30001|29995|2013-03-31 16:11:52|haidan|Re: Anchor winch with gear on a drum|Check out a hand crank or belt driven cement mixer, same deal slightly different orientation, I think you'd have trouble making it free wheel and the gearing ratio would be just way to much much for anyone to handle for any decent rode without some sort giant cog to crank over.| 30002|29995|2013-03-31 16:59:31|wild_explorer|Re: Anchor winch with gear on a drum|From "easy to make" point of view, the main disadvantage of that compost tumbler is "internal gear" (inward facing gear track). If it changed to face outward, it would not be much different from regular hand-cranked winch (with gears/crank-handle) or modified Brent's (with lever). Looks like the idea is not worth of troubles ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > Check out a hand crank or belt driven cement mixer, same deal slightly different orientation, I think you'd have trouble making it free wheel and the gearing ratio would be just way to much much for anyone to handle for any decent rode without some sort giant cog to crank over. > | 30003|29995|2013-03-31 17:07:09|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchor winch with gear on a drum|The single lever on to a gear works well and is robust and simple. You get power by using a long handle but can also choke up on the handle when you want more speed. Sometimes getting the gear in fast is important like when you are drifting back on to a beach or rock and trying to do it all by yourself. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 1/04/2013 9:59 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > From "easy to make" point of view, the main disadvantage of that > compost tumbler is "internal gear" (inward facing gear track). If it > changed to face outward, it would not be much different from regular > hand-cranked winch (with gears/crank-handle) or modified Brent's (with > lever). > > Looks like the idea is not worth of troubles ;) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "haidan" wrote: > > > > Check out a hand crank or belt driven cement mixer, same deal > slightly different orientation, I think you'd have trouble making it > free wheel and the gearing ratio would be just way to much much for > anyone to handle for any decent rode without some sort giant cog to > crank over. > > > > | 30004|29755|2013-04-02 17:08:41|mauro gonzaga|Re: steel boat solidity|Apparently origami hull is easy to start. Having no design the shape of floors and engine bed should be drawn by proper template taken in situ? No transverse structure/frame? Mauro [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30005|29755|2013-04-02 22:09:50|brentswain38|Re: steel boat solidity|The only transverse structure are angles from chine to the edge of the water tank between the keels,on twin keelers only, to support the twin keels. the front engine web, and skeg webs. The curve of hull plates gives far more structural strength than transverse frames ever would, without creating hard points for the plate to bend and tear against. The trend to put in a lot of transverse frames comes from those applying two dimensional thinking to a three dimensional object. Some designers are incapable of visualizing the stresses on a hull in three dimensions, simultaneously, or the resistance to that stress which a complex shape such as a hull and decks structure is capable of. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Apparently origami hull is easy to start. Having no design the shape of floors and engine bed should be drawn by proper template taken in situ? No transverse structure/frame? > Mauro > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30006|29755|2013-04-02 22:13:45|brentswain38|Re: steel boat solidity|One can get an approximation of the engine web from the lines drawing, but fine tuning in the finished hull is always a good idea. I could take a pattern off an existing hull, and it would be accurate for any hull made from the same patterns, but would it be worth the effort when it only takes a simple pattern to make one for any hull? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The only transverse structure are angles from chine to the edge of the water tank between the keels,on twin keelers only, to support the twin keels. the front engine web, and skeg webs. The curve of hull plates gives far more structural strength than transverse frames ever would, without creating hard points for the plate to bend and tear against. The trend to put in a lot of transverse frames comes from those applying two dimensional thinking to a three dimensional object. Some designers are incapable of visualizing the stresses on a hull in three dimensions, simultaneously, or the resistance to that stress which a complex shape such as a hull and decks structure is capable of. . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > Apparently origami hull is easy to start. Having no design the shape of floors and engine bed should be drawn by proper template taken in situ? No transverse structure/frame? > > Mauro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 30007|30007|2013-04-03 00:42:10|badpirate36|mounting hardware/dbl mainsheet|I'm going to have some pads welded onto the combings of my aluminium BS/36 for my winches. I would like to know if it is necesary to weld pads onto the pilot house for the double mainsheet attachments, or is the curved pilothose strong enough (with proper backing) to suport the mainsheet. I have read that the double mainsheet system works best(less boom vang needed) if they are approx. two feet apart. But what about providing auxilary attachments a further 2' out at the edge of the pilot house, and down on the railing for broad reaching. How far forward should a preventer attchment be. Thanx Tom| 30008|30008|2013-04-03 00:51:08|badpirate36|Hard dodger|I would like a hard dodger and a bimini for my aluminium BS/36. Cause it rains alot here on the BC coast. I made a mock-up out of plywood this week(posted). It's awfully big! But it provides standing room in the cockpit and I could make the windows removeable to cut down on windage when necesary. I'd be interested in what the group has to say about my design or hard/canvas dodgers in general. Thanx Tom| 30009|30008|2013-04-03 01:51:05|badpirate36|Re: Hard dodger|I failed to mention the hard dodger's final version will be made of aluminium and welded to the pilot house. Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > I would like a hard dodger and a bimini for my aluminium BS/36. Cause it rains alot here on the BC coast. I made a mock-up out of plywood this week(posted). It's awfully big! But it provides standing room in the cockpit and I could make the windows removeable to cut down on windage when necesary. I'd be interested in what the group has to say about my design or hard/canvas dodgers in general. > Thanx > Tom > | 30010|30008|2013-04-03 02:49:05|badpirate36|Re: Hard dodger|The final version of the hard dodger will be aluminium welded to the pilothouse. Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > I would like a hard dodger and a bimini for my aluminium BS/36. Cause it rains alot here on the BC coast. I made a mock-up out of plywood this week(posted). It's awfully big! But it provides standing room in the cockpit and I could make the windows removeable to cut down on windage when necesary. I'd be interested in what the group has to say about my design or hard/canvas dodgers in general. > Thanx > Tom > | 30011|30008|2013-04-03 16:18:31|haidan|Re: Hard dodger|That's a pretty gargantuan dodger, a lot of large flat sides to push through the wind. I've thought about putting a dodger over my pilot house just so I don't have to close the door when it rains but I'd make it way shorter than that one, I don't think I'd spend that much time standing right next to the companion way. Usually I'm sitting near the stern at the tiller or if it's real bad weather I go inside the pilot house and close the door. How high up is your boom from the deck? you sure you have enough room to have that boom fly across in a crash jibe with out taking out the dodger? I think it would look better if the height of the dodger was closer to the height of the pilothouse from the trunk cabin and maybe sweep the front wall forward a bit more, it'll give you more protected room on the pilot house roof under the dodger to toss things into. Silas Crosby's has pretty nice proportions to it's dodger that tend to blend into the boat fairly well, you hardly even notice it despite the fact that it's bare aluminium on painted steel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > The final version of the hard dodger will be aluminium welded to the pilothouse. > Tom > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > I would like a hard dodger and a bimini for my aluminium BS/36. Cause it rains alot here on the BC coast. I made a mock-up out of plywood this week(posted). It's awfully big! But it provides standing room in the cockpit and I could make the windows removeable to cut down on windage when necesary. I'd be interested in what the group has to say about my design or hard/canvas dodgers in general. > > Thanx > > Tom > > > | 30012|30012|2013-04-03 17:17:50|jpronk1|Cutting out patterns|I was looking at cutting out patterns to use when I get my plate in. First, would I be better off just laying out on the plate, or cutting out the hull shape in typar house rap? I have a roll of it, it is 8' wide and it doesn't shrink . James| 30013|30007|2013-04-03 18:03:01|Paul Wilson|Re: mounting hardware/dbl mainsheet|I use a double mainsheet similar to this and really like it. http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=8705&d=1354456892 It is a little slower than a single setup but you can position the boom where you want it. When the main is down you can tighten both sheets down against the topping lift and then the boom becomes totally immobilized. This is good when you work on the main and then there is also no need for a boom gallows or crutch. I would put the attachment points as far apart as possible. Mine are about 6 inches in from the cabin edge on 3 inch doubler pads. This has been no problem at all on my non-pilothouse version. If you have two spring cleats on the rail, they are a good attachment point for a vang/ preventer when the main is let way out. I just use a single line tied to a bail on the end of the boom. I never felt the need for a purchase. I let the main right out, cleat the line down and then pull the main back until it is tight on the vang/ preventer line. I hate normal boom vangs that go to the base of the mast. They are expensive, unnecessary and put a lot of stress on the boom and gooseneck. Any boom I have ever seen broken has been broken at the vang attachment point. The mechanical vangs can be quite noisy down below as they bang around in sloppy seas. Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 3/04/2013 5:42 p.m., badpirate36 wrote: > > I'm going to have some pads welded onto the combings of my aluminium > BS/36 for my winches. I would like to know if it is necesary to weld > pads onto the pilot house for the double mainsheet attachments, or is > the curved pilothose strong enough (with proper backing) to suport the > mainsheet. I have read that the double mainsheet system works > best(less boom vang needed) if they are approx. two feet apart. But > what about providing auxilary attachments a further 2' out at the edge > of the pilot house, and down on the railing for broad reaching. How > far forward should a preventer attchment be. > Thanx > Tom > > | 30014|30008|2013-04-03 18:13:10|Paul Wilson|Re: Hard dodger|I agree with Haidan, it looks kind of high and will be a lot of windage. I spend most of my time sitting but when I am standing I like to be able to see over the dodger. Standing on the cockpit floor, my dodger top is at nose height. I can quickly duck down when I see a wave top or spray coming my way. In bad weather, you won't be able to see through the windows when they get covered with salt spray. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 4/04/2013 9:18 a.m., haidan wrote: > > That's a pretty gargantuan dodger, a lot of large flat sides to push > through the wind. I've thought about putting a dodger over my pilot > house just so I don't have to close the door when it rains but I'd > make it way shorter than that one, I don't think I'd spend that much > time standing right next to the companion way. Usually I'm sitting > near the stern at the tiller or if it's real bad weather I go inside > the pilot house and close the door. > How high up is your boom from the deck? you sure you have enough room > to have that boom fly across in a crash jibe with out taking out the > dodger? I think it would look better if the height of the dodger was > closer to the height of the pilothouse from the trunk cabin and maybe > sweep the front wall forward a bit more, it'll give you more protected > room on the pilot house roof under the dodger to toss things into. > Silas Crosby's has pretty nice proportions to it's dodger that tend to > blend into the boat fairly well, you hardly even notice it despite the > fact that it's bare aluminium on painted steel. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "badpirate36" > wrote: > > > > The final version of the hard dodger will be aluminium welded to the > pilothouse. > > Tom > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > I would like a hard dodger and a bimini for my aluminium BS/36. > Cause it rains alot here on the BC coast. I made a mock-up out of > plywood this week(posted). It's awfully big! But it provides standing > room in the cockpit and I could make the windows removeable to cut > down on windage when necesary. I'd be interested in what the group has > to say about my design or hard/canvas dodgers in general. > > > Thanx > > > Tom > > > > > > > | 30015|30007|2013-04-03 18:38:43|James Pronk|Re: mounting hardware/dbl mainsheet|Thank you for the posting. Looks like a good set-up James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30016|30016|2013-04-04 00:49:49|Meademd|http://dragan.ca/dalibor/contact/uvoic.html|http://www.londonto.com/images/kjwrs.html meademd@... cGhvY2tpbmc%3D 4/4/2013 5:49:50 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30017|30017|2013-04-04 01:16:52|Jesse Taylor|Re: message|http://www.proactivebliss.com/kfqhvqij/tyehm.zj?lq Jesse Taylor 4/4/2013 6:16:50 AM khtsmovisusjcwhyvybknlrjzupmk rsfkj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30018|30008|2013-04-04 06:36:58|badpirate36|Re: Hard dodger|Haidan/Paul, Thanx for the replies. Gargantuan doesn't quite say it, before I cut the windows out and painted it grey, it looked humongous /.o) I wanted to stretch a bimini from the dodger to the radar arch that would allow standing head room in the cockpit, for bbq'in and walking about while at anchor. My sailmaker suggested raising the end of the boom to help keep it out of the water, so the boom height shouldn't be a problem. Increasing the forward slope of the dodger is a possibility however, I can't move it any farther forward as it would interfere with my mainsheet on the pilothouse. I never gave dirty windows any thought, cause I was going to add wipers, although I have made no plans to have sufficient electricity to run them /.o( After playing around with it for the last week the shape has started to grow on me. Although, I suppose there could be a real possibility that it's gargantuan size might try to broach me when running in a blow. Thanx again Undecided Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I agree with Haidan, it looks kind of high and will be a lot of windage. > I spend most of my time sitting but when I am standing I like to be able > to see over the dodger. Standing on the cockpit floor, my dodger top is > at nose height. I can quickly duck down when I see a wave top or spray > coming my way. In bad weather, you won't be able to see through the > windows when they get covered with salt spray. > > Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 4/04/2013 9:18 a.m., haidan wrote: > > > > That's a pretty gargantuan dodger, a lot of large flat sides to push > > through the wind. I've thought about putting a dodger over my pilot > > house just so I don't have to close the door when it rains but I'd > > make it way shorter than that one, I don't think I'd spend that much > > time standing right next to the companion way. Usually I'm sitting > > near the stern at the tiller or if it's real bad weather I go inside > > the pilot house and close the door. > > How high up is your boom from the deck? you sure you have enough room > > to have that boom fly across in a crash jibe with out taking out the > > dodger? I think it would look better if the height of the dodger was > > closer to the height of the pilothouse from the trunk cabin and maybe > > sweep the front wall forward a bit more, it'll give you more protected > > room on the pilot house roof under the dodger to toss things into. > > Silas Crosby's has pretty nice proportions to it's dodger that tend to > > blend into the boat fairly well, you hardly even notice it despite the > > fact that it's bare aluminium on painted steel. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "badpirate36" > > wrote: > > > > > > The final version of the hard dodger will be aluminium welded to the > > pilothouse. > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > > > I would like a hard dodger and a bimini for my aluminium BS/36. > > Cause it rains alot here on the BC coast. I made a mock-up out of > > plywood this week(posted). It's awfully big! But it provides standing > > room in the cockpit and I could make the windows removeable to cut > > down on windage when necesary. I'd be interested in what the group has > > to say about my design or hard/canvas dodgers in general. > > > > Thanx > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > | 30019|30007|2013-04-04 07:12:41|badpirate36|Re: mounting hardware/dbl mainsheet|Thanx for the reply Paul, and for confirming the extra thickness at the pad eyes locations. I do not know what spring cleats are and By mechanical vangs, do you mean solid vangs? I found some older origami posts suggesting the base of the double main sheets be limited to 24", although when searching the web for more examples I have found most seem to prefer a wider base. There was a picture somewhere on this site of home made blocks for a dbl mainsheet. Rather than two separate mainsheets on one bale, it was a continuis line sharing a large 4 sheave block under the boom. I believe it was posted a couple of years ago. I haven't been able to stumble onto it. Does anybody know where it might be hiding? Thanx again Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I use a double mainsheet similar to this and really like it. > > http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=8705&d=1354456892 > > > It is a little slower than a single setup but you can position the boom > where you want it. When the main is down you can tighten both sheets > down against the topping lift and then the boom becomes totally > immobilized. This is good when you work on the main and then there is > also no need for a boom gallows or crutch. I would put the attachment > points as far apart as possible. Mine are about 6 inches in from the > cabin edge on 3 inch doubler pads. This has been no problem at all on my > non-pilothouse version. > > If you have two spring cleats on the rail, they are a good attachment > point for a vang/ preventer when the main is let way out. I just use a > single line tied to a bail on the end of the boom. I never felt the need > for a purchase. I let the main right out, cleat the line down and then > pull the main back until it is tight on the vang/ preventer line. I hate > normal boom vangs that go to the base of the mast. They are expensive, > unnecessary and put a lot of stress on the boom and gooseneck. Any boom > I have ever seen broken has been broken at the vang attachment point. > The mechanical vangs can be quite noisy down below as they bang around > in sloppy seas. > > Cheers, Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 3/04/2013 5:42 p.m., badpirate36 wrote: > > > > I'm going to have some pads welded onto the combings of my aluminium > > BS/36 for my winches. I would like to know if it is necesary to weld > > pads onto the pilot house for the double mainsheet attachments, or is > > the curved pilothose strong enough (with proper backing) to suport the > > mainsheet. I have read that the double mainsheet system works > > best(less boom vang needed) if they are approx. two feet apart. But > > what about providing auxilary attachments a further 2' out at the edge > > of the pilot house, and down on the railing for broad reaching. How > > far forward should a preventer attchment be. > > Thanx > > Tom > > > > > | 30020|30007|2013-04-04 15:10:56|Paul Wilson|Re: mounting hardware/dbl mainsheet|Mechanical vang is a solid vang either a hollow tube with rope purchase inside the tube or hydraulic ram. Either way, the pins and castings on the attachment points often wear. You then you get them banging around due to the slop in the fittings. Vangs will often use rope for the down tension if they aren't hydraulic. You need to use non-stretch rope with them and then the rope creaks and groans under the strain. Spring cleats should be on every boat. I can't believe they build boats without them but it seems to be the norm. I tried to find a good picture but all I found is this... http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/WestAdvisorView?langId=-1&storeId=11151&page=Dock-Lines If you look at the sailboat on the right of the picture they have spring lines rigged to a winch and a shroud. This is commonly done but there should be cleats located on the rail in about the same position (thirds). Cleats are better and stronger than tying to rigging or stanchions and you don't end up with chafe on the docklines as they pass over the rail or around hardware. Spring lines are good for stopping a boat when you come up to a dock and can help in close maneuvering. People will often use the bow line led back on the dock to brake the boat as you come alongside a dock but it tends to cause the bow to swing in to the dock if you are going too fast. If you use the rear spring line to brake the boat, it won't cause the bow to swing in and it is more convenient to reach if you are short handed. Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 5/04/2013 12:12 a.m., badpirate36 wrote: > > Thanx for the reply Paul, and for confirming the extra thickness at > the pad eyes locations. I do not know what spring cleats are and By > mechanical vangs, do you mean solid vangs? I found some older origami > posts suggesting the base of the double main sheets be limited to 24", > although when searching the web for more examples I have found most > seem to prefer a wider base. > > There was a picture somewhere on this site of home made blocks for a > dbl mainsheet. Rather than two separate mainsheets on one bale, it was > a continuis line sharing a large 4 sheave block under the boom. I > believe it was posted a couple of years ago. I haven't been able to > stumble onto it. Does anybody know where it might be hiding? > > Thanx again > > Tom > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I use a double mainsheet similar to this and really like it. > > > > > http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=8705&d=1354456892 > > > > > > > It is a little slower than a single setup but you can position the boom > > where you want it. When the main is down you can tighten both sheets > > down against the topping lift and then the boom becomes totally > > immobilized. This is good when you work on the main and then there is > > also no need for a boom gallows or crutch. I would put the attachment > > points as far apart as possible. Mine are about 6 inches in from the > > cabin edge on 3 inch doubler pads. This has been no problem at all > on my > > non-pilothouse version. > > > > If you have two spring cleats on the rail, they are a good attachment > > point for a vang/ preventer when the main is let way out. I just use a > > single line tied to a bail on the end of the boom. I never felt the > need > > for a purchase. I let the main right out, cleat the line down and then > > pull the main back until it is tight on the vang/ preventer line. I > hate > > normal boom vangs that go to the base of the mast. They are expensive, > > unnecessary and put a lot of stress on the boom and gooseneck. Any boom > > I have ever seen broken has been broken at the vang attachment point. > > The mechanical vangs can be quite noisy down below as they bang around > > in sloppy seas. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > > > On 3/04/2013 5:42 p.m., badpirate36 wrote: > > > > > > I'm going to have some pads welded onto the combings of my aluminium > > > BS/36 for my winches. I would like to know if it is necesary to weld > > > pads onto the pilot house for the double mainsheet attachments, or is > > > the curved pilothose strong enough (with proper backing) to suport > the > > > mainsheet. I have read that the double mainsheet system works > > > best(less boom vang needed) if they are approx. two feet apart. But > > > what about providing auxilary attachments a further 2' out at the > edge > > > of the pilot house, and down on the railing for broad reaching. How > > > far forward should a preventer attchment be. > > > Thanx > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > | 30021|30007|2013-04-04 15:25:49|brentswain38|Re: mounting hardware/dbl mainsheet|The wheelhouse top is plenty strong enough. I leave about 6 ft of line tied around my boom, which I tie to the handrail when reaching, then to the rail when reaching further off wind. On a dead run I tie it to the chain plates then pull the boom in to flatten the sail free of the shrouds. When tying it to the handrails I ease the boom off a bit, tie it down then ease the boom further till the line takes the entire load and the main sheet is slack. No need for a vang which gets in the way of dinghy stowage on the cabin top. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > I'm going to have some pads welded onto the combings of my aluminium BS/36 for my winches. I would like to know if it is necesary to weld pads onto the pilot house for the double mainsheet attachments, or is the curved pilothose strong enough (with proper backing) to suport the mainsheet. I have read that the double mainsheet system works best(less boom vang needed) if they are approx. two feet apart. But what about providing auxilary attachments a further 2' out at the edge of the pilot house, and down on the railing for broad reaching. How far forward should a preventer attchment be. > Thanx > Tom > | 30022|30008|2013-04-04 15:30:15|brentswain38|Re: Hard dodger|I use the wheelhouse in horizontal rain. For the vertical rain I have a canopy over the aft end of the cockpit. It is a flat horizontal sheet which is almost invisible from the side , and has zero windage . It also gives good shade in summer. Thus I haven't felt the need for a dodger. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > I would like a hard dodger and a bimini for my aluminium BS/36. Cause it rains alot here on the BC coast. I made a mock-up out of plywood this week(posted). It's awfully big! But it provides standing room in the cockpit and I could make the windows removeable to cut down on windage when necesary. I'd be interested in what the group has to say about my design or hard/canvas dodgers in general. > Thanx > Tom > | 30023|30008|2013-04-04 16:52:12|Larry Dale|Re: Hard dodger|Consider doing a hard dodger that is just high enough to sit under. Maybe the same height step as from the cabin top to the pilot house top with the same camber and windsheild curvature as the pilothouse. Then have a soft bimini over the rest of the cockpit that steps up again to standing height.The front of the bimini could have a window in it that attaches to the aft end of the hard dodger. See the picture of what I mean in the attachment.   ________________________________ From: badpirate36 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 6:36:56 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hard dodger Haidan/Paul, Thanx for the replies.  Gargantuan doesn't quite say it, before I cut the windows out and painted it grey, it looked humongous /.o) I wanted to stretch a bimini from the dodger to the radar arch that would allow standing head room in the cockpit, for bbq'in and walking about while at anchor. My sailmaker suggested raising the end of the boom to help keep it out of the water, so the boom height shouldn't be a problem. Increasing the forward slope of the dodger is a possibility however, I can't move it any farther forward as it would interfere with my mainsheet on the pilothouse. I never gave dirty windows any thought, cause I was going to add wipers, although I have made no plans to have sufficient electricity to run them /.o( After playing around with it for the last week the shape has started to grow on me. Although, I suppose there could be a real possibility that it's gargantuan size might try to broach me when running in a blow. Thanx again Undecided Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I agree with Haidan, it looks kind of high and will be a lot of windage. > I spend most of my time sitting but when I am standing I like to be able > to see over the dodger. Standing on the cockpit floor, my dodger top is > at nose height. I can quickly duck down when I see a wave top or spray > coming my way. In bad weather, you won't be able to see through the > windows when they get covered with salt spray. > > Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >  >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 4/04/2013 9:18 a.m., haidan wrote: > > > > That's a pretty gargantuan dodger, a lot of large flat sides to push > > through the wind. I've thought about putting a dodger over my pilot > > house just so I don't have to close the door when it rains but I'd > > make it way shorter than that one, I don't think I'd spend that much > > time standing right next to the companion way. Usually I'm sitting > > near the stern at the tiller or if it's real bad weather I go inside > > the pilot house and close the door. > > How high up is your boom from the deck? you sure you have enough room > > to have that boom fly across in a crash jibe with out taking out the > > dodger? I think it would look better if the height of the dodger was > > closer to the height of the pilothouse from the trunk cabin and maybe > > sweep the front wall forward a bit more, it'll give you more protected > > room on the pilot house roof under the dodger to toss things into. > > Silas Crosby's has pretty nice proportions to it's dodger that tend to > > blend into the boat fairly well, you hardly even notice it despite the > > fact that it's bare aluminium on painted steel. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "badpirate36" > > wrote: > > > > > > The final version of the hard dodger will be aluminium welded to the > > pilothouse. > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > > > > > I would like a hard dodger and a bimini for my aluminium BS/36. > > Cause it rains alot here on the BC coast. I made a mock-up out of > > plywood this week(posted). It's awfully big! But it provides standing > > room in the cockpit and I could make the windows removeable to cut > > down on windage when necesary. I'd be interested in what the group has > > to say about my design or hard/canvas dodgers in general. > > > > Thanx > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30024|30012|2013-04-04 20:14:02|brentswain38|Re: Cutting out patterns|For a one off, you may as well just lay it out on the plate. Use one side's cutouts as patterns for the other side. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > I was looking at cutting out patterns to use when I get my plate in. > First, would I be better off just laying out on the plate, or cutting out the hull shape in typar house rap? I have a roll of it, it is 8' wide and it doesn't shrink . > James > | 30025|30008|2013-04-04 20:16:52|brentswain38|Re: Hard dodger|A flat sheet, supported by the boom gallows stops rain from getting in the main hatch in calm weather. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I use the wheelhouse in horizontal rain. For the vertical rain I have a canopy over the aft end of the cockpit. It is a flat horizontal sheet which is almost invisible from the side , and has zero windage . It also gives good shade in summer. Thus I haven't felt the need for a dodger. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "badpirate36" wrote: > > > > I would like a hard dodger and a bimini for my aluminium BS/36. Cause it rains alot here on the BC coast. I made a mock-up out of plywood this week(posted). It's awfully big! But it provides standing room in the cockpit and I could make the windows removeable to cut down on windage when necesary. I'd be interested in what the group has to say about my design or hard/canvas dodgers in general. > > Thanx > > Tom > > > | 30026|29755|2013-04-04 23:10:12|wild_explorer|Re: steel boat solidity|Actually everything could be cut from template (or on CNC) for origami boat. As it was discussed earlier, if you fold a copy of origami-hull from the same template/pattern, other related templates will fit as well for another copy of origami-boat. I think, the Brent's main reason not to have all templates, is only because some people may change interior or use different engines. Making interior, you will put some transverse structure anyway (angles, wood strips, plywood, bulkheads, etc). It will be mounted on tabs instead of on transverse frames. Basically, transverse frames are needed only for thinner plates used for the hull of "regular" metal boat. Origami-boat is different - it uses thicker and curved shell (not flat plates). I like the feel of stability of 3/16" curved plate. 11ga (1/8 plate) looks too flexible for my liking. For example, flat bar used for the deck stiffeners has weight ~1.3Lb/ft. For deck section 2x10ft, it will be about 32Lb of extra weight for stiffeners. It is about 30% of the weight of the plate for this part! It still weight less than 3/16" plate, but you got the picture... Origami hull from 3/16" plate uses lighter longitudinals and it is much stronger structure (compare to a deck). As I know, some people had cut some parts for Brent-boat on CNC (after folding the hull and taking some measurements). I am cutting all my parts on CNC as I go (from 3D model) for my boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Apparently origami hull is easy to start. Having no design the shape of floors and engine bed should be drawn by proper template taken in situ? No transverse structure/frame? > Mauro | 30027|30008|2013-04-04 23:38:42|wild_explorer|Re: Hard dodger|What is the reason to have main hatch tilted forward instead of being vertical? I can understand if someone wants to reduce the height of pilothouse, but it will require sliding top in addition to main hatch. Main hatch design with cupola gives "standing headroom" for main hatch anyway... What is disadvantage having vertical main hatch? It does not raise pilothouse much - just cupola. It should not have big effect on windage.| 30028|30008|2013-04-05 00:01:40|Paul Wilson|Re: Hard dodger|Cabin entry aside, a tilted angle of about 10 or 15 degrees is much nicer to use as a back rest versus a vertical angle when you are sitting in the cockpit. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 5/04/2013 4:38 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > What is the reason to have main hatch tilted forward instead of being > vertical? I can understand if someone wants to reduce the height of > pilothouse, but it will require sliding top in addition to main hatch. > > Main hatch design with cupola gives "standing headroom" for main hatch > anyway... > > What is disadvantage having vertical main hatch? It does not raise > pilothouse much - just cupola. It should not have big effect on windage. > > | 30029|30008|2013-04-05 00:50:34|Kim|Re: Hard dodger|If the companionway bulkhead is tilted forward, and combined with the cupola, it means that a complicated and leak-prone sliding hatch on top can be discarded, and one does not have to "duck" when moving from the cabin to the cockpit, and vice-versa. Without the sliding hatch on top it's easier to make the boat watertight. And it works: on my boat moving through the companionway is as easy as walking through the door of a house. Also, as Paul has pointed out, a bonus is that the tilt forward is perfect for leaning back on if you're stretched out on a cockpit seat. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > What is the reason to have main hatch tilted forward instead of being vertical? I can understand if someone wants to reduce the height of pilothouse, but it will require sliding top in addition to main hatch. > > Main hatch design with cupola gives "standing headroom" for main hatch anyway... > > What is disadvantage having vertical main hatch? It does not raise pilothouse much - just cupola. It should not have big effect on windage. > | 30030|30007|2013-04-05 10:50:46|haidan|Re: mounting hardware/dbl mainsheet|Those blocks were mine, two double fiddle blocks on either side of the cabin and a triple one the boom. Originally both the fiddles had cam cleats on them so you could pull it in from either end but I realised that since they essentially did the same thing and one sheet was hidden by the door when it was open, that I only needed it to feed from one of the fiddles and so I just ran the starboard line and tied it to the boom which gives more purchase anyway. It doesn't let you centre the boom like it would with two separate sheets and blocks and someone gave me a nice curved track with a big heavy car on it that I'm gonna play with at some point. I'll put up some pictures of them if they aren't already > There was a picture somewhere on this site of home made blocks for a dbl mainsheet. Rather than two separate mainsheets on one bale, it was a continuis line sharing a large 4 sheave block under the boom. I believe it was posted a couple of years ago. I haven't been able to stumble onto it. Does anybody know where it might be hiding? > | 30031|30008|2013-04-05 11:19:14|wild_explorer|Re: Hard dodger|I understand the concept.... Tilted forward 15 deg pilothouse back with cupola gives about 20" horizontal entry clearance, which by other way would be accomplished by sliding top (it eliminates sliding top). This allows to lower height of pilothouse. I believe, that Brent designed watertight "combo" with a link to main hatch and "opening top" for easy operation. It allows to lower pilothouse even more. "Walking like through house' door" into PH is what I am trying to accomplish... I do not like "ducking" ;). I see some pros/cons with tilted forward PH back: Cons: - tilted forward back robs internal space of PH - it affects boat's look (+ or -) - 20" top's offset is a good gap (about 20x24") for water to get in (rain, wave) - need to push main hatch upward to open it Pros: - it gives some clearance to you head (you do not hit you head against the top of PH back when outside) - it gives some slope for following wave to go over PH - gives back rest to lean against when outside - allows to rest main hatch on PH back when open and keep it more secure (even if it is not locked) when closed. Anything else? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > If the companionway bulkhead is tilted forward, and combined with the cupola, it means that a complicated and leak-prone sliding hatch on top can be discarded, and one does not have to "duck" when moving from the cabin to the cockpit, and vice-versa. > > Without the sliding hatch on top it's easier to make the boat watertight. > > And it works: on my boat moving through the companionway is as easy as walking through the door of a house. > > Also, as Paul has pointed out, a bonus is that the tilt forward is perfect for leaning back on if you're stretched out on a cockpit seat. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. | 30032|30008|2013-04-05 15:22:26|brentswain38|Re: Hard dodger|I give her a 25 degree or more slope, which makes the fore and aft distance betwen the bottom of the opening and the top greater than it would have been with a vertical back and a sliding hatch, making it easier to get thru than a sliding hatch. The combination of a sliding hatch and drop boards is an extremely leaky, primitive and outdated arrangement. Having to disasemble and reasemble such a contraption every time you enter and leave a boat in bad weather is a huge pain in the ass, and potentially dangerous. A single aluminium door is far easier to deal with, and can be made as watertight as the lid on a pressure cooker, something which is impossible with a sliding hatch. It can be almost as light as a piece of cardboard, but I have seen some bolt enough decorative wood on to make it as heavy as a vault door, which can be dangerous. Gluing a single half inch layer of foam on is all you need. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > If the companionway bulkhead is tilted forward, and combined with the cupola, it means that a complicated and leak-prone sliding hatch on top can be discarded, and one does not have to "duck" when moving from the cabin to the cockpit, and vice-versa. > > Without the sliding hatch on top it's easier to make the boat watertight. > > And it works: on my boat moving through the companionway is as easy as walking through the door of a house. > > Also, as Paul has pointed out, a bonus is that the tilt forward is perfect for leaning back on if you're stretched out on a cockpit seat. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > What is the reason to have main hatch tilted forward instead of being vertical? I can understand if someone wants to reduce the height of pilothouse, but it will require sliding top in addition to main hatch. > > > > Main hatch design with cupola gives "standing headroom" for main hatch anyway... > > > > What is disadvantage having vertical main hatch? It does not raise pilothouse much - just cupola. It should not have big effect on windage. > > > | 30033|30012|2013-04-05 18:39:21|James Pronk|Re: Cutting out patterns|Thank you Brent. Just talk to the land owner were I am going to build, he wants to see Alex's video before I start building. James --- On Thu, 4/4/13, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting out patterns To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, April 4, 2013, 8:14 PM   For a one off, you may as well just lay it out on the plate. Use one side's cutouts as patterns for the other side. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > I was looking at cutting out patterns to use when I get my plate in. > First, would I be better off just laying out on the plate, or cutting out the hull shape in typar house rap? I have a roll of it, it is 8' wide and it doesn't shrink . > James > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30034|30012|2013-04-06 21:49:31|wild_explorer|Re: Cutting out patterns|James, are you going to build 36 or 40 footer? Are your plates primed or bare? P.S. Be careful to show Alex's video to the owner of the site where you plan to build your boat... He might decide to start his own project ;)| 30035|30008|2013-04-07 17:45:27|Paul Wilson|Re: Hard dodger|I have never had any problem at all with a conventional hatch. I have the option of doors or drop boards since I fitted both. The doors are what is normally used with the drop boards being a secure second option. The slider is nice to close when it is raining. It allows the doors to be left open and still get some ventilation. Likewise, in rough weather, I can leave a drop board in when there is the occasional wave while still leaving the rest of the hatch open. It is easy to crack the hatch open to have a look around. A single large door on an angled hatch would definitely be stronger, more secure, and much easier to build but I have found the conventional sliding hatch very convenient. If I roll over one day or I am attacked by pirates I might wish I had put the other type of door on :). Just saying.....Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 6/04/2013 8:22 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > I give her a 25 degree or more slope, which makes the fore and aft > distance betwen the bottom of the opening and the top greater than it > would have been with a vertical back and a sliding hatch, making it > easier to get thru than a sliding hatch. The combination of a sliding > hatch and drop boards is an extremely leaky, primitive and outdated > arrangement. Having to disasemble and reasemble such a contraption > every time you enter and leave a boat in bad weather is a huge pain in > the ass, and potentially dangerous. A single aluminium door is far > easier to deal with, and can be made as watertight as the lid on a > pressure cooker, something which is impossible with a sliding hatch. > It can be almost as light as a piece of cardboard, but I have seen > some bolt enough decorative wood on to make it as heavy as a vault > door, which can be dangerous. Gluing a single half inch layer of foam > on is all you need. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Kim" wrote: > > > > > > If the companionway bulkhead is tilted forward, and combined with > the cupola, it means that a complicated and leak-prone sliding hatch > on top can be discarded, and one does not have to "duck" when moving > from the cabin to the cockpit, and vice-versa. > > > > Without the sliding hatch on top it's easier to make the boat > watertight. > > > > And it works: on my boat moving through the companionway is as easy > as walking through the door of a house. > > > > Also, as Paul has pointed out, a bonus is that the tilt forward is > perfect for leaning back on if you're stretched out on a cockpit seat. > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "wild_explorer" > wrote: > > > > > > What is the reason to have main hatch tilted forward instead of > being vertical? I can understand if someone wants to reduce the height > of pilothouse, but it will require sliding top in addition to main hatch. > > > > > > Main hatch design with cupola gives "standing headroom" for main > hatch anyway... > > > > > > What is disadvantage having vertical main hatch? It does not raise > pilothouse much - just cupola. It should not have big effect on windage. > > > > > > > | 30036|30008|2013-04-07 18:51:18|Paul Wilson|Re: Hard dodger|Just to be clear....I am not sold on a conventional hatch. I just don't think it is all that bad, that's all. If I was doing it all again, I am not clear on which way I would go. If I was happy with the cabin angle and access, I would probably go with the single door and keep it simple. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 8/04/2013 9:43 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > I have never had any problem at all with a conventional hatch. I have > the option of doors or drop boards since I fitted both. The doors are > what is normally used with the drop boards being a secure second option. > The slider is nice to close when it is raining. It allows the doors to > be left open and still get some ventilation. Likewise, in rough weather, > I can leave a drop board in when there is the occasional wave while > still leaving the rest of the hatch open. It is easy to crack the hatch > open to have a look around. > > A single large door on an angled hatch would definitely be stronger, > more secure, and much easier to build but I have found the conventional > sliding hatch very convenient. If I roll over one day or I am attacked > by pirates I might wish I had put the other type of door on:). > > Just saying.....Paul > >> >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. | 30037|30008|2013-04-08 14:19:30|wild_explorer|Re: Hard dodger|On Brent's original low PH, single main hatch make sense for several reasons: - even big tilt angle of PH's back does not change the look of PH much - easier operation compare to conventional hatch (one door vs door&slider) I plan to have raised "fisherman type" PH and it changes things: - tilted forward PH back does not look so good anymore. It asks for tilted back front windows. It gives better look (yacht type), but loses benefit of protecting windows from rain. And robs even more space in PH. - for looking around/ventilation it is easier to make CL hatch on top of PH. Sliding hatch may work with some modification for lifting, but looks like not worth of troubles. - all good looking "fisherman" PH have vertical PH's backdoors. No need for a dodger, just some 2-3" extension with SS pipe trim. It will protect door opening from vertical rain. Additionally, door frame itself may protect door opening from rain. - as I pointed out above, tilted forward PH back does not look good on raised "fisherman" PH. Just try to draw it and see. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > The slider is nice to close when it is raining. It allows the doors to > > be left open and still get some ventilation. Likewise, in rough weather, > > I can leave a drop board in when there is the occasional wave while > > still leaving the rest of the hatch open. It is easy to crack the hatch > > open to have a look around. | 30038|30008|2013-04-08 15:14:54|brentswain38|Re: Hard dodger|My first boat had a sliding hatch and dropboards. I found it anything but convenient. The single door was far more convenient, and a huge improvement . I would never go back to a sliding hatch, just as one would never buy a house who's only access was thru such a complex contraption. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I have never had any problem at all with a conventional hatch. I have > the option of doors or drop boards since I fitted both. The doors are > what is normally used with the drop boards being a secure second option. > The slider is nice to close when it is raining. It allows the doors to > be left open and still get some ventilation. Likewise, in rough weather, > I can leave a drop board in when there is the occasional wave while > still leaving the rest of the hatch open. It is easy to crack the hatch > open to have a look around. > > A single large door on an angled hatch would definitely be stronger, > more secure, and much easier to build but I have found the conventional > sliding hatch very convenient. If I roll over one day or I am attacked > by pirates I might wish I had put the other type of door on :). > > Just saying.....Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 6/04/2013 8:22 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > I give her a 25 degree or more slope, which makes the fore and aft > > distance betwen the bottom of the opening and the top greater than it > > would have been with a vertical back and a sliding hatch, making it > > easier to get thru than a sliding hatch. The combination of a sliding > > hatch and drop boards is an extremely leaky, primitive and outdated > > arrangement. Having to disasemble and reasemble such a contraption > > every time you enter and leave a boat in bad weather is a huge pain in > > the ass, and potentially dangerous. A single aluminium door is far > > easier to deal with, and can be made as watertight as the lid on a > > pressure cooker, something which is impossible with a sliding hatch. > > It can be almost as light as a piece of cardboard, but I have seen > > some bolt enough decorative wood on to make it as heavy as a vault > > door, which can be dangerous. Gluing a single half inch layer of foam > > on is all you need. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Kim" wrote: > > > > > > > > > If the companionway bulkhead is tilted forward, and combined with > > the cupola, it means that a complicated and leak-prone sliding hatch > > on top can be discarded, and one does not have to "duck" when moving > > from the cabin to the cockpit, and vice-versa. > > > > > > Without the sliding hatch on top it's easier to make the boat > > watertight. > > > > > > And it works: on my boat moving through the companionway is as easy > > as walking through the door of a house. > > > > > > Also, as Paul has pointed out, a bonus is that the tilt forward is > > perfect for leaning back on if you're stretched out on a cockpit seat. > > > > > > Cheers ... > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "wild_explorer" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > What is the reason to have main hatch tilted forward instead of > > being vertical? I can understand if someone wants to reduce the height > > of pilothouse, but it will require sliding top in addition to main hatch. > > > > > > > > Main hatch design with cupola gives "standing headroom" for main > > hatch anyway... > > > > > > > > What is disadvantage having vertical main hatch? It does not raise > > pilothouse much - just cupola. It should not have big effect on windage. > > > > > > > > > > > > | 30039|30008|2013-04-08 15:18:12|brentswain38|Re: Hard dodger|The small canopy on the boom gallows gives one the same rain protection as a vertical back, without the disadvantages. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > On Brent's original low PH, single main hatch make sense for several reasons: > > - even big tilt angle of PH's back does not change the look of PH much > - easier operation compare to conventional hatch (one door vs door&slider) > > I plan to have raised "fisherman type" PH and it changes things: > - tilted forward PH back does not look so good anymore. It asks for tilted back front windows. It gives better look (yacht type), but loses benefit of protecting windows from rain. And robs even more space in PH. > - for looking around/ventilation it is easier to make CL hatch on top of PH. Sliding hatch may work with some modification for lifting, but looks like not worth of troubles. > - all good looking "fisherman" PH have vertical PH's backdoors. No need for a dodger, just some 2-3" extension with SS pipe trim. It will protect door opening from vertical rain. Additionally, door frame itself may protect door opening from rain. > - as I pointed out above, tilted forward PH back does not look good on raised "fisherman" PH. Just try to draw it and see. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > The slider is nice to close when it is raining. It allows the doors to > > > be left open and still get some ventilation. Likewise, in rough weather, > > > I can leave a drop board in when there is the occasional wave while > > > still leaving the rest of the hatch open. It is easy to crack the hatch > > > open to have a look around. > | 30040|30040|2013-04-08 15:20:41|brentswain38|Foredeck firring strip tabs|Who says you cant teach an old dog new tricks? I just realized that one can save some time and trouble by welding the tabs for the foredeck firing strips on, before installing the foredeck, while it is on it's back on a workbench.| 30041|30040|2013-04-08 16:48:39|wild_explorer|Re: Foredeck firring strip tabs|Brent, I wish you posted this information several days earlier... I already sent assembled foredeck and side decks for blasting and priming ;(( Well... At least I can weld tabs on before foredeck installation. P.S. It is raining again here for last several weeks - not much can be done inside the hull, before superstructure is on. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Who says you cant teach an old dog new tricks? I just realized that one can save some time and trouble by welding the tabs for the foredeck firing strips on, before installing the foredeck, while it is on it's back on a workbench. > | 30042|30042|2013-04-08 17:25:23|wild_explorer|Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|For several reasons I have to drop tween keels idea for my boat (regardless of advantages Tween keels offer). I opted out for low aspect Single keel to keep the same draft as for Twins. Installation of low aspect keel may differ from regular single keel - it is longer. My idea was to install it the same way as "display supports" are used for boat's models. I can make keel (which should fit the hull's shell shape) with some inside separators which will be shaped and act as "supports" for the hull. Then I can lift the hull, slide in the keel under the hull and lower the hull on the keel. After it, I can tack it in from the outside and cut unneeded hull's part later. Is there any disadvantages of doing it this way, instead of pulling Single keel through the keel's slot inside the hull?| 30043|30040|2013-04-09 18:06:11|brentswain38|Re: Foredeck firring strip tabs|Wish I had thought of it several decades earlier. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, I wish you posted this information several days earlier... I already sent assembled foredeck and side decks for blasting and priming ;(( > > Well... At least I can weld tabs on before foredeck installation. > > P.S. It is raining again here for last several weeks - not much can be done inside the hull, before superstructure is on. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Who says you cant teach an old dog new tricks? I just realized that one can save some time and trouble by welding the tabs for the foredeck firing strips on, before installing the foredeck, while it is on it's back on a workbench. > > > | 30044|30042|2013-04-09 18:10:20|brentswain38|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Pulling the keel thru the slot means you dont need accurate cutting. You just force the keel sides out to the slot and weld it in. Fitting it on the outside means you need far more acurate cutting to get a good fit. I used to do them that way, then found that pulling it thru a slot is much easier, and quicker. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > For several reasons I have to drop tween keels idea for my boat (regardless of advantages Tween keels offer). I opted out for low aspect Single keel to keep the same draft as for Twins. > > Installation of low aspect keel may differ from regular single keel - it is longer. > > My idea was to install it the same way as "display supports" are used for boat's models. I can make keel (which should fit the hull's shell shape) with some inside separators which will be shaped and act as "supports" for the hull. Then I can lift the hull, slide in the keel under the hull and lower the hull on the keel. After it, I can tack it in from the outside and cut unneeded hull's part later. > > Is there any disadvantages of doing it this way, instead of pulling Single keel through the keel's slot inside the hull? > | 30045|30042|2013-04-09 18:52:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Interesting....do you do it this way with the single keel version? If so, do you build the keel inside the boat or outside and then lift it up and in? Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 10/04/2013 10:10 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > Pulling the keel thru the slot means you dont need accurate cutting. > You just force the keel sides out to the slot and weld it in. Fitting > it on the outside means you need far more acurate cutting to get a > good fit. I used to do them that way, then found that pulling it thru > a slot is much easier, and quicker. | 30046|30042|2013-04-09 19:05:32|Paul Wilson|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Never mind....I think I misunderstood what you and wild were saying..... >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 10/04/2013 10:50 a.m., Paul Wilson wrote: > Interesting....do you do it this way with the single keel version? If > so, do you build the keel inside the boat or outside and then lift it up > and in? Paul > >> `•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 10/04/2013 10:10 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: >> Pulling the keel thru the slot means you dont need accurate cutting. >> You just force the keel sides out to the slot and weld it in. Fitting >> it on the outside means you need far more acurate cutting to get a >> good fit. I used to do them that way, then found that pulling it thru >> a slot is much easier, and quicker. > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 30047|30042|2013-04-09 21:57:03|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Yep, for single fin keel "pulling keel through pre-cut keel slot" has its advantage. - Simplified construction of the keel - less accurate cutting of the keel parts as well as keel's slot At this point mine shallow low aspect keel is almost full keel (which is much longer than fin keel). - In this case it would be hard to install it through the slot in the hull. - long keel slot will need a lot of reinforcement to keep hull's shape - more accurate cutting of the keel parts should not a problem (I can use 3D model & cut it on CNC) P.S. May be I need to find different foil for the keel to make it shorter and keep the same draft I want.... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Pulling the keel thru the slot means you dont need accurate cutting. You just force the keel sides out to the slot and weld it in. Fitting it on the outside means you need far more acurate cutting to get a good fit. I used to do them that way, then found that pulling it thru a slot is much easier, and quicker. > | 30048|30042|2013-04-09 23:18:49|Darren Bos|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Wild, Why did you give up on the twin keels? Darren At 06:57 PM 09/04/2013, you wrote: > > >Yep, for single fin keel "pulling keel through >pre-cut keel slot" has its advantage. > >- Simplified construction of the keel >- less accurate cutting of the keel parts as well as keel's slot > >At this point mine shallow low aspect keel is >almost full keel (which is much longer than fin keel). > >- In this case it would be hard to install it through the slot in the hull. >- long keel slot will need a lot of reinforcement to keep hull's shape >- more accurate cutting of the keel parts should >not a problem (I can use 3D model & cut it on CNC) > >P.S. May be I need to find different foil for >the keel to make it shorter and keep the same draft I want.... > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >"brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Pulling the keel thru the slot means you dont > need accurate cutting. You just force the keel > sides out to the slot and weld it in. Fitting > it on the outside means you need far more > acurate cutting to get a good fit. I used to do > them that way, then found that pulling it thru > a slot is much easier, and quicker. > > > > | 30049|30042|2013-04-10 02:02:04|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|My main reason for abandoning tween keel idea for my boat is strictly personal - I want to have more tankage than twin keels allows. I am getting only <100Gal (combined) for build in between keels tank. I do not want to build another tank on top of it. It will complicate construction and maintenance. Raising tank top will require to have transverse separators between keels and protruded edges of the keels more into the hull. I will still lose the space on the other side of the keels. With low aspect single keel I am able to get about 1000Gal (10 times more) tankage capacity. Some people may say I do not need it, but I think differently. If you stay close to shore, 100Gal (for fuel and water) looks OK, but if you go to remote areas where fuel is hard to find, extra tankage becomes a necessity. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Wild, > Why did you give up on the twin keels? > > Darren | 30050|30042|2013-04-10 06:24:32|Paul Wilson|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|I have 125 gallons of water and 90 gallons of fuel on my 36. It is all down in the single keel. That is plenty on a 36 or 40 foot boat. 90 gallons of fuel will last me easily a year charging batteries and motoring once in awhile. More if I have a good solar charging system or don't use my fridge. 125 gallons of water will last me and my wife many weeks, even if we have a quick daily shower. If we really want to save water, we do the dishes in salt water. 1000 gallons of water would weigh about 10,000 pounds....8,000 pounds if fuel. Far too much weight on a small boat. The only place that I know of where I would want or need more water other than my normal tankage is in Kiribati or Marshall Islands.....they go many months with no rain and the water on shore is often rationed or of poor quality. A water maker is great to have but it would be almost mandatory if I spent a season there. I wouldn't go for bigger tanks. Everywhere else I have been you can get water at a dock. If you really want a lot of water, get a water maker. Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 10/04/2013 6:02 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > My main reason for abandoning tween keel idea for my boat is strictly > personal - I want to have more tankage than twin keels allows. > > I am getting only <100Gal (combined) for build in between keels tank. > I do not want to build another tank on top of it. It will complicate > construction and maintenance. Raising tank top will require to have > transverse separators between keels and protruded edges of the keels > more into the hull. I will still lose the space on the other side of > the keels. > > With low aspect single keel I am able to get about 1000Gal (10 times > more) tankage capacity. Some people may say I do not need it, but I > think differently. If you stay close to shore, 100Gal (for fuel and > water) looks OK, but if you go to remote areas where fuel is hard to > find, extra tankage becomes a necessity. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Wild, > > Why did you give up on the twin keels? > > > > Darren > > | 30051|30042|2013-04-10 09:00:57|mkriley48|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|it kills me how some people show up cruising with a years worth of food and fuel in some remote place where people are busy eating and running around in boats! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > My main reason for abandoning tween keel idea for my boat is strictly personal - I want to have more tankage than twin keels allows. > > I am getting only <100Gal (combined) for build in between keels tank. I do not want to build another tank on top of it. It will complicate construction and maintenance. Raising tank top will require to have transverse separators between keels and protruded edges of the keels more into the hull. I will still lose the space on the other side of the keels. > > With low aspect single keel I am able to get about 1000Gal (10 times more) tankage capacity. Some people may say I do not need it, but I think differently. If you stay close to shore, 100Gal (for fuel and water) looks OK, but if you go to remote areas where fuel is hard to find, extra tankage becomes a necessity. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Wild, > > Why did you give up on the twin keels? > > > > Darren > | 30052|30042|2013-04-10 10:36:18|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|I already stated that my reasons will not make much sense for most people ;) So, I will skip discussion about it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > it kills me how some people show up cruising with a years worth of food and fuel in some remote place where people are busy eating and running around in boats! > | 30053|30042|2013-04-10 11:04:38|Norm Moore|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Your ideas don't need to make sense to others only to you. I applaud you Jim. If the keel is slightly tapered, wider top to bottom, wouldn't it work to drop the keel down from above and wedge the hull out slightly to form the fit? Only need a sledge to help it along then eh? If the keel stands at the height of the pilothouse deck level, well above the hull, then you can cut and fit wedge shaped sections to distribute the load transversely across at just under pilothouse sole height, thereby creating additional tankage either side of the keel tank. Since the keel is one-piece and finishes above the top of the side tanks then you can safely keep fuel in one and water in the other without chance of cross leakage. Should the keel be shorter than the pilothouse, extend a support longitudinally fore and aft terminating in a transverse bulkhead to form the lateral tanks ends. Impacts to the keel will be distributed over a broader area of hull plate and your lateral tanks will be larger. PS. You might want to look into Rivnuts for fastening things to the deck. Just drill a hole, insert and tighten then weld just the top side. Rivnuts are available in stainless and with a solid bottom. Okay I'll step off the soap box now... Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, April 10, 2013 7:36:24 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation I already stated that my reasons will not make much sense for most people ;) So, I will skip discussion about it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > it kills me how some people show up cruising with a years worth of food and >fuel in some remote place where people are busy eating and running around in >boats! > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30054|30042|2013-04-10 13:44:09|Norm Moore|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Just thought of another advantage of the lateral tanks. If you keep one side full of water and attach a pump with valves so you can move water to either side you can use water ballast when on one tack shifting the weight to the high side. Fresh water weighs 8.33/gallon 30 gallons is about 250 lbs. Food for thought... Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, April 10, 2013 7:36:24 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation I already stated that my reasons will not make much sense for most people ;) So, I will skip discussion about it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > it kills me how some people show up cruising with a years worth of food and >fuel in some remote place where people are busy eating and running around in >boats! > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30055|30042|2013-04-10 15:36:48|Paul Wilson|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|On 11/04/2013 3:04 a.m., Norm Moore wrote: > Your ideas don't need to make sense to others only to you. Mother nature can be a harsh mistress. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. | 30056|30042|2013-04-10 15:43:11|brentswain38|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|I build it outside and pull it thru with comealongs. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Interesting....do you do it this way with the single keel version? If > so, do you build the keel inside the boat or outside and then lift it up > and in? Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 10/04/2013 10:10 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Pulling the keel thru the slot means you dont need accurate cutting. > > You just force the keel sides out to the slot and weld it in. Fitting > > it on the outside means you need far more acurate cutting to get a > > good fit. I used to do them that way, then found that pulling it thru > > a slot is much easier, and quicker. > | 30057|30042|2013-04-10 15:49:56|brentswain38|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|1,000 gallons is 10,000 lbs. Freinds sailed from BC to Australia on 35 gallons . If it fell calm, they simply read. I once sailed from Bora Bora with 55 galons of water and arrived in Hilo 30 days later with 50. A bucket under the boom kept me topped up with rainwater. A watermaker makes huge water tanks even less important. Diesel is vailable almost anywhere.I think your tankage of 1,000 gallons is ludicrous, on a boat that size.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > My main reason for abandoning tween keel idea for my boat is strictly personal - I want to have more tankage than twin keels allows. > > I am getting only <100Gal (combined) for build in between keels tank. I do not want to build another tank on top of it. It will complicate construction and maintenance. Raising tank top will require to have transverse separators between keels and protruded edges of the keels more into the hull. I will still lose the space on the other side of the keels. > > With low aspect single keel I am able to get about 1000Gal (10 times more) tankage capacity. Some people may say I do not need it, but I think differently. If you stay close to shore, 100Gal (for fuel and water) looks OK, but if you go to remote areas where fuel is hard to find, extra tankage becomes a necessity. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Wild, > > Why did you give up on the twin keels? > > > > Darren > | 30058|30040|2013-04-10 18:26:59|wild_explorer|Re: Foredeck firring strip tabs|Brent, what about putting longitudinal stiffeners and tabs on cabin's and pilot's tops on a ground (before tops installation)? It should not affect plate's ability to take arc shape when it is fitted in place...| 30059|30042|2013-04-10 19:07:42|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Yep, it looks like a lot of weight for a sailboat... But... My boat has designed displacement 14t loaded, 8t empty. When I was looking if I can convert the hull to a fishing boat, I did some estimates.... I can increase displacement up to 25t (with more draft). Sailboat with 25t displacement will be slow, but still OK. So, "extra weight" is not much of a problem for me. I will not use 1000 Gal tank on a sailboat, but it will make a boat suitable for conversion to fishing boat if I want to. It just need to move PH and drop aft deck. On other hand, I can use extra tankage for water ballast. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > 1000 gallons of water would weigh > about 10,000 pounds....8,000 pounds if fuel. Far too much weight on a > small boat. > | 30060|30042|2013-04-10 20:04:18|Paul Wilson|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|How long is your boat? I thought it was only 38 or 40 feet. >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 11/04/2013 11:07 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Yep, it looks like a lot of weight for a sailboat... But... > > My boat has designed displacement 14t loaded, 8t empty. When I was > looking if I can convert the hull to a fishing boat, I did some > estimates.... I can increase displacement up to 25t (with more draft). > Sailboat with 25t displacement will be slow, but still OK. So, "extra > weight" is not much of a problem for me. > > I will not use 1000 Gal tank on a sailboat, but it will make a boat > suitable for conversion to fishing boat if I want to. It just need to > move PH and drop aft deck. > > On other hand, I can use extra tankage for water ballast. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > 1000 gallons of water would weigh > > about 10,000 pounds....8,000 pounds if fuel. Far too much weight on a > > small boat. > > > > | 30061|30042|2013-04-10 20:04:42|Norm Moore|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|What Jim is doing is not what you're doing. What I'm doing is not what either of you are doing. What I'm talking about is "horses for courses," his application of origami and the purposes he wants to put his boat to aren't yours or mine, and he shouldn't have to bring every Tom, Dick, and Harry up to speed with his perspective or intention if he doesn't want to. That's what I'm saying. He's building a custom boat let him customize it any way he sees fit. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, April 10, 2013 12:34:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation On 11/04/2013 3:04 a.m., Norm Moore wrote: > Your ideas don't need to make sense to others only to you. Mother nature can be a harsh mistress. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30062|30042|2013-04-10 20:18:43|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|You are correct. My boat's LOA 12m (39.5ft). Designed displacement 14t. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > How long is your boat? I thought it was only 38 or 40 feet. > | 30063|30042|2013-04-10 21:34:21|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Norm, Dropping long keel from above would be hard to accomplish by 1 man with DIY pole-crane. The keel is about 15ft long and its estimated weight is about 0.7t With superstructure on - will be next to impossible. For one man, it is much easier to slide long keel under the hull and drop the hull on it. Brent's method (pulling the keel inside the hull through keel slot) works pretty good for short fin keel (or tween keels). I am afraid that Brent's method may not work well for 15ft long keel. Long low aspect keel will not have much room for tankage (mostly for the ballast). I was thinking about making "built in" tank over the top of the keel (similar to tank between Twin keels) - with tank top from side-to-side of the hull. Transverse tank separators will make isolated tanks and will distribute the load of the keel along the hull. With tank top welded to separators and hull's sides it should make very strong structure. It is need to think how to make access to the "insides" of the keel or simply extend the edges of the keel to a tank-top level, making separate tank (that where Brent's method works best for fin keel), but for long keel it may need to come up with something else. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > If the keel is slightly tapered, wider top to bottom, wouldn't it work to drop > the keel down from above and wedge the hull out slightly to form the fit? Only > need a sledge to help it along then eh? If the keel stands at the height of the > pilothouse deck level, well above the hull, then you can cut and fit wedge > shaped sections to distribute the load transversely across at just under > pilothouse sole height, thereby creating additional tankage either side of the > keel tank. Since the keel is one-piece and finishes above the top of the side > tanks then you can safely keep fuel in one and water in the other without chance > of cross leakage. Should the keel be shorter than the pilothouse, extend a > support longitudinally fore and aft terminating in a transverse bulkhead to form > the lateral tanks ends. Impacts to the keel will be distributed over a broader > area of hull plate and your lateral tanks will be larger. | 30064|30042|2013-04-10 22:20:27|Norm Moore|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Jim, True, I apologize, my perspective is different, I was intending to contract out the hull construction and coating, rather than get all the equipment and DIY. Brent's method reduces labor on the hull to the point that contracting the metal work can be considered and now with Alex video, you can educate a contractor pretty easily on the techniques he needs to use. Large shops have overhead cranes and the hull halves can be supported in a simple cradle, (at least for the design I had in mind). My bad. You can run some keel volumes using NACA 015 cross section, rather than 010, which gives you a fatter midsection without increasing drag significantly. You'll cut the 8" pipe to have more of an included angle (wider splay). I thought about that to accommodate batteries for weight, (lead in one form or another), someone did this with traction batteries or works for L-16's too (24" tall). The person that did it is unpopular here so I won't mention names. Extending the keel inside to tank top level and using transverse webs creates a very strong structure, it's what the bridge engineer Gary Noble Curtis did on his origami boat. That was the only metal transverse framing he used, the rest was wooden bulkheads which can flex. I think it would be easy to have the sides a different height than the center, doesn't need to be exact, but accessing the top of the keel is a problem for tanks. Not if kept open for batteries, with lead ballast on the front end and a tail tank in the rear for oil changes, split up the middle, old on one side new on the other, could be closed and left to themselves w/o inspection. I started thinking about using cut "I" beams for webs with bottom flange cutaway giving me a ready flange on top, drilled and tapped for bolts for an acrylic tank top, but then I was trying to reduce labor costs by CAM cutting them out of a single "I" beam. Rivnuts might work there too. Complete tank inspection with a flashlight, being more important for fuel than water. Again it all depends on what your design parameters are. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, April 10, 2013 6:34:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation Norm, Dropping long keel from above would be hard to accomplish by 1 man with DIY pole-crane. The keel is about 15ft long and its estimated weight is about 0.7t With superstructure on - will be next to impossible. For one man, it is much easier to slide long keel under the hull and drop the hull on it. Brent's method (pulling the keel inside the hull through keel slot) works pretty good for short fin keel (or tween keels). I am afraid that Brent's method may not work well for 15ft long keel. Long low aspect keel will not have much room for tankage (mostly for the ballast). I was thinking about making "built in" tank over the top of the keel (similar to tank between Twin keels) - with tank top from side-to-side of the hull. Transverse tank separators will make isolated tanks and will distribute the load of the keel along the hull. With tank top welded to separators and hull's sides it should make very strong structure. It is need to think how to make access to the "insides" of the keel or simply extend the edges of the keel to a tank-top level, making separate tank (that where Brent's method works best for fin keel), but for long keel it may need to come up with something else. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > If the keel is slightly tapered, wider top to bottom, wouldn't it work to drop > the keel down from above and wedge the hull out slightly to form the fit? Only > > need a sledge to help it along then eh? If the keel stands at the height of >the > > pilothouse deck level, well above the hull, then you can cut and fit wedge > shaped sections to distribute the load transversely across at just under > pilothouse sole height, thereby creating additional tankage either side of the > > keel tank. Since the keel is one-piece and finishes above the top of the side > tanks then you can safely keep fuel in one and water in the other without >chance > > of cross leakage. Should the keel be shorter than the pilothouse, extend a > support longitudinally fore and aft terminating in a transverse bulkhead to >form > > the lateral tanks ends. Impacts to the keel will be distributed over a broader > > area of hull plate and your lateral tanks will be larger. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30065|30042|2013-04-11 08:46:04|Norm Moore|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Jim, I lost your e-mail addresses when I upgraded computers and the old one is somewhere on the trash heap. I have some things that might be of interest, which again I found by accident, like that second draft book in French, that I can't share on a public forum. Please send your contact info and I'll route it along to you. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, April 10, 2013 6:34:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation Norm, Dropping long keel from above would be hard to accomplish by 1 man with DIY pole-crane. The keel is about 15ft long and its estimated weight is about 0.7t With superstructure on - will be next to impossible. For one man, it is much easier to slide long keel under the hull and drop the hull on it. Brent's method (pulling the keel inside the hull through keel slot) works pretty good for short fin keel (or tween keels). I am afraid that Brent's method may not work well for 15ft long keel. Long low aspect keel will not have much room for tankage (mostly for the ballast). I was thinking about making "built in" tank over the top of the keel (similar to tank between Twin keels) - with tank top from side-to-side of the hull. Transverse tank separators will make isolated tanks and will distribute the load of the keel along the hull. With tank top welded to separators and hull's sides it should make very strong structure. It is need to think how to make access to the "insides" of the keel or simply extend the edges of the keel to a tank-top level, making separate tank (that where Brent's method works best for fin keel), but for long keel it may need to come up with something else. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > If the keel is slightly tapered, wider top to bottom, wouldn't it work to drop > the keel down from above and wedge the hull out slightly to form the fit? Only > > need a sledge to help it along then eh? If the keel stands at the height of >the > > pilothouse deck level, well above the hull, then you can cut and fit wedge > shaped sections to distribute the load transversely across at just under > pilothouse sole height, thereby creating additional tankage either side of the > > keel tank. Since the keel is one-piece and finishes above the top of the side > tanks then you can safely keep fuel in one and water in the other without >chance > > of cross leakage. Should the keel be shorter than the pilothouse, extend a > support longitudinally fore and aft terminating in a transverse bulkhead to >form > > the lateral tanks ends. Impacts to the keel will be distributed over a broader > > area of hull plate and your lateral tanks will be larger. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30066|30040|2013-04-11 16:04:26|brentswain38|Re: Foredeck firring strip tabs|The most effective stifeners are those which maintain a curve, such as longitudinals for a hard chine hull, and transverse beams running along the curve, rather than across it , on the cabin top. Longitudinals on the cabin top would result in a cabintop which is soft between the stiffeners. Transverse beams, by maintaining the curve, would result in a far stiffer cabin top.One can put short longitudinal pieces in between beams to fair out any hollow spots. One could put transvertse beams in a cabin top before installing it, with bow strings welded on so the curve doesn't come out before it is in, but that would be heavy and possibly not worth the extra work. It could work in a shop with a crane, but I wouldnt want to handle it without one --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, what about putting longitudinal stiffeners and tabs on cabin's and pilot's tops on a ground (before tops installation)? It should not affect plate's ability to take arc shape when it is fitted in place... > | 30067|30042|2013-04-11 16:22:02|brentswain38|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Yes, when Suzie decided on a full length keel for one of my 31's, she had no option but to weld it on from the outside, and cut the centreline out after it was on. As a full length keel leaves you with an inacsesible area in the back, which is to far aft for tankage,very hard to paint and maintain, and which adds over 350 lbs in the stern, where you least need it, I dont think a full lenght keel is adviseable, nor does it have any useful advantage over a long keel with a separate skeg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Norm, > > Dropping long keel from above would be hard to accomplish by 1 man with DIY pole-crane. The keel is about 15ft long and its estimated weight is about 0.7t With superstructure on - will be next to impossible. > > For one man, it is much easier to slide long keel under the hull and drop the hull on it. Brent's method (pulling the keel inside the hull through keel slot) works pretty good for short fin keel (or tween keels). I am afraid that Brent's method may not work well for 15ft long keel. > > Long low aspect keel will not have much room for tankage (mostly for the ballast). I was thinking about making "built in" tank over the top of the keel (similar to tank between Twin keels) - with tank top from side-to-side of the hull. Transverse tank separators will make isolated tanks and will distribute the load of the keel along the hull. With tank top welded to separators and hull's sides it should make very strong structure. > > It is need to think how to make access to the "insides" of the keel or simply extend the edges of the keel to a tank-top level, making separate tank (that where Brent's method works best for fin keel), but for long keel it may need to come up with something else. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > If the keel is slightly tapered, wider top to bottom, wouldn't it work to drop > > the keel down from above and wedge the hull out slightly to form the fit? Only > > need a sledge to help it along then eh? If the keel stands at the height of the > > pilothouse deck level, well above the hull, then you can cut and fit wedge > > shaped sections to distribute the load transversely across at just under > > pilothouse sole height, thereby creating additional tankage either side of the > > keel tank. Since the keel is one-piece and finishes above the top of the side > > tanks then you can safely keep fuel in one and water in the other without chance > > of cross leakage. Should the keel be shorter than the pilothouse, extend a > > support longitudinally fore and aft terminating in a transverse bulkhead to form > > the lateral tanks ends. Impacts to the keel will be distributed over a broader > > area of hull plate and your lateral tanks will be larger. > | 30068|30042|2013-04-11 16:30:39|brentswain38|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|One should keep in mind that, unless a large keel is filled with something, it is buoyancy, reducing stability. Some of Hutton's designs had more buoyancy in a wide ,full length keel than the weight of it's ballast. On my boats, the combination of keel and tankage built on top of it is far stronger than any transverse stiffeners could ever be. If you have a fuel tank built in, and some of the fuel leaks in to the ballast, it means zero chance of corrosion in the ballast compartment. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > Jim, True, I apologize, my perspective is different, I was intending to contract > out the hull construction and coating, rather than get all the equipment and > DIY. Brent's method reduces labor on the hull to the point that contracting the > metal work can be considered and now with Alex video, you can educate a > contractor pretty easily on the techniques he needs to use. Large shops have > overhead cranes and the hull halves can be supported in a simple cradle, (at > least for the design I had in mind). My bad. > > > You can run some keel volumes using NACA 015 cross section, rather than 010, > which gives you a fatter midsection without increasing drag significantly. > You'll cut the 8" pipe to have more of an included angle (wider splay). I > thought about that to accommodate batteries for weight, (lead in one form or > another), someone did this with traction batteries or works for L-16's too (24" > tall). The person that did it is unpopular here so I won't mention names. > Extending the keel inside to tank top level and using transverse webs creates a > very strong structure, it's what the bridge engineer Gary Noble Curtis did on > his origami boat. That was the only metal transverse framing he used, the rest > was wooden bulkheads which can flex. I think it would be easy to have the sides > a different height than the center, doesn't need to be exact, but accessing the > top of the keel is a problem for tanks. Not if kept open for batteries, with > lead ballast on the front end and a tail tank in the rear for oil changes, split > up the middle, old on one side new on the other, could be closed and left to > themselves w/o inspection. > > I started thinking about using cut "I" beams for webs with bottom flange cutaway > giving me a ready flange on top, drilled and tapped for bolts for an acrylic > tank top, but then I was trying to reduce labor costs by CAM cutting them out of > a single "I" beam. Rivnuts might work there too. Complete tank inspection with > a flashlight, being more important for fuel than water. Again it all depends on > what your design parameters are. > > Norm Moore > > "I'll believe corporations are people, > when Texas executes one of them." > > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, April 10, 2013 6:34:23 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation > > > Norm, > > Dropping long keel from above would be hard to accomplish by 1 man with DIY > pole-crane. The keel is about 15ft long and its estimated weight is about 0.7t > With superstructure on - will be next to impossible. > > For one man, it is much easier to slide long keel under the hull and drop the > hull on it. Brent's method (pulling the keel inside the hull through keel slot) > works pretty good for short fin keel (or tween keels). I am afraid that Brent's > method may not work well for 15ft long keel. > > Long low aspect keel will not have much room for tankage (mostly for the > ballast). I was thinking about making "built in" tank over the top of the keel > (similar to tank between Twin keels) - with tank top from side-to-side of the > hull. Transverse tank separators will make isolated tanks and will distribute > the load of the keel along the hull. With tank top welded to separators and > hull's sides it should make very strong structure. > > It is need to think how to make access to the "insides" of the keel or simply > extend the edges of the keel to a tank-top level, making separate tank (that > where Brent's method works best for fin keel), but for long keel it may need to > come up with something else. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > If the keel is slightly tapered, wider top to bottom, wouldn't it work to drop > > > the keel down from above and wedge the hull out slightly to form the fit? Only > > > > need a sledge to help it along then eh? If the keel stands at the height of > >the > > > > pilothouse deck level, well above the hull, then you can cut and fit wedge > > shaped sections to distribute the load transversely across at just under > > pilothouse sole height, thereby creating additional tankage either side of the > > > > keel tank. Since the keel is one-piece and finishes above the top of the side > > > tanks then you can safely keep fuel in one and water in the other without > >chance > > > > of cross leakage. Should the keel be shorter than the pilothouse, extend a > > support longitudinally fore and aft terminating in a transverse bulkhead to > >form > > > > the lateral tanks ends. Impacts to the keel will be distributed over a broader > > > > area of hull plate and your lateral tanks will be larger. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30069|30042|2013-04-11 16:36:35|brentswain38|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|As the highest pressure on a keel going to windward is near the leading edge, and it is the leading edge which reduces leeway the most , lengthening the keel does little in reducing leeway. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Yep, for single fin keel "pulling keel through pre-cut keel slot" has its advantage. > > - Simplified construction of the keel > - less accurate cutting of the keel parts as well as keel's slot > > At this point mine shallow low aspect keel is almost full keel (which is much longer than fin keel). > > - In this case it would be hard to install it through the slot in the hull. > - long keel slot will need a lot of reinforcement to keep hull's shape > - more accurate cutting of the keel parts should not a problem (I can use 3D model & cut it on CNC) > > P.S. May be I need to find different foil for the keel to make it shorter and keep the same draft I want.... > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Pulling the keel thru the slot means you dont need accurate cutting. You just force the keel sides out to the slot and weld it in. Fitting it on the outside means you need far more acurate cutting to get a good fit. I used to do them that way, then found that pulling it thru a slot is much easier, and quicker. > > > | 30070|30042|2013-04-11 16:38:17|brentswain38|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|How long is your keel? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > My main reason for abandoning tween keel idea for my boat is strictly personal - I want to have more tankage than twin keels allows. > > I am getting only <100Gal (combined) for build in between keels tank. I do not want to build another tank on top of it. It will complicate construction and maintenance. Raising tank top will require to have transverse separators between keels and protruded edges of the keels more into the hull. I will still lose the space on the other side of the keels. > > With low aspect single keel I am able to get about 1000Gal (10 times more) tankage capacity. Some people may say I do not need it, but I think differently. If you stay close to shore, 100Gal (for fuel and water) looks OK, but if you go to remote areas where fuel is hard to find, extra tankage becomes a necessity. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Wild, > > Why did you give up on the twin keels? > > > > Darren > | 30071|30040|2013-04-12 00:45:32|wild_explorer|Re: Foredeck firring strip tabs|My PH/cabin tops will be made from several sheets. If I understood correctly, it would be better to use transverse arcs (as shape and support for joining sheets) with longitudinal flat bars running through it (to keep all sheet aligned in longitudinal direction)? It will require to tack in sheets to that frame in place. Correct? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The most effective stifeners are those which maintain a curve, such as longitudinals for a hard chine hull, and transverse beams running along the curve, rather than across it , on the cabin top. Longitudinals on the cabin top would result in a cabintop which is soft between the stiffeners. Transverse beams, by maintaining the curve, would result in a far stiffer cabin top.One can put short longitudinal pieces in between beams to fair out any hollow spots. One could put transvertse beams in a cabin top before installing it, with bow strings welded on so the curve doesn't come out before it is in, but that would be heavy and possibly not worth the extra work. It could work in a shop with a crane, but I wouldnt want to handle it without one > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Brent, what about putting longitudinal stiffeners and tabs on cabin's and pilot's tops on a ground (before tops installation)? It should not affect plate's ability to take arc shape when it is fitted in place... > > > | 30072|30042|2013-04-12 01:30:12|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Brent, I was unable to make keel shorter than 12ft (root chord) for my hull. For different versions (twin, fin, long) it will be about 12-15ft long to keep acceptable draft and depends on foil used for the keel. So, I need to have keel with volume enough at least for the ballast with the shape which keep boat balanced and with span allowing reasonable draft. It will give moderate aspect ratio for fin and twin keels and low aspect for long keel. It is probably better to describe single low aspect keel I have in mind as "Long keel", because there is some space between trailing edge of the keel and leading edge of the rudder. My Twin keels have almost the same length as fin keel (may be slightly shorter). This is because it is need to have the same keel's volume distribution for hull's balance. That means, I will have to make 2 pretty long keels for Twin version instead of 1 for Single Fin or Single Long version. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > How long is your keel? > | 30073|30073|2013-04-12 02:35:36|shaneduncan206@yahoo.com|Chain pull gear thickness|What thickness should the chain pull main gear be, 20mm am going to get it cnc plasma cut sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset ----- Reply message ----- From: "wild_explorer" To: Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Foredeck firring strip tabs Date: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 12:45 PM My PH/cabin tops will be made from several sheets. If I understood correctly, it would be better to use transverse arcs (as shape and support for joining sheets) with longitudinal flat bars running through it (to keep all sheet aligned in longitudinal direction)? It will require to tack in sheets to that frame in place. Correct? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The most effective stifeners are those which maintain a curve, such as longitudinals for a hard chine hull, and transverse beams running along the curve, rather than across it , on the cabin top. Longitudinals on the cabin top would result in a cabintop which is soft between the stiffeners. Transverse beams, by maintaining the curve, would result in a far stiffer cabin top.One can put short longitudinal pieces in between beams to fair out any hollow spots. One could put transvertse beams in a cabin top before installing it, with bow strings welded on so the curve doesn't come out before it is [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30074|30074|2013-04-12 03:00:30|shaneduncan206@yahoo.com|Re: anchor winch Chain pull gear thickness|That's the anchor winch chain pull not boat building chain pull sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset ----- Reply message ----- From: "shaneduncan206@..." To: Subject: [origamiboats] Chain pull gear thickness Date: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 2:35 PM What thickness should the chain pull main gear be, 20mm am going to get it cnc plasma cut sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset ----- Reply message ----- From: "wild_explorer" To: Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Foredeck firring strip tabs Date: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 12:45 PM My PH/cabin tops will be made from several sheets. If I understood correctly, it would be better to use transverse arcs (as shape and support for joining sheets) with longitudinal flat bars running through it (to keep all sheet aligned in longitudinal direction)? It will require to tack in sheets to that frame in place. Correct? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The most effective stifeners are those which maintain a curve, such as longitudinals for a hard chine hull, and transverse beams running along the curve, rather than across it , on the cabin top. Longitudinals on the cabin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30075|29932|2013-04-12 18:14:08|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100|Gord, No, I still have plenty if you need some. Thx.Andy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Have you sold all your 55100? > Gord > > On 2013-03-26, at 1:40 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 wrote: > > > > > Five liters per set. I have 45 gallons plus hardener. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > 5 litres wont cover much. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > > > > > I am going to have paint left over-enough to do a boat. If anyone needs paint, let me know. This is a two part paint in four liter can+1 liter can hardener so 5 liters combined for $100 USD. Sorry but I only have one color-gray. PM me if interested. Thx.Andy > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any experience with Hempels Poly enamel 55100? It's a 2 part polyurethane rated for marine environments. Is it tricky to apply? Does it bond well w/ coal tar base coats, etc,etc???? More info here: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hempel.com/en/products/hempathane-enamel-55100 > > > > > > > > > > Thx.Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30076|29932|2013-04-12 18:24:08|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Hempels Polyenamel 55100|Andy I'm finishing a BS40. All primed and nearly ready to paint. Out of town right now. Need to check compatibility with primers already applied. Get back to you in a week or so. Gord Sent from my iPhone On 2013-04-12, at 4:14 PM, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > Gord, No, I still have plenty if you need some. Thx.Andy > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > Have you sold all your 55100? > > Gord > > > > On 2013-03-26, at 1:40 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 wrote: > > > > > > > > Five liters per set. I have 45 gallons plus hardener. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > 5 litres wont cover much. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I am going to have paint left over-enough to do a boat. If anyone needs paint, let me know. This is a two part paint in four liter can+1 liter can hardener so 5 liters combined for $100 USD. Sorry but I only have one color-gray. PM me if interested. Thx.Andy > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any experience with Hempels Poly enamel 55100? It's a 2 part polyurethane rated for marine environments. Is it tricky to apply? Does it bond well w/ coal tar base coats, etc,etc???? More info here: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hempel.com/en/products/hempathane-enamel-55100 > > > > > > > > > > > > Thx.Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30077|30077|2013-04-13 09:37:00|shaneduncan206@yahoo.com|thickness chain pull|Will go for 15mm sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset ----- Reply message ----- From: "shaneduncan206@..." To: Subject: [origamiboats] Chain pull gear thickness Date: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 2:35 PM What thickness should the chain pull main gear be, 20mm am going to get it cnc plasma cut sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset ----- Reply message ----- From: "wild_explorer" To: Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Foredeck firring strip tabs Date: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 12:45 PM My PH/cabin tops will be made from several sheets. If I understood correctly, it would be better to use transverse arcs (as shape and support for joining sheets) with longitudinal flat bars running through it (to keep all sheet aligned in longitudinal direction)? It will require to tack in sheets to that frame in place. Correct? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The most effective stifeners are those which maintain a curve, such as longitudinals for a hard chine hull, and transverse beams running along the curve, rather than across it , on the cabin top. Longitudinals on the cabin top would result in a cabintop which is soft between the stiffeners. Transverse beams, by maintaining the curve, would result in a far stiffer cabin top.One can put short longitudinal pieces in between beams to fair out any hollow spots. One could put transvertse beams in a cabin top before installing it, with bow strings welded on so the curve doesn't come out before it is [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30078|30042|2013-04-13 13:52:05|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Correction: space between keel and SKEG. P.S. Note for new members... Discussion in THIS thread about keel IS NOT about Brent's design. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > It is probably better to describe single low aspect keel I have in mind as "Long keel", because there is some space between trailing edge of the keel and leading edge of the rudder. > | 30079|30077|2013-04-13 15:51:07|Paul Wilson|Re: thickness chain pull|Hi Shane, I don't have my original plans handy but if I remember right they show the gear is cut from 1/2 inch plate. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 14/04/2013 1:36 a.m., shaneduncan206@... wrote: > > Will go for 15mm > > sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset > > ----- Reply message ----- > From: "shaneduncan206@... " > > > To: > > Subject: [origamiboats] Chain pull gear thickness > Date: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 2:35 PM > > What thickness should the chain pull main gear be, 20mm am going to > get it cnc plasma cut > | 30081|30040|2013-04-13 17:51:11|brentswain38|Re: Foredeck firring strip tabs|Yes, transverse beams make a much stronger and stiffer cabintop. As any transverse seams tend to shrink longitudinally , centreing a transvetrse beam directly under the seam stops this shrinkage, resulting in a much fairer cabin top. Usually you wont need any longitudinals on the cabin top, but short ones can be used to fair out any hollows, should they occur. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > My PH/cabin tops will be made from several sheets. If I understood correctly, it would be better to use transverse arcs (as shape and support for joining sheets) with longitudinal flat bars running through it (to keep all sheet aligned in longitudinal direction)? > > It will require to tack in sheets to that frame in place. Correct? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > The most effective stifeners are those which maintain a curve, such as longitudinals for a hard chine hull, and transverse beams running along the curve, rather than across it , on the cabin top. Longitudinals on the cabin top would result in a cabintop which is soft between the stiffeners. Transverse beams, by maintaining the curve, would result in a far stiffer cabin top.One can put short longitudinal pieces in between beams to fair out any hollow spots. One could put transvertse beams in a cabin top before installing it, with bow strings welded on so the curve doesn't come out before it is in, but that would be heavy and possibly not worth the extra work. It could work in a shop with a crane, but I wouldnt want to handle it without one > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, what about putting longitudinal stiffeners and tabs on cabin's and pilot's tops on a ground (before tops installation)? It should not affect plate's ability to take arc shape when it is fitted in place... > > > > > > | 30082|30042|2013-04-13 18:02:53|brentswain38|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|The single keel version of my 36 has a 12 ft long keel at the root cord, and I have no problem running it thru a slot . I use the same 8 ft by 12 ft sheet for either the twin keel or the single keel,as each of the twin keels is half the size of the single keel. Being upright when the hull is heeled 25 degrees gives each of them the same lateral resistance as the much bigger single keel. They are each 100% more efficient than a single keel heeled 25 degrees , in terms of lateral resistance. Designers repeatedly missing this point is why twin keels have a bad reputation, for excessive wetted surface. The total wetted surface of my 36 is the same, whether single or twin keels. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, I was unable to make keel shorter than 12ft (root chord) for my hull. For different versions (twin, fin, long) it will be about 12-15ft long to keep acceptable draft and depends on foil used for the keel. > > So, I need to have keel with volume enough at least for the ballast with the shape which keep boat balanced and with span allowing reasonable draft. It will give moderate aspect ratio for fin and twin keels and low aspect for long keel. > > It is probably better to describe single low aspect keel I have in mind as "Long keel", because there is some space between trailing edge of the keel and leading edge of the rudder. > > My Twin keels have almost the same length as fin keel (may be slightly shorter). This is because it is need to have the same keel's volume distribution for hull's balance. That means, I will have to make 2 pretty long keels for Twin version instead of 1 for Single Fin or Single Long version. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > How long is your keel? > > > | 30083|30073|2013-04-13 18:06:16|brentswain38|Re: Chain pull gear thickness|I usually go for half inch, altho some have used 3/8th inch, and spaced it out to reduce the chances of the pawls slipping off. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaneduncan206@..." wrote: > > What thickness should the chain pull main gear be, 20mm am going to get it cnc plasma cut > > sent from my Telstra NEXTG™ handset > > ----- Reply message ----- > From: "wild_explorer" > To: > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Foredeck firring strip tabs > Date: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 12:45 PM > > > My PH/cabin tops will be made from several sheets. If I understood correctly, it would be better to use transverse arcs (as shape and support for joining sheets) with longitudinal flat bars running through it (to keep all sheet aligned in longitudinal direction)? > > It will require to tack in sheets to that frame in place. Correct? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > The most effective stifeners are those which maintain a curve, such as longitudinals for a hard chine hull, and transverse beams running along the curve, rather than across it , on the cabin top. Longitudinals on the cabin top would result in a cabintop which is soft between the stiffeners. Transverse beams, by maintaining the curve, would result in a far stiffer cabin top.One can put short longitudinal pieces in between beams to fair out any hollow spots. One could put transvertse beams in a cabin top before installing it, with bow strings welded on so the curve doesn't come out before it is > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30084|30084|2013-04-13 22:12:59|x|IPAD navigation software and charts|I am using an "app" for aviation planning (ForeFlight) and now looking into BlueChart etc. for the iPAD. Information varies greatly on the quality of apps. Therefore, I was wondering if anyone wanted to discuss it here? Presently sailing a Swain 37 berthed in Ala Wai and a 30' power boat in Kona. I really like planning trips. Sometimes actually going. :-)| 30085|30042|2013-04-14 01:02:39|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Brent, I am considering 2 options now... After banging my head against the wall for several days to keep draft as low as possible, I came up with 2 revisions: - Single Long keel with root chord about 19ft - Tween with root chord about 16 ft Single Long keel will require "slide under" installation. Twins could be fitted through the slot (I do not see another option). Such long Twins will require additional extension (simply keel made higher than necessary) into the hull for reinforcement. Reinforcement: - Placing tank top between keels (where keel meets the hull) and another tank top running from hull sides over keel tops with transverse baffles between keels. - Another option is to make transverse baffles between keels running from top of the keels to the bottom/Centerline of the hull, but only with one tank top (sectional) from side-to-side of the hull over keel's tops. Extensions of Twin keels could be used as fuel tanks. This arrangement will avoid any problems with long Twins stress and weight distribution along the hull. I think that "bad" reputation of twin keels is the result of inability to fit twin keels to any hull. It may not be a good idea "just put it in" because someone decided to do it. Hull should be designed to accept twins. Your hull shape is different - it will naturally take twin keels. May be that why you can get away with half chord length for twins compare to single keel. Personally, I do not worry much about excessive wetted surface of Twins. I am not building racing sailboat... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The single keel version of my 36 has a 12 ft long keel at the root cord, and I have no problem running it thru a slot . I use the same 8 ft by 12 ft sheet for either the twin keel or the single keel,as each of the twin keels is half the size of the single keel. > Being upright when the hull is heeled 25 degrees gives each of them the same lateral resistance as the much bigger single keel. They are each 100% more efficient than a single keel heeled 25 degrees , in terms of lateral resistance. Designers repeatedly missing this point is why twin keels have a bad reputation, for excessive wetted surface. The total wetted surface of my 36 is the same, whether single or twin keels. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Brent, I was unable to make keel shorter than 12ft (root chord) for my hull. For different versions (twin, fin, long) it will be about 12-15ft long to keep acceptable draft and depends on foil used for the keel. > > > > So, I need to have keel with volume enough at least for the ballast with the shape which keep boat balanced and with span allowing reasonable draft. It will give moderate aspect ratio for fin and twin keels and low aspect for long keel. > > > > It is probably better to describe single low aspect keel I have in mind as "Long keel", because there is some space between trailing edge of the keel and leading edge of the rudder. > > > > My Twin keels have almost the same length as fin keel (may be slightly shorter). This is because it is need to have the same keel's volume distribution for hull's balance. That means, I will have to make 2 pretty long keels for Twin version instead of 1 for Single Fin or Single Long version. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > How long is your keel? > > > > > > | 30086|30086|2013-04-14 04:20:27|shaneduncan206@yahoo.com|Re: [origamiboats] thickness chain pull|Cheers Paul, it was going to cost over $2000 for an electric one, so was an easy choise sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset ----- Reply message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Subject: [origamiboats] thickness chain pull Date: Sun, Apr 14, 2013 3:49 AM Hi Shane, I don't have my original plans handy but if I remember right they show the gear is cut from 1/2 inch plate. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 14/04/2013 1:36 a.m., shaneduncan206@... wrote: > > Will go for 15mm > > sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset > > ----- Reply message ----- > From: "shaneduncan206@... " > > > To: > > Subject: [origamiboats] Chain pull gear thickness > Date: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 2:35 PM > > What thickness should the chain pull main gear be, 20mm am going to > get it cnc plasma cut > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30087|30042|2013-04-14 15:25:11|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Can someone compare sea motion of Twin keel they love with Island Packet? Seams like those sailboats stick with long keels. I am trying to reduce draft even more (compare to low draft of tween keels), and I am getting similar keel which is used on Island Packet. Any comments from some people who sailed both?| 30088|30042|2013-04-14 15:35:06|martin demers|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|As long as a sailboat has a mast , I think there is a limit in reducing the draft. I too wanted to reduce draft on my boat and for now I will leave it as it is, at 5ft8in Find and article about the Fasnet race of 78 or 79 where there were many life lost. There were many yacht with centerboard keels design by Olin Stevens, he said after the race that if he had known before he wouldn't have design such boats. Cut your mast and you wont need much keel...lol Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:25:10 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation Can someone compare sea motion of Twin keel they love with Island Packet? Seams like those sailboats stick with long keels. I am trying to reduce draft even more (compare to low draft of tween keels), and I am getting similar keel which is used on Island Packet. Any comments from some people who sailed both? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30089|30042|2013-04-14 16:33:28|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Martin, could you clarify what was in that report after Fastnet about keels? To keep it simple (for given hull): - There is vertical center of gravity (VCG) of the ballast for different keels - stress of the keel on the hull - leverage of the keel - depends on aspect ratio of the keel (longer leverage - more stress) Different keels should have displacement at least the same as the volume of the ballast. Real keels will have more displacement than needed (for several reasons). If to talk about single keels, Keel with short root chord and long span may not necessary have much lover VCG of the ballast (unless it has bulb on it), but will induce more stress on the hull. If compare Single keel to Twins, single keel will have lower VCG of the ballast compare to twins. Stress of the twins on the hull is different story (could be solved). To lower VCG of the ballast for twins, it will require to put bulbs on Twins - increase stress. Stability and sea motion is different story as well... Not necessary better with keel that has longer span. We skip it for now - too complicated. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > As long as a sailboat has a mast , I think there is a limit in reducing the draft. > I too wanted to reduce draft on my boat and for now I will leave it as it is, at 5ft8in > > Find and article about the Fasnet race of 78 or 79 where there were many life lost. There were many yacht with centerboard keels design by Olin Stevens, he said after the race that if he had known before he wouldn't have design such boats. > Cut your mast and you wont need much keel...lol > Martin > | 30090|30042|2013-04-14 20:41:18|Norm Moore|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|There are several books written about the Fastnet disaster. One story by someone who experienced it, "Fastnet, Force 10; The Deadliest Storm in the History of Modern Sailing" by John Rousmaniere, criticizes Ted Turner the winner of the race, who passed the worst area before the two storms converged from different directions creating a deadly squash zone. While the largest naval rescue operation since Dunkirk was being mounted, Turner strutted around in front of the reporters on scene, bitching that the committee hadn't declared him the winner. 15 died, 24 crews abandoned their boats, only 5 of which actually sank, and 136 sailors were rescued from the Irish Sea. "Seaworthiness - The Forgotten Factor" by CA Marchaj is the definitive work that looks at the Fastnet disaster to find solutions as to why boat designs that had been seaworthy were redesigned for speed and lost their seaworthiness. It's long, academic and builds the logical case with tank tests etc. so many people find it boring. I had to read it twice through to really get the most out of it, but it's worth it IMHO. Marchaj explains why this happened and how to avoid it by re-designing the boats. Interestingly the designs at fault had been abandoned earlier in the century for the same reasons, but everybody had forgotten why or simply put on blinders and tried not to notice. (Same thing happened with the Tacoma Narrows Suspension Bridge.) Most books on boat design cite Marchaj's work and particularly the example of two 30-32' boats lateral stability and design; Grimalkin which was designed for speed and lost 2 crew dead and was abandoned but didn't sink, and Contessa 32 which was in the same area and rescued another boat's crew and returned safely with all aboard. Differences in design of the two boats are examined These treat the incident academically. "Left for Dead: Surviving the Deadliest Storm in Modern Sailing History" by Nick Wardwas published in 2007 and is his story of what happened on Grimalkin. Nick was only 19 and had been tossed overboard by the violent motion of the boat to the storm, but was still attached by his lifeline. When he regained consciousness and managed to get back into the boat. He found the life raft and most of the crew gone, one man (23 y.o. married with a baby) lying semi-conscious on deck with a compound fracture turning blue. Nick went below to find first aid gear and blankets, only to find three feet of sea water, no fresh water, no first aid gear, dry clothing or blankets, the owner dead of a fatal concussion that had occurred earlier to his temple by an unsecured can of tuna flying across the cabin. Nick stayed with the boat, the man on deck whom Nick had become friends with earlier, died of exposure and loss of blood in his arms. He was eventually rescued 3 days later largely because his crewmates, who were rescued within hours, reported that everyone else on-board was dead. It was over 20 years before Nick, now much older could understand why those young men on the crew, frightened witless, had abandoned him and the others and could write about what happened. He never spoke to any of them again. Take your pick. Most or all of them can be found in libraries, which is where I found them. Norm Moore "I'll believe corporations are people, when Texas executes one of them." ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, April 14, 2013 1:33:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation Martin, could you clarify what was in that report after Fastnet about keels? To keep it simple (for given hull): - There is vertical center of gravity (VCG) of the ballast for different keels - stress of the keel on the hull - leverage of the keel - depends on aspect ratio of the keel (longer leverage - more stress) Different keels should have displacement at least the same as the volume of the ballast. Real keels will have more displacement than needed (for several reasons). If to talk about single keels, Keel with short root chord and long span may not necessary have much lover VCG of the ballast (unless it has bulb on it), but will induce more stress on the hull. If compare Single keel to Twins, single keel will have lower VCG of the ballast compare to twins. Stress of the twins on the hull is different story (could be solved). To lower VCG of the ballast for twins, it will require to put bulbs on Twins - increase stress. Stability and sea motion is different story as well... Not necessary better with keel that has longer span. We skip it for now - too complicated. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > As long as a sailboat has a mast , I think there is a limit in reducing the >draft. > I too wanted to reduce draft on my boat and for now I will leave it as it is, >at 5ft8in > > Find and article about the Fasnet race of 78 or 79 where there were many life >lost. There were many yacht with centerboard keels design by Olin Stevens, he >said after the race that if he had known before he wouldn't have design such >boats. > Cut your mast and you wont need much keel...lol > Martin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30091|30042|2013-04-14 22:05:23|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Yep! That what I remember about investigation after Fastnet. It was mentioned in many documents about sailboats stability (when I was looking into origami-boat stability and was educating myself on this subject). Basically, most reports about Fastnet disaster were about stability and seaworthiness of the boats. Modifications compromised stability and seaworthiness. Because we are talking about cruising sailboat, more important factors for ME is stability and seaworthiness - speed is less important factor than comfort... Which leads to a heavier displacement of the boat. This is why I like your idea about additional water ballast tanks. When sailboat loses mast, it become too stiff. This could be resolved by dumping some ballast. As well as to put more ballast to increase displacement of the boat during the storm. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > "Seaworthiness - The Forgotten Factor" by CA Marchaj is the definitive work > that looks at the Fastnet disaster to find solutions as to why boat designs that > had been seaworthy were redesigned for speed and lost their seaworthiness. It's > long, academic and builds the logical case with tank tests etc. so many people > find it boring. I had to read it twice through to really get the most out of > it, but it's worth it IMHO. Marchaj explains why this happened and how to avoid > it by re-designing the boats. Interestingly the designs at fault had been > abandoned earlier in the century for the same reasons, but everybody had > forgotten why or simply put on blinders and tried not to notice. | 30092|30042|2013-04-15 06:42:53|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|Marchaij also looks to another point besides seaworthyness, which he called "seakindlyness" (if I remember correctly). A lot of modernish boats (U-frame, fin-keel, broad booty-ones with spade-rudder lacking proper skeg-area mostly) will be abandoned long long before its seaworthyness actually will be troubled, only because of the boats very unkind behavior versus its crew in deteriorating conditions. A low aspect cornish pilot cutter for example was developped for many decades to meet the main aim of offshore waiting for customers in ANY sort of conditions, and those were additionally designed and laid out for being easily singlehanded back home in those very conditions after the pilot set foot aboard an incoming ship to pilot them. This cornish cutter will lie calm'n'cozy hove to, she won't drive her inmates insane by tossing them around but will have an assuring sort of movement for the sailors on most courses even ambitiously sailing instead of merely waiting. You pay for this with less agility in confined ports (those low aspect long-keelers actually are quite bitchy to stop or back under engine anyway, not to mention the complete impossibility of a predictable turnaround on the spot or manoeuvring under sail in tight holes) what forces better seamanship and well prethought manoeuvring, a thing the weekend sailors usually find a standart too hard to meet, which is why bow thrusters are increasingly fashionable even for easier hulls. You won't go as fast as the fat-bummed Tupperware in their best conditions either on the traditional cutter, a thing relativized quickly when those extraordinary fine weatherconditions are coupled with the weekends of a normal sailing season, (not to mention for a liveaboard). You have to cope with a lot of wetted surface, compared to the Tupperware at least, both for the heavier build and the seakindly underwater-lines, but one single storm ridden hove to under deck outweighs acres of wetted surface anyway. So why came this bootybummed Tupperware in fashion at all, given its seaworthyness, its seakindlyness, its endangered spade rudders, its vulnerable fins and its general requirements for more than only single crew to keep it afloat? Prices! And with those falling prices the generally customer profile for sailing boats changed vastly, what boosted further the price-crushing grp as the average material for huge amounts of small leisure yachts, well kept in the marina when weather wasn't convenient for the floating weekend-condo. Marchaij also stresses the IOR regatta formulas as a further explanation for the deteriorating sanity of hull-construction, but as a longterm racer and former boatbuilder I know that the formulas were changed towards fatbummed U-shapes merely to please the GRP-industry, for those U-shapes are way easier to snot together than a well skegged S-mainframe. Seakindlyness is, in my opinion, the real forgotten factor. A crew driven insane within a bootybummed grp-rollercoaster will tend to disembark already in conditions the cornish cutter crew still enjoys putting on the fire another log and having a second helping of stew with the grog while yarning. And the speed-thing ... well, aren't we longing to get on the water anyway? Why then trying to reach the other side of the pond as fast as possible? o.o2 ct G_B Am 15.04.2013 um 04:05 schrieb wild_explorer: > Yep! That what I remember about investigation after Fastnet. It was mentioned in many documents about sailboats stability (when I was looking into origami-boat stability and was educating myself on this subject). > > Basically, most reports about Fastnet disaster were about stability and seaworthiness of the boats. Modifications compromised stability and seaworthiness. > > Because we are talking about cruising sailboat, more important factors for ME is stability and seaworthiness - speed is less important factor than comfort... Which leads to a heavier displacement of the boat. > > This is why I like your idea about additional water ballast tanks. When sailboat loses mast, it become too stiff. This could be resolved by dumping some ballast. As well as to put more ballast to increase displacement of the boat during the storm. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > > > > "Seaworthiness - The Forgotten Factor" by CA Marchaj is the definitive work > > that looks at the Fastnet disaster to find solutions as to why boat designs that > > had been seaworthy were redesigned for speed and lost their seaworthiness. It's > > long, academic and builds the logical case with tank tests etc. so many people > > find it boring. I had to read it twice through to really get the most out of > > it, but it's worth it IMHO. Marchaj explains why this happened and how to avoid > > it by re-designing the boats. Interestingly the designs at fault had been > > abandoned earlier in the century for the same reasons, but everybody had > > forgotten why or simply put on blinders and tried not to notice. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30093|30042|2013-04-15 10:39:32|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|When I was looking how to estimate stability of origami-design, first thing I found was Ted Brewer formulas. Beside estimating stability of the boat, it includes formulas to estimate comfort factor, roll period and roll acceleration. Origami-boat's estimation looks good in all aspects. Navy did extensive research on what make crew seasick and even came up with bunch of formulas to verify new ship/boat designs at preliminary stage for "seakindlyness". So, looks like this is "forgotten factor" only for yacht industry ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > Marchaij also looks to another point besides seaworthyness, which he called "seakindlyness" (if I remember correctly). > | 30094|30042|2013-04-15 11:27:51|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|The forgotten factor only in the yacht industry .... that is bloody right. Navy has to be outthere in ANY conditions and the boys have to be alert and sound for fighting in any given moment, so their view won't skip seakindlyness. Same used to be a major point in fishing vessel-produktion, at least in local shipbuilding, for fishermen do try around a lot before they change to a "revolutionary new" design. It's their entire live which becomes easier or more difficult depending on the lines they chose. So these points of view were skipped in Yacht-market because of the change from (real) sailingyachts to floating condos, sold with sails as an extra gadget .... Cheers G_B Am 15.04.2013 um 16:39 schrieb wild_explorer: > When I was looking how to estimate stability of origami-design, first thing I found was Ted Brewer formulas. Beside estimating stability of the boat, it includes formulas to estimate comfort factor, roll period and roll acceleration. Origami-boat's estimation looks good in all aspects. > > Navy did extensive research on what make crew seasick and even came up with bunch of formulas to verify new ship/boat designs at preliminary stage for "seakindlyness". So, looks like this is "forgotten factor" only for yacht industry ;)) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > > > Marchaij also looks to another point besides seaworthyness, which he called "seakindlyness" (if I remember correctly). > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30095|30042|2013-04-15 16:26:41|brentswain38|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|The reason I get away with a short cord is because the leading edge of a keel does 90% of the work in reducing leeway. I've seen much shorter twin keels, but with doubtful structural integrity due to the difficulty in making their roots strong enough, and far more prone to fouling anchor rodes. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, I am considering 2 options now... After banging my head against the wall for several days to keep draft as low as possible, I came up with 2 revisions: > > - Single Long keel with root chord about 19ft > - Tween with root chord about 16 ft > > Single Long keel will require "slide under" installation. Twins could be fitted through the slot (I do not see another option). > > Such long Twins will require additional extension (simply keel made higher than necessary) into the hull for reinforcement. Reinforcement: > > - Placing tank top between keels (where keel meets the hull) and another tank top running from hull sides over keel tops with transverse baffles between keels. > - Another option is to make transverse baffles between keels running from top of the keels to the bottom/Centerline of the hull, but only with one tank top (sectional) from side-to-side of the hull over keel's tops. Extensions of Twin keels could be used as fuel tanks. > > This arrangement will avoid any problems with long Twins stress and weight distribution along the hull. > > I think that "bad" reputation of twin keels is the result of inability to fit twin keels to any hull. It may not be a good idea "just put it in" because someone decided to do it. Hull should be designed to accept twins. > > Your hull shape is different - it will naturally take twin keels. May be that why you can get away with half chord length for twins compare to single keel. > > Personally, I do not worry much about excessive wetted surface of Twins. I am not building racing sailboat... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > The single keel version of my 36 has a 12 ft long keel at the root cord, and I have no problem running it thru a slot . I use the same 8 ft by 12 ft sheet for either the twin keel or the single keel,as each of the twin keels is half the size of the single keel. > > Being upright when the hull is heeled 25 degrees gives each of them the same lateral resistance as the much bigger single keel. They are each 100% more efficient than a single keel heeled 25 degrees , in terms of lateral resistance. Designers repeatedly missing this point is why twin keels have a bad reputation, for excessive wetted surface. The total wetted surface of my 36 is the same, whether single or twin keels. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, I was unable to make keel shorter than 12ft (root chord) for my hull. For different versions (twin, fin, long) it will be about 12-15ft long to keep acceptable draft and depends on foil used for the keel. > > > > > > So, I need to have keel with volume enough at least for the ballast with the shape which keep boat balanced and with span allowing reasonable draft. It will give moderate aspect ratio for fin and twin keels and low aspect for long keel. > > > > > > It is probably better to describe single low aspect keel I have in mind as "Long keel", because there is some space between trailing edge of the keel and leading edge of the rudder. > > > > > > My Twin keels have almost the same length as fin keel (may be slightly shorter). This is because it is need to have the same keel's volume distribution for hull's balance. That means, I will have to make 2 pretty long keels for Twin version instead of 1 for Single Fin or Single Long version. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > How long is your keel? > > > > > > > > > > | 30096|30042|2013-04-15 16:39:07|brentswain38|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|A friend sailed an English design twin keeler across the Atlantic. In the West Indies he sailed alongside a sistership which had a single keel The rolling of the twin keeler was drastically less than the single keeler and a much slower roll. When a boat rolls the centre of the rolling motion is the keel around which it rolls. With twin keels, each resists the other becomoing th ecnetre, and roling is much less. It severely dampens rolling. This is why cruise ships use bilge keels, to make them more comfortable. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Can someone compare sea motion of Twin keel they love with Island Packet? > > Seams like those sailboats stick with long keels. I am trying to reduce draft even more (compare to low draft of tween keels), and I am getting similar keel which is used on Island Packet. > > Any comments from some people who sailed both? > | 30097|30042|2013-04-15 19:35:05|wild_explorer|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|I understand the benefit of twin keels. Unfortunately, in my case, I just cannot make it shorter - it changes underwater profile and makes boat less comfortable. I have to keep almost the same length of twins almost as the length of single keel - just need to split volume, alter shape and use different foil. Even this changes underwater profile, but acceptable. Correction: I can make tween keel shorter, but I do not like how underwater profile of the hull looks like (from hydrostatic point of view). As I know, fishing and cruise ships use stabilizers - which are long VERY low aspect keels (could be described as long strips). It does not alter noticeably underwater profile of the hull. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A friend sailed an English design twin keeler across the Atlantic. In the West Indies he sailed alongside a sistership which had a single keel > The rolling of the twin keeler was drastically less than the single keeler and a much slower roll. > When a boat rolls the centre of the rolling motion is the keel around which it rolls. With twin keels, each resists the other becomoing th ecnetre, and roling is much less. It severely dampens rolling. This is why cruise ships use bilge keels, to make them more comfortable. > | 30098|30098|2013-04-15 20:29:01|wild_explorer|Tween Keels|If someone thinks that I am picking on Twins - I am really NOT. I even have lines drawn on my hull for Twins installation ;) I found something interesting about Twins and I want to give the group some brain food... Twin keels made from symmetrical foil and as Brent position it on the hull (along CL but offset from vertical), have resulting ASYMMETRIC profile AND have an angle of attack about 1.5 deg. So.... When boat is on even keel, looks like Twins are pushing the hull upward... I am not an air/hydro wings designer and this is just my speculation. I can put image of resulting cross-section profile in file section if someone can professionally comment what such foil's profile really does. I suspect, when boat heels, this angle of attack will change and will be different for each keel (same only when boat is on even keel).| 30099|30098|2013-04-16 10:29:04|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Tween Keels|There is an interesting thread on boatdesign.net about twin keel design and post number 39 contains a download of Lord Riverdale's research that was incorporated into the BlueBird of Thorn: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/twin-keel-research-5315.html Andy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > If someone thinks that I am picking on Twins - I am really NOT. I even have lines drawn on my hull for Twins installation ;) > > I found something interesting about Twins and I want to give the group some brain food... > > Twin keels made from symmetrical foil and as Brent position it on the hull (along CL but offset from vertical), have resulting ASYMMETRIC profile AND have an angle of attack about 1.5 deg. > > So.... When boat is on even keel, looks like Twins are pushing the hull upward... I am not an air/hydro wings designer and this is just my speculation. I can put image of resulting cross-section profile in file section if someone can professionally comment what such foil's profile really does. > > I suspect, when boat heels, this angle of attack will change and will be different for each keel (same only when boat is on even keel). > | 30100|30042|2013-04-16 11:06:21|mkriley48|Re: Long (low aspect) Single keel installation|very well said. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Giuseppe Bergman wrote: > > Marchaij also looks to another point besides seaworthyness, which he called "seakindlyness" (if I remember correctly). > | 30101|30098|2013-04-16 15:12:32|brentswain38|Re: Tween Keels|I had a look at that discussion. Like most discusions on that site , most comments were based on numbers juggling, with zero hands on experience or practicality. The toe in is a myth, based on tank tests, which propel a hull from a fixed point , completely irrelevant to a sailing hull, which is propelled by sails. Sheet your sails in an extra 1.5 degrees, point her higher and you have your 1.5 degree toe in on your leeward keel. Toeing the leeward keel in means it tends to point your bow into a broach when sailing with the wind on the quarter and you are rolling heavily , reducing directional stability. Runing keels verticaly eliminates the advantage of having your leward keel vertical when heeled 25 degrees , which increases its lateral resistance by 100% enabling it to be half the size of a single keel, drasticaly reducing wetted surface, and making the area betwen them much easier to clean.It also increases the interaction betwen the keels and between the keels and the hull, as water tries to push between them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > There is an interesting thread on boatdesign.net about twin keel design and post number 39 contains a download of Lord Riverdale's research that was incorporated into the BlueBird of Thorn: > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/twin-keel-research-5315.html > > Andy > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > If someone thinks that I am picking on Twins - I am really NOT. I even have lines drawn on my hull for Twins installation ;) > > > > I found something interesting about Twins and I want to give the group some brain food... > > > > Twin keels made from symmetrical foil and as Brent position it on the hull (along CL but offset from vertical), have resulting ASYMMETRIC profile AND have an angle of attack about 1.5 deg. > > > > So.... When boat is on even keel, looks like Twins are pushing the hull upward... I am not an air/hydro wings designer and this is just my speculation. I can put image of resulting cross-section profile in file section if someone can professionally comment what such foil's profile really does. > > > > I suspect, when boat heels, this angle of attack will change and will be different for each keel (same only when boat is on even keel). > > > | 30102|30098|2013-04-16 15:23:39|brentswain38|Re: Tween Keels|I originaly copied the profile of the tank tested Westerly Centaur for my first twin keels. What tank testing doesnt tell you is that your anchor rode constantly fouls around the trailing edge of such keels , wont come off and puts you in a potentialy dangerous situation, a point I had to warn Patrick Bray about when he had such a profile on one off his designs featured in Pacific yachting.Judging by the slope he now gives ot the trailing edges of his twin keels he got the message. Many designers, who worship only what tank tests and numbers juggling tell them, havent . Pointing out such practical matters and considerations is what got me kicked off boat design.net They want only numbers juggling. I went from asymetrical to symetrical twin keels, and the difference was zero. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I had a look at that discussion. Like most discusions on that site , most comments were based on numbers juggling, with zero hands on experience or practicality. > The toe in is a myth, based on tank tests, which propel a hull from a fixed point , completely irrelevant to a sailing hull, which is propelled by sails. Sheet your sails in an extra 1.5 degrees, point her higher and you have your 1.5 degree toe in on your leeward keel. > Toeing the leeward keel in means it tends to point your bow into a broach when sailing with the wind on the quarter and you are rolling heavily , reducing directional stability. > Runing keels verticaly eliminates the advantage of having your leward keel vertical when heeled 25 degrees , which increases its lateral resistance by 100% enabling it to be half the size of a single keel, drasticaly reducing wetted surface, and making the area betwen them much easier to clean.It also increases the interaction betwen the keels and between the keels and the hull, as water tries to push between them. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > > > There is an interesting thread on boatdesign.net about twin keel design and post number 39 contains a download of Lord Riverdale's research that was incorporated into the BlueBird of Thorn: > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/twin-keel-research-5315.html > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > If someone thinks that I am picking on Twins - I am really NOT. I even have lines drawn on my hull for Twins installation ;) > > > > > > I found something interesting about Twins and I want to give the group some brain food... > > > > > > Twin keels made from symmetrical foil and as Brent position it on the hull (along CL but offset from vertical), have resulting ASYMMETRIC profile AND have an angle of attack about 1.5 deg. > > > > > > So.... When boat is on even keel, looks like Twins are pushing the hull upward... I am not an air/hydro wings designer and this is just my speculation. I can put image of resulting cross-section profile in file section if someone can professionally comment what such foil's profile really does. > > > > > > I suspect, when boat heels, this angle of attack will change and will be different for each keel (same only when boat is on even keel). > > > > > > | 30103|30098|2013-04-16 15:44:20|brentswain38|Re: Tween Keels|Far too many designers are completely unable to comprehend anything which cant be expressed in numbers.It's completely beyond their mental capacity. They are a poor choice for a cruising boat design. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I originaly copied the profile of the tank tested Westerly Centaur for my first twin keels. What tank testing doesnt tell you is that your anchor rode constantly fouls around the trailing edge of such keels , wont come off and puts you in a potentialy dangerous situation, a point I had to warn Patrick Bray about when he had such a profile on one off his designs featured in Pacific yachting.Judging by the slope he now gives ot the trailing edges of his twin keels he got the message. Many designers, who worship only what tank tests and numbers juggling tell them, havent . > Pointing out such practical matters and considerations is what got me kicked off boat design.net > They want only numbers juggling. > I went from asymetrical to symetrical twin keels, and the difference was zero. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I had a look at that discussion. Like most discusions on that site , most comments were based on numbers juggling, with zero hands on experience or practicality. > > The toe in is a myth, based on tank tests, which propel a hull from a fixed point , completely irrelevant to a sailing hull, which is propelled by sails. Sheet your sails in an extra 1.5 degrees, point her higher and you have your 1.5 degree toe in on your leeward keel. > > Toeing the leeward keel in means it tends to point your bow into a broach when sailing with the wind on the quarter and you are rolling heavily , reducing directional stability. > > Runing keels verticaly eliminates the advantage of having your leward keel vertical when heeled 25 degrees , which increases its lateral resistance by 100% enabling it to be half the size of a single keel, drasticaly reducing wetted surface, and making the area betwen them much easier to clean.It also increases the interaction betwen the keels and between the keels and the hull, as water tries to push between them. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > > > > > > There is an interesting thread on boatdesign.net about twin keel design and post number 39 contains a download of Lord Riverdale's research that was incorporated into the BlueBird of Thorn: > > > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/twin-keel-research-5315.html > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > > > If someone thinks that I am picking on Twins - I am really NOT. I even have lines drawn on my hull for Twins installation ;) > > > > > > > > I found something interesting about Twins and I want to give the group some brain food... > > > > > > > > Twin keels made from symmetrical foil and as Brent position it on the hull (along CL but offset from vertical), have resulting ASYMMETRIC profile AND have an angle of attack about 1.5 deg. > > > > > > > > So.... When boat is on even keel, looks like Twins are pushing the hull upward... I am not an air/hydro wings designer and this is just my speculation. I can put image of resulting cross-section profile in file section if someone can professionally comment what such foil's profile really does. > > > > > > > > I suspect, when boat heels, this angle of attack will change and will be different for each keel (same only when boat is on even keel). > > > > > > > > > > | 30104|30098|2013-04-17 00:35:32|wild_explorer|Re: Tween Keels|I found that article about tween keels evolution about 3 years ago. Interesting reading... I am trying to stay away form bias of boatdesign.net Especially about keel shape. I prefer professional opinion... I would rather ask NASA engineers who works with high school students ;) Long time ago I was involved in the project where people without education (or degree) in our field, had some ideas or prototypes (not boat related) and claimed that it works. Your job was to test or make/test prototypes. If it did not work or we could explain why it works (based on our knowledge) - it was easy. Hard part was when it works, but we could not explain why... But those ideas and prototypes (which worked) were used. Usually, after extensive testing or research we were able to explain why it works. It was just lack of knowledge of people we had. After that project, I am not jumping to any conclusion because I do not understand how it works - I do more research ;)) Origami-boat can use simple shape symmetrical foils(max at 50% chord) for keels which is easy to make in origami. These foils do not have much data to operate with, but they exist and were tested. P.S. Boat design is compromise - you gain somewhere, you lose somewhere. There is no "magic bullet" or "free cheese". You just need to know what you gain/lose. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > There is an interesting thread on boatdesign.net about twin keel design and post number 39 contains a download of Lord Riverdale's research that was incorporated into the BlueBird of Thorn: > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/twin-keel-research-5315.html > > Andy | 30105|30098|2013-04-17 01:36:29|Paul Wilson|Re: Tween Keels|The thing I really like about the single keel versus twin keel is the amount of tankage you can place in it. My keel is slightly larger than shown on the plans. I have approx 125 imperial gallons of water and 90 of fuel in mine. It places the weight down low and in the center of the boat where it belongs. The other boats I have seen with twin keels have ended up putting tanks either under the settees or under the cockpit. I am not sure if they did a good job of putting in the ballast though. Not doing a clean lead pour or using concrete and steel ballast can really add volume. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 17/04/2013 4:35 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > I found that article about tween keels evolution about 3 years ago. > Interesting reading... I am trying to stay away form bias of > boatdesign.net Especially about keel shape. I prefer professional > opinion... I would rather ask NASA engineers who works with high > school students ;) > > Long time ago I was involved in the project where people without > education (or degree) in our field, had some ideas or prototypes (not > boat related) and claimed that it works. Your job was to test or > make/test prototypes. If it did not work or we could explain why it > works (based on our knowledge) - it was easy. Hard part was when it > works, but we could not explain why... But those ideas and prototypes > (which worked) were used. Usually, after extensive testing or research > we were able to explain why it works. It was just lack of knowledge of > people we had. After that project, I am not jumping to any conclusion > because I do not understand how it works - I do more research ;)) > > Origami-boat can use simple shape symmetrical foils(max at 50% chord) > for keels which is easy to make in origami. These foils do not have > much data to operate with, but they exist and were tested. > > P.S. Boat design is compromise - you gain somewhere, you lose > somewhere. There is no "magic bullet" or "free cheese". You just need > to know what you gain/lose. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "mr_lugnuts_2007" > wrote: > > > > > > There is an interesting thread on boatdesign.net about twin keel > design and post number 39 contains a download of Lord Riverdale's > research that was incorporated into the BlueBird of Thorn: > > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/twin-keel-research-5315.html > > > > Andy > > | 30106|30098|2013-04-17 11:14:07|wild_explorer|Re: Tween Keels|Does this foil looks like what Brent is using? http://airfoiltools.com/airfoil/details?airfoil=naca001035-il This foil was in development/testing in around 1940-1950? Not much information/data about it (at least hard to find). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > Origami-boat can use simple shape symmetrical foils(max at 50% chord) for keels which is easy to make in origami. These foils do not have much data to operate with, but they exist and were tested. > | 30107|30098|2013-04-17 15:59:44|Paul Wilson|Re: Tween Keels|I think the section you are showing is too sharp on the leading edge and would stall easily. Here is a very good article on foil sections and foil design. When you read the article, you come to the conclusion that the simple sections are the best for relatively slow speed cruising boats. http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Keel%20and%20Rudder%20Design.pdf >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 18/04/2013 3:14 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > Does this foil looks like what Brent is using? > > http://airfoiltools.com/airfoil/details?airfoil=naca001035-il > > This foil was in development/testing in around 1940-1950? Not much > information/data about it (at least hard to find). > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "wild_explorer" > wrote: > > > > > > Origami-boat can use simple shape symmetrical foils(max at 50% > chord) for keels which is easy to make in origami. These foils do not > have much data to operate with, but they exist and were tested. > > > > | 30108|30098|2013-04-17 16:44:02|brentswain38|Re: Tween Keels|I build in a 90 gallon tank between the keels, a 40 gallon fuel tank behind that , under the pilot house floor and a gravity feed day tank of ten gallons under the front end of the cockpit. No problem. On boat design.net they suggested that I make the centreline totally useless as tankage, forcing the tanks to go in much higher, up ,then I should worry about stability. Don't expect to find much intelligent life on that site. I think much of the bad reputation for twin keelers is the boats which had huge , vertical keels, the same size as single keels put on existing hull shapes, with little logic applied. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The thing I really like about the single keel versus twin keel is the > amount of tankage you can place in it. My keel is slightly larger than > shown on the plans. I have approx 125 imperial gallons of water and 90 > of fuel in mine. It places the weight down low and in the center of the > boat where it belongs. The other boats I have seen with twin keels have > ended up putting tanks either under the settees or under the cockpit. I > am not sure if they did a good job of putting in the ballast though. Not > doing a clean lead pour or using concrete and steel ballast can really > add volume. > > Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 17/04/2013 4:35 p.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > I found that article about tween keels evolution about 3 years ago. > > Interesting reading... I am trying to stay away form bias of > > boatdesign.net Especially about keel shape. I prefer professional > > opinion... I would rather ask NASA engineers who works with high > > school students ;) > > > > Long time ago I was involved in the project where people without > > education (or degree) in our field, had some ideas or prototypes (not > > boat related) and claimed that it works. Your job was to test or > > make/test prototypes. If it did not work or we could explain why it > > works (based on our knowledge) - it was easy. Hard part was when it > > works, but we could not explain why... But those ideas and prototypes > > (which worked) were used. Usually, after extensive testing or research > > we were able to explain why it works. It was just lack of knowledge of > > people we had. After that project, I am not jumping to any conclusion > > because I do not understand how it works - I do more research ;)) > > > > Origami-boat can use simple shape symmetrical foils(max at 50% chord) > > for keels which is easy to make in origami. These foils do not have > > much data to operate with, but they exist and were tested. > > > > P.S. Boat design is compromise - you gain somewhere, you lose > > somewhere. There is no "magic bullet" or "free cheese". You just need > > to know what you gain/lose. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "mr_lugnuts_2007" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > There is an interesting thread on boatdesign.net about twin keel > > design and post number 39 contains a download of Lord Riverdale's > > research that was incorporated into the BlueBird of Thorn: > > > > > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/twin-keel-research-5315.html > > > > > > Andy > > > > > | 30109|30098|2013-04-17 16:45:32|brentswain38|Re: Tween Keels|Pretty close, but with a more rounded leading edge, to avoid stalling. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Does this foil looks like what Brent is using? > > http://airfoiltools.com/airfoil/details?airfoil=naca001035-il > > This foil was in development/testing in around 1940-1950? Not much information/data about it (at least hard to find). > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > Origami-boat can use simple shape symmetrical foils(max at 50% chord) for keels which is easy to make in origami. These foils do not have much data to operate with, but they exist and were tested. > > > | 30110|30098|2013-04-17 16:50:46|brentswain38|Re: Tween Keels|Eric Sponberg and Dudley Dix used to put some great info on Boatdesign.net before the nutbars hijacked that site. Dix quit when his postings complimenting Ganley designs resulted in him getting anonymous threats . A friend who backed me up also got anonymous threats . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I think the section you are showing is too sharp on the leading edge and > would stall easily. > > Here is a very good article on foil sections and foil design. When you > read the article, you come to the conclusion that the simple sections > are the best for relatively slow speed cruising boats. > > http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Keel%20and%20Rudder%20Design.pdf > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 18/04/2013 3:14 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > Does this foil looks like what Brent is using? > > > > http://airfoiltools.com/airfoil/details?airfoil=naca001035-il > > > > This foil was in development/testing in around 1940-1950? Not much > > information/data about it (at least hard to find). > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "wild_explorer" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Origami-boat can use simple shape symmetrical foils(max at 50% > > chord) for keels which is easy to make in origami. These foils do not > > have much data to operate with, but they exist and were tested. > > > > > > > > | 30111|30098|2013-04-17 18:35:19|Paul Wilson|Re: Tween Keels|The article is quite old....from a time when you actually got good info in sailing magazines. Most of the magazines are full of crap now, hijacked by advertisers and publishers who can't figure out why their circulation keeps going down. I don't even bother opening them in a news stand. I picked up a pile of 30 and 40 year old yachting magazines from NZ....great stuff. People doing things, experimenting and talking about what they discovered and where they went rather than what they needed to buy. I used to go on boatdesign.net but gave up....too many flame wars. Anyone who would threaten another over some internet postings needs to get a life. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 18/04/2013 8:50 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > Eric Sponberg and Dudley Dix used to put some great info on > Boatdesign.net before the nutbars hijacked that site. Dix quit when > his postings complimenting Ganley designs resulted in him getting > anonymous threats . A friend who backed me up also got anonymous threats . | 30112|30098|2013-04-17 20:33:47|wild_explorer|Re: Tween Keels|Well... I just did some resistance/speed prediction (speed - thrust needed) for Single Low Long Keel and Twins (which have almost the same length as Long keel, but half volume) for the same hull. Single Long Keel: 7kn - 6.7kW 7.5kn - 10.2kW Twin Keels (almost the same length as Long keel, almost double wetted area) 7kn - 7.2kW 7.5kn - 10.8kW So, I do not see much difference (speed loss) at cruising speed. Many researchers noticed that twin keels improve transverse motion, in trade off for comfort in longitudinal motion (especially twins with short chord). Longitudinal motion is more noticeable at anchor. Same complain about single fin keels vs long keels. As always... You gain something, you lose something. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I think much of the bad reputation for twin keelers is the boats which had huge , vertical keels, the same size as single keels put on existing hull shapes, with little logic applied. > | 30113|30098|2013-04-17 21:51:53|Paul Wilson|Re: Tween Keels|Twin keels are probably faster when you can easily run your boat up on a beach and give it a scrub before a long passage. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. | 30114|30098|2013-04-17 22:37:34|Aaron|Re: Tween Keels|How do you double the wetted area with the same amount of steel? Aaron ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:33 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tween Keels   Well... I just did some resistance/speed prediction (speed - thrust needed) for Single Low Long Keel and Twins (which have almost the same length as Long keel, but half volume) for the same hull. Single Long Keel: 7kn - 6.7kW 7.5kn - 10.2kW Twin Keels (almost the same length as Long keel, almost double wetted area) 7kn - 7.2kW 7.5kn - 10.8kW So, I do not see much difference (speed loss) at cruising speed. Many researchers noticed that twin keels improve transverse motion, in trade off for comfort in longitudinal motion (especially twins with short chord). Longitudinal motion is more noticeable at anchor. Same complain about single fin keels vs long keels. As always... You gain something, you lose something. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I think much of the bad reputation for twin keelers is the boats which had huge , vertical keels, the same size as single keels put on existing hull shapes, with little logic applied. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30115|30098|2013-04-17 23:26:06|wild_explorer|Re: Tween Keels|I have different hull and I use different keels than Brent (single and twins). Twins have almost double wetted area than single keel and almost double amount of steel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > How do you double the wetted area with the same amount of steel? > Aaron | 30116|1184|2013-04-18 05:04:44|Jonathan Stevens|Twin Keels|Maurice Griffiths, English Yacht Designer of shallow draft yachts, was a fan of twin keels. As well as the less draft argument he found that the motion of a twin keel boat was kinder. I don't think he used any particular foils either. Having changed the rudder and centreboard on my dinghy for a modern design foil, I have noticed a difference and at all speeds, not just flat out. So I have binned the twins I had already made for Eighteen and have made new to the foil section. I have made a new skeg too with the same shape. It would have been a lot easier if I were not a designer by profession and had bought someone else's design; the boat would be on the water by now. The constant search for perfection is not always a good attribute! Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30117|30098|2013-04-18 08:59:20|ka0tp|Re: Tween Keels|When searching the Internet and boat mags, the only credible complaint about Twin Keels, was that when Hove to, a Single Keel as it heels, starts to slip with the wave and wind, easing off the forces on it. A Twin keel, tries to do its job of preventing slide slip a lot better and tends to "trip" the boat, under extreme conditions. This may be prevented with a side slung Sea anchor like the Pardeys often reccommend. PS. Hey Wild_explorer, when can us locals get a tour of your boat under construction? Tom Popp - KA0TP Gladstone, Oregon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30118|1184|2013-04-18 10:11:06|wild_explorer|Re: Twin Keels|There is no questions about benefits of twin keels for dumping transverse motion. But need to remember about longitudinal motion as well... I am still thinking about that one in case of twins. Reducing draft? May be for a sailboat compare to fin keel... What do you mean under "modern foil"? Did you use some foil before, but switched to "modern" one? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Maurice Griffiths, English Yacht Designer of shallow draft yachts, was a fan > of twin keels. As well as the less draft argument he found that the motion > of a twin keel boat was kinder. I don't think he used any particular foils > either. > > Having changed the rudder and centreboard on my dinghy for a modern design > foil, I have noticed a difference and at all speeds, not just flat out. So I > have binned the twins I had already made for Eighteen and have made new to > the foil section. I have made a new skeg too with the same shape. > | 30119|30098|2013-04-18 10:24:10|wild_explorer|Re: Tween Keels|There are more creditable complains about Twins if you look hard enough. The main benefit of twins, that one of keels always does the job if boat heels, when single keel (especially low aspect) can be completely blocked by the hull reducing keel performance. P.S. Tom, just give me a call if you want to take a look at my boat ;) I allowed to have visitors only on weekdays though ;( --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > When searching the Internet and boat mags, the only credible complaint > about Twin Keels, was that when Hove to, a Single Keel as it heels, starts to > slip with the wave and wind, easing off the forces on it. > A Twin keel, tries to do its job of preventing slide slip a lot better and > tends to "trip" the boat, under extreme conditions. > > This may be prevented with a side slung Sea anchor like the Pardeys often > reccommend. > > PS. Hey Wild_explorer, when can us locals get a tour of your boat under > construction? > > Tom Popp - KA0TP > Gladstone, Oregon | 30120|1184|2013-04-18 11:16:24|wild_explorer|Re: Twin Keels|My strong believe (at this point), that it is need to look at the boat's hydrostatics as whole (with keel, skeg, rudder). In my opinion, it is NOT so important WHAT foil, keel shape and size you use, but if you use CORRECT one for the hull. Same keel may not work well on different hull. This may explain why different keel size, shape and foil makes BIG difference in boat behavior. P.S. I read a book about how custom sailboat ("old style") was built and what complains owner had for that boat (with single keel). At the middle of the voyage keel was corrected and it dramatically improved boat handling. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > I don't think he used any particular foils > either. > | 30121|30098|2013-04-18 22:20:26|brentswain38|Re: Tween Keels|As each of the twin keels has double the lateral resistance when heeled, each one of the twin keels only has to be half the wetted surface of a single keel. So the wetted surface of a twin keeler is the same as for a single long fin keel, and much less than that of a full length keel.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Well... I just did some resistance/speed prediction (speed - thrust needed) for Single Low Long Keel and Twins (which have almost the same length as Long keel, but half volume) for the same hull. > > Single Long Keel: > > 7kn - 6.7kW > 7.5kn - 10.2kW > > Twin Keels (almost the same length as Long keel, almost double wetted area) > > 7kn - 7.2kW > 7.5kn - 10.8kW > > So, I do not see much difference (speed loss) at cruising speed. > > Many researchers noticed that twin keels improve transverse motion, in trade off for comfort in longitudinal motion (especially twins with short chord). Longitudinal motion is more noticeable at anchor. Same complain about single fin keels vs long keels. As always... You gain something, you lose something. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I think much of the bad reputation for twin keelers is the boats which had huge , vertical keels, the same size as single keels put on existing hull shapes, with little logic applied. > > > | 30122|30098|2013-04-18 22:24:43|brentswain38|Re: Tween Keels|While the tripping action of a twin keels is higher, it is also higher up on the hull, reducing the tripping tendency. Which is the most prevalent effect is anyone's guess. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > When searching the Internet and boat mags, the only credible complaint > about Twin Keels, was that when Hove to, a Single Keel as it heels, starts to > slip with the wave and wind, easing off the forces on it. > A Twin keel, tries to do its job of preventing slide slip a lot better and > tends to "trip" the boat, under extreme conditions. > > This may be prevented with a side slung Sea anchor like the Pardeys often > reccommend. > > PS. Hey Wild_explorer, when can us locals get a tour of your boat under > construction? > > Tom Popp - KA0TP > Gladstone, Oregon > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30123|1184|2013-04-18 22:26:56|brentswain38|Re: Twin Keels|Mine, being ahead of the LCB, seem to have a dampening effect on pitching as well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > There is no questions about benefits of twin keels for dumping transverse motion. But need to remember about longitudinal motion as well... I am still thinking about that one in case of twins. Reducing draft? May be for a sailboat compare to fin keel... > > What do you mean under "modern foil"? Did you use some foil before, but switched to "modern" one? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > > > Maurice Griffiths, English Yacht Designer of shallow draft yachts, was a fan > > of twin keels. As well as the less draft argument he found that the motion > > of a twin keel boat was kinder. I don't think he used any particular foils > > either. > > > > Having changed the rudder and centreboard on my dinghy for a modern design > > foil, I have noticed a difference and at all speeds, not just flat out. So I > > have binned the twins I had already made for Eighteen and have made new to > > the foil section. I have made a new skeg too with the same shape. > > > | 30124|30124|2013-04-19 00:18:51|wild_explorer|Marking lines over gray zinc-reach primer|I found that black permanent marker with fine point (like Sharpie) works very good when you need some highly visible marking on pre-primed plate. I was using scriber, soapstone, paint marker, etc. So far, permanent marker works best when you need to make some permanent notes or lines for joining parts. It works over scribed lines or soapstone lines (when you are sure everything is correct). If welding smoke goes over the marking, you simply brush off the smoke with wire brush - marking is still there. Very useful for deck installation. Allows to draw deck lines before welding bulwark pipe to the pattern. I did not try permanent marker with other colors, but I think it should work as well. Cons: Hard to remove. Be sure you make a mark in right place. When you press marker tip hard over plate surface when making a line, the tip can be damaged/sanded-off by rough surface of the plate. Pros: Cheap, available almost everywhere, high visibility, possible to make very narrow lines| 30125|30125|2013-04-19 05:01:29|Jonathan Stevens|Modern Foils|My dinghy (Gull) used to have flat ply with a bit of a softened front and champhered trailing edge to both centreboard and rudder. I have Michael Storer's design for a Puddle Duck Racer and used his foil design. Jonathan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30126|30098|2013-04-19 10:53:58|scott|Re: Tween Keels|if your adding that much weight in steel then subtract the lead weight out of the ballast and it will give you a little more room for tankage :) scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I have different hull and I use different keels than Brent (single and twins). Twins have almost double wetted area than single keel and almost double amount of steel. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > > > > > How do you double the wetted area with the same amount of steel? > > Aaron > | 30127|30125|2013-04-19 11:42:55|wild_explorer|Re: Modern Foils|NASA has free Java based FoilSimulator for download (no installation needed, just unzip it) - works in Web-browser. It allows to compare flat plate to foils, show streamlines, allows to change density of media, change foil and more. Very educational toy, but aspect ratio should be >= 1 There are symmetrical foils with low Reynolds # - should be better for boat application.| 30128|30098|2013-04-19 11:49:39|wild_explorer|Re: Tween Keels|Not really. It mostly add only weight - free volume is almost the same. My Twins have less total volume than single keel. But you are correct, total added weight will be weight of the steel for the keel/keels + ballast. That why I like (from practical point of view) Brent's idea to use the same amount of steel to make single or twin keel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > if your adding that much weight in steel then subtract the lead weight out of the ballast and it will give you a little more room for tankage :) > scott > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > I have different hull and I use different keels than Brent (single and twins). Twins have almost double wetted area than single keel and almost double amount of steel. > > | 30129|30124|2013-04-19 18:17:25|David|Re: Marking lines over gray zinc-reach primer|I've found that permanent markers will bleed through paint if not removed prior to painting. It could be an entirely different situation though with epoxy paints and multiple applications as on a boat. I don't have any experience with that type of application yet. Dave --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I found that black permanent marker with fine point (like Sharpie) works very good when you need some highly visible marking on pre-primed plate. > > I was using scriber, soapstone, paint marker, etc. So far, permanent marker works best when you need to make some permanent notes or lines for joining parts. It works over scribed lines or soapstone lines (when you are sure everything is correct). If welding smoke goes over the marking, you simply brush off the smoke with wire brush - marking is still there. Very useful for deck installation. Allows to draw deck lines before welding bulwark pipe to the pattern. > > I did not try permanent marker with other colors, but I think it should work as well. > > Cons: Hard to remove. Be sure you make a mark in right place. When you press marker tip hard over plate surface when making a line, the tip can be damaged/sanded-off by rough surface of the plate. > Pros: Cheap, available almost everywhere, high visibility, possible to make very narrow lines > | 30130|30124|2013-04-19 18:23:35|brentswain38|Re: Marking lines over gray zinc-reach primer|Epoxy tar bleeds thru colour top coats . The solution? Give her two colour coats over epoxy, wet on wet, then let it harden for several weeks. Then you can put whatever colour you want on it, even white, and have no bleed thru. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > > I've found that permanent markers will bleed through paint if not removed prior to painting. It could be an entirely different situation though with epoxy paints and multiple applications as on a boat. I don't have any experience with that type of application yet. > > Dave > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > I found that black permanent marker with fine point (like Sharpie) works very good when you need some highly visible marking on pre-primed plate. > > > > I was using scriber, soapstone, paint marker, etc. So far, permanent marker works best when you need to make some permanent notes or lines for joining parts. It works over scribed lines or soapstone lines (when you are sure everything is correct). If welding smoke goes over the marking, you simply brush off the smoke with wire brush - marking is still there. Very useful for deck installation. Allows to draw deck lines before welding bulwark pipe to the pattern. > > > > I did not try permanent marker with other colors, but I think it should work as well. > > > > Cons: Hard to remove. Be sure you make a mark in right place. When you press marker tip hard over plate surface when making a line, the tip can be damaged/sanded-off by rough surface of the plate. > > Pros: Cheap, available almost everywhere, high visibility, possible to make very narrow lines > > > | 30131|30124|2013-04-19 19:31:25|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Marking lines over gray zinc-reach primer|A little hint here. The lighter you press the darker the mark! A little counter-intuitive, but I find it really works to use a very light touch with markers. If they stop working, scribbling with a very light touch will restart them. Pressing hard just mashes the tip. Gary H. Lucas From: wild_explorer Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 12:18 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Marking lines over gray zinc-reach primer I found that black permanent marker with fine point (like Sharpie) works very good when you need some highly visible marking on pre-primed plate. I was using scriber, soapstone, paint marker, etc. So far, permanent marker works best when you need to make some permanent notes or lines for joining parts. It works over scribed lines or soapstone lines (when you are sure everything is correct). If welding smoke goes over the marking, you simply brush off the smoke with wire brush - marking is still there. Very useful for deck installation. Allows to draw deck lines before welding bulwark pipe to the pattern. I did not try permanent marker with other colors, but I think it should work as well. Cons: Hard to remove. Be sure you make a mark in right place. When you press marker tip hard over plate surface when making a line, the tip can be damaged/sanded-off by rough surface of the plate. Pros: Cheap, available almost everywhere, high visibility, possible to make very narrow lines Gary H. Lucas Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30132|30124|2013-04-19 20:01:14|Paul Wilson|Re: Marking lines over gray zinc-reach primer|And never use a common pencil on aluminum or galvanized steel. Due to galvanic action the carbon or graphite is very corrosive and can cause damage to the surface of the metal. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 20/04/2013 11:35 a.m., Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > A little hint here. The lighter you press the darker the mark! A > little counter-intuitive, but I find it really works to use a very > light touch with markers. If they stop working, scribbling with a very > light touch will restart them. Pressing hard just mashes the tip. > > Gary H. Lucas > > From: wild_explorer > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 12:18 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Marking lines over gray zinc-reach primer > > I found that black permanent marker with fine point (like Sharpie) > works very good when you need some highly visible marking on > pre-primed plate. > > I was using scriber, soapstone, paint marker, etc. So far, permanent > marker works best when you need to make some permanent notes or lines > for joining parts. It works over scribed lines or soapstone lines > (when you are sure everything is correct). If welding smoke goes over > the marking, you simply brush off the smoke with wire brush - marking > is still there. Very useful for deck installation. Allows to draw deck > lines before welding bulwark pipe to the pattern. > > I did not try permanent marker with other colors, but I think it > should work as well. > > Cons: Hard to remove. Be sure you make a mark in right place. When you > press marker tip hard over plate surface when making a line, the tip > can be damaged/sanded-off by rough surface of the plate. > Pros: Cheap, available almost everywhere, high visibility, possible to > make very narrow lines > > Gary H. Lucas > > Have you read my blog? http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 30133|30098|2013-04-21 17:24:52|wild_explorer|Re: Tween Keels|Brent's tween keels (depending on foil used for estimate) have about 0.25-0.35 cu.m. volume EACH. Total volume about 0.5 - 0.7 cu.m Ballast for BS36 is about 4500Lb (~ 2000kg, ~2t). Density of lead is about 11.3 t/cu.m, steel - 7.8 t/cu.m. So, using lead for ballast, it should have some room left for tankage (about 0.3 - 0.5 cu.m) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The thing I really like about the single keel versus twin keel is the > amount of tankage you can place in it. My keel is slightly larger than > shown on the plans. I have approx 125 imperial gallons of water and 90 > of fuel in mine. It places the weight down low and in the center of the > boat where it belongs. The other boats I have seen with twin keels have > ended up putting tanks either under the settees or under the cockpit. I > am not sure if they did a good job of putting in the ballast though. Not > doing a clean lead pour or using concrete and steel ballast can really > add volume. > > Paul | 30134|1284|2013-04-21 20:23:55|ragnarpar|Rudder|Ok, I am about to start building a rudder. it's for a forty footer. I am using Brent's plans and would like to see / learn of any modifications that seem to work well. As of now, I am thinking of a short snub pipe coming off the top, maybe 12-18" that a longer pipe can be joined to. Any successful flip up designs would certainly be appreciated. Also recommended pipe size to use for either type of kick up or separable scheme. If this is a bad idea for this size rudder, please let me know. It would be nice to review any secrete / notable tack up procedures to prohibit or minimalism rudder warping when welding. Me thinks Brent started driving the shaft through after welding the edges for a while , but then went back to the original method??? Any embellishment on that??? Pros / cons etc etc??? Thanks for any thoughts and or pictures. Par ragnarpar@... "WARNING-trolls and spammers need not reply, my friends WILL FIND YOU, chase you to the ends of the earth and the next life, and you WILL wish you were never born"| 30135|30135|2013-04-22 02:18:55|akenai|Junk Rigged|Is anyone using a lug sail on a BS36? Just a thought if would be any easier to single hand. Aaron| 30136|30135|2013-04-23 10:55:26|haidan|Re: Junk Rigged|You know from what you read about junk rigs they sound pretty awesome and initially I thought it'd be kinda cool but I'm really fucking glad I didn't make that mistake. I have to say I've never sailed a junk rig but, I really don't understand what people find so hard about single handing a sloop rig. There are two lines the main sheet and the jib sheet and unless you're tacking or jybing from a broad reach or a run you don't have to touch the main, so you just have to pull in the jib when you tack. Assuming the lines don't get snarled up on something on deck you don't have to leave the cockpit until you go forward to adjust the vang or the halyard or the outhaul. And with handrails going forward is no real problem on either the windward or leeward deck (as long as you don't mind getting your feet wet). Reefing is a little harder I imagine but since I've setup the slab reefing to work well I've not had too much problem doing even that. Performance of a sloop has got to be better to windward, the sails are way cheap and easy to find used. I think I've spent an embarrassedly small 2-3 grand on my rig (TOTAL, mast, rigging, running rigging, sails, everything) Embarrassing only because of the amount that has gone to the engine, I need to upgrade my sails now but the old junkers still work to get me around just fine for now. I think I've seen one used junk sail advertised on craigslist since I started parousing the boating section these last five or so years. Even if you found some cheap way of getting junk sails, (aka. one hell of a lot of sewing, maybe that's your cup of tea, but it's not mine), you'd have to have two halyards for each sail, of which you'd probably have to have at least two to make it manageable, plus masts, plus about 300-400 feet of line for each sail connected to a whole bunch of little fiddly blocks (speaking of getting snarled on deck) and long continuous pieces of line is not cheap and splicing wouldn't run through blocks so if you chafed through any of the lines you'd have to replace it with a whole new line. And all for what? so that when the weather picks up you can drop the sail instead of having to walk over to the mast and pull it down and crank it tight again? pay attention to the weather and reef early, what could possibly be the problem? Brent's roller furler as long as you're somewhat diligent and make sure the furling line doesn't jump off the drum, doesn't really jam up, put a big drum on it and you've got tons of mechanical advantage, and if that fails there's always the winch.| 30137|30135|2013-04-23 11:34:14|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Junk Rigged|Sorta sounds like your not a fan of junk rigs....could it be the name?? (;<)) Sent from my iPhone On 2013-04-23, at 7:55 AM, "haidan" wrote: > You know from what you read about junk rigs they sound pretty awesome and initially I thought it'd be kinda cool but I'm really fucking glad I didn't make that mistake. I have to say I've never sailed a junk rig but, I really don't understand what people find so hard about single handing a sloop rig. There are two lines the main sheet and the jib sheet and unless you're tacking or jybing from a broad reach or a run you don't have to touch the main, so you just have to pull in the jib when you tack. Assuming the lines don't get snarled up on something on deck you don't have to leave the cockpit until you go forward to adjust the vang or the halyard or the outhaul. And with handrails going forward is no real problem on either the windward or leeward deck (as long as you don't mind getting your feet wet). Reefing is a little harder I imagine but since I've setup the slab reefing to work well I've not had too much problem d oing even that. > Performance of a sloop has got to be better to windward, the sails are way cheap and easy to find used. I think I've spent an embarrassedly small 2-3 grand on my rig (TOTAL, mast, rigging, running rigging, sails, everything) Embarrassing only because of the amount that has gone to the engine, I need to upgrade my sails now but the old junkers still work to get me around just fine for now. I think I've seen one used junk sail advertised on craigslist since I started parousing the boating section these last five or so years. Even if you found some cheap way of getting junk sails, (aka. one hell of a lot of sewing, maybe that's your cup of tea, but it's not mine), you'd have to have two halyards for each sail, of which you'd probably have to have at least two to make it manageable, plus masts, plus about 300-400 feet of line for each sail connected to a whole bunch of little fiddly blocks (speaking of getting snarled on deck) and long continuous pieces of line is not cheap and splicing wouldn't run through blocks so if you chafed through any of the lines you'd have to replace it with a whole new line. And all for what? so that when the weather picks up you can drop the sail instead of having to walk over to the mast and pull it down and crank it tight again? pay attention to the weather and reef early, what could possibly be the problem? Brent's roller furler as long as you're somewhat diligent and make sure the furling line doesn't jump off the drum, doesn't really jam up, put a big drum on it and you've got tons of mechanical advantage, and if that fails there's always the winch. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30138|30135|2013-04-23 14:26:33|brentswain38|Re: Junk Rigged|Well said Haidan. I second all of it. The term "Junk" describes the rig well. I left Mexico thew same time as a 40 ft junk, who's owner was constantly bragging about how he was outsailing marconi rigs. I took 38 days to get home, he took 57 days sailing the same route at the same time. Sure they sail well downwind ,but what boat doesn't? In local races the bermuda rigs consistently sailed 20 degrees closer to the wind. On my two trips home from Tonga, the first 4,000 miles hard on the wind, had I had a junk rig ,I would have had no option but to get home via Japan. Chafe is a huge problem with junks. Friends after several years sailing a junk, converted their boat to marconi and were very happy with the improvement in sailing, as well as being far easier to handle. They said the junk rig was a huge and expensive mistake . Allen Farrel who built the China Cloud said that, in a headwind, 90 degrees was as close as he could point in a swell. I sailed her 45 degrees to the wind , in flat calm water, but he said there was no way she would do that in a chop. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > You know from what you read about junk rigs they sound pretty awesome and initially I thought it'd be kinda cool but I'm really fucking glad I didn't make that mistake. I have to say I've never sailed a junk rig but, I really don't understand what people find so hard about single handing a sloop rig. There are two lines the main sheet and the jib sheet and unless you're tacking or jybing from a broad reach or a run you don't have to touch the main, so you just have to pull in the jib when you tack. Assuming the lines don't get snarled up on something on deck you don't have to leave the cockpit until you go forward to adjust the vang or the halyard or the outhaul. And with handrails going forward is no real problem on either the windward or leeward deck (as long as you don't mind getting your feet wet). Reefing is a little harder I imagine but since I've setup the slab reefing to work well I've not had too much problem doing even that. > Performance of a sloop has got to be better to windward, the sails are way cheap and easy to find used. I think I've spent an embarrassedly small 2-3 grand on my rig (TOTAL, mast, rigging, running rigging, sails, everything) Embarrassing only because of the amount that has gone to the engine, I need to upgrade my sails now but the old junkers still work to get me around just fine for now. I think I've seen one used junk sail advertised on craigslist since I started parousing the boating section these last five or so years. Even if you found some cheap way of getting junk sails, (aka. one hell of a lot of sewing, maybe that's your cup of tea, but it's not mine), you'd have to have two halyards for each sail, of which you'd probably have to have at least two to make it manageable, plus masts, plus about 300-400 feet of line for each sail connected to a whole bunch of little fiddly blocks (speaking of getting snarled on deck) and long continuous pieces of line is not cheap and splicing wouldn't run through blocks so if you chafed through any of the lines you'd have to replace it with a whole new line. And all for what? so that when the weather picks up you can drop the sail instead of having to walk over to the mast and pull it down and crank it tight again? pay attention to the weather and reef early, what could possibly be the problem? Brent's roller furler as long as you're somewhat diligent and make sure the furling line doesn't jump off the drum, doesn't really jam up, put a big drum on it and you've got tons of mechanical advantage, and if that fails there's always the winch. > | 30139|30135|2013-04-23 15:46:12|Paul Wilson|Re: Junk Rigged|I third it..... I sailed on a junk rig boat for a week many years ago. It was easy to handle but no easier than a bermudan rig with roller furling and slab reefing. A modern bermudan rigged boat less than 45 feet long is incredibly easy to sail. Reefing is the last thing I worry about. When you can buy used sails for less than the cost of new sail material, it is hard to see why anyone on a budget would go any other way. There are modern versions of junk rigs that sail very well to windward but they are really closer to a modern wing sail than a traditional junk rig. They look incredibly complex to me with a lot of bits and pieces and a huge amount of lines. I haven't seen one up close but I would think chafe would be a constant problem. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 24/04/2013 6:26 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Well said Haidan. I second all of it. The term "Junk" describes the > rig well. I left Mexico thew same time as a 40 ft junk, who's owner > was constantly bragging about how he was outsailing marconi rigs. I > took 38 days to get home, he took 57 days sailing the same route at > the same time. Sure they sail well downwind ,but what boat doesn't? > In local races the bermuda rigs consistently sailed 20 degrees closer > to the wind. On my two trips home from Tonga, the first 4,000 miles > hard on the wind, had I had a junk rig ,I would have had no option but > to get home via Japan. Chafe is a huge problem with junks. > Friends after several years sailing a junk, converted their boat to > marconi and were very happy with the improvement in sailing, as well > as being far easier to handle. They said the junk rig was a huge and > expensive mistake . > Allen Farrel who built the China Cloud said that, in a headwind, 90 > degrees was as close as he could point in a swell. I sailed her 45 > degrees to the wind , in flat calm water, but he said there was no way > she would do that in a chop. > | 30140|30135|2013-04-23 16:13:42|Paul Thompson|Re: Junk Rigged|Aaron, If you want to know more about the junk rig, join us at the JRA http://www.junkrigassociation.org/ You'll learn about whats really happening in the junk rig world from people who are actually sailing and (some) even racing with it. The rig is under active development and the modern rig performs rather well on all points of sail. To get the full benefit of the association you do need to join but the fee is very modest and easily paid via Paypal. If you are really serious in your interest in the junk rig it is worth every penny. The BS 36 would sail very well under a modern junk rig. Look forward to seeing you there! Paul Thompson On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:18 PM, akenai wrote: > Is anyone using a lug sail on a BS36? Just a thought if would be any > easier to single hand. > Aaron > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30141|30135|2013-04-23 17:44:56|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: Junk Rigged|The chafe .... well. Not even junkies deny this. Some people do like junk riggs nonetheless, like some do still use their Ford Model T for everyday use ... Haidan's rant hits the spot in a very essential point: Go anywhere You like, You won't find really skilled help with a junk ever, no matter where You go to, because literally nobody does really know how to repair broken or troubled parts for this sort of rigg, no widespread experience with dimensions and materials exists, it's in need of a vastly different cut of the sailcloth even, compared to more traditional sail solutions You might find used round the next corner and can have changed/resewn in any port with a random sailmaker. Junks are a particular show to look at, but their everyday-use is something for the completely selfsufficient shipwright and rigger, being sailmaker all along, bringing his/her own sailrite (or better) of course, and being tricky in substituting one material with an other, easier to get sort of material where trouble emerges ... This can work, no doubt, even for a long run, with the Hill's "Badger" being one of the first examples regularly emerging when this theme cooks up; but the attention required and the time consumed and the tools mandatorily to bring just to keep it maintained properly would change me towards rather going by motor. Some of the impressions here could show what's about: http://www.tuchwerkstatt.de/about/peregrine.html Peregrine's owner is a sailmaker, his traditional square sails are said to be world-class, he's an absolute enthusiast, he built the boat from scratch, so did he develop and build the rigg, and he is very fond of his third different version of the self-developped cambered sail, with "Peregrine" still having a tacking bow and a running one though, plus they use a hell of an electrical winch to get this curtain up, (80 m2); he uses the third Gaff following his explanations: hollow whitewood-epoxy with some helping glass this time, after loosing the alugaff to the wind of the baltic and dumping the idea of a grown wooden one for its weight, and even the hollow one makes it absolutely impossible to hoist without the electric help, unless You are seven or more people .... singlehanding would be a bit hazardous under such circumstances ... and sailing on the literal shoestring doesn't work at all with this sort of boat. And this Peregrine-chest still being a mere 37'' - 80 sq-meter low aspect boat only. I'd prefer not to. I do like the freestanding masts and the pre-balaced sails, the gybing and tacking, the wing-wing-sailing before the wind if You split the sailarea into two masts (the Badger-configuration, recurring in different shapes not only on Benford boats), the absence of unsopported foresail, aka no need for fussing around with extra booms, no necessity to store a number of different fore-sails, (or otherwise rape-roll Your once wellshaped Genoa to a crumbling fore in a blow) ... all very nice features. I'd still prefer not to. There are different tries to get rid of the chafe with foil-shaped sails sitting on long elliptic lammellated "shroud battens", which make the sail a foil around the mast, very sophisticated, very academic, very vulnerable though and still more difficult to maintain. Even Garry Hoyt's last ingenious strike, a prebalanced square curtain sail, battened and hoisting on vertical strings (gooooogle pictures ...) between two fixed horizontal spares, on top and on the boom-hight of the mast, show that this sort of idea isn't completely dumped yet. (with Gary Hoyt being the bloke who invented the very successful (in terms of sailing) Freedom unstayed cat ketch wishbone-rigg back in the seventies). But, for the "exotic" reason: I'd rather prefer not to. A well thought-out bermuda-rigg with some simple bulletproof reefing device and a double forestay or a roller furling fore with some sort of cutter third stay might be the cheapest and the most reliable propulsion and still an easily adaptable way to sail singlehanded; and definitely the cheapest to erect and maintain on a budget, aka with used gear/sails. Cheers G_B. Am 23.04.2013 um 21:46 schrieb Paul Wilson: > I third it..... I sailed on a junk rig boat for a week many years ago. > It was easy to handle but no easier than a bermudan rig with roller > furling and slab reefing. A modern bermudan rigged boat less than 45 > feet long is incredibly easy to sail. Reefing is the last thing I worry > about. When you can buy used sails for less than the cost of new sail > material, it is hard to see why anyone on a budget would go any other way. > > There are modern versions of junk rigs that sail very well to windward > but they are really closer to a modern wing sail than a traditional junk > rig. They look incredibly complex to me with a lot of bits and pieces > and a huge amount of lines. I haven't seen one up close but I would > think chafe would be a constant problem. > > Paul > >> `�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. > >> `�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. >�. > > On 24/04/2013 6:26 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: >> >> Well said Haidan. I second all of it. The term "Junk" describes the >> rig well. I left Mexico thew same time as a 40 ft junk, who's owner >> was constantly bragging about how he was outsailing marconi rigs. I >> took 38 days to get home, he took 57 days sailing the same route at >> the same time. Sure they sail well downwind ,but what boat doesn't? >> In local races the bermuda rigs consistently sailed 20 degrees closer >> to the wind. On my two trips home from Tonga, the first 4,000 miles >> hard on the wind, had I had a junk rig ,I would have had no option but >> to get home via Japan. Chafe is a huge problem with junks. >> Friends after several years sailing a junk, converted their boat to >> marconi and were very happy with the improvement in sailing, as well >> as being far easier to handle. They said the junk rig was a huge and >> expensive mistake . >> Allen Farrel who built the China Cloud said that, in a headwind, 90 >> degrees was as close as he could point in a swell. I sailed her 45 >> degrees to the wind , in flat calm water, but he said there was no way >> she would do that in a chop. >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30142|30135|2013-04-23 17:52:55|brentswain38|Re: Junk Rigged|I have been hearing stories about close winded junk rigs for decades , but have yet to see on. If they existed, I cruise full time, and I would have seen one by now. With the mast on the lee side of the sail, creating a massive turbulence from that point on, I dont belive it is possible to go well to windward on that tack. Allen Farell was in Scotty Bay on Lasquetti Island hoping to go to a picknic on Jedediah Island 5 miles away, in a 15 knot southeasterly. In his junk rigged China Cloud , he beat all day , and could make zero progress against the 15 knot SE. The next day he again beat all day with zero progress,and again ended up back in Scotty Bay. He said that in his previous boats with marconi rigs, he would have done it in two easy tacks. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I third it..... I sailed on a junk rig boat for a week many years ago. > It was easy to handle but no easier than a bermudan rig with roller > furling and slab reefing. A modern bermudan rigged boat less than 45 > feet long is incredibly easy to sail. Reefing is the last thing I worry > about. When you can buy used sails for less than the cost of new sail > material, it is hard to see why anyone on a budget would go any other way. > > There are modern versions of junk rigs that sail very well to windward > but they are really closer to a modern wing sail than a traditional junk > rig. They look incredibly complex to me with a lot of bits and pieces > and a huge amount of lines. I haven't seen one up close but I would > think chafe would be a constant problem. > > Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 24/04/2013 6:26 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Well said Haidan. I second all of it. The term "Junk" describes the > > rig well. I left Mexico thew same time as a 40 ft junk, who's owner > > was constantly bragging about how he was outsailing marconi rigs. I > > took 38 days to get home, he took 57 days sailing the same route at > > the same time. Sure they sail well downwind ,but what boat doesn't? > > In local races the bermuda rigs consistently sailed 20 degrees closer > > to the wind. On my two trips home from Tonga, the first 4,000 miles > > hard on the wind, had I had a junk rig ,I would have had no option but > > to get home via Japan. Chafe is a huge problem with junks. > > Friends after several years sailing a junk, converted their boat to > > marconi and were very happy with the improvement in sailing, as well > > as being far easier to handle. They said the junk rig was a huge and > > expensive mistake . > > Allen Farrel who built the China Cloud said that, in a headwind, 90 > > degrees was as close as he could point in a swell. I sailed her 45 > > degrees to the wind , in flat calm water, but he said there was no way > > she would do that in a chop. > > > | 30143|30098|2013-04-23 17:54:17|brentswain38|Re: Tween Keels|Yes, the lead roughly half fills the keels. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent's tween keels (depending on foil used for estimate) have about 0.25-0.35 cu.m. volume EACH. Total volume about 0.5 - 0.7 cu.m > > Ballast for BS36 is about 4500Lb (~ 2000kg, ~2t). Density of lead is about 11.3 t/cu.m, steel - 7.8 t/cu.m. So, using lead for ballast, it should have some room left for tankage (about 0.3 - 0.5 cu.m) > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > The thing I really like about the single keel versus twin keel is the > > amount of tankage you can place in it. My keel is slightly larger than > > shown on the plans. I have approx 125 imperial gallons of water and 90 > > of fuel in mine. It places the weight down low and in the center of the > > boat where it belongs. The other boats I have seen with twin keels have > > ended up putting tanks either under the settees or under the cockpit. I > > am not sure if they did a good job of putting in the ballast though. Not > > doing a clean lead pour or using concrete and steel ballast can really > > add volume. > > > > Paul > | 30144|1284|2013-04-23 18:00:59|brentswain38|Re: Rudder|Yes driving the pipe thru left a crease on the side of the rudder. I weld the leading edges together while the plate is on the flat, then grind the trailing edges flush. Then I stuf the pipe in thru the trailign edges and force it to it's final position. Then I use clamps , vise grips etc to pull the trailing edges together. If they match up the rudder should be symetrical , but I always check it with a bent welding rod. Yes you can weld to a short piece of pipe on top, but I prefer to build the entire rudder at once. I'm not sure what you mean by kick up or separatable type. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > Ok, I am about to start building a rudder. > it's for a forty footer. > > I am using Brent's plans and would like to see / learn of any modifications that seem to work well. > > As of now, I am thinking of a short snub pipe coming off the top, maybe 12-18" that a longer pipe can be joined to. > Any successful flip up designs would certainly be appreciated. > Also recommended pipe size to use for either type of kick up or separable scheme. > If this is a bad idea for this size rudder, please let me know. > > It would be nice to review any secrete / notable tack up procedures to prohibit or minimalism rudder warping when welding. > > Me thinks Brent started driving the shaft through after welding the edges for a while , but then went back to the original method??? > Any embellishment on that??? Pros / cons etc etc??? > > Thanks for any thoughts and or pictures. > > Par > > > ragnarpar@... > "WARNING-trolls and spammers need not reply, my friends WILL FIND YOU, chase you to the ends of the earth and the next life, and you WILL wish you were never born" > | 30145|30135|2013-04-23 18:03:39|brentswain38|Re: Junk Rigged|Beware of the bullshit hype on junk rigs. Most go to windward at warp speed , speed only attainable by warping the truth. Believe only what you see actually happening. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I have been hearing stories about close winded junk rigs for decades , but have yet to see on. If they existed, I cruise full time, and I would have seen one by now. > With the mast on the lee side of the sail, creating a massive turbulence from that point on, I dont belive it is possible to go well to windward on that tack. > Allen Farell was in Scotty Bay on Lasquetti Island hoping to go to a picknic on Jedediah Island 5 miles away, in a 15 knot southeasterly. In his junk rigged China Cloud , he beat all day , and could make zero progress against the 15 knot SE. The next day he again beat all day with zero progress,and again ended up back in Scotty Bay. He said that in his previous boats with marconi rigs, he would have done it in two easy tacks. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I third it..... I sailed on a junk rig boat for a week many years ago. > > It was easy to handle but no easier than a bermudan rig with roller > > furling and slab reefing. A modern bermudan rigged boat less than 45 > > feet long is incredibly easy to sail. Reefing is the last thing I worry > > about. When you can buy used sails for less than the cost of new sail > > material, it is hard to see why anyone on a budget would go any other way. > > > > There are modern versions of junk rigs that sail very well to windward > > but they are really closer to a modern wing sail than a traditional junk > > rig. They look incredibly complex to me with a lot of bits and pieces > > and a huge amount of lines. I haven't seen one up close but I would > > think chafe would be a constant problem. > > > > Paul > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > > > On 24/04/2013 6:26 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > Well said Haidan. I second all of it. The term "Junk" describes the > > > rig well. I left Mexico thew same time as a 40 ft junk, who's owner > > > was constantly bragging about how he was outsailing marconi rigs. I > > > took 38 days to get home, he took 57 days sailing the same route at > > > the same time. Sure they sail well downwind ,but what boat doesn't? > > > In local races the bermuda rigs consistently sailed 20 degrees closer > > > to the wind. On my two trips home from Tonga, the first 4,000 miles > > > hard on the wind, had I had a junk rig ,I would have had no option but > > > to get home via Japan. Chafe is a huge problem with junks. > > > Friends after several years sailing a junk, converted their boat to > > > marconi and were very happy with the improvement in sailing, as well > > > as being far easier to handle. They said the junk rig was a huge and > > > expensive mistake . > > > Allen Farrel who built the China Cloud said that, in a headwind, 90 > > > degrees was as close as he could point in a swell. I sailed her 45 > > > degrees to the wind , in flat calm water, but he said there was no way > > > she would do that in a chop. > > > > > > | 30146|30135|2013-04-23 21:12:54|Aaron|Re: Junk Rigged|All  I was asking about junk rigs because I bought a Colvin Gazelle 42 It was very well built and cared for until the last owner did not replace the zinks. (Now Pitted at water line) After doing several spot checks with a UT scope I can fix the problem locations, The inside had been primed and painted along with foamed insulation. Also pilot house and forward cabin have an aluminum roof, an M50 Perkins engine, Full working electronics,  But if I chose not to repair and build another BS36 or 40 I would have two mast and sails to rig as a junk. And a lot of other parts that could be used.   Aaron ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 2:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Junk Rigged   Beware of the bullshit hype on junk rigs. Most go to windward at warp speed , speed only attainable by warping the truth. Believe only what you see actually happening. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I have been hearing stories about close winded junk rigs for decades , but have yet to see on. If they existed, I cruise full time, and I would have seen one by now. > With the mast on the lee side of the sail, creating a massive turbulence from that point on, I dont belive it is possible to go well to windward on that tack. > Allen Farell was in Scotty Bay on Lasquetti Island hoping to go to a picknic on Jedediah Island 5 miles away, in a 15 knot southeasterly. In his junk rigged China Cloud , he beat all day , and could make zero progress against the 15 knot SE. The next day he again beat all day with zero progress,and again ended up back in Scotty Bay. He said that in his previous boats with marconi rigs, he would have done it in two easy tacks. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I third it..... I sailed on a junk rig boat for a week many years ago. > > It was easy to handle but no easier than a bermudan rig with roller > > furling and slab reefing. A modern bermudan rigged boat less than 45 > > feet long is incredibly easy to sail. Reefing is the last thing I worry > > about. When you can buy used sails for less than the cost of new sail > > material, it is hard to see why anyone on a budget would go any other way. > > > > There are modern versions of junk rigs that sail very well to windward > > but they are really closer to a modern wing sail than a traditional junk > > rig. They look incredibly complex to me with a lot of bits and pieces > > and a huge amount of lines. I haven't seen one up close but I would > > think chafe would be a constant problem. > > > > Paul > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > > > On 24/04/2013 6:26 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > Well said Haidan. I second all of it. The term "Junk" describes the > > > rig well. I left Mexico thew same time as a 40 ft junk, who's owner > > > was constantly bragging about how he was outsailing marconi rigs. I > > > took 38 days to get home, he took 57 days sailing the same route at > > > the same time. Sure they sail well downwind ,but what boat doesn't? > > > In local races the bermuda rigs consistently sailed 20 degrees closer > > > to the wind. On my two trips home from Tonga, the first 4,000 miles > > > hard on the wind, had I had a junk rig ,I would have had no option but > > > to get home via Japan. Chafe is a huge problem with junks. > > > Friends after several years sailing a junk, converted their boat to > > > marconi and were very happy with the improvement in sailing, as well > > > as being far easier to handle. They said the junk rig was a huge and > > > expensive mistake . > > > Allen Farrel who built the China Cloud said that, in a headwind, 90 > > > degrees was as close as he could point in a swell. I sailed her 45 > > > degrees to the wind , in flat calm water, but he said there was no way > > > she would do that in a chop. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30147|30008|2013-04-24 20:57:40|john|Re: Hard dodger|In my eyes you are right. Verticle with enough overlap to keep the rain out. I live in the tropics. We need air flow without rain or bugs. So I would lean the front of the pilot house forward (again with overlaping roof) and use removeable windows. With middle and forward hatches no need for opening windows and all their problems. My boat (an old Nic 32) constantly lets water enter and run down onto the electrical panel. The back of the house slopes forward and garvity and wind push water inside even with the hatch closed. Since it is your boat just change it. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > What is the reason to have main hatch tilted forward instead of being vertical? I can understand if someone wants to reduce the height of pilothouse, but it will require sliding top in addition to main hatch. > > Main hatch design with cupola gives "standing headroom" for main hatch anyway... > > What is disadvantage having vertical main hatch? It does not raise pilothouse much - just cupola. It should not have big effect on windage. > | 30148|1284|2013-04-24 21:14:16|ragnarpar|Re: Rudder|Ok, what I mean by kick up or separable is a tiller that can either fold/ tilt/kick up out of The way of the main cockpit, same thing for a socket type arrangement, that permits pulling out/ removing the long part of a tiller, leaving maybe a foot or so of stock at the head of the rudder shaft to socket into, maybe a 1.5 or1.75 socket with the remainder of the tiller 1.25 or1.5 inch, again easily removed to clear space in cockpit. Thanks for heads up one the better way to put the rudder together. Are half stick welds skipping a foot or so sufficient to keep the warpage out when welding the leading edge or are other methods preferred?? Ok, thanks for thots and inputs, any directions to any photos. Par --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes driving the pipe thru left a crease on the side of the rudder. I weld the leading edges together while the plate is on the flat, then grind the trailing edges flush. Then I stuf the pipe in thru the trailign edges and force it to it's final position. Then I use clamps , vise grips etc to pull the trailing edges together. If they match up the rudder should be symetrical , but I always check it with a bent welding rod. > Yes you can weld to a short piece of pipe on top, but I prefer to build the entire rudder at once. > I'm not sure what you mean by kick up or separatable type. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > Ok, I am about to start building a rudder. > > it's for a forty footer. > > > > I am using Brent's plans and would like to see / learn of any modifications that seem to work well. > > > > As of now, I am thinking of a short snub pipe coming off the top, maybe 12-18" that a longer pipe can be joined to. > > Any successful flip up designs would certainly be appreciated. > > Also recommended pipe size to use for either type of kick up or separable scheme. > > If this is a bad idea for this size rudder, please let me know. > > > > It would be nice to review any secrete / notable tack up procedures to prohibit or minimalism rudder warping when welding. > > > > Me thinks Brent started driving the shaft through after welding the edges for a while , but then went back to the original method??? > > Any embellishment on that??? Pros / cons etc etc??? > > > > Thanks for any thoughts and or pictures. > > > > Par > > > > > > ragnarpar@ > > "WARNING-trolls and spammers need not reply, my friends WILL FIND YOU, chase you to the ends of the earth and the next life, and you WILL wish you were never born" > > > | 30149|30135|2013-04-24 21:24:11|wild_explorer|Re: Junk Rigged|What I got after reading about different rigs... that boat/hull should be designed for chosen rig. Changing the rig on a boat designed for different rig is not a good idea. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > All >  I was asking about junk rigs because I bought a Colvin Gazelle 42 It was very well built and cared for until the last owner did not replace the zinks. | 30150|30150|2013-04-26 05:33:25|shaneduncan206@yahoo.com|Re:tillerpilot|Looking at a Sinead TP32 tillerpilot to run the trim tab directly from the back of the rudder, its a single unit with an inbuilt fluxgate compass, has any one had experiance with tiller pilots / fluxgate compass and gain settings on their steel boats, had a chat with the Sinead technical guys , but it got too much for them when I explained I was going to run the trim tab and not the tiller sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset ----- Reply message ----- From: "ragnarpar" To: Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rudder Date: Thu, Apr 25, 2013 9:14 AM Ok, what I mean by kick up or separable is a tiller that can either fold/ tilt/kick up out of The way of the main cockpit, same thing for a socket type arrangement, that permits pulling out/ removing the long part of a tiller, leaving maybe a foot or so of stock at the head of the rudder shaft to socket into, maybe a 1.5 or1.75 socket with the remainder of the tiller 1.25 or1.5 inch, again easily removed to clear space in cockpit. Thanks for heads up one the better way to put the rudder together. Are half stick welds skipping a foot or so sufficient to keep the warpage out when welding the leading edge or are other methods preferred?? Ok, thanks for thots and inputs, any directions to any photos. Par --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes driving the pipe thru left a crease on the side of the rudder. I weld the leading edges together while the plate is on the flat, then grind the trailing edges flush. Then I stuf the pipe in thru the trailign edges and force it to it's final position. Then I use clamps , vise grips etc to pull the trailing edges together. If they match up the rudder should be symetrical , but I always check it with a bent welding rod. > Yes you can weld to a short piece of pipe on top, but I prefer to build the entire rudder at once. > I'm not sure what you mean by kick up or separatable type. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > Ok, I am about to start building a rudder. > > it's for a forty footer. > > > > I am using Brent's plans and would like to see / learn of any modifications that seem to work well. > > > > As of now, I am thinking of a short snub pipe coming off the top, maybe 12-18" that a longer pipe can be joined to. > > Any successful flip up designs would certainly be appreciated. > > Also recommended pipe size to use for either type of kick up or separable scheme. > > If this is a bad idea for this size rudder, please let me know. > > > > It would be nice to review any secrete / notable tack up procedures to prohibit or minimalism rudder warping when welding. > > > > Me thinks Brent started driving the shaft through after welding the edges for a while , but then went back to the original method??? > > Any embellishment on that??? Pros / cons etc etc??? > > > > Thanks for any thoughts and or pictures. > > > > Par > > > > > > ragnarpar@ > > "WARNING-trolls and spammers need not reply, my friends WILL FIND YOU, chase you to the ends of the earth and the next life, and you WILL wish you were never born" > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30151|30151|2013-04-26 05:36:05|shaneduncan206@yahoo.com|Re: [origamiboats] Re:tillerpilot|That should read Sinrad 32 sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset ----- Reply message ----- From: "shaneduncan206@..." To: Subject: [origamiboats] Re:tillerpilot Date: Fri, Apr 26, 2013 5:33 PM Looking at a Sinead TP32 tillerpilot to run the trim tab directly from the back of the rudder, its a single unit with an inbuilt fluxgate compass, has any one had experiance with tiller pilots / fluxgate compass and gain settings on their steel boats, had a chat with the Sinead technical guys , but it got too much for them when I explained I was going to run the trim tab and not the tiller sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset ----- Reply message ----- From: "ragnarpar" To: Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rudder Date: Thu, Apr 25, 2013 9:14 AM Ok, what I mean by kick up or separable is a tiller that can either fold/ tilt/kick up out of The way of the main cockpit, same thing for a socket type arrangement, that permits pulling out/ removing the long part of a tiller, leaving maybe a foot or so of stock at the head of the rudder shaft to socket into, maybe a 1.5 or1.75 socket with the remainder o [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30152|30150|2013-04-26 10:53:07|Darren Bos|Re: tillerpilot|I don't have experience on a steel boat, but I think the mechanics of this unit are one of the better designs. It uses a recirculating ball drive vs the screw drive found on some other units. The result is faster, more powerful and still lower current draw than some of the less powerful units with a screw drive. I bought one a few years back and it has worked flawlessly, but I'm not using it on a steel boat yet. Darren At 02:33 AM 26/04/2013, you wrote: > > >Looking at a Sinead TP32 tillerpilot to run the >trim tab directly from the back of the rudder, >its a single unit with an inbuilt fluxgate >compass, has any one had experiance with tiller >pilots / fluxgate compass and gain settings on >their steel boats, had a chat with the Sinead >technical guys , but it got too much for them >when I explained I was going to run the trim tab and not the tiller > >sent from my Telstra NEXTG™ handset | 30153|30150|2013-04-26 14:51:59|brentswain38|tillerpilot|Tiller pilots lock in on steel boats, Autohelms don't. An autohelm would be a far better choice. I have be running my Autohelm 800 off my trim tab,from in front of the inside steering station, for over 20 years , no problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaneduncan206@..." wrote: > > Looking at a Sinead TP32 tillerpilot to run the trim tab directly from the back of the rudder, its a single unit with an inbuilt fluxgate compass, has any one had experiance with tiller pilots / fluxgate compass and gain settings on their steel boats, had a chat with the Sinead technical guys , but it got too much for them when I explained I was going to run the trim tab and not the tiller > > sent from my Telstra NEXTG™ handset > > ----- Reply message ----- > From: "ragnarpar" > To: > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rudder > Date: Thu, Apr 25, 2013 9:14 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, what I mean by kick up or separable is a tiller that can either fold/ tilt/kick up out of The way of the main cockpit, same thing for a socket type arrangement, that permits pulling out/ removing the long part of a tiller, leaving maybe a foot or so of stock at the head of the rudder shaft to socket into, maybe a 1.5 or1.75 socket with the remainder of the tiller 1.25 or1.5 inch, again easily removed to clear space in cockpit. > > Thanks for heads up one the better way to put the rudder together. Are half stick welds skipping a foot or so sufficient to keep the warpage out when welding the leading edge or are other methods preferred?? > > Ok, thanks for thots and inputs, any directions to any photos. > > Par > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Yes driving the pipe thru left a crease on the side of the rudder. I weld the leading edges together while the plate is on the flat, then grind the trailing edges flush. Then I stuf the pipe in thru the trailign edges and force it to it's final position. Then I use clamps , vise grips etc to pull the trailing edges together. If they match up the rudder should be symetrical , but I always check it with a bent welding rod. > > Yes you can weld to a short piece of pipe on top, but I prefer to build the entire rudder at once. > > I'm not sure what you mean by kick up or separatable type. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > Ok, I am about to start building a rudder. > > > it's for a forty footer. > > > > > > I am using Brent's plans and would like to see / learn of any modifications that seem to work well. > > > > > > As of now, I am thinking of a short snub pipe coming off the top, maybe 12-18" that a longer pipe can be joined to. > > > Any successful flip up designs would certainly be appreciated. > > > Also recommended pipe size to use for either type of kick up or separable scheme. > > > If this is a bad idea for this size rudder, please let me know. > > > > > > It would be nice to review any secrete / notable tack up procedures to prohibit or minimalism rudder warping when welding. > > > > > > Me thinks Brent started driving the shaft through after welding the edges for a while , but then went back to the original method??? > > > Any embellishment on that??? Pros / cons etc etc??? > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts and or pictures. > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > ragnarpar@ > > > "WARNING-trolls and spammers need not reply, my friends WILL FIND YOU, chase you to the ends of the earth and the next life, and you WILL wish you were never born" > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30154|30008|2013-04-26 15:05:42|brentswain38|Re: Hard dodger|Vertical would be a HUGE mistake. It changes going thru it, from walking in upright, to crawling into a rat hole. With a 25 degree slope, the top front of the opening can be as far ahead of the bottom as with a sliding hatch, to give you the equivalent of a sliding hatch, without the leaks and complexity.Your feet descend before your head reaches the top of the opening .With a vertical hatch, you have to duck and literally crawl thru. This is a much higher priority than a few raindrops on the top step, altho the small canopy on my boom gallows, much higher up, takes care of that. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "john" wrote: > > In my eyes you are right. Verticle with enough overlap to keep the rain out. I live in the tropics. We need air flow without rain or bugs. So I would lean the front of the pilot house forward (again with overlaping roof) and use removeable windows. With middle and forward hatches no need for opening windows and all their problems. > > My boat (an old Nic 32) constantly lets water enter and run down onto the electrical panel. The back of the house slopes forward and garvity and wind push water inside even with the hatch closed. > > Since it is your boat just change it. > > John > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > What is the reason to have main hatch tilted forward instead of being vertical? I can understand if someone wants to reduce the height of pilothouse, but it will require sliding top in addition to main hatch. > > > > Main hatch design with cupola gives "standing headroom" for main hatch anyway... > > > > What is disadvantage having vertical main hatch? It does not raise pilothouse much - just cupola. It should not have big effect on windage. > > > | 30155|1284|2013-04-26 15:17:17|brentswain38|Re: Rudder|I tried flip ups , on several boats. No matter how strongly I made them they eventually got irritatingly floppy. So I have switched to sockets , a sized down piece of 2 inch pipe welded to the rudder head with a 1 1/2 inch tiller shoved in. Much better. My tiler is simply welde to the rudder head. If I want it out of the way, I throw a loop of line around it, to hold it to one side. Much simpler --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, what I mean by kick up or separable is a tiller that can either fold/ tilt/kick up out of The way of the main cockpit, same thing for a socket type arrangement, that permits pulling out/ removing the long part of a tiller, leaving maybe a foot or so of stock at the head of the rudder shaft to socket into, maybe a 1.5 or1.75 socket with the remainder of the tiller 1.25 or1.5 inch, again easily removed to clear space in cockpit. > > Thanks for heads up one the better way to put the rudder together. Are half stick welds skipping a foot or so sufficient to keep the warpage out when welding the leading edge or are other methods preferred?? > > Ok, thanks for thots and inputs, any directions to any photos. > > Par > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Yes driving the pipe thru left a crease on the side of the rudder. I weld the leading edges together while the plate is on the flat, then grind the trailing edges flush. Then I stuf the pipe in thru the trailign edges and force it to it's final position. Then I use clamps , vise grips etc to pull the trailing edges together. If they match up the rudder should be symetrical , but I always check it with a bent welding rod. > > Yes you can weld to a short piece of pipe on top, but I prefer to build the entire rudder at once. > > I'm not sure what you mean by kick up or separatable type. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > Ok, I am about to start building a rudder. > > > it's for a forty footer. > > > > > > I am using Brent's plans and would like to see / learn of any modifications that seem to work well. > > > > > > As of now, I am thinking of a short snub pipe coming off the top, maybe 12-18" that a longer pipe can be joined to. > > > Any successful flip up designs would certainly be appreciated. > > > Also recommended pipe size to use for either type of kick up or separable scheme. > > > If this is a bad idea for this size rudder, please let me know. > > > > > > It would be nice to review any secrete / notable tack up procedures to prohibit or minimalism rudder warping when welding. > > > > > > Me thinks Brent started driving the shaft through after welding the edges for a while , but then went back to the original method??? > > > Any embellishment on that??? Pros / cons etc etc??? > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts and or pictures. > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > ragnarpar@ > > > "WARNING-trolls and spammers need not reply, my friends WILL FIND YOU, chase you to the ends of the earth and the next life, and you WILL wish you were never born" > > > > > > | 30156|30135|2013-04-26 15:19:28|brentswain38|Re: Junk Rigged|Allen's junk rigged China cloud was built on the lines of a Hangchow Bay trader, a hull designed for the junk rig. Still didnt sail to windward worth a shit. Having a mast on the lee side of any sail kills it's flow from that point aft, no matter what kind of hull you have under it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > What I got after reading about different rigs... that boat/hull should be designed for chosen rig. Changing the rig on a boat designed for different rig is not a good idea. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > > > All > >  I was asking about junk rigs because I bought a Colvin Gazelle 42 It was very well built and cared for until the last owner did not replace the zinks. > | 30157|1284|2013-04-26 17:29:59|ragnarpar|Re: Rudder|OK, socket it shall be. Looking at drawings, Q1- For the flat bar used on the leading edge of the upper half of the rudder as well as the top / head of the rudder, is 1/8" or 3/16" sufficient or 1/4" preferred??? One of the views shows the tiller at about an 8 degree down angle from the top of the rudder head, to counter transom angle. Q2- Is that 8 degrees sufficient or should I wait until rudder is hung and set the angle then for sweep?? Q3- Should I come off the leading edge flat stock or weld the socket pipe along the top flat bar?? would that interfere with self steering wind vane mechanics??? Par --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I tried flip ups , on several boats. No matter how strongly I made them they eventually got irritatingly floppy. So I have switched to sockets , a sized down piece of 2 inch pipe welded to the rudder head with a 1 1/2 inch tiller shoved in. Much better. My tiler is simply welde to the rudder head. If I want it out of the way, I throw a loop of line around it, to hold it to one side. Much simpler > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > | 30158|30150|2013-04-26 17:36:22|Paul Wilson|Re: tillerpilot|Ramble alert.... You can use the smallest unit if you are running it on the trim tab since the forces are tiny. No need to spend the extra for the 32. I have never found the need for any gps coupling so you might be happy with the smallest and cheapest unit available. I have used an old Navico 1800 for many years. Navico became Simrad. The seals were very poor and leaked water in to the unit within months. I took it apart and sealed the board with special circuit board sealant and put goop all over the case joints. If I hadn't done so it would never have lasted. The buttons eventually leaked so I cleaned it up again and gooped them. The newer models are much better with the seals. The board is sealed inside the main case now so reliability is much better. All tillerpilots have a tiny breath hole in the bottom for the air to get in and out as the ram extends or retracts so they are vulnerable to spray. If you really want a tiller pilot to last offshore for many years, I would run them inside a long plastic bag or mount them down below using a push pull cable. This goes for Autohelm too. Anyway, on my steel boat, I found the Navico tillerpilot was overactive in waves. The tillerpilot was mounted inches from the transom. I carefully removed the flux-valve compass gimbal assembly and remote mounted it using a water proof case and shielded multi-conductor cable up on the rear rail. The autopilot steered much better after that. You need good soldering skills to do this since the flux-valve is extremely fragile. Some people say the Navico's were no good but the early ones used Hall effect transistors to sense magnetic fields instead of flux-valves. They were junk. The flux-valves in later units are the same ones as used in an Autohelm. I think the real problem is that any tillerpilot with the fluxvalve mounted within inches of steel is going to be a problem whether it is an Autohelm or a Navico. The newer Simrads have the fluxvalve mounted on the tillerpilot away from the mount under the little round dome. This is the opposite end from my old Navico. I am not sure if this helps but I tried a new Simrad on my boat and it seemed to work fine although I admit I was not in large waves. There is probably a way to mount the tillerpilot up on the rail direct to the windvane rather than down on the transom. Or you could mount it down below away from the steel on a push pull cable. It is up to you but I prefer to push the buttons from a position in the cockpit. If I mounted it down below, I would want to be able to easily reach the buttons from the hatch. I mounted the pin on the trim tab tiller arm and lift the autopilot on and off whether it is needed or not. It is easy and quick to flip it on or off to engage the windvane. If I mounted it down below it would need some other arrangement. Work out your linkages so a combination of going hard over with the tiller or hard over with the tillerpilot won't break or bend anything. You can't back drive the worm gear tillerpilots. Ball drives can be back driven but the forces are still quite large to a windvane linkage so be careful. The Schematics for the Simrad are available online....I have never been able to find them for an Autohelm. This is enough to sway me to buy the Simrad but I can do repairs myself. I have found old units for a few dollars and repaired them. Usually it is a matter of just cleaning up the corrosion or the tiny wires on the fluxvalve have broken. This can be tricky to repair. Autopilots are important so I now have some repaired spares which cost me less than $100. My wife started tearing up when ours quit in the first 20 miles on the way from Fiji to NZ and yet we still had a windvane. I eventually convinced her to keep going anyway but we ended up hand steering under power the last few days. http://www.chicagomarineelectronics.com/Simrad_Documents.htm#AP16 If I could save a lot of money by buying the Simrad, I would do so but if the prices are almost the same and I never planned to repair them, I would go for the Autohelm. Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 26/04/2013 9:33 p.m., shaneduncan206@... wrote: > > Looking at a Sinead TP32 tillerpilot to run the trim tab directly from > the back of the rudder, its a single unit with an inbuilt fluxgate > compass, has any one had experiance with tiller pilots / fluxgate > compass and gain settings on their steel boats, had a chat with the > Sinead technical guys , but it got too much for them when I explained > I was going to run the trim tab and not the tiller > > sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset > > ----- Reply message ----- > From: "ragnarpar" > > To: > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rudder > Date: Thu, Apr 25, 2013 9:14 AM > > Ok, what I mean by kick up or separable is a tiller that can either > fold/ tilt/kick up out of The way of the main cockpit, same thing for > a socket type arrangement, that permits pulling out/ removing the long > part of a tiller, leaving maybe a foot or so of stock at the head of > the rudder shaft to socket into, maybe a 1.5 or1.75 socket with the > remainder of the tiller 1.25 or1.5 inch, again easily removed to clear > space in cockpit. > > Thanks for heads up one the better way to put the rudder together. Are > half stick welds skipping a foot or so sufficient to keep the warpage > out when welding the leading edge or are other methods preferred?? > > Ok, thanks for thots and inputs, any directions to any photos. > > Par > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Yes driving the pipe thru left a crease on the side of the rudder. I > weld the leading edges together while the plate is on the flat, then > grind the trailing edges flush. Then I stuf the pipe in thru the > trailign edges and force it to it's final position. Then I use clamps > , vise grips etc to pull the trailing edges together. If they match up > the rudder should be symetrical , but I always check it with a bent > welding rod. > > Yes you can weld to a short piece of pipe on top, but I prefer to > build the entire rudder at once. > > I'm not sure what you mean by kick up or separatable type. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > Ok, I am about to start building a rudder. > > > it's for a forty footer. > > > > > > I am using Brent's plans and would like to see / learn of any > modifications that seem to work well. > > > > > > As of now, I am thinking of a short snub pipe coming off the top, > maybe 12-18" that a longer pipe can be joined to. > > > Any successful flip up designs would certainly be appreciated. > > > Also recommended pipe size to use for either type of kick up or > separable scheme. > > > If this is a bad idea for this size rudder, please let me know. > > > > > > It would be nice to review any secrete / notable tack up > procedures to prohibit or minimalism rudder warping when welding. > > > > > > Me thinks Brent started driving the shaft through after welding > the edges for a while , but then went back to the original method??? > > > Any embellishment on that??? Pros / cons etc etc??? > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts and or pictures. > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > ragnarpar@ > > > "WARNING-trolls and spammers need not reply, my friends WILL FIND > YOU, chase you to the ends of the earth and the next life, and you > WILL wish you were never born" > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 30159|1284|2013-04-26 18:35:07|ragnarpar|Re: Rudder|Brent, Sorry, found the detail showing the 2" pipe on top with vane mechanics attached. That last drawing just got put with the others. Also, is it best to pinch the foot or put a flat bar cut to shape there?? Thanks for the info, layout looks fine, hope to cut Monday. Gotta work this weekend. Par --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > OK, socket it shall be. > > Looking at drawings, > > Q1- > For the flat bar used on the leading edge of the upper half of the rudder as well as the top / head of the rudder, is 1/8" or 3/16" sufficient or 1/4" preferred??? > > One of the views shows the tiller at about an 8 degree down angle from the top of the rudder head, to counter transom angle. > Q2- > Is that 8 degrees sufficient or should I wait until rudder is hung and set the angle then for sweep?? > > Q3- > Should I come off the leading edge flat stock or weld the socket pipe along the top flat bar?? would that interfere with self steering wind vane mechanics??? > > Par > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I tried flip ups , on several boats. No matter how strongly I made them they eventually got irritatingly floppy. So I have switched to sockets , a sized down piece of 2 inch pipe welded to the rudder head with a 1 1/2 inch tiller shoved in. Much better. My tiler is simply welde to the rudder head. If I want it out of the way, I throw a loop of line around it, to hold it to one side. Much simpler > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > > > > | 30160|30150|2013-04-27 09:53:55|scott|tillerpilot|I have the TP32 on my First 235 23.5 ft beneteau. It's great and worked well. However If we passed to close to a steel boat.. say 15 or 20 feet it would go nuts and go off course. Not sure how it would work when fixed to a steel boat. if you hook it to an external flux gate compass it will override the internal one. This unit will sail to wind as well as follow a gps course.. I have been designing a trim tab system in my head for my current boat and if I implement it I will move my tp23 over to run it for an autopilot. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > I don't have experience on a steel boat, but I > think the mechanics of this unit are one of the > better designs. It uses a recirculating ball > drive vs the screw drive found on some other > units. The result is faster, more powerful and > still lower current draw than some of the less > powerful units with a screw drive. I bought one > a few years back and it has worked flawlessly, > but I'm not using it on a steel boat yet. > > Darren > > At 02:33 AM 26/04/2013, you wrote: > > > > > >Looking at a Sinead TP32 tillerpilot to run the > >trim tab directly from the back of the rudder, > >its a single unit with an inbuilt fluxgate > >compass, has any one had experiance with tiller > >pilots / fluxgate compass and gain settings on > >their steel boats, had a chat with the Sinead > >technical guys , but it got too much for them > >when I explained I was going to run the trim tab and not the tiller > > > >sent from my Telstra NEXTG™ handset > | 30161|30150|2013-04-27 16:06:17|Paul Wilson|Re: tillerpilot|I can't say that I have done that but it wouldn't surprise me. Radio waves can also cause an autopilot to go crazy. Particularly low frequencies like the ones found on HF transmitters. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 28/04/2013 1:53 a.m., scott wrote: > I have the TP32 on my First 235 23.5 ft beneteau. It's great and > worked well. However If we passed to close to a steel boat.. say 15 or > 20 feet it would go nuts and go off course. Not sure how it would work > when fixed to a steel boat. if you hook it to an external flux gate > compass it will override the internal one. This unit will sail to wind > as well as follow a gps course.. I have been designing a trim tab > system in my head for my current boat and if I implement it I will > move my tp23 over to run it for an autopilot. > > Scott | 30162|1284|2013-04-27 18:53:46|brentswain38|Re: Rudder|No harm in going a bit heavier for that flat bar to allow for corosion as it is a had spot po get into sometimes. 3/16th or 1/4 inch Wait til the rudder is hung, then put the tiller at a comfortable angle when you are standing in the cockput with one hand on the tiller. You dont want to stoop, I prefer to set the pipe into the top of the rudder for maximum strength.It takes a lot of torque when you are hove to with the tiller lashed to leeward, and the boat backs down on it a bit. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > OK, socket it shall be. > > Looking at drawings, > > Q1- > For the flat bar used on the leading edge of the upper half of the rudder as well as the top / head of the rudder, is 1/8" or 3/16" sufficient or 1/4" preferred??? > > One of the views shows the tiller at about an 8 degree down angle from the top of the rudder head, to counter transom angle. > Q2- > Is that 8 degrees sufficient or should I wait until rudder is hung and set the angle then for sweep?? > > Q3- > Should I come off the leading edge flat stock or weld the socket pipe along the top flat bar?? would that interfere with self steering wind vane mechanics??? > > Par > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I tried flip ups , on several boats. No matter how strongly I made them they eventually got irritatingly floppy. So I have switched to sockets , a sized down piece of 2 inch pipe welded to the rudder head with a 1 1/2 inch tiller shoved in. Much better. My tiler is simply welde to the rudder head. If I want it out of the way, I throw a loop of line around it, to hold it to one side. Much simpler > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > > > > | 30163|30150|2013-04-27 19:02:36|brentswain38|tillerpilot|Friends have had the autohelm work well alongside the steel cabinside, three inches away from it. Mine works well below decks. I run a shaft from alongside the steering seat, thru the transom, thru a packing gland. Outside an arm pokes up, which is hooked to the trimtab tiller by a weighted fibreglass linkage. Below decks the arm points down hooked to a jogstick, which the autohelm is hooked on to. I have seen all kinds of autopilots fill with water or get accidentaly stomped on. Below decks is the only safe place for one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Ramble alert.... > > You can use the smallest unit if you are running it on the trim tab > since the forces are tiny. No need to spend the extra for the 32. I > have never found the need for any gps coupling so you might be happy > with the smallest and cheapest unit available. > > I have used an old Navico 1800 for many years. Navico became Simrad. > The seals were very poor and leaked water in to the unit within months. > I took it apart and sealed the board with special circuit board sealant > and put goop all over the case joints. If I hadn't done so it would > never have lasted. The buttons eventually leaked so I cleaned it up > again and gooped them. The newer models are much better with the > seals. The board is sealed inside the main case now so reliability is > much better. All tillerpilots have a tiny breath hole in the bottom > for the air to get in and out as the ram extends or retracts so they are > vulnerable to spray. If you really want a tiller pilot to last offshore > for many years, I would run them inside a long plastic bag or mount them > down below using a push pull cable. This goes for Autohelm too. > > Anyway, on my steel boat, I found the Navico tillerpilot was overactive > in waves. The tillerpilot was mounted inches from the transom. I > carefully removed the flux-valve compass gimbal assembly and remote > mounted it using a water proof case and shielded multi-conductor cable > up on the rear rail. The autopilot steered much better after that. > You need good soldering skills to do this since the flux-valve is > extremely fragile. > > Some people say the Navico's were no good but the early ones used Hall > effect transistors to sense magnetic fields instead of flux-valves. > They were junk. The flux-valves in later units are the same ones as > used in an Autohelm. I think the real problem is that any tillerpilot > with the fluxvalve mounted within inches of steel is going to be a > problem whether it is an Autohelm or a Navico. The newer Simrads have > the fluxvalve mounted on the tillerpilot away from the mount under the > little round dome. This is the opposite end from my old Navico. I am > not sure if this helps but I tried a new Simrad on my boat and it seemed > to work fine although I admit I was not in large waves. There is > probably a way to mount the tillerpilot up on the rail direct to the > windvane rather than down on the transom. Or you could mount it down > below away from the steel on a push pull cable. It is up to you but I > prefer to push the buttons from a position in the cockpit. If I mounted > it down below, I would want to be able to easily reach the buttons from > the hatch. > > I mounted the pin on the trim tab tiller arm and lift the autopilot on > and off whether it is needed or not. It is easy and quick to flip it on > or off to engage the windvane. If I mounted it down below it would need > some other arrangement. Work out your linkages so a combination of > going hard over with the tiller or hard over with the tillerpilot won't > break or bend anything. You can't back drive the worm gear > tillerpilots. Ball drives can be back driven but the forces are still > quite large to a windvane linkage so be careful. > > The Schematics for the Simrad are available online....I have never been > able to find them for an Autohelm. This is enough to sway me to buy > the Simrad but I can do repairs myself. I have found old units for a > few dollars and repaired them. Usually it is a matter of just cleaning > up the corrosion or the tiny wires on the fluxvalve have broken. This > can be tricky to repair. Autopilots are important so I now have some > repaired spares which cost me less than $100. My wife started tearing > up when ours quit in the first 20 miles on the way from Fiji to NZ and > yet we still had a windvane. I eventually convinced her to keep going > anyway but we ended up hand steering under power the last few days. > > http://www.chicagomarineelectronics.com/Simrad_Documents.htm#AP16 > > If I could save a lot of money by buying the Simrad, I would do so but > if the prices are almost the same and I never planned to repair them, I > would go for the Autohelm. > > Cheers, Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 26/04/2013 9:33 p.m., shaneduncan206@... wrote: > > > > Looking at a Sinead TP32 tillerpilot to run the trim tab directly from > > the back of the rudder, its a single unit with an inbuilt fluxgate > > compass, has any one had experiance with tiller pilots / fluxgate > > compass and gain settings on their steel boats, had a chat with the > > Sinead technical guys , but it got too much for them when I explained > > I was going to run the trim tab and not the tiller > > > > sent from my Telstra NEXTG™ handset > > > > ----- Reply message ----- > > From: "ragnarpar" > > > To: > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rudder > > Date: Thu, Apr 25, 2013 9:14 AM > > > > Ok, what I mean by kick up or separable is a tiller that can either > > fold/ tilt/kick up out of The way of the main cockpit, same thing for > > a socket type arrangement, that permits pulling out/ removing the long > > part of a tiller, leaving maybe a foot or so of stock at the head of > > the rudder shaft to socket into, maybe a 1.5 or1.75 socket with the > > remainder of the tiller 1.25 or1.5 inch, again easily removed to clear > > space in cockpit. > > > > Thanks for heads up one the better way to put the rudder together. Are > > half stick welds skipping a foot or so sufficient to keep the warpage > > out when welding the leading edge or are other methods preferred?? > > > > Ok, thanks for thots and inputs, any directions to any photos. > > > > Par > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes driving the pipe thru left a crease on the side of the rudder. I > > weld the leading edges together while the plate is on the flat, then > > grind the trailing edges flush. Then I stuf the pipe in thru the > > trailign edges and force it to it's final position. Then I use clamps > > , vise grips etc to pull the trailing edges together. If they match up > > the rudder should be symetrical , but I always check it with a bent > > welding rod. > > > Yes you can weld to a short piece of pipe on top, but I prefer to > > build the entire rudder at once. > > > I'm not sure what you mean by kick up or separatable type. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > > > Ok, I am about to start building a rudder. > > > > it's for a forty footer. > > > > > > > > I am using Brent's plans and would like to see / learn of any > > modifications that seem to work well. > > > > > > > > As of now, I am thinking of a short snub pipe coming off the top, > > maybe 12-18" that a longer pipe can be joined to. > > > > Any successful flip up designs would certainly be appreciated. > > > > Also recommended pipe size to use for either type of kick up or > > separable scheme. > > > > If this is a bad idea for this size rudder, please let me know. > > > > > > > > It would be nice to review any secrete / notable tack up > > procedures to prohibit or minimalism rudder warping when welding. > > > > > > > > Me thinks Brent started driving the shaft through after welding > > the edges for a while , but then went back to the original method??? > > > > Any embellishment on that??? Pros / cons etc etc??? > > > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts and or pictures. > > > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > > > > ragnarpar@ > > > > "WARNING-trolls and spammers need not reply, my friends WILL FIND > > YOU, chase you to the ends of the earth and the next life, and you > > WILL wish you were never born" > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 30164|1284|2013-04-27 19:04:46|brentswain38|Re: Rudder|I e t a=flat bar on th ebottom of the rudder, then trim it flush. Is that what you meant by "Pinch the foot? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > Brent, > > Sorry, found the detail showing the 2" pipe on top with vane mechanics attached. That last drawing just got put with the others. > > > Also, is it best to pinch the foot or put a flat bar cut to shape there?? > > Thanks for the info, layout looks fine, hope to cut Monday. Gotta work this weekend. > Par > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, socket it shall be. > > > > Looking at drawings, > > > > Q1- > > For the flat bar used on the leading edge of the upper half of the rudder as well as the top / head of the rudder, is 1/8" or 3/16" sufficient or 1/4" preferred??? > > > > One of the views shows the tiller at about an 8 degree down angle from the top of the rudder head, to counter transom angle. > > Q2- > > Is that 8 degrees sufficient or should I wait until rudder is hung and set the angle then for sweep?? > > > > Q3- > > Should I come off the leading edge flat stock or weld the socket pipe along the top flat bar?? would that interfere with self steering wind vane mechanics??? > > > > Par > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I tried flip ups , on several boats. No matter how strongly I made them they eventually got irritatingly floppy. So I have switched to sockets , a sized down piece of 2 inch pipe welded to the rudder head with a 1 1/2 inch tiller shoved in. Much better. My tiler is simply welde to the rudder head. If I want it out of the way, I throw a loop of line around it, to hold it to one side. Much simpler > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 30165|1284|2013-04-27 19:05:49|brentswain38|Re: Rudder|I put a flat bar on the bottom of the rudder then trim it flush. Sorry for the typo. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I e t a=flat bar on th ebottom of the rudder, then trim it flush. Is that what you meant by "Pinch the foot? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > Sorry, found the detail showing the 2" pipe on top with vane mechanics attached. That last drawing just got put with the others. > > > > > > Also, is it best to pinch the foot or put a flat bar cut to shape there?? > > > > Thanks for the info, layout looks fine, hope to cut Monday. Gotta work this weekend. > > Par > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, socket it shall be. > > > > > > Looking at drawings, > > > > > > Q1- > > > For the flat bar used on the leading edge of the upper half of the rudder as well as the top / head of the rudder, is 1/8" or 3/16" sufficient or 1/4" preferred??? > > > > > > One of the views shows the tiller at about an 8 degree down angle from the top of the rudder head, to counter transom angle. > > > Q2- > > > Is that 8 degrees sufficient or should I wait until rudder is hung and set the angle then for sweep?? > > > > > > Q3- > > > Should I come off the leading edge flat stock or weld the socket pipe along the top flat bar?? would that interfere with self steering wind vane mechanics??? > > > > > > Par > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > I tried flip ups , on several boats. No matter how strongly I made them they eventually got irritatingly floppy. So I have switched to sockets , a sized down piece of 2 inch pipe welded to the rudder head with a 1 1/2 inch tiller shoved in. Much better. My tiler is simply welde to the rudder head. If I want it out of the way, I throw a loop of line around it, to hold it to one side. Much simpler > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 30166|1284|2013-04-27 20:31:06|ragnarpar|Re: Rudder|Got it, Thanks, Now if I can weld it without any warp/twist/cuss n fuss. Par --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I put a flat bar on the bottom of the rudder then trim it flush. Sorry for the typo. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I e t a=flat bar on th ebottom of the rudder, then trim it flush. Is that what you meant by "Pinch the foot? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > Sorry, found the detail showing the 2" pipe on top with vane mechanics attached. That last drawing just got put with the others. > > > > > > > > > Also, is it best to pinch the foot or put a flat bar cut to shape there?? > > > > > > Thanks for the info, layout looks fine, hope to cut Monday. Gotta work this weekend. > > > Par > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, socket it shall be. > > > > > > > > Looking at drawings, > > > > > > > > Q1- > > > > For the flat bar used on the leading edge of the upper half of the rudder as well as the top / head of the rudder, is 1/8" or 3/16" sufficient or 1/4" preferred??? > > > > > > > > One of the views shows the tiller at about an 8 degree down angle from the top of the rudder head, to counter transom angle. > > > > Q2- > > > > Is that 8 degrees sufficient or should I wait until rudder is hung and set the angle then for sweep?? > > > > > > > > Q3- > > > > Should I come off the leading edge flat stock or weld the socket pipe along the top flat bar?? would that interfere with self steering wind vane mechanics??? > > > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I tried flip ups , on several boats. No matter how strongly I made them they eventually got irritatingly floppy. So I have switched to sockets , a sized down piece of 2 inch pipe welded to the rudder head with a 1 1/2 inch tiller shoved in. Much better. My tiler is simply welde to the rudder head. If I want it out of the way, I throw a loop of line around it, to hold it to one side. Much simpler > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 30167|30167|2013-04-27 20:44:40|ragnarpar|priming steel laying about|Ok, so, I remember hearing about a weld over priming paint that was used for steel that is left out in the open / field uncovered. Sounded great. anyways, I couldn't find any local. I did some research and found some common alternatives available at auto stores. Is anyone using such?? Any pros or cons on different types or brands, interfering with any other base primers like for a coal tar or such?? Seams like there are aluminum based, copper based, zinc, etc etc. what can i use that wont interfere with a real primer later that I don't have to blast off, or am I just going to have to blast everything no matter what??? Par| 30168|30151|2013-04-27 23:58:42|shaneduncan206@yahoo.com|Re: [origamiboats] Re:tillerpilot|My cabin top is aluminum so will be interested to see if it works inside it, looking at running a mercury throttle cable from the inside the cabin to the trim tab, the simrad guys, although not the official line, have said that the tp32 has worked on steel yachts, cheers for the advice, will keep you posted, will post some pics up of the set up sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset ----- Reply message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Subject: [origamiboats] Re:tillerpilot Date: Sun, Apr 28, 2013 7:02 AM Friends have had the autohelm work well alongside the steel cabinside, three inches away from it. Mine works well below decks. I run a shaft from alongside the steering seat, thru the transom, thru a packing gland. Outside an arm pokes up, which is hooked to the trimtab tiller by a weighted fibreglass linkage. Below decks the arm points down hooked to a jogstick, which the autohelm is hooked on to. I have seen all kinds of autopilots fill with water or get accidentaly stomped on. Below decks is the only safe place for one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Ramble alert.... > > You can use the smallest unit if you are running it on the trim tab > since the forces are tiny. No need to spend the extra for the 32. I > have never found the need for any gps coupling so you might be happy > with the smallest and cheapest unit available. > > I have used an old Navico 1800 for many years. Navico became Simrad. > The seals were very poor and leaked water in to the unit within months. > I took it apart and sealed the board with special circuit board sealant > and put goop all over the case joints. If I hadn't done so it would > never have lasted. The buttons eventually leaked so I cleaned it up > again and gooped them. The newer models are much better with the > seals. The board is sealed inside the main case now so reliability is > much better. All tillerpilots have a tiny breath hole in the bottom > for the air to get in and out as the ram extends or retracts so they are > vulnerable to spray. If you really want a tiller pilot to last offshore > for many years, I would run them inside a long plastic bag or mount them > down below using a push pull cable. This goes for Autohelm too. > > Anyway, on my steel boat, I found the Navico tillerpilot was overactive > in waves. The tillerpilot was mounted inches from the transom. I > carefully removed the flux-valve compass gimbal assembly and remote > mounted it using a water proof case and shielded multi-conductor cable > up on the rear rail. The autopilot steered much better after that. > You need good soldering skills to do this since the flux-valve is > extremely fragile. > > Some people say the Navico's were no good but the early ones used Hall > effect transistors to sense magnetic fields instead of flux-valves. > They were junk. The flux-valves in later units are the same ones as > used in an Autohelm. I think the real problem is that any tillerpilot > with the fluxvalve mounted within inches of steel is going to be a > problem whether it is an Autohelm or a Navico. The newer Simrads have > the fluxvalve mounted on the tillerpilot away from the mount under the > little round dome. This is the opposite end from my old Navico. I am > not sure if this helps but I tried a new Simrad on my boat and it seemed > to work fine although I admit I was not in large waves. There is > probably a way to mount the tillerpilot up on the rail direct to the > windvane rather than down on the transom. Or you could mount it down > below away from the steel on a push pull cable. It is up to you but I > prefer to push the buttons from a position in the cockpit. If I mounted > it down below, I would want to be able to easily reach the buttons from > the hatch. > > I mounted the pin on the trim tab tiller arm and lift the autopilot on > and off whether it is needed or not. It is easy and quick to flip it on > or off to engage the windvane. If I mounted it down below it would need > some other arrangement. Work out your linkages so a combination of > going hard over with the tiller or hard over with the tillerpilot won't > break or bend anything. You can't back drive the worm gear > tillerpilots. Ball drives can be back driven but the forces are still > quite large to a windvane linkage so be careful. > > The Schematics for the Simrad are available online....I have never been > able to find them for an Autohelm. This is enough to sway me to buy > the Simrad but I can do repairs myself. I have found old units for a > few dollars and repaired them. Usually it is a matter of just cleaning > up the corrosion or the tiny wires on the fluxvalve have broken. This > can be tricky to repair. Autopilots are important so I now have some > repaired spares which cost me less than $100. My wife started tearing > up when ours quit in the first 20 miles on the way from Fiji to NZ and > yet we still had a windvane. I eventually convinced her to keep going > anyway but we ended up hand steering under power the last few days. > > http://www.chicagomarineelectronics.com/Simrad_Documents.htm#AP16 > > If I could save a lot of money by buying the Simrad, I would do so but > if the prices are almost the same and I never planned to repair them, I > would go for the Autohelm. > > Cheers, Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 26/04/2013 9:33 p.m., shaneduncan206@... wrote: > > > > Looking at a Sinead TP32 tillerpilot to run the trim tab directly from > > the back of the rudder, its a single unit with an inbuilt fluxgate > > compass, has any one had experiance with tiller pilots / fluxgate > > compass and gain settings on their steel boats, had a chat with the > > Sinead technical guys , but it got too much for them when I explained > > I was going to run the trim tab and not the tiller > > > > sent from my Telstra NEXTG™ handset > > > > ----- Reply message ----- > > From: "ragnarpar" > > > To: > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rudder > > Date: Thu, Apr 25, 2013 9:14 AM > > > > Ok, what I mean by kick up or separable is a tiller that can either > > fold/ tilt/kick up out of The way of the main cockpit, same thing for > > a socket type arrangement, that permits pulling out/ removing the long > > part of a tiller, leaving maybe a foot or so of stock at the head of > > the rudder shaft to socket into, maybe a 1.5 or1.75 socket with the > > remainder of the tiller 1.25 or1.5 inch, again easily removed to clear > > space in cockpit. > > > > Thanks for heads up one the better way to put the rudder together. Are > > half stick welds skipping a foot or so sufficient to keep the warpage > > out when welding the leading edge or are other methods preferred?? > > > > Ok, thanks for thots and inputs, any directions to any photos. > > > > Par > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes driving the pipe thru left a crease on the side of the rudder. I > > weld the leading edges together while the plate is on the flat, then > > grind the trailing edges flush. Then I stuf the pipe in thru the > > trailign edges and force it to it's final position. Then I use clamps > > , vise grips etc to pull the trailing edges together. If they match up > > the rudder should be symetrical , but I always check it with a bent > > welding rod. > > > Yes you can weld to a short piece of pipe on top, but I prefer to > > build the entire rudder at once. > > > I'm not sure what you mean by kick up or separatable type. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > > > Ok, I am about to start building a rudder. > > > > it's for a forty footer. > > > > > > > > I am using Brent's plans and would like to see / learn of any > > modifications that seem to work well. > > > > > > > > As of now, I am thinking of a short snub pipe coming off the top, > > maybe 12-18" that a longer pipe can be joined to. > > > > Any successful flip up designs would certainly be appreciated. > > > > Also recommended pipe size to use for either type of kick up or > > separable scheme. > > > > If this is a bad idea for this size rudder, please let me know. > > > > > > > > It would be nice to review any secrete / notable tack up > > procedures to prohibit or minimalism rudder warping when welding. > > > > > > > > Me thinks Brent started driving the shaft through after welding > > the edges for a while , but then went back to the original method??? > > > > Any embellishment on that??? Pros / cons etc etc??? > > > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts and or pictures. > > > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > > > > ragnarpar@ > > > > "WARNING-trolls and spammers need not reply, my friends WILL FIND > > YOU, chase you to the ends of the earth and the next life, and you > > WILL wish you were never born" > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30169|30167|2013-04-28 12:47:14|wild_explorer|Re: priming steel laying about|It really depends where you are and what equipment you have access to. Check welding suppliers for "shop weld-thru primer" (not touch-up primer). If you go with blasted and primed steel... Usually, places which wheelabrate/blast steel have ability to paint it is as well. You may ask what shop weld-thru primers they use. Look for companies which can do SSPC-SP10 surface preparation (near white metal). It will take off protective scale from hot rolled steel, so steel need to be primed. If you ask to use primer which company unfamiliar with, they could easily screw up and it is more expensive (because they buy primer for you only and more than you need). More likely, they may screw up anyway... Especially if they use inorganic zinc silicate primer ;) The benefit of zinc shop primer that you can launch a boat without painting (it will protect steel up to 2 years) - just put extra zincs on. It will give you time to finish your boat on water, find where and with what you want to paint it. And it is much more pleasant to work with primed steel that with rusted one ;)) At least you can prime plate's side which will be "inside" your boat (before or after folding). This way, interior of the boat can be water (or soda) blasted if needed. Outside can be left as is, and sand-blasted after the hull is finished. There are some differences in welding bare metal vs. over shop zinc primer. It is better to use wire brush on grinder to clean welding area before welding. 6011 and 7018, 7024 electrodes work OK over zinc shop primer, 6013 not so good. If you able to do DIY sand blasting - it will be different story. I have Interplate 937 primer on my steel. Welding and plasma cutting does not damage surrounding primer in heat affected zone. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > Ok, > so, I remember hearing about a weld over priming paint that was used for steel that is left out in the open / field uncovered. Sounded great. > anyways, I couldn't find any local. I did some research and found some common alternatives available at auto stores. > > Is anyone using such?? > Any pros or cons on different types or brands, interfering with any other base primers like for a coal tar or such?? > > Seams like there are aluminum based, copper based, zinc, etc etc. > what can i use that wont interfere with a real primer later that I don't have to blast off, or am I just going to have to blast everything no matter what??? > > Par > | 30170|30167|2013-04-30 14:56:30|brentswain38|Re: priming steel laying about|Cold galvanizing zinc based primer,which is over 85% zinc , dry film works well. Some of it is organic based, which can be lifted by epoxy thiners, but if it is left on long enough, it gets hard enough to resist such thiners. I used it on my boat with no problem. One client washed it with laquer thinner which softened it again and the epoxy over it came off in sheets. Had he left it alone. he would have had no problem Once you have the shell together, another coat of such primer is a good idea. Welding smoke should all be washed off primer before painting. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > Ok, > so, I remember hearing about a weld over priming paint that was used for steel that is left out in the open / field uncovered. Sounded great. > anyways, I couldn't find any local. I did some research and found some common alternatives available at auto stores. > > Is anyone using such?? > Any pros or cons on different types or brands, interfering with any other base primers like for a coal tar or such?? > > Seams like there are aluminum based, copper based, zinc, etc etc. > what can i use that wont interfere with a real primer later that I don't have to blast off, or am I just going to have to blast everything no matter what??? > > Par > | 30171|30167|2013-04-30 21:44:25|brentswain38|Re: priming steel laying about|Avoid the standard red primer. The grey stuff is much better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > It really depends where you are and what equipment you have access to. Check welding suppliers for "shop weld-thru primer" (not touch-up primer). > > If you go with blasted and primed steel... Usually, places which wheelabrate/blast steel have ability to paint it is as well. You may ask what shop weld-thru primers they use. Look for companies which can do SSPC-SP10 surface preparation (near white metal). It will take off protective scale from hot rolled steel, so steel need to be primed. If you ask to use primer which company unfamiliar with, they could easily screw up and it is more expensive (because they buy primer for you only and more than you need). More likely, they may screw up anyway... Especially if they use inorganic zinc silicate primer ;) > > The benefit of zinc shop primer that you can launch a boat without painting (it will protect steel up to 2 years) - just put extra zincs on. It will give you time to finish your boat on water, find where and with what you want to paint it. And it is much more pleasant to work with primed steel that with rusted one ;)) > > At least you can prime plate's side which will be "inside" your boat (before or after folding). This way, interior of the boat can be water (or soda) blasted if needed. Outside can be left as is, and sand-blasted after the hull is finished. > > There are some differences in welding bare metal vs. over shop zinc primer. It is better to use wire brush on grinder to clean welding area before welding. 6011 and 7018, 7024 electrodes work OK over zinc shop primer, 6013 not so good. > > If you able to do DIY sand blasting - it will be different story. > > I have Interplate 937 primer on my steel. Welding and plasma cutting does not damage surrounding primer in heat affected zone. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > Ok, > > so, I remember hearing about a weld over priming paint that was used for steel that is left out in the open / field uncovered. Sounded great. > > anyways, I couldn't find any local. I did some research and found some common alternatives available at auto stores. > > > > Is anyone using such?? > > Any pros or cons on different types or brands, interfering with any other base primers like for a coal tar or such?? > > > > Seams like there are aluminum based, copper based, zinc, etc etc. > > what can i use that wont interfere with a real primer later that I don't have to blast off, or am I just going to have to blast everything no matter what??? > > > > Par > > > | 30172|30167|2013-05-01 10:04:54|Mark Hamill|Re: priming steel laying about|For what it's worth, I noticed that the zinc rich primer I bought has a best before date on it. And the Dulux Paint store is selling Wasser Tar at about $250 per 5 gallon pail. "Hi Mark, Further to our telephone conversation this morning, I have a note to contact you when we will be placing our next order with the factory. Thanks, Ron Ganton Devoe High Performance Coatings T 604-299-1399 F 604-299-1445 E ron.ganton@... AkzoNobel Canada Inc. Dulux Paint Store 319 1609 Boundary Road Vancouver, BC V5K 4X7 www.akzonobel.com " [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30173|30173|2013-05-05 00:04:52|wild_explorer|Side deck installation|Brent, I have some questions about welding of side-deck to the hull... I spot-tacked 11ga side-deck assembly to the hull with 1/8" 6011 and fully welding it with 3/32 7018. Is it possible to beef-up this seam (over final weld) with 1/8" 7024 (to get more leg size)? 1/8" 6011 and 3/32" 7018 use the same current (about 95-100A). 1/8" 7024 will require about 160A. Will it make side deck ridge more visible on the hull? Some notes: - with 2" bulwark side (to the lower end of the pipe) it is hard to fit 4 1/2" grinder to clean the weld (or grind it). Grinder does not fit well there. - my deck assembly was moderately warped after welding, wheelabrating and lifting, but it was pretty easy to straighten it up following deck's line on the hull - if to clamp flat bar to inside edge of the side-deck (extending it to fore-deck later after tacking fore seam of side-deck to foredeck), it is easier to instal side deck and use pipe clamps to pull it to the hull and does not bend inside edge of side-deck. This way, it self-alignes heights of inside edge of side-deck in relation to bulwark as well. Easier to get correct measurement between side-deck and bulwark too. - with DIY "aligment screw-jack" it is simple to align outside edge of side-deck to deck's line with accuracy 1/24-1/32" (< 1mm). - I left some space between longitudinal and transverse beams of side-deck assembly (as Kim did). It allows more flexibility for final alignment of side deck, but requires to keep flat bar clamped until cabin side is tacked and need to connect/overlap deck beams later to keep final shape of the deck.| 30174|30173|2013-05-06 14:21:31|brentswain38|Re: Side deck installation|I have always used one pass of 1/8th inch 7024 to weld side decks to hull and cabinside. That results in thicker metal in the weld, making overhead welding the inside uneccessary, as the strenght of the 7024 weld is stronger than the deck plate. If you weld 11 guiage to a piece of scrap with a pass of 1/8th inch 7024 on one side, then break it, it always breaks the 11 guage , well away from the weld. Overhead welding the inside leads to oil canning.Evan welds both sides, to maximize his income on any job , and I can see the severeoilcanning which results on one of his 36 footers every morning here, as the sun rises. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, I have some questions about welding of side-deck to the hull... I spot-tacked 11ga side-deck assembly to the hull with 1/8" 6011 and fully welding it with 3/32 7018. > > Is it possible to beef-up this seam (over final weld) with 1/8" 7024 (to get more leg size)? 1/8" 6011 and 3/32" 7018 use the same current (about 95-100A). 1/8" 7024 will require about 160A. Will it make side deck ridge more visible on the hull? > > Some notes: > > - with 2" bulwark side (to the lower end of the pipe) it is hard to fit 4 1/2" grinder to clean the weld (or grind it). Grinder does not fit well there. > - my deck assembly was moderately warped after welding, wheelabrating and lifting, but it was pretty easy to straighten it up following deck's line on the hull > - if to clamp flat bar to inside edge of the side-deck (extending it to fore-deck later after tacking fore seam of side-deck to foredeck), it is easier to instal side deck and use pipe clamps to pull it to the hull and does not bend inside edge of side-deck. This way, it self-alignes heights of inside edge of side-deck in relation to bulwark as well. Easier to get correct measurement between side-deck and bulwark too. > - with DIY "aligment screw-jack" it is simple to align outside edge of side-deck to deck's line with accuracy 1/24-1/32" (< 1mm). > - I left some space between longitudinal and transverse beams of side-deck assembly (as Kim did). It allows more flexibility for final alignment of side deck, but requires to keep flat bar clamped until cabin side is tacked and need to connect/overlap deck beams later to keep final shape of the deck. > | 30175|30175|2013-05-06 17:35:28|brentswain38|53 ft aluminium twin keeler|There is a 53 ft aluminium twin keeler for sale here in Comox. It's not an origami boat, but is extremely well built in Prince Rupert, to a Ted Brewer design.| 30176|30173|2013-05-06 23:58:34|wild_explorer|Re: Side deck installation|Thanks Brent! I was afraid to experiment with 11Ga deck. 1/8" 7024 was really easy to weld with on 3/16" steel. I planed to weld the deck to the hull on outside only, that why I want more weld leg. With concave fillet weld it would be easier to paint and maintain deck seam. Almost any welding is visible on primed steel anyway (some distortion marks) - less with low current, more with higher current(depends on low-medium-high penetration electrodes as well). Looks like welding with 80-90A makes less distortion on the plate, but sometimes (with low penetration electrodes) is not enough to burn through the primer - need to grind the spot to bare metal before welding. What would you recommend for welding bulkhead tabs or bulkhead? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I have always used one pass of 1/8th inch 7024 to weld side decks to hull and cabinside. That results in thicker metal in the weld, making overhead welding the inside uneccessary, as the strenght of the 7024 weld is stronger than the deck plate. If you weld 11 guiage to a piece of scrap with a pass of 1/8th inch 7024 on one side, then break it, it always breaks the 11 guage , well away from the weld. Overhead welding the inside leads to oil canning.Evan welds both sides, to maximize his income on any job , and I can see the severeoilcanning which results on one of his 36 footers every morning here, as the sun rises. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Brent, I have some questions about welding of side-deck to the hull... I spot-tacked 11ga side-deck assembly to the hull with 1/8" 6011 and fully welding it with 3/32 7018. > > > > Is it possible to beef-up this seam (over final weld) with 1/8" 7024 (to get more leg size)? 1/8" 6011 and 3/32" 7018 use the same current (about 95-100A). 1/8" 7024 will require about 160A. Will it make side deck ridge more visible on the hull? > > | 30177|30173|2013-05-07 16:28:25|brentswain38|Re: Side deck installation|I use 1/8th inch 6011 for bulkhead tabs. All internal welds on topside plates should have the ridge they leave on the outside ground off, especialy longitudinal stringer welds. Stringer welds will disapppear in the priming stage, then stand out like a sore thumb when you put the finish coat on. The little time it takes to grind them flush is time well spent.I dont bother with the deck line as I use that for the colour change outlining the bulwark . At the stern where the deck angles downward, you can grind it flush, as you dont want to follow it with your sheer stripe. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Thanks Brent! I was afraid to experiment with 11Ga deck. 1/8" 7024 was really easy to weld with on 3/16" steel. I planed to weld the deck to the hull on outside only, that why I want more weld leg. With concave fillet weld it would be easier to paint and maintain deck seam. > > Almost any welding is visible on primed steel anyway (some distortion marks) - less with low current, more with higher current(depends on low-medium-high penetration electrodes as well). Looks like welding with 80-90A makes less distortion on the plate, but sometimes (with low penetration electrodes) is not enough to burn through the primer - need to grind the spot to bare metal before welding. > > What would you recommend for welding bulkhead tabs or bulkhead? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I have always used one pass of 1/8th inch 7024 to weld side decks to hull and cabinside. That results in thicker metal in the weld, making overhead welding the inside uneccessary, as the strenght of the 7024 weld is stronger than the deck plate. If you weld 11 guiage to a piece of scrap with a pass of 1/8th inch 7024 on one side, then break it, it always breaks the 11 guage , well away from the weld. Overhead welding the inside leads to oil canning.Evan welds both sides, to maximize his income on any job , and I can see the severeoilcanning which results on one of his 36 footers every morning here, as the sun rises. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, I have some questions about welding of side-deck to the hull... I spot-tacked 11ga side-deck assembly to the hull with 1/8" 6011 and fully welding it with 3/32 7018. > > > > > > Is it possible to beef-up this seam (over final weld) with 1/8" 7024 (to get more leg size)? 1/8" 6011 and 3/32" 7018 use the same current (about 95-100A). 1/8" 7024 will require about 160A. Will it make side deck ridge more visible on the hull? > > > > | 30178|30173|2013-05-07 16:30:16|brentswain38|Re: Side deck installation|Keep most of the heat of a 7024 on the bulwark and let the weld sorta flow down onto the 11 guage. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Thanks Brent! I was afraid to experiment with 11Ga deck. 1/8" 7024 was really easy to weld with on 3/16" steel. I planed to weld the deck to the hull on outside only, that why I want more weld leg. With concave fillet weld it would be easier to paint and maintain deck seam. > > Almost any welding is visible on primed steel anyway (some distortion marks) - less with low current, more with higher current(depends on low-medium-high penetration electrodes as well). Looks like welding with 80-90A makes less distortion on the plate, but sometimes (with low penetration electrodes) is not enough to burn through the primer - need to grind the spot to bare metal before welding. > > What would you recommend for welding bulkhead tabs or bulkhead? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I have always used one pass of 1/8th inch 7024 to weld side decks to hull and cabinside. That results in thicker metal in the weld, making overhead welding the inside uneccessary, as the strenght of the 7024 weld is stronger than the deck plate. If you weld 11 guiage to a piece of scrap with a pass of 1/8th inch 7024 on one side, then break it, it always breaks the 11 guage , well away from the weld. Overhead welding the inside leads to oil canning.Evan welds both sides, to maximize his income on any job , and I can see the severeoilcanning which results on one of his 36 footers every morning here, as the sun rises. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, I have some questions about welding of side-deck to the hull... I spot-tacked 11ga side-deck assembly to the hull with 1/8" 6011 and fully welding it with 3/32 7018. > > > > > > Is it possible to beef-up this seam (over final weld) with 1/8" 7024 (to get more leg size)? 1/8" 6011 and 3/32" 7018 use the same current (about 95-100A). 1/8" 7024 will require about 160A. Will it make side deck ridge more visible on the hull? > > > > | 30179|30173|2013-05-08 00:22:52|wild_explorer|Re: Side deck installation|Pre-primed plate has its benefits. Weld distortion is VISIBLE (has different color and it forms zinc salt after a while at that spot), so it is easier to see where grinding is needed. I was thinking about same thing - to paint bulwark from bulwark pipe to weld's line in different color. It will hide transition/ridge - no grinding flush necessary (at least where the weld line follows sheer line). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I use 1/8th inch 6011 for bulkhead tabs. All internal welds on topside plates should have the ridge they leave on the outside ground off, especialy longitudinal stringer welds. Stringer welds will disapppear in the priming stage, then stand out like a sore thumb when you put the finish coat on. The little time it takes to grind them flush is time well spent.I dont bother with the deck line as I use that for the colour change outlining the bulwark . At the stern where the deck angles downward, you can grind it flush, as you dont want to follow it with your sheer stripe. > | 30180|869|2013-05-08 13:55:49|deepakkrishnankutty|welding|Is there any technology to weld aluminium plate which is 1mm thk?| 30181|869|2013-05-08 13:57:25|brentswain38|Re: welding|Tig welding will do that, for a welder with a light touch. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "deepakkrishnankutty" wrote: > > Is there any technology to weld aluminium plate which is 1mm thk? > | 30182|30173|2013-05-09 21:25:23|wild_explorer|Re: Side deck installation|I had to move beam setting tabs about 2-3" below deck line (where deck line follows sheer line). It makes deck installation much easier without removing comealongs. Before I had tabs about 1" below lower edge of bulwark pipe. Tabs were on the way of deck installation (hard to position deck assembly - need to move deck under the tab) and pretty hard to remove. My deck was CNC laser cut, so I know that hull should follow deck's edge exactly. Hull's beam was need to be adjusted in some places to make perfect fit between deck and hull (without any gaps). Pipe clamps did not have enough force to fit deck and hull where the gaps were big (about 1/2"). Adjusting the beam at related locations solved this problem. It is easier to mark/scribe deck line on flat hull's pattern (before folding). It is possible to weld beam pulling tabs as well at that stage.| 30183|869|2013-05-10 08:05:33|bargemaster24|Re longtail hull|Hi ,As any one come across a orgami type hull similar to the long tail hulls used in Thailand. Have tried searching but without any results. Thanks for any ideas Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30184|869|2013-05-10 10:19:52|wild_explorer|Re: Re longtail hull|From metal (aluminum?), you cam make flat bottom canoe body hull the same way as keel is done - using 20-35% thick foils. Or you can make "dory type" hull from plywood/alum.| 30185|30185|2013-05-10 12:59:26|bty568635|surveyors, UK South Coast|Anyone had any experiences with surveyors for steel yachts on UK south coast? Good, bad, or indifferent? Ta, Rich B| 30186|30186|2013-05-10 18:59:43|ragnarpar|bulwarks|Ok, so, me thinks that there be a few options from 1" through 2" for the pipe selection when making the bulwarks. for the forty footer, what seems optimum?? Is the 2 inch too hard to bend / manipulate??. is the 1 inch too small? what are the pros and cons of the different sizes??? I be thinking 1.5 inch bulwark, with 3/4 stands to 1 inch rails. any thoughts, or ideas about options, pros and cons would be appreciated. thanks, Par| 30187|30186|2013-05-10 19:39:28|Paul Wilson|Re: bulwarks|1 inch is too small. I would use 1 1/2 inch for the bulwark with 1 inch tubing (or 3/4 pipe) for the stanchions and the rails. It is big enough to weld the stanchions, chainplates and cleats on to. Weld them right on top where it is easy to weld and grind and then there is also nothing stopping water draining down along the decks and no place to stub a toe. Standing water traps along the rail are a common problem with steel boats and to be avoided. There are far too many steel boats with rusty bulwarks caused by bad design. This is one the great low maintenance features with Brent's boats. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 11/05/2013 10:59 a.m., ragnarpar wrote: > > Ok, > > so, me thinks that there be a few options from 1" through 2" for the > pipe selection when making the bulwarks. > > for the forty footer, what seems optimum?? > Is the 2 inch too hard to bend / manipulate??. > is the 1 inch too small? > what are the pros and cons of the different sizes??? > > I be thinking 1.5 inch bulwark, with 3/4 stands to 1 inch rails. > > any thoughts, or ideas about options, pros and cons would be appreciated. > > thanks, > > Par > > | 30188|30186|2013-05-11 00:40:53|wild_explorer|Re: bulwarks|I use what Brent recommends - 1 1/2" (1.5") schedule 40 SS 316L pipe. Which has 1.9" OD with 0.145" wall. When you lift up 20ft pipe, it flexes. Personally, I would not experiment... Try to find pipe for bulwark as close as possible what Brent specifies. Or.. You may figure out what stiffness this pipe has and compare what is available locally close to the specs. http://easycalculation.com/mechanical/deflection-round-tube-beams.php http://www.meracalculator.com/engineering/deflection-round-tube-beams.php http://www.calculatoredge.com/civil%20engg%20calculator/beam.htm It was already mentioned about possibility to weld something to bulwark pipe. I think it is important what total height of bulwark (plate+pipe) you want to have as well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > so, me thinks that there be a few options from 1" through 2" for the pipe selection when making the bulwarks. > > for the forty footer, what seems optimum?? > Is the 2 inch too hard to bend / manipulate??. > is the 1 inch too small? > what are the pros and cons of the different sizes??? | 30189|30186|2013-05-11 09:43:51|James Pronk|Re: bulwarks|While we are on bulwarks, no problems with the rigging attached to the bulwarks? The pipe that I have is seemless, 304 stainless, 2" OD with a .125 or greater wall thickness. I have 3/8" & 1/2" stainless steel plate for chain plates, not sure which one I would use. Thank you, James --- On Sat, 5/11/13, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bulwarks To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, May 11, 2013, 12:40 AM   I use what Brent recommends - 1 1/2" (1.5") schedule 40 SS 316L pipe. Which has 1.9" OD with 0.145" wall. When you lift up 20ft pipe, it flexes. Personally, I would not experiment... Try to find pipe for bulwark as close as possible what Brent specifies. Or.. You may figure out what stiffness this pipe has and compare what is available locally close to the specs. http://easycalculation.com/mechanical/deflection-round-tube-beams.php http://www.meracalculator.com/engineering/deflection-round-tube-beams.php http://www.calculatoredge.com/civil%20engg%20calculator/beam.htm It was already mentioned about possibility to weld something to bulwark pipe. I think it is important what total height of bulwark (plate+pipe) you want to have as well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > so, me thinks that there be a few options from 1" through 2" for the pipe selection when making the bulwarks. > > for the forty footer, what seems optimum?? > Is the 2 inch too hard to bend / manipulate??. > is the 1 inch too small? > what are the pros and cons of the different sizes??? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30190|30190|2013-05-11 11:50:38|jpronk1|Sandblasting|So after a lot of running around and time spent on the phone, I gave up on wheel abraded plate. No supplier could (or would even try) get it for me in this area. This has been a big problem because I am not building everything at once and I want to assemble parts that I will not be able to sandblast later (insides of keels rudder and skeg) The commercial sand blasters I talked to we something else. The prices were unbelievable. The price of the steel was cheaper then the one guys quot. I watched one guy do a job, I saw the work order, "blast to white finish paint with two part zinc rich epoxy". The guy went over the steel so fast, no mill scale was removed. He then took the two part paint, pored equal amounts of the epoxy and thinner into his gun , shook it up for about 30 seconds then spray the steel parts. When I asked him about the white finish he laughed and said no one will know, no one can see it now. And I was told this was the best guy around. The other guy I went to see was so drunk he kept falling over while blasting. So I built a big sand blasting pot like Doug Jacksons and went looking for a big compressor. After a couple of auctions I realized They were well out of my price range. I will buy one if I think I can resell it quickly or I will rent one. when I am ready. Just last week I bought a 15 hp, 4 gpm, 4000psi pressure washer and a wet blasting attachment. I was only able to use it once but it worked great. The pressure washer alone took the clear coat right off my car! With the wet blasting attachment it took the paint off my sons bike in less then 30 seconds and I started to work on my rudder and it took the steel down to a white finish in no time. So I am very happy that I can get going on building more parts!| 30191|30186|2013-05-11 17:27:17|brentswain38|Re: bulwarks|2 inch would definitely be too hard to bend. 1 inch a bit small for a 40 footer. Too floppy for a hull that size.1 1/4 inch to 1 1/2 inch would be best. 3/4 or 1 inch is good for any part of the lifelines. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > Ok, > > so, me thinks that there be a few options from 1" through 2" for the pipe selection when making the bulwarks. > > for the forty footer, what seems optimum?? > Is the 2 inch too hard to bend / manipulate??. > is the 1 inch too small? > what are the pros and cons of the different sizes??? > > I be thinking 1.5 inch bulwark, with 3/4 stands to 1 inch rails. > > any thoughts, or ideas about options, pros and cons would be appreciated. > > thanks, > > Par > | 30192|30186|2013-05-11 17:36:45|brentswain38|Re: bulwarks|The trick to geting adequate strength welding chainplates to the bulwark pipe is to make the base of the chainplates long enough, at least 6 inches. There is far more cross section of bulwark pipe both sides, than the cross section of the turnbuckle, and rigging wire. Much shorter chain plate bases , around 2 inches ,have been known to pull out. Senseless, when it is so easy to make the base, and thus the attachment, three times as long , or more. With existing short chainplates, it is easy to make up the length with gussets either side of the chain plate. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > While we are on bulwarks, no problems with the rigging attached to the bulwarks? The pipe that I have is seemless, 304 stainless, 2" OD with a .125 or greater wall thickness. I have 3/8" & 1/2" stainless steel plate for chain plates, not sure which one I would use. > Thank you, > James > --- On Sat, 5/11/13, wild_explorer wrote: > > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bulwarks > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Saturday, May 11, 2013, 12:40 AM > > > >   > > > > I use what Brent recommends - 1 1/2" (1.5") schedule 40 SS 316L pipe. Which has 1.9" OD with 0.145" wall. When you lift up 20ft pipe, it flexes. Personally, I would not experiment... Try to find pipe for bulwark as close as possible what Brent specifies. > > Or.. You may figure out what stiffness this pipe has and compare what is available locally close to the specs. > > http://easycalculation.com/mechanical/deflection-round-tube-beams.php > > http://www.meracalculator.com/engineering/deflection-round-tube-beams.php > > http://www.calculatoredge.com/civil%20engg%20calculator/beam.htm > > It was already mentioned about possibility to weld something to bulwark pipe. I think it is important what total height of bulwark (plate+pipe) you want to have as well. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > so, me thinks that there be a few options from 1" through 2" for the pipe selection when making the bulwarks. > > > > for the forty footer, what seems optimum?? > > Is the 2 inch too hard to bend / manipulate??. > > is the 1 inch too small? > > what are the pros and cons of the different sizes??? > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30193|30190|2013-05-11 17:51:16|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting|We got wheelabraded and primed steel from Portland oregon,from Garry Steel, I believe. Delivered to Sausalito CA. I have seen some hard core alcoholics in the sandblasting business. The bigger the compresor the cheaper and cleaner the job. Ask the blaster how big his compresor is, those with huge compresors charge the same hourly rate as those with small compresors, but get it done in a lot fewer hours and do a better job.I have sen a 600CFM compresor blast a 38 footer, well, in three hours. Large compressors and blasting pots can be rented from industrial rental places. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > So after a lot of running around and time spent on the phone, I gave up on wheel abraded plate. No supplier could (or would even try) get it for me in this area. > > This has been a big problem because I am not building everything at once and I want to assemble parts that I will not be able to sandblast later (insides of keels rudder and skeg) > > The commercial sand blasters I talked to we something else. The prices were unbelievable. The price of the steel was cheaper then the one guys quot. I watched one guy do a job, I saw the work order, "blast to white finish paint with two part zinc rich epoxy". The guy went over the steel so fast, no mill scale was removed. He then took the two part paint, pored equal amounts of the epoxy and thinner into his gun , shook it up for about 30 seconds then spray the steel parts. When I asked him about the white finish he laughed and said no one will know, no one can see it now. And I was told this was the best guy around. The other guy I went to see was so drunk he kept falling over while blasting. > > So I built a big sand blasting pot like Doug Jacksons and went looking for a big compressor. After a couple of auctions I realized They were well out of my price range. I will buy one if I think I can resell it quickly or I will rent one. when I am ready. > > Just last week I bought a 15 hp, 4 gpm, 4000psi pressure washer and a wet blasting attachment. I was only able to use it once but it worked great. The pressure washer alone took the clear coat right off my car! With the wet blasting attachment it took the paint off my sons bike in less then 30 seconds and I started to work on my rudder and it took the steel down to a white finish in no time. So I am very happy that I can get going on building more parts! > | 30194|30190|2013-05-11 19:10:45|James Pronk|Re: Sandblasting|I have a big pot and I can rent a 600 CFM compressor. I need a different gun for that much air, but that should not be a problem. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30195|30190|2013-05-11 20:34:44|wild_explorer|Re: Sandblasting|Hand sandblasting is much more expensive, but it gives less plate warpage (especially with 11ga steel). Painting by supplier is another problem - really depends on your luck and who paints it. I have some spots which were wheelabrited, some shots stuck to the plate and were painted over. Looks like nobody cleaned it after blasting. From some spots I brushed the primer right off the plate by a glove ;( Not a big deal (main reason was to have steel blasted) - just shows QA problem. If I had option to paint it by myself, I definitely would not screw up much more ;) I see that painting over strongly attached mill-scale is common practice (after welding and mechanically cleaning weld area) as long as steel is throughly degreased (by a rug with industrial degreaser) and painted with good industrial primer (with high solids) which gives rough surface for next coat. I ended up choosing galvanized steel for cabin & PH sides, footwell. It was cheaper than blast and prime. Would be a good idea to use it for side-deck as well. Welding and painting galvanized is another story... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > So after a lot of running around and time spent on the phone, I gave up on wheel abraded plate. No supplier could (or would even try) get it for me in this area. > > This has been a big problem because I am not building everything at once and I want to assemble parts that I will not be able to sandblast later (insides of keels rudder and skeg) > > The commercial sand blasters I talked to we something else. The prices were unbelievable. The price of the steel was cheaper then the one guys quot. | 30196|30173|2013-05-11 22:09:43|wild_explorer|Re: Side deck installation|I tried to weld deck-to-hull with E7024. One pass with 7024 @ 160A DC looks really good. Gives welding leg-size I wanted. Keeping electrode pointed more to the hull plate gives very small undercut on hull's plate sometimes. I found that keeping electrode and yourself inline with the seam works best. Just rest the sides of electrode between plates and put slight force (or gravity feed) downward into the seam. No undercuts on 3/16" or 11Ga. It just fills the seam, making nice smooth transition. Welding with 7024 gave slightly more distortion's ridge that with 3/32 E7018, which was expected. But it worse of trade off. And much faster. I tried to lower amperage for 7024, but it works better at highest electrode current's range. I went back to 160A DC. P.S. Remember the difference about welding with 7024! DO NOT maintain electrode-to-work distance as with other electrodes. Keep it touching the plates, about 30 deg from the horizontal/seam. Let electrode burn/melt at natural rate. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Keep most of the heat of a 7024 on the bulwark and let the weld sorta flow down onto the 11 guage. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent! I was afraid to experiment with 11Ga deck. 1/8" 7024 was really easy to weld with on 3/16" steel. | 30197|30190|2013-05-12 12:11:31|James Pronk|Re: Sandblasting|Hey Wild, I'm going with all galvanized 11 gauge as well, except for the rudder. I was going to build the rudder from galvanized and sandblast it to get the paint to stick well, but I thought I would be better off with just sandblasted and painting the rudder. Time will tell. I have so much 6011 electrode that I will have a hard time going out to buy 7024. I have been welding everything since I was a kid with 6011. Don't get me wrong, I love 7024, but I have 6 cases of 6011 that the school was going to toss. Hard to spend money when you have so much rod that will do the job on hand. If I get any help welding I will get the 7024 and let the help weld with it. James   --- On Sat, 5/11/13, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, May 11, 2013, 8:34 PM   Hand sandblasting is much more expensive, but it gives less plate warpage (especially with 11ga steel). Painting by supplier is another problem - really depends on your luck and who paints it. I have some spots which were wheelabrited, some shots stuck to the plate and were painted over. Looks like nobody cleaned it after blasting. From some spots I brushed the primer right off the plate by a glove ;( Not a big deal (main reason was to have steel blasted) - just shows QA problem. If I had option to paint it by myself, I definitely would not screw up much more ;) I see that painting over strongly attached mill-scale is common practice (after welding and mechanically cleaning weld area) as long as steel is throughly degreased (by a rug with industrial degreaser) and painted with good industrial primer (with high solids) which gives rough surface for next coat. I ended up choosing galvanized steel for cabin & PH sides, footwell. It was cheaper than blast and prime. Would be a good idea to use it for side-deck as well. Welding and painting galvanized is another story... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > So after a lot of running around and time spent on the phone, I gave up on wheel abraded plate. No supplier could (or would even try) get it for me in this area. > > This has been a big problem because I am not building everything at once and I want to assemble parts that I will not be able to sandblast later (insides of keels rudder and skeg) > > The commercial sand blasters I talked to we something else. The prices were unbelievable. The price of the steel was cheaper then the one guys quot. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30198|30190|2013-05-12 12:56:30|wild_explorer|Re: Sandblasting|James, I took a look what rental rates for diesel powered compressors 185-850 cfm are... About $135-400 a day. Pretty expensive for big ones.... 185cfm for $135/day not so bad if you have everything else (for blasting/painting) - possible to finish blasting/painting in 2-3 days. 3500-4000 psi pressure washers are pretty expensive to buy. 3000 psi/2.7Gpm would not be enough for wet blasting. Needs about 4Gpm??? I had to order regular steel (blasted & primed later) for cabin/PH tops simply because it was available in wider sheets than galvanized. For welding galvanized, it is recommended to use 6011 rod. It is need to keep the rod (and metal) as cool as possible welding galvanized (low current? short welds?). I like 6011 - very universal rod for a boat. I got 7018 and 6013 just because it was noticeably cheaper than 6011, 7024 was almost the same price as 6011 ;) I am getting to a point of abandoning 6013. 7018 requires DC welder. I need to get more 6011 for taking (and welding galvanized) - I am running out of 5Lb I got ;)) I see benefit of galvanized steel that it is possible to postpone painting for several month/years. Weathered galvanized steel takes painting better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hey Wild, > I'm going with all galvanized 11 gauge as well, except for the rudder. I was going to build the rudder from galvanized and sandblast it to get the paint to stick well, but I thought I would be better off with just sandblasted and painting the rudder. Time will tell. > I have so much 6011 electrode that I will have a hard time going out to buy 7024. I have been welding everything since I was a kid with 6011. Don't get me wrong, I love 7024, but I have 6 cases of 6011 that the school was going to toss. Hard to spend money when you have so much rod that will do the job on hand. > If I get any help welding I will get the 7024 and let the help weld with it. > James | 30199|30190|2013-05-12 13:09:08|martin demers|Re: Sandblasting|when you rent a compressor, go for a weekend rent it is hardly more expensive then for one day. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 16:56:29 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting James, I took a look what rental rates for diesel powered compressors 185-850 cfm are... About $135-400 a day. Pretty expensive for big ones.... 185cfm for $135/day not so bad if you have everything else (for blasting/painting) - possible to finish blasting/painting in 2-3 days. 3500-4000 psi pressure washers are pretty expensive to buy. 3000 psi/2.7Gpm would not be enough for wet blasting. Needs about 4Gpm??? I had to order regular steel (blasted & primed later) for cabin/PH tops simply because it was available in wider sheets than galvanized. For welding galvanized, it is recommended to use 6011 rod. It is need to keep the rod (and metal) as cool as possible welding galvanized (low current? short welds?). I like 6011 - very universal rod for a boat. I got 7018 and 6013 just because it was noticeably cheaper than 6011, 7024 was almost the same price as 6011 ;) I am getting to a point of abandoning 6013. 7018 requires DC welder. I need to get more 6011 for taking (and welding galvanized) - I am running out of 5Lb I got ;)) I see benefit of galvanized steel that it is possible to postpone painting for several month/years. Weathered galvanized steel takes painting better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hey Wild, > I'm going with all galvanized 11 gauge as well, except for the rudder. I was going to build the rudder from galvanized and sandblast it to get the paint to stick well, but I thought I would be better off with just sandblasted and painting the rudder. Time will tell. > I have so much 6011 electrode that I will have a hard time going out to buy 7024. I have been welding everything since I was a kid with 6011. Don't get me wrong, I love 7024, but I have 6 cases of 6011 that the school was going to toss. Hard to spend money when you have so much rod that will do the job on hand. > If I get any help welding I will get the 7024 and let the help weld with it. > James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30200|30190|2013-05-12 14:25:00|wild_explorer|Re: Sandblasting|Well... In my area price (from Internet) from big rental company for 185CFM diesel powered air compressor: Daily: $135 Weekly: $425 4 Week: $1,100 375 CFM diesel powered air compressor: Daily: $290 Weekly: $675 4 Week: $1,895 375 CFM diesel powered air compressor: Daily: $370 Weekly: $1,135 4 Week: $3,295 I guess, that it is need to pay for insurance or some others fees... May be it depends where you rent it.... I think that they take "credit application" as well - not everyone can rent it. Some other local companies are cheaper, but weekly rates are equal to about 3-4 days of daily rental price: 185 CFM - $85/$340 375 CFM - $175/$650 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > when you rent a compressor, go for a weekend rent it is hardly more expensive then for one day. > Martin. > | 30201|30190|2013-05-12 14:37:08|James Pronk|Re: Sandblasting|I ran into a friend today that rents 300CFM + compressors for his work and might be able to get me a deal on a weekend rate. James --- On Sun, 5/12/13, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Sunday, May 12, 2013, 1:09 PM when you rent a compressor, go for a weekend rent it is hardly more expensive then for one day. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 16:56:29 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting                         James, I took a look what rental rates for diesel powered compressors 185-850 cfm are... About $135-400 a day. Pretty expensive for big ones.... 185cfm for $135/day not so bad if you have everything else (for blasting/painting) - possible to finish blasting/painting in 2-3 days. 3500-4000 psi pressure washers are pretty expensive to buy. 3000 psi/2.7Gpm would not be enough for wet blasting. Needs about 4Gpm??? I had to order regular steel (blasted & primed later) for cabin/PH tops simply because it was available in wider sheets than galvanized. For welding galvanized, it is recommended to use 6011 rod. It is need to keep the rod (and metal) as cool as possible welding galvanized (low current? short welds?). I like 6011 - very universal rod for a boat. I got 7018 and 6013 just because it was noticeably cheaper than 6011, 7024 was almost the same price as 6011 ;) I am getting to a point of abandoning 6013. 7018 requires DC welder. I need to get more 6011 for taking (and welding galvanized) - I am running out of 5Lb I got ;)) I see benefit of galvanized steel that it is possible to postpone painting for several month/years. Weathered galvanized steel takes painting better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hey Wild, > I'm going with all galvanized 11 gauge as well, except for the rudder. I was going to build the rudder from galvanized and sandblast it to get the paint to stick well, but I thought I would be better off with just sandblasted and painting the rudder. Time will tell. > I have so much 6011 electrode that I will have a hard time going out to buy 7024. I have been welding everything since I was a kid with 6011. Don't get me wrong, I love 7024, but I have 6 cases of 6011 that the school was going to toss. Hard to spend money when you have so much rod that will do the job on hand. > If I get any help welding I will get the 7024 and let the help weld with it. > James                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30202|30190|2013-05-12 16:34:25|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting|Warping from shot blasting has never been a problem on any boat I have built. Mill scale left on will react with the steel, causing electrolysis, and pitting --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Hand sandblasting is much more expensive, but it gives less plate warpage (especially with 11ga steel). Painting by supplier is another problem - really depends on your luck and who paints it. > > I have some spots which were wheelabrited, some shots stuck to the plate and were painted over. Looks like nobody cleaned it after blasting. From some spots I brushed the primer right off the plate by a glove ;( Not a big deal (main reason was to have steel blasted) - just shows QA problem. > > If I had option to paint it by myself, I definitely would not screw up much more ;) > > I see that painting over strongly attached mill-scale is common practice (after welding and mechanically cleaning weld area) as long as steel is throughly degreased (by a rug with industrial degreaser) and painted with good industrial primer (with high solids) which gives rough surface for next coat. > > I ended up choosing galvanized steel for cabin & PH sides, footwell. It was cheaper than blast and prime. Would be a good idea to use it for side-deck as well. Welding and painting galvanized is another story... > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > So after a lot of running around and time spent on the phone, I gave up on wheel abraded plate. No supplier could (or would even try) get it for me in this area. > > > > This has been a big problem because I am not building everything at once and I want to assemble parts that I will not be able to sandblast later (insides of keels rudder and skeg) > > > > The commercial sand blasters I talked to we something else. The prices were unbelievable. The price of the steel was cheaper then the one guys quot. > | 30203|30190|2013-05-12 17:37:50|Paul Wilson|Re: Sandblasting|Wet blasting works well on a small item but doing an entire boat would be a very slow and frustrating process. I found the sand is almost impossible to keep dry and it constantly jams up in the feed tube. When I sandblasted my boat years ago, it was $600 for all the equipment for a weekend. It was a big compressor (400 cfm) with a 3/8 inch nozzle and 300 pound pressure pot. Wrestling with the 3 inch sand hose all day felt like I was trying to capturing a boa constrictor. It worked bloody well though. The whole outside of the boat was done in about 5 hours, if I remember correctly. Renting it for more than one day is good since there is a lot of screwing around when you are not familiar with the equipment. Having two people is good. One can feed the sand while one blasts. My wife (ex) passed out after complaining about lifting the 85 bags of sand into the hopper. I think she got dehydrated since it was the hottest day of the year. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 13/05/2013 4:56 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > James, > > I took a look what rental rates for diesel powered compressors 185-850 > cfm are... About $135-400 a day. Pretty expensive for big ones.... > 185cfm for $135/day not so bad if you have everything else (for > blasting/painting) - possible to finish blasting/painting in 2-3 days. > > 3500-4000 psi pressure washers are pretty expensive to buy. 3000 > psi/2.7Gpm would not be enough for wet blasting. Needs about 4Gpm??? > > I had to order regular steel (blasted & primed later) for cabin/PH > tops simply because it was available in wider sheets than galvanized. > > For welding galvanized, it is recommended to use 6011 rod. It is need > to keep the rod (and metal) as cool as possible welding galvanized > (low current? short welds?). I like 6011 - very universal rod for a boat. > > I got 7018 and 6013 just because it was noticeably cheaper than 6011, > 7024 was almost the same price as 6011 ;) I am getting to a point of > abandoning 6013. 7018 requires DC welder. I need to get more 6011 for > taking (and welding galvanized) - I am running out of 5Lb I got ;)) > > I see benefit of galvanized steel that it is possible to postpone > painting for several month/years. Weathered galvanized steel takes > painting better. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , James Pronk wrote: > > > > Hey Wild, > > I'm going with all galvanized 11 gauge as well, except for the > rudder. I was going to build the rudder from galvanized and sandblast > it to get the paint to stick well, but I thought I would be better off > with just sandblasted and painting the rudder. Time will tell. > > I have so much 6011 electrode that I will have a hard time going out > to buy 7024. I have been welding everything since I was a kid with > 6011. Don't get me wrong, I love 7024, but I have 6 cases of 6011 that > the school was going to toss. Hard to spend money when you have so > much rod that will do the job on hand. > > If I get any help welding I will get the 7024 and let the help weld > with it. > > James > > | 30204|30190|2013-05-12 21:44:12|wild_explorer|Re: Sandblasting|May be "warping" is incorrect term. I do not know how to call it... May be "pinning effect"? Similar what happens when you hit the plate with sharp pointed hammer (making a line). It bends at that line. Same is happening during wheelabriting. Shots hit not all plate at the same time, but plate is moving through the machine. It depends how fast plate is processed through the machine and at what rate shots are fed. I did notice some distortion of 11ga plate after wheelabriting. Just to make it clear... It is need to take into an account the stiffness of the plate in relation to its thickness. Lets take 11ga plate as base material with stiffness = 1 For the same grade of material, stiffness of flat plate = t^3 (t=mass) 11ga - base material => 1 (5 lbs/sq.ft) 10ga - +10% => 1.12 (5.6 lbs/sq.ft) 3/16" - +53% => 1.53 (7.65 lbs/sq.ft) From this we can calculate difference in flat plate thickness: 11ga - 1*1*1=1 10ga - 1.12*1.12*1.12=1.4 => 40% increase in stiffness 3/16" - 1.53*1.53*1.53=3.58 => 240% increase in stiffness So... The difference in weight between 11ga and 10ga is 12%, but difference in stiffness is 40%! I guess 40% increase in stiffness will make the difference. P.S. Wheelabriters have no problems to process 3/16" plate. Now you see why... P.S.S. I hope, I calculated it right. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Warping from shot blasting has never been a problem on any boat I have built. > Mill scale left on will react with the steel, causing electrolysis, and pitting > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Hand sandblasting is much more expensive, but it gives less plate warpage (especially with 11ga steel). | 30205|2619|2013-05-12 22:18:22|x|Aluminum vs Steel|With the cost: * Sandblasting * Priming * Finish Painting * Annual maintenance * and dealing with the people who do the above for money I have concluded that aluminum hull is less money and frustration for me (powerboat). But, I do love the way my steel boat sails (Swain 36). Owning both types for several years really shows each materials assets and weaknesses. People who sandblast here have issues (drug, alcohol, etc). Referenced boats: 36' (+1') Swain, built 1996 Dan Henkel and Brent Swain 30' Hewescraft| 30206|30206|2013-05-12 22:43:33|x|Universal 5432 (Kubota D850), Oberdorfer N202M-15|Maintenance on Swain 36 engine; I am changing the saltwater pump on my Universal 5432 (Kubota D850) from the original Sherwood (Old universal pump #298890 new Weterbeke part #301357) to an Oberdorfer N202M-15. On Monday purchasing Oberdorfer N202M-15 from http://www.marinepumpdirect.com . Am I doing this right? Anyone changed to Oberdorfer N202M-15 from the Sherwood? Thanks!| 30207|30190|2013-05-13 09:45:59|haidan|Re: Sandblasting|This is true, when I did mine I picked the compressor up saturday morning at 6am and returned it on monday around noon and got charged for one day. I think it was 95 dollars. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > when you rent a compressor, go for a weekend rent it is hardly more expensive then for one day. > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 16:56:29 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > James, > > > > I took a look what rental rates for diesel powered compressors 185-850 cfm are... About $135-400 a day. Pretty expensive for big ones.... 185cfm for $135/day not so bad if you have everything else (for blasting/painting) - possible to finish blasting/painting in 2-3 days. > > > > 3500-4000 psi pressure washers are pretty expensive to buy. 3000 psi/2.7Gpm would not be enough for wet blasting. Needs about 4Gpm??? > > > > I had to order regular steel (blasted & primed later) for cabin/PH tops simply because it was available in wider sheets than galvanized. > > > > For welding galvanized, it is recommended to use 6011 rod. It is need to keep the rod (and metal) as cool as possible welding galvanized (low current? short welds?). I like 6011 - very universal rod for a boat. > > > > I got 7018 and 6013 just because it was noticeably cheaper than 6011, 7024 was almost the same price as 6011 ;) I am getting to a point of abandoning 6013. 7018 requires DC welder. I need to get more 6011 for taking (and welding galvanized) - I am running out of 5Lb I got ;)) > > > > I see benefit of galvanized steel that it is possible to postpone painting for several month/years. Weathered galvanized steel takes painting better. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > Hey Wild, > > > I'm going with all galvanized 11 gauge as well, except for the rudder. I was going to build the rudder from galvanized and sandblast it to get the paint to stick well, but I thought I would be better off with just sandblasted and painting the rudder. Time will tell. > > > I have so much 6011 electrode that I will have a hard time going out to buy 7024. I have been welding everything since I was a kid with 6011. Don't get me wrong, I love 7024, but I have 6 cases of 6011 that the school was going to toss. Hard to spend money when you have so much rod that will do the job on hand. > > > If I get any help welding I will get the 7024 and let the help weld with it. > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30208|30208|2013-05-13 10:05:31|philip|would it be possible to make an offshore yatch light weight|cauld you make an offsore yatch the same or near weight as a trailer sailer| 30209|2619|2013-05-13 10:58:39|wild_explorer|Re: Aluminum vs Steel|If you go for aluminum, you need to do scantling (from steel to aluminum). At least to match flat plate stiffness for the hull and superstructure. Plus longitudinal stiffeners and bulwark pipe. May be someone who already built Brent's boat in aluminum did the math (structural and cost). It would be interesting to see it. May not be much benefits/savings at the end (material, weight, welding, foaming, coating). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > With the cost: > > * Sandblasting > * Priming > * Finish Painting > * Annual maintenance > * and dealing with the people who do the above for money > > I have concluded that aluminum hull is less money and frustration for me (powerboat). But, I do love the way my steel boat sails (Swain 36). > | 30210|30190|2013-05-13 12:38:02|martin demers|Re: Sandblasting|sounds good! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 11:37:07 -0700 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting I ran into a friend today that rents 300CFM + compressors for his work and might be able to get me a deal on a weekend rate. James --- On Sun, 5/12/13, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Sunday, May 12, 2013, 1:09 PM when you rent a compressor, go for a weekend rent it is hardly more expensive then for one day. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 16:56:29 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting James, I took a look what rental rates for diesel powered compressors 185-850 cfm are... About $135-400 a day. Pretty expensive for big ones.... 185cfm for $135/day not so bad if you have everything else (for blasting/painting) - possible to finish blasting/painting in 2-3 days. 3500-4000 psi pressure washers are pretty expensive to buy. 3000 psi/2.7Gpm would not be enough for wet blasting. Needs about 4Gpm??? I had to order regular steel (blasted & primed later) for cabin/PH tops simply because it was available in wider sheets than galvanized. For welding galvanized, it is recommended to use 6011 rod. It is need to keep the rod (and metal) as cool as possible welding galvanized (low current? short welds?). I like 6011 - very universal rod for a boat. I got 7018 and 6013 just because it was noticeably cheaper than 6011, 7024 was almost the same price as 6011 ;) I am getting to a point of abandoning 6013. 7018 requires DC welder. I need to get more 6011 for taking (and welding galvanized) - I am running out of 5Lb I got ;)) I see benefit of galvanized steel that it is possible to postpone painting for several month/years. Weathered galvanized steel takes painting better. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hey Wild, > I'm going with all galvanized 11 gauge as well, except for the rudder. I was going to build the rudder from galvanized and sandblast it to get the paint to stick well, but I thought I would be better off with just sandblasted and painting the rudder. Time will tell. > I have so much 6011 electrode that I will have a hard time going out to buy 7024. I have been welding everything since I was a kid with 6011. Don't get me wrong, I love 7024, but I have 6 cases of 6011 that the school was going to toss. Hard to spend money when you have so much rod that will do the job on hand. > If I get any help welding I will get the 7024 and let the help weld with it. > James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30211|30190|2013-05-13 14:03:09|James Pronk|Re: Sandblasting|Hello Haidan What size compressor did you rent? Do you remember how much sand you used? Thank you, James --- On Mon, 5/13/13, haidan wrote: From: haidan Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, May 13, 2013, 9:45 AM   This is true, when I did mine I picked the compressor up saturday morning at 6am and returned it on monday around noon and got charged for one day. I think it was 95 dollars. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > when you rent a compressor, go for a weekend rent it is hardly more expensive then for one day. > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: williswildest@... > Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 16:56:29 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > James, > > > > I took a look what rental rates for diesel powered compressors 185-850 cfm are... About $135-400 a day. Pretty expensive for big ones.... 185cfm for $135/day not so bad if you have everything else (for blasting/painting) - possible to finish blasting/painting in 2-3 days. > > > > 3500-4000 psi pressure washers are pretty expensive to buy. 3000 psi/2.7Gpm would not be enough for wet blasting. Needs about 4Gpm??? > > > > I had to order regular steel (blasted & primed later) for cabin/PH tops simply because it was available in wider sheets than galvanized. > > > > For welding galvanized, it is recommended to use 6011 rod. It is need to keep the rod (and metal) as cool as possible welding galvanized (low current? short welds?). I like 6011 - very universal rod for a boat. > > > > I got 7018 and 6013 just because it was noticeably cheaper than 6011, 7024 was almost the same price as 6011 ;) I am getting to a point of abandoning 6013. 7018 requires DC welder. I need to get more 6011 for taking (and welding galvanized) - I am running out of 5Lb I got ;)) > > > > I see benefit of galvanized steel that it is possible to postpone painting for several month/years. Weathered galvanized steel takes painting better. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > Hey Wild, > > > I'm going with all galvanized 11 gauge as well, except for the rudder. I was going to build the rudder from galvanized and sandblast it to get the paint to stick well, but I thought I would be better off with just sandblasted and painting the rudder. Time will tell. > > > I have so much 6011 electrode that I will have a hard time going out to buy 7024. I have been welding everything since I was a kid with 6011. Don't get me wrong, I love 7024, but I have 6 cases of 6011 that the school was going to toss. Hard to spend money when you have so much rod that will do the job on hand. > > > If I get any help welding I will get the 7024 and let the help weld with it. > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30212|30190|2013-05-13 15:11:59|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting|With the number of stiffeners on the decks and the curve of cabin tops, peening of the plate with shot has never been a problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > May be "warping" is incorrect term. I do not know how to call it... May be "pinning effect"? Similar what happens when you hit the plate with sharp pointed hammer (making a line). It bends at that line. Same is happening during wheelabriting. Shots hit not all plate at the same time, but plate is moving through the machine. It depends how fast plate is processed through the machine and at what rate shots are fed. > > I did notice some distortion of 11ga plate after wheelabriting. > > Just to make it clear... It is need to take into an account the stiffness of the plate in relation to its thickness. > > Lets take 11ga plate as base material with stiffness = 1 > > For the same grade of material, stiffness of flat plate = t^3 (t=mass) > > 11ga - base material => 1 (5 lbs/sq.ft) > 10ga - +10% => 1.12 (5.6 lbs/sq.ft) > 3/16" - +53% => 1.53 (7.65 lbs/sq.ft) > > From this we can calculate difference in flat plate thickness: > > 11ga - 1*1*1=1 > 10ga - 1.12*1.12*1.12=1.4 => 40% increase in stiffness > 3/16" - 1.53*1.53*1.53=3.58 => 240% increase in stiffness > > So... The difference in weight between 11ga and 10ga is 12%, but difference in stiffness is 40%! I guess 40% increase in stiffness will make the difference. > > P.S. Wheelabriters have no problems to process 3/16" plate. Now you see why... > P.S.S. I hope, I calculated it right. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Warping from shot blasting has never been a problem on any boat I have built. > > Mill scale left on will react with the steel, causing electrolysis, and pitting > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > Hand sandblasting is much more expensive, but it gives less plate warpage (especially with 11ga steel). > | 30213|2619|2013-05-13 15:34:49|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum vs Steel|When all the steel for a 36 was $6,000 a friend bought all the aluminium for a 36. Laying on the ground, uncut, it cost him $20,000 A freind who builds aluminium boats including Americas cup boats, told me he found the only reliable way to get paint to stick to aluminium was to sand blast it. I had an aluminium dinghy last time I wa sin Tonga. I had to paint he part above the waterline, in the stern, white, so I wouldn't burn my feet on it. Bare aluminium in the tropics gets hot enough in the sun to burn you instantly if you touch it. It's extremely hard to find effective antifouling which wont react with aluminium. It's a constant strrugle for my friends with aluminium boats. Steel boats are more prone to corrosion above the waterline, where you can see it and deal with it easily Aluminium is great above the waterline ,but can disappear rapidly below the waterline, where it surprises you. Zincs protect a steel boat below the waterline.I have had bare steel on the bottoms of my keels for 29 years now, no visible corrosion, no pitting and no problems. Steel welds are far more reliable than aluminium, being 100% plus, of the strength of the surounding metal, whereas aluminium is only 80% at best and an aluminium weld is extremely easy to screw up. If I had infinite money, I would consider a steel hull with an aluminium cabin and wheelhouse . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > With the cost: > > * Sandblasting > * Priming > * Finish Painting > * Annual maintenance > * and dealing with the people who do the above for money > > I have concluded that aluminum hull is less money and frustration for me (powerboat). But, I do love the way my steel boat sails (Swain 36). > > Owning both types for several years really shows each materials assets and weaknesses. People who sandblast here have issues (drug, alcohol, etc). > > Referenced boats: > 36' (+1') Swain, built 1996 Dan Henkel and Brent Swain > 30' Hewescraft > | 30214|30206|2013-05-13 15:38:06|brentswain38|Re: Universal 5432 (Kubota D850), Oberdorfer N202M-15|There should be no saltwater pump on a BS 36, as the skeg is the keel cooler, and most run dry exhuast. Those who dont initially, eventually do, as they become enlightened --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > Maintenance on Swain 36 engine; > > I am changing the saltwater pump on my Universal 5432 (Kubota D850) from the original Sherwood (Old universal pump #298890 new Weterbeke part #301357) to an Oberdorfer N202M-15. > > On Monday purchasing Oberdorfer N202M-15 from http://www.marinepumpdirect.com . > > Am I doing this right? Anyone changed to Oberdorfer N202M-15 from the Sherwood? > > Thanks! > | 30215|2619|2013-05-13 15:39:58|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum vs Steel|They have been done with 1/4 inch hull plate, 3/16th decks and cabin , 5/16th keel sides and half inch keel bottom, which is common for an aluminium boat that size. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > If you go for aluminum, you need to do scantling (from steel to aluminum). At least to match flat plate stiffness for the hull and superstructure. Plus longitudinal stiffeners and bulwark pipe. > > May be someone who already built Brent's boat in aluminum did the math (structural and cost). It would be interesting to see it. May not be much benefits/savings at the end (material, weight, welding, foaming, coating). > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > With the cost: > > > > * Sandblasting > > * Priming > > * Finish Painting > > * Annual maintenance > > * and dealing with the people who do the above for money > > > > I have concluded that aluminum hull is less money and frustration for me (powerboat). But, I do love the way my steel boat sails (Swain 36). > > > | 30216|2619|2013-05-13 16:43:02|Paul Wilson|Re: Aluminum vs Steel|Me too..... >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 14/05/2013 7:34 a.m., brentswain38 wrote: > If I had infinite money, I would consider a steel hull with an > aluminium cabin and wheelhouse . | 30217|2619|2013-05-13 18:09:24|x|Re: Aluminum vs Steel|Hi Brent, I agree that below the waterline steel is very good. Our Swain 37 is almost 20 years old and the underwater surface is perfect. It should last a life time. The above water surfaces take a little maintenance. But, very little work is needed. The aluminum boat we have is dry stored at Honokahau Harbor, Kona. It does have bottom paint however (Trilux) over Primocon. The Primocon sticks to oxidized aluminum with just a little roughing up. Primocon is a one part primer which works great on steel and aluminum. The boat is put on a trailer, hosed down with fresh water after use and has never had any further maintenance. There is no paint on most of the topsides. I expect never to do anything to the topsides except spray fresh water on it for the life of he boat. Our steel Swain is built like a "Sherman Tank" and I would NOT trade it for aluminum just yet. Steel construction takes a certain knowledge and mission to make it work well. The Swain 36 fits our needs and I would not change much on it. Thank you for the boat, plans, and book! Makena, Ala Wai Hbr. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > When all the steel for a 36 was $6,000 a friend bought all the aluminium for a 36. Laying on the ground, uncut, it cost him $20,000 > A freind who builds aluminium boats including Americas cup boats, told me he found the only reliable way to get paint to stick to aluminium was to sand blast it. > I had an aluminium dinghy last time I wa sin Tonga. I had to paint he part above the waterline, in the stern, white, so I wouldn't burn my feet on it. Bare aluminium in the tropics gets hot enough in the sun to burn you instantly if you touch it. > It's extremely hard to find effective antifouling which wont react with aluminium. It's a constant strrugle for my friends with aluminium boats. > Steel boats are more prone to corrosion above the waterline, where you can see it and deal with it easily Aluminium is great above the waterline ,but can disappear rapidly below the waterline, where it surprises you. Zincs protect a steel boat below the waterline.I have had bare steel on the bottoms of my keels for 29 years now, no visible corrosion, no pitting and no problems. > Steel welds are far more reliable than aluminium, being 100% plus, of the strength of the surounding metal, whereas aluminium is only 80% at best and an aluminium weld is extremely easy to screw up. > If I had infinite money, I would consider a steel hull with an aluminium cabin and wheelhouse . > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > With the cost: > > > > * Sandblasting > > * Priming > > * Finish Painting > > * Annual maintenance > > * and dealing with the people who do the above for money > > > > I have concluded that aluminum hull is less money and frustration for me (powerboat). But, I do love the way my steel boat sails (Swain 36). > > > > Owning both types for several years really shows each materials assets and weaknesses. People who sandblast here have issues (drug, alcohol, etc). > > > > Referenced boats: > > 36' (+1') Swain, built 1996 Dan Henkel and Brent Swain > > 30' Hewescraft > > > | 30218|30206|2013-05-13 18:19:29|x|Re: Universal 5432 (Kubota D850), Oberdorfer N202M-15|Hi Brent, In the tropics I like the water cooled exhaust. It keeps inside cabin temps lower, which ultimately makes being below deck more comfortable. Also, every degree in engine ambient temperature decreases manifold pressure. Cooler intake air means more power. In higher latitudes dry exhaust make more sense to me. Especially after seeing the price of a Oberdorfer or Sherwood raw water pump! Thank you for the great boat! -Makena --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > There should be no saltwater pump on a BS 36, as the skeg is the keel cooler, and most run dry exhuast. Those who dont initially, eventually do, as they become enlightened > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > Maintenance on Swain 36 engine; > > > > I am changing the saltwater pump on my Universal 5432 (Kubota D850) from the original Sherwood (Old universal pump #298890 new Weterbeke part #301357) to an Oberdorfer N202M-15. > > > > On Monday purchasing Oberdorfer N202M-15 from http://www.marinepumpdirect.com . > > > > Am I doing this right? Anyone changed to Oberdorfer N202M-15 from the Sherwood? > > > > Thanks! > > > | 30219|30208|2013-05-13 21:10:47|Brian Stannard|Re: would it be possible to make an offshore yatch light weight|Not if it is built of steel. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:05 AM, philip wrote: > ** > > > cauld you make an offsore yatch the same or near weight as a trailer sailer > > > -- Cheers Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30220|30190|2013-05-14 10:11:48|haidan|Re: Sandblasting|I think it was 1 185 cfpm compressor, a diesel powered one on a trailer and I used just over a whole pallet of sand which is 50 bags I think? I had to go get three more bags monday morning to finish off the outside of the hull. the sand cost about 500 bucks. the sandblating gear was a homemade hopper with some big long hoses. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hello Haidan > What size compressor did you rent? Do you remember how much sand you used? > Thank you, > James > > --- On Mon, 5/13/13, haidan wrote: > > > From: haidan > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Monday, May 13, 2013, 9:45 AM > > > >   > > > > This is true, when I did mine I picked the compressor up saturday morning at 6am and returned it on monday around noon and got charged for one day. I think it was 95 dollars. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > when you rent a compressor, go for a weekend rent it is hardly more expensive then for one day. > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: williswildest@ > > Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 16:56:29 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > James, > > > > > > > > I took a look what rental rates for diesel powered compressors 185-850 cfm are... About $135-400 a day. Pretty expensive for big ones.... 185cfm for $135/day not so bad if you have everything else (for blasting/painting) - possible to finish blasting/painting in 2-3 days. > > > > > > > > 3500-4000 psi pressure washers are pretty expensive to buy. 3000 psi/2.7Gpm would not be enough for wet blasting. Needs about 4Gpm??? > > > > > > > > I had to order regular steel (blasted & primed later) for cabin/PH tops simply because it was available in wider sheets than galvanized. > > > > > > > > For welding galvanized, it is recommended to use 6011 rod. It is need to keep the rod (and metal) as cool as possible welding galvanized (low current? short welds?). I like 6011 - very universal rod for a boat. > > > > > > > > I got 7018 and 6013 just because it was noticeably cheaper than 6011, 7024 was almost the same price as 6011 ;) I am getting to a point of abandoning 6013. 7018 requires DC welder. I need to get more 6011 for taking (and welding galvanized) - I am running out of 5Lb I got ;)) > > > > > > > > I see benefit of galvanized steel that it is possible to postpone painting for several month/years. Weathered galvanized steel takes painting better. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hey Wild, > > > > > I'm going with all galvanized 11 gauge as well, except for the rudder. I was going to build the rudder from galvanized and sandblast it to get the paint to stick well, but I thought I would be better off with just sandblasted and painting the rudder. Time will tell. > > > > > I have so much 6011 electrode that I will have a hard time going out to buy 7024. I have been welding everything since I was a kid with 6011. Don't get me wrong, I love 7024, but I have 6 cases of 6011 that the school was going to toss. Hard to spend money when you have so much rod that will do the job on hand. > > > > > If I get any help welding I will get the 7024 and let the help weld with it. > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30221|30221|2013-05-15 16:42:18|wild_explorer|Project Planning - Transporting|Looks like I may run into another problem - transporting boat from building site to water. My building site is located in city limits and will require to move a boat under traffic lights and power/comm lines. And it is need to have some clearance between boat/keel and ground as well. So, even using hydraulic trailer it is kind of pushing the limit. It may require to postpone installation of safety rails and pilothouse. I will rather install keel than PH. Oregon has following limits: - Permits are required for all oversize boats when being transported. Oversize being any vessel exceeding 8.6 wide and over 13.6 tall when loaded. - A escort vehicle is required when the load exceeds 14 feet wide and 14 feet tall when loaded on the transport trailer. When over hight a pole car is needed for safety. Only certain roads are approved for oversize loads. Pilot/pole cars are expensive. Note: 40ft container on a trailer is about 12ft high.| 30222|30221|2013-05-15 17:09:00|martin demers|Re: Project Planning - Transporting|would a low bed trailer, the one they use for big machinery, do the job some are at 14 in. from the ground Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 20:42:17 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Project Planning - Transporting Looks like I may run into another problem - transporting boat from building site to water. My building site is located in city limits and will require to move a boat under traffic lights and power/comm lines. And it is need to have some clearance between boat/keel and ground as well. So, even using hydraulic trailer it is kind of pushing the limit. It may require to postpone installation of safety rails and pilothouse. I will rather install keel than PH. Oregon has following limits: - Permits are required for all oversize boats when being transported. Oversize being any vessel exceeding 8.6 wide and over 13.6 tall when loaded. - A escort vehicle is required when the load exceeds 14 feet wide and 14 feet tall when loaded on the transport trailer. When over hight a pole car is needed for safety. Only certain roads are approved for oversize loads. Pilot/pole cars are expensive. Note: 40ft container on a trailer is about 12ft high. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30223|30221|2013-05-15 18:36:27|wild_explorer|Re: Project Planning - Transporting|It might, but usable bed length need to be around 40ft and it will require to have a crane for loading/unloading the boat. Looks like "wishbone" / Brownell type trailer is preferable for moving sailboat. It allows to load/unload boat without crane. And without ballast in the keel, it should not make any damage to the hull (especially if it is not keel lifting version). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > would a low bed trailer, the one they use for big machinery, do the job > some are at 14 in. from the ground > > Martin > | 30224|30221|2013-05-16 21:14:26|wild_explorer|Re: Project Planning - Transporting|Today, I talked to a driver who was delivering heavy industrial equipment nearby. He told me that in the city (and even on some interstates) it is better to keep load (trailer included) < 14ft high. Otherwise, it could be a problem to go under bridges, power/comm lines, need to have special permit for that load and approved route.| 30225|30208|2013-05-16 21:58:42|brentswain38|Re: would it be possible to make an offshore yatch light weigh|My 26 footer in aluminium would work. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > cauld you make an offsore yatch the same or near weight as a trailer sailer > | 30226|30221|2013-05-16 22:01:20|Aaron|Re: Project Planning - Transporting|Check with the city dept. of transportation. My bought a 55 Roberts in north Phoenix and had to have the City go along a drive around for the path to get the boat down to the south side by Highway 10. They made the first trip and measured the 2 bridges for clearance then again on the day of the move they had to witness the passage under each bridge he the boat had less than 2" clearance. Of course he had to pay the city fees and wages for the whole event. They used a special low boy trailer.      Aaron   ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 5:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project Planning - Transporting   Today, I talked to a driver who was delivering heavy industrial equipment nearby. He told me that in the city (and even on some interstates) it is better to keep load (trailer included) < 14ft high. Otherwise, it could be a problem to go under bridges, power/comm lines, need to have special permit for that load and approved route. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30227|30206|2013-05-16 22:02:40|brentswain38|Re: Universal 5432 (Kubota D850), Oberdorfer N202M-15|I wrap my dry exhuast in fibreglass house insulation, then 3 inch wide muffler tape, then silicone the works with cheap silicone caulking. After days of motoring in the tropics, it's still room temperature to the touch --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > In the tropics I like the water cooled exhaust. It keeps inside cabin temps lower, which ultimately makes being below deck more comfortable. > > Also, every degree in engine ambient temperature decreases manifold pressure. Cooler intake air means more power. > > In higher latitudes dry exhaust make more sense to me. Especially after seeing the price of a Oberdorfer or Sherwood raw water pump! > > Thank you for the great boat! > > -Makena > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > There should be no saltwater pump on a BS 36, as the skeg is the keel cooler, and most run dry exhuast. Those who dont initially, eventually do, as they become enlightened > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > > > Maintenance on Swain 36 engine; > > > > > > I am changing the saltwater pump on my Universal 5432 (Kubota D850) from the original Sherwood (Old universal pump #298890 new Weterbeke part #301357) to an Oberdorfer N202M-15. > > > > > > On Monday purchasing Oberdorfer N202M-15 from http://www.marinepumpdirect.com . > > > > > > Am I doing this right? Anyone changed to Oberdorfer N202M-15 from the Sherwood? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > | 30228|30221|2013-05-16 22:06:42|brentswain38|Re: Project Planning - Transporting|Commercial boat movers often have trailers which hold the keels onlyten inches off the ground . Call Dudleys. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Today, I talked to a driver who was delivering heavy industrial equipment nearby. He told me that in the city (and even on some interstates) it is better to keep load (trailer included) < 14ft high. Otherwise, it could be a problem to go under bridges, power/comm lines, need to have special permit for that load and approved route. > | 30229|30206|2013-05-17 01:29:15|x|Re: Universal 5432 (Kubota D850), Oberdorfer N202M-15|Hi Brent, As you know, my boat was built by you and Dan Henkel. Dan decided on the wet exhaust manifold during the finishing. Is there a drawing that would define how to change back to dry? Thank you for the great boat! BTW I replaced the Sherwood G908 with the Obendorfer N202M-15...it works great. The wet exhaust seems OK for now. I reinforced the riser, Dan mentioned that his design broke off ( and really shook his ears). It had no reinforcement, just the bolts on the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I wrap my dry exhuast in fibreglass house insulation, then 3 inch wide muffler tape, then silicone the works with cheap silicone caulking. After days of motoring in the tropics, it's still room temperature to the touch > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > In the tropics I like the water cooled exhaust. It keeps inside cabin temps lower, which ultimately makes being below deck more comfortable. > > > > Also, every degree in engine ambient temperature decreases manifold pressure. Cooler intake air means more power. > > > > In higher latitudes dry exhaust make more sense to me. Especially after seeing the price of a Oberdorfer or Sherwood raw water pump! > > > > Thank you for the great boat! > > > > -Makena > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > There should be no saltwater pump on a BS 36, as the skeg is the keel cooler, and most run dry exhuast. Those who dont initially, eventually do, as they become enlightened > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > > > > > Maintenance on Swain 36 engine; > > > > > > > > I am changing the saltwater pump on my Universal 5432 (Kubota D850) from the original Sherwood (Old universal pump #298890 new Weterbeke part #301357) to an Oberdorfer N202M-15. > > > > > > > > On Monday purchasing Oberdorfer N202M-15 from http://www.marinepumpdirect.com . > > > > > > > > Am I doing this right? Anyone changed to Oberdorfer N202M-15 from the Sherwood? > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > | 30230|30221|2013-05-17 15:33:02|Eric & Christine McKenney|Re: Project Planning - Transporting|legal width is 102 inches(they let canadian trailers be a bit wider metric system versus american) and height is 14 foot. communication lines must be a minimum of 14feet and bridges less than 14 must be marked. it depends on how often you will need to trailer, for a boat the permits are not that expensive for over width or overheight. both must be on approved routes unless it is totally on interstates. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: williswildest@... Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 01:14:23 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Project Planning - Transporting Today, I talked to a driver who was delivering heavy industrial equipment nearby. He told me that in the city (and even on some interstates) it is better to keep load (trailer included) < 14ft high. Otherwise, it could be a problem to go under bridges, power/comm lines, need to have special permit for that load and approved route. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30231|30206|2013-05-17 15:47:04|brentswain38|Re: Universal 5432 (Kubota D850), Oberdorfer N202M-15|From the transom,I run the 1 1/2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe foreward at about a 30 degree rise, to a point about 6 inches below the deck, then point it downward, to a point just below the cockpit, where I put whatever bends it needs, to connect with the engine. Where the pipe runs thru the transom, even with wet exhuast, you get a bit of rust were the heat affects the paint. For this reason, I now make the area within 2 or more inches from the pipe, stainless. Outside, I turn the exhuast downward, to a point three inches below the waterline, then point it back and put a rubber flap on it. I drill a quarter inch anti siphon hole where the exhuast leaves the transom. With this arangement, you dont need a muffler . It just gurgles. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > As you know, my boat was built by you and Dan Henkel. Dan decided on the wet exhaust manifold during the finishing. Is there a drawing that would define how to change back to dry? > > Thank you for the great boat! > > BTW I replaced the Sherwood G908 with the Obendorfer N202M-15...it works great. The wet exhaust seems OK for now. I reinforced the riser, Dan mentioned that his design broke off ( and really shook his ears). It had no reinforcement, just the bolts on the engine. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I wrap my dry exhuast in fibreglass house insulation, then 3 inch wide muffler tape, then silicone the works with cheap silicone caulking. After days of motoring in the tropics, it's still room temperature to the touch > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > In the tropics I like the water cooled exhaust. It keeps inside cabin temps lower, which ultimately makes being below deck more comfortable. > > > > > > Also, every degree in engine ambient temperature decreases manifold pressure. Cooler intake air means more power. > > > > > > In higher latitudes dry exhaust make more sense to me. Especially after seeing the price of a Oberdorfer or Sherwood raw water pump! > > > > > > Thank you for the great boat! > > > > > > -Makena > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > There should be no saltwater pump on a BS 36, as the skeg is the keel cooler, and most run dry exhuast. Those who dont initially, eventually do, as they become enlightened > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Maintenance on Swain 36 engine; > > > > > > > > > > I am changing the saltwater pump on my Universal 5432 (Kubota D850) from the original Sherwood (Old universal pump #298890 new Weterbeke part #301357) to an Oberdorfer N202M-15. > > > > > > > > > > On Monday purchasing Oberdorfer N202M-15 from http://www.marinepumpdirect.com . > > > > > > > > > > Am I doing this right? Anyone changed to Oberdorfer N202M-15 from the Sherwood? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 30232|30206|2013-05-17 16:33:08|x|Re: Universal 5432 (Kubota D850), Oberdorfer N202M-15|Brent, Thank you. I have always appreciated your knowledge. The boat has been operating great! Going sailing... ! Vty, Makena, Hawaii --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > From the transom,I run the 1 1/2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe foreward at about a 30 degree rise, to a point about 6 inches below the deck, then point it downward, to a point just below the cockpit, where I put whatever bends it needs, to connect with the engine. Where the pipe runs thru the transom, even with wet exhuast, you get a bit of rust were the heat affects the paint. For this reason, I now make the area within 2 or more inches from the pipe, stainless. > Outside, I turn the exhuast downward, to a point three inches below the waterline, then point it back and put a rubber flap on it. I drill a quarter inch anti siphon hole where the exhuast leaves the transom. With this arangement, you dont need a muffler . It just gurgles. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > As you know, my boat was built by you and Dan Henkel. Dan decided on the wet exhaust manifold during the finishing. Is there a drawing that would define how to change back to dry? > > > > Thank you for the great boat! > > > > BTW I replaced the Sherwood G908 with the Obendorfer N202M-15...it works great. The wet exhaust seems OK for now. I reinforced the riser, Dan mentioned that his design broke off ( and really shook his ears). It had no reinforcement, just the bolts on the engine. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I wrap my dry exhuast in fibreglass house insulation, then 3 inch wide muffler tape, then silicone the works with cheap silicone caulking. After days of motoring in the tropics, it's still room temperature to the touch > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > In the tropics I like the water cooled exhaust. It keeps inside cabin temps lower, which ultimately makes being below deck more comfortable. > > > > > > > > Also, every degree in engine ambient temperature decreases manifold pressure. Cooler intake air means more power. > > > > > > > > In higher latitudes dry exhaust make more sense to me. Especially after seeing the price of a Oberdorfer or Sherwood raw water pump! > > > > > > > > Thank you for the great boat! > > > > > > > > -Makena > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > There should be no saltwater pump on a BS 36, as the skeg is the keel cooler, and most run dry exhuast. Those who dont initially, eventually do, as they become enlightened > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Maintenance on Swain 36 engine; > > > > > > > > > > > > I am changing the saltwater pump on my Universal 5432 (Kubota D850) from the original Sherwood (Old universal pump #298890 new Weterbeke part #301357) to an Oberdorfer N202M-15. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday purchasing Oberdorfer N202M-15 from http://www.marinepumpdirect.com . > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I doing this right? Anyone changed to Oberdorfer N202M-15 from the Sherwood? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 30233|30206|2013-05-18 12:48:06|jason ball|Re: Universal 5432 (Kubota D850), Oberdorfer N202M-15|good info brent!! thanks. --- On Fri, 17/5/13, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Universal 5432 (Kubota D850), Oberdorfer N202M-15 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 17 May, 2013, 20:46   From the transom,I run the 1 1/2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe foreward at about a 30 degree rise, to a point about 6 inches below the deck, then point it downward, to a point just below the cockpit, where I put whatever bends it needs, to connect with the engine. Where the pipe runs thru the transom, even with wet exhuast, you get a bit of rust were the heat affects the paint. For this reason, I now make the area within 2 or more inches from the pipe, stainless. Outside, I turn the exhuast downward, to a point three inches below the waterline, then point it back and put a rubber flap on it. I drill a quarter inch anti siphon hole where the exhuast leaves the transom. With this arangement, you dont need a muffler . It just gurgles. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > As you know, my boat was built by you and Dan Henkel. Dan decided on the wet exhaust manifold during the finishing. Is there a drawing that would define how to change back to dry? > > Thank you for the great boat! > > BTW I replaced the Sherwood G908 with the Obendorfer N202M-15...it works great. The wet exhaust seems OK for now. I reinforced the riser, Dan mentioned that his design broke off ( and really shook his ears). It had no reinforcement, just the bolts on the engine. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I wrap my dry exhuast in fibreglass house insulation, then 3 inch wide muffler tape, then silicone the works with cheap silicone caulking. After days of motoring in the tropics, it's still room temperature to the touch > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > In the tropics I like the water cooled exhaust. It keeps inside cabin temps lower, which ultimately makes being below deck more comfortable. > > > > > > Also, every degree in engine ambient temperature decreases manifold pressure. Cooler intake air means more power. > > > > > > In higher latitudes dry exhaust make more sense to me. Especially after seeing the price of a Oberdorfer or Sherwood raw water pump! > > > > > > Thank you for the great boat! > > > > > > -Makena > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > There should be no saltwater pump on a BS 36, as the skeg is the keel cooler, and most run dry exhuast. Those who dont initially, eventually do, as they become enlightened > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Maintenance on Swain 36 engine; > > > > > > > > > > I am changing the saltwater pump on my Universal 5432 (Kubota D850) from the original Sherwood (Old universal pump #298890 new Weterbeke part #301357) to an Oberdorfer N202M-15. > > > > > > > > > > On Monday purchasing Oberdorfer N202M-15 from http://www.marinepumpdirect.com . > > > > > > > > > > Am I doing this right? Anyone changed to Oberdorfer N202M-15 from the Sherwood? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30234|30234|2013-05-18 23:37:29|wild_explorer|Single keel from i-beam|I was thinking about possibility of making single keel from I-beam with W-section. May be S-section will work as well. It would be heavier than how Brent makes the keel, but for single keel for "drop-hull-on-the-keel" it does not really matter - it is need to add weight to the keel anyway. My idea is to take I-beam with depth (how high the I is) slightly less than the span of the keel. With width (upper and lower flanges of the I) slightly more than horizontal keel's cross section on that level and cut flanges of I-beam to the pattern of the keel. Then extend upper flange with vertical/transverse beams/supports for the hull. Cut openings in I-beam for tanks/lead. Plate sides of the keel as standard one. I-beam cut to keel's pattern and transverse hull's supports/separators should give enough points for precise plating to fit the hull.| 30235|30234|2013-05-22 18:27:59|brentswain38|Re: Single keel from i-beam|Sounds like a whole lot of extra work for zero benefit. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was thinking about possibility of making single keel from I-beam with W-section. May be S-section will work as well. It would be heavier than how Brent makes the keel, but for single keel for "drop-hull-on-the-keel" it does not really matter - it is need to add weight to the keel anyway. > > My idea is to take I-beam with depth (how high the I is) slightly less than the span of the keel. With width (upper and lower flanges of the I) slightly more than horizontal keel's cross section on that level and cut flanges of I-beam to the pattern of the keel. Then extend upper flange with vertical/transverse beams/supports for the hull. Cut openings in I-beam for tanks/lead. Plate sides of the keel as standard one. > > I-beam cut to keel's pattern and transverse hull's supports/separators should give enough points for precise plating to fit the hull. > | 30236|30234|2013-05-23 04:48:29|mauro gonzaga|Re: Single keel from i-beam|If I understand you want to convert from double to single keel. Uhm. You should seek assistance of the  designer......You cannot stick a I beam without verification of lateral resistance area and resistance to forwand motion and weight distribution. Unless you feel confident with your own design. But somebody has to design on the paper and make few calculations. Mauro ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Single keel from i-beam   Sounds like a whole lot of extra work for zero benefit. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I was thinking about possibility of making single keel from I-beam with W-section. May be S-section will work as well. It would be heavier than how Brent makes the keel, but for single keel for "drop-hull-on-the-keel" it does not really matter - it is need to add weight to the keel anyway. > > My idea is to take I-beam with depth (how high the I is) slightly less than the span of the keel. With width (upper and lower flanges of the I) slightly more than horizontal keel's cross section on that level and cut flanges of I-beam to the pattern of the keel. Then extend upper flange with vertical/transverse beams/supports for the hull. Cut openings in I-beam for tanks/lead. Plate sides of the keel as standard one. > > I-beam cut to keel's pattern and transverse hull's supports/separators should give enough points for precise plating to fit the hull. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30237|30173|2013-05-24 12:51:21|wild_explorer|Re: Side deck installation|Inner edge of side-deck is really asking for flat-bar (FB) following the edge (about 1-2" from the edge). It really helps to have straight inner edge of the deck, helps for deck's self-alignment and cabin side installation. Seems that Brent's plans have some notation about FB on the inside of deck's inner edge, but I do not see FB there on Alex's video or looking at other sources (Carl's picture CD, etc). If I understood correctly, Kim was using FB tacked to the outside of the deck for deck's edge cutting and cabin side installation (FB was removed later?) Looks like: -It would be much easier to tack this FB on the inside before deck installation (on a ground). - FB should be full length of side-deck's section and follow inner edge of the side-deck (with about 1/2" space to the end of deck's transverse beams? Or connected to the beams later??).| 30238|30238|2013-05-24 13:47:27|wild_explorer|Cabin/PH installation|I was looking how installation of the cabin and cabin's top is done and have some questions. After cabin sides are tacked to the deck and side's angle (tumble-home of the sides) is set and secured with temporary braces, then cabin front is tacked and temporary cabin top beam (from plate) is made and tacked. After it, cabin top from single sheet is installed, shaped and tacked in. Other stiffeners tacked to cabin top later. Well... - Why does it need to tack/install cabin top's stiffeners later (weld it to curved plate)? Bending flat bar (FB) to match cabin top (after cabin top installation) is not fun at all. - What is the problem to make cabin's Web to establish tumble-home, proper distance between cabin sides and cabin top's supports before cabin's top installation? - I see that some people tacking FB from some distance from top-edge of cabin sides. Looks like it is good idea (to keep curve of the cabin's side fair). - I see as well that more transverse and longitudinal beams are introduced to cabin top. - for some reason, mast support arc (from 1/2" plate) is welded last. Which is really strange. Why not to weld it before cabin top installation? Looks like all this "AFTER", may be avoided simply by making the web attached to the deck for cabin sides and cabin top, and putting cabin's sides and top on it. Seems like it would be easier.... At least it gives some references for cabin installation. P.S. I have multiple sheets for cabin top (not single). So, I need to have more cabin top beams anyway. The question from what to make it? Plate? FB? Or may be there is some profile which allows to reduce weight of the web (but keep it strong). I like how Doug makes beams from angle, but it requires bending equipment. P.S.S. Weight of 3/8"x1" FB is 1.276 Lbs/ft.| 30239|30234|2013-05-24 13:59:28|wild_explorer|Re: Single keel from i-beam|Actually I want to have single long low aspect keel (instead of fin keel). It has several benefits for me. I know all hydrostatics of my hull, and I can stick any keel to it. The problem is how the keel will affect underwater profile of the hull. I tried many variations (fin, twin, long). I like long keel from n0011sc profile best (for my hull). I could get away without keel at all, but it is a sailboat ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > If I understand you want to convert from double to single keel. Uhm. You should seek assistance of the  designer......You cannot stick a I beam without verification of lateral resistance area and resistance to forwand motion and weight distribution. Unless you feel confident with your own design. But somebody has to design on the paper and make few calculations. > Mauro | 30240|30234|2013-05-24 15:03:32|wild_explorer|Re: Single keel from i-beam|It all depends from what point to look at it... Lately, I am calculating the weight of the parts (to be able to handle it by myself). My long keel is about 12ft tip, 16 ft root. - If I make it as "pull-through" version, it will weight about 0.5t (1100 Lb), plus separators. It might be hard to find 12ft scrap plate (usually scrap plates < 10ft). It is need to shape the keel later by fitting it to the cut-out of the hull. I am not sure, if I can handle and properly position such long and heavy keel. More likely, lifting of the hull for keel's installation will require lifting equipment anyway - the ground on building site is uneven and the hull tends to slide down-slope on supports when lifted. - making keel from two 50-60 Lbs/ft I-beams (scrap metal), allows me to have 0.6-0.7" keel's bottom (flanges as a bottom). Gives very stable and rigid structure to bend 1/4" plate around it. Final weight of such keel is about 1700-2000 Lbs. Built-in separate compartment for lead (between I-beams). Easy to weld transverse baffles to top flanges for hull support (before welding keel to the hull). Such keel will act as "base/support" when hull is dropped on the keel. If keel is leveled before putting hull on it, hull will be leveled as well (at least in longitudinal direction, easy to level hull in transverse direction later if needed). Yep, it is more work to make keel from I-beam. I do not see much benefits to do it this way for fin or twin keels, but for a long low aspect single keel it looks reasonable. I am trying to use (design) pipe for leading edge of the keel, but I am running into a problem. Pipe works only if tip and root of the keel is the same length. Leading edge radius is a function of keel's length. With different tip and root length, the radius will be different. Means, it is hard to use pipe of the same diameter for leading edge of the keel. If it does not work, I may simply weld heavy flat bars to the flanges of I-beams to make a profile for leading edge of the keel and bend 1/4" plate around it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Sounds like a whole lot of extra work for zero benefit. | 30241|30173|2013-05-27 16:57:51|brentswain38|Re: Side deck installation|There is absolutely no need for a flat bar on the inside edge of the deck. The cabinside is your flatbar. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Inner edge of side-deck is really asking for flat-bar (FB) following the edge (about 1-2" from the edge). It really helps to have straight inner edge of the deck, helps for deck's self-alignment and cabin side installation. Seems that Brent's plans have some notation about FB on the inside of deck's inner edge, but I do not see FB there on Alex's video or looking at other sources (Carl's picture CD, etc). If I understood correctly, Kim was using FB tacked to the outside of the deck for deck's edge cutting and cabin side installation (FB was removed later?) > > Looks like: > -It would be much easier to tack this FB on the inside before deck installation (on a ground). > - FB should be full length of side-deck's section and follow inner edge of the side-deck (with about 1/2" space to the end of deck's transverse beams? Or connected to the beams later??). > | 30242|30238|2013-05-27 17:13:59|brentswain38|Re: Cabin/PH installation|The cabin top beams can be over bent and the bend forced out when installing them. I just tack one end on, then force the beam in from the other end with a piece of 4x4 off the hull. Exact spacing is not critical as they are just for overall stiffness. They dont have to be straight as they are buried in foam and never seen again. The cabinsides stiffen the inside deck edges, acting as longitudinal girders, which are then supported by pipes down to the chines. This makes it strong enough to support the mast arch. The arch does give us the cabinsides tumble home; at that point. Yes, we do put in the mast support arch before putting the cabin top on. With multiple sheets for the cabin top, it is a good idea to centre beams directly under the seams, to reduce their longitudinal shrinkage. The flat bar just below the cabin top is to keep the sides fair until the top is tacked down. They we remove them. wrote: > > I was looking how installation of the cabin and cabin's top is done and have some questions. > > After cabin sides are tacked to the deck and side's angle (tumble-home of the sides) is set and secured with temporary braces, then cabin front is tacked and temporary cabin top beam (from plate) is made and tacked. After it, cabin top from single sheet is installed, shaped and tacked in. Other stiffeners tacked to cabin top later. > > Well... > > - Why does it need to tack/install cabin top's stiffeners later (weld it to curved plate)? Bending flat bar (FB) to match cabin top (after cabin top installation) is not fun at all. > - What is the problem to make cabin's Web to establish tumble-home, proper distance between cabin sides and cabin top's supports before cabin's top installation? > - I see that some people tacking FB from some distance from top-edge of cabin sides. Looks like it is good idea (to keep curve of the cabin's side fair). > - I see as well that more transverse and longitudinal beams are introduced to cabin top. > - for some reason, mast support arc (from 1/2" plate) is welded last. Which is really strange. Why not to weld it before cabin top installation? > > Looks like all this "AFTER", may be avoided simply by making the web attached to the deck for cabin sides and cabin top, and putting cabin's sides and top on it. Seems like it would be easier.... At least it gives some references for cabin installation. > > P.S. I have multiple sheets for cabin top (not single). So, I need to have more cabin top beams anyway. The question from what to make it? Plate? FB? Or may be there is some profile which allows to reduce weight of the web (but keep it strong). I like how Doug makes beams from angle, but it requires bending equipment. > > P.S.S. Weight of 3/8"x1" FB is 1.276 Lbs/ft. > | 30243|30234|2013-05-27 17:21:37|brentswain38|Re: Single keel from i-beam|I have found that pipe less than half inch thick on the leading edges of a keel dent badly when they hit a rock, even with molten lead poured in behind it.With half inch wall thickness, you can hit a rock at hull speed, with zero dammage. Worrying about different radiuses for top and bottom is like picking fly shit out of pepper. It doeesn't matter much. Dont sweat the petty things and dont pet the sweaty things. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > It all depends from what point to look at it... > > Lately, I am calculating the weight of the parts (to be able to handle it by myself). My long keel is about 12ft tip, 16 ft root. > > - If I make it as "pull-through" version, it will weight about 0.5t (1100 Lb), plus separators. It might be hard to find 12ft scrap plate (usually scrap plates < 10ft). It is need to shape the keel later by fitting it to the cut-out of the hull. I am not sure, if I can handle and properly position such long and heavy keel. More likely, lifting of the hull for keel's installation will require lifting equipment anyway - the ground on building site is uneven and the hull tends to slide down-slope on supports when lifted. > > - making keel from two 50-60 Lbs/ft I-beams (scrap metal), allows me to have 0.6-0.7" keel's bottom (flanges as a bottom). Gives very stable and rigid structure to bend 1/4" plate around it. Final weight of such keel is about 1700-2000 Lbs. Built-in separate compartment for lead (between I-beams). Easy to weld transverse baffles to top flanges for hull support (before welding keel to the hull). Such keel will act as "base/support" when hull is dropped on the keel. If keel is leveled before putting hull on it, hull will be leveled as well (at least in longitudinal direction, easy to level hull in transverse direction later if needed). > > Yep, it is more work to make keel from I-beam. I do not see much benefits to do it this way for fin or twin keels, but for a long low aspect single keel it looks reasonable. > > I am trying to use (design) pipe for leading edge of the keel, but I am running into a problem. Pipe works only if tip and root of the keel is the same length. Leading edge radius is a function of keel's length. With different tip and root length, the radius will be different. Means, it is hard to use pipe of the same diameter for leading edge of the keel. If it does not work, I may simply weld heavy flat bars to the flanges of I-beams to make a profile for leading edge of the keel and bend 1/4" plate around it. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Sounds like a whole lot of extra work for zero benefit. > | 30244|30173|2013-05-27 22:21:02|wild_explorer|Re: Side deck installation|I agree, after cabin side installation (with temporary supports to the deck to keep tumblehome or with cabin top on) it will. However, I tried to clamp 1/4x1 flatbar to the inside edge of the deck (to keep it fair) and it does not work well. Clamping 3/8x1 FB on hard side works. At least, I plan to tack FB on the outside of the deck following cabin installation line. It will allow me to remove FB after cabin installation and gives better reference for cabin side installation. I will check distance from bulwark to inner edge of the deck as well before deck sides' installation. I believe, that FB will roughly align deck's edge in relation to bulwark. It might be more work, but I do not want to risk. I am doing it first time only... Better to be safe than sorry ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > There is absolutely no need for a flat bar on the inside edge of the deck. The cabinside is your flatbar. > | 30245|30173|2013-05-28 01:10:13|Kim|Re: Side deck installation|Yes, Wild, the flat bar that I had tacked to the inside upper edge of the side decks ( http://smu.gs/1712Yd2 ) was very temporary. It was only there to stop the bottom edge of the large sheets, that would become the cabin sides, from sliding all over the deck until they were welded in place. Once the bottom of the cabin sides were tacked to the deck, the flat bar was removed. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Inner edge of side-deck is really asking for flat-bar (FB) following the edge (about 1-2" from the edge). It really helps to have straight inner edge of the deck, helps for deck's self-alignment and cabin side installation. Seems that Brent's plans have some notation about FB on the inside of deck's inner edge, but I do not see FB there on Alex's video or looking at other sources (Carl's picture CD, etc). If I understood correctly, Kim was using FB tacked to the outside of the deck for deck's edge cutting and cabin side installation (FB was removed later?) > > Looks like: > -It would be much easier to tack this FB on the inside before deck installation (on a ground). > - FB should be full length of side-deck's section and follow inner edge of the side-deck (with about 1/2" space to the end of deck's transverse beams? Or connected to the beams later??). | 30246|30234|2013-05-28 01:16:57|Kim|Re: Single keel from i-beam|If my memory serves me correctly, when Weston Farmer designed his very popular 32' Tahitiana ketch (a steel version of John Hanna's earlier and even more popular Tahiti timber ketch), one of the keel options for the Tahitiana was pretty well what you are describing here, using I-beams. I recall that another option was to use a 1' x 1' length of solid steel square bar! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > It all depends from what point to look at it... > > Lately, I am calculating the weight of the parts (to be able to handle it by myself). My long keel is about 12ft tip, 16 ft root. > > - If I make it as "pull-through" version, it will weight about 0.5t (1100 Lb), plus separators. It might be hard to find 12ft scrap plate (usually scrap plates < 10ft). It is need to shape the keel later by fitting it to the cut-out of the hull. I am not sure, if I can handle and properly position such long and heavy keel. More likely, lifting of the hull for keel's installation will require lifting equipment anyway - the ground on building site is uneven and the hull tends to slide down-slope on supports when lifted. > > - making keel from two 50-60 Lbs/ft I-beams (scrap metal), allows me to have 0.6-0.7" keel's bottom (flanges as a bottom). Gives very stable and rigid structure to bend 1/4" plate around it. Final weight of such keel is about 1700-2000 Lbs. Built-in separate compartment for lead (between I-beams). Easy to weld transverse baffles to top flanges for hull support (before welding keel to the hull). Such keel will act as "base/support" when hull is dropped on the keel. If keel is leveled before putting hull on it, hull will be leveled as well (at least in longitudinal direction, easy to level hull in transverse direction later if needed). > > Yep, it is more work to make keel from I-beam. I do not see much benefits to do it this way for fin or twin keels, but for a long low aspect single keel it looks reasonable. > > I am trying to use (design) pipe for leading edge of the keel, but I am running into a problem. Pipe works only if tip and root of the keel is the same length. Leading edge radius is a function of keel's length. With different tip and root length, the radius will be different. Means, it is hard to use pipe of the same diameter for leading edge of the keel. If it does not work, I may simply weld heavy flat bars to the flanges of I-beams to make a profile for leading edge of the keel and bend 1/4" plate around it. | 30247|30173|2013-05-28 15:35:17|brentswain38|Re: Side deck installation|The cabin side does exactly the same thing and the fairness is as fair as the bottom of your cabin sides.It couldnt possibly be otherwise. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I agree, after cabin side installation (with temporary supports to the deck to keep tumblehome or with cabin top on) it will. However, I tried to clamp 1/4x1 flatbar to the inside edge of the deck (to keep it fair) and it does not work well. Clamping 3/8x1 FB on hard side works. At least, I plan to tack FB on the outside of the deck following cabin installation line. It will allow me to remove FB after cabin installation and gives better reference for cabin side installation. > > I will check distance from bulwark to inner edge of the deck as well before deck sides' installation. I believe, that FB will roughly align deck's edge in relation to bulwark. > > It might be more work, but I do not want to risk. I am doing it first time only... Better to be safe than sorry ;) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > There is absolutely no need for a flat bar on the inside edge of the deck. The cabinside is your flatbar. > > > | 30248|30234|2013-05-28 20:13:47|Paul Thompson|Re: Single keel from i-beam|Kim, it was 6" x 12'. That's what I used. Later I cut it off and deepened the keel by another 12" to improve windward performance. I just welded 8mm plate to the sides of the origanal beam and then welded it all back again. Paul Thompson. On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Kim wrote: > > If my memory serves me correctly, when Weston Farmer designed his very > popular 32' Tahitiana ketch (a steel version of John Hanna's earlier and > even more popular Tahiti timber ketch), one of the keel options for the > Tahitiana was pretty well what you are describing here, using I-beams. I > recall that another option was to use a 1' x 1' length of solid steel > square bar! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" > wrote: > > > > It all depends from what point to look at it... > > > > Lately, I am calculating the weight of the parts (to be able to handle > it by myself). My long keel is about 12ft tip, 16 ft root. > > > > - If I make it as "pull-through" version, it will weight about 0.5t > (1100 Lb), plus separators. It might be hard to find 12ft scrap plate > (usually scrap plates < 10ft). It is need to shape the keel later by > fitting it to the cut-out of the hull. I am not sure, if I can handle and > properly position such long and heavy keel. More likely, lifting of the > hull for keel's installation will require lifting equipment anyway - the > ground on building site is uneven and the hull tends to slide down-slope on > supports when lifted. > > > > - making keel from two 50-60 Lbs/ft I-beams (scrap metal), allows me to > have 0.6-0.7" keel's bottom (flanges as a bottom). Gives very stable and > rigid structure to bend 1/4" plate around it. Final weight of such keel is > about 1700-2000 Lbs. Built-in separate compartment for lead (between > I-beams). Easy to weld transverse baffles to top flanges for hull support > (before welding keel to the hull). Such keel will act as "base/support" > when hull is dropped on the keel. If keel is leveled before putting hull on > it, hull will be leveled as well (at least in longitudinal direction, easy > to level hull in transverse direction later if needed). > > > > Yep, it is more work to make keel from I-beam. I do not see much > benefits to do it this way for fin or twin keels, but for a long low aspect > single keel it looks reasonable. > > > > I am trying to use (design) pipe for leading edge of the keel, but I am > running into a problem. Pipe works only if tip and root of the keel is the > same length. Leading edge radius is a function of keel's length. With > different tip and root length, the radius will be different. Means, it is > hard to use pipe of the same diameter for leading edge of the keel. If it > does not work, I may simply weld heavy flat bars to the flanges of I-beams > to make a profile for leading edge of the keel and bend 1/4" plate around > it. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30249|30173|2013-05-28 20:50:14|wild_explorer|Re: Side deck installation|That was a good idea, Kim! I was thinking how to handle cabin side installation by one man (lifting/positioning, keeping cabin side's sheet on the line and with proper tumblehome). Then I recalled what you did. Temporary FB solves most of the problems for "one-man-crew". --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Yes, Wild, the flat bar that I had tacked to the inside upper edge of the side decks ( http://smu.gs/1712Yd2 ) was very temporary. It was only there to stop the bottom edge of the large sheets, that would become the cabin sides, from sliding all over the deck until they were welded in place. Once the bottom of the cabin sides were tacked to the deck, the flat bar was removed. > > Cheers ... | 30250|30250|2013-05-29 02:12:31|steve|Silas Crosby , a BS 36 twin-keeler, continues north|In 2 days we'll cast off from the dock in Honolulu, bound a little west of due north, 1900 miles to the Aleutians. I guess I'll have to re-install the heater chimney after a week or two. The boat and skipper are rested up after the 7,000 mile journey from Chile to Hawaii. Ready for more sailing after a month of rest. New deck non-skid paint, a new spinnaker halyard, and a repaired jib UV protector strip were the biggest jobs here. Steve| 30251|30250|2013-05-29 18:14:33|Paul Wilson|Re: Silas Crosby , a BS 36 twin-keeler, continues north|Thanks for the update Steve and have a great sail. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 29/05/2013 6:12 p.m., steve wrote: > > In 2 days we'll cast off from the dock in Honolulu, bound a little > west of due north, 1900 miles to the Aleutians. > > I guess I'll have to re-install the heater chimney after a week or two. > > The boat and skipper are rested up after the 7,000 mile journey from > Chile to Hawaii. Ready for more sailing after a month of rest. > > New deck non-skid paint, a new spinnaker halyard, and a repaired jib > UV protector strip were the biggest jobs here. > Steve > > | 30252|30234|2013-05-29 21:43:27|Kim|Re: Single keel from i-beam|Paul - did you once have a Tahitiana? Wow! There used to be a few of them around here once; but I haven't seen any for ages now. About 30 years ago I spent a couple of days on one. It had sailed down here from Denmark. That was when I saw its construction drawings. A truly lovely-looking boat; but couldn't sail too well to windward. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Kim, it was 6" x 12'. That's what I used. Later I cut it off and deepened > the keel by another 12" to improve windward performance. I just welded 8mm > plate to the sides of the origanal beam and then welded it all back again. > > Paul Thompson. > > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Kim wrote: > > > > > If my memory serves me correctly, when Weston Farmer designed his very > > popular 32' Tahitiana ketch (a steel version of John Hanna's earlier and > > even more popular Tahiti timber ketch), one of the keel options for the > > Tahitiana was pretty well what you are describing here, using I-beams. I > > recall that another option was to use a 1' x 1' length of solid steel > > square bar! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. | 30253|30234|2013-05-30 03:03:51|Paul Thompson|Re: Single keel from i-beam|Hi Kim, I still do, though it's a very modified one that I have incorporated many of Brent's ideas into. Yes, in the original form they are not sparkling performers to the windward but they can be improved. There are some photos of her in the photo's section. Follow this link http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1737176078/pic/1634787583/view Paul Thompson. On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 1:43 PM, Kim wrote: > > Paul - did you once have a Tahitiana? Wow! There used to be a few of them > around here once; but I haven't seen any for ages now. About 30 years ago I > spent a couple of days on one. It had sailed down here from Denmark. That > was when I saw its construction drawings. A truly lovely-looking boat; but > couldn't sail too well to windward. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > Kim, it was 6" x 12'. That's what I used. Later I cut it off and deepened > > the keel by another 12" to improve windward performance. I just welded > 8mm > > plate to the sides of the origanal beam and then welded it all back > again. > > > > Paul Thompson. > > > > > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Kim wrote: > > > > > > > > If my memory serves me correctly, when Weston Farmer designed his very > > > popular 32' Tahitiana ketch (a steel version of John Hanna's earlier > and > > > even more popular Tahiti timber ketch), one of the keel options for the > > > Tahitiana was pretty well what you are describing here, using I-beams. > I > > > recall that another option was to use a 1' x 1' length of solid steel > > > square bar! > > > > > > Cheers ... > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30254|30234|2013-05-30 07:57:50|mauro gonzaga|Re: Single keel from i-beam|You may see Tahiti Rover. Said to sail windward better. Same old style traditional looking of the Tahiti Ketch, but easy to build of steel. Mauro ________________________________ From: Kim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Single keel from i-beam   Paul - did you once have a Tahitiana? Wow! There used to be a few of them around here once; but I haven't seen any for ages now. About 30 years ago I spent a couple of days on one. It had sailed down here from Denmark. That was when I saw its construction drawings. A truly lovely-looking boat; but couldn't sail too well to windward. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Kim, it was 6" x 12'. That's what I used. Later I cut it off and deepened > the keel by another 12" to improve windward performance. I just welded 8mm > plate to the sides of the origanal beam and then welded it all back again. > > Paul Thompson. > > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Kim wrote: > > > > > If my memory serves me correctly, when Weston Farmer designed his very > > popular 32' Tahitiana ketch (a steel version of John Hanna's earlier and > > even more popular Tahiti timber ketch), one of the keel options for the > > Tahitiana was pretty well what you are describing here, using I-beams. I > > recall that another option was to use a 1' x 1' length of solid steel > > square bar! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30255|30173|2013-05-30 17:22:54|brentswain38|Re: Side deck installation|Skill saw cut or plasma cut cabin sides are much easier to deal with than torch cut. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > That was a good idea, Kim! I was thinking how to handle cabin side installation by one man (lifting/positioning, keeping cabin side's sheet on the line and with proper tumblehome). Then I recalled what you did. Temporary FB solves most of the problems for "one-man-crew". > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > > > Yes, Wild, the flat bar that I had tacked to the inside upper edge of the side decks ( http://smu.gs/1712Yd2 ) was very temporary. It was only there to stop the bottom edge of the large sheets, that would become the cabin sides, from sliding all over the deck until they were welded in place. Once the bottom of the cabin sides were tacked to the deck, the flat bar was removed. > > > > Cheers ... > | 30256|30234|2013-05-30 17:25:27|brentswain38|Re: Single keel from i-beam|They are horrendously complex and over framed compared to origami, but they could be built using origami methods. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > You may see Tahiti Rover. Said to sail windward better. Same old style traditional looking of the Tahiti Ketch, but easy to build of steel. > Mauro > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Kim > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:43 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Single keel from i-beam > > > >   > > Paul - did you once have a Tahitiana? Wow! There used to be a few of them around here once; but I haven't seen any for ages now. About 30 years ago I spent a couple of days on one. It had sailed down here from Denmark. That was when I saw its construction drawings. A truly lovely-looking boat; but couldn't sail too well to windward. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > Kim, it was 6" x 12'. That's what I used. Later I cut it off and deepened > > the keel by another 12" to improve windward performance. I just welded 8mm > > plate to the sides of the origanal beam and then welded it all back again. > > > > Paul Thompson. > > > > > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Kim wrote: > > > > > > > > If my memory serves me correctly, when Weston Farmer designed his very > > > popular 32' Tahitiana ketch (a steel version of John Hanna's earlier and > > > even more popular Tahiti timber ketch), one of the keel options for the > > > Tahitiana was pretty well what you are describing here, using I-beams. I > > > recall that another option was to use a 1' x 1' length of solid steel > > > square bar! > > > > > > Cheers ... > > > > > > Kim. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30257|30173|2013-05-30 21:54:32|wild_explorer|Re: Side deck installation|Is it because clean-cut of cabin side's edge gives more precise reference for the deck to follow? Or another reason? It still need to have something to prevent cabin side from sliding on a deck... Just tacking cabin side, will require to follow the line anyway. For me it was easier to tack FB guide to the deck. Resting pattern on the deck (it will be stopped by FB), giving cabin side proper tumblehome and clamping cabin side to the deck with pipe-clamps, it should push cabin side's edge against FB and self-align it. At this time, I can say, that it is easier to work with plasma/laser cut deck. I just used machinist's caliper to scribe a line for cabin side installation and tacked FB following it. It is possible to scribe a line the same way for deck installation on hull's pattern (before tacking bulwark pipe). Brent's methods of welding bulwark pipe to hull's pattern, makes possible errors "hull/bulwark/deck" negligible. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Skill saw cut or plasma cut cabin sides are much easier to deal with than torch cut. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > That was a good idea, Kim! I was thinking how to handle cabin side installation by one man (lifting/positioning, keeping cabin side's sheet on the line and with proper tumblehome). Then I recalled what you did. Temporary FB solves most of the problems for "one-man-crew". | 30258|30173|2013-05-31 17:10:13|brentswain38|Re: Side deck installation|It's because a saw cut has zero shrinkage and a plasma far less than a torch, reducing the amount of oil canning you have to fight with while getting the cabinside clamped down on the side deck. Getting a non oil canned cabinside onto the line is not all that diffucult, with or without the flatbar. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Is it because clean-cut of cabin side's edge gives more precise reference for the deck to follow? Or another reason? It still need to have something to prevent cabin side from sliding on a deck... > > Just tacking cabin side, will require to follow the line anyway. For me it was easier to tack FB guide to the deck. Resting pattern on the deck (it will be stopped by FB), giving cabin side proper tumblehome and clamping cabin side to the deck with pipe-clamps, it should push cabin side's edge against FB and self-align it. > > At this time, I can say, that it is easier to work with plasma/laser cut deck. I just used machinist's caliper to scribe a line for cabin side installation and tacked FB following it. > > It is possible to scribe a line the same way for deck installation on hull's pattern (before tacking bulwark pipe). Brent's methods of welding bulwark pipe to hull's pattern, makes possible errors "hull/bulwark/deck" negligible. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Skill saw cut or plasma cut cabin sides are much easier to deal with than torch cut. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > That was a good idea, Kim! I was thinking how to handle cabin side installation by one man (lifting/positioning, keeping cabin side's sheet on the line and with proper tumblehome). Then I recalled what you did. Temporary FB solves most of the problems for "one-man-crew". > | 30259|30259|2013-05-31 17:19:54|brentswain38|Old boat salvage|With the collapse of the stock boat market, there are huge numbers of rotted out hulks, sometimes free for the taking, with prefectly good rigs , winches , sails, anchors etc, etc on board.One can save a huge amount of time and money by keeping an eye out for such boats. Masts , sheet winches, sails which have rarely seen the sun , etc dont deteriorate. Such boats can be hard for an owner to get rid of, and a liability for the owner, as people usually only look at the rotten moldy parts, and never consider the value of the gear which comes with them. Look past the rot and mold, for that which is still as functional as new. It can represent savings of tens of thousands of dollars, and a huge amount of time looking for all that gear. It Makes no sense for a budget conscious builder to buy new gear when there is so much of it sinking on rotten boats, which may be free for the taking.| 30260|30259|2013-05-31 23:47:32|wild_explorer|Re: Old boat salvage|In many places it is need to pay for disposal of the boat (especially fiberglass ones) after stripping it off. It is need to transport old boat to disposal site too... But... It might be economical on case-to-case basis. Best case to find metal boat - at least you can scrap it. Thanks for a reminder! I need to check local ADs. P.S. Many states have a law to deal with abandoned boats as well. Pretty costly if you got caught. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With the collapse of the stock boat market, there are huge numbers of rotted out hulks, sometimes free for the taking, with prefectly good rigs , winches , sails, anchors etc, etc on board.One can save a huge amount of time and money by keeping an eye out for such boats. Masts , sheet winches, sails which have rarely seen the sun , etc dont deteriorate. | 30261|30259|2013-06-01 08:25:20|scott|Re: Old boat salvage|I have disassembled a fiberglass boat before with a sawzaw.. :) I could walk along the hull and cut it like a hot knife through butter with a good blade. Just cut the hull up into pieces of a size to fit in a pickup and haul it to the dump. A thirty foot boat could be cut up in a day easy.I would imagine a circular saw would work well also. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > In many places it is need to pay for disposal of the boat (especially fiberglass ones) after stripping it off. It is need to transport old boat to disposal site too... But... It might be economical on case-to-case basis. Best case to find metal boat - at least you can scrap it. > > Thanks for a reminder! I need to check local ADs. > > P.S. Many states have a law to deal with abandoned boats as well. Pretty costly if you got caught. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > With the collapse of the stock boat market, there are huge numbers of rotted out hulks, sometimes free for the taking, with prefectly good rigs , winches , sails, anchors etc, etc on board.One can save a huge amount of time and money by keeping an eye out for such boats. Masts , sheet winches, sails which have rarely seen the sun , etc dont deteriorate. > | 30262|30262|2013-06-01 20:58:40|MichaelF|bowrider walkthrough window for dodger frame|Has anyone used a walk through windshield for a dodger? I live in the Midwest and there are ski boats available cheap everywhere. I was thinking the windshield and frame would allow me to munt wipers for added visibility when raining and still be able to open the center section for a breeze when the weather is nice. I would also be able to attach my dodger canvas along the top of the windshield. Any thoughts on doing this? Pros and Cons? Thanks| 30263|30263|2013-06-01 23:29:32|ragnarpar|Mig wire and gas|Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment just setting there. Thanks, Par| 30264|30263|2013-06-02 02:36:25|Aaron|Re: Mig wire and gas|Par You will want to use the 70-6 and go for .045 wire with 75/25. >045 wire uses more heat and gives better fusion.   Aaron ________________________________ From: ragnarpar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2013 7:29 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Mig wire and gas   Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment just setting there. Thanks, Par [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30265|30263|2013-06-02 08:33:14|James Pronk|Re: Mig wire and gas|Hello Par The ER70S6 would be good or a ER70S2. The 75/25 gas mix is good. I would run some test pieces on 1/8" and 3/16" material so you get your voltage and wire speed right. Make sure you are getting enough penetration. The heat settings for a good butt weld will not be hot enough for a good lap or tee joint. James  --- On Sat, 6/1/13, ragnarpar wrote: From: ragnarpar Subject: [origamiboats] Mig wire and gas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, June 1, 2013, 11:29 PM   Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment just setting there. Thanks, Par [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30266|30263|2013-06-02 11:21:53|ragnarpar|Re: Mig wire and gas|Ok,thanks for the heads up. I'll get a small ie 5-10 lb roll of the .035 for 1/8-1/8 and a bigger 25lb roll of .045 for anything touching the 3/16. I suspected 75/25, thanks for the confirmation. I did some mig a few years back, had several mixes, 75/25 gave the best penetration . Looked too good and seemed too easy to be true. Ahh, just another tool, propper place and time, and frame of mind. Thanks again, Par --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? > Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? > And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? > > Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. > > So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment just setting there. > > Thanks, > > Par > | 30267|30263|2013-06-02 13:53:39|Aaron|Re: Mig wire and gas|Make sure to clean the tacks. Grind starts and stops as the slag will pop hole in the mig weld. Straight Co2 is very prone to porosity. The pin holes will be found with diesel or air testing. ________________________________ From: ragnarpar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:21 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mig wire and gas   Ok,thanks for the heads up. I'll get a small ie 5-10 lb roll of the .035 for 1/8-1/8 and a bigger 25lb roll of .045 for anything touching the 3/16. I suspected 75/25, thanks for the confirmation. I did some mig a few years back, had several mixes, 75/25 gave the best penetration . Looked too good and seemed too easy to be true. Ahh, just another tool, propper place and time, and frame of mind. Thanks again, Par --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? > Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? > And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? > > Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. > > So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment just setting there. > > Thanks, > > Par > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30268|30263|2013-06-03 07:57:13|Mike|Re: Mig wire and gas|You may want to build a small metal box and pressure test it. It maybe 1'x1'x1'. It may change your mind about trying to weld up your boat with mig. Making something that doesn't leak with mig can be done but its not as easy as just running a bead. I'd hate for you to get most of your welding done and then be chasing leaks everywhere. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 2, 2013, at 12:53 PM, Aaron wrote: > Make sure to clean the tacks. Grind starts and stops as the slag will pop hole in the mig weld. > Straight Co2 is very prone to porosity. The pin holes will be found with diesel or air testing. > > > ________________________________ > From: ragnarpar > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:21 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mig wire and gas > > > > > Ok,thanks for the heads up. > I'll get a small ie 5-10 lb roll of the .035 for 1/8-1/8 and a bigger 25lb roll of .045 for anything touching the 3/16. > I suspected 75/25, thanks for the confirmation. I did some mig a few years back, had several mixes, 75/25 gave the best penetration . Looked too good and seemed too easy to be true. Ahh, just another tool, propper place and time, and frame of mind. > > Thanks again, > > Par > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? > > Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? > > And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? > > > > Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. > > > > So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment just setting there. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Par > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30269|30259|2013-06-03 15:05:53|brentswain38|Re: Old boat salvage|A friend was given an old fishboat for super cheap. He took the good Saab diesel out of her , with shaft and variable pitch prop, hydraulic steering and a spot light, then burnt the boat on a remote beach. A scrubbed out hull sinking in several thousand feet of water is not likely to ever be seen again, and makes a great hiding spot- habitat, for cod ( which pisses off the seals, no doubt). Environmental laws are based on the foolish assumption that it is more environmentaly sound to ignore goods that are perfectly useable, and remanufacture them from scratch. Now that is as dense as even a bureacracy can get!(Forced consumerism anyone) Thank god I live in a freer country that some. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > In many places it is need to pay for disposal of the boat (especially fiberglass ones) after stripping it off. It is need to transport old boat to disposal site too... But... It might be economical on case-to-case basis. Best case to find metal boat - at least you can scrap it. > > Thanks for a reminder! I need to check local ADs. > > P.S. Many states have a law to deal with abandoned boats as well. Pretty costly if you got caught. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > With the collapse of the stock boat market, there are huge numbers of rotted out hulks, sometimes free for the taking, with prefectly good rigs , winches , sails, anchors etc, etc on board.One can save a huge amount of time and money by keeping an eye out for such boats. Masts , sheet winches, sails which have rarely seen the sun , etc dont deteriorate. > | 30270|30259|2013-06-03 15:11:30|brentswain38|Re: Old boat salvage|Most of those old Fg boats have a lot of lead in the keel, which is not cheap any more. I once melted a 300 lb lump of lead , on the beach, with a tiger torch, into more managable chunks.I just heated it til a river of a more managable size drained out,let it cool, picked it up, then made another river , till it was all in more mangagable river shaped pieces. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > I have disassembled a fiberglass boat before with a sawzaw.. :) I could walk along the hull and cut it like a hot knife through butter with a good blade. Just cut the hull up into pieces of a size to fit in a pickup and haul it to the dump. A thirty foot boat could be cut up in a day easy.I would imagine a circular saw would work well also. > scott > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > In many places it is need to pay for disposal of the boat (especially fiberglass ones) after stripping it off. It is need to transport old boat to disposal site too... But... It might be economical on case-to-case basis. Best case to find metal boat - at least you can scrap it. > > > > Thanks for a reminder! I need to check local ADs. > > > > P.S. Many states have a law to deal with abandoned boats as well. Pretty costly if you got caught. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > With the collapse of the stock boat market, there are huge numbers of rotted out hulks, sometimes free for the taking, with prefectly good rigs , winches , sails, anchors etc, etc on board.One can save a huge amount of time and money by keeping an eye out for such boats. Masts , sheet winches, sails which have rarely seen the sun , etc dont deteriorate. > > > | 30271|30259|2013-06-03 16:10:39|Mike|Re: Old boat salvage|I pick up lots of used fiberglass boats and recycle the keels lead cuts like butter with a chainsaw. And as long as you don't hit the keel bolts it doesn't dull your chain. I've g Sent from my iPhonet up 4300 lbs worth this year. On Jun 3, 2013, at 2:11 PM, "brentswain38" wrote: > Most of those old Fg boats have a lot of lead in the keel, which is not cheap any more. I once melted a 300 lb lump of lead , on the beach, with a tiger torch, into more managable chunks.I just heated it til a river of a more managable size drained out,let it cool, picked it up, then made another river , till it was all in more mangagable river shaped pieces. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > > > I have disassembled a fiberglass boat before with a sawzaw.. :) I could walk along the hull and cut it like a hot knife through butter with a good blade. Just cut the hull up into pieces of a size to fit in a pickup and haul it to the dump. A thirty foot boat could be cut up in a day easy.I would imagine a circular saw would work well also. > > scott > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > In many places it is need to pay for disposal of the boat (especially fiberglass ones) after stripping it off. It is need to transport old boat to disposal site too... But... It might be economical on case-to-case basis. Best case to find metal boat - at least you can scrap it. > > > > > > Thanks for a reminder! I need to check local ADs. > > > > > > P.S. Many states have a law to deal with abandoned boats as well. Pretty costly if you got caught. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > With the collapse of the stock boat market, there are huge numbers of rotted out hulks, sometimes free for the taking, with prefectly good rigs , winches , sails, anchors etc, etc on board.One can save a huge amount of time and money by keeping an eye out for such boats. Masts , sheet winches, sails which have rarely seen the sun , etc dont deteriorate. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30272|30272|2013-06-03 21:57:05|x|Kona, Hawaii|We were cruising West Hawaii this weekend, anchored mostly in Kawaihae Harbor. We stopped by Honokohau Harbor and saw a Brent Swain 36 ! Very similar to our boat. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/709270092/pic/li\ st [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30273|30263|2013-06-04 09:14:01|ragnarpar|Re: Mig wire and gas|Well, now my antennae are up. I have done a wee bit of mig, always "looked" solid and full?. So, maybe a box to pressure test is a good idea. I guess I better review the limitations, pros and cons of the mig process a bit more. I remember the ship yard using mig extensively on board, but that was mostly deck and house work. Maybe I should contain the mig to deck and cabin? Ok, thanks for the fear factor and heads up. Par --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote: > > You may want to build a small metal box and pressure test it. It maybe 1'x1'x1'. It may change your mind about trying to weld up your boat with mig. Making something that doesn't leak with mig can be done but its not as easy as just running a bead. I'd hate for you to get most of your welding done and then be chasing leaks everywhere. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 2, 2013, at 12:53 PM, Aaron wrote: > > > Make sure to clean the tacks. Grind starts and stops as the slag will pop hole in the mig weld. > > Straight Co2 is very prone to porosity. The pin holes will be found with diesel or air testing. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: ragnarpar > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:21 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mig wire and gas > > > > > > > > > > Ok,thanks for the heads up. > > I'll get a small ie 5-10 lb roll of the .035 for 1/8-1/8 and a bigger 25lb roll of .045 for anything touching the 3/16. > > I suspected 75/25, thanks for the confirmation. I did some mig a few years back, had several mixes, 75/25 gave the best penetration . Looked too good and seemed too easy to be true. Ahh, just another tool, propper place and time, and frame of mind. > > > > Thanks again, > > > > Par > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > > > Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? > > > Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? > > > And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? > > > > > > Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. > > > > > > So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment just setting there. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30274|30272|2013-06-04 16:09:36|brentswain38|Re: Kona, Hawaii|Don't know why anyone would put a servo pendulum rig on a boat with an outboard rudder with a trimtab. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > We were cruising West Hawaii this weekend, anchored mostly in Kawaihae > Harbor. We stopped by Honokohau Harbor and saw a Brent Swain 36 ! Very > similar to our boat. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/709270092/pic/li\ > st > 2/pic/list> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30275|30272|2013-06-04 16:27:14|x|Re: Kona, Hawaii|The servo pendulum is expensive and complex. A servo tab (AKA trim tab) is simple and can be fabricated easily. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Don't know why anyone would put a servo pendulum rig on a boat with an outboard rudder with a trimtab. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > We were cruising West Hawaii this weekend, anchored mostly in Kawaihae > > Harbor. We stopped by Honokohau Harbor and saw a Brent Swain 36 ! Very > > similar to our boat. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/709270092/pic/li\ > > st > > > 2/pic/list> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 30277|30277|2013-06-05 11:42:20|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: your Mig|Par,   I bought a Miller 175 mig a few years back & got a similar reaction. Then, raw as they come, built a heat exchanger out of ss that pressure tested to 60 psi. took a while but the upshot was more heat.  lots of heat & it flows as sweet as....... BUT you need gass. With stick welding no gas, just the right stick, (& skill)  so with mig your going higher teck for ease of application thus less knowledge required to put down what at -least -looks -like a good weld.   Frankly that is what I think is the crux of the matter & that is why the guys who have been welding with stick for their whole lives try to warn you against it. For some of the really heavy welding needed, stick with heaps of power & maybe a tiger torch is needed cuz you just have to get a lot of heat into it which you just don't have available on espcially smaller mig units like mine, but for lighter fab work of 3/16",  no worries. The flux core (mine is .035 max) seems to give good penetration   I wasn't really sold till I did some test pieces & try to bust em, or cut em apart. Try it. Then for a the heavy duty stuff I'd pay the man who has the equip, knowledge etc etc & do all the prep work for him & whatever needed so he can keep that arc going. Just my 2bits. I've not built a steelie. Shane                   1a Re: Mig wire and gas Tue Jun 4, 2013 6:14 am (PDT) . Posted by: "ragnarpar" ragnarpar Well, now my antennae are up. I have done a wee bit of mig, always "looked" solid and full?. So, maybe a box to pressure test is a good idea. I guess I better review the limitations, pros and cons of the mig process a bit more. I remember the ship yard using mig extensively on board, but that was mostly deck and house work. Maybe I should contain the mig to deck and cabin? Ok, thanks for the fear factor and heads up. Par --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Mike wrote: > > You may want to build a small metal box and pressure test it. It maybe 1'x1' x1'. It may change your mind about trying to weld up your boat with mig. Making something that doesn't leak with mig can be done but its not as easy as just running a bead. I'd hate for you to get most of your welding done and then be chasing leaks everywhere. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 2, 2013, at 12:53 PM, Aaron wrote: > > > Make sure to clean the tacks. Grind starts and stops as the slag will pop hole in the mig weld. > > Straight Co2 is very prone to porosity. The pin holes will be found with diesel or air testing. > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > From: ragnarpar > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:21 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mig wire and gas > > > > > > > > > > Ok,thanks for the heads up. > > I'll get a small ie 5-10 lb roll of the .035 for 1/8-1/8 and a bigger 25lb roll of .045 for anything touching the 3/16. > > I suspected 75/25, thanks for the confirmation. I did some mig a few years back, had several mixes, 75/25 gave the best penetration . Looked too good and seemed too easy to be true. Ahh, just another tool, propper place and time, and frame of mind. > > > > Thanks again, > > > > Par > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats %40yahoogroups. com, "ragnarpar&quo t; wrote: > > > > > > Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? > > > Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? > > > And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? > > > > > > Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. > > > > > > So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment just setting there. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Par > > > ________________________________ From: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2013 2:00:05 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Digest Number 4201 Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Group 3 New Messages Digest #4201 1a Re: Mig wire and gas by "ragnarpar" ragnarpar 2a Re: Kona, Hawaii by "brentswain38" brentswain38 2b Re: Kona, Hawaii by "x" heretic_37ft Messages 1a Re: Mig wire and gas Tue Jun 4, 2013 6:14 am (PDT) . Posted by: "ragnarpar" ragnarpar Well, now my antennae are up. I have done a wee bit of mig, always "looked" solid and full?. So, maybe a box to pressure test is a good idea. I guess I better review the limitations, pros and cons of the mig process a bit more. I remember the ship yard using mig extensively on board, but that was mostly deck and house work. Maybe I should contain the mig to deck and cabin? Ok, thanks for the fear factor and heads up. Par --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote: > > You may want to build a small metal box and pressure test it. It maybe 1'x1' x1'. It may change your mind about trying to weld up your boat with mig. Making something that doesn't leak with mig can be done but its not as easy as just running a bead. I'd hate for you to get most of your welding done and then be chasing leaks everywhere. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 2, 2013, at 12:53 PM, Aaron wrote: > > > Make sure to clean the tacks. Grind starts and stops as the slag will pop hole in the mig weld. > > Straight Co2 is very prone to porosity. The pin holes will be found with diesel or air testing. > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > From: ragnarpar > > To: mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:21 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mig wire and gas > > > > > > > > > > Ok,thanks for the heads up. > > I'll get a small ie 5-10 lb roll of the .035 for 1/8-1/8 and a bigger 25lb roll of .045 for anything touching the 3/16. > > I suspected 75/25, thanks for the confirmation. I did some mig a few years back, had several mixes, 75/25 gave the best penetration . Looked too good and seemed too easy to be true. Ahh, just another tool, propper place and time, and frame of mind. > > > > Thanks again, > > > > Par > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats %40yahoogroups. com, "ragnarpar&quo t; wrote: > > > > > > Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? > > > Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? > > > And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? > > > > > > Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. > > > > > > So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment just setting there. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (7) . Top ^ 2a Re: Kona, Hawaii Tue Jun 4, 2013 1:09 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38 Don't know why anyone would put a servo pendulum rig on a boat with an outboard rudder with a trimtab. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > We were cruising West Hawaii this weekend, anchored mostly in Kawaihae > Harbor. We stopped by Honokohau Harbor and saw a Brent Swain 36 ! Very > similar to our boat. > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/origamiboa ts/photos/ album/709270092/ pic/li\ > st > 2/pic/list> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (3) . Top ^ 2b Re: Kona, Hawaii Tue Jun 4, 2013 1:27 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "x" heretic_37ft The servo pendulum is expensive and complex. A servo tab (AKA trim tab) is simple and can be fabricated easily. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38& quot; wrote: > > Don't know why anyone would put a servo pendulum rig on a boat with an outboard rudder with a trimtab. > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > > > We were cruising West Hawaii this weekend, anchored mostly in Kawaihae > > Harbor. We stopped by Honokohau Harbor and saw a Brent Swain 36 ! Very > > similar to our boat. > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/origamiboa ts/photos/ album/709270092/ pic/li\ > > st > > > 2/pic/list> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (3) . Top ^ Visit Your Group > View All Topics > Create New Topic > 4 New Members > 13 New Photos > We are making changes based on your feedback, Thank you ! Submit Feedback > The Yahoo! Groups Product Blog Check it out! > GROUP FOOTER MESSAGE To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com CHANGE SETTINGS > TERMS OF USE > UNSUBSCRIBE > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30278|30263|2013-06-05 19:13:42|Paul Thompson|Re: Mig wire and gas|I built my boat using mig and have had no problems at with the welds. Used stick to tack everything together and then the mig to sew it all up. The boat has been used for 25 years now with no issues with the welds at all. Paul Thompson On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 1:13 AM, ragnarpar wrote: > > > > Well, now my antennae are up. > I have done a wee bit of mig, always "looked" solid and full?. > So, maybe a box to pressure test is a good idea. > I guess I better review the limitations, pros and cons of the mig process > a bit more. > I remember the ship yard using mig extensively on board, but that was > mostly deck and house work. Maybe I should contain the mig to deck and > cabin? > > Ok, thanks for the fear factor and heads up. > > Par > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote: > > > > You may want to build a small metal box and pressure test it. It maybe > 1'x1'x1'. It may change your mind about trying to weld up your boat with > mig. Making something that doesn't leak with mig can be done but its not as > easy as just running a bead. I'd hate for you to get most of your welding > done and then be chasing leaks everywhere. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jun 2, 2013, at 12:53 PM, Aaron wrote: > > > > > Make sure to clean the tacks. Grind starts and stops as the slag will > pop hole in the mig weld. > > > Straight Co2 is very prone to porosity. The pin holes will be found > with diesel or air testing. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: ragnarpar > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:21 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mig wire and gas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok,thanks for the heads up. > > > I'll get a small ie 5-10 lb roll of the .035 for 1/8-1/8 and a bigger > 25lb roll of .045 for anything touching the 3/16. > > > I suspected 75/25, thanks for the confirmation. I did some mig a few > years back, had several mixes, 75/25 gave the best penetration . Looked too > good and seemed too easy to be true. Ahh, just another tool, propper place > and time, and frame of mind. > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > Par > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the > selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? > > > > Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? > > > > And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? > > > > > > > > Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the > options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. > > > > > > > > So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment > just setting there. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30279|30279|2013-06-07 00:42:55|wild_explorer|Used industrial diesel engine|It looks like in US, it will be a lot of used nonroad diesel engines which do not comply with EPA regulations. Companies will not be able to use or refurbish "non-compliant" nonroad diesels. I suspect it should meet Tier 4. Marine diesels are regulated by Tier 2 at this time for small engines? There is many diesels with electronic speed control now. It getting harder to find used diesel with mechanical speed control (most marinized engines use this type). Can somebody comment on this? P.S. Looks like there are some exemptions for Engines installed on a vessel manufactured by a person for his/her own use| 30280|30280|2013-06-07 08:04:11|Carl Volkwein|Carl Volkwein|http://www.maximilianhuxley.com/emx/khiwhy.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30281|30279|2013-06-07 09:22:27|Denis Buggy|Re: Used industrial diesel engine|hi all if you are offshore a lot ---lightning strike can destroy the fuel system of a engine -- where ever a coil or capacitor is used expect trouble --some hall effect sensors can detect a lightning storm 70 miles away , the behaviour of components in proximity to high voltages and currents is very un predictable -- everything should be unplugged during a lightning storm . should the coil on your starter motor solenoid burn out you can pull the bendix of the starter forward with a heavy screwdriver and engage the flywheel and cross the heavy wires to motor your starter and get your engine going . the mechanical fuel/injector pump is the only solution when /if lightning is an issue as injectors and their computer controller and sensors all have a coil which will act as an antenna when the millions of volts are nearby and goodnight if your life depends on your engine -- I believe many offshore people have mechanical navigation options as a backup also . regards Denis Buggy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30282|30279|2013-06-07 10:20:25|wild_explorer|Re: Used industrial diesel engine|Just a clarification... Usually nonroad diesels have mechanical injector's pump, but speed control (to keep constant RPM) might be electronic or mechanical. Electronic speed control become more common on DI (direct injection) models. What is interesting, looks like Kubota is moving back to inderect injection (IDI) and able to comply with Tier 4 without much modifications for its popular small engines models. Quote: Tier 2 (engines models 2004/2005-2007 25-50hp/<25hp) expiration is Dec 31 2014. Tier 4i (engines models 2008-2012 25-50hp) expiration is Dec 31 2019 Are there emission tiers that cannot be achieved with a rebuild? Staff is aware that it is not possible to rebuild a Tier 1 Isuzu engine to a Tier 2 certified configuration and it is not possible to rebuild a Tier 1 or Tier 2 Kubota engine to Tier 4i certified configuration. Therefore, TRU owners are cautioned against purchasing rebuilt engines claiming to meet these certified configurations. End of quote| 30283|30279|2013-06-07 15:38:21|brentswain38|Re: Used industrial diesel engine|Great post . Thanks .That is why I would try to avoid dependence on electrics, wherever possible. Kubotas have decompression levers which could make you completely independent of electricity for starting and running your engine. Lucas makes spring starters. I have permanently mounteda push start on my starter. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > hi all > if you are offshore a lot ---lightning strike can destroy the fuel system of a engine -- where ever a coil or capacitor is used expect trouble --some hall effect sensors can detect a lightning storm 70 miles away , > the behaviour of components in proximity to high voltages and currents is very un predictable -- everything should be unplugged during a lightning storm . > should the coil on your starter motor solenoid burn out you can pull the bendix of the starter forward with a heavy screwdriver and engage the flywheel and cross the heavy wires to motor your starter and get your engine going . > the mechanical fuel/injector pump is the only solution when /if lightning is an issue as injectors and their computer controller and sensors all have a coil which will act as an antenna when the millions of volts are nearby and goodnight if your life depends on your engine -- I believe many offshore people have mechanical navigation options as a backup also . regards Denis Buggy > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30284|30279|2013-06-07 16:01:30|x|Re: Used industrial diesel engine|Steel sailboats make an exceptionally good ground and will "direct" electrical potential right back to the source! Composite construction i.e. organic material (wood, GRP) will allow for wandering current (resistance/arching). For serious cruising steel is my number one choice. Also, aluminum is frick'n loud when hit by waves or running the engines. Sleeping on an aluminum boat on the high seas is challenge for me! Bring ear protection! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Great post . Thanks .That is why I would try to avoid dependence on electrics, wherever possible. Kubotas have decompression levers which could make you completely independent of electricity for starting and running your engine. Lucas makes spring starters. > I have permanently mounteda push start on my starter. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > hi all > > if you are offshore a lot ---lightning strike can destroy the fuel system of a engine -- where ever a coil or capacitor is used expect trouble --some hall effect sensors can detect a lightning storm 70 miles away , > > the behaviour of components in proximity to high voltages and currents is very un predictable -- everything should be unplugged during a lightning storm . > > should the coil on your starter motor solenoid burn out you can pull the bendix of the starter forward with a heavy screwdriver and engage the flywheel and cross the heavy wires to motor your starter and get your engine going . > > the mechanical fuel/injector pump is the only solution when /if lightning is an issue as injectors and their computer controller and sensors all have a coil which will act as an antenna when the millions of volts are nearby and goodnight if your life depends on your engine -- I believe many offshore people have mechanical navigation options as a backup also . regards Denis Buggy > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 30285|30279|2013-06-07 17:52:43|Doug Jackson|Skeg Cooling PSI|Engine coolant systems run over 15 psi.  Is something done to reduce the pressure when using a skeg cooler or is the skeg built that strong?     Thanks Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30286|30286|2013-06-07 18:09:12|clivehamman|Brent Swain OrigamiBoat survive 4.5mnths unattented on Reef.|While I was in Canada on business my 14.35 meter one off design Chinesejunk Nuthin-Wong while being moved from one bay to another was driven onto a reef in Bocas del Toro by a storm. the first month attempts where made to free her up ,unsuccessfully, from which time she was abandoned and allowed to go to weather.She was robbed of all gear and personal effects. Salt water entered through the stern tube and rainwater through hatches left open... flooding the Perkins diesel and causing a mess below decks, mixed with battery acid, diesel and garbage. once I was back aboard within 28 days I found a new crew, Captain Marlin and two Indian crew aboard a 35 foot dugout Patch, with a 40 H.P.Yamaha with a special propeller they worked 9 hrs a day cutting a channel 35 foot to deep water. After 5 days we where ready to pull the Wong off the next day when a storm come through and gave the 30 ton Wong a pounding, body slamming her down endlessly hour after hour after hour, while I was hanging on in the wheel house I saw the solid Douglas fir main mast go overboard at 5.46 am starboard side, because the wedges had fallen out and the rig removed, the free standing mast wore round the collar and even after I replaced the wedges the damage was already done. I know how strong the Wong was built but was wondering how much more punishment it could take. I crawled out side to inspect the overboard rudder hung on two pintals and a shoe at the bottom, to discover the rudder had jumped out the shoe and was swinging like a pendelum. An hour later it sheared off just below the quadrant falling in the water. The Wong was built in Fanny bay by Brent Swain , kenny Splett master welder , Brian Cousins and myself.. I was told by a professional boat builder that in his opinion the Wong was the toughest 47 ft steel boat he had ever seen. and it proved to be right, as once the water was pumped out and the stern Tube sealed , the hull was and still is dry as a biscuit. Once off the reef I was towed to A safe mooring where I spent the next 3 months getting the rust off and the Tar on inside and out, finished the wood work below which was never done before Circumnavigating. I can get another fir mast from Honduras, get the ^ cylinder Perkins out and rebuilt in Panama , and repair the rudder. The Wong will then be seaworthy again and ready to close on the last leg of a voyage that began in 1991, Panama to B.C.I stand erect and salute Master builder and ship wright Capt. Brent Swain on his Origami boat design.I now retired and need a smaller boat, so Nuthin Wong is for sale for someone who wants to go round again. I wrote a book No Fixed Address about the first 17 years out. and a DVD Learning How To Leave. Available from me . Contact Chinesejunk1@... Submitted A. Clive Hamman.| 30287|30279|2013-06-07 18:11:56|brentswain38|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|I just use a push on plastic cap on my header tank and it hasn't blown off yet. Maybe 15 psi in the engine but almost zero on the skeg or outside the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Engine coolant systems run over 15 psi.  Is something done to reduce the pressure when using a skeg cooler or is the skeg built that strong?   >   > Thanks > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30288|30279|2013-06-07 19:11:23|Doug Jackson|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|But the coolant is in a loop so the psi in the engine would be almost the same as the skeg, correct?  And if it's less than 15 psi then isn't the coolant is going to boil in the engine as create air pockets and thus hotspots?   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 5:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI   I just use a push on plastic cap on my header tank and it hasn't blown off yet. Maybe 15 psi in the engine but almost zero on the skeg or outside the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Engine coolant systems run over 15 psi.  Is something done to reduce the pressure when using a skeg cooler or is the skeg built that strong?   >   > Thanks > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30289|30279|2013-06-07 20:20:05|Paul Wilson|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|I don't use a radiator cap so there is no pressure build up. The gravity feed from an expansion/ header tank is the only pressure. It feeds into a high spot in the engine loop. Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 8/06/2013 11:11 a.m., Doug Jackson wrote: > > But the coolant is in a loop so the psi in the engine would be almost > the same as the skeg, correct? And if it's less than 15 psi then > isn't the coolant is going to boil in the engine as create air pockets > and thus hotspots? > > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 5:11 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI > > > > I just use a push on plastic cap on my header tank and it hasn't blown > off yet. Maybe 15 psi in the engine but almost zero on the skeg or > outside the engine. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Doug Jackson > wrote: > > > > Engine coolant systems run over 15 psi. Is something done to reduce > the pressure when using a skeg cooler or is the skeg built that strong? > > > > Thanks > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 30290|30279|2013-06-07 20:40:16|wild_explorer|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|In cars, 15 psi in cooling system is to increase boiling point of the coolant by about 45F/25C. So, it is more applicable to engines with air-cooled radiators. For skeg/keel cooling, you might be able to afford 0 psi - coolant should not get close to boiling point under normal conditions. Similar to if you had big pool for coolant, and dump warm coolant from the engine to one side and take cool coolant into the engine from opposite side. There is no pressure at intake, only through the engine, and there is an expansion vessel with some air on top of it - it is not hydraulically closed circuit. Compare it with brakes which have air in brake's line ;) Another story if you need to keep engine temperature near boiling point of the coolant.| 30291|30279|2013-06-07 20:46:07|Matt Malone|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|The marine engines I have seen (open-loop fresh water cooled) run cooler than car and truck engines, so they do not need the PSI to keep the coolant from boiling. Also, boiling would be undesirable as the engine would very quickly build up minerals inside. Simply heating water can make it build up minerals too, but slower. The pump that draws in water from outside the boat is usually a small, low pressure pump, and the exit from the engine is not that restricted, so, there is no way, in its ordinary life, most fresh water cooled engine would ever reach 15psi. I had always envisioned the cooling water circuit would be, out of the engine, into a coil of tube in a tank (my hot water tank), then to a 4-way valve or 2 single valves to either force the water into, or bypass, a loop of tubing all around the interior of the boat -- to provide heating in chilly weather, and then to the skeg, and then to a vented overflow tank high on a bulkhead on the center line, where water would feed by gravity back to the engine intake pump. I would keep an eye on the level in the overflow tank I have seen truck-sized diesel generators in remote locations circulate their coolant through rads to provide building heating. If your engine was a sealed, pressurized coolant system, like a re-purposed vehicle engine, or anything that had a pressure-relief rad cap (15psi), then, make sure the entire system can take the pressure, the engine is designed to run at pressure and will likely percolate without it. That would be bad. Local vapour locks would form easily and local overheating can occur. One might burn out one area of the engine. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 22:11:53 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI I just use a push on plastic cap on my header tank and it hasn't blown off yet. Maybe 15 psi in the engine but almost zero on the skeg or outside the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Engine coolant systems run over 15 psi. Is something done to reduce the pressure when using a skeg cooler or is the skeg built that strong? > > Thanks > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30292|30279|2013-06-07 21:03:39|Doug Jackson|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|So did you remove the thermostat?   Our Cummins 5.9 is suppose to run at 185 to 195 F  (water boils at 212) but the manual is really clear about needing a 15psi cap.  Oh! you know, maybe that for driving in the mountains?      Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 7:40 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI   In cars, 15 psi in cooling system is to increase boiling point of the coolant by about 45F/25C. So, it is more applicable to engines with air-cooled radiators. For skeg/keel cooling, you might be able to afford 0 psi - coolant should not get close to boiling point under normal conditions. Similar to if you had big pool for coolant, and dump warm coolant from the engine to one side and take cool coolant into the engine from opposite side. There is no pressure at intake, only through the engine, and there is an expansion vessel with some air on top of it - it is not hydraulically closed circuit. Compare it with brakes which have air in brake's line ;) Another story if you need to keep engine temperature near boiling point of the coolant. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30293|30279|2013-06-07 21:13:26|Doug Jackson|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|Thanks.  That last paragraph is exactly what I don't want. :)   Our engine is a Cummins 5.9 out of a school bus and there is no-way the skeg will take 15 psi.   So I may need an heat exchanger and a low pressure pump.  I may be able to run it with no-psi on the coolant but I will not know until I can put load on it.   ...or I find someone that is running a 5.9 at 1atm.    Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 7:46 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI The marine engines I have seen (open-loop fresh water cooled) run cooler than car and truck engines, so they do not need the PSI to keep the coolant from boiling.  Also, boiling would be undesirable as the engine would very quickly build up minerals inside.  Simply heating water can make it build up minerals too, but slower.  The pump that draws in water from outside the boat is usually a small, low pressure pump, and the exit from the engine is not that restricted, so, there is no way, in its ordinary life, most fresh water cooled engine would ever reach 15psi.  I had always envisioned the cooling water circuit would be, out of the engine, into a coil of tube in a tank (my hot water tank), then to a 4-way valve or 2 single valves to either force the water into, or bypass, a loop of tubing all around the interior of the boat -- to provide heating in chilly weather, and then to the skeg, and then to a vented overflow tank high on a bulkhead on the center line, where water would feed by gravity back to the engine intake pump.  I would keep an eye on the level in the overflow tank I have seen truck-sized diesel generators in remote locations circulate their coolant through rads to provide building heating. If your engine was a sealed, pressurized coolant system, like a re-purposed vehicle engine, or anything that had a pressure-relief rad cap (15psi), then, make sure the entire system can take the pressure, the engine is designed to run at pressure and will likely percolate without it.  That would be bad.  Local vapour locks would form easily and local overheating can occur.  One might burn out one area of the engine.  Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 22:11:53 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI                         I just use a push on plastic cap on my header tank and it hasn't  blown off yet. Maybe 15 psi in the engine but almost zero on the skeg or outside the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Engine coolant systems run over 15 psi.  Is something done to reduce the pressure when using a skeg cooler or is the skeg built that strong?  >  > Thanks > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30294|30279|2013-06-07 21:27:46|martin demers|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|why would a steel skeg not take 15 psi? It seems overbuilt compare to a car radiator. That is my impression, tell me if I am wrong Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 18:13:24 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI Thanks. That last paragraph is exactly what I don't want. :) Our engine is a Cummins 5.9 out of a school bus and there is no-way the skeg will take 15 psi. So I may need an heat exchanger and a low pressure pump. I may be able to run it with no-psi on the coolant but I will not know until I can put load on it. ...or I find someone that is running a 5.9 at 1atm. Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 7:46 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI The marine engines I have seen (open-loop fresh water cooled) run cooler than car and truck engines, so they do not need the PSI to keep the coolant from boiling. Also, boiling would be undesirable as the engine would very quickly build up minerals inside. Simply heating water can make it build up minerals too, but slower. The pump that draws in water from outside the boat is usually a small, low pressure pump, and the exit from the engine is not that restricted, so, there is no way, in its ordinary life, most fresh water cooled engine would ever reach 15psi. I had always envisioned the cooling water circuit would be, out of the engine, into a coil of tube in a tank (my hot water tank), then to a 4-way valve or 2 single valves to either force the water into, or bypass, a loop of tubing all around the interior of the boat -- to provide heating in chilly weather, and then to the skeg, and then to a vented overflow tank high on a bulkhead on the center line, where water would feed by gravity back to the engine intake pump. I would keep an eye on the level in the overflow tank I have seen truck-sized diesel generators in remote locations circulate their coolant through rads to provide building heating. If your engine was a sealed, pressurized coolant system, like a re-purposed vehicle engine, or anything that had a pressure-relief rad cap (15psi), then, make sure the entire system can take the pressure, the engine is designed to run at pressure and will likely percolate without it. That would be bad. Local vapour locks would form easily and local overheating can occur. One might burn out one area of the engine. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 22:11:53 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI I just use a push on plastic cap on my header tank and it hasn't blown off yet. Maybe 15 psi in the engine but almost zero on the skeg or outside the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Engine coolant systems run over 15 psi. Is something done to reduce the pressure when using a skeg cooler or is the skeg built that strong? > > Thanks > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30295|30279|2013-06-07 21:36:49|Doug Jackson|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|I know this one!  I built keel cooler boxes into an aluminum boat.  They were 6 inches wide and 3/16 plate and they worked fine at 15 psi.  I also build an oil cooler in that was 6 the same size and it buckled and exploded 3 times at 60 psi before I gave up.   And yes, it makes a huge mess when it explodes.   The problem is that a skeg with just 4 square feet of plate will amass 4 sq ft * 144 sq in per foot * 15 psi = 8640 pounds of force.    Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 8:27 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI why would a steel skeg not take 15 psi? It seems  overbuilt compare to a car radiator. That is my impression, tell me if I am wrong Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 18:13:24 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI                         Thanks.  That last paragraph is exactly what I don't want. :)  Our engine is a Cummins 5.9 out of a school bus and there is no-way the skeg will take 15 psi.  So I may need an heat exchanger and a low pressure pump.  I may be able to run it with no-psi on the coolant but I will not know until I can put load on it.  ...or I find someone that is running a 5.9 at 1atm. Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 7:46 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI The marine engines I have seen (open-loop fresh water cooled) run cooler than car and truck engines, so they do not need the PSI to keep the coolant from boiling.  Also, boiling would be undesirable as the engine would very quickly build up minerals inside.  Simply heating water can make it build up minerals too, but slower.  The pump that draws in water from outside the boat is usually a small, low pressure pump, and the exit from the engine is not that restricted, so, there is no way, in its ordinary life, most fresh water cooled engine would ever reach 15psi.  I had always envisioned the cooling water circuit would be, out of the engine, into a coil of tube in a tank (my hot water tank), then to a 4-way valve or 2 single valves to either force the water into, or bypass, a loop of tubing all around the interior of the boat -- to provide heating in chilly weather, and then to the skeg, and then to a vented overflow tank high on a bulkhead on the center line, where water would feed by gravity back to the engine intake pump.  I would keep an eye on the level in the overflow tank I have seen truck-sized diesel generators in remote locations circulate their coolant through rads to provide building heating. If your engine was a sealed, pressurized coolant system, like a re-purposed vehicle engine, or anything that had a pressure-relief rad cap (15psi), then, make sure the entire system can take the pressure, the engine is designed to run at pressure and will likely percolate without it.  That would be bad.  Local vapour locks would form easily and local overheating can occur.  One might burn out one area of the engine.  Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 22:11:53 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI                         I just use a push on plastic cap on my header tank and it hasn't  blown off yet. Maybe 15 psi in the engine but almost zero on the skeg or outside the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Engine coolant systems run over 15 psi.  Is something done to reduce the pressure when using a skeg cooler or is the skeg built that strong?  >  > Thanks > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >                                             [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30296|30279|2013-06-07 21:40:17|Paul Wilson|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|I am sure there are quite a few different ways to do it. Here is how mine is done. I still have the thermostat. The coolant circulates in the closed loop of the engine, gets to temperature and then when the thermostat opens the coolant from the keel cooler starts to come in to the engine. I use the centrifugal pump that came with the engine. It is the standard centrifugal pump that came with the engine like a water pump on a car engine. The coolant from the skeg runs through fairly large hoses (1 inch heater hose) since a centrifugal pump is low pressure high volume. The cold coolant coming from the skeg runs through the exhaust manifold first before hitting the engine. I was told to do it this way by an old timer. He said it preheated the water a bit which was easier on the engine. I thought the exhaust manifold might get too hot before the coolant circulation kicked in but it has been no problem. I am not sure if I was using an impeller pump like a Jabsco if my setup would need to be any different. The engine comes up to temp as quick as any car engine and never overheats or boils. You can get airlocks if you ever let the coolant get low or on first fill-up but if you crack a line at any high point and keep the header tank topped up, you never have a problem after it is first set up. As long as you use anti-freeze you shouldn't get any scale. I think they are telling you to use the thermostat because you get higher boiling point and better cooling in the radiator. With the cool sea water temp of the keel cooler, the boiling point should never get too high, even in the block, so you don't need the high pressure. Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 8/06/2013 1:03 p.m., Doug Jackson wrote: > > So did you remove the thermostat? Our Cummins 5.9 is suppose to run > at 185 to 195 F (water boils at 212) but the manual is really clear > about needing a 15psi cap. Oh! you know, maybe that for driving in > the mountains? > > Doug > SVSeeker.com > | 30297|30279|2013-06-07 21:43:02|Matt Malone|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|Seems the easiest solution is to weld a replacement skeg up out of thicker material. A second heat exchanger is another welding project. A second heat exchanger, and the skeg, would have to be twice the size because now each is moving the same total heat over half the temperature drop. To get the same Q heat flow net, first estimate, you need more contact area, in both. And you need another pump. Twice as many things to go wrong. And if your heat exchanger develops an internal leak, it might pressurize the skeg and bam.... It seems the easiest solution is to weld a replacement skeg. You might weld in cross-ties to carry the internal pressure loads, sort of like the cross-ties that keep a rafter roof from pushing the walls out. Remember, rads hold 15 PSI in their end-reservoirs and they are pretty light metal. I am sure you can manage it, and it is easily tested (inside a garbage can full of water, in case it goes bam...) by pressurizing it with 60 or so PSI from a home garden hose. If you want to test it to higher pressure, fill it with water, then apply an air hose, again with the skeg in a garbage can full of water. I would recommend against using 100% compressed air -- a lot more energy if it goes bam. Without the pressure in an engine designed to run at pressure, a hotter spot can develop, and the water will vapourize there. It may form enough back-pressure to resist the circulation pressure locally. The vapour is a poor conductor of heat so, if the circulation is not forceful enough at every point in the engine to flush a bubble through, the area will stay in vapour, the hot spot will get a lot hotter. Though the temp gage and cap might say everything is fine, you might burn out something. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svseeker@... Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 18:13:24 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI Thanks. That last paragraph is exactly what I don't want. :) Our engine is a Cummins 5.9 out of a school bus and there is no-way the skeg will take 15 psi. So I may need an heat exchanger and a low pressure pump. I may be able to run it with no-psi on the coolant but I will not know until I can put load on it. ...or I find someone that is running a 5.9 at 1atm. Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 7:46 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI The marine engines I have seen (open-loop fresh water cooled) run cooler than car and truck engines, so they do not need the PSI to keep the coolant from boiling. Also, boiling would be undesirable as the engine would very quickly build up minerals inside. Simply heating water can make it build up minerals too, but slower. The pump that draws in water from outside the boat is usually a small, low pressure pump, and the exit from the engine is not that restricted, so, there is no way, in its ordinary life, most fresh water cooled engine would ever reach 15psi. I had always envisioned the cooling water circuit would be, out of the engine, into a coil of tube in a tank (my hot water tank), then to a 4-way valve or 2 single valves to either force the water into, or bypass, a loop of tubing all around the interior of the boat -- to provide heating in chilly weather, and then to the skeg, and then to a vented overflow tank high on a bulkhead on the center line, where water would feed by gravity back to the engine intake pump. I would keep an eye on the level in the overflow tank I have seen truck-sized diesel generators in remote locations circulate their coolant through rads to provide building heating. If your engine was a sealed, pressurized coolant system, like a re-purposed vehicle engine, or anything that had a pressure-relief rad cap (15psi), then, make sure the entire system can take the pressure, the engine is designed to run at pressure and will likely percolate without it. That would be bad. Local vapour locks would form easily and local overheating can occur. One might burn out one area of the engine. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 22:11:53 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI I just use a push on plastic cap on my header tank and it hasn't blown off yet. Maybe 15 psi in the engine but almost zero on the skeg or outside the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Engine coolant systems run over 15 psi. Is something done to reduce the pressure when using a skeg cooler or is the skeg built that strong? > > Thanks > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30298|30279|2013-06-07 21:50:07|Paul Wilson|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|This surprises me....maybe larger engines are different than my 35 hp Isuzu but wouldn't the cold coolant start coming in and start cooling the engine long before the engine ever got that hot? I would think that the coolant in the engine is still circulating via the water pump around the engine even with the thermostat closed so there should be no hot spots. Once the thermostat starts opening, the coolant coming from the skeg is much colder than coolant coming from a radiator and then does it's thing. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 8/06/2013 12:46 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > If your engine was a sealed, pressurized coolant system, like a re-purposed vehicle engine, or anything that had a pressure-relief rad cap (15psi), then, make sure the entire system can take the pressure, the engine is designed to run at pressure and will likely percolate without it. That would be bad. Local vapour locks would form easily and local overheating can occur. One might burn out one area of the engine. > > Matt | 30299|30263|2013-06-07 22:01:03|jhess314|Re: Mig wire and gas|There is absolutely no reason why a MIG weld can't be as good as a stick weld. When I certified as a welder you had to weld two 3"x6"x3/8" plates together, creating one 6"x6" plate. The weld was then ground flush, and you cut out two 2"x6" "coupons", straddling the weld. The two coupons were then bent over a 2" diameter die, one bent with the root of the weld to the inside of the bend, and the other with the root of the weld to the outside of the bend (the position which showed a crack most often). You had to do this in all four positions: flat, horizontal, vertical, and overhead. To be certified with a pipe you had to do it with the axis of the pipe both vertical, horizontal, and at a 45-degree angle, with coupons cut from four locations. Generally speaking, I found it easier to weld with MIG, providing the base material was clean and the joint well-formed. No slag inclusions to worry about. But with rusty or dirty steel a deep-penetrating fast-freeze stick weld is better. And, of course, welding outdoors is easier with a slag-forming weld (stick or flux-core wire-feed). John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > I built my boat using mig and have had no problems at with the welds. Used > stick to tack everything together and then the mig to sew it all up. The > boat has been used for 25 years now with no issues with the welds at all. > > Paul Thompson > > > On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 1:13 AM, ragnarpar wrote: > > > > > > > > > Well, now my antennae are up. > > I have done a wee bit of mig, always "looked" solid and full?. > > So, maybe a box to pressure test is a good idea. > > I guess I better review the limitations, pros and cons of the mig process > > a bit more. > > I remember the ship yard using mig extensively on board, but that was > > mostly deck and house work. Maybe I should contain the mig to deck and > > cabin? > > > > Ok, thanks for the fear factor and heads up. > > > > Par > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote: > > > > > > You may want to build a small metal box and pressure test it. It maybe > > 1'x1'x1'. It may change your mind about trying to weld up your boat with > > mig. Making something that doesn't leak with mig can be done but its not as > > easy as just running a bead. I'd hate for you to get most of your welding > > done and then be chasing leaks everywhere. > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > On Jun 2, 2013, at 12:53 PM, Aaron wrote: > > > > > > > Make sure to clean the tacks. Grind starts and stops as the slag will > > pop hole in the mig weld. > > > > Straight Co2 is very prone to porosity. The pin holes will be found > > with diesel or air testing. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: ragnarpar > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:21 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mig wire and gas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok,thanks for the heads up. > > > > I'll get a small ie 5-10 lb roll of the .035 for 1/8-1/8 and a bigger > > 25lb roll of .045 for anything touching the 3/16. > > > > I suspected 75/25, thanks for the confirmation. I did some mig a few > > years back, had several mixes, 75/25 gave the best penetration . Looked too > > good and seemed too easy to be true. Ahh, just another tool, propper place > > and time, and frame of mind. > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the > > selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? > > > > > Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? > > > > > And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? > > > > > > > > > > Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the > > options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. > > > > > > > > > > So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment > > just setting there. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30300|30279|2013-06-07 22:37:09|Matt Malone|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|It depends entirely on the pattern of the cooling passages. If the passages are one long thin passage that winds through the engine, then, yes, the pump is certainly going to keep fluid flowing through the entire thing. The problem with that design is, where the water goes first runs a lot cooler than where the water goes last. To keep the temperature more even, cooling passages in engines may be multi branched, then if there is a small impediment to flow on one branch, it might increase flow in the other branches. This is where you might get a vapour lock problem. I have run an old pressurized tractor engine as a zero pressure perculator with the thermostat removed, however it would heat up oddly when I was going up or down hills, and would some times get very hot from just a little chaff in the rad. When I shut off the engine I could hear parts of it perculate for longer than other parts. Fortunately it was not a high performance engine, so, it overheated slowly, it is right in front of me while I was using it, so, it could not exactly do anything sudden and unexpected. It is still running but it is a chunk of iron about 2 times the size of my boat engine and only 80% of the horsepower (less hp) than my boat engine. In a modern diesel of the same size, it might easily be a 45 or 60hp engine, and, would overheat far faster if I did not cool it properly. Also, if it were under the floorboards out of sight, I am not sure I would notice before it reach oil-stink temperature. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2013 13:49:23 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI > > This surprises me....maybe larger engines are different than my 35 hp > Isuzu but wouldn't the cold coolant start coming in and start cooling > the engine long before the engine ever got that hot? I would think that > the coolant in the engine is still circulating via the water pump around > the engine even with the thermostat closed so there should be no hot > spots. Once the thermostat starts opening, the coolant coming from the > skeg is much colder than coolant coming from a radiator and then does > it's thing. > > Paul > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. >�. > > On 8/06/2013 12:46 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > If your engine was a sealed, pressurized coolant system, like a re-purposed vehicle engine, or anything that had a pressure-relief rad cap (15psi), then, make sure the entire system can take the pressure, the engine is designed to run at pressure and will likely percolate without it. That would be bad. Local vapour locks would form easily and local overheating can occur. One might burn out one area of the engine. > > > > Matt > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30301|30279|2013-06-07 23:11:22|wild_explorer|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|At this case you need to follow manufacturer's recommendations (185-195F). Why not to use standard setup with extra fan or heat exchanger? You should have enough space in your boat for dedicated engine room... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > So did you remove the thermostat?   Our Cummins 5.9 is suppose to run at 185 to 195 F  (water boils at 212) but the manual is really clear about needing a 15psi cap.  Oh! you know, maybe that for driving in the mountains?    >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com | 30302|30279|2013-06-08 01:09:59|Paul Wilson|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|I guess you are right if you have blockage or a defect in an internal passage, that it might cause problems. And I agree with you that it is all about flow but I can't see how one part could get so hot and start boiling or cause vapors if the water was truly circulating properly on a good engine. If you run an engine without the thermostat, some engines will overheat. The bypass route to the rad becomes the easiest path for the cooling water and not enough goes into the engine. So it needs the restriction of the thermostat to keep the coolant running through the engine rather than circulating to the rad only. If you want to run without a thermostat, it is best to hammer out or cut out the center part of the thermostat, leaving the rest of the plate intact and then re-install. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 8/06/2013 2:37 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > It depends entirely on the pattern of the cooling passages. If the passages are one long thin passage that winds through the engine, then, yes, the pump is certainly going to keep fluid flowing through the entire thing. The problem with that design is, where the water goes first runs a lot cooler than where the water goes last. To keep the temperature more even, cooling passages in engines may be multi branched, then if there is a small impediment to flow on one branch, it might increase flow in the other branches. This is where you might get a vapour lock problem. > > I have run an old pressurized tractor engine as a zero pressure perculator with the thermostat removed, however it would heat up oddly when I was going up or down hills, and would some times get very hot from just a little chaff in the rad. When I shut off the engine I could hear parts of it perculate for longer than other parts. Fortunately it was not a high performance engine, so, it overheated slowly, it is right in front of me while I was using it, so, it could not exactly do anything sudden and unexpected. It is still running but it is a chunk of iron about 2 times the size of my boat engine and only 80% of the horsepower (less hp) than my boat engine. In a modern diesel of the same size, it might easily be a 45 or 60hp engine, and, would overheat far faster if I did not cool it properly. Also, if it were under the floorboards out of sight, I am not sure I would notice before it reach oil-stink temperature. > > Matt | 30303|30279|2013-06-08 07:57:28|Matt Malone|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|Its an old engine with no bypass, when I take the rad cap off (it is on loose), I can see the flow coming steaming out of the engine, very hot but not boiling, but, I can hear it bubbling inside the engine when it is off. I have run two old tractors at atmospheric pressure. I guess you will have to observe "percolating" (localized boiling) happen in an engine, they you may notice, it may be unevenly distributed. Perhaps you will come up with a different theory of why it is happening. I can't say I have ever taken an engine apart while it was on a low boil and observed what it is really doing inside. I am theorizing a localized vapour lock, that once it forms, it only gets worse. Shutting down the engine, letting it cool down, and going back to nearly the same work (taking it just a bit easier), the tractor does not do it again. To me that says a process that once it starts, it makes itself worse is happening. Yet, the process is completely reversible, just let the engine cool off. My apologies for misspelling percolating all this time... and, I (and a few others) may have made up a meaning for that word too, so, I will say I mean "localized boiling", like when a pot first starts to form bubbles at the bottom, but, they bubbles shrink and and disappear before reaching the surface. In a coffee percolator, this level of boiling is sufficient to form the pump to force slugs of water up through the center tube and filter down through the basket -- the filtering process is the true meaning of percolate according to the internet. Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2013 17:09:15 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI > > I guess you are right if you have blockage or a defect in an internal > passage, that it might cause problems. And I agree with you that it is > all about flow but I can't see how one part could get so hot and start > boiling or cause vapors if the water was truly circulating properly on a > good engine. > > If you run an engine without the thermostat, some engines will overheat. > The bypass route to the rad becomes the easiest path for the cooling > water and not enough goes into the engine. So it needs the restriction > of the thermostat to keep the coolant running through the engine rather > than circulating to the rad only. If you want to run without a > thermostat, it is best to hammer out or cut out the center part of the > thermostat, leaving the rest of the plate intact and then re-install. > > Paul > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. >�. > > On 8/06/2013 2:37 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > It depends entirely on the pattern of the cooling passages. If the passages are one long thin passage that winds through the engine, then, yes, the pump is certainly going to keep fluid flowing through the entire thing. The problem with that design is, where the water goes first runs a lot cooler than where the water goes last. To keep the temperature more even, cooling passages in engines may be multi branched, then if there is a small impediment to flow on one branch, it might increase flow in the other branches. This is where you might get a vapour lock problem. > > > > I have run an old pressurized tractor engine as a zero pressure perculator with the thermostat removed, however it would heat up oddly when I was going up or down hills, and would some times get very hot from just a little chaff in the rad. When I shut off the engine I could hear parts of it perculate for longer than other parts. Fortunately it was not a high performance engine, so, it overheated slowly, it is right in front of me while I was using it, so, it could not exactly do anything sudden and unexpected. It is still running but it is a chunk of iron about 2 times the size of my boat engine and only 80% of the horsepower (less hp) than my boat engine. In a modern diesel of the same size, it might easily be a 45 or 60hp engine, and, would overheat far faster if I did not cool it properly. Also, if it were under the floorboards out of sight, I am not sure I would notice before it reach oil-stink temperature. > > > > Matt > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30304|30263|2013-06-08 08:14:35|Mike|Re: Mig wire and gas|Like i said originally Mig welding can be as good as stick welding. But it is very easy to have a good looking bead and have very little or no penetration. Yes in a certified welders hands I think you would have no issues. But someone with no or very little experience with mig could be in for a headache. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:01 PM, "jhess314" wrote: > There is absolutely no reason why a MIG weld can't be as good as a stick weld. When I certified as a welder you had to weld two 3"x6"x3/8" plates together, creating one 6"x6" plate. The weld was then ground flush, and you cut out two 2"x6" "coupons", straddling the weld. The two coupons were then bent over a 2" diameter die, one bent with the root of the weld to the inside of the bend, and the other with the root of the weld to the outside of the bend (the position which showed a crack most often). You had to do this in all four positions: flat, horizontal, vertical, and overhead. To be certified with a pipe you had to do it with the axis of the pipe both vertical, horizontal, and at a 45-degree angle, with coupons cut from four locations. > > Generally speaking, I found it easier to weld with MIG, providing the base material was clean and the joint well-formed. No slag inclusions to worry about. But with rusty or dirty steel a deep-penetrating fast-freeze stick weld is better. And, of course, welding outdoors is easier with a slag-forming weld (stick or flux-core wire-feed). > > John > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > I built my boat using mig and have had no problems at with the welds. Used > > stick to tack everything together and then the mig to sew it all up. The > > boat has been used for 25 years now with no issues with the welds at all. > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 1:13 AM, ragnarpar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, now my antennae are up. > > > I have done a wee bit of mig, always "looked" solid and full?. > > > So, maybe a box to pressure test is a good idea. > > > I guess I better review the limitations, pros and cons of the mig process > > > a bit more. > > > I remember the ship yard using mig extensively on board, but that was > > > mostly deck and house work. Maybe I should contain the mig to deck and > > > cabin? > > > > > > Ok, thanks for the fear factor and heads up. > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote: > > > > > > > > You may want to build a small metal box and pressure test it. It maybe > > > 1'x1'x1'. It may change your mind about trying to weld up your boat with > > > mig. Making something that doesn't leak with mig can be done but its not as > > > easy as just running a bead. I'd hate for you to get most of your welding > > > done and then be chasing leaks everywhere. > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > On Jun 2, 2013, at 12:53 PM, Aaron wrote: > > > > > > > > > Make sure to clean the tacks. Grind starts and stops as the slag will > > > pop hole in the mig weld. > > > > > Straight Co2 is very prone to porosity. The pin holes will be found > > > with diesel or air testing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: ragnarpar > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:21 AM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mig wire and gas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok,thanks for the heads up. > > > > > I'll get a small ie 5-10 lb roll of the .035 for 1/8-1/8 and a bigger > > > 25lb roll of .045 for anything touching the 3/16. > > > > > I suspected 75/25, thanks for the confirmation. I did some mig a few > > > years back, had several mixes, 75/25 gave the best penetration . Looked too > > > good and seemed too easy to be true. Ahh, just another tool, propper place > > > and time, and frame of mind. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the > > > selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? > > > > > > Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? > > > > > > And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the > > > options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment > > > just setting there. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30305|30279|2013-06-08 10:17:57|Doug Jackson|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|Thanks for the discussion, it's very helpful.  I too have run tractors without a pressure cap and know it can lead to engine heating problems, but there is little choice when you have to run with duct tape on a cooling hose for a while. :)    We'll leave thermostat in place so the engine does not run too cold.  Then my thinking is to start with the system unpressurized.  Being that the engine will now live the rest of it's life at sea level, I think boiling will be avoided.  If not then a friend suggested switching to a 3 psi cap.  And if there is still boiling then we can go with an external keel cooler and back to 15 psi.  Thanks again. Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Matt Malone To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Saturday, June 8, 2013 6:57 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI Its an old engine with no bypass, when I take the rad cap off (it is on loose), I can see the flow coming steaming out of the engine, very hot but not boiling, but, I can hear it bubbling inside the engine when it is off.  I have run two old tractors at atmospheric pressure. I guess you will have to observe "percolating" (localized boiling) happen in an engine, they you may notice, it may be unevenly distributed.  Perhaps you will come up with a different theory of why it is happening.  I can't say I have ever taken an engine apart while it was on a low boil and observed what it is really doing inside.  I am theorizing a localized vapour lock, that once it forms, it only gets worse.  Shutting down the engine, letting it cool down, and going back to nearly the same work (taking it just a bit easier), the tractor does not do it again.  To me that says a process that once it starts, it makes itself worse is happening.  Yet, the process is completely reversible, just let the engine cool off.  My apologies for misspelling  percolating all this time...  and, I (and a few others) may have made up a meaning for that word too, so, I will say I mean "localized boiling", like when a pot first starts to form bubbles at the bottom, but, they bubbles shrink and and disappear before reaching the surface.  In a coffee percolator, this level of boiling is sufficient to form the pump to force slugs of water up through the center tube and filter down through the basket -- the filtering process is the true meaning of percolate according to the internet.  Matt > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2013 17:09:15 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI > > I guess you are right if you have blockage or a defect in an internal > passage, that it might cause problems. And I agree with you that it is > all about flow but I can't see how one part could get so hot and start > boiling or cause vapors if the water was truly circulating properly on a > good engine. > > If you run an engine without the thermostat, some engines will overheat. > The bypass route to the rad becomes the easiest path for the cooling > water and not enough goes into the engine. So it needs the restriction > of the thermostat to keep the coolant running through the engine rather > than circulating to the rad only. If you want to run without a > thermostat, it is best to hammer out or cut out the center part of the > thermostat, leaving the rest of the plate intact and then re-install. > > Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >  >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 8/06/2013 2:37 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > It depends entirely on the pattern of the cooling passages.  If the passages are one long thin passage that winds through the engine, then, yes, the pump is certainly going to keep fluid flowing through the entire thing.  The problem with that design is, where the water goes first runs a lot cooler than where the water goes last.  To keep the temperature more even, cooling passages in engines may be multi branched, then if there is a small impediment to flow on one branch, it might increase flow in the other branches.  This is where you might get a vapour lock problem. > > > > I have run an old pressurized tractor engine as a zero pressure perculator with the thermostat removed, however it would heat up oddly when I was going up or down hills, and would some times get very hot from just a little chaff in the rad.  When I shut off the engine I could hear parts of it perculate for longer than other parts.  Fortunately it was not a high performance engine, so, it overheated slowly, it is right in front of me while I was using it, so, it could not exactly do anything sudden and unexpected.  It is still running but it is a chunk of iron about 2 times the size of my boat engine and only 80% of the horsepower (less hp) than my boat engine.  In a modern diesel of the same size, it might easily be a 45 or 60hp engine, and, would overheat far faster if I did not cool it properly.  Also, if it were under the floorboards out of sight, I am not sure I would notice before it reach oil-stink temperature. > > > > Matt > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > >                         [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30306|30279|2013-06-08 10:44:47|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|Doug, Another option is to increase flow through the block by running the coolant pump at a higher speed by changing the associated belt(s) and pulleys. This will remove more energy from the block per given time unit and will assist with letting you keep your coolant systems at atmospheric pressure. R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Jackson Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 10:18 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI Thanks for the discussion, it's very helpful. I too have run tractors without a pressure cap and know it can lead to engine heating problems, but there is little choice when you have to run with duct tape on a cooling hose for a while. :) We'll leave thermostat in place so the engine does not run too cold. Then my thinking is to start with the system unpressurized. Being that the engine will now live the rest of it's life at sea level, I think boiling will be avoided. If not then a friend suggested switching to a 3 psi cap. And if there is still boiling then we can go with an external keel cooler and back to 15 psi. Thanks again. Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30307|30279|2013-06-08 16:30:57|ckhaun@juno.com|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|Doug, Have you looked into running Evans coolant? It is a coolant designed specifically for zero pressure systems. Its boiling point is so much higher than most coolants that it alleviates the issues that steam pockets cause (thus requiring pressurization). I believe it is a food grade glycol with a few additives to make it less viscous. May not be the solution, but I thought it worth considering. Corey ____________________________________________________________ BlackBerry® 10 Find out more about the new BlackBerry 10 smartphone. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/51b3945e6c85d145e574dst02vuc| 30308|30279|2013-06-08 16:54:38|brentswain38|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|With skeg cooling, you need a thermostat, to keep it from runing too cool. Mine was running too cool, so I changed the thermostat, and she began running much warmer. I put a bit of water soluable machine oil in my coolant, when frends found it eliminated corrosion in the system. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > So did you remove the thermostat?   Our Cummins 5.9 is suppose to run at 185 to 195 F  (water boils at 212) but the manual is really clear about needing a 15psi cap.  Oh! you know, maybe that for driving in the mountains?    >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: wild_explorer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 7:40 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI > > > >   > In cars, 15 psi in cooling system is to increase boiling point of the coolant by about 45F/25C. So, it is more applicable to engines with air-cooled radiators. > > For skeg/keel cooling, you might be able to afford 0 psi - coolant should not get close to boiling point under normal conditions. Similar to if you had big pool for coolant, and dump warm coolant from the engine to one side and take cool coolant into the engine from opposite side. There is no pressure at intake, only through the engine, and there is an expansion vessel with some air on top of it - it is not hydraulically closed circuit. Compare it with brakes which have air in brake's line ;) > > Another story if you need to keep engine temperature near boiling point of the coolant. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30309|30279|2013-06-08 17:09:04|brentswain38|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|15 psi, times the number of inches in a skeg, is thousands of pounds pressure overall. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Thanks.  That last paragraph is exactly what I don't want. :)   Our engine is a Cummins 5.9 out of a school bus and there is no-way the skeg will take 15 psi.   So I may need an heat exchanger and a low pressure pump.  I may be able to run it with no-psi on the coolant but I will not know until I can put load on it.   ...or I find someone that is running a 5.9 at 1atm.  >   > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Matt Malone > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 7:46 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI > > > The marine engines I have seen (open-loop fresh water cooled) run cooler than car and truck engines, so they do not need the PSI to keep the coolant from boiling.  Also, boiling would be undesirable as the engine would very quickly build up minerals inside.  Simply heating water can make it build up minerals too, but slower.  The pump that draws in water from outside the boat is usually a small, low pressure pump, and the exit from the engine is not that restricted, so, there is no way, in its ordinary life, most fresh water cooled engine would ever reach 15psi.  > > I had always envisioned the cooling water circuit would be, out of the engine, into a coil of tube in a tank (my hot water tank), then to a 4-way valve or 2 single valves to either force the water into, or bypass, a loop of tubing all around the interior of the boat -- to provide heating in chilly weather, and then to the skeg, and then to a vented overflow tank high on a bulkhead on the center line, where water would feed by gravity back to the engine intake pump.  I would keep an eye on the level in the overflow tank > > I have seen truck-sized diesel generators in remote locations circulate their coolant through rads to provide building heating. > > If your engine was a sealed, pressurized coolant system, like a re-purposed vehicle engine, or anything that had a pressure-relief rad cap (15psi), then, make sure the entire system can take the pressure, the engine is designed to run at pressure and will likely percolate without it.  That would be bad.  Local vapour locks would form easily and local overheating can occur.  One might burn out one area of the engine.  > > Matt >   > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 22:11:53 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > >     >       >       >       I just use a push on plastic cap on my header tank and it hasn't  blown off yet. Maybe 15 psi in the engine but almost zero on the skeg or outside the engine. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > > > Engine coolant systems run over 15 psi.  Is something done to reduce the pressure when using a skeg cooler or is the skeg built that strong?  > > >  > > > Thanks > > > Doug > > > SVSeeker.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > >     >     > >     >     > > > > > > >                           > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30310|30279|2013-06-08 17:20:24|brentswain38|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|Scale depends on where you get your water. My father, a steam engineer all his life, said in Saskatchewan scale buildup was always a problem, but in BC the opposite was the case . The water was too soft and mineral free, so they had to add material to stop it from eroding pipes. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I am sure there are quite a few different ways to do it. Here is how > mine is done. > > I still have the thermostat. The coolant circulates in the closed loop > of the engine, gets to temperature and then when the thermostat opens > the coolant from the keel cooler starts to come in to the engine. I use > the centrifugal pump that came with the engine. It is the standard > centrifugal pump that came with the engine like a water pump on a car > engine. The coolant from the skeg runs through fairly large hoses (1 > inch heater hose) since a centrifugal pump is low pressure high volume. > The cold coolant coming from the skeg runs through the exhaust manifold > first before hitting the engine. I was told to do it this way by an old > timer. He said it preheated the water a bit which was easier on the > engine. I thought the exhaust manifold might get too hot before the > coolant circulation kicked in but it has been no problem. I am not sure > if I was using an impeller pump like a Jabsco if my setup would need to > be any different. > > The engine comes up to temp as quick as any car engine and never > overheats or boils. You can get airlocks if you ever let the coolant > get low or on first fill-up but if you crack a line at any high point > and keep the header tank topped up, you never have a problem after it is > first set up. As long as you use anti-freeze you shouldn't get any scale. > > I think they are telling you to use the thermostat because you get > higher boiling point and better cooling in the radiator. With the cool > sea water temp of the keel cooler, the boiling point should never get > too high, even in the block, so you don't need the high pressure. > > Cheers, Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > On 8/06/2013 1:03 p.m., Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > So did you remove the thermostat? Our Cummins 5.9 is suppose to run > > at 185 to 195 F (water boils at 212) but the manual is really clear > > about needing a 15psi cap. Oh! you know, maybe that for driving in > > the mountains? > > > > Doug > > SVSeeker.com > > > | 30311|30263|2013-06-08 17:25:38|brentswain38|Re: Mig wire and gas|Someone with very little expereince is far less likely to screw up a stick weld, compared to a mig weld. With stick you know what you have, not always the case with a mig weld. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote: > > Like i said originally Mig welding can be as good as stick welding. > But it is very easy to have a good looking bead and have very little or no penetration. Yes in a certified welders hands I think you would have no issues. > But someone with no or very little experience with mig could be in for a headache. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:01 PM, "jhess314" wrote: > > > There is absolutely no reason why a MIG weld can't be as good as a stick weld. When I certified as a welder you had to weld two 3"x6"x3/8" plates together, creating one 6"x6" plate. The weld was then ground flush, and you cut out two 2"x6" "coupons", straddling the weld. The two coupons were then bent over a 2" diameter die, one bent with the root of the weld to the inside of the bend, and the other with the root of the weld to the outside of the bend (the position which showed a crack most often). You had to do this in all four positions: flat, horizontal, vertical, and overhead. To be certified with a pipe you had to do it with the axis of the pipe both vertical, horizontal, and at a 45-degree angle, with coupons cut from four locations. > > > > Generally speaking, I found it easier to weld with MIG, providing the base material was clean and the joint well-formed. No slag inclusions to worry about. But with rusty or dirty steel a deep-penetrating fast-freeze stick weld is better. And, of course, welding outdoors is easier with a slag-forming weld (stick or flux-core wire-feed). > > > > John > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > I built my boat using mig and have had no problems at with the welds. Used > > > stick to tack everything together and then the mig to sew it all up. The > > > boat has been used for 25 years now with no issues with the welds at all. > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 1:13 AM, ragnarpar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, now my antennae are up. > > > > I have done a wee bit of mig, always "looked" solid and full?. > > > > So, maybe a box to pressure test is a good idea. > > > > I guess I better review the limitations, pros and cons of the mig process > > > > a bit more. > > > > I remember the ship yard using mig extensively on board, but that was > > > > mostly deck and house work. Maybe I should contain the mig to deck and > > > > cabin? > > > > > > > > Ok, thanks for the fear factor and heads up. > > > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote: > > > > > > > > > > You may want to build a small metal box and pressure test it. It maybe > > > > 1'x1'x1'. It may change your mind about trying to weld up your boat with > > > > mig. Making something that doesn't leak with mig can be done but its not as > > > > easy as just running a bead. I'd hate for you to get most of your welding > > > > done and then be chasing leaks everywhere. > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 2, 2013, at 12:53 PM, Aaron wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Make sure to clean the tacks. Grind starts and stops as the slag will > > > > pop hole in the mig weld. > > > > > > Straight Co2 is very prone to porosity. The pin holes will be found > > > > with diesel or air testing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: ragnarpar > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:21 AM > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mig wire and gas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok,thanks for the heads up. > > > > > > I'll get a small ie 5-10 lb roll of the .035 for 1/8-1/8 and a bigger > > > > 25lb roll of .045 for anything touching the 3/16. > > > > > > I suspected 75/25, thanks for the confirmation. I did some mig a few > > > > years back, had several mixes, 75/25 gave the best penetration . Looked too > > > > good and seemed too easy to be true. Ahh, just another tool, propper place > > > > and time, and frame of mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, so I have acquired a mig machine, and was wondering if the > > > > selection of 70-6 wire is best or would the 80 series be mo beta? > > > > > > > Also, will the 75/25 mix be ok or??? > > > > > > > And, is .035 suitable for most of the work on the 1/8 and3/16??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeh, ok, I've been over the pros and cons, and am looking at the > > > > options for filling after tack up with both the 6010/6011 and 7024. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, any that's would be appreciated, I hate to see the equipment > > > > just setting there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Par > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30312|30279|2013-06-08 22:27:24|Doug Jackson|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|Thanks cool!   Thanks for the info.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: "ckhaun@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 8, 2013 3:29 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI   Doug, Have you looked into running Evans coolant? It is a coolant designed specifically for zero pressure systems. Its boiling point is so much higher than most coolants that it alleviates the issues that steam pockets cause (thus requiring pressurization). I believe it is a food grade glycol with a few additives to make it less viscous. May not be the solution, but I thought it worth considering. Corey __________________________________________________________ BlackBerry® 10 Find out more about the new BlackBerry 10 smartphone. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/51b3945e6c85d145e574dst02vuc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30313|30279|2013-06-08 22:27:59|Doug Jackson|Re: Skeg Cooling PSI|Right, and easy to do too.  Thanks Jay.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Jay K. Jeffries To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 8, 2013 9:44 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI   Doug, Another option is to increase flow through the block by running the coolant pump at a higher speed by changing the associated belt(s) and pulleys. This will remove more energy from the block per given time unit and will assist with letting you keep your coolant systems at atmospheric pressure. R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Jackson Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 10:18 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg Cooling PSI Thanks for the discussion, it's very helpful. I too have run tractors without a pressure cap and know it can lead to engine heating problems, but there is little choice when you have to run with duct tape on a cooling hose for a while. :) We'll leave thermostat in place so the engine does not run too cold. Then my thinking is to start with the system unpressurized. Being that the engine will now live the rest of it's life at sea level, I think boiling will be avoided. If not then a friend suggested switching to a 3 psi cap. And if there is still boiling then we can go with an external keel cooler and back to 15 psi. Thanks again. Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30314|30314|2013-06-10 03:33:19|Denis Buggy|cummins engine|RE MATT MALONE 5.9 SCHOOL BUS ENGINE . Matt Cummins is a great engine however they have some faults . there is a bolt on a bracket behind the injector pump which looks innocent until it loosens or some lazy bastard with big fingers says fuck Cummins and all belonging to them I cannot fit this and nobody will notice ---- YOU WILL NOTICE !!! this bracket stops the stupid stupid alumimum timing plate from vibrating and cracking which as you all know aluminium does not do vibrating very well its chalky make up simply cannot dance a step and it collapses quite quickly -- then the fun begins as the camshaft is one piece = gear and shaft are one--- usually somebody says take out the engine turn it upside down and then the cam followers will fall out of the way and you can then remove the camshaft and the timing plate and replace --- a quick solution is to pull up the cam follower and with a strong cable tie pulled tight on the cam follower keeping it out of the way of the camshaft you can now withdraw same without taking out the engine as directed by Cummins -- it never ceases to amaze me how much money engineers can earn for doing something badly a unpaid illiterate mechanic in Africa or India could do very well . KEEP AN EYE ON AND RE FIT THIS BRACKET USING HIGH TENSILE BOLTS WITH LOCKTITE from much poorer and wiser .. denis buggy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30315|30314|2013-06-10 10:12:25|Tom Pee|Re: cummins engine|5.9's make about 200hp, way more than needed for a 36' sailboat. ________________________________ From: Denis Buggy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 3:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] cummins engine   RE MATT MALONE 5.9 SCHOOL BUS ENGINE . Matt Cummins is a great engine however they have some faults . there is a bolt on a bracket behind the injector pump which looks innocent until it loosens or some lazy bastard with big fingers says fuck Cummins and all belonging to them I cannot fit this and nobody will notice ---- YOU WILL NOTICE !!! this bracket stops the stupid stupid alumimum timing plate from vibrating and cracking which as you all know aluminium does not do vibrating very well its chalky make up simply cannot dance a step and it collapses quite quickly -- then the fun begins as the camshaft is one piece = gear and shaft are one--- usually somebody says take out the engine turn it upside down and then the cam followers will fall out of the way and you can then remove the camshaft and the timing plate and replace --- a quick solution is to pull up the cam follower and with a strong cable tie pulled tight on the cam follower keeping it out of the way of the camshaft you can now withdraw same without taking out the engine as directed by Cummins -- it never ceases to amaze me how much money engineers can earn for doing something badly a unpaid illiterate mechanic in Africa or India could do very well . KEEP AN EYE ON AND RE FIT THIS BRACKET USING HIGH TENSILE BOLTS WITH LOCKTITE from much poorer and wiser .. denis buggy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30316|30314|2013-06-10 11:22:54|william munger|Re: cummins engine|Pay attention guys, It is Doug that was saying he is using the school bus engine, and he is building a 74' steel boat. not at 36. :-) > 5.9's make about 200hp, way more than needed for a 36' sailboat. > > ________________________________ > From: Denis Buggy > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 3:33 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] cummins engine > > > > > RE MATT MALONE 5.9 SCHOOL BUS ENGINE . > Matt > Cummins is a great engine however they have some faults . > there is a bolt on a bracket behind the injector pump which looks > innocent until it loosens or some lazy bastard with big fingers says > fuck Cummins and all belonging to them I cannot fit this and nobody > will notice ---- YOU WILL NOTICE !!! > this bracket stops the stupid stupid alumimum timing plate from > vibrating and cracking which as you all know aluminium does not do > vibrating very well its chalky make up simply cannot dance a step and > it collapses quite quickly -- then the fun begins as the camshaft is > one piece = gear and shaft are one--- usually somebody says take out > the engine turn it upside down and then the cam followers will fall > out of the way and you can then remove the camshaft and the timing > plate and replace --- a quick solution is to pull up the cam follower > and with a strong cable tie pulled tight on the cam follower keeping > it out of the way of the camshaft you can now withdraw same without > taking out the engine as directed by Cummins -- it never ceases to > amaze me how much money engineers can earn for doing something badly a > unpaid illiterate mechanic in Africa or India could do very well . > KEEP AN EYE ON AND RE FIT THIS BRACKET USING HIGH TENSILE BOLTS WITH > LOCKTITE from much poorer and wiser .. denis buggy > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30317|30314|2013-06-10 12:10:57|James Pronk|Re: cummins engine|Maybe he wants to go bass fishing!? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30318|30314|2013-06-11 10:54:13|Denis Buggy|Re: cummins engine|early 5.9 Cummins engines were 130 bhp --126 bhp . and the Cummins L10 engine = 300bhp + has the same mad aluminium timing plate just in case any fishermen/ truckers are reading this. a 74 ft boat would be underpowered in a heavy sea with only one of these L10s. a 5.9 would be possibly unwise to get you off a lee shore in a storm regards. denis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30319|30314|2013-06-11 11:11:54|Xcode.fi 6-axis Cnc|Re: cummins engine|I think 300 hp is much more than needed. On a friends 80 ft, 70 tons disp craft 150 hp is very much overpowered. On 11.6.2013, at 4.54 ip., "Denis Buggy" wrote: > early 5.9 Cummins engines were 130 bhp --126 bhp . > and the Cummins L10 engine = 300bhp + has the same mad aluminium timing plate just in case any fishermen/ truckers are reading this. > a 74 ft boat would be underpowered in a heavy sea with only one of these L10s. > a 5.9 would be possibly unwise to get you off a lee shore in a storm regards. denis > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30320|30314|2013-06-11 20:34:20|Doug Jackson|Re: cummins engine|Hi,  I'm the school bus engine guy, and that's for the information about the 5.9 That bolt you're describing.  Does it also secure the injector pump to the engine?   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Denis Buggy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 2:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] cummins engine   RE MATT MALONE 5.9 SCHOOL BUS ENGINE . Matt Cummins is a great engine however they have some faults . there is a bolt on a bracket behind the injector pump which looks innocent until it loosens or some lazy bastard with big fingers says fuck Cummins and all belonging to them I cannot fit this and nobody will notice ---- YOU WILL NOTICE !!! this bracket stops the stupid stupid alumimum timing plate from vibrating and cracking which as you all know aluminium does not do vibrating very well its chalky make up simply cannot dance a step and it collapses quite quickly -- then the fun begins as the camshaft is one piece = gear and shaft are one--- usually somebody says take out the engine turn it upside down and then the cam followers will fall out of the way and you can then remove the camshaft and the timing plate and replace --- a quick solution is to pull up the cam follower and with a strong cable tie pulled tight on the cam follower keeping it out of the way of the camshaft you can now withdraw same without taking out the engine as directed by Cummins -- it never ceases to amaze me how much money engineers can earn for doing something badly a unpaid illiterate mechanic in Africa or India could do very well . KEEP AN EYE ON AND RE FIT THIS BRACKET USING HIGH TENSILE BOLTS WITH LOCKTITE from much poorer and wiser .. denis buggy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30321|30321|2013-06-12 02:28:53|akenai|VHF Radio|Anyone have a best choice for marine radios? Aaron| 30322|30321|2013-06-12 16:09:27|Paul Wilson|Re: VHF Radio|Icom and Standard Horizon are good brands. Most vhfs now are good quality and reliable. If you are buying a new radio and going offshore, consider spending a little bit more and get the Standard Horizon GX2150. It has a built in AIS receiver and displays ships on the small screen. It will interface to other displays and is loaded with features. It is a very cheap way to go if you want AIS and has low power draw. Works great. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 12/06/2013 6:28 p.m., akenai wrote: > > Anyone have a best choice for marine radios? > Aaron > > | 30323|30321|2013-06-12 16:14:56|x|Re: VHF Radio|I like ICOM, mostly out of habit. WEST MARINE, is best on price (Hawaii). But, had bad service life from them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai" wrote: > > Anyone have a best choice for marine radios? > Aaron > | 30324|30321|2013-06-12 16:19:20|x|Re: VHF Radio|I had two Standard Horizons burn out on me. Someone told me later they had a run of bad power supplies... This was in the 80' 90'. Never purchased again, because of that fear. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Icom and Standard Horizon are good brands. Most vhfs now are good > quality and reliable. If you are buying a new radio and going offshore, > consider spending a little bit more and get the Standard Horizon GX2150. > It has a built in AIS receiver and displays ships on the small screen. > It will interface to other displays and is loaded with features. > > It is a very cheap way to go if you want AIS and has low power draw. > Works great. > > Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 12/06/2013 6:28 p.m., akenai wrote: > > > > Anyone have a best choice for marine radios? > > Aaron > > > > > | 30325|30321|2013-06-13 08:11:36|scott|Re: VHF Radio|I have had good luck with Icom, uniden and standard horizon on the radios I have owned. If purchasing a new one I would get the above referenced radio with integrated AIS. For very little extra you get a a hell of a deal on radio and ais. The Uniden I currently have uses the wireless remote handsets WHAM4. They are crap with lousy volume on the remotes and absolutely pitiful battery life. Batteries die in a couple years also even with not much use. The main radio unit is good though with the included wired handset. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > I had two Standard Horizons burn out on me. Someone told me later they had a run of bad power supplies... > > This was in the 80' 90'. Never purchased again, because of that fear. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Icom and Standard Horizon are good brands. Most vhfs now are good > > quality and reliable. If you are buying a new radio and going offshore, > > consider spending a little bit more and get the Standard Horizon GX2150. > > It has a built in AIS receiver and displays ships on the small screen. > > It will interface to other displays and is loaded with features. > > > > It is a very cheap way to go if you want AIS and has low power draw. > > Works great. > > > > Paul > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > > > On 12/06/2013 6:28 p.m., akenai wrote: > > > > > > Anyone have a best choice for marine radios? > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > | 30326|30314|2013-06-14 06:06:45|Denis Buggy|Re: cummins engine|DOUG RE YOUR REQUEST -- THE BRACKET IS MOUNTED ON THE BLOCK TO THE REAR OF THE ROTARY INJECTOR PUMP WHICH IN A DENNIS DART BUS IS IN THE REAR OF THE BUS AND HAS THE CHASSIS RAIL BESIDE THE INJECTOR PUMP WHICH MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE AND WORK ON -- THE INJECTOR PUMP IS OUT ON A LIMB AT THE FURTHEST POINT FROM THE ENGINE ON THE TIMING PLATE WHICH IS MADE OF ONE PIECE SLIM ALUMINIUM WHEN IT CRACKS THE PUMP AND ALL GO NORTH AWAY FROM THE ENGINE - THE BRACKET KEEPS THIS PLATE QUIET . RE ENGINE POWER I AM GOING ON WHAT IRISH FISHERMEN GENERALLY FIT IN BOATS OF THIS SIZE - THE GENERATOR--ICE MAKER WOULD BE 5.9 NOT THE MAIN ENGINE FOR 80 FT BOAT WHICH WOULD BE NEARER TO 1000 BHP THAN NOT -- GETTING HOME IN THE WILD ATLANTIC OF THE WEST OF IRELAND IS AN INTERESTING EXPERIENCE AT TIMES AND THE WAVES OFF THE CLIFFS OF MOHER ARE NOW RIVALLING HAWAII FOR SURFERS . REGARDS DENIS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30327|30314|2013-06-14 08:47:54|James Pronk|Re: cummins engine/Irish surfing!|I was there 22 years ago in January and went surfing for the first time. What a wild place! I can see that you would need that much hp in some of those conditions. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30328|30314|2013-06-14 09:02:07|Doug Jackson|Re: cummins engine|Thanks Denis,   I understand what you're talking about now.  I'll keep an eye on it.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Denis Buggy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 5:06 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: cummins engine   DOUG RE YOUR REQUEST -- THE BRACKET IS MOUNTED ON THE BLOCK TO THE REAR OF THE ROTARY INJECTOR PUMP WHICH IN A DENNIS DART BUS IS IN THE REAR OF THE BUS AND HAS THE CHASSIS RAIL BESIDE THE INJECTOR PUMP WHICH MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE AND WORK ON -- THE INJECTOR PUMP IS OUT ON A LIMB AT THE FURTHEST POINT FROM THE ENGINE ON THE TIMING PLATE WHICH IS MADE OF ONE PIECE SLIM ALUMINIUM WHEN IT CRACKS THE PUMP AND ALL GO NORTH AWAY FROM THE ENGINE - THE BRACKET KEEPS THIS PLATE QUIET . RE ENGINE POWER I AM GOING ON WHAT IRISH FISHERMEN GENERALLY FIT IN BOATS OF THIS SIZE - THE GENERATOR--ICE MAKER WOULD BE 5.9 NOT THE MAIN ENGINE FOR 80 FT BOAT WHICH WOULD BE NEARER TO 1000 BHP THAN NOT -- GETTING HOME IN THE WILD ATLANTIC OF THE WEST OF IRELAND IS AN INTERESTING EXPERIENCE AT TIMES AND THE WAVES OFF THE CLIFFS OF MOHER ARE NOW RIVALLING HAWAII FOR SURFERS . REGARDS DENIS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30329|30321|2013-06-14 19:59:13|brentswain38|Re: VHF Radio|Back in the 80s a radio guy told me of a half dozen VHF radios with prices ranging from cheap to super expensive, under different brands. He said the guts were identical, made by the same company in China with different cases and radically different price tags. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > I had two Standard Horizons burn out on me. Someone told me later they had a run of bad power supplies... > > This was in the 80' 90'. Never purchased again, because of that fear. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Icom and Standard Horizon are good brands. Most vhfs now are good > > quality and reliable. If you are buying a new radio and going offshore, > > consider spending a little bit more and get the Standard Horizon GX2150. > > It has a built in AIS receiver and displays ships on the small screen. > > It will interface to other displays and is loaded with features. > > > > It is a very cheap way to go if you want AIS and has low power draw. > > Works great. > > > > Paul > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > > > On 12/06/2013 6:28 p.m., akenai wrote: > > > > > > Anyone have a best choice for marine radios? > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > | 30330|30321|2013-06-14 23:18:33|Aaron|VHF Radio|Thanks everyone I am going with the Standard Horizon GX1250. More money than some and less than others but as long as it functions when needed. Aaron From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 3:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: VHF Radio   Back in the 80s a radio guy told me of a half dozen VHF radios with prices ranging from cheap to super expensive, under different brands. He said the guts were identical, made by the same company in China with different cases and radically different price tags. --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, "x" wrote: > > I had two Standard Horizons burn out on me. Someone told me later they had a run of bad power supplies... > > This was in the 80' 90'. Never purchased again, because of that fear. > > > --- In mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Icom and Standard Horizon are good brands. Most vhfs now are good > > quality and reliable. If you are buying a new radio and going offshore, > > consider spending a little bit more and get the Standard Horizon GX2150. > > It has a built in AIS receiver and displays ships on the small screen. > > It will interface to other displays and is loaded with features. > > > > It is a very cheap way to go if you want AIS and has low power draw. > > Works great. > > > > Paul > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. > > > > On 12/06/2013 6:28 p.m., akenai wrote: > > > > > > Anyone have a best choice for marine radios? > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30332|30332|2013-06-16 21:31:10|x|Surfing from Swain 36|We are keeping (4) surfboards on our Swain 36'. One surfboard is a 9'6" . There is plenty of room below for large boards, which surprised me! The quiver was moved to the boat during the summer surf season. Last swell:Ala Wai Hbr. #1 Ala Wai Hbr. #2 Ala Wai Hbr. #3 Sandy's Beach Today;Swain 36 after today's session [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30333|30333|2013-06-19 18:51:02|inter4905|keel welding repairs|Hi, There is some rust inside my keel at the same level of the lead. Is it possible to weld a plate outside the boat, between 1/2 in to 1 in under the lead level, on top of the existing plate if I cut that plate 1 in over lead level to stay isolated from the lead when welding. Is it the right procedure? Has it been done before? ( whitout any injuries) Thanks, Martin.| 30334|30333|2013-06-20 14:46:54|brentswain38|Re: keel welding repairs|While your question is a bit garbled I see no problem doing that. You cna check the thickness of the plate anywhere by giving it a good whack with a sledgehammer and a centre punch.If it doesnt give , you have plenty of thicknes there. Is your ballast lead? Is it sealed? You can weld an SS nut on the cap and drill a hole in it, then pour in a bit of oil to eliminate any further corrosion in the ballast. Then put an SS bolt in the nut to reseal it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Hi, > > There is some rust inside my keel at the same level of the lead. Is it possible to weld a plate outside the boat, between 1/2 in to 1 in under the lead level, on top of the existing plate if I cut that plate 1 in over lead level to stay isolated from the lead when welding. Is it the right procedure? Has it been done before? ( whitout any injuries) > > Thanks, Martin. > | 30335|30333|2013-06-20 15:10:27|martin demers|Re: keel welding repairs|Hi Brent, Yes my ballast is lead and no, it is not sealed, what I meant is that there is some rust inside the hull facing the top of the keel lead. I read that you cannot weld steel if there is lead behind it. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 18:46:51 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: keel welding repairs While your question is a bit garbled I see no problem doing that. You cna check the thickness of the plate anywhere by giving it a good whack with a sledgehammer and a centre punch.If it doesnt give , you have plenty of thicknes there. Is your ballast lead? Is it sealed? You can weld an SS nut on the cap and drill a hole in it, then pour in a bit of oil to eliminate any further corrosion in the ballast. Then put an SS bolt in the nut to reseal it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Hi, > > There is some rust inside my keel at the same level of the lead. Is it possible to weld a plate outside the boat, between 1/2 in to 1 in under the lead level, on top of the existing plate if I cut that plate 1 in over lead level to stay isolated from the lead when welding. Is it the right procedure? Has it been done before? ( whitout any injuries) > > Thanks, Martin. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30336|30333|2013-06-20 19:44:33|x|Re: keel welding repairs|Please post photos of the affected area? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Yes my ballast is lead and no, it is not sealed, > what I meant is that there is some rust inside the hull facing the top of the keel lead. > I read that you cannot weld steel if there is lead behind it. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 18:46:51 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: keel welding repairs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While your question is a bit garbled I see no problem doing that. You cna check the thickness of the plate anywhere by giving it a good whack > > with a sledgehammer and a centre punch.If it doesnt give , you have plenty of thicknes there. Is your ballast lead? Is it sealed? You can weld an SS nut on the cap and drill a hole in it, then pour in a bit of oil to eliminate any further corrosion in the ballast. Then put an SS bolt in the nut to reseal it. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > There is some rust inside my keel at the same level of the lead. Is it possible to weld a plate outside the boat, between 1/2 in to 1 in under the lead level, on top of the existing plate if I cut that plate 1 in over lead level to stay isolated from the lead when welding. Is it the right procedure? Has it been done before? ( whitout any injuries) > > > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30337|30333|2013-06-21 14:40:52|brentswain38|Re: keel welding repairs|If you keep your heat down you should have no problem welding, unless the plate is super thin. For welding a cap on just shim the cap a half inch above the lead. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Yes my ballast is lead and no, it is not sealed, > what I meant is that there is some rust inside the hull facing the top of the keel lead. > I read that you cannot weld steel if there is lead behind it. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 18:46:51 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: keel welding repairs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While your question is a bit garbled I see no problem doing that. You cna check the thickness of the plate anywhere by giving it a good whack > > with a sledgehammer and a centre punch.If it doesnt give , you have plenty of thicknes there. Is your ballast lead? Is it sealed? You can weld an SS nut on the cap and drill a hole in it, then pour in a bit of oil to eliminate any further corrosion in the ballast. Then put an SS bolt in the nut to reseal it. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > There is some rust inside my keel at the same level of the lead. Is it possible to weld a plate outside the boat, between 1/2 in to 1 in under the lead level, on top of the existing plate if I cut that plate 1 in over lead level to stay isolated from the lead when welding. Is it the right procedure? Has it been done before? ( whitout any injuries) > > > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30338|30333|2013-06-21 15:05:35|martin demers|Re: keel welding repairs|Hi Brent, I'll try to go low enough to have a good thickness. Thank, Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 18:40:49 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: keel welding repairs If you keep your heat down you should have no problem welding, unless the plate is super thin. For welding a cap on just shim the cap a half inch above the lead. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Yes my ballast is lead and no, it is not sealed, > what I meant is that there is some rust inside the hull facing the top of the keel lead. > I read that you cannot weld steel if there is lead behind it. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 18:46:51 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: keel welding repairs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While your question is a bit garbled I see no problem doing that. You cna check the thickness of the plate anywhere by giving it a good whack > > with a sledgehammer and a centre punch.If it doesnt give , you have plenty of thicknes there. Is your ballast lead? Is it sealed? You can weld an SS nut on the cap and drill a hole in it, then pour in a bit of oil to eliminate any further corrosion in the ballast. Then put an SS bolt in the nut to reseal it. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > There is some rust inside my keel at the same level of the lead. Is it possible to weld a plate outside the boat, between 1/2 in to 1 in under the lead level, on top of the existing plate if I cut that plate 1 in over lead level to stay isolated from the lead when welding. Is it the right procedure? Has it been done before? ( whitout any injuries) > > > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30339|30339|2013-06-26 17:43:04|brentswain38|Aluminium lids on steel boats|I just helped replace the plywood cabin top of a Colvin Gazzele with a 3/16th aluminium sheet, by bolting it to the steel flange, along the top of the cabin side, saving around 500 lbs over what a 1/8th inch steel cabintop would weigh. It is one way to stop such a tender hull shape from becoming top heavy. Unlike plywood you can insulate aluminiumn without the fear of it causing dry rot . It felt considerably lighter than the plywood and fibreglass it replaced.| 30340|30339|2013-06-27 02:58:26|Adam Thorp|Re: Aluminium lids on steel boats|Do you take any measures to prevent galvanic corrosion between the aluminum sheet and steel flange? On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 2:43 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > ** > > > I just helped replace the plywood cabin top of a Colvin Gazzele with a > 3/16th aluminium sheet, by bolting it to the steel flange, along the top of > the cabin side, saving around 500 lbs over what a 1/8th inch steel cabintop > would weigh. It is one way to stop such a tender hull shape from becoming > top heavy. Unlike plywood you can insulate aluminiumn without the fear of > it causing dry rot . It felt considerably lighter than the plywood and > fibreglass it replaced. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30341|30339|2013-06-27 16:52:39|brentswain38|Re: Aluminium lids on steel boats|Just lots of urethane beding. Some use explosive joined strips with aluminium on one side and steel onthe other with no corrosion problems. That high up, it is not sitting in salt water for long periods. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Adam Thorp wrote: > > Do you take any measures to prevent galvanic corrosion between the aluminum > sheet and steel flange? > > > On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 2:43 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I just helped replace the plywood cabin top of a Colvin Gazzele with a > > 3/16th aluminium sheet, by bolting it to the steel flange, along the top of > > the cabin side, saving around 500 lbs over what a 1/8th inch steel cabintop > > would weigh. It is one way to stop such a tender hull shape from becoming > > top heavy. Unlike plywood you can insulate aluminiumn without the fear of > > it causing dry rot . It felt considerably lighter than the plywood and > > fibreglass it replaced. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30342|30342|2013-07-04 16:24:13|inter4905|solid lifeline height|Hi Brent, What height do you suggest for solid lifeline on a 37 ft sailboat? Thanks Martin| 30343|30342|2013-07-04 18:22:37|wild_explorer|Re: solid lifeline height|I was thinking about the same and would like to have Brent's opinion as well. So far, I think that upper rail from the deck level should be slightly under the elbow (about 36" high?). This way, you will not hit the rail by your elbow when moving along the rail and able to grab the rail comfortably (naturally bent arm position?). Some info I found: - A person's center of mass is slightly below his/her belly button, which is nearly the geometric center of a person. - Males and females have different centers of mass- females' centers of mass are lower than those of males. - The average ratio of center of mass to height in females is approximately 0.543 and the average ratio of center of mass to height in males is approximately 0.560. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > What height do you suggest for solid lifeline on a 37 ft sailboat? > > Thanks Martin > | 30344|30342|2013-07-04 18:38:35|Paul Wilson|Re: solid lifeline height|36 inches is normal for handrails on balconies or walkways ashore but might look funny or high on a boat....it is not that I am telling you not to do it, just that it might look funny. Another thing to consider is a higher rail will also interfere with the headsails a bit more. The normal height is about 30 inches on boats and I found it works well for me. If it is very rough weather, I am normally harnessed in and walk squatted down low when going up and down the decks while holding the handrail and the cabin top hand rail at the same time. Some people like to put up an extra temporary line about shoulder high from the shrouds back to the rear pulpit when offshore. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 5/07/2013 10:22 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > I was thinking about the same and would like to have Brent's opinion > as well. > > So far, I think that upper rail from the deck level should be slightly > under the elbow (about 36" high?). This way, you will not hit the rail > by your elbow when moving along the rail and able to grab the rail > comfortably (naturally bent arm position?). > > Some info I found: > > - A person's center of mass is slightly below his/her belly button, > which is nearly the geometric center of a person. > - Males and females have different centers of mass- females' centers > of mass are lower than those of males. > - The average ratio of center of mass to height in females is > approximately 0.543 and the average ratio of center of mass to height > in males is approximately 0.560. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > What height do you suggest for solid lifeline on a 37 ft sailboat? > > > > Thanks Martin > > > > | 30345|30342|2013-07-05 10:33:50|haidan|Re: solid lifeline height|I second that, I've seen lifelines on a BS36 just a couple inches higher than the ones on my own and they just look a little funny the proportions aren't quiet right, shorter doesn't look so funny but doesn't hold on the boat as well either. don't know how tall they are right now I think it's 32" but Brent will correct me I sure they're the standard height you see on most of the other BS36s --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > 36 inches is normal for handrails on balconies or walkways ashore but > might look funny or high on a boat....it is not that I am telling you > not to do it, just that it might look funny. Another thing to consider > is a higher rail will also interfere with the headsails a bit more. > > The normal height is about 30 inches on boats and I found it works well > for me. If it is very rough weather, I am normally harnessed in and walk > squatted down low when going up and down the decks while holding the > handrail and the cabin top hand rail at the same time. Some people like > to put up an extra temporary line about shoulder high from the shrouds > back to the rear pulpit when offshore. Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 5/07/2013 10:22 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > I was thinking about the same and would like to have Brent's opinion > > as well. > > > > So far, I think that upper rail from the deck level should be slightly > > under the elbow (about 36" high?). This way, you will not hit the rail > > by your elbow when moving along the rail and able to grab the rail > > comfortably (naturally bent arm position?). > > > > Some info I found: > > > > - A person's center of mass is slightly below his/her belly button, > > which is nearly the geometric center of a person. > > - Males and females have different centers of mass- females' centers > > of mass are lower than those of males. > > - The average ratio of center of mass to height in females is > > approximately 0.543 and the average ratio of center of mass to height > > in males is approximately 0.560. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > What height do you suggest for solid lifeline on a 37 ft sailboat? > > > > > > Thanks Martin > > > > > > > > | 30346|30342|2013-07-05 16:37:35|Paul Cotter|Keel lead|Hi Folks - I've collected most of the lead for a BS 26. It is in a variety of forms...ingots, sheet, wheel weights. I am planning on melting the lead in the keels. I planned on melting down the wheel weights and skimming off the metal clips. I'm wondering if I should bother melting them for the sole purpose of skimming of the metal clips. Could I just melt them in the keels and not worry about getting rid of the clips? Potentially safer, in terms of possible corrosion issues, to remove the clips. Thoughts? Suggestions? Cheers Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30347|30342|2013-07-05 16:47:18|Matt Malone|Re: Keel lead|I am guessing you have discovered that some wheel weights are 100% lead witn an embedded steel clip, some are 100% steel and some are a lead-iron alloy that does not melt ? I found separating the types of weights tedious. I also found that scrap dealers do not always distinguish well between lead sheet and tin sheet. Yes, they are different, and tin is a lot less dense -- steel makes better ballast. Also in sheet form, it is not as easy to distinguish between tin and lead. Weighing a carefully cut piece and measuring thickness will give you a density of 11. something or 5. something. Not hard to discriminate with actual measurements. I am assuming you will be having lead blocks or plates you mount in the keel, not a hot pour into the keel. I would skim, or at least not fully drain the melt. Lots of trash will float on the lead, and, best not to have that in the boat. Also, a clean lead block can be painted to seal in the lead. A block with trash floating on what was its upper surface is harder to seal and always looks like trash. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: paulcotter@... Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 12:38:57 -0800 Subject: [origamiboats] Keel lead Hi Folks - I've collected most of the lead for a BS 26. It is in a variety of forms...ingots, sheet, wheel weights. I am planning on melting the lead in the keels. I planned on melting down the wheel weights and skimming off the metal clips. I'm wondering if I should bother melting them for the sole purpose of skimming of the metal clips. Could I just melt them in the keels and not worry about getting rid of the clips? Potentially safer, in terms of possible corrosion issues, to remove the clips. Thoughts? Suggestions? Cheers Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30348|30342|2013-07-05 22:00:43|brentswain38|Re: solid lifeline height|On all my boats I go 30 inches off the top of the bulwark pipe, which gives you 34 inches above the decks. After 37 years at that height, I have seen no reason to change it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > What height do you suggest for solid lifeline on a 37 ft sailboat? > > Thanks Martin > | 30349|30342|2013-07-05 22:05:09|brentswain38|Re: Keel lead|I wouldnt worry about them if you plan to cap the lead with a fully welded plate, which is a good idea anyway.They are easy to skim off the top of the lead anyway.They make up 20% of the weight of wheel weights. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Cotter wrote: > > Hi Folks - > > I've collected most of the lead for a BS 26. It is in a variety of forms...ingots, sheet, wheel weights. > > I am planning on melting the lead in the keels. > > I planned on melting down the wheel weights and skimming off the metal clips. I'm wondering if I should bother melting them for the sole purpose of skimming of the metal clips. Could I just melt them in the keels and not worry about getting rid of the clips? Potentially safer, in terms of possible corrosion issues, to remove the clips. > > Thoughts? Suggestions? > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30350|30342|2013-07-06 10:55:59|haidan|Re: solid lifeline height|The lines are certainly high enough for me and I'm 6'6". --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "haidan" wrote: > > I second that, I've seen lifelines on a BS36 just a couple inches higher than the ones on my own and they just look a little funny the proportions aren't quiet right, shorter doesn't look so funny but doesn't hold on the boat as well either. don't know how tall they are right now I think it's 32" but Brent will correct me I sure they're the standard height you see on most of the other BS36s > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > 36 inches is normal for handrails on balconies or walkways ashore but > > might look funny or high on a boat....it is not that I am telling you > > not to do it, just that it might look funny. Another thing to consider > > is a higher rail will also interfere with the headsails a bit more. > > > > The normal height is about 30 inches on boats and I found it works well > > for me. If it is very rough weather, I am normally harnessed in and walk > > squatted down low when going up and down the decks while holding the > > handrail and the cabin top hand rail at the same time. Some people like > > to put up an extra temporary line about shoulder high from the shrouds > > back to the rear pulpit when offshore. Paul > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > > > On 5/07/2013 10:22 a.m., wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > I was thinking about the same and would like to have Brent's opinion > > > as well. > > > > > > So far, I think that upper rail from the deck level should be slightly > > > under the elbow (about 36" high?). This way, you will not hit the rail > > > by your elbow when moving along the rail and able to grab the rail > > > comfortably (naturally bent arm position?). > > > > > > Some info I found: > > > > > > - A person's center of mass is slightly below his/her belly button, > > > which is nearly the geometric center of a person. > > > - Males and females have different centers of mass- females' centers > > > of mass are lower than those of males. > > > - The average ratio of center of mass to height in females is > > > approximately 0.543 and the average ratio of center of mass to height > > > in males is approximately 0.560. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > What height do you suggest for solid lifeline on a 37 ft sailboat? > > > > > > > > Thanks Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 30351|30342|2013-07-07 21:34:10|Paul Wilson|Re: Keel lead|When I melted my lead in an external steel tub the clips from the wheel weights floated to the top and made a layer an inch or more thick with a lot of air space between the clips. They are easy to skim off with a shovel. Not getting rid of them would have reduced the capacity of my water tanks a bit. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 6/07/2013 8:47 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > I am guessing you have discovered that some wheel weights are 100% lead witn an embedded steel clip, some are 100% steel and some are a lead-iron alloy that does not melt ? I found separating the types of weights tedious. > > I also found that scrap dealers do not always distinguish well between lead sheet and tin sheet. Yes, they are different, and tin is a lot less dense -- steel makes better ballast. Also in sheet form, it is not as easy to distinguish between tin and lead. Weighing a carefully cut piece and measuring thickness will give you a density of 11. something or 5. something. Not hard to discriminate with actual measurements. > > I am assuming you will be having lead blocks or plates you mount in the keel, not a hot pour into the keel. I would skim, or at least not fully drain the melt. Lots of trash will float on the lead, and, best not to have that in the boat. Also, a clean lead block can be painted to seal in the lead. A block with trash floating on what was its upper surface is harder to seal and always looks like trash. > > Matt > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: paulcotter@... > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 12:38:57 -0800 > Subject: [origamiboats] Keel lead > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Folks - > > > > I've collected most of the lead for a BS 26. It is in a variety of forms...ingots, sheet, wheel weights. > > > > I am planning on melting the lead in the keels. > > > > I planned on melting down the wheel weights and skimming off the metal clips. I'm wondering if I should bother melting them for the sole purpose of skimming of the metal clips. Could I just melt them in the keels and not worry about getting rid of the clips? Potentially safer, in terms of possible corrosion issues, to remove the clips. > > > > Thoughts? Suggestions? > > > > Cheers > > > > Paul > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 30352|30342|2013-07-08 15:56:50|Eric & Christine McKenney|Re: Keel lead|I know we are talking of different scales , but when I was shooting black powder, I would melt down wheel weights and add a pinch of borax to clean the slag out of the lead, might be worth throwing in a box of 40 mule team Borax you can tell you have used enough when it looks shiny, almost like mercury. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 13:33:05 +1200 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Keel lead > > When I melted my lead in an external steel tub the clips from the wheel > weights floated to the top and made a layer an inch or more thick with a > lot of air space between the clips. They are easy to skim off with a > shovel. Not getting rid of them would have reduced the capacity of my > water tanks a bit. Paul > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. > > >`�.��.���`�.�>�.���`�.�. >�. > > On 6/07/2013 8:47 a.m., Matt Malone wrote: > > I am guessing you have discovered that some wheel weights are 100% lead witn an embedded steel clip, some are 100% steel and some are a lead-iron alloy that does not melt ? I found separating the types of weights tedious. > > > > I also found that scrap dealers do not always distinguish well between lead sheet and tin sheet. Yes, they are different, and tin is a lot less dense -- steel makes better ballast. Also in sheet form, it is not as easy to distinguish between tin and lead. Weighing a carefully cut piece and measuring thickness will give you a density of 11. something or 5. something. Not hard to discriminate with actual measurements. > > > > I am assuming you will be having lead blocks or plates you mount in the keel, not a hot pour into the keel. I would skim, or at least not fully drain the melt. Lots of trash will float on the lead, and, best not to have that in the boat. Also, a clean lead block can be painted to seal in the lead. A block with trash floating on what was its upper surface is harder to seal and always looks like trash. > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: paulcotter@... > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 12:38:57 -0800 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Keel lead > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Folks - > > > > > > > > I've collected most of the lead for a BS 26. It is in a variety of forms...ingots, sheet, wheel weights. > > > > > > > > I am planning on melting the lead in the keels. > > > > > > > > I planned on melting down the wheel weights and skimming off the metal clips. I'm wondering if I should bother melting them for the sole purpose of skimming of the metal clips. Could I just melt them in the keels and not worry about getting rid of the clips? Potentially safer, in terms of possible corrosion issues, to remove the clips. > > > > > > > > Thoughts? Suggestions? > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30353|30353|2013-07-15 13:33:49|GP|Boat security|Just wondering if anyone has set up some kind of internet webcam security for their boat. Seems a cheap and easy thing to do with the web these days. I am cruising the north coast of BC right now and from time to time I leave it anchored and unattended as hike about or re-supply etc. I would hate to come back to a ransacking... And if so it would be helpful to have a video recording of the bastards... ... thanks| 30354|30354|2013-07-15 19:00:14|Kim|Steel rusting: how long have I got?|Brent or anyone ... It could be that I will set a record for taking the longest time to build a 26-footer! It has now been 3 years since I bought the steel and started construction. But that's OK. Rest assured I will eventually finish and launch my boat! Because wheel-abraded and primed steel plate isn't readily available around here, all the steel in my boat was purchased bare and unpainted. I'm now wondering how long I've got before rusting of the unpainted steel becomes a problem. Some statistics that might affect the rusting rate here: Bare unprimed steel purchased 3 years ago. Hull and deck is 3mm (1/8") plate. Location: a farm 10km (6 miles) inland from the sea. Average annual rainfall: 1200mm (47") Average annual maximum temperature: 26C (79F) Average annual minimum temperature: 16C (61F) Average annual relative humidity: 53% to 66% I had wanted to wait until *ALL* necessary welding was completely finished before blasting and painting the boat. That would just make everything a whole lot easier! But it might be up to another year before that point is reached. Would it be OK to wait that long before blasting and painting? However, if it's time to get all the steel in the boat protected ASAP, then I could sandblast everything now, and spray on a welding primer. Should I do that? OTOH 3mm plate is pretty thick for a 26-footer. Maybe it's OK to let a bit of that thickness corrode away (but the rusting corrosion isn't likely to be uniform)? Thoughts, comments and suggestions from any of you would be very much appreciated. Thanks! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction blog: http://tinyurl.com/kims-yacht ____________________________________________________________| 30355|30353|2013-07-16 00:14:12|brentswain38|Re: Boat security|Trail cameras are available for around $100. Some use infrared for night recording. You could easily hide all but the lens behind a piece of cardboard in the port. You should have used that opening port for inside locking as I suggested, making it extremely difficult to get inside without bringing serious power tools along. I will keep it for you for when you get back. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone has set up some kind of internet webcam security for their boat. Seems a cheap and easy thing to do with the web these days. I am cruising the north coast of BC right now and from time to time I leave it anchored and unattended as hike about or re-supply etc. I would hate to come back to a ransacking... And if so it would be helpful to have a video recording of the bastards... > > ... thanks > | 30356|30354|2013-07-16 00:21:46|brentswain38|Re: Steel rusting: how long have I got?|Clean off a piece of scrap from the same order, weigh it, then compare that to a new, unrusted piece, to see how much you are losing, or clean the rust off it, then, using a dial caliper, compare the thickness of the two. I think the difference would be negligible, altho you could blast it and use a cold galvanizing primer, leaving only touch up to do when you are ready to paint.My steel used a cold galvanizing primer, and I have never sandblasted her.The epoxy is as good as the day I put it on 29 years ago. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Brent or anyone ... > > It could be that I will set a record for taking the longest time to build a 26-footer! It has now been 3 years since I bought the steel and started construction. But that's OK. Rest assured I will eventually finish and launch my boat! > > Because wheel-abraded and primed steel plate isn't readily available around here, all the steel in my boat was purchased bare and unpainted. I'm now wondering how long I've got before rusting of the unpainted steel becomes a problem. > > Some statistics that might affect the rusting rate here: > > Bare unprimed steel purchased 3 years ago. > Hull and deck is 3mm (1/8") plate. > Location: a farm 10km (6 miles) inland from the sea. > Average annual rainfall: 1200mm (47") > Average annual maximum temperature: 26C (79F) > Average annual minimum temperature: 16C (61F) > Average annual relative humidity: 53% to 66% > > I had wanted to wait until *ALL* necessary welding was completely finished before blasting and painting the boat. That would just make everything a whole lot easier! But it might be up to another year before that point is reached. Would it be OK to wait that long before blasting and painting? > > However, if it's time to get all the steel in the boat protected ASAP, then I could sandblast everything now, and spray on a welding primer. Should I do that? > > OTOH 3mm plate is pretty thick for a 26-footer. Maybe it's OK to let a bit of that thickness corrode away (but the rusting corrosion isn't likely to be uniform)? > > Thoughts, comments and suggestions from any of you would be very much appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction blog: http://tinyurl.com/kims-yacht > ____________________________________________________________ > | 30357|30354|2013-07-16 01:39:45|Aaron|Rusting hull from the inside|Brent   How long does it take I even looked at one of these on E-bay or craigslist before I started building my BS36. What is the company that build the round bilge steel sailboats in Vancouver? I believe you mentioned them awhile back something about a poor quality interior coating. I was in Seward last weekend working on the Colvin Gazelle I bought (Price was to good to turn down even if just for parts) when this guy came over and asked me to look at his boat to see if I could fix a hole they had just found. The boat is about 20 years old and rusted from the inside under the motor / transmission mount. I crawled through every opening I could get into and the coating is failing in several location. The owner is one sad fellow right now. I can fix what I can see, and will do some Ultrasound testing for him and hope for the best. I am sure he spent his life's savings on this boat.   Aaron  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30358|30354|2013-07-16 05:22:10|Paul Wilson|Re: Steel rusting: how long have I got?|If you are really worried about it and are going to blast later anyway, check out Rustbond from Carboline or Amerlock Sealer from PPG. They are penetrating sealers that are formulated to wet out and penetrate rust. They are very thin (like water) so would be easy to blast off later. One liter goes a long, long way since it is so thin. It may not cost too much. They are not weldable though so if you need to weld anything later you will need to clean the sealer off. http://www.carboline.com/products/product-applications/products-by-application/product-details/?app=Bonding%20Primers&product=0922 http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/Sealer_PDS_AI.pdf 3 years? I have heard of much worse. That is the way it goes....just keep at it, enjoy the building and one day you will be sailing. Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 15/07/2013 7:00 p.m., Kim wrote: > > > Brent or anyone ... > > It could be that I will set a record for taking the longest time to > build a 26-footer! It has now been 3 years since I bought the steel > and started construction. But that's OK. Rest assured I will > eventually finish and launch my boat! > > Because wheel-abraded and primed steel plate isn't readily available > around here, all the steel in my boat was purchased bare and > unpainted. I'm now wondering how long I've got before rusting of the > unpainted steel becomes a problem. > > Some statistics that might affect the rusting rate here: > > Bare unprimed steel purchased 3 years ago. > Hull and deck is 3mm (1/8") plate. > Location: a farm 10km (6 miles) inland from the sea. > Average annual rainfall: 1200mm (47") > Average annual maximum temperature: 26C (79F) > Average annual minimum temperature: 16C (61F) > Average annual relative humidity: 53% to 66% > > I had wanted to wait until *ALL* necessary welding was completely > finished before blasting and painting the boat. That would just make > everything a whole lot easier! But it might be up to another year > before that point is reached. Would it be OK to wait that long before > blasting and painting? > > However, if it's time to get all the steel in the boat protected ASAP, > then I could sandblast everything now, and spray on a welding primer. > Should I do that? > > OTOH 3mm plate is pretty thick for a 26-footer. Maybe it's OK to let a > bit of that thickness corrode away (but the rusting corrosion isn't > likely to be uniform)? > > Thoughts, comments and suggestions from any of you would be very much > appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction blog: http://tinyurl.com/kims-yacht > __________________________________________________________ > > | 30359|30354|2013-07-16 13:35:54|Tom Mann|Re: Steel rusting: how long have I got?|Hello Kim Mine went a couple years before sandblasting and had just minor surface rust, as long as the water doesn't stand anywhere and just runs off it wont get to bad for quite a while. If it is going to be a few more years maybe just shoot some cheap primer on it preferably a white On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Kim wrote: > > Brent or anyone ... > > It could be that I will set a record for taking the longest time to build > a 26-footer! It has now been 3 years since I bought the steel and started > construction. But that's OK. Rest assured I will eventually finish and > launch my boat! > > Because wheel-abraded and primed steel plate isn't readily available > around here, all the steel in my boat was purchased bare and unpainted. I'm > now wondering how long I've got before rusting of the unpainted steel > becomes a problem. > > Some statistics that might affect the rusting rate here: > > Bare unprimed steel purchased 3 years ago. > Hull and deck is 3mm (1/8") plate. > Location: a farm 10km (6 miles) inland from the sea. > Average annual rainfall: 1200mm (47") > Average annual maximum temperature: 26C (79F) > Average annual minimum temperature: 16C (61F) > Average annual relative humidity: 53% to 66% > > I had wanted to wait until *ALL* necessary welding was completely finished > before blasting and painting the boat. That would just make everything a > whole lot easier! But it might be up to another year before that point is > reached. Would it be OK to wait that long before blasting and painting? > > However, if it's time to get all the steel in the boat protected ASAP, > then I could sandblast everything now, and spray on a welding primer. > Should I do that? > > OTOH 3mm plate is pretty thick for a 26-footer. Maybe it's OK to let a bit > of that thickness corrode away (but the rusting corrosion isn't likely to > be uniform)? > > Thoughts, comments and suggestions from any of you would be very much > appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction blog: http://tinyurl.com/kims-yacht > ____________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30360|30354|2013-07-16 13:45:28|Matt Malone|Re: Steel rusting: how long have I got?|Kim, Sandblasting will remove cheap primer as easily as rust. Cheap primer should give you a couple years protection from ordinary rain exposure. Seems the easiest way to go. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: tazmannm@... Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 10:35:24 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel rusting: how long have I got? Hello Kim Mine went a couple years before sandblasting and had just minor surface rust, as long as the water doesn't stand anywhere and just runs off it wont get to bad for quite a while. If it is going to be a few more years maybe just shoot some cheap primer on it preferably a white On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Kim wrote: > > Brent or anyone ... > > It could be that I will set a record for taking the longest time to build > a 26-footer! It has now been 3 years since I bought the steel and started > construction. But that's OK. Rest assured I will eventually finish and > launch my boat! > > Because wheel-abraded and primed steel plate isn't readily available > around here, all the steel in my boat was purchased bare and unpainted. I'm > now wondering how long I've got before rusting of the unpainted steel > becomes a problem. > > Some statistics that might affect the rusting rate here: > > Bare unprimed steel purchased 3 years ago. > Hull and deck is 3mm (1/8") plate. > Location: a farm 10km (6 miles) inland from the sea. > Average annual rainfall: 1200mm (47") > Average annual maximum temperature: 26C (79F) > Average annual minimum temperature: 16C (61F) > Average annual relative humidity: 53% to 66% > > I had wanted to wait until *ALL* necessary welding was completely finished > before blasting and painting the boat. That would just make everything a > whole lot easier! But it might be up to another year before that point is > reached. Would it be OK to wait that long before blasting and painting? > > However, if it's time to get all the steel in the boat protected ASAP, > then I could sandblast everything now, and spray on a welding primer. > Should I do that? > > OTOH 3mm plate is pretty thick for a 26-footer. Maybe it's OK to let a bit > of that thickness corrode away (but the rusting corrosion isn't likely to > be uniform)? > > Thoughts, comments and suggestions from any of you would be very much > appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction blog: http://tinyurl.com/kims-yacht > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30361|30354|2013-07-16 13:49:09|brentswain38|Re: Rusting hull from the inside|I remember reading about aboat which had bare 3/1th plate behind the head where it was wet all the time, and they couldnt paint it properly. It took 15 years to rust thru 3/16th plate.1/8th would take ten yeras at least. Corrosion doubles for every 10 degrees rise in temperature. I dont know anyone building round bilged steel boats in Vancouver, waterline yachts did some in Sidney BC . Foulkes did some hard chine boats in the lower mainland , and had zero paint on the inside.All had serious corrosion under the foam. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron wrote: > > Brent >   > How long does it take > I even looked at one of these on E-bay or craigslist before I started building my BS36. > What is the company that build the round bilge steel sailboats in Vancouver? I believe you mentioned them awhile back something about a poor quality interior coating. > I was in Seward last weekend working on the Colvin Gazelle I bought (Price was to good to turn down even if just for parts) when this guy came over and asked me to look at his boat to see if I could fix a hole they had just found. The boat is about 20 years old and rusted from the inside under the motor / transmission mount. I crawled through every opening I could get into and the coating is failing in several location. The owner is one sad fellow right now. I can fix what I can see, and will do some Ultrasound testing for him and hope for the best. I am sure he spent his life's savings on this boat. >   > Aaron  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30362|30354|2013-07-16 23:46:19|wild_explorer|Re: Steel rusting: how long have I got?|Actually, "weathering" might be good for origami boat.. It will take internal stress out of the metal. Before "hi-tech", precision machinery was made from metal/blanks which were intentionally left exposed to a weather for years. I suspect, that rusting should help to remove a scale from metal (if you have HR steel) and possibly give better surface profile for paint to stick.| 30363|30354|2013-07-18 06:56:17|Kim|Re: Steel rusting: how long have I got?|Brent, Tom, Paul, Matt and Wild ... Many thanks for your responses and ideas to my question about rusting rates. Very much appreciated. I hadn't actually thought of spraying on a protective coating right now, before I sandblast the whole boat later. That's a pretty good idea. I'll do that! Over the next month I think I'll spray everything with this zinc-rich welding primer: http://tinyurl.com/Carboweld11 It's not too expensive, and because it's a welding primer I'll be able to carry on welding without having to worry about grinding the paint back in the weld area. Most importantly, it should completely stop the current rusting process. It goes on pretty thinly so it should blast off very easily later. This means that I can go back to my original plan of waiting until I had completely finished *ALL* the welding before fully sandblasting and properly painting the boat. :-) Thanks again guys! Cheers ... Kim. My Swain 26 construction blog: http://tinyurl.com/kims-yacht ____________________________________________________________| 30364|30364|2013-07-18 23:18:30|wild_explorer|Origami hull's references|Ok... Had to think about it before starting to build, but it looks so easy on DVD... After putting cabin sides, you loose your main reference - bulwark pipe (where you could lay pipes or lumber across). If deck sides are off for some reasons even 1/8-1/4" it would affect cabin sides installation and will be visible (if you lay pipes on cabin sides). What can you use to re-check that there is no twist? What could be used as a references at this point? Even good bubble level does not work well - "pipes on bulwark" were more precise and easier to check compare to level. And there is nothing to put a level on. After putting cabin top on, it would be even harder to find references for future checks/installations. If I could do it again, I would use different sequence, but too late now ;) P.S. From six 12' 4x4 beams, I have now only one straight one ;(. All others got distorted by weather/sun.| 30365|30364|2013-07-19 10:26:44|ragnarpar|Re: Origami hull's references|Methinks some clear hose, water, clamps, should aughta tell you what ever a level on a board laid across the pipes would. Let the hose extend above the pipe a six inches, mark gradients on the hose from the top ends to six inches below the pipe. With the hose passing under the hull, it should get you within 1/8 th inch heh?? Might you pull measurements from under the deck for your X measuring??? I know nothing, other than wood boards make a better guide for a plasma torch, yes I was dumb enough to try to use an angle iron like for a regular torch, har har har, arrrgghh! Par Bagpipes only have nine notes, how hard can they be??? Har har har !!!! > > What can you use to re-check that there is no twist? What could be used as a references at this point? Even good bubble level does not work well - "pipes on bulwark" were more precise and easier to check compare to level. And there is nothing to put a level on. After putting cabin top on, it would be even harder to find references for future checks/installations. > > If I could do it again, I would use different sequence, but too late now ;) > | 30366|30364|2013-07-19 14:23:32|brentswain38|Re: Origami hull's references|You could put planks up under the decks and sight along them. Their length would have to be right ,but that should be no problem --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Ok... Had to think about it before starting to build, but it looks so easy on DVD... > > After putting cabin sides, you loose your main reference - bulwark pipe (where you could lay pipes or lumber across). If deck sides are off for some reasons even 1/8-1/4" it would affect cabin sides installation and will be visible (if you lay pipes on cabin sides). > > What can you use to re-check that there is no twist? What could be used as a references at this point? Even good bubble level does not work well - "pipes on bulwark" were more precise and easier to check compare to level. And there is nothing to put a level on. After putting cabin top on, it would be even harder to find references for future checks/installations. > > If I could do it again, I would use different sequence, but too late now ;) > > P.S. From six 12' 4x4 beams, I have now only one straight one ;(. All others got distorted by weather/sun. > | 30367|30354|2013-07-19 16:08:22|brentswain38|Re: Steel rusting: how long have I got?|If you are sandblasting first, then zinc is the way to go, If you are painting over rust, to be sandblasted later,then free paint from the recycling depot is the most practical . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Brent, Tom, Paul, Matt and Wild ... > > Many thanks for your responses and ideas to my question about rusting rates. Very much appreciated. > > I hadn't actually thought of spraying on a protective coating right now, before I sandblast the whole boat later. That's a pretty good idea. I'll do that! > > Over the next month I think I'll spray everything with this zinc-rich welding primer: > > http://tinyurl.com/Carboweld11 > > It's not too expensive, and because it's a welding primer I'll be able to carry on welding without having to worry about grinding the paint back in the weld area. Most importantly, it should completely stop the current rusting process. It goes on pretty thinly so it should blast off very easily later. > > This means that I can go back to my original plan of waiting until I had completely finished *ALL* the welding before fully sandblasting and properly painting the boat. :-) > > Thanks again guys! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > My Swain 26 construction blog: http://tinyurl.com/kims-yacht > ____________________________________________________________ > | 30368|30364|2013-07-19 20:32:49|wild_explorer|Re: Origami hull's references|Water hose-level does not work well. It requires big diameter hose and big clear tubes. Small ones gives HUGE error - much more than lousy bubble level. I tried.... Problem with big hose/tubes that you need to align your eye with water level at both sides of the tube, moving hose/tubes changes water level on other end as well, water evaporates over the time, sometimes air got trapped in the hose, hard to move around, etc. Water hose-level is useful to make rough adjustment when there is no references at all present, over long distance and for waterline marks though. I used yard sticks tied to clear tubes for easier references. I may try hose-level again... X-references would be nice to have, but hard to establish. P.S. Thanks for the tip for plasma cutter guide. I did try using metal guide. It should be less height of the nozzle (guide should not touch the cap)or you can damage torch or unit. It allows only drag the torch on the work. Wooded guide is much better idea! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ragnarpar" wrote: > > > > Methinks some clear hose, water, clamps, should aughta tell you what ever a level on a board laid across the pipes would. > Let the hose extend above the pipe a six inches, mark gradients on the hose from the top ends to six inches below the pipe. With the hose passing under the hull, it should get you within 1/8 th inch heh?? > Might you pull measurements from under the deck for your X measuring??? > > I know nothing, other than wood boards make a better guide for a plasma torch, yes I was dumb enough to try to use an angle iron like for a regular torch, har har har, arrrgghh! > > > Par | 30369|30364|2013-07-19 22:13:06|James Pronk|Re: Origami hull's references|So do you have your decks on? Has your boat been moved since you levelled it to put your decks on? Once you have the decks and cabin top on will the boat twist much? Are you trying to level it or find reference points? James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30370|30370|2013-07-19 22:24:28|jpronk1|We want to have a look at some boats in August|Hello everyone My wife, two kids and I will be on Vancouver Island from August 16 till the 27. Will will be starting from Port Hardy and traveling south to the Comox area. We would love to have a look at some Brent Swain 36's to se the layout and get a better idea of the size, space and fitting out of one of these boats. We will also be traveling to Ucluelet and Tefino on the west coast, but are not planing on heading much farther south on the island. If anyone would be willing to give us a tour of your boat we would really appreciate it. Thank you, James| 30371|30364|2013-07-19 22:36:37|jpronk1|Re: Origami hull's references|What about making up a saddle type piece. Two pieces on the same plain with two vertical pieces at 90 degrees and one piece a little longer then the max width of your cabin, joining them. You could set this up and use it for a reference. Does this make sence? I have not been getting enough sleep the last couple of days. James --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Ok... Had to think about it before starting to build, but it looks so easy on DVD... > > After putting cabin sides, you loose your main reference - bulwark pipe (where you could lay pipes or lumber across). If deck sides are off for some reasons even 1/8-1/4" it would affect cabin sides installation and will be visible (if you lay pipes on cabin sides). > > What can you use to re-check that there is no twist? What could be used as a references at this point? Even good bubble level does not work well - "pipes on bulwark" were more precise and easier to check compare to level. And there is nothing to put a level on. After putting cabin top on, it would be even harder to find references for future checks/installations. > > If I could do it again, I would use different sequence, but too late now ;) > > P.S. From six 12' 4x4 beams, I have now only one straight one ;(. All others got distorted by weather/sun. > | 30372|30364|2013-07-20 01:23:51|wild_explorer|Re: Origami hull's references|My building site has uneven ground (slope in 2 directions) and in the area where heavy trucks regularly passing by. Ground shaking somehow move support points or hull on support points. I had to re-level the hull several times during the project already. Brent's method (lumber/pipes on bulwark) was easiest so far to check the twist of the hull. Just level midships and check the rest. I have foredeck and sidedecks on and I was installing cabin's sides. I know that my cabin sides are exactly equal, but laying pipes on top of it showed that there is some twist. I had temporarily braced side decks to the sides (not the bottom) before cabinsides installation and inside edge of the decks had the same distance to bulwark. I had to take cabin sides off and re-check leveling/twist using bulwark pipe as a reference. It was off. So, sometime during the project, the hull got twisted again along center line and I missed it. Looks like I need to change building site where there is no heavy traffic nearby. Not easy task at this point. May be it is need to do bracing of side decks to the sides AND centerline. Or may be use different approach to make the hull stable BEFORE putting decks on - like triangular bracing of the hull side-CL-side. At this point, it looks like putting bulkheads and tanktop would be much easier without sidedecks - you can use bulwark as support for lifting and it makes additional references you can use inside the hull. I can see the wisdom of putting the decks and superstructure as soon as possible. It allows to work inside the boat during rain season - I lost a lot of time because of rain. But.. It complicates other things. I would install sidedecks differently too. More traditional way. More likely Brent's has other tricks in his sleeve to solve such problems. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > So do you have your decks on? Has your boat been moved since you levelled it to put your decks on? Once you have the decks and cabin top on will the boat twist much? Are you trying to level it or find reference points? > James > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30373|30364|2013-07-20 01:30:28|wild_explorer|Re: Origami hull's references|I have hard time picturing it. Could you explain it differently, please? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > > What about making up a saddle type piece. Two pieces on the same plain with two vertical pieces at 90 degrees and one piece a little longer then the max width of your cabin, joining them. You could set this up and use it for a reference. > Does this make sence? I have not been getting enough sleep the last couple of days. > James | 30374|30364|2013-07-20 08:37:27|Ted|Re: Origami hull's references|I used two straight 2" pipes laid across the boat, fore and aft of the cabin and resting on the bulwark pipes. In plan view the pipes are made parallel to each other. Using old pallets I built a tower so that I could position myself to sight along the two pipes and check for twist. A cheap laser level from a DIY shed was used from the tower to check that the boat was level. Regards, Ted| 30375|30364|2013-07-20 11:07:15|wild_explorer|Re: Origami hull's references|Thanks for the sketch James! I was thinking about it too... Making such jig complicates things even more. It is need to make it very precise (which is not easy with 8-10' span and it is need to keep it from tipping over on bulwark pipe. Because I already took cabin sides off, I am thinking about using pipes across bulwark pipe as a reference and temporarily brace the hull at strategic points by triangulation (sidedeck-hullside and hullside/sidecks-CL). Hopefully, it should prevent the hull from twisting again in the future. I need to rethink whole concept about superstructure installation, because small problem grows into big one when you need to correct something. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I have hard time picturing it. Could you explain it differently, please? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > > > What about making up a saddle type piece. Two pieces on the same plain with two vertical pieces at 90 degrees and one piece a little longer then the max width of your cabin, joining them. You could set this up and use it for a reference. > > Does this make sence? I have not been getting enough sleep the last couple of days. > > James > | 30376|30354|2013-07-20 14:01:12|Alan|Re: Steel rusting: how long have I got?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Hello Kim > Mine went a couple years before sandblasting and had just minor surface > rust, as long as the water doesn't stand anywhere and just runs off it wont > get to bad for quite a while. If it is going to be a few more years maybe > just shoot some cheap primer on it preferably a white > > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Kim wrote: > > > > > Brent or anyone ... > > > > It could be that I will set a record for taking the longest time to build > > a 26-footer! It has now been 3 years since I bought the steel and started > > construction. But that's OK. Rest assured I will eventually finish and > > launch my boat! > > > > Because wheel-abraded and primed steel plate isn't readily available > > around here, all the steel in my boat was purchased bare and unpainted. I'm > > now wondering how long I've got before rusting of the unpainted steel > > becomes a problem. > > > > Some statistics that might affect the rusting rate here: > > > > Bare unprimed steel purchased 3 years ago. > > Hull and deck is 3mm (1/8") plate. > > Location: a farm 10km (6 miles) inland from the sea. > > Average annual rainfall: 1200mm (47") > > Average annual maximum temperature: 26C (79F) > > Average annual minimum temperature: 16C (61F) > > Average annual relative humidity: 53% to 66% > > > > I had wanted to wait until *ALL* necessary welding was completely finished > > before blasting and painting the boat. That would just make everything a > > whole lot easier! But it might be up to another year before that point is > > reached. Would it be OK to wait that long before blasting and painting? > > > > However, if it's time to get all the steel in the boat protected ASAP, > > then I could sandblast everything now, and spray on a welding primer. > > Should I do that? > > > > OTOH 3mm plate is pretty thick for a 26-footer. Maybe it's OK to let a bit > > of that thickness corrode away (but the rusting corrosion isn't likely to > > be uniform)? > > > > Thoughts, comments and suggestions from any of you would be very much > > appreciated. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > > > > My Swain 26 construction blog: http://tinyurl.com/kims-yacht > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > >I use a weld through primer called bloxide. I prime each piece after it has been added and put some more on whenever a little rust shows through. This keeps the boat looking good and prevents any serious rusting problems. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30377|30370|2013-07-20 20:27:00|brentswain38|Re: We want to have a look at some boats in August|I will either be in Heriot Bay on Quadra Island or Cortes for the Shark Spit regatta on the 20th of August. You will find several 36 footetr in Comox, one at the spit and two west of the condos which you can walk out to at low tide . There is another one on second avenue in Courtenay. Remind me again a few days before you get here --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > Hello everyone > My wife, two kids and I will be on Vancouver Island from August 16 till the 27. Will will be starting from Port Hardy and traveling south to the Comox area. > We would love to have a look at some Brent Swain 36's to se the layout and get a better idea of the size, space and fitting out of one of these boats. We will also be traveling to Ucluelet and Tefino on the west coast, but are not planing on heading much farther south on the island. > If anyone would be willing to give us a tour of your boat we would really appreciate it. > Thank you, > James > | 30378|30364|2013-07-20 20:37:25|brentswain38|Re: Origami hull's references|Once all your side decks are on, it becomes as stiff as a brick, and there is no way to get the twist out without cutting the transverse seams on the side decks to allow them to move. We once broke the handle off a big chain comealong trying. I make this clear in my book, get the twist out before all the side decks panels are in, and welded to each other. Traditional methods will make no difference, and will only make it much harder to avoid twist . Uneven ground makes no difference. You will have to free the ends of the side deck panels from each other so those seams can move, or you will never move it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > My building site has uneven ground (slope in 2 directions) and in the area where heavy trucks regularly passing by. Ground shaking somehow move support points or hull on support points. I had to re-level the hull several times during the project already. > > Brent's method (lumber/pipes on bulwark) was easiest so far to check the twist of the hull. Just level midships and check the rest. I have foredeck and sidedecks on and I was installing cabin's sides. I know that my cabin sides are exactly equal, but laying pipes on top of it showed that there is some twist. > > I had temporarily braced side decks to the sides (not the bottom) before cabinsides installation and inside edge of the decks had the same distance to bulwark. I had to take cabin sides off and re-check leveling/twist using bulwark pipe as a reference. It was off. So, sometime during the project, the hull got twisted again along center line and I missed it. > > Looks like I need to change building site where there is no heavy traffic nearby. Not easy task at this point. > > May be it is need to do bracing of side decks to the sides AND centerline. Or may be use different approach to make the hull stable BEFORE putting decks on - like triangular bracing of the hull side-CL-side. At this point, it looks like putting bulkheads and tanktop would be much easier without sidedecks - you can use bulwark as support for lifting and it makes additional references you can use inside the hull. > > I can see the wisdom of putting the decks and superstructure as soon as possible. It allows to work inside the boat during rain season - I lost a lot of time because of rain. But.. It complicates other things. > > I would install sidedecks differently too. More traditional way. > > More likely Brent's has other tricks in his sleeve to solve such problems. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > So do you have your decks on? Has your boat been moved since you levelled it to put your decks on? Once you have the decks and cabin top on will the boat twist much? Are you trying to level it or find reference points? > > James > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 30379|30364|2013-07-20 20:43:03|brentswain38|Re: Origami hull's references|Once the decks are on, it becomes untwistable. You would have to stretch the deck plates diagonally( at 60,000 psi tensile strength )to twist the hull. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > So do you have your decks on? Has your boat been moved since you levelled it to put your decks on? Once you have the decks and cabin top on will the boat twist much? Are you trying to level it or find reference points? > James > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30380|30364|2013-07-21 00:22:57|wild_explorer|Re: Origami hull's references|Brent, I have removed twist before putting side decks on. As I mentioned before, something happened during the time of side decks installation. Luckily, I did not put transom decks on yet. True, I had to cut seams between side decks and foredeck to "free" the hull for adjustment. Hopefully, I would not need to cut seams between side deck's panels. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Once all your side decks are on, it becomes as stiff as a brick, and there is no way to get the twist out without cutting the transverse seams on the side decks to allow them to move. We once broke the handle off a big chain comealong trying. I make this clear in my book, get the twist out before all the side decks panels are in, and welded to each other. Traditional methods will make no difference, and will only make it much harder to avoid twist . Uneven ground makes no difference. You will have to free the ends of the side deck panels from each other so those seams can move, or you will never move it. > | 30381|30364|2013-07-21 12:24:59|wild_explorer|Re: Origami hull's references|Brent, how would you suggest to brace the hull from the inside (without decks) to prevent it from twisting? I mean, not relying on outside supports... Now I have only two supports along CL (at the location of darts) and under the chine at midships (to prevent it from tipping side-to-side and keep midships stable/leveled - not to raise midships). I have "adjustment" supports at the ends of transom's bulwark pipes to the ground for "twist removal". Looks like most difficult part for adjustment is a bow... Before I used lumber jammed from bulwark pipe to the ground for bracing/adjustment.| 30382|30364|2013-07-21 18:11:29|Kim|Re: Origami hull's references|Wild ... May not apply to you; but this is how I braced the inside of my hull before the decks went on: http://smu.gs/118aajE There was a fair bit of tension on that chain - I could stand on it without deflecting it much; but it very successfully completely removed all twist in the hull. I left that chain there until all the side decks and all the cabin was in place. I tripped over it many times! Since then I've never tried to measure for any twist in the hull - I don't want to know, because as Brent said everything is locked in now. However, everything "looks" straight, and I'm pretty sure there's no twist in it. Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, how would you suggest to brace the hull from the inside (without decks) to prevent it from twisting? I mean, not relying on outside supports... > > Now I have only two supports along CL (at the location of darts) and under the chine at midships (to prevent it from tipping side-to-side and keep midships stable/leveled - not to raise midships). I have "adjustment" supports at the ends of transom's bulwark pipes to the ground for "twist removal". Looks like most difficult part for adjustment is a bow... Before I used lumber jammed from bulwark pipe to the ground for bracing/adjustment. > | 30383|30364|2013-07-21 20:35:14|wild_explorer|Re: Origami hull's references|Thanks Kim! with your pictures it is easy to understand what we are talking about ;) It should work. I just need to find where the source of my problem is and where to put anchor points. My side decks (at this point) mainly maintain the shape of the hull sides. And because I did not weld longitudinal beams of the deck to transverse beams, it flexes a bit - which allows some adjustment. I had some of hull's support similar to what you did (from ground to bulwark pipe) and under dart points. I would like to brace the hull such way, that I do not need to depend on "outside" supports. Now, with only two supports under CL, hull finds its own equilibrium when "levelers/adjustments" are placed under chine at midships. Gravity does the rest. Just need to take twist out by inside bracing. May be similar to X-bracing to keep frames square, but for a boat, I think, it should be anchored to CL. Another question Kim... Did you remove transverse bracing (straight flat bars of foredeck's arc beams) from foredeck or left it as it was? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Wild ... > > May not apply to you; but this is how I braced the inside of my hull before the decks went on: > > http://smu.gs/118aajE > > There was a fair bit of tension on that chain - I could stand on it without deflecting it much; but it very successfully completely removed all twist in the hull. > > I left that chain there until all the side decks and all the cabin was in place. I tripped over it many times! Since then I've never tried to measure for any twist in the hull - I don't want to know, because as Brent said everything is locked in now. However, everything "looks" straight, and I'm pretty sure there's no twist in it. > > Cheers ... > > Kim. | 30384|30364|2013-07-21 23:55:27|Kim|Re: Origami hull's references|Hi Wild ... I think the thing to remember is that, initially, removing twist from the hull, and making the hull level in all directions, are two completely separate things. The hull should be made level in all directions before starting to fit the cabin sides. But it's not necessary to do so to remove any hull twist or fit the side decks. In the photo I mentioned earlier ( http://smu.gs/118aajE ), the chain inside the hull was tightened until the lengths of timber resting on the bulwark pipe were parallel with each other. At that stage, the lengths of timber didn't have to also be horizontal as well - they just had to be parallel with each other. Once parallel with each other, there could be no twist in the hull. Indeed, the hull could have been lolling way over on it's side. It wouldn't have mattered. Later, when I fitted the side decks (which in my boat were 1'6" wide along their whole length), the outboard edge of the side decks were 4" down from the bulwark pipe, and I made the inboard edge of the side decks touch the bottom of the above-mentioned athwartships lengths of timber (which were now parallel with each other) that were resting on the bulwark pipe. This photo shows what I mean: http://smu.gs/13QDyYf Again, the whole hull did not have to be level in all directions for this. Once the side-decks were welded in place, only then did I make the hull level in all directions, and I then started to weld on the cabin sides. Maybe you are trying to get too many things level at the same time? I certainly don't think you could remove twist in an origami hull using props from the outside. The above procedure could probably only be used for building origami boats; but it worked absolutely perfectly for me. In your other question, when you asked ... "Did you remove transverse bracing (straight flat bars of foredeck's arc beams) from foredeck or left it as it was?" ... did you mean these: http://smu.gs/19cBB0v If so, yes, they were only temporary and were removed later. In this photo they have gone: http://smu.gs/13QEDzd Hope this helps mate! Cheers ... Kim. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Thanks Kim! with your pictures it is easy to understand what we are talking about ;) > > It should work. I just need to find where the source of my problem is and where to put anchor points. > > My side decks (at this point) mainly maintain the shape of the hull sides. And because I did not weld longitudinal beams of the deck to transverse beams, it flexes a bit - which allows some adjustment. > > I had some of hull's support similar to what you did (from ground to bulwark pipe) and under dart points. I would like to brace the hull such way, that I do not need to depend on "outside" supports. Now, with only two supports under CL, hull finds its own equilibrium when "levelers/adjustments" are placed under chine at midships. Gravity does the rest. Just need to take twist out by inside bracing. May be similar to X-bracing to keep frames square, but for a boat, I think, it should be anchored to CL. > > Another question Kim... Did you remove transverse bracing (straight flat bars of foredeck's arc beams) from foredeck or left it as it was? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > > > Wild ... > > > > May not apply to you; but this is how I braced the inside of my hull before the decks went on: > > > > http://smu.gs/118aajE > > > > There was a fair bit of tension on that chain - I could stand on it without deflecting it much; but it very successfully completely removed all twist in the hull. > > > > I left that chain there until all the side decks and all the cabin was in place. I tripped over it many times! Since then I've never tried to measure for any twist in the hull - I don't want to know, because as Brent said everything is locked in now. However, everything "looks" straight, and I'm pretty sure there's no twist in it. > > > > Cheers ... > > > > Kim. > | 30385|30364|2013-07-22 14:47:06|brentswain38|Re: Origami hull's references|Well said Kim. Thanks. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Wild ... > > I think the thing to remember is that, initially, removing twist from the hull, and making the hull level in all directions, are two completely separate things. > > The hull should be made level in all directions before starting to fit the cabin sides. But it's not necessary to do so to remove any hull twist or fit the side decks. > > In the photo I mentioned earlier ( http://smu.gs/118aajE ), the chain inside the hull was tightened until the lengths of timber resting on the bulwark pipe were parallel with each other. At that stage, the lengths of timber didn't have to also be horizontal as well - they just had to be parallel with each other. Once parallel with each other, there could be no twist in the hull. > > Indeed, the hull could have been lolling way over on it's side. It wouldn't have mattered. > > Later, when I fitted the side decks (which in my boat were 1'6" wide along their whole length), the outboard edge of the side decks were 4" down from the bulwark pipe, and I made the inboard edge of the side decks touch the bottom of the above-mentioned athwartships lengths of timber (which were now parallel with each other) that were resting on the bulwark pipe. This photo shows what I mean: > > http://smu.gs/13QDyYf > > Again, the whole hull did not have to be level in all directions for this. > > Once the side-decks were welded in place, only then did I make the hull level in all directions, and I then started to weld on the cabin sides. > > Maybe you are trying to get too many things level at the same time? I certainly don't think you could remove twist in an origami hull using props from the outside. > > The above procedure could probably only be used for building origami boats; but it worked absolutely perfectly for me. > > In your other question, when you asked ... > > "Did you remove transverse bracing (straight flat bars of foredeck's arc beams) from foredeck or left it as it was?" > > ... did you mean these: http://smu.gs/19cBB0v > > If so, yes, they were only temporary and were removed later. In this photo they have gone: http://smu.gs/13QEDzd > > Hope this helps mate! > > Cheers ... > > Kim. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > Thanks Kim! with your pictures it is easy to understand what we are talking about ;) > > > > It should work. I just need to find where the source of my problem is and where to put anchor points. > > > > My side decks (at this point) mainly maintain the shape of the hull sides. And because I did not weld longitudinal beams of the deck to transverse beams, it flexes a bit - which allows some adjustment. > > > > I had some of hull's support similar to what you did (from ground to bulwark pipe) and under dart points. I would like to brace the hull such way, that I do not need to depend on "outside" supports. Now, with only two supports under CL, hull finds its own equilibrium when "levelers/adjustments" are placed under chine at midships. Gravity does the rest. Just need to take twist out by inside bracing. May be similar to X-bracing to keep frames square, but for a boat, I think, it should be anchored to CL. > > > > Another question Kim... Did you remove transverse bracing (straight flat bars of foredeck's arc beams) from foredeck or left it as it was? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Wild ... > > > > > > May not apply to you; but this is how I braced the inside of my hull before the decks went on: > > > > > > http://smu.gs/118aajE > > > > > > There was a fair bit of tension on that chain - I could stand on it without deflecting it much; but it very successfully completely removed all twist in the hull. > > > > > > I left that chain there until all the side decks and all the cabin was in place. I tripped over it many times! Since then I've never tried to measure for any twist in the hull - I don't want to know, because as Brent said everything is locked in now. However, everything "looks" straight, and I'm pretty sure there's no twist in it. > > > > > > Cheers ... > > > > > > Kim. > > > | 30386|30364|2013-07-22 22:30:23|wild_explorer|Re: Origami hull's references|Thanks Kim for detailed explanation. I have some comments/questions - see below... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Hi Wild ... > > I think the thing to remember is that, initially, removing twist from the hull, and making the hull level in all directions, are two completely separate things. > I agree with that. I did not pay much attention to leveling the hull in transverse direction as well when I was removing hull's twist. However, you need to use some reference to check hull's twist anyway. Usually it is midships' timber. And midships has less vertical movement (as rotational plane) during twist removal. So, transverse leveling of midships could be only beneficial. It might need some after-leveling, but hull should be close to transverse level after twist removal. It is just easier to keep hull from tipping on the side, because hull's center of gravity suppose to be aligned with centerline - less load on side supports. > In the photo I mentioned earlier ( http://smu.gs/118aajE ), the chain inside the hull was tightened until the lengths of timber resting on the bulwark pipe were parallel with each other. At that stage, the lengths of timber didn't have to also be horizontal as well - they just had to be parallel with each other. Once parallel with each other, there could be no twist in the hull. > Looking at the picture of anchor points, it looks like you had only twist between bow and midships. Is it correct? > Once the side-decks were welded in place, only then did I make the hull level in all directions, and I then started to weld on the cabin sides. > > Maybe you are trying to get too many things level at the same time? I certainly don't think you could remove twist in an origami hull using props from the outside. > Without decks, you can remove hull's twist just with outside supports. But I am interested if it is possible to BRACE the hull from the inside without putting decks on. > The above procedure could probably only be used for building origami boats; but it worked absolutely perfectly for me. > It would be nice to have some sketch in Brent's book how to remove the twist and where to put anchor points. Placing anchoring points looks counter-intuitive at first... | 30387|30364|2013-07-22 23:58:08|wild_explorer|Re: Origami hull's references|Oooops... Did you have hull's twist only between transom and midships? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > In the photo I mentioned earlier ( http://smu.gs/118aajE ), the chain inside the hull was tightened until the lengths of timber resting on the bulwark pipe were parallel with each other. At that stage, the lengths of timber didn't have to also be horizontal as well - they just had to be parallel with each other. Once parallel with each other, there could be no twist in the hull. > > > > Looking at the picture of anchor points, it looks like you had only twist between bow and midships. Is it correct? > | 30388|30364|2013-07-23 02:42:42|Kim|Re: Origami hull's references|Hi Wild ... The twist in my hull was pretty uniform along its whole length. It wasn't just between the transom and midships. Because all the seams in the hull were spot-welded, I figured I would need only one internal chain to pull all the twist out of the whole structure, and that proved to be the case. Maybe a larger boat might need additional chains; but I suspect not. I experimented a bit with positions for that chain, and what you see in the photo ( http://smu.gs/118aajE ) was the chain's final location. I think the chain's anchor points would vary a lot with each boat, and would probably depend on LOA, skin thickness, and maybe even the number of spot welds that were in place at that time. Not sure what you mean by "BRACE the hull from the inside without putting decks on"; but the chain I've described above might be considered a (flexible) internal brace. When the twist was removed and the chain was taught, I had a strong sense that the hull was extraordinarily rigid, even at that very early stage! While all this was happening the bottom of my hull was just sitting on the ground. There were a few props on both sides; but they were only there to stop the whole thing rolling over on the kids. It certainly wasn't level in all directions or anything. To determine if the lengths of timber resting on the bulwark pipe were parallel with each other I simply eyeballed their underside, and I levered the chain tighter or looser until they all looked parallel with each other. Checking the "parallelness" (is that a word?!) of the lengths of timber by sight is more than accurate enough. Cheers ... Kim.| 30389|30364|2013-07-23 22:44:28|wild_explorer|Re: Origami hull's references|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > Not sure what you mean by "BRACE the hull from the inside without putting decks on"; but the chain I've described above might be considered a (flexible) internal brace. When the twist was removed and the chain was taught, I had a strong sense that the hull was extraordinarily rigid, even at that very early stage! > Under "bracing the hull from inside" I mean to make hull rigid by means of cables, comealongs or flat bars (similar to X or V bracing to keep rectangular frames' sides at 90 deg). Even with side decks on now, and seams cut between side decks and foredeck, bow become very wobbly. I had to X-brace it by 2 comealongs (from upper foredeck hull's sides location to opposite fore darts location). It made that area fairly stable and allows to remove twist from bow area. Why all this troubles? I plan to move boat to another location and I do not want to put cabin's sides before I move. I need to lift hull from the ground as well (about 18-24"). Hull might be twisted again during lifting or transporting and I want to be able to recheck for twist at new location. Looks like joining side decks to foredeck and transom deck makes hull more rigid (especially in longitudinal direction). Without it - it twists/moves. > To determine if the lengths of timber resting on the bulwark pipe were parallel with each other I simply eyeballed their underside, and I levered the chain tighter or looser until they all looked parallel with each other. Checking the "parallelness" (is that a word?!) of the lengths of timber by sight is more than accurate enough. > It turned out that one source of error was 12ft 4x4 timber (last more or less straight one I had) - the ends have different size. So, it did not give correct reference resting on bulwark pipes. As you noted, eyeballing for parallelism is very accurate, but you need to have dependable references (straight metal pipes, rectangular/square tubes, angles). Probably square or rectangular tubes are more practical - it will not roll along bulwark pipes. All my timbers got twisted or distorted - not good anymore for use as straight edge.| 30390|30364|2013-07-24 21:01:05|JOHN|Re: Origami hull's references|Wild,seems like straight timbers or 2" pipe placed fore and aft of cabin location would be good location to indicate amount of twist? Perhaps even place them even farther apart, ie: aft one right at transom and fwd one closer to bow? eye balling at that point should indicate amount of twist and which direction to pull the hull? Did you scribe fit the decks? or use cnc? and pull hull to fit. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer wrote: > > Thanks Kim for detailed explanation. I have some comments/questions - see below... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Wild ... > > > > I think the thing to remember is that, initially, removing twist from the hull, and making the hull level in all directions, are two completely separate things. > > > > I agree with that. I did not pay much attention to leveling the hull in transverse direction as well when I was removing hull's twist. However, you need to use some reference to check hull's twist anyway. Usually it is midships' timber. And midships has less vertical movement (as rotational plane) during twist removal. So, transverse leveling of midships could be only beneficial. It might need some after-leveling, but hull should be close to transverse level after twist removal. It is just easier to keep hull from tipping on the side, because hull's center of gravity suppose to be aligned with centerline - less load on side supports. > > > > In the photo I mentioned earlier ( http://smu.gs/118aajE ), the chain inside the hull was tightened until the lengths of timber resting on the bulwark pipe were parallel with each other. At that stage, the lengths of timber didn't have to also be horizontal as well - they just had to be parallel with each other. Once parallel with each other, there could be no twist in the hull. > > > > Looking at the picture of anchor points, it looks like you had only twist between bow and midships. Is it correct? > > > > Once the side-decks were welded in place, only then did I make the hull level in all directions, and I then started to weld on the cabin sides. > > > > Maybe you are trying to get too many things level at the same time? I certainly don't think you could remove twist in an origami hull using props from the outside. > > > > Without decks, you can remove hull's twist just with outside supports. But I am interested if it is possible to BRACE the hull from the inside without putting decks on. > > > The above procedure could probably only be used for building origami boats; but it worked absolutely perfectly for me. > > > > It would be nice to have some sketch in Brent's book how to remove the twist and where to put anchor points. Placing anchoring points looks counter-intuitive at first... > | 30391|30364|2013-07-25 00:54:33|wild_explorer|Re: Origami hull's references|Straight timber will work (if you find one with uniform dimensions). It looks like having 2" (sch 40?) pipes should be in material list as first items (together with steel). I use smaller diameter pipes, heavy angles, etc. Some are heavy to lift, some sags over 10-12ft, but usable for eye balling. My decks were CNC cut and I adjusted the hull to fit decks. I did not notice twist at that stage (I was checking it). As I see now, side decks only maintain the shape of the sides of the hull. Twist is separate issue - fixable... It is just harder to correct it with cabin sides on, because it goes from midships to foredeck and does not allow to have extra reference at fore dart point. Foredeck and outer edge of side decks to bulwark settings affects installation of cabin sides as well. So, I need to double check everything. Starting with "no twist in the hull for sure" ;) Interesting, that spirit level gives consistent reading only on heavy angles (which do not sag/flex). Even on 4x4 timber it gives different reading on opposite sides of bulwark. At this time I use only 3 far apart references (similar what you suggested (MS, transom, bow). I will re-check twist removal adjustment later with 2 more references at darts and 1 more at bow). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "JOHN" wrote: > > Wild,seems like straight timbers or 2" pipe placed fore and aft of cabin location would be good location to indicate amount of twist? Perhaps even place them even farther apart, ie: aft one right at transom and fwd one closer to bow? eye balling at that point should indicate amount of twist and which direction to pull the hull? > > Did you scribe fit the decks? or use cnc? and pull hull to fit. > > John | 30392|30392|2013-07-30 14:38:10|inter4905|side of single keel thickness|Brent, What would be the minimum thickness you would suggest for the sides of a single keel if it is going to be used as a fuel tank in its rear section. Martin| 30393|30392|2013-07-30 16:58:48|brentswain38|Re: side of single keel thickness|I prefer 1/4 inch. Is it a full length keel, or shorter? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Brent, > > What would be the minimum thickness you would suggest for the sides of a single keel if it is going to be used as a fuel tank in its rear section. > > Martin > | 30394|30392|2013-07-30 17:15:36|martin demers|Re: side of single keel thickness|It is a 12 ft long keel, I am replating only the rear section, around 5 1/2 ft long. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:58:46 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness I prefer 1/4 inch. Is it a full length keel, or shorter? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Brent, > > What would be the minimum thickness you would suggest for the sides of a single keel if it is going to be used as a fuel tank in its rear section. > > Martin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30395|30392|2013-07-31 20:04:58|M.J. Malone|Re: side of single keel thickness|martin demers wrote: It is a 12 ft long keel, I am replating only the rear section, around 5 1/2 ft long. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:58:46 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness I prefer 1/4 inch. Is it a full length keel, or shorter? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Brent, > > What would be the minimum thickness you would suggest for the sides of a single keel if it is going to be used as a fuel tank in its rear section. > > Martin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 30396|30392|2013-07-31 20:05:04|M.J. Malone|Re: side of single keel thickness|martin demers wrote: It is a 12 ft long keel, I am replating only the rear section, around 5 1/2 ft long. Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:58:46 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness I prefer 1/4 inch. Is it a full length keel, or shorter? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Brent, > > What would be the minimum thickness you would suggest for the sides of a single keel if it is going to be used as a fuel tank in its rear section. > > Martin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 30397|30392|2013-08-01 21:03:23|brentswain38|Re: side of single keel thickness|I'd use 1/4nch plate. My single keels are 12 ft long so that is not too far aft. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > > > martin demers wrote: > > It is a 12 ft long keel, > I am replating only the rear section, around 5 1/2 ft long. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:58:46 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I prefer 1/4 inch. Is it a full length keel, or shorter? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > What would be the minimum thickness you would suggest for the sides of a single keel if it is going to be used as a fuel tank in its rear section. > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > | 30398|30398|2013-08-03 07:02:24|jhess314|I'm trying to remember?|Why does Brent keep harping on about steel hulls? http://blogs.seattletimes.com/popcornandprejudice/2013/08/02/redford-in-all-is-lost/| 30399|30399|2013-08-03 07:34:48|James Pronk|Re: I'm trying to remember?|Looks like a great movie to see. One that if you own a steel boat, you can go home and sleep well, and if not you can wake-up in a cold sweat! James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30400|30400|2013-08-03 08:19:34|Ralph|Front hatch position|Brent and Â… , Can I avoid having the front hatch above the fore peak berth, by moving the hatch closer towards the mast. Would a half foot forward of the mast be possible, from constructive point of view, or what would it's closest position to the mast be? I'm building a BS 36'.| 30401|30400|2013-08-05 17:44:25|brentswain38|Re: Front hatch position|Ralph A half a foot would be no problem. You should put some flatbars on edge between the web and the first deck beam behind the mast, as it can flex a bit there when beating to windward. How's progress? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" wrote: > > Brent and Â… , Can I avoid having the front hatch above the fore peak berth, by moving the hatch closer towards the mast. Would a half foot forward of the mast be possible, from constructive point of view, or what would it's closest position to the mast be? > > I'm building a BS 36'. > | 30402|30392|2013-08-05 20:08:14|martin demers|Re: side of single keel thickness|do you mean that you would go thicker if more aft? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 01:03:20 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness I'd use 1/4nch plate. My single keels are 12 ft long so that is not too far aft. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > > > martin demers wrote: > > It is a 12 ft long keel, > I am replating only the rear section, around 5 1/2 ft long. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:58:46 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I prefer 1/4 inch. Is it a full length keel, or shorter? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > What would be the minimum thickness you would suggest for the sides of a single keel if it is going to be used as a fuel tank in its rear section. > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30403|30400|2013-08-06 16:36:22|Ralph|Re: Front hatch position|Working full time: keels support, propeller shaft tube, roof supports, welding ss bulwark. Water tank is in, skeg is in its place. It is a lot of work, making long days. Welding all steel on steel with 6010 1/8" and I love it. Tried 3/16 but it seems not worth it. The 309 is more difficult, must have patience but still little holes in the welds. Is the front hatch just in front of the mast a good place for it? I like the dry bed guaranty and the opening over the storage space. But if you say it flexes, what does that do with the sealing capacity of the hatch and another thing is do I need the deck around the mast to work on, maybe a hatch there is not practical from that point of view. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Ralph > A half a foot would be no problem. You should put some flatbars on edge between the web and the first deck beam behind the mast, as it can flex a bit there when beating to windward. > How's progress? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" wrote: > > > > Brent and Â… , Can I avoid having the front hatch above the fore peak berth, by moving the hatch closer towards the mast. Would a half foot forward of the mast be possible, from constructive point of view, or what would it's closest position to the mast be? > > > > I'm building a BS 36'. > > > | 30404|30400|2013-08-06 17:38:17|Paul Wilson|Re: Front hatch position|My hatch is about 6 inches in front of the mast and it works well. When I am offshore or sailing the hatch is normally closed so working around the mast is no problem. I normally put a scoop up to catch the wind. It blocks out most of the rain at anchor but if some rain does happen to get through it doesn't end up on the bunk. Have fun building, good luck. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 6/08/2013 4:36 p.m., Ralph wrote: > > Working full time: keels support, propeller shaft tube, roof supports, > welding ss bulwark. Water tank is in, skeg is in its place. It is a > lot of work, making long days. Welding all steel on steel with 6010 > 1/8" and I love it. Tried 3/16 but it seems not worth it. The 309 is > more difficult, must have patience but still little holes in the welds. > > Is the front hatch just in front of the mast a good place for it? I > like the dry bed guaranty and the opening over the storage space. But > if you say it flexes, what does that do with the sealing capacity of > the hatch and another thing is do I need the deck around the mast to > work on, maybe a hatch there is not practical from that point of view. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Ralph > > A half a foot would be no problem. You should put some flatbars on > edge between the web and the first deck beam behind the mast, as it > can flex a bit there when beating to windward. > > How's progress? > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Ralph" wrote: > > > > > > Brent and … , Can I avoid having the front hatch above the fore > peak berth, by moving the hatch closer towards the mast. Would a half > foot forward of the mast be possible, from constructive point of view, > or what would it's closest position to the mast be? > > > > > > I'm building a BS 36'. > > > > > > > | 30405|30398|2013-08-07 00:35:26|steve|Re: I'm trying to remember?|steel hull and a jordan drogue --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > Why does Brent keep harping on about steel hulls? > > http://blogs.seattletimes.com/popcornandprejudice/2013/08/02/redford-in-all-is-lost/ > | 30406|30400|2013-08-07 18:36:55|hoop6464|Re: Front hatch position|Link for weld porosity correction: http://www.thefabricator.com/article/arcwelding/22-possible-causes-of-weld-metal-porosity Sent from my iPad On Aug 6, 2013, at 13:36, "Ralph" wrote: > Working full time: keels support, propeller shaft tube, roof supports, welding ss bulwark. Water tank is in, skeg is in its place. It is a lot of work, making long days. Welding all steel on steel with 6010 1/8" and I love it. Tried 3/16 but it seems not worth it. The 309 is more difficult, must have patience but still little holes in the welds. > > Is the front hatch just in front of the mast a good place for it? I like the dry bed guaranty and the opening over the storage space. But if you say it flexes, what does that do with the sealing capacity of the hatch and another thing is do I need the deck around the mast to work on, maybe a hatch there is not practical from that point of view. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Ralph > > A half a foot would be no problem. You should put some flatbars on edge between the web and the first deck beam behind the mast, as it can flex a bit there when beating to windward. > > How's progress? > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" wrote: > > > > > > Brent and … , Can I avoid having the front hatch above the fore peak berth, by moving the hatch closer towards the mast. Would a half foot forward of the mast be possible, from constructive point of view, or what would it's closest position to the mast be? > > > > > > I'm building a BS 36'. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30407|30392|2013-08-07 18:40:12|brentswain38|Re: side of single keel thickness|No, I was concerned about too much weight in the stern. A 12 ft long keel wouldn't have that problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > do you mean that you would go thicker if more aft? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 01:03:20 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd use 1/4nch plate. My single keels are 12 ft long so that is not too far aft. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > martin demers wrote: > > > > > > It is a 12 ft long keel, > > > I am replating only the rear section, around 5 1/2 ft long. > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:58:46 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I prefer 1/4 inch. Is it a full length keel, or shorter? > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What would be the minimum thickness you would suggest for the sides of a single keel if it is going to be used as a fuel tank in its rear section. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30408|30398|2013-08-07 18:44:50|brentswain38|Re: I'm trying to remember?|Steve has just sailed his BS 36 twin keeler from rounding Cape Horn to the Aleutians, where he took a full gale for several days , so he is speaking from very recent experience. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > steel hull and a jordan drogue > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > > > Why does Brent keep harping on about steel hulls? > > > > http://blogs.seattletimes.com/popcornandprejudice/2013/08/02/redford-in-all-is-lost/ > > > | 30409|30400|2013-08-07 18:51:37|brentswain38|Re: Front hatch position|Bear in mind that the back of your hatch coaming is a beam on edge. structurally, stronger and deeper than your deck beams, so it spreads the load over the width of your forehatch. You could connect the ends of this with beams under the ends of the forehatch to your cabinsides with beams inside. A 36 crossing the Indian ocean had cracks at the aft end of the doubler plate for the mast step ,the first time that has ever happened, so I put flat bars on edge, fore and aft under that point to the first deck beam aft of the doubler plate, on the last boat I built. Pumping of the mast must have flexed it a bit there. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" wrote: > > Working full time: keels support, propeller shaft tube, roof supports, welding ss bulwark. Water tank is in, skeg is in its place. It is a lot of work, making long days. Welding all steel on steel with 6010 1/8" and I love it. Tried 3/16 but it seems not worth it. The 309 is more difficult, must have patience but still little holes in the welds. > > Is the front hatch just in front of the mast a good place for it? I like the dry bed guaranty and the opening over the storage space. But if you say it flexes, what does that do with the sealing capacity of the hatch and another thing is do I need the deck around the mast to work on, maybe a hatch there is not practical from that point of view. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Ralph > > A half a foot would be no problem. You should put some flatbars on edge between the web and the first deck beam behind the mast, as it can flex a bit there when beating to windward. > > How's progress? > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" wrote: > > > > > > Brent and Â… , Can I avoid having the front hatch above the fore peak berth, by moving the hatch closer towards the mast. Would a half foot forward of the mast be possible, from constructive point of view, or what would it's closest position to the mast be? > > > > > > I'm building a BS 36'. > > > > > > | 30410|30392|2013-08-07 19:42:25|martin demers|Re: side of single keel thickness|I see, ok thanks! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 22:40:10 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness No, I was concerned about too much weight in the stern. A 12 ft long keel wouldn't have that problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > do you mean that you would go thicker if more aft? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 01:03:20 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd use 1/4nch plate. My single keels are 12 ft long so that is not too far aft. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > martin demers wrote: > > > > > > It is a 12 ft long keel, > > > I am replating only the rear section, around 5 1/2 ft long. > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:58:46 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I prefer 1/4 inch. Is it a full length keel, or shorter? > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What would be the minimum thickness you would suggest for the sides of a single keel if it is going to be used as a fuel tank in its rear section. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30411|30400|2013-08-08 00:59:44|Doug Jackson|Hydraulic Helms|Some of you good folks must have experience with hydraulic helm pumps.   I've been looking at variable displacement pumps, and specifically two pumps that have the same 1000 psi max pressure rating and each capable of 5 cu in.  But one will say it's for boats up to 35 feet and the other will say it's for boat up to 65 feet.  What makes one that different from the other?    And would it make sense to use 2 smaller pumps chain driven together for redundancy.  Or is the reliability of these pumps really good and/or complete failure that rare? Thanks  Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30412|30400|2013-08-08 01:35:50|Paul Wilson|Re: Hydraulic Helms|My guess is it is the torque or power that the seal and the ram can withstand in general use..... Teleflex/ Capilano seem to be really common but my friend switched his ram to a Kobelt and is much happier with it. With full time cruising he seemed to be rebuilding the Teleflex ram every second year. Most hydraulics are extremely reliable but they are known to leak on the seals after awhile.....usually either on the shaft seal on the wheel or on the ram. If you keep everything clean, and don't let it corrode, hydraulics should be very little problem. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 8/08/2013 12:59 a.m., Doug Jackson wrote: > > Some of you good folks must have experience with hydraulic helm pumps. > I've been looking at variable displacement pumps, and specifically two > pumps that have the same 1000 psi max pressure rating and each capable > of 5 cu in. But one will say it's for boats up to 35 feet and the > other will say it's for boat up to 65 feet. What makes one that > different from the other? > > And would it make sense to use 2 smaller pumps chain driven together > for redundancy. Or is the reliability of these pumps really good > and/or complete failure that rare? > > Thanks > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 30413|30413|2013-08-08 02:54:29|Ralph|Cockpit coaming|Does the cockpit coaming connects with the bulwark? It seems not practical because it creates a small corner where no maintenance can be done. But how else is the water on deck guided overboard, how much water are we speaking about? Or do I leave two inches space there, is that small enough to keep the cockpit and sitting crew dry?| 30414|30400|2013-08-08 18:16:31|Doug Jackson|Re: Hydraulic Helms|Thanks Paul Those are the pumps we've been looking at.  We appreciate the input.   Doug SVSeeker.com ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 8, 2013 12:34 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Helms My guess is it is the torque or power that the seal and the ram can withstand in general use..... Teleflex/ Capilano seem to be really common but my friend switched his ram to a Kobelt and is much happier with it. With full time cruising he seemed to be rebuilding the Teleflex ram every second year. Most hydraulics are extremely reliable but they are known to leak on the seals after awhile.....usually either on the shaft seal on the wheel or on the ram. If you keep everything clean, and don't let it corrode, hydraulics should be very little problem. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >   >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 8/08/2013 12:59 a.m., Doug Jackson wrote: > > Some of you good folks must have experience with hydraulic helm pumps. > I've been looking at variable displacement pumps, and specifically two > pumps that have the same 1000 psi max pressure rating and each capable > of 5 cu in. But one will say it's for boats up to 35 feet and the > other will say it's for boat up to 65 feet. What makes one that > different from the other? > > And would it make sense to use 2 smaller pumps chain driven together > for redundancy. Or is the reliability of these pumps really good > and/or complete failure that rare? > > Thanks > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30415|30415|2013-08-12 07:54:55|jhess314|why sandblast interior?|Not having built a steel boat, if you managed to build a boat without allowing rust to form on the inside of the boat, would you still need to sandblast the interior prior to painting? Is it necessary to remove the mill scale before painting? Why? Thanks, John| 30416|30413|2013-08-13 01:38:38|Ralph|Re: Cockpit coaming|Cockpit coaming ends in front of a big scupper, two-three inches from the bulwark, Â…. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" wrote: > > Does the cockpit coaming connects with the bulwark? > It seems not practical because it creates a small corner where no maintenance can be done. But how else is the water on deck guided overboard, how much water are we speaking about? Or do I leave two inches space there, is that small enough to keep the cockpit and sitting crew dry? > | 30417|1509|2013-08-15 16:52:49|Dan|Insulation|I haven't read much on the pros/cons of spraying foam insulation (closed cell or open cell) directly on the steel interior of the hull. Any Advise?| 30418|1509|2013-08-15 17:00:00|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|Make sure you have at least three thick coats of epoxy tar on all steel before spray foaming. Foam itself doesn't protect the steel adequately, and spray foaming over bare steel or primer is the main cause of many boats rusting out from the inside. A piece of steel the size of your fingernail poking thru the foam will drip like a faucet, so make sure very bit of steel has at least a half inch of foam over it. Before you let the spray foamer leave, double and triple check for any missed spots. Put in lots of firing strips, the more the better. Keep foam out of the bilge, water needs a place to drain out of the foam. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Dan" wrote: > > I haven't read much on the pros/cons of spraying foam insulation (closed cell or open cell) directly on the steel interior of the hull. Any Advise? > | 30419|30400|2013-08-15 17:03:49|brentswain38|Re: Hydraulic Helms|By using an outboard rudder and a trim tab steering, you can often eliminate the need for hydraulics, on many boats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Some of you good folks must have experience with hydraulic helm pumps.   I've been looking at variable displacement pumps, and specifically two pumps that have the same 1000 psi max pressure rating and each capable of 5 cu in.  But one will say it's for boats up to 35 feet and the other will say it's for boat up to 65 feet.  What makes one that different from the other?    > > And would it make sense to use 2 smaller pumps chain driven together for redundancy.  Or is the reliability of these pumps really good and/or complete failure that rare? > > Thanks  > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30420|1509|2013-08-15 17:05:34|Paul Wilson|Re: Insulation|I saw a Folkes in Thailand for sale. It had been well maintained but had pinholes all over the hull caused by rusting from the inside. It was a total write-off. I believe it was foam over bare steel. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 15/08/2013 4:59 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Make sure you have at least three thick coats of epoxy tar on all > steel before spray foaming. Foam itself doesn't protect the steel > adequately, and spray foaming over bare steel or primer is the main > cause of many boats rusting out from the inside. A piece of steel the > size of your fingernail poking thru the foam will drip like a faucet, > so make sure very bit of steel has at least a half inch of foam over > it. Before you let the spray foamer leave, double and triple check for > any missed spots. Put in lots of firing strips, the more the better. > Keep foam out of the bilge, water needs a place to drain out of the foam. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Dan" wrote: > > > > I haven't read much on the pros/cons of spraying foam insulation > (closed cell or open cell) directly on the steel interior of the hull. > Any Advise? > > > > | 30421|30413|2013-08-15 17:06:34|brentswain38|Re: Cockpit coaming|I put the scupper in front of the end of the cockpit coaming, so any water on the side decks is sent overboard by the end of the cockpit coaming, thru the big scupper. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" wrote: > > Cockpit coaming ends in front of a big scupper, two-three inches from the bulwark, Â…. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" wrote: > > > > Does the cockpit coaming connects with the bulwark? > > It seems not practical because it creates a small corner where no maintenance can be done. But how else is the water on deck guided overboard, how much water are we speaking about? Or do I leave two inches space there, is that small enough to keep the cockpit and sitting crew dry? > > > | 30422|1509|2013-08-16 16:09:42|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|Most Foulkes and Fehr boas have zero paint under the foam ,and rust under the foam quickly and severely. They also had 1/8th inch keel sides with zero paint inside.Amazons only had a thin coat of primer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I saw a Folkes in Thailand for sale. It had been well maintained but had > pinholes all over the hull caused by rusting from the inside. It was a > total write-off. I believe it was foam over bare steel. Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 15/08/2013 4:59 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Make sure you have at least three thick coats of epoxy tar on all > > steel before spray foaming. Foam itself doesn't protect the steel > > adequately, and spray foaming over bare steel or primer is the main > > cause of many boats rusting out from the inside. A piece of steel the > > size of your fingernail poking thru the foam will drip like a faucet, > > so make sure very bit of steel has at least a half inch of foam over > > it. Before you let the spray foamer leave, double and triple check for > > any missed spots. Put in lots of firing strips, the more the better. > > Keep foam out of the bilge, water needs a place to drain out of the foam. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Dan" wrote: > > > > > > I haven't read much on the pros/cons of spraying foam insulation > > (closed cell or open cell) directly on the steel interior of the hull. > > Any Advise? > > > > > > > > | 30423|1509|2013-08-16 17:16:43|Paul Wilson|Re: Insulation|That is shameful practice. It was well known 30 years ago that steel rusts under the foam. I didn't know that Amazons only used primer under the foam. Some of these commercial builders really suck. This is what gives steel boats a bad name. They don't deserve a higher resale value than home builders. The best boats I have ever seen have been home built boats. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 16/08/2013 4:09 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > Most Foulkes and Fehr boas have zero paint under the foam ,and rust > under the foam quickly and severely. They also had 1/8th inch keel > sides with zero paint inside.Amazons only had a thin coat of primer. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I saw a Folkes in Thailand for sale. It had been well maintained but > had > > pinholes all over the hull caused by rusting from the inside. It was a > > total write-off. I believe it was foam over bare steel. Paul > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. | 30424|30392|2013-08-17 09:46:15|martin demers|Re: side of single keel thickness|Some people use 3/8in plate for the sides, it probably adds a lot of weight. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 01:03:20 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness I'd use 1/4nch plate. My single keels are 12 ft long so that is not too far aft. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > > > martin demers wrote: > > It is a 12 ft long keel, > I am replating only the rear section, around 5 1/2 ft long. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:58:46 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I prefer 1/4 inch. Is it a full length keel, or shorter? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > What would be the minimum thickness you would suggest for the sides of a single keel if it is going to be used as a fuel tank in its rear section. > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30425|30392|2013-08-17 09:48:29|martin demers|Re: side of single keel thickness|I wanted to by 5/16in plate, since I already have 1/4in plate I will use it then. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 01:03:20 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness I'd use 1/4nch plate. My single keels are 12 ft long so that is not too far aft. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > > > martin demers wrote: > > It is a 12 ft long keel, > I am replating only the rear section, around 5 1/2 ft long. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:58:46 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: side of single keel thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I prefer 1/4 inch. Is it a full length keel, or shorter? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > What would be the minimum thickness you would suggest for the sides of a single keel if it is going to be used as a fuel tank in its rear section. > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30426|30426|2013-08-18 10:03:36|gerd.finger|Convert ISUZU 1.5 l Diesel Engine|Dear all, has anyone experinece in converting the 1.5 l ISUZU Diesel engine (4EC1), atmospheric aspiration, into a boat diesel? I think this engine has some interesting advantages: - Its a simple design (no turbo, no common rail) - Its pretty common (Opel Corsa B, ISUZU Gemini, Holden XY, Vauxhall Corsa) - Exhaust is on one side, air intake on the other (makes fitting a water coold exhaust easy) The 1.7 l (4EE1) might do as well. What are your opinions? Cheers, Gerd.| 30427|1509|2013-08-18 21:06:04|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|Absolutely the best boats are those built by a conscientious homebuilder. Ditto most sailing hardware. A friend, recently retired form West Martine , told me their founder and CEO decided to go cruising, entirely outfitted with West Marine gear. It broke almost daily. When he got back, he called a meeting of their suppliers and manufacturers. He screamed at them "My customers are not your guinea pigs. " He was shocked at the kind of crap they had been selling people. The suppliers and manufacturers where horrified. If West Marine started refusing to sell their gear, it would mean bankruptcy for many of them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > That is shameful practice. It was well known 30 years ago that steel > rusts under the foam. I didn't know that Amazons only used primer under > the foam. > > Some of these commercial builders really suck. This is what gives steel > boats a bad name. They don't deserve a higher resale value than home > builders. The best boats I have ever seen have been home built boats. > > Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 16/08/2013 4:09 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Most Foulkes and Fehr boas have zero paint under the foam ,and rust > > under the foam quickly and severely. They also had 1/8th inch keel > > sides with zero paint inside.Amazons only had a thin coat of primer. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > I saw a Folkes in Thailand for sale. It had been well maintained but > > had > > > pinholes all over the hull caused by rusting from the inside. It was a > > > total write-off. I believe it was foam over bare steel. Paul > > > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > | 30428|1509|2013-08-18 21:38:06|Paul Wilson|Re: Insulation|True....I met the family in Fiji when they spent some time in Savusavu. He was really fed up with constant breakages but you wouldn't know it from the West Marine site. He was reliant on complex gear with an overly complex electrical system. Every time it broke down it was another expensive DHL shipment to get a replacement part in to the country. Paul http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CruisingJournalsView?langId=-1&storeId=11151&catalogId=10001&page=Randy-Repass http://www.wyliecat.com/about/about_wylie66.html >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 18/08/2013 9:06 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > Absolutely the best boats are those built by a conscientious > homebuilder. Ditto most sailing hardware. > A friend, recently retired form West Martine , told me their founder > and CEO decided to go cruising, entirely outfitted with West Marine > gear. It broke almost daily. When he got back, he called a meeting of > their suppliers and manufacturers. He screamed at them "My customers > are not your guinea pigs. " He was shocked at the kind of crap they > had been selling people. The suppliers and manufacturers where > horrified. If West Marine started refusing to sell their gear, it > would mean bankruptcy for many of them. | 30429|1509|2013-08-19 00:39:22|Doug Jackson|Galvanized Rudder|What's the rules about galvanized parts below the waterline?  Sacrificial anodes are made of zinc and of course are sacrificed,  but zinc rich primer is a good thing?  How does that work?  And if zinc rich primer is good, what about a hot dipped rudder? Doug SVSeeker.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30430|1509|2013-08-19 13:56:33|scott|Re: Insulation|I have known the last 5 or so managers of the local west marine store. My picture of west marine through their experiences and some of my friends under them has been pretty bad. They treat their employees like shit. Lots of promises but little follow up. I get the feel mostly that they are in the business of making money at any cost and devil take the hindmost. Just the feel I get from listening to the lower echelons talk and some of the stuff I have seen as a customer. I'm very careful what I purchase from them or anywhere else as far as quality is concerned, at least where I can find out reviews or others experiences. You can usually tell those companies that have a serious quality product and customer orientation, it comes from the top down. West marine doesn't have that. I once filled out one of their surveys on the local store and said that I thought they could have more sailing oriented hardware in the store but that I thought the management and employees were just great. Sadly even though the corporate sets a lot of the stocking policies they absolutely blasted the manager because a customer had a complaint. It wasn't actually a complaint but just a "I wish you had" point I had written. The manager a few weeks before told me he wished he could expand that section but wasn't allowed to. Hows that for life sucking. Not allowed to but punished because a customer asked for it. No winning there. That is the sort of thing that shows what upper managements ethos is all about. West Marine has failed at a corporate level in just about everything I have been witness to. At the store level I have known some really good people that tried their hardest though. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > True....I met the family in Fiji when they spent some time in Savusavu. > He was really fed up with constant breakages but you wouldn't know it > from the West Marine site. He was reliant on complex gear with an overly > complex electrical system. Every time it broke down it was another > expensive DHL shipment to get a replacement part in to the country. Paul > > http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CruisingJournalsView?langId=-1&storeId=11151&catalogId=10001&page=Randy-Repass > > http://www.wyliecat.com/about/about_wylie66.html > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 18/08/2013 9:06 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > Absolutely the best boats are those built by a conscientious > > homebuilder. Ditto most sailing hardware. > > A friend, recently retired form West Martine , told me their founder > > and CEO decided to go cruising, entirely outfitted with West Marine > > gear. It broke almost daily. When he got back, he called a meeting of > > their suppliers and manufacturers. He screamed at them "My customers > > are not your guinea pigs. " He was shocked at the kind of crap they > > had been selling people. The suppliers and manufacturers where > > horrified. If West Marine started refusing to sell their gear, it > > would mean bankruptcy for many of them. > | 30431|30431|2013-08-21 12:21:19|inter4905|galvanized turnbuckles size|Hi Brent, Wich lenght of galvanized turnbuckles would you recomend in the 5/8 size, between 6 in, 9 in, and 12 in. long(those are the lenght inside the turnbuckle) the 6 in. comes back at a realy cheap price at around $10.00 Martin| 30432|1509|2013-08-22 00:24:36|brentswain38|Re: Galvanized Rudder|My rudder was made of hot galv plate . It kept shedding paint in sheets til the zinc was all gone. Zinc primer was les problematic , but when I finally sand blast I wont use zinc below the waterline . If your hull has zinc primer on it, it aint worth blasting off, initially. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > What's the rules about galvanized parts below the waterline?  Sacrificial anodes are made of zinc and of course are sacrificed,  but zinc rich primer is a good thing?  How does that work?  And if zinc rich primer is good, what about a hot dipped rudder? > > Doug > SVSeeker.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30433|30415|2013-08-22 00:28:08|brentswain38|Re: why sandblast interior?|On my last boat I put epoxy tar on clean mill scale . After 30 years the decks had rusted thru in places. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > Not having built a steel boat, if you managed to build a boat without allowing rust to form on the inside of the boat, would you still need to sandblast the interior prior to painting? Is it necessary to remove the mill scale before painting? Why? > > Thanks, John > | 30434|30415|2013-08-22 07:13:20|Robert Jones|Re: why sandblast interior?|Brent, do you consider your "30 years" until rust through a success, or would you blast for the next 30?? ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: why sandblast interior?   On my last boat I put epoxy tar on clean mill scale . After 30 years the decks had rusted thru in places. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > Not having built a steel boat, if you managed to build a boat without allowing rust to form on the inside of the boat, would you still need to sandblast the interior prior to painting? Is it necessary to remove the mill scale before painting? Why? > > Thanks, John > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30435|30415|2013-08-22 15:39:37|brentswain38|Re: why sandblast interior?|My current boat is 29 years old and the steel and epoxy under the foam is in perfect condition, anywhere I've checked it. Glad I don't have to worry about it at this point in time. 29 years goes by so fast. I sure don't feel like building another boat now.Yes I would sandblast it . Making a few big holes at the low points to blast the accumulation of sand out, to be welded up after blasting, is worth doing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jones wrote: > > Brent, do you consider your "30 years" until rust through a success, or would you blast for the next 30?? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:28 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: why sandblast interior? > > > >   > On my last boat I put epoxy tar on clean mill scale . After 30 years the decks had rusted thru in places. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhess314" wrote: > > > > Not having built a steel boat, if you managed to build a boat without allowing rust to form on the inside of the boat, would you still need to sandblast the interior prior to painting? Is it necessary to remove the mill scale before painting? Why? > > > > Thanks, John > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30436|30415|2013-08-22 16:59:45|Paul Wilson|Re: why sandblast interior?|I feel the same. Time flies. My 36 is about 25 years old now and has zero rust. I would be very upset if I had to sandblast the interior of my boat now so I would consider 30 years a failure. The only thing I have re-blasted is the bottom below the waterline about a year ago to get the old coatings off since I had some blisters. The topsides and decks are perfectly fine. I did a couple of spot blasts in the bilge once but it was very minor. I would think with properly prepared steel, multiple coats of epoxy, spray foam, and regular good maintenance, a steel boat should last 50 to 100 years. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 22/08/2013 3:39 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > My current boat is 29 years old and the steel and epoxy under the foam > is in perfect condition, anywhere I've checked it. Glad I don't have > to worry about it at this point in time. 29 years goes by so fast. I > sure don't feel like building another boat now.Yes I would sandblast > it . Making a few big holes at the low points to blast the > accumulation of sand out, to be welded up after blasting, is worth doing. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Robert Jones wrote: > > > > Brent, do you consider your "30 years" until rust through a success, > or would you blast for the next 30?? > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:28 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: why sandblast interior? > > > > > > > >  > > On my last boat I put epoxy tar on clean mill scale . After 30 years > the decks had rusted thru in places. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "jhess314" wrote: > > > > > > Not having built a steel boat, if you managed to build a boat > without allowing rust to form on the inside of the boat, would you > still need to sandblast the interior prior to painting? Is it > necessary to remove the mill scale before painting? Why? > > > > > > Thanks, John > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 30437|30415|2013-08-28 14:18:26|brentswain38|Re: why sandblast interior?|I just met another guy wit a Foulkes boat who, typically, had to replace a large amount of bow plate due to zero paint inside ,and the resulting internal corrosion . That makes two in the last week. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I feel the same. Time flies. My 36 is about 25 years old now and has > zero rust. I would be very upset if I had to sandblast the interior of > my boat now so I would consider 30 years a failure. The only thing I > have re-blasted is the bottom below the waterline about a year ago to > get the old coatings off since I had some blisters. The topsides and > decks are perfectly fine. I did a couple of spot blasts in the bilge > once but it was very minor. > > I would think with properly prepared steel, multiple coats of epoxy, > spray foam, and regular good maintenance, a steel boat should last 50 to > 100 years. Paul > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >Â…. > > On 22/08/2013 3:39 p.m., brentswain38 wrote: > > > > My current boat is 29 years old and the steel and epoxy under the foam > > is in perfect condition, anywhere I've checked it. Glad I don't have > > to worry about it at this point in time. 29 years goes by so fast. I > > sure don't feel like building another boat now.Yes I would sandblast > > it . Making a few big holes at the low points to blast the > > accumulation of sand out, to be welded up after blasting, is worth doing. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Robert Jones wrote: > > > > > > Brent, do you consider your "30 years" until rust through a success, > > or would you blast for the next 30?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:28 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: why sandblast interior? > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > On my last boat I put epoxy tar on clean mill scale . After 30 years > > the decks had rusted thru in places. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "jhess314" wrote: > > > > > > > > Not having built a steel boat, if you managed to build a boat > > without allowing rust to form on the inside of the boat, would you > > still need to sandblast the interior prior to painting? Is it > > necessary to remove the mill scale before painting? Why? > > > > > > > > Thanks, John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > | 30438|30438|2013-09-01 17:28:16|brentswain38|Yahoo site screwupos|Boy did yahoo ever screwup their chatlines ! They have done this with all their chatlines  ! They appear to have adopted the bureaucrat's creed! "If it ant broke, fix it until it is broke." I hope they fire the guy who's harebrained idea this was, when they see a huge drop in the number of hits on these sites.| 30439|30438|2013-09-01 18:29:44|martin demers|Re: Yahoo site screwupos|ah!ah! is it why the no activity on our group? Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 14:28:16 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Yahoo site screwupos Boy did yahoo ever screwup their chatlines ! They have done this with all their chatlines ! They appear to have adopted the bureaucrat's creed! "If it ant broke, fix it until it is broke." I hope they fire the guy who's harebrained idea this was, when they see a huge drop in the number of hits on these sites. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30440|30438|2013-09-01 21:26:19|j fisher|Re: Yahoo site screwupos|All the groups seem to hate the changes. I would expect some to be undone due to the amount of negative chatter and desire of several groups to leave yahoo. On Sep 1, 2013, at 5:30 PM, martin demers wrote: > ah!ah! > > is it why the no activity on our group? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 14:28:16 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Yahoo site screwupos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boy did yahoo ever screwup their chatlines ! They have done this with all their chatlines ! They appear to have adopted the bureaucrat's creed! "If it ant broke, fix it until it is broke." I hope they fire the guy who's harebrained idea this was, when they see a huge drop in the number of hits on these sites. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 30441|30438|2013-09-03 16:48:03|brentswain38|Re: Yahoo site screwupos|They have a picture of someone on a bike at the start. What does that have to do with boats? It is evidence on who's behind the screw-ups, and how he puts his interests ahead of everyone else's.  Fire the bastard! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: All the groups seem to hate the changes. I would expect some to be undone due to the amount of negative chatter and desire of several groups to leave yahoo. On Sep 1, 2013, at 5:30 PM, martin demers < mdemers2005@... > wrote: > ah!ah! > > is it why the no activity on our group? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 14:28:16 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Yahoo site screwupos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boy did yahoo ever screwup their chatlines ! They have done this with all their chatlines ! They appear to have adopted the bureaucrat's creed! "If it ant broke, fix it until it is broke." I hope they fire the guy who's harebrained idea this was, when they see a huge drop in the number of hits on these sites. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo ! Groups Links > > > | 30442|30438|2013-09-03 18:10:27|Paul Wilson|Re: Yahoo site screwupos|http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/03/yahoo_groups_neo_design_upsets_users/ 'Vile, unfriendly interface' attacked by world 3rd September 2013 Yahoo! has told thousands of users who are complaining about the Purple Palace's pisspoor redesign of its Groups service that it will not be rolled back to the old format - despite a huge outcry. The Marissa Mayer-run company revamped Yahoo! Groups last week, but it was immediately inundated with unhappy netizens who grumbled that the overhaul was glitchy, difficult to navigate and "severely degraded". In response, Yahoo! told its users: We deeply value how much you, our users, care about Yahoo! Groups ... we launched our first update to the Groups experience in several years and while these changes are an important step to building a more modern Groups experience, we recognise that this is a considerable change. We are listening to all of the community feedback and we are actively measuring user feedback so we can continuously make improvements. But the complaints have continued to flood in since Yahoo! made the tweak by changing its "classic" (read: ancient) interface to one dubbed "neo" that appeared to have been quickly spewed on to the interwebs with little testing before going live. And - while the company claimed it was listening closely to its users about the new look Yahoo! Groups - it has ignored pleas from thousands of people who want it to reverse the update. Yahoo! said in response to one unhappy camper on its official customer care Twitter account: "It is not possible to return to the old format." The Register has asked Yahoo! to explain what's gone wrong. But at the time of writing it hadn't returned our request for comment. El Reg understands that accessing the rebooted version of Yahoo! Groups on any browser initially led to all sorts of problems, with users reporting that they couldn't view messages properly and that it was impossible to make any changes to individual settings on the service. The company said it had - so far - fixed some but not all of the bugs submitted by its miserable userbase. >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 3/09/2013 4:48 p.m., brentswain38@... wrote: > > They have a picture of someone on a bike at the start. What does that > have to do with boats? It is evidence on who's behind the screw-ups, > and how he puts his interests ahead of everyone else's. Fire the > bastard! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , > wrote: > > All the groups seem to hate the changes. I would expect some to be > > undone due to the amount of negative chatter and desire of several > > groups to leave yahoo. > > On Sep 1, 2013, at 5:30 PM, martin demers < mdemers2005@... > > wrote: > > > ah!ah! > > > > > > is it why the no activity on our group? > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 14:28:16 -0700 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Yahoo site screwupos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boy did yahoo ever screwup their chatlines ! They have done this > with all their chatlines ! They appear to have adopted the > bureaucrat's creed! "If it ant broke, fix it until it is broke." I > hope they fire the guy who's harebrained idea this was, when they see > a huge drop in the number of hits on these sites. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > | 30443|30443|2013-09-04 09:26:47|ka0tp|Alternate Discussion method?| As a Ham radio operator,I talk HF SSB, also a lot of VHF FM similar to Marine VHF radios. (In fact many Ham radios can work on Marine VHF also) Many of the members on this forum are by VHF repeaters that can be linked together via IRLP.   It would be pretty simple to arrange a time each week to meet on the air for a discussion.   The IRLP Reflectors allow a round table discussion from around the world. Bermuda, Antigua, Wellington and other cruising destinations I have talked to from Portland,   At least, those who are Hams should look into what Node is available near them and Publish the node number for others who have questions and want to talk boats.   Tom - KA0TP Portland Node 7959   147.040+ Mhz.  | 30444|30443|2013-09-04 11:38:21|Matt Malone|Re: Alternate Discussion method?| You ham operators talk a different language.  I could swim through google for a while to figure out what you said, but, it comes down to, many people simply cannot get a ham licence.   This is a thorn in the side to some boat enthusiasts who hear the idle banter on the ham frequencies and know, they would have better uses for the airwaves but are denied.   Speed is the key.   When I was young, I worked at a grocery store in the summer, and there were two express-line cashiers who could 1) remember the price of everything in a grocery store, and 2) type it into the click-key cash register faster than any laser check-out scanner operator I have seen since.   They had a particular talent for fast.   They thought the other cashiers who were slower were "slow witted", i.e. stupid, so, did not qualify for the express lane.    I see the same arrogance now in gamers who live in their parent's basement.   To get a ham licence in my country, I have to learn Morse code both send and receive at a certain rate.   If one has always had a problem doing hand-ear-hand things fast, for instance, writing down someone's name as they speed-spell it verbally, their chances of ever passing the ham tests are zero.  I know there is now a limited transmit licence with a slower Morse test.  Great, hypothetically, it keeps slow Morse people from transmitting on the better frequency range, so others are not bored by the slow pace of their idle banter Morse, like anyone would use Morse for idle banter, or care if they missed some.   I believe I understand the justification for the Morse speed test -- in a hypothetical emergency, when a sender cannot receive (to be asked to please slow down) and cannot send voice or any other medium, they can tap Morse at a "normal" rate and anyone who hears them will be able to decode it.   The test makes sure you, as a receiver, can do the job.  As a sender, I doubt if I am tapping out letters at a snail's pace in an emergency (boat sinking) any reasonable person is going to criticize my Morse, so, the test really does not cut the other way.  Now, lets ask, in that situation, would it be better if there were many more ears out there, more on boats possibly near me, to potentially hear my emergency message, and the cost is, the sender must tap slowly, or it is better the way it is ?  Seems better to me if there were no speed test for Morse, and a larger number of responsible people were allowed to legally use the ham frequencies, so they would be more likely to be listening.   I know many hams believe those who cannot do Morse fast are stupid or something.  Both idle banter and functional messaging on ham is forever closed to them because of the Morse speed test, all for a hypothetical.   Idle banter never interested me, but, being able to legally contact a station from further out than VHF permitted would be really handy.   I know lots of people have ham transceivers in their boat, to listen from time to time, receive etc, with a plan to transmit only if there were an emergency, until the ham rules become more sensible.   Until then, a lot of boaters are choosing expensive satellite-based subscription locate services.  Those services mostly contact people on land, not people close, in the water where radio has distinct advantages.  This leaves the very useful and free-to-use ham bands silent or turned off for people who could really use them or be of use because of them.   Instead, the bands are dominated by idle banter...        So, how about we post our idle banter about boats, with people from around the world, in here ?   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: TDPOPP@...Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 09:26:46 -0400Subject: [origamiboats] Alternate Discussion method?   As a Ham radio operator,I talk HF SSB, also a lot of VHF FM similar to Marine VHF radios. (In fact many Ham radios can work on Marine VHF also) Many of the members on this forum are by VHF repeaters that can be linked together via IRLP.   It would be pretty simple to arrange a time each week to meet on the air for a discussion.   The IRLP Reflectors allow a round table discussion from around the world. Bermuda, Antigua, Wellington and other cruising destinations I have talked to from Portland,   At least, those who are Hams should look into what Node is available near them and Publish the node number for others who have questions and want to talk boats.   Tom - KA0TP Portland Node 7959   147.040+ Mhz.   | 30445|30438|2013-09-04 12:19:20|northcanoe|Re: Yahoo site screwupos|Have no idea where the hell that came from, just logged in and saw it. Used to be there was the cover from my DVD.Yahoo also did same to Flickr, their photo-sharing website, everyone got a picture of flowers or a field of flowing wheat.Alex  --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:They have a picture of someone on a bike at the start. What does that have to do with boats? It is evidence on who's behind the screw-ups, and how he puts his interests ahead of everyone else's.  Fire the bastard! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: All the groups seem to hate the changes. I would expect some to be undone due to the amount of negative chatter and desire of several groups to leave yahoo. On Sep 1, 2013, at 5:30 PM, martin demers < mdemers2005@... > wrote: > ah!ah! > > is it why the no activity on our group? > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 14:28:16 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Yahoo site screwupos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boy did yahoo ever screwup their chatlines ! They have done this with all their chatlines ! They appear to have adopted the bureaucrat's creed! "If it ant broke, fix it until it is broke." I hope they fire the guy who's harebrained idea this was, when they see a huge drop in the number of hits on these sites. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo ! Groups Links > > > | 30446|30438|2013-09-04 12:23:41|fishbigwahoo|Re: Yahoo site screwupos| Brent, The group owner can change the cover photo; hover mouse over right side of picture a pop-up comes up. If you click it you can replace it with your picture. I agree this is a pain in the rear but looks like we will have to live with it.                                  Bob.R --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/03/yahoo_groups_neo_design_upsets_users/ 'Vile, unfriendly interface' attacked by world 3rd September 2013 Yahoo! has told thousands of users who are complaining about the Purple Palace's pisspoor redesign of its Groups service that it will not be rolled back to the old format - despite a huge outcry. The Marissa Mayer-run company revamped Yahoo! Groups last week, but it was immediately inundated with unhappy netizens who grumbled that the overhaul was glitchy, difficult to navigate and "severely degraded". In response, Yahoo! told its users: We deeply value how much you, our users, care about Yahoo! Groups ... we launched our first update to the Groups experience in several years and while these changes are an important step to building a more modern Groups experience, we recognise that this is a considerable change. We are listening to all of the community feedback and we are actively measuring user feedback so we can continuously make improvements. But the complaints have continued to flood in since Yahoo! made the tweak by changing its "classic" (read: ancient) interface to one dubbed "neo" that appeared to have been quickly spewed on to the interwebs with little testing before going live. And - while the company claimed it was listening closely to its users about the new look Yahoo! Groups - it has ignored pleas from thousands of people who want it to reverse the update. Yahoo! said in response to one unhappy camper on its official customer care Twitter account: "It is not possible to return to the old format." The Register has asked Yahoo! to explain what's gone wrong. But at the time of writing it hadn't returned our request for comment. El Reg understands that accessing the rebooted version of Yahoo! Groups on any browser initially led to all sorts of problems, with users reporting that they couldn't view messages properly and that it was impossible to make any changes to individual settings on the service. The company said it had - so far - fixed some but not all of the bugs submitted by its miserable userbase. >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 3/09/2013 4:48 p.m., brentswain38@... wrote: > > They have a picture of someone on a bike at the start. What does that > have to do with boats? It is evidence on who's behind the screw-ups, > and how he puts his interests ahead of everyone else's. Fire the > bastard! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , > wrote: > > All the groups seem to hate the changes. I would expect some to be > > undone due to the amount of negative chatter and desire of several > > groups to leave yahoo. > > On Sep 1, 2013, at 5:30 PM, martin demers < mdemers2005@... > > wrote: > > > ah!ah! > > > > > > is it why the no activity on our group? > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: brentswain38@... > > > Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 14:28:16 -0700 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Yahoo site screwupos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boy did yahoo ever screwup their chatlines ! They have done this > with all their chatlines ! They appear to have adopted the > bureaucrat's creed! "If it ant broke, fix it until it is broke." I > hope they fire the guy who's harebrained idea this was, when they see > a huge drop in the number of hits on these sites. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > | 30447|30443|2013-09-05 09:50:22|ka0tp|Re: Alternate Discussion method?|   Sorry Matt to hear that you have had negative issues with Ham Radio.  Not sure which country you are in, but the USA has dropped the Morse Code requirement a few years ago. In countries that still require Morse Code, the Simpler license without Morse code allows you to use VHF which is what I was discussing.   There is still some technical knowledge required for a license, but if a 6 year olds and 96 year olds can pass the license and most adults I talk to only take a week or so of study to pass the tests...  And the Electrical knowledge will help with other boat systems.   Different language,beyond Radio protocol like on VHF Marine and HF?  Some old timers like the Q-codes, etc. but plain language is always welcome and the legal requirement.   Yes, we love our Acronyms. Example. IRLP is the Internet Radio Linking Project.  The (Automatic Radio Relays) Repeaters used by Hams on VHF to increase local range, can be connected together via the Internet so when talking to one here I can also talk to one in Bermuda or Naimo. All while using radios similar  to a Marine VHF in cost.   If your countrty's license requirements are too hard for a Ham license, there is no residency requirement in the USA for a Ham license. I'd be glad to administer the test on the First Sunday of the month in Milwaukie Oresgon.   (and more Ham jargon for you) 73  (best regards)   Tom - KA0TP     Wed Sep 4, 2013 8:38 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Matt Malone" www_m_j_malone You ham operators talk a different language. I could swim through google for a while to figure out what you said, but, it comes down to, many people simply cannot get a ham licenc. This is a thorn in the side to some boat enthusiasts who hear the idle banter on the ham frequencies and know, they would have better uses for the airwaves but are denied. Speed is the key. When I was young, I worked at a grocery store in the summer, and there were two express-line cashiers who could 1) remember the price of everything in a grocery store, and 2) type it into the click-key cash register faster than any laser check-out scanner operator I have seen since. They had a particular talent for fast. They thought the other cashiers who were slower were "slow witted" , i.e. stupid, so, did not qualify for the express lane. I see the same arrogance now in gamers who live in their parent's basement. To get a ham licence in my country, I have to learn Morse code both send and receive at a certain rate. If one has always had a problem doing hand-ear-hand things fast, for instance, writing down someone' s name as they speed-spell it verbally, their chances of ever passing the ham tests are zero. I know there is now a limited transmit licence with a slower Morse test. Great, hypothetically, it keeps slow Morse people from transmitting on the better frequency range, so others are not bored by the slow pace of their idle banter Morse, like anyone would use Morse for idle banter, or care if they missed some. I believe I understand the justification for the Morse speed test -- in a hypothetical emergency, when a sender cannot receive (to be asked to please slow down) and cannot send voice or any other medium, they can tap Morse at a "normal" rate and anyone who hears them will be able to decode it. The test makes sure you, as a receiver, can do the job. As a sender, I doubt if I am tapping out letters at a snail's pace in an emergency (boat sinking) any reasonable person is going to criticize my Morse, so, the test really does not cut the other way. Now, lets ask, in that situation, would it be better if there were many more ears out there, more on boats possibly near me, to potentially hear my emergency message, and the cost is, the sender must tap slowly, or it is better the way it is ? Seems better to me if there were no speed test for Morse, and a larger number of responsible people were allowed to legally use the ham frequencies, so they would be more likel y to be listening. I know many hams believe those who cannot do Morse fast are stupid or something. Both idle banter and functional messaging on ham is forever closed to them because of the Morse speed test, all for a hypothetical. Idle banter never interested me, but, being able to legally contact a station from further out than VHF permitted would be really handy. I know lots of people have ham transceivers in their boat, to listen from time to time, receive etc, with a plan to transmit only if there were an emergency, until the ham rules become more sensible. Until then, a lot of boaters are choosing expensive satellite-based subscription locate services. Those services mostly contact people on land, not people close, in the water where radio has distinct advantages. This leaves the very useful and free-to-use ham bands silent or turned off for people who could really use them or be of use because of them. Instead, the bands are dominated by idle banter... So, how about we post our idle banter about boats, with people from around the world, in here ? Matt | 30448|30443|2013-09-05 12:40:59|Matt Malone|Re: Alternate Discussion method?| A while ago, I ran across this group:http://www.tormarc.com/who appears to have an appropriate utilitarian point of view on ham and boats:  "The forming of the Toronto Marine Amateur Radio Club came about because of a near fatal tragedy at sea by some of Charles Leggatt's  sailing friends. Finding them selves in a storm of such magnitude that there seemed little or no hope of survival, they could do nothing except pray. .... To date, of the three hundred or more sailors that have taken the ham radio study course through M.A.R.C.,  NOT ONE has lost his or her life at sea."Those who talk of repeaters, and internet connections, and the cool hobbyish parts of ham sound less useful to me.   Useless, like Morse speed tests, and extensive analog electronics courses that emphasize repair and building-level knowledge, when, in reality, the majority of modern ham transceivers one might buy and have in a boat are almost entirely water-proof sealed, surface-mount digital, and, even with an oscilloscope are completely undiagnosable and unrepairable in the field.  Yet a full licence to operate below 30MHz on the long range HF frequencies requires things like this.    Here is the Canadian fact sheet on ham:   http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01862.htmlAnd here are the test subjects:http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01347.html#basic21 If one can achieve 80% on the basic test, they do not require the advanced to operate below 30MHz.   Find me some 6 or 96 year old who could reliably do that with one week's study.   Find me some 6 year olds who could do complex analysis or Laplace transforms, or have spent enough time at a bench with a scope to really understand the advanced material.  If one can't put the knowledge into practice on physical hardware sitting in front of them, then it is empty jargon and what is the purpose of the courses?  A buddy of mine from high school studied for more than 7 years to get his advanced certificate.  I think the Morse requirement then was 30 wpm, and that was the hardest part for him.  And that is more than twice what it is now.     We have restricted marine band VHF operators certificates, and, I have one of those.  Apples and oranges.     MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: TDPOPP@...Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 09:50:20 -0400Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alternate Discussion method?     Sorry Matt to hear that you have had negative issues with Ham Radio.  Not sure which country you are in, but the USA has dropped the Morse Code requirement a few years ago. In countries that still require Morse Code, the Simpler license without Morse code allows you to use VHF which is what I was discussing.   There is still some technical knowledge required for a license, but if a 6 year olds and 96 year olds can pass the license and most adults I talk to only take a week or so of study to pass the tests...  And the Electrical knowledge will help with other boat systems.   Different language,beyond Radio protocol like on VHF Marine and HF?  Some old timers like the Q-codes, etc. but plain language is always welcome and the legal requirement.   Yes, we love our Acronyms. Example. IRLP is the Internet Radio Linking Project.  The (Automatic Radio Relays) Repeaters used by Hams on VHF to increase local range, can be connected together via the Internet so when talking to one here I can also talk to one in Bermuda or Naimo. All while using radios similar  to a Marine VHF in cost.   If your countrty's license requirements are too hard for a Ham license, there is no residency requirement in the USA for a Ham license. I'd be glad to administer the test on the First Sunday of the month in Milwaukie Oresgon.   (and more Ham jargon for you) 73  (best regards)   Tom - KA0TP     Wed Sep 4, 2013 8:38 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Matt Malone" www_m_j_malone You ham operators talk a different language. I could swim through google for a while to figure out what you said, but, it comes down to, many people simply cannot get a ham licenc. This is a thorn in the side to some boat enthusiasts who hear the idle banter on the ham frequencies and know, they would have better uses for the airwaves but are denied. Speed is the key. When I was young, I worked at a grocery store in the summer, and there were two express-line cashiers who could 1) remember the price of everything in a grocery store, and 2) type it into the click-key cash register faster than any laser check-out scanner operator I have seen since. They had a particular talent for fast. They thought the other cashiers who were slower were "slow witted" , i.e. stupid, so, did not qualify for the express lane. I see the same arrogance now in gamers who live in their parent's basement. To get a ham licence in my country, I have to learn Morse code both send and receive at a certain rate. If one has always had a problem doing hand-ear-hand things fast, for instance, writing down someone' s name as they speed-spell it verbally, their chances of ever passing the ham tests are zero. I know there is now a limited transmit licence with a slower Morse test. Great, hypothetically, it keeps slow Morse people from transmitting on the better frequency range, so others are not bored by the slow pace of their idle banter Morse, like anyone would use Morse for idle banter, or care if they missed some. I believe I understand the justification for the Morse speed test -- in a hypothetical emergency, when a sender cannot receive (to be asked to please slow down) and cannot send voice or any other medium, they can tap Morse at a "normal" rate and anyone who hears them will be able to decode it. The test makes sure you, as a receiver, can do the job. As a sender, I doubt if I am tapping out letters at a snail's pace in an emergency (boat sinking) any reasonable person is going to criticize my Morse, so, the test really does not cut the other way. Now, lets ask, in that situation, would it be better if there were many more ears out there, more on boats possibly near me, to potentially hear my emergency message, and the cost is, the sender must tap slowly, or it is better the way it is ? Seems better to me if there were no speed test for Morse, and a larger number of responsible people were allowed to legally use the ham frequencies, so they would be more likel y to be listening. I know many hams believe those who cannot do Morse fast are stupid or something. Both idle banter and functional messaging on ham is forever closed to them because of the Morse speed test, all for a hypothetical. Idle banter never interested me, but, being able to legally contact a station from further out than VHF permitted would be really handy. I know lots of people have ham transceivers in their boat, to listen from time to time, receive etc, with a plan to transmit only if there were an emergency, until the ham rules become more sensible. Until then, a lot of boaters are choosing expensive satellite-based subscription locate services. Those services mostly contact people on land, not people close, in the water where radio has distinct advantages. This leaves the very useful and free-to-use ham bands silent or turned off for people who could really use them or be of use because of them. Instead, the bands are dominated by idle banter... So, how about we post our idle banter about boats, with people from around the world, in here ? Matt http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01347.html#basic21 | 30449|30443|2013-09-07 13:01:48|Mark Hamill|Re: Alternate Discussion method?| Matt: If you live in Canada you don't need Morse Code for a Basic License. 2-3 years ?? ago i got a Basic license with 52 others from 9 to 72 years of age on a short weekend course. And I organized quite a few Ham courses before then and nobody had that much trouble with the Morse. I waited until it was unnecessary because I have a problem with this type of learning. The course here was organized by the local Emergency organization to get people in so they could then train them in Emergency work. I have since found I can learn Morse fairly easily--go figure. All the best, MarkH| 30450|879|2013-09-09 13:42:27|robertbiegler|Anchor winch|I am interested in more information about the anchor winch described on page 38 of Origami Metal Boatbuilding.  What is the diameter and wall thickness of the tube that serves as axle and drum of the reel?  Is the material galvanised steel, apart from the handle?  If galvanised, is there any problem with the zinc coming off where the tube rotates in the bearings on either side?  It looks like the bearing is just a plain bearing formed by another, slightly larger tube.  is that correct?Given that several people have built these anchor winches, I expect the answers are obvious to the more experienced, but I don't know, and I'd rather not find out I got something wrong by breaking the winch.RegardsRobert Biegler| 30451|30451|2013-09-11 08:12:20|shaneduncan206@yahoo.com|Re: [origamiboats] Anchor winch| 3mm wall thickness or up, have just made one am most impressed, its pretty straight forward to put a grease nipple insent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset----- Reply message -----From: Robert.Biegler@...To: Subject: [origamiboats] Anchor winchDate: Tue, Sep 10, 2013 1:42 AM I am interested in more information about the anchor winch described on page 38 of Origami Metal Boatbuilding.  What is the diameter and wall thickness of the tube that serves as axle and drum of the reel?  Is the material galvanised steel, apart from the handle?  If galvanised, is there any problem with the zinc coming off where the tube rotates in the bearings on either side?  It looks like the bearing is just a plain bearing formed by another, slightly larger tube.  is that correct?Given that several people have built these anchor winches, I expect the answers are obvious to the more experienced, but I don't know, and I'd rather not find out I got something wrong by breaking the winch.RegardsRobert Biegler | 30452|30443|2013-09-11 11:02:39|Matt Malone|Re: Alternate Discussion method?| Mark, Can you say were you took the course, from what group or organization ?   Would you be able to estimate what fraction of the class, with a one weekend course, scored over the 80% to achieve a Basic with Honours qualification required to use ham equipment on frequencies less than 30MHz?  If one does not get the honours, one requires either 5 wpm Morse or an advanced certification to access those frequencies.   It is really only those frequencies that I am interested in for ham because those ones can experience skywave bounces off the ionosphere greatly extending the range of things like packet email and such.  For instance, a quick check of Sailmail's frequencies shows all are below 30MHz:   http://www.sailmail.com/If one does not get skywave bounces, then, ham, for the same power, antenna, etc, has not particular range advantage over marine VHF  (156MHz-162MHz).   And marine VHF has the advantage that boats are supposed to be listening.   I had assumed I would not be using a ham transceiver unless I had access to frequencies below 30MHz....But since you have recently done this course in Canada, maybe you could provide a little more information?  Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: mhamill1@...Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2013 10:01:57 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alternate Discussion method?   Matt: If you live in Canada you don't need Morse Code for a Basic License. 2-3 years ?? ago i got a Basic license with 52 others from 9 to 72 years of age on a short weekend course. And I organized quite a few Ham courses before then and nobody had that much trouble with the Morse. I waited until it was unnecessary because I have a problem with this type of learning. The course here was organized by the local Emergency organization to get people in so they could then train them in Emergency work. I have since found I can learn Morse fairly easily--go figure. All the best, MarkH | 30453|879|2013-09-11 16:26:30|brentswain38|Re: Anchor winch|I use 2 inch sch 40 SS pipe for the centre of the drum.  I use 1/8th inch ss plate for the ends, 1 inch SS sch 40 pipe for the frame, axle  and handle and 1 1/4 inch sch 40 stainless for the bearings. Mine has been running stainless on stainless for 29 years now , no problem. You could use galvanized for the winch and stainless for the bearing surfaces, or you could use plastic pipe hose barbs for bearings, but I have had no problem in 40 years with stainless on stainless, with zero sign of any wear. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:I am interested in more information about the anchor winch described on page 38 of Origami Metal Boatbuilding.  What is the diameter and wall thickness of the tube that serves as axle and drum of the reel?  Is the material galvanised steel, apart from the handle?  If galvanised, is there any problem with the zinc coming off where the tube rotates in the bearings on either side?  It looks like the bearing is just a plain bearing formed by another, slightly larger tube.  is that correct?Given that several people have built these anchor winches, I expect the answers are obvious to the more experienced, but I don't know, and I'd rather not find out I got something wrong by breaking the winch.RegardsRobert Biegler| 30454|30333|2013-09-12 09:29:35|martin demers|Re: keel welding repairs| Hi,I have posted the photos of the affected area in the photo album under ''steel classic''MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: heretic_37ft@...Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 23:44:31 +0000Subject: [origamiboats] Re: keel welding repairs   Please post photos of the affected area? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Yes my ballast is lead and no, it is not sealed, > what I meant is that there is some rust inside the hull facing the top of the keel lead. > I read that you cannot weld steel if there is lead behind it. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 18:46:51 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: keel welding repairs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While your question is a bit garbled I see no problem doing that. You cna check the thickness of the plate anywhere by giving it a good whack > > with a sledgehammer and a centre punch.If it doesnt give , you have plenty of thicknes there. Is your ballast lead? Is it sealed? You can weld an SS nut on the cap and drill a hole in it, then pour in a bit of oil to eliminate any further corrosion in the ballast. Then put an SS bolt in the nut to reseal it. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > There is some rust inside my keel at the same level of the lead. Is it possible to weld a plate outside the boat, between 1/2 in to 1 in under the lead level, on top of the existing plate if I cut that plate 1 in over lead level to stay isolated from the lead when welding. Is it the right procedure? Has it been done before? ( whitout any injuries) > > > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30455|30333|2013-09-14 17:36:01|brentswain38|Re: keel welding repairs|You could do that , but you would run the risk of corrosion between the two if the weld  is not perfectly  airtight. You would still have the inside plate rusting thru . You would be far better off to replace the corroded plate completely ,piece by piece if  necessary. That would do a far more thorough job. You could, use much thicker plate there ,for long term trouble free cruising.    --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi,I have posted the photos of the affected area in the photo album under ''steel classic''MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: heretic_37ft@...Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 23:44:31 +0000Subject: [origamiboats] Re: keel welding repairs   Please post photos of the affected area? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Yes my ballast is lead and no, it is not sealed, > what I meant is that there is some rust inside the hull facing the top of the keel lead. > I read that you cannot weld steel if there is lead behind it. > > Martin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 18:46:51 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: keel welding repairs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While your question is a bit garbled I see no problem doing that. You cna check the thickness of the plate anywhere by giving it a good whack > > with a sledgehammer and a centre punch.If it doesnt give , you have plenty of thicknes there. Is your ballast lead? Is it sealed? You can weld an SS nut on the cap and drill a hole in it, then pour in a bit of oil to eliminate any further corrosion in the ballast. Then put an SS bolt in the nut to reseal it. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > There is some rust inside my keel at the same level of the lead. Is it possible to weld a plate outside the boat, between 1/2 in to 1 in under the lead level, on top of the existing plate if I cut that plate 1 in over lead level to stay isolated from the lead when welding. Is it the right procedure? Has it been done before? ( whitout any injuries) > > > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 30456|30333|2013-09-18 13:17:17|Darren Bos|Wire Rope Anchor Winch| I was in Princess Auto yesterday and noticed they had 2000lb 12V utility winches on special for $50 (  http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Atv/2000-lb-12V-DC-ATV-Winch/8212417.p  ) and I thought this might be a nice way to electrify Brent's wire rope/cable anchor winch ($50 seemed like a great deal for a usable remote switch, motor and gearbox).  The winch motor is 0.75kW (1hp) which is in the range found on most windlass' (500W to 1.2kW).  The retrieval speed is 10 FPM(3 MPM) with a 1.25" drum diameter.  If you use a 2" diameter pipe for the drum this would increase the retrieval speed to 5 MPM for the first wraps on the winch using the same gearing on the motor.  If your coil of rode builds to 12" diameter on the drum, then the retrieval speed is about 30 MPM as the anchor comes up.  These numbers are in line with what is available commercially in a reel winch such as the Muir DW08/DW10 ( http://www.precisionmarine.com.au/muiranchorwinchesmuirdrumwinchdw8dw10/  ) which has an empty drum pull speed of 7 MPM and a full drum pull speed of 33 MPM. The winch has a "freespooling turn and pull clutch) which means you pull a spindle and turn it to either fully engage of fully disengage the motor.  So this seems like it would be a nice way to remove the electric motor from the system should it fail and you need to winch up manually. Any thoughts?  Especially if you electrified a reel winch and have ideas on motor size and cycle time. Darren | 30457|30457|2013-09-19 02:38:34|Ralph|Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|It seems that here at origami boats the tar epoxy paint is the way to go. My paint store is telling me that there is also epoxy paint without tar. No tar is no bleeding through when covered with colour, and the price is only a bit higher. What is the benefits of the tar in the epoxy, or why I should stick with tar?| 30458|30457|2013-09-19 04:20:25|Paul Wilson|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Coal tar epoxies are excellent. My wife is a pipeline engineer and they have dug up pipelines more than 50 years old and the coatings are still good. The downside with them is because of environmental rules the coal tar epoxies are getting more expensive and getting harder to find. As you know, they can also have overcoat problems. Modern two pack epoxies are excellent too. I think it is really a matter of personal choice. Surface preparation is the key no matter what paint you use. I wouldn't be worried about any epoxy that is designed for offshore oil structures. I have use a variety of epoxies at a variety of prices (both with and without tar) but I really like PPG/ Ameron Amerlock 400.....also known as Amerlock 2. It has been around for many years and is widely used offshore. It goes on really nice and is surface tolerant. Because it is an industrial coating, it tends to be a bit cheaper than the stuff marketed to yachts. I would use it again, even if it was a bit more expensive than an unknown brand. http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/400_PDS_AI.pdf Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 19/09/2013 2:38 a.m., Ralph wrote: > > It seems that here at origami boats the tar epoxy paint is the way to > go. My paint store is telling me that there is also epoxy paint > without tar. > No tar is no bleeding through when covered with colour, and the price > is only a bit higher. > What is the benefits of the tar in the epoxy, or why I should stick > with tar? > > | 30459|30457|2013-09-19 11:11:44|audeojude|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint| I use PPG products and they are excellent.. I use PSX One as a topcoat paint and it kicks ass. It was developed for the navy and coast guard.scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Coal tar epoxies are excellent. My wife is a pipeline engineer and they have dug up pipelines more than 50 years old and the coatings are still good. The downside with them is because of environmental rules the coal tar epoxies are getting more expensive and getting harder to find. As you know, they can also have overcoat problems. Modern two pack epoxies are excellent too. I think it is really a matter of personal choice. Surface preparation is the key no matter what paint you use. I wouldn't be worried about any epoxy that is designed for offshore oil structures. I have use a variety of epoxies at a variety of prices (both with and without tar) but I really like PPG/ Ameron Amerlock 400.....also known as Amerlock 2. It has been around for many years and is widely used offshore. It goes on really nice and is surface tolerant. Because it is an industrial coating, it tends to be a bit cheaper than the stuff marketed to yachts. I would use it again, even if it was a bit more expensive than an unknown brand. http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/products/pdf/400_PDS_AI.pdf Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 19/09/2013 2:38 a.m., Ralph wrote: > > It seems that here at origami boats the tar epoxy paint is the way to > go. My paint store is telling me that there is also epoxy paint > without tar. > No tar is no bleeding through when covered with colour, and the price > is only a bit higher. > What is the benefits of the tar in the epoxy, or why I should stick > with tar? > > | 30460|30333|2013-09-19 15:16:48|cnc sales (hanermo)|Re: Wire Rope Anchor Winch| I am 19/20 certain that that type of winch wont last a year. Likely a lot less. I have taken 2 apart and modified them, and the internals are not good mechanically, and thats being generous. Theres a small planetary gear, but its way overloaded. The motor is also very weak. There is insufficient cooling. All metal parts are far too small for the load. The winch will probably rust in a few months. I suggest you need something at least 3 sizes larger, and properly built and protected. Those winches are not really built for proper usage - more like an occasional, very occasional, nudge.   I was in Princess Auto yesterday and noticed they had 2000lb 12V utility winches on special for $50 (  http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Atv/2000-lb-12V-DC-ATV-Winch/8212417.p  ) and I thought this might be a nice way to electrify Brent's wire rope/cable anchor winch ($50 seemed like a great deal for a usable remote switch, motor and gearbox).  The winch motor is 0.75kW (1hp) which is in the range found on most windlass' (500W to 1.2kW).  The retrieval speed is 10 FPM(3 MPM) with a 1.25" drum diameter.  If you use a 2" diameter pipe for the drum this would increase the retrieval speed to 5 MPM for the first wraps on the winch using the same gearing on the motor.  If your coil of rode builds to 12" diameter on the drum, then the retrieval speed is about 30 MPM as the anchor comes up.  These numbers are in line with what is available commercially in a reel winch such as the Muir DW08/DW10 ( http://www.precisionmarine.com.au/muiranchorwinchesmuirdrumwinchdw8dw10/  ) which has an empty drum pull speed of 7 MPM and a full drum pull speed of 33 MPM. The winch has a "freespooling turn and pull clutch) which means you pull a spindle and turn it to either fully engage of fully disengage the motor.  So this seems like it would be a nice way to remove the electric motor from the system should it fail and you need to winch up manually. Any thoughts?  Especially if you electrified a reel winch and have ideas on motor size and cycle time. Darren -- -hanermo | 30461|30333|2013-09-19 16:45:19|Doug Jackson|Re: Wire Rope Anchor Winch|I agree, they will not last very long and their real working load is about 1/4 of the advertised load.  But having said that we used two of them a dozen times a day for two weeks completely submerged in fresh water for the entire 2 weeks and they always ran.  They even worked occasionally a year later in the dry.DougSVSeeker.com From: cnc sales (hanermo) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wire Rope Anchor Winch   I am 19/20 certain that that type of winch wont last a year. Likely a lot less. I have taken 2 apart and modified them, and the internals are not good mechanically, and thats being generous. Theres a small planetary gear, but its way overloaded. The motor is also very weak. There is insufficient cooling. All metal parts are far too small for the load. The winch will probably rust in a few months. I suggest you need something at least 3 sizes larger, and properly built and protected. Those winches are not really built for proper usage - more like an occasional, very occasional, nudge.   I was in Princess Auto yesterday and noticed they had 2000lb 12V utility winches on special for $50 (  http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Atv/2000-lb-12V-DC-ATV-Winch/8212417.p  ) and I thought this might be a nice way to electrify Brent's wire rope/cable anchor winch ($50 seemed like a great deal for a usable remote switch, motor and gearbox).  The winch motor is 0.75kW (1hp) which is in the range found on most windlass' (500W to 1.2kW).  The retrieval speed is 10 FPM(3 MPM) with a 1.25" drum diameter.  If you use a 2" diameter pipe for the drum this would increase the retrieval speed to 5 MPM for the first wraps on the winch using the same gearing on the motor.  If your coil of rode builds to 12" diameter on the drum, then the retrieval speed is about 30 MPM as the anchor comes up.  These numbers are in line with what is available commercially in a reel winch such as the Muir DW08/DW10 ( http://www.precisionmarine.com.au/muiranchorwinchesmuirdrumwinchdw8dw10/  ) which has an empty drum pull speed of 7 MPM and a full drum pull speed of 33 MPM. The winch has a "freespooling turn and pull clutch) which means you pull a spindle and turn it to either fully engage of fully disengage the motor.  So this seems like it would be a nice way to remove the electric motor from the system should it fail and you need to winch up manually. Any thoughts?  Especially if you electrified a reel winch and have ideas on motor size and cycle time. Darren -- -hanermo | 30462|30457|2013-09-19 19:35:25|brentswain38|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Being tar base seems to make it far more impervious to water. It goes on far thicker than most epoxies, making one coat of epoxy tar the equivalent of several coats of other epoxies, in terms of the protection if offers. That has been my experience over many decades. Bleed thru is not  a problem. Just give the last wet coat of epoxy tar a coat of colour and it will bleed thru like crazy,  giving a good, wet on wet bond. When that dries, give her another coat. That too will bleed like crazy. Let that harden up for several weeks . Then you can cover it with any colour you want, including white, with no bleed thru.Wasser makes a urethane based one part tar, which works just as well, for the same price range, Easy to use ,but is so volatile it goes off in the can if the can is not completely full. With a matt finish, it is much easier to over coat any time.  --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:It seems that here at origami boats the tar epoxy paint is the way to go. My paint store is telling me that there is also epoxy paint without tar. No tar is no bleeding through when covered with colour, and the price is only a bit higher. What is the benefits of the tar in the epoxy, or why I should stick with tar?| 30463|30463|2013-09-19 19:38:11|smallboatvoyaguer|chimney angle for exiting near stern.|Greetings, I was wondering if there is a specific angle at which the chimney pipe needs to be (for the run from firebox to stern) in order to get a proper draw, when exiting near the stern, as is suggested in Brent's book. Thanks, Marlin| 30464|30457|2013-09-19 20:35:11|David Jones|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Brent is just spot on with this one! Epoxy tar is excellent as a base coat. I know of no other that works as well in this application. It will flex with boat and not allow water to penetrate. Well applied epoxy tar coatings are the best undercoat I've ever seen for a steel boat... dj On Thu, 19 Sep 2013, brentswain38@... wrote: > > > Being tar base seems to make it far more impervious to water. It goes on far > thicker than most epoxies, making one coat of epoxy tar the equivalent of several > coats of other epoxies, in terms of the protection if offers. That has been my > experience over many decades. Bleed thru is not  a problem. Just give the last wet > coat of epoxy tar a coat of colour and it will bleed thru like crazy,  giving a > good, wet on wet bond. When that dries, give her another coat. That too will bleed > like crazy. Let that harden up for several weeks . Then you can cover it with any > colour you want, including white, with no bleed thru. > > Wasser makes a urethane based one part tar, which works just as well, for the same > price range, Easy to use ,but is so volatile it goes off in the can if the can is > not completely full. With a matt finish, it is much easier to over coat any time. > > > > --- In origami boats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > It seems that here at origami boats the tar epoxy paint is the way to go. My paint > store is telling me that there is also epoxy paint without tar. > No tar is no bleeding through when covered with colour, and the price is only a > bit higher. > What is the benefits of the tar in the epoxy, or why I should stick with tar? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30465|30333|2013-09-20 11:25:26|Darren Bos|Re: Wire Rope Anchor Winch| Thanks Doug and Hanermo, It did seem too good to be true.  Darren On 13-09-19 01:45 PM, Doug Jackson wrote:   I agree, they will not last very long and their real working load is about 1/4 of the advertised load.  But having said that we used two of them a dozen times a day for two weeks completely submerged in fresh water for the entire 2 weeks and they always ran.  They even worked occasionally a year later in the dry. Doug SVSeeker.com From: cnc sales (hanermo) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wire Rope Anchor Winch   I am 19/20 certain that that type of winch wont last a year. Likely a lot less. I have taken 2 apart and modified them, and the internals are not good mechanically, and thats being generous. Theres a small planetary gear, but its way overloaded. The motor is also very weak. There is insufficient cooling. All metal parts are far too small for the load. The winch will probably rust in a few months. I suggest you need something at least 3 sizes larger, and properly built and protected. Those winches are not really built for proper usage - more like an occasional, very occasional, nudge.   I was in Princess Auto yesterday and noticed they had 2000lb 12V utility winches on special for $50 (  http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Atv/2000-lb-12V-DC-ATV-Winch/8212417.p  ) and I thought this might be a nice way to electrify Brent's wire rope/cable anchor winch ($50 seemed like a great deal for a usable remote switch, motor and gearbox).  The winch motor is 0.75kW (1hp) which is in the range found on most windlass' (500W to 1.2kW).  The retrieval speed is 10 FPM(3 MPM) with a 1.25" drum diameter.  If you use a 2" diameter pipe for the drum this would increase the retrieval speed to 5 MPM for the first wraps on the winch using the same gearing on the motor.  If your coil of rode builds to 12" diameter on the drum, then the retrieval speed is about 30 MPM as the anchor comes up.  These numbers are in line with what is available commercially in a reel winch such as the Muir DW08/DW10 ( http://www.precisionmarine.com.au/muiranchorwinchesmuirdrumwinchdw8dw10/  ) which has an empty drum pull speed of 7 MPM and a full drum pull speed of 33 MPM. The winch has a "freespooling turn and pull clutch) which means you pull a spindle and turn it to either fully engage of fully disengage the motor.  So this seems like it would be a nice way to remove the electric motor from the system should it fail and you need to winch up manually. Any thoughts?  Especially if you electrified a reel winch and have ideas on motor size and cycle time. Darren -- -hanermo | 30466|30457|2013-09-20 18:26:41|Paul Wilson|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|The technology has changed a huge amount in the last 10 years. There are so many types of epoxies now it makes your head spin. Thickness has to do with the solids content. Some 2 part epoxies now are almost 100 % solids content. They leave a coating far thicker than coal tar epoxies or any other epoxy that has solvents coming off and evaporating. Because of the film thickness, they can be cheaper to use because they need fewer coats. The downside is they can be trickier to apply. I used to use International Inter-tuf Vinyl Tar. It was a good single pack paint that was full of tar and was compatible with antifoulings. They changed the formula so it had less tar for environmental reasons. Even though it had the same name, you could tell the difference. What was once a good paint, became pretty much useless. There is a huge incentive for paint companies to drop solvent based paints. Based on my experience with the Inter-tuf, I would talk to the paint reps and make sure they haven't changed the formula on any epoxy after all the new environmental rules the last few years. This is especially true with any paint company that has been bought out and changed names which seems to happen regularly. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 19/09/2013 8:35 p.m., David Jones wrote: > > Brent is just spot on with this one! Epoxy tar is excellent as a base > coat. I know of no other that works as well in this application. It will > flex with boat and not allow water to penetrate. Well applied epoxy tar > coatings are the best undercoat I've ever seen for a steel boat... > > dj > > On Thu, 19 Sep 2013, brentswain38@... wrote: > > > > > > > Being tar base seems to make it far more impervious to water. It > goes on far > > thicker than most epoxies, making one coat of epoxy tar the > equivalent of several > > coats of other epoxies, in terms of the protection if offers. That > has been my > > experience over many decades. Bleed thru is not a problem. Just > give the last wet > > coat of epoxy tar a coat of colour and it will bleed thru like > crazy, giving a > > good, wet on wet bond. When that dries, give her another coat. That > too will bleed > > like crazy. Let that harden up for several weeks . Then you can > cover it with any > > colour you want, including white, with no bleed thru. > > > > Wasser makes a urethane based one part tar, which works just as > well, for the same > > price range, Easy to use ,but is so volatile it goes off in the can > if the can is > > not completely full. With a matt finish, it is much easier to over > coat any time. > > > > > > > > --- In origami boats@yahoogroups.com, > wrote: > > > > It seems that here at origami boats the tar epoxy paint is the way > to go. My paint > > store is telling me that there is also epoxy paint without tar. > > No tar is no bleeding through when covered with colour, and the > price is only a > > bit higher. > > What is the benefits of the tar in the epoxy, or why I should stick > with tar? > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 30467|30457|2013-09-21 17:49:09|brentswain38|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|They reduced the tar for environmental reasons but they want to ship tar sands unrefined crude ,which sinks if spilled, across the continent ,unrefined, and ship it out thru some of the most pristine and dangerous waters in the world. What a bunch of hippocrites. Lattitude 48 recently published an editorial which stated they  found that 80% of the copper in Puget Sound comes from auto brake shoes. So they banned copper antifouling ; for environmental reasons. More hippocracy. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:The technology has changed a huge amount in the last 10 years. There are so many types of epoxies now it makes your head spin. Thickness has to do with the solids content. Some 2 part epoxies now are almost 100 % solids content. They leave a coating far thicker than coal tar epoxies or any other epoxy that has solvents coming off and evaporating. Because of the film thickness, they can be cheaper to use because they need fewer coats. The downside is they can be trickier to apply. I used to use International Inter-tuf Vinyl Tar. It was a good single pack paint that was full of tar and was compatible with antifoulings. They changed the formula so it had less tar for environmental reasons. Even though it had the same name, you could tell the difference. What was once a good paint, became pretty much useless. There is a huge incentive for paint companies to drop solvent based paints. Based on my experience with the Inter-tuf, I would talk to the paint reps and make sure they haven't changed the formula on any epoxy after all the new environmental rules the last few years. This is especially true with any paint company that has been bought out and changed names which seems to happen regularly. Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 19/09/2013 8:35 p.m., David Jones wrote: > > Brent is just spot on with this one! Epoxy tar is excellent as a base > coat. I know of no other that works as well in this application. It will > flex with boat and not allow water to penetrate. Well applied epoxy tar > coatings are the best undercoat I've ever seen for a steel boat... > > dj > > On Thu, 19 Sep 2013, brentswain38@... wrote: > > > > > > > Being tar base seems to make it far more impervious to water. It > goes on far > > thicker than most epoxies, making one coat of epoxy tar the > equivalent of several > > coats of other epoxies, in terms of the protection if offers. That > has been my > > experience over many decades. Bleed thru is not a problem. Just > give the last wet > > coat of epoxy tar a coat of colour and it will bleed thru like > crazy, giving a > > good, wet on wet bond. When that dries, give her another coat. That > too will bleed > > like crazy. Let that harden up for several weeks . Then you can > cover it with any > > colour you want, including white, with no bleed thru. > > > > Wasser makes a urethane based one part tar, which works just as > well, for the same > > price range, Easy to use ,but is so volatile it goes off in the can > if the can is > > not completely full. With a matt finish, it is much easier to over > coat any time. > > > > > > > > --- In origami boats@yahoogroups.com, > wrote: > > > > It seems that here at origami boats the tar epoxy paint is the way > to go. My paint > > store is telling me that there is also epoxy paint without tar. > > No tar is no bleeding through when covered with colour, and the > price is only a > > bit higher. > > What is the benefits of the tar in the epoxy, or why I should stick > with tar? > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 30468|30463|2013-09-21 18:02:27|brentswain38|Re: chimney angle for exiting near stern.|No specific angle , but the steeper the better , any angle will work ,but for a shallow angle you need a much cleaner stovepipe. Getting the draft started in a shallow angle is a challenge . I have  a removable plug at the back of   my stove top, which  I squirt a bit of laquer thinner  or alcohol in and light, to get the draft started, going the right way, when the chimney is dirty, and I`m too  lazy to clean it right away .Hope to find a 2 inch bilge blower type fan to stick on the front of my sealed stove to get the draft going the right wayThis winter I plan to experiment with squirting a mixture of saltpeter and water down, letting it dry for a bit then lighting it. Tried mixing saltpeter with creosote and it burns like a super slow black powder.They used to sell stuff called ``Red Devil ``for the same purpose. Perhaps it was just over priced saltpeter. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Greetings, I was wondering if there is a specific angle at which the chimney pipe needs to be (for the run from firebox to stern) in order to get a proper draw, when exiting near the stern, as is suggested in Brent's book. Thanks, Marlin | 30469|30457|2013-09-21 23:39:56|James Pronk|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|The tar sands tar is mixed with dilutent that makes it flow through the pipe line, which is a form of VOC and that is some nasty stuff. Not sure what it is made up of but I have heard they are finding some bad stuff in Quebec from that train crash.JamesSent from Yahoo! Mail on my iPod| 30470|30457|2013-09-22 19:12:12|brentswain38|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|They are calling the northern gateway pipeline " A Green energy gas pipeline", until they get it built. Then it will be use for tar sands bitumen. Asia has more gas than they can use,  They don't need ours. That is just a Trojan horse  --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:The tar sands tar is mixed with dilutent that makes it flow through the pipe line, which is a form of VOC and that is some nasty stuff. Not sure what it is made up of but I have heard they are finding some bad stuff in Quebec from that train crash.JamesSent from Yahoo! Mail on my iPod| 30471|30463|2013-09-22 19:14:20|brentswain38|Re: chimney angle for exiting near stern.|Mine has a 40 degree angle from horizontal. Works well.  --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:No specific angle , but the steeper the better , any angle will work ,but for a shallow angle you need a much cleaner stovepipe. Getting the draft started in a shallow angle is a challenge . I have  a removable plug at the back of   my stove top, which  I squirt a bit of laquer thinner  or alcohol in and light, to get the draft started, going the right way, when the chimney is dirty, and I`m too  lazy to clean it right away .Hope to find a 2 inch bilge blower type fan to stick on the front of my sealed stove to get the draft going the right wayThis winter I plan to experiment with squirting a mixture of saltpeter and water down, letting it dry for a bit then lighting it. Tried mixing saltpeter with creosote and it burns like a super slow black powder.They used to sell stuff called ``Red Devil ``for the same purpose. Perhaps it was just over priced saltpeter. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Greetings, I was wondering if there is a specific angle at which the chimney pipe needs to be (for the run from firebox to stern) in order to get a proper draw, when exiting near the stern, as is suggested in Brent's book. Thanks, Marlin | 30472|30333|2013-09-22 21:23:47|Gord Schnell|Re: Wire Rope Anchor Winch|For what it is worth, I had a spare 8000lb. "off-roader" winch from one of my trucks. It's fast, watertight and seriously over-rated (torque-wise) I figure that should last as long as the boat.Gord On 2013-09-19, at 12:16 PM, cnc sales (hanermo) wrote:   I am 19/20 certain that that type of winch wont last a year. Likely a lot less. I have taken 2 apart and modified them, and the internals are not good mechanically, and thats being generous. Theres a small planetary gear, but its way overloaded. The motor is also very weak. There is insufficient cooling. All metal parts are far too small for the load. The winch will probably rust in a few months. I suggest you need something at least 3 sizes larger, and properly built and protected. Those winches are not really built for proper usage - more like an occasional, very occasional, nudge.   I was in Princess Auto yesterday and noticed they had 2000lb 12V utility winches on special for $50 (  http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Atv/2000-lb-12V-DC-ATV-Winch/8212417.p  ) and I thought this might be a nice way to electrify Brent's wire rope/cable anchor winch ($50 seemed like a great deal for a usable remote switch, motor and gearbox).  The winch motor is 0.75kW (1hp) which is in the range found on most windlass' (500W to 1.2kW).  The retrieval speed is 10 FPM(3 MPM) with a 1.25" drum diameter.  If you use a 2" diameter pipe for the drum this would increase the retrieval speed to 5 MPM for the first wraps on the winch using the same gearing on the motor.  If your coil of rode builds to 12" diameter on the drum, then the retrieval speed is about 30 MPM as the anchor comes up.  These numbers are in line with what is available commercially in a reel winch such as the Muir DW08/DW10 ( http://www.precisionmarine.com.au/muiranchorwinchesmuirdrumwinchdw8dw10/  ) which has an empty drum pull speed of 7 MPM and a full drum pull speed of 33 MPM. The winch has a "freespooling turn and pull clutch) which means you pull a spindle and turn it to either fully engage of fully disengage the motor.  So this seems like it would be a nice way to remove the electric motor from the system should it fail and you need to winch up manually. Any thoughts?  Especially if you electrified a reel winch and have ideas on motor size and cycle time. Darren -- -hanermo | 30473|30457|2013-09-22 21:38:19|Paul Wilson|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Asia and Japan will take the gas if it is cheap enough. LNG scares me much more than bitumen. LNG tankers are extremely complex and vulnerable to terrorist attack. The gas is kept incredibly cold (-160 C) so compressed. If it leaks out, it warms, up and expands 600 times. If you look at the size of the tankers, you see how this can be a problem. If you had an LNG tanker or processing facility blow up in Vancouver or Kitimat, it would be like an atom bomb going off. http://www.iags.org/n0121041.htm As for bitumen, if they don't build a pipeline, they seem to be using rail. Rail has a much worse safety record and spill record than pipelines. Canada should say no to shipping out raw materials, build refineries and sell the finished product themselves to the US-anians. There is much more money and many more jobs in doing that and we don't need to put our coasts at risk..... Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 22/09/2013 7:12 p.m., brentswain38@... wrote: > > They are calling the northern gateway pipeline " A Green energy gas > pipeline", until they get it built. Then it will be use for tar sands > bitumen. Asia has more gas than they can use, They don't need ours. > That is just a Trojan horse > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > The tar sands tar is mixed with dilutent that makes it flow through > the pipe line, which is a form of VOC and that is some nasty stuff. > Not sure what it is made up of but I have heard they are finding some > bad stuff in Quebec from that train crash. > James > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on my iPod > > | 30474|30457|2013-09-23 16:45:04|mauro gonzaga|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Would it explode or become a jumbo ice block?It will be the second.MG From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 3:36 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint   Asia and Japan will take the gas if it is cheap enough. LNG scares me much more than bitumen. LNG tankers are extremely complex and vulnerable to terrorist attack. The gas is kept incredibly cold (-160 C) so compressed. If it leaks out, it warms, up and expands 600 times. If you look at the size of the tankers, you see how this can be a problem. If you had an LNG tanker or processing facility blow up in Vancouver or Kitimat, it would be like an atom bomb going off. http://www.iags.org/n0121041.htm As for bitumen, if they don't build a pipeline, they seem to be using rail. Rail has a much worse safety record and spill record than pipelines. Canada should say no to shipping out raw materials, build refineries and sell the finished product themselves to the US-anians. There is much more money and many more jobs in doing that and we don't need to put our coasts at risk..... Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 22/09/2013 7:12 p.m., brentswain38@... wrote: > > They are calling the northern gateway pipeline " A Green energy gas > pipeline", until they get it built. Then it will be use for tar sands > bitumen. Asia has more gas than they can use, They don't need ours. > That is just a Trojan horse > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > The tar sands tar is mixed with dilutent that makes it flow through > the pipe line, which is a form of VOC and that is some nasty stuff. > Not sure what it is made up of but I have heard they are finding some > bad stuff in Quebec from that train crash. > James > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on my iPod > > | 30475|30457|2013-09-23 18:50:11|brentswain38|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|They are sneaking the Northern Gateway pipeline in, by calling it a "Green energy gas pipeline." Once it has been built ,it will be used for bitumen, its real intended purpose . If a rail car derails, it is on land, and  a lot easier to deal with than bitumen at the bottom of the ocean, polluting huge areas. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Asia and Japan will take the gas if it is cheap enough. LNG scares me much more than bitumen. LNG tankers are extremely complex and vulnerable to terrorist attack. The gas is kept incredibly cold (-160 C) so compressed. If it leaks out, it warms, up and expands 600 times. If you look at the size of the tankers, you see how this can be a problem. If you had an LNG tanker or processing facility blow up in Vancouver or Kitimat, it would be like an atom bomb going off. http://www.iags.org/n0121041.htm As for bitumen, if they don't build a pipeline, they seem to be using rail. Rail has a much worse safety record and spill record than pipelines. Canada should say no to shipping out raw materials, build refineries and sell the finished product themselves to the US-anians. There is much more money and many more jobs in doing that and we don't need to put our coasts at risk..... Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 22/09/2013 7:12 p.m., brentswain38@... wrote: > > They are calling the northern gateway pipeline " A Green energy gas > pipeline", until they get it built. Then it will be use for tar sands > bitumen. Asia has more gas than they can use, They don't need ours. > That is just a Trojan horse > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > The tar sands tar is mixed with dilutent that makes it flow through > the pipe line, which is a form of VOC and that is some nasty stuff. > Not sure what it is made up of but I have heard they are finding some > bad stuff in Quebec from that train crash. > James > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on my iPod > > | 30476|30476|2013-09-29 14:40:21|darren_bos|Keel patches|This isn't exactly Origami, but since the forum has been quiet for a bit I was hoping to tap into the extensive pool of knowledge.  I'm looking at an aluminum hull that is in pretty good condition, but needs an total interior refit.  One thing that has me perplexed is a series of small patches (about 4" diameter) that are located along only one side (port side) of the keel.  The keel is 10" wide throughout.  I've posted photos in the album keel patches( http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/photos/albums/51875785  ) if anyone can help.  Could this be how ballast was added?  Or maybe a sign of repair? Thanks, Darren | 30477|30476|2013-09-29 15:01:38|mauro gonzaga|Re: Keel patches|I understand your concern. However from the practical point of view it makes no difference. Verify correctnes of electric wiring and each year verify whether any blistering or paint peeling off occoured.MG From: "bosdg@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2013 8:40 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Keel patches   This isn't exactly Origami, but since the forum has been quiet for a bit I was hoping to tap into the extensive pool of knowledge.  I'm looking at an aluminum hull that is in pretty good condition, but needs an total interior refit.  One thing that has me perplexed is a series of small patches (about 4" diameter) that are located along only one side (port side) of the keel.  The keel is 10" wide throughout.  I've posted photos in the album keel patches( http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/photos/albums/51875785  ) if anyone can help.  Could this be how ballast was added?  Or maybe a sign of repair? Thanks, Darren | 30478|30476|2013-09-29 19:06:46|brentswain38|Keel patches|Looks like they forgot the reply button. Looks like none exists. Those look like repairs for  corrosion points. Check for any pitting inside or out ,around them. That will indicate if there has been any  corrosion  there.| 30479|28051|2013-09-29 19:10:34|Alex Bar|Hello|Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami boats are made in steel. ThanksAlex| 30480|28051|2013-09-29 19:31:29|brentswain38|Re: Hello|There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel . Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere. Zero corrosion.  In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime, eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% . Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing light air performance.With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami boats are made in steel. ThanksAlex| 30481|28051|2013-09-30 09:41:26|Matt Malone|Re: Hello| >In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get >severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the >inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent >it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use >cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . The temperature that a surface can get to in the sun is dependent on how reflective the surface is to visible and near infra-red light -- the bulk of the energy fromthe sun.   It is also dependent on how easily the surface gets rid of heat, partially through emitting low frequency infrared light.  "Black" things perfectly absorb all light and perfectly emit light at a different frequency.   Thing is, not everything has uniform properties over all frequenciesof light.  Steel and oxidized aluminium are more "black" to the near-infrared, the heat of the sun, and more "white" at lower temperature infra-red, so they get quite unexpectedly hot in the sun.The point of this is, not all "white" paint is created equal.   What you want is a paint that is very white at the frequencies we do not see, the near-infrared.Gold (the metal, as plating, foil and as a film on polymer sheet) was actually one of the most "white"surfaces known relative to the bulk of the heat of the sun.  There are now cool white paints that areeven better,  tailored to minimize temperature, and it all looks just as white as any other white paint.  If in doubt, paint some scraps of metal with different paint options, leave them laying on the grass in the sun, and then come back and feelthem.   You will certainly notice a big difference for paint that is very "white" to infra-red.   The best paint for your deck might not be the cheaper option, and it may make a big difference.Matt | 30482|28051|2013-09-30 15:51:28|Alex Bar|Re: Hello|Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium) and considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?ThanksAlex| 30483|28051|2013-09-30 16:03:28|brentswain38|Re: Hello|When I was asked to work on a gray primed hull which was to far gone to not need sandblasting, and it was hot summer weather, I insisted he paint it with cheap white paint from the recycling depot.  He did, and  in the sun, the hull felt cool to the  touch, while a gray primed on right next to it was almost too hot to touch. A while back on this site, someone mentioned a rusty tank which was 57 degrees in the sun. He painted it with cheap white paint, and the temperature dropped to 32 degrees.Any white is far better than other colours. Beware of snake oil  type paint salesmen trying to con you into super expensive products . ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get >severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the >inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent >it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use >cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . The temperature that a surface can get to in the sun is dependent on how reflective the surface is to visible and near infra-red light -- the bulk of the energy fromthe sun.   It is also dependent on how easily the surface gets rid of heat, partially through emitting low frequency infrared light.  "Black" things perfectly absorb all light and perfectly emit light at a different frequency.   Thing is, not everything has uniform properties over all frequenciesof light.  Steel and oxidized aluminium are more "black" to the near-infrared, the heat of the sun, and more "white" at lower temperature infra-red, so they get quite unexpectedly hot in the sun.The point of this is, not all "white" paint is created equal.   What you want is a paint that is very white at the frequencies we do not see, the near-infrared.Gold (the metal, as plating, foil and as a film on polymer sheet) was actually one of the most "white"surfaces known relative to the bulk of the heat of the sun.  There are now cool white paints that areeven better,  tailored to minimize temperature, and it all looks just as white as any other white paint.  If in doubt, paint some scraps of metal with different paint options, leave them laying on the grass in the sun, and then come back and feelthem.   You will certainly notice a big difference for paint that is very "white" to infra-red.   The best paint for your deck might not be the cheaper option, and it may make a big difference.Matt | 30484|28051|2013-10-01 16:48:02|brentswain38|Re: Hello|There is very little chance of  a collision  tearing a hole in the middle of the plate on a 36 footer made of either  material, but with aluminium, weld cracking is far more common.  My book has some suggestions for overcoming this potential weakness in aluminium welding .  The tensions from origami building are tiny compared to the tensions from weld shrinkage of plate being welded over a rigid frame, with little give to compensate. Things can give a lot more with origami construction, greatly reducing the tension on welds, etc. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium) and considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?ThanksAlex| 30485|28051|2013-10-01 17:44:23|audeojude|Re: Hello| we just put new nonskid down old nonskid was tan and hot enough in the SC sun to burn your feet. went to a cream color and can comfortably walk on it in the same conditions. Thought about white but I wanted some contrast and the white glares in full sunlight so bad that it hurts my eyes to look at the deck. The cream was a good compromise.  We went with a Waterbased, 100% Aliphatic Polyurethane? Kinda rubberized paint with rubber chunks in it. Aggressive but soft on the feet and skin at the same time. Easy prep and painting.. I will find out over time if I made a mistake on durability though. http://store.acrytech.com/Soft-Tread-Anti-Slip-Coating-Standard-Colors.html Cost about 400 for paint shipping, rollers, brushes, tape etc to paint the decks and cabin tops on a Downeaster 38. 19500 lb cruising sailboat.Scott ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:When I was asked to work on a gray primed hull which was to far gone to not need sandblasting, and it was hot summer weather, I insisted he paint it with cheap white paint from the recycling depot.  He did, and  in the sun, the hull felt cool to the  touch, while a gray primed on right next to it was almost too hot to touch. A while back on this site, someone mentioned a rusty tank which was 57 degrees in the sun. He painted it with cheap white paint, and the temperature dropped to 32 degrees.Any white is far better than other colours. Beware of snake oil  type paint salesmen trying to con you into super expensive products . ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get >severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the >inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent >it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use >cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . The temperature that a surface can get to in the sun is dependent on how reflective the surface is to visible and near infra-red light -- the bulk of the energy fromthe sun.   It is also dependent on how easily the surface gets rid of heat, partially through emitting low frequency infrared light.  "Black" things perfectly absorb all light and perfectly emit light at a different frequency.   Thing is, not everything has uniform properties over all frequenciesof light.  Steel and oxidized aluminium are more "black" to the near-infrared, the heat of the sun, and more "white" at lower temperature infra-red, so they get quite unexpectedly hot in the sun.The point of this is, not all "white" paint is created equal.   What you want is a paint that is very white at the frequencies we do not see, the near-infrared.Gold (the metal, as plating, foil and as a film on polymer sheet) was actually one of the most "white"surfaces known relative to the bulk of the heat of the sun.  There are now cool white paints that areeven better,  tailored to minimize temperature, and it all looks just as white as any other white paint.  If in doubt, paint some scraps of metal with different paint options, leave them laying on the grass in the sun, and then come back and feelthem.   You will certainly notice a big difference for paint that is very "white" to infra-red.   The best paint for your deck might not be the cheaper option, and it may make a big difference.Matt | 30486|30486|2013-10-02 15:16:59|Alex Bar|Fwd: hello|---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/2Subject: Re: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo if I understand there is no point in choosing steel or alluminium thinking about strenght and safety of your yacht. They are bought the same, for building origami method too. It might be important choose one instead of the other thinking about future maintenance and problems.Does it make sense to build the shall of a boat made of steel (more welding resistance, less risks of galvanic problems, cheaper) and side decks plus cabin made of alluminium (lighter for better sailing performance, free future maintenance)?Alex | 30487|30486|2013-10-02 15:33:20|mauro gonzaga|Re: Fwd: hello|Mind that you cannot weld alu over steel. Or you use an intermediate stripe of steel with alu clad by explosion so welding of deck is made on alu cladding and steel hull is welded to steel, or you bolt the aluminum deck over the hull.Mauro From: Alex Bar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 6:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Fwd: hello   ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/2Subject: Re: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo if I understand there is no point in choosing steel or alluminium thinking about strenght and safety of your yacht. They are bought the same, for building origami method too. It might be important choose one instead of the other thinking about future maintenance and problems.Does it make sense to build the shall of a boat made of steel (more welding resistance, less risks of galvanic problems, cheaper) and side decks plus cabin made of alluminium (lighter for better sailing performance, free future maintenance)?Alex | 30488|30486|2013-10-02 15:58:13|brentswain38|Re: Fwd: hello|Steel is much tougher ,far less prone to sudden corrosion problems below the waterline and a fraction the cost. It can be built outside, without having  wait for perfect conditions to weld . Steel welds are much harder to screw up, and very rarely break on a small boat while aluminium welds are often cracking.As the hull- deck joint is what takes the entire twisting loads of a hull, and takes a lot more seawater , and is  a bad place for corrosion and leaks, that would be a poor  place to  change materials .. As cabin sides don't weigh much, especially with  ports cut out, there is no point in doing them in aluminium, Doing the cabin top in aluminium would save considerable weight, high up. I have done that recently on a 40 footer, bolting the aluminium to a stainless flatbar welded to the cabin side. It worked out well, and was much lighter than the plywood cabin top it replaced. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/2Subject: Re: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo if I understand there is no point in choosing steel or alluminium thinking about strenght and safety of your yacht. They are bought the same, for building origami method too. It might be important choose one instead of the other thinking about future maintenance and problems.Does it make sense to build the shall of a boat made of steel (more welding resistance, less risks of galvanic problems, cheaper) and side decks plus cabin made of alluminium (lighter for better sailing performance, free future maintenance)?Alex | 30489|30486|2013-10-03 15:29:40|mauro gonzaga|Re: Fwd: hello|This is a good compromise of weight and resistance.Mauro From: "brentswain38@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 9:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello   Steel is much tougher ,far less prone to sudden corrosion problems below the waterline and a fraction the cost. It can be built outside, without having  wait for perfect conditions to weld . Steel welds are much harder to screw up, and very rarely break on a small boat while aluminium welds are often cracking.As the hull- deck joint is what takes the entire twisting loads of a hull, and takes a lot more seawater , and is  a bad place for corrosion and leaks, that would be a poor  place to  change materials .. As cabin sides don't weigh much, especially with  ports cut out, there is no point in doing them in aluminium, Doing the cabin top in aluminium would save considerable weight, high up. I have done that recently on a 40 footer, bolting the aluminium to a stainless flatbar welded to the cabin side. It worked out well, and was much lighter than the plywood cabin top it replaced. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/2Subject: Re: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo if I understand there is no point in choosing steel or alluminium thinking about strenght and safety of your yacht. They are bought the same, for building origami method too. It might be important choose one instead of the other thinking about future maintenance and problems.Does it make sense to build the shall of a boat made of steel (more welding resistance, less risks of galvanic problems, cheaper) and side decks plus cabin made of alluminium (lighter for better sailing performance, free future maintenance)?Alex #ygrps-yiv-588497546 #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856 #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856 -- #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-588497546 #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856 #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-588497546 #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856 #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-588497546 #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856 #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856ygrp-mkp 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#ygrps-yiv-588497546 #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856 #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-588497546 #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856 #ygrps-yiv-588497546yiv0559861856ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-588497546 | 30490|28051|2013-10-05 11:26:04|Alex Bar|Re: Hello|Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium) and considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?ThanksAlex 2013/9/30   There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel . Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere. Zero corrosion.   In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime, eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium  Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% .  Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing light air performance. With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami boats are made in steel. ThanksAlex | 30491|28051|2013-10-05 11:26:18|Alex Bar|Re: Hello|So if I understand there is no point in choosing steel or alluminium thinking about strenght and safety of your yacht. There are bought the same, for building origami method too. It might be important choose one instead of the other thinking about future maintenance and problems.Does it make sense to build the shall of a boat made of steel (more welding resistance, less risks of galvanic problems, cheaper) and side decks plus cabin made of alluminium (lighter for better sailing performance, free future maintenance)? Alex| 30492|30486|2013-10-05 11:26:32|Alex Bar|Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello|There is something not really clear to me. We are talking about pros and cons of steel and alluminium. We talk about weight, tendence to corrode, costs, resistance. Of course I think that we all know that a perfect material doesen't exist. So the better choise is what is more suitable for each of us. And that is a point. But maybe this is a point of view from a self boat builder. I mean not professional.If we have a look at the professional boat builders maybe this coversation doesen't make sense (just a rational thinking I don't wont to be offensive at all). There are big steel motor yacht with no rusting problem at all, there are hundred af alluminium yachts not corroding and not weak at all too. Am I wrong? So maybe the matter, the trick, belongs to a proper way to deal with each kind of stuff, difficult for a self builder.And this is talking about steel and alluminium. But if we Talk about fiberglass for instance, the difference is huge. No way to compare the strenght between metals and plastic. Alex---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Date: 2013/10/2Subject: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Steel is much tougher ,far less prone to sudden corrosion problems below the waterline and a fraction the cost. It can be built outside, without having  wait for perfect conditions to weld . Steel welds are much harder to screw up, and very rarely break on a small boat while aluminium welds are often cracking. As the hull- deck joint is what takes the entire twisting loads of a hull, and takes a lot more seawater , and is  a bad place for corrosion and leaks, that would be a poor  place to  change materials .. As cabin sides don't weigh much, especially with  ports cut out, there is no point in doing them in aluminium, Doing the cabin top in aluminium would save considerable weight, high up. I have done that recently on a 40 footer, bolting the aluminium to a stainless flatbar welded to the cabin side. It worked out well, and was much lighter than the plywood cabin top it replaced. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/2Subject: Re: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo if I understand there is no point in choosing steel or alluminium thinking about strenght and safety of your yacht. They are bought the same, for building origami method too. It might be important choose one instead of the other thinking about future maintenance and problems.Does it make sense to build the shall of a boat made of steel (more welding resistance, less risks of galvanic problems, cheaper) and side decks plus cabin made of alluminium (lighter for better sailing performance, free future maintenance)?Alex | 30493|30486|2013-10-05 11:27:29|Alex Bar|Re: Fwd: hello|There is something not really clear to me. We are talking about pros and cons of steel and alluminium. We talk about weight, tendence to corrode, costs, resistance. Of course I think that we all know that a perfect material doesen't exist. So the better choise is what is more suitable for each of us. And that is a point. But maybe this is a point of wiew from a self boat builder. I mean not professional.If we have a look at the professional boat builders maybe this coversation doesen't make sense (just a rational thinking I don't wont to be offensive at all). There are big steel motor yacht with no rusting problem at all, there are hundred af alluminium yachts not corroding and not weak at all too. Am I wrong? So maybe the matter, the trick, belongs to a proper way to deal with each kind of stuff, difficult for a self builder.And this is talking about steel and alluminium. But if we Talk about fiberglass for instance, the difference is huge. No way to compare the strenght between metals and plastic. AlexSteel is much tougher ,far less prone to sudden corrosion problems below the waterline and a fraction the cost. It can be built outside, without having  wait for perfect conditions to weld . Steel welds are much harder to screw up, and very rarely break on a small boat while aluminium welds are often cracking.As the hull- deck joint is what takes the entire twisting loads of a hull, and takes a lot more seawater , and is  a bad place for corrosion and leaks, that would be a poor  place to  change materials .. As cabin sides don't weigh much, especially with  ports cut out, there is no point in doing them in aluminium, Doing the cabin top in aluminium would save considerable weight, high up. I have done that recently on a 40 footer, bolting the aluminium to a stainless flatbar welded to the cabin side. It worked out well, and was much lighter than the plywood cabin top it replaced.2013/10/2   Steel is much tougher ,far less prone to sudden corrosion problems below the waterline and a fraction the cost. It can be built outside, without having  wait for perfect conditions to weld . Steel welds are much harder to screw up, and very rarely break on a small boat while aluminium welds are often cracking. As the hull- deck joint is what takes the entire twisting loads of a hull, and takes a lot more seawater , and is  a bad place for corrosion and leaks, that would be a poor  place to  change materials .. As cabin sides don't weigh much, especially with  ports cut out, there is no point in doing them in aluminium, Doing the cabin top in aluminium would save considerable weight, high up. I have done that recently on a 40 footer, bolting the aluminium to a stainless flatbar welded to the cabin side. It worked out well, and was much lighter than the plywood cabin top it replaced. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/2Subject: Re: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo if I understand there is no point in choosing steel or alluminium thinking about strenght and safety of your yacht. They are bought the same, for building origami method too. It might be important choose one instead of the other thinking about future maintenance and problems.Does it make sense to build the shall of a boat made of steel (more welding resistance, less risks of galvanic problems, cheaper) and side decks plus cabin made of alluminium (lighter for better sailing performance, free future maintenance)?Alex | 30494|28051|2013-10-05 11:28:42|Alex Bar|Re: Hello|Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium) and considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?ThanksAlex 2013/9/30   There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel . Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere. Zero corrosion.   In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime, eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium  Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% .  Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing light air performance. With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami boats are made in steel. ThanksAlex | 30495|30486|2013-10-05 12:06:52|Aaron|Re: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello|Alex Tell us a little about yourself. What is your normal line of work. What welding experience do you have? People who have the ability to build in aluminum can so. I can weld aluminum but choose to build with steel . Out doors just like in Alex and Brents video. My work and other decisions have my the buuld time far longer than it should have taken. Strengths of both materials is easy to Google. Money is the issue. Go price just the 4 - 8' x 36' sheets for hull shell. Also get Brents book Aaron Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android From: Alex Bar ; To: ; Subject: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello Sent: Fri, Oct 4, 2013 11:53:22 AM   There is something not really clear to me. We are talking about pros and cons of steel and alluminium. We talk about weight, tendence to corrode, costs, resistance. Of course I think that we all know that a perfect material doesen't exist. So the better choise is what is more suitable for each of us. And that is a point. But maybe this is a point of view from a self boat builder. I mean not professional.If we have a look at the professional boat builders maybe this coversation doesen't make sense (just a rational thinking I don't wont to be offensive at all). There are big steel motor yacht with no rusting problem at all, there are hundred af alluminium yachts not corroding and not weak at all too. Am I wrong? So maybe the matter, the trick, belongs to a proper way to deal with each kind of stuff, difficult for a self builder.And this is talking about steel and alluminium. But if we Talk about fiberglass for instance, the difference is huge. No way to compare the strenght between metals and plastic. Alex---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Date: 2013/10/2Subject: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Steel is much tougher ,far less prone to sudden corrosion problems below the waterline and a fraction the cost. It can be built outside, without having  wait for perfect conditions to weld . Steel welds are much harder to screw up, and very rarely break on a small boat while aluminium welds are often cracking. As the hull- deck joint is what takes the entire twisting loads of a hull, and takes a lot more seawater , and is  a bad place for corrosion and leaks, that would be a poor  place to  change materials .. As cabin sides don't weigh much, especially with  ports cut out, there is no point in doing them in aluminium, Doing the cabin top in aluminium would save considerable weight, high up. I have done that recently on a 40 footer, bolting the aluminium to a stainless flatbar welded to the cabin side. It worked out well, and was much lighter than the plywood cabin top it replaced. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/2Subject: Re: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo if I understand there is no point in choosing steel or alluminium thinking about strenght and safety of your yacht. They are bought the same, for building origami method too. It might be important choose one instead of the other thinking about future maintenance and problems.Does it make sense to build the shall of a boat made of steel (more welding resistance, less risks of galvanic problems, cheaper) and side decks plus cabin made of alluminium (lighter for better sailing performance, free future maintenance)?Alex | 30496|28051|2013-10-05 18:12:36|brentswain38|Re: Hello|There is no problem there, but my book  describes ways to deal with the lower reliability of aluminium welds.  With origami construction the loads are far less than those on welds on plate put over a rigid framework ,then shrink while cooling,  with  no way for the framework to give .  The stresses  on origami boat welds are far less than that. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium) and considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?ThanksAlex 2013/9/30   There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel . Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere. Zero corrosion.   In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime, eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium  Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% .  Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing light air performance. With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami boats are made in steel. ThanksAlex | 30497|30486|2013-10-05 18:36:53|Alex Bar|Re: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello|I'm not a professional welder but I've the knowledge for tack welding an entire boat and ask someone else for professional full welds. What surprise me is the method. I can recognize the huge advantagies compare to traditional methods.Money is the issue, I know. I just wonder what is the best solution (if there is one) comparing steel and alluminium and working not as a self builder but in a sheltered place, with professional tools and lifting crane.Bulding thinking about strenght, safety of your yacht, durability, long term maintenance, etc. Alex2013/10/5 Aaron   Alex Tell us a little about yourself. What is your normal line of work. What welding experience do you have? People who have the ability to build in aluminum can so. I can weld aluminum but choose to build with steel . Out doors just like in Alex and Brents video. My work and other decisions have my the buuld time far longer than it should have taken. Strengths of both materials is easy to Google. Money is the issue. Go price just the 4 - 8' x 36' sheets for hull shell. Also get Brents book Aaron Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android From: Alex Bar ; To: ; Subject: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello Sent: Fri, Oct 4, 2013 11:53:22 AM   There is something not really clear to me. We are talking about pros and cons of steel and alluminium. We talk about weight, tendence to corrode, costs, resistance. Of course I think that we all know that a perfect material doesen't exist. So the better choise is what is more suitable for each of us. And that is a point. But maybe this is a point of view from a self boat builder. I mean not professional.If we have a look at the professional boat builders maybe this coversation doesen't make sense (just a rational thinking I don't wont to be offensive at all). There are big steel motor yacht with no rusting problem at all, there are hundred af alluminium yachts not corroding and not weak at all too. Am I wrong? So maybe the matter, the trick, belongs to a proper way to deal with each kind of stuff, difficult for a self builder.And this is talking about steel and alluminium. But if we Talk about fiberglass for instance, the difference is huge. No way to compare the strenght between metals and plastic. Alex---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Date: 2013/10/2Subject: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Steel is much tougher ,far less prone to sudden corrosion problems below the waterline and a fraction the cost. It can be built outside, without having  wait for perfect conditions to weld . Steel welds are much harder to screw up, and very rarely break on a small boat while aluminium welds are often cracking. As the hull- deck joint is what takes the entire twisting loads of a hull, and takes a lot more seawater , and is  a bad place for corrosion and leaks, that would be a poor  place to  change materials .. As cabin sides don't weigh much, especially with  ports cut out, there is no point in doing them in aluminium, Doing the cabin top in aluminium would save considerable weight, high up. I have done that recently on a 40 footer, bolting the aluminium to a stainless flatbar welded to the cabin side. It worked out well, and was much lighter than the plywood cabin top it replaced. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/2Subject: Re: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo if I understand there is no point in choosing steel or alluminium thinking about strenght and safety of your yacht. They are bought the same, for building origami method too. It might be important choose one instead of the other thinking about future maintenance and problems. Does it make sense to build the shall of a boat made of steel (more welding resistance, less risks of galvanic problems, cheaper) and side decks plus cabin made of alluminium (lighter for better sailing performance, free future maintenance)?Alex | 30498|30486|2013-10-05 19:09:29|Aaron|Re: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello|Alex Just a comparison I talked with one person that had a lot of boat work done by others he paid and he is on the water at a cost of 130 to 140,000 US.  I have salvaged what I could find and done most of the work myself with almost everything already paid for, from steel hull to the 3 burner cook stove. Wood for the interior, cushions, Motor. Mast, etc. for around $45,000 US, But I am not in the water yet. Again Brent's method is SIMPLE and it will work. We as in most people have a tendency to complicate things. Spend a week or two reading past messages from the group there is a lot of shared knowledge.  Get the Book, Get the video, Buy the plans for the boat size you want to build and start collecting while prefabricating small parts.     Aaron From: Alex Bar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 5, 2013 1:50 PMSubject: Re: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello   I'm not a professional welder but I've the knowledge for tack welding an entire boat and ask someone else for professional full welds. What surprise me is the method. I can recognize the huge advantagies compare to traditional methods.Money is the issue, I know. I just wonder what is the best solution (if there is one) comparing steel and alluminium and working not as a self builder but in a sheltered place, with professional tools and lifting crane. Bulding thinking about strenght, safety of your yacht, durability, long term maintenance, etc. Alex 2013/10/5 Aaron   Alex Tell us a little about yourself. What is your normal line of work.What welding experience do you have? People who have the ability to build in aluminum can so. I can weld aluminum but choose to build with steel . Out doors just like in Alex and Brents video. My work and other decisions have my the buuld time far longer than it should have taken. Strengths of both materials is easy to Google.Money is the issue. Go price just the 4 - 8' x 36' sheets for hull shell. Also get Brents book Aaron Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android From: Alex Bar ; To: ; Subject: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello Sent: Fri, Oct 4, 2013 11:53:22 AM   There is something not really clear to me. We are talking about pros and cons of steel and alluminium. We talk about weight, tendence to corrode, costs, resistance. Of course I think that we all know that a perfect material doesen't exist. So the better choise is what is more suitable for each of us. And that is a point. But maybe this is a point of view from a self boat builder. I mean not professional. If we have a look at the professional boat builders maybe this coversation doesen't make sense (just a rational thinking I don't wont to be offensive at all). There are big steel motor yacht with no rusting problem at all, there are hundred af alluminium yachts not corroding and not weak at all too. Am I wrong? So maybe the matter, the trick, belongs to a proper way to deal with each kind of stuff, difficult for a self builder. And this is talking about steel and alluminium. But if we Talk about fiberglass for instance, the difference is huge. No way to compare the strenght between metals and plastic. Alex ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: 2013/10/2 Subject: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Steel is much tougher ,far less prone to sudden corrosion problems below the waterline and a fraction the cost. It can be built outside, without having  wait for perfect conditions to weld . Steel welds are much harder to screw up, and very rarely break on a small boat while aluminium welds are often cracking. As the hull- deck joint is what takes the entire twisting loads of a hull, and takes a lot more seawater , and is  a bad place for corrosion and leaks, that would be a poor  place to  change materials .. As cabin sides don't weigh much, especially with  ports cut out, there is no point in doing them in aluminium, Doing the cabin top in aluminium would save considerable weight, high up. I have done that recently on a 40 footer, bolting the aluminium to a stainless flatbar welded to the cabin side. It worked out well, and was much lighter than the plywood cabin top it replaced. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/2 Subject: Re: hello To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com So if I understand there is no point in choosing steel or alluminium thinking about strenght and safety of your yacht. They are bought the same, for building origami method too. It might be important choose one instead of the other thinking about future maintenance and problems. Does it make sense to build the shall of a boat made of steel (more welding resistance, less risks of galvanic problems, cheaper) and side decks plus cabin made of alluminium (lighter for better sailing performance, free future maintenance)?Alex #ygrps-yiv-1790865805 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272 -- #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1790865805 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1790865805 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1790865805 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1790865805 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#ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1790865805 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1790865805 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1790865805 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272 #ygrps-yiv-1790865805yiv2638932272ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1790865805 | 30499|28051|2013-10-05 20:43:47|Matt Malone|Re: Hello| Alex,Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material.   Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of it in a structure, thicker sheets.   But the dent stiffness goes by the thickness cubed.  So the less strong material that is thicker to have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness.   So that says aluminium is better.  But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot harder to weld.   The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built into the inside.  The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand .   It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, cut, weld, repeat.   A pro wants to weld weld weld.   Yes tack a lot, but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big assemblies ready for them.   As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel.   MattFrom: alebarale33@...To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:57:25 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium) and considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?ThanksAlex 2013/9/30   There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel . Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere. Zero corrosion.   In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime, eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium  Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% .  Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing light air performance. With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami boats are made in steel. ThanksAlex | 30500|28051|2013-10-05 23:32:02|Paul Wilson|Re: Hello|My ideal boat would be a steel hull with aluminum deck. Steel is quite forgiving under the waterline if you scrape or chip it. Not so with aluminum. It is possible to make a beautifully looking aluminum weld that is fully penetrated but still has almost no strength so you really need to know what you are doing. As others have already said, cleanliness and environment is important when welding aluminum. Making a shelter just to build an aluminum hull or deck could add greatly to the cost and may not be worth it. I really like some of the thick skinned aluminum boats. They seem to be typically made by the Europeans. They have no paint other than the bottom and the non-skid. You save a lot of money and maintenance by not having to paint or blast the rest of the boat. Some don't like it but I kind of like the work boat look and have grown to like it.... Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 5/10/2013 8:43 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > Alex, > > Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material. > Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of > it in a structure, thicker sheets. But the dent stiffness goes by > the thickness cubed. So the less strong material that is thicker to > have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness. So that > says aluminium is better. But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot > harder to weld. > > The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built > into the inside. The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand > . It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, > cut, weld, repeat. A pro wants to weld weld weld. Yes tack a lot, > but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big > assemblies ready for them. > > As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel. > > Matt | 30501|28051|2013-10-07 15:35:12|brentswain38|Re: Hello|I wouldn't make the transition form aluminium to steel at the hull deck joint, Going aluminium for the   cabin top woul     lmake a lot more sense. Did that recently, worked out well.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:My ideal boat would be a steel hull with aluminum deck. Steel is quite forgiving under the waterline if you scrape or chip it. Not so with aluminum. It is possible to make a beautifully looking aluminum weld that is fully penetrated but still has almost no strength so you really need to know what you are doing. As others have already said, cleanliness and environment is important when welding aluminum. Making a shelter just to build an aluminum hull or deck could add greatly to the cost and may not be worth it. I really like some of the thick skinned aluminum boats. They seem to be typically made by the Europeans. They have no paint other than the bottom and the non-skid. You save a lot of money and maintenance by not having to paint or blast the rest of the boat. Some don't like it but I kind of like the work boat look and have grown to like it.... Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 5/10/2013 8:43 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > Alex, > > Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material. > Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of > it in a structure, thicker sheets. But the dent stiffness goes by > the thickness cubed. So the less strong material that is thicker to > have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness. So that > says aluminium is better. But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot > harder to weld. > > The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built > into the inside. The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand > . It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, > cut, weld, repeat. A pro wants to weld weld weld. Yes tack a lot, > but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big > assemblies ready for them. > > As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel. > > Matt | 30502|28051|2013-10-07 15:56:13|Aaron|Re: Hello|Brent What thickness aluminum would you recommend for the pilot house top. Also framing same as steel witg 1" flat bar Aaron Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android From: brentswain38@... ; To: ; Subject: RE: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 7:35:12 PM   I wouldn't make the transition form aluminium to steel at the hull deck joint, Going aluminium for the   cabin top woul     lmake a lot more sense. Did that recently, worked out well.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:My ideal boat would be a steel hull with aluminum deck. Steel is quite forgiving under the waterline if you scrape or chip it. Not so with aluminum. It is possible to make a beautifully looking aluminum weld that is fully penetrated but still has almost no strength so you really need to know what you are doing. As others have already said, cleanliness and environment is important when welding aluminum. Making a shelter just to build an aluminum hull or deck could add greatly to the cost and may not be worth it. I really like some of the thick skinned aluminum boats. They seem to be typically made by the Europeans. They have no paint other than the bottom and the non-skid. You save a lot of money and maintenance by not having to paint or blast the rest of the boat. Some don't like it but I kind of like the work boat look and have grown to like it.... Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 5/10/2013 8:43 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > Alex, > > Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material. > Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of > it in a structure, thicker sheets. But the dent stiffness goes by > the thickness cubed. So the less strong material that is thicker to > have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness. So that > says aluminium is better. But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot > harder to weld. > > The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built > into the inside. The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand > . It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, > cut, weld, repeat. A pro wants to weld weld weld. Yes tack a lot, > but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big > assemblies ready for them. > > As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel. > > Matt | 30503|28051|2013-10-08 05:22:38|martin demers|Re: Hello| Hi brent,For that aluminium cabin top you did , did you used many aluminium plates,how did you joined them together?Thanks, MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: brentswain38@...Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 12:35:12 -0700Subject: RE: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   I wouldn't make the transition form aluminium to steel at the hull deck joint, Going aluminium for the   cabin top woul     lmake a lot more sense. Did that recently, worked out well.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:My ideal boat would be a steel hull with aluminum deck. Steel is quite forgiving under the waterline if you scrape or chip it. Not so with aluminum. It is possible to make a beautifully looking aluminum weld that is fully penetrated but still has almost no strength so you really need to know what you are doing. As others have already said, cleanliness and environment is important when welding aluminum. Making a shelter just to build an aluminum hull or deck could add greatly to the cost and may not be worth it. I really like some of the thick skinned aluminum boats. They seem to be typically made by the Europeans. They have no paint other than the bottom and the non-skid. You save a lot of money and maintenance by not having to paint or blast the rest of the boat. Some don't like it but I kind of like the work boat look and have grown to like it.... Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 5/10/2013 8:43 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > Alex, > > Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material. > Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of > it in a structure, thicker sheets. But the dent stiffness goes by > the thickness cubed. So the less strong material that is thicker to > have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness. So that > says aluminium is better. But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot > harder to weld. > > The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built > into the inside. The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand > . It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, > cut, weld, repeat. A pro wants to weld weld weld. Yes tack a lot, > but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big > assemblies ready for them. > > As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel. > > Matt | 30504|30504|2013-10-09 18:06:19|Alex Bar|Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Hello|---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/7Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: HelloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo, the den't stiffness is a kind of strenght resistance that nothing has to do with sheet properties. Just a matter of thickness. Is that wright? Have I correctly understood? Alex2013/10/6 Matt Malone   Alex,Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material.   Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of it in a structure, thicker sheets.   But the dent stiffness goes by the thickness cubed.  So the less strong material that is thicker to have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness.   So that says aluminium is better.  But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot harder to weld.   The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built into the inside.  The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand .   It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, cut, weld, repeat.   A pro wants to weld weld weld.   Yes tack a lot, but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big assemblies ready for them.   As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel.   MattFrom: alebarale33@...To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:57:25 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium) and considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?ThanksAlex 2013/9/30   There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel . Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere. Zero corrosion.   In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime, eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium  Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% .  Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing light air performance. With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami boats are made in steel. ThanksAlex | 30505|28051|2013-10-09 18:09:46|brentswain38|Re: Hello|We used 4-4x8 ft 3/16th plates welded together  for the trunk cabin top, and 3 for the wheelhouse top.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi brent,For that aluminium cabin top you did , did you used many aluminium plates,how did you joined them together?Thanks, MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: brentswain38@...Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 12:35:12 -0700Subject: RE: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   I wouldn't make the transition form aluminium to steel at the hull deck joint, Going aluminium for the   cabin top woul     lmake a lot more sense. Did that recently, worked out well.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:My ideal boat would be a steel hull with aluminum deck. Steel is quite forgiving under the waterline if you scrape or chip it. Not so with aluminum. It is possible to make a beautifully looking aluminum weld that is fully penetrated but still has almost no strength so you really need to know what you are doing. As others have already said, cleanliness and environment is important when welding aluminum. Making a shelter just to build an aluminum hull or deck could add greatly to the cost and may not be worth it. I really like some of the thick skinned aluminum boats. They seem to be typically made by the Europeans. They have no paint other than the bottom and the non-skid. You save a lot of money and maintenance by not having to paint or blast the rest of the boat. Some don't like it but I kind of like the work boat look and have grown to like it.... Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 5/10/2013 8:43 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > Alex, > > Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material. > Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of > it in a structure, thicker sheets. But the dent stiffness goes by > the thickness cubed. So the less strong material that is thicker to > have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness. So that > says aluminium is better. But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot > harder to weld. > > The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built > into the inside. The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand > . It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, > cut, weld, repeat. A pro wants to weld weld weld. Yes tack a lot, > but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big > assemblies ready for them. > > As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel. > > Matt | 30506|28051|2013-10-09 21:12:05|mauro gonzaga|Re: Hello|It has to do with mechanical properties of the material, namely: Elongation before ropture and strength to ropture, for a given thickness. Hardness. Impact resistanceAluminum has higher impact resistance at very low temperature but at the temperature of sea water steel has no problem.Aluminum has far less elongation before ropture. Ando lower strength to ropture, which is compensated by extra thickness. Has lower hardness therefore dents more easy.In conclusion steel has more resistance to impact against the rock or other objects.Mauro On Thursday, October 10, 2013 12:09 AM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   We used 4-4x8 ft 3/16th plates welded together  for the trunk cabin top, and 3 for the wheelhouse top.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi brent,For that aluminium cabin top you did , did you used many aluminium plates,how did you joined them together?Thanks, MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: brentswain38@...Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 12:35:12 -0700Subject: RE: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   I wouldn't make the transition form aluminium to steel at the hull deck joint, Going aluminium for the   cabin top woul     lmake a lot more sense. Did that recently, worked out well.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:My ideal boat would be a steel hull with aluminum deck. Steel is quite forgiving under the waterline if you scrape or chip it. Not so with aluminum. It is possible to make a beautifully looking aluminum weld that is fully penetrated but still has almost no strength so you really need to know what you are doing. As others have already said, cleanliness and environment is important when welding aluminum. Making a shelter just to build an aluminum hull or deck could add greatly to the cost and may not be worth it. I really like some of the thick skinned aluminum boats. They seem to be typically made by the Europeans. They have no paint other than the bottom and the non-skid. You save a lot of money and maintenance by not having to paint or blast the rest of the boat. Some don't like it but I kind of like the work boat look and have grown to like it.... Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 5/10/2013 8:43 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > Alex, > > Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material. > Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of > it in a structure, thicker sheets. But the dent stiffness goes by > the thickness cubed. So the less strong material that is thicker to > have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness. So that > says aluminium is better. But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot > harder to weld. > > The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built > into the inside. The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand > . It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, > cut, weld, repeat. A pro wants to weld weld weld. Yes tack a lot, > but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big > assemblies ready for them. > > As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel. > > Matt #ygrps-yiv-1372975580 #ygrps-yiv-1372975580yiv1979262678 #ygrps-yiv-1372975580yiv1979262678 -- #ygrps-yiv-1372975580yiv1979262678ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1372975580 #ygrps-yiv-1372975580yiv1979262678 #ygrps-yiv-1372975580yiv1979262678ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1372975580 #ygrps-yiv-1372975580yiv1979262678 #ygrps-yiv-1372975580yiv1979262678ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1372975580yiv1979262678hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1372975580 #ygrps-yiv-1372975580yiv1979262678 #ygrps-yiv-1372975580yiv1979262678ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1372975580yiv1979262678ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1372975580 #ygrps-yiv-1372975580yiv1979262678 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down on the top, at some point it will bow out to the side like a bow from a bow and arrow.   These are over all properties.   There are masts made of steel, masts made of aluminium and masts made of wood.   For modestly designed masts, each of these masts might be made with the same over all properties.  (clearly a high-performance mast might be beyond the capabilities of some materials)  Their other properties will all be different.  They will weigh different amounts.  The wall of the steel mast will be thin compared to the aluminium, whereas the wood mast might be either much thicker (made of laminated sections) or a completely solid tree.   Now lets ask a question outside the normal use of a mast.   I am going to imagine we are in bad weather and the boom has broken free and is banging around.   Which mast is better ?  Though the wood one is heavier and worse in most every other way, funny enough, it is probably the best in this test.   It is because it is probably solid, and there is no such thing as putting a dent in it, like there would be with a steel pipe or thicker aluminium pipe.  Once there is a dent, pipes lose their column buckling strength.  Try crushing pop cans -- intentionally dent some on the side, then try to crush them -- easier right ?  If the over all properties are chosen to be the same, the thickness of the aluminium pipe would make the aluminium mast fair slightly better than the steel one.   The steel one would be the easiest to put a dent in.   It is because you are asking a secondary question to the design of a hull.   Lots of production fibreglass boats, ask if they are designed to touch a rock, the answer is no.   Using steel orgami provides more rock resistance than fibreglass.  No one ever promised rock-proof, though Brent will no doubt tell you many reassuring anecdotes.   If you want to design a hull to be beached on rocks or be an ice breaker, you make everything thicker, and, why not use steel to get its superior material properties ?   I was merely observing that for the same over all properties, an aluminium hull is thicker and dent resistance rises faster with thickness than do over all properties.   That said, a solid fibreglass boat, that has no core material, that is inches of solid fibreglass, will be badly abraided on rocks, but, its thickness will give it a lot of initial resistance to being punctured on rocks.  Boats like this were made a long time ago, and, are still made at great expense by some builders.   Orgami offers the opportunity for home-built, new, inexpensive boats, that gives more rock resistance than inexpensive cored fibreglass production boats.   It is a niche.  The question you ask is a detail at in one corner of the niche about a secondary benefit of orgami.   If it really is a big concern for you, solve it with direct design, not secondary benefits.   Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: alebarale33@...Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:30:52 +0200Subject: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/7Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: HelloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo, the den't stiffness is a kind of strenght resistance that nothing has to do with sheet properties. Just a matter of thickness. Is that wright? Have I correctly understood? Alex2013/10/6 Matt Malone   Alex,Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material.   Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of it in a structure, thicker sheets.   But the dent stiffness goes by the thickness cubed.  So the less strong material that is thicker to have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness.   So that says aluminium is better.  But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot harder to weld.   The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built into the inside.  The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand .   It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, cut, weld, repeat.   A pro wants to weld weld weld.   Yes tack a lot, but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big assemblies ready for them.   As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel.   MattFrom: alebarale33@...To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:57:25 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium) and considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?ThanksAlex 2013/9/30   There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel . Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere. Zero corrosion.   In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime, eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium  Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% .  Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing light air performance. With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami boats are made in steel. ThanksAlex | 30508|30508|2013-10-11 02:45:23|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|R: RE: [origamiboats] RE: Hello|Thanks to all of you. I find those professionals point of wiew extremely interesting. Matt, your explanation is great.It really fascinate me. Metal properties plus origami method ----Messaggio originale---- Da: m_j_malone@... Data: 10/10/2013 16.00 A: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Ogg: RE: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   Hey Alex,Well, it is complicated.  Lets take an easier example that has been discussed here before, and is of interest to the group.    Masts need certain overall properties, measured on an assembled structure.   They need to have a certain resistance to overall bending.  Sure the standing rigging is there to help for the vast majority of masts.  Masts also need column bucking strength.  If you take a yardstick, stand it up on the floor and press down on the top, at some point it will bow out to the side like a bow from a bow and arrow.   These are over all properties.   There are masts made of steel, masts made of aluminium and masts made of wood.   For modestly designed masts, each of these masts might be made with the same over all properties.  (clearly a high-performance mast might be beyond the capabilities of some materials)  Their other propert! ies will all be different.  They will weigh different amounts.  The wall of the steel mast will be thin compared to the aluminium, whereas the wood mast might be either much thicker (made of laminated sections) or a completely solid tree.   Now lets ask a question outside the normal use of a mast.   I am going to imagine we are in bad weather and the boom has broken free and is banging around.   Which mast is better ?  Though the wood one is heavier and worse in most every other way, funny enough, it is probably the best in this test.   It is because it is probably solid, and there is no such thing as putting a dent in it, like there would be with a steel pipe or thicker aluminium pipe.  Once there is a dent, pipes lose their column buckling strength.  Try crushing pop cans -- intentionally dent some on the side, then try to crush them -- easier right ?  If the over all properties are chosen ! to be the same, the thickness of the aluminium pipe would make the aluminium mast fair slightly better than the steel one.   The steel one would be the easiest to put a dent in.   It is because you are asking a secondary question to the design of a hull.   Lots of production fibreglass boats, ask if they are designed to touch a rock, the answer is no.   Using steel orgami provides more rock resistance than fibreglass.  No one ever promised rock-proof, though Brent will no doubt tell you many reassuring anecdotes.   If you want to design a hull to be beached on rocks or be an ice breaker, you make everything thicker, and, why not use steel to get its superior material properties ?   I was merely observing that for the same over all properties, an aluminium hull is thicker and dent resistance rises faster with thickness than do over all properties.   That said, a solid fibreglass boat, that has no core material, that is inches of solid fibreglass, will be badly abraided on rocks, but, its thickness will give it a lot of initial resistance to being punctured on rocks.  Boats like this were made a long time ago, and, are still made at great expense by some builders.   Orgami offers the opportunity for home-built, new, inexpensive boats, that gives more rock resistance than inexpensive cored fibreglass production boats.   It is a niche.  The question you ask is a detail at in one corner of the niche about a secondary benefit of orgami.   If it really is a big concern for you, solve it with direct design, not secondary benefits.   Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: alebarale33@...Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:30:52 +0200Subject: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/7Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: HelloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo, the den't stiffness is a kind of strenght resistance that nothing has to do with sheet properties. Just a matter of thickness. Is that wright? Have I correctly understood? Alex2013/10/6 Matt Malone   Alex,Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material.   Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of it in a structure, thicker sheets.   But the dent stiffness goes by the thickness cubed.  So the less strong material that is thicker to have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness.   So that says aluminium is better.  But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot harder to weld.   The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built into the inside.  The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand .   It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, cut, weld, repeat.   A pro wants to weld weld weld.   Yes tack a lot, but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big assemblies ready for them.   As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel.   MattFrom: alebarale33@...To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:57:25 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium) and considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?ThanksAlex 2013/9/30   There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel . Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere. Zero corrosion.   In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime, eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium  Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% .  Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing light air performance. With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami boats are made in steel. ThanksAlex | 30509|28051|2013-10-11 15:25:47|brentswain38|Re: Hello|We used 1 1/2 inch by 1/4 inch aluminium flat  bars on roughly 18 inch centres for the beams on the aluminium cabin top. It worked  out well . ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:We used 4-4x8 ft 3/16th plates welded together  for the trunk cabin top, and 3 for the wheelhouse top.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi brent,For that aluminium cabin top you did , did you used many aluminium plates,how did you joined them together?Thanks, MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: brentswain38@...Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 12:35:12 -0700Subject: RE: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   I wouldn't make the transition form aluminium to steel at the hull deck joint, Going aluminium for the   cabin top woul     lmake a lot more sense. Did that recently, worked out well.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:My ideal boat would be a steel hull with aluminum deck. Steel is quite forgiving under the waterline if you scrape or chip it. Not so with aluminum. It is possible to make a beautifully looking aluminum weld that is fully penetrated but still has almost no strength so you really need to know what you are doing. As others have already said, cleanliness and environment is important when welding aluminum. Making a shelter just to build an aluminum hull or deck could add greatly to the cost and may not be worth it. I really like some of the thick skinned aluminum boats. They seem to be typically made by the Europeans. They have no paint other than the bottom and the non-skid. You save a lot of money and maintenance by not having to paint or blast the rest of the boat. Some don't like it but I kind of like the work boat look and have grown to like it.... Cheers, Paul >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. > >`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸>¸.•´¯`•.¸. >…. On 5/10/2013 8:43 p.m., Matt Malone wrote: > Alex, > > Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material. > Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of > it in a structure, thicker sheets. But the dent stiffness goes by > the thickness cubed. So the less strong material that is thicker to > have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness. So that > says aluminium is better. But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot > harder to weld. > > The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built > into the inside. The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand > . It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, > cut, weld, repeat. A pro wants to weld weld weld. Yes tack a lot, > but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big > assemblies ready for them. > > As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel. > > Matt | 30510|28051|2013-10-12 03:50:30|Alex Bar|Re: Hello|So, the den't stiffness is a kind of strenght resistance that nothing has to do with sheet properties. Just a matter of thickness. Is that wright? Have I correctly understood? Alex2013/10/6 Matt Malone   Alex,Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material.   Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of it in a structure, thicker sheets.   But the dent stiffness goes by the thickness cubed.  So the less strong material that is thicker to have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness.   So that says aluminium is better.  But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot harder to weld.   The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built into the inside.  The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand .   It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, cut, weld, repeat.   A pro wants to weld weld weld.   Yes tack a lot, but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big assemblies ready for them.   As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel.   MattFrom: alebarale33@...To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:57:25 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium) and considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?ThanksAlex 2013/9/30   There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel . Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere. Zero corrosion.   In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime, eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium  Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% .  Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing light air performance. With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami boats are made in steel. ThanksAlex | 30511|30511|2013-10-12 03:50:43|Alex Bar|Fwd: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello|---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/7Subject: Re: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo, the conclusion could be: If you have a lot of money go for alluminium, lighter, strongher and even reliable becose made by professionals which should know how to deal with alluminium (like european boatyards let say). If you don't have a lot of money you are a self buider, so, go for steel, easier, more forgiving, cheaper.But if you don't trust alluminium as steel (even made by professionals) better a steel hull and an alluminium deck. A compromise between reliability and weight.Alex2013/10/6 Aaron   Alex Just a comparison I talked with one person that had a lot of boat work done by others he paid and he is on the water at a cost of 130 to 140,000 US.  I have salvaged what I could find and done most of the work myself with almost everything already paid for, from steel hull to the 3 burner cook stove. Wood for the interior, cushions, Motor. Mast, etc. for around $45,000 US, But I am not in the water yet. Again Brent's method is SIMPLE and it will work. We as in most people have a tendency to complicate things. Spend a week or two reading past messages from the group there is a lot of shared knowledge.  Get the Book, Get the video, Buy the plans for the boat size you want to build and start collecting while prefabricating small parts.     Aaron From: Alex Bar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 5, 2013 1:50 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello   I'm not a professional welder but I've the knowledge for tack welding an entire boat and ask someone else for professional full welds. What surprise me is the method. I can recognize the huge advantagies compare to traditional methods. Money is the issue, I know. I just wonder what is the best solution (if there is one) comparing steel and alluminium and working not as a self builder but in a sheltered place, with professional tools and lifting crane.Bulding thinking about strenght, safety of your yacht, durability, long term maintenance, etc. Alex 2013/10/5 Aaron   Alex Tell us a little about yourself. What is your normal line of work.What welding experience do you have? People who have the ability to build in aluminum can so. I can weld aluminum but choose to build with steel . Out doors just like in Alex and Brents video. My work and other decisions have my the buuld time far longer than it should have taken. Strengths of both materials is easy to Google.Money is the issue. Go price just the 4 - 8' x 36' sheets for hull shell. Also get Brents book Aaron Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android From: Alex Bar ; To: ; Subject: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello Sent: Fri, Oct 4, 2013 11:53:22 AM   There is something not really clear to me. We are talking about pros and cons of steel and alluminium. We talk about weight, tendence to corrode, costs, resistance. Of course I think that we all know that a perfect material doesen't exist. So the better choise is what is more suitable for each of us. And that is a point.But maybe this is a point of view from a self boat builder. I mean not professional.If we have a look at the professional boat builders maybe this coversation doesen't make sense (just a rational thinking I don't wont to be offensive at all). There are big steel motor yacht with no rusting problem at all, there are hundred af alluminium yachts not corroding and not weak at all too. Am I wrong?So maybe the matter, the trick, belongs to a proper way to deal with each kind of stuff, difficult for a self builder.And this is talking about steel and alluminium. But if we Talk about fiberglass for instance, the difference is huge. No way to compare the strenght between metals and plastic. Alex ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Date: 2013/10/2Subject: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Steel is much tougher ,far less prone to sudden corrosion problems below the waterline and a fraction the cost. It can be built outside, without having  wait for perfect conditions to weld . Steel welds are much harder to screw up, and very rarely break on a small boat while aluminium welds are often cracking. As the hull- deck joint is what takes the entire twisting loads of a hull, and takes a lot more seawater , and is  a bad place for corrosion and leaks, that would be a poor  place to  change materials .. As cabin sides don't weigh much, especially with  ports cut out, there is no point in doing them in aluminium, Doing the cabin top in aluminium would save considerable weight, high up. I have done that recently on a 40 footer, bolting the aluminium to a stainless flatbar welded to the cabin side. It worked out well, and was much lighter than the plywood cabin top it replaced. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/2Subject: Re: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com So if I understand there is no point in choosing steel or alluminium thinking about strenght and safety of your yacht. They are bought the same, for building origami method too. It might be important choose one instead of the other thinking about future maintenance and problems. Does it make sense to build the shall of a boat made of steel (more welding resistance, less risks of galvanic problems, cheaper) and side decks plus cabin made of alluminium (lighter for better sailing performance, free future maintenance)? Alex | 30512|30504|2013-10-12 03:50:46|Alex Bar|Re: Hello|Ok Matt thanks, so thinking about an avarage and normal way of sailing, I mean not extreme (no cape horniers, no ice breakers...) the solution could be alluminium if you have money, steel if you are poor and self builder. For better garanties a performances an alluminium deck or cabin top could be the compromise. What I can understand is that both alluminium and steel are great materials compare to nowdays fiberglass yacht production. Alex2013/10/10 Matt Malone   Hey Alex,Well, it is complicated.  Lets take an easier example that has been discussed here before, and is of interest to the group.    Masts need certain overall properties, measured on an assembled structure.   They need to have a certain resistance to overall bending.  Sure the standing rigging is there to help for the vast majority of masts.  Masts also need column bucking strength.  If you take a yardstick, stand it up on the floor and press down on the top, at some point it will bow out to the side like a bow from a bow and arrow.   These are over all properties.   There are masts made of steel, masts made of aluminium and masts made of wood.   For modestly designed masts, each of these masts might be made with the same over all properties.  (clearly a high-performance mast might be beyond the capabilities of some materials)  Their other properties will all be different.  They will weigh different amounts.  The wall of the steel mast will be thin compared to the aluminium, whereas the wood mast might be either much thicker (made of laminated sections) or a completely solid tree.   Now lets ask a question outside the normal use of a mast.   I am going to imagine we are in bad weather and the boom has broken free and is banging around.   Which mast is better ?  Though the wood one is heavier and worse in most every other way, funny enough, it is probably the best in this test.   It is because it is probably solid, and there is no such thing as putting a dent in it, like there would be with a steel pipe or thicker aluminium pipe.  Once there is a dent, pipes lose their column buckling strength.  Try crushing pop cans -- intentionally dent some on the side, then try to crush them -- easier right ?  If the over all properties are chosen to be the same, the thickness of the aluminium pipe would make the aluminium mast fair slightly better than the steel one.   The steel one would be the easiest to put a dent in.   It is because you are asking a secondary question to the design of a hull.   Lots of production fibreglass boats, ask if they are designed to touch a rock, the answer is no.   Using steel orgami provides more rock resistance than fibreglass.  No one ever promised rock-proof, though Brent will no doubt tell you many reassuring anecdotes.   If you want to design a hull to be beached on rocks or be an ice breaker, you make everything thicker, and, why not use steel to get its superior material properties ?   I was merely observing that for the same over all properties, an aluminium hull is thicker and dent resistance rises faster with thickness than do over all properties.   That said, a solid fibreglass boat, that has no core material, that is inches of solid fibreglass, will be badly abraided on rocks, but, its thickness will give it a lot of initial resistance to being punctured on rocks.  Boats like this were made a long time ago, and, are still made at great expense by some builders.   Orgami offers the opportunity for home-built, new, inexpensive boats, that gives more rock resistance than inexpensive cored fibreglass production boats.   It is a niche.  The question you ask is a detail at in one corner of the niche about a secondary benefit of orgami.   If it really is a big concern for you, solve it with direct design, not secondary benefits.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: alebarale33@...Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:30:52 +0200 Subject: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/7Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: HelloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSo, the den't stiffness is a kind of strenght resistance that nothing has to do with sheet properties. Just a matter of thickness. Is that wright? Have I correctly understood? Alex2013/10/6 Matt Malone   Alex,Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material.   Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of it in a structure, thicker sheets.   But the dent stiffness goes by the thickness cubed.  So the less strong material that is thicker to have the same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness.   So that says aluminium is better.  But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot harder to weld.   The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built into the inside.  The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand .   It makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, cut, weld, repeat.   A pro wants to weld weld weld.   Yes tack a lot, but, it seems the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big assemblies ready for them.   As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel.   MattFrom: alebarale33@...To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:57:25 +0200Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello   Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium) and considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?ThanksAlex 2013/9/30   There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel . Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere. Zero corrosion.   In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime, eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium  Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% .  Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing light air performance. With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami boats are made in steel. ThanksAlex | 30513|30486|2013-10-12 03:51:20|Alex Bar|Re: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello|So, the conclusion could be:If you have a lot of money go for alluminium, lighter, strongher and even reliable becose made by professionals which should know how to deal with alluminium (like european boatyards let say). If you don't have a lot of money you are a self buider, so, go for steel, easier, more forgiving, cheaper.But if you don't trust alluminium as steel (even made by professionals) better a steel hull and an alluminium deck. A compromise between reliability and weight.Alex2013/10/6 Aaron   Alex Just a comparison I talked with one person that had a lot of boat work done by others he paid and he is on the water at a cost of 130 to 140,000 US.  I have salvaged what I could find and done most of the work myself with almost everything already paid for, from steel hull to the 3 burner cook stove. Wood for the interior, cushions, Motor. Mast, etc. for around $45,000 US, But I am not in the water yet. Again Brent's method is SIMPLE and it will work. We as in most people have a tendency to complicate things. Spend a week or two reading past messages from the group there is a lot of shared knowledge.  Get the Book, Get the video, Buy the plans for the boat size you want to build and start collecting while prefabricating small parts.     Aaron From: Alex Bar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 5, 2013 1:50 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello   I'm not a professional welder but I've the knowledge for tack welding an entire boat and ask someone else for professional full welds. What surprise me is the method. I can recognize the huge advantagies compare to traditional methods. Money is the issue, I know. I just wonder what is the best solution (if there is one) comparing steel and alluminium and working not as a self builder but in a sheltered place, with professional tools and lifting crane.Bulding thinking about strenght, safety of your yacht, durability, long term maintenance, etc. Alex 2013/10/5 Aaron   Alex Tell us a little about yourself. What is your normal line of work.What welding experience do you have? People who have the ability to build in aluminum can so. I can weld aluminum but choose to build with steel . Out doors just like in Alex and Brents video. My work and other decisions have my the buuld time far longer than it should have taken. Strengths of both materials is easy to Google.Money is the issue. Go price just the 4 - 8' x 36' sheets for hull shell. Also get Brents book Aaron Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android From: Alex Bar ; To: ; Subject: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: hello Sent: Fri, Oct 4, 2013 11:53:22 AM   There is something not really clear to me. We are talking about pros and cons of steel and alluminium. We talk about weight, tendence to corrode, costs, resistance. Of course I think that we all know that a perfect material doesen't exist. So the better choise is what is more suitable for each of us. And that is a point.But maybe this is a point of view from a self boat builder. I mean not professional.If we have a look at the professional boat builders maybe this coversation doesen't make sense (just a rational thinking I don't wont to be offensive at all). There are big steel motor yacht with no rusting problem at all, there are hundred af alluminium yachts not corroding and not weak at all too. Am I wrong?So maybe the matter, the trick, belongs to a proper way to deal with each kind of stuff, difficult for a self builder.And this is talking about steel and alluminium. But if we Talk about fiberglass for instance, the difference is huge. No way to compare the strenght between metals and plastic. Alex ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Date: 2013/10/2Subject: [origamiboats] RE: Fwd: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Steel is much tougher ,far less prone to sudden corrosion problems below the waterline and a fraction the cost. It can be built outside, without having  wait for perfect conditions to weld . Steel welds are much harder to screw up, and very rarely break on a small boat while aluminium welds are often cracking. As the hull- deck joint is what takes the entire twisting loads of a hull, and takes a lot more seawater , and is  a bad place for corrosion and leaks, that would be a poor  place to  change materials .. As cabin sides don't weigh much, especially with  ports cut out, there is no point in doing them in aluminium, Doing the cabin top in aluminium would save considerable weight, high up. I have done that recently on a 40 footer, bolting the aluminium to a stainless flatbar welded to the cabin side. It worked out well, and was much lighter than the plywood cabin top it replaced. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Alex Bar Date: 2013/10/2Subject: Re: helloTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com So if I understand there is no point in choosing steel or alluminium thinking about strenght and safety of your yacht. They are bought the same, for building origami method too. It might be important choose one instead of the other thinking about future maintenance and problems. Does it make sense to build the shall of a boat made of steel (more welding resistance, less risks of galvanic problems, cheaper) and side decks plus cabin made of alluminium (lighter for better sailing performance, free future maintenance)? Alex | 30514|30514|2013-10-12 07:39:13|shaneduncan206@yahoo.com|Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello|I went for any ally cabin top and steel hull for my BS 31,had a lot of advice from the local lobster boat designers here in Western Australia, been sailing her for 3 years now , she's going well, happy to share my experiences, and CAD drawings re ally cabin topsent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset----- Reply message -----From: "Alex Bar" To: Subject: [origamiboats] RE: HelloDate: Sat, Oct 12, 2013 3:09 PMOk Matt thanks, so thinking about an avarage and normal way of sailing, Imean not extreme (no cape horniers, no ice breakers...) the solution couldbe alluminium if you have money, steel if you are poor and self builder.For better garanties a performances an alluminium deck or cabin top couldbe the compromise. What I can understand is that both alluminium and steelare great materials compare to nowdays fiberglass yacht production.Alex2013/10/10 Matt Malone > **>>>> Hey Alex,>> Well, it is complicated.  Lets take an easier example that has been> discussed here before, and is of interest to the group.>> Masts need certain overall properties, measured on an assembled> structure.   They need to have a certain resistance to overall bending.> Sure the standing rigging is there to help for the vast majority of masts.> Masts also need column bucking strength.  If you take a yardstick, stand it> up on the floor and press down on the top, at some point it will bow out to> the side like a bow from a bow and arrow.   These are over all> properties.>> There are masts made of steel, masts made of aluminium and masts made of> wood.   For modestly designed masts, each of these masts might be made with> the same over all properties.  (clearly a high-performance mast might be> beyond the capabilities of some materials)  Their other properties will all> be different.  They will weigh different amounts.  The wall of the steel> mast will be thin compared to the aluminium, whereas the wood mast might be> either much thicker (made of laminated sections) or a completely solid> tree.>> Now lets ask a question outside the normal use of a mast.   I am going to> imagine we are in bad weather and the boom has broken free and is banging> around.   Which mast is better ?  Though the wood one is heavier and worse> in most every other way, funny enough, it is probably the best in this> test.   It is because it is probably solid, and there is no such thing as> putting a dent in it, like there would be with a steel pipe or thicker> aluminium pipe.  Once there is a dent, pipes lose their column buckling> strength.  Try crushing pop cans -- intentionally dent some on the side,> then try to crush them -- easier right ?>> If the over all properties are chosen to be the same, the thickness of the> aluminium pipe would make the aluminium mast fair slightly better than the> steel one.   The steel one would be the easiest to put a dent in.>> It is because you are asking a secondary question to the design of a hull.>   Lots of production fibreglass boats, ask if they are designed to touch a> rock, the answer is no.   Using steel orgami provides more rock resistance> than fibreglass.  No one ever promised rock-proof, though Brent will no> doubt tell you many reassuring anecdotes.   If you want to design a hull to> be beached on rocks or be an ice breaker, you make everything thicker, and,> why not use steel to get its superior material properties ?>> I was merely observing that for the same over all properties, an aluminium> hull is thicker and dent resistance rises faster with thickness than do> over all properties.>> That said, a solid fibreglass boat, that has no core material, that is> inches of solid fibreglass, will be badly abraided on rocks, but, its> thickness will give it a lot of initial resistance to being punctured on> rocks.  Boats like this were made a long time ago, and, are still made at> great expense by some builders.   Orgami offers the opportunity for> home-built, new, inexpensive boats, that gives more rock resistance than> inexpensive cored fibreglass production boats.   It is a niche.>> The question you ask is a detail at in one corner of the niche about a> secondary benefit of orgami.   If it really is a big concern for you, solve> it with direct design, not secondary benefits.>> Matt>>>>>>> ------------------------------> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> From: alebarale33@...> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:30:52 +0200> Subject: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Hello>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------> From: *Alex Bar* > Date: 2013/10/7> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>>> So, the den't stiffness is a kind of strenght resistance that nothing has> to do with sheet properties. Just a matter of thickness. Is that wright?> Have I correctly understood?>>> Alex>>> 2013/10/6 Matt Malone >> **>>> Alex,>> Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material.> Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of it> in a structure, thicker sheets.   But the dent stiffness goes by the> thickness cubed.  So the less strong material that is thicker to have the> same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness.   So that says aluminium> is better.  But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot harder to weld.>> The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built into> the inside.  The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand .   It> makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, cut, weld,> repeat.   A pro wants to weld weld weld.   Yes tack a lot, but, it seems> the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big assemblies ready for> them.>> As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel.>> Matt>> ------------------------------> From: alebarale33@...> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:57:25 +0200> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello>>>> Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has> more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far> away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium)>> and>> considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the> origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?>> Thanks> Alex>>> 2013/9/30 >> **>>> There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel .> Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see> them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems> above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and> take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru> here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere.> Zero corrosion.>   In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime,> eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find> effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from> electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get> severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the> back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in> Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of> the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light> sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium>  Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far> trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an> aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the> strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% .>  Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub> against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far> better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier> load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing> light air performance.> With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping>>> ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:>> Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami> boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of> alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami> boats are made in steel.> Thanks> Alex>>>>>>>>>> | 30515|30504|2013-10-12 12:26:07|wild_explorer|Material Stiffness (was Re: Hello)|Matt, do you have information usefull to find/compare stiffness of different materials compare to base material? As I understand, sample's size should be the same for different materials. Let say we need to find stiffness of 3/16 steel plate, and find what thickness need to be a plate/sheet of aluminum and plywood which will have the same stiffness as 3/16 steel plate. It is easy to compare relative stiffness of the same material for different thickness, but it would be interesting to have a way to compare different materials to a given base material.| 30516|30504|2013-10-12 17:33:45|M.J. Malone|Re: Material Stiffness (was Re: Hello)| Wild it depends entirely on your shape, accurate to dimensions much smaller than the extent of the sheet.   Further it takes advanced computer tools to perform the calculations once the shape is defined.  Further, it all depends on what sort of deflections and loading we are talking about.  The crash of a wave that might make the hull ring like a bell might only cause deflections of a fraction of the sheet thickness locally, a fraction of the stiffener thickness more globally.   This is the scale of deflection these tools hand OK to well. Hitting a rock is an entirely different thing.   I don't know if you ever saw the little pop-disks kids toys.  The are slightly domed.  Press on the middle and they snap loudly to the cup shape.  Flip them over and snap them back.  The force needed to cause a particular deflection follows a negative slope with respect to deflection, in fact at the point it snaps, the force goes from zero to negative, the surface pulls away from your finger, and accelerates. Some boats exhibit an undesireable behaviour called oil-canning which is closely related to the pop-disk.  In a sea, the hull pops in and out.  The sound and impression of imminent structural collapse can be quite convincing.  As far as I know, all shells, boat hulls included, given enough force in the right direction, will oil-can.  The boats that "do not oil-can" do so at loads higher than one normally sees, so, it is not observed. So, long story short Wild, there is no such relationship in the general case, and providing a relationship in a particular case without providing bounds on the deflections I believe is also prone to error. As an aside, in another forum, a designer said Brent had a wrong relationship in his book and I believe he said what the correct relationship was.   For the reasons I gave above, I do not think anyone should give any relationship involving thickness and present it as a rule. The dent stiffness I am referring to is flat plate stiffness.  If the curve of a plate is small over the span of the loading, locally, it will behave like a plate.  This is a sort of worst case thing.  For instance, turn a bra cup (C+) inside out and then watch how you did it.  Point load, dent with reverse curvature, push further, the dent grows until it covers the whole shape and the cup is now inside out.  Some shapes will not reverse smoothly, they form stress concentration crease lines.  Metal likes to tear on crease lines.   I am confident that aluminium is a lot stronger than me, but,  once I get a buckle to become a crease, I can tear an aluminium can in half with little force. All of these behaviours can be found in hull shells and they all have different dependencies on thickness. I gave you the long answer Wild because you have asked a similar question before, and are still looking for THE answer.  There is not one answer.  It is complicated. Matt wild_explorer wrote:   Matt, do you have information usefull to find/compare stiffness of different materials compare to base material? As I understand, sample's size should be the same for different materials. Let say we need to find stiffness of 3/16 steel plate, and find what thickness need to be a plate/sheet of aluminum and plywood which will have the same stiffness as 3/16 steel plate. It is easy to compare relative stiffness of the same material for different thickness, but it would be interesting to have a way to compare different materials to a given base material. | 30517|30514|2013-10-12 19:20:00|brentswain38|Re: Hello|The steel  is a fraction the cost of enough fibreglass materials for a similar sized boat.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:I went for any ally cabin top and steel hull for my BS 31,had a lot of advice from the local lobster boat designers here in Western Australia, been sailing her for 3 years now , she's going well, happy to share my experiences, and CAD drawings re ally cabin topsent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset----- Reply message -----From: "Alex Bar" To: Subject: [origamiboats] RE: HelloDate: Sat, Oct 12, 2013 3:09 PMOk Matt thanks, so thinking about an avarage and normal way of sailing, Imean not extreme (no cape horniers, no ice breakers...) the solution couldbe alluminium if you have money, steel if you are poor and self builder.For better garanties a performances an alluminium deck or cabin top couldbe the compromise. What I can understand is that both alluminium and steelare great materials compare to nowdays fiberglass yacht production.Alex2013/10/10 Matt Malone > **>>>> Hey Alex,>> Well, it is complicated.  Lets take an easier example that has been> discussed here before, and is of interest to the group.>> Masts need certain overall properties, measured on an assembled> structure.   They need to have a certain resistance to overall bending.> Sure the standing rigging is there to help for the vast majority of masts.> Masts also need column bucking strength.  If you take a yardstick, stand it> up on the floor and press down on the top, at some point it will bow out to> the side like a bow from a bow and arrow.   These are over all> properties.>> There are masts made of steel, masts made of aluminium and masts made of> wood.   For modestly designed masts, each of these masts might be made with> the same over all properties.  (clearly a high-performance mast might be> beyond the capabilities of some materials)  Their other properties will all> be different.  They will weigh different amounts.  The wall of the steel> mast will be thin compared to the aluminium, whereas the wood mast might be> either much thicker (made of laminated sections) or a completely solid> tree.>> Now lets ask a question outside the normal use of a mast.   I am going to> imagine we are in bad weather and the boom has broken free and is banging> around.   Which mast is better ?  Though the wood one is heavier and worse> in most every other way, funny enough, it is probably the best in this> test.   It is because it is probably solid, and there is no such thing as> putting a dent in it, like there would be with a steel pipe or thicker> aluminium pipe.  Once there is a dent, pipes lose their column buckling> strength.  Try crushing pop cans -- intentionally dent some on the side,> then try to crush them -- easier right ?>> If the over all properties are chosen to be the same, the thickness of the> aluminium pipe would make the aluminium mast fair slightly better than the> steel one.   The steel one would be the easiest to put a dent in.>> It is because you are asking a secondary question to the design of a hull.>   Lots of production fibreglass boats, ask if they are designed to touch a> rock, the answer is no.   Using steel orgami provides more rock resistance> than fibreglass.  No one ever promised rock-proof, though Brent will no> doubt tell you many reassuring anecdotes.   If you want to design a hull to> be beached on rocks or be an ice breaker, you make everything thicker, and,> why not use steel to get its superior material properties ?>> I was merely observing that for the same over all properties, an aluminium> hull is thicker and dent resistance rises faster with thickness than do> over all properties.>> That said, a solid fibreglass boat, that has no core material, that is> inches of solid fibreglass, will be badly abraided on rocks, but, its> thickness will give it a lot of initial resistance to being punctured on> rocks.  Boats like this were made a long time ago, and, are still made at> great expense by some builders.   Orgami offers the opportunity for> home-built, new, inexpensive boats, that gives more rock resistance than> inexpensive cored fibreglass production boats.   It is a niche.>> The question you ask is a detail at in one corner of the niche about a> secondary benefit of orgami.   If it really is a big concern for you, solve> it with direct design, not secondary benefits.>> Matt>>>>>>> ------------------------------> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> From: alebarale33@...> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:30:52 +0200> Subject: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Hello>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------> From: *Alex Bar* > Date: 2013/10/7> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>>> So, the den't stiffness is a kind of strenght resistance that nothing has> to do with sheet properties. Just a matter of thickness. Is that wright?> Have I correctly understood?>>> Alex>>> 2013/10/6 Matt Malone >> **>>> Alex,>> Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material.> Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of it> in a structure, thicker sheets.   But the dent stiffness goes by the> thickness cubed.  So the less strong material that is thicker to have the> same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness.   So that says aluminium> is better.  But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot harder to weld.>> The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built into> the inside.  The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand .   It> makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, cut, weld,> repeat.   A pro wants to weld weld weld.   Yes tack a lot, but, it seems> the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big assemblies ready for> them.>> As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel.>> Matt>> ------------------------------> From: alebarale33@...> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:57:25 +0200> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello>>>> Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has> more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far> away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium)>> and>> considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the> origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals?>> Thanks> Alex>>> 2013/9/30 >> **>>> There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel .> Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see> them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems> above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and> take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru> here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere.> Zero corrosion.>   In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime,> eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find> effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from> electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get> severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the> back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in> Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of> the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light> sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium>  Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far> trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an> aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the> strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% .>  Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub> against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far> better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier> load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing> light air performance.> With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping>>> ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:>> Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami> boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of> alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami> boats are made in steel.> Thanks> Alex>>>>>>>>>> | 30518|30518|2013-10-12 19:21:25|Alex Bar|Sorry|Sorry, I always have problem in sending mail to the group.Alex| 30519|30504|2013-10-12 19:56:18|wild_explorer|Material Stiffness (was Re: Hello)|Matt, I understand the complexity of the question (and thank you for finding a time for a long answer). I meant more simple case (for flat sheet/strip - no shape forming involved). I will try to clarify my question: Let say, we have several materials (strip 6 x 48 inches): - steel 3/16" (base material) - aluminum - plywood - average quality fiberglass sheet Strip is laying horizontally and is supported at the ends, load is located at the center. What thickness need to be aluminum, plywood, fiberglass and what amount of load need to be applied for different materials, which will give the same deflection (let say 2" from horizontal) as 3/16" steel? - Assuming complete recovery of the strip after removing the load (if possible). - Assuming that deflection of the strip from different materials under its own weight is negligible. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > Wild it depends entirely on your shape, accurate to dimensions much smaller than the extent of the sheet. Further it takes advanced computer tools to perform the calculations once the shape is defined. Further, it all depends on what sort of deflections and >loading we are talking about. ... skipped.... > I gave you the long answer Wild because you have asked a similar question before, and are still looking for THE answer. There is not one answer. It is complicated. > > Matt | 30520|30504|2013-10-12 20:16:56|M.J. Malone|Re: Material Stiffness (was Re: Hello)| That can be calculated from beam theory. EI = constant gives the same deflection for the same load. I= b d ^3. / 12 The beam width b is constant, so E d^3 = constant Take steel, E=200GPa, d=0.008m. (8mm), calculate the constant, look up numbers for E for any material you like... google "Young's Modulus Engineering toolbox", calculate d: D = cube root (constant/E) I never selected the load or deflection.  This will give the relative thicknesses for small loads and deflections, where the surface stress does not exceed the yield strength. This is just an experiment though, applying it to a boat would depend on the details of how it was done. Matt wild_explorer wrote:   Matt, I understand the complexity of the question (and thank you for finding a time for a long answer). I meant more simple case (for flat sheet/strip - no shape forming involved). I will try to clarify my question: Let say, we have several materials (strip 6 x 48 inches): - steel 3/16" (base material) - aluminum - plywood - average quality fiberglass sheet Strip is laying horizontally and is supported at the ends, load is located at the center. What thickness need to be aluminum, plywood, fiberglass and what amount of load need to be applied for different materials, which will give the same deflection (let say 2" from horizontal) as 3/16" steel? - Assuming complete recovery of the strip after removing the load (if possible). - Assuming that deflection of the strip from different materials under its own weight is negligible. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > Wild it depends entirely on your shape, accurate to dimensions much smaller than the extent of the sheet. Further it takes advanced computer tools to perform the calculations once the shape is defined. Further, it all depends on what sort of deflections and >loading we are talking about. ... skipped.... > I gave you the long answer Wild because you have asked a similar question before, and are still looking for THE answer. There is not one answer. It is complicated. > > Matt | 30521|30504|2013-10-13 03:00:23|wild_explorer|Material Stiffness (was Re: Hello)|Thanks Matt! Just to confirm... The numbers I found (should be close enough for estimation purpose): Steel - E=200 GPa Aluminum - E=69 GPa Fiberglass - E=17 GPa Wood/Plywood - E=10 GPa I need some clarification where d=0.008m (8mm) came from? Steel with thickness 3/16" is about 4.76mm... 4.76^3/12=8.98 which is about 9mm. If we take only d (eliminating division on 12 in addition to b), it would be 4.76. Or did you mean something else referring to 8mm? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > That can be calculated from beam theory. > > EI = constant gives the same deflection for the same load. > > I= b d ^3. / 12 > > The beam width b is constant, so > > E d^3 = constant > > Take steel, E=200GPa, d=0.008m. (8mm), calculate the constant, look up numbers for E for any material you like... google "Young's Modulus Engineering toolbox", calculate d: > > D = cube root (constant/E) > > I never selected the load or deflection. This will give the relative thicknesses for small loads and deflections, where the surface stress does not exceed the yield strength. > > This is just an experiment though, applying it to a boat would depend on the details of how it was done. > > Matt > | 30522|30504|2013-10-13 09:15:12|M.J. Malone|Re: Material Stiffness (was Re: Hello)| I chose 8mm to make your flat plate stiffer because 6 inches wide, 48 inches long in thinner material is a little floppy. Also, you must work in meters so it is 0.00476 meters so that it works with Pa (N/m^2), and you must expand out the giga (G) so for steel it is: Constant = 200,000,000,000 * 0.00476 ^ 3 I do not have access to the numbers right now to check your E values. Matt wild_explorer wrote:   Thanks Matt! Just to confirm... The numbers I found (should be close enough for estimation purpose): Steel - E=200 GPa Aluminum - E=69 GPa Fiberglass - E=17 GPa Wood/Plywood - E=10 GPa I need some clarification where d=0.008m (8mm) came from? Steel with thickness 3/16" is about 4.76mm... 4.76^3/12=8.98 which is about 9mm. If we take only d (eliminating division on 12 in addition to b), it would be 4.76. Or did you mean something else referring to 8mm? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > That can be calculated from beam theory. > > EI = constant gives the same deflection for the same load. > > I= b d ^3. / 12 > > The beam width b is constant, so > > E d^3 = constant > > Take steel, E=200GPa, d=0.008m. (8mm), calculate the constant, look up numbers for E for any material you like... google "Young's Modulus Engineering toolbox", calculate d: > > D = cube root (constant/E) > > I never selected the load or deflection. This will give the relative thicknesses for small loads and deflections, where the surface stress does not exceed the yield strength. > > This is just an experiment though, applying it to a boat would depend on the details of how it was done. > > Matt > | 30523|30504|2013-10-13 15:51:00|wild_explorer|Material Stiffness (was Re: Hello)|Thanks for the clarification Matt! I was asking, because you can feel the difference in stiffness simply holding long 11Ga (3.04mm) and 10Ga (3.42mm) steel strips. OK... Let assume that E values for materials are correct. Now we can calculate what thickness of the material we need to get the same stiffness as base material (3/16"=4.76mm steel) Constant (for 4.76mm steel)= (200 * 10^9) * (0.00476^3) = 21570 Find related thickness of related material in mm (use E for material you want to check): d = (cube_root 21570/E) * 1000 Steel: (cube_root (21570/(200*10^9))* 1000 = 4.76 mm Aluminum: 6.79 mm Fiberglass: 10.83 mm Plywood: 12.92 mm I hope, I calculated it correctly... At least it gives me some idea what thickness need to be a material which will have similar stiffness as base material I want to compare. IT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS BETTER for YOUR boat. P.S. Please note that this calculations are for a FLAT plate/sheet. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > I chose 8mm to make your flat plate stiffer because 6 inches wide, 48 inches long in thinner material is a little floppy. Also, you must work in meters so it is 0.00476 meters so that it works with Pa (N/m^2), and you must expand out the giga (G) so for steel it is: > > Constant = 200,000,000,000 * 0.00476 ^ 3 > > I do not have access to the numbers right now to check your E values. > > Matt > > > wild_explorer wrote: > > Thanks Matt! > > Just to confirm... The numbers I found (should be close enough for estimation purpose): > > Steel - E=200 GPa > Aluminum - E=69 GPa > Fiberglass - E=17 GPa > Wood/Plywood - E=10 GPa > > I need some clarification where d=0.008m (8mm) came from? > > Steel with thickness 3/16" is about 4.76mm... 4.76^3/12=8.98 which is about 9mm. If we take only d (eliminating division on 12 in addition to b), it would be 4.76. Or did you mean something else referring to 8mm? > | 30524|30504|2013-10-15 13:39:52|Matt Malone|Re: Material Stiffness (was Re: Hello)| OK, so what we have calculated is for a floppy noodle flat plate, loaded in the thin direction, and Wild has given the relative thicknesses of different materials to get the same amount of floppiness to that 6" wide, 48" long beam.   A noodle... no one would ever use material in this geometry, certainly not in a boat.   Look at the plywood, 12.92mm, is a little thinner than 5/8" plywood.   Compare that to 3/16" steel...   One would not have to rub a pointy rock for very long to have a gash in a 5/8" plywood boat. But if we made the boat the same weight, the plywood would be about 7 times as thick as the steel about 33mm or 1-5/16".   The E d^3 of that is around 360,000, or about 17 times the steel.    So what does that mean?  Rubbing on pointy rocks is still not a good thing, it is wood after all, but a bump, a push loading?  Lets go back to the 6" x 48" strip.  Would the steel get bent first or would the plywood begin to splinter first ?  Steel is still about 40 times stronger right ?   Surely it is the hands-down winner over (gasp) wood ?    surface stress = M (d/2) / I   M is the moment, constant when comparing steel and plywood in the same loading.   Note the thickness is 7 times bigger for wood.    I = bd^3 / 12, only the d's are different, by a factor of 7There is a factor of 7 on the top, and 7^3 on the bottom, so the plywood would have 1/49 the surface stress of the steel.   So, the steel is about 40/49 compared to plywood when the same weight is used in a 6" x48" beam.  Wait, 40/49 means steel and plywood are about the same weight for weight, and really the plywood is actually a bit better ?   But, in one case, the plywood splinters, and in the other the steel bends...   When it bends steel absorbs energy, but does not break until a load of about  64 times the wood, so, that is 64/49 or about 30% better for steel on a steady pushed load on the 6" by 48" beam.   How many thought that, weight for weight, steel would only be 30% better ?   But then we could compare the total energy storage to see if steel is "absorbing more of a beating"  before breaking.  A boat analogy would be, a wave throws a certain mass of boat beam-wise up against a big round rock at a certain speed... speed and mass determines an energy the hull must absorb.   For brittle materials the energy is approximately:Energy Density = 1/2 Strength^2 / EI do not have plywood data I like at hand so I am going to fibreglass now.  For fibreglass laminates that is about:Energy Density = 1/2 * 1.5GPa^2 / 17 GPa = 66 MJ / m^3Yes, well-laid up fibreglass can easily have a strength of 1.5 GPa, whereas "regular" structural steels are about 0.4 GPa breaking strength.  Yes, there are super alloys that are better.    Plastic materials (which means it gets bent and stretches) like steel it is more complicated.  The energy density is the area under this graph (A36 for example):http://www.jmrt.com.br/imatges/363/363v01n01/grande/363v01n01-90195168fig6.jpgWhich I estimate by eye to be about 350MPa * 33% = 115.5 MJ / m^3(FYI, the energy chemical in gasoline is about 31,820 MJ/m^3.)So, steel is better right ?   Well, no, look at the first bit, before the stretch, before the wiggles, that initial slope is the elastic portion.  I see that as 300MPa * 3% = 9 MJ / m^3So which is it ?   Well, the fibreglass will bend and spring back up to an impact energy of 66 MJ / m^3.   Steel will bend and spring back up to an impact energy of 9 MJ / m^3, and will absorb the beating, getting bent without breaking up to 115.5 MJ / m^3.But this is comparing steel and fibreglass on an equal volume basis... lets try an equal mass basis.  Fibreglass has a density of about 2, steel about 7.8.  So, lets use 7.8/2 or 3.9 times the volume of fibreglass as steel, so it comes to the same weight. So fibreglass is 66*3.9 = 257.4 MJ / m^3 without taking a permanent bend, vs. 9 for steel to not take a permanent bend, and 115.5 MJ / m^3 if it gets bent up badly.   So, if you find a boat of solid woven cloth fibreglass, with the same weight of fibreglass in the hull as the steel boat has steel (equal ballast weight, equal displacement is a clue), and you prevent a pointy rock from rubbing in the same spot repeatedly, it will take quite a beating and spring back to its original shape, whereas the steel boat will look like it was in a demolition derby.   Ever wonder why commercial lifeboats are made of fibreglass and not steel ?   Lets getting back to the 6" by 48" beam supported top and bottom on rollers, and now lets hit from the side.  The rollers are so that, when it gets hit from the side and bends, it can bow out and get shorter without added stretch by being nailed top and bottom.   Lets use steel of 3/16" thick, and fibreglass (x3.9 thicker) = 18.57mm thick.  Note the fibreglass is already stiffer as a flat beam than the steel, but not as stiff (more stretchy) in pull as the steel.   The fibreglass is much stronger than the steel both as a beam and as a pull-tab.   Lets take the loading as a round-nosed battering ram of 10,000 kg moving at a speed.  Note that the inertial mass of a boat in the water is about twice its displacement because of the behaviour of the water around the boat when it tries to change speed.  I chose 10 tonnes because that might be compared 5 tonne boat being carried in a wave, or a 5 tonne boat being hit while stationary.   A round-nose battering ram was chosen because a boat might be thrown into a piling or the end of a quay, or be T-boned by a large boat with a rounded bow.     Take 300MPa as the yield strength of the steel -- the point where the beam would come away bent -- Energy = 1/3 * 9 MJ/m^3 * 6" * 48 " * 3/16"  =  2,654.7 JoulesThe 1/3 factor comes from integrating the shape of the strain distribution in a bent beam and is related to the 1/3 factor in the equation for the volume of a pyramid.  Of course all of the numbers are converted to the same units for computation.    The speed of the ram for this energy is 2.28 m/s or about 4.5 mph -- a slow cruise speed.  So, if you have a unsupported 3/16" beam bent into the shape of a bow pulpit, and you ram something solid expect it may spring back if you were going slowly.     For the fibreglass it is: Energy = 1/3 *  66 * 6" * 48" * 18.57mm = 75,900 Joules  The ram would have to be going 12.2 m/s or about 27.5 mph to rip the fibreglass beam -- anything less than that, and it would just bounce off as the fibreglass sprung back into shape.  Any wonder that some rear springs in trucks are made of fibreglass:  http://www.hypercoils.com/leaf-springs.htmlSo, if you put a suitably designed fibreglass beam-spring athwart-ship under the front deck, with a retractable bowsprit mounted to it, and you rammed the end of the bowsprit into a quay, the entire boat is likely to bounce back for any speed you are likely to be going in a sailboat.  That is cool.     Going back to steel, and considering pushing it to the limit:  In this particular case I know the plasticity of structural steel will make it bend around the head of the ram, and the entire length of the strip and completely through the thickness will stretch to near breaking before any part breaks, so 1/3 becomes 3/3 for this case:Energy = 3/3 * 115.5 MJ/m^3  * 6" * 48 " * 3/16"  = 34,000 Joules   The ram would have to be going at about 8.2m/s or about 18.3 mph to rip the 3/16" thick steel beam.There are many many more ways to think about different materials, how to use them, in what shapes thickness and equalities (equal dimension, equal weight, equal structural property) and come up with different answers that make one look better than the other. That solid woven cloth fibreglass boat with a hull the same weight as a steel boat is very rare, and very expensive if purchased new.  Further without putting an awful lot more money into stuff that is not in the final boat, like moulds, and likely a building to build it in, it is not possible to build such a boat in your backyard.  Origami lets you build inexpensively in steel, with a lot less money invested in stuff not in the final boat.  Here is what we learned:    - Try not to hit anything on too solid of a foundation,  - Expect a steel boat to come away with a new shape if you do hit something solid,     - Causing a rip in steel is a lot harder than bending it,     - Don't disrespect a solidly constructed fibreglass boat.           Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: williswildest@...Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 19:50:59 +0000Subject: [origamiboats] Material Stiffness (was Re: Hello)   Thanks for the clarification Matt! I was asking, because you can feel the difference in stiffness simply holding long 11Ga (3.04mm) and 10Ga (3.42mm) steel strips. OK... Let assume that E values for materials are correct. Now we can calculate what thickness of the material we need to get the same stiffness as base material (3/16"=4.76mm steel) Constant (for 4.76mm steel)= (200 * 10^9) * (0.00476^3) = 21570 Find related thickness of related material in mm (use E for material you want to check): d = (cube_root 21570/E) * 1000 Steel: (cube_root (21570/(200*10^9))* 1000 = 4.76 mm Aluminum: 6.79 mm Fiberglass: 10.83 mm Plywood: 12.92 mm I hope, I calculated it correctly... At least it gives me some idea what thickness need to be a material which will have similar stiffness as base material I want to compare. IT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS BETTER for YOUR boat. P.S. Please note that this calculations are for a FLAT plate/sheet. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > I chose 8mm to make your flat plate stiffer because 6 inches wide, 48 inches long in thinner material is a little floppy. Also, you must work in meters so it is 0.00476 meters so that it works with Pa (N/m^2), and you must expand out the giga (G) so for steel it is: > > Constant = 200,000,000,000 * 0.00476 ^ 3 > > I do not have access to the numbers right now to check your E values. > > Matt > > > wild_explorer wrote: > > Thanks Matt! > > Just to confirm... The numbers I found (should be close enough for estimation purpose): > > Steel - E=200 GPa > Aluminum - E=69 GPa > Fiberglass - E=17 GPa > Wood/Plywood - E=10 GPa > > I need some clarification where d=0.008m (8mm) came from? > > Steel with thickness 3/16" is about 4.76mm... 4.76^3/12=8.98 which is about 9mm. If we take only d (eliminating division on 12 in addition to b), it would be 4.76. Or did you mean something else referring to 8mm? > woven cloth fibreglass | 30525|30525|2013-10-15 20:37:33|jhlean|Sheet size for BS 31|What is the best Aluminium sheet size for the BS31 (hull only)?  I'm thinking four of 6' X 20' sheets?| 30526|30514|2013-10-21 12:17:08|Alex Bar|Re: Hello|Thanks Shane, I'll remember that if I start the construction.Alex2013/10/12 shaneduncan206@...   I went for any ally cabin top and steel hull for my BS 31,had a lot of advice from the local lobster boat designers here in Western Australia, been sailing her for 3 years now , she's going well, happy to share my experiences, and CAD drawings re ally cabin top sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset----- Reply message -----From: "Alex Bar" To: Subject: [origamiboats] RE: HelloDate: Sat, Oct 12, 2013 3:09 PMOk Matt thanks, so thinking about an avarage and normal way of sailing, Imean not extreme (no cape horniers, no ice breakers...) the solution could be alluminium if you have money, steel if you are poor and self builder.For better garanties a performances an alluminium deck or cabin top couldbe the compromise. What I can understand is that both alluminium and steel are great materials compare to nowdays fiberglass yacht production.Alex2013/10/10 Matt Malone > **>>>> Hey Alex,>> Well, it is complicated.  Lets take an easier example that has been> discussed here before, and is of interest to the group.>> Masts need certain overall properties, measured on an assembled > structure.   They need to have a certain resistance to overall bending.> Sure the standing rigging is there to help for the vast majority of masts.> Masts also need column bucking strength.  If you take a yardstick, stand it > up on the floor and press down on the top, at some point it will bow out to> the side like a bow from a bow and arrow.   These are over all> properties.>> There are masts made of steel, masts made of aluminium and masts made of > wood.   For modestly designed masts, each of these masts might be made with> the same over all properties.  (clearly a high-performance mast might be> beyond the capabilities of some materials)  Their other properties will all > be different.  They will weigh different amounts.  The wall of the steel> mast will be thin compared to the aluminium, whereas the wood mast might be> either much thicker (made of laminated sections) or a completely solid > tree.>> Now lets ask a question outside the normal use of a mast.   I am going to> imagine we are in bad weather and the boom has broken free and is banging> around.   Which mast is better ?  Though the wood one is heavier and worse > in most every other way, funny enough, it is probably the best in this> test.   It is because it is probably solid, and there is no such thing as> putting a dent in it, like there would be with a steel pipe or thicker > aluminium pipe.  Once there is a dent, pipes lose their column buckling> strength.  Try crushing pop cans -- intentionally dent some on the side,> then try to crush them -- easier right ?>> If the over all properties are chosen to be the same, the thickness of the > aluminium pipe would make the aluminium mast fair slightly better than the> steel one.   The steel one would be the easiest to put a dent in.>> It is because you are asking a secondary question to the design of a hull. >   Lots of production fibreglass boats, ask if they are designed to touch a> rock, the answer is no.   Using steel orgami provides more rock resistance> than fibreglass.  No one ever promised rock-proof, though Brent will no > doubt tell you many reassuring anecdotes.   If you want to design a hull to> be beached on rocks or be an ice breaker, you make everything thicker, and,> why not use steel to get its superior material properties ? >> I was merely observing that for the same over all properties, an aluminium> hull is thicker and dent resistance rises faster with thickness than do> over all properties.>> That said, a solid fibreglass boat, that has no core material, that is > inches of solid fibreglass, will be badly abraided on rocks, but, its> thickness will give it a lot of initial resistance to being punctured on> rocks.  Boats like this were made a long time ago, and, are still made at > great expense by some builders.   Orgami offers the opportunity for> home-built, new, inexpensive boats, that gives more rock resistance than> inexpensive cored fibreglass production boats.   It is a niche. >> The question you ask is a detail at in one corner of the niche about a> secondary benefit of orgami.   If it really is a big concern for you, solve> it with direct design, not secondary benefits. >> Matt>>>>>>> ------------------------------> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> From: alebarale33@... > Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:30:52 +0200> Subject: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Hello>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------> From: *Alex Bar* > Date: 2013/10/7> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>>> So, the den't stiffness is a kind of strenght resistance that nothing has > to do with sheet properties. Just a matter of thickness. Is that wright?> Have I correctly understood?>>> Alex>>> 2013/10/6 Matt Malone >> **>>> Alex,>> Collision resistance has more to do with the way you use a material.> Because aluminium is less strong as a material, you use more volume of it> in a structure, thicker sheets.   But the dent stiffness goes by the > thickness cubed.  So the less strong material that is thicker to have the> same sheet properties has a higher dent stiffness.   So that says aluminium> is better.  But it is a lot more expensive, and a lot harder to weld. >> The orgami method means the skin is done first, then framing is built into> the inside.  The inside dimensions are hard to define beforehand .   It> makes no difference at all for an individual: they measure, cut, weld, > repeat.   A pro wants to weld weld weld.   Yes tack a lot, but, it seems> the pro will be coming back a few times as you get big assemblies ready for> them.>> As attractive as aluminium is, I would choose steel. >> Matt>> ------------------------------> From: alebarale33@...> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:57:25 +0200> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Hello>>>> Thanks, very interesting. But comparing alluminium and steel which one has> more collision resistance let say right in the middle of a sheet and far > away from a weld? (let say 4 mm steel compare to 6mm alluminium)>> and>> considering the high tensions when pulling the sheets together with the> origami method, is there any rising problem comparing the two metals? >> Thanks> Alex>>> 2013/9/30 >> **>>> There are pros and cons to both. Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel . > Steel  has more corrosion problems above the waterline, where you can see> them and get at them easily  Aluminium has very few corrosion problems> above the waterline. but it can happen rapidly below the   waterline , and > take you by surprise. A 35 year old aluminium catamaran just sailed thru> here. She  has never had a drop of paint on the outside of her anywhere.> Zero corrosion.>   In our 17 ft tidal range,  she is easy to dry out and scrape anytime, > eliminating the need for antifouling. Otherwise it can be  hard to find> effective antifouling for aluminium boats which wont eat them from> electrolysis. In the tropics you can fry eggs on bare aluminium, and get > severe burns from touching it in the sun. I had to paint the inside of the> back of my aluminum dinghy white to prevent it  from burning my feet in> Tonga.  However you can use cheap paint, as it  is not for protection of > the metal . A vinegar etch helps get the oxide of before painting. Light> sand blasting is the best way to get paint to stick to aluminium>  Aluminium gouges far more easily than steel . Welding aluminium is far > trickier than steel, and any wind or contaminants can easily screw up an> aluminium weld. Steel welding is far more forgiving, and has 100% the> strength of the metal around it, aluminium 60% .>  Bare aluminium can leave black marks on your clothing when you rub > against it. Aluminium being far lighter than steel, will give you far> better light air performance, and will allow you to carry a far heavier> load of personal effects without going too far below her lines and reducing > light air performance.> With aluminium, you  don't have to worry about paint chipping>>> ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> Hi, I'm new to this group. I'm thinking about building my own origami> boat. Is there any particoular reason why I should choose steel instead of> alluminium excluding economical reasons? It seems that most of origami > boats are made in steel.> Thanks> Alex>>>>>>>>>> | 30527|30527|2013-10-21 12:17:18|Alex Bar|Construction time|I think there are quite a lot of people here on this group owning a BS yacht.Does anybody know the average time spent in building the ruogh hull? I know it depend's on many items (tools,place,weather,ability...) but just to have an idea.It would be interesting to know the time splited in this way:1. cutting the sheets (hull,deck,cabin top,) 2. fixing longitudinals, pulling the two half, joining the two half plus transom3. deck fixing plus cabin top4. keel plus rudderNOT the time for detailing Alex| 30528|30504|2013-10-21 12:17:50|limereef|Re: Fwd: [origamiboats] RE: Hello| This is pretty interesting as I had joined this group with the idea of using origami techniques with plywood and covering with epoxy and glass (or kevlar if the endgame plays out well).I know most of you guys have a lot of experience with and regard for steel, and I respect that because I feel the same about wood.IMO it's not the material as much as the execution that makes a good boat, especially with a design that uses the material to it's best advantage.Thanks for the great discussion!Rob ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: OK, so what we have calculated is for a floppy noodle flat plate, loaded in the thin direction, and Wild has given the relative thicknesses of different materials to get the same amount of floppiness to that 6" wide, 48" long beam.   A noodle... no one would ever use material in this geometry, certainly not in a boat.   Look at the plywood, 12.92mm, is a little thinner than 5/8" plywood.   Compare that to 3/16" steel...   One would not have to rub a pointy rock for very long to have a gash in a 5/8" plywood boat. But if we made the boat the same weight, the plywood would be about 7 times as thick as the steel about 33mm or 1-5/16".   The E d^3 of that is around 360,000, or about 17 times the steel.    So what does that mean?  Rubbing on pointy rocks is still not a good thing, it is wood after all, but a bump, a push loading?  Lets go back to the 6" x 48" strip.  Would the steel get bent first or would the plywood begin to splinter first ?  Steel is still about 40 times stronger right ?   Surely it is the hands-down winner over (gasp) wood ?    surface stress = M (d/2) / I   M is the moment, constant when comparing steel and plywood in the same loading.   Note the thickness is 7 times bigger for wood.    I = bd^3 / 12, only the d's are different, by a factor of 7There is a factor of 7 on the top, and 7^3 on the bottom, so the plywood would have 1/49 the surface stress of the steel.   So, the steel is about 40/49 compared to plywood when the same weight is used in a 6" x48" beam.  Wait, 40/49 means steel and plywood are about the same weight for weight, and really the plywood is actually a bit better ?   But, in one case, the plywood splinters, and in the other the steel bends...   When it bends steel absorbs energy, but does not break until a load of about  64 times the wood, so, that is 64/49 or about 30% better for steel on a steady pushed load on the 6" by 48" beam.   How many thought that, weight for weight, steel would only be 30% better ?   But then we could compare the total energy storage to see if steel is "absorbing more of a beating"  before breaking.  A boat analogy would be, a wave throws a certain mass of boat beam-wise up against a big round rock at a certain speed... speed and mass determines an energy the hull must absorb.   For brittle materials the energy is approximately:Energy Density = 1/2 Strength^2 / EI do not have plywood data I like at hand so I am going to fibreglass now.  For fibreglass laminates that is about:Energy Density = 1/2 * 1.5GPa^2 / 17 GPa = 66 MJ / m^3Yes, well-laid up fibreglass can easily have a strength of 1.5 GPa, whereas "regular" structural steels are about 0.4 GPa breaking strength.  Yes, there are super alloys that are better.    Plastic materials (which means it gets bent and stretches) like steel it is more complicated.  The energy density is the area under this graph (A36 for example):http://www.jmrt.com.br/imatges/363/363v01n01/grande/363v01n01-90195168fig6.jpgWhich I estimate by eye to be about 350MPa * 33% = 115.5 MJ / m^3(FYI, the energy chemical in gasoline is about 31,820 MJ/m^3.)So, steel is better right ?   Well, no, look at the first bit, before the stretch, before the wiggles, that initial slope is the elastic portion.  I see that as 300MPa * 3% = 9 MJ / m^3So which is it ?   Well, the fibreglass will bend and spring back up to an impact energy of 66 MJ / m^3.   Steel will bend and spring back up to an impact energy of 9 MJ / m^3, and will absorb the beating, getting bent without breaking up to 115.5 MJ / m^3.But this is comparing steel and fibreglass on an equal volume basis... lets try an equal mass basis.  Fibreglass has a density of about 2, steel about 7.8.  So, lets use 7.8/2 or 3.9 times the volume of fibreglass as steel, so it comes to the same weight. So fibreglass is 66*3.9 = 257.4 MJ / m^3 without taking a permanent bend, vs. 9 for steel to not take a permanent bend, and 115.5 MJ / m^3 if it gets bent up badly.   So, if you find a boat of solid woven cloth fibreglass, with the same weight of fibreglass in the hull as the steel boat has steel (equal ballast weight, equal displacement is a clue), and you prevent a pointy rock from rubbing in the same spot repeatedly, it will take quite a beating and spring back to its original shape, whereas the steel boat will look like it was in a demolition derby.   Ever wonder why commercial lifeboats are made of fibreglass and not steel ?   Lets getting back to the 6" by 48" beam supported top and bottom on rollers, and now lets hit from the side.  The rollers are so that, when it gets hit from the side and bends, it can bow out and get shorter without added stretch by being nailed top and bottom.   Lets use steel of 3/16" thick, and fibreglass (x3.9 thicker) = 18.57mm thick.  Note the fibreglass is already stiffer as a flat beam than the steel, but not as stiff (more stretchy) in pull as the steel.   The fibreglass is much stronger than the steel both as a beam and as a pull-tab.   Lets take the loading as a round-nosed battering ram of 10,000 kg moving at a speed.  Note that the inertial mass of a boat in the water is about twice its displacement because of the behaviour of the water around the boat when it tries to change speed.  I chose 10 tonnes because that might be compared 5 tonne boat being carried in a wave, or a 5 tonne boat being hit while stationary.   A round-nose battering ram was chosen because a boat might be thrown into a piling or the end of a quay, or be T-boned by a large boat with a rounded bow.     Take 300MPa as the yield strength of the steel -- the point where the beam would come away bent -- Energy = 1/3 * 9 MJ/m^3 * 6" * 48 " * 3/16"  =  2,654.7 JoulesThe 1/3 factor comes from integrating the shape of the strain distribution in a bent beam and is related to the 1/3 factor in the equation for the volume of a pyramid.  Of course all of the numbers are converted to the same units for computation.    The speed of the ram for this energy is 2.28 m/s or about 4.5 mph -- a slow cruise speed.  So, if you have a unsupported 3/16" beam bent into the shape of a bow pulpit, and you ram something solid expect it may spring back if you were going slowly.     For the fibreglass it is: Energy = 1/3 *  66 * 6" * 48" * 18.57mm = 75,900 Joules  The ram would have to be going 12.2 m/s or about 27.5 mph to rip the fibreglass beam -- anything less than that, and it would just bounce off as the fibreglass sprung back into shape.  Any wonder that some rear springs in trucks are made of fibreglass:  http://www.hypercoils.com/leaf-springs.htmlSo, if you put a suitably designed fibreglass beam-spring athwart-ship under the front deck, with a retractable bowsprit mounted to it, and you rammed the end of the bowsprit into a quay, the entire boat is likely to bounce back for any speed you are likely to be going in a sailboat.  That is cool.     Going back to steel, and considering pushing it to the limit:  In this particular case I know the plasticity of structural steel will make it bend around the head of the ram, and the entire length of the strip and completely through the thickness will stretch to near breaking before any part breaks, so 1/3 becomes 3/3 for this case:Energy = 3/3 * 115.5 MJ/m^3  * 6" * 48 " * 3/16"  = 34,000 Joules   The ram would have to be going at about 8.2m/s or about 18.3 mph to rip the 3/16" thick steel beam.There are many many more ways to think about different materials, how to use them, in what shapes thickness and equalities (equal dimension, equal weight, equal structural property) and come up with different answers that make one look better than the other. That solid woven cloth fibreglass boat with a hull the same weight as a steel boat is very rare, and very expensive if purchased new.  Further without putting an awful lot more money into stuff that is not in the final boat, like moulds, and likely a building to build it in, it is not possible to build such a boat in your backyard.  Origami lets you build inexpensively in steel, with a lot less money invested in stuff not in the final boat.  Here is what we learned:    - Try not to hit anything on too solid of a foundation,  - Expect a steel boat to come away with a new shape if you do hit something solid,     - Causing a rip in steel is a lot harder than bending it,     - Don't disrespect a solidly constructed fibreglass boat.           Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: williswildest@...Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 19:50:59 +0000Subject: [origamiboats] Material Stiffness (was Re: Hello)   Thanks for the clarification Matt! I was asking, because you can feel the difference in stiffness simply holding long 11Ga (3.04mm) and 10Ga (3.42mm) steel strips. OK... Let assume that E values for materials are correct. Now we can calculate what thickness of the material we need to get the same stiffness as base material (3/16"=4.76mm steel) Constant (for 4.76mm steel)= (200 * 10^9) * (0.00476^3) = 21570 Find related thickness of related material in mm (use E for material you want to check): d = (cube_root 21570/E) * 1000 Steel: (cube_root (21570/(200*10^9))* 1000 = 4.76 mm Aluminum: 6.79 mm Fiberglass: 10.83 mm Plywood: 12.92 mm I hope, I calculated it correctly... At least it gives me some idea what thickness need to be a material which will have similar stiffness as base material I want to compare. IT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS BETTER for YOUR boat. P.S. Please note that this calculations are for a FLAT plate/sheet. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "M.J. Malone" wrote: > > I chose 8mm to make your flat plate stiffer because 6 inches wide, 48 inches long in thinner material is a little floppy. Also, you must work in meters so it is 0.00476 meters so that it works with Pa (N/m^2), and you must expand out the giga (G) so for steel it is: > > Constant = 200,000,000,000 * 0.00476 ^ 3 > > I do not have access to the numbers right now to check your E values. > > Matt > > > wild_explorer wrote: > > Thanks Matt! > > Just to confirm... The numbers I found (should be close enough for estimation purpose): > > Steel - E=200 GPa > Aluminum - E=69 GPa > Fiberglass - E=17 GPa > Wood/Plywood - E=10 GPa > > I need some clarification where d=0.008m (8mm) came from? > > Steel with thickness 3/16" is about 4.76mm... 4.76^3/12=8.98 which is about 9mm. If we take only d (eliminating division on 12 in addition to b), it would be 4.76. Or did you mean something else referring to 8mm? > woven cloth fibreglass | 30529|30527|2013-10-21 12:17:58|Alex Bar|Construction time|I think there are quite a lot of people here on this group owning a BS yacht.Does anybody know the average time spent in building the ruogh hull? I know it depend's on many items (tools,place,weather,ability...) but just to have an idea.It would be interesting to know the time splited in this way:1. cutting the sheets (hull,deck,cabin top,) 2. fixing longitudinals, pulling the two half, joining the two half plus transom3. deck fixing plus cabin top4. keel plus rudderNOT the time for detailing Alex| 30530|30527|2013-10-21 12:18:16|Alex Bar|Construction time|I think there are quite a lot of people here on this group owning a BS yacht.Does anybody know the average time spent in building the ruogh hull? I know it depend's on many items (tools,place,weather,ability...) but just to have an idea.It would be interesting to know the time splited in this way:1. cutting the sheets (hull,deck,cabin top,) 2. fixing longitudinals, pulling the two half, joining the two half plus transom3. deck fixing plus cabin top4. keel plus rudderNOT the time for detailing Alex| 30531|30527|2013-10-21 12:18:21|Alex Bar|Construction time|I think there are quite a lot of people here on this group owning a BS yacht.Does anybody know the average time spent in building the ruogh hull? I know it depend's on many items (tools,place,weather,ability...) but just to have an idea.It would be interesting to know the time splited in this way:1. cutting the sheets (hull,deck,cabin top,) 2. fixing longitudinals, pulling the two half, joining the two half plus transom3. deck fixing plus cabin top4. keel plus rudderNOT the time for detailing Alex | 30532|30527|2013-10-21 21:52:44|Aaron|Re: Construction time|Brent has a time estimate just search the messages, but I think it was 100 hrs. for layout cutting and tacking it all together, 100 hrs. for weld out and 100 hrs. for trim.   Aaron   From: Alex Bar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 9:50 PMSubject: [origamiboats] Construction time   I think there are quite a lot of people here on this group owning a BS yacht.Does anybody know the average time spent in building the ruogh hull? I know it depend's on many items (tools,place,weather,ability...) but just to have an idea. 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8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1217803903 #ygrps-yiv-1217803903yiv4438582961 #ygrps-yiv-1217803903yiv4438582961ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1217803903 #ygrps-yiv-1217803903yiv4438582961 #ygrps-yiv-1217803903yiv4438582961ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1217803903 #ygrps-yiv-1217803903yiv4438582961 #ygrps-yiv-1217803903yiv4438582961ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1217803903 #ygrps-yiv-1217803903yiv4438582961 #ygrps-yiv-1217803903yiv4438582961ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1217803903 | 30533|30527|2013-10-22 06:54:37|cnc sales (hanermo)|Re: Construction time| I think it was about that-300 hours a basic brent boat in the 10 m range. but this assumes fast and furious, skills and tools. And not going for a yachty look, fit and finish. And no or minimal systems. Most people seem to spend a lot longer. You can spend that, and more, on "systems" if you want to. Plumbing, waste tanks (these are legally mandatory, in the EU and more and more elsewhere), cabling and wiring, electronics etc. I am of the opinion somewhere in-between. Hot and cold pressure water if I will spend long times in the boat. Creature comforts and hotel loads. But workboat ie industrial systems. Its about 30x cheaper per results gained to use industrial stuff than "yachty" stuff. Things like industrial/farm pumps etc. They also last in offshore use, unlike anything you find in the overpriced yacht store. For me, I would also add large PV systems and batteries and inverters. These are really cheap these days at wholesale prices. And they are by no means necessary, but will add a huge comfort level. For relatively minimal cost. About 3000 for large batteries, PV, inverters and controllers, all-in. Add a small watermaker and you have unlimited showers, drinking water, electronics, lights, pc, etc. Radar if you want it. And it very much depends on wheather you will go cruising for real or just spend some time off in the boat, imo. And if you have family. And if you want to or need to work. And what work you do. Brent has a time estimate just search the messages, but I think it was 100 hrs. for layout cutting and tacking it all together, 100 hrs. for weld out and 100 hrs. for trim.   Aaron -- -hanermo | 30534|30527|2013-10-24 16:14:49|Alex Bar|Re: Construction time|Thanks. For sure the final result of building your own yacht depends on many different sobjects. And all of them make the difference in time and money to spend.But this is the same for any boat, once you have the shall. So what makes the real difference is the time spent in building it.It seems that if you have the boat CAD drowed and computer plasma cut the amount of time drops drastically.What do you mean for 100 hours trim? What is "trim"? Alex2013/10/22 cnc sales (hanermo)   I think it was about that-300 hours a basic brent boat in the 10 m range. but this assumes fast and furious, skills and tools. And not going for a yachty look, fit and finish. And no or minimal systems. Most people seem to spend a lot longer. You can spend that, and more, on "systems" if you want to. Plumbing, waste tanks (these are legally mandatory, in the EU and more and more elsewhere), cabling and wiring, electronics etc. I am of the opinion somewhere in-between. Hot and cold pressure water if I will spend long times in the boat. Creature comforts and hotel loads. But workboat ie industrial systems. Its about 30x cheaper per results gained to use industrial stuff than "yachty" stuff. Things like industrial/farm pumps etc. They also last in offshore use, unlike anything you find in the overpriced yacht store. For me, I would also add large PV systems and batteries and inverters. These are really cheap these days at wholesale prices. And they are by no means necessary, but will add a huge comfort level. For relatively minimal cost. About 3000 for large batteries, PV, inverters and controllers, all-in. Add a small watermaker and you have unlimited showers, drinking water, electronics, lights, pc, etc. Radar if you want it. And it very much depends on wheather you will go cruising for real or just spend some time off in the boat, imo. And if you have family. And if you want to or need to work. And what work you do. Brent has a time estimate just search the messages, but I think it was 100 hrs. for layout cutting and tacking it all together, 100 hrs. for weld out and 100 hrs. for trim.   Aaron -- -hanermo | 30535|30527|2013-10-24 16:14:54|Alex Bar|Re: Construction time|Thanks. For sure the final result of building your own yacht depends on many different sobjects. And all of them make the difference in time and money to spend.But this is the same for any boat, once you have the shall. So what makes the real difference is the time spent in building it.It seems that if you have the boat CAD drowed and computer plasma cut the amount of time drops drastically.What do you mean for 100 hours trim? What is "trim"? Alex| 30536|30527|2013-10-24 16:27:37|brentswain38|Re: Construction time|100 hours is tacking together the basic shell, hull decks cabin, wheelhouse, cockpit   keel and skeg . Trim means finishing details like handrails, lifelines, hatches , chocks and  cleats, mast step and support , vents, engine mounts, tankage, stern tube , rudder fittings, self steering, etc etc . all of which can be done for a fraction the  cost of buying all that gear  at  retail prices from the ship swindlers. Welding it down takes a fraction the time of bolting down  yachtie gear, and is far tougher , more reliable and with zero chance of it ever leaking . ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Thanks. For sure the final result of building your own yacht depends on many different sobjects. And all of them make the difference in time and money to spend.But this is the same for any boat, once you have the shall. So what makes the real difference is the time spent in building it.It seems that if you have the boat CAD drowed and computer plasma cut the amount of time drops drastically.What do you mean for 100 hours trim? What is "trim"? Alex2013/10/22 cnc sales (hanermo)   I think it was about that-300 hours a basic brent boat in the 10 m range. but this assumes fast and furious, skills and tools. And not going for a yachty look, fit and finish. And no or minimal systems. Most people seem to spend a lot longer. You can spend that, and more, on "systems" if you want to. Plumbing, waste tanks (these are legally mandatory, in the EU and more and more elsewhere), cabling and wiring, electronics etc. I am of the opinion somewhere in-between. Hot and cold pressure water if I will spend long times in the boat. Creature comforts and hotel loads. But workboat ie industrial systems. Its about 30x cheaper per results gained to use industrial stuff than "yachty" stuff. Things like industrial/farm pumps etc. They also last in offshore use, unlike anything you find in the overpriced yacht store. For me, I would also add large PV systems and batteries and inverters. These are really cheap these days at wholesale prices. And they are by no means necessary, but will add a huge comfort level. For relatively minimal cost. About 3000 for large batteries, PV, inverters and controllers, all-in. Add a small watermaker and you have unlimited showers, drinking water, electronics, lights, pc, etc. Radar if you want it. And it very much depends on wheather you will go cruising for real or just spend some time off in the boat, imo. And if you have family. And if you want to or need to work. And what work you do. Brent has a time estimate just search the messages, but I think it was 100 hrs. for layout cutting and tacking it all together, 100 hrs. for weld out and 100 hrs. for trim.   Aaron -- -hanermo | 30537|30527|2013-10-24 16:29:59|brentswain38|Re: Construction time|One can easily put in conduit pipes for wiring, and foam them in. Then one can put in some cheap lamps , go cruising and add the toys and wiring as you cruise, and as you feel the need.  This lets you do things at a leisurely pace, and take your time, while enjoying the cruising. Composting heads can be built for a fraction the cost of buying the over priced ones on the market. As competition lowers the price they will replace  the common marine head, eliminating holding tanks on most boats. That leaves "Plumbing systems "  as nothing more than a galley sink drain, tankage  and intake and a  saltwater intake for the watermaker That leaves "Sewage systems" as nothing more than a composting head, and a 2 inch vent and fan  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: I think it was about that-300 hours a basic brent boat in the 10 m range. but this assumes fast and furious, skills and tools. And not going for a yachty look, fit and finish. And no or minimal systems. Most people seem to spend a lot longer. You can spend that, and more, on "systems" if you want to. Plumbing, waste tanks (these are legally mandatory, in the EU and more and more elsewhere), cabling and wiring, electronics etc. I am of the opinion somewhere in-between. Hot and cold pressure water if I will spend long times in the boat. Creature comforts and hotel loads. But workboat ie industrial systems. Its about 30x cheaper per results gained to use industrial stuff than "yachty" stuff. Things like industrial/farm pumps etc. They also last in offshore use, unlike anything you find in the overpriced yacht store. For me, I would also add large PV systems and batteries and inverters. These are really cheap these days at wholesale prices. And they are by no means necessary, but will add a huge comfort level. For relatively minimal cost. About 3000 for large batteries, PV, inverters and controllers, all-in. Add a small watermaker and you have unlimited showers, drinking water, electronics, lights, pc, etc. Radar if you want it. And it very much depends on wheather you will go cruising for real or just spend some time off in the boat, imo. And if you have family. And if you want to or need to work. And what work you do. Brent has a time estimate just search the messages, but I think it was 100 hrs. for layout cutting and tacking it all together, 100 hrs. for weld out and 100 hrs. for trim.   Aaron -- -hanermo | 30538|30538|2013-10-25 00:29:09|silascrosby|Silas Crosby, 36' twin-keel Swain for sale|Here's the ad link: http://silascrosby.com/sail/| 30539|30539|2013-10-26 19:10:48|Alex Bar|Andes: Aluminium interiors|In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? Alex| 30540|30539|2013-10-28 14:47:06|brentswain38|Re: Andes: Aluminium interiors|I met a couple from BC, in Tonga, who had framed their entire interior in aluminium angle.It rained condensation  continually in cold weather . When they got back to BC they cut it all out. Thermally insulating all such aluminium from the metal hull would considerably reduce the problem, but if you come home to a cold boat and put the heater on, you could have interior parts turn into water makers, until they warmed up a bit.I don't see the point in aluminium interiors ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? Alex| 30541|30539|2013-10-28 16:21:01|mauro gonzaga|Re: Andes: Aluminium interiors|Fire safe.Mauro On Monday, October 28, 2013 7:47 PM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   I met a couple from BC, in Tonga, who had framed their entire interior in aluminium angle.It rained condensation  continually in cold weather . When they got back to BC they cut it all out. Thermally insulating all such aluminium from the metal hull would considerably reduce the problem, but if you come home to a cold boat and put the heater on, you could have interior parts turn into water makers, until they warmed up a bit.I don't see the point in aluminium interiors ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? 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#ygrps-yiv-1189936010yiv9117751087ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1189936010 #ygrps-yiv-1189936010yiv9117751087 #ygrps-yiv-1189936010yiv9117751087ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1189936010 | 30542|30539|2013-10-28 17:42:17|James Pronk|Re: Andes: Aluminium interiors|I think the chances of it getting cold are far greater then having a fire.James From: mauro gonzaga ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Andes: Aluminium interiors Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 8:20:59 PM   Fire safe.Mauro On Monday, October 28, 2013 7:47 PM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   I met a couple from BC, in Tonga, who had framed their entire interior in aluminium angle.It rained condensation  continually in cold weather . When they got back to BC they cut it all out. Thermally insulating all such aluminium from the metal hull would considerably reduce the problem, but if you come home to a cold boat and put the heater on, you could have interior parts turn into water makers, until they warmed up a bit.I don't see the point in aluminium interiors ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? Alex | 30543|30539|2013-10-28 19:06:21|opuspaul|Re: Andes: Aluminium interiors|Fire risk has much more to do with all the miscellaneous materials and personal effects in a small yacht than just the bulkhead and frame materials.   Cushions, books, clothing, towels,  paint, fuel, etc are more than enough to feed a fire.   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:I think the chances of it getting cold are far greater then having a fire.James From: mauro gonzaga ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Andes: Aluminium interiors Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 8:20:59 PM   Fire safe.Mauro On Monday, October 28, 2013 7:47 PM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   I met a couple from BC, in Tonga, who had framed their entire interior in aluminium angle.It rained condensation  continually in cold weather . When they got back to BC they cut it all out. Thermally insulating all such aluminium from the metal hull would considerably reduce the problem, but if you come home to a cold boat and put the heater on, you could have interior parts turn into water makers, until they warmed up a bit.I don't see the point in aluminium interiors ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? Alex | 30544|30544|2013-10-29 09:46:00|m riley|aqua drive|I think this group had a discussion of aqua lifts recently. Here is another negative.I was looking through my  old work photos and found some of a lightning job I did.the aqua lift had had the balls welded to the races by the strike, the welds did not hold but ruined the cv joints. a thoughtmike| 30545|30539|2013-10-29 15:56:45|brentswain38|Re: Andes: Aluminium interiors|If a metal boat has a fire inside, seal it airtight, and the fire very quickly runs out of oxygen. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Fire risk has much more to do with all the miscellaneous materials and personal effects in a small yacht than just the bulkhead and frame materials.   Cushions, books, clothing, towels,  paint, fuel, etc are more than enough to feed a fire.   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:I think the chances of it getting cold are far greater then having a fire.James From: mauro gonzaga ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Andes: Aluminium interiors Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 8:20:59 PM   Fire safe.Mauro On Monday, October 28, 2013 7:47 PM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   I met a couple from BC, in Tonga, who had framed their entire interior in aluminium angle.It rained condensation  continually in cold weather . When they got back to BC they cut it all out. Thermally insulating all such aluminium from the metal hull would considerably reduce the problem, but if you come home to a cold boat and put the heater on, you could have interior parts turn into water makers, until they warmed up a bit.I don't see the point in aluminium interiors ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? Alex | 30546|30539|2013-10-29 16:08:40|Alex Bar|Re: Andes: Aluminium interiors|If there is a paint against the condensation maybe we could have a "point". That is why I would be courious to know how thw owner of "Andes" solved the problem. But it seems he is not in this group anymore... Alex2013/10/28   I met a couple from BC, in Tonga, who had framed their entire interior in aluminium angle.It rained condensation  continually in cold weather . When they got back to BC they cut it all out. Thermally insulating all such aluminium from the metal hull would considerably reduce the problem, but if you come home to a cold boat and put the heater on, you could have interior parts turn into water makers, until they warmed up a bit. I don't see the point in aluminium interiors ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? Alex | 30547|30547|2013-11-03 10:17:54|southcoveemail|List of plans for the 26' design|Sorry if this question has already been asked. The new group format makes it very difficult for me to do a search. In general the new format is terrible.I am asking if there is a list of plans for the 26 foot design.Is there also an option for the wheelhouse with a plan?I would also change the cabin top to a raised deck, remove the cockpit and put a shallower keel with a centerboard.Thanks| 30548|30547|2013-11-03 11:04:31|M.J. Malone|Re: List of plans for the 26' design| Contact Brent Swain for plans. All those changes negatively influence stability.  All of them together might be a bad idea.  You might have to consider changes to the ballast. Matt thierry.msika@... wrote:   Sorry if this question has already been asked. The new group format makes it very difficult for me to do a search. In general the new format is terrible. I am asking if there is a list of plans for the 26 foot design. Is there also an option for the wheelhouse with a plan? I would also change the cabin top to a raised deck, remove the cockpit and put a shallower keel with a centerboard. Thanks | 30549|30547|2013-11-04 17:01:36|James Pronk|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|Look at the yago project. It would be the closest to what you are looking for.By the way, has anyone heard from Gerd?James From: thierry.msika@... ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] List of plans for the 26' design Sent: Sun, Nov 3, 2013 3:17:53 PM   Sorry if this question has already been asked. The new group format makes it very difficult for me to do a search. In general the new format is terrible.I am asking if there is a list of plans for the 26 foot design.Is there also an option for the wheelhouse with a plan?I would also change the cabin top to a raised deck, remove the cockpit and put a shallower keel with a centerboard.Thanks | 30550|30547|2013-11-04 17:26:20|James Pronk|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|I think this is the linkhttp://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/designs/muller/yago/Good luckJames From: James Pronk ; To: Origami Boats ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] List of plans for the 26' design Sent: Mon, Nov 4, 2013 10:01:35 PM   Look at the yago project. It would be the closest to what you are looking for.By the way, has anyone heard from Gerd?James From: thierry.msika@... ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] List of plans for the 26' design Sent: Sun, Nov 3, 2013 3:17:53 PM   Sorry if this question has already been asked. The new group format makes it very difficult for me to do a search. In general the new format is terrible.I am asking if there is a list of plans for the 26 foot design.Is there also an option for the wheelhouse with a plan?I would also change the cabin top to a raised deck, remove the cockpit and put a shallower keel with a centerboard.Thanks | 30551|30547|2013-11-05 02:04:26|cnc sales (hanermo)|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|It is not a good idea to start modifying a working plan unless one has substantial building and design experience, and money. It will be very much harder and very much more expensive if you modify the existing plans. Anything is doable - however the nr of work hours goes up a lot. Also there will be all sorts of issues that have not been apparent, and this usually means re-work. Expensive in hours, tools, materials and patience. > I am asking if there is a list of plans for the 26 foot design. > Is there also an option for the wheelhouse with a plan? > I would also change the cabin top to a raised deck, remove the cockpit > and put a shallower keel with a centerboard. > Thanks -- -hanermo| 30552|30547|2013-11-05 08:10:28|Thierry Msika|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. Cheers Thierry -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 30553|30547|2013-11-05 08:31:11|martin demers|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|how can you enjoy a sailboat without a cockpit?MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-05 à 08:10, "Thierry Msika" a écrit :   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. Cheers Thierry -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 30554|30547|2013-11-06 06:57:20|James Pronk|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|Have you looked at the back of Annie Hills book?If I remember right there is a bunch of boats like that show, is there not?I will have a look and see myself.I need to drag that book out again and have a good look at it anywaysJames From: Thierry Msika ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: List of plans for the 26' design Sent: Tue, Nov 5, 2013 1:10:23 PM   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. Cheers Thierry -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 30555|30539|2013-11-08 18:22:44|brentswain38|Re: Andes: Aluminium interiors|I tried that anti condensation paint . Worked until I started cooking. Then it rained condensation. It's grossly over rated .1/16th inch foam was far more effective  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:If there is a paint against the condensation maybe we could have a "point". That is why I would be courious to know how thw owner of "Andes" solved the problem. But it seems he is not in this group anymore... Alex2013/10/28   I met a couple from BC, in Tonga, who had framed their entire interior in aluminium angle.It rained condensation  continually in cold weather . When they got back to BC they cut it all out. Thermally insulating all such aluminium from the metal hull would considerably reduce the problem, but if you come home to a cold boat and put the heater on, you could have interior parts turn into water makers, until they warmed up a bit. I don't see the point in aluminium interiors ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? Alex | 30556|30547|2013-11-08 18:26:16|brentswain38|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|That would drastically reduce stability. As Bob Perry recently pointed out , interior space off the centreline is not all that useful anyway , as you wont have any headroom there anyway, not as useful as adequate side decks.For more visual interior space, use a lot  of mirrors.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Sorry if this question has already been asked. The new group format makes it very difficult for me to do a search. In general the new format is terrible.I am asking if there is a list of plans for the 26 foot design.Is there also an option for the wheelhouse with a plan?I would also change the cabin top to a raised deck, remove the cockpit and put a shallower keel with a centerboard.Thanks| 30557|30547|2013-11-09 14:08:23|Thomas Tangvald|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|If i may butt in here with my two cents...I personally find cockpits to be an incredible waste of space. My boat has no cockpit and the boat i crossed the Atlantic in neither. Neither did the boat i was brought up on (see the photo in my first post on my blog; http://tangvald.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/so-where-are-you-from/The only time a cockpit can be justified is for a daysailer where everyone is enjoying a little social sail in the cockpit and which is not used for living on. On long passages one spends almost all one's time inside away from the wind, spray, sun which are exhausting. In the harbour, a cockpit usually ends up becoming a sort of catch all for clutter and junk. Sitting  in a well versus sitting on the deck , i cannot see how that can possibly be such an advantage as to justify sacrificing a huge amount of internal living space for.And no cockpit means a significant weight saving plus freeing up the whole stern for a magnificient and comfortable cabin. Plus it is much safer. The boat just sheds any heavy water right off. Even with 'oversize' drains a cockpit that gets filled with water will take some time to empty putting the boat in great danger. With the usual size cockpit drains, it is extremely unseaworthy.  No serious cruising boat should be fitted as is usual for production yachts nowadays, with those little drains on huge cockpits. Thomas    T³Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planet Em Terça-feira, 5 de Novembro de 2013 10:31, martin demers escreveu:   how can you enjoy a sailboat without a cockpit?MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-05 à 08:10, "Thierry Msika" a écrit :   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. Cheers Thierry -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ #ygrps-yiv-1340145401 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545 -- #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1340145401 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1340145401 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1340145401 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1340145401 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1340145401 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1340145401 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1340145401 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545 #ygrps-yiv-1340145401yiv6351971545ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1340145401 | 30558|30539|2013-11-09 14:08:29|Alex Bar|Re: Andes: Aluminium interiors|Yes, that is why I would like to know about the "Andes" experience, maybe he has found the right paint, or maybe not. That would be very interesting. Two the reasons. Cheaper first and not need of covering work with play wood sheets (expensive and time loosing). I'm not talking about a boat where to live all the year long in a very cold weather.Alex I tried that anti condensation paint . Worked until I started cooking. Then it rained condensation. It's grossly over rated .1/16th inch foam was far more effective 2013/11/9   I tried that anti condensation paint . Worked until I started cooking. Then it rained condensation. It's grossly over rated .1/16th inch foam was far more effective  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: If there is a paint against the condensation maybe we could have a "point". That is why I would be courious to know how thw owner of "Andes" solved the problem. But it seems he is not in this group anymore... Alex2013/10/28   I met a couple from BC, in Tonga, who had framed their entire interior in aluminium angle.It rained condensation  continually in cold weather . When they got back to BC they cut it all out. Thermally insulating all such aluminium from the metal hull would considerably reduce the problem, but if you come home to a cold boat and put the heater on, you could have interior parts turn into water makers, until they warmed up a bit. I don't see the point in aluminium interiors ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? Alex | 30559|30539|2013-11-09 14:08:45|mig219214326|Re: Andes: Aluminium interiors| The French spray cork inside their aluminum hull (all inside surfaces) and that is very effective against condensation. Some of these aluminum boats have wintered in the ice north of the artic circle. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:If there is a paint against the condensation maybe we could have a "point". That is why I would be courious to know how thw owner of "Andes" solved the problem. But it seems he is not in this group anymore... Alex2013/10/28   I met a couple from BC, in Tonga, who had framed their entire interior in aluminium angle.It rained condensation  continually in cold weather . When they got back to BC they cut it all out. Thermally insulating all such aluminium from the metal hull would considerably reduce the problem, but if you come home to a cold boat and put the heater on, you could have interior parts turn into water makers, until they warmed up a bit. I don't see the point in aluminium interiors ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? Alex | 30560|30539|2013-11-09 14:16:18|martin demers|Re: Andes: Aluminium interiors|Do you know how thick they spray cork?MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-09 à 14:09, mig219214326@... a écrit :    The French spray cork inside their aluminum hull (all inside surfaces) and that is very effective against condensation. Some of these aluminum boats have wintered in the ice north of the artic circle. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:If there is a paint against the condensation maybe we could have a "point". That is why I would be courious to know how thw owner of "Andes" solved the problem. But it seems he is not in this group anymore... Alex2013/10/28   I met a couple from BC, in Tonga, who had framed their entire interior in aluminium angle.It rained condensation  continually in cold weather . When they got back to BC they cut it all out. Thermally insulating all such aluminium from the metal hull would considerably reduce the problem, but if you come home to a cold boat and put the heater on, you could have interior parts turn into water makers, until they warmed up a bit. I don't see the point in aluminium interiors ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? Alex | 30561|30547|2013-11-09 14:47:55|martin demers|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|Dont you think a cockpit is a good protection under bad conditions when you have to be outside?MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-09 à 14:08, "Thomas Tangvald" a écrit :   If i may butt in here with my two cents...I personally find cockpits to be an incredible waste of space. My boat has no cockpit and the boat i crossed the Atlantic in neither. Neither did the boat i was brought up on (see the photo in my first post on my blog; http://tangvald.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/so-where-are-you-from/The only time a cockpit can be justified is for a daysailer where everyone is enjoying a little social sail in the cockpit and which is not used for living on. On long passages one spends almost all one's time inside away from the wind, spray, sun which are exhausting. In the harbour, a cockpit usually ends up becoming a sort of catch all for clutter and junk. Sitting  in a well versus sitting on the deck , i cannot see how that can possibly be such an advantage as to justify sacrificing a huge amount of internal living space for.And no cockpit means a significant weight saving plus freeing up the whole stern for a magnificient and comfortable cabin. Plus it is much safer. The boat just sheds any heavy water right off. Even with 'oversize' drains a cockpit that gets filled with water will take some time to empty putting the boat in great danger. With the usual size cockpit drains, it is extremely unseaworthy.  No serious cruising boat should be fitted as is usual for production yachts nowadays, with those little drains on huge cockpits. Thomas    T³Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planet Em Terça-feira, 5 de Novembro de 2013 10:31, martin demers escreveu:   how can you enjoy a sailboat without a cockpit?MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-05 à 08:10, "Thierry Msika" a écrit :   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. Cheers Thierry -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 30562|30547|2013-11-09 14:59:19|M.J. Malone|Re: List of plans for the 26' design| About having no cockpit, Martin asks about safety when one must be outdoors. Must be outside?  There have been posts before about inside steering locations.  I had assumed at least sheetsmight be routed indooors? Matt martin demers wrote:   Dont you think a cockpit is a good protection under bad conditions when you have to be outside? Martin Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 2013-11-09 à 14:08, "Thomas Tangvald" a écrit :   If i may butt in here with my two cents... I personally find cockpits to be an incredible waste of space. My boat has no cockpit and the boat i crossed the Atlantic in neither. Neither did the boat i was brought up on (see the photo in my first post on my blog; http://tangvald.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/so-where-are-you-from/ The only time a cockpit can be justified is for a daysailer where everyone is enjoying a little social sail in the cockpit and which is not used for living on. On long passages one spends almost all one's time inside away from the wind, spray, sun which are exhausting. In the harbour, a cockpit usually ends up becoming a sort of catch all for clutter and junk. Sitting  in a well versus sitting on the deck , i cannot see how that can possibly be such an advantage as to justify sacrificing a huge amount of internal living space for. And no cockpit means a significant weight saving plus freeing up the whole stern for a magnificient and comfortable cabin. Plus it is much safer. The boat just sheds any heavy water right off. Even with 'oversize' drains a cockpit that gets filled with water will take some time to empty putting the boat in great danger. With the usual size cockpit drains, it is extremely unseaworthy.  No serious cruising boat should be fitted as is usual for production yachts nowadays, with those little drains on huge cockpits.   Thomas     T³ Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planet Em Terça-feira, 5 de Novembro de 2013 10:31, martin demers escreveu:   how can you enjoy a sailboat without a cockpit? Martin Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 2013-11-05 à 08:10, "Thierry Msika" a écrit :   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. Cheers Thierry -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 30563|30547|2013-11-09 15:01:34|martin demers|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|Yes, I mean when one must be outdoors ( excuse my french)MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-09 à 14:59, "M.J. Malone" a écrit :   About having no cockpit, Martin asks about safety when one must be outdoors. Must be outside?  There have been posts before about inside steering locations.  I had assumed at least sheetsmight be routed indooors? Matt martin demers wrote:   Dont you think a cockpit is a good protection under bad conditions when you have to be outside? Martin Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 2013-11-09 à 14:08, "Thomas Tangvald" a écrit :   If i may butt in here with my two cents... I personally find cockpits to be an incredible waste of space. My boat has no cockpit and the boat i crossed the Atlantic in neither. Neither did the boat i was brought up on (see the photo in my first post on my blog; http://tangvald.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/so-where-are-you-from/ The only time a cockpit can be justified is for a daysailer where everyone is enjoying a little social sail in the cockpit and which is not used for living on. On long passages one spends almost all one's time inside away from the wind, spray, sun which are exhausting. In the harbour, a cockpit usually ends up becoming a sort of catch all for clutter and junk. Sitting  in a well versus sitting on the deck , i cannot see how that can possibly be such an advantage as to justify sacrificing a huge amount of internal living space for. And no cockpit means a significant weight saving plus freeing up the whole stern for a magnificient and comfortable cabin. Plus it is much safer. The boat just sheds any heavy water right off. Even with 'oversize' drains a cockpit that gets filled with water will take some time to empty putting the boat in great danger. With the usual size cockpit drains, it is extremely unseaworthy.  No serious cruising boat should be fitted as is usual for production yachts nowadays, with those little drains on huge cockpits.   Thomas     T³ Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planet Em Terça-feira, 5 de Novembro de 2013 10:31, martin demers escreveu:   how can you enjoy a sailboat without a cockpit? Martin Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 2013-11-05 à 08:10, "Thierry Msika" a écrit :   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. Cheers Thierry -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 30564|30547|2013-11-09 16:44:15|Thomas Tangvald|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|Well, sure but, like i said, on long passages the only time i'm outside is when there is some sail change to do etc; so basically you're clambering all over the boat anyways. The sheets usually go to the cockpit, but once you're done adjusting them, there is nothing left to do outside.If you're stuck outside steering, then quite frankly, as they say; "you're doing it wrong".. In fact, the worse the weather the less i'll be outside , cockpit or no, it's just unpleasant! If things are hairy, what is extremely useful is a strategically placed porthole or two so you can keep an eyeball on things (those clear domes are awesome) whilst still being nice and cozy inside, and just a split second from jumping back out if  an urgency requires.    T³Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planettangvald.wordpress.com Em Sábado, 9 de Novembro de 2013 17:01, martin demers escreveu:   Yes, I mean when one must be outdoors ( excuse my french)MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-09 à 14:59, "M.J. Malone" a écrit :   About having no cockpit, Martin asks about safety when one must be outdoors. Must be outside?  There have been posts before about inside steering locations.  I had assumed at least sheetsmight be routed indooors? Matt martin demers wrote:   Dont you think a cockpit is a good protection under bad conditions when you have to be outside? Martin Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 2013-11-09 à 14:08, "Thomas Tangvald" a écrit :   If i may butt in here with my two cents... I personally find cockpits to be an incredible waste of space. My boat has no cockpit and the boat i crossed the Atlantic in neither. Neither did the boat i was brought up on (see the photo in my first post on my blog; http://tangvald.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/so-where-are-you-from/ The only time a cockpit can be justified is for a daysailer where everyone is enjoying a little social sail in the cockpit and which is not used for living on. On long passages one spends almost all one's time inside away from the wind, spray, sun which are exhausting. In the harbour, a cockpit usually ends up becoming a sort of catch all for clutter and junk. Sitting  in a well versus sitting on the deck , i cannot see how that can possibly be such an advantage as to justify sacrificing a huge amount of internal living space for. And no cockpit means a significant weight saving plus freeing up the whole stern for a magnificient and comfortable cabin. Plus it is much safer. The boat just sheds any heavy water right off. Even with 'oversize' drains a cockpit that gets filled with water will take some time to empty putting the boat in great danger. With the usual size cockpit drains, it is extremely unseaworthy.  No serious cruising boat should be fitted as is usual for production yachts nowadays, with those little drains on huge cockpits.   Thomas     T³ Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planet Em Terça-feira, 5 de Novembro de 2013 10:31, martin demers escreveu:   how can you enjoy a sailboat without a cockpit? Martin Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 2013-11-05 à 08:10, "Thierry Msika" a écrit :   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1245298750 #ygrps-yiv-1245298750yiv1400523568 #ygrps-yiv-1245298750yiv1400523568ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1245298750 #ygrps-yiv-1245298750yiv1400523568 #ygrps-yiv-1245298750yiv1400523568ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1245298750 | 30565|30547|2013-11-09 18:15:00|M.J. Malone|Re: List of plans for the 26' design| I have considered how to route sheets so they might be routed inside or out.  I am imagining an inside cockpit with drains far superior to the leaks, but, holes and eyes big enough to lead sheets through.   99% rain proof, 98% wind proof, 10 minutes flood proof.  Until there is a sail change one would not have to go out, and when you do, you would at most cross through the exterior cockpit.  Matt Thomas Tangvald wrote:   Well, sure but, like i said, on long passages the only time i'm outside is when there is some sail change to do etc; so basically you're clambering all over the boat anyways. The sheets usually go to the cockpit, but once you're done adjusting them, there is nothing left to do outside. If you're stuck outside steering, then quite frankly, as they say; "you're doing it wrong"..  In fact, the worse the weather the less i'll be outside , cockpit or no, it's just unpleasant! If things are hairy, what is extremely useful is a strategically placed porthole or two so you can keep an eyeball on things (those clear domes are awesome) whilst still being nice and cozy inside, and just a split second from jumping back out if  an urgency requires.    T³ Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planet tangvald.wordpress.com Em Sábado, 9 de Novembro de 2013 17:01, martin demers escreveu:   Yes, I mean when one must be outdoors ( excuse my french) Martin Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 2013-11-09 à 14:59, "M.J. Malone" a écrit :   About having no cockpit, Martin asks about safety when one must be outdoors. Must be outside?  There have been posts before about inside steering locations.  I had assumed at least sheetsmight be routed indooors? Matt martin demers wrote:   Dont you think a cockpit is a good protection under bad conditions when you have to be outside? Martin Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 2013-11-09 à 14:08, "Thomas Tangvald" a écrit :   If i may butt in here with my two cents... I personally find cockpits to be an incredible waste of space. My boat has no cockpit and the boat i crossed the Atlantic in neither. Neither did the boat i was brought up on (see the photo in my first post on my blog; http://tangvald.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/so-where-are-you-from/ The only time a cockpit can be justified is for a daysailer where everyone is enjoying a little social sail in the cockpit and which is not used for living on. On long passages one spends almost all one's time inside away from the wind, spray, sun which are exhausting. In the harbour, a cockpit usually ends up becoming a sort of catch all for clutter and junk. Sitting  in a well versus sitting on the deck , i cannot see how that can possibly be such an advantage as to justify sacrificing a huge amount of internal living space for. And no cockpit means a significant weight saving plus freeing up the whole stern for a magnificient and comfortable cabin. Plus it is much safer. The boat just sheds any heavy water right off. Even with 'oversize' drains a cockpit that gets filled with water will take some time to empty putting the boat in great danger. With the usual size cockpit drains, it is extremely unseaworthy.  No serious cruising boat should be fitted as is usual for production yachts nowadays, with those little drains on huge cockpits.   Thomas     T³ Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planet Em Terça-feira, 5 de Novembro de 2013 10:31, martin demers escreveu:   how can you enjoy a sailboat without a cockpit? Martin Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 2013-11-05 à 08:10, "Thierry Msika" a écrit :   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. Cheers Thierry -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 30566|30547|2013-11-09 18:15:58|opuspaul|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|I have sailed offshore on boats both with and without cockpits.  On a large boat of 45 or so feet, bench seating without a cockpit can work really well.   On a small boat, where you don't want the increased height and windage of bench seating, I would rather be tucked down and have the protection of a cockpit.  On a small boat, it is important to have some protection from breaking waves.Also,  I wouldn't want to be stuck down below in the heat of the tropics.  Whether at sea or at anchor, I spend probably 90% of my time in the cockpit where you can look around, see the world and get some breeze.  Having a comfortable place to sit outside, have a rum and read a good book is one of life's pleasures.  A sun canopy is essential, however.   Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Well, sure but, like i said, on long passages the only time i'm outside is when there is some sail change to do etc; so basically you're clambering all over the boat anyways. The sheets usually go to the cockpit, but once you're done adjusting them, there is nothing left to do outside.If you're stuck outside steering, then quite frankly, as they say; "you're doing it wrong".. In fact, the worse the weather the less i'll be outside , cockpit or no, it's just unpleasant! If things are hairy, what is extremely useful is a strategically placed porthole or two so you can keep an eyeball on things (those clear domes are awesome) whilst still being nice and cozy inside, and just a split second from jumping back out if  an urgency requires.    T³Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planettangvald.wordpress.com Em Sábado, 9 de Novembro de 2013 17:01, martin demers escreveu:   Yes, I mean when one must be outdoors ( excuse my french)MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-09 à 14:59, "M.J. Malone" a écrit :   About having no cockpit, Martin asks about safety when one must be outdoors. Must be outside?  There have been posts before about inside steering locations.  I had assumed at least sheetsmight be routed indooors? Matt martin demers wrote:   Dont you think a cockpit is a good protection under bad conditions when you have to be outside? Martin Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 2013-11-09 à 14:08, "Thomas Tangvald" a écrit :   If i may butt in here with my two cents... I personally find cockpits to be an incredible waste of space. My boat has no cockpit and the boat i crossed the Atlantic in neither. Neither did the boat i was brought up on (see the photo in my first post on my blog; http://tangvald.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/so-where-are-you-from/ The only time a cockpit can be justified is for a daysailer where everyone is enjoying a little social sail in the cockpit and which is not used for living on. On long passages one spends almost all one's time inside away from the wind, spray, sun which are exhausting. In the harbour, a cockpit usually ends up becoming a sort of catch all for clutter and junk. Sitting  in a well versus sitting on the deck , i cannot see how that can possibly be such an advantage as to justify sacrificing a huge amount of internal living space for. And no cockpit means a significant weight saving plus freeing up the whole stern for a magnificient and comfortable cabin. Plus it is much safer. The boat just sheds any heavy water right off. Even with 'oversize' drains a cockpit that gets filled with water will take some time to empty putting the boat in great danger. With the usual size cockpit drains, it is extremely unseaworthy.  No serious cruising boat should be fitted as is usual for production yachts nowadays, with those little drains on huge cockpits.   Thomas     T³ Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planet Em Terça-feira, 5 de Novembro de 2013 10:31, martin demers escreveu:   how can you enjoy a sailboat without a cockpit? Martin Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 2013-11-05 à 08:10, "Thierry Msika" a écrit :   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. 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The question is how drastically it would? I am hoping that reducing the draft from say 46 to 36" would be OK. I would compensate for that reduced stability through several measures: a wider and longer keel to accommodate the centerboard and lower the ballast, a plywood deck, a shorter rig and storage in bins instead of on each side of the hull. All that should lower the center of gravity.Would a raised deck reduce the stability? The cabin sides would just be shifted outboard so there shouldn't be any more material thus weight involved. Ultimate stability should actually improve with more deck crown and a raised deck. No?Sitting headroom is useful against the ceiling, side decks get created through the central position of an upturned dinghy located behind the mast in the case of a junk rig and around the dinghy that can be equipped with handrail on its bottom.Interesting idea with the mirrors though I wouldn't know where to put them so that they are not at risk.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Sorry if this question has already been asked. The new group format makes it very difficult for me to do a search. In general the new format is terrible.I am asking if there is a list of plans for the 26 foot design.Is there also an option for the wheelhouse with a plan?I would also change the cabin top to a raised deck, remove the cockpit and put a shallower keel with a centerboard.Thanks | 30569|30547|2013-11-10 17:08:17|southcoveemail|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|-"On a small boat, it is important to have some protection from breaking waves."If the waves are breaking on board either the self-steering is steering the boat or it's time to heave-to.-"Also,  I wouldn't want to be stuck down below in the heat of the tropics.  Whether at sea or at anchor, I spend probably 90% of my time in the cockpit where you can look around, see the world and get some breeze.  Having a comfortable place to sit outside, have a rum and read a good book is one of life's pleasures.  A sun canopy is essential, however.   Paul" This is not my opinion nor my experience, in the tropics the water around the boat is usually cooler that the air and a well ventilated cabin is more comfortable that sitting outside. On our boat we have a cargo hatch (42x31") with a table under it and seating headroom (raised floor). This is the best place to lounge at anchor with a shade over it. At sea I definitely favor the inside of the boat except if it's calm and temperate outside.But it's just my way.Cheers | 30570|30547|2013-11-10 17:24:46|opuspaul|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|I have had waves break on board in just about any mode of sailing whether going upwind or down.   If they are steep and the crests are tumbling, there is not much you can do about it.  Only hot shot and extreme racers can try to outrun breaking waves and that can have it's own problems.   Sailing in the narrow channels of Hawaii, it was like a washing machine with adverse currents and strong wind.  The waves were leaping up and crashing down regularly from just about any direction.   Ugly stuff which I wouldn't wish on anyone.My boat is always under self steering unless hove-to.   I can't see the point of hand steering if the windvane or autopilot works well.   I usually have better things to do than steering :).   Cheers. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:-"On a small boat, it is important to have some protection from breaking waves."If the waves are breaking on board either the self-steering is steering the boat or it's time to heave-to.-"Also,  I wouldn't want to be stuck down below in the heat of the tropics.  Whether at sea or at anchor, I spend probably 90% of my time in the cockpit where you can look around, see the world and get some breeze.  Having a comfortable place to sit outside, have a rum and read a good book is one of life's pleasures.  A sun canopy is essential, however.   Paul" This is not my opinion nor my experience, in the tropics the water around the boat is usually cooler that the air and a well ventilated cabin is more comfortable that sitting outside. On our boat we have a cargo hatch (42x31") with a table under it and seating headroom (raised floor). This is the best place to lounge at anchor with a shade over it. At sea I definitely favor the inside of the boat except if it's calm and temperate outside.But it's just my way.Cheers | 30571|30538|2013-11-10 20:29:57|silascrosby|Re: Silas Crosby, 36' twin-keel Swain for sale|There was a Swedish guy, Benny , who sent a question to me today about the Silas Crosby for sale, but his message has gone missing. Try again please to: svsilascrosby at gmail dot comAlso see the thread, for more photos, on the Cruiser's forum at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324.htmlSteve ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Here's the ad link: http://silascrosby.com/sail/| 30572|30547|2013-11-12 20:18:57|brentswain38|Re: List of plans for the 26' design| If you don' t have a cockpit where does the junk end up? All over the place . The same can be said about pilot berths  . Without a cockpit, you are climbing that  much higher any time you exit the boat rough conditions.  You are that much higher and more precariously balanced more of the time. There are some rough conditions in rough weather when you have to be in the cockpit, entering  a narrow harbour entrance at night . I'd rather feel more  in the boat than on it. With my cockpit draining thru 2 inch by 6 inch holes in the transom, it drains very quickly .  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:If i may butt in here with my two cents...I personally find cockpits to be an incredible waste of space. My boat has no cockpit and the boat i crossed the Atlantic in neither. Neither did the boat i was brought up on (see the photo in my first post on my blog; http://tangvald.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/so-where-are-you-from/The only time a cockpit can be justified is for a daysailer where everyone is enjoying a little social sail in the cockpit and which is not used for living on. On long passages one spends almost all one's time inside away from the wind, spray, sun which are exhausting. In the harbour, a cockpit usually ends up becoming a sort of catch all for clutter and junk. Sitting  in a well versus sitting on the deck , i cannot see how that can possibly be such an advantage as to justify sacrificing a huge amount of internal living space for.And no cockpit means a significant weight saving plus freeing up the whole stern for a magnificient and comfortable cabin. Plus it is much safer. The boat just sheds any heavy water right off. Even with 'oversize' drains a cockpit that gets filled with water will take some time to empty putting the boat in great danger. With the usual size cockpit drains, it is extremely unseaworthy.  No serious cruising boat should be fitted as is usual for production yachts nowadays, with those little drains on huge cockpits. Thomas    T³Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planet Em Terça-feira, 5 de Novembro de 2013 10:31, martin demers escreveu:   how can you enjoy a sailboat without a cockpit?MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-05 à 08:10, "Thierry Msika" a écrit :   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. 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#ygrps-yiv-2143411837 #ygrps-yiv-2143411837ygrps-yiv-971411628 #ygrps-yiv-2143411837ygrps-yiv-971411628yiv6351971545 #ygrps-yiv-2143411837ygrps-yiv-971411628yiv6351971545ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 30573|30539|2013-11-12 20:21:30|brentswain38|Re: Andes: Aluminium interiors|That may stop condensation , but its no comparison with an inch and a half of sprayfoam. Yes, masochists can survive a winter in the ice with such minimal insulation ,but who wants to be a masochist?  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: The French spray cork inside their aluminum hull (all inside surfaces) and that is very effective against condensation. Some of these aluminum boats have wintered in the ice north of the artic circle. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:If there is a paint against the condensation maybe we could have a "point". That is why I would be courious to know how thw owner of "Andes" solved the problem. But it seems he is not in this group anymore... Alex2013/10/28   I met a couple from BC, in Tonga, who had framed their entire interior in aluminium angle.It rained condensation  continually in cold weather . When they got back to BC they cut it all out. Thermally insulating all such aluminium from the metal hull would considerably reduce the problem, but if you come home to a cold boat and put the heater on, you could have interior parts turn into water makers, until they warmed up a bit. I don't see the point in aluminium interiors ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? Alex | 30574|30567|2013-11-12 20:23:52|brentswain38|Re: Brent's self steering rig|Mine is s roughly 16 inches by 30 inches. In light airs, the biggest one which will fit,is a good idea. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:For the people using Brent's self steering design, what size sail works well to drive the trim tab?Thank you,James| 30575|30547|2013-11-12 20:28:41|brentswain38|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|A plywood deck on a steel boat would be a huge mistake.  More ,when I get a computer which doesn't delete randomly.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Do you mean shortening the keel or having a raised deck would reduce the stability? The question is how drastically it would? I am hoping that reducing the draft from say 46 to 36" would be OK. I would compensate for that reduced stability through several measures: a wider and longer keel to accommodate the centerboard and lower the ballast, a plywood deck, a shorter rig and storage in bins instead of on each side of the hull. All that should lower the center of gravity.Would a raised deck reduce the stability? The cabin sides would just be shifted outboard so there shouldn't be any more material thus weight involved. Ultimate stability should actually improve with more deck crown and a raised deck. No?Sitting headroom is useful against the ceiling, side decks get created through the central position of an upturned dinghy located behind the mast in the case of a junk rig and around the dinghy that can be equipped with handrail on its bottom.Interesting idea with the mirrors though I wouldn't know where to put them so that they are not at risk.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Sorry if this question has already been asked. The new group format makes it very difficult for me to do a search. In general the new format is terrible.I am asking if there is a list of plans for the 26 foot design.Is there also an option for the wheelhouse with a plan?I would also change the cabin top to a raised deck, remove the cockpit and put a shallower keel with a centerboard.Thanks | 30576|30547|2013-11-12 21:23:52|martin demers|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|Hi Brent,How deep is your cockpit from the seating position?MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-12 à 20:19, brentswain38@... a écrit :    If you don' t have a cockpit where does the junk end up? All over the place . The same can be said about pilot berths  . Without a cockpit, you are climbing that  much higher any time you exit the boat rough conditions.  You are that much higher and more precariously balanced more of the time. There are some rough conditions in rough weather when you have to be in the cockpit, entering  a narrow harbour entrance at night . I'd rather feel more  in the boat than on it. With my cockpit draining thru 2 inch by 6 inch holes in the transom, it drains very quickly .  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:If i may butt in here with my two cents...I personally find cockpits to be an incredible waste of space. My boat has no cockpit and the boat i crossed the Atlantic in neither. Neither did the boat i was brought up on (see the photo in my first post on my blog; http://tangvald.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/so-where-are-you-from/The only time a cockpit can be justified is for a daysailer where everyone is enjoying a little social sail in the cockpit and which is not used for living on. On long passages one spends almost all one's time inside away from the wind, spray, sun which are exhausting. In the harbour, a cockpit usually ends up becoming a sort of catch all for clutter and junk. Sitting  in a well versus sitting on the deck , i cannot see how that can possibly be such an advantage as to justify sacrificing a huge amount of internal living space for.And no cockpit means a significant weight saving plus freeing up the whole stern for a magnificient and comfortable cabin. Plus it is much safer. The boat just sheds any heavy water right off. Even with 'oversize' drains a cockpit that gets filled with water will take some time to empty putting the boat in great danger. With the usual size cockpit drains, it is extremely unseaworthy.  No serious cruising boat should be fitted as is usual for production yachts nowadays, with those little drains on huge cockpits. Thomas    T³Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planet Em Terça-feira, 5 de Novembro de 2013 10:31, martin demers escreveu:   how can you enjoy a sailboat without a cockpit?MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-05 à 08:10, "Thierry Msika" a écrit :   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. Cheers Thierry -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 30577|30567|2013-11-12 22:31:46|James Pronk|Re: Brent's self steering rig|Brent thank you, that helps a lot. I will see what size I can fit on what I have. I did go through the photos section and scaled it off one of the photos.Thanks James From: brentswain38@... ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] RE: Brent's self steering rig Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2013 1:23:51 AM   Mine is s roughly 16 inches by 30 inches. In light airs, the biggest one which will fit,is a good idea.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:For the people using Brent's self steering design, what size sail works well to drive the trim tab?Thank you,James | 30578|30578|2013-11-13 07:36:31|southcoveemail|BS 26' in NS|Is there someone building or intending to build the 26' in Nova Scotia or nearby?The profile picture is not enough for me to decide.| 30579|30578|2013-11-13 08:21:29|Matt Malone|Re: BS 26' in NS| Kim in Australia has done a really good sequence of pictures of his 26 foot build:http://theboat.smugmug.com/Boats/Kim/14192611_zXbJLD#!i=2388656579&k=3DKtChWThe pictures are in reverse order, so, start at page 56 and work backward through the album.   It won't replace seeing one in person, but, it is sure easier than 100 visits in person over a year to see the process.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: thierry.msika@...Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 04:36:30 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] BS 26' in NS   Is there someone building or intending to build the 26' in Nova Scotia or nearby?The profile picture is not enough for me to decide. | 30580|30578|2013-11-13 15:57:24|kimdxx|Re: BS 26' in NS| And what's more, after very a long break away from his boat, Kim in Australia is about to start work on it again, probably almost full-time, so there will be lots more photos up there in a couple of months or so!  :-)Cheers ...Kim._________________________________Kim in Australia has done a really good sequence of pictures of his 26 foot build:http://theboat.smugmug.com/Boats/Kim/14192611_zXbJLD#!i=2388656579&k=3DKtChWThe pictures are in reverse order, so, start at page 56 and work backward through the album.   It won't replace seeing one in person, but, it is sure easier than 100 visits in person over a year to see the process.  Matt_________________________________To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: thierry.msika@...Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 04:36:30 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] BS 26' in NSIs there someone building or intending to build the 26' in Nova Scotia or nearby?The profile picture is not enough for me to decide._________________________________ ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Kim in Australia has done a really good sequence of pictures of his 26 foot build:http://theboat.smugmug.com/Boats/Kim/14192611_zXbJLD#!i=2388656579&k=3DKtChWThe pictures are in reverse order, so, start at page 56 and work backward through the album.   It won't replace seeing one in person, but, it is sure easier than 100 visits in person over a year to see the process.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: thierry.msika@...Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 04:36:30 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] BS 26' in NS   Is there someone building or intending to build the 26' in Nova Scotia or nearby?The profile picture is not enough for me to decide. | 30581|30578|2013-11-13 16:05:19|Matt Malone|Cool 3D fitting technique I learned from Kim| Accurately cutting 3 dimensional shapes, or practically, the intersection of one shape with another has always baffled me.  I have seen a couple of methods but this is just too simple and as accurate as you want:http://www.builderbill-diy-help.com/joggle-stick.htmlAnd Kim's building log is where I learned this.   I always thought this group was great for learning, even if it is simple boat-building and boat systems-building techniques.   Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: kimdxx@...Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 12:57:24 -0800Subject: RE: RE: [origamiboats] BS 26' in NS    And what's more, after very a long break away from his boat, Kim in Australia is about to start work on it again, probably almost full-time, so there will be lots more photos up there in a couple of months or so!  :-)Cheers ...Kim._________________________________Kim in Australia has done a really good sequence of pictures of his 26 foot build:http://theboat.smugmug.com/Boats/Kim/14192611_zXbJLD#!i=2388656579&k=3DKtChWThe pictures are in reverse order, so, start at page 56 and work backward through the album.   It won't replace seeing one in person, but, it is sure easier than 100 visits in person over a year to see the process.  Matt_________________________________To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: thierry.msika@...Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 04:36:30 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] BS 26' in NSIs there someone building or intending to build the 26' in Nova Scotia or nearby?The profile picture is not enough for me to decide._________________________________ ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Kim in Australia has done a really good sequence of pictures of his 26 foot build:http://theboat.smugmug.com/Boats/Kim/14192611_zXbJLD#!i=2388656579&k=3DKtChWThe pictures are in reverse order, so, start at page 56 and work backward through the album.   It won't replace seeing one in person, but, it is sure easier than 100 visits in person over a year to see the process.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: thierry.msika@...Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 04:36:30 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] BS 26' in NS   Is there someone building or intending to build the 26' in Nova Scotia or nearby?The profile picture is not enough for me to decide. | 30582|30578|2013-11-13 16:20:55|James Pronk|Re: BS 26' in NS|KimI am so glad to heart that you are able to get back at your boat.Good luckJames From: kimdxx@... ; To: ; Subject: RE: RE: [origamiboats] BS 26' in NS Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2013 8:57:24 PM    And what's more, after very a long break away from his boat, Kim in Australia is about to start work on it again, probably almost full-time, so there will be lots more photos up there in a couple of months or so!  :-)Cheers ...Kim._________________________________Kim in Australia has done a really good sequence of pictures of his 26 foot build:http://theboat.smugmug.com/Boats/Kim/14192611_zXbJLD#!i=2388656579&k=3DKtChWThe pictures are in reverse order, so, start at page 56 and work backward through the album.   It won't replace seeing one in person, but, it is sure easier than 100 visits in person over a year to see the process.  Matt_________________________________To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: thierry.msika@...Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 04:36:30 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] BS 26' in NSIs there someone building or intending to build the 26' in Nova Scotia or nearby?The profile picture is not enough for me to decide._________________________________ ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Kim in Australia has done a really good sequence of pictures of his 26 foot build:http://theboat.smugmug.com/Boats/Kim/14192611_zXbJLD#!i=2388656579&k=3DKtChWThe pictures are in reverse order, so, start at page 56 and work backward through the album.   It won't replace seeing one in person, but, it is sure easier than 100 visits in person over a year to see the process.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: thierry.msika@...Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 04:36:30 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] BS 26' in NS   Is there someone building or intending to build the 26' in Nova Scotia or nearby?The profile picture is not enough for me to decide. | 30583|30578|2013-11-13 17:09:14|southcoveemail|Re: BS 26' in NS|I know the very good photo stream of Kim and I am very grateful for him to have made it available. It's a fantastic resource.I am not overly concerned with the building process.Another thing that would help to decide is the paper pattern of the hull to make a model and see it in 3 dimensions. I am not trying to cheat and get the plans for nothing. I think they are cheap enough.The problem with the 26 is that there aren't many that have been built and probably even less that are sailing, so the feedback is scarce or non existent.I gather that Dove III was heavily modified and stretched. | 30584|30539|2013-11-13 18:59:19|Alex Bar|Re: Andes: Aluminium interiors|How thick is the spray cork? That is the point.Alex2013/11/13   That may stop condensation , but its no comparison with an inch and a half of sprayfoam. Yes, masochists can survive a winter in the ice with such minimal insulation ,but who wants to be a masochist?  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:  The French spray cork inside their aluminum hull (all inside surfaces) and that is very effective against condensation. Some of these aluminum boats have wintered in the ice north of the artic circle. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: If there is a paint against the condensation maybe we could have a "point". That is why I would be courious to know how thw owner of "Andes" solved the problem. But it seems he is not in this group anymore... Alex2013/10/28   I met a couple from BC, in Tonga, who had framed their entire interior in aluminium angle.It rained condensation  continually in cold weather . When they got back to BC they cut it all out. Thermally insulating all such aluminium from the metal hull would considerably reduce the problem, but if you come home to a cold boat and put the heater on, you could have interior parts turn into water makers, until they warmed up a bit. I don't see the point in aluminium interiors ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: In the photo section of the group there is a boat called Andes with the interiors entirely made of alluminium.  Never seen something like that before.They are picture from 2010. Does anybody know if the boat was finished and how was it? How did it solve the problem of condensation? Alex | 30585|30547|2013-11-13 19:18:43|brentswain38|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|I make them 11 inches deep by 26 inches wide ,. I made mine 24 inches wide by 12 inches deep from a 4x8 ft sheet, a mistake, as you can't quite put two 20 lb bottles of propane side by side in it. They are just over 12 inches wide. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Hi Brent,How deep is your cockpit from the seating position?MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-12 à 20:19, brentswain38@... a écrit :    If you don' t have a cockpit where does the junk end up? All over the place . The same can be said about pilot berths  . Without a cockpit, you are climbing that  much higher any time you exit the boat rough conditions.  You are that much higher and more precariously balanced more of the time. There are some rough conditions in rough weather when you have to be in the cockpit, entering  a narrow harbour entrance at night . I'd rather feel more  in the boat than on it. With my cockpit draining thru 2 inch by 6 inch holes in the transom, it drains very quickly .  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:If i may butt in here with my two cents...I personally find cockpits to be an incredible waste of space. My boat has no cockpit and the boat i crossed the Atlantic in neither. Neither did the boat i was brought up on (see the photo in my first post on my blog; http://tangvald.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/so-where-are-you-from/The only time a cockpit can be justified is for a daysailer where everyone is enjoying a little social sail in the cockpit and which is not used for living on. On long passages one spends almost all one's time inside away from the wind, spray, sun which are exhausting. In the harbour, a cockpit usually ends up becoming a sort of catch all for clutter and junk. Sitting  in a well versus sitting on the deck , i cannot see how that can possibly be such an advantage as to justify sacrificing a huge amount of internal living space for.And no cockpit means a significant weight saving plus freeing up the whole stern for a magnificient and comfortable cabin. Plus it is much safer. The boat just sheds any heavy water right off. Even with 'oversize' drains a cockpit that gets filled with water will take some time to empty putting the boat in great danger. With the usual size cockpit drains, it is extremely unseaworthy.  No serious cruising boat should be fitted as is usual for production yachts nowadays, with those little drains on huge cockpits. Thomas    T³Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planet Em Terça-feira, 5 de Novembro de 2013 10:31, martin demers escreveu:   how can you enjoy a sailboat without a cockpit?MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-05 à 08:10, "Thierry Msika" a écrit :   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. Cheers Thierry -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 30586|30547|2013-11-13 19:27:18|brentswain38|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|On bulkheads they work OK  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Do you mean shortening the keel or having a raised deck would reduce the stability? The question is how drastically it would? I am hoping that reducing the draft from say 46 to 36" would be OK. I would compensate for that reduced stability through several measures: a wider and longer keel to accommodate the centerboard and lower the ballast, a plywood deck, a shorter rig and storage in bins instead of on each side of the hull. All that should lower the center of gravity.Would a raised deck reduce the stability? The cabin sides would just be shifted outboard so there shouldn't be any more material thus weight involved. Ultimate stability should actually improve with more deck crown and a raised deck. No?Sitting headroom is useful against the ceiling, side decks get created through the central position of an upturned dinghy located behind the mast in the case of a junk rig and around the dinghy that can be equipped with handrail on its bottom.Interesting idea with the mirrors though I wouldn't know where to put them so that they are not at risk.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Sorry if this question has already been asked. The new group format makes it very difficult for me to do a search. In general the new format is terrible.I am asking if there is a list of plans for the 26 foot design.Is there also an option for the wheelhouse with a plan?I would also change the cabin top to a raised deck, remove the cockpit and put a shallower keel with a centerboard.Thanks | 30587|30547|2013-11-13 19:27:50|martin demers|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|Mine is 32 inches wide by 16 inches deep, I think that originaly there was that kind of wooden  floor in it.I will raise it a few inches, it will add some space under it!Thanks, Martin.Envoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-13 à 19:18, brentswain38@... a écrit :   I make them 11 inches deep by 26 inches wide ,. I made mine 24 inches wide by 12 inches deep from a 4x8 ft sheet, a mistake, as you can't quite put two 20 lb bottles of propane side by side in it. They are just over 12 inches wide. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Hi Brent,How deep is your cockpit from the seating position?MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-12 à 20:19, brentswain38@... a écrit :    If you don' t have a cockpit where does the junk end up? All over the place . The same can be said about pilot berths  . Without a cockpit, you are climbing that  much higher any time you exit the boat rough conditions.  You are that much higher and more precariously balanced more of the time. There are some rough conditions in rough weather when you have to be in the cockpit, entering  a narrow harbour entrance at night . I'd rather feel more  in the boat than on it. With my cockpit draining thru 2 inch by 6 inch holes in the transom, it drains very quickly .  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:If i may butt in here with my two cents...I personally find cockpits to be an incredible waste of space. My boat has no cockpit and the boat i crossed the Atlantic in neither. Neither did the boat i was brought up on (see the photo in my first post on my blog; http://tangvald.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/so-where-are-you-from/The only time a cockpit can be justified is for a daysailer where everyone is enjoying a little social sail in the cockpit and which is not used for living on. On long passages one spends almost all one's time inside away from the wind, spray, sun which are exhausting. In the harbour, a cockpit usually ends up becoming a sort of catch all for clutter and junk. Sitting  in a well versus sitting on the deck , i cannot see how that can possibly be such an advantage as to justify sacrificing a huge amount of internal living space for.And no cockpit means a significant weight saving plus freeing up the whole stern for a magnificient and comfortable cabin. Plus it is much safer. The boat just sheds any heavy water right off. Even with 'oversize' drains a cockpit that gets filled with water will take some time to empty putting the boat in great danger. With the usual size cockpit drains, it is extremely unseaworthy.  No serious cruising boat should be fitted as is usual for production yachts nowadays, with those little drains on huge cockpits. Thomas    T³Boat design solutions for an energy constrained planet Em Terça-feira, 5 de Novembro de 2013 10:31, martin demers escreveu:   how can you enjoy a sailboat without a cockpit?MartinEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-11-05 à 08:10, "Thierry Msika" a écrit :   Thanks James, I had a look already at the Yago. It's too big. What I want is a sort of 26' Wylo for my olden days. I built the 35' 12-15 years ago in the UK (3 years build) but now that the kids are almost all gone it's too big. Also too big to maintain and operate. I still use it for long term cruising and I am sailing to Europe next spring for a year. I hope to pass it on to my daughter. I like the shape and the beam of the BS26 hull and I would put the same sort of cabin sides as on the Yago or on the Wylo also with a plywood deck bolted on a 150x3mm stainless flange. It works well for me. I probably would have no cockpit as on my current boat but definitely a pilot house or some sort of inside steering position and some sort of junk rig, at least junk main. I'd like to slightly reduce the draft to about 3' and have a centerboard to sail to windward. I also like having a centerboard to sail in tight quarters and to feel the bottom. I sail engineless and it's either sailing, sculling or kedging. I like the tankage in the central keel and the possibility to adjust the ballast. Mine is made of 836 2.5kg lead ingots cast in a brick frog. The ballast volumes are sealed off with plywood and epoxy fillets. Another feature important for me would be room for a 8-9' solid dinghy on deck. This is easier with a junk rig. I carry 2 dinghies on the Wylo and they are in use a lot. In any case I wouldn't start on the project before 2 years as I am gone cruising next year. A 26' boat would allow me to launch every year instead of having 2 boats, one for daysailing and one for cruising. Usually the Wylo stays home while I sail an old Shark 24 in the season. The BS26' is a go anywhere boat but small enough to get home on a trailer. I move my Wylo on a waggon between the ramp and home but it's quite an intense operation. Cheers Thierry -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 30588|30547|2013-11-13 19:31:44|brentswain38|Re: List of plans for the 26' design|As the decks take the entire twisting load of  a boat , transitioning from steel to wood at that point would be a huge mistake. It would also be a horrendous place for constant  leaks and rot. Wood is the poorest material for boatbuilding ever used, with greatest number of liabilities . Aluminium or fibreglass would  be a better choice for lighter decks and cabin top.  On my 26 there is plenty of room to  sit upright under the side decks.Its not a Colvin like boat (ie. collection of closets).I am unaware of any of my 26 footers being built in Nova Scotia   ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Do you mean shortening the keel or having a raised deck would reduce the stability? The question is how drastically it would? I am hoping that reducing the draft from say 46 to 36" would be OK. I would compensate for that reduced stability through several measures: a wider and longer keel to accommodate the centerboard and lower the ballast, a plywood deck, a shorter rig and storage in bins instead of on each side of the hull. All that should lower the center of gravity.Would a raised deck reduce the stability? The cabin sides would just be shifted outboard so there shouldn't be any more material thus weight involved. Ultimate stability should actually improve with more deck crown and a raised deck. No?Sitting headroom is useful against the ceiling, side decks get created through the central position of an upturned dinghy located behind the mast in the case of a junk rig and around the dinghy that can be equipped with handrail on its bottom.Interesting idea with the mirrors though I wouldn't know where to put them so that they are not at risk.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Sorry if this question has already been asked. The new group format makes it very difficult for me to do a search. In general the new format is terrible.I am asking if there is a list of plans for the 26 foot design.Is there also an option for the wheelhouse with a plan?I would also change the cabin top to a raised deck, remove the cockpit and put a shallower keel with a centerboard.Thanks | 30589|30547|2013-11-13 21:15:50|Matt Malone|Influencing with Stability| >Do you mean shortening the keel or Shortening the keel without drastically increasing its weight raises the centre of mass of the boat.  The entire point of the keel is to make the boat like a pendulum, wanting to resist moving away from upright.   If you raise the keel enough and put enough garbage at the top of your mast head, like radar and stuff, you can end up with a very tippy boat.   >having >a raised deck would reduce the stability? The >question is how drastically it would? The raised deck has 5 effects:  - It raises the side deck mass, so, it raises the center of gravity, not so much as the keel, because you are not moving as much mass.   - It reduces the number of right angle joins along the length of the boat.  Believe it or not a sheet of corrugated steel is stiffer along the line of the ripples because it has ripples.  If the sheet were flat, it would have to be thicker to be as stiff.  The near-right-angle joins between the hull, side deck, doghouse side, and doghouse top all increase longitudinal bending stiffness, and the effect can be large.  Is it important?  I cannot say. - It increases the resistance to roll at a particular point of roll, probably starting around 75 degrees off-vertical and reaching a peak near 90 degrees off vertical.   Simply put, you are putting more raised volume underwater.   However.... >Would a raised deck reduce the stability? The cabin sides would just be shifted >outboard so there shouldn't be any more material thus weight involved. Ultimate >stability should actually improve with more deck crown and a raised deck. No?- If you think of the stability curve like an energy curve or mountain-shape centered at 180 degrees (upside down) then, upright is the valley at 0 degrees and 360 degrees of roll on either side.   Around 75 degrees to probably about 135 degrees, you are making that mountain taller, requiring more energy to roll the boat that far, and that is good.  But this constitutes the shoulders of the mountain, and you are making it no taller in the center.   What you get is a deeper valley at the peak of the mountain centered at 180 degrees (upside down).   http://quantumtantra.com/PennyGraphK.jpgThis is the general shape of an energy graph for a rolling boat, but it happens to be for a penny (a coin) and they are using it to explain how an electron can get trapped in a semiconductor.   Also, when the penny flips through 180 degrees it looks the same.  A boat has to roll 360 to look the same so don't look at the orientation of the penny and compare it to the orientation of the boat, the angles are doubled.  The state of the boat might be represented by a marble rolling on the surface of such a graph.  Which direction is downhill, and how steep will determine the restoring moment for the penny or a boat.  One can see that a marble might get stuck at the top, in the case of the graph, the penny can stand on its edge, or the boat can remain inverted.   Now all practical boats I know of have such a valley, if perfectly upside down and not disturbed, they will stay upside down indefinitely.   The point is, situations that get you upside down are full of waves that are likely to disturb a well-designed boat out of this valley.   The neutral point or angle of vanishing stability, where the tendency to right becomes a tendancy to capsize is also the angle when recovering from capsided where the tendency to remain capsided turns back into a tendency to right.  The angle of vanishing stability are the peaks of the shoulders on either side of this valley.  Raised decks make climbing the peaks harder, both into and out of the valley at the top.   The boat becomes far more stable upside down and may not come back up even if disturbed.  Here is a graphical reference of restoring moment (related to the slope of the mountain/energy/penny graph) with some numbers:http://sailskills.co.uk/Stability/sailskills_stability_stability_explained_AVS.htmlNote that for an open ocean boat their recommendation is that the angle of vanishing stability be greater than 140 degrees.  That means, out of 360 degrees of roll, for 280 of those degrees, the boat will immediately return to upright.  For only 80 degrees will it tend to go to perfectly inverted.   What is missed in the moment graphs is, the depth of the valley on the top of the energy graph in comparison to the height of the shoulders.  If it takes an energy of 10 to get you up the mountain and inverted and only 1 to get you back out of the hole at the top of the mountain, where the boat will naturally right, it has to be a pretty fluke occurrence that you got inverted that you would not soon pop back upright.   For a catamaran, the valley in the middle is nearly as deep as the shoulders at the angle of vanishing stability, so, they are nearly as stable upside down as right side up.  If it was a rogue wave that got you inverted, you better make yourself comfortable waiting for another rogue wave to help you out of your predicament.  In this way, a catamaran is more like a penny angle for angle, except catamarans do not float on their edge, they will flip either heads up or tails up.  Heads up is so much more fun.There are people who take catamarans on the open ocean, so, why should you worry ?   Because catamarans have a shallow draft, and when met by a steep wave, they can skate sideways down the wave without really biting and flipping.   Your boat will not even have that going for it because it will have a keel.  One can easily make a monohull that will get you into more practical problems than a good cat.           - Lastly, when the boat has side decks and a raised coach or doghouse, and you are on the side decks, you are in an inside corner on the boat.   You can grab rails on the edge of the coach and walk more upright.   If you feel a lack of certainty about your footing you can crouch against the side of the coach.   On a raised flat deck, I would feel I have less redundancy, less to hang on to as I move along the deck.   There would be little use for any stance other than standing or crawling.   Also, when I am on a side deck, the swing of the boom is farther from my feet, I have to crouch less to be under it.   On a raised deck I imagine the boom would swing around waist level, maybe lower, unless you plan to raise the rig as well.   The flat deck boats I have seen like the Columbia II 34 just use the space for taller cabinets, more storage, which just provides the opportunity to put more cargo weight higher, and negatively impact stability.   I actually like the Columbia II 34, nearly bought one, and people have gotten them around the world, so, clearly one can manage if they want to.   If you want more interior space, a longer, well-designed boat is a better bet than a smaller one you have altered and compromised stability.Matt    Sitting headroom is useful against the ceiling, side decks get created through the central position of an upturned dinghy located behind the mast in the case of a junk rig and around the dinghy that can be equipped with handrail on its bottom.Interesting idea with the mirrors though I wouldn't know where to put them so that they are not at risk.  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Sorry if this question has already been asked. The new group format makes it very difficult for me to do a search. In general the new format is terrible.I am asking if there is a list of plans for the 26 foot design.Is there also an option for the wheelhouse with a plan?I would also change the cabin top to a raised deck, remove the cockpit and put a shallower keel with a centerboard.Thanks | 30590|30538|2013-11-19 12:34:45|silascrosby|Re: Silas Crosby, 36' twin-keel Swain for sale|Lots of interest in the Silas Crosby, but nobody sending cash yet.Here is the recent posting on Cruiser's Forum for your interest.http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324-2.html#post1394974The jist of the message is that the price is being reduced to $63,000. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:There was a Swedish guy, Benny , who sent a question to me today about the Silas Crosby for sale, but his message has gone missing. Try again please to: svsilascrosby at gmail dot comAlso see the thread, for more photos, on the Cruiser's forum at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324.htmlSteve ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Here's the ad link: http://silascrosby.com/sail/| 30591|30538|2013-11-19 14:03:02|opuspaul|Re: Silas Crosby, 36' twin-keel Swain for sale|Good luck, Steve.  It is a tough market.I enjoyed you blog.   Do you have any other sailing/boating plans or are you living on shore for awhile?  Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Lots of interest in the Silas Crosby, but nobody sending cash yet.Here is the recent posting on Cruiser's Forum for your interest.http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324-2.html#post1394974The jist of the message is that the price is being reduced to $63,000. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:There was a Swedish guy, Benny , who sent a question to me today about the Silas Crosby for sale, but his message has gone missing. Try again please to: svsilascrosby at gmail dot comAlso see the thread, for more photos, on the Cruiser's forum at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324.htmlSteve ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Here's the ad link: http://silascrosby.com/sail/| 30592|30592|2013-11-19 14:26:51|Ion Huss / Lisa Doughty|26ft plans|How do I get another copy of the boat building book and a set of plans for the BS-26? Ion| 30593|30592|2013-11-19 14:29:23|brentswain38|Re: 26ft plans|For a copy of my  book, please send $20 , plus $5 for Canadian  postage, $8 for US postage, or $15 for overseas airmail postage, to 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V0 . For 26 ft plans , please send $200 to the same address. Thanks ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:How do I get another copy of the boat building book and a set of plans for the BS-26? Ion| 30594|30538|2013-11-19 14:33:38|brentswain38|Re: Silas Crosby, 36' twin-keel Swain for sale|Hell of a deal.  Had  a look at her yesterday. The boat sure doesn't look like it has just been around the Horn and the Aleutians. Any cleaner and she would look fresh out of the boat yard.That Flame spray sure works .  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Lots of interest in the Silas Crosby, but nobody sending cash yet.Here is the recent posting on Cruiser's Forum for your interest.http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324-2.html#post1394974The jist of the message is that the price is being reduced to $63,000. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:There was a Swedish guy, Benny , who sent a question to me today about the Silas Crosby for sale, but his message has gone missing. Try again please to: svsilascrosby at gmail dot comAlso see the thread, for more photos, on the Cruiser's forum at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324.htmlSteve ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Here's the ad link: http://silascrosby.com/sail/| 30595|30538|2013-11-21 16:28:52|silascrosby|Re: Silas Crosby, 36' twin-keel Swain for sale|Paul , don't laugh, but the plan is to get an F-27 folding tri once Silas Crosby is sold.In the winter it can go in the garden on a trailer, or we can zip down to Baja by road and cruise the Sea of Cortez, or by trailer to Homer,Ak and explore the Alaska Peninsula some more. Actually what I'm really excited about is trying to go to Haida Gwaii, N coast of BC, and the West Coast of V.I. on such a craft. I can see that a smaller Jordan drogue used carefully could really extend the abilities of such a marginal sea-going vessel. Plus, what a gas to sail.I'll have to consult with Brent about a REALLY compact wood heaterOf course I still would get the shallow water and beaching abilities, with a little more care and consideration than on my present boat.However ,yes, it means saying good-bye for the time being to big open ocean scenarios. No regrets so far.Gotta have a plan,right?cheers , steve ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Good luck, Steve.  It is a tough market.I enjoyed you blog.   Do you have any other sailing/boating plans or are you living on shore for awhile?  Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Lots of interest in the Silas Crosby, but nobody sending cash yet.Here is the recent posting on Cruiser's Forum for your interest.http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324-2.html#post1394974The jist of the message is that the price is being reduced to $63,000. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:There was a Swedish guy, Benny , who sent a question to me today about the Silas Crosby for sale, but his message has gone missing. Try again please to: svsilascrosby at gmail dot comAlso see the thread, for more photos, on the Cruiser's forum at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324.htmlSteve ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Here's the ad link: http://silascrosby.com/sail/| 30596|30538|2013-11-22 18:14:00|brentswain38|Re: Silas Crosby, 36' twin-keel Swain for sale|Talk t\o Rick and Gary. Being on a fibreglass boat in cool weather is like being inside   fast melting block of ice  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Paul , don't laugh, but the plan is to get an F-27 folding tri once Silas Crosby is sold.In the winter it can go in the garden on a trailer, or we can zip down to Baja by road and cruise the Sea of Cortez, or by trailer to Homer,Ak and explore the Alaska Peninsula some more. Actually what I'm really excited about is trying to go to Haida Gwaii, N coast of BC, and the West Coast of V.I. on such a craft. I can see that a smaller Jordan drogue used carefully could really extend the abilities of such a marginal sea-going vessel. Plus, what a gas to sail.I'll have to consult with Brent about a REALLY compact wood heaterOf course I still would get the shallow water and beaching abilities, with a little more care and consideration than on my present boat.However ,yes, it means saying good-bye for the time being to big open ocean scenarios. No regrets so far.Gotta have a plan,right?cheers , steve ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Good luck, Steve.  It is a tough market.I enjoyed you blog.   Do you have any other sailing/boating plans or are you living on shore for awhile?  Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Lots of interest in the Silas Crosby, but nobody sending cash yet.Here is the recent posting on Cruiser's Forum for your interest.http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324-2.html#post1394974The jist of the message is that the price is being reduced to $63,000. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:There was a Swedish guy, Benny , who sent a question to me today about the Silas Crosby for sale, but his message has gone missing. Try again please to: svsilascrosby at gmail dot comAlso see the thread, for more photos, on the Cruiser's forum at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324.htmlSteve ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Here's the ad link: http://silascrosby.com/sail/| 30597|30538|2013-11-22 21:40:40|Brian Stannard|Re: Silas Crosby, 36' twin-keel Swain for sale|Not if it is foam cored as the F-27 is. On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 3:14 PM, wrote:   Talk t\o Rick and Gary. Being on a fibreglass boat in cool weather is like being inside   fast melting block of ice  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Paul , don't laugh, but the plan is to get an F-27 folding tri once Silas Crosby is sold. In the winter it can go in the garden on a trailer, or we can zip down to Baja by road and cruise the Sea of Cortez, or by trailer to Homer,Ak and explore the Alaska Peninsula some more. Actually what I'm really excited about is trying to go to Haida Gwaii, N coast of BC, and the West Coast of V.I. on such a craft. I can see that a smaller Jordan drogue used carefully could really extend the abilities of such a marginal sea-going vessel. Plus, what a gas to sail. I'll have to consult with Brent about a REALLY compact wood heater Of course I still would get the shallow water and beaching abilities, with a little more care and consideration than on my present boat. However ,yes, it means saying good-bye for the time being to big open ocean scenarios. No regrets so far. Gotta have a plan,right? cheers , steve ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Good luck, Steve.  It is a tough market.I enjoyed you blog.   Do you have any other sailing/boating plans or are you living on shore for awhile?  Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Lots of interest in the Silas Crosby, but nobody sending cash yet. Here is the recent posting on Cruiser's Forum for your interest.http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324-2.html#post1394974 The jist of the message is that the price is being reduced to $63,000. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:There was a Swedish guy, Benny , who sent a question to me today about the Silas Crosby for sale, but his message has gone missing. Try again please to: svsilascrosby at gmail dot com Also see the thread, for more photos, on the Cruiser's forum at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324.html Steve ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Here's the ad link: http://silascrosby.com/sail/ -- CheersBrian | 30598|30538|2013-11-23 18:16:48|brentswain38|Re: Silas Crosby, 36' twin-keel Swain for sale|Where there is foam core it is OK. Where the foam core turns to solid glass the solid glass will draw enough heat  away to make it drip like a faucet in cold weather, as will any stainless thru bolts. All such points have to  be insulated . ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Not if it is foam cored as the F-27 is. On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 3:14 PM, wrote:   Talk t\o Rick and Gary. Being on a fibreglass boat in cool weather is like being inside   fast melting block of ice  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Paul , don't laugh, but the plan is to get an F-27 folding tri once Silas Crosby is sold. In the winter it can go in the garden on a trailer, or we can zip down to Baja by road and cruise the Sea of Cortez, or by trailer to Homer,Ak and explore the Alaska Peninsula some more. Actually what I'm really excited about is trying to go to Haida Gwaii, N coast of BC, and the West Coast of V.I. on such a craft. I can see that a smaller Jordan drogue used carefully could really extend the abilities of such a marginal sea-going vessel. Plus, what a gas to sail. I'll have to consult with Brent about a REALLY compact wood heater Of course I still would get the shallow water and beaching abilities, with a little more care and consideration than on my present boat. However ,yes, it means saying good-bye for the time being to big open ocean scenarios. No regrets so far. Gotta have a plan,right? cheers , steve ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Good luck, Steve.  It is a tough market.I enjoyed you blog.   Do you have any other sailing/boating plans or are you living on shore for awhile?  Cheers, Paul ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:Lots of interest in the Silas Crosby, but nobody sending cash yet. Here is the recent posting on Cruiser's Forum for your interest.http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324-2.html#post1394974 The jist of the message is that the price is being reduced to $63,000. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:There was a Swedish guy, Benny , who sent a question to me today about the Silas Crosby for sale, but his message has gone missing. Try again please to: svsilascrosby at gmail dot com Also see the thread, for more photos, on the Cruiser's forum at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f64/36-steel-sailboat-cape-horn-vet-114324.html Steve ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Here's the ad link: http://silascrosby.com/sail/ -- CheersBrian | 30599|29941|2013-11-28 21:23:15|martin demers|Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc|does such a company exist in Canada?Envoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-03-18 à 15:14, "Pris Sail" a écrit :   Are you a US citizen?  If so Florida and Nevada are the only states that I know of where you can be a resident and not live there.  Lots of cruisers (and other transients like traveling nurses and people living in motor homes) "live" at SBI.  It is a real dirt address, accepted for your drivers license, insurance, banks, etc., and since you will be a resident of Green Cove Springs you will be registered to vote there (thank goodness for absentee ballots).  Florida has no income taxes. SBI has all the paperwork online to become a FL resident, and they will help you with it.  You have to get your own drivers license and go to FL to do that in person.  Everything else - I became a FL resident without going to FL, I've never even been to Green Cove Springs.  For a fee, SBI will scan your envelopes, open your mail and scan the contents, pay your bills, pretty much anything you need while traveling they do it.  All their services are on the link R. Jason provided. Even if your boat is documented, FL (and several other states) require that you pay for FL registration if your boat is in the state for more than three months. SBI is an outstanding company and service, I've been "living" there for five years.  And what a relief to finally have a permanent "home", I've moved nine times in the past five years and never had to change my address. There is a similar service in Nevada, but you have to physically go there to become a resident, you can't do it by mail and online.  I think NV also has no income taxes. ________________________________ From: R. Jason Adams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat registration in US - fedral vs state, Taxes, etc Hello, Check out http://www.sbimailservice.com/ We used them while cruising and the service was great. It's such a nice service that we kept our mail going there after we returned. -R. Jason Adams On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 4:04 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > ** > > > Is there some well established companies for such services? What most > cruisers use? I heard about some companies which will forward your mail > (images) over e-mail. Is it correct? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]   | 30600|30600|2013-11-29 16:42:49|brentswain38|Searches|Does anyone know if it is possible  to search a subject here? I was hoping to find the video of the comparison between sailing from inside a wheelhouse in rough weather, to sailing without one, which someone posted here a while back..| 30601|30600|2013-11-29 16:44:15|M.J. Malone|Re: Searches| I have found google effective if I choose the search carefully. Matt brentswain38@... wrote:   Does anyone know if it is possible  to search a subject here? I was hoping to find the video of the comparison between sailing from inside a wheelhouse in rough weather, to sailing without one, which someone posted here a while back.. | 30602|14381|2013-11-29 20:26:37|Darren Bos|Searches| Hi Brent, I think this is the message you are looking for.  I've kept all the messages in a folder since I joined the group and Thunderbird lets me search them in most ways imaginable. Darren -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [origamiboats] Southern Atlantic Sailing video Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:02:44 +0000 From: kwing175 Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Oh, here contrast the view from the pilothouse here, vs. the other vid > of the guys outside in the weather..leaves little room for question > seems to me.. > > href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=WxEFN2READI&mode=related&search=">http://youtube. com/watch? v=WxEFN2READI& mode=related& search= > I spent a month on the pictured vessel sailing from Puerto Williams Chile to the Antartic pennesula and back. Great Crew, Capt. Steve (now owns his own boat for high latitude expeditions, http://www.xplore- expeditions. com/1-15991- The- yacht.php), Dave the mate and, Karen (at the helm in the video). All from New Zealand or Australia. Great, great, people to sail with. Vessel: Pelagic Australis, Owned by Skip Novak. Ocean racer, mountain climber, adventurer, author. Take a look at his Pelagic Expedtions web page, http://www.pelagic. co.uk/masterfram e_fleet.htm. Pelagic Australis is the realizaion of Skip's experience after three or four round the world races in the southern oceans, 20 years of leading expeditions in high latitude sailing and, his love of mountain climbing in high latitudes. Skip's concepts were executed by naval architect Tony Castro, http://www.tonycast ro.co.uk/ projectsarticle. php?id=36 The vessel was built in South Africa. Pelagic Australis is aluminum. Skip's first expedition boat, Pelagic, is steel. Not cheap, first class, but what an experience. The video is representative of the comfort in which we sailed. A life changing experience. Keith | 30603|30603|2013-11-30 07:25:06|inter4905|removable cockpit floor|Did anyone had the idea of installing a removable cockpit floor? my boat has limited acces under the cockpit , so having a removable cockpit floor would ease maintenance when acces needed in that area. I was thinking of welding a 90 deg angle bar all around the bottom of the cocpit and bolting the floor plate on top of it all around, my concern is how to seal the plate so it is completely water tight. Martin| 30604|30603|2013-12-01 17:09:26|Mark Hamill|Re: removable cockpit floor| The access to the area under my cockpit floor was bad so I removed the front of the box that was there divided it with a shelf and added an easily removeable front to the box with ventilation vents and put two tanks in the top area with a small storage area under for engine parts and oil etc. MarkH| 30605|30603|2013-12-01 17:45:27|opuspaul|Re: removable cockpit floor|It is done on a lot of large boats with center cockpits.   You may find it more work than it is worth.  The seams will collect dirt and be a pain to clean so I wouldn't do it unless it is really needed.If I did it, I would make sure it is all trimmed in stainless steel.  You will end up with a rust trap otherwise when the paint gets chipped.   Don't rely on just a seal.  Make it like any other hatch with a raised lip and a rubber bedded seal.   You will need some kind of solid way to hold the lid down that holds the hatch down securely on the seal and won't let go in a rollover or knockdown. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: The access to the area under my cockpit floor was bad so I removed the front of the box that was there divided it with a shelf and added an easily removeable front to the box with ventilation vents and put two tanks in the top area with a small storage area under for engine parts and oil etc. MarkH| 30606|30603|2013-12-01 17:50:06|martin demers|Re: removable cockpit floor|I thought of welding a 90 deg thick angle bar all around the bottom of the cockpit with some nuts welded under it at each bolt hole and screw the floor plate over itEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-12-01 à 17:45, opusnz@... a écrit :   It is done on a lot of large boats with center cockpits.   You may find it more work than it is worth.  The seams will collect dirt and be a pain to clean so I wouldn't do it unless it is really needed.If I did it, I would make sure it is all trimmed in stainless steel.  You will end up with a rust trap otherwise when the paint gets chipped.   Don't rely on just a seal.  Make it like any other hatch with a raised lip and a rubber bedded seal.   You will need some kind of solid way to hold the lid down that holds the hatch down securely on the seal and won't let go in a rollover or knockdown. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: The access to the area under my cockpit floor was bad so I removed the front of the box that was there divided it with a shelf and added an easily removeable front to the box with ventilation vents and put two tanks in the top area with a small storage area under for engine parts and oil etc. MarkH | 30607|30603|2013-12-02 05:50:33|Richard Payne|Re: removable cockpit floor|Ours is basically a flat plate bolted down on a gasket. Never leaked. Plenty of stainless bolts (about one every 4"), nylon washers under the flat washers, and lots of butyl mastic sealant. Admittedly after 25 years there was some rust so I took it off and had it hot dip galvanized. At the same time we renewed the engine mounts and cleaned the diesel tank. An easy task to lift the motor (Yanmar 3JH) out with a halyard and two part tackle. One of the keys is to have the plate and the floor it bolts to thick enough so it does not distort when bolted down. Ours is 3/16 and it bolts down onto 1/4 flat bar.Once it is covered with a floor or mat, it should be well protected.  Regards,Richard.  | 30608|30603|2013-12-02 07:12:34|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: removable cockpit floor|Why not build a cockpit-floor with hinges, a gasket and some sort of adjustable lock to ensure it's watertight fit?On a few of the GRP-Boats we had to cut open to get an engine or gen-set out for an overhaul, we re-assembled the cut-out floor as a sort of trunk-lid, in one or several pieces.That worked out regularly well / tight with a torsion prevention like a welded aluminium frame as a "gasket layer" for a rubber gasket; we laminated the frames to the wobbling former floor/sides, and a matching one to the bulkheads and / or remaining sides we would have left from cutting. In one case the new "trunk lid" included one half of the floor and one side of the cockpit-well, which afterwards opened as one piece swinging around hinges in the middle of the cockpit floor. (I found the opening radius to big, but owner was very happy with it, for that opening afterwards enabled him to properly service his newly overhauled genset for the first time at all ....) I suppose a well working sort of thus an arrangement would be easily installable with steel/stainless construction, even easier when building from scratch.The con: You have no more inert hull-deck-unit (less problem when building new, forces can be distributed better to get/keep a "sound" and seaworthy  construction in terms of torsion and load changes), and You will have quite an amount of gasket-area to maintain, what might be an obstacle to "openings-in-the-hull-generally-ruin-any-seaworthyness" -orthodoxians ....G_BAm 02.12.2013 um 11:50 schrieb Richard Payne:   Ours is basically a flat plate bolted down on a gasket. Never leaked. Plenty of stainless bolts (about one every 4"), nylon washers under the flat washers, and lots of butyl mastic sealant. Admittedly after 25 years there was some rust so I took it off and had it hot dip galvanized. At the same time we renewed the engine mounts and cleaned the diesel tank. An easy task to lift the motor (Yanmar 3JH) out with a halyard and two part tackle. One of the keys is to have the plate and the floor it bolts to thick enough so it does not distort when bolted down. Ours is 3/16 and it bolts down onto 1/4 flat bar.Once it is covered with a floor or mat, it should be well protected.  Regards,Richard.   | 30609|30603|2013-12-02 10:06:00|Matt Malone|Re: removable cockpit floor| This is a floor right ?  When things are not going perfectly, stuff might end up here, like the tail of spilled running lines that might be prone to tangle or catch on latches or fasteners.   Having a smoother floor leaves less invitation to problems.   Also, one has to walk on the floor, and the cockpit is a work space.  I find projections, catches, and trips underfoot in a work area very tiring.   If there were a reason, like I located the engine under the cockpit (accessed once every few years), then, I might consider dozens of acorn head nuts placed close to the inside corner which is the perimeter of the cockpit floor, where I am less inconvenienced.  If I wanted it more accessible. I would consider a smaller, raised steel hatch with a frame on its perimeter, and a rubber seal, with secure fastenings all around the perimeter (no hinge), and then fix a grating on top that I actually stand on.   The volume below the grating and around the perimeter of the hatch would become a slice to the cockpit drains likely making for a dryer cockpit floor.   I am likely to lose little things under the grating, but, I balance that against a hatch I might want to open once every few weeks, and a work area I want to be comfortable walking around and standing in all the time.I would recommend making a model of your hatch and putting it down on the floor where you stand to work at a work bench and see if the fasteners/latches/hinges are projections that fatigue you when you stand on them and work at the work bench.     MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: giuseppe.bergman@...Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 13:12:19 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: removable cockpit floor   Why not build a cockpit-floor with hinges, a gasket and some sort of adjustable lock to ensure it's watertight fit?On a few of the GRP-Boats we had to cut open to get an engine or gen-set out for an overhaul, we re-assembled the cut-out floor as a sort of trunk-lid, in one or several pieces.That worked out regularly well / tight with a torsion prevention like a welded aluminium frame as a "gasket layer" for a rubber gasket; we laminated the frames to the wobbling former floor/sides, and a matching one to the bulkheads and / or remaining sides we would have left from cutting. In one case the new "trunk lid" included one half of the floor and one side of the cockpit-well, which afterwards opened as one piece swinging around hinges in the middle of the cockpit floor. (I found the opening radius to big, but owner was very happy with it, for that opening afterwards enabled him to properly service his newly overhauled genset for the first time at all ....) I suppose a well working sort of thus an arrangement would be easily installable with steel/stainless construction, even easier when building from scratch.The con: You have no more inert hull-deck-unit (less problem when building new, forces can be distributed better to get/keep a "sound" and seaworthy  construction in terms of torsion and load changes), and You will have quite an amount of gasket-area to maintain, what might be an obstacle to "openings-in-the-hull-generally-ruin-any-seaworthyness" -orthodoxians ....G_BAm 02.12.2013 um 11:50 schrieb Richard Payne:   Ours is basically a flat plate bolted down on a gasket. Never leaked. Plenty of stainless bolts (about one every 4"), nylon washers under the flat washers, and lots of butyl mastic sealant. Admittedly after 25 years there was some rust so I took it off and had it hot dip galvanized. At the same time we renewed the engine mounts and cleaned the diesel tank. An easy task to lift the motor (Yanmar 3JH) out with a halyard and two part tackle. One of the keys is to have the plate and the floor it bolts to thick enough so it does not distort when bolted down. Ours is 3/16 and it bolts down onto 1/4 flat bar.Once it is covered with a floor or mat, it should be well protected.  Regards,Richard.   | 30610|30603|2013-12-02 16:40:16|brentswain38|Re: removable cockpit floor|Leaks are a huge potential problem . Also, the more corners and little nooks and crannies the more maintenance problems you will have unless all the nooks and crannies are made of stainless."Keep it simple" minimizes maintenance on a steel boat  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: This is a floor right ?  When things are not going perfectly, stuff might end up here, like the tail of spilled running lines that might be prone to tangle or catch on latches or fasteners.   Having a smoother floor leaves less invitation to problems.   Also, one has to walk on the floor, and the cockpit is a work space.  I find projections, catches, and trips underfoot in a work area very tiring.   If there were a reason, like I located the engine under the cockpit (accessed once every few years), then, I might consider dozens of acorn head nuts placed close to the inside corner which is the perimeter of the cockpit floor, where I am less inconvenienced.  If I wanted it more accessible. I would consider a smaller, raised steel hatch with a frame on its perimeter, and a rubber seal, with secure fastenings all around the perimeter (no hinge), and then fix a grating on top that I actually stand on.   The volume below the grating and around the perimeter of the hatch would become a slice to the cockpit drains likely making for a dryer cockpit floor.   I am likely to lose little things under the grating, but, I balance that against a hatch I might want to open once every few weeks, and a work area I want to be comfortable walking around and standing in all the time.I would recommend making a model of your hatch and putting it down on the floor where you stand to work at a work bench and see if the fasteners/latches/hinges are projections that fatigue you when you stand on them and work at the work bench.     MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: giuseppe.bergman@...Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 13:12:19 +0100Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: removable cockpit floor   Why not build a cockpit-floor with hinges, a gasket and some sort of adjustable lock to ensure it's watertight fit?On a few of the GRP-Boats we had to cut open to get an engine or gen-set out for an overhaul, we re-assembled the cut-out floor as a sort of trunk-lid, in one or several pieces.That worked out regularly well / tight with a torsion prevention like a welded aluminium frame as a "gasket layer" for a rubber gasket; we laminated the frames to the wobbling former floor/sides, and a matching one to the bulkheads and / or remaining sides we would have left from cutting. In one case the new "trunk lid" included one half of the floor and one side of the cockpit-well, which afterwards opened as one piece swinging around hinges in the middle of the cockpit floor. (I found the opening radius to big, but owner was very happy with it, for that opening afterwards enabled him to properly service his newly overhauled genset for the first time at all ....) I suppose a well working sort of thus an arrangement would be easily installable with steel/stainless construction, even easier when building from scratch.The con: You have no more inert hull-deck-unit (less problem when building new, forces can be distributed better to get/keep a "sound" and seaworthy  construction in terms of torsion and load changes), and You will have quite an amount of gasket-area to maintain, what might be an obstacle to "openings-in-the-hull-generally-ruin-any-seaworthyness" -orthodoxians ....G_BAm 02.12.2013 um 11:50 schrieb Richard Payne:   Ours is basically a flat plate bolted down on a gasket. Never leaked. Plenty of stainless bolts (about one every 4"), nylon washers under the flat washers, and lots of butyl mastic sealant. Admittedly after 25 years there was some rust so I took it off and had it hot dip galvanized. At the same time we renewed the engine mounts and cleaned the diesel tank. An easy task to lift the motor (Yanmar 3JH) out with a halyard and two part tackle. One of the keys is to have the plate and the floor it bolts to thick enough so it does not distort when bolted down. Ours is 3/16 and it bolts down onto 1/4 flat bar.Once it is covered with a floor or mat, it should be well protected.  Regards,Richard.   | 30611|14381|2013-12-02 18:36:44|brentswain38|Re: Searches|What was the date of that video posting ?Thanks ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi Brent, I think this is the message you are looking for.  I've kept all the messages in a folder since I joined the group and Thunderbird lets me search them in most ways imaginable. Darren -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [origamiboats] Southern Atlantic Sailing video Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:02:44 +0000 From: kwing175 Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Oh, here contrast the view from the pilothouse here, vs. the other vid > of the guys outside in the weather..leaves little room for question > seems to me.. > > href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=WxEFN2READI&mode=related&search=">http://youtube. com/watch? v=WxEFN2READI& mode=related& search= > I spent a month on the pictured vessel sailing from Puerto Williams Chile to the Antartic pennesula and back. Great Crew, Capt. Steve (now owns his own boat for high latitude expeditions, http://www.xplore- expeditions. com/1-15991- The- yacht.php), Dave the mate and, Karen (at the helm in the video). All from New Zealand or Australia. Great, great, people to sail with. Vessel: Pelagic Australis, Owned by Skip Novak. Ocean racer, mountain climber, adventurer, author. Take a look at his Pelagic Expedtions web page, http://www.pelagic. co.uk/masterfram e_fleet.htm. Pelagic Australis is the realizaion of Skip's experience after three or four round the world races in the southern oceans, 20 years of leading expeditions in high latitude sailing and, his love of mountain climbing in high latitudes. Skip's concepts were executed by naval architect Tony Castro, http://www.tonycast ro.co.uk/ projectsarticle. php?id=36 The vessel was built in South Africa. Pelagic Australis is aluminum. Skip's first expedition boat, Pelagic, is steel. Not cheap, first class, but what an experience. The video is representative of the comfort in which we sailed. A life changing experience. Keith | 30612|30612|2013-12-02 18:41:28|inter4905|5 inches dismeter steel tube mast|Hi Brent, How long maximum do you think we can go when making a mast out of 5 inches diameter 1/8 thick steel tube? Martin| 30613|30603|2013-12-03 03:57:56|Giuseppe Bergman|Re: removable cockpit floor|Am 02.12.2013 um 16:05 schrieb Matt Malone: I would recommend making a model of your hatch and putting it down on the floor where you stand to work at a work bench and see if the fasteners/latches/hinges are projections that fatigue you when you stand on them and work at the work bench.     Good point.In my case, though, this wouldn't generate much of bright gnosis concerning the tiring character of the very chosen construction of hinges, I'm afraid.Usually working out of a van-and-trailer setup with different customer's boats, vintage cars or classic houses at their places, between the foldout vice, trailer drawers and the take-away folding circular saw I might stand on gravel, grass, concrete or pavement, all in one week;I suppose I stand on foreign people's lawns and slip-roads twenty times more often than behind the domestic workbench (which isn't much more than two heavily ballasted vintage kitchen counters under the two-by storage in the garage anyway);these differing floorings are not more tiring to me than the variety of diy-solutions from glue-all and duct-tape Mr average desk-worker usually tried out before calling for somebody else to bring a bit of mere physics together with professional bonding chemistry on the way to his aimed-at goal. And sailing I usually go on differing boats either, a fate all boatbuilders/sailmakers/shipwrghts share as far as I know, and so I see a variety of the industrial fashions the marketing branches of the (european) yacht industry invented in the last decades, ambitious inventions partly, often made without thinking about asking an engineer or even a carpenter or a sailmaker, not to mention a (really sailing) sailor, which degrades a lot of those ambitious inventions (in-mast-furling for example) to ridiculous absurdities of some sort when in everyday use for years.But trying out real measure dummies from scrap wood or card board for some days before welding together all the high end ideas just to recognize afterwards that those ideas were only halfway thought through is generally a good point, also for heads, pantries and staterooms, the more so, the stricter Your elbowroom is confined, and don't forget that heeling on a sailing yacht when planning, with dummies or without ...Customized solutions always need more of a personally chiseled fine tuning than readymades from Your general marine chandlery, and yachts do have to combine so many differing requirements that there will never be THE only golden way to enlightment together with a sailing boat.0,02 ct  G_B| 30614|30603|2013-12-03 15:47:09|brentswain38|Re: removable cockpit floor|Mark if it is almost impossible to get at your engine any other way it may be justified, but in your boat a removeable cockpit floor would make no sense.| 30615|30612|2013-12-03 16:05:57|brentswain38|Re: 5 inches dismeter steel tube mast|How tall do you plan to go? For a 5/1/2inch od 46 ft was about the limit.| 30616|30612|2013-12-03 16:07:10|martin demers|Re: 5 inches dismeter steel tube mast|Around 35 ft. Envoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-12-03 à 16:06, brentswain38@... a écrit :   How tall do you plan to go? For a 5/1/2inch od 46 ft was about the limit. | 30617|30617|2013-12-04 22:35:09|jpronk1|Trim tab/rudder|Almost done my rudder but I think I might have made my trim tab too big? It is almost as long as the trailing edge of the rudder. Will this be too much resistance for the wind vane? I will post photos tomorrow. Thank you, James| 30618|30617|2013-12-04 23:05:56|Matt Malone|Re: Trim tab/rudder| It seems to me that if the tab is bigger, a given sized wind vane deflects it less, but, the force created by the tab, the deflection of the rudder, might be the same.   One can always increase the size of the wind vane to the degree there is some variation.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: jpronk1@...Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 19:35:04 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Trim tab/rudder   Almost done my rudder but I think I might have made my trim tab too big? It is almost as long as the trailing edge of the rudder. Will this be too much resistance for the wind vane? I will post photos tomorrow. Thank you, James | 30619|30617|2013-12-05 10:47:16|James Pronk|Re: Trim tab/rudder|Thanks MattI think the best way would be to build the rest of the boat and try it out!I was not sure where to put the top pintle? Do I put it on the top of the rudder or do I put the pintle at a height that the gudgeon is welded on to the transom where the cockpit floor meets the transom? Will it matter?Thank you,James From: Matt Malone ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Trim tab/rudder Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 4:05:55 AM   It seems to me that if the tab is bigger, a given sized wind vane deflects it less, but, the force created by the tab, the deflection of the rudder, might be the same.   One can always increase the size of the wind vane to the degree there is some variation.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: jpronk1@...Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 19:35:04 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Trim tab/rudder   Almost done my rudder but I think I might have made my trim tab too big? It is almost as long as the trailing edge of the rudder. Will this be too much resistance for the wind vane? I will post photos tomorrow. Thank you, James | 30620|30617|2013-12-05 19:28:29|brentswain38|Re: Trim tab/rudder|Almost as long as the trailing edge of the rudder, by about 5 inches wide,  is fine, as long as it is a few inches up from the bottom, so it wont get damaged when you dry out.| 30621|30612|2013-12-05 19:29:21|brentswain38|Re: 5 inches dismeter steel tube mast|Around 35 feet, it should be no problem.| 30622|30612|2013-12-05 19:35:37|martin demers|Re: 5 inches dismeter steel tube mast|Ok, thanksEnvoyé de mon iPhoneLe 2013-12-05 à 19:29, brentswain38@... a écrit :   Around 35 feet, it should be no problem. | 30623|30623|2013-12-27 16:08:29|brentswain38|closed cell canned foam|While most sprayfoam which comes in a can is porous, and absorbs water like a sponge, Marcel told me of one called " Tytan "which is far more closed cell, and far less water absorbent. He said you can buy it at Lowes  in the US,  but I haven't seen any here in Canada. Does anyone know of a Canadian source of the stuff?I'm thinking of filling the space between inside panelling and existing foam with canned sprayfoam, for super insulation. | 30624|30623|2013-12-28 00:08:57|wild_explorer|Re: closed cell canned foam|I do not see any on US Lowes website, but it is available in Canada. I do not know what type of foam you referring to. There are several types: http://www.selenacanada.com/cms/?__page_id=340 Some are available from lowes.ca http://www.lowes.ca/tytan-professional-foam-insulation_15216_m14689.html?rd=A Some items may not be available in stores - you need to order it (and pay in advance to be delivered in store). Another brand which might work: http://www.lowes.ca/foam-insulation/touch-n-foam-polyurethane-foam-10-cylinder_g1377643.html --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > While most sprayfoam which comes in a can is porous, and absorbs water like a sponge, Marcel told me of one called " Tytan "which is far more closed cell, and far less water absorbent. He said you can buy it at Lowes in the US, but I haven't seen any here in Canada. Does anyone know of a Canadian source of the stuff? > I'm thinking of filling the space between inside panelling and existing foam with canned sprayfoam, for super insulation. > | 30625|30623|2013-12-29 18:30:37|brentswain38|Re: closed cell canned foam|ThanksI stand corrected . Marcel said it is available at a Loews Store in New Westminster BC. I have been told that they have other storeds across Canada. I don't know exactly which type is the most closed cell.| 30626|30623|2014-01-01 21:36:52|badpirate36|Re: closed cell canned foam|Lowes in New westminster sells touch & foam products in small cans, one part canisters and larger 2 part polyurethane canisters. the larger two are sold as system 200 or 600 spray foam (200/600 board feet $383/$789) although there is not very much information on the box, it does state that it is closed cell, and class 1 fire resitant and included a toll free phone number for iformation or inquiries 1-800-325-6180 ext 208I hope this helpsTom| 30627|30623|2014-01-04 17:15:07|garyhlucas|Re: closed cell canned foam| McMaster Carr sells what looks to be the same stuff for slightly more money.  However McMaster has some pretty low shipping costs so it might work out about even.   From: badpirate@... Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 9:36 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: closed cell canned foam     Lowes in New westminster sells touch & foam products in small cans, one part canisters and larger 2 part polyurethane canisters. the larger two are sold as system 200 or 600 spray foam (200/600 board feet $383/$789) although there is not very much information on the box, it does state that it is closed cell, and class 1 fire resitant and included a toll free phone number for iformation or inquiries 1-800-325-6180 ext 208 I hope this helps Tom| 30628|30628|2014-01-13 16:47:23|kid_shilleen|Midnight Gambler|I saw an ad on Sailboatsforsale.com a while back about this boat. I'm wondering if it is one of Brent's designs. The photos are a few years old, and the vessel is on the hard in Charleston marina at Coos Bay. The fore mast was sold, and the main has some rot. I have seen the boat from the ground, but not the inside. I may be able to purchase her for very reasonable money. The prop was sold also, and they simply cut the prop shaft to get it. Not much else is known about it. She needs lots of paint and TLC. The interior photos look like the workmanshipwas done by a layman, not a professional. Any opinions or insight about it?http://www.flickr.com/photos/36583896@N07/3374447602/in/photostream/| 30629|30628|2014-01-13 16:55:24|Matt Malone|Re: Midnight Gambler| I would guess it is not a Brent boat.  I see two hard chines that go to the bow.  Brent's have one chine and it is where the origami sheet is stitched back together.   Matt  From: kid_shilleen@...To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 22:23:51 -0800Subject: [origamiboats] Midnight Gambler   I saw an ad on Sailboatsforsale.com a while back about this boat. I'm wondering if it is one of Brent's designs. The photos are a few years old, and the vessel is on the hard in Charleston marina at Coos Bay. The fore mast was sold, and the main has some rot. I have seen the boat from the ground, but not the inside. I may be able to purchase her for very reasonable money. The prop was sold also, and they simply cut the prop shaft to get it. Not much else is known about it. She needs lots of paint and TLC. The interior photos look like the workmanshipwas done by a layman, not a professional. Any opinions or insight about it?http://www.flickr.com/photos/36583896@N07/3374447602/in/photostream/ | 30630|30628|2014-01-13 16:55:27|Paul Thompson|Re: Midnight Gambler|Definitely not one of  Brent's designs. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 7:23 PM, wrote: I saw an ad on Sailboatsforsale.com a while back about this boat. I'm wondering if it is one of Brent's designs. The photos are a few years old, and the vessel is on the hard in Charleston marina at Coos Bay. The fore mast was sold, and the main has some rot. I have seen the boat from the ground, but not the inside. I may be able to purchase her for very reasonable money. The prop was sold also, and they simply cut the prop shaft to get it. Not much else is known about it. She needs lots of paint and TLC. The interior photos look like the workmanshipwas done by a layman, not a professional. Any opinions or insight about it?http://www.flickr.com/photos/36583896@N07/3374447602/in/photostream/ -- Regards,Paul Thompson | 30631|30628|2014-01-14 09:23:26|ka0tp|Re: Midnight Gambler| I have seen that on the Web for about 4+ years now. I think it is the older  Bruce Roberts 50 design as a Twin Keeler.   Lines and the chines match up with the BR boats I've seen on the Hard at Astoria.    | 30632|30628|2014-01-14 17:37:16|brentswain38|Re: Midnight Gambler|It is definitely not one of mine. I would never put such sharp leading edges on a keel. It causes severe stalling at small angles of leeway, a common mistake on Roberts designs. I don't do multi chine and the ends of my boats have no chine, and are conic. I would never do a schooner, a hair brained rig .| 30633|30628|2014-01-15 02:07:06|Chris Harnan|Re: Midnight Gambler|Brent  I am a passive member of this group and admit to coming from the ‘dark side’ as I have a Wylo gaff cutter.  I have found your comments over the years well informed and very sensible, and clearly you know what you are talking about.  It was therefore a major shock to see that you describe the schooner rig as ‘hair brained’. This is my dream rig for a larger boat and I would be most interested in why you have that view. I may have to rethink my dream!  Kind regards  Chris Harnan, UK  From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38@...Sent: 14 January 2014 22:37To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: [origamiboats] RE: Midnight Gambler    It is definitely not one of mine. I would never put such sharp leading edges on a keel. It causes severe stalling at small angles of leeway, a common mistake on Roberts designs. I don't do multi chine and the ends of my boats have no chine, and are conic. I would never do a schooner, a hair brained rig .| 30634|30628|2014-01-16 18:35:43|brentswain38|Re: Midnight Gambler|With a schooner rig, the biggest sail is at the back, where it forces a boat to do the thing we fight to avoid in cruising boats , round up uncontrollably in strong following winds . I have friends who simply switched the masts around , converting their schooners to ketches, and the improvement has always , according to them, been invariably , huge!I also have friends  who have scraped the mizzen on their ketches, without doing anything different to  the main or its location or size, and they have told me the mizzen was never missed, and the boat sailed better and faster, even with less total sail  area , without the mizzen.  Moving the main mast further aft to compensate for the loss of the mizzen has always been a mistake ,giving a huge weather helm.| 30635|30635|2014-01-16 18:42:12|brentswain38|Anchor winch handle|A neighbour on one of my 36 footers is having trouble with  the handle on his anchor winch. The base of the winch handle, a piece of 1 1/4 inch sch 40 stainless pipe should be around 3 inches long, to take sideways loads on it . Evan made his only 1 5/8th inches long. The result is  side loading on it has made it loose and floppy, something which has never happened with a properly built one. I can rebuild it by straightening  the flared pipe and wrapping  a bit of 1 1/2 inch by 1/4 inch flatbar around it ,and fully welding it .This is a common problem with people building gear they have personally had little experience with using over a long period of time.| 30636|30628|2014-01-17 08:11:34|Chris Harnan|Re: Midnight Gambler|Thanks for taking the time to give your views. I had better rethink my ‘dream’ rig. I still think they look lovely!  Kind regards  Chris  From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38@...Sent: 16 January 2014 23:36To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSubject: RE: [origamiboats] RE: Midnight Gambler    With a schooner rig, the biggest sail is at the back, where it forces a boat to do the thing we fight to avoid in cruising boats , round up uncontrollably in strong following winds . I have friends who simply switched the masts around , converting their schooners to ketches, and the improvement has always , according to them, been invariably , huge!I also have friends  who have scraped the mizzen on their ketches, without doing anything different to  the main or its location or size, and they have told me the mizzen was never missed, and the boat sailed better and faster, even with less total sail  area , without the mizzen.  Moving the main mast further aft to compensate for the loss of the mizzen has always been a mistake ,giving a huge weather helm.| 30637|30637|2014-01-22 07:10:20|haideeab74|Coupon from 4inkjet to offer a fantastic shopping experience|4inkjets coupon has been known among the people of the United States as the best supplier of top discount toners and ink cartridges and the company offers a complete line of refill kits, fax toners, inkjet cartridges, laser toners and other supplies that would be required by printers. It not only offers high quality products, but also offers the best selection of coupons and promotional offers that allows users to save a great deal money to maximize the benefits of these printer products.4inkjet coupon 20% are not only readily available, but are easy to scan and apply as well. They need to be fed into the system at the point of check out to get discounts displayed on the order summary, and it is also makes shopping a truly exciting experience. These coupons not only help people to save money and offer a higher level of satisfaction as well as it combines discounts and quality products. Owing to these reason it also has a huge customer base and people truly enjoy easy and fast online shopping experience with 4inkjets coupon 20% off currently available across the site.| 30638|30592|2014-01-23 19:36:22|m_paivarinta|Re: 26ft plans|Is it possible to buy the book with cdn funds? I so what is the cost for book and shipping in Canada?| 30639|30592|2014-01-24 15:37:14|brentswain38|Re: 26ft plans|In Canada, for a copy of my book, please send $20 plus $5 for postage, to 3798  Laurel Dr Royston BC V0R2V0ThanksWhere are you?| 30640|30007|2014-01-30 03:46:46|badpirate36|Re: mounting hardware/dbl mainsheet|Is a 4 to 1 purchase suficient for double main sheets on a BS boat without winches? I have been looking at triple blocks for 6 to 1 purchase, but thats a lot of extra line (when reaching) Tom| 30641|30007|2014-01-30 19:34:48|brentswain38|Re: mounting hardware/dbl mainsheet|Four to one is plenty. One pad eye each side of the cupola. A single on each pad eye and a double on the boom. Run the sheet from the pad eye, over the double , around the opposite single, then back across the double on the boom, then  thru the other single , then  to a cleat| 30642|30592|2014-02-12 21:17:49|m_paivarinta|Re: 26ft plans|Thanks or the quick response Brent. I'm in Prince George, and will be mailing out the funds for the book on Monday.| 30643|30592|2014-02-12 21:19:18|brentswain38|Re: 26ft plans|Your book is in the mail.| 30644|30457|2014-02-17 18:19:13|Chris Salayka|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Hi all,  Where can I buy the epoxy tar paint in the Victoria area? I found this at Industrial Plastics and Paints in Victoria but they won't sell to an individual -- you need to be a licensed company although there is a waiver form that might work --COROPOXY Polyamide Coal Tar Epoxy. Thanks for any and all leads.   Chris On Friday, September 20, 2013 10:11:29 AM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   Being tar base seems to make it far more impervious to water. It goes on far thicker than most epoxies, making one coat of epoxy tar the equivalent of several coats of other epoxies, in terms of the protection if offers. That has been my experience over many decades. Bleed thru is not  a problem. Just give the last wet coat of epoxy tar a coat of colour and it will bleed thru like crazy,  giving a good, wet on wet bond. When that dries, give her another coat. That too will bleed like crazy. Let that harden up for several weeks . Then you can cover it with any colour you want, including white, with no bleed thru.Wasser makes a urethane based one part tar, which works just as well, for the same price range, Easy to use ,but is so volatile it goes off in the can if the can is not completely full. With a matt finish, it is much easier to over coat any time.  --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:It seems that here at origami boats the tar epoxy paint is the way to go. My paint store is telling me that there is also epoxy paint without tar. No tar is no bleeding through when covered with colour, and the price is only a bit higher. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1847916950 #ygrps-yiv-1847916950yiv6576187583 #ygrps-yiv-1847916950yiv6576187583ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1847916950 #ygrps-yiv-1847916950yiv6576187583 #ygrps-yiv-1847916950yiv6576187583ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1847916950 | 30645|30457|2014-02-17 18:57:42|brentswain38|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Coverdale paints sold it for 1/4 the industrial  plastics price, as does general paints , Pittsburg , etc etc.| 30646|30457|2014-02-17 19:04:50|Chris Salayka|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Thanks Brent -- I'll check with Cloverdale -- I was wondering if anybody had bought some recently and where and how much. 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In my forepeak overhead, I sprayed the gap full of canned sprayfoam thru small holes drilled in the paneling. I plan to do the  rest over time, to increase the insulation factor .I'd like to find some of that Tytan spray,  which I'm told is far more closed cell than most canned foams. When you have a Styrofoam cup full of boiling hot coffee, and the outside is barely warm, that demonstrates the insulating ability of even thin foam. Filing the gap between the panelling and the sprayfoam could boost the insulation in a boat considerably, and wouldn't cost all that much. | 30648|30648|2014-02-18 19:58:10|Robert Jones|closed cell foam kits|Brent, i could not remember if we could post links to forum. Wanted to send this link. These guys have kits that come with gun, hoses, and two 20lb propane containers full of foam. They also have smaller and, i believe larger kits. Closed and open cell. There are also other companies doing the same, but i have investigated these guys as i am remodeling and plan on ordering from them. robert jones http://www.sprayfoamkit.com/products/foam-it-green| 30649|30648|2014-02-19 05:55:22|James Pronk|Re: closed cell foam kits|How many square feet are there for a 36"? I figured about 850 square feet?I was thinking that there are so many companies doing this for home, it might be cheaper to hire someone to do it?James From: Robert Jones ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: [origamiboats] closed cell foam kits Sent: Wed, Feb 19, 2014 12:55:25 AM   Brent, i could not remember if we could post links to forum. Wanted to send this link. These guys have kits that come with gun, hoses, and two 20lb propane containers full of foam. They also have smaller and, i believe larger kits. Closed and open cell. There are also other companies doing the same, but i have investigated these guys as i am remodeling and plan on ordering from them. robert jones http://www.sprayfoamkit.com/products/foam-it-green | 30650|30648|2014-02-19 07:05:50|Robert Jones|Re: closed cell foam kits|James, i would guess that you are close with 050, figuring waterline up and no walls. When i priced the closed green cell it was around or less than 1$/ft. Custom sprayers that i have found for homes and shops range from 28 cents up to 1.25/ft. depending on the company and size of job. I would say, if you can get all, or most, of what you need done ready at the same time and can get a company to come for under 1000 feet, then hire. If your like me, and one room at a time, then the kits, that can be stopped(with a little gun cleanup) and put up till next time at my leisure may be best option. Or you could do some of both if you can get a company to come for most and do rest with kit, or can later. The good thing about the guys with the machines is that they are usually hungry for work because the machines are expensive(25-75k)  and they need to have them producing income so they will negotiate, especially if they can come on short notice. robert On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 4:55 AM, James Pronk wrote:   How many square feet are there for a 36"? I figured about 850 square feet?I was thinking that there are so many companies doing this for home, it might be cheaper to hire someone to do it?James From: Robert Jones ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: [origamiboats] closed cell foam kits Sent: Wed, Feb 19, 2014 12:55:25 AM   Brent, i could not remember if we could post links to forum. Wanted to send this link. These guys have kits that come with gun, hoses, and two 20lb propane containers full of foam. They also have smaller and, i believe larger kits. Closed and open cell. 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The foam in them is better than the cheap cans and the pin in the gun, when trigger is released, will seal container for months without letting pressure out, so you can use a little, shut the valve, wipe the tip and put it up for a good while. rj On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 4:55 AM, James Pronk wrote:   How many square feet are there for a 36"? I figured about 850 square feet?I was thinking that there are so many companies doing this for home, it might be cheaper to hire someone to do it?James From: Robert Jones ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: [origamiboats] closed cell foam kits Sent: Wed, Feb 19, 2014 12:55:25 AM   Brent, i could not remember if we could post links to forum. Wanted to send this link. These guys have kits that come with gun, hoses, and two 20lb propane containers full of foam. They also have smaller and, i believe larger kits. Closed and open cell. 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#ygrps-yiv-1021656950yiv0959348990ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1021656950 #ygrps-yiv-1021656950yiv0959348990 #ygrps-yiv-1021656950yiv0959348990ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1021656950 #ygrps-yiv-1021656950yiv0959348990 #ygrps-yiv-1021656950yiv0959348990ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1021656950 #ygrps-yiv-1021656950yiv0959348990 #ygrps-yiv-1021656950yiv0959348990ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1021656950 | 30652|30648|2014-02-19 07:49:04|James Pronk|Re: closed cell foam kits|I just figured. 8x36=288x3=864'square? From: Robert Jones ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] closed cell foam kits Sent: Wed, Feb 19, 2014 12:02:54 PM   James, i would guess that you are close with 050, figuring waterline up and no walls. When i priced the closed green cell it was around or less than 1$/ft. Custom sprayers that i have found for homes and shops range from 28 cents up to 1.25/ft. depending on the company and size of job. I would say, if you can get all, or most, of what you need done ready at the same time and can get a company to come for under 1000 feet, then hire. If your like me, and one room at a time, then the kits, that can be stopped(with a little gun cleanup) and put up till next time at my leisure may be best option. Or you could do some of both if you can get a company to come for most and do rest with kit, or can later. The good thing about the guys with the machines is that they are usually hungry for work because the machines are expensive(25-75k)  and they need to have them producing income so they will negotiate, especially if they can come on short notice. robert On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 4:55 AM, James Pronk wrote:   How many square feet are there for a 36"? I figured about 850 square feet?I was thinking that there are so many companies doing this for home, it might be cheaper to hire someone to do it?James From: Robert Jones ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: [origamiboats] closed cell foam kits Sent: Wed, Feb 19, 2014 12:55:25 AM   Brent, i could not remember if we could post links to forum. Wanted to send this link. These guys have kits that come with gun, hoses, and two 20lb propane containers full of foam. They also have smaller and, i believe larger kits. Closed and open cell. There are also other companies doing the same, but i have investigated these guys as i am remodeling and plan on ordering from them. robert jones http://www.sprayfoamkit.com/products/foam-it-green | 30653|30647|2014-02-19 12:49:11|wild_explorer|Re: Additional sprayfoam insulation|I read somewhere that it is recommended to have 1-2" gap between paneling and hull/foam to allow air circulation to prevent mold grows and moisture accumulation on the paneling and hull/foam. >I found that with an inch and a half of sprayfoam in my boat there was still quite bit of space between the >paneling and the foam.| 30654|30647|2014-02-22 02:24:19|brentswain38|Re: Additional sprayfoam insulation|You get very  little air movement, if any,   behind panelling, and thus no moisture accumulation. Panelling is porous enough to eliminate that problem. I've had no such problem in nearly 30 years of living aboard. I have been told that if you wash a surface with a solution of borax and water, the thin film of borax left behind eliminates the chance of mold growth. 2 inches of space between foam and paneling would be a huge waste of interior space.| 30655|30457|2014-02-22 02:27:47|brentswain38|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Wasser urethane based tar works just as well, and there is no mixing.It is roughly the same price as epoxy tar. Recoat can be done anytime ,unlike epoxy tar. It is super  volatile, and wont last long inside a can which has been opened, or left partly full. The last time I bought either, it was around$45 a gallon. That was a while ago.| 30656|30647|2014-02-22 06:17:38|bty568635|Re: Additional sprayfoam insulation|This site has good info on borax/antifreeze as rot/ insect killer in wood in marine environments. Not tried it though. http://www.acbs-bslol.com/gadgets/d97woodrot.htm From: "brentswain38@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 22 February 2014, 7:24 Subject: [origamiboats] RE: Additional sprayfoam insulation You get very  little air movement, if any,   behind panelling, and thus no moisture accumulation. Panelling is porous enough to eliminate that problem. I've had no such problem in nearly 30 years of living aboard. I have been told that if you wash a surface with a solution of borax and water, the thin film of borax left behind eliminates the chance of mold growth. 2 inches of space between foam and paneling would be a huge waste of interior space. | 30657|30647|2014-02-22 06:50:16|Robert Jones|Re: Additional sprayfoam insulation|Brent, Based on recommended home standards on sprayfoam, i tend to agree with you. The way that homes are done is that the foam is sprayed almost even with wall or ceiling paneling and special scraped knives are used to shave the excess to make flush. There seems to be one difference in homes, it is recommended that open cell be used in ceiling for moisture to flow up through. This is of course because the moisture has somewhere to move, which is toward the ceiling which has either active or passive insulation. If the underside of roofing, such as metal roofing, is spayed, there seems to be some falling on the closed foam side, and some on the open side. I fall on the closed anytime against metal. As for air movement behind walls, i too believe there is very little as hot air does not move laterally unless forced by closed spaces which usually only occur when the boat would be closed tight in humid climates.Hopefully, most that will close a boat up like that will provide some type of dehumidification. As for preventative compounds, inhibitors to mold growth, the most common used in the home industry, according to one site, are          "Most fungicides that can be bought retail are sold in a liquid form. A very common active ingredient is sulfur,[4] present at 0.08% in weaker concentrates, and as high as 0.5% for more potent fungicides. Fungicides in powdered form are usually around 90% sulfur and are very toxic. Other active ingredients in fungicides include neem oil, rosemary oil, jojoba oil, the bacterium Bacillus subtilis, and the beneficial fungus Ulocladium oudemansii."    robert On Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:24 AM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   You get very  little air movement, if any,   behind panelling, and thus no moisture accumulation. Panelling is porous enough to eliminate that problem. I've had no such problem in nearly 30 years of living aboard. 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#ygrps-yiv-1352393449yiv3573426370ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1352393449 #ygrps-yiv-1352393449yiv3573426370 #ygrps-yiv-1352393449yiv3573426370ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1352393449 #ygrps-yiv-1352393449yiv3573426370 #ygrps-yiv-1352393449yiv3573426370ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1352393449 #ygrps-yiv-1352393449yiv3573426370 #ygrps-yiv-1352393449yiv3573426370ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1352393449 | 30658|30658|2014-02-22 15:12:45|akenai|Brent Swain for sale in Victoria|I see what looks like the boat Alex had for a short while for sail on Victoria craigslisthttp://victoria.en.craigslist.ca/boa/4303059279.htmlAny extra info I could get to pass on to a friend that is interested?Aaron| 30659|30457|2014-02-23 03:00:02|Chris Salayka|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Hi   Checked Cloverdale Paints -- they have ClovaTar 22 -- Coal Tar Epoxy. Cost is 64.02 for gallon of Epoxy and 119.20 for the catalyst. If anyone has bought any version of this stuff recently please let me know. I live in the area of Victoria but any source appreciated between the Island and Edmonton. Thanks,  Chris On Friday, February 21, 2014 11:27:51 PM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   Wasser urethane based tar works just as well, and there is no mixing.It is roughly the same price as epoxy tar. Recoat can be done anytime ,unlike epoxy tar. It is super  volatile, and wont last long inside a can which has been opened, or left partly full. The last time I bought either, it was around$45 a gallon. 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#ygrps-yiv-1914320341yiv7879362748ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1914320341 #ygrps-yiv-1914320341yiv7879362748 #ygrps-yiv-1914320341yiv7879362748ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1914320341 | 30660|30457|2014-02-23 06:59:30|tinboat2010|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Do a Google search for "tar epoxy" or "coal tar epoxy" and it's made or sold by manufacture's from Rustoleum, Krylon, Behr, (Homedepot) Benjamin Moore, Sherwin-Williams ..... and many more.Gallons to 5 gallon buckets  .... It's even on Amazon ....| 30661|30658|2014-02-23 12:15:48|brentswain38|Re: Brent Swain for sale in Victoria|That is the 36 Alex owned only briefly, Shair. It is not the one he built .| 30662|30658|2014-02-23 12:20:48|brentswain38|Re: Brent Swain for sale in Victoria|She is extremely well built and well equipped, a deal at that price. I saw the aluminium mast on deck just before stepping, not all that long ago. You wont find a better steel boat at a better price.| 30663|30457|2014-02-23 12:23:27|brentswain38|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|I last bought  it a few years ago at $45 a gallon for the works,  hardner included. Works as good as any other epoxy tar.| 30664|30648|2014-02-23 12:37:11|brentswain38|Re: closed cell foam kits|I reckon about 766 sq feet for a 36 . It costs about the same to hire someone to do it as the kits cost,and they get it done smoothly, in a couple of hours. Being flexible on time can make it cheaper if you are not in a big city. Then they can combine your job with others .Don't let them leave until you have checked it over several times and had them touch up any missed spots. It can look great,  until after they leave, and you find all kinds of spots they missed.Some are real artists, and can get it very smooth, leaving little for you to cut off,  some make a huge mess, leaving you a lot of foam carving to do.Make sure you have  a lot of epoxy on the inside before spray foaming. Spray foam on bare steel or primer has resulted in a lot of boats rusting out from the inside (Foulkes, Fehr , Amazons ) Spray foam does not protect steel from rusting. You don't get a second chance at it.| 30665|30647|2014-02-23 12:43:50|brentswain38|Re: Additional sprayfoam insulation|I'd avoid any open cell foam anywhere on a boat . Friends on an aluminium boat used it, and it was dripping soggy with condensation for the entire winter.| 30666|30647|2014-02-23 15:05:57|Robert Jones|Re: Additional sprayfoam insulation|I surely understand no open cell. I am torn, on on our river camp remodel, as to go with contruction standards using open cell in ceiling, or to go with my gut and use closed. we are 6 feet from river level in an area than can get 60" rainfall, and averages over 90% humidity year round. Assuming a steel roof, i am not sure the difference between a boat moored 100 feet away and the house itself. I would rather the condensation stay in the house for mechanical removal than form that "soggy" layer against the underside of the tin(inside the open cell).  robert On Sunday, February 23, 2014 11:43 AM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   I'd avoid any open cell foam anywhere on a boat . 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#ygrps-yiv-1124127891yiv2482612814ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1124127891 #ygrps-yiv-1124127891yiv2482612814 #ygrps-yiv-1124127891yiv2482612814ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1124127891 #ygrps-yiv-1124127891yiv2482612814 #ygrps-yiv-1124127891yiv2482612814ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1124127891 #ygrps-yiv-1124127891yiv2482612814 #ygrps-yiv-1124127891yiv2482612814ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1124127891 | 30667|30648|2014-02-23 15:09:40|Robert Jones|Re: closed cell foam kits|Can you even imagine having to scrape, gouge and peel sprayfoam out to get at the inside of a rusting hull, and then still having to try and clean the rust away amongst hanging, partially glued pieces of foam. I think of might have nightmares from just imagining it!! rj On Sunday, February 23, 2014 11:37 AM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   I reckon about 766 sq feet for a 36 . It costs about the same to hire someone to do it as the kits cost,and they get it done smoothly, in a couple of hours. Being flexible on time can make it cheaper if you are not in a big city. Then they can combine your job with others .Don't let them leave until you have checked it over several times and had them touch up any missed spots. It can look great,  until after they leave, and you find all kinds of spots they missed.Some are real artists, and can get it very smooth, leaving little for you to cut off,  some make a huge mess, leaving you a lot of foam carving to do.Make sure you have  a lot of epoxy on the inside before spray foaming. Spray foam on bare steel or primer has resulted in a lot of boats rusting out from the inside (Foulkes, Fehr , Amazons ) Spray foam does not protect steel from rusting. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2061787004 #ygrps-yiv-2061787004yiv6782747991 #ygrps-yiv-2061787004yiv6782747991ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-2061787004 #ygrps-yiv-2061787004yiv6782747991 #ygrps-yiv-2061787004yiv6782747991ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-2061787004 | 30668|30648|2014-02-23 15:24:48|James Pronk|Re: closed cell foam kits|One of the things I make is fire pits from the tanks of old hot water heaters. Some of the tanks have a layer of fibreglass insulation on them and they most often will start to leak where the heating elements screw in. These work very good, the steel is in pretty good shape. Other tanks have spray foam insulation on them and if they are in a wet environment or if they start leaking around the heating elements the water doesn't leak from the bottom but soaks the insulation. The tanks when I have tried to peel the foam off are so badly rusted that it is not worth my time to try to make a fire pit out of them. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30669|30648|2014-02-23 15:31:53|Robert Jones|Re: closed cell foam kits|Sounds about right. Any way you look at it, it would be UGLY!!! James, it sounds like you are a scrounger/fabricator like me. robert On Sunday, February 23, 2014 2:24 PM, James Pronk wrote:   One of the things I make is fire pits from the tanks of old hot water heaters. Some of the tanks have a layer of fibreglass insulation on them and they most often will start to leak where the heating elements screw in. These work very good, the steel is in pretty good shape. Other tanks have spray foam insulation on them and if they are in a wet environment or if they start leaking around the heating elements the water doesn't leak from the bottom but soaks the insulation. The tanks when I have tried to peel the foam off are so badly rusted that it is not worth my time to try to make a fire pit out of them. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1258812133 #ygrps-yiv-1258812133yiv3650056023 #ygrps-yiv-1258812133yiv3650056023ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1258812133 #ygrps-yiv-1258812133yiv3650056023 #ygrps-yiv-1258812133yiv3650056023ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1258812133 | 30670|30648|2014-02-23 15:44:58|James Pronk|Re: closed cell foam kits|I make a lot of stuff from old 200 gallon home heating fuel tanks.You can see some of my work on my Facebook pagehttps://www.facebook.com/jamespronkartJames From: Robert Jones ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] closed cell foam kits Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 8:31:34 PM   Sounds about right. Any way you look at it, it would be UGLY!!! James, it sounds like you are a scrounger/fabricator like me. robert On Sunday, February 23, 2014 2:24 PM, James Pronk wrote:   One of the things I make is fire pits from the tanks of old hot water heaters. Some of the tanks have a layer of fibreglass insulation on them and they most often will start to leak where the heating elements screw in. These work very good, the steel is in pretty good shape. Other tanks have spray foam insulation on them and if they are in a wet environment or if they start leaking around the heating elements the water doesn't leak from the bottom but soaks the insulation. The tanks when I have tried to peel the foam off are so badly rusted that it is not worth my time to try to make a fire pit out of them. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 30671|30647|2014-02-23 20:03:10|Scott Carle|Re: Additional sprayfoam insulation|um on steel i would definitely go closed cell.. you can do open cell on wood as the wood will allow moisture through it.. with steel the open cell foam will hold moisture against the steel.. bad combo. From: Robert Jones To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] RE: Additional sprayfoam insulation   I surely understand no open cell. I am torn, on on our river camp remodel, as to go with contruction standards using open cell in ceiling, or to go with my gut and use closed. we are 6 feet from river level in an area than can get 60" rainfall, and averages over 90% humidity year round. Assuming a steel roof, i am not sure the difference between a boat moored 100 feet away and the house itself. I would rather the condensation stay in the house for mechanical removal than form that "soggy" layer against the underside of the tin(inside the open cell).  robert On Sunday, February 23, 2014 11:43 AM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   I'd avoid any open cell foam anywhere on a boat . 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#ygrps-yiv-704444937yiv6462276768ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-704444937 | 30672|30457|2014-02-24 00:50:41|Chris Salayka|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Both Industrial Plastics and Paints and Cloverdale require account/license to buy. Cloverdale price seems out of line at 180 plus tax. I would like to know where I can get it now without hassles and at a reasonable price. Shipping is problematic and not an option right now. I've even checked Nanaimo Shipyard (going out of business) but no luck so far. On Sunday, February 23, 2014 5:23:31 PM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   I last bought  it a few years ago at $45 a gallon for the works,  hardner included. 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#ygrps-yiv-1796247252yiv3292552895ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1796247252 #ygrps-yiv-1796247252yiv3292552895 #ygrps-yiv-1796247252yiv3292552895ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1796247252 | 30673|30457|2014-02-24 06:51:21|Robert Jones|Re: Tar vs no tar epoxy paint|Amazon and others will mail order. Most i checked seemd around 60-70/galhttp://www.amazon.com/Coating-Black-Coal-Tar-Epoxy/dp/B007IA4AWE On Sunday, February 23, 2014 11:50 PM, Chris Salayka wrote:   Both Industrial Plastics and Paints and Cloverdale require account/license to buy. Cloverdale price seems out of line at 180 plus tax. I would like to know where I can get it now without hassles and at a reasonable price. Shipping is problematic and not an option right now. I've even checked Nanaimo Shipyard (going out of business) but no luck so far. On Sunday, February 23, 2014 5:23:31 PM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:   I last bought  it a few years ago at $45 a gallon for the works,  hardner included. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1582803558 #ygrps-yiv-1582803558yiv0763759710 #ygrps-yiv-1582803558yiv0763759710ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1582803558 #ygrps-yiv-1582803558yiv0763759710 #ygrps-yiv-1582803558yiv0763759710ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1582803558 | 30674|30648|2014-02-24 12:58:14|brentswain38|Re: closed cell foam kits|I tried fibreglass insulation on my last boat. Despite my efforts to get a totally sealed vapour barrier, it was soggy and dripping all winter long. I replaced it with closed cell spray foam and had no further problem.| 30675|30675|2014-02-24 14:05:42|Tom|42 footer ..... ????|Brent, I came across a photo that say's, "a 42 ft Brent Swain junk schooner." A 42 footer ... ???? What's the story ... ???Tom Williams| 30676|30675|2014-02-24 14:39:24|akenai@yahoo.com|Re: 42 footer ..... ????|Where was it at? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From: Tom ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: [origamiboats] 42 footer ..... ???? Sent: Mon, Feb 24, 2014 7:05:40 PM   Brent, I came across a photo that say's, "a 42 ft Brent Swain junk schooner." A 42 footer ... ???? What's the story ... ???Tom Williams | 30677|30675|2014-02-24 14:39:44|akenai@yahoo.com|Re: 42 footer ..... ????|Where was it at? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From: Tom ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: [origamiboats] 42 footer ..... ???? Sent: Mon, Feb 24, 2014 7:05:40 PM   Brent, I came across a photo that say's, "a 42 ft Brent Swain junk schooner." A 42 footer ... ???? What's the story ... ???Tom Williams | 30678|30678|2014-02-25 00:18:20|Tom|Brent Swain 42 footer .... ????|I found the photo on;Yahoo Groups: junkrigFiles: 42' Steel Brent Swain junk schooner, Double ender, located Comox harbour, BCI believe the "Double ender" may tell the story, a 40 footer and the canoe stern makes it a 42 footer ...Brent, I came across a photo that say's, "a 42 ft Brent Swain junk schooner." A 42 footer ... ???? What's the story ... ???Tom | 30679|30647|2014-02-25 16:49:20|a.sobriquet|Re: Additional sprayfoam insulation|Robert,You are correct. It is no more correct to use open cell-foam on a camp than it is a boat -- IF the open-cell foam is to the inside (the warm side) of your vapor barrier. Many commercially-sprayed construction foams are closed-cell, so they act as a vapor barrier themselves, and can be sprayed inside your walls, just as they can be used inside a boat. ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote:I surely understand no open cell. I am torn, on on our river camp remodel, as to go with contruction standards using open cell in ceiling, or to go with my gut and use closed. we are 6 feet from river level in an area than can get 60" rainfall, and averages over 90% humidity year round. Assuming a steel roof, i am not sure the difference between a boat moored 100 feet away and the house itself. I would rather the condensation stay in the house for mechanical removal than form that "soggy" layer against the underside of the tin(inside the open cell).  robert On Sunday, February 23, 2014 11:43 AM, "brentswain38@..." wrote:  I'd avoid any open cell foam anywhere on a boat . 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#ygrps-yiv-1578304367ygrps-yiv-2040114507yiv2482612814 #ygrps-yiv-1578304367ygrps-yiv-2040114507yiv2482612814ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1578304367 #ygrps-yiv-1578304367ygrps-yiv-2040114507 #ygrps-yiv-1578304367ygrps-yiv-2040114507yiv2482612814 #ygrps-yiv-1578304367ygrps-yiv-2040114507yiv2482612814ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1578304367 #ygrps-yiv-1578304367ygrps-yiv-2040114507 #ygrps-yiv-1578304367ygrps-yiv-2040114507yiv2482612814 #ygrps-yiv-1578304367ygrps-yiv-2040114507yiv2482612814ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} | 30680|30678|2014-02-25 17:38:03|brentswain38|Re: Brent Swain 42 footer .... ????|About the only one coming close to that description was Jack Carson's boat. He bought the bare shell of a 36, which someone had turned into a canoe stern, then cut it in half and added a piece amidships, then finished her and put  a junk rig on her. I definitely didn't design  her that way.He bought the bare shell in January and was headed to the north coast in her by June, to do a fisheries contract he had acquired in the fall. Jack keeps her in Mexico for winter cruising, and spend his  summers here in BC.Previously he had done a circumnavigation in one of my 36 ft twin keelers."Island Breeze"| 30681|30658|2014-02-25 17:39:51|ninbubbas|Re: Brent Swain for sale in Victoria|That looks like a well-built boat. Did Mr. Christie build that one? I love the counter tops. Those make it feel like a proper yacht. Nicely done.| 30682|30648|2014-02-25 17:39:59|lae52|Re: closed cell foam kits|James,That's very nice iron work.Dave| 30683|30658|2014-02-25 17:48:09|brentswain38|Re: Brent Swain for sale in Victoria|Evan Shaler built the steel work on that one. Kim did the rest.| 30684|30592|2014-02-26 17:45:55|m_paivarinta|Re: 26ft plans|Thanks for the quick turnaround Brent. Love the book!| 30685|30685|2014-02-26 22:51:07|Yves-Marie de Tanton|Request| Hello, Sorry to bother, I had a sudden trip out of the country to Greece to see my ill cousin, she's suffering from a Kidney disease and must undergo surgery to save her life. The surgery is cheap here in Greece, I traveled with little money due to the short time I had to prepare for this trip and never expected things to be the way it is right now as my credit card can't work here. I need a loan of  2,500euros from you to pay the balance before the commencement of the surgical operation and will reimburse you at my return. I'll really appreciate whatever amount you can come up with if not all, get back to me I'll advise on how to transfer it. Thanks,Yves Marie Tanton| 30686|30686|2014-02-26 23:36:48|Bruno Ogorelec|Warning od e-mail scam|Fellow origami boat enthusiasts, the mail allegedly from Mr. Tanton is a scam to extract money.  Someone has obviously hacked his mail account.  Please do not respond and do not send any money.  It is a common form of interbnet fraud Bruno OgorelecIvana Lackovića Croate 3, Odra10020 ZagrebTel.       +385 1 22 22 575 Mobile:  +385 98 224 230 | 30687|30685|2014-02-27 00:36:17|Aaron|Re: Request|Looks like some body was hacked I received the same request to my personal email From: Yves-Marie de Tanton To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 6:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Request   Hello, Sorry to bother, I had a sudden trip out of the country to Greece to see my ill cousin, she's suffering from a Kidney disease and must undergo surgery to save her life. The surgery is cheap here in Greece, I traveled with little money due to the short time I had to prepare for this trip and never expected things to be the way it is right now as my credit card can't work here. I need a loan of  2,500euros from you to pay the balance before the commencement of the surgical operation and will reimburse you at my return. I'll really appreciate whatever amount you can come up with if not all, get back to me I'll advise on how to transfer it. 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li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-422019325 | 30688|30685|2014-02-27 07:19:39|James Pronk|Re: Request|Well for starters Greece has Medicare and does not ask for money up front, even from travellers. Only in America, the land of the free, until you get injured or sick! From: Aaron ; To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Request Sent: Thu, Feb 27, 2014 5:36:16 AM   Looks like some body was hacked I received the same request to my personal email From: Yves-Marie de Tanton To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 6:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Request   Hello, Sorry to bother, I had a sudden trip out of the country to Greece to see my ill cousin, she's suffering from a Kidney disease and must undergo surgery to save her life. The surgery is cheap here in Greece, I traveled with little money due to the short time I had to prepare for this trip and never expected things to be the way it is right now as my credit card can't work here. I need a loan of  2,500euros from you to pay the balance before the commencement of the surgical operation and will reimburse you at my return. I'll really appreciate whatever amount you can come up with if not all, get back to me I'll advise on how to transfer it. Thanks,Yves Marie Tanton | 30689|30689|2014-03-08 06:32:29|edward_stoneuk|Lines drawing and hull offsets|Hi Brent, Our 36' bilge keeler is not far off from being in the water now.  There have been a few delays working overseas, etc.  We are checking the balance by trying to balance it on blocks at the centre of buoyancy 20' 6" back from the bow around under the gunnel pipe.  I think that when I fill my larger water tanks it will be heavier forward.  We intend rigging it as a kunk Schooner so the weight of the fore mast and sail will also pull the bow down.  To make the correct redesign decisions it would be usefull to have a lines drawing showing the hull offsets.  Do you have a table of offsets?  Or if not any neat suggestions on how to take them off the boat when it is standing on an uneven dirt floor? Thanks, Ted| 30690|30689|2014-03-10 14:41:28|brentswain38|Re: Lines drawing and hull offsets|As the only offsets needed for an origami boat are the plate layout O dontts I don't have any for the hull. You could draw vertical lines on her with a laser pointer and take a photo from the bow and stern As most of your storage is in the stern, it is far better for a new boat to be low in the bow than low in the stern. As you begin to build up an accumulation of stuff in a boat ,she always goes down by the stern.I do have a lines drawing | 30691|30691|2014-03-13 13:01:14|aaron riis|Steel prices?|Hey what is the steel price these days, I paid about 4k for my '26 in 2000, but that was in northern BC and a lot of it was freight.   Interested to know whats happened with the Chinese economy and all..   Aaron| 30692|30691|2014-03-13 15:41:05|wild_explorer|Re: Steel prices?|Looks like the price of steel plate now is about 2.5 times higher than it was in 2000. Plus freight....| 30693|30691|2014-03-14 03:19:42|Hannu Venermo|Re: Steel prices?| 1 minute in google. Billet and slab steel prices have approx doubled from 2002 to 2014, and are now prettty stable at around 500 per metric tonne. 500€ in europe, and 500$ in china. http://www.steelonthenet.com/pricing-history.php Retail is about 50% to double of ex works mill price, basic mild steel is about 1€/kg in europe. On 13/03/2014 17:58, aaron riis wrote:   Hey what is the steel price these days, I paid about 4k for my '26 in 2000, but that was in northern BC and a lot of it was freight.   Interested to know whats happened with the Chinese economy and all..    Aaron -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 30694|20103|2014-03-16 10:31:06|jpronk1|Steel mast|I was looking at pipe sizes for another job and found this. Nominal pipe size 5", outside diameter 5.563". Wall thickness schedule 5 -.109" schedule 10 -.134" Could this be used for a mast? You could use schedule 10 for the bottom and schedule 5 for the top? James| 30695|30658|2014-03-17 01:06:45|northcanoe|Re: Brent Swain for sale in Victoria|Yes that is Shair, I just saw the ad myself. Looks like lots of work has been done to improve the rig with new mast and railings, and possibly the engine is different too. Pretty good value.| 30696|30689|2014-03-18 11:33:57|edward_stoneuk|Re: Lines drawing and hull offsets|Thanks Brent, I will see how we get on. Best regards, Ted| 30697|20103|2014-03-19 17:46:14|brentswain38|Re: Steel mast|      That's a bit smaller than we normally use. Normally for a 36 we use 6 inch OD with an11 gauge wall thickness. | 30698|30691|2014-03-19 17:50:22|brentswain38|Re: Steel prices?|      For Alex's boat, many years ago, I believe  the basic steel cost $9500. For the last 36, started this past fall, the same steel cost $9,000. The price looks to be dropping.Alex , in which year did we build your hull ?| 30699|20103|2014-03-19 19:04:34|James Pronk|Re: Steel mast|For some reason I was thinking it was 5 1/2"? I guess 6" will be easier to get. Thanks. James From: brentswain38@... ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel mast Sent: Wed, Mar 19, 2014 9:46:13 PM         That's a bit smaller than we normally use. Normally for a 36 we use 6 inch OD with an11 gauge wall thickness. | 30700|30700|2014-03-20 19:14:40|brentswain38|Getting rid of a sliding hatch|There is a great picture in the march issue  of Ocean Navigator , on page 5, and page 10 of the February issue of Pacific Yachting, showing how one cruiser converted his sliding  hatch into a much better, one piece door. What he did can be easily done on a workbench and installed in a couple, of hours on any boat with the grossly  outdated sliding  hatch contraption. The one in the picture could have been made much larger, by making the bottom and top longer, or made even larger by using a cupola on the top. This would give one a far more seaworthy and  far easier to use opening than a sliding hatch could ever be.| 30701|30700|2014-03-20 23:29:32|Aaron|Re: Getting rid of a sliding hatch|Thanks BrentI was thinking about something similar since I made my aft cabin wall a bit to straight. Its ether that or cut and lean it in or forward more as it should have been to start with. Aaron  From: "brentswain38@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 3:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Getting rid of a sliding hatch   There is a great picture in the march issue  of Ocean Navigator , on page 5, and page 10 of the February issue of Pacific Yachting, showing how one cruiser converted his sliding  hatch into a much better, one piece door. What he did can be easily done on a workbench and installed in a couple, of hours on any boat with the grossly  outdated sliding  hatch contraption. The one in the picture could have been made much larger, by making the bottom and top longer, or made even larger by using a cupola on the top. 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#ygrps-yiv-1014001243yiv3946822095ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1014001243 #ygrps-yiv-1014001243yiv3946822095 #ygrps-yiv-1014001243yiv3946822095ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1014001243 #ygrps-yiv-1014001243yiv3946822095 #ygrps-yiv-1014001243yiv3946822095ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1014001243 #ygrps-yiv-1014001243yiv3946822095 #ygrps-yiv-1014001243yiv3946822095ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1014001243 | 30702|30700|2014-03-21 10:48:05|mkriley48|Re: Getting rid of a sliding hatch|coulsd someone post the picture for those of us who don't have acess to the magazines?mike| 30703|30700|2014-03-22 01:12:05|Aaron|Re: Getting rid of a sliding hatch|Go to http://www.pacificyachtingdigital.com/ then find back issues go to February then open that month you will have to turn pages by the arrows in the reader bar. at least it worked for me that way and I don't have a subscriptionI could not copy the picture to share.It looks like a recessed left hanging window   From: "mkriley48@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Getting rid of a sliding hatch   coulsd someone post the picture for those of us who don't have acess to the magazines?mike #ygrps-yiv-74069799 #ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060 #ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060 -- #ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-74069799 #ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060 #ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-74069799 #ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060 #ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-74069799 #ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060 #ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-74069799 #ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060 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#ygrps-yiv-74069799yiv6463614060ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-74069799 | 30704|30700|2014-03-22 10:16:44|a.sobriquet|Re: Getting rid of a sliding hatch|http://pacificyachting.imirus.com/Mpowered/index.html?volume=yacht14&issue=2&page=1#12page 10---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :could someone post the picture for those of us who don't have acess to the magazines?mike| 30705|30700|2014-03-22 21:58:30|Brian Stannard|Re: Getting rid of a sliding hatch|I think you are referring to Glenn Wakefield's boat "Westwind II". Here is a link to how the hatch was done with better pics.http://glennwakefieldaroundtheworld.wordpress.com/westwindii-refit/ On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 7:16 AM, wrote:   http://pacificyachting.imirus.com/Mpowered/index.html?volume=yacht14&issue=2&page=1#12 page 10---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :could someone post the picture for those of us who don't have acess to the magazines? mike -- CheersBrian | 30706|30700|2014-03-22 22:02:01|mkriley48|Re: Getting rid of a sliding hatch|Thanks the picture was great. For some reason I could not get past the home page it kept asking for a login.mike| 30707|30707|2014-03-23 08:06:39|pha7env|Steve Dashew Mariners Weather and Storm Tactics free for downloading|Steve Dashew, designer of the FPB series excursion yachts/world sailer and auther of a number of related books is offering two of his books free for download. The the following link will take you to the page. If not, go to his site and look for weather topic. From Steve "Dashew Offshore, Beowulf Publishing, and the FPB team have been blessed with the support of the cruising community for many years, and we’d like to return the favor in a small way. We are making two of our books, Mariner’s Weather Handbook and Surviving the Storm, available for free as PDF files. There is no catch, nothing to sign up for, you do not even put your email in, just download. Simply click on the links below to download these publications. We hope the first title helps you avoid the need for the second. http://setsail.com/weather-forecasting-storm-tactics-and-successful-cruising/ robert| 30708|30700|2014-03-24 15:00:17|M.J. Malone|Re: Getting rid of a sliding hatch| mkriley48@... wrote:   coulsd someone post the picture for those of us who don't have acess to the magazines? mike | 30709|30700|2014-03-24 15:00:23|M.J. Malone|Re: Getting rid of a sliding hatch| mkriley48@... wrote:   coulsd someone post the picture for those of us who don't have acess to the magazines? mike | 30710|30700|2014-03-24 17:22:19|brentswain38|Re: Getting rid of a sliding hatch|        March issue of Ocean Navigator also has the picture, on page 5. Maybe they will have an easier access to it.. | 30711|30700|2014-03-24 17:28:23|brentswain38|Re: Getting rid of a sliding hatch|      Making those   residual hatch remains on top into a cupola, and extending the opening lower, would have given  far more room to enter, without compromising seaworthiness and function in any way.| 30712|30700|2014-03-24 21:12:43|M.J. Malone|Re: Getting rid of a sliding hatch| Pocket email, sorry everyone "M.J. Malone" wrote:   mkriley48@... wrote:   coulsd someone post the picture for those of us who don't have acess to the magazines? mike | 30713|30713|2014-04-05 15:21:01|badpirate36|thru deck fittings| I would like to install a thru deck fitiing for a chimney(diesel heater) on my cambered deck. the instructions call for a wooden shim to level the area. what is the prefered method for metal boats(aluminium)Tom| 30714|30713|2014-04-05 18:24:17|brentswain38|Re: thru deck fittings|On aluminium I would  just weld a big enough aluminium pipe into let a 4 inch stainless one run right thru it, gooped in with silicone. Silicone takes a lot of heat with no problem. That way you can have a single ss stove pipe right to your stove, with no chance of smelly creosote leaks. Aluminium spreads the heat so quickly that there is no chance of it even getting warm at any point| 30715|30713|2014-04-05 18:26:22|brentswain38|Re: thru deck fittings|I was on a boat with a very hot woodstove running,  and the aluminium sheet right next to it was cool to the touch.You definitely don't want any wood on nor any traditional deck iron .| 30716|30713|2014-04-05 18:27:59|brentswain38|Re: thru deck fittings|With these Vancouver Island computers deleting whole sentences and lines randomly, without warning, I have to make several posts to reply.| 30717|30713|2014-04-05 18:30:53|brentswain38|Re: thru deck fittings|Scrapyards have some great 4 inch stainless stove pipe from the pulp mills. Far better than any yachtie stuff.| 30718|30718|2014-04-12 17:06:18|mickeyolaf|Dock Walking in Kona|I"ve attached a couple of photos of an aluminum sailboat that's for sale north of Kona. $20k.| 30719|30718|2014-04-12 18:20:25|Aaron|Re: Dock Walking in Kona|The Attachments' did not make it From: "mickeyolaf@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 1:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Dock Walking in Kona   I"ve attached a couple of photos of an aluminum sailboat that's for sale north of Kona. $20k. #ygrps-yiv-811045513 #ygrps-yiv-811045513yiv7076709238 #ygrps-yiv-811045513yiv7076709238 -- #ygrps-yiv-811045513yiv7076709238ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-811045513 #ygrps-yiv-811045513yiv7076709238 #ygrps-yiv-811045513yiv7076709238ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-811045513 #ygrps-yiv-811045513yiv7076709238 #ygrps-yiv-811045513yiv7076709238ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-811045513yiv7076709238hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-811045513 #ygrps-yiv-811045513yiv7076709238 #ygrps-yiv-811045513yiv7076709238ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-811045513yiv7076709238ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-811045513 #ygrps-yiv-811045513yiv7076709238 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I just checked and they are there.mj.| 30721|30718|2014-04-12 19:32:13|Aaron|Re: Dock Walking in Kona|Ah  Ok thanks From: "mickeyolaf@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dock Walking in Kona   They are in an album. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1248082617 #ygrps-yiv-1248082617yiv3068958935 #ygrps-yiv-1248082617yiv3068958935ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1248082617 #ygrps-yiv-1248082617yiv3068958935 #ygrps-yiv-1248082617yiv3068958935ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1248082617 | 30722|30718|2014-04-12 19:52:25|Aaron|Re: Dock Walking in Kona|A friend of mine was a part owner in that one and it was docked in Seward, Alaska. The listing on Craigslist say it got damaged on a coral reef and leaks46 ft ALUMINUM SAILBOAT - $20 (kONA)46 ft ALUMINUM SAILBOAT - $20 (kONA)46 FT CUTTER RECENTLY DAMAGED ON REFF. some small holes in bottom, dents and water damage below. boat is drydocked in Kona. Call 907 491 1117View on honolulu.craigslist.orgPreview by Yahoo From: "mickeyolaf@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dock Walking in Kona   They are in an album. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1574294781 #ygrps-yiv-1574294781yiv4889089123 #ygrps-yiv-1574294781yiv4889089123ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1574294781 #ygrps-yiv-1574294781yiv4889089123 #ygrps-yiv-1574294781yiv4889089123ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1574294781 | 30723|30718|2014-04-15 15:40:07|brentswain38|Re: Dock Walking in Kona|Boy that  aliminium sure gouges easily. I wonder how thick the plate is there| 30724|30718|2014-04-19 18:54:48|brentswain38|Re: Dock Walking in Kona|You can  grind the high parts flush with the rest of the plate.Then put a straigth edge across the gouges and slide a dial caliper along i,t measuring the depths of the gouges Subtract that from the thickness of the plate and you have the remaining thickness. I doubt there will be enough missing to have any structural problems.| 30725|30725|2014-04-20 18:05:48|Chris Joseph|L.E.D. Safety Beacons & Reflective Triangle Kits available again!|Hello and Happy Easter to all members that observe this blessed holiday!    I haven't posted for quite a long time, but wanted to let all members (both familiar & new friends) know that I once again have the terrific  L.E.D. Roadflare and Reflective Triangle kits available for sale.  This may be the last inventory I receive, supply has been almost non-existent lately.  Some of you have purchased previously, for which I thank you!      The kits are available with either 1 or 3 D.O.T. approved Reflective Triangles, and include the L.E.D. Beacons and Ballistic Nylon carrying/storage case.  Also have the  "Mini" Beacons for personal use.  These are tremendously useful in an emergency, and have many boating/sailing applications.  Please check out all the great deals at my website:   www.esafesupply.com  Thank you so very much for your time and attention, -Chris| 30726|30725|2014-04-20 22:59:58|Aaron|Re: L.E.D. Safety Beacons & Reflective Triangle Kits available again|Chris This looks like span, Smells like spam, It is spam,  no more spam I get far to much as it is. From: Chris Joseph To: "backyardboatbuilding@yahoogroups.com" ; "beylikduzusualti@yahoogroups.com" ; "build_it_yourself@yahoogroups.com" ; "cal_boats@yahoogroups.com" ; "chumma@yahoogroups.com" ; "columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com" ; "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" ; "f-boats@yahoogroups.com" ; "fun_karachi@yahoogroups.com" ; "iceboating@yahoogroups.com" ; "junkrig@yahoogroups.com" ; "jwbuilders@yahoogroups.com" ; "lightningprotection@yahoogroups.com" ; "lmsrf@yahoogroups.com" ; "lonestarboat@yahoogroups.com" ; "map_authors@yahoogroups.com" ; "mutineer@yahoogroups.com" ; "openboat@yahoogroups.com" ; "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" ; "pelican-sail@yahoogroups.com" ; "sailingblue@yahoogroups.com" ; "sailingonline@yahoogroups.com" ; "sanfranciscosailing@yahoogroups.com" ; "simcocountygaragesalesandsales@yahoogroups.com" ; "singlessailing@yahoogroups.com" ; "srventuring@yahoogroups.com" ; "tartansailing@yahoogroups.com" ; "trailersailing@yahoogroups.com" ; "world-cruising@yahoogroups.com" ; "wwpotter@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 2:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] L.E.D. Safety Beacons & Reflective Triangle Kits available again!   Hello and Happy Easter to all members that observe this blessed holiday!    I haven't posted for quite a long time, but wanted to let all members (both familiar & new friends) know that I once again have the terrific  L.E.D. Roadflare and Reflective Triangle kits available for sale.  This may be the last inventory I receive, supply has been almost non-existent lately.  Some of you have purchased previously, for which I thank you!      The kits are available with either 1 or 3 D.O.T. approved Reflective Triangles, and include the L.E.D. Beacons and Ballistic Nylon carrying/storage case.  Also have the  "Mini" Beacons for personal use.  These are tremendously useful in an emergency, and have many boating/sailing applications.  Please check out all the great deals at my website:   http://www.esafesupply.com/  Thank you so very much for your time and attention, -Chris #ygrps-yiv-666981757 #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979 #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979 -- #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-666981757 #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979 #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-666981757 #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979 #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-666981757 #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979 #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979ygrp-mkp 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#ygrps-yiv-666981757 #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979 #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-666981757 #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979 #ygrps-yiv-666981757yiv2064336979ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-666981757 | 30727|30727|2014-04-23 12:26:57|edward_stoneuk|Anodes and stainless steel trim tab.|Hi Brent,   With regard to the stainless steel trim tab; do you paint it and or put anodes on it to provide protection from galvanic corrosion?  Do you use anodes on the hull and if so how many would you advise.   Thanks,   Ted| 30728|30725|2014-04-24 10:56:50|A H|Re: L.E.D. Safety Beacons & Reflective Triangle Kits available again|I didn't sign up for spam. Please remove me from future mailings. Al Schaefer -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 4/20/14, Chris Joseph wrote: Subject: [origamiboats] L.E.D. Safety Beacons & Reflective Triangle Kits available again! To: "backyardboatbuilding@yahoogroups.com" , "beylikduzusualti@yahoogroups.com" , "build_it_yourself@yahoogroups.com" , "cal_boats@yahoogroups.com" , "chumma@yahoogroups.com" , "columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com" , "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" , "f-boats@yahoogroups.com" , "fun_karachi@yahoogroups.com" , "iceboating@yahoogroups.com" , "junkrig@yahoogroups.com" , "jwbuilders@yahoogroups.com" , "lightningprotection@yahoogroups.com" , "lmsrf@yahoogroups.com" , "lonestarboat@yahoogroups.com" , "map_authors@yahoogroups.com" , "mutineer@yahoogroups.com" , "openboat@yahoogroups.com" , "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" , "pelican-sail@yahoogroups.com" , "sailingblue@yahoogroups.com" , "sailingonline@yahoogroups.com" , "sanfranciscosailing@yahoogroups.com" , "simcocountygaragesalesandsales@yahoogroups.com" , "singlessailing@yahoogroups.com" , "srventuring@yahoogroups.com" , "tartansailing@yahoogroups.com" , "trailersailing@yahoogroups.com" , "world-cruising@yahoogroups.com" , "wwpotter@yahoogroups.com" Received: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 6:05 PM   Hello and Happy Easter to all members that observe this blessed holiday!     I haven't posted for quite a long time, but wanted to let all members (both familiar & new friends) know that I once again have the terrific  L.E.D. Roadflare and Reflective Triangle kits available for sale.  This may be the last inventory I receive, supply has been almost non-existent lately.  Some of you have purchased previously, for which I thank you!      The kits are available with either 1 or 3 D.O.T. approved Reflective Triangles, and include the L.E.D. Beacons and Ballistic Nylon carrying/storage case.  Also have the  "Mini" Beacons for personal use.  These are tremendously useful in an emergency, and have many boating/sailing applications.  Please check out all the great deals at my website:   www.esafesupply.com  Thank you so very much for your time and attention, -Chris | 30729|30727|2014-04-24 15:06:22|brentswain38|Re: Anodes and stainless steel trim tab.|I paint my trimtab , but dont use anodes on it. Sandblasting is the best way to get  paint to stick to stainless. I weld 4- Z3 zinc anodes to my hull, near the top of the twin keels, on the outside. I also put one on the bottom of the rudder. I have stainless bolts welded to the hull to bolt them on, if I cant weld them immediately. Then a small tack on one corner later guarantees contact. Putting a stainless weld around the bolt hole in the strap gets better stainless on stainless contact than  on a rusty steel strap,| 30730|30727|2014-04-24 16:16:05|Hannu Venermo|Re: Anodes and stainless steel trim tab.| Your posts are very, very much appreciated. Afaik, you are the only experienced real builder and designer who does no-nonsense real cruise stuff at reasonable cost. The next is Steve Dashew, again with true data, but at the high end $$ of the market. On 24/04/2014 21:06, brentswain38@... wrote:   I paint my trimtab , but dont use anodes on it. Sandblasting is the best way to get  paint to stick to stainless. I weld 4- Z3 zinc anodes to my hull, near the top of the twin keels, on the outside. I also put one on the bottom of the rudder. I have stainless bolts welded to the hull to bolt them on, if I cant weld them immediately. Then a small tack on one corner later guarantees contact. Putting a stainless weld around the bolt hole in the strap gets better stainless on stainless contact than  on a rusty steel strap, -hanermo (cnc designs) | 30731|1062|2014-04-24 22:21:46|jbsf2004|Book|Brent is your book still $20 + $8 for postage to US?, and is an international postal money order ok?.Thanks| 30732|1062|2014-04-25 18:39:49|brentswain38|Re: Book|Postage just went up. Its $20 , plus $10 for US postage .An international money order is fine, as long as it is international .| 30733|1062|2014-04-25 23:02:14|jbsf2004|Re: Book|Ooops I already mailed it.Ill buy another one or pay you $2 extra when I buy the plans.| 30734|30727|2014-04-26 09:38:09|jhess314|Re: Anodes and stainless steel trim tab.|I don't understand. Are you welding zinc to steel? How do you do that? Stainless steel welding rod? Zinc welding rod? John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I paint my trimtab , but dont use anodes on it. Sandblasting is the best way to get  paint to stick to stainless. I weld 4- Z3 zinc anodes to my hull, near the top of the twin keels, on the outside. I also put one on the bottom of the rudder. I have stainless bolts welded to the hull to bolt them on, if I cant weld them immediately. Then a small tack on one corner later guarantees contact. Putting a stainless weld around the bolt hole in the strap gets better stainless on stainless contact than  on a rusty steel strap,| 30735|30727|2014-04-27 18:10:41|brentswain38|Re: Anodes and stainless steel trim tab.|Many zincs come with a steel flatbar cast inside, the ends poking out. .It is to this you weld . When  you bolt it on, a bit of corrosion around the bolts or bolt holes will insulate it electrically, eliminating the protection it would otherwise give you.  You are dealing with milliamps, easily stopped by even a tiny bit of corrosion.| 30736|30727|2014-04-30 09:10:42|edward_stoneuk|Re: Anodes and stainless steel trim tab.|Many thanks Brent.   Best regards,   Ted| 30737|30737|2014-04-30 19:52:53|jonhackett1958|36' bilge keeler for sale "Tortue"|I'll be listing my Brent Swain 36 footer in a few weeks. I'll include a thorough inventoryThere are some photos in the albums under the title "Tortue"In the meantime, I'm looking for advice on determining an asking price.While much depends on equipment, how is the labor aspect calculated?Are there any recent sales I can refer to?Any help would be appreciated.Alex and Brent have both been aboard my boat.| 30738|30738|2014-05-01 19:36:02|ursus_222|boat hauler for a bilge keeler on Vancouver Island|I recently bought a hull now I need it moved, the guy I talked to before I bought backed out at the last minute. Any recommendations would be appreciated. The boat is sitting on the ground and I have no problems with jacking it up so they can get their trailer under it.CheersVic.| 30739|30738|2014-05-01 23:09:54|Matt Malone|Re: boat hauler for a bilge keeler on Vancouver Island| Are we talking about an unfinished steel hull (not afraid of scratching it), or are we talking about painted or some other material ?How big is the hull?  How much does it weigh ?Does it have steel decks so that if you were to pull on the front with a chain it would keep its shape and come ?If it is a one-time lift and you are in an area where heavy equipment is common, a visit by a crane is not expensive.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: ursus_222@...Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 16:36:02 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] boat hauler for a bilge keeler on Vancouver Island   I recently bought a hull now I need it moved, the guy I talked to before I bought backed out at the last minute. Any recommendations would be appreciated. The boat is sitting on the ground and I have no problems with jacking it up so they can get their trailer under it.CheersVic. | 30740|30738|2014-05-02 13:01:59|nofacey|Re: boat hauler for a bilge keeler on Vancouver Island|Bowline Boat Moving (250)286-5463- works all Vancouver Island- capable of up to 55ft and 25T - moved my beast without blinkingExtremely nice man that moves strangely shaped work boats all the time, he'll figure out the bilge keels too.| 30741|30738|2014-05-02 17:42:11|ursus_222|Re: boat hauler for a bilge keeler on Vancouver Island|It is 90% complete, unpainted and 36' long with bilge keels. I don't know what the weight would be, maybe 9t? The ground is too soft right now for a crane truck to go into the yard and the driveway is a little narrow but nothing a good driver can't handle. I have been hoping to find a boat hauler who is used to doing these boats and willing since we are into their busy season. I had talked to one guy who said it was no problem then he backed out at the last minute.CheersVic| 30742|30738|2014-05-03 01:55:25|ursus_222|Re: boat hauler for a bilge keeler on Vancouver Island|thanks nofacey I will call him tomorrow.cheers Vic| 30743|30738|2014-05-03 02:22:40|Chris Salayka|Re: boat hauler for a bilge keeler on Vancouver Island|Hi  Where are you located? I wouldn't mind taking a look at your boat if you don't mind. I am in Victoria but don't mind a bit of a drive.  Chris On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:55:28 PM, "ursus_222@..." wrote:   thanks nofacey I will call him tomorrow.cheers Vic #ygrps-yiv-2109442155 #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146 #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146 -- #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-2109442155 #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146 #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-2109442155 #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146 #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2109442155 #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146 #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-2109442155 #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146 #ygrps-yiv-2109442155yiv1913358146ygrp-mkp 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Sidney by the McTavish intersection?| 30745|30738|2014-05-03 20:55:51|ursus_222|Re: boat hauler for a bilge keeler on Vancouver Island|Yes.| 30746|30738|2014-05-03 21:09:06|ursus_222|Re: boat hauler for a bilge keeler on Vancouver Island|The boat is in Sidney on Lochside at McTavish. Been there a long time, the owner said it was the first bilge keeler Brent pulled together. I might be at the boat on Monday if that works, it won't be going anywhere for a couple of weeks.Vic| 30747|30738|2014-05-04 18:21:54|Shawn Green|Re: boat hauler for a bilge keeler on Vancouver Island|Cool that something is gonna get done with it. I used to go passed it all the time and always wondered. Before i started building my own i had thought to by that one. The owner told my friend hed sell it for fifty grand and i laughed my ass off.... was it painted on the inside?  | 30748|30738|2014-05-05 14:05:12|ursus_222|Re: boat hauler for a bilge keeler on Vancouver Island| I didn't pay 50 for it, it has a single coat of primer under the foam, almost finished on the inside and he did build everything inside to be easily removable so I will be checking under the foam any where water could have gotten in and I can do a lot of that when it is in the water, the rust on the deck isn't as bad as I thought it would be, there are changes to be made but it is a lot less work then trying to fix the boat I am living on which has a good mast and rigging etc. cheers| 30749|30749|2014-05-06 17:25:48|inter4905|skeg pressure thread|hello everybody,I think we had a discussion relating to the pressure inside the skeg, maybe about a year ago or more,I am trying to find it without success, does someone remember something about it?thanks, Martin.| 30750|30749|2014-05-08 15:47:07|brentswain38|Re: skeg pressure thread|The only guy I knew who had problems with welds breaking on the skeg during testing, was using tap pressure. 80 PSI doesn't sound like much , but multiply that  by the number  of square inches in both sides of the skeg combined, and you have a huge amount of pressure. 5 PSI from a tire pump is all you need for  testing.| 30751|30751|2014-05-08 16:31:54|brentswain38|Long term maintenance|I have read Alvah Simon's  experience with long term maintenance on his boat Roger Henry. It clearly demonstrates the importance of a good paint job with lots of epoxy "INSIDE" something his boat clearly lacked. He mentions salt water siting on longitudinals , causuing severe corrosion, suggesting a lack of adequate epoxy inside.  With sprayfoam insulation, water doesn't sit on longitudinals, it runs over them, and on into the bilge. With a properly built steel boat with proper hatches and ports ,  salt water rarely makes it inside, except in the bilges. Hard to  imagine him wintering over in the arctic,  without sprayfoam insulation . Miserable enough here in BC without sprayfoam!He mentioned using a polyester fabric for insulation. Anything which is not  closed cell on a steel boat is permanently soggy, in cold conditions.Thus keeping the inside permanently soaked in a soggy covering is a a guarantee of further corrosion problems. Is that what he used in the arctic?He mentions corrosion around the ports. With the condensation from the ports wanting to drip down between the insulation  and the steel under them that can be  a problem. That is a good reason to go heavy with epoxy around the ports.We have also gone from wood around the ports to synthetic lumber made from recycled  plastic , which absorbs little water. On one boat I detailed, the owner found a stainless opening port for the middle of the pilot house made in Taiwan , which had a stainless flange on it. We simply welded the flange on to the steel eliminating this problem.Simon mentions corrosion under  thru hull flanges.  Stainless pipe nipples for thru hulls,  welded in, eliminate any thru hull problems  There is nothing hidden.I think most of the problems Simon  mentions could have easily been avoided, had he got his info from someone with long term steel boat experience. | 30752|30751|2014-05-08 16:42:56|Chris Harnan|Re: Long term maintenance|BrentI am a wylo owner but have been a fan of your one line answers for many years. Why go so verbous over insulation. Is not closed cell with an air gap the perfect solution?Hopefully we will meet one day!Kind regardsChris On 8 May 2014, at 22:31, wrote:   I have read Alvah Simon's  experience with long term maintenance on his boat Roger Henry. It clearly demonstrates the importance of a good paint job with lots of epoxy "INSIDE" something his boat clearly lacked. He mentions salt water siting on longitudinals , causuing severe corrosion, suggesting a lack of adequate epoxy inside.  With sprayfoam insulation, water doesn't sit on longitudinals, it runs over them, and on into the bilge. With a properly built steel boat with proper hatches and ports ,  salt water rarely makes it inside, except in the bilges. Hard to  imagine him wintering over in the arctic,  without sprayfoam insulation . Miserable enough here in BC without sprayfoam!He mentioned using a polyester fabric for insulation. Anything which is not  closed cell on a steel boat is permanently soggy, in cold conditions.Thus keeping the inside permanently soaked in a soggy covering is a a guarantee of further corrosion problems. Is that what he used in the arctic?He mentions corrosion around the ports. With the condensation from the ports wanting to drip down between the insulation  and the steel under them that can be  a problem. That is a good reason to go heavy with epoxy around the ports.We have also gone from wood around the ports to synthetic lumber made from recycled  plastic , which absorbs little water. On one boat I detailed, the owner found a stainless opening port for the middle of the pilot house made in Taiwan , which had a stainless flange on it. We simply welded the flange on to the steel eliminating this problem.Simon mentions corrosion under  thru hull flanges.  Stainless pipe nipples for thru hulls,  welded in, eliminate any thru hull problems  There is nothing hidden.I think most of the problems Simon  mentions could have easily been avoided, had he got his info from someone with long term steel boat experience. | 30753|30751|2014-05-10 18:38:10|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|Tried that on my last boat. The steel in the air space, behind the sheet foam, was permanently dripping wet. Blisters were starting to form on the paint. So I spray foamed it and had no further problems.If Ainsley's boat has foam in the bilge, it should all be scraped out and the steel epoxied. Foam in the bllge, even closed cell,  will becomTried to give steel boat information on sailnet, but some wierd old guy named Perry started using  the steel boat  discussion to post pictures of his personal obsesion, little boys , (which I am sure other old wierdos, who are into little boys appreciate) He  was getting disgusting . So I gave up on that site. At least  here  we stick to steel boat related questions. People with steel boat questions can always   can find me here| 30754|30751|2014-05-10 18:43:46|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|This library computer has a way of deleting  whole sentences at random. Does the same on all Vancouver Island compute, has for months . The bilge on any steel boat should not have spray foam in it. Regardless of how closed cell the foam may be, it l eventually become waterlogged. The foam there should be scraped out and the steel heavily coated with epoxy. Insulating the underside of the floor does the trick.| 30755|30751|2014-05-11 08:45:43|James Pronk|Re: Long term maintenance|If you have twin keels and a bilge tank between the keels is the bilge fore and aft of this tank? Is this where water collects? Do you put a sheet styrofoam on top of the tank?Thank youJames From: brentswain38@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Long term maintenance Sent: Sat, May 10, 2014 10:43:46 PM   This library computer has a way of deleting  whole sentences at random. Does the same on all Vancouver Island compute, has for months . The bilge on any steel boat should not have spray foam in it. Regardless of how closed cell the foam may be, it l eventually become waterlogged. The foam there should be scraped out and the steel heavily coated with epoxy. Insulating the underside of the floor does the trick. | 30757|30751|2014-05-11 14:15:32|joohak|Re: Long term maintenance|There is three water collecting "bilges" in my plans. Small one front of water tank, one between water and fuel tanks and last under engine. Joose| 30758|30751|2014-05-11 15:10:48|ursus_222|Re: Long term maintenance| Brent Ainsley did foam the bilge so I will remove part of the floor and get rid of as much foam as I can. He also foamed most of the interior so when I start welding on mooring bits I will have to strip away the foam, the stern shouldn’t be too difficult to add mooring bits but I don’t think I can add the plate on the bottom to reinforce the one on the bow so I may have to find a way to secure it to the deck, I will have a better idea when I get the ceiling and foam out of the way. Vic| 30759|30751|2014-05-11 17:57:54|joohak|Re: Long term maintenance|I plan blast and prime inside hull plates before building and decks after welding of beams. I worry about rusting of unpainted areas between L-bars or flatbars and plating. Does epoxy seal these areas so good that there is no reason to worry? I know that traditional boat building method is blast after all welding but they say too that these boats rust from inside to out.Joose| 30761|30751|2014-05-11 20:23:24|opuspaul|Re: Long term maintenance|I used to read boatdesign.net all the time but gave up several years ago.   The amount of nonsense from self-styled experts is breathtaking.  A lot of people will make bold statements who obviously have no knowledge....they go on and on and drown out any useful bits of info to the point that it is a complete waste of time.   I don't know how I would get anything useful from it if I was actually designing or building a boat.The thread you point to is no different.  I read several pages, but I won't read any further since my time is more important and I doubt I will learn anything if the following pages are anything like first few.   I am not sure what the problem is between you and Brent but it looks like it is of a personal nature and has nothing to do with boats.  Too bad :(.  Brent isn't perfect and we may disagree on a lot of things (particularly when it comes to lifestyle) but one thing I know is that his designs and his ideas work.  I have spent well over 25 years building, living, and sailing one of his 36 footers in some very challenging and tough conditions and I have yet to see a cruising boat that can do what she does....Brent and Robert, isn't that what we should be talking about?| 30763|30751|2014-05-11 21:33:47|opuspaul|Re: Long term maintenance|I will ignore your personal remarks and disagree with the others.   Brent has really only had a few designs and I don't think he has ever said that you can make any shape you want in Origami.   All boats are compromises.  What you can do, however is make them as rough or as fancy as you wish.  I have seen some really crappy results but this is not Brent's fault.  This can happen to any designer who has his designs home built.  For a prime example of this, just look at some of the Roberts designs for sale.  It is amazing what builders will do.....Anyway, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I may be biased but I have had many compliments on my boat and as far as I know, nobody has ever called it ugly.  I personally think there is beauty in something that is purposeful, workman-like and functional and also hopefully retains a nice sheer-line.  I go for a work boat look that works for long term cruising without using a glossy finish or filler that serves no purpose.   After almost 30 years, my boat still looks pretty good and if a local fishing boat scrapes my topsides, I won't go nuts since it is easily repaired.  Other than a bottom job, it is still on the original high build epoxy with just a new house paint top coat.     OpusNZ OpusNZ Explore OpusNZ's photostream on Flickr. This user has 179 photos on Flickr. View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo  | 30764|30751|2014-05-11 21:54:45|James Pronk|Re: Long term maintenance|I see you have never met Brent. My husband, two boys and myself had the opportunity last summer to spend some time with Brent. He left his anchorage and brought his boat into the government dock so we could have a tour. He is a quiet, kind, knowledgeable man. He talked to my husband at great length about all the details of his boat, giving many valuable tips and advice. Even things he would do differently next time. He made hot chocolate for our boys. He then came ashore with us, giving us a tour of the island, and even coming to a beach to go swimming with us. He is a lovely man. I know my husband will be contacting him as he starts to build our boat and I have complete trust in the advice Brent gives. Nancy From: opusnz@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance Sent: Mon, May 12, 2014 1:33:47 AM   I will ignore your personal remarks and disagree with the others.   Brent has really only had a few designs and I don't think he has ever said that you can make any shape you want in Origami.   All boats are compromises.  What you can do, however is make them as rough or as fancy as you wish.  I have seen some really crappy results but this is not Brent's fault.  This can happen to any designer who has his designs home built.  For a prime example of this, just look at some of the Roberts designs for sale.  It is amazing what builders will do.....Anyway, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I may be biased but I have had many compliments on my boat and as far as I know, nobody has ever called it ugly.  I personally think there is beauty in something that is purposeful, workman-like and functional and also hopefully retains a nice sheer-line.  I go for a work boat look that works for long term cruising without using a glossy finish or filler that serves no purpose.   After almost 30 years, my boat still looks pretty good and if a local fishing boat scrapes my topsides, I won't go nuts since it is easily repaired.  Other than a bottom job, it is still on the original high build epoxy with just a new house paint top coat.     OpusNZ OpusNZ Explore OpusNZ's photostream on Flickr. This user has 179 photos on Flickr. View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   | 30765|30751|2014-05-12 04:31:56|Hannu Venermo|Re: Long term maintenance| +1 2nd On 12/05/2014 03:54, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote: and I have complete trust in the advice Brent gives. Nancy -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 30766|30751|2014-05-12 07:05:04|Robert Jones|Re: Long term maintenance|I tend to agree with you on BD Forum. And, Ido not frequent sailnet, but i will say that i appreciate this forum for not having the porno crap that many have. Thank you to all the moderators! Great job in a spam filled world!! robert jones On , "Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   +1 2nd On 12/05/2014 03:54, James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats] wrote: and I have complete trust in the advice Brent gives. 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li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-269722137 | 30767|30751|2014-05-12 07:32:06|James Pronk|Re: Long term maintenance|So Robert, how long does it take to pull together a boat of your design? How many hours of welding are involved in one of your designs?Thank you,James From: roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance Sent: Mon, May 12, 2014 12:35:55 AM   Paul:I think you are right. But I have grown weary of the BS lies. Implying I am a pedophile. Are you kidding me. Does he really need to stoop to that level. Is there no professional integrity in the guy. Talk about your work. That should be enough. But BS prefers the personal attack and he makes up his own reality. He is a liar.BS is a low life and as such I have zero respect for him. He produces boats that are "plain" at best and usually ugly. Steel boats can be beautiful. But he is not enough of a designer to control the process.He is just BS a snake oil salesman and fraud.If that is fine with you guys then go for it.I hold myself to higher standard.The boat design thread pretty much says it all if you really take the time to read it objectively. | 30768|30751|2014-05-12 10:03:02|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|James:I have done a few steel boats but the material doesn't work well for my design vision. If I want a metal boat I prefer alu. I also prefer to work with a skilled yard. I like my boats to be yachts and show sensitivity to performance and styling goals. In short I want a world class, good looking product. I have nothing against home built steel boats when they come from a reputable designer who shows design skills. I respect the various approaches and I make no value judgments on the character of owners. As another designer friend of mine once said, "Different boats for different folks".I like this alu boat of mine very much. It is a full time family cruising home for a German family. It was recently featured in the German magazine YACHT.[URL=http://s950.photobucket.com/user/rhpbob/media/Marlin3_zps2600775e.jpg.html][IMG]http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad347/rhpbob/Marlin3_zps2600775e.jpg[/IMG][/URL]My time lately has been spent on two new 63'ers. One grp in N. Carolina and the other, FRANCIS LEE, built here in red cedar strip planking, steel keel floor structure, composite deck and a fully cored, lightweight interior. We have been racing this boat and so far in two races we have two first to finish's and two first on corrected time's. Not a bad record for a new "cruising" boat.[URL=http://s950.photobucket.com/user/rhpbob/media/JanPhoto_zpsb93b142a.jpg.html][IMG]http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad347/rhpbob/JanPhoto_zpsb93b142a.jpg[/IMG][/URL]My all carbon ICON just broike the record in the Oregon Offshore race by 4 hours and 50 minutes smashing the record that has stood since 2000. They averaged 15 knots for the 185 mile course.[URL=http://s950.photobucket.com/user/rhpbob/media/ICONVanIsle_zpsac860a3a.jpg.html][IMG]http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad347/rhpbob/ICONVanIsle_zpsac860a3a.jpg[/IMG][/URL]Steel would not have worked for any of these boats. Just too heavy. I like the design freedom that modern materials afford me. But I keep my eye on all materials when done well.| 30769|30751|2014-05-12 10:28:56|Aaron|Re: Long term maintenance|RobertHow can people compare the simplistic design of a BS boat to anything else?What is the cost of the boats you have mentioned compared to the BS 36 or other designed boats that those of us that choose to be home builders can afford to build, I am building a BS36' maybe someday I will get done. I know that Brent's designs don't have all of the details that you or most any other yacht designer includes in there packages.   I looked as many designs as I could trying to decide if I could build a 30' or bigger boat. I started with a 20' aluminum boat designed by Ken Hankinson. 2 years later I knew I would never be able to complete a sailboat with conventional methods frame and sheet. When I found the origami designed hull I found myself willing to try it.   Aaron From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 6:03 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   James:I have done a few steel boats but the material doesn't work well for my design vision. If I want a metal boat I prefer alu. I also prefer to work with a skilled yard. I like my boats to be yachts and show sensitivity to performance and styling goals. In short I want a world class, good looking product. I have nothing against home built steel boats when they come from a reputable designer who shows design skills. I respect the various approaches and I make no value judgments on the character of owners. As another designer friend of mine once said, "Different boats for different folks".I like this alu boat of mine very much. It is a full time family cruising home for a German family. It was recently featured in the German magazine YACHT.[URL=http://s950.photobucket.com/user/rhpbob/media/Marlin3_zps2600775e.jpg.html][IMG]http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad347/rhpbob/Marlin3_zps2600775e.jpg[/IMG][/URL]My time lately has been spent on two new 63'ers. One grp in N. Carolina and the other, FRANCIS LEE, built here in red cedar strip planking, steel keel floor structure, composite deck and a fully cored, lightweight interior. We have been racing this boat and so far in two races we have two first to finish's and two first on corrected time's. Not a bad record for a new "cruising" boat.[URL=http://s950.photobucket.com/user/rhpbob/media/JanPhoto_zpsb93b142a.jpg.html][IMG]http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad347/rhpbob/JanPhoto_zpsb93b142a.jpg[/IMG][/URL]My all carbon ICON just broike the record in the Oregon Offshore race by 4 hours and 50 minutes smashing the record that has stood since 2000. They averaged 15 knots for the 185 mile course.[URL=http://s950.photobucket.com/user/rhpbob/media/ICONVanIsle_zpsac860a3a.jpg.html][IMG]http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad347/rhpbob/ICONVanIsle_zpsac860a3a.jpg[/IMG][/URL]Steel would not have worked for any of these boats. Just too heavy. I like the design freedom that modern materials afford me. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2067975981 #ygrps-yiv-2067975981yiv6041075269 #ygrps-yiv-2067975981yiv6041075269ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-2067975981 #ygrps-yiv-2067975981yiv6041075269 #ygrps-yiv-2067975981yiv6041075269ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-2067975981 | 30770|30751|2014-05-12 10:37:35|Hannu Venermo|Re: Long term maintenance|This is the current "looks and money" filosophy, mainly driven by overly expensive boats, harbours and accessories. Nothing wrong with it, its just not appropriate to this forum, imo. The boat looks nice. Most boats like that are not really truly suited for cruising and full time liveaboard use. They use systems that are flimsy, expensive, complex and weak, when subjected to continuous use. Examples would be 1. anything sold in a yacht store, like blocks, winches, anchors. 2. Waste management. 3. Batteries. 4. Anchors, rodes, tows, mooring bitts. 1-4. are usually very much undersized for real-world use. There is no real provision for waste management in real world use. Anchors, bitts, rodes are all undersized by about 2 sizes. Batteries are too small. As such, for the vast majority of boats not built in steel and-or for continuous liveaboard and cruising use, 90% of the too-expensive "systems" will have failed within 3 years. Often, within a single 2-3 week sail across the atlantic. They are great fun for occasional use, with very high costs in terms of maintenance, depreciation and bang/buck. If you look at any sailboat test with 6+ boats, likely only one in siz maybe will not have experienced a systems failure on a single atlantic crossing. Often people who expouse "world class" do not appreciate comparisons involving costs, bang/buck or reliability in real world conditions ie. permanently out of marinas, in third world conditions, with variable-to-weak infrastructure. A welder and 200$ will fix most anything on a cruising steel boat anywhere in the world. A marina, 2000-10.000$ and 1-6 weeks will usually fix most thing in a fiberglass yacht, often having waited 2-3 weeks for an obscure part, costing 1000 at source, 1000 in customs, and 1000 in transports costs. Of course, paying the 30.000 $ (more, perhaps ?) (extra ?) cost for the fairing and painting makes it looks nice. Just to put the thread on track, I posted some example of long term maintenance, as it applies to cruising boats and origami boats in particular. Just my opinion, fwiw. On 12/05/2014 16:03, roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats] wrote: > > James: > > I have done a few steel boats but the material doesn't work well for > my design vision. If I want a metal boat I prefer alu. I also prefer > to work with a skilled yard. I like my boats to be yachts and show > sensitivity to performance and styling goals. In short I want a world > class, good looking product. I have nothing against home built steel > boats when they come from a reputable designer who shows design > skills. I respect the various approaches and I make no value judgments > on the character of owners. As another designer friend of mine once > said, "Different boats for different folks". -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 30771|30751|2014-05-12 11:10:34|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Aaron:There is no comparison with the cost of my boats and BS boats. I totally understand the appeal of the low cost boat. My own boat, that I sold 6 mos ago was a $15,000 26'er. But if I am going to design boats I want them to be very nicely built. My three current projects are all over a million dollars and one is well over two million. It's a small group of people who can afford these yachts and I am grateful to them that they chose me to design for them. These are marvelous boats and I would be careful before making ignorant generalities about them. I am confident that all will do exactly the job they were designed to do and do it very well. But, no question they are about as far from BS boats as they could possibly be.This is clearly not the place for me. But if BS posts anymore ridiculous personal attacks like the ones that got him booted from Sailknet, I'll be back. I'd like to keep things focused on design and build issues. I am interested in what goes on here. I am a boat lover and my personal taste is not restricted. I am a fan of well designed boats regardless of the material.| 30772|30751|2014-05-12 11:11:05|Matt Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| Robert H Perry:Is this you?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Perry_%28yacht_designer%29I know a little about structures.  I understand the difference between tension, compression, internal pressures, external pressures, longerons and ribs, or longitudinals and transverse structure.   I also studied something called shear flow.  It seems to be something the classically-trained naval architects never seem to mention.  I am sure Brent does not know shear flow by name.  He did however use one good example: if you take a box and tape it shut, why does it seem to be far more strong and stiff?  That tells me Brent has an appreciation of shear flow.  Shear flow is what gives closed sections and 3D shells apparently greater stiffness and strength.  This also explains why Brent believes that longitudinals (may in some geometries) provide transverse stiffness, and why the naval architects cannot understand that.   Shear flow in a closed structure is the coupling between longitudinal and transverse stiffness.   If one does not calculate shear flow, the two will seem independent.Now, shear flow is a tricky calculation, even harder on 3D curved shells (I know, I have calculated it).  I fully understand how the pre-computers methods of building steel boats found ways to build safe boats without finite element methods that did thin plate analyses with elements that modelled in-plane shears.  Not all finite element methods properly account for that.  Even the ones that do, may not account for plasticity relieving stress concentrations and 3D shapes changing very slightly.  A tiny amount of plastic relaxation can completely change the stress patterns in a 3D shell because of shear flow.   But, I am not going to argue with what works (traditional building methods).   Adding transverse stiffness by adding transverse structure is much easier to calculate, and, it also appeals to me as easy and conservative, so, I would in general do it.   However, there is plenty to be said for what has appeared to work well in the ocean over many builds, using a different method.   Yes, "unanalyzed" by 20th century methods would make me nervous if this were the first boat of any particular size.  I read on the metal boat thread where one of Brent's detractors admitted the 26' probably met scantling-equivalent strength requirements.  A lot of them have been built and sailed so, they seem to have met an important test.  At the same time, I have heard Brent talk of a 60' orgami, of which there is only one I believe, and unfortunately,  I am not convinced Brent has his mathematical scaling correct.  Actually, someone who read Brent's book and posted to metal boats pointed out a particular mistake in a scaling formula.  There is no way I want to be the first sailing an orgami 60'.  I think it was MikeJohns who proposed a particular analysis on that 60'er, one where the bow buries into a large ocean wave.  I know exactly why that would be an important and obvious analysis to do.  I am not convinced a 60' boat without internal framing would do well at all on that analysis.  I appreciate that some members on metal boats have offered to analyze Brent's design, particularly MikeJohn using finite elements.  I appreciate they have asked Brent for his designs for free, which he has declined.  I appreciate that Brent does not precisely know the final outside 3 dimensional dimensions of his boats because he works from the precise two dimensional dimensions on the flat plate and then pulls them together.  I understand how this makes naval architects very nervous because 3D dimensions is where they start.  However, after studying proper structural analysis, what naval architects do can only be described as, approximate and sufficient.  Its largest claim to validity is that it has been developed and backed up by history.   Naturally, regulatory, safety and insurance interests support what is known to work and are skeptical, or even critical of what is different.  Right now, I can see why there is so much animus and argument.Yes, at some point, the discussion will always get around to "frames first versus frames after".   Again, because Brent does not know the precise 3D dimensions of his boats, the frames after would seem to be a process of custom cutting each piece based on measurements.  I learned about a jog stick and suddenly that did not seem to be nearly as challenging.  In contrast, the frames-first group likes to talk about sending out all their dimensions to a steel cutting place and having everything pre-cut for them and delivered to the fab shop -- dividing the job between cutting and welding.  I sure appreciate how that is handy and neat.  But I really do not see the structural problem of doing the frames afterward, if one does "sufficient" framing.  A 60' boat is plenty big enough to have a temporary metal working shop in it.   I say "sufficient" because only the sea can judge what is truly sufficient.  The naval architects, being careful, will have a definition of "sufficient" such that "sufficient" > sufficient and they will sign their names and reputations to that promise -- it comes with being a professional.   They should appreciate that there are different definitions of "sufficient" that can be > sufficient, yet, not the same as their "sufficient".   Anything that has proven a sufficient history of working must fit this definition.  If the naval architects were to examine only the history of the Brent Swain 26', would they have any basis to judge it insufficient?  I agree with one of the posters on metal boats, the 60'er, sailing in coastal water, may not have been tested enough yet to be sure by a test of history.  Without a test of history, what does it have?  Brent's experience with smaller boats and his non-analytical intuition.  For me the jury is still out on that.    But then again, my little boat, that I think it just right to sail on a 40 km-sized lake, has been taken by others offshore from Florida to the Bahamas.   In practice, on any boat, I would be inclined to use my knowledge and experience to take small steps that I think would improve a design, whether it came from Brent or an naval architect.   For instance, for reasons of shear flow, I would skin some of the frames and call them bulkheads and put in doors with their lower frame elevated 18 inches from the sole.  But that is just me and my brand of nervousness.  No one need agree with me.   Yes, orgami as Brent does it, does include cold-working the hull skin into some shapes, and there will be residual stresses.   If one does frame first, yes, the deformations in each plate can be smaller, but still it is cold working.   With more seams in the frames-first, there are also more weld stresses.  But the approximate and sufficient, history-proven method of designing boats has found ways to make sure that is not a problem, without actually directly calculating, at the scale of a crack growth, what those stresses are.  Educated people make good guesses, but still the proof is what does not crack in use, and the history of service.  Yes, people were nervous about the cold-working of the steel and the residual stresses in orgami, and some might speculate about banana unzippering of orgami hulls.  But as time goes on, history seems to be suggesting, in the way Brent has done it, that seems not to have been a problem, at least on his more numerous, widely travelled builds.  I will strongly caution other welders and would-be boat designers to be very careful.  The naval architects are not wrong to be cautious about the next previously unknown orgami design -- even just an increase in length.  These educated people have been educated to avoid future problems based on past problems.   Brent should appreciate that, there are failures that these rules have been based on.  Those in naval architecture should appreciate, that those rules and guidelines, generated in an environment that lacked the ability to fully analyze, had to be conservative, in some cases very conservative.  This means that apparently violating a design rule does not guarantee failure.    Those welders considering the next previously unknown orgami design may very well encounter failure.  While it does not seem fair to Brent that this will reflect on Brent, it will, because their method has also ignored any even approximate mathematical calculation that is well founded in physics, when approximate methods are well known and ever-more accurate methods are becoming available.   When Brent says, "my proven designs of particular lengths have this particular history", his case is strong.  When Brent says origami (in the absence of any physics-based calculations) is better than the old method then, he becomes the enabler for the next designer who may encounter failure.  This scares the naval architects.  They cannot accept Brent for fear of creating more, some of whom will kill people, even if Brent has somehow worked it out correctly for a few designs.  Yes, maybe Brent can just look at these other designs and point out the week spots faster than a supercomputer -- great cathedrals were built long before Calculus, but, the oga-booga math used to do it, and the people are gone.  Brent will not be around forever, and, he is leaving no record in an analytical form to assist other designers to adapt his method.   This is why science and in particular physics and math are used -- to advance the art.  By rejecting any post-design analysis of say the 26', Brent is not helping orgami as philosophy.    Fortunately for Brent, he is building a history as well, a history that it seems likely will exist after he is gone and can no longer be dismissed for single man trying to make money from it.   If he would stop talking about big boats, and consider some post-design analysis, I think history will judge him well.  (He might also learn for instance that some aspect of integrated tankage was far more important to the design than he thought, and thickening a few plates might make the overall design significantly better.)  In 20 years, when proper 3D thin shell analysis can be done in an app in an Ipad like device, and 3D lines can be automatically extracted by photogrammetry using the built-in camera, and model creation can similarly be done by photographic analysis of frames and longerons, I think, real mathematics will judge Brent's smaller designs well.  If Brent lived in that time, where the analysis is in his pocket, he would not be nearly as controversial, and likely no one would know him.  Any welder could then make a boat in any order and get the thumbs up from their future Ipad.    Until then, if:  - the naval architect can explain the strength and stiffness of a taped cardboard box, - the naval architect could appreciate that traditional analysis was approximate and by necessity conservative, - the naval architect could appreciate that even modern numerical analyses do not all account for all the stresses, and do not all account for plasticity relieving stress concentrations, and 3D shape will change with loading and most analyses cannot track that and shape changes can reinforce the structure.... - the naval architect could appreciate that a welder may "guess right" or intuit accurately and may accumulate a history of service,  - Brent could appreciate why ants are small,  - Brent could appreciate why the Spruce Goose was the largest plane ever made, - Brent could appreciate why there is such a thing as the largest plane ever made,     Then I think the discussion might converge.  Until then it only seems likely to diverge, as it did on the metal boat forums.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 12 May 2014 04:32:05 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   So Robert, how long does it take to pull together a boat of your design? How many hours of welding are involved in one of your designs?Thank you,James From: roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance Sent: Mon, May 12, 2014 12:35:55 AM   Paul:I think you are right. But I have grown weary of the BS lies. Implying I am a pedophile. Are you kidding me. Does he really need to stoop to that level. Is there no professional integrity in the guy. Talk about your work. That should be enough. But BS prefers the personal attack and he makes up his own reality. He is a liar.BS is a low life and as such I have zero respect for him. He produces boats that are "plain" at best and usually ugly. Steel boats can be beautiful. But he is not enough of a designer to control the process.He is just BS a snake oil salesman and fraud.If that is fine with you guys then go for it.I hold myself to higher standard.The boat design thread pretty much says it all if you really take the time to read it objectively. | 30773|30751|2014-05-12 11:25:29|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Matt:Yes, that is me. I enjoyed reading your post. Not sure I understood the last part though.| 30774|30774|2014-05-12 11:31:17|shaneduncan206@yahoo.com|Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance|I'm have a degree in mechanical engineering, have built a BS 31 am sailing in right now, I have made a 3D model in CAD / Rino a friend and I are doing so finite element analyse, its not my area of expertise but cad has some pretty user friendly finite element software, so far its looks pretty good.sent from my Telstra NEXTGâ„¢ handset----- Reply message -----From: "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenanceDate: Mon, May 12, 2014 11:11 PMRobert H Perry:Is this you?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Perry_%28yacht_designer%29I know a little about structures.  I understand the difference between tension, compression, internal pressures, external pressures, longerons and ribs, or longitudinals and transverse structure.   I also studied something called shear flow.  It seems to be something the classically-trained naval architects never seem to mention.  I am sure Brent does not know shear flow by name.  He did however use one good example: if you take a box and tape it shut, why does it seem to be far more strong and stiff?  That tells me Brent has an appreciation of shear flow.  Shear flow is what gives closed sections and 3D shells apparently greater stiffness and strength.  This also explains why Brent believes that longitudinals (may in some geometries) provide transverse stiffness, and why the naval architects cannot understand that.   Shear flow in a closed structure is the coupling between longitudinal and transverse stiffness.   If one does not calculate shear flow, the two will seem independent.Now, shear flow is a tricky calculation, even harder on 3D curved shells (I know, I have calculated it).  I fully understand how the pre-computers methods of building steel boats found ways to build safe boats without finite element methods that did thin plate analyses with elements that modelled in-plane shears.  Not all finite element methods properly account for that.  Even the ones that do, may not account for plasticity relieving stress concentrations and 3D shapes changing very slightly.  A tiny amount of plastic relaxation can completely change the stress patterns in a 3D shell because of shear flow.   But, I am not going to argue with what works (traditional building methods).   Adding transverse stiffness by adding transverse structure is much easier to calculate, and, it also appeals to me as easy and conservative, so, I would in general do it.   However, there is plenty to be said for what has appeared to work well in the ocean over many builds, using a different method.   Yes, "unanalyzed" by 20th century methods would make me nervous if this were the first boat of any particular size.  I read on the metal boat thread where one of Brent's detractors admitted the 26' probably met scantling-equivalent strength requirements.  A lot of them have been built and sailed so, they seem to have met an important test.  At the same time, I have heard Brent talk of a 60' orgami, of which there is only one I believe, and unfortunately,  I am not convinced Brent has his mathematical scaling correct.  Actually, someone who read Brent's book and posted to metal boats pointed out a particular mistake in a scaling formula.  There is no way I want to be the first sailing an orgami 60'.  I think it was MikeJohns who proposed a particular analysis on that 60'er, one where the bow buries into a large ocean wave.  I know exactly why that would be an important and obvious analysis to do.  I am not convinced a 60' boat without internal framing would do well at all on that analysis.  I appreciate that some members on metal boats have offered to analyze Brent's design, particularly MikeJohn using finite elements.  I appreciate they have asked Brent for his designs for free, which he has declined.  I appreciate that Brent does not precisely know the final outside 3 dimensional dimensions of his boats because he works from the precise two dimensional dimensions on the flat plate and then pulls them together.  I understand how this makes naval architects very nervous because 3D dimensions is where they start.  However, after studying proper structural analysis, what naval architects do can only be described as, approximate and sufficient.  Its largest claim to validity is that it has been developed and backed up by history.   Naturally, regulatory, safety and insurance interests support what is known to work and are skeptical, or even critical of what is different.  Right now, I can see why there is so much animus and argument.Yes, at some point, the discussion will always get around to "frames first versus frames after".   Again, because Brent does not know the precise 3D dimensions of his boats, the frames after would seem to be a process of custom cutting each piece based on measurements.  I learned about a jog stick and suddenly that did not seem to be nearly as challenging.  In contrast, the frames-first group likes to talk about sending out all their dimensions to a steel cutting place and having everything pre-cut for them and delivered to the fab shop -- dividing the job between cutting and welding.  I sure appreciate how that is handy and neat.  But I really do not see the structural problem of doing the frames afterward, if one does "sufficient" framing.  A 60' boat is plenty big enough to have a temporary metal working shop in it.   I say "sufficient" because only the sea can judge what is truly sufficient.  The naval architects, being careful, will have a definition of "sufficient" such that "sufficient" > sufficient and they will sign their names and reputations to that promise -- it comes with being a professional.   They should appreciate that there are different definitions of "sufficient" that can be > sufficient, yet, not the same as their "sufficient".   Anything that has proven a sufficient history of working must fit this definition.  If the naval architects were to examine only the history of the Brent Swain 26', would they have any basis to judge it insufficient?  I agree with one of the posters on metal boats, the 60'er, sailing in coastal water, may not have been tested enough yet to be sure by a test of history.  Without a test of history, what does it have?  Brent's experience with smaller boats and his non-analytical intuition.  For me the jury is still out on that.    But then again, my little boat, that I think it just right to sail on a 40 km-sized lake, has been taken by others offshore from Florida to the Bahamas.   In practice, on any boat, I would be inclined to use my knowledge and experience to take small steps that I think would improve a design, whether it came from Brent or an naval architect.   For instance, for reasons of shear flow, I would skin some of the frames and call them bulkheads and put in doors with their lower frame elevated 18 inches from the sole.  But that is just me and my brand of nervousness.  No one need agree with me.   Yes, orgami as Brent does it, does include cold-working the hull skin into some shapes, and there will be residual stresses.   If one does frame first, yes, the deformations in each plate can be smaller, but still it is cold working.   With more seams in the frames-first, there are also more weld stresses.  But the approximate and sufficient, history-proven method of designing boats has found ways to make sure that is not a problem, without actually directly calculating, at the scale of a crack growth, what those stresses are.  Educated people make good guesses, but still the proof is what does not crack in use, and the history of service.  Yes, people were nervous about the cold-working of the steel and the residual stresses in orgami, and some might speculate about banana unzippering of orgami hulls.  But as time goes on, history seems to be suggesting, in the way Brent has done it, that seems not to have been a problem, at least on his more numerous, widely travelled builds.  I will strongly caution other welders and would-be boat designers to be very careful.  The naval architects are not wrong to be cautious about the next previously unknown orgami design -- even just an increase in length.  These educated people have been educated to avoid future problems based on past problems.   Brent should appreciate that, there are failures that these rules have been based on.  Those in naval architecture should appreciate, that those rules and guidelines, generated in an environment that lacked the ability to fully analyze, had to be conservative, in some cases very conservative.  This means that apparently violating a design rule does not guarantee failure.    Those welders considering the next previously unknown orgami design may very well encounter failure.  While it does not seem fair to Brent that this will reflect on Brent, it will, because their method has also ignored any even approximate mathematical calculation that is well founded in physics, when approximate methods are well known and ever-more accurate methods are becoming available.   When Brent says, "my proven designs of particular lengths have this particular history", his case is strong.  When Brent says origami (in the absence of any physics-based calculations) is better than the old method then, he becomes the enabler for the next designer who may encounter failure.  This scares the naval architects.  They cannot accept Brent for fear of creating more, some of whom will kill people, even if Brent has somehow worked it out correctly for a few designs.  Yes, maybe Brent can just look at these other designs and point out the week spots faster than a supercomputer -- great cathedrals were built long before Calculus, but, the oga-booga math used to do it, and the people are gone.  Brent will not be around forever, and, he is leaving no record in an analytical form to assist other designers to adapt his method.   This is why science and in particular physics and math are used -- to advance the art.  By rejecting any post-design analysis of say the 26', Brent is not helping orgami as philosophy.    Fortunately for Brent, he is building a history as well, a history that it seems likely will exist after he is gone and can no longer be dismissed for single man trying to make money from it.   If he would stop talking about big boats, and consider some post-design analysis, I think history will judge him well.  (He might also learn for instance that some aspect of integrated tankage was far more important to the design than he thought, and thickening a few plates might make the overall design significantly better.)  In 20 years, when proper 3D thin shell analysis can be done in an app in an Ipad like device, and 3D lines can be automatically extracted by photogrammetry using the built-in camera, and model creation can similarly be done by photographic analysis of frames and longerons, I think, real mathematics will judge Brent's smaller designs well.  If Brent lived in that time, where the analysis is in his pocket, he would not be nearly as controversial, and likely no one would know him.  Any welder could then make a boat in any order and get the thumbs up from their future Ipad.    Until then, if: - the naval architect can explain the strength and stiffness of a taped cardboard box, - the naval architect could appreciate that traditional analysis was approximate and by necessity conservative, - the naval architect could appreciate that even modern numerical analyses do not all account for all the stresses, and do not all account for plasticity relieving stress concentrations, and 3D shape will change with loading and most analyses cannot track that and shape changes can reinforce the structure.... - the naval architect could appreciate that a welder may "guess right" or intuit accurately and may accumulate a history of service, - Brent could appreciate why ants are small, - Brent could appreciate why the Spruce Goose was the largest plane ever made, - Brent could appreciate why there is such a thing as the largest plane ever made,     Then I think the discussion might converge.  Until then it only seems likely to diverge, as it did on the metal boat forums.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 12 May 2014 04:32:05 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance                        So Robert, how long does it take to pull together a boat of your design?  How many hours of welding are involved in one of your designs?Thank you,James                                                                                                                                                                                    From:                                                        roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats] ;                                                                                        To:                                                         ;                                                                                                                                                                Subject:                                                        [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance                                                                                        Sent:                                                        Mon, May 12, 2014 12:35:55 AM                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Paul:I think you are right. But I have grown weary of the BS lies. Implying I am a pedophile. Are you kidding me. Does he really need to stoop to that level. Is there no professional integrity in the guy. Talk about your work. That should be enough. But BS prefers the personal attack and he makes up his own reality. He is a liar.BS is a low life and as such I have zero respect for him. He produces boats that are "plain" at best and usually ugly. Steel boats can be beautiful. But he is not enough of a designer to control the process.He is just BS a snake oil salesman and fraud.If that is fine with you guys then go for it.I hold myself to higher standard.The boat design thread pretty much says it all if you really take the time to read it objectively.                                                                                                                                                                                      | 30775|30749|2014-05-12 12:18:11|mountain man|Re: skeg pressure thread| Brent,What about the pressure from the engine coolant system?MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: brentswain38@...Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 12:47:07 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: skeg pressure thread   The only guy I knew who had problems with welds breaking on the skeg during testing, was using tap pressure. 80 PSI doesn't sound like much , but multiply that  by the number  of square inches in both sides of the skeg combined, and you have a huge amount of pressure. 5 PSI from a tire pump is all you need for  testing. | 30776|30749|2014-05-12 13:05:09|joohak|Re: skeg pressure thread|Common engines have open expansion tanks so pressure in cooling system are small. If there are more pressure you have broken sylinder head gasget.Joose| 30777|30774|2014-05-12 13:42:33|heretic_37ft|Re: Long term maintenance|For sailing in Hawaii a BS36 is better than anything fiberglass or wood.  Opinion.Moored at Ala Wai for the last 15 years.| 30778|30751|2014-05-12 15:05:12|Matt Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| Robert,This is how structures, including a lot of bridges were made with pinned structures:http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/pa/pa2200/pa2213/photos/356303pv.jpgBridge engineers then lacked confidence and the computational ability to analyze bending moments in riveted redundant structures, and they had the option in civil engineering to do it more simply and analyze it more simply.   Back then, if someone suggested, we can rivot the entire bridge together with gusset plates, like it was one member, the bridge engineers would rightly say, that is against all standards for bridges, it can't be proven it will work.  Anything could happen, like unexpected bending loading in a particular member.   At the same time, naval architects of the same day, having no option to pin their steel ships together, build steel ships with rivoted seams, despite the lack of ability to analyze them with more than witch-doctor level calculations with a vague connection to physics.   Yet they claimed professional authority and the ships left the yard.   No one is saying they were dishonest or less than conscientious, however, by any modern interpretation, they had no idea what they were doing.  What it boiled down to was build it and try it.  Yet, the great designers were recognized by doing things others thought was not possible, despite having little but their confidence, and intuition to propel them.  The rules by which Brent is being criticized evolved from those rules.   Clearly for small boats, the shell properties that were and practically still are too difficult to properly analyze, are more than sufficient for the job.  Brent has his confidence, his intuition, and now a substantial history of success to propel him.   He could by that measure be considered a great innovator.  Unfortunately, he was born into an era where education is more common, and computations are more available, and therefore his development method of build it and try it is considered dangerous by professionals who at the same time are not trained to understand the principles by which his boats work.  It does not matter that Brent does not really understand them either, the boats do, and Brent clearly recognizes that.   At the same time, mass-market recreational boat manufacturers are plopping cheap boats of fibreglass construction into the ocean, without regard to design rules, taking huge amounts of money from the customers and sending them off, in questionable relative safety as compared to Brent's designs.   Brent has strong structural arguments there to make in comparison.   In comparison to those pricey yacht alternatives, Brent has strong arguments on cost too.  I think it more than justifies his niche.  When the computational tools are readily available to really analyze them well (I am on the Nastran mailing list, it is close) those who said now, oh oh, against the rules, will be remembered like those careful old-time pin-joint bridge manufacturers.  They won't be remembered.  Brent will.   He will be remembered as the person who knew he was right before it could be analytically proven, who proved it right by building it and doing it.  If he can be careful not to mess it up by taking his designs too far, he will be remembered as an innovator.      Brent is personally very difficult to reason with if you do not agree with him.  "I cannot act under any supervision, or form part of any system which recognises any other advisor than myself""I have read the threads, Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 12 May 2014 08:25:28 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Matt:Yes, that is me. I enjoyed reading your post. Not sure I understood the last part though. | 30779|30751|2014-05-12 15:16:57|Matt Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| That was Isambard Kingdom Brunel, designer of the SS Great Eastern.  I have read the threads, Brent picks too many argments, lets it get personal.  Many of his attackers are technically trained, but, not innovative, and certainly do not know what they do not know about real structural analysis.   Brent does not know structural analysis, what he offers in his book might well be wrong, but, he has a feel for closed shells that is working in small boats, is doing it, and he is innovative, and it does appear to be building a successful history.   We are not all apostles, but we can recognize someone with a good idea.  If he could accept a little more help and 21st century muscle, neither of which appear to be important to him, he would have a great legacy, but that does not appear important to him either.   Unfortunately, there are a lot of people with a lot more potential than ends up showing.     Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 12 May 2014 15:05:11 -0400Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Robert,This is how structures, including a lot of bridges were made with pinned structures:http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/pa/pa2200/pa2213/photos/356303pv.jpgBridge engineers then lacked confidence and the computational ability to analyze bending moments in riveted redundant structures, and they had the option in civil engineering to do it more simply and analyze it more simply.   Back then, if someone suggested, we can rivot the entire bridge together with gusset plates, like it was one member, the bridge engineers would rightly say, that is against all standards for bridges, it can't be proven it will work.  Anything could happen, like unexpected bending loading in a particular member.   At the same time, naval architects of the same day, having no option to pin their steel ships together, build steel ships with rivoted seams, despite the lack of ability to analyze them with more than witch-doctor level calculations with a vague connection to physics.   Yet they claimed professional authority and the ships left the yard.   No one is saying they were dishonest or less than conscientious, however, by any modern interpretation, they had no idea what they were doing.  What it boiled down to was build it and try it.  Yet, the great designers were recognized by doing things others thought was not possible, despite having little but their confidence, and intuition to propel them.  The rules by which Brent is being criticized evolved from those rules.   Clearly for small boats, the shell properties that were and practically still are too difficult to properly analyze, are more than sufficient for the job.  Brent has his confidence, his intuition, and now a substantial history of success to propel him.   He could by that measure be considered a great innovator.  Unfortunately, he was born into an era where education is more common, and computations are more available, and therefore his development method of build it and try it is considered dangerous by professionals who at the same time are not trained to understand the principles by which his boats work.  It does not matter that Brent does not really understand them either, the boats do, and Brent clearly recognizes that.   At the same time, mass-market recreational boat manufacturers are plopping cheap boats of fibreglass construction into the ocean, without regard to design rules, taking huge amounts of money from the customers and sending them off, in questionable relative safety as compared to Brent's designs.   Brent has strong structural arguments there to make in comparison.   In comparison to those pricey yacht alternatives, Brent has strong arguments on cost too.  I think it more than justifies his niche.  When the computational tools are readily available to really analyze them well (I am on the Nastran mailing list, it is close) those who said now, oh oh, against the rules, will be remembered like those careful old-time pin-joint bridge manufacturers.  They won't be remembered.  Brent will.   He will be remembered as the person who knew he was right before it could be analytically proven, who proved it right by building it and doing it.  If he can be careful not to mess it up by taking his designs too far, he will be remembered as an innovator.      Brent is personally very difficult to reason with if you do not agree with him.  "I cannot act under any supervision, or form part of any system which recognises any other advisor than myself""I have read the threads, Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 12 May 2014 08:25:28 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Matt:Yes, that is me. I enjoyed reading your post. Not sure I understood the last part though. | 30784|30774|2014-05-12 16:46:24|opuspaul|Re: Long term maintenance|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote : >>>For sailing in Hawaii a BS36 is better than anything fiberglass or wood.  Opinion. I spent 4 months sailing around Hawaii.  I totally agree.  After leaving there, I felt I could sail anywhere.   The large but short and steep seas in the passes are unbelievable.  I did one trip from the big island to Maui in 50 knots on a fiberglass 42 footer.  It was a boat with a very good reputation but it flexed so much I thought it would crack up.  We were launching off the waves and crashing down in about 20 to 25 foot short seas as we crossed Alenuihaha Channel. Doors would either down below would jam or fly open as the boat flexed.  In the middle of the night, I couldn't help but think it would break up and split in two if it came down on the back of a whale, which were common.   Sailing my BS 36 around, I had no worries at all.   Anyone who questions if they are strong enough either has no idea what they are talking about or is questioning history.   From the vehemence and personal level of some of the attacks, I suspect a lot of the people either have a hidden agenda or just can't stand Brent.   If you don't like Brent's style, so be it.  I don't think he really cares.   What I don't get is why his boats or ideas are often attacked on the other forums.   This is closed minded and silly when they have been so proven.Look at it this way.  Assume you were dying and you had a choice of two surgeons.  Surgeon 1 knew what he was doing, was highly skilled but was rude, unresponsive to questions and had a crappy bed side manner. Surgeon 2 was a super nice guy and very kind but was all thumbs when it came to surgery.   I know  I would pick Surgeon 1 but it amazes me how many would pick Surgeon 2.| 30786|30751|2014-05-12 17:03:44|Matt Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| Robert,This group sometimes takes time to re-forward mail.  I do not see the pattern.  I do not believe there is any moderation happening.   I disagree, Brent is a designer.   He designs boats.  Does the industry standard paperwork matter to earn the title designer?  Really?  How about a composer who creates but cannot read or write music in standard form?  Are they a composer?   How about Ray Charles?   You are thinking about a designer as a person who starts as a junior at a big table and draws.  The rest of us will give the title to someone who accomplishes the end.  It would sure help for documentation reasons if Brent produced more of the standard drawings.The art in Brent's design is in the process to produce them, and the costs, the economy that he offers even on suggestions for systems.  Individual builders can decide to buy something commercial instead for a system.  The kind of thinking that Brent shows is exactly the type of innovation designers win awards for for simple, maintainable engineering systems for the third world for simple energy or infrastructure solutions.  They are designers.      Brent is a designer, and, on many fronts an innovative one.  Training and experience are pretty cheap in comparison to innovation.  The accountants of the world think opposite.  They can steal the fruit of innovation and do.  One cannot take the training and experience of a professional.  Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 12 May 2014 13:33:00 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Matt:I agree 100%.  Brent is no engineer, he admits to having a problem with math. He's no designer. He can't produce anything resembling a professional quality drawing, weight study or stability curve. But he can weld and by virtue of the geometry process he manages to get a boat hull out of it. I have never questioned the strength of his boats. I understand that over time he has developed a feel for the material. His explanation as to why it works are often whacko but in fact his method works and produces strong boats. No argument there. I would trust him on any steel construction technique questions myself.But BS does take things to a personal level and shows himself to be a small man. On SN he attacked my wife! He's never met her. He's never seen a photo of her. But he chose to attack her. She never posts. But he attacked my wife. He was given a one month "time out" for that stupidity. In time I will meet him and we can "discuss" that.For now I am enjoying and learning from your posts.Maybe you should check out my blog:Yacht Design According to PerryIt has zero to do with metal boats but if you are open minded and a fan of yacht design you might find it entertaining. Yes there are photos of young boys there. One is my son Max and the other is my 2 month old grandson Drake. I like those two guys very much. There are also photos of my darling granddaughter, Violet, She is the light of my life. Yacht Design According to Perry Sorry but your browser does not support iframes View on perryboat.sail2live.com Preview by Yahoo  Cheers,Bob P. | 30788|30751|2014-05-12 17:51:36|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Have to agree with you Matt. My posts are just slow showing up. No moderation issues. That's good to know.Thanks.| 30789|30751|2014-05-12 19:38:28|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Well now I'm not so sure. One of my posts went AWOL.| 30790|30751|2014-05-12 19:49:13|Matt Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| I think most people would be happy and take it as a compliment if anyone mentioned them in the same sentence as Ray Charles or the Beatles as creative artists, even if they believe there have been far greater masters in their or any other field of art.  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 12 May 2014 14:34:23 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Have it your way Matt. I'll have it my way. I respect different opinions. We all have them. Mine work for me in my world and that's what important to me. I try to keep an open mind. Not always easy but I try.As a musician I can relate to the Ray Charles analogy. But I'm not sure it is valid in this case. Ray Charles, one of my own favorites, is a great song writer. But he is no Felix Mendelssohn, Chopin,  Wagner, Mozart etc. It's not quite that black and white. There are levels of compositional skills. You could argue that the Beatles are great composers and they couldn't read music but I think there is no doubt that they had a fabulous grasp of the basic elements involved with composition. Look at the variety of compositions they produced. No question they were great composers. It's all about levels of competency. | 30791|30751|2014-05-12 19:51:51|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|I believe long term experience and testing to near destruction is a far more reliable  structural analysis than speculation. Claiming the latter to me more accurate than experience is like claiming that your calculations can make tomorrows weather forecast more accurate that yesterdays weather record.A boat surviving conditions on a lee shore in big surf for weeks , conditions which would have broken up a plastic boat in minutes, is conclusive, period| 30792|30751|2014-05-12 19:58:02|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Not sure what you are saying. I don't put many musicians on the same level as the Beatles. But I am a huge classical music fan and I have much respect for the great composers. They knew their craft inside and out.I'm sure Ray Charles knew a hell of a lot more about music fundamentals than you give him credit for. I'm, certain that when he wanted a diminished chord he said, "Hey, give me a diminished chord there." Or, "Let's change that a minor to an A minor 7th. I need to hear that 7th." Ray knew music. Don't kid yourself.I will now go finish making dinner while I play some vinyl. I might even put a Ray Charles record on.| 30793|30749|2014-05-12 19:59:10|brentswain38|Re: skeg pressure thread|I just use a  soft plastic push on cap from the  plumbing supplies on my header tank. It hasn't blown of yet| 30794|30749|2014-05-12 20:32:12|mountain man|Re: skeg pressure thread| Ok , I''ll try that.To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 12 May 2014 16:59:10 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: skeg pressure thread   I just use a  soft plastic push on cap from the  plumbing supplies on my header tank. It hasn't blown of yet | 30795|30795|2014-05-12 21:35:17|heretic_37ft|Kona, Hawaii 15-May-14|Hello Origami Gurus,Will be in Kona on Wednesday for two weeks.  Launching a 30' aluminum power boat at Honokahau Harbor.  Mostly trolling and staying overnight at Kawaihae Harbor.  Will anybody be around?  I saw the post of the aluminum sailboat at Gentry Boatyard.- Heretic 37ftBS 368GCBC amphibHewes Pacific Explorer| 30796|30751|2014-05-13 01:27:43|Chris Salayka|Re: Long term maintenance|  Watching this thread and getting kind of fed up -- but then I read Mr Perry's wise choice of words I had some hope that he would abide by them:                          "This is clearly not the place for me."  But, alas, seems not be. I feel like origamiboats is contaminated. | 30798|30751|2014-05-13 03:39:42|Denis Buggy|Re: Long term maintenance| as an old but infrequent poster I try and limit my posting to engines and engineering as I am not qualified to post on anything else -- however---- sometimes  on origamiboats -there is a familiar thread of somebody who has cabin fever and whose world measures a few feet by a few feet being asked to do a  simple task which for the moment is beyond his abilities -- due to self imposed pressures and stress  --not to incompetence-- he could probably write a good thesis on how to relive stress in steel by a number of methods --but his engineering skills to deal with his own stress   are made unavailable by the stress itself --- we have all been there -if you have lived at all --it is a constant revelation to me how easier my life has become when I show compassion to people who previously drove me nuts . regards to all Denis Buggy Ireland | 30799|30751|2014-05-13 10:45:25|akenai@yahoo.com|Re: Long term maintenance|Robert Thank you, Maybe it is a good place. We all like learning about boats even the expensive ones. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From: roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance Sent: Mon, May 12, 2014 3:10:33 PM   Aaron:There is no comparison with the cost of my boats and BS boats. I totally understand the appeal of the low cost boat. My own boat, that I sold 6 mos ago was a $15,000 26'er. But if I am going to design boats I want them to be very nicely built. My three current projects are all over a million dollars and one is well over two million. It's a small group of people who can afford these yachts and I am grateful to them that they chose me to design for them. These are marvelous boats and I would be careful before making ignorant generalities about them. I am confident that all will do exactly the job they were designed to do and do it very well. But, no question they are about as far from BS boats as they could possibly be.This is clearly not the place for me. But if BS posts anymore ridiculous personal attacks like the ones that got him booted from Sailknet, I'll be back. I'd like to keep things focused on design and build issues. I am interested in what goes on here. I am a boat lover and my personal taste is not restricted. I am a fan of well designed boats regardless of the material. | 30800|30751|2014-05-13 13:14:47|Scott Carle|Re: Long term maintenance|Mr. Perry,I follow this forum all the time. Most of the time without saying anything but I read every post. I'm going to be blunt here. Brent is no saint but on average this  is a very peaceful forum, once in a while it gets on politics or something else and people get heated, but you have created more personal vitrol in a day of posting than I have seen in a long while. Personally I would be very happy if you went away and left this forum in peace. You haven't contributed anything of worth and it appears that your presence here is simply to follow Brent and continue a personal fight with him. If you want to fight with him then let him back on your forums and do it there. If you were a long time member here that contributed and had an issue with Brent I wouldn't really mind but from what I can tell you just seem to be stalking Brent across the Internet for your own version of the OK corral. Like I said if your really want to duke it out with him then man up and open your forums back up to him and do it there instead of kicking him off and then sneaking over here to have your fight.I don't know you from Adam and can only base the above on what I have seen in the last couple days so this is just my opinion based on my observation of your behavior here. I've got no bone in you two's fight but I do have one in the forum in general here. So please leave or restrain yourselves to fighting over boats and don't sling personal insults. It's way to High School for my taste.Scott From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 11:58 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   I am being censored here. 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#ygrps-yiv-1625232161yiv8019995602ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1625232161 #ygrps-yiv-1625232161yiv8019995602 #ygrps-yiv-1625232161yiv8019995602ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1625232161 | 30801|30801|2014-05-13 14:20:29|heretic_37ft|Kona undersea fighting, the ghetto of West Hawaii|Kona is getting like the ghetto...http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/25497853/scuba-diving-assault-caught-on-camera-off-kona-coast| 30803|30751|2014-05-13 14:48:08|M.J. Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| I do not recall reading here that Brent called anyone a pedophile.  I think someone is having a game with you.  The history of this email list is searchable with google.   Perhaps you can find the post and remind us? Matt "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Scott: I only came to this site because a friend alerted me to the fact that BS was accusing me of being a "pedophile". You can read. Or do you only read what appeals to you? How would you like to be accused like that? Be real. Be less myopic. I'll leave you alone to drink the BS Coolaid. But when I am the focus of a ridiculous personal attack believe me I will respond. Cheers, Bob P. | 30804|30751|2014-05-13 14:49:35|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Matt:Maybe you should read the BS post once again. It is quite clear.But I fully understand that you see what you want to see. Can't argue with that.I can deal with it.| 30805|30751|2014-05-13 14:53:02|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Here you go. Let me refresh your memory:but some wierd old guy named Perry started using  the steel boat  discussion to post pictures of his personal obsesion, little boys , (which I am sure other old wierdos, who are into little boys appreciate) He  was getting disgusting I think this says a lot more about BS than it does about me. He is one angry guy.| 30806|30751|2014-05-13 14:59:38|M.J. Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| Sure enough, I see that now, it was one of the posts I had not read yet.  I am not even going to bother looking at sailnet to figure out how this started.  I have read all sorts of stuff aimed at Brent and Brent aiming stuff at other people.   It is all so pointless. My mistake thinging a classically trained naval architect came here to talk about boats.   I would not have bothered posting if I knew what this was about. Matt "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Matt: Maybe you should read the BS post once again. It is quite clear. But I fully understand that you see what you want to see. Can't argue with that. I can deal with it. | 30808|30751|2014-05-13 15:09:01|Darren Bos|Re: Long term maintenance| Brents posting on this site clearly implies pedophilia.  Mr. Perry hadn't posted here before and it seems very reasonable for a person to defend themselves when they are accused of something so egregious. I like Brents design philosophy, but I hope we can prevent this forum from turning into a mudslinging fest, which has happened to so many other forums.  If folks would just stick to the facts as they are known, rather than trying to discredit each other with baseless and mindless insults. Matts posts were great and opened the door to a useful discussion on ORIGAMI BOAT BUILDING and how to assess the structural considerations behind Origami.  It's a shame that we haven't been able to pursue what could have been a useful and constructive discussion. Darren Another long-term member On 14-05-13 11:53 AM, roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Here you go. Let me refresh your memory: but some wierd old guy named Perry started using  the steel boat  discussion to post pictures of his personal obsesion, little boys , (which I am sure other old wierdos, who are into little boys appreciate) He  was getting disgusting  I think this says a lot more about BS than it does about me. He is one angry guy. | 30809|30751|2014-05-13 16:04:14|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Thanks Darren. Glad you understood why I came here.I'll check in from time to time because I like staying informed on all manner of boats. But I will refrain from trying to contribute. The BS boats are a world apart from what I do. I have nothing at all in common with BS.I'll stay quiet until attacked.| 30810|30810|2014-05-13 16:44:42|heretic_37ft|You will not see me the magazines...|This forum is really about a life style.  Brent has introduced me to a way of thinking that I am thankful for.  I do not want to live like Brent at the moment and Brent has no desire to live like I do.  But, we connect on some very important ideas.  Brent treats me very well.  I bought my BS36 second hand but, Brent treats me like a best friend ( not the phony stuff from other brokers and builders).I like to think of myself as a" bottom feeder" when it comes to sailing.  Except the Hull, my boat is mostly made from junkyard parts...* the engine was from a wreck in SF bay* mast was broken and repaired from a sloop* wheel was second hand* all winches, sails are second handI have had her for 9 years and she is a great ship, I would sail most anywhere in low to moderate latitudes.The art of sailing is spending very little and getting somewhere very cool.  Time and money matter to me.| 30811|30751|2014-05-13 21:31:29|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|Bob said he charges $150 an hour and a design of his for a 36 footer would cost around $14,000 for the plans alone. Yet he joined in on years of very insulting,  jeering, sarcastic personal attacks on me and my way of doing things ,  ganging up on me. He made it clear to me he was out to force me out of any discussion of  anything innovative. He cheered on his groupie  Smackdaddy when Smack began quoting me out of context , posting quotes from  a discussion on religion as a discussion on metal boats , and even modified my quotes considerably, so he could ridicule them. When  I tried to help people out by posting how to  build sheet blocks , I was vehemently attacked , jeered at and ridiculed for merely suggesting that what one builds for one self can possibly be better than commercially made products, while Bob  supported   others who joined in the attacks . After years of such internet abuse and joining in gang bullying, trying to misquote my posts in any way he can, so he can ridicule them , when asked a question about steel boat building, he responds by posting pictures of little boys. So how good does that make his judgement on anything? No Bob after years of your abuse, I owe you zero consideration.  | 30812|30751|2014-05-13 21:44:37|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|He got carried away with the interior before finishing the welding detail. Chain plates , stanchions, chocks and bow roller are all on the bulwark,so welding them should no problem .A dam on the decks, built by caulking behind the chocks should hold enough water in for chock welding, to prevent the  foam from catching fire. Then it is  weld an inch and douse with water then another inch etc. I replaced my steel hatch coamings with stainless ,by scraping the foam out  a couple of inches back and covering  it with soggy wet cloth. Then weld  a bit and quench etc.  Putting  soggy wet cloth over scraped out areas held up by plywood,  to prevent fire, works. I'd still have someone standing by with a garden hose, ready to go in case the foam  catches fire..| 30813|30751|2014-05-13 23:04:15|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|No, $14000 would get you in the door. You can figure my design cost at around 8.5% of the build cost.It works just fine for me, It's all about quality and my clients are happy to pay it. I do provide design documents.As I keep saying over nad over you and I have nothing in common.Zero.Enjoy your world. I sure enjoy mine.| 30814|30810|2014-05-13 23:05:06|jbsf2004|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|Ive learned alot in the last 2 weeks reading this group, much more than all the other forums Ive read combined.I got the book today!.The info about building the water maker alone is worth the price of it.| 30815|1062|2014-05-13 23:09:51|jbsf2004|Re: Book|Got it today, Thanks.Read the intro and purused the rest, Best 28 bucks Ive spent in awhile.| 30816|1062|2014-05-14 03:10:49|Darren Bos|Re: Book| Brents book is one of the best values in boatbuilding.  Anyone fitting-out or restoring a sail-boat, even a glass boat, is very likely to find something useful (watermaker and fore hatch come to mind).  If you are thinking of building in steel or aluminum I think it would be invaluable.  If you have one to forty million lying around for your next project, you should still buy a copy or eight.  Read one, give the others to the guys in the yard.  I think you would get a better boat. Darren On 14-05-13 08:09 PM, jbsf2004@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Got it today, Thanks.Read the intro and purused the rest, Best 28 bucks Ive spent in awhile. | 30817|30810|2014-05-14 03:16:55|heretic_37ft|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|My life style...I would rather have money in the fricken "bank" (just an expression), which would preclude many brokers, builders, and designers getting near me.  Much of the boat building business is hilarious.  Look at all the Marinas stuffed with broken dreams.  But, the dealers just keep over selling their "affluent" bullshit.  Brent is the opposite, he helps those that may not be able to afford the high life.  Having freedom to me means hanging on to my money and time (or should I say my wife's money).  Look at how screwed up the Dashews are spending their kids inheritance on boats that take thirty people to build.  Sad.| 30818|30751|2014-05-14 03:48:35|joohak|Re: Long term maintenance|Robert why all educated designers have same high charging? $14000 is worker's 4 to 12 months income. I doubt that drawing don't take that long!I estimated building cost $28000 for 31 footer(including plans). So could I assume that your plans cost $2380?Joose| 30819|30810|2014-05-14 04:29:13|Brian Stannard|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|Brents boats are solid, inexpensive, and utilitarian. Some want that.Many have the means to buy a boat or have one designed by a naval architect to meet their wishes. Each to their own. The Dashews are very successful. They have no trouble finding people to buy their custom and semi custom designs. They are not losing money doing what they do, but making it. Lots of it.  Nothing wrong with capitalism. If you want to avoid it totally next time you build a boat go into the forest and cut a few trees down - the steel barons of the world are some of the biggest capitalists out there. Not to mention the pollution caused by the process from mining to smelting. There are many very successful designers in the world as there is no shortage of successful people who want their dreams built. Not everyone wants to dumpster dive to outfit their dreams. The real issue isn't Brent's boats but his attitude. Attacking others just because their ideas are different isn't what normal people do. Disagree - nothing wrong with that. Brent cannot see that not everyone wants to sail a steel boat to his design, calling them stupid. Not everyone wants to scrounge for parts. Many want to buy them and have the means to do so. But when Brent accuses someone of being something they are not on this forum that person has a right to defend themselves. Brent's boats are fine for those that want them. His demeanor and attitude toward others is not needed by anybody. As far as Brent being removed from a forum it was Sailnet that did so if it happened - it should have. Bob Perry is just a regular poster, not the forum owner. A respected one open to any ideas, but not personal insults. On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 11:20 PM, heretic_37ft@... [origamiboats] wrote:   My life style...I would rather have money in the fricken "bank" (just an expression), which would preclude many brokers, builders, and designers getting near me.  Much of the boat building business is hilarious.  Look at all the Marinas stuffed with broken dreams.  But, the dealers just keep over selling their "affluent" bullshit.  Brent is the opposite, he helps those that may not be able to afford the high life.   Having freedom to me means hanging on to my money and time (or should I say my wife's money).  Look at how screwed up the Dashews are spending their kids inheritance on boats that take thirty people to build.  Sad. -- CheersBrian | 30820|30810|2014-05-14 06:38:27|Hannu Venermo|Re: You will not see me the magazines...| Disagree totally. The Dashew are one of the nicest designers, with vast experience, and the *only ones* I know of who freely publish all sorts of factual data on setsail.com. Costs, efficiencies, stability, design rationale etc. Almost no-one else does this, and none as well as the Dashews, in my opinion. They also make the best metal boats in the business, if you can afford 5M$ or so. They are *the only* true serial passgemaking/explorer boats I know of, that are already fitted out with everything, just go. Including spares and tools. The Brent and Deshew boats are the two opposite extremes of boats by cost, but both provide a lot of valuable data and advice freely to everyone. Both boats also provide excllent value for money. So do Nordhavns, btw (third corner of a set of best of breed passagemaking boats, for the wealthy). They are free to spend their money any way they want. I dont want an inheritance, I want experiences. I myself believe travelling and becoming self reliant is a much better inheritance than cash. Since I am healthy, I am quite willing to work and succeed on my own merits. If someone knows of another designer as generous with data and design info as Steve Dashew, please let us know. On 14/05/2014 08:20, heretic_37ft@... [origamiboats] wrote: Having freedom to me means hanging on to my money and time (or should I say my wife's money).  Look at how screwed up the Dashews are spending their kids inheritance on boats that take thirty people to build.  Sad. -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 30821|30751|2014-05-14 08:49:30|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Joohak:residential architects get between 5% and 10% of the cost of the house for their design fee. I had my new house designed by a very good friend and he charged me $48,000 and considered that a "good deal". Given the few sheets of drawings I received and the fact that I had to provide a dozen extra sheets that I drew up to get the details I wanted I did not consider it a "deal". But I was a very picky client.I began in this business pricing my designs as a percentage of the build cost usually around 8.5%. Then a return client told me that he would do a new boat with my but he wanted hourly billing. I agreed and it worked very well. I had $25,000 in to the preliminary design. If I had charged him a flat fee I would not have made that much. Since that project I have charged hourly for almost everything. A typical design fee will run between 6.5% of the build cost and 8.5% depending on the project and the material provided.On production boats I get a design fee up front and a royalty for each boat built. My standard royalty is 1% of the base retail price of the boat. This works out nicely when a builder like Ta Yang builds over 600 Tayana 37's.When I did the Flying Tiger 10m I charged nothing up front and raised the royalty to 4%. They have built 123 of those boats so that has also worked well for me.I very rarely sell a set of "stick plans". I am not a builder like Brent so I am not much help to a builder who needs hands on support. But I have sold some of my existing designs and for a 36' design of mine I would want $7,500. I consider my design work very high quality and I want it priced at that level.But home builders have never been my target market. I think in 35 years I may have sold six sets of stock plans.I have also designed boats for free. On FRANCIS, the 62'er, I dropped my hourly rate to $100 an hour because the client was a friend. I'm not rigid in my approach to fees. But I need to make a living that will support my chosen life style. I can assure you that my lifestyle and Brent's are very, very different. But I don't make value judgments on lifestyles so long as they are legal. I have tremendous respect for anyone who can build their own boat.There are many ways to go about any business. I have my way of doing yacht design work. I know what my peers in this business charge and my fees are in line with the industry at this level. If Brent can support his lifestyle with low fees then good for him and good for his customers. My lifestyle would nit be sustainable at those fee levels. I have a nice house on the beach with an indoor swimming pool. My hobby is top of the line stereo gear. I collect fine guitars. I put two sons through college. I don't dive into dumpsters. But if you like dumpster diving I certainly don't hold that against you. Live and let live.I hope this explains things a bit for you. Thanks for asking.My current hourly charge is $150 and I really enjoy my work.Bob P.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Robert why all educated designers have same high charging? $14000 is worker's 4 to 12 months income. I doubt that drawing don't take that long!I estimated building cost $28000 for 31 footer(including plans). So could I assume that your plans cost $2380?Joose| 30822|30810|2014-05-14 08:54:20|roberthperry1946|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|Thanks Brian. I appreciate that support. If in fact Brent was "removed" from SN I had nothing to do with that. I am not part of the moderator team there that makes those decisions. I have been close to getting banned myself a couple of times. Seems to me that Brent just took a time out from SN. If he had been banned again I think someone would have mentioned it.Bob P.| 30824|30751|2014-05-14 09:50:09|joohak|Re: Long term maintenance|Thanks Robert!That tell to me why charging is what it is.I have never lived in your world or Brent's. I need live in my own world. Still I want understand others.Joose| 30825|30751|2014-05-14 09:55:16|Matt Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| Well, $14,000 is not a lot for professionals to charge who have an office, equipment, and facilities to maintain, staff to pay, like engineers who design buildings.  It is not a lot for someone who has a breadth of needed knowledge skills and judgement, and probably a more expensive office location (rent and commercial taxes) like an accountant or a lawyer.  I imagine that an artist who creates a large piece (the actual piece, not a design for it) will easily charge a lot in addition to material costs.   Yes a labourer would look at that price and say it is a lot.   I regularly charge far more than I would regularly willingly pay for professional work.  But, really, doesn't the shop keeper also? A shop keeper would never consider paying what customers pay, yet are willing to tell customers that is the cost when selling it.  Are the customers all chumps?  Or is this the way everything works?  If one looks too closely at the markup the guy behind the counter is charging so he can pay his exorbitant city taxes on his store front, pay his clerks, and feed his family and pay his clerks, we all end up buying cheap crap direct from China and we live in an unemployment zone.   Then there is just the fact that all participants in any process must draw their livelihood from the total sales value at the end of the process.  Remember, the biggest contributor to the cost of things are the various levels of government.  Take a thing made here in a fab shop using staff welders.   In Ontario, 13% of what the customer pays goes to PST and GST.   The proprietor must pay payroll taxes on any salaries, about 16% last I heard.  The metal might be tax free after the business files its tax forms, but, the cost of the steel is greatly influenced by energy taxes, and fuel taxes to get it there.  Then taxes on the shop probably account for at least another 5%.   Then any money that is allocated for salary, people pay 30+% tax on before it gets home.  Out of what the people take home, probably two thirds of that goes to things that they have to pay sales tax on, so, another 13%.   If the money the customer paid for the item were just divided up from a bucket of dollar coins, as cash for the workers, workers would make a much more money than they do now.  But really, how much of that overhead does an independent naval architect really need?  Not much, but, I think it is a low-frequency issue here.   Considering the low frequency of certain businesses, if a practitioner were to have a lifestyle that an independent master tradesman like a plumber might have, they have to charge a great deal more for the few hours of work they are able to land in a year.  Philip Rhodes, considered a very successful and good designer, is listed as doing only 390 designs  in 54 years.   Pay him at Robert Perry rates, and then divide out over the number of years and that is an average of $100,000 per year in today's dollars over his career to run his office, pay his staff and himself.   Many high school teachers in their 50's in Ontario make that much as salary and they do not have to pay the janitor out of that amount.  A master plumber who owns their own business would not be going out every day to deal with everyones leaking excrement if their gross sales were so low.  No doubt Rhodes charged his clients more, because of his reputation, and the breadth of his design catalog, and his success.   Still, I am not sure he would match a good plumber with a few journeymen.  The problem I have is, boats do not have near the variation of say buildings, and the stresses are completely different when you re-arrange the supporting walls in a building.  Tell me one 30 foot sloop has as much technical and structural variation from another 32 foot sloop, as a 10,000 square foot single storey building to house an auto dealership and another 12,000 square foot 3 storey building to house accountants, lawyers and dentists.   There is a certain art of the lines of a boat, and one 30 foot boat will look ugly, where another will give the impression of being nimble, without moving.   But after the lines, if one has been paying attention to the power of computers, it would seem the structural details and the simplified structural calculations that determine framing and plating should fall out pretty mechanically in 2014.  Yes, in 1960, different story.  Further, after one had done a couple hundred designs, tell me a new one is likely to be so completely different as to not be able to pull up the electronic design for the last one, stretch it a bit, and have the computer recompute the framing.  Yes, yes, people are paying for a personal design, and are liable to be needy, so, there will be meetings etc, and this may be half the time spent on a project, before considering anything technical or artistic. Some people hire architects to design their house, and pay a great deal more than $14,000.  There are plenty of people who just hire a general contractor and pay a great deal more than $14,000, and there are still a few who do the design themselves and hire trades, and pay a great deal more than $14,000 to trades, and others who build it from the ground up.   There is a place for all.   It is the same for the process to create a boat.         Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 14 May 2014 00:33:53 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Robert why all educated designers have same high charging? $14000 is worker's 4 to 12 months income. I doubt that drawing don't take that long!I estimated building cost $28000 for 31 footer(including plans). So could I assume that your plans cost $2380?Joose | 30826|30751|2014-05-14 10:29:04|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Matt: I am not a wealthy man. I have managed to live at what I consider a "comfort" level. You are right. It does cost a lot to run an office and at times I had up to four people working for me. That didn't leave much of the pie for me. But I always overpaid the help. My goal was to treat them the way I would have liked to be treated back when I took home $157 a week while working in Boston for Dick Carter. Now I work by myself and hire outside engineering help when I need it. My engineer is Ivan Erdevicki in Monte Negro. I also use Jody Culbertson in Florida for my extensive 3D work. Clients today love and expect 3D modelling of the design. It is a great help in the design process. Jody is amazing and you can see examples of his work on my blog.Yacht Design According to Perry Yacht Design According to Perry Sorry but your browser does not support iframes View on perryboat.sail2live.com Preview by Yahoo  On the FRANCIS LEE project the engineering was done by Tim Nolan in Port Townsend Wa. The 3D work required for CNC cutting was all done by Jim Franken, also in Port Townsend. So while the design fee for FRANCIS was considerable it was spread around.When I got the plans for my new house most of the "details": were just stock  "as per code" details lifted from other plans. This included pretty much all the important structural detailing. There was very little unique detailing prepared for my house. But I knew what I wanted so I started drawing the house details myself. My drawings are very good and I'd post them here but I can;t get an image to show here. I realized while doing the house details that no architect could have done what I needed. My own ideas were too fixed. To get things my way I had to draw them myself. I really enjoyed that work. I cook as a hobby and I controlled every inch of my new kitchen design.Bob P. | 30827|30751|2014-05-14 10:49:55|Scott Carle|Re: Long term maintenance|I believe I did read something to that effect but it just registered as that forum was having issues with Spam not that you had been personally accused. If you were personally accused by name I would suggest you turn it over to your lawyer and have him contact Brent for you. That is a serious accusation. It isn't something I would follow brent around and getting into arguments with him or others over though. Thats just childish. Here is some help for youDefamation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDefamation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDefamation—also called calumny, vilification, or traducement—is the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual, busin...View on en.wikipedia.orgPreview by Yahoo  Libel Vs SlanderLibel Vs Slander - What is the difference between libel and slander? Libel and slander are both forms of defamation. Defamation is a common law tort, governed by st...View on defamation.laws.comPreview by Yahoo  Libel Vs SlanderIf he has legitimately harmed you with false claims then don't fuss with us.. we can't do anything about it. Get on the phone and call your lawyer. Scott From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Scott:I only came to this site because a friend alerted me to the fact that BS was accusing me of being a "pedophile". You can read. Or do you only read what appeals to you? How would you like to be accused like that? Be real. Be less myopic. I'll leave you alone to drink the BS Coolaid. 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1823981563 #ygrps-yiv-1823981563yiv4945894763 #ygrps-yiv-1823981563yiv4945894763ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1823981563 #ygrps-yiv-1823981563yiv4945894763 #ygrps-yiv-1823981563yiv4945894763ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1823981563 | 30828|30751|2014-05-14 11:15:29|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Way ahead of you on that Scott. But thanks for the advice.| 30829|30751|2014-05-14 11:29:40|Matt Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| Scott,I posted something to the list that did not seem to get sent out, it has been more than a day now.  I am not picking sides.  I would not recommend a lawyer as a solution for anything but spare money in your back account.   I am not sure a judge would find the case compelling taken in its entirety, and would likely be sick to his back teeth with all sides by the end of it.Further, Brent's lifestyle I gather leaves very little real assets, cross-section for a law suit to hit, even if the judge decided Brent caused more damage to someone else's reputation.   Brent's ideas are so uncommercializable they cannot be practically stolen, so all that his detractors can do is criticize.  And they have, and not always fairly, and that is a recipe for countersuit.  After all, Origami boats are Brent's livelihood and that has been directly attacked, as well as his character.  Whether there is a counter-case to be made or not, a lawyer will find a way to make a counter-case of some sort.  And Brent's detractors tend to have more real wealth at risk in a suit.      And recognizing there is nothing to gain (in certain circumstances) in calling a lawyer is the smartest thing anyone can do.   So why poke the bear.   Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 14 May 2014 07:49:54 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   I believe I did read something to that effect but it just registered as that forum was having issues with Spam not that you had been personally accused. If you were personally accused by name I would suggest you turn it over to your lawyer and have him contact Brent for you. That is a serious accusation. It isn't something I would follow brent around and getting into arguments with him or others over though. Thats just childish. Here is some help for youDefamation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDefamation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDefamation—also called calumny, vilification, or traducement—is the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual, busin...View on en.wikipedia.orgPreview by Yahoo  Libel Vs SlanderLibel Vs Slander - What is the difference between libel and slander? Libel and slander are both forms of defamation. Defamation is a common law tort, governed by st...View on defamation.laws.comPreview by Yahoo  Libel Vs SlanderIf he has legitimately harmed you with false claims then don't fuss with us.. we can't do anything about it. Get on the phone and call your lawyer. Scott From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Scott:I only came to this site because a friend alerted me to the fact that BS was accusing me of being a "pedophile". You can read. Or do you only read what appeals to you? How would you like to be accused like that? Be real. Be less myopic. I'll leave you alone to drink the BS Coolaid. But when I am the focus of a ridiculous personal attack believe me I will respond.Cheers,Bob P. | 30830|30751|2014-05-14 11:35:46|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Matt:I think you and I see eye to eye on that.Bob P.| 30831|30810|2014-05-14 17:03:58|opuspaul|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|I have met the Dashews.   You couldn't have nicer people in a cruising anchorage.   They are extremely knowledgeable, very low key, and very helpful and generous.Their books are some of the best references available.   Everyone can learn a lot from them, whether you sail a Brent boat, a Dashew or the Queen Mary.   They are also free.  How generous is that?http://setsail.com/weather-forecasting-storm-tactics-and-successful-cruising/Cheers.| 30832|30751|2014-05-14 17:53:04|Scott Carle|Re: Long term maintenance|I hear a lot of people talk about being moderated but sometimes yahoo groups is just flakey.. we have seen it over and over where posts appear day's later.. As to the lawyer issue. I'm not sue happy either, I just got rear ended by a lady a few weeks ago with my pregnant wife and 3 year old. I got whiplash and my wife got to spend half a day in the hospital being monitored to make sure it didn't affect the baby.. The car was not damaged .... just hit hard enough to bounce us good against our seat belts. I ended up with neck issues for about a week and half and the chiropractor for 38 dollars fixed it right up. I haven't even filed a claim and won't unless I have to to pay the hospital bill for my wife. I think it is covered though and if so won't worry about it. My comment about "get a lawyer" wasn't so much to encourage him to do so but to make the point that if he feels he is being seriously defamed then do something about it and quit messing with us as we can't do anything about it, and harassing about it here is just annoying to us on the forum. This is between him and Brent and I would be happy to have it stay between him and Brent. I like Brent for the most part, he is very knowledgeable and has great ideas and shares his skills and knowledge with everyone here. He can also be very verbally abrasive when he wants to be and less than diplomatic when he gets going on his views vs others on boats and politics and life in general. Based on peoples comments that have met him in person I think maybe a good chunk of that abrasive is his lack of care phrasing stuff for the Internet. You can say something in person that doesn't come across as harsh and the same thing typed out in a forum will come across as very judgmental and harsh.Shit... :) I say stuff sometimes that if I had thought about it twice I might have phrased it differently. From: "Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats]" To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 11:29 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Scott,I posted something to the list that did not seem to get sent out, it has been more than a day now.  I am not picking sides.  I would not recommend a lawyer as a solution for anything but spare money in your back account.   I am not sure a judge would find the case compelling taken in its entirety, and would likely be sick to his back teeth with all sides by the end of it.Further, Brent's lifestyle I gather leaves very little real assets, cross-section for a law suit to hit, even if the judge decided Brent caused more damage to someone else's reputation.   Brent's ideas are so uncommercializable they cannot be practically stolen, so all that his detractors can do is criticize.  And they have, and not always fairly, and that is a recipe for countersuit.  After all, Origami boats are Brent's livelihood and that has been directly attacked, as well as his character.  Whether there is a counter-case to be made or not, a lawyer will find a way to make a counter-case of some sort.  And Brent's detractors tend to have more real wealth at risk in a suit.      And recognizing there is nothing to gain (in certain circumstances) in calling a lawyer is the smartest thing anyone can do.   So why poke the bear.   Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 14 May 2014 07:49:54 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   I believe I did read something to that effect but it just registered as that forum was having issues with Spam not that you had been personally accused. If you were personally accused by name I would suggest you turn it over to your lawyer and have him contact Brent for you. That is a serious accusation. It isn't something I would follow brent around and getting into arguments with him or others over though. Thats just childish. Here is some help for youDefamation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDefamation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDefamation—also called calumny, vilification, or traducement—is the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual, busin...View on en.wikipedia.orgPreview by Yahoo  Libel Vs SlanderLibel Vs Slander - What is the difference between libel and slander? Libel and slander are both forms of defamation. Defamation is a common law tort, governed by st...View on defamation.laws.comPreview by Yahoo  Libel Vs SlanderIf he has legitimately harmed you with false claims then don't fuss with us.. we can't do anything about it. Get on the phone and call your lawyer. Scott From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Scott:I only came to this site because a friend alerted me to the fact that BS was accusing me of being a "pedophile". You can read. Or do you only read what appeals to you? How would you like to be accused like that? Be real. Be less myopic. I'll leave you alone to drink the BS Coolaid. 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#ygrps-yiv-693164292yiv4637011219ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-693164292 | 30833|30751|2014-05-14 18:10:45|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Scott: I am not asking for any of you to do anything. I can handle this myself. I am a big boy. But I do appreciate the concern and I will do my best not to be a cancer on the forum. My argument is only with BS and this is the only place I can address him. He attacked first before I had ever heard of this web site. Now I am here to respond. I suppose I could drive to Comox but I have been advised that it would be a bad idea.Go back to your normal discussions now. This is a distraction that you don't need. I can handle it.Bob P.| 30834|30751|2014-05-14 20:55:09|jpronk1|Re: Long term maintenance|So, I think my question was, how many hours of welding are involved in one of your origami designs and how many of these have you build?just the facts please. Thank you, James| 30835|30751|2014-05-14 20:59:02|jpronk1|Re: Long term maintenance|So for $14000 how much of the work are you going to do? Are you a good welder? Thank you, James| 30836|30810|2014-05-14 21:03:05|James Pronk|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|I built the water maker too. Used the pump from the pressure washer that I've been wet blasting with. I have stainless high pressure quick connects so I can switch it to ether application. James From: jbsf2004@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: You will not see me the magazines... Sent: Wed, May 14, 2014 3:05:06 AM   Ive learned alot in the last 2 weeks reading this group, much more than all the other forums Ive read combined.I got the book today!.The info about building the water maker alone is worth the price of it. | 30837|30751|2014-05-14 22:37:02|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|James:I don't weld. My son Spike is an excellent welder, a true artist. He made a suit of armor. I don't need to weld because I don't build boats I design boats. Let me say that again because I think you need it repeated. I do not build boats. I am not a boat builder. I am a boat designer. I never claimed to be a boat builder. Once again just for you, I never claimed to be a boat builder.. I have about 6,000 boats on the water to my credit. These are boats I designed. I'll make this easy for you.I do not build in wood.I do not build in aluminum.I do not build in steel.I do not build in GRP.I do not build in composite.I am only a poor designer of yachts.There, I think I made that clear.Cheers,Bob P.| 30838|30810|2014-05-14 22:51:05|Steve Lardie|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|Ahoy- Found this post while looking for boat. It might be of interest to you.1995 Custom steel Brent Swain 31 sailboat for sale in Outside United States1995 Custom steel Brent Swain 31 sailboat for sale i...Monitor wind vane, autopilot, wind generator, solar charger, radar, Garmin chart plotter, EPIRB, SCUBA gear, Sardine solid fuel stove, 2 new deep ch...View on www.sailboatlistings...Preview by Yahoo 1st post, just joined Sat. Myself-60 y/o retired from 20 yrs. with FedEx-Ground in '07, sold franchise and bought 32' Endeavor sailboat and sailed West Coast of Fl. for a few years (grew up trailer sailing Com Pac 16) I'm presently boat less, always looking for boat to take Bahamas after hurricane season. Hoping start Blog by end of month (www.60yearsoflivingdangerously.com) will let know when it starts posting. contact stvndie@... Thanks-Steve    "Sea you on the next Wave!"    On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:03 PM, "James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I built the water maker too. Used the pump from the pressure washer that I've been wet blasting with. I have stainless high pressure quick connects so I can switch it to ether application. James From: jbsf2004@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: You will not see me the magazines... 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#ygrps-yiv-1578418348yiv9509536533ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1578418348 #ygrps-yiv-1578418348yiv9509536533 #ygrps-yiv-1578418348yiv9509536533ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1578418348 #ygrps-yiv-1578418348yiv9509536533 #ygrps-yiv-1578418348yiv9509536533ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1578418348 #ygrps-yiv-1578418348yiv9509536533 #ygrps-yiv-1578418348yiv9509536533ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1578418348 | 30839|30810|2014-05-14 23:06:18|heretic_37ft|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|My point about the Dashews is the relentless salesmanship.  It seems every book and article is about how wonderful cruising is and how you must join us.  Why are they living in Arizona and building boats in NZ.Sounds crazy to me.  No thanks to joining that lifestyle.| 30840|30810|2014-05-14 23:51:47|roberthperry1946|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|I'm with you heretic. It's wonderful to think we could all have the perfect boat if it were 70' LOA and two million dollars. But for most of us that is not the real world. Show..me the perfect boat at 36'.. Personally I think Dashew, and i do know him, is a snake oil salesman. But it appears that snake oil sales men can hold a crowd. Hmmmmmmm.| 30841|30810|2014-05-14 23:57:09|heretic_37ft|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|Hi Bob,Getting to like you!  Anyone who takes Brent on is pretty gnarly.I am just a poor kid from San Pedro, California.  I never thought Robert Perry would answer my posts!Regardless, you are an icon, and we all must respect that!VTY,Heretic| 30842|30810|2014-05-14 23:59:04|opuspaul|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|Geez, Robert.   Just when  you had me on your side you go attacking other people and their boats again.....maybe Brent has a point.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I'm with you heretic. It's wonderful to think we could all have the perfect boat if it were 70' LOA and two million dollars. But for most of us that is not the real world. Show..me the perfect boat at 36'.. Personally I think Dashew, and i do know him, is a snake oil salesman. But it appears that snake oil sales men can hold a crowd. Hmmmmmmm.| 30843|30810|2014-05-15 00:01:33|opuspaul|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|I would never live the Dashew lifestyle because I could never afford it but they enjoy it and do heaps of miles every year.  Few couples have as many miles as them and if using a power boat now allows them to keep going as they get older, then good for them.   I suspect the Arizona address is one for convenience or contrast.  I know of a few former sailors who now have places in the desert or in the mountains.  It is not for me but to each their own.I have learned a lot from their books.  There are many books on storm tactics but few are as comprehensive and I have never seen a book on weather that comes close to theirs.   These books have nothing to do with the type of boat.  I guess they are boat builders/ designers so they have to sell their boats somewhere.  As long as they put out such fine information for free, I really don't mind.| 30844|30810|2014-05-15 00:10:54|roberthperry1946|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|Sorry Paul. I am far from perfect. I am not attacking the Dashews for their lifestyle. Good on 'em. I am just saying it is far beyond the reach of most of us. Not even sure I want an 80' custom aluminum motor sailer.No, I am sure I don't want one. Not my style.I have to get up early to go fishing so nighty night all.Cheers Bob P.| 30845|30810|2014-05-15 00:11:25|opuspaul|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|I would never live the Dashew lifestyle because I could never afford it but they enjoy it and do heaps of miles every year.  Few couples have as many miles as them and if using a power boat now allows them to keep going as they get older, then good for them.   I suspect the Arizona address is one for convenience or contrast.  I know of a few former sailors who now have places in the desert or in the mountains.  It is not for me but to each their own.I have learned a lot from their books.   There are many books on storm tactics but few are as comprehensive and I have never seen a book on weather that comes close to theirs.   These books have nothing to do with the type of boat.  I guess they are boat builders/ designers so they have to sell their boats somewhere.  As long as they put out such fine information for free, I really don't mind.| 30846|30810|2014-05-15 00:13:08|heretic_37ft|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|Hi OpusPaul,No doubt the Dashews have more information than most and are cool about sharing.  But, the lifestyle they are selling is not what I could "afford".  I would be happier in a G5 if I had that budget!  Sitting for days on end in a powerboat is not a healthily life style in my opinion.| 30847|30751|2014-05-15 05:02:36|Chris Harnan|Re: Long term maintenance|GentlemenI have been a subscriber to Origamiboats for many years and enjoy the comments from BS which always appear sensible and based on experience. I have a Wylo which I cruise quite extensively.I do not understand what all the latest posts are about and have no wish to comment on who is right and wrong. I do not however believe that such comments have any place on this forum and would ask that they cease as I do not wish to unsubscribe which is the only other option to avoid receiving so many nonsense posts.We all have individual email addresses. If 2 members really have something to feud over then surely that should be done direct, not over a forum.Pls lets get back to boat and sailing issues.RegardsChrisSent from my iPad On 15 May 2014, at 04:37, "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   James:I don't weld. My son Spike is an excellent welder, a true artist. He made a suit of armor. I don't need to weld because I don't build boats I design boats. Let me say that again because I think you need it repeated. I do not build boats. I am not a boat builder. I am a boat designer. I never claimed to be a boat builder. Once again just for you, I never claimed to be a boat builder.. I have about 6,000 boats on the water to my credit. These are boats I designed. I'll make this easy for you.I do not build in wood.I do not build in aluminum.I do not build in steel.I do not build in GRP.I do not build in composite.I am only a poor designer of yachts.There, I think I made that clear.Cheers,Bob P. | 30848|30810|2014-05-15 06:57:29|Matt Malone|Wow, Cheap 31' for sale| Seems like a bargain if the steel alone will be $10,000 and a year of weekends to get it to built and fitted out to this extent.   It would be worth an air plane ticket to go look at it.  I am surprised a broker has not snatched it to flip for a quick $10,000. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 14 May 2014 19:48:10 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: You will not see me the magazines...   Ahoy- Found this post while looking for boat. It might be of interest to you.1995 Custom steel Brent Swain 31 sailboat for sale in Outside United States1995 Custom steel Brent Swain 31 sailboat for sale i...Monitor wind vane, autopilot, wind generator, solar charger, radar, Garmin chart plotter, EPIRB, SCUBA gear, Sardine solid fuel stove, 2 new deep ch...View on www.sailboatlistings...Preview by Yahoo 1st post, just joined Sat. Myself-60 y/o retired from 20 yrs. with FedEx-Ground in '07, sold franchise and bought 32' Endeavor sailboat and sailed West Coast of Fl. for a few years (grew up trailer sailing Com Pac 16) I'm presently boat less, always looking for boat to take Bahamas after hurricane season. Hoping start Blog by end of month (www.60yearsoflivingdangerously.com) will let know when it starts posting. contact stvndie@... Thanks-Steve    "Sea you on the next Wave!"    On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:03 PM, "James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I built the water maker too. Used the pump from the pressure washer that I've been wet blasting with. I have stainless high pressure quick connects so I can switch it to ether application. James From: jbsf2004@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: You will not see me the magazines... Sent: Wed, May 14, 2014 3:05:06 AM   Ive learned alot in the last 2 weeks reading this group, much more than all the other forums Ive read combined.I got the book today!.The info about building the water maker alone is worth the price of it. | 30849|30810|2014-05-15 07:15:55|Matt Malone|Re: You will not see me the magazines...| Snake oil salesman?   Come on.  People can look at their own wallets and decide what their price range is, and decide if they can afford/want a Dashew.   They have selected their niche.  Don't throw stones we don't need to.   I have looked at the books, they are a positive influence.  I think the books are all the Dashew this crowd will consume.  And it again sounds to me like you are trying to imply Brent is a snake oil salesman as so many have said in other forums.   Just a moment ago, I saw a 31' Brent boat built in 1995 that is still floating, fitted out, and in Mexico for $23,000.   Unless it is a rusty wreck, that is a bargain compared to some cheap foam core fibreglass boats that you could hole with the first coral head it brushes against that go for $30,000+ ready to go, in an ocean port.   Brent has a niche, say it with me, and then say no more about snake oil salesmen please.  Matt   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 14 May 2014 20:51:47 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: You will not see me the magazines...   I'm with you heretic. It's wonderful to think we could all have the perfect boat if it were 70' LOA and two million dollars. But for most of us that is not the real world. Show..me the perfect boat at 36'.. Personally I think Dashew, and i do know him, is a snake oil salesman. But it appears that snake oil sales men can hold a crowd. Hmmmmmmm. | 30850|30850|2014-05-15 07:29:58|Hannu Venermo|BS 31 in Mexico|I thought about it about 6 months ago .. its still there. It has use value to someone who goes there, and can start using it. (I could be one of those). There is a very heavy risk of most stuff being of uncertaing quality, fit and age. Isla Mujeres is far, out of the way. And a small place. No industrial outfits (mcmaster carr, carr lane, msc, etc.) nearby. You would need to use local industrial suppliers (of which there are plenty). Transport will be an issue. There is no large, cheap, well stocked availability of boaty stuff nearby. You cannot easily import stuff to mexico. Its difficult (controlled) and expensive (customs brokers are needed) and slow. So, even simple things will be hard and expensive to get. Cables, wires, connectors, plugs, drains, through hulls, vents, filters. I speak fluent spanish, as I live in Barcelona, and know mexico city quite well (can drive in Mexico City without a map), with 30.000 km by car in mexico. Been to mexico 8 times, great place, almost staid there to live. I also worked there (in cnc stuff) and with mexicans. Note its 300$ per month. This is either cheap, or not. Especially if you are supporting another place elsewhere, and or not making an income while at it. If it can be sailed away, it might be a great find. If you have plenty of time, tools, and are willing to invest money to to get everythign there, you could refit to whatever extent you want. IF the marina allows you to work on your boat (no idea). Usually, marinas have marina pricing. So buying anythign from there might be 3-4x U.S. costs, and availability uncertain. I decided to pass, because the boat is too small. Its not worth it, to me, to invest a lot of money and time to ge there, get everything there, and then sail away to wherever. I estimate that I would spend a low of 10.000 to get it running and neat, and 2 months, with some help from local labour. Probably a lot of stuff needs replacing (in all old boats). This is if winches, rigging, sails, and major driveline stuff all works ok. Uncertain. If you have time, as in retired, and no family, it would be a great project. And speak spanish, and are willing to go there. I have the tools time and skills, but I dont see an upside in it. I thought about sailing it here. Would be a fantastic trip (a few weeks), but I dont have a place and marina slots near barcelona are 200$ per month and up. And as a sinkhole for time and money, it would take all available, and more. I also need to take my family into account. -- -hanermo (cnc designs)| 30851|30751|2014-05-15 09:28:42|Tom Popp|Re: Long term maintenance|Mr. Perry. a question for you while on the origami group... in the 36-40+ range of boats, buildable in steel, which boat design would you recommend? And why? Speed? roominess? ease of build? Durability? Brents boats are a good fast build, and Roberts has a varierty of designs. depending on your need for space and traditional look vs. sailing ability. Me, I want liveability and dependability, not a racer, nor a workboat that needs a 200 Hp diesel in addition to the sails. Budget-wise, probably going with a BS design if building, but due to budget, may buy a used boat or project and rebuild. Tom in Gladstone, Oregon KA0TP| 30852|30810|2014-05-15 09:49:52|Shawn Green|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|EAT THE RICH!!! ha. Sorry i had to say it.....| 30853|30751|2014-05-15 10:21:48|Brian Stannard|Re: Long term maintenance|ChrisWhile I agree with you Brent should have thought of that before he used this forum to wrongly accuse Bob Perry of being something that he is not. In other words Brent started it. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:02 AM, Chris Harnan chris.harnan@... [origamiboats] wrote:   GentlemenI have been a subscriber to Origamiboats for many years and enjoy the comments from BS which always appear sensible and based on experience. I have a Wylo which I cruise quite extensively. I do not understand what all the latest posts are about and have no wish to comment on who is right and wrong. I do not however believe that such comments have any place on this forum and would ask that they cease as I do not wish to unsubscribe which is the only other option to avoid receiving so many nonsense posts. We all have individual email addresses. If 2 members really have something to feud over then surely that should be done direct, not over a forum.Pls lets get back to boat and sailing issues. RegardsChrisSent from my iPadOn 15 May 2014, at 04:37, "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   James:I don't weld. My son Spike is an excellent welder, a true artist. He made a suit of armor. I don't need to weld because I don't build boats I design boats. Let me say that again because I think you need it repeated. I do not build boats. I am not a boat builder. I am a boat designer. I never claimed to be a boat builder. Once again just for you, I never claimed to be a boat builder.. I have about 6,000 boats on the water to my credit. These are boats I designed. I'll make this easy for you. I do not build in wood.I do not build in aluminum.I do not build in steel.I do not build in GRP.I do not build in composite.I am only a poor designer of yachts. There, I think I made that clear.Cheers,Bob P. -- CheersBrian | 30854|30751|2014-05-15 10:26:32|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Tom:I'm not a fan of the Bruce Roberts designs. They are all over the map in terms of design quality but I have yet to see one I thought was a good design. You are certainly not going to get the personal attention building a Roberts boat that you would with a BS boat. I'm not wild about the BS boast either because I think the hull shapes are mainly an artifact of the "geometry" process required in the origami method. I like to be in total control of every inch of my hull shapes. But my approach does not allow for low cost, steel boatbuilding methods.I am a bit partial to Brent's 34'er. It has a nice look to it when detailed carefully. Some of Brent's idea don't work for me but I have seen one 34 that was a bit of a hybrid in that it combined BS details with typical modern yacht building details and it was quite a nice looking boat. Brent probably would not approve. But it looked good to me. I think Brent's bigger boat, like the one at the head of this forum beats anything I've seen from Roberts. Again, if it were detailed to my specs I think it would be a pretty nice looking boat. The hull shapes of the BS boats are very conservative. But that's ok. I'm not keen on twin keels. They may be practical if the boat will sit in the mud on a regular basis but they are not the best for performance.In fairness I have not looked at the whole range of Roberts designs available today. But I know Bruce and he's all about selling stock plans drawn up by helpers with modest design skills. He has certainly made his approach work very well for him. To each his own I guess.If I were going to build a boat and I was not a professional builder I'd look for plans from someone like Brent who can provide practical build techniques each step of the way. I'd want a lot of hand holding from someone who has done it multiple times.Cheers,bob p.| 30855|30810|2014-05-15 12:33:22|j fisher|Re: Wow, Cheap 31' for sale|I think I toured this boat when it was is SF a few years ago.  Nice young couple owned it then.  It was in good shape, interior was built more like a 26fter than a 31 as the original owner/builder had owned a 26 first. I believe they were headed south to explore south america.  On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 4:57 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Seems like a bargain if the steel alone will be $10,000 and a year of weekends to get it to built and fitted out to this extent.   It would be worth an air plane ticket to go look at it.  I am surprised a broker has not snatched it to flip for a quick $10,000. MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 19:48:10 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: You will not see me the magazines...   Ahoy- Found this post while looking for boat. It might be of interest to you. 1995 Custom steel Brent Swain 31 sailboat for sale in Outside United States 1995 Custom steel Brent Swain 31 sailboat for sale i... Monitor wind vane, autopilot, wind generator, solar charger, radar, Garmin chart plotter, EPIRB, SCUBA gear, Sardine solid fuel stove, 2 new deep ch... View on www.sailboatlistings... Preview by Yahoo 1st post, just joined Sat. Myself-60 y/o retired from 20 yrs. with FedEx-Ground in '07, sold franchise and bought 32' Endeavor sailboat and sailed West Coast of Fl. for a few years (grew up trailer sailing Com Pac 16) I'm presently boat less, always looking for boat to take Bahamas after hurricane season. Hoping start Blog by end of month (www.60yearsoflivingdangerously.com) will let know when it starts posting. contact stvndie@... Thanks-Steve    "Sea you on the next Wave!"    On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:03 PM, "James Pronk jpronk1@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I built the water maker too. Used the pump from the pressure washer that I've been wet blasting with. I have stainless high pressure quick connects so I can switch it to ether application. James From: jbsf2004@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: You will not see me the magazines... Sent: Wed, May 14, 2014 3:05:06 AM   Ive learned alot in the last 2 weeks reading this group, much more than all the other forums Ive read combined.I got the book today!.The info about building the water maker alone is worth the price of it. | 30856|30749|2014-05-15 13:26:29|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: skeg pressure thread|So, if I understand this thread ... The cooling system are running without a typical radiator cap (usually rated 12-14 lbs.)Sent from my iPhone On May 12, 2014, at 17:32, "mountain man mdemers2005@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   Ok , I''ll try that.To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Mon, 12 May 2014 16:59:10 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: skeg pressure thread   I just use a  soft plastic push on cap from the  plumbing supplies on my header tank. It hasn't blown of yet | 30857|30857|2014-05-15 14:32:36|roberthperry1946|You might find this a fun read|This has nothing to do with metal boats at all but it has to do with cruising boats. I like all kinds of boats. In my third chapter to the Baba extended family story I wrap up the journey from Babas to Panda to Tashiba.You might enjoy it if you are at all interested in the history of production boatbuilding especially as it pertains to Taiwan. My many years of working in Taiwan remains a big part of who I am today.http://perryboat.sail2live.com/| 30858|30749|2014-05-15 16:09:32|brentswain38|Re: skeg pressure thread|Yes, just a push on plastic cap. Zero pressure, no problems in the 18 years I have been using it.| 30859|30810|2014-05-15 16:20:36|brentswain38|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|What I have been trying to disabuse people of is the false  notion that  having a lot of money is a pre-requesit to enjoying the cruising lifestyle.I feel a far greater sense of accomplishment in helping someone get into a good cruising boat, who couldn't have done it the Dashew way, than I would ever get out of further padding the overpadded lives of the rich.For that, elitists attack me.| 30860|30751|2014-05-15 16:32:08|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|No Bob started it in sailnet, with his ceaseless attacks, disecting every word I  said, to try find something he can take out of context to attack me with. I didn't call Bob a pedophile. I just asked him what his posting pictures of little boys has to do with  steel sailboats .| 30861|30810|2014-05-15 16:33:06|brentswain38|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|Bob is, undeniably, one of the greatest plastic boat designers in the business. He knows next to nothing about steel boats , especially affordable steel sailboats .He has never owned one, never maintained one over a long time period,  and never cruised any serious time span or distance  in one. I have found that one learns a lot about steel boats and designing for easy maintenance after 20 years which one wouldn't know after only ten years. Expertise in one field does not automatically  transfer in to expertise in all related fieldsAsking the worlds top plastic boat designer to design you a steel boat  is like asking the worlds top gynacologist to do your brain surgery for you.( altho the organs involved have been known to sometimes switch  roles)After  imitation wooden boat building ( build  a framework and plate it) was the only way to built  a steel boat since the iron clipper ships ,origami is the only real major advancement in steel boat building  since the 1800's| 30862|30810|2014-05-15 16:37:02|brentswain38|Re: You will not see me the magazines...|Being in my third offshore boat, a 31 ft twin keeler,   it suits my personal needs perfectly . If I  won millions in the lottery I wouldn't change boats. a 70 footer would be  a huge  millstone around my neck, for the type of cruising I enjoy most .| 30863|30751|2014-05-15 16:47:06|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance| When Jack Carson began his circumnavigation in his 36 ft brentboat , he had a fire on board in Frisco Bay. The foam burned with extreme heat, but the fire stoped dead where the foam had been painted with cheap latex. While Pittsburg makes intumescent fire retardent latex, this was just the cheap stuff, which you can get from  recycling places for free.So it would probably be a good idea to paint  as much foam as possible, with latex, around where you are welding.If a fire gets completely out of control, seal the boat airtight. There is not enough  oxygen inside to support much combustion.| 30864|30751|2014-05-15 17:02:16|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|We have run a stainless pipe thru the tank to let the water in the forward sump drain aft , but I doubt it was worth the trouble. The only water you will get there in a well insulated hull is a tiny amount of condensation, which can be eliminated with anti condensation paint. Then only a fore hatch left open will let a tiny amount in, which is easily dealt with with a sponge. I like to use the front engine web ( back of the fuel tank) to keep any engine oil drippings behind it , where they can be pumped out separately, instead of letting them invade the bilge further forward. Putting  a big sheet of styrofoam on top of the centreline tank makes insulation which can be easily changed  and replaced should it get too gungy.  This gives good access to the tank and its top. Having the entire plywood floor on top of it hinged in one piece, makes for very  easy access and maintenance| 30865|30751|2014-05-15 17:11:33|Josh Trenter|Re: Long term maintenance|"I am being censored here. Don't need that." It sure doesn't seem like you are being censored.. My mailbox is filled with 5 messages from you for every one relevant post from someone else who actually has an interest in Brent's boats.  | 30866|30751|2014-05-15 17:14:56|ninbubbas|Re: Long term maintenance|Darren,What you've just seen herein is Brent's MO on every single forum he visits except this one where he's rarely challenged.Brent's defamation of Bob is completely outrageous yet he's being defended here. Why?This "trying to discredit each other with baseless and mindless insults" is completely on Brent. And it's common-place behavior for him. You all should understand that.| 30867|30751|2014-05-15 17:20:55|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|Everything I have stated is factual and  clear. From his inexpereince in steel boat ownership, building, cruising and long term maintenance, to his exorbitant prices, confirmed by him. .Oh yes the pictures are also there. Check the long list of very personal attacks and insults Bob has made on me, on sailnet.Takes two to tango.Aint taking all that without a response.Thanks for the backup friends.| 30868|30751|2014-05-15 17:51:25|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Yes BA but your response was infantile and not based on any fact. You fabricated a personal attack. Like the time you attacked my wife. There was a reason you were booted off SN. What pictures are you referring to? My sons? My grandson? My intern? My granddaughter. My dogs" My cat? Be specific. I think you are projecting. As I said before your post says nothing about who I am but a lot about who you are.I would prefer to talk about boats.I like my pricing.Ten new FT7.5's just delivered to Canada. Nice big royalty check. And no I'm, not ashamed.I am happy. I really like royalties.| 30869|30751|2014-05-15 17:57:26|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Thanks Darren. I appreciate you objective view. I admit that it's not all one sided. I have tried to keep it short of personal. BS has says some very silly things about naval architecture, i.e. a boat can have a limit of positive stability of 182 degrees. Huh? That kept me laughing for days.I though that needed correcting but you can call it 'challenging". It needed addressing before some poor guy actually believed it.| 30870|30751|2014-05-15 18:09:35|joohak|Re: Long term maintenance|Robert, when you said Brent are liar, I checked SN and found easily several photos that are totally irrelevant in middle of steelboat discussion. I understand that they are very important to you, but pictures don't belong there. I hope you don't post pictures here.Joose| 30871|30751|2014-05-15 18:11:58|Matt Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| 182 degrees -- by the usual definitions, no, one cannot have more than 180 degrees of stability, however, it would not be hard to do to create a boat with 182 degrees - so even if it rolls beyond upside down it comes back the way it went over.  It would require ballast that moves with gravity as the boat goes over, like iron cannon balls, and is then caught in a up-side down gutter along the inside of the top sides.   With enough rolling ballast, it might go 190 or 200 degrees, and then roll back the way it came.  Loose ballast can do that.  But no, with nothing moving inside, no bilateral assymetry, once past 180 degrees, if anything, you keep going for a full roll and come up from the other side.  Usual "stable" hulls are not even that close to 180.  I read that the assumption is, if you ran into something with enough disturbance to put the boat upside down, then, there soon enough there will be large enough second disturbance to get it out of the slightly stable completely upside down orientation.  Come on Brent, you never actually said 182 degrees limit of positive stability did you?  Maybe you meant 92?  But 92 is not very good.   MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 15 May 2014 14:57:25 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Thanks Darren. I appreciate you objective view. I admit that it's not all one sided. I have tried to keep it short of personal. BS has says some very silly things about naval architecture, i.e. a boat can have a limit of positive stability of 182 degrees. Huh? That kept me laughing for days.I though that needed correcting but you can call it 'challenging". It needed addressing before some poor guy actually believed it. | 30873|30751|2014-05-15 18:33:13|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Matt:Go to SN. Find the Wolfenzee thread. Then spend three days searching for the quote. It is there. There may be two "Wolfenzee" threads. You may be reading a long time.I do stability studies for all my designs. It's part of the VPP program I use. I usually do several VPP runs while I am going through the design process and various elements are still be defined. I used the same criteria as most of my peers use for stability analysis. I usually figure a limit of positive stability between 122 and 135 degrees to be quite satisfactory. There are ways you can fudge the stability study but you are only fooling yourself and your clients. I'll stick with the industry standard way of determining stability. I need to be very confident that my numbers can stand tough scrutiny by experts.On the long , skinny FRANCIS LEE project stability was a big concern with only 9'10" beam of 52' LOA.. We did multiple stability studies to be sure we were on the right track. It was more about righting moment thru the first 40 degrees we were concerned about for performance. We knew we had ultimate stability nailed.If you are really interested I'd be happy to email you a copy of the study.Cheers,Bob P.| 30874|30751|2014-05-15 18:36:01|joohak|Re: Long term maintenance|Robert, I talk boy photos, not boat photos. Boat photos are ok.Joose| 30875|30751|2014-05-15 18:38:01|Matt Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| >If you are really interested I'd be happy to email you a copy of the study. Sure, it would be interesting to see the format of the calculations.  I have done stability studies but they are entirely in the computer and output either an energy function or righting moment function (first derivative of the energy function by angle in radians).   There would be nothing to "see" really.  Matt | 30877|30751|2014-05-15 18:47:39|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|Matt:No, you are right. There is really nothing to see except for the general stability personality of the boat. This was critical for the sailmaker. The real meat of the VPP is the tabular layout of all the performance factors. This is where you really find out the boat's capabilities. But of course you cannot calculate "feel". But in that area we nailed it.Maybe some day you'll be in Seattle and we can take you out on FRANCIS.Cheers,Bob P.| 30878|30749|2014-05-15 19:11:45|opuspaul|Re: skeg pressure thread|That's right.  I wouldn't use a radiator cap.   Even if you did though, the coolant in the skeg never really heats up more than a few degrees since it is surrounded by sea water.  Pressure would be low.With mine, the coolant in the engine heats up as it circulates in bypass until the engine thermostat opens.  This only takes about 5 or 10 minutes.  Once the thermostat opens, the hot coolant then goes into the skeg at the top.... the cool coolant is drawn off the bottom of the skeg and then runs into the exhaust manifold where it gets a "pre-heat" before it goes into the engine.  I was told to do it this way to help avoid any cold shock to the engine and it has worked very well.  I have a low pressure/ high flow centrifugal pump for circulation that is built into the front of the engine just like on a car.  Since the pump is low pressure, I use 1 inch heater hose for the lines to the skeg but 3/4 inch would probably have been OK.  You may be forced to do it other ways if you have a different kind of pump.   I am not sure of that but I like this arrangement and would try to do it this way again.Anyway, there are other ways of doing it and if you search under "keel cooling" or "skeg cooling" you will find some long threads.  | 30879|30751|2014-05-15 19:44:02|joohak|Re: Long term maintenance|Robert, I believed that you want help sailors. Maybe I was wrong. Messing information sources on purpose isn't help. It's opposite. I know boys are important to you but they are still strangers for rest of us. I see continuning this discussion totally pointless and follow some wise words "I would prefer to talk about boats." Joose| 30880|30751|2014-05-15 23:52:43|Aaron|Re: Long term maintenance|BobThe last paragraph said it all. No one else should be complaining or insulting anyone we each have our ways, Thanks for joining our group even if only for a little while.Sorry that others are not always so easy get along with but that's part of life.There are a lot of things we could all learn. For most of us is how to build our own inexpensive parts with the higher quality you like to have on your designs.Who knows maybe some one here could make low cost parts and sell them to the group or for your use in your designs.I have been on Sherpa the boat on the group page very well balanced and fun to go out on. At least I think so with my limited sailing experience. The owner has spent some time with the interior it is very nice.  I modified my pilot house to meet my desires for cruising in Alaska so I can still enjoy the view in comfort. side view is closer to a Naticat motor cruiser, someone else pointed that out to me, we then superimposed a photo and they were darn close.It sure has been amazing how many people have joined in on this thread. We all love boats that is for sure.Aaron From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 6:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Tom:I'm not a fan of the Bruce Roberts designs. They are all over the map in terms of design quality but I have yet to see one I thought was a good design. You are certainly not going to get the personal attention building a Roberts boat that you would with a BS boat. I'm not wild about the BS boast either because I think the hull shapes are mainly an artifact of the "geometry" process required in the origami method. I like to be in total control of every inch of my hull shapes. But my approach does not allow for low cost, steel boatbuilding methods.I am a bit partial to Brent's 34'er. It has a nice look to it when detailed carefully. Some of Brent's idea don't work for me but I have seen one 34 that was a bit of a hybrid in that it combined BS details with typical modern yacht building details and it was quite a nice looking boat. Brent probably would not approve. But it looked good to me. I think Brent's bigger boat, like the one at the head of this forum beats anything I've seen from Roberts. Again, if it were detailed to my specs I think it would be a pretty nice looking boat. The hull shapes of the BS boats are very conservative. But that's ok. I'm not keen on twin keels. They may be practical if the boat will sit in the mud on a regular basis but they are not the best for performance.In fairness I have not looked at the whole range of Roberts designs available today. But I know Bruce and he's all about selling stock plans drawn up by helpers with modest design skills. He has certainly made his approach work very well for him. To each his own I guess.If I were going to build a boat and I was not a professional builder I'd look for plans from someone like Brent who can provide practical build techniques each step of the way. I'd want a lot of hand holding from someone who has done it multiple times.Cheers,bob p. #ygrps-yiv-2120223399 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163 -- #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-2120223399 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-2120223399 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2120223399 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-2120223399 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2120223399 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p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-2120223399 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-2120223399 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163 #ygrps-yiv-2120223399yiv8020153163ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-2120223399 | 30881|30881|2014-05-16 00:02:46|heretic_37ft|Aluminum is good too|http://www.backcountrypilot.org/images/originalphotos/2165/3781/69d53af3d88cbf6afae2131c.jpg http://www.backcountrypilot.org/images/originalphotos/21... View on www.backcountrypilot... Preview by Yahoo I love fast aluminum powerboats too.  Leaving in this little ship (above link) for three days fishing in Hawaiian waters tomorrow from Honokahau Harbor.Side note:But, after years of researching seaworthy sailboats I truly love my Brent Swain 36'.  Steel is amazing if understood.| 30882|30881|2014-05-16 00:09:48|Aaron|Re: Aluminum is good too|I used to fish for akuli at the harbor they make real good bait. From: "heretic_37ft@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 8:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum is good too   http://www.backcountrypilot.org/images/originalphotos/2165/3781/69d53af3d88cbf6afae2131c.jpg http://www.backcountrypilot.org/images/originalphotos/21... View on www.backcountrypilot... 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8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1627733070 #ygrps-yiv-1627733070yiv3263920833 #ygrps-yiv-1627733070yiv3263920833ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1627733070 #ygrps-yiv-1627733070yiv3263920833 #ygrps-yiv-1627733070yiv3263920833ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1627733070 #ygrps-yiv-1627733070yiv3263920833 #ygrps-yiv-1627733070yiv3263920833ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1627733070 #ygrps-yiv-1627733070yiv3263920833 #ygrps-yiv-1627733070yiv3263920833ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1627733070 | 30883|30881|2014-05-16 00:20:16|heretic_37ft|Re: Aluminum is good too|You seem to know the area well!  Good work! | 30884|30751|2014-05-16 00:21:14|Shawn Green|Re: Long term maintenance|Stabillity is obviously very important. There is no question about that. Where i get lost however is in the.details. For example, how can righting momentum be such a huge consideration, but structural integrity not be? So your boat will right itself, great, but what happens when you make a navigational error and hit rocks? why not factor that into stability? Or maybe, why am i drilling all these holes in my deck? to bolt down plastic cleats? isn't that stupid? how "stable" is a plastic boat in those terms? what about the ridiculously unprotected rudder? Or twelve stainless bolts holding on yer keel? Or the billion thru hulls? Admittedly I've been working like a dog all week and sleeping in a moldy trailer. But still, there doesn't seem to be anything truly stable about these ultra fast, luxurious, floating condominiums.| 30885|30881|2014-05-16 00:46:45|Aaron|Re: Aluminum is good too|Good luck Fishing From: "heretic_37ft@... 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I expect Brent was including pilothouse buoyancy in his reference to stability, not just the moment resultant from the length of keel and how much lead there is on the end of it... I know I would be safe in a BS boat. Jonathan| 30888|30888|2014-05-16 03:41:49|Jonathan Stevens|Dashews| I am a great fan of Steve Dashew; I've learned a great deal from his website. What I haven't learned and he is not likely to share, is the the actual lines of his hulls. I would love to make a model of Windhorse and play with it. If I were to enter and win the lottery, I might go shopping at his store. Mind you, one of his 64s is reporting its fuel burn at the moment; with EU laws meaning you have to use fuel with full duty paid, it would be costing me 28 pounds sterling an hour to run. Jonathan| 30889|30889|2014-05-16 03:45:38|Jonathan Stevens|Screw ups| When I pulled my hull together I tacked it together along the centreline. Later, in an idle moment, I welded the aft end solid. Big mistake. Having cut it to slot in my keel/long skeg, the welded steel has of course distorted. It is going to be really difficult to get a fair join between what were two lovely fair components before. Still, we live and learn. Jonathan| 30890|30888|2014-05-16 06:40:42|M.J. Malone|Re: Dashews| Really with modern fuel prices, no one short of a multi-millionarie could afford to take a boat without sails offshore. Matt "'Jonathan Stevens' jonathanstevens@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I am a great fan of Steve Dashew; I've learned a great deal from his website. What I haven't learned and he is not likely to share, is the the actual lines of his hulls. I would love to make a model of Windhorse and play with it. If I were to enter and win the lottery, I might go shopping at his store. Mind you, one of his 64s is reporting its fuel burn at the moment; with EU laws meaning you have to use fuel with full duty paid, it would be costing me 28 pounds sterling an hour to run. Jonathan | 30891|3207|2014-05-16 09:15:44|roberthperry1946|Re: Stability|Jonathan:Boat in question had no pilot house. It was a traditional Atkin design of moderate proportions with a low cabin trunk. Kind of a nice boat. Probably had a lps around 132 degs. Doesn't really matter what you include as buoyancy you are never going to get a LPS of 182 degrees. At that point you have capsized and are coming back on the other side. Length of keel has nothing to do with stability. It's all about VCG and  center of buoyancy.Cheers bob p.| 30892|3207|2014-05-16 10:31:20|roberthperry1946|Re: Stability|Sad news, Ted Gozzard passed away last night.Ted was a giant among Canadian boat builders. He could do it all and do it well, And yes, he did build in steel too. He was an excellent designer with a very good eye for beauty. When there is a Canadian yachting hall of fame Ted should be one of the first inductees.RIP Ted.| 30893|30751|2014-05-16 10:33:10|wild_explorer|Re: Long term maintenance|Tom,You finally need to find a time to check 40 ft origami boat I am building very close to your location :)) > Budget-wise, probably going with a BS design if building, but due to > budget, may buy a used boat or project and rebuild. > > Tom in Gladstone, Oregon > KA0TP | 30894|30888|2014-05-16 10:47:00|Brian Stannard|Re: Dashews|Actually Dashew's costs over about 50,000 miles were less with Wind Horse than Beowulf, a comparably sized ketch. Fuel and other operating costs were less per mile than sail and rigging costs. On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 3:40 AM, 'M.J. Malone' m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Really with modern fuel prices, no one short of a multi-millionarie could afford to take a boat without sails offshore. Matt "'Jonathan Stevens' jonathanstevens@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I am a great fan of Steve Dashew; I've learned a great deal from his website. What I haven't learned and he is not likely to share, is the the actual lines of his hulls. I would love to make a model of Windhorse and play with it. If I were to enter and win the lottery, I might go shopping at his store. Mind you, one of his 64s is reporting its fuel burn at the moment; with EU laws meaning you have to use fuel with full duty paid, it would be costing me 28 pounds sterling an hour to run. Jonathan -- CheersBrian | 30895|30888|2014-05-16 11:29:49|Matt Malone|Re: Dashews| I have no doubt if one has an enormous sailboat and outfits it like one is a multi-millionarie, then, no doubt it is possible to just pour diesel into an engine and get further with less cost.   Comparing one multimillionaire boat to another does not really speak to how someone with a modest budget can get out there.  Lets say one gets 6 gallons per hour at 8 knots.   The circumference of the Earth at the equator is 21,600 NM, or 2,700 hours or 16,200 gallons (US), 61,236 liters.   At $1.60/liter Canadian, that is awfully close to $100,000, before buying or building the boat or paying for anything else.  If it costs me $100,000 to spruce up and get my 41' into the water with usable sails, I would consider that a failure.  I should be able to get a plain Dacron main with reefs for about $6,000 new, or a better, but used main.  Foresails, maybe $4,000 each.  If one gets a complete wardrobe of new Dacron sails, maybe $40,000.   But there is nothing wrong with the sails I have, and getting an extra set of used sails as backup would be considerably cheaper.  Yes of course a sailboat uses fuel too, but, with solar and wind, not so much for electrics, more for manoeuvring in channels and near port, and in calms that are problematic.   If one is willing to wait for wind, one can use very little fuel.  Two years in a row, May-October, cruising every second weekend, I used 12 liters of fuel all year in my pocket cruiser.      Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 May 2014 07:46:59 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dashews   Actually Dashew's costs over about 50,000 miles were less with Wind Horse than Beowulf, a comparably sized ketch. Fuel and other operating costs were less per mile than sail and rigging costs. On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 3:40 AM, 'M.J. Malone' m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Really with modern fuel prices, no one short of a multi-millionarie could afford to take a boat without sails offshore. Matt "'Jonathan Stevens' jonathanstevens@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I am a great fan of Steve Dashew; I've learned a great deal from his website. What I haven't learned and he is not likely to share, is the the actual lines of his hulls. I would love to make a model of Windhorse and play with it. If I were to enter and win the lottery, I might go shopping at his store. Mind you, one of his 64s is reporting its fuel burn at the moment; with EU laws meaning you have to use fuel with full duty paid, it would be costing me 28 pounds sterling an hour to run. Jonathan -- CheersBrian | 30896|30751|2014-05-16 11:33:37|wild_explorer|Re: Long term maintenance|What a storm of messages lately ;))) Just want to give some comments ....1. I like many Brents ideas and he is very helpful when you ask him about practical boat building. He has his own vision on boat design and I do not see why it is bad.2. Origamiboat is similar to open source project (Brent gives road map, other exchange experience and building knowledge).3. Limitation of Origamiboat hull's form Does Exist to a certain degree, but it force you to build sea worthy boat. 4. All design and build information for Origamiboat is here (in group's messages), but it is not organized yet to be included in full documentation for Origamiboat. Brent as designer could say: "Follow the code (AWS D3.5 ,  AWS D9.1 , AWS D1.1) and other documents when you building your hull", but he gives practical support in this group instead.5. Personally, I prefer a design from people/company who build, use and maintain equipment they design. At least they catch all bugs in the design much faster. And I am in favor of single model (car, equipment, boat) which was perfected over the long period of time than making "new" one every year.6. Origamiboat stability curve is in file section of the group.7. It is possible to estimate and calculate "the feel" of the boat - done and calculated by NAVY long time ago.| 30897|30751|2014-05-16 11:48:04|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|"7. It is possible to estimate and calculate "the feel" of the boat - done and calculated by NAVY long time ago"Don't think so. Too many variables with a sailing yacht. Boat could have hydraulic steering, wheel steering or tiller steering. All would have different feels. Boat could have a big quadrant or a small quadrant, big wheel or small wheel. All variables that will affect feel. Then there is the feel of the boat as it hits a gust or hits a lull. How does the boat feel sailing through a tack? How does the boat feel when you snap a tack? How does the boat feel when you slam in a jibe? The VPP's give you a lot of data but won't tell you much about the tactile feel of the boat as it sails. For Instance the 62' FRANCIS LEE with 9'10" beam shows as pretty tender in 20 knots on the VPP but when you sail the boat and push it hard it feels quite stiff. The exact amount of helm required can be estimated but never predicted with infallibility either. Once again far too many variables, i.e. rake of mast, tune of rig, exact sail flown, cut of sails etc. One boat may be perfectly balanced while a sistership, identical may have strong weather helm due to a bagged out mainsail. Variables. You need to sail the boat to fully understand how the boat will feel. On FRANCIS LEE we have a tiller. It feels really good. We have cut 8" off the tiller. We did not need as much as I predicted.| 30898|30751|2014-05-16 12:41:57|mountain man|Re: Long term maintenance| You are building 40ft long? how thick is your plate?MartinTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 May 2014 07:33:09 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Tom,You finally need to find a time to check 40 ft origami boat I am building very close to your location :)) > Budget-wise, probably going with a BS design if building, but due to > budget, may buy a used boat or project and rebuild. > > Tom in Gladstone, Oregon > KA0TP | 30899|3207|2014-05-16 12:43:11|Larry Dale|Re: Stability|I've always liked the Bayfield boat line. It's a shame how he lost it. On Friday, May 16, 2014 10:31:24 AM, "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" wrote: Sad news, Ted Gozzard passed away last night.Ted was a giant among Canadian boat builders. He could do it all and do it well, And yes, he did build in steel too. He was an excellent designer with a very good eye for beauty. When there is a Canadian yachting hall of fame Ted should be one of the first inductees.RIP Ted. | 30900|30751|2014-05-16 14:17:27|Hannu Venermo|Re: Feel of boat| I believe the idea is about the stiffness re:roll and pitch from mass/shape per drawings. As Perry says, (well !), the tiller/transmission is a huge variable re: rig and conditions. Anecdote, not about feel. One of my best exeriences was helming an 11 m (39 ft) south african built school boat in the river hamble, uk. Very heavy (for fiberglass, solid 11+ mm thick), very stout and stiff, grp, oldish. I was on my dayskipper course in the uk. We had near-storm conditions (they built to force 9/10 in next days). We were running a spinnaker, down-wave, surfing. 10.3 knots true ! Second highest ever recorded for the boat. Note its only 11 m. On 16/05/2014 17:48, roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats] wrote:   "7. It is possible to estimate and calculate "the feel" of the boat - done and calculated by NAVY long time ago" -- -hanermo (cnc designs) | 30901|30751|2014-05-16 14:57:26|roberthperry1946|Re: Feel of boat|Hannu:That must have been exiting. It's a of of fun to push a boat to its limits.Yes, you are correct. I am talking about the entire, you could call it "holistic" nature of the boat. Not just helm pressure. Not just stability. Not just tracking but the entire performance personality of the boat. Maybe "feel" is not the best word but it's the best word I can come up with.Cheers,Bob P.| 30902|30751|2014-05-16 17:37:31|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|Thanks. I just saw an example of something done by a builder who has no serious boating experience. One of my 36 footers , built by Evan, tried to lower his mast in his tabernackle . The bottom plate was extended so far aft that you couldn't lower it. You woulkd havce to pul eht emast with acrane and cut the extension off. The ability to lower it is the whole point of the tabernackle design. Some have lowered and raised masts in the middle of nowhere, with no help required from so called 'Civilization." While Evan is a meticulous master craftsman in steel, far more meticulous than I could ever be, he has almost zero boating experience. This is one of several such screwups, which  someone with long term cruising experience would never do.I'd rather be cruising in a boat which is rough and right than in one which is meticulously wrong.To design and build a good long distance cruising boat, actual experience in long term cruising is invaluable, especially in the type of boat you are planning on cruising in. However much time and experience a designer and builder may have . they are bound to inevitably miss a lot of important points if they have never done any long term cruising and living aboard.Neither Bob nor his  brown nosed groveling groupie, Smack have any such long term cruising experience, and no hands on building experience.Bob has stated that he sometimes gives a builder nothing but  a set of lines and a sail plan and leaves the rest up to the builder. Doesn't sound like much of a "structural analysis", or detailed plans, or taking responsibility for how the boat ends up.   When a designer sells a set of plans he has no control over how the builder builds her. Providing good detail  and directions is all he can do.My book and plans go together to provide far more detail than most designs ever come close to.  How many designers include how to build a watermaker. windvane self steering , anchor winch, roller furling,  composting or lavac style head, bilge pumps, engine driven welder, heating stove, etc etc.I doubt very much if Bob includes that kind of info in his plans.| 30903|30888|2014-05-16 17:48:31|brentswain38|Re: Dashews|Jack Carson sailed one of my 36 footers from Mexico to New Zealand on 35 gallons of fuel.My first  trip from BC to New Zealand used far less. My second trip to Tahiti and back to BC  took even less, as didnt have an engine. When its calm, you read.Used sails have never cost me more that $350 each , jib and main, for my 31 footer. They could have lasted a circumnavigation.  Given the amount of petroleum product in a sail , what does that work out to in miles per gallon, or dollars per mile?  Bob, the crowd you hang out with is completely out of touch with this kind of reality. The rest of us live it ,full time.| 30904|30751|2014-05-16 17:52:37|brentswain38|Re: Feel of boat|When a boat rolls, the keel is the centre of the roll. With twin keels, you have two centres, fighting each other as to who will be boss. Tht is why bilge keels are often used as roll dampers on cruise  ships . Dividing the ballast between two keels also takes the snap out of  a roll.| 30905|30889|2014-05-16 18:01:50|brentswain38|Re: Screw ups|I have put  a good weld aft, then cranked it down with a hydraulic jack into  a wineglass shape. Then I fit the skeg on the outside, and back it up with transverse webs inside, with  gussets along the skeg side weld line.  This gives the equivalent strength of slotting the skeg sides into the transverse webs. The single keel, I slot in, after welding temporary  angles across the slot before cutting it out.| 30906|30751|2014-05-16 18:06:38|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|Look at the stock sliding  hatches which gush water every time a solid greeny hits them. Round the world racers gave up on them  decades ago.Look at the wooden toe rails which have dozens of screw holes in the decks, which Hal Roth couldnt get rid of quick enough. after rounding the Pacific with them.| 30907|30751|2014-05-16 18:16:46|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|Then Bob started posting everything  but the subject at hand, to sabotage the steel boat discussion.I don't have the equipment to post drawings .| 30908|30751|2014-05-16 18:19:25|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|182 degrees is a typo Bob has been harping on ever since. Shows where he is coming from.It is 178 degrees  measured from the other side.| 30909|30751|2014-05-16 18:29:33|roberthperry1946|Re: Long term maintenance|178 degrees  from the other side?Ok, say I give you that. Which is a gift because it is not what you said. You said "182 degees".It is totally impossible that this boat has 178 degrees of positive stability, Are you kidding me? 178 degrees?Are you kidding me? Look at the boat. There is no way in hell it has 178 degrees of positive stability "from the other side". That is really beyond comprehension. If your Coolaid drinkers want to buy it then so be it. But it is not the real world.Walk it back all you want Brent but your words are there. I suggest you stay quiet where numbers are concerned. As you say, you have a problem with math. Really? I can see that very clearly.Talk about welding. Talk about eating meat preserved in cooking oil. But please leave the technical side of naval architecture to those who understand it. This way you won't look stupid.| 30910|30751|2014-05-16 18:29:35|dan seng|Re: Long term maintenance|To All,  I have been a member of this group for almost two years and information shared amongst the group on a whole is informative.  That being said, I’m amazed at the infantile attacks that are becoming the norm as of late.  I have two young children that use the same arguments as I’ve been reading.  I respectfully suggest that the group confine the discussions to boat building, design, etc.  We all know the saying, if you don’t have something nice to say….    Best,   Dan Seng From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 2:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Yes BA but your response was infantile and not based on any fact. You fabricated a personal attack. Like the time you attacked my wife. There was a reason you were booted off SN. What pictures are you referring to? My sons? My grandson? My intern? My granddaughter. My dogs" My cat? Be specific. I think you are projecting. As I said before your post says nothing about who I am but a lot about who you are.I would prefer to talk about boats.I like my pricing.Ten new FT7.5's just delivered to Canada. Nice big royalty check. And no I'm, not ashamed.I am happy. 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#ygrps-yiv-1050321319yiv6371742588ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1050321319 #ygrps-yiv-1050321319yiv6371742588 #ygrps-yiv-1050321319yiv6371742588ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1050321319 | 30912|30751|2014-05-16 18:34:06|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|I have never mentioned meat preserved in cooking oil.  Another Bob fabrication,( Like so many).Positive stability to 178 degrees is common on narrow boats , with  deep keels.My 31 has 6 ft 2 inch headroom under the trunk cabin.| 30914|30914|2014-05-16 18:54:43|smallboatvoyaguer|Headroom throughout|Perhaps this has been answered, but I have a hell of time searching the thread archives here.In the 31' and 36' BS boats what sort of headroom is there forward of the pilot house? Obviously there is standing headroom in the pilot house, but I am wondering about the rest of the vessel. | 30916|30751|2014-05-16 19:27:16|James Pronk|Re: Long term maintenance|Mr PerryWhen are you going to contribute or start talking about steel boat related subjects.Tired of going through your posts thinking "hey this guy is a great designer, maybe he has something to say about steel boat building". But in the end it is just another attack on someone who is helping people live there dream, by showing them there is another way to build that will save them money for cruising. James From: roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance Sent: Fri, May 16, 2014 10:53:02 PM   Brent:You say it was a "typo". Ok I do lots of typos. I can't type and I can't spell. But I look at my keyboard and  I wonder how you can try to type "178" and in fact end up with "182". You must have a very different keyboard than I have or you are a liar. You should really stay away from any numbers.Go to Sully's sight and see Brent posting about preserving meat in cooking oil. It is there. I'll post a link. The really funny irony here is that his post is right above the post for curing diarrhea. I am not clever enough to make this up. | 30917|3207|2014-05-16 19:40:38|brentswain38|Re: Stability|He did very practical, solid cruising boats .| 30920|30751|2014-05-16 21:10:02|jhess314|Stability|Bob, Apologies to all for a question neither about origami design or steel boats, but I’m curious about the stability of a Bolger-designed plywood sharpie sometimes called an AS-39 (Advanced Sharpie 39’, actually slightly less than 38’). Now I know it is a very ugly boat, so don’t waste your time reminding me, but it does have some redeeming values; ultra shoal draft (1 foot) and huge interior volume for its length. But with a beam of only 8’, and all of its ballast inside the hull, I wonder what its stability looks like in its first 40 degrees of heel, as you mentioned studying on your FRANCIS LEE? Do you have any experience with flat-hulled sharpie designs? Can you give me a professional guess what its stability curve looks like? I know it will pop up from a knock-down, per its owner whose sailed it across the Atlantic. But what will a long narrow boat with internal ballast sail like compared to one with deep draft and external ballast? Below are the basic dimensions of Loose Moose II (AS-39). Johnhttp://s30.postimg.org/4gbs470z5/Loose_Moose_II.jpg http://s30.postimg.org/4... View on s30.postimg.org Preview by Yahoo  ---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :...I do stability studies for all my designs. It's part of the VPP program I use. I usually do several VPP runs while I am going through the design process and various elements are still be defined. I used the same criteria as most of my peers use for stability analysis. I usually figure a limit of positive stability between 122 and 135 degrees to be quite satisfactory. There are ways you can fudge the stability study but you are only fooling yourself and your clients. I'll stick with the industry standard way of determining stability. I need to be very confident that my numbers can stand tough scrutiny by experts.On the long , skinny FRANCIS LEE project stability was a big concern with only 9'10" beam of 52' LOA.. We did multiple stability studies to be sure we were on the right track. It was more about righting moment thru the first 40 degrees we were concerned about for performance. We knew we had ultimate stability nailed.If you are really interested I'd be happy to email you a copy of the study.Cheers,Bob P. | 30921|30751|2014-05-16 21:21:07|roberthperry1946|Re: Stability|That's a trough one John. I knew Phil Bolger and I love his work so no, I do not think that boat is an ugly boat. Not sure I have ever seen an ugly Bolger boat. Unusual looking yes but Phil knew exactly what he was doing.My quick guess is that the LPS for that flat bottomed boat would be 107 degrees. Maybe 105 degrees. It would be rather stiff up to about 35 degrees than flatten out a bit and really fall off past 70 degrees. You just can;t get much RM with internal ballast on a flat bottomed boat. But up to 30 degs I think you would feel just fine. I have never done a boat quite like that. My 40' container cruiser comes close but it had a fin keel with a bulb.That's the best I can do with a quick guess. But I am pretty good at guessing these things.For the record you can mark me down as a Phil Bolger fan.Cheers,Bob P.| 30922|30751|2014-05-16 21:38:12|jhess314|Re: Stability|Bob,I'm very surprised that you think the LPS would be anywhere near 107 degrees! Compared to most sharpies the AS-series has a very high freeboard, with a small trunk cabin, and with a small cockpit open to the stern. I would think that its RM would be quite substantial once it was lying flat in the water. Even as it approached 180 degrees I wonder if the curved deck and trunk cabin would make it very unstable inverted. But I do wonder what it is like in the 45-degree range, when the flat bottom is no longer flat?John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :That's a trough one John. I knew Phil Bolger and I love his work so no, I do not think that boat is an ugly boat. Not sure I have ever seen an ugly Bolger boat. Unusual looking yes but Phil knew exactly what he was doing.My quick guess is that the LPS for that flat bottomed boat would be 107 degrees. Maybe 105 degrees. It would be rather stiff up to about 35 degrees than flatten out a bit and really fall off past 70 degrees. You just can;t get much RM with internal ballast on a flat bottomed boat. But up to 30 degs I think you would feel just fine. I have never done a boat quite like that. My 40' container cruiser comes close but it had a fin keel with a bulb.That's the best I can do with a quick guess. But I am pretty good at guessing these things.For the record you can mark me down as a Phil Bolger fan.Cheers,Bob P.| 30923|30751|2014-05-16 22:05:29|Matt Malone|Re: Stability| John,Well, Robert has done stability for a lot of shapes so maybe he is right, but, with only 1 foot of draft, it has to be a very low-ballast design.   With the gaff rig, the mast is shorter, but, past 45 degrees, it seems to me the mast has a lot of anti-stability compared to the shorter moment arm of the ballast (beam/sqrt(8)).  It could easily have a stability of a little less than 90 degrees.   The mast may provide positive buoyancy (wood) when it is past 90, so, it may lay on its side, stable (until disturbed), or, slightly favouring standing up but staying down for a while if the sails become awash, possibly a long time if the sails are repeatedly awash.   With Its flat deck, no coach house, it looks like it would have another stable orientation upside down.   Really, when one has a long box with 4 pretty flat sides, there is a  chance it can be stable or close to stable on all 4 sides.  "Tall narrow sections, a low rig, and well secured ballast should give  Loose Moose II a good range of stability."But water in the tank if half-full, fuel in the tank if half full, and anything not secured would work against stability.  With more ballast, it would float lower and 90 degrees could not be a stable orientation.  Really, how often is a 1' draft an advantage over a 2' draft ?   Ok, some river, some sandbar that even a big outboard motorboat cannot reliably get over.... but really, you are deep in the blue on the chart, there could easily be an uncharted bowling-ball sized rock or cement block.It does look easy to build and spacious at least.  Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 May 2014 18:21:06 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stability   That's a trough one John. I knew Phil Bolger and I love his work so no, I do not think that boat is an ugly boat. Not sure I have ever seen an ugly Bolger boat. Unusual looking yes but Phil knew exactly what he was doing.My quick guess is that the LPS for that flat bottomed boat would be 107 degrees. Maybe 105 degrees. It would be rather stiff up to about 35 degrees than flatten out a bit and really fall off past 70 degrees. You just can;t get much RM with internal ballast on a flat bottomed boat. But up to 30 degs I think you would feel just fine. I have never done a boat quite like that. My 40' container cruiser comes close but it had a fin keel with a bulb.That's the best I can do with a quick guess. But I am pretty good at guessing these things.For the record you can mark me down as a Phil Bolger fan.Cheers,Bob P. | 30924|30751|2014-05-16 22:58:10|roberthperry1946|Re: Stability|I think you both make great points but with all these dynamic situations there are a lot of variable. So in order to get some consistent and reliable figures we need to agree on some common elements.If I am to go with the standard method of my peers I would forget about deck structure. Too many variables for accurate comparisons. Just look at the hull. We can easily define that. If you want to go further answer these questions:  Is the boat filling with water? That changes everything. How fast is it filling? What are the waves doing? We are trying to arrive at a simple two dimensional answer for a very complex three dimensional  dynamic problem. This is why I do not place much importance on static stability studies. I'm sure Bolger never did almost any. BS hasn't a clew and thinks 182 degrees is reasonable. My claim is that Bolger and BS have a feel for what works. It's not numbers but it is a tactile feel for what a boat does. In my book that's good enough. My problem with Mr. BS is that reduced to a textbook examination of stability, something anyone calling therm selves a yacht designer" should know, he is a fool. He lacks in the basic elements of naval architecture. 182 degrees? That is a joke. Ok give him the benefit of the doubt, it was a typo. Still 178 degrees is ridiculous considering the boat in question. It IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Be real or shut TFU!Stability is a hard area that has been debated and discussed for many years. After The Queen's Birthday Storm the Australians did exhaustive stability studies including a lot of tank test work. In the end the only conclusion they could all agree t was, the bigger the boat , the less likely it was to roll over.Do your own research. It's all out there.Cheersbob p.| 30925|30751|2014-05-17 00:46:14|wild_explorer|Re: Long term maintenance|Mr. Perry, I read several  several questions you answered... "Many variables" as the best answer for some questions? Really?Sure, it is need to do some calculations... That what Naval Engineers do. But as I understand, you are Yacht Designer, not Naval Engineer. Am I correct?Yes, the sailboat has more variables than the ship, but big task can be split on sub-tasks and calculated. Agree, still not all variables can be predicted/calculated. But close enough for reasonably accurate estimates. Especially with computers and 3D. Lot of research done in this field.As I know, many inventions (including hull forms) were made by people who did not know the math and even  how to read ;))) So, I respect Brent for his self-education.P.S. Many salesmen use the same tactic - make things sound more complicated than it is in reality ;)P.S.S. Personally, I have nothing against you... Just voicing my observations based on your posts in this group..."7. It is possible to estimate and calculate "the feel" of the boat - done and calculated by NAVY long time ago"Don't think so. Too many variables with a sailing yacht. Boat could have hydraulic steering, wheel steering or tiller steering. All would have different feels. Boat could have a big quadrant or a small quadrant, big wheel or small wheel. All variables that will affect feel. | 30927|30751|2014-05-17 01:01:39|wild_explorer|Re: Long term maintenance|3/16 plate for the hull (the same as Brent recommends).Brent pointed out several times that there is practical limit on the size of the boat and plate thickness you can use for Origami hull. That why Brent limit his boats from 26 to 40 ft (most practical 36 & 40 footers). > You are building 40ft long? how thick is your plate?>> Martin | 30928|30751|2014-05-17 01:11:44|Chris Salayka|Re: Long term maintenance| !!! We need a moderator.The moderator takes the bad apple out of the barrel before the whole barrel is spoiled. There is enough shite going on in the world – we don’t need it on this forum!!! This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. | 30929|30751|2014-05-17 01:16:35|wild_explorer|Re: Long term maintenance|No, Mr. Perry. Not at all. And I am not looking for "another heated discussion" in this group with you or anybody else ;) > Wild> You sound angry. | 30930|30888|2014-05-17 04:11:55|Brian Stannard|Re: Dashews|MattI agree - I think even your numbers are high for sails. I was just saying that at the Dashew's level the fuel costs on an economical power cruiser were less than the sail/rigging costs on a comparably sized ketch. Nothing budget about the Dashews and Steve has a racer's attitude for speed under sail. Their sailboat designs are designed and built to power through calms at 9 or 10 knots. They are not customers for used sails - or anything else. On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Matt Malone m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   I have no doubt if one has an enormous sailboat and outfits it like one is a multi-millionarie, then, no doubt it is possible to just pour diesel into an engine and get further with less cost.   Comparing one multimillionaire boat to another does not really speak to how someone with a modest budget can get out there.  Lets say one gets 6 gallons per hour at 8 knots.   The circumference of the Earth at the equator is 21,600 NM, or 2,700 hours or 16,200 gallons (US), 61,236 liters.   At $1.60/liter Canadian, that is awfully close to $100,000, before buying or building the boat or paying for anything else.  If it costs me $100,000 to spruce up and get my 41' into the water with usable sails, I would consider that a failure.  I should be able to get a plain Dacron main with reefs for about $6,000 new, or a better, but used main.  Foresails, maybe $4,000 each.  If one gets a complete wardrobe of new Dacron sails, maybe $40,000.   But there is nothing wrong with the sails I have, and getting an extra set of used sails as backup would be considerably cheaper.  Yes of course a sailboat uses fuel too, but, with solar and wind, not so much for electrics, more for manoeuvring in channels and near port, and in calms that are problematic.   If one is willing to wait for wind, one can use very little fuel.  Two years in a row, May-October, cruising every second weekend, I used 12 liters of fuel all year in my pocket cruiser.      Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 07:46:59 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dashews   Actually Dashew's costs over about 50,000 miles were less with Wind Horse than Beowulf, a comparably sized ketch. Fuel and other operating costs were less per mile than sail and rigging costs. On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 3:40 AM, 'M.J. Malone' m_j_malone@... [origamiboats] wrote:   Really with modern fuel prices, no one short of a multi-millionarie could afford to take a boat without sails offshore. Matt "'Jonathan Stevens' jonathanstevens@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I am a great fan of Steve Dashew; I've learned a great deal from his website. What I haven't learned and he is not likely to share, is the the actual lines of his hulls. I would love to make a model of Windhorse and play with it. If I were to enter and win the lottery, I might go shopping at his store. Mind you, one of his 64s is reporting its fuel burn at the moment; with EU laws meaning you have to use fuel with full duty paid, it would be costing me 28 pounds sterling an hour to run. Jonathan -- CheersBrian -- CheersBrian | 30931|3207|2014-05-17 05:09:52|Shawn Green|Re: Stability|Any Farley mowat fans? found a book called the black joke. Its great how all the best old sailing books are about boats built by eye and feel. Its perfectly doable.| 30932|30751|2014-05-17 06:28:17|jhess314|Re: Stability|---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :(RP) I think you both make great points but with all these dynamic situations there are a lot of variable. So in order to get some consistent and reliable figures we need to agree on some common elements.If I am to go with the standard method of my peers I would forget about deck structure. Too many variables for accurate comparisons. Just look at the hull. We can easily define that. If you want to go further answer these questions:  Is the boat filling with water? That changes everything. How fast is it filling? What are the waves doing? (JH) I am assuming that the hull is not breached, and that there are substantial wind and waves. (RP) We are trying to arrive at a simple two dimensional answer for a very complex three dimensional  dynamic problem. This is why I do not place much importance on static stability studies. I'm sure Bolger never did almost any. (JH) I asked Susanne Altenburger if there was a stability graph for AS-39. She said no, that that design was done before they had started to use computers.(RP) Stability is a hard area that has been debated and discussed for many years. After The Queen's Birthday Storm the Australians did exhaustive stability studies including a lot of tank test work. In the end the only conclusion they could all agree t was, the bigger the boat , the less likely it was to roll over.Do your own research. It's all out there.Cheersbob p.(JH) I've looked through Marchaj's book Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor. It doesn't seem to have a lot dealing with sharpie-type hulls. My skills in the area of Hydrodynamics are miniscule,  so I had hoped you might be able to give me more guidance.I understand that many "traditional" sailboat designs will roll badly in a seaway if dismasted. Do you think a sharpie-type hull will be less unstable if dismasted?Thanks for your expertise.| 30933|30751|2014-05-17 06:42:01|jhess314|Re: Stability|Matt,The owner of Loose Moose II told me that when knocked down she popped back quickly. It appears that when lying on its side the high, long freeboard gives plenty of buoyancy (assuming no down flooding), and that there is enough ballast (3000# lead secured to hull bottom) to provide a sufficient righting moment. My question was what its stability was like in major waves when heeling under sail? At that point the flat bottom may no longer be giving a lot of form stability, and there may not be enough of the side of the boat immersed to have created a very long righting arm between the buoyancy and the ballast. But I don't know...John---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :#ygrps-yiv-482915171 #ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693 .ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-482915171 #ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693 .ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}John,Well, Robert has done stability for a lot of shapes so maybe he is right, but, with only 1 foot of draft, it has to be a very low-ballast design.   With the gaff rig, the mast is shorter, but, past 45 degrees, it seems to me the mast has a lot of anti-stability compared to the shorter moment arm of the ballast (beam/sqrt(8)).  It could easily have a stability of a little less than 90 degrees.   The mast may provide positive buoyancy (wood) when it is past 90, so, it may lay on its side, stable (until disturbed), or, slightly favouring standing up but staying down for a while if the sails become awash, possibly a long time if the sails are repeatedly awash.   With Its flat deck, no coach house, it looks like it would have another stable orientation upside down.   Really, when one has a long box with 4 pretty flat sides, there is a  chance it can be stable or close to stable on all 4 sides.  "Tall narrow sections, a low rig, and well secured ballast should give  Loose Moose II a good range of stability."But water in the tank if half-full, fuel in the tank if half full, and anything not secured would work against stability.  With more ballast, it would float lower and 90 degrees could not be a stable orientation.  Really, how often is a 1' draft an advantage over a 2' draft ?   Ok, some river, some sandbar that even a big outboard motorboat cannot reliably get over.... but really, you are deep in the blue on the chart, there could easily be an uncharted bowling-ball sized rock or cement block.It does look easy to build and spacious at least.  Matt #ygrps-yiv-482915171 #ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693 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#ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693ecxygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-482915171 #ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693 .ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693ecxygrp-text p { } #ygrps-yiv-482915171 #ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693 .ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693ecxygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-482915171 #ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693 .ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-482915171ygrps-yiv-732973693ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 30934|30751|2014-05-17 07:17:37|mountain man|Re: Long term maintenance| I tought that 40 footers used 1/4 in. plate...To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 16 May 2014 22:01:38 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   3/16 plate for the hull (the same as Brent recommends).Brent pointed out several times that there is practical limit on the size of the boat and plate thickness you can use for Origami hull. That why Brent limit his boats from 26 to 40 ft (most practical 36 & 40 footers). > You are building 40ft long? how thick is your plate?>> Martin | 30935|30935|2014-05-17 07:44:34|ragnarpar|40' mast stiffener|Ok I noticed that in one of the 26 build outs that several mast braceing / stiffeners were added. So, does the 40 footer require such add ons to prevent any oil canning or such???? I am meeting with severe resistance to obtaining 40' sheets. Local welder talked about copper strip on back side of weld to join a couple 20s. Any pros or cons concerns or thots??? Thanks Har har har 18 months and the rudder is about done. Arrggh! had to build a crane on the trailer just to move it about Par Come on Bob, it's a motly crew here, roll with it, set the example if you feel inclined. I used to dream about yer boats when I was but a wee lad, but now realize that there are practical alternatives to just dreaming. I would enjoy chatting galleys and cooking with you as I too enjoy cooking. Cheers. Let's keep it positive and not be so thin skinned. No one here thinks yer a pedophile. Just that ya pizzed off Brent with some snootiness. And no we are not all cool aide drinkers and slamming everyone here is a horindus show of lack of sportsmanship. I have enjoyed wilds vocabulary for years and his homework and questions answered many of my concerns. Ease up ole Bean! Let's build boats Argh! CapnPar| 30936|30751|2014-05-17 10:31:00|roberthperry1946|Re: Stability|Mr. Hess:We have two things going on here:I'm not sure that we are on the same page with the term "knockdown".Maybe put that term aside for now understanding, for me, that it means being knocked to approximately 90 degrees due to having too much sail up. That is one stability issue. You get that sharpie type heeled more than 110 degrees it's not popping back up in my opinion.This is hard without pencil and paper but I'l give it a shot. Like I said, I have never designed a flat bottom boat so this is new territory for me.If we confine ourselves to wind and waves and what happens to a dismasted sharpie I think the answer is yes, the dismasted sharpie with the VCG dramatically lowered due to lack of mast would be susceptible to being rolled over. This is counter intuitive because in a computer stability study the dismasted sharpie would show a far greater righting moment due to its lower VCG. It would be quite stiff at low angles of heel. That's the problem. It's all about how the boat rides in the waves. Boats with excessive initial stability will try to conform to the face of each wave maintaining their centerline perpendicular to the face of each wave. An initially tender boat like my Valiant 40 or a BS boat with it's high deadrise will not quickly react to each wave face. The wave passes by the hull without the boat reacting. Look at anchored boats in a harbor. Look at which boats are thrashing around in the wakes of other boats.It's the initially tender boat that lies quiet at the mooring or at anchor.So with the initially stiff, dismasted sharpie trying to maintain perpendicular alignment it would probably be more likely to be flipped over than the high VCG boat with mast in place. Like I said it's a bit counter intuitive.Mast up or mast down,  if I owned a big, internally ballasted sharpie type I'd always sail it aware of the fact that it could capsize if pushed too hard.Bob P.| 30937|30751|2014-05-17 10:52:23|roberthperry1946|Re: Stability|I made the mistake of being a bit too general with the term "sharpie " in my previous post. There would be a great difference in stability characteristic between a low freeboard sharpie and a high freeboard sharpie. The high  freeboard of the boat in question  would greatly increase resistance to capsize.| 30938|30751|2014-05-17 16:52:59|wild_explorer|Re: Long term maintenance|If 1/4" plate was used vs. 3/16, the hull shell will be ~1.3 times heavier. More important practical problem to pull half of the shell together is that 1/4" flat plate has stiffness ~2.35 times more than 3/16 plate. > I tought that 40 footers used 1/4 in. plate... | 30939|30751|2014-05-17 17:31:52|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|3/16th is plenty for  a 40 footer. 1/4' for over 45 feet.| 30940|30935|2014-05-17 17:39:03|brentswain38|Re: 40' mast stiffener|I use a half inch plate arch under the mast  to take the loads to the cabin sides. I connect the cabinsides ( longitudinal  beams on edge, supported by the cabin top on top and side decks on the bottom) to the chines by a length of sch 40 pipe. Structurally, the chines are just as strong and solid as the centreline. Taking the support pipes there just means  a shorter and thus much stronger pipe support. It also gets the mast support out of the way of the interior.| 30941|3207|2014-05-17 17:46:13|brentswain38|Re: Stability|I'm  a big Farley Mowat fan. Too bad we lost him. I remeber when I was building ,my last boat, a guy who built a boat there mentioned how he once had a question . So he took his question the old time boatbuilders up the river. When he asked the old timers if he should do it this way or that way, the answere he got was "It doesn't matter!"He said "What kind of answer is that?"The old timer looked at him and said "On a boat, if it looks right it probably is right."He left pissed off, and much later said "Man ,the trouble and expense I would have saved myself had I only listened to that old fart!"| 30942|30751|2014-05-17 17:53:50|mountain man|Re: Long term maintenance| Ok, good info to haveTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 17 May 2014 14:31:52 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   3/16th is plenty for  a 40 footer. 1/4' for over 45 feet. | 30943|30914|2014-05-17 17:56:10|brentswain38|Re: Headroom throughout|My boat is a 31. Forward of the pilot house, under the trunk cabin,  I start with 6 ft 4 inches going down to 6 ft 2 inches. Haidan, who is 6 ft 6 inches tall,  has adequate headroom under the trunk cabin of his 36 ft brentboat. Making even greater headroom is possible in the building stage, with slightly narrower floor.| 30944|30751|2014-05-17 18:00:53|brentswain38|Re: Long term maintenance|"Angry" is how Perry defines anyone who disagrees with him in any way. If you were not 'Angry" according to Perry, you would  agree with everything he says,  even when he puts out total bullshit.He made the same claim to m, anytime I disagreed with him, on any point.Looks like Perry is obviously a few bricks short of  a full load.| 30945|30889|2014-05-17 18:06:01|brentswain38|Re: Screw ups|You could try cutting the aft centreline free, leaving only a on inch tack every six inches intact. It may pop back to fair.  Then, after the transom is in, re weld it . Make sure you grind it out after doing the first weld, to get full penetration, and avoid any slag inclusion.| 30946|30751|2014-05-17 18:11:45|brentswain38|Re: Stability|Cruising World had a good article on this once. They put  a model in a tank and gave it a measured size wave. A wave which only knocked it to 35 degrees with the mast in , rolled it completely over once the mast was taken out.  That is why boats sometimes get rolled over a second time if they lose the mast on the first rollover. By the time the intertia of the mast is overcome, and the mast is set in motion, the wave has already passed.| 30947|30751|2014-05-17 18:16:24|Barney Treadway|Re: Stability|Colvin has a ton of sharpie and sharpie inspired designs. He had two identical ones that he tested rigs on. Fun reading. Barney Treadway On May 17, 2014 8:52 AM, "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" wrote:   I made the mistake of being a bit too general with the term "sharpie " in my previous post. There would be a great difference in stability characteristic between a low freeboard sharpie and a high freeboard sharpie. The high  freeboard of the boat in question  would greatly increase resistance to capsize. | 30949|30751|2014-05-17 19:56:20|opuspaul|Re: Stability|If you want to be comfortable on a boat and want your electrical equipment and electronics to stay working, then it is important to keep everything dry and free of salt.   Shaft seals can leak and waves or spray will sometimes comes through a hatch so therefore good cruising boats should have a fairly large sump, low in the bilge to collect any water.  On a flat bottomed boat, this can be very hard to do.   If a flat bottomed boat had no sump or low part in the bilge, it would only take a gallon or two of water to slosh around throughout the boat and completely soak everything.   The same goes for very shallow bottomed ultralight designs.| 30950|30751|2014-05-17 20:57:31|roberthperry1946|Re: Stability|Opus:I totally agree with you. That is why I have always, OK almost always, tried to design a natural bilge into my boats. Living through the IOR era and having had a lot of first hand experience with those boats I can tell you that a nice deep bilge is the way to go for cruising boats.Can I get an amen on that?Bob P.| 30951|3207|2014-05-17 23:07:35|jbsf2004|Re: Stability|Just Ordered the Black Joke and The Boat Who Wouldnt Float from Amazon after reading this post.I read them  almost 40 years ago.They made an impression.RIP Farley.| 30952|30751|2014-05-18 07:09:44|jhess314|Re: Stability|Yes, Bolger's Advanced Sharpies are significantly different from typical sharpies.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :I made the mistake of being a bit too general with the term "sharpie " in my previous post. There would be a great difference in stability characteristic between a low freeboard sharpie and a high freeboard sharpie. The high  freeboard of the boat in question  would greatly increase resistance to capsize.| 30953|30935|2014-05-18 07:31:43|ragnarpar|Re: 40' mast stiffener|Yeh ok, looking at the plans i can see the struts from the 1/2" bracing.  Looking at and reading Kim's buildout, i see three sets of struts on his 26 and read that there was a discussion ref placing a second set in to avoid any pumping action on the cabin top?  He says he just put the third set in the 26 because he had the pipe left over.So, I ask on the 40' should a second or third set of struts go in and if so how far aft of the mast placement??Thanks for any other tid bits that you recommend adding to or adjusting to the 40' in particular.Cheers Par| 30954|30935|2014-05-18 12:24:05|akenai@yahoo.com|Re: 40' mast stiffener|Try to find Gordens 40 he has some inffo in the files section. My computer is down or I would try to send a link. He uses two arches under the mast. Maybe 12" apart ? Aaron Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From: ragnarpar@... [origamiboats] ; To: ; Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 40' mast stiffener Sent: Sun, May 18, 2014 11:31:43 AM   Yeh ok, looking at the plans i can see the struts from the 1/2" bracing.  Looking at and reading Kim's buildout, i see three sets of struts on his 26 and read that there was a discussion ref placing a second set in to avoid any pumping action on the cabin top?  He says he just put the third set in the 26 because he had the pipe left over.So, I ask on the 40' should a second or third set of struts go in and if so how far aft of the mast placement??Thanks for any other tid bits that you recommend adding to or adjusting to the 40' in particular.Cheers Par | 30955|3207|2014-05-18 12:46:10|ANDREW AIREY|Stability|Does the presence of water in the bilge of a flat bottomed boat have the same effect on stability as it does on the car deck of a car ferry? I'm assuming no obstruction to water flow.It seems to have been responsible for several catastrophic capsizes.cheersAndrew Airey| 30956|3207|2014-05-18 13:17:53|roberthperry1946|Re: Stability|Andrew:Yes. That would be called "free surface effect" and it can  be very significant. Fill a dink half full and see what happens.Bob P.| 30957|30751|2014-05-18 13:23:28|Scott Carle|Re: Long term maintenance|Mr. Perry,Do you realize how that sounds. You just sent a message saying I'm better than you! see who I hang out with? Then you give the equivalent of a raspberry at Brent. Seriously? Um... high school comes to mind for behavior contemporary to this. You do realize that everything you have posted here or anywhere on the web will be here forever for everyone to read. I once blasted someone inappropriately 15 years ago in a forum/email and I can still do a google search and find it. I apologized soon after for what I said but there is still a record showing me to be an ass on that occasion. How about you take a moment to think if this is worth your time to let yourself go there. I'm sure Mr. Spur is happy to have you showcasing him in the middle of your fight with Brent as a character witness, so to say, also.Honestly I'm thinking maybe you've had one to many to drink while posting as I couldn't have imagined someone with your professional credentials and reputation going on like this. Get a grip man.Scott From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2014 6:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Boy Brent, you do sound angry and bitter.I am spending the day with Dan Spurr, author of HEART OF GLASS and  ex editor of CRUISING WORLD. 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li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-292315175 | 30959|30751|2014-05-18 18:35:35|a.sobriquet|Re: Long term maintenance|That's the sort of fun that jerks have.---In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote :Scott:You are projecting.I'm having fun.Dan and I had a great time and a nice dinner. That all.Bob P.| 30961|30751|2014-05-18 19:45:28|Scott Carle|Re: Long term maintenance|Sir... I say this with all sincerityMaybe you don't realize how your coming across then and that is a problem all on its own. I don't have a dog in the issue between you and Brent. I do have one in this forum. So take this from someone that isn't on one side or the other. I've had my go arounds with Brent a time or two so I am not biased either way, but the way you have addressed this here and the things you have said not only to Brent but to others here on the forum don't portray you in a good light. My last post wasn't me projecting but me saying how what you typed and posted sounded like to me reading it. I think that you should get a couple friends that you trust and that are the types of friends to tell you when your being an idiot and not what they think you want them to say to read some of your posts and listen to what they have to say. I can tell that you don't believe me, and since you don't know me from Adam thats fine. However, at least get an opinion from someone you trust. Your doing yourself a disservice if you continue to sound like you have here, especially  if you truly don't realize you are being perceived in such a negative light for it. If you do realize. and are just messing with us, that again is a whole different thing.This isn't about your fight with Brent but your manner of expressing yourself here on the forum. Sincerely Scott From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Scott:You are projecting.I'm having fun.Dan and I had a great time and a nice dinner. 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#ygrps-yiv-2112872335yiv5002760988ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-2112872335 #ygrps-yiv-2112872335yiv5002760988 #ygrps-yiv-2112872335yiv5002760988ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-2112872335 | 30963|30751|2014-05-18 22:40:04|Scott Carle|Re: Long term maintenance|Mr. Perry,You seem to be deliberately fishing for an antagonistic response. I retract my now rather naive post earlier where I wanted to believe you didn't know exactly what effect your words were having. I see you for the rather intelligent man you are.I doubt this will do any good, but I think it would be good if you went somewhere else other than this forum. You are feeling really reminiscent of one or two other posters from the forums past that just seemed to delight in causing strife and caused no end of bad feelings. I now think you are just delighting in being taunting and a bit malicious. I can't speak for everyone nor do I have the power to make you be civil but I would appreciate you taking your feud with Brent somewhere else and just leave us here in peace. None of the rest of us here have ever had issue with you to date that I know of, I would be very happy to have that state of affairs continue.To the Forum Members,Maybe I am out of line to have even responded as I have and I apologize if I have overstepped myself in addressing this. It just struck a raw spot for me ... We have had a relatively long stretch of good behavior and good talks on the forum and this whole thing just took me back a few years to similar stuff that I think a lot of us found really trying. I just hoped that addressing it head on would moderate it and maybe get us back debating boats in a straight forward manner. I admit I have been a bit blunt about it but that is just how I see it and I have spoken my piece. I'm going to try and just turn loose of it now and move on to something else.Thank youScott From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   So, if I understand you correctly and I read between the lines I can take it that you won't be buying my book.If having a nice dinner with a very old friend in your eyes make me a "jerk" then I think you have some serious personal issues. I love cooking dinner for friends.Dan came in from Montana. We go way back. Thirty years.  It was a good dinner, Jamie Oliver's "Jools best stew". Google it. It is a great recipe. I really like feeding my friends great dinners. If that makes me a "jerk" in your eyes. Then that is in your eyes. Dan had second helpings. I had left over stew for breakfast.I think I may start calling it "jerk" stew.Try it and let me know what you think of it. 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#ygrps-yiv-1499398527yiv4134490971ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1499398527 #ygrps-yiv-1499398527yiv4134490971 #ygrps-yiv-1499398527yiv4134490971ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;} #ygrps-yiv-1499398527 | 30964|30751|2014-05-18 23:16:42|Chris Salayka|Re: Long term maintenance|Scott I agree fully with you and appreciate the care you took with your words. I think/hope that a consensus of forum members would agree with you. A friend of mine has suggested that we simply, and completely, ignore, that is, not respond to Mr. Perry’s posts. This works for me. I would also like to say that a bright side to all this is realizing that this is a great forum with good people. No ego, no games, intelligence, humour – so, Mr. Perry, as you said yourself, you do not belong here and a number of us are asking you, kindly, to return to the forums and places where you are appreciated. Chris From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 18 May 2014 19:40 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance Mr. Perry, You seem to be deliberately fishing for an antagonistic response. I retract my now rather naive post earlier where I wanted to believe you didn't know exactly what effect your words were having. I see you for the rather intelligent man you are. I doubt this will do any good, but I think it would be good if you went somewhere else other than this forum. You are feeling really reminiscent of one or two other posters from the forums past that just seemed to delight in causing strife and caused no end of bad feelings. I now think you are just delighting in being taunting and a bit malicious. I can't speak for everyone nor do I have the power to make you be civil but I would appreciate you taking your feud with Brent somewhere else and just leave us here in peace. None of the rest of us here have ever had issue with you to date that I know of, I would be very happy to have that state of affairs continue. To the Forum Members, Maybe I am out of line to have even responded as I have and I apologize if I have overstepped myself in addressing this. It just struck a raw spot for me ... We have had a relatively long stretch of good behavior and good talks on the forum and this whole thing just took me back a few years to similar stuff that I think a lot of us found really trying. I just hoped that addressing it head on would moderate it and maybe get us back debating boats in a straight forward manner. I admit I have been a bit blunt about it but that is just how I see it and I have spoken my piece. I'm going to try and just turn loose of it now and move on to something else. Thank you Scott _____ From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance So, if I understand you correctly and I read between the lines I can take it that you won't be buying my book. If having a nice dinner with a very old friend in your eyes make me a "jerk" then I think you have some serious personal issues. I love cooking dinner for friends. Dan came in from Montana. We go way back. Thirty years. It was a good dinner, Jamie Oliver's "Jools best stew". Google it. It is a great recipe. I really like feeding my friends great dinners. If that makes me a "jerk" in your eyes. Then that is in your eyes. Dan had second helpings. I had left over stew for breakfast. I think I may start calling it "jerk" stew. Try it and let me know what you think of it. Skip the Jerusalem artichokes. Bob P. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 30965|30751|2014-05-19 00:16:42|opuspaul|Re: Long term maintenance|Scott, I don't think you are out of line at all.   I agree with you 100%.   The out of place comments are infantile and don't sound like fun to me but sound more like trash talk.   I have always thought that trash talk says more about the person doing it than it does about the target.   I hate trash talk, whether it is two guys on a sports field saying how wonderful they are or two guys discussing who's car is the fastest.  In both cases, I think the guys are really missing something. I have always tried to judge people on their deeds and action rather than their mouth.   It is incredible to me that Mr Perry, with his great body of work which I admire thinks he needs to engage in it.   It is not a good look. â€œThere is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.” Ernest Hemingway.“Who knows himself a braggart, let him fear this, for it will come to pass that every braggart shall be found an ass.” William Shakespeare  | 30966|30966|2014-05-19 02:22:40|heretic_37ft|Robert (Bob) Perry|Mr. Perry speak your mind.  I actually enjoy some of your posts (or at least amused by them).  The bottom line is I want to choose in the end what suits me and you do not have an issue with that, so stay.Brent Boats suit me almost perfectly here (and now) in Hawaii .  But, I enjoy your company even if your opinions are far from what I choose.  Please do feel everyone here is out for fight.  You known more, than most, about making a living designing boats and I respect that.Anyway, I am fishing off Kona tomorrow solo... | 30967|30751|2014-05-19 03:05:54|Shawn Green|Re: Long term maintenance|I can assure you that Brent is not angry.  In fact, when i see him, he is always smiling, happy to joke, and thrilled to help out with anything. I couldn't ask for a better boat designer. | 30968|30966|2014-05-19 10:51:03|Par|Re: Robert (Bob) Perry|Ya ya beet me to it. Nice to see the subject/ topic bar changed so that when someone is researching maintenance or what they don't get stuck on two weeks of banter. Even though i find it somewhat enlightening, this banter, although it may come through as bickering, this banter. With the kids away at college, it makes it seem like they are still around, this banter, har har har. So if this doesn't come up on a new subject line, or the one i am replying to as bob perry, might i suggest that someone take the opportunity to creat a topic "bp banter" until we find some methods and or technique of value, and when the "thread drift" drifts,maybe title it as thread drift? and when a personal non boat, tool, technique pictures are posted, title or caption them as family or thread drift so to alleviate such banter???? My apologies for the coarseness here, racing about prepping bees to move, just thought i would try to clean things up a bit. Please enjoy the expressions and remarks as before, but please do not tie up a working researchable topic / heading, thats all. Thanks guys and gals, Arrgh! Par| 30970|30751|2014-05-20 07:43:03|Matt Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| Yes, "angry" is definitely an obvious discussion tactic with Robert.   Wild had a good question, why "many variables" was the answer.In the case of "feel" or dynamic response, there are actually many variables.  One could use linear systems theory:acceleration = A * velocity + B * input + gF * position   g = gravityF = a matrix of hull form-derived constants that includes masses and moments of inertiaB = the input influence matrixA = system state matrixThis equation, using matrices is just short-hand for a lot of individual equations.   Position = { roll angle, pitch angle, yaw angle, forward position, lateral position, plunge position }All of these are relative to a steady-state track, given a particular set of sails, sail settings, steady wind value from a given direction etc.   Inputs = { rudder, wind gust, wind direction shift, swell, swell angle to heading}One has to evaluate the numbers in each position of the matrixes, 6x6 for A, 5x6 for B, 6x6 for F.  This is a tremendously difficult job in practice.   This is the method used to determine the flight stability of aircraft.  The elements in A are called stability derivatives.   Lets evaluate just one to see how it is done.   Lets assume the boat is on a beam reach.  Lets assume the boat is heeled over to leeward more than it would normally be, and it is rolling back to less of a heel.  Most people who have sailed will realize the boat surges forward, gets a forward acceleration, and a little boost in speed.   So, A_1,4 > 0:forward acceleration = A_1,4 * roll rateOne could estimate A_1,4 for a particular steady state wind on a beam reach.   One down, 105 constants left to go.   The problem is, the constants in these matrices are not constants and would change with a change in steady state speed, heading relative to the wind, and wind speed. Also, this equation could not predict the sudden loss of power of sailing at the limit of close hauled and going up losing thrust from the sails. How in the heck can this be done with airplanes and be so complicated for sailboats?  Because airplanes do not have keels, there is no need for the equations to be relative to the earth.  Heading relative to the wind is therefore irrelevant.   The equations are instead written relative to the moving air.  To calculate speed over ground, one does a vector addition, same as for a boat in a water current, but that is after all the stability is calculated.   Also, airplanes really have one cruising speed for which these constants are calculated, and, inputs are generally ignored for basic stability.  So there is just the A matrix, only 36 unknown constants to determine.http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1952/naca-report-1098.pdfThis is one of the references used to calculate some of the constants.  The bilateral symmetry of airplanes makes a lot of the constants zero.  As the boat heels, its displacement profile is not symmetric so, no such luck for boats.   So, Wild, is is hugely complicated to do anything scientific and strictly numerical for sailboat feel.   I am sure naval architects have rule of thumb formuli.  I am sure naval engineers calculate something.  I am also pretty sure they just build it and sail it to see if they are right.  After all, it has a keel in the water, and buoyancy, it cannot sink.  It is not like an airplane that can come spiralling out of the sky and crash, so, there is really no need to do it right before building it.  And then there are test pilots for the first flight anyway.So contrasting what Robert does, and what Brent does.   Robert draws pictures, and most certainly does some calculations.   Then someone else builds it, tests it and makes sure it works, then Robert gets royalty checks.   Brent designed it, built it, was the first test pilot, then went to other people's build sites, helped them get started, etc.And no Robert, I am not angry.Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 17 May 2014 15:00:53 -0700Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   "Angry" is how Perry defines anyone who disagrees with him in any way. If you were not 'Angry" according to Perry, you would  agree with everything he says,  even when he puts out total bullshit.He made the same claim to m, anytime I disagreed with him, on any point.Looks like Perry is obviously a few bricks short of  a full load. | 30971|30751|2014-05-20 10:10:53|Matt Malone|Re: Long term maintenance| Scott,He is clearly here just to stir the pot.   Ok, so he threw in some photos of boys.  Seems a pattern to disrespect his audience.   Brent made a statement Robert did not like, so, Robert is here to piss in the soup.  He has I believe twice referred to "drinking the koolaid" in reference to us and Brent.  Those of us old enough to remember Jonestown, where a leader poisoned his entire following, will take that as an insult both to us and Brent.  First to Brent that he is leading people to their death.  I will ask an uncomfortable question, has a Brent Swain design ever sunk and killed either crew or passengers?   Has a Robert Perry design ?   Without knowing the answer, I think Brent will come off better.   Second he insults us that we are not individuals capable of critical thought.   His only meaningful contribution I have counted so far is, in answer to a question, will a partially flooded boat's stability be affected, to which he answered yes, free surface effects are important.   What he failed to say is, flooding can make a boat more or less stable.   So, no, you are not wrong Scott.  Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 18 May 2014 19:40:03 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Mr. Perry,You seem to be deliberately fishing for an antagonistic response. I retract my now rather naive post earlier where I wanted to believe you didn't know exactly what effect your words were having. I see you for the rather intelligent man you are.I doubt this will do any good, but I think it would be good if you went somewhere else other than this forum. You are feeling really reminiscent of one or two other posters from the forums past that just seemed to delight in causing strife and caused no end of bad feelings. I now think you are just delighting in being taunting and a bit malicious. I can't speak for everyone nor do I have the power to make you be civil but I would appreciate you taking your feud with Brent somewhere else and just leave us here in peace. None of the rest of us here have ever had issue with you to date that I know of, I would be very happy to have that state of affairs continue.To the Forum Members,Maybe I am out of line to have even responded as I have and I apologize if I have overstepped myself in addressing this. It just struck a raw spot for me ... We have had a relatively long stretch of good behavior and good talks on the forum and this whole thing just took me back a few years to similar stuff that I think a lot of us found really trying. I just hoped that addressing it head on would moderate it and maybe get us back debating boats in a straight forward manner. I admit I have been a bit blunt about it but that is just how I see it and I have spoken my piece. I'm going to try and just turn loose of it now and move on to something else.Thank youScott From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   So, if I understand you correctly and I read between the lines I can take it that you won't be buying my book.If having a nice dinner with a very old friend in your eyes make me a "jerk" then I think you have some serious personal issues. I love cooking dinner for friends.Dan came in from Montana. We go way back. Thirty years.  It was a good dinner, Jamie Oliver's "Jools best stew". Google it. It is a great recipe. I really like feeding my friends great dinners. If that makes me a "jerk" in your eyes. Then that is in your eyes. Dan had second helpings. I had left over stew for breakfast.I think I may start calling it "jerk" stew.Try it and let me know what you think of it. Skip the Jerusalem artichokes.Bob P. | 30972|30751|2014-05-20 13:25:34|karl34gustav|Re: Long term maintenance|Boy Bob, having a nice time since you found one more way to be nasty and spoil many forum visitors day and still enjoy a nice time with your ex editor who we all value very much. I have almost all years of CW in a shelf. Never saw any tendency of your unpolstered disrepect for another fellow man in CW. Talk to that man about your ego trip problems in this forum and get some solid advice. Plus ask him to become our MODERATOR!| 30973|3207|2014-05-20 13:41:24|brentswain38|Re: Stability|Put four inches of water in a dingy with no dividers, and watch it slosh around,the weight of it threatening to capsize the dinghy, and you get a good idea of what free surface does to stability. The weight of the water sloshes to one side.If that  doesnt capsize her, it then sloshes to the other side| 30974|30935|2014-05-20 13:59:18|brentswain38|Re: 40' mast stiffener|Structurally, the cabinside is a longitudinal beam on edge. Support it at any two points and a third support becomes redundant. Two at the mast step  works, but the other two can be anywhere long the box structure of the cabin. Putting them under the cockpit also works. The cockpit well is a box section, supported by the transom at one end . Put supports along it and the front end holds up the back of the cabin, which in turn holds up the cabin sides.This kind of structural planning can eliminate a lot of redundant bits and pieces, reducing the time and money needed to build  a boat, along with reducing  needless complexity.| 30975|30975|2014-05-20 14:11:56|brentswain38|Small plates|A while back someone asked about using less than full length plates. I have built several; 36 footers using less than full length plates . If done right the seam can be invisible. Using a 20 ft and 16 plate, puts the seam at the same place as the transverse  bottom seam,leaving you only the distance form the sheer to the chine to deal with. I grind a 45 degree angle on both edges for full penetration from the first weld. The first weld does little in the way of distortion, it simply pulls the edges together when it shrinks. Its the second weld which is most likely to give you problems.When I line up the edges for welding, I weld pieces of plate on edge across the seam. to keep them in line. Then I put 4 inch welds , widely spaced, along the seam for full penetration, letting each one cool before putting another next to it, keeping an eye out for any distortion as they each  cool. The outside seam I weld after the hull has been pulled together. As you have ful penetration on th einsode weld th eoutside one should b etiny , . I grind out the seam from the outside, with a 1/8th inch grinding wheel., only til I see solid metal with  no cracks . then I do an uphand welds, one inch at a time, widely spaced , with 1/8th inch 6011. letting each weld cool before putting another next to it. As this will be ground flush, there is no point in putting any more weld on than it takes to  fill the grind slot. Steel is shipped in coils, like huge rolls of toilet paper. This is rolled flat and cut wherever thre supplier pleases. So the claim that they cant do it in 36 ft  sheets is total bullshit. They are simply to lazy to deal with big sheets. Whatever they send you was probably cut off a 150  foot length, for their convenience.| 30976|30751|2014-05-20 14:13:11|Dennis Mcfadden|Re: Long term maintenance| Scott: I have refrained from jumping into this ongoing list of obviously malicious discussion. Perhaps I should have said so sooner but this verges on childish school ground warfare. We don't need it. Your position is undoubtedly supported by most forum members, you certainly said it appropriately and in as good taste as this issue allows. Thank you for doing so.Dennis McFaddenVancouver, Canada   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 18 May 2014 19:40:03 -0700Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   Mr. Perry,You seem to be deliberately fishing for an antagonistic response. I retract my now rather naive post earlier where I wanted to believe you didn't know exactly what effect your words were having. I see you for the rather intelligent man you are.I doubt this will do any good, but I think it would be good if you went somewhere else other than this forum. You are feeling really reminiscent of one or two other posters from the forums past that just seemed to delight in causing strife and caused no end of bad feelings. I now think you are just delighting in being taunting and a bit malicious. I can't speak for everyone nor do I have the power to make you be civil but I would appreciate you taking your feud with Brent somewhere else and just leave us here in peace. None of the rest of us here have ever had issue with you to date that I know of, I would be very happy to have that state of affairs continue.To the Forum Members,Maybe I am out of line to have even responded as I have and I apologize if I have overstepped myself in addressing this. It just struck a raw spot for me ... We have had a relatively long stretch of good behavior and good talks on the forum and this whole thing just took me back a few years to similar stuff that I think a lot of us found really trying. I just hoped that addressing it head on would moderate it and maybe get us back debating boats in a straight forward manner. I admit I have been a bit blunt about it but that is just how I see it and I have spoken my piece. I'm going to try and just turn loose of it now and move on to something else.Thank youScott From: "roberthperry1946@... [origamiboats]" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Long term maintenance   So, if I understand you correctly and I read between the lines I can take it that you won't be buying my book.If having a nice dinner with a very old friend in your eyes make me a "jerk" then I think you have some serious personal issues. I love cooking dinner for friends.Dan came in from Montana. We go way back. Thirty years.  It was a good dinner, Jamie Oliver's "Jools best stew". Google it. It is a great recipe. I really like feeding my friends great dinners. If that makes me a "jerk" in your eyes. Then that is in your eyes. Dan had second helpings. I had left over stew for breakfast.I think I may start calling it "jerk" stew.Try it and let me know what you think of it. Skip the Jerusalem artichokes.Bob P. | 30977|30977|2014-05-20 14:38:31|brentswain38|Priorities|I could spend a lot of cruising time sanding my paint job , to make it look like imitation fibreglass, to impress the cosmetic crowd and carter to  their expectations. . Or I could go sailing. I could also waste  a lot of time polishing my stainless to make it all look freshly electro polished .Or I could go diving. I could waste a lot of time embelishing my interior , catering to those who's opinions I have no need to give a rat's ass about, Or I could go fishing.  Not volenteering to be a slave to  the demands of the cosmetic crowds bullshit demands on how I spend my time sounds like a lot more fun.After all , as I point out in m y book , you can determine the value of advice by what it has done for the person offering it. So ,if you let the demands of the cosmetic crowd tel you how to spend your sailing weather, you will end up spending it all being a slave to someone else's demands, and spending  your time in a marina , to follow their "Keep up with  the Joneses" religion.  After al the main purpose of  a yacht is a" status symbol" , sailing time  is well down their list of priorities.We have all been having a good laugh at a new steel boat around here. The boat was built and fitted out right next to a scrapyard, full of sch 40 SS pipe for $1.80 a pound. So what does he use for bow and stern pulpit. New, yachtie extruded tinfoil, thin walled stuff. He hired a guy at $80 an hour to spend weeks tacking it together. On top of that  was the welding . They used jewelers files for hours making it perfect( at $80 an hour!) A friend did the same job with sch 40 stainless pipe in three hours, at under $30 an hour. If one wanted shiny, it would take a small amount of time to  make the sch 40 every bit as shiny as the "Yachtie "tinfoil job. The tinfoil job was bolted down on a steel deck ( far more prone to problems) instead of welded down .The sch 40 job was welded down, the best way to attatch anything to a steel boat.I have been told the boat took ten years .to build. When he gets out cruising he will meet all kinds of very happy cruises who took far  less time and money building,  and spent the bulk of the last ten years cruising.( Which is supposed to be the purpose of a cruising  boat)| 30978|30977|2014-05-20 15:11:09|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|If you let the  'stylishness " demands of others dictate how you are going to  spend your time, you will end up doing  as little cruising time and as much embellishing time ( and paying for it) as they do| 30979|30977|2014-05-20 17:39:55|don bourgeois|Re: Priorities| I think you should make yourself satisfied with your own choices. If you want a dock queen then so be it. If you want a more utilitarian boat then make or buy one. Is one better then the other? I guess it depends on your perspective. This site is for people interested in steel origami boat construction and lifestyle. Hopefully, this can blowover as I believe most members would rather talk about origami boat building rather than a p***ng contest.   I, myself think origami boats are beautiful as form follows function. If you want to polish stainless one can always do so after construction, or maybe you discover it's more fun going fishing instead.   Don. B   From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [ mailto: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 2:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Priorities     If you let the  'stylishness " demands of others dictate how you are going to  spend your time, you will end up doing  as little cruising time and as much embellishing time ( and paying for it) as they do | 30980|3207|2014-05-21 09:49:03|aguysailing|Re: Stability|Farley Mowat... rip....  so many years, so many wintery nights with those great story telling books of his ... inspires re-reads.  He was also in WW2 in combat and as a war correspondent and wrote from a very deep emotional well about what the men faced in war.  Very worthwhile to read the war years.  Helluva champion for wilderness and dug deep when it came to financially supporting conservation.| 30981|3207|2014-05-21 14:31:07|brentswain38|Re: Stability|Thankfully we had him as long as we did. A truly great Canadian writer| 30982|30751|2014-05-21 14:38:09|brentswain38|Re: Stability|When you are talking about capsize, you are talking about a huge sea running. If a boat capsizes, there is a big enough sea running  to take her far from the 180- degree inverted position, making an  extremely high AVS number irrelevant. It is not as if the sea would suddenly go flat calm immediately after the capsize,leaving her at 180 degrees. The same sea which capsized her, would roll her well within the self righting angle,  immediately .| 30983|30751|2014-05-21 14:55:02|Matt Malone|Re: Stability| That is the theory at least and in most cases is true.   But there are a lot of photos of boats floating turtled, so, one has to believe, it does not happen quickly enough in all cases for marginal designs. Matt  To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:38:08 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Stability   When you are talking about capsize, you are talking about a huge sea running. If a boat capsizes, there is a big enough sea running  to take her far from the 180- degree inverted position, making an  extremely high AVS number irrelevant. It is not as if the sea would suddenly go flat calm immediately after the capsize,leaving her at 180 degrees. The same sea which capsized her, would roll her well within the self righting angle,  immediately . | 30984|30977|2014-05-22 02:11:39|nofacey|Re: Priorities|Hi, I'm Norm, long time orgami group member - and builder of the shiny yacht with tin railings.The boat didn't take ten years - it was 14. I built it in my spare time while working, raising a family, and enjoying  life, with the goal of it being a retirement vehicle after our kids were on their own. Kids are off and doing well - and it's about to be our turn....we leave for Mexico in the fall, planning for the south pacific next spring. Bucket list includes the Panama canal and the Caribbean. It's not orgami - I considered that, but decided to go another way, for my own reasons. I respect Brent boats, but wanted something different - boat building for me is a creative outlet, and my wife and I see the boat as a practical work of art. It is also a tough sailboat that has more offshore capabilities than we hope to need - we're planning on tradewind sailing, not extreme latitude expeditions - but the boat can do both. It also draws eyes, and (normally!) appreciative comments where ever we go. I follow multiple forums, orgami amongst them, because good ideas come from many directions. Brent might not have recognized them, but it has several of his ideas built in - stainless rod integrated into the hull at wear points, SS pipe welded in below the waterline, with surplus SS ball valves used as thruhulls, and the interior spray foamed. Every exterior surface, including the hatch & turtleback are gently curved, making use of his observations on stiffness and strength benefits on doing so. The SS railings are works of art by a highly skilled tradesman. He doesn't need to use jeweler's files - his joint fitting is superb, and his tig welding skills exceed mine (and most everyone else's I seen on the island) by orders of magnitude. Nope, they are not the lowest cost practical alternative - but they do match the fit & finish on the rest of the exterior.I'm happy with the decisions that went into our boat, and proud of the (almost) finished product. It's a boat built by, and for my wife and I - don't assume we're doing it for anyone else's approval - it's not stylish - it's beautiful, by our eyes. I know, because whenever I walk away, it's usually backwards.| 30985|30977|2014-05-22 14:34:41|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|You mentioned French Polynesia. I have some charts of that area if you want to photo copy them. A friend finishing  a circumnavigation in a 36 I built will be home from there in June. His blog shows the huge changes in the Marquesas since I was last there ( new breakwaters etc)He said they didn't require a bond for Canadian boats, only US ones.| 30986|30751|2014-05-22 14:38:17|brentswain38|Re: Stability|The key word is "Marginal " designs, such as boats with an AVS of near 125 degrees . This would be  beamy flush deckers. They have  a tendency to stay capsized no matter how rough the sea. Narrower boats with trunk cabins should have no such problems.| 30987|30987|2014-05-22 14:45:41|brentswain38|Thru hulls|A BC ferry skipper told me he was looking at heavily corroded  mild steel thru hulls on a BC ferry and asked "Why don't you use stainless?" The reply he got was "It may cause corrosion." as they stood over the heavily corroded mild steel thru hulls. My friend replied . "The stainless thru hulls on my brentboat have shown no sign of electrolysis in the 20 years I've used them ." No reply!Bureaucracies require that you leave your brains at the door, and let them to all your thinking for you..A stainless liner with an airtight  weld on both ends would eliminate such corrosion problems, permanently .It could be done in minutes.| 30988|30977|2014-05-22 14:55:35|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|If you enjoy a long , expensive building process, as a hobby, more power to you. However, some , who just want to get out cruising , quickly, and affordably, get mislead to believe that is their only option.| 30989|30977|2014-05-23 16:02:38|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|A search under Australian yacht sinking youtube , shows why a steel boat is a good choice  for offshore cruising| 30990|30977|2014-05-23 16:33:50|Matt Malone|Re: Priorities| Brent,Are these the ones you are talking about:http://www.latitude38.com/features/nzstorm.htmWhere several yachts ran into trouble with fatalities?  The Tayana 37, that is one of Robert Perry's designs right ?  MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Fri, 23 May 2014 13:02:37 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Priorities   A search under Australian yacht sinking youtube , shows why a steel boat is a good choice  for offshore cruising | 30991|30977|2014-05-24 02:00:44|nofacey|Re: Priorities|That would be much appreciated Brent - I have some charts, so it'd be great to fill in the holes - and update in key areas.| 30992|30977|2014-05-24 17:22:15|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|Did you build your boat from scratch?| 30993|30977|2014-05-24 17:53:12|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|Thanks. Great article. They type of transom hung rudders I use, with 1 1/4 inch stainless gudgeons, and a welded on 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe tiller , wouldn't have had structural failures. The very simple self steering  I use eliminates breakage.   While  a steel boat would have been very dented and battered alongside a freighter, it wouldn't  have been holed . I remember a steel 45 footer in Campbell River which had pounded in open ocean against a concrete breakwater in Florida. Altho severely battered `and dented, she had no leaks, and was sailed without repairs from Florida to BC. A well built steel boat with welded down gear, and  proper hatches wouldn't have been taking on any water. The boat  I was talking about was off Perth.| 30994|30977|2014-05-24 17:54:44|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|There is a chart atlas available , going from Tijuana to Panama.| 30995|30977|2014-05-24 17:59:47|brentswain38|Re: Priorities|The Tayana has an inboard rudder and usually wheel steering, nowhere near as tough and reliable as a transom hung rudder with a  sch 40 pipe tiller. Plastic crushes easily and holes,  in conditions which will only dent and stretch steel plate ( without holing it.)| 30996|30977|2014-05-24 20:42:39|opuspaul|Re: Priorities|Here is what happens when a so-called "top-notch" plastic fantastic hits and pounds for a few days on a Hawaii reef.  This is very sad.   Everybody makes mistakes but a better navigation system and a little bit of common sense would have gone a long way.   Hopefully it won't be the end of a dream.  If it was a Brent boat, I think it probably would have been hauled off the reef by something passing by and you would never have heard about it.http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2014-05-23# Nordic 40: The Belle of Bellingham Nordic 40: The Belle of Bellingham Fast, weatherly, and comfortable, this fine cruiser still lives up to its billing. From 'Classic Plastic' in our March 2009 issue. View on www.cruisingworld.com Preview by Yahoo  | 30997|30997|2014-05-25 09:01:09|James Pronk|Re: Priorities/ hard on the rocks|Damn! Those crusty edges will get you every time!So easy to judge ones moves when your sitting high and dry!So sad to see someone's dreams go this way. James| 30998|30977|2014-05-25 10:15:40|Matt Malone|Re: Priorities| Nordic 40:  solid hand-layup fibreglass hull.   Such a hull is strong against hits.  It has a very high elastic limit meaning it springs back from even extreme deflection, it does not dent.  These two in combination make it tough, like a rubber boat.  Unfortunately the material is not as hard as coral, so, it is scratched by coral.   Resting up against anything that is harder for a period of time, and it can be holed.   This is true of a steel boat as well and pointy igneous rocks like granite with a high silica content.   The tropics mainly have coral and coral sand.  Silica sand is common away from the tropics.  A "soft" material like a rope with some silica sand on it can cut steel too.  The soft material provides the pressure, the silica provides the cutting power.  I have seen a soft material with silica sand on it cut clean through steel, stainless steel, high-strength steel braid, anything really, and not leave a mark on the soft item.  But it takes months of movement.   Like at an anchorage after you have flown home.     The Nordic 40 is not much different than my boat.   The differences: mine has 1000 pounds more ballast, is nearly the same length, and is 2 feet narrower in the beam meaning a smaller cabin but it ought to have better ultimate stability properties.What I take from this story is an Important safety tip: carry a real chart, and a hand held GPS, even if you have an automated system.  I think we all have a story of the hand held GPS coming in handy.     Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sat, 24 May 2014 17:42:39 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Priorities   Here is what happens when a so-called "top-notch" plastic fantastic hits and pounds for a few days on a Hawaii reef.  This is very sad.   Everybody makes mistakes but a better navigation system and a little bit of common sense would have gone a long way.   Hopefully it won't be the end of a dream.  If it was a Brent boat, I think it probably would have been hauled off the reef by something passing by and you would never have heard about it.http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2014-05-23# Nordic 40: The Belle of Bellingham Nordic 40: The Belle of Bellingham Fast, weatherly, and comfortable, this fine cruiser still lives up to its billing. From 'Classic Plastic' in our March 2009 issue. View on www.cruisingworld.com Preview by Yahoo   | 30999|30977|2014-05-25 18:14:30|opuspaul|Re: Priorities|I have seen quite a few fiberglass boats after they have hit reefs.  Also a few ferro cement and metals ones.    The fiberglass boats were generally better than the ferro cement but not nearly as good as the metal boats.   Some of the metal boats took terrific poundings and dented but never holed.   These were bad conditions....fiberglass hulls would have been torn to bits.Fiberglass is not nearly as elastic as you think....think about it....glass is brittle and it is being held together with a brittle resin.  It can only bend so much.   Kevlar and other composites with more flexible epoxy resin is much, much more forgiving but how many yachts are made with that?   So normal fiberglass may deflect with a blow but if it goes too far, internal damage to the glass fibers has occurred.  The next blow causes more damage, etc.   After several cycles, it starts tearing and then it is game over.  Also, the interior bonding of the bulkheads and structures like floors which gives rigidity to the hull will often break away and may not be seen until later.   This causes flexing and can be very difficult to fix.  This happened to a friend on a Hunter 41.....the hull looked fine after all the repairs but unfortunately the flexing damage that had occurred on the reef had broken the bonding of the hull to the interior.   At sea, the hull started flexing and the keel started cracking.....the skipper ended up scuttling the boat and was lucky to survive.I saw another boat, a Hallberg Rassy after only about 1 hour on a reef in very small waves.  It had egg shell cracks all over the hull and pin hole leaks in every crack.   You could see a light shine through the hull.....it looked like a spider web.   It didn't sink and we got it off the reef but it needed extensive reconstruction that took many weeks afterwards.   A steel boat would have only needed a paint job.#ygrps-yiv-539378206 #ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760 .ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760ecxygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-539378206 #ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760 .ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760ecxygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-539378206 #ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760 .ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760ecxhd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-539378206 #ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760 .ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760ExternalClass #ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760ecxygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760ecxads { } #ygrps-yiv-539378206 #ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760 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#ygrps-yiv-539378206ygrps-yiv-1056588760ecxygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}| 31000|30977|2014-05-25 21:48:27|Matt Malone|Re: Priorities| The glass fibres in new and well preserved fibreglass are not brittle.   Glass is brittle because it has minuscule surface cracks that greatly amplify the stresses, and the glass starts fracturing from these very small imperfections.   The imperfections rate is a number per square meter of surface.  The clever trick in fibreglass is to draw the glass out into a thin fibre with a very small circumference.   The imperfection rate is unchanged per unit area and becomes an imperfection rate per mile.   The thing is, once the imperfections are spread out on the order of feet to meters apart, the glass fibre between the imperfections is actually both stronger and more elastic than all but the most exotic steels.   (The best experimental high strength steels now they are discovering have very complex crystal structures, or even glass states with no crystal structure.)     With matrix with a suitably high shear strength, the overall material will benefit from the strength and elasticity of the glass fibre divided by at least 3, maybe 5 in a very wet layup.   One has to divide by 2, because half the fibres are going one way in a good layup and half go the other way.   Then one has to account for the fraction of the layup that is plastic.  A very dry layup might get down to 25% resin without vacuum bagging.  Old and poorly preserved glass fibres are actually chemically attacked by water.  The water creates more imperfections, and enlarges the ones that are there.   The water unzips the bonding by putting more - OH groups on the surface and then breaking hydrogen bonds to create more - OH.   Eventually, glass fibres will turn into short segments, and sand.   That is why it is so important to protect fibreglass from water infiltration.  The resin also breaks down, creating an acid and accelerating the process.  This is what is happening in a blister.   So fibreglass is not brittle at all, if it is done right, and then protected so it is preserved.   Yes, fibreglass sailboats, even on solid layup ones, the manufacturers glass the interior pieces in, the sides of cabinets and stuff.  This creates a local stiff spot versus inward movement.  (If one has two things in parallel, one very stiff, and one less so, and load the two together, the stiff one will take all the load, even if the other one is stronger.)   Before the hull can deflect and load, the interiors connections to the hull often reach failure stresses first and fail away from the hull.  Yes, this damage can be very difficult to see and fix. The Hallbery Rassy and Hunter are both cored hulls:http://www.hallberg-rassy.com/hull/building_a_hull.shtml  A core might be handy to provide more buoyancy even once it is holed, and require holing through two laminates to let water in, but, once the other skin over the foam is holed, water has gotten in, and, to me, it is not repairable.   Single use hulls.  Also, the inner hull skin can delaminate from the foam and this is not visible at all.   Tapping might find delaminations on the inside but then what?  Drill holes, remove water (very hard) and then inject resin?   I have a Boston Whaler I am trying to refurbish.  I am thinking it might take a decade to get the water out.  Yes, I have tried aggressive vacuum.  I may try heating the entire boat up to near the boiling point to try to get the water more mobile.  Once it gets into the "closed cell" foam, it is very difficult to get out.   So yes, steel would just be a lot easier and more certain.MattTo: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 25 May 2014 15:14:30 -0700Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Priorities   I have seen quite a few fiberglass boats after they have hit reefs.  Also a few ferro cement and metals ones.    The fiberglass boats were generally better than the ferro cement but not nearly as good as the metal boats.   Some of the metal boats took terrific poundings and dented but never holed.   These were bad conditions....fiberglass hulls would have been torn to bits.Fiberglass is not nearly as elastic as you think....think about it....glass is brittle and it is being held together with a brittle resin.  It can only bend so much.   Kevlar and other composites with more flexible epoxy resin is much, much more forgiving but how many yachts are made with that?   So normal fiberglass may deflect with a blow but if it goes too far, internal damage to the glass fibers has occurred.  The next blow causes more damage, etc.   After several cycles, it starts tearing and then it is game over.  Also, the interior bonding of the bulkheads and structures like floors which gives rigidity to the hull will often break away and may not be seen until later.   This causes flexing and can be very difficult to fix.  This happened to a friend on a Hunter 41.....the hull looked fine after all the repairs but unfortunately the flexing damage that had occurred on the reef had broken the bonding of the hull to the interior.   At sea, the hull started flexing and the keel started cracking.....the skipper ended up scuttling the boat and was lucky to survive.I saw another boat, a Hallberg Rassy after only about 1 hour on a reef in very small waves.  It had egg shell cracks all over the hull and pin hole leaks in every crack.   You could see a light shine through the hull.....it looked like a spider web.   It didn't sink and we got it off the reef but it needed extensive reconstruction that took many weeks afterwards.   A steel boat would have only needed a paint job. |