKZO NOBEL AND FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS YOU WILL NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY AND PAINT WILL BE CHEMICALLY BONDED TO YOUR GALVANIZE WITH ETCH PRIMER AS OPPOSED TO MERELY RESTING ON THE SURFACE TEMPORARILY UNTIL IT DRIVES YOU MAD AND YOU WONDER WHY ALL OF IT WONT FALL OFF AND YOU NOW HAVE TO REMOVE WHAT IS LEFT IN ORDER TO DO IT RIGHT THE SECOND TIME -- NOT SO EASY A JOB AS DOING IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME --REGARDS DENIS BUGGY > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 29753|29728|2013-01-13 17:16:56|brentswain38|Re: painting galvanize|I tried it on a steel rudder I built for my first boat, in Auckland. Instructions said let it dry overnight. The acid in it caused the rudder to rust so quickly that by morning it was completely covered in rust. So I cleaned it and gave it another coat, let it dry a bit then coated it . The epoxy fell of in sheets. So I cleaned it again and gave it straight epoxy tar. No further problems. A friend sandblasted his boat and used etch primer on it , covered by epoxy. The epoxy fell off in sheets . Another boat which put the epoxy on clean sandblasted steel with no primer, had no problems. An aluminium boat builder said the vinyl etch primer is softer than the epoxy over it, which causes the epoxy to chip far more easily. He had far less trouble with epoxy on sandblasted aluminium than over etch primer. ETCH PRIMER SHOULD BE AVOIDED LIKE THE PLAGUE! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > Has anyone used vinyl wash primer? > http://www.blpmobilepaint.com/pds/p9-42.pdf > What is most often used as a primer for galvanized? > James > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rhko47" wrote: > > > > If,say, a mast were galvanized,why paint it at all? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > > > THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN COVERED MANY TIMES BEFORE AND THE ADVICE DOES NOT CHANGE WITH TIME --IF YOU FOLLOW A GOOD SITE LIKE AKZO NOBEL AND FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS YOU WILL NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY AND PAINT WILL BE CHEMICALLY BONDED TO YOUR GALVANIZE WITH ETCH PRIMER AS OPPOSED TO MERELY RESTING ON THE SURFACE TEMPORARILY UNTIL IT DRIVES YOU MAD AND YOU WONDER WHY ALL OF IT WONT FALL OFF AND YOU NOW HAVE TO REMOVE WHAT IS LEFT IN ORDER TO DO IT RIGHT THE SECOND TIME -- NOT SO EASY A JOB AS DOING IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME --REGARDS DENIS BUGGY > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 29754|29728|2013-01-16 17:57:47|brentswain38|Re: painting galvanize|Paint corporations main motive is to make money, not to solve your problems, if that reduces profits. So they come up with far more complex and expensive solutions, hoping that some will buy it, before they stumble upon much simpler solutions, which any one can buy at the corner grocery store. People using stuff like vinegar and TSP represent lost sales opportunities for them. They rely on those so gullible as to believe that the more they spend and the more complex the solution, the better the results. They often turn a blind eye to solutions which have proven very effective ,if they don't cost a lot. Hard to believe, but some are actually that dense, a lot of people in fact.Take that kind of thinking right thru a boat building project, and you add years and mega bucks to the cost of the project, without improving the results in any practical way.Those are the kind of people who spend far more time and money on their boats than more practical people, money which all flows into the pockets of corporate scam artists. They end up still working on, and paying for their boats, for many years after we more practical people have left to go cruising. Can they ever buy back the finite years of life they wasted, or sail far enough, fast enough to make up for the time they have wasted? Not a chance! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > Has anyone used vinyl wash primer? > http://www.blpmobilepaint.com/pds/p9-42.pdf > What is most often used as a primer for galvanized? > James > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rhko47" wrote: > > > > If,say, a mast were galvanized,why paint it at all? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > > > THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN COVERED MANY TIMES BEFORE AND THE ADVICE DOES NOT CHANGE WITH TIME --IF YOU FOLLOW A GOOD SITE LIKE AKZO NOBEL AND FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS YOU WILL NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY AND PAINT WILL BE CHEMICALLY BONDED TO YOUR GALVANIZE WITH ETCH PRIMER AS OPPOSED TO MERELY RESTING ON THE SURFACE TEMPORARILY UNTIL IT DRIVES YOU MAD AND YOU WONDER WHY ALL OF IT WONT FALL OFF AND YOU NOW HAVE TO REMOVE WHAT IS LEFT IN ORDER TO DO IT RIGHT THE SECOND TIME -- NOT SO EASY A JOB AS DOING IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME --REGARDS DENIS BUGGY > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 29755|29755|2013-01-19 12:02:52|martin demers|steel boat solidity|There was a lot of talking , about welding, going on for months. That brings me to ask; can a 40ft steel boat fall apart because of poor welding? can severe cracks happen on the hull? did anyone see that before? Martin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29756|29755|2013-01-19 14:13:26|Paul Wilson|Re: steel boat solidity|I have seen cracks on aluminum power boats that take a lot of pounding but never on steel. Steel is so strong.....you worry too much :). Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 20/01/2013 6:02 a.m., martin demers wrote: > > There was a lot of talking , about welding, going on for months. > That brings me to ask; can a 40ft steel boat fall apart because of > poor welding? can severe cracks happen on the hull? > did anyone see that before? > > Martin > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 29757|29755|2013-01-19 21:14:21|wild_explorer|Re: steel boat solidity|Professional welders, probably, were laughing during those discussions ;). And professional welder will have different definition of "poor welding"... Compare to big ships which use "very thin shell" (displacement to shell's material thickness ratio), 40 ft origami steel boat has pretty thick shell. With welding of hull's seams from both sides, final thickness of welded area will be thicker than base material - means stronger. P.S. It never hurts to follow welding procedures and proper welding consumables for chosen material and available welding equipment. That was the main reason for those "welding" talks - for DIY welders. It would be good idea to follow Brent's recommendations as well. P.S.S. It should be extremely poor welding (almost no welding) to make 40ft steel boat which will fall apart.| 29758|29758|2013-01-20 01:07:33|D. A. Clarke|Origami boat f/s: China Cloud Replica, 40 ft, PNW|Hi all With quite a dollop of regret I announce that my beloved boat Taz is for sale. http://www.svtaz.org/Taz4Sale.html The link tells all, I won't waste bandwidth here on the details. Best wishes to all origamists... de (on Cortes Island)| 29759|29755|2013-01-20 08:30:03|mauro gonzaga|Re: steel boat solidity|No. manual welding although poor will not result in a continuous crack to make the boat fall apart. Carbon steel of that thickness doesn't develop cracks during welding. A dramatic defect which could lead to complete rupture could be a continuous lack of side fusion. Lack of side fusion could happen with GMAW (gas metal arc welding) using short arc (Amps below 190-200). lack of penetration if there is no bevel and/or no gap between the two plates and the seam is welded on surface only. Common defects will be porosity which could lead to small leaks. Mauro [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29760|29755|2013-01-26 07:21:20|martin demers|Re: steel boat solidity|Ok, I'll stop worrying...lol > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 08:13:11 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel boat solidity > > I have seen cracks on aluminum power boats that take a lot of pounding > but never on steel. Steel is so strong.....you worry too much :). Paul > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. >�. > > On 20/01/2013 6:02 a.m., martin demers wrote: > > > > There was a lot of talking , about welding, going on for months. > > That brings me to ask; can a 40ft steel boat fall apart because of > > poor welding? can severe cracks happen on the hull? > > did anyone see that before? > > > > Martin > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29761|29761|2013-01-27 18:29:36|sunbear|SeaBis anti-corrosion system|Has anyone heard of this Austrlian based anti-corrosion system?? http://www.seabis.com/products.html Comments? Observations? other similar products?? MarkH| 29762|29761|2013-01-27 19:20:26|Paul Wilson|Re: SeaBis anti-corrosion system|Electrical/electronic corrosion prevention is common in oil and gas with pipelines. I had a summer job as a student where I had to test the systems at a gas plant more than 30 years ago. I have heard of similar systems on boats but can't point you to anything specific. I seem to remember if the electronics or electrics screw up, it could actually make the corrosion much worse. There may be some protection built in for that in the new boxes but it is hard to tell. It is not a very well constructed website..... Normal zincs work fine so I can't see how you could justify the cost. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 28/01/2013 12:29 p.m., sunbear wrote: > > Has anyone heard of this Austrlian based anti-corrosion system?? > http://www.seabis.com/products.html Comments? Observations? other > similar products?? MarkH > > | 29763|29761|2013-01-28 19:48:12|mkriley48|Re: SeaBis anti-corrosion system|I have seen metal boats chewed up when these go bad. Also they do nothing about bad wiring in marinas the number one cause of electrolysis. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Electrical/electronic corrosion prevention is common in oil and gas with > pipelines. I had a summer job as a student where I had to test the > systems at a gas plant more than 30 years ago. I have heard of similar > systems on boats but can't point you to anything specific. I seem to > remember if the electronics or electrics screw up, it could actually > make the corrosion much worse. There may be some protection built in for > that in the new boxes but it is hard to tell. It is not a very well > constructed website..... > > Normal zincs work fine so I can't see how you could justify the cost. > > Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 28/01/2013 12:29 p.m., sunbear wrote: > > > > Has anyone heard of this Austrlian based anti-corrosion system?? > > http://www.seabis.com/products.html Comments? Observations? other > > similar products?? MarkH > > > > > | 29764|29764|2013-01-28 22:31:52|ian46abc|Hull anodes|For long distance cruising especially with little access to haul outs or with low tidal range for drying out... I'm thinking that for extra protection and reached with just a snorkel and wrench... zinc prop anodes could be screwed into matching threaded inserts ( acorn nuts) welded into the hull close to the stern tube....| 29765|29761|2013-01-29 16:22:43|Matt Malone|Not a good spot for a sailboat|Video of some large waves off Portugal. http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/ID/2330322582/ Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29766|29755|2013-01-29 21:47:03|brentswain38|Re: steel boat solidity|Never happens in boats of that size, no matter how bad the weld. Friends bought an absolute abortion of a boat called Waskesiu. Took all the goodies off, then spent 8 hours bashing on it with a back hoe. The welds were the most horrendously bad you could ever imagine, but in 8 hours they couldn't break a single one. How does the worst weld compare in strength to a copper fastening in wood every six inches? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > There was a lot of talking , about welding, going on for months. > That brings me to ask; can a 40ft steel boat fall apart because of poor welding? can severe cracks happen on the hull? > did anyone see that before? > > Martin > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29767|29767|2013-01-29 23:55:07|badpirate36|Ventilation 101|I'd like some information on ventilating my boat. Choice of vents, their location and perhaps a little theory to go with it. Thanx Tom| 29768|29767|2013-01-30 09:40:32|Mark Hamill|Re: Ventilation 101|I have two articles called "Venting the Boat" by Dave Gerr from Professional Boatbuilder 2007 Oct/Nov and Dec/Jan 2008 which you can get from the library on-line (depending where you live I guess) or I can send them to you--they are PDF's. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29769|29755|2013-01-30 10:23:49|Matt Malone|Re: steel boat solidity|Why would someone attempt to bash a hole in a boat with a backhoe ? Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 02:47:00 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat solidity Never happens in boats of that size, no matter how bad the weld. Friends bought an absolute abortion of a boat called Waskesiu. Took all the goodies off, then spent 8 hours bashing on it with a back hoe. The welds were the most horrendously bad you could ever imagine, but in 8 hours they couldn't break a single one. How does the worst weld compare in strength to a copper fastening in wood every six inches? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > There was a lot of talking , about welding, going on for months. > That brings me to ask; can a 40ft steel boat fall apart because of poor welding? can severe cracks happen on the hull? > did anyone see that before? > > Martin > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29770|29767|2013-01-30 10:33:21|Matt Malone|Re: Ventilation 101|I read an article once that recommended one square inch of vent inlet area for each square foot of cabin sole. They also indicated, in fair weather, leaving a cockpit hatch open, a forward facing seat hatch is effective, and can be closed from the cockpit. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mhamill1@... Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 06:40:26 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ventilation 101 I have two articles called "Venting the Boat" by Dave Gerr from Professional Boatbuilder 2007 Oct/Nov and Dec/Jan 2008 which you can get from the library on-line (depending where you live I guess) or I can send them to you--they are PDF's. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29771|29767|2013-01-30 11:06:45|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Ventilation 101|Some of my best-loved solutions, easily selfmade with just an old/torn/out-of-use spinaker or any other light fabric are those "ventilating sails" (translated from the german 'L�ftungs-Segel'). (Just for an "optical explanation": http://www.segelladen.de/Inhalt-untergruppen11/lueftungssegel.htm ) ... people will ask You the more where You got those the warmer the climates You're voyaging get. Cheers G_B Am 30.01.2013 um 05:55 schrieb badpirate36: > I'd like some information on ventilating my boat. Choice of vents, their location and perhaps a little theory to go with it. > Thanx > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29772|29755|2013-01-30 13:37:49|Tom Mann|Re: steel boat solidity|Never say never , Been a welder for a lot of years, seen a lot of stuff cracked mangled. doutfull the boat would fall apart but if a weld cracks below waterline could take on water pretty quick, best bet do your own testing on scrap setup the same as the joint you would be doing on the boat, weld it up and start bending it . Only one I had seen pictures of cracked welds on a boat, the guy was welding up a Roberts kit hull using flux core and they were cracking right down the middle of the weld as soon as it cooled On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:02 AM, martin demers wrote: > There was a lot of talking , about welding, going on for months. > That brings me to ask; can a 40ft steel boat fall apart because of poor > welding? can severe cracks happen on the hull? > did anyone see that before? > > Martin > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29773|29755|2013-01-30 22:37:42|Aaron|Re: steel boat solidity|Was he using hard surfacing wire? I bet he was welding way to hot and traveled so fast he did not depost enough metal and basicaly formed a hollow bead weld. ________________________________ From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel boat solidity   Never say never , Been a welder for a lot of years, seen a lot of stuff cracked mangled. doutfull the boat would fall apart but if a weld cracks below waterline could take on water pretty quick, best bet do your own testing on scrap setup the same as the joint you would be doing on the boat, weld it up and start bending it . Only one I had seen pictures of cracked welds on a boat, the guy was welding up a Roberts kit hull using flux core and they were cracking right down the middle of the weld as soon as it cooled On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:02 AM, martin demers mailto:mdemers2005%40hotmail.com>wrote: > There was a lot of talking , about welding, going on for months. > That brings me to ask; can a 40ft steel boat fall apart because of poor > welding? can severe cracks happen on the hull? > did anyone see that before? > > Martin > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29774|29755|2013-01-31 16:30:06|Tom Mann|Re: steel boat solidity|Na he was using nr 211 , there is a couple different 211's and with one of them he had no problems but the other crack city. he was also welding through the primer which in some cases you can but it doesn't give as good of weld quality On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 7:37 PM, Aaron wrote: > Was he using hard surfacing wire? > I bet he was welding way to hot and traveled so fast he did not depost > enough metal and basicaly formed a hollow bead weld. > > > ________________________________ > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:37 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel boat solidity > > > > > Never say never , Been a welder for a lot of years, seen a lot of stuff > cracked mangled. doutfull the boat would fall apart but if a weld cracks > below waterline could take on water pretty quick, best bet do your own > testing on scrap setup the same as the joint you would be doing on the > boat, weld it up and start bending it . > Only one I had seen pictures of cracked welds on a boat, the guy was > welding up a Roberts kit hull using flux core and they were cracking right > down the middle of the weld as soon as it cooled > > On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:02 AM, martin demers mailto: > mdemers2005%40hotmail.com>wrote: > > > There was a lot of talking , about welding, going on for months. > > That brings me to ask; can a 40ft steel boat fall apart because of poor > > welding? can severe cracks happen on the hull? > > did anyone see that before? > > > > Martin > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29775|29775|2013-02-01 15:33:43|GP|What would you do?|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf7FddPO5QM Just wondering your strategy in this sea. I would think series drogue off the stern sampson post.| 29776|29775|2013-02-01 18:08:37|James Pronk|Re: What would you do?|I know I would not be cooking a 5 course meal for my guests and family! Yay no dirty dishes! James --- On Fri, 2/1/13, GP wrote: From: GP Subject: [origamiboats] What would you do? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, February 1, 2013, 3:33 PM   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf7FddPO5QM Just wondering your strategy in this sea. I would think series drogue off the stern sampson post. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29777|29775|2013-02-01 18:24:59|Paul Wilson|Re: What would you do?|A drogue might help but they are actually not so bad off....they are not surfing down the waves out of control and the sail is helping the bow stay downwind. I don't see any waves over the deck and as long as they don't get a wave broaching broadside, they should be fine. It is hard to tell if anyone is hand steering but if they are, exhaustion and getting thrown and injured is probably the biggest danger. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 2/02/2013 9:33 a.m., GP wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf7FddPO5QM > > Just wondering your strategy in this sea. I would think series drogue > off the stern sampson post. > > | 29778|29775|2013-02-02 10:49:13|martin demers|Re: What would you do?|there is an explanation of the situation in the last ytube comments. Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 12:24:20 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What would you do? > > A drogue might help but they are actually not so bad off....they are not > surfing down the waves out of control and the sail is helping the bow > stay downwind. I don't see any waves over the deck and as long as they > don't get a wave broaching broadside, they should be fine. It is hard to > tell if anyone is hand steering but if they are, exhaustion and getting > thrown and injured is probably the biggest danger. Paul > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. >�. > > On 2/02/2013 9:33 a.m., GP wrote: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf7FddPO5QM > > > > Just wondering your strategy in this sea. I would think series drogue > > off the stern sampson post. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29779|29775|2013-02-02 20:01:20|brentswain38|Re: What would you do?|Yes I'd definitely use a drogue off one of the stern posts. Looks like shes cork screwing a round, coming almost beam on at some points, something a drogue off the quarter would help a lot. Those old traditional boats with short keels and rudder a long way forward can be hard to control in a following sea. They put rudders at the back of airplanes, instead of in the middle, for good reasons --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > there is an explanation of the situation in the last ytube comments. > > Martin > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: opusnz@... > > Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 12:24:20 +1300 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What would you do? > > > > A drogue might help but they are actually not so bad off....they are not > > surfing down the waves out of control and the sail is helping the bow > > stay downwind. I don't see any waves over the deck and as long as they > > don't get a wave broaching broadside, they should be fine. It is hard to > > tell if anyone is hand steering but if they are, exhaustion and getting > > thrown and injured is probably the biggest danger. Paul > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > > > On 2/02/2013 9:33 a.m., GP wrote: > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf7FddPO5QM > > > > > > Just wondering your strategy in this sea. I would think series drogue > > > off the stern sampson post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29780|29755|2013-02-02 20:07:13|brentswain38|Re: steel boat solidity|The boat was bought from the bank for $3K.Had a Yanmar 30 hp diesel in it with 50 hours on it, a new rig , sails, stainless tanks, lead ballast, etc etc. They bought it for the goodies then decided to scrap the hull as it was extremely distorted and ugly. The plan was to break it up with the back hoe and send it to the scrapyard. The back hoe couldn't even break a single weld so they ended up using the cutting torch. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Why would someone attempt to bash a hole in a boat with a backhoe ? > > Matt > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 02:47:00 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat solidity > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Never happens in boats of that size, no matter how bad the weld. Friends bought an absolute abortion of a boat called Waskesiu. Took all the goodies off, then spent 8 hours bashing on it with a back hoe. The welds were the most horrendously bad you could ever imagine, but in 8 hours they couldn't break a single one. > > How does the worst weld compare in strength to a copper fastening in wood every six inches? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > There was a lot of talking , about welding, going on for months. > > > That brings me to ask; can a 40ft steel boat fall apart because of poor welding? can severe cracks happen on the hull? > > > did anyone see that before? > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29781|29755|2013-02-02 20:11:36|brentswain38|Re: steel boat solidity|Using 6011, 6013 or 7024 you wont have any problems, but testing your own welds on a bit of scrap is always a good idea. I let first time welders weld the tabs on for pulling the hull together, then give them a sledge hammer and let them try to break them off. Inspires confidence in them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Na he was using nr 211 , there is a couple different 211's and with one of > them he had no problems but the other crack city. he was also welding > through the primer which in some cases you can but it doesn't give as good > of weld quality > > On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 7:37 PM, Aaron wrote: > > > Was he using hard surfacing wire? > > I bet he was welding way to hot and traveled so fast he did not depost > > enough metal and basicaly formed a hollow bead weld. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:37 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel boat solidity > > > > > > > > > > Never say never , Been a welder for a lot of years, seen a lot of stuff > > cracked mangled. doutfull the boat would fall apart but if a weld cracks > > below waterline could take on water pretty quick, best bet do your own > > testing on scrap setup the same as the joint you would be doing on the > > boat, weld it up and start bending it . > > Only one I had seen pictures of cracked welds on a boat, the guy was > > welding up a Roberts kit hull using flux core and they were cracking right > > down the middle of the weld as soon as it cooled > > > > On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:02 AM, martin demers mailto: > > mdemers2005%40hotmail.com>wrote: > > > > > There was a lot of talking , about welding, going on for months. > > > That brings me to ask; can a 40ft steel boat fall apart because of poor > > > welding? can severe cracks happen on the hull? > > > did anyone see that before? > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29782|29767|2013-02-02 20:23:04|brentswain38|Re: Ventilation 101|Plans for my 36 cal for two six inch vents one either side of the main hatch and one in the anchor well. Lately I have been putting two four inch vents just behind the fore hatch. One boat Evan built in California almost killed a couple who woke up with splitting headaches. They would have died had they slept any longer. Evan, having once taken water in thru a vent, doesn't believe in ventilation, so makes them completely airtight. The difference between experience and decisions based on zero experience is huge. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > I'd like some information on ventilating my boat. Choice of vents, their location and perhaps a little theory to go with it. > Thanx > Tom > u | 29783|29775|2013-02-02 20:24:48|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: What would you do?|Depends a lot from the very yacht You have to stabilize/slow down; biggest issue might become speed: when reaching hullspeed under trysail or barepoles, something particular has to be done to slow down (doesn't look like this at all in the brief video, waves not steep enough/not high enough, the downhill-phase is by far to short for real speedgains) South-Atlantic tactics were two small tractor tyres on a hawser in a bight from stern-port to stern-starboard, tuned to 'boat-downhill = tyres downhill' two waves behind boat; drogues of compareable area would have had the same effect, I suppose. hullspeed under bare pole wasn't reached anymore with this set, windvane selfsteering worked together with tyres for some 50 hours way better than handsteering. worked well with much steeper seas caused by 35 knots versus nasty current shortly off the Southamerican east coast. Windvane gave in, though, when wind gained another 10 knots or so, so we had to man the helm for one night to support the vanegear about every sixth to tenth wave to avoid broaches - was great fun, by the way, unless watertemperatures in the cockpit. Boat was steel 11 meters longkeeel, custom one-off, but round bottom and no overhangs; boat in video might need some very different tactics for being seemingly a wineglass shaped mainframe with quite an aft overhang. As long as there is no concern about rigging/sails condition, I'd try to actively sail the best/calmest course I could get stabilized under vanegear (or autopilot, with steady winds). Just drifting undercanvassed like in the video or, even worse, motor-only sucks awfully, for the motions become rude, extensive and nearly unpredictable up to sudden broaching. Seasickness is probably the bigger concern then, still before rigging or speed, for each one REAL sick crew needs to be cared for nearly round the clock, which will make for a lot of help missing if any "all hands" manoevre would be required, thus makes it essential to find an actively sailing, stable low-maintenance adjustement; some elder workboats with traditional underwater-figurations lie astonishingly well "hove-to" even in quite frightening "white-out" conditions, while fin-keel and keel-skeg configurations generally tend to a need for some more active sailing. 0,02 ct cheers G_B Am 01.02.2013 um 21:33 schrieb GP: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf7FddPO5QM > > Just wondering your strategy in this sea. I would think series drogue off the stern sampson post. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29784|29775|2013-02-02 20:50:34|Paul Wilson|Re: What would you do?|On 3/02/2013 2:24 p.m., Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > Seasickness is probably the bigger concern then, still before rigging or speed, for each one REAL sick crew needs to be cared for nearly round the clock, which will make for a lot of help missing if any "all hands" manoevre would be required, thus makes it essential to find an actively sailing, stable low-maintenance adjustement; A lot of boats are abandoned just because the crew are so seasick and miserable that they can't stand it anymore. 12 hours and a good sleep will solve a lot of problems. The responsible thing would be for the coast guard to just talk them through it and lend moral support rather than do high risk boat transfers and helicopter rescues. That is not what they are trained for though. No guts and no glory. They want to do high fives, use their toys and play the heroes. Paul| 29785|29775|2013-02-03 07:00:04|James Pronk|Re: What would you do?|I have had fire fighters try to rescue me while I was anchored in a very shallow and swampy area of a lake. No cottages around but a causeway running across the lake. Someone driving by thought that a sailboat should not be there and called 911. The fkrs would not take no for an answerer and I ended up cutting there line off my bow. They told me I was in a fish and bird [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29786|29775|2013-02-03 07:08:09|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: What would you do?|Crew moral, bar-buccaneers and leering high-fifes mistaken for calloused seamanship ... Paul, I second this entirely. Many of the abandoned boats of the memorable Fastnet Race 1979 were found days after prematurely disembarkment still drifting or blandly swept ashore in completely sound, perfectly sailable condition, some with still peacefully clunking engine and by far enough diesel to take them back to their original port (... or the finders port, that is, in two cases I know of, when their finders kept the find, with full approval of a British sea-jury engaged with the "race's catastrophies" in detail.). C.A. Marchaj was one of the sparse engineers looking at specific seaworthiness of different hullforms and builder's philosophies systematically scientific after the very Fastnet Race of '79, while his findings kept being unheard with malice aforethought by the people making big money out of floating condominiums, snotted together from dirtcheap resin'n'glass with some optically relevant mahoganny-veneered surfaces added. (C.A. Marchaj - Seaworthyness : The Forgotten Factor, ISBN-13: 978-1888671094 ) A couple Kiwis I was blessed to share a leg with from NZ to Tonga much later, were taking part in this '79 Fastnet Race on a more traditional built moderate long-keel offshore yacht, and they couched hove-to in the Celtic sea during the worst part of the fast moving gale, cooking a stew and eating dry'n'warm under deck all together, waiting for conditions to improve again to enable a resuming of active sailing. Seamanship on small boaties in a blow is a lot about keeping up moral and health and staying sane and sober while living, in terms of sitting, or liing, cooking, sleeping, eating, shitting, washing and peeing and, not to forget, cleansing crewbuddie's seasickness he constantly pukes all over the place, and all this inside a "Tilt-a-wheel" or a rollercoaster literally thrown in fast-forward mode for days, and days, and another day, and one other ridiculous day more, unfortunately, just to give You a mere trace of understanding who's the ONE in charge of Poseidon's trident. Next to no problem with the technical side of sailing storms on small yachts in various tactics is unwritten in books of mere redundancy, while the psycological effects of a storm under deck a "modern" small yacht are usually ashamedly omitted: The weeping skippers, the formerly befriended crew shouting to each other suddenly out of pure angst, the peed-in undies, the bare hate against crewbuddies still miserably puking howbeit One had meticulously cleaned the pantry and saloon three times from the stench in deteriorating own condition, the shakingly crying bundles of whacked nerves formerly mistaken as the REAL big cats bursting of self-esteem in D.C., Wall street, Downing street or some other stage for landlubber's funny sorts of glory are usually concealed even better than the provenance of the money the big rounds for the entire yachtclub pub are paid of. To have an otherwise simple shit (sorry for the explicity), and the following wash-down of substances You didn't want to get into contact some twentyfife more times first hand, not even with Your bum, all this strongly strapped down on the bowl with a harness, wearing additional helmet to avoid the really threatening head-lacerations You had treated Your buddy with shortly before, just for the makers of Your boat were engineers (if at all) or MBAs and definitely didn't know anything about seafaring other than it is usually done by notoriously pretending males with a lot more money than real off-shore-ambitions is an experience You can't really write about in a book You seriously want to sell to a publisher. So, some of the bravest people with the most brilliant seamanship don't even write one single phrase about five days in the middle of a wet and unhospitable nowhere far away from secure ports, stiff grog and deep cleavages scenting promises all over the place, because what they experienced was part of the very motivation they took the risk for in the first place at all: the experience of being alive, and, probably, afterwards being still alive and feeling all the more alive. (You might get to know or even experience firsthand some of their livesaving brilliance when You happen to find Yourself on the very same boat once together outside, though). But still: without having tried it Yourself You will never know. The simple thing that adventures of any kind ever were and ever will be coming together with an awareness of Your sometimes surprisingly tight personal boundaries You'll be forced to push a bit to survive no matter in which sort of dignity is not easily promoted to a fully insuranced society of MBA's, percieving themselves as "reasonably living" while commuting to all sorts of employed work with 55 maximum miles per hour in airconditioned six-airbags-each-side-cars built to fulfill any californian crash-resistance-laws of the recent three decades, though. Cheers G_B Am 03.02.2013 um 02:49 schrieb Paul Wilson: > > On 3/02/2013 2:24 p.m., Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > Seasickness is probably the bigger concern then, still before rigging or speed, for each one REAL sick crew needs to be cared for nearly round the clock, which will make for a lot of help missing if any "all hands" manoevre would be required, thus makes it essential to find an actively sailing, stable low-maintenance adjustement; > > A lot of boats are abandoned just because the crew are so seasick and > miserable that they can't stand it anymore. 12 hours and a good sleep > will solve a lot of problems. The responsible thing would be for the > coast guard to just talk them through it and lend moral support rather > than do high risk boat transfers and helicopter rescues. That is not > what they are trained for though. No guts and no glory. They want to > do high fives, use their toys and play the heroes. > > Paul > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29787|29775|2013-02-03 09:51:46|fred jordan|Re: What would you do?|that wasnt an e-mail, that was literature. > -----Original Message----- > From: giuseppe.bergman@... > Sent: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 13:08:05 +0100 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What would you do? > > Crew moral, bar-buccaneers and leering high-fifes mistaken for calloused > seamanship ... Paul, I second this entirely. > > Many of the abandoned boats of the memorable Fastnet Race 1979 were found > days after prematurely disembarkment still drifting or blandly swept > ashore in completely sound, perfectly sailable condition, some with still > peacefully clunking engine and by far enough diesel to take them back to > their original port > (... or the finders port, that is, in two cases I know of, when their > finders kept the find, with full approval of a British sea-jury engaged > with the "race's catastrophies" in detail.). > > C.A. Marchaj was one of the sparse engineers looking at specific > seaworthiness of different hullforms and builder's philosophies > systematically scientific after the very Fastnet Race of '79, while his > findings kept being unheard with malice aforethought by the people making > big money out of floating condominiums, snotted together from dirtcheap > resin'n'glass with some optically relevant mahoganny-veneered surfaces > added. > (C.A. Marchaj - Seaworthyness : The Forgotten Factor, ISBN-13: > 978-1888671094 ) > > A couple Kiwis I was blessed to share a leg with from NZ to Tonga much > later, were taking part in this '79 Fastnet Race on a more traditional > built moderate long-keel offshore yacht, and they couched hove-to in the > Celtic sea during the worst part of the fast moving gale, cooking a stew > and eating dry'n'warm under deck all together, waiting for conditions to > improve again to enable a resuming of active sailing. > > Seamanship on small boaties in a blow is a lot about keeping up moral and > health and staying sane and sober while living, in terms of sitting, or > liing, cooking, sleeping, eating, shitting, washing and peeing and, not > to forget, cleansing crewbuddie's seasickness he constantly pukes all > over the place, and all this inside a "Tilt-a-wheel" or a rollercoaster > literally thrown in fast-forward mode for days, and days, and another > day, and one other ridiculous day more, unfortunately, just to give You a > mere trace of understanding who's the ONE in charge of Poseidon's > trident. > > Next to no problem with the technical side of sailing storms on small > yachts in various tactics is unwritten in books of mere redundancy, while > the psycological effects of a storm under deck a "modern" small yacht are > usually ashamedly omitted: The weeping skippers, the formerly befriended > crew shouting to each other suddenly out of pure angst, the peed-in > undies, the bare hate against crewbuddies still miserably puking howbeit > One had meticulously cleaned the pantry and saloon three times from the > stench in deteriorating own condition, the shakingly crying bundles of > whacked nerves formerly mistaken as the REAL big cats bursting of > self-esteem in D.C., Wall street, Downing street or some other stage for > landlubber's funny sorts of glory are usually concealed even better than > the provenance of the money the big rounds for the entire yachtclub pub > are paid of. > > To have an otherwise simple shit (sorry for the explicity), and the > following wash-down of substances You didn't want to get into contact > some twentyfife more times first hand, not even with Your bum, all this > strongly strapped down on the bowl with a harness, wearing additional > helmet to avoid the really threatening head-lacerations You had treated > Your buddy with shortly before, just for the makers of Your boat were > engineers (if at all) or MBAs and definitely didn't know anything about > seafaring other than it is usually done by notoriously pretending males > with a lot more money than real off-shore-ambitions is an experience You > can't really write about in a book You seriously want to sell to a > publisher. > > So, some of the bravest people with the most brilliant seamanship don't > even write one single phrase about five days in the middle of a wet and > unhospitable nowhere far away from secure ports, stiff grog and deep > cleavages scenting promises all over the place, because what they > experienced was part of the very motivation they took the risk for in the > first place at all: the experience of being alive, and, probably, > afterwards being still alive and feeling all the more alive. > (You might get to know or even experience firsthand some of their > livesaving brilliance when You happen to find Yourself on the very same > boat once together outside, though). > > But still: without having tried it Yourself You will never know. > > The simple thing that adventures of any kind ever were and ever will be > coming together with an awareness of Your sometimes surprisingly tight > personal boundaries You'll be forced to push a bit to survive no matter > in which sort of dignity is not easily promoted to a fully insuranced > society of MBA's, percieving themselves as "reasonably living" while > commuting to all sorts of employed work with 55 maximum miles per hour in > airconditioned six-airbags-each-side-cars built to fulfill any > californian crash-resistance-laws of the recent three decades, though. > > Cheers G_B > > > > > > > > > > > Am 03.02.2013 um 02:49 schrieb Paul Wilson: > >> >> On 3/02/2013 2:24 p.m., Giuseppe Bergman wrote: >>> Seasickness is probably the bigger concern then, still before rigging >>> or speed, for each one REAL sick crew needs to be cared for nearly >>> round the clock, which will make for a lot of help missing if any "all >>> hands" manoevre would be required, thus makes it essential to find an >>> actively sailing, stable low-maintenance adjustement; >> >> A lot of boats are abandoned just because the crew are so seasick and >> miserable that they can't stand it anymore. 12 hours and a good sleep >> will solve a lot of problems. The responsible thing would be for the >> coast guard to just talk them through it and lend moral support rather >> than do high risk boat transfers and helicopter rescues. That is not >> what they are trained for though. No guts and no glory. They want to >> do high fives, use their toys and play the heroes. >> >> Paul >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium| 29788|29775|2013-02-03 12:24:22|cnc sales|Re: What would you do?|I agree with a lot previously written. I come from Finland, probably one of the most difficult areas in the world to sail in, with a huge level of seamanship and culture in the country. It is one of the most dangerous seas to sail in, due to large numbers of rocks and islands, making non-gps navigation extremely challenging. After a lifetime in contact with water, about 8 years ago I got professional instruction in the UK to get a ticket to be able to charter boats in Spain. The course was excellent and extremely demanding, this coming from a person with a lifetime penchant for special forces/sports/marathons/climbing/divemaster etc. We graduated in force 9 conditions off the river crouch in the uk. So, last summer, I charted a little 34 ft boat for a week and single handed to Menorca from Bcn, about 260 miles. I arrived in a significant hazard, called "local conditions" with surge running 5-8 knots and waves cresting to 10 ft. This was announced on the radio as a "securite" alert. I came in, solo, where 24 m boats had to turn off due to their inability to handle the conditions. I was slightly scared (65%) and the situation was challenging. Lack of skill and experience and training would have, almost certainly, led to losing the boat (and crew). My point: It is not necessary to be "good" but good to great training will make a huge difference. I am one of those people who "do and has done" yet I seek out instruction from people better than me (a lot of people). Due to this, I have been in all manner of storms, threatening situations etc. and managed to come out ok. I have helped save peoples lives a few times, and been in near death situations about 6 times. Imo, ime, proper mental preparation coupled to training is the best thing people can do for themselves. The only real handicap is the mindset "i know this all"... For myself, I help wherever I can, and listen to everyone. I don´t have the answers, just do the best I can.| 29789|29767|2013-02-03 13:18:41|wild_explorer|Re: Ventilation 101|What is the reason to put a vent in an anchor well? It is open to atmosphere anyway. By my understanding, anchor well should be isolated/airtight from living area... Best option is to have vents configuration which naturally move/circulate air (without mechanical means). But it requires very good engineering of vent system and knowledge of airflow in closed spaces. Correct placing of air inlets and outlets for natural ventilation is almost an art. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Plans for my 36 cal for two six inch vents one either side of the main hatch and one in the anchor well. Lately I have been putting two four inch vents just behind the fore hatch. | 29790|29790|2013-02-03 14:38:32|Doug Jackson|hi...|Hello http://www.nissadalen.com/kuwheldhxc.html-------------- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29791|29790|2013-02-04 06:13:21|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: hi...|Am 03.02.2013 um 20:38 schrieb Doug Jackson: > Hello > > http://www.nissadalen.com/kuwheldhxc.html-------------- > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Hi Doug Your link produced a The requested URL /kuwheldhxc.html-------------- was not found on this server. Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. pitily. Would You take the effort to correct this, pls? I love Your engineering and the pics about it. Cheers G_B [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29792|29767|2013-02-04 17:37:10|brentswain38|Re: Ventilation 101|The very point of the stem is a place where air rarely moves at all without a vent, and it is a vent which can be left open in all but the worst of conditions. I use a spin down plate to seal it and a piece of rubber inner tube as a check valve over the outside of it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > What is the reason to put a vent in an anchor well? It is open to atmosphere anyway. By my understanding, anchor well should be isolated/airtight from living area... > > Best option is to have vents configuration which naturally move/circulate air (without mechanical means). But it requires very good engineering of vent system and knowledge of airflow in closed spaces. Correct placing of air inlets and outlets for natural ventilation is almost an art. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Plans for my 36 cal for two six inch vents one either side of the main hatch and one in the anchor well. Lately I have been putting two four inch vents just behind the fore hatch. > | 29793|29793|2013-02-04 17:49:15|brentswain38|BS chimney flail|I just made a huge improvement in my BS chimney flail. I welded a 2 1/2 inch piece of old file at 90 degrees to a 6 ft length of 5/16th stainless rod.I welded a couple of braces on, to ease the transition from the rod to the file, and eliminate the brittle hard sport there. I put this down my stove pipe and hooked a drill to the end, then turned the drill on. The rod is not straight, so the file rattles in the stove pipe, cutting chunks of creosote off far more effectively than the chain did.| 29794|29775|2013-02-04 17:54:38|brentswain38|Re: What would you do?|Whether you are at sea or in port, nothing eases the stress of a gale like a good set of foam earplugs. Once you have rigged your drogue and done all you can, put the ear plugs in, and the stress instantly eases drastically. Then logic begins to prevail over panic.Carry lots of them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, cnc sales wrote: > > I agree with a lot previously written. > > I come from Finland, probably one of the most difficult areas in the > world to sail in, with a huge level of seamanship and culture in the > country. > It is one of the most dangerous seas to sail in, due to large numbers of > rocks and islands, making non-gps navigation extremely challenging. > > After a lifetime in contact with water, about 8 years ago I got > professional instruction in the UK to get a ticket to be able to charter > boats in Spain. > The course was excellent and extremely demanding, this coming from a > person with a lifetime penchant for special > forces/sports/marathons/climbing/divemaster etc. > We graduated in force 9 conditions off the river crouch in the uk. > > So, last summer, I charted a little 34 ft boat for a week and single > handed to Menorca from Bcn, about 260 miles. > I arrived in a significant hazard, called "local conditions" with surge > running 5-8 knots and waves cresting to 10 ft. > This was announced on the radio as a "securite" alert. > > I came in, solo, where 24 m boats had to turn off due to their inability > to handle the conditions. > I was slightly scared (65%) and the situation was challenging. > Lack of skill and experience and training would have, almost certainly, > led to losing the boat (and crew). > > My point: > It is not necessary to be "good" but good to great training will make a > huge difference. > I am one of those people who "do and has done" yet I seek out > instruction from people better than me (a lot of people). > Due to this, I have been in all manner of storms, threatening situations > etc. and managed to come out ok. > > I have helped save peoples lives a few times, and been in near death > situations about 6 times. > Imo, ime, proper mental preparation coupled to training is the best > thing people can do for themselves. > > The only real handicap is the mindset "i know this all"... > > For myself, I help wherever I can, and listen to everyone. > I don´t have the answers, just do the best I can. > | 29795|29775|2013-02-04 19:03:40|Aaron|Re: What would you do?|That works when at the dentist office also.     ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 4, 2013 1:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What would you do?   Whether you are at sea or in port, nothing eases the stress of a gale like a good set of foam earplugs. Once you have rigged your drogue and done all you can, put the ear plugs in, and the stress instantly eases drastically. Then logic begins to prevail over panic.Carry lots of them. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, cnc sales wrote: > > I agree with a lot previously written. > > I come from Finland, probably one of the most difficult areas in the > world to sail in, with a huge level of seamanship and culture in the > country. > It is one of the most dangerous seas to sail in, due to large numbers of > rocks and islands, making non-gps navigation extremely challenging. > > After a lifetime in contact with water, about 8 years ago I got > professional instruction in the UK to get a ticket to be able to charter > boats in Spain. > The course was excellent and extremely demanding, this coming from a > person with a lifetime penchant for special > forces/sports/marathons/climbing/divemaster etc. > We graduated in force 9 conditions off the river crouch in the uk. > > So, last summer, I charted a little 34 ft boat for a week and single > handed to Menorca from Bcn, about 260 miles. > I arrived in a significant hazard, called "local conditions" with surge > running 5-8 knots and waves cresting to 10 ft. > This was announced on the radio as a "securite" alert. > > I came in, solo, where 24 m boats had to turn off due to their inability > to handle the conditions. > I was slightly scared (65%) and the situation was challenging. > Lack of skill and experience and training would have, almost certainly, > led to losing the boat (and crew). > > My point: > It is not necessary to be "good" but good to great training will make a > huge difference. > I am one of those people who "do and has done" yet I seek out > instruction from people better than me (a lot of people). > Due to this, I have been in all manner of storms, threatening situations > etc. and managed to come out ok. > > I have helped save peoples lives a few times, and been in near death > situations about 6 times. > Imo, ime, proper mental preparation coupled to training is the best > thing people can do for themselves. > > The only real handicap is the mindset "i know this all"... > > For myself, I help wherever I can, and listen to everyone. > I don´t have the answers, just do the best I can. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29796|29796|2013-02-07 11:51:01|Bob|boom|What is the recommnended length for the Booom on a 36 ft'er with the mast 46 feet? Bob Meade leesburg Fl| 29797|29767|2013-02-07 20:01:49|haidan|Re: Ventilation 101|It does vent the boat real nice, it tends to draw warm air over the v-berth too rather than just all rising into the pilot house. It did seem a little weird to me too and I took a bunch of water aboard once through it, though now that it's nice and sealed down that's not really a problem in any way.| 29798|29798|2013-02-08 08:50:21|jpronk1|Kubota or Isuzu and $750 in my pocket?|Hey All, I have been dealing up on engines and was wondering what the group thinks? I could get a kubota v2203 $ 1500 cash or an isuzu with about the same hp , good runner for only $ 750. it also has deeper bell housing easier for coupling. the kubotas have shallow bellhousing. What would you get? Thank you all, James| 29799|29796|2013-02-08 13:48:07|haidan|Re: boom|Mine's 14'8" and it just clock you if you're standing right a the companion way. I think they're usually around that, I've seen some longer some shorter but less than a foot of difference. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" wrote: > > What is the recommnended length for the Booom on a 36 ft'er with the mast 46 feet? > > Bob Meade > leesburg Fl > | 29800|29798|2013-02-08 15:22:57|wild_explorer|Re: Kubota or Isuzu and $750 in my pocket?|I was thinking about Kubota v2203. Looks very good for 40 footer. This Kubota model is used in many industrial applications, easy to find replacement engine and parts are pretty cheap. Kubota's engines (same model) may have shallow or deep oil pan (depends on application or equipment) You need to check/compare availability and price of new parts for Isuzu (check eBay for both engines). And... How easy you can find the same engine model (replacement) for Isuzu. P.S. Check what running hours both engines have. P.S.S. $1500 looks like a reasonable price for complete Kubota engine with low hours . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > Hey All, > > I have been dealing up on engines and was wondering what the group thinks? > > I could get a kubota v2203 $ 1500 cash or an isuzu with about the same hp , good runner for only $ 750. it also has deeper bell housing > easier for coupling. the kubotas have shallow bellhousing. > > What would you get? > > Thank you all, > > James > | 29801|29798|2013-02-09 13:48:57|jpronk1|Re: Kubota or Isuzu and $750 in my pocket?|The Isuzu is a 2.2l D201 same size as the Kubota. James --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was thinking about Kubota v2203. Looks very good for 40 footer. This Kubota model is used in many industrial applications, easy to find replacement engine and parts are pretty cheap. Kubota's engines (same model) may have shallow or deep oil pan (depends on application or equipment) > > You need to check/compare availability and price of new parts for Isuzu (check eBay for both engines). And... How easy you can find the same engine model (replacement) for Isuzu. > > P.S. Check what running hours both engines have. > P.S.S. $1500 looks like a reasonable price for complete Kubota engine with low hours . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > Hey All, > > > > I have been dealing up on engines and was wondering what the group thinks? > > > > I could get a kubota v2203 $ 1500 cash or an isuzu with about the same hp , good runner for only $ 750. it also has deeper bell housing > > easier for coupling. the kubotas have shallow bellhousing. > > > > What would you get? > > > > Thank you all, > > > > James > > > | 29802|29798|2013-02-09 14:17:27|Paul Wilson|Re: Kubota or Isuzu and $750 in my pocket?|FWIW, I have an Isuzu diesel 3KR1 and I have been very happy with it. I am not really familiar with the details of the engines but based on reputation, I would think both are probably excellent engines. I think the Isuzu is used in Thermo King reefer units. I would go for the engine that was in the best shape with a bias to the Kubota since the parts will be cheaper and might be easier to find. The difference between $750 and $1500 is really nothing when you look at the time and effort to fit and install the engine so I wouldn't buy a poorer condition engine just to save $750 on a boat. Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 10/02/2013 7:48 a.m., jpronk1 wrote: > > The Isuzu is a 2.2l D201 same size as the Kubota. > James > | 29803|29798|2013-02-09 17:43:08|wild_explorer|Re: Kubota or Isuzu and $750 in my pocket?|Fast test: http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=det_cfm.engine_find_menu Check how many search records you will get for each engine ;) Another test: try to find specs and power charts (important for choosing boat prop) for Isuzu D201. You may get some diesels pretty cheap, but it will be very hard to get information or parts for it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > The Isuzu is a 2.2l D201 same size as the Kubota. > James > | 29804|29798|2013-02-09 19:56:14|James Pronk|Re: Kubota or Isuzu and $750 in my pocket?|Both engines are out of reefer units. The Isuzu's are out of thermo king reefers, not sure what the kubotas are out of. James --- On Sat, 2/9/13, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Kubota or Isuzu and $750 in my pocket? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, February 9, 2013, 5:43 PM   Fast test: http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=det_cfm.engine_find_menu Check how many search records you will get for each engine ;) Another test: try to find specs and power charts (important for choosing boat prop) for Isuzu D201. You may get some diesels pretty cheap, but it will be very hard to get information or parts for it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > The Isuzu is a 2.2l D201 same size as the Kubota. > James > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29805|29798|2013-02-09 23:42:52|wild_explorer|Re: Kubota or Isuzu and $750 in my pocket?|In this case, it should have running hours counter. Is this information available? Check EXACT model for Kubota v2203 (it comes in different configurations - industrial, generator, DI, IDI). I could not find any information on Isuzu D201. It looks like Isuzu D-series is out of production. Only for this reason, personally, I would choose v2203 over D201. v2203 is used in Beta-50 power unit by BetaMarine. It has all dimensions for this unit - easier for installation and to find matching transmission. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Both engines are out of reefer units. The Isuzu's are out of thermo king reefers, not sure what the kubotas are out of. > James > | 29806|29806|2013-02-11 17:39:38|brentswain38|Laser interior|I just put all the interior tabs in a 36 , using a cheap laser pointer on a square, off a cable strung along the centerline, parallel to the waterline .Boy was that ever easy. Took only minutes to mark out all the bulkhead tabs.| 29807|29806|2013-02-11 19:42:57|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Laser interior|Brent, Thant’s interesting. I have one of those self leveling lasers that generate a horizontal plane of light and a vertical one. I used it to layout supports for the floorboards in my fiberglass boat. I was going to suggest what you did, but you beat me to it. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: brentswain38 Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 5:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Laser interior I just put all the interior tabs in a 36 , using a cheap laser pointer on a square, off a cable strung along the centerline, parallel to the waterline .Boy was that ever easy. Took only minutes to mark out all the bulkhead tabs. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29808|29806|2013-02-12 13:26:47|wild_explorer|Re: Laser interior|For "not perfectly leveled" hull, self leveling laser will not work. "Laser on the string" along center line and parallel to waterline will work in any conditions. P.S. Yahoo loses messages... I post similar yesterday, but I do not see it - have to re-post it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > Thant’s interesting. I have one of those self leveling lasers that generate a horizontal plane of light and a vertical one. I used it to layout supports for the floorboards in my fiberglass boat. I was going to suggest what you did, but you beat me to it. > Gary H. Lucas | 29809|29806|2013-02-12 15:54:37|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Laser interior|My laser level came with a tripod. That made it easy to pick marker points. Sent from my iPhone On 2013-02-12, at 10:27 AM, "wild_explorer" wrote: > For "not perfectly leveled" hull, self leveling laser will not work. "Laser on the string" along center line and parallel to waterline will work in any conditions. > > P.S. Yahoo loses messages... I post similar yesterday, but I do not see it - have to re-post it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Brent, > > Thant’s interesting. I have one of those self leveling lasers that generate a horizontal plane of light and a vertical one. I used it to layout supports for the floorboards in my fiberglass boat. I was going to suggest what you did, but you beat me to it. > > Gary H. Lucas > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29810|29806|2013-02-12 21:27:02|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Laser interior|Wild, You are right, however leveling a boat perfectly is no big deal. I use a clear plastic hose with water in it from rail to rail. Pull it up and down to align the water on one side with the rail, then level the boat side to side until both sides are the same. It’s actually more accurate than any laser. Use a longer tube fore and aft. Scribe some marks in the steel when you get it the way you want it. Then you can return the boat to perfect level any time over it’s life time. A properly leveled boat makes building an interior much easier. You can use conventional levels, plumb bobs, taunt wires, and the cheap pencil laser or the self leveling laser to quickly measure things up and accurate parts make the construction go lots faster. Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ From: wild_explorer Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 1:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Laser interior For "not perfectly leveled" hull, self leveling laser will not work. "Laser on the string" along center line and parallel to waterline will work in any conditions. P.S. Yahoo loses messages... I post similar yesterday, but I do not see it - have to re-post it. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > Thant’s interesting. I have one of those self leveling lasers that generate a horizontal plane of light and a vertical one. I used it to layout supports for the floorboards in my fiberglass boat. I was going to suggest what you did, but you beat me to it. > Gary H. Lucas Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29811|29798|2013-02-12 21:59:42|brentswain38|Re: Kubota or Isuzu and $750 in my pocket?|I have an Isuzu. Love it, but the Kubota has the advantage of a decompression lever option. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > In this case, it should have running hours counter. Is this information available? > > Check EXACT model for Kubota v2203 (it comes in different configurations - industrial, generator, DI, IDI). > > I could not find any information on Isuzu D201. It looks like Isuzu D-series is out of production. Only for this reason, personally, I would choose v2203 over D201. > > v2203 is used in Beta-50 power unit by BetaMarine. It has all dimensions for this unit - easier for installation and to find matching transmission. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Both engines are out of reefer units. The Isuzu's are out of thermo king reefers, not sure what the kubotas are out of. > > James > > > | 29812|29796|2013-02-12 22:07:01|brentswain38|Re: boom|Just long enough to clear the back stay by about 6 inches in any Chinese gybe . I believe that is about 16 ft, but the drawings are to scale so you can easily scale it off the drawings. That is for a roachless battenless main. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Mine's 14'8" and it just clock you if you're standing right a the companion way. I think they're usually around that, I've seen some longer some shorter but less than a foot of difference. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" wrote: > > > > What is the recommnended length for the Booom on a 36 ft'er with the mast 46 feet? > > > > Bob Meade > > leesburg Fl > > > | 29813|29806|2013-02-13 10:47:30|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Laser interior|Provided the boat is level bow to stern. Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2013-02-12, at 10:27 AM, "wild_explorer" wrote: > For "not perfectly leveled" hull, self leveling laser will not work. "Laser on the string" along center line and parallel to waterline will work in any conditions. > > P.S. Yahoo loses messages... I post similar yesterday, but I do not see it - have to re-post it. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Brent, > > Thant’s interesting. I have one of those self leveling lasers that generate a horizontal plane of light and a vertical one. I used it to layout supports for the floorboards in my fiberglass boat. I was going to suggest what you did, but you beat me to it. > > Gary H. Lucas > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29814|29806|2013-02-13 10:49:17|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Laser interior|That is what I did, Gary them I marked the levels on the hull to check for future shifts Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2013-02-12, at 6:27 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Wild, > You are right, however leveling a boat perfectly is no big deal. I use a clear plastic hose with water in it from rail to rail. Pull it up and down to align the water on one side with the rail, then level the boat side to side until both sides are the same. It’s actually more accurate than any laser. Use a longer tube fore and aft. Scribe some marks in the steel when you get it the way you want it. Then you can return the boat to perfect level any time over it’s life time. A properly leveled boat makes building an interior much easier. You can use conventional levels, plumb bobs, taunt wires, and the cheap pencil laser or the self leveling laser to quickly measure things up and accurate parts make the construction go lots faster. > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > From: wild_explorer > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 1:26 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Laser interior > > For "not perfectly leveled" hull, self leveling laser will not work. "Laser on the string" along center line and parallel to waterline will work in any conditions. > > P.S. Yahoo loses messages... I post similar yesterday, but I do not see it - have to re-post it. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > Brent, > > Thant’s interesting. I have one of those self leveling lasers that generate a horizontal plane of light and a vertical one. I used it to layout supports for the floorboards in my fiberglass boat. I was going to suggest what you did, but you beat me to it. > > Gary H. Lucas > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29815|29806|2013-02-13 13:11:17|wild_explorer|Re: Laser interior|Yep, it is always useful to level the hull in all directions. Easier to do the work later. If hull is leveled, self leveling laser will be a big help. I guess, if the hull is not aligned perfectly, you can turn "self leveling" function OFF and align the laser manually. Leveling the hull with "tube level" is not as simple as it sounds, but VERY accurate. Some people use regular garden water hose with extra attachments on the ends (couplers and clear plastic tube extensions). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Wild, > You are right, however leveling a boat perfectly is no big deal. I use a clear plastic hose with water in it from rail to rail. Pull it up and down to align the water on one side with the rail, then level the boat side to side until both sides are the same. It’s actually more accurate than any laser. Use a longer tube fore and aft. Scribe some marks in the steel when you get it the way you want it. Then you can return the boat to perfect level any time over it’s life time. A properly leveled boat makes building an interior much easier. You can use conventional levels, plumb bobs, taunt wires, and the cheap pencil laser or the self leveling laser to quickly measure things up and accurate parts make the construction go lots faster. > > Gary H. Lucas | 29816|29806|2013-02-13 13:25:57|wild_explorer|Re: Laser interior|With laser on the string, you do not really need to level boat bow to stern, but the twist should be removed from the hull. If you know the location of the waterline on centerline (distance from tip of the bow and from the stern), you just attach the string to these points on centerline. The "block" base to which laser is attached, just need to be long enough to prevent laser "to rock" along string's axis. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > > Provided the boat is level bow to stern. Gord > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2013-02-12, at 10:27 AM, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > For "not perfectly leveled" hull, self leveling laser will not work. "Laser on the string" along center line and parallel to waterline will work in any conditions. > > | 29817|29817|2013-02-15 12:31:07|ursus_222|How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|Hi Pulling my boat out of water on Monday to do some hull work and I want to use epoxy cop for antfouling but don't know how many gallons I need, also the person who built this boat used salt water cooling and he said he filled the skeg with foam. If I have time I would really like to get rid of this cooling system and use Brent's, any advice on the best way to get rid of the foam would be appreciated? Cheers Vic.| 29818|29817|2013-02-15 14:10:47|martin demers|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|I would do some test on a small piece of foam to see what can disolve it, I would start with acetone. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ursus_222@... Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 17:31:05 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36 Hi Pulling my boat out of water on Monday to do some hull work and I want to use epoxy cop for antfouling but don't know how many gallons I need, also the person who built this boat used salt water cooling and he said he filled the skeg with foam. If I have time I would really like to get rid of this cooling system and use Brent's, any advice on the best way to get rid of the foam would be appreciated? Cheers Vic. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29819|29817|2013-02-16 15:42:58|ursus_222|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|Thanks Martin I will try your suggestion, I am assuming he had the guy who insulated the hull spray foam into the skeg but I will have a better idea when I get it out of the water on Monday, I was thinking about cutting a window in the skeg to see what I am dealing with and whether it is worth it to try to salvage this skeg or just cut it off and start over. Cheers Vic. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > I would do some test on a small piece of foam to see what can disolve it, > I would start with acetone. | 29820|29817|2013-02-17 11:31:01|Darren Bos|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|If the foam was sprayed or poured in, then it is almost certainly polyurethane foam, which is really difficult to dissolve, and the things which will dissolve it are way too dangerous to consider using (dangerous on the scale of a postage-stamp sized exposure on you skin could kill you). Also, don't use heat or flame to try and get rid of it. Even just heating polyurethane foam with a hot wire (often used to cut other kinds of foam) releases toxic isocyanates ( http://www2.worksafebc.com/i/posters/2010/ws%2010_05.html ) I'd still test a sample with acetone, but I would be prepared that it isn't likely to work. Darren At 12:42 PM 16/02/2013, you wrote: > > >Thanks Martin > >I will try your suggestion, I am assuming he had >the guy who insulated the hull spray foam into >the skeg but I will have a better idea when I >get it out of the water on Monday, I was >thinking about cutting a window in the skeg to >see what I am dealing with and whether it is >worth it to try to salvage this skeg or just cut it off and start over. > >Cheers > >Vic. > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >martin demers wrote: > > > > I would do some test on a small piece of foam to see what can disolve it, > > I would start with acetone. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29821|29817|2013-02-17 12:30:08|Donal|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|Vic, Go here for a calculator: http://www.coppercoatusa.com/Calculate_Quantities.html Copper coat is now represented directly in Canada. There is a crude website at www.coppercoat.ca www.coppercoat.com is the corporate site in the UK. Demand, I understand, is heavy. I've had a couple of phone exchanges with Bruce Foy. His partner recently died unexpectedly and that has set things back a bit.But he has inventory on Vancouver Island. Bruce divides his time between Toronto and Salt Spring Island. I may do some marketing work for him. I have a friend here, the local diver, who has applied the material in years past and says it is wonderful. The process is critical. I hope to use it this spring or summer on my boat. donal --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ursus_222" wrote: > > Hi > > Pulling my boat out of water on Monday to do some hull work and I want to use epoxy cop for antfouling but don't know how many gallons I need, also the person who built this boat used salt water cooling and he said he filled the skeg with foam. If I have time I would really like to get rid of this cooling system and use Brent's, any advice on the best way to get rid of the foam would be appreciated? > > Cheers > > Vic. > | 29822|29817|2013-02-17 18:02:16|Mark Hamill|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|Since the epoxy is I am assuming just a carrier for the copper--would it be possible to add it to something like Wasser Tar and get the same result?? Any thoughts?? I have used it with el cheapo epoxy. MarkH Vic, Go here for a calculator: http://www.coppercoatusa.com/Calculate_Quantities.html Copper coat is now represented directly in Canada. There is a crude website at www.coppercoat.ca www.coppercoat.com is the corporate site in the UK. Demand, I understand, is heavy. I've had a couple of phone exchanges with Bruce Foy. His partner recently died unexpectedly and that has set things back a bit.But he has inventory on Vancouver Island. Bruce divides his time between Toronto and Salt Spring Island. I may do some marketing work for him. I have a friend here, the local diver, who has applied the material in years past and says it is wonderful. The process is critical. I hope to use it this spring or summer on my boat. donal --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ursus_222" wrote: > > Hi > > Pulling my boat out of water on Monday to do some hull work and I want to use epoxy cop for antfouling but don't know how many gallons I need, also the person who built this boat used salt water cooling and he said he filled the skeg with foam. If I have time I would really like to get rid of this cooling system and use Brent's, any advice on the best way to get rid of the foam would be appreciated? > > Cheers > > Vic. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29823|29817|2013-02-19 16:56:25|Boxer Alfie|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|Try paint thinner. We did some project in the past and dissolved pu in oaint thinnner. But it is too dangerous to use in mass amounts in small spaces so be aware... We give up the idea of dissolving it at the moment we prefer to scratch it and burn the tesidue on metal surface. At the moment. Tolga 15 Şub 2013 tarihinde 21:10 saatinde, martin demers şunları yazdı: > I would do some test on a small piece of foam to see what can disolve it, > I would start with acetone. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ursus_222@... > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 17:31:05 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > Pulling my boat out of water on Monday to do some hull work and I want to use epoxy cop for antfouling but don't know how many gallons I need, also the person who built this boat used salt water cooling and he said he filled the skeg with foam. If I have time I would really like to get rid of this cooling system and use Brent's, any advice on the best way to get rid of the foam would be appreciated? > > > > Cheers > > > > Vic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 29824|29817|2013-02-19 20:58:07|ursus_222|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|Thanks for the responses I will take a look at the calculator, the skeg will have to be removed, the way it is built it wouldn't hold more then a couple of gallons so when I redo the cockpit I will build another skeg and hopefully put in a bigger engine. The bottom of the hull in the middle of the boat had pinhole corrosion which they covered with epoxy so I am thinking of putting on a couple of doubler plates. Lots of blisters in the bottom paint filled with water, looks like wasser tar underneath the antifouling, the blisters go right through to clean bare metal. Cheers Vic.| 29825|29806|2013-02-20 00:26:19|wild_explorer|DIY Water Level (Re: Laser interior)|I made "water level" from garden hose to verify side-to-side hull leveling. I have to correct my comment about its accuracy. "Water level" is very handy and gives good results when "bubble level" cannot be used. For water level, I used parts from HD: - 50ft garden hose - Orbit 5/8 in. and 3/4 in. Hose Mender Kit - Watts 7/8 in. OD x 5/8 in. ID x 10 ft. PVC Tubing - 2 wood 36" yard sticks (with 1/8" marking) for mounting clear tubes and fast water level reference/offset_measurement If you have hose, cost is about $12-14 IMPORTANT!!! ***** Do NOT use small internal diameter clear tubes!!! It gives HUGE errors (because of surface tension, water viscosity, etc). I tried to use ~1/4" tube on one end and reading was unusable - it gave me 3" error over 10ft. ***** I compared it with Empire 12 in. True Blue Magnetic Tool Box Level. It has similar price ~$12-14 and good accuracy = 0.0005. I put 4x4 lumber on bulwark pipe which was used to test leveling of the hull side-to-side. Calculated precision for water level = 1/8" / 120" ~= 0.001 Which was about right compare to "bubble level". Accuracy of water level will be better with distance increase. I will live "water level" in place for fast check of hull leveling. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Leveling the hull with "tube level" is not as simple as it sounds, but VERY accurate. Some people use regular garden water hose with extra attachments on the ends (couplers and clear plastic tube extensions). > | 29826|29817|2013-02-20 14:05:40|idundidit2|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|> >Thanks Martin > > > >I will try your suggestion, I am assuming he had > >the guy who insulated the hull spray foam into > >the skeg but I will have a better idea when I > >get it out of the water on Monday, I was > >thinking about cutting a window in the skeg to > >see what I am dealing with and whether it is > >worth it to try to salvage this skeg or just cut it off and start over. > > > >Cheers > > > >Vic. > > > >--- In > >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > >martin demers wrote: > > > > > > I would do some test on a small piece of foam to see what can disolve it, > > > I would start with acetone. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Pressure washer?| 29827|29817|2013-02-20 18:56:14|brentswain38|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|One gallon spread thinly, will just barely do a coat. Two gallons is plenty. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ursus_222" wrote: > > Hi > > Pulling my boat out of water on Monday to do some hull work and I want to use epoxy cop for antfouling but don't know how many gallons I need, also the person who built this boat used salt water cooling and he said he filled the skeg with foam. If I have time I would really like to get rid of this cooling system and use Brent's, any advice on the best way to get rid of the foam would be appreciated? > > Cheers > > Vic. > | 29828|29817|2013-02-20 19:00:58|brentswain38|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|Pop the blisters and smell them .If they have a strong thinner smell, then the problem was thinner entrapment ,from either recoating or launching before the thinner had a chance to escape. If there is no smell , it was probably over zincing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ursus_222" wrote: > > Thanks for the responses I will take a look at the calculator, the skeg will have to be removed, the way it is built it wouldn't hold more then a couple of gallons so when I redo the cockpit I will build another skeg and hopefully put in a bigger engine. > > The bottom of the hull in the middle of the boat had pinhole corrosion which they covered with epoxy so I am thinking of putting on a couple of doubler plates. Lots of blisters in the bottom paint filled with water, looks like wasser tar underneath the antifouling, the blisters go right through to clean bare metal. > > Cheers > > Vic. > | 29829|29817|2013-02-20 19:07:02|brentswain38|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|Some strong paint removers will remove urethane. Epiglass had one which would dissolve polyester. A cooler can be built right into the hull plate, by building a steel box against the hull, hull plate being the bottom of the box, with flat bar baffles to make the water flow across as much hull plate as possible. Best do an overkill on area. This can even be done with the boat still in the water. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "idundidit2" wrote: > > > > > >Thanks Martin > > > > > >I will try your suggestion, I am assuming he had > > >the guy who insulated the hull spray foam into > > >the skeg but I will have a better idea when I > > >get it out of the water on Monday, I was > > >thinking about cutting a window in the skeg to > > >see what I am dealing with and whether it is > > >worth it to try to salvage this skeg or just cut it off and start over. > > > > > >Cheers > > > > > >Vic. > > > > > >--- In > > >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > >martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > I would do some test on a small piece of foam to see what can disolve it, > > > > I would start with acetone. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Pressure washer? > | 29830|29817|2013-02-20 21:28:41|Tom Pee|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|Good epoxy has no thinners in it otherwise while it is drying pinholes will develop from evaporated solvents. From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:00 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36   Pop the blisters and smell them .If they have a strong thinner smell, then the problem was thinner entrapment ,from either recoating or launching before the thinner had a chance to escape. If there is no smell , it was probably over zincing. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "ursus_222" wrote: > > Thanks for the responses I will take a look at the calculator, the skeg will have to be removed, the way it is built it wouldn't hold more then a couple of gallons so when I redo the cockpit I will build another skeg and hopefully put in a bigger engine. > > The bottom of the hull in the middle of the boat had pinhole corrosion which they covered with epoxy so I am thinking of putting on a couple of doubler plates. Lots of blisters in the bottom paint filled with water, looks like wasser tar underneath the antifouling, the blisters go right through to clean bare metal. > > Cheers > > Vic. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29831|29817|2013-02-20 21:48:37|ursus_222|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|Hey Brent Thanks, no smell that I could detect. Should I take it right down to bare metal or leave what looks like a very heavy epoxy except where it is blistered, any paint recommendations? I am doing the entire hull. Cheers Vic. wrote: > > Pop the blisters and smell them .If they have a strong thinner smell, then the problem was thinner entrapment ,from either recoating or launching before the thinner had a chance to escape. > If there is no smell , it was probably over zincing. | 29832|29817|2013-02-20 22:05:06|ursus_222|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|This would work for me, is this method included in your plans? I need to buy them anyway because this hull needs a lot of work I often think it wouldn't be easier to just build a new boat to be honest. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Some strong paint removers will remove urethane. Epiglass had one which would dissolve polyester. > A cooler can be built right into the hull plate, by building a steel box against the hull, hull plate being the bottom of the box, with flat bar baffles to make the water flow across as much hull plate as possible. Best do an overkill on area. > This can even be done with the boat still in the water. | 29833|29833|2013-02-22 20:51:05|Paul Wilson|North Cape|Howdy, I just got back from sailing my boat from New Plymouth to Russell, NZ via North Cape. I had a great trip....no problems at all. There was a big swell on the west coast which helped push us along. Max speed (according to the gps) was 10.8 knots with an average just under 6 knots. The approx 500 mile trip took 3 days and 3 hrs although I spent the last 12 hours motoring at 5 knots in almost no wind. It is really great to finally have my boat in Russell. Lovely spot. A couple of short videos here: http://www.youtube.com/user/opuspaul?feature=watch Brent, you really designed a great boat. Thank you. Cheers, Paul -- >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. | 29834|29833|2013-02-23 23:51:51|Paul Wilson|Re: North Cape|Oops....correction. The trip was 400 miles, not 500 so I am not quite as fast as I thought :). >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 23/02/2013 2:50 p.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > Howdy, > > I just got back from sailing my boat from New Plymouth to Russell, NZ > via North Cape. I had a great trip....no problems at all. There was a > big swell on the west coast which helped push us along. Max speed > (according to the gps) was 10.8 knots with an average just under 6 > knots. The approx 500 mile trip took 3 days and 3 hrs although I spent > the last 12 hours motoring at 5 knots in almost no wind. > > It is really great to finally have my boat in Russell. Lovely spot. > > A couple of short videos here: > > http://www.youtube.com/user/opuspaul?feature=watch > > Brent, you really designed a great boat. Thank you. > > Cheers, Paul > | 29835|29835|2013-02-24 00:05:55|GP|Boaters Exchange|Anyone know if there is a boater stuff swap meet on Vancouver Island upcoming? I have a nice floater coat, bomber style never used size large, quality Helly Hansen... good looking coat. Bought at Harbour Chandler in Nanaimo 3 yrs ago about $275. Make me a ridiculous offer or trade. I have a picture. ... thanks| 29836|29836|2013-02-25 05:56:42|Jesse Taylor|Jesse Taylor|http://www.moonsunlight.com/ow/eq.526t?lvl2eqzdx2/25/2013 11:56:39 AMJesse Taylor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29837|29837|2013-02-25 16:01:54|sunbear|Roller Furling|I have looked for this and cannot find. Brent gave instructions for a roller furler using sched 40 1 1/4" pipe--can somebody tell me what the thread was called or where located?? Thanks, MarkH| 29838|29837|2013-02-25 16:30:55|MICHAEL FELTON|Re: Roller Furling|Heres some pictures on how I did mine. I figure I will use a piece of pex to slide over my forestay and some pve pipe and couplers to act as a bearing, I dont remember the sizes I just ran to the hardware store and bought what fit.  From: sunbear To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 3:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Roller Furling   I have looked for this and cannot find. Brent gave instructions for a roller furler using sched 40 1 1/4" pipe--can somebody tell me what the thread was called or where located?? Thanks, MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29839|29837|2013-02-25 16:49:44|MICHAEL FELTON|Re: Roller Furling|forgot we couldn't attach files, I uploaded them to photo albums Labeled "furler" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29840|29837|2013-02-25 17:02:34|brentswain38|Re: Roller Furling|It's in my book. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sunbear" wrote: > > I have looked for this and cannot find. Brent gave instructions for a roller furler using sched 40 1 1/4" pipe--can somebody tell me what the thread was called or where located?? Thanks, MarkH > | 29841|29817|2013-02-25 17:08:54|brentswain38|Re: How many gallons of Epoxy Cop will I need for a 36|No,my plans call for using the skeg for a cooler. The hull heat exchanger is far easier on an old boat, the skeg is easier on a new skeg. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ursus_222" wrote: > > This would work for me, is this method included in your plans? I need to buy them anyway because this hull needs a lot of work I often think it wouldn't be easier to just build a new boat to be honest. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Some strong paint removers will remove urethane. Epiglass had one which would dissolve polyester. > > A cooler can be built right into the hull plate, by building a steel box against the hull, hull plate being the bottom of the box, with flat bar baffles to make the water flow across as much hull plate as possible. Best do an overkill on area. > > This can even be done with the boat still in the water. > | 29842|29833|2013-02-25 17:12:09|brentswain38|Re: North Cape|Thanks The east coast of Atearoa is far better cruising than the west coast. Far more good anchorages. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Howdy, > > I just got back from sailing my boat from New Plymouth to Russell, NZ > via North Cape. I had a great trip....no problems at all. There was a > big swell on the west coast which helped push us along. Max speed > (according to the gps) was 10.8 knots with an average just under 6 > knots. The approx 500 mile trip took 3 days and 3 hrs although I spent > the last 12 hours motoring at 5 knots in almost no wind. > > It is really great to finally have my boat in Russell. Lovely spot. > > A couple of short videos here: > > http://www.youtube.com/user/opuspaul?feature=watch > > Brent, you really designed a great boat. Thank you. > > Cheers, Paul > > -- > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > | 29843|29833|2013-02-25 18:40:16|Paul Wilson|Re: North Cape|There are almost no good ports on the west coast of NZ unless you go to the far south in Fiordland. In New Plymouth where I live they need to close the roads down near the waterfront in storms. The waves tossed 4 foot dia rocks and akmons up on the parking lot one night several years ago. It was a relief to get my boat out of here and up to Russell where she will be much safer. Go on youtube and watch the fishermen going over the bars on the wild west coast in Greymouth and other ports. This is an excellent series that will teach most sailors something about being prepared and never taking anything for granted. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0490CA5499D2DC88 Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 26/02/2013 11:12 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > Thanks > The east coast of Atearoa is far better cruising than the west coast. > Far more good anchorages. | 29844|29844|2013-02-27 08:07:56|Paul Wilson|Paul Wilson|http://www.loogik.com/teahgeay/82a7p.usjsenduc?xPaul Wilson2/27/2013 2:07:53 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29845|29844|2013-02-27 12:28:36|Paul Wilson|Re: Paul Wilson|Sorry, my yahoo account has been hacked. >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 28/02/2013 2:07 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > http://www.loogik.com/teahgeay/82a7p.usjsenduc?xPaul Wilson2/27/2013 > 2:07:53 PM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 29846|29844|2013-02-27 16:35:38|brentswain38|Re: Paul Wilson|Changing your password usually solves that problem. Using several languages( preferably obscure ones) along with lots of symbols makes it harder to crack. I got lots of Yahoo threats threatening to close my account and asking for my password. When I contacted yahoo about them, they said the only time they ever ask for a password is when you open a new account. Anything else asking for your password is a scam. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Sorry, my yahoo account has been hacked. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 28/02/2013 2:07 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > http://www.loogik.com/teahgeay/82a7p.usjsenduc?xPaul Wilson2/27/2013 > > 2:07:53 PM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 29847|29847|2013-02-27 20:33:19|wild_explorer|Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|I was hoping to wheelabrite and prime 1/8 sheets at the same place I blasted and primed some materials for my boat before. It is big company which service all businesses around and has a good reputation as well as low prices. So, their reason to refuse wheelabriting is not to get more money, but because they could not guaranty the quality of the finished product. They have no problem to work with 3/16 and up steel, but refuse to process 11 or 10 Ga steel. Most my plates/sheets are 11Ga, 48" and 60" wide. Their respond: ********** We cant wheelabrate this thin of material without damaging it. because of the heat an energy that the machine generates 11 gage plates will warp and roll up into a potato chip form. We can hand blast it and do less damage but it will still be slightly warped at the end. The cost is significantly more to blast by hand but it will do minimal damage. Just to be clear this will do less damage but it will still do some warping to the plate but you should be able to straighten it back out at least. ********** They suggest to assemble the structure from 1/8" steel and hand blast whole thing. Any ideas, experience on this matter?| 29848|29847|2013-02-27 20:55:51|Tom Mann|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|Blasting after assembly is not bad, I didn't notice any warpage from blasting but i was running a smaller nozzle with about 70 pound pressure. another option would be to go with 10 or 12 gage galvanized sheets ,cheaper than sand blasting if you don't mind working with it On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 5:33 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > I was hoping to wheelabrite and prime 1/8 sheets at the same place I > blasted and primed some materials for my boat before. It is big company > which service all businesses around and has a good reputation as well as > low prices. So, their reason to refuse wheelabriting is not to get more > money, but because they could not guaranty the quality of the finished > product. They have no problem to work with 3/16 and up steel, but refuse to > process 11 or 10 Ga steel. > > Most my plates/sheets are 11Ga, 48" and 60" wide. > > > Their respond: > ********** > We cant wheelabrate this thin of material without damaging it. because of > the heat an energy that the machine generates 11 gage plates will warp and > roll up into a potato chip form. We can hand blast it and do less damage > but it will still be slightly warped at the end. The cost is significantly > more to blast by hand but it will do minimal damage. Just to be clear > this will do less damage but it will still do some warping to the plate but > you should be able to straighten it back out at least. > ********** > > They suggest to assemble the structure from 1/8" steel and hand blast > whole thing. > > Any ideas, experience on this matter? > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29849|29847|2013-02-27 21:25:45|Paul Wilson|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|I remember them saying the same thing to me.....that wheel abrating will put a slight dish on 1/8 inch sheets. This is not really a problem since you will end up using them curved anyway. Just use the curve to your advantage when you lay it out. Once I assured them that a slight dish to the thinner 1/8 inch plate was OK, they went ahead. FWIW, when they delivered the plates, I don't remember any dishing to the sheets.....maybe the dishing to the plates is more if they are too aggressive or maybe they are just covering their ass since they have had customers complain in the past? Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. | 29850|29847|2013-02-27 21:48:54|wild_explorer|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|Yep, may be going for galvanized will be more economical than hand blasting. It would make sense if I could whillabrite & prime steel, but now it looks like using galvanized may be cheaper. Standard galvanized 10ga sheets are limited 36 & 48" wide only. I need to check the price from supplier who can custom-cut coil to length I need, but sheets will be limited up to 60" wide only as well. P.S. Pro & cons of using galvanized steel were already discussed recently. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Blasting after assembly is not bad, I didn't notice any warpage from > blasting but i was running a smaller nozzle with about 70 pound pressure. > another option would be to go with 10 or 12 gage galvanized sheets ,cheaper > than sand blasting if you don't mind working with it > | 29851|29847|2013-02-28 07:06:48|Robert Jones|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|Has anyone in the group ever used water shielded soda blasting? Really fast and dust free. Should be able to rent one for two days and blast the whole boat. Uses baking soda  purchased in 50 # bags? --- On Wed, 2/27/13, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 7:48 PM   Yep, may be going for galvanized will be more economical than hand blasting. It would make sense if I could whillabrite & prime steel, but now it looks like using galvanized may be cheaper. Standard galvanized 10ga sheets are limited 36 & 48" wide only. I need to check the price from supplier who can custom-cut coil to length I need, but sheets will be limited up to 60" wide only as well. P.S. Pro & cons of using galvanized steel were already discussed recently. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Blasting after assembly is not bad, I didn't notice any warpage from > blasting but i was running a smaller nozzle with about 70 pound pressure. > another option would be to go with 10 or 12 gage galvanized sheets ,cheaper > than sand blasting if you don't mind working with it > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29852|29847|2013-02-28 12:32:22|wild_explorer|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|I wondering if it will be able to clean metal to a required standard for surface preparation SSPC-SP10 (NACE #2) - for painting.... It will need very high pressure for the water. Simple soda blasters usually are used for paint/dirt removal. But it does not look like it works good for rust removal. Here is simple DIY soda blaster ;) http://www.aircooledtech.com/tools-on-the-cheap/soda_blaster/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Has anyone in the group ever used water shielded soda blasting? Really fast and dust free. Should be able to rent one for two days and blast the whole boat. Uses baking soda  purchased in 50 # bags? > | 29853|29847|2013-02-28 13:22:45|Robert Jones|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|The way the one i used worked was with a rented high volume air compressor that attatched to the feeder on the soda unit. The water is supplied by ordinary garden hose and used only as a cone around the blasting area to eliminate dust as the soda blasted. That way, with a small amount of water, the blasted materal falls directly on the ground. My experience was when i trained for federal lead abatement licensure. They had one to teach us an environmentally friendly way to blast bridges(containment and area and water recycling under bridge) or water tanks and such. We took a car with perfectly good paint and in 10 minutes we stripped half to shiny metal while never etching glass, or taking chrome off. Pretty slick. The thing gets the metal so slick(flat) that they recommended rough sanding prior to repainting so the paint would adhere. Since, i have met one body shop that used this technique to repaint antique cars without having to take window rubber or glass out, since it is expensive and sometimes impossible to replace those items. He was sold on it. Other than that one day, i have never used it because i have a couple of traditional sand blasting units. Much slower and nastier but paid for! robert --- On Thu, 2/28/13, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 28, 2013, 10:32 AM   I wondering if it will be able to clean metal to a required standard for surface preparation SSPC-SP10 (NACE #2) - for painting.... It will need very high pressure for the water. Simple soda blasters usually are used for paint/dirt removal. But it does not look like it works good for rust removal. Here is simple DIY soda blaster ;) http://www.aircooledtech.com/tools-on-the-cheap/soda_blaster/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Has anyone in the group ever used water shielded soda blasting? Really fast and dust free. Should be able to rent one for two days and blast the whole boat. Uses baking soda  purchased in 50 # bags? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29854|29847|2013-02-28 14:02:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|The right blast profile using the right grit is very important for proper paint adhesion. I had the bottom of my boat blasted about a year ago. The guy doing it could have used soda since he commonly did soda blasting as well but said that silica sand of the right grit is still the first choice. All of the paint came off the bottom of my boat in only 3 or 4 hours. This was multiple coats of epoxy and anti-fouling. A large nozzle with lots of air and sharp silica sand makes quick work of it but it hard to think of anything more dusty and dirty. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 1/03/2013 7:22 a.m., Robert Jones wrote: > > The way the one i used worked was with a rented high volume air > compressor that attatched to the feeder on the soda unit. The water is > supplied by ordinary garden hose and used only as a cone around the > blasting area to eliminate dust as the soda blasted. That way, with a > small amount of water, the blasted materal falls directly on the > ground. My experience was when i trained for federal lead abatement > licensure. They had one to teach us an environmentally friendly way to > blast bridges(containment and area and water recycling under bridge) > or water tanks and such. We took a car with perfectly good paint and > in 10 minutes we stripped half to shiny metal while never etching > glass, or taking chrome off. Pretty slick. The thing gets the metal so > slick(flat) that they recommended rough sanding prior to repainting so > the paint would adhere. Since, i have met one body shop that used this > technique to repaint antique cars without having to take window rubber or > glass out, since it is expensive and sometimes impossible to replace > those items. He was sold on it. Other than that one day, i have never > used it because i have a couple of traditional sand blasting units. > Much slower and nastier but paid for! robert > | 29855|29855|2013-02-28 18:04:36|smallboatvoyaguer|Galvanized Standing Rigging|I would like to replace my existing stainless standing rigging with galvanized, and I can't remember the details on high tensile/ low tensile and if it was to be 1x7 or 1x19. I am in fresh water. Also, If anyone knows a reputable place to purchase that would be great to know too. One of my shrouds and my fore-stay have frayed. I ignored the disclaimer in the front of Brent's book (the one about not lending it out) and wouldn't you know what happened... Thanks!| 29856|29855|2013-02-28 18:07:49|brentswain38|Re: Galvanized Standing Rigging|I use 1x7 high tensile sch 180 , common in all industrial wire rope sources. High tensile is super springy and three times the strength of low tensile, which bends like lead. Try bend it and the difference is obvious Avoid the low tensile stuff. 1x7 is what they use for telephone pole guy wires. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "smallboatvoyaguer" wrote: > > I would like to replace my existing stainless standing rigging with galvanized, and I can't remember the details on high tensile/ low tensile and if it was to be 1x7 or 1x19. I am in fresh water. Also, If anyone knows a reputable place to purchase that would be great to know too. One of my shrouds and my fore-stay have frayed. > I ignored the disclaimer in the front of Brent's book (the one about not lending it out) and wouldn't you know what happened... > Thanks! > | 29857|29847|2013-02-28 18:14:05|brentswain38|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|They have been telling us that for decades . We simply state that we will not claim any compensation if it is warped, and we have not had any warped enough to be even noticeable, not even 11 gauge. With all the stiffeners on it wouldn't matter anyway. Offer to sign a statement that you will not claim any compensation if it is warped and that it doesn't matter to you. Some have screwed things up for everyone by claiming compensation when it didn't matter. Nitpicking greed screws things up for everyone. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was hoping to wheelabrite and prime 1/8 sheets at the same place I blasted and primed some materials for my boat before. It is big company which service all businesses around and has a good reputation as well as low prices. So, their reason to refuse wheelabriting is not to get more money, but because they could not guaranty the quality of the finished product. They have no problem to work with 3/16 and up steel, but refuse to process 11 or 10 Ga steel. > > Most my plates/sheets are 11Ga, 48" and 60" wide. > > > Their respond: > ********** > We cant wheelabrate this thin of material without damaging it. because of the heat an energy that the machine generates 11 gage plates will warp and roll up into a potato chip form. We can hand blast it and do less damage but it will still be slightly warped at the end. The cost is significantly more to blast by hand but it will do minimal damage. Just to be clear this will do less damage but it will still do some warping to the plate but you should be able to straighten it back out at least. > ********** > > They suggest to assemble the structure from 1/8" steel and hand blast whole thing. > > Any ideas, experience on this matter? > | 29858|29847|2013-02-28 18:18:28|brentswain38|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|Blasting is a huge pain in the ass, to be avoided if possible, especially on the inside. A client got 5X12 ft sheets from a scrapyard for $12 a sheet. We made up the rusty deck panels, then he took the panels to a blaster to have them blasted, and primed , before putting them in. Far simpler than blasting them in place, especially inside. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Blasting after assembly is not bad, I didn't notice any warpage from > blasting but i was running a smaller nozzle with about 70 pound pressure. > another option would be to go with 10 or 12 gage galvanized sheets ,cheaper > than sand blasting if you don't mind working with it > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 5:33 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > I was hoping to wheelabrite and prime 1/8 sheets at the same place I > > blasted and primed some materials for my boat before. It is big company > > which service all businesses around and has a good reputation as well as > > low prices. So, their reason to refuse wheelabriting is not to get more > > money, but because they could not guaranty the quality of the finished > > product. They have no problem to work with 3/16 and up steel, but refuse to > > process 11 or 10 Ga steel. > > > > Most my plates/sheets are 11Ga, 48" and 60" wide. > > > > > > Their respond: > > ********** > > We cant wheelabrate this thin of material without damaging it. because of > > the heat an energy that the machine generates 11 gage plates will warp and > > roll up into a potato chip form. We can hand blast it and do less damage > > but it will still be slightly warped at the end. The cost is significantly > > more to blast by hand but it will do minimal damage. Just to be clear > > this will do less damage but it will still do some warping to the plate but > > you should be able to straighten it back out at least. > > ********** > > > > They suggest to assemble the structure from 1/8" steel and hand blast > > whole thing. > > > > Any ideas, experience on this matter? > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29859|29847|2013-02-28 19:04:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|The wheel abrading failed (paint poorly applied by the vendor) so I ended up having to sandblast the inside and outside of my boat. Sandblasting the inside was probably one of the worst experiences in my life....an absolutely horrible dirty job. Sandblasting the outside was a piece of cake in comparison. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 1/03/2013 12:18 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Blasting is a huge pain in the ass, to be avoided if possible, > especially on the inside. A client got 5X12 ft sheets from a scrapyard > for $12 a sheet. We made up the rusty deck panels, then he took the > panels to a blaster to have them blasted, and primed , before putting > them in. Far simpler than blasting them in place, especially inside. | 29860|29847|2013-02-28 20:10:18|wild_explorer|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|It looks like I have only 2 options now. Going for galvanized or wheelabriting and priming part assemblies. I called wheel@prime company and asked them if they will blast assemblies (11ga plates with stiffeners). They do not see any problems to put it through abriting equipment. Price for both options is pretty close. I begin to lean toward galvanized (if I can get plate sizes I need) - no worries about painting for some time ;). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > Blasting is a huge pain in the ass, to be avoided if possible, especially on the inside. A client got 5X12 ft sheets from a scrapyard for $12 a sheet. We made up the rusty deck panels, then he took the panels to a blaster to have them blasted, and primed , before putting them in. Far simpler than blasting them in place, especially inside. > | 29861|29847|2013-02-28 22:56:21|Darren Bos|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|I've been playing around with one of the sandblasting attachments that goes on a pressure washer that someone else here recommended and it seems pretty good. I haven't done anything large yet, but it combines the advantages of soda blasting (less mess, no dust) and sandblasting (nice tooth on the surface). You need a larger pressure washer (something over 11HP, where the common residential unit is only about 5hp), but most boatyards have that already for washing the hulls as they are pulled out. Seems to use a fair bit of sand, but haven't done a head to head comparison with a regular sandblaster. A large tarp with some burlap bags on the low side to filter the water makes it easy to contain most of the mess. Darren At 11:01 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: > > >The right blast profile using the right grit is very important for >proper paint adhesion. I had the bottom of my boat blasted about a year >ago. The guy doing it could have used soda since he commonly did soda >blasting as well but said that silica sand of the right grit is still >the first choice. > >All of the paint came off the bottom of my boat in only 3 or 4 hours. >This was multiple coats of epoxy and anti-fouling. A large nozzle with >lots of air and sharp silica sand makes quick work of it but it hard to >think of anything more dusty and dirty. > >Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸>Â>¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸. > > > >`•.¸¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸>Â>¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸. >…. >br> >On 1/03/2013 7:22 a.m., Robert Jones wrote: > > > > The way the one i used worked was with a rented high volume air > > compressor that attatched to the feeder on the soda unit. The water is > > supplied by ordinary garden hose and used only as a cone around the > > blasting area to eliminate dust as the soda blasted. That way, with a > > small amount of water, the blasted materal falls directly on the > > ground. My experience was when i trained for federal lead abatement > > licensure. They had one to teach us an environmentally friendly way to > > blast bridges(containment and area and water recycling under bridge) > > or water tanks and such. We took a car with perfectly good paint and > > in 10 minutes we stripped half to shiny metal while never etching > > glass, or taking chrome off. Pretty slick. The thing gets the metal so > > slick(flat) that they recommended rough sanding prior to repainting so > > the paint would adhere. Since, i have met one body shop that used this > > technique to repaint antique cars without having to take window rubber or > > glass out, since it is expensive and sometimes impossible to replace > > those items. He was sold on it. Other than that one day, i have never > > used it because i have a couple of traditional sand blasting units. > > Much slower and nastier but paid for! robert > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29862|29862|2013-03-01 07:52:19|Robert Jones|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|Darren, please keep us informed on the water/sand blaster and how satisfied you are with it. Also, how fast it goes and if you get a reasonable comparison. Thank you! robert --- On Thu, 2/28/13, Darren Bos wrote: From: Darren Bos Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 28, 2013, 8:56 PM   I've been playing around with one of the sandblasting attachments that goes on a pressure washer that someone else here recommended and it seems pretty good. I haven't done anything large yet, but it combines the advantages of soda blasting (less mess, no dust) and sandblasting (nice tooth on the surface). You need a larger pressure washer (something over 11HP, where the common residential unit is only about 5hp), but most boatyards have that already for washing the hulls as they are pulled out. Seems to use a fair bit of sand, but haven't done a head to head comparison with a regular sandblaster. A large tarp with some burlap bags on the low side to filter the water makes it easy to contain most of the mess. Darren At 11:01 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: > > >The right blast profile using the right grit is very important for >proper paint adhesion. I had the bottom of my boat blasted about a year >ago. The guy doing it could have used soda since he commonly did soda >blasting as well but said that silica sand of the right grit is still >the first choice. > >All of the paint came off the bottom of my boat in only 3 or 4 hours. >This was multiple coats of epoxy and anti-fouling. A large nozzle with >lots of air and sharp silica sand makes quick work of it but it hard to >think of anything more dusty and dirty. > >Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸>Â>¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸. > > > >`•.¸¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸>Â>¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸. >…. >br> >On 1/03/2013 7:22 a.m., Robert Jones wrote: > > > > The way the one i used worked was with a rented high volume air > > compressor that attatched to the feeder on the soda unit. The water is > > supplied by ordinary garden hose and used only as a cone around the > > blasting area to eliminate dust as the soda blasted. That way, with a > > small amount of water, the blasted materal falls directly on the > > ground. My experience was when i trained for federal lead abatement > > licensure. They had one to teach us an environmentally friendly way to > > blast bridges(containment and area and water recycling under bridge) > > or water tanks and such. We took a car with perfectly good paint and > > in 10 minutes we stripped half to shiny metal while never etching > > glass, or taking chrome off. Pretty slick. The thing gets the metal so > > slick(flat) that they recommended rough sanding prior to repainting so > > the paint would adhere. Since, i have met one body shop that used this > > technique to repaint antique cars without having to take window rubber or > > glass out, since it is expensive and sometimes impossible to replace > > those items. He was sold on it. Other than that one day, i have never > > used it because i have a couple of traditional sand blasting units. > > Much slower and nastier but paid for! robert > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29863|29847|2013-03-01 21:25:59|wild_explorer|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|I was looking for 11 or 10Ga galvanized steel. It turned out that 11ga is very hard to find at all. To find 10ga steel is easier, but still not so simple. But... I found some information on service life of galvanized material. *********** Note: Service life is defined as the time to 5% rusting of the steel surface. *********** Most common material is A653 with G90 coating (industrial quality coating, base metal has the same specs as A36). Service life for this material for Marine/Tropical_Marine service is 8-10 years (without paint). It would be nice to have deck and superstructure made from galvanized steel, but it is hard to find material in sizes needed (even for 36 footer).| 29864|29864|2013-03-02 04:01:07|Kim|A very serious distraction to boatbuilding!|Hi guys ... Completely off-topic ... About 6 weeks ago I bought one of these: http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_AU/Motorcycles/iron-883.html#!overview http://smu.gs/Y58l0M It's not the fastest bike I've owned. It's not the best-handling bike I've owned. But bloody hell, it's by far the most completely awesome machine I've ever had! I just love it! Can't stop riding it! :-) Work on my boat has slowed down a bit over the last month or so! :-) Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________| 29865|29864|2013-03-02 12:00:53|wild_explorer|Re: A very serious distraction to boatbuilding!|If it had water-cooled engine, you could use it as the engine for the boat. Just imagine yourself sitting on the bike in boat's pilothouse and twisting the throttle ;)) Personally, I do not like anything with electronic fuel injection (no adjustment). Bike is very expensive to service (if you do not do it by yourself and use it as primary transportation). Good looking bike though. Just ride it slow - this bike is for the "show", not for racing ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > It's not the fastest bike I've owned. It's not the best-handling bike I've owned. But bloody hell, it's by far the most completely awesome machine I've ever had! > > I just love it! Can't stop riding it! :-) > > Work on my boat has slowed down a bit over the last month or so! :-) > > Cheers ... > > Kim. | 29866|29847|2013-03-02 19:44:51|Stan Philippon|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|Using dry abrasives a mildsteel surface blasted to a white finish will start to rust within half an hour on a humid day so I really don't think that water blasting is all that great an idea for paint preparation. At 11:32 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: > > >I wondering if it will be able to clean metal to >a required standard for surface preparation >SSPC-SP10 (NACE #2) - for painting.... It will >need very high pressure for the water. > >Simple soda blasters usually are used for >paint/dirt removal. But it does not look like it works good for rust removal. > >Here is simple DIY soda blaster ;) > >http://www.aircooledtech.com/tools-on-the-cheap/soda_blaster/ > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Robert Jones wrote: > > > > Has anyone in the group ever used water > shielded soda blasting? Really fast and dust > free. Should be able to rent one for two days > and blast the whole boat. Uses baking soda purchased in 50 # bags? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29867|29847|2013-03-02 19:50:44|brentswain38|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|Friends hauled out in Ventura California in hot summer weather and wet blasted their boat, then immediately followed behind the blaster with rags, wiping the hull dry , before letting it dry completely , not long in the hot dry weather, then gave her several coats of epoxy tar. It worked out well, but would be a disaster in anything but hot dry weather. Another friend did the same in Texas with good results. Some epoxies are more rust tolerant than others. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Stan Philippon wrote: > > Using dry abrasives a mildsteel surface blasted > to a white finish will start to rust within half > an hour on a humid day so I really don't think > that water blasting is all that great an idea for paint preparation. > > > At 11:32 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: > > > > > >I wondering if it will be able to clean metal to > >a required standard for surface preparation > >SSPC-SP10 (NACE #2) - for painting.... It will > >need very high pressure for the water. > > > >Simple soda blasters usually are used for > >paint/dirt removal. But it does not look like it works good for rust removal. > > > >Here is simple DIY soda blaster ;) > > > >http://www.aircooledtech.com/tools-on-the-cheap/soda_blaster/ > > > >--- In > >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > >Robert Jones wrote: > > > > > > Has anyone in the group ever used water > > shielded soda blasting? Really fast and dust > > free. Should be able to rent one for two days > > and blast the whole boat. Uses baking soda purchased in 50 # bags? > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29868|29847|2013-03-02 19:55:16|brentswain38|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|I've never had any problems with zinc primed wheelabraded plate, as log as it doesn't sit out in the rain for years before recoating it. If it is getting a bit late, giving her another coat of zinc can save your wheelabrading, and avoid having to sandblast her.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The wheel abrading failed (paint poorly applied by the vendor) so I > ended up having to sandblast the inside and outside of my boat. > Sandblasting the inside was probably one of the worst experiences in my > life....an absolutely horrible dirty job. Sandblasting the outside was a > piece of cake in comparison. Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 1/03/2013 12:18 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Blasting is a huge pain in the ass, to be avoided if possible, > > especially on the inside. A client got 5X12 ft sheets from a scrapyard > > for $12 a sheet. We made up the rusty deck panels, then he took the > > panels to a blaster to have them blasted, and primed , before putting > > them in. Far simpler than blasting them in place, especially inside. > | 29869|29847|2013-03-02 19:56:52|brentswain38|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|Where did you buy it? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > I've been playing around with one of the > sandblasting attachments that goes on a pressure > washer that someone else here recommended and it > seems pretty good. I haven't done anything large > yet, but it combines the advantages of soda > blasting (less mess, no dust) and sandblasting > (nice tooth on the surface). You need a larger > pressure washer (something over 11HP, where the > common residential unit is only about 5hp), but > most boatyards have that already for washing the > hulls as they are pulled out. Seems to use a > fair bit of sand, but haven't done a head to head > comparison with a regular sandblaster. A large > tarp with some burlap bags on the low side to > filter the water makes it easy to contain most of the mess. > > Darren > > > At 11:01 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: > > > > > >The right blast profile using the right grit is very important for > >proper paint adhesion. I had the bottom of my boat blasted about a year > >ago. The guy doing it could have used soda since he commonly did soda > >blasting as well but said that silica sand of the right grit is still > >the first choice. > > > >All of the paint came off the bottom of my boat in only 3 or 4 hours. > >This was multiple coats of epoxy and anti-fouling. A large nozzle with > >lots of air and sharp silica sand makes quick work of it but it hard to > >think of anything more dusty and dirty. > > > >Paul > > > > >`•.¸¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸>Â>¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸. > > > > >`•.¸¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸>Â>¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸. >…. > >br> > >On 1/03/2013 7:22 a.m., Robert Jones wrote: > > > > > > The way the one i used worked was with a rented high volume air > > > compressor that attatched to the feeder on the soda unit. The water is > > > supplied by ordinary garden hose and used only as a cone around the > > > blasting area to eliminate dust as the soda blasted. That way, with a > > > small amount of water, the blasted materal falls directly on the > > > ground. My experience was when i trained for federal lead abatement > > > licensure. They had one to teach us an environmentally friendly way to > > > blast bridges(containment and area and water recycling under bridge) > > > or water tanks and such. We took a car with perfectly good paint and > > > in 10 minutes we stripped half to shiny metal while never etching > > > glass, or taking chrome off. Pretty slick. The thing gets the metal so > > > slick(flat) that they recommended rough sanding prior to repainting so > > > the paint would adhere. Since, i have met one body shop that used this > > > technique to repaint antique cars without having to take window rubber or > > > glass out, since it is expensive and sometimes impossible to replace > > > those items. He was sold on it. Other than that one day, i have never > > > used it because i have a couple of traditional sand blasting units. > > > Much slower and nastier but paid for! robert > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29870|29870|2013-03-02 20:08:54|Robert Jones|Re: Problems for blasting (Soda Blasting ??)|stan, i have stated my very limited exposure to soda blasting which is why i asked had anyone tried it. Your rust concern let me to do some research and it seems that it causes less of a problem than course media(sand), and just to ward off the next question, yes you should also wash the dust film and crevice sand off prior to priming when using sand also. The first link is a great thread from a forum. rj http://assets1.hubgarage.com/mygarage/gainsborough/blogs/11104 http://www.eastwood.com/abrasive-blast-media-vs-soda-blast-media-removing-rust-and-paint-with-media http://www.theblastmasters.com/FAQs.html#How quick will rust occur --- On Thu, 2/28/13, Stan Philippon wrote: From: Stan Philippon Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 28, 2013, 4:51 PM   Using dry abrasives a mildsteel surface blasted to a white finish will start to rust within half an hour on a humid day so I really don't think that water blasting is all that great an idea for paint preparation. At 11:32 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: > > >I wondering if it will be able to clean metal to >a required standard for surface preparation >SSPC-SP10 (NACE #2) - for painting.... It will >need very high pressure for the water. > >Simple soda blasters usually are used for >paint/dirt removal. But it does not look like it works good for rust removal. > >Here is simple DIY soda blaster ;) > >http://www.aircooledtech.com/tools-on-the-cheap/soda_blaster/http://www.aircooledtech.com/tools-on-the-cheap/soda_blaster/ > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Robert Jones wrote: > > > > Has anyone in the group ever used water > shielded soda blasting? Really fast and dust > free. Should be able to rent one for two days > and blast the whole boat. Uses baking soda purchased in 50 # bags? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29871|29870|2013-03-02 21:29:51|wild_explorer|Re: Problems for blasting (Soda Blasting ??)|This is really good information. I need to do more research, but it looks like dry soda blasting is an alternative to sandblasting in the areas where primer failed on wheelabrited steel. Could be used to clean welds or seams before welding as well. What about phosphating (Phosphate coating) after removing soda by power washer? It looks like it could be applied by spray even on wet steel and will create protective coating good for painting. Does anybody have an experience doing phosphating by spray and with what? Another alternative is clear coating to protect steel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > > stan, i have stated my very limited exposure to soda blasting which is why i asked had anyone tried it. Your rust concern let me to do some research and it seems that it causes less of a problem than course media(sand), and just to ward off the next question, yes you should also wash the dust film and crevice sand off prior to priming when using sand also. The first link is a great thread from a forum. rj > http://assets1.hubgarage.com/mygarage/gainsborough/blogs/11104 > http://www.eastwood.com/abrasive-blast-media-vs-soda-blast-media-removing-rust-and-paint-with-media > http://www.theblastmasters.com/FAQs.html#How quick will rust occur > | 29872|29872|2013-03-03 02:41:56|wild_explorer|TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as rust |When I was looking on effect of baking soda on steel (for soda blasting), I found information that baking soda is used for molecular steel passivation against rust. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodablasting http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03822.htm I found as well 2009 study about TSP. The conclusion was that TSP provides antiscaling and good corrosion protection of carbon steel. I have noticed that the welds and plate's areas I cleaned with TSP (after power brushing) holds zinc touch-up primer very well and stay free from corrosion. Areas cleaned and degreased by other means (solvents) not so good. Any experience using TSP and baking soda as rust inhibitors?| 29873|29872|2013-03-03 08:54:32|Robert Jones|Glass Blasting|First time watched, but looks good so far. The first is commercial model. The second link is a smaller assume, made by same company. You could buy the pot and rent the compressor. This interests me because i would think the glass would wash away easier and  it is said to rough the paint up enough to prime with further conditioning. As i understand it you rinse with a rust inhibitor.  i know nothing of this company, just researching. Interesting! anyone with experience??? rj http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_344898&feature=iv&src_vid=nucYBS4B0bc&v=bCehkkTTeMk http://dustlessblasting.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29874|29872|2013-03-03 09:09:42|Robert Jones|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|Good dry soda blasting video from a what appears to be a medium sized machine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRLBECBiFQQ --- On Sun, 3/3/13, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as rust inhibitors? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 3, 2013, 12:41 AM   When I was looking on effect of baking soda on steel (for soda blasting), I found information that baking soda is used for molecular steel passivation against rust. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodablasting http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03822.htm I found as well 2009 study about TSP. The conclusion was that TSP provides antiscaling and good corrosion protection of carbon steel. I have noticed that the welds and plate's areas I cleaned with TSP (after power brushing) holds zinc touch-up primer very well and stay free from corrosion. Areas cleaned and degreased by other means (solvents) not so good. Any experience using TSP and baking soda as rust inhibitors? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29875|29872|2013-03-03 12:19:25|wild_explorer|Re: Glass Blasting|As I understand, This is just different media for blasting - glass pellets. Car blasting is different that what we need for boat. For cars, blasting should keep surface smooth - for better look. Surface preparation for boat should be rough for good paint adhesion to stand severe service protection (as marine usage described). Could be used to strip old paint though. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > First time watched, but looks good so far. The first is commercial model. The second link is a smaller assume, made by same company. You could buy the pot and rent the compressor. This interests me because i would think the glass would wash away easier and  it is said to rough the paint up enough to prime with further conditioning. As i understand it you rinse with a rust inhibitor.  i know nothing of this company, just researching. Interesting! anyone with experience??? rj > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_344898&feature=iv&src_vid=nucYBS4B0bc&v=bCehkkTTeMk > > http://dustlessblasting.com/ | 29876|29872|2013-03-03 13:11:30|wild_explorer|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|Looks like dry soda blasting equipment is different than the rest of blasting equipment. Regular blasting equipment uses "gravity feed" media introduced to the air or water stream (media is sucked in just before nozzle, which allows to use different blasting media) and this mixture goes into the nozzle. Dry soda equipment uses blasting media pushed directly to the nozzle from the tank through main hose by compressed air (which pumped into blast media tank). So, dry soda blasting equipment cannot be used for other blasting media. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Good dry soda blasting video from a what appears to be a medium sized machine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRLBECBiFQQ | 29877|29872|2013-03-03 13:35:38|wild_explorer|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|Another rust inhibitor HoldTight 102 (48-120 hr protection from flash rust) after blasting the steel. Looks like what we may need for compatibility with marine paints. http://www.holdtight.com/?page_id=33| 29878|29872|2013-03-03 16:30:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Glass Blasting|Blast profile is important. You can also do ultra high pressure blasting. It is very expensive equipment, usually with licensed operators since it can be dangerous at about 35,000 psi. It will strip everything using no blast media at all. If the steel was previously blasted, the profile will still be there under the paint so this is acceptable. On new work, with clean rolled steel and mill scale, I would go with sandblasting if I couldn't get the steel wheel abraded. There are several paints developed for water blasted or poorly prepared steel. If I was water blasting, I would use one of these. You don't need much since it is thin and really wicks in to the steel. Really good stuff. http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/sealer_PDS_AI.pdf http://www.corrosioncoatings.com/catalog/pdf/Carboline/Rustbond-FC.pdf Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 4/03/2013 6:19 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > As I understand, This is just different media for blasting - glass > pellets. Car blasting is different that what we need for boat. For > cars, blasting should keep surface smooth - for better look. Surface > preparation for boat should be rough for good paint adhesion to stand > severe service protection (as marine usage described). Could be used > to strip old paint though. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Robert Jones wrote: > > > > First time watched, but looks good so far. The first is commercial > model. The second link is a smaller assume, made by same company. You > could buy the pot and rent the compressor. This interests me because i > would think the glass would wash away easier and it is said to rough > the paint up enough to prime with further conditioning. As i > understand it you rinse with a rust inhibitor. i know nothing of this > company, just researching. Interesting! anyone with experience??? rj > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_344898&feature=iv&src_vid=nucYBS4B0bc&v=bCehkkTTeMk > > > > http://dustlessblasting.com/ > > | 29879|29847|2013-03-03 16:39:44|Paul Wilson|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|This is the one I have.....I have only used it a bit on small items with a 5 hp water blaster. I found any moisture getting in to the sand will clog it up and stop it from being sucked up the sand hose. Keeping the sand dry on a big job would be very difficult. It was very slow compared to a large commercial sand blaster but what can you expect for $100. http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/8067399/Components/Wet-Sandblast-Kit http://www.princessauto.com/hlr-system/Documents/80/806/8067/8067399_manual.pdf Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 3/03/2013 1:56 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > Where did you buy it? | 29880|29847|2013-03-03 17:13:32|Paul Wilson|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|In action..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqPiF49DZu4& >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 4/03/2013 10:38 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > This is the one I have.....I have only used it a bit on small items with > a 5 hp water blaster. I found any moisture getting in to the sand will > clog it up and stop it from being sucked up the sand hose. Keeping the > sand dry on a big job would be very difficult. It was very slow compared > to a large commercial sand blaster but what can you expect for $100. > > http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/8067399/Components/Wet-Sandblast-Kit > > http://www.princessauto.com/hlr-system/Documents/80/806/8067/8067399_manual.pdf > > Cheers, Paul > >> `•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 3/03/2013 1:56 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: >> Where did you buy it? > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 29881|29872|2013-03-03 17:24:01|Robert Jones|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|The "wet soda" that we used comes out of a dry hose and has a small water line running beside that sprays a cone or curtain of water around the blast site, at low pressure, as a shield strictly for dust control. The glass blaster that i linked appears to let the water enter the pressure pot to carry the glass down the line at HP. All seem good methods, but the glass seems like the best, if works as advertised because low dust, proper etching, low cost media(a little more than sand at $10/50#), but harder surrounding cleanup than ice or water. The dry ice probably is best, but if like other dry ice i've used, somewhat expensive. Would be awesome in an engine room, or enclosed space! rj --- On Sun, 3/3/13, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as rust inhibitors? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 3, 2013, 11:11 AM   Looks like dry soda blasting equipment is different than the rest of blasting equipment. Regular blasting equipment uses "gravity feed" media introduced to the air or water stream (media is sucked in just before nozzle, which allows to use different blasting media) and this mixture goes into the nozzle. Dry soda equipment uses blasting media pushed directly to the nozzle from the tank through main hose by compressed air (which pumped into blast media tank). So, dry soda blasting equipment cannot be used for other blasting media. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Good dry soda blasting video from a what appears to be a medium sized machine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRLBECBiFQQ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29882|29847|2013-03-03 18:35:40|brentswain38|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|Princes Auto has just opened a store near Victoria ( Langford) with as much stock as Winnipeg, but I didn't see it in their catalogue. Hope they can still get one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > This is the one I have.....I have only used it a bit on small items with > a 5 hp water blaster. I found any moisture getting in to the sand will > clog it up and stop it from being sucked up the sand hose. Keeping the > sand dry on a big job would be very difficult. It was very slow compared > to a large commercial sand blaster but what can you expect for $100. > > http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/8067399/Components/Wet-Sandblast-Kit > > http://www.princessauto.com/hlr-system/Documents/80/806/8067/8067399_manual.pdf > > Cheers, Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 3/03/2013 1:56 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Where did you buy it? > | 29883|29872|2013-03-03 18:39:51|brentswain38|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|I wonder if spraying wet sandblasted surfaces with a baking soda solution may delay flash rusting long enough to get a primer on, preferably moisture cured urethane. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > The "wet soda" that we used comes out of a dry hose and has a small water line running beside that sprays a cone or curtain of water around the blast site, at low pressure, as a shield strictly for dust control. The glass blaster that i linked appears to let the water enter the pressure pot to carry the glass down the line at HP. All seem good methods, but the glass seems like the best, if works as advertised because low dust, proper etching, low cost media(a little more than sand at $10/50#), but harder surrounding cleanup than ice or water. The dry ice probably is best, but if like other dry ice i've used, somewhat expensive. Would be awesome in an engine room, or enclosed space! rj > > --- On Sun, 3/3/13, wild_explorer wrote: > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as rust inhibitorsimer on preferabkly a moisture cured urethane. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, March 3, 2013, 11:11 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Looks like dry soda blasting equipment is different than the rest of blasting equipment. Regular blasting equipment uses "gravity feed" media introduced to the air or water stream (media is sucked in just before nozzle, which allows to use different blasting media) and this mixture goes into the nozzle. > > > > Dry soda equipment uses blasting media pushed directly to the nozzle from the tank through main hose by compressed air (which pumped into blast media tank). So, dry soda blasting equipment cannot be used for other blasting media. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > > > > > Good dry soda blasting video from a what appears to be a medium sized machine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRLBECBiFQQ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29884|29872|2013-03-03 19:01:40|wild_explorer|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|As you describe it, it is just modified dry soda blaster. Does it make work that you are blasting wet? I can see the benefit of using a cone made from low pressure water as dust control, but I have hard time to understand how to keep blasting area dry.... Soda is more expensive media - about $40-50 for 50Lbs bag. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > The "wet soda" that we used comes out of a dry hose and has a small water line running beside that sprays a cone or curtain of water around the blast site, at low pressure, as a shield strictly for dust control. The glass blaster that i linked appears to let the water enter the pressure pot to carry the glass down the line at HP. All seem good methods, but the glass seems like the best, if works as advertised because low dust, proper etching, low cost media(a little more than sand at $10/50#), but harder surrounding cleanup than ice or water. The dry ice probably is best, but if like other dry ice i've used, somewhat expensive. Would be awesome in an engine room, or enclosed space! rj > | 29885|29872|2013-03-03 19:14:06|wild_explorer|Primers for poorly prepaired steel (Re: Glass Blasting)|This is another one for non-blasted or poorly prepared steel: http://www.tnemec.com/resources/product/pds/394.pdf I saw steel painted with it without any blasting preparation (just degreasing). Original surface was factory smooth. After painting, it had thick rough surface similar to wheelabrited steel. It is pricy as all good paints - about $100/Gal or so. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Blast profile is important. You can also do ultra high pressure > blasting. It is very expensive equipment, usually with licensed > operators since it can be dangerous at about 35,000 psi. It will strip > everything using no blast media at all. If the steel was previously > blasted, the profile will still be there under the paint so this is > acceptable. On new work, with clean rolled steel and mill scale, I would > go with sandblasting if I couldn't get the steel wheel abraded. > > There are several paints developed for water blasted or poorly prepared > steel. If I was water blasting, I would use one of these. You don't need > much since it is thin and really wicks in to the steel. Really good stuff. > > http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/sealer_PDS_AI.pdf > > http://www.corrosioncoatings.com/catalog/pdf/Carboline/Rustbond-FC.pdf > > Paul | 29886|29847|2013-03-03 19:32:49|wild_explorer|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|It looks like, it is not hard DIY project. Just need to have carbide/tungsten nozzle for "abrasive blasting". Another thing - you need to have the source of water for pressure washer if city water is not available. But it could be made from big barrel (as water vessel) & air compressor connected to the top of the barrel (to deliver water with 30-100psi to pressure washer). P.S. But price for DIY, could be close to whole assembly from the store that the link was given to... ;( --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Princes Auto has just opened a store near Victoria ( Langford) with as much stock as Winnipeg, but I didn't see it in their catalogue. Hope they can still get one. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > This is the one I have.....I have only used it a bit on small items with > > a 5 hp water blaster. I found any moisture getting in to the sand will > > clog it up and stop it from being sucked up the sand hose. Keeping the > > sand dry on a big job would be very difficult. It was very slow compared > > to a large commercial sand blaster but what can you expect for $100. > > > > http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/8067399/Components/Wet-Sandblast-Kit > > > > http://www.princessauto.com/hlr-system/Documents/80/806/8067/8067399_manual.pdf > > > > Cheers, Paul | 29887|29847|2013-03-04 00:02:38|Darren Bos|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|Brent and Robert A week after someone else on Origamiboats had recommended wet sandblasting, the Princess Auto flyer came to the house and they were on sale for $75, so I figured it was worth a try. The version I have is here http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/8067399/Components/Wet-Sandblast-Kit .Princess Auto shows them Not In Stock online, but there seems to be only a few manufacturers, and the one from Norther Tool etc. looks identical. I'm pretty impressed with it, but don't have a dry sandblaster on hand to give it a head to head comparison. However, the results seem similar to the results I've had the few times I've used a dry sandblaster in the past. The biggest difference is that wet blasting is tremendously more pleasant than dry sandblasting. There is no cloud of dust and grime . The sand and stripped material are pretty easy to contain, and I've even had good luck re-using the blasting media. I've run plain sand and crushed glass through it and both seem to work well. The instructions say to use it with dry sand and the pickup works well as long as you keep the sand dry (keep your sand in a container with a lid). I wondered if it might be possible to use a wet slurry as well and this also works. You put a second water hose in you sand bucket and keep it at a trickle just to keep the sand fluidized. This seems to reduce the force of the blast, especially if you are using fine blasting media, but the result is still pretty good. I haven't done anything larger than a 50 gallon drum. On the drums I calculated the cleaning rate to be between 120 and 150 SqFt/Hr. You do need a high volume (4gpm) pressure washer or the attachment just doesn't work. Also, you have two hoses that you have to mind, the sand pickup hose goes right to the end of the pressure washer wand. The hose that came with my sand pickup is fairly short and stiff enough to behave like a poorly trained snake. So, when it comes time to do something larger, like a boat, the hose will need to be upgraded. I also get the impression that I'm using more sand per sq.ft cleaned than I remember from dry blasting, but like I said I don't have a dry blaster on hand to make a direct comparison. Here's link to a youtube video that shows a blaster that looks like the one I have and removes material at about the same rate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmw66s8B5sk I think Brent is right being concerned about rust. I've been able to keep flash rust at bay with by toweling things off and getting them dry quickly. Apparently, you can also get a product called Rust Ban that you can add to the pressure washer stream that will prevent flash rust up to a week. I haven't tried it yet. I picked up the blasting attachment for $75 and fixed up a $200 11HP Craigslist pressure washer. So it has been a pretty cheap way to get a decent sand blaster. Darren At 04:56 PM 02/03/2013, you wrote: > > >Where did you buy it? > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > I've been playing around with one of the > > sandblasting attachments that goes on a pressure > > washer that someone else here recommended and it > > seems pretty good. I haven't done anything large > > yet, but it combines the advantages of soda > > blasting (less mess, no dust) and sandblasting > > (nice tooth on the surface). You need a larger > > pressure washer (something over 11HP, where the > > common residential unit is only about 5hp), but > > most boatyards have that already for washing the > > hulls as they are pulled out. Seems to use a > > fair bit of sand, but haven't done a head to head > > comparison with a regular sandblaster. A large > > tarp with some burlap bags on the low side to > > filter the water makes it easy to contain most of the mess. > > > > Darren > > > > > > At 11:01 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >The right blast profile using the right grit is very important for > > >proper paint adhesion. I had the bottom of my boat blasted about a year > > >ago. The guy doing it could have used soda since he commonly did soda > > >blasting as well but said that silica sand of the right grit is still > > >the first choice. > > > > > >All of the paint came off the bottom of my boat in only 3 or 4 hours. > > >This was multiple coats of epoxy and anti-fouling. A large nozzle with > > >lots of air and sharp silica sand makes quick work of it but it hard to > > >think of anything more dusty and dirty. > > > > > >Paul > > > > > > >`•.¸¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸>Â>¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸. > > > > > >`•.¸¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸>Â>¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸. >…. > > >br> > > >On 1/03/2013 7:22 a.m., Robert Jones wrote: > > > > > > > > The way the one i used worked was with a rented high volume air > > > > compressor that attatched to the feeder on the soda unit. The water is > > > > supplied by ordinary garden hose and used only as a cone around the > > > > blasting area to eliminate dust as the soda blasted. That way, with a > > > > small amount of water, the blasted materal falls directly on the > > > > ground. My experience was when i trained for federal lead abatement > > > > licensure. They had one to teach us an environmentally friendly way to > > > > blast bridges(containment and area and water recycling under bridge) > > > > or water tanks and such. We took a car with perfectly good paint and > > > > in 10 minutes we stripped half to shiny metal while never etching > > > > glass, or taking chrome off. Pretty slick. The thing gets the metal so > > > > slick(flat) that they recommended rough sanding prior to repainting so > > > > the paint would adhere. Since, i have met one body shop that used this > > > > technique to repaint antique cars without > having to take window rubber or > > > > glass out, since it is expensive and sometimes impossible to replace > > > > those items. He was sold on it. Other than that one day, i have never > > > > used it because i have a couple of traditional sand blasting units. > > > > Much slower and nastier but paid for! robert > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29888|29888|2013-03-04 00:47:37|ka0tp|Steel Sailboat on Doomsday Preppers show on NGC Tuesday|Anyone who watches the Doomsday Preppers TV show on the National Geographic channel, should check out Tuesdays show. _http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/doomsday-preppers/videos/bunk er-boat/?videoDetect=t%252Cf_ (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/doomsday-preppers/videos/bunker-boat/?videoDetect=t%2Cf) Steel Sailboat (motorsailer) is featured from here in the Portland area. Looks like it is based a few miles from Wild_explorer's build site. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29889|29872|2013-03-04 01:45:37|wild_explorer|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|May be mixing sand with baking soda for wet sandblasting will work? More likely it is need to experiment how much soda to add to sand. But it would be cheaper than to use baking soda alone as blasting media. Then power wash with water/TSP mix (if power washer has built-in tank for additives). On hot day steel drys very fast. Possibly, baking soda & TSP may give enough time/protection to put primer on. With wet sandblasting, it is possible to do it by blasting not whole boat, but "by areas" which could be blasted and primed in one day. I wonder how many hours that cheap "wet sandblasting kit" will last? Darren, could you try to mix sand and baking soda and see how long will it take for flash rust to show up on steel after blasting? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I wonder if spraying wet sandblasted surfaces with a baking soda solution may delay flash rusting long enough to get a primer on, preferably moisture cured urethane. > | 29890|29888|2013-03-04 01:58:14|wild_explorer|Re: Steel Sailboat on Doomsday Preppers show on NGC Tuesday|Looks like it is only 90 tons boat. About 70-75ft??? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > Anyone who watches the Doomsday Preppers TV show on the National Geographic > channel, should check out Tuesdays show. > > _http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/doomsday-preppers/videos/bunk > er-boat/?videoDetect=t%252Cf_ > (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/doomsday-preppers/videos/bunker-boat/?videoDetect=t%2Cf) > > Steel Sailboat (motorsailer) is featured from here in the Portland area. > Looks like it is based a few miles from Wild_explorer's build site. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29891|29864|2013-03-04 06:38:50|boatwayupnorth|Re: A very serious distraction to boatbuilding!|"... bloody hell, it's by far the most completely awesome machine I've ever had! I just love it! Can't stop riding it! :-)" Enjoy! But in another month or so I expect you to be back at boatbuilding! A week without new pictures from your blogg is a week without meaning ... Cheers Walter| 29892|29862|2013-03-04 07:52:38|Robert Jones|Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets|Darren, i sure like the price and seems effective enough, especially for small or medium projects, or even for a boat if your not pressed for time and you pickle.treat as you go. If you get a pickling solution(antirust), make sure that it is made to work with and enhance your selected primer. Thanks for sharing. robert --- On Sun, 3/3/13, Darren Bos wrote: From: Darren Bos Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Problems for blasting 1/8" steel plates/sheets To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 3, 2013, 10:02 PM   Brent and Robert A week after someone else on Origamiboats had recommended wet sandblasting, the Princess Auto flyer came to the house and they were on sale for $75, so I figured it was worth a try. The version I have is here http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/8067399/Components/Wet-Sandblast-Kit .Princess Auto shows them Not In Stock online, but there seems to be only a few manufacturers, and the one from Norther Tool etc. looks identical. I'm pretty impressed with it, but don't have a dry sandblaster on hand to give it a head to head comparison. However, the results seem similar to the results I've had the few times I've used a dry sandblaster in the past. The biggest difference is that wet blasting is tremendously more pleasant than dry sandblasting. There is no cloud of dust and grime . The sand and stripped material are pretty easy to contain, and I've even had good luck re-using the blasting media. I've run plain sand and crushed glass through it and both seem to work well. The instructions say to use it with dry sand and the pickup works well as long as you keep the sand dry (keep your sand in a container with a lid). I wondered if it might be possible to use a wet slurry as well and this also works. You put a second water hose in you sand bucket and keep it at a trickle just to keep the sand fluidized. This seems to reduce the force of the blast, especially if you are using fine blasting media, but the result is still pretty good. I haven't done anything larger than a 50 gallon drum. On the drums I calculated the cleaning rate to be between 120 and 150 SqFt/Hr. You do need a high volume (4gpm) pressure washer or the attachment just doesn't work. Also, you have two hoses that you have to mind, the sand pickup hose goes right to the end of the pressure washer wand. The hose that came with my sand pickup is fairly short and stiff enough to behave like a poorly trained snake. So, when it comes time to do something larger, like a boat, the hose will need to be upgraded. I also get the impression that I'm using more sand per sq.ft cleaned than I remember from dry blasting, but like I said I don't have a dry blaster on hand to make a direct comparison. Here's link to a youtube video that shows a blaster that looks like the one I have and removes material at about the same rate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmw66s8B5sk I think Brent is right being concerned about rust. I've been able to keep flash rust at bay with by toweling things off and getting them dry quickly. Apparently, you can also get a product called Rust Ban that you can add to the pressure washer stream that will prevent flash rust up to a week. I haven't tried it yet. I picked up the blasting attachment for $75 and fixed up a $200 11HP Craigslist pressure washer. So it has been a pretty cheap way to get a decent sand blaster. Darren At 04:56 PM 02/03/2013, you wrote: > > >Where did you buy it? > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > I've been playing around with one of the > > sandblasting attachments that goes on a pressure > > washer that someone else here recommended and it > > seems pretty good. I haven't done anything large > > yet, but it combines the advantages of soda > > blasting (less mess, no dust) and sandblasting > > (nice tooth on the surface). You need a larger > > pressure washer (something over 11HP, where the > > common residential unit is only about 5hp), but > > most boatyards have that already for washing the > > hulls as they are pulled out. Seems to use a > > fair bit of sand, but haven't done a head to head > > comparison with a regular sandblaster. A large > > tarp with some burlap bags on the low side to > > filter the water makes it easy to contain most of the mess. > > > > Darren > > > > > > At 11:01 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >The right blast profile using the right grit is very important for > > >proper paint adhesion. I had the bottom of my boat blasted about a year > > >ago. The guy doing it could have used soda since he commonly did soda > > >blasting as well but said that silica sand of the right grit is still > > >the first choice. > > > > > >All of the paint came off the bottom of my boat in only 3 or 4 hours. > > >This was multiple coats of epoxy and anti-fouling. A large nozzle with > > >lots of air and sharp silica sand makes quick work of it but it hard to > > >think of anything more dusty and dirty. > > > > > >Paul > > > > > > >`•.¸¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸>Â>¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸. > > > > > >`•.¸¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸>Â>¸.•Â´Â¯`•.¸. >…. > > >br> > > >On 1/03/2013 7:22 a.m., Robert Jones wrote: > > > > > > > > The way the one i used worked was with a rented high volume air > > > > compressor that attatched to the feeder on the soda unit. The water is > > > > supplied by ordinary garden hose and used only as a cone around the > > > > blasting area to eliminate dust as the soda blasted. That way, with a > > > > small amount of water, the blasted materal falls directly on the > > > > ground. My experience was when i trained for federal lead abatement > > > > licensure. They had one to teach us an environmentally friendly way to > > > > blast bridges(containment and area and water recycling under bridge) > > > > or water tanks and such. We took a car with perfectly good paint and > > > > in 10 minutes we stripped half to shiny metal while never etching > > > > glass, or taking chrome off. Pretty slick. The thing gets the metal so > > > > slick(flat) that they recommended rough sanding prior to repainting so > > > > the paint would adhere. Since, i have met one body shop that used this > > > > technique to repaint antique cars without > having to take window rubber or > > > > glass out, since it is expensive and sometimes impossible to replace > > > > those items. He was sold on it. Other than that one day, i have never > > > > used it because i have a couple of traditional sand blasting units. > > > > Much slower and nastier but paid for! robert > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29893|29888|2013-03-04 08:09:09|Robert Jones|Re: Steel Sailboat on Doomsday Preppers show on NGC Tuesday|Would love to meet Captain Bill. He might seriously be on to something --- On Sun, 3/3/13, TDPOPP@... wrote: From: TDPOPP@... Subject: [origamiboats] Steel Sailboat on Doomsday Preppers show on NGC Tuesday To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 3, 2013, 10:47 PM   Anyone who watches the Doomsday Preppers TV show on the National Geographic channel, should check out Tuesdays show. _http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/doomsday-preppers/videos/bunk er-boat/?videoDetect=t%252Cf_ (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/doomsday-preppers/videos/bunker-boat/?videoDetect=t%2Cf) Steel Sailboat (motorsailer) is featured from here in the Portland area. Looks like it is based a few miles from Wild_explorer's build site. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29894|29888|2013-03-04 08:26:42|Robert Jones|55 Footer in St. Thomas for sale, similar to doomsday boat!|I am looking into a boat in St. Thomas that is similar to the doomsday boat.  It is 55 x15. The boat got demasted and the owners sold to boat yard after letting sit for 5 years. The boatyard manager bought it and has been running it for a year.  have contracted a surveyor to do a walk/crawl through to take more pix and look at internal rust issue. If it checks out, i will fly down and look.  Does anyone know anything about this boat? It is a Canadian built but and certified but that is all i know. The owner is venezualan/american and very hard to understand. Health issues preclude my starting from scratch so i've got to have a platform. Thanks for any comment, pro or con!  http://virgin.craigslist.org/boa/3543938906.html   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29895|29872|2013-03-04 09:06:20|Doug Jackson|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|Might call your paint supplier and ask about TSP or other additives first.   The one tech I spoke with said not to use any additive, but to simply thin the 1st coat with Xylene.   "Proprietary inhibitors can be added to the blast water but these are not recommended by International  Protective Coatings. The use of a moisture tolerant primer, which can be applied to wet blasted steel  while it is still damp, may be considered."  http://www.international-pc.com/resource-centre/documents/surface-preparation.pdf "Some wet abrasive processes use inhibitors in the water  to prevent rusting of the cleaned surface. It is important to  Surface Preparation for Coating eightestablish whether any remaining traces of such inhibitors  will be compatible with the paint coating to be applied  subsequently. Generally, where inhibitors are not used, any surface rusting after wet abrasive blasting is usually removed by final light dry blast cleaning."  http://resource.npl.co.uk/docs/science_technology/materials/life_management_of_materials/publications/online_guides/pdf/surface_coating.pdf Best of Luck   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 12:45 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as rust inhibitors?   May be mixing sand with baking soda for wet sandblasting will work? More likely it is need to experiment how much soda to add to sand. But it would be cheaper than to use baking soda alone as blasting media. Then power wash with water/TSP mix (if power washer has built-in tank for additives). On hot day steel drys very fast. Possibly, baking soda & TSP may give enough time/protection to put primer on. With wet sandblasting, it is possible to do it by blasting not whole boat, but "by areas" which could be blasted and primed in one day. I wonder how many hours that cheap "wet sandblasting kit" will last? Darren, could you try to mix sand and baking soda and see how long will it take for flash rust to show up on steel after blasting? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I wonder if spraying wet sandblasted surfaces with a baking soda solution may delay flash rusting long enough to get a primer on, preferably moisture cured urethane. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29896|29896|2013-03-04 12:24:30|bty568635|Wylo 2, no anodes|I was intrigued to find that Nick Skeates' Wylo 2 has no anodes, and apparently a mild steel prop and shaft. I've been trying to find out more about this, and have tried to join the yahoo group. Still waiting to hear back from the moderator. Does anyone (Thierry?) know if this group is still running okay? Is the moderator off grid somewhere?| 29897|29896|2013-03-04 15:26:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Wylo 2, no anodes|I seem to recall somebody complaining about the site being down with no response a year or two ago.... FWIW, I have never seen a boat with a mild steel prop. They must be hard to find...or maybe home made. >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 5/03/2013 6:24 a.m., bty568635 wrote: > > I was intrigued to find that Nick Skeates' Wylo 2 has no anodes, and > apparently a mild steel prop and shaft. I've been trying to find out > more about this, and have tried to join the yahoo group. Still waiting > to hear back from the moderator. > > Does anyone (Thierry?) know if this group is still running okay? Is > the moderator off grid somewhere? > > | 29898|29872|2013-03-04 15:31:57|Paul Wilson|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|Personally, I wouldn't use any additive or pickling solution unless the paint manufacturer said it was OK. The new paints are bloody good. It is amazing what they will tolerate and very thin rust bloom (no scale) may actually be totally OK while the chemically treated surface may not. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. | 29899|29896|2013-03-04 15:39:11|martin demers|Re: Wylo 2, no anodes|I am member of the Wylo group, sometimes there are no messages for a week or two. Martin. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:25:27 +1300 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wylo 2, no anodes > > I seem to recall somebody complaining about the site being down with no > response a year or two ago.... > > FWIW, I have never seen a boat with a mild steel prop. They must be hard > to find...or maybe home made. > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. >�. > > On 5/03/2013 6:24 a.m., bty568635 wrote: > > > > I was intrigued to find that Nick Skeates' Wylo 2 has no anodes, and > > apparently a mild steel prop and shaft. I've been trying to find out > > more about this, and have tried to join the yahoo group. Still waiting > > to hear back from the moderator. > > > > Does anyone (Thierry?) know if this group is still running okay? Is > > the moderator off grid somewhere? > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29900|29872|2013-03-04 17:36:38|Darren Bos|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|Wild, I think Doug and Paul are right to be careful about paint compatibility. However, since it was and easy experiment I tried some of the rust flash solutions discussed. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/776921909/pic/list The picture has two controls which were left wet after pressure washing (the first one was deeply pitted to begin with) and air dried in the sun when the outside temp. was 12C. The next coupon was wet blasted and then dried with a towel and left with the other samples. All the treated samples were treated for 15 minutes. The first was left in a TSP soution for 15 min and then left wet to air dry, the second TSP treated coupon was treated for 15 min, then rinsed thoroughly with water and then allowed to air dry, the baking soda coupon spent 15 min in a baking soda solution and then was allowed to air dry and the Naval Jelly sample was treated for 15min then rinsed thoroughly and allowed to air dry. Yahoo downsized the picture, but you can still see that best samples are the one that was towelled dry and the one treated with TSP and then rinsed thoroughly with water. I'll leave the samples under the overhang of my garage where they will get dew, but not rain, to see how the rust progresses. However, it looks like just towelling the surface off is a good way to go. You could probably also rig something like a squeegee on rollers with compressed air to dry the surface quickly. Darren At 10:45 PM 03/03/2013, you wrote: > > >May be mixing sand with baking soda for wet >sandblasting will work? More likely it is need >to experiment how much soda to add to sand. But >it would be cheaper than to use baking soda alone as blasting media. > >Then power wash with water/TSP mix (if power >washer has built-in tank for additives). > >On hot day steel drys very fast. Possibly, >baking soda & TSP may give enough time/protection to put primer on. > >With wet sandblasting, it is possible to do it >by blasting not whole boat, but "by areas" which >could be blasted and primed in one day. > >I wonder how many hours that cheap "wet sandblasting kit" will last? > >Darren, could you try to mix sand and baking >soda and see how long will it take for flash >rust to show up on steel after blasting? > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >"brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I wonder if spraying wet sandblasted surfaces > with a baking soda solution may delay flash > rusting long enough to get a primer on, preferably moisture cured urethane. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29901|29901|2013-03-04 19:16:32|Gary H. Lucas|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as |It doesn’t surprise me that baking soda inhibits rusting. Rusting is greatly increased as pH increases, and stops with a high pH. We use high pH cleaning solutions to remove organic foulants on membranes. We us low pH solutions to remove metals and crystalline contaminants. We tried ductile iron pumps in our membrane systems and cleaning with high pH cleaners followed by a low pH cleaner REALLY accelerates corrosion! The pumps wore out in a few months, as opposed to running for 10 years or more. Gary H. Lucas From: Darren Bos Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 5:36 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as rust inhibitors? Wild, I think Doug and Paul are right to be careful about paint compatibility. However, since it was and easy experiment I tried some of the rust flash solutions discussed. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/776921909/pic/list The picture has two controls which were left wet after pressure washing (the first one was deeply pitted to begin with) and air dried in the sun when the outside temp. was 12C. The next coupon was wet blasted and then dried with a towel and left with the other samples. All the treated samples were treated for 15 minutes. The first was left in a TSP soution for 15 min and then left wet to air dry, the second TSP treated coupon was treated for 15 min, then rinsed thoroughly with water and then allowed to air dry, the baking soda coupon spent 15 min in a baking soda solution and then was allowed to air dry and the Naval Jelly sample was treated for 15min then rinsed thoroughly and allowed to air dry. Yahoo downsized the picture, but you can still see that best samples are the one that was towelled dry and the one treated with TSP and then rinsed thoroughly with water. I'll leave the samples under the overhang of my garage where they will get dew, but not rain, to see how the rust progresses. However, it looks like just towelling the surface off is a good way to go. You could probably also rig something like a squeegee on rollers with compressed air to dry the surface quickly. Darren At 10:45 PM 03/03/2013, you wrote: > > >May be mixing sand with baking soda for wet >sandblasting will work? More likely it is need >to experiment how much soda to add to sand. But >it would be cheaper than to use baking soda alone as blasting media. > >Then power wash with water/TSP mix (if power >washer has built-in tank for additives). > >On hot day steel drys very fast. Possibly, >baking soda & TSP may give enough time/protection to put primer on. > >With wet sandblasting, it is possible to do it >by blasting not whole boat, but "by areas" which >could be blasted and primed in one day. > >I wonder how many hours that cheap "wet sandblasting kit" will last? > >Darren, could you try to mix sand and baking >soda and see how long will it take for flash >rust to show up on steel after blasting? > >--- In >mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, >"brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I wonder if spraying wet sandblasted surfaces > with a baking soda solution may delay flash > rusting long enough to get a primer on, preferably moisture cured urethane. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29902|29872|2013-03-04 19:50:47|Robert Jones|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|Always read directions, "rinse, lather, repeat, rinse, lather, repeat......" --- On Mon, 3/4/13, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as rust inhibitors? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 4, 2013, 1:30 PM   Personally, I wouldn't use any additive or pickling solution unless the paint manufacturer said it was OK. The new paints are bloody good. It is amazing what they will tolerate and very thin rust bloom (no scale) may actually be totally OK while the chemically treated surface may not. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29903|29864|2013-03-04 20:31:31|Kim|Re: A very serious distraction to boatbuilding!|Ha! Thanks Walter! :-) Actually, we've had one of the wettest summers for ages around here (http://tinyurl.com/Rainy-Brisbane). It seems like a long time since we had a dry weekend. So, bike or no bike, it's been hard to get much work done of the boat. Hopefully the wet weather will stop soon, and I'll be able to get back into boatbuilding! September is, by far, our driest month. Which fits in nicely, as I'll be ready for sandblasting and painting then. Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction photos: http://tinyurl.com/Kims-Yacht ______________________________________________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "boatwayupnorth" wrote: > > "... bloody hell, it's by far the most completely awesome machine I've ever had! > I just love it! Can't stop riding it! :-)" > > Enjoy! But in another month or so I expect you to be back at boatbuilding! A week without new pictures from your blogg is a week without meaning ... > Cheers > Walter | 29904|29872|2013-03-05 00:28:15|wild_explorer|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|Thanks Darren for conducting this experiment. It gives something to think about. Please, keep us updated how rust will progress on the samples (1 or 2 weeks?). Dough and Paul, Thanks for providing links to the recommended surface preparations and paints' PDS. It brings discussion on professional level. I agree, it is better to follow manufacturers' recommendations. I was looking for some "short term" DIY solution - to clean area of the metal before welding and to avoid flash rust for several days. Using touch up primer works, but getting expensive. I have some rust in some places - it was raining for couples of month. Power brushing is good, but grinder will not fit in some areas (inside the hull). It looks like, If treated with TSP or soda, it may need secondary (fast) blasting to remove treatment. But it would be more pleasant to work on clean metal. I may consider making/getting small portable dry soda blaster (just because it will require air only) - to clean small areas. Something like this: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200596685_200596685 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > > I think Doug and Paul are right to be careful > about paint compatibility. However, since it was > and easy experiment I tried some of the rust > flash solutions > discussed. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/776921909/pic/list | 29905|29872|2013-03-05 10:13:22|Darren Bos|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|Wild, I haven't looked into what it costs, but I came across Hold Tight while looking at ways to delay flash rust. They have some test data for some of the coatings that folks here have used on their boats. http://www.holdtight.com/?page_id=84 Darren At 06:42 PM 04/03/2013, you wrote: > > >Thanks Darren for conducting this experiment. It >gives something to think about. Please, keep us >updated how rust will progress on the samples (1 or 2 weeks?). > >Dough and Paul, Thanks for providing links to >the recommended surface preparations and paints' >PDS. It brings discussion on professional level. > >I agree, it is better to follow manufacturers' recommendations. > >I was looking for some "short term" DIY solution >- to clean area of the metal before welding and >to avoid flash rust for several days. Using >touch up primer works, but getting expensive. I >have some rust in some places - it was raining >for couples of month. Power brushing is good, >but grinder will not fit in some areas (inside >the hull). It looks like, If treated with TSP or >soda, it may need secondary (fast) blasting to >remove treatment. But it would be more pleasant to work on clean metal. > >I may consider making/getting small portable dry >soda blaster (just because it will require air only) - to clean small areas. > >Something like this: >http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200596685_200596685 > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Wild, > > > > I think Doug and Paul are right to be careful > > about paint compatibility. However, since it was > > and easy experiment I tried some of the rust > > flash solutions > > discussed. > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/776921909/pic/list > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29906|29901|2013-03-05 19:02:32|brentswain38|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as |Big ships cement wash their rusty water tanks. Anyone who has tried to get hardened cement off a rusty shovel knows how well it sticks. The cement stops corrosion for years ,as it is alkaline for a long time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > It doesn’t surprise me that baking soda inhibits rusting. Rusting is greatly increased as pH increases, and stops with a high pH. We use high pH cleaning solutions to remove organic foulants on membranes. We us low pH solutions to remove metals and crystalline contaminants. We tried ductile iron pumps in our membrane systems and cleaning with high pH cleaners followed by a low pH cleaner REALLY accelerates corrosion! The pumps wore out in a few months, as opposed to running for 10 years or more. > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: Darren Bos > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 5:36 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as rust inhibitors? > > > Wild, > > I think Doug and Paul are right to be careful > about paint compatibility. However, since it was > and easy experiment I tried some of the rust > flash solutions > discussed. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/776921909/pic/list > The picture has two controls which were left wet > after pressure washing (the first one was deeply > pitted to begin with) and air dried in the sun > when the outside temp. was 12C. The next coupon > was wet blasted and then dried with a towel and > left with the other samples. All the treated > samples were treated for 15 minutes. The first > was left in a TSP soution for 15 min and then > left wet to air dry, the second TSP treated > coupon was treated for 15 min, then rinsed > thoroughly with water and then allowed to air > dry, the baking soda coupon spent 15 min in a > baking soda solution and then was allowed to air > dry and the Naval Jelly sample was treated for > 15min then rinsed thoroughly and allowed to air dry. > > Yahoo downsized the picture, but you can still > see that best samples are the one that was > towelled dry and the one treated with TSP and > then rinsed thoroughly with water. I'll leave > the samples under the overhang of my garage where > they will get dew, but not rain, to see how the > rust progresses. However, it looks like just > towelling the surface off is a good way to > go. You could probably also rig something like a > squeegee on rollers with compressed air to dry the surface quickly. > > Darren > > At 10:45 PM 03/03/2013, you wrote: > > > > > >May be mixing sand with baking soda for wet > >sandblasting will work? More likely it is need > >to experiment how much soda to add to sand. But > >it would be cheaper than to use baking soda alone as blasting media. > > > >Then power wash with water/TSP mix (if power > >washer has built-in tank for additives). > > > >On hot day steel drys very fast. Possibly, > >baking soda & TSP may give enough time/protection to put primer on. > > > >With wet sandblasting, it is possible to do it > >by blasting not whole boat, but "by areas" which > >could be blasted and primed in one day. > > > >I wonder how many hours that cheap "wet sandblasting kit" will last? > > > >Darren, could you try to mix sand and baking > >soda and see how long will it take for flash > >rust to show up on steel after blasting? > > > >--- In > >mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, > >"brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I wonder if spraying wet sandblasted surfaces > > with a baking soda solution may delay flash > > rusting long enough to get a primer on, preferably moisture cured urethane. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29907|29907|2013-03-05 19:11:49|brentswain38|electric switches|I have been using the same house type rocker switch for a quarter century now, and it has given me zero problems. It is the type of rocker switch you see on the cords of old table lamps. Being a sliding contact rather than a touch contact any corrosion on them gets rubbed off, each time you flick it. They are far more solidly built than the flimsy, yachty style marine switches, and are easy to take apart and deal with should they ever give you any problem. Newer cord switches are much tinier and flimsier, like yachty equipment. You could also put a mini bulb in the output lines to warn you when they have been left on.You could easily make a slotted rack to screw them down onto a panel. I have found no such reliability, and ease of use with any other types of switches I've tried.| 29908|29908|2013-03-05 21:01:32|wild_explorer|Lot of downt time for Yahoo groups lately....|Last several days group was down at least ones a day. Today, when I was typing post, group went down and I everything I typed was lost (for the group). Usually, I save what I type, so I can re-post it. Looks like spammers sending more junk mail to Yahoo mail as well.| 29909|29872|2013-03-05 21:07:07|wild_explorer|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|Online price for that product is around $30-40/Gal. Company claims that the cost per sq.ft of coverage is ~10 cents/sq.ft (already diluted). Claimed time for rust protection is about 48-96 hours. Company make main accent on removing most impurities from metal surface (which may affect painting coat performance). http://www.holdtight.com/?page_id=126 (check downloadable PDS - link at the top of the page http://www.holdtight.com/wp-content/uploads/product_data_sheet.pdf ) http://holdtight102.info/product-data/getting-the-most-out-of-holdtight%C2%AE-102/ I had noticed this product when I was looking at websites offering wet blasting, but on second look I found some info about price. Kind of pricy, but may be worth of it.... Not sure yet. P.S. Areas on my hull where primer failed... Looks like it had poor cleaning (before/during/after wheelabriting). Some areas where I spilled vinegar and did not clean it with water got some lite rust as well. Primer inside the hull looks OK, just need spot cleaning/blasting. I less concerned about outside of the hull - easier to blast. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > > I haven't looked into what it costs, but I came > across Hold Tight while looking at ways to delay > flash rust. They have some test data for some of > the coatings that folks here have used on their > boats. http://www.holdtight.com/?page_id=84 > | 29910|29908|2013-03-06 00:06:15|Darren Bos|Re: Lot of downt time for Yahoo groups lately....|Might be due to the fact that there is a scourge of stolen accounts on Yahoo right now. Lots of compromised accounts due to a new attack and folks who have passwords that are too simple. Darren At 06:01 PM 05/03/2013, you wrote: > > >Last several days group was down at least ones a >day. Today, when I was typing post, group went >down and I everything I typed was lost (for the >group). Usually, I save what I type, so I can re-post it. > >Looks like spammers sending more junk mail to Yahoo mail as well. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29911|29872|2013-03-06 00:19:48|Darren Bos|Re: TSP (TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE), baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as r|Might be worthwhile if it bought you more time, but 48 hours isn't much when you consider towelling or blowing the water off will buy you just about as much time. Their tests were interesting though, they definitely improve the bonding of some coatings, especially Hempel Coal Tar Epoxy. However, even with the Holdtight treatment, the coal tar epoxy doesn't adhere anywhere near as well as epoxy (Polyamide, Amine or Phenolic) applied to dry metal. So you could take the money you would spend on the Hold 'Tight and invest in better epoxy and potentially get a better result when looking at the entire system. Darren At 06:07 PM 05/03/2013, you wrote: > > >Online price for that product is around >$30-40/Gal. Company claims that the cost per >sq.ft of coverage is ~10 cents/sq.ft (already >diluted). Claimed time for rust protection is >about 48-96 hours. Company make main accent on >removing most impurities from metal surface >(which may affect painting coat performance). > >http://www.holdtight.com/?page_id=126 >(check downloadable PDS - link at the top of the >page >http://www.holdtight.com/wp-content/uploads/product_data_sheet.pdf >) > >http://holdtight102.info/product-data/getting-the-most-out-of-holdtight%C2%AE-102/ > >I had noticed this product when I was looking at >websites offering wet blasting, but on second >look I found some info about price. Kind of >pricy, but may be worth of it.... Not sure yet. > >P.S. Areas on my hull where primer failed... >Looks like it had poor cleaning >(before/during/after wheelabriting). Some areas >where I spilled vinegar and did not clean it >with water got some lite rust as well. Primer >inside the hull looks OK, just need spot >cleaning/blasting. I less concerned about >outside of the hull - easier to blast. > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Wild, > > > > I haven't looked into what it costs, but I came > > across Hold Tight while looking at ways to delay > > flash rust. They have some test data for some of > > the coatings that folks here have used on their > > boats. > http://www.holdtight.com/?page_id=84 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29912|29908|2013-03-06 07:49:13|scott|Re: Lot of downt time for Yahoo groups lately....|I'm not sure that it is about the passwords. There has been a vulnerability for a while now where the spammers don't need a password. They inject the spam into the facebook or mobile app links for the account. It's a bug on yahoo's part. Not to say that people aren't hacking passwords also but as a computer tech that fixes this for customers I have really only seen the injection method of spam in the last year with family and customers in relation to yahoo. The fix is to turn off all app links in your yahoo account. You can't use the yahoo mail mobile app either. Do make sure your password is a good one and that no one has inserted a secondary contact email address or phone number that they can use to access your account and change the password with. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Might be due to the fact that there is a scourge > of stolen accounts on Yahoo right now. Lots of > compromised accounts due to a new attack and > folks who have passwords that are too simple. > > Darren > > At 06:01 PM 05/03/2013, you wrote: > > > > > >Last several days group was down at least ones a > >day. Today, when I was typing post, group went > >down and I everything I typed was lost (for the > >group). Usually, I save what I type, so I can re-post it. > > > >Looks like spammers sending more junk mail to Yahoo mail as well. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29913|29908|2013-03-06 11:02:49|Darren Bos|Re: Lot of downt time for Yahoo groups lately....|Thanks Scott, I'd been thrown off by advice on another Yahoo group which suggested changing to more secure passwords was a solution. After your message I did some reading and now understand more than I want to about SQL injection attacks and XSS vulnerabilities. Thanks for tips that help improve security. Darren At 04:49 AM 06/03/2013, you wrote: > > >I'm not sure that it is about the passwords. >There has been a vulnerability for a while now >where the spammers don't need a password. They >inject the spam into the facebook or mobile app >links for the account. It's a bug on yahoo's >part. Not to say that people aren't hacking >passwords also but as a computer tech that fixes >this for customers I have really only seen the >injection method of spam in the last year with >family and customers in relation to yahoo. The >fix is to turn off all app links in your yahoo >account. You can't use the yahoo mail mobile app >either. Do make sure your password is a good one >and that no one has inserted a secondary contact >email address or phone number that they can use >to access your account and change the password with. > >scott > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Might be due to the fact that there is a scourge > > of stolen accounts on Yahoo right now. Lots of > > compromised accounts due to a new attack and > > folks who have passwords that are too simple. > > > > Darren > > > > At 06:01 PM 05/03/2013, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >Last several days group was down at least ones a > > >day. Today, when I was typing post, group went > > >down and I everything I typed was lost (for the > > >group). Usually, I save what I type, so I can re-post it. > > > > > >Looks like spammers sending more junk mail to Yahoo mail as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 29914|29908|2013-03-08 09:19:04|scott|Re: Lot of downt time for Yahoo groups lately....|No worries. :) to be honest until I got infected myself and really took a look at it I thought it was a password issue also . This from a guy that used to be a high end network security analyst. I couldn't figure out how I got hacked and was sending out spam from my yahoo account. I use "VERY GOOD" passwords and security practices like only using https etc.. on browsing. I don't use windows but linux so I have a huge amount of inherent security there. So I was really weirded out by it. I ended up calling on one of my old friends that worked with me in network security back in the day. He stayed in it and works for Dell now and does consulting with the FBI and others around the world on this sort of thing. He was the one that clued me in on what was happening. According to him it has been happening for a long time and yahoo hasn't addressed it. Pretty much don't want to admit there is a problem nor willing to work on it hard. At least at that point that was his opinion. I'm not sure if they have done anything since. In my opinion yahoo is a dying company based on their lack of will or inability to service their products and maintain them. I keep expecting them to shut everything down and all this to go away. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Thanks Scott, I'd been thrown off by advice on > another Yahoo group which suggested changing to > more secure passwords was a solution. After your > message I did some reading and now understand > more than I want to about SQL injection attacks > and XSS vulnerabilities. Thanks for tips that help improve security. > > Darren > > At 04:49 AM 06/03/2013, you wrote: > > > > > >I'm not sure that it is about the passwords. > >There has been a vulnerability for a while now > >where the spammers don't need a password. They > >inject the spam into the facebook or mobile app > >links for the account. It's a bug on yahoo's > >part. Not to say that people aren't hacking > >passwords also but as a computer tech that fixes > >this for customers I have really only seen the > >injection method of spam in the last year with > >family and customers in relation to yahoo. The > >fix is to turn off all app links in your yahoo > >account. You can't use the yahoo mail mobile app > >either. Do make sure your password is a good one > >and that no one has inserted a secondary contact > >email address or phone number that they can use > >to access your account and change the password with. > > > >scott > > > >--- In > >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > > > Might be due to the fact that there is a scourge > > > of stolen accounts on Yahoo right now. Lots of > > > compromised accounts due to a new attack and > > > folks who have passwords that are too simple. > > > > > > Darren > > > > > > At 06:01 PM 05/03/2013, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >Last several days group was down at least ones a > > > >day. Today, when I was typing post, group went > > > >down and I everything I typed was lost (for the > > > >group). Usually, I save what I type, so I can re-post it. > > > > > > > >Looks like spammers sending more junk mail to Yahoo mail as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > | 29915|29915|2013-03-08 13:02:50|bty568635|Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass|Been thinking about heating (again...) I keep coming up with the issue of the low cost of firewood vs. the fact that burning anything while you sleep is not a good idea. This is possibly an daft idea, but has anyone tried running a heating coil around a woodburner/rocket stove that feeds in and out of a removable underfloor diesel tank? If all faces of the tank except the top were insulated, you could build up enough heat for the whole night. The insulation would need to be stuck to the tank, I guess, to leave a drain gap in and around the bilges. It would be possible to do this using water tanks, I suppose, but then you have steam and expansion issues, and that 'boiled water' taste. Does diesel mind being heated and cooled? Rocket stoves seem to be efficient and can use twigs that would burn without giving up much heat to a normal sized wood stove. You could maybe carry less firewood then, of lower quality. Height of chimney seems to be crucial, though.| 29916|29915|2013-03-08 14:31:47|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass|Did You have a look to this sort of double-use oven? http://www.refleks-olieovne.dk/default.asp?pagenumber=1561 Burning the diesel while heating the water by coil instead, though. The Refleks people are delivering very reliable ovens to mariners for half a century now, and they have different systems to enable semiautomated burning round the clock, and some of them come with an extra burning-air-supply from outside to save the oxygen inside the cabin. Refleks is said to be very low-tech, so You have sparse systems prone to fail. They have different sorts of ovens, some of which are insulated to be built into a locker or cabinetry as a source of warmth for central heating only. Why not stick to the water as heated medium? Diesel tends to produce particularly smelling, probably harmful and definitely combustible gas when heated. If You want to burn wood instead, water still is by far the safer medium to gain and transport heat with. (while I don't know nothing about woodstoves aboard) cheers G_B Am 08.03.2013 um 19:02 schrieb bty568635: > Been thinking about heating (again...) I keep coming up with the issue of the low cost of firewood vs. the fact that burning anything while you sleep is not a good idea. > > This is possibly an daft idea, but has anyone tried running a heating coil around a woodburner/rocket stove that feeds in and out of a removable underfloor diesel tank? If all faces of the tank except the top were insulated, you could build up enough heat for the whole night. > > The insulation would need to be stuck to the tank, I guess, to leave a drain gap in and around the bilges. It would be possible to do this using water tanks, I suppose, but then you have steam and expansion issues, and that 'boiled water' taste. Does diesel mind being heated and cooled? > > Rocket stoves seem to be efficient and can use twigs that would burn without giving up much heat to a normal sized wood stove. You could maybe carry less firewood then, of lower quality. Height of chimney seems to be crucial, though. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29917|29915|2013-03-08 15:01:54|bty568635|Re: Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass|I was thinking that the diesel fuel might be less troublesome as a heat 'sink', but from what you've said, its more trouble than water. It's just that the diesel was going to be on board anyway, rather than adding the weight of central heating. Refleks are definitely nice, but I'd still ideally like something that just stores and releases heat when I'm asleep, rather than anything burning while I try to sleep. And driftwood is so much cheaper than diesel... But I wouldnt want diesel fumes either. ________________________________ From: Giuseppe Bergman To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 8 March 2013, 19:31 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass Did You have a look to this sort of double-use oven? http://www.refleks-olieovne.dk/default.asp?pagenumber=1561 Burning the diesel while heating the water by coil instead, though. The Refleks people are delivering very reliable ovens to mariners for half a century now, and they have different systems to enable semiautomated burning round the clock, and some of them come with an extra burning-air-supply from outside to save the oxygen inside the cabin. Refleks is said to be very low-tech, so You have sparse systems prone to fail. They have different sorts of ovens, some of which are insulated to be built into a locker or cabinetry as a source of warmth for central heating only. Why not stick to the water as heated medium? Diesel tends to produce particularly smelling, probably harmful and definitely combustible gas when heated. If You want to burn wood instead, water still is by far the safer medium to gain and transport heat with. (while I don't know nothing about woodstoves aboard) cheers G_B Am 08.03.2013 um 19:02 schrieb bty568635: > Been thinking about heating (again...) I keep coming up with the issue of the low cost of firewood vs. the fact that burning anything while you sleep is not a good idea. > > This is possibly an daft idea, but has anyone tried running a heating coil around a woodburner/rocket stove that feeds in and out of a removable underfloor diesel tank? If all faces of the tank except the top were insulated, you could build up enough heat for the whole night. > > The insulation would need to be stuck to the tank, I guess, to leave a drain gap in and around the bilges. It would be possible to do this using water tanks, I suppose, but then you have steam and expansion issues, and that 'boiled water' taste. Does diesel mind being heated and cooled? > > Rocket stoves seem to be efficient and can use twigs that would burn without giving up much heat to a normal sized wood stove. You could maybe carry less firewood then, of lower quality. Height of chimney seems to be crucial, though. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29918|29918|2013-03-08 17:01:15|badpirate36|Sailmakers|I would be interested in learning about some local sailmakers in BC and the Pacific Northwest. If you've had any dealings good/bad and so forth Thanx Tom| 29919|29915|2013-03-09 04:10:33|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass|Yep, gotcha. Already got You before, I admit. Diesel isn't the heatsink of choice for obvious reasons, though. What is tried out in modern housing for a heatsink are special salts which take in and store a lot of energy when changing phase from solid to liquid. (While "solid" still means as a sole ... cristals in water turn to smooth molten solutions and freeze back to cristals in water, temperature levels differ dependent to the formulation of the salts ... sounds complcated, but is working already well in some houses of research with the Fraunhofer Institutes and some other University Labs) Housing doesn't have the problem of weight and space, though. Keep it simple ...? With a system like this? Well, not these days, probably in about twenty years but not yet now. Return to what Your initial idea was: using driftwood to heat Your ling space in the cabin. I lived for decades with woodstoves only, did this in light RVs as well as in my flats/houses, one winter also aboard a tiny former barge turned to a floating workshop/liveaboard cruising some canals in Europe, while the real problems weren't with the heating but with insulation and moist on the latter. What is it that turn's You off the idea of just heating as long as You feel cold? You won't have trouble with the supply of the needed solid fuel as far as I understand? The installation of a carbon-monoxide-warner together with an air-supply directly to the burning chamber from outside wouldn't do it for You? Why? An additional little coil would supply plenty of warm water, and the oven itself, with some heavy housing probably, would heat the cabin nicer than a lot of technically complicated stuff full of integrated mechanics prone to failing. Cheers G_B Am 08.03.2013 um 21:01 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > I was thinking that the diesel fuel might be less troublesome as a heat 'sink', but from what you've said, its more trouble than water. It's just that the diesel was going to be on board anyway, rather than adding the weight of central heating. > > Refleks are definitely nice, but I'd still ideally like something that just stores and releases heat when I'm asleep, rather than anything burning while I try to sleep. And driftwood is so much cheaper than diesel... But I wouldnt want diesel fumes either. > > ________________________________ > From: Giuseppe Bergman > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, 8 March 2013, 19:31 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass > > Did You have a look to this sort of double-use oven? > > http://www.refleks-olieovne.dk/default.asp?pagenumber=1561 > > Burning the diesel while heating the water by coil instead, though. > > The Refleks people are delivering very reliable ovens to mariners for half a century now, > and they have different systems to enable semiautomated burning round the clock, > and some of them come with an extra burning-air-supply from outside to save > the oxygen inside the cabin. > > Refleks is said to be very low-tech, so You have sparse systems prone to fail. > > They have different sorts of ovens, some of which are insulated to be built into a locker > or cabinetry as a source of warmth for central heating only. > > Why not stick to the water as heated medium? > > Diesel tends to produce particularly smelling, probably harmful and definitely combustible gas when heated. > > If You want to burn wood instead, water still is by far the safer medium to gain and transport heat with. > > (while I don't know nothing about woodstoves aboard) > > cheers G_B > > Am 08.03.2013 um 19:02 schrieb bty568635: > > > Been thinking about heating (again...) I keep coming up with the issue of the low cost of firewood vs. the fact that burning anything while you sleep is not a good idea. > > > > This is possibly an daft idea, but has anyone tried running a heating coil around a woodburner/rocket stove that feeds in and out of a removable underfloor diesel tank? If all faces of the tank except the top were insulated, you could build up enough heat for the whole night. > > > > The insulation would need to be stuck to the tank, I guess, to leave a drain gap in and around the bilges. It would be possible to do this using water tanks, I suppose, but then you have steam and expansion issues, and that 'boiled water' taste. Does diesel mind being heated and cooled? > > > > Rocket stoves seem to be efficient and can use twigs that would burn without giving up much heat to a normal sized wood stove. You could maybe carry less firewood then, of lower quality. Height of chimney seems to be crucial, though. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29920|29915|2013-03-09 07:38:43|bty568635|Re: Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass|All points taken, Giuseppe. I just thought it would be a nice idea if workable, which it probably isn't. The only objection I have to wood fuel is that I'm not comfortable burning it when unconscious. Maybe an external draught would solve that. And insulation would certainly cut down on condensation, and keep the heat in. I'd still prefer not to have any source of carbon monoxide and flames on board when I'm asleep, though. So, as you said, back to the original idea... or maybe a bladder tank filled with seawater to use as a heat store alongside or at anchor, run off a syphoning coil in the burner. Nope! Too complicated for a small increase in comfort. Back to plan A. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29921|29915|2013-03-09 10:38:21|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass|What I installed aboard a 44'' cruiser-racer some years ago was a special sort of waterheating. Do you know those additional heaters the modern direct injecting diesel cars have built in to enable waterheating despite their high-end efficiency which leads to a lack of "lost" temperature in winter? We combined one of those, an "Ebersp�cher" 5 kW waterheating unit with a watercirculation under the seats/bunks and parts of bulkheads (heads room). Alltogether it was about 45 liters of water in partly insulated tubes with an electric pump (custom), one usual automotive extension bulb in plastic (VW), the heater unit (Ebersp�cher), built in like a normal diesel heating device, outside the cabin-space (was actually built into their gas-locker, what I didn't like, either) with a "normal" dry/insulated exhaust (original Ebersp�cher, yacht edition = stainless) and an extra air-intake-tube to run it on outside air. Regulation was a modified heating regulator Ebersp�cher delivers as an upgrade to change it to a pre-heater, modified "down" to hand-driven thermostate instead of automatic watertemp only. Was all in all material of less than 1300,- � (1650,- $ US), including tubes and fittings and all, and we bought every single part new. Did work well down to zero degrees Celsius, below it would have needed better insulation of the hull (was a sandwich-crp with 5 centimeters of core foam between layers) or otherwise more power. These Ebersp�cher people supply heaters of the same principle ("hydronic") up to about 15 kW or so, for Lorries, Caterpillars, Cranes and so on. And: the 5 kW device used only about 350 to 400 ccm diesel per hour in full roar together with some watts for the burner's inner air vent, an initial heater stick and the waterpump. It regulates down to about 80 to 100 ccm/h when enough warmth is gained, while insulation and sort of build-in matters, of course. Yet another technical device, sure, but maybe a calming nighty-one to combine with Your day-stove. Am 09.03.2013 um 13:38 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > All points taken, Giuseppe. I just thought it would be a nice idea if workable, which it probably isn't. > > The only objection I have to wood fuel is that I'm not comfortable burning it when unconscious. Maybe an external draught would solve that. And insulation would certainly cut down on condensation, and keep the heat in. I'd still prefer not to have any source of carbon monoxide and flames on board when I'm asleep, though. > > So, as you said, back to the original idea... or maybe a bladder tank filled with seawater to use as a heat store alongside or at anchor, run off a syphoning coil in the burner. Nope! Too complicated for a small increase in comfort. Back to plan A. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29922|29922|2013-03-09 11:11:57|inter4905|make a small origami section|Hi Brent, Is it possible to build a small section for a boat, like the bow or the stern using the origami method? Martin| 29923|29915|2013-03-09 12:46:25|bty568635|Re: Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass|That sounds interesting, but maybe a bit elaborate for the sort of boats I'm looking at. I wonder whether a simple pumpless version with solid fuel stove and car radiators would be workable?  I saw something like that on a Spray 36 a few years ago, but the owner hadn't used it, as the boat was still being finished off. It still wouldn't store much heat. When you say 'extension bulb' do you mean an expansion bottle? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29924|29915|2013-03-09 15:37:08|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass|Sorry 'bout the extension bulb .... ;-) expansion bottle, yepp! The hydronic: https://www.google.de/search?q=ebersp%C3%A4cher+hydronic&hl=de&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=goo7Ucn4HsmH4ASM-oHICQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1238&bih=746 The expansion bottle, like in the cooling system of any VW tdi-car: https://www.google.de/search?q=ebersp%C3%A4cher+hydronic&hl=de&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=goo7Ucn4HsmH4ASM-oHICQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1238&bih=746#hl=de&safe=off&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=vw+ausgleichsbeh%C3%A4lter&oq=vw+ausgleichs&gs_l=img.1.0.0i24l2.65016.67989.0.70357.13.8.0.5.5.0.70.478.8.8.0...0.0...1c.1.5.img.R4kA5AiSiZM&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43287494,d.bGE&fp=ceb3839ff3980843&biw=1238&bih=746 The sort of extra pump I put in, here a Webasto-made, with Webasto being the boldest competitor of Ebersp�cher in Europe. There are some very nice, extremly economic new pumps on the market in Europe, hi-tech for off-grid no-energy-houses and on-grid plus-energy-houses, in 12, 24 and 48 Volt DC (48 V being the output of average solar panel systems in off-grid-housing, as far as I know), what could reduce the electrical power supply significantly, but those still are extemely costly and hard to find, compared to those pumps I grabbed one to show from ebay. The boat we built that in had already ample solars, the current needed wasn't an issue. Dimensioning of pumps depends on tubes used (diameter) and required water-rate through the very heater you chose: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Wasserpumpe-Kuehlmittelpumpe-Standheizung-Webasto-12V-NEU-/190624916193 Real hillbilly engeneering. ;-) Still no power-sink, though, I know, but I didn't find a solution for generating or simply storing reasonable amounts of warmth aboard without burning fuels yet, for even the most efficient vacuum solar collection does mandatory need a LOT of stored water (or liquid medium alike) to buffer the warmth; in housing here, neighbouring the alps, usually the used rate for no-extern-energy-solutions with collectors/absorber pumps as the only heating supply is roundabout 25.000 liters buffer to endure cold clear winternights in pretty well-insulated housing of ca 120 m2, tendency still increasing. Not the way to go on a 39'', I'm afraid. Even on the workshop-barge, collecting was only enough for a warm shower in broad daylight, no way to gain enough to heat during the night, not to mention on a sailing yacht with already some m2 of electrical solar panels. Burning of any sorts would stay the way to de-freeze aboard. This is why people go sailing the trades .... And one comment to the car-radiator-warming-air idea: warm water radiator system, pumpless, might fail the one or other moment aboard, for thermosyphoning is sensitive to moving in a swell. And, even worse: air is by far the least suitable medium to transport and distribute warmth effectively. Lots of joules lost this way. Better transport it in water, and warm seats/bunks/surfaces directly with it to create warm, slightly radiating surroundings. Even better: having a big, as heavy as possible built oven radiating warmth from its mass of fireclay. Next to no joules lost with heat radiated off warm surfaces of a heavy buffer. Cheers G_B Am 09.03.2013 um 18:46 schrieb richard.barwell@...: > That sounds interesting, but maybe a bit elaborate for the sort of boats I'm looking at. I wonder whether a simple pumpless version with solid fuel stove and car radiators would be workable? I saw something like that on a Spray 36 a few years ago, but the owner hadn't used it, as the boat was still being finished off. It still wouldn't store much heat. When you say 'extension bulb' do you mean an expansion bottle? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29925|29915|2013-03-09 15:52:22|bty568635|Re: Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass|I hadn't thought of effects of boat movement on thermosyphoning. I think a wood stove and a diesel stove both with an option to draw air from inside or outside the boat is most practical; free fuel when its available, continuous burning of non-free fuel only when needed, minimal chance of back draught and CO in living space.. Or go south, although it's nice not to have to. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29926|29915|2013-03-14 16:37:16|Robert|Re: Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass|Diesel fuel's flash point is 125 degrees F. The vapor is much more flammable than the liquid fuel. A little bit of wood burning in an enclosed stove is very much preferable than turning your home into a fire bomb. Play safe, Bob R. > This is possibly an daft idea, but has anyone tried running a heating coil around a woodburner/rocket stove that feeds in and out of a removable underfloor diesel tank? If all faces of the tank except the top were insulated, you could build up enough heat for the whole night. | 29927|29918|2013-03-14 16:37:31|Pris Sail|Re: Sailmakers|Carol Hasse has an excellent reputation worldwide.  http://www.porttownsendsails.com/ ________________________________ From: badpirate36 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 4:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Sailmakers   I would be interested in learning about some local sailmakers in BC and the Pacific Northwest. If you've had any dealings good/bad and so forth Thanx Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29928|29915|2013-03-14 16:42:45|bty568635|Re: Heating diesel fuel as a thermal mass|Definitely a daft idea then... I didn't realise its flash point was so low. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29929|29929|2013-03-14 16:43:20|brentswain38|Hotmail screwups|Please don't use my hotmail address anymore, They have started blocking email access for anyone who doesn't sign in every few days . I don't always have email access where I cruise for weeks at a time, so hotmail is useless for anyone who doesn't live and remain right next to a computer with email access , 24-7, 365 days a year. Use my yahoo address , same name at yahoo.ca And suggest that anyone else who doesn't want to be ordered to be tied to a computer 24-7 365 days a year, that they abandon hotmail.| 29930|29922|2013-03-14 16:45:25|brentswain38|Re: make a small origami section|Yes , it should be no problem --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Is it possible to build a small section for a boat, like the bow or the stern > using the origami method? > > Martin > | 29931|29929|2013-03-14 16:47:48|brentswain38|Re: Hotmail screwups|If you have sent me any emails to my hotmail address in the last few weeks which I haven't answered, please send them to my yahoo address, as I cant get them at hotmail. Thanks Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Please don't use my hotmail address anymore, They have started blocking email access for anyone who doesn't sign in every few days . I don't always have email access where I cruise for weeks at a time, so hotmail is useless for anyone who doesn't live and remain right next to a computer with email access , 24-7, 365 days a year. Use my yahoo address , same name at yahoo.ca > And suggest that anyone else who doesn't want to be ordered to be tied to a computer 24-7 365 days a year, that they abandon hotmail. > | 29932|29932|2013-03-14 17:16:45|mr_lugnuts_2007|Hempels Polyenamel 55100|Does anyone have any experience with Hempels Poly enamel 55100? It's a 2 part polyurethane rated for marine environments. Is it tricky to apply? Does it bond well w/ coal tar base coats, etc,etc???? More info here: http://www.hempel.com/en/products/hempathane-enamel-55100 Thx.Andy| 29933|29932|2013-03-15 05:55:29|m riley|Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100|their distribution network seems to be industrially oriented cannot find a retail establishment in the us. seems to be a awlgrip knockoff so I imagine it will be about the same. I have had good luck with rustolium industrial line sold only in industrial supply houses also devoe brand. much cheaper. mike| 29934|29932|2013-03-15 09:43:22|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100|Thanks Mike. There is some mention of Hempels in the archives as being about equal in quality to Devoe, but I couldn't find anything specifically about 55100. I bought a bunch of over-stock from an industrial contractor in the U.S. for cheap but so far, I haven't found a supplier in North America. Probably just need to look more. They seem to be based in Spain and South America. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, m riley wrote: > > their distribution network seems to be industrially oriented > cannot find a retail establishment in the us. > seems to be a awlgrip knockoff so I imagine it will be about the same. > I have had good luck with rustolium industrial line sold only in industrial supply houses also devoe brand. much cheaper. > mike > | 29935|29932|2013-03-15 09:51:51|martin demers|Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100|Hempels has offices in Canada To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: mr_lugnuts_2007@... Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:43:21 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100 Thanks Mike. There is some mention of Hempels in the archives as being about equal in quality to Devoe, but I couldn't find anything specifically about 55100. I bought a bunch of over-stock from an industrial contractor in the U.S. for cheap but so far, I haven't found a supplier in North America. Probably just need to look more. They seem to be based in Spain and South America. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, m riley wrote: > > their distribution network seems to be industrially oriented > cannot find a retail establishment in the us. > seems to be a awlgrip knockoff so I imagine it will be about the same. > I have had good luck with rustolium industrial line sold only in industrial supply houses also devoe brand. much cheaper. > mike > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29936|29932|2013-03-15 12:05:56|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100|I found some time to do a better search and they have a presence in the US as well as Canada. You can check out availability using their country locator: http://www.hempel.com/en/about-hempel/contacts?market=united%20states%20of%20america --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Hempels has offices in Canada > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mr_lugnuts_2007@... > Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:43:21 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Mike. There is some mention of Hempels in the archives as being about equal in quality to Devoe, but I couldn't find anything specifically about 55100. I bought a bunch of over-stock from an industrial contractor in the U.S. for cheap but so far, I haven't found a supplier in North America. Probably just need to look more. They seem to be based in Spain and South America. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, m riley wrote: > > > > > > their distribution network seems to be industrially oriented > > > cannot find a retail establishment in the us. > > > seems to be a awlgrip knockoff so I imagine it will be about the same. > > > I have had good luck with rustolium industrial line sold only in industrial supply houses also devoe brand. much cheaper. > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29937|29932|2013-03-15 21:02:15|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100|Hempel has offices in Surrey, BC Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2013-03-15, at 6:54 AM, martin demers wrote: > Hempels has offices in Canada > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mr_lugnuts_2007@... > Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:43:21 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Mike. There is some mention of Hempels in the archives as being about equal in quality to Devoe, but I couldn't find anything specifically about 55100. I bought a bunch of over-stock from an industrial contractor in the U.S. for cheap but so far, I haven't found a supplier in North America. Probably just need to look more. They seem to be based in Spain and South America. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, m riley wrote: > > >> their distribution network seems to be industrially oriented > >> cannot find a retail establishment in the us. > >> seems to be a awlgrip knockoff so I imagine it will be about the same. > >> I have had good luck with rustolium industrial line sold only in industrial supply houses also devoe brand. much cheaper. > >> mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 29938|29938|2013-03-15 23:55:27|wild_explorer|Bending Deck/ForeDeck beams to arc shape|I tried both methods in Brent's book. First of all, hydraulic jack idea does not work well. It might be necessary for heavier flat bar than is used for 36 or 40 footer, but it will be VERY slow process. Sledge hummer technique works much better and faster. And it is simple. Basically, you just create an arc from straight segments anyway (similar how the arc is represented in CAD software, more segments - more accurate representation of the arc). Placing jack at the middle (one point) of flat bar will give you just 2 angled but straight sides (bending in hard direction). Same is with hammering on the middle of the beam. You need more bending points if you want reasonable arc. Making beam with sledge hummer and using 5"-7" segments' marks (where you hammer on the beam) gives reasonably smooth arc. Deck beam is OK with 4 segments (3 bending points). Foredeck beams need more segments. If you draw arc pattern, it is easy to make all beams with equal radius and good precision. Or you can bent longer beam first and use it as a pattern. Long beams tend to twist during forming, but it is simple to straighten it back without tools/hammer (easy bend direction).| 29939|29938|2013-03-16 07:37:14|James Pronk|Re: Bending Deck/ForeDeck beams to arc shape|Hello Wild I have been using a 3lb hammer with a slightly rounded face and a short piece of railway track on its side, works great. I built a big sandblasting pot and I was going to get a 185 cfm compressor. Now I'm thinking I will look at getting a big pressure washer and the wet blasting attachment for for the small stuff and rent a compressor for when I need it for the hull plate. James  --- On Fri, 3/15/13, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Bending Deck/ForeDeck beams to arc shape To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, March 15, 2013, 11:55 PM   I tried both methods in Brent's book. First of all, hydraulic jack idea does not work well. It might be necessary for heavier flat bar than is used for 36 or 40 footer, but it will be VERY slow process. Sledge hummer technique works much better and faster. And it is simple. Basically, you just create an arc from straight segments anyway (similar how the arc is represented in CAD software, more segments - more accurate representation of the arc). Placing jack at the middle (one point) of flat bar will give you just 2 angled but straight sides (bending in hard direction). Same is with hammering on the middle of the beam. You need more bending points if you want reasonable arc. Making beam with sledge hummer and using 5"-7" segments' marks (where you hammer on the beam) gives reasonably smooth arc. Deck beam is OK with 4 segments (3 bending points). Foredeck beams need more segments. If you draw arc pattern, it is easy to make all beams with equal radius and good precision. Or you can bent longer beam first and use it as a pattern. Long beams tend to twist during forming, but it is simple to straighten it back without tools/hammer (easy bend direction). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29940|29938|2013-03-16 13:17:29|wild_explorer|Re: Bending Deck/ForeDeck beams to arc shape|I used 8Lb sledge hammer (I forgot that I have 3Lb hammer). With 8Lb hammer it took 2-8 hits to bend each segment - pretty easy. I used scrap I-beam (laying on its side) for the base - same idea as using channel. I tried to use bending tool with 3 rollers (1 center one moves by screw). It gives nice arc bend, but ends (between center roller and side rollers) will be straight anyway. And it is slow process as well. It looks like it will be more economical for me to send deck's sub-assemblies for wheelabriting and priming instead of making blaster and prime steel by myself. Blaster needs big compressor, and mine can output only about 6cfm@90psi --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hello Wild > I have been using a 3lb hammer with a slightly rounded face and a short piece of railway track on its side, works great. > I built a big sandblasting pot and I was going to get a 185 cfm compressor. Now I'm thinking I will look at getting a big pressure washer and the wet blasting attachment for for the small stuff and rent a compressor for when I need it for the hull plate. > James  | 29941|29941|2013-03-17 14:48:58|wild_explorer|Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|I am running into interesting future decision "Where to register a boat?" It looks simple at first, but getting more and more complicated when you start digging it up. There are several reasons for that. Let's imagine this scenario: - boat is only the place you claim as your main residence - you need to save on taxes and expenses (income taxes, registration, insurance, etc) - it should be LEGAL (means - you can use current differences in Fed& States laws and US Constitution to your advantage) - there is possibility traveling trough states, federal and International waters. - you want to be be able to use your boat not only as "luxury" boat It will depends of cause on source of your income, but it is different story. Different states have different determination if you can claim yourself as resident of that state (definition of resident is unclear itself in this case as well - you need to read state law). I do NOT want to go into any political discussion here - just practical. If someone is more comfortable in private conversation - send me e-mail please. I would appreciate some links to current Law as well. Just some clue what gave me another perspective to look at this: Quote: "U.S. citizen" or "citizen of the United States" status is the vehicle within federal statutes and "acts of Congress" that the federal government uses to illegally and wrongfully assert jurisdiction over sovereign Americans who were either born or are living in states of the Union. However, as this line of questioning will show, most Americans are not "U.S. citizens" or "citizens of the United States" within federal statutes, because of differences in meaning of the term "United States" and "State" between federal statutes and the U.S. Constitution. Most Americans born in states of the Union are instead defined in federal statutes as "nationals" or "nationals but not citizens", and this includes those who obtained their citizenship either by birth or naturalization. As "nationals", they are "nonresident aliens" for the purposes of the Internal Revenue Code and for these persons, only income from the federal United States counts as income from "sources within the United States" subject to tax. End of quote| 29942|29941|2013-03-17 15:23:33|Paul Wilson|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|I don't know they present rules but when I lived on boats in Canada, the govt and my bank wouldn't accept a boat as a legal residence. Even the marina address wasn't good enough because it was a common drop-off. They feel it is too transient so I had to use a friend's house for all personal mail. I would treat boat registration and residency separate since you are going to be traveling on the boat anyway. Taxes from state to state vary wildly so I would try to come up with a land based residency that is in a low tax jurisdiction. Preferably an address that will handle and forward your mail. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 18/03/2013 7:48 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > I am running into interesting future decision "Where to register a > boat?" It looks simple at first, but getting more and more complicated > when you start digging it up. There are several reasons for that. > Let's imagine this scenario: > > - boat is only the place you claim as your main residence > - you need to save on taxes and expenses (income taxes, registration, > insurance, etc) > - it should be LEGAL (means - you can use current differences in Fed& > States laws and US Constitution to your advantage) > - there is possibility traveling trough states, federal and > International waters. > - you want to be be able to use your boat not only as "luxury" boat > > It will depends of cause on source of your income, but it is different > story. Different states have different determination if you can claim > yourself as resident of that state (definition of resident is unclear > itself in this case as well - you need to read state law). > > I do NOT want to go into any political discussion here - just > practical. If someone is more comfortable in private conversation - > send me e-mail please. I would appreciate some links to current Law as > well. > > Just some clue what gave me another perspective to look at this: > Quote: > "U.S. citizen" or "citizen of the United States" status is the vehicle > within federal statutes and "acts of Congress" that the federal > government uses to illegally and wrongfully assert jurisdiction over > sovereign Americans who were either born or are living in states of > the Union. However, as this line of questioning will show, most > Americans are not "U.S. citizens" or "citizens of the United States" > within federal statutes, because of differences in meaning of the term > "United States" and "State" between federal statutes and the U.S. > Constitution. Most Americans born in states of the Union are instead > defined in federal statutes as "nationals" or "nationals but not > citizens", and this includes those who obtained their citizenship > either by birth or naturalization. As "nationals", they are > "nonresident aliens" for the purposes of the Internal Revenue Code and > for these persons, only income from the federal United States counts > as income from "sources within the United States" subject to tax. > End of quote > > | 29943|29941|2013-03-17 16:04:59|wild_explorer|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Is there some well established companies for such services? What most cruisers use? I heard about some companies which will forward your mail (images) over e-mail. Is it correct? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I would treat boat registration and residency separate > since you are going to be traveling on the boat anyway. Taxes from state > to state vary wildly so I would try to come up with a land based > residency that is in a low tax jurisdiction. Preferably an address that > will handle and forward your mail. > > Paul | 29944|29941|2013-03-17 18:03:58|R. Jason Adams|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Hello, Check out http://www.sbimailservice.com/ We used them while cruising and the service was great. It's such a nice service that we kept our mail going there after we returned. -R. Jason Adams On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 4:04 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > ** > > > Is there some well established companies for such services? What most > cruisers use? I heard about some companies which will forward your mail > (images) over e-mail. Is it correct? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29945|29938|2013-03-17 18:06:52|brentswain38|Re: Bending Deck/ForeDeck beams to arc shape|Yes hydraulic jack is very slow , only useful for beams too heavy for the hammer. But who would want a boat that big anyway. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I tried both methods in Brent's book. First of all, hydraulic jack idea does not work well. It might be necessary for heavier flat bar than is used for 36 or 40 footer, but it will be VERY slow process. > > Sledge hummer technique works much better and faster. And it is simple. > > Basically, you just create an arc from straight segments anyway (similar how the arc is represented in CAD software, more segments - more accurate representation of the arc). > > Placing jack at the middle (one point) of flat bar will give you just 2 angled but straight sides (bending in hard direction). Same is with hammering on the middle of the beam. You need more bending points if you want reasonable arc. > > Making beam with sledge hummer and using 5"-7" segments' marks (where you hammer on the beam) gives reasonably smooth arc. Deck beam is OK with 4 segments (3 bending points). Foredeck beams need more segments. > > If you draw arc pattern, it is easy to make all beams with equal radius and good precision. Or you can bent longer beam first and use it as a pattern. > > Long beams tend to twist during forming, but it is simple to straighten it back without tools/hammer (easy bend direction). > | 29946|29941|2013-03-17 21:29:38|wild_explorer|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Thanks! I see that this company was mentioned in different forums. The address in Florida. May be somebody have additional comment on cons/pros listed below for Florida? FLORIDA Pros: - No state income tax - Retirement Income: Not taxed. Cons: - State Sales Tax: 6% (food, prescription and non-prescription drugs exempt). There are additional county sales taxes which could make the combined rate as high as 9.5%. - All property is taxable at 100% of its just valuation. - Diesel Fuel Tax: * 30.5 cents/gallon Florida Boats Pros: - A boat must be located in Florida to qualify for registration and titling, but owner residency is not required. - Florida does not require registration and titling on outboard motors. - A boat must be located in Florida to qualify for registration and titling, but owner residency is not required. - Boat titles are issued on all registered boats in Florida except those which are Coast Guard documented. - Co-owners are recognized by "and" or "or" designations. Other types of joint tenancy are also recognized. Florida Boats Cons: - Registration is required on Coast Guard documented vessels. - Sales or use tax is levied on all first time registrations and ownership transfers in Florida. Tax rates vary by county. - Hull identification numbers must be inspected by a Florida law enforcement official if there is a discrepancy. - A visitation period of 90 days is allowed in Florida for any vessel already covered by a registration number in full force and effect which has been awarded by: (1) Another state pursuant to a federally approved numbering system; (2) The United States Coast Guard in a state without a federally approved numbering system; (3) or The United States Coast Guard for a federally documented vessel with a valid registration in full force and effect from another state. - The sale, abandonment, theft, or destruction of a Florida registered boat must be reported to the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles within 30 days. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "R. Jason Adams" wrote: > > Hello, > > Check out http://www.sbimailservice.com/ > > We used them while cruising and the service was great. It's such a nice > service that we kept our mail going there after we returned. > > -R. Jason Adams | 29947|29941|2013-03-17 22:26:51|Paul Wilson|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|I have heard about people and businesses moving to Florida and Texas because of the tax breaks. Isn't there something about Delaware being advantageous when it comes to boats? I say this because I have seen a lot of boats around the world registered in Delaware. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 18/03/2013 2:29 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Thanks! I see that this company was mentioned in different forums. The > address in Florida. May be somebody have additional comment on > cons/pros listed below for Florida? > > FLORIDA > Pros: > - No state income tax > - Retirement Income: Not taxed. > > Cons: > - State Sales Tax: 6% (food, prescription and non-prescription drugs > exempt). There are additional county sales taxes which could make the > combined rate as high as 9.5%. > - All property is taxable at 100% of its just valuation. > - Diesel Fuel Tax: * 30.5 cents/gallon > > Florida Boats Pros: > - A boat must be located in Florida to qualify for registration and > titling, but owner residency is not required. > - Florida does not require registration and titling on outboard motors. > - A boat must be located in Florida to qualify for registration and > titling, but owner residency is not required. > - Boat titles are issued on all registered boats in Florida except > those which are Coast Guard documented. > - Co-owners are recognized by "and" or "or" designations. Other types > of joint tenancy are also recognized. > > Florida Boats Cons: > - Registration is required on Coast Guard documented vessels. > - Sales or use tax is levied on all first time registrations and > ownership transfers in Florida. Tax rates vary by county. > - Hull identification numbers must be inspected by a Florida law > enforcement official if there is a discrepancy. > - A visitation period of 90 days is allowed in Florida for any vessel > already covered by a registration number in full force and effect > which has been awarded by: (1) Another state pursuant to a federally > approved numbering system; (2) The United States Coast Guard in a > state without a federally approved numbering system; (3) or The United > States Coast Guard for a federally documented vessel with a valid > registration in full force and effect from another state. > - The sale, abandonment, theft, or destruction of a Florida registered > boat must be reported to the Department of Highway Safety and Motor > Vehicles within 30 days. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "R. Jason Adams" > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > Check out http://www.sbimailservice.com/ > > > > We used them while cruising and the service was great. It's such a nice > > service that we kept our mail going there after we returned. > > > > -R. Jason Adams > > | 29948|29941|2013-03-17 23:44:26|wild_explorer|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|It was something about registering a boat as "Delaware corporation". Not sure how it works and if corporate law was not changed and has any advantage compare to other states. As now: DELAWARE Pros: - State Sales Tax: None Cons: - Tax Rate Range: Low – 2.2%; High – 6.75% - Federal Income Tax Deduction: None - Retirement Income Taxes: Social Security and Railroad Retirement benefits are exempt. Taxpayers 60 and older can exclude $12,500 of investment and qualified pension income. They may qualify for an additional tax credit of $110. Out-of-state government pensions qualify for the pension and retirement exemption. Under age 60, $2,000 is exempt. If you are 65 or older on December 31, you are eligible for an additional standard deduction of $2,500 (if you do not itemize). - All real property in the state is subject to tax unless specifically exempt. - Property is assessed at 100% of market value. - Diesel Fuel Tax: Tax 46.4 cents/gallon (Includes all taxes) Delaware Boat Law: Pros: - No sales, excise, or personal property taxes are levied on boats in Delaware. - Boat registration is available to non-residents if the boat's principal area of operation is within the State of Delaware. - Delaware does not issue titles or registrations on outboard motors. Cons: - Registration is required on all motorized boats except those which are Coast Guard documented. However, documented boats may be registered at the owner's option. Delaware boat registrations are available on a 1 to 3 year basis. - Boats are not titled in Delaware. This is a registration only state. - Delaware does not have provisions for conditional or bonded boat registrations where sufficient proof of ownership can not be provided. - Joint ownership terms are not defined on boat registrations in Delaware. - The hull number must be inspected by an enforcement official if there is a related discrepancy. - Boats that are Coast Guard documented or registered in another state are allowed a visitation period of 60 days --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I have heard about people and businesses moving to Florida and Texas > because of the tax breaks. > > Isn't there something about Delaware being advantageous when it comes to > boats? I say this because I have seen a lot of boats around the world > registered in Delaware. > > Paul | 29949|29941|2013-03-18 08:37:54|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Am 18.03.2013 um 04:44 schrieb wild_explorer: > It was something about registering a boat as "Delaware corporation". Not sure how it works and if corporate law was not changed and has any advantage compare to other states. > > The Delaware registration is such a vastly (ab-)used way to register medium to huge yachts both motor and sail all around the Med these days, no matter whether it's in Italy, Greece, Turkey, Spain and even Malta and Cypros (the latter formerly both known as particular cheap-flag-countries themselves) that I would give it a try in terms of researching more information about the required corporation-thingy, especially when using the boat in charter or transportation of any means is about getting part of Your living. Having a lawyer, payed in advance to pass along Your boat-post and (officially) keeping any sort of 'the wild-boat-corporation' post-box settled in Delaware might be a lot cheaper than anything else without a steadily fixed address. Even Guernsey, Jersey, The Isle-of-Man and some other classical shady places to hide Your boat's actual ownership by registering there show quickly decreasing appearance in the Med, while the Delaware registrations still are increasing. S.th. completely different: What I heard recently was St. Kitts as being a place offering sailboat registration without the presence of neither boat nor owner, but I'd pass You on privately to the source of information if something like St Kitts would be a place of interest to You at all. Cheers G_B [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29950|29941|2013-03-18 15:14:26|Pris Sail|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Are you a US citizen?  If so Florida and Nevada are the only states that I know of where you can be a resident and not live there.  Lots of cruisers (and other transients like traveling nurses and people living in motor homes) "live" at SBI.  It is a real dirt address, accepted for your drivers license, insurance, banks, etc., and since you will be a resident of Green Cove Springs you will be registered to vote there (thank goodness for absentee ballots).  Florida has no income taxes. SBI has all the paperwork online to become a FL resident, and they will help you with it.  You have to get your own drivers license and go to FL to do that in person.  Everything else - I became a FL resident without going to FL, I've never even been to Green Cove Springs.  For a fee, SBI will scan your envelopes, open your mail and scan the contents, pay your bills, pretty much anything you need while traveling they do it.  All their services are on the link R. Jason provided. Even if your boat is documented, FL (and several other states) require that you pay for FL registration if your boat is in the state for more than three months. SBI is an outstanding company and service, I've been "living" there for five years.  And what a relief to finally have a permanent "home", I've moved nine times in the past five years and never had to change my address. There is a similar service in Nevada, but you have to physically go there to become a resident, you can't do it by mail and online.  I think NV also has no income taxes. ________________________________ From: R. Jason Adams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc Hello, Check out http://www.sbimailservice.com/ We used them while cruising and the service was great. It's such a nice service that we kept our mail going there after we returned. -R. Jason Adams On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 4:04 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > ** > > > Is there some well established companies for such services? What most > cruisers use? I heard about some companies which will forward your mail > (images) over e-mail. Is it correct? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]   | 29951|29941|2013-03-18 15:14:36|Jimmy Noble|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Can anyone help me out. I removed myself from the group, but still get the messages. ...Jimmy Noble... On Mar 17, 2013 2:49 PM, "wild_explorer" wrote: > ** > > > I am running into interesting future decision "Where to register a boat?" > It looks simple at first, but getting more and more complicated when you > start digging it up. There are several reasons for that. Let's imagine this > scenario: > > - boat is only the place you claim as your main residence > - you need to save on taxes and expenses (income taxes, registration, > insurance, etc) > - it should be LEGAL (means - you can use current differences in Fed& > States laws and US Constitution to your advantage) > - there is possibility traveling trough states, federal and International > waters. > - you want to be be able to use your boat not only as "luxury" boat > > It will depends of cause on source of your income, but it is different > story. Different states have different determination if you can claim > yourself as resident of that state (definition of resident is unclear > itself in this case as well - you need to read state law). > > I do NOT want to go into any political discussion here - just practical. > If someone is more comfortable in private conversation - send me e-mail > please. I would appreciate some links to current Law as well. > > Just some clue what gave me another perspective to look at this: > Quote: > "U.S. citizen" or "citizen of the United States" status is the vehicle > within federal statutes and "acts of Congress" that the federal government > uses to illegally and wrongfully assert jurisdiction over sovereign > Americans who were either born or are living in states of the Union. > However, as this line of questioning will show, most Americans are not > "U.S. citizens" or "citizens of the United States" within federal statutes, > because of differences in meaning of the term "United States" and "State" > between federal statutes and the U.S. Constitution. Most Americans born in > states of the Union are instead defined in federal statutes as "nationals" > or "nationals but not citizens", and this includes those who obtained their > citizenship either by birth or naturalization. As "nationals", they are > "nonresident aliens" for the purposes of the Internal Revenue Code and for > these persons, only income from the federal United States counts as income > from "sources within the United States" subject to tax. > End of quote > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29952|29941|2013-03-18 15:14:47|Jimmy Noble|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Can someone remove me from the emails please ...Jimmy Noble... On Mar 17, 2013 10:26 PM, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > I have heard about people and businesses moving to Florida and Texas > because of the tax breaks. > > Isn't there something about Delaware being advantageous when it comes to > boats? I say this because I have seen a lot of boats around the world > registered in Delaware. > > Paul > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. >�. > > On 18/03/2013 2:29 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > Thanks! I see that this company was mentioned in different forums. The > > address in Florida. May be somebody have additional comment on > > cons/pros listed below for Florida? > > > > FLORIDA > > Pros: > > - No state income tax > > - Retirement Income: Not taxed. > > > > Cons: > > - State Sales Tax: 6% (food, prescription and non-prescription drugs > > exempt). There are additional county sales taxes which could make the > > combined rate as high as 9.5%. > > - All property is taxable at 100% of its just valuation. > > - Diesel Fuel Tax: * 30.5 cents/gallon > > > > Florida Boats Pros: > > - A boat must be located in Florida to qualify for registration and > > titling, but owner residency is not required. > > - Florida does not require registration and titling on outboard motors. > > - A boat must be located in Florida to qualify for registration and > > titling, but owner residency is not required. > > - Boat titles are issued on all registered boats in Florida except > > those which are Coast Guard documented. > > - Co-owners are recognized by "and" or "or" designations. Other types > > of joint tenancy are also recognized. > > > > Florida Boats Cons: > > - Registration is required on Coast Guard documented vessels. > > - Sales or use tax is levied on all first time registrations and > > ownership transfers in Florida. Tax rates vary by county. > > - Hull identification numbers must be inspected by a Florida law > > enforcement official if there is a discrepancy. > > - A visitation period of 90 days is allowed in Florida for any vessel > > already covered by a registration number in full force and effect > > which has been awarded by: (1) Another state pursuant to a federally > > approved numbering system; (2) The United States Coast Guard in a > > state without a federally approved numbering system; (3) or The United > > States Coast Guard for a federally documented vessel with a valid > > registration in full force and effect from another state. > > - The sale, abandonment, theft, or destruction of a Florida registered > > boat must be reported to the Department of Highway Safety and Motor > > Vehicles within 30 days. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "R. Jason Adams" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Check out http://www.sbimailservice.com/ > > > > > > We used them while cruising and the service was great. It's such a nice > > > service that we kept our mail going there after we returned. > > > > > > -R. Jason Adams > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29953|29941|2013-03-18 20:00:11|Mike|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|You must not have removed yourself from the group. I'd check again. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2013, at 8:33 PM, Jimmy Noble wrote: > Can anyone help me out. I removed myself from the group, but still get the > messages. > > ...Jimmy Noble... > On Mar 17, 2013 2:49 PM, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I am running into interesting future decision "Where to register a boat?" > > It looks simple at first, but getting more and more complicated when you > > start digging it up. There are several reasons for that. Let's imagine this > > scenario: > > > > - boat is only the place you claim as your main residence > > - you need to save on taxes and expenses (income taxes, registration, > > insurance, etc) > > - it should be LEGAL (means - you can use current differences in Fed& > > States laws and US Constitution to your advantage) > > - there is possibility traveling trough states, federal and International > > waters. > > - you want to be be able to use your boat not only as "luxury" boat > > > > It will depends of cause on source of your income, but it is different > > story. Different states have different determination if you can claim > > yourself as resident of that state (definition of resident is unclear > > itself in this case as well - you need to read state law). > > > > I do NOT want to go into any political discussion here - just practical. > > If someone is more comfortable in private conversation - send me e-mail > > please. I would appreciate some links to current Law as well. > > > > Just some clue what gave me another perspective to look at this: > > Quote: > > "U.S. citizen" or "citizen of the United States" status is the vehicle > > within federal statutes and "acts of Congress" that the federal government > > uses to illegally and wrongfully assert jurisdiction over sovereign > > Americans who were either born or are living in states of the Union. > > However, as this line of questioning will show, most Americans are not > > "U.S. citizens" or "citizens of the United States" within federal statutes, > > because of differences in meaning of the term "United States" and "State" > > between federal statutes and the U.S. Constitution. Most Americans born in > > states of the Union are instead defined in federal statutes as "nationals" > > or "nationals but not citizens", and this includes those who obtained their > > citizenship either by birth or naturalization. As "nationals", they are > > "nonresident aliens" for the purposes of the Internal Revenue Code and for > > these persons, only income from the federal United States counts as income > > from "sources within the United States" subject to tax. > > End of quote > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29954|29941|2013-03-19 00:28:44|wild_explorer|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Hmm... It looks like i need to follow Paul's suggestion to separate personal residency and boat registration. There is not much options here. FL looks OK for personal residency. AK residency might be better (on west coast), but harder to get it. I could not find any forwarding service in AK and it requires physical presence to establish residency. Boat could be USCG registered (with home port in AK or DE). Just need to keep track of allowable limit of boat's presence in different states (this is pretty easy resolvable too). P.S. I appreciate detailed information. Thanks! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Pris Sail wrote: > > > Even if your boat is documented, FL (and several other states) require that you pay for FL registration if your boat is in the state for more than three months. > | 29955|29941|2013-03-19 16:42:33|Pris Sail|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|What do you mean "separate personal residency and boat registration."??  You can be a FL (or NV) resident and live anywhere, and you can pick any home port you like for documentation, I've even seen "Denver".  If the boat is in a state that doesn't require documented boats to be state registered then no state registration is required, regardless of the boat's documented home port.  If the boat is in a state that requires documented boats to be state registered then you "need" to register your boat for that state. I say "need" because you don't have to, but the cost of registration is nothing compared to the fine if you get caught.  And if your boat is in a marina, state officials do walk the docks on occasion and if your boat does not display the state registration sticker all they have to do is ask the marina office how long your boat has been there.  Most marinas require a year lease; many marinas do not allow living aboard. If your finances are so incredibly tight that you can't afford a state's boat registration and you are not living aboard then keep your boat in any state that doesn't require documented boats to be state registered.  If you are living aboard then you can either move often, or keep your boat in someone's back yard, which can be v-e-r-y "interesting".  And a "cheap" dock in someone's back yard isn't so cheap when you look at the big picture, you'll have to pay a pumpout boat to visit you so check that expense, and you won't have 30 amp power, meaning no heat or air conditioning, and probably no water heater either.  If you don't shower on your boat then you'll have to join a gym. For my boat, FL boat registration was $150/year, TX $150/two years.  Pumpout boats have ranged from $5/visit to $60/month for two pumpouts, pumpouts are generally free at marinas when available.  Gyms $70/month to $330/year, live aboard marinas usually have showers.  Slips (including live aboard fees) $320/month to $1350/month.  And those are just numbers, available work (I'm a marine industry professional) and range of quality of life has been huge.  Some personal experience - it seems most boat things in the world are made in Ft. Lauderdale, yes it is a great place to shop, but it was the worst and most expensive city I have ever lived.  In most respects Florida had the highest cost of living and lowest quality of life of the 10 states I have lived. Taxes and state boat registration are the very least of your worries, unless you are retired or have a home-based business you also need to consider the local job market.  (If you are not living aboard there are travel expenses to and from the boat.)  All marinas require liability insurance, which you should have regardless, and if the boat is on the Gulf or East coasts may want to consider hurricane insurance.  Have a *real* good look at the place you will keep your boat - if it isn't a good hurricane hole will it withstand a storm and/or storm surge?  And if you are working on your boat you need to be someplace you can get materials, parts and services and have a place to do work with power to run your tools. And last but not least ... when looking for a place to keep your boat, remember her draft and bridge clearance. ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 11:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc Hmm... It looks like i need to follow Paul's suggestion to separate personal residency and boat registration. There is not much options here. FL looks OK for personal residency. AK residency might be better (on west coast), but harder to get it. I could not find any forwarding service in AK and it requires physical presence to establish residency. Boat could be USCG registered (with home port in AK or DE). Just need to keep track of allowable limit of boat's presence in different states (this is pretty easy resolvable too). P.S. I appreciate detailed information. Thanks! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Pris Sail wrote: > > > Even if your boat is documented, FL (and several other states) require that you pay for FL registration if your boat is in the state for more than three months. >   | 29956|29956|2013-03-19 19:28:30|Darren Bos|Mantus Anchor|Has anyone tried a Mantus Anchor? Advertising hype aside, it looks like a nice design, especially for a large storm anchor that you could take apart and keep low in the bilge. Darren| 29957|29941|2013-03-19 20:24:02|wild_explorer|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Good information and good points. Thanks. First of all, about residency.... I prefer to be in the state without income/dividends taxes. Simply, because in this case, I can work in ANY state and I will not be double-taxed (it is a real problem which many people are missing). If boat is USCG documented, I would prefer to have boat's home port in the state which has no state's registration requirements for USCG registered boats. It is not only because of extra expenses, but registration of the boat in the state, may affect your taxes. So, It would be better that such state is "without income/dividends tax" as well. I am looking at AK at this point as alternative to DE for home port (DE had no income tax before, but does now). Another things, that I would prefer to have boat's home port in the state which has good corporate law, just in case If I want to use boat on commercial basis. It would be hard to deal with different states on different matters. So far, I do not see any state which has all of this: - allow to be resident, but not to live there - no income/dividends tax - no registration for USCG documented boats - good climate for business (if you register some kind of corporation to use your boat to do business) May be I missed something... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Pris Sail wrote: > > What do you mean "separate personal residency and boat registration."??  You can be a FL (or NV) resident and live anywhere, and you can pick any home port you like for documentation, I've even seen "Denver".  If the boat is in a state that doesn't require documented boats to be state registered then no state registration is required, regardless of the boat's documented home port.  If the boat is in a state that requires documented boats to be state registered then you "need" to register your boat for that state. > | 29958|29941|2013-03-19 20:55:14|Paul Wilson|Re: Mantus Anchor|It looks like copy of one of the new generation anchors.....they are all quite good at holding and digging in compared to the older style plow or Bruce. My 45 pound plow could be a real bear at times. The Bulwagga anchor looks extremely easy to build. I am sure you could come up with a bolt together version for storage below since is all flat plates. Check out the following link. The write-up is a little biased, but good. The construction details leave something to be desired on some of the anchors. The Sarca looks like it would fold over in any kind wind or side load. http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/new-gen-boat-anchors-explained.php http://www.web4homes.com/c380/bulwaggaanchors.htm I am a big fan of tandem anchoring....rather than having a huge storm anchor down below I have two rather large regular anchors. Either one is big enough to hold the boat but in a really bad storm I put the second one in line with the first and gain tremendous holding power. I believe that the two together in series will hold more than the two on individual lines. You can also swing and turn as the storm passes and the wind shifts. http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.php Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 20/03/2013 12:32 p.m., Darren Bos wrote: > > Has anyone tried a Mantus Anchor? Advertising hype aside, it looks > like a nice design, especially for a large storm anchor that you > could take apart and keep low in the bilge. > > Darren > > | 29959|29956|2013-03-19 20:58:03|wild_explorer|Re: Mantus Anchor|Looks like another anchor from "plow" family.... It holds together by bolts. What happens if you misplace bolts or wrench? I think Dough posted design of Spade anchor with detachable shank and roll-bar. It does not rely on bolts only to keep its integrity. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Has anyone tried a Mantus Anchor? Advertising hype aside, it looks > like a nice design, especially for a large storm anchor that you > could take apart and keep low in the bilge. > > Darren > | 29960|29960|2013-03-20 15:10:39|brentswain38|Switches|I bought some of those in line lamp switches. looks like they have screwed up the new ones. A Leviton had a dainty, fragile , yachty type sealed switch inside the robust looking housing and the other had changed from a sliding contact to a touch contact.I'll be taking hem back for a refund. My Guest battery selector melted down so I used a Mexican ceramic , open knife switch which should last forever and be easy to deal with.| 29961|29960|2013-03-20 15:18:03|Paul Wilson|Re: Switches|I have seen quite a few of the large rotary battery switches fail on boats....if you are heading offshore, best keep a spare or be prepared to bypass them in an emergency. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 21/03/2013 8:10 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > I bought some of those in line lamp switches. looks like they have > screwed up the new ones. A Leviton had a dainty, fragile , yachty type > sealed switch inside the robust looking housing and the other had > changed from a sliding contact to a touch contact.I'll be taking hem > back for a refund. My Guest battery selector melted down so I used a > Mexican ceramic , open knife switch which should last forever and be > easy to deal with. > > | 29962|29941|2013-03-20 19:00:30|Tom Pee|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Do not document your boats.  With documentation your boat becomes lienable property.  Once a judgement has been entered against you, filing a lien is very easy.   State registration is mostly permission to use State waterways and a revenue enhancer for the State, it is not a title to boat property. From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 8:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc   Good information and good points. Thanks. First of all, about residency.... I prefer to be in the state without income/dividends taxes. Simply, because in this case, I can work in ANY state and I will not be double-taxed (it is a real problem which many people are missing). If boat is USCG documented, I would prefer to have boat's home port in the state which has no state's registration requirements for USCG registered boats. It is not only because of extra expenses, but registration of the boat in the state, may affect your taxes. So, It would be better that such state is "without income/dividends tax" as well. I am looking at AK at this point as alternative to DE for home port (DE had no income tax before, but does now). Another things, that I would prefer to have boat's home port in the state which has good corporate law, just in case If I want to use boat on commercial basis. It would be hard to deal with different states on different matters. So far, I do not see any state which has all of this: - allow to be resident, but not to live there - no income/dividends tax - no registration for USCG documented boats - good climate for business (if you register some kind of corporation to use your boat to do business) May be I missed something... --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Pris Sail wrote: > > What do you mean "separate personal residency and boat registration."??  You can be a FL (or NV) resident and live anywhere, and you can pick any home port you like for documentation, I've even seen "Denver".  If the boat is in a state that doesn't require documented boats to be state registered then no state registration is required, regardless of the boat's documented home port.  If the boat is in a state that requires documented boats to be state registered then you "need" to register your boat for that state. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29963|29941|2013-03-20 21:13:52|wild_explorer|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Do you mean "Do not title your boat"? I do not think that it is possible to get away without any type of registration - you will not be able to get insurance for the boat. Some states require registration only - without titling (like AK). Even if you only register your boat, there is a record it is yours and subject to a possible lien as I understand. It could be a problem to prove (I mean quickly) that the boat is yours as well. It might be a problem to sail in International waters. USCG registration is different as I understand. It is federal level - similar to a title accepted in all states. P.S. I agree, you need to think about worth case scenario... If your boat is accessible to law enforcement, it is easy to file lien as well. For example, you did not pay someone for documented work (for hire) done on your boat. P.S.S. As long as your boat is not arrested or confiscated, you will be able to use it. Not sure if court will allow to take your boat away if it is the only place you live in (need to do more research). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > Do not document your boats.  With documentation your boat becomes lienable property.  Once a judgement has been entered against you, filing a lien is very easy.   State registration is mostly permission to use State waterways and a revenue enhancer for the State, it is not a title to boat property. > | 29964|29941|2013-03-20 23:10:14|Darren Bos|Re: Mantus Anchor|Thanks Paul. I liked the look of the Mantus as it is also just plate like the bugel, but seems to compare very well with the Rocna in terms of holding. The take-apart feature seemed well suited to a big storm anchor that could be stored down low. Tandem anchoring was a good point to bring up. My lack of experience with it make me a bit nervous. Mostly, I would be concerned about the primary anchor fouling on the tandem when the wind shifts. Also, if you should need to reset the anchor during storm conditions handling the two tandem anchors looks more difficult than handling a single larger anchor. Darren At 05:53 PM 19/03/2013, you wrote: >It looks like copy of one of the new generation anchors.....they are all >quite good at holding and digging in compared to the older style plow or >Bruce. My 45 pound plow could be a real bear at times. > >The Bulwagga anchor looks extremely easy to build. I am sure you could >come up with a bolt together version for storage below since is all flat >plates. Check out the following link. The write-up is a little biased, >but good. The construction details leave something to be desired on some >of the anchors. The Sarca looks like it would fold over in any kind wind >or side load. > >http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/new-gen-boat-anchors-explained.php > >http://www.web4homes.com/c380/bulwaggaanchors.htm > >I am a big fan of tandem anchoring....rather than having a huge storm >anchor down below I have two rather large regular anchors. Either one is >big enough to hold the boat but in a really bad storm I put the second >one in line with the first and gain tremendous holding power. I believe >that the two together in series will hold more than the two on >individual lines. You can also swing and turn as the storm passes and >the wind shifts. > >http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.php > >Cheers, Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > >On 20/03/2013 12:32 p.m., Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Has anyone tried a Mantus Anchor? Advertising hype aside, it looks > > like a nice design, especially for a large storm anchor that you > > could take apart and keep low in the bilge. > > > > Darren > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 29965|29956|2013-03-21 00:27:21|Darren Bos|Re: Mantus Anchor|Thanks Wild, I have Doug's design along with much of his other valuable contributions stored in a special folder in my drive. However, the version I have of Doug's design is for a spade anchor that does not have a roll bar and looks to have extra plate welded to the front to provide ballast. The Mantus does not have ballast in the front and is shaped a bit more like a Rocna but is made of flat plate like a Bugel. So it seems to combine some of the best features for holding, simplicity in design and take apart for storage of a really big storm anchor. I was thinking about buying a smaller version for my current boat and then using it as a template to scale up a sizable storm anchor. Darren At 05:58 PM 19/03/2013, you wrote: > > >Looks like another anchor from "plow" family.... >It holds together by bolts. What happens if you misplace bolts or wrench? > >I think Dough posted design of Spade anchor with >detachable shank and roll-bar. It does not rely >on bolts only to keep its integrity. > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Has anyone tried a Mantus Anchor? Advertising hype aside, it looks > > like a nice design, especially for a large storm anchor that you > > could take apart and keep low in the bilge. > > > > Darren > > > > | 29966|29956|2013-03-22 01:27:26|wild_explorer|Re: Mantus Anchor|Darren, I like the idea of that shape - easy to make. And it should be as good as "round" shaped anchors. I am just looking from design point of view... May be someone can give an idea how to modify/replace attachment assembly (instead of bolts). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Thanks Wild, > > I have Doug's design along with much of his other > valuable contributions stored in a special folder > in my drive. However, the version I have of > Doug's design is for a spade anchor that does not > have a roll bar and looks to have extra plate > welded to the front to provide ballast. The > Mantus does not have ballast in the front and is > shaped a bit more like a Rocna but is made of > flat plate like a Bugel. So it seems to combine > some of the best features for holding, simplicity > in design and take apart for storage of a really > big storm anchor. I was thinking about buying a > smaller version for my current boat and then > using it as a template to scale up a sizable storm anchor. > > Darren > | 29967|29956|2013-03-22 08:13:57|MICHAEL FELTON|Re: Mantus Anchor|I been looking for Doug's design but I havent come across it yet can someone point me in the right direction.  Thanks, Michael From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 12:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mantus Anchor   Darren, I like the idea of that shape - easy to make. And it should be as good as "round" shaped anchors. I am just looking from design point of view... May be someone can give an idea how to modify/replace attachment assembly (instead of bolts). --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Thanks Wild, > > I have Doug's design along with much of his other > valuable contributions stored in a special folder > in my drive. However, the version I have of > Doug's design is for a spade anchor that does not > have a roll bar and looks to have extra plate > welded to the front to provide ballast. The > Mantus does not have ballast in the front and is > shaped a bit more like a Rocna but is made of > flat plate like a Bugel. So it seems to combine > some of the best features for holding, simplicity > in design and take apart for storage of a really > big storm anchor. I was thinking about buying a > smaller version for my current boat and then > using it as a template to scale up a sizable storm anchor. > > Darren > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29968|29956|2013-03-22 10:06:30|wild_explorer|Re: Mantus Anchor|http://www.submarineboat.com/anchors.htm Mantus anchor has 3 segments, Dougs' has 2. I think it is possible to combine the ideas. P.S. Doug is looking at things from engineering point of view and that what I like about information on his web-site. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MICHAEL FELTON wrote: > > I been looking for Doug's design but I havent come across it yet can someone point me in the right direction.  Thanks, Michael > > | 29969|29956|2013-03-22 12:15:28|Mike|Re: Mantus Anchor|Thanks that's a great site. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2013, at 9:06 AM, "wild_explorer" wrote: > http://www.submarineboat.com/anchors.htm > > Mantus anchor has 3 segments, Dougs' has 2. I think it is possible to combine the ideas. > > P.S. Doug is looking at things from engineering point of view and that what I like about information on his web-site. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MICHAEL FELTON wrote: > > > > I been looking for Doug's design but I havent come across it yet can someone point me in the right direction. Thanks, Michael > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29970|29956|2013-03-22 16:11:37|Pris Sail|Re: Mantus Anchor|Turns out the guy who invented the Mantus is across the lake from me, and he has a booth at our local boat show right now.  Since I'm happy with my anchors I've deleted the Mantus  posts without reading them, but today stopped to look at the anchors because I recognized the name from the subject line. Wow, that's a cool anchor!  No matter how I put it down it quickly rolled over ready to dig in.  He had a box of rather hard muck to test different anchors against his (he had quite a few, claw, plow, ronca ...) and the Mantus dug in immediately whereas most of the others just skidded along the surface.  I watched him and he did pull the different anchors at the same angle.  I know very little about anchor design so I'm just guessing, but I think the Mantus dug in so easily because the nose is VERY sharp/pointy. I am happy with the two anchors on my bow ... and have two more in storage because there isn't a large safe place in my boat to keep a spare anchor that is more than a lunch hook.  What *really* attracted me to the Mantus is how FLAT it is when it is apart in its box.  I am so impressed with how flat it breaks down that I'll get one next year, but with the intention of it as a spare - on the bow it would have to be where my 70-pound delta is and there is no place to keep it inside my boat, and being that I cruise in hurricane country I'm not going anywhere without it.  Aside, I am so impressed with the roll bar I'll thoroughly investigate anchors with that feature before leaving the US. Anyway, I don't know what the Mantus thread was about, but since I'll be going to the boat show every day and the guy is there with his anchors I wanted to make the offer of asking him any questions you might have, or checking anything on the anchors themselves.  I know very little about anchors so it would be a good learning experience for me too.| 29971|29956|2013-03-22 22:59:59|Darren Bos|Re: Mantus Anchor|Wild, I actually like the bolts. For an anchor that can come apart they seem like a good idea. If corrosion jammed the slot in Doug's design, it would take some real work to get it apart again. However, with bolts you could just cut off the bolts and replace with more of the equivalent strength, which are easy to find/identify. For storage, just leave the bolts in the shank of the anchor and they are there when you need them. It is also a trivial cost to keep a bunch of extra bolts on hand (even for higher tensile strength bolts). The Mantus site does a pretty good job of describing why the bolts are more than strong enough and I wouldn't worry the bolts (although I would add red threadlock). As an example, consider the strength of the bolts in your anchor shackles or anchor swivel (if you use one) or even just the strength of chain compared to the bolts use in the Mantus anchors. Darren At 10:27 PM 21/03/2013, you wrote: > > >Darren, I like the idea of that shape - easy to >make. And it should be as good as "round" shaped >anchors. I am just looking from design point of >view... May be someone can give an idea how to >modify/replace attachment assembly (instead of bolts). > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Thanks Wild, > > > > I have Doug's design along with much of his other > > valuable contributions stored in a special folder > > in my drive. However, the version I have of > > Doug's design is for a spade anchor that does not > > have a roll bar and looks to have extra plate > > welded to the front to provide ballast. The > > Mantus does not have ballast in the front and is > > shaped a bit more like a Rocna but is made of > > flat plate like a Bugel. So it seems to combine > > some of the best features for holding, simplicity > > in design and take apart for storage of a really > > big storm anchor. I was thinking about buying a > > smaller version for my current boat and then > > using it as a template to scale up a sizable storm anchor. > > > > Darren > > > > | 29972|29956|2013-03-23 15:16:34|brentswain38|Re: Mantus Anchor|I once read of a guy who welded up a 135 pound anchor for his 36 footer, disassembled it and put it in the bilge. Everyone laughed at him. Then a hurricane came along. He put his 135 pounder together, set it, and watched everyone else dragging by him. When there was no one left to windward of him, he went to bed, and slept soundly til the hurricane passed. One such use of such an anchor pays for having built it and carried it around( as ballast). When I build more anchors, I will leave the shanks off several, to make them compact enough to carry as spares, without taking up too much space. I can easily weld the shanks on, any time I lose an anchor. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > > I actually like the bolts. For an anchor that > can come apart they seem like a good idea. If > corrosion jammed the slot in Doug's design, it > would take some real work to get it apart > again. However, with bolts you could just cut > off the bolts and replace with more of the > equivalent strength, which are easy to > find/identify. For storage, just leave the bolts > in the shank of the anchor and they are there > when you need them. It is also a trivial cost to > keep a bunch of extra bolts on hand (even for > higher tensile strength bolts). The Mantus site > does a pretty good job of describing why the > bolts are more than strong enough and I wouldn't > worry the bolts (although I would add red > threadlock). As an example, consider the > strength of the bolts in your anchor shackles or > anchor swivel (if you use one) or even just the > strength of chain compared to the bolts use in the Mantus anchors. > > Darren > > At 10:27 PM 21/03/2013, you wrote: > > > > > >Darren, I like the idea of that shape - easy to > >make. And it should be as good as "round" shaped > >anchors. I am just looking from design point of > >view... May be someone can give an idea how to > >modify/replace attachment assembly (instead of bolts). > > > >--- In > >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Wild, > > > > > > I have Doug's design along with much of his other > > > valuable contributions stored in a special folder > > > in my drive. However, the version I have of > > > Doug's design is for a spade anchor that does not > > > have a roll bar and looks to have extra plate > > > welded to the front to provide ballast. The > > > Mantus does not have ballast in the front and is > > > shaped a bit more like a Rocna but is made of > > > flat plate like a Bugel. So it seems to combine > > > some of the best features for holding, simplicity > > > in design and take apart for storage of a really > > > big storm anchor. I was thinking about buying a > > > smaller version for my current boat and then > > > using it as a template to scale up a sizable storm anchor. > > > > > > Darren > > > > > > > > | 29973|29941|2013-03-25 15:09:31|kymmiej63|Re: Mantus Anchor|Sorry, just had to laugh at this reference to the Sarca - I regard it as top-shelf. Sarca's have been around in Australia and New Zealand for over nineteen years and have a great reputation; I am a user and would not go past one when it comes to anchors. Re convex vs concave I think you're winning with a Sarca e.g. not bringing up mud, and also check out the Sarca profile, it digs deep which is also an environmental plus. Sadly they do not have agents in every part of the world but I believe they sell direct through their email. Below is a link, worth checking them out. http://www.anchorright..com.au/sarca/video --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > It looks like copy of one of the new generation anchors.....they are all > quite good at holding and digging in compared to the older style plow or > Bruce. My 45 pound plow could be a real bear at times. > > The Bulwagga anchor looks extremely easy to build. I am sure you could > come up with a bolt together version for storage below since is all flat > plates. Check out the following link. The write-up is a little biased, > but good. The construction details leave something to be desired on some > of the anchors. The Sarca looks like it would fold over in any kind wind > or side load. > > http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/new-gen-boat-anchors-explained.php > > http://www.web4homes.com/c380/bulwaggaanchors.htm > > I am a big fan of tandem anchoring....rather than having a huge storm > anchor down below I have two rather large regular anchors. Either one is > big enough to hold the boat but in a really bad storm I put the second > one in line with the first and gain tremendous holding power. I believe > that the two together in series will hold more than the two on > individual lines. You can also swing and turn as the storm passes and > the wind shifts. > > http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.php > > Cheers, Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 20/03/2013 12:32 p.m., Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Has anyone tried a Mantus Anchor? Advertising hype aside, it looks > > like a nice design, especially for a large storm anchor that you > > could take apart and keep low in the bilge. > > > > Darren > > > > > | 29974|29941|2013-03-25 16:04:39|Paul Wilson|Re: Mantus Anchor|OK, I watched the videos.....funny but I have a used anchor that I bought about a year ago and I never could figure out what type it was. I now think it is an early galv version of the Sarca Excel. Nice anchor and very strong. It is completely different than the normal Sarca. It makes me wonder why they have re-designed it. I don't doubt the holding power but having bent far bigger anchor shanks in storms in the past, the normal Sarca shank doesn't look right to me...compare the thickness of the plate and the shank to the other anchors (some of which use high strength spring steel shanks). The Sarca Excel shank is far bigger. I admit I am hard on gear but I have to agree with Peter Smith's comments. http://www.anchorright.com.au/products/sarca-excel-anchor >>>Its shackle attachment slot runs the full length of its shank to allow the anchor to be pulled out backward if it is fouled. This is only really useful for picnic anchoring as there is always a risk that the anchor may trip itself when you don’t want it to, and it also severely weakens the shank which is made from just mild steel and already lacking in strength. Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 25/03/2013 11:22 a.m., kymmiej63 wrote: > > Sorry, just had to laugh at this reference to the Sarca - I regard it > as top-shelf. Sarca's have been around in Australia and New Zealand > for over nineteen years and have a great reputation; I am a user and > would not go past one when it comes to anchors. Re convex vs concave I > think you're winning with a Sarca e.g. not bringing up mud, and also > check out the Sarca profile, it digs deep which is also an > environmental plus. Sadly they do not have agents in every part of the > world but I believe they sell direct through their email. Below is a > link, worth checking them out. > http://www.anchorright..com.au/sarca/video > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > It looks like copy of one of the new generation anchors.....they are > all > > quite good at holding and digging in compared to the older style > plow or > > Bruce. My 45 pound plow could be a real bear at times. > > > > The Bulwagga anchor looks extremely easy to build. I am sure you could > > come up with a bolt together version for storage below since is all > flat > > plates. Check out the following link. The write-up is a little biased, > > but good. The construction details leave something to be desired on > some > > of the anchors. The Sarca looks like it would fold over in any kind > wind > > or side load. > > > > > http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/new-gen-boat-anchors-explained.php > > > > http://www.web4homes.com/c380/bulwaggaanchors.htm > > > > I am a big fan of tandem anchoring....rather than having a huge storm > > anchor down below I have two rather large regular anchors. Either > one is > > big enough to hold the boat but in a really bad storm I put the second > > one in line with the first and gain tremendous holding power. I believe > > that the two together in series will hold more than the two on > > individual lines. You can also swing and turn as the storm passes and > > the wind shifts. > > > > http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.php > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > > > On 20/03/2013 12:32 p.m., Darren Bos wrote: > > > > > > Has anyone tried a Mantus Anchor? Advertising hype aside, it looks > > > like a nice design, especially for a large storm anchor that you > > > could take apart and keep low in the bilge. > > > > > > Darren > > > > > > > > > > | 29975|29932|2013-03-25 16:52:34|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100|I am going to have paint left over-enough to do a boat. If anyone needs paint, let me know. This is a two part paint in four liter can+1 liter can hardener so 5 liters combined for $100 USD. Sorry but I only have one color-gray. PM me if interested. Thx.Andy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience with Hempels Poly enamel 55100? It's a 2 part polyurethane rated for marine environments. Is it tricky to apply? Does it bond well w/ coal tar base coats, etc,etc???? More info here: > > http://www.hempel.com/en/products/hempathane-enamel-55100 > > Thx.Andy > | 29976|29941|2013-03-26 14:18:17|brentswain38|Re: Mantus Anchor|Looks like just another Delta copy. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > OK, I watched the videos.....funny but I have a used anchor that I > bought about a year ago and I never could figure out what type it was. I > now think it is an early galv version of the Sarca Excel. Nice anchor > and very strong. It is completely different than the normal Sarca. It > makes me wonder why they have re-designed it. > > I don't doubt the holding power but having bent far bigger anchor shanks > in storms in the past, the normal Sarca shank doesn't look right to > me...compare the thickness of the plate and the shank to the other > anchors (some of which use high strength spring steel shanks). The Sarca > Excel shank is far bigger. I admit I am hard on gear but I have to agree > with Peter Smith's comments. > > http://www.anchorright.com.au/products/sarca-excel-anchor > > >>>Its shackle attachment slot runs the full length of its shank to > allow the anchor to be pulled out backward if it is fouled. This is only > really useful for picnic anchoring as there is always a risk that the > anchor may trip itself when you don't want it to, and it also severely > weakens the shank which is made from just mild steel and already lacking > in strength. > > Cheers, Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 25/03/2013 11:22 a.m., kymmiej63 wrote: > > > > Sorry, just had to laugh at this reference to the Sarca - I regard it > > as top-shelf. Sarca's have been around in Australia and New Zealand > > for over nineteen years and have a great reputation; I am a user and > > would not go past one when it comes to anchors. Re convex vs concave I > > think you're winning with a Sarca e.g. not bringing up mud, and also > > check out the Sarca profile, it digs deep which is also an > > environmental plus. Sadly they do not have agents in every part of the > > world but I believe they sell direct through their email. Below is a > > link, worth checking them out. > > http://www.anchorright..com.au/sarca/video > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > It looks like copy of one of the new generation anchors.....they are > > all > > > quite good at holding and digging in compared to the older style > > plow or > > > Bruce. My 45 pound plow could be a real bear at times. > > > > > > The Bulwagga anchor looks extremely easy to build. I am sure you could > > > come up with a bolt together version for storage below since is all > > flat > > > plates. Check out the following link. The write-up is a little biased, > > > but good. The construction details leave something to be desired on > > some > > > of the anchors. The Sarca looks like it would fold over in any kind > > wind > > > or side load. > > > > > > > > http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/new-gen-boat-anchors-explained.php > > > > > > http://www.web4homes.com/c380/bulwaggaanchors.htm > > > > > > I am a big fan of tandem anchoring....rather than having a huge storm > > > anchor down below I have two rather large regular anchors. Either > > one is > > > big enough to hold the boat but in a really bad storm I put the second > > > one in line with the first and gain tremendous holding power. I believe > > > that the two together in series will hold more than the two on > > > individual lines. You can also swing and turn as the storm passes and > > > the wind shifts. > > > > > > http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.php > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > > > > > On 20/03/2013 12:32 p.m., Darren Bos wrote: > > > > > > > > Has anyone tried a Mantus Anchor? Advertising hype aside, it looks > > > > like a nice design, especially for a large storm anchor that you > > > > could take apart and keep low in the bilge. > > > > > > > > Darren > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 29977|29932|2013-03-26 14:19:48|brentswain38|Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100|5 litres wont cover much. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > I am going to have paint left over-enough to do a boat. If anyone needs paint, let me know. This is a two part paint in four liter can+1 liter can hardener so 5 liters combined for $100 USD. Sorry but I only have one color-gray. PM me if interested. Thx.Andy > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > Does anyone have any experience with Hempels Poly enamel 55100? It's a 2 part polyurethane rated for marine environments. Is it tricky to apply? Does it bond well w/ coal tar base coats, etc,etc???? More info here: > > > > http://www.hempel.com/en/products/hempathane-enamel-55100 > > > > Thx.Andy > > > | 29978|29932|2013-03-26 16:40:17|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100|Five liters per set. I have 45 gallons plus hardener. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 5 litres wont cover much. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > I am going to have paint left over-enough to do a boat. If anyone needs paint, let me know. This is a two part paint in four liter can+1 liter can hardener so 5 liters combined for $100 USD. Sorry but I only have one color-gray. PM me if interested. Thx.Andy > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have any experience with Hempels Poly enamel 55100? It's a 2 part polyurethane rated for marine environments. Is it tricky to apply? Does it bond well w/ coal tar base coats, etc,etc???? More info here: > > > > > > http://www.hempel.com/en/products/hempathane-enamel-55100 > > > > > > Thx.Andy > > > > > > | 29979|29956|2013-03-27 11:50:12|m riley|Re: Mantus Anchor|I was running a large powerboat from maine to florida and back for years and had a real CQR on the bow and used it for a few years and it was ok. It was replaced with a delta of the same size and the difference was astounding. much shorter set and never had to re anchor as had to with the plow. did not seem to foul. This anchor does not have any moving parts and gizmos. I don't like my anchor depending on pins or bolts or sliding anything. mike| 29980|29980|2013-03-27 13:27:21|MichaelF|Roller furling with 7/8 external track|What are your thoughts on using 7/8 external sail track on the roller furling pipe. It also would be easier to find hank on sails and add slides with webbing. Ive got about 50 ft of it, can anyone see any problems with this.| 29981|29980|2013-03-27 14:41:47|Paul Wilson|Re: Roller furling with 7/8 external track|You will get bad chafe on the sail from the slides when it is rolled up or reefed. I have seen roller furling using slides but they are very small slugs and hardly protrude from the extrusion. I am not sure how much chafe there is long term or really the point. It seems to me a sail supported throughout its length is stronger and less prone to problems than one with point loading. If you get the right size roller genoa, you will find you rarely change it or remove it on a cruising boat. With a good genoa, you can roller reef it about 20% and it will still maintain a decent shape. If you need to go smaller than that, I roll it in all the way and go with staysail alone and still get lots of drive. For very light winds, you can use flying sails like cruising spinnakers if you are really keen. You can take hank on sails and convert them to roller furling but it gets expensive. You buy the right luff tape and have it sewn on but by the time you also add the UV sun strip it will add a lot to the cost. It is normally better to find a used roller furling sail with a good UV strip and then only change the luff tape if needed. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 28/03/2013 6:27 a.m., MichaelF wrote: > > What are your thoughts on using 7/8 external sail track on the roller > furling pipe. It also would be easier to find hank on sails and add > slides with webbing. Ive got about 50 ft of it, can anyone see any > problems with this. > > | 29982|29982|2013-03-27 20:40:17|Larry Dale|Hi!!!|http://www.pianissimo-sxm.com/cnb/gczvh.cxzd?dhg Larry Dale ee [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29983|29956|2013-03-27 23:30:10|Darren Bos|Re: Mantus Anchor|Just to be clear, the Mantus doesn't have any moving parts, four bolts are used to hold the shank to the fluke, which allows the anchor to be disassembled and stored flat. This seems like an interesting way to be able to store a big storm anchor in a small space. Darren At 08:50 AM 27/03/2013, you wrote: > > >I was running a large powerboat from maine to >florida and back for years and had a real CQR on >the bow and used it for a few years and it was >ok. It was replaced with a delta of the same >size and the difference was astounding. > >much shorter set and never had to re anchor as had to with the plow. >did not seem to foul. >This anchor does not have any moving parts and >gizmos. I don't like my anchor depending on pins or bolts or sliding anything. >mike > | 29984|29984|2013-03-28 00:24:44|shaneduncan206@yahoo.com|Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mantus Anchor|I agree I have a kick ass over sized Bruce on my BS 31 as a main but it would be nice to have a Mantua tucked away. It gets pretty windy on the west coast of Australia sent from my Telstra NEXTG™ handset ----- Reply message ----- From: "Darren Bos" To: Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mantus Anchor Date: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 11:30 AM Just to be clear, the Mantus doesn't have any moving parts, four bolts are used to hold the shank to the fluke, which allows the anchor to be disassembled and stored flat. This seems like an interesting way to be able to store a big storm anchor in a small space. Darren At 08:50 AM 27/03/2013, you wrote: > > >I was running a large powerboat from maine to >florida and back for years and had a real CQR on >the bow and used it for a few years and it was >ok. It was replaced with a delta of the same >size and the difference was astounding. > >much shorter set and never had to re anchor as had to with the plow. >did not seem to foul. >This anchor does not have any moving parts and >gizmos. I don't like my anchor depending on pins or bolts or sliding anything. >mike > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 29985|29956|2013-03-28 09:18:38|m riley|Re: Mantus Anchor|it does not take much imagination to see a large rock jammed into the hoop rendering the anchor useless. how about a big gob of kelp in the same spot? over 600 real world anchorages on the east coast without one reset on the delta. any equivalent data on the mantus? mike| 29986|29980|2013-03-28 11:57:54|Donal|Re: Roller furling with 7/8 external track|The finest roller furling system I've seen is hardly ever mentioned in the boating press: Reef Rite http://www.reefrite.co.nz/ It has the benefit of either roller furling, or use it like a hanked on sail with the slugs. It has two slots, so you could drop your working jib but leave it in the slot and raise a drifter in the other slot. Etc. It wouldn't work with our housing bowsprit, or I'd have one aboard. And beautifully machined. donal --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > You will get bad chafe on the sail from the slides when it is rolled up > or reefed. | 29987|29980|2013-03-28 14:53:43|Paul Wilson|Re: Roller furling with 7/8 external track|The reefrite is the one I was thinking about when I said the only roller furler with slides I have seen used very small slugs. They hardly protrude from the extrusion. A friend of mine had one on his old boat. He had some problems with the webbing that attaches the slides chafing. It is not a big deal but he had to resew the slides once in awhile. My favorite reefer is the Famet. It is big, clunky and relatively heavy but very simple and tough. I bought mine used over 20 years ago. It was probably 20 years old then. Zero maintenance other than rinsing it once in awhile and changing a halyard once. With it's internal halyard, there are no top and bottom bearings under tension to go bad. It has two slots. I have never done it, but it would be possible to fly two genoas wing on wing. Brent's roller furling design is basically one of them. If I couldn't find a used Famet, I would build one of his design. http://www.pearson35.com/projects/famet_reefuri.htm I don't see why a cruising boat would raise and lower a roller furling genoa. In my experience, nobody does that so it must be a racing thing. The only time anyone lowered and removed their genoa was when a cyclone was coming and they wanted to get rid of the extra windage of a rolled up sail. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 29/03/2013 4:57 a.m., Donal wrote: > > The finest roller furling system I've seen is hardly ever mentioned in > the boating press: > > Reef Rite > > http://www.reefrite.co.nz/ > > It has the benefit of either roller furling, or use it like a hanked > on sail with the slugs. It has two slots, so you could drop your > working jib but leave it in the slot and raise a drifter in the other > slot. Etc. > > It wouldn't work with our housing bowsprit, or I'd have one aboard. > And beautifully machined. > > donal > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > You will get bad chafe on the sail from the slides when it is rolled up > > or reefed. > > | 29988|29941|2013-03-28 15:19:18|wild_explorer|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Well... I tried to set forwarding service with that company... It looks OK at first (good website, upfront prices, friendly staff when you call, etc). Service for Merchant Marines was fitting me just fine from my point of view. I asked over the phone if I can pay with personal check and got respond "No problem"! So, I sent personal check (for deposit and service) and sign-up form to the company. And that where things got sour.... First, when I called, clerk could not find my check. Finally manager found it. Then I had to talk to a person who runs the company. After I answered the questions what I need (very limited forwarding service and why I do not want to set an account with credit card), I was told that this company is not interested in providing service to me. I understand that they have the right "to refuse service to anyone", but it was completely opposite what I read about this company in many reviews ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "R. Jason Adams" wrote: > > Hello, > > Check out http://www.sbimailservice.com/ > > We used them while cruising and the service was great. It's such a nice > service that we kept our mail going there after we returned. > | 29989|29989|2013-03-28 19:11:09|nvanreng|sitka spruce mast/boom available|I have a 12-foot sitka spruce mast (in North Vancouver, British Columbia). It would be suitable for a cat boat or as a boom. It is about 12 inches in circumference and roughly 5-6 inches in diameter. Can make photo available. Was left by my late husband who came with a crew of nine on a sailboat from Tasmania to San Francisco. However, this mast had nothing to do with that trip except for the fact that he acquired it after moving to North Vancouver. Would be sold to best offer.| 29990|29980|2013-03-28 19:18:44|brentswain38|Re: Roller furling with 7/8 external track|The point loads of slides put a far greater strain on the halyard and need a far stronger luff tension than supporting the sail full length with a luff rope. With a rope luff, I just sew the rope to the head then cut it above the stitching, and heat seal it. This gives you a rope end to feed into the luff groove. Hammer the grommets a whole lot flatter so they fit easily in the luff grove. With point loading, you would have to put a lot more slides on, much closer together. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "MichaelF" wrote: > > What are your thoughts on using 7/8 external sail track on the roller furling pipe. It also would be easier to find hank on sails and add slides with webbing. Ive got about 50 ft of it, can anyone see any problems with this. > | 29991|29980|2013-03-28 19:22:29|brentswain38|Re: Roller furling with 7/8 external track|Commercially made luff tape is tiny, and much more prone to pull out of the slot. I find a modified luff rope is far more reliable, simpler and cheaper to deal with. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > You will get bad chafe on the sail from the slides when it is rolled up > or reefed. I have seen roller furling using slides but they are very > small slugs and hardly protrude from the extrusion. I am not sure how > much chafe there is long term or really the point. It seems to me a sail > supported throughout its length is stronger and less prone to problems > than one with point loading. > > If you get the right size roller genoa, you will find you rarely change > it or remove it on a cruising boat. With a good genoa, you can roller > reef it about 20% and it will still maintain a decent shape. If you need > to go smaller than that, I roll it in all the way and go with staysail > alone and still get lots of drive. For very light winds, you can use > flying sails like cruising spinnakers if you are really keen. > > You can take hank on sails and convert them to roller furling but it > gets expensive. You buy the right luff tape and have it sewn on but by > the time you also add the UV sun strip it will add a lot to the cost. It > is normally better to find a used roller furling sail with a good UV > strip and then only change the luff tape if needed. > > Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 28/03/2013 6:27 a.m., MichaelF wrote: > > > > What are your thoughts on using 7/8 external sail track on the roller > > furling pipe. It also would be easier to find hank on sails and add > > slides with webbing. Ive got about 50 ft of it, can anyone see any > > problems with this. > > > > > | 29992|29941|2013-03-28 19:31:02|brentswain38|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|In Canada , as long as a boat is under 10 HP or 15 tones ,neither registration nor license is required . In fact, no paper work at all is required. The boat doesn't have to even exist on paper.I only licensed my boat when I was ready to head offshore. Otherwise I never would have. Without federal registry it is impossible to get a lien to stick to a boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Do you mean "Do not title your boat"? > > I do not think that it is possible to get away without any type of registration - you will not be able to get insurance for the boat. Some states require registration only - without titling (like AK). Even if you only register your boat, there is a record it is yours and subject to a possible lien as I understand. > > It could be a problem to prove (I mean quickly) that the boat is yours as well. > > It might be a problem to sail in International waters. > > USCG registration is different as I understand. It is federal level - similar to a title accepted in all states. > > P.S. I agree, you need to think about worth case scenario... If your boat is accessible to law enforcement, it is easy to file lien as well. For example, you did not pay someone for documented work (for hire) done on your boat. > P.S.S. As long as your boat is not arrested or confiscated, you will be able to use it. Not sure if court will allow to take your boat away if it is the only place you live in (need to do more research). > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > Do not document your boats.  With documentation your boat becomes lienable property.  Once a judgement has been entered against you, filing a lien is very easy.   State registration is mostly permission to use State waterways and a revenue enhancer for the State, it is not a title to boat property. > > > | 29993|29941|2013-03-29 01:47:35|Neil Ramsey|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Did you go with federal registration or just provincial licence? On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 4:30 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > In Canada , as long as a boat is under 10 HP or 15 tones ,neither > registration nor license is required . In fact, no paper work at all is > required. The boat doesn't have to even exist on paper.I only licensed my > boat when I was ready to head offshore. Otherwise I never would have. > Without federal registry it is impossible to get a lien to stick to a boat. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" > wrote: > > > > Do you mean "Do not title your boat"? > > > > I do not think that it is possible to get away without any type of > registration - you will not be able to get insurance for the boat. Some > states require registration only - without titling (like AK). Even if you > only register your boat, there is a record it is yours and subject to a > possible lien as I understand. > > > > It could be a problem to prove (I mean quickly) that the boat is yours > as well. > > > > It might be a problem to sail in International waters. > > > > USCG registration is different as I understand. It is federal level - > similar to a title accepted in all states. > > > > P.S. I agree, you need to think about worth case scenario... If your > boat is accessible to law enforcement, it is easy to file lien as well. For > example, you did not pay someone for documented work (for hire) done on > your boat. > > P.S.S. As long as your boat is not arrested or confiscated, you will be > able to use it. Not sure if court will allow to take your boat away if it > is the only place you live in (need to do more research). > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > Do not document your boats.� With documentation your boat becomes > lienable property.� Once a judgement has been entered against you,� filing > a� lien is very easy.� � State registration is� mostly permission to use > State waterways and a revenue enhancer for the� State,� it is not a title > to boat property. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29994|29941|2013-03-29 16:59:00|brentswain38|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|Provincial license. No point in g federal registry. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Neil Ramsey wrote: > > Did you go with federal registration or just provincial licence? > > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 4:30 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > In Canada , as long as a boat is under 10 HP or 15 tones ,neither > > registration nor license is required . In fact, no paper work at all is > > required. The boat doesn't have to even exist on paper.I only licensed my > > boat when I was ready to head offshore. Otherwise I never would have. > > Without federal registry it is impossible to get a lien to stick to a boat. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" > > wrote: > > > > > > Do you mean "Do not title your boat"? > > > > > > I do not think that it is possible to get away without any type of > > registration - you will not be able to get insurance for the boat. Some > > states require registration only - without titling (like AK). Even if you > > only register your boat, there is a record it is yours and subject to a > > possible lien as I understand. > > > > > > It could be a problem to prove (I mean quickly) that the boat is yours > > as well. > > > > > > It might be a problem to sail in International waters. > > > > > > USCG registration is different as I understand. It is federal level - > > similar to a title accepted in all states. > > > > > > P.S. I agree, you need to think about worth case scenario... If your > > boat is accessible to law enforcement, it is easy to file lien as well. For > > example, you did not pay someone for documented work (for hire) done on > > your boat. > > > P.S.S. As long as your boat is not arrested or confiscated, you will be > > able to use it. Not sure if court will allow to take your boat away if it > > is the only place you live in (need to do more research). > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee wrote: > > > > > > > > Do not document your boats. With documentation your boat becomes > > lienable property. Once a judgement has been entered against you, filing > > a lien is very easy.  State registration is mostly permission to use > > State waterways and a revenue enhancer for the State, it is not a title > > to boat property. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 29995|29995|2013-03-30 01:01:20|wild_explorer|Anchor winch with gear on a drum|Walking by, I saw interesting plastic drum-type compost tumbler, which idea could be used for making Anchor Winch. http://www.compostmania.com/Compact-Compost-Tumbler-with-Gear-Driven-Crank-image.png I know, Brent's winch is simple enough... And this idea may need some modifications... But it looks like it might be easy made from metal and gives good mechanical advantage. Bigger drum has some benefit of keeping steel wire "uncoiled" (there is Min drum diameter for certain wires) and has more capacity.| 29996|29995|2013-03-30 14:32:19|brentswain38|Re: Anchor winch with gear on a drum|Far too flimsy. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Walking by, I saw interesting plastic drum-type compost tumbler, which idea could be used for making Anchor Winch. > > http://www.compostmania.com/Compact-Compost-Tumbler-with-Gear-Driven-Crank-image.png > > I know, Brent's winch is simple enough... And this idea may need some modifications... But it looks like it might be easy made from metal and gives good mechanical advantage. Bigger drum has some benefit of keeping steel wire "uncoiled" (there is Min drum diameter for certain wires) and has more capacity. > | 29997|29995|2013-03-30 16:53:37|wild_explorer|Re: Anchor winch with gear on a drum|Yep, on the picture it is flimsy, but it is a compost tumbler. Picture is to get the idea about the gear. Need to redesign a little to make gear's support suitable for anchor winch. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Far too flimsy. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Walking by, I saw interesting plastic drum-type compost tumbler, which idea could be used for making Anchor Winch. > > > > http://www.compostmania.com/Compact-Compost-Tumbler-with-Gear-Driven-Crank-image.png > > > > I know, Brent's winch is simple enough... And this idea may need some modifications... But it looks like it might be easy made from metal and gives good mechanical advantage. Bigger drum has some benefit of keeping steel wire "uncoiled" (there is Min drum diameter for certain wires) and has more capacity. > > > | 29998|29932|2013-03-30 22:44:14|Gord Schnell|Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100|Have you sold all your 55100? Gord On 2013-03-26, at 1:40 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 wrote: > > Five liters per set. I have 45 gallons plus hardener. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > 5 litres wont cover much. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > > > I am going to have paint left over-enough to do a boat. If anyone needs paint, let me know. This is a two part paint in four liter can+1 liter can hardener so 5 liters combined for $100 USD. Sorry but I only have one color-gray. PM me if interested. Thx.Andy > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any experience with Hempels Poly enamel 55100? It's a 2 part polyurethane rated for marine environments. Is it tricky to apply? Does it bond well w/ coal tar base coats, etc,etc???? More info here: > > > > > > > > http://www.hempel.com/en/products/hempathane-enamel-55100 > > > > > > > > Thx.Andy > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 29999|29995|2013-03-31 05:53:11|mauro gonzaga|Re: Anchor winch with gear on a drum|Need to redesign a little?? You can keep the idea and design it, but it wouldn't be different from the BS one. Mauro ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 9:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch with gear on a drum   Yep, on the picture it is flimsy, but it is a compost tumbler. Picture is to get the idea about the gear. Need to redesign a little to make gear's support suitable for anchor winch. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Far too flimsy. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Walking by, I saw interesting plastic drum-type compost tumbler, which idea could be used for making Anchor Winch. > > > > http://www.compostmania.com/Compact-Compost-Tumbler-with-Gear-Driven-Crank-image.png > > > > I know, Brent's winch is simple enough... And this idea may need some modifications... But it looks like it might be easy made from metal and gives good mechanical advantage. Bigger drum has some benefit of keeping steel wire "uncoiled" (there is Min drum diameter for certain wires) and has more capacity. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30000|29932|2013-03-31 09:49:22|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100|No. I bought an open pallet that was left over from an industrial project last summer. I need to keep enough to paint my boats but I will have an excess that I can sell. Thx.Andy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Have you sold all your 55100? > Gord > > On 2013-03-26, at 1:40 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 wrote: > > > > > Five liters per set. I have 45 gallons plus hardener. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > 5 litres wont cover much. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > > > > > I am going to have paint left over-enough to do a boat. If anyone needs paint, let me know. This is a two part paint in four liter can+1 liter can hardener so 5 liters combined for $100 USD. Sorry but I only have one color-gray. PM me if interested. Thx.Andy > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any experience with Hempels Poly enamel 55100? It's a 2 part polyurethane rated for marine environments. Is it tricky to apply? Does it bond well w/ coal tar base coats, etc,etc???? More info here: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hempel.com/en/products/hempathane-enamel-55100 > > > > > > > > > > Thx.Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > |